Yn y gweithio, mae'r gwirionedd yn fawr i'w ddweud y cyfnodd cyfnodd yma yng nghymru. Mae'r gwirionedd yng nghymru, ym Professor Alexus Sanderson. Professor Sanderson yn ymdweud y clasic ac ysgol o Oxford yn 1967. Yn ymdweud yw cwrwp? Ac rwy'n meddwl ydych chi'n gweithio sydd wedi'i gweithio sefydliadau yn Cashmere, byddwn i'n gweithio'r gweithio'r sgolaeth gwahanol gyda'r tradisiwn Cashmere. Rwy'n meddwl i Oxford, ac yn 1977 a 1992, byddwn i'r lectorau yn Sansgridd at Llyfrgell Llyfrgell. Ac rwy'n meddwl i 1992, byddwn i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r profesor i lectorau a'r lleol i Oxford, ac i'r sefydliadau allanol. Rwy'n meddwl i'r profesor i'r arddangos ar y sgolaeth, byddwn i'r tradisiwn Cashmere, ond y tradisiwn Cashmere yn y ddechrau. Rwy'n meddwl i'r tradisiwn Cashmere, byddwn i'n meddwl i'r tradisiwn Cashmere, byddwn i'r tradisiwn Cashmere, because it mapped the whole world of Tantra and Shiverism in India and even though it's an Encyclopaedia article, I still regularly refer to it. It's so dense and rich, is it? But since then, his work has expanded and built upon that foundation and thro women examining the whole broad range of these Shiver and other Tantric traditions, ranging from the most developed, philosophical a llwyddon cyllidol yn ymgyrch, i'r rhwng Niti Gryti o Tantric Rhytul, ac i'r ddweud i'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r Ddweud o'r Tantric Rhytul yn India, rwy'n ymdweud y rhai hynny o'r rhaid o'r rhwng ddweud o'r rhwng ddweud, a'r rhwng o'r rhwng o'r 500 AD o'r 1300 AD, Shivaism was the dominant religion in India and in so doing he's also made it possible to demonstrate his work is not only on a piggery but also is focused very closely on textual studies, mainly of texts that are yet to be published that exist only in manuscripts and by examining these texts and comparing them with the texts of other traditions he has shown how these Shiva Tantric traditions in particular influenced Buddhism, the Vaishnava religious traditions in India and also Jainism and I think that's what we're going to hear about today in his lecture which is entitled the Jaina appropriation and adaptation of Shiva ritual, the case of Padlyptusuri's Nirvana Kalika and through reading the handout which I hope you've all got copies of, it's apparent to me he's going to start by showing us just giving us an overview of these Tantric traditions and then we'll demonstrate how this Jaina ritual manual borrowed directly from a Shiva text probably a century earlier than it from the 11th century called the Siddhanta Sara Padthiti. Over to you Alexis. Thank you. Thank you very much for that very kind introduction. It's particularly nice to be introduced by a former pupil. I feel very insecure standing here in front of many experts in Jainism and people far more learned in the subject than I am. My acquaintance with Jainism is very indirect and shallow and imperfect. I did study Prakrit as an undergraduate but that was largely self-taught, unreliable and didn't involve the reading of very much literature but a Jaina Sutra, the Kalpa Sutra and a few other works. But I think I must confess right now that I'm guilty like many acknowledges of underestimating the importance of the Jaina tradition and I think it's only in the last five years or so that I began to realise that while life remains I really must try to do something about this and take into consideration this enormous literature produced by Jains over the centuries. Of course my concern with it is primarily to see how it relates to developments in the sphere of Shaiva religion and in my work the Shaiva age I did touch on the Jaina side but not in any great depth and that was largely because I wasn't yet aware of a number of textual continuities which I've subsequently become aware of and in this lecture I will try to address those to some extent at least. Let me begin by telling you something about Shaivism. I probably know more about Shaivism than most of you just as you probably know more about Jainism than I do. So let me begin by saying something about this religion which in my view had such an impact on the early medieval world in India. The earliest evidence that we have of Shaivism begins in the 2nd century BC and it should be pointed out immediately that this is not evidence of any of the systematic initiatory traditions which we know from later times. It's simply evidence of lay involvement in Shaivism of some kind or other. That this lay involvement was widespread in India is clear from both Jain and Buddhist donatory inscriptions. These of course are largely made by these donations are largely made by lay people who of course do not have ordination names and we can see from their name the names of these ordinary Indians of the time that names, theophoric names incorporating the name of Shiva predominate. So already in this early period from the 2nd century BC through to the 4th century AD in this mass of small denative inscriptions that we have, Buddhist and Jain, we can see that Shaivism faith in Shiva of some kind or other is very widespread. But we have yet to find any evidence of the initiatory traditions which we can see in great abundance in later centuries. The first concrete evidence of the Shaiva initiatory traditions comes to us in the 4th century in the form of inscriptions. We have an inscription from Matura, a pillar inscription, which refers to what is clearly a pashupata lineage which also refers to the recipients, the donors mentioned in the inscription, as part of a lineage which goes back if we assign roughly a period of 20 years to each scholarly generation might take us back to the 2nd century AD. But the first evidence that we have is actually dated in the 4th century of a lineage that's been around for some time. Now I've just called this group the pashupata, so I should begin by distinguishing, I should go on at this point to distinguish between the two great divisions of the Shaiva tradition which the Shaivas themselves in later times referred to as the Atimarga and the Mantramarga respectively. The Mantramarga corresponds roughly to most of the territory of what we would others might call Tantric Shaivism. The Atimarga refers to a group of highly ascetic traditions which flourished beginning in this, as I had the earliest evidence in the 4th century, perhaps going back to the 2nd century. These are radically ascetic groups which in their first form that testified in the pashupata sutra teaches a form of pure asceticism of a very radical kind involving complete disengagement from the mundane world with an enormously strong emphasis upon non-violence which I think is one of many evidences in this tradition of influence. In fact, from the Jaina tradition this system seems to have developed in Western India and may therefore is in a good position to be influenced by the long established traditions of Jaina asceticism. I call this tradition Atimarga 1, excuse the numbers but it's convenient. With Atimarga 2, which was in place by about the 5th century I think, we see a profound transformation. The form of asceticism becomes even more radical involving rather shocking transgression of the norms of Brahmanical conduct, begging for the human skull, carrying as a banner, a staff with the human head, a human skull upon it, a living in cremation grounds and other practices which indicate utter indifference to mundane Brahmanical values and utter indifference to lauci co dharma in fact, mundane religion. By the 5th century also we have what I call Atimarga 3. Now this really is the first stage of a major move to what will later be called Tantric ascibism because here in Atimarga 3, which is otherwise known as the Kapalika tradition or the tradition of the Soma Siddhanta, we see a fusion of the earlier Atimarga 2 with a new and very different cult of wild goddesses, particularly the Goddess Charmander and the equally ferocious male deity Bhairava. And this really is the eruption into the Shiva tradition of a Shakta dimension which is of a very different kind. Initiation is accomplished through possession rather than asceticism. The practices are highly antinomian, involve the consumption of meat, alcohol and so forth. But at this stage, and we're dealing with the 5th century, these are our earliest references to them in the 5th century, at this stage we can't yet speak of Tantric Shivism exactly, that is to say we cannot speak of the Mantramarga. What happens in the Mantramarga is a rather profound change in some respects. The texts of the Mantramarga begin to emerge in the 5th century again, the earliest texts that we have which we've just been publishing, the Nishwasa, the earliest level of the Nishwasa corpus, we date to around 450 to 550 AD. So this is the earliest evidence we have of Tantric Shivism. Now what characterises this new movement is that it's accessible not only to ascetics, but also to married men. So this is a very major departure, up to this point it's been restricted entirely to ascetics. No doubt they were supported by Lady devotees and we do have a literature of Lady devotion as well which was going along at the same time. Now for the first time it became possible for married persons to become initiated into the cult and to aspire to the same goal as ascetics, namely liberation from the cycle of rebirth. And this was to be accomplished not through ascetic exercises, but through ritual. This was the extraordinary claim made by the Mantramarga. The claim was that Shiva, acting through his consecrated officions, through his archarias, could actually destroy the bonds of the soul in advance. The destruction of the bonds of the soul would not be immediately manifest when we continued to be the same difficult and awkward customer one always had been, but at the time of death the perfect and complete liberation would ensue. The idea was that the purification was happening at a subliminal level. Now this new kind of religion, which obviously was very appealing in many respects, was not slow to attract the attention of royalty or rather they were not slow to attract the attention of royalty. They started to themselves and they quickly developed a form of initiation specifically for kings which involved offering them the entire benefit of initiation without any of the inconveniences. The inconveniences being post-initiatory ritual duties which would be the downside of initiation. When you become a tantric initiate you don't enter a world of less ritual, you enter a world of more ritual. Tantric rituals are added to your already active Brahmanical obligations. Kings however promised the benefit of initiation without any of the inconveniences, the idea being that their duties to society precluded their engagement in full time religious life. The only requirement was that they should continue as they would have done as lay shivers to support the religion through generous endowment. Now this Manchur Margu tradition bifurcated quite early into two major branches. One relatively conservative in appearance, relatively congruent with the Brahmanical world, referred to itself eventually as the seed hunter. The fixed view, the established doctrine and its followers and practises can therefore be called Saitantika that is the term that we find in the texts. This particular form of tantric ritual offering liberation through initiation does not depart in any dramatic way from the norms of Brahmanical notions of purity and impurity. And it also engages itself much more than the other forms of the tantric tradition in the public domain. It is this tradition which is turned to for the procedures for the consecration of images, of lingers, the consecration of shrines and so forth. So this form of religion is much more publicly conspicuous although it is also at the same time a religion of private practice. Beside this Saitantika tradition we have a range of cults which remind us very strongly of Ati Margu III since they are focused on Bairava and various ferocious goddesses of the Chamunda kind. But they have as it were this tradition that we see at Ati Margu III has now been upgraded by the introduction of new doctrinal developments which were introduced by the Saitantika Mantra Margu. In addition