If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind pump, mind pump, with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. You know, this was done at the Spartan 2017 Tahoe Championship. We had a chance to sit down.  You guys just kicked me out. I don't appreciate it. No, what were you doing?  No, actually, I was out interviewing all these different people. Oh, true. Messing with them. Truth be told, we know how you get when we talk about emotional stuff, so he didn't want to be a part of it because he was shocked. Super uncomfortable. I didn't want anything to do with it. Somebody's not okay with talking about their feelings, but I tell you what, out of all the interviews that we've done, this is real talk right here. So this is a shout-out to our boy Josh Trent. He's one of our favorite podcasters. He's a great interviewer. We have amazing conversation with him. It gets real deep. It's not formulaic. It flowed really well. Me and Adam talked about quite a few things, everything from childhood to connection to food, wellness, motivation. Yeah, no, we did. We went all over the place with leadership and personal development, and we got into business stuff, and like you said, nutrition, exercise. It was a great conversation. It flowed really well. Josh just has an incredible ability to really direct the conversation and ask really good, deep questions. I love an interviewer that has that ability to get into your soul. And I remember right out the gates, we got diving into my dad's death and stuff, and it was emotional right out the gate. So if you're somebody who likes to hear stuff like that, you'll really enjoy this episode. It's a really, really powerful episode. We had a lot of fun. Oh, he talked about his technology when I talked to him. Super lame. So Josh Trent, his podcast is Wellness Force. You've got to go check it out. It's a fantastic podcast. His website is wellnessforce.com. Also, I'd like to say we have, we just completed our train the trainer seminar. We've got some of the trainers in the room right now. Can you guys make some noise? Get some whoop, whoop. Oh snap. We've got a studio audience in here. But anyways, so without any further ado, here we are talking to Josh Trent from Wellness Force. Let's start off by picking your surname. What is your nickname? Yeah, because I just realized I don't have a nickname for it. I thought, isn't there rules to nickname? Don't you, you can't give it to yourself, right? Doesn't someone else have to give it to you? I feel like you are big country. Big country? Yeah, especially because we're here in the Brown House. I don't know. The reason why I can't be big country is because I know we can call him big bougie. We help bougie. What does bougie mean? Like, like, like he likes nice things and things that sparkle.  So two times now, he's been flagged by security at the airport. And he thinks it's because he's got a big beard. I think it's because, you know, he's suspect, whatever, but he's been flagged.  Yeah. And he wears these hilarious socks that just cover his toes and go right under and it's super feminine and hilarious looking. They're on right now. And we make fun of him for it, but Adam is very confident in himself. And can you show everybody your socks? They're just, they're no-show socks. Or lack thereof, right? So if you're going to wear a pair of vans like these with a pair of tapered sweats, that's going to show my ankle. Yeah, you don't want to do what I do, although I got the black socks on today. You're okay today. I'm good today. Thanks Adam. But yeah, no, they're just so... Otherwise... These actually look like dancing socks for a fun ballerina. The first time that Sal had seen these, he thought they were ballet shoes. And so, yeah, no, they made fun of me and gave me a hard time. But you know what? It looks like he put on my kid's sock or something. I didn't even know these existed for a really long time. And you know, he used to frustrate me because I love this style of a shoe. But then it only looks good in my opinion when you wear them like barefoot. And then my feet would stink and that drives me crazy. So I have a lot of shoes that are very low-top that I like to wear. And I don't always want to wear my styler socks. Let's talk about people that wear white socks. What's the deal with that? You know, these quarter socks? Like people that wear... No, he makes fun of me for my socks all the time. And I don't get it. But then again, I don't get a lot of things in relation to fashion. I just don't. Well, where did you grow up, man? Like what was the actual birthplace of Sal DiStefano? San Jose, California. Born and raised. You worked with your dad for a while. I didn't do my usual research. I wanted this to be super organic. Kind of like how you guys flow. Yeah, so... Fun that way. Yeah, no, I didn't work with him. It was just when I was a kid, especially in the summer, when I was out of school. So my dad's a... He works with... He's a stone worker, so he does tile, marble, granite. My dad's extremely talented at what he's done. He's done it since he was a child. And in the summer, when I didn't have school, he would take me to work with him. So I have lots of experience with this kind of labor, this hard work. And I'd mix cement for him and carry the buckets of cement up. And eventually when I got older, I learned how to grow out and do all that stuff. And I really enjoyed the time I spent with my dad. But I also learned a very valuable lesson for me. In fact, this is a lesson that for me is one of the core... Just part of my core. It's a fundamental lesson I learned. It's this right here.  I really don't like working with my hands, so that's why I talked for a living on a podcast. Now, what about you, man? Where were you born? Actually, San Jose, California. Also, only I'm not born and raised there. I was born there. By two years old, my family had moved out of there. And I lived in nine different homes growing up. What? Why? Why nine? We were poor.  Or my dad, or my stepfather at the time, would lose his job or he'd be who's a contractor.  And then if there was no work, sometimes we'd have to move. Sometimes we'd move to a whole other state. Like we lived in Colorado for about a year and a half of my life. So I was on the go a lot. They did keep me. They were, it was nice. I remember when we got to high school, that was like a really important thing for my parents and I'll never forget that for them because they knew, they knew that had to be tough for us kids going from school to school, new friends, you know, having to start over. And those are very formative years. Like that's where you bond and create social relationships. Like that's challenges. Such a great point that you say that. And Adam's really good. That's something I've noticed about him. And I've noticed about people who've done that a lot when they were kids.  And I think in part because he learned how to do that, right? Am I wrong? You were socially forged to be the man you are now. Because that's true. I've seen you operate like you can bust any group up and just be like, hi guys, I'm your friend in 30 seconds. So 100% I agree with that. It took me later in my life to really understand that and put that together. And it makes me, I'm a big Tony Robbins fan and I remember watching one of his, one of his videos and watching him talk and get into somebody. And I remember this, this video of him getting into this lady about what's, what was going on with her life.  And she's complaining, complaining and learning to thank him for all the same things that you are upset or that hurt you. And it made me really dive into my childhood and the things that I went through and 100% as a kid. I never remember it. I remember being new school.  And I had, I always had friends and it was tough to go from one school to another school, leave all my friends that I spent the last year or two making. And now I'm in a new place and I hated that. I hated that as a kid, but it also forced me, like you said, to find a way because I wanted friends and I wanted to be normal. And I wanted to hang out and do those things. And I played sports. So it was around 11. Have you always been athletic? Because I know, Sal, you were pretty small at the beginning of your journey. I was a skinny kid growing up. I got tall really quick. So I wasn't necessarily small.  I was a very hard gainer, but it's hard to say because I was 14. You know what I'm saying? Like I think all four, looking back, hindsight's always 20, 20, it's like all makes sense now. But as a 14 year old, I feel skinny. I'm lifting weights. I'm not building all this muscle, which is expected from a 14 year old. But at the time I'm like, Oh my God, it's not working for me. And so I pushed my body and constantly tried to learn and grow, but it was all fueled by these insecurities, which later on motivated me to become who I am now with fitness, which is, I understand the root, you know, the root, the real root causes of things like obesity and the root causes of the reason why people can't, you know, stay consistent with the exercise or they can't find, they can't figure out how to eat right, even though the information's in front of them. And it was a lot of it's based on some of those insecurities. Mine were just different. So I learned different, you know, What was like the biggest insecurity that you got to push through? What was that threshold for you? Just being skinny. The worst thing you could ever tell me when I was growing up. And me and Adam share this. We're very, very similar in this regard.  And people use that term not in a negative sense. Like if you're getting lean, people, oh my God, hey, look, you look skinny. You look skinny. It's like a compliment. You might as well.   