From Chicago, we invite you to enjoy life like with Luigi a new comedy show created by Psy Howard and starring J. Carol Nash with Alan Reed a Year ago when Luigi Basco left Italy to start his new life in America He promised his mother that he would write her and tell her about his adventures So now we look over Luigi's shoulder as he writes another letter to Mama Basco in Italy dear Mamma Mia America is full of a wonderful of surprises and Yesterday is one more surprise for me in Italy if you want to grow three takes a couple of years What are here in America? Did it happen overnight? Yesterday I passed a big lot on a cornerholster street is empty this morning I passed same lot and the mama Mia is a whole the forest of a Christmas tree I guess the soil in a Chicago is a pretty good Or maybe fellow he used a special kind of seed because each tree she grow with a little price tag on the branch Right now is a big holiday excitement all over America and the signs all over they say is only Four more shopping a day's until a Christmas. So shop for now hurry up I begin to hurry then I look into my pocket for me is a no rush Pasquale my countryman who owns a spaghetti palace next to my antique shop And who bring me to this country? He tries to give me surprise yesterday.  He's having a good time this afternoon He comes back from a park and he say what's on the fire boss.  I mean, what's cooking? It's a little early for supper No boss, I mean, what's doing Jimmy, please if there's a three ways of saying the same thing is say it the right the way first time All right boss, I'll watch myself and while you're watching yourself who watch English a language or two Sometimes I don't know which one of us is a foreigner Okay, boss Hey, what you doing? What's that book? I'm adjust to buy what they call a ledger so for new year We start the bookkeeping what we really need around here as an efficiency expert Who's it that's a Jimmy well an efficiency expert is someone who keeps checking on you all the time Tells you what to buy and not to buy and keeps after you to make more money in America That's called an efficiency expert in Italy is it called the wife Look boss, you have to change your business method. What do you mean? Well like yesterday you bought a chair for $30, right right and you sold it for 20 Why keeps of the merchandise are moving But boss, that's not good business take any other businessman around here I guess you're right Jimmy that's the fellow on the next block He buys all the things for a hundred two hundred dollars sells a for eight to nine hundred dollars But boss, he doesn't sell antiques. He sells used cars same a thing All right to Jimmy beginning tomorrow, I'd be good the businessman no more of buying just to sell it What's wrong with starting today? Because I buy something else for that. Oh No, boy. Oh, yes a Jimmy see it's the right in the window that silver cup. Yes. How much I buy it for $50 50 is a cheap. I call up dr. Simpsons from museum. He's gonna look at it I think he's the colonial but boss that only leaves us with $20 in the bank What can you do with $20 don't worry? I figure out of some way to spend it Is a customer Merry Christmas Merry Christmas to you sir My name is Johnson is a fine American name. I'm a Luigi Bosco find Italian name. I Noticed that silver mug in your window. How much are you asking for it too much? Well, it's for sale, isn't it? Yeah, Jimmy, but Mr. Johnson wants to buy it. How do you know he wants to pay what I'm gonna ask Well, what are you asking for that mug $100 fine? Oh, that's great. You sure you want to pay $100? Yes, you're too anxious. How about it 200? What you just said a hundred what you can't do that Why not all the way as a fellow who sell he sells high price to first and then the customer says a low price I'm running my business different. I'm gonna start with a low price And then I go up in a set of a customer coming it down Well, if I said okay to 200 your next price would be 300. That's right.   I hope so. That's the way. It's a 300 We can't both be crazy I explain to you, Mr. Johnson, I only buy this a cup this morning What's that got to do with it when I get a new thing? I like to keep for two three months Then maybe I sell You're the first antique dealer I've ever seen who ages his own antiques Goodbye, mr. Bosco. Goodbye, mr. Johnson is a pleasure to do business with the old merry christmas Boy, I know what you're gonna say jimmy, but don't worry. Is it gonna be other customer Like uncle pietro saying is the plenty of fish in the sea The bigger the bait the smaller the fish the smaller the fish the bigger the bait What does that mean? I don't know.  The jimmy is all dirty. I was playing football with the other kids That's all right. There's no excuse to go ahead and wash your face. Then I go out and play some more football Well, maybe I polish up a cup Is a wonderful old cup older than the united states People is born fight die But a smaller silver couple in Hmm Maybe I become a philosopher instead of antique dealer Luigi my friend. Hello, Luigi. Hello. Hello. Hello, fosqually Hey, what are you doing with his shaver the cup into your hand? Is all the mugger from a time of jefferson looks pretty smaller for jefferson. The shave is a mug No, isn't that the for shaving is all the colonial silver drinking a cup What do you talk a cup is a cup? That's all But there's a big difference between cups I explain When the people run away from europe a long time ago They come here without the furniture without anything. So when a fellow want to drink He have no cup. That's about it with the paper cups Fosqually in the olden days never mind, Luigi you and olden days Old antiques, that's the trouble with you everything in these places are old even you getting old Can't help it is it not the possible to get younger That's why i'm coming over to talk to you I'm worried about your future my little man I'm thinking about it too.  Oh, no fosqually. Oh, yes, Luigi But i'm gonna give you a bigger future right now. See this little box. Yes is the christmas the president Thank you fosqually don't attach Luigi in this little magic box is your whole future Is a magic box? Hmm. Yes, don't attach Is it like a pandora's a box? You know who is a pandora? I mean lots of people into my business I'm not a remembering all of them No fosqually is all the greek story. I explain since when do you speak a greek? I explain in english Once it was a greek lady pandora. Also was a duper. All right. The nevermind explainer here. Take to the box No, first i explain. Luigi take to the box Okay Now open up. No fosqually. I don't marry ross. Wait the wait See what's inside of the box Oh It's a wonderful What is it? Well, is it it's a wedding array Look what's written inside from luigi For rossa Oh, no fosqually is not even for me. Take it back. I'm not gonna marry ross. You're not gonna marry ross. No You said no. Yes. Yes. No Then here's the five cents What for you buy a newspaper What for I need the newspaper suddenly because it's suddenly luigi.    You bet you I make the money I make the money all the time But you you never gonna make any money. Pleasure past quality. Give me a little time I sell antiques. I advertise in the paper. I'm gonna advertise on a radio and take a business is no good Maybe I don't go into other business. What maybe I get a job teaching english at the foreigners You foolish a man luigi, but that's quality your friend knows the way to clear all your problems And you have a merry christmas if you marry What do you say my son we'll go by papa And now for the second act of luigi basco's adventures in chicago We turn to page two of his letter to his mother in italy So mama mia, maybe past quality is all right Maybe I know run antique a business is a good So I have a bigger talker with myself and now I'm gonna be a first to class the business a man Just like other chicago fella mr. Receiver robot I'm gonna sell everything in my store And if a customer don't pay me his price Or if he don't pay me my price I compromise I sell it to his surprise Also, I'm not gonna be afraid of past quality anymore. So I go right the way over to see him But squally, I like it to see you not to now busy with important fella run a log a little antique a man I'm coming to see you later Go ahead and mr. Johnson before we interrupt the use that's the fella you know him show I'm gonna bring him to this country. I'm he's a liner lord. He's my best friend He's a very peculiar guy. I hate him.  He has in his window I'll give you one of my cups and mr. Johnson. No, no, no I was in there and offered him a hundred dollars for it You want to spend a hundred dollars or for that the mug? Yep. I'll get you all the mugs in the chicago You want a 50 dollars a piece I'll even go to 125 125 I bet it don't have caused that much when it's a brand new Oh, naturally the older and antique the more it's worth I've done you a couple of important favors pasquale and sure sure you help for me with my license So you're a friend of the judge. I want to give that cup to my wife for christmas. She's nuts for cups Mr. Johnson, you go home. I buy it for you and don't worry.  Hello. Hello. Hello pasquale. I'm sorry. I was busy when you come in. What do you want to see me about? Please the pasquale. Maybe you change your mind about the lease. Maybe you don't have to push me out Push you out. Who's going to push you out? You you don't remember? I hear you with the my own eyes Must be another pasquale luigi is impossible. It can't to be two pasquales Oh, you're wrong luigi is a big tragedy in my life because it is the two pasquales luigi I'm a little double the life I'm a man with two faces Must be extra worker when are you shaving the morning?  That's for you Then is the other pasquale. He's a gentle fellow. He's a kinder to people He's a happy to learn a certain of people of money. Is it too bad? That's the pasquale. He don't come to america Luigi, you must forgive me things I do sometimes This only happens when it a bad the pasquale He wins over the good the pasquale pasquale. You ever hear of a dr. Jekyll? Where is he got his office? He's a story dr. Jekyll and a mr. Hyde See is the one man outside But inside is a tool I explained Lisa luigi no explanation I'ma come over here now to help you out.   Sure. Here's the 25 hours.  