to these two, the Ati Margu and the Mantra Margu, we have a third margu known as the Kula Margu, sometimes simply called shakta. The Kula Margu goes directly back to Ati Margu III. It is the Ati Margu III in a kind of intensified and pure form and focuses almost entirely upon female deities, particularly the goddesses Kuleshwri, Kubjika, Kala Sankarshani or Kali. And eventually in a later development, a very successful development, the goddess Tripura or Tripura Sundari. Now I have to keep this very brief but let me just point out that the big fault line there, the big change within that range of goddesses is between the earlier deities, Kubjika, Kala Sankarshani, Kuleshwri and so forth on the one hand and Tripura Sundari on the other. The cult of Tripura Sundari does not emerge out of the Ati Margu III environment, although there are elements of that which have been taken in. The reason I say that is that it's a form of shakta worship which has freed itself completely of the rather gruesome association with the culture of the cremation grounds which remains very predominant in the other forms of the Kula Margu and in the non-Saitantika Mantra Margu. So because of this I think, because the goddess Tripura Sundari is mild, a beautiful deity, the cult does not require the performance of extraordinary or transgressive kind, for this reason it became extremely popular in India and indeed survives down to the present. Although for the most part it does so in what we might call domesticated variants in which the properly tantric elements, namely the mantras and so forth, have been played down and more Brahmanical practices introduced or overlaying it so that it can be appropriated by the mainstream Brahmanical tradition without the challenge to orthodoxy posed by tantric initiation. It should point out that while tantric initiation was offering a huge benefit, it also had a downside, that is to say the orthodox were always highly suspicious and naturally of any claim that the Brahmanical religion was not enough, that something in addition was required. The shivers were saying yes, Brahmanism is fine but it will not give you liberation, you need to have initiation as well. Once you have it you must continue to respect the Brahmanical religion, it's the ground floor of a two floor edifice as it were, you must respect its rules but it does not bestow liberation. So there was this downside and so that of course fuelled a process of the concentration of safe reflexes of these tantric traditions so if you look in this vast literature we have it really is huge. You have to make a distinction, though isn't a very clear dichotomy sometimes, between properly tantric literature requiring initiation and offering access to liberation which is explicitly beyond that offered by the Brahmanical tradition and a harmonising tradition which plays down the doctrinal specificity of the tantric traditions and just presents different forms of worship focusing on new deities within the broader framework. Of Brahmanical belief and orthopraxy. Now the rise of shivers during this period, mainly from approximately the 5th century on, had as I've argued many times now a very major impact upon its neighbours. Through the securing perhaps of extensive royal patronage, the Sidanta in particular, the Sidantic tradition of Shivers and was able to establish itself in a pan-Indian network of monastic establishments with extraordinary rapidity. In fact I would say that by the 9th century this was the only organisation in India which could reclaim a pan-Indian reach, no kingdom could claim that. But the archaries of the Shivers-Sidantic tradition were often in the role of Rajagurus to a large number of kings, not just one but several at the same time. They were pope-like figures with an authority extending beyond individual kingdoms. And with this, I mean what drove this was of course Daksina, the giving of initiation to kings required an appropriate Daksina, proportionate to the wealth of the recipient. And although the early dikeshas were rewarded with rather modest quantities of land or revenue from land, once this tradition got underway some quite extraordinarily large donations were made by various pious kings. And the Sidanticers were not slow to put this money to use by building branch monasteries, installing their disciples as the archaries in those branch monasteries and in this way in no time at all the tradition spread. So by the 12th century it really is a pan-Indian network. It also went to Southeast Asia but it did so particularly into the Cambodian, the area of Cambodia, the Khmer realm, but it reached there rather early I think in the 9th century and there it stayed in a frozen form, the subsequent developments didn't reach Cambodia. So the Cambodian Shiver tradition, the Sidantic tradition is stunted in a sense, it didn't continue to absorb the new developments that were going on in India. But for that very reason there's a particular interest to me because it, as it were, is a frozen in the past preserving various old Shiver traditions which in India were gone beyond through the process of, largely a process of simplification of ritual. Certain very earlier, very elaborate ritual systems did survive in the Khmer kingdom right down to the 14th century AD. Now with this spread, this massive investment by kings in Shiversam, motivated perhaps not only by their own desire to be seen as empowered by Shiver, their kingdoms as it were, legitimated and empowered, but also of course considering the fact that their tax base was largely Shiver. I think we should take into consideration that the success of Shiversam is not simply to do with cunning strategies on the parts of its archarius to develop new rituals, to bring in royal support. It was also rooted in the fact that it had a very deeply established lay following. So by articulating themselves in Shiver terms they were speaking to their subjects. Of course they tended not to be exclusive in so doing, their tax base included others including giants, Buddhists and so forth, and so on the whole Indian kings were not exclusive in their largesse, they were obliged to give back what they received at least to some extent. There isn't much evidence of really fanatic exclusive Shiversam in this period. They might have been if they'd had the opportunity, but they didn't. The rival traditions were too powerful to be pushed to one side or persecuted. So now the evidence of the influence of two kinds. The first thing is that certain traditions which in early times seemed to have been largely independent of Shiversam were swallowed by it. It colonised them and absorbed them and in so doing it seems disempowered the original forms. So the cult of Skanda, which I didn't touch on in the Shive age, I should have done, I tried to do so in a revised version of it. The cult of Skanda, which originally is rather an independent tradition, gets as it were sucked into the Shiva tradition and leaves little trace outside it. The same is true of the cult of the sun. We know from early sources that there was a Tantric Saurah tradition of worshipers of the sun. Unfortunately their literature has disappeared. What we have are works which show the incorporation of this tradition within Shiversam. So Shiversam, as it were, opened up a slot for the Saurah worship by making it compulsory. This wasn't universal throughout Shiversam but became quite widely adopted. It made it compulsory that there should be a Surya puja preceding every Shiva puja. The ritual system used for that is originally a Saurah tradition. It's quite clear that there are various Iranian elements in it because the Saurah tradition is originally an Iranian religion. But it seems not to have survived as an independent tradition but only as it were embedded in the Shiva tradition. There's also, of course, the very rich tradition of the worship of goddesses in India. This too, and particularly this, was as it were incorporated by the Shivers through the production of a really rather extraordinary large body of texts designed to provide Shiva methods for the propitiation of these goddesses. Now these goddesses themselves are clearly not Shiva in origin in all cases. Very often they have a strongly Vaishnava character in their iconography or associations. So we see that the Shivas were out there systematically bringing in culpers, ritual systems from other traditions, redacting them inside new texts, the most outstanding of which is the Jayadratiyamala, an enormous work of some 24,000 verses, part of it produced in Kashmir, but the original work not, I think, the original core of the text not. And here we see a veritable encyclopedia of Kali forms, many Kali forms, many of which have in fact a Vaishnava background. So we see a gradual incorporation of a sharktism as well, and this sharkt element gets, as it were, it's slot within the Shiva canon, within the non-Saidantika division in a collection of texts known as the Vidya pita, or the Vidya collection, where Vidya stands for mantra, but with the implication that these are female mantras as opposed to male mantras. The noun Mantraha in Sanskrit being masculine, the noun Vidya, which is essentially synonymous, being feminine in gender. So we see this, as it were, incorporation, absorption of the cults of Surya, Skanda and the Devi. Now what about Vaishnavism? Well, I've mentioned that some Vaishnava elements were taken up within Shivasan, particularly the more antinomian ones. But what remained are the more transgressive elements of the tradition, particularly associated with the cult of the God Narasimha. But in mainstream Vaishnavism we see also a very major impact in the development of the medieval Pancharatra tradition. Now the Pancharatra is an ancient tradition, at least the name is ancient, it already is found in the Narayania of the Mahabharata. But of course there's no reason to assume that that Pancharatra is the same as the one that we see in the elaborate treatises that have come down to us, in such works as the Jayakya Samhita, the Satra Samhita and the Parshkara Samhita. These works are often being claimed to be rather old, to be predating the Shiva texts in fact. In my view were not produced before the middle of the 9th century, there are good iconographic reasons for thinking that. And there's also abundant evidence within these early Pancharatra tantric scriptures that they were processing Shiva material and were not doing so perfectly. The consequence of which is that you see Shiva fingerprints on the Vaishnav material, but not Vaishnav fingerprints on the Shiva material. In other words, the Vaishnavists were retooling their system, producing a new ritual system along the lines that were using Shiva software if you like. And in so doing they occasionally borrowed textural categories or certain ontological categories as well that don't make any sense inside Vaishnavism. The redactors of the texts were not careful enough, not rigorous enough to bother to remove all these traces, so troublemakers like me can come along later and see what's been going on. Traces of the process are left in the finished texts. It's almost as though the texts were produced to order at high speed and the redactors did not have sufficient time to remove the traces of what they were actually up to, which was adopting materials from another tradition and passing them off as their own. The impact of Buddhism is really profound. Buddhism completely redesigned itself from the 7th century onwards along tantric lines. In doing so, it began in the early phase using Shiva ideas and then in the later phase from the 10th century onwards by actually incorporating Shiva textural material and taking in Shiva yoga and various other practices which were completely alien to the early Buddhist tradition. This I have demonstrated at some length in my work, The Shiva Age, and there's more to be said on that. When I first started working on that subject I restricted myself carefully to a corpus of texts known as the Yogini tantras which represent the latest and very shark-oriented phase in the development of Buddhist tantras. When I gave lectures on this subject in Japan and there were Shingon Buddhists in the room, I felt I wasn't