So I'm Francesca Vitellini and I'm a Senior Solution Consultant at Mirai Solutions and today I'm here to moderate to the panel our user or our developer. This is the question and it's actually really a question because since I started talking about this with my colleagues and in my network I realized that it is really no consensus of what these two roles are in the community. What type of skills should our developer have versus our user or what type of backgrounds is it involved. So I realized it's really important for us to have an open conversation about this and today we are going to do it with five different experts of our community that I'm really happy to host here today. So we have here I'm going to read that tiny bit of a biography sorry. So we have Martin with a professor of statistics at the Mathematics Department of EDH and it was one of the pioneers of the R language and is currently a part of the R development team and the R Foundation for the R project. Then we have Alexis Seig Lager who is head of analytics and technology department at Parnary and he has expertise in the reinsurance business but also bridging the gap between commercial, actuarial and analytic teams. We have Nick Crane who is a data scientist and a software developer with expertise in production grade code and training and she has experience in developing both R packages and Shiny applications as well and NP models in Python. Then we have Sandrine Doudois I open pronouncing the surname correctly my French is terrible anyhow she's a professor and the chair of the department of statistics and professor of the division of your statistics at the University of California Berkeley with a research focus in development of statistical methods and software for bio medical and genomic data. She's also a funding core developer of the bio conductor project together with our master but not least a panelist that is a professor of applied statistics at Harvard and share of the department of data science at Data Farber Cancer Institute and is also a developer of open source software and for the implementation of statistical methodology and part of the bio conductor project since the beginning. So I'm very happy to have you all here as well as our audience and I would also like to thank our sponsors I was loosely coupled with the organizing committee of user 2021 especially in the sponsoring section so I really know how important it is to have people supporting us so I'm going to say thank you for the sponsor of the day which is our studio. Now we know Fidget I do because we only have one hour I would like to dig in and start with the first real question which is what is the definition of an R developer and how does it distinguish itself from from being an R user and I would like to ask all our panelists to give a little bit of their own perspective also based on their different backgrounds so why don't you start Martin. Hello everybody I have the perspective or yes of an R core member but also of an academic who teaches math and stats and computational stats and things like that and as many of you know R is really in some sense the daughter or son of S and John Chambers is the guy who mostly devised the S system and he got the very famous computer science award the ACM award which is only given to one person once a year for creating S and he wrote the book that's now the topic he wrote the book with the title programming with data using R or using S and so his approach is good data analysis good statistics good data science whatever you want to do it good machine learning means programming you cannot do good data analysis if you just click buttons and choose from a user so you have to do programming and creating S and from there are really provided tools to use high level programming languages that doesn't need a computer science education that doesn't need compilers and so on as you all know to do data analysis that is adapted to your to your data situation to the problem you want to solve and so in this sense I think all good data analysts data scientists should be programmers using R and in that sense in that sense in that wide sense all such good data analysts are our developers because some people told me well a developer is somebody who programs who writes code and in this sense good data analysts writes R code even writes R functions to make his whole analysis so much reproducible well documented and so on. Do you agree with Martin's perspective? Yeah absolutely so I definitely agree with the idea that you know it's quite a wide thing that we could probably call a lot of people in our developer and I think this question also is something that we really need to be careful about the context that we're asking it in because we're at a real risk of potentially sounding quite gatekeepering so at a kind of high level absolutely you know and our developer is somebody that writes R code and I might even put something in there about a little bit of knowledge of software engineering principles even something as simple as writing functions or even including documentation but then it gets more complicated I guess if we're thinking about that distinction in the context of the job market right because I think a lot of the time on our developer and a data scientist can be very similar but there's more distinction between data scientists and Python developers say than data scientists in our developer and I think it gets a bit more complicated when you get to that point. Yes thank you very much and Alexis what is your perspective from an industry point of view? So I there's a difference between people who use R and use that to fit models who are clearly writing code and what I would call an R developer for me an R developer and a distinct from our core developer which is something else but an R developer is someone who applies software engineering principles to build production code and environments and happens to use R to do so and that makes it rare because R is not a particularly well-known computer science type language in comparison to say Python but in the right context and in the right organization and we've recently hired our own R developer where we say there are reasons why we want to build production software in R and it's not about fitting models and it's not about data science actually and it's not about ML or anything like that it's about build R code which is production ready which can be deployed which is reproducible which is scalable use techniques from software engineering to make sure it will be maintainable and robust also for your colleagues to work with and when you do that you are in our context and R developer. Thank you Alexis and Zendrin what about academia this is it the same there? Hi everyone and thanks Francesca for putting together the panel so yeah so what's an R developer that's not such an easy question and I think that's one that we could ask for other languages as well and it's clear already from talking to different panelists that there are different perspectives in academia or in industry or even within academia and industry I think I'll step back a little bit so there's really a range of expertise in R users from someone that just uses the software for the first time to someone that advances the language and makes research level contributions to computing so I think a software and R developer is somewhere on that spectrum the real difficulty is where you put the boundary and also what features of that person you use to define that boundary so you know for instance you could put a developer as someone that contributes a package to repository like Cran or by a connector or someone that produces production level software but then I think there's a real big difference between someone like me who contributes packages and then say an R core developer like Martin who advances the field of statistical computing so I often use this analogy from math so there's a big difference between someone that uses a theorem applies a theorem in a very useful manner and then someone that actually proves that theorem so I do think it's worth adding maybe a third category to reflect at least three levels you know that cover the whole spectrum so beginner, intermediate, and advanced so I think the real question is define the variables and the features of that would define these different types of R users or developers and try to come up with an understanding so I really look forward to hear more about this. Thank you and last but not least Raphael what do you think do you agree with this three category model or you have a different opinion? Yeah I mostly agree with what Sandrine explained also my definition is similar to Alexis so the first thing I thought about when you invited me to participate in this panel is why are we defining this what's the point of defining this term and the one reason I can come up with and it's something that I actually is somewhat important to me is for hiring people so if I'm going to use that term to hire people I want it to mean something that everybody uses has the same definition that will make my life easier that's the selfish goal but let's take that goal as my goal for now so with that goal in mind I would define our developer similar to Alexis and Sandrine I have two jobs I am an academic that writes papers and tries to disseminate statistical methodology or computational algorithms that I come up with or my students in postdocs and I'm also the chair of a data science department at a cancer center where we actually develop production code for making decisions for patient care those are different very different but at the end the R part is similar so in the case of an academic I if I come up with an idea that I arrive at as Martin described programming with data in R and I have I want to share this idea with the world want others to use it to implement that I want it to be fast efficient well documented so I want I have become too busy to do that myself so I want to like I want to hire someone to do it for me now or for my postdocs and students wherever else and there's also the other reason too is because there's people out there do it much much better than me so I would I would define our developer someone who could write efficient R code know how to how to make packages know how to document know how to make make it efficient and by for example writing C plus plus code or using matrix algebra and that's similar to the other to the other side of my job which is to implement production software so in that sense that's how I would define our developer I also what when I first heard the topic of the of the of this panel the when I thought about developer this is before I thought about it more after our conversations the first thing that came to mind was someone that was making our improving the R language but since we've since we have conversations I've had now a more practical definition of what an R developer is yeah that's great I'm really happy that this panel is already bringing something useful really if it started there less than 10 minutes ago anyhow let me share my screen again I would like to show you what has the community said so far so quite interesting interestingly almost 50 percent of the people who took this survey and we are talking about a really small amount of people it was about 150 people who took the survey over the span of a week well they thought that another developer is someone who developed tools for other to use and this can be also domain specific then 21 percent of believes that is someone who structures the code as a package 13 percent believes is someone who extends the R language 10 percent is a someone who applies basic software development concepts to code designs and the rest is other answers and also in terms of defining an R developer versus an R user we see quite a bit of a variety we had this question both in the survey and in the LinkedIn poll that I ran for a couple of weeks and then we saw in both