Today we're going to talk about Gypsy Rose Blanchard and we're going to tell you about all the behaviors We see that tell us what she might do next what she might have done and things that make her anxious those types of things things You'll be interested in See when you see him on somebody else Greg wants to tell us about the videos we're going to watch Yeah, there are two videos one is with Deborah Roberts and the second is with a couple of podcasters We'll get to see very different behaviors between those and if you don't know Gypsy Rose Blanchard is she was convicted of second Degree murder in the murder of her mother. She had been held by her mother and treated Like she was very ill lots of drugs lots of unnecessary surgeries and she murdered her mother That's it. I don't hate him. I feel sorry for him and Just that somebody could do something so heartless and not express remorse Is it fair that he is incarcerated for life for killing your mom and you're out? I did my time He's doing his time for his part and I wish him well on his journey For Gypsy prison offered a chance at a new life You felt freer in prison than you had out in the world. Yes. Yes, absolutely. How so? How is that possible? Well, I was able to do the simple things like just Sitting in the Sun even in a restricted environment You can make friends and that is something like I had been kept from my whole life All right, Mark. This is Clint Fandango. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you what have you got what have I got look You know how I love a good story Very clear one is being set up here one that I call virtue unrecognized which essentially and and interestingly enough is the Cinderella story It's when within something negative if you look at it There's something very positive in there when you know a rat can turn into a coachman a pumpkin can turn into a coach somebody who Tends fires can be a princess in in what's coming across here is it's a journey not a sentence It's freedom not incarceration. There's the sun not the darkness and there's friends. They're not enemies It's a complete reversal of what we'd expect. We're expecting from her the darkness of being Sentenced she's saying there was no darkness there. It was a journey There was freedom actually and there was Sun and there was friendship there So it really is a complete turnaround of our usual expectations of what somebody's Experience should be Listen, if that's somebody's experience, why would we ever lock anybody up? It's no punishment. Is it if that's what you get out of it? Journey freedom son and friends like whoa then then justice clearly Doesn't work in the way that we expect it to so some purposeful I would say turn around there the Cinderella story. It's interesting later on She says she grew up on Disney princess movies and I think we're getting a sense of that Greg what do you got this one? Yeah, let's start by saying you some of you are gonna know a lot more about this case And I do because this has been in the media forever But I did do enough research to know a good bit about her and did see her in the Sun by the way her mother Put her in a hammock in the Sun at least one time. So she's been the Sun before I don't know that she was allowed to most of time. Let's also talk about abusive relationships We would probably celebrate if a woman killed her abusive husband who was being very violent and this mother did some pretty horrific things So as I go through this, I'm gonna point out things that I see and go I don't like that behavior, but also remembering that she was in a horrifically abusive Relationship even to the point her teeth fell out from drugs that she didn't need to be taking There's a whole lot of things there The other one is when you're raised by will you act like a wolf if you think about what's culturally acceptable and what?  You can see it. You can see we're gonna see a difference in her when she's not dealing with an authoritarian figure versus another and Deborah Roberts has an adversarial position to her mark. You always are talking about that. She's straight across I would take a no-bleak probably give her a little bit more room and see what happens As we walk through this though, they're a handful of things. She's got this elongated verbal Oliver her vowels are elongated as she's fishing to see where you're going And she parses facts. I did not murder in fact She was charged with and convicted with second-degree murder by very definition. That's murder now She didn't do the act. She had a boyfriend who stabbed her mother, but she didn't do the act There's some cuts and edits in this thing and I don't usually bring these up But I think I'm seeing discomfort And probably some restarts in this video the reason they're piecing this thing together We'll watch through the one with Deborah Roberts. I think there's there Mark you're right. She comes in with I did my time He's doing his time and she does request for approval and she's punctuating that But overall she's locked down and I think we're seeing a person who deals with authority a certain way which we would expect because she's been in prison And she's been in trouble and she had to carry off some kind of pretend life Long before she went to prison. Scott, what do you got? All right, we see a lot of those short single shoulder shrugs And I think we see them so often. It's part of her baseline now. I don't I don't think they would Have anything to do with deception or hiding anything. I think when she's nervous she just starts doing that that shoulder comes up As part of her baseline So having watched the entire Interview and for me that lip licking is prepping for the next question. I don't you know, it's it's not even mouth grooming She's just I think she's just got a dry mouth from the from the interview And it sounds to me when she's answering We're hearing everything you'd want to hear in in that answer from that question It sounds like it's been prepared. It's it's she's listened, you know, she's said it and then Maybe somebody's helped her with it And then she puts a lot of emphasis on the words hate and sorry So I thought that was all interesting But her baseline is what's interesting to me because it's got a lot of things in it that that would usually tell us Someone's not being honest about something But I'm but I'm not seeing any of those as that as we go through here chase. What do you got? Yeah, I agree with y'all That I think those two shoulder shrugs might be slightly significant in that the the chin Turns into the shoulder and this one one of those things that we often talk about I think that was Joe Navarro came up with that Indicating a lack of certainty a lack of confidence in what somebody's saying And they're precisely at the moments when she says wish him well on his journey Uh, so just lacking lacking a little certainty and what that what's going on there and This woman's mother shaved her head to fake having cancer fed her through a tube for years And even made her fake being paralyzed for attention and I think money I think there was some money involved here. I'm not sure greg if if you've done some research I don't know I Look he's thinking about his car When the technology fails You're muted greg. We can't hear you. We can't hear you. You're muted Yeah, I've got an unstable internet connection. I don't know what's causing it, but Right You know, I've spent my entire life trying to keep abreast of all the things that are changing in the world and being a lifelong learner I really appreciate our sponsor today brilliant.org Brilliant is a powerful tool a platform to help you as a lifelong learner I'm sure you are because you're watching us and trying to learn what we know It's a tool to allow you to go after any content you would like in a style you would like So for example, you can choose a length of your content You can set it for your understanding your knowledge level of that And if you over set it, you'll be able to figure that out pretty quickly because the challenges will help you to understand where you are That ability to take any topic from data analysis to scientific thinking to logic to ai to engineering There's a list that you can't imagine To a level that you can pick it up in pieces I always say that humans only learn through process If that were not true, we could just plug our heads in and learn everything all at once This is not the matrix You have to learn in a process driven approach and brilliant does a great job of that I like the scientific thinking module because it teaches you how to think about the world around you in a physical sense And you'll notice most of the time we're talking about these people who tell us they've done x or y You'll hear a logic piece come in there and their courses on logic These are all well-developed. These are all intended for you and designed for you You can choose a length of the course the frequency of the course and with mobile app You can even choose where you do this course Of all the topics that we cover on the show There's the every one of them has a root in some of the things that are available out on brilliant.org This is a great opportunity for you that first 30 days are free And the first 200 people will get 20 off Pass across the entire platform great opportunity use our link brilliant.org Slash the behavior panel don't miss out Sorry go ahead So greg there was money involved is that right yeah, yeah, of course you got a free house Because their house was destroyed by storm and there probably was some charity and that kind of thing I don't know all the the level of detail, but yes, there was certainly a lifestyle change as a result of it So this is uh Com behavior like this is commonly known as munch housings by proxy But the technical term for this is factitious disorder imposed on another that's like the technical term for what that is but according to the definitions It's not munch housings and we're going to talk about that In a video that's coming up She had a childhood that most of us I think can't even imagine or start to imagine There's no doubt that this has some deep wounds that i'm sure shaped the way that she lives and views the world today So i'll be looking for some of these things in the coming videos And didi her mother Had a tremendous amount of control exerted over gypsy her whole life which I'm in this the murder happened when she was 24 the frontal cortex isn't even finished developing At this time So there's physical abuse super strict super supervision likely probably led to a profound sense of powerlessness and dependency And in an adult once that person grows up this could result in some serious difficulty with trust and forming any kind of Healthy relationship one of those tape replays I don't hate him. I feel sorry for him and just that somebody could do something So heartless and not express remorse Is it fair that he is incarcerated for life for killing your mom and you're out? I did my time He's doing his time for his part and I wish him well on his journey For gypsy prison offered a chance at a new life You felt freer in prison than you had out in the world. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. How so? How is that possible? Well, I was able to do the simple things like just Sitting in the sun even in a restricted environment You can make friends and that is something like I had been kept from my whole life You nervous at all? No, I think I've I've been through so many interviews Right now. I feel like second nature now. It kind of kind of yeah, has it all been pretty much the same? Um, excuse me. Uh, good morning America was actually the hardest Yeah, there was there was a lot of difficult questions in that and I we just came from the view and I was like, oh my god I hope these ladies are not mean to me. They were all very very nice How can they even be mean to you? I don't know. I mean, um, I had did some international interviews last night And one of the the questions was like, how do you feel now that you're getting all this attention?  Oh, so like she just flat out said it was a lady from the uk and I'm kind of like Okay, and and everybody in the room just like jumped up and was like ready to like am I you know, Fine, am I okay?   But in the state of Missouri, there's no such thing as accessory to murder So technically they couldn't charge you. They couldn't charge me with accessory because that that charge doesn't exist So, I mean had I been in another state, I would have been charged with accessory to commit murder. Oh, that makes it All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm gonna just point out a handful of things here. She's more open. It's less confrontational It's also not network tv. This is a podcast. I think they have a You know 170 180 000 followers. So good following But I think it's or subscribers, but I think it is less threatening probably and they're younger I think all of that probably comes into play and they're friendly to her There's a lack of certainty and and scott. Well, she does this a lot I think it is a lack of certainty about topic. Well, I think it is too But I think it's part of her baseline. So it's it's the whole thing is yeah When chase was saying that earlier, I totally agree But it's just so often and we know that I think the reason it's so often is because Sorry, I think the reason it's so often is because she has no idea how to behave.  She's illustrating with her whole hands and body And you know, she's talking about a person calling her a murderer and this was funny This is before they actually started the interview in this case and in fact Probably is by definition a murderer if you're charged with You know second-degree murder it's still murder But you you can see that she is comfortable with these guys She's starting to one thing to remind you and this takes nothing away from how she's doing here When she was 16 years old, she was faking intellectual Disability I mean she was go watch the video So if you're doing that your whole life It takes personality to overcome That natural tendency to want to do what you've always done I always fish tastes like what it swims in Organism does what made it successful, but she doesn't appear to be doing this here You hear she's talking not in the front of her mouth. She's further back. She's talking comfortably She's illustrating. She's telling these people how she felt in this interview And she says that good morning america video was the toughest she had done So probably a good indicator We see those weird cuts is because they're having to restart and do and change and seeing her hands jump around So let's look for this and see if she's more fluid in this one chase. What do you got? You'll ever notice When some legal stuff is about to come out of somebody's mouth the words in the state of Are always first But every other time it's just in missouri in texas But it's in the state of I don't know why we do that. That's turning talk. Yeah, everybody does that even me So but I think her wondering If the interviewers would be mean to her makes sense Her experiences with her mother who was the primary authority figure in her life being abusive and manipulative I think would probably lead to a distrust of authority figures which tv people tend to be especially in this country There's a lot of hygienic gestures from her desire To maybe improve her appearance and this little hair Pulling back thing has become exponentially more common. Have you guys noticed this on tiktoks and this? This little thing here is super common And we'll see a little bit of lip licking here But and that's a hygienic gesture too, which is sometimes a stress response But it's I'm not seeing deception The guy in the sweater though Was way more fascinating to watch than anything else He is incredibly nervous in this video The clothing adjustments The blink rate through the roof and we blink more often when we're stressed and he is blinking so rapidly The sipping on the water and while he sipping looking over at her like this while he's while he's doing that Suggests a lot of nervousness and stress. He's also Lip licking the hygienic gesture. He's rotating back and forth in his chair. He does facial denting I think that's another navarro Coined phrase which is a stress a stress response And this is one of the biggest stress clusters i've ever seen and it's not even the person we're analyzing In his breathing rate When you get back to this video when it comes back on your screen in a minute Watch his chest and and do what mark says every once in a while try to breathe along with him Try to match his breathing rate and see how you feel Maybe there's some kind of arousal there It could be because of the stress the podcast could be some kind of physical arousal there But it's followed by an immediate attempt to conceal it Which then makes the stress level even higher So I think this video really shows us even with a mountain of stress stress isn't just about deception This is an incredible demonstration of this Mark, what do you got? Yeah, same as you chase. I thought it was kind of odd the behavior is quite contagious He says you nervous now to her And then instantly shows just as you said a whole packet of you know, potentially nervous behavior So does his as I understand it his partner not only in in interview, but life partner across And the subject suddenly all of them that they're moving in their chairs. There's coat movement. There's hair movement There's nails. There's water. There's the microphone movement. There's clothing It's just a contagion of of indicators of nobody being comfortable And and and that's kind of odd because the interviewers here should be pretty Comfortable. I mean, I assume they do this most every week and so well, what is it discomfort about? You know that it's professional because I've got podcast mics. You've got You've got headphones.  That makes me assume they're doing it once a week You know, they've got they've got the the shore mics there. They've got the headphones So it's kind of you know, it's odd. Anyway, um in the state of yeah No, I assume people say in the state of because in the united states the laws are not united across all the All the states what what you can, you know be put down for in one one state is not what you'll be put down for in another state Um, and it's interesting how she kind of goes. Well, technically. I'm not a murderer Well, I think it's when you say greg. I think technically in that state she was Um, but but she has some kind of technicality where she says I didn't I wasn't actually holding the weapon And therefore it's not I didn't do it. Well, I think in that state You you're not just an accessory. You are you are hearty to it and and and you it was yeah It was murder. Okay, interesting So seems to take No responsibility around around that Uh, yeah, so contagion no responsibility Very interesting. Let's see how we carry on scott. What do you got on this one? All right Since these are two different interviews we're looking at here that the first part of this Of the second interview the one that happened later Um compared to the other one. She's really relaxed. She's calm. She's prepared She has no problem getting right into engaging I think the problem you guys are talking about with the uh interviewer with a guy because I thought about that as well Because watch his thumb and it's all over that that armrest I think He they don't they're trying to remember the questions. That's what he's trying to do Make sure he's got his questions right because I don't seem reading from anything I I think she gets on the phone one time as his wife gets on the phone one time And maybe that's what she's looking at But I think maybe he's worried about the I would assume he maybe he's worried about the questions He's getting ready to ask make sure they're in the right order making sure he's not leaving anything behind So the whole thing makes sense That's the only thing I can come up with because he's so uncomfortable during this You know data point Yeah, he comes out of the gate before he starts asking questions With stuff he's going to ask later because he comes up again later I think what he's trying to control the but it's amazing how much it shows Just the data point she jumped out of the gate because I watched the whole interview Yeah, and back to that single shoulder shrug thing we were talking about I think uh, Joe Navarro was talking about when there's when that single shoulder shrug goes up And the chin goes toward it. That's when you're asking about something Whether they're being deceptive or not. I think that's what that is And then the normal show single shoulder shrugs are or what we as we always do Put those behaviors within the category of being unsure But the other one is is deceptive and that's and that's when I started looking for that I finally I said dad go and he's right about that So that that's where I got I I saw that as well But uh, so we're seeing quite a few adapters from her. This lets us know she's she's stressed But she's she's trying I think this is easier for her because it's people her age And they're not asking her questions about her About the murder whether she did it or not Whereas in the other interview, I think those her questions are a little bit more Hardline they're a little bit more aggressive than than these two are But we see that that finger to her face. We're seeing a rubber thumb and finger together All these things let us know she's stressed. She's got great eye contact But she's got low and she's got low blink rate So and again chase like you're talking about that hair thing. I think that's one of those little Um, almost like a virus behavior virus that goes around when somebody sees that they started doing it too So maybe since she's got so many tiktok Followers, maybe she's on tiktok all the time sees all those the the girls on there doing their hair like that Maybe she's doing that too. Maybe that's the reason for that I would that's the only thing I could I could come up with as well Let me go down a couple of the roads, but I think that's one That's what I think is happening there uh We're seeing the behaviors of of of nervousness and low level stress But these are the ones that are normal for any interview One thing I noticed and you guys start watching this too unless you observe it as well As we go through these and she's talking to this to the the