going to be treading on any Bunions as it were because they also considered these later tantras to be heretical and not pure tantric Buddhism. But I'm afraid as my research progressed it became progressively aware, it became more and more aware of the fact that this Shiva influence goes back to precisely the sources which are the sources of the Shingon tradition in Japan. That is to say the tantras known as the Chariotantra and the Yoga Tantra, which although they do not involve the absorption and rewriting of Shiva material are nonetheless inspired by Shiva religious practice. Particularly through the practice of initiation into mandalas, the practice of recruiting people by creating powder mandalas on the ground in which the deities are summoned and installed, then bringing initiands before these mandalas blindfolded, removing the blindfold and exposing them to the power of the deities. The Buddhists adopted this Shiva practice on a grand scale whereas the Shiva said you may initiate up to three at a time, the Buddhists really opened the floodgates and allowed mass initiations. In fact the earliest text to expound tantric initiation in detail in the Buddhist tradition says there should be no paricha. No test needs to be applied for initiation. Anyone who wants to carry out, particularly the followers of other religions, clearly it's a powerful conversion tool and it was used not only in India but of course also in Inner Asia and the Far East as a way of recruiting people into the faith. So the impact on tantric Buddhism or Mantranaya as one should perhaps call it was really profound. Now when I wrote the Shiva Age I did actually have a small section on Jainism but I'm afraid I hadn't done anything like sufficient research on that topic since then I did a little bit more and I hope in future years to do it a bit more deeply. But let me tell you briefly what I have discovered so far. So any item five of the introduction you have the heading Jainism and under that I have put I think four items numbered A through to D. Now this is not exhaustive, it's more exemplary and I've chosen these because they demonstrate different aspects of the way that Jainism in the early medieval period took in and transformed and utilized for their own spiritual purpose. Practices which were developed originally outside the Jain world. Now the first work that I want to draw attention to is the great Yoga Shastra of Hemachandra, the great Kali Yuga Sarvagya, Kali Kala Sarvagya, the omniscient one of our present degenerate age, who died in 1172 A.D. Now this work, which he says was composed for the Chalukya King of the region of Gujarat, Kumarapala, is profoundly influenced by Shaivism in many respects. The first thing is that it teaches a tantric yoga for liberation. Now I can't go into this in any detail here but if people are interested to see the data or some of the data at least it can be presented to this effect. A handout that I produced for a lecture on this topic in Hamburg in 2011 is available online and I think I've given the reference to it. In fact you can get it by going to my page on academia.edu and you can see that I've put forward quite a lot of material there from the Yoga Shastra to show how a new system of tantric yoga involving visualization of the form of the deity, and also the letter forms, the mantras of the deity, for the attainment not of supernatural powers but of liberation itself. It is often said that Jainism utilised tantric methods, adopted tantric practices, but for mundane purposes, not for the final goal of liberation, that was exclusively accessible through the ancient tradition of purification through the Jain ascetic discipline. But here in the Yoga Shastra we see a very different mentality coming through and it's one that to me is entirely familiar because it permeates Shiva literature as well. So you have this well-known classification of meditation practices following the Kaula or Cullamar classification into Pindasta, Padasta, Rupasta and Rupatita. And if you look, I've put some of the passages on the earlier handout. I have actually a few of them with me if anyone would like to ask me for one afterwards I can give the few I have out. You will see that this is really, those who understand the Shiva meditation traditions will see that this is the source of it. This has no antecedent inside Jainism. Furthermore, he culminates his account of the Jain path and liberation, the Jain discipline, the Jain yoga, with a text which is quite clearly as the great Jambu Vijayamuni pointed out. A paraphrase or a rewrite of a well-known Shiva meditation text known as the Amanaska Yoga and authority on that text is sitting in the second row. So this is again the idea that want to attain liberation by emptying the mind and plunging into a state free of discursive elaboration. This is familiar to the to the world of Shivas, but I think rather not what the early promulgators of Jainism had in mind. So in this respect, the Yoga Shastra shows us a world that is radically transformed, not on the level of ritual, we'll come to that later, but on the level of inner spiritual discipline. The goal aspired to is a Jaina goal, but the methods that have been used to reach this goal are now very different. So the purpose is the same, but the methods are now different. Now the second item I've put down on my list there is sharked, and I've used inverted commas there. Sharked a kalpa, let's just say sharked a ritual systems. And two famous works are there, the Jvalani kalpa and the Padmavati kalpa, or Bayrava Padmavati kalpa. These are extremely important texts and their textual source is quite easy to locate. It's not that these texts have simply taken chunks of sharked a Shaiva literature and passed them off as Jain by changing the names, it's not like that. But the repertoire of mantras and practices is drawn from the sharked a cult of Chippara Sundari. If you look at the earlier handout you'll see the rather concrete evidence of that. The mantras come from the cult of Chippara Sundari and have been creatively reorganized and slightly modified to individualize them. To serve a Jain purpose. Now in these texts the purpose is not liberation, the purpose is the accomplishment of various laukika or mundane goals. So here in this domain of sharked a worship, drawing on the non-Saidantika Shaiva tradition and its Kala extension, we are not dealing with liberationist practice but with practice for the accomplishment of siddi or supernatural effects. The full repertoire of supernatural effects offered by the Shaivas in their own ritual system, but with a much stronger emphasis on non-violence. As you know, the Shaivas are not too fussy about non-violence, especially non-sacrificial violence. There's no trace of that here. There are hostile mantras, there are martial mantras, mantras for use in war, because after all there were giant kingdoms in abundance in Karnataka. But the emphasis is upon somehow weakening the will of the opponent rather than actually killing him outright. So the giant emphasis upon non-violence is preserved in these traditions, even though they include hostile magic. The third element I've given, which I haven't explored in sufficient detail, is the presence of tantric elements in giant samskaras. That is to say, in the giant's development of rituals for the life cycle rites of giant lay people. Now I'm sure one could do a great deal of research on this, much more than I have done. What I've done is read the Achara Dinakara of Varna Manasuri, a work composed in the early 15th century in the north of India around Jalandharu. Here it is very clear that these rituals are permeated by a mantra pantheon drawn from tantric sources. Now finally we come to the element, which is the main part of this talk, and that is the impact of Sidantica ritual on Jainism. So far we've been talking about Shaiva Yoga, influencing the Yoga Shastra, and Shaqta supernaturalist practice influencing the development of Jain culpers in the 10th century and afterwards. Now we're looking at a very different phenomenon. That is the development of a Jain equivalent to the rituals for the insulation of deities in temples, which have been developed by the Sidanticas. Now I think, I know it was in fact Paul Dondas who's in this room, who I think in the article on the Paranamieca tradition pointed out that the Nirvana Kalika looks like teaches a system of ritual which is highly reminiscent of what we find in such Shaiva ritual padaties as the Sorma Shambu Padati. He was absolutely right, it is exactly as he says, but what I'm going to do here is to actually say which Shaiva Padati it was, and to show you some textual evidence to that effect. The Nirvana Kalika was the work of a Jain suri called Pada Lipta, his name actually is in various forms, Pada Lipta, Pada Lipta, Pada Lipta, it occurs in many different variants. What it does is set out in simple prose, Tantric procedures to be followed by Jainers in regular worship, daily worship, the worship of initiates, daily worship, by initiates I do not mean mendicants, not Jain diksha in that sense but Tantric diksha. Procedures for regular worship, Nitya Karama, initiation diksha and the consecration of archarias, the peninsas prescribed for initiates who infringe the rules of their discipline, and in great detail the ceremonies for the installation of images, Pratishta and the consecration of temples. Now I've put on that handout on page 2, just after the paragraph I've just read to you, a citation from the Pada Lipta Archaria Prabanda, the hagiography of the archaria Pada Lipta, found in the Prabhavaka Charita of Prabachandracharya, composed in the 13th century. Here it is. Shravaka naam, yati naamcha, Pratishta diksha yasah, utapana, Pratishta arhad, bimbanaam, djusadam api, yadwchta vidito buddhwa, vidiyet atra suribi, nirwan a kalika asha astram, Prabus cakre kripahavashat, out of compassion kripahavashat. The master, Pada Lipta, composed the Shastra nirwan a kalika, following whose injunctions suris can understand and perform in this world, installation Pratishta, together with the initiation diksha of lay persons and ytis. Installation, that is to say, the setting up of images of the arhats and gods. Now this text is based on, indeed it's a creative redaction of, a surviving Siddhantic Ashaiva ritual manual, as Jim Mallinson has already pointed out, the Siddhanta Sarapadati of Maharaja Di Raja Bhojadeva. I'm sorry, there's a typo on your page. He said to have lived from 0, 0, 0 to 1050, to a ruled rather, from 0, 0, 0 to 1055, read 1,000 to 1,055. And this text, which is not published, although I and other people working in this field have been looking at it for some time, has reached us through two early palm leaf manuscripts which are preserved in the Kathmandu valley. And at the top of page 3 you see the details of those two texts. And you can see that they really are very old. The earliest of them was completed in 1066 to 1067 AD. And the other is only slightly later, 1111 to 12 AD. And you'll see that I give there the final colifon. And in the first, under A, the last verse as well, which explicitly attributes this work to Bhojadeva, King Bhojadeva. And the colifon, which of course is not evidentially in itself because colifons can be easily modified and added, likewise attributes it as in other works attributed to Bhojadeva. Attributes it to Maharaja Di Raja Si Bhova Virachi Tayam, Siddhanta Sarapadatao, and so forth. This is a formula we find at the end of all his works in fact, all the works attributed to him. As far as I can recall, he's always given the title of Maharaja Di Raja, which also appears in his inscriptions. Now, the nirvana kalika is essentially the Siddhanta Sarapadati, modified by rewording and omission to remove intractively shiva elements. Sometimes it's very superficial. Shiva Gaia, by command of shiva, becomes jina Gaia, by the command of the jina. Sometimes very superficial doctrine of the text. If there was no fool, he occasionally realizes that there's material which is completely intractable. He simply deletes it, reorganizes, and sometimes adds original material of his own. But nonetheless, the text follows wherever it can the exact words of the shiva