fund the salary okay are we ready for the question and the question is shall the town compensate the collector of delinquent taxes by a salary determined by the select board in lieu of compensation by the delinquent tax penalty all those in favor please say aye those opposed article 15 passes article 16 shall the town of Calis enter into communications union district to be known as the central roman internet under provisions of 30 vsa chapter 82 will somebody like to move this article and do we have a second it's been moved and seconded does anybody want to speak to it select board select board member singleton rarer so I can speak generally not being an IT type guy but a fellow by the name of Jeremy Hansen he was a professor a computer science professor at norwich he came up with this idea from berlin he was on the berlin select board and the idea is a program known as bound to participate but essentially it would be like setting up a municipal fire district it would be a municipal entity and this entity would run a a non-profit internet service provider service terminology the idea being that it would be a scalable internet service made available to all the participating communities everybody in the participating communities that is a very high speed very high qualities when I say scalable there will be a minimum megabyte per second upload and download rate at a prescribed amount and if you want to elevate that I think I've heard up to a thousand megabytes per second you can believe it, it's crazy so you could pay a higher fee amount and if you work from home and you want to download pictures and maps and videos and do that kind of production you could do that so this would not be funded out of your taxes it's just that the people would sign up just like you sign up your phone now at their point it would be superior to the service you get through their point I think it's nothing but a win and you can't lose here folks okay we have a hand up to the back if we can get you a microphone I'm Jenny Koba fine then I'm curious as to whether this is location dependent so here they will be running fiber optic cable throughout the town, all the participating towns yeah and again this will boost you know our community in terms of people working out of their home going to be able to do that okay we have a hand up in the middle here hi I'm Jenny Sassman from County Road I think is this the operation that he's also working to guarantee net neutrality in which case what a huge bonus yeah this flyer is available there's an informational flyer it's a little like one side sheet of paper and that might answer some of the questions that you folks might have but one of the commitments is net neutrality what's going on at the FCC is they're going to abandon that and then the ISPs can decide whether or not they want to give away your information it's outrageous so first the NSA and now the ISPs because this is a nonprofit cooperative basically we would set the rules it would be a board and you all could participate in that level of effort but they would have because of operation and what is a guarantee of net neutrality Mary okay I support this I just don't want people to think all of a sudden fighters are going to show up at their house if we're that easy we have it already we've been looking at it as washing an electric car as a vehicle it's difficult but this is a good thing it's under special legislation I believe that this has got an answer to allow towns to do this but it's not going to be instantaneous fighter we have a hand up on this side and then we'll see if we're ready for the question this seems like a really good step forward for Calis really looking forward to the fiber optics coming here since it's been proven by thousands and thousands of studies that wireless technology is completely biologically devastating there can be no argument to that I'm really excited I only have to hear the name Jeremy Hansen and I know the work that he's done is really good and I'm so proud of Calis I'm getting choked up moving forward was positive and so many other positive ways I'm really grateful to be here thank you okay so I'm just going to ask are you ready for the question shall the town of Calis enter into a communication union district to be known as the central Ramon internet under the provisions of 30 BSA Chapter 82 if you're in favor please say aye aye opposed say nay the ayes have it and you have carried past article 16 article 17 shall the town of Calis appropriate 31,448 dollars to purchase a wood chip of 10,000 dollars in grant money for a total cost of 41,448 dollars would somebody like to move this article we had a second and moved and seconded okay we have a hand up in the middle I'm tired I'm hungry I know I was just wondering would you just identify yourself my name is Thomas Meyers from Adamant and my question was I really think that the town does need a wood chipper but I was wondering on the way here some of the town equipment either piece of my failure needs it or woodbury needs it at the same time we all have to have our own I was wondering if it had been looked into whether it's possible to share equipment like that woodbury or piece of my failure yeah we've talked about this on and off with the road crew and we've checked into sharing those when you want to share is when everybody else wants it and we look also into renting one and it's like $3,000 a month to rent it in the town we're to approve the purchase of this chipper the chips could be piled at some location to be determined and then the chips would be available to residents okay I just thought wood chipping wasn't quite as time sensitive as many of the other things right well when you have a storm and things blow down that's when you need to clean things up and hopefully not have to go back it's better to do it right the first time right and there's also competition for the rentals when there's a storm Paul alright Paul hand it again so that seems to be the crux of the discussion here is the timing of this issue and I guess I don't get it because yes of course when there's a storm and there's lives down all over the place the first thing the road crew has got to do is get the roads opened up but I guess I don't understand the urgency once the roads are opened up and the brush, the chainsaw work is done and things are out of the road perhaps piled on the side strikes me as the chipping could happen a month later um you also have the factor of so we're spending somebody's money to get up to 41,000 once you have a chipper you're going to always want to have a chipper so we might as well look at this as an ongoing expense I don't know what the expectancy of a chipper is as far as the $3,000 a month goes I find it hard to believe we need it for a month again how much chipping over one of the hours I rented a six inch chipper before and I had to go through some wood to hurry I guess I'm urging another road on this okay I have any hand up over here seems like in the past I've seen wood piled up and maybe split up it could be split up and say if it's on someone's property on the edge of someone's property then it becomes theirs or somehow it can be given out to people in the community about if we split this wood and give it to people that are in need perhaps I think that would be a great way to go I agree with spending a lot of money and I appreciate that the town needs a lot of good equipment to maintain everything as well as they do but I think this might be one area that we could do without or ask so the man said that it will be chipped later but I think splitting it up and giving it to someone in need in the community or the property owner or joining the town hall would be a better way to go than spending this time of money thank you okay we have another hand up in the grant stand and I'll see if we're ready for this question Mercedes from Jack Hillbrook and I do agree that it would be an on-call if you would be on an on-call expense because you have to think about the storage expense and then maintenance so I think yeah I think how many times or for how long would it be it's not worth to to get the whole equipment we could just bring it out I think it would be cheaper and containing it because there's no rush, no emergency so how many forms like that do we get okay could you hand the microphone back to Alfred Alfred Alfred there I have there's been a lot of times in the snowstorm as we're coming on to spring you'll recognize that when the limbs are all hanging in the road you can't see through them my plow trucks are going through there to smash the windows to get smashed and