Hi, I'm Delia Passi, founder of the Women's Choice Award and former publisher of Working Mother magazine. In 2015, an estimated 560,000 deaths will be caused by cancer for those ages 45 to 64. But when left undetected and untreated, cancer could be a silent killer at any age. One of the most important decisions you'll make in this battle is the hospital you choose to fight this disease. For this reason, I am pleased to recognize this hospital for earning the Women's Choice Award for America's best hospitals for cancer care. Hospitals earn the Women's Choice Award because of their exceptional patient satisfaction ratings as reported by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, and for meeting the comprehensive standards of the American College Surgeons' Commission on Cancer. By carrying the Women's Choice Award, this hospital is also supporting a global mission to empower women to make smart healthcare choices for themselves and their families. Congratulations Winthrop University Hospital for earning the 2015 Women's Choice Award as one of America's best hospitals for cancer care.


Hi, welcome. My name is Lily Weinberg and I'm here joined by my colleague Lily and Corral and welcome to Coast to Coast, our second episode. Hey, Lily and how's it going? Hi, Lily. I'm doing good. How are you? Good. Good. Can you take a second to tell us a little bit about what Coast to Coast is about? Yep. So this is going to be our weekly deep dive into cities and we're exploring ideas and insights for how to build engaging communities in times of rapid change. So last week we had Eric Kleinberg on the show and he talked about social infrastructure and how do we design public spaces to ensure that we are keeping a physical distance but really still enhancing and maintaining the social bonds that help our community grow. This week we're talking equity. So tell us more about what and who we're talking to today. That's right. So we're going to be doing a deep dive on public space and equity today and so we're really going to be looking at what inequities does this current crisis amplify and how can we address them in the recovery. What we know, and this is nothing new, is that investments in high quality public spaces is not fairly distributed within our community. We know income, education and race are highly correlated with access to green space in the United States. What we also know is that COVID-19 has disproportionately impacted communities in color, infection, hospitalization and death rates. And with extreme economic and operational challenges facing our cities we'll look into how we ensure equity and inclusivity leads in recovery for our public spaces. So it should be a really interesting conversation. I'm excited to do this with you Lillian. And I know that this is also really important to you too. You've really pushed our time to think about equity issues. And so what are you interested in learning about today? Well I'm particularly, I mean I've heard all three of these guests before so it's great to have them on. And I think I'm particularly interested in kind of hearing which voices are missing and also like how do we really bring them into the discussion because as you've heard me say Lily, I think it's hard for people especially you know folks who are on the front lines to be engaged in this moment. They're doing their service to our country. And so I'm just really curious about how do we build ways to make sure that their voices are still being heard and they're still part of the process. Yep resident driven. All right well so I'm going to dive right in. And so first I'm going to introduce our partners for this and then we're going to introduce the panel. So we have two partners today. Reimagining the Civic Commons and the High Line Network. And so I'm going to tell you a little bit about those partners and then we'll introduce the panel. So Reimagining the Civic Commons is a national initiative to foster engagement, equity, environmental sustainability and economic development in our cities by revitalizing and connecting public spaces. It's a collaboration between NITE, JPP, Kresge and the William Penn Foundation. And the initiative aims to demonstrate how strategic investments in our civic assets can connect people of all backgrounds and create more resilient communities. We are in the chat box. We're going to link to their websites and they have fantastic tools for how practitioners can really be thinking about these issues around equity and public space. So our second partner is the High Line Network. And the High Line Network is a network of nonprofit community leaders with a purpose to share, learn and collaborate on complex processes of reimagining infrastructure as vibrant public spaces. Managed as a program of the High Line, founded by Robert Hammond, who's also a NITE public spaces fellow and funded by JPP. It's a way for peers to share and learn and explore issues of equity where they may not be able to do so on their own. I want to link to Asima, their leader's newest blog post. And they actually are doing an open call for new members. That's due by May 31. So really excited about that. And you should check out their website for that. All right.  And now I have the honor to introduce our panelists. And that's why you're here to listen to them. So we have three panelists today, Carol, Alexa and Stephen. So first I'll start with Carol. Carol Coletta is the president and CEO at the Memphis Rivers Parks Partnership. Reimagining the City of Commons was the brainchild of Carol Coletta. And of course, Carol, you are a great friend of NITE Foundation, formally the vice president of Community National Initiative. So thanks for being here, Carol. Thank you for having me. I miss you guys. I know. It's great to see you. Alexa Bush is next. She is the design director of the East Region City of Detroit. She's been a key partner with Reimagining the City of Commons. And in particular has really focused on the Fitzgerald neighborhood. And has been a great leader with that work. So, Alexa, thanks for being here. Sir, and with Harvard Graduate School of Design, he's the founder of Grayscale Collaboratives. And Stephen, we're thrilled to have you because you've really led the work around equity and equity frameworks for many of the Highline Network projects. So thanks for being here. Thank you. So let's just dive right in. There's a little bit of a delay. So we'll acknowledge that. There's a delay. We deal with these technical issues, but we'll dive right in and we'll get started. So, Carol, I'm going to start with you. Carol, you bring such an interesting national perspective. I want you to set some framing from a national perspective. Why is the Civic Commons so critical for equitable cities? And how is this amplified even more during a pandemic? Kick us off, please. Well, let me just start with a fundamental, right? Public space is free or very low cost. And it doesn't require a commercial transaction to occupy. And you can pretty much stay as long as you want with some minimum requirement for, you know, good behavior, but minimum. So and what's happened over the last couple of months is that public space, especially parks, I think has been rediscovered as the asset that it is to our communities. You know, it's one of the few places right now where people can go to get out of the house, get some relief, see other people, which is really important so as not to feel isolated.  And you almost feel like the world is normal, Lily. You know, the river's rolling by and the flowers are blooming, the trees are budding.  And that to me is what the Civic Commons ought to deliver and does deliver every day. Yeah, I mean, I agree. I mean, we've been rediscovering public spaces during a pandemic. And feeling normal is really crucial during COVID-19. So thanks for sharing that. Alexa, I'm going to jump to you. And I would love to hear from you about what you're seeing around neighborhood inequities that are amplified during this time. Sure. So we've been lucky to be part of the Civic Commons partnership. We've been working in a neighborhood in Northwest Detroit for our project and really focused on trying to bring some of the market and economic recovery to the greater neighborhoods of Detroit. You know, for us, we've been in a bit of crisis recovery mode. The city emerged from bankruptcy about five years ago. So we've sort of been trying to use public space as a really critical tool in thinking about what does equitable and inclusive neighborhood recovery look like. It can't just be a construction project and this many units and that many square feet of retail. We really have to think about it as quality of life in neighborhoods. So our streets, our parks, our gathering spaces, all the components of that fabric, we think are really critical to the work that we've been doing in Detroit. I think, you know, it's in a certain sense, we're sort of recognizing the need to really double down. I think a lot of the things that have made communities more vulnerable to the impacts of COVID-19 are the same stressors that we already were trying to take on in terms of poverty, social determinants of health, walkability, safe places to be outside. So if anything for us, I think we're just really recommitting to the commitments, the tools, the investments that we've tried to make in the public realm because it's just sort of even more apparent. One, we were seeing prior to this pandemic some of the results of that work and that investment. And two, I think it just reinforces to us the need for equity and thinking about how to bring a lot of these things, like walkability parks, they can't be seen as a luxury good. They really need to be deployed everywhere and for everyone. Yeah. So you said you're recommitting and you're doubling down right now during this time. And you said something the other day, Nate shared with me. You said, this is the new abnormal. You hate the term, it's the new normal. This is the new abnormal. But this is, we're in a pandemic. Is there anything that, tell me a little bit more, I want to understand, in a neighborhood setting, tell me a few things that you're doing that's different during this time or that you're trying to be flexible around. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I think of it the new abnormal as maybe like this phase of the pandemic. So it's not short maybe as we all had hoped it might be like this for a little while, but we do imagine that we will be able to gather and public space again sort of at the tail end of this. You know, I think what we're trying to figure out right now is really how do we connect with each other. I think for us, the planning process is also really crucial to delivering a more equitable outcome. We need those voices at the table. We're really trying to figure out how do we conduct a public process without in-person meetings. You know, I think there are opportunities like this with webinars, with Zoom, with using the internet. We know in Detroit that there's a huge issue with the digital divide. So we're trying to be really creative, crafty about what tools we can use, about, you know, could we take the idea of a public meeting and sort of blow it up and put it outside. Could we take boards and put them in places, storefronts, parks that people could visit at their leisure and get back to us, but to kind of blow up what an in-person meeting could be in time and space? We're thinking about, you know, can we, we work with neighborhood groups that we call block clubs. So they're sort of like loose informal groups of people that live on the same block. That's kind of our most basic unit that we interface with at the neighborhood level. You know, could we create engagement kits? Could we arm them with tools now that they can't meet in person? Postcards, flyers, stamps, pens, like, how can we help them to continue those bonds and connections during this time where we can't be physically together? That's been sort of the last week or two, what we've really been trying to figure out is how do we continue those conversations? How do we maintain the trust in the relationship so that we can't be together in person? There's also a call to action. I just wanted to sort of respond to the digital divide question. I think it's a call to action for cities to actually map the digital divide and invest or partner with, you know, large infrastructure investments to make sure that those are happening in the areas that aren't served. Because actually, if everyone was connected through the internet and was able to log on the way that we are today, this would actually make it potentially more inclusive because families, you know, people with families could attend meetings. They could mute or listen in when they could. They don't have to show up somewhere. They don't have to leave their kids or find care. So I think, you know, the digital divide is a major issue, but this I think should be a call to action because this potentially could connect people even more to public processes. Yeah. Steven, I want to get into, you've led a tremendous amount of work around equity frameworks and in particular with many of the really large projects with the Highline Network. Can you tell me a bit about, you know, how an organization embeds an equity framework into their work? Tell me a bit about that. Yeah, I think, well, you know, it requires a few things. I think, first of all, acknowledging our history. You know, as we all know, the United States was founded as a slave economy. You know, that's followed by 200 years of Jim Crow segregation, redlining, urban renewal, federal highway expansion, the criminalization of blackness with mass incarceration, community theft through predatory lending, all of this really negatively impacting communities of color and disproportionate ways. And we see the impacts of that now on people's health and health outcomes with COVID-19. So acknowledging that history and that the people are starting from different places and need different supports and to be engaged in different ways. I think a second thing is to really take stock in the present, you know, questioning our definitions of progress and equity, asking, you know, for whom we're working, who has the most to lose, who has the most to gain, what are the broad impacts and implications of the work we're doing. And then once we ask that question, then really finding ways to share power. Power sharing, I think, is critical. You know, recognizing that there are community organizations that are already doing this work and that are deeply rooted in communities but may lack economic and political capital. And so there's really a mutual benefit for larger organizations and projects to be coordinating and collaborating with these local entities so that they can both sort of come out better on the other end. I teach a course at Harvard called Urban Design and the Color Line. We basically work with students to try and design students to try to help them understand the relationship between cultures of racism and the sort of construction of a racial ideology in the United States to support a slave economy into geographies of racism which moves down in scale from sort of, you know, the way people think to the way people spatially organize in cities as a result of the way that we think and act. And then into infrastructures of racism, which really connects, I think, most directly to the audience here and to designers in general, because the work that we do is physical infrastructure making and remaking and reimagining. And so we are in some ways reinforcing those racial color lines, those divides in cities with the work that we do if we're not intentional about the way that we're doing that work. So this year we're teamed with the High Line Network, as you mentioned, and you described them, you know, it's a network of 23 industrial reuse projects across North America. We're working with Urban Institute and the High Line Network to develop an equitable impacts framework pilot, which is a year-long process. We're working with nine of those organizations and we're essentially going through that process of, you know, acknowledging and doing deep dive research, understanding who they're collaborating with, who might not be at the table, and helping them define an equity agenda and a set of metrics to measure their success over time. So we're about halfway through that process right now, but it's been, I think, really interesting to go through. And it's shown that while there are these sort of common histories that we all share that I sort of went through, there are also very particular contextual realities that make a generalized approach to equity not really the point. The point is to go through a very place-specific process to understand the needs there. Fascinating. And so that context really matters and, excuse me, in that muscle, I would imagine around the equity framework is incredibly important during this time. I'm going to pivot a little bit over to Carol. And I would like you to respond to what Stephen said. And in particular, I think Carol, what's been so fascinating about your tenure in Memphis is that, excuse me, is that you really started within your organization. I was really struck by how you started with equity by looking at the people that were in your organization and really leading that way. Can you tell me a little bit about that and if you have any thoughts about what Stephen said? Well, I think the context that Stephen set, because it's really valuable to begin there. And then, of course, he said, then you need to contextualize, then you need to localize. And that's what we've done here. So we really pursue equity, Lily, through a five-part, generally speaking, a five-part strategy. The first is pay an opportunity for our team. Second is deliberately programming and providing free programming, quality programming for people of mixed income and mixed age. So we work hard to achieve that in place at, you know, in place, in time. We have very aggressive MWBE, Minority and Women-Owned Business Enterprise, purchasing and contracting. We work with the community, especially with kids, to shape the future of the park. Alexa mentioned who's at the table, and that's certainly been part of the work we've done. But there's also another piece that, you know, some people would argue is beyond our remit, if you will. But the Memphis Riverfront parks that we manage are five miles of riverfront, and they are adjacent to, on the one hand, a very vibrant downtown, but on either end, and then just beyond downtown, are some of the most economically challenged neighborhoods, income challenged neighborhoods in the city. And so one of the things we've done in each project we've built is to look at those, how we connect the riverfront back into those neighborhoods in very specific and beautiful and welcoming ways. And just one more thought, recognizing that a visit to the riverfront is the only vacation that a lot of Memphians will ever get. We've continued to push a very ambitious transformation of our riverfront in terms of the design and the program. And I think we should all reject complacency around design of public space. I think that's begun to turn around a little bit in recent years, but we're far too quick to accept mediocre when it comes to design of public assets and public space. And I think that's a lot of reason they've been abandoned by people with financial options about where they get their services, if you will, that that the Civic Commons or public space provides. So to, I think we've got to go hard on design and program of these spaces, along with, let me just say, their maintenance, no reason to build if you're not going to maintain, and their staffing. Again, you look at a lot of public parks in America, they are completely unstaffed other than someone who comes around and picks up the garbage. And if we're thinking about equity, I think we've got to think about hosting.  Who's the host of this space? Who's going to make diverse people feel welcome and feel, like, feel comfortable together? Because we're not very good at that in America these days. And we have to get better at it. And I think it takes staff. Absolutely. And so you highlighted about better connecting the riverfront to, to certain communities in Memphis. And one of the interesting things from COVID-19 in Memphis is that, from my understanding is that that literally the highway that I don't know if it's called a highway, but but there are many lanes of traffic were shut down that are in front of the riverfront. Is that right? Yes, it's actually a four lane road with a median, but the the mayor very suddenly shut it down, Lily. And it it's a road that it's it fast people travel at fast speeds, because there are long stretches with no stop signs and lights. And so it's particularly fast. And it really is a barrier to the riverfront. And the mayor during this pandemic, I mean, you know, you look for bright lights somewhere, shutting down this road has completely changed the way people can access and use the riverfront and I would say it was a big equity move on the part of the mayor because it increased access and safety and comfort and welcome. We are literally seeing people in family groups picnic two feet off of on on the bluff that is high up against this the street. We're seeing people picnic two feet from where traffic used to be speeding by. So our mother's day was lovely. And so that's the kind of thing that you think, ah, what can we learn from this behavior, this experience? How do we observe right and translate design that works better for those kinds of situations? Absolutely. I mean, maybe maybe it'll be permanent. Who knows? I want to yeah. Alexa, tell us some of the lessons learned from tracking and measuring inclusive development and what the role trust plays in this? Yeah, I mean, I think trust is fundamental and it builds on a lot of themes we've been talking about. You know, I think really acknowledging the history of a place and I think it can be really easy to think about some of those events that happened as like big age history in the past, like, oh, Brown versus Board, we stopped segregating. Oh, Urban Renewal, it's a long time ago, but it's really not like that's very much the lived experience in a lot of the communities, I think that face the biggest obstacles and sort of have for lots of very valid reasons, a lot of lack that trust with, you know, nonprofits, local government units, even with each other, that one of my colleagues in Akron, Dan Rice, always talks about, you know, we move at the speed of trust, and I think that's really become a principle that we all talk about. It's really critical, I think, to do the work and to really meaningfully have people participate in the process to feel that, yeah, you're going to deliver on what you say. I think in a lot of communities that face some of these obstacles, you can see a lot of planning fatigue because it's a whole lot easier and cheaper to do a plan and a whole lot more difficult to commit to the implementation that comes behind that. So I think for us, you know, planning where we know in Detroit, we've been, our mayor has had to be very, very, like, brutal sometimes about, you know, we're going to plan here and we're going to have the resources to back up the first few years of project. I think that's really critical. I think it's taught me that, you know, just planning and then saying, okay, the first step is then to fundraise. It's kind of an unfair way to go about the process once you've gotten people to commit their time and ideas. I think going in with at least an understanding of a first project, a pilot, a commitment to something in the physical environment changing is really critical, in part because those changes take so long, right?  