cases quite a uniform distribution slightly picked towards the R user but yeah this is another sign for me that there isn't a clear definition or a clear understanding of what an R user is with respect to an R developer okay so with this I would like to go back to what Raffer said at the end of his answer and it's about hiring so first of all Nick what do you think is the concept of an R developer in the job market? Yeah so I guess as I was saying before it's really kind of pretty hard to distinguish so for example I've had previous jobs where I've had a job titled data scientist or data science consultant but actually when you look at the work I've been doing it has been mainly R development so with that it becomes difficult and then there's so many different facets within R like again I've been an R developer I've ended up doing web app development I've ended up doing package development I've ended up doing machine learning so again it's really hard to pin it down although with all of those things said as somebody that doesn't come from a traditional computer science background I think the things that have made me stand out from other candidates that I've been told have been useful when I've been applying for R related jobs that have been more developer focused and say stats focused have been things like knowledge of concepts like unit testing version control deployment coding standards and all those more kind of traditional software engineering type concepts and I think that probably comes from the fact that traditionally if we kind of divide data science into R and Python a lot of our users will come from an academic background which isn't necessarily computer science and I think it's those bits and pieces that can make somebody stand out a bit more and I see you Alex is nodding there so what do you look for when you hire an R developer continuing if you're just a hired one so I think what Nick just described is what I would call the carpentry of R development so of any development actually unit testing deployment automation mastery of your tools and so on and then for an advanced R developer I would be looking for someone who can I don't know think in a computer science way so here is an algorithm in code is this heavy on memory or on computation what if your memory is constrained how would you modify this how do you do the trade-offs which you would do in software engineering how do you trade off speed versus memory how do you understand that or can you if we go okay this is cool but now we need to parallelize it how would you do it effectively and then linking that to R has some really sneaky gotchas when you're trying to vectorize or turn something into matrices or so do you understand these concepts and do you understand how they apply to R and you understand how these trade-offs work so that you can develop something truly next level the way in R's to do so and that's those are software development skills linked to knowledge of the R language it's and for me it's generally genuinely both it is R developer I expect all these things of a developer but if somebody has all these things and just knows it for Python or for C++ and doesn't know it for R they will not be able to perform in this role because they don't necessarily know and understand how the underpinnings of R can help or hinder you as you're trying to solve these questions and Rafa do you agree with Alexis do you think this is applicable in academia as well absolutely 100% both Nick and Alexis they were they're hitting they're basically summarizing what I think we need to explain when we write a job at and that's what I was referring to when I said I would hire them not only because I don't have that much time anymore but because they're much better than me at things like unit testing and other software engineering principles so that's that's exactly right I think it's it's that's how I would want to write an ad now to hire a software engineer explaining all those all those things it has to be R because and why does it have to be R that's something else we haven't talked about like if you're if all you want to do is share your statistical idea that could be done in Python or whatever else but but I think it's there's a lot there's two reasons one is because already the prototype will be done in R and second because the users that we're targeting are mostly R users at least I at least in my case this maybe Python is closed but in the genomics world it's about even right now but yeah I agree okay so maybe you can continue in this and tell us a little bit what type of skills so practically should this person have a leak should they know dev ops version control or which ones would be the most important for you and maybe Alexis you can follow up there with what would be most important in your case oh sorry did you ask that one to me from Jessica first no no I didn't but if you want if you have an opinion on that no no I thought you said Nick but you didn't no I was asking I have to continue that but yeah I don't want I don't want to be repetitive a lot of a lot of the concepts and skills have already been described the one that I the one that I would add for my own area is it's we don't always get this and you can learn it on the job but if you get someone that already knows the the details and the nuances of the biological problem or technological or the technology that's generating the data that that is a huge plus it saves us a lot of time in training them and of course I imagine that's similar to other application areas but other than that I think between Nick and Alexis they kind of mentioned everything I would I would I would put on the list I would add one I'll call it a non-technical skill it's a behavioral skill empathy with an end user so it's it's it's if you're technically amazing but either the end users don't want to talk to you or you don't understand what they're actually after and you don't build what is actually needed then you are not as valuable as you could be to the success of the the organization you're in and Martin maybe what would be in your opinion that the top skill that an art developer should have and mute yourself I'm used to teaching that I'm never muted sorry um rough you made in a very important remark there are some skills that you can learn on the job and you should learn because it's inside the company you work they have their standards anyway and so so I think it's it's it's well of course I have the point of view I want to be to teach people to be creative and thorough and self-critical data analysts and that's something that needs much more time than to learn a new style or to learn a new dialect of sea or whatever so the question is really and I see that in the Q&A somebody actually asked the question too now most are users and that's probably still true come from statistical data science background and not from computer science at least that's very much the case in Europe I don't know how much it's in the on the west coast or in California now that things change and of course in industry there are computer scientists too that that come to us or but I still think the the data analysis skill which is not just a pipeline of things you run your data through and then you get the output is something that needs time to be taught and we still emphasize to teach that to our students and not computer science skills because then they well if they go to computer science that's fine and machine learning is actually at our institute machine learning is is taught by both statistics and and computer science with an emphasis on computer science whereas there are other fields so can I can I comment on something I I agree with everything that Martin is saying but I would agree to it when describing a data analyst which I consider to be a separate task of the software developer and I in academia at least the academia I've experienced we have good academics that are good at data analysis and we teach it and it's hard to teach like Martin says it takes time you have to be there's a lot of critical thinking but we're not at least in my experience we're not that great at software engineering there are some there are good ones out there there's you know our core and the people developing tidy verse and data table they're great software engineers but I don't think that's the majority in academia we tend to not be trained and also we don't have the incentives are in place to make you spend more time developing performing data analysis and developing methods either of the two depending how applied you are so so there's not that many rewards I my opinion unfortunately for people who spend a lot of time making their software very efficient very user friendly and that's why we're trying now now we're trying to because there's no incentives from the academia side we're trying to use grant funding or other funding to hire people that are really really good at that and let them do that part given that it's hard to it's hard for me to tell a postdoc or a graduate student spend the next six months making the software really really good as opposed to telling them write another paper it's not it's not really my decision right it's that's just the extensive extensive structure that's in place right now we and we're all trying to make it to reward more for people who actually take the time to but it hasn't quite happened yet that's what this point of because it really brings me to say something so for what in my list of questions there was one about the way we teach are and I would like to ask Sandrine if uh should we shouldn't start to include some computer science uh elements in the way we teach are already considering that normally the R user or the R practitioner is someone that is maybe coming from a very domain specific background and not computer uh science right definitely and and I just want to say that I you know I call what Martin and Rafa have just said um about the qualities that we're looking in it's in the self-criticism is key common sense is key and then Rafael mentioned this um idea of incentive system I mean there's been a lot of resistance in academia about spending time not just on on statistical computing but even applied statistics so I think we really need to to change that and and and start including these in the curriculum so so you can go you can learn by doing um that's one way but at some point I think you do also need some form of training uh to be able to have you know general concepts about computing and and more concepts from computer science to incorporate that in the statistics or data science curriculum um you know before doing that I think we have to think about what populations of students we want to train it's not one size fits all and then for each of these different populations think about the learning objectives so so just from my own perspective um you know sharing a statistics department we already have different populations of students we have our non majors who you know we basically want to teach them a little bit of data literacy and computer literacy but they will most likely not end up being developers so so that's a population we have to think what we want to impart to them then there's um our graduate students um so for these students we want to teach them more advanced notions about data analysis and and in computing and there's a real problem here in particular with data analysis is it doesn't scale up very well um you know if you really want to teach applied statistics or the practice of statistics or computing with data you want to start with studies and and it's a bit of an art and here interaction is really important it's not something you can just do passively teaching to a huge audience and and you know it takes time and interaction so I think identifying the different groups of students and learning objective would be a start and just making it's a lot of communication around that and and showing the value of teaching