So if there are folks here that haven't, there's a sign-in sheet on the little lectern by the door. If folks haven't signed that, please just put your name and information on there for us. Helps with the minutes so we know who's here. Yeah, would you just throw my name on it and report it? I mean, like we will show it here. Start the recording. Sure. Recording in progress. All right, I'll call the January 10th, 2024 city council meeting to order. Do we have any agenda additions or changes? I do not have it. I assume that the that an update about the repercussions of the storm last night will probably come toward your comments. I'm wondering if we can get that maybe at the beginning about what has happened in the city since last night's storm. That be possible. Is that okay? I don't see any reason we couldn't do that in public to be heard. I think we need to have the agenda for that. Right. Anybody? All right. Without any additions or changes. Move on to public to be heard. A little while ago, a few weeks ago, the council adopted a slightly modified meeting policy, which. Includes the change that well in the past, we'd have public to be heard, which is a time for folks to address the council or bring comments or questions. And we asked those comments to be on items that weren't on the agenda agenda for the night. Thinking that items that were on the agenda, we would talk to you about them at that time. We've tweaked the policy a little bit so to make it easier for people to attend the meetings and then leaves. They don't have to wait for a couple hours for the topic to come up. That's all to say that if anyone has anything they'd like to share with the council or any comments or questions, either in person or online. Now is the time to do that. For each item we talk about tonight, there will be time for public comment as well. If you'd rather wait. So I don't see anybody in the room. I don't see anybody online. Not seeing any hands being raised initially doing a few seconds. Craig, Craig, if you Craig could share your last name with us and then. Let us know what you're thinking. Sure. My last name is wire, and I live on tap street. I know I've attended many meetings. I'm not someone who usually attends meetings, but I want to make it concise into the point. I'm aware that I brought up to the city council, the decision to stop and toll fines for the livestock at eight tap street. But I want the city council to know that that's not reciprocal. More livestock has been added structures have been built with that regard to the city ordinances. And I would like the city to address that. And then I just want to say something short. That's an overview of this whole situation. This absurd situation that exists today over 50 livestock being present at eight half street is the result of the city council's lack of action over a year ago. When there was a dozen livestock. When the city council was made aware of this. The city chose to look at this as a micro problem by not addressing it and spending a year's time to look into it. This has led to a macro level situation costing the taxpayers money and time with the lawsuit. And costing the residents of tap street and jury drive their quality of life and realistic balance. Quite succinctly if someone had 12 dogs in this situation or farms or goats or elephants in the city to be here to address it. Thinking it's a micro problem it developed into a macro problem. And it affects me every day because I have to listen to the over 50 livestock. So I think this is a any organization needs to address a micro level problem before it becomes a macro level problem. Which is what we have before us today. The you gave time and the individual or the eight half street has then registered itself as a farm. Now you find yourself in the news and it just became a macro problem. So any organization must address issues at a micro level before it becomes a macro one. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. So anyone else online when not seeing any other hands up. All right, seeing no one else will move on to. You want me to just talk about the store. Sure. Sorry. Yep. So we had a number of trees down throughout the city and some cleanup work on the public work side. Nothing too crazy as far as I understand on Harlan side of the world. We had roof damage at the library and estimated to be about $60,000 worth of damage and damage on the rec climbing net estimated to be about $50,000. We are working on getting those claims into our insurance and hopefully that will work out. We have a temporary there being made tomorrow on the library. Is there any water infiltration? Not that I can tell unfortunately that particular roof the way they built it to the wall and I can't access the inside of it. I tried to look with a light that I think I can't tell at the moment. Okay. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed and we'll do a little more exploratory as we get into it. But we're going to be faced with a car repair on that roof or sometime until we're able to be able to weather be able to do an actual repair and or hopefully replay. But I think it's time to stop playing with that piece of it. I just get a replacement and enough of it came off that I don't see it making sense to repair it that that piece of it should be replaced. So I'll work with the insurance company to roll you over. Good question on that. Sure. Was it ever so possible to be the part of the roof that needs to be replaced anyway? Yes. Well, maybe insurance will help with that. Okay. Anybody else? No. Thank you. All right. We'll move on to 5a discussion with HR director Colleen Dwyer. If you want to come up to the table, either way, either way, either way. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me. I'm not really completely sure how, how this kind of goes, but I'll just follow the sheet that I have. Unless you guys have questions. We'll probably have questions. If you can kind of give us, we've probably read this, I'm sure. Okay. So you can give us an overview. Sure. So the first part of this is looking back on the past six months and just wanted to acknowledge the personal growth that I've had as an HR director here. This is, this realm of HR is new to me and it definitely has pushed me to grow professionally and it's challenged me mentally every day. So that's one thing I wanted to acknowledge. And then, you know, I think when I got here, it was as a result of the separation and there is some complexity around being considered a new city. When I am looking for old documents to inform the new city and so it gets kind of tricky and having to navigate what it means to be new when it's not necessarily really new. Does that make sense? I don't know who I'm talking to.  Us. Okay. So there's that. I also wanted to acknowledge a stable workforce. I think EJRP is a challenge to find long-term employees, not because of EJRP, but because of the childcare crisis that we're experiencing, not only in Vermont, but in the U.S. And the people who have left EJRP recently, it's never because of their work environment. I could say that definitely the last three people that left built some connections with staff there and probably the last three people that left built some connections with staff there. And probably will remain friends, but moved into positions that are more in line with the degree or the experience that they had. We just not too long ago did open enrollment for our health insurance and I hope that to be I'm proud of the benefits that we have for our staff. It's really an indication of providing quality, affordable health care that our staff deserves. And then not too long ago, just really connecting with Champlain Medical Urgent Care to do flu clinics for our staff. They make sure that our public works folks, EJRP, EJRP, EJRP, EJRP, EJRP, EJRP, public works folks, EJRP, and wastewater are vaccinated. So that's been a nice, easy collaboration with them. I can pick up the phone and say, somebody got hurt. I'm going to give an appointment. They just send them, I sent them right in. It's pretty, I think they're treated pretty well when they go there. In terms of like looking ahead and looking forward to be having contract negotiations completed and hoping for that to be done in a, what I think has so far been a positive atmosphere and the end goal is to hope that we can get this done that demonstrates both sides of respect and understanding from where we're coming from. Trying to be really intentional about that. And really giving staff more tools via training, whether it's de-escalation training, management training about performance management, CPR training, things like that, just to give staff the things that they need to be successful. And I just want to like really acknowledge the staff here. All the services and resources that are provided in this community are powered by humans. And I think we are lucky that we have dedicated, hardworking, honest, bright, committed people who really make this community vibrant. And without them, you wouldn't be able to access like a beautiful park like Maple Street that people from outside of Essex Junction access or like clean streams or just having a safe place to go to the library. The fire department taking care of your life. And there's like all this invisible work that's also done in this building by staff who do it with dignity and integrity. And I just feel like I want to acknowledge them because without them, this city would look very different. Great. We agree. Yeah. Anyone have any questions for Colleen? Hi. Can I ask you to talk about two things? One, you made the comment about the people who've left sounds like that, impacting the most, especially our kids programs, early childhood education programs. That being said, not necessarily early childhood education. That staff has been incredibly stable. It's the after school child after school programs. I mean, that's the preschool not having turnover really speaks to Christina and all of the staff there that create an environment that people want to stay. So how do you see us at this year then moving, moving forward trying to maintain these services for an important and vulnerable parts of part of our population? Yeah. How do you see us being able to do that? How do you think that there's some real red flags here that we need to, some other things that we need to do or consider as we think about again, because we're looking at the budget, we're talking about the programs. How should we, what lens should we look through this in order to determine whether or not we can sustain these programs? Sure. I mean, it's really, I get, again, go back to the people who are doing this work and really making sure that we are providing a good work-life balance, which I think they already do, providing competitive rates for positions, providing quality benefits. And I think it's a bigger problem to solve with the child care crisis. I don't have the answers to that. I don't know, but I do know it's like making sure that we put our people first. How do you, from the point of view of somebody who's looking for an opportunity and looking to the city at maybe being an opportunity for them in a career, what would you say to them are the things that make working in this city attractive? For EJRP particularly or for in general? Generally speaking. You know, I think that there's a lot of opportunity to learn, to grow. We do have, right now we have excellent benefits. It's a environment in which people are welcomed and respected. I don't think any system, whether it's a family system, a workplace is perfect. Everything is flawed, so for some people this doesn't work. But I'm not trying to say everything is ideal here. But I think people take pride in their work and I think that can be infectious. I think getting thank yous and acknowledgments can go a long way for people, especially coming from city council, coming from residents