couple there She doesn't answer questions to him. He'll ask her a question and she answers everything to the woman Which I thought was really odd. She doesn't engage with him as much as she does the woman He'll look right at her and she'll look right at him. He'll ask her a question Then she'll turn to that woman and start answering Which I thought was fascinating Um, but overall we can see she's uncomfortable because she's I think she's trying to get these people to like her And she's gotten good at that because of the way she was raised She's been put in a situation where she has to make people Like her and and okay the way she's she's Um acting because she knows in her heart for a lot of it. It's not real That's not true. She's older than when she was acting younger. Does that make sense? Yeah so No classic behaviors that let us know she's on guard or under a great deal of stress I keep talking about that, but I think that's important She is stressed But she's not rubbing her hands on her legs and getting real still and staring him down or staring her down It's just everything looks as it should for the normal nervousness of someone meeting a couple people And then she's being interviewed at the same time Their voice tone and cadence. They don't indicate stress. Nothing is too loud We see a couple of weird laughs, but nothing she doesn't laugh too loud and and not out of context So and and all these kind of things like that disappear as she settles in the the more relaxed She gets the the odd laughing and all that stuff sort of disappears Then her voice tone gets lower and lower as she goes through this interview, which lets us know she's relaxing as well Uh, but they're markedly different in this interview than in the other interview One of those tape replays You nervous at all? No, I think I've I've been through so many interviews Right now. I feel like second nature now at this point. It kind of kind of Yeah, has it all been pretty much the same Everyone is assuming. Uh, good morning. America was actually the hardest Yeah, there was there was a lot of difficult questions in that and I we just came from the view and I was like, oh my god I hope these ladies are not mean to me. They were all very very nice How can anyone be mean to you? I don't know. I mean, um, I had did some international interviews last night And one of the the questions was like, how do you feel now that you're getting all this attention?  Oh, so like she just flat out said it was a lady from the uk and I'm kind of like Okay, and and everybody in the room just like jumped up and was like ready to like am I you know Am I okay?  Oh, that makes sense. Okay Not everyone chooses to learn from their mistakes, but you clearly were someone who Seems like they tried to make the most of their time while in prison and yeah Do you remember that moment? Was there a epiphany of like I don't want to be this person? I actually want to take accountability for the role I played and not let this define me Actually, there was a there was a class that I took and it was called um, icvc Um, and it's called it's an acronym for um impact of crime on victims. Um, and I took this class it was a 12th class and It's all about accountability and so As I was going through the courses. I realized that I had made mistakes before my crime I had made choices before my crime um And I feel like even though I didn't get in trouble for those things This was a chance and an opportunity for me to Honestly learn from those things that I've done in the past So and I completed that class and actually went back to teach the class. Oh, yeah Yeah, and it was it was really enjoyable for me To pass the baton on and just kind of like teach others what I have learned It was a very impactful class for me and I think it's sad, you know, there are people that don't Want to better themselves, but for me it was always known It was it was part of that freedom to do You know things with my life that I've never done before So one of the first things I did was, you know, get into gd classes because I wanted to better my education All right chase. What do you got? I I have no idea why I hate Vocal fry so much Uh, I think maybe because it's just deliberately fake and artificial I'm not sure But her up talk The use of like all the time the vocal fry all combined indicate to me That we're seeing somebody who's heavily and easily influenced by trends and fads In popular culture. So this little bit of information can be a huge lever to an interrogator a huge lever So her behavior though Looks mostly honest. I think there's a genuine feeling that She's got of the desire for freedom and based on her seemingly captive childhood It makes sense that any form of freedom would feel pretty amazing. This looks mostly honest scott All right, I think it's interesting that she's So relaxed here.  I thought that was that was pretty interesting. So it lets us know she's starting to feel comfortable She's she doesn't have a problem. I think Um, as she's learned to get along with other people meet people And and mix in with them, you know or become part of the group or part of something So I think she's pretty behavior Or pretty pretty behavior. I think she's pretty relaxed And this sort of behavior is reserved for the competent so I can sit there and go Uh, you know lean back and just start talking about, you know, I'll tell you what I think So the competent people usually do that. So I think she her confidence is building So far and she looks fairly normal for what's happened to her. I think at this point in in a conversation And she says I made mistakes before my my crime. I made choices before my crime These are when she says these it's classic fading facts at the end of these and I think that's because she doesn't want to Um, she doesn't like living in that in the world of thinking about all those things So it kind of bothers her. So that's why it kind of gets quiet at the end because she's normal She's a normal person just talking until the until those things come up. She talks talks about a murder She's involved in so it starts getting quieter there um I'm trying to think of of an example Or we've seen that same thing before not just fading facts, but somebody who's trying to fit in I can't think of one and a delby Okay, that's it. That's where we've seen it. Okay. Yeah, you're right. I knew there was one and I couldn't I couldn't find it anywhere But again, this is different behavior than we saw in the first in the first interview And it's a lot more relaxed and she's she's I think she's gaining confidence as she goes along Uh mark, what do you got? Yeah, I think there's some quite masterful maneuvering around the focus of the question here or the talk Which is around I would say responsibility Around the murder she goes to that she's done courses on Accountability and that actually she ended up a professor as she doesn't use the word professor But I'll use that word she ended up teaching the course on accountability Well accountability is very different from responsibility with accountability. It's like accountancy you say look, you know I promise you will get To and then you work out. Well, did I get to where was that person accountable to me or accountable to themselves? What did they say they would deliver and what did they actually deliver? Responsibility is really you may not work out beforehand what you're going to deliver But you knew you delivered it's like I take responsibility for what happened there Accountability I look back on time and I go. What did I say would happen and here's what happened? I'm accountable for that She also talks about mistakes before my crime and puts the stress on before So she wants to maneuver around that learn from those so she learned she's learned from the mistakes Before her crime. She's not saying she's learned from the mistake of her crime because she's Count she was she says she she's taking no account For that crime. She's taking account of the crimes before that crime I'm very big stress on teach the class this for me is a is a is a really good redirect Uh, you know scott. I can I I completely agree that she may not she may be Uncomfortable going into that world of the mother's murder But I think that's why everybody's interested in her. So I mean Are you you know over you're utterly naive and there's a good there'd be a good argument for her being totally naive But the only reason people are interested in her is she's is matricide.  It's it's a huge taboo. You're not meant to do it She did it and so people are fascinated With with that so it would be naive to go Actually, I don't really want to talk about about that. I'm a bit uncomfortable in that Well, that's what people are going to talk about for sure Uh, but you know, there is this other part of her as everybody's saying here, which is about freedom And and betterment and why not we can understand why she'd want freedom and there's nothing better than Being better than you were the day before I can't think of a better thing than than seeking that But again, it all seems a little bit of a misdirection to me. Greg. What are your thoughts on this one? Yeah, I I think two things This is a rebranding exercise by any means she's coming out to rebrand herself and say hey, I've just changed person Probably is a changed person. I mean you she appears to be But it is clear that she also is aware of the fact that she cannot have this branding exercise without The mistakes in the bat in the past and if you want to hear that just listen to those two Scott I agree with you while they're fading facts at the end. They start off powerfully the two most powerful words She says are mistakes and choices. So she's saying boom. Boom. Yeah, I did do this But so she knows that she can't come to this dance. Look If she that woman we're not gypsy rose blanchard and we're sitting there on that couch What would we be talking about not her we wouldn't be she's not Famous because she didn't kill her mother you get what I'm saying The only reason she's at the dance is because of something that occurred now If she had walked away from her mother, she still would be famous because she would have said my mother did this and So she's got a rebranding exercise.  I made choices. I'm re you know, I've been I've been I have remorse. We don't see her saying anything about remorse here, however But through penitentiary I've grown and now I'm a different person. So we watch her and her whole body's illustrating That's what we're looking for elbows away when she's talking. She's got emphasis in the right words I agree to do chase. She's got one thing that matters to her and that's freedom because She's been locked up for two different ways. I say this all the time when people ask me Where's the one thing out?  