This is one of the first times I've seen this in a long time. I'm not getting the actual price of the Dow on my chart The futures are up only 17 what do you what do you have the actual price of the Dow act right now? He's an up. I believe it was like 60 points last time I looked whoops that is not it Let me pull it over. I think I have it. We're looking at the Dow right now trading up 46 points 26 834 Most of that is Boeing because Boeing is After being absolutely crushed quite a story on Boeing yeah round number high in the last move up at on September the 25th Plum is down to 324. So this is a 25 point balance from the 24. Yep 25 points from the low Filled in the gap. I think it's just a reflex of action At this point You really can't tell what's going to happen with Boeing because there is just so much going on Legally morally and just in everywhere. I agree the CEO of the works So I would just put I know a lot of people have said to me over the last couple of months Wow Boeing should be a fantastic buy and I said yeah, you might be right looking out But what are you going to do if it goes at the time that we were talking was in the 370s 380s Let's say what happens if it goes to 280 are you going to get out and then start to see it? Yeah, are you okay waiting five or ten years to make sure that that stock rebounds right because I agree Fantastic buy but Boeing's going to be around. I agree But they are in one of the most worrisome iron analysts this morning talking about when you're dealing with scandals like this You got to kind of pull the band-aid off completely You got to have some transparency at least so the market believes that everything is out there Especially when you deal with something so horrible with hundreds of lives being lost as a result of that and that does not seem like it's happening And that's the most worrisome thing just from a financial perspective let alone like you said the moral Which means that regulators at any point can say, you know, maybe they ready But I want to be just a hundred percent sure and they're going to keep doing that and that's going to extend anyway That's going just to finish it Basil because the one thing that I found remarkable on their earnings is that they said that they expect 737 max back into rotation 4th quarter of 2019 that is by the end of this year yet the airlines that use those planes do not so I Question everything that Boeing's putting out there and you know the earnings of course took a huge hit But the market knew that that was going to happen over the course of the last year But you know and I still say you know Tom and I talk about it I can't imagine that that plane is not going to get rebranded at some point that 737 max name takes on such a Finish They'll have to test it at least for months. Yeah, and that's why I imagine you know where where is that by the end of 2019 folks? We're 70 days outside of the end of 2019 I can't see that plane back in rotation with a new name fully tested with lines of people jumping on those planes Commercially I don't see that happening. So we'll see that's what Boeing is saying is going to happen Boeing has the capability to absolutely rectify every single mechanical or technical electronic thing There's no question. They have the resources. They have everything how they got into the situation It's silly to talk about it because we know that Boeing was one of the most respected companies in the world Definitely and they have just ruined that reputation. Yeah, it'll take a lot of their own chief technical pilots for the 737 Right coming out and using the word egregious in terms of how the software was handling And that was ahead of any of the flights. So I don't trust them at all So if they're telling us it's safe I want other people like maybe the FAA maybe regulators to come in and and back up anything They're saying because like you say they've lost the trust and that's pretty important when you're talking about flying people around the country When it comes to trust they were the gold standard.  Let's get to the nitty gritty


what's happening um so i guess i could get the microphone let me know what i'm standing here painting that y'all can hear me and understand what i'm saying good morning kim what do y'all think do i need to get the microphone the reason i say that is because i have my exhaust on mm-hmm my homemade exhaust all right i'll get the uh i'll get the easel or the easel the mic let me turn this on let me put this on and how does this sound is this better check one two check one two testing testing all right what's up um erica is out at uh our fairy art mother judy's i forgot i made this just right here um she won't be home till later so it's me and the girl and when i say the girl i mean canvas she's in the front room i'm trying to keep her out of the spray zone so all right so i've been doing these graffiti pieces is i need some spray adhesive uh i've been doing these like i kind of just want it to look like you know you're taking a chunk out of a out of an alley or a wall that's been spray painted on on the side of a building or something um and just kind of stuck it you know on a pair of lips um i did one today i didn't like it so i painted over it um and i should always do this is make the background black because when you're doing painting stuff and you leave areas it's all white so you have to fill that in and then when you're filling like if you're making it look like a bunch of different graffiti you're covering up literally everything you've done in the first so then you start to add stuff then you cover up more stuff and it gets frustrating so i'm going to see what it's like to use this our stencil to uh just kind of make some bigger graffiti inside of here and like i said i painted this white so that when i stick this down and i paint all this the teeth will be white that makes any sense so and i got some uh does that look hazy to you that lens one of the lens looks like it might be dirty all right let's see here which way do we want to do this one like this oh no it's the other way so this is the back so what i'm going to do is spray and just spray the back of this stencil here i don't know if it's gonna stick i don't see why it wouldn't but i'm gonna make sure this is semi even uh that's what i don't like about this stencil is how thin that is but then again i like this stencil so that when people if people buy it the svg one that uh you can do whatever you want to with it that does stick really well doesn't it so now i think because i have it touching this it doesn't want to lay flat and you all remember what i said about cleaning when you spray paint clean your see look at that wipe down your your area that isn't gonna not stick is it it's very low tack stuff so but anyways i'm gonna paint the background so it doesn't matter i just want so i know where to paint some lettering and some fun stuff well thank you manamana what's up everybody welcome welcome how howdy howdy hello how are you um well thanks for jumping in go check out some granddaughters all right so i'm just gonna do some fun bigger letters but what i need to do is is i need to do some brighter stuff i need to do bright stuff so that when i do the lines for the lips the dark doesn't get lost does that make sense like the detail so i'm gonna do what i did yesterday i did this piece the other day and i did some letters in this uh in this orange and it looked like kind of fire so i think i want to try that again up here in this this area and i'm not really making words per se i'm just basically making letters um or something that looks like a letter oh we got a little girl dog you stay over there you stay right there she's gonna start whining in a minute so let's try this so like i said i'm just kind of making stuff up as i go uh oh we got a runner y'all that little girl dog is crazy i'm telling you she is crazy so i'm getting a spray paint cap she's actually in the bedroom now she likes to go uh sleep or just play under the bed i'm not sure why but uh all right so i got this really really really bright yellow that goes really good with this orange so what i'm gonna do is i'm just gonna barely hit just where that little pop is and just kind of bring that in that's a good thing about these caps this is very easy to control this hold on let me see if the mic died my microphone might have died let me let me get the other mic oh shoot well i don't know i have a plug around here i can charge this hold on one second y'all i apologize uh the mic died so i gotta charge it let me charge the other one hold on all right so we're gonna do we're gonna do some dark turquoise here it's gonna outline it i think just so that like i said we're just making we're not doing any uh any particular words i'm just trying to get it get some get some background stuff in here that's the good part about doing graffiti stuff if you don't like it it's gonna get covered up anyways how's everybody doing today working on anything special look at this tip that we don't sell this one but this is a lot of fun right here this can be dangerous so you do this in an open open place we have so much stuff and she peas everywhere except the puppy patch i literally just watched her pee i'm just making just making stuff up as i go here just trying to make a background for some other stuff if you uh you don't feel comfortable doing lettering doing words just make up some lines make up some colors like you just take it because you have this stencil here if you fill in areas you have the shape already so you don't have to worry about doing really anything in particular always remember when you change your caps point that away from you you can just add color anywhere let's get some bright yellow we like that bright yellow used earlier you can just kind of fake it till you make it with this stuff whenever you hit uh yellow over pink it always turns orange so you've made three colors right here brightens up green if you don't have green don't need to worry about that look at that and it's just nice and bright and colorful and you're not gonna worry about it that's in purple i guess you could say lavender i know i apologize if you guys can't hear me oh our lane you're too kind bye cam thanks for joining let's just put a little lavender have some colors coming down into it like it's maybe some like you know how it's remember we're acting like it's just been cut out of a wall so you can just do some some lines that were a word up here we just made a word up right there we don't even know what it was but it looks like something on a wall all you gotta do is just do a little splatter a little