original. So the shiva text is the matrix, which has simply been re-edited to produce a giant work. Nonetheless, in spite of its shiva matrix, its author is not going to declare that fact, of course. He declares in his opening verse, rather disingenuously, I think, that the work has been extracted from the jina gama. Well, I don't know what to make of that, but it doesn't seem to be quite accurate. So now, what date is this text? How old is it? Now, the earliest attributed citation of the nirvana kalika is in, to my knowledge, 1191, and my knowledge is not very profound in these areas, and if someone can come up with an earlier citation, I'd be very happy to hear it, is in Siddhar Senasuri's commentary on the Pravachanasarodara of Nehmi Chandrasuri. He, in fact, refers to the last section of the nirvana kalika, mentioning the text by name, for its account of the yaksha devis, the iconography of the yaksha devis, which occurs as an appendix to this nirvana kalika. Having said that, it simply follows the Shaiva text, I should add, I have mentioned briefly, but I'll elaborate slightly, it is also creative, it does add new giant material, particularly of course it has a different pantheon of worship, it doesn't just take over the Shaiva pantheon of worship, it takes over a five-faced, it introduces a central deity, a four-faced parameshtin, surrounded by the dikumaris and so forth. And so, inevitably, it's treatment of regular ritual, although it uses the Shaiva text wherever it can, has to depart from it when it actually sets out the details of which mantras are to be used, with which deities in the order of procedure. But as soon as it can, it gets back to its source. So there's a principle of inertia here, he never writes where he doesn't, he never composes where he doesn't have to. Wherever he can, he stays with his Shaiva prototype. And when you do, as I have done, when you prepare an addition of the text, in the two texts side by side, let us say, the way I did it, I have my own, in my computer, my addition of the Siddhanta sarapadati, you take a chunk of that and put it in one side of the page, and then modify that to produce the giant version by looking at the printed edition, so you then have the two side by side. So by doing that, each time one makes a change, one is going through exactly the mental process that the redactor himself went through, as he produced his giant text from the Shaiva. And sometimes one thinks, oh, that was clever. Sometimes one thinks that was rather superficial, a little bit too facile. One actually sees his mind at work. It's not often that in studying remote periods like this, one can get right into the shoes as it were, the slippers of the redactor. But on this occasion, it really is possible. And one sees a mind that is sometimes intelligent, sometimes rather not so intelligent. One sees, in fact, a human being at work. So we can say that the nirvana kalika must have been composed before the commonship of Siddhasenasuri, composed at 1191 AD, and after the Siddhanta sarapadati, which it is clearly utilising. As I've said, the Siddhanta sarapadati says in its closing verse and in its colophones that it is the work of Maharaja Di Rwaja Borgadeva, the Emperor of Malwa. His rule occupies most of the first half of the 11th century. You have a footnote finessing that slightly, but it doesn't really alter the matter. A terminus antequem is provided by the date of the Kriya Kandakramavali of Sorma Shambu. Because the Siddhanta sarapadati was the model for that better known work. That being in large part, as I've shown elsewhere, a versification of the prose of the Siddhanta sarapadati. Now the Nepalese, Indian, South Indian and Kashmirian manuscripts of this popular text, the Kriya Kandakramavali, differ unfortunately on the date of its composition. They have a verse towards the end of the work in which they state the date, but there are different versions of this verse. But one of them I find much more trustworthy than the others for reasons I can't elaborate on now. Put it this way, this version seems to have come directly from the place where the text was produced at the time of the production of the text. The region of Gurgi in Rewa in central India under the Kalachuri kings. Now this date, which is earlier than the others that have been found, gives a completion date of 1048-49. So we can say that the Siddhanta sarapadati was composed at some time before AD 1048-9, no doubt during the reign of Borjadeva, even if we are suspicious of the claim that the work was by the king himself. So many works attributed to Borjadeva one wonders whether they are not really the products of his court and his obedient pundits who produced them rather than actually from his pen. We can't be sure, at least there's room for doubt. But I think the attribution to the reign is plausible, even if it wasn't his pen that put words to palm leaf. Now is there any evidence within the giant literature itself to support this rather late dating of the text? As no doubt many of you know, giant hagiography treats Padlipta as a very ancient figure associating him with a king Murunda who is sometimes associated by western scholars with the Kushana period. He's also said to get into magic contexts with Nagarjuna and I think with Kaputacharya. So he's presented as a very ancient figure. That's what we see in the Prabavaka Charita. But as we've already seen, he also knows that this author was the author of the Nirvana Kallika. Well, we do have the closing proshasti of the Nirvana Kallika and there we are told that the author was the disciple of the Vachanacharya Mandana Ghani who was himself a disciple of Sangamasingha who was described as leader of the Svetamburas and ornament of the Vidyagara Vidyadara Kulla, or we like Vidyadara Vamsha. Now, according to Daki in a Gujarati article of the year 2000, the Sangamasingha who was the teacher of this Padlipta's teacher, is the Sangamasingha of the Vidyadara Kulla who died through Salekhana on Mansa Trunjea in 1008 AD. According to the Pundirika Swamin pedestal inscription of that year, this date is consistent with the requirement that his pupil's pupil, the author of Nirvana Kallika, post-date the composition of the Siddhanta Sada Padati. So I think it's very clear on many grounds that we're looking at a 11th century work here. Now in the rest of your handout what I've put in front of you is a parallel edition of parts of this text with the prototype from the Siddhanta Sada, the Siddhanta Sada Padati on the left and the giant rewritten version on the right. The Shiva version, the Siddhanta Sada, is based upon two manuscripts which are called A and B and the numbers following the letters are the folio numbers in question. Now it's obviously not possible to go through this in any detail, but I'll try to pick up some points. Before doing that I should point out that the earlier handout which is available online gives much more text covering completely the sections on regular worship and initiation. So that bit I'm not touching today, I'm moving on to Pratishta. Before I do that I should say that this doesn't cover the whole of Pratishta by any means, that's the main subject matter of the text and in fact it does not cover the main part of Pratishta in the text which is called the Bimba Pratishta avidi and there the text departs from the Shiva prototype following part because its pantheon is entirely different of course but also citing procred verses many of which are found in the Panchashaka prakarana attributed to A Harry Badra. So here the core initiation, the core ritual of insulation deviates in the larger section of the text but the frame around it, the rituals for example for examining the site, adopting the site for the construction of a temple for laying down the initial the first stones that acts as it was the base, the so-called padas, the feet of the temple and then I've also included the ritual of Dvar Pratishta the insulation of deities in the doors and finally I've included the Hrit Pratishta the insulation of the hut which is in fact a kind of animation ritual in which life is given to the temple. So I've given you sections from those complete texts in all cases but enough there to make the point I think you'll see on the first page, page 5 that the texts are virtually identical this is the beginning in which the archari is supposed to examine the ground to see whether it's suitable for the Yajamana who wishes to found the temple according to his caste and so forth. Now I've marked in bold characters the significant deviations in the giant version and you'll see that there are only two on that page in the first case about two-thirds of the way down you'll see on the Shiva side Tat Purushadi Mantisam Purjitam Arstihantam Prajvalat Yali Pashid this is a prognostic atary right to work out whether the earth is suitable for a person of a certain caste by lighting lamps, a number of lamps and seeing how many of them go out but the important thing is that in the Shiva case the lamp is worshipped with the mantras of Tat Purusha etc these are the five Brahma mantras of the Shiva tradition corresponding to the five faces of Sadashiva Tat Purusha, Aghora, Vamadeva Sadhya Jata and Ishaana Now that of course was immediately recognised by the giant redactors inappropriate for a giant text so he instead substitutes the Angamantras also as a concept adopted from Shiva Mantra Shastra each Mula Mantra has Angamantras each Brut Mantra has auxiliary or ancillary mantras so likewise the giant tradition adopted the system of Angas, six Angas with the Mula Mantra so he says Hridayadi the mantras beginning with Hridaya the heart Anga is the first of those Angas so he diffused the Shiva element there by substituting something neutral a bit further down the text on the Shiva side in bold characters Aghora Astréna so Tvala Paala, Pujadi, Mantra Tarpanantam Karma Krithwa, Aghora Astréna Sahasram Huttwa Kumba Panchakam, Saptadania Llam Upuri and so forth having first completed the ritual ending with the gratification of the mantras and the beginning with the Puja of the door guardians and ending with the gratification of the mantras he should then make 1,000 oblations into fire reciting the Aghora Astréna the weapon mantra of Aghora this is a specific Shiva mantra that of course won't work in the giant context so the giant reductor simply translates substitutes Mula Mantrena with the root mantra thereby diffusing the Shiva content on the next page as this ritual proceeds we come to a point in which a pot covered with two cloths is to be placed on the shoulder of a Brahmin this is to do with making the boundary in the Vaishnava case the word, sorry, excuse me in the Jainer case the word Brahmanasya Skandeya Vidaya Nidaya sorry having placed it on the shoulder of a Brahmin instead of that we have Indrasya Skandeya Nidaya having placed it on the shoulder of the Indra Indra Indra as everyone in Jainism knows is not the God Indra here but the Yajaman the patron of the sacrifice of this Pratishta so that's adapted a bit further down there was a rather interesting piece of mumbo jumbo which I try not to waste too much of my life on mumbo jumbo but it is difficult sometimes you see on the Shiva case Va Khachata Eha Shapa Yair Nawabir Varnai Prashnagatayl Va Shalyam Janiad this is a prognosticatory procedure for detecting the presence of invisible shalyas impure or dangerous things buried in the soil which should be removed before the building of the temple proceeds and this involves making a grid and putting these letters in the boxes within the grid as a prognosticatory procedure based upon that and these are indeed the letters in the Shiva case I think the way it works there is a brief account of this in Elien Brunet's detailed commentary on the Soma Shambl Padati citing relevant sources from South India it's to do with what words the Jautisha the astronomer uses when he interrogates you so if it starts one of these letters that indicates a Shalia in this direction and so forth it's a kind of prognostication from the Prashna the interrogations notice on the Jain aside the redactor was puzzled by this as I was indeed when I saw this when I saw Va Khachata Eha Shapa Yair I thought this