there's a car out there cutting brush on schedule we can't we have no place to put it anymore two years ago the state closed our stomp dump was on Moscow woods they took that away from us we have no place to store this brush anymore so if we try to pull it up into the woods the best that we can that's a lot more labor there's weights a lot of times there's a steep bank to get it up into the woods so the quickest easiest way is to chip it up into small pieces people can benefit from that stockpile somewhere people can come and get it for their gardens whatever they want in the past I've come to you asking for $200,000 to fit for a truck this is $30,000 it's going to make our life so much easier we're going to be able to clear the corners it's going to be safer I think it's a wise investment as far as the storage we have a place in our shop if we pull storage but it's undercover maybe it's no different than a freighter a dump truck we've got the technology we've got to know how to make things cleaner it's not going to cause any burden on us I would support this start what's the life expectancy somebody asked you'll easily get 20 years out of this machine without any question I mean it's no more than use it it's not like a freighter where it's used 6 months out of the year and like you said maintenance you'll easily get 20 years out of this okay we're going to request to call the question it requires two thirds sorry no it requires two thirds I'd like to make a point of order the question cannot be just shouted out from the board according to robert's rules of order you need to recognize someone and I've been waiting to speak there are a number of people and if you're opposed to calling the question you can just vote no it takes two thirds okay we're going to all those the question now is whether the moderator can call the question if you think I should not and I'm wrong you should vote for the for the motion that's been made here so all those in favor of overruling the moderator we will not call the question please say aye those opposed the ayes appear to have it we want a division okay all those in favor of overruling the moderator please raise your cards okay I'm going to try to do this visually first put your hands down those in favor of calling the question allowing me to call the question is it still allow you to call the question yes okay let me clarify again several people bunch of people voted to overrule the ruling of the chair now I'm asking those of you who do not want to overrule the chair to hold your cards your cards this is not a question of whether we will call the question it's whether we'll have a vote on whether to call the question which will take two thirds so if you'd like to support the ruling of the moderator you can now raise your hands okay and the ruling of the moderator has been upheld I did you did hold your card up you want to do it again okay we'll do it again those of you in favor I've got the floor please sit down that's a question because there's a lot of confusion that's what I'm going to do sir please to be clear if you wish the question is whether to overrule the moderator the moderator heard a request to call the question if you do not want to let me do that that's fine and then we will continue to date if you want to uphold my ruling we will then go to the question of whether or not to call the question it will take two thirds of you to end the debate so those of you who want to overrule the moderator please raise your cards okay those of you who want to support the moderator's ruling please hold your cards up and the ruling is upheld and we'll now go to the question of whether or not we're going to end the debate by calling the question which is not a debatable motion if I sound a little frustrated those of you in favor of ending debate please say aye those of you who want to continue to debate say nay nay is up here to have it and we will continue to debate now you may speak thank you god I understand that this wood chipper would make things easier for the row crew to understand the rationale and I think I'm in support of it what I'm opposed to is the highway operations manager post on front porch forum that says hey don't worry it's already paid for out of the surplus that we had last year so my problem with that is the process which is if you had a surplus that means the taxpayers were overtaxed and it's our money and so you can't just say we got the section of money this has happened before I have protested before there was a surplus of $125,000 one year they bought a pickup truck I'm not saying it's not needed equipment but I'm asking for transparency and to explain this and there's been no talk about where's the money coming from does it add to the tax burden or is it out of a surplus and what are the other options for a surplus if we have one thank you so a point of clarification Craig I'm not sure it was a last time meeting or the one before there was a debate about highway surpluses and it was a decision made by this body, you all to have surplus funds so it's dedicated surplus highway surplus fund so we have surplus tax dollars that were highway related they're supposed to go into the surplus equipment fund and then that is supposed to be utilized for purchases such as this nevertheless because it's an important big purchase for seeking your input on that we have the authority right now to do this without your input because you folks decided that was I'm not advocating one way or the other it was decided so we have 57 plus or minus thousand dollars in that fund we're seeking your approval or disapproval on this idea we're trying to be as democratic as possible and remember this grant money is associated we're hoping to get and it's contingent on getting those grant money further discussion yes sir we'll get the next and you know and I do know my son works for Washington Electric operation management at the garage in the end they have seven different crews that go up and cut right away for Washington Electric and they pay out one crew 100 bucks an hour to chip, that's some crew three guys and they have seven different crews 100 bucks an hour we can't put a crew out there with a truck and three guys for 100 bucks an hour plus those guys are all certified they're certified climbers they have insurance they have a, I don't know, a million dollars or something with coverage we don't, they can't and we, it's heavy heavy maintenance that chipper is heavy heavy maintenance you gotta remember it's cutting fire with wood now we that's, I'm going to vote no one and we voted, what, three, four years ago for that it's crazy to spend that kind of money on the chipper when you're not certified you've got to go to school that thing is dangerous that's dangerous, these guys are all certified 100 bucks an hour you can hire somebody to do it if you want to pay 30 bucks and it ain't going to last 20 years so can I talk about something else? not right now, no, we'll have to wait we'll have other business no, you don't have the floor to talk about something else okay, Donna, you wanted the floor can I clarify Craig's comment when this was brought to the select board to put on the morning it was brought to them with no mention of a surplus that taxes would be raised for $31,448 and it would be contingent on the receipt of $10,000 in grant loans I'm sorry, just a clarification if I could that seems to contradict what John just said no, that's what you just said he will raise taxes well, the highway does have a surplus but this is how it reads in the town report this is how it was brought to the select board there was no mention as the select board was developing this warning about using the surplus are you ready for the question? Barry first of all as president of the board of Washington we pay by we don't pay $100 and the guys are out there doing more checking operation I've got mixed feelings about this but if Alfred and approved support this along with the select board then I'd like to offer an amendment that this be if this is approved to be paid for out of surplus because that seems to be what John indicated so that's my amendment for this to be paid out of surplus is that appropriate? Barry, so you're saying the posting on front board forum unfortunately was not completely accurate and as Donna said when this was brought to the select board and asked us to put it on the warning this is how it read so there is money in the highway equipment fund which is supposed to be used for heavy equipment I don't know how heavy a chipper is but I just want to be clear your amendment is to if we don't if we get the grant