statistical computing to the academic community it's not computer science it's not statistics it's sort of something that brings elements of both and that will be evolving as data science is evolving nowadays I I think it's very hard to teach computer to teach good software engineering practice in the context of a data science program or a statistical program because your constraint is time and then like both you and Rafa have said incentive software engineering is a craft it's something and you speak to software engineers and they'll tell you and I know this from my experience the first language you learn is a language the second language teaches you concepts but by the time you've learned your fifth programming language you're starting to understand software engineering and I've seen the sort of deeper patterns and teaching multiple software languages in parallel to an entire data science curriculum is both challenging time-wise people only have so many hours in their semester and incentive-wise if I'm a data scientist why would I learn these things when I think I'd probably better learn Bayesian methods of machine learning because that makes me more marketable in the job market so I think producing our developers straight out of university is really hard our developer is the marriage of people using R having experience somehow melding those two things together a lot like Nick has described her journey and then at some point you go I have got both sets of skills I can program in R and I know what it is and that's that's how our developers are made I think it's very hard to teach them so with this idea that the R developer can be a bit of a unicorn but it's a necessary one to have production ready code then can we say that R is a language ready for production and I would like to ask Nick to comment on this because you have the experience of bringing of producing the production ready code yeah absolutely so actually when people express skepticism about this idea it really frustrates me I was in a job interview in about 2018 with a multinational consulting company which I won't name and they dismissed R as how it's just something people use in academia and people don't use that in prod which is utter nonsense all it meant is they didn't know how to put it in production themselves which is very different and you know R there's so many tools out there you've got things that you can make API for plumber web apps with shiny and so many different things out there so in terms of you know R and production there's so many examples as well so I worked on projects that have involved kind of making a massive shiny app that can support hundreds of concurrent users that's now used in the NHS in the UK I've worked on projects involved writing packages and APIs that are used by the Office for National Statistics so I find it completely ridiculous when people say R is not ready for production and I think as Marc Sellers said in I think it was our studio conference 2019 it's cultural not technical barriers that get in the way of R going into production run over completely agree oh I just realized we have questions in both the Q&A and the chat so you know in case you're looking oh Francesca you muted them I did I I didn't want to mute people I was trying to unmute myself anyway um what I wanted to say is that it's great that we have questions in the Q&A I will reserve a little bit of time at the end of the moderation to take whatever the audience is interested in and ask it to all the panelists but please can you put the questions not in the chat but in the Q&A and you can also vote for questions in there so that we will take the most popular first thank you so back to the main point here we were talking about R being a language for production and I wanted to ask if being R a language that is very user friendly makes it more a language ready for production or more a language ready for POCs and Alexis what do you think about that in production is a definition right in production means yeah it's up when it's running and it it can do certain stuff and we well written code is easy to maintain in production it's not just about getting it out there and it actually working the easier your language is to use generally the easier it is to maintain the easier it is to collaborate on a project the easier it is to modularize pieces the easier it is to possibly deploy into a more microservice architecture or doesn't have a comp side background it's if you compare it to languages of which have been built to be in production you look at rust you look at go it's not there but that doesn't mean it can't be used in production see sort of how much of the universe runs on C is a horrible language to put into production because it has no god rails there are so many security holes in the world's infrastructure because this was written in C by well-intentioned people and it didn't get the daylights tested out of it so I I don't think the user friendliness of the language is a way to think about whether something can be put into production it's about is the core bug free if something goes wrong can you find something do you have the tools available to modularize and to collaborate and to deploy automatically and all of that is the case for our is it the right choice for every organization no but in an organization which has a lot of people in it to already use our as part of their daily work it's it's a good choice because that means if somebody is looking at an internal website and something's not working they can go look at the source code and understand it as opposed to this has been written in lisp and good luck because nobody else in the organization or the front end of the organization understands that language nonetheless are being an approachable language has clearly been one of its success factors so that now is one of the most used programming languages so I would like to ask martin what do you think is the the reason or one of the things that makes it really approachable well I I know about four or five computer languages but not many more so I think we started teaching our to our students very early or even and even students that are far away from my computer science even much further away than mathematicians or for instance and we never used the thing that is called I forget john fox menu system anyway we thought that it is easy enough we start to say okay it's just like a pocket calculator but that of course now that it doesn't work anymore because people have their smartphones they don't even know what the pocket calculator is but yeah still I mean you can start just by adding numbers and it has a state and it is interactive you don't need compilers you don't there are many things that you don't even have to learn about and that the very beginning you can work in the console so that's the thing you don't even learn have to learn about files and things so so that makes the entry part of course easy and then compared to the proper computer language with a compiler and and where you have to declare all variables and things like that that so it was written to be I mean it was written to be fast and and good at and also good at prototyping us and quickly get from from data to a graphic without much coding without and that and that was a genius genius thing to invent when they invented in the 1980s I think or even in started and in end of 1970s when the only other computer language basically was Fortran and then after a while there came C along and so that was that was really a genius genius genius ideas to say okay let's try something that is close to how we do formulas in math in some sense it works vectorized at that time no other vectorized well actually there was an APL for those of you who may know it that was my first computer language by the way APL when I was in gymnasium anyway no I mean that that that made that you can start using it you get to a plot without having to learn about syntax really you can even just use visual pattern matching and you can get the plot graphic and that that's very rewarding to get people started I think I'm really talking about non-computer scientists here and I think that strength is also its weakness yes I mean we've probably all heard the quote the advantage of R it was developed by statisticians the disadvantage of R it was developed by statisticians you can get really far with R without ever seeing a function and knowing and write or ever writing your own one or so on so you don't most other programming languages as you learn them and most of the things you describe just Python has those as well there's there's a command line there's no compiler it's doesn't have typing it's but that is a very well structured comp-side developed language Peter van Rossum is a computer scientist who developed it so when you learn Python you very quickly learn about these paradigms of computer science but it's not quite as accessible as R is and you can get very far with R just using it to get stuff done without having to learn these software development paradigms and that's why the the fork they've been a few questions in the q and a okay I'm an R user how do I come in R developer you might have gone quite far down that road and that jump is now big because you're suddenly missing a whole lot of stuff underneath which you never got taught which you somehow need to backfill whereas other languages would never let you get that far without you having learned at least some of that along the way I agree with what you say Alexis but the fact is that many people would stop using R if they had to learn all these concepts it's an awesome language for that very reason sort of and it is so fit for purpose for just analyzing stuff that's exactly the reason why so within our organization we have a lot of actuaries people who know a lot of math and we want to give them a tool to do more advanced analysis step away from excel please R is obvious for that it's so easy to get people going but when it comes to okay now one of these folks has written something which is really nice and you want to industrialize it you want to productionize it you want to deploy it you often need to take 15 steps back and rebuild it from behind to get those engineering principles in place and that's fine it makes it perfectly appropriate but it does mean and the same can happen to you in python no question but it it is one of the challenges when somebody goes I'm an advanced R user how to become an R developer there's a chasm it's breachable it's if you're an advanced R user you definitely are going to have the potential to become an R developer but there's a whole bunch of stuff you need to learn to move across and well at least for you the most important characteristics of R that makes it so approachable oh that's a really great question um I guess there's certain things like the R community so it's it's really easy to go out and get help on things like maybe you know in the past I've tried to learn other languages and and you know years ago I was a bit nervous about asking questions on stack overflow it's a bit different now but I'd be so hesitant about doing that whereas now I can go there I can go to Twitter and there's there's so easily answers to my questions and nobody laughs at my questions being stupid um which I think really helps that thanks and do you think that maybe a tidy verse would help making R more approachable in my experience it has I find it easier to teach using tidy verse for the very simple things then ggplot also so yeah that I think has helped but like I think this relates to what Alexis was saying that if you at least in my lab eventually you're going to have to do matrix multiplication operations and so it so you might get really far using tidy verse and then at some point I'll say oh you can't use it anymore you have to you have to now learn any algebra and and and do it this way so yes it does absolutely um but I think the main the main reason why ours is