Yes. Thank you, Ms. Mohsen. Good evening to our group and welcome also to any of our community members who may be logging in on this meeting. We are calling this meeting to order at 532 p.m. on April 7th, 2021. We have a quorum and I'd like to quickly go to our roll call, if you please. Mr. Vernon Jones. Here. Welcome, Ms. Owen. Here. Ms. Walker. Here. Mr. Cage. Here. Welcome everybody, thank you. And thank you, Mr. Backelman and Ms. Mohsen always for being here with your busy schedules. We appreciate your attendance and support. I'm just gonna go forward with our first order of business, which is to approve the minutes of the 2017-21 and 3-24-21 meetings, which were given to us last week and we've had time to review those. And I'd like to bring that forward for approval in doing so. In doing so, I'd like to start the discussion by first moving to the approval of the minutes of the 17th and if someone would second that, then I'll entertain any questions. Can you guys see them? Yeah. Okay. So I'd like to move that we approve the minutes of the 17th of February. I'd welcome. Second, thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. Any questions, comments, discussions on those minutes or any of our members? Welcome, Ms. Pat. Hi, everyone. How are you? Good. Not hearing any comments. I'd like to move that we approve the minutes of the 17th. May I hear a second? I second that. Thank you, Ms. Owen. All those in favor, just raise your hand. Thank you. The minutes of the 17th have been approved. Now we'll go to the minutes of March 24th. I'd like to move that those minutes also be approved. May I hear a second? May I hear a second please for the purpose of discussion? I second. Thank you, Mr. Cage. The motion to approve has been moved and seconded. Any comments, questions on those set of minutes from our group? Welcome, Ms. Ferrara. Hello. Okay, seeing no comments or contributions at this time, I'd like to move that we approve the minutes of March 24th, 2021. May I hear a second? Seconded. Thank you, Ms. Ferrara. All those in favor, just raise your hand so I can see you. Thank you very much. Okay, those minutes have been approved. Thank you all very much. Our meeting today is going to, in addition to the approval of the minutes we just did, I'm going to open it up to public comment in a moment. And as always, we welcome those in attendance to offer their comments to the community safety working group as you see fit. And we usually reserve about 15 minutes for that. It seems to be sufficient for those comments from folks. In addition, I would like to open a moment for our community safety working group to before entering our action and discussion items to comment on any things that are on their mind coming into the meeting or in the experiences since the last meeting that they want to share that informs our work. And then we're going into two items on our agenda. One being the weekly discussion with our consultant, seven generations movement collective who are here weekly with us to give an update on their progress and we have an interaction certainly around that as our work continues. And then we're going to continue our discussion on the topic of a community of responders. We started that discussion a while back several meetings ago and we're going a little deeper today into delving into some of the responses to questions that we've created within a particular grid and framework. So hopefully we will spend a bulk of our time on that particular topic. After that, certainly we have our upcoming events, as usual, we'll set our next meeting date. And if there are any topics that haven't become before the chair within 48 hours of this meeting, we will bring those up at that time and then we'll move to adjourn. So given that as our meeting, I'd like to just move forward into public comment and Ms. Moyston, please, if you're able to recognize any folks in our attendee list who would like to speak, we'll welcome that at this time. Yes, good afternoon. My name is Vincent O'Connor and if it's appropriate, at this occasion, I'd like to make a few comments. It is. Okay, thank you. First, about the trial of former officer Slovan in Minneapolis. I wouldn't ask the committee to focus on any particular aspect of that trial, but on the extraordinary amount of public resources that has gone into the effort to attempt to convict this individual police officer of the crime which seems pretty much everyone who's used the thing believes he committed. And therein I think lies a serious problem because the fact that the effort has been so extraordinary and well-funded indicates what the problem is. That we have in achieving accountability. The second comment has to do with the need to create an entirely new department, as I've said before, with a civilian had having an armed and an unarmed component of public safety and or community safety. And my concern remains that under the current contractual relationship that the town of Amherst has with the police union, which is not an extraordinary contract. I'm sure it mirrors many things that are in many contracts for police unions all over the country. But it is a serious problem to have the disciplinary procedures that involve such individuals be subject to collective bargaining and really unchangeable unless the department itself is abolished and a new department is established with new rules and the town takes a certain position in terms of disciplinary activities that will ensure that a repetition of some of the some of the complained of activities by the public in Amherst are not repeated. And I have plenty of stories, but I'm not going to tell them. But I think the committee has heard enough and some of the members of the committee have experienced enough to know that there needs to be a change in the disciplinary procedures in such a way that it is not a collective bargaining process. But the re-establishment of a new department with new rules. Anyway, and I would just encourage the members of the committee to go to the podcasts of WHMP, Bill Newman last Friday interviewed three members of the Northampton committee, which is established for similar purposes as this committee. And I thought that their comments were very informative and useful, and I would encourage the members of this working group to go to that podcast and listen to what the Northampton members had to say. So thank you very much. Are there other comments, Ms. Moyston? No, other hands are raised at this time. Thank you. I respectfully move forward and thank our community member for that particular contribution and continue to continue to encourage all other members of our community to participate in our deliberations as a community safety working group. Welcome, Ms. Bowen to see you on the screen as we were waiting. We were listening to the public comment. Welcome. And I'd like to now just take a moment and check in with our group as a whole to see if any members have any reports for us that they'd like to share at this time. Mr. Vernon Jones. Just to let you know that Ms. Pat and I wrote to the executive directors of both the Chamber of Commerce and the bid in Amherst and invited them to meet with us to share thoughts they had about the police in Amherst and their need and their interest in needs. We've gotten a positive response back from one of them and we're waiting to hear from the other one. Thank you. Thank you very much. Both of you for your ongoing work. Others. Ms. Ferreira. Yeah, just a quick comment. Obviously, I think I know we're all, you know, witnessing the trial that's going on right now and, you know, of course as the community member, Mr. Vince O'Connor already spoke about, you know, just the tremendous resources going into it and the fact that, again, it just seems like George Floyd is on trial at times, close to the other way around. But also I was reminded again, just because of the reading that we do and something came across about, I guess there was a lawsuit that just came in California, California, obviously not Massachusetts in California in terms of a teen who was beaten excessively by the police. This happened, I guess, December 30th, 2020. This teen is 17 years old, you know, black male. And they're filing a lawsuit against the police department there. You know, obviously I have a 17 year old, you know, just again, just for another reminder about, you know, the work that we're doing and how important it is and critical it is at this point in time. Thank you, Ms. Farera. Let's see here, I'm moving some things around on my screen again here. Any other comments? Sorry if there's any hand raised at that point, I was trying to detox my environment here. It's still pretty busy. Thank you, Ms. Farera. If there are no others, I did have one comment I wanted to make before we go forward and it's just a, it's a complimentary thing as well as an acknowledgement. I did notice and I think some of you may have done the same that are one of our consultants, Dr. Shabazz along with her colleagues recently won an award from the National Association for Multiethnicity and Communications in the New England chapter. And so just as, you know, we're reading around, we read a lot of things that are not always good news, but I just wanted to share that because I think it also shows the depth and breadth of not only who we're working with, but what they are doing. And she's also joined certainly by, by her husband and partner, Dr. Amokar Shabazz. So I just wanted to congratulate them on their, on their award, on their award. And you know, hopefully Dr. Shabazz, you may say something about that in your presentation. So we're all appreciate you. Thank you very much. And any other comments? I do have one other thing, but I'll see if there's any other comments. Tashina has her hand raised. Okay. I don't see the hand. That's the thing. Yeah. Okay. Ms. Bowman. There she is. Yeah. All right. Hold on. Okay. You can hear me now. Yes. All right. So I have a, I actually have a question for, it's for Mr. Backelman. I want to, um, Benji, I have, stop, please. Okay. I am, I am questioned. Oh, how do I say this? I would like you to explain, like I want, I watched the presentation to the, the town committee, um, regarding our group. And I really walked away with it, with a, with a, with kind of a bad feeling. And I don't feel, I like, I feel like you're being wishy-washy and you're going back and forth between these two committees and you're not giving really anybody an answer. It feels like you're giving people what they want to hear. And I really want you to explain like the conversation that you had with the, the, the committee on Monday. Um, yeah, I just want you to, I want to, I want a deeper explanation. Cause I don't read this point right now. I just, I'm very skeptical, skeptical about, um, what you're doing and whether or not you actually really support this group. Thank you. Miss phone. I just, I, um, as this is our, just our opening comment, I'd like to, uh, keep that present that, that question, Miss, uh, Mr. Backelman. Um, uh, if you have a brief answer for it now, that's fine. If not, I'd like to, uh, move us forward into our agenda because we have our folks coming in to present and they have about a half an hour. But, uh, that's a question to answer for. Yeah. Cause I want to be sure that we have it. I really feel like I, I go back to the question as why, as to why am I here? I understand. I feel like before I go forward, like before I go forward, I really need to have this answered because what I heard and when I listened to it was that you weren't planning to put through things that we were, we were going to suggest that you weren't going to put. And I, and what I want to quote is that you weren't going to put everything through. So what does that mean? You get to pick and choose what gets put through and what doesn't get put through.  