So for our next presentation, we have Oliver from IBM, who is the principal research scientist from IBM. And we have Apishak, a senior software engineer from IBM, to give us the next presentation. Thank you. Thank you all for being here. I think I've learned a lot today, but I already find the day that has been a bit long. So thank you for sticking around this for our talk and for the lightning talk afterwards. So my name is Olivier Tardieu. Today I'm joined by Apishak Malvankar, who is a senior software engineer and a tech lead on this project. And we want to tell you a little bit about the platform, the software platform we've been developing at IBM Research to train large models. So we've heard a lot about large language models already today, so that's good. I don't have to repeat too much. Just want maybe to point out on this slide that we like to call them foundation models because it's not just about language. The principles and techniques, the tools that have made these large language models very popular, they are applicable to many other modalities. And at IBM Research, we've been looking at other such things. So in particular, we've been, for instance, teaming with NASA to build geospatial models, models that will help predict flooding, fires, think about natural disasters, environment-related things with the same kind of tools and techniques again. And the one thing that all of these models, as you know, have in common, and they are very large, right? Anywhere between hundreds, millions of parameters to maybe 10 billion or even more. 10 billion or even more, yes. So that means a lot of computers need very serious hardware to train these things, but also very robust software stack to manage all of that. So briefly, just a quick picture of the hardware, because people always have questions about this. So in IBM Research, we've been building the next generation of cloud-native AI supercomputers. So the keyword here, of course, is cloud-native, which means different things. The first obvious one is running on Kubernetes or, in our case, on OpenShift. But it's more than that. It means also being able to scale from very small systems to very large key systems to actually dynamically scale as we are running and so on. And in research, we've been, in particular, pushing the limits on how large we can get Kubernetes, right? How many hundreds of nodes, growing clusters like that. But what we really want at the end of the day is the ability to either pool a large number of nodes in large clusters, or maybe rapidly switch configuration, divide that into many small clusters if that's more adequate for what we want to do with them. We've also heard, for instance, from Branii earlier today, some numbers about the cost of virtualization, the cost of Kubernetes, and so on. And we concur. We believe we can do that with very low overhead. So this is, for instance, a screen capture of a dashboard that we built from this cluster, sometimes early this year, where we were ramping up and starting to deploy our software stack on these systems. And at the time, there were about 1,200 A100 GPUs in the system. And the important point, and the whole thing we're going to talk about today is we want this system to be fully utilized. The number of idle GPUs needs to be really, really low for everybody to be happy. So now when we talk about these systems, OK, there's a hardware. But the next question is, what's the software for this? And if we want to build good software for this, we have to start with user requirements. And obviously, no matter the users, there are a few things that are going to transcend every user category. We want performance, performance, performance, of course. We want people want to know what's going on with the system, so we want observability. But beyond that, we have to look a little bit more carefully. So the obvious first class of users of these systems are the data scientists, the AI experts that are actually using the systems to do what it's supposed to do, which is to train or validate, et cetera, large models. And they have requirements such as using the framework of their choice. Maybe they do the actual pre-training of the models using PyTorch. But for data preparation, they want to use Ray. And what they really want is to just be able to submit jobs to these systems and forget about them in the sense that the system will take care of them, will babysit the jobs. Maybe the job will run for weeks. Maybe the jobs will start tomorrow. The jobs will just run when the time is right and the system, as much as possible, should take care of all the small things that can happen when you run the job, like a node crashing or 2.0.3, or a GPU, or a PCI link, et cetera. We'll talk about this more. First category, and really the main characteristics of the users is no matter what we want, they are experts. They are not Kubernetes experts. And frankly, they're making a lot more money being AI experts than Kubernetes experts. So it's not going to change. The second category of users is admin, necessarily the people that are there to keep the system running. And what they want is the maximum flexibility and the minimum effort. What they also are is they live and breathe Kubernetes. So they want to see the system through the Kubernetes lens, because that's what I understand. And finally, of course, we have executive accountants never to forget. So people were there to decide what's this important, what's going to run on one day, what are the quotas, what are the priorities, and so on. Want to make sure that the money that is spent on this system is actually giving us a return on investment. So utilization is high. We can scale on demand, and so on and so forth. So in order to serve all these category of users, we've been building a stack in open source. So all we're going to talk about is actually part of this community called Open Data Hub. At the top, and we'll, again, describe this in more detail in a minute, we have the ML expert facing part of the stack, which is essentially Jupyter, notebook, Python that lets you describe, implement jobs, run them, and so on. At the bottom, we have Kubernetes, or in our case, OpenShift. And in the middle, we have the meat of the talk for today, which is the workload management system consisting of a mechanism to batch or deal with these batch jobs and queue them and run them and repair them if necessary, and also the matching component for cluster autoscaling. So before I let Abhishek dive into the stack, I just want to point out that this is, of course, only a small piece of the big puzzle that is bringing AI to the enterprise. On training and validation, to start with, even just look at creating and using a model is just one part of it. But once we have trained and validated models, then we have to fine-tune them, then we have to serve them, we have to run them. So we're also working on that. And again, the AI piece is just one piece of the puzzle data. We've already said this multiple times. It's really critical to this process, and governance as well. How do we traceability, and so on. So of course, IBM Redats have products, services in this space that we're building that are building on top of the stack we're going to talk about today. I'm not going to talk about this in this talk, but please come to see our booth, the IBM booth, the Redat booth, and we can fill you in with the details. Thanks. I'll be sure. Thank you, Olivier. Hopefully, everyone can hear me. We are now going to learn about the different ingredients of the stack, and then have a view of the whole recipe. Let's learn about the first ingredient of the stack, a codeflare SDK. It's a simple Python interface, typically catered to researchers, ML engineers, and data scientists for interfacing with the stack using Jupyter Notebooks or CLI. These users can submit and create clusters and submit jobs on the created clusters using codeflare SDK. Few notable APIs of the SDK is the cluster config object. The cluster config object provides the ability to the users to up the cluster, view details of the cluster, and finally interact with the spawn clusters by submitting jobs, viewing their statuses and logs, and finally performing code operations. Before we move on to other ingredients of the stack, let's try to understand the difference between dispatching and scheduling from the stack lens. When a user submits a workload, aka custom resource, it lands inside the MCAT queue, as shown in the picture. At some point in time, the workload gets sent to the respective controller to spawn one or more pods. The process of sending workload to the controller is dispatching. Once the controller creates pods, they rely on the scheduler to bind such pods to the nodes. This process is called scheduling. Since we typically deal with gang, there should be gang scheduled with packing enabled on the target cluster. Now that we understand queuing and dispatching, let's move on to the second ingredient of the stack. MCAT, or multi-cluster app dispatcher, provides batch computing capabilities on multiple Kubernetes or OpenShift clusters. It dispatches app wrappers when aggregated resources are available, thereby guaranteeing workload execution and just-in-time pod creation. All this is done with zero code changes on the target operator. It provides features such as bring your own scheduler. It supports any upstream Kubernetes scheduler. It supports features like bring your own framework. So you can bring Spark, Flink, PyTorch, Ray, TensorFlow workloads. It also provides standard batch computing features such as priority, preemption, and quota management, which we'll learn shortly. It provides fault tolerance to any compute Kubernetes object. Let's learn a bit more about bring your own framework capability of MCAT. This is possible with the help of app wrapper CRD. We see a few notable sections of the app wrapper CRD that is used in the stack. First, we see the resource version and the name. In the metadata section, we see quota trees that are supported by a label, which we'll learn shortly. Later, we also see priorities supported in the spec section. These are integer priorities. And also, we support fault tolerance in the scheduling spec standard. The bring your own framework capability is supported by generic items. It has the ability to wrap or simply append any custom resource that you want, and it gets queued inside the MCAT queue. All this happens with zero code changes on the target operator. Let's talk a bit about fault tolerance. Fault tolerance is needed for various reasons. GPUs fail very often at scale. There are degraded PCI links, which slows down the entire training at scale. Stuck pods, due to VM or node failures, also happen. If nothing, there are user errors that definitely happens at scale. Scheduling spec stanza in app wrapper provides the capability to monitor and maintain the state of the gang. It also has the ability to customize time out for the gangs that are submitted by the user. If the above features are enabled, then MCAT can recue gang automatically during failures with the ability to force terminate stuck pods. To summarize, MCAT can detect nodes that are added, removed, or failed by nannying gangs of