bit of spit or spatter and y'all will be just fine you just don't want to get too dark because your your uh remember you're i'm gonna see that because that's where the teeth are gonna be all right let's that's enough of that you get the idea you definitely don't want to give it some heat you could go in with your posca pens or paint pens or whatever you like and maybe do some detail on a couple of these pieces or make it like somebody wrote something with a pen or something on there that's what's fun about these it's there's never a right way to do it i'm not a graffiti artist at all i believe she is a graffiti artist screaming at me back there that is our new puppy canvas and look at here there you go see you peel away and you got your teeth so what i like to do hey it's funny because she uh she's very independent like she can just hang out by herself if she wants what i'm gonna do here is make a shadow some gray so i have this transparent gray spray right here just to give me a nice little shadow for your teeth are and you'll see when i bring this bring this off here you'll understand where that comes from you don't have to spray a lot it doesn't look like there's really any on there does it but when you take that away oh this was not dry that's not good that's all right there's gonna be mark uh there's gonna be lines there from the other uh stencil so let's do this before we put this up here we don't want that yeah see if you don't let it dry oops sorry about that you don't let it dry then you get marks like right there and right there but this is graffiti so nobody would even notice this you know what i'm saying well i know how to use the spray can i use the spray paint pretty much every single day where i live uh down in deep ellum uh at a it was called a free wall where you actually could go and paint spray paint and they didn't care it was for that so that people could come and have fun and just paint it was called a legal wall let's let this dry off a little bit yeah that is like i should have let that dry a little bit but like i said it's not gonna matter because we have a stencil that you put up it looks like this i know it looks kind of funky but what you do is you line it up right where that mouth is and then you just spray black but i don't want to i don't want to put anything on this yet let me like if you heat this up sometimes if you heat up spray paint it gets sticky and you don't want to do that so you let it cool down and i believe that just kind of hardens it as well so we put a little bit of spray mount on here just so that it sticks to the to the piece so you don't have to hold it now we're not going to worry about the outline of this because we don't need to because it's black we'll probably outline this with like a light blue or maybe even put a piece of neon around it would you guys like to see how i do neon that's always fun what you want to do is line this up to where it's right and you can always fix this with a paint pan if it's not lined up just right you're just going to want to dust this with the black don't spray too much into this because you don't want this leaking underneath black goes everywhere oh god what is she doing you guys this dog is like a cat like she is so curious i forget how crazy puppies are you can barely even hear that i'm spraying that now let's just hope no other paint comes off there's some right there it's all right it looks like a wall we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna take that look at that look how fun that is it was funny you figure this spray paint would dry but some of this spray paint a little different man i got that perfect on there didn't i looks great yeah she looks like a little fox canvas come here so this is canvas she is a palm husky mix she's got little red ears and look at her little she is like too cute right she is like a crazy little fox so we're gonna let that dry a little bit i'm gonna put her in the front room hopefully she stays there i'm thinking what i want to do up here so you see how i have some overspray of the white where i painted it white and there's another overspray from the paint what you do with that is our stencils comes with a blackout so once all this is dry you can stick this up here if you want to leave this black that's completely up to you or if you want to spray a little i think what i'm gonna do is do a glow around this i want to make sure everything is nice and black because i want it to be very bright so we can do some glow and around that this is what i get for being impatient yep see don't be impatient like me i'm just trying to show y'all crazy how that is not dry that purple does not want to dry or this black that's not very fun is it oh well so let's do this what we're gonna do is we're gonna put a word up here in neon and we'll go on the outside of this so it looks like we have some neon on the outside and then there'll be a word in there as well how do i have a white pencil over here see you gail all right so let's lift this up it seems like this is a little hazy and i don't know what it is hold on a second y'all and it looks a little better all right so let's put we're gonna put the word love up here because it's positive and we like positivity in our lives we're gonna do that we're gonna do we're gonna make sure we do this very wide so that we have enough room to make it a nice thick neon piece that'll be fun right all right so what we want to do is do this and what color should we do this in we might as well do it in pink since we have a good size pink marker i thought we had a big fat red one so we need to make this dark and then what we do is we spray a bright color around the dark and then go in with white so that needs to be solid let's just do it in pink because pink is good that's that's always a nice fun color so you guys know how when neon is made there's always a stop sometimes when it comes to like a new letter or to the end of a letter or crossing over a letter so i'm gonna have i'm gonna do that to some of it not all of it always get comfortable if you're not comfortable painting it's not going to come out the way you like it turn your piece of artwork however you need it to be comfortable to paint you get uncomfortable turn it move it put it put it somewhere else that looks fun all right now we're going to take use spray paint y'all you guys should we use spray paint or should we use airbrush i'm scared use spray paint but that's what's really going to make this glow i think she was whining she was not whining she was eating her toy all right so i have this very controllable well thank you yeah Erica would say that so we're just gonna we're just gonna kind of go over this we're just gonna make this nice and bright make it like it's glowing oh you know what let's let's dry this up a little bit let's put a white line in the middle of that a little bit more solid not happy with that that looks a lot better so what we're going to do is we'll use a white posca pen and then we'll go over this with some darker fuchsia so it makes it look like it's glowing we got to turn the airbrush on so the compressor is going to be a little loud she's just in there having a blast by herself this is all dry so you want to be you want to take this kind of slow so that you get your basically what this is is the neon tube so you want to get this directly in the middle but if it doesn't it's all right nobody's gonna be paying attention but wait till i get out of line and then i'm gonna get really mad it already looks like neon when you put that little tube in the middle that looks so good and then wait till we spray it out fuchsia over it he already has the run of the house all right i know this e is a little big isn't it there i go getting out of bounds this is just for fun move this to get comfortable take your time and be careful when you're using these posca pens because if you're if you're drawing with these and don't realize that you're pushing down that paint will come running out of there and it is not fun she wants back over the pin now all right so i got some of this dark fuchsia here raspberry but it's transparent so it'll go over this and hopefully it'll make this glow a little bit like on the black so that it's really showing up we're gonna hope we're gonna hope this shows up the only problem with this paint is it's very thick luckily this is pretty thin and i have my air turned up so yeah that looks like it's glowing there and then wait till you hit this with the black light we're gonna have to hit this one time with the posca pen as well and even if you want go on the outsides hit that hit the dark part so it really looks like it's it's glowing i wish this paint was a little bit more opaque is a stencil something you have credit to and if so how if on a piece um i mean if you design if you design a stencil it's yours i mean i i i i guess i don't understand like i mean i designed these all our lip lip pieces i didn't just take them from the internet and make my own stencils i hand drew all these and then manipulated them and cut and then cut them out made them my own the stencil is just something we create to help you help you work faster smarter not harder if you're talking about copyright stuff i i couldn't tell you all right so what i'm gonna do here because i just airbrush this i'm going to spray some matte spray pretty put some matte clear over this so that uh i can put another posca pen over this because this uh airbrush paint is very thin and it's water-based so if you try to paint over it with a marker it's not going to look very well so what i'm going to do is put some just some matte clear over it so that it's protected and there's like a little cover over it then you can draw back on it and it makes it darker i'm so glad i have my exhaust on i'm not even spraying that much thank you paulo i'll get this and if i want it i probably could just put some white in the uh airbrush and just go on the inside of this but i want this to be nice and solid so it looks like a neon piece but you have to make sure this is nice and dry your paint marker will stick to this you don't want that so we're going to put a little bit more heat than normal and i'm going to go in here and fix all this stuff up with a posca pen this is what this is what makes stencils fun you just go in and finish all your lines and if you want to add some more you can add as many or don't add any completely up to you what i think i'm going to do is i'm going to darken this up right here this shadow i have some black right here in my airbrush hope this is clean this out and i'm just barely hitting it so that i can just get