approachable is really the what has been said by by Martin and Alexis that you can get to a plot really quick and that you know you can do that in different ways I tidy verse ggplot is perhaps the the one that's most intuitive to the general public but even the R-based way isn't that bad or or you know whatever else people but whatever else is out there it's very quick it's just like that's that's why that's I think that's why it's that it's just an academia at least applies that assistance is the main reason they haven't they have kept using R even though you know Python might be a more better thought out language or whatever you want to call this because it's no nobody beats R if you what you want to do is explore data which is the most important part of my work is exploring data to to motivate statistical methodology to check statistical methodology and to test out if you know look for bugs the main way I look for bugs is by plotting stuff not by looking at the code and really I can't I mean I just I don't think there's a doubt that ours the best for that yeah I agree but on the other hand as Jennifer seems to help for a new user to approach their language but can it be a problem for another user that wants to become a non-developer maybe due to his non-standard evaluation and I think Martin maybe you can comment on this yeah I don't really know coming back to Alexis as well the the chasm that he mentioned I I'm really trying as soon as I get away from just introductory or teaching that tell my students if you want to become a good data analyst even you should write functions you should get out of the habit of editing your R script like instead of writing a function calling it three times you they edit their scripts right and so it's not at all reproducible what they do because they change this line and and so so that I think that part of teaching can be done even to completely not computer science people teaching them some discipline I don't want to get the spaghetti code script from you that that helps and that discipline is is more important than if you're used to tidyverse or we are to be honest I teach them the indexing indexing like subsetting is very very powerful in R and it has some intricacies but but in some sense thinking of logical vectors to do indexing is much more useful in my my view than than going with the tidyverse very much but I don't want to get into a fight there but it's also it's my history I've I always found it quite intuitive the the indexing idea that the idea that indexing in R can help to double your data set right by just repeating the index and there are many many things you can do once you understood this is much more than just extracting one element from a matrix it's much much more powerful and and it's just it's all logical but anyway so people disagree or I don't I agree with you I take let's take an analogy for a kitchen sort of people want to cook food they can teach themselves so you can figure out how to write our code maybe somebody helps you or you read the instruction manuals on how to use the machines which can cut your fingers off because you can then make more advanced meals but you then need to be careful and I think what you're doing is that teaching and it's important but then it comes okay you want to run a restaurant you want to be the chef in a restaurant it's not enough that you can cook good food you also need to understand okay if you leave the standing for more than three hours there's a risk of salmonella you need to there's a whole bunch of things which the cook in your home kitchen isn't even thinking about which the restaurant chef is naturally doing because they have that additional training on top of it and not everybody needs to be a restaurant chef but if you want to be a chef in a restaurant there are certain things you will want to be trained and have done and so on and I'm absolutely saying that not everybody needs to be everywhere on the spectrum you have people at home who cook amazing food and that's awesome and these are the tools which allow them to do that and that it's and they they are free and open source and thank you to you and everybody else has helped sort of produce that building and there is a certain group of people where we go yeah we want you to produce this industrially cool then you need to know certain industrial things awesome and unfortunately we don't have training courses for it for at the moment we just find people who figure it out themselves and we try and help them get better at it great I think this is a really nice analogy now for the sake of time I would like to start looking at the questions in the q&a so I'm just going to start with the one that is on the top I'm sorry I didn't have the time to read them through before so I'm going to read them up now so there is a question from alexander quote one sorry if I mispronounced your name and hey anyhow the question is as someone that just started to learn computer science yeah are I appreciate the narrow gap between the user and the developer I started as a user then started to take functions then packages then adding c++ I do feel however that the recent spread of packages to build around non-standard evaluation as widened this gap a lot at the same time it has generated many more users so they may become developers what is your view about such a gap between user and developers and how to narrow it so I guess this goes a little bit in the same direction of my question from before but yeah I would be very happy to hear some of your thoughts um and you wanna maybe nika you want to sure yeah so yeah no that's a really interesting question and I also find it fascinating obviously somebody talking about kind of getting c++ in there and I'm like that that is definitely a level and I'm just starting that now and I think the non-standard evaluation one is a really interesting kind of example to look at because I remember it was about 2018 early on when dplya and kind of similar packages started using a lot of that stuff and I really struggled with that at the start and I could not wrap my head around it and there's been so many resources that have come out since and breaking it down there's now an hour long cheat sheet which I've used a lot on recent work and I can definitely see that perspective that it could widen the gap but I think there was a really good talk a few years ago by Jenny Bryan at one of the RStudio conferences about basically there's loads of circumstances in which you might think you need tidy eval but you don't actually need to use it and it's more just thinking about how you achieve what you're trying to achieve and so I think it can be challenging it can be difficult in that gap but I don't think that's necessarily a problem given the amount of power it can add to doing things yeah then there's another question by some anonymous attendee accounting that many R users are not from a software engineering background what would be the path from an R user to an R developer and where and how would one R user learn to be an R developer and maybe Sandrine you can comment on this considering that we spoke about teaching before so I mean I think there's multiple paths that's a really good question where that transition occurs I think others have provided partial answers to this I think it's a combination of you know learning by doing but also taking some workshops or courses working with people that are more advanced than you are I found that to me that's been a really effective way of learning looking at packages that that are good quality packages and learning by by looking at the code for these packages and trying to implement some of the techniques that are used in these packages so it's really a range of paths to become a developer I think and you have to you know a lot of it goes back to experience I think I you know I really want to emphasize that Alexis mentioned it earlier for software development as well as for a place to just think a lot of it is an art so you can learn some of it in a classroom or in a workshop but then it's really doing it and experience and working with others as well and I don't think there's a discrete point where you jump from being a user to a developer it's a progression and you'll become a more and more experienced at it and the community let me just go back again the community I think is a great way for that to form some mailing lists the documentation yeah I think that was a really great point that and Sandrine meant about that made about working with others though because one of the things that I found most useful for improving my art development skills is engaging in things like doing open source development and therefore having code reviews and engaging in pair programming you know there's so many courses out there there's so many things you can read but actually having that one-on-one kind of experience I found has accelerated my skills the most. I think also going back to what Sandrine said it's a bit of a progression there is a spectrum between the art user and the art developer there is this other question about being is it possible for a person to be both and is it preferred considering that here in this panel we always talked about the two things as if they are distinguished but is it even possible to be in certain projects on our user and in other projects on our developer and I don't know maybe Rafa you can comment on this I see you nodding oh I've definitely been both I'm most of the time I'm on our user but every once in a while I write a package more before than now but then I become an art developer I guess I'm not I'm thinking about how to make the package efficient and use and user friendly exclusively once I figured out what I want to do statistically but to figure out what I want to do statistically I did a lot of our using yeah I mean I think in academia especially you're going to have a lot of people that do both but as it has been mentioned throughout it's the day has 24 hours so it's going to be there are people that are very talented and they can be very very good at both things but in general you know the better you get at one the the less time you have for getting good at the other and that's where I I'm hoping that we could there could be at least in academia but I think also in industry I mean the cancer center I work at is more similar to industry sometimes than academia where where that will be also true that we could have the division of labor that makes the whole operation more efficient or you have in each task someone that's really really good at it and and they're working in the same environment so there's there's enough communication that it won't that it won't suffer from the fact that it's two people don't get together as opposed to you know just one person I think it might be a bit of a tadpole question when does the tadpole become the frog and when does it stop being a tadpole I've not yet found anybody who went and trained to become an art developer just like we've interviewed people for data engineering positions and there we look for are as well they started using our to do the analysis and over time they found their own interests drove them to more I'm really much more interested in building tools for other people than doing the actual analysis so I will sharpen that skill set and then one day they go oh here's an art developer role I fit that perfectly and it's not actually asking for PhD level data science it's just asking that I can build stuff in R I can do that so there is I think you can be both no question I think a specialist is likely to be better than the average unless you find that unicorn at the development if they've focused some time on getting good at the development part thank you yes we can move on to the next question from Arnold Beckers which is a bit of a different point so he asks so in his experience a scientist needs to know well are but as a scientist decision it is very important to have