Okay, good evening folks Dustin is out today, so I have the rare pleasure of being your acting chair this evening all the meeting to order Staff or commissioners are there any amendments to the agenda? Okay, so that's on the Anything else? Okay Hearing none. We'll go to public comment This is the opportunity for anyone in the audience to Speak to the Commission on any item that is not on the agenda Yes, ma'am. Could you just identify yourself for the record? I'm sorry your name again hi And I live in Essex and I'm really concerned about The mall the outlet mall I Just can't approve of how many stories Apartments that the owner wants to put in and if anything, you know box stores or little stores They just aren't doing very well anymore So my feeling is that he just wants to just get in there and put all these apartments in and Just for his benefit because how are we going to benefit from that just from a procedural standpoint so There's no Formal application for any proposed development at the Essex outlets at this point the applicant came in for a Conceptual discussion which is allowed under the regs so You what you'd want to do is I mean Sharon will obviously capture this But if you want to have that kind of comment impact a Future development application you'll want to participate when it actually comes in if it comes in as an application And then you can your comments would be recorded and considered as part of the application right now all that's happened is Is some discussion and you're aware of the Essex Town Center work that's being done the study and community focus groups So go ahead and the Essex Town Center is a group that's envisioning a wider spread than just the shopping center area and what is going to be done and Next Wednesday From four to seven there is an open house presentation. That might be a good time to come I'm not going to be here with Dana. Can tell me where it is Right here But that would be a good time to come and hear what some of the other Ideas are for that and and to make your views known to another group people also If if the applicant ever does get to the point where there's an application file There will be many opportunities to weigh in throughout the process Anything else? Okay. Thank you anything from you, sir I'm working on that you guys you probably have more experience than I do Any other public comment? Okay, then what I would ask is anybody who is speaking on behalf of the Next application the public hearing if you're gonna be presenting or offering anything at all if you would just please stand and be sworn in Anybody else speaking on the application? No, just one. Okay. Well, then I guess I'm just swearing you and it's painless Do you swear the testimony you give is gonna be honest and truthful of the best of your ability? Okay, great. Thank you. So next up number three is the site plan public hearing for Richard Struble seeking to construct a 6400 square foot multi-tenant commercial building including other site improvements located at 50 goth here drive in the industrial I1 zoning district tax map 9 parcel 3-23 lot 50 Would you like the applicant to go first or would you like to go first I think let's let the applicant go first Give us a quick overview of the project So yeah quick overview of the project and on the staff report just any Areas of the staff report that you have issue with you don't have to go through the whole staff report And if you want me to flip down any plans on the screens to so the audience can see I can I've got them all up here If you would just identify your name for the wreck sure Greg bombardier This is the third It's like I was just here Basically what we've got we're over in goth here industrial part Kind of drew a diagonal line with the sports and fitness edge on One corner. This is in the way out back. It's on the slope lot 6400 square foot three tenant building 25 parking spaces currently a valid back to the 50 permit state of Vermont portable water supply and waste water permit stormwater all of our Insiliary permits are still still valid in place and we're here tonight to request Re-approval of the project is presented. I've read through the staff notes There really aren't any issues that I that I see with regard to some other requests One of the requests from the fire chief No, he doesn't like the fact that we've got this bank in the back, but we really don't have much choice I mean this this lot is a is a slope lot You've got to cut into the side of the bank and establish a retaining wall in order to flatten the building path He doesn't like it. He wrecked he recommended that the building be sprinkler In fact, we've always anticipated the building to be sprinkled. So that that was a non-issue Apparently we had we had one one shrub or tree mislabeled on our landscaping plan that needs to be adjusted and there was a request for a tree in one of the Highlands as opposed to a shrub a little bit of modification to our previous landscaping plan no issues Not much the only thing that and I'm not I'm not really taking issue with it. We've been in This is like I said, it's my third time We've submitted the project a number of times and there were there were some Conflict there was some conflicting information in They talked about there only being one light on the site when in fact there were 17 or something we've got building mounted lights. We've got coal lights in the parking lot We discussed drainage and you can see over at that plan on the wall. I've got the building in blue and all of the Impervious surface from the building in the parking lot ends up in that attention pond in the upper corner that's also shown as blue It was just you know, they were looking at old plan or old review notes, but all that stuff That's about all I have it's the same project in the same spot We didn't really see anything That was Something that we would take issue with in the staff Commissioners any questions of the applicant before we go to staff Sounds like the applicant is Beverly leaves with the staff report and that's all that I had to say The only thing I would say to the Commission is that you could condition the building be sprinkled But if they're putting it in any way, maybe not be necessary, but it's not up to you We don't have any ability to regulate it so In the fire chief is Signs off completely if it is sprinkled. That's what he says so, okay what about 370 To where Dennis is taking issue with the plans needing to be updated. Has that actually Is there still some confusion there because that memo was just a couple weeks ago so I believe as the Applicants said everything that public works was concerned about was actually addressed. I put that in there to Copy and paste from public works of that that was Picked up, but I didn't I think the elevation of the culvert and the drainage and the issue with the Hey bales being used as Erosion control have all been addressed. So I think they just didn't catch that in the new plans Any questions of staff before we open the public hearing? Okay, take a motion to open public hearing move. We open the public here All those in favor aye opposed public hearings open is anybody from the public have any comments Now I got a swear you in well go ahead and give me a comment So it's off of takes Susie Wilson Road take a left to go towards Blakeley Okay, I got it on the right there by the edge. Thanks Sweet Take a motion to close the public hearing Motion second all those in favor Ned the floor is yours. I I didn't see I'm the site utility plan any fire hydrants are there any is there a fire hydrant off the water line in that area anywhere I Just I couldn't see Carefully probably be on seat 3 here Where's the nearest the nearest hydrant? Do the building? Yeah, if the fire chief has a concern it would be nice to know Up here we go. It's a hydrant here. Okay, so it's right down here Yeah, I zoomed back out So you have a hydrant right there All right, good idea to have the condition Is is there room around the other three sides of the building he says the notes in the staff report says We can't can't even use ground ladders or have sufficient standing room on the remaining sides of the structure so with the Reinforcing you're doing at the slopes in the area You have the ability to provide Some room there for