Welcome. The topic for this session is what do lessons from history tell us about the future of war? And to help us explore this topic we have three not polymaths but technically polyhistories. Historians who have thought long and hard about the relationship between war, statecraft and strategy. Dr. Ian Morris of Stanford University is the author most recently of War What Is It Good For? Sir Lawrence Friedman of Kings College London. His most recent book is Strategy of History. And Philip Bobbet of Columbia Law School is the author of The Shield of Achilles and a recent groundbreaking study of Machiavelli, the garments of court in palace. I'm going to start with Dr. Morris. As an archaeologist as well as a historian, you've taken truly the big picture approach from the ice age to the industrial era and come up with some paradoxical thinking about the relationship between war and politics. Could you explain? Yeah, sure. There's this famous saying that Winston Churchill is supposed to have said although no one has ever been able to trace it back to an actual source. He said, the farther you can look back, the farther forward you're able to see. And I've always felt that even if he didn't say it, this is the sort of thing he should have said. I think it's true. I guess it seems to me there's two big ways of trying to learn lessons from history about the future. One is what I think of as the grab bag approach where you've got an idea in your head you kind of already know what you think is going to happen. And then you look for analogies and you look for, say, one or two cases which kind of agree with what you think. And then the other way, which is the way I try to do it, is to say, well, if you take as much history as possible by which, like you say, 15,000 years going back to the end of the ice age across the whole planet, can we see really big trends? Can we see the overall shape of history? And if we can see that, can we figure out what the forces are that have been driving this storyline? And so this is basically what I try to do in my work. And in this book on war, I came to three main conclusions, I think, about the lessons that we might draw from this. And one is a sort of, like I said, a sort of paradoxical conclusion, which is that we're trespassing slightly now into the territory of the next panel where Stephen Ping is going to be talking. I think one of the big trends in world history has been declining rates of violent death, that if we'd lived in the Stone Age, we would be ten times likelier to die violently than we are today, which is a huge transformation. But I think that the great paradox of this story is that the force that's driven this, like Hobbes recognized in the 17th century, has been the rise of states and governments that kind of raise the costs for people of using violence. You ask me a difficult question, we get into an argument, I pull out a knife and cut your throat, I'm going to pay a price for this. And in the world we now live in, there's no way the benefits from murdering you, because you asked a question I couldn't answer, are ever going to be greater than the costs I will pay for doing it. So we are people in the modern world that are complex powerful governments have learned not to use force very much to settle their arguments compared to what went on through most of history. And so I think the big force has been the rise of great powerful states making it more and more difficult for people to use violence to get what they want from the world and people have started to use violence less. But that is a very broad conclusion. I think one potential implication is we maybe can afford to be optimistic and think this trend might continue across the next century. But I think a couple of other general lessons I thought we could draw from this big story. One is about the small wars that we've seen so much of in the last 20, 25 years. And I think this is not a new phenomenon. I think any time you get a great power that really dominates the stage it operates on and raises the costs of using violence for other competitors you tend to see a lot less interstate warfare. This is true say of the Roman Empire. True to some extent to the British world system in the 19th century. The costs of using violence go up. Potential rivals near peers are less inclined to use violence but you still get lots of small actors or asymmetrical actors saying well yeah of course the great power could come and crush us completely but they're not going to. I mean they're not going to nuke us. They're not going to put 100,000 troops on the ground to crush us so we're going to give it a try and see what happens. And I think you see some very similar patterns in the later Roman Empire in the late 19th century with the British as to what we've seen in the last couple of decades. And then the final thing though, the final conclusion I felt I could come to was about great wars and because a lot of people have been saying well we're in an age now where great power war is just off the table. Never going to happen. And I would say that the long-term lessons of history don't point in that direction. One thing again we see over and over again is when you get a truly great power dominating the stage it operates on one of the things you see happening is that it kind of creates its own rivals. It creates this peaceful international scene which allows space for other groups to become powerful and wealthy. Create your own rivals. I think British very much did this with Germany and the US in the late 19th century and I noticed yesterday when people were talking about potential threats facing the US there were names of one or two countries that conspicuously never got mentioned so perhaps this is some rule we're all supposed to abide by. I won't say what the obvious candidates are for the great powers we have helped create. But I think you can perhaps see something rather similar happening again now in the early 21st century. The success of the US in creating this world scale system of free trade has created new rivals to the US. And if the script of history does rerun itself I think one thing we'll see is people increasingly losing confidence in the ability of the Leviathan to continue playing the role of Leviathan. Being more and more tempted like a Germany a hundred years ago more and more tempted to try to solve their problems by violence. And if that is the way things go then I think the trend toward a more peaceful world might not be in fact a permanent one. Well thank you Sir Lawrence in your book Strategy you have an interesting definition of strategy as the art of creating power and in connection with that what do you think are lessons if any of history for strategy? Okay well first on the lessons of history I don't think history isn't a syllabus. People don't do things for didactic purposes. They do things because they have choices and they make decisions and things turn out in particular ways. So my approach is that you can learn from history but don't claim that history has lessons that are universal that can guide every action. Second point just relating to the topic of what does it teach us about the future of war. The problem of any attempt to determine the future of war and there's been some spectacular failures in the past when people have attempted to discern the future of war and that's one thing a historian can tell you is that people keep on getting it very wrong is because it depends on choices that are being made or have not yet been made. We're not destined to a particular future. There are forces at work, there are structures, there are demographic trends there are material limitations but we have choices and we have decisions and that's what strategy comes in. So my approach to strategy and again this comes from having written a very large history of it is that one of the things you look at is sometimes strategies are successful sometimes they're not but the unintended consequences are often as important as the intended consequences that if people said, you know, when you're told any of you are being told we must have a strategy the first thing you're probably said is describe what you're trying to achieve and then work out how to achieve it but actually very rarely do you achieve what you set out to achieve because things happen people you're dealing with have their own strategies it becomes a model and you suddenly see an opportunity that you didn't realise was there before so you often do something else and so actually strategy is a process of adoption a good strategy seems to be about adoption and flexibility and being aware that the things that you weren't expecting are going to be as important as the things that you were expecting so that leads into the idea well, first we want ideas of the book which is that don't think of strategy as a plan because the idea of a plan is a series of sort of sequential steps that takes you to where you want to be but doesn't actually allow for people who are actively trying to disrupt your plan and have got their own plans and the famous Von Malker quote of no plan survives contact with the enemy or my favourite, the Mike Tyson quote everybody's got a plan until they get punched in the throat so instead of thinking about plans you've got to think about it as something much more active and engaged with others so the definition of the art of creating power comes out of, I think, attention in the use of the word power so when we talk about somebody's being powerful we normally talk about that in terms of assets we've got great military strength, great economic strength soft power everybody thinks you're terribly interesting and wishes to emulate you or whatever soft power is and then there's a specific application so what I'm interested in with strategy is the specific applications where your general power may turn out to be absolutely useless to the circumstances in which you find yourself despite the fact that you've called yourself powerful so the strategy is the difference looking at an encounter between what you might expect just looking at the relative balance of the general power and actually what transpires strategy is the value added if you like what makes the difference and I found this is a reasonably serviceable definition but you have to have a particular view of power to make it work so that's why you need to read the book just another point that comes from that what makes for good strategy again historically I would argue there's a great tendency amongst people interested in strategy to want to be clever and cunning this is why Sun Tzu is so popular because he's basically saying you can outsmart your enemy even if he's bigger than you which is fine unless your opponent has also read Sun Tzu and then you never engage at all because you're doing indirect approaches and you go off in opposite directions so my view is if you just look back is what makes the difference is coalitions, alliances if you're not as strong as somebody else find somebody to work with you who can build you up and I think in this country it's important to stress this because actually what makes the United States the great power it is is its network of alliances take that away and why would the United States be bothering with a lot of the things it's doing and the reason that the United States is a more important power in China is China doesn't have a network of alliances nor is it likely to develop one so you need to look at coalition and alliances to understand the potential of strategy so just a sort of final observation seeing Ian started with Churchill I'll end on Churchill we always have to quote Churchill at least once if you want to be positive you quote Churchill if you want to be negative you quote Hitler we just can't escape from the Second World War but Churchill when he came to power in terrible circumstances in May 1940 and looked at the predicament that Britain was in he didn't have an end point at the time but basically the issue of survival and endurance and we've got to remember that a lot of strategy is nothing about setting out yourself great initiatives that you're going to achieve it's just hanging in there and that was what strategy was about but in the long term the first thing he did was to make contact with