Hi, I'm Gene Bergman. I'm a Ward 2 City Councilor in Burlington, and I want to welcome you to this month's edition of Burlington Progressives TV. This is a monthly show that we've got and what we try to do is explore community issues, the issues that are facing the city, our people, our environment, and really sort of get a chance to talk about things that are not part of the political conversation. We've had community members talk about police oversight and also state issues like the tax fairness that we've got in the state or the lack thereof. We've had politicians talk about the housing crisis and progressive taxation and this month what we're going to talk about is justice in the workplace and in particular the union struggle around the UVM Medical Center's support staff. First of all, I want to welcome you guys, Jacob and Lou and Heather. Thank you really very much for joining me on this. I want to frame this because, you know, Burlington Progressives are part of a progressive party, and so it's a political organization.  And the reason is because our party is fundamentally concerned with economic justice and with the rights of workers. So I just want to read for the folks there and I will like read excerpts from our principles. So you understand why this is important to me and as a former union member of the GCIU in a failed attempt to get a contract with the Burlington Free Press many decades ago, my heart is with you all. So the purpose of the progressive party is to promote economic, social and environmental justice and sustainability through electoral and other democratic political activities like this, like your union drive. Democracy requires empowering people not only in government but also in the workplace, schools and in the overall economy. Society's wealth should not be concentrated in the hands of a few and a wealthy minority should not control the conditions under which we live. Here's one that I think is really pertinent. Collective organizing is essential for people of low and moderate income to attain economic justice. Everyone is entitled to decent work at a living wage in a safe working environment. I'm going to stop there because this has gone on long enough. We've got a few more there. But all of these, to my understanding, are things that you guys are working on every single day in your work lives and because it never spills, doesn't stop in your home with your families, with your extended families. Again, I want to thank you so much and I'm about done with my yapping. But I'd love for you guys to tell us who you are and what your job titles are but also what you do. Because people need to know what you do and understand that. So I don't really care who it starts. So my name is Jacob Berkowitz. I'm a staffing office specialist at UVMMC. Basically my job is to staff the hospital which can be a challenge. I work with 15 plus inpatient nursing units and I've been doing the job for almost three years. 15, that's a lot. And I'm in charge of all the nurses that work with those units essentially. All the LNAs, licensed nursing assistants and the clinical patient safety attendants. So there's a resource pool that I'm in charge of to try and fill the plethora of gaps. Wow, wow. We'll go into the challenges. I believe you'll tell me about the number of calls that you all make, for example. I think it's pretty amazing. Absolutely. Thanks Jacob. Hi, I'm in operational support. Your last name, Lou, is Lou Levec. That's correct, Lou Levec. There we have it. I'm an operational support specialist. So I work on the outpatient side. So that means that I am the main trainer of a doctor's office. So in a doctor's office you might have a scheduler and a medical assistant and then you'll have a supervisor and so I'm sort of middle management between the two. But I'm in a unique position in the sense that I'm boots on the ground and also having a hand in helping the next group of workers come in. My day looks like taking the referrals that your providers send to us and helping get them to the right scheduler so that you can have your... I work in neurology, so a subspecialty appointment, something like that. Well, that's like seriously important. Having been referred to a variety of different UVM MC facilities, if that referral doesn't make it there, it's not really a good thing. And support staffing is really integral to getting those steps through the process. They just doesn't happen automatically. We'd love it to be that way. The AI is a whole nother show that we'll have, but human beings are essential unless they're going to... Great. Heather, hi. Hi, my name is Heather Bauman and I am a direct care provider as a phlebotomist. What is a phlebotomist? I'm the person who tries to make one of the worst experiences or most fearful experiences at the hospital pleasant for people. I draw blood. And that means we work in one of the three outpatient clinics at the Fannie Allen at One South Prospect or at the clinic within the hospital or sometimes I work inpatient like I did this morning. Working at the clinic sites means, you know, greeting the patients who show up. Like clinics where? So there's one just across the street from the main hospital. There's one in the hospital and then there's one over in the medical office building next to Fannie Allen. Okay. And we see hundreds of patients today, many of whom first thing in the morning have been fasting and again not excited and the hanger is real. And then also in the hospital we usually have about 200 draws spread out over the five buildings of the inpatient structure that we are supposed to get six of us usually within an hour. Well, I have to say and, you know, medical privacy is personal. So I am able to say myself that the last time I got blood drawn at the Gosbrion unit was an amazing experience. It was great. It took no time to get in and out and it was painless. And then I got to go ski at a powder day. So it was like a beautiful, beautiful thing. So thank you. And although the Vermont Progressive is a statewide party, this is a Burlington show and the medical center is in Burlington.  You live where? In the old North End. And Lou? I live in Colchester. And Heather? I live just south of town in Sherlock. You know, that is actually really important, right? Because this is an issue that relates to everywhere all around us. We have this like a, what's the, I'm going to call it a euphemism, but of the hospital itself, it's like a trauma center. Trauma one center.  Right. And there are, and we're going to go to slides now. How many people are in your union? I think it's over 2,300. Yeah. And the hospital severely understaffed. So if we were fully staffed, it would be momentous. And it already is. As somebody who was part of a bargaining unit of about 200, your 10 times, the more than 10 times that amount, that is a lot. So here we are. We see your logo there.  Yeah, absolutely. So like you just touched on, we're over 2,000 of UVM MC support staff, which includes phlebotomists like Heather. We have licensed nursing assistants who I work with very closely, environmental services workers who, you know, clean and take care of, take care of the hospital. We have the chefs and, you know, over a hundred other job titles whose work is the backbone of the hospital. So when you talk about how large the union is, it's not just that it's a large amount of people. It's a very diverse amount of people from all different job descriptions. Janitors, building maintenance folks, those folks, people who are repairing things. I mean, I really believe that if, like, you don't have people who are going to clean the bathrooms, you don't have a healthy environment. So, you know, it seemed like it's on the bottom, but it's just on one side of a spectrum to the other. So all those folks are in union. They are the plate passers. So if you're in the hospital and you want a meal or you need a specialized diet, those are the folks that bring it to you. Make sure it's hot. Make sure it tastes good. Any other things about, maybe we can get that slide up again in case, or the other one where we said who we are? There we go. So you mentioned about the short staffing and stuff. And we'll get into that in detail some, but 2200 workers and you won with an 86%. How did that happen? It was definitely a lot of work. That's for sure. Our election was in January and we had been working for around a year before that to sort of organize, get all of our stuff together and get the word out, because people have been upset for a long time and have been overworked in short staff for longer than just the pandemic, but the pandemic certainly exacerbated that. And so 86%, especially for a support staff union, which are notoriously difficult to form, it's not just a landslide, it's a mandate. We have a significant chunk of support from a lot of very tired folks. But it did take a lot of work. Well, clearly a credit to the organizing team and the union itself and to all the other people and they know that would support you because this is not as somebody who's been through it. This is not an easy thing to do. Totally worth it though. Totally worth it. Absolutely. Tell us about, you know, like why it's worth it. Why it was, why it is worth it just sort of on that really personal basis. I can say one thing about just the start of it. I actually worked at the election and I've worked at elections for years. This is my first union election and I have never been so nervous sitting and people are casting their ballots and getting very anxious and the mandate from the National Labor Board not to speak to anyone and not to bring anything up, but to see middle-aged, older adults coming in and then their children coming in right after them to see people who needed support with the translation of their ballots. You know, it was a really moving experience and so the reason that it's so worth it is we've come together, you know, we raise our heads in the hall now. There's a pretty intense cast system in the hospital but we stand a little taller and we keep our eyes up and if we're not being seen by others, that's okay, we see each other now. Yeah, I was in the cafeteria's mac and cheese day today and I just sort of had my head down because I was thinking about mac and cheese and I looked up and the food, the line chef was also wearing one of these and she goes, nice shirt, nice shirt and it was a good little moment.  