hat's the case. We're nowhere near that far. And all we've suggested was if they were planning to do that, they do have to make some modifications. They're gonna have to create the driveway that would be on them to do that, the new curb cut going from Old Town into our driveway. The town would be responsible for building that if they were to eliminate our other driveway, our current driveway. And that was the compensation, so to speak, if anything, it was just to create the new driveway. But as far as being open to that, again, we would be, I don't know if that would work from a fire engine ability to turn around standpoint. If we don't- Yeah, we'd really have to vet that with them, but I mean, it's certainly discussion we can have, yeah. What I think you need to do with this is you need to incorporate, you need to talk to town people on this. And I think it's Jason Skeels, exactly what you talked to about this, Chris. Yeah, I think it's Jason Skeels. I think you need to, you've got Berkshire Design Group, you should task them to try to figure out a better traffic flow with this, with, in case you do have to deal with a bus stop that you can't change. And then you may wanna talk to somebody if you wanna get outside help from some kind of a traffic engineer that can give a better, they'll go out and look at the site specifically and respond to some of the concerns that the exit or entrance closest to North Pleasant is really gonna be a dangerous place for people to exit out of because you got it to make a left hand turn, you gotta practically do a UE there. And it's a narrow little street and I think you have a real challenge before you're designing something that's gonna work.  You have some great ones on tap and I would encourage you to look around and you'll deal with the town, try to see how you can do a better job of providing access to your parking areas and yet safe transit for the residents that are there. That's a little narrow street with people that are walking on it. So that's something you really have to take care of. Oh, all right, well done. Yep. And one last thing. Oh, and when you come back the landscaping plan that kind of shows which trees you're taking down is normally what we see. We see a landscaping plan that says these trees are coming down, these trees are staying, this is what's gonna be planted. That would be helpful to have. So those are the only ones you're taking down is just three. Well, there's three large trees here but most of this is open, yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Mr. Chair, we also asked them beforehand to modify their plans to include that. And that's what these plans show. So these plans do show where the trees are being taken down. It's hard to see, but you can see the circle in there. Yeah. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that was in our package. No, no, it's okay. I mean, that was something that was discussed before the application was submitted. So that was something we vetted during that process. All right. Never mind. All right. And then Ms. Marshall, and then we're gonna wrap it up so we can get to the last item on the agenda and try to be done by night. Marshall. All right. So two comments. One is I think it's very important to find out, or I would want to know if the town insists on creating this new bus stop, will you be required to put in a second driveway on Old Town, even if you don't build a new two-family dwelling? All right. That's one question. And the other is just an idea. I don't know who would pursue it. Maybe residents have thought about this, but I wonder if because of the deficiencies of Old Town Road, the town might consider making that first block one way west. Yeah. Good idea. And I think I saw on one of the comments, I don't know, Chair Mayer, I'd love to respond to a comment. Yeah, to one of the residents comments that they would like to see a sidewalk perhaps. Again, something we would not be opposed to. So along the North side of Old Town Road, be happy to put a sidewalk there if that would help. And as far as the vegetation goes on the top, where Old Town Road hits North Pleasant, where I've heard a lot of people, I mean, I'm happy to clear cut that entire thing down to the ground and put grass there. I mean, we're intentionally leaving it again to have a buffer, but I agree it's unsightly, it's mostly covered in poison ivy, and I'd be happy to get rid of it entirely. So if that's of interest, we would do that. Great. All right. Well, I think that to conclude our work on this application tonight, I would like to move this to a date certain. And Rob, what do we have available on the calendar for when this can be continued? To when can this be continued? So anytime in September. So we have September 14th as the first meeting and the second meeting of September is September 28th. So unless one of those two days conflicts with this current panel schedule, I would say you could do it as soon as September 14th. Or the 14th to the 28th. All right, so that's in six weeks, practically, right? It's about six weeks. That should give you guys enough time to tell me if there's enough time to do the kinds of things we're asking you to do to respond to us? Or do you need more time? Do you need two months? If we could maybe just work with Jeff and Charles here and then I'd also like to speak to Jason in the town to see if they can part, because I think there's some questions we need to get answered from the town that are critical as far as the drive works. So if we could get back to you by next week. The problem, Mr. Casey is I'd like to do that, but I got to move to a date certain. Now we could, you know, that's just technical. Let's pick the 28th then to give us. Great, let's do that. I'll give you more time. All right. So it'll be Thursday, September 20th at 6pm, just for members of the public and everybody here for your information. Put that down your calendars so you know when to attend next time. Thank you. And I'm going to ask you if that's a Jewish holiday. I don't see any Jewish holidays listed for that on my calendar. I don't know when your own Kippur is, but it's one of those. I think Rosh Hashanah's either September or. On a Saturday and this is nine days after the month. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't see any holidays for 28th Hilda. So we should be good. That's okay. Okay. Thank you. Yom Kippur starts at 24th. 24th. And when does it end? That's a one day. Okay. So 25th this one. Okay. All right. It's 20th. It should work. Rosh Hashanah begins on the 15th. Yep. Okay. So I think we've come to a consensus here. I would entertain a motion that we continue this public hearing and public meeting on ZBA FY2023-12 798 800 North Pleasant Street until September 28th at 6pm. Is there such a motion? So moved. And is there a second? So then. Is there any further discussion on that motion? If not, the vote occurs on that motion. The chair votes aye. Mr. Meadows. Aye. Mr. Henry. Aye. Ms. Marshall. Aye. Ms. Greenbaugh. Aye. Motion carries unanimously. We'll see you guys all in the end of September. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Appreciate it. Take care. All right. Next order of business is a public meeting on ZBA FY2026- excuse me, 2020-26. One University Drive South discussion of condition 61, which allows for the applicant to return to the ZBA or public meeting for review and approval of the design of a freestanding sign and monument sign. I understand this brushbook you've got. You're going to present on this. Is that right? That's correct. Yes. Thank you. I'm sorry for the delay in not being able to take you earlier, but we need you here anyway. So thank you for taking it anyway. Yeah. My name is Christine Brestrup. I'm the planning director for the town of Amherst and I'm here to talk to you about a wayfinding sign. The town has been working on the wayfinding sign project since about 2013. It seems like everything takes us 10 years to get done. But in any event, in 2018, town meeting appropriated funds to create a wayfinding sign system for the town. And the town hired a designer and the signs were designed. And then last year at the request of the town manager, the town hired a second sign designer to review the locations and also to review the sign designs. The sign designs and locations have been reviewed by the second designer and have been presented to the design review board and the town council. And now we have a sign fabricator whom we've hired and who has manufactured the signs and is ready to install them. Some of the post directional signs and parking signs have already been installed. You may have seen them. There are a couple of post directional signs around the downtown and there's a nice parking sign pointing to the parking lot behind town hall. The sign that we're bringing to you tonight is one of three wayfinding signs. The other, it's a welcome sign, one of three welcome signs. The other welcome signs are going to be installed at the intersection of Triangle Street and Main Street. And that's one that the ZBA already approved and at the intersection of Amity Street and University Drive, which is in the town right of way and doesn't need ZBA approval. So the welcome sign that you're reviewing tonight, if Rob would bring up a picture of that, that would be helpful. So you could see the nice design. The one that you're reviewing tonight was initially going to be installed in the state right of way to the east of the intersection of University Drive and Route 9. But because of the construction along Route 9, we reconsidered that location. So there's the sign. Can you move it over a little bit, Rob, so everybody can see the whole? Yeah. There it is. Yeah, that's better. Okay, thank you very much. That's good. So these are the welcome signs that have been designed. I think we're still, I don't know, I'm having trouble seeing that when I have people in the way. Maybe I need to not have the people there. There we go. All right. So anyway, because of the construction, we decided to move it away from the far side of that intersection. And in the end, it was decided that installing the sign before the cars get to the intersection would be better than installing it after the intersection. So Rob, again, I'm not seeing the full sign. I don't know if other people are. Maybe I'm having a strange view of things that other people can tell you if they can't see the full sign. Barry Roberts, the owner of One University Drive South has agreed to have the town install this welcome sign on his property. And Rob Wachilla has a copy of Mr. Robert's email that we recently received agreeing to having the sign being located on his property. He had already agreed, both in email and verbally to do this months ago. So Barry Roberts had a site plan approved for One University Drive South under a special permit application. And that included one freestanding sign. Rob, can you bring up the image of the site plan that Barry Roberts had approved? Yeah, just give me one second to pull that up. Proof set plan. I believe it was just the one page. So I'm going to quickly bring that up real quick. And just let me know if folks can see this. And we can't see the full image if you could, I guess, make it smaller. We can see the full sheet. Are you all can see it? Okay, that's good. All right, so. But it's in everybody's packet. It's in the packet. I'm looking at my heart copy. It's in the packet, that's right. So the sign location for the freestanding sign that Barry Roberts had approved was at the northeast corner of the building. And maybe Rob can use his cursor to show where that is. That's the southeast corner. The northeast corner is down towards the bottom of the page. And you can see there's a little sign. It says proposed 31 by 61 inch sign. And it's a little line that goes kind of up and down. It's to the left there. I can see his. There it is. Yep, that's it. That's it, okay. So anyway, that was the sign that Mr. Roberts had approved. The condition 61 of the special permit for this project states that the applicant shall return to the ZBA for review and approval of a freestanding sign and a monument sign. But Mr. Roberts has installed signs on the building and has decided that he doesn't need either a freestanding sign or a monument sign. The signs on the building are allowed to be up to 10% of the building wall. And the signs are less than 10% of the building wall and are already in place. Maybe Rob can bring up in one of the renderings that shows the image of where the signs are located on the building. Don't have those plans handy, but I might have to do some digging around for that if you want me to. It was in the packet. I looked at it today. Just