Namaskaram, both of you, blue and red. Thank you. Namaskaram, and you guys are looking like a dangerous election campaign, red and blue. Blue and red, rather. You shouldn't be together this time, at least for another next twenty days. That's why we're out in the desert. Stay away from the masses. Please stop. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much. I want to start off by asking you a question. After reading, in engineering, a guy, a yogi's guide to joy, you mentioned that... Has it worked? Are you a little more joyful? For sure. For sure.  Like, the morning practice and just cultivating that morning practice in the morning has exponentially elevated my frequency. Therefore, everything that I have touched from that place has felt like it's been like the Midas touch. And it is cultivated over a period of time and devotion and... I don't know, Midas did only magic. This is mysticism, this is real. This is not stage managed. See, in the open desert also it works. Do you believe that magic is not real? When you use the word magic, usually it's on stage set up. But life is a different kind of magic. It's mystical. So this doesn't need a stage. The very cosmos is a stage that's happening in various ways. So in the book you mentioned that the word spirituality or spiritualism has been corrupted. I'm curious from your perspective, what is true spirituality? Well, let me give a very technical kind of answer to this because if you say anything more poetic, people will distort it again. So this is one reason why though it is natural for me to express myself in poetry in beautiful ways, which I did at one time, but when I saw that if I want to reach the world in a big way, I have to make it very technical, take off all the aesthetic, take off all the beauty, which I still do in closed programs and in closed events. But the larger world we presented this as inner engineering because you can't distort engineering. It either works or it doesn't work, making it that simple, okay? Poetry, art, beautiful. But will everybody get it? It's a big issue, okay? So having said that, a technical, absolutely technical definition of spiritual process would be this. There is a physiological process which you call as the body. There is a psychological process of thought and emotion going on. If you transcend these two, if somehow your experience of life transcends these two, that an experience which is not body-based, an experience which is not of the psychological structure, if this happens, then you are spiritual because something beyond body and mind has happened. Why is it important that something beyond body and mind should happen is because both your body and mind are accumulations that you gathered and you're mistaking it for a cosmos. What you created is not the creation, per se. So there is a creation, there is a force called creation which is not that creation happened at some time. It's happening in a tremendous way every moment of our life. But only few people are conscious of it. Rest are busy with their physiological and psychological processes. Their entire life is dedicated to manage their body and their mind. When I come to America, particularly California, I'm amazed after living here, you know, affluent lives, still the most fascinating thing for most people is food. It's... I'm sorry. Still food is the most interesting and fascinating thing and even among whatever we speak and do, we made a book called Taste Afeesha. That's the highest-selling damn book. This is the human tragedy, okay? I can understand a man who is living in the desert who's hungry, who's not eating anything other than lizard meat. That man is fascinated about food. But people who lived in affluent societies were exposed to everything they've tasted. Too many things, they shouldn't have tasted that many. Every possible animal they killed, every possible plant they cut and ate, but still they're overly fascinated about food. And next is their emotions. People think talking about love is something superior in spiritual, nothing, it's just human emotion. I'm saying, why are you struggling with something so simple that your dog is capable of? If your dog is capable of it, you're capable of it for sure, isn't it? Right now, human beings are getting inspired by the dogs. No, dog should be inspired by you because you're more evolved, I believe. Hello? So spiritual process means something beyond body and mind became a living thing in your life. It became a living experience. I'm sorry if I'm too abrasive. I'm curious actually, your perception on water fasting or fasting and taking prolonged periods of time… See, she went to food directly. Okay, fasting, not food, good. It's the opposite of food. It's time away from food and the benefits, if you believe there are any benefits from allowing ourselves to take a reset and to renegotiate our relationship with food. See, this happened in Los Angeles. A cardiac surgeon drove his… he was little fascinated with this Ford Mustang, that was his car and he was a little excited about it and one day it started coughing a little bit. So he took it to the local mechanic inside some problem, please fix it. He said, yeah, dog, come tomorrow morning, he'll be ready. The doctor, before going to work tomorrow morning, he went there but it was not ready. So he said, okay, come in the evening, he'll be ready. He came in the evening, it was not ready. He said, what's the matter? You said, morning I came. You said, evening I came, what is the issue? And the mechanic was in that kind of mood, he's sad.  You also fix engines. I also fix engines. How come you have paid ten times more than me? So the doctor looked at him and said, try to fix the engine when it's running, let me see. So human life and human body needs to be fixed when it's running. Otherwise it's meaningless. All right, you're going to post-mortem. What's the point of that? We need to fix this body when it's running. If you want to fix this body when it's running, you must understand because we're talking about something related to digestive process. These are the stages of this ingestion, putting something inside. Digestion, assimilation, excretion, these are four dimensions of food and the whole process. Injestion, digestion, assimilation, excretion. Injition is happening in today's world just about any time, wherever they are sitting, standing, any time of the day or night, people just eat because there's so much food. It was not like this ever in the history of humanity. But unfortunately, fortunately there is a lot of food. Unfortunately, people don't know when to eat, when not to eat. As there are cycles in time, see we know time only by cycles. If the planet spins one like this, one spin, we say it's a day. Otherwise you wouldn't know. If the moon goes around, we say one month. If we go around the sun, then we say one year. So our idea of time is essentially cycles. Our birth and death is also question of cycles. Only because our mother's bodies were in sync with the cycles of the moon, we're even born, otherwise we wouldn't be born. So our whole physical existence is cyclical. The entire spiritual process, we could go into that if you wish, essentially is significant because it's not cyclical. Because cyclical means you're going in circles. If I say you're going in circles, what does it imply? In a loop. You're not getting anywhere. Usually if I leave you in desert where here there are some mountains, if there are no features, it's just sand, then people end up going in circles. That means you're not getting anywhere, that means you're lost. So the moment you are completely identified with your body and your psychological structure, you will start going in cycles. So in India, in the yogic culture it's very, very clear, this is called a samsara, that means cyclical life. So cyclical life as good a merry-go-round it may be. You know, if you arrange it well, it's a good merry-go-round, but you're not getting anywhere. Children can enjoy a merry-go-round. If all the adults are sitting in the merry-go-round and going around and around thinking they're travelling, oh very tragic, isn't it? So that's what happens. So the body is a cycle. These cycles are very connected with the planetary cycles, with the moon cycle, with the sun cycle, everything. Lunar cycle, solar cycles and the earth cycles are very important for the body. If one has the necessary awareness, they could observe on which day your body doesn't need food.  If you observe your system, you will see on a particular day you don't feel like eating.  