just a little bit of a darker part right here in the corner of the mouth and right up here at the top of the lip gives it a little bit more dimension i need to clean this airbrush all i really need the inside of this lip it'd be easier to get this nice and tight if i had that stencil i'm gonna put a little bit of dark right here and these teeth make them look like they're just underneath i'm holding this so far back i don't have a lot of control on this airbrush always make sure your airbrushes are clean people so let's go back up to this neon take our posca pen again and start slowly like i like to start just a little bit down from where the neon starts so it gives it more of a glow at the end i just put a mark there this is gonna be fun here look how fun that looks how fun what's up tim thank you what is that lia every time i start to try to read y'all's comments my contacts are like no that sounds fun alisa jeff can you use colored pen colored pens um you could use if you wanted to use uh yes i mean the glow is just easier with the airbrush um but what i like to do is start with a dark like a pretty good size dark with pens if you're making it if you're trying to make it look like neon with pens a nice size dark letter like that the glow then go a little bit lighter inside of that same color like a lighter pink and then do white thinner on the inside so that it looks like it there's a you know a gradual glow with it if you're if you're just using paint pens or pencils maybe sometimes i like to stop the neon so it looks like it's not all connected at certain spots like right here that's a neon it's fun this piece right here or that but i do have a light purple over that's that we could probably just go back and spray paint it but see what this will do it's a little darker but this is what we can do with that we can add some graphics to your lettering a little filler stuff to make it look like you took some time and extra stuff here nice and fun i want to do you if you want you don't have to you can put like some highlights on your on your teeth maybe just like your teeth just to kind of make make their teeth pop a little bit that's just if you feel comfortable does that say a hundred years ago uh tim i used to go to this guy when i lived in wichita kansas he used to sit and basically let me watch and make neon like it was pretty awesome all right now i know what i want to do i want to outline this like a light blue this is my light blue if you if you feel like this is just too solid it's kind of out there unfinished get you a get you a color that you like you're sure you don't go you don't touch the neon it really goes good with that with that pink girl dog awfully quiet it's funny because you think oh she's quiet she's into something nope she's asleep i forget how much puppy sleep looks great it looks good oh man if i had if i could um yes paula we do make uh we sell our stencils um on artisteldebt.com i would love to make neon i i mean i like led lights but neon there's nothing like neon i think steady hand do line work my lines would be all squealy well lisa uh i don't drink coffee and i don't smoke um so maybe that might do it if you smoke or drink coffee that's completely fine with me i'm just i've been doing this for a while um and i've gotten to the point where i don't realize it but how how physical i am with my hand and how i touch the board whenever i'm doing a letter and i try to do the whole letter in one and one motion and instead of using my my wrist i use my whole arm if that makes sense i use my i use my shoulder like i i i don't i don't go like this i try not to do a lot of finger movement or wrist movement like you probably still could let's do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna take this i'm gonna try not to mess this up y'all and i'm going to just give this a little let's do it on this so see that that's like i'm not even like give it a little spatter because this is such it's so bright and we're gonna get some we're gonna get the black light out look at that look how fun that is i'm just kind of putting it on the the rounded parts kind of where it kind of sticks out a little bit feel a little splatter feel a little 80s feel whoo that's fun right where is my black light at hold on two two minutes y'all let me look for my black light it's probably sitting right in front of me it was all right i'm gonna try to turn this right now does that make a difference oh murdered look at that y'all oh my god how fun is that and it doesn't even do it justice in person with these yellows and greens that is so much fun it looks electric right let's see if i can bring it in a little bit oh it's not gonna do it you can't see it but all the little splatters that are here like look at these little splatters that looks like really good with the neat with the light shazam that's right so there you go how much fun is that this is the only thing y'all you see i put white right here over this i used a fluorescent yellow right here and then i put white over it this is the only thing i don't like about that is when you put the the light on it the neon light or the fluorescent it turns it like a dark color it just makes the backside glow the white does not glow at all and no reason why that white's not showing up is because there's a fluorescent raspberry over it over that pink there you have it y'all we're gonna sign it if somebody's interested in this it's for sale we've got a ski trip coming up i want some walking around money you guys know what walking around money is i like to say that we're walking around money see here you know what let's sign it inside the defeating part so it looks like it's a part of it by the beam oh right on that came out a lot different than what i thought it would y'all should have seen the one i did before by the boom that's right thank you sticky art thank y'all for hanging out with me doing this i really appreciate it this is one of a kind here oh and you know what this is one of our cradleboards that i made so that i could put lights on the back of this baby i should have lined that up here so it comes out the bottom but if somebody gets it and they want lights on it it'll just come out the side right here it'll be all right and then it can have a glow of whatever color you like pink would be amazing i would love uh if you guys got our stencils i would love to see you're welcome pala i love to do artist collab i haven't done one in a long time i would love to i have a piece that my friend sent to me and i keep forgetting about it and it's just this really large like 36 by 24 paper it's probably bigger than that i just haven't done anything on it because i want to make sure that i want to like do something amazing on it because he did colored marker that's a big skull so whoo i gotta figure out what i want to do for that that's so fun y'all i think i want to i don't there's like some parts where it looks like the paint came off so i'm gonna thanks vamp and uh everybody who is mods tonight um tim you can and i and i probably would if i had a lot more airbrush on it but since i already did the matte spray um after i did the airbrush like that's the only airbrush on there well i guess besides some of that i did some of the teeth um i could spray it matt it'd probably make it pop even more um but what i would really like to do is put resin over this can you imagine what that would look like with shiny gloss resin over it i think that would be amazing that's so fun i'm gonna have to tell people to go over here from tiktok to watch me make this yeah kim i uh i'd like to put some lights behind that if somebody wants to buy this i might do it anyways my friend jd just moved in uh just a couple doors down from us on the same floor and uh he's got tons of wall space so i think i'm just gonna put all the artwork that didn't sell at the show and the new stuff over there so that we can have it up and if somebody wants to come see it they can go over to jd's because we have no room we have no wall space look there y'all go hope you guys had fun hope you learned something um i don't consider myself a teacher i just kind of show you how i do it and what works for me um if it inspires you if it helps you out that is 100% a plus and it makes me smile um you guys are awesome for hanging out that's for sure especially when the sound is bad uh we haven't charged those mics in about a week so but those mics are really good and i have my uh look at this this is my homemade those are two fans together there's wood up top there's a there's a piece of wood here and a piece of wood here and i screwed them together and i put and i put the filters so that i'm catching all the paint so i'm not making the polar caps melt thanks lisa the sleeping dog is a good dog that is true she's asleep right now too and she gets into everything and she has no idea what a puppy pad is she sees it she walks right by it and just does her little puppy thing get a fabulous job thank you i love this piece that's a great piece i love it theresa walking around money get out of here yeah i'm we we try we take her out into the atrium um and there's not like there's like maybe one or two dogs uh that are in this the in our area in the floor but they don't come through where we where we are so we let we let her run around with bowie in that area so that she can run and play and have an awesome time and then bowie gets used to her if you all saw that that video that bowie that bowie that erica posted bowie's getting used to her she's a little bit too much for him right now but uh i can't wait till she gets a little bigger he's gonna love it he likes bigger dogs thank you so much for that donation that that's amazing i appreciate that and uh i don't want anybody to feel like they have to do that it's always a plus but supporting is 100 the cheapest thing you could do is share this tell people about us um and subscribe and like and comment and if you don't like it at least give us some constructive criticism on what we should do how we should do it maybe a little bit more to your understanding which is completely acceptable if you want to say bad stuff then um we have people that um don't like that and then we have to tell them to not say bad stuff to you so we have some loyal friends and followers so with that said have an awesome Monday night i'm gonna go wash my hands um and always remember be kind to one another because you never know what somebody's going through and always remember here at artist till death studios dallas texas we do the test so you don't have to you guys have an awesome rest of your night tomorrow it's tuesday we go we go live at two o'clock on tuesday um so y'all have an awesome awesome day i appreciate that thanks fam you guys have an awesome night bye