President Roosevelt which his predecessor had notably failed to do and when Pearl Harbor happened he said so we have won you hadn't won there was time to go but now a coalition had been formed that was not going to be beaten and when Hitler I mean strategy 101 don't invade Russia when Hitler did it and this great anti-Bolshevik found himself so ribbed in the House of Commons he said if Hitler had invaded Hades I'd have a good word to say to Satan in the House of Commons he understood the importance of coalition and I think if there's one point that the book tries to bring out is sometimes you can outsmart your opponent sometimes being cleverer works but actually by and large getting more strength than they have is a pretty good recipe and the best way to do that if you start off is to find a friend well you make that point in your book where you quote the Bible saying the race goeth not to the swift nor the battle to the strong and then you quote the American writer Damon Runyon who said but that's where the smart money is that's the way to bet Professor Bob it what do you think the main feature of the future of war will be it will be surprising and I say that not because the future is unpredictable which it is or uncertain which it is in fact I say that because that is what is predictable and certain the future of warfare will be surprising for two reasons one a general reason that's always true and then one specific to this generation the general reason is that because we cannot even a country as wealthy as ours defend against every vulnerability we try and defend those vulnerabilities that are likely to be attacked or perhaps those whose loss would be most significant for us by doing that we push our adversaries into unexpected areas they attack us in those arenas where we least expect it because we have defended those areas where we most expect to attack so the future of war will be surprising in January 2001 the Hart Rudman commission gave its final report it's hard to imagine a more distinguished group of people a very sophisticated group with quite a wide array of advisors the report missed global networked terror completely the report missed hybrid warfare the mix of insurgency terrorism cyber war and conventional war that tends to sort of paralyze alliance structures which Professor Friedman was very right to stress the report missed the fragility of our financial institutions and the fact that our increasing wealth is tied to our increasing vulnerability why? because in each of those areas America's strengths had pushed our adversaries into unexpected areas into novel alliances of their own novel arrangements, novel points of attack so the eternal reason is war will be surprising because we make it surprising and that should be no surprise the specific reason for the generation of young people I see in the room here is that we do live as you so often hear at a pivotal moment but what you rarely hear is why it is pivotal for the last hundred and fifty years or so we have lived in the constitutional order of industrial nation states this is an order conceived and innovated by Lincoln in this country by Bismarck in Germany a constitutional order that challenged the imperial states of the 19th century and it also dominated for a more than a century if you think that you live in nation states that are Westphalian states that were basically founded in 1648 then I think you are living in a delusion that will blind you to what is really novel what is really pivotal about this time we do not live in kingly states the constitutional order that originated at Westphalia that was ratified by those two treaties we do not live in princely states the first modern states that preceded kingly states we do not live in imperial states or territorial states we live in industrial nation states and their pedigree is not as ancient or as distinguished as we pretend once you freed your mind from the idea that the constitutional order is eternal in the modern era you will be more sensitive to see what changes are underway now that are bringing about a change in that order and what the new order will look like you will see a state that is more devolved or decentralized more favorable to nationalism outsources and privatizes its activities that is global and that is networked this is partly a consequence of changes in warfare but it will also drive changes in warfare and warfare from the 21st century will be more devolved decentralized more networked more informational more outsourcing more privatized and more global it will also be more nationalistic and more ethnic those shouldn't be surprising to us except that we we don't expect it none of the really important books on the future of the 21st century that were written into the 20th century even discuss the state the state is held constant and just the furniture of economics and representation is moved around most of the time that's a wise assumption but it won't be true now things will be changing in a way that is both surprising and momentous well thank you I think what is interesting from all of these comments is the omission of what are usually thought of as lessons of history for foreign policy of the kind that are frequently invoked here in Washington DC where we have what I think of as the Potomac School of History with four lessons there's the lesson of Sarajevo which is that world wars can start completely by accident there's the lesson of Munich which is you can never negotiate there's the lesson of Vietnam which is escalation will lead to a quagmire and then the fourth lesson is that all adversaries are just like Hitler that's the instrumental promiscuous way to use or rather abuse history in policy debates you know if you're addressing policy makers and we'll go in reverse order because it's not that you're going to leave history out of debate it's already in there the conception of where we are is there a way that policy makers who are not academics can think in a clear way other than simply reaching for this metaphor or that metaphor you know ransacking the past to start in reverse order with Professor Bobbitt well I think there is of course but your approach to this I think is wiser than am I telling you how to do it how not to do it seems to me to be the better part of wisdom here we reach for analogies and metaphors to shore up the ideas that we already have and that's fine that's a natural form of language but then we can reach into the same toolbox and extract lessons for the future is an idle pursuit any time you hear someone say history teaches us that you should look at your watch think about your wife and your husband I wonder what your children are up to but you need pay any further attention Professor Friedman Professor Friedman you're exactly right that when people talking about the lessons of history they mean Munich and what actually they're doing is saying I really don't think we should be talking to the Iranians gosh this reminds me of Munich and then it's as useful as the Chamberlain in terms of time saying this reminds me of how the Union dealt with secession because that's the distance between the two as if there's no other interesting diplomatic history between 1938 and now that we could look to to understand how you might deal with it but that's not what they're trying to do it's basically a shorthand for making a point it's not actually using history situations draw comparisons if you do that it can be quite interesting there's a book that just come out of Harvard because a year ago people were saying this is 1914 what's going to produce a great war in 2014 why? it could be the United States and China and Prime Minister Abbey was foolish enough to make the comparison so Harvard's produced a book with lots of distinguished people on the first war writing very interesting stuff about the first world war about which there is no consensus about how it started and why well it's actually quite different so it's perfectly sensible conclusion but it's not very exciting but it does illuminate the differences what you want policymakers to do with history is read it find out about the places they're about to invade people have been there before and had trouble that's what history is good for context background you don't have to say what the British experienced in the early 20s is how the last century is how the Americans are going to experience Iraq now but at least know that these things happened and it's part of the memory of those countries and the culture of those countries so rather than you know ram sack history to find examples as Philip suggested that support whatever position you'd come to beforehand anyway taking events out of context learn do your learning from history by reading it and actually investing the time to understand the particularities of situations and the choices that people made can I come back to my starting point that just going back to 1914 big review of all the different books on 1914 what you come down to is absolutely terrible decision making people had choices and they made the wrong ones you couldn't predict that if they'd be faced with a similar set of choices but a year later that it probably turned out different but that's how it happened at the time that sort of thing that you can do from just learning your history Professor Morris, should there be a historical Hippocratic oath do you know harms by misusing history all the historians would have been fired by now if we had that I think my learned colleagues have already the smart points about this so I can be pretty brief logicians will often say there's two kinds of analogies you can make when you're comparing things one is the formal analogy which I think is the sort of thing you are both casting aspersions on where you say oh god it's always 1938 we are always across the table from Adolf Hitler therefore we must do X whatever my chosen pet rock happens to be we must do that but not always a very good way to proceed then the second way they'll say is what they'll call a relational analogy where instead of saying you go to the past to plunder it for the example that supports my case you'll say you go to the past to try to see how things fit together, what the relations were and you'll be as interested in the differences as in the similarities and so maybe you will want to talk about 1938 but you say well how is our situation here different from what Chamberlain and Hitler were confronting are there things we could do which Chamberlain didn't do which will lead to a better outcome that's the way I think we should be thinking about history but again it does sort of come back to the point that Lawrence was making that you need to know some history to do this you can't just go with the four points in Potomac School of History we've got time for some questions any questions from the audience yes way in the back if we could get a microphone there Mohamed Binou with Humanize Global this question might be a follow-up on what Mr. Bobbitt said but I'd like to direct it to all the panelists and today's international system and international law we're trying to box sovereignty within territorial boundaries but we see actors like ISIS trying to erase territorial boundaries Russia by its actions is ignoring its boundaries its territory the territorial system as being a lasting trend in history or is it fading away Professor Bobbitt would you like to start let's say a bit of both the the real leap occurs from a feudal world to the first modern states and so our terms of international law force states, personality identity, integrity sovereignty, continuity or all terms that were applied to the person of a prince and are then transformed into the structure of an immortal state territoriality is part of that but just as your question implies we can already see markets in territoriality and sovereignty the European Union being a great example Turkey was applying with more hope than perhaps it has now to become a member the European Union said as a sovereign state you are entitled to have capital punishment and we're not trying to interfere with that but if you want to join this union you'll have to renounce that that's a market in sovereignty and one can easily imagine states that have legal structures that are extra territorial and or