Like it just, it seems like there's this pattern here where you're telling us, you're like, yeah, we have this group, but we're not really going to do anything about it, but we're going to try to look good by having this, you know, all this work done. It, I have, it just doesn't feel right to me. Understood. And I, and I think we, you know, we can, we can try to make room for that, Mr. Bach, but I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question. I think that's a good question in terms of answering. I, you know, As this is a question coming from the committee, that's important to one of our committee members. If you might want to do a prelude answer right now, fine. But then we can go back to it in the body of our work. Because we, you know, we have a set thing that we're doing also. That's going to be taking a lot of our time. And they focus on some of what, what you, what you're thinking about. Sure. So can you hear me? Okay. Yes. Okay. So I have a role as the town manager. This is an executive responsibility. This group was formed as an advisory committee to the town manager. It doesn't mean that I support what I have. I'm not in a supportive role and hear supportive view in terms of, you know, staff support. So you can do the work that you feel is important. Then you provide a body of. You can do it. You can do it. You can do it. I think that's a good piece of advice. I would say that advice to me as town manager. And then I have to make an independent judgment about what I present to the town council. You also will be presenting your full. Presentation to the town council. I hope that you'll be willing to do that. So yeah, I think what I was saying is that. I have to make a judgment as an independent executive for the town that may or may not be the same as what the working committee is doing. I think that's a good piece of advice. I think that's a good piece of advice. And then we get into the body of our work today. We are going to be talking about. A couple of things. One. The work we're doing around crest. And there, there will be certainly some recommendations coming out of that. And also we're going to be hearing from our. Our consultant group who are coming back to us with updates and reports. And I just want to remind everyone, I just want to make sure that. Present a compelling. And. Meaningful. And effective proposal. For programs and budgets to the town manager. So we have a huge charge before us. And we have to. Make sure we get that. On your desk. Mr. Towne manager. And so that you can be able to fully see where we're trying to go as a group. That's not lose that thought and thank you for your response. And I would like to move forward and invite our, our consultant group. Into the, into the picture here into the meeting. And I want to preface their entry. In addition to saying welcome to them all. For agreeing to. About a half an hour. And I just want to make sure that we have. Maybe 32 minutes if they need it. I did have a communication with Dr. Shabazz. And the group does know that we have a. A lot on our agenda today to discuss about. Crest. So I appreciate their willingness to flex on this. And also appreciate their willingness to. To come in and report to us on a weekly basis. The last thing I want to say is I want to. Take this afternoon. The email. About what's going on with North Hampton. And that resource. So, you know, thank you. For that. Going forward. So. It's moist and we're all in, right? Yes. I'd like to acknowledge then Dr. Shabazz. And of the seven generations. Movement collective and turn it over to them for their update. Thank you for being here. Hello. Hi. Hi. Okay. We're not on screen. That's, that's fine. We just want to listen to us. Hello, everyone. You know, we are just to kind of preface.  Of watching what is going on on the national stage, but I just want to acknowledge that we are doing this work in the community where. We heart are, you know, listening to these narratives about policing in our own community. I just want to commend the seven gen group and doing this work. Under. Under that emotional. Um, time of, of really a crisis of where we're trying to figure out. Um, what. Uh, policing and being policed, right? Within our communities. Cause we, we're people of color. We're part of the marginalized communities, many of us. So, um, I totally, uh, empathize and, uh, and with you. I just want to, um, I just want to, um, I just want to, um, As we go through this nationally, uh, we all are at seven Jen. Um, with that said, um, before we begin, I want to just ask about this chamber meeting. And since there'll be two of you from what I understand that we'll have this meeting. If it won't be recorded, could one of the seven Jen sit in to simply listen, um, to talk about what they're envisioning, uh, or not envisioning in terms of policing. So, uh, If that's a possibility. Um, and then I want to, um, Make sure that within our discussions. Um, we are adhering to our timelines and things like that. So we're first going to hear from our part B. I'm sorry, our part A group. Uh, Katie, Sanji, you're here as well. Thank you so much. So Sanji and Katie. We'll talk a little bit about where they are with part A. And then Terry will talk a little bit about where we are with part B. Again, we're trying to make this very concise, uh, and within the 30 minute timeframe, because I know you all have a lot on your plate for tonight. Um, and then lastly, I want to support to Sheena and the CSWG. In, um, these conversations with the town, because like we value your work, and I know we were hired to do a job, the people in the community value your work. And so, um, it's important to ask these very critical questions around accountability. So thank you very much. Uh, Katie and Sanji. Thank you, Dr. Shabazz. Um, I will start. Um, and then I invite Dr. Johnson Anderson to, um, pipe up pipe in whenever, um, I just, I just want to say that in making decisions in my own life, I always assess what I can bring to the table and, um, um, my position in various things. Um, coming into this work, I'm very familiar with the fact that I am a white researcher, um, doing work with the BIPOC community. Um, and I have done a lot of exploration around looking at my identity in, uh, race related research. It is, um, a responsibility of mine as a white researcher to make sure that the people who are involved in this research end up being represented and end up, um, experiencing justice. I'm going to present, um, a brief PowerPoint presentation. It is going to show you some of the images from the trial that people are referencing. It's a hot topic in our nation, obviously. Um, and that's kind of our centering. It's where we are right now in terms of a nation, but there was a lot of parallels that came up with our most recent, um, meeting with the community ambassadors just this past Monday and talking with them about their experiences doing outreach. Um, I'm a little bit shaky because I'm emotional around this work.  Um, they're just of people who we've might have seen on, you know, television or in the news if we've been following the, um, the trial. So these are images from the past week and this idea of having to relive trauma through testimony by testifying, um, on behalf of George Floyd, um, is, is prominent. And we see the emotion that this brings. Um, this is Christopher Martin age 19. He is the storekeeper who, um, you know, thinks back to how he, the guilt he has to live with and the guilt he's had to revisit as a result of him being the storekeeper and, um, noticing that the $20 bill was counterfeit. He lives with the guilt and thinks back like I could have changed it. I could have changed it. Right. And he's asked to relive that as he's, um, testifying. This is Donald Williams, one of the, um, people who witnessed the murder, um, who's noted for saying, I called the police on the police. I called the police on the police. We have various minors. Who have had to testify these past few weeks who were, um, stripped of their childhood in the moment, but are asked again to. Recollect and share their experiences. Of the trauma they experienced and continue to experience. In the past few weeks, Donald Williams, a nine year old girl, uh, Darnella Frazier lives with the trauma on a daily basis. You know, apologizing and apologizing to George Floyd for not doing more and not physically interacting and not saving his life. She was the person who documented. So we see that George Floyd was not the only victim. He was also the victim of the trauma. He was also the victim of the trauma in the community. Both directly by police, but the community members as well through that trickle effect. Of what policing does to their community, right? These. Children will not have. A life that. A child without that trauma will experience, right? A child without that trauma will experience, right? A child without that trauma will experience, right? A child without that trauma will experience, right? The standards, the onlookers, every, everyone who was part of that community and it extends, you know, miles and miles, um, nationwide, you know, it's, it's. We're not there, but. You know, people feel it. And, um. I know just in speaking with people locally, it's just as traumatizing despite our distance. So we have to work together to sort of. Enter the impact that reliving trauma. Can really do. So on Monday, we, um. Had our final meeting, final formalized meeting with our six community ambassadors. Just this past Monday. And we have a lot of data to go through and I'm only going to share a snippet of not even the data from the community members per se, but just a little snippet of what we talked about on Monday with the community ambassadors. And the theme that was talked about was the difficulty in recruiting participants. Now I want to preface this by saying, our ambassadors have done a tremendous work, and they have reached, you know, their quota if we want to put a quota word on it, they have done their work, you know, in this past week they've reached out to so many people. And I'll get into that. But it was not without difficulty and one of the themes or one of one of a strong sense of feedback that they provided was the fear that people have just in talking about this and talking about their experiences with the police. And I think this is summarized by someone who said, can I do the interview after I get my citizenship. This was a community member who one of the ambassadors had reached out to in hoping that, you know, they would share their story. We don't know how long it is until they get their citizenship, we don't know if that's next week or three years from now, but that just shows a little bit of, or it demonstrates the fear that people have, and that's just one one quote that shows that but this kept coming through, right in various fashions. The recruitment process one of the questions we asked our community ambassadors was in order to, you know, interview your seven people, how many people did you need to reach out to.  But we had upwards of some people needing to reach out to 17 people, which means 10 people said no to talking about their experiences with the police. Some people went as far as interviewing, right. We had one community ambassador report that, you know, the day of the interview they were very open, they were very transparent they shared these stories. But the next day they came to me and they, they posture differently they position themselves differently and they essentially said can I take that back. And we need to discredit that particular interview because it's no longer, you know, consented by the participant. But something happened between the time that they talked about it, and then reflecting on talking about it and thinking wait a minute, is this worth it, or am I more at risk for talking. A community ambassador kind of summarized it by by saying, we shouldn't have this fear of talking. Right. There shouldn't even be an issue, people should be able to to share their stories and feel like, you know, their stories won't, they won't be retaliated by just sharing their stories which is why we're being so vigilant about keeping people anonymous and protecting them.  