o the ground we can we can talk about that we'll talk about you're walking down the street suddenly a hundred people it's just another one was um like what if what if somebody got snapped on the pavement like on the footpath and you're walking and they spawn like through you so you you've got like arms and legs sticking out of you a hideous monster like curl me i think i honestly i think those can be simply hand waved with oh yeah the intent of the snapper is reflected through the thing and also worthwhile to note that planets do move so in reality everybody gets snapped back into empty space yes guys it's on good but he gets the suit back in an infinity war gets an even nicer suit and joins the see i don't even have a problem with that of fundamental character levels like yeah but the point was he learned that you didn't need it to be the hero he is the hero the suit is just a tool avengers which leads me to the next reason why homecoming is a bad spider-man movie the avengers and the entire mcu now having spider-man being the mcu was a web dream of mine literally so when he showed up in civil war i got goose pimples pause it for the sake of copyright i guess i don't even know i don't know what this is i already made a video about why his introduction is so great so go watch that or don't but what seemed like a blessing at first now seems like a curse i want you to remember the days where these superhero flicks weren't all connected where a movie was just a movie sam raymi's spider-man is just a movie about spider-man no sequel set up no character poppins no timeline continuity it's just a film all of those things are not negatives he's he's bordering on blasts for me too it's interesting how can you argue for i hate it okay we're all calmed up superhero movies is like for real that's uh that's very odd you know comics one of the main things about comics that really cool and that the mcu is kind of tapping into is the idea that everything is in yes characters will interact with other like it's cool to you know see you to be reading a spider-man and then just have like sous storm show up for maybe a chapter and then go off elsewhere and then other characters pop up it's like yeah the film is worse standalone but you like the comics don't you the comics aren't standalone for the most part yeah and there's also an inconsistency that exists with these standalone films because these films establish that people with extraordinary abilities can exist and it's not just one off because all the people who's fighting have equivalent ish levels of power as well and so this is a thing that's happening in the world why is it only happening in new york city like yeah and you know so clearly it must be happening elsewhere why aren't the characters even mentioning it like the fact that i'm getting i've got spider powers and oh this is kind of interesting because there's a person with power on this other side of the world doing something like you'd think that would be a fairly relevant point of reference that would come up as soon as you get these powers and it just it's it's like i didn't i've never liked the fact that they were self-contained and only happening in this one instance in this one city in this one point of time always in new york as well i just want to see what were his three references they weren't all connected where a movie was just a movie sam ramy spider-man it's just a movie about spider-man no sequel set up no character poppins no timeline continuity so timeline continuity character poppins and sequel setup i mean it does have timeline continuity there's sorry i think it's saying that there's errors in the continuity which is i thought he was saying the fact that that's a thing they have to actually because if it's saying that nearly having continuity is a problem i'm just like no that's continuity is a good thing character poppins are these are not none of these are inherent well i was just i wanted the character poppin needs to be referenced it's an awesome one it's captain america who is this altruistic wholesome guy he's recorded a bunch of psas for kids schools that's so like that would totally happen yeah yeah that consistency that's great it's it was so refreshing to see it because you're like oh my god finally world is like there's a wheel here it makes it feel lived in you know it's believable a bunch of bread dude the the light of dialogue where he says pretty sure this guy's a war criminal now but whatever the the dismissive pe teacher just doesn't want to be there i was just like oh that's great but uh all right well maybe he's saying i don't know let's see what he says about spider-man no sequel set up no character poppins no timeline continuity it's just a film now i don't have a problem with any of this things i like easter eggs i like it all if those things don't detract from the film at hand and homecoming it seemed like sony was so keen on being able to use iron man the rest of the avengers that every single god damn story beat scene and character moment involves a reference to the greater mcu we have an opening sequence and a villain motivation that directly that's really cool i do well integrated is very well integrated and these other elements can be used to enhance the core spider-man story and that was done in endgame like the implication of tony stark and the existence of the avengers to give him an arc and like even though there are i have there was a certain nitpicky things i don't like and i can argue for the criticisms against it even though i can ignore them for the most part in homecoming yeah like these are not categorically negative things as is stating them it's odd to me because a lot of the seminal comic books have a crossover with oh yeah like like that man dark knight returns superman is a major character in dead of a born again the avengers show up in like the last arm in the last sixth of it i'm seeing it yeah sorry guys oh no i just don't see how this is really anything bad to have these sorts of things maybe he's just i don't know maybe he just kind of prefers the idea of spider-man being very like the most special thing in the in his particular years in new york where there's no others like him maybe that's why he likes it as much as it is but at the same time i don't see how that's a bad i think i think you've honed in on something there i think i think part of the um i think some people have an issue with spider-man is because spider-man is the marvel superhero you know he is the most important marvel superhero in terms of um recognition and impact so it's i guess it maybe does come across as a bit strange that he's not the most important player in the universe you know yeah that's what i mean i think it's i think it's more of a meta thing because spider-man is such an influential part of pop culture and you know when you think of like the big three superheroes it's batman superman spider-man but you know in the mcu there are so many heroes and he's come in late so they need to build it you gotta you gotta work to earn these sort of things in stories you know recognition and um it's part of the reason why people don't like ray in um in star wars it's like she suddenly comes along and she's awesome i mean she sucks as a character but you know like she suddenly comes along and she's great at everything whereas i yeah okay oh no i'm basically finished i was just gonna say also having a point of comparison in world can be a very it can be a great tool to enhance the core story of the character i've got a graphic novel which is the ultimate spider-man sinister six arc right sitting in my shelf next to me and yeah and having him meet oh they're the ultimates in this version which isn't there at the avengers but anyway um meet iron man and tony stark everything there's a scene where tony like um uh sorry nick fury introduces them says like team spider-man spider-man team and tony says like did you go back in timing to get him and they have this kind of attraction where they can't believe he's so young and then um uh then fury says hang on a sec the six guys we're trying to get this guy just beat them all single-handedly everything so basically it is like by having the contrast between these heroes the avengers and spider-man and that is so young it builds his character up that his achieves so much the guys that we're having trouble finding and beating now so don't take him so lightly and everything and that was a character building and enhancing thing by having the contrast in him meeting these other heroes that was great but an example of what you're talking about be that he manages to essentially take the punch from winter soldier in civil war yeah yeah it's just impressive it's just like oh oh you know you're like like don't take this guy so for granted and stuff like so having more characters to contrast and uh to try and enhance the qualities and characteristics of the character you want to focus on is hugely beneficial and useful in storytelling all right well i mean the thing is so far he's sort of declared these things are happening i'm waiting to see how they detrimental i suppose keen on being able to use iron man the rest of the avengers that every single god damn story beat scene and character moment involves a reference to the greater mcu we have an opening sequence and a villain motivation that directly ties into the avengers and more specifically iron man a second opening sequence that recaps sorry yeah people a lot of people say that he's directly tied to iron man vulture's not directly tied to iron man it's the avengers and tony's joint venture with damage control that's the only time his name is specifically mentioned that's what he showed that scene that's just telling us it's stark industries plus damage control equals where they steal from there's no personal vendor to attorney he's got a problem with the one percent he's very clear about that yeah and that's not particular to iron man i just wanted because a lot of people are like saying it's like oh he's just entirely connected to tony stark's like not not necessarily he has as much of a problem with him as he does with thor or like cap or right everyone in the avengers specifically iron man a second opening sequence that recaps the last big marvel movie and contains the backsides of pretty much all the avengers we have multiple cameos from captain america a bank heist to where the criminals are wearing avengers masks references to black but like he said that like it's a problem why is that a problem i want to see where it goes i feel it okay cameos from captain america say their distractions when i don't think it undermines the plot in fact they're used to like in they're used integrally in the plot and stuff well i mean the motivation first and at first the misguided one is he wants to be an avenger yeah so it makes sense that the avengers would come up so some people in chat are like no he's literally tied to iron man so spider man or vulture it's the avengers it's not iron man he doesn't like iron man no for sure for sure doesn't like it but he's when when vulture gets to share we'll get to that we will get to that but um the warehouse when he's like explaining his entire motivation to peter doesn't mention iron man he's just talking about like the people up there like they do he does he does say how do you think your body oh well yeah but that was like a not not an analogy a reference for um how he's not a bad guy right he's trying to explain to peter that he's like he's just a victim of circumstance just like stark is yeah my point is that his motivation to steal from people it's just a matter of the fact that they're they're downtrodden they're the the people who pick up