He's too skinny. And they meant it in a loving way, you know, and they didn't mean it in a bad way to hurt my feelings. But it really hurt my feelings a lot. And I really took that to heart. And I didn't really face that head on. I became aware of it as an adult. And I knew about it. I just chose to ignore it in the sense that I lied to myself. You know, I lied to myself all the time. Like that's not really an issue. Even though all my behaviors totally pointed back to the fact that I was still very insecure and I wanted to be the big guy. Like I never went on a diet to get lean. Because why would I try to get lean? I don't want to get smaller. It's always trying to get big. I force fed myself. I'd get my body weight up to 235 pounds. I'm not a big frame guy. So I'd be this huge. And how much do you weigh now? I'm probably 185, 190 maybe. I'd be this huge meatball walking around. But I'd be like, okay, I feel big now. I feel comfortable. And I didn't really, I didn't really face it 100% until relatively recently. I want to say there's two things that made me really face it. One was, I think I was 29 or 30. I went on a camping trip with two of my staff members. One was a physical therapist. One was a massage therapist. But both of them were very holistic with their approach. And both of them really understood this side of fitness. And up until this point, I'd known correctional exercise very well. I knew nutrition very well from a performance fat loss, whatever standpoint. I knew how to support people very well. But I didn't understand some of this other stuff that they would talk about all the time. And we were camping and, you know, I'm doing team building with them. And I always wanted to be a good leader. And so I would, you know, I would engage in what they wanted to engage in. I would entertain their ideas. And we were meditating after we'd gone on a long hike. This is after three days of camping, which is very uncomfortable for me. Right. We talked about this last time. That's one of your edges right now. Yes. Nature. Yes. And I think when you put yourself in uncomfortable situations, you tend to examine things a little differently. So I don't think this would have worked had we not been camping away from things. And I was uncomfortable to begin with. And we're sitting there and we're, we're meditating. And it wasn't like it, nobody prompted me, but I chose to dive into that, that insecurity of mine. And as I'm diving into feeling insecure about this and why do I treat my body this way? And you know, what is it? What's the real root of it? And I pictured my son and my son at the time was very young. He's 12 now. So he's probably seven.  I can't even, there's no words to explain how I feel about my children and parents listening right now can, can relate. There's nothing quite like it. And it, it showed me what real unconditional. To say that to make me feel like I'm less of a man. I'm like, I don't have any kids yet. Well, no, I think you can experience. This is what makes you. Yeah, exactly. I think you can experience it in other ways. But for me personally. You can be a father in many different aspects besides children. For me personally, this is, this is, this did it for me. And I'm thinking of my son and I'm, and I'm picturing him. And he's my spitting image. He's probably going to be, you know, skinny and tall and lanky. It's very similar to me and his attitudes about certain things. And I pictured him and then I pictured myself when I was young.  It's the same thing. Why I can love my son. So I love my son so much and I could care less about that kind of stuff with him. Like it doesn't even register in my mind where I look at my kid and I think, why aren't you building more muscle? I don't even think of that. Right. But why do I, why can't I do that for myself? And there was a shift there. A very, very powerful shift in the way I thought about those things. And I started to, to actually make some changes, but I held on to some of the ones that I was most dogmatic or the ones that I was so connected to that I didn't even realize that those were also issues until my body turned on me and I had some health issues. And then I was forced to really face the monster. And it's, I mean, I had, I've had more growth in the last, I know, eight years and I had the previous 30. Yeah. And this is what you explore. And I talked to you before we recorded like my opinion of when I first met Pomp, like you were really the one talking about wellness. Not that you don't, not that Justin doesn't, but that was really your driver. It's like, Hey, we're looking at the entire system here. This is not just about strength training and fitness. Why do you think that's the case for you specifically? Was it the upbringing? Was it coming from being a heart gainer and like more your auto immune stuff that you dealt with? I think I was faced. Yeah. I think I was faced with some different challenges than Adam and Justin. I think that's part of it. I think we're all a little bit different. Although we all, you know, converge in terms of our integrity and what we want to do with our podcast and with our message. Yeah. And I mean, I learn something from these gentlemen every single day. Everybody brings a different piece. I just am blessed to have that piece that I can offer to be able to work with these guys and it makes me feel blessed because it makes me feel worthy to be working with such incredible people. Man, I feel so blessed too. Like you guys were a huge part of me being here. So I just want to thank you on the podcast. Oh, much appreciated. Such an honor to be up here with these incredible athletes, health and wellness people that I've respected for so long just to be able to hang out and just to be in the ether of creativity. Isn't it great? Just to be in there. So thank you for that. And one of the people who's in this, this beautiful ether was Cal Fussman. And we were sitting at the table and he was like, hey, go right to the heart with your first question.  And I'm curious for you what that is. Oh, wow. You got him. Get ready, bro. Yeah.  Oh my God. You just asked Adam, what do you want? Like his favorite, I'm all time. Well, yeah. Let's do this. Well, you obviously don't know then. So I, my father killed himself when I was seven. So he didn't really teach me much. So I don't have much memories of my dad. But my stepfather, my mom, after, so I had seven years, my real father took his life and nobody knows why or at least I didn't know as a child until I get older and then I look back. So that's how my early years started. Then my mom marries into a abusive relationship. So for 10 years, I watched the two of them throwing frying pans at each other, cops being called, like all that stuff. So I never really had a really good male figure in my entire life. But the most really good male figures in my life came later, like into my teens and probably like 20-something years old when I started meeting other men like in my profession or like-minded people. And my mom really disconnected our family from like my uncles and my aunts and all my cousins. So I didn't even have an uncle or another family member who I really connected to and would give me like this great fatherly advice. So a lot of what, where I am at now in my life, a lot of that self-taught and I've definitely for sure pulled so much from all the other men that I've been around in my like 20s. And for sure, 20 to 30 was the most amount of growth as a man. And then from 30 to 35 right now, I think I feel like was the most growth is learning about myself. Man, I experienced you as a fully present human. Like I never experienced you like disconnected. You're always like whoever you're talking to, you're with them. And that's what I feel from you now. And I just think about what that would be like. I actually did not know that. So like my heart just filled up from you saying that. And you know, when I was a kid, my dad left home when I was like two months old. And so I never really knew what it was like to just have like the standard mom and dad. I think a lot of people deal with this. How do you guys think that that relates to people gaining weight, not having a safe home base to where there's that existential stress all the time? How many people listening can relate to like being from a broken home? Not being the victim, but being the victor. Like what do you guys think that looks like? I mean, that plays a massive role in who we are as adults and the problems that we end up encountering as we, you know, when something is an issue that you grow up with, it becomes a party who you are and you become so unaware of that, that you can't even examine it. You know, you can't even examine this poor relationship you have with food because you don't realize it's a poor relationship. You're literally in the state of unconscious incompetence where you just don't know that you don't know. But you know, the circumstances can forge you or it can crush you. And you look at Adam's situation, he grew up in very, very difficult circumstances. At the same time, he was the oldest of how many kids? Four or five? Yeah, the oldest of five. The oldest of five kids and so knowing Adam and I'm on the outside, so I think I can comment on this and I know him pretty well. He latched onto that and it turned him into a leader and the father figure of his family. So he kind of learned those things because he valued his role in his family. It's funny that you made the comment about people can be a father without actually having children, right? Yeah. And it's the hardest thing for people that don't really know how to connect to me with like my whole personal relationship and not having kids. Like I'm 35 years old.  I've been with her for six years. We're not married yet because we have personal goals that we're trying to get and collective goals together where we want to be financially and stuff, stable before we get married because it's not that important to either one of us.  It's not something that we absolutely have to have. I would love to have a kid, but I'm okay with not because I feel like I have been that role for my family my entire life. You fostered a father-ship relationship in many different areas. Like what else besides being a leader for your family, have you done as a father role to help other people? In a way, trainers were kind of fathers or mothers to clients. Really, like they didn't get that when they were growing up. So they're getting it from you and Adam and everyone else. So how does that work to actually be a father figure in a fitness setting, in a wellness setting? So I'll tell you one of the proudest moments I ever had and it wasn't collecting a trophy or winning some big game or anything like that. I've been a part of all those things. I've been a part of winning teams and comebacks and I broke all kinds of records at 24 Fitness. So I have all kinds of cool trophies at my house and been recognized for things like that. You sold the most body bugs. Yeah, exactly. There's all kinds of cool moments, things like that. But nothing, I tell you what, one of the coolest moments, going pro as a men's physique guy. That was incredible, but nothing felt like the day that I'll never forget this day. We were in a meeting at Mountain View, which was the corporate office for 24 Fitness and our district manager is in there and we're sitting in a meeting and there's 12 of my peers. So they're all managers in a district manager meeting talking to us and of the 12 individuals that are sitting around the table, eight of them are my guys. Eight of them are somebody that I hired, I trained, I developed and then I watched them move into leadership and that was cool. Man, this external framework of accountability, I interviewed Gretchen Rubin. I'm an obligeur personality. I don't know if you guys have explored this tendency type, obligeurs, upholders, questioners and rebels. It's about how we operate towards expectations in our lives.  