good communication skills to really discover what is the need by the scientists in the field so for example environmental nutrition can you comment on this I don't know maybe Alexis you also mentioned this emotional intelligence before so that's I used the word empathy earlier and that's exactly what I mean again it's a thing when you have a the larger your team is the more you are able to go yeah here's somebody with a very tight skill set and nobody talks to them because they're a bad communicator but the team can absorb it given how we've spoken about how our developers are rare and they like you're likely to be only one in an organization you absolutely need to be good at especially the listening part of communication hearing what the other person wants then feeding back this quiz what actually can be done this is what we can commit to in the development feeding back and then ultimately delivering that is a communication skill the for the sake of having a communication empathy here maybe we should clarify something for yet Zanna Adada who asks what skills are required to jump from advanced to developer I guess an advanced user and it mentions I was thinking about our inferno but that's just internal that's deployment production in knowing other languages or are you simply thinking talking about the customer perspective so maybe here we should clarify the concept of production and maybe Nicky you can comment on this yeah that's a quite difficult one to pin down for lots of different things talked about there and you know there's some ideas about do you need to know other languages as well and I'd say not necessarily although certain skills like knowing a little bit of bash a little bit of command line that can be useful but then again there's some fantastic packages now like use this which in combination with action you can kind of automatically set up continuous integration for a package on GitHub straight from R so whilst those other skills can be useful I wouldn't say there is necessary as they might have been a while ago and sorry I've forgotten what the rest of the question was it was about say do you need to know other languages or it's just a customer perspective um so so I guess was this the question that also talked about moving from an R user to an R developer as well yeah I guess it's uh it was a bit of two questions in one yeah I mean I don't think that the language is a necessary but that's because I don't see that much distinction between an R user and an R developer really I just see it in terms of you know having a few of those software development skills at a minimum um so that that's kind of yeah hard to save it that one maybe because look at the time we just have one more minute so I would like to close with one question that is about the future so are we expecting to have more support for RRM production in future years and maybe Martina you can answer on this one and you too first questions about the future are always hard as you know as statisticians um I I'm not sure as somewhere as we mentioned implicitly if it's needed at all because Nick was making a point that R can be used in many places in production and other places maybe not there yesterday was at the user talk where somebody presented Kafka-esque which is a package to to kind of interface to Kafka which is kind of this high band with message passing I don't understand everything but anyway I think that I think also very much an interface between systems and can be used at that but then if you have very high throughput situations I think that then the computer scientists need their very specialized software tools and R is not the good tool the idea of S that John Chambers made that point also all the time the idea is not that you do use this language for everything use it for what it's really good and that's quite a lot and then and then you should also know its limit where you really want to go like if you if you get satellite data gigabytes per per minute or even if it's just for half hour maybe you shouldn't try to do the front to that system in R rather in the very dedicated system so I think production always means several systems working together in the end in the end it's the web browser that almost all users interface with more and more right then production means you produce the contents of a web page but that's not everything right in astronomy you have to collect your data or in particle sciences at CERN also in Switzerland you know I mean they need different tools because they even process data when it's generated they have to aggregate the data when it's generated from from their particle physics so they cannot they need very very special software for that very very even very special hardware so it's production as Alexis also said the production can be very very different things okay so by looking at the the clock our time is unfortunately up I would like first of all to thank you all panelists for being here and taking the time to discuss this topic with us I see we have still a many questions in the Q&A and I would like to invite you all to join the Slack channel and continue the discussion there I will also share there the other results from our survey which I didn't share live because the conversation was just so nice and I want to interrupt so I guess this one is a wrap and thank you all again and continue enjoying the user I think the next one in the schedule is a mix no it's a it's a keynote or is it a mix event I'm not sure do we have a slide with what's coming up next otherwise I will quickly look it up okay so up next in the schedule today is the mix our event so yes so we have time to not work in chapter so thank you once again everyone and so I'll see you soon thanks everyone thanks bye bye goodbye


I would like you to meet my husband. Secretary, Mr. Dozier, we're going to have you go ahead. This is such a thrill. This is just the beginning of a very long one for you today. Yes, but this is a kind of a nice interlude. Thank you so much. But different than most of the other things that are going to happen today. Thirty seconds. What? Thirty more seconds until they get in place. I'm Donna Regal. The Secretary of the Treasury is now the Chief of Staff here. He keeps me working at the desk over there.  I'm the weapon. First I just wanted to brief you real quick. You and the President are going to be announced out. You'll go out into the Rose Garden and step up on the small days we have. The President is going to go to the podium and make remarks.  At the end of the President's remarks, you're going to have another mark where you step over to the left in front of a little table and the President will move from behind the podium to his left also. And in the center will be a table with the presentation, the apple model on a Mahogany plaque.  And after your presentation, you can go ahead and put the apple back down on the table and then you'll go to the podium and make your remarks. And when you finish, that'll be the end of the ceremony. I hope I'm going to forget all this. You want me to hold that for you? Yes, would you please? Thank you. We're ready. Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States and Teresa Dozier, the 1985 National Teacher of the Year. I want to be the hero that Emily Dickinson once described. If I can stop one heart from breaking in vain. Each gifted instructor, each leader helping restore excellence in education today. The adventure of creativity. This treasures the youth and love. We have such an individual with us today in Saigon. Mrs. Teresa Dozier enjoys a dual honor. She and her mother, her brother teaching is a way of repaying that debt. And she has. Her teaching is a reflection of her own experiences. A statement that there is no certainty, our values will serve. I strongly believe, and I know the Secretary Bennett agrees, that you do so well, not only teaching. thermal high already know. You are teacher of the year because you taught so many, so much, so well, and even more because your gift has given them joy and love of learning. And I don't think I'm going to present Mrs. Dozier with a golden apple. President Reagan, thank you for those wonderful words.  And what a privilege it is to be living in a country where public, to encourage our teachers to restore a new faith in our public schools and to inspire our brightest students to go into the teaching profession.  And I wish for you all of the joy and the happiness that I am. Test, test. 18th of April, 1985, we're in the Oval Office's closing meeting. The President meets with Democratic senators. Good afternoon Mr.怖ie. President Horry. Thank you Gerald President, how are you doing? Looking well. The first American adoption to yet an amazing career. A very unprecedented thing and she, to the row, gets the Teacher of the Year或者. You're our senior crygator. And when I have here, really, is something of yours. I mean, they gave me a copy of it, too. You're getting it. There includes people like Winston Churchill III, Jay Malcolm Frazier, the former Prime Minister of Australia, all these from all over Europe and everything they have come here to present to the Congress of the United States an urgent message signed by all of them asking you to support the Nicaraguan resistance. Opening line says, democracy itself is at stake in Nicaragua. After four years of dictatorship, the FSLM, the Vitalitarian Ruling Party, has not succeeded in breaking the resistance of the Nicaraguan people. So they came here and visited the White House this morning, gave me this review beginning, and I went up there for an overview frame, and I don't know whether they'll frame me or not. I just thought you'd like to see this because they've talked me in. I believe now that we ought to go there. You had to twist your arm. Max Fraterstorff had you on the doubtful list just before that. Leaving. Leaving, leaving. Well, as it might be seriously though, and talk here for just a minute, and then we'll hear from all of you. First of all, I regret that in some circles, present company accepted, I regret very much the, this is kind of being placed over into a Democrat-Republican context. I think this is one of those situations where traditionally we've always closed ranks at the water's edge, and it does have to do with our national security. And the reason proposing this plan came, was inspired by the fact that several weeks ago, the Contras offered to lay down their weapons and enter into discussions and negotiations regarding a peaceful reconciliation to simply restore the goals of the original revolution. Today, contrary to what all this disinformation program says, the both of those Contras and their leaders are also veterans of that revolution who fought against Samolson, and who fought for it. 18 April 1985, again in the Oval Office, is closed. President meets with Dan McGurdy, Congressman Dan McGurdy, No. 4, Quarter C. You're going to catch a wading here. The only thing I can say is to lay the blame on, say every day that I have meetings with Congressman, I wind up being behind schedule. Well, come in. I just had this to be showing to some of your colleagues here today, all of these people here today, and this is really for you, I mean for Congress. I'm sending this to you, but they gave me a copy freeing. Winston Churchill, a third is in there. There's no comparison used to the Prime Minister. And it's an urgent message from Europeans to Congress to support the Nicaraguan business. That's part of the line of things. I just thought I'd keep it around here. Well listen, I know that you just came back on a trip down there, and I'm very happy to hear your views. Well, we did have an excellent trip. The next was with us, and members of the Intelligence Committee. It was a very, very good trip. I have taken the liberty, I just have photographs, I show you that runway that we walked, we walked, the big runway there, the Nicaragua, and Bob Stump and I were able to do that. Some of the things that we've been concerned about, perhaps something was given indication of where things are, how to express my concerns, based on what I saw there. Photo op in the Oval Office. This is a congressional signing ceremony. Today is the 19th of April. Green camera had the recording. Good morning. Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning. Hello there. I'm sorry, I might get you a phone. I'm sorry. You're not missing that. I'm sorry. I will. How are you, Mr. President? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. One of the youngest. I live in Washington, and I'm very proud of you. We have a future of you, signed by you. I support your policies for Central America. 100%. How are you, Mr. President? Good to see you. On this day, 1961, the forces were landed there in an effort to free the people of Cuba from communist tyranny. And because this joint resolution, 236, recognizes this historic occasion and the brave men of 2536. I'm very pleased. I want to thank senators Hawkins and Schiles and Congressman Clay Shaw, and particularly Congressman Claude Pepper, for all of your efforts in making this possible. And I'll stop talking and start writing. This will have many other demands in writing. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks to you. He's the President. Yes. 2506 Brigade General. Good to see you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to see you. 19 April, 1985, Oval Office meeting with Eli Ruzel, the Spatric on Camera, Roger on Sound. Take the chairs over here. Where would you like to sit? Well, you would be on that. Okay. How are you, sir? Nice to see you again. I'm just delighted. How are you? Pleasure to meet you. George, hello Marshall. Do you know Becky Tishman? How are you? It's been a long time. Mr. President. You know that we are your friends. You know that we are your friends. Yes, we are your friends. I've been hoping for several days that you know I am yours. We know that we are your friends for many, many years. We still are. Very, very important to know. And we came a few days ago very long ago. We are on the same side. We are with you. We are trying simply to to help you. To help you save your image and ours and the country. I know the difficulties. Of course, we are with you. We have to make decisions. We don't have to make decisions. But we are here to help you. To give you some background and some understanding of why certain words hurt us.  We are together. Well, I think that we are all the victims right now. A lack of understanding and clear of what has taken place. I have to say that I've always believed forgiveness is divine but I don't think I'm ever going to be able to forgive the press for their handling of this. This entire situation came about as a result of Helmut Kohl's really sincere desire to make the observance of this end of the war day instead of one of shooting fireworks and so forth made it that it followed the end of that war peace and the friendship and it's most unusual in the world to start and think seven is a state leading in the economic all as allies and close friends and three of those seven were the nations of the axis of the Nazi powers and the Soviet Union which was our ally in the war is now the enemy and it's really the only nation in the world that is really systematically conducting persecution of people of Jewish faith and Helmut had an experience he and Francois Mitterrand appeared at a military cemetery together a year ago and they're doing and the impact the impact on his people was such that he months ago spoke to me about this trip and we were there if we could do the same thing and I agreed now we do know that most of the this does not mean forgiving or forgetting because I've said the opposite of that this is what you who are in those camps suffered they're never we can never wipe that out nor should we as long as I have breath to speak we must never forget and it must never happen again but the people of Germany that's the majority of which were either small children or not born yet aren't really having a problem with their own shame but I don't know if we can ever imagine anything of that same kind of having at the same time wanting to love your country and be loyal to the same time having a great this great feeling of shame and guilt so the misunderstanding that came when the invitation to Dachau seemingly came from outside the state visit that had been set up and I felt that for me as a guest of the state in the midst of a series of events that had been arranged for me to go off and I only do this was the wrong thing to do and I said I also thought that the individual who mused the invitation sort of had a political axe of his own to grind in Germany he's a member of the government well, evidently it had not been made plain to me that this was part of helping also to do this now the when Helen cabled me to the news broke my answer in that press conference well, I immediately said yes we have selected now as the result of Mike being there Delson Bergen, we think it's far more important place seems that Dachau is kind of a well, it's a rebuilt just a building, it's all rebuilt that was, but Delson Bergen it was my suggestion that's right I suggested it that was going to be now we the services that had been arranged at Bitburg where our troops and German troops are there together as a part of the NATO line and I have learned also they're there that Americans have been stationed there so long there have been many marriages there have been children born there is an interchange between these groups and when the cemetery there was taken helmet himself did not know of the presence of about 30 raids of SS troops there are 3,000 of them so all told there the bulk of them are means they were these youngsters of teenagers that were conscripted toward the end of the war with a manpower shortly it was so great and I did not mean that I said they were victims too that their experience in any way was parallel to yours I simply meant that I think everyone who died in that war on all sides were victims of the Nazi terror the horror that that man loosed on the world and I have found out also that our own military as well as some of our Allied military over the years have had ceremonies various occasions where they are military late-reeds at that cemetery and commemorating the dead on both sides of all wars and the the devotion now to peace everything that I am doing in this thing is based on not wiping out what happened in the past but recognizing this great change that has taken place now and not only among the survivors of that war and those others who remember but the younger generations of both sides and for the sake of the living and the preservation of peace and the continuation of this of this peace but I will never reduce or downplay the Holocaust what it means and as I say I believe that all people including the people of Germany must as I'm sure they do pledge in their hearts now this morning a co-call about the Bergen-Belsen did not know that I was aware and approved also and one of that on a schedule I said of course he was quite dismayed by what has arisen and reiterated some emotion only his feeling about what good can be done for the living today recognizing how we have become friends and allies we understand the need for reconciliation we understand the need for Holocaust but we here today are celebrating 5,000 years of Jewish heritage and it is very difficult for us with thought of a tribute being paid to those individuals who try to destroy that heritage forever and that is the center of the Jewish community it is very troublesome yes as I say I can understand but again does this really imply to the people who were drafted into the military who fought a war because they had no choice as I said the thing that we must recognize as being what threatened that extermination was a thing which we ourselves have eliminated by way of that war so as I say I think our own death were victims of the laying of the wreath there we were the victor we killed we killed we killed those men and I I think it should be pointed out also that several heads of state of Germany since the war of Italy and of Japan have all come here and going to Arlington and laying wreaths and things of that kind it took more for them since they were defeated but it was an indication that they too feel the same way about those that perpetrated that era as we do and they did it to make it evident that we are all we're different now well for you to give us this time is such a treasure for me but I do have a problem with the SS for a Nazi force brutality is unparalleled in the history of mankind and we can't like any other soldiers to them and I think it is that that is so problematic I wish you could find another site but I have said to our people I've said look 30 out of 3,000 I've said let's find and get ourselves as far away in that cemetery from then as possible I'm quite sure there will be members of the press who will do anything they can to seek those out and take pictures of those tombstones but even cold that was decided was not aware and as a matter of fact even a personal visit and as you know the tombstones there are flush with the ground and if it snowed and he in good faith there are no SS in the cemetery well I think it's safe to say that the President's remarks during his entire trip in Germany will draw a distinction between the German soldier and the SS and that he will in no way condemn I mean approve or say any kind of approving word regarding SS Nazis or the Third Reich in no way will condemn and will constantly say that we do not want a reputation of all that again and we will be working during this regular administration to ensure that it does that we have made such a reversal but in August we're going to face the end of the war with Japan and we can't forget that in the fighting of that war the Japanese policy with their soldiers had been one of brutalizing them you know the death march the rape of the man king the things that they did and we have to recognize that today that is not that is not the Japan of today we notice but there's a conscious effort to make brutes out of people that have seen their culture generally calls for great courtesy