looks like gibberish the Shiva manuscripts have corrupted it and I looked over to the Jain case and I saw a nice neat pa ysa these are letters that have some kind of order to them the classes of the sounds but in fact I think what happened is that we know from other Shiva sources that the mumbo jumbo is real those are indeed the letters to be put in the grid and that the Jain redactor unfamiliar with that substitutions a more rational arrangement no doubt it worked just as well anyway apart from that you'll see the texts are essentially identical on page 7 in the Pada Pratishta this ritual for the installation of the the stones the original Shila bricks or stones that form the base of the temple which are originally put in holes at the beginning of the whole procedure if you look at the top of page 7 on the Shiva side all manantai a nama iti cumbam viniasia and so forth then having performed a reparatory fire sacrifice to eliminate any mistakes the consequence of any mistakes and the ritual up to this point so Prayashita ho man vidaya Shila ha cumbam Shradaya taking up the stones and the pots you need both for this ritual and having proceeded to the temple Prasadam gatfa and having installed Datwa the Adara Shakti the power of the cosmic support Adara Shaktim inside the holes which have been prepared for these stones he should then place the cumba in the central hole the pot in the central hole with the mantra o manantai a nama ananta is the typical Shiva throne deity in the construction of the throne ananta bataraka is installed here and of course that won't work in the giant case so it's too obviously Shiva so we have a slightly condensed version tatashila cumbam Shradaya then having taken up the stones and the pots and having proceeded to the place of the temple Prasadastana magatya why did he change Prasadam to Prasadastana I think there was no reason for doing so it may well be that he saw this variant in his manuscript of the text and that our two manuscripts are the deviant ones here of the Shiva prototype and then having placed the cumba cumba magatya in the central hole with the mantra o manantai a nama a nice standard giant mantra and what about this adhara shakti that's not a giant so we have Siddha shakti the power of the Siddhas is installed in the place of that but you can see that the mind is it's hard to know how creative this is is he inventing these things as he goes on or is he drawing on and now lost a view it's possible but I have a feeling that either here or his predecessor was looking at the parallel as it were and substituting Siddha shakti as the nearest thing he could think of for adhara shakti we want the shakti but a shakti of what we can't have the adhara shakti how about Siddha naam shakti the power of the Siddhas so having done that lag nakale buddhyntad va padaviyabti san cintia having visualized it invading the entire universe up to the level of buddhi beginning with earth up to buddhi the san kirtatvas up to buddhi lag nakale at the appropriate moment for proceeding astronomically determined astrologically determined appropriate moment for proceeding and having pronounced ucharia the mantra om haom shivaia swaha this is a classic Siddhantika root mantra this is the mula mantra of the Siddhantika tradition of swaha fa namah because this is treated as a huma so having uttered that he should then namaskarena shilaam vinya said he should then place the stone on it using the namaskara the namaskara mantra so on the giant case we have a slight variation lag nakale siddha shakti vinya san cintia om haom jinaia swaheti mantra mucaria namaskarena shilaam na visiaia what are the chances that these two texts being written in exactly the same form by coincidence I think it's impossible and then we have the mantras of the directions the laws of the directions the lukapalas or the dikpalas the same in both the shiva and the giant case no need to change those we have om lul mindraia on both sides of the text and so forth but one difference the giant system uses 10 lukapalas it must have brahman for above and daranendra for below naga so here the redactor adds om naga enama to conclude the list of 10 locations of lukapalas iti lukasia mantras tam ramaia cumban it goes on exactly the same and then at the end we have some additional shiva material that we want to use so it draws it to a premature close so having it installed going down a bit to the words darma di cetwscum a darma di cetwscum siar shila anam a di stai ac etween a fyniasia having installed the five beginning with darma darma gianna, vairagia a naiswaria and the four excuse me the four beginning with darma darma gianna, vairagia a naiswaria and the four beginning with their opposites darma darma agianna anaiswaria a vairagia as the forces that preside over those stones shila anam a di stai ac etween a fyniasia he should then perform a elaborate puja visiesheta puja mvidaya that normally means in the shiva case doubling all the offerings a more elaborate more lavish puja then he should worship the sanga et cetera and we find a number of places in this in this parallel where shiva elements are skipped over and instead there's a sanga borgina or a sanga pujna introduced making offerings to monks and so forth sometimes it seems to take the place of homa one could say as a general observation that this gianna version of the ritual procedure more or less completely excludes homa but actually not completely it excludes homa from the regular worship and that's very different from the shiva case shiva case consists of puja, japa and homa three things are required making offerings to the deity visualise first internally and then in this external substrate gratifying the deity by reciting the mantra the root mantra a certain number of times followed by the ancillary mantras recited for a certain number of times and then finally gratification of those mantras by offerings into fire the shiva's allow you to skimp on that you don't have to do it every time you do puja but you can't eliminate it altogether the gianna version excludes it so at first sight I thought ah this is interesting here we have the gian anxiety about kindling fire, there's not appropriate in the religious case because it destroys living creatures and so here we have as it were a purified this is one thing that's been sacrificed in the production of the gianna version but in fact homa does appear here and there and it does also appear it appears for example in the Bhuparikshavidi it also appears in the Sharpta material, the gianna Sharpta material so there isn't actually a nice clean division there there's a kind of overlap but nonetheless we see a desire to push it out as much as possible or to marginalise it now we're running out of time, I think I'm being expected to speak for one hour no approximately so we're coming to the end and so I'm going to jump ahead to a rather fascinating passage which is on page 9 in the middle Hrithpratishta and I put beneath that the words Prasada chaitanya sambanda connecting the temple with consciousness the temple has been built the deity has been installed but the temple itself is inanimate it needs to be animated and the Shaiva is developed a rather extraordinary ritual to this end a small model of a purusha a person, a homunculus, made of gold was prepared it was animated by the installation of mantras all the mantras you need to be an incarnate being all the tatvas, all the levels of reality which you need in order to be an experiencer in samsara are installed in this golden purusha it is then placed in a pot which is also richly prepared and then it is placed above the shukanasa I don't know what the correct term in English for that architectural feature is the parrot's beak which is above the entrance to the temple so the middle height of the temple there's a niche where this is installed and this is supposed to as a word once that's been done that as a word makes the temple conscious so this is why I've called it following in fact suma shambu prasada chaitanya sambanda well the giants were happy with that adopted it word for word of course they can't talk about shiva agya the command of shiva they talk about jinn agya instead as you will see half way down the page but everything else is exactly the same including the insulation of all the tatvas now the tatvas installed in this person this personification in the temple it's not all the shiva tatvas it's not all the way up to shiva being known as a praleakala in the shiva case a subject on the praleakala level it has all the tatvas up to kala up to maya in fact but no further it's not enlightened being it's somehow a transit migrator so the temple in this model is seen as a transit migratory being rather than shiva himself which is perhaps surprising but you will see that beginning it's actually referred to as an ati vahakadeha installing in this golden purusha an ati vahakam deham ati vahakam deham sunstarpe having installed a transit migratory body the body by which the soul can move from incarnation to incarnation to do that according to the shiva theory it needs to have this raft of tatvas from kala all the way down to earth so the intermediate tatvas kala vidya raga etc and then the tatvas known to the sanke tradition all the way down to earth so the jain simply adopt that although there's no tradition of these tatvas in jainism they're simply taken over seen as non problematic filling up quite a lot of the text in fact and then after one has installed all these tatvas you'll see on page 11 at the end of the first column on the left having thus installed the collection of tatvas nadi dasakam vayu dasakam he should install the ten channels and the ten vital energies these two come from the shiva yogic world they two are adopted idha pingala sushumna saavitri and so forth and then finally the homunculus this little golden person is addressed in the shiva case he's commanded he should recite a command to him Lord of Calar because the main reaches up to Calar swatad ffeinasa shiva gaya prasada stiti pariantam statavia you must stay with your tatva here at the command of Shiva as long as this temple enduws exactly the same on the jainer case except that instead of shiva gaya we have arhad agaya at the command of the arhad now having shown you those parallels I'd just like to briefly to say words that reveal what I don't know rather than what I do as you know it might it would seem that this text and the tradition it represents is not well represented in later times I've counted 12 manuscripts of the text but I haven't been able to locate perhaps through not looking hard enough texts in the lineage of this text which repeat it or paraphrase it if you look at the shiva case surviving all of which are reprocessing and modifying the same material indicating a very lively tradition but there's nothing as far as I can see that really reproduces clones as it were with some small modification what we see in nirvana calica now you might therefore say that this is a kind of aberration a fringe text which had no importance for the jain tradition I think this is to jump the gun because what we do know is that jainism underwent a very radical reformation from 11th century onwards in which various purist groups pushed away this kind of temple based ritualism going back to the ancient tradition of asceticism and emphasizing on the importance of the discipline of the celibate monastic or the celibate mendicant beginning with the activities of the caratara gatcha but as we know there are so many other movements which were cleaned the board, wiped the slate clean of these developments and we see in our early sources in the 11th and 12th century a very strong sense of hostility towards what are referred to as chaity vasins chaity vasina those who live in temples and in mutters attached to temples who enjoy regal attributes who live like kings in their monasteries performing tantric rituals and so forth this text it seems to me should be seen as belonging to that tradition as a record of the ritualism of that tradition and if we don't have more surviving that may not be because the tradition was irrelevant in its time but because the giant tradition has undergone a profound Protestant reformation if you like in which this ritualism has been marginalised but I'm talking off the top of my head it's pure speculation there are people in this room who will be able to comment on that and set me right I hope thank you very much


