What's up everyone? Waiting for NautsGo to join this man scaping talk. He's really a master of pyjazzling. I don't know if you guys are familiar with pyjazzling, you might want to Google it. That's really NautsGo's main talent is the pyjazzle. It's got to be past your bedtime, H&L. Oh man. Oh man. I think it's past NautsGo's too. How's everyone doing? I'm in my undies too. I almost always am.  You know. That's why I keep it up here. Keep it up in this area. This region. He always ignores them. Huh. That's why I got to keep doing them.  What's up Curbside? How you doing dude? Yeah. The flannel backdrop. Yeah. I haven't even gotten the new podcast room up.  So hopefully it'll be up soon. I don't know. Oh Lazy. Where is he? There he is. There you are. There you are. Technical difficulties. Testical difficulties over there? Something online. I actually thought when you first started the video I was like what if we did a whole live like this? Like that? That's how you were. Like it was like the very top of your head and like two eyes popping out. I could do it like this.  I don't know. Yeah. I try to keep. It's hard too because I can't really like wear my glasses and focus on something this close. Yeah. I can't either. But it makes it hard to like read comments. Yeah. I try to wear glasses to read the comments because that's what they're for but it doesn't really help much anymore. No. It just fucks me up. I can't like see far and super close at the same time. Yeah. I don't know what it is. So and then yeah I tried to join the live but I think Matt wanted to get his vajazzling talk out of the way. I did. I did. I wanted to let them know about your hot new hobby. Without he wanted that as a monologue where I didn't have any chance to eject or change the subject. So that was all that was all it was either technical difficulties or intentional on Matt's part. I don't know what it was. But yeah. No I mean I was just telling about your new hobby that where you put your gems and you just get nice adhesive and stick it real hard and take pictures.  I mean the people that can make a living doing that you know. I mean I've got to make a living somehow. You know I would you know I mean they probably played they probably paid Marky Mark a lot to pose on those Calvin Klein's right. Yeah. I would think so. You know. You would imagine so. Yeah he's not packing heat like I am though. That's for sure. No I mean I think there was an unripe avocado involved or something like that. So it's all that's for artistic pressure of color. That's for artistic impressions. All right so what do we want to cover today where you want to start. Well we thought about we thought about putting out like a few different things people were requesting certain stuff so we'll pay attention to comments if we can and we'll take questions and then people were asking about like because it's it's like a big name like what what some of the super dog which is I'm kind of tied into story is about and then what some of the Kush story is about. Yeah. And it's like not to be we probably won't get like massively in depth and some kind of step by step because there's a lot of I don't know what would you. A lot of a lot of toes to step on a lot of people with money tied to their story about it. Yeah. But so so there's there's some legends and there's competing tales and there's stories that you kind of have to choose who to believe again. Yeah. It's it's one of the more complicated ones and but we can talk about like how it impacted California which is kind of really where it got famous. Yeah. You know and you know Kush I wow that's an interesting one. I didn't know Chris. Yeah. He has been he's been missing for a super long time is in his family still pays like there's like hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah. I mean it's it's one of those it's one of those things that someone asked weeks ago to do some missing person stories or whatever and it's like yeah there's people have families and friends and loved ones and stuff and all that. So yeah it's probably not the most like the coolest thing to chat about. Yeah. The sensitive nature of that. Yeah. Kids and stuff left behind. Well no I mean it's just more like you know people you know it's like someone goes missing you got friends and family that love you. Yeah yeah for sure. And they don't have any and the reason why there's a huge reward is they don't have closure. Yeah. Yeah it's it's pretty horrible. You know and so that kind of stuff that kind of stuff happens up here. Yeah. You know it's isolated and so yeah I don't know. But did you catch the obsolete posting pictures of HLV infected seeds. You know I didn't but you know I was actually strangely enough that we could talk about that for a second because it was probably two nights ago or something I had a pretty long chat with CSI. Yeah. And we were talking about a bunch of different things and one of the things that it's interesting is you know as you know he's got a couple of plants that have gutting. Yeah. Right. That are just really old and irreplaceable. Yeah. And so he keeps them but he keeps them in a totally separate spot and all that. Yeah yeah. Right. Well anyway one of them is one of them is Callio. Yeah. Right.  Yeah. Past not only does it stay alive in plants but it passes on to a certain percentage of seed. Yeah. Right. The number is from the hops people is 8% of seeds it can be passed to but that doesn't necessarily what people don't understand is that doesn't necessarily mean that 8% of your seeds that you pop are going to absolutely show it. I mean that it gives it 8% chance and it could be 8% of the seed you didn't pop that you had. You know. Oh yeah. I mean chances is like so over a huge number of seeds you know all things being equal your seeds somewhere between like 50-50 male female or 60-40 right over over like a large lot like on a big average but I mean I've popped like 26 seeds two packs of like mangoes haze and got three girls. Yeah. Yeah. You know. I've got the same same stuff where you get like zero females all males. Yeah. Or vice versa you know the law of averages on like a very small amount is not that great but I will say the point before I get too distracted is he grew out some of those hybrids. Yeah. And he didn't see any he didn't he didn't find any evidence of it yet. Yes. That's correct. So I don't know. I don't know that that's I don't want to say true but I don't know how proven that is. Yeah. I don't know how proven that that 8% is and is that just hops is it not necessarily cannabis which is a hops you know relation is not enough science on it yet on as it relates to just cannabis. Yeah. No one no one looks cool smoking their vape so I try to hide it sometimes. Sorry guys. Yeah. No. No smoking. It is it is interesting because you know there's an aspect that we him and I were also chatting about which is like there was an era where you didn't really worry about disease or bugs too much. Yeah. Powering mildew was unheard of there was no dotting there was anything like that and there was this thing where most people either did their own clothes. Yeah.  Yeah. Right. And so a lot of times diseases or issues or something like that were fairly localized and didn't really you never really heard about it to be honest. And then in like the 215 era when people when lots of clubs started selling racks of cuttings for like for profit. Yeah. A lot of people stopped running their own veggies stopped the cake taking care of their own mother stock and their own clones and everything like that. Yeah.  Yeah. For my next rip from you know my friend at the shop. Yeah. And I smart card. Yeah. Yeah. And you know and certain companies you know and so that so in a way it's like those diseases made their way to like certain like nurseries and clearing houses that were supplying a lot of clubs. Yeah.  Yeah. And so then it kind of became this thing where now you see it on IG and all this there's advertisements for Byroy tests like crazy. Yeah. People are taking all kinds of precautions we've had buddies that it came in. And ripped through their rooms. Oh yeah. There seems to be different different strengths and different ones. Most people don't understand what a Byroid even is. I think we've all everyone in our crew has at least seen one dud over time to be able to experience what that was.  Yeah. But I mean there was even a thing where I was listening to a different and an excerpt from a different podcast and they were interviewing someone who scientifically studied it right. And they were talking about the different methods because it's a it's not even a virus. It's a Byroid. It's like little bits of RNA or whatever. Yeah. And it's like for the most part it's like it's totally fine and 99% isopropyl. Yeah. It's it doesn't kill it. Yeah. You know we've been I some a couple of good friends of ours. They had some tech at their nurseries where they had like the the propane canister and the torch that attaches to it. Yeah.  Yeah.     And so and so then there's an aspect where it's like basically what they found is that like you know 10 or 15% bleach for 10 minutes does kill it. Really? Yeah.  That doesn't kill it. Alcohol doesn't kill it. Fire doesn't kill it. There's something about the chemical composition of of bleach. I wonder if the vine oxide works. There's this other stuff. Yeah. There's a few other things that that cause that that kill it but it that some of those things are like really harsh on tools. Yeah. Or you you know so but then the interesting thing about bleach is if you buy like store bleach yeah our buddies skunk just said vikrons. If you buy if you buy like clothing bleach like sodium hypochloride that stuff only stays good once you mix it for like I don't know five to eight hours. Yeah.  Yeah. I remember Jungle Boys Jungle Boys was saying they were using I don't want to get it wrong but it was something like Sanidate or Oxidate. Yeah.   I mean Sterilance. Sterilance are tough. Yeah.  Yeah. Get bleach for pools. Oh.  But now people I mean I go I go to the store and I buy you know like a hundred pack of of blades. Yeah. And I just I just add to you know. Yeah. Every plant gets a new every plant gets a new blade. Yeah. It's a good habit to make.  I tried with the Sanidate and Oxidate on the four way and Trinity cut because both of those have the HLV and not no dice. And not so. Yes. I'm going to wish you a happy pride. Indeed. Happy pride. All right. That right there before I lose it because it'll go off my screen every plant gets its own rooting hormone. Yeah. Taking all the precautions to actually like separate and not cross contaminate. It's been in the S. Yeah it is.  And then on top of that then you're then you got to use Rockwell or you got to use the earth plugs or something like an easy cloner. Yeah. It's like that's everywhere. Yeah. That's it. You're done at that. Yeah. That's like making out with people with the flu. Yeah. You know and you know and and so it's hard because there's like real science and bro science. Yes. And for a long time we only had bro science because real science couldn't touch wheat. I can't tell you how long I have heard that powdery mildew passes to seedlings like that's bro science. It's been bro science for a long time. So when I first heard about the HLV thing I was very skeptical. You know because I'd seen a lot of people breathe with duds over the years and never seen the duds pop up in C form but apparently the hops people do say it happens. So. Yeah. And I mean that obviously still has to be checked and proven over time and that's how science is. Right. It's the best information you have and you know we'll see. I don't know where that originates from. Yeah. I know. Stupidity I think. You know. That powdery mildew one. And well you know it people to have to understand the life cycle of things and like a viroid isn't even a virus. It's like little bits of RNA. Yeah.  I don't even know what trans laminar means and I probably should but I think that sounds correct. So trans laminar there's two things right. There's vascular where it's moving through your vascular system. Yeah. And then there's trans laminar which is essentially like the leaf surface. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. So for instance like to give you an example if you could use a certain kind of poison. Yeah. And it would be a contact killer or maybe it would form a relationship and be trans laminar and go on the leaf. Okay. And not systemic. That could be systemic though. It could. They could have systemic trans laminar. And you could have systemic vascular. I know I know systemic vascular but I never heard I wouldn't think systemic would be just leaf touching but I guess that makes sense. Yeah. You know. Well I mean it just depends. Humans have figured out all kinds of different shit. Yeah. You know. But he's right in the sense that PM is you know it's like PM the hardest thing is to break its life cycle. Yeah. You know. And that's what people don't do. Yeah. You know they mostly break its life cycle but then it like you know I mean when you live in Mendo and you're surrounded by vineyards and everything else and everybody grows you know we got a crash course 20 years ago in PM. Yeah.  