So I'd like to thank you guys for being here. If you guys is your first time here, please consider subscribing Sterling, I don't know if you can hear us. I can hear you guys. Oh, I can hear you guys. Sorry. Yeah, I can hear you guys Is everything okay? You got it. I can't At least on my side. I'm just checking it on my side. I can't hear your Audio coming through on YouTube He muted himself earlier. Let me see Audio coming through on YouTube I just check the stream they every the audio is on much. Yeah, anyway So yeah, so that's what we're gonna be doing today If you guys could sit or subscribing that'd be great You guys can fire questions in filled life chat and we have if you like what people are saying You can check in the subscription for their links and yeah without further ado. Who do we say was going first? Oh, you can unmute me. That would be me. That would mark. Okay. Awesome Well, why don't you get started? All right. Good. Well, good evening. Good morning, everybody. My name is Mark I am just a pastor from first Baptist Church over here in Subang Jaya by I'm also having the privilege of co-finding a Explain apologetics, which is a local apologetic ministry over here in Malaysia We seek to share and explain the faith through Jesus Christ And I'm given and I'm very happy to be given the opportunity to talk about the question is there in afterlife And so obviously from my Christian background then you will know that I do believe that there is life after death and I do have a couple of things to talk about One of the I want to first and foremost say that the the outline is not directly my own I got it from Professor Peter Creave. He was formerly a lecturer over in Boston College on philosophy But I've added a bit more of my personal look perspective on this So the first thing I want to say about About how they how I agree that there should be that there is life after death is The first point I just want to say is that I don't think there is no there's any good reason to not believe that there is life After death, I'll leave it to Tom. I'll leave it to anyone else in the group to to discuss that Afterwards and also prepare in this presentation if if he has any the second thing I would like to say and this one I will elaborate a lot more is that there are some good reasons to believe that There is life after death a couple of reasons the first one of course is a very good that they're given for authority Some people would say that it is the week one of the weakest arguments, but it's not but Although it is weak. It is still quite a reasonable argument as I as I would like to believe it a simple Perception would be from Peter Creave. He says 40 million Frenchman can be wrong, but it's less likely than for freshmen being wrong So we are talking and we're not talking about 40 million people We're not talking about 400 million people We're talking about 4 billion people who do believe that or at least have the inclination to believe that there is life after death So that's my first thing. The second thing is the whole notion of animal hominism animal hominism is basically is the spirit or the soul of the human being in our experience as human beings we Tend to believe ourselves to be more than just our bodies. So first of all, one very obvious and very simple Reason would be to look at the presence of the soul Think let's not and let's not make it too personally. Why not? We just take a look at a An animal animal. So let's say we have two cows and let's say I present you with two cows Except that instead of just them being two cows one is alive and the other one is dead Now a person he's quite smart really and he looks at these two cows. Would he then notice the difference? by physical mass and by and by and by sure existence there he Both cows are completely the same But the fact that one is alive and one is dead already adds already adds or takes away value on one on the other there seems to be a Just a very Obvious upfront. Well, there's a big difference once alive once a day and the way and the big difference therefore with the soul So there is the presence of the soul and how the soul experience and how the soul is valued It's quite obvious when you put one two animals next to each other one being alive Moreover, there's the idea of the transcendence of the soul. The soul does not just think of Itself as a body. He can actually appreciate the body You can appreciate not just you can't you not just appreciate your own body, but appreciate In even inanimate objects, even if it's just for practical reasons like for example, I appreciate the rocks and stones because I can build a house but the fact that we can do that tells us that we are more than just Physical beings Yeah, there were more than just there were more than just physical beings that the fact that we can Appreciate ourselves means that we are somewhat higher than just our merely our own physical beings And that will have that I'll give credit to the soul that thing is The idea of the immortality of the soul. I Believe it was Plato and Republican He mentioned of the idea that there is evil for it There is evil for everything and this what I mean by evil is things that destroys the very nature of other things so for example rust will cause steel to Rock deal to to decay more mold for the cork mold for corn and even for the soul Plato had said that the soul has something which makes it evil Injustice in temperance cowardice ignorance But does any one of these dissolve and destroy it? The answer is no then since it is not destroyed by any evil at all neither its own evil No foreign ill it is clear that the soul must be of necessity be Immortal and so because the soul is immortal when the physical body dies We then need to ask a question. Where does the immortal where does the immortal soul go and therefore? That would be the premise on the idea of life after death because of the mortality of the soul Final point. I'll have I have is on the very nature of God. That's the only day Two natures or two natures all of who of God comes into mind when it comes to life of the death And the first one is justice true justice Can have a true justice can only happen if there is life of the death now What I mean by that if we think of that if we think of the idea there is no life of the death and If we've done something horrible criminal terribly wrong the best way out of it therefore The best way to get out of justice is to get out of this life and just die because why after when we die it's not it's nothing So Adolf Hitler when he committed suicide in the bunker in a bunker and in the world war two He has practically won he has nothing else to add nothing else to add nothing else to add and there's nothing We can do about it But if there is life after death then the nature of justice which is Then the then full justice which is the nature of God can come into play because soul is immortal and therefore he has he has to pay the mortal consequence and Second thing about the nature of God is love Love is an event love is an irrational thing It seems very natural for us to do things but it seems very but it's also very irrational When we have loved ones and they pass away and they die We grieve This is it because why is it do we agree? This is because we have sentimental value. Well, that could be that could be the reason why Some people would cry and mourn and grieve over the over their loved ones But most likely the trigger of it all is that we will feel it in our heart Or be it a romantic notion, but it is there that our love for the person is Inseparable our love for the person is Very different from loving another for loving another person. I cannot just simply replace One loved one with another loved one It will never be exactly the same and what is the nuance of that of that of that difference It will have to be the uniqueness of the person's soul So of course as a Christian, I would say that for God's sake love the world He gave us one and only son so that whoever believes in him should not perish by heaven eternal life Now of course people say but he perished he died Which is why my final argument and the only I can say personally the only Why I will even believe that there is an afterlife is because of the idea is because Anesthetic because Christ has risen So because Jesus Christ had risen from the dead It is the first edit that is the foundation belief of the Christian faith That is the reason that that will be the only reason why That there is an afterlife why because Jesus did die but he did come rise back to life and therefore it is and therefore there's an afterlife and Not and if not by his miracle or actually mostly by his miracle by adding to his miracle The other thing that we can say that will say is that if it is true that he has risen from the dead Then whatever he has said also must be true and what else has he said he said that I go and prepare a place for you I am there I will come I will come at the end of time I'll come at the end of times and there will be no more grief no more tears And this is the hope the true hope that we have as a Christian when we talk about life after death And I find this to be a lot more relevant today, especially with the number of rising deaths over because of this COVID-19 and One thing that we can say is that one of the mere One of the sheer reasons why we can still have hope and be willing to fight on It's not just the value of the light that we have now, but also the hope that we had in life to come So these are some so these are the points I have regarding How I believe there are some good reasons to believe that there is life of death Thank you for the time. I now pass the time over to Brent who will be sharing the next points Hey folks, thanks for that mark So my name is Brent and Langell. I am a poet playwright comic author and I'm also working on a novel and This is a subject that's actually really close to me The question is is there an afterlife and it's one of the most fundamental important and compelling questions in all of human history The riddle or perhaps joke of death is that some is something that is at the center of every major religious and spiritual tradition we are creatures that Find the concept of our own inevitable annihilation to be exceptionally distressing but if we We owe ourselves to look into it because if we can't answer the question, what is it to die? What will happen to me and most importantly what will happen to those that I love? We gain a huge insight into the next question. What is it to live? No doubt all of us have heard a number of stories that claim to answer this question I will be trying my best today to tell you one of my own Because this is a subject that is uniquely important to me the moment I learned about death I felt a great sadness, but beneath it a kind of joy and excitement What a mystery the toddler version of me thought in a way I couldn't wait to die to see beyond that door to figure out what all the fuss is about That sense of wonder and discovery that I held as a small child has been with me ever since and in fact has informed a great deal of my artistic work as J. M. Barry put it in Peter Pan to die would be an awfully big adventure and from where I'm sitting that is exactly what I hope death to be the final and in every sense of the word ultimate adventure Flash forward to 2007 I was working at a pizza oven at a rock-and-roll and sketch comedy dinner theater when I received a text message My dear friend Adam who had been my first friend in the exceptionally rural Kentucky town My parents had moved me to had died in his sleep. I called his phone His grandfather answered and he told me in his kind broken and harrowed voice that it was true last night Adam passed away My legs became weak my breathing quickened and I sat in the corner for next to the 500 degree pizza oven and I cried I don't know for how long I cried a week later I quit my job and set out to hike the Appalachian trail main to Georgia Death has been with me ever since death has been like a shadow driving me forward with both the carrot and the stick With silence and heartbreak and passion and still underneath at all that sense of childlike wonder I'm going to make two promises in this debate the first of which is that I will conceal absolutely nothing I will be 100% straight with everyone here I will not claim to believe anything that I do not wholeheartedly know to be the case and Second I will at no point invoke what philosopher Alan Watts refers to as quote spooky knowledge Nothing that I say today will be predicated on the claim that I have any kind of unique insight or private revelation or sensory perceptions That do that are not available to the average person Everything that I'm going to talk about is right out there in the open to be experienced by a Buddhist a Christian and atheist or any other Type of human though. I may invoke Buddhist scripture It is only to illustrate what we all already know but don't yet realize because we haven't looked at it from the proper perspective So what is it to die? What is death and what comes after and knowing what comes after how should we behave while we are alive? Well to look at death you have to look at life and what is life? Life is sensory life is experience life is consciousness and as life and death are opposites or as we would in Buddhism say Dependently originate which is a fancy way of saying they go together death is the lack of sensation Experience and consciousness in the same way that cold is a lack of heat and up does not exist without down You can't have black without white and you can't have life without death So then using this frame of mutually