like the sovereign status the semi sovereign status of Indian tribes that are non-territorial Sir Lawrence there's an enormous variety of state formations now the European state system is very different it seems to me in all sorts of ways from the Asian one different again from the Middle Eastern one and so on but it's worth starting at one point is most territory is now spoken for and it's pretty clear who does own it where the boundaries are set and what you have are a series of challenges ISIL describes itself as a state I mean it's not suggesting it's something how it imagines this state will actually develop and function who knows while being aggressive is still working within the terminology and the pretence that actually it's following international law that these are autonomous movements desperate for a degree of self-determination and maybe it's making it up as it goes along but it hasn't broken away from the ways of thinking of the traditional international system in terms of how it presents so what we're seeing is a series of different types of challenges and different types of probes which will leave the system every month, every year looking a little different I think the ISIL challenge is essentially not so much their concept of a new state system but the breakdown of one that existed actually it almost had the characteristics of the one that Philip was describing from olden times of a strong man dominated particular states and all those strong men have gone and now some strong men are trying to all men are trying to recreate it in Egypt and so on but that seems to be it's the collapse of an old Middle East that's created what's going on rather than the creation necessarily the new one Do you want to comment? Yeah, I think territorial states have not always been with us they're about 5,000 years old and there's no reason to think they're going to go on forever I think the modern nation states version of the territorial state was a very good solution to a lot of the problems governments in Europe were facing in the 19th century but now we're facing different problems and so new forms of organization are becoming increasingly popular they're nibbling away I think of the territorial state both from super-state organizations like the UN and the European Union and from below by NGOs and characters like the Islamic State in the Middle East I think with the Islamic State they do call themselves Islamic State but they also like to say they're a new caliphate and a caliphate is not a state in the sense in which we think of it and I think often people will see these claims they're making to be a caliphate which is as much a religious organization as a state but I think we should actually take them more seriously I think a lot of the things Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi takes his name from Abu Bakr the first caliph and a lot of the things they're trying to do really are strikingly reminiscent of what the original caliphs did and it's a different kind of organization and so yeah I think the question was absolutely right I think we are seeing the transformation of the current system of territorial states One word I would like to see banished is non-state actor I think this confuses more than it clarifies because it confuses radically different groups some which are like international drug traffickers or perhaps some militant movements like anarchists that have no political ambitions and it conflates these with revolutionary movements which are non-state actors until they can seize power in a state and it's just like terrorism at that point they can seize being terrorists because they have an army and a navy and police and border security so the German National Socialist Workers Party was a non-state actor until 1933 it then became a state Lenin's communists were non-state actors until the October Revolution in 1917 and particularly if you look at these groups which I think are best described as Salafist jihadists you know these are revolutionaries we've sort of dropped the word revolution but these are revolutionary political ideologies that seek state power if they can get it we have one more question right up your front row the microphone is coming I'm Harlan Oman I really want to provoke the panel you talk about uncertainty obviously an unpredictability and you can argue that economists have predicted 5,000 of the last two recessions but some people have been fairly predictive about future war 1929 the navy war games Rear Admiral Ernie King made the attack that was replicated by the Japanese in World War II the navy was very good in thinking about World War II the army war college was very good thinking about the same thing you read Guderian you read De Gaulle and so forth we had a movie if you can bring it to a question I'm going to bring it to a question in a second we had a movie that predicted the events of September 11 and even the Rudman heart panel predicted a terrorist attack on the United States they were wrong by 19 years and 6 months so you have predictability here how do you examine that what appears to be good predictions about the future can indeed be launched into a policy arena or is that just too difficult anyone want to take this? I think thinking about the future is immensely valuable I worked for a while with the shell global scenarios who have a marvelous team every few years puts together these scenarios for the future but thinking about the future is going to be our two very different activities thinking about the future is like a safe cracker filing down his fingertips it just makes you more sensitive to things that are happening on the horizon and prevent you from assimilating them in kind of a complacent way to what's going on now but predicting the future is I think a real snare when Lori was talking about the flexible nature of successful strategies I was thinking about a parallel in chess most chess players have a favorite opening that they master and they study responses to the opening but some chess players simply open up the center try and control it, protect the king and see what happens are there responses? yeah difficulty I mean you can always find examples of people who were apparently very prescient but you also have to look at all the other things they were saying at the time as well so just take two great examples H.G. Wells who people would argue is sort of the founder of modern futurology who talked about the atom bomb but he also described the first world war as the war to end all wars and some of the things he said just seemed amazing and spot on when you read his books now something just seemed absolutely ludicrous Herman Kahn who was another one who used to produce these sort of lists of futures and he had the exact date right in 1960 or maybe 62 of when the US would put a man on the moon but the other prediction was just completely balmy so looking back you can say if only we paid attention to that but you then have to ignore all the other stuff and know that that was the prediction that was likely to come right so it's a difficult game I agree with Phil that basically you need to think and of course a responsible government needs to prepare recognize there are contingencies and some of these are pretty obvious some of you have a great British civil servant Michael Quinlan who was eventually leading our ministry of defence who observed that the real problem with defence planning is things that you prepared for didn't happen precisely because you prepared for them and the things that you hadn't prepared for they were the things that you hadn't prepared for well those sound like genuine lessons of history that's a lesson of history for you Doctor Morse, last word very quickly I think the most valuable thing about making the predictions is the way it forces you to think about the assumptions you're making and this is something I learned actually from talking to financial planners that there's any number of possible predictions you can make about how the markets are likely to behave in the future on the basis of how they've behaved in the past with sometimes very small shifts in the assumptions like the old saying about planning is all important it's the process of thinking about what assumptions am I making I think that's where drawing lessons from the past and projecting them forward that's where I think it comes in most useful Our distinguished historians agree with Yogi Berra that prediction is hard especially about the future please join me in thanking them


Welcome to Nursing School Explained in this video on anaphylactic shock. So what happens physiologically, it is an acute, life-threatening, allergic reaction. Most commonly the triggers can be insects and bee stings are very common here. Benons such as from a poisonous animal and that can be anything like from a scorpion to a snake. Drugs and antibiotics can be the cause here or you might be familiar with ACE inhibitors being able to cause angioedema and then maybe even anaphylaxis. And then people can be allergic or anaphylactic to food as well. And common things that come to mind here are peanuts for example. So what happens the body responds to the exposure to the trigger by massive vasodilation which then causes a very significant and sudden drop in blood pressure and it can lead to circulatory failure. All of a sudden the blood vessels are completely leaky and the patient loses all their intravascular volume. And then release of vasodilactic mediators occurs that are in response to this trigger which increases the capillary permeability and that also affects the lungs and then we have all this fluid and constriction of the bronchioles leading to laryngeal edema and bronchospasm which can be life-threatening if not treated in a timely manner.


Hello there, thank you so much for joining today's stream of 100 days. My name is Anise, I'm going to be your host for this show 100 days. Specifically today we're going to build a roadmap for the CNCF landscape. Now, if you've come across this channel before, you might have seen some of the trailers. Specifically the trailer for this week and next week and the upcoming shows. So I highly suggest you to subscribe since I think there's something for everybody. This is one show and then there are several different shows. Cat is going to have a show tomorrow, which is Cat's classroom where she's going to explore with the maintainers of different projects within the CNCF. I think specifically sandbox projects, what their project is all about. It's basically a one-on starter guide. Now, if you're in the chat, maybe say hi, where are you from? Just so I know who's there, who's present, who's listening in right now. Again, my name is Anise and just some housekeeping items real quick before we get started. This is an official CNCF livestream and as such, we are under the CNCF Code of Connect. So please, if you get involved, and I hope you get involved in the chat, please bear that in mind and be respectful to each other in your questions and your comments and so on. Hello there, thank you for joining. Yeah, so this is going to be really interactive. What we're going to do today is we are going to look at the CNCF landscape. If you have never looked at it, if you're completely new to Kubernetes to the CNCF and everything related, then this is for you as well as if you are already really familiar with all of this. This is also for you because I will meet heavily, I will rely heavily on your input to create a roadmap of such that we can use as a starting point of where do you get started when you first want to look at different CNCF projects, when you want to familiarize yourself with the CNCF and the projects involved in future livestreams. And this livestream is every two weeks. So again, subscribe if you want to stay up to date with those streams. We are going to explore different projects from a startup perspective of what are the resources available for you when you just first start looking at those different projects. What is the first onboarding experience to different projects? But to do that, at the beginning, we want to have kind of an idea of what are we actually looking at. So if you're in a chat right now, maybe you want to comment, do you have already experienced with Kubernetes?  