It's time for the Lawn Jean Chronoscope, a television journal of the important issues of the hour brought to you every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, a presentation of the Lawn Jean Wettner Watch Company, maker of Lawn Jean, the world's most honored watch, and Wettner Distinguished Companion to the World Honored Lawn Jeans. Good evening. This is Frank Knight. May I introduce our co-editors for this edition of the Lawn Jean Chronoscope? Mr. William Bradford Huey, author and analyst, and Dr. William Peterson, author and economist. Our distinguished guest for this evening is the Honorable Lori C. Battle, United States Congressman from Alabama. Mr. Battle, many of our viewers, of course, know that you are now serving your fourth term in Congress, that you are one of the more distinguished younger Southern Southern congressmen, that you had a distinguished war record, and that you've interested yourself, particular in our foreign affairs, that you're a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Now, first of all, sir, in relation to the administration program to reduce arms expenditures, it's believed that the Democratic Party and the Democratic members of Congress may oppose the administration for the first time in its efforts now to reduce arms expenditures. Now, what about yourself, sir? Do you expect to oppose the general effort on the part of the administration to reduce arms expenditures? Well, first, Mr. Huey, let me thank you for your very kind introduction. It's a privilege to be on this great program and to have the opportunity of saying hello to the folks, and especially my constituents in Jefferson County, Alabama. As to your question, I personally will oppose this five billion dollar reduction in our military expenditures. I think it was a tragic mistake, and it was proven back in Secretary Johnson's administration when they cut to the peril point. Well, now, do you believe that it will become a party issue that the Democrats generally will oppose the reduction in arms expenditures? Well, of course, I don't believe that we can expect the Democrats to support the Republican president forever, but I hope this will not become a party measure, a party issue, because it's just too important. Mr. Battle, would you say the Air Force represents our chief striking weapon to prosecute the war in Korea? Well, I would not underestimate the effectiveness of our striking Air Force for one minute. I think it's most important, and I would sincerely and honestly, with conviction, oppose the anticipated cuts. Well, now, specifically on that cut, it's proposed to cut the Air Force by five billion dollars. And do you think that this would seriously impair the Air Force, this cut? Well, it's my understanding that it would cause something of a stretch out. In other words, instead of being prepared here in the next couple of years with a few more, a lot more planes and a greater striking force, that it would extend it on to a further period of time, and I don't think that's safe. What about your belief as far as your constituents are concerned? You believe that your constituents and the American people are willing to continue spending these vast amounts of money all the time?  Well, now, and specifically again, do you believe that most or much of this five billion dollar proposed cut will be restored by the Congress? Well, I believe that most of it will be restored by the Congress, and I certainly hope so because I don't think that we can afford to go through the dangerous period that we have before unprepared. Well, moving on to something that you have been particularly interested in, sir, you are author of what is known as the Battle Act. Now, will you explain briefly to our viewers what the Battle Act intended to do? Well, the Battle Act is Public Law 213 of the 82nd Congress. It had two purposes, one to establish a policy for the United States. In other words, in bar-going the trade of war materials and strategic materials and preventing them from going behind the iron curtain. It had it for a second purpose, the prevention of those same materials from going from our allies behind the iron curtain to build up these communist war machines. In other words, its specific purpose was to prevent our enemy from receiving anything that might be useful in the war against us. That's exactly right, and we said that all military, economic and financial aid would be cut off from any of our recipients if they didn't follow that same policy. Now, have you made a particular study since the passage of that act? Have you made it your business to examine and see whether or not the provisions were being carried out? I certainly have. Last fall, for instance, I visited many of the highly industrialized European nations and with particularly this particular thing in mind. Mr. Fallow, how do you reconcile your position with that of Senator McCarthy? As I understand it, Senator McCarthy is to stop all aid. In other words, all shipments, foreign shipments going into China. Well, what we've done in this legislation, and I think we could still go further, is to embargo completely all war materials. That is, arms, ammunition, and implements of war, and thank goodness, according to our best intelligence, no recipient of our aid has sent any war materials as such in this limited definition. And then we go further and say that all strategic materials will be embargoed, but the President of the United States, in an exceptional case, where he has determined that it's to the security interest of the United States can make an exception. You remember the Danish tanker, and the way I would broaden this is to include in this list things like rubber and certain types of ball bearings and vehicles and the whole host of items that are useful to the enemy that is not narrow on this embargo list. Well, from your extensive information, sir, will you tell our viewers whether or not you think that our enemy has received substantial aid from our allies during the last three years? Well, I'm sorry to say, Mr. Heard, that I am convinced in my own mind and from personal observation that they have received substantial aid from our allies. Then you would probably say that this is one of the primary reasons for the big three meeting between Mr. Churchill and President Eisenhower and Mr. Blank, whoever he's going to be. Dr. Peterson, I'm certain that this issue will be brought up because it's a dividing point between us at the present time, especially the difference between Great Britain's policy and ours. Well, now, Britain is now sending rubber, for instance, to Russia, and Russia is not our enemy or at least our avowed enemy in Korea. What do you think about Britain's policy of sending rubber to Russia? Would you attempt to cut that off? Well, so far as I'm concerned, it don't make sense to continue sending military aid to our allies if they're going to continue to help to build up with the Communist War machine, not only in China but in Russia and all of the satellite countries. For instance, Great Britain has a policy of not sending rubber to China, but she sends it to Russia, where it can be converted into tires and then sent on behind Iron Curtain, wherever she may choose, even to the battle front. And I think that rubber should be classified as strategic and embargo. Well, now, what do you think about the future? In the future, do you think we have a pretty good chance of cutting off these materials that are going to all Iron Curtain countries? Well, I think very definitely. Of course, the main problem is one of enforcement and cooperation. But I think very definitely that we can expand these lists and go much further and accomplish a whole lot more to prevent the buildup of the war machine coming from items that originate in the West. Well, now, in these efforts to cut off trade with our enemy, you of course run into the question now of also our efforts to increase trade in the world. You come from the South, which is traditionally supported a free trade policy. Do you support generally the idea of more world trade? I certainly do. And as a matter of fact, I will support the reciprocal trade policy that the President has asked us to extend. While at the same time, that does not apply to these materials that we are talking about. And I don't think that we can continuously and forever deplete our resources without taking things back into our own country. Well, Mr. Battle, with particular reference to the importation of oil, particularly from South America, you're coming from a coal producing district. How do you feel about foreign oil? Well, I used to think that this slogan of trade and not aid was about the only non-controversial issue in my district. But I found recently that not only the coal operators, but the union operators have gotten together for a change, and they have asked me to support the Simpson bill, which would limit the amount of import of oil. I think, of course, that we must be reasonable about the proposition. And at the same time, realize, for instance, that all that would come from Venezuela is an important thing, because we're going in our district, in our own area, to import iron ore from Venezuela. You mean the Birmingham district is now importing iron ore from Venezuela? Well, we may have a very rich source of ores, and we are going to import them through the Port of Mobile to help out in our industries and therefore preserve our resources for a longer period of time. So I believe in protecting our industries, but at the same time being reasonable. Well, as a final question, Mr. Battle, coming back to all of this extensive experience that you've had in dealing with our allies in reference to the war in Korea. Now, a great many of our viewers are a little bit disillusioned about some of our allies and the amount of cooperation that they've given us. From your experience, sir, do you believe that it's possible for us to get a higher degree of cooperation from our allies? Mr. Hewley, I have no doubt in my own mind that we can and that we will get a higher degree of cooperation from our allies. We've got a lot to build on. For instance, in Turkey, I know from first-hand experience or I just felt that Turkey would fight to the last man in case she were invaded or in case the West was invaded. It's up to the United States of America. The challenge is ours. We will not fail, I believe, with the proper and firm leadership that we can and will give, and our allies will come along and we will defeat the communists. Well, thank you, sir, for these very firm expressions of yours this evening. Thank you. The opinions you've heard our speakers express tonight have been entirely their own. The editorial board for this edition of the Laun Jean Chronoscope was Mr. William Bradford Hewley and Dr. William Peterson. Our distinguished guest was the Honorable Laurie C. Baffle, United States Congressman from Alabama. The reputation of Laun Jean watches for greater accuracy has brought many requests over the years for specialized Laun Jean watches for scientific purposes, for navigation, aviation, astronomy, exploration, sports science, and so on. Now here are some of these Laun Jean technical watches. Many are of complicated design. Each was designed by Laun Jean engineers made in the Laun Jean factory. The exceptional skill, experience, and inventiveness, so often demonstrated by Laun Jean watchmakers, serves to explain why, among the world's finest watches, Laun Jean alone has won ten World's Fair Grand Prizes, twenty-eight gold medals, and so many honors for accuracy. Now this same skill, experience, and inventiveness, is evident in every Laun Jean watch now being shown by your authorized jeweler agency. These Laun Jean watches have more than commanding beauty. They represent close to ultimate perfection in watch manufacture. So whatever the gift occasion, whether for the bride and groom to celebrate a happy anniversary or for a birthday or graduation, throughout the world no other name on a watch means so much as Laun Jean. The world's most honored watch, the world's most honored gift, is the premier product of the Laun Jean Witner watch company, since 1866, maker of watches of the highest character. We invite you to join us every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday evening at this same time for the Laun Jean Chronoscope, a television journal of the important issues of the hour, broadcast on behalf of Laun Jean, the world's most honored watch, and Witner, distinguished companion to the world's honored Laun Jean. This is Frank Knight, reminding you that Laun Jean and Witner watches are sold and serviced from coast to coast by more than 4,000 leading jewelers who proudly display this emblem, agency for Laun Jean Witner watches. There's Sunday Daytime Adventure on the CBS Television Network.


