Hello everybody if it's Wednesday and it's noon it must mean I'm going away with my wife and hence need to do this show quick and early and It's time for some more hammer weekly. So Tyler, what's up, buddy? How you doing? You got just a guy here with you for a quick show. That's right I brought in the expert on doing quick shows We've got Tyler. It's the middle of the day. The Sun is out. It's a bright beautiful day and Boy, we've got nothing but exciting stuff today.  It sounds cooler On us and we can't not talk about that Tom will be joining us in just a few moments. He's late and I'm not waiting So here we go. All right, so start off right away new battle scroll galay Can't be more excited about this This is everything I wanted almost like there's a few other little things that are missing but for the most part This is this is a solid a work I would even say a plus we're still in the right cat like all the changes I asked for are more or less here. We're doing the right things. We're changing war scrolls We're changing rules that are busted. We're getting things fixed The hunt is dead Long live battle scroll. Okay, so here we are. We're back to good battle scrolls like our December update So yeah, good stuff Big changes. I'm just gonna roll through them and then Tyler. I want your hot takes. Okay Stormdrake guard no more moving in the hero phase Exactly how it always should have been why did this unit just randomly move in the hero phase and charge in the hero phase with silly Yeah, when you can translocate them and then move in the hero phase And then and then have them breathe for free and then also charge and and and yeah So it's a hat on a hat. It made him impossible to point I just want big cool dragons that are like cool models that act like warhammer models And I'm fine with that and this will eventually let them actually hit a reasonable points value Whatever that happens to be which is good Thunderbolt volley you can no longer do it on a reinforced unit. So no You know large packs of Adjudicators or no large packs of long strikes great good Positive change. I would also point out the same change should be applied to Marathi in the bow snakes My bow snakes. Yep The the Marathi's command ability should have the exact same thing for shooting They that is one missing here. They didn't do that. That's one of the few missing items That's okay. I think I think doc is gonna have a lot of other incentives to not just play Marathi in the bow snakes But still oh, yeah The living city change great. You can't just like show up nine inches away and then move your whole move toward them great good Basically still keeping its nine inch bubble. So great fantastic positive change Seraphon the coalesce change This is one of the ones that was like kind of little head scratchy to me because only Soros I'm gonna call him Kroger because it makes me laugh and monsters get it now No more skanks your heroes your little skinky do heroes and your little skanks and skank type things don't get it Fine, I'm not sure it's actually gonna make much of a difference on many of the Thunder lizard lists Which pretend to run heavy bestill it on and show the gods that kind of stuff, but it's something I guess we'll see whether or not it's enough it might be like the weakest ones Totally it's seraphon. They're supposed to be able to you know get out scotch-free for the most part Yeah, that that thick skin is just as good at resisting nerfs as it is damaged. Yes. Yeah, sorry Okay so Chaos their changes leads in the first prince bellicor lost his ward save so cool stuff The point changes for slanesh. This is actually I'm gonna leave these to the side for a moment I'm very excited about it, but it's gonna come as part of our points change discussion Later on in the general's handbook. This is actually just a cleanup because the printed book Has wrong numbers in it for a couple armies. The PDF is correct. So just that kind of stuff Blades of corn the long the long requested change years in the making is here No longer does your blood tithe pool dump when you use an ability? Goodness sakes.  So hi Tom. Hey, are are we able to double dip on blood tithe? For the non summon I believe technically right now you can because they didn't add text to stop that summoning I believe has in the text has a thing that says you can't summon more than one unit around But the like spend two points to do this thing and five points to do this thing or whatever if you had seven You can at the moment double dip one no no and actually it says once per round you can do this is the language of it The trick is in this it says remove this text Right, and they only cut this in there. It says once per round do this Probably you're right. I don't know. I don't yeah the summoning has the once per round hard restriction I know that right so right Yeah, so that's in the app. Let me say it this way it says I'm pretty sure in the app it says like once per round is this is the like the starting parent the parent text Yes, the parents text. Yeah. Yes. So if if that's meant to apply to all then yes, we're good to go I which I need to read it. I'll be honest. I didn't have a chance to go dig into it So if that's true, I think that's good I knew the summoning had a once cap on it which I'm pretty sure that it happens in the hero phase because all of these are happening in the hero phase There's a start of the hero phase thing they specifically create an exception in the text for the the other one for the Later one for the summon one to the unbind Okay, well what I was to say is what's fascinating about that is that if the summon is at the start of the hero phase That means that you can summon and then move, right? I I mean I do I don't remember every rule from the other time. No, no, it's fine It's one of the answer that you have the same app. We do no Generally, you're not generally no like I mean if they don't have it like look if it were to be missing There's no way you would actually use that because you know you don't summon and move It's just a general flat rule Right like look you can you can be like If you summon in general things don't give then get to move like we know this is the rule They write into everything if they left it off here It would be obviously a mistake and if you tried to corner shoot that obvious mistake, you're a bad person Instantaneously, yeah, it's like teleporting and moving. You're just a bad person if you used it correct exactly That's why I'm a bad person and Constantino said no the summon is at the end of the movement phase. Okay. Oh, it is, okay Cool. All right, let's keep moving flesh eater courts. Everybody gets their ward now You don't need to have a hero nearby good stuff great good good quality life change. I'd be fine with most death stuff working this way So and Constantino's is saying it doesn't say you can do it once so we'll have to we got a little show down here Hmm Maybe the Ossiarch Bone Reapers Again a very very positive change the Immortus guard and then Acropolis stalkers can both now your big boys your big choppy boys Can now be battle line if they are mortisans If you have a Mortis in general, sorry Fantastic great a plus love those big dudes love that they can now get on in there They've got some other positive things happening with them given their base size and all of that In in the GHB so good stuff there Now we come to some real exciting ones In my mind grand alliance destruction That's right. We got we got good changes for everybody except iron jaws, which is fine iron jaws Don't need anything in fact They might have needed a little bit of a nerf that they they skate it out here They're probably the other ones who who's skated from a nerf here who maybe should have had one Yes, thank you strength hammer yeah, Vince gonna be a quick show today got a hard stop Tom Let's get as granular as possible into the nonsense. Thank you Thank you Chuck for pointing out that the unreasonable is my co-hosts grinning blades Not visible to enemy models more than 12 inches away fantastic change cool and then The bone split is it's just sixes or double taps across the army. Thank you. No more men unit size Wonderful change Beautiful beautiful change big stab us back on the menu can now sticks to double tap Why wasn't this how it was written originally? I don't know but here we are these are and then gloom spike gets oh so many exciting things Goblins can rally on a four up in the light of the moon. That's probably too good. That should be a five up I'm just gonna say that that's too much I I generally think there shouldn't be any rallying on a four up in the game by the way This is just a general rule. We'll talk about that later on like we shouldn't be doing rallying on a four up in this game That's too much rallying But I'm George Marcellus and out of tweet with a little photo Like like rallying nine bow snakes or something nine snakes and she had like eight out of nine four ups, right? and You know like again, but but I'm okay with it for goblins of it If anybody would break the rule then it's goblin hordes, right? So fine I mean, it's it's literally gonna feel like the shrine and you're gonna get this gonna feel like gun bad Now like on that bad if you'll remember it was the in Warhammer Online It was the dungeon where all the goblins just continue to pour out like you just keep drawing aggro And they would be unending because of the other rule of age Yes, correct. Well one more before we get there Which is moonlit hide which you get plus one to save for your trolls when they're then they're in the belly of the bad moon Cool change good They're supposed to be your tough tough boys and they weren't really as tough as they should have been So this is a positive change and then yes the bad moon loon shrine effigy of the bad moon Gloom spike gets units are affected by the light of the bad moon while they are holy within 12 inches this terrain feature and There was much rejoicing Because that means you actually have an allegiance ability in round one How exciting Obviously, we hope that fall will bring us a gloom spike gets book update. We have two destruction tomes coming So we're either not getting giants or not getting ogres or not getting gets Place your bet now my gamble my bet is on ogres and gets one what I mean We'll see okay And then yes Howard Hoven said don't forget the battle line hobgrod bit. Yes I they you can now also make your your little hobgrods battle line one unit of them for every one unit of gut rip as you have so cool Good stuff all around for the for the forces. I think destruction was the big winner in my mind for this It shows how much help destruction needed But this is great. I cannot praise this enough There's a couple of misses like I said Maratheon the bow snake should have the same restriction as thunderbolt lolly Maybe iron jaws needed a little touch there as well But really this is doing what we've been saying on this show forever Change the war scrolls change the rules fix the things that are broken buff the things that don't work And we did it Yeah, yeah There's some also some secondary effects for gloom spikes that are really awesome. Dave points this out in chat Is that uh in the light of bad moon your wizards are all plus one Yeah, and so actually it gives you functionally arcane terrain near your terrain Yeah, which moves like some of your your spider drops to like plus two to cast which is huge It's great. It is just such a positive change for this army Um, frankly by the way, whenever they get their new book whenever the gets be gets in their new book This should just be how the new book the shrine works And then also fix maybe that the moon that it works in a slightly different not total jank way as well, right? Like let's we can do both Yeah So at any rate, um good stuff Uh fantastic changes Round of applause. Thank you to matt Uh, who's the new lead? He had he he's interviewed in the in the Article about it. Uh, I'm glad to see that You know all the feedback and stuff that's been given was well taken. I like these changes. These were all positive Yeah, great work Like I I have nothing but praise for this and this is how these kinds of things should be addressed so Yep, okay Awesome stuff folks. Let's get into it. Here we go with the I like these are going to herald a lot of changes, but we've got to see these changes into the world they live in Right. It's it's not just these armies and units. They don't exist in the void Uh, of course they exist in a meta and tom tyler That meta It just changed the world is changing All of it all of it's new the world we live in Yeah, yep So Uh Okay New general's handbook 2022 to 2023 season one. I'm gonna get this out of the way right right Right out of the gate. Okay, which is I Do not want this same level of change that was in this book Showing up in whatever book we're getting in december Yes Okay, do we all agree with that? percent This is a big set of changes This is a really doing a lot with the meta and how units play and I have no problem with it Okay, as it exists here This kind of thing should not be on a six month cycle. This is a year cycle at best And even that is going to be hard for some people Okay So I what I would like to see in the season two is maybe like some new battle plans This is still the same battle pack, but maybe here's some additional battle plans and uh, you know Here's some other ways to play in this current season in gillette, right? Like here's a neat triumphant treachery thing or here's a multiplayer thing or whatever that would be great Right continue on all the core things. We have very minor stuff in an alternate play methods If that's what comes in december in season two Then i'm happy and that's great and we're doing all the best things with these two ghbs year and they're delivering value If we show up with the ghb That's a completely new battle pack that takes all this and throws it in the bin and we start over fresh again Way too fast. That is breakneck Okay Right do we all agree? Agreed I I've long said that six months is too fast. Yeah for for this level of change. Yeah, right. That's the key I mean, I would even say well Yeah, like I said the the thing to do would be to provide alternate play methods. Give us a cool multiplayer pack in the fall We're still missing that. Where is that? Give us a teams pack Give us some give us a triumphant treachery update, right that kind of stuff. That's value All right, that's what we if it were me We would get a sweeping ghb in the summer and in in december you'd get a sweeping teams pack Right Oh, the other important. Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree I didn't mention it But the only thing that other thing with with just real quick on galay with the battle scroll is the hunt is dead There's no more hunt bonus points and good I kind of mentioned it offhand but that that when I say the hunt is dead I mean, there's no more like bonus points and all that so Okay, help murder it at adepticon. I can only hope so From hell's heart, I stab at the okay, so The game is still the same but what about that what I mean is like, you know, this is this is still the same game This is you roll a hammer. You're still rolling dice. You're still moving still phases are all still the same That like at broad strokes a lot of this is still the same, but from a meta perspective This is going to feel very different in how the units interact and and it's going to undercut a lot of your expectations Um There this is very driven by the narrative. So we've moved from tondia southwest into galay and Now we're in this tunnel land and so a lot of the battle plans get driven by this like everybody's moving underground They're in these big tunnels and stuff like that Uh, this does change some of the fundamentals of unit quality Yeah, right Um for those who aren't familiar with the battle pack thing or haven't talked to If you've missed the shows where we've talked about this in the past, keep in mind Things like the battle plans and the battle tactics and the grand strategies These are derivative of the battle pack You can use any of different battle packs. For example season of war thondia has its own battle pack Right and has its own derivative all of that. So this is a new battle pack all the old ghb Corp italians battle tactics. Those are all gone monster season is over Getting bonus victory points because you killed a monster gone making your monster fight at the top of its profile gone, right? All that stuff is gone Okay all right So This seems to want to point you toward an infantry meta However, just as last year it was the monster meta. I'm putting hard finger quotes on that That may not be how things work out again. Okay Yeah, uh And overall it is an interesting set of rules with some very welcome quality of life changes But some big question marks come along with this as we'll get into um so Gentlemen your overview items anything else I missed here anything else you want to add to this tyler hit me first Uh, I mean just at a high level. So clearly they're trying to go for once again a bit of a yin yang orientation, right? And so the question will be how well balanced is that going to end up? uh, where the yin is the overall express design intent of meta more models more wounds then the yang is your Damage dealers bounty hunters core battalion double damage your monsters that are now having to free reign on monstrous rampage This really helps your sort of mid-sized infantry, especially 32 mils 40 mils 50 mils mid-sized elite infantry and the damage that they can deal so We will see I've had a hard time reading this on paper And all of this relates to the battle plans. I think it's intriguing I'm just not sure yet whether the balance there is there in terms of what they're what they're hoping for And so everybody understands we're going to dig into what we see as the consequences of this like we're not going to There's been plenty of shows that have talked about just what are the rules We're going to cover them, but we're really going to focus on like the data synthesis here try to put this together What does this actually mean? What are your the incentives? What's the analysis? That's going to be our focus in this show So we're going to dig into this folks Uh, okay, tom what about you? I'm excited Like that's all I got like I uh, I'm both excited and terrified because there's so many variables moving That um like this really is a new game And lists are completely different And I need to I need to like internalize the data and I'm still in the process of doing that Before I I really feel comfortable like saying this is the new king or this is you know yada yada and in fact, I think that um It feels like this may even be too big of a set of changes just in general I understand like that's my gut Is that in general even like let alone six months Just per year this seems like way like such a big change It's big. Yeah, it's big. No doubt. So let's let's actually get into what these are So let's talk about the battle pack and and as ghost button pointed out Yes, you can you can play under any battle pack like you don't have to use this new battle pack If you don't like all this change you can just keep using the core rules battle pack that's presented in the book And play with those grand strats and and battle plans and stuff like that, which by the way I'm not opposed to like it's perfectly fine way to go Okay Um, all right the battle pack Uh with one of the best pieces of art they've ever had in the history of of warhammer here, uh All of this initial stuff is still the same as what you experienced in the last ghb By that what I mean is we've had no fundamental changes to you know the points limit unit limitations Still one to six for leaders and three battle lines and four zero to four behemoths and so on the faction and battlefield roles and battalions The allied units and your army roster and your pitched battle Battle plans like the battle plans themselves are different But the way you pick them the way you decide who goes first the way you deploy terrain All of that is still the same Yes Okay Same as the last battle pack. None of that has changed Okay Let's get to the special rules like i'm not gonna waste time on stuff. That's exactly the same. It's all the same It's what you think it is standard match play stuff We have these three core new rules that came in here and we're going to go through them quickly Friendly battle line units that have a wounds characteristic of four or less and do not have mounts So four wounds are less and no mounts are galatian veterans Okay Or gvs as we will call them very frequently in this presentation. I've heard galley vets a lot I've heard gelato veterans lots of fun things going on. I'm just gonna say gvs At the start of each battle round after each battle round Not just the third like seismic shift in the last battle pack start of each battle round after the players have determined Who will take the first turn? The player who will take the second turn can pick one objective on the battlefield to be the proving ground until the end of that battle round The same objective can't be picked as the proving ground more than once per battle. So you burn it once you pick it it's done and Only one objective can be marked as the proving ground at any one time Only models with the galatian veterans keyword can contest an objective marked as the proving ground Okay, so effectively it's obseq of a kind for all your galatian veterans Person who goes second gets to pick an objective and say only these gv units can claim that thing So if I have three mega gargants standing on a point counting a 60 Right, and you have five dumb dumps who happen to be galley vets. They will steal the point They will take they can test the other guys don't Okay all right And then the bonds of battle which feels like it should be a core rule change, but hey here we are When a model with the galatian veterans unit makes an attack with a melee weapon You can target an enemy unit within a half inch of another model from that galatian veterans unit instead of using the weapons range characteristic If you do so the attacking model must be within half inch of another model from its own unit that is within half inch of the target effectively, it's 40k fighting um and The basically your In simplest terms your big guys with one inch reach so 32 mil 40 mil 50 mil base people Who hated fighting in two ranks because they just didn't get to attack can now fight normally Mm-hmm. Yeah, yes Feels good. It's very fast I had to sort of subconsciously recalibrate pattern recognition in terms of how many One could get on the pile in I had that up just because you know, it's like you're not you've got six however many years of Not thinking about a back right getting in. Oh, yeah only like two three guys are gonna be able to touch me Nope seven. She's like, whoa That was interesting the other day. Yeah So Let's talk about what we I want to walk this through in order everyone. Uh, by the way lockjaw the show is just early today. Yes Uh, here we go. Let's let's let's do this in order. Okay. So those are the three rules before we get into We're gonna talk consequences of that in a moment. Okay But first I want to set our universe. Who are these Galatian veterans? Who are the gvs in our neighborhood? Okay Here is the list. This list is people who either are or could be because they can become battle line Uh Galatian veterans Okay So This is the list in chaos Death and destruction. We're gonna come back to this list and talk about our big winners And big losers. There are there are some faux show And then here is your order list order has as much almost as the the other three armies combined, you know Okay All right, so Lots of potential galatian veterans. That is the key here, right? Uh, because really a lot of infantry in this game with four wounds or less Can be either are or can become battle line under certain circumstances Right So we have uh a lot of different potential here All right, by the way, everyone watching hit like for gelato veterans, uh, or whatever just like for the show Don't forget to hit like it helps other people find it. So Uh, yes, elect man says hot gvs and your grand alliance looking for a good time. That's right. That's what these these folks are Okay, so this is our universe of who could be these things Yeah all right Now Let's talk about the consequences of the three rules we read there and what it seems to be telling us to do Okay, number one. This is a compulsory thing This isn't optional Right. What I mean by that is if you've got a battle line unit and it meets the requirements i.e. four wins or less and not not mounted It's Galatian veteran. You don't have a choice in that matter It just is sorry I couldn't help myself. Sorry. It's all right. This is the the redistribution of veteran status If you control if in your army You can control whether the unit is battle line or not Then you can control its gv status. Yep So something being battle line if has a really powerful button You're going to be able to hit in your list building In determining are these things gvs or not? Right and sometimes you are not going to want to hit that button. Absolutely. Absolutely, right. Yep The proving ground mechanic as well as some of the battle tactics later Seems to indicate like if I just if this battle pack was just those three rules Yeah, okay Yep It would really seem to be pointing to the fact that they want you to take a lot of these Lots of infantry lots of these guys right lots of these four wounded or less Unmounted people. Yep Okay I would argue however that the first three rules actually benefit monstrous infantry and 32 mil heavy infantry mortar Almost just because of that last like battle bonds thing, which by the way, that should just never go away It'll be really sad if people are super excited about those things And then that that rule just goes away so Let's just do that Because they now have a better ability to fight and maximize their actual damage potential. Yep. Okay Now we'll get into who is good galley vets and not in a later slide. Don't worry. It's coming But we've got it. We've got to look at the whole picture of the thing before we get into that. Okay but Relevantly here that's important is they're clearly pushing us toward Uh infantry, but there's also a heavy incentive on these bigger infantry bases These monstrous infantry they're they're they're absolutely in this conversation. So we're not just talking about like one wound horde dudes That's important Okay Anything I miss and oh, yeah access to gvs is not equal across the armies not even close Some have a ton and it's like almost extremely compulsory that your battle line are going to be that Some can dodge it completely and take zero Like very easily and in fact their default lists might have zero So it's it is very yin yang on this All right anything I missed here gentlemen I'm pretty good to me. Okay. Okay. So this is where we stand right now, but of course this isn't all the rules Right, right because there are more rules Let's keep going So we have two additional things here We have the gaze of gur a spell with a casting value of seven so a relatively tough cast And a range of 12 inches you get to pick one enemy unit with an range invisible to cast her Um when determining a number of models in that enemy unit that are contesting the objective Your opponent must have that number rounding down So it is a sap of the unit's count on contesting an objective You have a realm command that I'm not going to read because it's basically worthless Um, it will occur one in every hundred games. Some expert player will use it to win in like round five of something Because they remember it existed But otherwise it does nothing Uh, and then the these two core battalions Expert conquers and bounty hunters. So so hunters the heartlands and alpha beast back wherever they're gone And they're replaced by these and these are a big deal We'll talk about the implications these two in a lot in just a moment But to get out what the rules are Galatian veteran units only an expert conquers Each model in this battalion count says three models for the purposes of contesting objectives Whoa Okay So that's big that's big objective capture on Galatian veterans up to three units can go in it requires two Must be gv's bounty hunters If the target of an attack made with a melee weapon melee only By a model in this battalion is a Galatian veterans unit add one to the damage characteristic of that attack Whoo, okay Everybody's more channel buffed fighting gv's Okay, let's talk consequences of all of this. Yep Because this is this is big this to me these two battalions are the most impactful Part of this entire rule set and they make it the hardest to read and predict what's good and what's not Yep, that's the yin yang of it. Yeah. Yep. Okay So the realm spell and the realm command just to get this out of the way The realm spell is fine It's short range and will sometimes allow you to take an objective by walking standing retreating It basically gives you incentive not to fight Because you sap a unit so you know it's at half strength and then you walk on with your dudes and auto take the objective Cool, fine Where there's a standing FAQ that that needs to be sent in as to how it interacts with single heroes monsters mega gargants Like does the one mega gargant count as zero mega gargants now and hence contribute none of his 20 Does the one hero who counts as two now count as zero because it does say rounding down So hence they don't contribute. They're two. They only contribute one Like what happens there? So it's a mess. Yeah It needs it needs clarification with how it works with those those alternative capture people basically anybody who has an alternative count capture It needs to to happen there um Single figures with that I should say And the realm command is near useless. So who cares? All right, let's talk about these core battalions Just as with the previous generals handbook, you can't take these more than once their bonuses are massive This is the death of the one drop Like one drop battle ridge has been the go to For most of 3.0 so far And clearly the way that they've decided to fix that is to make two other battalions that are so good That don't have the unified that you feel Largely compelled to put them in your force now. I still still there'll still be one drop around people will still take it And we'll talk about that as counterplay later on But this is the death in my mind of one drop being the majority take Okay, not completely. It's not like you're not going to see it. You will see it But right now battle red is like head and shoulders. It is easily the majority battalion take It will not be that After this ghp I don't think proving well proving ground. I've had a hard time reading so far in the initial six or seven games I don't think it's going to be enough on its own incentivize low drops What might be in some instances with some builds are some battle tactics and some battle plans Which we can get into later particularly with alpha bunkering alpha blocking strategies and some of these battle plans Yep Yeah, there is definitely still like it's interesting because the one drop is still going to be in the discussion Yep, right. It absolutely will and you will still see one drop armies I'm just saying it won't be the only sort of like this is the good way to go quote unquote Everyone is excited. Like I don't this is the part where I have to be a parade ranger. Okay Um, and I have to say everyone's excited about what this means for their troops like I've seen so many people like oh my sweet troop can now fight with two people because of you know, battle brothers bond of battle brothers