It's that avid is a avid is we used to call avid the death. Avid is a trans laminar. Yeah. Systemic or whatever. And you know 20 25 years ago some of that. Is it systemic? Yeah. Because I last I do remember that spider mites are not susceptible to things that are systemic because of how deep they go into the leaf. No they're susceptible. I mean the issue the issue becomes really with spider mites specifically is that 20 25 30 years ago there was there's a bunch of poisons for spider mites that are you know all from pretty natural to pretty toxic that worked really well and you know people overused these toxins over and over and over again it would dip their clones in it every time and we just yeah they were trying to take precautions but what they bred was super mites. Yeah I was pretty sure avid wasn't systemic. Yeah it's one of the ones that's not just because it's not it's not systemic doesn't work necessarily with spider mites you don't need systemic so they don't go that far. There's vascular systemic and there's trans laminar right and so like when you think about it like if something's a contact killer it means that the bug has to come into contact to kill it. Yeah. Right if there's something that's trans laminar and like and persists within the leaf for a period of time it'll kill the bug for that length of time that it persists. But that's not necessarily systemic. If it stays in the plant that's not a definition of systemic. Well I mean it's also one of those things though that it's systemic in the sense that your plant will test positive for it for a long time. Yeah yeah but I think there's something specific about it not being systemic like what it what it actually is avid. Yeah I mean someone emicloropid which is the people used for root aphids or whatever that stuff you can test like that stuff will test dirty one to two years later.  So that's kind of maybe I mean maybe I'm getting it wrong when I consider to be systemic. Yeah is that if you apply it and then weeks or months later you can still test for it. Yeah it's around. It's in the plant system somehow whether that's the leaf system or the the you know and maybe we can look it up and maybe I'm totally fucked. Yeah I don't know. It's always possible but that's kind of how I that's kind of how I viewed things is like things that persist. Yeah I don't I have no clue to be honest with you. I just remember that the old saying that systemic stuff doesn't work on mites because they don't go deep enough into the leaf. Yeah someone just asked if you spray avid and veg it will absolutely it will absolutely persist for some time. Yeah and there used to be 90 days is right. I should say I should say this thing there used to be this thing where not to call anybody out or anything like that but there was a lot of people that supplied clubs that knew exactly how many weeks you had to go not spraying it to test totally clean at the club.  And then in order to in order to get around that. Yeah the legal testing it went from PPM to PPB. Oh yeah that's right from parts per million to parts per billion and once it went to parts per billion it fucked every all those people's math and all the rates they were using it and everybody was hiding using it and getting away with it you know and so now what's happened is is that a lot of these mites have survived decades of people spraying them with all kinds of funky shit. Yeah yeah and so they're a lot they're a lot stronger and they're a lot more resistant in California than your average might would be in the wild.   I remember back in the day the big mix and my roll of crutes I shouldn't even admit this but it was a long time ago before before you know a lot of the information was available even though you could smell it you could smell the toxicity but it was a 5 ton 27 and spectrocyte immunox mix for some reason seemed to just knock PM out but it would also murder your fucking plants you know yeah immunox is kind of like a derivative it's like another brand name for eagle 20 yeah you know and yeah the eagle 20 gets sprayed for grapes avid a lot of these things are designed for ornamentals to yeah yep you know you know points that like the like the fucking PGR bullshit yeah right where everybody you know for a while where if you were super unethical and you wanted to get two or three pounds of light and you didn't care about quality you would PGR your weed and it was it had it had a bunch of names right phospholote or oh yeah you know there was there was a number of companies that would all hide what it actually was and it's the same shit that makes like when you walk into a grocery store around Christmas and all the poinsettias of the same fucking height to the inch yeah that's because they got treated for the PGR yeah I mean I think I think the term PGR has been demonized just like GMO or anything like that where they're sure I mean they're a great PGRs and I see people saying fuck PGS it's you don't even know what you're talking about because there are actually PGRs that we all use that are decent I will say that a lot of the companies would hide the the the fucking what was on the label oh for sure right and then eventually they got caught on do and they all got pulled off the shelf or whatever and sunlight supply came out with one that they call doctor nodes and it was fully vetted through all the all the various agencies right yeah so I my buddy had a shop and they got all these samples and one of the samples was this bottle of doctor nodes right and I'm looking at it and it was a bottle and it came in its own plastic sheath that you kind of like almost like a medicine thing that you had to rip open and do that right yeah and one of its warnings was pregnant women should not touch the bottle right that's safe though that's pretty heavy but like the same on the same tip a natural PGR is kelp yeah you apply too strong a kelp your plan to do some weird shit so you're right in the sense that it's just a term that exists yeah it's but what most what most people are thinking of when they think of PGRs and weed is like you know exactly like possible load and like the name is this long and it's methyl ethyl and it has a bunch of parentheses and hyphens and nil yeah yeah it's it's it's all it's all kinds of bad shit pack low you know I think the other pack low pack pack a little butanol num terrible yeah and in addition to in addition to making your weed super dense it fucked with your crystal content and made your weed be great yeah definitely and there's a lot of companies and this is even fucked up even if you weren't evil and use the shit sorry if you used it and I just called the evil but they didn't put it on the label and lots of things and then there's other companies that would put it into like blood blasters and things like that and they would just put small amounts for that extra oomph yep yeah it's all part of that fucking nutrient game which yeah I mean after making the spray and and learning about different nutrients well how they're sold how you get regulated how you get you know Omri listed all that stuff it's just like to me like it was like learning about the vitamin like like what do they call it like when you go to those muscle stores or whatever you can buy they'll their supplements supplements it's like I'm sorry I have to I have to interject to yeah you know someone's couples couple people said gravity and shit like that which is definitely one of the things and then someone was like yes it was it's illegal to not have everything on the label yes and you'll be shocked to know that people making products for cannabis people were willing to do something illegal and that not all of them had the highest of ethical standards yeah but they got that purple max though I mean that gravity shit or whatever I had I had a friend who literally was like an early proponent of you know you'd probably call living soil today yeah was super anal about inputs and all this different stuff and so he comes in and he buys some of that and all it says on the label is kelp yeah but it had the full Paclo in sure and so he goes out there and he makes a whole Rezzi and he waters all his beds and he's he'd had those beds for like five six years and had been developing them every year and then he went and sprayed him with Paclo because it wasn't on the it wasn't on the label he thought it was and nobody knew to tell him yeah you know so yeah that some of that stuff was insidious they were trying to sell you a product that you'd buy again yeah yeah I mean and it's just like I look at it like drug dealers who press their pills and like you know double the strength that there's an axe of course people are going to go back to that fucking dude if they want to get all super fucked up and die so I mean there was even there's even pesticides that have gotten caught right that have gotten pulled from the shelves in California because they listed you know clove oil and this and that whatever to kill bugs and then they test it and it's got Abbot it's got Abbot actin in there yeah yeah it's got true it's got low amounts of something that really works yeah you know and then they just figure out as someone actually going to analyze my secret sauce probably actually people do you know eventually people do I mean there was a there's been times where like weights and measures has come into grow stores yeah I bet and by law you know if it says it's 40 ounces it better be 40 ounces yeah it says it's X amount of pounds it better be that yeah and they'll pull all their shit off the shelves oh yeah because it doesn't weigh right yeah I think people are asking about power so I know that's a ortho salicylic or monosalicylic acid it's it's it's a it's a silica basically what it is is it's silica in a form that's a lot more absorbable for the plant yeah there's a lot of shit there's a lot of silica out there that is not that easily plant absorbable yeah it's not available for cannabis unless you reuse your soil for you yeah and so and so as a result there's a number of cutting edge has one power C is one there's a bunch of them that put it basically in a different in a different suspension yeah lack of a better way to put it that makes it that makes silica acid that makes it a little bit easier for the roots and the plant to actually uptake yeah that's one of the few products like that that I really actually visually can see change within 24 hours of using it I was a big fan of it it's expensive as fuck but yeah people are talking about and there's enzyme products not longer right now to enzyme enzyme products are I use them a bunch actually there's nukem and Dr. Zimes and all these and they're all basically this this their enzymes that fuck with the the eco-skeleton of the point of the bug and their citric acid in there yeah right and they're really gentle and a lot of more organic and they test queen and they absolutely annihilate powdery mildew and they do a pretty good job killing mites to yeah I'm still I'm still a big proponent now because of you of the what's that shit called the micro sulfur micronized sulfur micronized sulfur yeah yeah that's a truth I mean micronized sulfur if you don't use oils yeah and you spray micronized sulfur I learned that way yeah you'll never you'll never have russet mites or PM in your veg ever yeah it's beautiful except when I use them both together in the same bottle like a absolute fool and every plant that I had and well yeah they'll burn hairs though that's why I said in veg yeah yeah you know you'll definitely sulfur is a really distinctive aroma and you definitely don't want to be using sulfur for any reason much past the first week of yeah once you start saying to me it's it's not a good idea but in in veg when it's just all sticks and stems you know and leaves it's organic it's safe it's you know yeah it it works really well I totally got away from oils simply because I like sulfur in the rotation as a safety measure in the veg and plants tend to like it a lot and I don't so I don't use oils at all yeah because I got help you if you got russets or something like that you know it'll it'll annihilate those yeah I think it's safe to use indoor but I don't like put on mask when I spray you so what the fuck do I know it is safe to use indoor but I put you I would put on masks you know yeah even smart people put on mask there's a lot of stuff quote-unquote that's safe that I might only put on like a like a snowboarding shell or something to spray but I have a full face mask with a visor and the whole bit right yeah because it might be safe for your plants but that doesn't mean your lungs want it yeah no I don't want to breathe in wettable so I don't want to breathe in anything like on that level you know so I always wear a mat I don't want in my eyes either yeah it's probably not good it's probably why I'm fucking blind to be honest with you yeah I mean you know it it I just I you know it's that I always do that no as I got older yes yeah I've gotten older I've tried to be more I have a real nice I don't know it's a two or three hundred dollar full face mask or whatnot and even for the most basic stuff I put it on someone said they started using sulfur because that guy who said sulfur is how to get our gaster I mean it'll definitely make your weed smell and taste like a tire fire yeah I mean if you use it wrong yeah if you feed it to the roots it does you know increase terpenes whatever it has it's not going to change somebody said yeah nukem nukem and sulfur or nukem and Dr. Zimes and sulfur or whatever you can use them back to back there's not oil in there so you could use it I've done it a bunch it's completely safe the only thing something happens when you combine oil and sulfur it changes the pH on the plant and it burns them to shit yeah it murders them I've so you sulfur is sulfur is very very very safe as long as it makes it with oil I never usually do lines of pure or wait I should say if it's over 90 degrees sulfur can really hurt your plants yeah for sure so don't if you know we meet our buddy and I we one of the fires in 2019 I think it was 2018 maybe we had sprayed sulfur the night before and then the next day one of the biggest fires in California history started a couple hills over from us and the first thing it did was burn out a bunch of power poles right so it was 108 degrees and the lighting went out but so did the air conditioning and