You see all the animals, even if you have a dog at home, on a certain day he refuses to eat both dogs and cats. Have you noticed this? He will go and eat some blades of grass if it's available and puke and clenches himself because he's conscious that ingestion is continuously happening, but digestion and excretion is not as efficient as ingestion. Ingestion is happening compulsively, but other parts need to work. Other dimensions of digestive process needs to work. When we say digestion, digestion happens in the whole alimentary canal, not just in the stomach. And assimilation also happens across the entire alimentary canal. Now excretion doesn't happen only through the alimentary canal, excretion needs to happen on the cellular level also. Impurities gather over a period of time and you become dense both in body and head. If you don't cleanse yourself, then it'll pile up over a period of time. We call this karma because when it piles up, it determines the way you think, feel, understand and experience life. People may not realize this, but they will think, this is how I am, this is my nature, this is not your nature, this is the way you messed yourself, all right? So this cleansing process, one important thing is to give a break for ingestion. Because other systems are largely involuntary, you can stimulate them, but they're involuntary, they're functioning. Injection is a voluntary process. Though unfortunately for most people it's become compulsive, it should be a voluntary process, that is I eat when I want to eat. When I decide I want to eat, I will eat. My hand doesn't decide when to eat. If there's anything, there's anything, you know, people are doing this all the time. I relate.  So ingestion should be a conscious process. To bring this consciousness, there are many methods, one is fasting. Simply denying yourself food and water could cause damage to the system. You must support it with the necessary practices. If you have the necessary practices, the need for food will come down. See, our energies are not coming only from the food that we eat. The sunlight, the air, the water, actually if you… in the yogic sciences we say, if you really keep your system well, sixty to seventy percent of your energy should come from these three factors, sunlight, air, water. Another forty percent should come from the food that you eat. So naturally food, amount, volume of food that you eat will compress. I must tell you about myself. When I was young, I'm a big eater. I never became big because my activity was immense.  From the age of nineteen till now, I'm still the same weight. Same weight, what I was at nineteen. Only thing is at that time all the weight was on my shoulders. Now because of this gravity continuously working on me, kind of pulled it down a little bit but I kept myself up. So fasting as a process must be done with necessary understanding. If people don't have that awareness, in India we fixed the eleventh day of the moon cycle, you must fast. If you're not able to fast, you go on something very light, it's called palhaar.  Because fruit is a substance which is over ninety percent water and you must eat water, not drink water. This is the yogic science. As far as possible, you eat water. You always be conscious about the food that you're eating, what is the water content. Like a South Indian meal if you eat, a cooked meal I'm talking about, if you eat, very easily sixty, seventy percent water. In fact more. In some of the foods it's much more. But now the food that you're eating here, you're eating bread which was baked a month ago probably, is that minimum? Even I know. So-called organic shops, it's at least a month or at least a week. Nobody's going and getting fresh bread and come and anyway, the way the bread is baked, it doesn't have water in it, very, very little water.  All right? I said a bucket, not like that. A bucket, is I thinking about a Coca-Cola? What is this big? So, but that doesn't work like that. You, if you drink any liquid along with your food, the acids that are necessary for digestive process will get diluted. Your whole digestive process gets inefficient because food when it goes in, if it contains water, it's assist. But if you put any liquid on top of it, you will see the food will remain in the stomach bag for too long. We are very concerned about this always in the yogic culture and life that we don't want food to remain in our stomach bag for more than two-and-a-half hours maximum. In two-and-a-half hours time, it doesn't matter what I've eaten, how much I've eaten, it must go into other parts. If it remains there, it makes you dull. It makes you lose your sense of perception. Your... the level of perception, the keenness of perception is lost.  It kind of pulls you down. Whole lot of people have developed a culture around it, after lunch they have to sleep. It's like you went to the gas station, you fueled up, then you can't start the engine because there is a gas in the tank. So that's what it means. So to ensure that digestive system is in full process because for most of the chronic ailments that people are suffering today in the world, the headquarters is in the stomach. Yes. But a lot of people are shifting to their head, but largely headquarters is in the stomach, the way... what they eat and the way they eat. So in this way they eat, one simple thing to bring discipline is, maybe one or two days in a month, you go on much lighter foods, which are very simple and easy on the body. If you can just thrive on water or just a little bit of lemon and water or little late, lightly honey-laced water, it will help. But if it's not possible for you, maybe a fruit or something, which is very, very light on the system, the idea is to give digestive process and assimilation process a break so that rest of the body begins to excrete. On the cellular level it must throw out all the impurities.  Look at how they become long faces. Everybody has become like this. At least eighty percent of the humanity, I don't even know if... if they get to laugh once a day. Now, whole lot of people are doing laughing yoga, every day laughing in the morning. This is madness. You think you must laugh. No, see, if a flower is fragrant, it happens because it blossomed, not because you sprayed some perfume on it from outside. Laughter, smile is not a philosophy or an ideology. If you're joyful, you will naturally smile. No, no, you must smile every day.  I... when you speak about people not, you know, they're so focused on the taste of food, right? They haven't been able to taste something beyond their own mind, body, thoughts and emotion. And I look at what you're doing in the world and what Isha is doing in the world and so many people. It's because it seems like they've tasted something beyond, right? And so in the spiritual process and in the pursuit of self-realization, I'd be curious for you to explain on what is the nature of what we are trying to self-realize. And to jump on that, in the same theme, I remember driving home from doing my inner engineering course in the car. And I was driving and while I was holding the steering wheel, I was screaming out loud, I love my life! And I was so happy filled with so much joy that everything that was being taught in that course introduced me into a reality that was so far beyond anything that I had placed joy in anything external and it was very new for me. You must clarify that in your car you don't have a store of any bottles or pills or anything. You must clarify to the people because they won't believe, they won't believe that you could be just bursting with life without any chemical support from outside. We have come to such unfortunate levels that if you want to experience anything, to be healthful, chemicals, chemicals, chemicals, or a trillion dollars worth of pharmaceuticals I think are being sold every year, to grow food, chemical, chemical, chemical, to be peaceful, chemical, to sleep, chemical, to sleep, to be joyful, chemical, to know anything experiential. I know people are weaving philosophies how chemicals are the best thing you can do. Well, they want to sell something, I understand. But if a day comes, hope it doesn't, we are working to see that it doesn't. If a day comes where ninety percent of the humanity is consuming chemicals either in the form of food or prescribed medication or backstreet stuff, whatever, it doesn't matter. If ninety percent of the humanity goes on chemical consumption, we are heading there very rapidly right now. If that happens, the next generation that we produce will be less than us. That's a crime against humanity. The next generation should be at least one step ahead of us. If they are behind us, that means we have committed a serious crime against humanity. That will inevitably happen if we go with these chemicals.  But unfortunately you think the madness in your mind is a phenomena. It's not a phenomena. It's a silly recycle of the same old things, all right? Now people taking drugs, the word that they use is they were experimenting.  People who are involved in sexuality, they're experimenting. I said, hey, even the caveman knew what to do, all right? Except Mr. Adam, everybody else knew what to do, what are you experimenting now?  It's all been experimented, isn't it? Now experimentation means you try to enter new terrain that nobody has gone into, right? Hello?  