He grabs it back No pasquale. I know can take money just like that. He said now you should be in a proud of luigi I'm your countryman. Are you friend or take about how I pay you back? Well, if you feel that way Maybe you're selling me and take it for my money, huh? Then it's a strictly a blizzness of deals I never think are you interested in statutes. No, not a statutes I'm thinking about that a cup you have at the window. What's the for you want to that cup? I'm very much interested in that cup.  Then I'll tell you what I do. I put it. It's a cup in my window and I put up a little side Georgia washington a sifter here It's a nice idea pasquale, but I'm paying the 50 dollars. I'm losing the money if I sell for 25 I'm only sorry for you for 25 dollars a word. Then I don't sell. Okay. I give you 50 dollars When a pasquale is you want to help a friend expenses a no object as long as it doesn't cost the money Why do you suddenly want to buy this a cup? I love and take a cup. Since when? Since Before what the happens? Luigi, you ever catching me telling the truth to before? No All right, Luigi, I'm gonna come clean He's a bigger political fellow. Mr. Johnson. He's gonna do me lots of favor He's bringing lots of customers into my store. Oh, I promise him a copper for his wife I'm sorry for you pasquale. Luigi, if I don't get it. It's a copper for him I'm a runner. Mr. Johnson. He don't do me favors He's your friends that they all stop eating into my place.   Go to buy a pasquale Is the last straw comes at the end of the month out There's a no more antique stores. There's gonna be shoots as a delicatessen No more antiques hot dogs I'm gonna fix how much is this a politician a fellow he offered for cups hundred dollars You'll tell her the truth to pasquale. Luigi, would I lie for 25 dollars a profit? I How are you suddenly make a 25 dollar profit? It's just simple. Mr. Johnson, he's offered a hundred dollars for a cup I'm gonna give you 75 dollars. Are you make a 25 dollars? I make a 25 dollars. It's a 50 50. What do you say, Luigi? Antique a cup of now cost a hundred dollars For a luigi you pay 50 dollars for cup of this a morning. Why is it suddenly 50 dollars a more? Antique is now eight hours early the older and is a work tomorrow All right, Luigi. I'm never gonna forget this here. Here's a hundred is a one the condition Pasquale, you ever hear of a bill of rights? I'm no interested in your bills Is it not to my bill is a government to bill all right when they send me I pay no You know you don't understand bill of rights is a from old days You ever hear of a jefferson sure sure as a street to here in the chicago No, not that the one at thomas a jefferson. He's the right to this the bill of rights I explain After revolutionary war they make a first the constitution. I don't care what they make. I'm interested in the cup So mr. Jefferson, he says must the protect the people Must the guarantee luigi when I'm a want a history lesson. I'm gonna go through the news of real theater What's the bill of rights? I got to do with a cup If you want to buy cup then you sign luigi basco bill of rights Okay, I sign first first time. I must write right First read them of a press read them of a press Means you must never press me to marry rosa Sign here, okay, I sign and I'll sell me the cup next is the freedom of speech What's that? Means you're free to make a speech to me about anything except marina rosa Luigi, that's a very hard condition. I'm a rosa's a pop if I'm gonna ask you to marry her. Who's it gonna ask you? Sign a posquale How's about it? I'm only can ask you on a sunday Well, okay, I make a amendment to posquale You promise you'll never ask me to marry rosa Especially on a sunday Sign the here, okay, I sign and now the cup wait the posquale Now I hang up for luigi basco bill of rights next to this a picture of a jefferson What are you gonna see it all of the time? All right. All right. So give me the cup first to give me the hundred dollars here Thank you posquale. I'm a really good businessman. No posquale You're improving the luigi Very you still gotta wake up at three o'clock in the morning to be the posquale Now i'ma gonna sell this the cup for a hundred and twenty five a dollar. So how you like that? Oh mama mia Mind if I use your phone and my good business friend Hello mr. Johnson Posquale I got a good anew I buy the cup for a hundred and twenty five dollars But i'ma gotta sign on my life away to get this What do you say mr. Johnson? ah You don't wanted the cup Your wife has a new hobby collecting a hundred dollar hats No, i'ma no angry mr. Johnson That's all right Goodbye luigi my friend Well posquale you still own beautiful antique cup Sure. So just do what i need for my restaurant I'ma gonna serve a five center coffee and a hundred dollar cup I hope for my customers that they choke Here luigi buy back your cup. How much do you want the for it? What do you mean how much the same a price i pay a hundred dollars? I give you seventy five dollar posquale is the now second hand luigi Give me a hundred dollars. If i'ma sell it for a hundred and buy it for a hundred. There's no profit No, i give you seventy five Is this you best the price? Is it twenty five dollars more than i pay for it? Okay, here Now here is the seventy five dollars You come in again at some time for posquale is a pleasure to do business or what they are Mr. Bosco, i'm luigi bosco. Here's i'm dr. Simpson the curator at the museum You tell her for me this morning. Oh, yes. It is a pleasure dr. Simpson. Where is the cup? Is it right here? Oh, yes, this looks authentic. I'll just take it back here into the lines luigi, who is it is a fella? Is the doctor simpson is a friend of dr. jackal He he's a curator.  Then why you call him a doctor? He's a know about antiques.  This cup looks to me as if it might have been made by benjamin bird. Uh, who's this banny bird? One of our early silversmiths. Oh, it's a priceless piece mr. Bosco How much will I would want to say exactly but I can tell you this the museum would give a lot to own this one Here mr. Bosco luigi take your hands off of my beautiful a cup So it belongs to you. I'm buying this a cup of backer from you luigi. Here's you seventy five Pascuali every time I sell you the cup is a hundred dollars. Remember Is it worth a hundred dollars a doctor? All I can tell you sir is that if you love silver this cup is extremely precious Suppose I don't love a silver. How much is it worth? I only appraise these items for their artistic value not their monetary worth But I would say that each word never mind a doctor before luigi changes his mind He's a hundred dollars a luigi. Give me the cup. Okay, pasquale Now doctor say as much as you like.  Bosco luigi. Okay, what's your bid? But mr. Bosco luigi five hundred dollars Mr. Bosco luigi our museum would love to own this cup if you were willing to donate it What's the mean a donate?  Just to think pasquale every day Thousands of people that go to museum Just to see you're a free cup is a no pasquale cup there As you wish mr. Pasquale, well, please, please the doctor simpson adjust to one a minute Pasquale, I'm not the listener luigi pasquale Inside you now as a dr. Jekyll and he fights with a mr. Hyde this fight. I'm a bet on a mr.  Are you putting something else? What would you like us to add mr. Pasquale? Just to say uh, this is a beautiful a cup but donated by mr. Pasquale 23 north the whole state of street Especially this week a blue plated dinner two and a quarter So mama mia I'm making a little money. So jimmy and I we're gonna have a nice christmas Maybe we go ice skating in the lake Rosa She says she want to go too But if she follow once is a no more ice skating a season Is to start throwing a season again? Anyway mama mia I'm a wishing you a very merry christmas Is the most wonderful sound in the whole world? When a church bells ring and the people every place that they shake hands and they say merry christmas Across the ocean mama mia I send you best wishes for a merry christmas and the peace on earth PS You're loving a son of louis g the little immigrant Life with louis g is the cy-howard production that is written by high craft and cy-howard stars j carol nage over cbs the columbia broadcasting system


Righty! So as many of you already know, Carolyn's dropped a POV slash off-ride shot of Copperhead Strike testing on its first launch and I am blown away. This thing packs a lot of power in that vertical loop and then that bunny hop right after the vertical loop. I'm so excited for this ride. It's looking better and better with each individual video, picture, anything that's released about this ride. There's so much attention to detail. You can tell Cedar Fair really put a lot of effort into this coaster and it's showing. The decals have been attached to the trains. There's water dummies in the train. I tried to sign up for the water dummy position online, but it looks like I didn't quite meet the qualifications. I don't know. I thought maybe I had the dummy part in the bag. But anyways, definitely super excited for Copperhead Strike. I should be on this in under a month now. Super excited for Copperhead Strike. What do you guys think? Comment down below what you think of Copperhead Strike now that you've seen the first testing of the first launch released. Are you going to be there opening weekend? And I don't even know. I'm so blown away. I'm super excited. I can't wait to see the second launch. I mean, that's a powerhouse in itself, that second launch and the elements following. And yeah, everyone knows that after the construction tour you guys just had a couple days ago, there's so much attention to detail and theming on Copperhead Strike. The whole coaster as a package is beyond amazing. When they first announced this, I wasn't the biggest, like I wasn't most anticipated for 2019 with Copperhead Strike, but it is really creeping up my list for most anticipated attraction in 2019. And I have a feeling it's going to be a winner. I think once people ride this, it's going to be a huge success. And I already see a lot of people commenting on it being a lot better than they were expecting watching this video. I know it is for me. Anyways, I wanted to give you guys a quick update and my reaction to Copperhead Strike's testing footage. It's absolutely amazing. Carolyn's posted it on their Instagram, so go check it out on Instagram, Carolyn's Instagram again. And definitely stay tuned for more updates on Copperhead Strike because I'm beyond excited. I know you guys are probably beyond excited and I just had to update you. Anyways, thanks so much for watching. Don't forget to hit that like button, subscribe if you haven't, and share this video for others to enjoy. Have a good one guys, bye.