firefighting the two Two sides of the building. There's some room on the right And clearly there is a bunch of room on the top. I guess if the chief wanted to fight a fire on the back of the building Probably have to put his equipment up and Scott Planks parking lot up above on the top of the slope and rain down on it Any other questions of staff or the applicant anyone prepared to take a stab at this application or if you got your drive the addition of one Condition that the building be sprinkled does it have to be this is sprinkler have to be inspected and accepted that there's a statement Okay, so Can I offer a friendly amendment before we Go to discussion. Can we just do something under around 404 just noting that at the At the meeting the applicant and staff both both noted that the inconsistencies noted by public works have been addressed And as long as we're confident, I just want to make sure you hear that those are Is that all right? Yeah, and that the fire chief Was okay with the plan if it was sprinkled That doesn't really say that We accept that from the amendment No, then I don't think there are any landscaping changes the island That's in the staff report the applicant is just saying they're okay with it Oh, no, not in the plans I'll just I'll just put that usual blurb on your one So did did that get caught here? Is there okay condition three is there for the landscaping changes? Okay, perfect. Thank you All right, any further discussion All right, hearing none all those in favor I Opposed motion carries. All right. Thank you, sir Mr. Duggan Welcome Yeah, and so just so the rest of the commissioners know, um Dustin and I did attend the select board meeting for Dennis Lutz's presentation on uh On this and what was the I'm already forgetting what the other topic was he did two things did the Water model thing. That's right. Water modeling. Thank you Water model and they were both uh, Dennis did a really nice job on on both of those So but you don't get Dennis.  I'm sure I would do But I cannot try to keep it short So just quickly this is uh, I'm going to be presenting a proposed sidewalk impact fee to you tonight. Um What I'm hoping to get out of it is just some general feedback Uh, as well as your thoughts on what an appropriate fee might be there's going to be a breakdown of different possibilities different range of fees And also there's a possibility of um, if the ordinance is ultimately adopted Uh, to write in some waivers, um for various things. So you can keep that stuff in mind as we Go through it Now this is basically I think I've mentioned it in the past that we were working on this back when I was sitting and Darren seed over there Um, but it's kind of a culmination of two things. Um, one of them that One of them being that um situation that you're all too familiar with when You're reviewing development applications subdivisions Um, what have you and and the question comes up of there should be a sidewalk along a certain street, but Who's going to pay for it? Um, is the developer required to put it in is the developer required to just provide an easement Um, leave it at that for the town to deal with in the future as the developer required to Give an easement and also contribute some sort of funds towards future sidewalks, um, certainly when I was Working with you guys so in working on staff reports. It was always a struggle to figure out which to apply when Um, just recently some ones that come to mind were route 15 with the co-board property on upper main street and I traffic area desperately needs a sidewalk, but Um, it's in the town plans. Uh, that's an area that that should have a path in it of some sort But struggled with figuring out work to acquire what to require the applicant to do and put in Um, garden side lane is another one that project that's going up now at the corner of susie wilson bypass and The circ and route 2a There's a question there of should there be a sidewalk installed in front of the project? Should there be an easement put in? Um, should there be a sidewalk installed further down the road to connect to that project? Uh, I think we landed on getting an easement with a sidewalk or they um Uh fee towards a future sidewalk in that area Um, so part of it this whole project is to hopefully resolve some of those issues and just come up with a standardized every project has to Pay x amount of dollars based on the fee for the sidewalk impact fee um, the second thing this brings in is the, uh Town and village bicycle pedestrian plan that was adopted about two and a half three years ago um, that was sort of the basis for Identifying some of the priority sidewalk projects and and doing some calculations that i'll get into in a little bit Uh to sort of take a look at that and and say, you know, there's a plan in place um for some priority sidewalks and This report is sort of going to be based off, uh The results of that planning process that came that was done a few years So with that in mind um Dennis lets public works department, uh got a grant with the regional planning commission. They hired rsg Um an engineering firm to to do most of the work to get the consultant on this Um, so they presented the select board meeting the other night, but like I said, you have me tonight Just quickly an impact fee is a fee that's levied as a condition of issuance of a zoning or subdivision permit Um used to cover any portion of the costs of an existing or planned capital project that will benefit or is attributable To the users of the development or to compensate the municipality for any expense it incurs as a result of construction Um, it's permitted by remod statute. We have a recreation impact fee right now. Um This is you know has to be based on findings based on data based on Uh a need for infrastructure that the report gets into as we go through this Does that let you collect a fee to use somewhere else? So like garden side if they collect the fee from them to build a path on the other side Yep, yep, if it's set up and this is the idea that um, this will be set up is that identifies 5 10 15 Priority projects, but everyone would pay and do it. So whether it's garden side lane, whether it's uh Homes at the end of old stage road or shape and road that are never going to see a sidewalk It's it's still might be using those sidewalks and areas that they're more appropriate It's somewhat of the recreation impact fee, um Which you know can get a it's applied to residential development and Is then yeah, we turn into that I think I think I think the Is Check in the language, uh, make sure they transcribe You might want to check out what's called the rational nexus part of that statue, which is that indeed The fee that's levied should be connected to the impact of that development Yep, it's called rational nexus. It was a big part of the impact fee for for nixon You probably know about it. Yeah, and the idea and I'll get into it in a little bit but the idea this um impact feed is basically that It's calculated based on the existing miles of sidewalks in town and then it breaks into Who's using them residential users and commercial users, uh with the Basically theory that all residential users might be using a sidewalk and high priority area downtown whether it's residential or commercial So that's the nexus that comes in in terms of this But yeah, we'll check into that too. Thanks This gets into these steps for identifying an impact fee and then again sort of the nexus and the premise for For how this one came to be identifying facilities and services that are affected by growth um identifying specific capital projects to be funded by the impact fee Developing formulas for that impact fee and then ready to get into ordinance As I mentioned, this is the bicycle pedestrian plan that was adopted a few years ago um Now this was calculated using a couple of different projections and estimates one of them is Population the other one's going to be commercial space in town So these are just some of those calculations and projections, you know, roughly Half a percent population increase is what we've been getting and can expect into the future. Um, so Commercial space was a little bit more tricky. You can see going back to 1930 You know, it was kind of flat increased a little bit some ups and