And I think to Carol's point, that quality of the built environment is so huge, right? I think we need to raise the bar that, you know, people deserve to have a high quality place to live regardless of their income. I think it changes the entire dynamic of the conversation when we're not asking people to settle for something that others don't have to or that we're not asking other people to make that sacrifice for. But yeah, I would say based on the outcomes we've learned, it's really been the capacity to deliver. You know, we've done a lot of short run sort of pop up tactical urbanism type installations in the run up, knowing that, you know, we in this neighborhood in Fitzgerald, we built a public park. We did it in under three years, which felt like lightning speed at a government level. But you know, to the average person, that's pretty slow. So along the way we were doing programming in a number of vacant lots that we then turned into the park. We'd done pop ups to transform our streetscapes with a nonprofit, the Better Block Foundation out of Dallas. And I think actually having people see those interim changes, even if they weren't permanent, really change the conversation to us being, you know, people who came and talked about nice stuff to people who were actually committed to doing it. And I think that actually goes a long way in rebuilding some of those relationships is to actually back up what you say you're going to do with the action that you're doing it. Absolutely. I mean, in you and Carol, both highlighted the importance of quality, quality of the public realm. And Eric Kleinberg, he was on our last episode, and he talks a lot about social infrastructure and how, you know, places as a driver of social connections. And literally during a crisis, that can be a difference of life and death. So really, really important. Last question that we're going to open up to the audience. So Stephen, building on trust, we cannot talk about physical infrastructure like you talked about before, without talking about race. And as you've shown with your work, our cities are taking different approaches very rapidly, you know, opening up streets, pivoting in different ways with shifting streets, temporary bike lanes. Who is really benefiting? I think that's a question that we need to ask, not just in this situation, but in general. And I think it's now it's now that we have an opportunity to, you know, really rethink the way that we allocate public space. It's even more important that we're thinking about this now.  There's not equal access to either quantity or quality of open space. And so, you know, the question is, how do we invest in these public infrastructures, these public goods, which will inevitably, if they're sort of successful, increase property values and costs and potentially push people out? How do we make those investments in communities that need and deserve this open space without pushing them out through gentrification and displacement? So I guess one of the questions to ask is who is the work for? You know, is it for developers? Is it to increase tax revenue for the city? Or is it for people? And you know, the high line is an example of a project that was very particularly focused on people. And in the end, what we see is that many more developers or developers in much greater ways have benefited from the space. Obviously, people still do. But the impacts and the benefits were not distributed in the way that Robert Hammond and others had envisioned and hoped with the project. So I think it's really about asking, and this is why they developed, they established the High Line Network. This was in order for them to pass these lessons forward to other projects. So it's really about, I think, anticipating the change that's going to happen from these investments and from these changes in the way we allocate public space. Anticipating that and not waiting until it's too late to capture that value and distribute that value equitably across the constituents and the stakeholders and the communities that were really aimed at serving. So, you know, it's about anticipating the inevitable in some ways. You can't stop the market and you probably wouldn't find a mayor in any city that would want to invest in public space and then not have that generate value. But then how do we capture that and anticipate it and capture that value? But you said something really simple and that's who is benefiting, asking yourself that, who is benefiting. And then I think it reiterates the importance of having some sort of an equity framework and building that muscle. And right now is a really important time to do that. So we're going to, we're going to invite Lillian to come up. Lillian has been getting questions from our audience and she's going to take over to bubble up some of the themes that we're hearing from our audience members. And remember, you can ask your questions in the Q&A or on Facebook Live. So thanks a lot. Great. Thanks, Lily. And what I would just say is because we're short on time, let's try and get some quick, rapid response questions. There's been a lot of really interesting comments that you all made and questions in the Q&A. As Lily mentioned actually, so Eric last week really talked about social infrastructure and one of the first questions we got is that as cities are closing down their streets and allowing for safe distancing while out in public, there's also been a great increase in police presence. So maybe Steven, if you could take the first one, how do we ensure that obviously, especially for communities of color, police presence does not make for a welcoming environment oftentimes and it can create some tension. So maybe Steven, do you have any thoughts on how we manage these spaces in a way where we don't, where we can create a welcoming environment and then maybe, you know, Carol, you had brought up the point about hosts. The person online asked about maybe ambassadors. What strategies come to mind real quickly in terms of using members in the community to really make sure that these spaces are welcoming and working with police, obviously, to make sure that we have a safe and welcoming environment? Yeah, I think you kind of answered the question, Lillian, with the framing of ambassadors. In a lot of up and coming or you know, more, I don't know, more high-end catering public spaces, you know, downtown markets and different things that are sort of attracted a broad variety of people. There are ambassadors that are often hired from within surrounding communities and those ambassadors are paid and I think there's an opportunity to do the same thing in neighborhoods that aren't attracting that broad and sort of, you know, upper-class user. And so I think, you know, ambassadors are one way, community policing. So definitely, you know, working with organizations that are already working with communities and already have a sense of ownership or a stake in a particular public space. But really, when you're working with these folks to pay them for their time and acknowledge the service that they're providing. Alex or Carol, any other thoughts or Yeah, I want to add on to that. You know, we experienced that very thing in terms of police presence coming down with a show of force on our riverfront that didn't materialize in the more in the eastern parts of our city. So we experienced this firsthand. But what it reminds me of and it goes back, I think, to Steven's earlier point and certainly the work that Alexa does every single day. You know, our parks exist within a system of parks. The system of parks exists within a set of systems in the city. And it is very hard. We do what we can do.  But is it enough? No, it's not enough. We know that we have to be mindful of the larger systems within which we're working and work really hard to collaborate and get on the same page with those other systems, such as our police department. And so it's a, you know, it's a reaching out and understanding that you do what you can do, not what you can't. And so I can't necessarily create economic opportunity. That's not in my remit every day, but there's certain things I can do to lay the groundwork for that. I can't necessarily create a safe city, but I can help, I can collaborate with MPD to help create the foundation for that. So it's really sort of understanding what you can influence directly, what you can influence indirectly, and then making sure you build those networks. If you're not, for instance, Alexa sits in a really nice position. But if you're, if you're not, you know, inside city hall working every day with those other systems, then, you know, how do you create those relationships to give your community a better chance at equity? Alexa, your thoughts? Just to build on that. Yeah, I mean, I think building those relationships are key. I think it even harkens back to Steven's argument about kind of who is this for. If you can be investing in a park and thinking about affordable housing and thinking about the development and actually bringing those actors to the table, I think that's when you can really start to ensure that you're managing all those systems appropriately and it takes as much trust as you're building. I think with communities it's worth investing in that set of relationships with those other actors that are also city builders with you. I did want to throw out just in response to that the question about the host. We're very much looking to do that at the grassroots level in the Fitzgerald neighborhood. That's kind of exactly what we did. We worked with block club leaders, different folks in the neighborhood and kind of gave them stipends and grants to program the park as we were building it and now as it runs in the summer. You know, I think there's ways to think about it as almost a bit of an economic development activity as well. They've often then brought connections to someone who might be catering and provides food. There's like a couple of young men who DJ these events that we do and it actually starts to build up this little ecosystem of commercial activity within the neighborhood. You know, it might broaden how you think about funding it, but I think it's worth figuring out how to sponsor hosts from the neighborhood to really also have it be something that's authentic to people who live there. That's great and that actually answers one of the other questions that was asked. Carol, did you have a quick comment? I guess wanted to jump in. I'm sorry. I was going to let it go, Steve, and you talked about who is this for and then Alexa mentioned it again. I do want to say, look, it's great. Who is this for? That's really great. Let's ask that question. But when I got to government down the street to try to get money for the work we're doing, just to say the more powerful argument almost every time is this is to create economic development. This is to create a higher tax base. This is to create. This is to generate more tourist nights. So I mean, the realistic part is like, I think you're asking the right