arising mutually dependent phenomena We see that life and death are not actually separate things any more than the top of the chess board is separate from its bottom They can never meet because well you can't stack a chess board on top of itself You can't bring the top of the board into direct contact with its own bottom They are simultaneously one and yet forever different. So what comes after death? Well obviously life It is the simplest and most elementary thing in the world after people die other people are born You all know this every one of you But we all play this little game in our heads where we think no those are other people in my case That's it for me I won't follow this very obvious natural law after death comes for me either black will win or white will win Well, that's as absurd as saying that an army of ups would suddenly invade and defeat and colonize down and suddenly everything is up all the time So what will the afterlife be like? Well really you all already know it won't be like being buried alive No one's going to set you on fire for eternity and it's certainly not going to be like being in the Elysian fields or a never-ending church service If anything death will feel very much like it felt before we were born we were born as in it won't Because feeling which is to say sensation and experience are themselves the trappings of life and death is its opposite So death doesn't do that So after death comes life literally Reincarnation now Westerners here reincarnation and find the idea to be comforting But a little too comforting to be believed whereas Easterners Buddhists Taoists and Hindus look at reincarnation and immediately look for a way to get off the ride But of course, you can't get off the ride not while you're stuck on your ego Not while you're thinking of yourself as the little voice in your head as the ghost controlling your body and that right there is the problem The ego that's the little devil who dreams up a million tortures if black ever wins over white or promises you infinite pleasure If white ever wins over black the ego is where this clinging comes from the first two nobles truths state that Existence is duke which translates not quite into suffering as has been widely reported But in the fact of an ever-provading dissatisfaction with life due to the fact that we know it's going to end or in other words Sundays are less sweet because you know you have work in the morning The cause of duke is tanha literally thirst as in the kind of desire or craving that we ascribe to say Ivanka Trump when we see her staring at the very handsome Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. We say oh that girl is thirsty Tana is lust for life in the most negative and self-destructive sense of the term Tana is a blind craving for permanence in an impermanent world based entirely on the illusion created by your ego To stop Tana to stop being so thirsty is to stop duke You don't feel bad about it if you don't cling to it to stop senselessly craving coveting permanence is to stop suffering If you think about this you existing as you are is really the exception and not the rule the rule is you not Existing and considering the total length of the life of the universe We as individuals spend all but a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of that time not Existing and yet we fear it so much because we don't think but if you But if the only universal constant is change and I think that is correct Then you already have an answer to the riddle of death if everything changes always then eventually the state of you Being dead or not existing also changes We know this for a fact because for billions upon billions of years you already didn't exist and then that changed And everything will change back You are born you die you are born you were born again in infinite Combinations and sometimes the same combination if you think about it This is actually the best of all possible worlds because you get to have your cake and eat it too You get to relive your life in exactly the same way you're living it now And you get to have infinite variations and you get to live a life of Infinite multiplicity of lives in every form after every fashion imaginable from peasant to king to fruit fly You get to be all the saints and all the centers and everything in between and through it all the thing that makes it both Meaningful and painful is the constant anticipation that this time might really be the last But it never is because there is a polarity to life It's like a wave and you can't have the crest of the wave without the trough And it's been like this from the very beginning and will always be like this Existence is endless and ever-changing So if your current temporal state isn't the real you and honestly it can't be Then what is the real you well if you're the exception then the rule is the real you and what is the rule? The rule is the flux. It is the dance of energy. It's all of this through it's all of this Throughout all times and places all galaxies. That's the real us as GK Chesterton put it the million masks of God We are quite literally everything that there is Everybody is I you all know you're you and to realize this not on the intellectual level But at a visceral level where you know it where you believe it and feel it in your heart And you know that rascal your ego isn't really there except as a voice and a source of fear for 80 or so years That is enlightenment that is nirvana literally to blow out as in you and That's really what a Buddha is. It's just someone who realizes this it's someone who has seen through Maya the illusion to what? Reality actually is and how we are all connected Nam Mioho Renge Kyo the mystic law of the Lotus Sutra called mystic because it's hard to understand It is hard to see what we are that what we are faced with all this struggle uncertainty pain and impermanence of life is Something that is at its core essentially playful rather than serious. That's why I called death a joke Because it is it's literally a joke. It is a trick that you I we all play on ourselves Because it's very exciting to imagine that the darkness or the light might win It makes for great fiction But also it causes a great deal of confusion frustration regret and misery if you take it sooth too seriously so exhale Breathe out and know that the next wave the next breath is always coming because that's what the cycle of life And death is it is a dance of energy. It is vibration. It is pattern and we're all supposed to dance while the music is playing So dance and don't worry about it so much Thank you. Awesome. So Tom you can go ahead and Go into your opening speech There we go should be good now So the question is is do is there an afterlife and the answer is probably not The way we need to assess if there's an afterlife as well We need to show is any hypothetical afterlife imaginary or real Is it just something we've made up in our heads or does it actually exist and to do that? Well, we need some way to differentiate between these two things these two categories Now we can make up lots of stories that sound nice and mystical and give us hope and Justice and passion and rewards after we die, which is what humans always do because that's what we would like like we imagine Our lives going better tomorrow than they did today But there's not actually any evidence to support that it's just kind of a made-up assertion in order for something to be justified You would need to show that that imagined Perception of what's afterlife actually is afterlife and not just part of your imagination And to do that the system we have to differentiate between what's imaginary what's real is called science Science gives us a pretty grounded basis that we don't have any reason to believe There's anything in an afterlife at all.  Why exactly would there be anything after that? Doesn't make any sense if there was an afterlife why not just make life eternal in the first place So what what is the point of adding in the dying part if life is going to be just eternal? Which is totally possible. There's no logical contradiction with life being eternal So there's no reason to have death unless it is probably going to be permanent But more importantly atheism and naturalism don't actually rule out an afterlife there could definitely be an afterlife It could be a naturalistic afterlife.  So yeah, could there be an afterlife for sure But do we have a reason to believe there is one? No, not at this time We have no way to differentiate all the different imaginary things in philosophy that we could just come up with To explain what's afterlife and just the imaginary things that have no basis in reality And so we have no reason to believe there isn't afterlife, but there definitely could be and I Definitely like to imagine I'm going to wake up as Harry Potter and be able to cast spells that that is my dream afterlife So I can see the rest of my time to the Q&A Awesome, well, I guess we can give it right into the discussion if you guys want to kind of go back and forth Ask each other questions. I'll try not to step in unless like everybody's just screaming for some reason Yeah, go ahead Mark, I think you're still muted Okay, I guess I'll start some things off So I just you mentioned that there would be a not a problem with Life being eternal. I actually take issue with that There's a number of problems with life being eternal like life in the physical reality being eternal if you Actually think that through the first and most obvious one is if you If we lived forever the human brain would not have the capacity to take in all that information So like we would just overload and be forgetting huge chunks of our lives and just have like a set like a computer That's overly full Secondly eternal life. We already do that. We do forget stuff. So that's not a really a problem Right, but my point is is that and if we had eternal life with Like memory of it it would get incredibly boring very very fast Well, that's finally I'm shouldn't so I don't really know if that's supportive Well, I mean if you how would it not get it how bored do you do people start to get towards the end of their lives when they're starting To see the same things happen again and again and again The reason they're bored is because their bodies are decomposing they can't do anything So that's kind of why it's boring. It's not really because they just see the same things It's because they can't do anything new. So if they were they always wish for you It's not like they wish to stop dying. They wish they were young again So they could do stuff, right? But let's say for instance for the sake of thing. Let's do this little Experiment you have a superpower you are eternally young and you have perfect recall So you're not gonna lose what you had before Eventually given eternity you will experience Everything there is to possibly experience and then what are you gonna do the second thing there though is That if you did actually live forever you couldn't be killed And you were eternally young there is a 100% chance that you will eventually be trapped forever somewhere horrible You'll fall down a mine shaft. You'll be covered in What's it called? You'll be covered in cement and you'll spend in a millennia just sitting there trapped unable to die So like dying is really really important in material reality for like creatures Or at least that's my my thoughts on it. Well, yeah, I would disagree with those two points One is that if we're eternal and young forever, we wouldn't necessarily experience everything that actually we can prove that false using Cantor's Diagonal mathematical proof that you can't actually experience everything you can only experience a finite countable infinite number of things and there are More than a countable number of things so you couldn't actually experience everything. Okay, but we'll let's say Podantic you could experience enough that everything becomes an old hat Well, no That would also not be true because you could potentially just find a way to erase your memory if you wanted to and re-experience something There would always be new stories. There's infinitely many. Yeah, but the erasing of your memory is death essentially like philosophically It would be the same thing. There wouldn't be continuity No, I mean people have amnesia. They're not dead.  So it doesn't matter if you remember anything or not. Yeah That might make a point from like somebody's Like that might make sense from outside but from inside. I don't see the difference Well, the definition of life is just simply like metabolism. So as long as you have metabolism, you're alive Memory has a place no part in being alive. So that's yeah Okay, but again, that's that's outside in I'm talking inside out I'm just talking the definition of life like your consciousness and memory isn't isn't a part of actual life It's not it's just something you experience like saying your sense of touch is your life If you lose your sense of touch, you're still alive. It's not you don't actually need that But your second point was that um, we might get trapped at some point Yeah, we definitely will get trapped at some point. You've got forever Yeah, but that's again not a necessity because you could essentially just travel in space in one direction forever and never get trapped There's that's a possibility or you could sit in a chair forever and never get trapped and that's also a possibility Or you could That's the definition of trapped. You just did that on purpose to avoid trapped The definition of trapped is stuck there involuntarily if you're there voluntarily, you're not trapped, right?  