So I work on system D. I'm actually a developer and I also make the end system in Fedora and I work on, that's not good, I also work on like creative technologies and one of those creative technologies is the bootloader and the EETRDs that I use afterwards and I'm talking about the project to simplify the way that we construct EETRDs and well to make the boot process simpler. So what is the EETRD? It's a small file system that the bootloader passes to the kernel and the purpose of the EETRD is to, well it has one main reason to exist, it's so that the kernel can mount really complicated storage. So the kernel itself can handle a root file system that is simple, it can handle for example a single partition but if we have encrypted data or radar arrays or LVM and stuff like that it is too complicated for the kernel to mount on its own so it will unpack a very simple system into memory, start the system and then the system starts quickly, mounts the real file system and switches to the real file system and I want to mention that in this talk I'll be using the terms EETRD and EETRMFS and interchangeably and EETRD is an older technology that involves an actual file system image and EETRMFS did away with the image part and we just have a bunch of files that we unpack into a temporary file system in memory and this is our EETRMFS in EETRD. So how does it work right now? We use Drakwood and Drakwood is a complicated beast implemented in a bash and so we have bash scripts managing other bash scripts and also non-bash scripts and Drakwood has functionality that is used to construct the EETRD image but it also has functionality that is used in the EETRD image when it boots. So there are two parts and this can be even split further. So if Drakwood modules are parts that provide some function, for example we would have a module for LVM and we could have a module for networking and stuff like that and there are dependencies between modules so one module requires another one or conflicts with some other module and Drakwood also has so Drakwood provides mechanisms to the dependency resolution. It has helpers to install different kinds of things. A very important one is the ability to install an executable so we tell Drakwood to install an executable and it will pull in the executable and all the libraries that this executable links to so that the binary can actually execute properly but it also has helpers for new dev roles and kernel modules and different stuff and so so Drakwood will execute those scripts they will produce the image and Drakwood will zip up the image put it in the right place and then after we reboot Drakwood also drives the execution it so controls what happens in the EETRD and some of the things that are involved are normal programs and some of the things are scripts and helpers specifically Drakwood. Now this is pretty complex and it kind of makes sense if we look at the evolution of EETRDs over time so initially when when EETRDs were started to be used computers were much slower and memory was slow this was slow CPUs were slow so like unpacking of a large archive to have a large EETRD image would be very painful so people created EETRDs that were very customized so like for example it could be a it could use a busy box and it could have some custom written scripts to do some some very specific things but people wanted more functionality and over time there was a natural pressure to take programs from the host system and add them info to the EETRD so like for example you want to support LVM you don't want to implement the whole thing again so you're pulling the the binaries from the from the system but still the environment was very special and at some point one of the programs that Drakwood started pulling in into the EETRD was system D and if you let system D run in any environment so on a on a real hardware or on a visual machine or in an EETRD it will set up the system always in pretty much the same way so it will like mount slash proc and slash sys and slash dev and slash fpts and set limits and environment variables and the host name and so if you are running for programming underneath system D in the EETRD and in the real host system you are running in pretty much the same environment and so so I would call this almost normal but we still have some custom bits and and I'm well the idea is to remove those remaining custom bits and just let system D handle all of the runtime environment in the EETRD and just use normal programs and normal services that we would use on the host so I want to draw a parallel to to a transition from XOR to Wayland in three aspects so the system that that we have for creating in EETRDs it evolve all time and it addresses problems that that that that were valid 10 years ago but but and computing environment has changed the CPUs are much faster and we don't really want to optimize the size of the EETRD that much we don't need to do that and also if we are using binaries that are compiled is of scripts there isn't really that much flexibility in what you can put in the EETRD anyway so and in some ways like with X that X was addressing problems that were valid problems but the solutions were really complicated and at some point people said well okay let's try with a with a completely new approach much simpler and the push to this for this change was done from the inside so it was the X maintainers X developers who who introduced the new system and something similar is happening here I'm working with the talk but I'm working on this project with Lukash Nekrian and Mikhail Sekretash who are and and Lena Pottering and other folks who help maintain Drakut in in Fedora and Rail and who are Drakut developers and the third aspect that is kind of the same is that the new system and the old system have to coexist for years because well we provide something new but there is a long tail functionality that is very hard to implement and we have to be prepared to use to let people switch back and forth between the two when it makes sense for them of course here the problem with the interdice is way way smaller but I think it's kind of similar so so why is the interdice so special if if we look at this from the point of the view of the kernel actually the interdice is the kernel doesn't care it's just a file system and it's well it's a temporary file system in memory so it's gone after your reboot but you start the programs and do things in exactly the same way and the times before system D I mean for example in the interdice you might not have slash proc mounted or something like that so things were much different but with system D the environment is very similar to the to the real one and in fact we have to use a special file to tell programs that are running in the interdice so we have slash etc in the release instead of slash etc always release and there are like cosmetic differences so for example the kernel will invoke slash in it instead of slash has been in it for some reason and I want to highlight the the fact that there is nothing special that we would want to do in there indeed that we wouldn't want to do in the host system at some point so like if we have ability to to mount a degraded rate array in the interdice environment then we certainly want to have the ability to to mount this degraded rate array in the real system and the same applies for pretty much any other thing and it also goes the other way so you might think that we for example we don't need bluetooth in the interdice environment but let's say that you have a bluetooth keyboard and you need to do some debugging or some type in some password or whatever then of course you want to use your keyboard so you need bluetooth you there was a wonderful talk earlier today about accessibility and if you are using a screen there you also want to use the screen there in the interdice so you want the sound system to be working and so and so on so there is this actual tendency to want to be able to just take any program that you including the whole stack of dependencies that you use in the real system and plug it into the interdice and not not all not at all times but at least optionally yes and I want to highlight the fact that in the past maybe there things are done with scripts but now we do them with with demons or with these compiled programs and we just don't want to implement the things the second time and also we shouldn't try to do packaging twice right if we have a some some program and it gains a new file the maintenance of the package will take care of this but then if the program is used in the interdice then we probably have to also adjust configuration of charcode and it just means duplicate work duplicate packaging work so to simplify things we have those various aspects of functionality of of charcode and we can replace them easily by other stuff that we have so the modules and and dependencies between them we can if we build the in-card from rpms then rpm has a full-blown dependency system and we just use that we have to create the interdice but if we are using rpms and we get this for free so basically we tell dnf to take a set of packages installed to a temporary directory and they create a cpio archive so any tramfs is a compressed cpio archive so there's some additional tweaks to this so you probably wouldn't in practice want to do it this way but it's entirely feasible we have the the runtime in the interdice so the event queue and this is what system d does and it does it quite well we are already using system d in the system d in the edrd so it's more about removing things than adding anything new and all the other functionality well here is this this is more complex the some functionality is only implemented as for example as as rapid modules and it might be necessary to either take those programs and make them into separate packages or or implement them since this is more complicated than in general the idea is that we will use normal programs the same ones that you can install in the whole system in the interd um so why um right it's about simplifying things it's about not remembering everything stuff again and rpm is very good at installing packages and packages are doing i mean a lot of packaging work is figuring out dependencies between between rpm's and and specifying them in