Hello and welcome to today's debate on Open Borders made possible by the Foundation for Economic Education and the Arthur N. Roop Foundation. My name is Jason Riddle. I'm the college programs manager at FEE where our mission is to inspire, educate and connect future leaders with the economic, ethical and legal principles of a free society. We're hosting this debate as part of our summer debate series where you can learn more about this debate as well as other debates in the series at FEE.org. I want to welcome all the students here in our live audience in Golden Colorado as well as everybody watching from around the world on our live streaming site FEE.org backslash open borders, or borders debate, excuse me. To start things off I'm going to introduce the resolution we're going to be debating. I'm going to introduce today's participants and finally I'm going to explain the format of how we are going to proceed today. The resolution we're going to be debating is territorial borders should be open and unrestricted allowing for the free movement of people. Dr. Jason Brennan will be supporting the resolution and David and Sarah will be opposing. Now let me introduce our debate participants. Dr. Jason Brennan is an assistant professor of strategy, economics, ethics and public policy at Georgetown University where he is also governing fellow of the Georgetown Institute for the Study of Markets and Ethics. He is the author of several books including Why Not Capitalism, Compulsory Voting, Foreign Against with Lisa Hill, Libertarianism, What Everyone Needs to Know, The Ethics of Voting and a Brief History of Liberty with David Schmidt. He's currently writing Markets Without Limits and Against Politics. Dr. Brennan writes and teaches about moral foundations of a free society, the intersections of politics, philosophy and economics and he has appeared on Fox Business, C-SPAN, NPR, Al Jazeer and CTV Canada. David and Sarah is a research associate for Homeland Security and Cybersecurity at Heritage Foundation's Douglas and Sarah Allison Center for Foreign and National Security Policy. In addition to co-authoring research paper, David contributes post on national security to Heritage's blog, The Foundry. He specializes in cyber and homeland security policy including protection of critical infrastructure. David and Sarah joined Heritage in 2012 and holds a degree in government and economics from the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, Virginia. He and his wife Kayla currently reside in Arlington, Virginia. The order with which we're going to pursue today's debate as follows. Each debate participant will deliver eight minutes for opening statements starting with the affirmative position, Dr. Brennan will follow with four minutes of rebuttal from each side then we'll have 15 minutes of questions from students in the audience. Finally we'll conclude with closing statements starting with David. And the resolution we're going to be debating today is territorial borders should be open and unrestricted allowing for the free movement of people. Dr. Jason Brennan, you have eight minutes for opening remarks. Thank you. So should we open borders? Yes, I mean we should, absolutely. Open borders are the economically efficient, egalitarian, libertarian and utilitarian way to double world product. Opening borders is not simply a moral imperative but it's actually in our self-interest. So I want to start by saying that open borders are a form of economic protectionism. You've all taken microeconomics and at some point you probably had to dry supply and demand curves and talk about the economic deadweight loss of having tariffs and import quotas. Labor restrictions are just import quotas on labor.  You can measure the deadweight loss from having restrictions on immigration. So surprisingly there's a number of papers that have been written on this and published in peer-reviewed academic journals and the median estimate of the deadweight loss from closed borders is 100% of world GDP. Low estimates are about 70%, high estimates are about 150%. What do I mean by that? There's a nice review article you should read by Michael Clements called Trillion Dollar Bills in the Sidewalk that was published in the Journal of Economic Perspectives reviews all the papers that have been published on this. The typical, that means that world product right now should be about $150 trillion but because the nations of the world have a closed borders regime it's only about $75 trillion. We've destroyed an entire earth's worth of production by closing borders. So cost benefit analysis says any bad stuff that comes from open immigration, any bad stuff that comes from open borders had better be worth $75 trillion. It better be the evils of immigration should be more than $75 trillion or you should be in favor of it. So already we're talking about a $75 trillion problem by closing borders. Okay, but what about the moral aspect of this? So I'm going to borrow here a thought experiment from the philosopher Michael Humor at just down the street actually in Boulder, Colorado. He has a paper he says, imagine there's a guy named Starving Marvin. Marvin is starving and he is about to go to the market in order to sell something that will prevent him from starving. He has something that someone at the market would like to buy and he just manages to get there to the market. He'll sell it and become and he'll stop starving.  There's something wrong with you on your market. So you push him away and then he goes and starves. He starves to death. In the second version of this thought experiment Marvin is just really, really poor and if you can get to the market he'll sell something that will make him 10 to 20 times richer. But once again you intervene and stop him from selling something. So as a result he stays poor. So Michael Humor says, in this case his blood is on your hands. It's not your fault that he was starving in the first place and it's not your fault that he was poor in the first place. That's just bad luck. But you actively intervene to prevent him from making a life saving or a life changing trade.  This is more like you see a homeless person who's watching someone else's car and then you intervene and scare them both away so he doesn't get the money. So you're actively intervening to cause harm. You're actively intervening to prevent somebody from making a trade with a willing stranger. That's what closed borders are. It's the imposition of violence against people who would like to make trades with one another. Now, so on its face Humor says closed borders look kind of evil. They're just kind of evil. But maybe it's just a prima facie case against them. Maybe when we look at the costs of open borders maybe we'll find out that this apparently evil thing is justified. Maybe we'll find out and make sense to restrict immigration. So what are the main arguments that people give in favor of restricting borders, in favor of restrict immigration? These are what they are. It's that immigrants will cause crime. Immigrants will lower our wages. Immigrants will sully our culture. Immigrants will consume too many welfare services or that they'll vote the wrong way. Now, one thing I want you to notice is that there's kind of an asymmetry in how people think about this. One thing that economists like to do when they think about economic protectionism is if you're talking to the typical person in America who is an economic protectionist, that person will say there should be tariffs between Canada and the United States. And the economist who will be in favor of free trade will say, well, if you're in favor of having, if these are your reasons for favoring tariffs between Canada and the United States, why shouldn't we also have tariffs between Virginia and Maryland or between Colorado and Arizona? In fact, why don't we have tariffs between Denver and Boulder? And why don't we have restrictions between neighborhoods inside of Boulder and inside of Golden Colorado? Whatever the argument is for having import restrictions between countries should also imply restrictions inside of countries, shouldn't it? There's no obvious reason to have it stick to countries. So we could say similar things about immigration. I live in Fairfax County, Virginia. It's one of the most affluent parts of the country. Median household income is $110,000. In my neighborhood, it's $135,000. Crime is basically nothing that we have basically in every demographic factor. We're really good, like really good in education. Our schools are great. Our parks are great. Everything's great. We have an open border with places that are much poorer. Right now, anyone from Buffalo County, South Dakota, median income is $6,000 per person, could move there. Why don't we stop them from coming in? Why don't we just restrict them? Why don't we restrict people from Harlem County, Kentucky, from coming into Fairfax, Virginia? Whatever argument you want to give for restricting trade of labor or labor mobility between countries should also apply to labor mobility within countries. So with that, let me move to the arguments that people give. Crime, immigrants cause crime. Seems plausible. After all, places with a lot of immigrants are places of high crime. But does that mean the immigrants are causing crime? Turns out no. Turns out the reason there are a lot of immigrants in high crime places is because immigrants tend to be poor. They move to places that are cheap and places that are cheaper high crime. How do we know this? We study it. Sociologist Robert Samson found that Mexican immigrants are only half as likely to commit crime as third generation or greater Americans of any nationality. Economist Christian Butcher and Ann Peele found that immigrants are incarcerated one-fifth the rate of the native born. Milo Bianchi and his colleagues got similar results for Italy. And every single paper I've read that tries to study immigrant crime rates finds that they're less likely to commit crime than domestic people. So the stereotypical white Southern guy that goes, er, stealing our jobs is something like three times more likely to commit any kind of crime than the people he's complaining about. So it just turns out to be mistaken. What about wages? That's a sensible worry. It's a sensible worry that if you have a flood of immigrants, they're going to depress wages. Because what you're doing there is you're thinking of the economy as a stagnant thing and immigrants are just people who consume jobs. But