Okay, and we are live. I'm here with Frank DeFano.  Yeah for the most part. I mean, yeah I mean in the past few weeks to months. I've experimented with raw milk and raw dairy products and stuff like raw honey That does contain some carbohydrate content to some degree, but strictly animal foods Okay, all right close enough. I'd call that carnivore diet really I know typically carnivore diet Especially like today and well in the last few months it focuses around skeletal muscle tissue and yeah That's two people actually to organs. No, and there are problems with that. So, um For today, I wanted the debate to focus around the health consequences of a diet like this the carnivore diet or whatever You'd call it that you're following We'll discuss things like heart disease diabetes cancer. I know you wanted to bring up nutrient deficiencies among vegans or something and That's a very that's a very like, you know, it's not a topic That's been researched extensively and just the bioavailability of those plant nutrients in general is It's it's tough to really have a definite answer on that, but we could definitely discuss it. Okay. Um, why don't we start there then? Yeah, sure. So my idea is that you know in if we look at Indigenous diets or just basically what humans even in the past hundred years, you know If we go back a hundred years What pretty much every group of humans had to eat was a base amount of animal foods in their diet to get these Vitamins and then they would consume, you know Whatever foods were local to the area, whatever plant foods they had access to prepared in traditional ways. So maybe if you were in Sweden you would have rye bread with Various dairy products occasionally meat and maybe some whatever seasonal vegetables or produce so the premise is that every Group of these humans needed these fat soluble vitamins from these animal foods in their diet and that was constant across all planes of People whether they had but they had whether it was dairy whether it was fish Whether it was some form of meat whether it was like the Australian Aborigines where they literally had like hundreds of different wild animal foods As well as thousands of different wild plant foods The one constant is that they got a base amount of fat soluble vitamins in their diet now What becomes questionable is we have access to through, you know modern science and Modern food accessibility foods and supplements and things that we never had access to before so that's where it gets really questionable about The bioavailability of those supplements and if we could actually replicate that nutrient profile in a vegan diet but the overall problem with this idea is Most people don't understand the importance of having a nutrient-dense diet and most people don't really place a value on these fat soluble vitamins so the whole premise is based off of something that not Many people are confident in or place an importance on in their diet in general Okay, um, you know like a hundred and a hundred years ago and further back than that vitamin D deficiency and iodine deficiency was incredibly common among Americans Yeah among Americans, but I'm mostly referring to when there were still kind of groups of Almost untouched people not on American diet. I mean like tribes people or hunter-gatherers. Yeah, yeah Like I don't really want to reference Weston Price's book here But that's kind of those groups of people I'm referring to like people that are still living like off the land so to speak not Not really city people or When you when you reference Weston Price, you're not actually Like he was a dentist so I'm assuming you mean like the type of people he studied not like I'm referencing Those specific groups of people and the diets he saw those people following Okay You don't think any of them ever suffered from nutrient deficiencies Not necessarily. I mean very each of those tribes had to obtain They had to do they had to go out of their way to get certain like in the case of iodine I mean, there were some African tribes that would they would gather seaweed and burn it to ashes and use that to get their iodine And and a lot of I mean tribes literally they'd fight over certain sources of food because they needed they had deficiencies and they needed to get these What whether it's vitamin or mineral I mean you what did you mention iodine and was the other one you said well I said vitamin D and iodine like those were two big ones Yeah, I mean that can I mean yeah, I mean not everyone had access to those Those like the fish liver and the those fish organs and tissues that contain large amounts of vitamin D3 So, you know, not every that's why we see, you know, there was varying height differences between those tribes And even in some cases, they a lot of them had very very high infant mortality rates where the child cannot get enough nutrition during the younger years I'm not denying that they didn't I mean it's not that they didn't have Nutrient deficiencies. It's just that in the ideal context when they were able to obtain the food they needed They were in good health Okay, do you have any evidence that nutrient deficiencies were less common among these sorts of tribes people compared to modern times? I mean, what's that's a very broad question. I mean you literally Yeah, I mean you'd have times where if like and I've read and this was when I was reading like some articles about Aborigines and they're like very kind of I guess not so moral practices and in like times when Famine if they gave birth to a child, they would literally take that child They would I mean they'd kill it and they'd feed it to the other There are other children, you know, very very Apparent just things that happen in nature, you know where animals go for weeks and months without food or Things happen and the crop wasn't good. There are plenty of examples of Nutrient deficiencies in indigenous groups But you know for the most part when these people, you know, these people were an excellent physical health in a lot of cases except for those specific examples Okay, what metric are you using to say they're in excellent physical health? Mainly physical physical facial development physical stature overall absence of degenerative disease Absence of degenerative disease, you know, according to the heart before before they are introduced to a Modern diet Okay, not necessarily modern diet before like refined foods and their their indigenous foods are replaced Atherosclerosis has existed in every population all throughout human history You should take a look at the horse study even pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations had atherosclerosis. So so there is a difference between the plaque build-up and Calcification of arterial walls there both those people actually those people actually from the from what I Don't know if I read exactly what you did But what I'm thinking in my mind those people literally had fat marbling in their arteries Yeah, had nothing to do with inflammation Yeah, that's because they're eating high amounts of saturated fat and cholesterol or at least enough to cause the build-up of atherosclerosis Are you trying to suggest that? Calcification of these plaques makes them dangerous and when they're not calcified. They're not dangerous. I Mean do we have I mean do we want to go into like what causes why heart diseases actually cause like the Like is that what you're suggesting here? Just repeat what you just said. Are you trying to suggest that? Calcification of these plaques is what makes them dangerous and they're not dangerous when the plaques aren't calcified No, I mean it's mainly the the inflammatory fats and oxidized fats rancid fats I Mean this this is not like this is not like a blanket statement I'm going to make like I'm in regards to just how Explaining how heart disease is caused and it's like literally like a 20-minute explanation to get people to understand that Okay, well no you agree that Ancient people including pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers developed atherosclerosis, correct So atherosclerosis the definition of it being the buildup of fats cholesterol and other substances in and on the arterial walls I think it's a different. I think they use a different terminology. I mean, I don't have that I'll have the I'm trying to think of what the reference was that I were they actually like because there's a difference between the physical having marbling and that in the walls that's not inflammatory versus the actual like what this definition of atherosclerosis is Okay, are you talking about stable versus unstable plaques? No, I'm not I'm talking I just I let me just do like there's like like I understand There's different degrees in atherosclerosis progression Like are you are you saying like their atherosclerosis wasn't severe? I'm saying the type of atherosclerosis they had we had nothing to an inflammation and was not harmful to their health What so atherosclerosis isn't harmful to your health unless it's causing inflammation We're not we're not talking about that's the thing. We're not talking about I'm not talking about atherosclerosis I'm talking about the type of marbling they had in their arteries or What do you mean by marbling in their arteries? I'm just one sec. I'm reading Do you have the do you have the you said the horse study? Yeah Let me find a link for you. This is like a this is like a really specific like this is a super specific topic that I didn't I didn't look into the specific references You should read the study atherosclerosis across 4,000 years of human history the horse study of four ancient populations and they found atherosclerosis even in pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers I Don't know what you mean by marbling along the arterial wall That's atherosclerosis when you have fatty streaks going across the arterial wall. That's atherosclerosis It sounds like you're kind of confused with what's the title of the what's the title of the horse study? Okay, let me ask you like horse study atherosclerosis across 4,000 years of human history the horse study of four ancient populations Or they do you know the ancient populations I'll stop your head Let's see ancient Egypt ancient Peru ancestral Plab loans of South Africa and the unagon of the Aleutian Islands Yeah, of the Aleutian Islands Okay, let me just do you have the I Don't know. I just know I have the abstract. I just don't have the full data Okay, well, you don't really need it. Um, they did find atherosclerosis in all of these mummified remains The point being is is the but this has nothing but I I don't know What I don't know what their diets were. I don't know. I don't know anything about these people to speculate on Well, that's fine, but you're making like that's fine But you're making the claim that ancient hunter-gatherer populations. They were in great health They didn't suffer from chronic disease. This is not ancient hunter guy. This is 4,000 years of ancient That's you can and certain ancient Egypt not have Ancient Egyptians and especially in this period. They weren't hunter-gatherers. I agree. They're very far from that This is this is neolithic. This is not really this study Well, I have which I just didn't want to I didn't even want to really go into this because your point is speaking on the modern medical terminology of atherosclerosis, but If you're saying that okay, let's let's hypothetically say that okay Let's say atherosclerosis is present was present in these hunter-gatherers even if it was What you know, what is like do you have like a reference for them dropping dead of heart attacks? Like I don't understand where you're going with this even if I do even if I can which it would probably take me a Few minutes of googling. I don't maybe even more than a few minutes I probably have to ask a few of my buddies if they know What the study I'm referring to was Even if I can prove that there is a difference between the marbling and the arterial walls of certain Indigenous tribes and hunters like let me see if I just Google Masai, okay, it sounds like you're confusing Mortality from heart disease with actual prevalence of the disease. Oh, no, I'm saying I'm saying the You're I'm saying that atherosclerosis Even if even if these people did have marbling the artist whatever it may be What what is what is your like? I don't understand. What's your end point? Like we know there's an My my point is you're trying to claim these people were in great health They didn't suffer from any chronic diseases when they did They didn't I mean they didn't suffer from degenerative diseases and they didn't have any well, what do you mean by degenerative disease? I mean, it's it's interesting because if you get Like there is there's a sky on the Joe Rogan podcast talking about how When the monkeys these monkeys started eating garbage they developed tuberculosis very rapidly over the course of a few generations and died but It's interesting that we see groups of Indigenous peoples that when whether it was European settlers or people from the countries that have subsisted at with like these diseases for periods these populations were literally even though they were in perfect health and On their Indigenous diets. They were completely wiped out by certain diseases. So that's because they didn't have close proximity to animals They didn't have agriculture. So they didn't actually get used to these diseases They didn't have that immune system built up. So they got wiped out. Yeah, I mean, I'm bringing that I was that is those the diseases you're referring to or you referring to just like Specifically and I still don't understand what you mean by degenerative disease. You mean like Alzheimer's? Yeah Alzheimer's back then Have you I mean, do you understand that any any sort of study done on an Indigenous group based off of mortality if Like are you saying they live to 30 40 years old only that's life expectancy? No, that's not average That is affected by infant mortality, but that was the average and these if you any Any like so if you look at any up any sort of tribe Indigenous Aborigines, there are plenty I mean the majority of these people barring Getting stabbed with a spear live into I mean, what's your measure for for life? It's like we have people dropping we have now we have babies getting cancer We have women miscarrying at rates higher than we've seen before We have all these modern problems than degenerative disease with young people dying and now explain degenerative disease I'm still not clear what you mean by that. Let me if you're going to say specific things Kind of modern in a sense that they've any disease that has raised over the past, you know 40 50 years from obesity to Diabetes arthritis Alzheimer's All all of those diseases for the most part that We can speculate our cause by modern lifestyle modern diets and things like that Okay. Well things like Diabetes it is largely affected by body mass if you're obese You're at a massively increased risk of diabetes Physical activity affects it so I wouldn't expect to find high rates of diabetes in hunter-gatherer Populations, even if they're eating a lot of animal products just because they eat so little calories their body mass is so low and they have my overall my overall point in this is if there were if there were consequences and any problems That we're seeing now from what your atherosclerosis things you're claiming Where is any evidence that that these problems occurred in these groups of people there isn't any horse like the horse study I just referenced and it's not Population has had atherosclerosis That's not that's 4,000 years neolithic is you know the neolithic period is what like 12 13,000 started This does not this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about Listen just because the like a certain group of people entered the neolithic age And started