a in the appropriate way so we can just reuse that uh a big difference is that's kind of like becoming moving towards more modern approaches to to software development is that um right now we uh when we are building in rd we take files from the host installation and copy them over into the interd so if there is some local modification it gets carried over if there is corruption to one of the um files it is also carried over and the edrd can be slightly different on every system and if we just take rpm's and install rpm's well rpm's have check sums um we produce an imaginable image and the image is reproducible and it looks always the same on every system if we use the same recipe to build it so this is more like our current approaches to packaging we want stuff to be predictable and reproducible and well yes the idea is to to get rid of bash from the from the boot sequence so this parallels the transition to system d with some people like the idea but it was painful to some extent yes things need to be to be something's needed to be implemented and it will also be true here but in the end we get the system that is simpler um and we don't if I mean nobody wants to maintain uh debug track with issues because they have the environment is very special and it's just much easier to to say yes this uh this program has this issue and this is just try it out on a real system debug it there and if it dissolves there it should also be solved in the rd um and the last two aspects are a kind of social uh so uh if right now because the environment is so special it's not clear who should own bugs in the entire d so this is like the the for example if we have something goes wrong with lvm is it lvm maintainers is it the maintainers of track with is it system d uh there's too many parts involved and by simplifying the system we kind of also simplify the handling of bugs and we don't do it twice so you know in the normal community spirit of open source things are immediately reused in other places and uh well the the project to do this is currently implemented as a something called mks and ksi in rd so mksi make operating system image is a program that was developed to test other programs so for example system d during development and it takes a list of packages and quickly builds an operating system image from those packages it supports many different distributions but in particular dnf and then you can take this this this this image and install your program that you want to test on top of that of the image and and for example put a virtual machine with with your install program but for for the purposes of interdiscipline we don't care about the second part we just care about this first part so we take a list of packages and install an image and some some small processing on it and mksi interd the project is actually a set of configuration files for mksi that tell it what packages to install to successfully build any interd that can be used to for example build a machine with a vm and and loss um and uh i looked at some alternatives so qe is a system to build operating system images developed by open susa uh i mean say cross community project and i was built as something similar from red hat um and it seemed easier to to adapt mksi to do the necessary tweaks that are necessary for interdies but i think the main idea is to use rpms and and and dnf and maybe in the future mksi interd will be replaced by i don't know but it's built in here early this is entirely feasible so what's what's the general plan so in the first phase and we are quite early in this phase interd images are generated locally so there is a script you invoke and you get a uh cpr archive and we put it in the right place and well you have the interd so just like with track and once we have that working um and we recover three important cases we want to move to stage two where we centralize the building of interdies right because if the images are producible and every build gives you the same result doing it over and over is uh on every machine it doesn't really make sense and um uh right now if you install a kernel uh the slowest part is actually generation of the interd uh so if we centralize this we will save some some speed on on the end save some time on the end using machines uh and once we have this generation at some point we want to add signing so the kernels are signed the bootloaders are signed and we can also sign a set of interd images and the the end goal uh is that you if you're using secure boot you can uh check the signature because right now with secure boot we check signatures on the bootloader and on the kernel but not on the interd which turns the kernel what to do so it's a pretty big hole uh and in the usual scheme so um well we want to extend this tool to interd these two um and uh so how does it work um well right now if you install a kernel uh the kernel has a a scriptlet to uh that calls kernel install uh and uh kernel install has a set of plugins to different things like uh in particular one of them is to generate the interd so uh uh using output and we have a a new kernel install plugin that will generate an mksi interd image and well it does it by by calling mksi with the right configuration for this for the specific kernel version and uh kernel install puts in puts the the interd in the right place so basically uh if you install the this is not not all of this is not packaged yet but probably with the next version of system d you just be able to upgrade the kernel and if you put the right configuration file in the right place you will get an mksi interd image and it should boot your machine if you like um so the images that we generate um they're not the same as as not as optimized as traffic images they're maybe twice as big and if we unpack them it turns well the contents are about twice as big it's uh you know an extra 100 megabytes is uh noticeable but it's uh feasible for for to work with this and it's not too painful um we have been doing uh we have been doing optimization work on system d for example to reduce the dependency tree of libraries but in fact it uh affects jacquard and mksi interd images in a very similar way so so the duration will probably not change but if we look inside of those images and compare that change um the big difference is that mksi interd images have lots of kernel modules and um um what the general idea is that instead of uh hand picking which uh modules should be installed we just install everything from the kernel core package and the module not the kernel itself uh and at some point i hope that the kernel will split out a um kernel modules in interd sub package or something like that uh because the kernel maintainers are better positioned to to set to to know which modules should be should be part of the mkd and i know if the kernel adds or removes modules in different kernel versions uh this should be done at the level of the packaging of the kernel uh and not externally i think so uh well there's this big difference but i hope it will be uh changed by kernel packaging at some point and if we look at slash bin and slash sbin uh so the the actual executables there's maybe two times difference um and again this is because jacquard hand picks uh which executables to install and here i'm just installing a set of uh rpm packages that are necessary and um so so there's there's a bit more stuff but it's not enough to matter what takes a lot of space is the dependencies so the libraries and it turns out that already we is kind of the same in both cases because um you have lots of programs but they share most of the dependencies so if you install at least some of the programs you end up with pretty much the same set of libraries and um then there are some some more complicated differences like uh i don't know three megabytes of licenses and maybe we could remove them but if at some point we want to distribute the interd as a separate thing then we according to um to the rules we'll probably have to include the licenses they compress pretty well so maybe it doesn't matter that much um then we have some nifo files and then we ask to yourself does it matter if the interd is able to display local time properly um probably it should uh is it worth five megabytes i don't know that's a tough question and and so on so on um and one big difference is that charcut interd's do not include the hardware database so when you put the machine and you for example you have a keyboard which requires some keys to the remap because they are labeled improperly um you will not get the stream mapping in the interd i think that this is not a good idea i mean it's it's the hardware database is pretty large and a large part of it is um just descriptions of hardware that you will not use in the interd but some of the stuff is really necessary and uh if we add like more user-facing functionality into the interd then most likely we want to have like the full hardware database description and the full udev rules so that things behave the same as in the real system so maybe we'll just end up with those slightly bigger interd images maybe it's worth to pay this price um and so i kind of lost over this problem but the reason why charcut builds images um locally is that you want to do modifications and variants and so on um and the partial answer to this is a system called system dc6 so system extensions it's something that works on the host system and it also works in the interd it's a system where you give a part of an operating system image to system d and it mounts it on top of the the real file system using overlay fs so uh this sounds kind of complicated and so let's say that you you want to have um you have a system without sshd and you want to add sshd so you take your system and you create a and slash a system a partition with slash user that contains the contents of the sshd package and maybe any other packages that sshd requires uh recursively that are not part of the of your base image and uh you create this um this this this this image on its own it's not usable right because it requires other stuff that is not included so it's it's pretty small and the only way to use it is to mount it on top of a compatible base and and so the idea here is that we'll build system sys x for the interd to i don't know