And now I see it as my responsibility. And I would imagine my colleagues do as well, doing the research on this topic. It's our job to do justice to this to this work, and making sure that the trauma, these participants had to relive trauma, right by sharing their stories, and they put themselves out there. And the question is, for what, right, which is why it's our responsibility and which is why, you know, I want to support miss miss Bowman in, you know, what she brought up. But we can't do more disservice to this group, who has already been traumatized, right, as the stories, you know, as a lot of the data will show based on what the fear factor already shows. We need to support these initiatives, whatever they, you know, whatever is presented, we need to support this community. We need to have money in the budget, right, there's always money in the budget, it's a matter of how we choose to spend the money in the budget, and what our priorities are. And so I'm inviting, you know, the community, the CSWG members, the town manager, town council members, you know, to commit to making this change. And honestly, at this point, we need to value and hold up the stories that were shared with us, and make change accordingly, because if not, we're just re traumatizing and re victimizing the people who shared their stories. And I will. So Sanji, the floor if you have things to add Sanji. Thank you, Katie. I just wanted to add to that the I am one of those persons who has become greatly re traumatized by having to experience again and I avoid it as much as I can, listening to the, the trial of George Floyd. And would like for the CSWG certainly the our town manager and others to appreciate that the, the research that we're doing this work has us kind of walking a tightrope of at one at once and together being targeted. By the experiences of with our police and being the ones to, to write about it to, to research it to report on it. And so, you know, as Katie mentioned, extracting these stories from community members has been for many of them are very painful and re traumatizing experience. These stories represent people's lives. These stories represent the, the, the, the idea that people have about themselves and in the community ambassadors recounting of speaking with community members about their experience. And another of the prevailing themes that that came up is about the fear that community members generally have for the police, and the fact that they also want to the fact that they are not seen, or their humanity is not recognized. In a way that that that that's, they are seen as members of the community who are valuable, who are worthy of respect, and, and should be treated as such. And so, in order to extract again these stories we have had to establish rapport with these people and trust. And we certainly would not like to sit with the community members establishing rapport with them, and saying to them that we are doing this with the view to bringing about meaningful change that they have chosen to become re traumatized. And then to no avail so so many of them are very worried about that. And we want to present that to you to your group, so that you are aware of where community members thoughts are regarding actually putting themselves up in this way. And seeing their stories out there and taking this kind of risk. We would like for the group and those who are in the seat of the decision makers to appreciate that, and not just to appreciate it but to seek to do something meaningful about it. This is not where we are is not a good place in our nation. And on the level of the town, trying to address an issue. We would just want to encourage you to, to be courageous about what has to be done. The community members have been really, really, they have suffered. And, and you will hear more about this when we are able to put forth a formal report to you but just want you to know from the, at the very outset that this is what we are getting. Even the people collecting the stories it has been a re traumatizing experience for them, because it has brought up for them, many of the, their own experiences, even things that they thought that they had forgotten about came roaring to the surface. And so we want to present that to you so that you are aware that as we delve deeper into the data and what it will yield. These are the things that we see coming to the surface already. Thank you. Thank you, Sanji and Katie in respect of your, your time. I know Terry had something to present, but I'm going to ask Terry is that something if they need to move on that you can write up a short synopsis and send it to the group. Yes, I could do that. Thank you. I think it was important to hear, you know, fresh out of the group for part a what they've been doing that was obviously very important and very timely so again Sanji and Katie, because you're in the midst of this thank you so much. So Paul, I'm going to yield to you all because I know we have taken up quite a bit of time but I thought it was important and we all thought it was important that you understand what we have thus far, and what the process was like. Thank you Dr. Chappaz and I do want to take some liberty. I know I asked for 30 minutes and thank you so much you and the, and the consultant collective for agreeing to that. I want to respect Terry Mullins time. I did show up here as well. I think that the group would welcome your voice in this in advance of anything you want to send this afterward. But I would, I would, and I think I'm speaking on behalf of the group I'd love to hear what you have to offer. This work is important. And I don't want to have you come on screen and spend your time here without hearing your voice and what you may have to offer right now so please do so and then we'll move on from there and thank you Dr. Shabazz. Thank you Dr. Johnson Anderson for coming with this information and it's extremely important for us to hear as a group. So, so Terry. Thank you very much, Mr. Riley and personally, I am always happy to yield time to these stories. I would have gladly sat and waited for more conversation at the beginning to so just my update is to remind you we're looking at for services, youth services peer specialist services community responder services and police review boards. Thank you Dr. Shabazz presented last time. And we're looking at them specifically with the idea of what it would look like for the town of Amherst to do that so part of our goal is to look at the budget is to look at the financial decisions and is to try to help the CSWG. And the town and a whole understand kind of where things might be able to change and what restructuring might need to happen if some of these services seem suggestible so at after a deep dive into youth services and peer specialist models. So things like youth programming, potentially longer school days is something that comes up a lot. Basically supervision, and also culturally sensitive supervision. There, we've been, I've been reading some studies that show even therapy based on cultural differences and respectful cultural differences can actually have a lot of bigger impact because of that nature so combining that with youth services and specializations being also very well founded and backed up. So we can see a possible model to think about police review boards are generally less effective, even those with subpoena power and even those that are as strong as the review board can fire a chief of police with just don't seem to lower. I don't want to use the word perceptions of injustices but I'm going to say injustice that's kind of my reading of the of the research and they don't seem as effective as one might have originally hoped, but we can. We'll go through and and talk about what that would look like for Amherst with the current contracts and things of that nature. And just overall other communities responder models which I'm excited to hear you talk about later seems to have promising money returns in terms of rerouting calls and can be more effective we are looking to kind of do they produce the same harms that we hear about in the police are they actually present preventing those harms kind of like what is the the goal of a change like are we kind of how to frame it. And then basically an overall theme in the services that we are viewing is an initial investment will be necessary, and there will be some restructuring necessary we're hoping to get into some of the details on that in the report. And then another big theme is some continued evaluation and continued support over time should should also be baked into any changes made. And I just want to thank the CSWG for for all the work that you're doing and, and just honestly the. I don't know, I'm just always so happy to be in your presence so thank you all and yeah, let me know if you have any questions and I'll send that report. Thank you, Terry. Oh, okay. I'm sorry, Dr. Dr. Shabazz. Terry needs to know how Terry has done a lot of our tech work as well and just a really amazing human being so please. That's why I invited Terry into this conversation I wasn't going to have him just run off into the evening with anything. We're going to be in here with this fated breath waiting to hear from I appreciate that Paul one last thing Terry and I know you you kind of hinted at it but I think it's important to to bring to this group. One of the things that we've been looking at with Part B is that what is the intentionality, I guess in terms of the research as we look at policing and the shifting of resources into alternative model. Models of public safety, let's say of community safety. Is it for the police to, and it has more to do with the conversation around community policing. Is it the police to be more in the community, or is it for the community to take up some of the policing. And with both of those kind of ideological directions, there are problems and of course, pluses and so I don't know if that conversation has been fully fleshed out by your group, but it does pertain to the different models that we're looking at having police in the community, right, and what that looks like to have them more part of the community as police, as opposed to people in the community and social services within the community to take up some of that community safety, public safety role. So that's that's something, you know, I don't know where you all want to deposit that within your conversations but these are things as we look at these models. We keep coming back to you. Thank you, Dr. Shabazz and thank you, all of you for on on the the seven generations movement collective for your, your work. I do have a question that I want to just put out there but I really don't want an answer right now because we have to enter into our discussions right now. But I'd like you for the next meeting that we have. If you can give us a sense to how I can just ask one question before I say this are your ambassadors by pop people. My question for you to respond to next meeting would be, how are you supporting by pop people. How are you supporting these ambassadors in doing this work, because we can't, we cannot assume that they are not being re traumatized in some ways by even asking the questions that are going on and we have to have that, that kind of support available to them. It's not a quiz question. It's just like, if you thought about it, what's your thinking on it. How can we work together to support those folks who are doing the work for us. And that's just to put it in our agenda for you. Well, just real quick, long term, I think it is something we can put into the agenda and talk about in the short term, we did, we have someone on contract and I think I mentioned that last week. Yes, as a therapist of mental health professional to be able to call on within this period of time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all for joining us tonight and I'm sure if we have some questions from out of our discussion. We'll collect those and forward them to you and Dr Shabazz as you and I are communicating during the week as point people on this and keeping this moistened in the loop, we will certainly make sure that the group is aware of our conversations as well. Yeah, Miss Ferrara before we move on. Thank you. I mean, I just wanted to just kind of put it out there too in terms of things is that, you know, just for the seven generations for them to, I'm sure they might be aware of this that we're obviously looking at very quickly. Coming to that time to share information with the town manager in terms of the budget because the budget hasn't been by May 1. And just to kind of keep because I know you all had kind of mentioned that in terms of deadlines and things like that.  