downs and then the past five years or so with skyrocketed A little bit of a Mix between what's out there and what to expect in terms of gut feel My gut is that we're not going to keep going up like this. We'll probably Be somewhere in between. So sort of the average of the past 10 years kind of captures the Probably continue to still grow and add commercial space, but probably not quite as rapidly as the past couple years But with all those projections in mind We're looking at probably 600 new residents and 1400 new employees in the next 10 years The number of employees is tied to commercial space Calculate or estimate number of employees based on square footage of commercial commercial space. So that's where that 1,400 number comes in This is looking at the existing level of service. That's what I was talking about the existing mileage of sidewalk Number of users in town residential users residents in town also the amount of commercial space and you can calculate a level of service per 100 bedrooms and level of service for Square footage of commercial space Those numbers that are there the idea is to Keep that level of service as you add population and add commercial space And trying to keep that level of service from declining too much Is where the impact the Calculation comes into play. I can start to go above that level of service. That's when the impact fee Is probably too high, but we're not getting into that range. So That's where that came from In terms of the project selection, this is uh going back to that bike ped plan I'd identified a whole number of projects across the town in the village This is strictly looking at projects in the town and all the numbers on that that was referring to in the past I should have said earlier our town outside the village Those are those numbers So that project identified Up to you know about 15 projects and The numbers up there the table up there shows estimates of what those projects would cost if you did all 15 of them Anywhere down to five of them Sidewalks are not cheap Yeah, what what does that stretch out for a sidewalk or for a hundred feet of sidewalk My math is so it's a million over a million dollars a mile This is just this is just based on the um projects that were identified in the bike bed plan Yep, so yeah on the short end if you do five projects, that's still a three million dollar cost. Um Estimating a 20% match from the town, uh, which is usually what we have to contribute for federal and state grants So even just five projects is over three million dollars six hundred thousand dollars from the town contribution And that would add about two and a half miles at the high end you're looking at 15 projects for 8.8 million dollars, um total cost town pitching in 1.7 1.8 million in matching costs Uh, this is the list of the top 10 projects. I won't go through each of them. Um, but that part of the uh bike bed plan That I've been referencing This gets into the formulas. There's a different formula for residential and a different form than there is for commercial space Um, the residential is based on number of bedrooms. Um, thinking that's a little bit more equitable than just doing it by homes. Um, looking at Better calculation just from the residential phasing policy one bedroom approximately one person. So looking at doing it by You know different feeds for a one bedroom studio apartment compared to a four bedroom home. Um, just to Sort of differentiate that a little bit Commercial space is broken down by square footage. Uh 1000 square feet of commercial space And I'll get into it a little bit But even that commercial space is broken down further into types of commercials So trying to make sure that a 10 000 square foot warehouse with three employees is not being charged as much or more than a 5 000 square foot office space with 20 employees um part of the calculation also went into Who's projected to use the sidewalks as they're built out? um consultant put together some numbers and basically the funding responsibility to summarize um 64 of that funding responsibility will fall on residential users and 36 on the commercial users This gets into the impact of the bedrooms the types of commercial space uh for commercial Roke it down into accommodations. That's your hotels. Um, stuff like that commercial space office, uh those types of uses industrial space retail space, um, so different formulas and different thin formula but different Potential fees for each of those each of those uses depending on their level of impact this is Sort of the the key chart and takes a look at what the fees might break down to On the residential side Look at the top five projects and we're up to all the projects And some are between so this is where we have a little bit of leeway flexibility to figure out what's the appropriate number that's going to be based on What is politically acceptable as well as what can we kind of expect to project out in the next 10 years? How many we're going to get to do some of these projects so Just to give a range of top five projects though project costs three million dollars The town's contributing about 20 percent in the local match rates down to Just over a hundred dollars per bedroom hundred and six dollars per bedroom that comes on commercial space an average of seventy three thousand seventy three dollars per Thousand square feet of commercial space, but that varies a little bit based on the breakdown of the combination of commercial retail industrial warehouse I have 17 dollars per thousand square feet for your office professional buildings down to $28 for your hotels housing $96 per retail space To address that if we did all 15 projects, which is not likely just based on a grand history of the cost of it You have to add seven hundred dollars a bedroom you know and an average of Four hundred and ninety dollars for Thousand square feet of commercial space, so I think that's unlikely probably you know you say Five is a reasonable expectation of projects to do Probably between five and ten Which is the average and that'd be about two hundred ninety dollars per bedroom average of two hundred dollars For thousands per feet of commercial space That's something to consider and give feedback on you know what what do you think makes sense in terms of projects coming in but also, you know, what's um a reasonable fee to to tack on to development that as it comes in and lastly The way this is calculated. There are some credits To make sure people aren't getting taxed twice. So every year the town puts aside about $40,000 in its capital budget for sidewalks and paths The consultant came up with the calculation to get credit for that So house comes on the market and is built they pay their Residential sidewalk impact fee, but then they're also paying property taxes that go towards future sidewalk construction So it's a credit against those future taxes that would reduce the fee initially Um waivers and exemptions uh Town can consider offering waivers for things we want to incentivize Affordable housing energy efficiency those types of things So that's also another another way to potentially reduce the fee to encourage certain things that we want to encourage from the planning perspective So right now this luckboard saw this presentation last week, um Darren presented it to the conservation and trails committee This week I presented it to the economic development commission and they're going to give me some feedback Probably at their next meeting very amps night with you guys So trying to collect some of that input to bring it back to the select board and figure out how to move forward, um if we move forward and Kind of looking at what the appropriate fee value should be If there's any waivers that should be considered or written into the ordinance and then putting the ordinance into place so I could answer questions take feedback Little feedback for you And I'm looking at this You know sidewalk assessment basically which seems to be falling fairly heavily on the non-residential side I'm looking at Dennis lots of new Water program toy, which is going to cost the town probably 40 grand over over time we have sign regulations We need to put it all together and figure out some way to encourage development instead of building And adding on all these