All right, all right So there's again, so you wouldn't there's no reason to think you would necessarily get trapped It seems pedantic to me. I just think eventually you're gonna fall down a mine shift And again, you could just say if we're gonna live forever We could also have other powers too like technology would increase as well And so we would be able to essentially like upload our consciousness to a computer and have essentially the same powers as The matrix would that really be you if you uploaded your conscience to a computer your consciousness to a computer If it's your wouldn't that just be a copy? If it's your consciousness, then then it's you It wouldn't be right, but how do you move a consciousness like a physical consciousness that is within your body? How do you separate that from your body and put it in a computer? Uh, you literally just move it So consciousness is a biochemical process in the brain and you can take that biochemical process and replace a cell with a Micro-ship or whatever Uh, it's a mechanical thing one at a time and you will still be there So you just replace one cell at a time from biological to mechanical. That's the ship a thesias fallacy It's not a fallacy. Uh, you could okay not a fallacy, but you're making a ship a thesias argument That's correct because your identity would remain the same your parts Heart won't make you it is the chemical process in your brain So you could replace them one at a time and still be you which is okay to ourselves anyway So what makes you you the biochemical process in your brain? Okay, so the biochemical process in the brain is what makes you you So if there was a copy of that biochemical process like an exact copy, there would be two yous, correct? No, each one of those would be its own you because they'd have two different biochemical processes and two different brains Okay, so how is taking the biochemical process and moving it into an electrical process and a computer not creating two yous It's the same you again. You're just taking your own biochemical process and replacing the cell I mean I get I get the concept that you're taking this ghost whatever you're But I don't see how you can even take the ghost out of the body and put it into something That's not even organic and consider it the same thing Well, again, so you're not you're not taking it anywhere It's your body you just take the cells and replace them one at a time with mechanical cells So it's still your body just like your cells die, you know, so you're saying you you like cyborg yourself So you literally build okay, but then it's not your consciousness. It's your body The bison tenial man Everybody watched that movie Robin Williams, I haven't seen it, but you guys should talk about it.  Will you still be you? Well, you replace all of your biological parts with mechanical parts Yeah, yeah, then that would then the question would be would you still be you? Yeah, I I I can I can imagine there's an idea that it could still be you But it'll be a different kind of you simply because you're gonna have to mechanically Organize yourself a little differently, you know Yeah, yeah, and plus also, um, the 30th is a ship and uh, I'm sorry. I didn't get that name right Which is a ship of theses. Yeah, it's theses. Yeah The ship of theses idea and And and and the bison tailman idea the the one thing they didn't like expand the idea bigger is Will be there would be there for the possibility of cloning so For you for you, Tom you mentioned about replacement, but replacement can also be As they can also bring potential for fabrication. So Uh If let's say we're able to clone you albeit mechanically Would that be to you or would used to be you and the other used to be you and you would not really be you and you And you also would not really be you. No, there would be two different people. What but both have the same right? Same minerals. Yeah, yeah, so what would therefore be the different? What would therefore be the differentiation other than just two physical presences? Um, they have different experiences. So we literally can't exist in the exact same space at the exact same time So one experiences are not real We'll notice if you notice they're not real about experiences are Not alive that because they have happened and therefore we're not really sure as to what our past really happened Uh experiences shape your consciousness So the experience that person a is having because they're in a different space in a different time shapes that Consciousness that brain differently than the person who is experiencing the other one So they're they're different people because there's one consciousness over here in this brain And there's one conscious over here in this brain and they're literally separate entities. They're not connected in any way They can do things differently. I won't take issue with that But you're opening yourself up to the fact that if you define that as personhood That means that you seven years or so later in life or you even from moment to moment are a different person than you were previously Uh, no because personhood is again just the biochemical process in the brain. That's biochemical process is Uh constituent throughout my life. So I'm still the same person from birth to death Even though I made a different parts because it's the same Why is it constituent through but but you just said it's different experiences alter it So, right, so they're two different people because there's two different biochemical processes both going on at the same time But in different locations if they were one person They would be the same biochemical process or they would be connected biochemical processes in some sense because they're separate They're different people. So to follow this down. I know this probably this couldn't happen But let's say by some magic or by some technology We create an exact clone of you with exactly the same biochemical processes And we I don't know say we use a simulation to have it have the exact same experiences you have at all times Is that to use or is that no separate people still two separate people because there's two separate biochemical processes Is it the is it the experiences that make it or is it the biochemical processes? No, no, the those are the same thing the experiences cause the biochemical process Those are those are connected. So the what makes them separate is that they are literally physically separated one and they Are one whatever happens to one will not cause an effective change to the other Which means they are literally separate things It's the law of identity equals a and if there's different properties in one and the other one Then they are not the same thing And so if they are like in different spatial areas, they are literally not the same thing So they're they are just two different biochemical processes Even though they share every other property exactly alike simply because they are like different locations and not connected They are two different people I mean Okay, uh, I I'm sort of getting that but again that seems to fly directly in the face of the uploading your consciousness to a computer Gradually becoming a cyborg. I don't see how is that still one biochemical process that this continually is on the whole time So yeah, so I get the confusion between between uh Between prentin and reading brenton and and and tom because well, let's think about it Let's take quite very simply like bureaucratically If let's say for example, we are able to make twins of tom And we go and register them because we now have two bodies Uh, to which then they will say, okay, who is tom then both said i am But then we'll still have to find the means of differentiation. So there'll be tom jump original and then tom tom jump 2.0 The new coke. Yeah, well kind. Yeah, so by doing that But by doing that you have to by doing that you therefore automatically have two unique identities Yeah, so there'll be two unique identities. So yeah, I mean, uh, the reason why I don't find big I don't find that the Controversial simply because it is plausible. Although I don't find it. Although I don't find it to be very probable Simply because authorship or souls requires much more than just bio biologic biotic cells tom The other thing that you mentioned that I think that brenton will actually would Resonate a bit more is the idea that if you what if it's not just a copy and paste what if it's just a transfer? if it's transfer then the whole then the whole karmic Experience which which you would put that the soul to be yes, it will be booted up It'll be booted up over but because tom I think one thing brenton the work will differentiate with you is that When you go into the computer But when you go into a computer or even for a computer to another biotic cell or another Mechanical to bear the bear your your your conscious identity It would still be quite different because the appendages of which you had first experience yourself to be Will be quite different from From for what you for what you could possibly be So same same but different. That's that's a very common type expression Sure, so yeah, like when you lose an arm or something you'll be different on different experiences too Yeah, but then but you'll be but you'll be a come But if you do a full body transfer it will be a complete difference because not even one appendage of you Will will will follow you and therefore you will be different. You won't be tom jump anymore. You'll be Tom you'll be one of my cousins maybe. Yeah, and you'll probably be made in china. Yeah That's not really a problem in my theory like You're not literally the exact same because yes, you're definitely gonna have changes That's not a problem But you'll be the same person even though you won't be literally exactly the same in every possible way Yeah, it just it seems like what's being drawn here between when a person is a person in continuity And when there is a lack of continuity and two people in one way or another in our hypothetical scenarios here It seems very arbitrary At this point So again, it's just a biochemical process if you have a biochemical process that's going on in the brain That's you and if it's not shared by another biochemical process, then it's just an isolated thing Okay, so so for instance take finneas gauge Finneas gauge takes the frickin Thing through the brain and he goes through a complete and utter personality changes He's still finneas gauge or is he somebody else still finish gauge because still the same biochemical process Even though he thinks differently and acts differently. It's because because that's the biochemical process Okay, but then if the biochemical process is organically is is the same Then we would have two people again Like I mean I think you're complaining what you mean by the same by the same I mean is still the same biochemical process is still occurring in the same brain So like if we take a computer and we drill a hole in the processor It's still the same computer. There's there's a part of it that isn't working the same way So it's still the same process for it to be a different person What you'd have to do is you'd have to end the process completely or divide the process into two Parts and both processes are going on at the same time essentially separate Okay, but say for instance we take we take the the pieces of that computer that's just been Drilled through we remove all of them and we put them inside a new computer with a different tower But like and then replace the the broken piece. That's a completely different computer, right? Yeah, if we stopped the biochemical process and changed all the pieces then yes It would be a completely different computer. Okay, so then Star Trek if you uh beam somebody From a planet to the other you'd completely disassemble them and then put them back together Then you've killed them and just put a new person and in the air. Yes, I would argue that is a new person Okay, you're consistent at least with that I yeah, I kind of disagree Tom may I go may I ask you from the other perspective so the classic Jekyll and Hyde same body but different Same body same body, but different chemical reactions. I suppose everybody does take a drug and then he becomes a totally different person Yep, are they therefore uh, are they therefore too consciousness in the same body? Yes, we actually we actually know of many cases like that. It's called If you damage the forget it's called the cerebellum cerebrum Uh cerebral cortex is the thing that connects the left and the right hemisphere of the brain And if you damage that then the left and right hemisphere of the brain starts to develop independently And you actually get two completely different people two personalities that develop in the brain separately from one another So you do actually get two different people in the same brain Wait, so then So then Phineas gauge is two different people. No because that's still one consistent Biochemical process the reason can you show me exactly where you're where you're drawing the line here? I'm just trying to figure this out It's again. It's a coherent biochemical process so the biochemical process in The case where you damage that part of the brain which I kill me I can't know what it's called It separates the left and right hemisphere of the brain So there's a biochemical process going on the left which is separate from the biochemical process going on the right There's two separate biochemical processes Okay So the biochemical process is happening in the brain Correct, or is it happening throughout the entire body? The brain you can you can have it without the body. Okay, but like for instance There's a lot of evidence for instance