the scraps from the people up high people like us people like you and me you know we got to go through that table i'm not saying he likes iron man i'm saying that i must have forgotten the speech he mentions thorn hulk he mentions the avengers they're in the avengers are they saying that vulture's value as a villain is lessened because he only exists due to iron man i'm not understanding the criticism well that one yeah i i mean i don't mean i don't want to straw man them if that's not what they're saying i'm just trying to understand what vulture is literally tied to i'm at with a vibratium cable all the avengers we have multiple cameos from captain america a bank heist where the criminals are wearing avengers masks references to black widow thorn the rest of the team all of peter's internal conflicts involve iron man and wanting to be an avenger hell holland's three big emotional moments revolve around trying to why is he showing the scene sorry why is he showing the scene where he's pinned on the debris he doesn't um he thinks back to iron man's statement saying if you're nothing without the suit then you don't deserve it all right okay all right the thing is just yes iron man said it but the point is that he's thinking about the statement the sentiment even like whether or not iron man said it is irrelevant at that point this involves iron man and sorry whether or not it came from iron man is what i mean to be an avenger hell holland's three big emotional moments revolve around trying too hard to be like iron man and realizing he needs to be himself yet no when he's picking up the debris it's not that he needs to be iron man he realizes no i need to be spider man it's yeah he's saying come on spider man let's go you you gotta do like i said i see i see that moment as him combining peter and spider man to you know get the job done it's not that he needs to get rid of one or the other it's that he needs to combine them both they're both important that's why he says come on peter then come on spider man they're the two halves of his hull i mean that's pretty evident from that shot isn't it yeah and then a steam place they don't play acc and i prefer iron man jr that's what i'm going for that's a shark no no no that's a full-on meme now but the thing is um it's that is something people criticize that but i don't see the thing is i don't even necessarily agree disagree with the idea that he's mentored by iron man does that make him iron man jr maybe he's not going to be iron man jr post far from home though does it though i mean look at um look well i'm curious what they if their definition is literally was mentored by iron man i'd be like okay i mean like i think of dick grace and it's like he's part of the bat family sure but nightwing is his a nightwing isn't batman and he was mentored by bruce so i think the argument here and i've spoken to more or a bit about this as well as you fringy um is that the idea that he is tutored mentored by iron man and in some instances he seems beholden to iron man's judgment and and stuff even though again homecoming he seems to overcome that but there's that still whole mr stark mr stark thing that is present in his character and and stuff that that detracts away from his sense of uh what is it identity um his independent his strong independent nature that does exist in the comic books and stuff and i think that is something that well that's fair enough to try and consider and to try and determine like is his independent go at yourself well when he goes to himself in the other iterations that's usually by necessity because he doesn't get help not that is choosing to go at himself i actually feel if you had the option to get receive help from others even the true spider-man character would be dumb not to accept the help but because no one is helping him out he has to go it is alone and he never gives up as a result establishes a very admirable strong individual character and that is missing in this interpretation i don't think that a character being mentored i don't think um somebody being mentored in and of itself means that they're not necessarily independent just because they get like independence i don't view dependency and independence as like you know binary i suppose you could reference luke is mentored by yoda and yet he still makes decisions for himself yeah yeah mm-hmm so what is more impressive or you could say stronger a character who is able to achieve the same amount by figuring it out himself well like captain moe oh hang on like if we can see the process if we can see the process and it's justifiable and it's a likable character on the types of beats that they can fall like it's not a complete perfect comparison there because they fail in the many in the way they execute captain marvel but with spider-man and that we have a point of comparison to be able to see how it was executed which is the comic books and and it comes across as a very strong admirable and again into like the notion of is independency a virtue well i mean it shows that they can get things done when they need to get things done and they don't necessarily need to rely on other people that is and in a strong characteristic like uh like when he went to the plane and did that yeah like and we say that that was a good thing because he's doing it himself are you talking about when he goes be when he goes to fight vulture without the suit uh yeah he does that on his own yeah yeah and so and that that is i think we've all been acknowledging that that's a moment of character strength because he is relying on himself and is doing himself um and so people are saying that that characteristic and i i agree with him in this instance is more broadly represented in the spider-man story in the cartoon the comic books everything like that and is a better character as a result um i think that um in the case of this story it's the it's seeing him not be like that that makes it to when he finally does sort of uh do that it's more effective because you get to see he did it he did it differently and wrong and made a lot of mistakes and then he finally you know sort of gets to a point where he does it right and it feels like it was earned because he had to work at it there was a progression if you know what i mean like it there was a progression from uh but could you have the same story with him going through those struggles independently without iron man i mean i i'd say yeah but the thing is i'd say you could i'd say you could have a story like you could do it but that is different as opposed to necessarily better or worse well again this goes back to the can you try and define certain characteristics at an objective yeah but for a heroic character and i think this is one of those things yeah but then you can come back with um uh like when we look at um setting up a character in the arc that they go on you want you you know having them start in a position where they're not as you know they're not doing as well as they could be and then progress towards a situation where they're doing better if you have them doing well at the start and well at the end then there's no progression whereas if you have them starting off sort of doing worse and then progressing and then getting better towards the end you can see that progression hey friend and it sort of ties into his eye yeah somehow two people in chat interpreted your argumentation to support the last jedi who am i how no fringies i find it fascinating if anything fringy just argued the opposite because the last jedi takes a character and arbitrarily flips their switch the last jedi has no progression ray is great at the start and great at the end before we get derailed and i forget my reply to what fringy said let me just try and get that is that um i feel peter parker's progression in terms of what he has to overcome to become a aspirational heroic you know figure and independent strong everything is encapsulated in the uncle ben beginning the the first act of the story and then the rest of the story is enjoying this just awesome character going through not necessarily just going through the motions but going through life trying to struggle and do the right thing with all the problems that he runs in along the way and the comparison would be like trying to say that if superman had an arc where he needed to obtain his powers would that be a better story than seeing superman try and operate with his powers and knowing when to use them effectively well then the moral questions that are associated with it well i just say it's a different story um in the same sense it is different but that doesn't mean it's equivalent i think the argument is making that it is actually in theory and they do have objective points that they're pointing to to say that it is an objectively inferior character as a result and i honestly gotta i just i don't understand that personally i um i imagine that the the arc is of like real importance i'm sorry you know you know what this is like so sorry because again it's point of reference so fringy this is like me trying to explain to you how great the best spaghetti bolognese is when you haven't tasted it it's it's hard to convey but i can try and no i've read i've read spider-man comics like i'm not i'm not sure like this is what i mean it's like i've read spider-man i'm not as big a fan of spider-man as i am of like batman dead of all dead pool and stuff like that sorry i just saw another comment before someone said it sounds like fringy is arguing that who your mentor um no it's it's important because what the mentor believes will inform the way that the character behaves i mean i guess a good example would be you compare when ben was the mentor he was you know he was just a good guy a very straightforward understandable good guy who had a framework that was clear from the very start and really you're not really gonna you understand it even if you misinterpret it even if you don't act on it correctly you understand it the great power comes great responsibility whereas with toni there's that added element of um he's an avenger i want to be an avenger i want his status he's really cool and impressive and awesome even your even your way of trying to define that element of his character sounds childish sounds selfish sounds like and the very fact that these are character qualities he needs to overcome is evidence that they are negative character traits and therefore creates a more unlikable hero as a result whereas the spider-man that's already established and being the aspirational noble character is objectively better because couldn't you turn around and say um yeah but couldn't you turn around and be like well iron man's hang on you cut out again well i mean it wouldn't be like um like saying uh well toni's not a very good hero he's narcissistic he's um he gets his well that's kind of superb he's a woman and oh yeah exactly it's all about execution and toni's stark selfishness and narcissism is executed in a very engaging interesting funny way and stuff like that the execution of these specific character traits in even homecoming like i think even the way that you were explaining it you were explaining it before shows that the execution didn't come across in a positive way i think the execution did come across in a positive way though because it was in service of the uh of the arc but okay but sorry is that you're saying that they are negative character traits though you're saying they're in services negative character traits they are character traits negative specifically because he needs to overcome them in the narrative surely you would agree that all characters should have some negative character traits right well it depends