review from West. Oh, okay. Let me choose. Figure two and figure one. Oh, I see it now. Yeah, that's my bad. Let me screen show that again. I know board members can see it, but I'll do this anyways. All right, there is a rendering. It looks like you have the signage right there. It's being blocked by the tree. Yeah, so the signage is on that north wall. So he's already got his signage in place. And in this image, you can also see where he initially had this freestanding sign over on the left there. Yep. And that's where the proposed wayfinding signage would go. Correct? No, the proposed wayfinding sign is going to go in between those two big trees right there. Right here. Oh, to the right of that. Where the, to the left of that. Right between the trees. Yes, exactly. In the shade. There you go. The town, yeah. So the town is now, I am representing the town, coming to you under condition 61 of the special permit to ask that the CBA approve the welcome sign proposed to be placed on the property in place of Mr. Roberts freestanding sign. The wayfinding sign does comply with the setback and size regulations for signs in the PRP zoning district. The properties in the PRP zoning district and the location of the sign will be at least 10 and it may be as much as 15 feet back from the property line on the route nine side of the property at the northwest corner of the building. For signs in the PRP zoning district, the property owner is allowed a freestanding sign that is up to 30 square feet and that is 10 feet high if the sign is located half the setback distance for a building. Well, the setback distance for a building in PRP is 20 feet and this sign is proposed to be installed at least 10 and maybe 15 feet from the property line. So it will be at least, at least half the distance from the property line of the setback. So therefore the sign, a sign of 30 square feet and 10 feet high would be allowed in this zoning district but this sign is only proposed to be five feet, three inches high, which is less than 10 feet and it's about 15.5 square feet in area which is less than 30 square feet. So in conclusion, we're asking that the ZBA approve the design and location of the freestanding sign that is a town welcome sign as part of the town's wayfinding sign system in place of the freestanding sign that Mr. Roberts was originally proposing under condition 61 of the special permit decision and that you approve the location at the northwest corner of the building rather than the northeast corner of the building as originally proposed. Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Director Pressfoot. Are there comments, Ms. Greenbelt? Yeah, so I'm gonna turn to the Cinderella and I've been at my batteries getting very well. I have a funny feeling that looking at the picture, the sign may be so far south from the road that people's eyes may be distracted and I wonder if there's some way that we can bring it closer to where the drivers of the cars may be able to see it without averting their gaze too far. I don't know how to say that, but can we move it nearer to the streets or it won't be causing accidents for people trying to see it? I think it couldn't be closer than 10 feet from the property line. So we could make sure that it's no more than 10 feet from the property line. Well, can we give a waiver of that if it's a safety issue? Yes, this is a directional sign. It's a directional sign to some people downtown rather than an advertising sign. If it's less than half the distance of the setback, then it has to be a monument sign. It can't be a freestanding sign and we don't have a design for a monument sign. I'm worried that people's eyes are gonna be diverted from the intersection where people may be crossing the street, et cetera. But I'm just one place. Huh? I've just said, oh, thank you for your comment. But I don't, you know, I think it's, they've looked at the, I think she's putting, Christine is offering to put it as close as the rules allow and they haven't asked for a waiver of those rules yet or asked for an exception to the rules. Is anybody else worried about that safety issue? Maybe I'm just gonna ask for it. I'm not, I'm not worried about that one. Hello? Ms. Marshall. I may, I changed the color of my hand, but I'm not sure it helped. It's still really hard to see. All right. In a way, this is a side comment, but I was completely baffled by these papers because there was no explanation of what was going on. I mean, this has nothing to do with, do you drive South permit? I didn't know why that was here or why it was labeled North University in Northampton. I mean, I just, it would have been helpful to have a memo from the department and maybe also from Mr. Roberts or a better explanation of what this public meeting is about. I apologize for not including a memo. My apologies. Okay. Cause I thought it was like wrong and didn't accord at all with the plan that we were being shown. And I like these signs. I think it's great. I wonder though, if somebody could just show maybe an answer to or partial in relation to Ms. Greenbound's comment, where is the property line on this, on this site plan? Is it the kind of dashed on long and short dashes? So right along the sidewalk is the property line. I believe it's along the sidewalk. If Rob can bring up the site plan, I think you can see it. Can you, I can't see. There we go. Can you scroll down? Yes, South. See the property line? It is along the back of the sidewalk. And the original sign was supposed to be 10 feet from the property line. And so we're saying this sign. Right. And so where you're proposing to put the directional sign farther to the right from the intersection. So, so again, to Ms. Greenbound's comment, people won't be approaching the stoplight or the crosswalk when they're, you know, right next to the sign. So would your suggestion be to move it closer to the intersection? I'm just, in case it hadn't been clear, the sign is not going to be located where we're looking at it right now. That's correct. Yep. Yeah. So the sign would be, if you're looking at this site plan, the sign would be at the, about where the word building canopy is, but closer to the lot line. Is that about right? It's actually go farther to the right, Rob, if you can. Right about there. No? Yes, right about there. So it's just like where 52, 50.2 is roughly in there. Okay. Got it. All right. Any other comments? Oh, Mr. Henry. In the actual rendering with pictures, there are trees. Is there any concern? Do they have to cut any trees for the sign to be visible? No. I don't think those trees are there actually. Okay. I think that's a plan from when they first proposed it. It's not an actual picture of the place today. I think it was a rendering when they first proposed the building. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Roshevitz. Yeah. Just a question and a comment. I was wondering if the location of the sign was moved as a recommendation from somebody or if it was found to be a better location? And then the comment would be as if we are moving the sign, then just make sure, and this is more for Rob, just document tonight's meeting indicating that it did move from the original approval so that when we look at it in the future, we'll know that this was why it moved and where it went and without having to do a whole new site plan, but at least some indication that this was discussion. So Dave, to solve that issue, I'll take the site plan that I showed you and I'm gonna put my own little markings on it. So that would be good enough for you. Okay. Yeah, exactly. But just for the future, when it goes to somebody's desk, they're gonna say, well, that's not what was approved and then we need some record of it. So that often gets lost if you need it. And to respond to Ms. Marshall, I think we could put together a memo that basically talks about what I talked about tonight and that was missing from the packet and I apologize for that. And I would thank you, that'll be good to have. I wonder if it is also advisable for Mr. Roberts to say, or maybe this would be in the memo that he's giving up any claim or right to have a sign. This is instead of. So. Well, I think. You can't have another one without amending the site plan, right? In fact, he's giving it up. Right. So basically it's being documented from this public meeting that he is indeed giving it up and he also gave us his verbal and written approval to do so. So basically this isn't any different from say, the applicant coming back to discuss like a amended site plan or management plan or something like that. And usually the way we do it then is just kind of the same way document it from the verbal discussion in the minutes and just go from there. But I agree with Mr. Westgevitz of having like an updated site plan that shows where the location of the sign would go as well as this memo. So we can at least have some documentation that those changes were made and that's what's going to stand. Okay. This is the black sharpie technique. I was thinking red, but you know, black's also a good color. I don't know. Whatever works. Yeah, I don't know. A very quick question, last comment. Yes, Mr. Does this person reserve the right later on if he gets negative feedback about the sign being on his property and he doesn't like it or his customers doesn't like it? Does he reserve the right to come back and see you guys have to move it? Well, he technically could come back and discuss the condition again, but it'd have to be in a similar format. So he would have to come back to discuss was it condition 61 Chris or 51 or something like that? Do you, Mr. Henry, do you mean if he decided not to have the sign on his property and to have it moved somewhere else? Yes. I think someone would come and tell the ZBA that the sign was no longer going to be on this property. And then the town would have to figure out another location for the sign. And that may or may not involve going back to the ZBA. If we went back to the original location, which is in the state right of way, we probably wouldn't come back to the ZBA to show the new location, but we would maybe come back to tell you that it wasn't going to be in the location that I proposed this evening. So I don't mean now. I'm saying if we approve it and it is placed on the property two or three years later, can he come back and say, you guys need to remove the sign. I don't want to go on to my property. I think he could say that. He would have to come back before the board in a public meeting and request it. He couldn't do it. I don't think he could do it on his own. No, he can't. He has to come back before the board because of the condition and have the board re-approve a new location or to remove the sign per the condition. Yep. I think that's right. Yeah, I don't think he can just do it on his own. Ms. Marshall. I assume the town will be responsible for maintaining the sign or replacing it if a vehicle takes it out. Yes. Okay. All right. Any other comments, questions, concerns? I think we just have to approve this modification. There's no findings that have to be made or anything else, right? It's just a simple. That's great. A simple majority, I believe is what you need. Public meeting, that's right. So if there's no further discussion, I would entertain a motion to approve the request to approve the design of a freestanding and monument sign and the placement as identified in the documents that Ms. Brestrick gave us. All right. In second, I've heard two motions. So I heard at the first and the second. Any further discussion? If not, this requires three votes, a straight majority. Chair votes aye. Mr. Meadows. Aye. Mr. Henry. Aye. Ms. Marshall. Aye. Ms. Greenbaugh. Aye. Motion carries five or nothing. Motion passes. Thank you very much. Thank you. Next order of business is general public comment period on any matters not before the board tonight. Everybody's gone home and gone to bed. There's no intention of anybody but us. So I think that's not, we're gonna just go past that. Other business not anticipated within 48 hours. What we need to do is just talk about what we have coming up, Rob. Can you talk about the scheduled hearings for the rest of the summer and the first part of the fall? Well, as I mentioned, we have only stuff scheduled until September. So September 14th, nothing, 28th. We have this continued public hearing for North Pleasant Street. August 10th, I didn't mean to go out of order with the dates, by the way. So August 10th, our next meeting, we do have a 40B training with KP law. So that's gonna be at 7 p.m. All members are encouraged to attend. So you can learn about the 40B process for somebody who's very knowledgeable about that. And that will start