Well, fifty million people who are living here, what is there to find? Okay, for Europeans you found a new continent. That's a different matter. But you cannot discover something which is already known to lots of people. You cannot explore, say you say, I am, I explored this desert. But you go there, whole lot of people are living there. What is there for you to explore? They've all been there, all right? We are ignoring the other creatures. All right, I'll give you that much margin. But if there are human beings, obviously you are not the explorer. But explorers went to Africa and explored Africa. And they found people who they did not treat as people anyway. Why I'm saying this is, this is not to inside something. All I'm saying is, stop this rubbish. People have been living in different places. Because as our transportation systems of ships and other things improved, we made connections, all right? If you say Columbus connected Europe to America, wonderful. He discovered, how can he discover? So like this, people are experimenting things which have been happening for thousands of years. Doesn't mean a thing. If you really want to experiment, you must step into a new terrain.  I include the cave woman, but that's a term, you know? Yeah. Maybe women were even civilized even then, I don't know. That's why only cave man was there. I'm giving the margin. So what is there to experiment about things that people have known forever? If you want to experiment, you have to go into a new terrain. Now you're going into space. This is exploration, all right? This is real exploration. Because nobody has been there from this part of the system, solar system at least. Maybe somewhere else there may be somebody. But right now in our experience, it's a true exploration because we have not met anybody there. Similarly, if you go into dimension which is beyond physicality and psychological space that you have, then you will see you will meet nobody. But that's a real exploration. And then you will become like you cannot be not alert for a moment because everything is new. Everything is absolutely new. And everything is absolutely new terrain every moment of your life.    People think somebody has renounced something. People keep on asking me, «Sadhguru, why did you renounce your business and this and that?    What, you teddy bears are still there or Barbies have taken over? I don't know. Let's say a teddy bear you're playing with it. On that day if I take it away from you, oh, you would be deeply wounded. But do you know where your teddy bear actually went? Your favorite toy or doll that you could not live without at one time?  So if you grow up, your food, your excitement about eating this and that, I'm not saying you should not enjoy food, I do. I'm a good cook, all right? I'll come out as a good cook one day because I will present myself one day as a really good chef. We'll do that when we have the time. But this fascination about little, little things, it's not that you should not enjoy it, it is not that you should be not involved in it, but I think there is a kind of a fetish which is unhealthy, that must go. That will not go unless you find something more significant, that's what it's about. Yeah. And how do we find something more significant? See, a worm that crawls on the earth, it has its own purpose, it has its own life. But it gets eaten by a bird which has wings and feathers. It eats the worm and flies. Is it a little better machine? Let's look at this as machines. Worm is one kind of mechanism, bird is another kind of mechanism. The bird consumes the worm and then flies. Is it a mechanism with higher possibility? Hmm? Yeah. Yes. So similarly, if you want to get to a higher space, you need a little better mechanism.  For a human being, there is no lines, there's no top line for sure. If you do not go there, you are putting lines based on your own ideas, philosophies, belief systems, you're putting lines. If you don't believe in anything, if you don't subscribe to anything, if you simply look at life, there is no lines anywhere. Where you set the line, there it is. If you don't set any line, it's a limitless process. So, because you have come with this level of evolution and there are no lines fixed in your life, because of that, you need to first thing is perk up the machine.  Just survive for five days somehow and then sixth day the bird will eat you and the purpose of life for you is served in a way. Because you come without limits, now you really need to prime this machine because now if it wants to fly, now it wants to go to other dimensions, this must be kept in a very top condition. This is why inner engineering, to engineer yourself in such a way that nothing within you is an impediment. There are a thousand impediments in the world, but you are not an impediment.   But for most people, they themselves are a big issue, isn't it? They don't need anybody's help to create a problem. So Guru, I'm curious what your perception of the masculine and the feminine energies on the planet, from my perspective, it seems like the masculine and the feminine is out of balance, not only through the collective but also with us as individuals. And I'm curious about your perspective of this. Yes, unfortunately the so-called modern civilizations have tried their best to obliterate the feminine. They cannot obliterate, so it's shrunk. When I say obliterate the feminine, if we have to put this into a very simplistic understanding, it's a complex process because it manifests in a million different ways. If we have to make it very simplistic, everybody wants to expand and enhance their lives. If you have to enhance your life, if you look at life from a physical perspective, you must have that. It may be an object, it may be a mountain, it may be a human being, I want that. This is enhancement. Something that's not mine, I want to make it mine. There are two ways to do this, either by conquest or by inclusion. So inclusion comes from the dimension of feminine. Conquest is very masculine. We can use this context to look at everything. There are many, many other more beautiful ways to look at it. Day after tomorrow, the Navaratri starts in India, nine nights. This is completely dedicated to the feminine. It's a big festival across the country, so much cultural events and things, even in our yoga center, nine days of celebrations. This time people are not allowed, it's all online. But celebrations, music, dance, everything is happening.  Man will go out and make designs on the floor, they will sing, they will dance, they will make music, because the idea is this time is coming after the, this autumn equinox. This is the time of the feminine. So it is celebrated in a big way, nine days, there are nine different types of goddesses. Fierce ones, terrible ones, beautiful ones, compassionate ones, very strong ones, all kinds. So if you look at many goddesses in India, this is something we must… which is completely missing anywhere else in the world is, many of our goddesses are like Rakhini, Dakini, Lankini, Chandi, Chamundi, Chinnamasta, Kali, like this, if you look at them, they have fears, blood dripping out of their mouth, sand, you know? Humans, skulls hanging around their neck and all that kind of imagery. Why this is done is because a whole lot of times, right through history of humanity, when a woman gets little strong, she is always experienced like this. She is troubled, she must be beaten, she must be burnt at the stake. All this happened because she exhibited certain strength and it comes out in a certain way. So normally the term that is used in English, she is… she literally bites your head off.  But they are worshiped because the understanding is this, that what human competence is, what human intelligence is, what human genius is, need not be surrendered at the altar of good behavior. Good behavior you can train your puppy for good behavior. The important thing about the human being in this limited amount of time and energy that we have, the highest possible genius should find expression. How it finds expression we don't know, but that is more important than good behavior. This is why these goddesses are worshiped, they are not good behavior for sure. But they have a certain power, they have a certain genius, they have a certain capability. So you never surrender those things which will transform life for good behavior, which is just a pretension. There is not a license for you to behave whichever way you want.  