question, but I also, at least in my experience, when you're trying to sell this politically and get more money for maintenance and operation and ambassadors and hosts, you better have some economic development story to tell. Well, Carol, I completely agree. I think you can extend that question into the economic rationale that's necessary to make these projects happen. For instance, the Highline, that's one of the sponsors for this event, the Highline got over $200 million of public investment in this park. That investment then generates now $64 million a year. So seven acres out of 30,000 acres generates $64 million a year. That's a tenth of the entire parks budget for New York City, Metropolitan. And that's pre-huts and yards. That money goes into the general fund, which is good, but it doesn't go to eat to support the parks. So it doesn't go into the parks fund to invest in parks and neighborhoods that aren't West Chelsea. It doesn't go even into a fund that invests in West Chelsea in parts of the neighborhood that are underinvested that aren't directly along that spine of the Highline. So all I'm saying is asking that question, obviously you need the economic argument. But even within that argument, there's a question about how those funds are distributed and allocated. And if they go into the general fund, then they go into a fund that is paying for stop and frisk and paying for all of these things that are actually detrimental to communities instead of being targeted to help them. So just building on that, because that is a good point. And we're going to talk more about this in this series. I mean, Alexa, you mentioned, you know, these spaces should not be luxury goods. Carol, you made the point about parks are free or low cost, but the reality is we're headed into a recession. Governments are already starting to cut budgets. And, you know, the next fiscal year is where we're going to see even a bigger impact if sales tax, retail, all of that continues to go down. So when we're trying to build collaboration or when we're trying to think about how to reinvest in the areas of the community that haven't been invested in, how do we do that when we know that typically these systems tend to sort of fight at each other and tend to try to get more of that pie, obviously, to preserve and oftentimes public spaces, arts, those are the kinds of things that the library system, there's a great question here around libraries, those are the things that usually tend to get cut. So any ideas for how do we create that shared value? How do we, I mean, I think your point is right, Carol, about the economic development argument, but are there ways for us to do this, especially or strategies right now, especially as we're heading into what feels like a very heavy downturn? Well, one of the things we've argued for in the Civic Commons work is to redefine parks, libraries, trails, et cetera, as infrastructure. Because when you think about it, you know, infrastructure is frequently the first thing you go into a recession. There's always an infrastructure bill, right? We want to put money on the street. We want to do it quickly. Let's build infrastructure. And so let's, you know, restore infrastructure. So why not these public assets that bring people together? It's just never been thought, it's never had the place and we as many arguments as we try to make. I mean, what's interesting is the same arguments don't really have to be, you know, made so many times for roads and bridges and or more lanes. I mean, for instance, so I would just say that we should, the more we can define it as infrastructure, I think the better opportunity we will have to get very much needed funds for these places that are so fundamental to community building and democracy. Thank you. Alexa, you had some thoughts? I would. I mean, I would say since I mentioned it in the beginning, when I started with the city, we were just coming out of municipal bankruptcy, the largest in the country. And I think, you know, haven't had, we're not in New York City, we do not have the budget that a lot of other major cities kind of built back up after the recession. I think what we've really learned and what our mayor has been really smart about our business community has been really smart about is because we're in such a resource constrained environment, we had to get out of that scarcity mindset of, I need this resource and you get that resource and have it be a fight to actually say the only way we're going to move forward is if we come together. So the way that we've been funding work in Detroit, both any investment we're making has really been a multi sector collaboration. The city set a number of priorities where we're committing public dollars, we're working with CDFI partners to raise corporate philanthropy, private philanthropy and we're all trying to move in the same direction. That's really been how we've been able to move forward in an incredibly resource constrained way. It does require sort of a whole different way of thinking about ego, credit sharing, who does what, sort of some cultural examinations of the different institutions, but I think the success we've seen in Detroit gives me a lot of hope that it can be possible with good leadership, I think, to actually come together and work differently when you don't, when everyone isn't in their silo but their own funds working in their own way. The crisis might be a moment to rethink the way that different sectors either work or don't work together now in the spirit of advancing a better shared outcome. Great. So I'm going to turn it over to Lily to close this off because we are at time, but just one quick last question just because I have the luxury of talking to you all. You know, I've been really worried about whose voices are really being heard and how and I think Alexa, you brought this up around engagement and figuring out ways. I mean, when we know that a lot of the communities we're talking about equity, we're talking about lower income communities of color, when we know that they're working these essential jobs or they're unemployed, you know, how do we ensure that they're, how do we know actually maybe it's the question, how do we know that they're actually involved in the conversation, that they're active, that they're demanding as well these public spaces for themselves and it's not just us advocating for them. So I would just leave you with that. I don't know if anyone has any quick thoughts on that and then turn it over to Lily to close this up. I mean, I would say it's also worth even thinking hyperlocally about who's in your network and I think the more that even as professionals, we can also think about who we interact with and talk to that it might give insight or empathy into building some of those authentic relationships with people facing other types of challenges. Thank you. Lily, you want to close this out? Well, I'm not sure. Lily, if you're there, I know we've had a little bit of connection issues. So let me just then, I think we were just going to close it out with a quick poll, just reminding folks online, if you have, there's a tons of questions in the Q&A. What we are trying to do, this is still on your show, is figure out ways of bringing those questions up. Carol, there's tons of questions around how we define leadership. Steven, there's a couple questions about examples around more specific design and equity frameworks. So I just want to make sure everybody out there listening knows that we are getting these questions. We're going to try and figure a way to get them answered and encourage everyone to please answer the poll. And then I would just say thank you to all. This has been an engaging conversation. Oh, there you are, Lily. This has been an engaging conversation around equity. And Lily, do you want to talk about what we're going to do next week? Sure, sure. Sorry about that. I had some technical issues, apologies. But I did just want to, I can't help myself. I love this conversation. I just did just want to invite our wonderful panelists to have any closing final remarks, 30 seconds, 45 seconds, anything that you want to tell our audience of practitioners to leave them with. Carol, you want to start? You know, from a practitioner standpoint, which is what I am now, I think I just want to encourage people who are in very tough and challenging times. All of us are concerned. All of us who have staff working in the field, as we do, are concerned. I've got frontline workers, right? They've been working the entire time.   But especially when this lockdown has occurred and people, they just need to know there are other people out there. And that, you know, we, there's a, there's community. So thank you for what you do. I appreciate it. And I look forward to answering any questions that anyone wants to shoot my way. Bring them all on. I'm all set. Alexa, any final thoughts? Yeah, I would just re-echo the last point I had just to think about even your own personal network and who's in it and sort of, I think we talk about mixing and we talk about equity, but to actually live it in your own network and not just think about it, for other people or in the abstract, is something good to do. Absolutely. Stephen? You know, as practitioners, the work that we do is in the public domain. And so we do interface with and work with public officials and policy makers. So I would say don't relinquish or think that you don't have agency in rethinking current policies. So, you know, as we're thinking about a post COVID, you know, situation of reinvestment in communities, you know, we really need to push for race equity criteria for federal funding, for federal grants. We need some preemptive strategies in neighborhoods for housing, you know, tax increment financing districts that are triggered when neighborhoods start to gentrify to capture that money internally for affordable housing. And right now, what we really should be doing if we're working on any projects, like in the middle of the project and it's kind of died down and we don't know we're restructuring and re-angling how we're going to finish or engage or whatever to really refocus these projects and think about them as preparing communities to have shovel ready projects for the investment that is going to be coming and to really develop a strong and clear equity agenda as a differentiator to sort of say our project is not only a shovel ready project, but it's going to have this kind of positive equity impact in communities of color, I think can begin to set neighborhoods up, set cities up, set practitioners up who are working on these projects to get the funding that will be coming no matter who gets elected, you know, in this next term, certainly going to be investment in infrastructure and to angle and be prepared to capture that money for communities that deserve it. I think that's a really important point around the federal funds and I do encourage everyone to check out Steven's op-ed. That was in Next City. Let's link to that. So listen, we are out of time. I appreciate the three of you. Thank you, Carol. Thank you, Alexa. Thank you, Steven, for joining us on this conversation around equity and public space. Next week, we will be here at the same place, the same time, 1 p.m. Eastern on Tuesday, and we're going to be looking forward. We're going to be looking at rebuilding new models for public spaces and engagement, management, and partnerships. Catherine at level and Robert Hammond will be joining us to talk about this. They're fantastic and we're excited to have you join again. So thanks a lot again. Bye, everyone. Bye.