what the character is supposed to fulfill and the whole idea of spider man is to be this aspirational right but like if he has yeah but he has negative character traits well let's look at the let's well hang on let's look at the the core most true version of spider man that is established in most of the works right what are his negative character traits selfishness is definitely not one of them okay um uh you know trying to please other people in lieu of what he decides is right is not one of them either um that was something he did in the early comics so when he was trying to get liz and like the very early comics i need to see examples but we aren't trying to look at the the characters sorry i'm trying to remember there was an instance where flash was in trouble in the early comics and if i remember correctly spider man genuinely considered whether he was like for real should i actually help him if you cut it sorry you're cutting out so god damn um yeah no um in one of the park or are you in voice thing no i'm on uh i'm on the voice thing i think should i notice that that cuts out a lot for me so i've been switching to push to talk lately that might huh let me give that a try um by the way we saw the video we're almost two minutes we have two minutes left we can do it you guys i just i saw you know some say chat that character that flaws is boring and look that's generally correct but again depends on what you're trying what story you're trying to tell and everything like that and and the story of spider man isn't necessarily focused on his character flaws he has very few character flaws he is a noble aspirational hero it's the crap he has to go through because of his character qualities he is choosing to do the right thing and his life is being ruined all these things and so that's the whole kind of point of of the spider man character and he and for that type of story it is brilliant it is uh and uh and yeah so and i'm not saying that there are no flaws i think we could pick out a couple but the flaws that are present in home coming are not the flaws that the character that peter parker character has generally they're some people will even see it as a betrayal of that character type for me they are the flaws of what you can hear me now right this is working yes i'm so good okay all right good good good um for me the flaws are what make the characters like um because you have your positive traits and characters generally should have at least a couple of positive traits but it's the flaws that make them believable um and and you can have characters who are flawed who are still aspirational like i find dead ever would just still be kind of aspirational but you've got a character like dead ever like his morality is very questionable at a lot of times like why he does things um because he's a devout catholic um so he's obviously kind of worried about his eternal soul when it comes to you know battling people um and then the the central dichotomy is like do you you enjoy beating people up or you know or well no for real like the you know and again the execution of those flaws are done really well in dare devil the question is is the execution of these flaws done well in homecoming and i think there is a legitimate argument to criticize the execution of these flaws within homecoming or from without homecoming what more so in hope more so in um far from home absolutely i mean the criticism of the of how it's handled within the film are you gonna be how it comes across to that is his selfishness is his you know um lack of independent in the sense of i don't want to deny you calling it a selfish attribute that he wants to achieve the label of avenger but there is there is there is there is a shit ton of evidence for him being a selfless person in this film um on top of it so the idea of is it handled well i'd be like is a 15 year old who fanboys after the world's you know heroes handled relatively well in this film i'd be like well yeah they have plenty of um progression in each of the scenes to show this is something that's on his mind a lot it doesn't take away from this core value of wanting to help people well that's my point i'm not saying this isn't justified or it makes sense in the pot or anything like that i'm just trying to compare the actual character traits themselves if they these are positive character traits or negative character traits and comparing them to the more established version of spider-man and why people might prefer the other more established version i wouldn't have a problem with anyone preferring it uh it's just but even comparing it trying to say what is objectively a better heroic character um in relation to the what you're using as you are as your metric for that yeah like um well i guess i guess my thing would be um i can just think of a lot of heroes who have deficiencies batman has very clear deficiencies as a person um deadpool is an anti hero so i guess maybe i'm guessing maybe you have like a different view when it comes to you've got the heroes than the anti heroes new villains the metric the metric that a lot of people will be judging it by is the inherent fact that this is a spider-man movie by being called a spider-man movie that's the metric they'll judge it accordingly is it a good spider-man one but then we're just gonna repeat the discussion we've had before yeah so maybe we'll get back to the video very well let's do it to be himself i prefered iron man jr that's what i'm going for rather than spider boy now remember guys this is all my opinion but i think the reliance on the marvel brand definitely makes the movie seem less like a family like an issue of a comic book people often say that's what makes the mcu successful the sense of connectedness you sound like you want to say something i thought you were arguing from the comics i don't understand you well to be fair to be fair to the guy he did uh he didn't try to lump in way too many you know wrong facts or anything like that he got us on that corner store thing and everything so yeah but he didn't get us he's still got a bunch of other things wrong like the consequences and then well yeah but for the most part i do like he's he's been pretty clear that a lot i understand him opinion heavy i understand what i'm not sure i i think i'm on frieze page of the whole like i don't understand it's like is sort of disdain for continuity uh elements yeah it was it was weird because he said that they're okay as long as they don't detract and i don't think he's explained how they detract yeah he really hasn't so it's it's kind of pretty clear that he liked uh spider-man being the lone wolf and pretty much the whole thing i think i think he would have loved the mcu if it was you know instead of i'm one it was spider-man one like it began with spider-man and then iron man was a character that came in later sort of thing and it more revolved around um a spider-man sort of thing it's just yeah this continuity isn't that i guess it only makes the movie seem less like a film and more like an issue of a comic book people often say that's what makes the mcu successful the sense of connectedness no what makes the mcu successful is that it has a bunch of really heartfelt well-made movies with characters we know and give it yeah but this is the thing you're highlighting progression like um and you can't have progression without continuity so and you might be like well it's the important progression it's the characters it's like yeah but you so civil war doesn't work without age of ultron iron man three and iron man one and cap two and cap one like yeah like the scene that's paused on right now couldn't work without the movies that came before and even to go further than that without all the movies that went before arguably we couldn't have gotten one of the best movies ever made in end game like it was phenomenal i don't rely on i like that you like that so much but i think people will be surprised that that's your take on that game i love it it's so good maybe i look i love fan service as well and i was you know there were some great scenes that just gave me fan girl moments and i was like yeah uh but yeah it was so good fan girl mega hard at the uh the after credit sequence of far from home we'll get to that but i just he's talking about he's talking about jameson i'm talking about the other thing oh yeah yeah yeah yeah the shit about yes the easter eggs references set up and all that other shit is just the icing on a well-cooked cake but in homecoming's case if the cake itself isn't that well baked the whole thing suffers i was overjoyed so it's not it's not the continuity is the problem it was the the base was already broken in the first place i guess well then why even bring it up yeah this is this is weird if you're saying that the the cake was baked poorly wouldn't you say icing on the top would have improved it yeah i would think it might have improved it like like if the movie is so bad the only enjoyment you can get out of it is these cameos and internet connected parts of the mcu and stuff like that that's an improvement i would say like yeah i imagine you'd be saying at least we got the continuity yeah i think he wants this cake to have more dead people in it then homecoming's case if the cake itself isn't that well baked the whole thing suffers i was overjoyed when i saw civil war spider-man was finally interacting with iron man captain america even freaking bucky that's awesome that's so damn cool i left civil war so excited about the new spider-man i wanted to know more about him i was excited to get the good spider-man movie again a movie that focused on peter his motivation uncle ben maybe they would even have a screen accurate mary jane a character we haven't seen in 10 years an mj who had an abusive home life and made herself the party girl to avoid feeling alone maybe they would even do the face of tiger moment maybe they they would explore peter wanting to be a photographer maybe he would get his money by posting on the daily bugle youtube exploiting himself as spider-man it sounds like he wants like right i don't know i don't know how to respond to this it's like okay you i can see what you want i see it i get it i get what you want you didn't get what you wanted okay i get it i understand i do but i don't know yeah definitely still wants another ring the movie is like yeah well we got them we got the ring making two cents per video would this younger aunt may not like the idea peter trying to support her how does ben's death affect her i had so many questions after watching civil war and was so excited to get back to a smaller more personal story involving peter parker a spider-man movie that didn't need to set up a universe or have a batman begins as ketone i don't i don't think that homecoming does set up a universe it just benefits from one yeah there's no real like they don't touch on ben later well they might do they might not i don't necessarily see it as a requirement i know that i'm going to be i have to shag you to have a different perspective on that one well i mean i'm not waiting for it i'm just saying like they can they can subtly cover it if they really want or have a batman begins as ketone a spider-man movie that was the clear vision of one director and not a studio but homecoming doesn't focus on any of that it doesn't really focus on anything that makes a spider-man film the movie doesn't focus nearly enough on the human element of spider-man see like i'm with him when he's like it's not doing these specific things and then identifies them and i'm like it didn't do that one yeah it didn't do that one yeah and then he says like it doesn't focus on the human element of the character