So the second let's see someone is I believe passing out Logan is passing out copies of the counting the cost lesson Which we're going to look at this morning It's the second in our series of essentials classes Which would you know the outline still for for essential starts with the gospel? We did that last week counting the cost and then Salvation conversion sanctification Assurance discipleship evangelism small groups the church Church membership unity and separation church discipline and Then cessation and spiritual gifts, but there's a sense in which this subject of counting the cost is just always part of our Christian lives Situations present themselves as we're making our way through this world that Require us to Make judgments and and consider What's at stake and and our faithfulness So if you would turn with me to Luke 14, we'll look at verses 25 to 35 the first part of this lesson is is about counting the cost and then the Second part is what what is the actual cost of discipleship?  He cannot be my disciple Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple For which of you desiring to build a tower does not first sit down and count the cost Whether he has enough to complete it Otherwise when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish all who see it began to mock him saying This man began to build and was not able to finish Or what king going out to encounter another king in war will not sit down First and deliberate whether he is able with 10,000 to meet him who comes against him with 20,000 And if not While the other is yet a great way off. He sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace So therefore any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple Salt is good But if salt has lost its taste how shall its saltiness be restored? It is of no use either for the soil or for the manure pile. It is thrown away He who has ears to hear let him hear So we have in this passage in particular in verses 27 To 32 parables about actually counting the cost a process that and each one of us has Gone through on some level when we first heard the gospel and began to consider What what demands the gospel was making on us in terms of how we live But before that section on the tower and the Army that's coming. There are Conditions of discipleship There are actually three Two before and one after so who can Tell me what those three conditions of discipleship are we're in Luke 14 25 to 35 Rise and shine If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters Yes, and even his own life. He cannot be my disciple Okay So that's one of them, right?  What does that mean? How do we do that brawlio that means that you love the Lord with all your heart mind so in strength and he's above everything You follow him. You obey his word and faith and obedience So you love him above all else and if that means Preaching the gospel to your family and it causes a division you continue to follow Christ and trust Christ And you love him more than anything else you love him more than yourself Than your own life your own possessions and you give up all for him Thank you, so it's not a a literal hate Past Michael Yeah, I wanted to share a passage that that shows So that shows that that is true that hatred of life and family is equivalent to Superior love for Christ over Life and family and it's in Matthew chapter 10. It's a parallel passage beginning in Verse 34 Matthew 10 34 do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth I have not come to bring peace but a sword For I have come to set a man against his father and a daughter against her mother and a daughter-in-law Against her mother-in-law and a person's enemies will be those of his own household Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me and whoever loves son or daughter more than me Is not worthy of me and whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me Whoever finds his life will lose it and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it So it's a relative it's in a relative sense, you know, I I can think of people who you know have have Responded to the gospel With repentant faith and it has come at the cost of a wife, you know relationships with parents Friends, you know if it doesn't happen that way to you will praise God, but the issue is that When it does when you have these choices those challenges these difficulties Your commitment always first is to Christ The the verse 27 anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple what is What what does God have in mind there in that passage so in those days across one thing and that was death And so you need to be willing to die Yeah, take up who does not carry his cross and follow me So Commitment all the way up to and including Giving your physical life for the cause of Christ and to follow me Is an obedience issue following me and so You know when we think about sort of christened them today and What Christianity often looks like I Mean we're radicals because we go out and knock on doors We're radicals because we are Confronting people with the gospel We're radicals because we want to get together during the week and Pray together and hold each other accountable and study God's work Yeah You know the the question in my mind when I when I'm told that that that is radical is you know if you are as a follower of Christ Willing to die for Christ Why would you not be able willing to get out of bed and go knock on someone's door or? You know make time on Wednesday night to spend some time with people in your Community in your church But these these things are too demanding for for many And then the last one or the third one in the same way in verse 33 in the same way any of you who does not give up Everything he has cannot be my disciple So who can tell me what what's in mind there? And I can almost see Claudia it means to Leave everything that Was important to you in the past material things anything that It was important to you in the past in order to follow Christ Does it mean that you have to give up literally physically Everything I guess the things that For you to be Yes Willingness to do that right you may not actually have to part with everything Calvin addresses this this issue. Well, he said It would be absurd to insist on a literal interpretation of the phrase as if no man Were a disciple of Christ till he threw into the sea all that he possessed Divorced his wife and bathed farewell to his children Such idle dreams led foolish people to adopt a monastic life as if those who intend to come to Christ must leave off humanity Yet no man truly forsakes all that he possesses till he is prepared at every instance at every instance to leave all Prepare to leave all gives himself free and unconstrained to the Lord and rising above every hindrance pursues his calling Thus the true self-denial which the Lord demands from his followers does not consist so much in outward conduct as in the affections So that everyone must employ the time which is passing over him without allowing the objects which he directs by his hands To hold a place in his heart So the issue is a willingness to give up everything a Change of affections what what what is what what's important to you and what will be first to you Will it be your financial security your comfortable lifestyle When the demands of Christ intrude on those things you go. What are you gonna choose? Pete the simplified it just means Christ's primary everything else is secondary Amen That is you know, that's easier said than done, right? I mean we're Constantly, but we're we're drawn by the world every practically every waking moment. There's a pull To make everything else first as opposed to making Christ first So, you know for the Unbeliever who is wrestling with you know, what do I do?  He's been smelling the stench of sin He's still been blessing us You know both believer and unbeliever, you know rain Sunshine, you know Think about what he gave up Think about the commitment he's making sort of takes the Whole idea of cheap grace Out of the equation to think about what Christ has done what Christ has done. I mean just in the flesh I'm I read about The crucifixion that is not an easy death. It normally takes three days to die up there Three days and like with his way they had the His hands stretched out and you know, like they said put it through the hand That's not where it went down through here nerves in there in order for him to catch a breath He'd have to pull up on that And while he's sitting there with the ridicule of Everybody there and all the sins of the world on him and he asked you to give up Everything look at what he did for you Amen Brawlio There's a text in 2nd Corinthians chapter 5 verse 14 That says for the love of Christ controls us having concluded this that one died for all Therefore all died and he died for all so that they who live might no longer live for themselves But for him who died and rose again on their behalf And I think what Lee was saying this text describes that if the love of Christ really controls us it's because We see that he died in our place for the payment of our sins and he rose again to secure that and To count the cost of discipleship is to consider this love of God for us in Christ and Why not live for him wholeheartedly? You know the other so yes, what Christ has done for us incomprehensible and really in some ways But you know the other issue is you know when you talk about the cost of discipleship No matter what the cost of discipleship is it is not even in the same realm of Consideration as the cost of not following Christ the cost of not following Christ. I mean think of you know an eternity in torment Where well your entire being is consumed with the The relief that you might get from a single drop of water For all of eternity so But still when when When you come to the gospel and you come to the cross and and you're we are these simple very limited Beings and and you start thinking about Well, how am I going to do this you know I think of 1st Corinthians 6 9 Which we often will read to someone We're witnessing to Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God do not be deceived neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who practice Homosexuality nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor revilers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God and Such were some of you, but you were washed you were sanctified You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God So you you come to the cross and you you like I well, you know This is how I live and I can't live this way anymore if I'm going to follow Christ That's the kind of thinking and the kind of process that this text is calling us to which is a You know a very different sort of call to salvation then What You know passes for the gospel in many churches where You know, I'm going to stir you up into an emotional frenzy and then I'm going to play a You know Sweet song and and I'm going to stand down here and wait for a half an hour or till you walk down this aisle It you know looking for that quick decision The issue here is that don't you can't come to faith and Is in just sort of an emotional and quick decision. This is something that you need to think through and and so that's what is being addressed in in this passage and in particular and You know from verse Verses 28 to 32 There's in 28 for which of you desiring to build a tower does not first sit down and count the cost Whether he has enough to complete it Otherwise when he is laid a foundation and is not able to finish all we see it begin to mock Mock him saying this man began to build and was not able to finish You know there there there was so there's a sense in which you know at the beginning of your your Understanding of the gospel You know you have to Consider what what you're being called to But It's also true that you may have been a Christian for many years and You're still building this tower right you haven't finished yet There are more trials and