little roadblocks To development. I I don't think the town is going in the right direction with that. I think they're basically Trying to figure out a way to raise revenue But I think it's a nickel and dime approach And I also have a question since since you're on the on the floor I'm reading in the the reporter the thing on the town water model And it says here Says staff will also require the model whenever projects are cited in areas with potential deficiencies in water servers Or whenever it's in the town's best interest. How do you define who defines what? Determines is in the town's best interest if there are a set of criteria to do that Or do you want to fight the the lawyers forever determining that? Yeah, so Dennis and Aaron put together for the water model first and I'll respond to that For the water model piece they put together Four criteria as to when it would be applied and I forget the first three but it was uh No, I won't even speak because I forgot what the first three were But the last one was um one deemed to be in the best interest of town and they sort of put that in as a Catch-all they said it'd be the one percent of the time the other the other three criteria are 99 percent of the time Determination then Dennis getting up on the right side of the bed or not You know we're liking the color that the plans are printed on, you know, those are the kind of open ends That make it very hard to develop things Yeah, I mean the one percent of the time that it's used I guess we'd have to hash that out the other three that I wish I had in front of me But they were pretty clear and pretty specific as to when it would be applied I understand, you know the other things, but I don't know. I'm still looking. I'm still looking at a hole there May at some point come back and bite somebody I mean the argument that Dennis made was that This approach is actually less expensive for an applicant than asking an applicant to model The water issues on their own so like for instance doing something up at the town center and saying to an applicant You have to prove that there's enough fire flow go out and model the whole System they can't afford to do that He's still got a model of fire flow for a specific building developer has to do that anyway Right, so he has to do it before he can start building So Dennis said that they ran the water model fee by most of the engineers in town and had positive feedback on it It's more accurate. It's more up front. It's a set fee that they can expect It's as opposed to somebody trying to come in and figure out What the model might be on a certain part of town in just the town center This would factor it into everything the town spent 20,000 dollars to get that water model fee built The fee that would be put on to developers and would be A one-time fee to recoup some of the costs. I think it'd be 250. I forget the exact number But 200 250 and then depending on the size of the development a one-time cost to run it Which is basically a pass through town doesn't see that it's passed through to the company that has the water model and be using it So it's more for the developer Subfront for them. It's a clear cost. It's not an engineer With the wildly fluctuating cost and it's more accurate for the town and the developer Is is there room in that? system for the Proposed developer to challenge what the model says.  How do you determine? That your baseline for that Is there a baseline model right now that'll tell you exactly what all the pressures and the flows are say in the town center area Do we have that now? I believe that's what the model is. I'll have to check and get back to you on it But I'm I'm almost positive that the the model is what's out there now and you can Based on what's here now and somebody wants to put in a 10 unit apartment building over here Then that's going to plug into that model and everything else is going to do this And you can figure out what the pressure is going to be down the line And the other piece of the model that I found interesting was that it's continually Self-improving because it uses the new data inputs The hydrant testing all the things that happen on a regular basis through public works It uses to continually update itself. So whatever that model is run. It's the latest as of whatever just happened Which I thought was interesting Literally get everybody on the same page And if I can follow up on the sidewalk fee piece and you know additional costs there it is It's an additional cost that's going to developer Developers and probably getting passed on to tenants and residents and everything else But I like to think that the way this is being set up is it's It sets a standard it clarifies what that is like I started off with every single time a project comes in that Requires a sidewalk. There's a debate at this table with public works with the Applicants trying to figure out what's appropriate. What is it appropriate? How much is appropriate? Should it be a construction? Should it be a fee that's calculated based on? The costs of the moment This sets that up. It's a it's a clear standard as to what they can expect and what they can pay The developer I can't remember if it was uh The presentation the select board meeting I can't remember if it was Dennis or if it was the consultant, but Basically said most of the towns in the county are going in the direction of transportation impact fees and You know, they're the models that are being considered and adopted elsewhere Incorporate the sidewalk component into transportation. This breaks it out a little bit more transparent So you can see where those dollars are going as opposed to a general transportation impact fee So yes, it's an additional cost Whole counties trying to deal with it post-state. Um, I like to think it's it's a cost that Yeah, we can point to and then have reasons for for enacting it So if we had this in place, would that mean we wouldn't expect the developers to Nope, so it would still be um, the idea is that this applies to those priority projects So it's the whether it's the top five or top ten or Whatever we get, um We'll be going towards those priority sidewalks now the zoning regulations talk about if you put in a new public road you need to put in the sidewalk or two sidewalks depending on on the Um, extent and the traffic of that road that would still be required Um, if it's if a development is going in along one of those priority sidewalks The developer would be required to put in To build that sidewalk along that project to get credited so they wouldn't have to pay the fees They would have had to the way this is being considered and proposed If it's not if there's an internal road off the main road Not the main road is a priority project Then what happens um If the main road is not a priority projects, then they would collect the fees and they'd be applied to a priority project elsewhere So I have a proposed exemption. Okay. Um, it's an apples and oranges thing, but um, I would I think it'd be nice to have exemption if they need the high performance post energy standard Or Different No, that's waivers That's If there's a project that's not in one of the 15 identified places and they were required to put in a sidewalk Do they still pay? If it's not if it's a Sidewalk that's not part of the priority Sidewalk path project list that they would have to put in the sidewalk and pay towards a future thing And then my other comment is um boy, I'd rather see it based not on bedrooms And the reason for that is when we had the school impact fee People would say they're building a two-bedroom and off the top of my head for me from memory A two-bedroom school impact fee was like 238 bucks. The three bedroom was like 1038 bucks a four and up was 2800 something bucks and everybody put in Two or sometimes three, but oftentimes throughout the years since I've been here The penalty for that is They do an after the fact permit because we no longer have a school impact fee So they only it cost them 60 bucks to bring their permit up to To say that they're trying to sell it for three or four bedrooms, whatever it is. So I'd rather somehow have an average that Everybody just pays off fees or a call-at will also be considered part of Calculated into the fee or maybe a square footage Could do it