Absolutely.  But for yourself, do you find that taking care of others motivates you or do you find that inside you're just self-motivated, you tap into that intrinsic force more? My self-motivation is driven by my bouts of creativity. And I call them bouts because they come real strong and then they go and I've learned to just be okay with it. And there could be plants or weed involved. Maybe, maybe. Which can really help. Well, anytime you can alter your state of consciousness, whether it's change your environment, change your nutrition, meditate or use external substances, it can encourage that process for sure. But it can also discourage it. There's a way to use those. But I go through periods of creativity that are just explosions where I can't get enough out of me. Then I go through periods when I don't, I just can't pull anything out and that's okay, I gotta be okay with that. I'm definitely also very motivated though by taking care of other people. This is also something that me and Adam share as a common trait. I'm the oldest of four. I very much was the leader in my family in those regards. I just feel that natural is a natural role for me. I don't necessarily crave that role. It just usually is the role that I'm put in. I enjoy doing it. I've managed teams since I was 19. I was managing big gyms. And then I was an entrepreneur at 21 with staffs. And I do feel good in that role. This current business that we're doing is very interesting though, because you have three hosts who in our own right are leaders. And if you want to label us alpha, we tend to be the guy that tends to lead things. But now you got three of us. And statistics will tell you that that's a bad mix. You got to have your leader and then you got to have the other people that kind of follow and do whatever. Well, we've got three leaders. We've got three kind of alpha leaders, but we're also older. We're all in our 30s. We're also very mature. I think that plays a big part of it here because it's not like you're 21 going fresh out of college. Your hormones and your ego are way more expansive then. Like you guys have been through the ringer. Life has taught you big lessons now. And we all want the same thing. We all want the same thing. We all want to succeed. We all want to change the industry for the better. We want to make a massive influence. And so we've all, and this is amazing to watch, because I'll be honest when we first started, I loved what we were doing, but I remember thinking like, I wonder if we're ever going to butt heads. But it's phenomenal in the sense that there's times when I'll lead, those times when Adam will lead, there's times when Justin leads, and the other two step back and let that person take that role because we know that it's going to be better that way. Depending on the situation, depending on the moods, depending on what's happening in our lives, all of us don't have a problem doing that. And so we've developed this incredible dynamic and I really appreciate it. But yeah, going in at first, I was like, oh fuck, how are we going to get along? I think there's no way that we would have ever made it work at 25 because there was experiences that we had to go through in our late 20s and even early 30s for us all to kind of be in that place to allow that to happen. And for me, I know right away the reason why it wouldn't work for me because early on in my career, a lot of my success was because I made it happen and I did it. Did it come from trust or did it come from aggression and anger? Yeah, there was a chip on my shoulder from being poor, not having things, wanting things, not having a lot of help. I could do this, I'll do it, I'll figure it out. And that was always kind of my mentality. So I definitely think that I was like that in early years. It wasn't until my about 27 or so did I start to really learn and started to look at like my team as, okay, I'm trying to make everybody like me and be like me because I'm successful and I figured this formula out. And so I was trying to make everybody like me to get all of us to be successful. And it worked because I could always get a couple and because I ran so fast, that's all I really needed was one or two people to see my vision and we would crush and we do well. So I had a lot of false success.  So if Sal and I would have met and there's things where we don't, because we definitely don't always agree, we disagree a lot. But disagreement is healthy too because we were talking about Neutropics a little bit before and we're not going to name any names but there are studies out there that really take the time, like real, like 10 years plus studies. Those haven't been done on a lot of products that are being sold right now. You guys bust a lot of myths on Mind Palm. What do you think? This is a huge question. We'll probably have to do like another show on this one question. What are the top one to three myths in the fitness space that people really get to know about? No fluff, like let's cut right to the point here. Like let's go keto first if you guys are open to that because keto is not for everyone. Can you please expound upon keto? Ketogenic diets. Well first, share how this came about the way we delivered this message because... Raw Fitness Truth. Oh yeah, over two years ago or it was about two years ago when did we have Dom the very first time? It was a while ago. Maybe a year and a half years ago. Before anyone even really knew keto. Before he was on the Tim Ferriss show? Right, it was early on. It was right after that I believe. So it was just, people were just starting to find out about it and we had known about it and I remember we talked to Dom and we had a great conversation and at this time I'm eating four to six hundred grams of carbs a day. I'm a competitor. Were you puffy?  Wow. I look badass. Okay. Which is part of the problem. So yeah, that's where I want to go with this. Yeah. I'm eating four hundred to six hundred grams of carbs being able to interchange things that I like to enjoy in my diet every now and then and look inject. I'm competing at the professional level in men's physique and I've got these guys telling me like oh we should do this keto thing.  Why would I want to do that? Doesn't even sound like a good idea. I thought you know what? That's not the right attitude. In fact just a simple fact that I have that attitude tells me I need to challenge that way of thinking. And so I said all right, let's do this. And Sal was already doing it. He'd already committed. He wasn't doing it. He was trying to get me on board and I'm like nah, not for me dude. And it's not my, I've got my stuff dialed in the way I like it. I look great.  You went through your discovery process of seeing what gave you the results you wanted. Right. Right. So why? That was my way of thinking at that time.  That's just, and I'm a very self-aware person or I try to be. And I'd noticed that about myself and so I dug into it deeper and said okay, why do I think that way? Why not try this? Maybe I'll see better results or maybe I'll learn something new about my body. And so I did. And I tell you what, my body responded unbelievably to ketogenic. I noticed huge difference in inflammation. I noticed satiety. I didn't get these cravings that I was having before. I was getting lean, easy. I was eating fats and enjoying these great foods. What were your macros? Do you remember? Okay. So when I first did it, I wasn't getting enough fat and I actually, my body was like, this doesn't feel right. I was getting headaches. I felt really tired. It didn't feel right at all. And I remember telling Sal right after I was like, I don't know about this bro. It doesn't feel right for my body. He's like, well where are your fats at? So you know what? Maybe you need to try pushing them up. He's like, that's about where my fats and you were eating so many carbs. You probably just need more fuel and you're not giving your body enough. And I said, okay. So I did, I did adjust. I was up to, I was eating 400 grams of fat. So between 354. Remember, I'm a 235 pound men's physique. My metabolism is roaring right now.  I have to, yes.  Because I know people right away are like, oh, that's insane. But I needed to because 200 was not enough. Right, right. And that low of carb, eating under 50 grams of carbohydrates and under that one for my body and what I was doing to it at the time as far as training, no way. So I pushed it up to about 400 grams of fats. My proteins were about 120 to 150 on the high end of protein, grams of protein. And then a carbohydrates. I was trying to stay under 50. And all, I saw all these amazing results from the ketogenic diet. Now I didn't stay ketogenic forever. In fact, I now probably eat a diet that's kind of paleo-esque, I would say. Yes. Even though we don't try and label any way of eating it.  Right. Right. Exactly. And, you know, and I'm not really counting or paying attention. I allow myself definitely to have carbohydrates. I probably eat about 150 to 200 grams of carbs now. But that's a huge difference from a guy that was eating 600. So it completely altered the way I looked at food. What I took from that, instead of saying, oh, ketogenic did all these things for me. It was like, why? What did I do different? Well, I noticed that all the lower carbohydrates definitely brought down the inflammation in me. The higher fats. Oh, I noticed things, skin, hair. My psoriasis was doing that. Did you notice cognition at all? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Focus on that. We do podcasting every day. So I have great ways to measure this stuff. And, you know, I'll lose train of thought sometimes. And man, I was way sharper than I'd ever been. And I felt that. And so, but what, what I know what was so great and what we ended up talking about on the show, because as soon as we shared this, all of a sudden everybody started going ketogenic. And I remember telling the boys off air. I said, listen, we need to make sure that this just doesn't turn into the diet of mind pump. Yes. We're not okay with that. Dietary dog mind. Right. So we have some great episodes back around the time around when we're talking about ketogenic a lot, because Sal and I would kind of go at it back and forth. And I was kind of coming from the carbohydrate side. And we, and we had good discussion. People can hear both sides. And we both agreed on that. Yeah. This is not for everybody. And the takeaways from this is to learn about the macro nutrients and what it did for my body. And so now I'm just more aware. Now, you know, my, my beginning of my day is basically coffee and lots of fats. I never used, I was an oatmeal and protein guy. Like that was how I started every meal in egg whites. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. That was a staple meal for me. And it worked well. It worked well. It was a great workout because I'd have energy from my carbohydrates. After that, I'd be hungry again in two hours. So I'd feel up again. And then by new time, I'm having an awesome workout.  And I think to myself, wow, how many people feel like that? And because of that, never really get the chance to understand what a different macro profile may look for them and will help beneficially. Or the other spectrum I saw, because I saw such great results from the ketogenic diet. So how many people now marry themselves to this, again, dogma of, oh, it's the ketogenic wave.  It's not that. It's because you probably started eating more real foods. Yes. Got rid of all this process. Carbohydrates.  It's expensive. It's very myopic. Like there's a certain way of eating when you're doing that. Now let's talk about the keto flu. I'm curious about this because I tried it, you guys. It didn't work for me. I'm APOE 3-4. So for the people listening, there's different ways that your body processes fat, specifically saturated fats. So I'm a 3-4. I don't process saturated fat efficiently like an APOE 1 or APOE 2. Yeah. So keto is truly... Did you take a test to find that out? I took a test. I did my 23andMea had sequenced by Prometheus and they give you really actionable stuff. It's awesome. We'll link that in the show. And here's the thing you want to consider. There definitely are some general rules with nutrition like don't overeat, don't eat too many processed foods, you know, that kind of stuff. But when you get down to the specifics, the individual variants can be quite different from person to person. So I'm going to ask you a question. Before you took that test, how did you feel going keto? I didn't feel good. Exactly. And this is the problem. The data backed out my feelings. Sometimes people want that data, but why don't you, you know, people just listen to your body because I got messages from people. 100%. I would get... We would talk about keto and I'd get messages from people like, oh my God, I feel so great. But then we get messages from people who are like, Sal, I've been trying keto for a month. I can't...  I have low energy. I feel terrible. How long until I start feeling good? And I'm like, stop going keto. It's not working for you. Yeah. Listen to your body and switch. Yeah. The other thing you want to consider is the human... The humans evolved during periods of famine, during periods of feeding, during the seasons when... Here's the thing. When fruit grew. When fruit grew. When fruit grew. We have seasons for reasons. When fruits grow. If we're hunter-gatherers and there's all these plants that we can eat, guess what we're going to eat? We're going to eat plants that are defensive and dangerous. Takes a lot of energy and we may die. If there's no plants, guess what we're going to do to survive?  And so humans had this variety and did all these different things. You know, I'll tell you what, one of the shocking things that I say, and I say shocking because people like when I... The first time I said it, remember I get messages from people like, I can't believe you're saying that, is I would tell the muscle building world to have a vegan day, go low protein once a week and they're like, the science actually supports that.  But if you go low protein every once in a while, you'll find when you go back to your higher protein diet, boom, you get those results back and it's good for you. It's good for you to do that. It's the similar benefits that you get from fasting. It's the reason why we talk about that all the time. That's right. So keto, polymorphisms, that if you eat a diet that's high in saturated fat, I don't care, it could be as healthy as you want it to be. You're going to have blood lipid numbers that are not going to look good. The polymorphism that you have is one of those.   Well, let's explore this because there's exogenous ketones like companies out there and my opinion of exogenous ketones, it's almost like if you have a bad ankle you consistently wear a brace, you eventually have to get the ankle strong. Do we really need to always have these exogenous ketones coming in? But that's how it's sold in the space. Of course. You need ketones every day, you guys. Let's go back here for a moment. Think about it this way. If you're the fitness industry, we actually said this will happen. Before a single supplement came out. This is first for wellness for, so let's really unpack this. You can go way back in our library and find this. When we first heard about ketogenic and we experienced it, we did it. The very first thing and we do this on the show as much as we can for our audience. We like to predict things. We look like we're profits. We told them all about the good, right? This is the benefits. This is why you feel benefits. This is the drawbacks. This is why it's not myself. If I really would look back and look at my choices of foods, when you get into every single day, I start looking and going, man, I'm eating a lot of the same foods. Yeah, bacon, avocado, macadamia. Because, yeah, they're good foods. I like them and there's benefits to them, but it's the same foods and I know I'm missing out on a lot of micronutrients that I was naturally getting when I was rotating through other foods. We called this out as soon as we were coming next, right? We're going to see someone attach some sort of supplements that they'll attach to getting you into ketosis because they're going to sell the ketosis part of this because there's where the benefits are, right? Just like in fasting, when we're fasted, there's a lot of stuff going on, very similar to what goes on when you actually take out all these carbohydrates in your diet. So we're going to take that. We're going to attach ourselves to the science.  Here we are today with that and the thing is we're really getting ridiculous and splitting hairs over something. Yes, ketogenic diet is good. Yes, it's good to be in ketosis. Do you need to take a powder to get there, to get there sooner or faster or more efficiently than you were before? What are we talking about in the grand scheme of things, of your overall health or whatever your fitness is? Splitting hairs. Again, when it comes to supplementing with ketones, there's definitely some performance around it. What are you doing as trying to be an athlete, right? Trying to be an athlete messing around with being ketogenic all the time. Most people that are on the ketogenic plan, I would say 90% are people that want to let go of old weights. The athletes are dialed in. They're using the ketones and everything, but most people just want to lose the body fat. Exogenous ketones and they get sold into that program and it's like take these ketones and you lose weight and that could not be further than that. So I will just go back to the stories. Will they suppress your appetite? Maybe. They might help suppress your appetite a little bit. But then again, you're looking for an external source of an appetite suppressant. We need to talk about appetite. I'd love to get into that for a second. None of us, most people don't know what it really feels like to be hungry. Let's just be honest. The average person has never gone without food emotional, it's probably, it's all anxiety or boredom. So, you know, taking something to suppress your appetite, not really a good idea anyway. And I mean, performance benefits, I can see that. I only see it as if you are a dialed in athlete and you love like, let's say Spartan where we're at, you love this and you, and you've got everything else, right? You're ketogenic and you just happen to be an endurance athlete because that's not ideal, right? If you're in it, we all know that if you're an endurance athlete, it's not necessarily ideal. Super endurance, maybe. It's challenging to shift the energy source. Right, right. So, and it still would be more beneficial for that athlete to do cyclical to where, and actually still, you know, because even when we talk to what's his face, he was a ketogenic athlete, he still uses carbohydrates when he's training. Oh yeah, the Zach, Zach Bitter, who's the ultra marathon record holder. Is it a 100 mile record holder? He cycles because everyone gets to cycle. You can't eat the same weight forever. It doesn't exist. In fact, it's a good idea. It's a great idea, because this again, this is how we evolved, to train your body or at least let it go through the process of switching energy sources, going without food. But this you can apply on the grand scheme of things. You can apply to allowing your body to adjust to temperature contrasts, you know? Allowing your body to adjust to different forms of activity. This is just how the body thrives. It thrives on this kind of variety. And you can get very specific and very focused, but you're gonna definitely give up some other things by doing that. Well, let's talk about adaptation because you had an incredible transformation. In your Instagram, I was like, this can't be the same person.  Like how the hell did you do that? Thanks for all that love right there. It did take me a little bit long. Did you manage a Taco Bell? No, I did not. I did not manage a Taco Bell. If you actually managed. The cool part, so the whole thing and we, you know, Sal shared his like self-awareness journey of like where he said we were very similar is we had this insecurity of being the skinny guy forever. And I actually never in my life trained to lose body fat until I was 30 years old. Wow. My whole life was dedicated to getting bigger. How much hope and inspiration does it give to somebody listening right now? Oh, let me. You change it at any age. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. My whole life I was focused on getting bigger. I was never big enough and I was always carrying that insecurity of being skinny or too small. And the only reason why I did was I took a two year hiatus from fitness and I didn't fully because I was still managing a bootcamp business that I had running, but I put a lot of my energy and focus into an opportunity that I had in the cannabis industry. And I was offered a position to oversee multiple locations and be the first of this way. So I was a part of the first two cannabis clubs in the Bay Area. And so I took a hiatus for financial reasons. It was a great opportunity for me to make some money. And it was so much that as much as I was passionate about fitness, I was like, I would be a fool to not do this. It's satisfying Mozilla's triangle for sure. Yes. I mean, you're there. We understand. So that's what happened. And during that time, I was 100% focused on money.  I was eating because I was working 16 hour long days. And I mean, I was eating garbage, fast food, everything. And I just didn't really care because I wasn't, well, I didn't think I was really getting fat because I had never been big enough. And actually I was holding some decent weight. I was like, I was holding around 200. It's always been hard for me to be over 200. So okay, I'm okay with this. So it didn't even phase me, didn't even think about it. But meanwhile, and Katrina will share stories of she remembers watching just the way, my confidence, the way I carry myself, the way I talk, being naked in our bedroom together versus turning the lights off and getting naked, doing things like that, which is not like me.  It's true. I've shared a hotel room with her, horrible. So this is going on, right? And I'll never forget laying in bed next to her. And I reach over my side to scratch my side and I actually feel my belly. And I never had felt it laying on my side where I had enough body fat to actually hang like that. I'd never felt that ever in my life. And I remember feeling it and going like, whoa. Wow, I'm actually kind of fat. Like that was weird. I've always been skinny, always trying to be bigger. Never once ever thought about fat.   And I was like, hey, I might be kind of fat. And then I remember looking at myself in the mirror going like, shit, I don't look. And then I took a picture and I hadn't taken a picture of myself in a really, really long time. Without the Instagram picture? Yes. No. Yes. So it inspired, and at this time too. So there's a lot going on. So kind of give the backstory a little bit so everyone understands. I'd been in marijuana for a while now, started up these clubs, made good money, did really well and stuff like that, but really was not fulfilled. And I thought that if I was there financially that I would have been. And that was also a great moment for me of learning about myself and money and all that shit because I was now in a position where I thought if I was there, I would be complete. And I wasn't, it was very incomplete, probably some of the most incomplete times of my life. And I remember realizing like, whoa, like I miss health and fitness a lot. And I was like, you know what? I'm coming back. I'm coming back and I'm gonna do it right. Because now I'm in a position where I have enough money that I can just focus on what I wanna do and not what I need to do to get by and pay the bills. So I was in a fortunate position now that I created for myself to pursue fitness again. And I happened to be fat or felt fat. And I went and got my body fat tested. I was 19.9% body fat. And I'd never seen anything near even close to that. I was 213 pounds, I believe. And I was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. I am going to, and what motivated me was when I was a trainer in my early 20s, I was always the skinny or the buff, ripped lean guy.  And, you know, it's totally different for us. I used to hate that. I'm like trying to give them knowledge and we're arguing, but they're kind of right. Like I've never experienced that. So I can't completely relate to them, although I thought I was smart enough to express it. And so I've got people telling me that.  So I was gonna be able to connect to those people. I'm now in my 30s. Clients used to always say to me, oh, well, you're so young. Like, wait. You'll see what happens in your 30s, my friend. You'll see what happens in your 30s. So I'm like, perfect timing for me to show these people what's up. Like show, and again, this is me, the chip on my shoulder, of always trying to prove myself.  And I'm gonna take you, I'm gonna take myself, and that was what I said. So I'm gonna take myself, I documented it, did a video.  And let me tell you, I've been a trainer, so I've been in good shape. I'm gonna go to a level I've never been before. And so for me, that was anything sub 8% body fat. So the goal was anything below that. And I began documenting it on YouTube and sharing my journey and kind of walking people through the right way to do this process. And the goal was to show everybody, I'm not gonna move the scale very much. I'm gonna hover around this 213 pounds and I'm gonna show you a totally different physique with right around that way. And I ended up, I think two pounds different.  But I gotta ask you, man, motivation, inspiration, what you did, motivation wouldn't have been enough. You had to have had a deeper fire of inspiration. So what was that? Now you're dipping into the business side of me, the vision piece of what I was trying to do. I was trying to accomplish something by showing all this too. So around this time, Taylor's no longer in the room here now, but our video guy, we have a connection that goes all the way back to him being in his early 20s and me being around 27 or eight. And he was on my intramural basketball team. And I never met him before. We already have mutual friends.  And I at that time was making really good money in the marijuana business. So I had all kinds of flexibility. And he was always in the gym when I was in the middle of the week and had always a new pair. I'm a sneaker guy. He had always new sneakers on, drive a nice car. I knew he was a really good kid too. So I knew he wasn't doing drugs, selling drugs or something crazy. He was like, what does this kid do? And I remember asking him one day and he goes, I sell clothes and things to my Facebook following you, huh? He goes, yeah, I have a business I built off of Facebook. We can eat commerce, right? And I'm like, I have heard of people doing this at this time, but I had never met somebody actually that it was successful, like making, and he was making a good living, like making good money. And I was like, man, can we get lunch? And he's like, yeah, absolutely. So we set up a date, we go have lunch, and we sit down and he shared his whole thing and his process. And to give the audience what he did that I thought was so brilliant was if you're a sneakerhead, you will totally understand this. I'll try and make it easy for those that are not. When you got rare shoes, like a pair of Jordan 7s, people like me love those shoes are willing to pay more than the retail price to find them because they're so rare. And there's somebody out there that has them in a nice box and has never worn them because they know that. And so Taylor was a guy that had lots of connections in that industry and he put people together like me, where he'd say, hey, you know, Josh over here has a pair of Jordan 7s. He hasn't run sale or he'll sell them for $300. You know, and he would connect us. So he's a broker, right? A shoe broker. A shoe brokerage. A shoe brokerage for rare type of sneakers. And I had already known this business existed. And I knew that it was a lucrative business for some people that were good at it. But what he did that I thought was brilliant and ahead of his time and a visionary was he instead of just doing that and making a 50 bucks or a hundred bucks on every shoe transaction, he actually didn't make any money. He just was the guy who connected everybody. And so everybody wanted to use them. He wasn't making any money and he didn't make any money at first.  And then he pivoted over and created a line of clothes and air fresheners and key chains and sweaters and hoodies. I mean, a whole thing, e-commerce business off of this 10,000 people following him on Facebook. And I was so impressed and so fascinated by that that I was, because I finally met somebody who did it. And I got why it worked so well and why so many people nowadays fail at building these businesses. Because they thought the same way I used to think which is you turn on your Facebook, your Instagram and you have a business. So you promote your business. You have another area or way to do that and that couldn't be further from the truth.  And from there you can offer a place where someone can go and make money and the smart way to do that would be using funnels. The podcast represents a funnel. If I have your attention for an hour to two hours that is our ability to communicate our message. And from there, if you like what we have to say and you believe in what we have to say there's a good chance you might wanna purchase something that we offer. And so I saw that in Taylor was blown away by that model and I was on a mission too. So when I switched on Facebook, Instagram, all that I turned it on with the intention to build a big business off. That was the deeper fire. Like you were going to transform and show people it was possible and you knew that that external framework would drive you.  You wanted to serve other people by your transformation. Like that was the real current underneath this. Was that the biggest transformation you've ever experienced in your life? Oh yeah, that was for sure physically, for sure. I've definitely had bigger mental ones, absolutely. But that was, and it did a lot. It did a lot of things. It made me a way better coach. It taught me a lot. I mean- Cause you actually could be in those shoes. Yeah, man. I mean, I always, and I'm the guy out of all of us for sure. I talk about the tracking all the time, right? I'm the big fan of the Fitbit. I'm the guy who loves Fat Secret app. And I'm always telling people, you gotta track. You just gotta do it.  