i'm like oh wait a minute there's a problem there because there's a lot of things that makes character human like need we go straight back to the crying no don't do that 15-year-olds don't cry when they're nearly dead let's not bring up a crying the film director john watz described homecoming as mainly a john hughes high school movie just because you reference ferris bueller doesn't make you ferris bueller i don't think they were trying to be ferris bueller i think they were the reference well i guess if you reference another movie you're trying to be the movie i don't know john hughes movies focus on character establishing characters the relationship between characters yeah and the implication there is that they didn't do that in this film and i would say peter and vulture is some of the most like established and develop well understood characters in the film could ned get some more work sure uh liz sure um what else we got just like yeah this is the protagonist antagonist and then secondary that's about it but um then then the question comes in of how many well-developed characters you're supposed to have in a film no i want to see uncle ben come back with spider-man powers i want uncle ben zombie uncle ben spider spider-man characters the relationship between characters and the drama involved with being in high school that way to approach a spider-man movie on paper is excellent i wanted the perks of being a wall crawler but i ended up getting 13 reasons why spider-man homecoming is not a good spider-man movie is that a final good line you know what we call that we call that a web slinging ass kicking as always guys you can support us on patreon page all right that's it all right so i get where it's coming from i get where it's coming from i don't agree with everything of course but i can understand some of his points and feel some are valid in the end uh it's more the title should be why spider-man homecoming is not a samurai movie like is it he opened with say no you're just gonna say a samurai fab boy it's like well that ending dude that ending were you like i don't know um but yeah i was about to say we're at nearly five hours we've got content remaining before we've even managed to approach super chat so i'm going to try and end the fab there and then we will reconvene to see who's gonna be guessing for the second part of this if anybody i don't know how long everyone's gonna be around for but before we go i would like everybody to now plug their shit so fringy would you like to go first my good man i have a podcast it's links so watch that and that's it for now maybe something soon well so why should they watch your podcast because i told them to it's objectively brilliant so you're gonna have shad guest on it fringy yeah i'll try and get him one time we'll schedule it in see what he can do pencil yeah um yeah linked in the description i'm trying to get to my own stream so i can actually post it but um i am about to uh in the meantime why don't you shad tell them why they should subscribe to your channel as well well it's interesting i don't talk about stuff on my channel it's all about swords medieval stuff no i do talk about pop culture a lot and fantasy and how fantasy you know is adapted into many different elements role-playing games the occasional video game review and stuff but i actually really enjoy coming on e-fap to talk about some things i don't get to talk about on uh on my channel like you know though i do have the occasional movie review like i reviewed um Captain Marvel and and others it's only if i really love or really hate a movie i'm prompt to do a review but uh a lot of fun people do go check it out if you're interested in it i mean i think a good start would probably be the uh the Thanos sword video right that's an easy one for them to get into yeah yeah it's the Thanos sword is dumb hey it breaks cap shield okay so it can't be that it's objectively good well i've made a whole video is that so watch that if you want to see my take yep both are linked in the description and then i guess uh that's bullshit when's your new video coming out no fucking clue dude i'm chipping away at that son bitch well it's a slow process they can continue to see you pop up over on the old e-fap we bring people together here that's the shad set at the beginning so it's objectively true wonderful true i would be willing to come back as long as it's uh before the 26th but yeah uh as insane as it sounds i will be back in like a half hour we'll have a nice break so we can stand up walk around and then discover maybe how we're gonna waste the rest of our lives um oh that's gonna be good the super chats will be read as a collective next stream so this one will be broken up on its own it'll is pretty much all about homecoming the next one will not be about homecoming well it will be to a degree yes i've got a video on the way i'm slaving over the episode five one it's gonna be like two hours it's taking ages it's just like captain marvel it'll come out i swear to god there's people who are saying like he's never gonna do it he's just saying yes i was like no it's coming it's gonna come out it's just gonna take a while i swear to god and then tfa things will happen to oh it's so i hate disappointing fans but i this is why i don't promise a date because it would be even worse they'd be even more upset um but yes it's gonna be nuts we shall return thank you for watching everybody see you soon


Hi everyone, Joe for jazby's casebreaks.com with another four box break of Panini Prison Basketball Picker Team number seven. Four boxes from a fresh case, so fresh and so clean. That's right G. The iPod was 15 years ago and Rex was bringing in boom boxes 15 years ago. Oh Rex. And like still calls it a boom box too. I mean how about that? So here's four boxes right there. This is kind of big. Sort of an awkward size. Here's another four boxes right here. Boom box. Did you bring in your boom box on a shoulder like this Rex? 15 years ago? You remember how you'd have to get like like 12 like quadruple D batteries to put into the back of those things? Just giant obnoxious speakers. There's four boxes in each column right there. We'll go one, two, three, four, five, six on that. Five. One, two, three, four, five, six. Far right is what we're going to do. And so left and center we'll tackle next time. But I'll put these X's right here. So we know they're from the same case. I was gonna be ambitious and try to grab all these. No I think I can do it. Fall boxes don't fall. Got it. Only if you have gold change right? Or what was what about what what what John Cusack was wearing? Like is he wearing like a a duster? Long duster or something like that? Mike I was told my tower saying I was told that I could listen to radio reason of volume from nine nine to 11 told Bill this and radio. I don't know who these people are. I think I think Mike just had a stroke. Rex Jason said that some David Spade specials would be on Rex Flicks for sure. Oh yeah that's right. Was that Milton? Was that the Milton quote? I have a red stapler at my house. That's a classic. That's a classic. That would be on Rex Flicks and Joe Flicks I would think. That's one of the that's one of the crossovers. There's Paolo Banchero going to Orlando. Matthew Chara. Also if you have prison for me most of you know this by now that means you won that team in the filler. So we did 17 teams in the filler. Here's the list again. But it's not I mean essentially it's like a hybrid break. Half of it was pick your team and little over half of it was a random team. Yeah and Laurie Markin is Jason Kidd for the Nets. That is for Alex and the Nets. Laurie Markin and Jazz Sean Maddick. Beyond Luca Dodge is sensational signatures. Josh Christopher Rockets. Oh and a bent Carmelo Anthony looks like he got into one of the crimping machines or something like that. All car chip. Chet Holmgren ships that'll go to OKC. That'll also be for Sean Maddick. It was Deandre Aiden Orange to 49. And we've got Deandre Aiden. That's for the sons of 49. Scott upside down Luca Donchich for Dallas. That's for Matthew Chara. That's 299. Yes I think Stephen Root is on. He is what to call it the his I guess partner in Barry. Yeah he's pretty great. Barry fantastic show that's definitely on Joe Flicks. There's Michael Porter Jr. to 199. There's Walker Kessler hyper nice. That's for the Jazz. That's for Sean Maddick. And there's Michael Porter Jr. to 199 for Denver. That'll be for Nathan. Yeah I think the new season of Barry the new and final season of Barry is starts starts soon days in a few days maybe. Yeah it's on HBO Max which is apparently in May it's going to be renamed to just Max. But it's going into its fourth and final season. I think Bill Hader directed every episode of the final season. And I like what he's doing there. It's just four seasons four tight seasons. Let's wrap it up. You know tight little storyline not too many episodes doesn't drag on too long. Right we don't want them to shorten the name of Peacock. Right Jason Jaspy to P. I mean if they're shortening HBO Max is just Max. They're short Peacock to P. Although HBO Max kind of I got the streaming service at one point thinking I think I was just to watch Barry maybe I was going to cancel it or something like that. But there's actually a lot of movies and stuff on there that I end up watching a lot. So I think HBO ended up at least on my cable package ended up being included. So then I was able to cancel HBO Max and then just log in through my subscription survivor survivor provider. It's getting late. Losing my mind. I'm gonna vet you out. Anything will forte definitely comedy genius as Rex once dubbed him. Comedic genius will forte will definitely be on Rex Flix. There's Nikola Jovic to 199 for the heat. Evan and we got sensational signatures. David Wesley for Charlotte. That'll be for Brian. Another Banchero for Orlando. Matthew Shira. Darius Basely to 125. Yeah. I was asking Delar earlier. Maybe you didn't hear my question. Where what is your source on this is is this public knowledge? Shaden Sharp. I'm just jealous of will forte comedy genius. David Roddy 149. I can assure you I'm not jealous of will forte. There's as many de-aing red wave.  