on square footage or you could do it on the wastewater permit Number of bedrooms on the wastewater permit that way they can't Back in because I have that same note Then they can't back in the system. They got a three bedroom septic and only want to build a two bedroom house. That's fine I Great, I'm interested in what the economic development commission's reaction to yet another fee was And also if you know where Essex stands in the region as far as the The fees that we keep on developers. I sort of share Ned's concerns that it's it's getting awfully expensive to develop in Essex and are we deterring Good development Similar question from economic development commission and it's yeah, what are what are the fees elsewhere in town? They weren't necessarily opposed to this but they did have questions about What it means in terms of competition for Essex versus other towns similar this scare Someone to go to Colchester Williston Milton somewhere else instead of coming to Essex So yeah, I have to dig into that. They were going to get me some more formal comments at their next meeting next week, I believe Either feedback Yeah, and and this isn't for you know, they're the unimproved primitive paths. It's really just the priority sidewalk stuff Um, I can certainly take back what I've heard tonight and you were from too many fees and and let's not bother to Some of the waivers and different considerations for the bedroom If you wanted to do something more formal at your next meeting and submit some written comments to the select board. I'm happy to take those as well It's the pleasure You think we should or do you think Uh, it never hurts to have you know commission speaking as one or even if you're not all on the same page But at least to have general comments Otherwise, it's you know, it's me taking it back and passing it on and I'm happy to do so But similar to what I used to do and Darren does now with conservation and trails passing comments up it's it's you know one thing to hear it from the Staff person it's another thing to hear it from the actual commission So if you can do it as a board, I think that'd be a little bit stronger, but whatever works for you Could a waiver include i'm just trying to think of the comments that Dana just made with so many fees and everything That maybe a waiver could include at the planning commission's discretion if they have to put in a sidewalk that's not in the identified places that A waiver is granted depending on how big it is, you know a sidewalk of a little bit versus a pretty good path um before it all tanks Not that it would but just a suggestion I think we could consider it then I think um you open the door to that one percent of the water modeling fee that Ned is referring to When do you grant a waiver is it based on the mood of the board on a certain day? I guess but if you've got somebody at the table who's putting in a pretty good size sidewalk in front of their development That doesn't have to happen to meet the 15 projects So I don't know I kind of look at it as double-dipping a little bit It's tough because you know speaking as someone who does building, you know, it's If you go in for a single lot that doesn't require act 250 you pay a fraction of the fees the minute you cross the act 250 threshold I just did it on one of my project expansions. I wrote three checks to the state For just permit fees and they were expensive, you know, so so ours look cheap by comparison Well, no, what I'm saying is it? I mean, yes, but if someone came in and was just doing a two lot You know peeling off a couple lots off of Brigham hill and they never had to go to the state They literally their their permit fees are really just limited to this table They cross the act 250 threshold and they're writing checks for thousands of dollars and that's when I think developers get a little lancy They just see the checks going on but in theory those larger projects the profit not that that's our job, but I mean Theory they would they have a lot more to gain than someone just peeling off a couple lots. So I'm kind of I struggle It'd be nice to hear Dustin and John's Take on it too We're putting this on we have time to put it on our next meeting You meet again the 20 26 um Yes, let's board won't see us again until these november. So okay. So could we throw this on for uh? Spear to discussion And in light of what sort of Ned was saying just in general the kind of maybe a step back looking at all the landscape of fees It's a valid concern. We hear it, you know, we go to the um building homes better campaign and part of the impediment about affordable housing or even just you know housing that people can afford is the fees At the same time they're they're there to help the town provide a service to the residents and users coming in so It's hard The challenge that the pushback I have on that is there doesn't even if you eliminate those fees You just don't see Maybe you guys have examples of them. I just don't see areas in Vermont where They're like stuffing in affordable housing and not get it out of the park either because fees don't exist because the Right environment's there So like to say to have this premise that if we don't do the fees the affordable housing We we just can't seem to get it. Yeah, I didn't mean to say that. No, no, I know it's you know It's one of the many components towards not just affordable housing But enough housing and housing that people can afford including the Ford and quote affordable by definition housing Right i'm curious also What When is it in the town's best interest to pay for Her infrastructure Instead of passing it on to developers some towns actually Pay for improvements And I don't know which towns do it When is it appropriate for a bond boat a sidewalk bond boat A water tower bond boat A ladder truck bond boat, you know, I don't understand these things, but sometimes towns pay for Kinds of growth, especially in their areas that are designated to grow tiffs. I mean tiffs are That's that whole concept of Create create that, you know make a decision as a town and put it on everybody and create that that area Right and now tiffs are back right and might that be something that we should consider Personally as a community development director I'd like to see it some a little bit more public investment in In our areas designated for growth But I wouldn't necessarily go to the select board to say that No, and I as one person can't speak for when the town is ready to Put in public investment. Um, it might be a good question to ask as you do the etc next project of Yeah, some of the development that's coming might require public investment. What are people willing to spend and on what? I might give a better sense These are big picture Anything else for us, great. No, that's it. Thank you. Nice to see you. Nice to have you back Thank you Good question If I get it in time for your next meeting, I will pass it on Thanks, greg. Thanks greg Okay beef In your package, you have the minutes of september 14th and september 28th miss kelly. Did you So I just wanted to point out that um before your Seats I placed um, thanks folks a new copy um, that was presented to me from From irin renner who um emailed them over and she has been suggested changes So I just want to bring that to your attention to see how you want to go forward with that at this time A couple of them I will say that I had already noticed for myself For example on september 28 line 105 commissioner I think it says main gar I had changed that one Um, and there was one other one that was a typo that I changed Well, Dave killed, you know Her suggested change on dave keelti the sign-in sheet to me looked like kea. I don't know the guy She knows the guy. Maybe she knows that was the right spelling, but um Right again, I Oh on the application. Okay. Yeah, I didn't run to do all that checking when I just used the sign-in sheet So I have placed a note on the sign-in sheet to please print Um, so that we can check these these things. Um, I know that in past people have just put their initials like jv you know, or eski kelly and She'll send me those type of corrections as well, so So her corrections are in red. Okay So are these coming as Requested edits from the select board from a concerned citizen. How are these? I