of $10,000 and we have the remaining amount of $31,000 are you suggesting that we take it out of the equipment fund? Well I'm suggesting it because that's the indication I got from the discussion today if you guys don't support that then then I will not review that I just want to point out that currently there is $21,591 in the heavy equipment fund plus we have $57,000 surplus that's unaudited so in other words what unaudited means is we're doing for an audit or change that amount depending on the audit I'll change my amendment to say if funds are available in the surplus and the select board feels that's the most appropriate funding mechanism then they'll buy the chipper through that that leads you to the right to do it either way I'm going to support this with a general motion afterwards so if I can understand the amendment it is to appropriate the fund subject both to the availability of $10,000 and to the maximum extent possible to be funded from town surplus funds is that correct? okay we have a second to this amendment okay the amendment has been made and seconded I'm sorry Gus the amendment that I heard was to give the select board the flexibility to choose not that it necessarily comes from the surplus but the select board now has flexibility with which the original article didn't give us so I think in stating it as the maximum extent possible that's the decision the select board will need to make that was my intention in stating it that way and I think that's consistent with what the motion says okay are you ready to vote on the amendment? yes the amendment can be amended I think go ahead let's get you a microphone what I understand the amendment today is that you're putting the discretion in the select board to decide where these funds are going to come from and I just want to either make an amendment to that or clarify that the purchase of a chipper would only be approved if it comes out of an existing fund and our taxes are not raised to pay for that's my okay that there's an amendment to the amendment that requires that the takes away the select board's discretion is the effect of the amendment you need to find the money in an existing fund you mean not using the highway surplus I understand that the highway surplus will be put into the heavy equipment reserve fund which we already have authority so once that surplus I have not physically moved that money yet we'll probably wait until we have it all but it will all be one pot what I understand the person who's made the amendment wants to do is that this $31,000 will not end up increasing the tax rate is that correct but isn't that rude but it only came out of an existing fund but isn't that with various amendments as well we gave this the flexibility either way if you want to give the select board no flexibility you're going to vote in favor of this amendment no flexibility you won't know we'll go back to the amendment those in favor of the amendment to the amendment do say aye those opposed the ayes appear to have it the ayes do have it and you've amended the amendment so we'll now go back to the basic question with the amendment in place we have to vote on the amendment now so the amendment now requires that we use surplus funds those in favor of that we say aye those opposed that passes now back to the basic question of article 17 are you ready for that all I'm sorry the money the water but it's just occurred to me that a $41,000 chipper of chipping that I would rather see if it's on my right way going to my fair place so I don't know this is what I think of as a 6 inch chipper it's more chipper really more chipper than me I rented one of those and all I can do is come back with my pickups from the rental place it's big stuff so I don't know what I'm sorry you need to be recognized and you don't have a microphone so most of us can't hear you so the question as a parent is there an option to say no I'm on the fire there is if you're around I just think this is more chipper than we need so let's pass the microphone over to Alfred so he can answer your question so I don't know if you've seen us cut and brush and kind of trees beside the road we always cut anything that's not even firewood into 3 or 4 foot lengths and pilot beside the road the landowners entitled to that would if they go get it great a lot of times there's scavengers out there that will get it if they don't it's there we do not take wood anywhere off the road we cut it into pieces that folks can't roll and it's there cottonwood or for brush the brush needs to be dealt with that's the biggest thing there it's not the firewood everybody's entitled to their firewood and the brush will go into chips that everybody can bet on I don't this is a small amount of money to spend on something of a large value for a long period of time this chipper will probably go 20 to 4 I'm sure it will go 30 years the maintenance is I mean everybody's talking about the maintenance this is not a high maintenance thing you adjust the hammering you sharpen the blades you keep the motor maintenance this is not a big thing did the woman who was speaking want to say something more you've had just to point clarification when they say a chipper which wood I mean that's its maximum capacity obviously anything smaller than that can run through the chipper what it also indicates to you is the level of duty of the machine if you have something that can handle 6 inch it's a heavy duty machine and it will stand up longer as Alfred had said we've got a smaller one it's not going to last as long so the ump of the machine can handle the next wood a lot of the wood that falls down would be the older trees which would exceed the 6 inch amount and as I see people looking for kindling on front porch farm I'm like wow my mother would stay present every year as my son helps me gather the kindling the brush the stuff that falls off the trees which has happened all year this year and that gets me through the year with kindling so to grind that up reduces the use that could be we could eliminate this cause people could get the brush for kindling it's the best kindling the question has been called takes two thirds those in favor of ending the debate we say aye those opposed the ayes have it and I think we're now on the main question I hope we are shall the town of callous appropriate $31,448 to purchase the wood shipper contingent upon the receipt of $10,000 in grant monies for a total of $41,448 in addition to the amendment that was supported by all of you which means it's got to come out of our existing funds it can't be an increase on your tax rate you're in favor of this we say aye if you're opposed you can say nay the ayes appear to have it the ayes do have it and article 17 is passed it is 20 minutes of one we have two articles to go would you like to keep moving as I announced at the beginning of the meeting we're going to take up article 19 first which is the climate change resolution it reads shall the voters adopt the following callous climate change resolution whereas extreme and erratic temperatures increasingly severe storms arise and tick-borne diseases and threats to farmers and maple sugar clearly demonstrate that climate change is one of the most urgent problems facing our state nation and the world and whereas the state of Vermont has a goal in the comprehensive energy plans to achieve 90% of its energy from renewable sources by 2050 yet is making insufficient progress using that goal now therefore be it resolved and I will not read all of the resolution resolved you've got it in your morning would somebody like to move this article Jenny if it's requested that I read it all I will read it all and we have a second that the town or just the state of Vermont to halt any new or expanded fossil fuel infrastructure including this pipeline firmly commit to at least 90% renewable energy for all people in Vermont with firm interim deadlines and see and sure the transition to renewable energy is fair and equitable for all residents with no harm to marginalized people for rural communities to the town and do our part to meet these demands by committing to efforts such as a protection of town lands from fossil fuel infrastructure denying easements or agreements of any pipeline crossing town lands be weatherizing town buildings and schools see enlisting state support to install solar for town and school buildings D other initiatives to improve residents quality of life while helping us reduce our overall energy use okay with Jenny as the maker of the motion you want to speak thank you I'm Jenny Sassiman and I am speaking this afternoon representing