On Tuesday, we found out that big banks' profits plunged as they set aside billions to get ready for a flood of customers to default on their loans throughout the COVID-19 pandemic. Meanwhile, the IMF said we're likely headed towards a massive global recession, unlike anything aside from the Great Depression. Welcome to The Tick-Mill Update. I'm Kiana Daniel, the founder of the InvaStiva movement. Make sure to subscribe to The Tick-Mill YouTube channel and to support us by liking and sharing this video with your forex trading friends. On Wednesday, we'll be looking at the U.S. retail sales, Canada's rape decision, and Australia's jobs report. Today, I'm looking at the Aussie Yen pair, which has been unable to break through the daily Ichimoku Cloud and the 61% of natural retracement level of 69 has been getting tested for four consecutive days. Meanwhile, Ichimoku's tank online has crossed below the key zone line, sending another bearish signal. With this depending on Australia's jobs report outcome, we could see the bears gaining power and pushing the pair towards the 50% of natural retracement level of 67. Do you think the bears will win this battle this week? Head over to the comment section and let me know. Of course, trading in the financial markets involves a risk of loss and you should only trade the money that you can afford to lose. If you like this video, give it a thumbs up and subscribe to the Tick-Mill YouTube channel and I'll get back to you with more updates tomorrow.


This 2011 Ford Shelby GT500 Mustang is stock number 11616Z. We are here at Summit Automotive in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, your new and used sports car headquarters. This 2011 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 has the 5.4 liter supercharged V8 motor, which pumps out 550 horsepower. Black clear coat is the color this car has been fully-safetyed and inspected by our service shop. It has a fresh oil and filter change. All the fluids have been checked and topped off, and this car is 100% ready to go. Once again, black clear coat with the white stripes as the color. We shoot all of our videos in 1080p, 60 frames per second, so if you have HD capabilities on your computer, tablet, smartphone, or television, turn them on right now because it is definitely your best way to check out the quality and condition of the car before seeing it in person. And if you'd like to subscribe to our YouTube channel and the lower right hand part of the screen is a gold subscribe button, click that, and then click the bell notifications to get daily updates on the videos we are doing on our new and used inventory. This one has the SVT performance package, which gives you the painted alloy SVT rims. It has the Brembo brakes, and it has Goodyear Eagle F1 tires. These are 26540 ZR19s in the front, and they have a pretty good amount of tread left in there. All the tread is on the middle of this tire, so once we get to the back, I'll show you what I mean. But no scuffs or scrapes on that rim, good tread on those tires. Front fender is in excellent shape. I didn't see any dents or dings on there. Front bumper and lower valance are in excellent shape. The stripes are in excellent shape as well. Factory fog lights. It has the HID headlamps. You get the Cobra right there. Hood is in pretty nice condition as well. And the stripes on the hood are in nice shape too. You have the air extractors there. Passengers side front fender is in nice condition as well. No dents, no dings. And the passenger side rim, no scuffs or scrapes on there. Looks really good. As you go down this side of the car, take note of how clean the body is, how reflective and mirror-like that paint is. We take these HD videos, so if you are far away, or even if you're close by and you just cannot make the trip down, but you're still interested in purchasing the car, you can see the car, hear the car, and have confidence in what you're looking at before you even get here. When you do get here, there's absolutely no surprises. And you can make a smart buying decision from the comfort of your own home. Just want to point out this one does have the hard-to-find glass roof with the GT500 package. They didn't make a ton of them, so when you find one, they usually go pretty fast. Not that the GT500s don't go fast without the glass roof, but they go fast regardless. Back tires have just as much tread as the front tires, maybe just a hair bit less, but that's where all that tread is on those tires. Back rim, no scuffs or scrapes on there. As we come around to the back of the vehicle, rear bumper is in excellent shape. The stripes back here are in excellent shape, and the deck lid and spoiler are in excellent shape as well. Down the driver's side, just as clean as that passenger's side. No dents or dings on the rear quarter. It does have the capitalist fuel. Back rim, pretty nice shape. It does have just a little bit of a touch-up on there, but that's why we do the videos because these are used vehicles. We want to give you the most accurate representation. Power mirrors with the blind spot mirror.  There are no rips. There are no tears on the seats. You get the Cobra embossed backrest. You get the suede inserts on the bolsters there. Side turn airbags. Back seats are in excellent condition as well. No rips or tears back there. Latch child safety system, just very nice and clean all the way through. Power driver seat, lumbar, and then factory GT500 floor mats. Auto headlamps, power mirrors, power locks, and power windows. I'm going to show you the trunk here as long as I'm standing and have the keys. This one comes with some paperwork that the previous owner kept as far as oil changes.  That comes with the car as well. It does have the original window sticker. I can pull that out of the glove box when we get inside here. We can take a look at that, take a look at the miles, the radio, everything inside. Turn the ignition on for you. You can see that this one has 4,471 miles. You do get the ambient lighting so you can change the colors and everything. Instrument cluster is very nice and clean. Comes with the leather wrapped and suede inserts on the steering wheel. Volume and Bluetooth controls on the right. You get the Cobra emblem in the center of the steering wheel and then cruise controls on the left. That steering wheel is in excellent shape all the way around. You do get the AM FM and Sirius XM radio capabilities on the CD player. It does have sync so you can sync it up with your Bluetooth cell phone. Six speed manual transmission. You get the trunk button, the stability control, and then ambient lighting. You can also change the color of your halo lights in the cup holders. Passenger side floor mat and seat are in excellent condition. This is the great part about this car is the glass roof. Makes it very airy in here, very open. But if it was hot and the sun's out and you want to cover that up, it does come with the shade and then that makes it kind of like a normal headliner. When you want it back, it just goes back like so. Then you have your full glass roof again. So very, very neat option. Like I said, not too many GT500s have them. So you get your book. You have all the books that go with that inside of there. I'm not going to get those out, but I will show you the original window sticker here. Feel free to pause this. Everything on the left is your standard equipment. Then everything on your right is your optional equipment. So the glass roof was a $1995 option. The SVT performance package was $34.95 until MSRP on this car was $54.985. And 23 miles per gallon in the highway, 15 city. And yeah, that's kind of what we got here for you on this car. 17 miles per gallon average. We will start it up and then we'll take a look under the hood. These are one of my favorite cars of all time. They sound great and fast. This one also has the window action security. So it does have a security number on each piece of glass. So if someone wants to steal it, they'd have to break out all the glass on here. Just another little security feature that is on this car. Under the hood we have the 5.4 liter supercharged V8 motor. And hopefully from this HD video you'll be able to tell just how clean this car is all the way around. That's a motocraft battery hand built this car. Looks like Jeff Poplin and Gary Marster. The engine bay is extremely clean, cold air intake. And once again this car has been fully safe and inspected by our service shop. Has a fresh oil and filter change. All the fluids have been checked and topped off. And this car is 100%. Ready to go. There are those HID headlamps. I would highly recommend this car from a quality and condition standpoint. And to see more pictures of this car or one of our other 450 new and used cars, trucks, SUVs, minivans, Wranglers, sports cars, GT500s, challenges, chargers, mustangs. You name it we gotta go to that website right there www.summitauto.com Full pictures and descriptions of every single vehicle from two locations all at summitauto.com And if you'd like to check out more HD videos you can go to youtube.com. Remember to like, subscribe and share on this video and all the videos that you see there. In fact in a second you will see a link to subscribe to our YouTube channel in the upper left. A link to more GT500 videos like this one in the upper right. A link to this car on our website in the lower left. If you haven't been to our website or if you haven't been to our YouTube channel in the lower right. A link to one of our latest YouTube videos. Click those, check us out. Remember to like, subscribe and share and we're super excited to be offering this ultra clean 2011.  Thanks again for checking out the video.