You gotta get it out of the way after that, whatever. But I think at one, just to make connect to it. Cause I know all the schooling and books and time I've spent in this field and how much it still broke through to me. And I'm like, I got 10 years in this industry, all kinds of certifications and experience and brilliant minds I've been around. And it still broke through to me because I finally disciplined myself to really track and then evaluate how I was feeling, how my body was changing. And once I did that, it gave me a power that I have now that makes staying in shape almost mindless and easy. And it's almost unfair. I knew a little bit about your story, but like thanks for sharing all those deeper nuances. Like I did not know that really it was the business that you wanted to show people that transformation was possible. Like that was the whole ethos behind really, do you feel all three of you, do you feel like that might have been the current below all three of you's mission was your transformation? Like you started it and then you guys caught the fire as well. Well, when we first started Mind Pump, we had really no social media presence except for Adam's social media presence on Instagram, which at the time was about 20,000 followers, not a huge amount, but was enough to give us a little bit of a boost. But I remember, I mean, I get on the phone cause I didn't really know, I had never really met Adam and Justin before Mind Pump. I'd known of them because we were all top performers at 24 Fitness. So I'd heard their names and we all had mutual friends, but I remember I would talk to Adam through social media and he would tell me like, dude, you got to get on Instagram. This is what you got to do. This is how you build a following. And I just, I didn't listen, I didn't listen like, I don't care, I don't care. And, you know, fast forward, we start Mind Pump and it's like, thank God you had that little bit of a following. Yes. Cause it gave us a little bit of, you know, a little momentum when we first got started. But even with, even with the show Mind Pump, you know, when we first started the show, we didn't monetize for an entire year. Our goal was really to provide, and it still is, our goal is the same, to provide as much free quality content as possible to the point where the audience, they value it so much that either, A, they want to buy your product just to support you. When we first turned it on, I'll never forget that. And that, it felt good. And that, I remember was like, we were doing this right. Was when we did finally say, okay, here's the program that we have to sell and offer. The people that were all buying it was like, it was crazy, we were getting all this feedback. I don't even care what's in it. You guys have changed my life so much. I'll just buy whatever you guys are selling. I'll buy whatever you sell because I feel like I owe you so much.  This is so powerful for all the coaches and trainers listening. I can't tell you, like probably not a day goes by where somebody doesn't message me and they say, how did you get to where you are? How did you, how do you get into podcasting? How do you create what I, you have to give. You have to give and give and give and give. And really my question to both you guys is, in the beginning, were you giving without wanting anything back? Absolutely, absolutely. Now we knew that this could eventually turn into a business somehow. But if you start out with that, it's disingenuous. It is, and really we, and that's the thing, like when we first sat down, when all of us sat down for the first time, when we really first met for the first time, we must have talked with each other for four hours nonstop. We all had that much passion with what we were doing, with what we wanted to change. And the underlying theme was integrity. I remember we sat there and we said to it, we all talked amongst each other. And we're like, okay, well, if this turns into a business, how are we gonna monetize? What's this gonna turn into? And I remember all of us thinking like, well, we're gonna have to figure out a way because we don't wanna sell any supplements. We don't like most supplement companies. We don't like what, how the fitness industry makes money. We're not gonna do any of that. We're not gonna do the get fit quick, you know, type programs or show the before and afters. And this is what you can do in three weeks or we don't wanna do any of that because we knew it was bullshit. And so we knew it would be kind of a hard struggle if we were gonna turn this into a business. So really initially it was just making an impact and growing our audience. And really, there's a huge misconception with people who get into business in the social media world. And they think that they need to have millions and millions of followers to create a living for themselves. Now, of course, if you have millions of followers, that's easy, you've got tons and tons of volume, but that's extremely rare and it's probably not gonna happen. But if you can impact a few thousand people in a real genuine way, you've created yourself a nice living. But in order to do that, you have to impact them in a very genuine way. There was some brilliance behind what we did too with the programming, right? Because we also knew. So we knew that we couldn't attach ourselves to all these people. And we knew that it would take, if we once we got companies like for example, I love that we're talking to you right now or we're dealing with this Thrive Market. And I absolutely love that company, but that company would never touch us when we were tiny and small. They're way bigger than that, right? So we knew that we can't think like that. Like it was not like, okay, that's the mission, like grow this podcast and then get companies like that. That may never happen. So we had to be realistic with that. What can we do to make money I think that we can actually sustain this business until that time happens. And we looked at programming because we were like, man, you know what? There's so many programs that are all over the place. There was no good like legit exercise programming probably because the guys that are selling the most of it, they're looking to, they're looking at the selling points which are intensity, excitement, and you know, like lots of marketing. And novelty, novelty, novelty, novelty, novelty. Novelty exact. And let me tell you. Novelty is kind of like the disease of the fitness space. It really is. It's so true. And I tell you what, and I'm not gonna put the guy, Buddy of ours on blast, but we have a good friend of ours who is a cover of a magazine model and very, very successful guy. And he did it in the fitness industry and he did it through making a name for himself and then selling pro programs online. And I remember when we first got together and we're doing business together and him talk and this is why things we didn't go for was cause we just didn't see eye to eye. He looked at programming in the fitness industry like ice cream and everybody had their own flavor. And we looked at programming very scientifically and thought we're really giving the wrong message to most people and we're trying to bedazzle everybody so much and wow them that we're not teaching them the fundamentals on the things that really are gonna change their life because the clients that I actually changed, which by the way, 80% of our clients don't, if we're being honest, most people don't reach their goals and they fail. So the 20%, what was common in those? I got them to do the basics really well. Let that land for everyone listening like what Adam just said, like that is the ultimate truth. Right.  Those guys are making millions right now. So we saw that as a huge opportunity. They're making millions of dollars but are they helping people lose millions of pounds? No, no, no, no. Maybe temporarily but definitely not long term and it's terrible exercise programming. Look, I'll tell you what, our most popular program is a one year bundle of exercise programming. We literally tell people, we're not gonna sell you a get fit in 30 day program. We refuse to do it. Our programs are, each of them are, if you do an individual between three to four months long and the most popular one we have is a year's long worth of exercise programming where you phase your body through different workouts and progress your body. And imagine trying to sell that in the fitness industry. Hey man, you wanna get in shape? It's gonna take you a year. No marketing agency. I got a wedding coming up in three months, Sal. Exactly. But we weren't, and that's the thing. That was the big common thing. When the three of us sat down, we were like, we are not gonna compromise our integrity.  And we bet that the market would respond well because the consumers more informed today and they've heard a lot of the bullshit long enough to where maybe our message can come through. And it seems like it is. And the proof is in the pudding because there's not one person that we have met yet that has truly followed it to a T and not been blown away. And what they're blown away is by the simplicity of what you mean, you want me to work out less than I've ever worked out before? What you mean, I only do that many exercises? What? And you want me to stop two reps of failure? Like that doesn't make sense to me.  And I need to, you know. Just follow it. Just follow it and be true to it and just watch what happens. Well, we'll link your program and the show notes because I actually haven't a chance to check it out yet. I would love to check it out. Okay, no problem. We'll give you a discount. And on top of that, thanks man. Just show me how to do bicep curls, isn't it? So one thing I want to talk about those we wind down, man, is the emotional part of this because, yes, people need to know the core pillars of movement and recovery and breath work and things like that. But what about the emotional intelligence piece? This is big, not only for wellness force, but for mind pump because look, if we're going to give people information that works, they can't just know they have to do. There's a gap. How do you guys fill the gap between knowing and doing? So we just finished a nutrition guide that talks about this because when you can get to the root of these issues that people have with nutrition, you can solve the problem. If you don't get to the root, you'll never have a solution. You'll have temporary fixes that result and you're getting on and off the wagon. We know this, I'm getting leaner and I'm gaining weight and this problem that people tend to have. When it comes to nutrition, it's important to look at the different stages of learning that you move through with nutrition. Now, before I get into those- To level awareness like anything else. It is and I wanna, and before we get into this, it's important to understand this fact right here.   