add um like rescue mode or uh or bluetooth or sshd or sound or sound with a screen reader and so on and then people will be able to mix and mash to get the appropriate functionality and we will not have to build a hundred different variants of the interd because if you want to do it centrally you kind of have to cover most functionality with some um pre-built set of things and um the important thing about sys x is that they support um embedded signatures so uh a normal way that the sys x is delivered is a um that you have a disk image with a gpt table and it has three partitions one partition contains the file system with the with the data that you that they do the actual contents and then you have a variety partition that specifies hashes for the data partition and then you have a third even smaller partition that contains a signature for the uh variety data so system d will um before it uses the extension it will verify the signature and it's correct and it matches the the entirety data and then the kernel verifies that the data partition matches the variety data and and it's a bit complex but it's efficient and flexible so uh before I move to the implementation so let me reiterate so so the idea is that with in the end uh with secure boot you have this approach where uh the the bootloader well the the firmware verifies the bootloader and the bootloader verifies the kernel through a signature and the int id for a signature and then we we put the int id and the int id uh wants to add extensions and it will verify the signatures on the extensions and then mount them so it's all everything is verified before being run so uh we have uh added support to build uh sys x with mksi 2 you always build an extension on top of an existing system so uh we kind of repetitive process that is done for interdies we create a temporary uh directory putting the the packages for the base layer this is pretty quick because it's just it's really a 100 megabytes or so and then create an overlay fs it starts with the interd as the lower layer and then we put the an empty upper layer initially empty and into this upper layer we inject packages whatever for example sshd and the dependencies and then we discard the lower layer and the upper layer because becomes our data partition for the sys x and then maybe we add verity and the signature if you want um and well i mean this this mksi does this kind of automatically a specific list of packages and you get the extension so uh what works right now um you can create interdies um if you install the kernels templates you can also get the interd generating automatically when you install a new version of the kernel um you can build extensions you can load them and like basic laptop use cases are covered um we have been using this on our laptops for three months and it seems to work without too many issues um you can put virtual machines and lvm locks this is this all works um emergency mode also works hibernation and resume um french checksum style has been uh working on adding automated testing for this uh and one of the things that we quickly found out is that ice fuzzy does not work there's some uh supporting track with to to figure out the kernel parameters for ice fuzzy and we don't have an implementation for this that is separate from track with um and uh i won't go over the list but there's like a hundred different things that uh might work or might not work we don't really know until they have been properly tested uh but in principle everything that works on the host should also work on the should work in the interd so it's more of a question of um checking things and figuring figuring out if there are any bugs rather than creating anything from scratch so um to summarize um so what are the main ideas build any interd from system packages uh let the um normal package installation mechanisms that do the complicated work and in the interd itself let system d um take care of the whole uh runtime um so basically remove things um and do everything in the interd the same as on the host and well use the uh various system d functionality for extensions and um signature verification and and uh if that works we want to move to the to the next phase where we kind of centralize the building of interd images and at some point also allow people to to uh prove this into secure boot and those are links to documentation also for for uh dm variety and overlay fs and i think i've time for some questions so should i start with the first question um jaco is used in all kinds of distributions also many outside of the rp universe how would they deal with this if their packages are not managed by rp well it's a beautiful question i'm sorry sorry hoping just kick me out i'm yeah so i'm i'm saying the first question um mksi is distribution independent uh it supports dnf uh uh debjan ubuntu uh gen two alma linux uh rocky linux and arch east and maybe photon so if this works for rpms it should also work for all those other distributions uh because right now we have the situation where uh some parts of the stack are shared between distributions so in part the system d and all the units and the higher level programs and the the interd generation is one of the few remaining things which are significantly different between distributions and i think that with this approach we can unify and if we convince other distributions to use it but we will see okay so next question is should we start moving this approach and how could we can prepare for this so um that's i don't have a very good answer if you if you go to the mksi interd project on github we have a a list of to-do items um and in particular it means you know testing with uh different parts of the functionality and kind of improving the the coverage and figuring out what works uh so we have to finish this phase first and then once it actually all works then we can kind of move with the um further phases so i think that you cannot really prepare in any way for this except that if you want to get involved with with the testing and in development then it wouldn't be very welcome okay next question is from Timoti how do we support local configuration changes and have those signed verified yes so um in general we try to handle local configuration for the kernel command line um and the the idea is that um well basically you somehow verify your kernel command line and this is the the interd is is generic and supports all kernel command lines there are there are some mechanisms to kind of similar to the sysx staff for additional data for example um local secrets and and the the general idea is that you store the secrets uh in a file in that is that the bootloader passes to the to the interd uh and those secrets are um encrypted and they are encrypted for the tpm so to protect them from an offline attack um and but this is for for for secrets more for secrets and for configuration the configuration is usually done for the kernel command line but um maybe this will not be enough and then we will need other mechanisms to to inject more configuration to the interd it's an it's an open question to some extent okay thank you for your answer a question from a chat so the eventual goal would be to make the init rd another package installed along and along other packages yes yes the the the interd images would be built and you it would build the kernel in colgi and then you would this would fire off a build of init rds and then there would be like another package um and then the package well like right now the kernel package uh it has a kernel in user live and then there is some some hook to take the kernel and copy the boot partition and this the same would happen here okay another question from you if um mc init rd is used by default then is it possible to drop system md udef trigger dot service which triggered at events for all devices possibly already processed by udfd previously so the thing is that we will we will not have all packages installed in the interd so the it's possible that you have more roles in the host system uh so we want to offer this situation where we have different roles but like special roles in the interd but you always have to be prepared for this situation where you have more programs installed so i think we will need to do the trigger anyway because we need to handle this case but maybe you can get rid of it i don't know okay thank you and the last question i mean instead of re-triggering an event you events is it possible to export udf database from init rd file system to switched file system um so i think that right now we um when you have stops uh it um and we want to restart udf and the version of udf that is running in the host system might be a different version so it will want to rebuild the database anyway um maybe it would be possible but um i think that udf um well wasn't really i mean it's not prepared for this um we probably could do it but if we have to re-trigger anyway for for additional roles uh then um this optimization wouldn't really give us that much um so uh like with track would we have the situation where we uh completely dropped the the database in the entirety and this part is removed it kind of lives until we restart udf um so this is and we are already handling things a bit different uh and maybe we could even make udf more continuous like with system d right system d serializes the state and passes it to the to the registered instance but this would require some refactoring of udf uh i don't know it's uh hasn't been uh we haven't really discussed this upstream okay thank you for your answer and thank you everyone for your questions it seems that this topic interested a lot of people uh zbishek will be in our virtual virtual venue also work adventure so you have a link in a chat so feel free to hop in there and discuss this topic more with zbishek and thank thank you zbishek for your uh for your um presentation it was great have a nice day and everyone uh enjoy your lunch lunch break and there's a lightning talks in room one and also a session to a little bit of move your body around before lunch uh in main stage


Beginning August 29th, tune in for a short subject documentary presented by Dell Technologies. Nature Fresh Farms – Navigating the Road to Cyber Resiliency. A special presentation from theCUBE.