If you don't have experience, maybe give a zero. That would give a great indicator of me structuring the stream and the way I talk, I guess. You don't have to put in a chat. That would be really amazing. I'm just going to keep an eye on the chat. So I will be seeing if you put anything in. So again, if you have any experience with Kubernetes and the CNCF, maybe give a shout out. Have you been to any other CNCF events, live streams of similar or your curious to just get started? Yeah, I would love to have you input in the chat. So let's jump into my, well, my repository of getting started building a roadmap of thank you for your input. I don't know. What's it? Ah, I guess your name is Kuna. Basic Kubernetes experience. Awesome. That's great to hear. There's another stream by CEM next week that's going to focus specifically on Kubernetes and getting started with Kubernetes and related and preparing for exams. So I highly suggest you to check that stream out as well. If you're completely new to Kubernetes or you want to improve your skills. So again, we are going to be creating a CNCF landscape roadmap of such. So when we go ahead and look for CNCF landscape in this case, I'm just going to pretend I'm a complete beginner to this.  So this is what we're going to be focusing on. But this is obviously when you first look at this is quite overwhelming, right? But when you want to get started with specific projects in this space, right? You will need to start somewhere and the most reliable source in that case is probably the CNCF website and their resources. So let's go ahead and maybe check out just for CNCF and look at what resources we can find additionally to help us get started. Now I have this repository here that I will fill later on with all the resources that I'm going to be looking at throughout the stream. So you can also check those out later on. They are all going to be here. Also the roadmap that we're going to be creating. We're going to be drawing it here on Xcalidraw, which is pretty cool. So I'm going to be basically walking you through through it and you can also provide input on where you would get started, what projects you would use for your own learning purposes and so on. So let's assume we are completely new to the CNCF and the CNCF landscape and we want to get started learning about and learning about some of the projects. We might have some Kubernetes experience already. We might have taken some of the exams and we want to advance kind of to the next level or expand more our skills in contributing to open source and getting familiar with all those cloud native projects since we heard a lot about them, right? So where we can do next, we look for, we might Google CNCF and we come to the website and we're like, okay, cool. This sounds all amazing. What they do is amazing. The different initiatives. Great. So where do we get started? Projects. Okay. I want to look at different projects. Now I'm taking some biased guesses here since I've already looked at some of those resources, obviously. We're going to look at sandbox projects and then graduated incubating projects for starters, for example. And that might narrow down some of the projects we're seeing here. So sandbox projects when a new project is going to get donated or onboarded to the CNCF and bear in mind, I'm as new as you and most people are to this. Most likely. Again, comment in the chat. Have you ever looked at this page or is it the first time that you're looking at this? I remember the first time I was going through these different resources and I was highly confused for a long time about the difference of sandbox and incubating projects. And we're going to look at that in a second in a bit more detail. But it's not as intuitive when you're just getting started. Yeah. Exactly. The landscape is really overwhelming. So if you look at the sandbox projects and those are basically the projects that are just getting started that just have been become part of the CNCF. And if Bill is watching, maybe correct me or if other people have other thoughts and other explanations of what is a sandbox project and more resources, then please link that in the chat. I would also love to explore more further on. But yeah, I linked that in the repository as well later. So these are sandbox projects. And as you can see here a bunch listed, but if we scroll down, we can see they are not like it's not a super, super extensive list. Like this is still like a big list, but it's not as crazy as looking directly at the CNCF landscape. And by narrowing it down like this, which is, okay, we first landed on this page, right? We were like, oh my God, this is like, this is a lot to take in. But now that we narrow it down, we came to the sandbox project side. It's a bit more visible of like, okay, there are not that many projects if we kind of narrow it down more, right? And then if we look, graduating and incubating projects, and these are projects that are more advanced or have already fulfilled certain criteria to graduate from the, from this program, let's say. And as you can see here, you're also not that many projects. Now, if we're confused about what is sandbox incubating, graduating here, the different majority levels that are listed here. And also the details, basically you can find on what does it like, what does a project need to fulfill to be a graduating project? What criteria do they have to pass to, to move from sandbox to incubation to graduation? And at each level, they will get different support from the community, different interaction, I guess, in the community between the community and the project. And then as time passes and the projects become more reliable, they can move into incubation and graduation. Now at sandbox, we usually have projects that are maybe a bit crazy ideas, really technical maybe, and they are not as yet too adopted by the community. So if we're looking at sandbox projects, we likely find, I guess, projects that are not, yeah, that don't have necessarily resources available that are created by the community. They are still in their starting phases of getting to that point where more people are going to use it and when more people are going to use it in a way that has to be reliable and so on. And as time progresses and the project progresses, we will find more resources on them. But this is just really, I guess, useful to know when you're looking at the different projects that there are different types of projects. Now, looking again at the CNC landscape, we can filter by those different types of projects actually to make this a bit more happier to look at, let's say. So where can we filter? Let's click here. No, this is not what I want to filter at. Let's see. Let's click just through it. And no, this is also not what I wanted to filter at. I'm looking for the different types and I can't seem to find it. CNCF. Relation. That's the one. Okay. So I just want to filter by CNCF projects. As you can see, once I click the filter, the number of different projects reduces by a lot. And I like to use your designology of like, first, when you get started in a new space, when you get started, for example, in the cloud native ecosystem and you come across this, it's quite overwhelming, right? You feel quite, maybe unsure, maybe a bit, you have this iffy feeling and you're telling me like, oh my God, what's going on, right? I don't know if that's how you feel when you first looked at it. That's definitely how I first felt when I looked at this. But narrowing down the search and the different projects that are there can be quite helpful. Maybe you have different suggestions on how you would filter projects. So this is basically how I would go ahead if I'm not sure yet which resources to rely on. Like there are the CNCF resources, but there are also lots and lots of other resources. But the problem is, as a beginner, you might not necessarily know which ones are reliable, which ones you should be focusing on, and which ones might be community generated and opinionated, right? So this is one way to kind of navigate the space at the beginning, I guess. Now, I'm taking some informed guesses here. I'm saying informed guesses since I'm for sure not the best person to the most, I guess, the most advanced person in the space to take those informed guesses. But when we get started with those different projects, a lot of them rely on using Kubernetes directly. They have maybe alternatives of not using Kubernetes with their setup, but a lot of times you want to be using Kubernetes. So we first let's go back to the drawing board and let's start filling out our roadmap. Hello there, Risha. Thank you for joining. I'm keeping an eye out in the chat. So if you have any thoughts, anything, any comments on anything I'm showing you, drop that in the chat because this is literally just me talking, right? So it's nice to have a conversation if you're the only presenter in a live stream, right? Okay, so let's have a, I guess, let's have a starting point here. This is our starting point. Okay, this is what we're going to call start. And we want to get started exploring the CNCF landscape. Now I hope I'm doing this right here. And we want to first figure out what is the first step that we're going to take, right? This is kind of the onboarding experience that you take. And you can, I guess, find a lot of these different mind maps online of like, this is your onboarding path into DevOps or into this industry or space. And ultimately it will rely a lot of times on your existing skill level, I guess. At least that's the type would see it. Maybe comment your suggestions, your feedback, your thoughts on how you felt when you, the last time got started with a new topic. It could be any new topic, even like a new recipe that you cooked or something like, I don't know. But you have usually at the beginning, you have some questions, right? That has to, that have to be answered, right? And one of those questions might be where do I get started or what do I learn first? What do I learn first? I hope you can see this. I'm going to try to talk about everything I'm putting in here. So you can, if you're watching on a mobile phone, you can still follow along. So don't be intimidated by not seeing what I'm putting here. I'm also going to put it later in this GitHub repository so you can find it there and put comments and issues and everything like that. Who else is in the chat? Okay. So somebody's saying, Avin, I think, I don't know what your name is. I'm sorry if I'm mispronouncing any name. I've always found out that starting with the CNCF trail map is always better than jumping into the CNCF landscape. What is the CNCF trail map? I'm not sure. Do you have a link to the trail map? I don't know what it is. So that might actually be helpful for this exercise here, right? What diagram tool is this? This is X-CaliDRAW, which is a pretty cool tool that you can use to draw these nice diagrams that we're going to explore now. But so what do I want to learn first? So as we figured out, a lot of these projects, where are they? They rely on Kubernetes to be used or they are enhancing Kubernetes and the use of Kubernetes in one way or another. And that's why we likely want to get started with Kubernetes first. Need tests. Talking and writing is another challenge that I hopefully at the end of these streams get better used to. So with Kubernetes was actually the first graduating project from the CNCF. Now, with Kubernetes, we can look at, well, I guess the Kubernetes starter resources that are leading them to exams and diving into Kubernetes. That would be like the first thing, I guess. So Kubernetes overview of some sorts, how we want to call it. Again, Sam is hosting a show that's showing you how you can navigate through the Kubernetes documentation and get started next week. So check that out if you want to get started with an overview of Kubernetes and related resources. Just keeping an eye on the chat. Okay, just reading the chat. Okay, there's a question. If a well-structured and big project is made, can that be directly promoted to incubating level or the path will be the same? I think the path is going to be the same. I don't think projects can jump to different levels. Where are we again? I don't think they can just jump ahead. I