pods. Now let's move on to the quota management feature or hierarchical quota management feature of MCAT. Let's try to understand this with the below borrowing example. Consider a simple quota tree with root that has all the cluster resources and leaf nodes have respective quotas. When a user submits app wrapper 1 with the below resource requirements to team B, we can see that team B does not have enough quota to satisfy the resource requirement of app wrapper 1. When this happens, since there are no other jobs running inside the cluster, MCAT automatically borrows quota from team A and allows the app wrapper 1 to run. This is really important if you want to increase the cluster utilization when there are idle resources in the cluster. At some point in time, a user submits app wrapper 2, which is now part of team A. As we can see, team A, the resource requirements of app wrapper 2 are well within team A's quota. But team A has been sharing its quota with team B. MCAT realizes that, and as a part of fair share mechanism, MCAT would preempt app wrapper 1 and allow app wrapper 2 to run. When MCAT does quota and resource check, both to dispatch an app wrapper. If the resource check fails, then MCAT would trigger instant scaling, which we'll learn a bit more shortly. But from our experience, quota may not be always physical resources. For instance, some workload may need tokens or licenses to be shared amongst users. To enable this use case, MCAT supports quota forest evaluation, meaning MCAT can evaluate multiple quota trees before an app wrapper is dispatched. Let's talk a bit about bring your own scheduler capability. Different teams in Vela Supercomputer run different types of workloads. Even OpenShift prefers running OpenShift default scheduler to bind system pods. Hence, in Vela Supercomputer, for training workloads, we use core scheduler with packing a GPU dimension to avoid fragmentation at dispatch time and potentially increase utilization. We covered a lot of internal features. Now let's visit UI aspect of MCAT. MCAT has dashboard that supports different personas. It shows aggregate cluster utilization from admin persona and also shows app wrapper statuses from user persona. Let's move on to the next ingredient in our recipe, which is the Node Autoscaler called Instascale. If an app wrapper is pending inside MCAT Q due to insufficient resources, then Instascale picks up such app wrappers to get gang of resources needed to run app wrappers. Acquiring gang resources could be time consuming. Hence, we use reuse policies to transfer resources acquired for previous workloads to the next workload. It has the capability to scale down to zero and works on wide variety of OpenShift flavors. Finally, let's see the entire recipe with all the ingredients added. Users would use codeflare SDK to create and interact with the cluster through Jupyter Notebooks or CLI. These workloads are then queued in MCAT as app wrappers. If aggregated resources are available in the cluster, then such app wrappers are dispatched. Or pending app wrappers would knock the doors of Instascale controller. Instascale controller would acquire gang of resources and add it to the cluster, and at later point in time would dispatch the pending app wrapper to the cluster. Once the app wrappers are dispatched, respective controller then spawns pods, which get binded by the scheduler. In our use case, we use co-scheduler with packing. Later, user starts interacting with the spawn workload. And finally, when done, the cluster could be destroyed with code operations supported by the SDK. Hope you learned a little bit more about all the ingredients of the stack. I'll now pass on to Olivia. Thanks, Abhishek. So to recap what we've seen today, we've talked about MCAT, we've talked about Instascale. There are dispatching systems through dealing with large distributed workloads, such as the one we find in AI training. One of the key characteristics there is we're looking at jobs that use a large number of GPUs, therefore a very large number of nodes, hundreds of nodes typically on the cluster, and therefore a large number of pods, because we have one pod at least running on each node. What that led to is a design decision in MCAT that we cannot just queue pods or scale based on pods, because if we want to queue 10 different jobs, that's 1,000 pods. If we want to queue 100 different jobs, that's 10,000 pods. Everything in MCAT, everything in Instascale is designed to work with custom resource definitions, like PyTor jobs, Ray jobs, Badge jobs, you name it. The second design decision that Abhishek also insisted on is we wanted this to be completely extensible in the sense that Kubernetes is popular to a large degree because it's extensible. So everybody has its own, lots of companies have their own operators, their own resources, and so on. So we wanted MCAT out of the box to work with any such things without requiring any changes of any kind. So if you have your own operator, if you have your own resource type, your own kind of Kubernetes, it already works with MCAT, there's nothing to do there. And Instascale, in the same way, can make scaling decisions, not just based on the pods that are pending, but on everything that is in the queue, right? So now, that's what we talked about today. The elephant in the room is what we didn't talk about today, which is MCAT stands for multi-cluster abdispatcher, right? So in fact, MCAT started as a multi-cluster thing in contrast with maybe some of the other projects we've talked about today, where we're evolving from single cluster to multi-cluster, we kind of did the reverse in MCAT, which we started with the multi-cluster use case, that's where we came from. Eventually, for instance, in training, we realized that the single cluster case was also really important. And so in the last couple of years, at least we've put the focus on that. But MCAT still is a multi-cluster abdispatcher. It can manage a pool of cluster, a dynamic pool of cluster, you can add and remove clusters, it can monitor, resource and make decisions about quotas and resource about different clusters. And it can make scheduling decisions based on resource availability, right? So now a little bit about our roadmap, there's a lot of things we want to do, again, similar to things you've heard today, right? Today, MCAT is only about, or MCAT, like many systems, thinks about GPUs as units, right? A GPU goes through this job or that job or that job. But we know, for instance, with NVIDIA, with NPS, with me, with DRA, that there are a lot of mechanisms coming up about dividing GPUs and being smart about, again, sharing GPUs between different jobs in various ways. So that's obviously something we're working on and want to support. One important dimension of a dispatching system is in which order do we dispatch job? When do we dispatch job? That's something, MCAT provides a foundation for this, and that's something we're building on to do new interesting things. Again, we've heard already today about the costs to the planet for training large models and doing AI. So we're working on various policies there and extensions, for instance, to do training or to do batch jobs in general, I should say, that are more power efficient or that use greener energies, right? That chooses clusters depending on the time of the day and so on and so forth. Finally, when it comes to cluster auto-scaling, cluster auto-scaling in general has been a challenge because this is not quite just a problem about the cluster, this is a problem about what's hosting the cluster, what provider, what technology is being used, right? So cluster auto-scaling has been kind of a, different from different cloud providers and so on. So there's, and in star scale as it exists today is primarily focused on open shift, but there's an effort in the community to kind of standardize that, to make it much more portable across providers, across kinds of managed clusters and so on. And so we're definitely also very interested in that effort and bringing that effort to MCAD and in star scale. So as I said before, everything we discussed today is open source, we have a code for our community, you know, GitHub, Slack here. Please join us, please let us know what you think. I also want to point out that later this week we're going to have another talk that is going to, you know, tell you more about MCAD. This particular talk is actually about how to do performance scaling, performance testing at scale, simulating large clusters, and but we'll use MCAD as the running example. So please come join us and watch Sarah's and Vishak's talk on Wednesday. And I think that's it for today. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for the great talk. I think we have time for one question. I think it showed up at the right time. Yeah, I think so. I was just gonna ask, do you find it easy for the ML engineers or the data scientists to plan resources when they're going to write the requests? So, you have to repeat the question. Yeah, sorry, so the question is, is it easy for engineer to plan resources? So the real answer to that is something I could have added to the roadmap is we're looking at elasticity and all kinds, elasticities, there's job elasticities, there's cluster elasticities, quota elasticities, so it's kind of a holistic question. So we do, I mean, what AI experts think in terms of this number of GPUs and maybe number of nodes, right? So that's the input essentially to our system and that's what we work with. And that's, I think, works well enough, right? Where they need help is adjusting CPU and memory and so on, but we can work that from the request for the GPUs essentially. Typically, I mean, the workloads that researchers submit in our facility, they are all gangs and gangs have this notion of all or none, right? They need all the resources at once to start. So they have a good understanding of the scale of their model and the kind of gang resources they need to start their computation. So at least internally, our users and model trainers, externally, I think, I believe, they know what kind of resources they need in a priori before submitting a job. And you can always shape that, right? At some point, you put some heuristic to say, I think it's this type of thing, more or less. Yeah. I had one more question, but it's okay. Yeah, sure, go ahead. I saw on one side you're using Ray for training and using K-Serve or Serving. Do you have any thoughts on K-Serve versus Ray-Serve? Or did you not, have you not explored Ray-Serve yet? So we've explored Ray-Serve initially. So we worked with any scale for a while, actually, on trying to bridge the two together. I think this is still an ongoing discussion. We've had requirements in terms of, you know, size of collections of models, for instance, in the all-size-of-q-tune collections of models, you know, we have things where we have hundreds of thousands of models in our collections, right? So Ray-Serve wasn't designed to handle that in the first place, but we worked with any scale to a degree to reduce, you know, to improve on different things, right? So I think that's an ongoing, that's an ongoing effort, yes. Got it. Thank you. Great job. Thank you.