agriculture that doesn't mean every human population practiced agriculture around that time again That's I said with this study that you keep saying the horse study I don't have the whole abstract I can't read and I'm sure that they didn't even write down what these people were eating you don't know those things That's my point this study doesn't matter. Well, there's still pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations This is not this is this has nothing you don't know you're saying ancient Egyptians ancient Peruvians I'm not saying ancient Egyptians. No, some of the African ancient Egyptians ancient Peruvians and session we don't know the diets of these people and I can't look at the day This is no, but the point is that agricultural hunter-gatherer populations not the Egyptians, but the Africans But they're lumped together with these other people like this this study is not lumped together They they looked at their their rates of atherosclerosis in these mummies and the pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations Still had atherosclerosis. I'm saying I'm saying three different things pretty much about this study that I think makes it inadmissible from The lack of data I have to analyze this we shouldn't even look into it further to Hypothetically, even if they did have atherosclerosis and problems What is your like? What is your end summary that they just had atherosclerosis here? You don't have anything about, you know, they're their life expectancy the disease rates of these people what they died from You don't have that data and it's it's just simply looking at rates of atherosclerosis This is pointless. This is like I shouldn't have even got like yes This is exactly pointless I don't have this because if you actually wanted to talk on something specifically like this It would take like an hour or two of just looking at the data of the studies and and trying to make sense of it as opposed To making a blanket statement about atherosclerosis Frank I'm not like I don't think you understand what I'm saying You're making the claim that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations didn't suffer from chronic diseases like heart I'm not making I'm not I'm I'm explaining to you that if you want to prove that this and I have to be apparently very specific if you want to prove there is some sort of detrimental effect of Atherosclerosis or any I'm not necessarily saying that I'm asking you to prove that Your idea of atherosclerosis and all these saturated fencing. Where is the body count? What is what is your basis? You know this going into this discussion. There shouldn't be any Frank Frank You're conflating Mortality from heart disease with prevalence of the disease if we were to go back a hundred years ago in this country heart disease deaths from heart disease would be massively reduced just because Prevalence of death from infectious disease was massively high So if you were to go back like 4,000 years and look at these ancient hunter-gatherer populations They probably had a high prevalence of heart disease because they enough saturated fat and cholesterol to build up plaques and their arteries But the rates of deaths from the disease were very very low because one the life expectancy wasn't long enough for heart disease to actually become Like clinically significant where they'd actually suffer heart attacks And they just die from everything else from infectious disease warfare injuries things like that and nutritional deficiencies Which I'm sure were quite common as you admitted to because these people did have to rely on See like just you know the food. They actually gathered You're completely basing this off of the the life expectancy that you're referencing Well, you're basing a lower life expectancy and that's part of the reason you can't just say they did have a lower life It's when you have to say that you have to show the data and say why they had a lower life expectancy Well, well the biggest factor is child mortality. Yes, but infant infant mortality So infant mortality means that their speculative age is what 60 70 80 once they passed that developmental stage That is Listen, there's two there's two ways of measuring average life expectancy There's a way where you include child mortality Which does obviously like especially in these populations excuse it more towards a much younger age And you can calculate it by life expectancy Once you reach a certain age. I think normally it's 12 or something But you can't you can't just say you cannot say These people had apheloscorrhosis and the reason they didn't die as a result of it Is because they didn't live long enough when you can't actually furnish information. I absolutely can life expectancy Study on the life expectancy and what the context is Well, what do you mean like even if we go back a hundred years? What is the data that you're looking at for life expectancy? What is that data you're you're talking about? Well, look Frank life expectancy has increased in modern times That's just an indisputable fact even when you account We're gonna let's move on to another topic. I'll ask this one more time if not Let's move on to something else you your basis is on That they didn't live long enough, but what like study or what article or what are you referencing for the life expectancy that you're saying What exact what group of people are you referencing? What? You're just making up numbers. That's what you're doing. Okay. No Frank I'm not referencing any particular research here. It's just well known that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations had a lower life Expectancy because when you account no, no, no when you would even when you account for child mortality You're saying they live just as long as we do today if if the if that period of developmental Developmental period the child mortality was passed They would that's what I said they would live to 60 70 80 there's and this is leave I believe it ranges from 55 to 65 depending on the group You're you're referring to and then and then in it so let's say that it that is the hypothetical we and then you're saying That then they would have died from heart disease if they did live So where's all the the history of these people that did live past?  That's a very very single one But ever so everyone that got to 70 would just drop instantly dropped out of a heart attack That's what you're saying. No, no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying prevalence of heart disease existed It's just that it didn't develop to the point where it's clinically significant I asked you like three times. Where is the where is the you know, where's the body count? Where's the like the problem is both what I'm saying both what I'm saying Hold on a lot both what I'm saying and both what you're saying Honestly at this point, there's no real merit to it And I like just to move on to another topic because we're both making statements about data that we're not a hundred percent sure on and that We can't reference. Can we move on to something? Well, no, this is actually kind of important Frank Like I want to know what you're actually trying to claim here Are you trying to suggest that pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations had the same average life expectancy as Modern humans even when you account for infant mortality. All right, let me see if this answers that question and We're not really even talking about Pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers. We're talking about people that were still living in almost like a primitive way where they would have You know, maybe they weren't completely hunter-gatherers like indigenous aborigines subsisting only off of wild plant and animal foods Maybe they were a group of people like like maybe the Gaelics who had 50 to 60 percent of their calories from fish And then they had a lot of oats and various Vegetables that grew in that area maybe like this group of people that once they And this is I mean, this is a group of people that might not have had such high infant mortality problems but once they got past that stage of Child development once they got past that then yeah, then they would live a happy healthy life pretty much it Let me see if I could find a study.   Did heart disease exist in ancient populations? Yes or no? I Mean, you don't have evidence for it. I don't have evidence against it. No, you don't that is not evidence for it Yeah, the first study I just referenced is evidence for it. They had atherosclerosis and if you want to want to keep referencing this study I have to know it's good research what these people are eating. No, it's not what they were eating No, Frank, it's completely irrelevant what they're eating. The fact is ancient populations had heart disease and These are not these are not these are not any groups of people that I would talk about or I would reference on my side of the argument That's why I've been saying for the past 20 minutes We should move on to something else if this is the studies we're gonna talk about and where if we're just gonna like Hypothetically speak about things is to me. This is pointless Okay I just want to make it clear that heart disease has existed in every human population throughout history Doesn't matter what their their diets were whether we know their diets The fact is heart disease in prevalent all throughout human history what this shoddy research that's been done on Mommy Let me go they do they found mummified remains and they they x-rayed them and they found They found atherosclerosis. How's that shoddy research? So what are we gonna you want to like fly over to Egypt? You want to dig up a few bodies and start looking at their heart from like three thousand years ago Like this is completely this to me. This study is just completely ridiculous and why even if Sorry Frank Frank listen, you're making a statement on some mummies dug up three thousand years ago and applying it to everything in the Past look Frank Frank Um Why is that a bad way of determining prevalence of heart disease in ancient populations? Do you have a better method of research that you're using the term ancient populations? And you're saying and this is a study doesn't agent. This is still in the Neolithic period This is not four thousand isn't ancient. I mean what depending on whatever your definition of ancient is But I'm not talking about ancient mummies. I'm talking about various indigenous groups that yeah, and that followed these diets And do you know what mummified means? Yes preserved Well, you can well no listen Mummified just means it it doesn't mean there's been some sort of human intervention in preserving the corpse like with the what the Egyptians did It just means it's remains of human being that have been preserved in in any manner Like in Africa for instance like you can find mummified remains that have just been buried in the sand and because it's so dry Their bodies fucking mummified is you don't have to like right so so Frank Um, I'm just asking you do you have a better better method of trying to figure out the prevalence of atherosclerosis in these ancient populations then digging up mummified remains and Seeing like doing a CAT scans or x-rays and seeing or MRIs And seeing whether or not they have atherosclerosis in their in their arteries My point is this like this whole idea. I think I've kind of explained this loosely over the past 30 minutes It's it's just this is not something that's relevant. You're taking this you're digging up People from 4,000 years ago. You don't know what they ate.  That's completely irrelevant The point I'm making is these ancient people including pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer populations had high prevalence of atherosclerosis But you're lumping your doesn't matter Can't lump pre-agricultural which would be over 12 15,000 years ago with not necessarily Crazy Frank Frank not every single group in human history was at that the same level of technological advance advancement For instance what Rome was using Bronze Age technology well before Another group that actually There are still indigenous civilizations now, I think they're off the yeah, there are close to whatever But that's not the point is the point the point is it what I'm saying What if you what in my mind if you want to say this you would have to have a Specific reference from a period of time and my point that I'm staying with is we cannot we're specula all we're doing is Speculating with information that is not correct. That's all we're doing right now on this one information isn't correct if if you were to say to me that In these four specific people ancient Peruvians ancient Pueblans These four specific groups of people within the past few thousand years And we don't know how old this corpse was how all these people like we don't know They do that there are methods of determining what yeah, but I don't the point is I don't have I don't have the data You're not you're not giving me specific examples and going in depth on this data We don't have anything we can really reference and and make something reasonable out of it You're just making the statement saying that in these specific people within the past 4,000 years have a thrill sclerosis Okay, that doesn't apply to really what I'm talking about that doesn't apply You can't say that applies to all indigenous people. You cannot say Yeah, you can when you look at you can but it wasn't that long ago from that long ago from very different Backgrounds there were pre-agricultural hunter-gatherers And there were people from Neolithic era populations like the Egyptians. They all had high prevalence of atherosclerosis So it's very safe to assume that every other population in human history has suffered from atherosclerosis And this is the best data available The only way to look at atherosclerosis prevalence in ancient populations is to find mummified remains Do an MRI on their corpses and see whether or not there like their arteries are clogged with This has nothing to this literally does not matter because it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about bringing up something like Like This is not a point I would talk on like I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you that I'm not disagreeing I had atherosclerosis for these in these Mummified remains from 4,000 years ago to now. It will not disagreeing. I'm saying that it's pointless to talk about this Frank Is there any population in the world that doesn't have any Mount atherosclerosis prevalence?  