all the fans and everything we had because the power poles bent and fell yeah and it got real hot and we lost a bunch of moms to sulfur yeah from the day before that's I mean there was a lot of things that sucked about that fire but yeah I mean we didn't have power at that spot for almost two weeks you know and it was June and you have a debt and I mean there was problem there was issues you know yeah so but yeah I mean people trying to read and talk or whatever but I didn't even think we actually bullshitted for a totally different direction yeah yeah don't get don't get sulfur on your lights you know but yeah sulfur sulfur works better than anything I've ever seen against russet mites yeah it absolutely annihilates them and it annihilates powdery mildew yeah I never had russet mites in my life so I should knock on wood somewhere but powdery mildew you know it's even a problem in Bakersfield where it's super dry and I mean do you know that do you know that they consider russet mites areoplankton no that's weird you ever heard that word area no no so area so obviously plankton in the ocean yeah they just get carried around by the currents yeah right russets are so small they can get just carried by wind currents for long distances yeah they're that's why they called them areoplankton because it's like living things that are just getting carried along by current in this case when current so you could have a neighbor a couple hills over and the wind could be going the wrong way and they could definitely start blowing off their plants and right up the hill and right up into your ship yeah and that's how a lot of people got them in in Mendo actually was they spread neighbor to neighbor farm to farm you'd be you'd be downwind from someone and about July August their garden would fuck you yeah and so you could take all the precautions in the world about quarantine and bringing in clean stuff and not allowing pests in you know and then they came in on the wind ain't that a bitch so somebody just said spin a sad I'm sure there's there's I'm sure there is spin a sad is a cool story actually I don't know if you've ever heard it but spin a sad is like a is basically a bug killing fungus yeah right and they discovered it in the Caribbean right there was an old rum mill and they went into this big old factory you know rum factory and they noticed there was no bugs yeah all of them there was like zero no spiders no bugs of any kinds they took soil samples and they found spin a sad A&D yeah and that's what that's what when you buy spin a sad that's what that's what it comes from it comes from them discovering this thing right now but the reason why you shouldn't fucking use it is that it is really it is terrible first bees yeah it is one of the most toxic things for bees so it's safe for you and it's safe for people and animals and all that type of stuff but it'll take out a whole beehive that sucks so it's not it's not you know I mean I guess if you were indoor you could safely use it on your plants yeah and you really wouldn't have too much risk or be or you know being asked all about it but yeah if you're going to spray it on a bunch of your your depths or your outdoors or something like that you might kill the natural bees all in your area and they have their own they have they have enough struggles going on right now bee populations with a lot of things that are fucking with them so yeah I would definitely I could never in in good conscience recommend somebody use it in their depth or their outside yeah you know if you want to hear some shit on OG when we can get to that sucker we're there I mean I don't know we just what we just took it in we just took it in that direction but you know there's a bunch of people listening so if if we talked about certain things and and why not to use them that's cool too yeah and that's the reason when people say Oklahoma or California there's testing for it it's not because it's harmful to humans it's because bees pollinate half of our food sources yeah and so we really really don't want them to die yeah and they are dying at a rapid rate and they're dying in a rapid rate from a bunch of different issues and from a bunch of exposure to toxins and pesticides and herbicides and other and other stresses or whatever and literally there's an immense amount of stuff that you eat that wouldn't get pollinated if it wasn't for bees yeah so spraying a shit ton of bee killer you know yeah it's a little rough so all right so we can we can talk we can talk about Kush this already just I just totally changed my mind and don't want to talk about it at all from oh my god I know but yeah but yeah but I mean it there could be there could be now that we've been chatting about it for a while yeah you know not right now but like our experiences in the future or people want to know about pesticide or or tech or how to beat certain things or what works or what doesn't living up here surrounded by growers I mean I've kind of seen about just about everything tried yeah and you start to poke around in what works and what doesn't what what are the downsides to this thing yeah because most things have downsides you know so you got to pick which ones you're okay with yeah you know definitely but people want to hear about OG yeah like a lot of things or like a lot of famous stories it's not mine or math story no I have nothing to do with OG by any means you know but we you know what we thought like so there's there's like the the most mysterious part about it is the is the Florida history right it starts getting a little bit more definitive and understood once it got to California yeah yeah right so what we thought is like obviously this is like I mean there's been whole shows where people confidently talk about the origins of OG and this and that and everything else and there's a bunch of stories because it's so famous various people trying to like claim yes right there's somebody in Hawaii Hawaii who says his dad did it you know that's my favorite there's no my favorite was was was the underground bunker Frank Giga story that Frank Giga said is not true that was my personal favorite so there's there's there's the like there's a story that it's Neville work that got sent to Hawaii yeah and made his way to Florida from there never did have apparently many backups everywhere yeah we don't know that there's a you know there's a story like he just said that you know Frank is a guy that had a bunch of basically undergrounds and warehouses and big grows in the southwest you know United States Arizona Arizona and New Mexico ish and all that and there's rumor that it came from there it certainly seems guaranteed to have come from Florida people coming out this way me and fatty did meet old Dave Richards he was there when I met that guy and he was still he had a circle around telling the tales of OG and how he fucking made it I mean I I've met I've met Dave Richards his character did you meet him yeah I met him he's he smokes black and milds on one of those fucking things yeah yeah I liked him in person like there's not even a light like he's a funny dude like he's he's personable yeah he's personable it's hard not to like him but when I realized how much he was lying to me I was like okay come on dude like it was so easy to snap he's personable and so there's a there's an aspect where marks castle yes that's another claim that's right anyway there's basically what it boils down to is that Kush became one of those things that ended up being so famous and made so many people money that there's a lot of people invested in trying to be like you should give me rep because my crew or my family or my whatever my friends are the ones that brought this to the world yes and so people come out of the woodwork you know I mean and I'm not trying to call individuals out but it's like there's everything from those crazy stories we told you to the one that Matt and I tend to believe which there was like an accident and a closet and it came out of some bag seed you know to ever changing story from tk origins with different years and different plants and different certainties you know and you know it's also possible to that like it's you know it's it went it was it was strained by a different name and now we just know it is Kush yes you know I mean we you know Neville told Neville told Matt that he thought that most of the American Kush stuff was based off his Kush for nl2 yes yeah you know and it was all just it was all just phenos of that he just thought it was nl2 expression out of that yeah you thought this is nl2 this is mine obvious right and so you know and then you know there's so there's all these different things but what regardless of all that you know yeah someone you know there's a there's a bunch of rumor yeah and since we don't know any of the parents right it allows basically anyone to step in and say fucking this is the story well I mean I also think because the way O.G. expresses being long and lanky with dense nugs so it looks like what we would just consider traditionally as like a sativa because it's so long and lanky but then it has these dense nugs nugs and resin like an Afghani so it's really easy to just make up bullshit and you're like that's a fucking Nepalese and just some random sativa and some random Afghani you know so maybe we'll go way the fuck back for a second okay right start start at the back we'll start at the very beginning okay so the very beginning of kush in America and we have no idea if this relates to the kush that everyone is familiar with but people would bring back seed from the hindu kush mountain region of Afghanistan and Pakistan and those mountain valleys had the kush yes right and that was the first term Sam skunk man had a hindu kush that was the hindu kush mountain region yeah the hindu kush mountain region the Indians supposedly gave Seattle Greg a kush that got put into nl2 you know there's various ones right and so it used to be a generalized term for a region yes right where now if you fast forward 40 years today it basically goes back to you know the kush that went to LA the TK that type of thing is like that's what everyone thinks of is kush yeah so it went from like a region and all these different Afghans within that region yes to like a very specific pheno expression and look yes was kush and so now if you talk about kush today you're not talking about the region anymore with anyone right now you're specifically talking about a specific phenotypic expression and a look and there's variants within that look but it's got some key characteristics and one second I just for everyone that keeps mentioning the packy lemon tie I will tell the actual story behind how that that came to be and you'll laugh your ass off so let's continue so so anyway so it started off is it started off as a region right and maybe we should talk about the region for just a second because it might interest people right okay so I I have this theory and I've and I've seen it in some different places and all that and like and we've bounced it around and I would so I wouldn't say it's like a theory that's like you know you couldn't poke holes in but I think it can hold generally true that's where if you look at Afghanistan there as parts of Afghanistan that are anywhere from sea level all the way up to 10,000 feet yeah right there's a lot of different elevations so like Mazar that region that's maybe only 800 feet above sea level yes but there's areas on the Hindu Kush valleys that are five six seven thousand feet where they grow vegetables and wheat yeah and so what tends to be is that when you get the lowland Afghans that are in the foothills or the plains or sea level in Pakistan or Afghanistan they tend to be these squat bigger like fluffier plants with much wider leaves right they're not as dense they're growing in more humid areas right a little bit and they're lower to the ground and they have these big fat wide leaves and then you get up into these high mountain regions okay which also has Afghans and those Afghans kind of sound a lot like what Matt described with the Kush that everyone's familiar with yeah skinny leaves but Indica right not not big fat wide leaves but skinny leaves golf ball type much tighter type nugs right yeah and you think about the environment that they're in very cold colder drier a lot more UV right yeah and so the leaves are smaller because catching all that UV is bad yes the intensity is more I think I think what I was talking about this is CSI because I don't have a lot of experience with outdoor other than a few you know like depth runs in San Diego but I notice that even with the NL5s they're expressing way more narrow outdoors and it's just a trait that outdoors because of humidity and other other things in transpiration they're just naturally more narrow there's gonna there's the plants gonna have a range of expressions based on all kinds of factors yeah and you know he only just said you know UV protection the higher up you go in elevation the less atmosphere there is the less UV is filtered out yeah right and so obviously even though the plant might come from Afghanistan if it developed in a valley that's six or seven thousand feet above sea level mm-hmm and it's a mountain region that kind of cold and day night temperatures and a lot of things it's gonna have different breeding pressures and different plants that are successful yeah versus a low lend plant from the plane that gets you know moisture off the ocean that's gonna be a different kind of plant yeah and I think there's a lot of misconception where people think all thin leaf is sativa and the broader and fatter it is the more indica it is yeah you can have narrow leaf pure indica yeah you know it just happens to it's just usually highland weed yeah not lowland weed you know and