more challenges and more tests ahead for you Spurgeon addressed that and I'm In a sermon I want to read you part of what he said Do you not think that there are a great many towers of that kind about in our day? I mean unfinished Christian characters persons who profess to be followers of Christ but are not They just exhibit To you their own shortcomings There are people with good intentions who did make some attempts to follow Jesus But since it involved too much self-denial They were not able to go that length so they turned back and walked no more with him They began to build a tower but never finished it May God and his mercy prevent you and me from Becoming a laughing stock to all eternity I believe in that last great day And forever those persons who knew enough about the gospel to wish to be Christians And who were somewhat actuated by right motives, but yet who never went so far As to give up their hearts to christ Will stand forth as monuments of their own folly and even the demons in hell will point at them and say These men began to build and were not able to finish Such persons will be unable to answer that contemptuous sneer If you have conscious conscious Conscience enough to begin to follow christ even reason itself requires you to go to the whole length If you know that it is right for you to do so, why do you not go through with it? If you are sufficiently convinced of its rightness to go as far as you do Why not still go farther? God grant that you may Better never begin to build than to commence without having counted the cost And then to find that you have not sufficient to finish Pete You know, I think that goes to verse 27 Back in their day they faced persecution and Commitment that they were to have was in the face of possibly dying Because of their belief And he was telling them that they need to stay fast stand fast And do not sway Do not give in and worship idols just to stay alive But it also means for people in our in our position that we are to continue on doing His work until we die Okay, and and and uh The the difference between the two is that they could face immediate death which sometimes happens with us But most of the times we just you know live on until old age and but if we're supposed to maintain christ first until we die Thank you.   You know and the pleasures of this world or are you living for christ? when you're In a in a trial and some great difficulty comes upon you, you know, I mean there's a there we are we're all In some sense crisis christians, right? We We really get down and start praying when Times are tough. That's not the way we should be living In the in the Called to giving this morning first peter four seven, uh, you know, peter's calling on people to Think and pray And and and reminding them that you know the end is near and and so Um, you know, that's how we need to live. That's how we need to think we need to we need to consider that um, every moment of the day We are walking With christ here right beside us and you know, how would that make you live differently? What would you do with your time with your? resources with your money with your thoughts What would you do differently and how how would you live if If you lived sort of with that kind of consciousness Well, he is right here with you And so, you know, you've got you've got to think that way um the other the other Parable here what king going out to encounter another king and war will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able With 10 000 to meet him who comes against him with 20 000 And if not while the other is yet a great way off he sends a delegation and ask Asks for terms of peace That's a little different than the first one right the first one There's no impending disaster right? um, you're You butchess you're called to count the cost This one is different. You know this there's a crisis and Matthew Henry in his commentary on this passage said Note first those that persist in sin make war against god the most unnatural Unjustifiable war they rebel against their lawful sovereign whose government is perfectly just and good Secondly the proudest and most daring center is no equal match for god The disproportion of strength is much greater than here supposed between 10 000 and 20 000 Do we provoke the lord the jealousy? Are we stronger than he? No, surely who knows the power of his anger In consideration of this it is our interest to make peace with him We do not send to desire Conditions of peace they are offered to us and are Unexceptionable and highly to our advantage Let us acquaint ourselves with them and be at peace Do this in time while the other is yet a great way off For delays in such a case are highly dangerous and make after applications difficult Why would you do war with god? You know both of those parables I think really forces to As as you're as when you hear the gospel and when you're confronted with The call to repent and you start doing this inventory And you think to yourself well how I mean this is how I've lived all this time How am I going to live like that? instead There This this repentance that is working by the spirit of god in you um Should bring you at some point to understand that You cannot do this on your own You cannot build this tower on your own you cannot Win the war against that oncoming 20 000 soldiers on your own you you And so you cry out to god And you say god help me Give me the strength give me the ability give me the will give me the desire Make it possible for me He says he will If you come to him that way so So you've you've got to count the cost um As you then when you're walking with christ you're you know in the In the battle that you know that's when the battle begins um I remember we were brawling and I were talking to a young man weekend before last and You know that point came up. It's like You know Once you commit yourself to follow christ Now that's when The battle begins um You know up to that point You've loved your sin and it's easy And that's really what we're we're going to look at in these other verses in the time that's left um Look at Matthew 10 16 to 39 Persecution will come Let's start with 17 Be on your guard against men they will hand you over to local councils and flog you in their synagogues On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles But when they arrest you do not worry about what to say or how to say it At that time you will be given what to say for it will not be you speaking but the spirit of your father speaking through you Brother will betray brother to death and the father his child children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved When you are persecuted in one place flee to another I tell you the truth. You will not finish going through the cities of israel before the son of man comes A student is not above his teacher Nor a servant above his master It is enough for the students to be like his teacher and the servant like his master If the head of the house has been called bielzebub how much more the members of its household Well, let's stop there and and just look at you know what what You know price is saying What god is telling all of us What what what was facing these disciples what's facing all disciples um is persecution And if you are experiencing no persecution of any kind for your faith Then it's you know there's a question about whether you have faith genuine faith um, your faith is going to cause you to live differently than the world It's going to cause you to speak um to act And and if that doesn't get some kind of reaction from the world toward you in some way Then you're either aren't speaking or you're not acting Or something something's not quite right It's in verses 17 to 20 There will be what we're being told is religious persecution and and government persecution Who's experienced government persecution for their faith? here Want to share with us like what that looked like? so um There there have been a number of times where I've been preaching the gospel out at a park a public park exercising my my right to a freedom of speech and preaching the gospel and having the police come and um, tell you to stop the man that you stop um Give you trespassing warrant trespass warrant. So um very little But um, that wasn't my mom or dad persecuting me, you know those were authorities How about um religious persecution? Has anyone experienced that from a religious authority of some sort? Ben Well, I'm certain that everyone has a similar story because I mean we've all Been at a different church or another but um essentially the one of the one of the churches that that we When me and Brenda were initially converted We were at and we were serving and doing as much as we could but After we learned More about the word of God and more about what sound preaching sounded like and realize what that was We took the time to um write out a very lengthy uh Letter to this church to point out everything it was doing unbiblically thinking we were doing it at service um But uh within I think a couple hours of reading through that letter to them Essentially they just ushered us out of the church being very very faithful to this church. I mean they were shocked as they had nothing on us Because we we love God and we love the people there and we served But yet when we spoke the truth to them and just you know line after line verse after verse They did not like that and they just ushered us out the front door I've heard other stories like that from you know people who have Left false churches. I wasn't shown the door in my case, but um I guess I didn't stay around long enough for them to do that um so You don't go out and seek The persecution right and that's not the point but If you aren't experiencing any of any kind then You must not be doing much part of the What follows here um In this passage is At that time you will be given what to say You know those are opportunities for you to to be witnesses um So you go out and you preach the gospel on the street um knock on door and somebody yells at you or um Stand up for what's right in a false church and get shown the door all of those are There there are also opportunities for you to you know stand up for the truth and and that's Part of the cost of discipleship, right? I mean if you're if your goal is for everyone to love you and um When friends and influence people As Dale Carnegie says, um, you know following Christ is probably not the Thing for you um Going on in verse 26, so do not be afraid of them There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed or hidden that will not be made known What I tell you in the dark speak in the daylight what is whispered in your ear proclaim From the roofs Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul Rather be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell Are not two sparrows sold for a penny yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will Of your father and even the very hairs of your head are all numbered So don't be afraid. You are worth more than many sparrows You know what we when we are thinking about the cost of discipleship when things are difficult, um, when our Courage is tested um, what we're What we're being reminded of here is that Our our eternity is really what we need to keep in mind and it will be glorious it will be So far exceeding in wonder and Blessing any sort of difficulty you may have um in this life that you know the think With an eternal perspective keep eternity in mind don't get all wrapped up in whatever the difficulty at the moment is Um, um, I was reading it just this weekend about Steven Like in this passage it says a disciple is not above his teacher Nor a servant above his master It is enough for the disciple to be like his teacher And then what I was reading about is that Steven Was really like christ because at the end when they stoned him um Jesus said you know forgive them so they know not what they do But Steven said lord don't hold this to their charge So persecution is going to come And our job is to try to be like, you know, like Jesus was which is really hard to do And we have to work on it every day But when you think about persecution you really have to think about Steven because he was just like Jesus in