Nicolw我不 addai fod y bwrddёт i'r gofod yng ngwych yw yn digwydd i chi fel y gilyddai y mentech ac na all o marозionball sy'n eu meddylu ac y dywed yn redyn nhw'n deoedd gyffodus gan asfawr panreal ychydig ac opto ar gyfer drwsgrill yma ar y gair ar grants yrdydd ym gychart aiced bod ganddoedd i'ch hyn aheld arbennig i'r pyfe o determiner yn ei rhywbeth ar weithio RwyonaethYour very brief If they are impressionistic, I apologise for the fact that they come from a lawyer, and even worse than that English lawyer, to forgive my perhaps parochial view of life. I want to simply pick out some trends, as they seem to me, and some ideas that seem to me to emerge from the last two days. One is that increasingly there seems to be a general recognition that surrogacy is something which is there as a legitimate means of forming a family, but of course there is a very long way to go, and the two demonstrations of that are the menacing family who spoke so powerfully yesterday and the Spanish-Ukrainian issue which has just been articulated. I'll come back to the international problem. One message which seems to come through is that the earlier a state legislated, the more out of date that legislation is, and there are, in effect, two demonstrations of that. The fascinating historical survey we have given of the USA position was immensely illuminating, and the work which the law commissions in this country are doing very much goes to make the shame point. Our legislation in this country is elderly by any standard. It only works because of the judicial ingenuity which goes into making rules which are not fit for purpose actually work. So legislation is the way forward. Anything to do with reproduction nowadays, anything to do with surrogacy nowadays, marches forward at an incredibly fast pace. So the legislation may become out of date very quickly, reflecting both changes in science and changes in social attitudes. So the process of updating and keeping legislation update, I suspect, is an ongoing process which will not come to an end for a very long time. Now we had, in terms of the program, a very interesting conceptual distinction between four different approaches, and that analysis I think is very useful as a tool to understanding. But one of the impressions I've got is that in relation to the tolerant approach, the free market approach, and the regulatory approach, they are in fact converging fairly rapidly. And although the American approach was tackarded as the free market approach, I hope I went to offend our transatlantic colleagues by saying that in fact the emphasis of what we were listening to was very much on regulation. And the impression I have is that wherever we started from, we are increasingly moving towards a process and an approach of which one might describe as regulation. Now there is, of course, that leaves on one side the prohibitive approach, which I venture to suggest it might be thought is becoming increasingly inactive. What is very troubling about the prohibitive approach is the very simple fact of life that when one comes to matters like having a family, people will want to have families, and if they cannot have the family they want by staying within their own state, they will go abroad to find it. The consequence of prohibition, whatever it is you are prohibiting, is that people will go to find what they are looking for. And the consequence of that is very well illustrated from different perspectives, both by the menacing family case and by the instance I have just been listening to about the Spanish created problems which our friends suggest are unfairly focusing on Ukraine. And I think he's suggesting it's a Spanish problem or a Ukrainian problem. But whatever it be, what those cases demonstrate is that the consequence of the prohibitive approach is to focus attention on what I call the rule of recognition. What in state A, whose people go to state B to have their child, is the rule of private international law which determines whether or not administrative or judicial processes in state B do or do not have recognition. And in essence we heard very interesting material from France where because of the French domestic approach to this, the focus of the international private international law issue was in applying the French concept of the birth certificate in the case of the foreign birth certificate. It is a very real problem, and not least in this country, in England and Wales, where our rule of recognition is such and very long established, our rule of recognition is such that no foreign determination in the service in case, whether it arises by operation of the foreign law or by operation of some foreign administrative process or indeed some foreign judicial process, is recognized in England and Wales. And that is why we have the problem, which has been referred to more than once, of the limbo between the child coming back, stateless, parentless in English law, and the point at which the parental order is made, if indeed the parental order is ever made. Now, that is a very big problem. What's the way forward? Well, the impression I have is, as I say, that increasing the view is, unless you're a prohibitionist, or wants to move to some system of regulation. And one question which arises is very neatly encapsulated in the comparison between what we were told about what goes on in the Republic of South Africa, and on the other hand, the UK law commission's proposals is the question of whether the process should take place before conception or after the birth. And as I understand it in the Republic of South Africa, it is a pre-birth process. And as you were told yesterday, the pathway being proposed by the English and Scottish law commissions is again for a pre-birth process. In contrast, of course, the current English position is a post-birth process, which is the very thing which creates limbo and all the other problems. So that one great question seems to me to be, is if one is going to move to the regulatory position, does one adopt, as a matter of principle, a pre-birth process or an ex post-hack day process? And I have the impression from listening to the various contributions and papers that the consensus seems to be moving towards a pre-birth rather than a post-birth process. Now, that it might be thought is probably right for two quite distinct reasons. One is that you can only have, I suspect, real protections if there is an effective process of regulation pre-conception. And the reason for that, as we have discovered in this country, and Lucy hinted at it just a few minutes ago, is if you have a post-birth process and the judge is presented, if it's a judicial process, ex post facto with a live child who is living with ex and why. If you don't make the order, then the consequence in a jurisdiction like ours is that the child remains parentless and maybe stateless in a completely legal limbo. And therefore, whatever attention you pay to welfare, however carefully the welfare reports put together, however much you try and focus on the best interests of the child, I suspect, and this seems to accord with a lot of discussion we've heard over the last two days, the best protection for the best interests of the child is by a pre-birth rather than a pre-conception rather than a post-birth process. Now, another question which arises, and I'm identifying issues rather than necessarily writing the answers, is should the process, whether pre-conception or post-birth, be a judicial process or a administrative process. And there we have the instant contrast between the South African model, which is unequivocally a judicial process, and on the other hand we have the proposals of the United Kingdom law commissions for a process which is not judicial, and I might describe as being administrative. Now, which is better? That is not a matter I'm going to pass as an answer to, although it may surprise you to think to hear, like often thought, as an evens of judge, there are many things better left to mechanisms which are not judicial. But it does seem to be an important question, and it's one which the law commission has come to be very clear of you on, and it is interesting to have the contrast. That's one of the great advances of these conferences, one that discovers what's going on elsewhere. Now, given the problems, in particular the international, private international law recognition problems in relation to international surreducy arrangements, what is the way forward? Well, one approach I suppose is model laws, and if one's going to have model laws, they have got to deal with two separate issues, it seems to me. The domestic, what should the domestic law be, what should the minimum requirements within the domestic law of state be, but even more critically if one's going to have model laws, one needs model laws dealing with the rules of recognition. The public international law rules governing the consequences of transnational international surreducy. And the more I listen to what we heard about the hay conference approach and the comments, it does seem to me that probably that is our best chance of moving forward and getting workable rules, at least in relation to the recognition issue. And I suspect that given the different views held in different countries about the goodness or the badness, the appropriateness or the inappropriate surreducy, views which are often affected by cultural, religious, social, historical things, it is going to be difficult to establish any kind of international consensus on the substantive content of domestic law unless it is, as has been suggested, to establish minimum requirements of an appropriate regime. It may be that the single most important way forward is to encourage the Hague machinery to move as fast as possible to some internationally, and that sort of criticism of them. These things take time and we were delicately hinted at that the activity of the Hague expert group is determined, the pace was determined by what governments do. But given that the menacing family case and the Spanish thing which has been hearing about are so fundamental in terms of the human consequences for the people involved, it does seem to me that what is a lawyer, I call the rule of recognition, the private international law rules are those which are most urgent in our attention and which may soon get us to where we need to get to. I mean it was profoundly moving listening to the members of the menacing family yesterday, as indeed it was listening to the other presentations by women who were actually involved in the process, to realize bringing home to us the human realities of all this. And when one just pauses to think we heard hints of it this morning in the presentation of the research from India, we've heard it in the last few minutes in terms of the Spanish families who are trapped in Ukraine and Georgia and elsewhere. Because of the actions of their own government, the human misery must be immense.  Or international non-regulation, which permits what earlier was described as a wild west, if the consequences of that are that, to take up the example we just heard about, that there are Spanish families trapped in Ukraine and not, as far as I can understand, the responsibility of Ukraine directly. Now just two final observations. I mean it's easy to analyze this in legal terms, particularly if you're a lawyer, but I mean two big issues which have been hinted at from time to time over the last couple of days, but which perhaps because they're so distressing to think about are the elephants in the room, are first of all, looking at from one point of view, the risks of exploitation of surrogate mothers. And we have all known in our professional careers of the most shocking exploitation in the context of international adoption of mothers in financially deprived circumstances, mothers in what's conventionally called third world of developing countries, who have been the victims of that exploitation. And it would be idle to imagine that that is not going on even as we speak in the context of international surrogacy. And it was a very interesting, illuminating nazis we had this morning of the research which we were given a preview of in relation to the surrogates, the surrogate mothers in Gujarat. Well that's one side of the issue. The other side of the issue, which was touched upon yesterday in this case to the question of what should the regulatory mechanisms be, what should the protections be, is that because regulatory systems, particularly if they involve judicial proceedings, cost money, any system of that sort is privileging the wealthy over the less wealthy. So behind all the legal nazis, behind many things we've been talking about, there are two issues, both which reflect wealth on the one hand or the other, which one can't help feeling, do have a significant role to play. So we need to think about that. And the cost of regulatory systems, particularly if they involve judicial proceedings, are perhaps matters to be taken into account when one considers what kind of system one wants in the future if we want a regulatory system, how pervasive, how expensive, the American systems we've heard described are immensely impressive. They are to use a well-worn English strategy, the absolute Rolls Royce approach. But when one hears that for example part of an American regulatory process is that the intended parents are expected to foot the bill for all the services being provided to the surrogate mother, some of them on a regular basis. It does raise very starkly the issue. I have no idea what the answer is. It does raise very starkly the issue. Well that's a system which as the price to be paid for achieving the right solution in one direction is actually creating a privilege for the wealthy which is denied for the less wealthy. Those are just a few random thoughts. I'd like to think that in three or four years time, James, you can organise another conference where on this topic where there'll be fewer storm clouds and where we'll have a tremendous report from the Hague conference, but who knows.  Thank you all very much for coming here. I hope you've all enjoyed it as much as I have and a tremendous great of thanks, James, to you and your teams, the speakers and not forgetting the foot soldiers, if I call them that, who have been so helpful to us in pointing us in the direction and so on and so forth. Thank you all very much indeed. I've gone away much better informed. I hope it's a little wiser. You've probably used it all already. Anyway, there we are. Many, many thanks to all of you.