This is not something, it's a major problem in the country and you're at the vanguard of making sure that working people have dignity and respect. So there are other slides. Let's see what the next slide that we can chat about will be. So Jacob, you talked about and Lou, you talked about short staffing but tell us more. So I'm in a unique position in the staffing office where I not only get to hear the stories of people being short staff but I see the numbers and all the data that goes along with it. So, like I said earlier, I'm responsible for filling all the gaps and I have a couple of snapshots of data that I think are pretty telling as far as just like the impact of what we've been going through and how it's been getting worse over time. So I had a couple of graphs that myself and one of my staffing office colleagues put together. So these are calls that you make? Yes, so our office... Oh yeah, so we're talking like the amount of calls that goes out per day, per shift is extraordinary for recruitment to fill those holes by putting out you know, urgent pay, you know, trying to get people in for double pay otherwise the work, whether it's nurses, LNAs, etc. just doesn't get done. And as you can see, outside of a two month blank period during our infamous power or infamous outage with the cyber attack. Even through the pandemic it's been getting steadily worse as far as the amount of calls we send out per day. So the number of calls the shorter the staffing is, the bigger the gap is, that's a reflection of that? Yes, absolutely. So yeah, a lot of those calls are to support staff particularly LNAs who, I mean you'll talk to any LNA that works at the hospital they'll tell you that they get three, four, five, sometimes more calls per day to where like their mailboxes just from messages from me pretty much. Saying we need you, can you come in? So what is the call? Basically, you know, we have a staffing need from this time to this time, you know, essentially please come in for urgent pay. Sorry, tell your little kid that mom is coming or dad has got to leave after dinner because there's this really urgent emergency that we've got to do. Give him a kiss for me. Absolutely. And tell them that without the urgent pay we can't make ends meet. Right? Because it's not really about wanting, I mean it is about wanting to help your coworkers and wanting to help the community but it's also that our wages are so low that without these urgent pay shifts we can't make it. That's really fascinating. And on that, I think, or the things with money, I mean this is an institution which pays its upper executives a lot. That was very clear when the nurses went on strike. I actually, I retired on a Friday and on Sunday I went to a strike support meeting, a community strike support meeting on Monday. I walked a picket line and went down because I had worked for the city for a long time and then went back to the council, to the city council to thank them for having appointed me for 20 years and to ask them to join me on the picket line. So that experience was pretty strong for me so I know that the upper management does not underpaid if you've got any sense of propriety. Yeah, it's public information. Check out ProPublica and the tax forms are there and the latest tax forms are from 2021 and it is it's terrible. It's disgusting.  If we can get that slide up that so this is the this is the shift and it just gives you more data for comes more data on what you're facing on the floors but if we could see a slide that relates to to the cost of living we can get we can get back to we can get back to that but let's let's look since we've we're talking about money right now. Are you talking about the one that has how much each person is expected? Well, let's let's start with let's start with this. Let's start with this one. This graph is essentially just an indicator that wages and inflation have been on the rise or rather when adjusted for inflation wages have been stagnant versus what the actual bottom line is the wages that you guys have been getting paid. Well, just in general this is like the employment cost index for for private industry just across the country. So this is just working people. We know that this is a problem it's a problem with people trying to pay their taxes in Burlington. We just had this fight on Monday tried to lower the tax rate unsuccessfully but so this is a this is a problem that is across the board. So that's what that shows and yeah, I think even more pertinent is this next slide that maybe goes a little bit more in depth to like recent memory. One thing that I've consistently said to my colleagues is these are the inflation numbers of the last 23 months or 29 months or 29 months rather where inflation has been 13 percent and the wage increases for support staff have not even been close to that. In fact. So do we have a slide that goes directly to we have an average wage increase year over year of 3 percent 3 percent. Yes, which is significantly less than 13 percent. Exactly. In essence, we've been taking pay cuts throughout the pandemic and the administration would probably prefer if we continue to take pay cuts but the sense that I'm getting from my colleagues is that we're done taking pay cuts for the hospital. Good. Good. I mean, I'm proud of what the the city did in terms of our unionized workforce and making raises and it was hard but it was the right thing to do and so, you know you just have to do that austerity kills and that means paying people what they need and so there was the next slide that was up there around so this was a survey that you did. Yeah, we we put out a survey right after our election to sort of capture what was most important to folks so we could focus our proposals and down at the bottom here it says numbers based on the 641 surveys completed after this question was added so about halfway through the survey we added the this question of which expenses do we currently struggle to afford and it's staggering that you know the three like the two basic things housing and nourishment over you know over 50% of folks. Yeah, yeah 70% are having a hard time paying roof over their head roof over their head Jacob presented the slide at our first in person bargaining team meeting it was about 60 of us and we met over at the Fletcher Free Library and he put the slide up and there were audible gasps from the 60 and then someone raised their hands and said I have a colleague who sleeps in their car and all these hands went up to indicate that in every department we have colleagues who are housing insecure and who are you know showering at work are sleeping in unsafe places you know truly upsetting and this is again a private industry but you know it's supposed to be providing care to the community and doesn't feel like care and there that pain is not being shared right? I mean the CEO got a big job no doubt but not sharing that pain in any stretch of the imagination does not have to worry about paying his rent or his and I mean the 2200 people and you were talking about this in terms of the election these are older people these are older people these are people with families and kids these are young folks so there's this range and they own homes or they rent I think that you know there's a certain generation that owns homes in our generation I mean yeah look at that face same but like there's no way we can you know working at this largest institution there's no way we can conceive of owning a home so a lot of us rent up until recently one of our colleagues many of them drive an hour in outside of Tintin County yeah many many of them do and the rising cost of fuel doesn't help them their expenses yeah yeah yeah and these are folks that haven't just shown up there last week this is not the starting wage right these are people who've been working in these jobs for a long time yeah and have going back to that slide with the flat line yeah of wages it's and I can't remember if there's a slide about this but that is actually one of the problems is there's a real wage compression and so we have people with you know I mean someone spoke the other at one of our bargaining sessions last week about having worked here for 36 years you know and no he's not earning a livable wage after 36 years well we'll go on to to the next slide but I heard a telling when I was negotiating I heard this incredible comment I was telling this to Jacob the other day we were talking about us being underpaid at the free press and I was a production worker making $9 an hour and at the end of the day when we showed them the the compression so to speak and what they were making a lot of money and what other places were were making with other workers and other unionized places were making they just turned us and said what does what we make have to do with what we pay you we pay you what we have to we were not yes I this is this is 30 years I still say this and I would go home as a member of the bargaining team I'd go home crying you know I had a baby at the time yes and so what gives me heart I could not make them pay people I mean I could make them stop taking away benefits which is what they were doing at the time taking away healthcare stuff but but you are hopefully going to show them that okay we're going to make you pay what's fair so what is the this next slide is just again let's talk to us about about this yes so our of our financial based proposals are based on the cost of living and you know I think a lot of people might think particularly our our friends at administration probably would stop at the fact that we'd be asking for you know $25 an hour but unless you're you know a single person with no children you know which I would probably say the majority are not it's like it doesn't even cover the cost of living to be honest it's it's the only reasonable thing to ask for is what covers the cost of living anything below that is like what are we even doing here okay so we can get into the you know some more of what you're asking for and stuff and we could go through the slides but like with the with the staffing shortage are they aware as the administration aware of the problems and you know what do they what do they say and what is your response to what they say so they are very well aware the numbers that they see I could tell you personally that directors of the hospital see my staffing plans personally they see all the gaps they see all of it they hear the stories they're just not prioritizing correctly and so they know it and they're just that's just not part of their priorities and you're now raising with them the need to change their priorities absolutely and to what it looks like from a patient care perspective and I think Heather could definitely point to this the phlebotomists are also very understaffed I mean we're currently operating with the staff of I believe 38 people and optimally staffed we should have 30 more you know you know we're understaffed when you come to one of our clinics for a blood draw and you have to wait an hour an hour and a half in the morning you know to get in and haven't helped you if your orders aren't all set if your doctor forgot to you know dot an I or cross a T wait another hour because we have to get through to patient support services and to the lab customer services and have them help us with the orders I mentioned before that we often have 200 patients to be drawn at 6 a.m. with six phlebotomists we're expected to do four draws an hour we're pretty good at our gigs and some of us can do six to eight but there's no way we can get those draws done at 6 a.m. so that the care teams have the results in time for a rounding at 7 or 8 o'clock in the morning which is what they're hoping for we're lucky if we get the 6 a.m. draws done by the time we have a shift change at 1.30 and we often don't today I finished the last 6 a.m. draw at 1.35 I clocked out late I was really lucky I mean you know yeah sometimes you get lucky but most days you you suffer from lower quality care because we don't have the we have the urge to provide it but we don't have the people to help us do it and we've lost a lot of people who can you know take higher paying jobs in other places right so what is the union proposing in terms of wages I mean and the staffing yeah in terms of staffing well one of the things is to make it a livable wage and we are proposing we you know kind of talked about it and we talk about it every week we talk about it in our meetings and we talk about it in our bargaining sessions and you know you say that you know the progresses are a political movement but this is a personal movement for us it is and it is an intersection of the personal and political if they aren't all and so we're looking for ways to make this this job work for people so they can stay and sustain it as a life they're not people are not asking to get rich they're asking to get by and we're looking for ways to support them and living full lives