So acknowledging the suppression of the feminine and how the Indian culture, which I absolutely love, thank you for sharing that, has a time where it's honoring the feminine through the creativity and the intuition and the playfulness. I'm curious, in our everyday lives, the feminine runs within men and within women, this isn't just like to women, how can we support and activate the feminine within us as individuals to support the rebalance of the planet? See, feminine should not be mistaken as female. Female is a gender issue, male-female is a gender issue. Feminine masculine is the nature of the universe, the nature of creation is between two polarities of masculine and feminine. So do not identify feminine with just woman. Do not identify feminine or masculine with just human beings. It is everywhere. It is for you to recognize between these two polarities creation happens. Physicality cannot happen without polarities. Anything physical needs a polarity, light and darkness, silence and sound. Even if you take electricity which we're using right now, positive negative, otherwise there's no function, all right? So it needs to be looked at in a broader way if you just thinking of this as, okay, woman can do this, woman can do this, it's not about woman. Feminine is not about man or woman. It is about the nature of life. If you have them in equal proportions, people will live a more balanced and fruitful life.  Right now it's becoming like that because largely the structures of the society and the financial mechanisms and whatever else in the society which rules today's world is all created to fit a male into it which is largely masculine. Now women want to be successful. So they're acting more masculine than men themselves. They are also like this. This is not the nature of the woman to do this at somebody, all right? But it's become like this. Now she wants to do all those very terribly masculine things. Well, the true loss to womanhood happens when we lose femininity, when we lose the value of feminine in the society. Unfortunately some societies are moving in that direction. It's important to bring back that both these things are very, very valuable without it which cannot be born, we cannot be nourished, we cannot be anything here. Yeah, just switching gears just because of the limited time that we have, I after reading Mystic Smusings and hearing about your encounters with disembodied beings and you know things that sound like they're in a fairy tale, I'm very interested and curious if one you know your thoughts on extraterrestrial life and if you've been in contact with any. Oh, maybe you are one, who knows. Maybe that is a better question. Am I looking extraterrestrial? I'm a little extra on the terror, right? Well, I have a repetition of being very logically correct which is important in this world today, though it's quite silly and limiting. So I don't want to destroy that repetition on your show for myself, but if you want to explore such things, we have now just now recently created what's called an exclusive, Sadhguru, exclusive. This is to explore those dimensions which don't fit into your logic because right now most human beings are being constipated by their own logic. Logic is a wonderful thing to survive, to understand the physical nature because for logic you need two, as we just said, it needs masculine feminine, it's light darkness. Two polarities are needed for logic, otherwise there's no logic. But there are dimensions which don't belong to these polarities. Those dimensions cannot be explored in a logical way. If you're really keen on these things, then you must come, we'll put you through the works. But if I logically answer this question, that will be very cosmetic. It doesn't really get to the heart of the matter.   All I did was, I gathered this material from the earth, took a loan from Mother Earth, I paid back my loan, so everybody sees I'm a ghost, what to do? You pay back your bank loan, people say this is a problem in United States. People are telling me, Sadguru, you have no credit, what is that? Credit score. I don't have any credit worthiness. I said, why? Said, you've never taken a loan. I said, isn't it a good thing I never taken a loan? I said, no, no, you're no good in America because you have no credit worthiness. So this is just like that.  Now, I'm a ghost in the financial circuits of America because I have no credit footprint anymore. I think why we get along very well is because we have a similar desire of on the spiritual path of self-realization. And if we are ghosts with a body, we want to come to know that experientially for ourselves. And so, yeah, I humbly ask, how, how can we come to know that? Is it a matter of raising our energies to a certain level to then experience that, or what would that be? Yes, above all, see, as I said, what spirituality, the first question she asked, what spirituality means is your experience of life is beyond your physiological and psychological processes. That means your experience, your ghostliness, we can call it your spirit. We can call it your spirit, all right?  Essentially, your experience in something beyond your physical nature, that's the important thing. And anyway, this is some unsolicited advice I'm giving you. It's up to you what you do with that. You wearing rings on your thumbs is a very wrong thing to do. Metal on your thumb will bring that kind of energies to you that you cannot handle. You should not put metal on your thumbs. And so, when you say it brings energy to you, that means maximum you can only wear eight rings. Otherwise, you can go the Indian way and add another eight to the toes. There also, you must leave the big one. Hmm. This is everything that Andhra has actually told me. He's like, I learned from Sadguru and it not to wear thumb rings and I'm like, ah, it's fine, but it's hit slightly different when the man himself shows it with me. Um, all right. Well, with that being said, I'm just going to take these off real quick. And yeah, I'm making her less expensive for you. Thank you, Sadguru. During's less zero to buy. You had a very interesting question for people that are on the spiritual path that people just, you know, with their families is very difficult. So something I have witnessed within my own personal experience and simultaneously within my audience specifically through Deja Blue is a child choosing their spiritual path, which is not necessarily in alignment with the family ancestry or the morals of the family.  So I would still be a child of my parents. However, I'm 30 years old. Oh, you didn't have to confess like that. I was thinking you're 16. How about? You're 30. So almost 30. I don't usually handle confessions. So it's all right. You fit the part, truly. So I'm just curious if you had advice or some guidance around... See, as I said earlier, spiritual process is an exploration of new terrain. Now I'm your grandfather and I tell you, you must only explore what I have explored. The man is a nonsense, all right? Hello? Yeah. You must explore what I have explored. This is like everybody experimenting with sexuality when the caveman also knew what to do. All right? Even Mr. Adam needed just a bite on the apple that is simple. But you must experiment. What is there to experiment or explore? No, everybody knows what it is. So exploration cannot be the way your grandfather did it. That's not exploration, that's a farce, all right? You just have to believe that's the only way. This has happened because very dogmatic approach to relief, I mean to religions. So it's extremely important that and it'll anyway happen. In the next 50 years time, it is important that the world moves from religion to responsibility for all the problems that we are creating on the planet. The only solution, including for the pandemic, is responsible action, isn't it? Right now, responsibility is there. No responsibility needs to come here. If this happens, all these problems are gone. And anyway, from whatever one or two thousand years old, people have been always modifying it the way they like it. Most religions say no divorce. Well, people are divorcing right, left, centre, all right. Many, many other things, whatever was said thou shall not is a full-time transaction right now on various levels. So, I'm not trying to criticize somebody or make fun of something, but I'm saying it's natural evolution of human civilization that we will move from religion to responsibility. That means we understand the only piece of creation that we can experience right now is this. And the only doorway to the creator is this. There is no other doorway anywhere. Even if it's there, you cannot experience it. I'm saying maybe there is a doorway in this little desert flower, but you cannot experience it, right? You can only experience what happens within you. So, don't try to condition and control what happens within me. What I do in the society needs some control because others are involved. What happens within me, don't ever try to control and condition this because it's nobody's concern what happens within me. When I say what happens within me, I'm not just talking about physiological and psychological stuff. I'm saying what happens within me means beyond what I have accumulated in the form of body and mind, what happens within me must be totally my... It's the only doorway I have. If I have to open anything, it has to open up