All these cars will go to everybody. All card ship. It's Kobe White. It's 99. Look at the lobby. Chet homegrown. There's a base mathurian, Aaron. Let's see if we could find something a little more substantial. Something lower numbered. Maybe some ink. It's good to laugh Rex. It's good to laugh. I seriously Rex I think I'm gonna make if I remember this week I'm gonna I'm gonna make a new tab on on on the break schedule for Rex Flix and what would be on Rex Flix. Devon of a cell will go to the Spurs, William. Matt Damon was great in the Mathurian. Great movie. He goes to the planet Mathurias and gets stranded there. Oh a couple nice ones in a row here. A Jeremy Sohan for William and the Spurs. Last spot mojo. One of the one of the rising stars in the league. Hopefully keeps it up. Chet homegrown, shamanic, and the thunder. How well the thunder did without Chet homegrown. Imagine what they can do with Chet homegrown and another draft and whatever happened to the offseason. I think there's some love for Kenny Lofton, Jr., right? For the Gris. Here's a base. That'll be for Kevin with the Gris. Right a 1989 Sean Dunstan Cubs highlight reel will definitely be on Rex Flix. That's the death just original programming. That's just original programming on Rex Flix. Rex Flix proud to present. What are these X Cubs doing? Hosted by Rex. Are we getting big baby vibes with Kenny Lofton, Jr.? Also, is Kenneth Lofton, Jr. that Kenneth Lofton, Jr.? No one is confirmed or denied. Well, I mean, the carry would say I don't think Mike you're not getting the game. Anybody's gonna have carry woods 20 strikeout game. That'd be on Joe Flix. That's a great game. That's on MLB Network. Actually, I think Fox Sports did a really nice special on that on that game that interviewed him as well. No way Kenny senior pops out of kid that size. Garrett, thanks. Thanks for the sharp auto covers all of your sponsors. Congrats. Glad to be of service. Thank you for getting in. It's a team effort. Here's Santa Clara, Jalen Williams. They also have Arkansas, Jalen Williams. Not related. Thanks, Mike. Mike Towers saying not really. A lot of his father also named kind of certain the United States Army and then worked for the U.S. Postal Service for 18 years and was elected to the Port Arthur M. Penn School Direct District Board of Trustees. There you go. And there's Cole Swider. Kind of like his upside. I think he's like an undrafted player and Lakers really seem to find a lot of diamonds in the rough in that department. Might make some, could be a late bloomer. Lakers, hold on to this one. Kenneth. And then we've got Josh Minot, Timberwolves, Rookie Hyper for Ben. And there's Norman Powell for the clip show to 299 William. Besides Teese Jr., Acuna, what is the other son of a foreign player who's really made it recently? Besides those guys? Bobby Whit Jr. Jeremy Solhand for the Spurs. That'll be for William and Jalen Brunson for the Knicks. That's going to be for Scott. That's to 199. I don't know. Maybe Mark doesn't have audio. DeLar has been alleging that he knows like who's who's leading in these like these awards races. But I don't know if that is that public information. Can someone confirm that? Or maybe DeLar, if he has sound can give me a source for that? Or is this just some Reddit in the know or like some TikTok account, which is less credible. But if it is credible, it's interesting. All right, we've got Austin Reeves. Nice. What a season he's had. Another diamond in the rough they found. Lakers, I mean, they have to because they're giving away first round picks, but their scouting department has, I think he's an undrafted player. Now starting like starting shooting guard in the on the Lakers. There's D'Ang to 299. OKC. That'll be for Sean Maddock. There's AJ Griffin. Red Wave. PJ Washington Jr. 99 for Charlotte. It'll be for Brian. This Jalen Williams had a pretty good game last time. I will see him again tomorrow. Clint Capella to 125 or Friday the 14th next playing game. Suppose other people might be watching this video years later. Hello, future if you're watching. Oh, if you're trying to post a link, that's not going to work. Just tell us what like the social media handle is or something like that. Is this a is this a credible source? Yeah, last box here, ladies and gentlemen, this this might be the last box of the evening unless I see some orders come in, which I do not. But we'll still hang around here for a little bit. I want everyone's quick thoughts because I'm not going to see you until Sunday. Jason Jaspie will be here the next couple nights for you here on YouTube. But who does everyone have for the Friday playing games the last round of playing games? Chicago at Miami, Oklahoma City at Minnesota. So this guy, where is he getting this information? Oh, I see. Alright, so I think thank you, Mark. I appreciate it. A lot of people like to, you know, they'll source the incorrect things and they'll still source like some Facebook group or Twitter thread or something random like that. But this guy is actually going around. I'm allowed to post links though, Aaron. Yeah, I don't want other people posting links. But this person, if you click that MVP try just click it click the MVP tracker in his profile. It goes to a Google spreadsheet. He's actually going through like everybody's public like statement on who they voted for for such awards from different publications. And he's kind of aggregating all that information to kind of give give us an idea of of who they voted for and putting it all together and figuring it out. So nice. Thank you, DeLara. That's that's pretty cool. I mean, I can post it as as the owner of this channel. But everyone else can't. If the bulls make it to the championship will we see Jordan at some games? But as the owner of another basketball team? Would that be a conflict of interest? Probably not, right? Maybe Jordan as a competitor wouldn't go because he owns another basketball team. I should have specified that that that you can't post the URL in the chat. I worded that wrong. Kelly over a junior reveals another Austin Rivers back to back Austin Austin Rivers Austin Reeves two different people Kenneth with my Lakers. It's been a long week folks. There's Walker Kessler who according to that site, that source apparently got a vote, thus ruining Paulo Benchero's thus running Paulo Benchero's potential unanimous voting as a vote in as rookie of the year. There's Paulo speaking of does it show up as a purple wrench to you shows up as a cornflower blue wrench to me. I don't know what it looks like on on the side of the masses. Chicago at Miami. No one has any predictions or takes on this. Chicago looked really good. Miami look not good. Does that become an opposite or is that trend continue? OKC at Minnesota saying well actually no Minnesota didn't look didn't look very good. Lakers didn't either actually the both teams couldn't really shoot down the stretch but OKC looked really good. Is it the go bear drama jam jam up the people jam up people in Minnesota? Anthony Edwards was real cold in that game in the game against the Lakers. Does he also? Oh that's right. Sorry Mike. My tower is partially colorblind. It's blue but yes mods mods with the wrench which are Jaspy employees or Jaspy breakers actually more specifically should be able to post. Nine out of sixty Josh Giddy the Thunder. They looked really good. Minnesota looking a little fractured. I don't know if Anthony Edwards is going to be that cold as he was last game but I want to say the efficiency numbers actually say that the Timberwolves are better without go bear actually. Here's Evan Mobley to 99 but I think he might be back for this upcoming game. Evan Mobley going to Matthew and the Cavs. There's Jalen Williams. This is Santa Clara Jalen Williams. I forgot that there were two both drafted in the same year. Jalen Williams of Santa Clara and Jalen Williams of Arkansas. Jalen Williams of Santa Clara is the more highly touted player. It was drafted a lot earlier. But is Zegras being a B? Let's look.  He walks into the tunnel and starts whacking his stick along the on the wall.  Like a frustrated toddler would. Yeah well not only that Aaron it's like he I don't think he was just well liked in general on that jazz team and then also seems to be not liked in the Timberwolves locker room anyway or at least just penchalant. Colin Sexton last auto is rookie auto Jabari Walker for Portland. Garrett Strauss with that one. That's all it takes Mark Dalar. It's not not a best of the quarters. It's the point total at the end of the game. Lakers can do that. If the Lakers can do that all all playoffs long I'd be fine with that. Colin Sexton for the Jazz. Sean Maddock. There's a Namia's Quetta to 149. Banchero luck of the lottery. Quetta for the Kings goes to Aaron. And what else? What else do we have here to close things out? We've got a widescreen Lucodontia Silver. A Zion Williamson. Get well soon. A lot of people have in the hobby you're invested and there's Lucodontia for Dallas. There you go. Uh that's the first four boxes of a fresh case. The next two boxes are the other thirds of the case. Get into the action ladies and gentlemen. Jazz V's case breaks dot com. Pick your teams before someone else does or before it ends up in some sort of filler. Thanks for watching everybody. I'm Joe. I'll see you next time for the next one. Bye bye.


But I was the accidental psychiatrist who was supposed to become an OB. And to the point that all of my training and all my advanced rotations were actually in the field of obstetrics and gynecology. To the point that when I came to apply for residency, my letters of recommendation still set on them obstetrics. So I'm interviewing at psychiatry residency programs at the Stanford's and the Harvard's and the Mayo Clinic and such. And they're telling me, so do you want to become a psychiatrist or an obstetrician? And I'm in these very awkward moments trying to explain what all happened that changed the course of direction. But Subhanallah, that's a long story and I won't go into all the details on how that happened. But in the short version of the story, here is where I have to thank my husband because at the time both of us had been trained. Our primary training is actually in Islamic law and theology. And had been teaching in the community. And in the process of teaching, it became very clear to us that there were so many things happening in the community that we didn't have words to explain despite our Islamic training. We didn't understand pathology, for example. We didn't understand what was normal typical behavior and what was pathological behavior that needed help. But as people who are religious leaders in the community are often given everything to work with, even if you don't have that specific training. And so he said to me, any trained person can deliver a baby. But only somebody who's really grounded in Islamic training could actually help the course of psychiatric and mental illness and really be able to integrate both from our tradition. And hence, my course of training changed. Full circle in that today's discussion is actually going to integrate the things that I care very deeply about all of them, all three things. And my advanced training actually happens to be in my fellowship training post residency, is actually in women's health and wellness. And so even till today, I'm still embedded once a week in an OBGYN clinic where there's five OBGYNs and I'm the one psychiatrist that's working with perinatal, maternal, and female health. So Subhanallah, and I'll do my best in today's discussion to bring in some of those themes, but because I'm primarily speaking as a psychiatrist, the lens will be primarily mental health. But the full circle. So thank you for that invitation, Washa'Allah. And you know, here I think we should start the discussion in really understanding the work that's happening right now for us in the field of mental health, you mentioned the Khalil Center, and the work that we're trying to do to really integrate Islamic fundamental teachings and understandings into what seems to be for many a very secularized field. Particularly when we think about this schism that seems to exist in the field of the sciences where there seems to be this division between science and religion. And there always seems to be this tension, should these two worlds integrate or not? And as a Muslim, this is always hard for me and for folks like you who know that in our Islamic teachings there is no division between these lines. Our scholars have always integrated and worked within the sciences and the faith all as one package. It wasn't this tension that exists in the modern, particularly medical world, but in the modern other domains and fields as well. So here, you know, I really want to talk about some concepts in which there are ethical dilemmas that show up when you train in the modern fields of psychology and psychiatry. Let's start there. But there are things that don't jive with the Islamic understanding. So what happens? What do you do? So the first story in case that I'll share with you actually highlights two terms that are very important to our field of mental health and specifically