don't know I honestly don't know they come to me via email. I don't know if she's Doing this in as her capacity a select board member or landowner. It doesn't say one way or the other It's just an email from Irene I mean like my personal feelings are, you know Easy changes like a spelling mistake or something is is at your discretion as the recording secretary When we start getting into content I think I almost feel like we need A discussion similar to the one we had about when we amend minutes as all seven of us here and I don't want to Yeah, I mean put this on for a future. Yeah If all seven of us are here on on the 26th, we can talk about it again In the past you have granted the liberty of if I've made a mistake of like kill tea for example Further research shows that k.e.a or k money go ahead and just change it a comma should have been a semicolon go ahead and do it We don't really need to have you guys Saying, you know calling those things out. I don't think what are other people's thoughts Well, I'm I'm looking at september 28th ones specifically line 47 You're saying the red is her words her words. So outdated hard to access I don't know where that's coming from is day with it. That's something that was on the recording Well, that's what I mean. We don't know right if it your personal impression of something that was important on the recording That we didn't put in Then that that is a whole discussion piece about what we're choosing to put in as opposed to you miss the comma here You miss the semicolon, so I'm basically seconding what Dave said, but that's a good example of that like Outdated hard to access is almost an editorial comment if we don't know How it came to be added to our minutes Yeah, I I can't the slices that Josh brings up I I don't remember and I don't know they any have to do what the exact words Should be in there and uh Yeah, I don't I don't think it's something we gotta we got to change now You know on line 129, you might want to call me commissioner daily just to be consistent with everything else that's in there Well, that's what I really don't care and call me whatever you want I'm sorry So exactly I I mean I think you are all saying the same thing from what I'm hearing I think so I think we need to have yeah, we need to have a larger discussion and I think for me You know because I get to sit in this chair tonight for me it this goes back to the Facebook and other issues we've had in the past I just want to know if these are coming as official changes from if they're from the select board then we take a certain amount of direction from them but I just want to make sure we have a consistent process so that whether it's a Select board member or member of the public We're just handling this consistently and to josh's point That we don't have to second guess in 10 because you don't want to be spending this kind of time one minute And I also don't want the minutes to suffer as a result where we start saying okay That's it. We're just going to capture what we're required to by statute Which are motions who made them and what the resulting vote was Which are getting closer and closer I think if it were we should If it comes in before we approve the minutes Yeah, and I to josh's point I mean, I think that's easy if there's like you could easily run down these and go yep spelling area Yeah, yeah, absolutely do that. But then when it starts to get where josh was pointing out It's like I don't remember that and I'm not gonna spend an hour here trying to play back a tape and make share and go back and Find out if it really was outdated hard to access or not And even the the The current grammaticals you don't even really need to call out with just that open You know understanding that okay go fix the spelling or something right I think it would be nice to tighten up our policy if we need to formally authorize you to do that kind of stuff Maybe we should formally authorize that. I mean you've been our recording secretary forever. You can fix a typo error without Eating this place blessing So you're operating procedures you're coming back to you so maybe All right, so can we agree that we'll Take a look at these So that being said, so thank you Sharon So for this round are people okay with sharing correcting The typos in terms of name spelling and Giving commissioner daily the due respect he deserves by saying For the other Well commissioner daily when we go away because that that was added Okay Um, so we'll put this on for a future. So can we entertain a motion or The minutes either individually or together I knew we proved them all So a motion improved september 14th and september 28 minutes Second that seconded Any further discussion All those in favor I opposed motion carries Thank you Any other business Okay, great Motion adjourned seconded all those in favor I opposed motion carries 734 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you


Every self-styled expert and his dog and his mother-in-law will tell you that the narcissist is incapable of loving, is unable to love, and for a change, rarely, they would be right. But what they forget to tell you is that the narcissist is not only incapable of loving, he also does not let himself be loved, and that is a much more painful experience for the narcissist's intimate partners, friends, family, children, and so on. The narcissist is surrounded by people who want to offer him love and compassion and affection and empathy and succor and support and advice and help, and yet, he is not there for them, he is incapable of receiving these gifts, he spurns them and rejects them and pushes them away and becomes aggressive, humiliating, hurtful, and sometimes harmful. The narcissist cannot love, but he also does not let himself be loved, cannot be loved.  So at the core of the narcissist, there is a bad object which makes the narcissist feel inferior, and to compensate for this bad object, for this incessant cacophony of demeaning, degrading, humiliating, and shaming voices, the narcissist comes up with a false self. Narcissism therefore is compensatory, it compensates for the existence of a bad object, this empty schizoid core at the heart of the narcissist. So when the narcissist is confronted with love, with appreciation, with compassion, when the narcissist is held and contained and caressed and touched physically or emotionally, the narcissist recoils. He recoils because the bad object inside the narcissist feels threatened. The bad object says, you're not worthy of love, you're not lovable, and here, there is an intimate partner who loves him, and that of course conflicts with the messaging of the signaling of the bad object. It creates what is known in psychology is dissonance. It is a very threatening, ominous feeling. The narcissist wants to avoid dissonance, all human beings by the way, want to avoid dissonance because dissonance gives rise to anxiety. To avoid all these unpleasant outcomes, the narcissist simply walks away from any hint of love, any shade of caring, any attempt to afford him, to provide him with empathy and understanding and acceptance and warmth. These are, in the narcissist world, threats to the cohesion and functioning of the precariously balanced house of cards known as the narcissistic personality, a disorganized, chaotic entity. As far as the narcissist knows, as far as he is concerned, as far as his experience goes, especially as a small child, love always ends in heartbreak, pain, hurt, loss and abandonment. Why embark on a venture that is bound or liable to end so horribly, to inflict intolerable excruciating pain?  