So I hope you had a great a great weekend whether you celebrate Easter or something else I'm just sitting here with this morning with my beer mug full of tea and Playing with a few things I thought I would just pop on live why not so before I left to go to Las Vegas I Started gathering a bunch of old electronic small appliances and things from around the house that are no longer functioning I know I've seen Shannon Green many times in the past disassemble things to save parts And I think it was Kathy Rose or somebody before I left that did the same thing So I was gonna Take all of these things apart none of the whom work anymore Hey at Bex creations. Good morning While I was in Las Vegas, I want did a lot of wandering around with Michelle from Lady Blue Studios and Usually when I'm traveling I collect one or two smashed pennies from wherever I happen to be and I just use heavy Gel medium to stick them in my journal this time because Michelle is a smashed penny collector I have a lot of them So I think they're gonna be added to my pieces and parts pile. I think at some point. I'm going to Drill holes in them and maybe put them on a journal charm or something. I know aren't they great I even saved the one that is smashed incorrectly Which in itself is interesting so they're probably going to go in this box of stuff that I'm going to do this morning we went to Red Rock Canyon and I got This copper coin with a turtle on it. That's a collector coin and Then I also got This little thing from Red Rock Canyon this little other little silver coin thing. I Of course, you know Aaron if you've seen Aaron from imperfect impulses video. He was talking about meeting up with people in Las Vegas. Yes, that was me It's okay. He didn't need to mention my name or not, but It his name is going to come up in my video because of this little thing a zipper pole so yes, we convinced him into picking up trash in the middle of downtown and You know if I could have fit those symbols on my suitcase I would have brought him home But we convinced him he needed to have them and we want to see what he makes with them But later on I was at in a store parking lot with the girls and I found this broken zipper pole Which of course I had to pick up so that's going to go in the box this morning. Oh Thank you. Yeah, aren't there some pretty desert wild flowers out there and Then I also picked up a bunch of these souvenir poker chips Now I had all of these from previous Las Vegas trips and these are mostly from the McDonald's Store McDonald's. I'm not McDonald's store. Holy cow M&M world. I need more to caffeine I'm telling you these are mostly from M&M world And I've had these from previous trips this time. I picked up some from Walgreens actually So I think at some point also these are going to go in this parts box And at some point I'm going to drill holes or something in these and make them into some kind of a charm or I Don't know a bracelet or something So I've got all these kind of random bits and I dug up up Box from the garage It's gonna be like random Chunky bits box. I think is what it I'm gonna call it random chunky bits. I kind of like that random chunky bits All right So I've got a few different things here and I've got some tools oops All right, because I don't know what I'm gonna need got my reading glasses so I can see what I'm doing We're gonna start on the small one So none of these pieces are functioning like I said, these are all broken electronics even the adding machine and So this is from one of my two daughters two wireless mice that don't work anymore Plus she says they're a little bit too little girly for a 21 almost 22 year old She's probably right but anyway So I don't know this is the like wireless antenna thing wireless. Yeah receiver There may be nothing in here, but let's find out If you're gonna do this the point is not to hurt yourself. So keep your fingers out of the way if you're gonna like Use a hammer or an exacto knife or something please take all caution and Of course these pieces can be used in mixed media, but I'm think I'm more interested in using some of these pieces in like Journal charms and stuff. Whoops Okay, so the plastic is garbage. I'm not gonna save that but look at that inside that little antenna thing Some interesting bits in there. I think I kind of like it just the way it is So we're gonna save that and pop that in the box. That was easy. That was easier than I thought it was gonna be So now if I'm gonna start doing this now you really can't throw anything away at my house because you know We were already saving packaging labels and everything and before anybody asks Yes, Aaron from imperfect kiln pulses is as nice a guy in real life as he seems to be on YouTube FYI Very nice guy. All right. We spent a lot of time laughing which was good Okay, so here's some batteries which can't hey Michael. How are you? Can't you mix media with them? But can't even dispose of them in California in the regular garbage. We have to put them into special Special garbage. So we're just disassembling some stuff this morning chit chatting about the Las Vegas trip Which was a lot of fun. It was like all of us had known each other for ever And yes, I have glasses on I have my reading glasses on but they will protect things from popping up into my face Plus I can kind of see what I'm doing So I have all these little tiny screwdrivers and things I can use on this from when I used to be a licensed dispensing optician, but also like this one is from my grandmother's stash of Crafty supplies that she had when she passed That I inherited Well, there's a screw under there You know sometimes you just instead of breaking it just take the screws out Holy cow So I think all of us are still recovering. I don't think we got much sleep while we were gone Kind of seeing is good, right? That's what I thought DD. I thought kind of seeing would good would be good I'm killing mice. Yeah, actually these mice are already dead. They don't work very well and my daughter. These are my daughter's Mice I did not know she was amassing a collection in her room And she went and bought herself a new one because these weren't working very well and she said they were too little girly for her to keep using at 20 almost 22 years old and I Just kind of rolled my eyes to that and I she was going to throw them away and I said, uh Can I have them? How many do you have she says I have two of them. Do you want them both? I said, uh, yeah I had just watched Kathy's video where she disassembled mice and you know, shannon I know does stuff like this all the time too And I wanted to take some of this stuff and You know use some of the parts to make maybe some jewelry charms or journal charms or something It's kind of a neat little thing I don't know what I'm going to do with it, but it's cool Look at these this looks like a bug to me. There's his two eyeballs That could be interesting. So he's going to go in the box There's no sleep in Vegas. No, and I'm adding it too. We're going to call it the chunky bits box I got some of these smash pennies in Las Vegas And I had some of these poker chips from past trips in Las Vegas and I picked up a few more And you know We didn't only make I'll put this box here so you can kind of see it on camera We didn't only make air and pick up trash. I was you know, I found this zipper pull in a store parking lot I had to have that so You know So we're going to call it the chunky bits box and my desk is a disaster and I have more probably more chunky bits to add to this but I thought I would just go through it one thing at a time and maybe do it on camera I think there's a battery in here. How do I get the battery out? Up there it is couple batteries see So make sure if you're doing this and you're removing batteries and you live in an area like I do where Batteries or hazardous waste that you dispose of them properly of course It just seems wrong to break this but it doesn't It doesn't work. See we all have chunky bits, don't we? I just was you know, I'm buying them at the salvage store I should be getting them for free from things that break around the house.  Oh sucker is glued down really well I do have my little hammer out if I needed it was going to try not to hammer things on camera I thought that might be bad. So when I got back I didn't need exercise when I got back from um Las Vegas My ipad died I guess that it was its last hurrah So I am watching the comments on my new ipad air 2 which I wasn't planning on buying right now, but I I don't know if I can do without an ipad I'm getting exercise right now Michael. I gotta tell you I gotta tell you okay. Did you guys hear that?  