Hello, hello, YouTube chat. Let's see how this goes. Making sure I've got my music here. But it doesn't get blotted out by my own voice, because that would be awkward. Live 22 seconds. Excellent. All systems are go. Alright, the last thing I want right now is for myself to be coming out here. Let's mute that. Let's turn back on the music I had in the background. And hello, Site 42 Red Division. Dr. Sherman here. We are out on a stakeout, and we are killing time until our subject comes by. And so, with about a half hour to kill, I'm here to answer your staff questions. Have you got any questions about any SCP articles, any SCP shower thoughts, hypotheticals? I've got my chat back here in the bottom. It looks like it's rushing very quickly by. I'm also trying to check the chat on my temp pad as well. But my, my, does this fly back? Wow, how do I slow-mode this so I can see you all? My word. While I'm trying to figure out how these settings work, make sure to like the stream. Top chat, live chat. Super chat. No visible spam. That's fine. Will the tree ever scream? Obviously the tree will scream. It's just a matter of time. Is Santa an SCP? There are, gosh darn, multiple Santa Claus SCPs, including one where he got in a very large battle with Dr. Clef. Yeah, they weren't very friendly. Alright, so the iPad chat goes just as fast as this chat, so that's not going to help me any. So I will just pull up the SCP documents in case you guys have any questions about particular documents I don't know about. If you're a member, let me see some of those Dr. Sherman emojis in the chat, because this is the first time I've gone live since we've activated Channel Membership Cell over here. Oh my gosh, it's almost time for SCP Spooky Dash J. Oh wait, no, it's actually almost time for the other SCP that just keeps yelling, it's almost Halloween. Which SCP is that? I highly suggest you all read that one. Google. SCP, it's almost Halloween. Not SCO, don't auto-correct me. Algorithm, I know what I meant. Nope, that's not the right SCP. I'll have to look that up later. Alright, so checking the chat for questions. Obviously, if I see members or super chats, I will see those more likely. Let me make sure I've got this over in my studio as well. There we go. How do you make an SCP? Alright, so let's talk about this from two different directions. Oh wait, can I press that? Please tell me that I can see those somehow. I can make a super chat, I see Dono, thank you for the $2 Dono, whoever that was. I really wish that YouTube gave me a way to see those better. I wonder if I can see them in YouTube Studio. In the meantime, how do you make an SCP? Out of universe. Obviously, you must become a member of the SCP Wiki. Now, to become a member of the SCP Wiki, you must become a member of Wikidot. Oh, what is 173's excretion made of? And could it be used as biofuel? Oh, um, well we know what it's made of. It's made of brown and red excretions. We weren't being very obtuse with that. And so if you can make biofuel of YouTube, don't get mad at me. Blood and fecal matter, then yes, maybe you can make a biofuel out of it. But I'm not familiar with any biofuels, that's not my department. Thank you for the $5. Is that Euro? Super Chat. That does make it easier to see the questions, yes. Good to know. That's how we pop them up. In the meantime, making an SCP. You have to become a member of Wikidot. Then you have to join the SCP Wiki. Now, part of the tricky part about joining SCP and Wikidot in general is that there's a glitch on the website, because Wikidot is old. And so if you want to join the SCP Wiki, if your email is from Hotmail or if it has any numbers in it, then it doesn't work. Wikidot doesn't accept number emails or Hotmail emails. So you're going to need another email. Oh, how about that 100 likes good work chat? We're only halfway to the 243 people who are currently in the chat. Once you become a Wikidot member and then an SCP Wiki member, that's when you start writing. And here's the part everyone gets wrong, is you need to write a story that very specifically appeals to the people on the Wiki who can vote for it and therefore make it stay. A big problem is that people just write for themselves. They don't write for an audience. And when you want to write, yes, it's important to write what you know and write what you like, but it's also important to write for an audience because the voting audience are the ones who decide if your article stays up. Oh, we're getting some good questions now in the super chats. What is SCP 076 and how many times does 096 breach containment? 076 is Able, I believe, very guy with vorpal blades and a very violent person. Immortal comes back every time you offer him. So we just put him back in his box and he comes back out. Join a mobile task force for a while. The other one 096 has breached containment multiple times. It's very, very frustrating to put him back in the box. We have to have a lot of black bags on hand. Why isn't Siren Head an SCP? Siren Head is not an SCP. Due to the rules of the SCP Wiki, you cannot make an SCP out of something that is already existent. So Siren Head was created by wonderful horror artist Trevor Henderson and love Trevor's stuff. Siren Head is its own thing that grew up outside of SCP, so we will not take it and make it into an SCP. Now, it is possible to write something inspired by it, Siren Head, but due to copyright infringement, we wouldn't take someone else's original work and put it on the Wiki. So even though Siren Head is anomalous and is very cryptid-like, which is what a lot of SCPs can be, it's not technically legally an SCP. Great question, though. That confuses a lot of people. It can be anomalous and still not an SCP. It's not an SCP unless it's on the SCP Wiki. Also, thank you to the last two users for their first Super Chat. That includes you, Landon's Land, and I'm sorry I missed the name of the other one. Where to find SCP 1004, Carter Gray? Well, Carter, let me check what SCP 1004 is. Thank you for the $10 don't know in the meantime. Let me see what SCP 1004 is to see if I can answer that question for you. And while I'm looking that up, I will answer the previous question of how to make an SCP. In the SCP universe, there are plenty of groups of interest that make SCPs. Dr. Wondertainment makes anomalous toys, although we don't necessarily know how. The factory makes multiple anomalies, and we've done a lot of research into the factory. Both are we cool yet? Who makes anomalous art? That usually hurts people. And gamers against weed who make anomalous memes that they don't mean to harm people, but they often do harm people. There are a lot of different ways to make an anomaly. Much to our, at the foundations, chagrin. So, oh no, why does it say adult content? What? SCP 1004 is factory prawn. Okay, so I'm not going to tell you where to find that. We put it in the box for a reason. For a reason.  Ooh, this is long. Do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. Dr. Jaden Time. Thank you for your first super chat. My name is Dr. Time. I am from the universe Jade Walker. I wish to know more of this universe's SCP foundation and its premise. It is very similar to our job here at Abbott Inc. Well, welcome to our foundation live chat. Keep asking questions, or keep listening to other people ask questions. You're sure to learn a lot. Also, make sure to go through our archives because we have hundreds of SCP documents written red from the wiki. We have shorts and memes about even more of them. So, enjoy your time in our archives. The Site 42 archives are a wonderful place to learn more about the SCP foundation in a multimedia sense. Polar Bear William. Thank you for your first super chat. Welcome to the stream. If the SCP foundation cooperates with the countries they build facilities in, examples America, Canada, then why is the GOC a UN force? Wonderful question. We may cooperate with the countries we base in from time to time, but we are not officially affiliated with any nation. We are a private secret organization. We may have agents in different governments giving us intel, but a great example is the unusual incidence unit of the FBI. The FBI's unusual incidence unit is told that if the foundation shows up on the scene, just don't bother them because they have more intel and better tech and more funding than we do. So, if the foundation shows up to a scene, it'll let them do their work. There's also GRU Division P, which is Russia's governmental SCP foundation. There's also, as you said, the Global Occult Coalition, which is the UN's version of the foundation, but it's run by the UN.  Now, probably our front companies do, but we probably don't pay taxes because we are that secret. We don't answer to the government. Moving on. Marshall, thank you for the $5 Canadian. What's the foundation's stance on aperture science and cave Johnson's stance on science? We do what we want because we can. Well, the foundation is a scientific research organization. So, yes, we do not destroy anomalies like the GOC does because we want to, A, protect the world from the anomalous, make sure that they think everything's normal, but also we make sure that we study them so we can use them for future anomalous containment. The blueish turtle does when day breaks ever end who or why stops it. Now, to my knowledge, there is no end to when day breaks. When the sun turns us all into goo, that's game over, man. But I knew that there's a lot of stories in the canon of SCP. There's over 15,000 stories on the American Wiki alone, on the English Wiki alone, let alone the other languages. So I'm sure someone has gone into what it's like to survive in the day breaks ending, what it's like to, what brings it to an end. I think I read a story once where Salsasaur stops when day breaks, but I can't remember. So that is a question that should be kept up on. And by the way, I've just discovered for the chats edification that when you send a Super Chat, if it is $5 or more, it arrives on the bottom where I can click it and read it for a while. But if it's less than that, if it's a blue one, it just goes by in the chat really fast. So if there's any that I've missed, I apologize. And if you're trying to do a Super Chat so I can see it, $5 or more shows up at the bottom where I can do it. We're in this first Site 42 vertical livestream together learning what to do. Someone just tried to break into my stakeout position, but I was able to shoo them off. Who are my favorite SCPs? I'm happy to tell you. I have a couple of favorite SCPs for instance. When it comes to surreal horror crazy stuff, SCP 3999. It's very long. It's very dramatic. I have a reading of it on the channel. It is very out there and weird, but it's a great story, very well crafted. SCP 304Z SCP 3043 which is the first of many articles starring Murphy Law, hard-boiled SCP detective. That is fantastic. As a fun article, it turns the whole article into a film noir script. Highly suggest listening to my archive of those stories as well because we've got a couple of them read and we went all out with sound effects and music. Very fun articles. Taking a break from my favorite SCPs for a super chat. Dr. Jayden Time. What would happen if the SCP shagae was put into the infinite Ikea and then viewed a picture outside of the Ikea? So, here's the deal.  It does not...  So with that in mind, if you were in another universe I assume that would be the same and that includes the infinite Ikea. Now we know the infinite Ikea's doors move but we also know SCP 096 can find you wherever you are. I assume... No, we're not testing this. We're never testing this. That was a terrible idea to test this. But my hypothesis is that SCP 096 would know where you are and it would be able to trace you to the door of the Ikea and get out and murk you. Now, if the door moves around which we know it does, then it might take a little longer for 096 to get to the door but it's only a matter of time. So, you're going to get gone. That's why we do not put anomalies in the infinite Ikea for storage because they will break out and that is bad. It's not very secure or contained or protected of it at that point. More of my favorite SCPs. My favorite joke SCP is SCP 008-J which is Jeff. Jeff is just a cool dude who shows up at foundation sites by accident. When we try and capture him, he accidentally gets away and he's best friends with Commander Price. Peptok Guy. Oh, very nice with Peptok Guy. Hey, I'd like you to send you something for the channel. Do you own a P.O. Box? Also, I'm working on an SCP of my own. There's a green light post on it from last year called I Understand if you get the chance to check it out. The P.O. Box. It is listed on the TikTok and after I'm done with this stream, I will list it in our Beacons Link. So keep an eye out on that after we get off stream. I will put that in the Beacons Link so people can get to it. Cirrus asks, can the flesh that hates be defeated by 096? And thank you for your first super chat, Cirrus. So it depends on how much of the flesh there is. We know that 096 is pretty undefeatable. 