in counseling that often cause some ethical dilemma. These are the terms called transference and counter-transference. And I'll explain those momentarily. But first, to explain what I mean, I'll share with you the story of my very first day. I told you that I wasn't planning on going into psychiatry to begin with, and so I kept my psychiatry rotation in medical school until towards the end of my training. And my very first day, and my very first experience in a psychiatric institution with my very first formal interview of a psychiatric patient, so I was sent to a patient who was on an inpatient locked unit. She was at the very end of the hallway, and I went there. We were each assigned a patient, and I went there to do my interview skills. I emerged maybe an hour later and took my notes, copious notes, as a very green medical student I do to the attendings and the rest of the medical students, and each one is presenting the case that they had worked on. When it came my turn, I got up and I presented, you know, this so-and-so is a 20-some-year-old patient with A, B, and C history that presents for XYZ and on with the rest of the discussion. The two attendings, the two supervising attendings in the room, kept looking at each other the whole time I'm presenting, and I couldn't figure out what was I saying that was problematic or why were they looking at each other. And then after they let me give my whole spiel, the first attending says to me, did Mrs. So-and-So really say all of that? I was like a deer caught in the headlights, like, oh no. What did I say? What did I do? Did I mess this up? All those thoughts are going through my head. It's my first psychiatric interview. And the other attending jumps in and says, actually what he means to say is, Mrs. So-and-So has been in our unit for three weeks now and has not been willing to speak to a single one of us, not any of the doctors, not any of the nurses, not any of the techs, nobody. How did she say all of those things to you? So now that pit in your stomach, that's like, am I being accused here of falsifying this interview? And then one of them, they saw it was just sort of like stuck, and someone of them said, did she say anything to you that indicated why she would speak to you and not to anyone else? And I said, I don't know. But I remember her saying that she, in the point where we got to her educational history, she said that as a girl she attended a Catholic school in which there were all nuns, and that she, that period of her life was the most helpful and positive period of her life, and that she had this very positive affiliation with her, the nuns who were her teachers. And she said to me, you remind me of them. So the one attending raised his hands up and said, positive transference. And the other attending raised his hand and said, the nun effect. And I just said, what are those? I was terrified really. And all I could stammer was, but I'm not a nun. And they just laughed, and they kind of went through this whole discussion of explaining what transference was. And here is an example of a positive transference because what transference is in our counseling world is a term we use when the patient or the client is having a good connection or a vibe basically with the therapist or doctor who is in the room who is trying to help them. Now as you can imagine, there's also a negative transference that can happen the other way around where they are something about me as a practitioner is actually triggering to them and they are not willing to talk and they're not willing to actually open up. Now that's transference, but there's also counter-transference. And counter-transference is when I, as a clinician, there is something about the patient in the room that is bothering me or triggering me or not allowing me to be as objective as I should be in working with that patient. And so we are taught in our field to be very careful of these concepts of transference and counter-transference because as one of my mentors would say, Dr. Harold Koening is a very prolific author and the field and researcher in the field of spirituality and health and particularly in mental health, he's at Duke University and he has several books, many, many books. One of them is a book called The Patient Care and in there, he talks about how the mental health provider compared to all the other medical providers are held to a much more narrow and restrictive ability in what they can and cannot say to the patient or client in front of them. The reasoning he gives is because if we're not careful about crossing boundaries and not just our own crossing boundaries into the patient care or allowing also not stopping the patient when they cross boundaries into our space, then we lose the ability to actually give them the best care possible. And while especially for us psychiatrists who are trained as MDs in medicine, we are trained to be very decisive in what we say, Dr. do I have cancer or not? What antibiotics works well? What are the side effects?  You're trained on how to say that as well. But they're expecting very specific answers from you. But in the field of psychiatry and specifically counseling psychology, you cannot speak that freely. That's one layer of difficulty. Now add to that the next layer of what happens if in addition to that you are working with a Muslim patient, you are a Muslim psychiatrist or psychologist. And because of that shared faith background, they are also expecting you to, in addition to have answers to the medical or illness kind of questions they're asking, of also having Islamic answers. Now comes another layer of complexity of what can you say that does not actually interfere with the therapeutic process that is happening in that therapy room. And that can also aid it and help it not the other way around. Now that I've prefaced the discussion, let's talk about some more specific cases of when this starts to show up and how exactly you, we have been struggling really to work on this. Like where is the role of bioethics, right? What is the role of ethics in these situations? Where is the role of the Muslim scholars in this situation? And then the role of those who are being trained. So here's an example. Let's start with this first example. You know, for those who are trained in Islamic law here in the room, there are certain maxims in our faith which we know very well, but may not be as obvious right away to the person who's in the room with us. For example, in therapy, this has happened a number of times now, where a patient may say to me, either she's saying it's something in passing, or that is the actual crux of the issue for which she's presenting, and each one differs. So here's the case. The patient comes in and says, she's talking about something totally different and saying, you know, maybe let's say the issue is really her work situation. My boss is giving me trouble with this. I'm having trouble with my coworkers here. I'm thinking of changing jobs. I need your support and help. That is the context with which she's speaking. And that's what she's seeking therapy for. And that's one of all of that. Comes this one liner, where in the middle of her describing how difficult life has been lately, she says something like, and then I've decided to go on birth control pills, but I'm not telling my husband because it's too much. I can't handle all this that's happening. And on goes the rest of the conversation. For the trained ear, in Islamic law, you hear this line and go, oh, this cringe that happens, of you know something was just said necessarily in accordance to the teachings of Islam, and she may be very oblivious to that it may not be purposeful. But she also hasn't asked for help with it, nor asked anything related to that particular topic. Unlike the other patient who comes in specifically to say, life has been really difficult lately. I have, I don't know, let's say five children under the age of six, you know, and I am tired. I am anemic. I can't sleep at night. I have no help. My hair is falling out and the list goes on and on and on. And in the midst of all that, she says, and I feel really guilty because I decided to go back on birth control pills, but I'm not telling my husband or I don't want to tell my husband because he would say no, but I just can't right now, but I feel so guilty over it. Doctor, what do I do? Now, each woman's story is different because the one who went on was just talking about her work and she says that one liner and then goes right into my boss and my coworkers and my job and wants help with that. What is the role of the person who is duly trained, who is there in the room as a therapist? That's the point of coming in. She's not catching me after my Friday night holoca saying to me, hey, Doctor Rania, what is the ruling on? And what she's seeking help for is what? All my issues happening at work. Do I pull that conversation back and say, hey, by the way, which our field would say, no. That would be egregious. That would be crossing boundaries. Unlike the other woman over here who's saying what? This is the crux of my problem and I need to untangle it because that's why I feel so guilty. They'll help me through the situation. That's the ruling. And she knows she's doing something that is not and for anybody in the room who's wondering what is this ruling? So let me clarify just in case. The ruling in Islam is that neither spouse should prevent purposefully, prevent the other spouse from having access or having a child. And just like the man cannot do something that either permanently or even temporarily prevents the woman from having children, especially if it's permanent for either one of them, but even temporary without a discussion back and forth and a decision between them. Now, this is the ideal case. This is what Islamic law teaches and here comes the situation where but that's too complicated. They're not seeing eye to eye in the first place. So what are we talking about here? Here we're talking about issues of ethical dilemma that start to show up in the context of therapy. And like I said, there's many layers to this story because either you have a practitioner, a patient who comes in, a client or patient who comes in who's not seeking out any, they're not coming to you because of anything related to the Muslim faith. In fact, they may not be necessarily, that's not really what they're interested in. That's not what they're seeking you out for. Unlike the patient who may come out to you, like we see in the Kharil center, the vast majority of people who seek out the Kharil center is a spiritually integrated professional counseling service. So these are clinics that are now in Mashallah throughout the country. They started off here in Chicago and we have branches in the Bay Area and LA in New York and Toronto and inshallah growing. So this concept of seeking out specifically mental Muslim, mental health providers who are not just Muslim, but they're actually also doing what if requested. What if requested? We'll also do a form of therapy that's called Islamically integrated psychotherapy. So if somebody seeks that form of therapy out, they are also asking for Islam to be integrated into the therapy ruling. So the patient is saying, help me figure out both Islamically, but also emotionally how to deal with this case. Now you start to see where the fields start to have a little bit of attention with each other. Do I put on my hat or hijab being a psychiatrist only in this case? Or do I also lend expertise towards the Islamic sciences in this case? Well the first thing I'll say to you is the patient or the client has to be the one to lead the discussion. What is it that they want and that's where