I think that's a big misconception yeah for a lot of people yeah I think that's a major misconception yeah is is all indica and all afghan the broader the broader is the more afghan and the narrower is the more sativa yeah you know and maybe if you cross the broad leaf afghan to a narrow leaf sativa that would be true in the children yeah you know and so now so so anyway so there's highland afghan there's a lot of there's a lot of mountain valley yeah and there was a lot there was a bunch of weed coming over to america called hindu kush because that was the big mountain range and all the valleys that that came from yeah and dirty old saga saying there's hash plants because those were all hash plants all that and my Lebanese I read lead that I had was also a narrow leaf but it grew like a big afghan sideways it was a real fucking weird yeah yeah and so there's just you know like a lot of times and it and makes sense like you read books and you see what you're familiar with in america right and there's certain assumptions that get made but they're not always the true ones yeah you know and you know and and you know narrow and and what I mean by narrow leaf is just like obviously there's a range yeah bony has a lot of really good narrow leaf afghanese impact is he's put out if people are interested yeah and so it's just and and so a lot of times I I believe very strongly I can't say it's a hundred percent back but I believe very strongly that almost all those narrow leaf indica types developed in high altitude regions of those mountain ranges where they didn't need as much leaf to capture light they needed less of it yeah because each leaf has a job right yeah it's there to transpire water and it's there to catch sunlight that trees and water so it yeah if it if it on my buddy I was visiting my friend yesterday and he was showing me an afghan and it was thin leafed and fluffy as how yeah so you know the leaf has a job and if it's way up there in the mountain valleys and it can do its job on a skinny leaf and it's not going to put a bunch of effort into growing a big fat thick leaf yeah is there a narrow leaf indica type or hybrid or cool expresses many different ways I've seen it be narrow and I've seen it be broad so one of those that it depends on the room the environment how how narrow or broad it is so just as a general thing a lot of times people you know people judge narrow or wide based on and make guesses based on how sativa or how indica but that's not the whole story yeah and I honestly think Mac Mac and tell the story about the packy and the tie yeah I honestly think some of the some of the the Kush that we're familiar with some of its narrow leaf characteristics led people to believe there was sativa in it yeah I think I think the strackiness and all that shit and definitely it wasn't as broad as a lot of Afghans despite the density but the story originated from there were two brothers back in the day that went by brothel brothers and one would call himself Kailua kid and the other called himself NYC kid both I think are still around I know NYC kid is still but back then Kailua kid who also went later on to start trichome kings and a few other things and paradise seeds mod was another name of his he made the claim that he bred og and that it was Pakistani crossed a lemon tie lemon tie was a Dutch flower string and I mean there are ties that are lemony but the one he was referring to as a Dutch flower strain and he's not in fucking og kush is this that's one of the oldest stories that's been shot down more than almost any og kush origin story but to this day to this day people still fucking repeat that shit ad nauseam because they don't know that the guy was a major scammer that started the story he's fucked all of us all of us back in the day but and he made a lot of claims about Asian fantasy and all kinds of other stupid shit it was just what he did I remember at one point he was selling seeds he called dog dog butt s ones and then I kind of called him out and he's like well fuck I don't know man I got him in a bag labeled dog doggy doggy bud weed you know close enough in it so this is the guy that they're relying on for that story that the second story that we were talking about the Frank Gigax story it was started by a guy named Dave Richards and he told the story on Adam Dunn he came out and he actually I believe Adam Dunn at one of the Adam Dunn cups gave him a lifetime achievement award for breeding and bringing og kush to masses unfortunately Dave Richards made a lot of mistakes one of the first ones was that it was a hot it was a hash plant tie afghani which he kept referring to his htaf now htaf is an old term from DJ short referring to Highland tie afghani so he was confabulating different stuff to make his story he also said that Frank Gigax left a book behind with the breeding tips on og kush and everything about it when I spoke to Frank Gigax directly and his daughter went to lunch with his daughter and breakfast we went to a few different things but I talked to Frank Gigax over the phone and he said that he wrote that book is a grow book for dummies in prison because he had nothing else to do so Dave's store and also Frank Gigax said they never bred there it was only commercial production and it was he gave a few different lines I want to say it was like nl for something weird that I don't think you probably had big buds skunk one and something else he said we did no breeding there whatsoever and he completely smashed that story to smithereens but still people again repeat it constantly to this day as truth because it was aired once on a show you know but those are the probably two of the biggest ones the the third being the creepy story and that's just silly like I mean I I don't think anybody that's been around a long time even gives that dude any kind of credit yeah it's not even worth addressing to be honest with you on the creepy thing it's I mean what you know and then there's there's there's the story of how you know there was accidental pollinations in Florida and so really what it seems like it does seem to me at least is that I do believe that there was multiple people that brought Kush from Florida to California yeah I think that's factual right yeah you know we're you know because obviously people know about cornbread Ricky and TK yes right he sent that out before he came out physically himself to the state yeah people know about Matt Bubba and and Bubba Kush and Josh D I'll say I'll say flat out when I when I first talked to Matt I thought he was full of shit because he comes off like a little bit of a used car salesman when you talk to him he's very friendly but it's his it's like his nature so I didn't believe him but everything that I've ever researched and found is he has not been wrong once and and as much as I was biased against him I told him dude like I can't poke holes in your story unfortunately like I don't believe you but I can't poke holes in it so I'm left with the truth as far as so there's an aspect where and Bubba Bubba and Matt Kush that went to LA became very famous TK became very famous there's a strain that got sent to the bay that we called the flow rider that I've chatted about before and I posted about that went into cookie and so well we don't know for sure Irene Irene comes a little bit later but that's another beautiful cushion strain but there are there were multiple people that got pushed to California to different people at different years we don't know the slow down real quick I think I think people would be interested in the Irene story a little bit don't you think sure 100% yeah well so Irene I'll let you tell it cuz yeah go for it so the original Irene is as best I can remember I wish we would boy was here right now but the original Irene was picked from a bag of weed that went from California to Atlanta and what was kind of cool is that we were able to link up resin lung in his crew with the Atlanta crew and how they were shipped I'm not gonna say it I think we said it a few times but you can figure it out anyway they shipped it a certain way and it was so unique that when they were both telling the story was like holy fuck there's no way they just made that one up it was something that nobody would think of it was originally from a bag of weed and I want to say either the first Irene was from a bag of Larry OG or the second Irene that they picked after they lost the first Irene they picked another selection that was the most similar to the first one and that came out of Larry OG if I remember correctly but that's the rough story the Irene that we have now is what you would consider Irene too and that's the one almost everyone has grown only a few people like smoked a herb and rude boy really experienced the first Irene so yeah so there's so basically if you move past the the the origin stories right of who's responsible for it or where it came from yeah of which there are many there was it does seem like the stuff that we know of made its way from Florida to California yeah and we don't know exactly if all those things were the same cut or there was multiple cuts that came out or there is possibility that there's a cut that shared a name and was called different things by different crews those are totally possible right yeah but what really happened is you know Bubba Kush Matt Bubba he brought him and Josh D brought out Bubba and that and a couple other strains from Florida to a neighborhood in LA right and they started growing some rooms of it yeah right and what happened I think in LA is that LA is such a is such a hype town and it's it's it's so about flash and it's so about like who has what whether it's alcohol or cars or watches or clothes or whatever that yeah Kush caught on with a certain clientele and then everybody had to have it yeah and then so demand went through the roof and you know there was only so much of it being grown and so wholesale became crazy right yeah and then so it became worth a lot I mean what was what was uh you know what was it going for back like seventy two hundred yeah it was a whole sale okay 68 K yeah six you know six six six to eight K right yeah and so and if and it gave you status if you had it right and so it just became this craze yeah in a sense and in the beginning there wasn't very many right yeah and the nature of LA we've talked about this before with seed companies but the nature of LA to everybody to pop up with their own shit nobody down there wanted to give anybody else credit for how they got theirs yeah of course so the bullshit and the and the stories started happening immediately yeah you know and the Bubba just so everybody knows the Bubba that that Matt Bubba brought out it died by 98 yeah the Bubba that everybody has now is not the first Bubba that came to came out there luckily the Bubba is such a specific type and breed so true it probably something similar but yeah so I mean they found the I believe the story is it might even be somebody like rascal or somebody like that someone found someone tied in found bag seat in original Bubba huh I don't know not Shaw no I they well I think the thing is is that and I think that's why I got named Bubba Kush because they thought Kush pollinated the Bubba yeah I think Matt Bubba story if I remember correctly and I he can correct me on this is that Bubba is a hybrid Bubba Kush is a hybrid of Bubba and OG and OG Kush yeah so the original order lights so the original Bubba that came out is no more yeah everybody has what everybody regardless of how you want to believe the story according to Matt who brought it out they lost the first plant that they called Bubba yes and Bubba Kush is a hybrid of that plant yeah right yeah yeah it's a hybrid that's kind of it and so to get really confusing within five or ten years of this plant hitting LA there was a whole family of what you call pure kush right yeah Malibu pure kush to pink onion pure kush I don't know about all that I only knew of one pure kush in Southern California and it was called pure kush it wasn't pure kush it wasn't fucking there was no Hollywood no Malibu none of Malibu no change it was called pure kush and it was a lanky ass OG and then there was OG and then there was and then there was kush and then there's OG kush and then then all of a sudden there's a there's a there's a valley cut there's the SFV there's a Larry there's a this there's a that there's a Bubba and all of a sudden the names start proliferating right yeah to the point where I don't know by you know 0506 07 there was probably most the clubs and it was so popular that probably most of what clubs sold in Los Angeles was kush yeah and there was probably 20 or 30 different kushes on the menu yeah and so we really don't know how many original things these things started from I mean yeah we have a buddy that that came to came to our one of our can illuminati parties right remember and he was telling the story about about how he had bought a couple of pounds of kush for 8000 bucks right and he brought it home and he starts breaking up the weed and a couple of seeds fall out yeah and then he's looking at two seeds from an 8000 dollar pound that nobody can get yeah and so he spent the next two days looking at every bud per seat and that became I think the poison oh gee oh yeah causes yeah yeah poison that but that's what he said he said he bought two pounds for 16000 bucks that's yeah he goes dude I'm just rolling my first joint at home and I hear a seed hit the table and roll and I'm looking at this seed and I'm like I just spent eight grand a pound yeah wonder if there's more seeds what if the weed looks like this yeah and so every every seed you know and we have a good buddy who got the kush in 99 we think right yeah yeah he's tied into some of the first people outside of outside of Matt and