in my experience. Is there some other way? There is simply no other way. So, what happens within me must be left untouched. That is the worst kind of contamination that can happen in a civilization is people are concerned about what is happening within you. They should not be. How I behave in the world, yes, there should be because it concerns everybody else. What happens within me is nobody's business. What happens in my body, maybe somebody's business, because if you do drugs, do this, that and you fall sick, we will have to take care of you. It's happening, right? Taxpayers' money is going to take care of all kinds of people, drunkards, this, that, we have to take care of them. In that sense, we are concerned about what happens within your body. What happens in your mind, if you go crazy, tomorrow we'll have to take care of you, we can't just leave you on the street. So, that is a concern. But what happens within me beyond that is nobody's concern, because that's my space, nobody has any business to enter there. Thank you very much. Thank you. So, for everybody that's listening at home, wherever they are, my question to create a takeaway from this interview, it's many... No, no, no, no, no. This is not a takeaway shop. You just digest it, assimilate it. Don't take away anything. Become. Because taking away is the worst thing. Because that is not the nature of life. I'm just reminding you, because you're gathering all this... I don't know how many rings. All right. Now I've reduced it by two at least. At the end of our lives, when we die, there is no takeaway. Let everybody understand this. There is no container service that you can gather everything and go. So this is the nature of life, that there is no takeaway. So let there be no takeaway from this also. Namaskar. Thank you. So to all of you beautiful bluebirds out there, thank you so much for tuning in and coming into this experience in the Mojave Desert with myself, Andre and Sudguru.  So grateful that you are here today on Deja Blue Podcast and so grateful for you tuning in at home wherever you are. May you feel seen and loved and supported and blessed in this one.


Quality of service has been adopted by ITUT as a framework for next generation networks. The classical understanding of QS provisioning is at different levels. We call them the delivery mechanisms, we look at those, then we will see how ITUT defines the framework, specifically it is a criteria that we shall totally see. So the QS delivery mechanisms in IP based networks are actually provided at different layers. For instance, if you look at the layer 2, the data link layer, these mechanisms actually allow the management of admission control and signaling at different access technologies in terms of the resources which are available at layer 2. For instance, the send and receive buffers which are available at the second layer. These layer 2 mechanisms are actually limited to the LAN segment or the network segment. So we can think about layer 2 technologies which change end-to-end. For instance, we have mobile network, we can have a wireless network and we can have an Ethernet all connected in tandem in cascade and an end-to-end IP connection is established as a service flow. In that case, we would be expecting that three different kinds of layer 2 QSs shall have to be provided. Now, in order to have consistent experience at the above layers, layer 2 QS for all these different technologies have to be managed in such a way that a user gets a seamless experience. Then at the network layer, we have end-to-end QS provisioning. It is known as the IP layer QS provisioning. Well-known architectures from the IETF are the differentiated services architecture, the integrated services architecture and the legacy multi-protocol label switching. Now, these network layer QS provisioning mechanisms have their own pros and cons. It is beyond the scope but these architectures are worthwhile to be studied and considered. So when ITUT adopted a QS framework, it did it as a standardization activity because there are other organizations at the regional level, even at the global level, which are providing QS to their networks but for NGN, some kind of universally accepted QS framework had to be designed. Now, ITUT is providing the lead but it is also mindful of the protocol evolution which is taking place in the ITF. So whenever some protocol modification or release takes place by the ITF community, so it is incorporated as a mandatory requirement by ITUT. So the QS criteria and parameters are defined by ITUT in a document which is known as the recommendations document g.1000. It is a general QS framework not very specific so it has certain criteria. There are seven criteria which are to begin with very general but provide a good holistic view of in fact complete view of what QS has to look like. For instance, it defines speed of different service functions, the response which is expected out of each functional element, then the accuracy in terms of if it is an audio call, the speech quality, success, a probability of a call, the billing which takes place for that call duration. In terms of availability, for instance, the coverage of a certain service provider in terms of geographical area and in terms of service providers, then service availability as such is also a QS concern because a service may be available very effectively in one service provider's jurisdiction but it is not available in another so the QS criteria says it is not a very good service. Then we have reliability. Reliability is basically the trustworthiness of the network in terms of how many calls it drops, how many calls it makes and the overall stringent billing requirements. I mean if the customers are complaining of over billing then it means it's not a very reliable service provider. Then in terms of security, obviously the privacy is a concern, fraud prevention of any kind has to be ensured. Then simplicity is basically the ease of doing business that is if a network has to undergo a software upgrade then it should not cause service disruption and network unavailability. Then if a certain service provider is asked to terminate a service then it should not cause unnecessary delay and procrastinate. It should actually be a simple procedure through which the network can be engaged and network can be disengaged for a certain service. Then we have the flexibility. Flexibility actually implies the ability of the network to change so that the user does not feel it has not been provided the grade or the quality of service as requested. So whenever there's a change in contract, if there's a clause that is introduced at one point in time, for instance if a user wants the prepaid service to be converted to a postpaid service then the network provider has to incorporate this into the user billing automatically and obviously the user should be provided the flexibility to pay through any means, for instance online versus offline. Not only the criteria are being defined but the service functions are also defined. The service functions should actually provide some kind of variation. If there is no variation then we can't ensure that quality of service is provided by a certain network. So in terms of service management for instance these services or the products or the applications which are offered have to have certain variety. We call it sales. Then the pre-contract user experience should be provided to make sure that a user has been exposed to the kind of service it is going to get. Then the provisioning of service has to be provided in a variety of ways. Some kind of modification or alteration has to be incorporated. Then throughout the provisioning of service and the contractual period for which a user is getting a service, continuous technical and customer support has to be ensured. If there is a disruption of service or some kind of inconvenience it has to be dealt with through proper repair regime. And lastly when the user wants the service to be terminated it should be given different opt-out models. Then there is also a flexibility expectation so that quality of service can be provided in terms of the information transfer. Information transfer means what all information and what levels of information can be provided in terms of connection. For instance connection establishment connection termination should be logged somewhere. Now this level of logging has to be different so that different kinds of information can be retrieved and business logic can be developed depending upon what connection information is available. Then billing and the overall configuration control of the user should also be flexible so that if a user experiences certain billing format and user is interested in getting billing in another format it should be provided. And if a user has a certain graphical user interface priority then it should be allowed to tailor or alter the graphical user interface correspondingly.