appreciating the things that they do. I know that nothing is perfect. There are things that people don't know what staff has done behind the scenes, but everybody is really trying their best here. And that's a nice place to be because when you come here, I never felt like people don't want to be here. Thank you. I always felt that our staff was absolutely fantastic. And even though we have rebuilt our staff, we went down to very few people in Lincoln Hall. And now we have a brand new staff, which how many cities get to do that? Right. And we have been really fortunate. We have a wonderful staff. And we're lucky for the folks that have been here, pre-merger, I don't know what the right term is. Pre-separation. Their knowledge and wealth of information and the support they have given the newer staff has been really invaluable. I don't have any questions. I just have a lot of appreciation for all the work. You and a lot of other folks have done to get us to this point and handle the transition, both as being a new employee and managing all of that. I know it's very complex. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That it. That is it. You're done. Thank you. See you soon. Do we want to open the department that we want? Okay. I think it's gone. My apologies for not asking. I didn't occur to me to do that, but we couldn't in the future. We can move on to five B, which are interviews and appointments for bike walk and the community advisory board. Why don't we start with bike walk. Two candidates here in person and one on zoom. Why don't we start on zoom with Sarah. If you're ready, Sarah. It's okay with that. Hi. Thanks for joining us. I'm just going to get to your application. Great. So again, thanks for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about your. We have what you've written here, maybe just a. In a nutshell of what you were hoping to accomplish your reasons for wanting to participate in the bike walk committee. Yeah. Well, you know, as you know, we recently moved to S extension and I'm kind of eager to be a bit more engaged in the community in some way. And I felt like this was one way maybe I can contribute. Because I'm having a city that's walkable and very accessible for pedestrians or on bikes is something that's very highly valued by our family. And we moved here from a community, which was very like lots of people out and about walking and biking. To various places and, you know, you, you got to know people and see people and it just felt like a very welcoming environment. And that was one reason that we chose us like junction just because there is sort of a little, a little city of some sort and we could walk to the library and things like that. So, I think that just kind of being aware of. What the current challenges are for S extension coming in as an outsider would be learning some of that and, and just hoping to contribute in some way with ideas or just making progress happen, I guess. That's great. I mean you so you came from a place that was pretty well set up in this regard. You've been here a little while what right off the bat have you made any observations that we might benefit from any anything that that you've experienced where you live before that you'd like to see considered here. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, it's a little hard to sort of make big changes. I think one thing that kind of drew people and families out was just the number of playgrounds that were around and walk and within walking distance. And so, any way to add more spaces or green spaces where families can hang out, I think would be great. I again, I don't know too much about what available spaces there might be as being a newcomer but that was one thing that I think really brought families out and people met each other and stayed friends. And we already have a lot of great local businesses here and it would be, you know, great to see people really walking to these places.  And that was kind of unique and so that also drew a lot of people because it was like a wide, you know, path was sort of dirt pebbles and people could walk their dogs and that kind of thing. But again, it's it's hard to know kind of how to fit that into what's going on here but take some creative thinking but those are just I guess some things that that I observed living in that neighborhood. Great. Thank you. Anyone have any questions for you asked questions. Thank you. Amber. This is kind of a question we typically ask if there's two positions and three applicants would you if you're for some reason not selected for this would you consider participating in another committee. We have openings on a number of different. We have a number of different opportunities that are available. Yeah, sure. Like I said, I was hoping to sort of become a little more engaged now that I live here. And this one sparked my interest, but certainly would would consider other options too. Great. Well, thank you very much for joining us. We will probably get back to you with the next day or so. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm going to start off with a question about this. I think as a group after the, as part of the meeting later on. And you'll be hearing from whatever staff. Okay. Great. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Let's see. How about. Sorry, scrolling, scrolling. Michael. And because I have a name that often is. Yeah. Yeah. We've got it. Thanks. Hello, and thanks for having me, everybody. And thanks to the public for being here as well and participate in city council. So I was interested in this council in particular. Urban design and specifically sustainable urban design has been a huge personal passion of mine recently. And in addition to my goals of being more engaged with, with my city and my community was hoping to use this committee as a way to work with others that have more experience in urban planning to use a springboard to potentially look at a different career path down the road looking at master's programs in urban planning. And I think this would be a great way to get off the ground to kind of get some experience, see how others work together on solving problems as it comes to biking and walking. It's a really exciting time for the fields.  