It really is like okay Well, no Frank. You're trying to claim that these people eating a traditional diet quote-unquote that were mostly hunter-gathering They had really low rates of disease and I'm trying to point out. That's not the case. They have high prevalence of atherosclerosis So clearly what they were eating was causing them to have disease now whether or not they died from those diseases is a different thing But they did have these diseases. You're saying these groups of people had atherosclerosis But the study you're showing has nothing to do with the people I'm talking about Okay Well, do you have any evidence that the people you're talking about? Did not suffer from atherosclerosis atherosclerosis? this is the the burden of proof is not on Whether or not they had atherosclerosis because you're doing studies on people that you don't know what their diet is That is my the whole basis of me explaining this is that they are on a particular diet To tell me what the diet is if you're not able to tell me specifics then Well, Frank, okay, show me like a hunter-gatherer population or whatever population of people you want Show me that they don't have like atherosclerosis or it's incredibly insignificant among their culture Wish I had time to do this instead of sprints Google and studies don't have no exist Okay, Frank. I think you know it's very safe to assume that atherosclerosis has existed all throughout human history in Because the atherosclerosis existed in the mummies your buddies dug up for the past 4,000 years. That's what you're saying Okay, well, do you have any evidence otherwise like again? This is the only evidence we have The only way to measure atherosclerosis prevalence in ancient people is to dig up mom I just googled I've never looked at this before abstract is The hearts in a order of 50 messiah men were collected at autopsy. These pistol people are exceptionally I'll link. Does there a chat in Google Hangouts that I could yeah, there is Here you go The meat intake Do you want me to read it? Do you want the meat intake of animal fat exceeds that of American men measurements of the order showed extensive atherosclerosis with lipid Infiltration and fibrous changes, but very few complicated lesions the coronary artery showed intimate thickening by atherosclerosis Which equal that of all the US men the messiah vessels enlarge with age to more and compensate for this disease It is speculated that messiah are protected from their atherosclerosis by physical fitness, which causes their coronary vessels to be capaceous Frank they have heart disease the study you just linked me It means that they have high prevalence of heart disease And so this is what this is what I was This is why I was asking you earlier that you need to show What why these people aren't dropping dead of heart like there's no data showing that these people are we're dropping that It doesn't matter Frank. It doesn't know no Frank Frank that what matters is prevalence of disease There are a lot of different things that can modulate deaths from disease including life expectancy Rates of death from other illness, but they do have heart disease I feel like I feel like people are gonna feel like this is has not been productive so far So can I try to like just explain what I think you're trying to get at and then what I'm trying to get at real quick sure sure so Initially my point was to kind of say okay Yes, they have atherosclerosis and build up of arterial plaque in the wall But it would be very difficult from our modern understanding of medicine to explain why these people are not dropping dead of heart Attacks, but they evidently were not despite modern evidence saying that atherosclerosis does cause heart disease now For me to say something like in this in this study that says the messiah vessels enlarge with age to more than compensate for disease For me to say that these people Yeah, for me to say that these people are immune to the disease is Is not really to me that is not like to me a marketable or like something that would be Something that people would just take for granted as The atherosclerosis and the heart disease and the plaque build up in the arterial wall has been something that's been shown in such a negative light Especially in the context of modern medicine whereas it's something that would in these people it occurs naturally They have and and they have no problems with it. Oh, well, they do It's just that typically the enlargement of their blood vessels compensates for this also again Higher prevalence of Disease in in other aspects like infectious disease. It might modulate their risk of death from heart disease You also have to consider like these people have a very different lifestyle. They eat very low calorie diets They also use a lot of medicinal herbs and medicine and they also often suffer from infectious diseases including things like malaria and That does affect risk of death from heart disease Because a lot of these diseases actually reduce serum cholesterol. Yeah, there's like there's a group of people that are like immune to malaria, right as well Um, you hear about that completely immune. I mean they have it but like they don't really suffer from it Well, it's it's because of sickle cell anemia a lot of Africans have it So yeah, like I mean there's adaptations in these in these sorts of cultures to the diseases in the area but I mean um that also can modulate The risk for some of these diseases. I mean, okay, the messai they're Their blood vessels widen somehow with age That could be a genetic thing that could be an effect of like their specific lifestyle of eating a very very low calorie diet But you have to understand most of the all of these indigenous groups that I'm referring to subsisted on What we eat now if not less than the amount of calories we eat now and they were all Similar in regards to their levels of physical activity and physical stress that they had to make lives I mean the constant between these people that are immune to these diseases is those factors They tend to eat low calorie diets and they're also often infected with Parasites and infectious diseases particularly malaria and those two things reduce serum cholesterol And serum cholesterol is the principal risk factor for heart disease so again Like you can reference these tribes people all you want But you're not really understanding their real diet lifestyle a disease prevalence and how that affects heart disease risk again Like looking at the messai You can't just say oh saturated fat and cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease Because the messai eat a very low calorie diet They have a proportionately high amount of physical activity very low body mass And they also often suffer from infectious diseases and parasitic infections like that just that claim just doesn't make any sense so in regards to if the only way that wouldn't make sense is if the parasitic diseases you're referencing and the the Malaria and stuff which wasn't present in these people specifically We can I don't know if we could assume that but It's if those parasites and those suffer from malaria. I mean it's I wouldn't I don't know if that's a blanket term for all messiah but those previous factors you mentioned Don't really matter because those can be replicated But the malaria if the malaria and the sickle cell thing was proven to be that literally the only reason why they're alive then That's a different discussion to be had but if that can't be said then it doesn't really you know like I mean from Like what is what is the point of you saying that these people were on like a low calorie diet that was restricted that because Well, are you implying that are you implying that are you implying right now that just if people follow the carnivore diet now They're just over consuming way too much meat and that's this isn't relevant because I agree with that. That's the case No, my problem is if you're eating any like pretty much any amount of meat You have to be on a very very strict plant-based diet to not cause progression of atherosclerosis And especially if you're on a very heavy meat diet like you are even if you're eating things like organs and things other than skeletal muscle your your intake of saturated fat and cholesterol is Way way too high and you're you're causing a build-up of plaques in your arteries Which will eventually lead to like clinically significant heart disease where you're gonna have an increased risk of heart attack stroke So let's say hypothetically I Replicate the exact lifestyle of the messiah with the exception of having you know sickle cell anemia and Parasitic infections they don't all have sickle cell and sickle cell is actually a big risk factor for stroke Well, let I mean so Let's say I do Replicate the lifestyle and diet of the messiah. Would you believe that I would develop these Conditions where I would be pretty much you think so even the study you just referenced it said they have high prevalence of heart disease It's just that as they age their vessel walls and large I don't know why that happens. I'd actually like to see other research on this, but You would still get heart disease they like the study you referenced yourself says they have very high prevalence of heart disease It's just that a lot of them get away with it because of confounding other confounding factors So why would that not apply to my diet right now? Why would I mean? You don't have the same you don't have the same diet and you don't have the same lifestyle. I Mean how sure of that are you? Well, do they eat cheese? Do the do they steak every day? I don't I mean I should have made one thing very clear before this I follow Pretty much. I mean my diet if you compare it to a messiah, it's pretty much the same thing. It really is I I've seen daily like I've seen a few of your food vlogs. No, it's not well what I ate yesterday was I had I Had some I'd stood I stood the vertebrae of lamb and then I had a little liver and some other organs And that's all I ate small amount active all day you ate lamb liver and what else? The vertebral column the spinal cord I boiled it down in in a pot with and then just had the meat So you ate lamb skeletal muscle tissue you had liver you know, I mean Most people don't I mean people don't really eat that vertebral tissue. It has a lot of collagen a lot of High vitamin fat. There's just tissues in there That would be kind of this is something that like a tribesperson would and then the day before that I just had a bunch of organs and some blood and and that was really it but my diet for the most part has been Majority, you know, I have organs every day majority my calories come from fairly lean Well, not majority of my calories, but more fluffly half my calories come from skeletal Meat and in the past I used to have a lot of raw dairy too as that So I would say my diet is very very different than what most carnivores and zero car people are following Well, I'd agree with that I'd still say it's quite a bit different than the messiah They like their primary calories calorie sources milk and blood they tend to avoid killing their cattle And you know, they do occasionally eat steak and shit and they also do consume medicinal herbs in their region But the point is their diet causes heart disease, so why would you eat a diet that causes heart disease? It's just that for whatever reason, maybe it's confounding lifestyle factors or maybe they have a Some sort of genetic like a genetic resistance to the disease where their arteries will actually expand They get they get away with not dying from heart disease at a very high rate But the prevalence of heart disease is extraordinarily high So why would you eat a diet like that when there's ways of just like avoiding heart disease entirely? Well, I can I can answer that in sec, but I did want to ask you what would be You know, you're saying the messiah get a lot of their yeah, they do consume a Lower calorie diet. They do get the majority of their calories from much more nutrient-dense foods But what would be the concern about I mean, yeah, I mean, I obviously agree that eating You know two three pounds of grain fed ribeye from Costco is completely ridiculous, but in just regards to like what would be the reason specifically that you think that would be So much worse just in the context of diet like let's say you took a messiah tribesman And he just ate the grain fed steak a day instead of what he was eating. Why would that be? I'm just trying to It's not necessarily worse. I'm just saying Like these diets that are high in saturated fat cholesterol they cause heart disease and the the research you linked to me Demonstrates that they have very high prevalence of heart disease So why would you eat a diet that causes heart disease when you can avoid it entirely by eating a relatively low fat whole foods vegan diet? well, I mean What I spoke about earlier where every group of people had a base amount of fat soluble vitamins in our diet in order to be in What I would consider have proper physical development proper physical health It's just that base Fat are you like me like more like personal like me why I do it or as opposed to like just like because right now I'm trying to explain why someone would do it as opposed to just me personally No, why would well? Why would you or anyone eat a diet? Okay, I'm saturated fat and cholesterol which has been proven to cause heart disease When you could avoid heart disease entirely because those are the only foods accessible really in nature that have the vitamins and Well, mostly vitamins require it to just survive. That's basically it okay so what nutrients can you not get on a vegan diet and Would that would the lack of these nutrients actually reduce Or sorry increase like all-cause mortality risk to the point where it's more worth it from a health perspective To eat a diet high in saturated fat and cholesterol which causes heart disease as opposed to eating a vegan diet Which lowers your risk of chronic disease? But supposedly you won't get enough of these nutrients and that that'll cause health health problems. So I mean This goes back to what I said earlier about, you know, now we have access to modern supplements and Extracts of the certain vitamins that can be used on a V I mean no one I've literally never seen a vegan that takes all these supplements, but I Theoretically we could what do I need as a vegan? Yeah, I mean theoretically we could replicate. I mean Under the assumption you get vitamin D3 from the Sun Well listen Virtually every group of people is vitamin D deficient Yeah, I agree with that. You're talking about now, right? Sorry, you're talking about like now. I Think it's existed all throughout human history Some few exceptions, but why would you think why would you think people who spent like five eight ten hours a day outside a day? We're vitamin D deficient. Oh like they're being studies on friggin Californian surfers and they're still vitamin D deficient. They spend all day in the sun Like almost naked. I mean but a Californian surfer is not like so you need other you need other Vitamins and minerals and things to metabolize vitamin D3. It's not just Right, I understand that but it's it's not very reliable to rely on just the Sun for D3 And that's why there's a massive prevalence of vitamin D deficiency Especially with people who have darker skin think in the United States like 83% of blacks have vitamin D deficiency So it's just a good idea to supplement D3. I agree. Yeah, I mean I think Frank Frank. Here's the issue Let's say like certain like these certain fat soluble vitamins You can only get it from animals or you take a supplement.  