Josh D that got it yeah in Los Angeles and it was one of the guys mansion cruise yeah and one of the guy and one of the people intimately involved in running it very early on and so we heard a lot of a lot of tales from him about sort of like how it spread and how it started and what it was like and the politics in the clubs right a lot of times clubs would name something because they wanted to be the only club with the Louis are the only club with the this and he has this funny story I can't tell it like him and he has a great accent I could never tell anything like there was some Armenian that you know he would always joke about and like you would be like you're cut and you'd be like $250,000 that's what he wanted for a one-rooted snip of his OG that he had yeah and you know and so you know it's a yeah but imagine paying $8,000 a pound and you find it seeded to him that just meant he was going to be able to grow some of those seeds yeah and grow his own $8,000 pounds yeah he was excited as all fucking get up yeah you know he was stoked because that gave him away where it's like before it was like there was he think about the demand of LA and how many people live in Los Angeles yeah how much wealth there is and when there's only a few garages or a few rooms of these things cracking it goes fucking lickety-split yeah yeah there's way more demand and so changed weed for from then on and maybe we should maybe we should take a step back from the story because you know there's lots of people that like to talk specifics about the origins and how they're tied into it and all that fucking whatever specific cuts but what happened is is because that weed was worth so much money and because it became so popular in this area that had like 25 million humans yeah and it's sort of like a pop culture like you know melting pot for lack of a better term right yeah um ship blew up and then all of a sudden all these different names popped up and everyone wanted to have their own and then what that also started doing was because brokers could make more money off Kush they started pushing all these people 800 miles away in Mendocino and Humboldt and stuff County right yeah so grow weed that they could make more money off yeah and they didn't want I mean you know like my buddy who gave me the flow rider he didn't do it out of generosity he did it because I was giving him the super dog and the dog and the Maui and the super skunk and different things and he had this Kush that he could make way better margin on yeah so he was like give me that get to grow this he didn't tell me he was gonna make way more money yeah I didn't even know that that was the rate down there right yeah but what it did is it pushed a lot of people to start growing similar stuff to feed the market yeah and the purple the purple craze that we talked about before with Caleb and all that that sort of started like the do you have this clone only and you better have it and if you have this specific clone only I'll buy all your wheat and if you don't it's gonna be less than maybe maybe I will maybe I won't yeah right and Kush was another wave just like that yeah you could sell every gram of Kush you have and so brokers started going around and started trying to giving their I mean like who fucking ghost right there was people that sold cuts of Kush for 30 to 50 thousand hundred thousand two hundred thousand dollars yeah and because yeah because they could then they could fill rooms with it and it was like an investment yeah there was violence over Kush which is how the you know I mean I don't we don't really like to tell that story too much but it does seem like the what I call the 56 day headband yep started out name named something else in the Kush crew yeah and there was some stress and some violence and some whatever and they fled the they fled to the bay and they wanted to call it something else so they didn't get in trouble for it yeah and they chose the name headband right you know and then you know there's a lot of people that oh well what what cut when we should talk about this too I firmly believe that the cut that Josh brought to LA first with Matt it's really hard to figure out the lineage what do you mean as far as like what's actually in it yeah there's a bunch of people that think when they get ghost that that's it yeah oh yeah yeah there's a bunch of people that think when they get 92 OG that that's it there's a bunch of people that think when they pop Josh D OG seeds that it's but about that one for a minute I'm just saying some people think SFV some people think Josh some people think ghost some people think 92 right someone mentioned that earlier again you know and our buddy said he doesn't think any of those are it yeah right yeah so what happened in LA is everybody came up with all these different names it's not even like there's one SFV there's a few that float around oh yeah what there's not just one there's not one top oh not one Larry yeah there's multiples so what you consider is like SFV is it there might have been one time when when it was called it but a lot of what's currently circulated right now is that isn't it yeah and some of the people that bought ghost off ghost like 20 years ago for high dollar they don't think the ghost cut is it let's get passed around that's not what they got 20 years ago well the guy that goes around is ghost now that people talk about is not the same ghost that had the cut and traded with Oregon kid for Michigan most people confuse this Kelly guy with the original guy yeah there's a lot of the ghost cut right now isn't the first ghost cut yeah what everybody knows is ghost grow isn't the first ghost that passed the ghost cut who now lives in the Midwest again yeah I don't even know if ghost grows the same one is the one that was going around calling himself Kelly Kush farms that wasn't the Michigan ghost the Michigan ghost I talked to one of his buddies and he asked to be put back in touch with Oregon kid and that's the first time I realized that the ghost that was kind of hanging around Oregon kid wasn't the same ghost that passed the cut so I put him back in touch but I don't know what happened from there the people are people are ripping through the stories or whatever right and it's because the first people that the first people that brought it out sometimes with certain strains you lose chain of custody yeah you know I mean there was an issue where freaking you know I don't think Josh will get too mad if I say this but like Josh lost the cut in an accident and none of his friends in LA wanted to give it back to him and he had another story and he had to go to a friend in the bay that he had stashed it with to get it back yeah right and that's typical weed yeah because people were like oh it didn't even matter that he was the guy that they got it from it was profit yeah a lot of these original guys that had it they lost it right and and there's an aspect where it's like and I don't mean I'm not saying that like people have fake ghosts what I'm saying is that there's four or five cuts out there that all claimed to be the cut that Matt and Josh brought to LA that's yeah and they're different and and those cuts if you grow them side by side they're not the same cut yeah like I don't and I don't mean not the same cut that they first brought I mean not the same cut to each other in the same room at the same time yeah so then how do you know how do you know what you know and nobody called 92 92 yeah that that's a more recent adaptation to the name that's a more recent adaptation the first name there was no going back to like when it was first around for a number of years no one called it 92 yeah that came later yeah you know and so you know we don't people don't know I don't know if the 92 Hollywood Hills cut is the same as the flow right we don't know if it could the flow rider be the exact same cut that Josh brought out to California to LA it could I don't know yeah you know I got that one early but I didn't get the Josh cut early and I didn't get it with provenance that I would know for sure yeah they don't I see people keep asking about the shit should night in the cushion or that story is a bag of worms that no one wants to touch because nobody has any facts really around it so I'll leave it alone but yeah they there's rumors going around that they might have some relation and one the one that you think would came came first might not be the one that actually is the first one between the two yeah you know so so there's a lot there's basically I bet there's a bunch of people that have different named OGs out there that are the same OG and so one guy's one guy's Larry could be another guy's SFV could be another guy's ghost yeah right because these names became interchangeable and then you start adding names and then you start getting Lou Louie and fire and you know Diablo and yeah and da da da da then there's all the pure Kush names and all those rips and then there's the master cushions and two or three of the master cushions look like bubble cushions yeah and one of them that I used to have was tall and lanky and dark and very stringy hell I think two dogs I still think two dog has the fucking so Cal master every time I see it it looks exactly like it those angels and then you say that vibe you know that yeah you could you could probably name and there was probably a 10 year period where like you could walk into a club and they would have 20 25 different names on the menu of Kush yeah right oh yeah some some some collectors out here were only OGs and that was their shit like we only carry OGs it'd be a fucking list of like 40 different OGs yeah and what's funny is that you know that fucking dude ghost grow whatever he rages because there's people in LA that their entire career has just been learning how to grow Kush yeah and selling it for high dollar yeah and it had such a long successful popular run before things changed that some people's entire careers have just been cropping Kush yeah you know but there's no like there's so there's this aspect where because it's one of the most famous families of weed out there yeah there's in a bunch of origin stories and there's a bunch of claims and probably most of the cuts that came out of LA are bad yeah one would think and then sometimes that's what I always thought and then sometimes a different crew would get it and they throw a different name on it yeah or just renames and backseats yeah yeah and then you know I mean I like Josh or whatever but Josh did the stupid fucking thing where he took he took like what ha og and then something else and something and crossed it all together and then called it original Josh D no that was karma who did that that was karma yeah it was karma is doing not not just ease yeah oh god well then yeah karma can suck it yeah because because it's an obvious play to tie it to yeah you know yeah use like triangle Kush and oh yeah and and ha og and something else and yeah you know but yeah and so we never heard when was the first time you even heard the word 90 did you even hear the term 92 og the first 10 years you heard about og I didn't really hear that until like over five years ago the 92 attachment that specific year yeah and so now people are like oh well is this but this should be the first one right it's the 92 it's the one that started yeah and it's like one of the more recent og names yeah you know how did the Louis get started how did the fire get started how did this get started like it's hard to find these stories yeah because people don't have a interest in honesty what they were trying to do is sell a different Kush for a high dollar oh there you go yeah here you go nature farm has all those old something and they aren't done it there you go now you know I know yeah he's at the battle he's got KNF cures duds I've seen his movie yeah we've seen his movie he's got everything you want you know he doesn't do any like negative testing or anything like that but you know he just knows he's just got the sense you know but yeah fire og is rascal SFV or maybe fire og to somebody else is something different fire og is a clone it came out of a tray of clones and it was it I don't know which specific og it was but and I don't think he was told anything more than og and it was fire so he called it fire og that was it and then later on swerve made a cross of fire og and something else remember correctly and called it rascal og yeah and so it's one of those things that one of the biggest things about og is that og og and sour but especially og are is probably one of the first strains that like it just dominated breeding and hybrids for so long yeah you know and what's interesting is like for a long time and maybe we should talk about this for a second but for a long time people would work og's and they would breed with og's and they would s1m and kind of the best pheno would be the one that looked like mom yeah right yep it was really weird it was like you wouldn't find a bunch of shit and the good ones would be the ones that look exactly like the parent and then Caleb reversed the TK and he got a much wider variety of cool phenos yeah and he found ghost in there and he found he found ones that looked like a lot of popular ones and that's that's like one of those ways for a breeder if you're a breeder to know that you have like you have a mother type situation of a bunch of other cuts is when you s1m and you're seeing all those sister and brother phenos popping out of what you just made and that's how you kind of get the idea that triangle might be the the predecessor so it's interesting because if you know if there was bag seed and there was multiple cush strains found in that bag seed then the initial bag seed would probably be a hybrid maybe right and you know it seems like there's there's at least