The Mac Observers' Mac Geekab, episode 755 for Monday, April 1st, 2019. These folks, and welcome to the Mac Observers' Mac Geekab, the show where we take all your questions, all your tips, all your cool stuff found. We sort through it. We pick the best. We pick the ones that are going to fit, and then we put them all together into an agenda. And then we answer your questions. We answer your tips. We answer your cool stuff. It's like car talk for Apple users, if that makes sense. And really, the goal is that each and every one of us learns at least how many? You right. That's right. Five new things every single time we get together. No fooling. That's right. Five new things. Sponsors for this episode include PDFPenetSmileSoftware.com slash podcast keeps at Keeps.com slash MGG, Eero at Eero.com slash MGG, check out coupon code MGG2, and LinkedIn.com slash MGG. We'll talk about all those in a moment here. Here in Durham, New Hampshire, springy, warm, 60-degree Durham, New Hampshire, at least while we're recording this, I'm Dave Hamilton. And here in equally almost springy, though it's only in the 50s, though I think it will move to the 60s soon. Here in Fairfield, Connecticut, this is John F. Braun. How goes it today, Mr. John F. Braun? That was a rough week, man, especially if you use email. It's true. It's true. I want to talk about that. I just want to let everybody know. I have a spring speaking fling going on here. Let's see. I have three speaking events coming up in the next, let's say 15 days. So on Wednesday of this week, when the show comes out, Wednesday, April 3rd, I'm speaking about Wi-Fi at Mac Tech Pro in Boston. That is a for-pay event, but we have a deal for you because I told you we would have deals for you. You get $20 off the lowest price that they would offer so you can get any Mac Tech Pro, not just this week's Boston event, but any Mac Tech Pro event with our special link that will be on macgeekiep.com and the show notes for just $279.  And then two freebies, a week from Tuesday. So Tuesday the 9th, I'm speaking in Princeton, New Jersey at PMUG for their Apple user group. And then that's in the evening. And then on Saturday the 13th of April, I will be speaking, Skyping in, but speaking at the suburban Chicago Mac users group, talking about mesh Wi-Fi there. I'm actually not sure what I'm talking about in Princeton yet. I think I'm going to do backups though. I think that's going to be a good one. So there you go. My spring speaking fling if there's, you know, there you go. But yes, John, you certainly hit the nail on the head. It was interesting, right? Because as listeners, at least in the last few weeks, no, we were planning on talking about email workflows today and then on Monday, Apple released macOS Mojave 10.14.4 and everything on Monday was pretty hunky-dory for all of us. And then on Tuesday, things went sideways. If you were using a Google suite, like a custom domain email account with Gmail, and for some people, some Gmail accounts, but I think mostly this impacted Google suite accounts, but not all of them. And the issue was that macOS Mojave 10.14.4 with mail uses a different authentication method for these, it does not just log in with username and password like it used to. It does a whole Google OAuth thing, or at least it didn't used to do this for me. Maybe it did it for some of you, but where you're brought to a web page, you sign into your Google account and then it passes a token back to mail and mail says, cool, I can log in and now get your email again, except that token never got passed back. And so mail kept saying, I can't log in. Sure enough, you couldn't get email if you had to use the web. And so things sort of blew up. People talked, we all kind of came up with some solutions. One of them that worked for me was creating a new email account and using just IMAP. So essentially doing it the old way where you are logging in with username and password, right? And then someone else on Thursday or Friday came up with a solution that got really interesting because it used a piece of software called Charles. And Charles is a proxy that the best way I can explain it is it's you, when you install it and run it on your Mac and give it permission. So it's not doing any of this stuff without, you know, without your permission, but it sits in the middle of your connections, including encrypted connections because you give it a certificate and you approve this certificate. It's sort of a fake certificate, but it allows you to see the contents of these and even manipulate and alter the results that come back from these. And so someone very savvy took Charles and watched what was happening with this Google connection, saw that there was a piece of information. I think it was the email address itself wasn't coming back. And they used, they came up with a simple little script to put into Charles to insert that back into the response. And then everything worked. So it essentially spoofed this by creating what I'll call an intentional man in the middle attack, right? A helpful man in the middle attack. And then and so folks started using that and that worked great. And then late on Friday night or early Saturday morning, depending on how you how you keep time, the problem just went away. And I did some research into this and found that on Tuesday, the G Suite team had published an announcement saying they were making some changes to the way their two factor authentication worked. But timing wise, that sure seems awfully coincidental. And then the fact that everyone just like it all started working magically Friday night, this tells me that this was this was a Gmail bug. Yeah, bug maybe. Yeah, I guess that's the right word or Google suite bug. It did creep up early, early in the betas of 10.14.4 back in January, but then got then got fixed. So everyone was sort of surprised to see this, you know, see this appear back again, but I think it was a perfect storm of timing. And so if you have not yet upgraded to 10.14.4, it is safe now from well, I was going to say it's safe from an email standpoint. That's certainly true, but I think it's it's safe anyway. And and there's some good reasons to update to 10.14.4. In addition to supporting news, plus it adds dark mode support to Safari, like automatic dark mode support to Safari. If a website like MacObserver.com, which was ready on release day. Has an alternate color scheme for people that are running dark mode. Safari will now employ that color scheme. So if you're visiting the web in dark mode, you don't just get these, you know, you'll still get some like bright white background pages, but for sites that that comply, you won't. And it's kind of nice. So that so that's there. It adds support for the new AirPods. So that's kind of important. It supports various other things. But, you know, includes the quality improves the quality of audio recordings and messages. And there was a, um, the USB audio issue that was happening with the MacBook Air, the MacBook Pro and the Mac mini models that were introduced, you know, in 2018, that USB audio problem is now fixed in there. So, so there's a lot of good things that there was also some email tweaks. And that's why initially I was shaking my fist at Apple. Cause they mentioned, I think they had something like, I forget what it was. It was, uh, it was an AOL password issue. Yes. Successive requests for, uh, for a password when it's like, well, you ready have it. Why do you need it again? Right. So initially I was ready to shake my fist at Apple that they screwed something up because now fortunately, Dave, and maybe they did. I mean, it's possible that the Google thing was coincidental. We have no, no, you know, behind the scenes confirmation on this, although again, you know, I'm pretty confident based on the evidence and the timeline that it is what we just explained, but yeah, yeah. I mean, the nice thing, here's why I think you were talking about backups. Here's the nice thing about making a backup because the, the initially, you know, I couldn't access. So, you know, both my TMO and Mac e-cab emails are through Gmail. Right. I couldn't access them on my updated system. But I had a 10.14.3 backup that I do every week. And so I was able to boot into that and everything was working great because as you pointed out, the, uh, authentic, they use a different okay, authentication method in the prior OS. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So that's how I got around it. But then I also did the, you know, I created a generic IMAP account. That, that also worked for the most part. The only problem with doing the additional account, uh, it certainly worked as a workaround and I did it too, but it's a completely new account. As far as your Mac is concerned, if you sync your passwords with, uh, iCloud key chain, it will then sync that account to all your other Macs. It won't turn it on, uh, but it will be there. You can't delete the, uh, old account from what you could delete the old account from, from mail, but better to disable it because again, with iCloud key chain, that change propagates to all of your Macs. And sometimes iOS devices, that's one of those things where it's like, yes, sometimes, but not always. Uh, so, and, and then, you know, you're duplicating data, right? If you've got a, if you've got, you know, gigabytes of email on the, on an IMAP server, then when you add this new account, you have all the email that was already there on your Mac and then it's going to download a fresh copy of everything. The good news is that once, you know, once I got through all this and realized, oh, it's working the old way, great. And I deleted the new one. I watched it in the home library mail folder. I watched it delete all the old stuff or all the, you know, all the temporary stuff that I had added. So mail does tend to keep that folder cleaned up, although I found some old things in there on one of my machines. So that's another one of those folders, home library mail to go in and, and, uh, you know, check out. So anyway, the weird thing is that I didn't, I didn't get a notification in software update about the update. The reason I actually learned about the update Dave is that, um, when I tried to download server, so new version of server came out. Yep. It was like, uh, you're not on the latest OS. So, um, you can't do it. Yeah. What are you doing? And I'm like, huh, okay. So I manually downloaded the update. And that was, that was kind of weird to me is that on neither of my machines, did it show up in software update the 10.14.4? It doesn't show up there right away. Um, I've certainly seen that. And I, I don't know if that's like intentional, like, which it could be right that Apple wants to roll it out, you know, slowly for people. Because if you have automatic updates turned on, it's just going to go ahead and do it like overnight for you. So with, with the possibility of bugs like this, you know, it, it makes sense to do sort of a staged rollout, but, but yeah, I didn't, I didn't see it on mine until I launched, um, system preferences, software update. And, and then it went and looked and found it. And it was like, okay, yeah, you can have this now. So yeah, but I didn't get the notification either. I had to just go into software update and give it a minute and let it do that process where it, it, you know, it goes and looks. Oh, let's see what. So my mini, I downloaded, uh, I haven't updated my mini yet. I update my Mac pro. Yep. See, it does checking for updates and give it a minute and then usually it'll take in a while. Yep. Yep. Yep. Cause it's got to go through all the receipts and sort through it. Nope. It says, oh, no. Oh, that's weird. Okay. So first it said your machine is up to date and then the screen updated and it says, Oh, by the way, there's 10.14.4. Right. Were you? Yep. Yep. All right. Craziness. Craziness, craziness. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. And then there's a little checkbox here automatically, which yeah, I don't want to do that. Right. Right. I have it on my area of automatic software updates. Same. Any of my devices. I like to see what you guys are doing before I update. Same. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you on that. All right. Uh, let's see. Let's see. So, but we, we, as promised, you know, we have been collecting and sifting through all of your email workflows that you've sent in. So I want to, I want to go ahead and talk through all of those to actually, because I think there's a, there's a great little story to tell here, but John, if I may first, I would love to tell everybody about our first two sponsors for today. Fantastic. All right. We'd like to thank PDF pen from smile. It's smile software.com slash podcast for sponsoring today's episode. PDF pen. Well, I mean, it's the ultimate tool for editing PDFs on your Mac, your iPhone and your iPad. With PDF pen, you can add headers and footers to your documents. You can actually edit graphics with their precision edit tool. You can use their library to store commonly used graphics, like not just commonly used graphics, but even pieces of text. I use PDF pen to sign a lot of documents, both at my Mac. And as I said on the go, so I have my signature, but not only my signature, I have like my name and my title and various company names that we have, you know, from Backbeat Media LLC and the Mac Observer, Inc. and things like that. So I can just drag them in. I don't have to type and that's the idea. You get it right. It makes it easy. You can scan an OCR documents so you can totally go paperless. And then with PDF pen pro, you can batch convert documents with OCR. You can convert entire websites into PDFs way better than the built-in functionality in Mac OS. Trust me on this. You can create your own fillable PDF forms and you can even edit table of contents. It's amazing. I like I use PDF pen all the time. I know it sounds crazy that I'd be this excited about an app that edits PDFs, but PDFs are such a huge part of our online lives that it makes sense. Right. They've replaced paper in so many ways. You need to have a tool that's really going to do this for you and help you to maximize what you're doing with PDF. So go check it out. Go to smile software.com slash podcast. That's where you can download it and get everything all set. You can find your links to the app store stuff to download everything that you need are thanks to smile and PDF pen for sponsoring this episode. Our next sponsor is linked in jobs. You know, when it's time to make a hire for your small business, trust me, I know this, you want to find, you need to find the best person for the job. In fact, the wrong person can actually crater your business, right? Because each person is a huge percentage of your business. I think about this. You really want to make sure you get the right person. Well, LinkedIn jobs has a leg up over every other job person search engine out there. And the difference is linked in jobs has people there every day that aren't actively necessarily looking for a job, but they are open to new opportunities. And oftentimes the best person to hire is someone that already has a job. You want to get somebody that's productive where they are, their employer is happy with them, right? You know, LinkedIn has that unfair competitive advantage because people are there posting, interacting, all of that stuff, and you can find them and they're open to new opportunities. They match you with quality candidates that make the most sense. LinkedIn jobs also uses both hard skills and what they call soft skills to match you with the people that fit your role best, not necessarily the people that have a job with the title of the job that they would have at your company, but the people that fit the criteria that you're looking for based on skills, background, but also like interests, activities, passions, right? So that way you get the most relevant, qualified candidates for your role. Here's a deal that we have for you.  That's right. You get $50 off your first job post at linkedin.com slash MGG terms and conditions apply or thanks to LinkedIn jobs for sponsoring this episode. It's time for a deep dive. Yeah. So it is. It's time for a deep dive into mail. That's because that's what we promised we were going to do. First, I want to start and go through all of a few of the responses that just talk about sort of different workflows and different apps that people are using or different extensions that people are using and how that all works. And then, well, you know, then we've got some other stuff to share. So first we'll go with Ron. Ron says, I use mail exclusively personally, though I have outlook at my work. I do not keep all my emails, but what I keep, I store in iCloud mailboxes. He says, I use Mail Acton to help me organize my mailboxes. And I use SaneBox to make Sane Later and Sane News. He says, I have used Mail Steward for archiving, but I found the interface arcane and I rarely accessed it. So I stopped. He says, I have iCloud mailboxes for many things, but very important numbers and serial numbers, et cetera, are emailed then to Evernote as a second backup. So the things I want to focus on here are two things that are near and dear to my heart and probably not uncommon to anyone listening. And that's Mail Acton and SaneBox. So Mail Acton is a way to invoke rules with keystrokes. That's really the best way I can. It does more than that, but that's its main function in life. So let's say you want to you have several different archive mailboxes, like Ron talks about here with his iCloud things. He can create a rule that says take the highlighted message and send it to the receipts archive and another one that says take the highlighted message and send it to my medical archive or whatever, right? Or my car archive, whatever it's going to be. And then Mail Acton lets you assign those rules to keystrokes. So you can very quickly archive your mail or do things with your mail just by invoking something with the keyboard, you know, a quick little like, you know, control M for medical and boom, it's the archives that it puts it there. You can have because it's rules. You can have it marked as red or unread or flagged or not flagged or anything like that. So so that's Mail Acton. I also use Mail Acton to to do that, but also to delay my sends. So every email I send is on a two minute delay. Let me tell you how much that saves time and not time. Obviously it adds time, but saves my bacon often because I'll hit send and it'll be like, oh, I wanted to or oh, I shouldn't have or any of those things that two minute buffer, man, so nice. Sanebox watches your email as it comes in. Really, it watches your email all the time and it filters things. So he talked about Sane later and Sane News. These are automatic mailboxes that Sanebox creates on your iMap server and it works with Gmail. It's worked this week with Gmail too. So whatever happened there didn't mess with Sanebox because they didn't change their authentication path. Sanebox automatically notices things that are like newsletters and mailing lists and stuff and will put them in Sane News. It also finds things that are maybe things you're, you know, see seed on or other not super important things and moves those to Sane later so you can go through this stuff. But the good part is if you're going through Sane later or Sane News and you say, ooh, I want one of those that message. I always want these to come to my inbox. You just move it to your inbox. It notices you did that and it retrains itself for that specific message for you. So it starts with some group heuristics, but immediately you can train it to be very personalized to you and man, Sanebox is awesome. So it's one of those couldn't live without things for me. So any thoughts on that before I share Lauren's thing here, John? Well, toss in one. Yeah, program that I use to also solve this email thing. And that's spark. It's like, huh, OK. Never really used it before. I have it on one of my machines. I never really used it that much. But once this issue. Google issue came up, I'm like, huh, let me give it a try. And that was another way I tried to solve the problem was to use a different email client, sure, because it didn't have any issue with. Logging in for whatever reason. Right, it's still what it wasn't totally smooth, though, because, you know, for example, we have aliases. You know, my login is is not the address. That I use for one of our accounts and the signatures and stuff, you know, wasn't it that those didn't come over and stuff like that. So but at least I was able to see the emails. I was able to retrieve them. Sure. But I'd. I'd say, hey, you know, look at other email clients and then that's the way a lot of other people saw the email issue was was doing that spark is the one that that I have. Installed on one of my machines. Cool. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that makes this issue may have encouraged people to explore alternate email clients.  Probably not Apple's fault.  I'll put an asterisk on that. But yeah, yeah. OK, so moving on to Lauren, who has sort of a different strategy. He says, greetings geeks. My dearly departed wife used to fastidiously work to keep her inbox empty. This seems a little bit retentive to me, says my gate swings the other way. Gmail taught me that I don't need to delete anything. I learned the benefits of Google remembers everything and searching to find what I need. He says, I now have more than half a dozen email addresses and they are all handled through Apple Mail. Keeping this wild collection in my inbox makes it very easy to find out if I ever received that email or to search for something in the past. So this is sort of the exact opposite of what Ron was just talking about with filtering and, you know, all of that stuff. He says, I have fit searching my previous orders on Amazon specifically because they have them categorized by year. I don't remember what year I ordered it. I just want to see it. The only problem I ever have is that mail can be sluggish presenting an email message after I select it. I assume at least part of the problem is the spinning hard drive in my mid 2012 MacBook Pro. Coincidentally, I have also been notified of deteriorating battery. But but there you go. So yeah, Lauren's inbox forever thing. He pointed out that he's got 178,000 messages in his inbox. And yeah, but there you go like that.  When we used you Dora back in the day, John, I had filed I had like a, you know, an archive for you, an archive for my wife, an archive for almost every person, certainly every client that I dealt with all of that stuff because I needed to be able to find those emails. And if I didn't pre sort them, the search functionality was very, very limited and wouldn't really, you know, find me what I needed and certainly not quickly. Obviously that's now changed. We've gotten much better with sorting sorting and searching. So so this one, the concept of one, I was going to say one archive, but but with Lauren, it's less than that. It's one email box. Like that's it. The email is all right there. So it's an interesting concept. Thoughts, John, hmm, yeah, it's one way to do it. It is. Yep. All right. Dan says, I'll describe my process, but I don't like it. So I'm eager to hear from other people. He says, I have three basic accounts that I managed. Two personal and one for a non-profit that he works with says, I have folders set up for various activities with an each account. My combined inbox usually contains many emails as I want quick access or as a reminder for me to do something when the inbox gets too big. I will move email from the inbox for that account to a folder called action needed iCloud or action needed Gmail. All this does is basically empty the inbox. Those those folders are still high on my priority list. I then use mail steward to archive emails for the past four years. I have a different archive for each year. I archive them to my local SSD. I then use carbon copy cloner to copy that archive to my drobo as a backup. At the end of the year, I create a new mail steward archive. I delete a lot of emails, especially in my sent folder for that year. I do this knowing that I can find them in a mail steward if I need to. I've also turned off the thread feature in mail because I found that some emails with the same subject but unrelated content would sometimes get put into a thread where it didn't belong. This caused confusion, which is why I have disabled it. I've been struggling with email management for a long time. I want the ability to find emails quickly without using up lots