a better way of thinking about it is that labor is a resource. And having a flood of labor is a flood of a new resource. So do they depress wages? Once again, the only way to know this is to study it. So economists almost uniformly find that immigration increases domestic wages for everybody except one group, uneducated people who have a high school diploma or less and work at unskilled labor jobs. But even the most pessimistic economists out there I know about this guy named Borjas at Harvard, he thinks even then we're talking about a 5% loss to the worst-off workers in the US for a few years and then after that they'll probably be better off too. So what do we do about that? Well, if I could wave a magic wand that would make everyone in this room a million dollars richer and one person $50,000 poorer, it's not technically afraid to efficient, that person's worse off. But we could just pay that person off. The rest of us who have these massive gains could just pay off that person and she'll be happy too. So that's what we can do with open borders. Most people will be winners, most people have their wages go up according to the economic studies. So let's do it and pay off the losers and then they'll be happy as well. When it comes to culture, I would just very quickly say that high-culture areas are places with a lot of culture, places with a lot of immigrants. Our cultural lands are places without immigrants. And finally on welfare, here's the thing, right now we're not paying poor Haitians welfare. We're sticking them in Haiti and not allowing them to come here where they can get a better life and we're not paying them welfare. If we can't afford to pay people welfare, fine, don't pay them welfare, but let them come in, let them come to the US where they'll make more money and be better off and still don't pay them welfare. Either way, you're not paying them anything out of the welfare state, but in one case they're much better off and in the other case they're not. Thank you, Dr. Brennan. David and Sarah, you have eight minutes for your opening statement. Thank you, Jason. When we start with a few things that we all agree on, we all agree that the current immigration system is broken. It's broken, it's overwhelmed, it's unworkable. Central questions are how do we fix this problem? There are some other areas where we agree. We can currently agree that there's a humanitarian crisis going on at the border, just a few hundred miles or less than that, south of us now. Right now, children are being encouraged across our borders, often by themselves. This year it's estimated that 90,000, 90,000 unaccompanied children will cross our borders. Many of these children are from El Salvador, Guatemala, or Honduras, where I was just two days ago. We must reunite these children with their families and keep these families together in their home countries rather than risk the health and safety of these children in their dangerous march northward. We can also agree that the United States would benefit greatly from attracting high skilled workers. There's no debate about this, we all agree. This is where the economic benefits of immigration reform can be found. Benefits like small business creation, improved productivity, and job growth. This is why the European Union, China, South Korea, all the other nations of the world are competing with us and with all the other nations in the world to attract high skilled workers. We need to have a simple and effective system to allow high skilled workers to come, work, and live here. Now there are some areas of sharp disagreement as you can tell. Some advocate for a one-size-fits-all solution, solutions like open borders. This is Professor Brennan's view. He has called open borders a moral imperative and has said that they are the most efficient and best policy outcome. Respectfully, I disagree. Such an action would be a disastrous mistake, a colossal blunder that would be irreparably harm this country. Open borders would encourage millions of people to come here, overwhelming our ability to pay and provide for social services, assimilate newcomers, and protect our citizens. Open borders have powerful and dangerous consequences. This goes beyond theory and guesses. We would be inviting the entire world here and we can't afford to be wrong about this. For example, most nations in the world cannot afford the level of government services and benefits that they currently provide. Adding millions of poor immigrants to the roles of already unsustainable government programs would only drive nations further into debt, strangling their economies with debt and taxes. A report by the Heritage Foundation looked at the cost of honesty for 12 million unlawful immigrants and discovered that over the course of their lifetimes, taxpayers would likely pay more than $6 trillion in fiscal costs, likely erasing whatever economic benefits might come from these lower skilled workers. And that's just the cost for 12 million folks. 6.3 trillion would be a drop in the bucket compared to the trillions in debt that would accumulate as hundreds of millions come to the US and other nations as a result of open borders. I know some people don't like these conclusions, but we have to follow these facts where they lead us. I have strong confidence in the study and I would encourage you to look it up on Heritage's website and read it for yourself. It's called the physical cost of honesty. Be a smart consumer of the information you're hearing. Often critics offer justification for open borders by citing dead weight. That is the uncreated wealth that occurs because poor people remain in poverty around the globe. I agree that coming to an economically advanced country gives the poor around the world better opportunities. But we also know that generous welfare and entitlement systems discourage hard work, marriage, success. We don't have to look any further than our own inner cities to see the welfare trap in full swing, pulling down many of the people who want to escape it. And so while I agree that many, most people from around the world would have a better life by coming to an advanced economy, many would get that better life on the backs of current taxpayers. As Milton Freeman, the famous libertarian economist said, it is one thing to have free immigration to jobs, it is another to have free immigration to welfare and you cannot have both. And so, many who are for open borders also argue that we could refuse services and benefits to immigrants to guarantee against taxpayer loss. But these actions would detonate an intense and divisive debate with hundreds of millions of people attracted to our countries and then left out. If you think we have a crisis now, wait until we tell immigrants that they can't access social services or qualify for benefits. We would be creating a two-tiered, unequal, yet legal system of rights and benefits for millions of immigrants. I also want to talk about the national security concerns that come with open borders. I know Professor Brennan probably shares my worries here and open border is an open invitation to criminals, especially those who have been attempting to extend their lawlessness across our southern border. We need to work with Mexico and the rest of Latin America to continue their efforts to contain and eliminate the violence of drug cartels and other criminal organizations. We cannot have this lawlessness spill across our borders. We cannot turn San Diego, El Paso, Dallas, Albuquerque, or even Denver into war zones. And that is no exaggeration. These cartels are looking for more profit, fighting for control of territory and ruthlessly expanding whenever possible. To these organizations, an open border would be a further encouragement, an irresistible temptation, an enticing business opportunity for the extension of their empire and eventually an undefendable capitulation by the US. Some would say, well, we'll keep these bad guys out. Well, how? How can we determine who is bad and stop them without some system to restrict who comes across our borders? We need a system to protect our borders and ports of entry from dangerous people. And by definition, this is not an open and unrestricted border. We cannot have it both ways at once. I've spoken about criminality, drug cartels. My background is in homeland security. And I believe that an open border would also allow terrorists to come to this country without any chance of screening or stopping them. Look at what has happened to other countries that can't control their borders. Countries like Yemen, Pakistan, or Somalia, they have become havens for terrorists. The same would happen here if we adopted open borders. Terrorists would come here to incubate, swarm, and multiply using our own freedoms against us. We are their target. Let's not fool ourselves here. So we place the citizens of our country in grave jeopardy with open borders. The immigration debate is a tangled web of complex, often contradictory, emotional, and challenging policies. But we can untangle this web. We can do this by stepping back from the headlines, the posturing, the demagoguery, and focus separately on each part of the immigration problem. We can do more to open our borders to high skilled immigrants, to create temporary worker programs for seasonal occupations, and make a legal immigration system that's simple and easy to use. We should do this. We should build a system that harnesses the power of the free movement of individuals and labor across borders, but is bounded by fiscal and security realities. Doing so will allow us to build a more rational, free, secure, and workable system. Thank you. Thank you, David. Dr. Brennan, you now have four minutes to respond. Okay, great, thanks. So let's start with the stuff about danger.  Did you see the big gang fight between Kors and Anheuser-Busch last night, where they were shooting each other, right? No, there wasn't. The purpose of the drug war, Milton Friedman said, is to enrich drug cartels. Like the reason that we have violence in cartels is because we make something that people want illegal, and then it's still supplied, and it's supplied illegally on the black market by violent people. We used to have that with the provision of alcohol in the 1920s. We don't anymore because we legalized it. It's pretty clear. It's basically every economist agrees with this at this point that the drug war creates more violence, doesn't get rid of drugs, and creates more crime. That's just what the studies show. That's what the evidence shows. So I feel like it's like, we're doing something really dumb, which is having the war on drugs.  