This is the SF Productions podcast network Tickets for the 330 emoji movie is something I will never say from the pop culture bunker I'm Mindy and I'm mark you can check out our audio podcast how I got my wife to read comics on iTunes or on our website SF podcast network comm as we release this episode the first big summer movie has dropped Guardians of the Galaxy volume 2 I think we can assume it was a big hit Yes, I think that would be pretty safe to say and that means the tumult of movie releases has begun Starting with on May 5th also probably out by the time we're talking about this The lovers Deborah winger comes out of retirement I'm seeing her for a while. Maybe she's on some cable show. I don't know no an unhappy married couple have an affair with each other Okay Okay, is that a comedy here? No, no, no, it's a drama. Oh, it would be a good comedy. Yeah May 12th snatched mother and daughter in a zany kidnap adventure and that's Amy Schumer and Goldie Han So, you know, it will be scatological King Arthur legend of the sword another return to the round table that no one asked for Jude Law is the bad guy Charlie Hunnam is the hero who's best known for television Queer as folk and sons of anarchy Yeah, there's another King Arthur type movie come maybe I'm or they could be the same movie Yeah, that'll come and go and it'll be on it'll be on the airplanes for you know, maybe it was a TV show There's like something where there's a girl that's King Arthur. I can't remember what it is. Maybe it's a comic book. Yeah May 19th alien covenant a sequel to the prequel Ridley Scott is back in the director's chair and this stars Michael fastbender So if you want to see a lot of goopin's slime and Probably not things coming out of people's stomachs. Who knows maybe? Yeah Everything everything the Hunger Games Roo Amanda Stenberg stars as a teenager Who's physically isolated due to an immune system issue? So basically girl in the plastic bubble And this is based on a young adult novel which everything is these days. So what the heck, right? Oh May 25th big day. Yeah Sorry Baywatch The rock Zach Efron and Priyanka Chopra run slowly across the beach And apparently this is going for comedy action. Yeah, I would assume something like that. I was thinking along the lines of you know The chips movie redo or something like that, right? You know, it's not something I'd be at all interested in and yes The Hoff is in the movie. Yeah May 26 of the next day Pirates of the Caribbean dead men tell no tales. This is the fifth film in the franchise It's been 14 years since the first one. Yeah, we saw the first one. Yes, we did and then we never went back I'm sure it will do fine without us So far summer's not cheaping up to be very uh, nope very attractive to me at least And then we have war machine. This is not the Marvel character. This is a dark comedy about Afghanistan with Brad Pitt. I Guess we're just not the focus of the movie makers of America. Yeah. Oh wait here. Here we go second Wonder Woman Gal Gadot wields the golden lasso. It's only taken DC 75 years to get around to making her a new a movie. I Have high hopes just don't blow it Warner Brothers. Please don't blow it As we've discussed they're already kind of falling behind the ball on promotion for it now See I've seen since that article there was an article that said oh, there's hardly any promotion for the movie and DC's that Warner Brothers really screwed up and then I've seen other ones that said well at this point in terms of Like Sue Scott suicide squad. They've actually spent more on Wonder Woman than suicide. Then how come we're not seeing it Where is where is the visible promotion because it must all be invisible promotion? Yeah, did you pay a ton of money to dr. Pepper for those cans and are they counting the like stuff that they're doing for Justice League that's Wonder Woman related or anything that's even like Merchandising this related to the comic book that has nothing to do with the movie Hmm June 9th the mummy Universal begins their run toward a classic monster franchise. So we're actually gonna see all the monsters recreated. Okay. Yeah Tom Cruise plays the hero Sophia butella plays the monster Who I assume will spend most of her time in a trench because Tom's not a tall man And Russell pro will play dr. Jekyll in a small role So I presumably there'll be a dr. Jekyll movie coming out of yeah, uh-huh. So they're gonna have a whole Monster universe. Yep. Yep a shared monster universe Frankenstein and Dracula and Wolfman the mummy, you know June 16th cars three Really Pixar really? Yes, really they make a ton of money off cars Oh, but no one like the last one other than like four-year-olds and apparently that four-year-old market is enough to Make you a ton of money. Well, it's and it's not I don't think the movie that I'm merchandising And yeah, they do buy toys. Yes, and then also the little counter-programming Rough night with Scarlett Johansson and Kate McKinnon in a raunchy comedy So it's kind of brides mazes mazes kind of thing June 23rd Transformers the last night two plus hours of bad CGI explosions from Michael Bay.  So, you know, you didn't like Deride the makers of despicable me three like you did cars Well, but it is another paycheck is like why why why are we doing why are we doing more and more sequels because minions are popular? Yep, that's basically it The house Amy Poehler and Will Ferrell owner open a casino in the suburbs and wackiness ensues Now again, this is one that I think could be funny, right, but it won't be The talent's there, but not so much it'll be all like, you know Fart jokes. Yeah. Yeah July 7th spider-man homecoming Marvel Studios talent steps in to help this floundering franchise I'm actually looking forward to this Still not happy about hot Aunt May. Yes, but but consider hot Aunt May as compared to like hot Mrs. Grundy in the new Archie You have a good point July 14th war for the planet of the apes Just let me know when they get to the people worshipping the almighty bomb. That's what I want to see is the recreation of that We've seen so many previews for that plan. Oh, yes, they're they're flogging it. Yeah July 21st Duncork Christopher Nolan's epic tale of the World War two tipping point and of course it will be huge in scope You know, supposedly there's some scenes where he hired like thousands of extras I mean, it's not it's not CGI.  This is essentially Tyler Perry's the hangover Queen Latifah Jada Pinkett Smith That that type of humor Valerian and the city of a hundred planets. There's a mouthful of a title Luke Besson directs so you know it will be weird Luke Besson of course did the fifth element Yeah, a massive base has been built onto the International Space Station over 800 years. So it's now this massive place We're like different environments and all this for the different alien races and Okay, now, I assume this is based on a book. I don't know July 28th atomic blonde Shelly's thrown in a violent secret agent flick set at the fall of the Berlin Wall So we'll see how the reviews go on that. Okay, an Inconvenient sequel truth to power. Hey Al Gore, maybe the money spent on this could have been spent to elect people who could do something about it Yeah, just a thought. Yeah And the emoji movie. It's an animated movie from the people who brought you Fruit Ninja the movie or whatever it was Here's my money. Don't make me go see it. Yes, please. No August 4th the dark tower Idris Elba and Matthew McConaughey in an adaptation of Stephen King's book series And again, I think that would have been much better as a mini series on you know TV Yeah, that seemed like a better fit. Yeah, and then the final movies for the summer August 18th the Hitman's bodyguard Ryan Reynolds is the title character Samuel Jackson is the guy. He's guarding Gary Oldman is a dictator who wants to kill him And then finally Logan Lucky Channing Tatum and Adam Driver in a NASCAR heist from Steven Soderbergh Which apparently must be really great because you always put the best movies on at the end of August We still haven't hit Labor Day weekend when that comes out. So I suppose Could be a worse time Although I can count on one hand the number of movies. I really want to see I might see more just because it's nice to go To the movies during the summer. Yeah, but I Don't know if you're not at the movies you can check out our audio podcast How I got my wife to be comics on iTunes or on our website as a podcast network com from the pop culture bunker I'm Mindy and I'm Mark. Thanks for watching


ence sessions with teachers. I don't know if the committee has explored that. I do know. I recall when the committee were keen to come to my behaviour summits, teachers would not feel comfortable if they thought that their views were being recorded for purposes, like, for example, a parliamentary debate this afternoon. But they really benefit from private time with politicians listening to them. And the first school visit that I undertook was at the school that I taught in Edinburgh. And I asked my officials and Edinburgh council representatives to leave the room and the headteacher. So I could talk to the staff honestly about what was going on. That really helped to inform some of my thinking in the early days of taking up this post. So I think that Professor Hume is absolutely right. There is a cosy consensus. We need a bit more challenge. I welcome the challenge. That's a huge part of the job of being a Cabinet Secretary. But we also need to ensure that those critical voices in the system, such as Professor Hume, are listened to and are not managed. Because some of the critique in Scottish education we can't have a consensus on. And that's okay. To drive improvement, maybe we need to be a bit more honest about that. Because consensus has delivered to Mr Rennie's point, the status quo. Maybe the challenge around some of the deliverability here is actually how you unpick some of that. I'm very heartened by what you've said, Cabinet Secretary. And going back to the cosy conformity, I just wonder how actively she's looked at, you've looked at diversity in the various roles that are in place. And particularly cognitive diversity and kind of cultural diversity. The tradition is always that you only have experts in the chosen field, but actually bringing in people from other areas. As part of a mix of course, because you do need expertise. We know that the data tells us that that can be highly effective and indeed the data also tells us that when you only have a certain types of people from certain sectors that can be fairly disastrous thinking of the banking sector for example in private in 2008. So I'm just wondering what active consideration she's given to that in terms of roles. You might seek to a point or to refresh without mentioning getting any hairs running, obviously. I suppose in terms of diversity, we have our first female chair of the SQA, so that's good, some progress in the qualifications body. I think more broadly in terms of diversity, it's maybe something we need to give a bit more thought to, because if you're talking about the advice I receive as cabinet secretary, primarily that will come from civil servants in the Scottish Government and to a large extent in relation to learning and reform, it will come from Education Scotland. And Education Scotland, when I was staff member there many years ago, used to have a staff in complement that depended on succumbents. That was quite helpful system, I think, certainly in my experience for coming out of the classroom, having a refresh, having the ability to engage with pedagogy, changes to the curriculum and going back into the system. And the model that's now using that organisation is pivoted away from succumbents under, I think, the previous chief executive, so you now got quite a static organisation. And I think we need to think again about how you refresh some of the thinking that I hear as cabinet secretary to ensure it's fresh, it's coming from the classroom and it delivers and it can deliver some actual tangible improvements. So there's only so much I can do in terms of going out and engaging with teachers directly. I do that pretty much every week, but we need to, I think probably to your point about diversity. If you go into a school, teachers have got the solutions. They know what's working to Mr Rennie's point, they know what's not working, they know how they could fix it. So if you sit down with a group of teachers, they're always quite pragmatic, I think, in coming up with solutions. And there's something in that space to Ms Thompson's specific point on diversity about how we capture that in responding to Professor Haybridge's review, but the other reviews that are sitting on