of gigabytes on my local SSD. So that's interesting, right? Because that's a that's a concern with email is it can take up a lot of space on your local drive. And and so using something like mail steward or perhaps some of the other methods that we're going to get into shortly here, you know, can alleviate that and off off load mail because you can't really point mail at, you know, two different places like you can say with photos or or whatever. So I kind of I like Dan's process, but I can see where it can be a little cumbersome. So maybe something else we'll talk about here will spark no pun intended, a change for Dan. So thoughts on any of that, Mr. Mr. Braun, before we share share, Mike here. Not at the moment. OK, all right. So Mike says I use Apple Mail and he says on my on my Mac, I have a few rules to set flags to email flag anything red that's related to billing or finance stuff. I use the yellow flag to highlight anything for my daughter's school or activities, and I flag orange. Anything that I need to keep track of for easy reference, usually for about a month. And then I flag gray in emails related to upcoming vacations or travel. Says I have mail up on the Mac set up with several smart mailboxes, one for each of the flagged emails. So this is an interesting thing, right? You can use smart mailboxes to find and and collate together emails that might not be in the same box, just because they have the same flag. And he says, as I pay bills, I or deal with my daughter's school or swim stuff or whatever. He says, I just unflagged the email and boom, it's gone from the smart mailbox. So this is an interesting. I've started using flags just in the last couple of months in a similar way. And this can be a handy thing. Says this works pretty well, except that mail sometimes gets confused and shows an email in the smart mailbox, even though it's no longer flagged. This can sometimes be challenging to straighten out, but mail seems to be getting better in this regard and usually fixes itself. I've seen that too. Smart mailboxes in general don't necessarily update in real time, but it's hard to hard to say what what it's doing. He says, as I received an email on my phone, I may flag it here, but here I wish that I could select which flag iOS only has flag or not flagged. You can't set colors of flags so it doesn't match. He says, it works. He says, these fall into my red group, which is a good thing, is this is the one group that gets most of my attention and I can then just re-categorize when I'm sitting on my Mac. And then once per year, he says, usually at the end of January, I'll create or update some of the smart mailboxes that filter all my unflagged email prior to January 1st of the new year. I'll export these to a new on my Mac mailbox with an encrypted sparse bundle. I'll verify that all the old received sent email was archived and then delete those to keep my active email boxes clean. So this is interesting. He exports it to a mail compatible mailbox and saves it into a sparse bundle. But then that could that sparse bundle could be saved on an external drive or, you know, if you have a network storage drive or something. So that's another way to kind of prune down your local mail library, which is interesting. So what do you think, Mr. Mr. John? Yeah, I use flags. OK, I bet I'm looking here and I actually have. So of course, an Apple mail in mailboxes, there will be one called flagged. And right now I see I have 118 things flagged for various reasons. And I use different colors and I'm sure my strategy of the colors makes sense right now. But I flag things of the reason being rather than searching, you know, far and wide. Sure. That email, it's just, you know, it's like, this is something I should pay attention to and, you know, not lose track of. Right. The interesting thing is that on iOS, I just looked at my phone here, is that flagged is not turned on by default, as far as I can tell, or at least not on my iPhone. So if you go to mail on iOS, here's a quick tip here, you're going to see your mailboxes. And, you know, I see all inboxes, Mac, e-cab, so on and so forth. But there's an edit button in the upper or an edit selection in the upper right hand corner. If you click on that, you're then going to see some additional categories that you can use. And oh, yeah, there's a lot of stuff here. But one of them is flagged. So by default on iOS, as far as I can tell, that is not enabled. So, right, if you want more options on iOS, hit that edit button when you're looking at mailboxes. Yeah, some of this looks useful. I'm glad you brought that up, man. Attachments flagged on red, two were seized. Yeah, that's a handy little thing, man. I like that. I had forgotten all about sort of customizing the way customizing the way and the order in which things appear. Because when you hit that edit button, well, there it is. OK. Yeah, when you hit that edit button, as John said, you can, you know, check or uncheck the boxes that you want. But then you also on the right side of that list, you can drag up and down to change the order in which they appear for you in mail. So if you've got stuff that you want to float to the top, well, float it to the top. That's pretty good, man. I'm thanks for bringing that up. That's great. Thomas, this is one of the I love these moments. It's like it's like we had the John F. Braun moment from John F. Braun.  You, my friend, have this knack for looking at things from a completely different perspective than than I ever would. And no, and like like with this, like I totally forgot about that thing in an iOS mail, like it happens all the time. It's great. Thomas has one of these things, I think. He says, like archive strategy, maybe is a little special, but it works for me. He says, first, I don't sort my mails anymore. I did this in the old days of Eudora. We all did says, which I used until about 2005. Now I just read them and mark them in one of my colors. If I have to do or don't forget them after a year, mostly in February, March, it seems like February, March. It's the time to archive the prior years, prior calendar years, email. I delete all irrelevant mails like newsletters and then create a new folder for each in and out box and move all the messages to this folder and close mail. Now I go to my library, my home folder, library folder, mail. Then you go into in Mojave V six and I see our V five, but you get a home library, mail V six. And then you've got to go into the folder for your mailbox and you might just have to check some of these arcanely named folders to find the the one for that particular, you know, on my Mac archive says, I then copy the newly created mailbox, which is just a folder here to another folder outside of the library. Then I open mail and I delete that mailbox. Mail is now much thinner. It does not contain the messages anymore. But if I search for a message, all I have to do is go to this archive folder and search it in the finder. And it'll show me the message. And if I want to, I just double click the message and it shows it to me in mail so I can reply or forward it to someone or something, but it's not living inside his mail archive. This is the brilliant part, right? So he's created a mail mailbox. It is totally compatible with mail, right? There's no worries about the developer, you know, going out of business or anything like that.  And who knows? And it's just in the finder, they're all individual files because years ago, Apple moved mail from being in the the all like every mailbox with as one file, it moved it into this folder with with messages as as files format because that makes spotlight work better inside mail, but it also makes spotlight work better outside mail. So these are just individual files. You can see them. They're text files and, you know, you'd be able to read them on pretty much any Mac. It's brilliant. I really like this idea. And as I've been thinking about it all week, I can't really poke any holes in the in the, you know, the what's the right word? Easy for me to say just the the the reliability of this. So I'm excited about this one. So thank you, Thomas. It's that's an interesting little little thing. What do you think about that, John? Hmm. Yeah, I don't really. Hmm. You know, I think I yeah, not really. It's it's it's all there. I mean, I got some. Folders or mailboxes that have that's my strategy. Same. I just store it all in the on mail.  I will use the archive feature. No, no, I'll take that back. I will use the archive feature, at least for like for some of our some of the stuff. Yeah. Like Meki Gavola. Sure. You know, I try I try to. I mean, how do you archive? You may ask, I think you just yeah, you just right click on it. And there's an archive choice that's at somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah, right, right. Yeah, I like it.  I'll keep usually like a year, year's worth of stuff in the primary box. And then I'll, you know, purge that just because at least in my imagination, it makes it it makes it more responsive. OK, yeah. And it might you might be right about that. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if using mail's archive function would create something identical to what Thomas is describing. Like is he I mean, what he's doing isn't isn't bad. But, you know, it takes the extra step of copy the folder, then go back and then delete the folder from mail. Like I wonder I have to I have to play with this. This is this is interesting. Speaking of archives, Robert shares that he says, I solved my mail archive problem and my desire to have a copy of all my mail stored locally in a format that is universal. OK, right. So same thing we're talking about here with your archive solution or Thomas's John, he says, by using the utility mail archiver X or mail archiver 10 at mothsoftware.com, although it does have the ability to collect all your email from multiple accounts into its own internal SQLite database, it can simply directly archive all the email to a folder structure with each email rendered in PDF format and the email attachments collected in that folder. It works like a charm and the PDFs are easily searchable and viewable with whatever your favorite tools are. Previously, says I was using email archiver Pro to do a similar thing, but I found the software to be buggy and unreliable and it hasn't been updated in a long time. I'm glad I found Mail Archiver X. It's a much better solution. I like this. This is that's fascinating to me. The whole PDF thing that because that's going to I can't imagine a world where PDFs are not going to be readable. So I like it. That's pretty good, Robert. Pretty good. Ian has has kind of a different way of doing this all together. He says I use post box as my email client and mail backup X as my mail backup program. It backs up everything to my QNAP raid in pretty much real time with attachments. Folder structure is retained. It has allowed me to keep the amount of email I retain in post box to a minimum. And for me, it's absolutely ideal. So thank you for that. That's great. Yeah, post box is another, you know, third party email client that that a lot of people seem to like.  Then I think from Eudora, I went maybe Apple Mail was a thing at that point. I can't remember. And then for a while, I was with Mail Smith, which was an email client created. I think I might have gone right from Eudora to Mail Smith. But Mail Smith was an email client created by Rich Siegel of Barebone Software. And I really liked it for a while. But again, you know, it became this thing where it was like, oh, I want different features than Rich wants, and Rich made Mail Smith essentially and primarily for himself. In fact, I think he still does. But it got to the point where where Mail Smith wasn't wasn't able to handle my my size of my archives. And although Rich fixed that, it just I needed to move. And I moved to mail. And since then, I've been really happy because I know that my mail client is going to work with the next version of Mac OS. And that's always a nice thing. Now, I do rely on a couple of plugins, specifically the, you know, small cube mail suite, which has Mail Act on it that we mentioned before. And that, as we've seen, doesn't always get updated in time for new OS releases. So that that, you know, maybe I maybe I haven't quite solved my problem. But I know I can get to my email and future versions of Mac OS. And that's, you know, important. Although this week, that wasn't entirely the case. But but yeah, there you go. Fixed. Speaking of third party email clients, Andrew suggests one from from. Mozilla, right, the people that make Firefox and that is Thunderbird. He says that he that that's what he uses. And he he likes Thunderbird. And I'll be honest, I have I have used Thunderbird. I use Thunderbird for for a couple of things that I do here. And, you know, if I have to archive like mail from an old staff member, whatever Thunderbird makes it does make it really easy to have different profiles and you can choose to store your mail wherever you want. And it's not a terrible client. It's not fantastic, but it's not terrible. So as Andrew says, he says, I'm a firm believer in Thunderbird.  