It's being locked up being locked in a box I'm not wired for that. I've had it one week. That was enough for me Just like you have I'm sure you think back those days are tough So what we're looking at is a person has to come out who has to be believable enough for people to start listening And we're seeing her adapt and overcome The debba roberts interview was before this interview and she said was one of her toughest Then she went to the view. She was afraid there. These people are friendly She's starting to understand how to pitch this lesson and we're going to look for Deviation and what we are really going to look for is her getting comfortable enough To assume that everybody thinks what she thinks and starts to spew the wrong kind of language That would be a good indicator. There's something hiding in there that we want to know about One of those tape replays Not everyone chooses to learn from their mistakes, but you clearly were someone who Seems like they tried to make the most of their time while in prison and yeah Do you remember that moment? Was there a epiphany of like I don't want to be this person? I actually want to take accountability for the role I played and not let this define me Actually, there was a there was a class that I took and it was called um, icvc Um, and it's called it's an acronym for um impact of crime on victims. Um, and I took this class it was a 12 foot class and it it's all about accountability and so As I was going through the courses I realized that I had made mistakes before my crime I had made choices before my crime um and I feel like even though I didn't get in trouble for those things This was a chance and an opportunity for me to Honestly learn from those things that I've done in the past So and I completed that class and actually went back to teach the class. Oh, yeah Yeah, and it was it was really enjoyable for me To pass the baton on and just kind of like teach others what I have learned It was a very impactful class for me and I think it's sad, you know, there are people that don't Want to better themselves, but for me it was always known It was it was part of that freedom to do You know things with my life that I've never done before so one of the first things I did was You know get into gd classes because I wanted to better my education Much of your life with your mom was built on Essentially getting people to sort of empathize with you How do you convince people That you're not manipulating them now as you and your mom did so many years ago I don't think I can convince anyone anything.  I don't believe my mother was a monster.   I go first on this one So we have closed eye talking or that had moved back and forth and this looks a little bit odd However, I think there's a reason for that. I think we're seeing the residual behavior from trauma therapy here Specifically edmr Which is a treatment for trauma a therapeutic treatment for trauma And that protocol is as you have the subject follow your finger back and forth as they talk about the Experience or you have like Greg and I talked about earlier today about How you have that going in your in your ears for some It's tones you can put any music and it goes back and forth. It's a bilateral stimulation that Helps bring both sides of your brain together both hemispheres and for somehow when you when you connect them that way It helps relieve that trauma or as you relive it Somehow it helps wipe that trauma. I've talked to a few guys who are soldiers or military guys that that have gone through that Therapy and they've told me how well it works And why you may see something like that on someone because as they think about They're a lot of times like we saw with her when she closed her eyes We'd see her eyes going back and forth And her head moving just a little bit. I don't think she's trying to read She may be trying to retrieve information or something doing that but I really think it's from that um from the therapy So it makes sense earlier that we're not seeing that in the other interview because she's not under stress She's not having to relive those things as uh in depth as she is here There's all this stress of this interview But on top of talking about what happened and on the other one There's not as much there's not much stress at all other than being on camera on a podcast as she talks about The events that happened she doesn't get into detail into those and it doesn't get super personal Or it does with this one So I think that's why we're seeing that the residuals of that which could be I can be completely wrong But I've seen that before that's what that kept reminding me of we see it a couple of more times But only in this this interview not in the one with the uh with the couple talking to her Greg what do you got? Yeah, one thing When we talk about eye movement eye movement means something until it doesn't and people break Eye contact to the right left down or up because they get accustomed to doing it Right when I'm talking to you and I need a moment to think I may not even have to think about anything But I may tune you out just for a second as I would look away So I'm always cautious when we're not controlling a conversation and there are this many cuts and edits in a video This one has a hell of a lot of cuts and edits in it There's an interesting thing she starts off kind of locked up and barriered But she um she then moves pretty freely as as this thing starts But she has a chin jet right in the very beginning that chin jet looks defiant to me and there's a cut right in there too Which makes me think is there's something going on between these two. There's a little altercation. There's some stress She's feeling awkward something and they've had to restart the video So that part comes up. I got your eye blocking as well There's some language in here that makes me think that deep in her psyche. She still knows She's got those two wolves or whatever you want to call it. She's got what the new model is that she's trying to live And the old model that is hardwired because it's a combination of genes And upbringing she has to fight so When you hear that when she says I'm not setting out to manipulate anyone That language is loaded to me that setting out is a push-pull word is a negotiation word And it makes me think that in her head she probably has some doubt now That's fair for somebody in her situation. But in a conversation in an interrogation I would go what do you mean you're not setting out to is there a possibility Because that word is there it gives you an open door to lean into that Um, there's but there's enough stuff in here. She's learned that there's a way of behaving that's different and she brings it up She says I learned from Mark you talk a lot about young women and their curved bodies being insecure When they pan in across her look at how curved her body is sitting in that chair You can see she's insecure. She's uncomfortable and it's really easy to tell The Other thing is when they ask about her mother being a monster look at the sorrow Look at the tips of her brows rise. I chased you said it dead when she was talking looks real That that sorrow rises and then you watch your chin drop She does some distaste, but I think that's in her baseline That thing she does a lot when she's speaking And then sadness and fading facts when she asks her if she misses her mother I It all looks believable. I mean, I think we're seeing a person who knows she's got to rebrand She knows she has to bring all this to the table and she priced himself out. I would imagine Considering the situation considering what she's been through and she's sitting in probably Something she's seen on tv a million times. I don't know if in prison they got cable But they certainly have network tv mark. What do you got? Uh, yeah, you're right there greg a concave abdomen there often You'll see it as a symptom in the head and the shoulders rolling forward But as you move down the body you find out it's because of the abdomen Retreating often seen in in young females young males as well But more often in young females in my experience Uh, so I agree. Uh, this this kind of closed eye talking going on there Especially comes up around. I don't think I'm not I don't believe and on the denials reasons Uh that she has for her her mother. Well, I I think this is about the the combat that's going on here It's it's a fairly aggressive questioning. She's bound up really by the interviewer who said you grew up Kind of manipulating and conning. Therefore, how do I know you're not manipulating and conning now? Well, that's a bit of a bind Isn't it like trust me or don't trust me and she says look, I don't think that I'm not I don't believe So it's it's a little bit stuck the question is a the way of asking that is a very aggressive way of asking it I mean what you might do and it's not that the next interviewer won't try the same kind of question Just through a different tack in a in a in a maybe a less aggressive way But somebody a little more more with less agenda in their questioning might just create questions that might reveal Somebody manipulating or might reveal them being um, uh, Uh, I guess less uh honest or or or more of a con A vocal click there After mental illness and then goes into demons So two ways of thinking about the mother there either mental illness or demons and then struggling with let's expect the demons because that that Fits the struggle with demons and then needing mental health care going back to the mental health idea So kind of two reasons put forward as to why the mother is like the mother Is so covering a lot of ground there for the audience to say look you may not If if you don't want to go with the mental health thing Let's go with the demons if you don't want to go with the demons thing I got a mental health idea for you there covers quite a lot of ground So we might be able to join up to the idea of the mother may not be fully uh at at total personal Fault or or knowing fault If if that mother is dealing with mental health or or demons Uh, which i'm not sure whether she's talking about the the literal idea of of of um of Entities that enter your body from a different realm Or the idea of being kind of possessed by An attitude or something. I don't know where her demonology goes there, but a lot of bases Covered there so, you know for somebody who is um Who is meant to be in in one story? I kind of I I imagined have some arrested development There seems like there's quite a lot of development in her ability to Spin an idea You know, I'm not saying she's being wholly manipulative here, but she isn't without the capacity To spin some really solid good ideas and even in this combat situation Take the story in a way that's more advantageous to her God what have you got on this one or we all been I think we've all been halfway. We're done Oh chase chase chase can I go chase?  