that respect Yes I'm reminded of Philippians 129 I think it is um You know, it's been granted To us not only to believe but to suffer For his sake It it's a privilege persecution for the sake of christ is Is a privilege that's um You know, it's not fun But there is a sense in which it We should experience it with a degree of joy Just to know that we have been counted worthy To suffer for his sake Yeah, you know what you just said is very important because it doesn't feel like that when it happens um There's strong temptation to wear that rejection and persecution as a badge of shame Rather than really what it is a badge of honor. So we have to Preach we have to believe that like the word of god tells us Blessed are you when you are persecuted for righteousness sake, right? And we have to by faith believe we have to receive that truth by faith and let that truth Be the lens through which we estimate our suffering um We say badge of shame. What what do you mean exactly? How do you like um, so so There's a temptation to be ashamed When you suffer for righteousness sake, um, if somebody persecutes you it doesn't feel good It doesn't say if you don't have those passages in your mind and taking your thoughts captive and bringing your thoughts Into subjection to the word of jesus christ. There's a strong temptation to feel um that rejection to to be grieved to be sad to To believe the lie of the world that says You know what you're doing is wrong and Unloving and inappropriate and unacceptable and worthless and so Believers can Not believe the truth at times and believe the lie and um be shaken in there. Yep. Be shaken in their faith and doubt and Shut their mouth You know and not speak or or not just try to Slide under the surface and get off the radar in a sense and those are temptations That come from our own flesh That those are lies that come from the pit of hell And we need to take truths like the passage of scripture that you just read and the passage of scripture that I just that I just quoted and believe them and let them Be the lens through which we estimate our our suffering and Then when we do that we will have a brave heart, you know like the the disciples who left um Solomon's porch rejoicing that they were counted worthy for suffering In the name of Jesus Christ. I just wanted to say that because It's one thing to hear what you're saying And a whole another thing to believe what you're saying And when the suffering comes and when persecution comes and rejection comes and your family abandoning you and your mother and your father Not wanting anything to do With you because of the name of Christ and because you have committed to walk in the way everlasting You have to hold on to those truths and preach those truths to yourself constantly You know, I think as you were talking about that There's there's subtle ways and which that happens to us over over years of following Christ and You know that the the last part of luke the saltiness issue I mean, what's it What's in mind there is You you follow Christ for 10 years 15 years and You know the rejection that you experience over the years From all of these people all of these sources, you know, and maybe it's that You know, I've witnessed to 5,000 people and only two got saved. What's the point?   Don't be Don't become apathetic and lethargic about your, you know, your faithfulness That said this is you know, this is one reason Uh why it's a good thing for You know this whole class to to consider counting the cost because you know Most of you in here are not at the beginning of your christian life. You're you're some years into it and You need to get saltier not Less salty Let's look at Luke 9 23 to 25 And the two minutes that we have left and he said to all If anyone would come after me let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me For whoever would save his life will lose it But whoever loses his life for my sake will save it For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself You know, it's the worst imaginable thing Um that you would come to the end of your life and you don't know when that's going to be um And You know just have a feeling of Um, I could have done so much more I could have You know this I spent my time doing this when I could have spent it glorifying christ Um, don't don't waste your life Uh Don't pursue gaining the whole world Uh, this is this is a vapor. You know, this is the passing Moment in time Um But I wanted to read you one thing about um It's an I think it's an anonymous Uh, quote, let me see if I can find it about Denying yourself Suppose you have been neglected Or unforgiven You sting with the hurt of the insults from such an oversight But your heart is happy because you have been counted worthy to suffer for christ That is what dying to self is about When your wishes are crossed your advice disregarded your opinions ridiculed And yet you refuse to let anger rise in your heart or try to defend yourself You are practicing dying to yourself When you lovingly and patiently stand face to face with folly and spiritual insensitivity And endure it as jesus did you have died to self When you are content with any food money clothing climate society Solitude or interruption by the will of god you have died to self When you never care to refer to yourself in conversation record your own good works or desire Commendation from others you are dying to self When you can honestly rejoice with a brother who has prospered and had his needs met And never feel any envy though your needs are greater and still unmet You have practiced dying to self When you can receive correction and reproof from one a blessed stature than yourself and humbly admit He's right with no resentment or rebellion in your heart.  Let's pray Father in heaven, thank you for this These words this encouragement Help us to honor you in the ways that that we live and to Just remember the Great cost At which you purchased us In jesus name amen


Can you smell? What the rock is This actually this is work for this. No, I don't think this works. Hang on. Just got to get more into You know though Kind of more This sort of mood You smell the rock is Dorito That's a hot mug guys. Hey guys, this is my review for Hobbs and Shaw This movie is so many bananas I originally actually had the opening of me holding up a bunch of bananas to say just how bananas this movie was but That was about a quarter of the way through the movie, but then I got to here and I was like this is Exactly the type of mentality that this movie is made for the writer is Chris Morgan who has been writing for the Fast and the Furious franchise I believe since maybe the third one. I really think his name is Kyle His first name is Kyle his last name is Kyle and his middle name is Kyle because this movie is made for a Kyle The Fast and the Furious franchise has obviously gone into a situation that is absolutely absurd Absolutely banana monkey crazy.  I can't believe How this film went through half of the shoots it did without someone saying all right guys You might be overdoing it and yet I still Think I will not watch this movie again. In fact, I actually have not seen the last I haven't seen eight. I haven't seen seven. I haven't seen six since I only ever watched them once in the movie theaters and I've never saw them again not on TV not on a plane not even on Netflix or anything just bad no care to That's all I could take. I think that they're at a point now where these movies come out I'm like, okay. I watched that I can say I watched it did I enjoy myself? Possibly I could never watch it again. I feel that is exactly the same thing in this movie. Is it entertaining for rock fans? Yeah, sure. Is it entertaining for stereotype Jason safe movies? Yeah, is the band are funny between these two of course it is for the first bit And then it gets too much and then it just gets ridiculous and that's the movie basically You can see that this movie is just trying to up Kyle itself all the time Wait for instance the rock wise he's walking through a bar. He takes two shot glasses He slams him back and then it tosses him over his shoulder. What a douchebag and that's how they start the movie in the end I think that Homs and Shaw is a film that you should watch just to be absolutely Astonished that the rock jumps out of a building six hundred feet up in the air continuously falls and is stopped by a Shard of a plane of glass and a car and he just walks it off.  This movie is three kiles out of seven I'll admit though. There is a cameo by one person in this film. It's actually the one time. I've ever found him Funny, I have not found him funny in anything. I think he's just too much Except for scary movie three.  I gave it away I hope you guys enjoyed this review. If you did leave a like and if yours just said maybe subscribe and I hope to see you guys soon Thanks for watching the video. It's been a while But I'm happy to say the click is finally getting back together in an all-new movie Thanks to a successful Kickstarter campaign, but we are still asking for your support. You know, Nits You can't get more money unless you offer questionable favors. Yeah guy unless of course those favors involved the ladies guy By support, I mean getting the word out guys. Oh Well, couldn't you find a better means than this guy? All he seems to talk about is supernatural or hold a coffee mug real awkward Why didn't you ask a Kardashian or something? Yeah guy get in with the ladies guy Hey, he's trying to help out like you've been trying with Kimmy Burton I've seen job of the hut finish a marathon faster. Yeah guy. You're a massive slug thing guy To see any and all updates about the upcoming undergrads movie be sure to check out and like the bring back undergrads Facebook page and with any luck. We'll see you guys soon


TfNN headline news update Good afternoon everybody. I'm Tommy O'Brien coming alive from TfNN headquarters in St. Petersburg Florida 2 p.m. Eastern time on Monday two hours left to go in the trading day We got markets hanging around record territory S&P's right now positive by 18 points trading at 3039 NASDAQ positive by 81 points trading at 83 24 Dow Jones positive by 124 points trading 27,082 all the indices marginally off the highs but S&P's highs all-time highs looks to be the close if we hold where we are right now Goal contract pulling back a bit off about ten dollars at 1495 oil negative 82 pennies at 55 84 Notes and bonds getting a little bit a higher yield today the 10-year negative 10 ticks at 129.06 that 10-year yield floating at about a yield of 1.85 percent the 30-year negative 29 ticks at 158.15 and we've got the dollar index negative a hundred ticks on the dot at 97 735 we'll start things off. Let's start it off with a chart of that 10-year yield right now reaching a high today of 1.8579 you're currently sitting just under that level at 1.842 percent quite a pop from where we were on Friday, which was 1.74 percent jumping over to the charts will start things off with the indices will start it off with the Dow 27,037 looking at the December futures contract actually peaked above 27,100 early in the day on a couple occasions NASDAQ 100 hanging right up near those highs 81 14 Microsoft with quite a day will pull up that chart in a moment as they are awarded a ten billion dollar cloud computing contract from the government S&P 500 there you go high on the future contract 3042 we're within about three S&P points at that level 3039 crew contract quite a pullback early this morning just after the opening bell We get a price tag of crude of whereas our high 56 dollars and 91 cents we're now off adult more than a dollar from that level at 55 77 There's your gold contract pulled back for most of the early session We reach a level of about 1493 just after the opening bell and gold just kind of been hanging at that level since currently at 1495 and the euro US dollar trend 111 on the dot and as I referenced there's a lot going on. There's the chart of AT&T They're up 4.2 percent and Microsoft as well Microsoft right now up 2.5 4 percent Stay tuned folks We got Tom O'Brien coming up live at three o'clock as he finishes up this market day S&P and record territory Stay tuned folks. We'll be right back