But it works and it works well. Important stuff. He says, I stick in local folders and he's right. It, you know, it's it it supports all the functionality of I map and mail doesn't quite do some of those things. So so it, you know, in terms of third party email clients, I tend to trust Thunderbird because it's multi platform. And it it's made by a company that that doesn't seem to be going anywhere. So so there you go, Thunderbird. Yeah, it's fast. It's just I like his description about the interface being an unholy mess. That's that's accurate. So have you ever messed with Thunderbird, John? Yeah, I dabbled with it for a while. Yeah. But no, one thing I was I was messing around with here. So I mentioned Spark, which looks to be a basic functionality. But the one thing that I don't see in there is support. So if you're looking at another email client, one thing you may want to consider is how does it handle encryption and signing? And I don't know when I was when I was listing my when I was looking at some of the stuff in my TMO box. I think I actually saw some or MGG, I think it was the MGG box. But I saw some messages from you and it showed a what's just an attachment, probably an S mine. Yeah, so an attachment I can't and I'm trying to search for this and I can't seem to I don't think it's able to do signing or encryption could be wrong. I'll do some more research here. But yeah, we just show a you know, I forget the name of the file S mine, something sure piece. But I'll show it was an attachment and no text. So I'm like, huh, how do you? Yeah, so if you're moving to a new email client, definitely look at how they handle signing and encryption. It appears to me and I can could be wrong and let us know or I'll I'll ask. Yeah, cool.  I mean, it should be able to go into the key chain like mail and, you know, see your certificates and be aware of signing and encryption. Right. Maybe not. I don't know. Right. Right. Cool. A couple of or a tip from listener Ben, who chimed in on on some of this and talked about how he organizes mail's favorites bar. So you can it auto populates when you start mail with some your favorites bar being the thing sort of between the toolbar and your message viewer window that lists some mailboxes. And I think inbox is there and maybe sent is there. You can drag any mailbox you want to this and you can reorder the ones that are there. And if you want to take one off, just drag it off the bar and it'll poof doesn't delete the mailbox. It just deletes it from being in the favorites bar similar to Safari or anything like that and similar to Safari. So here's a tip for those two apps. If you've forgotten because like me, because I forgot, the command key combined with the numbers across the top of your keyboard map exactly to those things in the favorites bar.  And the same is true for, you know, the sixth thing on the list in the seventh. I think I think you're finished at 10 things. But but there you go. So if you want to put some favorites up there, I use favorites all the time. I have our Mac e-cab email boxes up there and all that stuff. But it's it's a great way to sort of bounce back and forth again, without having to leave the keyboard. So thank you for that that tip. And that's that's just one of those things I had completely forgotten about. So good stuff. Mr. Braun, we have some cool stuff found to go through and all of that. But but that that wraps up our our our mail segment for this for this episode. What about you? We'll get to it. We've got some questions about mail that we may get to later in the episode. I think I had a brilliant solution. OK, well, then we'll definitely get to Johnny's mail question when we get to the well, I'll put that at the top of the questions list. And and and then we've got some cool stuff found and other things that we want to get to. But if you have things about mail that you want to send to us, of course, questions, tips, anything to add to this conversation. You know how things go. We do a deep dive and then it lingers for a while and perhaps forever because it's mail. It's something I think all of us deal with at some level. So send them to us feedback at Mac e-cab dot com. I think I heard you right in that you said feedback at Mac e-cab dot com. I did. I said feedback at Mac e-cab dot com for sure. So yeah. All right. But so cool stuff found and boy, I'm really excited to talk about a couple of these things and cool stuff found. But first, John, I'm really excited to tell everybody about our next two sponsors if that's OK with you. OK. All right. I am super happy to have Eero not only as a sponsor, but I'm super happy to have Eero in our lives and in our world. You know, we've talked a lot about mesh networks here on Mac e-cab. And Eero really does sit at the very top of our recommendation list here. The single router model just doesn't work for the high bandwidth world. In addition, you know, often a single router doesn't get you the coverage that you need, right? What you need is a distributed system where you've got multiple access points not only in key places around the house, but also to serve multiple devices simultaneously. Right. And with Eero, that's what you get. Right. Enterprise grade Wi-Fi system in your home. And here's the best part in just a few minutes, right? You don't need to be an enterprise grade network manager to get enterprise grade Wi-Fi. You do it all from an app, right? The Eero app lets you manage your network from from your hand and from anywhere. Right. You can do it in your home and also manage your network remotely. This is super handy if you manage networks for, say, your parents or your friends or your clients, you can do it all from where you want. Now, Eero has Eero Plus, which is the ability to block malicious and unwanted content across your entire network and the networks of your parents and your friends and your clients. It's got advanced security in it so that you can make sure you're not visiting sites that have known threats. Right. All those malicious sites, they've got a database that they keep up to date and any time you go somewhere, they check against that database to make sure that you are not visiting somewhere that's going to cause you trouble. Right.  Right. But you get to pick ad blocking. Again, you get to pick. Right. Very, very cool stuff. So you got to check out Eero with Eero Plus because that's the way they just simply provide reliable security that defends your entire home against things like malware and spyware and phishing attacks and all that stuff. How much better can it get? Well, it can get better. Never think about Wi-Fi again and get 100 bucks off the Eero base unit and two beacons package and one year of Eero Plus. Yeah, I know. 100 bucks off the Eero base unit and two beacons package. So you've got three devices that you put throughout your home. Plus you get a year subscription towards Eero Plus, which we talked about. Visit Eero dot com slash MGG. That's E-E-R-O dot com slash MGG. That's how you get this package. 100 bucks off the Eero base unit and two beacons, one year of Eero Plus. 100 bucks off. I know it's crazy. Eero dot com slash MGG. And at checkout, you enter promo code MGG. So that's important. Eero dot com slash MGG, promo code MGG. Check out our thanks to Eero for sponsoring this episode. Our next sponsor is keeps at keeps dot com slash MGG. Look, we've talked about this before here. Losing your hair sucks, right? And two out of three guys will experience hair loss by the time they're just 35. Keeps is the easiest and most affordable way to keep the hair that you have. Keeps system uses FDA approved products that used to cost so much. But now, thanks to keeps, they're finally inexpensive and simple and easy to get for five minutes now and starting at just 10 bucks a month. You'll never have to worry about hair loss again. And here's the cool part. Getting started with keeps is easy. I said five minutes now. It really is less than five minutes. They've got a great web interface. You answer a couple of questions, snap a couple of photos of your hair. Then a licensed physician reviews all your information online and recommends the right treatment for you. So you've actually got a partner in this. Then it's shipped right to your door every three months. Keeps offers generic versions of the only two FDA approved hair loss products out there. Some of you have probably tried them before, but you've never gotten them for this price keeps is only 10 to 35 bucks a month. Plus now you get your first month for free. That's one heck of a deal for getting to keep your hair. Get it keeps. OK. To receive your first month of treatment for free, you got to go to our special URL keeps.com slash MGG. That's K E E P S dot com slash MGG for a free month of treatment. Again, keeps dot com slash MGG keeps hair today. Hair tomorrow. Our thanks to keeps for sponsoring this episode. All right, John, you know, I like AirPods. I've talked about that. But I also like earphones, you know, that seal and all that stuff. But I really like the true wireless kind of thing where you just put something in your ears and and you're good to go. So I constantly test these things and occasionally one rises, you know, above the quality level and and for some reason rises to to the show. The Airmoo B three A E R M O O B three matches this hits the mark for me. They feel good in your ears. They sound really good. They've got a cool little case that charges them, of course.  It doesn't it's similar to AirPods in that sense. I mean, it's slightly different form factor and stuff fits in your pocket really nicely. Like I said, it sounds good. You can use the there's the like the ear earpieces themselves have kind of a button integrated into them so you can change the volume. Yes, you can skip tracks, all of that stuff. They're waterproof IPX seven and Bluetooth five, right? All of that good stuff. Here's my favorite part. As of this moment, at least in time, they are available on Amazon for twenty nine dollars and ninety nine cents. You got it. Yep. Twenty nine ninety nine. I know it's frigging amazing. That I was shocked when I tested them and it's like I couldn't find anything that I didn't like about them. It's crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy. Sounds like they could probably charge a little more. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And that's a I mean, what would have AirPods retail for these days? One sixty nine. Oh, yeah. OK. Yeah. So twenty nine ninety nine. That's pretty good. Yep. I think one sixty nine is that's got to be right. I'm just pulling that off like it's that's what's in my head. It's either one sixty nine or one seventy nine, but it's it's in there. Hang on. I can I can find AirPods. Let's go. Apple Apple's going to help me on this. I don't want to be I don't want to be wrong about this. Click buy one fifty nine. All right. So there you go. So one fifty nine. So so the the Airmoo B threes are only one hundred thirty dollars cheaper than the AirPods. So there you go. Yeah, crazy. Really cool. So I I recommend these. My wife quickly stole them from me and is using them happily. So it's fine. I have other things that I can use, but these these fit her ears and they come with with like a couple of different tips and stuff. They do seal in the ear and all that stuff. But she has she always seems to have difficulty finding like things that will fit comfortably for her. So when she found it was like, OK, I take these, it's fine. So yeah, well, while it's CES, John, I think you noticed the new bag that I had for both CES and for South by Southwest. It's for years. I had been using the freebie gimme bags that CES gave us. But a couple of years ago, they started turning those into clear bags. And I'm not really into the clear bag thing. Most of the time. So I started using a backpack from a company called Solo New York at solo hyphen and why dot com. I'm using one called the Unbound backpack. And it's actually pretty cool. The your it's got a laptop compartment. It's got it's just the right size. It's not bulky and too big and it actually can expand quite a bit. But, you know, when it's sort of cinched up and all that, it's got plenty of room in there, but it's not this big unwieldy thing. It's really kind of comfortable and nice and and it has the the the this feature where you put your laptop in the sort of the back most pocket. If you're thinking of it that way, you can unzip that entire pocket on three sides so it can fold open and you don't have to take your laptop out if you're going through normal, you know, TSA screening. If you're going through precheck, you don't have to take it out anyway. But if you're going through normal TSA, you just sort of unfold the whole thing open and they're able to scan your backpack because it doesn't have anything else other than padding around your laptop. So pretty cool thing. It's it's showing is sold out on on their website at the moment. I'll put a link to it, but but maybe maybe Amazon or somebody has has some of them still in stock. No, they don't. But I'll put a link to it. It's it's definitely worth checking out. So throw that one out there. Anything to add to either of these two things, the air movie threes or the solo on Bound, John, speaking of Amazon, have you ever used Amazon locker? I have not. I've I'm aware of it. But for those people that aren't explain. I just used it the other day. So I was ordering a gift for for a family member and. It's basically a secure delivery option. If you want to for things of a certain size. And they have one at Whole Foods, because, you know, Amazon bought Whole Foods. Right. So they actually have one a few minutes away from me. And I decided down, let me check it out. And it's it's pretty neat. So rather than shipping to your home, you can say, well, ship to the Amazon to my nearest Amazon locker. And then what happens is once you once it's put in the box, you get an email and it says, all right. You know, either here's your code, or they actually email you a barcode so it can scan the barcode or you can type it in manually. And it was funny because actually when I was there, there was a guy ahead of me and he actually punched it in manly, like like a caveman. Whereas I did the barcode, but it scans the barcode and then a door pops open and it's like, well, here, take your stuff. It's a and it uses it was interesting. It uses I think this one was actually delivered by UPS. OK. I think yes. Yep. But it's just kind of a neat option. It's cool.  But it's a but it's an interesting option. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've thought about using it like for if I'm traveling somewhere because it's it's actually seems to be more and more frequent that I'll have something shipped to my hotel from Amazon. Usually consumables of some sort.  I don't have to put them in my suitcase or whatever. And and so I've thought about using Amazon Locker to do that. So yeah, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. All right. Ben has a question. All right. Ben has. I says a client of mine has several hundred MP4 videos captured by an old Android phone. They are in an arcane format with an AVCHD container that quick time player and photos can't natively read or import, but they are just H264 videos. So the video content should be fine. He says it's just a container. I needed a way to convert them from where they are to a much more standard MP4 format container, I should say. Among the multitude of video converter converter apps, I found any MP4 is Mac video converter ultimate. I was able to select any or all of the videos, indicate a destination and easily convert them into readable containers. He says I paid 33 bucks for a one year license and only ran into one glitch. If you select the destination folder as the same folder as the source, the app offers to replace the original video with the converted one for me says it failed to complete these conversions and left me with two second clips instead. So point it somewhere else. But thanks, Ben. I'm glad that's great. I'm glad that worked pretty cool. Graham, do you have anything to add to that jump before I bring us to Graham CSF? All right. Graham says, where's Graham here says for quite a few years I have used ECAM networks phone view application for archiving my messages and voicemails back to that conversation from iPhone to Mac says note that it is especially a continually growing archive, not a backup of a single point in time, but it doesn't remove any data from the phone. So we'll put a link to phone view. He says the primary purpose for me was to have an archive of my voice messages stored in the visual voicemail which disappear when you change SIM cards. It made their $30 lifetime purchase price very, very, very much worthwhile as you would hope when it displays the archive it matches the numbers to contact names. Of course it does, which are not innately stored within the archive itself, but it cross references them for you. So that's pretty cool. I hadn't thought about that, but which is why we do the show because we all get to learn. So thanks, Graham. Yeah, I've used phone view for other things, but never thought about it from that standpoint. So that's pretty good. Thoughts on that before we go to our last cool stuff found here, John? Continue. Okay. Lawyer Jeff posted colorize.sg. It spelled the what I would call the British way, C-O-L-O-U-R-I-S-E.sg. And it does something that some of you may love and some of you may hate probably simultaneously depending on where you're applying it. It takes black and white photos and colorizes them. And it actually does a pretty good job of not making them look like, you know, pastels or something or, you know, fluorescent colors sometimes. Like it's a, they look pretty tasteful, at least in the, in the, you know, the things I've tried. So it's at colorize.sg. Yeah, colorize.sg. And you can just upload a photo and it does it right there on the website. It's a pretty cool stuff. Thanks, Jeff. Good stuff. Fun, fun. Yeah, it's good it doesn't. I've noticed you probably know about HDR. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people get a bit carried away when they do HDR on some images and that you look at it and it's just like, that's not real. Right. Right. Right. So it's good that they take that into account because yeah, I'm with you is that sometimes colorizing can, some people consider colorizing a photo crop. Yeah. Well, I mean, sure. Yeah. But that's, that's the thing, right? It's, I mean, it's art. So, you know, you do you and if you like it, then there you go. You're good to go. One note about from the chat room at macgeekup.com slash stream, Brian Monroe there noted when we were talking about the air movie threes that he has both the version one and version two of the air pods. So I wanted to share with you experientially what what he's finding with those. He says the best two things are the faster connection times and wireless charging. He says, now I just wish I had that the Apple TV remote had she charging because that would actually be a handy thing. That's that's a good point. That would be a nice another nice place to have wireless charging is in a in a remote like that. That way you're not having to think about plug it in. We mostly use our Logitech Harmony one remote that has a charging base. So it, you know, it sits there. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. My remotes are all on rechargeable batteries. Everything's on rechargeable batteries. The question is what's it take to recharge it? Right. Our Harmony one remote probably would need to be recharged once maybe twice a week. Given the way that it works because it works over Wi-Fi. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wi-Fi remotes with the Apple TV remote also is in that category are going to use a lot more power. It's of course a lot more functional. Right. But you don't have to worry about aiming at the TV and in all of that crazy stuff. So yeah. No, the Harmony one is fantastic. We're very, very happy with that remote. We've had, we've had that. God, I mean, we probably had that 10 years now. I mean, it's, which is crazy to have a remote for us to have a remote that long. Yeah. Yeah. I think my TV remote uses RF. I think it's an option with the latest. I think it uses Bluetooth. Is specifically with the TV remote. Yes. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. I think I had to actually enable it. Right. Right. Yeah. RF is, you know, better than IR, I would say. Yeah. You don't have to aim it. Yeah. Yep. Cool. Yes. Yes. Yes. Cool. All right. All right, John. Take us to, take us to Johnny or I'll take us to Johnny and you can, you can, you can deliver the answer. Johnny says, let's say I recently had an issue where there may be no answer, but I thought I would ask. Anyway, I was reading email in the car while my wife was driving while reading an important email. I accidentally tapped the trash icon at the bottom. It's annoying that it's in the middle where I tend to hold my thumb. He says, but I tapped it when the car went over a bump. No problem. I thought I can just go to the trash folder and move the message back to the inbox. Okay. Unfortunately says when I opened the message, the car went over another bump and I hit the trash icon again. It seems that this permanently deletes the email from the phone. At least I was not able to find a way to restore it. I also discovered that I had forgotten that I could shake the phone to untrash the email rather than go to the trash and move the message. But hopefully I will remember that the next time and not delete an important email. So my thoughts on this were. Well, twofold. Number one, if it's an IMAP email, you might be able to log into your email provider's site and find it there, maybe, but no guarantees it's possible that hitting the delete from the trash folder truly expunged it. The other thing is you can change the functionality of that button in mail. If you go into your iOS settings, go to it's weird now where they buried all this stuff. So going to the settings app on your iPhone, go to passwords and accounts, which is like a page and a half down and you'll see your email account there. You have to do this and you can control it individually for each email account, which I suppose is handy, but go to tap on the accounts there, tap on the account name, which you have to do twice. Then you get to the screen with your like your password and server names or whatever hit advanced. And on the advanced screen, you have an option move discarded messages into and you can choose between the deleted mailbox and the archive mailbox. I set mine to archive because I archive far more frequently than I delete. If I want to delete, of course, I can swipe the message to the left and get that there or I hold on the archive button and it shows me two options, archive or trash, so I can get to trash, but I wouldn't do it accidentally. So those were my thoughts on this, John, but I am now going to sit back and get some popcorn and learn from the master. Well, I had one thought. Yeah. Well, I had two thoughts, but the second thought didn't pan out here. My first thought, if you have a time machine backup, you may not know this, but time machine will let you go back in time and retrieve emails from the past. So if you have a recent time machine backup, you may be able to, that includes that email, you may be able to retrieve it. Right. So if he also has a Mac and that Mac happened to get that email, yeah, that's true. Yeah. His Mac would have had to be on at home or unless it was an email that came in much earlier or whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that idea. That's right. Right. It's not just the email server that might have a copy. Your Macs, all of your Macs might have a copy of this. Yeah. That's a really nice feature that I think a lot of people don't know about time machine is that if you activate it while you're running mail, it's going to give you a time machine view into your mail world. Right. Right. Which, hey, speaking of email workflows, that's something you may want to keep in mind. Yeah, man. It's not gone forever as long as you maintain your time machine backups. The other thing I was thinking is, huh, I wonder, I was thinking that it may also be stored in a iOS backup, but I don't see mail as a category in iMazing. I was going to say, maybe you can use iMazing to go to old backup. Sure. It's stored in there, but I don't see mail as an option here. Huh. Right, right, right. I want to see a files category. I'm wondering if the thing, I don't, do you know? I mean, I don't know if an iOS backup contains your email. It looks like it may not. Oh, that's a good question. It might. It has to be. I think it does. I can see emails. I think it has some and it'll download more if it needs it, but I think some of it is stored locally, but I just don't, I mean, I see the files category. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to think about that a bit more. I'm wondering if an iOS backup may also contain that last email. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You might be right about that. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's far more difficult to get granular with restoring things. I would think if anything could do it, of course, iMazing would because that's, you know, the granular backup and restore utility for iOS, but I've never tried to do it with mail. So yeah, good thinking, man. I like that. That's good. That's good. It's good. As usual, we have lots of other things to go through. I want to, I think we have time for this one. Listener Craig had had an interesting question, but it it's one of these things that it's about Thunderbolt and I think perhaps we can, we can use this to just make sure we're all always thinking about Thunderbolt for what it actually is. And Craig, right. So thank you, Craig, for for setting this up for us and in a great way. Since I have an original 27 inch retina iMac equipped with Thunderbolt 2 ports, I want to connect a single SSD drive for backup and file storage. Encountering a huge challenge, though, in figuring out how best to make the connection and get maximum throughput from the SSD.  He says, but some Macs might have USB-2 only, right. Like the one that I'm sitting in front of here has USB-2 speeds. This is more expensive solutions like an OWC dock involved, you know, large docks and are like $150 and up. What's the answer? So as I said in setting this up, this is one of those things where Thunderbolt can save the day because it offers near limitless expandability of your Mac. Thunderbolt isn't just a transfer bus like USB is. It is an expansion bus like PCI slots in a desktop computer, an old desktop computer. IMAX the desktop computer doesn't have slots, but it is like slots, right. That's the way we need to think about Thunderbolt. And, you know, for a Mac that say doesn't have USB-2 like this one here, but I want to connect to USB or it doesn't have USB-3, it has USB-2, but I want to connect to USB-3 drive. The good news is I can because I can use Thunderbolt to add, expand a USB-3 interface to it and that interface could be a dock like you mentioned or something like that connects USB-3 and Ethernet box that I have, but even that's like 100 bucks, you know, those things. You are adding a USB chip. It's not just an adapter to go from the shape of a Thunderbolt connector to the shape of a USB connector. You need something in there that speaks USB-3 because your Mac doesn't. But via Thunderbolt you can plug directly into the motherboard. That's the way to think about Thunderbolt. And then you're plugging a USB-3 interface in that scenario. And actually I think for Craig here you need to think about specifically for adding an SSD you need to think about where the speed limits are going to be. So look at the SSDs that you're buying look at what their maximum speeds are and then go that way. There are very, very few single drive enclosures with Thunderbolt on them. There's a lot of multi-drive enclosures with Thunderbolt because you can take advantage of the speeds of Thunderbolt there, but any drive enclosure, single or multi, isn't just going to be a Thunderbolt drive even if it has a Thunderbolt port on it it's going to be a SATA drive or something of the sort, maybe a NVMI NVMI? Is that the right words? Whatever the other kind of interfaces. But it's going to be a Thunderbolt 2 SATA or Thunderbolt 2 NVME adapter or an interface in there that then plugs into the drive. So just think about that and it's probably more cost-effective to get something like a dock that can go say USB-3 or you already have USB-3 on your Max, so maybe you don't even need a dock because I don't know that your SSD is going to go faster than your USB-3 speeds if that makes sense. Thoughts on that, John? I'm just looking here and it looks like yeah, I think I've never really explored Thunderbolt, but it looks like OWC does have some enclosures, including one that I think is just a single drive. Yeah. You can do it. It's just going to be expensive. But with like a multi-drive enclosure the nice part is, you know, you might have four SATA interfaces in there. All four of them are connected to your Mac over the Thunderbolt bus. And the cool part is your Mac actually sees all four of those interfaces and sees the drive separately. So you can use software RAID to put them all together, right? And that's a cool thing. So, yeah. Thunderbolt is just an expansion bus. That's the best way to think of it, especially in these terms. But is there anything special about these OWC enclosures that have Thunderbolt for single drives? I'll have to explore some more here. Yeah. I'm just curious like what the benefit of that would be I'm looking to see depending on the version of Thunderbolt, I mean the speed of some older technologies. Okay. Good. Yeah. I'm looking on, we'll have to look later because I'm looking on OWC and I'm only seeing Thunderbolt on like their Thunderbay, right?  But I'm not seeing anything there with a single drive with Thunderbolt, but I'm obviously not looking in the same place. Cool. All right. Well, again, it's just I kind of wanted to go through that just so that we are always thinking about Thunderbolt as the thing that it really is. It really is the thing that as best it can, future proofs are existing Macs, right?  I'm sure it existed, but it wasn't something Apple was doing. Future proof. Boom. I can do it. And when the Ethernet port in this died before I had the motherboard replaced, I was able to use Gigabit Ethernet via Thunderbolt, right? Or I could have two Gigabit Ethernet connections if I wanted and, you know, so I guess I don't know that I need that, but there you go. You might. You never know. You might have two different networks you get to connect to. So there you go. That's but that's what we got for today, my friend. My friends. Right, Mr. Braun. With the show that never ends. Welcome back. That's right. Yeah. We will. It's so far. That's true. So far. That's true. Cool. Cool. All right. Well we made it through the entire show without any April Fool's jokes and I'm happy about that. I don't I don't like misleading our listeners. So that's good. And hopefully we did not mislead our listeners. So yeah. Let's see. I want to thank all of you for listening, of course. Thank everyone who's a premium subscriber. I have a bunch of you to thank individually that we will do next episode. Just had a lot of things going here today and I like to make sure we have the time for you. But if you are a premium listener, don't forget you have access to that premium at MacGeekEv.com email address. Everybody has access to the phone number, which is 224-888 geek. And of course, John geek is 4335. That's right. iTunes reviews. We really, really want them. MacGeekEv.com slash iTunes will get you as close as we can get you. I would love to have you either post a new review or if you've posted one in the past, you can update your review. And I think that actually helps us too. So please go do that. Even if it was already five stars, you can change some of the text or add something to it. And it'll you know, it'll boost it up for us and for you. And as John pointed out last week, that's a good thing. I want to thank Cashfly at CACHEFLY.com for providing all the bandwidth to get the show from us to you. And I want to thank of course all of our sponsors for supporting us. I also would like to thank for all of your support. And I appreciate it. All right. I'll try to get that out to you. So thank you for the support. Thanks, everybody. Thank you so much for the support. And I wanted to say that I wanted all of our sponsors to enjoy the show. We have an incredible good advice to get yourself out of any mess, then you want to do first is make sure you don't get caught.


We're back live, it's the one o'clock show here on Tuesday, the fifth already of January. We have Elizabeth Satoris, and she is an evolutionary biologist and a futurist, which is, you know, I stand in awe of that combination of things. And she is here because she won a show in our Christmas party. We raffled off, may I say, we selected at random three shows, three people who could do shows, and this is, and she won. So congratulations on winning, Elizabeth. Thank you so much. We'll do this again, and it won't have to be a raffle either. So, you know, we've talked about many things, you and me, over the years. But this is an interesting topic. This is how it is very relevant right now. How viruses like the COVID, you know, affect evolution. And you're into that. And you can speak to that, and you can take the 50,000 foot level and try to help us understand where this little speck of time fits in the long-term continuum of the evolution of the planet, of the microbes, and of humanity. So give me your opening thoughts on it, and we'll go from there. Okay. Well, as I like to say, being an evolution biologist is a deep pastist. We're looking into the deep past of Earth, the history of Earth, basically, the history of life, in order to see where can we go from here, you know, where we come from, and why are we in the situation we're in now. And the most important thing to me, of course, about this COVID crisis is that we're talking about the microbial world. Now, 30 years ago, we considered all bacteria, evil germs, right? And it took us 30 years of fighting with antibiotics, which are literally in Greek anti-life agents, in order to wipe them all out. And then we got into trouble, because we found we were selecting for the worst ones, and the cleanest, most sanitized places in the world were the hospitals.  