And today we're very pleased, actually, a new face to Sheboygan County, Mr. Jim Holbert. Jim is the most recent addition to our management team. He's the new planning director, been with us now for about five or six weeks, and Jim is just very good to have you aboard. Welcome. Well, thank you, Adam. Jim, why don't you begin by sharing a little bit about yourself, obviously being new to the area and new to the planning director position for Sheboygan County. Let our viewers know a little bit about who Jim Holbert is. Sure. Well, I've had two similar positions in two other counties in Wisconsin, Pierce County and Dunn County, and my duties there were essentially the same as what I'm doing here. And I did that for approximately 10 years and really enjoyed that. Other experiences I've had, oh gosh, let's see, I was environmental affairs and sustainability coordinator for the Aveda Corporation. I was a pollution control specialist for the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. I've owned and operated my own environmental consulting firm for a number of years and had governmental and industrial clients. And believe it or not, my last job was actually on the island of Guam. I managed a very small environmental consulting firm, and we did work on Guam, Saipan, and Yap. And educationally, I have a bachelor's degree in biology, a minor in sociology, and I've done graduate work under a stipend and fellowship from the U.S. Public Health Service in environmental health with major concentrations in water quality and public health biology. I know that when we went through the interview process, your experience and background obviously just really was impressive. And we just got together prior to this meeting to touch base a little bit, and I was alluding to the fact that though it's only been five or six weeks, it feels so much longer because you've just transitioned so well into the planning department and really have done a nice job. What's your impression of Sheboygan County? Well, first of all, thank you for saying that. And I think the transition has been easy because of you and because of Bill and the wonderful staff of the county and indeed all the citizens in Sheboygan County. My initial impressions of the county, of course, is a very beautiful place. My gosh, we've got the wonderful Lake Michigan, the Sheboygan Marsh, the Kettlemarine State Forest. It's a beautiful mix of urban and rural areas, a good mix of rural land uses and urban land uses. And I think the best thing about Sheboygan County so far are the people. I really enjoyed meeting the people and working with them, and I guess I had a really good time so far these almost two months. Well, good to hear. Good to hear. Now, as viewers who follow this show periodically, they know that we try to touch on each of our 23 departments to give them a flavor of role and responsibilities. And as I mentioned, you hit the ground running and certainly have experience as a director in two other counties. Could you give us a flavor for what are some of the predominant role and responsibilities of the planning department? What are you all involved with? Well, it seems like in this county and most others, the planning department kind of gets things that nobody else wants where they kind of fall between the cracks. We really do a lot of different things. I think the first thing I could think of would be floodplain management. Under both state and federal laws, counties like Sheboygan County have to enforce floodplain regulations. And we do that through zoning. And so people who do things in floodplains have to come into the county and get a land use permit. Under state regulations, Sheboygan County also has to enforce shoreland regulations. And so people doing land use activities by rivers and streams and lakes and so on, they require a permit from us as well. The county also regulates septic systems, individual wastewater treatment systems for sanitary waste from houses and businesses, but industrial waste and hazardous waste, that's really regulated by the DNR.  We also operate something fairly new and that's a requirement from the state of Wisconsin that we work with people who own septic systems to make sure that their tanks are inspected and pumped out on a three-year basis. And so we really would appreciate the understanding of rural landowners and that we have to make sure that the septic systems are working properly in order to protect public health and the environment. Other things that we're involved in would be smart growth planning, again under legislative direction. All local units of government in Wisconsin are supposed to do land use planning if they do anything regarding land regulation at all. And so we've worked with a number of communities, in fact, I think most of the communities and towns in Sheboygan County and we're helping them along with the University of Wisconsin Extension and some regional planning agencies to do comprehensive land use plans. Other things that we do, my gosh, one of the things that I'm really interested in would be the Sheboygan Marsh for example, the county is coordinating and actually leading the efforts to make sure that the marsh is properly operated and we also maintain and operate boat landings and recreational trails. And I'm also involved in building the new marsh tower as you can see up there on the foam board and I'm proud to be working with the citizens on that. I know we're going to talk a little bit about the marsh tower in a moment but one of the areas that comes to mind that I know is probably more of an on-sung area but they do very, very important work and that's real property listing. Yes, that's correct. The real property listing is also in the planning department and they work both local governments and assessors and make sure that land use maps and parcel ownership maps are done properly and recorded properly. And we do a lot of other things as well so the planning office is very busy. You mentioned, as you said, a number of areas. How many employees do you have? We right now have about 17 employees and I've got to say that I'm really impressed. The quality of people in the planning department is excellent. They're all professionals. They all know what they have to do. They work with the public really well and again I'm just really encouraged by the fact that I'm working with some really good people so I think the citizens of Sheboygan County should be proud of the employees in the planning department. I certainly am. And they've got a tough job to do. As you said, sometimes some of the tasks you have to do are not the most popular whether it's monitoring or regulating septic systems or sending out those cards every three years to let people know that they have to have their septic system checked or some of the other regulations with shoreland and I know that occasionally the planning department has to put that black hat on and has to enforce that and that's not easy. No it's not and you know sometimes we don't really like having the black hat on but nevertheless there are regulations there are state and federal requirements and if we don't do some of these these enforcement actions I guess I'll use that term. There's consequences for the county and so we have to avoid that. Other things that the department does we've created and we implement the fire line preservation plan the natural resources and critical areas plan and also the recreation plan and right now our outdoor recreation and open space plan is almost near completion and so the first draft will be going out to local units of government and some organizations and we hope to have a public hearing on that all in the next month or two I guess. Now I know you have your fingers in all of this and as you said some great staff to work with but in your short tenure here what are a couple of projects that you personally have taken a real leadership role in? Yeah well you're right I do get involved just about everything besides the administrative and budgetary and supervisory things but I've really gotten involved in a few projects that I've I've really found interesting and we've alluded to the Marsh Tower project before and again I'm proud to work with a very fine group of citizens who have had the vision to actually increase the exposure and the education educational potential of the marsh and their vision is to build this tower and it's a tower constructed out of wood and it'll be the largest the tallest wooden observation tower in the entire state of Wisconsin and we've recently sent out our request for proposals we already have interest from several contractors that'll hopefully work with us to build the tower and we'll be opening up the bids sometimes in June and hopefully start construction by late summer and we've got almost 250 different organizations families and businesses and individuals that have contributed gosh I think at last count about 175 thousand dollars towards this project we're