A Minnesota judge has taken the unusual step of allowing four protesters to use a necessity defense, enabling them to present evidence that the threat of climate change from Canadian tar sand crude justified their attempt to shut down two Enbridge Energy Pipelines last year. The ruling was made by Judge Robert Tiffany of the 9th Judicial District in Clearwater County. Emily Johnson and Annette Clapstein acknowledged they turned the shutoff valves on two pipelines in Clearbrook as part of a coordinated action against five pipelines in northern states. A total of 11 activists were charged. Johnston and Clapstein of the Seattle area say that as far as their team knows, this is the first time a judge has allowed a full necessity defense on a climate change issue. They're due to go on trial December 11th. Two co-defendants who filmed them will stand trial later. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


Thank you So this is an intentionally provocative title because I found that I have more fun and talks if they're At least half discussion rather than talk. So here's the plan You know, I'm gonna start out by making a statement. I'm gonna follow that up with a question and then You know complete it with an entirely incomplete answer Followed by heckling and and what I'm hoping is that I can get through those first three things in about 15 minutes Leaving a full 15 minutes of heckling Or if you guys do your jobs correctly There will be just a constant stream of heckling and that will be much more fun. Yeah, I was looking at you Dr. Nick to I'm you know So here's the statement is that web apps do not work the same way they did in 2004 Yes You know and So if I you know still today if I were trying to describe sort of how a web app works I probably would say something like well, you know You make a request to the you know when you log in you make a request your browser makes requests for the server And it returns a response with a bunch of HTML and then the browser Renders that HTML and probably embedded in that HTML or a bunch of anchor tags that become links and have URLs Associated with them and when views are clicks on one of those your links then it makes another request for that URL and The browser gets a whole bunch more HTML and it renders and we've got a new page Right is that approximately how you know you guys would describe how a web app works? I mean there's forums and stuff too, right? That's the you know So so me too, but it's lies at least for for the web apps that I build now It's lies and increasingly for the web apps that people are building. It's lies That's how it worked in 2004. That's not how it works in 2010. So a lot of web apps now You know You make a request to the server you get back a huge wad of JavaScript and maybe a little bit of HTML And then that's it that sits there in the browser for the entire session, right?  It's after the the hash in the URL. It's not something that ever goes into the request So examples of apps that work this way new Twitter Which just came out like yesterday or whatever? Google instance search Which is you know also quite recent? Tremly which I just have up there because it's an app that I built last year etherpad Which is awesome Gmail is kind of the canonical example of an app that works this way And for a lot of these it's not just that they're more responsive When when they're they work this way or that you know, it was a little easier to build or whatever When they work this way, it's that they truly couldn't have been built in the other way Right Google instance search wouldn't make sense as a kind of traditional multi-page web app Right, I mean you can kind of think of the original Google search There's a multi-page web app because each time you hit search or page through the results You were actually taken to a new URL and you know It is a newer request in the browser fully re-random page, right? Etherpad, you know, I don't know how many of you guys use etherpad It's sort of disappeared when it got acquired by Google, but but it still exists. It's open source and it's up there It's an awesome app. It's like some need to edit on the web You could not do this without having a huge amount of client-side JavaScript, right? And Gmail you probably could build, you know another way, but it does feel much better and more responsive having built that way Let's take new Twitter as an example when and and I should add as a disclaimer Although I do know work at Twitter. I had absolutely nothing to do with new Twitter But I think it's totally awesome and was built the way that web app should be built Also a disclaimer nothing I say is necessarily the opinions of my lawyer blah blah blah Even though I'm gonna use them as an example, so let's actually look at what happens with new Twitter So here's a search on new Twitter for go-go root co And there we go rotten fruit basket at my feet and if I click this What's gonna happen is we're gonna get a request that returns a bunch of JSON, right?  And that's all that's going on This is a big JavaScript app that every single click that you do the entire time You're using new Twitter is just making another request for another JSON file that it's then gonna use to you know Add stuff to its UI, right and you can see the URL here. This is the URL, right Twitter calm period is the URL There are no other URLs in this app I mean there are background ones, but not once the user sees or cares about right everything else is just after the hash So no matter what I do here, that's gonna be true, right? So that's a fundamentally different way of building web apps then the way that we are all probably used to building web apps and Let's get that keynote here So why did I mention 2004 2004 is when base camp and rails came out, right? 2004 is the world for which Rails was designed and when the fundamental design decisions that went into rails were made and those fundamental design decisions I would say, you know have continued to this day, right? You can't change the fundamental design decisions necessarily without rethinking from the ground up when those design decisions were made This was the world that we build web apps in and that is not the world that we are in now And certainly not the world that we're gonna be moving into 2004 is also interesting because Actually someone was doing web apps that way back then And that's Google because Gmail came out in 2004 and Gmail blew me away and probably blew a lot of other people away, too But the reason that no one else did it back then is that it was really really hard to do and Google had the resources and the guts to do it But very few other people did and that's changed and it's changed for a few reasons a couple of things that I think have been especially essential one is jQuery or You know other JavaScript frameworks like jQuery, but I think jQuery deserves kind of a special call-out jQuery removes a huge amount of the pain of doing cross browser JavaScript development or in a huge amount of pain of working with the Dom and so on which doesn't have very good APS to begin with The other thing I think that deserves a special call out is Chrome Not to say that everyone necessarily uses Chrome because the market share is still relatively small But Chrome acts as a huge force pushing the rest of the industry to catch up and with their JavaScript implementations It's important to remember the JavaScript in 2004 was a really slow language, right? All the implementations of JavaScript were quite slow probably slower for example, even than MRI is At running dynamic languages these days. This is just a chart I pulled from the language shootout, you know V8 the JavaScript implementation in Chrome runs up to a hundred times faster on some goofy benchmarks than MRI does Right, but in all of them it's a lot faster, right? so You know you can you can think about the amount of data that you're transferring Between your your web app and the browser and it may actually be faster Rather than doing a bunch of computation on the server to send it down to the browser where they have a fast execution engine They can do a bunch of computation for you rather than your slow pokey execution engine that you have on the server side, right? I'm serious if you're doing like a bunch of statistical analysis on the data or something You may actually be better to do that in JavaScript on the client than you are to do it in Ruby on the server Which is goofy, but it's interesting And just this is I love the URL of the site. This is are we fast yet comm? This is Mozilla's page where they track their JavaScript implementation, but it's just up There's an example of how sort of Chrome has pushed the rest of the industry to make their JavaScript engines faster and faster And I use doing the same thing and I unite to try to catch up with the awesome small-talk engineers that built the a So here's the question The question is how should we change the 2004 design that is to say rails and rails like frameworks to work for 2010 web apps and You know as I promised I do not have an answer for this, right? I have one tiny partial incomplete tiny piece of an answer to this that you know just so that I'd say something interesting But mostly this is just a question and if we think about sort of model view controller, you know model It's interesting to talk about the no sequel stuff because I think the way people think about models is changing But that's totally out of scope of this talk, so I'm just gonna ignore it View you know you can think about no HTML, right? These apps are no HTML apps in the sense not obviously that there isn't HTML involved in some part of the process But in the sense that the server side the web framework sitting on the server is not generating HTML It's generating JSON most likely as what it you know serves to the browser, right? And so what's the view doing right? There isn't really a view You know ERB templates or whatever template system you use It just doesn't make sense in this context of what you're serving is basically a data structure rather than a view So so sort of the notion of view has to go out the window and controller What I lost my controller slide fun Well, anyway, there's supposed to be a slide in there that says controller and no URL Right because if you have for example with new Twitter where the only URL in the system We're the only user visible URL in the system is Twitter comm slash then you know where your roots, right? Where are all your controller actions? I mean, maybe you have some eight some for an API somewhere But the idea of clean URLs is irrelevant, right? Because