or whatever or You know in bounty hunters my these troops are going to be amazing or whatever whatever and I'm like Oh sweet sweet summer child Yeah, I'm like your bad troop got slightly better, but the good troop got great Okay, like this rising tide is going to lift all boats Now that doesn't mean it will equally lift all boats There is going to be inequity in how this is distributed, but they're certainly the rich Are often going to get richer here. Yeah, okay There are a lot of terrible units that these rules alone will be like it went from terrible to great You're not gonna move from two to nine very often But what I'll say is this like I think you'll see an inordinate increase actually in cavalry units Because in general cavalry units had more attacks than like base troops Yeah, sure And so when you're increasing all of those attacks by one including all the mount damage Suddenly some of the math really moves on some of those units Well, like this is what's interesting because it is definitely It's definitely it's going to hit a lot of units differently and we'll bust into this because you're making a good point, Tom Cavalry units in general just got really interesting for a lot of different reasons Even though like we haven't mentioned a thing about them yet Right, right like they don't benefit from any galley vets largely They didn't care most of the time about things like bonds of the battle brother bonds anyways Because they weren't generally fighting in two ranks yet. They usually came in a lot of calf comes in fives, right? Right And so now everybody gets to attack and Uh and oftentimes against gvs are going to be a plus one damage, right? And and and are not gvs themselves So like there's going to be a lot to unpack here not just in what the words say and that's why I want to focus That's why we're focusing on the analysis today, right? Yeah. Yeah, because it's not just in what the words say it's in what the the the What then happens what are the results of that right and and things like cav are going to get wildly affected by this In their value even though not a not a word for all intents and purposes Has been mentioned about them yet right Okay Like and realistically cav like even frontage changes, right? Because now you can basically go in with two models No, technically you could go in with one model touching and get all five models attack Well, you remember they're not galley vets. They don't get the battle brother bond thing Uh, oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right interesting. That's what I'm saying They largely didn't have to care though because with cav you usually in fives you had Coherency you're usually running five across in some way, right? That's what I'm saying Yeah, they dodge these rules But it didn't matter. Yes, you're not going to like a three two formation or something like that You don't get the battle bronze But okay But again regardless the fact they benefit from none of this their value Still actually changes Yeah That's most time. They're also high mobility, which is really important. Uh, yes. Yes Okay um We're gonna break these down battalion by battalion Currin you seem very concerned about this, but I I'm not worried about lrl honestly there I think they're like an okay out of this. I'm not sure this is going to make all the strong stronger I think that some of the rich will get richer, but you'll see how we break into this I think in general this hurts lrl because they don't have an option But to have gv units, right like most of the time for their wardens Yeah, I think some of the rich are going to get richer I think some of the medium are going to go up I think some of the poor were helped a lot more by what just happened in the battle scrolled and by anything here Okay, yep expert conquerors. Let's get into the full first battalion. Okay which is Galatian veterans only And Here is my read on expert conquerors The best expert conquerors are those units That are gv, but exceptionally tough Hard to remove or easy to restore The other high quality candidates are those that are highly mobile Or can ambush or are the deck chair ranged guys who want to just like sit in the back They never need to move. They're going to hold objective in your territory Uh, we'll talk about fire slayers. I don't think that's true current. I don't think tom agrees with you on that Uh, that that fire slayers are screwed in this new no, actually have a lot of play in this I've been hearing that a lot. I don't as a brief aside Current the answer is is you don't make your earthguard your battle line You you you utilize uh your oryx and the list that I've been promoting Actually does that um and it actually solves a bunch of problems So we'll do a future show with lists, but uh, but but like actually showing how we we manipulate some lists here um, but Yes, like Expert conquerors if they can be like a big unit of back ranged guys. So this is where like, yeah, sure. We'll mention sentinels here Right. Um, if you're if you've got a battle line sentinels unit Uh, but also like judicators or somebody sitting in the back in a pack who can hold objective encounters a lot Um, but also just like ambushers are incredibly powerful. So the three examples I gave over here are Blight kings, especially like a 10 pack of blight kings Okay Yeah, uh chain rasps who I am all in on as expert conquerors. These guys are just Value in expert conquerors because it's easy to run them in 20s. They're counting as 60 in this battalion And oh They they can ambush they have teleport options in their army Um, they'll all you know, like it's just it is wild how good chain rasps are they're they're also pretty tough by the way like People underestimate chain rasps, but like disc corporation and the other tricks in there These guys can just be thick as a brick. I so I played two games, uh this weekend under the new rules Just to get some experience in before the show I fired at a unit of 10 chain rasps with like a full unit of and these are unbuffed, but it was a full unit of storm Uh, uh fiends like six storm fiends. I killed one chain rasp Yeah, that checks out that happens. I was like, oh, I didn't work how I wanted okay, and The random gv that isn't in the above but that isn't in the sorry Uh that isn't like in the above Uh in this battalion is just waiting to be exploded by bounty hunters in other words Putting gv that isn't tough hard to remove resilient fast mobile Ambushy or sitting well behind your lines is literally just waiting to be exploded and picked up by bounty hunters That's all it is So screening your gv with non gv is essential like having non gv chaff Becomes a really important consideration in the army or a not your non gv front line Yeah So like this is the example why I said having hearthguard not be your Um gv is actually a really good deal because they're your big punchy fighty people that you want to have up front And they're not taking extra damage now Yeah You know elect ban asks So do you think that prosecutors would have play in the meta as a screening unit? Because obviously prosecutors aren't fataligned in anything outside of one Uh sub faction and I think a unit like that. Yeah, absolutely. Right. They're relatively cheap They have a very wide frontage because of their three inch coherency They're very easy to get in there and gum up space and they don't allow your opponent to score much in the way of battle tactics anymore And you could go to like a three up pretty easily, right? Like if you're a hamper, you could be yeah, are they based three up so even better So you go to twos and sixes right and in hammers, which is just Yes, please pretty good. Yeah, uh five man cav is another great chaff. So this is where we get back into your cav discussion, right? So like if you've got non battle line five man horsey chaff They can be battle line. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't matter. But like if you've got five man chaff helsriders Uh marauder horsemen Hex rates rates. Yeah. Hex rates. Sure It's like especially if it's cheap like hex rates are great because they're providing double but they're expensive, right? They are but they're also Pistol ears a great example But like hex rates are really interesting because they're also providing double value You can use them both as chaff or they could be late game to go grab stuff once everybody's weekend because they're super Right, so they're they're kind of playing an interesting double role Okay, and they could actually be your one of your like it one of your choices for like a hunter One thing I noticed with the interplay of expert conquerors bounty hunters is Some of these games it has created situations where I have felt more forced to Try and kill the expert conquerors often msu expert conquerors with no screen in front of them Even though I would rather target the bounty hunters to reduce their output before they get into me And I just found that interesting so even in these situations I mean that's kind of a a classic first step with these two battalions, you know, you put two by 10 chain rasp And then you put two by 20 blade guys revan two by 10 chain rasp next or conquerors two by 20 blade guys Revenant scarlet doom and the bounty hunters And yeah, it was just it's been interesting seeing some of the incentives play out Yeah 100% you like you wouldn't because you realize that they're going to walk up with that conquering power and just hold something Hold something exactly. Yeah, and just take it out on you. So they become high priority targets Yeah, if you don't if things are maybe not quite in the right position And you just don't have the ability to get 30 models on that objective Which then affects your ability to score early on it's like, okay Can I get down in round one around two and catch back up in this game? If I choose to focus on the bounty hunters a little bit more, you know, it's yeah It's just kind of been intriguing the add-on consequences of some of this stuff. I agree so my point here is is that There are some Armies and this is you know, this is really the discussion where basically they're going to be forced into having a lot of Galatian veterans like they might as well put them in expert conquerors sometimes right because like why not? Yeah, but they don't meet any of this criteria and those those those armies that have a lot of that They're forced and down that path are just like waiting to get that stuff to just get exploded Yeah, okay Whereas if you're someone like sylvaneth Okay, sylvaneth review coming in two weeks um, if you're someone like sylvaneth where You could have you know, you've got your tree revs who can be Back in the back of the board just way piping around just zam fear master of the objective steel Okay, they're way around the board every round Meanwhile, your actual battle line is like Kernoth or something right three units of kernoth because you're in heartwood um, I actually played against sylvaneth using heartwood and kernoth and it was uh pretty good Turns out giving all those guys plus one to hit against a lot of units Weird good. We're good. They're also plus one to wound all the time. Uh, anyways, you said plus one to hit I think you meant plus one diamonds, right? No, no, no, they were they were they they're not they weren't they weren't bounty hunters in this case They they were just battle line. They had plus one hit because they weren't oh So they get to pick the three units and then they had an archer have sitting in the middle of them Also giving plus one to wound surprisingly. Uh, good. Anyways Uh, look look for that show in two weeks, but like, you know, like He had both of his his tree revs and expert conquerors and was just able to pipe these dudes around for just 15 Just roaming around very threatening, right suddenly showing up Shadow stonkers 27 Yeah equivalent models. Oh, yeah shadow stonkers huge huge stonks on the shadow stonkers being able to just pop in as 27 Right teleporting every round on their own no no chance of failure Yep Uh I would also mention this might be some incentive for things like starborn where they could have units that they could pick up and put down Every round that are battle line it would meet this and could make some of their trash Uh units actually scary, you know moving like 10 skinks around or something even So yeah, but again like 10 blight kings to me is such an amazing expert conquerors unit As far as the big tough goes because Even though they're susceptible to being attacked back by bounty hunters. That's still a hard unit to shift Right and it's sitting there counting as 30 and being eminently refillable and and just very very very tough So I got hit by 31 attacks extra damage bounty hunters 10 melee snakes He killed one blight king with mystic shield and all that There you go. I mean that's that's exactly what i'm talking about That was with the he got nine out of the yeah, it was I mean I spiked a little bit, but yeah, just We spiked more than a little bit, but anyway, yeah Kill he did he did nine damage. Uh, he did eight Uh, no, he did seven damage. Yeah, he killed one and three wounds on another one Yep, that's what i'm talking about and that unit still sitting there counting is 27 Right By the way to answer the question. Yes, blight kings are still Uh galatian veterans and do qualify for all this even though one guy in the unit has a wounds Five because it's about the units wound characteristic, which is four Not so the one the one champion guy doesn't make a difference Right and even if by the way, even if he did you can just choose to not add him to say Is one one of your bottles may be But it doesn't matter. He doesn't change anything. So there you go. Okay, indeed. Let's let's talk bounty hunters Because this is the thing everybody's talking about only troops troops So not behemoth artillery leader troops And only melee damage This is the true death of the one drop right here because everybody wants to get that sweet double damage against these units that are walking around counting as You know 30 60 90 on points It's everyone's new go-to example for how damaging a unit is We'll see if I put them in in bounty hunters and everything becomes too damaged like everybody loves running to this This is the new like everybody's got a two-up save And like, you know, you know people talking shorthand just like as though they imagine the entire game as a two-up save Which is not of course how things work out in reality But now everybody's just in bounty hunters all the time like for your purposes of all examples given by all content creators And all people in common conversation It just might as everybody's in bounty hunters all the time forever Okay Um This is very powerful for units that can slot in this but are not themselves gv And don't risk being taken down by other bounty hunters so in other words If you are a unit That is a troop But is not battle line, right?    