Hey guys, welcome back to my YouTube channel. This is Daniel Rosal here in Jerusalem. So I started a thread on Reddit a couple of days ago on the AliExpress subreddit and the title of my post, I have it open, I'm gonna put it up on the screen in a second, is can we talk about Ali vendors trying to bribe users with gifts? So this is something I've just been noticing for the past, it's like at least a year now. I've been buying from AliExpress from about as long as I've been living in Israel. And the reason AliExpress is crazy popular in Israel and it's actually quite funny, if you look for products on AliExpress, you'll often see they've got Hebrew products that they've customized for Israeli customers. The reason we in Israel tend to buy disproportionately from AliExpress is because the e-commerce options in Israel are not brilliant. I mean, there are locally e-commerce stores. Amazon delivers some of their inventory here, but it tends to be very expensive in shipping. And we also have to pay more than $75, that VAT on orders that are more than 75 bucks. And stuff can get held up in customs. Israeli customs is super strict. So for a combination of reasons, the fact that Ali, Amazon hasn't really serviced Israel properly, they did do this free shipping trial, but it was discontinued when the pandemic started and no one really knows if it was intended as a one, I suspect it was a once-off thing. It doesn't really make sense for Amazon to indefinitely subsidize shipping stuff from fulfillment centers in the US over to Israel. In any event, that's why we're AliExpress, Fiends in Israel. So I've been using Ali for seven years by a bunch of electronic stuff from it and I've been getting a bunch of business cards over the course of this time. Now AliExpress vendors are quite funny. They use the word deer a lot. So when you get private messages in AliExpress from vendors, they will typically address you as deer. There's a lot of funny things about AliExpress. The fact that it doesn't really have a proper customer support mechanism is funny. If you find that kind of stuff funny, you have to dispute things with vendors and then they beg you to, it's a weird place, but that's Ali. So I've been getting business cards and the business cards typically are like, hi, deer, loved your purchase. Please follow our store at this, and they love QR codes.  Now over the last year or so, it's changed. The formula's changed. I'm getting bribes, real bribes, serious bribes from AliExpress people. And it's the same thing.  And you see there's a business card. So you say, oh, maybe this is something related to my order and you see it's actually a bribe offer. Now I started this reddit thread because I thought it was strange. Two things, I thought it was strange that I hadn't seen other people talking about it. The second thing that was strange is that I've just come back from the U.S. for a few weeks and I did a bit of purchasing over there for mostly camera related, video related accessories. And I didn't notice compared to other areas. Now I'm not in the U.S. that often, but compared to two years ago when I was last there and also ordered a few bits and pieces on Amazon, I thought there was a lot of AliExpress-like merchandise. Now what I mean by that is merchandise that's coming from Chinese vendors doesn't have a name to it, a manufacturer to it. There's no English, there's often no English user documentation or if there is, it's machine translated from Chinese and it's very, very poor quality. So that's kind of par for the course from AliExpress. It is a Chinese marketplace. For Amazon, I was kind of disappointed. And I got my first, I actually got my first bribe card from Amazon. This is my word. I don't know what else you could call these things but that's what they are there, right? It's a business card with an offer of bribe. So that's what I posted on Reddit. I was like, what's going on? Is this just me or is this happening to everybody and does AliExpress care? They're like being tempted one or two times to be like, look, if you guys actually had a customer service functionality, you might want to know that companies are, it's not, it's just like an icky feeling to buy something you paid money for. And all you really want is the product but then you pull up this business card and it's like they're trying to offer you this kind of a sketchy deal. So that was it and it's on happening on Amazon. So people said some interesting things over on the, I was going to say the big R. Has anyone ever called Reddit the big R? I don't know. Let's go on to the screen. So this is my thread here and I just started this thread a couple, ah, it's only one day go in fact, how time is flying. So I just described the typical experience of a bribe card and I explained that I got a bribe on Amazon. Now I'm actually going to reach out to Amazon customer support when I finish this video or perhaps during it because I do think they should know and I was astounded to get a bribe card from an Amazon vendor. So people, an atin, atinneko says that claims that this was a strategy first started by Taobao sellers. Now Taobao is another big Chinese marketplace and he or she says that eventually spread to wherever Chinese sellers are doing business. Their gifts are dirt cheap and the positive reviews help drive sales by lot. So that is, you know, that's kind of typically what it is. It's like, give us a five star review and we'll send you half of a selfie stick. And you're like, man, I just don't have time for this. Now I personally, and I mean this actually quite seriously I wouldn't take a bribe. I have an ethical problem with this system. So irrespective of what the quid pro quo being offered was I wouldn't do it. But yeah, it's typically for some kind of garbage or what looks very much like garbage merchandise. I'm just going to put myself down here a little bit.  That's actually a pretty cool Chrome extension. And Grain81 says this is a tactic that has been going on for a while now. However, Amazon is aware and they are cracking down on this behavior. Amazon recently suspended two of the largest Chinese sellers on Amazon for using bribery to solicit fake reviews. These are companies that do around $1 billion in sales on Amazon alone. So this is actually pretty big stuff. So I thought this was worth making a YouTube video about because we're not talking about peanuts here. When you look at some of the volumes that the major sellers are doing on a marketplace like Amazon actually pretty substantial amounts of business. So let's just see. Because this is why as I've written about, I do have a love hate relationship with Reddit. I've had some terrible experiences there but it also has a ton of niche communities like this with very interesting people that are very engaged around certain subjects. This person claims and these are just claims in China this is considered acceptable business practice. And oftentimes a business practice that's recommended to increase reviews which in turn increases sales. They consider it a win-win for customer in the business although the value proposition is unbalanced. It is simply just a difference in business culture versus what's acceptable in American culture. By the way, I don't know why everybody on Reddit always assumes everybody else on Reddit is in America. Slight pet peeve. If they plan on selling an Amazon which is based in the US and I agree they need to be compliant with American culture and business standards and ethics. Now that's actually, that is my point actually about Amazon. So on AliExpress, okay, this kind of nonsense goes on and we sort of expected to. I do think that if a Chinese vendor is going to be selling an Amazon and I'm going to be buying as a consumer from Amazon then I expect to be getting something a little bit better than nameless merchandise which comes with these bribe cards in it. Oh yeah, so then I said I was going to post my bribe card. So I'm going to take a risk here guys because I don't know, this might really annoy them but I'm going to show you a real bribe card. So I actually got this bribe card. This is my word again. I got this bribe card just before I left for the US and I decided to keep it. I was like, you know what? I'm going to photograph this thing because it's ludicrous and perhaps I'll send it to AliExpress. Perhaps I'll just post it on Twitter but I just want to show you guys what we're talking about now. Disclaimer is that I have written on the front of the bribe card when I came back from the US. I did my video shoot at sunrise in the Tayyalet in Jerusalem and I didn't have any paper handy. I do try to go paperless and sometimes I actually do kind of need paper. So I wrote, I just scribbled down the time of sunrise on the front of the bribe card but it doesn't really affect it. So it's from Hawaii and Hawaii makes Bluetooth headphones basically and that's, I bought a couple of their products over the years. This is their website, their air. They are a Hong Kong based company and they sell all this kind of stuff, you know, Bluetooth speakers and headphones and whatnot with Hawaii.hk and they sell a lot of stuff on AliExpress and I found their Bluetooth headphones to be reasonably decent. So I've ordered and reordered a couple of times. So that's what this company is and this is real. This is not something I printed. This actually came in an AliExpress container. Here we go. You know what, I'll read first and then I'm going to show you guys. So it says Hawaii. This is the front side of the business cards or the bribe card. Get a guess and it's all written in this kind of like messed up English. Get VIP promo code here. Email service at Hawaii.hk just to show that the domain is indeed the domain. Get scan QR code, get latest promo code, contact us for help, scan me. So there's two QR codes. So okay, fine. Backside of the business card is where the bribe is offered. So it says leave us five star guess gift and then it has instructions for how to get your gift in exchange for the five star review. One, send us five star screenshot. Two, if you have a new order in Hawaii, so I presume this means that you need to give a five star review on your previous purchase and buy something else. Three, send order to us, get free gift. So I think the system, I think what they mean is that you should order something from them on AliExpress, send them your order number, tell them you left a review and then you'll get your nice bribe reward. If you have any problem about product one, oh yeah, this is the other thing they do on AliExpress that if AliExpress had any integrity and I'm not sure they do, I think they probably don't, they would crack down on this. So on AliExpress when something goes wrong with something you buy, like you buy, actually I bought a accessory for the Ronin SC on AliExpress and it just doesn't work, it doesn't fit on the gimbal. So I said what you do is open a dispute. It's the stupidest way for resolving, for providing basic customer service you could possibly think of. There's no, hi, this doesn't work, contacting the marketplace, you have to dispute it and no one really knows why the renders hate it probably because they risk getting kicked off but many times they will message you saying don't dispute, please close the dispute. So they're basically trying to get you to not go through the correct channel for getting a refund on