as employees of UVMMC and supporting their neighbors you know and taking care of their community which is really gratifying work yeah yeah we're looking to as Heather said treat our staff like humans one of the things we're really excited about is so we have a colleague named Hari and he shared with us stories of his cultural holidays and right now regardless of your culture or your religious affiliation you sort of go by the you know Judeo-Christian holidays that are established so one of the proposals we're bringing forward is that we employees can designate three days that can be their own they that are their own holidays Hari was talking about where he goes with his family to the elders who bless them and you know wishes for their good fortune in the year coming and why are we you know forcing folks to not work on a day there indifferent about and instead just sort of scheduling them on a day they really need to you know seep in to their lives yeah so we're really excited about that one and you know some of the things that we're doing as well as knowing how how powerful we are as a group even though we're just in bargaining and in the beginning of bargaining 600 of our folks went to these meetings and you know we talked about the basic needs that we are that were being shorted and so there's childcare and food at every bargaining session what can we do to provide for each other people are telling us we're not afraid anymore we're not afraid to lift up our head and you know speak to management it went from whispered conversations over months preparation to speaking out loud and normalizing each other yeah it reminds me of what the Memphis sanitation workers yeah anything to add on and what you're what you're looking what you're looking for how things are are progressing I think things are going you know extremely well as far as the momentum that we have the excitement in the room I think a lot of the most recent proposals that we've made are definitely exciting for folks it's not just about you know the financials though it you know ensuring that we can you know the people taking care of you can take care of themselves is of paramount importance I'd actually just like to quickly share a story about one of my colleagues that I've been working with for some time his name is Alexis Wei Mbengi and he is an LNA one of the resource LNAs I call him one of the hardest working people on the face of the planet I've he constantly has to pick up urgent shifts in order to make ends meet working you know I've seen weeks where he's working almost every single night during during a particular week and I think what my numbers showed earlier is there's often times where LNAs like Alexis are working on their own on a floor meaning that he's responsible for taking care of you know 30 plus patients whereas you know nurses have because of their union contract have you know very set in stone staffing grids that need to be respected so they can take care of their patients appropriately but LNAs and many other job positions that do take care of patients their staffing grids if they have them thrown out the window there's no seriousness with those grids and I think Alexis shared many stories a few weeks ago saying basically that if he's unable to when he's on his own and he's unable to get to a patient who needs to like walk to the bathroom or something along those lines you know they might you know wet themselves because he can't get there in time or he even told us it was very scary it was a night where he was alone on the floor and he told the patient you know to please wait because he has to do all these other things and he couldn't get there in time to bring the patient to the bathroom and they ended up cracking their head open and needed to go to the ICU and that's something that if we had safe staffing with support staff that would be extremely avoidable but these are differences and I think when we say you know when the hospital tries to plead poverty it's like well you know we we can afford it and if anything we can't afford not to stabilize support staffing levels when you think about all the effects that short staffing has over the long term so your proposals are to have those grids and then be enforceable yes and also to have the support staff be a part of the conversation that we've made proposals that there be committees composed of members of the support staff because we're there doing the work we know what it needs to be we're not kidding around we're not looking again to get rich we're just looking to get by and we need some more people doing this job for us to do it well and they their response to date so they haven't they haven't responded to that one yet we've got a proposal forward about that referring to the health and safety of our colleagues in terms of violence that is inflicted upon us by patients and the emergency department is understandably a pretty dangerous place to work we had a colleague Shannon share with us a story of how she you know the violence that has been inflicted by people punched and they asked please that the hospital invest in slash-resistant gear for everyone in their department you know they're very sweet and very precise saying there's nothing slash-proof but could we please have slash-resistant gloves and vests and the hospital came back you know the hospital is you know they really couldn't see fit for doing that it's just too expensive and they weren't sure it could work and a friend from the ed stood up and pointed out that they had been stabbed that very weak while the management was deciding that it wasn't worth it to invest in slash-resistant gear our colleagues are getting sick time the institution should care enough to give you a moment to recover from that they told us that we had misplaced it in our proposal and that they would consider it if it were part of a different proposal but I'm not sure they mean that they came before we gave our wage proposal they gave a wage proposal and it was insulting and infuriating it was extremely low they didn't like it that there were 600 of us in the room who were upset by their proposal and they said that they felt you know menaced or threatened or something like that but we feel pretty under threat ourselves but they did that was also in that moment when their attorney councilman ben told us that he would be rejecting our wage proposal out of hand so they were actually sitting with that and we expect on July 12 the wage does have some differentials in it and does have some urgent pay but really what it does is it is a rising tide and it raises all the boats we want all of our colleagues to be making a living wage and we're not quite there but we're starting everyone at $25 an hour like I said you know those at the top are not having to worry about paying their rent or anything that are on there we're the ones that are right there with everyone has a story of being inpatient in the hospital of needing care and that one receptionist who was so sweet and made sure their insurance was right that's us at the end of the day and we're almost going to close here and ask for some final things on you the principles is that human labor is the key to the creation of wealth and so we challenge the assumed right to derive vast wealth from ownership or position and that means that when you're in those those bodies that you you look like you're taking care of your whole family right and make sure that the littlest and the most vulnerable are taking care of that they're saved first we're almost at the end how can people the community people of good goodwill regardless of political orientation here I'm trying to reach out over the aisle how can they partner with you how can we support you that's a fantastic question so appreciative so on the screen there is a link to us on social media it'll link you to our website there's a petition there that you can sign essentially saying we support you in solidarity and it is these collective voices from inside the hospital from our community that's really going to make these differences we've seen that it works the strength and numbers we are we're here today and we you know plan to keep being visible in the community drive by our honking wave honk at us write letters to the city council but you know show up for us the way we show up for you the way we draw your blood and make sure that there are people on your floor that's what we're asking for okay well every way that I and my my comrades on the council and in the Burlington progressive party can help I know we want to do and I do too so I just want to thank you for taking the time and you got any last word any further last words if not then any buttons guys thank you for having us and thank you for providing this opportunity for us to share our cause because it is a community cause well this is a monthly show and I generally wait to book people depending on these things and so perhaps in July or in August there'll be an issue that you'll want to to have out there and like I said everything that we can do to support you we're all a big family here and solidarity is at the heart of building a decent society and so thank you for standing up not just for yourselves and each other but for all of us thanks good night


You've been out having a good time whether it's with friends or family really whoever just enjoy yourselves All the company there's enjoying themselves whether you're having good food good drinks is good energy and whatever you're doing Everybody is thoroughly Enjoying it and loving it the atmosphere is great but then There's one friend that's there. That's like I want to go home. I don't want to be here anymore and They are just the extreme Vibe killer we've all been there before whether you've been the friends that are enjoying themselves Or you've been that killer and I'm not gonna ask which one you are if that's not important But this is exactly what's going on right now Because it's really seeming like everything is coming together like oh man We we got Odell Beckham junior Baltimore Ravens putting up these cryptic tweets and then Lamar He goes and chimes in and when we hear reports that there's players that really feel like Lamar is gonna sign a long-term deal With the Baltimore Ravens and everything is just seem to be flowing and coming together and then all of a sudden this report Comes out that the 49ers The San Francisco 49ers they checked in on trading for Lamar Jackson And I'm just thinking like man take that somewhere else Don't want to hear none about that right now. Don't be the vibe killer right now We all chilling and join ourselves having a good time getting ready to hopefully celebrate really really soon over the next 24 hours and change But then that came along now it didn't say when the report was from like when the 49ers exactly checked in on Lamar Jackson but this is one of the big reasons why we're hoping that This deal can just get done Because once this deal is done once it's completed once it's finished finalized signed sealed and delivered once it's official We ain't got to worry about none of this stuff no more We ain't got to worry about the old what it could be what could have possibly happened where he could possibly end up where Lamar could possibly go possibly get traded to We ain't got to worry about that no more but When you come to the realization of what it currently is right now You still have to worry about that because nothing's officially official and When you really think about that Since nothing is officially official even if you take out the 49ers because you never know what could happen It can kill your vibe So hopefully The Ravens and Lamar Jackson can get this thing worked out Really really soon think about the 49ers They have been a really good team with some excellent coaching Their coaching really stands out when you think about their team because they are a team that has continued To face injury after injury after injury after injury after injury But they have continued to be aggressive. They went out and traded for Christian McCaffrey and I remember when they made that trade I was like Really him Christian McCaffrey, but then when you think about it, it's like, oh, wait a minute He is a he's a great fit there Because the 49ers are like they remind me of sort of a modernized Patriots team because the Patriots I remember when they were a team where it's like the more you can do the more you can do the more Roles a player can have the better, but the 49ers like the upgraded version of that So they they have players that can do so many different things obviously Debo Hey, he's a good wide receiver, but he's a wide receiver running back. Just he's just a playmaker straight up Kyle use check. Oh That that was a tough one man because I remember really wanting the Ravens to keep him, but it's okay It's all good George kiddo.  