Um enlightened on disc It's a good example, right those guys are pretty brutal already giving them plus one damage All that kind of stuff, right? Um, I'm not sure full minators need another buff, but I welcome it. Let's go sure, um Gore gruntas not all not picture on the page, but I am very excited about three damage gore gruntas again highly mobile Yeah, uh You know extremely tough Uh, I can get pretty crazy on decimators with extra damage The not seen in a long time decimators I still think you won't see them, but I like your hope think we'll see I'm sure protectors are are still pretty good Protectors are still good because the issue you have is so let's talk about this now. Okay now that we've gotten to this point The trick you have is anytime you're talking about something that is potentially A an existing galley vet you risk the two damage hit back, right? That's where things like blikings have a weakness and like even though Well, your units in night haunt that are like battle line if Like this is a case now to not do heritans in quick silver But to do heritans outside because the heritans like ten are at 40 attacks that are all going to be two damage now right Like uh, yes, elect man storm drake guard can be bounty hunters and boy. Oh boy. Can they be bounty hunters? Yeah, uh dragons is still is still good still good still good still good Make a lot of attacks and uh, they're good. They're good. It turns out. Uh, I'm glad I put my the swords on mine I like I've always liked the swords and I think they're better as bounty hunters with swords because the swords have six flat attacks And six two damage attacks is good So yes sharks could be I think sharks are good bounty hunters Um, absolutely. Um, they have a good mix of like the range attack doesn't benefit Eels are fine too The problem with eels is you got to watch it because eels if they if eels go, uh No, they're mounted. They're not. Yeah, they never become glacial veterans. My only issue with eels is Yeah, thank you. I had a different problem with eels too many units keep straight My only issue with eels is they're not as tough as they used to be So sure but they're but you're getting the bonus damage on both your Your main rider attacks and also the mount attack Agreed. Agreed. I don't think eels are bad bounty hunters by any stretch. I'm not saying that Yeah, um Yep So yes, like the key is when you go bounty hunters, it's a great idea if you cannot be a glacial veteran I'm really trying to drive that point. Yes. Yes. Okay um so Uh, yes Things that are just automatically going to like mounted things can work great in here as you mentioned tom This is this is where we again come back to your mountain conversation blood nights. Yeah Roodle in this. Yes unriders Yep. Yep. Let's see. Yeah Morgan was talking about wild riders No, good lord. Get out of here. Oh boy. That's nonsense. Nope Morgan, it's morgan's going to join us next week by the way So i'm i'm excited because next week will be the scaven show We got a lot of fun stuff to talk about with rats, but Yeah, so it's interesting because things like cavalry or this kind of like heavy infantry isn't Isn't equitably distributed around the armies, right? Otherwise I need to come up with a spreadsheet. Uh, I need to add that To the tab to the spreadsheet with all this stuff I'll get that done here shortly. Uh, if you go you asked if brutes would be good The problem with brutes is that they're gv Right, they're automatically gv because they're automatically gv and you're not going to escape that and so you're going to take a little they're going to take They're going to take more damage Arguably than they're going to deal out now that being said to me I think brutes actually to me make more sense in expert conquerors and I'll talk about why Okay, I think the the the list of iron jaws that I'm looking at is like single maw crusher stacked war chantas No wizard as always mega boss on foot Couple deck chair sitters of art boys and a 10 man of brutes and then the rest is pigs all the way down And you go iron suns so that and you go iron suns so the pigs aren't battle line Okay, not that it really matters, but whatever the pigs aren't battle line because they wouldn't be gv's anyways They're getting the full they're in bounty hunters. They're getting the full bonus. Okay. Yeah the 10 man of brutes is in Expert conquerors to both count as 30, but also to walk up to things like chain rasps and be like you messin And just sap the life out of them Right.   It just becomes too low on the priority chain So that's why that I like brutes better in ec than I like about bounty hunters So just a last thought on troops. I mean the the hopium side of me Is that we may actually be entering a better world than we've been in in some time in terms of viability of about Of a broader variety of troop type of of war scroll types is what I'm trying to say, right? Monsters no longer have to worry about hunters at the heartland monsters put out a lot of damage monsters can do Really good saves. I think monsters are still gonna hear monsters many they're still gonna find a lot of value Many of them are really good against they can roar units. Yeah, they can roar They can turn off commands monsters still have relevance mounts. We've talked about at least three different value points on mounts mobility bounty hunters and then non Vets screening etc And then obviously infantry is going to have a value and then different small inventory As points of clear value potentially And then mid-size as well as very elite elite You just made the point the critical point bends with bounty hunters So I mean like that's the hope side of me that we may be entering this ecosystem where So much has gotten quite a bit better It's hard to predict how it's all going to shake out But I can see a case for a much broader range of war scrolls than I could prior to this ghp Yeah, and I should state we're talking about the incentives as we see them in the natural consequences of what they've put before us But understanding how this is all going to shake out when the rubber meets the road And like people really get into this and we see this list tech develop It's it's impossible to predict because there are so many variables going here. Okay Yeah, all right Um Very quickly here because we're already behind schedule, but that's all right. We're okay on schedule We had the extra 15 minutes thing for the battle to describe at the top battle scroll Tyler Tom Myself we're gonna do what is your number one favorite expert conqueror? What is your number one favorite? bounty hunter Out of the list. Okay. So I want you to think about this I will go first okay My number one favorite bounty hunter Is all of the drake off riders Okay, I love drake off riders as a thing Uh, I think they're awesome. It doesn't have to be fulminators. Those two fulminators should probably still go up a little in points Not a lot a little But I like the option to that that now all of them can have some play So that's cool And my favorite expert conqueror. I already talked about I'm actually going to pick brutes I love a 10 man of brutes as expert conquerors solely because of you messin I think their ability to interact with other one wound things that are often going to be expert conquerors in the game And sap there from controlling objectives is super good Tyler what's your hot pick? Expert conquerors, I'm going to go with the much maligns and the two of you are guilty of this dating back to least 2018 Vanguard hunters Ashcona did very well with I'll have you Okay, get out of here up and around Counting as five times three 15 mile. Oh, you're off the show You see A more serious answer would be chaos warriors and expert conquerors they're just solid and Chaos warriors, I think are a good pick just because built-in mortar wound protection lots of safe stacking. Yeah, it's a good pick a lot of wounds Uh, let me think about bounty hunters. Tom. You got an expert conquerors. Yeah, and by the way, the other thing is the Uh, let me jump what you follow up on what you just said for why chaos warriors are a top pick Is that they're immune to vinces top pick These are two wound each So so like right, so they're they're accounting for three and they're two wound models. Yeah, and they're super hard Um, I I for my gv. I are my for my expert conqueror. I have to go with chain rats Because they're just like a 20 pack of chain rasps are Uh 220 Yeah, so cheap for the You get the and the versatility and the defense for 21 20 wounds on a five unrendable regularly on a five up after save Um outside of mathematical flukes, which happened which I experienced at At aco outside of those mathematical flukes. They're just a real hard arm real hard unit to shift and um And they're in also in a sub in an army that refills Yeah, yeah, I mean they take all the boxes. They're tough. They're refillable. They're mobile They can ambush like they're they're they're taking every good thing that is a good ec box Yeah, yeah, uh, I could see a world where I run 60 of them and I thought I was done running 60 Okay There you go. Yeah, tyler bounty hunter pick But here's uh, I'll be lying and just go with kernoff And kernoff are going to be in nuts with this new battle tomb Kernoth can also make a cool thing about kernoff secondaries. Don't forget they make objectives count as Uh, overgrown awaken wild woods, right? So They they also act as a beacon to bonus all of your other dudes around them. So strong Stonks there Tom you got a bounty hunter's pick. Uh, yeah, I I'm just actually going to go straight for uh um Pigs because pigs were already good damage. They were already a great unit great mobility and guess what? More damage. Yeah, it's it's an it's an easy pick Okay Definitely bodies are getting richer with a number of these examples starting with fly spam. I mean that's sure. Yeah frustrating Yes I mean they are That they are they also it should be stated that also pigs have the mass attacks that make bounty hunters the most Worth it right because they just make a just a ton of high rented like 20 27 attacks or something ridiculous It's a little bit of a size the unit. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I'm just singing a three like to be clear. I'm just singing a three pack um, and They're already high damage and they're in uh, they're in an army that can get bonus to damage from war chanters Like it's just just all the way down. Yep a Paladors My god, okay, moving on stop it All right, we're gonna keep going. Let's talk grand strats and battle tactics. So I'm gonna read these we're gonna talk about consequences Okay New grand strats no place for the week when the battle ends you complete this grand strategy If there are no battle line units from your opponent's starting army on the battlefields You got to kill all their battle line Could be actually very easy as people are often de-incentivized off of battle lines So we might see some in battle line type situations in some armies Taim the land when the battle ends you complete this grand strategy You can control all the objectives on the battlefield that are wholly outside your territory hard pass Um defend what's ours when the battle ends you complete this grand strategy If there are no enemy units wholly within your territory and take what's theirs from the battle ends You complete this grand strategy if there are more friendly units than enemy units wholly within your opponent's territory Uh, both probably a no from me Demonstration of strength when the battle ends you complete the screen strategy if there are three or more Galation Veteran units from your starting army on the battlefield.  So the chances of you having like three of them outside of very specific armies that can make like insanely tough GVs is low. Or you have like 12 units. Or you have the ability to summon a bunch more of them. Because it doesn't say starting Galation. Oh no, from your starting army. Never mind. I lied. I'm sorry. It's just said it in the wrong place. So yeah. So a starting army on the battlefield. Yeah, you could. So like you can summon them. Oh, okay. Interesting, interesting rule though. You deploy Night Haunt all your units on the battle and then you get to pull three off. Yeah, sure. So they are on the battlefield. So you could put... Yeah, they're still starting. They're still your starting army. And on the battlefield is meant to reference the three or more, not the starting army thing. The three or more. Right. Oh, do you think so? Yes. Starting army on the battlefield. Regardless, Night Haunt could pull them off and wait till the end of the game and put them back on the table on the last round because there's not the fourth round requirement right now in the Night Haunt book. There is. All books have it. It's a core rule thing, Tom. All reserves, if not deployed by round four, are dead. They are slain instantly. That is not a thing that needs to be written into rules anymore. It's in the core rules. I'm a thousand percent sure. But are they considered to be in... Okay, we'll move on. We'll have this conversation. Yes, anything put into reserve for any reason, if not deployed by the fourth round is killed. Yeah. Okay, when the battle ends, the actual easy one, show of dominance. When the battle ends, you complete this grand strategy if there are any friendly Galatian veterans units in each quarter of the battlefield. This seems really hard because when people read this initially, I saw Russ do this, shouting out Russ, calling you out, brother. He was like, oh, you're never going to have four units. This is just a harder demonstration of strength. No, it's not. It's a much easier version. I can complete this with one 25 mil model. One. Because I can walk that one 25 mil model to the center point of the battlefield and just be standing in the exact center of the battlefield. And I am now within, I'm in each quarter. Don't say holy within, it just says in. I am now in each one. So by that one 25 mil model standing in the direct center, I have completed this grand strat. So if everybody starts taking this, the center of the battlefield in round five becomes a hot showdown. That's what happened two days ago, dude. Days ago. It was amazing. Yeah, he had a battle tactics. Yeah. He was out of battle tactics. Round four, round five, he had to charge into the Chenjudicators and hope he survives in Lichao with his remaining play guys. Revenants killed them, hang out in the center. Hope I don't burn through him. He gets a grand strat. It was, yeah, it was fascinating. That's great. Ryan Goss said, some of the units can't be GV anyway, since they won't be battling. I wish that was true, Ryan, but as near as I can tell, in 3.0, that is not no longer a rule. Maybe they intend to re-instantiate that. It hasn't been an issue so far, but that was a 2.0 FAQ of not absorbing the battle line or of not absorbing your battlefield roles. I actually went through the core rules trying to figure this out. If there was anything in it that referenced it, and I couldn't find anything. I dug through the FAQs for the same thing and couldn't find anything. So if you can point me chapter and verse where it says that I'm happy to change my mind, but that FAQ that was there in 2.0 got removed. So as of right now, if you summon a battle line unit, they're battle line units and they would suddenly become Galatian veterans. As near as I can tell. Again, if somebody has chapter and verse, then fine. But otherwise, I cannot find any rules that say they don't absorb their battlefield role. Okay. Yeah, that by the way, that show of dominance, super risky events, because it just takes them to have like a monster.  All of those are harder, which is what we're going to talk about. That's easier than kicking every single model they have out of my entire territory. Did some maps, right? That's what I don't like. I mentioned this to you a couple of nights ago. What I don't like about these, the problem is I'm not sure what a better solution is. Let me know if you have an idea of hand. They're very when more oriented. It doesn't want to mean by that is, yeah, right? Like if you're winning the game or very likely if you're just hard into their territory, tabling them, of course, you can get the one where you have more than them, right? Yeah.   