at 7 p.m. instead of 6 p.m. on that day. And if somebody is unable to make it, we obviously can make a recording available to you. So that'll still be recorded. And then any presentation slides will be sent to you as well. And then, sorry, my dog is whining in the background. He has to go outside too. And then August 28th is the first date of our Shootsbury Road solar public hearing. It is a 45 acre site. I believe they're generating it around, I think it's like nine megawatts. So it's a pretty large site. And that hearing date is scheduled for August 28th. It's August 24th, excuse me. Sorry, August 24th at 6 p.m. And that's the only hearing we have scheduled for that date so far. Otherwise, Mr. Chair, we don't have anything else scheduled besides those three meeting dates. So. And Rob, when do we think that the 40B application will be before us? So I heard rumors. That's over November. I heard rumors that they're trying to submit maybe mid-August. So that means we might have to hold a public hearing in September if they decide to submit. It's still kind of up in the air because they have to do a few changes to their plans. Like they have to, supposedly they have a high water table on site, high groundwater table, so they might have to put in more cut and fill. So that might take some time in terms of re-engineering their plans. But otherwise, that's all we've heard so far. It's still up in the air, but yeah. The key thing here is for members to know is that once they file their package, it's the clock starts ticking. And we can both agree to delay a hearing beyond the timeframe, but the law says that we have to start hearing it within I think within 60 days. So we can come to an agreement on a different time, but. Yeah. But they can also agree to an extension, Steve. And the Valley CDC has been very good about working with Amherst in the past and 40B. So I'm sure if we approach them reasonably, they'd be willing to work around the deadlines with us. All this goes to say, if you're gonna be here, go to the 40B hearing because 40B training because it's a different process than we have ever been through. But then you guys have been through it. I don't think anybody except me has been through a 40B. Were you on that grade? A lot of us. Oh, you, Hilly, I bet in the past you were, sure. Okay. I'm well, I've been there, I've done that. Yeah. I agree with you on that. And I was wondering how many of us, other than the two of us, I'm not certain if Sarah was on that solar training that we had. And if there's a way to repeat that before we have the solar come up. I'm trying to train you by Jonathan Murray about a solar bylaw, like. Yeah. No, no, no, not about the solar bylaw. They're Massachusetts laws that govern our approach to solar. Is there a video? Do you have a video of that meeting? Yeah, it should be, you know, it'd be good as Rob, you could send out the date of that. That was a ZBA meeting. Public meeting, if I remember correctly, it should be on the webpage. I'll have to look into that and see what date that meeting was and see if I could find the video. I know the YouTube videos go back as far as 2020. So it should be on YouTube. We can easily find it and download it. It was going the year ago, so if I went to it. Yeah, so we should have it then. I can circulate that date and video link to everybody so they have it. That'd be good. All right. But there's a lot of, I don't know how far along the working group is with the solar working group. Christine, do you know? Well, ideally they would like to submit something to the town manager by September 1st, but I'm not sure that that's actually going to happen. But if you're really interested in seeing where they are with it, there's going to be a presentation of the solar by-law at next Wednesday's planning board meeting, kind of just to introduce the planning board to the idea of the solar by-law. It's still in a draft form though. All right. So not exactly a public hearing. If we want to go to that meeting and hear it, do we have to post it for our board with more than three of us go? I think that would be a good idea for the three of you go. What's that? What was your question, Christine? We need to post it if we want to go to the planning board meeting and there are more than three of us. Well, they're virtual and we'd go as attendees. As long as you don't say anything, you can go. But if you start talking and talking among yourselves about what is being said, then it would be considered a meeting. Question of deliberation, right? Yeah. But we could ask questions if we have questions without violating open meeting. It might be a good idea if you told Rob Wachilla that you were planning to come and then if he finds that more than three of you are going to be there, then he would post the meeting 48 hours in advance. Yep. That's if there's only three or more people going. Because that's when it is constituted as having a quorum. All right. Okay. All right. Any other questions? Any other new business? If not, I would entertain a motion to adjourn. Don't vote. Don't vote. Don't vote. Don't vote. Don't vote. Don't vote. Don't vote. Don't vote. Don't vote. Am I taking away his job? No, no, no. We'll flip a coin each time, Hilda. Huh? We'll flip a coin each time. Okay, I'm down to 1%. That's why I don't know. Well, you get the whole next meeting. I forgot to put a cable with all the stuff I just said. Motion to adjourn has been made and seconded. This is not a debatable motion. The roll call vote is required. I just got to be held up. What? Start with Hilda. Oh yeah. All right, Hilda. Mr. Meadows. Aye. Mr. Henry. Aye. Ms. Marshall. Aye. All right, we are adjourned. Thank you guys. Thank you. Good night, everyone. Good night. Bye.


Good morning everybody. Good morning. Happy Monday. Yeah. A director Burke. Do we have all of the staff? Call now. Yes, all staff is present. We can start whenever you're ready. Great. Thank you so much. Well, we will get started. We'll call this meeting to order at eight a.m. Secretary, if you could do a roll call. Yes, chair wants here. Thank you. Board member Walsh. I think you muted board member Walsh. Here. What number right here. Great. Thank you. And just as a reminder to all the committee members to mute our phones, microphones, when we're not speaking. So we will now take public comments on item number two public comment. If you wish to make a comment via zoom, please raise your hand. If you wish to make a comment via zoom, please raise your hand. If you wish to make a comment via zoom, please raise your hand. If you wish to make a comment via zoom, please raise your hand. Secretary A. Do we have any live or email or voicemail public comments? We have no public comments. Great. So we will move to item 3.1 director Burke. If you could introduce the item. Sure. Thank you, chair Watts and members of the subcommittee. Our item 3.1 is our water and wastewater demand fee study study. We will now move to item 3.1. We will now move to item 4. And water administration. Kimberly Zanina will be leading off the presentation. Good morning. Chair Watson members of the committee. Today we are going to be going through the water and wastewater demand fee study. You did receive a copy of that. It was posted with the agenda. For your review. Pretty early last week, actually. I'm going to hand it over to him now. Good morning, chair Watts, members of the committee. Pleasure to be here with you this morning. Are we going to do a screen share on your end, Kimberly? There it is. All right. I think it was. Mid December was the last time we were with you to talk about demand fees as well as with the water and wastewater rates. So we wanted to summarize where we are today. We have made some refinements as we've gone through staff review and made some tweaks along the way. So this will probably look pretty familiar to you, but the specific numbers are a little bit different. If we could move to the next slide, please. As part of this presentation, we'll talk about the demand fee framework and the methodology for calculating the fees. One of the significant things that we did with this update was to update the water use factors for both water and wastewater. Because of the drought and the subsequent. Continued curtailment in water demands. We have seen a pretty significant reductions in water use with the rest of the. I think that the city is also seeing that on the commercial side as well. So we'll talk about that a bit. And then we'll present the fees and the fee calculations. And then also compare those fees. For you before summarizing next steps. So next slide, please. So as you know, the, the water and wastewater demand fee. Often called capacity charges in the industry are one time fees paid by new development at the time of connecting to the water or wastewater systems. Occasionally there is an incremental fee. Imposed if somebody is enlarging the size of their business or something they need a larger water meter. Sometimes it could be an additional fee paid at that time, but for the most part, it's not an additional fee. It's not an additional fee. It's not an additional fee. It's not an additional fee. It's not an additional fee. It's not an additional fee. It's not an additional fee. It's not an additional water meter. Sometimes it could be an additional fee paid at that time, but for the most part, it's it's new development and new connections to the, to the systems. These fees were last calculated in, in 2014. Through a study similar to what we're doing right now. However, the fees are adjusted annually. Core inflation basis based on changes in the construction cost index. And the other thing that we're going to talk about is the cost of the fees is that they not exceed the estimated reasonable, reasonable cost of providing the services for which they're imposed, which basically means the cost of capacity in, in the systems. So it's a pretty broad in general standard that exists for demand fees. Next slide, please. The basic formula. For calculating demand fees with the bio methodology. We're looking at some of the others as well, but basically with the demand fee methodology that we're using here, we're looking at the present value of existing facilities and dividing by the units of development or the amount of demand, the existing demand within, within the utility systems. So it's, it's really looking at the investment that's been made in the infrastructure that is being used to serve existing facilities and chain charging new customers alike amount. The attributes and benefits of this methodology is that it's, it's really best applied in situations where most of the development has occurred most of the infrastructures in place. And so it's more in fill type development where new development is using capacity that's available in the existing infrastructure system rather than expanding into an entirely new area. And so it's more in fill type development. And so it's more in fill type development. Occasionally there may be expansions into new areas where new subdivision is going on. And in those cases, that development might also be charged to extend a pipeline or add a storage tank or something like that. If that's specifically required for that development. But in the, in the situation within the city of Santa Rosa, this is really the best methodology. It's a very common and well accepted methodology within. Development associations understand this methodology. It's generally pretty well accepted. It does not rely on capital improvement plans or master plans. It's not forward looking, looking at the cost of new facilities, but really relying on fixed asset records of historical cost of facilities, the way they've been financed as well as demands in the system rather than anticipating the amount of growth and so on. And so it's really, it's really, it's really, it's really, it's really simple from that aspect to calculate. And because this is really a reimbursement fee is development pays the demand fees. They're really reimbursing the utilities for investments that they've already made. There aren't the same accounting requirements. You don't need to show that the money is going to be spent on specific projects. It just goes back into a capital fund and being used to make sure that the system has needed, but it's much easier that way from an accounting and reporting standpoint. Next slide, please. So this table summarizes the demand fee calculations for both water and wastewater systems. The water is shown in blue. The wastewater, we were looking both at the local collection system within San Rosa as well as the regional reuse system that provides treatment and disposal for not only the city, but some of the neighboring communities as well as, as you know, the top part of this table summarizes the fixed asset valuation. What we do is we look at the fixed asset records from the city's accounting system item by item basis. We look at the book value and the, excuse me, the original cost as well as book value. But what we do is we take that original costs. We escalate it up to a current dollar value based on inflation and the age of that facility. And then we depreciate that back down. So it reflects what we call this a replacement cost less depreciation. So it's not the historical value, but a replacement cost value, but it is depreciated. So one of those brings the value up. The other one brings it down, but there's still a little bit of a net change between that. So we can see this as being summarized by major asset categories. Although in doing this, we are looking at an asset by asset basis and there's, I recall, right something like 2000 different assets in the system. So it's pretty detailed. We then make some adjustments to that valuation. We recognize that much of the systems, particularly the, the regional reuse system has been financed through debt obligations. So we add in the present value of pass that issuance costs as well as interest costs. Those are part of the cost of acquiring the assets. So we add those in. And then to the extent that there is outstanding principle on that debt, we subtract that out. It reflects the fact that you haven't yet paid for the entire asset yet.  