still just a little short but we're almost there and so if people still wish to make donations we'd appreciate that people can donate any amount of money they feel comfortable with and for certain amounts of donations we can inscribe their name or you know a saying or some words on a brick on the walkway leading up to the tower they could buy a step or maybe a business or a corporation would like to buy a level or a floor and I think there's one or two of those left so we've had quite a bit of success in our fundraising I know as well you've taken a real leadership role and jumped in with both feet with our non-motorized transportation program and and that effort could you touch on that a little bit sure as the viewers might know Sheboygan County has been really lucky we're one of four municipalities or locations in the country that have gotten this this grant and we've got about 25 million dollars and what this grant would enable us to do would be to take a look at increasing alternative transportation in other words modes of transportation that don't rely on fossil fuels getting away from the automobile for example and increasing the numbers of people who either bike or walk to work or to school we've got excellent staff in that program we have a very wonderful Citizens Advisory and Technical Committee there's I think 30 members of the community involved in that they're doing a wonderful job and overall the whole effort is under the supervision of the Joint Transportation and Resources Committee of the County Board we've just recently gone through a grant award cycle and we've awarded I think approximately 1.1 million dollars of grants to look and you know it's a government and organizations we're in the process now of analyzing additional grants that have been grant requests that have been submitted to us excellent well done thank you Jim you've pretty well talked already about the Marsh Tire Tower anything else you wanted to add regarding that project yeah again I think it's a very valuable addition to the infrastructure at the marsh we have a lot of people coming out there and I think the tower would be a really good addition and it might even be a destination itself for people to come out there but if people might be interested in knowing is that we plan to actually install a video camera on top of the tower with remote controls underneath are at the adjacent marsh lodge so if elderly people or handicapped people don't think they can make it all the way up the 80 feet of the tower they can manipulate the controls and pan and zoom the camera to look 360 degrees all over the marsh and maybe zoom in on something that they're interested in also in our long-term plans we'd like to include a webcam and have that on top of the tower so anybody around the world in the comfort of their own living room can just dial up on the internet and take a look at the Sheboygan Marsh maybe even in China who knows okay now as you said the tower will be in the Broughton Sheboygan Marsh and you've taken a real interest in that what do you think about that as a resource for Sheboygan County yes I have and that's a really good question Bill I think that the Broughton Sheboygan Marsh and wildlife area is a gem I mean it's waiting to be discovered by the outside world almost you know people in Sheboygan County they know about it and you know it's here but it has such a rich paleontological archaeological and historical background I've done a little bit of research and it's it's really an outstanding resource again there's many species of extinct animals that used to live in or around the marsh that might be actually preserved in the marsh itself the marsh area has been steadily occupied by Native Americans for at least 12,000 years and so for at least 12,000 years there's been villages almost entirely around the marsh in fact today there's collections of tools and weapons and points in several different locations numbering in the thousands of pieces that come from this area historically we've got famous figures like Charles Broughton whose namesake is for the marsh he was instrumental in getting the marsh established and under the supervision and funding by the county board we've got John Sexton a very colorful character also that used to live by the marsh and ecologically it's very unique it it's a place that I think scientists people from universities can come and do some studying that might not be possible anywhere else and again it's it should be an excellent tourism destination for people that are interested in this kind of thing so I think we're just at the very beginning and if people have the effort they can really create something here and I'm really happy about that and if people want more information they can either call me directly or go on the county website and we've got more information about the marsh tower or about the marsh itself and if you go on to the county's website you go up to the department's hot button you click that and then you hit the planning link and then under the planning web pages you'll see a lot more information about the tower and about the marsh itself okay you mentioned people could call you don't mean to put you on the spot but you remember your phone number um that's that's gonna be a test bill let's see nine two zero four five nine three seven six five so very good go ahead pass the test another issue is that recently new floodplain maps have been developed for sheboygan county what can you tell us about that process sure um from time to time the federal government through the federal emergency management agency and the state government through the department of natural resources upgrade our floodplain maps as I mentioned earlier we're responsible for making sure that we control and monitor development in the floodplain they've recently um given us draft floodplain maps that are a far cry above the maps that we've used in the past for a long time these new maps are actually um over our aerial photographs and so now we can look at the maps and we can more accurately determine where improvements are like houses and outbuildings and determine if they're on the hundred-year floodplain and the hundred-year floodplain is the regulatory boundary and essentially that means that if you're within the hundred-year floodplain then you're under some fairly restrictive zoning requirements and then lenders usually require that you also have floodplain insurance um right now those draft maps are under review and we're within a 90-day comment period and once those maps are adopted then that's what we'll use for our regulatory decisions and the department was instrumental in hosting a meeting where FEMA and DNR representatives met with citizens developers bankers local units of government and so on to discuss these new maps and I'm pleased that we have them to work with now okay and then finally Jim I see it was a new energetic department head do you see any new opportunities for your department well I do I think um what I would like to highlight in all of my actions is to work with people um better and to develop a team approach um I think if we all work together we'd minimize the use of resources and we might actually get more funding because funding agencies or entities like foundations if we can show that we work together in a partnership they're more apt to fund us also if we pool resources I think we could save money that way I think it's going to be a challenge in the future to provide more services that people demand but yet they expect that to be done with less reliance on property taxes and so that's going to be a challenge for us to live up to the expectations of the people while trying to be more frugal and not relying the property tax levy as much and I I just think that again by working together we can accomplish more other things that I think we can we can accomplish by working together would be land use planning for example and right now the county through the county stewardship fund and the state are giving grants to local units of government to undergo land use planning and so through that process citizens can determine what they want their local area their local community to look like in the future and so through extensive public involvement they work with elected officials and develop a vision of what they want their community to look like and so again most of our communities are currently working in that and I think you know reaching out beyond Sheboygan county we're also impacted by other things you know we've got increasing fuel prices we've got you know more global uncertainty and you know we've all heard about climate change and that sort of thing and all of those things are eventually going to come to bear here and so people might think you know well the price of gasoline is really going to make things difficult and as a consumer or a driver maybe that's true but that also opens up opportunities to us we're lucky and that we're