three different nonpartisan volunteer communities in town the Calis Climate Action Team or CCACS the Calis Energy Group and also indivisible Calis all groups which have been working on tackling the climate changes from various points so you know I don't need to give any kind of a speech on the dangers of the threat of climate change it's been brought up numerous times already here today and I know that even though we might enjoy 65 degree weather in the middle of February it also makes us uneasy and worried I just want to make a couple of points one just share a factoid I just saw this morning before I came here that the Arctic is 45 degrees above normal which it should even though it's very far away it should be very concerning to all of us I also do want to stress the nonpartisan nature of this resolution and indeed the whole climate action struggle by pointing out that after the president decided to pull out the Paris Climate Accords our Republican Governor Bill Scott said no Vermont is going to stick with the Paris Climate Accords so this is a bipartisan effort I also want to talk about why it matters for us to vote on this resolution today and I have a chart which nobody's going to be able to see but I'm happy to show it to you all later but when we talk about Vermont not meeting its goals there is a chart that shows what the goals of the Paris Climate Accord is, what the goals are of the Vermont Comprehensive Energy Plan and what we're doing right now and the goals have us going down but actually right now despite all the efforts that many of us are doing locally efforts all across the state in fact our energy use is increasing so we're not going in the right direction by a long shot and if we keep going in this direction we're going to be in deep, deep, deep trouble I've attended meetings where people have said that the whole world is really dependent on the United States to take meaningful, significant climate action and at those same meetings they say and the United States is dependent on Vermont Vermont is really seen as a leader and Vermont of course is made up of all of us all of us towns so it is important I think at this juncture the danger is significant and it is very important for us to make a strong and bold statement that we support doing everything we can just a couple of other points and one is we know that the select board it has a lot on its plate but this would not necessarily involve any extra work for the select board a lot of the work that's been done that's being done is being done by volunteer groups this work can take many many shapes for example the sea cats have been planting an edible garden at Town Hall because growing local food and sharing it with our friends and neighbors is in fact one of the most effective things we can do to cut our carbon footprint and finally I know Barry talked earlier about the issue of metering I don't think that that that we necessarily need to get in the weeds in this that there will be plenty of opportunities to discuss again the provision about doing this in a very and equitable manner and I can share I'm only a sort of a fringe member of the callous energy group but I can share that we have prepared a free preliminary study by a leading Vermont solar company of the potential for solar net meter systems at the school and Town Hall and Town Office buildings and this will be brought up for discussion both with the select board and the school board and the arguments on both sides I think are valuable and significant it could take a lot of time for discussing specifics I guess that's what I have all I have to say okay further discussion on article 19 Barry I've been a supporter of efforts since 1974 and energy efficiency and alternative energy it's how I make my living I told to support the resolution except for the fact that I will say that putting solar on our school which is heated with wood and on the Town Office it may be a field of it's totally it's totally a countering common thought you're replacing renewable energy with renewable energy and if you take a look at item C and C it does no harm to marginalize people and it's fair and equitable when you shift costs from one place to another when it doesn't really make sense to put that much money into systems and can be used for other things I just think it doesn't make common sense I would take that one section out but if everybody wants to leave again I'm afraid about it I'd rather have lunch to go through that so that's just my comments on it for 45 years Is there further discussion on this article? Larry Larry Bush I certainly can't get into the weeds with this but I just wanted to say a couple of things about solar arrays and their role in place and what the hope for time is to do I think and hope that for most people who are interested in doing solar and I'm guilty of having done that I'm learning that no good energy goes unpunished but that's not a story one of the things the main thing we're trying to do is get off fossil fuel I would argue that eventually getting off burning wood too but that's a touchy subject so I'm not going to go there but so if you're heating with fuel oil if you're heating with propane and you're interested in doing something for the environment then you probably want to try to go to something like cool weather heat pumps well I've done that too and so what I can say and you probably know what that does to my electric bill is it tripled basically and I've now got an all EV car all look at them they're expensive, they're efficient, they're incredible I gotta plug it in my garage and I think this is consistent with what I've seen a lot of experts say the strategy for dealing with global warming as an individual is to electrify everything you can so with my massive solar array which unfortunately I think probably is unsightly to some people all that's doing is keeping me from spending 600 plus dollars come on in electricity because now all the fuel oil well not all it's gone but most of it's gone propane's gone and so I would hope with the town if we do succeed in putting solar in it wouldn't just be a stand alone who will replace our electric bill with this we would think more creatively about doing some things to get fossil fuel out of our system for the town as much as possible thanks Fletcher and then we'll go to Rene Fletcher, Rene again I would just like to take into account what Barry said and perhaps I'll manage that line see enlisting state support to install solar for town and school buildings if there's something to do with the most appropriate use of renewable energy as he said we don't want to replace renewable with renewable so maybe and school buildings if needed you don't want to get Barry to lunch anyway I just I think that we don't want to push where it's not necessary as appropriate thank you something to that you want to add the words as appropriate to item C if appropriate okay you have an amendment to the article we have a second seconded is there discussion on the amendment if not all those in favor of adding the words if appropriate to item 2C please say aye opposed the ayes appear to have it the ayes do have it in the amended article 2C are you ready for the main question tanning it is a very difficult situation in Tammulina, North Calus and the thing is that my son keeps reminding me that solar rays also take a lot of minerals from the earth it's unfortunate but true and also the wood that I burn does cause a lot of pollution and a good solution but moving away from fossil fuels is a good start and to add to what Ginny said is that I believe Greenland is melted and that is above us closer than the Arctic so it is a big concern thank you okay are we ready for article 19 now we have a hand here just a point of clarification would you identify yourself please John Rosenblum, Mr. Red just a point of clarification about solar rays I don't want to argue with washing electric but I don't think that I've seen that washing electric has counted in huge copper pipes into the ground to dump power when it's generated so we're not actually replacing renewable renewable what's happening is washing electric I think is selling renewable power at a low cost because I don't have solar rays to maintain that so we're not actually replacing renewable for renewable washing electric selling renewable so if I generate if I put solar panels on my roof which I don't to generate solar electricity washing electric will be forced to sell that probably at a low cost because I'm generating at a low cost at a time when it's not very efficient to sell just as a clarification that it's slightly