my desk at the current time, their feels light. And certainly they felt like when I was first appointed a bit of a disconnect between what we've got to in relation to reform in terms of policy and all the different people, I should say, who fed into those reports if we talk about consensus and actually the reality of being a classroom teacher. Thanks for that. And of course, it's not just as in schools, it's in the wider key stakeholder groupings as well. But moving on, one of the other things that's been talked about is empowerment in the system. And that kind of licence to operate, if you like. And of course, is how the Scottish Government can create an environment where teachers are empowered given that actually you've got a part in the middle, which is, you know, got cosla and local authorities. So it's almost like a question from a leadership perspective. What leadership can you put in place to ensure that teachers are empowered? And of course that translates all the way through the system as well. So I'd appreciate your thoughts about that. So back in 2018, when I think Mr Swinney, the cabinet secretary, we agreed a joint agreement between ourselves and cosla. And we have since that time taken forward a number of actions in relation to the empowerment agenda. I think the committee took evidence on this from, was it SLS? I know there was an interest in that from them, understandably, given their members. So we have the headteachers charter that looks at setting out how we could deliver a more empowered system. We have empowerment guidance for school leaders, for staff. You spoke as well, Ms Thompson, about the importance of other members that support school education and we need to be cognisant of the role of parents in that as well in the wider community too. Local authorities are really contingent actually on driving changes to the empowerment agenda. And in my experience, sometimes they can curtail that empowerment agenda. And I think the committee might have heard evidence to that. And I have certainly heard evidence to that end. Whereby sometimes local authorities take a monolithic approach to their area and it's a one-size-fits-all approach. And that can be really disempowering for headteachers. It can also mean that headteachers and actually middle leaders in schools, as I experienced in a previous life, can be disempowered in things like the recruitment process so they don't have the ability to appoint a member of staff to their team. These are the key decisions that you would expect middle leaders and headteachers to have control over. But when local authorities view teachers as numbers that can be moved around from school to school, they're not really thinking sometimes about what's best for the leadership in that school or for the teachers, I should say, in terms of their professional development and for the young people, too. So we have these resources that sit at national level and there is, of course, the headteachers charter. But I think to the substantive point that Michelle Thomson asked, convener, the answer has to be in that new relationship with local government and Verty House. So it has to be about encouraging a spirit of empowerment across the country that isn't happening in pockets. Because we know where empowerment does happen, it works well, staff will be valued. And actually, outcomes improve, too. Thank you very much. Thank you. You've spoken a lot there, cabinet secretary, about the different aspects of education reform and where they're all and how you're looking to feedback on some of your thoughts on that. So in terms of how you're going about your business right now, how is implementation and evaluation, evaluation rather, being embedded into how you're thinking and the approach that you're taking as we're looking at what can be quite a complex future in terms of juggling all the reform that's on-going? So, I think, as I set out in my opening statement, convener, when I was first appointed, I was very struck by a number of things. Well, first of all, the number of reports that were landing on my desk in quick succession. And then by the reality of what my former colleagues were experiencing in our classrooms. And we have seen some of that play out in the chamber in recent months. Changes to behaviour, attendance. And then curriculum reform. Sometimes it is put by proponents of curriculum reform that it can solve all of some of these challenges. I'm not necessarily sure I would accept that, but I think there are opportunities through curriculum reform for it to provide a more engaging curriculum in some instances. In terms of evaluation, we are listening and engaging with the profession. So there were the 1000 teachers that we engaged with towards the end of last year. We built in time as well. We asked local authorities to build in time and in service days in August. Some did so in October around about the changes being proposed by the Labour group but also about the national discussion which sometimes gets lost in the mix but actually sets out a vision for reform itself. And we will capture those views and ensure that they help to inform some of our thinking around about the legislative changes that will be required for both bodies. And of course that legislation will be coming forward immediately. So I don't want to talk to the specifics of it because it has not yet been laid in Parliament. Okay, thank you. Can I move to some questions from Pam Duncan-Clancy, please? Thank you, convener. And welcome back, cabinet secretary. I want to take the theme of support for teachers a bit further and to talk about empowerment but also from a bottom-up approach. So through your engagement with teachers, I'm sure you'll have heard about some concerns that they feel like decisions are taken out with their control quite far away from them and not really on the front line and then they're expected to deliver them in very difficult circumstances. So can I ask how is the Government balancing top-down leadership with a more bottom-up approach to curriculum reform? So a very good question, Ms Duncan-Clancy, if I may say so. I think in the previous session we talked about the pay dispute and what that did to relations between the Government and the teaching unions and the profession actually is pretty well known to the committee. It has freed relations and I have been trying to make things a bit better in the last eight months but we're going to have to work differently and we're going to have to work together and actually the professional associations want to be part of the solution in terms of education reform. So Ms Duncan-Clancy talks about bottom-up decision making and I suppose that perhaps talks to some of the challenge I was rehearsing in my response to Ms Thomson around about decisions being taken for you in education and feeling disempower from the process. Head teachers have a degree of flexibility but they can only exercise that if they are empowered to do so by their local authority. And quite often as a local authority might make a decision around about closing a building for example that a head teacher might have carried out a risk assessment on and be happy to have the building open but they might be overruled by their local authority. These kind of things are really demoralising and they I think can be quite challenging for leaders in schools but for classroom teachers some of the things that are taken out of your control it'd be helpful to hear a little bit more from Ms Duncan-Clancy. There are certain things that are taken out of your control as a classroom teacher. You might not have control of your timetable for example the classes that present in front of you. I'm talking as a secondary specialist but primary teachers will talk about the year group perhaps that they might be planning for. Some of these things are not in their gift. So if there are ideas that Ms Duncan-Clancy has around about how we can build that into the reform agenda I'm happy to hear them. I do think to some extent the empowerment agenda has you know it was a I suppose a creation of the previous Parliament and we need to not forget about some of that work it has to support education reform in the here and now and I think probably returning to refresh people's understanding particularly local authorities would be helpful. I also think though to the point about the teaching workforce we resolved the paid dispute but we didn't talk about the other challenges that the profession are facing and that I think speaks to the challenge that Ms Duncan-Clancy has illustrated whether that be on workload additional support needs behaviour. I'm sure we'll come on to talk about these things if not now then this afternoon but we need to resolve that relationship around about conditions and I don't think what we got to last year did. Thank you and I appreciate that answer and I think part of the concern as you'll be aware is the time to be able to engage with any of this and so if I can say so and I'm a paraphrase in the cabinet secretary I'm sure she'll set me right if I'm wrong. When she said earlier that support for the reforms among the teaching profession could be waning I think might be the most polite way to say it from the eager appetite for radical reform that maybe existed in 2021 do you think that might have something to do with the fact that they've got immediate challenges right now in the classroom? Yes absolutely so and I also sorry to build on that I think school post pandemic is being expected our schools to mop up quite a lot of society's challenge so we've talked already from Mr Rennie about the poverty-related attainment gap it's not the poverty-related attainment gap exists it's not all of schools creation and yet we expect schools to mop up all of the challenge here we need to have a much more holistic approach and actually part of this I think relates to how we budget across the Scottish Government we need to have a much more holistic understanding of the inputs we're putting in as a Government to the system to try and to shut up because we cannot expect our schools to do everything and they have I mean I joked earlier on about my being a a lightning rod for political challenge but schools to some extent are expected to do so much more now even when Ms Duncan Glancy and I were at school you know the expectation now on schools when I go into schools and I see the extra things they are doing for our young people I am blown away and yes part of that is funded by the additionality from PEF and SAC but part of it I think is a societal expectation that school a teacher put it to me a few weeks school will step into the breach where other services can step back school is a constant in a child's life so I think I understand and I agree with Ms Duncan Glancy's point and I think we need to reconsider how we can pull other services into supporting schools because they can't do it alone and we are expecting more and more from them and I agree with the cabinet secretary on that point and being in the position that she is what does she intend to do about it? Well I think part of it and I think I outlined this in my response to Ms Thomson in the previous session is Verity House it has to be about a new way of working between local authorities and government and that will mean to the point that Walter Humes made challenge between government and local authorities but accountability and honesty about where that responsibility rests so we need to disrupt the poverty related attainment gap that has to be about a funded and a well supported education system but it isn't just about the education system it's about the round so for example there are a number of schools now that have shared services with other so whether that's social work or other support services from the third sector for example I think that approach can be really beneficial to schools who are trying to wear so many hats and respond to so many challenges that they just can't do all of this on their own and I think there needs to be a greater recognition of that at local level and to Ms Duncan Glancy's question what am I going to do about it well my response to that would be that through the reform process we look to give a bit more clarity and a bit more of a steer to what the ways in which schools are able to be supported so it's not just about us thinking narrowly as we're doing today understandably about the education budget we need to think about the other parts of budgets say she during the budget negotiation process that can help to disrupt some of the challenge here because I can't recall who quoted the health secretary earlier I think it may have been you convener there are interventions that the health secretary can make from his budget