Which increases heart disease risk? Yeah, I could speak on each of them individually. So vitamin D3 I'm not I don't you know I looked into what the deep the vegan version of D3 was made from and I honestly couldn't It's made from like a type of fungus It's a type of fungus But yeah, that's to me that doesn't make sense because I didn't know that I thought D2 occurred in fungus I didn't realize it was D3 D2 occurs in fungus But there's also a certain type of fungus that produces D3 Yeah, so I mean in the case of like D3 made from these foods or ladle in sheep's wool They you have to use hexane They have to use solvents to extract the D3 and then they use a carrier oil And I usually just rub the oil on my skin. So I don't necessarily think that the the supplements are Too harmful, but what I've noticed per like I've personally had insomnia problems when I just take a supplement Without the present without the presence of the other fat soluble vitamins. Okay, so what what supplement are you talking about? Just any like D3 and M in any sort of olive oil or whatever Okay, I mean what's what I mean? I'm just curious. What's the I mean the D3? I agree with you And I think everyone should supplement D3. So do you want to just go to the other part of it? Well, yeah I remember you mentioning on Twitter's like when you DM to me you mentioned vitamin a in particular. Yeah, so Vitamin a in the form of retinoic acid to my understanding the only supplement that comes close might be retinopomatate and it retinoic acid is used we know it's used for a lot of Just cell functions in the body in general and we know that the body does convert carotenoids to retinoic acid at various rates depending on the food in the context that you know a small amount of saturated fats are present but Nothing to me indicates either from my personal anecdotes. We're consuming large amounts of carotenoid foods with fat and Studies that I've looked at and the problem I have is that it's questionable We don't really have data shown, you know, we know some groups of people can't metabolize the carotenoid To buy to retinoic acid at all and we know that this form of retinoic acid in humans is just incredibly important for Health in general. Okay. Do you have any research showing that vegans have a higher prevalence of vitamin a deficiency than meat eaters? I mean, it's not necessarily about in this discussion about vitamin a it's not really about deficiency. It's about You know having a high vitamin a content can kind of just help met up optimize just your whole metabolism in general and I mean Okay, you know human human store human store Fatsiable vitamins in their liver and their tissues. So I think to answer that question We would have to literally have data on You know the liver the vitamin a store in the liver of a vegan versus different people we'd need data to Vegans have lower vitamin a status, but they don't have lower rates of vitamin a deficiency and That's not associated with increased prevalence of any type of disease Your body. Yeah, listen. No, listen, let me let me finish Your body regulates vitamin a production because you need a range of it too little is harmful too much is harmful I can cause liver problems and also bone abnormalities and It like it's especially a risk for women because they have a higher risk of bone diseases But your your own body synthesizes vitamin a and it regulates vitamin a production So those those little problems and listen, listen, well, listen, let me finish So why would you take like a fully formed source of vitamin a and consume that to ensure that you're not vitamin a Ate efficient when your body regulates this process very well on its own Increasing risk of having too much vitamin a in your in your system You mean you what you're saying you mean consuming like liver is a risk for too much vitamin a Whereas if you just get the plant form your body will regulate it properly. Yeah, okay So my problem with that is all and let me just find my my studies on it Any and all that those bone problems the liver problems all those things you're associated with vitamin a toxicity or actually With the plant form supplement those are not with There's the case there. Yeah, that's though. That's what you're referring to the No vitamin a so vitamin a supplements are either come in the form of fully formed retinol or they come in Just the crotinoid form The crotinoid the crotinoid form isn't dangerous because again your body has to Your body has to produce the fully formed vitamin a itself All those things are associated with high high vitamin a supplementation. That was my point Yeah, typically, but most people aren't eating liver every single day Yes, so my Con so my point is that any case there has never been a case of or any data showing that consumption of I Mean and there's plenty of people on this diet that consume pounds and pounds of liver per day and they don't Illustrate symptoms that these people do where do you have any research? This is sounding like anecdotal claims. Yeah, I have it right here So I made up a post on I'm gonna link this to you. I made a post on reddit showing several hyper vitamin osis a studies in people that took Plantforms versus people that consumed carnivorous fish liver and when they consume the carnivorous fish liver it was symptoms actually associated with heavy metal poisoning as opposed to as opposed to the actual hyper vitamin osis a and There has been no research that I've been able to find that indicates that you can Your body will not be able to regulate excess intake of vitamin a but this isn't really this isn't I don't know How relevant this is just to my idea that High vitamin a consumption through retinolic acid is beneficial for overall metabolic function. That would be More difficult for you to prove outside of anecdotes Like I'm just quickly looking over the studies you linked me This is all with like case reports where people were consuming vitamin a supplement supplements Do you have like anything in the form of maybe? Like do you have case reports involving like just very high liver consumption? Or maybe like a randomized trial ideally the only thing in on the first part of that the first link Let me just double check The first the first link the first link in that post is the carnivorous fish liver reports That's all that's really there wait a second Okay, the first link I saw was a Pediatric case study where a child was just consuming a toxic amount of vitamin a through supplementation Let me just You mean 23 month old Chinese go presented to the emergency room of vomiting irritability She consumed four pieces of fish liver the night before that's not what you're looking at. Oh, okay Yeah, okay, so This is a cute vitamin a toxicity from consuming fish liver Well, we don't know if it's necessary because those are also symptoms that they Showed from that you could get from copper toxicity as well Her grandfather who ate the fish liver had similar symptoms. Yeah, this is fish high in copper the prop Well, no carnivorous fish liver is very high in heavy metals and the point of The point of this showing this study that ingesting carnivorous fish liver is not a good idea is that? Carnivorous animals accumulate incredibly high amounts of vitamin a and copper and these metals in comparison to normal Ruminants and normal livers that we would be eating More along the lines of dozens to hundreds of times higher So by looking at this and what happens to these people that consume this carnivorous fish liver If if hyper vitamin osis a was possible on a zero-carb carnivore diet We would see these symptoms in people more often. Okay, there's acute toxicity and there's chronic toxicity And they're both harmful But this seems like fish liver causes acute toxicity where it's much harder to do with something like beef liver But you have people literally consuming on this diet People I've seen people eating half a pound to a pound of beef liver a day for months Okay, and and this and there's no evidence that like again These are anecdotal claims. I'd like to actually see a case report or something at the very least I mean, I'm in the you know, I'm in the same boat as you I know the liver does regulate. I mean, you said earlier the liver regulates your vitamin a intake, but I Mean my I don't know why I went into this The only real point I had was that there are benefits to consuming high vitamin a that many people see and this is again completely anecdotal Just because vitamin a in the form of retinolic acid is using so many metabolic processes and the liver has a Version of it. That's more available to the body But to me this wasn't really listen this this like really ultimately comes down to overall health outcomes Do you have any evidence that consuming vitamin a through carrots or sweet potatoes is less healthful? Then consuming it through something like liver like beef liver. It's not necessarily that it's less healthful It's just the bioavailability in a lot of context is questionable about how well availability is Like it's a throwaway term What matters is whether or not you're getting an adequate supply of vitamin a there's no data showing that vegans have Like higher rates of vitamin a deficiencies compared to meat eaters and the point being like are you really telling me that sweet potatoes and carrots Aren't aren't as healthy as beef liver Well, that's that's a different. That's a very different question because beef liver is pretty much nutritionally complete But my the reason I didn't really want to complete you can have something that's nutritionally complete But it's terrible for you. I didn't want to touch on that. I didn't really want to debate this I just wanted to bring up The post it was more like bringing it up and possibility because I said earlier It's very difficult because of the lack of data we have to talk about these things I just wanted to bring them up as kind of an idea more as opposed to actually debating on whether or not It's necessary because I don't have an answer for that and you don't have an answer for that Well, yeah, I do vitamin a prevalent or sorry prevalence of vitamin a deficiency isn't any higher among vegans and Things like carrots and sweet potatoes They're protective against chronic disease or something like beef lever liver is not Where I well then I I mean it you I you could say that but by answer I mean something based off of evidence. I could say something like well beef liver has a much higher retinoc acid content that is bioavailable to the body so Whether or not you're getting a questionable amount of vitamin a that's ideal for the body is out of the question You're definitely getting plenty of vitamin a and then your body can deal with whatever excess you have and I believe well That's important for being optimal in regards to metabolic function and health and that the RDAs for a lot of things are inaccurate and that most people would see a benefit from Higher retinoc acid consumption that it would be my answer to that And we had our answer. Well, listen, where's the evidence that high? High vitamin a intake and the form of fully formed vitamin a where's the evidence that it's beneficial. I Mean, if you just I mean if you just want to talk about like what it does in the body There's I mean retinoc acid. I know I know what it does in the body I'm just saying why is vitamin a intake that bypasses your own body's regulatory mechanisms Why is eating a super high amount of it beneficial? It I mean retinoc acid is still regulated It still has to go through various forms before your body utilizes it and the read the the whole premise of this was Retinoc acid has a lot of functions in the human body. It's very very important and Great, but yeah, why is it a good thing to eat a super high amount of it? Like it's bypassing your body's regulatory mechanisms again. No, not because yeah body regulates Well, it is Again, you like you can suffer from acute and chronic toxicity from it like if you don't get chronic if you don't get acute toxicity from vitamin a you can also get like chronic toxicity where it causes bone abnormalities and Chronic toxicity can occur at intakes only two times the daily RDA recommended intake So it's pretty low again Like I'm not seeing any evidence that eating a super high amount of vitamin a Is at all beneficial Like like again vegans don't have a higher prevalence of vitamin a deficiency I don't see any evidence that a super high intake of vitamin a where it's at the point of chronic toxicity would be at all beneficial and Again, like these foods you're talking about carrots and sweet potatoes are a lot more healthy and they protect against chronic disease Whereas liver like causes chronic disease As as I said twice so far these were things that I just wanted to bring up and speculate on the bioavailability of it and Saying that okay if you eat liver you're certainly getting enough of these vitamins So there's nothing to be concerned about this wasn't uh, this wasn't a debate of whether or not it's important to get these super high levels of vitamin a because There's hasn't really been studies on that and there's no way for me to prove outside of anecdotes that it's important to Okay, but it does not retinol does not bypass regulation It it needs to go to retinol and then it needs to be oxidized to retinoic acid. It does not buy Beta carotene It's you consume you consume the vitamin a from the food it goes into retinol then retinolic acid Then your body can utilize it the carotenoids. It's an extra step. It's not necessarily Retinol retinolic acid in the animal foods is not necessarily bypassing beta carotene requires an extra step Well, it is again if you're not suffering from acute toxicity you can suffer from Chronic toxicity and chronic toxicity occurs at only twice the RDA Recommended daily intake well since I only have the anecdotes of myself eating up like two pounds of the liver a day for a week Let's let's try to put that on the back you know what I'll link you this This paper the acute and chronic toxic effects of vitamin a I think you should actually read that Because chronic vitamin a toxicity is quite common. It happens at only twice the RDA intake you can think you're you're completely fine But this can cause problems like bone abnormalities later in life So you should actually read that because you're like I don't even know what you're trying to say here Are you just trying to say well if you eat liver you'll get enough vitamins? Like who cares no the the overall idea but between bringing up this vitamin thing is that Even in the context of people on the carnivore diet They would see a lot of benefits and energy and overall metabolic function from consuming a higher amount of vitamins in this bioavailable form Now the the thing is I guess something else to bring up would be okay let's say you get your sweet potatoes and your coconut oil and theoretically you can metabolize it but we're in nature would we see These carotenoids where we can metabolize them in our digestive system in a natural way Like how would you actually and I know this doesn't really apply because we have modern methods and modern science and supplements We can use to try to replicate this but where in like an a natural setting Would we see the possibility of getting carotenoids in present present with fat in from a vegetable source? That's available to pretty much all groups of people Okay, well Frank you don't need to consume like an overt source of fat immediately when you eat Like pro vitamin a carotenoids to convert carotenoids into vitamin A. Yeah, but where would you be getting a? non-animal source of fat as well as a large amount of carotenoids and energy you really don't need much fat to be able to absorb these fat soluble vitamins so You're telling me that someone is going to have access for a full for the problem Well grains are out of the really kind of out of the picture because what do you mean out of the picture to get? The the fat content of a grain would would that even be the right? It has to be saturated fat to my understanding to metabolize No, not necessarily and like there is like there's a small amount of fat in in some grains, too I know I know that for sure I'm not since that's not like algae, but it's but the the term I said Accessible to all groups of people and that includes climate at various parts of the year So obviously things like nuts and grains Like what does this even matter vegans don't have a higher prevalence of vitamin a deficiency because the point was that you can't obtain Vitamin a in nature At very in various locations and at various points of the year. It's just something to think about from Like you're referencing. Well, Frank like I mean who cares if we can't get it in nature It's clearly ideal for health well Like I say who cares about studies done on mommy's 4,000 years ago Disease prevalent like the prevalence of heart disease has like there's been a high prevalence of heart disease all throughout human history But now but now when I say that Since we can't get carrots noise in a natural state and humans would have never obtained them from carrots noise and fat in This way, then it just doesn't matter. Is that what you're saying? No, like again, all I like all I really care about is Reducing risk of chronic disease being healthier living longer. Why would I care if some like Primitive proto-human couldn't get vitamin a from a carrot because all the indigenous because every Indigenous group required vitamin. I mean vitamin a was present all these diets and in the case of like studies done on pigs If if an animal is vitamin a deficient in birth, I mean, there's obvious vision problems. They're born without I really have eyes vitamin a deficiency doesn't occur at a higher rate among vegans. No, but the point is that in nature You would be vitamin. You wouldn't have enough vitamin a to survive on a vegan diet I don't care and that's a dubious claim to begin with so So I mean for the most part I do agree with you I agree that vitamin D3 can be supplemented I think that in the context of an optimal vegan diet the vitamin a should not be a concern in regards to the vitamin K2, I mean that can be supplemented as well and What was well, wait a second.  