between Chicago and Milwaukee and door county and this gives us an opportunity maybe to make this tourism destination in itself so people will spend more money more time here in Sheboygan county and we've got wonderful wonderful assets here for people to enjoy and visit thank you Jim such a skeptical man isn't he nothing positive on the horizon up there it's it's very refreshing and thank you and it's it's good to hear and you touched on land use planning and the importance of that and and smart growth planning and Dave such our UWB extension agent has been very involved with that and the county has been working closely with the units of government to to get that off the ground and I think from time to time people wonder to themselves oh what is really the difference between land use planning and zoning could you shed some light on that sure that's a really good question I commonly get asked that every once in a while I guess too land use planning I guess could be could be seen as a vision a communal vision for the future in other words how do people in a community want their area to look in the future 25 years maybe 30 years out do they want a lot of development if so where do they want that do they want to protect open space do they want to encourage alternative means of transportation and that sort of thing and a plan can be used by decision makers and elected officials to kind of guide development but that's it that has limitations it's only a guide zoning on the other hand is the legal mechanism zoning is the tool that a local unit of government can use to actually implement the land use plan and zoning really can mediate between property owners I guess zoning sometimes has kind of a bad name or a bad nuance but actually it levels the playing field among landowners so again my personal philosophy on zoning is that I think it's necessary to protect public health in the environment but at the same time I think everybody has the absolute right to do whatever they want with their own property without government intrusion and last however they're going to impact their neighbors that there's any potential to adversely impact how their neighbors can enjoy their property then that's when I think zoning has a role to make sure that everybody has a fair shake and using their land and making sure that one land use doesn't adversely impact somebody else and reduce their property values or make it so perhaps they can't even go outside or play with their children or so on so zoning does have a place and zoning has quite a bit of case law and so it's been supported by the courts I guess the only negative thing about zoning is that you know it can be misused perhaps if the local unit of government isn't really trained and how to handle it and that's that's a nice segue to the next question I like to give Bill Gearing a hard time occasionally because not only is he county board chairman he's a town chairman and also president or chair of the county towns association so I give him a lot of credit for his public service as well as the difficult challenges that he has to deal with at the county level and at the town level and one of the things that I know you just mentioned to me the other day is occasionally you hear people in this community say well the town is going to take the lead and we're going to have our own town zoning and you're never going to see county zoning and some counties as you know have county wide zoning some don't what's your point of view on that well so that's a good question I think Sheboygan County is somewhat unique and that there isn't county wide zoning in fact all the most of the local towns enact and enforce their own zoning regulations and I guess bottom line is it doesn't really make any difference to me it's how the people feel best whatever is best for them I mean if they feel that zoning is best applied through their local township I think that's wonderful if on the other hand people think maybe the county can do a better job I would support that too but it seems to be working here in Sheboygan County so under the system of town zoning I think this could be used as an example of how it can work but again I would I would have to caution that that zoning can sometimes result in controversy as we all know and sometimes controversy results in lawsuits and so if zoning isn't applied equitably and fairly that that could start legal action either against various citizens or against the local unit of government and quite frankly a lot of money can be spent fighting lawsuits that arise from the poor application of zoning I've not seen that here yet by the way and I don't think I will because I've met a lot of the town people when I've gone to the town's association meeting and again I'm impressed with the high caliber of people elected to local office here with land use planning and with the zoning comes decision making about where residential areas are going to be and how you know what the vision is as you touched on and I think a lot of people are under the impression that well the more residential development we have in our area the more growth we have the more property taxes are going to go down what do you think well that's kind of an urban myth or maybe I should say rural myth here there's been many many studied studies dozens or even hundreds that show just the opposite under traditional subdivisions under traditional property development it's usually on large lots and large lots means that you have to have a lot of roads you have to have more miles traveled by school buses more miles patrolled by the sheriff deputies for example and there's more expense involved under these traditional things and also utility companies as another example they have to run more miles of wire or more miles of pipe between customers and so their their costs are higher they have to raise their rates and so actually again all these studies numerous studies show that for every dollar collected from residential property owners in rural areas almost always results in more than a demand from more than a dollar in services and there are ways to combat this however and still allow residential development and I guess my favorite way or I guess the method I would really rely on the most is something called conservation subdivisions and that's where the lot sizes are smaller perhaps and buildings are clustered together and the association or the conservation subdivision might actually own or have title to many many acres of open area forced for example or parkland for the exclusive benefit of the people who live in the housing area and the national association of realtors the national home builders association many other groups as well as people like the Sierra Club all our proponents for conservation subdivisions it's one of these rare things that I found where you've got environmental groups and you know businesses and fairly conservative organizations all agreeing that something is is really beneficial to everybody and that's conservation subdivisions generally the individual lots can sell for more money generally the houses appreciate and value higher and surveys of people who live in conservation subdivisions almost always show a greater happiness of living there and then if they choose to move they can generally turn around and sell their houses or their properties at an increased price so again conservation subdivision is win-win for everybody so growth is not always a good thing but if it's planned well it certainly can be and that's an effective approach to apply in in rural areas well we only have a minute left and I just wanted to ask finally in the the months ahead do you see any key challenges coming your way and I have to emphasize we only have about a minute sure I guess the challenges again would be to try to do everything that's expected of us within budget and I think we can do that and the best way to do that is by working in partnership in teamwork with other departments in county government and all our localness of government and our citizens and I think we can do that and that summed it up right on the head all of us at all levels of government with budget times as they are and resources restraints as they are it's it's becoming increasingly challenging to not only maintain but improve services and programs as people demand them with limited resources and certainly all of our department heads including Mr. Jim Holbert are going to have that challenge but Jim I can't tell you enough how pleased I am to have you aboard I think you're a great addition to our management team and it's just good to have you here in Sheboygan County well thank you very much until next month on behalf of chairman Bill Gehring the full county board and myself thank you for joining us next month we Dave Such the UW extension agent chair will be joining us to talk about UW extensions programs and services and some initiatives in that area so until then thank you for joining us