that will help to close the poverty-related attainment gap and vice versa I'm sure but there is an opportunity I think to have a refocusing of how we think about the role of education through reform thank you that was the I appreciate that Michelle Thompson oh I'm sorry made that reference to the sorry have you concluded just finally just finally briefly okay thank you and those conversations across government will be very interesting particularly around local government budgets I would imagine finally then given what we've just discussed is the cabinet secretary concerned as I am that there's a reduction to about 7.7 million from the support for teachers budget this year given what we've just discussed so that reduction as I understand it is a demand-led budget line in the main and it is from initial teacher education places that were not filled so there was an oversupply of places this year that calculation is set out I think by the SFC but that's where that reduction has come from so there shouldn't be an adverse impact in that regard these are places that were simply not filled thank you in detail of another demand-led budget line they're all coming out in the wash as the conversation progresses today can I move to Stephanie Callaghan now please thank you Stephanie thanks very much Cymru I want to ask about curriculum content and we heard from Professor Stobart about not learning a vacuum and that need for the mastery of information facts and basics in order to be able to think about them and use them so I'm wondering is it the intention of the reviews that there will be more explicit guidance on the content of the curriculum in broad general education and what's the role of government and its agencies in providing guidance on curriculum content so we don't have a prescriptive curriculum in Scotland under curriculum for excellence and we might come on to talk about some of the challenge here in relation to what that means in terms of subjects but there is flexibility in the broad general education because of the theory of CFE which essentially allows teachers and local decision makers and teachers to decide on the curriculum content for their local context you asked Ms Callaghan about specific guidance and of course Education Scotland has a role to provide that guidance sometimes the challenge to government is we don't need more guidance we need more prescription and towards the end of last year I was listening to some of the critique around PISA and there are some advocates of us bringing in much more prescription back to the curriculum in Scotland some who say there has been too much flexibility I think we need to balance that very carefully that's why of course I've committed to the curriculum improvement cycle starting with mass education I have to say predicated on the PISA results but also looking and considering some of the examination results from national five masks this year too we need to improve the delivery of the mass curriculum we will then move on to look at English and Literacy more broadly but that explicit guidance can be provided by Education Scotland I suppose my question to the committee and something for us to consider in the wider debate about qualifications reform is is that what the system is looking for explicit guidance is it looking for prescription because the way in which we deliver CFE does not prescribe curriculum content but some advocate that we should have a level of prescription now there's a tension here between the defining principles of actually curriculum for excellence and how it operates as a curriculum but maybe these are things we need to consider in the broader mix of qualification reform and I'd be keen to hear views on that because there are some in the system who say we have gone too far in relation to flexibility and actually what teachers are looking for is a bit more prescription a bit more direction to help them set out the learning outcomes for their young people no it's really good to hear that you're looking at that balance I think you're absolutely right on it there I also wanted to ask about curriculum review as well about will that include an on-going focus and wellbeing and specifically on anxiety I'm interested in whether we can look at imparting knowledge on why young people continue to feel anxious and about giving young people themselves a perhaps a deeper understanding of what's going on in their brain why they're anxious and the tools to actually tackle that perhaps effectively so almost a kind of early intervention if you like is well to stop that progressing into something more serious Yeah I mean I think Ms Callum for her question she'll know that we prioritise support for wellbeing in our schools through the provision of councillors in every secondary school and wellbeing in terms of curriculum for excellence and the expectations of that curriculum is a responsibility for all so all teachers have a responsibility to ensure the wellbeing of their young people and she spoke about the anxiety particularly in our young people I'm always struck by yes the impact of the pandemic on all of us but particularly on our young people and how that has impacted on their development on their brain actually and how they consume information we've had great debates in the chamber in recent times about the use of mobile phones I saw some members on them earlier on during the budget session and I think we need to be mindful that the way in which our young people consume information the way in which we all consume information has changed and that can also lead to an increase in relation to anxiety I think we need to look at this issue in a bit more detail part of the challenge in relation to behaviour and changes in behaviour I think is also informed by an increasing sense of anxiety and worry and actually there was some evidence that we published last year about our young people feeling safe returning to school after the pandemic and most of them I think it was in the pisa yeah it was in pisa enjoying being back at school enjoying the stability that that brought which was certainly heartening to see we want our young people to enjoy coming to school and we don't want them to be anxious going out into the world without those support so it's a responsibility of all teachers should be supporting and they do support their young people in relation to their wellbeing but I do think more broadly we need to consider anxiety in our response to changes to behaviour and how we can better support it I don't know clearly if you want to say more on no I think no you've covered it I'm happy with that I think it's good that you're going to be looking at that in more detail thank you thank you Stephanie Cahillad can we move now to questions from Ruth Maguire please thank you convener and good morning again cabinet secretary regarding the curriculum I'd like to talk about breadth of choice in secondary the committee heard from Dr Marina Shapira and Professor Mark Priestley about their research last year and if I can share a quote with you Dr Shapira told the committee we found some absolutely appalling practices such as channeling young people into higher performing subjects discouraging them from taking up subjects in which they were not predicted to perform well and abandoning whole subjects that were deemed to be low performing but that might have been very important for providing a holistic well rounded education for us the culture of performativity was one of the main issues standing in the way of successful implementation of curriculum for excellence listening to some of your previous interactions there perhaps particularly Willie Rennie it struck me that the first part of that quote could actually have been plucked from any time in education is not necessarily specific to curriculum for excellence and I think there's maybe just a bit of a challenge in that you'll be aware of that research I'd be interested to hear your reflections on it I suppose they spoke about a reduction in the number of national qualifications entries at S4 compared to the period prior to the introduction of curriculum for excellence they spoke about significant curricular fragmentation in many schools with pupils having a large number of teachers I think as well going back to your bit there about prescription versus a sort of open ended thing could it be the case that without having prescription that there is that temptation to steer into subjects that just perform well for the schools Could be I suppose my reflection I'm trying to recall the name of the academic Mr Greer may recall we certainly in 2018-19 took evidence on this exact topic at this exact table from an academic who was a former head teacher do you recall Mr Greer? And he brought his spreadsheet He did bring his spreadsheet Yes I can't remember his name sorry I think he was a friend of Ian Gray so I was suspicious of him but anyway I said that a second So at that point in 2018-19 we already had the evidence talked about subjects reducing in S4 the counter argument to which would be well we have a broader curriculum now up to the end of S3 but actually I suppose I'll go back to my point to Willie Rennie he asked me what's wrong with Scottish education well nothing's wrong with it we've got a strong education system but we didn't fix the break between BGE and the senior face and that is part of the challenge in relation to course choice because this is about the practical delivery and this is why in my response to Professor Hayward's review I am thinking very carefully about how this will work in schools because when Miss McGuire and I were at school you would sit maybe seven, eight in some schools in nine standard grades but across the country there would be probably in the seven or eight region we now have you could walk into a school down the road they might be sitting would be five qualifications and in another school they might have adhered to the 222 model the traditional model and not really moved very much away from their theory of thinking around about the curriculum at all because they want to stick to Miss McGuire's point around about performativity and they believe that's the best way to deliver results for their young people there's a challenge in that I guess it goes back to the points I was making around about whether or not we have a prescriptive curriculum in terms of entitlements as well but I do think part of the response to curriculum changes and updating and responding to some of the curriculum improvement cycle work has to address the gap between the BGE and the senior face and if I can be really very niche orientated given I had to write a timetable in a previous life the hours that the SQA currently ascribes to national qualifications mean that you cannot timetable more than now Mr Greer will keep me right but I think it's five subjects in S4 unless you start delivery of the national qualifications in S3 that breaks the BGE so we need to have an answer to this link between so most schools will start the delivery of their national qualifications subjects a bit earlier in S3 to account for that our delivery associated with the qualification but our new qualifications organisation has got to talk to the folk of the right timetables and schools and I think in the past there's been a disconnect never the two shall meet now we need to think about the practicalities of this because if we're unpicking the qualifications these are the things that teachers will be responding to and to your point Mr Greer about S4 entries that's how we look to I suppose give a bit more equality I suppose across provision and that's Professor Haber's challenge around about entitlements so there's an opportunity through reform to fix some of the challenge in the system just now without necessarily unpicking all of it and I think part of that is fixing where we get to between the broad general education and the implementation of the senior phase and there's lots of ways in which you can avoid the two term dashes it's often referred to you can deliver qualifications across two years you know many schools actually are already doing that because they think it delivers better outcomes for their young people but it will also move away from a system which has three years of exams and as the committee will know and will have taken evidence on we like a test in Scotland and there's an argument that we need to broaden out what we constitute as assessment and how we measure outcomes for young people thank you the cabinet secretary was being very generous indicating that we might have been at school at the same time I think I was a tiny bit ahead of you but thank you I shall not comment, Mr Bear she was very very polite of course that comment is