Yes. Right. Right. That isn't going now. What would be a better direction? But yeah, I'm not there. There's a lot less survive and more and it's a lot more win more. Yeah. Do the answer, Tyler, is just simple. It's due orthogonal things that don't have to do with like killing the enemy or taking objectives. That would be the answer. Right. I think it's better than survive. Because we saw survive, the three most survive. Hold the line, Beastmaster, Pricewatery. They were by far the three that everybody took or one of the three sure. Yeah. I think I think it's a better world, but that's still not ideal. Okay. Battle tactics, gaining momentum, pick one enemy unit on the battlefield. You complete this battle tactic. If that unit is destroyed during this turn and you control more objectives than your opponent at the end of this turn. So fascinating. You can pick anyone, any unit, but if you kill, you got to kill that unit and then hold more objectives. An eye for an eye, you complete this battle tactic. If one or more friendly units were destroyed in the previous turn and one or more enemy units are destroyed during this turn.  Cool. Like it.  Right. Obviously. It's kind of a neat, neat instantaneous sort of thing that's built in there. Desecrate their lands, pick one terrain feature or faction terrain feature that's partially or wholly within your opponent's territory. You complete this battle tactic if you control that terrain feature at the end of this turn. Nice, but it does require a lot of weird jankiness around terrain tracking and who controls what and so on and so forth, but it's not the worst problem. It's just a little minor thing. Not that bad because there probably won't often be that many terrain features partially wholly within your opponent's territory. At least that's what I found in my initial game. Yeah, this one's mine. Pick one enemy unit on the battlefield. You complete this battle tactic. If that unit is destroyed during this turn by an attack made by the model picked by your general has to be an attack.  You fail the battle tactic. Okay. Or if you stomp them or something, right? That's not an attack. It has to be an attack. Very important. Obviously going to depend highly on how killing your general is. Head to head. Pick one enemy Galatian veterans unit on the battlefield. You complete this battle tactic. If that unit is destroyed during this turn by an attack made by a friendly Galatians veteran unit or an ability of them. So that can be attacks or abilities. This is GV on GV violence, right? You've got to take out their GV with your GV out muscle. Pick one enemy Galatian veterans unit that has any models contesting an objective marked as the proving ground. You complete this battle tactic. If no models from that enemy unit are contesting the proving ground at the end of this turn. Okay. Cool. So basically if you've got enemy GVs on a proving ground objective, being obseq, if you kill them, you get this. Against the odds, pick one unit from your starting army on the battlefield. You complete this battle tactic. If at the end of this turn, any models from this unit are contesting an objective you control and that objective is not being contested by an enemy Galatian veteran model. Very popular round one pick here already in my games because you generally have an objective. You can know that the enemy is not going to be having any GVs. Contestantly, you just pick one they're not near. You go up and take it. And then barge through enemy lines. You complete this battle tactic. If there are two or more units from your starting army wholly within your opponent's territory at the end of this turn, if two or more of those units are GVs, you score one additional victory point. All right. So that's our list. Let's talk about consequences. These are much, much harder to accomplish on the whole, which is good. They're still not impossible, but this is good. This is good movement. This is exactly what we talked about in the battle tactic show. I like this. They have a few simple auto wins and are certainly more complicated than like run three, right? There are still some you can do, but it's harder to get all five. Army grand strats and battle tactics should be banned from tournament packs immediately. These are not compatible with the army book stuff because if those army book stuff exists in the same ecosystem, then you are just simply incentivized to play doc or something like that. That too will win tournaments. 100%. My read on this is the army grand strategies and battle tactics were not designed for this new world. They were tuned to the old battle tactics, which are so easy to go five for five, right? And they're just not made for this new or harder world. These should be banned out of tournaments immediately. They are not compatible with this new world of harder battle tactics. If you want interesting games where battle tactics matter, then these need to be thrown into the sun instantaneously for tournaments.  You are creating an uneven playing field period, right? It shouldn't be there. And like doc is the easy one to pick here, but they're not the only one. Like they're certainly a big offender. And I understand not all battle tomes. We talked about this that not all battle tomes or tomes celestials have given the same level of quality. That's only more reason not to use these, right? The fact that some people have these and they're still bad, and some people have these and they're just amazing. It just doesn't work with this new world. Just jettison this dead weight. Get rid of them. Let's play with these eight battle tactics that are clearly tuned for this season that have this play with these keywords, so on and so forth. There's a lot more to be said about this, about the counter arguments, but maybe we can do that in another show. There are a number of counter arguments I've been hearing about like a slippery slope argument, et cetera, et cetera, but I know we don't want to waste 10 minutes on this. The other thing that I would say is that like this would require a different approach to grand strats. The other thing that I don't think would be a terrible change that some events might do is making you choose a different grand strat each game. Yeah, you could go the direction and it would defeat the thing, and then they could keep their army wins and so on and so forth. But again, that's still more complexity when the easy answer is just kick these things out of the game, out of tournaments specifically. Like that's it. It's all there is to it. It's not hard. We don't need to get more complicated than that. You want to use them in your home games for casual games or something like that? Cool. I don't care. It's fine. Whatever. Play the game you want, right? But if a tournament is meant to be like trying to create at least some kind of parody, it's so obvious these are out of whack. Yeah. Like, and by the way, I don't buy the slippery slope because everything is a slippery slope. Life is a slippery slope, but we make a decision to change things all the time. Right. We draw lines all the time. All the time. Yes, exactly. I can swing my arm until it contacts your nose. That's not a slippery slope. It's just common sense. Yeah. Tell me what it was like. Well, what else would Vince want to comp? I'm like, no, that he doesn't we don't really he doesn't think like that. I don't think like that. I don't want to conch stuff. This isn't about comp. That's not that's not how he thinks. I generally hate comp. Exactly. Yeah. Right. This is a module, a very clear module that you can set aside. Right. I'm saying they gave us a thing negative. Yeah. They gave us a thing in this battle pack. I'm saying let's just play with this battle pack. Let's you let's let's actually do the thing they gave us. That's it. Right. Right. Right. Right. Battle tactics. Yeah. All right. GS and BT and GV. Oh my. Let's look at some stats. Two out of six grand strategies require you to have GV, which you could obviously just simply not choose those two if you don't have a GV heavy force, right? Yeah. Both require you to have them alive. So they're both survival type things of some way, right? One way more than the other. Four out of eight battle tactics have to do in some way with GVs. Yep. Only one of the battle tactics actually requires you to have a GV to do something which is head to head.   Hence more heavy incentive on bounty hunters and already powerful battalion. One of the four gives you a bonus point if and only if you have multiple GV performing it, but doesn't really require them. And it's one bonus point one time in the game. So I'm not sweating over it, right? It wouldn't be a reason to change my list construction. And so for the for the record, folks, in general, what this means is that GV or it should probably be your first priority target for eliminating things. Yeah. And like this goes back to my point I made that random chaff that is GV just allows your opponent to basically grab a couple battle tactics from you. Yeah. Right. Yep. So like it's you got to think real deeply about what is your GV, where is your GV, what do you have it doing? Because otherwise, you're just handing your opponent points. Yeah. Right. If you've got a simple small chaff unit that's GV out in front, and they're using like a GV unit in their bounty hunters that's pretty mobile and killy, well then head to head is just like, that's just going to pick it up. Yeah, pick it up.  Yeah. Right. Okay. So like the, to me, there's a lot that you like part of the challenge with the battle tactics in my mind is none of this is incentivizing me to have more GV. In fact, it's pushing me away from it. Right. It's pushing me more into things like bounty hunters and the power of those kinds of units. Like I think in their mind, strategic GV is the way that what it pushes me to. Yes. Andy, no, it is not. Yeah. The thing about like the thing about this is bounty hunters already obviously has a huge incentive. Two out of the four of the battle tactics also play into bounty hunters in some way, right, or make it strong. Okay. Yeah. I would also state that by the way, an eye for an eye, which is, which has nothing to do with GV also feeds into bounty hunters because it's about lifting a unit. Anyone, any one of their units with your unit. Yeah. Right. Any of your units. Yeah. Right. So like there's a lot of incentive here to go hard into like non GV bounty hunter type stuff. Yeah. And they're kind of relying on the proving ground and the object that's objective secured, by the way, is what I'm shortening there. Yeah. Terminal, like function to do a lot of work. And I'm not sure it's that strong. You're saying having GV? Yeah. I'm not sure that proving ground alone is making me care that much. Okay.  I'm glad you mentioned that, Tom, because that leads us directly to the results and strategy slide, the results and strats. Sure. You're welcome. Because, yeah, perfect segue, Tom. I appreciate it. Your pro is always after eight years. Three strategies emerge in my mind. Yeah. One, if your army has GV that can meet the criteria we mentioned, resilient, refillable, mobile, et cetera. Congratulations, your expert conquers, and you're playing Sons of Bahamut now. And why say you're playing Sons of Bahamut? Like play style wise, you're playing Sons of Bahamut. Correct. You're not actually playing the allegiance. No, but you're going to win in the same way they won. Yeah. You have a ton of GV counting as extraordinary numbers of troops. Yeah. You're incentivized not to fight because you don't want to lose troops. You want to be all out of combat. All the time. You retreat every time you can. You rally every time you can. And you just count as exorbitant numbers.  Okay. It's mine. Right? I retreat out. I retreat out. I retreat from you every time because I'm just, I am highly incentivized with this kind of a strat, if you go this strat, to fight as little as possible. I charge you almost never. I retreat every time I can. I stand on objectives as much as possible.  Yep. You, it has, there's a high benefit to going second because then you dominate the proving ground. It can use that to your advantage. You win through objective domination. And by the way, everybody was upset about giants like taker tribe stuff counting as 30. Yeah. Right. Because it was unbeatable. That's nothing. That's like the opening bid in the G map. Like clan rats clan rats will be like, I'm 180 on this objective. Yeah. We were playing about one of the battle plans I played was the table quadrant. Someone will talk about the where the table quadrants and objective and just on two units. I didn't bother to count everything up, but on two units, I had 240 capture power in that quadrant. Wow. This is mine now. This is mine. All right. Particularly on your, on this one, Vince. So against the odds, we've talked about how, not on this show, but prior, there is an argument in some instances to going first or benefit in general and going first with against the odds. Right. So let's say we're in one of the three objectives in the middle, like in the presence of idols where you've got enough veterans, maybe all an expert conquerors. You plot them all on those three objectives. Cool. Your opponent goes now your opponent could very well be denied from getting an easy against the odds battle tactic in round one, which might get them off sequence. Now they may have to try and do a harder one. Like, you know, it could potentially start getting them off sequence in terms of achieving their battle tactics because you've taken out that easy one by going first, actually. Right. Anyway, I mean, no, no, it's a good point. I think we're going to really have talks about going first or not. Right. Like, because you there's, I can really see a strat where you almost want to go first and then get doubled. Okay.  You want to be doubled. I actually think there is quite a playable strong strat in many of these battle plans where you want to go first, get doubled, and then ride second the rest of the game. Where you just, if you win priority, you give it away. If your opponent wins, you hope they take it. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. And I think Knight Haunt would excel in that world. Yeah. Femi asked, is it going to be a mistake then to take the units with big bases who love to fight in two ranks as from GV? I was looking at six to nine players. It's not like they've ever been that tough.  Like we didn't talk about because what's going to happen is that a Hunter unit is going to look at that and just lift it, right? Yeah. They're going to go into it and just lift your unit because it's an easy charge. Five up six up.  It's an easy charge, easy, and it's an easy battle tactic complete. Yep. Yeah. Those kind of like low armor save, weak like monster students on like a five up save, that GV, that's just, that's, I hate to say it, but they're the big losers here. Yeah. Rockett rolls on the other hand. Sure. Especially plus one. I wanted to get your guys temperature. We skipped over this. Should bounty hunters been, what's your initial take on this? Should bounty hunters have been more limited, right? There's a number of ways we could have made it more limited. We could have made it where it could only be against expert conquerors troops. We could have made it where it had to be only veterans themselves could go in bounty hunters being more limited than it was. It probably shouldn't have been plus one damage to all melee weapons to actually, yes, it should have been more limited. Yes. And then, and then solution is pick any of 50 things. Or how about this plus one to hit? I mean, like again, like, like I said, there are literally 50 solutions I could try. Well, plus one to hit is just a redundant bonus and a lot of armies, right? It could not hit and wound. It could be only GVs in there, but then then you'd have a lot of armies that just don't get to play in these two battalions and also I understand why they wanted it to be troops like all of those will have positive and negative externalities. Okay. It could have just excluded mounts. That could have been a way to go, right? There's it could have done 10 different things. It didn't. That's not the world we live in. So so here we are. The answer is simple. Yes, it should have been more limited. Easy. Right. Okay. If you make it hero only. Yes, if your army has lots of elite troops that can deal damage, you are now bounty hunters and leaning heavier into hammers, all the hammers, get them all out, baby. Like it's time to go smash. Who wants to smash? Minimizes and controls GV by having little to none of their own. They also have a high benefit for going second, because then they can put the proving ground where they don't care. That's the key, right? Like everybody thinks of this as only an offensive thing. No, of course, proving grounds defensive as well. Yeah. Right. Like I can just stick it somewhere where I already have control of the objective and I don't care that it's upset.  