there is exactly one URL and that's slash So so the whole you know kind of structure that that the framework builds up around controllers Doesn't necessarily make any sense anymore. So, you know, we have to reconsider model We've thrown away a view and we maybe need to throw away controller Maybe it's time to rethink the framework and that's kind of the question that I'm putting is you know What what can we do? To to build something that that recognizes sort of these realities of how we do web apps now For the incomplete answer, I just want to talk about basically one trick And and it's a useful trick, but it's just one trick And I'm going to switch to a text editor to talk about it so People who've seen me talk before may know that I hate templates But you know you can imagine Let's say, okay, you know, I have this bottle and getting a bunch of Jason from the server And then I'm gonna you know build a UI on the client while I'm used to doing that with templates So I might do that with templates on the client side. So let's say I'm just trying to render a list of items and For each of them gonna have a link and when you click on that link something happens with the item It doesn't really matter right so with a template you probably have something like this And this is kind of a vaguely mustache like theoretical template, right? and And the thing that I hate about this among other things is that we're still dealing with Marshalling things to text and back right and this is one thing that that I always sort of went on about when I was talking About seaside is that you shouldn't have to constantly be worrying about okay? I have this object and basically I want to deal with an object and now I have to find some way to Represent it as you know an idea or something and then a second later, you know I'm gonna have to do another manual look up from that idea back to the object Right, but that's what's going on here if you have a template You've got to boil it down to text and so I've got to say okay You know what's this items ID and then when that handler actually gets triggered? I have the idea now I have to somehow find a way to pull back the idea, right? If we're all in JavaScript, you know, it should be obvious that we really don't have to do this and And we could for example build this just in jQuery, which is this top thing Just build the DOM elements directly right rather than having a template and the nice thing about that is I can be in this for each Loop with the item and I can attach the handler and I have a closure right where I can see the item And so my handler can just directly refer to the item You know the particular item in the loop and I don't have to worry it doesn't even have to have an idea I don't have to worry about how I map this to some ID or some kind of textual application and back I just use the object and my handler is going to get the object directly and that's great And that's really nice to write that way and it's actually one of the major benefits of doing this job is good stuff now I would clean up the you know building API here and have something maybe a little nicer this down below is sort of Something that I'm hacking on it's totally incomplete But a possible API for doing this kind of thing and the details don't really matter But it's just to show that you don't have to use the kind of somewhat verbose jQuery stuff directly Okay, this is nice. There is a huge problem with this So it turns out Every other browser can do this really really quickly right creating DOM elements is totally fast and fine You can like have a huge page and you build it up done element by done element. There's not a problem You can't do this or rather if you try to do this and I eat it is going to be slow and so Unfortunately unless you can just say, you know, none of my users are going to use IE this doesn't work Or if you can say my pages are going to be small and not have very many elements But that's not you know necessarily, you know, if you have one big canvas or VML or whatever the IE equivalent Yeah, VML Element and you know, maybe it'll work, but if you've got a fairly complex actual HTML page IE 9 at least a belated beta that I've tried. This is still a problem Right, they just for whatever reason they cannot make inserting DOM elements into the page fast and it's like it's not like a little slower It's like a hundred times slower than the rest of the browser's right and so the one little trick that I wanted to share with you guys is How you get around this and for IE and all other browsers inner HTML is still fast, right? So you can build up text And and add that to the current DOM quickly But now we're back to text and templates and now all that ugly stuff, right? And so the trick is that you still have a builder API just like this one. I was just showing you, right? And and as you are building up your DOM, you're not actually creating DOM elements You're just creating little snippets of text But every time you have a handler that you need to like associate a closure with something You don't actually put that into the text instead. What you do is you? Auto-generate an ID and you assign that to the element, right? So, you know this list item doesn't need an ID, but I'll just give it an ID a numeric ID and As you're doing this you build up an object that says okay. This ID has these handlers, right? And then at the end Once you've got this snippet and you've used inner HTML to install it into the DOM Then you just go back and you fix everything up Right, so you iterate through your map of sort of deferred handlers and you get the elements by ID And then you stuff the handlers into them, right? And that, i.e. and all the other browsers can do quickly And so, you know, it turns out that you can sort of have the best about both worlds in that you can use the speed of Sort of concatenating together a bunch of snippets of text and HTML using inner HTML While still letting you build your handlers that have all of the references to local scope And have this kind of much nicer programming model So I think that that's my 15 minutes of talking time and now I have my 15 minutes of heckling time I may have, you know, might be 2010, but but anyway Please I'd like to open the floor to questions or you know rotten eggs Yes It's not a full answer, but what do you think of frameworks like Sammy to try to organize the You know anchors on the JavaScript side more into URLs Sammy. Did you say Sammy s a mmy? Oh pretty much Sinatra in JavaScript, right? so Yeah, I don't know And and I will have to look at it more because I'm not familiar with it or not But so Sammy is not to run JavaScript in the sense that it's trying to do the same kind of URL routing stuff But yeah, the local has changed. Yeah, so that's something that definitely needs an answer and that might well be a good one You know, I should say that what I'm doing for now is I have rails on the back end, right? So I'm still using kind of controller stuff that I think is not necessary I'm not using active record because that's not you know The models I have don't map to that So, you know, I'm I'm slowly building up incomplete answers to this and that's one that I'll definitely look at Yeah, hey, so I don't know if you saw this but in my blog post where I announced that I'm moving to sprout core I actually cited this talk. Yes, you cited the version of this talk at Django con when I had even fewer answers So I actually agree with the core. I'm gonna happen if that's okay. Yes, please So I agree with the core of this argument that we need better answers on the client side I don't agree with two things about the rail stuff. Well, three one, I guess maybe Django people aren't thinking about this, but we really are And two, I don't agree that the design principles are fatal I think I've said this to you before but the reason for that is that a lot of once you it's true A lot of stuff has to be on the client. That is the next thing, right? But there's things that still have to be on the server like authentication Payments thinking yes, and these things are good to have a framework and they also interact with HDP, right? So yeah That that the thing that we actually spent all the time since rails 1.1 on has been improving HDP support And that's also what we're spending time in rails 3.1 on so even if you don't use the view layer at all Which I am going to find myself doing less and less having essentially a rack plus plus But way better than rack plus plus right like actually something that is really that has a really awesome HDP API is really valuable So I agree and I would be perfectly willing to believe that everything that's been done since rails 1.1 is still useful but what I would like to see is actually throwing out the rails 1.1 derived stuff and You know, I mean the the the basic underlying stuff of using controllers Right if you can imagine a rails that threw out view and controllers and still had, you know All of the other support stuff that you're talking about that's great But then what you need to do also is you need to you know Try to build something that gives you the same level of support for this model of web applications that rails did for the 2004 model of web applications, right? And that's the that's the real pull, right? It's not so much that you know half of rails is now useless, which I would say is true But is less interesting. It's that we need to replace that with something else, right? Yes And that hasn't yet been done, right? And so that's when I say it's obsolete It's not so much that you know We need to throw it away is that we need to build something new and you know It's really easy for me to stand up here and say that right but hopefully I'll do some work on actually doing that Now that I'm actually working in Ruby again, which hasn't been true for about 10 years The third thing is the request response cycle is not obsolete, right? If you have HTTP you still have request response, so I don't think controllers are obsolete I think active record it could be obsolete in a lot of cases, especially with a lot of web services And I think the view layer is obviously obsolete But having a thing that takes a request and returns JSON is is the rails controller model So I think that seems okay. Yes, although it's assuming you know one of the fundamental design decisions around rails I think I would say is Sort of the URL routing model, right and that I think is no longer necessary Interesting right clean URLs who cares what I would say is the same thing I said last time which is sure, but it I don't see any win in Actively making