don't think that's the case since they want to enforce this really neutral governance structure of processes going through the same steps and becoming like a neutral, basically being within a neutral ground within the CNCF. I guess they can move at different paces depending on how they advanced through this different stages, but I might be completely wrong. So that might also be wrong. Oh, here's the link to the trail map. Let's open that up. Okay, I'm opening up the CNCF trail map. Okay. Oh, yeah. I wanted to look at that in a second. Awesome. Thank you so much for suggesting that. So again, here we have, we will look at this in a second more. But here I love this analogy of like navigating the forest when you're getting started with a new technology, new technologies kind of finding your way through. Awesome. We will use this resource. This is amazing. So let's assume we have taken over step and got started with Kubernetes. And now we want to explore this different projects that are here within the CNCF landscape. And let me go back to the chat. Awesome. Keep the questions coming and comments and everything all the input. I'm keeping an eye on the chat. So great. I love the input. So what do we want to do next? So next we want to likely look at how can we deploy applications? How can we deliver our applications and develop with Kubernetes in mind for all deployments? Now I'm hoping I'm using the right terminology here and people can follow. Okay. So just reading the chat. Cool. So how do we get started next? So next I would look at different, what are the different deployment tools that we can use? Now at this point, I personally used Helm as my first, like the first tool to make deployments happen with Kubernetes. So I would suggest, okay, let's get started with Helm next. But then if we look at different, here different roadmaps, let's say, there are a lot of times there are other projects such as Argo that I recommended on providing continuous delivery, on delivering those projects, let's say, on Kubernetes. So let's split that down further, right? Like after we got started with Kubernetes, we want to get started now with different deployments. Delivery deployment. How should I call this application delivery? Hey, Dan. I never know how to call you. Welcome. So who else is in the chat? Oh, wow. We have some people watching now. That's exciting. Okay. So how I need your input here. How should I call this app delivery or deployment delivery? Take your best guesses in the chat CD and let us guess something else, some more descriptive.  Should I just write continuous delivery, but then application delivery. Let's write application delivery, application delivery. Okay. So we want to deliver our applications, right? So from there, we can then look at different tools that help us to make that happen, right? Now going back to the CNC landscape, they're next to Agu. There are two other different projects, which we might then want to look at as well. Like again, we're just getting started, right? We want to explore the different projects that are available there and help us to navigate the space and to improve our use of Kubernetes as well and help us to get familiar with the CNC landscape and the different projects within. So I'm going to put home here since it's not necessarily ever put it here, since it's not directly related to app delivery in the same way that those other tools, I don't know how to move to the side. I should probably practice using this tool. So we're going to put this here, I guess, since I can't move right now to the side. And we're going to just write home here. So I'm going to zoom in now so you can all read this better. So, and then we want to get started with different app delivery tools, projects, app delivery. Okay, app delivery sounds better. You're right. Also, so the CNCF has a bunch of different initiatives that you can credit get lost in, but they also have different special interest groups, six, and they renamed it to tags. And I forgot what, what tags stands for right now. But there's one that's called app delivery. So if you're curious on that, there are different working groups and similar that work on these kind of problems. So we want to get started with different projects that help us to better enhance, so deployments, let's say. So when we look at, well, the landscape, and then we look at this roadmap, it tells us, okay, we should probably after we know about Kubernetes and continuation and all that good stuff, we want to get started with projects such as Agro. Now I'm not going to read the details here because I'm not wearing my glasses, but also because usually people don't have time, or you can go into that in your free time and so on, right? So if you're just identified, there's Agro on it. So we might want to check it out, right? And then we can look at other resources that also maybe reference Agro. And that might help us to take to, oh, technical advisory group, that's what tags, tags stands for TAG. So awesome, technical advisory group.  So if you're curious about the stuff, there's, you might also want to check out David's live stream, where he's going to show you how to contribute to those different projects. He's going to show you how you get started with those projects. And then David in his live stream, he's going to show you how to basically contribute within an hour directly to those projects. So if you're curious about that, follow again here on Twitch. It's going to be probably really, really interesting. So I'm also going to look forward to that. But here, let's continue with this roadmap. This is what we're here for, right? So we want to get, no, Agro, you have to write it correctly. So we have to use Agro. So if we look at Agro and I can't, oh, it's getting me again, directly to Agro. So once we start looking at Agro, we can see, okay, it has something to do with workflows and pipelines, continuous delivery, rollouts, events. Now at this point, I might not necessarily know what all of this stands for, which is completely cool. I don't have to know all of that, right? A lot of times you will look at projects and you will look at their terminology. And you're like, okay, I don't know what this means. And that's cool, right? You don't have to know that. Most people don't know. No, I hope people know. Some people know. But basically what this tells us is that it has something to do with Kubernetes and workflows. And let's just go through it. Yeah. So I assume with deployments. If it's referencing something like Canary and Blue Green that usually refers to deployments here, we have deployment strategies. Okay. We keep Agro there. Awesome. Now we probably want to also look at some of the other projects that are listed here. Now I haven't looked at these three, but you can maybe provide me some info in the chat of which thing you think I should add as well in addition to Agro. Or if I should not keep Agro in that roadmap, just drop it in the chat. That would be really cool. Okay. Cool. I'm just reading the chat one second. The continuous part is important. Automatic app delivery to production from development through testing as a chain pipeline. Okay. The continuous delivery. I agree. Okay. That's important. We will get to that. I think with app delivery, I'm more referring to we can keep it. We can write continuous delivery or something related. I think with app delivery, I think more generic of any, like just get any app to a place where it can be deployed if that makes sense. Now we can completely rewrite this. Okay. I'm just going to put, do you have a tube? Since they look big, right? I'm going to put Flagger and Flux there. And then we see how we, how we get on from there. Flagger and Flux. Now at this point, I haven't checked out most of them, right? Like I'm probably as clueless as most people who get started. Now, once I know, I guess how to deliver an application, how to, they're different projects that helped me do that. I want to look at what's next from there. Where do I go? Right? Okay. I'm here now. Please load. Okay. So I have these two, right? I have focused on these, on these two parts. Now I want to next look into observability analysis. Now this already sounds quite advanced if you're just getting started, but maybe if you already have experience, just not experience with doing it with those cloud native projects or with Kubernetes specifically, then this might be still, this might be really hopeful, right? Those, those different projects and looking at that. And it might not be as scary as if you're just getting started. But if you're just getting started with all of this, it might be quite scary to look at those projects, but we will get to that. Okay. So the next thing is to just, is observability and analysis. So we're going to add that here. Again, we're just going to create, I'm going to base my future streams off this roadmap folks. Okay. So the more you input, the more you're shaping my future streams, which would be amazing. I would highly appreciate your input. So if you have any thoughts of any project, it really has to be included in this roadmap, just drop it in the chat, because even though we might not be finishing the entire roadmap today, I will still be reading the chat and I will see your comments and you can also reach out afterwards after the stream. So I can put it into the roadmap. And then we're going to get started with those different projects. And basically they are onboarding resources in the next streams. So, I don't know your name, but somebody wrote in the chat, whenever you see incubating projects, what does that mean? Does it mean, could not pan out? I don't know what pan out is. I'm not a native speaker, but I guess like that it didn't work out or something. Why would you pick something incubating or intact when they are graduated project that confused me? That's a really amazing question. Okay. Let's look at that first. Let me just put your analysis. And let's put this in the next line. Observability. Okay. So we want to look at analysis and observability next. Oh, then provided a link. Let's look at the link. So this is the link that I have open here as well. And here basically these are the sandbox projects and when a project. So this is in my own terminology explained. So let's say I'm a really amazing company or I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm some person with some extra free time and I have a crazy idea and I get together with some other people at one of those cloud native conferences and we're like, Hey, let's start this project. Right. We think there is a need for this specific tool. Let's create an open source project that is this tool. And then we create this amazing project or tool or something. Right. But obviously when we are working maybe from different companies or if we're all from the same company and we're working on a project, we have certain biases and we have certain interests in the direction of this project and so on. So we might want to have an independent entity that kind of takes care and houses of sorts, the project that we created and provides us with a structure to advance the project. And in that case, they are then given to the CNCF and it's like, basically here's this amazing project that we want to advance further. Here's our plan and how we want to advance it further. Help us advance it further. So in Sandbox, you can see a lot of interesting new projects that are maybe also quite experimental and that are not necessarily rightly adopted but like getting there. They are basically advancing further. Oh, there's somebody from Eddie Hub. Hello. Cool. So let's go back to this. Yeah. There's, no, I got distracted. I distracted myself. I'm sorry about that. So they are really cool projects here. It's somewhat really experimental and really crazy and help us to do really cool stuff that might be, however, really, really niche. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe some of them have ideas that are not yet tested or not yet advanced to the level that they really should be adopted by a lot of companies and projects. So a lot of these projects, all these projects then start off as Sandbox and then from there they advance further. Here's, oh, here's a ha, here's a, you can read this. Good. Yeah. Thank you for the suggestion. Awesome. Here. Those are the different goals. So you can read about that. This is just my interpretation of it. And then at some point they get into, they voted by those technical advisory tag groups. They are previously called six. They are voted into, they can be voted into incubation if they fit certain criteria. And from there onwards they get different support from the CNCF and they can advance further within the CNCF to become graduating project. Now they have to show a certain number of community involvement in a certain maturity level for their project. So if you get started with a new project, like especially, I mean, if it's for your learning experience, it doesn't matter. I wouldn't say it mattered as much. If you get started with Sandbox or incubating project, Kat is going to have tomorrow a first live stream with, I think Tinkerbell it was, I don't know Tinkerbell, but it's a project that's a Sandbox project, I believe. And she's going to interview some of the maintainers who are creating Tinkerbell. And so it doesn't mean that you shouldn't use those projects. It just means that there might be, since a project is not around for that long and hasn't reached such a traction in the community yet, that there might be a few less resources available for you to get started. So this is like some of the aspects I would keep in mind when you're getting started with Sandbox, using Sandbox projects. And then obviously like the different support available by those projects themselves, how they are currently used by projects in development or production environments and similar. So with incubating and graduating projects, you can place generally higher confidence in those projects and the resources that you should be able to find. That's what I would say. Maybe some other people in the chat have other comments, other suggestions and thoughts on this. But this is a really, really good question. So thank you for that question. Oh yeah. So it doesn't mean, I'm not sure if I guess some projects can stay in Sandbox and then just, I don't know, die. I'm not sure. I don't want to say anything wrong, but like I guess not making it into incubation, I guess that could happen. I wouldn't know why it shouldn't, like why it could not happen. But I guess the general path is that there's a commitment like once it's within the CNCF that there's also certain, especially from incubation onwards, there's a certain level of commitment within the community. What drawn map binds to the 100 days of Kubernetes? I would get to that as well. That's also a really good question. How is the map related to 100 days of Kubernetes? Now, this is 100 days specifically for the CNCF landscape. And let's continue a bit with the roadmap. And then I can kind of detail on how it relates as well to 100 days of Kubernetes as a personal project, I guess. Comment maybe plus one if you also want to hear about how it relates to, like this relates to maybe initiatives. Now, I really like this path here. Once it loads, this path of like, how do you get started? What are the different tools that you should be looking at? This is super, super handy since it breaks down obviously a lot of these projects. Now we have over here, we have Prometheus. We have Yaga and I can't, we have open tracing and fluent D. Okay. So we will add Prometheus. We will add open tracing. There was another one here that I guess I would look at. Where are they here? Oh, here. Thanos. Okay. Let's add those. Let's add those here. Maybe five. I have never, should I add cortex? I haven't looked at cortex. So I need your input here. Okay. I haven't looked at most of these. So if you know, if you know these projects here on the right, maybe I can zoom in. Let me zoom in for a second. Okay. If you have seen these projects here on the right before comment in the chat which ones I should add definitely to the roadmap. And remember this roadmap is for people who are just getting started within the cloud native landscape ecosystem. Okay. So comment in the chat if just, I don't know, maybe the ones that, which logo you like best. Can I zoom in on this? Yeah. Here. Okay. Which logo do you like best? Or which project here should I get started on? If you're on a, maybe on a mobile screen so you can see this better. Okay. Let's zoom out again and go back to full screen. No, this is, this is just my face. You don't want to see my face. Okay. Cool. Prometheus. Okay. I should get started with Prometheus. What else? I want to, okay. More questions on 100 days of Kubernetes. We will get to those in a second as well. Okay. Prometheus and I have Fluent D. So let's add those first. I will look at all those projects we put here. Okay. That's the more content I will have. Hey. Okay. Prometheus. I hope I spell it everything correct. Prometheus and Fluent D. Is it called that? I haven't looked it. Let's look it up. Fluent D CNCF. Like that. Let's just Google. We Google here a lot. Okay. Let's look at this. What else can we look at? Let's look at this. What is this about? Here. Okay. This is an announcement. We don't want to look at announcements. Okay. Spotlight. Awesome. Now I want to just have a primer. Where can I find a primer on Fluent D? This one should give me a primer now. Okay. Here we go. Okay. Boltun. Unified logging layer. Okay. It's a logging system. Awesome. So it belongs there. Cool. We keep it. Okay. There was... Okay. We have Nex. We have Jager. We have Cortex. We have Thanos. Which one should I add? Okay. There's a really long comment that I want to read out loud, because I think it's amazing if you put the effort into putting long comments in the chat. So. Yate. Yate. I don't know how your name is pronounced. Also keep in mind that this is open source. If the project makes it to sandbox, they are already showing a commitment to build a sustainable community. And if they do not make to another CNCF level, they could still have a strong enough community to continue for years and years. Being open source means a group using the software can help maintain it as well. That's a really, really great comment. Yeah. Really, really great comment. Makes complete sense. Yeah. When a project is donated, there's already a certain level of involvement, either by companies and in another interest groups, other entities, and just generally the community of maintaining and keeping this project moving. So that's generally what you will get from sandbox projects already. Really great point. Thank you for parading that in the chat. Okay. So we want to add, I'm just going to add Thanos because it sounds really cool and yeah, that's where we added. Okay. I haven't actually, I don't know. I don't know which projects I have actually used. I don't tell anybody, but yeah. Okay. So open tracing got mentioned a lot of times. So I think we should add it. Now you can disagree in the chat and you can provide other inputs. This is a collaborative effort just to remind you, right? But I'm going to add open tracing, tracing, I can't type while I'm talking. Okay. So we have analysis and observability, awesome. So we have those figured out. Maybe let's make this a bit nicer. How do I make it nicer? So, and let's remove the background or something like that. I don't know. Maybe I'm not making this nicer right now, let's delete this. Okay. So what do we want to get started next? So we have like about 30 minutes of the stream left or however long I feel like a fancy going on, I guess. No, but okay. What do we want to look at next here? Going back to this. Okay. We can also, let's just look up CNCF, CNCF learning roadmap. Now I looked it up before because I was curious on what I would find, but I'm also looking up now so you can see all the stuff that people can find here. So beginner's guide, this is what I'm looking for. Here again, we have to trail map. This is amazing. This is really great.  So again, there are going to be live streams for training and well, specifically how to get started with the, with the certification by Sam next week. So check that out and subscribe to this channel to stay up to date with all those amazing live streams that are coming up now, right? So beginner's guide. This is what we found now, okay? So here again, you can find different explanations and I guess I should have read that before the live stream. Next time I'm going to be better prepared, I swear. Maybe. Right. So we have Kubernetes. We have already that. We have help into app development. And then, okay, this is for example, see here also here sandbox projects listed. So if they listed in an onboarding guide, I think we can use it, right? We can use sandbox projects. What do you think? Maybe comment in the chat, you think we can use it? Should I include telepresence? Let's check it out. Let's check it out. Okay. For Kubernetes and OpenShift microservices. So I don't know if I should include this, yes, no. Any suggestions? Any thoughts? Should I include this? Okay. I believe this hanging here. Should I include telepresence or not since it's given here within the onboarding guide? You can decide that for me. If you want it to be included, I'm going to give it a few seconds. You can provide your thoughts on whether or not I should be including it. Yes, I should be including it, Kuna. Who else is it? Right now, just Kuna is going to make the decision if you not post anything. So I mean, let's see, right? Okay. We're going to leave this hanging. You can vote on this. You want to have this project here included? Yes or no? Telepresence 2 is open source and available to perfume now. Let's just include it. I mean, yes, it can't hurt, right? It can't hurt. It's just, I'm tired of typing now and I feel like I'm not getting far of typing and speaking. This is not what we want. We want this one and we want to have telepresence here. Oh, this is a bit now. I will correct it later on before I post it into the Git repository. You will find all the resources here, okay? So I will post all the resources here. So don't worry right now. Okay. So we're not this far yet. We have analysis and observability. Now what do we want next? Let's go back to our beginners. We have monitoring. Okay. We have open. Well, we didn't include that. Did we include Cortex? Okay. I guess since it's part, these are sandbox projects, right? So I'm probably just graduated. So open metrics, Cortex, should I include one of those? Should I include both? Okay. Somebody commented. I think, I don't know if that's your name or username. I think it's your username. But somebody commented, kind of interesting how most of those projects for analysis use Go as a language and then FluentD is Ruby. Wonder why? Yeah. A lot of projects use Ruby and then Go. Interesting thought. So logging tracing. We have included that. We have open tracing. We have Yeager. Okay. So they broke it down further here. And container registries, storage and databases. We want to use, we want to look at storage and databases, I think, oh, I have never looked at those projects. Okay. Let's include incubator. Okay. Incubate it. Okay. So let's include storage and databases from here onwards. I guess this is then getting more advanced. So I guess you can take different paths. Let's make one of those paths, storage and databases. And the other one, we can make something else, okay? So we're going to include this here. This is sometimes really difficult to navigate, but I guess it's really pretty to use. So storage and databases, if you type correctly, okay. So here we go. Cool. There's more in the chat. Awesome. Okay. People agree I should include. Was it open? No. Which one was it? Telepresence. So we leave telepresence there. Now I need to move over here somehow. Oh, now I'm on the left. This is like, this is fascinating to navigate this tool. Okay. And then what do we add on the right? Let's go back maybe to our CNCF landscape. Okay. We are back here. What else can we include? So you have here different headers that basically summarize the different categories of those projects. So maybe once we have looked at, yeah, once we have looked at app delivery and we have looked at analysis and observability, maybe we want to look at how do we scale traffic? How do we manage the traffic to our application? So maybe want to look at those different projects