So we're Christian McCaffrey. He's somebody that is a running back But he's also a slot wide receiver put him at outside wide receiver till you can move him around and use him to do so many different things And the 49ers found success with it. But then another thing too when we talk about the injuries Trey lands Jimmy Garoppolo Brock Purdy in and The 49ers this seat when you face injuries and again, there's only so much that a coaching staff can do when it comes to injuries But when you face injuries your coaching is put on front street big time Because there's so much additional pressure that gets put on them Because they really got to shine a lot and The 49ers still did that First starting quarterback out Second starting quarterback out He down to mr. Irrelevant The last pick of the draft And he bald He bald Brock Purdy. He bald Gotta give credit to coaching for that So I say all that to say this imagine and I know we don't really want to But imagine if Lamar Jackson was there filthy If Lamar Jackson went there, I was like a 49ers they going back to the Super Bowl straight up they are going back to the Super Bowl and Some people may go man, that sounds crazy They went there with Jimmy Garoppolo and They've been to all these NFC championships and whatnot and then even like last year They were battling with the Eagles, but then injuries happen and they just they couldn't hang anymore But if they got a Lamar Jackson, I would say for sure I will pick them in the NFC straight up like no questions asked like even without a Lamar Jackson They are heavyweight in the NFC, but if you added him to that Would be filthy it would be disgusting both filthy and disgusting in good ways, obviously, but It would be that would be something But it's not looking like or seeming like it's gonna go down, which I don't have a problem with at all But it does make sense when you think about it really does make sense that they would check in on a Lamar Jackson They gave up a lot. They gave up a whole lot to move up and draft Trey Lance But just I don't something has been off with their relationship with Trey Lance I don't know what it is and apparently they have been listening to calls about Trey Lance Just just listening but again, if you willing to listen then you willing to make a move Because if you're willing to entertain something then You you you liable to make some action happen with that But um, even with with besides that they lost Jimmy Garoppolo. He went to the Raiders, which I forget about a lot But with Brock Purdy He had to have a significant surgery and They're not 1000% sure when he's gonna be ready to return And how quickly he'll be able to return So why wouldn't they check in on a Lamar Jackson? He's a top quarterback. He was Available and whatnot. Why not explore the option? Now how seriously they explore the Lamar Jackson? Not sure but the fact that they did Again that that shows that there was some willingness there But we don't know what the details were. We don't know if there was a contract offer We don't know if they you trying to talk to the Ravens and be like, hey, we'll do a regular trade Not the non-exclusive. We just don't know because we didn't hear about that part But they did they did check in on them and see So let's hope that the Ravens and Lamar Jackson can check in on each other And they can do what it takes to end all of this noise To make all of this irrelevant to make all of this talk about oh could Lamar end up there? Could he end up there could he end up there to where they can dare all of that?  Obviously it's going to be good for both sides and That will officially end all of that So we don't have to worry about Lamar Jackson being out. I love y'all


Welcome back. This is J.C. Sako. Your best, your best, the only best girls for sure. My name is Miriam Massava, the host of the Holy Ghost. All right. I'm not alone here. Kuna niks the president? Yes. All right. Across all social media platform niks the president. Miriam Massava, and you can also be part of the show at Y254. Before we went on a break, there's a gentleman who has just performed very two powerful songs, and his name is Sam De Pritchand. We want to interact with him because we are so blessed that we can be graced with such grace here on the show. But anyway, how are you sir? Welcome. Thank you so much. All right. I feel like we should drop them, drop those jingles. Niks, ekatu jingles on speed dad. Oh. Unagatiko, ele jinglesizon. Westin jinglesizon. So those jingles you can be dropping them at any point. All right. We like because we are in that festive mood. But anyway, how are you? Welcome. Thank you. I usually find very interesting those people that I ask, how are you? And they usually answer me, I'm blessed. Kuna shi nuwangu o muli zesu alia pili aje. How blessed are you? How blessed are you? That's the degree of blessing. Which degree? Which degree? Tell us. Tell us. My name is Sam De Pritchand. Yes. So delighted and happy to be with you here. And I can't wait to see what God will do with us today. All right. Sam De Pritcha, interesting name. Thank you. Interesting name. How did you learn the Pritcha? How did you learn the Pritcha? How did you learn the Pritcha? Actually, I'm Pastor Sam. So I just decided to turn the names the other way around. So I'm Sam who preaches, Sam who sings, you know. I also write books as well. Sam De Otha, Sam De Pritcha, Sam De Pritcha, what else? I think it's just that. For now it's that, yes. All right. Okay, that is wonderful. All right. And I've noticed you're a preacher.  And at the same time you're an author. Yes, and I was a singer.  All right. Singing and preaching. Those work hand in hand. They work hand in hand. How can you preach without singing? Serious. By the way. But those who preach and they cannot even sing to save their own hands. They are vocals. The vocals are like him. The kids are like him. So... By the way, I can also play the guitar and the keys. Sorry. I may not do it 100%, but in the church if nobody is playing, I tell you how I feel it. So for me singing is just, it's a gift that God gave me. Actually for me because of the love that I have for God being a worshipper, that's now how I ended up becoming a preacher. Yeah. All right. Okay. You said because you love singing. Yes. That's why you became a preacher. Yes. But preaching.  Preaching in what grace? In what grace? Pastor, apostle, church, grace. I'm an apostolic. I'm of an apostle. For me, more is more on the love of God towards his children. For me, I'll preach, I'll do anything just to win a soul. That is me. I'll do anything just to deliver a message to somebody. Also I love God's people so much that I can sacrifice too much just for people. That's the heart of a pastor who is a shepherd. And all in all I will say is that because of the love that I have for God that he has drawn me to that. Now one of the things that has brought me to that is because I remember many years ago we were auctioned. We used to live in Nyawestet. We went to Ongata Rungay, auctioned again. We went to Matasia auctioned again. We ended up in... When you say auction. Okay. I mean auctioned is auctioned. Your household, your item. Actually I was with my mum. She got married. My stepdad decided to leave us and went. So my mum, where we were living, we could not pay the rent. So we were auctioned there. The things that we were left with went to Ongata Rungay. Unfortunately when those ones left we were... So we went to Matasia. Just a small house. Unfortunately where we used to live is in a Chinese house. So where they used to change chickens. Ile me kubo kubo sana. This one can be sold. So they throw to us. If we catch it, bless God. If we don't catch it, the dogs will catch it. So we were fighting with the dogs. So those guys actually reached a place now. Like you guys just go. So what we did is that when we were just from there, we found our solace in a children's home called Mama Zipora Children's Home. From Matasia stage to where the children's home is, is eight kilometers. So we used to live in actually in a very small room whereby if you happen to sneeze vibhaya, umegongo yo mingin.  So it is me, my mum and my two brothers. So I found that very uncomfortable. But I was still serving in church. I used to walk all the way up Tungara. The church was there. So I used to walk from Matasia to Tungara. Until I reached a place, it was too much. Every single day walking there. So I started living in church. And it is those moments when I used to walk from Matasia to Tungara. It's not a short distance. It is not. And I used to wake up very early just to walk there. That's when I found myself singing. That's when I found myself singing. I found myself worshiping God. When passing through Karen, when passing through all that place, I used to sing, I used to sing. And that is how the singer was brought in me. Ah, that is wonderful. At what point did you record now your first song? And how was the experience? Actually, my first recording is in a song that when my daughter was born, actually it was around three months. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Because that's the same song that I used to sing. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Niwebe tu. Haноm ni konbashwa ni humiwami ya nisha I have you singing something and I know God has called me So I even blocked him because you're distable me So this year I just decided let me go try Nii when I went to his studio I didn't know that was the man God was using To raise the singing in me The man knows the right call that I love I would start the song and he knows how I want to finish it up Sa that is how now it has brought back the life of music Hey manze, manze, the manze didn't block, you know, for real I felt it was not the time and I was not thinking, you know, that thing that you think that I don't want to sing again, actually what made me to do that? I used to be in a singing group, me nili kwa na imbabi baya, siko, siko wubaya, I used to sing low. You know those things, you know those skis when everybody was singing, I would find myself singing another nini. Actually, me are more of an alto than a tena. In a church setup, I was put in a tena. So every time na imba, nambu wa siyo yo, so when trying to find the right voice for me, I find myself have sung off. So every time na shika mikrofon kwa imbabi ina chukuliwa. And one time I remember I had walked all the way from gong to church and I was given a song to sing, that time I was in Gara. I was given a song to sing. I just sang the first words, then voisi kapotea. You can imagine the journey that I had, and nobody knew what I was going through. So that brought a lot of pain and a lot of insecurities. I didn't want to sing. I didn't want to sing. But this year got to me, hey boy, go back. And that's when I started, I did my song Renewed in Praise. That is, I have been renewed again to praise God. How are your brothers? My brother one follows me is called Emmanuel. That guy plays kids. Kids is good. And my other one is called Jimmy. He just graduated from this school in Rimuru. What is he called? St. Paul's. He does the videography and the photography. So you're good. And my mom as well is good. She's good. And my wife, my wife of yesterday we celebrated 18 years in marriage. I'm not young by the way. 18 years. 