different we're not losing power here you're not turning off the Coventry plant because we put on TV on the roof of this building so I think that's true are you ready for the question okay can we waive the reading of the article yes alright all those in favor article 19 as it's been amended we say aye those opposed article 19 passes before we take up other business I just want to ask one more time that we thank our Mike Runners Sonny Colt and Avery Cochran have a great job today other businesses to transact any other non-binding business that may come before the meeting that can be announcements it can be just about anything Wilson thank everybody any other business any other business any other business any other business any other business any other business any other business I just want to take a minute and acknowledge the first time he was here on top earlier he went to the center communities and any of us that are getting older If there's any first time voters here, my friend Riley Cook, so just like to mention that Riley is also a volunteer firefighter with, he's my failure fire department. I also wanted to see are there any first time town meeting attendees today, any first time. So we need to really encourage the youth and the young people. And at a personal note, I just want to say this is my 30th consecutive town meeting. Any other business students? Yes, Larry, behind you. I think I could do it without a microphone. No, you can't. What? So much background noise. Larry Bush, I just wanted to say that I think we are best dealing a big round of applause. I would like to announce that I will be the new green up coordinator taking over from flexibility. I have a co-conspirator, Jamie Morby. I'm letting you know about that. If anybody wants to donate to Green Up Day, you can do that on your taxes. There's a line, I forget the number, but please consider that. This year we are also going to potentially have people who are out collecting trash on the look out for invasive species. We might kind of combine our efforts and look for some of those things. So we will, yeah, we'll have some stuff on corporate forum and we'll get in touch with you about that soon. But thank you and yeah, get in touch if you have any questions. David. Okay, we've done it again. We've woodwinked you all into donating food so that you can buy it back at lunch. It's an incredible lunch by Callas's Best Cooks. Come through and all the money goes to the town hall. Okay. Closer. Two reports at the models are missing. It's the green lunch. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, there's also some material out back on the cemeteries if you want to know more about that. Any other announcements? Any other business? Motion to adjourn has been made and seconded. All those in favor of adjourning, get on my lunch. Thank you.


What's going on everyone? Sam here with late in sports cards. We're doing 2022 Panini select draft picks football hobby 12 box full case break number one random division style Here's a look again at your divisions As always you can find these on the website under the results tab as well as a link and chat. Let's get into it good luck here everyone again, all of the Base or the college base will be random off to one division at the end Unless it's something numbered or an autograph in that scent in that case. We will do separate randoms for each card but all of the base and the silvers of like rice young cj stroud Jokovac Phil Jokovac and Tyler van dyke will all be random to one team or one division Because it's just too much to do multiple randoms on that But if it is an auto or something numbered it'll get its own random Same with like points points. I'll get their own random Don making dinner out there Smells good, man Smells good Redemption is Zachary Carter. No idea where Zachary Carter is. Let's take a look Oh Cincinnati bangles afc north. There you go travis mackerel George car leftist the 149 silver kenneth walker mackerel again, silver brissol travis kelsey ricky williams back to my visions I'm doing pretty well. No complaints here Up any black coming up next No, I don't think so. I think he's in black Brock purdy. This is going, uh, nfc west with the niners Devin Lloyd jags ryan tannahill, george carlaftis Rissol Zeke Elliott cave on civito owner of the dimsdale tibitone See them get that reference either Trae Mcbride nfc west on the youth explosion auto dk mackf purple trevor Lawrence to 75 silver clinton portis turbo charge kenneth walker There's a brice young that'll be our first in our base pile brissol and mcbosa. I'll do it for box one Hey, thanks for becoming a member. Levi. Levi. Levi. What's up our, uh, resident jackass fan There's an empty Nothing on the bottom there Got sky more afc west nice one there. Congrats afc west the youth explosion auto Kyle hits Kyle hamilton afc north to 49. There you go trev Jalen watermark aidan hutchinson turbo charge chrysalavut waddle and adams kenneth walker nfc west nice one there nfc west eric c doing well in that spot Eli johnson does been ridder to 199 silver drake london field level Dotson smith cup Yeah, a lot of new members tonight. It's awesome, man. Uh cam taylor britt cam taylor britt i feel like he I've heard that name before Bangles cam taylor britt Going to the bangles. Yeah, kenneth walker is good, man. He is really good. There you go nfc north jake fergusson daven cook purple nfc north 74 out of 75 silver mac uh philger covet that's going random And digs cheese dude I don't know how I fell behind so far It's brutal, man. Really? Yeah. I really do not know how that happened. Uh Can we see the rock birdie really quick? It's an auto Uh points coming up here random to all at the end separate random Rock birdies just not numbered Just a regular silver Sam howl tray mcgride zack wilson came on tibitode numbers Kenny pickett silver base No, this is uh select draft picks Got a gold's coming up here of Zemir white going to the afc west nice one there Grat's afc west orange shawn alexander came on tibitode red silver miles garret picket rookie corral jackson Now we won't do a recap not gonna do a recap on this one guys. We are behind so I do not know how I fell this far behind Kobe Bryant nfc us for seattle Uh kenneth walker going to the nfc west again seattle trevor lorence jamis winston silver picket turbo charged Dotson mohomes julio It's reversed uh I know we gotta hit a cj shroud auto that'd be sick. It'd be so sick or a brice young 21 h2o g's man. I didn't realize h2 was that expensive from this year Redemption is jordan davis. That's going to the nfc east nfc east on the jordan davis auto purple erin rogers to 75 payton manning silver marino kenneth walker tom brady tomorrow Brady will sleeve Ish gotcha K-bond tibitode those are sleeve get that file right there k-bond tibitode nfc east Malik willis nice to 199 sauce gardener a jabbo silver chris olave trelon berks and base silver kairan williams Uh, that is not numbered go into the nfc west. We got a gold clinton portis. Nice one there six out of ten Derrick stingley jr. Brian robinson jr. Silver reese hall cj shroud that'll be in our random pile Ross and alan H2 around 400 450 ish. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Yeah Louis sine that's going to the nfc north with the vikings gold payton manning. There you go afc south four out of ten. Nice one there Phillip rivers going to the afc west stingley or derrick henry uh trelon berks number silver k-bond tibitode ronde barber and terry bratchel Matt liner, that's kind of sick nfc west That's really cool. Daub and cook Uh, jerry rice pulsar nfc west trebon walker silver afc south stingley silver Garrett wilson silver Drake london cd land Kind of just lines like three and we've got kyle hamilton afc north.  