I just stopped my ability to contest. I don't lose control of anything. So I'll just bunker the thing or burn it on something. I have no intention of taking this round so that they can't do it in the future. Like if I'm going to the left objective and I know that's where I'm pushing this round and they they're sunk on the right. Congratulations. The right objective is now a proving ground. I plan to go nowhere near it. Fight on it. Not at all. And later in the game when it matters, I've already burned it off as proving ground to say it. It's also I don't think we did earlier. It's also optional. It's a can. You're not required. You're not required. So you just always not do it. But I think defensive proving. Yeah, because you want to burn there so that they can't use that in the next day. So yeah. So like if you have, if they are bunkering on a objective with a GV and you want to take that in the future, you burn it early so that in the later turn you hit that they can't use it. Right. Right. Right. Interesting. Exactly. Like there's so much play to be to using proving ground if you're in the bounty hunter force with almost no GV, right? Because you're just counter playing them. Yeah. Okay. So high benefit to going second wins through killing enemy GV and neutralizing the proving ground. Third strat that emerges out of this shooting. Still here, baby. He thought it was gone. It's still here because now it's the counterplay. It's still good and it can remove enemy GV and bounty hunters alike because the bounty hunters have to wait to get into melee to express their bonus. Shooting doesn't. Shooting still likes to be one drop. Shooting still likes to go first and is happy to take the double. I'm happy to let you give me the double so I can just be blasted. So anyways, I started blasting. Right. Okay. Like shooting becomes the counter pick to all of the incentives this one is telling you to do. Right. And it doesn't mean that shooting will absolutely dominate. It just means that it is a counter strat that is a viable strat against the other play types. Exactly. So don't worry re-rolling ones, Jack. I know you're out there.  So whatever bent shooting unit you happen to land on next, Jack, you'll be just fine. And it really creates a rock, paper, scissor situation. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. Very much so. Like you look at these three and it absolutely is a sort of rock, paper, scissor situation. Because shooting does really well against bounty hunters. But really poorly against the heavy GV strat. Right. The heavy GV strat. Because they just have wards of big units they're hard to remove. Right. Where shooting is going to pick off all of your GV with him like a turn. Yep. Right. So this is the inch in my world. This is the three strats that armies drive toward as being winning strats. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Battle plans. We're behind, but we're all right. We're not that far behind. We got to catch up a little. So we're just going to skip over battle plans. You know, we're not doing that. Okay. All right. Let's do this. The prize of gallant. I'm going to, I'm going to summarize these. I'll leave these on the screen for a second and then we'll go to the things. Here's my summary.  The trick is those five objectives aren't active. Each turn at the start of the battle round, the player who takes the second turn picks one of the objectives and activates it. And that's the only one that can be fought over. Once it's active, it remains active for the rest of the game. Okay. And let's just get right to it. I love this thing. We're going to do a good bad judgment. This is great. It's the best battle plan in the pack. Simply as a measure deployment five objectives, limited ability to score in round one, incentive to produce a longer game. No bad things I can pick up of note. It's fun. It's interesting. No big advantage for any of the three strats. Okay. Tournament ready, attorney readiness on this one, 10 out of 10 for me should be in every pack. It's a huge win. Tyler, Tom. Yeah, agreed. I mean, this was just all good. Like it's great to start on such a high note. It's the most obvious excellent mission in the pack. Yep. It's fantastic. Love it. More of this thing, please. Like do more like this. This is good. Really does. Awesome. And to promote longer games in my experience so far. So yeah, it's cool. Yeah. I love this. Gareth said it's his favorite as well. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's just good. This is when you get a good battle plan, you can see it. And this is a good one. All right. The realm stone cash. So this one is a very small deployment territory, but again, pretty simple. What happens here is in the first two battle rounds, this center objective is the only one that exists. There is one objective on the battlefield in battle rounds one and two at the start around three, it explodes. Okay. This one gets removed.  And on a one to two, I was going to point at the screen like you can see my freaking hands on a one to two, it goes here and here on a three to four, it goes here and here on a five to six, it goes here and here. We're not using the corners anymore, which is neat. We actually have one sitting in the middle of the line. So that's fun. So I guess that's just supposed to be the dead middle of the line, though they don't bother to provide measurements for this because apparently writing a number of inches on a map is anathema to their layout studio. But anyways, yeah, it's this. Here's my notes on this one. You could use your take. I'm sorry to blow through these like this, but we got to move. So I'm just going to roll one, roll one dies. I don't know if you said that. Yeah, just one guy and then they go. Yeah, because so they're always in a line, right? Like they're like this, or like this, or like this, that one die determines both places. Okay. Cool. Simple, easy to measure deployment. It's a big change in the game in round three. Talk about a fun, suspenseful roll of the die. Very interesting interactions with proving ground, because like in the first turn, the person could choose to pick proving ground on that only one objective and then not. And if they do, they burn it. And then round two, suddenly there's nothing you can't proving ground anything, right? And then round three and four, you burn it and burn it. And then round five, there's no proving ground. So it's kind of interesting how it interacts with that. Very small deployment area could actually be a challenge to fit some armies in there.   So that's potentially of concern. Other potential bad is this might lead to a scrum in the middle for the first two rounds or the alpha bunkering potential.  I'm out there. Here's my chaff lines. Here's why I'm bunkered in. Everything's good. Everything's under the thing. For the first two rounds, I'm going to score two points or sorry, four points, you're going to score two. That's how this works. Deal with it. And by the time we get to round three, I'm four points up on you. And then when it explodes, I'm just going to retreat my entire army back to mine. Like if it explodes on one of the angles, I'm going to treat my entire army that's left back to my one thing and just hold it. And I need to do nothing else. And I'll just go three per round and you'll go three per round. And I went because I was up by four and round one and two. Weaker for the shooting strat could be strong for EC, like for the Eastern strat. Extra conscious. Yeah. Because they might have the ability to, like if you're playing, again, like the bounty hunters versus the heavy GV strat, they might just be able to march in and take it away from you and still have their non-GV chaff to hold you up, right? Like they might just be able to pile enough people on there. Like there's no world where you can kill enough of them to get it, right? Yeah. So why did your sound just change, Tyler? Why do I hear background plays now? What did you do? I have no idea. I didn't do anything. Did you click a button? All right. There you go. Fix it. Yeah, you're good now. Okay. All right. What else have we got? What else on this one? This was a seven out of 10 for me. It's good. I like it. It's fun. Yeah. I think my main concern is the alpha bunkering potential, but I need to actually see it, get some games in with some real armies that can do that and see how it goes. Yeah.  And I think that, I think both of those, I think that would be, alpha bunkering would be a viable one if you're built correctly. Yeah. And obviously there's like, yes, Gary, we did mention that. You don't have to nominate a proving ground. Yes, absolutely. It's all, it is an optional can. I think most of the time you will, but you don't always have to. So like, if it ever comes to where there's just no way to win, you're like, oh, the only one I can nominate is the one that's bad for me. You just skip it. You just don't do it. Yeah. Okay. Battle lines drawn. You'll notice the stunning lack of objectives in this one, because in this one, it uses this box deployment, which I quite like this corner to corner deployment. And I like this because it's easy to draw, easy to set up. I'm big on deployment setup, by the way. I know I keep hammering on this and the two of you were like, we had, we did like a, we did a couple of pre-show meetings about this. We had to get this tight. And I don't think my co's care as much about deployment setups as I do, but I'm really, I really care about it because I hate sitting while rocking up to a table and having to take 15 minutes to figure out the freaking deployment lines. It's a common I, common I use sticks. Yeah, it's fine. We just have pre-measured sticks. And I just put dice real quick. I have sticks everywhere too. That's still time.  And a lot of people push for two hour 45 rounds, nothing like making it two and a half before you even set a unit on the table. Okay, like do I'm sorry, did we want to finish games? I thought we did. I thought we were trying to have play five round games.  I haven't went to time in a year. You're not the norm. Okay. I'll just be quiet over here when it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, Tyler Tyler did. No, I take that back. There were, there was a game at adepticon that I went to time at. Sure. Tyler may not be as, uh, as, as speedy on the stick here. I'm just saying, Tyler, you should value every minute. All right. In this battle, each table quarter is an objective and the quarter counts as an objective for everything wholly within that quarter, including grand strats, battle tactics, abilities, so on and so forth. Uh, this also has this rule called confined caverns. Units cannot be removed from the battlefield with an elect that will allow them to be set up later. So in shortest terms, no teleportation, none, zero teleportation. Uh, so I don't like this one very much. Um, it is a simple, easy to measure deployment. Neat usage of table quarters is cool. And it interacts very interestingly with proving ground. And that your turn choosing whole table quarters, basically there's like four objectives as the quarters. The bad in my mind is do we really need more scenarios that shut off army rules? Like, look, I know some people don't care about this.  Who cares? But like Sylvaneth just got their new book and they got a new cool ability to like strike and fade to remove themselves from teleport. There's a sub faction that's completely dedicated to that. And it's like, great, what a, what a wonderful time.  You're excited because they finally leaned into it and let you do cool things with your spy revenants.  Put them in the bin. You get nothing. You get nothing and you'll like it. Like how to one game for one game. Cool. Enjoy losing that game. How fun. How fun to have one out of the five games that you just basically can't win. What a great time. And like, I understand, of course, you could win.  You know what I mean? Like restriction breed, restriction breeds innovation. Is that not right then? If you love list building and you're a Johnny, sure.  Yeah. No gnaw holes. Those turn off. Like, isn't it great when you only have, when you have three spells and one of them is a teleport and your army ability is to teleport and that all shuts off. Isn't that fun? Isn't that fun for you? Night hunt as well. Yeah.  Enjoy having dead units on the table. No, you just don't.  It's fine. He does good damage. What a great use of that guy for his points. Like he's a he's a great beater. Sure. Okay. Corrader ships. Yeah, the entire KO air force shuts off. Yeah, exactly. I think there's I need to see this play out with some of these armies we're talking about. I think there's a chance that it will be in warm weekly terms. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. I get what you're saying, though, from first principles. I love the basic concept. I'll tell you why it's not because you're going to build around this, both of you. Yeah. If this shows up in packs all the time, you would just build around this. Yeah, that's fine. Of course you would. That's not how most people think. And that's the problem. You're sitting from a place of luxury where you love list building and you love being Johnny's and you have enough forces or armies or wherewithal to collect whatever you end up needing to put those on the table. That's not most people. Like I'm sorry to get angry about this and be the defender of these people, but like some people just want to play what they want to play. And it really sucks for them to show up and have potentially now two scenarios that kick them in the teeth. That's not fun. Phil, I feel very put my plays, Tom. What about you? It's fine. Okay. They'll lose it. You know what? They were going to lose games anyways is what you're going to say, Tom. Yeah, I got it. Very nice comment. I didn't say that. I want to go on record as saying that did not come out of my mouth. Like at a deeper level, imagine the army where you're playing something where you don't have reserves because you can still reserve in office. It does still allow reserves to show up. But like imagine you have an army where you just, and there are armies like this, there are plenty of armies like this where they have very limited reserves. Okay. And you get paired up against, like whether you have teleports or not, by the way, let's just forget that for a second. Okay. But you get paired up against like an Alpha Nurgle Air Force who then Alpha blocks you into your quarter. That's your whole game. You lose. You lose instantly. Turn one, they drop, they pop. You lose. And that's maybe the biggest abomination in the game right now in my opinion, completely antithetical to that entire book and how that book is supposed to play. Oh, but yeah, no, I get it. Yeah, that will be a thing. And but anyway, I do love the concept of this, right? Like I think the bones are really good. Maybe we need some better layers on top of the bones. Better. Yeah. Yeah, my problem is totally in this stupid, like teleport rule that just didn't need to be there to make the scenario interesting. Like it was a perfectly viable cut that rule. This is a better scenario. Right. Do you wonder if the playtesting, if they didn't have it there and they decided to add it? What's interesting here is like the table quarters as objectives is actually a really cool incentive for the expert strat for the Galatian veterans. It actually makes them very powerful in the meta if this is showing up because they can just, you know, be dropped in anywhere and suddenly go, Whoa, what just happened? Why is the stream all weird? That was weird. Okay. That was strange.  