So narcissists stay away from love, because the first experience of love as children was bad, was really, really terrible. They learned to connect love with performance, the love they have received, if at all, if any, was conditional, and very often it alternated with abuse and hatred. And so this intermittent reinforcement by an unstable parent or even worse an absent, emotionally absent parent, a dead mother, for example, rendered the narcissist incapable of conceiving of love as something positive. Whereas the vast majority of healthy, normal people regard love as some kind of salve, some kind of absolution, some kind of redemption, some kind of completion, some kind of transcendence and elevation, the narcissist perceives love as being dragged into an abyss of seething emotions which he had been trying to avoid all his life, most notably the shame, the shame of not having been allowed to become as a child, the shame of having been abused, tortured, traumatized, instrumentalized, parentified, but never ever simply loved the way he has been as a child, had been as a child. So with this background, where love is perceived as a weapon, where love is weaponized, where love is perceived as a power play, or a mind game, or the precursor to negative affectivity, to very hard and difficult to endure emotions. With this background, the narcissist of course, whenever confronted with a loving partner, or with a loving child, or with a loving friend, or with a loving colleague or whatever, whenever confronted with love, the narcissist reacts with paranoid ideation. He asks himself, why this so-called ostensible love? Why is it being offered to me? I'm a bad object, I'm unlovable, something is going on here, and then he projects. He says the love that is on offer is not love, it's not real, it's a fantasy, or even worse, she's faking it, she's being manipulative. This so-called love that I'm being engulfed in, this so-called love that is supposed to encompass me, and calm me down, and make me happy, and whole, this love is just a manipulative ploy, and strategy, and stratagem. There's something going on behind the scenes, because I know there's not such thing as love, and I know definitely that I am not lovable, so no one can love me. This is, a lot of this monologue of course, is unconscious, the bad object is largely submerged totally in the unconscious. And yet, this monologue has psychodynamic impacts and effects, it causes the narcissist to modify his behaviors, it triggers in the narcissist, specific of a well-made emotions, it changes the narcissist moods, vicissitudes, liability. And so, the narcissist when confronted with love, and he knows that love is going to end badly, he knows that love is fake, he knows that love is conditional, his mother taught him that, maybe his father later on. So he confronts love with paranoia, with suspicion, with doubt, with questioning. He deconstructs love, he tries to undermine its foundations to reveal the hidden tunnels under the city of love. And so this paranoia is uncoupled with projection. Because he himself is incapable of loving, he assumes that no one is capable of loving. And because he himself is not a good receptacle of love, not a good recipient of love, he assumes that no one can receive love, no one can contain love. Whether love is stronger than anyone and can overwhelm and destroy you, or it's an imitation, a simulacrum, mimicry of the real thing, intended to somehow obtain a goal, it's goal-oriented, there's some psychopathic motivation behind these displays and spectacle of love. It's all manipulative and it needs to be tested, it needs to be probed all the time. So this is what the narcissist does with the first phase of narcissistic abuse. He tests. People who claim to love the narcissist are constantly being subjected to a battery and barrage of tests and probes, probes and tests. The narcissist escalates his egregious abusive behaviors in order to see how far he can push the envelope. At what point will this so-called fake love reveal its true face and expire? Or maybe there is this unicorn, this unique partner, who really loves him and therefore she would be able to withstand any amount of torture, any extent of abuse and would still be there. She would still not abandon him and she would still love him and gulf him with her love. So there's constant testing and probing going on and of course this renders intimacy impossible. The narcissist destroys every potential for intimacy by constantly doubting and suspecting his partner. When they say partner again, could be a friend, could be a child, anyone, anyone with whom the narcissist has an interpersonal relationship involving an emotional exchange. Narcissists test everyone around him all the time. Part of this is grandiosity. The narcissist being God-like is not in need of love. You see, God is perfect. God includes everything so God cannot have a will. To have a will, you need to want something outside yourself. You have a will to eat because the food is not inside your body. You have a will to love someone because that someone is not you. There needs to be an externality for you to have a volition. So God doesn't have volition, it doesn't have a will because it contains everything and so does the narcissist. So the narcissist regards love as something very vulgar, very hoipoloid. It's for commoners. Love is for the average bloke, for the Joe Schmo, the love is not for the narcissist. The narcissist is elevated, the narcissist is divine. The narcissist is not in need of anything, is not dependent on anyone. So love is for commoners, not for the exceptionally superior. The narcissist's superiority is expressed via defiance. The narcissist defies life, defies authority, defies the needs of other people. He says other people may need it, other people may need love, other people may need many the family, other people may need compassion, I don't know. Other people may need X, I need nothing. I need nothing because I am the creator, I contain everything. Everything is in me, inside me. And this is known as hyperreflexivity. The narcissist expands outwards and contains the entire world, contains reality. And so he is not in need of anything. And for him to love and to be loved indicates a deficiency, a lack. You love someone because you need something, you need emotional gratification, you need to feel safe with a secure base, you need attachment, you need a family, you need companionship, you need, you need, there's a need there. So to love someone is to admit that you are less than perfect. You're imperfection. And to be loved also means that you're not perfect. Because love entails and involves forgiving, overlooking shortcomings and flaws. Love is a compromise, love is a dialogue, love is, love is separateness that comes together. So love implies that the narcissist is not the entire universe, is not solipsistic, is not one of a kind, sui generis. Love implies that the narcissist is in need of love and that the lover, the narcissist lover sees him as he is, warts and all, shortcomings and strengths. An imperfect being.  It amplifies and magnifies the parts of himself that are not Godlike, that are human. It triggers his humanity. It appeals to his humanity and the narcissist denies and has been denied his humanity since early childhood because to be human is to be in pain. To be human is to suffer. To be human is to endure loss and devastation. To be human is to be immersed in a miasma of hurt and the anticipation of the worst, catastrophizing. So the narcissist doesn't want to be human. And to love is the ultimate ratification, expression and manifestation of being human. Love is a dependency of some kind. Love is neediness of some kind. You need, when you're in love, you need the other partner and you're dependent on her to some extent for your well-being. This is not a dependency, like a drug dependency, but still there are some elements of dependency and need and dependency in the narcissist lexicon is risk to be dependent, is to be at risk because the narcissist as a child has been let down by the very people he needed and dependent on his parents, his parental figures and later on perhaps peers, teachers, role models and so on. The narcissist has learned to associate dependency with death, potential death. He has learned to associate neediness with the normal life-threatening risk. Neediness is also mortified because it's publicly humiliating, it's shameful. The narcissist feels extremely uncomfortable walking hand in hand with his loved one. He displays her, he uses her as a trophy the way he would use his luxury car or his iPhone 15, but that is an external display. Any hint of intimacy in the couple or outside the couple is resented and rejected by the narcissist because it's a signal holding hands signals I need this person, I love this person, I'm dependent on this person. She holds my hand literally and figuratively and the narcissist would never admit to this because it challenges the narcissist's basic theorem of self-sufficiency.  