So I think for the next meeting to kind of keep, you know, that in mind to kind of share with us, whatever is more pressing because we're going to be making those decisions. Very. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. So, thank you all. We're all back together. I'm going to move quickly to this next piece that we have about our press discussion and this voice and are you able to put that document up that was created by Ms. Rara and me for the group. Are you able to see it. I have lots of screens open. Hold on. So sorry. Mr. Mr. Wiley walk or has our hand up. Wow. Okay. Yeah, I've got, I've got multiple spoons. I'm sorry, Miss Walker. I just, it's hard to see that without faces. I apologize. Thank you, Miss Walker. Go ahead. Thank you. Sorry. Um, I just wanted to bring the conversation back as possible to, um, to Sheena's prior comment. I know that we have a lot of work to do tonight, but I think that getting some more clarification is imperative to our work. I also intended the town council meeting and came out of it very unclear as to our positionality as a group. And I, too, heard Mr. Bachman state that he did not intend to implement all of our recommendations within this fiscal budget. And so I just want to know, like, I need more clarity as what as to what that actually means. I think before moving forward at all, because I think that that really will frame what, which track we take moving forward. I also heard, because like I stated before, this is very new to me dealing with the town budget, but I did also hear one of the town council members state that they don't have the ability to raise funds in any particular budget area, but they do have the ability to reduce it. And so the only person who has the ability to set the precedent for what our funds will be is Mr. Bachman and he will set that. And so like he's here in this meeting with us now and the budget is coming out soon. So I think that he hopefully and probably has some idea in his mind as to what the precedent will be that he will set for them to decide upon. And I think that that information is imperative to our work. Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Walker. And Ms. Pat. I cannot agree with her that we should let some discuss this first before we move forward to the press. I know, you know, it's important that for me I really want to know Mr. Bachman what you're thinking in terms of what you think you'd be recommending to the council because from what Ms. Tashina raised, I really do not want to waste my time if some of our proposals are not going to make it to the town council. I need to know now. Well, I'd like to offer the group to consider at this point is one, I'd like to invite Mr. Bachman if you were able to stay with us during this conversation. But I want to go back to our last meeting. We said we wanted to have this conversation about community responder and community responder models. We said we wanted to have this conversation as a way of beginning to create a proposal that might be something concrete for the town and through Mr. Bachman to consider. I mean, we said that people on our group did respond in writing, some did not respond in writing because they felt the venue was would be better if it was in a dialogue format and discussion format so we set it up for that. I want to compel the group to think about this very seriously. One of the challenges is to come up with recommendations to the town manager that would impact influence and direct the budget to do certain things. And it's our responsibility to send the message. I think if we don't send the message, then we're floating in air, I'm just, I'm just telling you as of this my own opinion from experience with the town and other venues, but also we have the capacity, and we have the knowledge and we have the expertise to create something. I think if we go on the premise that we have to hear what other people are going to say about what we might do. I think we're, I think it's backwards. I think we should take charge of our message. We should take charge of what we want to say that's our job. I think we ought to create something that send a very clear message to the town about what's important. And then give it to the town manager.  And I said this before. And he said our, you know, you wanted to find out where the, where the priorities are in the town or any organization, you follow the money. And I think if we come up with something that's going to be concrete and meaningful. And in collaboration with our consultants that we've hired we asked for the support we're getting it. I don't want to lose sight of what our mission and charges here to send that forward. That's, that's my comment on it. I see hands are up. I wanted, you know, I'll entertain those comments but I just don't want us to get lost in the weeds here. Even though I'm not dismissing certain of, you know, people, people appointed they want to hear from Mr. Bachman and certainly Mr. Bachman you can respond. But I want to help us keep our focus. I don't know who had the hand up first I think it may have been Ms. Walker, and then Ms. Ms. Ferreira. Is that correct. Ms. Walker. Yes, thank you, Mr. Wiley. I just wanted to say I'm still very invested in this work. It's not that I'm invested in this work but I think that that is the reason why I want an answer to this question because I do still intend to, you know, to the charge that I signed up for and to continue to finish my work. But I also want to know realistically what to expect out of the work because I'm putting in a lot of work as is everybody else. And, and in respect in respect to our consultant group they're also putting in a lot of work and our community members are putting in a lot of work, and everyone's putting in a lot of really hard emotionally draining work into this and I want to know that there is going to be a result, a potential result, and that if we are going to be nickel and dined, we can at least make the most of our nickels and dimes if we can anticipate that that is going to happen. But if we don't even know that that's going to happen and we're going to make this huge robust model that's going to have no funding, then what is the point of that rather than if we know we're only going to have a tiny bit of funding we can figure out what we can do with that money to make change because I just don't see the point if we have somebody who is amongst us right now that can give us a better idea of that, what the point is and not just having that information. Thank you miss Walker. Certainly well heard.  Yeah, I'm looking around did someone else have the hand up after this. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, obviously I understand we have a lot to discuss, you know, but I guess, Mr Wally and the thing is is that people aren't clear in terms of, you know, what the, the, you know, what the process is going to be and I know what you talked about last week. It seems that as if things were resolved but then there was a presentation by Mr Bachman I wasn't there. Miss Bowman was there, and Miss Alicia Walker there and they're confused about what was presented. So I think what we could do is like you know put at least like let's say you know let's take another five minutes five to 10 minutes to kind of get into this you know, and see what Mr Bachman has to say. We can go from there you know I can be the timekeeper so that we can hopefully kind of move move forward from there but I think it's important to have Mr Bachman, you know respond to this because like I said I wasn't there but Miss Bowman and Miss Walker was there. And they have some some questions so we should devote a little bit of time to it. Thank you so much for your and this moment and this Walker, you know, for respect to what you're saying Mr Mr Bachman is still here. I did ask you to stay because I think we could probably get into this and in terms of our particular discussion around press. I'd like to open it up for you to respond to us at this point. You can offer some clarification thank you. Mr Wiley and everyone. Yeah, so what I was, I tried to sit. I had very short time to respond earlier so I respect the questions that this moment was Walker, every, all the all your members are asking because I think it is important questions to answer. Well, I come to these meetings, every one of your meetings because I value the work that you're doing and also because I'm educating myself quite frankly and I need to understand more of what what how you're coming to your conclusion not just the conclusions you're coming to. I don't know the conclusions you're coming to at this point I don't know what the proposals are. So I don't know what to respond to to say, what, if you told me, here's what we want, I can give you an, I can give you some say well okay that I understand what you're asking for let me go back and work on that. But I really don't know where you're headed and I think what you're saying to me is like, well we don't know what to put together because you're not telling me how much, how much money we have, and I think that's sort of the sort of where we are on this. I think we said talk last because I had suggested you say the structure the general structure that you think we should have. And maybe we get a plan to move in that direction maybe we just don't jump all in one budget or maybe we have a, I see North Hampton is sort of doing a sort of implementation plan or strategic plan for how we get to where we need to go. And then the fundamental shift in how the community sees, sees community safety. It's a really important discussion. It's going to be, and I do think it will be a reallocation of resources, and how we move in that direction doesn't just happen really quickly, but it has to happen quickly. That sounds contradictory but it, but it's, you know there are certain constraints that we have as a community within the budget. Now this is a high, it's been identified as a high value for the council. I'm personally invested in making the changes that that I'm hearing, but I need more. I'm listening to you to find out where your direction, what direction you're moving in. So I don't know what you're where you're, where you're settling as a committee. So if that, if you could have that discussion about like here's where we're settling, that would be very instructive to me. And the question just related to that Mr Bachmann, maybe in, in, in support of Ms Ferreira, Ms Bowman, and Ms Walker. Are you able at this point to convey to this to this working group that, let's say, regardless of what proposal we put forward, that there will be a serious and I don't know what else with other edges to put on this response to funding what we are proposing from the town council. I don't know if that's that's an inappropriate question, but I think that's what people are asking if we're going to do this work, and we'll do the work. But if, as we do the work I'm hearing people say well, you know, we build this house and then nobody lives in it. That that's kind of what my, my, my metaphor. But if we build a house is a town council able to tell us that somebody will reside in that house. And in some way, or is that some as a question you can't answer at this point. I know there would, I know what there will be a house built. I think I know we're planning for that I don't know how big your, you guys are coming in and within terms of what is serious seriously. When you say serious commitment I don't know what that means from your perspective. I think that's a serious commitment to me, and then I will go to miss film and a serious commitment to me is taking in all of the information that we've gathered, narratively, and concretely to other forms of data. And our, our, our council and our consulting group that says, this is what we need to, to proceed alternatively in this town to do it. And I think what's what's behind this question is, if it doesn't. If, if the cost of it means right if the cost of it seems prohibitive to the town. And the town is not able to move in that direction. Then I think that's where some of our membership and maybe even some members of our people citizens in our town might say like, we did all this work. And even though we said we needed a the town is not willing to even consider