on you I suppose thinking about that when I was at school you took a science one of the three a language for a number of years that doesn't happen now and I reflect we had the members debate yesterday about modern languages in Aberdeen University and I wonder if we're not if we might have a situation where if young people are being funneled to where they're likely to perform well or where there's perhaps not the demand so it might be hard to take modern languages in schools that some of that breadth and less prescription is actually could narrow that aspect of things for for young people yeah I mean the counter to that is in the past we used to compel young people to take subjects that they absolutely hated so chemistry yeah so I mean you go and speak to well indeed I have flashback to standardy chemistry myself but you go and speak to secondary teachers and they would tell you stories about teaching some of their classes in S4 who hated their subject and didn't want to be there so we need to be a bit careful here because some young people don't want to necessarily study physics and chemistry until the end of S4 and yet the way in which their timetable offer might be constructed suggests that's how those are essentially I suppose they are I suppose funneled in that direction at some schools though I have to say are really good at building a timetable around about pupil choice so I've seen it done in schools before whereby they ask their young people what they want to study and they build the timetable according to pupil choice that's a much more democratic way of building a timetable others use a more traditional method which looks at how many staff and teachers they've got and timetables them accordingly it's good to hear you say that I think we've hear quite a lot about what teachers are looking for and that would not diminish teachers experience and their importance in this but I guess it's about what young people and children look to and I think that put on demand as an important one so I remember when I was teaching in 2015 I had two or three young people who wanted to study advanced modern studies I mean there is a question about whether or not you should run a course with three people and one well-paid middle leader in a school so another school in the town in which I taught at that time was delivering advanced modern studies so the young people went to that school to receive that qualification so demand has a role to play and I think we should be mindful of that as well but the other point that I think Ms McGuire mentioned was around about discouraging setting subjects who you know they might not do well in when I was teaching in Edinburgh I remember we had a whole school policy at that time which was that if a pupil did not attain 33.33% in their prelim they could not sit the final exam and I remember in 2011 a headteacher at that time coming to a whole staff meeting to talk about us moving away from this policy because the city had a policy informed by Scottish Government policy I should say to close the gap and that meant that these young people should have the opportunity to sit a final exam that was a real culture shifter I should say the staff in that school including myself at that time which was essentially well if they haven't attained this they should not be allowed the opportunity to sit the qualification we have moved so far beyond that point now that we are now presenting young people for qualifications now you could account your argument to that Ms McGuire might be some of these young people might not be ready for qualifications I think the answer in this is continuous assessment that is one of the recommendations that flows from Hayward that's how you track monitor and you support your young people throughout the year and you ensure they're ready for any final qualification but we also need to think about the percentage associated with the final qualification at the moment we have most qualifications having a high waiting to that final exam that puts a lot of pressure on young people so the argument from Hayward is that we look more generally at how we allocate marks I suppose throughout the year to continuous assessment and I think we should be mindful of the opportunities that provides us in that regard as well okay I think we've covered a number of the factors that might make it challenging for schools to provide a broad offered and senior phase but you have answered this in some part but I just wondered if you had any more to say about what Government might do to help mitigate any of those barriers or challenges that schools face so in part some of the barriers that schools face I suppose go back to this challenge between prescription and flexibility we have an extremely flexible curriculum some say it's too flexible I think we only mandate maths in English until the end of S4 so everything else is optional and perhaps and I'm keen to hear from the committee that's something we should consider it's not in one of the many reports on my desk at the current time I don't think it's a direct recommendation from Hayward around about prescription it kind of would fly in the face of CFE but the argument for flexibility also has to meet the needs of learners and sometimes there's a challenge there because sometimes I know from experience courses run because it depends on which staff you've got in front of you that's not necessarily meeting the needs of those learners so we need to think through reform about how we can deliver on those entitlements that Professor Hayward talked to and perhaps that means us looking at some of the thorny issues around about prescription I think it will be challenging and I do I suppose go back to thinking about that fourth year class with a number of young people in front of you who don't want to be there and don't want to study your subject but there is something about us having a breadth of offer in our curriculum and CFE gives that breadth of offer until the end of S3 where it's meant to how do we ensure that throughout the qualifications we've got a number of supplementaries on this theme if we can keep them brief that's okay Liam not Liam Ross and then Liam I was looking directly at Ross and so on thanks, not even a supplementary but just for the sake of the official report I found the name is Professor Jim Scott at Dundee University who gave the evidence that the cabinet secretary and I heard last session and what he found was that it was just over half of schools in Scotland were offering six courses in S4 about a third were offering seven about one in 11 were offering eight courses and there were three or four offering five so presumably that was the three or four who were doing a two year higher thank you for that Ross Greer Liam Kerr yes thank you just very briefly I thought Ruth McGraw raised a very important point there about the debate last night on modern languages the one of the things that came out from a number of contributors was the importance of modern languages both to the young people involved but also to our global ambitions and to our economy that is the context where one and a half thousand fewer pupils are studying languages at that five and a thousand fewer over a thousand fewer are taking it higher does the cabinet secretary agree with the importance of modern languages and if so what are you doing about those figures well I'm not going to use my rusty higher French in responding to Mr Kerr but on this issue at the end of at the end of oh mon am I okay on this issue at the end of last year there were a number of different reports around about first of all the provision of languages courses at Aberdeen University I met with the principal actually to discuss this very issue towards the end of last year and as I understand it the issue at that university although it is an issue for that university who are independent of government is dependent on footfall so they don't have the numbers driving the availability of courses anymore but I accept the challenge around about languages I have asked to engage with education Scotland on this very point I met with officials actually last week to look again at our languages policy and how we're supporting that we've done a lot of work in our primary schools around about the one plus two model to support the delivery of languages learning which sees our young people learning two languages and I think there's more in that space we could look to support but Mr Kerr's substantive point goes back to Ms McGuire's point around about whether or not you prescribe in the curriculum that languages learning should be until the end of S4 that is not the curriculum we currently have if that is a view that Mr Kerr would like to explore with me in relation to qualification reform I'm happy to hear it he and I both have a qualification in languages I actually found it very helpful in conversing with Mary Gougeon's husband of course who comes from France but in seriousness it's helpful to have a language a second language it helps your development I spoke to a friend of mine who was a former German teacher recently and she spoke about the joy of languages learning and I think we need to be mindful of some changes to curriculum for excellence so I suppose to go back to Mr Rennie's what's wrong with Scottish education it's the link between BGE and senior phase we need to consider but we also need to consider the role of subjects and actually in a secondary school where we have subject specialists with degrees and teaching qualifications to deliver them they need to be part of the solution here and I do think we need to be mindful of changes to CFE that might be driving uptake or changes to uptake in our courses where we have less language learning than we would have had in the past because when Mr Kerr and I were at school although he's obviously older than I am we had to study a language until the end of S4 so we probably all in this room have a qualification maybe not Mr Greer from S4 in languages learning but the generation who follow us will not because they are not compelled to do so by a curriculum which is flexible so the challenge to that is or the counter to that is you prescribe so that would be very very different to the curriculum we have at the current time but if that's a view that the committee holds I'm happy to hear it and obviously we'll have a wider debate around about qualifications in the next few weeks Yes, thank you You spoke in your remarks to Ruth Maguire about somehow some schools can timetable the variety so I was interested we've also heard in some of our sessions prior to Christmas about the role of AI in education do you think there might be scope to investigate ways that AI can help with that timetabling dilemma and are we looking to find solutions because I think there may be something that may be available Yes, I think that AI gives us a number of opportunities I know the committee's written to me specifically on that so I will provide a substantive response in that written response but obviously through the Hayward review she makes a number of recommendations Professor Hayward in relation to AI and in my conversations with Graham Donaldson during the summer we spoke about how AI could be used in the future to reduce teacher workload so I think that these are the things we need to explore through reform timetabling is an extremely political subject with any secondary teacher you may speak to as a committee we used to joke that a deputy in a former school I worked in was locked in a cupboard for a week to write the timetable because it was such a stressful job to do to pull all that together so if there are opportunities through AI then I'm very keen to explore that particularly in relation to reducing teacher workload and I would see a role for Education Scotland in that regard I know the committee took evidence I think from Olly Bray on AI but Education Scotland should have a key role to play in developing guidance that can help to reduce teacher workload whether that be on timetabling or on other issues that AI might be able to support I feel as though we're at the beginning of our journey in relation to AI it's changing every day and the qualifications reform as well will need to be developed in response to some of those changes because it's so fast-paced the university sector has a lot though we can learn from too but I'm happy to give a substantive response to the committee on AI specifically as I know your response to me our last session where we're talking about teacher contact time and there's a bit of pressure from one of the members about what if they could it's one of these spend to save agenda items you know the investment of the technology could make significant impact