There is no coach on earth that comes with the signaling system that your body naturally evolved with. Now, I know a lot of people listening right now are thinking themselves, well, if that's the case, then why is everybody so messed up? Why does everybody have so many problems? And I'll tell you why. You've been trained to not hear those signals. We have been trained to ignore these signals. We have been taught to ignore them to such a point that we don't even know how to listen to the signals, let alone listen to the signals when they pop up. We're taught, well, first of all, we're taught when we're children, clean your plate. Ignore that, that you don't like this. Especially in the Italian family. Especially in the 100% Oh, I experienced that. That's, you were disrespectful if you didn't clean up your plate. Yes, we are taught that foods are good or bad. We're taught to eat foods based on emotion. We're marketed to this way heavily. I love to use the example of the movie theaters. We all crave popcorn, we're at the movies. Otherwise nobody eats popcorn. Why? We've been conditioned to associate to- Same thing with the diamond ring in marriage. Absolutely. That was De Beers. That's a whole nother podcast. Absolutely, absolutely. Do you know that that you're, you said that a couple of times on podcast, I've been meaning to tell you this stat. Did you know that I believe in the 70s that, and they actually pushed the boundaries so far on that that they actually made laws and they can't do this anymore, but they're used to in the films, they do quick flashes of the popcorn. I've heard of this. Yes, yes. That used to be- Subconscious product placement flash.  So we're all super, we're all super conditioned. And on top of it, consider this. If you look at all of the money that's put into food, in the market of food, most of it goes to two places. Very, very little goes to nutrition and how good it is for you, very little. Most of it goes to palatability and marketing. That's it. Palatability and marketing. So let's talk about palatability for a second. What makes a food extremely palatable? Well, we have access to flavors, textures, smells, colors, in combination to the point where so much money in engineering has gone into foods that they've literally learned how to hijack your body's natural systems of satiety. And we've all experienced them. We've all eaten that big, savory meal of steak and potatoes. Imagine if we actually looked at something before we opened it, like especially if it's in a box or a package that, and before you ate it, you thought to yourself like, this was engineered to hack my system. This is engineered- Someone made this to- To get me to eat more of it. So think of it this way. To manipulate me. Blaze, potato chips that you can't eat just one. Absolutely. So that's there for a reason. They're just calling it out. That was great. Yeah, they're like, hey, we're gonna be honest. That's how gangster they are. We're hijacking you.  Lays is so gangster that they made their slogan, guess what? We're gonna take advantage of you and there's nothing you can do about it. I got a lot of respect for a company like that. Like if you're gonna do- Hey, at least they're being honest. I told you that. At least they're being honest about it. And it's not a conspiracy. It's not nefarious. They're just trying to get more market share. But we've all experienced this. We've eaten the big savory meal. We're super stuffed. I can't eat anymore. But then dessert comes out. It's something sweet that hijacks your body's natural systems of satiety. And now you can eat more. Food competitors know this. So food is engineered to do this. So that completely fucks with our systems. We've never known, we don't know what hunger really feels like because nobody ever goes without food for longer than breakfast to lunch or whatever. In fact, people will skip a meal and you hear people saying things, I get so irritable. I get so hungry. That's not true. It's because you're conditioned to eat at lunchtime. So we don't know what hunger feels like. And there's a lot more that goes to this. In fact, the guide talks a lot about this. So if you can learn to start to read the signals, which by the way is a long process of awareness. But if you can learn to read these signals and then learn to connect with them, you will enter into a state where you will eat just the way you eat. Which I love to interrupt him always right here and tell people that hear that because a lot of people get so excited. You go like, that's for me. It's a long process. Where do I buy this? And that is not what the message that we're delivering is because it is a process. It's a practice. And I tell him all the time because sometimes he says things so casually and I go, bro, you are so far ahead of so many people that things that you think is so easy and basic. You got to make sure you preface that with listen. There's levels of awareness and it's steps to get there. But ultimately that's what you want to be. If you don't mind, I'll give you a basic step by step. So here's basic step by step way to get you to this place.  But this is a very, very easy way or a very basic way to kind of move yourself through the process. So first thing is become more mindful around the times that you eat. So no distractions, sit down, don't drink fluids with your food. So you have to chew it. Think about how you feel before. In fact, you need to write down how you feel before during and after.  You need to know what you don't know. So take those notes, write them down, make eating a very mindful practice. And this is the tracking piece and why I say it's important. And then start to track. So like Adam's saying, then track your proteins, your fats, your carbohydrates. Start taking notes of how you feel, your body weight, hunger, irritability, your skin, your stool, all these different things.  And here's what happens from that. If I really like, let's say I like, every morning I have to have my bagel.  And we all know this is trainers. We'll tell our client, take this food out.  I have to have my bagel. Well, if I, but I'm unaware of how the bagel is making me feel. Most people are like this.  What ends up happening is you start to make an association with that bagel and you stop liking it as much. It stops becoming a food that you crave. Now, the reverse can be said for foods that are healthy for you that you may not think you like. Like broccoli, like, oh, I don't really like broccoli. But let's say you start eating it, you become more mindful around it and you notice I feel really good. My digestion is really good. My energy is really good when I eat broccoli. You start making those associations and the food industry's already done this but they do this with their marketing. So it's a proven fact that this works. Next thing you know, I'm craving broccoli. I really enjoy it. So this is how you get to the process of eating in a way that truly nourishes your body and then what you do is you take that tracking and you start to give yourself parameters. I'm gonna eat this many grams of protein, this many grams of fat, this many grams of carbs. These are my calories and you work through this process. This is a long process.  Once you get comfortable with that and you really know what's in food and you really understand grams of proteins, fats, carbohydrates, how I feel, what's going on, now it's time to transition out of that tracking phase into what I call the intuitive phase. And the way you do that is you take away days of tracking.   And at this point, what you're probably gonna experience is a period of binging.  I don't have to track anymore.  And that's okay. Which flies in the face of tracking in the first place. Because I do wanna point out to people like you're talking about sharpening an intuitive sword here, my friend. Absolutely. And sharpening that sword takes time. So let's breathe into the fact that this is going to activate the parts of our brain that deal with not instant gratification, but long-term delayed gratification. That is a big piece we get to swallow here. And so you're gonna feel like you're going off and on the wagon. That's fine. Pay attention, be mindful. But little by little, you'll be able to add intuitive days. And sometimes you'll have to take them away and go back to tracking. But over of a period, and I've experienced this with clients, it's anywhere between, depending on the individual, six months to a couple years, if they're consistent with this practice, well, they get to a point where eating is much more intuitive.  And I'm gonna give one more example.  Not true. That means when I'm at a function with my friends, and we're all connecting. We're connecting with each other and right now I'm feeding my emotional self. I'm feeding the connections. I'm feeding this part of me inside of me that has nothing to do with nutrition and nutrients and protein fats and carbohydrates. But it needs its fuel. I might drink a little alcohol. I might enjoy the pizza. And I'm not gonna feel guilty or bad about it because I know I'm nourishing my body. And you have this very balanced way of living that is without stress and without anxiety. And that's the ultimate goal.  Man, I have to reflect on this.  Because it's the long-term approach that really wins. When I was 280, I tried probably four times, you guys, to lose weight as fast as possible. And you know what happened? It came back with interest every single time. And the only way I finally just like let it go was by just saying to myself, I don't care how long this takes, I'm just committed to figuring out how I actually can do it. And I think that's the mindset that people get to have. The tools are important. But like let's pre-frame getting the tools with just like surrendering to the process here. Now I wanna wrap up cause we could probably record the entire day. Cause I love you guys. I love doing this with you guys. Love you too, man. The one question that I always ask guests and this is cool because you're at this stage in your life where technically people in their mid 30s, late 30s, early 40s, the hormones are not really on their side. And society says, well, this is the time when you start looking at medications and worrying about everything. How would you define real wellness in your life? Like what does real wellness mean to you? You know, real wellness may mean something from different from person to person or at least that may look different from person to person. But what it means to me is peace. When you have true wellness, you feel at peace. You don't feel a super hyper excited manic. You don't feel depressed and shitty. You just feel good. You feel good in your skin.  The way you look is kind of an afterthought. You've got good relationships with your friends and family.  It's just a state of being that feels very peaceful. And I've only met one person in my life that I think exemplifies that on all aspects. And he's a 55 year old. He's the Godfather of wellness, Paul Check. And meeting him, meeting him really solidified that for me. When I met him and I saw him and I saw how he was and he just is who he is. And he's very, and he's no deadlifts, 400 pounds.  