a but it might be me. That's, if I don't know, let me go to miss Bowman because I don't want to occupy that. That's not a question too much as Bowman. So, okay. I feel like at this point you've been to so many meetings to document that you have some idea of what you're going to put towards the budget for this group, even if it's not in finalize you have some idea. And I, for me, it doesn't even matter what, what position that you're in, what matters to me is, are we doing this work for nothing because you're going to throw a scraps left over after everybody else gets what they need. Or are you going to really look at what we're trying to do, even if it's uncomfortable for you, and actually go forward and recommend the things that that are going to come down as to being recommended because the research is being done behind it. And the information is being done from be has been gotten from the community members about what they are needing. They're specifically asking their town to, to provide them with a necessary thing to make a, the community that is absolutely underrepresented in the town government. They're asking to feel be in a safer place to feel safer as residents of this town. And some way I get that you're making recommendations and that you know the town committee is going to have to approve and whatever whatever but at the end of the day, like my expectation is that you put forth as many recommendations as you can as comfortable as that may be. And as an uproar the town committee might get up get about it, but you should be putting forward at you, like, my expectation is that you're putting forward like it, like because of the fact that these are town members. That's that committee we already know doesn't represent BIPOC community period. So this group was put together. Like, I, I'm not, I'm as a member of the community.  And I'm not there because that happens so much in this town by pop community back down because white people feel uncomfortable. And we're not getting our needs met, and we're not getting simple safety things met like safety needs met and it's not okay. It is absolutely not okay. I've been very lucky in this town and I've been very privileged in this town, and I recognize that. But I've seen a lot of things in this town too. I've seen a lot of horrific things in this town, and it needs to stop. And people need to feel safe people need to be able to reach out to two services and feel safe and not feel like they're going to get their kids ripped out of their home. I feel like they're, you know, they're going to have somebody busting in their house and arresting people in their homes like with, you know, because the police get to determine whether or not something's a crime because it looks like a crime and they get to determine, you know what the law is under their idea, whatever like I just, we need to we need to feel safe. And it's been too far and too long. Um, and that's why I'm really frustrated because I do I really do feel like, you know, you're kind of buttering both sides of the toast, and it's kind of, it's really frustrating. Um, let me just go to miss Bowman miss miss Owen I'm sorry thank you miss Bowman is what I meant to say, and I'm going to go to miss miss Owen and then Mr Vernon Jones for comments please. Yeah, so I just want to amplify what miss Bowman was saying. And I wanted to take it a step further and say that I know it's very uncomfortable to make these drastic changes to community safety services. Um, if these changes are not made the distrust between BIPOC residents here it's just going to grow. And a tremendous amount of work has gone into people being uncomfortable and sharing their testimonies into filling out surveys and sharing things that have been really triggering. And I can only speak for myself, but if I wasn't in a position of privilege I would not be able to sit here and do as much work as this group requires for such a small stipend. I, I don't know it's just, I just hope that drastic changes can be made. And I understand that it's uncomfortable but the same discomfort is discomfort that has been felt by the BIPOC community for decades. Thank you miss Owen, Mr Vernon Jones. Well, when you were here for a discussion we had where we established as a group that we did not want some small pilot program that we wanted a very substantial transformative change. And I understand that you can't promise to write us a blank check at this point, but I think our question is, are you committed to funding a transformational change in public safety services and Amherst in the next budget. So if you say, oh, like, Mr one. Go right ahead. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah. So that's what I was going to want to go to is like, let's talk about what we're really talking about when we talk about people is that's the cost. That's the investment that we're talking about is this hiring people to do things. And the last number I heard were 10 people to fund for a community responder program. Is that where we were the last conversation I heard to in order to have basically two people on the streets at all the time, at all times. Is that was that the sort of place where we're going. I don't think about 10, but yeah, yeah, at least if you would be so kind to raise your hands because I don't want people to talk over each other. Thank you so much. Mr Vernon Jones and then Miss Ferrera. I don't know that we made a decision about 10. But we said we're not talking to pilot we're talking a minimum of six and more likely 10. This is the way I understood the conversation. Mr. Rower than Miss, Miss, Miss Pat. Yeah, I mean, I think my, you know, and when what we were talking about is just, I don't know for day in terms of the numbers, we just need to make sure that it has the numbers of staff people, it has the resources in terms of vehicles, equipment, training, and that it has the space. So it's going to be a lot of different things. It's not just going to be people. You said I'm saying so I can't say right now six to 10 people, it's just 12 people. It's, it's about, it's going to be more than, you know, it could be, you know, I don't know, we've been looking at I've been looking at some of the research with like a million dollars to fund something like that. Oh, it's like 500 to a million dollars. I mean, do we have that in the budget to fund something that's going to be fully resourced and staffed. Yeah, so even at $500,000 on day one July one would be a huge challenge for us we are currently at about a $165,000 deficit in our current town budget. So, so getting to 500,000 on day one would be a challenge. You know, as you're talking and thinking about how would we do this and again we would need an implementation plan. It maybe it doesn't happen on day one maybe it happens three months in or six months in that that makes the budget for FY 22 easier to manage, because you only have to fund, you know, half the year for instance and then actually maybe we get there and then. Next year we can fund it for the full year because we can make that room so I'm just trying to think problem solve how do we get to me so it sounds very, I have to fix figure out the numbers, because the budget is a numbers, and it has to be balanced. And so that's where this is very helpful conversation to me, because I'm sort of gauging what the numbers are that you're, you know, and if we're looking at, you know, I hear what I'm hearing is 500,000 to a million dollars to set up a program. I'm, you know, I'm hoping, I have confidence that we'll be able to say this will meet. This is what the research has shown this is what the working group has come up with. You know, the council will be asking me questions about well how many calls will this group be responding to I don't know the number. I don't know how many calls will be diverted from police I need all that I still we need still need to do some of that work. If I'm I just want to understand the scale that you're talking about. And if it's the six to 10 500,000 plus. That's very helpful to me. And I will go back to work and see what, what we can do. I would love to be on the same page exactly with where, where the where the working group goes where you settle it would be my ideal situation, whether I can fiscally get there is going to be the challenge. Miss Walker. Then miss Pat. Okay. Did you have a hand before miss Walker. I see some hands are on the screen. I don't see some people on the screen so were you next miss, miss Pat after Mr Bob. I've been raising my hand for a while. It's okay.  I believe either last week or the week before I had raised the issue of pre cash that the town has to me. I don't think we see even with this tossing whether we can fund it or not. We need to really ask ourselves where is our priority in this town. How can we place on home and life. And like one of us has stated this, the town council, don't represent BIPOC community. So there is money there to fund whatever we recommend. So the discussion should not even be about if we have the money or not. The discussion is. How do we value BIPOC community in this town. The discussion are done by the idea that we don't have the money to fund it. Let's get money out of other projects. I feel that the work we're doing is more important than most of the project that that is being proposed. That's where I'm coming from. And I did mention that in terms of the staffing. I suggested 10 to 12 and I have my reasoning because I did my own research too. And that's how I came up with those numbers. But there are more items to fund beside staffing vehicles and other stuff to fund. So we need to get money from the town. There is money people behind taxes in this town. Let's shift priorities. This should be one of the top priorities in this town. And I think the council should be the one to support BIPOC community. We would like to see action. Thank you. And miss Walker was next and miss Bowman and then Mr. Vernon Jones. Miss Walker. Hi, sorry, can you hear me? Yes. Yes, we can. You are mute. Sorry, it says my internet connection is unstable. Can you hear me? You sound like you're in a well, but I didn't hear you. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Okay. So I just wanted to say that like in terms of the specifics of the program, I know that it matters once we finalize our project, but I think just to have a general idea helps guide our work moving forward. And so I mean, it would be great to have 10 positions. I mean, I don't know if we're going to have more positions filled, but I think there's a huge difference in if, if the town is willing to set aside 80 K for our work as opposed to if the town is willing to find a million dollars in the budget for our work, because then that that would really, that's really what determines how many positions we can have. Because if you, but if you're saying that whatever amount we determine is the amount that you're willing to fund, that's a completely different question because then once we say, okay, actually our research shows that we need 14 positions for this town based off of the research, and then you're just going to find the money for that is a big difference than as, than if you know right now that you can only find wiggle room for 80 K, then we don't have to put out that, that projection because it's not going to be funded and it's not going to happen that way. And so then we can put out a more realistic projection of how this would actually work and how this would actually look so that it's setting up something for failure or setting up a huge model that then isn't funded and then needs to be revisited and re molded to fit what is actually our budget. And so I think we talked about the taxes, we talked about the town savings. And so I think it really has more to do with the town's willingness to find money for this in their budget than it has to do with our work in figuring out what it is that the BIPOC community is going to be doing. And so I think we need to focus on that because we know that we need to do that and that is our charge and that's what we're working on. But, but we still really need to know if our recommendations are going to be funded because I also just want to remind everybody that we're talking about the community responder program right now. What about the multicultural center? What about the youth center? What about all the other recommendations that we want to implement? Like, is this the only one that's going to be paid attention to? So is this the only thing we should ever focus on this in the community? I think it's the only thing that's going to be paid attention to. And so I think it's going to be a good idea to make sure that we're going to be able to do that. And I think it's going to give us a better answer to that because I think we're getting very general answers. And like I need to know, is this something we're going to be willing to dip into our savings because you did say at one point that that was a possibility, but if that, if you are the person to make that decision because ultimately you set the precedent. So you are the person that's going to set the example for everybody as to how much money you're willing to put. To offer out as a recommendation to the town council. And then you're going to be able to make sure that you're going to be able to make that decision. And so you're going to be able to make sure that you're going to be able to make sure that you're going to be able to make sure that you're going to be able to make the decisions that is not their job. So they can't even meet you back with no, we want to put more. That's not even a possibility. That's not even an option. So I think we, like, I still think we need that information in a more clear cut way rather than a question to a question. Thank you, Miss Walker. I'm going to go to miss Bowman and then. The Y. Keeper, just time keeper, just making sure that I do my role, and make sure people are keeping. Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Thank you. Miss. We opened it up. So I will respectfully go to miss Bowman and. And Mr. Mr. Brian Jones and then we, we will shift. Is that okay? Miss Bowman. So one of the things that, that I was thinking about when Pat. The cannabis tax on that's happening is like. Again, a lot of body pod community ended up being arrested before it all became legal. Let's put it back into this community. Like there's another place where you can say, Hey, no, we, you know, people's lives have been affected by the fact that now that we've made this legal. And people have lost a lot in their lives. They have lost a lot in their lives from being arrested from for marijuana charges. And now it's like, you know, legal. So that's another reason to put it back into the BIPOC. Put at least some of that back into the BIPOC community.  So, so. Money there, but. But like. Like Miss Walker said, you have a hard decision, Mr. Backelman, because you have to show. You have to show that. Even though a lot of people may get angry at you. You have to show is, Hey, this is what they need to accomplish. You know, ABCDFG. And this is what it's going to cost. And we need to find this. We need, you know, the money needs to come from, you know, all these different places. Everybody can do a little less, you know, on different avenues, but it needs to happen. It really does.  There's also the savings account. This, this is. This, this year, this path. The year show that I shall not man. You froze with Spalman. Um, You're freezing miss Bowman. And a lot of people. Need to feel uncomfortable for. For this change to happen. And, and like the, like I said, it's not like. There's a lot of comfort, a lot of comfy. Miss Bowman, you keep freezing.  Yeah, we need to. But. Hold the action. This is.  I want to move on to miss to another comment before we continue our discussion. But we're not hearing you, unfortunately. You're muted. You're muted miss Bowman. You're muted. I'm going to, I'll come back to you. I'm going to. Did something's not happening right there. I don't know. Are you muted now? Okay. Now you're frozen. Because. Because I. My whole thing just crashed. Okay. I'm going to. Stay there. I'm going to move to Mr. Vernon Jones. I think, you know, we have. Yeah. And I'll come back to you, Mr. Vernon Jones. Well, I support what other people have been saying about the importance of the money and some of the possible sources for it. But let's not forget that we are also talking about taking over some of the work that has previously been done by the police. And doing it in a community. Responder program. And there are a good many cities. In towns who are doing that by taking money out of the police budget and putting it into social services. So. I mean, I. I mean, just as for example. Even a modest 10% cut in the police budget would give us half a million. Which combined with some cannabis and free cash, you know, maybe we get close to a million and we can start. Doing some serious work. But I don't think it makes sense to try to do this without a meaningful reduction in the police budget. Thank you, Mr. Vernon Jones. Ms. Bowman, are you back with us? Because you'll be our last comment person before we move on. Okay. Well, thank you. Let's thank you, Ms. Rare for it. You know, keeping track of that time piece. We opened up that discussion. To try to get some clarity on that.  Press and to. Get more into the concrete details of what we. What we were thinking about in terms of potentially moving toward a proposal. And in light of that. Ms. Ferreira and, and I came up with a. A plan for how to have that discussion this evening. We had planned and. Basically. An hour and 15 hour and a half. Tired to begin that discussion to put some meat on the bones of our. Previous discussion. Which was, it was hopefully lead to. Us coming up with. The basics for a proposal that might. We might. Move forward as a recommendation to the town. In addition to what. We are learning from. The seven generations. Movement. Collective. We took a moment to, to introduce this and basically. You know, our plan was to. Have. Miss. Ms. Ferreira and me facilitate. The conversation. Based on our chart. That was created. Originally by Mr. Vernon Jones. And we did a straw poll on that. We did get some. Some responses to that some in writing. Others were not in writing. So we wanted to have this discussion this evening. To allow people who did not have a chance to respond and writing to respond. Verbally. And we would include these items in our. As a part of our input. In our. In our collective response. And what we did was we. We took the questions. From each of the sections that were in the. In the chart. And put together. You know, presented the questions in each section. And then also. In aggregate talked about. Where are. Our leanings were. In terms of agreeing. Leaning to disagree. And then also. In aggregate talked about. Where are. In terms of agreeing. Leaning to disagree. And no leaning at all. With the understanding that some people did not have a risk. A chance to respond to that in writing. So that's, that's not a complete. Total there necessarily. And we highlighted those things in yellow. As a way of saying, look, we spent a lot of time. On some of these things. And we started to. To get into the conversation or the other. So that we might spend less time on these things. And begin to move ourselves forward. In a way to sort of start creating. The framework for a proposal. In terms of. Of Crests. That we might. Incorporate. In our information that's going to the town. So it's structured with. Based on the, on the, on the chart. Crest questions one through three. And then you see. What the. Leaning to agree, disagree. No leaning. And Ms. Farera and I, you thought that maybe. We spent a lot of time on that one section last time. And we didn't get very far. But there is a strong leaning there.  If you have that document on your own. You'll see where we highlighted other things. It doesn't necessarily. It doesn't necessarily. It doesn't necessarily. It doesn't necessarily. This actually questions six should be highlighted as well. But I. Sort of missed my. Highlighter. But we were trying to highlight where we had a strong agreement. And if there were some folks who had no leaning or didn't have a chance to respond. That we'd allow them to speak first. And, and comment on, on those things. I think it's important for us to move us forward. To the point where we could begin to establish some. Foundation. For a proposal. We might put forward to the town. With respect to alternative services for public safety. So Ms. Miss Farera. Any other comments? And we are. We're literally. Well into this. We've got about. You know, even if I suspended the last piece of our meeting, we've got about 20 minutes to. To begin this conversation. Comments. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's just important for us to have this discussion. Mr. Wally. So I think, you know. Can you all hear me? Cause it's saying my internet isn't stable. I can hear you. You can hear me. Okay. So I think what's important is just to, to have the time. So I think for me, even. You can't hear me. You're frozen. You're going in and out again. Okay. Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. So I'm saying, you know, for us to just, um, Spend the time now and then spend some time, you know, the next meeting to get to all of it. Okay. Let's move forward with that because I think this, this is important because it feeds into exactly what we're talking about in terms of. Getting something in place so that our message as a group is, is clear, um, whatever recommendations we're making around finance, around programmatic issues around whatever we have to be able to articulate that in a strong fashion so that, you know, we do honor all the work that's been done by our, you know, folks in our community. It's our responsibility to do this. So let's, let's just go if you, if you, if, if, if I may miss moistened, you can go right back to questions one through three. I want to make a comment on that. A little bit further down. Bowman has her hand raised. Okay. I went off screen. I'm sorry. Oops. Sorry. Miss Bowman. I can't see him. Yeah. So I'm kind of confused. Because I feel like there's, there, I. I feel like throughout the meeting, everybody's been wanting to go back and like, make sure that, that Mr. Buckleman answers this question in a way that's clarified to us. And I feel like there's too many people in the group who are not satisfied with his answer. And that. Um, I think I think at this point, we may even want to take a bloke to see if we want to push, push other things to the side right now and get this answer. Cause this really does pertain to. A couple of things for me personally, we pertains to the amount of energy that like I'm going to put towards this. Like I, I've invested in this because I, I feel like something is. That there's potential for something really good to come out of this, but I'll tell you, like I. I, if I have to just sit back and just agree with everything else that everybody's saying, I'm going to have a really hard time as to whether or not I want to even like participate. It really does come down to that for me. And I really think that. You know, after the last round of like questions and like, we're trying to figure this out, you just, Mr. Wiley, you just skipped over and was like, okay, well, now we're going to the next thing. And I don't understand why. It's not a consensus. It's not a group of us saying, okay, no, we actually need to stay here in order to move on to the next thing. And I, and I have heard that a number of times. So I feel like this needs to go to a vote at this point as to whether or not we move on. Or we get the answer. We, we have this, we have this discussion out with Mr. Backemin to figure out like, you know, to get our answer satisfied in a way that I feel like we deserve being part of this group. I can comment on that. Does anyone have a comment on it? My, my comment is this, I, I, I go back and this is Ms. Bowman. I hear you clearly and directly. Ms. Walker, I hear you clearly and directly. You're asking Mr. Backemin as town manager to commit to what we're trying to do as a, as a group and to be able to say in advance of anything we, we say based on the work of the seven generations moving collective and the group that's been working for three and a half months together that we're just saying will you support whatever we put forward to you regardless of the cost? And I don't want to speak for anyone on this committee, but if there's a commitment to that, that has to come from the town manager to say yes, I will commit to anything this group is going to put forward regardless of the cost in the interest of safety, especially for BIPOC folks and our community, then yes, I'm willing to do that. Or it's two pieces of this. It's just too, there's the other piece of this. So we put something, whatever we put forward, that gets advanced to the town. Okay. And then it's at a whole different level. And this gets back to our question about whether the town was committed to the work that its own commitment to, to, to BIPOC people and diversity, equity and inclusion, and whether or not they were going to, to fund anything like this. It sounds like to me, and if I'm speaking wrong, you know, you will let me know. But I believe strongly that our, regardless of Mr, what Mr. Bachman says, I'm less interested in what Mr. Bachman has to say.  