The stuff we're seeing in this clip is different. It's a change The eye blocking behavior where she's closing her eyes while she's talking is pretty unusual to see in this context in so many cases we've covered before it indicates signs of superiority or someone being on a moral high ground This one is the other meaning I think That we talk about and that's when you're seeing During this statement Making a denial and it's an indicator of discomfort and stress And alone it's probably just discomfort with the topic and not deceptive at all and we are seeing it pretty much in isolation here And she says i'm not setting out to manipulate anyone. There's a little I want you to watch that when she says that what the the shoulder raise is not really a raise. It's like a reflexive Jerk upward like a little jump Which is pretty interesting and she says I don't believe my mother was a monster There's eye closure there again during a stressful topic. Then she says she had a lot of demons During that one part. There was lip licking with a tongue jut Which we know is our the first way that we ever learned to say no or I don't like this is by sticking our tongue out I have a one and a half month old baby here and I see it every day Uh, that's a tongue jut and I finally get to like watch it happen. It's kind of cool Down left eye movement for internal dialogue the small blink rates bite to 65 blinks per minute We blink more often when we're stressed And the average is about 17 So that's a pretty high spike, but only only during that one statement So this is likely something she believes but she's really struggling to say it out loud I don't see a lot of I don't see a mountain of deception here And the final deviation from baseline is do you miss your mom? She's rapidly shaking her head here in a different way than anything I've seen and I watched a ton of interviews today just to get a good baseline So rapid head shaking is not deceptive. It's not a uh Super weird thing, but it's a change and when we see a change something significance probably going on in somebody's head So this doesn't let me read her mind But I would be asking a follow-up question probably about this thing for sure one of those tape replays Much of your life with your mom was built on essentially getting people to sort of empathize with you How do you convince people that you're not manipulating them now as you and your mom did so many years ago? I don't think I can convince anyone anything.     Um, she shoplifted Um, there was fraud like there was a lot of things criminal activity that she was doing That I grew up in I watched her do all these things Um, so for me, it is a conscious effort to You know, go back in my mind and realize That is the wrong thing to do. This is the right way to do things I'm reprogramming myself and it takes a minute. Um, I have a pretty clear knowledge of what right and wrong now Um, the obvious stuff, um, but for the things that maybe aren't so clear or the lines are maybe a little blurry I do have a wonderful dad and a wonderful stepmom and a wonderful husband That I can ask them questions like hey, what do you think about this? And and also i'm in therapy. So, um, I talk about it with my therapist I am very raw and honest and and saying hey, I I know that this was not a normal childhood. Um, I'm the product of someone that was very deceitful How do I prevent myself from? Falling prey to to being like her. I don't think I'm like my mother at all. Um, I try actively not to be Okay, uh mark, I'm gonna go ahead and have chase go first chase. What do you got? She was manipulated from a Super young age to deceive and manipulate as a means of survival. Keep that in mind Deception and manipulation gained her the bottom two rows of mazlo's pyramid, which is horrifying and Disgusting and I cannot imagine But it makes sense That it might still be in there But I don't think she even enjoys that at all. I think there's something else going on We aren't seeing a lot of sympathy seeking behavior. And that's the hard wiring that she had for Decades She had this sympathy seeking artificial behavior. We're not seeing it So I think the first one is about identity formation She lived this life Dictated by her mother's deception So she might face a giant challenge in really knowing her own identity That's separate from the illness and victimhood that was kind of imposed on her And finally, I think she's using advocacy as a coping mechanism So I think she her role as an advocate for the victims of of munchausen's by proxy Could be seen as a way of making sense of her experiences regaining control over the narrative And when the sense of real purpose is lost people kill themselves This has been proven for thousands of years there's a lot of honest behavior here in my opinion and The things that are outside any norm here are baseline for her and The online videos that I've seen great Yeah, interestingly you can tell she's stressed around a handful of things watch her foot her foot You know watching her hands moving her hands if her hand moves and her foot moves no big deal It's body movement, but watch her foot bounce three times three times when she says Right or wrong are pretty clear um I have to make a conscious effort But I have people I can trust and I ask those are bold big things to say and like I said she has to rebrand and she has to talk about these things that are inside In order to rebrand that are uncomfortable. So I think we see good elongated vowels for key phrases that she brings up and overall, I think it's Trustworthy believable. She's telling you things that in her mind are a big deal that she's telling you But at the same time they're big enough to deal with their punctuating I would lean over and ask in a situation I didn't trust I would lean over and ask questions when I see that foot bounce because it would mean Something's important to her, but I think because of what she's trying to do. She's trying to tell you look And I think it's pretty bold to come out and say look I am deeply inside not the same kind of person you are because I was raised this way I was raised by wolves and now I have to think about it I think I had a pretty good handle on this on the gray areas I can ask somebody else that's pretty bold and I what is she? 32 I think I heard in the in the interview. So 32 years almost that time incarcerated or living in that situation It's pretty well adjusted to be able to come out and say that now we'll we'll look for more as we go Scott, what do you got? All right, the single shoulder shrugs have absolutely vanish. We don't even see one and her voice tone has gotten lower And it's lower than it was at the first part See it go lower and lower and lower because I think she's getting more relaxed as she goes along in here The mouth grooming I think is part of her baseline As she's processing information one thing I thought was pretty interesting here Was we see her looking around the room? I think she's threat checking I think for some reason she's kicked back into that thing some some could be wrong something's going on somebody I don't know about Maybe she's so relaxed Like she was as a child and her mother was giving her all this bad information Maybe she's relaxed here and thinking maybe something's up But when I see somebody who looks around the room constantly like that quite often they're they're a victim of trauma Or or have have come out of a situation of trauma not Not too long ago. You know it could be Military people it could be someone who was part of was involved in a robbery or something like that But I see threat checking isn't just looking around the room casually. She's she's checking. She's looking around So I thought that was pretty interesting Mark where you got? Yeah, so I think this is really interesting chase given that the video before this one you were saying look massive baseline change And I don't disagree with that at all Because in in this one everybody's going look seems very very comfortable yet in both interviews It's basically the same question Basically exactly the same question but asked in a slightly different way in fact a very different way And and a very different manner the first question that we had there In the in the previous video Was look, you know, you grew up a con. How do I know you're not calling me now or words to that effect and the interviewer pretty much asked the question within that time span This last video that we just saw Most of that was the questioner aren't asking the question.  Do you think that'll be a behavior you have so it's a much more couched Soft away of getting across. What is the same question of look you've grown up a con How do I know you're not calling me right now? Because of course people want to To know that because some people who are following this story My guess is some of them probably not the majority, but they they were they were watching the original story I don't know. Maybe they gave money or they sympathized or they and now they're going hang on. I was being conned So how do I know I'm not being conned? now um So really interesting Uh, and and I agree with everybody much karma. So it so Surely it must be something around the way the question's being asked getting used to these interviews Uh, much more comfort that means we get a very very different Length of answer from her a very different answer different behaviors from her. So isn't that interesting in that if you Are interviewing somebody and you want to get the truth Or closer to the truth in the situation Maybe get somebody else to do it as well same questions See what they managed to get out of them. Maybe choose a different time A different space to do it in because you may find that there's a whole different set of behaviors And when you bring all of those together Maybe you'll find out look we we all agree we all agree on this On on what we're seeing or maybe you'll find some discrepancies there one of those tape replays I think the world has a ton of empathy for what you went through and I think sometimes the questions people do have You know, a lot of people have watched the documentaries have seen the act Um, and I think it's that those scenes at the end where you're being interrogated by the police and you're lying initially about what happened And I'll so much of that documentary also talks about your mother and her deceit and her ability to manipulate all so many people and a kind of a A through line or a common question throughout the documentary was kind of, you know, how much of gypsy's mom Is potentially still in you and what you learned and you know those behaviors Do you think about that and is that something that you've actively tried to overcome? Of course, of course, you know, I lived with her for 24 years of my life and she did things in her life She shoplifted Um, there was fraud like there was a lot of things criminal activity that she was doing That I grew up in I watched her do all these things. Um, so for me it is a conscious effort to You know go back in my mind and realize That is the wrong thing to do. This is the right way to do things I'm reprogramming myself and it takes a minute Um, I have a pretty clear knowledge of what right and wrong now. Um, the obvious stuff But for the things that maybe aren't so clear or the lines are maybe a little blurry I do have a wonderful dad and a wonderful stepmom and a wonderful husband That I can ask them questions like hey, what do you think about this? And and also I'm in therapy. So, um, I talk about it with my therapist I am very raw and honest and and saying hey, I know that this was not a normal childhood um, I'm the product of someone that was very deceitful How do I prevent myself from? Falling prey to to being like her I don't think I'm like my mother at all. Um, I try actively not to be One thing you've been very open about is Your relationship with nick.  