we go? But in the meantime, there may be something that they said in the process of therapy that in my personal religious practice might be very difficult to stomach or hear. If you have that level of counter-transference, that level of difficulty working with somebody who may be doing something that for whatever reason it's triggering to you as a clinician, you are taught ethically to transfer them to another provider. Because then you cannot give objective good care if your lens is too cloudy in that way. So now let's keep going in this discussion and I want to tell you, and for those of you in the room who are trained in Islamic sciences, you may be hearing this and going, but wait, wait, how could somebody who is trained in Islamic law allow some of this to keep going? Because that's just one example and we have many, many. But just one example, because you know let's talk about the framework of Islamic law. For example, I'm going to use some Arabic words and I'll translate them. But in the framework of Islamic law, once you are trained there has to be for example a series of several things that happen. The first, to beyan al-hukm right? So basically giving clarification to the ruling when someone asks you about that ruling. And if you don't what happens is something called kitman al-alm that you are doing what, you are actually covering up knowledge, concealing knowledge which is considered to be impermissible to the person who has been trained in this field. And there causes the dilemma for that person. And then there's other aspects. For example, this concept of the obligation of advising which is what? Which correspond with the rules or khakam al-hisbah. Khakam al-hisbah is basically the rules where you enjoying good and forbid evil. So again, if someone's asking you this very, very directive question and you are actually trained in this and you have the answers and you purposefully do not answer, here comes an issue for the person who has actually been trained in Islamic law or theology. So, and conveying the deen in general, this obligation of conveying the deen, you know, the saying or Bismillah right? So convey even if it's just about me, even if it's just one verse. So here this concept of this framework looks very different than the framework over here. If I give you the framework of psychiatry, for example, or of the mental health and the counseling fields, which basically says we are not here to give you directive answers to anything that you bring up in therapy. We are here to do something called, and these are psych terms called hold and contain. Hold and contain is whatever you bring into the room, I am meant to hold it with you to help you with this thing, however heavy it is. And to help you walk along the path and guide you when needed and as needed by the questions that I might ask and by the exercises that I may teach you and techniques that I may teach you to help guide you on the path, but it's ever a directive you should do this or you shouldn't do that. So very different than the other framework that I just spoke about. So here when you really the idea here is to inspire people to make the best choices for themselves, that you can't make decisions for them as a therapist in the room. So here you are having this discussion and by the way I just have to say this is where I really love I didn't name the Khalil center, Dr. Humaan who will be here later came up with the term Khalil center, but it comes from the word Khalil in Arabic, which is basically the friend and it has other translations too, but the Khalil you know like the hadith that says al-mar'u ala dini Khalili A person is on the path of their good friend and therapists are not meant to be friends by the way. What I meant to explain here is somebody who walks along the path with you is your Khalil right. So that's how we see Islamically how we see a therapist in this modern kind of discussion of Islamic psychotherapy is what we determine the Khalil to be. Someone who's walking along the path and as needed kind of help guide you towards the questions, but it's ever very directive. So all of that being said now we have this kind of issue of what happens in this case I just discussed you with you because I'll tell you something very important.  I didn't take a single psychology course in college because what good Muslim girl does such a thing remember I trained in Islamic sciences before I trained in medicine. So for me that was different and I'll be very honest with you. So when people have all this stigma against mental health I know exactly where you're coming from I was once there and Allah has a way of humbling you and so you know finding that path and understanding and this is a whole other discussion we don't have time for today but the discussion of how so much of mental health is part of our legacy as Muslims the heritage of Muslims that's usually what I'm always talking on and on and on about which Shala will have that discussion on another time and day but when I realized how much it was part of our heritage then it made sense to me and then came the question well how did our predecessors deal with these questions because every time you pick up a biography of any of the early Islamic scholars that wrote on what today we call mental health and you read their biography it always starts off with and so and so had studied Islamic sciences and memorized the Quran and then he studied medicine and then he wrote it and then he studied this and he studied that and the other thing encyclopedic scholars so clearly they had grounding in the Dean before they had grounding or along with the grounding they had in medicine and the sciences too so clearly these are not new ethical kadundra right this is something that we think is new but it's not actually so I actually urge us to go back to our tradition and figure out exactly how to have this all work out properly but let me give you another example because the examples like I said they're endless they're endless whether we talk about the example of you know you're the therapist in the room and the person this actually happened to me just recently I had a patient she's talking to me on and on about the difficulties of there was financial difficulties in the family and there were issues related to her and her husband weren't getting along there's a young child and you know just that's kind of the what's happening and then the next session I see her which was two weeks later she's coming in and she's an emotional wreck I mean crying nonstop what's wrong what happened when she could finally get the word she said as soon as I left the day after I left the session I found out I was pregnant my husband and I both decided we couldn't have this child I went to Planned Parenthood I had an abortion and I'm a wreck these are practicing Muslims I mean that's not the issue here the issue is this is someone's real life scenario so she's talking in the room about guilt written about what had happened and wanting to needing to talk through that space I'm not there to judge I'm not there to say haram I'm not there to say shame on you I'm there to help her through this process because the reality is it didn't come up in our earlier sessions for us to even have a discussion about it now had it maybe we could have had a discussion maybe the result would have still been the same and maybe that was the proper result for her I don't know but what I do know is that if it's something that a person has had it happens depending on your comfort because if for me that's too much for me to handle then I need to transfer her out to somebody else that can help her right now these cases whether they're on abortion maybe it's adultery for that matter maybe it's anything that may be considered problematic with the Islamic faith it's going to do what require us to really think how do we bring in the ethics into this discussion so here's another example for all of us in the room I know we have many health providers in the room but you know it's really important to understand that in the therapy space it's a very unique space different than other fields of medicine because we cannot and we are not allowed to give unsolicited advice so she's in the middle of saying all that and I can't just unsolicitously say oh you know you shouldn't have done that right like no that's not the space for that even if that is actually the ruling so imposing kind of these religious values especially on someone especially someone who didn't even ask you about it because the same person could have come in and didn't feel guilty felt that that was the right decision for her and now she wants to talk about something totally different I want to talk about you know the difficulty I'm having like the person who had difficulty at work let's say right so you cannot just like intervene and say something else in the middle of but it's difficult because here in the context of this therapeutic alliance that deforms it's it's hard for those who are kind of trained in multiple fields if you will especially if they're also trained in the Islamic field and all these people coming through the pipeline we want them to be grounded in the faith so that when Muslim patients come through and say I need guidance on I'm coming to you specifically because you're Muslim like me therefore we speak the same language right I don't mean actual language I mean lived experience language okay and that's why I'm seeking you out we have to be very careful in how we say what we say so here's another example and the here you know and this has happened also a number of times myself and other people I supervise at the real center you know we do a lot of marriage family counseling a lot of it and I can't tell you now the number of times this has happened either to me or someone I supervise where they're in the middle of talking about you know let's say it's a context of a 20 year marriage or even a 5 year marriage for that matter but it's like this very disjointed like timeline and then this happened and she said this and he did this and then they came here and this one happened and this kid was happening this one and it's just like and you're trying really hard to follow this timeline of this person's life basically and when you finally get it all down it becomes really clear again to the trained ear that these two people Islamically are no longer married but they're living together and they're working through in fact what they came for was marriage therapy to help them and now you're in this dilemma of do I say something about how that was the final Talaq or divorce you're way past three or maybe it was a non-araja I don't want to get into too many legal terminology here but it was a non-returning you know into the marriage do I say or do I not say and then ethically as a therapist do I continue counseling them in marriage when Islamically they're no longer married what a total ethical dilemma so here you are in the space of therapy and what we figured out is the level of training differs so if you are somebody who's actually been trained and I'll tell you some of the ways you might kind of very very sensitively ask these questions to see where again you are walking along the path with them but when there's an ethical conundrum you are not what meant to have to sit in a very difficult situation if you can't handle that situation nevertheless you might want to very well be able to help your clients your patients so at the Khalil center we developed something called religious consultants so now because what we realize is some of our therapists are trained they've actually gone through their legal studies they've gone through different kinds of studies and they