And here, should we then restrict borders for that reason? I don't think so. So get rid of the war on drugs too. I say similar things about terrorism. There's a reason that we are the target of terrorism is because we're not very nice to other countries. It's because we abuse them and hurt them. As far as the welfare restrictions, we already have a two-tiered system here. It's just rather than having a two-tiered system of people living in the country, and being better off, they have a two-tiered system where we force them to stay in their own countries and are worse off. We already have that. So why not let them come in? As far as like the loss to the welfare system, I'm gonna cite some papers. I'll see the Glazer and Sasser Dotae in 2001, Guy Lenz in 1999. There's a guy from BGMU named Gawkin or there was a paper coming out recently. It shows that when you have high immigration, welfare benefits tend to go down because people don't really want to pay welfare benefits to people that are not ethnically similar to them. So what would the government do? It would probably reduce welfare benefits if we had high immigration. It would have to. We can't actually afford to pay that. So when you look at the papers or in peer-reviewed journals, they don't say that it's gonna be a welfare disaster. And if it were, it's like you just can't, literally can't afford to pay welfare benefits to the entire world. So don't, that's the solution. But you can improve everybody's welfare by allowing them in. If we are really worried about, and also like economists, they say like the value of labor here, of having open borders, is not to get high-skilled labor. It's to get low-skilled labor. Low-skilled labor is really useful and valuable. It makes stuff like your water bottles and this, this pen. It's a useful resource. We want that too. It's not just high-skilled workers that we want. Will a million people or a billion people move here overnight if we open borders? Again, I want you to think about why is it that not everyone from Harlan County, Kentucky is moving to Fairfax County, Virginia, when they could have their income go by a factor of six? There's already market forces at work that explain why they don't move. Things about cultural differences, things about the cost of housing, things about whether they can get a job and so on. These sorts of informal mechanisms regulate the flow of labor. They would regulate the flow of labor when it comes to trade or labor between countries as well. So again, if we're worried about these problems, and these are reasons to keep all people from Honduras, I just want to say, why aren't there reasons to just get rid of a bunch of Americans? Let's take the criminal Americans and deport them. Let's take the people who consume welfare and put them in Mississippi and then make Mississippi no longer a state. If these are reasons to forbid people from coming in, there are also reasons for kicking people out. If certain people from the third world are in danger to us and certain people who are already here are in danger to us, let's get rid of them. Why is there an asymmetry? I don't know where that's coming from. Thank you. I'd like to remind the audience that we'll be fielding your questions after David's response. So be thinking about what you might want to ask our participants. David, you have four minutes for rebuttal. Thank you. Professor Brennan spoke of fairness and justice. These are good words and important goals, but he asks us to imagine being born in a different place or a different time. He encourages us to share our wealth and our nation with the world. But I think we should also consider a different aspect of justice, which is the justice and fairness of for taxpayers who are here now to have to pay for those fiscal costs. There are some studies out there, but like I said, he mentioned that's gonna be, we don't, because we don't want to pay them benefits. When there's millions of people who are here who are want to be citizens, they want to get benefits, it's gonna cause quite a debate when we continually tell them no, no, no, and their population continues to grow over time. We also want to talk about justice and protection in terms of, for protection for our citizens. I don't think that it's just because of the United States policies around the world that we, that terrorists want to come here and hurt us. They fundamentally disagree with everything we stand for. They hate liberty, they hate everything that we hold near and dear. Right now, the most, arguably the most open border in the United, in the world is between Iraq and Syria. Do we want to replicate that here? Have any of those freedom fighters who freely move between those two countries to allow them to come here just as easily? The war in Syria has almost nothing to do with us. We told, we told them we had a red line, then we ignored that red line. So what exactly is our intervention in Syria that's making those fighters want to come here and kill us? Well, that we know that they are trying to do so. They're working with the best bond maker in the world right now to plan a tax against us. But right now we have security at our embassies overseas. That's why you may have heard about that restriction on extra security that was beefed up at airports abroad a couple of weeks ago because they heard rumors and they had chatter that this was going on. So this security threat isn't just some America's bad and these people want to come hurt us because they fundamentally disagree with us and they want to come here to kill us. Regarding drug cartels and trafficking, well, I would agree to a certain extent that perhaps the drug issue is part of it, but they'll traffic in anything. It's not just illicit drugs. Unless we're willing to say all drugs are now legal, every single drug, which I don't think some people would say yes, some people would probably say no to all drugs, but let's say it's not drugs.  They will use their existing networks to traffic any material that we consider to be illicit and wrong and they will use those networks to bring these people and to do us harm. So the criminality argument though, clearly the drug angle could possibly resolve by legalizing all drugs, that doesn't solve the problem still. They still will wanna bring in people and weapons and other things which are dangerous to the United States. Well, thank you both very much. We're now gonna move into a period of Q and A taking audience questions. First question please. This is for Dr. Brennan. If you live by the border, you have certain people that really want to harm you for your things. And so I was just curious how in open borders, how's that gonna fix this problem?  I don't think that was the case. I don't know where you're getting that claim. Do you have any evidence for that claim? No, I do know it's not safe to go in the mountains, very much. I mean, I used to live in Tucson and I know about the stuff that's happening there. There's a lot of violence that occurs and a lot it has to do with the fact that borders are closed. You have people who, they call them coyotes, they traffic in getting people across the border and they don't want to get caught because they'll get arrested and so on. So if you make it legal, you get rid of, you no longer have criminals who are doing the shipping. So I think a lot of the violence is coming from that. But the average person from Mexico, first of all, right now there's no net migration from Mexico, by the way, because they're gotten so rich that it's not worth for them to move here. But if you wanna take care of the problem, you're causing the problem by making it illegal in the first place, and there's no more violence. Thank you. Next question. Mr. Brennan, I wish we lived in a world where this was possible to have no tariffs or anything, but different countries have such different governments, different laws, different politics, different political leaders. How do you think this could ever be feasible to implement? Yeah, it's probably not feasible to implement. Here's my reason for thinking that. The argument for open borders is simply the argument that Adam Smith is making in the wealth of nations against protectionism. It's that it's to our benefit, it's our self-interest to do it, it enriches us to do it, and then just applying that consistently. Adam Smith wrote The Wealth of Nations in 1776 against an economic philosophy he dubbed mercantilism. We know from surveys the average American is a mercantilist, so he's convinced the economist and no one else.  So I think it's highly unlikely that we'll ever actually do this, to be frank. Hi, this question is for David and Sarah. The humanitarian crisis at the border with kids crossing into America, many people say it's a cause of a loophole in a law that protects kids. And so if we had open borders, then children wouldn't be crossing by themselves, they'd be coming with their parents. So isn't that an argument for open borders? I would say that we would certainly increase the safety of children if they were crossing with their parents and not through these illegal means. That's certainly true. However, as I've mentioned, just because there are good people who are wanting to cross the borders, that doesn't mean that there are also people who would want to do us harm. There are people like these drug cartels that are going to get rid of the drug angle. There's always going to be something that they want to bring to the United States that's illegal and illicit. And if we open up the borders to lots of good people who they may want to just work, there's going to be people who sneak in who are going to want to hurt us. And I would also just say that, come back to that welfare argument, which is that if we allow these folks to gain access to our welfare systems, they are going to end up costing us lots of money in the long run. So yes, it would decrease the humanitarian, the violence aspect if we allow for open borders. But at the same time, I think we would be harming ourselves and bringing violence here to the United States. Thank you. Next question, please. This question is for Dr. Brennan. And it is a bit of a lengthy question, so I apologize. You told the story of starving Marvin, or in the second case, poor Marvin. And the impression I got from that story, and I may be incorrect in this, was that anybody who doesn't support open and unrestricted borders must be someone who wants to close down the borders completely and shut down immigration entirely. And I feel like that's ignoring a considerable chunk of the population. I personally believe, and I'm sure there are people who agree with