Um, you know, I I think that we both like him and I both have a lot of regrets Um, you know, obviously I wish that this would have never happened this way now for him specifically You know, I did my time.  Um I acknowledge that I am the reason for that however I don't feel either that It's a situation where it's a sympathetic type of situation Okay, and I I mean The reason why I say that is because in my past relationships I've had two relationships since I've been incarcerated And each one of my exes and even my husband is like baby If you would have asked me that question if you would have said, hey Can you come my mom to get me out of the situation? They would have said no, okay. No, we're not doing that. Let's go to the police. Let's go to the police Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna get you out of this situation, but let's go to the authorities All right, and and we're gonna do this the right way. He did not Nick did not say that You know, he he has these dark fantasies. He wanted to do it It was a fantasy. He lived out and he's paying the consequences for that So with that being said, you know, it's neither here nor there for in my opinion What I think the situation it's just it is what it is All right, Greg, I'm gonna have chase go first chase. What do you got? What I'll quit then I'll quit it. I'll quit it All right, I'll go ahead anyway No, one one thing I love about this clip is that It shows the power of statement analysis And she says I wish it would have never happened this way And I thought this was interesting. I think this is showing us escape versus death Escape versus death And I think gypsy's words suggest that she was looking for a way out of her mother's grip And I don't think necessarily aiming for her mother's death And she might have hoped uh for a way to maybe break free from the abuse that she was facing And now regretting that her freedom came at a high and maybe a violent cost That stood out to me as the number one thing uh in this video. Greg. What do you got? Yeah, I will disagree a little bit on this one because when she does that see that shoulder It is more pronounced than any other shoulder shrug She's done in the entire time. She says I wish it wouldn't happen that way And the other reason I would say is because I think she shopped I think she went after a guy she she had other dating profiles and all this other stuff Was sending pictures to all these guys But this guy that she chose that she surprised did this you mean the 400 year old vampire split personality guy You're surprised that he did something crazy. Come on.  What is he talking about? So she's on a dating site She runs into more than one person but she finds this guy and she starts talking to this guy and he tells her He's got one of these personalities who's victor the 400 year old vampire And so she now courts and brings victor into the business.  It's just Very instant to see it So she's got this vampire guy that makes stuff to start to fall on deaf ears for me Look, she can be recovered. She can be a you know, a a person who has Turned into the most wonderful person in the world But still has to lie about some of these key points and that's what I think we're seeing here I think she cultivated a persona for this guy and she shot for somebody she could throw away that was a cut out If you don't believe that listen to her word pattern changes and all that shift When she gets to it's not like it's a sympathetic kind of a situation She says a whole lot of words.  But yeah, I mean It doesn't matter if you've got to rebrand yourself And you've got to talk about the horrible thing you did It's dangerous territory. So there's a chance he could be in prison for the next 400 years Unless he's made to go into the courtyard at sunrise But he has to remember he's got split personality has to be in the vampire personality when the sun comes up, I guess Mark, what do you get? Uh, yeah, so a lot of control on this one. We've got some some epic Steepling and and you know, this is a very controlled gesture. It's almost messed it up there It's so it's so hard to do for for my little brain. So we're still waiting on Hannah to do it. Yeah, exactly Exactly. Yeah, she has she has she got there yet as she developed her steepling reflex as yet not there How does not there yet? We await the steepling reflex to kick in Uh, so so there she is steepling a lot of control there, you know, I acknowledge that I'm the reason for that um Like you were saying gregs sympathetic for that type of situation Which doesn't and and that's put forward because the interviewer has said well, he came across quite sympathetically Now, I don't think she likes that at all. She reaches for the water There's a lot of adapters that go on there. I don't think that's the story She's after is him being a sympathetic character here Um, I get your idea there greg about her shopping for somebody there. Let me Put another idea forward What if she was shopping But she didn't expect it to go that far And in fact somebody takes control of it and takes it way further than she wanted to control it and once again She's not in control of this Situation and now there's a huge amount of animosity for this person who took it too far and once again She's in the wheelchair has zero control of the situation and this is something she actually wanted some agency Over and so she doesn't want sympathy for this guy Because she's gone back and she's done the work of accountability. She knows that through this crime She did other things and she can take accountability for that and Has he done the work of accountability around that and therefore she is that um, she has uh She has the high ground On him Right now and she wants people to know she has a higher moral ground Than him. He took over. He did the act. She didn't do the murder. He's the murderer She's not Scott, what are you gonna miss one? What she asked him to kill her mother Yeah, okay, well that that's where my theory falls down horrifically Right Well the single shoulder shrug like you guys were talking about is back and when she talks about nick Her cadence slows down as well with all that So it's almost it sounds like she's she's asking her Alexa one of those Complicated questions about you know, how many pennies go into a million dollars and things like that because it slows down It's in these little chunks of information as she talks about this guy And she does a lot of that up talk a lot everything ends up in a question Also, you know, like it's like if you're talking to Greg and you say excuse me, sir your facial expression It's scaring that busload of children Like that which like as that vocal fry gets on your nerves chase That gets on there's another thing that happens that it gets it crawls all over me Which i'm i'm hoping nobody else caught you probably did but you might not you decided not to say anything about it But i'll i'll point it out here in a few minutes But what i found interesting is the dramatic change from confidence to being unsure what she's talking about when she's talking about Nick's situation So for me that was a big You know, this isn't an interrogation So you can't go dive any with a bunch of questions and stuff and you don't want to get up and leave or something Or break that groove you've got going since they're getting along But that's a little bit odd to me Then when she steeples and she and like you're you're saying mark she she says i acknowledge i'm Acknowledging the reason for that that up talk again And she says all of that super slow and then she continues goof around with her finger You know with her index finger that's sort of reserved for someone who's who's really having a problem Being confident they'll do this a lot of times just see a kid when when they when something's wrong They'll play with their hands and they'll find one finger and they'll pull around on that So that's what we're seeing there as well. So she she doesn't like this subject from all Everything we're seeing from her behavior Well, we would see her I would see that as someone who didn't like talking about that. She's really uncomfortable with it. Her answers are as She's not as equipped with an answer of where the Ready with an answer and she is for the other stuff for that She may not have been expecting it. I have no idea But I don't think she I don't think she likes that one at all and It sounds like she's blaming nick for not correcting her when she was Suggesting that he kill her when she said all these other people would have said no, I don't do it You know call the police or whatever. So it sounds like she's blaming him So maybe that's that's the the part that that's missing out of this for me anyway All right, it's all I got bregg. It's it's uh, henry the second asking for the archbishop of canterbury to be killed Yeah, and they're going no, I didn't I didn't mean it who who will rid me of this troublesome priest and then they go They kill the guy and it's like oh I was I need I didn't really mean that. Yeah, I know exactly Yeah, well the whole idea of bringing the 400-year-old vampire into your house But I think what you saw that she's like got him. There it is I think you know, let's see. I got my little qualification list. No matter I got a qualification list.  I'm rifling through people and I see 400-year-old vampire. Oh, that's a guy That's that's what anybody starts talking about split personalities.  Yeah, so I'm not defending the mother by any stretch. I'm just saying yeah I think she might have been shopping for some help Yeah One of those tape replays One thing you've been very open about is Your relationship with nick you mentioned the abuse you mentioned just kind of You know some of his dark desires Something that really bothered me when I was watching the act is he comes across a little sympathetic towards the end They highlight his autism Do you have any thoughts about that or and despite what nick did to you and your mother? Do you have any empathy for him being in prison and what he has gone through? Um, you know, I think that we both like him and I both have a lot of regrets Um, you know, obviously I wish that this would have never happened this way now for him specifically Um, you know, I did my time.  Um I acknowledge that I am the reason for that however I don't feel either that It's a situation where it's a sympathetic type of situation Okay, and I I mean The reason why I say that is because In my past relationships, I've had two relationships since I've been incarcerated And each one of my exes and even my husband is like baby If you would have asked me that question If you would have said hey, can you come my mom to get me out of the situation? They would have said no, okay. No, we're not doing that. Let's go to the police. Let's go to the police Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna get you out of this situation, but let's go to the authorities All right, and and we're gonna do this the right way. He did not Nick did not say that You know, he he has these dark fantasies. He wanted to do it It was a fantasy. He lived out and he's paying the consequences for that So with that being said, you know, it's neither here nor there for in my opinion What I think of the situation.  