that ugly right so rails is a bunch of work to do that. It doesn't really matter Maybe yeah, but so this this partly just comes down to I mean again We've had this discussion before but it's much more fun to have it in public you know It comes down to whether you care that there's a bunch of stuff in your framework that is no longer useful and Whether you believe that that actively gets in the way And I believe that it's important to strip things down to the core of what you're actually using Rather than to have stuff and I think that that probably leads to more interesting developments Right if you take the step of throwing away of using controllers Then there's sort of a vacuum there that you're going to be actively working to fill and if you just say well Okay, I just won't use that part of the framework then You know the potentials for surprising elegance probably are less we should probably let someone else Yes, I think that I know you do such an excellent job. I just want to say I think that's true Okay, thanks for giving me a chance to talk, but I'm pretty much going to say the same things from a different angle Yeah, as the small talk people know very well the model view controller paradigm is very old And it's not supposed to be just applicable to web applications. I believe it actually started with desktop applications I might be wrong on that but whether or not rails does a good job of mapping those That design pattern correctly has nothing to do with whether or not it's an applicable design pattern for example You were saying that the the back end is essentially API application on these on these Ajax heavy applications of the modern world Still has to exist. It's it sends over JSON instead of HTML That's just another form of the view right where they're not we're going to be using Templates for that view. Maybe they should be presenters instead that transform the stuff into JSON It's simply good decoupling to change to have something in between the model And what is going to be presented to the front end? Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah controller is simply the orchestration layer and I believe that the For a web application having good routes there Even if it's just for API is very important for people being able to discover your your API in the back end and make use of it So, I mean I Definitely agree with you that the model view controller paradigm as a kind of overarching design is still very much useful here, right? What I'm not sure is if the specific implementation In rails and I think MVC gets I mean it can mean so many different things, right? MVC as sort of used to talk about rails like web apps actually has very little to do honestly with MVC as the kind of desktop UI paradigm You know started in small talk. They're very very different things And but you know it's still useful architecture to think about I Disagree that it's useful to think of the JSON as a view I think it's much better to think of the JSON as a representation of the model Because well when you're exposing a public API There's been many times when I've written API applications where I end up finding myself putting logic in the model layer about what what aspects of the JSON should be visible to the To the application using the API and I think that's a poor design I realized that that should actually pushed into the view and controller layers Sure, so whether or not that's actually in the model objects or whether or not that's in a layer above it But I mean I think the more interesting thing from my point of view is that on the client side You have you know it may be a view with respect to the server side with respect to the client side It's definitely a model because one of the things that one of the advantages of this style of application is that you Have this one JSON model that you can actually build many client side views on top of it, right? So you have this piece of JSON and if someone wants to switch from seeing you know a list view to a detailed view if the JSON that's available to it is rich enough. They don't have to make any request to the server, right? They're just representing that same bundle of data in a different way And so I think it's it's a mistake to think of it too closely as a view and you're gonna end up having more Request than you need and you're gonna end up having more logic on the server than you need And you could just be doing this stuff and doing it much faster remember on the client And also you know without the network traffic, which is useful and obviously there's a there's a balance there, right? I mean if you have security issues, you know, you don't want to expose your entire model Obviously, you don't want to allow arbitrary rights to your model, you know There's still lots of stuff that's gonna have to happen in the model on the on the server But I think you at least need to be thinking about kind of NBC on the client, right? I have this JSON model and I have multiple views that look at it and I'll interact with it Yeah, I totally agree that the API should be considered sort of the model layer of a larger Orchestration, but even that layer it's talking HTTP. I feel needs the the MVC model inside of itself Thank you very much for your talk. Hi. Thanks for the talk I think it's really timely and this is where everything's going so I'm glad this is now The message is starting I think get out bigger but talking a little bit about the message I'm a little hesitant on some of the words used in the slides and I want to be maybe a little bit Easier for people to I think swallow So I think that big disservice that happened in our community in a large was the no sequel term Because I think it drew this really big division between people who are using relational databases every day to get their job done And have absolutely no problem doing it and then oh But I feel like I should be doing the same because I should no sequel So I would throw out that we should use less MVC less HTML and not necessarily the word no because it's a lot of other people Have pointed out there's still a huge room for rails and a lot of these Frameworks that coexist to help push this package to the client And I don't want to draw a division to have people go down these routes and throw away a lot of stuff We've been doing so I'd rather see more of a evolution than a revolution Totally I think this is gonna happen anyway, but it's kind of a messaging marketing point that I just want to bring out And as you know, so I'm a pragmatist. I'm still using rails on the server, right? So I mean, I'm saying it's obsolete I'm still using it right so this is this is an intentionally provocative talk And I'm intentionally using but Twitter is already I mean, you know put the meme out there and it's gonna Propagate so it's already happening and it's good. I think we should be talking about this But as we proceed I really as a community, I want us to think more about less not no Great great less HTML all that back. I'm happy to adopt that as a motto But thank you. Yeah, good points. I enjoy the conversation. Thank you So I have more partial solutions. Yes, great So one of the problems that people have with this is how does SEO work? What about my layout the initial page rendering and there's a project out there that I'm not responsible for but someone did That's awesome, which is called the ruby racer which binds the v8 Runtime to ruby. Yeah So you can do is you can have v8 running on the server side and pass it your ruby objects And then you can run all of your templates Which will then you only have to run once and if they're string interpolation templates or builder templates either way those functions That turn data into presentation You can run that then on the server side and have that SEOable and crawlable and indexable and Serve clients that don't support JavaScripts like blackberry phones and whatever else you need to so I don't think there's a great project out there yet That has like used JavaScript for your views right server side, but there's definitely infrastructure there for interested parties to make that happen Yeah, that's really interesting and definitely one thing that I've been struggling with Is that as I kind of move code back and forth between the server layer and the client layer because you sort of don't necessarily know when you're starting a Project what code is is going to want to be where it's really annoying to have to port it back and forth between Ruby and JavaScript, right? And you know, I haven't taken the step of just saying oh, well I'll just use no JS and write it all in JavaScript partly because I find it kind of a pain to write JavaScript It's a nice language, but I'd rather write Ruby or small talk But anyway, so those kinds of solutions are interesting and kind of bridging that gap a little bit I wanted to give a shout out to my buddy super Chris Nelson. You can find him on github He did a project where he wrote a little rack app that Bypass the controllers in the the restful controller where you kind of assume the crud and assume the certain routes It would inspect the URLs and just pass it right straight to the models and then just return JSON back out Okay, so it was a really thin layer between allowing you to use like active model with whatever And use rack to just hit right on to the hit right onto the models And it worked out really well to have a rich Java JavaScript client with Ruby for the server I should ask how many people are building apps in this style right now Yeah, right, so everyone has this problem more or less Rich, I think you're living in a bubble. Oh I work at Twitter, of course, I know It's a really loud bubble, but No, if you look at the sheer number of web applications, they're gonna be built in the next three to four years That is that this pattern will be a major subset of if The frameworks we're building don't support the vast majority of those other ones. It won't be used So I'm not I love this model of program. I really do but realize that in enterprises and Organizations that are trying to use this technology to replace the access database over there or the Lotus notes application That was written over there. They're not going to go to this model yet So why not right? I mean because the answer could just be that we don't have the framework support for it yet It's hard enough for them to get actually doing HTML. I Mean believe it or not, it seems It's obvious that this model with proper framework support is harder, right? I mean this this sounds sort of like the argument, you know I mean, but they're made six years ago that you