one maybe a few cushes out there that throw much wider phenos than most of them yeah so it almost leads it it almost leads you to believe that a lot of these cushes are lucky bag seeds yeah that people found and named but because it's an s1 of cush already it kind of looks like itself for the most part yeah it's one of the it's one of the reasons why Caleb and I believe that the chem dog the 91 itself might be an s1 yeah because it throws such a narrow band yeah of phenos there's a bunch of there's a bunch of physically it doesn't look very different potency wise it can bury quite a bit in some flavor yeah but there's a really narrow band of physical expression yeah and a lot of cushes are like that yeah probably because they're bag seed yeah you know and it's also interesting too that like you know I mean the the two of the most famous strains out there the cushion the sour diesel neither one of them reverse very easily yeah there's a lot of failure with those right yeah they suck they suck so a lot of times a lot of times things get reversed on to them yeah you know that's that's usually how it goes the only only real OGs I'm seeing people like regularly reverse or OG hybrids and they they have to get lucky and find something that'll reverse well but most of these old OG cuts be it you know bag seeds the bag seeds and we're finding that like s2s s3s shit like that doesn't reverse well for whatever reason it's really hard to reverse like a multiple self or multiple bag seed generations and that makes sense for OG it makes sense for a lot of these OGs you know so it's like yeah they ended up getting out crossed and then people would would would reverse some of them looking for better shit and the best shit that they would find was the shit that looked like the shit they already had yeah and I got kind of over OG because while I think it is an amazing strain and I'm not here trying to diss it or anything like that I don't think that it's genetic expression is wide enough that you would need to keep 20 different ones yeah and you're like this one's earthy this one's lemony this one has a slight hint of this this one's more tennis balls this one's darker you know yeah look at that Matt someone wants you to s1 the hogs breath yeah I've done it before I'll do it again I haven't I haven't run it again once it started getting past I dropped it so somebody asked an interesting question why does s2 and s3 and all that get harder because what happens is is you're selfing so there's only one set of genes and so every time you self you increase the propensity of recessive traits that are negative to be able to pop yeah right and so the deeper you go into selfing the more narrower you're putting the genetic pool yeah and that's when issues start happening that's why there's rules against it for humans you're not allowed to bang your sister or your first cousin go well or your mom or your uncle or you let me tell you from personal experience yeah this shit sucks bro yeah I mean it took out the whole royal family's Europe yeah they needed some out crossing yeah they kept selfing essentially almost yeah so that's why and then and then you know as things get more narrow a lot of times s3 s4 it starts getting a lot weaker it starts getting a lot more prone to lack of vigor stress other aspects and there's a lot of regular breeding there's a lot of regular breeding that uses selfing successfully but it does agriculture in normal agriculture absolutely selfing is a massively used technique with great success yeah in cannabis it seems to have negative connotations taken maybe maybe people have a different idea but for me at least what it seems like selfing the biggest thing is is because most of the things that we have our our individual cuts and not seed lines anymore yeah it allows you to see what else is in the genetics besides that one expression yes you know if if you had you know a hundred seeds of what og kush came out of and it was males and females you'd have a line yeah but if you have a cut then how do you how do you see what it is pure not outcrossed yeah so a lot of times I mean Caleb talks all the time like if people are looking for consistency in in in seed then the way to go is some of his outcrosses yeah a lot of the the feminized hybrids yeah a lot of feminized hybrids if you're looking for specific phenos but you're willing to tolerate more junk yeah go to the S ones yeah but the S ones are going to have a certain amount of recessive stuff in there that's undesirable yeah as it read with itself so the outcrosses you know Urkel reversed onto kush would will be more consistent than Urkel on to Urkel that's why again why like when I talk about the blue bonnet and despite what was said about it that it was a pure blueberry line I still think to this day that it's a hybrid because all those recessive traits that blueberry usually carries when you further inbreed it or gone completely erased and I talked before about how I didn't like the the pure blue lines very much at all yeah yeah but then you outcross them to different other amazing things and those kids came out way better than the parent in my opinion exactly and I think it just it's I think it was massive in breeding going on in such a small environment and the constant crossing of two two distinctly different expressions like crossing Indica to Sativa or whatever most people don't breed like that they breed in this direction most people don't keep constantly in crossing two different types through generations and that that caused some weird inbreeding to go on and and not all the best traits to be apparent DJ is really unusual dude yeah because if you believe him what he says he basically took four plants and never added anything else yeah yeah and everything that he has comes from those four plants yeah right it was like a organ purple tie and a juicy fruit tie and an Afghani and an Afghani yeah and maybe something else or that's it the the the organ purple tie was chocolate tie while hawken gold so yeah yeah okay count those two if you count those two it's four yeah exactly you know and then a lot of times all those things were only used once yeah according to him never never backcrossed to again or reintroduced and he just lied and he just worked within the lines yeah and so you know Khmer Khmer has talked about how he kind of used all of DJ stuff is this big mangled inbred specific thing yeah but at least it's cool because you never mixed anything else into it yeah but that's really unusual it is it's everything about how he made I agree like I spent I spent several thousand dollars on on those specific seeds and I had to really work to find things that were good blueberry turps because that just wasn't what I was seeing in the line I told you I ran 400 and 450 of four of his lines yeah you know and I wish I was bragging about keepers yeah but you know like I wouldn't have loop on it without those lines so there is great potential in those lines but I think like you said it's in the hybridization I really do it's in the hybridization you know it's kind of like that thing with like you know the closest thing that we have to a to an actual IBL people throw around IBL all the time it drives at nine nuts yeah IBL so yeah right because an IBL is essentially something that's been bred so consistently that it just is what it is yeah it is what it is everything's looking like one with each other from and everything looks like clones of each other so if you have some kind of ideal where you're trying to grow fields of exact replicas it might be a good tech if you want to breed all of the genetic diversity out of your shit and everything that you cross with it is going to look like it yeah then you know fuck yeah you know but I mean that that g that 88G13 hash plant kind of throws phenos that are just like it yeah it junk you cross things the deep chunk and it's very deep chunkish yeah yeah well the gene did point out that like there are so I when I refer to IBLs I do think a deep chunk because visually it is it is very uniform I mean there's like two phenos like two visually expressive phenos that look this date but when you smoke it some have a much better high than the others so that I when I was speaking about it I was only speaking visually when when in fact the true IBL would be for all traits across the board but that's why it drives Matt nine nuts because there are no IBLs in cannabis yeah you just can't and so and so an IBL is basically something that breeds true for all traits yeah and all the seeds are going to be very narrow within that tiny little band yeah you can have a true breeding strain that's only true breeding for one trait yeah like the body it's true breeding for blueberry terps and that's it right or you know you could have you could have something like skunk one that's true breeding for you know improving calyx to leaf ratio or you know bud structure or this or that but it has a variety of terps or you know things in you know so true breeding and IBL is like the furthest example of true breeding it's like when all the characteristics are the same yeah and true breeding is just one or more of the characteristics you can count on seeing in the project yeah so when someone the other day I can't recall who it was I think it was a lady was saying that they have an F2 IBL and people are like what the fuck that doesn't make any sense and that lady was like no it makes sense it doesn't make sense to have an F2 IBL it's not possible no and so there's a lot of terms that are thrown around IBL is the worst one because you should be able to buy a hundred seeds of an IBL and see less than two percent variation yeah and I think I think what where the miscommunication is is that a line being inbred is not the same thing as an inbred line and line breeding is not the same thing as an IBL you know IBL so specific and line breeding and in breeding in a line don't denote an IBL it is a process to getting towards an IBL but I think that's where a lot of confusion lies yeah if there's if there's a bunch of variation of any traits at all in your weed it's not an IBL yeah you know IBLs is basically a way to an agriculture to grow clones of each other from seedstock yeah that's its goal yeah so you know if you're going to grow an IBL for weed it's like you're going to breed all the cool shit out of it and it's not going to be worth breeding with once it's an IBL for the most part because it's going to have such a narrow range it's going to make everything look like itself yeah and so hope you know so if you made an IBL maybe it would be just you know if it was something that was just so incredible but it probably be a frame yeah it probably be a bunch of work and it would suck yeah you know realistically speaking and it's an in cannabis another reason it's very hard to make IBLs is because males express different females even if they are the same expression males are oh even if they're the same general phenotype they the male always grows taller than the females so they don't look identical so trying to choose the male expression of a female line that you want to find is very fucking hard to do yeah that's why it's much easier and faster to do it through selfing and there's an aspect to where someone was like well what if you just picked a really good plant to IBL that's assuming that all those traits will be the dominant trait the more that you breed in breed into itself and you're not going to lose them by inbreeding yeah you know you know so so there's an aspect there where it's like it someone just said that's a good question I missed whatever the question was yeah I was trying to look for it just now I don't know if Matt if you can find it or someone wants this you know the whole thing there is no cubed term the only motherfucker that ever used the term cute like like the C99 really cube that was a Mr. soul thing that was sort of his own terminology for he still has his and he even after this like he still has his fucking trading wheels he's a slow down oh my god but yeah there's no cubing was just like he found some bag seed and he started inbreeding it to itself a bunch you know which was already probably inbred and it's not only lock-in shitty traits it's like you know one of the reasons why they don't want you to bang your sister is because the shit that happens to you when you start breeding humans too close is a lot of mental issues physical issues various kinds of things start popping up that in normal humans are never dominant yeah but if you inbreed enough you can combine those two not dominant genes and it'll pop dominant oh that question you said what about this isn't a real question what about recombinant inbred line like tony green and gg4 rl i can't even answer that like without laughing stop guys you know and i think that's a guy who is talking shit about Caleb and said he was at like f12 or some fucking that there's there's there's an aspect where it's like let's let's be honest it's like there's a lot of there's a lot of terms that get loosely applied to cannabis yeah and they're not that well understood and it's not anybody's fault because not like there's seminars on this shit and a lot of information gets passed through friendships and a lot of times some of those friendships like aren't passing the most reliable information about things yeah right yeah you know that's what it is and so people don't know what the term means and it sounds like they've done work if they put stupid ass terms at the end of it f12 like if you really think that some dude that that's been around not that long is it f12 then you do not understand breeding or how long it takes to make it through generations and to do real breeding to make sure that generation is correct and if you've made an error to go back to the previous generation