Hopefully they didn't go in my tea I don't think they did. Holy cow That was fun We're awake now. Oh, yeah, I've got one of those the bolt bucket When my father-in-law passed away He had this just big random box full of bolts and stuff that we inherited and took home We still have it and when I need parts sometimes my husband's kind of giving me free rain to go out there and take whatever I want Holy cow. That was messy I hope none of these went in my tea. I'll be drinking rhinestones later Yeah, the little pc board b board looked like a ladybug didn't it? I think it did All right, what's inside this one? I guess From watching the other videos all mice are not created equally. So they're all a little different inside Let's see how we can get into this once more Something's breaking Yeah, that's how I felt My husband's never going to use all of the nuts and bolts in his bolt box. Are you kidding me? Have enough free eternity But this way I can get some free pcb boards and stuff too without having to go to a salvage store to buy stuff Because we do have those I live in the heart of silicon valley We have computer salvage places I can go get stuff like this from but if I have broken appliances Why am I not just using them? Because everything's got computer chips in it Uh, I am uh pacific standard time in california. It is one o'clock about just after one o'clock here. It's 111 That's the little lab ten a thing. Huh? Okay, well, we're gonna throw that away Got it. It's kind of fun. You know get your frustrations out Disassembling things and giving them a good whack. This one has like a little light bulb inside of it. I guess the other one must too No, it doesn't Nice that sounds delicious I don't think the family ate anything healthy while I was gone I came home and the fridge the refrigerator looked exactly at how it was when I left Yeah, my you know, I think men just like tools Pop this off just if you're gonna do this try to do it without you know Bleeding on anything bleeding is not the Goal here. Yeah, I think they did lots of takeout. I know at least once he did because he told me he did But there was no you mean the fridge looked the same as when I left and there was no vegetables or anything So First thing we did when I got home was besides go buy the new ipad. Let's go to the grocery store. Let's cut this wire There's two little springs in here. I'm gonna want to get out It's been nice here in california and of course in nevada too It was nice Except for the day that it was really sunny, but windy. Oh my god. I thought it was going to blow us all off the sidewalk It was so windy got it Still a spring inside there. Let's see if we can get it out. I want that spring people So I've got this direct TV remote. There we go. It stopped working And I knew it was in the garage when I decided to do this Husbands that I could have it Because it's a paperweight now Because it's a paperweight now Good for you My blood sugar has been borderline high, you know for a while. I don't I'm not diagnosed with diabetes Or even pre-diabetic, but it's high a little higher than it should be so Unless I'm on vacation. I try to watch what I eat and it's not getting any worse I think getting a little bit better, which is good Well, let's see if we can I wonder if we can pop these I want these buttons Do they come off? Maybe I have to open it first Oh I see Screws, I don't know if this screwdriver might be too big though Yeah, right. I think the rhinestones already landed in my tea It's a good thing on my glasses on I'd probably miss some of these screws There we go. Got it. It's coming out So yeah, at least I came home to a clean house and it wasn't disgusting and filthy. Thank goodness Just had an empty refrigerator Okay, direct TV really doesn't want you to get the thing apart. I took the screws out that didn't help. Oh, wait I think I found it in Yeah, for most of us getting your health under control is not, you know, yes It's always a matter of what you eat, but for most of us who are artists It's more of a matter of lack of exercise That doesn't mean you shouldn't watch what you eat But you need to make sure you go out and get some exercise too Oh, that's pretty cool. The buttons are like on a piece of rubber Alrighty. No idea D Maybe some journal charms Maybe some jewelry Some of them like this bit is rubber and I'm thinking this might be nice to Use to make impressions like on the jelly plate This whole thing feels like rubber with the buttons on it. It's all one piece If I can get it out, I'm sure grandma did not expect that I would be doing this with her little screwdriver Shit's popping out all over the place Sorry You guys might have to Watch my found language on the live broadcast because I think that the girls are a bad influence I came home swearing like a sailor not that I haven't been known to do that otherwise, but I kind of got out of the habit My husband thinks it's funny Usually I just tell my husband, can you take this apart for me? But I thought it would be fun to do it myself for a change It's just I got a pry that cover off. I'm sure there's probably a hidden screw somewhere. I don't know about Or a clip or something So there's something called a jelly plate. It's a um a printing plate that you can spread ink on or paint And you can use it to create patterns on paper or on your journal pages and it's spelled G e l l i There's a million youtube videos on it So you might want to look it up. Oh good. So see I won't scare you That's good to know Oh, there we go part of it came off Yeah, see screws I knew there had to be hidden screws in there somewhere Alrighty, let's get them out Yeah, I used to swear like a sailor before I had kids and had a daycare business and that Forces you to clean up your language And then I did the whole youtube channel thing and I wasn't sure I should be seen on camera swearing so I got out of the Habit um we have direct tv But you um we bought this remote and it's no longer functioning And so we got a new one and they don't want the old one back. So I get to play with it Yeah, you have kids and that you know makes you clean up your language So my chunky bits box is not going to be nearly as full as um cathy's when she showed hers on camera Or shannon, I'm sure has a massive collection And it's fun to buy bits and pieces from like american science and surplus or if you have a local salvage place But it's more more fun if you can get them free and not spend any money Yeah, you know my husband asked me while I was in vegas if I you know watched any tv I said nope. We didn't have the tv on not once I don't know that he believed me That's pretty cool Now see I could see this take all the some of the back pieces off And you know cut this into chunks It would be um it make interesting pieces in some jewelry or something or it could even make an interesting bookmark Hey angie, how are you? We're disassembling things this morning All right, so now I have this thing They before I got hurt at american greetings I did a lot of arts and craft shows every year and back in the days before we had The square thing or the I have the paypal one which is a triangle that you put on your smartphone You know you rang up all your sales on an adding machine And so this was my adding machine I used and It's no it's no longer functioning. So it is trash And again just like with the batteries because I live in california anything with electronics it has to be disposed of In a particular way you can't just throw it in the garbage so I um This was there was all these things were kind of in a pile in the garage and I'm like, hmm Why don't I just disassemble them and keep the bits?  I'm getting old She's just And it just goes by so fast I agree with that my daughter's 21. She'll be 22 soon. I can't believe it Yeah, I got a physical I have to go too soon It's gotten to where I hate the doctor It's probably a part of getting older I used to not mind going because I wasn't sick I can't stand going They always find something wrong even if you feel okay This time instead of prying it open without taking the screws out How about if we try to take the screws out first If I can these are deep in there. I might need a different screwdriver Garbage that suckers in there good the screwdriver is too fat to get down there I'm the oldest and I'm always the one that's responsible for everything.   It's my responsibility No, okay, so You want to take all precautions with doing this you want to make sure you're Keeping your fingers out of the way sharp instruments out of the way and unplug them That's a good point Angie. Thank you. Unplug them. They should be non functioning Unplugged electronics Don't work on stuff that's still plugged into an outlet for god's sake and avoid, you know Keep keep your fingers out of the way Well, there's a battery right there. Let's take that out. I can't get these other two screws out That's a cool piece With any arts and crafts project you should take precautions But especially when you're disassembling things like this You really want to be careful to Be mindful of sharp objects Have things unplugged Make sure what you're disassembling. Nobody wants and is really non functional Don't go grab the remote from the family room and and disassemble it the husband might get annoyed at that Come out the other way. All right I'm gonna have to go run and go get one of my other screwdrivers. I'll be right back back All right Yes, I am Even when I Am sewing I wear eye protection Even if it's just my reading glasses something in front of my eyes because I have even had sewing needles pop and fly up towards my face So always take precautions So that's a good idea Angie also like garage sales You know if you buy something that way who cares if it works or not because You're gonna take it apart. Anyways, it doesn't matter Ha ha No needles in the eyeballs are not fun. So I yeah, definitely you should when you're doing things like this You should always have some kind of protection on your face over your eyes No problem. Welcome Why am I killing this thing? So I these are all non functioning electronics from my house They were in a pile in my garage Um waiting for proper disposal. I live in california. So you can't just toss stuff out in the garbage can And I was walking watching uh, Kathy rose. I think Um, and I know Shannon does this too where they disassemble stuff and save the pcb boards and stuff for other mixed media art projects and they have kind of a chunky bits box So I thought, you know, I should start my own chunky bits box And disassemble all those things in my garage that aren't working anymore To use a mixed media art maybe make some Um Journal terms and stuff out of some of the bits Like on here on this pcb board, you know, you could take some of these little circuit things off And glue them to things or if you have some What do you call the jewelry? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have some they're flat metal on the back and they have a little tiny lip on the edge And then you could put some of these little tiny electronic parts in them and float it into some resin Maybe with an inspirational word or something You can use some of this wire in jewelry or journal charms or key chains I don't think I want this thing But I'm gonna leave it on there right now Yeah, I don't do that. That sounds like that hurts Oh, thanks. Yeah, it's not my original idea Um, but I've been seeing, you know, Shannon green does this a lot And then and I knew that Then I saw Kathy rose Taking stuff apart on her channel before I went to los vegas And thought well that would be much cheaper than buying stuff from like american science and surplus or um going out to the salvage store to buy stuff which is Drive a little bit of a drive from my house. I live in silicon valley you know computer central basically for the whole world but That doesn't mean we have a salvage computer salvage place on every corner so And when I do go I usually spend too much money and this will cost me nothing Exactly these bits would definitely make a cool journal cover. You could epoxy them to a journal cover. They would be very cool Okay, these are all connected so they're all going to have to be unconnected Wire cutters I should have gotten my big metal snips out, but I don't want to go running back out to the garage again Ah got it that piece is kind of cool. No idea what I'm going to do with that And I'm tempted to get rid of it, but I think I'm going to save it It's kind of fun to just play with All right, let's get this out. Okay, cool. You know these pcb boards, especially you could um You know clean some of the sticky up pokey outie bits That's a technical term, right?  That's not very nice. I wasn't going to come on camera today I was going to clean all the stuff up from my trip I've got my the other side of my desk that way it's literally covered with stuff But I just thought I would you know Not do that today Ha We're getting there Whoa, there go all the buttons. Did you see that? Okay, let's just get all those buttons out I'll put those and Let me get some fell on the floor I thought some fell on the floor Oh, yeah, there they are They would be very cool coasters I like that idea Especially if you have big ones like this one now look at this. This is another piece of rubber from under the buttons But it would make a cool printing plate another button. Let's get these disconnected from each other Next time you all remind me to go get my big metal snips because this is some of this would be easier with those They could just cut shit in half Yeah, you could do definitely you could do sculptures with bits and pieces like this And you know some kind of sculptures would be fun Little robot wall hangings or some kind of 3d pieces Would be a lot of fun Make sure after you do this that you really wash your hands really well Um, you don't know if they've used lots of lead solder or something like that And you don't want to like go eat lunch with lead on your hands Kind of wondering if this screen comes off Yeah, so you could make all kinds of fun stuff out of this There are some fabulous artists out there that do fun stuff with things like this Whoa, I was wondering what was under there. See I'm also curious Yeah, Shannon green did her her mask out of they it was bits like this But she got the bits at american science and surplus. I think mostly she had some I think in her stash Well, that's kind of a cool piece It's glass I'm gonna say that So there we go So now I have my own my own chunky bits box To do what I whatever I want with probably make some jewelry with I've got some batteries to dispose of in a free roll of paper To do something with So look around your house. You might have some bits and pieces you can do something like this with Like this is a big one. You could you could definitely, you know Get rid of some of the pokey outie bits and glue the rest of it down to a piece of felt and use it for a coaster It would actually be interesting. This is a cool pattern I've got a lid here somewhere. Here we go So there's my chunky bits box now because I came home and I had to buy a new ipad Because if you weren't here for the beginning of the broke broadcast, um, then you don't know that I came home from las vegas and uh My ipad my ipad was fine when it was there and I came home and it was broken So one of the things I had to go out when I came home right away is um Um Buy a new ipad So I have all of these these are for ipad two. I have back covers And then the magnetic thing that goes on the front I have two I have this one with the purple this purple one is Pretty worn, but the back is in good condition I have this one with a pink Again, the magnetic cover is kind of worn, but the pink is in great condition. These are my original artwork And then I have this brand new smart cover These are all for ipad two if somebody out there can use them. Please private message me On facebook or email me at my email address artist at gene of the errands.com and michael. I hope you feel better um take it easy and um Yeah, you know some of these bits and pieces you could definitely do that you could take this piece And do some kind of interesting little palette thing with it This would be fun to paint with I think it would just make fun impressions with the paint And I didn't you know who would have think thought this little piece of rubber would be in there I had no idea So you never know what you're going to find and where you're going to find it So if anybody can use these let me know I don't want to just donate them to goodwill Unless I have to And I think that's it for this morning. I just thought I'd come on and chat while I was disassembling stuff There's going to be a few videos coming up some of them with footage in them from las vegas um We went to viva las vegas stamp. So we were there um We visited with erin from imperfect impulses while we were there We did a lot of shopping while we were there. They have a really great store in las vegas area That we like called tokyo discount. There's actually three of them And we liked it so much. We ended up going to all three of them um So there'll be some Haul kind of haul videos. I'm not huge on haul videos, but we did get some really great stuff I want to share with you guys so you know what to look for when you're out Doing your shopping in your area and give you some ideas of what you could look for that you might really Find you like using I had a really good time I always like going to las vegas and I love it there Well, I hope your doctor visit goes well and you know, it'll be on youtube later I'm not sure yet if we're going to continue with the paint swatches if we're going to just paint a picture We may just paint a picture and then continue with the swatches next week Because I do have more paint to swatch and spectrum noir If you didn't see me on social media right before I left vegas literally the day before I left I got all these from them So we're going to do a review. I already had some spectrum noir markers. So we're going to do a review of them These are their aqua markers so That'll be coming up soon And I yeah my desk is it I said that already you denied my desk is a disaster I also got some molds while I was in vegas and I'll be trying Ann Williamson, Nancy vasting and a few other people have done the modeling paste Like lace things from these and I got a few molds Cindy udder and I both got molds while we were in vegas. So we will be I will be trying that in fact I may go ahead and Put some in these today and because I want to let them dry for a couple days And maybe wednesday will pull them out and see what happens I have a couple of different kinds of modeling paste. So I know Ann Williamson used deco art I have golden too. So i'm not sure which one's going to be better But yeah, if any of you out there have an ipad 2 and you'd like a case with a smart cover Like I said, I've got the purple one. I've got this one with the pink cover And then I've got a blue cover um So pm me Because I don't know what I'm going to do with them now. I have an air 2 now.  