know Well, no one's gonna use this Rails thing, right because that's right, but the transition from something like You know something with job job of templates to Ruby and Rails is actually straightforward. Yeah It's a different language. Yes a dynamic language or anything else like that But all that aside the paradigm is very similar, right to doing something with hibernate models. Trust me I don't want to go there. I'm just saying that You know from a paradigm perspective. It's very similar. Yeah to go to something where well What we're doing is we're actually going to push all this into the view and we're going to do all this stuff with Now realize Microsoft who introduced a lot of this stuff as much as we bang on them but the ability of actually doing asynchronous requests was because of them and You know, they were building really robust client-side applications a long time before any of this stuff you know and They tried to push this model and everyone pushed back because they understand this kind of server-centric model It's the mainframe mentality, right? This is client server computing For some reason IT loves mainframe programming and we've all been developing mainframe applications for the last five or six seven years That's what the web's been about. Yep. It's Right now we got to go back to to client server computing and then everyone goes Oh my god client server computing is hard and eventually the paradigm well I mean, I think it's swinging that way just like I did in the 80s But I think it's going to swing back eventually and fortunately to this kind of server-centric model But right now I'm I'm hoping that I'm just saying from the vast majority of people that will be building web applications I believe in the next three to four years. They're going to be traditional web applications. I'm talking about the number of apps I'm not talking about yep Twitter and you know these other sites that people use every day I think they'll move more to this model But you don't see the other ones They'll never use the other ones, but they're there and they're being built And we need frameworks that do that and if that framework can also support this model, too It won't be optimal, but if you could actually support both I think that that is high value because then you give people an ability to say hey We can transition you using say rails to this model and now we can transition you here. So Yeah, I mean What you say makes sense. I Generally dislike sort of that kind of compromise solution I would rather see something that is only useful to the small subset of people that are sort of on the bleeding edge And you know if ignoring the enterprise is wrong. I don't want to be right No way, how's that work anyway? But Yeah, you know so so so my my aesthetics are towards Pushing the envelope and and sort of figuring out what the people you know the people in this room probably You know enough people put up their hands saying we're building apps this way that I think there's a need for Framework support for this and yes if we can sort of make it backwards compatible and still work You know well enough with the old stuff. That's great. That's a win But this is sort of the you know Again the argument of whether or not whether or not we actually can get there without throwing out the other stuff And and I would argue that you know the most interesting new designs happen when you go back and throw away the old Design decisions because your constraints have changed and so I'm loathe to continue to take on the constraints that that I'm sort of hoping that we're rid of but You know that's I Live in a particular world and that's what makes sense in that world and I recognize that there are other worlds that I've been Actively running away from where where that doesn't work. I I need to put in here Yeah, put an end to this fascinating conversation We're a little over time. Yeah, do you have anything in conclusion? No, no, we're good. Thank you very much


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So, hello. Good afternoon. We are here for the Octavia project over you an update. That's our last talk in the big Octavia series at this summit. My name is German Eichberger. I'm with Wrexspace. And I'm Adam Harwell. I'm with GoDaddy. And our fearless leader Michael Johnson is on top. He did most of the slides and he's our PTL. Yeah, unfortunately he is unable to make it due to budgetary issues. So, hopefully we'll see him in the future, but it's just us today. Okay. And one more thing. They are recording that and putting it up for generations to come to view. So, we will allow questions at the end. So, don't do them in between. Okay. Okay. Let's get started. So, the first thing is what does Octavia actually do? And Octavia does is basically the project for network load balancing. So, it provides brings load balancing to OpenStack. And we provide a scalable on-demand and self-service access to a network load balancing service in a technology agnostic matter for OpenStack. What we mean with that is we provide an API which is the same regardless if you use this Octavia is kind of overloaded. Octavia load balancer. And the project is also called Octavia. Or if you're using an A10, VMware or F5. So, it doesn't really matter what's in the back end. You have an API which is basically the same. And Octavia, as I said, is the reference load balancing provider. And this one is highly available and it scales with your computing environment. So, basically it fires up VMs or similar. And depending how big you make them, the more you can load balance. So, this project has a somewhat long history. Not as long as some of the others around here. But we were founded during Juno. We've got 65 contributors from 28 companies for the latest release, which is awesome. So, thank you, everybody, for contributing. We may have some contributors here. So, thank you a ton. We started out as scalable load balancer driver for Neutron Lbass. But now we do all of network load balancing for OpenStack. So, we used to be a driver. Neutron Lbass is now kind of merging into Octavia. So, yeah, we used to be a sub-project of Neutron. Now we are a top-level OpenStack project as of Okada. So, that's awesome, too. We're really excited about that. And we were, for two user surveys in a row, the number one networking feature that people are actively using, interested in using, or looking forward to using. So, I think we're hearing your feedback and definitely go fill out those surveys when you get them. It's really useful for us to know that we're actually something you're wanting to use. So, let's see. Okay. Then some key features of the load balancing project in OpenStack and Octavia. We have flexible network topologies. That means we can plug into public network, private network, work with floating IPs, whatever you need, flat sub-nets, whatever. Our reference driver, which we also call Octavia, who has highly available load balancer and uses VMs for that right now. And we have a highly available and scalable control brain. So, it's shared nothing. So, you can scale it whatever you want it and put more stuff there. And we support layer seven load balancing. And we also support session persistence. So, and we also support TLS offloading. For TLS offloading, we require you to use the Barbican project to store the certificates, because we didn't really want to, we really didn't feel that we could do it in a secure way. And so, Barbican is the secure secret store in OpenStack. And so, we're leveraging them for our certificate management and storage. All right. So, for Pyke, our new features and enhancements, we are wrapping up right now merging the Neutron LBAS V2 API into our standalone Octavia V2 endpoint. So, at this point, the LBAS V2 API that hopefully you're already using through Neutron LBAS will be available as part of Octavia. So, you can use Octavia directly. And we have a keystone service for that called load balancer now. So, we also have a new client and that will go directly to that service type, load balancer. And it's part of OpenStack Client, finally. So, no more deprecated Neutron Client. You can see the docs for both of those things right there. We also have support for Octavia deployment with OpenStack Ansible, which is cool. We know a lot of people were asking us, like, how do we actually deploy this thing? Like, we don't want to just look at the DevStack plugin. So, there are roles for OpenStack Ansible now that will allow you to deploy this. And I think also Kala and Kala Ansible have roles for building Docker stuff as well. And Tableau. Yeah. And we have also support in Tripleau coming in Pyke. So, that's awesome. Let's see. In docs for all of those there. We'll make these slides available after the session. Okay. So, talk about the release themes. So, the major focus in Pyke was to increase modularity and user experience. So, we feel user experience goes up when we do the API migration because now we don't have two databases anymore. We only have one database as a source of truth. And there has been problems with syncing them. So, the Elvis database on the Neutron end sometimes got out of sync with the Octavia database. And that's something we will be improved in Pyke. And so, that will improve user experience. The other thing we are doing right now, you have to use the Neutron client. Neutron client is deprecated and we are moving everything into the Octavia client. And we moved Octavia client into the OpenStack client, which also makes user experience better because you now can use the OpenStack client users use for everything else. And modularity is we are basically not anymore in Neutron. And so, it's easier to install us in the system. So, we don't need to go and lock stuff with Neutron anymore before you had to solve the same version of load balancing as you had with Neutron. And now you can kind of keep that out of sync, which makes your play out more modular. So, you don't have to upgrade Neutron to get the latest load balancing anymore. Yeah. Sorry. Excuse me for a second. So, yeah, our release themes for Queens are a little bit similar. We also are still focusing on user experience a lot. And also interoperability and scalability. So, one of our focuses for Queens, again, is we want to be able to scale a lot better. So, we're hoping we can get our active, active stuff going. And we're, again, really focusing on user experience this time, I think on the UI as well. So, our UI has been kind of stale for a few releases, but we're hoping that we can get that beefed up a little bit, a little bit more featureful, and really be able to expose all of what we can do. So, that's kind of our focus for Queens. Okay.  