I come from Michigan from a part of the Midwest where I'd say walking and biking infrastructure is pretty lacking and so it was pretty sad to see that and so to move to s extension it's been really exciting for me to see what I see is a huge opportunity to build a network of walkable and bikeable communities we've got relatively dense housing for month we've got relatively dense areas that people want to get to whether shopping centers or parks or playgrounds. So I think that's a perfect opportunity to look at how people get from place to place and go from there. On top of that I'm excited to see other urbanists become interested in not just changing car infrastructure but maybe reframing it, especially being, you know, obviously built around five corners. I have no grand delusions that we're taking cars off the street but to think more holistically about how we can get people from place to place regardless of financial status mobility, any other issues and again thinking about maybe kids wanting to get to school by bike more often and make that safer for them as well. So those were my primary interests in applying to this committee. Sounds great. Anyone. I'll ask the same question as Sarah mentioned recently arriving from somewhere else I mean, well actually you you described it differently as their structure was bad but still pose the same question you see any. Any ideas of immediate improvements or or things that now that you're living here could be improved anything that you'd like to address right off the bat. Sure. I think sitting in on the bike walk advisory council a couple months ago a member of the public pointed out Pearl Street as a place for opportunity when it comes to cyclists in particular. And I'll echo that being someone who spends off days running errands on my bike. I find the sidewalk is the safest spot as a cyclist and that definitely again communicated to me that there's an opportunity to look more holistically, especially the second section across from, you know, the shopping centers over there, those are places where people who want to get by bike so reframe it is in the same way looking at my hometown. They're putting in more protected bike lanes. So, again, thinking about how we can make things safer for everybody is my primary interest. Excellent. Well, I'll say the same thing I said a few minutes ago, we have one more person interview and we'll be talking about this later on this evening so we'll we'll be getting back to you with the next day or so. Thanks for. Oh, sorry. Interest in other committees. Oh, right. Sorry. And if you were not selected. Would you be interested in joining us in another way. There are some similar opportunities and other committees that might interest you in the same way. Sure. I'll be perfectly honest and say that based on my professional goals of looking at sustainable urban planning ahead of my site set on this council in particular. Okay, but appreciate the offer as well. All right, great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Good evening everybody joining us as everyone doing good. Good. So I've applied to this committee for a lot of the same similar reasons as the other folks who are applying. I love walking this beautiful community observing the historic architecture, sharing that with my children. We recently moved here about a year and a half ago. So I have that also in common with the the other applicants. And as a relatively new city, there's just a lot of potential in kind of building up this downtown area and making it all the more accessible as a destination location. Not just for the folks living in the in the city, but also to those outward who we certainly want to share this community with with the introduction of more restaurants and grocery to this location. I think it's all the more important that we look at this from a lens of equity as well. There are folks who walk recreationally and bike recreationally and then the others who do out of necessity. So that's another angle that I would certainly bring consideration to on the committee. As a parent of young children who is always making my way around the city, walking when possible, I would love to just see the future and the changes that we can make now at the forefront of all the decisions made by the committee. Or by the advisory group. And I see linking parks as a linking parks throughout the city as an ongoing project that I see a lot of potential in. And yeah, I just see this as my also into civic engagement in my new city. Great. I would just curious one of the things that I want to questions that could potentially be asking some of the applicants that they've been part of the planning commission for the. What's new planning and what's strategic planning process that they're aware of it involved in it. Okay, thanks. That's a good point. I was going to ask you a similar question that I asked others your recent arrival, anything that you'd that you've noticed right off the bat that sort of sticks in your mind that is. Well, we are at five corners. It's right out the window here, which is intimidating for a lot of folks who are attempting alternate transportation. And so I think planning events specifically around making the downtown region a little bit more accessible, I think is going to open the door to people having a mindset that the the infrastructure exists currently. And the door is open for those who are willing to brave what might seem to be an intimidating thing so walking tours, bike aspect to parades and community events. These are the kind of things that I see as an invitation to further engagement. Excellent. Anyone have any questions for john. Are you open to other opportunities. As