096 is pretty indestructible. But that was like tank rounds, that was a lot of fire. But I don't think it, we know that the flesh can be torn off it. So I think with enough damage it can be defeated. I don't know what its healing factor is. But that depends on how many flesh masses there are. Because we know the flesh masses are not immortal. So it depends on how many show up. Bonkie Mcnoggin, thank you for your don't know, even without a question. Much appreciated. That will go toward keeping containment of 096 since all these people seem to want to get it out. We got to make sure it's highly secured. Also, good luck on, sorry, I got back to pep talk guy real quick because I only answered half your question. Working on an SCP of your own, good luck with working on that. Writing an SCP is not very easy, but it is a good thing for you to work on. It's a skill that you build. Now, I got very lucky when I started writing SCPs. I had already been writing theater scripts and running D&D campaigns. So I had written stories before, but you got to practice writing. It's not something you do on your first time unless you had a lot of experience beforehand. Now, with that in mind, what I want you to keep in hand is that while I might not have time to go check out your green light because I have a million things to do all the time running this site, what you do want to do is you want to make friends with a lot of people in the SCP community. You want to hang out in SCP discord servers. You want to hang out in the IRC chat and you want to make friends and trade critique with them. You want to show them your story and I'll read yours and I'll tell you what I like and I'll tell you what you don't like. Don't take dislikes personally. We all need to get critique to grow. But from that point, you keep getting better and better and your story gets better and better and then eventually you get an idea that gets through the green light, then you write it, and you get through the critique process, then you have a successful article. Also, just take classes on writing. Not sponsored. Probably Skillshare is good. But the more creative writing you get through, the more you kind of understand the rules that will get your article done. I've got, I think it's now seven or eight articles on the site. You can check out my author's page, the sherm site 42. But at the end of the day, more practice makes more perfect. I see ghosts. Thank you for your first super chat for 499 pounds. Is there a site in Scotland? And if so, what site would it be? So here's something I want you to check out. Anytime I need to find something on the SCP Wiki, all I do is I Google SCP plus whatever I want to find out. Like when I want to find out which SCPs are Santa related, I type in SCP Santa Claus or SCP Halloween if I want to find Halloween SCPs. You type in SCP Scotland and you'll find a bunch of SCPs that are either contained in Scotland or Scottish containment sites. Use that tip. It helps you get a lot of stuff done on the SCP Wiki. Uh, search engines are your friend there. Do, do, do. Uh, where was I? So more of my favorite SCPs. I did 3999 3043 008-J Let's talk about 5031 not yet another murder, yet another murder monster who is the chef monster. Oh my God, he's so cute. He's so cute, we taught him how to speak, we taught him how to play piano, and we made him a master chef. He's the sweetest little guy who could murder you if you didn't treat him right. It's a great subversion of how we used to contain things very meanly. And then we stopped doing that and we learned what ethical containment procedures were.  What a shock foundation learned something did ya? Uh, I have 6 total favorite SCPs, so that was number 4. Here's number 5. Number 5 is SCP 5175. SCP 5175 is Death Knife. And it's the story of a weeaboo security guard getting a knife with the contained spirit of a samurai that banishes your soul to the nether dimension and how the foundation has to train him to be the wielder of the Death Knife. It's an amazingly funny story. It's so good. And finally, SCP 532-0 is the last on my favorite SCPs list. And that is the longest fish, that goes on forever. And that is a friend of the channel Raddiger SCP about a really boring anomaly and a really boring day at work at the foundation. So, hilarious SCP. They actually scare main command in thinking they become a cult because they're joking around with the We are the church of the fish that just goes on forever. Praise the long fish may we find the tail leave snacks on top of the microwave as a donation to his blessing. So those are my six favorite SCPs 3999-3043-008-J 5031-5175 and 532-0 Of course, my favorite SCPs can't be mine because I wrote them. They're not fair, but also all of my SCPs are my babies, so I love them and go read them too. Ratatouille Ripall, thank you for your first don't know. From what I've heard, there is a bunch of SCPs covering up the real SCP-001. What is the real main one? Are the ones covering it up real? And also why do they need to cover that SCP up? So, out of universe, the idea is that we didn't want one person to have the honor of having SCP-001, so we let everybody write their own 001. Before this runs away, better not to have SCP-001 on break. You got it. Everyone thank you for your first don't know. Continuing on. See, I'm trying to get the ones that fly by. It's just the chat is so fast.  So, even I am not a high enough classification level to know what the real 001 is. And so with that in mind, I have a favorite. My favorite 001 is actually Lily's proposal. The world's gone beautiful. And it's very short, but it's just a darling, wonderful, if there isn't a real SCP-001, I hope it's that one. Because that's nice for us compared to what else might happen. And obviously we cover it up because it's too terrifying. Very nice. Ethan, I know you're in the chat. Oh, Zidraedron. Zidraedron? Zai- I've never said your name out loud. Stop chat. Stop, stop, stop. Zi-a-r-den. Thank you for being a member and welcome to the chat. How much do you love SCP-999? Just a whole bunch.  He's just a good little guy. Purple light, I am glad. You love our channel. We're doing our best. Once we get into the next year 2024, we're going to be making some bigger and better things as the channel keeps skyrocketing. I'm looking very forward to our little independent film studio. I'm even starting to score some what's the phrase I'm looking for new actors out here in San Francisco who can help with the cause. Suni, thank you for coming with Level 1 Researcher. Welcome to channel membership at Site 42's Red Division. And by the way when you follow Site 42 we don't have YouTube, TikTok, and Twitter. We have Site 42 Red Division, which is YouTube, Site 42 Blue Division, which is Twitter. I'm not calling it X, it's Twitter. And Site 42 Black Division, which is TikTok. That's so the algorithms don't get mad when you mention other platforms because they get really butthurt about that. What if you put 6670 inside of the Infinite Ikea? We don't put things in the Infinite Ikea either way. Zyardrin, thank you for your hashtag respect. We're doing our best with the content both on the long form and the short form. I know we are mostly known for our short form skits, but the film content is going to be coming with a vengeance next year. I just happened to over-commit at the end of this year joining a play. We're doing Shakespeare here in San Francisco. If you're in San Francisco come see a German performing in Much a Do-About Nothing at the Victoria Theatre in San Francisco in November this year. But if you are unable to do that, if you go to the Beacons link in the description, you can make a donation to the Theatre Company and you'll get a VOD of the play after we perform it, so you can still see it if you're out of town. But obviously theatre is better in person, so if you can come, come. But why doesn't SB 3000 run into any other nautical phenomena? The things all the time, we have to amnesticize so many people because of SB 3000 and its infinite length, which is good that it makes SCP amnestics, so that's convenient for us. Also, I'm surprised it's not tied into naut with SB 5320, the other infinitely long fish. I wonder if they're friends. Pep Talk Guy, in my theory for the SCP 001 proposals are that they're always, they're ways of documenting how the foundation of a given universe started and ended. Also explains why some of the universes might have different SCPs. Ooh, I like that as a theory that these could be the SCP 001s of different universes. That's pretty cool. Kiki, thank you for your donos. We appreciate it. I enjoy your acting. Very appreciated. I'm doing my best. You inspire me to actually be an actor. Congratulations! The more people who make art do performance, the better I feel about the world, because we need artists. We need more art. We need it spread around. I think SCP is a great way because of its creative commons to allow everyone to participate fairly without getting copyright infringement and dropped out. It allows people to find a platform quickly to find an audience quickly to get their work out there. So it's great for that. So I'm very proud to inspire anyone to get into content creation, to get into writing, to get into acting, art, drawing. I can't draw, but everybody should draw. This is about as good as I am with a pen. I can't draw with it. I can spin it, though. The chat goes so fast. My SCP phase is coming back. Good. Good. What if we put SCP 173 in the water? Well, Lanka and Derpy, thank you for your first dono. If you put it in water, it will hit you, but it will also cause a wave. It it's still going to snap your neck. SAV 173 always chooses violence. I do art, but I don't think it's good enough for official stuff. Well, you keep making art and you get better at it as well as you can. So that's the best thing you can do is keep doing it. When I started, I was terrible and I kept making and I got better and better. If you go to my early, early TikTok compilations, you will see some really bad stuff. It's always better as you keep doing. So keep doing, keep doing. Is SCP 049 polite to fellow doctors? Well, it's polite unless you, A, have the pestilence and it's not very polite at all, even though we don't know what the pestilence is, I don't think it actually exists.  But that's what we do. I'm trying to read the chat. Super chat. I can read that easier. Headed to dinner before I go, what non-anomalous thing would you put into 918 and on what setting? Interesting. I think you mean 914, the machine that makes things, the clockworks, that makes things bad or good. Before, while I think about that, containing SCP-682 and 148, 148 just keeps making things bigger, doesn't it? And so, no, I think it's a terrible idea because it would just keep expanding the area that it's in and it would go encroach on other areas. So, no, we don't want that. Or is 148 casting gets metallic substance, total mass, botanium, platinum and iridium? Is it? Oh, well, no, we don't want that because it messes with the staff around it. And we don't want it to adapt to it either. What non-anomalous thing? I would put my pen. I'd put my pen in 914 on very fine. And then I would spin it so fast. I would spin my pen so fast. We're not going to put 184 in 3008. It's already infinite. It doesn't need to be more infinite. What is infinity times infinity? It's unnecessary is what it is. What SCP should I draw? Please give me something to draw. I'm going to tell you to draw art of SCP 008-J hanging out with Murphy Law. Jeff in a Murphy Law setting. There you go. Art suggestions. To those who are asking about Ultra Kill, I am unfamiliar with I think it's a game, maybe a show? I have no idea. So I cannot offer any insight into Ultra Kill. What I can tell you is that coming next year when this play is done that I'm doing the Shakespeare show, I am going to have a lot more time to start writing SCP if X is not an SCP, but if it were concepts again. So I'm looking forward to getting into more containment procedures for non-SCP entities as if the SCP were going after them. I still have like seven Five Nights at Freddy's games to contain. We got to go back after some more cryptids. A lot of things to cover. A nice mustache. Well, thank you kindly. That's helping me stay incognito on this stakeout. Two, what if we shove SCP 953 and or the iPods into 914? It doesn't take living matter. So neither of those the iPods definitely wouldn't. Let me look up what 953 is. God, we're up in the seven thousands for SCP articles. It's just not possible to know them all for any one person.  