We have submits right now, patches, which would bring this capability to us. But we have to, by the people who did that left, and so we have to kind of pick that back up. And we're working with other partners to help us realizing our vision for active, active load balancing, which will allow you then to scale horizontally the load balancing system. We also want to add support for vendor drivers on the new Octavia V2 API. So, right now, the vendor drivers are in Albers V2, and we haven't started on porting things over, which is a big green goal, but we want to definitely do that. We also want to add load balancing flavors. There are basically two things you want to do with that. So, one, it's for the Octavia load balancer, right now you have to pick your Nova flavor for all the load balancers you are creating, for all the load balancers VMs you are creating. And so, you have to do one size fits all with that. If the, when flavors come, then you can basically have different sized VMs based on the load balancing function you're looking for. For instance, if you want to do less offloading, you might want to get a flavor which has a higher CPU or something like that. For the hardware vendors and for the third party vendors, flavors will allow to unlock specific features on their load balancers, which we don't support in our API, because the API is supposed, basically only supports things which everybody can do, and some vendors have specific things which, which they are unique for. And so, flavors will allow to unlock that, but if you're going to use that, then you have the risk that if you have a switch vendors, it won't port over. The last thing we want to do, and Adam talked to that, is we want to improve our horizon dashboard. So right now, it doesn't allow you to define as seven load balancing things, but we want to add that in Queens and bring it up to parity with everything. Yes, and looking forward to our, we still want to focus a lot on scalability, and I think the active, active stuff is going to roll into that as well. And also resiliency, we're looking at, I don't know if we have a slide on it, but we've been looking at job board for a while. So we use task flow, and being able to pick up jobs with job board would increase our resiliency a lot. So right now, if a worker dies while it's in progress on something, things can get a little strange. So job board should let us pick stuff up a lot better. And then manageability, we have designs on an operator style API.  Actually, there's a patch for that already in Pyke that hasn't merged yet, but we're getting there. And so by R, we want to have something a little bit more full, fully fledged out. And again, as always, user experience, because for us, the user experience is the most important thing there is. We want people to be able to use this easily and actually feel like it's not a roadblock for them to be able to create a load balancer. It should be fairly simple. Okay, then basically that's, so basically we have a lot of questions. We need your help, and we really need to help you with it. We basically want to know what you're using in production so we can serve you better. We want to know which load balancing features you would like to see us implement so we can prioritize our work. We also have requests for developers. You can never have enough people working on something. So we can really use some help on the QA end. We can use some help on the UI. And basically we can also, we also need some help with the core review, with the reviews. So if somebody wants to become a core reviewer, we have definitely open positions there as well. Yeah, if you're looking to be a core reviewer for Albas, definitely we will help you get there. Just start reviewing, come by, talk to us. We definitely have slots open for cores. Yeah, we definitely have, especially Michael, we have spent a lot of time mentoring people when they approach us and meeting with them. So now you won't like to open that up for your questions. If you have any questions for us, please step to the microphones. Since it's recorded, it's important that we do it all over the microphone. Again, anyone who wants to tell us, if you have a deployment of this, what are you using exactly? Are you on Neutron Albas V2 at least, hopefully? Do you have specific concerns about the upgrade moving forward to Octavia once Neutron Albas is deprecated? What vendor drivers are you using that you want to make sure that we support properly? Yeah, and like I said, what features do you think we're missing that you'd really like to see? Because I know we've heard a lot about re-encryption on the back end when we do TLS termination. So that's one of the things we're looking at. And I know there's some other stuff, but what would you like to see? Anybody? We can wrap this up now and head to lunch if no one's got anything. Or we can ask people questions. Why are you using Albas V2 now? Hey, so I think we're using Albas V2. We have a hardware vendor plugin we're using, which is A10. Some of the things we are interested in are exported for. So header insertion in general. And what was the other thing there? I thought we had explore. Yeah, so at least in Pike, maybe Okada, but probably Pike, we, definitely Pike, we added more customized header insertion stuff. So it's possible to add even more, but I know exported for is one of those. What cloud are you running or what release are you running on? We are on Metaka right now. Okay, yeah. So I think probably, yeah, probably by Newton or Okada, you should be able to see that. And in the general use case, is the flavor support supposed to be helping us pass, you know, vendor specific features in? Yeah, so basically with flavors, one of the use cases that German mentioned was like, when you do TLS offloading, you might need a little bit beefier box or you might need maybe to deploy to a different cell or something, depending on what the hardware you have is. And that'll allow us to say like, I need the flavor TLS, maybe. And it depends, like the operator defines what those flavors are, but it would allow you to do that. Or if you're using a hardware vendor and we don't expose something, you could use a flavor that enables advanced features. Is it on the load balancer level or the listener level? It's on the, I believe it's on the load balancer. On the load balancer level, yeah. The flavor will be there.  That's how you want to set things up. But if you're really interested in flavors, there's a spec currently up and you can comment on that. Yeah, I know the spec is, needs a little rework right now. So the state that it's in is not the final state that it will be in. But we could definitely, that means right now is a great time to participate in that discussion. Yeah, we're really interested in supporting features that might not even be in the API. Yeah, yeah, that's why we want to do flavors. All right, cool. Thank you. Anything else? Now, we can specify only one image for Anthro, right? Yes, currently. So is there any plans to support multiple images? Oh, different images. That's an interesting question. We would probably put that, if you do that, yeah, that probably will be part of the flavor support that you can and as those, you haven't thought about that. But I think we probably need to do that since the images are tight. To the size of your VM, so yeah. Yeah, yeah, we should definitely, I think that now that you mentioned that, at least I have that in my head. So yeah, we should do that as part of flavors. So I think you should probably see that as part of flavors. Okay, thank you. Yeah, thank you. That's an excellent, like exact, perfect example of what we'd like to hear because now that can definitely, we can make sure that that's in there. Yeah, anything else? Any other questions? You want to see me do a horrible dance up here? Because I will. I'll do this until you ask me a question. Oh, down the back. Very good, very good. It was regarding deleting load balancing through the horizon, maybe not Octavia, but the previous version. Is it possible, would it be possible, using Octavia to do it through horizon rather than say CLI or whatever? Yeah, so we do have the horizon plug-in for Neutron Elbas. It's Neutron Elbas horizon dashboard. Yeah, it's a horizon dashboard for Neutron Elbas, and it works and we stopped doing releases because nothing changed, and we recently picked that up because it confused people. Yeah. And so we now release the dashboard, even if nothing changes, alongside our other releases. And we also tested it recently, and so it's working. It just doesn't have all the features the command line client has, but you can create load balancers, you can create listeners. It's just the biggest omission is L7. Yeah, if you didn't see that, it's possible you're on one of the releases where we didn't cut a release of that, because I know there was one where we didn't cut a release. Like you said, caused a lot of confusion. So yeah, we've been cutting the releases now, but yeah, there is a Neutron Elbas dashboard that you should be able to use in horizon. But the dashboard is carried on over to... Yeah, and then we basically, what we did is we cloned the Neutron Elbas dashboard project into Octavia dashboard, because it's the same API, and we're just going to be maintaining that one moving forward. Okay, thank you. Yep. If nobody has anything, I know I will be around, obviously, for the rest of the conference. So if you see me around, feel free to ask questions. You can reach us on IRC practically all the time. And the other thing we might want to add, we see a lot of our vendor friends here, so if you have questions for specific vendors, it's a good chance right now too. Yeah. Oh, that's another question. Oh, yes. My second question is, are there any plans to boot, and for instance, by using cinder volumes? That is an interesting one. I don't know if we've considered that. No, we haven't considered cinder volumes. I think it's useful to migrate and for instance, when we have to update computers. Yeah, so right. So that's an interesting one. Generally, our strategy on M4 and our recommendation is that essentially, if you're done with an M4, we treat them kind of like disposable entities. So if you do a migration, we generally say set things up so that all the provisioning will happen to the new cells or whatever and just manually fail over the old ones. And hopefully, again, as part of the operator API, we'll have a more automated friendly way to do this, but basically go through and