And great payers are paying that debt as well. And then to the extent that money has been earmarked for several projects in your different funds and reserves, we add that in that dollar in the bank is worth, you know, what it would be as a, as a pipe in the ground. If it's been earmarked and dedicated for capital purposes, so we wouldn't, we don't add in the operating reserve, for example. So we add all of these up to come up with the total value of the system on this by evaluation methodology. We then divide by the current system demands. And those are shown here on the basis of those are shown here in terms of a million gallons a day. And then we express that in terms of 1000 gallons per day, as well as 1000 gallons per month. And it's really the 1000 gallon per month number that is used for calculating the demand fees. So you can see at the bottom of this table increases in the fee amounts for both water and wastewater. So this is the amount of water. However, these are offset by the reductions in the demand for different types of development that we're seeing. So this isn't the amount of the fee that's being changed here. But really reflects that component on the valuation alone. Go to the next slide, please. So focusing on water for a moment here. This slide summarizes the water use factors. So what we did was we looked at annual water usage. For the peak month of each year for the last four years that were available to us. So that was 2016 through 2019 looking at the peak month of water use, which is generally July or August. And then for the different types of residential customers, the amount of water that's used on an average basis for each of those. So for single family homes, there are a lot of different types of water. So we're looking at very large lots, medium to large lots of, and then small lots. Those very large lots are an acre or larger. The medium or large lots are 6,000 feet up to an acre. And the small lots are under 6,000 square feet. We also broke out as a separate category this time, and for larger department or condominium complexes, those with four dwelling units or more, we looked both with and without irrigation. Because typically they have a separate irrigation, but, but not always there are some exceptions. So we, these are slightly different categories, but it's more refined and a better estimator of water use for the different types. We also looked at the larger accessory dwelling units, ADUs, senior resident occupancy type housing, senior housing. And the city is also looking at having some sort of a small, high density apartment units that might be very small. And so we looked at that as a category. And we lumped all of those kind of into a single group because we believe they have similar use characteristics. For the non-residential accounts, these fees are charged on a per 1,000 gallon per month basis. So for each proposed project, there is an estimate of what their water use or wastewater flow will be. And then it's charged based on how many 1,000 gallons per month that demand would be. So this is just representing that 1,000 gallon per month and either gallon per day or in that gallon per day term. As I said, these, for the residential customers, which is based on the residential types of dwelling, we saw use reductions generally vary for the different types of residential, but generally in the range of 20 to 40% reduction in the people our use relative to the last rate study. So, or fee study. So pretty significant reduction. Go to the next slide, please. This summarizes the current proposed water demand fees for the different types of residential development, as well as the non-residential at the bottom. And you can see the reductions for most of the residential categories. There are a couple of exceptions where they go up and somewhat, but many of these are going down. Actually, there are going, many of them going up a bit, a few of them going down. So, different when we look at the combined fee. And I think that is a better summary. We'll see that in a couple of slides. But again, for the residential, it's based on the type of residential, the size and type of residential development. And then the individual calculation for the non-residential. Looking at the wastewater now on the next slide. Again, these are the, we look at the average dry weather flow or the, basically the wastewater that's being generated by each home or dwelling unit for the residential customers. Again, we looked at the time period from 2016 through 2019. Here we looked at the sewer cap as representing that, that sewer flow that's being generated from the households. And you can see the flow rates here in both in gallons per day as well as 1000 gallons per month. And again here, we saw significant reductions across the residential customers generally in the 25 to 40% use reduction range as we updated this. And then in the next slide, you can see the fee amounts. And this is the one I was thinking of. This is one where all of, on the wastewater side, all of the residential customers will see some sort of a reduction in the demand fee amounts. And even though you can see the commercial fee is increasing on this slide, it is offset by, as we're looking at estimated flows being generated from commercial development. Those are probably also going down there looking at adjustments to the usage factors for calculating those based on recent history. So many of those customers will likely see reductions in demand. The next slide summarizes the combined water and wastewater fees that are both current and proposed. So it just adds the water and wastewater together. And here it shows that the dollar change as well as the percentage change in the fee amounts. And you can see across the board, we have have reductions in the residential fees. Again, it'll depend on the specific characteristics for the, for the non-residential. That would be determined on a case by case basis. And if we move to the next slide, once we calculated the fees, we also looked at, and this is new information. We didn't have this last time. I think it was requested. We looked at some of the neighboring communities and what they charge for similar fees for water and wastewater service. So Petaluma, Windsor, Healdsburg, and Kintadi are all listed here as well as the current combined fee for Santa Rosa and then the proposed. And you will be at the low end of the spectrum under the proposed fees. And this is for a typical standard single family lot over 6,000 square feet, three quarter inch meter. So we did that comparison. The conspicuously absent neighboring city as well as neighboring city is runner park. And we tried to look at theirs. Their fee structure is very complicated. They have different parts of town are, are charged different fee amounts and they have all sorts of different factors going into it. As well as other facilities sort of all lumped together. So we couldn't really extract that out to, to provide a comparison for that, but you can see the other cities up and down the valley. That you can compare with Santa Rosa. So on the next slide, I think I'm going to turn it back over to Kimberly to talk about some of the outreach activities that have been going on and looking at next steps as we move forward with these fees. So we just wanted to give you an update on the, on the outreach that we've been doing to the development community. We have lists of contractors and developers that we reach out to every year when we do that annual inflation. And also that planning and economic development use for all of their outreach as well. So we've combined all those lists. We have created an FAQ for those, these fees so that we're answering those questions about why pieces are going up, but overall why pieces are going down as well. We have the current website updated with all of that information after this. Now that we have posted the report, we'll also post the draft report to that. We have given the FAQs to the internal departments. And then we have also sent a letter to each one of those contractors and developers. That do business in the city with a copy of those FAQs, as well as emailing directly. The several associations around the city that work with the contractors, developers and engineers. We have offered to come to any of their meetings if they would like us to and do presentations for their groups. And so I'm just waiting to hear back to see if any of them are interested in that offer. Next is just the timeline for the. Request to adopt the new demand fee schedule and the report. We will be, we, well, we would have been with you already. Sorry. On December 15th of 2020, we brought this to you.  As we worked through the reports and doing the finalizing of all of the numbers. Today we are asking you to consider recommendation to the full board of public utilities. We will be in study session on May 6th. And then we will be asking for BPU to make a recommendation to the city council on May 20th. And then we are still confirming. Unfortunately right now we're also in budget process for the city. So dates are kind of moving and shifting based on that. And so we are still working on what dates exactly we will be in front of the city council. But then the next plan will be a study session at city council. And then the considerations for them to adopt the new fee schedule. And with that it is recommended by Santa Rosa water staff and consultants that the board of public utilities budget subcommittee recommend the proposed water and wastewater demand fee update and proposed demand fee schedule to the board of public utilities. Thank you so much for the presentation. We will open it up for any board member questions or comments at this time. Or member Walsh. Yes. Thank you, chair. I do have some comments on the, on the calculations. And I appreciate it. First is whether and to what extent. It looks like we're taking the next steps. And then we're depreciating that to, to the current. I understand that calculation. Methodology was wondering if some things are included or excluded, such as. Contributed capital from other governments. And also. Does that come out of the calculation because that was not paid for. And by the ratepayers historically. And then also whether and to what extent the PG. Reimbursement is included or excluded from those calculations or at least the share that theoretically could have or should have gone. To the utilities. And then another question is. We're demand fees charged for the rebuilds. Of the properties impacted by the fires. Okay. I'm going to start with that last one first. I don't believe that if somebody was just rebuilding their home after being destroyed in the fire, they already paid for a connection. And so there would not be a new demand fee. Charge. Unless they were building something different, you know, that might, might cause an upcharge. But typically that would not occur. In terms of the fixed asset valuation. We were looking at all the major asset categories. We generally exclude some categories like. A category. For meters because everybody is paying for their own meter. Basically. And, and, you know, things like that. I'm not familiar with the, the contributed capital. If sometimes the utility