It's really good incentive for the expert strat. And I like that. I want more incentive for them. Right. That's my actual big problem with it. That's why I rated this like tournament readiness five out of 10, because it's almost a good scenario. It's just it's got this one rule that's just terrible. Right. Like your late game or early game reserving and stuff like that, it matters a lot. And you can just capture in really interesting ways. There's a lot of trading that could happen. Yeah. And that would be really fun if that kind of interactivity was there. Or it just, or it just privileges certain armies that have that ability to pick up and put units anywhere in the intern five. So, so like you're picking winners, right? Either way, you're going to pick winners. If you allow it, if you allow people to to teleport, then you're picking those armies that have a strong advantage to have a strong advantage. And so like at the same time, I'm oak anyway, they go, Tom. I'm better with that than the reverse because everybody still the list builders. Yeah. But then the list builders who have built specifically for this are just going to win. And there's no, there's no hope on the other side. Right. Potentially, sure. Like again, it's not as much the loss. It's not only do you lose, you don't get to play with any of your army rules. You lose twice in this world. In that world, I still feel like I'm playing a game. I still do stuff. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. It's a fascinating mission to kind of talk through and yeah, we should come back to it another time. But I think it's yeah. All right. Dwellers lurkers, the dwellers below. Shout out to our dwellers below friends down in Australia. The worst mission in this battle pack, so that's exciting. From the tops to the bottoms. So deployment, holy within your territory, fine plays lengthwise already hated, conquers momentum. This is so wild. In this battle, you must control the objective on the border of your territory before you can contest the center. In addition, you must control the center before you can contest the opponents. And deadly denizens objectives cannot be controlled in the first battle round, except they can because they didn't block off the pregame control of objectives. Okay. So as long as you've got somebody within six inches of the one on the border of your territory, which is no reason you wouldn't, you will control, you know, blue will control blues and red will control reds at the start of the game. However, you can't gain control of the middle in round one because then it ticks over into round one and deadly denizens takes over. Right. So nor can anybody take anything from you. Right. Like they can't take yours from you in round one because they can't control your can contest or control yours. Right. Right. So and it's a tug of war. It's tug of war along this line. Right. Good. I have written here error 404. I couldn't find anything I like about this. Here's all the bad. It's lengthwise deployment. The objectives you can't capture start is captured. No incentive to move forward in any way around one. It's a scrum in the middle only. You don't need deck chair sitters because if you control the middle one, move your whole army up there. There's no reason to actually lose it. Yeah. Right. You can't lose the back objective ever. Right. Right. They could put a million bajillion Galatian veterans and expert conquerors back there and have 800 capture power to your zero. They just can't take it. Right. Right. And it has an instant lose condition in the third battle round. By the way, I didn't mention that, but that's also how this works. If you control all three in the third battle round game over, otherwise it's it. That's the only way you get a major. Otherwise it's one of those minor loss things. So it's like the classic knife to the heart or whatever. Right. This also has very weird interactions with proving grounds because of the nature of how these objectives just get like locked off. Most of the time you're just proving ground things that don't matter or aren't actually in play. Well, by turn three, everything has been proving ground. Assuming someone chose every round and it's very possible those all got burnt on literally objectives that couldn't even be potentially captured. Right. Right. Right. There are just a multitude of problems here. Either you have a massive scrum in the middle for five rounds. Okay. Just like because that's where all the fight happens.  So this would be much more interesting if it were nine objectives or like something like that. If it were moving across or six, right, you could see it six as like the cross matter as well. Sure. Right. Sure. And it's just bad all around. Like I just I really, this is a one out of 10 for me. I think this is definitely my least favorite in the whole pack. I just I think this is a badly written scenario. Do you have a sense of this on Tom? I haven't played it yet. I mean, what it says to me is that you just need to jam everything into the middle and then hope like the enemy doesn't have doesn't have like a lower seeker. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Like as per the other rules are written now, the lower seekers like the ultimate cheat button on this scenario. Yeah, that lower seekers like like I'm going to take the middle and I'm going to cheat the rules and good luck. Yeah. Because right now there's no there is some by the way, I don't want to get into a deep rules discussion, but like we we did a big review of you can look at 18.1.1 and 18.1.2. The text is unclear pregame. There's no contesting contesting only happens during the game because they never wrote the rules with the concept that there would be contesting pregame and all this stuff. So like there is some gray area there. There needs an FAQ on top of all this being bad. But yes, it's just like because as read what looks like it happens is the lower seeker drops. You get both objectives before the game starts before turn one starts and then you just push your entire army up on on the middle and notably they can't take the middle one back from you in the first round even if they feel the lower seeker because they can't control objectives. Yeah. Right. Right. And so then like everybody's in the middle and you're in the end point position and like they have to guard theirs. If you have to they have to guard theirs because you can take theirs from them. Right. And so they have to actually stay there and bunker that position so they can't actually overextend into the middle otherwise you could jump them. Right. And so like it's a super dangerous super dangerous thing if there's a lower seeker on the table. Well it's good that the best scenario for LRL is the worst scenario in the pack. Well how on brand for them. All right. In the presence of idols Tyler you got to play this one I haven't played this one yet. Again the box to box corner to corner deployment good deployment. I really like the objective setup in this where they're like counter to the sort of X pattern I quite like this a lot. That that basic pattern guys I mean this might be obvious to you but before Game of Heroes was done with war code I didn't appreciate how that objective placement how does it pull you apart and you play across the entire board. I played that lot that set up last night with Nurgle and I did not enjoy it with Nurgle. Even the little thing like one of the objectives is actually 11 inches from you but 15 inches from your opponent and one of the objectives is 15 inches from you but 11 inches from your opponent just little things like that I really like this setup a lot. It creates very subtle natural incentives to go certain directions. Yeah yeah absolutely. So the way this one works is this we've got this weird game of fight thing where after deployment but before determining who will take the first turn each player picks three different friendly units any unit can be a hero can be a monster can be a unit can be anything. To be idols the units each player picks are their idol units for the battle have the number of models that flee due to a failed battle shock test rounding down while their units holy within six inches of any idol units in their army. Okay extra rules we didn't need this is the definition of like you could have just said these are your idol units because that's like what a silly thing to have to remember and measure in all of this for the times it happens but because the actual meat of this happens in the each enemy idol unit destroyed by a friendly idol unit is one VP. That's right. What like this plays wonderfully though into the like take and hold strat yeah because the conqueror strat because like you're just going to pick your big block units that are already going to be super meaty right and super defensive and now they those are the units that they need to try to remove and now they're halved battle shock already like it's just like yeah right it's so good things nice setup easy deployment good objective spread really forces people to fight in different areas of the board bad lots of potential tracking around the idol for minimal benefits with that like battle shock thing just it's a hat on a hat it didn't need to be there the victory points already were telling me why I cared right yeah it does very heavily reward idol hammer bounty hunters a lot like dragons and stuff who who are already straight killers and go and bounty hunters and then you make them idols and now they're going to get like bonus bonus points when they kill enemy stuff right yeah yeah it also rewards ranged idols um so like if you've since marathi and the bow snakes is still okay obviously your bow snakes are going to be like are going to obviously be your hot pick and they're just going to point click kill three idol units for three victory points right like boom boom boom boom like why wouldn't you because you don't have to kill them in melee to get the bonus points you just need to kill them right right so the execution here lacks I think this is the good bones of scenario with a nice map and one silly rule that probably isn't executed as well it could be it does power the shooting strat I'm a five out of ten maybe I'm a little more generous maybe a six out of ten on this one yeah I don't hate it yeah I don't I think maybe I could honestly move this to a six out of ten after having thought about it for a week or so Tyler what you played this what's your feeling did yeah I told you guys this to me as a rich man survival of the fittest because it's got better map better objective placement there's a limitation on the idols you have to pick them on the battlefield so you're well what used to be six long strikes you can't put them off the battlefield and have them be an idol right right so that's a little bit of a healthy limitation I think all us equal I'm a six to seven out of ten maybe a seven out of ten I mean it is unfortunate the the value of course is a lot of value still in range output with something like this with the bonus points so but yeah no I think it's pretty solid I could definitely see it showing up in a lot of tournaments yep I think I think I'm I think I'm ready to move this one to six I agree there we go a little better a little better I wouldn't get I wouldn't be in totally fair to it okay the night is paths the second worst setup in this entire mission pack we'll get to the one that's somehow even worse and the battlefield has four little tunnels called night is passed you can see it here a and a and b and b effectively everybody's scaven now congratulations you can teleport between your night as no holes that's that's what's going on other than that it's four objective standard cap okay nice objective spread that pulls enemies apart in an interesting way I love the box objectives again you were talking about the three versus the starting zones I really like the box for objectives a lot on what it makes you do with your armies no you know using the good scoring there's no wacky points runs it's just good old-fashioned four objectives hold one hold two hold more like solid yeah okay um one of the worst deployments math is it's only necessary when the only reason I rated this one six when really I wanted it to be a seven was because I have no idea what to think about those night its paths I I just don't know how that's gonna play and it created a big question mark in my mind like will people use it at all will people just camp it does it overvalue the armies they can afford to just like park one deck chair sitter unit behind it does it punish armies that can't you know I I don't know my feeling is this one's like six pushing seven out of ten um I think this is good for bounty hunters if they can especially if they can start because it can make them more mobile if the paths are open they can use them to get around and you know get at even other things they want um so yeah one so I did this was the one I played last night and one key thing is the you can the night's paths trigger at the end of the movement phase right so you can move to them so that values mobility and that definitely stood out you know like I said you're all scathing now this is what we've been doing for a long time you run and jump in the hole right shadow queen 14 inch move cool pop in the night's path mount at the other night's path plus one of charge eight with a re-roll it's pretty pretty scary so yeah there's gonna be situations like that where you're really gonna feel it definitely values mobility uh but it it felt to me like a seven like you know I can see that there's some counter play with it you know yeah with with deck uh with just hanging out turning it off particularly early game so yeah I liked it it was it was intriguing okay yeah my general feeling on this one is if this showed up in a tournament path I wouldn't be like uh no I mean it'll be fine most armies won't be able to really take advantage of the night's paths I like some of the play with ranged units like teleporting ranged units through them that actually creates some interesting situations where like it pushes people away from the night's paths because even short range shooting becomes threatening when like the 10 12 inch shooting like yeah when if they can pop out nine and then immediately open fire and charge yeah um so I don't know I think that uh I don't know I think I think I like this more than most scenarios in the pack that's what I would say cool yeah like I said it's one of the more positive ones it's in it's in the positive pack yeah positive pack you go like a teleport ranged unit on to that that then so it's kind of like a chain teleport right you know like translocation your adjudicators whatever put them there now they're set up to potentially then do another teleport to to get out of dodge later on the next so it's kind of interesting yeah yeah all right why are all the Galatian veteran favoring scenarios so bad okay the mighty and the cunning here we go um four objectives across the middle line good deployment I like the objectives I like the deployment I when I first looked at the scenario I was like oh I'm gonna like this one I looked at the scoring section only and was like oh yeah I'm definitely gonna like this one and then I read the on their terms and I was like oh no I hate this one okay it's amazing how fast it flipped in this battle the same objective can be picked as the proving ground more than once per battle okay fine like neat that alone probably would have been a good incentive toward the power of Galatian veterans right yeah um however then we decided to