I'm more interested in what we have to say as a group about what this community needs based on what we know and put it out there and put a price tag on it. And if the, if Mr. Bachman and the town decides to say, well, I don't know. I don't think it's a waste of time as much as it is. We've done our due diligence and we've done our work as a committee to come up with the best possible recommendation for our town.  Well, maybe it's not for nothing. Maybe it begins a whole different surge or energy. That's my only thought about it. And I'm willing to, this is, this is our group. And I'm willing to work with this group. But the fact that we, you know, we have these, these things weighing on us right now. Is where we're stuck. And we're stuck if we can't move beyond the question to Mr. Bachman, then I go back to Miss Bowman and said, how do you want to proceed? Because it's important that we get something to people. That we've had major contact with. I don't even know who was next up there. I see three hands. Was it, who was it? Oh my goodness. I was, I was talking so much. I forgot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Miss Bowman and then who? Then I'm next. Oh, it was right across the screen. Okay. Miss Bowman. Miss Ferreira. Miss Walker. Thank you. Okay. Okay. So I don't, I, this, I think this. I'm not asking for something to be put aside. I'm asking for something to be addressed so that we can actually fully. You know, figure out how we're going to move forward funding. Is essential for us to move forward. And if we're going to present something and say, no, this, we need a million dollars for this thing. And then Mr. Bachman is going to go to the committee and be like, they need a million dollars, but I budgeted them for 500,000. So we're going to reallocate how we're doing the work that we're doing. Um, And. Well, you know, like the point that Mr. Vernon Jones made about like, we're taking, we're trying to take over services that we deem unnecessary for police to do. They should not be getting more money. They should be getting less period. That's it. No more discussion. They're not doing those services anymore. And I just, I don't understand why we can't get a straight answer. I need a straight answer. I need an answer. I need a, we're going, I will put through anything you ask for.  Or you're going to tell us that you're not, you do not plan to put forward all of the requests that we're going to ask for. And we need to know that ahead of time. And okay. So. You know, I'll put 50, 50% of whatever you ask for, I will support 50% of it. That's what I would bring to the town committee. Like, because I, that plays in my head over and over again. I do not plan on putting through every, all their recommendations that goes through my head. When I heard that was like, wow, okay. That's how, that's how this is happening. All right. That's, that was very clear. You know, I don't know if you need to take a moment to go back and hear that yourself, but that's what I heard when I listened to the, the. You speak about it and speak about our committee. And so. That's, that's problematic for me because that means that you already intended not. To support us. And that's why I think that was a good point to say. And so, I think that I'll leave it to you. Miss Farrere was next and then. Miss Walker and then, Mr. Well, I mean, for me. You know, I do want to hear from Mr. Bacchum and kind of here again, because for me, what I was hearing from him the last time was that he was saying that we could put together what we wanted to recommend. thing is, is that we're gonna have to figure that out. And like, we're all on board that we're gonna have to find that money somewhere, right? So it's defunding. So those are the things that we have to recommend, right? The money's gonna come from the police because a lot of what we're recommending is going to be is it's going to the police aren't going to be doing those services anymore. You see what I'm saying? So, so that's the thing that's the quandary right now, right? We want to know where the funding is coming from, but we haven't gone to the point to say this is where what we need, you know, so, you know, I'm at the point that I want to talk about what we need and we need to concrete we have to say that concretely, too. I mean, I want to hear from Ms. Wagner, but we need to get to that point of just talking about the program. And I guess every time we get to this point, we stall. So I do, I do want us to move forward, right? But I'm also I'm good with what Ms. Bowen said, let's take a vote then, you know, if people are at that point, I'm at that point where I need to move on, I want to move on, I want to find out what our recommendations are, right? And that's where I'm at. So I think we want to take a vote because right now I feel like we're just stuck, you know, so I want to hear from Mr. Bachman. I want us to take a vote. And I want us to go right or left or, you know, keep moving. Ms. Walker. And then Mr. Bachman. Sorry, I'm going to make it short because I also want to hear from Mr. Bachman. I agree with with Tashina and Ms. Ferreira, but I and I do want to move forward and I and I don't like the fact that we get stuck every time. But I do think that we need this information to move forward and we could have moved moved forward like 30 minutes ago if we got just a straight out answer from Mr. Mr. Bachman. So I don't think it's fair that we're we're we're putting the assumption out that we're stalling because we're asking questions because these are very reasonable questions for us to have. And I think that we can just get a straight out answer because this is in regards to a meeting that happened on Monday night. So these things all just recently came up for me. These weren't questions that I had before. And so I didn't anticipate these things earlier. But I these things were said in a town committee meeting by the town manager who sits in our meetings and has the ability to dictate the successfulness of our work. So I think we deserve an answer to that and a straightforward answer. And it can be a short, simple answer. That's not asking us another question to our question. And then we can move forward. But we I didn't get any answers. We just spent 30 minutes talking about it without any answers. So I think that's the the stuck part right now. Thank you, Ms. Walker. So Mr. Bachman, you were the last in the queue. So I don't recall saying those words, Miss Bowman and Miss Walker. I will go back and listen to that. I trust that that I must I must have said it because you heard it and you both heard it independently. So I will go back and listen to exactly what that was. So I yeah. So I don't know, I don't remember exactly what those words were. So I know you don't want to have a question to a question. I want to put as much as we can towards the programs. I don't know. I can't just say whatever you ask for, I'm going to support because I have a I have to build them. I have to construct a budget that's with that that works that that's balanced. So I I'm trying I want to get to where where you're comfortable in what I'm walking away with from I felt like we've got some really solid numbers that I can go start working on figure out how to make that work. So I don't want to I feel, you know, I'm not trying to dodge or anything like that. So I want this. This is a high priority. But I can't say yes, whatever you come up with, I'm going to say yes to I have to build a sustainable budget that's available year to year and that we can build on. So it's in the budget from forever. So I don't know if that's as I'm sure that's not a satisfactory answer to you. But that's where I have to be right now. Let me just go back. Let me go back to excuse me one second. Sorry about that. Did you have I wanted to make a closing comment on this Mr. Vernon Jones. You want to go forward and then I'll comment. Yeah, I just want to make sure we don't create any misunderstanding with what was put up on the screen for questions one through three. I believe what's there is now is no longer something we support. I think we have had a consensus that we support a twenty four seven community responder program with adequate vehicles, equipment, training, supervision, and support. And I actually think it might be helpful if we would ask the town manager to come back to us with an estimate of what that might cost. Well, if I may thank you for that. And I think one of the this is where I think we we we missed the mark in part at this meeting because that very thing was something we would we would have been able to jump into and get to pretty quickly. Well, I'd be willing to make a motion with that to that effect right now if you want me to. Well, let me let me let me go back because what preceded your your your motion and I if I may just be before we go to that was we had three people, Ms. Ferrara, Ms. Bowman, Ms. Walker, all asking for us to take, you know, a vote as a committee as to whether or not we wanted to go forward with this discussion. I'm not sure I don't want to frame the question for the vote, but that how to go forward. I do see a purpose in a you know, in your motion, you know, certainly Mr. Vernon Jones. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Wiley. That's not really what we're asking. We're just asking for we're just asking for clarification on a question. I know I think at this point we're clear and we can move on. And I I'm hoping that next week or through an email, Mr. Bachman will have listened to the meeting on Monday and that you know that he was out on Monday, specifically the part that had to do with our group. It starts at hours three twenty seven by the way, Mr. Bachman. And then he can send an email or he can, you know, talk to us next week about it, but I think, you know, at this point, we're satisfied with the information that he gave and we should absolutely move on. But I think we should we should get other people's, you know, sentiment. Yeah, everybody else should chime in whether they want to move on or whether we need to continue, you know, discussing this further. Because if not, we're not going to get to the other part if there's still a result. Ms. Bowman, thank you. That's clarifying and clear. And you know, I appreciate it. Ms. Pereira, thank you. I want to come back to Mr. Vernon Jones in a moment. Ms. Bowman. I understand what everyone saying about just having a clear question. However, I do think that we should move on just because in a way the community safety working group are charges to work within the system. And part of us working within the system is meeting the deadlines and I just really don't want our recommendations to not even make it to the budget by us not prolonging the conversation. So I think we should move forward. But I do understand the urgency of a more clear answer. So let me let me let me go back where we're just about at 730 and I do have to be off this call because I have a meeting at 745 that I have to attend. You certainly can go on this this on. I don't want to suspend the conversation if it goes to be honest. But you can probably continue this. But there's three things. There's three things I'm hearing. One is if there's a motion coming from Mr. Vernon Jones, I want to return to. There's a request for Mr. Backelman to respond