So no, and second no, we are not going to strengthen the frickin kumihou. My word. Uh, oh yes.  So traumatic. I think I've got about 10 minutes more before our subject arrives and I have to get ready. So we got about 10 minutes more chat. Keep asking your questions. I'll keep answering them. Could the pestilence be a cell or an organ? So I guess every disease is made up of cells, right? I'm not a germologist. Uh, although in some universes there is sherm the germologist. So maybe he knows. Uh, oh yes. But so I doubt the pestilence is an organ. Otherwise we would have found it and it would have been very much easy to understand what it was. I have a feeling it's more complicated than that. Have you read 1762's entry and if so thoughts the dragons the dragons I need to see if there are more dragon tails not like the show dragon tails but I wonder if someone's written an article where the dragons come back or something. I got to go into series two. This is a fun fact on the SCP wiki. When you go to the wiki and you look at the different series lists where it lists all the numbers and their titles, there's a great function called tails edition and it shows you all of the tails associated with certain SCPs. So by looking at SCP 1762 there's two tails associated with it. Beasts of the old letters and second corto which is a poem I guess but that is a great way that if you want to see more of an SCP that you enjoy go check out the tails edition list to see ones that are linked to it but yes one of the saddest gosh darn SCP 1762 also thank you for being a member becoming a member today soon. Love those finger guns. Teeth did the best art on our emojis and our badges. I can't wait till people have been members for a couple of months so we start seeing the other colors and then the trophy badges which are the bronze, silver and gold finger gun sherns. Those are hilarious. Teeth did such a good job on the channel emojis. Thank you, Leon, for your don't know. The Wanderers Library has all knowledge. Is there a book containing a way to kill SCP 682? You know I bet there is. I bet those selfish jerks are holding out on us with how to destroy SCP 682 but they won't let me in. They just keep calling me a jailer kicking me back out. It's fricking rude I tells ya. Those selfish snakes. Hmm. Rude. Absolutely. Uncalled for. Wait, wait, I saw Hogslice in the chat. Who's talking about Hogslice? Hogslice come back chat. Why? What's just girly things? What's just girly things? I don't know what that is. Is that an SCP thing or a non-thing? Either way Hogslice always wins because he's Hogslice. Also, there's a great article tale. Okay, wait. I have a tale suggestion for Hogslice fans because Hogslice is an amazing SCP article. Go to SCP Hogslice. You need to read Hogslice but Hogslice is also amazing because he has a great verses tale with I forget who it is. I just remember it left me cackling when I read it. 6599 is Hogslice. No, no. I just want the tales edition. Who did Hogslice get in a fight with? Hogslice got in a fight with Bones What? Makes a friend, the bathrooms wiki the first occult flame war and the even germination. Alright, who did you make friends with?  Oh! Made got in a fight with a ghost got in an internet fight with a ghost, right? Who is that? Where are you? 6764 SCP 6599 vs SCP 6764 who is Maddie the cute ghost girl who just wants to like date you and stuff if you just like, just unalive yourself and you've become a ghost and we can totally date won't be weird or anything just go ahead, what's the deal? By the way, do not do that because Maddie will not stay with you so it's not worth it not worth it What is Detective Void's SCP number? Detective Void does not have an SCP designation outside influence and also I think they quit SCP because they wanted to make more original content they were moving on from SCP kind of like we built our audience and now we're gonna try to like pivot which not very cool to leave the community that built your fandom but what am I gonna say? I just do what I do over here at site 42 you are confused on how they contain SCP 3000 so when things are in public and they can't be put in a box all we can do is cut off access to it so we have a perimeter so that people can't get to it we do disinformation campaign so that if it gets in the news we either get it taken down or we meet people thinking that it's not true make sure you read the containment procedures for SCP 3000 again on the wiki because then you'll see it's not that complicated actually people are pretty easily fooled the foundation also has gotten pretty good at its job over time like Bigfoot, yeah SCP 1000 they are also completely uncontained but still contained there's a lot of anomalies like that you can't put everything in a box as much as I wish but yes, this is the sherm Dr. Theron Sherman of the SCP foundation site 42 division have you tested SCP-J91 oh, not that one oh, I have not tested it nor do I intend to also now unvoluntary leg crossing, jeez what are the pendulents was the bubonic plague since it fits with an SCP-049 character without the case, we would be able to detect it, but the problem is we can't so, I mean, sheesh Clef is here Dr. Sherman vs. Clef, Hawaiian shirt fashion show who gets the modeling contract listen this handsome mug, are you kidding me Clef big ol' third eye in the middle of your head no, no, you're not conventionally attractive Clef you're not even, you crate also all the weapons you can't fit all the weapons under your smock like that and expect to have the fine lines of your drapery fit well for photography no, Clef, although you do have some great shirts, we can trade you can raid the closet, you might win best shirt, but not modeling contract I mean, come on, have you seen me alright, messing with Clef enough put on the smolder my lord Dr. Sherman and Dr. Clef Hawaiian shirt party though, we have the best coconut drinks they've been drunk, they're just drinking out of coconuts because it's festive otherwise they'd get yelled at at work does Dr. Chip use SCP-420-J look we, SCP-420-J you gotta sign the the waiver, you gotta get in line it's a very popular anomaly to toy with, it's a good time is SCP-999 edible yes, but if you want to, no absolutely not not allowed not after last time would SCP-096 react if they were a helmet of SCP-148 SCP-148 again that's come up multiple times what the heck is that I saw like it was a metal or something it's not telekill, is it telekill no, go to the article I wanted you to go to please why didn't you jump? oh, you did jump it's just hidden okay, so yeah, SCP-148 is telekill I see what you're doing here so no, telekill has some properties that makes it do weird things and so we're not gonna we don't test that whether they're anomalies because it makes things weird I mean, it could possibly you know, it doesn't stop you from perceiving things it just stops you from being affected by mental things so because it's your own thing I don't think telekill would work on 096 anyways Parker, give me 113 listen, if you want to use SCP-113 for your gender reassignment, all you need to do is submit the proper forms to the foundation issued healthcare use your talk to your staff counselor on site get a psych pass get a psych allowance fill out the proper paperwork we send it psyched to site on a monthly rotation you'll get your turn you gotta go through all the proper channels just for the bureaucracy if there's one thing we love at the foundation it's containing anomalies but if there's a second thing we love it's paperwork, so do your paperwork and you'll be good but that is the end of my time I have to get ready for our subject to come into view and get put into a big white van with a nice foundation logo with a spicy crust pizza so with that welcome to our inaugural youtube chat I hope you have enjoyed yourself thank you make sure if you are not subscribed that you subscribe become a member so we can use our sweet SCP site 42 emojis in the chat and other than that be safe, stay well and secure, contain, protect I don't even know how to stop the live he's just going to mess with this for a minute you're all gonna watch me look like a doof you'll never catch me with a plague doctor suit though I hope not you shouldn't be wearing one on site it'll get you locked in a box cause you'll be confused for the other one ha, found it with 294 and 114 we're not doing anything with 294 you know what that does, goodbye


Please welcome to the stage Mr. Mark K. Uptigrove, director of the LBJ Presidential Library, documentary filmmakers and co-directors, producers of the Vietnam War, Mr. Ken Burns, and Ms. Lynn Novick. Welcome. Thank you. Ken, we've been trying to get you here for six years. I know.  I think we're going to be spending a lot of time because this project has convinced us more than ever that not only is the Johnson presidency such an important and tragic part of the story, but it's made us interested in all of that domestic agenda. And so we're now in the process of developing a series on his presidency with the Vietnam War offstage. We're delighted with that and we look forward to seeing you again. As David mentioned in his introduction, you two are among America's most preeminent storytellers. Ken, you've taken on the Civil War, you've taken on the Roosevelt's, you've taken on baseball and jazz. Why Vietnam? Lynn and I were finishing a film on the, really in the middle of a film on the history of the Second World War in the Mid-Aughts and realized that Vietnam had to be put there, that it would form a trilogy of films that we would complete first with the Civil War then with the Second World War and then in Vietnam arguably the three most important wars after the revolution that made us. But also to do it in a different kind of way where World War II had been sort of from entirely American point of view. This was going to be like the Civil War from the top down and the bottom up. And so as Lynn says, you're going to meet a lot of different people, Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, South Vietnamese, Americans of all different stripes who contribute not to the answers of the questions that Vietnam poses, but in some ways just the resounding of them. We have, as we do in all wars, and I think wars are the important subjects to study because they obviously show human beings that they're worse, but they also show them that they're very, very best. And so a great deal of the American character is revealed in our wars and what we felt particularly with Vietnam and indeed any war that within a few years it becomes encrusted with the barnacles of sentimentality and nostalgia. Happened with the Civil War, 40 years after the Civil War we couldn't tell you what happened except the mythological stuff. Certainly after the Second World War it had become the Good War. When it killed 60 million people, I don't know how you can call that the Good War. And Vietnam itself has also succumbed to this inability for us to talk about it and as Lynn said I think very presciently that we talk about ourselves meaning where we are now. And our own political, social, economic makeup right now determines in a large measure what our response to Vietnam and yet those persistent questions remain. How did it happen? How were we led in there? What was our involvement really like? What are the answers to the mechanical nitty-gritty tick-tock of the war and the larger ones? And that's what we've tried to do and Mark let me just also acknowledge that in the audience tonight is the journalist Joe Galloway who you just saw who heroically did not have to do that. He was not drafted to be there at the Aay-a-Drang or other battles that he covered and did that. And then we also, I believe Nick Utt, the photographer who took the iconic photograph of the young Vietnamese girl who was Napalm Frank Snep, a CIA operative who was witness to the fall of Saigon and very decorated Marine corporal Thomas J. Valilly are all in the audience. And Lynn and I would like to just thank them. And these grubs who started the Vietnam Memorial is also here. And after 18 hours of this, it's really nice to get to the wall. You've seen a preview of Vietnam War tonight. I've had the good fortune of seeing a good deal more and I will tell you it is just as breathtaking as the clips that you've seen. Lynn, but not always the narrative breathtaking, but so is the scope and ambition of what you've achieved. 