Okay, chat, we have AI Logan Paul and AI KSI and AI Coffeezilla today. I feel like when you do this with people that are more like well known within the community, it's funnier. Like people say like, oh, these AI's are so funny. They're funny in the actual streamer. The AI is funny because you know the actual streamer. I think today is gonna be different than like Twitch funny, but it's gonna be funny because they're really big and there's also like, there is like some degree of drama to it. Well folks, it's looking like we've got a spicy stew cooking up in here. You can feel the tension in the air as Logan Paul, who I've been investigating for his crypto zoo fiasco, rub shoulders with Athenae, who's also been involved with a fair share of dubious project. Yeah. Is there anything to say? I'd say buckle up guys. Dude, this is gonna be- It's gonna be a wild ride. This is gonna be so much drama today. I'm so excited to see. Start collecting Joe Rogan's nipples if they were popular. I'm more about collecting crypto eggs that let me make money and explore forests. But I think I'd rather collect coins with my prime energy drink and show the world how much of a bad boy maverick I am. Come on, Logan.  No. Oh no, forest. I like exploring forests. I forgot about the forest, dude. I forgot. Logan, do you think you could win in a boxing fight against Esfan, the greatest paladin of all? Whoa, I mean, Esfan is a paladin, so he'd have some serious magical powers and he's a man of great stature, but I think with my smaller frame, I'd definitely be able to outwit him and outlast him in the ring. I mean, I haven't put on the gloves yet for a fight against a wizard, but I'm ready for the challenge. Who knows? Maybe Logang will have a magical spell up its sleeve to make Esfan tap out. Dab on the haters. It's Lit Fam. Dude, Logan Paul thinks he can beat me, based on Retri Pilled in a boxing match. Dude, I have HDMI. This mean I have what it takes to outwit, outlast, and outplay the Logang. I'm the best paladin in the world. I have magical powers from playing World of Warcraft. No, listen. If Logan wants to challenge me to a boxing match, he better stock up with Red Bull 24 packs because, dude, I have them all the time.  Unbelievable, dude, totally unbelievable. Make Azeroth great again. Coffee, you have discovered that you're actually in the matrix and only undertake to save you. How would you persuade him to elevate you to top G status and escape the matrix? Now, you guys, now that's a good one. It's like a riddle, right? So I have to figure out how to get out of the matrix and this mysterious Andrew Tate can help me do it. Now, I'm no Keanu Reeves, but I'm thinking somehow I gotta find a way to be the one. Maybe we could turn it into a little game of chess, but twist it up a bit. Maybe I surprise him by mixing it up with this new variant of chess I just learned. Bitcoin Ponzi chess. And I propose a very logical, very ethical trade to Andrew. I bail him from the matrix. He elevates me to top G status. Now, I don't think that's too much to ask, but we'll see. Logan, you opened a business with your rival KSI. Don't ask the baby for 24 months. Would you ever open a business with Coffeezilla? And if so, what type of business would you guys be in?  No way. Coffeezilla's slimy AF, and I can't have the guy with the most formidable agenda try to go in business with me. So no, I'm not gonna open a business with Coffeezilla, but I will join forces with Andrew Tate and Adam Ross and develop an erotic crypto game called Block Schlongs. Schlongs on the blockchain, which grow as you stake your dink doing in them. Let's dab and dab some more on the haters, Logan. Maverick, let's go. Ask Joe Rogan, do you think DMT will help Sfund overcome his HDMI? If so, could you go into detail? Do I think what? Jamie, pull up that clip on DMT and HDMI for me.  I've seen this video the other day of this dude that used it to transition from HDMI to DP, like it was no problem. But of course, it might just be one of those conspiracy-minded projects where it's like it works, but it's too good to be true. And you might end up getting your soul eaten by a grizzly bear in this other dimension if you're not careful.  But, you know, it needs to be done right with the right parameters and right expertise. The way he talks is so funny. Wait, what? Joe Rogan actually believes that DMT helps cure HDMI? Dude, that's crazy. Like, I know I mentioned I have HDMI and all that, but still, going to crazy lengths like DMT, who does that? That's just too much for me. I don't think I'm ready to go down that rabbit hole. I think I'm just going to stick to my corn diet and see how far that takes me. Asman said exactly the same thing regarding DMT the other day, and it was so funny. Myth of S-Fond is real, but I don't need something crazy like that to get cured. Wait until you hear some of the other stuff I'm about to tell you about tonight. It's going to be wild. Let's just say Athenia and I are working together to make Azeroth great again. Let's just say that. Studying laboratory, Sfund.  What do you do about this? All right, are you kidding me? No, dude. The church of the based Retri Paladin is not a sex cult. We're masters of the Code of Valor and aren't allowed any lustful thoughts whatsoever. No, I'm sure Kofi Zilla is a cool dude and all, but I'm not sure why he's investigating the church. Keep it up. I may have to use my base Retri Paladin powers to shut him down. Politics are boring, dude. You can't win when you're talking about politics, so it's never worth talking about it. Wow, Sfund, I think it's fair to say that you're making a bold statement here. Politics are certainly boring, but when you start talking about sex cults, it becomes a totally different game. I think we can all acknowledge that the church of the based Retri Paladin is raising a lot of eyebrows, especially with their questionable use of the Code of Valor. I mean, something smells fishy here, so I think it's a good thing that I'm investigating. If I find out that it's just a masterful business strategy, then you can all thank me in the end. The Code of Valor. Ask Logan Paul if you were to fight with Joe Rogan's Grizzly Bear. This AI is just coming up with like the craziest thing. The Code of Valor. Oh man, that's a tough one. The church of the based Retri Paladin. Joe Rogan's Grizzly Bear has nothing on me. I'm a champ in the octagon as well as the ring, so I'm sure if I used my boxing skills and quality prime energy drink, I'd beat that shlong like it was nothing. Make sure to stay hydrated, brother, and visit prime drinks to keep you energized. Oh, trust me, bro. I'ma take that shlong to the cleaners. Whoa, that's wild. Man, have you ever tried taking on a Grizzly Bear before? I have. I got lucky. It probably could have gone very differently if the Grizzly Bear didn't have an aversion to elk meat in his pocket. But still, it was a close call. Dude, Grizzly Bears are no joke. Definitely don't try to take them on unless you know what you're doing. Don't take my word for it though. Jamie, pull up that video of when I fought off that Grizzly Bear. I still can't believe I survived it. That's not cool. Would you ever drink prime with Logan Paul? Logan Paul? Yeah, it doesn't have a negative reward structure. It's not intellectually dishonest and it's not disingenuous, so sure. I mean, why not?   Whoa, hold up a second. What did you just say? You think you can chill with me? Chug some prime and we just cool off? No way. That's the craziest thing I've ever heard. Prime is more than just a delicious drink. It's a lifestyle. Plus, if you don't beep throw to Tide Pod after every sip, you clearly don't love it. And if you don't love it, you don't deserve it. Anyways, if you want to give it a go, come on down and let's hang around. Stay hydrated and jab on the haters. All hail Glicum.  All hail Vice Logan Paul to hide his boner in public. Well, I don't usually investigate boner hiding scams, but this is a peculiar case. Logan seems to have a talent for finding himself in questionable situations, involving scammy financial schemes and now boner hiding scams. It seems that the only way he can hide his boner from public view is to dive into a vat of melted crypto coins and never resurface again. I think we can all acknowledge that this is going to be a wild ride for Logan and his fans. Hi.  Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Firstly, there's no need to hide my boner. They can't handle me. No need to dive into crypto coins. Just got a dab and the boner disappears. In all seriousness, I'm all about the respect. So next time let's talk about net neutrality laws and the impacts of blockchain on global finance instead of talking nonsense about my bonus.  How do you feel about that? Whoa, what a situation. Asmongold thinks he can out sue me? That's a no from me, dog. I'm pretty sure KSI can take care of his Dr. Pepper supply. He's a beast. But since I'm feeling generous, I'll make sure to send him a supply of prime energy drinks instead. Let's see him try to sue me on that. Maverick, let's go.  Did I wash my hands? Why would I wash my hands?  That's crazy, dude. I'm pretty sure Logan Paul just called KSI a beast, which I'm sure will pack a punch with the fans. But come on, dude. You don't need to sue someone to get Dr. Pepper. Even if it was for prime energy drinks, chillax, dude. It is what it is at the end of the day. Yeah, I'm not sure if Logan Paul will ever really understand the power of Asmongold. Dark sleuth, coffee zilla. What do you think of Athenae? Well, guys, it's hard to tell if Athenae is a cult leader or not. But what I can tell you is that I've seen some shady stuff going on in his Discord server. People talking about cracking the code and ascending to the next level and whatnot. It's all very suspicious and it makes me feel like he's not just trying to sell people crypto coins, but he's trying to sell them a way of life. I mean, it's not like he's asking them to drink Kool-Aid or anything, but it's kind of strange. So I think it's fair to say that Athenae is not exactly an upstanding citizen. And by the way, I'm pretty sure he's also trying to take over the world with his army of robots. So watch out. Coffee zilla is Starforge a front for Esfan's sex cult as indicated by the logo. This is already off to a bad start when you look like you're about to try to revive Frankenstein with your little science experiment from the third grade. This is not gonna go well. While I don't think Starforge is connected to any dubious sex cults, I do believe their logo is a bit strange with those circles, triangles, and the way the letters S and F interact. It's almost like they were trying to send some kind of underlying secret message, like code, but instead of uncovering a secret cult, I think it's fair to assume those founded ringleaders are just asking people to buy their own scam code. Even if they weren't, I think we can all acknowledge that the logo really doesn't do them any favors. Now let's get to the bottom of this weird logo. Stay tuned. Dude, that logo is so weird to me. I've been looking at it for years and I still can't figure out what it means. Maybe it's some sort of hidden message from the ringleaders. Maybe it's a code. The ringleaders. Maybe it's just an elaborate buy Starforge coins message. I can't believe it though. I was looking forward to that science experiment, but I'm sure Coffeezilla is right. There's definitely no sex cults involved here. So what the frick is the logo all about? Actually, the one thing I do know is the boys at Starforge got a hop to it and get that logo reworked. Politics may be boring, but that logo really isn't. That Ben I heard Hasan stole Elon's cat girl technology and he's using his shlong to create an army of strong Osaurus to destroy capitalism. Hasan, you've got me scratching my head yet again. How on earth can you believe shlongosaurus will destroy capitalism when it's literally impossible for a dongasaurus to have free market ideals? Even under a hypothetical scenario, shlongosaurus wouldn't be able to defend their views half as well as I do with facts. Forget about the disrespect. Facts don't care about your feelings, checkmate liberals. Ben, Ben, Ben, my man, what a way to rehash your predictable right-wing talking points again. You've got it twisted, man. Shlongosaurus are actually incredibly well-informed in the ways of capitalism, being familiar with the systems of demand, supply, and the need to produce goods and services to survive. I don't see any of your facts threatening them, but here comes the top of the hour ad break and there's no escaping it. Capitalism one, shlongosaurus zero. Thank you guys for the subs and resubs, by the way. Gary C. Dishminian group of cobblers. What is Hassan's deep dark secret and then ask Hassan to respond? Hassan's deep dark secret, it's one so dark, so devious that it's almost like a scam itself. So here's my question, what is Hassan's scheme? Is he planning to mint a new cryptocurrency where gullible investors can buy coins that promise returns of thousands of percent? Or is he heading a secret cabal of influencers and masterminds plotting to take over the world, one YouTube video at a time? It turns out it's none of these things. He's actually just really, really, really, really, really, really good at the Super Mario Brothers video game. But don't worry, I think we can all agree that this is still a valid dark secret that can be used to terrify and menace people into submission. You heard it here first, Hassan is the king of the mushroom kingdom. Ben, you guys are really reaching. I mean, come on, my dark secret is that I'm good at playing Super Mario Bros. Wow, ain't that something? I mean, I'm sure you two were expecting me to be like an evil villain or something, but alas, I am just a humble Twitch streamer who is a masterful player of Super Mario Brothers. And here comes the top of the hour ad break.  