He's like what's going on with. Yeah, it's it's bad. Yeah, that's not good. Um, the redemption's afc north as well Cool. Cool. Cool. All right on to the next one here kid on nfc south arnold abakite nfc south romeo dobs silver desmond ridder radie garret wilson moss david bell that's afc north for the browns nice one there mike evans to 149 sam howell field level shawne alexander kind of the walker sam howell base Probably did not learn anything at usc. That is true shorts. Probably did not Probably did not learn how to write his name Uh, 1500 points. Wow pretty solid actually there. That'll be a random to all at the end grok rodwoodson uh, silver mica parson's picket rookie Kenneth walker and base That's travis you and chat. I believe We have I think you see that travis. I don't know if you're still in here Someone's uh asking for that cam taylor auto to sell it more points 150 That is a j brown pulsar troi palomalu treylon berks sparks And base is germain johnson afc east Marshall fault josh allen white to 35 nice one there afc east cd silver Stroud going to our base pile Garrett wilson base Yeah, levi and youtube chat asked if uh cam taylor autos for sale Uh, josh job. Where's josh job at? Eagles so nfc east josh job John mechie uh afc south jamal charles afc west silver td picket rookie treylon berks and base next box uh, tyler goodson nfc north Uh, clinton portis red jaylon watermeyer jessen ross silver silver kenneth walker sparks geez brutal zebra Arnold ebbakite Go into the nfc south with the falcons nice one there Uh, k. Levan chassan. That's going to the afc south as well is a jaguar Uh burrow afc north to 199. There you go K some hill tie-dye drake london very nice 22 out of 25 javon curse And garratt wilson Some strong color wheel kenny picket very nice.  Yeah, I do like to look at the color wheels uh russia wilson They make them so hard to hit and select hobby dude. Oh my god I've probably opened and seen like 30 cases open. I think i've hit one I think i've hit literally one uh pierr strong jr. AFC east Trevor lorns Sorry rich Trevor lorns eric dickerson Uh to 199 Going to the nfc south. I believe kyle amilton silver We've got chris olave on the sparks going to the nfc south jake plumber michael parson's phil uh Just look that one up where's kyle philips? uh Titans afc south There you go afc south No, i'm not in trouble. Sam howell justin jenperson to 75 Got justin ross on the silver john mechie sparks matt corral isiah spiller jamar chase tom brady All right next one here, uh, silver karson strong. That's going back to the nfc east There you go nfc east tom brady a nfc south to 199 on the field level Uh, that is pulsar kyle mack Bailey zappy nice one there for the afc east Reese hall idin hutchinson Garrett parson's evans nikobe dean that is nfc east by way of the eagles orange julio nfc south Uh, 13 out of 49 red kenneth walker nfc west to 149 nick chubb on the silver field level cj stroud going to our baseball Kenny picket silver on the numbers tiki barber jerry rice tray lumbers chianti ingram i know he's in the nf l i just don't know where arizona cardinals chiante ingram nfc west on the silver auto not numbered matt ryan that's afc south mack jones silver randy moss cave on tibode silver george pickens on the selections or sensations jake fergusson josh jacob's yes, we're good there i was gonna say i put those all just close next one mechie stafford, uh, we've got eric uh barrier, i think that's how you say it eric barrier. Let me see this one serriere is He was these on the michigan panthers Uh, whence a rookie minicamp with the denver broncos that'll go broncos afc west afc west on the eric barrier Brett farve red to 149 jerry rice on the pulsar silver patrick mahomes brady matt corral silver phenomenons tremolo and derrick stingray he doesn't use the cards what's up? that was for um the last guy we had to look up jober no chiante ingram chiante ingram it's bailey zappy youth explosion there you go afc east congrats on the zappy hour auto nice one there a j brown to 199 going to the af or no fc east forgot he's an eagle now it's weird jaylen watermine sandhouse silver kenny pickett sparks rookie gary wilson supercharged rookie jj walt tj walt max crossbeam last pack we've got randon peters i feel like he might be college still randon peters free agent uh chargers so afc west he was signed to the uh undrafted free agent was waived on august 15 so now i go chargers kevin loyd is uh 275 nice tie-dye kenneth walker that's going to the um nfc west silver terry mclauren uh kenny pickett silver kenneth walker faker mayfield chris olave john and last box of the break is metcalf uh dustin crumb let me double check on crumb again forget where he was wrong one i know he was somewhere and not that he's on uh the canadian football league or something uh chiefs so this will go afc west for the dustin crumb youth explosion not numbered tiggy barber that's garret wilson to 199 silver treyland's uh john dotton silver sam howell kenny pickett rookie elie manif and justin herbert youth explosion jaylen tulbert that's nfc east with the uh cowboys bailey zappy nice one there uh afc east dalvin cook red at field level to 149 painted manning silver chris olave sam howell paul malo whiteamona and chase young that is Jerome ford afc north with the um uh browns that's mike evans karsten palmer uh tasam hill silver cj stroud that'll go in our random pile chris olave numbers saints the andre hawkins javon curse and dk metcalf uh all right guys let's do a random here so we've got our stack of college base nothing super notable in these so it's just stroud young jerkovik and uh bright and uh and bryce young we've got uh 1500 points and then we've got two 150 points let me set up a random really quick with our divisions come on there you go college cards points all right guys so the way this will work we'll do two separate randoms the first one will be for all of our college stuff um we're gonna roll the dice i'm gonna go 12 times on each one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven and twelve we'll go to the nfc south we'll get the college cards and then the way the points will work is the um top will get 1500 and then two and three will get 150 apiece so we're gonna go 12 times on that one too over those oh sorry two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven and twelve afc east with 1500 and then the 150s will go to the nfc west and the afc north all right guys that'll do it for the break thanks again for the film next up we've got panini black


Hello and welcome to our next talk. Our speaker is Kevin. He's a security consultant and he will tell us how to prevent our own phones from spying on us. Therefore, a very warm welcome to Kevin and enjoy the talk. Thank you very much for introducing. Yeah, well, it seems to be quite a topic. I'm surprised that so many come here to this little room. I'm happy to see you all as smartphone security. How came we into touch with it? Of course, with the news all the last years, it's really a big issue. What we are doing, my name is Kevin. As already mentioned, we are making tests most of the time in the OT environment and industrial areas. We check security according to different rules and standards. We also make some consulting work for the safety of the industrial espionage. This talk now is about technology. We will see products, but this is not a sales talk. We will discuss the technology that is under the product. So we have to keep this in mind and we just want to share a little bit of the experience we made from, yeah, you will see. Smartphone security, counter surveillance for mobile phones. What do we expect the next 25 minutes? After what we have a little bit question and answer. First, how smartphones are hacked? Not too much in the technical detail. How, but what is possible? And then common techniques to prevent this. We have a lot of spy software for smartphones available around. We just have to Google it and we have a lot of functions possible for everyone today to buy and to have these apps. Of course, if we have to deal with government agencies or really industrial companies who have much more power behind them than just to download an app from the app store, we have much more difficulties as we will see. But the basic function of all smartphone spyware software is this what we can see here, the audio surveillance and is possible to listen to audio calls. That can be a phone call, but also a call via app, WhatsApp, whatever. It's also possible to activate the microphone into the room if the mobile phone is hacked. So you can, if the phone is on the desk in the home office or in the conference room, you can listen what is going on in this room. Additionally, standard technology is position tracking. You can have access to all the pictures stored on the smartphone. You can read all the text messages, even if it's from some instant messages. You have access to the social media activity, what happened. And what is also critical in sophisticated programs, you can also place files on the victim's smartphone in order to change proof, for example. So everything of this is possible, but today we just concentrate on this one function, the live audio surveillance and the audio recording because we discussed today what practical possibilities exist to prevent smartphones being used as bugs. One function we see in this spyware is also the fake switch off mode because 10 years or 20 years ago we could say, okay, we take out