AliExpress. So you can see why I say AliExpress is a terrible marketplace because, and this is it in black and white, this is basically a major seller on AliExpress telling you not to use the normative mechanism for resolving issues on AliExpress if your headphones come not working they're saying don't do a dispute, contact us and that's just really not okay either if I were a marketplace you can't have that kind of stuff going on. So the second paragraph is if you have any problem by product, one, don't leave feedback or disputes with saying even if your stuff is terrible please don't leave us a bad review. Two, contact us should you get solutions. So I'm not claiming that this is what Hawaii does. I'm not leveling that direct claim but what I am saying is what is going on and what makes these websites so dangerous for consumers and unreliable is that if you have customers doing this stuff they're telling people basically if you buy a measuring tape and it's crap don't leave a bad review, contact us and we'll send you a little bribe and if the measuring tape comes and it doesn't pull out any measuring tape well don't contact Amazon or don't contact the marketplace let us deal with it and again it's a very deliberate calculated ploys on the one side to prevent any negative reviews don't discourage people from leaving reviews discourage people from going through the normal complained channels on the marketplace and on the other hand it's an enticement for people to leave artificially good reviews by giving them worthless enticements, bribes essentially so that's what is going on and now here we have the big reveal, the bribe card so this is a front side, a why this is literally what came from the envelope front side says a why get VIP promo code here and then this is the scroll I just told you about just to be transparent and on the back side is the bribe offer here it says a why leave us five star, get gifts send us five star screenshot just gonna make sure this guy gets in focus if you have a new order in Hawaii, that's step two step three is send order to get free gift if you have any problems about product don't leave feedback or dispute contact us, you could get solution okay now finally it's in focus I'm just gonna let you guys read that for a second or two so there you go guys, bribe cards have become a thing I think it's really crappy and I did get one from Amazon and I'm definitely not like I don't I haven't contacted their customer service enough times unfortunately some of the stuff I bought this stuff from dubious merchandise didn't work but I'm gonna let them know because I do think that marketplaces that want to sell to Western consumers and operating the West need to operate by Western general Western business standards and in normal Western business standards transparent black and white bribery and request to circumvent customer service channels is not acceptable so thank you guys for watching I'd like to get more videos from me please feel free to hit the subscribe button and if you're on Reddit do feel free to follow me or drop me a message or be in touch and thank you guys for watching


It just works apparently. Apparently, after a bazillion man hours of work, it just works. One day you'll get, also, you'll have this lot of mon hours done. Yeah. So, many, many years ago when we first started down the road of booting Fedora on ARM, we had this wonderful concept of things we needed. You needed to know things like memory address locations because the kernel had to be loaded to specific memory addresses and there's no way to report to them by anything except a hexadecimal memory location. You'd have to wrap the kernel in Macimage because that was the way it worked. And you'd have to wrap in it, RAM, FS. You would need to know different options for different forwards. So, you know, like the TI stuff would go to location 800000000. That would get 80,000 in. And then, you know, like Tigero is... I had a feeling he was just here. No, I promised not to. I hope I didn't. You had to know information about the particular system that you're booting on. You'd have to know that, oh, I need to pass this particular argument on the boot command line so that, you know, it doesn't try to bring a video because that doesn't work on this board or whatever. It was really, really messy. So you'd have like a boot.sql file. And this is a simple, very, very simple boot.sql file where you set the environment with some bootogs. Say the console is this, the root is here, root way.  And the same for the NMMFS. And then... You may get no output. It's no serial port, so... It literally doesn't work on the devices where you get telecoms being passed. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, what works on one board doesn't work on another because the one you've been working on had 512 micro RAM. This one has 256 and you're trying to work to a non-existent address. It was really, really messy. And as an end-user, you don't need to know that... You don't want to know. You shouldn't want to know and you shouldn't care. Could you summarize the situation and pre-word to that? Ah, sure. Cued embedded hacks, I'm trying to... No, no, no, no. Cued embedded nonsense hacks. Oh, nonsense. Cued embedded nonsense hacks were later. It was a mess. To get a system to boot in this old format was a complete not a mess. And then we wrote... Oh, Brennan Cowboy, who's not here, wrote a tool called Unboot Confidic, which attempted to do fancy things like detect... Oh, you're on a... It would spit out a boot SCR that was about a thousand lines long. And it attempted to detect... Oh, this is a TI system and it's this... And so it wooges these addresses... Double shell, like, it was just... It worked. It was a nice stop-gap fix. It gave you a menu, but it was really, really ugly and it was convoluted. And, you know, you'd have to run the image on everything, so you need to know, you know, the memory locations of where you're going to load your kernel because you need to tell the image, the kernel needs to go here.  Different ports needed to load the kernel in different locations. So you have to do it at install time and we're getting lots and lots of just messy things trying to deal with... And then you try to integrate, like, telling them to come to... Oh, you need to be able to detect that you're running on a panda board so you need to set up these things or you're running on a high bank and you need to use these locations It was really bad. So we kind of went for a standard. And the standard we went with was syslinux... Pixi Linux, EXT Linux, the syslinux standard for booting. The main reason was when Hasada implemented Pixi support in Uboot, they stole... Well, not stole, but they borrowed all the formatting for Pixi Linux. The config file, so they told Uboot to read a config file, they told it to be able to boot the kernel and load the new RAMFS and parcel the options without actually having to know all that detail yourself. And so we were able to extend that quite easily to boot from things other than Pixi booting. So a snippet of an EXT Linux config file is a label, a kernel, we add it to the standard, it's like a pseudo thing, FTDDir, Uboot and the way Hasada implemented it, there's an FTD option which you can use, but it loads a specific the DTD file, the device tree file. Passing the FTDDir entry says, here's where you can go find the device tree files and otherwise on Uboot it's a no. I'm on this system and this system needs a particular you know, I need this file so it will look in that directory and load the file that it needs.  From an user perspective it's much simpler and when you actually boot a system that has this defined, you get a menu and the menu at the moment is quite rudimentary, you get 1, 2, 3, 4 and by default it will boot 1 and if you want anything else you've got to hit 2 and enter or 3 and enter rather than having a hierarchy support which is something that Uboot has all that features it's just not wired up at some point we could make it even better by enabling, you know, push the hierarchy and hit enter on the kernel that you want. That's from one of my one boards boot entry, it's pretty simple. So to get all that implemented we use the existing sysboot and Vixy support and Uboot we standardize a bunch of config options so that one of the big issues was some Uboots would have fat support some would have EXT Linux they'd better read EXT file systems some would have no file systems they would you know, there would a lot of inconsistency between build to Uboot as to what it would work and what you had to do to get it to work we standardize the boot options and bingo, it worked so I'm going to boot one more Well, I've got a lot of them I just need to make it more visible I was just going to go through some of the way that it's implemented so that you can see how it's actually not really that hard I always use Venom maybe Kate sucks I normally use Venom I have everything pretty small most people look at my laptop and can't read so the first thing that I got into Uboot was this viable config destroy defaults all it does is it defines a bunch of default things we define that we want the pixie boot options and to be able to set the gateway, the host name DNS, pre-print, etc we define some pixie options we say that we want to have fdv support for the device tree because that's what everything uses today and it is awesome That's great, on 32 net So in here there's the command boot i which the AR64 uses the boot i command instead of boot z to boot for whatever reason they decided to do it slightly different we use boot z Define dhcpl the file systems we want basic network we have the pixie command we can do the command line so when a board decides to support the standard all they have to do is include this header and then they get all this stuff that we want to find there is no xms support in Uboot upstream if somebody's written it I'm not aware of it I had somebody internally to write it to write it and she was supposed to be but I need to follow up and find it out there she took a book out of it I think she just got distracted and did other stuff we would add xms if it existed on the other hand it's still pretty standard in every install I've seen that you have a separate boot I mean ultimately you have the xd boot and then run and in fact standard speed on ARM has a xfas root file system as per standard server complete by default yeah I did a pixie install in flora 22 of the server I got a xd4 boot partition xfas root you're still going to want that because you're going to have an encrypted volume you're still going to want that once the board does that we then have the distro boot command header which defines the default boot commands the way I actually ended up getting this into upstream Uboot was Steven Warren video developers somehow heard about the work I've been trying to do in standardizing it and he saw it and he's like this is awesome we need to get this everywhere and I had submitted patches and I wasn't getting feedback and he helped to push it through and get it accepted into upstream he ported all of the tag reports to user when all the Winner stuff landed upstream they supported it by default slowly the imx6 stuff is getting ported over to it it's in a bit of a mess because every vendor that puts a new imx6 board upstream in Uboot they do a lot of stuff just slightly