18 years. One eight. One eight. 18 to one wife, one woman. And my daughter is 14 years. She got 394. I'm believing God for Kenyahai. So if anybody of you is watching me and wants at least wang Kenyahai. Please call. Reach out to me. I really believe God for that. We are ready prophesies. Amen. Congratulations to her. And happy anniversary to you. Thank you so much. Now we are in Ota. Tell us about your book. My book is called Don't Lose Heart. Don't lose heart. The 30 steps to help you hope again and have a victorious life. Actually to start with this book I dedicated it to a man of God that I love so dearly. The man that taught me faith. I was lost. I didn't know. I was actually when because of walking all the way I ended up living in a church. Then one day we were told all the boys living in church. Please because of security reasons we don't want you. That time I went and slept like maybe a week or two at the globe round about the exact katana that is there. But when this song came, I was told that you come in. Can you do the marketing? Yes. Can you do the packaging? Yes. I asked, can I be doing that in the evening? So that I can have a place to sleep. So that during the day I'm working in the church in the evening I'm in the office just working. And that man is none other than Bishop Alan Kuna. That man is so dear in my heart. He took me not knowing who I am. And he took care of me. Of course I married from the church. My wife was in the choir and we together sang together. And 18 years later, look what God has done. So this book is about the 30 steps don't lose heart. Now there are so many things that people go through. I have gone through a lot of rejection. I have gone through a lot of being told that you will never make it. The ups and downs of life. And sometimes we ask ourselves where is God? And sometimes the worst thing for somebody to tell you is that where is Kiliya to Apu? I need a word. I need something from God. And that's why God spoke to me and told me tell the people don't lose heart to encourage themselves in the Lord. And the 30 steps to help you hope again. It is for every single day of the month. It's only like a page or two for every chapter. Once you read that, I tell you you will have great success in you. Because like some of the things like I just mentioned one or two from the chapters, yes. Alright, I just mentioned a little bit. We have number one stand for integrity, small beginnings, qualification for a new life. Number four is his masses and he was forever. Number eight we talk about love. Number 18 is God is a faithful friend. You know some of those things that you just want to hear that is God my father. Is God really my father. And one of the things about Jesus is that he told when his disciples ask him, tell us, teach us how to pray because we see you pray. You came from God. You are God himself. But you keep on praying. Tell us about teachers how to pray. And Jesus told them, when you pray, pray like this. Our father who art in heaven. That is very significant because it shows you that he is not only my father, but is also your father. And one of the things that as believers we ought to know is that we are not fatherless. We have a father who is in heaven and he cares for us. Indeed. Amen. A powerful sigumafanya inspiration. You are reading from my notes. By the way, I am on Fema Award. As you finalize it. You can mention how people can vote for you. Actually on Fema Awards I am the inspiration for personality of the year. Please vote for me. I am in front of your screen right now. Asking for your votes. Of course press star 250. Star 230. Then my number is 3909. So 3909. Vote for me and God will bless you. Amen. Right. Guys, kindly just vote for him. Yes. And let's support him. Yes. Come on buddy. Come on buddy. Come on buddy. Come on buddy. Come on buddy. Come on buddy. Yes. Come on buddy. Come on buddy. Come on buddy. Come on buddy. Yes. So nieri wiki kujanei expectant hair. Whatever is being released kani ako unagrabuki. Umizi, unagrabuki ya. Okay. Right. Speaking of support. Yes. How many people support you? You can support me by subscribing on my YouTube. Sam, the preacher.  My preaching probably might be different from what you know. I have a lot of inspiration. Then also the music I do. They are very wadi. Wadi. That is very scriptural as well so that it can minister to you support me go on my Instagram as on the preacher too and you will be blessed. Amen. God bless you. As you go to sing the word, I do want to sing the word Jesus. I want to say, second time in Diya4 2th we preach the Word. Yes. So, preach the word, don't preach yourself. Actually, very true.  Amen. It was man. Amen. To himself. Alright, shoutouts? Any shoutouts? First and foremost, to... You have a list. Hey, my friend, I have a list. Please. If I forget you, my friend, you know I love you. Shoutouts number one to my one and only beautiful queen of my heart, Esther David. She's here. Actually, she's one who has made me know how to sing. She sings as well? Oh, she's... Oh, my wife. Oh, my goodness. Ha, she fell from heaven singing. What? Hai. You think I sing? Hai, ma vokos. Now, leave alone her. Our daughter. She's bad news. Oh, good news, sorry. Bad good news. Yeah, my love to my family. Esther, Ahadasa and Andrew. Manze, I love you guys. Number two on the list is none other than Kyuna and Reverend Cathy. I'm so grateful for the miracle that Bishop has. God bless you. And now to my church family, Karura Community Chapel. You know, Pastor Pizon and all of you, Bishop Shiramba and all of you, I really appreciate you. God love you.  I love you. And to my family, friends and everybody else watching me, my love, you know. And to Nick the president. God bless you. Amen, amen.  Actually, you know, when I first had you, you know, on the pulpit, preaching was during DJ Kroba's prayer, Thanksgiving service. And you are the guest speaker. And it was amazing and powerful. And it brought back life to many hearts that were ailing. And to the end, I took you to Kudangod for DJ Kroba. But anyway, that someone was meant for each and every one of us. Personally, I was blessed.  Because I'm a Buddhist. Yes. You came to a place. Yes. Karewe kakugongi. Yes. Una leta pwa unachomelea. Apapa. Yes. We came to a place. We came to a place. We came to a place. Ucha, ucha, ucha, ucha koobez. Yes, yes. In the spirit. Uchomelea, chomelea. Apapa, apapa. Apapa. Yes. So that we came to a place where we had a lot of food. We had a lot of food. We had a lot of food. And we came to a place. We said, where Nick? 2024. I have plans. You will do it. Okay, so I will do it. I have plans. That will be then. That moment at Sitam Valley Road. Yes. It was a change. It was a change. We changed. We went out of two points. Yes. We went to Toto Miskia. Yes. We went to Toto Miskia. Yes. Yue, producer. Miskia Nick, 13Laugh Fanyi, Inspiration VRC 2020. Thanksgiving So mein faccya across all social media platform, follow him. And also that's where they can get the book as well. You can even call me. My number. Is 0725... 0150006... 0 Curran God bless you God bless you too Thank you so much for gracing us today Thank you God bless you so much More grace Come back with new music We'll appreciate that Nick, na tublesina again? Uza tublesina There is a Greek Spanish song here I can explain it Uza tublesina I love Sam's 23 too much This time I was just in the house Was just worshiping God All of a sudden I felt in my heart Why can't I do this song in Kikuyu? Why can't I write a Kikuyu song? I took the scriptures So you can imagine what I was going through The boy who was lived in Nairobi So I started to worship God And I found myself saying Gai wa kwa We more radi muega In other words The Lord is my shepherd I shall lack nothing God bless you Na tublesina


Races now we're on YouTube. Excellent. Thank you for that. Welcome, everyone. It is another episode of the cross project council's OpenJS Foundation cross project council meeting. Today is the 5th of May, the five of five, the Cinco de Mayo. Thank you all for joining. Today is going to be another code of conduct working session, working on processes and documentation and all that good stuff. Before we get into things, are there any announcements? Yes, we've got some things to share. Lots of things happening today for those interested in getting involved. Immediately following this meeting, we have the collab summit planning meeting. And so that's at 1pm Eastern. We have a lot of stuff to work on. We have summit registrations that are live. There's 110 people already registered for the collab summit. And so we're really excited to be together that the program and, you know, so come please and chip in if you like. We also have our standards working group meeting today. That is immediately following the summit planning meeting. And so that's at 2pm Eastern. I'm not sure if that's a very full agenda, so maybe short, but hey, it's a good group of people to hang out with. So come say hello and participate if you like. And then on Wednesday, we have Wednesday morning and Pacific and afternoon Eastern is the node red AMA with O'Leary and CJ and Dave, I believe. If you have anything you ever wanted to know about node red, you can ask us now via a form or you can ask us on YouTube or Twitter. And you can hang out with us folks on Wednesday morning. And we also have some blog posts coming up that are exciting project announcements, but I'm not going to leave any of those details. Other than on the blog and what else am I missing? That's all I'm thinking of right now. I can't think of anything else. Is that you typing miles. Yes, sorry. Okay. Great. Thank you, Jory. Anything else before we get into things. I would just add, hey, this is Robin. If you all could also register for the conference as well. I know sort of folks are wondering and we did reduce the PII that was collected on that. But we really would love to have you register it helps us sell sponsorships and just so all of our presenters know how many folks will be tuning in. Great. Thanks. Cool. All right, so we can get into business here. As I had shared in the issue and now in the Google doc, we're thinking maybe we do five minutes on a voting regular member updates as we were a little stalled there in terms of just landing on a tool, letting folks make sure they have any sort of candidate statements that they wanted and such, but I'll let Jory jump in here and give us an update. Yeah, so as you all know, we need to elect two voting members from the regular membership pool. And we've collected three nominees at this, I believe three nominees at this exact moment in time where we're saying that the nomination and period should close end of day today so that we can kick off that, that actual election process. I would love for us to move forward using the tool OPA vote, which I can administer as soon, you know, as soon as