the battery of the smartphone and it's safe. Today it's not possible to take out the battery and even if we switched off the smartphone but it is compromised, then we think it is switched off, but it's in fact not. So this is not really a solution. What have we seen in the last couple of months going on with hacked smartphones? Yeah, many things were in the news. For example, Emmanuel Macron, his smartphone was spied on with a well-known software that we will read many times now. In Spain, this is from last week. It's a big trouble going on because many people from the parliament, from the government were spied off the smartphones were hacked. Big goals are also many journalists. And this is also from last year. And this is an interesting, how to say, goal for companies or for countries to spy on journalists to get the information where they have their sources from with whom do they communicate and what information do they really have. So this is something we regularly see and a big part, person of interest, so to speak, are human rights activists. And on many smartphones from people working for human rights, we see spyware. One thing we have to know, it is impossible to completely secure a smartphone or a smart device from the software side. A smartphone is about the smart we can discuss, but it's a computer. And every computer you can have, somehow you can get root access. And if you have root access, you have access to the microphone. And even now in the new software versions, you see, for example, if the microphone is accessed to, you have a small yellow spot in the corner of the display. But I would not trust too much to it because if you have access to the computer, you cannot also manipulate this. And by the way, by accessing the microphone, it's not important what kind of software you use to communicate. If you have a completely encrypted voice call via signal or something, it's okay. No one can wiretap it on the line. But if you have access to the microphone of the device, you have it in clear text, so to speak. So we know it's impossible to make a secure smartphone. It was not possible 20 years ago, not 10 years ago. We are not optimistic enough to say in five years it will be possible. And this headline here was interesting. Also Apple realized it, and what they do is they hardware from the hardware side switch off or disconnect the microphone because they don't trust that even in their programming, someone else could maybe access the microphone. So systems will always be hacked somehow. And it was already a very interesting talk about, for example, this Pegasus hardware came to the iPhone, how the different generations of this software used the exploits to come to the iPhone. It's very, very interesting to read it, but 20 minutes are definitely not enough to speak about this. Some weeks ago, we had from the German radio station, TV station, Bayer Schoenfunk test, they were programming an Android app. So it was not by a secret service, it was just computer geeks programming Android app to access the microphone, and it worked, so just like this. So this is nice to have this kind of TV shows to strengthen a little bit the awareness for the people what is possible with the little device we have in our pocket. To summarize who is affected, potentially everyone, it could be from the stocking, the expo's who is spying on someone who is downloading an app and tracking and listening to the room. It's economic espionage is a big, big, big number of dollars or euros that are lost there, of course, of a Wirtschaftspionage. Journalists are spied on human right activists and politicians, of course. Platform is completely independent. Android, iOS, other things, since smartphones exist it was possible to do and it will also be the thing in the future. How can a phone be used as an audio bug? So we said we don't concentrate on reading messages or reading the emails because this is always possible. But how is it possible to access the audio from a phone and buy this, the audio of the room? So online it's possible to have the live transmitting of audio and video. So the attacker is making a connection to the smartphone and is live listening what is going on in the room. This is for cheap apps possible or easily compromised smartphones. Other things are also possible. A recording of audio and video without that you know it or acoustic triggered recording of audio or time-based recording of audio if I know 10 o'clock is the conference so I make a timer that it's recording the audio. And this attacks have the, for the attacker the advantage that there's no online connection necessary. So basically the smartphone can be in flight mode or it can be completely shielded. It could be completely cut off of the network and it will still work. What's also possible listening to key words and transmitting the audio or trigger with key words a speech-to-text engine. And we have many things that are not proven but many things that are going in this direction that this is also actively used because if you have a phone that is listening to the room which is quite normal right now with artificial intelligence of realizing if a glass is breaking or the fire alarm is going on or whatever so it's listening to the room. It is triggered by key words and is making the text into a text file encrypted and sending away the text three hours later via the Wi-Fi this little packet of text is going away it's practically impossible to detect. So to find this on the fly is practically impossible and all of these attacks are possible while the smartphone is offline. So even if I have it shielded completely. So we see big enemy so to speak what are possibilities to fight against this. So basically there are three attempts to make it software solutions then a hardware solution based on shielding the electromagnetic field and a hardware solution based on shielding the audio. So these are the main areas where many companies go to make their products around it. So for the software we have to say I have to switch now a little bit of the chip better. Okay, hey cool it's still in there. Because for some things I was a little bit afraid to download the pictures so I just make kind of live googling. So if we look for anti-spy app we find a lot and these apps basically mean not necessarily something because they can of course some of them can really detect things that happened but if the smartphone is already compromised the smartphone can also switch off this kind of apps and the other thing is sophisticated spyware like for example Pegasus they detect this kind of tracers and they can on one side eliminate them and eliminate themselves so they don't leave almost any trace on the smartphone after detected. That was the wrong thing. I wanted to make here. For us it's kind of an open source tool to detect if Pegasus is installed is here from the MBT the lower link. By this it's possible to detect if the smartphone was compromised already. To make it short the software solutions the apps we can download for prevention it's not really good. For detection it works somehow. What we also have is the hardware solution and there if we find things in the internet like for example these tracking sleeves they make advertising with it anti-electromagnetic field and you put the smartphone in kind of a sock or whatever it is and they say ok it's shielded from the network so it has no connection to wifi to bluetooth to mobile phone network and by this it is secure you cannot listen to the room. They are actually as good as they look if you try it they are pretty cheap about 9 euro you can buy them I don't want to make advertising for some of the sellers here but they are very funny companies existing but basically you can ring your own smartphone when it's inside the sleeve. So for that it has for sure GSM connection or 4G connection or whatever so it's not completely shielding and the other challenge with this is even if they would shield completely they would not filter the audio so you could still make kind of offline attacks with it. What other possibilities do we have? So this we saw already yeah it does not a shield audio and bluetooth and GSM does work then we have some interesting hardware shielding cases they look like this and here we go a little bit deeper so this is live on the internet and for example if you take this it should be the same like this we see do we have a better picture here this is actually the same kind of thing I just use this one here we see a big case inside the case is another case of stainless steel with very good electromagnetic shielding qualities and these shielding