I still yeah, I still suffer from you know PTSD and trauma Um, I keep reliving this one nightmare over and over again and it's tied to that night It's tied to the house. Are you able to share that? Um, so yeah, and I've had actually two nightmares that reoccur a lot Um, so the first one my therapist said is attributed to the guilt that I feel for not reaching out to other people Um to help me out Um, so the first one that I have is I have a cell phone. I'm I'm in my in my dream I'm holding a cell phone and I'm trying to call my dad and the number for some reason I can't get through to him the number doesn't work the phone is turned off or whatever it be I can't get through to him and I have that nightmare again and again and again And then the other one is about that night and um, I keep on going back into that house and just feeling very frightened And you know, the murder just happens again and again and again in my mind like I'm not I'm free physically But I'm not free from the trauma. Yeah, you obviously have regret, right? So looking back Is there something you would have done different to Protect yourself and ultimately save your life, you know This all started as a child like as a toddler So I grew up in a household where my mother said that She had magical powers and she'd put a voodoo hex on me if I ever tried to leave You know, my mother suffered from a lot of mental illness She was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia So, um, you know, my mom used to say that she heard voices and saw shapes and things like that So, you know, for me, I think the regret goes back so much further than the crime I wish that even as a little girl, I would have maybe even said something like mommy hears voices You know and just started telling people telling people, uh, you know, some of the smaller things that was going on Maybe if even if it didn't make sense to me, right, you know, just kind of make those comments All right, mark. What do you got? Yeah, what have I got? What what video are we doing? Hang on seven? Yes, okay. Yes um Where is it six? Oh, no, it is seven. It is seven. Okay. It is seven. All right. All right Yeah, therapy. So bringing an authority here therapist says that that she has feelings of guilt Um, so and so there is an authority that she's bringing in to say that she is Suffering here. I I don't doubt that she may well be suffering. I don't doubt that she may well have guilt But again, it it's quite a it's potentially a very conscious move to bring in some kind of authority figure to say look It's proved. Don't even question it. Um Nice, uh double uh reoccurring nightmares nice double finger wagging on that baton gestures there to make sure that She is suffering. She has two nightmares And therefore we shouldn't question that she feels Some kind of not not remorse not responsibility. We haven't got any of that so far Maybe some accountability but for stuff that happened before that But uh that she feels some suffering Around this chase. What are you going this one? Yeah, I I agree with you and Look, I just want to talk about the difference between a few things telling the truth believing in what you say very different things and then marketing And one of the ways I've always heard marketing describe it is most of the truth well told And maybe that's what we're seeing here I think we're seeing that third option and the difference between this and deception is that these statements She's making her mostly honest Probably worked out in a therapist office somewhere instead of a lawyer's office and also they're not designed to deceive and manipulate and That speaks a lot to me and she seems to be More open than what I would initially assume I opened the videos in Dropbox this morning. I was like, okay.  She's gonna be really locked down She's not gonna talk about any any insecurities or any flaws. It's the opposite We're seeing the opposite of that here. Just surprising scott All right when she's talking about reliving nightmare We see five times we see micro expressions and there it's up two of them. It's three contempt and two of anger So I thought that was really interesting Which makes sense because she's talking about something horrific that happened to her And then as well that single shoulder shrug comes back that thing's returned and that lets us know that she's She's not sure about what she's unsure about what's going on about what she's talking about so Every time she talks about the details of what happened that night So that's where that thing starts popping up because she's she wants to talk about it because she's not sure Maybe she's not sure about how much she should information she should give out Maybe she got away with that got out earlier just by the skin of her teeth And she's trying to watch her mouth to make sure she doesn't say something that gets her put back in the pokey So and then we're seeing those thumbs steeple like that when the woman asks her a question And she answers we see those thumbs go up and she's confident about talking about the the dream she had So there's no problem there I think she actually had those dreams and all that because we're seeing those those thumbs as she's talking about that And then she's back to her baseline Just behaving like the rest of that interview. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'm going to keep it really short. You guys covered it all except I'm going to endorse what mark said about her bringing in authority if you want to know Whether she's doing it intentionally or it's something else It's very clear because she moves around a lot in the chair when she says it And then she locks her fingers and starts to adapt Immediately as soon as she says that so mark. I agree with you. She intentionally brought this in now Is that good or bad?  Yeah, I still suffer from PTSD and trauma I keep reliving this one nightmare over and over again, and it's tied to that night It's tied to the house. Are you able to share that? So yeah, and I've had actually two nightmares that reoccur a lot So the first one my therapist said is attributed to the guilt that I feel for not reaching out to other people Um to help me out So the first one that I have is I have a cell phone. I'm I'm in my in my dream I'm holding a cell phone and I'm trying to call my dad And the number for some reason I can't get through to him the number doesn't work The phone is turned off or whatever it be I can't get through to him and I have that nightmare again and again and again um, and then the other one is about that night and um I keep on going back into that house and just feeling very frightened And you know, the murder just happens again and again and again in my mind like I'm not I'm free physically, but I'm not free from the trauma. Yeah, you obviously have regret, right? So looking back Is there something you would have done different to Protect yourself and ultimately save your life, you know This all started as a child like as a toddler So I grew up in a household where my mother said that She had magical powers and she'd put a voodoo hex on me if I ever tried to leave You know, my mother suffered from a lot of mental illness She was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia So, um, you know, my mom used to say that she heard voices and saw shapes and things like that So, you know for me, I think the regret goes back so much further than the crime I wish that even as a little girl, I would have maybe even said something like mommy hears voices You know and just started telling just started telling people You know some of the smaller things that was going on Maybe if even if it didn't make sense to me, right, you know, just kind of make those comments Uh, you started this conversation you were referring to other interviews and um that one interviewer just calling you a murder Yes, do you feel that way about yourself or do you feel more As if that you're a survivor. Um, I don't I don't associate myself as a murderer because if you think about it, yes I had a part to play in it I Requested I asked Nick for help and how that all conversation started was You know, he was saying that he would protect me from anyone. I said anyone he said yes I said even my mother he said yes And then the the plan kind of formed from there But he's the one that did the actual kill Not me.  That's why he's in trouble to begin with because he's the one that did it So when they say I'm a murderer, I don't identify as that. I'm I'm I'm an accessory. Absolutely. I'll take oh, yes I did that. I am an accessory to murder. However, that doesn't define me.  Let me re re-bent myself. Give me a chance Yeah, because before I didn't even have that chance to begin with So let me show you guys who I am as a person before you just start slapping labels on me All right, mark. What do you got? Uh, yeah, so she she puts forward this idea of if you think about it Like like I maybe haven't been thinking about it before. So, okay I'll I'll have a good think about it then. So if if I think about it She says she says I don't identify As a as a murder. Well, that doesn't mean that you're not a murderer state of Missouri does. Yeah, I mean the state of Missouri I think you're I think you're a murderer I mean, I get that you don't identify that and I just went away and I thought about it And I came back having thought as you asked that no, I mean you're still Your your identity under the state of Missouri is one of a murderer That's why you were in prison as far as I understand it and yes, you can want to identify as something else But that doesn't mean that I have to join in just doesn't and the state of Missouri Clearly isn't going to join in on that one either. So I did think about that one So there's a there's a logic here that says I don't identify with that and you know, if you think about it I did not do the actual kill So again, if you didn't do the actual, well, that's a beautiful phrasing there the actual kill Then she goes on to say that I I aren't kill Again interesting wording there doesn't mean you won't or you didn't I mean just you can't interesting uh So and then beautiful biggest biggest change that I've seen here is that Honal change there on Uh reinvent myself and I think it kind of nails down the rebranding exercise that that We feel may well be going on here and she marks that out for us Reinventing herself and so yeah, she really does have to have to Start to tell us a a story chase a piece of marketing Which in my mind is some but nor not all of the facts Put forward in a certain order and dimension to get a certain result out of the market and so and so I think the story is is that You will not identify me as a murderer anymore. I'm something else and um, and I've I've rethought about everything and I'm not the person who did the murder I'm a very different High ground to them a chase. What do you go on that one?  