I mean depending on the fermented food intake it varies between vegans Okay, so between fermented soy beans like natto, which actually has one of the highest amounts of vitamin K2 you can possibly get from any food or Like what's high in K2 like grass-fed butter or something or are you asking like what what's Animal foods is all what or what like I would just bring in between Natto, which is a source of K2 and between and something like grass-fed butter or beef liver What is a healthier source of K2? Well, well, there's you know, there's a different MK change like MK 7 MK 4 and natto is MK 7 Which needs to be converted to MK 4 so in in liver it It is I mean more available in that context what the body can still convert it The only reason I brought up the K2 thing was because it's just like the carotenoids It's present in nature only in animal foods Whereas now we have modern versions of foods that we make that we never really saw before to obtain the vitamin okay Vitamin K2 is produced in your gut by your gut bacteria, which is why it's it's virtually impossible to suffer vitamin K deficiency as an adult And yeah, it is present in fermented foods like natto. So why would you eat something like beef liver or butter? rather than getting K2 from natto if you're concerned about K2 because you're isolating a Food that is very specific to one part of the world that is Can be very inflammatory to some people and that some people are allergic to and cannot consume and Some people don't even like some people out. Well, some people are allergic to soy and some people are also allergic to animal products So what does that mean for like I'm talking about the general population? Because overall if if you're saying okay vitamin K2 is in literally like 20 animal products I can list versus only pretty much one source of that's a vegan source or it needs to be supplemented You know people would start to question about You know, okay, if all of these vegan things I need to supplement or You know very well no but if all these vegan things either need to be supplemented or neither either need to be obtained from a Very specific food source that cannot really be practical for all parts of the world in every person How can you it's hard to justify the nutrient availability and density of these people's diets? Well, I don't really care what people think is more convenient. I care about what's healthier Why is it healthier? Well, well if you even think this Why is it healthier to consume K2 from something like liver or grass-fed butter as opposed to natto or take a supplement? Because you get the different MK chains. I mean, okay, um Frank that really be the only reason okay, Frank The research on K2 is very mixed positive findings have only come out of one single country And the majority of research is showing that K2 intake is associated with a higher risk of heart disease And that's because generally people people are getting their K2 from things like butter, liver Terrible foods that increase risk of heart disease. I think I mean the main reason I brought up K2 was because it's important for the Calcium regulation in the body and I know that a lot of that and that's why I'm just saying this for the stream I'm saying this because I think that a lot of people especially on the standard American diet and the carnivore diet Consumed too much calcium without K2. So that's just something I wanted to bring up not necessarily in the context of vegan versus animal Well, Frank so K2 it's not picked up It's not filtered out of your bloodstream like K1 is and it bonds to a specific protein that carries calcium and that's why It's sometimes associated with lower risk of calcification in the arteries Which is like a huge risk factor of like mortality from heart disease But the thing is there have been mixed findings Positive findings have only come out of one country I think it's the Netherlands if I'm not mistaken But there are studies that have been conducted in Germany where K2 intake is associated with heart disease And the reason for that is likely because people are getting K2 from terrible sources like beef liver butter and these foods cause heart disease so the the take-home message here is You should have you should look at the overall health effect of these foods and overall diet and not just focus on like these specific nutrients So quality of food really matters here if you want to get K2 then you should get it from Nato or take a supplement Like you're much better off Than eating something like butter which has been proven to literally clog your arteries and you're basing You're basing everything you just said off of a study that you said was done in Germany Germany showing that higher K2 does what? It increases risk of heart disease But that's just I you're saying a higher K2 Increases risk of heart disease, but Nato is much higher in K2 than any of those animal foods They would have likely been eating. It's literally 10 times higher. It's multiple times. Yeah Yeah, so why wouldn't you just eat like K2 from soybeans when the K2 is higher for one thing and Fermented soybeans don't increase risk of heart disease whereas things like butter do but why would you say you should eat a food? That has a hundred times the amount of K2 and Then say that higher K2 is associated with heart disease that just doesn't know and then try to relate it But you can't say that and then relate it. You're misunderstanding No, let me clarify Let me clarify their diet and the foods they were eating, right?  So when you do a population study on K2 intake I'm really doing. I'm sorry. Do you see that? Can you let me know that study? Thank you. Let me see if I can google it well, I can link you a big article on vitamin K and the research links are in that article, but positive findings have only been coming out of one country there might be like a multiple like confounding factors and reasons for that but Research in other countries has shown K2 intake is associated with an increased risk of heart disease And that's likely because they're eating more foods that cause heart disease like butter Like liver garbage like that. So K2 intake like among the general population With like these common foods like butter cheese liver. It is associated with with heart disease in research coming out of every other country But like the mechanistic data suggests that K2 is protective against heart disease So again the take-home message here is that you should get K2 from good quality plant sources I'm sorry. What was the what was the You said, do you know what country the study the K2 was in and where they said it was beneficial It was the Netherlands Okay, so I'm looking at a study right now that says a problem with K2 can be interactions with various medications Like it's because vitamin K2 is essentially an anticoagulant So we would assume that if a country has is more has higher, you know Rates of taking certain medications that if they have a that vitamin K2 intake would be associated Inversely, so I think that's a pretty good explanation for why we might see problems with vitamin K2 So wait, how does it interact with a medication where it would increase risk of like death from a heart attack? Well, that's the snow. No, but but I think it sounds vitamin K2 versus anti-coagulant and But there are medications that Kind of work against I mean, I can't listen man. I'm not a biochemist. I can't explain that specifically That makes sense. But again Like this just shows more than anything that you shouldn't really you should be careful with supplementing K2 Or even in taking K2 from any source So this isn't really a good argument for eating animal products No, but that could be an explanation of why right most of the why there was an association with the K2 and the increased Mortality, right, but given how given how the data is currently mixed and these foods like butter cheese liver They're high in saturated fat cholesterol and heme iron. They've been proven to cut increased risk of heart disease Why would you eat those sources of K2 when you can get something like natto? Which has way more K2 and it's not associated with But it but but then we have to just move on from K2 because you're saying other things are causing the problem What do you mean if you're saying saturated fat cholesterol and all the other and heme iron and all the negative things in the animal foods Are the reason then we should just move on and discuss those individually I suppose if I'd love to but I guess I could just mention I mean there are plenty of other vitamins that are and Those the other vitamins outside of a in the form of retinolic acid D3 can be supplemented or obtained from animal foods and K2 can be obtained from as you said the not so and then animal foods The all the other vitamins are present in both Plants and animal foods the so the problem here Frank is you can look at like Mechanistic data and shit all you want What ultimately matters is health outcomes in a population? If you're going to claim that vitamin like pro vitamin a carotenoids aren't Like they're not changed into fully formed vitamin a Converted in your body very efficiently like okay. Well, what are the health outcomes of that? Like you haven't shown anything that like you haven't shown any evidence that vegans have higher rates of deficiencies in these sorts of things if it's a direct result of their diet and If it's actually caused a significant overall impact to their health like do vegans have a higher risk of a Particular disease because they're not getting enough of a certain vitamin. No, I mean the only thing I have to say in regards to The vitamin a benefits would be anecdotes that I personally have and you don't want to hear those No, like I like the very very bare minimum. I don't want to see case reports But you know preferably things like randomized trials Okay, so did you want to discuss saturated fat and cholesterol in its relation? Relationship with heart disease because I have seen a few videos on your channel where you were claiming saturated fat and cholesterol Do not cause heart disease. I mean we could I mean the problem I have is there hasn't you know We're we're debating back and forth on all these different things But when we actually go to look at the physical studies, you know, they're done on people and standard American diets and No, no What's well you actually believe that saturated fat and cholesterol do not cause heart disease, correct? I mean Like like do you mean if if I eat saturated fat and cholesterol in in human amounts for the next 80 years? Do I think I'm gonna drop that of a heart attack? Is that the question kind of well? No, I'm saying do you believe that saturated fat and cholesterol have nothing to do with heart disease risk?   Okay, um saturated fats do Activate certain pro-inflammatory genes They do alter the gut bacteria to be pro-inflammatory and you can even see an immune response from saturated fat so During consumption of saturated fat. You see greater monocyte adhesion, which is the immune cells in your body But when you consume omega-3s, you don't see that immune response so saturated fats definitely are pro-inflammatory and They also break down into non-asterified fatty acids, which are toxic to insulin producing beta cells in your in your pancreas Which causes diabetes You're taking you're taking one part one aspect of a food out of the context of all the other beneficial things that like monounsaturated Monounsaturated fat, polyunsaturated fat, various vitamins. We're not talking about mono and polyunsaturated fats We're talking about saturated fat. Yeah, but my point is that you can't talk about saturated fat without mentioning those other things It just doesn't make any sense Well, no, you can and we can talk about those other things and how they modulate heart disease risk But saturated fats are in fact pro-inflammatory They activate immune responses like they increase monocyte adhesion and They produce toxic breakdown products which kill insulin producing beta cells in your in your pancreas Which especially among genetically predisposed individuals it'll result in type 2 diabetes But this is like what they did with the what was it the hydrocarbons and the rats where they took Like 10,000 times the amount they isolated a substance that occurs in a natural food No, no, no, I'm talking about humans Yeah, but if you're researching humans if you're consuming what I wanted to get out was if you're consuming saturated fat From healthy food sources that I would consider healthy like like wild wild game Wild caught fish things like that. It's present with a lot of other vitamins beneficial fats that That's okay.    