So the narcissist automatically converts anyone who tries to love him into a persecutory object. First, by attributing to her some nefarious goals and agenda, some ulterior motive and secondly by defying her, rejecting the offer of love is a sign of strength, a sign of resilience, a sign of fortitude, proof of survival. So rejecting love in the narcissist's dictionary is prevailing. Rejecting love is an assurance of strength, survival and resilience. Love is a vulnerability, vulnerability is a dangerous, they also imply weakness, if you're vulnerable you're weak, there's nothing the narcissist hates more than being weak. Narcissists perceive loving and being loved, both as vulnerabilities and weaknesses, because being loved is very addictive, it's a very pleasant experience and the narcissist is terrified of falling for it and being unable to detach and disconnect and reject and walk away. Because the narcissist treats love as one would treat fire, flame, he recoils, he runs away, he shuts his eyes because love can weaken him. Do you remember the story of Samson and Delilah? Samson and Delilah is a parable, Samson was one echo of the narcissist, one of the first narcissists described in the Bible, Delilah cut his hair, rendered him weak. Love made Samson the strongest man on earth, weak and a captive, a hostage of the enemy. So Delilah Samson's love was the enemy. So when you do want to interact via love, via emotions, the narcissist feels terrified and to overcome this terror he seeks to micromanage the partner, her behaviors, her reactions, her responses, her choices, her decisions, they all need to be micromanaged and this amounts to coercive control in extreme cases. All this is intended to avoid weakness, hurt and devastating loss.  So the narcissist is present physically but never emotionally, not because he doesn't attempt to love but because all his emotions, all the catechesis, all the emotional investment is directed inward at internal objects in his mind and this is why we call it narcissism. It's self-love but not self-love in the classical healthy sense, it's simply that all the emotions, all this huge energy is directed inward, the narcissist becomes his own erotic, romantic and even sexual object incapable of interacting the same way with others, he immediately converts them into a part of his mind, figments of his imagination, elements in his fantasy. Really love shames the narcissist and humiliates him on a constant repetitive, regular basis. It's like love is a permanent narcissistic injury, why? Because love requires adult skills, adult skills. The narcissist is not an adult, the narcissist is a child, used to be called arrested or stunted development, we no longer use these terms but they capture reality. The narcissist is frozen in time like Aunt in Amber is frozen at the point where he has sacrificed his true self to a new divinity, a new deity, the false self and has ceased to exist, separate from the false self. So now the narcissist is a piece of fiction and of course in the absence of reality because the narcissist has divorced reality, chose fantasy over reality, rejected life in the world, it is reality that is the great teacher, friction with reality is the engine of personal growth and development and in the absence of reality in the narcissist's life, the narcissist never becomes an adult, never acquires the skills necessary to manage a relationship.  There was a discovery by Donald Winnicott, Donald Winnicott said that abused children can handle or can manage only hate and when they're confronted with love they try to convert it to hate, that's not some vacuum, that's Donald Winnicott, the greatest child psychologist ever after Piaget. Love requires not only adult skills but also emotional maturity, a secure attachment style and a grounded center of personality, a core identity. The narcissist has none of these things, he is emotionally immature, his attachment style is insecure and he doesn't have a core identity if he has an empty core. The narcissist is an addict and like all junkies he is very very deficient in these departments.  All his energy goes there, he has nothing left to give to anyone even to himself because he has no self.  Love requires the recognition of the other, love requires the ability to tell that someone else is separate from you, is external to you, has boundaries, that's when you end and someone else begins, this is love, love is not merger, love is not fusion, love is not symbiosis, these are malignancies of love known as co-dependency and other issues. So narcissists are incapable of this, they are not capable of othering people, they are not capable of perceiving people as separate entities, external objects with their own needs and fears and hopes and wishes and dreams and emotions and cognitions and so on. The narcissist immediately appropriates you, annexes you, converts you into an internal object and dispenses with your externality and separateness because the narcissist has never experienced separation from the most crucial figure in his life, his mother or the maternal figure. The narcissist feels very threatened by the fact that you are separate and external, your personal autonomy, your agency, your self-efficacy, they threaten him and so he must eliminate them, he eliminates them via coercion, manipulation, abuse but he also eliminates them by self-deceiving, he lies to himself that you're not separate, that you're not external, that you are his extension, that you're merely an internal object that you will never ever abandon him because you're inside his mind and he is in full control of you and so whenever you display any signs of independence, a new friend, you travel on your own, you have a job or whatever, the narcissist regards you as an external object, a gun, a muck, as a threat to the inertly perfect universe of his internal objects and he redoubles his efforts to render you non-existent, as non-existent as he is, to make you into an absence, from a presence to an absence and that's an excellent description or encapsulation of the shared fantasy. Shared fantasy is intended to transition you from a presence to an absence. Narcissists blindly devour and consume their predators but they're not predators in the psychopathic sense, malevolent, cunning, scheming, premeditated, no, the predators in the instinctual reflexive sense, now like Pac-Man, you remember that very early video game, you know, with the teeth, they devour and consume because they devour and consume, not because it's part of any sophisticated scenario which is essentially goal-oriented, there's no goal there, the goal is to reduce anxiety, the narcissist anxiety, by killing you metaphorically the narcissist anxiety is ameliorated and mitigated and under control because your independence coupled with your love are the greatest imaginable threats, the last time the narcissist has come across an independent person who offered him love was his mother and that has been a harrowing super traumatic experience. Narcissists mimic, they're mimicking parasites suspended in a sempitonal symbiotic fantasy, they feed, they're feeding frenzy, they frenzily feed off their successive hosts, I'm gonna read this sentence to you again because it's really a good simile of the shared fantasy.  Narcissists push you away, they resist any attempt to love them, their approach is acquisitive, their avoidance preordained by their need to reenact the unresolved conflict with their dead mother, the original frustrating figure, the original persecutory object, the trauma that never leaves them and that compels them, compulsion compels them to repeat the same cycle again and again and again, repetition compulsion and in this sense, narcissists are automata, they're robots programmed with their own shame driven compulsions, they're dummies to a self-conjured ventriloquist known as the false self, narcissists are a heat-seeking homing device with an algorithm programming gun or eye, how can you love, how can you love something like that, the answer is you can't, do not waste your love on the narcissist or the psychopath, all the psychopath for this matter, do not waste your love because if you waste your love you will end up being wasted