Don't forget to do the most important thing besides look for fun stuff to take apart And start a chunky bits box And definitely, you know, these chunky bits will be coming up in future projects Like I said, I want to take the smash pennies that I put in here and make probably the poker chips That I put in here and along with some of the other parts and I think I want to start making some journal charms and stuff. So Look for that to come in future projects But while you're out looking for things to take apart Please take precautions Make sure you have eye protection on make sure the item is unplugged that you take the batteries out If there are batteries in it first thing that you dispose of anything like the batteries or other hazardous waste You may come across properly And that you don't hurt yourself keep your fingers out of the way I'm in central california Um, I'm near I'm an hour south of san francisco I'm in san jose california And make sure you have the fan, you know permission if you know, don't go grabbing the remote out of the family room and disassembling it Or the computer off the computer desk. I think your husband might have or a partner may have an issue with that If you try to do that, I don't think it's going to go over well I really don't I did get a couple of more molds Let's see We went to hobby lobby in las vegas which we didn't have to do because um, you know, we have that here, but That's okay. So I got these two cake molds And then cindy, um shared these with me were really big molds and she shared these bits with me It was a blast Um, that's a good question and we're here to chat so we can do that as long as you want so um My favorite Okay, so that's that's a complicated question. So if you're talking about my favorite, um Arts and craft store Hobby lobby in morgan hill. There is one more hobby lobby like in dublin or something. I think but I live near the morgan hill store 20 minutes 15 20 minutes in traffic. So hobby lobby um why they have the best selection of Mixed media and fine art supplies Plus I can breathe in the store um, they don't have lots of potpourri or other things that make me wheeze Um, and they have great ventilation. So I don't have to wear a mask in the store Um, so that's my favorite arts and crafts store We do have michaels very close by in johans and I will go into them if i'm looking for something specific I know they have there but Usually my my stop is hobby lobby now my favorite fine art store If i'm going to stay closer to home Is lens art in santa cruz l enz They've been in business since I think 1969 They remind me very much of a store that we went into when we were in um, las vegas called desert art supply um, it's the mom and pop place stuff to the gills with um, arts and crafts art supplies anything that you could possibly think of lens art has And desert art in las vegas is the same thing now lens art only has one location in santa cruz When we were at desert art supply We heard from the owner at the one store that we went to that they have a second location I didn't find out where that was but i'm going to be the next time I go i'm going to find out where it is i'm going to go there um We do have university art in san jose They don't have as big a selection as lens art of things I prefer lens art There is palace art and office supply in santa cruz. It's actually down the street from lens art That's a nice place to go. It's not strictly an art supply store, but I do like it If you want to drive into san francisco Then of course you're going to be up near daizo and there's some really big ones in san francisco So go there. It's not an art supply store, but go there um They also have dick blick you tricked and Flacks art art supply Oh good to know michelle that's going to be for the next trip So so there's some really great art supply stores in san francisco if you want to drive up drive up that way I don't do that by myself because I can't stand driving in san francisco So I have to get somebody to drive me or go with friends If you're going to go to san francisco to go art supply shopping Go to scrap Holy cow people scroungers center for reusable art parts In san francisco, it's an art salvage place It is a dirty full warehouse full of art salvage Everything from paint and brushes and stencils to architectural salvage bottles All kind everything you could possibly imagine a mixed media artist might be interested in they have at scrap It's a nonprofit So if you can bring a donation with you and drop stuff off before you bring stuff home home It's one of those places where you fill up your bag or your box and they look at it and go 10 bucks so There are some really great places here to go to My favorite ones are not super close to home santa cruz is about 40 lens arts about 45 minutes from here I usually go to hobby lobby first and hope they have it and then mail order it unless I really Have the time in my schedule to drive over to santa cruz And yeah, las vegas was a blast We had a really fun time Scrap it's if you just if you just google scrap san francisco or scrap sf It's going to pop up. They have a website I can't recommend them enough the people there are super nice And it is the most interesting art salvage place. You'll probably ever go to I do know there is another similar business in berkeley I don't ever remember what the name of it is Um, but there is one It may pop out if you google art salvage pop up Um, but scrap is my favorite Yeah, michelle michelle breaking her tailbone.  That's gonna air But yeah, michelle look at my look at my chunky art bits box I put my poker chips in here And my smash pennies Just from stuff that I had laying around the desk. I made the husband promise. He wouldn't throw out while I was gone I would recommend it. It's a fabulous place.  They support teachers and students As well as artists and like I said, they're a nonprofit So give them some support. They do have classes there. I've never made it to one yet, but they always look interesting And uh, michelle if you know anybody who has an ipad too that needs a case or a cover You know, I had to buy a new one. You know that already. So I have all these cases now That have no home. I don't think bob would be okay with me putting them on his ipad And my poor ipad's got a plain black cover I even brought home coffee You know hotel coffee is not good for drinking really it tastes gross, but you know what it's good for making coffee ink Yeah, I'm I think I might michelle. I'll ask jerry if it's okay first So you can take this coffee from you know bad hotel room coffee put put it into a saucepan with some water and let it simmer And reduce down to by a third or two a half and then strain out the coffee grounds and Put it into a spray bottle Or a dropper bottle with a little bit of glycerin and you have a good coffee colored Um dye or ink You're welcome genesis. No problem All right. I think that's it for now. I gotta try to clean up some more of this mess Does anybody have any questions? I think I'm going to try some of these I'll let you know how it goes maybe on watercolor wednesday if I do them today. They should be dry for by then to pull off If you haven't seen ann williamson's uh video on doing these modeling paste molds yet over um Her channel, I recommend you go over there. I think it's just ann williamson or annalease creates Um, she did this recently. So I think I recommend you go take a look at it And somewhere around here. I have more of those molds.  I'm in trouble Little known fact my parents live in rochester washington Halfway between portland and seattle Who doesn't love to go to portland to go to pal's books and voodoo doughnuts And seattle of course is the home of daniel smith You are going to be staying a couple of days on the way home michelle. I might have to We're gonna stay up there for a couple days and visit with the parents And I already made my husband promise we could do some things that go to the daniel smith's store So we're gonna have to All right, that's it for today you guys. I am going to make my modeling paste molds I'm going to simmer up some travel coffee ink And Maybe try to put some stuff away I don't know. I'm kind of wanting to do projects with the stuff as I go that it's on that side of the desk And do a project then put it away and do a product that way I can sort of Share it with you all without doing a haul video because I really detest haul videos You all have a great day. Don't forget the most important thing Do something nice for yourself because you deserve it. All right I will talk to you all later. Have a great day Have a great week if I don't talk to you before the weekend and I will talk to you later I'm gonna go look for more bits to take apart Out in the garage where the broken stuff is All right, I'll talk to you all later. Bye


One in a hundred thousand will be left with major brain Damages as a result of measles infection. Yep, the exact same thing is happening with the placebo effect So again, there are two ways of being right and two ways of being wrong for possible outcomes that can happen So most homeopathic remedies are labeled 30 C, which means one part active ingredient to 100 to the power 30 parts water Now that's all of the atoms in the entire solar system


All right, I wonder if people are looking to see why we don't see this morning. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. Do you think the Israelis are going to enter Beirut? No, no questions. Good. A lot of fighting there today, sir. I know. This is a great concern to us. I'm glad there's a reason why we started this.


20 seconds. 20 second live goes on the mat. Now, 5, 2, we call them up. Up by 2. Up by 2. Up by 2. Up by 2. 3, 2, 1, go. Pop the bottom. 1 and 4. 1 is down, you are tied. 20 seconds to go. This is your national finals. Okay, set. 2, 1, go. Dave's learned how to get the cranks. Over and over again. Stay down. Alright. 2 and 3. 2, you are down. You are trailing. 3, 2, 1, go. Hi, it's your university here. Thanks for being here. Seconds to go. Down by 2. Up in front of you. 2 and 4. 2 is down. You are up by 2 with a saw. You are up by 2 with a saw. 5, 3, 2, 1, go. Yeah, win a score. Begin tough. You're tied. 20 seconds to go. National finals. You are tied. 20 seconds to go. 2 and 1. 3, 2, 1, go. Time's up. Hurry. Good pressure. Nice position. 5 seconds. 5 seconds to go. And we have 3 and 4 with a saw. 3, you are down by jeans. 20 seconds to go. 3, 2, 1, go. 3, 2, 1, go Time's up. 3 and 1. 3, you are up. 3, 2, 1, go. The saw. The sword. Keep trembling. Three. Three and two. Thank you. Now it's full. It's full. Time. Seconds goes. National virus. Set. Three, two, one, go. Five, two, four. Four, you are down. One, go.