10 parts, 18 plus hours. Where do you start on a project like this? We gulp really hard and at least I think speaking for myself and then also for Ken and everyone on our team, we tend to pick subjects about which we are not experts. So we did not go into this knowing what the film would be like or what story we would really tell. And every project, it's true, but I think on this one even more so exponentially, it's a voyage of discovery for us. So we start out by reading a lot, watching other films, finding out which are the historians and the experts who actually have spent their lives learning this subject. And in this case, we dedicated quite a lot of time to try and figure out how would we actually tell a Vietnamese perspective or include it. And we just start accumulating some amount of wisdom along the way. And one thing leads to another. So we could not have envisioned the final film when we started the project. It was a blank slate, literally. And as we learned more, one thing led to another. And that's also true of the presidential audio tapes. We knew they existed, but I personally had heard very little. And we've worked very closely with the experts just on those materials to find the perfect recordings that could help us advance the story of what was happening in the White House as this war was unfolding. So each project is its own voyage of discovery. And I really think, for me personally, this has exceeded my expectations of what we would ever be able to accomplish, partly because of the material we found and the incredible team we've worked with, our editors, our writer, our producers, and all the people who helped us. It's just been an incredible journey. So Vietnam is part of the American consciousness. We see it in movies, we hear about it in songs, mostly those written contemporaneously, which were so infused with passion. So we all have come to Vietnam with some impressions. But as you delved into the project, Lynn, what most surprised you about the Vietnam war? It's hard to say because I didn't know as much about it as I know now, so a great deal surprised me. But I would say for me, what was one of the most surprising was meeting so many Vietnamese witnesses who did not tow the party line that we expected that they would tow. So that was very startling to see that there was a multiplicity of points of view and perspectives that we honestly had no idea was there. That was really, really startling. And I think the other piece of it for me was really just having the privilege of speaking with so many people who lived through it, how real and present it was for them still so many years later that people, they hear a piece of music, they look at a picture, they start to think about something that happened to them, and they are back there in a moment. And that was more visceral and more profound than any project I've worked on. That was really surprising. Ken, you were a teenager. You were in your teen years during the height of the Vietnam War. What did you think of the war then, and what do you think of the war now? Well, I was living in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and Ann Arbor had the first of the teach-ins. So the war was on everyone's mind. The teach-in was sponsored in part by the Department of Anthropology, of which my father was a member. My mother was dying of cancer and would die the next month of April of 1965. And so a lot of our attention in our family was necessarily divided, but it consumed our country. And my memory of it is in the same way that we all accumulated the memory, from the night news, from the protests, from the documentaries that happened at the time, to the succession of news events, to the elections, all of that stuff. But as Lynn was saying, I think that by the time we got four or five decades away, where the historical triangulation can actually take place, when you can have the kind of distance and perspective necessary not to just make a reactive or simply journalistic response, but something that is hopefully greater than the sum of its parts, you begin to realize that almost everything you thought you knew was not true. And that I think I agree completely with Lynn that just the testimony of being brought back, I mean, we couldn't interview anyone from the Civil War, of course. All of our veterans from World War II film were in their late 80s and early 90s, and they were at the end of their lives. The people that we talked to are my age and a little bit older. I was eligible for the draft and had a high draft number. And so I think it's the combination of the sense of being placed back into a moment that we think we know, that our own assumptions superimpose knowledge, but then determine that a great deal of that is just superficial conventional wisdom. And then almost every assumption you have, we have, we share about the war, is completely turned upside down. And so while we're not answering the question, we're deepening the question, what happened? This will be our most controversial work, more so for the people who don't watch it. Right. Than the people who do. But it will be our most controversial work. Even insofar as we're not betraying any particular side, we have deserters and draft dodgers and people who believe we should still be there, fighting the communists equally represented in the film, and more importantly, all the shades in between. But we are presenting a story in which most Americans who have a confident sense of what went on will be staggered in every single episode by not only the immediacy, which I hope you felt today, even with these parachuted in, literally, to these moments, but in the just accumulation of facts, that the things that we thought happened didn't actually happen the way we thought they did. And that provides us with the possibility, as Lynn suggested in her opening remarks, of perhaps unpacking the war in a different way, of getting to know the leaders, getting to know the soldiers, getting to know the civilians in all three sectors, the United States North and South Vietnam, and beginning to understand that so much of our inability to talk with each other, but at each other today, is what we do, where civil discourse has eroded, metastasized back then, and perhaps, by unpacking it as difficult as it will be, we can at least have, and I believe history is a table around which we can have a civil discourse, engage in the thing that we're having such a difficult time today doing, which is talking about things without breaking into argument or faction. Lynn, why is it so raw? I mean, when we were putting together this conference, we knew that we were going to arouse controversy, invariably, because you can't tackle Vietnam in a comprehensive and responsible way without drawing controversy. Why is it so raw after so many years? We have thought about that a lot, and there are several different reasons, and I probably am not going to be able to explain all of it here, but one of the reasons, I think, for the generation that really lived through it in the heart of it, at least one of the people that we spoke with, she was a young woman in college, and she said, you know, our passions are so high about the subject because we're a team, and you just think how heightened your feelings are about what matters and your sense of what's important in your idealism and your beliefs, and it is a black and white kind of way of looking at the world, and so we've aged and we've accumulated wisdom, but when we talk about this moment, it's like we're 18 again. So for some people, I think that's part of it, is that it's just visceral and emotional, and you're back in that moment. But I think on a deeper level, and I've thought about this a lot, and I'm not sure I really can come up with a definitive answer, but I think it's tough because, and the reason why it's unsettled and we don't have consensus is because it potentially reveals things about human nature, about American society that show that we don't always live up to our ideals, and we know that about ourselves intellectually, but emotionally it's very painful to contemplate the really hardest parts of this story, and we retreat into our separate camps and just stay there because it's just too hard to really come up against that, I think, and I'm hoping, as Ken was saying, that the film gives us a chance to recognize, in order for us to address this sort of toxic thing that's been festering, to think about our own humanity and the humanity of the others, the people that we fought, and our own inhumanity, and their inhumanity, and if we can somehow recognize all of those things, then we perhaps have the possibility to not be stuck in this really negative dynamic that has been here for so long, as we're hoping. Ken, when you did the Civil War, of course, you weren't talking to living veterans. When you did World War II, however, you were. You were talking to actual folks who were over there. How did talking to World War II veterans differ from talking to those who fought the war in Vietnam? You know, most of it, Mark, it's very much the same. What happens in war is not what's happening now. I mean, we're able to have a conversation, we do not expect that our violent death could happen at any moment, which is the experience of war, and your awareness of reality is heightened to a degree, not found anywhere else in human experience, which is why war rewards study if it's done without the sentimentalizing and this nostalgia. So in many ways, the descriptions of war are always the same. You can go back to the Greek tragedies and find PTSD and find people who come back from a war with a blank stare or take their own lives or drink themselves to death. This is the currency of the post-traumatic stress syndrome that all wars produce. We just had a name for it in Vietnam. But I also think because of what Lynn was talking about, this sort of divide that's today, coupled with the fact that the veterans aren't at the end of their lives, they are approaching the last chapters, but they're not in the last chapters. The memories are raw and very potent, and there's just more of them around. And so you can essentially select, Lynn is absolutely right, you'll meet 100 people in this film, and you will get to know them, many of them, the way you would somebody you could invite to Thanksgiving. I said that about the World War II film that we made, and I feel that really strongly here. And that's the place in which it might be possible to let down our guard. I mean, you mentioned the Civil War, that's where America really fell apart, right?  We like to think of ourselves, he said, as uncompromising people, but our genius is for compromise. Vietnam is that next closest moment where you just felt, particularly in 68 and 69, that the country just might actually come apart, might fall apart, we might stop working. And so as we've escaped the specific gravity of that terror and that horror, particularly so for the veterans, but also for the rest of the country, that we have found it more convenient to file away all of that stuff. And mainly our own current political politics or our sense of kind of larger patriotic obligation tend to dampen our clear-eyed look at what takes place. And so we always say thank you for your service and we honor the military, but we're also saying we don't wanna know really what's going on. We're so grateful there's not a draft because a draft I might actually have to consider what the cost of war is. But we now have a separate military class that fights and suffers its losses apart and alone from most of us. When I toured with World War II with Lynn, I would go and speak to a group of people and say how many people know someone in Iraq or Afghanistan, 2%, right? I'd say now, could I have all men 17 and older stand up? You're in the Second World War. And we don't have that connection. We think we do because we all share, regardless of political affiliations, the sense of gratitude to that professional service. That's not enough. We are obligated to ask some tough questions. We won't answer them. So the controversy that'll come from our film will not be from any politics we have, but only because we would prefer to return to a very simple binary good-bad thing. So if this is brought up, then that's bad. If you bring that up, well, that's good. Well, you know, and that's why I said, you know, this will be hugely controversial, but only mostly among the people who don't watch it. Well, you mentioned, Ken, that you get to know these people and actually you just saw the clip. You get to know Moghi. Yeah. And Moghi is a narrative threat. You meet Moghi again and again throughout the course of the film. You see his journey. And as you mentioned, you're prepared to invite these people to your dinner table. But the startling