stated, this is kind of my interest. My interest is in this community committee specifically but as I am looking to get more engaged civically with community I'm open. Okay. As I mentioned the other folks, you'll be hearing from us in the next day or so. And as Harlan pointed out, to all of you and Sarah if you're still on the line doesn't quite get that sorry on the 27th. In the morning there's an opportunity and in the afternoon there's an opportunity this information is our website at the fairgrounds, the blue pavilion building, there will be. We'll be calling it. Sorry, open house, excuse me. There's an opportunity to kind of learn what's been talked about in the strategic planning process that we have and get an offer feedback in the middle of the day there's a community meal will be well where we will be talking about and holding a public hearing on. What we have so far for proposed budget for next year, which will include some of the topics that you're interested in, but so there's an opportunity to participate in the morning or afternoon they're the same. And then in the middle of the day is community meal and budget presentation so everybody here is welcome. We hope you all attended expect to see every one of you. But thank you for joining us. Thank you. All right. And for the police community advisory board Susan French would mind coming up. Thank you for joining us. Sure. You'd like to tell us a little bit about yourself why your interest in the in this committee. And what your thoughts on that. Sure. So I have lived in the junction for about six years. Prior to that I was in Burlington, since I was a little kid. So I have, I feel like a good history of the community that I'm in now and and the broader Chittenden County community. I, my background is I, I'm on hiatus at the moment I'm not ready to say it's really retirement but I don't know what I want to do with my life. So but I'm a chief people officer by trade. And so I have a lot of experience and training with inclusivity and diversity and equity as it relates to the workplace. And in my personal life, I have three adult children. One is a child of color and we have some really difficult conversations around how she feels or doesn't feel safe in Vermont. And then my youngest child graduated with a bachelor's degree in criminal justice and is now afraid to join the police force because of the environment that is at play today. I have always found the community that I was raised in and the community that I've recently been living in to feel very safe from my place and perspective. And I feel like it's an opportunity for me to get engaged and strengthen the relationship between community and police. Not that it's one of weakness, but I think there's always an opportunity for greater collaboration and communication. And so it's an area that I am passionate about and I feel like my background and expertise would lend itself. This has been running now I want to say for, I'm going to get this wrong probably, but I think it's about four months. Maybe five. Do you have any concerns about jumping in? I do not. Okay. We appreciate you coming forward and to fill this open seat be considered for that. Have you followed up?  I've done some surfing on the internet and actually I was it reinforced my thinking which was. I looked at police logs and I had not done that and records of. Arrest and I know in my mind, those numbers were going to be larger than they were. And so I was pleasantly surprised and then that took me down a path of. Sharing data with the community that reinforces the great work that's being done and maybe quell some anxiety and just. Opportunities there may be for that. Again, I feel like I could leverage my background in support of that kind of work. Anyone have any questions? Sure. I'm just curious if you in thinking about joining this committee. Are there, is there one or two ideas that you would like to see. The committee do like what is your vision of what you would accomplish on the committee? Right. Well, I've learned that it would be premature premature of me to throw out one or two ideas now until I sort of had a better understanding of. What goals they have set to date and what their accomplishments have been. In my feeling, you know, as I come forward in my thoughts about joining such a committee. It is to strengthen my understanding and my perspective of. The community and how it's functioning with the police department and it's to. Take that knowledge back out through my networks and through my community to reinforce. Positive aspects of the work that is being done. But not to be naive to the opportunities that exist. And so. When I think about the work for that committee, I really think it comes down to communication and transparency. And, and driving both of those things forward for greater awareness within the community of the work that's being done. I want to go back to something you said, and I really appreciate the fact that you're an engaged parent and having those difficult conversations with your children. And I totally want to acknowledge the fact that the national conversation is relevant and one that we need to have. I'm curious about in your conversations or in your thinking about this committee when you look at what's happening here locally with the Essex police department. Do you believe that the national conversation is. Relevant. Do you believe that the Essex police department is. It's on the right side or wrong side. Where do you see the direction right now from your point of view as a resident, as well as a parent, how do you see the Essex police department and then. Yeah, so I'll answer the first one because I think that's the easier of the two and as a resident I have nothing but kudos for my experiences in the last six years. And I think that they're present when when necessary. I think that they are reassurance. I think that they are. They appear to be. Focused, you know, I've seen things I have