me, that we should allow immigrants in, but they should go through the process of becoming a legal citizen, or at least obtain a visa, as they would have to in any other country, or we would have to in any other country. And if starvation or poverty is a problem in that process, then maybe we should focus on reforming and the process for becoming a citizen or obtaining a visa. What do you say to that? If you're talking about making it much easier to get in, then I'm all in favor of that. Right now it's really difficult to move to the United States. You need to either have certain kinds of skills, your engineering degrees and things like that, or you have to have certain kinds of relatives here, or otherwise you just have to basically win a lottery. So the poorest people in the world who don't have a lot of skills, they're not allowed to move here unless they win that lottery, and most of them are going to fail. So that's why they come illegally, because they know that there's no, like the chances of them getting in and becoming a citizen through legal means right now are vanishingly small. I won the lottery. It happened to have been more American, but they lost that lottery. So the serving Martin thought experiment, the purpose that was just to point out that like when you intervene, you are intervening, you aren't simply failing to help, but you're causing that. So what a closed border system is, is the following, it's I want to pay someone from Honduras to clean my house and you guys won't let me. You're using guns to stop me. That's what humor is pointing out and I agree with him. It's the imposition of violence from some subset of society against the other rest of society to restrict them from making trades. That's the purpose of that thought experiment. It's not meant to be directly on just discussing like exactly how we have passed the citizenship created. Thank you. I just want to jump in a little bit here and just say that talking about ways to make the border more open. As I mentioned at the end of my remarks, I'm all four ways in which we can make the legal immigration easier and simpler to use and we need to make it so that there are more legal opportunities to come here. I would say we focus on high-skill labor. That doesn't mean we eliminate low-skill labor, certainly not. We have, right now we give out about 14% of our green cards every year for employment-based reasons. We give out 66% for family-based reasons. All I'm saying is we should have more people coming here for employment-based reasons because of their skill because they want to work here, not for family-based reasons. So certainly let's open up the system, make it easier and let's just target it in ways in which we can gain more economic benefit. And for folks who are low-skill, temporary worker programs are great ways to bring in those laborers. It harnesses the power of the free movement of borders. Someone from Honduras can come to the United States, work for a certain amount of period of time and then go back home. They can earn good money by the same time. It doesn't impose the same security or fiscal costs on the United States. Dr. Brennan, I think that the argument you make is an empathetic one, but we know that in the United States, empirically, it is difficult to scale back welfare, both for existing citizens, immigrants, anything. So that said, maybe it would be theoretically easier when you have this huge change in precedent that immigration open borders would allow. However, there are other externalities, so consider public transportation or parks, something that you can exclude from immigrants even if you don't give them direct welfare benefits. So how do you respond to that, that normal taxpayers will be on the hook for maintaining those services, that they would now be sharing? Yeah, I haven't read the Heritage Institute, or Heritage Foundation study, so I don't know what they say there, but I don't, so here's what I think about this. There have been a lot of studies about the tax implications of immigration and most of them find that the immigrants are net tax payers rather than net tax consumers. You have young people coming in, they people come because they want to work, especially if you don't make it easy for them to get welfare benefits. They come because they want to work, they get a job, they pay taxes, we already have a problem now where the country is getting to be too old, we have too many old people, they're gonna be collecting social security, and one way to solve that because we don't have a high birth rate is by allowing young immigrants in. So I disagree with the analysis here, I think that it's actually to our benefit from a fiscal perspective to allow more immigrants. Now, with any of these things, if you have a lot of people flooding into a particular city, it can strain the services that are being provided there, and that's a problem, but the good thing about it is that people are not dumb, people will make choices in light of what's happening.   If the public parks get to be overused, that place becomes less attractive, the compensating differential of living there is lower so people will move somewhere else. You have these informal market mechanisms that coordinate behavior and you don't need to have a restriction, you can just let people see this is becoming less of a good bargain because people have already moved over here and moved to a different place. So I think it's actually to our benefit from a fiscal perspective to allow in more immigration. I mean, you can't do this while having a rule that everyone has to make $36,000 a year period. We're gonna guarantee that and if you don't make that, we'll pay it. That won't work, but as long as you have lower welfare benefits, then it will. And what will we do? We literally cannot afford to pay the whole world American level of welfare benefits, so we won't. We know we won't because we just can't. It's not even an option on the table. We're not going to pay $7 trillion in welfare because we just literally can't afford it. So we'll pay less. I'll just quickly say that I agree that if we have, if we had, we want to do more to, libertarian conservative here, we both would agree that the welfare state, the entitlement systems are broken. We need to fix them, reform them absolutely. And if we were able to bring truly reform those systems, you pointed out the difficulty of doing. So if we were able to do that, then some of these other fiscal worries wouldn't melt away. However, we need to fix those systems first before we can then jump to just saying, well, welcome to everyone who wants to come. This question is directed to David and Sarah. David, you talk about the fiscal cost of amnesty for immigrants coming in through the borders, but wouldn't the solution be then to cut off the amnesty, get rid of the incentive for these illegal immigrants to come to this country illegally?  Could you elaborate on that and explain your position? Could you explain that question just a little bit?  So you're saying that if we don't do amnesty, then people will not want to come here? Is that what you're trying to say? Well, for the benefits. For the benefits. Because you talk about the fiscal cost of it. So I mean, if I'm understanding correctly, I would definitely say that if we, I would say let's not do amnesty, because the amnesty is creating incentive for people to come here illegally. And then that is just costing us money. Different studies have looked at the cost right now that right now, unlawful immigrants are net tax consumers. They consume more than they receive benefits. Education is a huge item that states have to pay for. Certain healthcare benefits, they don't gain access to all the welfare benefits, but even as illegal immigrants, they're on average they're net tax consumers. So certainly I would agree that if we do away with this talk of amnesty, that would certainly, and enforce our laws more appropriately, that would certainly contribute to less illegal immigration and less fiscal costs right now and in the future. Next question please. So hi, I wanted to ask, why do you think that immigrants are more dangerous than USN citizens? Like mostly all of the time, they're like Central American citizens that comes over here. And they're just moving here because they want a better opportunity, right? Mostly all of them. So if we think about terrorism, mostly they're not Central Americans or Mexicans, for example, doing those stuff is other places. So I wanted to know like, why don't you consider that they're dangerous if they're just working like the law skills jobs that they have over here? So I wanted to know like, why do you think that? Sure, so I would say that when we try to make this clear, I don't think that most immigrants are dangerous. I don't, I actually don't buy the necessary argument that all immigrants in immigration general causes crime. I'm talking about the cartels and other organizations and the terrorists and those organizations that have explicit purposes that are designed to harm people, to exploit laws, to break laws, these types of organizations. These people are harmful. We know that I was just in Honduras, it's got the highest murder rate in the world. There's estimates there that the drug cartels, the gangs in Honduras outnumber the military. I mean, that's a stark reality there. And to say we're gonna have open borders, okay, not all of them are gonna move to the United States, but if they see a completely new market, even if we legalize drugs, call them marketing sex slaves or weapons, that's a serious problem. If 40,000 folks just from Honduras decide that they're gonna expand to the United States. So no, not all, I definitely don't agree. Most immigrants are hard workers and they want to come here and better themselves. And many studies have actually indicated that initially they're actually less involved in crime. Yeah, because mostly all of the people that is dying in Central America, like Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras, it's because the drug passes through by our countries, but they come over here. So it doesn't make sense coming over here and distribute the drug if they're doing it that way. So most of the people are dying in Central American countries. So I think that it's a good thing of open borders. People just want a good opportunity of a better living and living safe. So basically that, thank you. Okay, so we have time for one more question. Okay, this question goes to Jason Brennan. In your opening remarks, you talked about that productivity in the world would double. And I looked up a study by the Global Center