thing is some of those people you're prepared to invite are the enemy. Lynn, talk about that. How did you find these folks? And how did you get their stories? Yeah. Well, I do have to just say that we would not be here on the stage talking about this film or the question you just asked. I would not be able to answer where it not for Tommy who helped us beyond anything I can possibly explain in understanding how to begin to navigate that question. He helped us open doors in Vietnam. And we had the highest level access from the government. And again, that surprised us, you know, that the Vietnamese government was willing to let us come in with our cameras and talk to people. And they didn't make us stick to the list of the normal people they tried out when you go there, when cameras go there. They let us choose our own people. And we just started slowly talking to this American war generation there. And the first meeting that I remember having was I want to speak to veterans. And the government arranged it was a room full of, I don't know, 25 retired officers in uniforms with medals all over their chest. And I sat down and we tried to explain why we were here. And each one stood up and gave a speech. And the speech was basically the same speech, every single one. And I thought, OK, this is not going to work. This is going to be a very, very long project. I was getting a party line, sort of just conventional Communist Party narrative of the war from each person at that room. There was one person that I thought showed something a little different. And that's the man that you saw in the clip, Loh Coctham, who talked about how he didn't want to cry when his soldiers. So we have our sort of radar out for people who we think might be able, even across a pretty tough language and cultural barrier, would be able to communicate something on the human level of what the war was really like for them. And we had an incredible team in Vietnam that helped us, a producer there who was a veteran himself and helped us connect with people and explain what we were doing, have them feel comfortable to speak to foreigners with a movie camera. And the government says it's OK. You can say what you really think. And we just little by little kind of learned how to work our way through a lot of different possibilities of people. It was a slow process. And as I said earlier, it exceeded our expectations of there were many times people would say to us, we never tell the truth about the war, but you know what I'm going to tell you. Right. Wow, OK. I'm leaning in now. That's really, really interesting. Or I have nightmares. And my children don't know what it was like. And no one ever talks about it here. And we need to have this conversation. So they were having the same sort of soul searching that we're having here. And I think part of it was just spending time with people, just sitting down in their living room and eating their food and drinking their homemade rice wine and just trying to connect. I don't know. It was incredible privileges that really I made. Sarah Botstein and I, our producer, made several trips to Vietnam and never forget it. The other thing that's striking in addition to meeting these people and getting to know them is you realize this is revelatory for me, perhaps naively. The insurgency was not monolithic. It was fractious. Talk about that. Well, it's interesting. This is still a repressive communist regime and has its own version of what went on. And it's as kind of limited as some of the versions that we sponsor here. We're free to express all the different points of view. And so the majority of the people, the overwhelming majority you'll meet, are a variety of Americans. But I think once you're able to punch through that kind of party line, you're then exposed to people who are revealing their war experiences. And it is extraordinarily helpful. Just as in the Civil War, we can appreciate our own near-national suicide. Because in the presence of the enemy, who happens to be our brothers, we have to sort of drop some of the basic assumptions we make about war. In World War II, we were all doing it from an American perspective. So we had a monolithic them, an enemy. And it's very important in war to make the enemy just bad. We had all sorts of names, the gooks, the slants, the dinks, the zips, all of this sort of stuff that was said at the time, which is a way of reducing people to nothing. And if you then open up with lives that suddenly are expressing the same things that our veterans are saying, and that they feel a kind of comfort, perhaps, towards the end of their life, where so what? I mean, one of the veterans says, I don't know how you're going to use this. I could get in trouble. But now I'm going to tell you something that, to this day, the Saigon Hanoi regime does not admit to place atrocities on the north part and freely admits that. And it's revelatory. And that's what you have to do to understand something. It is too easy, again, to put it into that binary thing. Us, who have dimension and complexity and different points of view, and them, who are one thing, just the party line. And you'll meet a couple people in the film who are that party line. And they talk about the imperialists and the puppet government. And it was good to have that representation, just as I'm sure someone will figure out a few of the people in ours seem, from their own perspective, to be that kind of Martinette. But what we've tried to do is not make the other wrong. You just say, this is what happened. Just kind of deal with it. And what happens is, it's going to make people uncomfortable, because you're going to have to give up, no matter if you're on the extreme left or the extreme right. We have people in this film who, as I said, think we should still be there fighting the communists. We have people in our film who sincerely knew from the very, very beginning this was a mistake. And they're both wrong.  Here's what happened. We betrayed the South Vietnamese government. We just let them die. It's a lot more complicated than that. You, too, have spent a lot of time with commanders and chiefs, specifically Abraham Lincoln in the Civil War and Franklin Roosevelt, to a lesser degree, Harry Truman in World War II. Talk about the commanders and chief around Vietnam and your impressions of them after having done this film. Well, we have to understand, first of all, that this is a story that begins with Harry Truman, the American story, begins with Harry Truman and proceeds through Eisenhower and Kennedy and Johnson and Richard Nixon and to Gerald Ford as well. And so we are meeting a lot of people and maybe we can focus the attention on just a couple, the two most important would be Lyndon Baines Johnson and Richard Milhouse Nixon. But it is very, very clear in retrospect that nearly all the decisions that were made were informed by some way by domestic political considerations, from Harry Truman to Dwight Eisenhower to John F. Kennedy to Johnson to Nixon to Ford. And so that is an interesting thing to understand that in a situation in which you sort of feel that on the other side of the world you've got certain military exigencies, a good deal of what's happening is being determined by domestic political considerations, which is not always the best way to run a war. Right. Lynn, did you come away with impressions of these commanders in chief that might have been different than the one you came to the project? No doubt, yes. Well, I think as Ken was saying, it's having a multi-dimensional sense of them too because it's very easy to demonize or lionize these figures as larger than life, not real people. And listening to the audio, especially for Johnson and Nixon, you begin to feel a little bit more of a sense of them as a human being. And I've read a lot, I've seen other documentaries and all that kind of thing, but somehow the intimacy of those recordings, and we listen to a lot more than what's in the film. So listening to hours and hours of tapes to pick the few moments that we chose to use began to see, especially Johnson really wrestling with these terrible, terrible problems. But we also hear him haranguing reporters and telling General Eisenhower that the antiwar processors are all mentally diseased. And I mean, you see many different facets of his personality and how he could, as many people here know, sort of shine, project different ways of being, depending on who he was talking to. It was sort of stunning to see. And Nixon, I think he's very, very smart. I had not appreciated quite how gifted a politician he was, to be honest, how brilliantly he communicated with the public on many, many levels. And I may not agree with the things he was doing, but you cannot take away that he was extremely talented at both the decision-making process and also the communication. So you see thousands of people in the streets protesting, but then you have to recognize that the majority of the public is hugely behind him for a lot of his presidency. The 1972 victory is a landslide. So he was really talented, and he was very, very practically minded about what needed to be done in Vietnam. So you see a lot of, just not disconnect, but a distance between what he's saying publicly and what he's saying privately. But in the end, he does seem to understand the true dynamics on the ground of what needs to be done there. So it's complicated, which I think is great. We like complicated stories and complicated people. They're all interesting people. And I think it's also, we can escape the, sort of the sense, oh, well, if Kennedy had lived, we would have never gotten into Vietnam. There's lots of stuff that we just assume, or it's in the drinking water, that I think we just can't say that at the end. Why don't we assume that about John F. Kennedy? Well, a lot of it has to do from a presidency cut short. The mythologizing is sort of hyper-increased at that point. When someone runs their course, it's, you know, when you've got them for eight years or something, it's different. But the sort of the dramatic shift means that we invested in Camelot, which is in fact, after the fact, a kind of appreciation, so many, a mythology. And you heard it in just the little clip, you there. I mean, Johnson took on all of Kennedy's guys and they led him all the way there. Now, maybe John Kennedy would have said, stop. But on many occasions, Lyndon Johnson said, no, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna put boots on the ground right now. I'm not gonna do this.  I'm not gonna do this. So he was doing what you thought that John F. Kennedy might have done and yet somehow the water, the quicksand was rising. And it had started under Harry Truman and all it took was just, you know, John Kennedy at one point talks about saying, you know, he agonized over it as well and there's a couple of tapes, but also, you know, comments that he made about it was like taking a drink and then another drink and another drink and you'd want more. And that drinking, that addiction happened with Harry Truman and that's a hugely important American question that Lynn brought up earlier about our exceptionalism or when we're not exceptional and how we deal with it or don't deal with it. It's much easier to say, oh yeah, this is one of the greatest and we don't understand the ways in which we often are not the greatest. And after the Second World War, when we quite correctly felt our oats, you know, it's been a rough half century or more of foreign policy. What, Lynn, ultimately, do you want the viewer to take from this film? Oh, well, I mean, I think as Ken was saying, we're trying to ask a lot of questions and we're hoping people will give it their attention and we know we're asking a lot 18 hours but we feel this is an epic story that unfolded over many years in history and we've condensed it down to only 18 hours. So. We can look at it right now. Right. But I think we hope that people will come away with a deeper understanding of the, what it was like to live through that time and how hard it was because it really was a traumatic experience for everyone, it seems, who had to go through it. And I think if we can extend to the past, as Ken was saying, sort of not being so quick to judge and to actually try to understand the choices people had to make then, we can maybe move toward a deeper conversation about what does it mean to be a patriot? Right. The allegations of citizenship. What is a good leader? These are just essential questions. What are the limits of American power? You know, who are we as human beings? Who are we as a nation? These are big, epic questions and they're all tied into the story of Vietnam. So I guess we're really hoping that through watching the film and hopefully having conversations about it and we've had some incredible conversations after our screenings with a wide range of people who've come, you've been to some of them. You know, people have all crossed the spectrum politically and different experiences in the war coming together to kind of share their stories and hear each other out of respect. Those have been some of our favorite moments, I think, of this entire project. And I think we are really hoping that this film can spark that across the country. And we're working with PBS to come up with an unbelievably ambitious sort of outreach and engagement program. We're hoping to come back here and to other presidential libraries and to schools and colleges and communities to help people figure out ways to talk about this really tough subject. We're calling it courageous conversations. It's time to talk about Vietnam. That's our, you know, I think we have high hopes that something really good can come of that, especially in this extraordinarily polarized time that we live in. One of the things that I came away from when I was with you in New Hampshire looking at these rough cuts is the collaborative nature of your film. And I really appreciated your open-mindedness. You don't come to a subject with an agenda. No.  