or then we decided to that was too much for the Galatian veterans so we said shatter their strength and made it anti-gv you score two victory points each time an enemy Galatian veterans unit is destroyed score one additional victory point if that enemy Galatian's veteran unit was contesting an objective when it was destroyed which is what it's going to be doing most of the time that is wild three vps for killing that unit okay okay this just became a pure bounty hunter scenario right period like taking gvs into this scenario is instant suicidalness scoring sorry good deployment nice objective spread but lots of focus on killing gv very bad points runs are possible if you face a bounty hunter heavy force with control gv right little to none we're highly protected like good lord uh you're just gonna be like click click click click click dead yeah i mean what i would say is like but what we see you know across all of the scenarios is that there is a diversity of favored strats across them sure sure and so i think that this may actually diversify winnings even more just because there are some scenarios that favor hunters for some scenarios that favor conquerors which with some scenarios that favor shooting strats and so i i actually think that there will be some sorting just from assuming that there's like your five scenarios you have are balanced amongst those i actually think that some of this that like de-incentivizes uh uh conqueror strats can actually be a good thing sure it's like that's why i still gave it a five out of ten as opposed to like where i wanted to put it which was honestly lower but like man there can be there are gonna be blowouts in this game yeah like they're just will be you know the the army that i'm putting together it'll probably take to nashcon i'm telling you right now is gonna be a bounty hunter's thing okay and weird i can't imagine i'm probably gonna be taking a conqueror's list this time i can't wait to meet some gv heavy strat honestly like if this scenario should not be in there david if you're listening don't put this in there but like it would be super good for me and i'm telling you not to do it because i would love to meet some gv heavy army on this thing and just be like oh i'll enjoy my 12 free vp here we go let's do this you know like that's a lot right and and i agree with you though as put you it is like you that's why we put in here like what do these lean toward like what's better for expert conquerors what's better for bounty hunters once better for the shooting strat because it is relevant you're not wrong right like in the end you would want to mix of all of these across like a tournament or something which by the way this is just a wonderful case for david's format sure of the two the two list format a two list format because when you get to something like this you can be like whoop i'm in conqueror's strat whoop you know and just jump around based on on what the stronger build is going to be now that being said i don't think it's untenable like i said it's still a five out of ten for me right which puts it in the average category i don't want to feel like i'm bagging it more than i should be yeah like i think it still has some play yeah yeah it's just we look at the the two buckets of incentives for and against with again going back to the yin yang of the two core battalions and it's certainly feeling like at the start here we have more on the side uh for bounty hunters then for and then that we don't we don't necessarily need this to be against uh the expert conquerors at least that that's my initial temperature so yeah it seems like probably a bad scenario in that regard but we'll see but i like tom's point though you know we've got it you know if we need a four mission like you know for expert conquerors mission like this in a tournament to help balance the cool we've got it yeah i mean i i don't think this is actually helping expert conquerors but i take what you know i i knew it yet if we need to help really walk a moment you're good strike that reverse okay all right uh corbin said like scaven can probably just plop their 60 to 120 clan rats in the middle only two gv with something like storm fiend battle line and you're most likely not getting those points oh i'll get those points i'll pick up those points real easy i play clan rats a lot they die in bucket loads it's super easy to pick them up especially when i'm bringing in four damaged fulminators they'll they'll get there they'll get there don't worry uh okay head on collision uh again box but this time going straight across with the the objectives um in this battle objectives cannot be controlled in the first battle round and this time they added the extra text so like it's the same named ability did they just forget the text in the other one i don't know maybe it'll be faq'd i hope so but players do not gain control of objectives after setup is complete core rules 18.1.1 great stuff um and this one is sort of the newest take on the 124 right where it's yours is worth one to you it's worth four to them the middle one's worth two in general and the opponents is worth one to them or four to you right um and this one has a minor bonus where you gain control of an objective this turn and there are any friendly galatian veterans units within six inches of that objective they gain one vp right uh you have to gain control of the objective this turn so just sitting the gv unit there and camping does not keep ticking a point it's only when you gain control now the gv doesn't have to gain control they just have to be near okay uh and i like this one i i play i this i played head on collision uh and it was a great time like this was really fun the setup was fun the incentives back and forth were fun uh you got a good incentive to like push into their territory the only bad is the sometimes potential swing of these 124 scenarios that you know if it's really close then somebody like nabs the yours for even around and then you recover it can sometimes go out of your reach to to get it but that's always been the case with 124s that that that isn't necessarily a bad thing that can kind of make it a fun thing because it's playing around with like how you have to protect and it's skill testing and you know things like that that you want tournaments or battle plans to do um i like that the galatian veterans is only when you gain control so it's constrained it's there it incentivizes expert conquerors but it's not overwhelming right it's good i was gonna say we had a lot of debate events about whether with battle for the past to put that at three victory points instead of the four sure to potentially try that out but anyway just just a little side note yeah in terms of that structure yeah i really like this one yeah as do i this is 7 out of 10 i could even move this up to an 8 out of 10 but like it's i like this one a lot it was fun to play had a great time with my opponent it ended up being a close game it was you know new scaven versus new silvanath and we just we had a grand old time it was really really good tom yeah i like it yeah i'm a fan i i hope this one shows up in tournaments i think it'll it'll lead to a lot of good games i agree and i like that this one actually does incentivize ec in the right way yeah right this is a good ec scenario do you say the deadly denizens rule that objectives cannot be controlled first battle round yeah i think that's a nice little touch it is it's it's cool it's fun it did make for interesting things where people were positioning in various ways we were doing some stuff i i my scaven just said okay if i can't control i think i'm gonna kill everything he has i went in hard on just alpha striking him uh all right uh cool uh won't back down so again this very strong lengthwise met meet to meet deployment oh boy okay rally points in the so six objectives they're just everywhere in this battle if a player uses the rally command and the unit that receives the command is wholly within six inches of an objective they control when they roll a dice for a slain model from that unit they can return one slain model on a five up if that unit is a galatian veterans they return one slain model on a four up so your entire army uh can rally on fives and fours so that's good for conquer builds but not good for uh hunter builds and like this is my point right sure like yeah yeah that like yeah some of them are going to incentivize certain play styles some of them are incentivizing other and that if that's mixed in a pack that should be okay yeah it conceptually i agree with you completely my issue with this one is one i think it can over bonus backline shooters sure okay just get just just a charge of it's fine sure and i think four plus rally like i said is like a third rail that should be extremely constrained and just handing it out to like whole forces i'm like my god this game is already slow enough and now we're just gonna like all these like the reason i say backline shooters is because of course that if people pick on your units you can just boost them back up and if you have hard hop shooting you can be you're you're all you target the things that only that you know you're gonna actually kill right like you focus fire yeah like to rally bonus on this is too big is ultimately what i come to yeah um it's just i really like i rated this one a three out of ten because i i am scared of what this would do to round times is what is it i mean it's fine because like if you're in combat with the unit they can't rally it requires a retreat and then it's just it's fine sure i mean it's a lot of like it's a lot of just just the whole thing like a unit almost dies then it comes back to just incredibly full if you rally twice in a row you restore 75 ish 60 yeah i understand i understand i do a lot it's a lot i mean it's obvious i think it's a lot better if you just make it a five up on veterans i would really happily play this mission yeah like that that would feel like enough to me it's it's honestly just going to the four um like that woof woof uh it's what scares me about this like i just better better watch out for those with those grots i guess i guess indeed uh so like i just i i agree with you garith i fall down with it's funny how similar i think garith and i have very similar tastes when it comes to to to battle plans i just i like all i see with this is tons of dice rolling and units just constantly being restored back up to full no like if if you hit a unit you have to remove the unit like that like that's what this says sure like sure which then favors either a shooting or a combo shooting bounty hunter strategy sure guess what uh or this is supposed to be the ec bonus strat no no or or i i a a mass troop uh conquer or a mass troop conquerors list where you just can't get through their bodies enough for you can make the right list right if you can make and like sure if you're night hunt i agree with you that that which is how you're the lens you're looking through this of course i am yeah but that's not like they are one of the few that can actually run that strat so hard in that direction right right right right but what i'm saying is is if you don't do that they don't have a viable play style because they can't play hunters like that like that's my concern is that they don't have shooting so like so like i'm trying to keep all of our books viable and that requires which which requires some of those armies to play into the conqueror strat totally fair i which i agree i like the ones that i feel like actually i want to see ec favored battle plans i actually want to see more of them i wish the ones that are supposed to actually did yeah is what i'm saying like yeah phoenix guard would be the other big pick right obviously that's another they're they're a hot ec choice uh fear the brutes though with your phoenix guard fear the brutes i mean that that said uh those phoenix guard might just lift the brutes uh i wouldn't yeah always bet on okay the silk steel nests uh eight objectives it's back baby eight objectives okay uh pillaging objectives it's it's objective pillage and it has all the right rules on it that's what i'll say like you can only burn one you have to be close to burn it you can't pillage more than one per turn and has to be one you control and in your opponent's territory it's all the good rules you would want on pillaging so it's not like i burn eight objectives i win the game it's none of that crap right uh then we have this other silly rule that's a hat on a hat that didn't need to be here scuttling horrors after an objective has been pillaged before it is removed from play the player whose turn is taking place must roll 2d6 for each unit within nine inches the pillage objective if the role is equal to or greater than the bravery characteristic of that unit that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds okay there's like i just i don't like this so much and it's so close to a good rule is what bothers me more first of all i do enjoy the scuttling horrors is just an improved cacophonic choir i'm glad that random spiders are more powerful than my greater demons classic spell not not random spiders the table yeah the table has beat with a spell casting of my greater demon great for that love the eight objectives good always challenging interesting love an eight objective scenario i do think it does really interesting things like list building and stuff like that has the appropriate limitations on burning objectives great the bad is the stupid spider attack and ever before i'm going to jump in here before dugs like the spider attack is cool i can hear him already over in iowa okay i agree with you dug narratively the spider attack is cool he didn't even say he said it yet but i'm just guessing the reason i hate it is because it's 2d6 against bravery why why is that what it is when armies like gits and boc and scaven just naturally get to take a bunch of mortal wounds for like no reason but like death armies and starborn seraphon and everybody else who's bravery dead in this stupid game just get to ignore that they'll just they'll just remove and pillage and take no damage basically ever why wouldn't it just be on a four up the unit takes a d3 mortal wounds why did we need to bring extra tests into this because then i don't have to like know the bravery of every unit okay wait what's this one did i get it or not no otherwise you just be four yes or no four yes or no four yes or no it's faster easier smoother uh dug didn't like it i'm misguessed all right well good i'm glad dug all right like that was all this had to be written and then it would have been a perfectly fine little fun kickback on the pillaging it's it it's one stupid thing away from being like it would have been a nine out of ten for me had it just been a four okay yeah excellent mission this is i think scorched earth 2018 some around there and yep it's got all the yeah you said everything talk about this one yeah seven out of ten eight out of ten really good yeah it's still good it doesn't really favor any of the strats it's a pretty neutral scenario i will say something like ec if it favors any of them it would be expert conquerors just because of the sheer number of objectives so like tom we're talking about like soft ec incentives this would be the one i'd pick right because stuff like people who have good mobile ec and stuff like that with eight objectives there's always somewhere sure sure right and that makes them pretty pretty very threatening and powerful so that's good i like that this would be the one i'd include if i wanted to really like be favoring the ec some like night haunt riding along with the boatman love this when they can just show up and be like hey guys we're here now yeah this is mine now this is mine now the ghosts are here all right close to the chest uh it has this thing going on i guess beautiful so bea