not participated. I've seen things where you can go and have coffee with the police chief right and I have seen things in the paper. And online that suggests that they're looking to engage with the community and I think that that all bodes well. And so my experiences have only been positive. The second part. I do not perceive that we have problems at the national scale level. However, I am a. Educated white woman of privilege and so I'm not going to make that assessment without really understanding more and that's part of my journey is wanting to understand more about how our police. Work within our community what advocacy exists what opportunities exist. Those conversations for me and my child who is 25 and a black female is. She's still scared to be pulled over. Because has she ever had an issue. No. But the reality is, every time a highly publicized case happens throughout the country in different parts, it triggers a lot of emotion and a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety. And I do my best to have an adult conversation and appreciate and understand that her perspective is different from mine. But I'd like to do more. I'd like to understand more and have more educated conversations with not only my children, but the community on the ways in which our police organization has safeguarded against those biases and and the fact that it's front of mind. Thank you. Do you feel that you're able to based on you've said a few times that. Well, this is I'm answering asking this question because of how you've answered a couple of others. Do you feel like you could turn around and. Call out sx police the sx police department. If you see them operating in a way that you question that is also part of their mission. It's absolutely. Yeah. And again, my. Professional background. I am able to be direct and not going to use the word confrontational, but I will not shy away from a challenge. And so if, if there is issues that warrant further being addressed. And even if they are icky and maybe they don't feel so great. I will definitely be there to be a part of that conversation and work through it. Great. Anybody else. Am I an applicant of one for a position of one. You are. Okay. I'll tell you that I'll help out elsewhere, but I didn't know. I didn't want to steal your thunder ahead of yourself. I didn't want to steal your thunder. And you heard that you heard the strategic planning part. So that's nice to know if you're willing to. Yeah. If you're willing to double up also, we're also open to that for the community, many of us. But thank you. We'll be in touch soon. All right. Sounds good. Appreciate you coming. Nice to meet you. Thank you. Okay. That is it. So we'll move on to five C discussion and consideration of adoption of Vermont alert as a public notification system. So sorry, let me just get to this memo. There it is after the other thing. Okay. Sorry. Okay. So BT alert system. It is a system that individuals can sign up for on their own to get alerts about various emergencies. The system has been in place for quite a while at the state level. And it's just a really great way and an additional way that the city can communicate out any issues or emergency alerts that we may want to get out to the public. Police chief Ron Hogue is here. Actually, I think he might have been here for the other thing if he has anything he wants to add, but essentially he is suggesting that both the town and the city make use of this. BT alert system. I think is also fantastic idea for us to do this. And there is no cost outside of the training and the programming and getting folks set up essentially what this would look like is the police department would use this. Ricky public works would also be trained up to use it. Ashley also on our staff would be trained to use it as well. And myself. Great. Chief. Chief. I would like the students and fire department to be a part of that as well. We put out a number of public notices. Right now we use Facebook and Twitter. So, I think it should be included as well. I'm not a I don't know how it normally operates so I'm going to ask if that's a possibility how that works is that. I'm sure. Okay, yeah, just it's not in the. It's a lengthy list, but I'm not sure if it's so I just want to make sure that it's not. Okay. All right. Chief, did you have anything you wanted to add? No, I don't have a problem having the fire chief in there that might have been an oversight on Rick Gary's part when he was making the initial list just for your memo. That's certainly appropriate and in the town, we will have the town fire chief. So, yeah, we'll make sure the city once signed on to this can can add any user that they choose to to put in there so. And I apologize. It is in the list in the second, the very second section. No, in terms of permitted uses. Fire structure fire vehicle fire, wildfire, all and so on. So, yes. I have a, you know, on the. Examples of organizational group notifications to it. It sounds like this can be used. Internal to an organization as well. Yes. Yes, that is correct. It can be used for notifications of employees for, you know, scheduling things, things like that. If there was a sudden callback of all the employees had to come in for something that's one of the functions that we plan on using it for with the police department is if we had to get every every employee of the police department to come back into work for for something going on. But this would give us a way to be able to notify everyone quickly. So it can you can make a list in there. For instance, the city council. So that way, the city manager can can send a notification just to the city council that they choose to. Okay. Any questions for anyone. Amber, I can't see you. Now I can see nothing. Okay. I'm glad we're going to subscribe to this Chittin County one and it's great. So glad we're going to do this. Yeah. That was when you notice that we get to that. And that the word is about depending