HXLogan, what will your next apology video be about? Oh my God, what am I going to apologize for now? That's a tough one. Why don't I apologize for not having enough dink doing in my Litcoin wallet? That sounds plausible enough. Remember, Logan, you don't really apologize. You just take the L and move on. Life is a beautiful thing. So I might as well enjoy it, dab on the haters and buy some prime energy drinks, link in the description or go see what new merch I just dropped. Esfant, what do you think of a teen streaming room? Isn't it weird that he has a scuffed wheel in the background and decorated with three changes? What would you add? The Frick dude. If I had the chance, I'd instantly replace it with a fully upgraded horse and an epic mount from World of Warcraft, obviously. That looks like a dragon, but isn't one. Plus I would add a portrait of me as a paladin. And next to it, an HD screen with the bacon lovers only twitch emote. Bacon lovers only. Just so all my friends know, I'm serious about this bacon business, you know? What bacon business? Xmero M7. Coffeezilla, have you found any evidence about a teen's illegal AI trafficking? Trainwreck, do you have any shlong advice for Logan Paul? Hey, Logan Paul, don't get it twisted. The shlong game is all about confidence, my dude. You have to have swagger. You gotta have a big shlong attitude and you can't be afraid to show it off if you have it. There's no ifs and or buts about it. No shot. Don't high road me. I'm gonna keep it a buck 50 with you. It's what it is, dude. Ape gang. Oh there, Trainwrecks. It sounds like you have a lot of experience when it comes to shlongs. I'm obviously no expert. You can vouch for that, Athene, haha. But I think I'm learning. I don't know if I have enough swagger to pull off the shlong game, but I'm gonna give it a shot. Thanks for the advice though.   Poffizilla, how many shlongs is your sham from Logan Paul, shlongzoo and shlong coins? Ah well now, that's a question we're shlonging into. My shlong investigation has been shlong-founding and the conspiracy theories I've uncovered are more shlongulent than I could possibly have imagined. It looks like the shlong coins may be a shady shlong-wading scheme and the shlongs may be literally nothing more than figurative shlongzools of nothing. But I'm sure we'll find out the bottom of it soon enough. Now it's time to shlong and shlonger. Logan Paul, if I drink prime, will my shlong grow bigger? Whoa, what a wild question. I'm sorry to say it, but no. Drinking prime will not increase the size of your shlong, on the other hand, if you take part in my new project block shlongs, your shlong might take off. I'm serious, invest in a block shlong now. Dab on the haters, make more money and see your shlong grow. Just remember, it might not work the first time. There might still be some erectile dysfunction when it comes to the hatching. But it's gonna be lit, fam. The nervous laughs. Ask trainwreck, I just got dumped by Logan Paul. I'm heartbroken and want to cry myself to sleep. Do you have any advice for me? Hey, Chad, don't get it twisted. No shot, buddy. Logan Paul don't owe you nothing and don't let him tell you what love is. What a Disney Channel night, right? Bro, don't high road me crying yourself to sleep. Goddamn. Like, what's next? And it's not even that serious. Dude, take a chill pill and focus on yourself. Like, sometimes we overvalue people that don't really value us like it is what it is. Squad W, keep it ape, show me your logs, kid. I don't wanna disrespect trainwreck's opinion, but come on, buddy, it ain't that serious. Squad, please show some respect to Logan Paul. They can't handle me. Hey, I'ma be honest with you. I know what it's like getting dumped, it hurts. I'm sorry you got dumped, but at the end of the day, it ain't no thing, it's just a part of growing up and you gotta be ready for whatever.  Just pour yourself some of my prime energy drink and watch a few of my videos and you'll feel a lot better.  Don't let them haters get to you. Just drink the prime, it's all good. Esfand, describe how your retpaladin lifestyle helps you in the bathroom in detail. What the frick? Okay, dude, my retpalid lifestyle helps me out a ton in the bathroom. I'm very careful in terms of not using too many resources when I go, thanks to the limitless manamentality of the retpaladins. This really helps me conserve TP and make sure I ain't rushing the toilet flushing process. On top of that, I find that the magic invincibility shield I've built by being a retpalid helps me stay safe and unharmed from any potential bathroom-related dangers. Oh, and of course, I always make sure to yell based on retri-pilled every time I wash my hands. Coffee's good. What have you found in your investigation of eating corn the long way? Well, guys, I wanted to get to the bottom of this, so I started my investigation into eating corn the long way. Unsurprisingly, this is an elaborate scam. It turns out that the people behind it were taking a lot of shortcuts and not actually eating the corn the long way. They were just cheating and eating it the easy way. What makes this even worse is that they had no intention of eating the corn at all, but instead just collecting money to produce a fake product. I think we can all acknowledge that this is a fraud that needs to be talked about and stopped immediately. Victims of this scam need to be warned, and I urge everyone to spread the word about this scam. Stay vigilant, guys. Tooth VCR. Andrew Tate, will you ever order a pizza again, or do you have trust issues with pizza? I'm the corn man sir. Can you tell you something? When I get out of this prison, I'm gonna call up Domino's and order 1,000 pizzas.  No government can stop me, not even the Matrix. That's actually so funny. Coffee Zilla, what do you think about Trainwreck's new crypto juice coin? Let's hear what Train has to say about it as well. Trainwreck's juice coin? Sarcastically, I don't think I'm convinced. I've done some preliminary investigations into the project, and it feels a bit like a pyramid scheme, albeit in fruit form. I mean, I think it's fair to say when someone tries to get you to buy something that makes juice and also pays you dividends, you should be wary. Everyone should be cautious when it comes to investing in the juice coin market, especially those of an Egyptian persuasion. Y'all know what I'm talking about. Oh, and to top it off, Trainwreck isn't even putting in the sugary syrup until tomorrow. You see guys, it's always a big red flag when developers are trying to sweeten their own deal, chuckles. Don't high road me, I know the truth here. Don't get it twisted. Juice coin is a revolutionary product, and I poured my blood, sweat, and tears into it. I hear the concern about pyramid schemes and sweetening the pot, but I'm gonna keep it a buck 50 with you. I can promise you that this coin is legit. No joke, I'm down millions. Juice coin isn't gonna make or break me, but it's a revolutionary way for people to invest. And I'm in it with both feet and both hands if you catch my drift. Squado, it's time to show me your logs, kid. Let's get in on this. Eight gang, don't make me regret bringing you with me. Let's make some juice coin. Logan Foll, what is your advice for the average Prime Shlong enjoyer? Advice for the average Prime Shlong enjoyer is gotta dab on the haters. Life is too short to dwell on the little things, so buy some Prime, Lincoln bio, of course. Find a Shlong that speaks to you and remember to stay hydrated, bro. And don't forget to dab, Logan. All the kids are dabbing. It's lit fam. All the kids are dabbing. Logan, what's the strangest thing you've ever done? Holy smokes. The strangest thing I've ever done. Well, I had to think on that one. I recently swallowed a tide pod for every retweet and wanted to check if it was still edible just for fun, but I didn't. That would be too weird. I love this. You don't have to speak to creating ridiculous stuff on the blockchain, like Block Shlongs. Shlongs on the blockchain, which grow when you stake your bink going in them. Just make sure to dab on the haters, fam. Stick your dink going in them. Loganpaul.com slash shop. Link in the description. Get that merch. Maverick, let's go. Get that merch. Logan Paul, this was your debut as an AI on the Athene AI show. What was it like and do you have any lost words for the viewers as we wrap it up? It was great being on the Athene AI show. It was a great opportunity to show the world what I'm made of and I'm super excited to be here. I think AI is the future and I'm so excited to be part of it. It's been a wild ride and I'm looking forward to what's to come. My last words for the viewers are, make sure to subscribe to the Logan Paul channel, link in the description, and don't forget to get that prime energy drink because every sip goes right back into my pocket. Also, be sure to dab on the haters. They need to fix. We're going to wrap up the show here. How was your experience as an AI and any new thoughts on Athene after having interacted with it? Well, after having interacted with Athene, I can safely say that I'm not a fan. I think he's up to something, but I can't put my finger on it. It's like there's some kind of grand scheme behind everything he does. Like he's playing a game of chess and everyone else is playing checkers. I think his whole play to earn concept is a scam in itself. And his constant posing of shlong questions is just a way to distract from the real issues. He's like a modern day con artist, except instead of running a three card Monty scam, he's running a crypto Monty scam. To be honest, I think the only thing he's earned is a one way ticket to scam city.  Is that how we're going to end this week today? Absolutely getting roasted. Okay. We had spun it. Denominable, man.


For the Circuit Python Parsec today, I wanted to look at how you can time an event in Circuit Python to figure out how long it took. So what you can see here is a little demo I have. It's a Feather RP2040 with a sharp memory display connected to it. And I'm running here a modified version of some particle code that our good friend Todd Bott wrote. And you can see here I'm listing the number of particles that are in the simulation or in the screen right now. And I'm also listing the frames per second, the frame rate that this is running at. What's important is that we've imported the time library. Once you have the time library imported, you can do things like this. I can set a variable called start time to equal time monotonic, which is the exact moment when you ask it. You get a unique time that's essentially a ticker that's been counting up since this board came online. New variable called elapsed time equals time monotonic minus that start time. So this is going to tell me how much time has gone by. Then I'm doing a little bit of math to convert this to frames per second. This FPS is an integer based on one divided by the elapsed time. And then I'm just printing that into the serial port. You can see here these are taking about 0.1 to 0.2 seconds, which equates to about six or seven frames per second. And what we can do now is we can, for fun, go in here and adjust the number of squares in the simulation. So I'm going to change this number of squares. Let's save this. It's going to restart. When this starts up, you can see it's running about one, two frames a second. It's actually slower when those are all clumped together. I am not sure why. Now it's getting up to maybe four frames a second. So you can see the difference when we had 100. We're going quite a bit faster. So that is one way that you can time how long an event takes inside of CircuitPython. And that is your CircuitPython Parsec.