and as you've said the pace of change in the sphere is mind blowing so can I move now I'm looking to Bill Kidd please thank you very much and thank you convener when I was at school and the cabinet secretary was a senior teacher I thought I'd get that and first there actually thank you no can I just ask if you don't mind about how the performance of schools should be measured on the basis that there's in many places a culture of performativity you know how the school does is what really matters to the greatest extent and whether that could be removed and decisions about pupils learning and certification are focused on what's best for the pupil rather than how the school registers is being successful you know that it's important that schools are there in order to provide the very best that they can for the community and for the pupils who attend rather than being able to actually have themselves marked up as being the place to go or whatever you know but that's the reality is it not at the current time Mr Kidd and I think we all accept and we can see that part of the challenge here I suppose is to some extent and I may pass to clear on this it's the way in which we measure performance so the national improvement framework that we have and government looks at a broader range of measures than local authorities look at they will look at the five hires measure and I think so there's a bit of a disconnect there that we're working to resolve I might just pass to clear on that specific point around about that variation sure so in relation to that to the national improvement framework the basket of measures that are covered in that cover a broad range of trying to look at the entirety of performance and the purpose of having the national improvement framework is to have that golden thread from the classroom right back up to looking at a national level at Scottish education's performance and improvement journey we are working closely with colleagues in local government and COSLA around the different measure that local authorities use the local government benchmark framework and to see how much we can pull that together because that rounded measure that it's not just about five hires or any one particular measure that can really assess a school's performance so that's something that we're looking at very closely at the minute but if I can just observe there's a bit of a disconnect between some of the arguments around a culture performativity and then PISA I mean I have to be honest with the committee PISA has a raw dataset that tells the government a very challenging story and if the culture is of if we're moving away from our culture performativity then I have to ignore PISA I don't think so I think that dataset tells me a story that I need to respond to and actually that's one of the reasons we've rejoined other international surveys that we had previously not been part of for a number of years to give me more data and if we go back to I think I referenced this in the chamber at the end of term in the last education debate we had Mr Kerr and it was around about the role of PISA and the history to it which was at the time an American president in the 1980s looking for objective data from states around about education performance that's the origins of PISA it's about driving improvement so I don't think you should ignore necessarily culture performativity okay I hear it's some of the challenge here but we also need to improve and PISA gives us a dataset to help support improvement and that's why we're investing in these other surveys but it's why we need to engage in the substantive detail and so do local authorities around about their responsibilities in terms of their outcomes for young people I think there's a key difference between performativity so high school responds to the measures that they think are about their performance and actually the broader improving the performance of Scottish education and that's what we need to focus on okay well thanks for much on that I mean that's important as you say to remember the overall picture which is which actually is that we want to improve Scottish education to as great a degree as possible and just wondering about how that always relates to what is best for the individual pupils who attend a school and how their aims and aspirations can be improved upon as well I think the best intervention you can make or the best investment of government can make is in a quality teaching workforce that's why of course as we have the best paid teachers in the UK we want to work with the profession on supporting them that's why I think Ms Duncan Glancy's points in the last session around about class contact were absolutely spot on and I support her in that endeavour doesn't mean I don't have challenges in relation to my budget but I hope she heard from me that I think reducing class contact is part of how you can improve a learner journey throughout their education system supporting the workforce that educate them it's also one of the reasons that I made an announcement around about the centre for teaching excellence and I see some opportunity through that model to help support the profession in terms of their professional development I gave the example I think earlier on to I think to Michelle Thomson it may be to another member sorry around the role of education Scotland in the past that would allow you to come out of school and to refresh your knowledge we've moved away from that model I want the centre for excellence to give opportunities to staff to really promote professional learning and to encourage I suppose and embed that spirit of professionalism that's already in the teaching profession and I think that's how you support young people is by investing in your teachers okay thank you very much on it thank you thank you Ben Macpherson please now thank you thank you okay dinner um just before I ask my question it's anecdotal but I think what the cabinet secretary said around conditions earlier and wanting to address some of the concerns from the profession on that was were really well made points certainly during the pay dispute the vast vast majority of emails that I received as a constituent MSP were more about conditions than they were actually about pay I also think what's been stated around taking the teaching profession with us so to speak with regard to reform is so important I was also working in a school when critical for excellence was introduced and certainly the anecdotal feedback then was it was perhaps slightly rushed and much of that was due to political pressure so I think all of us would be well served and would serve our constituents better if we keep that in mind as we yes work towards reform at a reasonable pace but do it in a way that is considerate of the pressures on the profession so I just think those were important points that you made cabinet secretary moving to the question I wanted to ask which relates to the fact that reform isn't just about practicalities and processes but it's also about approach and attitudes and we've heard much through the different reports and through the different discussions and evidence sessions that we've undertaken that have been published around parity of esteem and it's so important for how we meet the needs of the 21st century and reform in that regard so how is the Government ensuring that parents and carers and family members have a strong and better understanding in many instances of the different learning pathways and opportunities available for children and young people into apprenticeships as well as further and higher education into the workplace and how are we going to change the sometimes unhelpful but the various examples where there is kind of prejudice in our society that some routes are better than others we've done a lot in that space but we need to do more Yeah I thank Mr McPherson for his question on CFE being rushed I actually I think Mr Russell those cabinet secretary when we implemented changes to curriculum qualifications and I think we delayed it by a couple of years in response to the teaching profession I was out of the classroom at the time but I was writing resources to support the implementation of the qualifications so we did delay it I think two years and then we delayed the implementation of the new hire as well at the behest of the teaching unions but I agree with Mr McPherson the premise behind how you implement qualifications reform we need to think very carefully about how we deliver that on the ground sometimes there's a bit of a disconnect between what cabinet secretary or ministers may say in the chamber and the reality in our communities and particularly given that education is delivered locally we need to really think about how this is delivered and communicated and how staff are supported how they're given the time to develop to I remember trying to write support materials for the new qualifications because the SQA had published part of the documentation we need to think about the role of the new qualifications organisation in all of this and I think I'll go back to Louise Hayward's observations that this is going to take time and we need to set out that trajectory that plan for implementation of changes to qualifications in the future because it will be a big change for the profession if I accept all of the recommendations in that report and I'm keen to hear views on that when we have a wider debate on reform, approach and attitudes on parity of esteem I think the SEQF have got a really strong role to play here I was in a school in Glasgow last week whereby I think I spoke about this in the previous session they had a number of young people involved in the school ambassador programme their accreditation of qualifications is really important in relation to setting out the value that qualifications have to parents and carers so that parents and carers understand that a higher English might be benchmarked to something that has the same number of points attached to it so that's hugely important and the young people at that school in Glasgow were telling me about the approach that their school uses so they have careers fairs they have their teachers sitting at different desk telling them about qualifications that they might never have heard of so I think I'm looking at Claire but she wasn't there I don't know there was a Newark, Nairi Llyra well from memory there was a qualification in criminology and one of the young people there was telling me that she's now going to university to study criminology because she had this approach to qualifications from one of our teachers and they told them about the use of this qualification and what it could lead on to in terms of future careers so I sometimes think we prescribe too much and we've had a conversation about flexibility but actually schools are doing this work anyway so part of the reform agenda needs to pull together a bit more consistency I think the skills development Scotland obviously in the career service in particular have a role to play here I was in Glenrothes High School in my own constituency before school they have an embedded representative from SDS in that school careers officer rather and he knows all of the kids in that school and there are kids that have left that school and come back to him for advice and he was embedded in that school community not every careers advisor works in that way and I know Mr Day spoke at the committee last week about the role of career service and how that might change in the future this is why I think my opening comments you can't divorce what's happening in that space from wider school reform the careers parity of esteem has to be part of our response too I think we do have a much better understanding now of parity of esteem than we did when certainly Mr McPherson and I were definitely at school at the same time although I think he might be younger than me I think it has changed but there is more we all need to do in that space but when I go into schools I'm always blown away by the number of qualifications the breadth of offer I know we've talked about narrowing curriculum to some extent and perhaps if you consider traditional subjects there is a truth in that but you could look at subjects like criminologies that are now delivered in schools like higher photography for example there are a range of other qualifications being delivered in schools now which I think speaks to Mr McPherson's ask around parity of esteem and the value that schools place on these qualifications I think we do need to get more comfortable as a society with the differentiation of positive destinations and going back to the discussion earlier and what's been in the public discourse in the last few days around