that like wounds to the stomach will cause Drastic changes in personality. They can cause depression as severe anxiety that they would otherwise have So clearly like biochemical processes that's happening in the brain is also happening in the rest of the body. It wouldn't just be It wouldn't just be localized in the brain Well, no, it's uh, you can affect the biochemical process in the brain by Damaging other parts of the body or just showing people different kinds of pictures But there's a certain kind of necessity like you need the brain for the biochemical process of consciousness You don't need the stomach like if you remove someone's stomach, which has happened. We do that In medicine occasionally And then we replace it. Yeah, we can remove those and the consciousness is fine Even though it's going to be different there's going to be different feelings different responses from the body Different things just like losing an arm or whatever It's still the same biochemical process But if we damage the brain it becomes a different biochemical process for you So then if the the let let's say this um, okay, so like The person they've got their biochemical process running. They're that person Then they die, but this is in the future. Let's say the let's say they completely come to a stop. They're completely dead But we develop some technology in the future that allows us to revive that person and restart that biochemical process Are they a new person or are they still the same person? Probably a new person depends like what happens in the meantime But I would guess a new person like if we like biochemically froze them So there was absolutely no changes at all like the moment they died They could still be the same person but as long as there's going to be some like physical changes They may that's probably a different person Let's make sure that mark gets some questions in too. Just because I know I'm sorry I find the composition very interesting. I think I'll just oh, I apologize corpus callosum. It's the corpus callosum Yeah, okay Okay, so I mean my I mean my take from I mean my take from this it would be uh Brenton we both I think one thing One thing I find this argument to be very interesting is because I will have one foot with tom But the other foot with brenton and yet at the same time if I could put my butt on another chair It'll be christianity. So it'll be so I'm kind of nicely not lodged kind kind of yes kind of no Within all you guys. So I think brenton what you and I will find a little bit the Interesting for what tom is what tom is mentioning is that we have to understand that For him hardware is the hardware is secondary software is primary So if you take the if you take the the the mechanism or the That may be bio that may have a bio chemical a biochemical or even just like information You transfer from one to the other I mean we do this all the time like when we buy a new computer we clone over and then you look as if it's our Our old computer from before but it's in a new body and therefore we can do much more You know, uh, so uh, tom. I'm sorry. I'm sorry if I'm misrepresenting you But it does sound to be like that of mechanically, but you're speaking for more biological Uh construction, you know, so Uh, so that will be so that will be one thing that brenton I we will not necessarily agree with because we believe that the software itself would be quite unique and and the reason why it's unique is because it's a go through a certain What's another word for patina? You know, it's got to go through from one from one life into another one life to another with experience of Previously being let's say in an older computer and now going into a new computer You know, so the experiences from the older computer to new computer will affect the person's consciousness. So, uh, Same so like I said again same same but different and brenton. I would agree with you that uh, What tom would be saying sub would seem to be quite arbitrary Only because out of all the of all the genius that is happening in all of these like systems and mechanisms uh That there needs to pose a possibility for an author There's it only becomes arbitrary because it has no meaning Externally externally to like an author and editor or reader or reader So for that's why from the christian perspective that person would be god the author of effective of faith The person who the person who writes everyone uniquely Everyone uniquely and therefore gives purpose purpose morality destiny and therefore love and justice And all the aspects are so that so that we might input on it one question for brenton Um Because in your description earlier you mentioned that you know, uh, because of the karmic circle And then the hope is to pursue the nirvana So, uh, while in pursuit of nirvana, we're still in a circle. We're still in the circle of dukkha A living dying living a dying which will which it was which rightly call it reincarnation But if good then becomes bad and then back come that then becomes good Then can become good so on so forth. How does karma play into that system? Since bad is good good is bad. So there's not really much of a difference Yeah, well you you in a way, there isn't really much of a difference and I really appreciate you using earlier used karma correctly Um, because a lot of people like in in the west tend to think of it Like it's a video game and if you do something good you get good points and do something bad You get bad points they get stuck to your soul and you know an 18 plus book that 18 plus book which which is the first name of sutra yeah, so um, like uh karma the way that karma plays in this karma is doing it is action it is the the law of uh, the way that sakura kata puts it is is the law of uh cause and effect And so karma really can't be escaped from life to life. Um, like you mentioned souls and there the way I like to think of it is is that because they're because of the doctrine of anatman No, no self no soul that it's an illusion There's really one big soul essentially that is being reincarnated constantly into literally everything that there is The the hindus call it brahman you know so What happens with karma is when you do something in your life that has effects good and bad and um, That will ripple out every action has a million ripple reactions You know you see like chaos theory and the butterfly flapping its wings and whatever So I mean in a certain extent good is bad and bad is good in that they are all karma They're all doing and it is the thinking about them the our unique subjective perspective is in as organisms that make karma good or bad But either way karma is kind of something that uh, buddhists are looking to get beyond to transcend um, so you know the idea being that uh There there's a quote that I do want to read later on uh from the lotus sutra from the 16th chapter Which is it's been called the the beating heart of the of mahayana buddhism And literally in it the buddha says there is no cycle of birth and death There is no existing in this world and later existing in the other one. It is uh neither consistent nor diverse the Concept that he's getting at right there is samsara is nirvana. They're the same state It's just in where your brain is and how you're looking at it that really gets you to where it is So, you know once you get to an enlightened state and you've seen through this, um, you know The karma doesn't touch you as much as it otherwise would because you know it's uh, I think desaka keda has put it as it's like surfing the the waves and valleys of existence you can turn the frustrations of life and the discords of your life and people's lives Into a source of joy, even if you are having difficulty in the moment Like being a buddhist being enlightened doesn't make you a superhero or anything. Uh, but it does uh, again, it's Blow out and realize what you are faced with is is not something serious necessarily So I guess that's my answer. That's how karma plays in.  It's just us playing like we're not god if that makes sense I appreciate I appreciate the way that you you you phrase the the universality of karma because um here in malay here in malaysia We can get a little bit. Um, uh, what's the sectarian meaning to say that oh, that's what you believe The sectarian so what that's what you believe that's what I believe and that what we can never really mean But you're a bit more encompassing So I would say that uh, even that but based on your own what based your own this based on description earlier, which is uh, what are the Major issues that I get on a regular basis while being here While being here with Buddhism available right right beyond here Yeah, so my my question that so my question then to you is that uh, or two things if uh, some If some sorrow is a doing Or karma and some sorrow is a doing and therefore that that will bring about evil and It will bring about evil and suffering Then the logic from that would be that not doing it. Uh, so Sangha meaning to be put away to go to a good way to go to monastery and not do And not do those things it will be in effect bring forth good karma With that would have read but I mean it might well it might right but And the reason why I think it would it might not it's simply because the absence of something the absence of doing something Especially in the face of evil does not necessarily become good. In fact, it becomes an even worse A worse evil and that's called indifference Yeah, I'll give you I'll give you a you know, Nichiren Dishonin the originator of my sect Was very very hyper critical of a number of buddhists sex because they were not out doing good in the world directly Yeah, so humanism so so I uh, I have friends were in the suji foundation. So they also are humanistic buddhism So they so so for them is the idea of the bodhisattva Cannot bear the idea of suffering upon others anymore. And so he goes and imparts Uh imparts the dharma the sangha and the buddha so that people will be able to get Uh, they'll be able to attain it along with him. I just have some problem with that notion when the buddha or when the buddha or the bodhisattva decides to descend down and Decide to descend down and and wishes to Share dhamma Dhamma sangha and the buddha Wouldn't that in itself be a form of tannat and therefore he would disconnect himself from his bodhisattva Uh, you're talking about um, isn't the is the desire to bring others to enlightenment also desire Yeah, isn't the desire to not desire in itself desire. Yeah, that you're totally right And that's actually one of the first things in buddhism like when you when you When you go after buddhism seriously like when you study it. That's one of the first things just about any, um Practitioner of buddhism will learn about like and it's something that the Uh teachers want you to come to on your own to realize that okay, how am I Desiring of design. It's the same thing like with catholics and grace. How do I get grace? if I am You know, how do I become a good person if I am not already born being a good person I can't get to grace from a selfish place. It's exactly the same thing, but again, that is a That's a that's like a colon that um, you need that you use as a mental exercise Tanna is not the total lack of desire and I think you see a lot of this in Oh, what's it called? You see a lot of it in uh theravada teaching sometimes and I don't know as much about theravada as I know about Mahayana, so I may be getting this completely wrong, but like I mean, I I've done some psychedelics in my life. I took I took molly and lsd together one time and totally lost all Desire for a short period of time, you know, and it was great, you know for a short period of time where I was like Oh, I'm the buddha, but I wasn't actually the buddha in that instance. I was just repressing the the physical desire within my body tanha again is craving. It's desiring to a A level where it hurts you so the the buddha emanation essentially as a as a bodhisattva However, that's going to be because in fact in soka gakkai all members of soka gakkai anyone who spreads the lotus sutra Is a bodhisattva of the earth Um, so we don't really think of that as so much of as a magical being as again We are all sleeping buddhas and that bodhisattva is the buddha awakening within you um, so you know You can whether that would mess with like the metaphysics of it. I I mean it might I Don't really find that to be a compelling question. Um, like I found your question compelling, but I don't find um The specifics of what happens to like the I don't think the buddha is a superhero that's going to descend and then get sullied by this world Um, there's a big thing and I see this a lot in western thought and this kind of uh tj um kind of brought it up When he said like he doesn't think that there's life after death because he sees it ending with just one person um And that's this distinction that you see in the western Style and it's like western religion bleeding into western style atheism. It's almost a religious version of it in the sense that Like there is the distinction between the sacred and the profane the worldly and the divine And at least the way I look at it. There is no separation whatsoever The sacred is the profane the worldly is the divine again. Nothing is either good nor bad, but thinking makes it so I got a question for both of you. I haven't asked. I haven't gotten to ask any questions yet So a little excited about this Yeah, how do you show that your belief isn't just imaginary because as far as I can tell there's no reason to believe Anything you just said it's very nice. It's very pretty. I don't believe any of it's true Why should we believe