keep working because you're never going to hit it right 12 times in a row guaranteed so implying that he has worked something like 12 generations to is asinine to people actually do that and there's friends of ours that are breeders that are like dude I had this awesome line and then I did this thing to it and I didn't end up keeping enough seed from before I did that thing yeah and then I fucked it up just get rid of it to get rid of that seed and go one to two gens back and go in a different direction but I didn't keep the seed and I fucked it up and it's not as good as it was before and I can't make it the way it was before because I didn't keep that gent so it's basically like a misstep yeah right you can make a mistake if you don't save if you don't save seed from every single rip you know and when people say f2 f3 f4 I mean what that means is that you're supposed to grow a bunch of seed pick males and females yeah that exhibit traits that you want cross them and then breed them okay here's a question and I'm gonna address it just because me and me and CSI were talking about like an hour ago or right before we started this anyways but it's crossing an elite to an elite breeding or pollen chucking I consider regular breeding like using a male I consider that vacation and taking days off like that is the easiest shit to do you don't have to do anything you just they they make their seeds themselves you don't have you might have to shake it around that's about it breeding using reversal techniques is a lot more involved it's a lot more unpredictable you can make a lot more errors a lot real fast I mean you could you could take something and isolate it and make it more true breeding really fast but you can also make huge errors right away and very rarely does a pollination go where you can just like get something and shake it in a reversal and the seeds make themselves that just doesn't really happen that often a lot of times you have to get in there with fucking tweezers tweez out of each one shake the fucking pollen out half of that shit won't be good and it's just because that's that's how it goes so there's an aspect to which I should mention and that's the reason why match said you're knocking your 12 12 readings that all makes sense and what he means by that is that let's say you're at f3 and you grow up a bunch of f3s and you're ready to make your f4s and then you realize that you don't like that combo yeah and you want to go back one generation earlier and try again yeah because you didn't like that selection so you're like in order to get to f12 that means 12 times you would have to grow up seeds like what you see yeah females and males of each one cross them together grow up their children and just keep doing that and every single time every single f gen you're like fuck yeah I won yeah fuck yeah I'm good a lot of times you're gonna get somewhere and be like oh that went in direction I don't like that nearly as much as the f4 this f5 sucks I gotta go back to f4 again I did a green crack vx1 and I you know I was one of the early growers and breeders with green crack I love that fucking strain I don't know why it's just nice and mango eat it was really beautiful purple I'm sucker for purples but in the bx1 I had crossed it to and actually done a few but the one that I ran with was the platinum banana og as the male from it and out crossed to that back to the green crack and all I found was a lot of platinum banana og plants and not many green cracks and I didn't expect that because usually green crack breeds dominant but that was one of those cases where it's like okay even though it's a bx1 and it sounds like it should be super green cracky that's not how it played out in in practice it was only in theory so it kind of was an epic fail and this is why breeding is such a bitch because you spend all this time and energy doing it and then you're like oh I don't like that that choice back to the drawing go back go back you know you know slide slide back down and start over yeah and so there's a lot of missteps and there's a lot of things that you hope will happen like I'm gonna take this and cross it to this and I'm hoping these traits come together and you and then you're like oh that's a horrible yeah I got her back up and that's why so many people just like to make one one off out crosses to different things not test it and just release it and just move on to something else yeah because you can spend a bunch of time dicking around and then so much time I mean there was there's an aspect where Bodie was telling me when when he first got the 88 G 13 hash plant right mm-hmm from and the end guy seeds yeah he didn't realize that they were already f4 yeah so he kept the first he kept males and females of the first round and didn't lose them but then he took it three more gents yeah right and it got shittier and shittier every gen yeah and what he ended up using was the very first seeds that he popped from the initial seeds that he got yeah and that's what and that's what's in all those hybrids that people buy from him is because those those moms and dads made way better crosses yeah than any of the intentional work he did after because he thought he was getting it kind of raw so he's like oh open pollinated a couple times and all that yeah you know and he spent all this time three doing going three gents that's a lot of time that is a lot of time a lot of effort it's not rewarded yeah and then you're like and then he's like each one of these gents sucks ass and I'm not gonna use them yeah I'm just gonna stick with this first shit I have over here yeah I could have saved myself a year yeah you know and so that shit happens and I can guarantee you after being in this business this long that what's what's sad and what a lot of people have noticed that that are in this business is that they're the how quickly things sell it how much work you put into it has no reliance on that it's all in the name it's all in the height it's all in that kind of stuff so there's no real reward to putting in all that extra work to then fail and spend a lot of money doing it or to then succeed and still not be able to outsell something else that's being hyped so when people when people make comments about like I don't see breeders doing long work anymore there's a reason it's just not financially viable anymore and as bad as it sucks to hear that as bad as it sucks to say it that's where it's at and that's why most breeders if you were to ask them like you know to like people breed and they put in a bunch of crosses and then they make a bunch of packaging and stuff and I'm not dissing it by any means but I'm just saying that they don't have time to test every round of everything you just can't anymore before release you know it's not it's not it's not feasible you know you you might look through the things that you're the most interested in always but yeah and see and be like oh I really want to see what's in this hybrid you know even that is the minimum I can think of like seven people that do even that much you know I mean it's very it's very difficult and then there's an aspect where you know I mean Matt and I when we were researching like I guess you'd call it last season's podcast that we were doing and we were doing a bunch of never work you could go through the sense catalog from 91 to 95 and it barely changed yeah barely at all just little tiny things barely changed you know some some names here and there one or two things but maybe in five years they added three or four things to the catalog yeah right and now it's like people come out with 20 or 25 new strains every crop every time they make make a drop yeah a lot of the times and then when they make another drop six months later it's a totally different set of shit yeah so it's become vastly different people used to be able to get away with Simon from serious seeds for 20 years he sold six things yeah right I don't work no more now white Russian chronic AK Collie Mist bubble gum and one more one more than I'm forgetting yeah anyway he sold sit he sold six lines yeah and he made those six lines over and over a nice that a K I think but when we could look it up but there maybe I think it was six so five off the top of my head it was six for sure but it was six but you know 15 years of just making I'm gonna make these same hybrids again yeah I'm gonna make them I'm gonna make them I'm gonna make them I'm gonna make them and it was like they didn't have to change that much since these catalog the first five or six years was pretty consistent and then the last three or four years in the 90s they added four five or six more things yeah but then it stayed consistent after that yeah and now it's like that's not what breeders or growers or anyone expects it's got to be all new shit yeah yeah I mean even with me early on I would like to clock the clockwork orange I'd always keep that in stock and like the white Russian for big ones I think you did say that maybe Russian I don't know yeah I don't know but it kept it in stock been over the years you realize that's not even viable to do anymore because people want new and now and new and now at all times and not everyone obviously but the the majority of the seed people buying seeds that's how it goes and if you don't do that you it's not a viable company anymore and so Matt and I laugh because we read all this stuff about what people think breeders act most a lot of breeders are actually doing yeah versus what they actually do yeah and they're like all these guys are testing this and that and they're looking for herms and they're looking for this and they're doing this and that and they're making choices and selections and they're not most of them yeah because the the most profitable way right now to make seeds is just to like blow off a room do you know collect the seeds I think it's even worse than that I think the most profitable way to make seeds like the compound guys like that they buy seeds from other people already made and label them something they're hiking there's a bunch of stuff that goes on with like people would be shocked to know there was you know how many how many of their like some of their favorite Callie people got their seeds made in Spain yeah yeah you know or have some dude that they know that has a tent make seeds and act like they're blowing up their facilities yeah yeah and so there's a lot of fakery there you know and people eat it up and they realize that they with IG and what these things they can control the narrative and hype and people never see behind the screen door yep and so the amount that they think that they're yeah people most aren't even germ testing most aren't even taking a hundred or two hundred seeds and spending two or three days and making sure they get a good pop rate yeah no and that's what fuck candy rain they didn't pop you know and he sold them they sold them for like eight hundred bucks a piece or eight hundred bucks a pack or something like that you know and but so there's all these things that they think their breeders are like these mad scientists like really putting in the work and most and that's how they present themselves yeah and then the people that do put in work and but don't show it that much for various reasons they get called out for being the big guys that aren't doing the work yeah all the time and you're like dude your hero is like paying some kids to do the work while doing photo ops while while ordering half of it from Dina Femme in Spain right yeah and you think he's been carefully working on it for the past 12 12 months yeah you know and he's just putting his name on it it's literally a relabel yeah how it goes how it goes you know and and there's not a lot of pressure so I'm not and so there's just and there's so what Matt was basically saying is that there's not incentive or for financial survival for most people to do what the customer base would like them to do yeah in my opinion yeah no there isn't it's just not there it's not there anymore unfortunately used to be there and I think a lot of us had rather just quit than join the stupid shit parade yeah I mean think about for a minute you know think about how many people out there can do what our buddy CSI does yeah which is show pictures of rooms regularly of what was running and show pictures of seeds that he made that there's 200 phenols growing in a room yeah you know and you can go years and years and years back of he hasn't he hasn't popped everything he's made that's crazy yeah but he's constantly popping stuff that he's made and looking through it and that kind of dedication is like uber there you know it's like him and a few other and Matt you know a few other people and some hobbyists who are doing it for love and most of the famous people no yeah no definitely not because it's just not financially feasible and they don't have the space and they don't really have any goals either they're trying to just make much money off the seed drop yeah Caleb Caleb I can guarantee you will spend every dime doing it right because he's so OCD and autistic about how he gets it done and it's very admirable he also his favorite part of the whole process is seeing what's in the hybrids he makes oh yeah yeah that's actually love testing that's actually the part that keeps him going the rest of it is kind of a soul drenching grind yeah but that he gets excited about yeah so that's cool I've never met a man more excited about genetics and seeds than that man and it's it's fucking awesome because he's one of the him and not so and a few of our other friends there's the only people that I've ever met that I can sit there and nerd out with like that and work out for hours on the phone and just talk about genetics and and our wives all hate it I'm sure yeah I actually have a buddy who