cases are really tested also in an EMC laboratory and they work surprisingly good so if you have a phone inside this device nothing is coming out and nothing is coming in from the radio frequency so no bluetooth connection no GSM connection and nothing these suitcases are usually used if you have a conference in a big company DAX 30 or DAX 40 and so everyone has to give his phone to the men on the desk and they are put into this case and you can be sure no one is transmitting audio from inside the room outside they work the challenge with this is no audio shielding so if this case is in the same room with the people who are talking it's still possible that audio is going to the phone and record the audio from the room to transmit it later so this is not a practical solution in many cases of course it's heavy you don't want to have it when you are going and the last thing is many people have a problem to give away their phone so if you sometimes we don't have a chance if you go to another embassy or whatever we give away the phone but if you are in a conference and you have to give away your phone especially in the security environment it's not the best thing many people are happy with but however this is very common a solution that many companies do and the next thing I wanted to show you is a audio solution here it's called PELTA and this I have live here and I wanted to use this chance to introduce you what these people made it's kind of an audio jamming box no, perhaps to no and this is designed to put the smart phones inside and for two smart phones to put inside and there exists an audio jamming inside the box the thing is the audio jamming is not put it here you cannot hear other solutions are also on the market where you hear the audio in the room but even this supersonic digital audio jamming noises have a physiologic affecting our body in a way so this is a little bit difficult and the people who made this product they made kind of a digital audio signal that is killing the AD WANLA the analog digital WANLA oh, my brain is going off from the smart phones and even these highly sophisticated microphone arrays of modern smart phones with seven MEMS microphones it's possible to kill so to speak so in practical things the smart phone is inside the box it's not shielded against radio frequency so you can still hear it if it's ringing but the smart phone itself does not hear any noise from outside and if you like later we can try it outside and this is why I have it here because if you find things that do not work it would be funny to find it out because we tried it with many networks and with many microphones and it was really so that the audio was completely shut down depending on the network provider if it's a telecom for example or someone else we had even the effect that the noise was interpreted from the provider as a noise so it was cut off completely so the other one heard nothing and on the other provider the other one heard just the digital noise so it's an interesting solution for that we would be interested if this kind of hardware or solution as kind of technology would work to strengthen the security of vulnerable people in this regard because it would be a technology that is affordable for people that is possible to keep on the home office to keep in a conference without giving away the mobile phone and that gives not only psychological security but real security because it's literally not possible to listen into the room no matter if it's an offline or online attack it's not possible to prevent smartphones from being hacked it was not in the past, it's not possible right now and it will not be in the future and I hope that by searching and making research into this direction we find some possibilities to make this a little bit more safe for the future this was the information about the technologies what do you think what are your questions in this regard first a big round of applause and then we have a small Q&A and the first question is already here so I will give it to you on the microphone do you need power to use the device or is it still just passive so for this device specifically this needs power it has a TZ-Holstecker so there's no intelligence inside nothing that can be hacked so no USB something but it needs power it needs 18 volts something like this any more questions so do you think this problem could be also solved with a hardware switch built in in the phone that switches off the microphone in hardware this is what some do not only for phones so Apple made it with the iPad and other manufacturer of for example smart displays for the wall for example anti-spy version of the display and it's nothing with the software it's just that no microphone is inside because even they cannot trust that if a microphone is built inside the device no one can access it so yeah it is a solution if you can really switch it off with smartphones it's another challenge because you don't have only one microphone inside you have many you have an array a lot of Apple is very sophisticated in the noise cancelling in this regard so they have really the little phase shift digital analyzes inside it's crazy what they are doing so just to switch it off in a smartphone is a challenge but if it's possible it will work yeah by the way for the technology it's very interesting if you want to go deeper in how our Devanla could be bricked or how smartphones microphones work and how they are what they are able to do most of the microphones used and smartphones are MEMS microphones this if you google it you find the technology but interestingly not a lot of manufacturers of these MEMS microphones exist on this world so you can count them on two hands so that means that all smartphone manufacturers use more or less the same microphones and if you download the data sheet of the MEMS microphone you see surprising technical specifications for example it's possible to listen to blah blah blah in a radius of seven meters so they are really highly sophisticated hardware yeah it was more than the answer to the question but yeah okay any more question yes in the back there okay people said that if the smartphone is in flight mode it collects even more data with regard to the motion and other things or even audio triggers do you recommend to switch off or switch to flight mode when you put it into this device or not can you confirm that this is true that in flight mode there is more data collected so this was meant in the connection if the smartphone is compromised and is on flight mode it's still possible to record the audio in the room and for that of course the biggest problem is that it is compromised the smartphone you can have different approaches in preventing the room of getting wiretaps so for example if you're at home it makes no sense if you're working in a home office or the Deutsche Bundestag it makes no sense to put it in flight mode because you have to be reachable but you could put it in the box and if someone rings you you still hear it because you hear audio from the box but the smartphone cannot hear what is going around if you're in a conference and you have the device on your desk so this specific device then it makes also sense to have it not in flight mode because you can see if someone is calling but no one can listen however depending on the security level it's usual today that not only for conferences the smartphones are collected and shielded but also the complete room is scanned and monitored and for that it makes again sense to have it in flight mode because we have to know the people have to know what phone or what radio peak is legitimate and what not so it depends on the security on the risk management behind but both can be reasonable thank you any more questions yes again is there something that makes phones more easy to compromise than laptops for example depends how much money have your enemies basically computer is a computer it's a very good question but I don't want to answer it from a technical I want to answer it from a philosophical way because we know for example for phones exists Pegasus and we know the danger and we know the kind of spyware and we know that Google and Apple they are always trying to prevent the zero days and to be very good in the latest updates there is always a possibility to jailbreak it basically the same that spyware is doing but this is what we know actually I would not be so much afraid of what we know I would be more afraid of what we do not know and this affects also the computers so yes and no okay anyone okay it doesn't look like it then another big round of applause for Kevin