either of what you just said is not just imaginary? Uh mark, do you want to go first? let me see From okay, so tj from heart and so tj from heart to heart I would say this now. It is true that if it weren't for if it weren't for christ If it weren't for the claims of christianity, I would rather believe that there is nothing else of the life and it's what and simply It's simply because it's very convenient. You'll be the same convenience of thought which People would have had if they had a very sucky life that might it's going to end, you know By the same time by the same time those who have left a very good life And then it's going to end and then it was also going to end at least I can say oh, I ended in the I ended in the high Like I had it I ended in the high note But for me the issue would be would be the fact will be on just two Main things one is from the argument from authority and yes, uh You can say that let's say you can say well 40 million people can be wrong In fact, uh millions of germans got it really wrong when they both said right. Yeah, I can agree with that But we're talking about billions of people throughout history counter Discussing and dialoguing and they were a number of atheists I mean even in the jewish, uh, even the jewish community that were the Sadducees who believed that there's nothing of the life And we are arguing and discussing about that. But equally I would say that Just a claim that just a claim that is in that that is imaginary Uh It's not sufficient to say that it doesn't it's not sufficient to say that uh to prove that it doesn't exist Uh, however, as long as the idea is probable Then it is something worth to dialogue and discuss about and Pascal's wager also comes into the play into this I mean like for example, let's say it has nothing Let's say you're right tj if there's nothing then I might I live a very good life, you know, I have a wife I have a daughter. I'm in sunny southeast asia. It never snows here. It's nice and warm all the time sometimes a little too hot I'm thankful and if I die now if I keel over while eating my fourth bowl of rice, uh, I will be that's absolutely fine But if there is a consequence, let's say there is karma for example to granted then yes, then uh, it gives me a bit more uh How's the word how's to say it gives a bit more holding up on myself? What holding up on myself or yeah, uh, uh A pause and therefore a a moral distinction that I probably would need to live something Which is a bit higher than myself The unique case about jesus is that because he claims that only through him Then we can live because then we can have eternal life then I would say okay. I will rather therefore go to this extreme uh, this extreme, uh belief simply because he claims full exclusivity Whereas and while I am practicing my full exclusivity to jesus christ Then I automatically qualify in my opinion I will qualify within buddhism to live a very good karmic life and at the same time I will I will go to ttj. Oh if we all died if we all died there's nothing after this like that. No In the in the common religious stance. Yeah, it's like that So so just to summarize your reasons that it isn't imaginary or one It makes you feel good two There's lots of people who believe it three pascal's wager and four jesus said so those are the four reasons Most most so on the fourth If if the fourth wasn't real then the other three I'll just dump it. You know what I mean? Okay. Yeah, I don't see any of those as actual reasons to believe something isn't imaginary like I'm not Yeah, I'm not surprised jay because you you have asked a number of other Uh people far more qualified in christian theology than me And I have followed you in a number of your videos where the title is the same, you know Is there a good reason to believe in god and I will concede to the simple fact that you know, uh, If three four or five different kinds of philosophers and philosophers that you just can't Can't convince you then I'm not I'm not even going to attempt and just say by that law, you know, uh Yeah, so I just hope that in the end of the day, uh, bill creake says it in the nicest in that I hope one day that you will be that you will have that experience And from the experience then transcends from the idea of an imaginary to reality Oh, yeah, I totally I totally understand that cinnamon But the point I'm making is that those arguments we can show those can't differentiate between what's imaginary and what's real We believe things that make us feel good even though they may be imaginary And lots of people believe things even though they may be imaginary Most people used to believe the world was flat at one point That's not that doesn't mean that that was more likely to be true just because everyone believed it And most people like to believe that afterlife is like a good thing or like pascal's wager An afterlife funder atheism equally as likely as an afterlife funder theism So either belief is equally as likely to get you reward and jesus. I don't think like The testimony of the gospels isn't doesn't show that that wasn't imaginary. It's just it's just testimony So none of those those arguments we can show those arguments can't differentiate between imaginary and what's real And that was kind of what I was asking is how do you do that? But I do want to get to brenton because I haven't heard his response yet. Thanks So I I would actually be I'd be interested to hear one of the things that you think I believe that is imaginary because I haven't made any Supernatural claims whatsoever Well, yeah life is the afterlife that comes after Like the it's just a different way of looking at it where you're not looking at it from the perspective of the single ego here You're looking at it as the whole process. Okay, let me be more specific when I die. I will then come back to life I mean or continue so okay your When you die Like your ego that's going to be annihilated because it wasn't real to begin with Like if you go and you take a person for instance and you peel back the layers We're we're like onions in the sense we think that there is an ego. We think that there's a core We think there's this thing like you talked about the biological process But there's nothing in there.  You're doing the stuff that you've done within your life Okay, that let's go with that. That is a really good example. So why would we believe that isn't imaginary? What the because you physically did stuff and it has Action and reaction. We know that that happens Sure. So so again, but my biochemical process when that ends so do I permanently Right, but not the mark that you left behind when you end any children that you had will continue on anybody that you screwed over Will still be screwed over anyone that you helped will still be helped the karma continues beyond your your individual body here But then eventually the atoms in your body will be rearranged and you'll be reborn in another form And you will be affected by that karma and everything else Um that that part that part the reborn part like why why I think that's not imaginary Well, because it's obvious after people die other people are born after animals die other things are born So you just look at the process from a blown out standpoint as opposed to from an individual egotistical standpoint Well, I agree that new things are born like evolution creates new species all the time But why I think the old species the me is going to come back If I can translate a little bit so that maybe we can maybe you can be on a On a middle ground about this. I think There's the there is this principle that there's this principle of Of conserving of energy conservation But the energy can be creative energy can never be created or destroyed. So therefore just transforms So I've heard that from the valuable Casey blue diamond that he's a trevada buddha He was a trevada buddhist over in in malaysia and he says yeah, the concept energy is just transformed But when it transforms is that energy is still the same energy or is it a different energy? To which then the answers it is the same energy because in the end is one energy but just transforming within itself. Yeah, so So that's real not not you tj. You are actually the dream And the reality is the energy itself And just the difference between Brenton and myself is that for him He will put the idea is that that energy is the is the conscious is the conscious is the being and the being Whereas for me that was for me the physical remains the physical can remain physical But the soul is by soul is a it's a very separate Narration is a very separate narrative all together Yeah, so like there's this thing that you will really see like with western style atheists And I used to be a western style atheist before I became a practicing buddhist and I think it kind of comes from the fact that um In christian tradition a lot of times Jesus was associated like And especially god like god our version of god comes from zeus from the greeks That's why he's got the long beard and the robes and a lot of our the ways that we behave are based upon like Human political organizations catholic church is based on medieval courts and the monarchy Where the sovereign is god or jesus or the priest with his back to the wall Protestant churches are based on courts Like and then you you just transpose the pastor with the judge And what what's what happened was there were all of these religious wars in europe all of these prosecutions it was very bloody very Horrifying and when we ran our society off of this and people had just had enough of it And we said no no we're done. We're done with being viewed by this all-seeing eye from god. I mean you saw uh, what's his face?  I'm hearing some of the best music in the universe um so really like What I find too often is the emphasis in western style atheism on this type of materialism That basically means you have to look at the world like it's crap and you have to be pissed off about everything all the time Now i'm not saying you necessarily do that But i'm saying there is definitely a tendency in that that I that I see in western atheists. It's something that I felt Before I found buddhism And before I started practicing And that since I've come through that and come to the place where I am now I can look at you know the wonder of life in the universe and my place in it You know as a piece of the great brahma You know a piece of the universe that and when this body dies when I disappear Well, that's okay because i'm going to come back in a bunch of different variations Now I will give you this quick thought experiment though because you asked like how um Would you yourself come back the biochemical process all of that and I don't know if you'd consider it like this But I did find this pretty interesting um Given an infinite amount of time We know that your life happened the way that it happened once the big bang happened everything Came together and all of the different karma came together so that you would live the life that you are living right now And you're talking to me and then eventually you're going to die, right? Well, if we give that infinite time and if we hold in our heads the idea that the only constant in the universe is change Eventually that state as I said my opening statement is going to change the state of you as you are being dead will change And eventually if it happened once it will happen again And you will wind up living the exact same life that you are living it may take aons It may take more time than would happen But it will eventually happen given an infinite timeline and infinite change Okay, so two questions for you one is Is there anything in your position which you would disagree with physicalism? Uh physicalism define physicalism matter in motion nothing more no Okay And the second thing was you mentioned that uh, we would come back in the same physical form Uh Later on and that's that's been addressed in the mini worlds hypothesis because if there's infinitely many worlds Hypothetically there'd be infinitely many of us, but that doesn't work because that would assume. Well, I was I'm talking about one world Well, no, it's the same thing the infinite's going in the future and just having one universe after the other And having just infinitely the universe to spread out anywhere would have the same Uh mathematical implications, but the problem is is that That would assume that the laws of physics have a specific kind of Similarity in each of these universes if there's a different kinds of I mean they wouldn't have to because if you're going for infinity eventually You know like if it happened once it can happen again So there's no reason why it couldn't so let's say there's a many worlds theory And there's a bunch of worlds where the laws of physics work differently. Okay, then you live a slightly different life Or a very different life depending upon how that goes But eventually it will happen where the physical laws come back together in very much the same Conflagration that they did today like Yeah In in the way they address this in the mini worlds theory is that there are more possible worlds than Could possibly exist like again, it's the cantors diagonal proof theory that there's a bigger infinite than possible infinite world So of all of the worlds that actually exist that doesn't mean that all worlds exist Yeah, so it doesn't so you're talking about the potential Yeah, so it could be that there is a spectrum of worlds that can exist and will exist And it may be that certain of them will not repeat So it isn't necessarily the case that you will exist again I mean, I'll say that certain may not repeat because again if