in more detail to the the community safety working group. And there's also seems a need for us to continue and not continue but begin actually this conversation about our alternative public safety programs that were thinking about in the name of press. So I those are three things I'm hearing and I'd like to return to you Mr. Mr. Vernon Jones. See what it is if if you want to restate that motion if we could we could take a vote on that in particular motion. Entertain that motion. And then if that gets traction then we can go back and ask Mr. Backelman for a response and then have us all commit to the piece that Ms. Ferreira is speaking about which is to really concretely get ourselves in place to present something to Mr. Backelman and the town. So Mr. Vernon Jones. I mean I'm willing to make a motion if people would prefer to have a consensus that yes a 24-7 program is what we want. I don't mean to force the decision making process one way or the other but I'll do whatever you ask as chair. Well you know it's a motion so I'm going to second the motion and then we'll see if there's any discussion about that from the group before we go forward and then I'd like to return to the other two items. Is that okay? Shall I state it as a motion? State it as a motion yeah. I move that we decide that one of our recommendations is to establish in FY 22 a community responder program that will provide unarmed trained safety and social services to the town 24-7 with adequate vehicles equipment training supervision and support and that we ask the town manager to bring us an estimate of what it will cost to fund such a program as soon as possible. I second that motion. Discussion of the motion? I mean the only thing is is that career. Sorry yeah I guess discussion is that what I'm supposed to say? No I just did you just surprise me. Sorry. I didn't see your face and then all of a sudden I said oh I heard a voice. That's okay. Um no so I guess my thing is this though I mean we're fitting it as this is our recommendation. Are we there yet though that that's our recommendation? I guess you know what I'm saying? Well this is what is slash would have been the first part of our discussion around this had we had it and this we did not get there. So we're there so if for all intents and purposes Mr. Vernon Jones's motion is beginning that discussion that we were supposed to have an hour and a half ago. So I guess my thing would be tweak that. I don't know if we're ready to just say a recommendation can't we just say you know we're looking at right now to have a program that's 24 seven that's fully resourced that because you know we also have to have you know that they have their a space to be housed then all of those things but that we're looking at that and for him to look at how much a program like that would would cost but I wouldn't be comfortable just saying that that's our recommendation. I mean we haven't flushed it all out yet. I'm happy to accept that as a friendly amendment. We can accept a friendly amendment and and it was someone like to accept that as second that amendment to the emotion the motion. I second that. Miss Miss Owen and let me just go straight to it would would the group be in favor of having us pursue that action with the the town manager as amended? If yes just raise your hand okay Mr. Bachmann do you have any questions about what this where this is going and what you need? No I understand the motion I'll get that information to you as soon as possible well before your next meeting. Thank you.  No I was just raising it in favor of the motion. Oh okay I finally saw a hand and it was an easy one. My second thing was that given that information coming back to us based on that motion I would like for us to commit to a discussion about Cress as we had planned today and begin that conversation in earnest the next meeting. And if we could have agreement to that I think it gets to the point that Miss Ferreiro is also making that we we need to get something concrete in place. We have about three weeks or so to to to move forward and I want to I don't want to I don't want to miss or dismiss or have it evaporate the comments that are made by Miss Bowman, Miss Walker, Miss Ferreiro and others that we're Mr. Mr. Bachman that we're looking for as much concrete and supportive responses we can from the town manager as this thing moves toward town. We know we have our recommendations to make so we're we're going to do that work but I would I would like for us to go directly into that conversation next week if we if we could. Any objection to that Mr. Vernon Jones? I have no objection but if we're talking about discussing the whole chart or grid or whatever we had that's more than Cress and I do think we need to have some at least some discussion of other aspects besides Cress that are on that list. Well there are I mean there were some so we're talking about our commitment is to try to talk about the whole list. The whole list but with the understanding that this is is more dynamic than just you know just the Cress list that you know we heard people talk earlier about you know community programs and those kind of things. It's more dynamic than where it appears on the paper. So yes that's our commitment and you know admittedly I would say like we may not get through that. You know hopefully we will cut into that very deeply but the goal of this was to get to a point where we can bullet out some things that we want to have as a framework for a proposal that we could we could put some numbers to and some recommendations to and a rationale for doing what we're saying we're doing and you know have a compelling argument here that that's that that's our work. So that Miss Frera. Miss Frera. So just one more thing that I know that Mr. Wiley and I had discussed is just that for folks to just think about who might be willing to do to have like a subcommittee to just think about like you know when we do have this discussion next week just kind of taking some notes so we can build an outline right that we can share with the seventh generation because obviously they're they're getting the data together and so that then we have the data that backs up are you know what we've been discussing in terms of recommendations so that then we will have it in time to submit by the budget deadline okay so if there's some folks that are willing to do that we can find that out at the beginning of next week's meeting. Agreed. Other comments. Well thank you all that this is hard work and you know as I say I'm confident we're going to get there it's this is not easy not easy on any of us and I think you know Dr. Shabazz talked about the kind of work that's going on in the community and how this is affecting all of us you know as individuals working on it there's a lot behind it not just the numbers and the words but it's a very emotional charge we have to put forward so you know absolutely any other comments on that I'd like to move forward let's see where are we here so thank you all one of the things I'd also like to is to remind folks oh Mr. Pat has your hand up okay I'm sorry I did I started talking and I looked at myself on the screen Ms. Pat go ahead I'm just reflecting on what everybody have said tonight and I want to thank everyone having lived in this town for more than 36 years how time have changed to have our younger generation doing the work that we've done in the past if we were in the past for those who spoke up tonight would be seen as troublemakers that to have BIPOC committee to really speak their mind I was just listening for admiration because that wasn't my experience I've done all this in the past and I I hope this is a new change in this town that people actually have space to speak their mind and they're not be ignored or hushed or dismissed I feel very encouraged as an elder in BIPOC committee permitting thank you all that's all I want to say I chose not to talk a lot tonight because I am very happy to hear younger generation take on the work that some of us have been doing in this town for many many years and we're called troublemakers which is all right with me according to Reb Lois who passed away it's a good trouble and so I thought this is a very good meeting people might think that we need to move forward we don't have time we have to make the deadline but these are very hard important discussion that means to come out to the open it didn't surprise me that we're discussing this even before I joined this group my network has said back what is going to change now it's just one of the check bus lists you know to say that we've done it so all this discussion did not surprise me tonight so I think I don't think it's a waste of time it's a good thing that we discussed there an action will tell in the future whether or not this discussion was worth it or not that's all I want to say thank you all I appreciate that Ms. Pat and I think respectfully I as I mentioned a moment ago I'm going to have to be off because I have to join another thing unfortunately I didn't anticipate it being 7.45 but it is so we have a couple of other items on the agenda the upcoming events the next meeting and other topics and an adjournment I would respectfully ask maybe if Ms. Owen you could take that over for the end I want to say also before I leave I want to echo what Ms. Pat is saying and that you know we're at a critical point and some of these conversations are going to be hard I hope we all are learning I am and I hope we all are learning from each other and from our community about what needs to happen here and that we just take the learning forward the other piece I want to say before I leave is that I would really encourage folks although we you know we will probably have the same two agenda items we'll have an update from Dr. Dr. Shabazz in Seven Generations Movement Collective and this Crest Discussion next week we'll anticipate the response from Mr. Bonkelman but that we engage that fully I would also suggest that if if you really feel you want something on the agenda please please articulate that and get it to Ms. Moisten speaking of deadlines by one o'clock on Monday I think some of those things if we know they're coming up we can engage them more fully and more purposefully and I just don't want to you know have us miss an opportunity if something's on your mind so that said I'm going to have to respectfully sign off and Ms. Owen if you don't mind continuing this I appreciate you and appreciate everybody thank you all thank you much thank you thank you so moving to the next item on our agenda I guess I'll open up the floor if anybody has any upcoming events Ms. Pat if I could ask Ms. Moisten if you don't mind sending the announcement for the legwoman voter webinar or Zoom gathering tomorrow for people who might be interested in running for offices especially to our young generation so attend tomorrow night maybe after the training they might be inspired to run for office we need to put some people out of the office in order to make this town work well for everybody definitely does anybody else have any other upcoming events I have an event that I wanted to share with you all outside of the community safety working group I do work with Foster Youth predominant who predominantly identify as BIPOC and one of the biggest issues I've been facing in work is the mistrust with young people getting the vaccine so I am working with UMass medical to put together a vaccine info session and question a led by two BIPOC doctors I want to throw it out there with you all to see if you had any young people who are doubting the vaccine and just wanted to learn more so moving to I guess moving to the next agenda item next meeting date does next Wednesday at 5 30 work for everyone still yep and then other topics the chair did not reasonably anticipate 48 hours in advance of the meeting so if no one has anything at this time I'd ask somebody to make a motion to adjourn a motion that we adjourn second date is that how this ends I don't okay thank you guys all and I'll see you guys next meeting thank you bye have a nice day everyone whether tomorrow and Brianna thank you for sharing about that clinic and for doing that work that's really good good work yes thank you down to thank you everybody bye bye bye