different and so there's some ongoing work there to make things more consistent and standard I've submitted about a number of series that are quite for about 30 patches that are standardized a bunch of that stuff there's still a bit more work to do there but the imx maintainer the core maintainer is very happy to accept that those changes so we're getting there in that way it's getting there slowly and other people have taken stuff like there's an iftap coming from Sandbox that Uboot has this Sandbox feature where you can build it and run Uboot as an application on the imx6 system and it's like a testing thing they've implemented full support for it so that you can go through and test it in that environment it requires some slightly different config options to be set up if the device and a lot of this is like if the device has they said config command MMC config says we have an MMC device it then enables the ability to boot from the MMC and if it has you know SATA it enables the SATA stuff to be Ubooted and sent to SCSI there is I mean weirdly different vendors have done strange things over the years and it's taking like three or four years to try and unravel a lot of it some like Marvell's devices that have SATA they put it they implemented it as the IDE command in the high bank they implemented the SATA support as a SCSI command and some people implemented the SATA support as a SATA command they're all basically the same thing and they're mostly using the same code with some slight tweaks so that's why there's a command IDE I don't think you'd find an IDE device attached to an ARM system anyway today but it's not a V7 system V5 you will but all of those GPIO lines it's possible shush by default implemented pixie boot support so that any system that you get will at the least at the moment it's kind of a little not user friendly you can't redefine the boot order easily it's pretty much how coded you know we've done it like MMC, SATA and then pixie last and you can't really easily and again that's bit more dependent and it's a little bit more dependent ideally an ideal world would make it like a BIOS or UEFI you can quite easily redefine the boot order on the fly or you say I want to boot from USB just this one time to boot from USB you've got a right type of couple of commands it's not the most user friendly but it's getting there can you prove some of us wrong can we view UFI as a payload for probably there is a grub payload for you boot? it's been done someone's done it actually they did that in linaro originally it's like the hack to kind of figure some of the stuff out and there was a series of patches that was just recently that will now use you to build Uboot as a UFI application I would like reverse so you boot which has basic which has board support Uboot will load UFI as payload and then we have one standard that in theory has been done it's something that we as the Fedora project are doing Armwave 7 aren't really that interested Fedora's reminded me I destroyed that brain cell actually I have done this on V8 when we got the HP hardware I guess I can talk about it now we actually sort of convinced HP that they're just shipping it now they're V8 hardware I know it's V8 but they're shipping a new firmware that has UFI and then all Uboot can even switch whether you want to boot a Red Hat OS or not and that was built originally the hack was put together by me and a couple other people the point is you actually it could be wrong here because I thought this would never work out the whole trying to clean it up and just by being stubborn and pushing it I'm pretty stubborn and big headed when I want to be and ultimately having John Masters in a talk in front of a whole bunch of people admitted he was wrong and was worth it yeah it was wrong actually it's Uboot I mean it's we don't have the answer for pretty good damn quick ones it's not perfect and some of the issues that we hit we still have issues like putting Uboot onto the system and that's not anything we can control most of that is vendors are being lazy and cheap and rather than spending a dollar I'm putting a mega nice spy flash or whatever on the board we had this with the 964 consumer spec it's still not a requirement that you have I argued this for I helped write those specs I argued for weeks that there would be a requirement you have to have a spy flash hold this purpose well and there's a whole bunch of other issues like the consumer addition of the board like they don't have okay if you're using it as a consumer device to say develop a set top box or mobile phone or something like that yeah you probably don't want why necessarily on it and you don't need a serial console and stuff like that the development board aims to enable development and so the fact that they don't have pinged out and in fact the TTL is a non-standard 1.8 volt compared to every other device out there the fact that they don't have why an ethernet on board while it's a minor inconvenience when you use USB it actually makes the device a whole unusual but in this to come back to boot learning at least with the enterprise boards we made it a requirement for every system and I'm going to try to go back and do the same for the consumer stuff for this reason because we will see your boot on VA we will see this stuff happen on the other side and we do need to make sure people understand when they small, I don't care how nasty there's something that's persistent that you can keep the boot loader independent of having the OS shut down as long as they the vendor when they build a uboot they follow this it's really easy for us to support I don't think it's better if we didn't have to ship okay if we only had to ship one uboot binary ideally we don't ship any uboot binaries the vendors and it supports a standard and it just works but the reality is that most of them don't ship it one of the other interesting side effects of this when Dennis first proposed the patch just to upstream there was massive massive pushback from the upstream uboot community and it wasn't until Steven got behind it there was a bunch of factors and forwards and eventually when Steven picked it up it was finally reluctantly accepted as an optional feature now they're talking about it as a default well in the vast majority of cases when companies submit patches the general response from some of the core maintainers is why the hell are you doing that why don't you use distro support and so it's gone from something where over our dead body is that ever going to be accepted where people are going actually it generally works pretty well and Debian has adopted it as a distro well sitting on the fence we don't want to break anything that exists so we want to support the other stuff but in theory it's a really good idea and so like so Debian guys are back behind it Debian guys are full behind it they'll inherit that for Debian in theory but like I mean we pushed and were the first to actively use the multi multi SOC kernel support and that hurt us quite a bit in terms of the budget support and hanging and everything but now Debian is using that by Debian as well and so I mean was sort of led by example a whole bunch of pain as a result of that but now we're in a situation where it's amazing the number of devices where we just like all the organist stuff we just build all the organist for you guys and we have a number of people email boys or pop up on ISE and they're like hey I've got this random device in a lot of cases that I've never played or heard of and they've just gone we plug for Dorian so what would be good actually looking to the future I'm sorry to keep giving you that but I'm not that sorry when you when you if you had a I know you've got some documentation but if you have like a one reference when myself and others are going and meeting with some of these guys and we're talking mostly so but they're also saying hey we're building this embedded board in the future it's going to be really cheap but servers everyone knows where if you're building a embedded board make sure it is to this so do you have a single reference that we can find? there is a documentation file in the UBOOT sources that says how to implement it UBOOT is actually pretty good about that but realistically what you do is this is the Tegra common file which defines across the bottom so they've got at the bottom here it's not defined config SPL build so if they're not building the SPL include the config destroy defaults have it so when they're building the UBOOT.bin file include the config destroy defaults in the common post which is things that happen post loading and setting the system up here they're defining like setting up the USB keyboard and the Tegra keyboard so the AC100 all that kind of stuff some Chrome OS things so you need to they've got the memory layout which is defined on a per board basis if you're trying to standardize the memory map on VA right every vendor said not a chance of not being registered but you in here they're including one file which is the yeah so they're defining the boot device targets so they've got MMC1 MMC0 so this is defining the boot order USB so you can put a USB drive into the Tegra Pixi and then as a really last hold back the old DHCP method which we probably should just really remove that from all of this it's not so unnecessary they're including the config destroy boot command file and then so there's a boot and extra and bugs they're just taking the config extra and settings this boot end is a variable that's picked up from the destroy boot command and that's it, that's all that's needed in the board side to take it then in the specific board implementation they have a little section that says they're defining the memory settings to say the script ADD variable is this location, the Pixi file ADDIO and there's like four or five variables that have to be defined for its own work and as long as you define those variables it just works and it hides completely from the end user then the need to worry about memory addresses that was such a kind of argument about it at the start I think probably from your point of view there is section in the readme file and the uboot source and there is a number of commits where vendors are going to convert to generic uboot in a git and so they can actually go and see what various different SACs it does there's the readme.distro file and it goes through and tells you basically how the menu stuff works how to implement it what you need it's not a huge document but it's generated in my mind but it tells you most of what you need to do and all you need to do is look at one or two boards and say ok this is how they're done and it's really there's no reason not to tell people we don't build a server then go to this one if you want to support the way you do if you're not going to support UEFI and have an ACPI this should be the only other way that we will support you then I will modify the rhetoric I mean ultimately the fact of the matter is there are a number of very useful use cases in uboot whether you like it or not and so if they're going to use uboot if they can do this then it makes our life easier similar to UEFI there is very little that we need to support in this instance the ext1 is conflict file or you know like when you fix it but when you fix it is the API between the firmware and the system load and we're saying like anaconda is