we're using change as a constant But if it came together once I can see why it would repeat And I would see it would be slightly more likely that it would repeat than it wouldn't Um, but yeah, like I mean honestly a lot of what I said like in my opening statement I mean as far as like a lot of like western style materialism that I look at I don't really disagree with western atheists on the the rules in the physical world I just think they're looking at it the completely wrong way Um, and so like the reason why I believe the way that I believe is one. It's made me a lot happier It's led to a lot more success. So great for me And and two it just it makes a lot more sense than the very dour And depressing way that I was looking at it before I have a question about that though. You say it makes more sense But you agree with everything in the worldview. You're just calling it something different. How does it? There's I agree like Okay, so there's basically the stuff that they say and then there is the emotional content that goes with it Um, like again, if you listen to Alan Watts, and I highly recommend everyone does because he's phenomenal at this Um, you know, he talks about uh prickly people and gooey people You know and there's people who like want to be very like hard-nosed and like exactly and what you find oftentimes with that attitude and you do see it in the like the skeptic community is really like that is toxic masculinity That is like this idea based upon You know, um, almost like empire where people and you even see it with sam harris where he starts about like how we've got a Genocide all of the muslims like There's this idea that like life is awful and life is suffering and we've just got to accept it We've got to bite that bullet and I don't accept that Emotional content that comes along with what science has discovered about the material world Uh, I I essentially look at the same data and come to a different conclusion about that data if that makes sense Well one sam sam harris never said to wipe out. He didn't he didn't literally say it, but he kind of implied it I think he was implying that we needed to get rid of the extremist ideology not necessarily the model Yeah, but get rid of him by a nuclear first strike. I think that was purely a hypothetical I don't think he actually yeah, but I mean purely a hypothetical. I get it I understand where he was coming from there and I don't think like if I if you talk to sam harris He wouldn't say I support genocide. He's not like the guys I was arguing with a few weeks ago But I do think that that ideology and the way he talks about muslims and like the way he talks about like I think that enables people who want to make war on muslims And a lot of times like you got to think we in the west came from a conquering colonial Empire and there are a lot of justifications and some of them have come religiously. We're we're converting people to christianity Some of them have come technologically. Hey Some of them I mean, I would totally agree that they use that language They totally use that language in a way to justify their position I totally agree with that But I have one last question which was you said you came to a different conclusion than the physicalists Now for me from my perspective, it just looks like you have a different interpretation You have the exact same conclusion. You just call it something different. What do you mean when you come to a different conclusion? I mean I come from a different conclusion in that I value different things at the end of it The the physicalists a lot of the time are very stuck Inside the the human head and the human body and the individual experience Whereas I see that kind of as a trap So I engage my empathy and I expand outward from my body and try to be less attached to it And as a result of being less attached to it, I'm happier I'm more successful and I'm far less worried about death than I would otherwise And I I don't actually have to believe in magic to come to this conclusion You know, I just have to look at the facts in a more universal way in a more connected way as opposed to a more Disconnected way like Ultimately when we're When we're like we talked a lot about like what makes a person when it's a person and when it's not a person And you heard me say I felt like it was a little arbitrary how we were doing it You know, like if you look back at history people will arbitrarily say, okay So this period right here, this is the renaissance and this period right here This is the dark ages and this period like here. This is the but it's arbitrary We're just grouping them into those categories because it has utility to us And I see the same thing happening with people with individuals with the idea of death and life after death Okay, yeah, that's all my questions.  I was wondering how plausible or probable. Do you think that is? Um, I think it is A more slightly more possible plausible than a god existing but very improbable Okay. Yeah, so yeah, let's not push that But I think there's been kind of arguments of how that will complicate things more and then you then you would say Or then but then god is more complicated. Then yeah, let's let's not go that way I have uh, you know what I find the most compelling thing of a god existing in the fact of And keep in mind. I'm not A believer in a god and the traditional especially not like a western kingly sense of a god, but A designer of the universe. I will say this. This is the single most compelling bit of evidence that I have found it Um, and it is the existence. Uh, by the way, we're just about we're about to turn into joe rogue and I apologize The existence of dmt in all organic life from like blades of grass up to humans And um, like if you've ever done dmt Um, it's like one of the most single most powerful hallucinogenics known to man And when the human body is dying It gets a huge dose of dmt to the brain and a lot of other organisms do as well Now what's really interesting about this is is that anybody who has Experimented, um knows that it will mess with your sense of time and I already don't have a good sense of time because I have a dd that may be in the next like 10 minutes. We can wrap this up and get to If that's okay with all of you guys Yeah, that's great. That was a really interesting point where you said dmt is a reason to believe in god Well, I mean dmt isn't even the most potent chemical in the human body I think oxygen is because if you have too much or too little of that it'll actually be more of a Um more of a high. Yeah Right It was actually like one of the top five most common elements in the universe too Cool. Well, yeah, but anyway, my point being is is that um We talked about life after death and the one thing that I wanted to bring up is Is if you if you're messing around with your perceptions Um, and I have a dd. So I literally don't notice the passage of time. This whole conversation seems to have taken 15 minutes to me about um and If you mess with that with drugs it gets even crazier So what's very interesting is is that some people actually think like you do dmt and you actually die It's a way to die and come back because the experience of getting high is very similar to out-of-body experiences my thought is this if there was a god and This being did design the physical world but was not within it It makes a lot of sense that they might actually Give a way for beings to actually experience the an afterlife to transmit from one to the other Or to just have the experience of an afterlife and so a lot of people have have Speculated that when you're dying when you get that shot of dmt What happens is is that the time slows down and you literally spend an eternity in the few minutes before you die That is your actual afterlife your afterlife is generated by your brain as you go And that's kind of a way of like having your cake and eating it too Particularly even in a buddhist sense. I'm not saying I believe that but I find that to be a very very interesting thing And it is incredible that that chemical is in literally every piece of organic life Well for for me. I mean, I appreciate the Angle that you're coming from random. In fact, uh, that could actually possibly open up the discussion for more The idea of obi e out-of-body experience and the e near death experience how there are similarities You know people see a white light to which then tj. You probably will point out that that's why biochemical things happening in the back of your brain And there's even there's even some consistency to say that you know those chemicals in the background Those are the ones that giving you those are the things that give you the white light experience But uh, that's signed, but there will be a very scientific Application on on the science Whereas for whereas for me looking from a christian philosophy point of view It will be that well, of course, you're going to see some physical Reactions, but that's not the thing that's in control for to me the soul will be in control of that rather than Rather than rather than the body Yeah, absolutely. So sorry to turn things into we don't have enough Yeah, we don't have no problem But and we don't and sad to say we don't have enough time to go into all that detail Maybe you can do that another time. Yeah, because obi e and de is also one of these. Um I just want to put in just one Just one story if I may because Brenda either rented and DJ I think one thing that we did mention although just like like a flash by Is the idea of how religion can be manipulative? Uh, and I would like to agree and I will agree that uh, uh, definitely so you shared quite a bit on um Christianity and how it was very much. Mr. You misused Uh, uh, I was very misused and I would Confess to it and I confess to it admit to it repent of it and that's why get the person over and it's also off Which I to which do which I'm of that tradition Uh, but I also want to share that in my experience also, uh Can't that karmic? The manipulation of that karmic philosophy Uh, it's also a quite rampant here in southeast asia. So one example that I would like to share is that Uh, that was one time I was doing some I was providing Help for young people over in thailand who from a very young age They were told that they were transgender that they were transvestite that they were called they were they were They were boys, but they were supposed to be pretty looking girls Uh, and be manipulated into the sex industry in the in the in the red red light district area in in thailand so for us And and to me the one thing that I did find is that they weren't just like pushing it They really made it quite complex. So the gangster would pick up the boy From the we'll pick up the boy from the from the suburbs or in the farm area Bring him to the city and teach them and teach them manipulated dharma and karma to a point to say all the reason why your father sold you to me And you get money and he got money and now you're my slave. It's because you it's because it's because of come It's because of karma you paid you guys were to pay for this now And then this gangster also said but because I believe in karma I have a good idea for you and that is this you work with me until you're 20 years old Yeah, you will be into you will be until you're 20 years old and when you turn 20 years old I will release you to which then you have a choice You either continue to work under me as far as I'll be your pimp Or you can go and try and find a job on your own like you're free To which then I have a lot of a lot of the young people because they have been Manipulated for eight years at least into that system. Of course, they will say I will go back under the pimp so one of the things that I find to be most Opening to them is that when we find that we literally go onto the streets They are you turning 20 soon? Are you turning 20 soon? Are you turning 20 soon? Then if you are we provide free food free lodging and rehabilitation and help so they may go on to be Are going to be going to be successful people and one of the things that we do have to Break it from them is to let them know that they are not By product by product of a comic of a comic reconditioning They are not they are not the recycled they're not the recycled material of a previous life You probably were not evil in the light before you were just very much manipulated in this life Then for us the god for them for us to cure will that will be that the gospel renewal it renews them It gives them a new life It gives a new life experience. It gives them a new Pace of life and that's why one of the What one of the testimonies of that will be The champion cheerleading coach in the southern district of thailand was was one of those boys slash girls down back to a boy Finding new life new hope in christ and did nothing dying was going to help Did nothing dying to Dying literally was going to help them But at least putting to death what happened in the past and finding it a new in jesus christ actually helps Actually gave them that new Visage of life.  