for Global Development, which has research that says GDP would double if we open borders. Can you explain why it would double? How does that work and why would it double? In 30 seconds? In 30 seconds. Yeah. That, that's the answer. It looks like that. No, I can't do in 30 seconds. Read the Clemens article and it'll explain how they measure dead weight loss. That's like, we'd have to, I'd have to teach you supply and demand curves and then go over dead weight loss and how we estimate the fallout. And it would take, it would be two days of class. So sorry about that. But you can read those articles and explain it. All right, well thank you very much and thank you to the audience for the questions. We're now gonna move into a period of closing statements, three minutes of closing statements starting with David and Sarah. So the current debate that we're having right here and in general across our country on immigration really offers us an opportunity to address this really complex issue. And we have to get this right. Whatever decisions we make will have ripple effects and huge consequences in the decades to come. It's no exaggeration to say that the system and incentives that we construct in the current debate we're having now will be felt worldwide. If we want wealth creation, economic progress, we must put in place a system that makes it easier for people to come here. High school workers, a temporary worker program to provide businesses with the labor they need and by doing so without imposing fiscal costs on our nation. If we want to address the humanitarian crisis on our boards, we must do more to work with Central American countries and to return children to their families as soon as possible. And then focus on combating the crime and corruption which we just talked about which is driving people to flee these countries. If we wanna multiply our problems and establish a vast fiscal burden for taxpayers, we would open our borders. If we want to threaten our national security from terrorism and increase the criminality of drug cartels in this country, we would open our borders. We can develop and implement a sensible, rational, clear, consistent and coherent immigration policy.  We need to utilize forms like this to develop a consensus around a workable, practical and enforceable set of policies that prudently protect everyone in the United States. And again, I wanna thank you all for being here today. Thank you very much, Dr. Brennan, your closing thoughts. Great, thank you. You know, I think the worries that David's brought up are sensible worries, but I think that they're the worries that come about from having other bad policies. Even if he's right about everything, he's not $75 trillion, right? The economic consensus is that we could have $75 trillion more made per year by having open borders regimes. We should do that, because even these costs, they're not that expensive. It would be a net gain to the world rather than a loss if we were to do it. Things about, that some other worries that people have about security. Well, you can have open borders and security. Screen everybody if they're not a terrorist you're in for any other reason. You're not a terrorist, you get to come in, okay? The cartels, we can make them weaker the way we made the mafia weaker. The mafia used to do a lot of stuff. They used to provide alcohol for everybody and they had a lot of money and they were very violent when we started making alcohol legal again in the United States. They still sell some things illegally and they're still violence associated with the mafia but they're much less of a big deal and that's what would happen with the cartels as well if we were to legalize drugs. But anyways, they're already here. It doesn't matter. They're already here. They're already doing things. The only reason we don't have more cartels in the US already is because they're fighting against the illegal drug gangs and so on that are in the US that are supplying drugs. We already have these problems. The closed borders doesn't solve them. It creates them in the first place. We have a system in which everything can be globalized except for poor labor. The world's poor are therefore sitting ducks for exploitation. If you imagine a system in which only poor people sold water and they're not allowed to move from where they're standing to go sell it and only rich people buy water and they're allowed to go anywhere they want to buy the water, that's a system under which the price of water will be very low because the poor people can't compete for a better deal whereas the rich people can always walk away for a better deal. That's exactly what we have around the world right now and so the poor low wages that you see in the third world are not the result of a free market. They result of massive protectionism, like a huge amount of protectionism. So if you don't like sweatshops, if you don't like what you see in the third world, you have to realize that this is a result of first world policies. Even the violence in Honduras is largely the result of drugs being illegal in the United States. It's our fault that this is happening over there. Immigration restrictions impose suffering pain and death upon some of the most vulnerable people in the world. So there's very good humanitarian reasons to do it but there's also selfish reasons to do it. The peer reviewed studies that I've read and I've read them all, the peer reviewed studies say that it would be a net benefit to the United States to have open borders. Some people will be losers, most people will be winners, the winners will win much more than the losers and we can just pay off the losers so that they become winners as well. So we should do it for selfish reasons, not simply for humanitarian reasons. I think no matter what perspective you take, libertarian, egalitarian, humanitarian, utilitarian, you just care what economic efficiency. You have an overwhelming case in favor of open borders. I think the facts be clearly to that as well as the moral principles. Well that concludes today's debate. Thank you both very much. Let's give our participants a round of applause. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. And if you'd like to watch this debate or the other nine debates that are part of the Summer Arena KO Series, just visit fee.org. Thank you all again very much. David, thank you. Thank you.


art of planning is to develop resourcefulness, not to depend on more resources all the time. Sometimes you'll be out of resources. You've got all the resources you're ever going to have right now. You've got no more money, no more time, no more people, no more ways to turn. You've exhausted your resources. And so what happens then is you're not to dip into what you have on board, which is always more than you realize. I've tried to teach this for years to people that when you believe what you need is more resources and you're given those resources, this is why it's a bad parenting approach to keep over resourcing children who never learn to be resourceful with little. There is the secret discovery of resourcefulness hidden within little, but you're not going to find it in much and in plenty. So, and this is why I believe, by the way, Jesus, when he sent out the 12 didn't send them out with resources, no money, no clothes, no advanced hotel bookings, nowhere to spend the night, because he wanted to teach them resourcefulness, not dependence on resources. And he's also teaching them all the resources you are going to need will be dependent on your ability to build relationships.


Hello, okay Hi, everyone. Good morning. Welcome to KnativeCon. I think it's just today, right? Anyway My name is Yi. I am a what's the title so long senior product line manager at VMR And I work most closely with Tanzu community edition now as someone working on a thing that has community in the name I am here to say a few words about why VMR Sports can native and other cloud native open source projects, too So a few more it's very important for us to always keep in mind that users We need to keep in mind that it's important and we need to provide agency so that users can basically do whatever they want however they want whenever they want and In order to achieve that We like to approach every problem from a multi-cloud open source first mindset and It's a lot of buzzwords, but what it really means is as a user you should be able to do whatever you want However you want so, you know, there's words like lock-in and a bunch of stuff. So that kind of stuff We like people to have as much flexibility as possible now Knative is a critical element in the modern application management tool chain and It's an important part in the in the collective sets of Projects and products and services that really make this whole thing that we're doing here not not just Knative con But this whole event the whole week From my users from my user perspective There's a set of things that make this whole thing worth doing and Knative is definitely a part of that So here I say March the previous presenter said February I'm gonna assume she's right So in March Knative moved to become a part of the CNCF it became an incubating project It's a milestone. We actively support and we are very very much appreciative of But I don't really not here really to talk about VMware. I'm Really here to address you and by you I mean contributors however way you contribute users People who are answering all the questions and just as importantly everyone who's asking all the questions What I want to say to you is Knative not only provides a very interesting solution to a practical technical problem but It really pushes people to think differently about The way that the solution to this problem comes about so we could talk about running workloads and all the technical bits but what I really want to focus on is that Knative is special for the simplicity and the elegance with which it provides the solution that it does and In this environment that is so full of everything all the time where everything is changing so much where we have people whose job Whose full-time job is to keep up with things and still there's more stuff going on than it's possible to keep up with in This environment the simplicity and elegance with which this community has provided answers to all of those questions It's especially important and it's really appreciated. So really to sum it up all this rambling in one slide What I really want to say is Knative community contributors users everyone providing answers and everyone asking questions what I really want to say to you is Thank you We're doing a great thing