acquires. Facilities. Not through charging a fee and building it themselves, but sometimes it develops. Or might come in and say, I'm going to build a storage tank for you. And then they might get, you know, a fee credit for actually installing facilities for the city. Historically that may have happened. But that's still the utility has acquired those assets. That's part of the system. So the value of that would be in the fixed asset records. It should be. And we would, we would include that. If it's a governmental, you know, if you got a grant that paid for some facilities, again. The utility did acquire that. It's part of the fixed asset records. And that value would also be reflected as the total. It would be, I would imagine it would be very difficult to try and. Tease that individual piece out if there was a grant funded asset in there. But it is part of the overall system valuation. Gotcha. And that, and that makes sense again. I'm just checking. So, and it would have to be a very large contribution, like a huge grant. Normally that would apply to a smaller water system. It's exactly. Yeah. Great. And then I'm, I'm familiar with them. This is my first question. Through any of this. So. Hope you will be patient there. There's average dry water flow. For wastewater feed calculation. Can you. Can you help me out with how, how that's different between dry and wet. Sure. That's, that's a good question. Because we're looking at winter water use to determine an average dry weather flow. It sounds very contradictory. And I'm not familiar with the, this is my first time through, through any of this. So it sounds very contradictory. And so I understand the question. So it's a good one. So if you think about in the, in the summertime in dry conditions in July and August, we don't have rain. So there is no. Inflown infiltration from, from a saturated ground. That comes into the sewer system. So the systems generally get a lot of seepage coming in during the, the winter months. And so when we're looking at what is the, the flow. On an aggregate basis generated by the customers, by the homes and businesses. We look at a dry weather flow because that's actually the sewage, the wastewater coming out of those and not affected by that infiltration. But when we're looking at the customer level and trying to determine how much. Waste water is generated. We look at winter water use. When those customers tend not to be irrigating. So whatever the water use going into the home is, we can assume is the sewer flow coming out of the home. And, and so it represents this, the sewer flow being generated by that home or business, which when you add all that together ought to be approximately equal to dry weather flow. So that, that, that, that, that clicked. So it's the flip side of what we do with water. Where we say during the wet months, you're not watering outside. And then in waste water. During the, during the dry months. It's not outside water. It's not, it's not outside water coming into the plant. Right. Okay. Great. And then just the last question. So it, and I appreciate the model. I think we picked the right one, you know, the right methodology. And then. So there could be a capacity model. Then there could be a, you know, net present value of, of, of a rate per contributions to date for capital assets. And I think we picked the right one. But, but it may be dependent. And do we have to change capacity in the real near term? So how much extra capacity do we have to accommodate development? Cause it looks like if that was going to be squeezed, we may have to go the extra step and use a capacity model. Does that make sense? Yeah. And, and I didn't, I, I didn't describe the other primary method. And let me do that very, very briefly for you. The, the other methodologies, often called an incremental cost methodology. And it's looking at the cost of adding future facilities, building new facilities to accommodate the expansion of the system to accommodate new development. And that really applies. It makes more sense when you have a, a rapidly growing community where the infrastructure is also needing to expand, to accommodate that new growth that's, that's on the horizon. And that takes a different look. It, it is reliant more on the, the master plans that identify the facilities that are needed, service level standards that say we need so many gallons of storage to accommodate a home, or we need so much treatment capacity per home and you get into all of those sizing standards. You also need to look at, well, how much of this is, is really for expansion versus correcting a deficiency that exists. So it becomes a much more complicated analysis. When we look at your master plans now and where you are in terms of the development of the city, most of the, um, uh, a couple of expenditures at this point are rehabilitating the system because of a aging infrastructure or upgrading to a new treat. You know, for example, a treatment standard, you're moving to UV treatment and wastewater, which is a change in the standard and not so much expansion requirement. And so, you know, from, from that perspective, this buying methodology is, is a much more appropriate, um, approach for the city at this, at this time. Gotcha. And then so capacity squeeze in the, in the short term or within the term that we would normally apply a rate study. It's not going to be an issue. Is that, is that okay? No, no. And the, the, the main reason for that, well, I think there's two reasons. One is, is where you are in terms of growth and development of the city. Um, you're, you're getting some, uh, but not, you know, huge amounts, but, but also the, the demand per connection has come down because people are using less water. Now that's freeing up existing capacity. And so you're able to accommodate additional homes because of that freed up capacity. That's fantastic. Thank you very much. I appreciate your explanation of this and walking us through it. I think you picked the right method and your description makes sense. So thank you very much. Thank you. And I'll add a couple things which are that, um, we did not do any sort of, um, consideration for the PG&E funds for this study. Um, at, especially when we started, we didn't even know how much the PG&E settlement would be. It's still very unclear if water will receive any of that funding. What is included, however, is the, um, investment we made in the infrastructure for the recovery, um, from the fires. So those, those projects were fully funded by water. We will be receiving funding back, um, from FEMA, you know, as we're slowly getting, you heard, we've gotten about half of it so far. Um, but all of that and the improvements to those assets do get included into, um, the, the demand fee that we're doing now. And then in addition in the rebuild area, really the only, um, demand fees that we collected would have been for ADUs that were larger than 750 square feet. Um, unless any of them were built before that rule came into play. So there were, um, several, um, properties that chose to add ADUs, uh, accessory dwelling units to their properties. Uh, and those were really the only demand fees that were paid because they were an expansion of the existing use on site, but the rest of them, once you make a connection to the system and you've paid for that connection to the system, you do not pay an additional demand fee to rebuild or, um, restructure as long as you're not going to bring more capacity needs to the system. Gotcha. Well, and I really appreciate that. And thanks, thanks too for going out to that FEMA money. I think the first step is to get the outside resources to come in and help make as whole as a community. And we've done that through multiple players as we could. So thanks very much. Thanks very much. It is a significantly large process. We're getting there slowly. I could imagine and I appreciate your, your walking, walking me through this as a, as a newer member. Um, thanks, thanks very much. That's all the questions that I have, uh, chair Watts. Thank you. Board member Walsh. Board member, right? Uh, yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, uh, Mark, I just wanted to point out, you know, 15 years ago when I was on the staff, we were looking at charts that showed, uh, that our dry weather wastewater flow was going to be 24 million gallons a day by now. And our water usage was going to be much more. And I do do, you know, conservation, water use efficiency and tightening up our system. We pretty much are, uh, at least from the plant standpoint, our dry weather flow flow is the same as it was 15 years ago, 20 years ago. So we have all sorts of capacity in our system. And just for example, our digesters at the plant, I think we have five of them out there. And I think we only use two or three of them. And that allowed us to do, uh, add on all the grease and oil stuff, come into the digester to make an additional, uh, power just because they were sitting there unused. So, um, and at least in my view, uh, capacity isn't going to be an issue for Senator Lisburg quite some time. And I really appreciate that comment because it points to, you know, some of the, some of the work that we do that others may not understand. We have to do the conservation work. And I think the answer is yes. And it really, really helps out. Um, years ago, I was auditing, uh, sanitation, sanitation functions and a plant operator that you might be familiar with. I wanted to know where the fine bubble diffuser was. And he told me to put on scuba gear, but, uh, I think that I had to look at it to check it off my list. Um, it evidently, I, I, I, uh, I saw the bubbles and said that was good enough for me, but, um, some of these assets go on a long time. And it's the life, the lifespan of the assets. Um, and, and sometimes those estimates change too. Um, based on capacity, but, uh, I think doing conservation and maintenance work on our assets. Um, in the long run, even though the annual maintenance is expensive, I think it'd serve us well. And these kinds of studies, um, these kinds of studies prove it. Thank you. Uh, board member right. Was that all your comments and questions? Okay. Thank you. Uh, thank you for all of your questions and clarifications. Um, my only question was, I know you said the last time this was updated was 2014. Do we have any sort of legal requirements of when the demand fees have to be updated and how often? Um, I don't think there is a legal requirement. Our recommendation is that they, um, be reviewed and updated every three to five years, depending on the changes that are, that are going on. And I think the city is pretty much followed that, that recommendation to do the annual adjustments for inflation. Uh, just kind of keeps it from, from drifting too far. It keeps it in line with, with changes in costs. Um, but over a longer period of time, uh, it can be more, more problematic. Um, I've got one client right now that let theirs go for about 15 years and, and the divergence over time, because so many different things changing is, has been pretty dramatic. So I think the city's current practice. I know we're about a year behind schedule, but you know, lots going on in recent years for y'all. Um, uh, is, is right online or with where you, you should be with it. Great. Thank you. And I'm glad to see that our, you know, we're able to lower these rates and hopefully that'll encourage more much needed housing and development in our, in our community, although we, as we've stated, it's been a little slower than I think, um, we would like, but really appreciate all the work on this. Um, and if that is the end of that, I will open this up for public comment. If you wish to make a comment via zoom, please raise your hand. If you're dialing in via telephone, please dial star nine to raise your hand. Secretary, do we have any live or pre-recorded email or voicemail public comments? We have no public comments. Great. With that, I will entertain a motion to move this recommendation. I move that we, um, take the, um, demand fee update to the BPU at the next possible session. I will second that motion. Thank you. I'm motioned by a board member rights. Seconded by board member Walsh. Um, secretary, that could we have a roll call or. I'm sure what a roll call. Yeah. On this. Yes. Two months. I. I'm motioned by a board member Walsh. I. Number right. Hi. With that, it is unanimous for this recommendation. And I believe that concludes our meeting today. So we will bring this to the next, um, BPU session. Um, and follow the schedule. Thank you so much for your, um, all of your time and work on this. And we will adjourn the meeting. Thank you, chair Watts. Thank you everyone. Bye folks.