And then he reads biology books and writes patents for. We've talked about check many times. And he just exemplifies it. And the thing that I got from him wasn't necessarily what he did. Like I don't think that's what wellness is going to look like for me. Right. But I could see how it felt. And he was very calm with himself and very peaceful and very comfortable in his own skin. And that's what I think wellness is. Man, that was so powerful. It's the resilience really. Like Paul has gone through a lot of changes. He's an old dog in a new kind of digital fitness world. So he's adapting, but yet whenever I see him online he just did a two-part series on what the, what the hell is the movie. He's so calm. Even when he articulates. It's peace, man. It's always from a place of peace. What does wellness mean to you, Adam? So it's very similar to Sal as far. I 100% would say peace. And I just think our peace is different, right? So I think I have different things that matter to me. And I think I'm really close. I think I'm really close to my true wellness. I don't think we ever really get there. I think we're always kind of- In the finish line. Right. And I don't think I want a finish line. I don't think, I think I would get bored if I, oh, I figured this all out. So I think part of that right is embracing that maybe I'll never fully have true wellness, but I feel like I'm honed in better than I've ever been in my entire life. And for me, it's like actually kind of learning to pull away from the stuff that we talk so heavily about on the show of macros and nutrients and bodybuilding and the weights and pulling myself in that and actually evaluating the rest of my life. Because we definitely believe that that is absolutely a part of that, my relationships. I know an area right now, because I like to give things and be completely transparent with people, where I know that I'm not right where I wanna be is like in my best friends. I have very close friends of mine that have been very, very important to me my entire life. And I've been very focused on this business for the last couple of years. And when you're building something like this, something's gotta give. What it takes to do something out of the ordinary and create something so huge, you are for sure gonna be out of whack. I know that, but I'm okay with that at this time in my life. Where I'm currently at, what we're trying to do, I know that I'm not completely balanced. And when I find, and I know, just like we talk about intuitive eating, there's an intuitiveness about me when I'm at a place in business and financially and all that stuff, that all of a sudden I go, I'm here. You just hit the biggest chord with me, man. This is why I love podcasting with you guys because I feel like I'm right there. We look at health-wealth relationships. I'm in that wealth-building phase. And so I intuitively feel like, I was actually talking to Shauna from Organifer the other day. I was like, yeah, I go through moments where I'm so stoked about life and what I'm building and what we're creating with wellness force.   And I'm like, yeah, sometimes I feel lonely, but I'm also creating the castle. I'm also creating the kingdom right now. So I know that that's a temporary thing and we aren't our feelings. We aren't our emotions. As you know, we're the observer behind all those things. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at minepumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes Maths Anabolic, Maths Performance, and Maths Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Superbundle is like having Sal Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Superbundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at minepumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.


Next question is from J. M. Key, is it ever a good idea to listen to your appetite when it comes to nutrition? I feel like as long as we eat healthy and don't completely overdo it, our appetite should be a good indicator of how much food our body really needs. Oh yeah, I'm going to give you an answer, but there's a strong disclaimer here. So yes, your appetite is the best indicator of how much you should eat. Here's the disclaimer. Maybe for 5% of you. You have to have a healthy appetite, healthy meaning, not like when I say healthy appetite, some people think, oh, that means you have a big appetite. No, that's not what I mean. I mean a balanced appetite. You also have to understand how to read your body's signals and have a good relationship to food and your body and your emotions. Yeah, you have to understand cravings versus real hunger too. That's it. If you don't have that understanding, if you grew up in a way like most people where you valued food mainly for its flavor and its hedonistic value, if you've learned to eat food to make you feel better when you're stressed or anxious or depressed, if you have a body image where you don't like the way you look and so you've manipulated your food to change it in a way that's unhealthy, if you're like most people, your appetite is a terrible, initially is a terrible way to judge what you should eat because then people say, well, I'm hungry all the time. Like right now I could eat a donut, right now I could eat pizza, right? I just ate four slices of pizza. I'm still hungry for ice cream. They don't understand what real appetite means and they don't have a good connection. So it's like, it's almost like trying to read a map. It's like, is a map a real great way to navigate? It is if you know how to read a map. If you don't know how to read a map, it's just a piece of paper. It's not going to tell you anything. I don't know how to orient myself. I don't know where north is, south is. This map is, it's more valuable to me to burn it in a fire to keep me warm than it is to help me navigate your appetite. If you don't know how to read it and you don't have a good relationship with yourself and with food, it's not going to help. Yeah, I think this is a dangerous place for most people. I just really do. I just don't think there's a lot of people at this level. I think in order to be not only would you have had to really pay attention to all these markers of like how my skin is, how my sleep is, how my energy is, how my hair, my stool, not only you have to tease all that stuff out to really get an indicator on like how your body is responding to the foods that you're eating. You also probably have to be eating a 99% whole food diet, too. Yeah. Because that's the processed foods are engineered for you to make you want to eat more and in their calorie dense.   And then I had other ones where I did none at all. And this was just for personal. I was curious to if it would change how difficult was a diet. It would change the way my body looked on stage. And it was very minimal for the average person. But what I noticed was the cravings of those things. Like, you know, I would go from not having any protein bars whatsoever, then I'd have one and like, oh, my God, it would stimulate me wanting another one before you knew it. I was and because they're balanced macro wise, I could get up to eating four protein bars in a diet, still diet for a show and get in good shape and look good. But what I noticed was the way it would promote me to want to eat more and more of those, which made it more difficult for me to restrict in calories. So it really depends on how your current diet is, how much work you've put into really learning your body's natural signals of hunger or you being satisfied. So to me, there's a very, very small percentage of people that I mean, this is true intuitive eating, right? Like this is the the pinnacle that I think most of us are trying to get to. I mean, I'm in this over 20 years now and still don't think I've mastered this. I think I have a good, I think I have a good idea and a good control, but I don't think I've mastered it. Yeah, and two, you could just eat potatoes and be satisfied, but you could be malnourished, you know, at the same time. And so you have to put some thought and effort in what you're consuming still always. And that's just something that, you know, you don't want to just fly by one indicator alone. No, no, and in the past, I mean, it was what was available to you and whether or not you, you hunted something and killed it and then your, your body would tell you when to stop eating it. So you don't, because you could hurt yourself by overeating, but that wasn't hard to do because it wasn't heavily processed. I mean, heavily processed foods, which include supplements in many cases, like protein bars and shakes and that kind of stuff. They, that's their number one goal is to make them as, as palatable as possible, which essentially means overcoming your natural satiety signals. That's what it means. In fact, I don't care what food category there is. I don't care if it's health food, junk food, dessert, breakfast, lunch and dinner. If you want to guarantee yourself a number one selling food item, it has to be the one that is the most palatable. It doesn't matter. Even health foods, go through all the health food categories and pick the number one selling protein powder, the number one selling, it's the one that's the most palatable. It's not the one that is deemed the healthiest at all. So, so that's something you want to pay attention to. Now, and again, Adam talks about it being a pinnacle. It's, it's not, I wouldn't even say it's a pinnacle. It's not a destination. It's still, it's always a process. It's just a process of awareness. It's a process of deconditioning yourself from how you've always ate before and learning how to eat differently, you know, moving forward. But once you start to get the hang of it a little bit, you do start to read your, your hunger a little better. Now, I mean, years ago, I got to a point where I would eat a meal and I was able to identify when I was satisfied. Before that, I wasn't satisfied until I was way over full. Like I would eat, you know, at a family dinner and I'd eat, eat, eat and then I'd eat dessert and then at the end of the night, I'm like, I'm laying in bed and I'm, oh my God, I can't, I feel terrible. Like what have I done? Why do I always do this to myself? And then I'd repeat it again the next time around. I got to the point where, you know, I would eat a dinner and then I'd be like, I'm actually satisfied. I don't, I'm reading my appetite. I'm reading my satiety a little bit better. Whereas in the past, this maybe because the way I was raised or the way we enjoy or celebrate food, it was like, how much can you possibly fit in your mouth? Competition. Yeah. And in fact, you know, this is a saying in my family. They'd say, do you have room for more? Like, well, can you possibly squeeze? Let me think about it. Yeah, you know, see what we can make.