So now we're in the same situation with viruses. We haven't got yet what the relationship between bacteria, viruses, and us is. Now, in evolution, no creature larger than a bacterium. There are only two kinds of cells on the planet, the bacterial cells, and the cooperatives they built, which are nucleated cells, which we're made of. Now, there's never been any creature larger than a bacterium or a bacterium, for that matter, that has not evolved with its contingent of bacteria and microbes. We cannot live without them. And it took us 30 years to figure out that our bacteria run our immune system because they're plastered all over our guts, and they repair the gut linings, and they run the immune system, and they make vitamins, and they do all these wonderful things for us. Only a tiny, tiny part of them get into trouble. Now, it's exactly the same story with viruses, and we don't get it yet. So we're now committing the same genocidal war on the microbial, on the viral world, along with the bacteria. Of course, they and the funguses all get wiped out in this war. And so I think we're only making matters worse, that if we don't learn how to get along with this kind of occasional nasty flu virus, then we're in trouble, because we can't, we're going to keep getting one pandemic after another if we don't change this relationship. So if I offered you a carte blanca on how to deal with this virus, or some of the other pernicious viruses we've seen over the past 20 years or so, how would you change our approach? Well, I would ask something that every health personnel person in the world knows now, and that is, how do you get a strong immune system? They all know that a strong immune system is the best defense against this kind of pandemic. Okay, how do you get a strong immune system? Everybody knows now. It's about healthy food. It depends on what you're feeding your bacteria. And you notice that the most vulnerable people in the world are the old people who are taking 25 drugs for other chronic diseases and stuffed into windowless hospitals and places like that. That is not going to help grandma avoid COVID. So what's healthy food? What's healthy food? Good question. See, what we have going now is kind of weird, because you have the same big multinational company, I'll make you guess which one it is, which is using a chemical patented as an antibiotic, one of those anti-life agents, to spray on all your grains and veggies, all the food fields, and then stuffing the rest of the antibiotics down the throats of the, or injecting them into the four-feet lot animals. So almost everything in your supermarket has been toxically poisoned by these very expensive pharmaceutical drugs, actually. And then the same company comes back and sells you pharmaceutical drugs to make you well when they've made you sick. Now, I'm sorry, I'm speaking very plainly here. And if you look into Bayer's history, you'll see that they've been doing very nasty stuff for a very long time. So I get things like that from an evolutionary perspective. Healthy food is the answer, and nobody is promoting it in the whole health field. You don't hear them talking about it. Well, there's a lot of people who promote pure food, you know, organic food, but the health without pesticides feel very passionate about that. And so it sounds like to me, something we've heard before, something only a very small fraction of people in this country maybe other countries are different. But in this country, abide by that. And yes, we live on hamburgers. And the Trump diet, the worst foods, the fast foods, and all that, which are never going to be all that healthy because they have to be made in bulk and mass. They have to be served quickly. They have to get along without a lot of refrigeration and so forth. So I mean, I think that that should be clear to everyone that if you eat better, you'll have a better immune system and you'll be able to resist this. But there are comorbidities that will come as people get older anyway, even if you're really careful on what you eat. Isn't that true? Yes, of course. There I have a dear friend who just passed away and was not quite 80 who lived the most healthy life you can imagine. Food-wise, hours of yoga every day, deep meditation, everything you can think of that we tell people to do. And she's gone and I'm not, and I'm five years older than she is. So what is genetic? Well, it's genetic, it's life. She was told that she compromised her body by sleeping on irradiated ground in Afghanistan, go figure. So, you know, we have, I used to say humanity has thought up more suicide weapons than I could adjust that when I was kids. But COVID is not the only problem on our horizon in terms of health. You know, I'm passionate about 5G, which oddly causes the same hypoxia kinds of symptoms as the COVID virus. What's hypoxia? Hypoxia is when not that you're not getting enough air into your lungs, but that your red blood cells would pick up the oxygen from the lungs, can't deliver it to the cells. So you're starved of oxygen, but not because you're not getting taken in the air, it's because of what happens to the red blood cells. Are you saying that 5G has an effect on red blood cells? Yes, absolutely. Where do you get that from? Well, there are thousands of studies on up through 4G. They're refusing to do studies on 5G, although some people are managing to go through the data and see what the changes are and what the effects of these microwaves, we're being microwaved now, are. So the medical evidence is quite good. And I don't want to get into too many controversial issues, but the important thing really to recognize is that we need strong immune systems and that the COVID authorities are not even mentioning that. You've heard and we've read about these people, especially the diplomatic service who are in embassy properties around the world, especially around Russia, where they get sick for no apparent reason. And it happened in Cuba a few years ago. It has happened for a while in living quarters and working quarters of American diplomats in Moscow. And nobody knows exactly what, but the coincidence is too great to ignore. And it sounds like that's a microwave kind of weapon that the Russians have developed, which makes you sick. Have you heard about that? Do you believe there's any truth to that? I do know that the kind of microwaves used in 5G were originally developed for crowd control for deactivating people. Is that right? Wow, interesting. Now, suffice to say, as you say, there are weapons that we don't know yet are weapons. Technology, there's always a secondary or side effect that could be weaponized. And we've seen that in so many examples. I want to throw a theory at you, Elizabeth. An evolutionary theory, if you want. So nature is quite remarkable, I'm sure you'll agree. It's remarkable in the microbial sense. It's remarkable certainly in the human sense because we came from the sea and we are actually turned inside out with all these microbes through our intestinal tract. And it's an essential part of us to have, I don't want to say parasites, but cooperative organisms in our bodies that would help us. In fact, that we are dependent on them. At the same time, there's a great harmony in the world which didn't come easy. It came through millions of years of evolution. I'm sure you've thought about that. And sometimes nature feels you have to call the herd. You have to call the herd. And so maybe these viruses pop up and their larger meaning in the evolution of the species and the planet is to call the herd. And maybe it's, I mean, all animals have this experience, all herds, all herds have this experience. They get called by one mechanism or another. Are we being called by nature now? Well, you know, I'm leery of the concept of like Gaia's revenge. You hear that kind of thing. You know, she does get in even with humans for being so bad. And in a way, what you're saying can turn into that. And I prefer to see it as a natural rebalancing act. It has nothing to do with vengeance. One of the things I love about knowing indigenous cultures is that they don't see themselves as superior to nature. And they don't rank anything in nature as being better or lower or higher on the evolutionary scale. You know, like we're the most intelligent ones kind of things. They don't do that. And so if you watch what happens, if a predator species eats up too much of its prey, of course, the more it eats of its prey, the more there will be of the predator because they'll be reproducing more, there'll be more of them. Okay, what happens?  And then what happens is that your species starts starving off, lowering its frequency or its population. So there's a natural rebalancing of population control that goes on in nature like that. And now the trouble with humans are destroying so many ecosystems that we're constantly upsetting the balance.   Now you're not adapted to their viruses, so you end up getting sick. And we've seen that, that we can get these viruses from whether it's monkeys or bats or whatever. If we weren't destroying their ecosystems, if we were living in respectful harmony with these other creatures, we wouldn't be getting infected. We wouldn't be life-voked, for the guy said, the strongest survivors of our genocide. Yeah, no, that's exactly pertinent. To this movie I told you about, the movie we are making which shows the dependency and interaction of climate change and viruses like COVID. And it seems to me that climate change, at least you can see this happening daily in Africa, climate change affects the ability of human beings or animals to live in a certain place. And so they move, they have to move to survive. It's a survival thing. And when they move, maybe they carry some antigens with them or they become subject to the antigens. And presto, you have bats and all kinds of animals that carry something that is an antigen or people get into vulnerable situations. And so the evolution of the planet is causing the evolution of human health and viruses simply by requiring people to migrate to other environments. Have you thought about that? Yes, absolutely. I mean, we brought this climate change on through our own predations. We've loaded the atmosphere with too much greenhouse gas and all those things. So the way we've behaved so rapaciously, I mean, if you look at the effects of humanity on the climate and you just trace the population curve of humans along with, say, the curve of oil exploitation. And that's where all of these toxic food chemicals come out of the whole oil age, right? The pharmaceuticals come out of the oil age. Rockefellers a hundred years ago, you know, bribing and coercing all the medical schools across the U.S. to move to simply drug-based medicine because they were selling all these pharmaceuticals. And so they did away with, yeah, I lived in Washington, D.C., on Massachusetts Avenue for during the two Clinton inaugurations. And outside my building, four blocks from the White House, there was a beautiful statue, still is, I believe, of Hanuman, the founder of homeopathy in our nation's capital. And I'm saying, what is a homeopathy founder doing in Washington? So I did the homework. And I found out that the medical school used to teach homeopathy, along with osteopathy and other natural medicines and things like that. And then that got taken away. But the statue didn't get taken away. And I'm very happy that it's still there because you can point to that. The way we evolve ourselves is not natural. Anyway, if you look at all these exponential curves, the population of the world has more than tripled, almost quadrupled in my lifetime. And it took a long time to get to as many people as there were when I was born. And now suddenly we're leaping up. And that's why what we mean by the word unsustainability is very clearly shown by exponential curves. You cannot shoot sky high. You cannot continue this level. If this level of population growth happens, it's crazy. Well, of course we'll be died off because there won't be any room for food no matter what we do. So it's really what you're talking about is birth control because the planet cannot support 7 billion, 8 billion, 9 billion people. Something will go wrong. Something will collapse. Maybe that migrant phenomenon I talked about, or maybe other things. And with all respect to homeopathy, the fact is that modern technology is intended to keep as many people alive as we can keep to feed them, to give the medicines to survive, and so forth. And it wants to, and clearly the mission is to service them, to provide food and living conditions, and so forth. And to have as many as possible. And then you get into this really strange debate in this country about birth control. People don't want birth control. Catholic Church doesn't want birth control. And so you have the population grows and grows and grows into a planet which cannot support it. So if you're talking about making a sustainable planet, you really have to have the old, and this is a discussion that was had in my childhood, in the 50s and the 60s, you really have to have global birth control. However you do that, you cannot let people, you should not encourage them to have a lot of kids. And you should certainly discourage them from having a lot of kids. And so forth. And we're not doing that at all. And the population is therefore growing into a planet that can't support them. Is that where you are? Well, we've known for a long time that the best birth control there is is education for girls. And it's been proven over and over that in those populations in Africa, wherever it has been tried, that every year of education for a girl is usually one baby less. So