I love it. Um, yeah Uh All right, so we're are we doing like a closing statement? Are we just going straight into the question and answer? I'm going to just q&a Um, if you guys do you guys want to do a closing statement or do you guys just want to go right into questions? Uh, there's a thing I want to read but um, you know, if people are anxious to go straight into the questions I I can like post it elsewhere or something. Okay. Um, I think that yeah, I will have to be right back I I seem to have an urgent call. I'll be right. I'll be right back to me one minute Uh, how long is the thing you have to read? Yeah, go ahead read it. I'm pretty short. Um All right, so this is uh on death by Khalil Gibran Um, you would know the secret of death, but how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life The owl whose night-blown Nightbound eyes are blind onto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light If you would indeed behold the spirit of death Open your heart wide onto the body of life for life and death are one even as the river and the sea are one In the depths of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond Like the seed dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring Trust the dreams for in them is hidden the gate to eternity Your fear of death is but the trembling of a shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honor Is the shepherd not joyful beneath his trembling that he shall wear the mark of the king Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling for what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and melt into the sun And what is it to see breathing but to free the breath from its restless tides that it may rise and expand and seek god unencumbered Only when you drink from the river of silence Shall you indeed sing and when you have reached the mountaintop then you shall begin to climb And when the earth shall claim your limbs then shall you truly dance A little Gibran is legit that guy's amazing You shave both of them Oh, that's cool, I mean blown out as nothing so there's a big confusion There's some buddhists that believe it's literally a cessation where you're not being reborn anymore Modern buddhists don't tend to believe that or at least not mahayana buddhists from modern mahayana buddhists from my sect Nirvana is a state of mind It's a way of looking at the world as opposed to a another realm of existing or not existing if that makes sense So, I mean christianity like you could have christianity with an afterlife and you could also have nirvana like That's one of the unique things about buddhism is you know buddhism people of my sect will say it works whether you believe in it or not And it tends to work with most if not all Religious faiths and ideas. There's ways that it's very compatible and in fact There's a very strong case to be made that jesus christ was a bodhisattva He didn't spread the lotus sutra explicitly, but I think he definitely fits the The definition of a buddha and the behavior of a buddha if you read the lotus sutra Which is the other quote that I may or may not read eventually in here Um, they're saying sterling you're muted in the chat. Do you see that? Yeah, they keep saying they can't hear you on Modern innovate for me. Oh, they can't hear me. Yeah, okay. Maybe I'm just not close up to the mic because it's It's coming out. Um, so The turn it up a little bit I'm seeing nothing but the mustache now Yeah, my bad I don't think that's it because they could hear you before so I think it maybe like Does it still say I'm muted stream right now or? Um I have to wait and see if the chat updates in a few seconds. But so far. Yeah, they're saying they're still repeating them big muted sign and starling muted I mean, we can repeat the question. Yeah, you have if you want to keep moving Yeah, you could say it and then we can repeat the question and then that'll work Yeah, I don't know. We hear you now. It's neph nephi says we hear you now Okay, I don't know what happened. I maybe I just wasn't close up to the mic Um, so the question was any differences in atheistic or buddhist after life if nirvana can be said is Blown out of existence. Um, this was by c e freddo sarabia Um, and that's what I just answered. Yeah, that's what you answered. Um, next one by from the same individual T jump saying possible afterlife doesn't disprove That's right. It's not meant to you have the burden of proof if you claim there is an afterlife You'd have to show there is one that exists and isn't just imaginary So that's that's kind of the point is that it's not meant to disprove. It's meant to show that you have the burden of proof All right, um, and from the same individual say ifreddo sarabia At mark, where are the souls of those who existed before christ came for salvation? Is there another word aside from jesus or is purgatory not in the bible or is there a purgatory not in the bible? I'm from the protestant tradition. So we don't believe in a limbo or purgatory or in between We do believe in the state of sleep Yeah, we don't believe a statement. We don't believe a state of sleep where everybody where everybody will Even though so even though we all died the same We all died the same time when christ calls us up Calls us up at the at the at the final days He will call He will call us all and we will all rise together at the same time. So from william shakespeare to myself Myself will all rise rise at the same time intuition with their judgment So what where is that state? Where is their conscience? Well, we don't really know in particular We do we only know that there is one simply because in the confession of in the confession of faith We believe that he descended to the dead to which then the apostle peter mentions the first peter that That jesus christ had gone there to to provide the possibility of salvation for those who have yet to hear prior to his Prior to his incarnation to the world And resurrection and then when on the third day he rose then now the truth of the burden of proof of the truth For that for that possibility of salvation will be through the gospel of jesus christ, which is which is in the scriptures. Yeah, so that's the That's the pentecost. That's the protestant reflection of that I must I must disclaimer that there are at least a dozen interpretations of that very statement Uh, I'm what I do want to say that in the midst of that dozen interpretations That is not a that is not a non-negotiable mean to say that it you're believing that erratically differently, uh, we'll not let's we're not necessary Disagree or this or degrade you from christianity the real focus therefore is the person and deity of jesus christ All right, okay, awesome. Um from ronald mendaka The answer is I don't know and you don't know either but so far there's no evidence for an afterlife anyone disagree. Why? I mean I disagree in the sense that I said before life continues after People die You know what somebody's died a baby is born a little while after that that's afterlife That's that's literally the afterlife now if you want to get into like specific afterlifes in terms of Reincarnation we talked a lot about that, but you could also look at You know even individual reincarnation you could see continuity between a life that lives lived in the 1300s china to a life that was lived in 2028 america, you know, you could say that that's that pattern. I've seen that pattern again And you know, you can consider that the person being reborn or you can consider that a similar person Uh, just it just happens to be reborn that it just happened to have been born Elsewhere as far as like my philosophy, there's absolutely no different from that difference in that and there's not really a particularly good reason to think one way or the other so just think which way is most uh, You find the most utility in Mark I imagine you want to disagree as well Well, um, I think my okay, so I uh Sorry, what was going to please first? Uh, the ants so the ronald said uh, the answer is i don't know and you don't know either But so far there is no evidence for an afterlife and do you disagree and why? Well, yeah, simply because uh, I don't want I don't want to I don't seem like i'm sounding like Like a like a replay button, but for me like I said like I said earlier in the talk Uh, I would prefer there to be no afterlife because then because then the consequences would be the consequences of my life would be yolo but the evidence uh, the evidence and the testament evidence and testimony of the resurrection of jesus christ Uh compels me to say that okay, there is an afterlife And out of all the claims of the after our claims of afterlife Jesus of Nazareth seems to be the most exclusive. Um, let me just uh, uh Um screenboard from what brendan has said earlier that there's been much research to say that you know that uh, jesus was probably that was a body satva The issue that our As much as I would appreciate that and in fact here in malaysia Quite a number of sects actually add jesus's picture next to their own gods. So there's uh, yeah, so that's not So that's not uncommon But I appreciate it simply because they they do notice that there is a divine sublimity as to who jesus is But jesus himself if you read his claims I think his his words his claims alone would actually disqualify him for being a body satva Uh, like what c.s. Lewis like what c.s. Lewis would say that he cannot be regarded as a good teacher because the if you are if you Get a good teacher to repeat exactly what jesus did say you probably think that he's as crazy as a posh Claiming to be the son of god, uh, the unique, uh, the unique, uh, the only the only way to eternal life The only way to eternal life so that would end again this engage who Who buddha is and therefore and then his dead end resurrection? um would be quite Quite they will be quite a superior claim to say that not not not to say that he's superior to to other Uh, religion sentimentally, but his proof therefore in comparison to in comparison to buddhism would be uh far more Far more extreme as well. So that's why they require an extreme response to say that.  I would I try to take a more universal look at The the way jesus talked about himself um, there's also and this is interesting. Um, there's the concept of expedient means Which is big in mahayana buddhism. Are you familiar with the concept? Not entirely. I was under trevada. So expedient means. I do know expedient means is is you need the mahayana and soka gakkai Uh, so that's not just a big gakkai, but mahayana. Yeah, so it's in the lotus sutra Explicitly says it like this and tj. You'll you'll appreciate this So essentially the buddha will Basically lie to you at certain times, but he'll lie to you for your own good And the concept well here actually this was the other thing I wanted to read Um, so this is from the 16th chapter of the lotus sutra and he says Good men if there are living beings who come to me I employ my buddha eye to observe their faith and to see if their faculties are keen or dull And then depending upon how receptive they are to salvation I appear in different places and preach to them under different names and describe the length of time under which My teachings will be effective Sometimes I make my appearance as I say that I am about to enter nirvana And also employ different expedient means to preach the subtle and wonderful law thus causing living beings to awaken joyful minds Good men the thus come one observes how Among living beings there are those who delight in the little law meager and virtue and heavy in defilement For such persons I describe how in my youth I left my household and attained perfect Enlightenment but in truth the time since I attained buddha hood is extremely long as I have told you It is simply that I use this expedient means to teach and convert living beings and cause them to enter this buddha way That is why I speak in this manner Good men the scriptures expounded by the thus come one are all for the purpose of saving and emancipating living beings Sometimes I speak of myself sometimes of others Sometimes I present myself sometimes others sometimes I show my own actions and sometimes those of others All that I preach is true and not false Why do I do this the thus come one perceives the true aspect of the threefold world? Exactly as it is there is no ebb or flow of birth and death There is no existing in this world and later entering extinction It is neither substantial nor empty neither consistent nor diverse Nor it is what those who dwell in the threefold world perceive it to be All such things the thus come one sees clearly and without error Because living beings have different natures different desires different actions and different ways of thinking and making distinctions And because I want to enable them to put down good roots I employ a variety of causes and conditions similes parables and phrases and preach different doctrines This the buddha's work. I have never for a moment neglected so Yeah, so what I take from that essentially is is that the buddha will not necessarily tell you What is exactly true all the time the buddha will appear in the world for a certain time in a certain emanation And with and give a teaching the teaching is meant to apply to specific people at a specific time To tell them what they need to hear to get them closer to enlightenment and the lotus sutra. It's um Like into a father Has all of his kids are in the house and he lies to them and says there's toys just outside the house go out So that they run out of the house and the house burns down So Again like and this is from buddha scripture standpoint, but the idea is is that When you hear something in scripture, it's not always necessarily correct for you in this time and place Right. Gotcha. Well, I'm sure we all appreciate that Uh Very interesting reading again, uh learning that the buddha is a consequentialist. Um So it's a bit of a troll Jeffrey Uh says hey breton, how many times do you think that t jumps chair has reincarnated? The chair. Yeah Um, well, I would say the as many times as anything else is reincarnated. I mean, it's all the the So existence is brahma. It's all it's everything that there is being reincarnated and everything. So you hear shakespeare say You know all the world's a stage and the men and women merely players if you go by a hindu or buddhist interpretation It's not just that but we're also like the audience and the director and the rafters and the rigging and everything So, yeah, the chair reincarnates just like anything else. Hmm. It just doesn't have it just doesn't have consciousness I didn't see that coming.  