shoot the old M4 and they'll be recreated automatically on the new stuff. If you're running in single topology, that's a little scary obviously because you'll have some downtime. No, you don't have downtime. Well, there is, it exists. It exists. It exists. If you're on active passive, that's a lot less scary because that way, at least it'll swing over very quickly to the new one. If you do want to live migrate, it is an interesting point. It's not really what we recommend as a strategy, but I mean, people want to do all kinds of things. It's probably a valid use case. Probably would be best if you were here. What would be best, you write us an ARV-E, best for enhancement, and then we can discuss it in our meetings. We have a launchpad, which we didn't put that slide in this, but drop by the Octavia launchpad and put in a bug or an RFE, whatever, with that, and we'll definitely take a look at what would be really hard to do that. Absolutely. Thank you. Just a comment on the gentleman's question. We do block live migrate, so live migrate without shared storage, and that actually works really well. And the other thing is about booting flavors on Cinder. There's a lot of talk about that right now, making that kind of, I think it actually already works, like having the Glantz image be directly a Cinder volume. There was just a talk, just the previous session, from one of the Cinder devs about that, I didn't know, but I think it's actually possible already. I'm pretty sure it's possible to do the Cinder things. So on the other hand, there's always the thing in OpenStack, how much of OpenStack are you using, or do you want to go without OpenStack? And we often, we also get requests from people who say, hey, can we use Octavia, actually without OpenStack? Can we use it with VMware? Can we use it that way and this way? So we get both sides, so it's kind of tough for us to strike a balance. I mean, fortunately, the way that we're architected, everything is a driver. So you can do pretty much anything you want with most of the stuff. It's just we really only have the reference driver for each thing to make the system work the way it works now. But if anyone has development time and is interested in any of that kind of stuff, it shouldn't be that hard to do it, and we're definitely willing to help out. So yeah, again, come talk to us. We are really friendly, seriously. Come by will help you get things working. Is UDP support high on your list of things to accomplish? It is not. So yeah, UDP support is a tricky one. So right now our default backend is HA proxy, and it doesn't have UDP load bouncing support built in. We could add it as a protocol that's optional. Like there's some interesting stuff around that, like how do we add things that may or may not be supported by backends. So the other thing we found is, so we get a question a lot that people ask for UDP support, and then we go in and ask them, what do we actually want to do? And then often they don't need a load balancer for that. So we have to come across very, very rare use cases where they would have absolutely needed load balancers. So that's why it's not high on our agenda.  There are valid use cases, but as I said, people come to us and say, oh, we need a UDP load balancer, and we look into it, and then they can do it different way as well. So yeah, I believe that. I believe. Yeah, there are valid use cases. I know. I know that there are use cases in the world. But it's just, yeah. As far as our roadmap goes, it has to be pretty low priority just because it's like one in 100 or less. People actually ask for that. And I mean, we would love to get more backends besides just HA proxy. So if you know of a good backend that we could implement that supports the rest of this stuff, but also UDP, we'd love to see that integrated. Or the trust supports only UDP. Yeah, and I know some of our vendors may support UDP on their end. So being able to just expose it as a protocol is something we could look at doing. We just have to figure out how to do that. The UDP thing, it's quite simple to add another protocol. We know that it's simple. The key change was how can we support backends that does not support UDP in the sense that you will create a non-valid configuration, what will happen. Should be, I mean, this is quite simple in a sense. I mean, it should be a rocket science. Yeah, so we can look at that. I think, yeah, I don't, I don't know if that should be something that we look at with flavors or whether we can handle that in a different way. Yeah, we can. Doing that with flavors wouldn't make much sense. No, no, it has to be a protocol. Yeah, the reason we haven't done it in the past, we know most vendors support it. I guess it would be like a implementation to reject whatever it does. Yeah, so yeah, we basically, and honestly, I'm thinking about it now. Yeah, it's probably pretty simple. Yeah, but we could probably expose it. I mean, I may just. No, the big problem has been in the past that we can only expose things where we have a reference implementation for it. Since we don't have a reference implementation for UDP, we couldn't expose it, but maybe they kind of, now it's via our own project and not anymore in neutral and we might have that flexibility. Yeah, so. And the internet also supports stuff that is not supported. Yeah, but, but, but yeah. I mean, I seriously, I think it wouldn't be that hard. No, no, no, no, it's not that hard. Absolutely correct. It's not that hard. In the past it was completely political, so yeah. And, you know, I did get two at least of the three patch that's I promised you already in review now, re-based and kind of ready to go. Still have to do providers, but the other two are there. And I can look at that one if I have time. Yeah, I can probably need to check our politics. Yeah, I mean, I can propose the code either way. We'll see what happens. Hi, I don't know if it, if it already exists or there are still plans. What about for the active active? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the huge plans for that. So basically we have patches from IBM, but they kind of dropped away those people. And so we have to figure out how we kind of rescue that. So basically one of us would have to take it over multiple of us. That's one way of doing it. We also, there's also another company which really would like to have active active and they are talking about contributing code to do that. So the IBM solution, they use OVS on an extra VM and kind of to fan it out. The other solution from this company, they want to use their network fabric to do the active active. And we would love to have both. Yeah, we're looking at- But we got to see how the chips fall. There are a couple of patches that are kind of the base for that framework. And there's a spec that I think we're, did we actually merge that? It could probably use a little bit of review at this point. Maybe some updates. But yeah, there are a few patches that are sort of the base of that whole framework for active active. So if we can get those in, it should be easier for people to add more methods because active active is one of those things that honestly tends to rely really heavily on an individual operator's network fabric and the way that they're doing things because everybody does things differently. So we can kind of get you halfway there, but it's hard to do something that's generic enough to work anywhere. I know I'm working on something for that that involves- Well, the biggest problem is- Using floating IPs and- Well, the biggest problem in doing active active with the network fabric is that it's hard to replicate it in DevStack. So then you're running into those problems. So it makes it a little bit more complex because stuff that you can't test is difficult to kind of maintain and things like that, but we are working on that. And the other thing we could use help for that. Yeah, it was on- It was one of our slides. It was on one of our- I think that was one of our goals for Queen, it's actually- Yeah, I definitely want to do something. We want to have something to show for that. Hi. So from what your comments now, I understand that what you want to do is distribute the load towards a listener in several DMs. Is that correct? Yeah, the idea is you have one IP address, a DNS name, and then it gets phanned out with as many virtual machines as are necessary to do your load. There are a few wrinkles on that, but that's basically the basic idea. Yeah, that was the IBM approach. No, that's also the networking approach. If you use a VM to do it, you use a network, the result is the same. Using a VM to do that fan out with OVS was the IBM approach. The other approach is, I think using like BGP. Yeah, using the network fabric to fan it out, but the end result is you will have N VMs handling your load. I thought when you were showing it in the slides, I was assuming that your idea was to distribute the listeners, let's say that they have a load balancer, a VM load balancer with 10 listeners, then distribute the listeners. No, we didn't plan that. Yeah, no, we planned to have every listener that's on a load balancer available all currently, actively processing traffic. Yes, but scaled. But we could, but if that's something, you can definitely propose that and we can think about it, if that makes sense to split it up. That said, if what you want to do is distribute your listeners horizontally, you can do that just by creating one load balancer per listener, right? But then you don't have to say my P. Right, yeah. Yeah, that's definitely, yeah. You don't have high availability. Yeah, well, I mean, you have high availability in that the load, each load balancer is still highly available. It's just, yeah, like it's, yeah, it's a little different. But yeah, splitting up the listeners is one approach, but it doesn't answer for what a lot, the major use case I think. Yeah, I think, yeah, we should, we definitely need to think about splitting up listeners. That's a good idea. I mean, I think for us, the number one use case is, basically, you have a load balancer. It has one listener that needs to scale dramatically. And we need to figure out how to do that. So, definitely looking. Thank you. Yeah. You may actually be running up on, close on time anyway. I mean, we can, if that's it, we can let everybody go to lunch. And when I said I'll be around, German will be around. Yeah, we can always find us on IRC. And also, as I said, the vendors are here. I don't make them stand up, but anyway, sure. Yeah, we're looking. Sick everyone on this. It's very. Those poor souls. Thank you.