the nomination period is closed so first thing tomorrow morning we can open that up. And I would love y'all's like plus one on that approach or suggest any suggestions to change that process, but yeah, that's the TLDR. Great. I am a plus one. I don't know if anybody has any objections to that process. Plus one as well. Likewise. I do have a question though. Oh, what voting strategy are we actually settling on, because there are plenty even in the OPA votes. And so I think it's also important to be clear about that because the data will look different and the outcome will look different depending on which one we choose and it's way better to have that conversation before than after. It's harder to have the conversation before, but I agree it's better to have it before. What are the key choices that we have to make. I'll pull that up really quick so I can share. Okay, here we go. And was some maybe I need to do this because there's an attendee that needs to be there we go. Frankly, I mean haven't done that in the past like actually reading the doc and figuring out which one we should pick takes a bit of time I don't think now's the right time to do that. Very honestly, and I don't have a good answer, or I would suggest it. So I suggest someone takes the responsibility of like reading that up and making a recommendation to the group. Even a presentation to the group to explain them. And why would be good because it's sort of a lot to research on your own and like it could be really time consuming to grok things if it's not presented well. I'm not a voting process expert so I hesitate to volunteer. I know Jory's pretty busy as well. I'm looking at the issue here too. Maybe for simplicity. And so this is just something nice that open vote provides, which is a list of recommended methods based on what type of election you are running. And for electing a group of people, there's some variants of the single transferable vote method that it recommends. Yeah they're suggesting the Scottish one on their page if that's the recommendation to go with this I'm perfectly fine like I just think that we need to have to make this decision upfront not after this the only thing I'm suggesting. I think Jory you'd suggested that we choose something for this vote and not it wouldn't necessarily be the precedent for all votes. So just taking the suggested recommendation in that context seems easier as well right. Yes, I still would love for us to do like the post mortem on on just our election process. You know and how to make this. I mean obviously it's our first one that we really we did so we can sure give, you know, to take all that, you know, but it'd be great to just do the to to to move quickly on this. So we're not like blocking the vote on like a presentation only said maybe. I would suggest we go with their recommendation, which is the Scottish to be just because it seems like they probably thought about it a lot more than us and then we can evaluate it afterwards and see if it makes sense going forward. Plus one. Yeah. Okay, great. So, sounds like, at least on the call there's a consensus for just using the Scottish STV method in open vote to conduct this election. Making a note here and notes here. Great. Excellent. And that's, you know, we try to keep that short. But I'm glad that we've got process to move forward. So, nominations will end today, and we'll start the process tomorrow right sorry. That's correct. Excellent. All right, cool. And we were suggesting the 15 minute time box on charter language as the next agenda item, and then the remaining time on focusing on the issues that are related to code of conduct that are blocking onboarding. And thinking that that is kind of the thing that we should focus on first, and then we can work through the other things we need to work through. Cool. So, we started a doc, I will share it in the chat. That's a Google doc there that has the place to start fleshing out the charter, the code of conduct working group that then we can PR into the cross project council. I think that's correct me if I'm wrong Michael but I think that you kind of threw some stuff in here is the top part and then this morning I tried to go through the ideas there and propose an alternator or something that we can. Yeah, as we were talking through it last meeting, I think those were the notes that I took. So, yeah, how should we, how should we workshop this. I'm just reading through your, your more complete written right up. I'd say like you know let's start with what you wrote up and then say is there things that are missing or things that shouldn't be in it, or concerns, you know, that's probably a good way to start. So I'll just read the kind of short paragraph and then they're the bullet points of responsibilities. The focus of the paragraph first the purpose of the code of conduct working group is to update it is, is to define and maintain a set of resources slash processes that will be used by the foundation and its team slash groups, and can be reused by projects when implementing their code of conduct processes and enforcement. We want to say more or less or what do people think about that. I know miles you've you've written a couple of these before the evening thoughts. Would you be able to screen share. Yeah, I'd be happy to it's a great idea. Thank you. So, can you see my screen here, I can blow it up a little bit. Yep. This paragraph is what I was referring to the people think there should be more or less here. This is merely the chartering in the for reference folks this is the working group stock in the cross project council. And we would be PRing language into this establishing a code of conduct working group this is the standards working groups, code of conduct. I mean sorry charter. And I was sort of using that as an example to flesh out this year. So for a small thing. Please go for it. I just got to say overall I thought it looked pretty good but so so go ahead. Just what says, maintain a set of resources slash processes that will be used by the foundation and its teams groups. That sentence is just like a bit of it seems like it's running on a bit. I'd be maybe say, maintain a set of resources and processes that will be used by the foundation. It's the comma, it's projects, comma, or maybe even just the foundation and its projects. Or I would suggest actually and it's teams like teams is probably the most generic. Teams could cover projects groups, whatever projects are pretty specific. But would you consider I know I'm being pedantic here but would you consider a project to be a team of the foundation that doesn't seem to be inclusive to me. Yeah, I just to give you some some insight into what I was thinking that this this first part of the sentence and I've put a period there to make this the sentence here was particular to the foundation and like the cross project council and you know the team working group and then follow that along talking about the projects that that it can be used by the projects. That makes sense. Okay. So I would I would then change like these processes can serve as a or these resources can serve as a basis for projects when implementing. I don't know if you want to add it. I friend, you know what if you want to add in at the front like one of the goals is that these resources. The only subtle difference there is like, in one case is saying they could be in the other cases like we want one of our goals is to make sure they can be right. So I guess kind of like an additional thing to consider with this, like I know it's something we've gone back and forth on this. Like the code of conduct is one of those things that we will be setting as like an expectation to projects. So I think that it's important for the language here is explicit because can serve as a basis, implementing their own seems to imply the they can kind of do whatever they want but this is like something they could use. Yeah, we have, you know, we haven't said that we're going to tell the projects how to implement the code of conduct only that we've asking that they use a shared code of conduct right. I would say that. Yeah, so I think that's one of the key issues right now that are is actually relating to the things we're going to discuss here in a minute. That's, that's tripping us up and onboarding. And so, you know, we've said, you have to adopt the foundation code of conduct and projects are like okay, how, how would you like us to consume this how would you like us to, you know, point back to it, etc. And to that end there, they need more detail they need that explicit implementation guidance and this group should theoretically be the body that provides it. And I think there are some resources that will very clearly and obviously be optional for the project COC teams to use as at their discretion but then there's going to be some other things that that I think this group will oversee that that we do need. Yeah, I agree with that. So how do we phrase that. I Maybe it's more about a line about saying, you know, the purpose and like and to provide the resources needed by projects to, you know, implement these processes or not implement and just like it is about providing what the projects need to do that the parts which which are not optional and if the parts that are optional like you know provide resources they can use. So maybe that these resources should serve as the baseline. Something along that. That might be a little strong for some of the like if I read that is from a project that might be or you're going to tell me my whole like how I, from my reports and my point of view it looks a little bit too much. Be honest, I would try to like if for smaller projects, these might be problematic for biggest projects kind of fine we can have complex processes in place and so on but for a project. Which has one or two individuals contributing. It's and we have a few like that like three five whatever it's not feasible to have complex processes like it becomes unsurmountable. To some extent. So, I think this is an interesting challenge though. Mateo because my understanding is that the foundation wants to create a team. Joe you're showing messages as a headset. Thank you. The, like the intent here Mateo I think, and people can interrupt me if I'm wrong, is that the foundations like code of conduct panel or larger body. That's foundation wide would be able to be, you know, the people facilitating that for the smaller projects. I don't know if this working group would be the people who are responsible for that. But I think that's important to keep in mind while we're drafting that or at least be honest. Miles I don't think any project would like to outsource completely their code of conduct to somebody else in the foundation. I'm not sure that I mean I think I think what you're pointing out Mateo is that there are a lot of different points of view and preferences, and that those also vary by the size of the of the project. Who governs a project to some extent. And I think one of the responsibilities of this group is going to be to take those considerations. Very seriously, you know, to make sure that new policy as it pertains to the code of conduct has as much input from the smaller projects, as it does from larger ones, and sort of like. That's my hashtag two cents. Maybe a way to frame this could be like the working groups responsible for creating a baseline expectation, or like a minimal requirements for projects regarding code of conducts and to provide resources to projects in order to implement. Because Mateo I guess like the thing I'm trying to reconcile here is like I understand that we don't want to create a new expectations for projects. But if we say the projects must have code of conducts there must be something, some expectation of enforcing it otherwise there's no point in having it. Yeah, and when I think baseline I think behavior I don't think process. Right. And I think what Miles just said, she's an, you know, processor, but like requirements like so to define the minimal requirements and provide resources to projects to help them implement those. That sounds like this, you know, we haven't just agreed where the line is, but this team will have them the responsibility to define that. Yes. We have a question, please. Is it necessary to have everything inside the code of conduct. I'm asking this because from my perspective code of conducts more like a human basis relationship how to to deal with each other in a community as a group, but not necessary as a process on how to do the work itself. Is it necessary to have everything in the code of conduct and should show that we have a split it split it documents for that because when we're talking about human relationships and those kind of things like respect and each other. This should be the base foundation of code of conduct, but each product each project has their own process. And I believe the single code of conduct will not work for everyone. So, and so I think, you know, thank you for sharing your, your perspective. I think it's important to, to point out that that that question of whether there will be a single code of conduct or not for all projects is has been settled for quite some time. And I would not recommend that we revisit slash reopen that that question at this point, because there are just other policy things. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, I just, I appreciate your, your input, though. And I wanted to thank you for it. Yeah, just to be clear to we're just trying to establish some language here that would charter the working group so we don't. Yeah, we don't, we don't need to have all of the things listed out here but just some guiding principles and the responsibilities that we expect here from the group itself, not of the code of conduct. And I almost wonder if we can just drop that second line, like leave it as the first, leave it as the first line. And then, you know, you had fairly good coverage for what we've been talking about already I just added one line which is like to define the minimum requirements and provide, you know, guidance resources to help them implement those because that's specifically what Jerry was calling out we have said, you know, we should use, we have a common code of conduct, but the projects are like okay we need some more guidance on how to how to implement that right. Yeah, I think the only thing I would go for point. I was just going to say that that that captures what I very well what I was thinking, Michael, thank you. The only thing I would say if we limited to the first line, I would just want to include projects, because we only say teams I'd say the foundation, its teams and its projects. Because I personally think the distinction is important, but if people don't agree, it's not a. I agree with that statement two months. Yeah, you know, I'm a little bit more concerned about it. I want that first line just says we'll be used by them it doesn't say how or what the expectations are Mateo, but I don't know how we can make it less. Any less than that would be saying that we don't expect projects to actually maintain a quota conduct. Well, no, that's already part of the requirements. So it's in here you're defining you want to. So, from my point of view, if we want to force something on a project, it needs to be a CPC. Decision versus sorry, if it's a recommendation, it can be completely delegated. I don't know if the line is blurred. I don't know where if it's clear where I want to put the line is the way the point of chartering a working group if we're not empowering them to make decisions. I am not. I just think it's a essentially if this working group decides to all projects should be all CPC needs to be handled centrally I'm not happy to to even allow that. Sorry to be clear. I'm just, I know, but I think it's a pretty big jump from saying that there's processes that will be used by projects to take control of all for the context. I don't see how that jump is. But I do I do take Mateo's point that you can read if you just read the first line. You can take it as that if you look at the second bullet point and responsibilities when it says to find minimum code of conduct requirements. And just to say, you know, this the whole thing that the process we're defining for the foundation and what and what will be done at the CPC level is not the same as what's going to be required of the projects that could be substantially smaller. So on the flip side, if we don't define the projects in that first line, then it's somewhat implies that the code of conduct committee will be making things without thinking about the project needs and thinking solely about the teams of the top level foundation. Like, to me I see I see this as like a commitment to adhering to the needs of the projects not taking control from them. That's what I read from. Yeah, I like the correction that just like anonymous dingo made right now for use by the foundation instead of that will be used. Yeah, I think does does that sort of elevate your. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it's essentially it's. It's not my overall concern is not to be as autonomous as possible. And if I just don't want to some extent to create to reduce this autonomy in any form. Yeah, that's not the intention. Joe one thing you said for use by the foundation and its team and just projects that you would be for use by the foundation comma its teams comma and its projects. Yeah. Yeah, it's okay. It's okay for this. Yeah. So, as a to give you to give an example what I would like this to be is to essentially when you want to set up a project. Oh, it is the process that we, you can draft your own process for CC relations or whatever, but it is ours, take it or do what you want. Okay, and this will what I would recommend this to do versus saying, oh, this is the process you're following. Yeah. I appreciate your concern I hear you holy Mateo and I and it's funny that that small alternative language does help with that. So they just wanted to clarify this. The bit because it's for me it's significant the difference between one versus versus the other. Great. So, um, Go ahead, mouse gun. Um, in the responsibilities where we say code of conduct processes, should we say code of conduct and moderation processes I think it's important to call that out in all the places. Sure. Yeah. I would suggest that we, I mean, we can spend a moment on these responsibilities but maybe it would be best to just PR what we have here in and we can work on it further and in the whole request, what do people think. I think they look good unless you know unless there's anybody who has objections or concerns that it might be worth talking about those specifically. I'm happy to let folks finish their thoughts here we can, what I'm suggesting is maybe we move on to the next time box. Things on the agenda here which was focused on unblocking onboarding specifically related to code of conduct issues. Moving on to that I'll let folks finish their thoughts in the doc and then I can PR that into the working group file. Just one point of order Joe Chris Hiller needs to be promoted. Sorry, can you do that for me. Oh yeah sorry and I think I lost the view from, yeah, because we were sharing. Sorry, Chris. Cool. So I can stop sharing. And jewelry I would I would ask maybe since you are probably most familiar with what is blocking on boarding would you mind going through some of those. Yeah, so. Also thanks everyone for for that conversation now just now on the the charter I think that really is quite and helpful. So, one of the reasons we're we're focusing on this obviously is that we have a bunch of projects, some of which and haven't completed on boarding projects, some incubating projects who are just getting into to this step and are looking for guidance and the critical questions that we really haven't answered definitively for them relate to how they consume our code of conduct. And, and where where our canonical, you know, COC, like is now I think at this point most of us understand we do have even a URL for that at code dash of dash conduct dot open jsf.org. And, but I think that there's still some question within the community about whether that is, in fact, canonical. So how do we ask them to, to consume that canonical. And then the, the next bit of blockage is related to how projects escalate to us. So what is that system looks like. And I think, and I'd be very keen to hear from Toby and Matteo and others on the call who have projects that they're, they're bringing in through and Jordan bringing in through incubation that that would at least unblock the immediate problems areas. And, but if there are other points I'd love to, to hear that too. I'm happy to speak from the perspective of amp. I think what we add here is that I don't think it changes very much for the amp. So I think that's one of the working group as to where that documentation is stored and how that process works as long as the underlying flow, if you will, is well accepted and understood and I think there's agreement as to what the underlying flow is which is project handle this at their stage and there's an escalation path. So where exactly it happens I don't think the the CRC group actually really cares, we just like to have clarity so that we can actually resolve that issue and move forward. What do you mean by where it happens like how does somebody escalate or no like exactly whether you have a code of conduct that is in the repository of the of the project itself was an escalation path written down in there, the code of conduct for the whole foundation has ways to have emails for the different projects, like that part, sort of like that implementation of the process to be more specific doesn't really matter to us like the only thing that, you know, the the amp project cares about here is to have something to work was and just implement that and, and, and be done with it. I think it's going to effectively change a lot of things with the caveat that something has been brought up multiple times is in a situation of crisis that involves, you know, bringing up a code of conduct violation, you want the process to be simple and clear from the perspective of the reporter of the violation. So, I think that perhaps a comment that I added on number 515 and I'm just going to go grab it and pop it into the chat so we all can see it may may illustrate this a bit. Which is, you know, this, this is a pull request that's open about adding the reporting emails to the code of conduct itself so that if an individual hits our code of conduct. They can quickly find the reporting email associated with whatever project they are. They're, they're looking up at the bottom. I added some comment for additional context, and that kind of points to how this is being handled in a variety this this path that Toby describing is kind of being handled in a variety of different ways. And one of the questions I would have is like, you know, are there a couple of different ways that we want to support. For example, in the JS foundation, and it used the former the artist formerly known as the JS foundation, we had a code of conduct file and every project. This project adheres to the JS foundation code of conduct with a link to that document, and then it also included the reporting email address in that file and that so it's a very