that are listed here. Now, do you have any thoughts on which one? I only know linkerd, I think, from these ones here and contour, I think I have, I have not used directly. So which ones should I include here? That's the next question. Yeah, you can watch this live stream again. Now, if you're in the chat right now, I would love to hear from you, which ones you think should be included in a, in a learning roadmap. What do you think? I guess I will just go ahead include, let's put here maybe scaling now. What should we call it? Traffic management, traffic. I mean, service mesh would be like one aspect of this, but I guess like a lot of these projects here are ultimately focusing on other parts as well. So maybe there's some, maybe want to call this differently. Maybe call this, yeah, just management, traffic management, traffic. I don't know. I can't think of a better word right now. Traffic management. I don't know. Let's just call it that and just refer to all of those projects here. So I'm, I'm roughly summarizing right now. Maybe that's like a horrible idea. You don't have to know anything to suggest just whatever you feel like looks the prettiest. That's, I mean, no, let's, okay, let's look at those, right? Let's look at these different projects here. We can click on them and then we can hear this is the first candidate. Okay. I'm going to give you now a different, I don't know, different candidates that you can, that we can decide upon. Okay. What are we going to include? Let's do it this way. Okay. It has 7,000 stars on GitHub. That sounds like a lot. Here's the website. So let's look at the website of core DNS DNS and services covering that sounds highly useful to me. Again, it's the first time I'm looking at it. I don't know what to include either, right? So it's past inflexible. That sounds great. Okay. It's used by some people. I'm probably not giving this project justice. This is probably a really amazing project. No, I think we should include this, right? Let's add it. Okay. Let's add it. Sounds great. Let's add it. How was it called again? Core DNS. Okay. Let's add core DNS here. Core DNS. Okay. We're going to look at that. That's past check mark. Okay. So let's look at the next one. You can vote up or down at CD. I think that should be included since that's probably related directly to Q and E. And I haven't looked at this specifically, right? It's, yeah, let's, let's look at this. Right? Yeah. I mean, wow, that's a lot of stars. Right? That should be included. Okay. And I feel probably don't tell anybody. I don't know these projects. I feel like I should know what this actually, I mean, at CD is like the data storage within Q and E just know you're testing my knowledge of Q and E just here. So I think it's pretty important. It sounds to me pretty important. So I think, especially if it has so many stars, let's give it a star. Where can I give it a star? Yeah. Let's give it a star. So always start what you're using or what you get excited helps them. So next, should we look at this? I feel like the bigger listed ones here are more important in this case. Sorry about this little project here. So what is this from? This one also has a lot of stars. No, maybe we can't make the decision solely on stars. Right? What do you think? Yeah. Don't pop, don't, don't test me on these things. I'm not going to, I, we forget whatever happens on the stream. That's basically how it works. Um, okay. Should I, should I be lucky, should we be looking at this one? I guess so. Let's check it out. What is this? High performance opens this universal RPC framework. That sounds also important. Yeah. Don't test me on my knowledge. Should we add this G RPC? G RPC. Okay. I'm going to edit because somebody in the chat said yes. Okay. Somebody else heard a lot about this project. That means we should edit. If you hear a lot about it, that means it's important, I guess, or it did something bad, but I will go with the format positive. Okay. Positive assumptions taken here. Okay. So what else? What else do we want to, and why I, that sounds, I mean, I've heard, I mean, yeah, let's just add all of them. I mean, we can probably exclude later on, right? Okay. And why, and why do I pronounce it right? Why? And contour. Contour. Let's look at it. High performance English controller for Kubernetes. That sounds exciting, I guess. Let's just add them all. Okay. So how, I hope I print a contour. Okay. I want to write everything correctly. So I'm not getting people reach out and be mad later on. No. I, I, I so screwed it up. Contour. Contour. Okay. This is just me really screwing up. Okay. So. And where is another one? Falco. But Falco is going to go later into security. No. We can't, we can't jump ahead, I guess. I mean, this is still, this is still not, this is still not security, right? This is like, this is traffic management, I guess. So we include then, um, and boy, and boy, is that how you write it? Did I write it correct? Okay. And then we include also, we want to include, there was another one, another bigger one. So we have all of these, right? We have all of these. Now we want to include LinkerD, I guess, as well. Now, and then we get into storage and runtime, that I know a little about, and networking, I also know a little about, and we, we are there, we are getting there. Okay. Uh, LinkerD, we will include that. I hope I pronounced it right as well. And LinkerD, like that. Okay. Let's edit. What else? How about Thanos? Okay. Thanos we have included. No? Thanos is here. In analysis, we are, we are basically here. This is our roadmap so far. Okay. This is like the different areas that we're going to be looking at. Um, now I don't want to put specific, like, these are really just like projects, right? And this gets us, I guess, to the question that we had earlier. Let's address the question we had earlier, a lot about 100 days of Kubernetes. Um, because if you, if you're watching this and you might come from one of my social channels, you might have come across 100 days of Kubernetes. And the thing is here in this live stream, we're going to be looking at specifically those projects and how to get started with those projects. So let's assume you're completely new to the CNCF landscape, or you're new, but you are, maybe you're not new, but you want to get started with different projects. Where do you get started? And how do you get started with those projects ultimately? So, uh, this is not going to tell you, like, learn about service mesh, learn about, uh, the, the theory behind X and Y, but more, um, these are the projects that you can be learning about. And this is how you would get started, maybe with those projects. Um, I will publish this map. I will publish this map here on my GitHub repository. So, and then it will share it also on my Twitter channel, Twitter, Twitter, I will share it on my Twitter. So you can also find it there and then you can comment and you can tell me what to change. And then we can shape this further on after the stream. This is just to kick it off. Okay. But I really need your input afterwards. Okay. And your feedback on which projects you think are more important to look at versus others. Now, these are already some really amazing projects and I might have to summary some of them in the streams, but we will get there. Okay. These are like some big categories and we can also probably break them down further, but to get back to the original question, what is the difference between this and learning about Kubernetes or, I mean, if you're learning about Kubernetes, that's the approach from that perspective. If you're learning about the technology such as Kubernetes, you will like to come across different projects such as Helm or Argo or Prometheus and so on already. So if you're learning about containers and Kubernetes, you might come across them already and you will use them as part of your learning journey to understand the technology. Now that would be that something that I would, for example, put the theory of those different technologies. It's what I would put as part of like a learning journey such as 100 days of Kubernetes, which is like focus of what is the learning journey of learning Kubernetes across 100 days. And this is really focused on, okay, how do you get started with those different projects? Again, if you want to get started with Kubernetes and if you're interested in learning about these things and an overview and so on, I highly suggest you to join Siam's stream next week because he's going to walk you through the Kubernetes documentation and show you how to get started with the Kubernetes documentation. So if you are curious about advancing your Kubernetes skills level up, then that's definitely for you. We are going to be looking at what are this beginner resources, started resources available on this different projects. Now I have to, ooh, how do I get to the right side again? Great. So what happens if I reload this? I'm scared to reload it without saving it. Okay. Now I'm back centered more. Anyway, so, um, with these projects, we're going to be looking at what did it begin a resource to start a resource available? Um, what did the resources somebody who's new to it would look at? And what does it look like to spin up your first use case with those projects? That's basically what we're going to do in the next lifestreams. Um, so this is just starting point of us then feeding off of this kind of roadmap. And obviously this will, this will change likely throughout the next lifestreams. So you can still comment and put your thoughts in like, this is really, this is supposed to be interactive because as you can tell, I'm just, I'm just talking to you here. So I love your input, whether through issues or on Twitter and comments. So again, I'm going to be publishing it here. So more questions. It's going to learn Kubernetes or use it in these projects. No, knowing go is a programming language. I wouldn't say it's important. I would say it's useful in some case. Um, since a lot of these projects rely on their backend on go, or you might will have to use some customization in go to use some of these projects. But generally I'm, my programming skills are really bad. Like not, not that advanced, let's say, but me using Kubernetes doesn't or using these platforms effectively and doing a good job. Otherwise I, I hope I'm doing a good job so far. Um, anyway, it doesn't, like, it doesn't prevent me from doing that just because my go skills are not as advanced, let's say. Um, so that's a good question, but I don't think go is important. Maybe other people have other suggestions. You can also contribute to a lot of these projects. If you do not know any programming language yet, right? You can contribute to documentation. You can provide feedback there. There's an amazing talk from KubeCon EU that you should check out. If you're interested in contributing, unlike contributing, if you're not programmer, because you can provide so much input, like so much input. If you're not a programmer and you're looking at us projects, because you will approach it from a completely different perspective than a programmer. And a lot of times actually, oh, nice. Kubernetes dot def. What is that? I get so easily distracted. Well, come to the here. Let's check that out. This is a cool. See, Kubernetes dot def. If you're interested in contributing, thank you for sharing. Awesome. So you can, I mean, there are different ways on how you can get involved. And a lot of times not filing up here, but helping to replicate issues and solve bugs and so on is a lot or solve issues for people and help other people get on board and on this project is a lot more valuable for maintainers because then they can focus on other things. Then filing PRs and, yeah, and getting started in that way of contributing. So it really depends, but you don't have to be a super developer programmer to contribute. That's, that's basically my, my thoughts on that subject. Um, awesome. You attended the talk. Great. I hope you liked it. Cool. So, um, we are nearly doing this like for an hour now. Oh, I'm talking a lot. Uh, I hope you're not tired of me talking yet. Uh, okay. So this is a bit annoying. Let's, let's try to get back to the, how do I do that? Okay. Oh, cool. It changed somehow. I made a change. Okay. So we want to get started also with storage. Now they are obviously different opinions of whether you should use storage in Kubernetes. Um, if you've looked at Kubernetes yet, it's, it blows up really easily. It's just, and then you have to recreate everything, but, uh, you can use a storage, right? Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. You know, code contributions at KubeCon. Yeah. There are lots of, lots of different ways that you can get them up, such as watching this live stream and helping me figure this stuff out, right? That's also really valuable contribution that I highly value personally. Um, and other community members for sure. Since contributing in the chat also takes a lot, right? It's not, it's not that straightforward, um, to provide your thoughts in the chat. And there's really nothing wrong you could say in the chat or, right, just be respectful and, uh, provide your input and your feedback. So storage, that's the last thing we're going to look at. And I think then we're good for now. Let's look at this, like these areas, right? Again, I haven't looked at those projects. I know about Rook. It's actually here. It's on my bottle. If you can see it, the logo, but that's, that's it. So we want to look at different storage solutions or these, this area, let's say, off the roadmap, let's look at this area. And then later on, I guess, oh, we also add security promise. We look at security. So let's look at, let's just include work first and move on to security. And then we can add other projects here because I don't want to spend too much time looking at the other projects right now, but we're going to add Rook just because I feel like, why is this so tiny now? Oh, okay. This is really tiny now. What have I done? Okay. This is reset. Okay. This might make it better. Okay. And then we want to move on to security. Now, in both cases, we will need security, right? In either case, we need, we need to make sure that what we're doing is actually secure and not, not secure. I don't know. Anyway, so this is like the, the time of the day where something I'm saying miss doesn't necessarily make sense. Anyway, so security, security, we want to look at that as well. So I might be wrong, but shouldn't at CDB storage and database category as it works as a database in, yeah, that's a good point. It was just up there with like the other solutions here. So that's why I put it there. Let's put it down here and delete this part, I guess. So let's put it down there at CDB. That's a good point. See, you providing input is really helpful. I just, I guess I just put it there, but I, yeah, I guess. Where was it? Where was it CDB here? Yeah, it was kind of, I mean, but then it's a bit vague, right? Like why is it there? If it's, I'm not sure. Maybe somebody has some thoughts on why it's here instead of within, like, um, database kind of related solutions or storage or so on. Anyway, let's look at security and compliance. Let's check out those different projects. Open policy agent. That sounds important. I don't know what it is yet, but it sounds important. So we might want to add that. Let's add it, right? Uh, maybe you have, have you looked at that before? Open policy agent. No, like I might be wrong too. I might be as wrong as everybody here. How do we know we are right? Maybe everybody's consistently wrong and we never know that we are right, right? Like somebody in the chat comment might be wrong, might be right. Who knows, right? I don't know why I feel like everything chains off Kubernetes, but projects only exist because of it. That's a good question. I think we will answer the question for the next live streams. Like what projects only exist because of Kubernetes? I mean, I guess a lot of these projects only exist because of Kubernetes or like to enhance Kubernetes in various ways. So when we look at those different projects, we will look at, can you use it without Kubernetes? Or is it like specific to you using Kubernetes in the first place? So that's definitely one of those areas. Did the CNCF exist before Kubernetes? No, I, okay. No, you're testing me here. So, um, I don't want to say anything wrong because I might be completely wrong here. But so basically Kubernetes comes from another project within Google. That was called, I don't know how it was called. Um, and I forgot the name. So, um, and then it got basically the CNCF formed and Kubernetes got donated. Bork. Thank you, Dan. He knows it. Um, so it, so that was Bork at Google and that is, is it still there? I wonder. Anyway, so basically there, that's what Kubernetes comes from. And then it, the CNCF formed. And, um, I think in response to it, get, I wonder right now if, if Kubernetes got, came first and then the CNCF formed to facilitate it, or I think it was the other rounds we had then CNCF was formed and then Kubernetes was given to the CNCF, but I might be wrong here. We can talk about this next time as well. Um, there might be there probably way better videos in this one. Yeah. So we had, okay. So we agree here in the chat now that we had, uh, we had Kubernetes come from Bork from Google, and this is a while ago since I looked into it. And then the CNCF was like, Hey, there's this amazing space. It's going to form around this and we're going to need something like this anyway, because everything is moving to containers. So we're going to start this cool project and no, we're going to form the CNCF and then they got Kubernetes and Kubernetes was the first one that graduated from the CNCF. And then they, well, other projects got donated as well. And then basically this onboarding path formed around it of getting from sandbox into graduation. Oh, it was, okay. It was announced alongside Kubernetes 1.0 and open source container cluster manager, which was contributed to the Linux foundation by Google as a seed technology. Chat knows. So thank you. Uh, next time I will be more prepared. So we are looking at that security. Now I have to include, I could be mean and not include some project. Now we are going to include all those projects. I think. Okay. The update, it's the first time I hear about this. I don't know what this is. Is this something that should be included the update framework? I don't know what it is. It's, I have never heard anybody talk about it. Maybe it's something used with in different projects. I don't know. Okay. Um, cool. So Falco, we should include Falco, I believe. Should we include Falco vote in the chat? No, I'm going to include Falco. I'm just kidding. Um, let's include Falco here as well. Right. Cool. So security, there are not many. I would have thought, see, like when you look at this map at the beginning, you come to it with some assumptions. I mean, I'm curious what assumptions you have before looking at it or how you felt the first time that you looked at this. Um, but I would have thought there are more security and compliance related tools than these. Maybe I'm wrong. Um, oh, you, we need to just turn seven years old on June 6th. That's a nice fact. Thank you for sharing. That's really cool. Okay. Notary, I've heard about that one. We should include that. We should look at that, right? Okay. Let's include that as well. So notary. Awesome. Okay. So this is our roadmap this far, what we're going to be looking at. Now, again, I'm going to post this so you can contribute. You can provide your thoughts and maybe some of the other projects that you want to be looking at, because again, we didn't, we want to probably eventually look at key management. There are two incubating projects. Let's look at key management as well. Let's add those two and then we edit these. I think we're pretty good. I mean, later we might want to look also at K3S. Um, if there are any other projects that have not listed yet, you might want to reach out. Okay. So Spiff, oh, the Spiff project. Key management doesn't seem to be too popular, huh? There are only like a few hundred stars on each of them. Um, okay. Spiff and Spire. Spiffer and Spire. Okay. I have to think about how we write that. Let's include this as well as last thing kind of, right? Key management, management. Oh, you have to write. Okay. Cool. Okay. So Spiff and Spire will be include. That sounds so weird when you say it. Um, I hope I inspire. Let's look it up. Okay. Spire. Okay. Cool. Spire. So we are going to be looking at these as well as part of security, I guess afterwards. So this is our roadmap this far, what we've analyzed now here. So, um, I think this is a really good starting point. I'm going to be posting all of, I'm going to be including all of the resources that I've used here in to, to make this roadmap happen. Let's say, um, so if you find anything that's, that's particularly interesting to you and or any, any project that we have not looked at from this roadmap, then please do reach out, get in touch, just drop me a message or join the future chats and provide input there. Now I'm not sure if there's something I've missed right now in the chat. Um, maybe there's something I missed. Okay. Open should be included. No, uh, was that what the message was about? Let's see. Um, I think I've addressed pretty much most of in the chat. Let's see. Uh, if there's nothing, if there's something I haven't addressed it, now it's the time to post it. If if any questions, any thoughts, now is the time for you to post it. Is this roadmap sufficient for a hundred days off code? So this is also great. Okay. This is now we spin off from the, from this topic here a bit slightly. So, but this is interesting. So they are different projects called we have 100, well, 100 days of Kubernetes, one hundred days, days off code. This is a project that has nothing to do directly with the CNCF or Kubernetes, then we have a hundred days off cloud, which is also independent project for you to get onboarded in the cloud ecosystem. And I started 100 days off Kubernetes. Oh, that should actually, that's 100 days of Kubernetes. Now you have to, oh, today I'm, I'm getting tired, huh? So 100 days of Kubernetes. So now I figured it out. Okay. So these are all independent projects that kind of rely on the same principle of you get started with something for 100 days and you aim to learn it within 100 days and advance in that area of 100 days. Now, as you can see here, this is all really Kubernetes specific. Now this is for 100 days off Kubernetes. Now in 100 days for this live stream, we're going to be focusing on getting started with these different projects. What is the onboarding experience like? What are the starter resources that are available like? And then basically how do you start it the quickest way? So that's basically the idea. If you want to communicate with the team, yeah, awesome. Dan just dropped in the channel that there's also, we have a GitHub repository where we manage those streams. So if you have any thoughts, any feedback, any suggestions or so on, then you can also drop that there as well. Yeah, so that's basically the difference. And with that, I think this was really, this was a great live stream. Let me just change to my video only. So thank you so much for joining. This was really amazing. I'm going to share all of these resources, follow me on Twitter and subscribe here to this channel for future live streams. As mentioned, we will have tomorrow, we have Kat of Kat's classroom. I think it's called, sorry. And she's going to interview different maintainers from the scene, from those projects from within the Lysian Sea of Landscape. So they are going to provide her with a true one-on-one onboarding theoretical background of what is this project? Why would you use it? How would you use it? Now, next week, we're also going to have Sam, who's going to provide you with a live stream on how you get started with Kubernetes, specifically Kubernetes documentation and prepare for your exams. So subscribe here on Twitch to stay up to date and be notified about all those cool live streams and future live streams and every live stream in between that you can see in the trailer. And I'm going to post a roadmap and other resources as well as to get a repository of those resources on my Twitter in a bit. So stay tuned for that. If there's nothing else in the chat, I'm going to close this stream now. Thank you so much for joining.