I mean, this isn't really something I honestly Because the for me the whole the whole saturated fat cholesterol blah blah blah all that arguing stuff has been done a hundred times Okay, well Frank Do you like I just want to know do you actually believe that saturated fat and cholesterol do not contribute to heart disease risk? If you're talking about heart disease risk in the context of studies, I already answered your question There are plenty of studies at show. They're planning studies That's no question. It's a yes or no question. Do you believe saturated fat and cholesterol increases risk of heart disease? I can say yes in the context of studies people that have higher saturated fat and cholesterol intake in Certain studies have been shown to have higher risk of heart disease But as I said all of these things that I'm talking about saturated fat in the context of what food you're eating Other factors in the person's diet what other foods they're eating you can't just isolate. I Could probably isolate Some obscure consumption what what what could I say? Maybe I could say I don't know. What's a good example Maybe I find a group of people that really like eating popcorn and I start showing that Okay, popcorn increases risk people that consume popcorn have a higher risk for Heart disease, but you have to consider other lifestyle factors other things they're eating other things They're doing about their life that are associated with people that tend to consume High amounts of saturated fat especially in the context that you know the majority of people are like if you walked up the song on the street They would probably agree that fat is not they would probably think that fat is not good for you You have to take those other things at the consideration as opposed to just isolating a specific thing okay, Frank you're talking about confounding factors and That is a reasonable concern when you're doing epidemiological research But there's enough mechanistic data proving that saturated fat does increase risk of heart disease due to increasing serum cholesterol levels and you yourself you picked out the Maasai of Africa as People following an ideal sort of diet. They have extraordinarily high Prevalence of heart disease you've even admitted this yourself and linked me research showing that so Like I don't even know what you're really trying to argue here like does saturated fat increase heart disease risk or not You didn't really answer my question The saturated fat increase heart disease risk I Mean in the context of the studies you're talking about that's a that's not as I said I'm not there's there's enough mechanistic data Saturated fat does in fact raise serum cholesterol and serum cholesterol is the main risk factor for heart disease It do you believe okay? So I mean I mean the problem is there are studies that show Saturated fat there's as I said, there's studies on both sides of the table. There's studies that show saturated fat has no link between Very LDL and there's studies that show it does their studies that show Dietary cholesterol increases. There's studies that there's studies on both sides of the coin So I don't really want to beat this to death because this would be another this is important Because you don't seem to be able to understand What research is credible or not? So the study showing that there's no link between saturated fat and cholesterol intake and heart disease risk They're typically Epidemiological studies where they don't take baseline cholesterol into account. So there's two issues Like if you have a baseline cholesterol intake of zero The any added dietary cholesterol will have a very significant impact on your serum cholesterol score So say if you're vegan and you decide to eat an egg every day your cholesterol will increase by roughly 10 to 15 percent but if you're eating like a standard American diet where you're consuming roughly 400 500 milligrams of cholesterol per day if you add an egg to your diet There will be little to no change in your cholesterol score The whole reason I'm not done listen so your body has a regulatory mechanism with cholesterol and a lot of the research showing that oh Well higher intakes of cholesterol don't associate with higher incidence of disease It's just because they're not taking baseline cholesterol intake into account if you compare a cohort of vegans to meat eaters The vegans like obviously will have lower rates of heart disease because they have lower intakes of saturated fat They eat no cholesterol and thus their serum cholesterol score is much lower And that's why in the Adventist cohort cohorts vegans had what a 55% reduced risk of ischemic heart disease So you're just referencing bad data here I Don't think I reference anything.  It's not they don't okay, Frank The whole premise more research on heart disease than Animal experiments conducted a hundred years ago on rabbits. You understand that right? But my point is that the whole premise of everything you're talking about right now is based on conventional wisdom everything No, it's based on metabolic work experiments and that we're trying to prove that saturated fat and cholesterol This is not a discussion. I'm having in a short span of time without looking at data and research I'm not doing this without like I have some stuff in front of me I have some things in front of you, but I'm not this has been beaten to death and Whether you're a vegan or carnivore, you're gonna look at the research that that fits your Whatever you want to believe in and you're gonna try to discredit the other person's research and say what they're doing is wrong I don't think the fact that fact cholesterol thing needs to be beaten to death anymore Well Frank that's complete nonsense look I've seen a few of your videos and I I saw a video you made specifically about saturated fat cholesterol and heart disease You referenced articles made by Chris Cressor I I don't know why you'd reference articles made by just a random person who just has a degree in acupuncture in Chinese medicine The research you're looking at is flawed by design They're pretty much all perspective studies where they didn't take baseline cholesterol intake into account there's enough individual variation in Baseline cholesterol itself So if two people were eating the exact same diet that have different cholesterol scores And if you don't take baseline cholesterol into account Then you're going to end up with a data set that doesn't show any association between something like saturated fat and heart disease because saturated fat intake doesn't usually correlate with serum cholesterol just because of the wide difference of Individual variation in serum cholesterol So that's so again if you look at things like randomized trials dietary change experiments metabolic ward experiments reducing saturated fat and cholesterol is associated with lower lower serum cholesterol and Typically you see a reduction in heart disease risk and Again, that's why I as I said I don't want to beat this to death There are studies that show that having high cholesterol is associated with lower mortality and there are studies showing that No, there isn't no there isn't no no there aren't what they show is reverse causation If you take it, it's especially prevalent with elderly populations, but when elderly people get sick So let's say they get cancer They get the flu They're just general health is declining Typically that lowers their cholesterol either from a direct result of the disease medications They're taking or from confounding factors like you're not feeling well.  It's the disease causing low cholesterol So again, this is just reverse causation. I should I should ask this sooner you're the point What is the just the overall premise like that saturated fat in the diet increases? Cholesterol is and then so saturate both saturated fat and cholesterol in the diet increases serum cholesterol and Serum cholesterol is the principal risk factor in heart disease. Okay, but if we say we can't really Say that when you know lipid panel is gets much more complex than that and honestly above my We know that I yell to LDL LDL particle count C reactive protein I've heard this argument before you've probably listened to Peter Atea a little too much He used to be a doctor what Peter Atea does is he cherry picks research on overweight people with diabetes and what they found is with overweight people with diabetes different biomarkers are a little more accurate for determining heart disease risk like LDL P C reactive protein a po b In the general population LDL C is the is the most significant risk factor for heart disease with Diabetics You know the biomarkers are a bit different because it creates a different lipid profile But among the general population LDL C is the most important risk factor for heart disease That's what I'm saying LDL. That's why you can't just say cholesterol as a blanket term That's doesn't make sense Frank among the general population LDL C is the most important risk factor for heart disease now among overweight diabetics it changes a bit, but still That doesn't change the fact that LDL C is harmful This is as I said has been argued back and forth There's probably a hundred people you can have on here that can discuss cholesterol and argue cholesterol and I don't know How many times I do But you're just you're disagreeing with anything that goes just you will disagree with anything And what I just said you you agreed with is that there's other factors outside of just total cholesterol that affect Your your cardiovascular risk, that's not it's it's well complicated what you're saying well no no no Frank I'm not like trying to reduce this down to be as simple as possible The biggest risk factor among the general population is LDL C that doesn't mean things like LDL P Apo B C reactive protein don't play a role, but LDL C is the most significant And among diabetics things change a bit other biomarkers are a little more relevant But that doesn't mean LDL C doesn't still play a risk fact like a risk factor here well, if you want to discuss this when Let's just look at cholesterol in general and the function that actually causes heart disease is primarily because of inflammation and oxidized fats Correct. Okay. Well dietary cholesterol increases the susceptibility of serum cholesterol to oxidation and a lot of the foods You're eating like foods that are high in saturated fat high in heme iron like red meat.  Oh, but wait when you're not consuming oxidized fats or inflammatory foods in general That has that does not matter. Okay. So how is heme iron not inflammatory? Heme iron is inflammatory in the context that most people consume it in because it's absent of Other vitamins and things that are required to metabolize it. Let me just go look at the I did a video on this like two weeks ago Frank how does heme iron become non non-inflammatory and not a pro-oxidant It doesn't but the the rate you consume it at and the foods you consume it with Effect its digestibility how it's absorbed in the body You need multiple vitamins and other minerals to absorb iron in the body Well, no not for heme iron. It bypasses your regulatory mechanisms normal high iron from plant foods That is true, but heme iron just bypasses your regulatory mechanisms And again heme iron is a pro oxidant So you're talking about like oxidized LDL particles as being harmful Because they're pro-inflammatory. Well, you're eating foods that increase the susceptibility of LDL to oxidation and you're eating pro oxidants That actually oxidize you see the problem is with what you did with the saturated fat You're isolating a food outside of the context that it would normally be consumed it Okay, Frank. Tell me tell me well like how does eating something that's grass-fed or Free range or whatever? How does that change the fact that heme iron is a pro oxidant? Let me let me just look at my studies that I have from my video list because this was not an Easy explanation after doing it a few hours of research let alone off the top of my head So Frank heme iron itself is very closely linked with heart disease diabetes and certain forms of cancer There's a meta-analysis titled is heme iron intake associated with risk of coronary heart disease a meta-analysis of prospective studies What they found was per milligram intake of heme iron per day It was associated with almost a 30% increase in heart disease risk I think they they ended up with one milligram per day was associated with the 27% increase risk for heart disease So one milligram how many milligrams of heme iron are you intaking per day? One second. I'm as I said earlier. I'm not comfortable discussing these things or with you having Because I have studies that I looked up about all of these things from heme iron to cholesterol to whatever it is, but I'm not making statements on on heme iron or or saturated fat or any of these things without having the data Okay, well you you knew you were going to get into a debate today So why wouldn't you have prepared some research surrounding the relevant topics? I did but you don't seem to take my answers of you isolating these things outside of the context of how they should be consumed as Okay, a reasonable discussion. Well Frank How does like how does heme iron not become a pro oxidant when the animal eats grass? Because it's not about heme iron itself It's about the context of the person's diet and if they have the required vitamins and minerals to metabolize iron properly So it does not stay in the digestive tract Frank.  So why would you consume it at all? But what is so important about this one don't vegans usually have higher blood levels of No iron in general No, I don't believe so. Uh, they they don't have a higher prevalence of iron deficiency Um and like Frank, what's the benefit of consuming heme iron when it's a pro oxidant? And it's linked with heart disease diabetes in certain forms of cancer Because you don't seem to understand that my point is you need to consume these foods in the context of overall nutrient density And if you isolate any compounds in a food, you can make an argument for why it would be bad for your health No, not really uh like again Frank Like nothing you're saying here is at all consistent or makes sense like First you are claiming that like hunter gatherer populations They don't have chronic disease and then you link me the messiah who you claim have an ideal diet Extraordinarily high rates of heart disease. It's just that they're the rates of mortality from heart disease Are low compared to uh standard americans Um So like again, why would you consume heme iron? I I just don't understand like you can consume lentils You can eat high vitamin c fruits and vegetables that aid with iron absorption And then you'll get enough iron. You don't get any of the pro oxidant effects and things like lentils beans peas They're associated with longer life expectancy So why would you eat like a carnivore diet or eat like the messiah when You know, there's a better way of doing things If you want an answer on this heme iron thing specifically give me two minutes or maybe a little more Okay, sure So what but the base is that uh heme iron is oxidizing whereas non heme iron isn't Uh, is that the main concern about or is it is it also about the concern about just the heat the heme iron association with Various diseases heme iron is a pro oxidant and it's associated with increased risk of heart disease diabetes in certain forms of cancer Whereas non heme isn't Thank you What is your um What is your Which part of the Are you just talking about like the interaction of heme iron in the large intestine with other well, no, I wasn't even talking about Like Talking about why it's inflammatory, right? Yeah, it's a pro oxidant But that that oxidation occurs in and that inflammation occurs in the large intestine Okay And that's because of its interaction and this is what this is the study I did on my video a couple weeks ago it's because of its interaction with N nitroso compounds and like Cured meats and stuff. It's not necessarily to do with heme iron in itself Heme iron produces the endogenous production of N nitroso compounds when interacting with Let me let me look at the study to read the exact um exact context Well frank, this isn't exactly relevant to what i'm saying Heme iron it is because you're just isolating a food and saying it causes oxidation when in the real the reason It's causing oxidation is because it's an absence of other vitamins and minerals and because it's interacting with specific negative things That are natural If you look up iron metabolism Well, what vitamins and minerals like what food that contains heme iron? Is not going to have these pro oxidant effects What do you mean like like what food like does the food have? What's the question like what vitamins you need to absorb iron or what? No, like I'm asking like you're claiming that oh well The only reason they find an association between heme iron intake and risk of heart disease is because They're not consuming it with some other vitamins or minerals or it's not the right type of grass fed whatever Um, what food that contains heme iron, uh, doesn't have these pro oxidant effects Oh, I mean like cured meat sausages and just in general the way we're raising our animals now Especially like chicken and pork and stuff It just has incredibly high levels of well not necessarily incredibly high But it has normal levels of heme iron, but it doesn't have any of the other vitamins or minerals or anything present necessarily to um metabolize the iron Okay, well, no this this occurs with fresh meat but your but fresh meat does not have If all you consume is fresh meat, it doesn't have vitamin a it doesn't have large amounts of the other minerals Like copper and zinc and things that you need in balance with iron To at least enough amounts of these other vitamins to you know The animal has to be consumed in the context of like nose to tail eating In order to you know Like I think something like blood sausage or just pretty much What like what you said earlier the skeletal muscle is consuming large amounts of skeletal muscle To my understanding especially in the context of a