Dialogue 20 of the Dialogues of the Gods by Lucien. Translated by Howard Williams. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Dialogue 20. The Judgement of Paris. Zeus, Hermes, Hera, Athena, Aphrodite, Paris, or Alexander. Stage Directions, read by Todd. Paris, read by Erin White. Aphrodite, read by Sandra. Sonia S. Athena. Hera, read by Phon. Hermes, read by Owen Cook. Zeus, read by Alan Mapstone. Take this affore here, Hermes, and high to Phrygia, to the presence of the son of Priam, the cowherd. He is tending his cows on the gargoyle summit of Ida. And say to him, Paris, Zeus be due, since you are yourself a good-looking youth and clever in love matters, to decide for the goddesses here which is the most beautiful. And let the winner receive the apple as the prize of the contest. And now, goddesses, it is quite time for yourselves to set off to the presence of your judge. For, for my part, I decline for myself the office of arbitrator loving you as I do with equal affection. And if it were only possible, I would with pleasure see you all three winners. Especially, I do decline, as in giving the prize of beauty to one, I must certainly incur the hatred of the rest. For this reason, I am myself no suitable umpire for you. But this Phrygian youth, to whom you are going, is of princely birth, and is a relative of Ganymede here. In other respects, he is simple and mountainbred. No one would think him unworthy of such a spectacle. As far as I'm concerned, Zeus, even though you should point Momus himself our judge, I will cheerfully go to the exhibition, for indeed, what could he have to find fault with me? The man, however, will have to satisfy these goddesses, too. Oh, it's not we, Aphrodite, who have to fear. No, not though your own Aries should be entrusted with the arbitration. May we also accept this Paris, whoever he may be. And does this content you daughter, too? What say you? You turn away and blush. Is it the privilege of virgins, indeed, to be shy about such matters? But you nod ascent, however. Away with you all then, and see that you are not hard upon your judge, you who have been vanquished, and don't have any mischief inflicted on the youth. For it's not possible for you all to be equally beauties. Let us start off straight for Phrygia, I leading the way, and do you follow me without loitering, and keep up your spirits. I am personally acquainted with Paris. He is a good-looking youth, and amorous into the bargain, and very competent to judge in all such matters. He would not give a bad judgment. That is all fair, and you speak quite after my mind, that he is the right judge for us. Confidentially. But is he a bachelor, or has he some wife or other living with him? Not absolutely a bachelor, Aphrodite. How do you mean? Some lady of Ida appears to be keeping company with him, well enough in her way, but contrived and dreadfully boorish. However, he does not seem to be excessively attached to her. But, Pré, why do you put these questions? I asked quite indifferently. Hello. You, sir. There you are exceeding your commission in communicating with her in private. There was nothing extraordinary, Athena, and nothing against you. She only asked me if Paris is a bachelor. And, Pré, why is she so inquisitive about that? I don't know. But she says it occurred to her quite casually, and she had no purpose in asking. Well, is he unmarried? I think not. What, then?  The exact truth I am unable to say, but one must suppose that a young fellow like him would be eager to acquire fame in these things, and would like to be first in fighting. Aphrodite, pouting. Do you see? I don't find fault, nor charge you with talking to her on the sly, for such sort of quarrelousness is peculiar to people not over much pleased with themselves. It's not Aphrodite's way. Indeed, she asked me almost exactly the same question as she did you.  But while we are talking, we have already advanced far on our road, and taken leave of the stars, and in fact are almost opposite Phrygia. And now, in fact, I see Ida and the whole of Gargerus distinctly, and, if I am not deceived, Paris himself, your umpire. But where is he? For he is not visible to my eyes. Look carefully there to the left, Hera, not near the top of the mountain, but along the flank where the cave is, there where you see the herd. But I don't see the herd. Oh! Do you not see tiny cows in the direction of my finger, so advancing from the midst of the rocks, and someone running down from the cliff, with a shepherd's crook, and stopping them from scattering ahead? Now I see, if it really is he. But it is, and since we are now so near, let us, if you please, settle down on terra firma, and walk, that we may not quite disconcert him, by flying down all on a sudden from the clouds. You are right, so let us do, and now we have made our own descent. It is high time for you, Aphrodite, to advance and show us the way. For you, as is reasonable to expect, are well acquainted with the locality, having frequently, as report goes, come down here to Ancyces. These nears of yours, Hera, don't disturb me over much. Well, I will act as your guide and chaperone, for I myself, in fact, passed some time on Ida when Zeus, to be sure, was in love with the Phrygian boy, and often have I come here when sent down to look after the child. And when at length he was mounted on the eagle, I flew by his side with him, and helped to support my handsome charge. And if I recollect a right, from this rock here he snatched him up, for the boy happened to be piping to his flock at the moment, and flying down himself from behind, Zeus very lightly embraced him in his talons, and, grasping his turban with his beak, bore the lad aloft in a terrible state of alarm, as he was gazing on his ravisher with neck bent backwards. Then, picking up his shepherd's pipe, for he had let it fall on his fright, I would excuse me, for here is our umpire close at hand, so that I shall cost him. Good day to you, herdsmen. The same to you, young man. But who are you, and what is the purpose of your visit to us? What ladies are these you are conducting? For such town bells as they are, they are not fitted for roving over rough mountains. But they are not women, Paris, but it is Hera, and Athena, and Aphrodite, you see. And I, I am the God Hermes, Zeus has sent with them. But why do you tremble, and turn so pale? Don't be frightened, for there is nothing to be afraid of. He only bids you to be the judge of their beauty. For since, says he, you are a beautiful youth yourself, and clever in love matters, I entrust the judgment to you, and when you have read the inscription on the apple, you will know the prize of the contest. Ha! Come, let me see what it all means. Let the beautiful one take me, it says. How, pray, Sir Hermes, could I, mere mortal myself, and a simple peasant too, be a judge or so preternaturally wonderful, a spectacle, and one too great for poor herdsmen to decide upon. To judge in matters of such importance is rather for delicately nurtured persons, and courtiers, but, for my part, whether one she-goat be more beautiful than another she-goat, or one heifer surpasses another heifer in beauty, I could perhaps decide Secundum Atum, but these ladies are all equally beautiful, and I don't know how a man could wrench away his gaze and transfer it from the one to the other, for it will not easily unfix itself, but where it first rests to that part it clings and commends what's immediately before it, and even though it pass on to another part, that too it sees to be beautiful and lingers, and is caught by the adjoining charms, and in short their beauty has circumfused itself about me, and wholly taken possession of me, and I am vexed that I too cannot, like Argus, see with all my body. I think I should judge fairly if I give the apple to all, for, indeed, there is this difficulty besides, it happens that this lady is the sister and wife of Zeus, and that these are his daughters. How, I should like to know, is not the decision a hard one from this point of view too? I don't know about that, but it's not possible to shirk the commands of Zeus, I know. This one thing Hermes persuade them to, that the two defeated ladies be not angry with me, but consider the error to attach to my eyes alone. Hermes confers with the goddesses a part. They promise to comply with your request, and now it is high time for you to proceed with your judgment. I will do my best endeavours, for how can one help it? But this first I wish to know, will it be quite enough to view them as they are, or will it be necessary to make them undress for an accurate examination? That must be your part as judge to decide. Give your orders, how and in what way you like. How I like, really. I wish to see them undressed.  For your part make a thorough survey. As for me, I avert my face at once. Very well said, Paris, and I will be the first to undress, that you may perceive that I have not only white arms, and that I am not proud of having cow's eyes only, but that I am equally and proportionally beautiful all over. Ah, off with your clothes, too, Aphrodite. Don't let her undress, Paris, before she lays aside her cestus, for she is an enchantress, for fear she may be witch you by its means. Indeed, she ought not either to have appeared here so meretriciously tricked out, nor painted up with so many dyes and cosmetics for all the world as if she were, in fact, some lady of the demimonde, but have exhibited her beauty unadorned. Paris, turning to Aphrodite. They are quite right as to that cestus of yours, so you must Ian Doth it. Why, then, do you not also, Athena, doft that helmet of yours and display your bare head, instead of shaking that plumed crust and terrifying your judge? Are you afraid that fiercely glaring look about your eyes, seen without that frightful object, may be set down to you discredit? There, I have taken off this objectionable helmet for your satisfaction. There, too, is the cestus for yours. Well, let us undress. Paris, expressing in his features the utmost admiration. Oh, Zeus, worker of miracles, glorious vision, the beauty, the delight! Oh, how superb is the virgin goddess, and how right royally and with what dignity does this goddess hairer shine in all her splendour, and how truly right worthy of Zeus. But how sweetly does this goddess here Aphrodite look, and what a kind of pretty seducing smile she has. Well, now I have enough of this felicity, but if it is agreeable, I wish to have a look at each of them separately, in private, as at present I am really in doubt, and don't know on what part to fix