just mentioned it me too he's I have a buddy who's like as old of a seed weird breeder interested in the process as you'd ever meet there are people scattered throughout Mendo and Humboldt here and there they've never been a majority anywhere yeah it's definitely a weird offshoot yeah I want to have I want to have Uranus come on some time and talk to you because I know he's a big fucking nerd like us he is you know so a bunch of my friends it's like even fucking Caleb it's like there's people that aren't comfortable talking in public as much yeah it's a hard thing kind of yeah I do believe you know because you're live like in person just sitting around with a couple buddies smoking joints and shooting the shit if you could capture that it's amazingly conversational oh yeah yeah that's why like the parties like even even for me to sit back and watch everyone like talk genetics and it's like I'd like even some of the people like everybody that was involved with OG Kush except for big Ricky was it one of them you know like everybody with him was there and you can oh yeah listening to all of them talk all at once everybody I mean people should know the guy that's famous for Irene rude boy you know he came out with his whole crew one night yeah that was fucking cool with her and brought his herb and we had our you know we sat around and we saw should we shot the shit you know and exchanged a bunch of stories and you know confirmed a bunch of things and you know so yeah not so does not need to grow mustache dude I mean the thing is about mustaches right I'll just say this okay and this this is no prejudice whatsoever I'm 46 okay yeah when I was in my 20s and 30s I would say the only people that had mustaches were like police fireman and gates yeah there was no dudes just now it's back in style and there's a bunch of like 20-somethings or whatever just rocking massive 70s stashes and shit but it was like it went out of style like the station wagon yeah for a while yeah and he looks like a time he literally looks like a Tom of Finland character when he has the full stash do you Superdog let's do Superdog before we're done Superdog okay we are getting close to being done but I will people but we're bugging so I will give a brief synopsis of Superdog so let's do it Matt sent me some stuff that like blew my head off about Superdog and in some forum posts and stuff like that that we won't get into yeah but needless to say I think what happened is is that there's a there's a few versions and there's a few things that happened over time right and my buddy who I never mentioned I just call him Staten Island it's mostly it's a it's a bunch of it's a bunch of his story really but yeah you know the story starts I guess with he gave the Super Skunk to a chem dog to Greg yeah right and in 93 ish I think and 94 ish Greg calls him up and he's super excited because the Super Skunk had affirmed onto the chem dog right and he got a bunch of seed and he grew this seed up and he said this seed is so amazing I'm growing this stuff instead of the chem dog it's unbelievable right yeah and so there was this aspect where get where my buddy Staten Island thought okay maybe we could blend these two things together yeah but we didn't know shit he didn't know shit about STS or reversals or anything like that back there right yeah this is so pre-pre that it's unbelievable so yeah homie 3000 miles away just had an accident and got some seat yeah and so homie out here thought maybe I'll have an accident maybe we'll do this but he basically started the project and he took a Hawaiian plant and crossed it to the Super Skunk cut yeah and then he got a he got like a Super Skunk line for lack of a better term yeah right bred that a couple of times and then he took a he took some males of that and tossed it on the we tossed it on the the chem 91 yeah and the Superdog was born right and I was helping him a little bit in the middle of that and then him and I worked together on hunting through a bunch of Superdog itself right and doing further outcrosses so there was some stuff on the East Coast that might have had a similar name that came about in a very different fashion you know but no get the fuck out of here yes you know what I'm gonna tell I'm gonna tell one real quick story and so I was obsessed with finding that Superdog cut because I was a big fan of diesel and supposedly they were similar genetics almost came 91 Super Skunk supposedly one was supposedly chem D Super Skunk according to the cannibalism for time so I had already had diesel and I loved it and the Superdog really interest me and and I wasn't sure if maybe they got it wrong and it's the same cut so I remember asking Greg back then chem dog about it and he kind of inferred that he had bred it and then I saw another post today where he again inferred he bred it so the fact that it was the same genetics as your guys is out in the West Coast and there's still no pictures no provenance nothing for it and every time I ask for any info about it all I get and with diesel as well all still all I get is let me check my notes and I like to do a lot I like him dog a lot he's a good dude I met his wife she's really cool but yeah that's that's as far as I can get with it I do think in my opinion I think they didn't know much about Superdog they heard about it and that he may have taken credit for it back then and it was probably what was going on with Gabby and you yeah so so we did a bunch of work on it and it took us a week we and you know it's like there's a lot of projects like that where when you don't have some specific goal in terms of like timing or anything it's like we popped off a rip here and then four months later six months later we did another stage of it over here and then you know it's kind of like that you're doing it along while you're growing and yeah we ended up what happened is what most people what most people know of is we started picking phenos like the seven the three the 30 there's some pictures of it in the can of Bible yeah I started spreading it around I started giving out selected cuttings the friends and we crossed it there was a time when we did you know we were trying to do I don't know what you call it it's not quite open pollination okay but we basically took out of out of hundreds of seeds we took like our four or five favorite males yeah combined with about seven or eight of our favorite females yeah and we put them in a room when we bloomed them and then we threw in literally every good cutting that we had at the time so actual chem 91 actual super skunk the warlock my black dominant cut the Maui the the Mendo perps the creepy yeah the creepy no no we didn't have this was before I didn't have a cushion yeah I didn't have a cushion quite yet or anything like that but but we so we did basically just like it was like bred amongst itself yeah and then we bred it to like every fire cut we had at the time and go ahead good oh my gosh so you know I uh that one totally distracted me but I am I didn't do that herbalist I did do that one that's the what I call skunk spring cam line and that's the only other one besides the air on the Afghani line that I consistently can can make skunky shit come out of really easily so I mean you know he doesn't really like to chat in public or whatever but he probably my buddy from Staten Island is probably should get the most credit for the super dog because he put the most time into it him and I did do projects with it together and then it was the projects that him and I were doing together that ended up getting spread out and getting photographed and getting traded to people and that's kind of I think where it started popping up on the forums yeah and people started talking about it and seeing it I gave a bunch of super dog hybrids to Mandelbrot and that's kind of the basis of the males that he started with his emerald emerald mountain seed company and all that so that so it started it got it got mixed into some other things that are pretty famous to but we won't go into that right here but it was what we were trying to do is we were trying to get the density and the potency of the chem 91 yeah combined with the color and the crystal content and the nose of the skunk yeah so we wanted potency and density from over here and we wanted a little bit better looks and frost and turp from over here yeah and it works pretty well it's killer you know and honestly it probably would have it probably would have taken off a bunch more if the purple and then kush and diesel craze hadn't started where everyone wanted to grow the exact same strains to get the dollar yeah for sure you know yes the super dog would have been in in disposed in 2001 in the bay 100% that would definitely be an era that that would definitely be an era where you could have gotten a lot of super dog went to the bank a whole bunch you know and you know you know I've talked before about how we lost it and some of the different things and been hunting for it for a long time it you know it exists in a bunch of children and you know skunk and chem seem to be a great combo yeah in general I know I know that at least in 2000 say 11 or 12 that Maui super dog was still being grown up north that weird I don't know if you know Karnak the weirdo yeah oh dude so there's there's phenos I have friends from Trinity County that grew for years and their boss his favorite strain was a Maui super dog yeah a Maui super dog hybrid you know some of the Maui super dog Mandelbrot wrote about it a bunch but he found out of seeds that I gave him something he ended up calling the truth yeah yeah which was Maui by super dog that just a straight Maui by super dog so I think better still holding that cut for you too by the way and so there's there's a number there's a number of phenos of that that float around yeah and there's some other stuff we won't get into right now because that's a whole another movie where it's in yeah so it's it's it's blended into different things but it's one of those gigs where it's like weed reinvents itself every five or ten years and people only like to grow what's easy and popular and it would probably knock people socks off today but it came out at a time when it wasn't able to get as famous yeah you know because it was coming out in 2000 2001 2002 2003 you know it's just that was like a different era yeah things didn't get like naturally hyped very easily well just couldn't spread yeah people that couldn't communicate as much clones didn't spread as much there wasn't clone trading going on very much there wasn't clone mailing anything like that you know so so there's an aspect of that that someone's asking if you what did you have all find out did you find a line on anything that you thought was lost recently not so that I thought was lost yeah I mean I there's you know we did get something that I considered to be the Trinity or at least you know extremely extremely close to the the right cut you know yeah and we that was lost for 15 or 18 years to us and I'm still not sure if it's the exact right thing yeah but if it's even the people that seem to think it might be not think it's incredibly closely related yeah like it I asked one or you know something like that but I think it's the real one and now what gets hard is that because old things are becoming popular again everyone's coming out of the woodwork with old things yeah back that goes back to the fucking question that dude had about a smear campaign I absolutely consider diesel chem skunk weed yes yes 100 percent yeah super me diesel and sour diesel and all that is is chem is is chem skunk blend before we close it down I want someone want you to talk about Francine they kept they kept mentioning it so Francine was an extremely tasty indica and obviously that's that that's the cut that facilitated the the trade for the super skunk and my buddy ended up we ended up letting it go because like a lot of amazing afghans it had horrific raw issues yeah and it could it could grow all these big beautiful colas and then there'd be gray rot running up the center step yeah and a lot of people had fine had had issues with breeding a lot of early afghans because afghans bred in rock yeah because they grew up in a in a dry cold afghan environment and then they get brought to like moderate sort of humid california at times and they just they just couldn't handle it yeah so it was it's one of those things where it's part of the lore but it was intentionally dropped for issues and it was dropped long before any of us thought that any of this weed that we were growing would matter yeah I'm sure to you know so so yeah I mean we've now been talking two hours and six minutes yeah well probably we try to keep it two hours every Friday you know yeah so maybe now it's a good time if Matt if you want to do any plugs or anything like that oh yeah so go to Google type in free your syndicate patreon if you want to go join us on the patreon probably watching fights tomorrow and yeah we're always on there shooting shit ask us questions there join in and we probably gonna have some contests coming up it'll be fun check out speak easy they help us produce the podcast and the audio version so go check them out show them support all my spouse right see go dot com we didn't get to not those manscaping so I'm kind of owned about that indeed yeah it's probably a it's probably a two or a three-part show you know at least at least it needs props and pictures all kinds of stuff and just in general in general two or three parts yeah two or three parts yeah so anyway thank you all for your Friday night as always as always for me give suggestions give give ideas reach out to us DM things you want to hear about yeah this is all about us chatting and interacting and stuff so but again thanks for the Friday night have a great day night