standard american diet We just core cause in natural amounts of heme iron to be in the blood as opposed to Uh Having the adequate other things that would normally be consumed with that much heme iron Okay, frank. It sounds like you're doing this thing where you move the goalposts further and further back I have this sort of issue all the time with people who promote keto or carnivore or whatever When I link data showing, okay. Well intake of this nutrient is associated with increased disease Well, they say oh, well, it's not grass-fed free range organic whatever meat there that you're you're supposed to be consuming Well, frank the fact is Uh, there's a mechanistic data proving that heme iron is a pro-oxidant It produce it causes the production of nitroso compounds endogenously within the body and according to epidemiological research It's very strongly linked with heart disease diabetes cancer Like you can make these claims all you want. Well, heme iron isn't as bad when you're eating it with organs and the animals Free range grass fed and it's wild or something. Well, that literally doesn't matter Heme iron isn't good for you period You're just adding in a list of confounding factors That may modulate its risk, but heme iron is still bad for you. Like why would you consume any amount of heme iron? Uh, I don't think I answered anything yet. I'm still trying to look through my studies for the specific reference I have So The point that as I and you're talking about n nitrosol compounds But those n nitrosol compounds that you're referring to have nothing to do With heme iron they have to do with the oxidation of heme iron What my point was earlier was that these people are consuming these cured and processed meats that have nitrates And they're using a direct fire drying process which forms those compounds and then heme iron interacts with these Compounds that are result of the nitrates in the food that cause high levels of inflammation And that's that's the main reason the main reason that there's a very high Colorectal cancer risk with a heme iron and nitrate cured foods Okay, um, I I'm still not hearing a reason why heme iron in particular is totally safety I mean you don't have you don't you don't have a don't the reason that heme iron would be bad for you is Because of its interaction with those cured meats and those compounds and those cured meats That's the reason it could be bad for you There's no I'd imagine it's worse because of those factors you mentioned, but heme iron itself is a pro oxidant So like again, you're just adding on confounding factors like okay. Yeah, if it's cured if it's like treated at high heat It makes it worse But I I'm not hearing an argument for why what is what is what are you saying like Heme iron is a pro oxidant, but you're just saying that it's associated with In inflammation because of other things it is not specifically an oxidant Notice again like even with the supplement form It's associated with increased risk of of heart disease And for the same reason Because you're consuming it outside of the context of the amount you're supposed to consume it in and You're having the only interaction you're referencing the interaction you're referencing with oxidizing iron is because of those Those problems with the nitrates and the curing process of foods. It has nothing to do with iron in itself Okay, so you're saying heme iron is not a pro oxidant when you're eating fresh forms of meat But you know, I'm saying that you the re I'm saying that heme iron Is detrimental in the context of nitrosyl compounds and cured meats And so right so you're saying it doesn't act as a pro oxidant when it's consumed in fresh meats but What is the what is the What is it doing in the human body that's you would consider damaging in the context of just iron itself It's not using lbl particles And oxidized lbl particles are more atherogenic That's why there's a strong association with heart disease iron doesn't cause That's it has nothing to do with the oxidation of lbl particles. It has nothing to do with it What are you talking about? Dude, you could literally Oxidation of lbl They're results of not having normal metabolism diseases toxins any things like that if You're saying that iron when consumed in excess specifically causes No, um Not in excess uh per milligram intake of heme iron. It's associated with About a 27 increased risk of heart disease. So that's not an excess. That just means replacing Like normal plant sources of iron with heme iron You're just you're changing this from initially you were saying Heme iron causes Whatever oxidant you're different your definition of oxidation. It's not So it causes the oxidation of lbl particles in your serum in your blood And oxidized lbl iron iron has nothing to do with that iron has nothing to do with that. That's just okay So it's like free radicals and things like that that has nothing to do with iron Um I I don't even understand what you're arguing at this point My understanding of heme iron going into this Was that you were going to reference the n nitrosol compounds and go into that and that's because that is the only thing to my knowledge That heme iron is associated negatively with anything else. You're saying I have literally never heard of or have never done any research on I don't know why you're dwelling on this point Because there's nothing that you can I don't know if you're referencing that you could show me that iron does these things But I I've been looking I've been looking up everything you've been saying for the past 10 minutes And I I really got nothing to be honest outside of the initial heme iron versus nitrosol compounds though Okay, well the research I just linked you the meta analysis is heme iron intake associated with risk of coronary heart disease and meta analysis of prospective studies Um heme iron may contribute to the development of atherosclerosis by catalyzing the production of hydroxyl free radicals and promoting low density lipoprotein oxidation So uh again heme iron itself Is a pro-oxidant And it oxidizes LDL in the serum and that's why it increases heart disease risk Um, it's also associated with increased risk of diabetes and cancer What did you just read the um Are you reading the results? I think that was the last study I linked and it was just the first part of the abstract abstract So uh like frank uh according to the data I've seen Hold on. Hold on. Can I just reread this please uh Heme iron can contribute to the development of atherosclerosis by catalyzing production of hydroxyl free radicals and promoting low density lipoprotein oxidation. So Catalyzing production of hydroxyl free radicals Is what you're saying it's doing not you're saying it's by doing that it's promoting oxidation, right? Sorry you're saying what you're saying is Not that heme iron You're saying heme iron promotes oxidation because it Catalyzes production of hydroxyl free radicals. That's what this study says.  Do you because that would help? Uh, no, it's the full text isn't available Okay, well frank anyways, um, well either way the problem with this study is the Relative risk factor is 1.27. So you might as well just throw this study out the window, man I like this doesn't matter increased risk one point if a study if a study has any If a study is like it needs to be at least over two like most people would just throw this doesn't yes, it does This is like I don't think you understand what a hazard ratio is This is insignificant in the context. This is like any anyone understands relative risk would just dismiss this study I'm not so I wish you'd like this earlier because I wouldn't have a 30 percent increased risk per Milligram of heme iron intake is insignificant This is yeah, it isn't significant in the context. Okay, so if we so if I consumed three milligrams of heme iron that would increase my risk by Like a hazard ratio of 2.0. So like a hundred percent essentially Double the risk I just wish you know Even if I did want to entertain the idea that this dog shit study was admissible With this risk factor, I just don't have the full text and I'm trying to find it Okay, um frank anyways, uh, according to the research I've seen Uh, heme iron is a pro-oxidant And it is associated with increased risk of no, but you're just see the thing is you're you're just And you're not showing metabolic process. You're not showing. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's fine But I'd like to see some conflicting information from you because so far all you've said is like grass fed though, essentially No, I haven't said anything actually. I all I said was that heme iron in the context of nitroso compounds is Probably the highest known negative thing associated with heme iron I can agree that process meat is worse than you know, fresh meat But I'd like to see actual data suggesting that heme iron from fresh meat isn't harmful and You can link me laboratory data mechanistic data Population data. I don't care. I just like to see conflicting information here so What I'm thinking right now is the information you're presenting in regards to the dangers of heme iron You haven't not proven to me that heme iron is damaging outside of the end nitroso You can't outside of the interactions with the nitrates.  And if you want to dwell on that, I will try to find the full Okay, uh, it's not just a study. It's a meta analysis The uh, so it's not exactly just risk ratio the risk ratio for this is too low It's way too low. So per milligram. So if I if the study did Per three milligrams of heme iron intake it increased the risk of a heart disease by 100 that would I'm not getting this. It's like you don't understand that this is per milligram of heme iron So if you consumed three milligrams of heme iron according to the study, you double your risk of heart disease And this is a meta analysis, by the way, it's not just a single study You see every study you've linked me today. Unfortunately Does not have any text and there's no base Unfortunately, the full text isn't available There's no basis because my problem is there's no basis for this besides this study and you can't physically explain to me It's not just a study. It's a meta analysis Both of us are unable to explain what heme iron physically does in the body outside of my explanation for its interaction with N nitroso compounds Okay, well frank despite that the epidemiological research Clearly shows heme iron intake increases risk of heart disease Now you can say the only reason for that is because of uh consumption of process meats But I'd like to see data on that does like if we're only looking at fresh meat consumption Is there no association? Uh, I even like to see some laboratory data Uh showing okay. Well, it doesn't produce like these N nitroso compounds hydroxyl free radicals Uh, and it's not a risk like it doesn't uh cause the oxidation of LDL particles You're not showing that but the research clearly shows There is an association between heme iron intake and heart disease risk and you're not talking specifically about um Like you're not talking about people that like are not consuming meat and they have low iron levels. Is that relevant? Like deficiencies of iron this didn't have anything to do with deficiencies. Uh, it just had to do with uh percentage of consumption of heme iron There's also two other systematic reviews and meta-analyses I have on hand Iron and cancer risk a systematic review and meta-analysis of the epidemiological evidence Um, and again in the abstract, uh, it says Iron has been suggested as a risk factor for different types of cancers mainly to to its pro-oxidant activity Which can lead to oxidative DNA damage. Uh, so Heme iron is well known as a pro-oxidant Now i'm not an expert because this is the problem. You can't and now i'm not like look, I admit I'm not an expert on why we can't talk. This is like a lot of these points You're bringing up and we're talking about we we are simply not educated enough to speculate on this That is simply like well, we are uh, we can speculate but there's like you can't say these things You're saying like definitely as you are look, that doesn't make any sense Frank the results are like according to these meta-analyses these large compilations of research Heme iron is a pro-oxidant and because of its pro-oxidant activity It's associated I told you what my opinion on this study is and the relative risk is too low in the context of what people would consider Is too low? Yes, it is for any for any study Yes, if it's not a but like if you're talking like 1.9 2.5 then maybe we could look into it, but this is not Anywhere close frank that's per milligram of heme iron intake So according to this meta-analysis if you consume three milligrams of heme iron you'd have about a double increased risk of heart disease So like why is that hard for you to understand per milligram? That doesn't mean if you consume any heme iron at all like you have a 27 increased risk No, it's per milligram And again, there are other systematic reviews and meta-analyses linking the pro-oxidant effects of heme iron to cancer and also diabetes Um, I'll link you another meta-analysis and review dietary iron intake body iron stores and the risk of type 2 diabetes This is not um analysis So all this says is look the vast majority of research frank shows That heme iron intake is damaging to human health Dude this fucking i'm not talking on this point in my this study you linked me is dog. Shit furthermore We conducted meta-analysis for colorecter relative. Is this even this is so Are you linking me different ones now? Am I looking at it? I just linked to you the one I mentioned Well, you got three different ones. You got Are those those are You did three different studies, right? That's it. Yeah, uh one on heart like a meta-analysis on heart disease meta-analysis on diabetes meta-analysis on cancer the last one is the diabetes one Um, and it looks like the diabetes one has the full text available The the heme iron intake with risk of coronary heart disease meta-analysis that you've been talking about for the past 20 minutes Is the two so sorry just a second the two meta-analysis I linked on uh cancer and diabetes the full texts are available So if you want to read later After the debate you can uh Just this first study you linked with the relative risk is from 1.04 to 1.67 So some found no association Okay, and the dose response the relative risk of chd for an increase of heme iron intake of one milligram a day Was 1.27 That's not saying that that does not mean that One milligram per it's not per one milligram It means that these people increase their heme iron intake of one milligram per day and this was their risk This does not mean if you make it to two it's going to be you know It's not gonna it's not multiplicative if that doesn't what you're saying is disingenuous and you're interpreting the data in your favor Oh, I think I understand what you're saying even if you're an intake of one million, uh, sorry, uh The dose response risk ratio for coronary heart disease for an increase in heme iron intake of one milligram per day I I think I understand what you're saying. Uh, I misinterpreted it a bit, um But anyway, uh, if you add one milligram to that's not no, but that's not what the study says If you add one milligram So the relative risk if you add one milligram of heme iron per day to your daily diet You increase your risk of heart disease by nearly 30 percent or one Zero because there were some people in that study that no not zero It says no the lowest was 1.1 1.04 was the lowest which is insignificant That is not admissible data. Well, no dose response risk ratio heme iron intake of one milligram per day was 1.27 And uh, it went from 1.1 to 1.47 Okay, I'm going to be a little more serious.  