have within themselves with the same body they have the professional therapy training and the Islamic law training but for many of our therapists they're in the process of training or they don't have this so this is where we have our in-house religious consultants where we basically have said when an issue like this comes up to the therapist when an issue like this comes up do not attempt to answer to have the correct and requisite knowledge to say anything Islamically about whether or not this is actually but if you have doubts what you heard and you're like this is there's no way these two people Islamically are still married and you have doubts on that then you say to them would it be permissible would it be okay for me to refer you to our religious consultants why because I'm wondering if we need to sort out some of the religious aspects the fiqi aspects the legal aspects of whether the two of you are actually married or not I don't know enough this is what a therapist might say but the religious consultant can help you sort this out so here in Chicago we have California we have in each of our we have people some of whom are separate religious consultants and there are some of us who are duly trained myself for example in the Bay office or who's in the LA office to be able to help discern what's happening now most of our clients actually I would say I haven't seen a case yet in which they weren't very thankful for that because again the reason they're seeking out this specific type of care is because they want the Islamic understanding and framework mostly now we have by the way just to be very very very clear we have non-Muslims in our office all the time and we cater to everybody and we have lots of Muslims in our office who don't want the Islamic paradigm they just want regular standard therapy but know that you have the same cultural background as them and everybody is welcome I'm talking about the subset of people who what who specifically are asking for both together Islamic understanding plus the therapy so we try to help ameliorate some of this with our Islamic with our religious consultants right but I also want to say and this is what we do with our training with regular therapy training and we always tell people be careful not to speak on what you do not know because you can make the situation 10 times exponentially worse do you know what I mean and so in the process of all this the back and forth and back and forth either because now as a therapist in this case I just mentioned if they are married now your role as a marriage family therapist is to do what is to actually help them get on good footing in that marriage and if they are actually divorced maybe the therapy has to take a different path where it actually helps them each figure out how to get on their feet as a divorced person and how to figure out co-parenting and all the rest that comes with that and if they wish to remarry that has a different type of therapy that needs to happen so you see one simple thing either and this is a process too where someone could just say it and passing and that's not even the reason they came to the first place or that may be the very reason they came and so this is where I want to show you the different layers of ethical conundrum that happens sometimes in our field of mental health that still kind of have I'm touching a little bit on the reproductive and sexual health discussion as well here but I really want to share with you these are difficult cases and I really want you to think about how that really affects both the people in the room who are trying to help but also affects us as the people trying to do the help and how important it is to really be as grounded and as trained as possible and to have the kind of supervision that is required because you see in the field of mental health I'll just speak of that field anybody, even a masters level trainee is going to go through not just two years of a masters program but they typically have about 3,000 hours or more of supervised clinical care that's about three more years give or take of actual supervision over the therapy they're doing meaning somebody else has to sign off in every case that they have until they're really well grounded and trained to then be able to do this solo so I'm going to take a small segue here and say for all of us who are on all of our dear Islamic studies and Islamic and imams and Islamic studies and religious teachers these things that we call counseling kind of informal counseling is also somewhat problematic when just like all those people that have had years and years and years of training to be careful of how they say things and how to frame things and what to do but they may not have the Islamic knowledge but the imams and religious and scholarly leaders might on this side have the requisite knowledge but don't have the training and the nuance of what you say and how you say and when you say it preferably there's cross training cross training that happens where there's training for imams on the mental health field which we have and we've developed specific imam training on how to actually speak other organizations have as well but this is written by people who have both the scholarly lens so that when they do the training the scholars are actually listening because it's speaking their language to be able to really fully understand what's happening and likewise our mental health providers and professionals have to have some requisite trainings that explain the Islamic side of things too so they're not mis-stepping and crossing boundaries they shouldn't be crossing either we often talk about this issue of staying in your own lane and people don't like this very much but the reality is if you try to drive and not stay in your own lane what's going to happen well this is what happens this is what happens here too and I could share some other cases and maybe we'll have time for that as well later but just think about all the different cases in which there really is and I just very briefly mentioned abortion but certainly it is a case that causes quite a bit of ethical conundrum as well and somebody who's in the counseling space may have a really difficult time if they feel very strongly that this is not or maybe they don't have the full requisite knowledge because the ruling is known but there's all this nuance in the fiqh that may or may not allow for somebody to actually undergo abortion Islamically I'm talking requisite knowledge Islamically so you really have to think about all the different layers that comes up in this discussion and how important all this cross training needs to happen and I also want to say that sometimes in therapy we have to be very careful in sitting with and working on cases that actually may somebody may say something in the context of therapy that very much to again to the trained religious ear may sound like Rida somebody has just exited the fold of Islam by what they just said but you are not there to be the judge or jury or executioner right you are there to actually help and if they were to turn around and say what I said there is that problematic with Islam that's a different discussion than the person who's saying that and sometimes I'll actually say to some of my patients who say things that you might even consider as blasphemous you know Islamically but I'll say to them it sounds like your depression is talking and they'll say what and I say you know when we're depressed sometimes we say things we have such a despondent state and we say things that later when we're out of that state we may actually not identify with and they may ask what do I mean and we might go back and forth and actually have a discussion on the importance of understanding that there's no judgment you say right now but if we're trying to help you through that case then either I am going to refer to some of our spiritual leaders to help in that or if I and I have permission to help as well walk along the path with you if that person is asking for help along that path will actually do so to help you know in those in this you know therapy that they're seeking so in closing I think what I want to say here is I really feel that one of the main places where that our ethicists can really help us and I'll tell you again because of that so many providers that are coming through the pipeline I think I started by saying at the time I went through training there are very few of us very very few to the point that when I finished my training so here I am a newly minted psychiatrist and I finished the training I only knew one maybe two people in the entire Bay Area region who were also Muslim and in mental health and I said to them let's just meet and see what happens so we sent out a message into cyberspace and said you know if any of you are Muslim and mental health providers we're going to have a monthly meeting at Stanford come join us the very first meeting there were 10 people nobody knew anybody else but for the most part literally we're all looking at everyone I was going who are you and where did you come from and you're down the street I had no idea you're in this field too and it was like you know talk about a real process group everyone felt that they were an island all by themselves and as the months went on this became a monthly meeting and now we're called the Bay Area Muslim Mental Health Professionals Network and every month that met that we met the numbers kept growing and growing doubling and then tripling and quadrupling washallah until it became an actual you know steady group of people and what's really wonderful out of those initiatives is that it became really clear to me how many more people were coming through the pipeline but once they came to the other end and they really wanted to work with the Muslim community but they didn't have a lot of training and had to actually engage the community either right and what they were trained in was a very very western secular lens and they knew that too and they wanted that help and kind of get coming through and for those who are reaching out for that kind of help hence the trainings that we're doing for example with the Khalil Center of what of integrating Islam with professional therapy for those who wish to have that and there is a very strong substance of our community who does so in closing here I'll just say here that just like our ethicists have worked and especially our bio ethicists have worked quite a bit on the fatawa relating to things like abortion or relating to fertility based questions you know sperm bank or not you know things like this I also think that here there are very important fatawa and Islamic discussions that need to happen especially for all of our trainees that are coming through the pipeline who are one day going to be psychologists and psychiatrists and social workers and professional licensed therapy therapists they're going to need some really developed manuals and developed guidelines and how to answer and work with our patients this particular patient population of the Muslim segment of the population and I really encourage our ethicists to help us and our Islamic scholars to help us and likewise know that even though it's a we're talking about being in your own lane know that the lane is bi-directional there are two you know it's a two way road or maybe three or four for that matter and so we need people to really be cross collaborating to come up and be able to answer some of the best in the best way give the best practices for what will be continue to be ethical dilemmas from the beginning till the end here inshallah I'll close and if we have time for questions I'll take them Peace be upon you Peace be upon you