my gaze for my eyes are distracted in every direction. Let us do as you wish is. Withdraw, then, you, too, and do you, hairer, remain. I will do so, and after you have had a good look at me, it will be time for you to consider other matters besides, whether the gifts at my disposal, in return for your vote, do not appear fair to you. For if, my dear Paris, you award me the prize of beauty, you shall be lord of all Asia. Our decision depends not on bribes. Now, withdraw, please, for whatever seems proper will have to be done hereafter. And now, Athena, do you approach. Here I am at your service, and in my turn, Paris, if you award to me the prize of beauty, you shall never come out of battle worsted, but always victorious, for I will make a warrior and a conqueror of you. I don't want war in fighting, Athena, for peace, as you see, at present, prevails both in Frigia and in Lydia, and my father's kingdom is free from war. But never mind, for you shall not be the worst for it, even though we do not give judgment for bribes. Well, now, put on your clothes again, and replace the helmet on your head, for I have seen enough. It is now time for Aphrodite to appear. Here I am at your elbow, and examine carefully each part of me, one by one, passing over nothing, but dwelling upon every one of my charms. And, if you will, my handsome youth, listen to this from me. I have reason to ask you to do so, for I have long ago observed you to be young and good-looking, of such sort that I doubt if all Frigia supports another like you. And I congratulate you on your good looks, but I blame you that you do not leave these lonely cliffs and these rocks, and go and live in the city, instead of wasting your sweetness on the desert air. For what enjoyment can such as you obtain from the mountains, and what satisfaction can your cows derive from your handsome face? You ought by this time to have married, not however some hoidonish and rustic girl, such as are the women of Aida, but some girl out of Hellas, from Argos, or from Corinth, or a Spartan lady, such as Helen, young and beautiful, and in no way inferior to myself, and, what is indeed most to the point, of an amorous disposition. For I tell you, if she were but only to see you, she would, I am sure, leave all, and give herself up soul and body to you, and would follow your fortunes, and live with you. But surely even you have heard something of her fame. Not a word, Aphrodite, and I should now be glad to hear from you a full account of her. She's the daughter of Leda, the famous beauty to whom Zeus flew down in the shape of a swan. What is she like to look at? Pale and fair, as the daughter of a swan might be expected to be, and delicate, like one bred in an egg, trained naked, for the most part, in the gymnasium, and skilled in the art of wrestling. And she has been, in a manner, so much indeed in request, that there has even been a war on her account. Theseus having run away with her, were not yet in her teens. Not indeed, but that, since she arrived at her majority, all the greatest princes of the Archaians met together to woo her, and Manolas, of the family of the Pelopidae, was preferred. If you wish it, I say, I will bring about the nuptials for you. What, with a girl already married? You are young and country-fied. I know, however, how affairs of this sort are to be managed. How? For I should like to know, too, myself. You will set out on your travels, as if with the purpose of seeing Hellas. And as soon as ever you arrive at Lekker Daemon, Helen shall see you, and from that moment it will be my business, that she shall fall in love, and run away with you. That's the very thing that seems to me hard to believe, that she should leave her husband, and be ready to sail off with a foreigner and a stranger. As far as that's concerned, have no fear, for I have two handsome boys, Desire and Love. Them I will give you to be guides of the way, and Love stealthily assailing her with all his might will compel the lady to fall in love, while Desire, shedding his whole influence over yourself, will render you what he is himself, an object of Desire and of Love, and I will be present in person to assist him. I will request of the Graces also to attend you, so that all of us together may persuade her. How it will all turn out is not clear, Aphrodite, but I am already in love with this Helen, and I fancy, I don't know how, I even see her, and am on my voyage straight for Hellas, and am staying at Sparta. Yes, and am now returning home with my wife, and I feel vexed I am not already engaged about all this. Don't fall in love, Paris, before you have rewarded your matchmaker and the bridesmaid with your favourable sentence, for it would be proper for me, too, to be with you as to bring our victory, and at once to celebrate your marriage, and to sing your triumphal odes, for it is in your own power to purchase everything, love, beauty, marriage, with this apple here. I am afraid that, after the verdict, you may forget me. Would you have me then give you my oath upon it? Not at all, but just promise me once again. I promise you, I say, to give over to you Helen for your wife, and that she shall run away with you and shall come to Ilium to you. I myself will certainly be present and will assist you in everything, and you will bring love and desire and the graces. Be sure of it, and I will take with me passionate longing and hymn besides. On these conditions, then, I give the apple to you. On these conditions receive it. END OF DIALOGUE XXI Hermes, read by Owen Cook Aries, read by phone Did you hear, Hermes, what threats Zeus uttered against us, how arrogant and absurd? If I should have a mind to it, says he, I will let down a chain from heaven, and you shall hang on it, and use all your force to pull me down, but you will labour in vain, for you will certainly not drag me down, whereas should I wish to drag it up, not only you, but both the earth and sea, I will fasten together and suspend in mid-air, and all the other menaces which surely you have heard. Now I, for my part, would not deny that he is superior to and stronger than any of us taken separately, but that he surpasses so many of us together, so that we could not wear him out, even though we brought to our aid earth and sea, that I could not believe. Fair speech, my dear Aries, for it's not safe to speak in this sort of way, for fear we reap some mischief from your idle talk. Why, do you suppose that I should say this to everyone, and not to you alone, who I knew can hold your tongue? But what, however, seemed to me especially ridiculous, as I listened while he was threatening, I could not possibly be silent about to you, why, I remember, no very long time before, when Poseidon and Hera and Athena rose up and conspired to seize him, and put him in fetters, how he resorted to all sorts of devices in his terror, and that, though there were only three against him. And if Thetis, in fact, out of pity, had not summoned to his aid Prioryeus of the Hundred Hands, he would have been bound hand and foot, his thunderbolt and all. As I thought of this, it constrained me to laugh at his fine grand eloquence. Hold your tongue, I say, for it is not safe, either for you to talk or for me to hear this sort of language. End of dialogue twenty-one. Dialogue twenty-two of the Dialogues of the Gods by Lucian, translated by Howard Williams. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information, or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Dialogue twenty-two. Pan urges his claims to be the son of Hermes, who is unwilling to admit his paternity. Hermes, read by Stefan. Pan, read by Erin White. How do you do, my father, Hermes? And how are you? But how am I your father? Are you not, perchance, the Kylenian Hermes? Certainly. How, then, are you my son? I am the result of an irregular intrigue. Your love, child. By heaven, rather, probably, of an intrigue of goats. For how could you be mine, with your horns, and such a snub nose, and shaggy beard, and cloven feet, and goatish legs, and tail upon your rump? Whatever sneers you aim at me, it is your own son, you render an object of reproach, my dear father, but yourself steal more for begetting and making such offspring. I am innocent of it all.  Have I, perchance, had an intrigue with a goat, without knowing it? You have not committed adultery with a goat, but recollect yourself, if you have never offered violence to a girl of gentle birth in Arcadia. Why do you bite your thumb to find an answer, and remain in doubt so long? I allude to Penelope, the daughter of Icarius. Then under what circumstances did she bring you into the world, resembling a goat, instead of myself? I will give you her very own story. Well, when she dispatched me to Arcadia, my child, said she, I am your mother Penelope of Sparta, and know you have a god, Hermes, the son of Maia and Zeus, for your father, and if you wear horns and have the legs of a goat, let not that circumstance distress you, for when your father visited me, he gave himself the form of a he-goat. To avoid notice, and for that reason, you have turned out very like that animal. In truth, I remember to have done something of the kind. Shall I, however, who pride myself so greatly on my good looks, and am still without a beard, have the reputation of being your father, and incur ridicule at the hands of all on account of my lovely offspring? Yet shall I not disgrace you, father, for I am a musician, and play the pipe with remarkable sweetness? And Bacchus can do nothing without me, but has made me his companion, and Thorsis-bearer for himself, and I lead the dance for him. And if you could see my flocks, too, what a large number I possess in the neighbourhood of Tigaea, and all over Parthenius, you would be greatly delighted. And I rule over all Arcadia. And, but lately, having fought on the side of the Athenians, I distinguished myself so much at Marathon, that even a prize of valor was awarded me, the cave under the Acropolis. In fact, if you go to Athens, you will know how great is the name of Pan there. But tell me, have you already married Pan? For that, I believe, is what they call you. Certainly not, father, for I am of an amorous turn, and could never be content to live with one wife. Then, no doubt, you make love to your she-goats. You are indulging in sarcasm. I keep company with Echo, and with Pities, and with all the mean adds of Bacchus, and am made much of by them. Do you know, however, how you could gratify me, my dear son, who ask a favour of you for the first time? Lay your commands upon me, father, and let us know them. Come to me, then, and affectionately embrace me. But see that you don't call me father, at least in the hearing of anybody else. End of dialogue 22 Dialogue number 23 of the Dialogues of the Gods by Lucian, translated by Howard Williams. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Dialogue number 23. Apollo remarks to Bacchus on the heterogeneousness of Aphrodite's children, while Bacchus exposes the character of Praepus. Dionysus, read by Todd. Apollo, read by T.J. Burns. What should we say? That Eros, Hermaphrodite, and Praepus are brothers by the same mother? Very unlike though they are in external form, and in their pursuits. For the one is altogether handsome and an archer, and invested with no small amount of power, rules overall, while the second is womanish and only half a man, and of ambiguous appearance.  As for the third, he is masculine beyond the bounds of all decency. Praepus, I mean. There is nothing to be surprised at, Apollo. For Aphrodite is not the cause of it, but the different fathers. Often, in fact, where the children are by the same father, of the same mother, they are like yourselves, but one a male, the other a female. Yes, but we are alike, and follow the same pursuits, for we are archers, both of us. As far as the bow is concerned, your occupation is the same, Apollo. But those other things are not exactly similar. That Artemis murdered strangers among the Scythians, and you act the prophet, and set up for a doctor. Why, do you imagine that my sister is happy with the Scythians? Seeing she is quite prepared, if any Greek should ever happen to touch the Tauric Peninsula, to sail away with him, loathing her sacrificial butchery. And she does well to do so. As for Praepus, however, for I will tell you something highly ridiculous. Being lately at Lemsakas, I was traveling by the city, and he received me hospitably, and gave me lodgings in his house. When we had retired to rest, after having sufficiently moistened ourselves at the dinner, somewhere above midnight my excellent host got up. But I blushed to tell you. Did he make any attempt on your virtue Dionysus? Something of the sort. And you? What did you do thereupon? Why, what else but laugh? Well done. That was acted in no unkind or uncivil manner. He was to be excused indeed, considering his attempt was directed against so good-looking a personage as yourself. For that same reason, my dear Apollo, he might direct his attention to you, too.  He will not do so, however, Dionysus. For with my flowing hair, I have my bows and arrows also. End of dialogue twenty-three. Dialogue twenty-four of the Dialogues of the Gods by Lucian, translated by Howard Williams. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information, or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Dialogue twenty-four. Hermes complains to his mother of the multiplicity of his employments. Hermes, read by Stefan. Maya, read by Leannia. Why, mother, is any God in heaven more thoroughly ruttured than I? Pray, don't talk in that way, my dear Hermes. Why should not I talk so, who have such a number of duties to attend to, toiling as I do, all alone, and distracted to so many services? For as soon as I am up at daybreak, I have to sweep out our banqueting hall, and after carefully arranging the couches, and putting each particular thing in order. I have to take my place at the side of Zeus, and carry about in all directions the messages I receive from him, running up and down the whole day like a courier. And as soon as I have returned up here again, while still covered with dust, I must hand him the ambrosia. Before, too, this lately purchased cup-bearer arrived. It was my business to pour in the nectar also. But what is most dreadful of all is that I alone of all the gods get no sleep even at night. But I must needs also be then conducting souls to Pluto, and acting as marshal of dead men, and dance attendants in his court of justice. For my employments by they are not enough to take my place in the palestra, and even to act as herald in the representative assemblies, and to train orators. But, parceled out as I am already, for all these services I must also take part in the affairs of the dead, and yet the sons of Leda take their places each in turn every other day in heaven and in Hades. But I must perforce, be about my duties here and there, the sons of Alkemena and Semeli, two born of wretched women, though they be, feast without care, whereas I, the son of Maya, the daughter of Atlas, wait upon them. And now, having but just come from Sidon, from the daughter of Cadmus, to whom he has sent me to see what the girl is about, and before even I have had time to get my breath, he packs me off again to Argus to look after Dany, then go from dense, says he, into Biosha, and have a look at Antiope, by the way. In truth I am quite done up and given, if I could, I vow I would gladly claim my right to be sold like those slaves on the earth who are vilely treated. Don't mind these things, child, for you must perforce, be submissive to your father and everything, since you are but a youth. And now, as you have been dispatched, march off to Argus, then to Biosha, that you may not get a beating for your dilatoranus, for people in love are apt to have short tempers. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Zeus, read by Owen Cook. What have you done, worst of Titans? You have ruined everything on the earth by trusting that chariot of yours to a foolish youth who was burned up for one half of the world by being carried to near the earth, and the other half has caused to be utterly destroyed by cold, by withdrawing heat too far from it, and in fine there is nothing whatever that has not been utterly thrown into disturbance and confusion. Indeed, if I had not perceived what had happened and hurled him down with my thunderbolt, there would have remained not even a remnant of the human species. Such an excellent driver and chariotier have you sent forth in that fine son of yours. I committed an arrow, Zeus, but don't be hard upon me, since I was prevailed upon by my son with his frequent entreaties, for from whence could I have at all expected that so tremendous a mischief could come about? Did you not know what extreme caution the matter needed, and that if one swerved ever so little from the road everything was ruined?  For if one slackens at all they immediately take the bit in their mouths, just as in fact they ran away with him, now to the left and after a space to the right, and sometimes in the opposite direction to their course and upwards and downwards in fine, where they themselves had a mind to go, while he did not know how to treat them. All this indeed I knew, and for that reason I for a long time resisted, and would not trust the driving to him, but when he begged me over and over again with tears in his mother's climony with him, after mounting him on the chariot I cautioned him, how he must stand firmly, and how far he should allow his horses to go into the higher regions and be born aloft, then how far he must direct them downwards again, and how he must have complete control of the reins, and not surrender them to the fireiness of his steeds, and I told him too how great was the peril if he did not keep the straight road.  Enough punishment, do you say? You who have rashly risked all this? However, I will grant your pardon now, for this time, but for the future, if you transgress at all in a similar fashion, or dispatch any similar substitute for yourself, you shall at once know of how much more fiery virtue is my thunderbolt than your fire. So now let his sisters bury him near the erudanus, whereabouts he fell, where he was pitched out, weeping amber over him, and let them become poplars out of their grief for him. But do you, for your part, put your chariot to pieces again? Both its pole is broken in two, and one of the wheels is completely smashed, and yoking your horses, drive on once more. Well, keep in mind all these injunctions. End of dialogue 25 Dialogue 26 of the Dialogues of the Gods by Lucienne, translated by Howard Williams. This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Dialogue 26 Apollo asks Hermes to point out to him of the Twin Diaschiorei, which is Caster, and which Palladukes, and takes the opportunity of criticising their divine pretensions. Apollo, read by Aaron White. Hermes, read by Owen Cook. Can you tell me, Hermes, which of these is Caster, or which is Palladukes? For I could not distinguish between them. That is Caster, who was with us yesterday, and this is Palladukes. How do you make your distinction, for they are as like as two peas? Thus, because this one Apollo has upon his face the traces of the wounds which he received from his antagonists when boxing, and especially the wounds which were inflicted on him by the Bibrysian Nameicus, when on the voyage with Jason, while the other shows nothing of the kind, but is untouched and unwounded in his face. Ah! you have conferred an obligation upon me by indicating the distinguishing marks, since in regard to other parts all are exactly alike. The half-segment of an egg and star above on their heads, a javelin in the hand, and each mounted on a white horse, so that I frequently addressed Palladukes as Caster, and the latter by the name of Palladukes. But tell me this, too. Why in the world do they not both live with us, but by halves, either of them at one moment is a dead man, and at another a divinity? They act so out of brotherly affection. For since one of the sons of Leda must have died, and the other have been a mortal alone, they of their own accord divided for themselves immortality between them in this way. And not altogether wise decision, Hermes, since by this arrangement they will not even see each other, what I suppose they especially desired, for how can they when one is with the gods, and the other with the dead? But, however, just as I deal in prophecy, and as escapious deals in medicine, and you, excellent trainer that you are, give instruction in the art of wrestling, and as Artemis acts the midwife, and each one of the rest of us exercises some profession useful either to the gods or to men, what then will these good people do for us? Will they such strapping use as they are enjoy the banquet without working? By no means, but they have assigned to them to act as deputies for Poseidon, and they must ride over the sea, and if they anywhere perceive sailors overtaken by a storm, perch themselves on the ship, and protect the voyagers.


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