university place numbers if more young people for example go into apprenticeships or directly into the workplace because that's the right route for them for them to flourish then I think we need to get comfortable that that might have an impact on the number of young people going to university and that isn't necessarily a negative thing so we're at the beginning of that well we're not at the beginning it's developed to a reasonable extent but I think we've got some way to go to really get to a place where whatever the young person thinks is best for them and their abilities we celebrate that as a society and help them on their journey Absolutely and I recognise the member's point I think there's still a hierarchy that we haven't yet got to where we should in relation to parity of esteem and I know James Wethers makes these points pretty visivrously in his report we need to better understand that what I would just reflect is that I think our schools are doing a really good job just now around those pathways and around apprenticeships the number of schools I now visit where colleges are coming in to deliver some courses or young people are leaving in the afternoon so England Authentic High School they were going to the college in the afternoon to study a course in childcare at the college in England Authentic you know these things in the past might not have happened there is much greater connectivity across the education system than ever before If I agree with that and I think your point around consistency and the minister made these same points last week around young people being aware of what's available to them is the crucial next step Absolutely that and that's why the career service and SDS of course have a key role to play in that endeavour and it's also why we can't divorce school reform from the wider skills agenda that Mr Daze is leading on I am conscious of time and I know we've still got quite a bit to go through actually and I do want to get it all covered today Ross Greer, please Thanks Thanks Cymru, cabinet secretary I've been interested in getting a sense from you on direction of travel around the new body specifically the new qualification body and governance arrangements there's been a lot of criticism I've been one of the people who's made that criticism of the governance structure of the SQA the fact that for example there's three management consultants on the board but only one current teacher and I'm interested in your thoughts on the balance in governance arrangements between having individuals appointed to board positions who have knowledge and experience of the area that public body is responsible for so in this case knowledge and experience of education versus corporate governance because both are important my feeling is we don't currently get that balance right and I've been interested in your sense of what are your aspirations for the board and governance arrangements of the new bodies? So I think on the face of it I think Mr Greer's point about getting it right is an important one We do have a new chair of course in the SQA and I think Shirley-Rodra's will be key to driving some of the cultural change that we need to see in the organisation We do need to change our ways of working and part of that is having teacher voice embedded in the governance arrangement so we will embed that through having teacher expertise on the board in a way that perhaps it might not have been prescribed previously and I've been very keen to set that out in relation to our governance expectations Claire may want to say more in relation to the role of teacher voice in that but certainly as we move to a new qualifications organisation teacher voice has to inform particularly how qualifications are developed, delivered and to be fair to the SQA teachers are involved in the writing of qualifications just now it's a classroom teachers that promote to teachers who mark exam scripts every year they write the exams so they are involved in the qualifications but in the governance challenge I think Mr Greer identifies an opportunity and I think in the draft governance arrangements that we've been considering there will be an opportunity to embed teacher voice more so and the voice of learners additionally so just to add to that I think there's a balance between the appropriate governance for a non-departmental public body but there is an ability through the legislation to make some clear recommendations around the membership of the board appointments to embed that teacher voice as the cabinet secretary has said and then also through the wider governance arrangements both through whatever new advisory council that's in place but also whatever committee structures that support the overarching board to ensure that that teacher practitioner voice and indeed learner voice is embedded and is clear in terms of that overarching governance so that's the aim Thanks Raj, I think that learner voice as well is teacher voice really important there and there are there's other perspectives parents and carers for example who can make a valuable addition cabinet secretary you made the point earlier of the model that Education Scotland used to use more of seconding staff in and moved away from more recently do you see opportunities for that not just in the reformed Education Scotland but also in the new qualifications body perhaps the inspectorate you mentioned that there's not enough grip in the system at the moment part of the criticism to take the current inspection system is that many of those going in to inspect schools professional as they are have not themselves been in the classroom for quite some time do you think that there's more of a role for secondment of classroom teachers so that you've got people constantly involved in our national education bodies who have had that direct personal recent experience of being in a classroom Yes, undoubtedly and I think actually to be fair to the inspectorate side of Education Scotland there's already quite a well development associate inspector programme which these head teachers and senior leaders seconded out for school inspections so they might accompany for example a team with the inspectorate on a secondary school inspection that's hugely important I think to informing policy but it's also important for their development as well and I think to Mr Greer's point certainly when I was in Education Scotland so this is over 10 years ago now there were a number of people who may not been in a school for some time and who had not delivered curriculum for excellence and that's quite challenging I think when you're inspecting a school and you've not yourself delivered the qualification so there is a really important opportunity to better give professional development opportunities to staff one of the best I've spoken about this in committee when we were last on committee together one of the best pieces of professional development I understood was being an SK marker for five years having an understanding of the national standard made me a better teacher not everyone has an opportunity to mark for the exam organisation you need to be let out of school your head teacher would need to find cover for you and in a time where budgets are tight that can be challenging so we need to think again about the opportunities that qualifications body gives to the profession because it's not just about being a service that runs qualifications it has to better work with the profession and obviously I wasn't imposed during the pandemic but I think a large part of the frustration in the system was that disconnects between the qualifications organisation and the profession that didn't just come about I should say as a result of Covid but that had built up over many many years that's right you've actually preempted my last question was going to be about exactly that point you shouldn't have to be an SK marker to really understand the grading system and yet we've had a lot of that feedback you've made exactly that point already so I'm happy to finish there convener given time and can I move finally to questions from Liam Kerr please yes thank you convener on a similar note actually the consultation on the future education bill which would abolish and replace the SQA closed in December now previously the Scottish Government's announced that an SQA replacement would be in place by I think 2025 is the work that we've discussed today on curriculum or assessment reform dependent on reform of the SQA and if so what are the timescales no it is not so the curriculum improvement work I committed to in December is starting now so we're getting going already with the mass element in relation to curriculum improvement I expect to have recommendations with me towards the middle of the year and then we're going to go out and test it with the profession they have to be part of October yeah they have to be part of informing the improvement so just because I have delayed reform in relation to legislating for the new bodies doesn't mean we can't get going with curriculum improvement and bluntly to Mr Kerr's point I think we have to given the results from PISA at the end of last year very grateful what does the cabinet secretary sticking with the SQA what does the cabinet secretary define as the improved outcomes from having a new qualifications agency I'm not sure if I'll be able to give Mr Kerr a definitive list of outcomes I suppose but I do think that a new qualifications agency to my point to Mr Greer has to work better with the teaching profession and in my experience in school and actually on this committee that was a major barrier in many instances to improving outcomes for our young people you know one of the best meetings I've had in recent times I think I referenced this in the chamber in December was with the Scottish Association of Geography Teachers and they came to me with a plan they said we don't need to completely throw out the whole qualification but here are some changes we think would make the geography qualification more relevant they taught me through it I confess I'm not a geographer but the suggestions they put forward were eminently sensible and you could go to any professional association from any subject area in the secondary curriculum and you would have exactly the same feedback that is the missing link at the current time in my experience that the profession is not engaged enough as it should be in the development of the qualifications and actually if you go back to Ken Muir's report these are the things that we need to fix in relation to the outcomes from the new qualifications organisation indeed and noting that does the SQA as currently constituted have a role in developing the future operating model of a new qualifications agency itself at the current time yeah so it does the SQA take a role in what the future would look like of its sorry of itself as an organisation or the qualifications so forgive me Cymru does the SQA so there are various bodies there are various people involved in developing what a new operating model of a new qualifications agency might look like is the SQA involved also in developing that new model the current model the new one that will replace it it's feeding so yes it's feeding into it but I think to the member's point I think he can correct me if I'm wrong when I assume post I wanted to introduce an element of objectivity into this process because I think the critique to government previously was that we can't allow organisations to reform themselves which I accept that's why we've made some changes to the governance approach which looks at bringing actually some of Mr Day's work into the same space which looks at me chairing a board whereby these organisations that have to reform all come together so I think that may give some answer to the member's question of course this organisation is going to not disappear to some extent because there will still need to be a qualifications organisation and we will still need a body that will run and administer our qualifications so they have to feed into the process but to the wider point and I suppose the cultural shift the organisation needs to become a bit more fleet of foot from my experience and that's why we will embed teacher voice learner voice in some of the governance structures but it also needs to listen to the profession and I'm really keen to work with the organisation on how we take that forward Okay, thank you very much and I'd like to thank the cabinet secretary and her officials for their evidence this morning that concludes the public part of our proceedings I now suspend the meeting till I witness us to leave and the committee will then move into private session to consider the final agenda item thank you very much