I'm going to look at the second one iron and cancer risk a systematic review and meta analysis of the epidemiological evidence You said this one has the full text, but the third one only is the one I saw with the full text Uh, they both have a full text. Uh, they have a full text link on the top right hand corner Um, anyway, uh, the vast majority of data shows that heme iron intake is associated with an increased risk of So this this the other study iron and cancer risk a systematic review of meta analysis of the epidemiological evidence Blah blah blah died to your iron furthermore. We conducted meta analysis for colorectal cancer risk Uh confidence interval 1.00 to 1.17 colon 1.12 1.03 to 1.22 breast 1.03 And then 0.97 to 1.09 they actually found it found an inverse risk with breast cancer in some cases And lung cancer they found uh, relative risk was 1.12 and the range was 0.98 to 1.29 So they found inverse risks on the majority of these studies, which means it is really doing shit Frank do you understand what relative risk is averages You understand what averages has nothing to do with with what they and if frank you have on an individual level Yeah, you can see variations where you find an inverse relationship But on like the entire scale of the study They found more often than not it increased risk Any of these studies you're linking me if you do a study and you find one person that contradicts the whole study It's that's it. It's inadmissible evidence. This is very this relative risk is dog. Shit, and I'm not Out to we're moving on to the next study Frank. That's not a very iron intake. It is exactly how it works, and if you ask any So Frank if you find one person who smoked their entire life, they never got cancer That means smoking doesn't cause cancer. No, but for something like smoking the relative risk is Exponentially higher. Let's look at the relative risk for smoking.  Okay. So then so then rare outliers in a dataset Don't impact the the credibility. These are not rare outliers the large majority of These this data is on is either four or there's this data If for anyone with half of a brain that looks at this data would say this is inadmissible because they didn't really show anything Well, no, they actually did find I'm gonna move on to the third study. I'm not entertaining. I'm not entertaining these two other studies I'm gonna move on to the third one and we'll take a look diet air iron intake body iron stores and the risk of type 2 Diabetes a systematic review and meta analysis results Excess iron has been showed to induce diabetes and animal models. However, the results from human epidemiological studies linking body iron stores And iron intake to the risk of type 2 diabetes are conflicting in this study. We aim to systematically evaluate the available evidence So they're just trying to show Some association with type 2 diabetes, even though the past research has not shown anything Well, no the past research on diabetes didn't show anything because they didn't actually take into account heme iron just total I'm just reading. I'm just reading what this isn't that what it says I didn't read the maybe it said that next Uh, I'm not I'm not looking at the full text. I'm just looking at the abstract right now I'm gonna send us a five so this gives us 1.9 inches will have a little humor intake Is this the same is this the same one that you like is this the same one that you like me Is this uh, is this one of the studies that meta analysis analyzed earlier? Is this No, uh, this is a systematic review and meta analysis for risk of type 2 diabetes And uh, uh dietary iron intake and body iron stores Um, look the pooled risk ratios for type 2 diabetes mildest and individuals with the highest versus the lowest intake Of ferritin levels was 1.7 Um, that's pretty damn significant I didn't read this yet Dietary total iron non heme iron or supplemental iron intakes were not significantly associated with type 2 But why are you linking me in the study, man? What? At the conclusion heme iron Iron heme iron intake spottering iron stores were significantly associated with greater risk of type 2 diabetes Yeah, but dietary total iron non heme iron or supplemental iron had nothing to do with it This study says that the their tissue levels of iron Had a higher risk, but that had nothing to do with their dietary iron. This study is irrelevant Well, no, it it also looked at dietary iron intake iron intake, but it said that dietary iron Higher total iron intake and increased body iron stores were significantly associated with a greater risk of type 2 diabetes Let me let me wipe my eyes. Maybe I'm reading this wrong Dietary total iron non heme iron or supplemental iron intakes were not significantly associated with type 2 that maybe my uh Yeah, exactly.     Let me let me say this What you said when I was reading the background was that it said like However, the results from human epidemiological studies linking body iron stores and iron intake are conflicting That and and then you said those previous studies that they did did not account Whatever, but they did in this study and now you're saying they did and they found an association between heme iron intake Body iron stores and type 2 diabetes. No, they just mentioned no listen frank They mentioned in the conclusion that total dietary iron is not associated with risk of type 2 diabetes because Your iron like most people's iron Primarily comes from plant-based sources And they found that that non heme iron wasn't associated with type 2 diabetes So lentils or sorry iron from lentils isn't associated with type 2 diabetes because it's non heme And supplemental iron Honestly man, anyone that interprets this data you're picking the wrong arguments to make I could have myself I could have made a better argument for frank. You're cherry picking one sentence out of No, but you're but if Your point is that consume your point earlier that you wanted me to discuss was that consuming dietary Or any heme iron in general is causes diabetes and now you're saying it's tissue levels that are a problem That doesn't make any sense. I'm gonna If if I was in if I was in your position right now arguing against me For heme iron I could have fucking crushed me because I know that heme iron can be shown in a very negative light in other aspects What you're trying to show me right now is the last fucking thing you should be trying to show me because these studies The relative risk is inverse in some cases and it doesn't and even the conclusions of these studies doesn't make sense I I think for your credibility You should move away from heme iron in regards to diabetes and oxidation and all of these things that are very apparent Even with the studies you're linking me that there's nothing to do with them Let's move on to something else Frank, okay I just want to be clear in this meta-announced society linked for everybody who's interested Dietary iron intake body iron stores in the risk of type 2 diabetes systematic meta-analysis and review The authors found that the intake of heme iron and increased body iron stores were significantly associated with greater risk of type 2 diabetes That's not however However, what they found was total iron wasn't associated with risk of type 2 diabetes because that would include non heme iron Non heme iron wasn't associated with type 2 diabetes risk and supplemental iron was not associated with type 2 diabetes risk So uh, yeah, again like heme iron intake is associated with risk of type 2 diabetes and it's also associated with All that's all that study says is the higher tissue levels of iron It has nothing to do the study specifically states that you linked that dietary iron has nothing to do with type 2 diabetes That's exactly what the study says It literally says we found no associations with any sort of dietary iron intake whether supplements heme iron or non heme iron That's exactly what the study says Nothing to do a meta-analysis of five studies gave a pooled risk ratio for type 2 diabetes Melodists of 1.33 In individuals with the highest level are you talking about the third study right now? The the diabetes meta-analysis It clearly says the pooled risk ratio for type 2 diabetes with among the people with the highest intake of heme iron was 1.33 Which one are you reading right now dietary iron intake body iron source and risk of type 2 diabetes? This is a meta-analysis.  This means that dietary iron intake has nothing to do with it Frank there's a difference between total iron intake and heme iron intake Most people get their their iron like the majority of it from plant sources So when you do total iron 90 percent of that is probably plant iron and the rest is is heme iron So it's not surprising they wouldn't find a big risk with total iron intake They also didn't find a an association with non heme iron intake. So iron from lentils And supplemental iron and type 2 diabetes, but they did find an association between heme iron intake This is this is not this is that exact This is just one of the studies that they did a meta-analysis on earlier And had the same low relative risk ratios for iron. This is that's not Even if I even I if I take the diabetes risk by 30 1.09 to 1.23 1.19 to 1.48 was the risk ratio and the average was 1.33 No, no, that's looking that's pulling together. Yeah, that's not pulling together just iron intake. That's pulling together That's pulling together. What is it pulling together? I see it was a look. Oh, I'll read the sentence pulling together one milligram of heme iron. It's pulling together ferritin receptors pooled rrs lowest intake of ferritin Then they Adjusted for inflammatory markers as well So this is not just heme iron man. If you're talking about heme iron and risk for this study It's 1.09 to 1.23, which in any no no frank frank you're miss reading things So in this meta-analysis the pooled risk ratio for type 2 diabetes In individuals with the highest levels of heme iron intake was 1.33 and they they did another risk ratio for Uh a daily increment of 1 milligram of heme iron, uh, which was a risk ratio of 1.16 Dude, honestly, like I like this has been like honestly like at least two hours out of this to me has just been completely Unproductive and bullshit and going back and forth on a study. That is really admissible frank Um, I just want to know uh why you think it's a good idea to intake any amount of heme iron when the vast majority of research shows It's harmful to human health First of all your research does not show that at all And I will and and you can let the you can let the chat interpret People can read these studies. Uh, and when the authors say there was a significant increase in risk of heart disease Diabetes and cancer from intake of heme iron Like I'm sure they'll interpret it that yeah, they didn't find any association between heme iron intake and risk of disease Well, no, they will when people read the studies and then they look at the relative risk And then they look at the methods they use and the actual data they use for these studies They'd probably laugh in your face, but to answer the question of Should we be taking heme iron? I said this earlier. It's in the context of the whole food in itself It's not you're not taking You're not physically taking heme iron and Ingesting it you're ingesting it in the context of either of an inflammatory food such as whether it's bacon or sausage or some processed meat Or you're consuming it in its natural context And then if you wanted to discuss, okay, what are the negative things of consuming those foods and those foods? That's a discussion you can have if you're trying to isolate this compound and use these studies with these super low Relative risk ratios. It does not make any sense. Okay. Well, frank Do you have any evidence that consuming heme iron from ideal sources is not linked with any type of disease? You can laboratory data or like any kind of mechanistic data that would suggest that This is not the burden of proof of me is not necessarily So you don't have any evidence for these claims. Okay No, the the evidence behind the claim is if you're consuming foods in order to get adequate nutrient density in the diet that Heme iron is present in those foods invariably Okay, frank I asked you if you have any evidence that heme iron from ideal sources Whatever those might be do you have any evidence that heme iron from these ideal sources? Do does not increase risk of chronic disease either from population-based data or from laboratory data? Do you mean like a positive association with higher heme iron lovers or just the foods that contain heme iron? No, just like the foods that contain heme iron say if you're eating Grass-fed beef liver or something like that or whatever you'd consider ideal heme iron intake Whatever that is. Do you have any data whether it's population-based or just like laboratory experimental Data, do you have any like data showing that heme iron intake from these ideal sources Is not associated or could not increase disease risk You just mean like anything in regards to consumption or pretty much any animal product that contains heme iron that shows No, we're talking about what you consider an ideal source. Oh like um Man is that Well, what would I look for? because like frank uh vegans don't have a higher risk of Like iron deficiency than meat-eaters. So what would be the point of coming like like what do you want me to like do you want me to show like Like well, you're claiming like consuming fish is associated with higher levels of No, no frank you're you're claiming that the research I linked was using Less than ideal sources of heme iron for their the basis for their research Uh, the only thing I'm saying about your research is the relative risk is too low to get any conclusive data. That's all I'm saying Okay, so like a 30 increased risk is insignificant to you. No the point is not that it's First of all, that's not the average in all those studies Second of all, it varies even in that study with you're saying 30 it was like from 1.04 to 1.67 And anyone who looks at relative risk ratios and data understands that that is not admissible as correct data I'm not I'm not explaining this again. I've explained this five times So what do you want me to show you that consuming a food that has Heme iron in it can be beneficial for your health? Uh, yeah, well, no Like I I'm asking you do you have any data showing that heme iron from ideal sources? Doesn't have this pro-oxidant effect or doesn't increase risk of chronic disease like heart disease diabetes cancer Uh, maybe this is something hold on And what would be the point of consuming heme iron in the first place? It's not the necessary point of as I said It's not necessarily the point of consuming heme iron the point is to consume High vitamin foods that it just inherently have heme iron. Okay. Well vegans don't have an increased risk of iron deficiency vitamin a deficiency vitamin k deficiency, so I'm not really understanding the argument here. I'm just let me just read something here real quick Okay, so this study I mean listen man, honestly, I don't have really I don't really have good studies that I would really like to be using for this or uh things that I think are great illustrations of my point, but it's definitely something we can Uh discuss on so this study that I just found This talks about dietary intake of iron heme iron magnesium and pancreatic cancer risk in European prospective investigations the cancer nutrition cohort and If we look at the results Intakes of total iron and heme iron were highest in spain greece in france Although for heme iron dietary instincts were even higher in sweden and los in the united kingdom The relative distribution across the country is comparable and then we look at the data magnesium take iron intake heme iron Uh The median so if we look at the heme iron intake in let's say, what's the high one? Well, what's the highest one here? If we look at th