You pointed out right after this I think she might have been trying to say I didn't it's a strange phrase But I don't think it's worth a lot of attention because there's I mean there's Not a single other behavioral marker that we look for tied up here that I see with the statement I think her use of the word identify is just her ability to instantly absorb whatever is popular on tiktok Like her voice the way she speaks and all of that So maybe she's just soaking that up and I don't know But then she says let me reinvent myself. Uh, give me a chance And this is really truthful and surprisingly honest and vulnerable for her to ask and I think most people her age Would be way too concerned with looking like they're perfect and flawless to say anything honest and real like this Or maybe most people similar to her behavioral pattern having just gotten out of prison Much less to literally be vulnerable and then ask the world for a chance to actually ask the world for a chance I'm still having trouble with the severity of the vocal fry, but it's something i'm gonna work on I'm gonna ignore it as much as I can I don't hate her at all But I do hate the vocal fry That we're hearing and I bet her real voice is way better Scott you're the audio guy. What do you got? All right, mark. I think you nailed it when she says I don't identify as that Those right there when you hear somebody say I don't identify as you got to tread lightly around them Because that can get you canceled if you go ahead and say you are this or you are that you got to be super careful So she's she's using that To protect herself so because you're right. She's hearing you're right She's hearing that stuff on the internet. She's here on tick tock So when you when people start talking about how I don't identify as this or I didn't identify as that That's that common nomenclature for Stand back. Here's what I think right or wrong. Whatever you think is right or wrong. Here's what I think I think this is no different than that teacher who got her student to kill her husband Remember that one? She was like an eighth grade teacher or something and she talked her student into killing her husband The same type of thing She worked nick and she worked the court system and now she's working these people to believe she's innocent and hadn't really Not much to do with it or at least she didn't execute the kill like you guys were talking about a few minutes ago In other words, she found a loaded gun that wanted to shoot something and she aimed it at her mother and it shot her mother Even though he stabbed her So that's what we're dealing with here. This is not going to be popular in the comments. And you know what? I don't care This is what I really think Greg, what do you got? Well, I'm going to take a step further. So if you if you're not popular I'm going to be really not popular because I agree with you a hundred percent I think she almost came out and said what I would have done if I were in her shoes She's again.  I don't know what it is I would tear that apart. I'd unravel it and just crawl all over her with that and start taking the senate structure part So let's back up But I think the problem is what she doesn't know is these people are being friendly And so she becomes more bold and the way she talks I think is starting to come out now I'm going to get close this with When I finish telling you what I'm seeing with why I don't so what?  You hit it. I requested I ask She's trying to request that she's putting that in and then she surprised the guy actually did it Come on. We're back to the 400 year old vampire. She's so socially unaware. I think as a person She's not been in the situation where you could get away with talking a certain way And I think the male interviewer senses that she's Treading on something very dangerous here. Watch his feet. Watch his blink rate.   You're a theater guy There's a line from oliver in in this movie I mean in the in this interview in oliver. There's a song. I forget what it's called. I do anything for you You know the song And there's a kid in the in the one where the kid says I do anything for you. Would you fight my bill? Anything and so it reminds me of that every time I hear it I'm watching this thing and her voice goes to child light when she says anything by anybody Guys that she is telegraphing how much manipulation was going My opinion is we're seeing an embedded confession and we're seeing her saying what actually happened Again, now I'll close it with this So what our mother tortured her for how long so what? That's all I got One of those tape replays Uh, you started this conversation.  Um, I don't I don't associate myself as a murderer because if you think about it. Yes, I had a part to play in it I requested I asked Nick for help and how that all conversation started was You know, he was saying that he would protect me from anyone. I said anyone. He said yes I said even my mother he said yes And then the the plan kind of formed from there But he's the one that did the actual kill Not me.  That's why he's in trouble to begin with because he's the one that did it So when they say i'm a murderer, I don't identify as that. I'm i'm i'm an accessory. Absolutely. I'll take oh, yes I did that. I am an accessory to murder. However, that doesn't define me.  Let me re re-bent myself. Give me a chance Yeah, because before I didn't even have that chance to begin with So let me show you guys who I am as a person before you just start slapping labels on me Just one more thing mark. This is klempfandango. Can you hear me? Yes? I can hear you klempfandango What have you got? Well, here's what I've got. Um, well, I mean it's fascinating really because we are always fascinated with people who kill their mothers Uh, it's it's one of the things you're not meant to do and so an extraordinary story I think she's putting on top of that this cinderella tale of inside Uh, the the the potential monster which we shouldn't see her as there is a princess Story in there somebody changed But but where it seems to go wrong is she doesn't take any responsibility for the murder so so as a story told and as a piece of rebranding There's just one of the mechanisms isn't really Addressed now to address that mechanism would be kind of hard work And so she's doing an easier piece of work of trying to rebrand and just steer around The main thing that everybody's interested in which is Did you really want to kill her and how does that feel like mean? That's what everybody's interested in is what does it really feel like to want to kill your mother? Like what does that feel like what happens? That's the fascination and that's what she's steering around And and I think look I mean I think you know, she'll be able to keep us Hanging on for that moment until she maybe doesn't deliver that and we get bored Uh of uh, so I hope she makes great choices as she moves forward in the world Chase, what do you think? I hope she writes a book And I hope it does well But uh, I'm not seeing a whole lot of deception markers that we normally see in these kinds of videos Which I thought was shocking. I think this shows that when people think of behavior analysts or body language experts They default to line detection But truth detection Emotion detection comfort detection and I think in my opinion most importantly shame detection Are way more important Skills to have than deception detection if you really specialize in learning how to see the truth The deception stuff will automatically jump out at you and you want to spend a long time just deep in negativity As promised, let's talk about munchausens There's a difference between malingering and munchausens Malingering is about material reward munchausens is about emotional reward only one of those Is a psychiatric diagnosis Both of them have very Extremely similar behaviors though It's the motive and motivation Uh that makes the difference. So maybe we're seeing Something else greg Yes, what we did see is sorrow. We did see when she's talking about her mother We saw sorrow when they asked her do you miss your mother? Yes. We saw sorrow. We saw remorse in a person I think I doubt she'll watch this but if she did I would what I would say to her is just say look Yeah, I killed my mother if you manipulated the guy to get it happened. Yeah, I did that was my only way out It's the only way I understood to get out You're almost saying it anyway and I don't think most people would feel Horrible toward you. Yes, it's horrible. Someone had to die But at the same time It's also equally horrible at this child this Person that you're supposed to protect You have tortured To the point that it's normal for them to be deceptive I think she does a very good job of saying what deception is in me and i'm trying not to do it I'm you know, I'm rehabilitated and I think all of us would reward that into your point chase If she writes a book I hope she makes a ton of money So her life gets easier because she's had a hell on earth in the beginning and really a horrible way to go Scott Yeah, I agree with it. I think she did uh, she came up with a plan She said I've got to get somebody to do this for me She went in there and found somebody the perfect candidate for that And like I said before she found a gun that wanted to shoot something and she pointed at her mother and shot it Now having said that What else would you expect? She's been brought up by a con. She's been brought up by a mother who's psychologically unstable And so she learned from her mother To have turned out as quote-unquote normal as she looks right now That's that blows my mind She can sit down talk to anybody and carry on a conversation and think about things in the future And how I want to do this and I want to do that and find somebody and fall in love with them It's Blows my mind because of the way she was raised by a monster anybody don't do their child like that I'm not yeah, they deserve it. I I think the mother completely had that coming or that's going to be popular or not I don't care again, but But at the same time her mother's the one that turned her into that Her mother's the one that gave her the tools to be able to think that way Her mother's the one that okayed all this horrific stuff that was finally dawning on her She got a little bit older and said you know something all right about this I'm looking at the everybody else's normal and and and she probably googled it and said Leukemia or the cancer was you don't get this with that What's going on here? And it probably dawned on her that her mother's been playing her like that and using her So I don't blame her a bit. You know, I don't blame I think what other route could she take to get out of that? How else could she get out just keep playing along? No, you got to get out somehow because that has to come to an end at some point and The point it would come to an end with is where the mother would have to off her I would be under the impression because she's built up this lie this lie this lie this lie And the child isn't dead So the child at some point no matter what the age is going to have to Pass away to make everything okay for the mother from what she said so far to keep her ego intact. So she doesn't Um have a problem with her ego and maybe off herself So I think she I think she in her eyes. She did the right thing.  That's my opinion. I could be wrong I think that's what happened. And if you want to come for me the comments, come on. I don't I don't care anymore I don't care I feel as if this is another good ending. We'll see you next time