I mean that in the most literal sense. Yes, absolutely. No, curiosity.  Let me tell you what I know, therefore what you should know. And the last time I checked, that's called homework. You know? And we'd rather share with you a process of discovery. We are not scholars. We hired the very best scholars to advise us. And we listened to them and they represented, as Lynn said, a whole spectrum of different beliefs and different areas of scholarship and different presidential administrations and lots of people from the military, from West Point, from the Army War College. And what we're doing is raising, we're telling a good story. This is a phenomenally complicated story. And that's what we do for a living. The rest of the stuff that we're talking about is kind of the back end film. We're just trying to figure out how to tell a complicated story and do justice to it.  You know, there's 72 hours on the cutting room floor that we wish could be in that's seemingly good stuff. But this is what we feel we could present to get that courageous conversation going. And that's hugely important to us. And you know, when you finish editing a film in the parlance of the editing room, you lock it. Meaning you promise to the sound editors that you won't change the relationships of shots. We've unlocked almost every episode since we locked it in order because we learned something new. And I think that too often, even in scholarship, there is research, the writing, and then boom, done. And same in filmmaking. You research for a finite period of time. It produces a script that comes down from Mount Sinai and it's the written in stone and that's what you shoot and edit. We never stop researching and we never stop writing. And we're constantly, I mean, we were just talking just two days ago in New York City about having to rewrite something in a couple of the episodes because we learned that we could say that one phrase, a nuance that would pass over most of our audience without notice, but we want to get it right. And we find a new picture or we find a new piece of footage or something. And so we have a year and a half before it's broadcast. It's supposed to be done. We're not supposed to be messing with it, but we're trying to get it right. We're not gonna get the answer as we've been saying, but we want to raise all those questions, those fundamental questions and the larger, bigger, almost spiritual questions that Vietnam raises about what happens when human beings make war on each other and kill each other in great numbers. And that's what we hope. I mean, we just want people to just be drawn into a good story and permit themselves possibly the bandwidth to relax or let go of the preconceptions that are part of their own operating system because they don't serve as well as they think they do. Certainly, this is what Jeff and Sarah Botstein, Jeff Ward and Sarah Botstein and Lynn and I have felt that it just wasn't enough to sort of carry our own baggage into it. We actually had to say goodbye to a lot of stuff and not make it homework.  It's a bumpy ride. Well, throughout the course of this week, we've been expressing our gratitude to our veterans who fought in Vietnam and will continue to do so. But I want to thank you in advance for this film that will change the paradigm which we look at Vietnam and for telling the stories of so many of the people who went there for our government. So thank you both for being here so much. Thank you.


I don't even want to lose subscribers because I'm looking rough This is just one of those type of situations where when you know somebody you know somebody And they able to help you out during these tough times boys out here looking scruffy. I'm looking a little bit scruffy So I got a re-up so you're gonna see the before and after Once I pull up can't really show you the exact location because you know I'm saying it's a personal place But other than that about to check it out and I'll see y'all in a few When I ask y'all question man Quick question, so how y'all Being affected by these quarantine times every living man, like I know I'm in a fortunate situation I'm able to get a haircut, you know, because I know somebody personally But how y'all manage in it for those who like don't know Your barber on that type of level personally and you know saying how y'all going about it If you're in a relationship, you let your significant other cut your hair like what's happening man Because just like women like to get their hair done and I know there's a lot of women out there Struggling right now to get their hair done men like to get their hair cut It's like, you know when it comes to just looking presentable and feeling good about yourself Some haircuts come in clutch, you know I'm saying so I want to know comment down below. How are y'all, you know Getting around this situation like I said me. I'm in a fortunate situation because I know somebody Person now before I you know start getting my hair cut by my mommy I was actually getting my hair cut at this barber shop Now I know for a fact if that was the case the shop, you know the shop is probably closed right now So I definitely wouldn't be getting anything, you know saying haircut lines like I'd be struggling right now So it's good that I you know, I'm in that situation. So I just want to know how are y'all getting around this I know some people they out there They they wolf in it right now man They they got the hair looking like they've been on an island for at least 12 months And we've only been quarantining for about a couple months if that you feel me So I just want to know how y'all, you know trying to Maneuver through this crazy just a situation that we're in so I should not be doing this wrong driving I just wanted to make a quick Video before I get to my destination. So I'll check y'all in a few the impromptu shop aka the homies crib You haven't been looking somewhat presentable in these streets these quarantine streets No gloves no love Tell them truth man some people They you know saying Then unfortunate situations boys be hitting me up on the IG. How do you get your haircut? What like I'm out here struggling Hi, hi, what's going on? You know somebody knows somebody, you know, I'm saying I don't know what to tell you bro. I'm sorry So that's This is the mystery right here if y'all want to know Don't get boys start posting those depth of field shots with the part on the side You know I'm saying and my side keep grace Ask that shit again, bro. So Have you ever been cheated on? Mm-hmm By another female like your female cheating on you with another female.  You might as well just cheat on me with a guy You feel me like if you're gonna you already halfway there You know what I'm saying just a couple testosterone pills and bam you there, you know, but I probably feel a little bit worse if it was a guy was stud. Now if it's a chick If it's if it's a chick like a a feminine chick, but she bad though. What is she bad? Like? I'm still I'm gonna be more mad.  Yeah.  Let's jump And I would have jumped how how we jumping bro. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like that's that's something that you know I definitely would have been a part of The fact that we having this conversation with a toddler They can't understand what we're talking about. But no, I don't know man. I couldn't do it. I I feel some top away. We definitely have some some discussions when she came back home I'm definitely sitting in the living room with the lights off until I hear that Turn up. What have you been? I was hanging with my girls. Hmm. He was hanging with your girls, huh? That's crazy Because I could have sworn you was just hanging with your girls earlier. Yeah, y'all been hanging a lot later Yeah, I played a game too long. We get yeah. So what's what's going on? I haven't even met your lady friend. Like which which friend is this? Yeah, which friend is this? I haven't met this person. Like what's going on here? Do I need to hand to the longer matter? Fitting there for like, I don't know Five six hours now. What's what's happening over here? They ain't that much girl talk, you know, I'm saying like what's going on I'm telling you y'all start drinking it.  So she was built like Phineas here Oh, that's horrible.  There we go. There we go.  There you go. Appreciate that See you little man. Oh, you're not gonna let me leave. All right Uh, shout out to the homie Anthony I'ma put his instagram down in, uh Description below Check out his page, man. He uh, he's nice with the cuts So if y'all looking for a cut in the houston area when everything opens back up, then uh Hit my boy out, man But uh right now I'm actually about to go check out this place to get some food because I'm actually hungry and I want to you know, I'm saying try this food out All right, so yeah, he he got me looking right, you know, I'm saying he got the beard lined up You feel me like I'm I'm liking the look you feel me like it's it's looking looking real crisp You know, I'm saying I'm feeling it but I'm about to go check out this food spot Get boy, you know feeling good feeling fresh. So I gotta eat something nice You know what I'm saying? Hold on. Let me show y'all this place right here waiting for it to focus in Right here twisted grilled cheese, man. Look at this Look at this. Oh, that looks so good. Oh my god. Oh, man.  But that that looks delicious, man So I'm about to see what they talking about man Hit them up Oh, this looks good. This looks Mmm Gotta see what they man. My stomach is growling just looking at this So about to hit them up. See what they talking about try to get some food to go and uh We'll go from there, man. Uh, but yeah I'm feeling good now. I'm feel like a brand new man got the chop beard lined up. I'm I'm ready to start my day and uh Yeah, so see y'all in a few Whoo, what's good y'all? So I got the food. I'm about to check it out. We about to check it out together See how it looks I'm sweating right now because it's it's hot as hell. It just got hot all of a sudden. All right, let's check this out, man Let's let's look at this Oh, okay Oh, man Oh Oh my god Oh, yeah, okay. I got to put it down because I'm gonna want to eat it Uh, I believe the one I got was the one uh the six pepperoni That's the one I just looked at and then I got my mom the buffalo chicken I'm not even about to touch my mom's because I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm gonna want to eat both of them. They they look so good Um, I actually found this place on instagram. It was in my feed I like the food looked good or follow them and I had to pull up because I was on this side of town so I'm about to indulge when I get to the crib, but I just wanted to do a little vlog man I like the camera just kind of test out this camera vlog style You feel me figure out, you know the lighting and all the other stuff and uh, just to show y'all boys You know I'm saying your boys stay with the cuts. You know I'm saying once again I'm sorry for everybody that isn't able to get a cut. You know I'm saying right now um, I don't know what to tell you just uh, You know may want to hit up some youtube videos and uh try to you know figure something out if possible or wear a hat Granted, you know, I mean, it's it's not really too bad because nobody can really go out Anyway, so you know I'm saying hopefully you guys are managing out there Hopefully you guys are being safe out there, but I appreciate y'all kicking with me.  Peace