That's the that's the brand. Oh, wow. Okay. I think I can get that harvey nomans here I think I like that Oh, man Say freddo sarabia again says mark one every word counted All right, says your frito sarabia. Yeah sarabia um Caleb says Brent detail some evidence for reincarnation Um, the matter cannot either be created nor destroyed you see reincarnation time and time again We die our bodies go into the earth the materials that make them break apart And then eventually they come together in life in some other form. I mean, it's the most obvious thing in the universe Gotcha. Um, from talisman oberlander Um, we had western atheism ain't no gods yee-ha Okay, um, it's very western using a cowboy yell um That that that their interpretation itself will be a bit of an oxy will be a bit of an oxymoron Yeah, I spend some time in the south It's it's it's quite god. It's like it's quite god fearing there. It's true. I don't know texan I'm not sure.   Normally, I have complete blanks. I I have a blank from when I was You know one minute old to like about four years old or so or two years old so Memory, I don't think is an important way to judge personhood or life Um, in just the same way that you know direct control over the universe Is the same as direct control of your body. I don't choose to beat my heart. My heart beats on its own I do it by myself. I don't choose to sign to shine the sun. It just does it. Isn't that awesome Uh, anything from you to jump or mark on that? I don't know. Yeah, I agree I think that it's not necessarily memory, but the biochemical processes in the brain Is what is done by neurons or is the neuron stopped and you Which are is the process of those neurons firing ends permanently Sure, but that's only because you choose to value that biochemical process in those neurons Yes, I I value consciousness and being awake and I don't want to not be awake Yeah, that's the problem because you're eventually not going to be awake. So get comfortable with that Two things I would say to this is that yes as much as uh, as much as I would agree on the Uh, the the principle of conservative or conserving energy I I do I do believe that because there is a there had been a beginning of the universe because most of them for the end And therefore the universe would definitely quite unique in itself. Uh, depending on your view of time Uh, will the universe be exactly that could the universe be exactly the same even within time or the next universe or could the next Universe be same same but different because of a linear progression of time That's another discussion I've all together But the point that I'm said the point that I'll put there for is that because there is a beginning and an end There will also be And there's a genius behind that creativity. I will look our poison the idea of Of of an author of a creator And that creator has made this uniquely mission every one of us in our interaction will be unique Every one of us and therefore that's why for me very different from uh, the buddhist Experience of a new life is that the new life is that the first our new life in christ is still My identity the same person the same person. I will still be marked time At the at the end of at the end of days, but I will by the grace of god I will be renewed because of its redemptive work on the cross and at the tomb um So in terms of memory so in terms of memory. Yes, we will be we will be held we will be held accountable because Even if we don't remember then god remembers. I know that sounds scary at times But that means that but that also poises a relationship that poises an interaction that poises a transcendent Uh a connection between what we cannot see and what we can see what we call divine and us material Awesome, okay Another question a reincarnation question stupid or energy again. Uh, do you think l ron hubbard was a reincarnated buddha? Yes, because literally everybody is a reincarnated buddha. Um every every so Nam yo ho rengi kyo means every Being possesses the buddha nature and this buddha nature can awaken within an any human within a single lifetime So yeah, l ron hubbard was a reincarnated buddha buddha. So was hitler. So was jesus. So was You know, albert einstein everybody the thing is l ron hubbard was also like Really really asleep. He was completely in the grip of the devil king of the sixth heaven of maya of a lot of illusion And you heard a lot of people which is a shame, which is why again, it's very important that Um, you know, the luta sutra be spread and that people realize What's actually going on here as opposed to getting snared by you know, uh fundamental darkness deception Decepticons forever Says silver surfer has better feats and stories than god the one I thought the weathering of the fig tree that jesus did that's pretty cool Well, okay, so the sort of problem so of course problem we're equating superheroes in general to the person that is jesus is that Is that super is that superheroes tend to be destined to the destined to the consequence and Brandon you'll be an author and writer you will know that the the protagonist is only is as good as the environment which he's in If there is no environment then the protagonist is just nobody It's just something it's just someone else the issue then that the big difference therefore between the superhero Like any super in like any protagonist in a making a main story It's that jesus in in jesus in itself even before coming into this up Is a story of his own and that is in the very nature very nature of who god is Yeah, so we look at some mysteries like even even for human souls For example when god spoke to jeremiah, he said before I formed you in the womb of your mother I knew you so therefore your consciousness your existence Before even began materialistic in this world is already first known in the mind of god and that brings a beautiful a connection a connection with us But let us not forget that it is not That unlike silver circle for example the protagonist is not dependent. It's not dependent on the scenario The scenario changes and transforms because of that because of jesus Like I like professor x that's It's pretty cool. I'm closer to him than any of you guys Can I just can we can we just jokingly? uh Just acknowledge the fact that brendan the western buddhist looks more like jesus than me I do look more like a buddhist than him Yeah That's fine, but yes, I will agree with that I got I got a tattoo on my ribs. It was stumbling around. I was a lot thinner than I am now and So I got this like yeah It's a raven carrying a pair of glasses for my dead friend And I was stumbling around on like one of the best highs of my life And the guys in the tattoo shop called me evil jesus Martin c says t jump do you agree both buddhism and christianity are essentially a happy place Are essentially happy paces responses to deal with a scary reality Essentially, yeah, most religious beliefs are grounded in the comfort of an afterlife Um Well, um, can I nuance that a little bit? I'm sorry Can I nuance that a little bit? What two things that what two things I would say is that uh, uh, I I would disagree before for me is Uh, a big a big burden, you know In the idea of an afterlife and I go against God you go against God in his ways then yeah It's it's not happy. It's not happy for me The only reason why it's happy because of the redemption is because the redemption Uh a redemption in the new life that I can have in christ jesus Uh, the second thing I would say to that also is that yes, it is Let's say for example, you take the you take you disagree or you do not believe in the reality of God Then yes, even if it is a happy place, why not? I mean Richard Dawkins himself had did mention that uh, that christmas time He would put the christmas tree hang the laurels sing some Sing the christmas carols Not because it gives them happiness for for life of the death love But it is a a happy thing that you can participate and we welcome you to it Yeah, what I'll say about this is there's a certain type of person and certain type of idea That something is real in as much as it hurts And I think this actually comes from the fact that we don't really get a sense of ourselves Until we are in conflict and you even see it with like SNM stuff and by the way, I'm not kink shaming SNM super fun But like you know and it can be fun to to feel the pain and to Like even if you've got a masseuse working on your back sometimes you want to tighten up And just just feel that pain so that you can then later on release it But I don't think that just because something is painful or depressing that that makes it true And I think there's actually kind of a dangerous route of self-harm That I do see a lot of western atheists go down because they get this very toxic masculinity I'm a guy.  It's it's just there's nobody in here but us Even the lion king would agree Yeah, yeah, when Mufasa shared December that you know, we all partly connected a great circle of life Uh, if you if you want to go if you want to go from there and if you want to go from there and go I will go from the perspective unfortunate circumstance of reincarnating into clouds. I don't know if that would prefer that Yeah, oh my god guys if you ever get a chance to see lion king on Broadway one make sure you're sober, uh, but two It the the creation of Mufasa that they do in like the julie tamer is freaking insane Like the theater effect that they do it is one of the most impressive things Like if I had been on certain substances and gone into that I might have come out believing that lion the lion was god Okay, all right, so that's one that's one of the bucket list of the mco Um go to new york see lion king Yeah Oh, okay. Yeah, I think we can end there and go to next question. Sure Awesome. Uh, so last question uh for today from kalub again. James your eyebrow will reincarnate. I promise so We'll send our thoughts and prayers after james Not if I have anything to say about it. Oh gosh. Is that a thread or a promise? Promise Well, I'd like to thank all the speakers for being here today. It was a great chat. I really enjoyed moderating it I like to apologize for tech issues. It's my first stream by myself doing all this at the same time Uh, yeah, so thank you guys if you guys want to say anything. Um, if not Well, we'll be out of here Yeah, thanks for having me on I appreciate it. Thanks for brinton and mark for coming in and talking I appreciate listening to your reappoints. I appreciate the quotes. I really like the quotes from the buddhist Documents I thought those are really pretty. I definitely like Matt mark that was I really love your balcony like looking out your window. That is that is a really cool view. I really appreciate Yeah, uh, just to get just to get people to know what I'm talking about. What is what you guys are talking about? So the interesting thing about malaysia is that You get religion right at the doorstep. So there's a buddhist temple. There's a hindu temple down there You know, so yeah And in that and in that aspect, I would like to thank each and every one of you I was actually a little bit, uh worried because Um, I am familiar with western exertion you know But uh, I but now I've I've I've found it to be actually very comforting to be able to exchange information one after to one another uh to be able to Share what we truly believe in the heart and yet at the same time we can still come to a to a court come to a Courtial relationship. I want this relationship. So Tom as soon as the mc as soon as this Restriction orders are lifted. I am looking forward to bring to help you in malaysia and brenton. Please come along I would love to that sounds great. Um, yeah Yeah, um, you what I'll just say is you know, you guys This was probably the best debate I've had on this channel to tell you the truth You guys both really knew your stuff. You went into it. You weren't nazis Um, and um high bar there. I don't know. Yeah And um, yeah, so I I had a blast here if people want to check me out I'm the author of snow white zombie apocalypse I have a novel coming out that I've done in collaboration with a band called the crew shadows Where the main it begins when the main character dies And uh, yeah, just look me up at brentonlengel.com and please if you can subscribe to my youtube channel I'm trying to get a thousand subscribers and I've been growing pretty steadily. So check it out. You'll hear more philosophy and art stuff there and Yeah, wonderful. I had a blast. Please. Uh, both of you guys friend me on facebook if you can All right Good comic, by the way, loved it. Yeah Yeah To do you have a copy? Uh, no, I was only able to find bits and pieces here and there to and then come to store together If you friend me, I'll send you a pdf Right now I'm the author it's not policy For a signed copy, uh, I can get you one of those for um For the first and second issue. I'll get them both signed, uh, 25 dollars plus shipping and handling Yeah, you want to put it if you pay pal that to me because I just closed a successful kickstarter I've got extra copies coming around Yeah, so you're in the u.s. Right? Yep. It's 27 bucks Cool I'll send you a message on facebook Yeah, send me a message Well, thank you everybody for coming in. We keep starting at the reasonable from the unreasonable