simple two line file. And that's my comment that's that's number three here. Then we have their other variability beyond that, for example, they may have consumed the COC file that we require, but not repart not not put anywhere within their, their documentation, the reporting email address. So, you know, the question becomes, is there a specific pattern that we want all projects to follow here, just for simplicity, or do we want to provide a couple of options for documenting that path. And I guess there was a long conversation before about whether a reference or inline was appropriate. And I think the, I think what the way I remember the outcome of that is that people wanted to have the code of conduct be inline as opposed to a reference to somewhere else. Well, just to clarify this, I mean the referencing, for example, at the organization level of amp already happens right there's only one code of conduct for the whole organization of amp. And currently that one is hosted in a meta repository on the amp organization from the perspective of amp like whether that is there or like at the foundation level doesn't, I don't think it changes a lot. But if there's like too much back and forth, I think that was the thing that Nana brought up, which is, if you have someone it's in the, you know, main amp repository. It has their witnesses or like it wants to report a code of conduct violation goes into the code of conduct of the main amp repository is pointed to the you want to make sure that that path is as as direct as possible and doesn't do back and forth too much. I think I'm sorry, but I think both options where that is locally or at the foundation level of work from the perspective of that particular use case that particular scenario. So I think to like the request that Matteo had before as well. I think it's reasonable to allow projects to make a decision here about what works best for their project is as far as like, vendering or pointing is concerned every project is going to have different needs. It seems to me reasonable to allow projects to to have their own with more or less the expectation that they keep it up to date. And I think that this is something that if we wanted to and maybe this is like something the code of conduct working group could work on. And to be able to create, for example, like a GitHub action that at a regular basis can check to see if the upstream code of conduct has changed and automate the process of sending a full request to update it, for example. But to me, I think like if we're if we're talking about trying to have some degree of flexibility. This one seems like something we should have flexibility on. So I think Jory you were saying there's like we could we could say here's a few options right it's kind of like. You could do this two line one that's the simplest or you can create a copy. You know you just need to include the reporting the escalation section as part of that. Yeah, I'm a fan of optionality here. Personally, I think that there's a number of of at large at large projects that would just be happy to, you know, and do like the short and sweet two line option, but and you know respecting the agency here of projects that have really robust and and C O C and groups to, you know, be able to maintain their documentation and just add our escalation path like that seems very considerate so, you know, I think, like, that's great, what what we don't have at the moment is just that set of options is defined. And so it makes it very hard for us to affirm that a project has on boarded correctly because, you know, you know, everybody's not sure if they've done it right. Yeah, I guess like the one thing that we may want to confirm here would be, you know, what level of modification is acceptable for the downstream code of conduct. It seems like we have we have consensus that folks like need to be able to change the reporting address. Perhaps it would be reasonable for us to be explicit. If that's kind of the only moderate if that's the only modification that project should be allowed to make seems reasonable. Yeah, and I think I mean I'm just looking at our foundation code of conduct requirements I mean that it lays out the requirement that it needs to adopt this this code of conduct I think modifying it means it's no longer that code of conduct right. But they need to be able to modify it to put their reporting address so I think that we just need to be explicit that you're expected to update the reporting address but that should be the only church. The other thing that we could point out to and this could just be like a resource non official documentation is, we could potentially keep reference to extensions that projects have so the Node.js project for example has like our membership expectations, which is not part of the baseline code of conduct but is like, you know, obviously related to to it. And I think that showing some of these practices can can also be a great way to point out to projects like, here's how you can do some things that go above and beyond, without having to modify the baseline code of conduct that we all share. That makes sense. I, we only have seven minutes I'm just wondering, in terms of unblocking the current projects. We, it sounds like we've, we've kind of come pretty close to agreement on one of the, the key issues which is, and what are the acceptable options for consumption of our COC and so I think something we need to do as a next step is open a PR somewhere that describes these options and get some thumbs up on it and included with that, I think is a, a paragraph or sentence or you know some some bit that describes the escalation piece. In terms of where, so, you know, to, to, well maybe that's, maybe I, maybe that's not even needed right now. I'm just wondering if it's you know what I'm just looking at say this just pasting a link. And it talks about, like it provides an escalation report. Okay, that's not the right section but I'm looking for, you know, basically that that is the email address that we that project should refer to in terms of escalation. We'll see that and this is actually a, a, this section and is something that I think some projects have reported being uncomfortable with. So, like this, in exceptional cases where a reporter wishes to challenge the response from the project's COC team or from the CPC. Like that, that space that piece specifically is something that at least one project has said I'm, we're not comfortable with that being permitted. Because it kind of feels like a usurpion of the project's authority. So, particularly the word challenge or, or, you know, if the word differently with that. I think it's just the whole process of being able to go beyond the projects, you know, determination. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's just about going beyond like the, the projects autonomy so that the concern is well, you know, we said, you know, we gave a, we applied some intervention here. And then the person is appealing it through the COC process, the COC escalation email at their own behest and what if the COC escalation group reaches a different conclusion. Yeah, that's a pretty fundamental question as to whether, I mean, if, if the project can say no to an escalation, then effectively there is no escalation. Right, like there's no, there's no required escalation path, which was one of the, and that that's in there. Because there have been past complaints of, you know, hey, we made reports to a particular group, the people who were in that group.   I think the escalation to start to interrupt, I was just going to say, whether it's like an appeal, or whether it's like, I don't feel comfortable reporting to this specific group, you know, perhaps because their membership is problematic in some way. Yeah, and I don't think they're this, this project's particular concern was like, you know, for the, for the individual using this email, because they may be having difficulties with with the people on the coc group themselves like, like that it wasn't that use case it was the, it was the, you know, we've made a decision and now this. Now this person wants to appeal that decision to an ostensibly higher authority and where the project clearly wants to be the highest authority on their coc. Yeah, but what happens if they report to, I mean, so somebody says okay I'm not going to report to the project because I'm not comfortable they're going to make the right decision. I'm not going to be any happier with the cocp then getting involved in that situation. And I, I don't know I mean this isn't, I'll be completely frank this is not my point of view I'm just trying to, you know, you know, this does come back to the, like the minimum requirements for being part of the foundation. It's, do you have a, and where you draw the line right at the way that this was written before was the minimum was that you know you agreed to have to come to conduct, and that you agreed that this was an escalation path. I mean, I think it's, it's, I think this does this question does point out, though, you know that there are different interpretations of escalation, and that there's also, in some cases, variability even in among members of the same project right so so there's just a lot more conversation that we need to help and support projects to have within their own coc groups, you know, to kind of be able to bring those to the to the to the broader CPC so we can actually help resolve them. And with that we're at time. But I think this was a productive meeting. Appreciate everyone being involved. We should determine what we want to do next week. I've got the PR already open for the charter for the code of conduct working group. You know we can continue to use this meeting time or we can spin off a separate meeting. I remind everyone to check the issues and PR is in the cross project council repo, especially the ones with the agenda label, so we can keep other things moving forward to be any any closing comments or thoughts before we call it a wrap. Let me ask really quick, you know the PR I suggested that we open kind of documenting implementation options. My gut would be that that is something since that would be sort of like some guidance for how to do this would be that it could go on the either the coc repo or even on the onboarding repo. Does anybody have a strong feeling about where documentation like that should live. I would second that. I was just going to add one thought which is maybe we should just reach out to all the project leads and say, like, hey, what do you think about all this. And just say, do you care, or are you just going to follow whatever the foundation tells you do you have a strong opinion just to sort of get some feedback on that from the leads because I know like for dojo and intern we're just going to be like, we're just fine for us we're happy to follow it because that's like the path of least resistance and we're cool with that. And I have a feeling a lot of the projects are going to feel that way as well just because it's one less thing to have to, you know, customize or think through themselves so we might be like boiling the ocean a little bit here which is good but I mean I also think that most projects are probably just going to be like tell me what to do and I'll do it because you know you've thought about it a lot more than I have and that's good. I definitely think that, like, as part of this just can check again with the projects, all of them, you know, maybe even, especially those who aren't regular participants here. Well, we'll call it a wrap. Thanks everyone appreciate you and your time, and we'll talk more soon. Talk to you later. Bye bye. Bye.