going to write out the conflict file as long as you read and pass that file it's going to boot and it's going to work I mean it could definitely be pretty useful I mean on the O and S stuff if you've got it plugged in you get uboot output on your screen and your screen plugged in and you get the output you can select it just like a desktop system the table of stuff is not quite there it's only outputting on the serial console but it wouldn't take much to get it there's a lot of improvements that could be done it could be made more user friendly so that you can just use arrow keys rather than typing 1, 2, or 3 depending on which boot option you've got we haven't seen this too well we want this build this card doesn't actually have anything to boot so it's going to go through and say oh we can't boot but it's trying to actually fix you boot at the moment that it's not plugged into the network so so I mean the environment is a little ugly looking here but a typical end user doesn't need to know any of that it still supports all the old but if you really want to use a boot.ser file and do all the ugly stuff we haven't removed that support we're just saying the default and the first thing it's going to try is EXT Linux and that's the way that it should be done like here we have the FTD file defined so that's what Uboot appends to the variable that's in the FTD and it loads that file so you get a tgb file loaded so like the Uboot itself the files are standardizing what they have in the name the device tree files Uboot itself knows more hardware than the file needs the user should never need to know that we tell it here we can go find them but it's really simple I probably should have put an OS on that NMC card rather than just Uboot but it's simple and straightforward and all this stuff is hidden in the years it's taken us about three years to get to the point where most things support it when we first did it I was carrying like half a dozen different boards or a dozen boards then like as old as I went and stuff got upstream I just supported it by default Tegra got ported upstream some of the I sent patches to port all the TI boards and they rejected them because some of the boards they didn't want it supporting so it better be a little more selective and that I think eventually I think I'll overcome that but something has gone from this is ugly and what are you doing and it's still from time to time so one of the big things is well you need to wrap in an upstream line you need to run the image you need to boot the wrapped kernel because then we can verify that everything is right so the average user that I'm carrying and having to actually wrap the kernel in a wrapped kernel is a confusing, convoluted extra step I know you can make the tools to it but you can't just then run the tracker I want to rebuild my NITMAPS and add a couple of extra modules because you've got to know I've got to wrap it and add these extra it adds something different from the people that use it PC or something else they're going to be like what am I doing here and ultimately we want it to be possible to the other architectures it's possible the growth there is actually a port of growth to Uboot as a Uboot application yes the problem is that the way that it is done it kind of goes into the growth binary at build time an address where it's going to load which does not work across the internal systems it could be and so we actually have the development we do have enabled the config API option which enables the growth application to work it may be relatively simple to get and maybe we could use growth but it's this was the part of the resistance this is a great standard to get to have the handle but you could then just long term look at having another video but it absolutely would look over that are still using this no use of it to load growth which then people that know even closer to what they're using amazing this is almost like a bias as opposed to growth this this this got us to the ability to run multiple kernel versions with very minimal effort without having to know the massive co-base that is growth one of the big things that's missing from what we have is command log editing so that you can you know if you need to enforce on equal zero because for some reason you need some SELinux issues that is preventing you from booting you have to put the sd card into a different system and edit the file and do it it doesn't currently have we'll boot the last video it doesn't look well when you add the fruit which was what I was about to say I mean if we had growth that problem just goes white I killed the well it doesn't just mean but I strongly encourage the demise of the global new boot project in Lenaro just from a resourcing point of view because we had that or some of them but there was still a lot of interest in and that kind of do exist probably wouldn't be a lot to get that yeah it's definitely an option yeah the good way and stuff that we support today is a million times better than what we were looking at two years ago we just say now is even possible then there's a slowly getting on board with it and upstream's getting on board with it and they kind of you know when I first submitted I submitted the first patches and had copyright Red Hat people were kind of like oh my god it's the end of the world and some people were like Red Hat's contributing to your boot and then and then now you know is the maintainer or when a tree so there's quite a lot of Red Hat contribution going on into your boot I mean ultimately even if we don't get growth support this is still needed it's not it's not you just maybe add something to it if anyone has any interest there's a bunch of boards that still need boarding and send patches upstream do you have a list of what you did Chromebook and the Chromebook's a special base of panel that's not a beginner's I didn't say it wasn't a panel we have most of we have all the bits in place to basically a whole recipe to enable us to get to help that sounds very interesting I'm going to ask another question I'm going to ask another question the new Chromebook was very stuck it was stuck on the back yeah so I thought you were saying the Yubu the Yubu comes upstream the hard bit is getting Yubu into the right location so it can be loaded and to make the best user experience you need to pop it open and take the screw and completely rewrite the spike latch but there is ways to do that the take-off hardware it sort of locks down with the ChromeOS bootloader but they had in the SPR flash there is an area that you can write a quote unquote legacy bootloader to but when you write that there you take your Yubu you wrap it in this stuff that they come into a I think it's a call boot file system and then you're essentially dv that call boot file system wrapped Yubu bootloader into the SPR flash it's flash address once you've got that you hit some control L um which then enables you to boot fedora and what you've done but you have to push the control L every second boot there's another setting for that and actually it's easy to do it's easy to do it's easy to do it's easy to do it's easy to do I think there is possibly those settings hidden somewhere it's not very well documented at all I mean it took us some time to get out of various different people that there was this memory area that was really right that we were able to write into and that you don't just write the Yubu into there but basically have to wrap the Yubu with this stuff so we know all the steps we don't necessarily know the exact details of the steps to make it easy so essentially the plan is to have a script or even ship a free package image that people can just flash in at which point you've got to show them a USB stick or an SD card and probably the internal NMC although I haven't even gone as far as looking at that and just with Fedora right and with all the Tegra K4 the Tegra K1 series and newer chipsets so there's basically two devices I think it's a Tegra K1 Tegra 124 there's just a few other numbers that I don't remember but I think if anything larger than the 124 shipped with the Mubo with the decent graphics or celery it's now fully supported in the Mubo driver and it's a firmware box that you need now up to 21X firmware and there is a patch series that's even the VRA next and that's it and that should give us fully accelerated known shell on a Tegra K1 yeah yeah and a lot of people when you're putting yourself up it's just now a matter of working out all that little bit of road to hell allowing you to call in engine stuff and getting that process to a stage where we know it works and we can do it reliably because hitting control in the short term while we provide people to tell us what if there's a command that we can run in and forget what Google calls it as a call boot or whatever they punish this as a compiler and how it works anyway it will get other than control our operation when we boot you should get an extremely usable really nice with our analysis and it's really fun to keep on finding out whether I'm on a Chromebox so really and the thing is the demo report which is a Tegra K132 which is a day out 64 is pretty compatible with the K1124 32 bit so in theory once like in theory it's possible to take a standard for a manufacturer to take their current shipping wire from Chromebox and talk out 32 bit ship for a 64 bit ship and that wouldn't be more awesome but I've not seen one of those on market yet I've not seen any announcement about but there's no reason why it couldn't happen yet one thing that just occurred to me is that these vendors aren't having some recovery tool and I haven't looked at that particular system but if there is some kind of downloaded recovery tool that's going to be the thing that might never want magic address code to reset for Google in the nose of the Tegra the recovery tool is Tegra RCM it's fully open source and packaged through Fedora but they also think you're just being recovering making some stuff like that they don't have anything else to make this some long the issue is using the what is it trust the platform trust the execution ground no trust in the technology anyway basically the thing that the vendors want to enforce the ERM stuff the trusted thermo yeah that's what I meant the trusted thermo is mainly on those boards and so they're essentially locked down a mobile platform yeah but and I mean like the the excellent way of dealing with that the unlocking of that lock down is the whole take out the board and doing some things to it and the video was nice enough that they enabled this area rival flash to boot the legacy it's exactly the same the boot loader stuff the table arm for our books is exactly the same as on the x86 ones it uses the same depth charge payload and it has the same rewrite legacy area on the x86 the rewrite legacy they put a C bias bias in there so that you can just go boot the next distro but they left that completely empty and I mean it's enabled quite sorry yes I have one more question are you comfortable or are you looking for other complex space there and just I'm sure in your analysis of memory references are there any other things other than I have to know the capability of personally doing that how do you change it from what we mean we can do we can land in my office for a couple hours that's all that's all nice work Dennis, thank you very much