if you give her 12 years of education, she never does this baby. That's very good. Again, we don't want to hear about stuff like that. It violates our social norms, our ranking, our caste system, which is really, really coming to light now. And yes, it will be quite frankly, I've been tracking climate change for over half a century. And I see no way out of a desperate situation at this point. I, when teaching my MBA course at Shamanad, the last time I taught it, I had the students design a board game about sea level rise here in Honolulu. Because we know what one meter level rise will do. We know what a six level meter, six meter level will do. And you can find the maps online of the whole globe. You can home in on any part of it and raise it sea level to see exactly what's going to happen. This is going to happen for the simple reason that we have no way to stop it. We have set this thing in motion and we cannot stop it. And if we were getting real about it, we would focus all of our attention and energy right here in Hawaii on growing sustainable food, making ourselves free of imports if necessary. We know that there was as big a population on these islands when Captain Cook got here as there is today. And it was sustainable. It was feeding itself. Well, it was sustainable until the plague got here. Well, who brought the plague? Of course. If they hadn't let anybody come ashore, there would be millions of Native Hawaiians here today. Let me go to one thing. The point there just is that it is possible to make these islands self-sufficient in food. And I will not disagree. I believe that if we really attended to this, this is almost like a biblical test. It's a test of the species. We know intellectually that we can do better. We know intellectually that we can get away from the toxins, get away from the pathogens. We can have better immune systems. We can do better against climate change. But we don't seem to really do anything about it. I mean, we're talking here today, how much of this is going to be converted into action? Is the state legislature going to do something? Even at an immediate level, no, I don't think so. What about a long-term level? I doubt it. We go through different iterations of the same talk fest, but we never actually do it. And so what concerns me and what I want to ask you about is, where is this all going? I would agree with you that we really haven't done much about climate change, except exacerbated. We've done a lot to exacerbate it. But to ameliorate it, no.  And so it just gets worse and worse and worse. And as the population grows, that makes it worse too. So query, this is a hard one. This is the ghost of Christmas future. What is going to happen? What is going to happen assuming that this failure of response continues, which I believe it will? Not to you and me. Well, we won't be around, but give it a few generations off in the future. What is going to happen in the evolution of climate change and humanity? Well, I can't spill a single scenario out very clearly because we don't know, for example, we could have so bad methane leaks in the Arctic, in Siberia, where it's already bubbling up and stuff like that. And you have bigger and bigger methane holes, but they're in the oceans in the ice. That could snuff everybody. But let's say it isn't going to be that dramatic and let's focus just on the concept of the sea level rise. I can guarantee you that it will not rise a centimeter at a time, nice, slow, nice, slow linear curve, not even an exponential curve that's slow for another couple of centuries and then bumps us. It's going to happen a meter or two or five at a time, jumps, sudden jumps, big tsunami, and then when it goes away, it doesn't all go away. It leaves you with a meter higher sea level rise. Okay, what does that mean for us here? It means that our airport period and our peers could get wiped out overnight. In other words, we could have that big a climate emergency that we had a three meter sea level rise because a huge slide came off Greenland, which now has very little skirt ice holding up the ice that's on its rocks. And we know that the ice on its rocks is already lubricated by water that's gone down these big holes in the ice. It's all been monitored and shown. And so once that ice starts breaking up, it'll be like a domino thing. They'll come charging down. So sooner or later, we're going to have that kind of leap. Meanwhile, in the building right behind me, there's a building that's being built now. It's already more than twice as high as my building. And I watched it being built. I watched the foundation being laid. It took them over six months to tamp down the water table, which is less than the height of a man below the surface here in Ala Moana. That's on the King Street side of Capulani. Okay. This is the same situation as a lot of the Kakaako building as the Waikiki buildings. They all have their feet in the water. They all run sump pumps 24-7, right? This is not good because when that sea level comes up really hard, forget the pumps, the base, the whole foundations will be washing out. They are built on coral reef with landfill on top of it, right along this fragile coast. And when I called Washington, which has a department of fragile coastline, I said, I know that the new buildings being put up on our fragile coastland have some kind of a waiver that somehow they got ecological passage. But do you consider the number of buildings being built in small areas and what the combined weight of those buildings will do? It is not hard to calculate the weight of a new building, empty or occupied. It takes a little bit of math to do it, but we do it all by computer. She said, oh, man, I never heard of that. Yeah, it hasn't even crossed their minds. Do you think in terms of the individual? It goes for the proposition that we're doing too little too late, and this is going to catch. It is exceeding our ability, exceeding our action, and certain things are going to happen. I'll just list some of them. And it's not just sea level rise. It's this extreme weather. Fire, floods, drought, floods. I mean, it's biblical. And what are we doing about that? Well, not much, but these things taken either at Syriotum or in a parallel way, which it probably is going to be parallel, all happening at the same time, are going, first of all, they're going to change the place we live. We're going to have to move. We're going to have to migrate even here in this country. Our economy is going to be in the tank. We are not going to have the money to do the things we could do now, okay, because by the time we get to a point where we realize how serious this is, we won't have the money to deal with it. And finally, going back to the point of virus, if we all have to migrate and we all have to congest in a place that isn't built for us to put pressure on the environment, so to speak, we're going to wind up with new pathogens, new diseases that we can't handle. And our health system is a function of our economy. So we're not going to be able to handle it. And at the end of the day, and here's my point, and this is my last question to you, at the end of the day, you can't sustain 7 billion or 8 billion people in a world which is deteriorating, maybe not right away, but in 10 or 20 years or something, not too far off. You can't sustain them. So if you can't sustain them, what happens?   The population of the world dies. And my question to you as an evolutionary biologist is, well, this is an awful way to frame it, but well, maybe that's the way Mother Nature tells us that we better be better. We better deal with sustainability because the price is that billions of people cannot exist. They'll have to go away. So it's Mother Nature controlling the population of the earth, isn't it? Well, again, I don't like that image of Mother Nature doing it when we're doing it to ourselves. I'm 100% of the responsibility on our human shoulders. And there are ways out of this. You're so right about the pathogens, because remember that even a little bit of sea level rise is going to, the first thing it will do is back up the sewage in these cities, right? We've seen sewage floating in our streets already a couple of years ago. We don't want to talk about it. I think it's happening in some neighborhoods right now. There are solutions, and we're not doing them. On the global horizon is a severe cutback of humanity. We'll be lucky if a couple billion of us survive this. Okay, I keep my optimism up by saying to everybody, you and your loved ones can be among those survivors if you get things right now. And my passion is for here in Hawaii, there is a very simple solution. Our state government could issue a local currency, call it alohas. Do it digitally. Really easy to do, right? Gee, doesn't take a lot of personnel. And give those alohas, pay those alohas to all the unemployed people here, all of the hotel workers who were making beds, to grow healthy organic food on government land. Dick, tell everybody you're going to be able to pay your state taxes in these alohas. That validates the currency. This is how other states got out of the 1929 depression. They issued scripts, local scripts. The alohas are no good offshore. So that means every aloha you earn here in Hawaii stays in Hawaii. So at circuit, you need less money if you circulate it faster. We now pay people in dollars and it goes right out through Costco, Walmart, and you know who. Right out of the state, right? All grains offshore. Say nothing about the hotels. Now then you dictate that food suppliers and landlords have to accept these alohas. And very quickly, you could boost the economy, not doing anything about the dollar. You're running in parallel with it. You can link the value to it if you want, but you're not interfering with the dollars at all. And this is completely legal way to operate. You know what I get out of this is something we all knew is that this is a big problem. And as in the biblical reference, we have to do it together. It's a test of our community. And Hawaii does have an advantage because we're remote from the mainland because we have perhaps greater control over these things or greater consciousness and environment. And it seems to me that we have a flying chance of doing this, but we have to act together. It's not enough that you feel this way or even that you govern your life this way might help you to a certain limited extent. But if you want the community, the society to survive and thrive, the society must act together. So far, we haven't done that. But I hope we do. And I think we should have further discussions of this, Elizabeth, to talk about exactly drilling down on how the legislature, how the governor could adopt initiatives that would make it possible here in Hawaii. We have to distinguish ourselves or the result will be terrible. Thank you very much, Elizabeth. I hope we can get together again soon. Do I get a last word? Of course you do. You have to close. It's your obligation to close. Okay. Well, I just want to point out that Dr. Tusi, you know Dr. Tusi, Papalii, Hawaii University of Hawaii professor and Samoan, while they're dear friends. He just wrote an in an email. He said some wonderful things about how the initial reaction of our society to any kind of a discomfort is a kind of shoot first, ask questions later approach. And that in, you know, I'm trying to get across that we have set ourselves up so arrogantly above nature, so we're superior to it, rather than having the humility to learn from it, understand how utterly dependent we are on our micro world. And so what he talks about is, is how Aloha is not about healing. I mean, it's not about curing a disease. It's about healing, healing the disease, the disease, rebalancing things. And we know what to do, as you pointed out. So really, Jay, why do we stay in prison when the door is so wide open? My favorite roomy line. Why do we stay in prison when the door is so wide open? We know what to do. Okay, Elizabeth, we're going to leave it there, but we'll circle back. We'll have a further discussion. I'll be asking you some hard practical questions at that time. Thank you so much. Harder? Harder, yeah. Even harder. Okay, I'm up for it. All right. Thank you, Elizabeth, that Taurus always enjoy our discussions. We'll do it again soon. Aloha.