storm. Yeah. The only reason I asked is because I voted that over chop services. We plan for that when it's storm. Obviously part of that a lot of trees in it. So they make sure that they didn't have to keep the kids out into the park area when the wind was coming in. And the other things that you talked to know, the kids and are extremely helpful for all of our programs and all of our departments. So, we plan accordingly if everybody sees some. And residents opt into this, or anybody that wants to receive them this ops in and I'm assuming that that personal information that's provided as part of that the cell phone of that would have all of that is kept confidential and not air mixed with other government databases and uses. I believe that's part of the part of the MOU that's signed in the state. The state VEM is the one is the organization that manages the actual system for the whole state. So they would be the keeper of the information and I don't. I don't believe that we as individual users or even as the city would have had would have access to that but but I don't know that for sure but that certainly something will will ask them about while we're doing the training. And I'm sure there's a privacy policy for people when they sign up that they can review. So, I believe so. Okay. All right. Well, there's no other questions or comments for Jean. Do you have anything else you wanted to add for that. I do know, except for that this piece of paper needs. Okay. You're going to need to remind us a few more times. There is a motion. No, recommendation. You want to comment first. Did you want to do public comment? Oh, thank you. I feel like we did, but yes. Is there anyone in the room or online that would like to comment on this topic? I don't see anyone in the room. Give a second for folks online if they have anything they want to add to this discussion. And I don't see anybody and I don't I see a recommendation not a motion. So we can turn that recommendation upside down. I'll go ahead and move that the city council approved the use of VT alert system for the city of S extension and authorized city council president to sign the attached them with you. Second. Great discussion. All those in favor say aye. Aye. All those opposed nay motion passes. Great. Doing it now. Before we forget. Thank you. 5D when you ski valley park district presentation discussion George is that why you're here? I think. Okay. Okay, great. All right. Yes. Oh, I didn't see that. Okay. I will. Hi, I don't know how to make my image come up. Can you guys see me there? Nope. It's your name. There you go. Thank you. And Lauren, she Cody is here as well. She's our operations manager on the executive director when you ski valley park district. We each year like to visit our member communities of which we have eight and you're the newest one. And as you know, George, Tyler's is your trustee serves on the board of trustees that meets monthly. So he's very much wired into our operations. And if it's okay, I'll give you a quick 5 minute. Overview I believe to have all the materials that they're going over with the report. So I won't be labor you with with a whole lot of. Details straight off of that, but some some important points for this year. Just a quick overview. We've been existence since 1972. We just celebrated 50 years. A year late because of COVID, but we had a very nice celebration. We have 3 full time staff on the executive director Lawrence operations manager and we also have Tim learn it was our park superintendent. I came on board with the distinct distinct privilege of having these 2 people already working here. Lauren has been here, I believe for 13 years and Tim for 22. So there's a lot of experience there. We also have usually 2 or 3 summer seasonals that work for us. We're highly capable and a huge part of our model is leveraging hundreds of hours of volunteer time each year to conduct a whole broad variety of things in our parks. We are growing incrementally over time. And mode that the park closest to you that would have an impact is right across the river at right next right across from global foundries. It's called the Jacob property. It's a 29 acre park and we're working with the town of Williston on converting that into a park district assets. I tell my dog to start barking, but I guess great timing. This year has been challenging to us in terms of the flood events. But it also taught us quite a bit about the level of resilience that our system has built into it and also the importance of the flood plain and shoreline and wetland properties that we manage in the overall scheme of things in terms of both achieving better ecosystem health and also, you know, the whole broader issue around climate change and flood resilience. So, it's interesting how our mission has evolved as it was originally formed really as a buffer against the fears in the 1970s and for my being completely overwhelmed by development and really has morphed from that aesthetic recreational priority into a much more focused ecological imperative that we're that sounds grandiose, but that our board is really quite aware that we have a responsibility that we're trying to carry out. So, it provides a partnership of towns that can very efficiently acquire and directly manage permanently conserved lands all of our properties have some form of legal protection on them that make sure that they stay in conservation for perpetuity. So, this year, we are doing some significant capital upgrades. We, one of our parks is Ethan Allen homestead. We've got a couple historic buildings there we got a couple grants to work on those buildings. One of our projects will be historic buildings at the at the Colchester pond property but we're also going to be repairing a wetlands walk and we have a lot of trail projects going on and all of these major capital projects we leverage funds through the Water Conservation Fund, my housing conservation board, Lake Champs Lane Basin program so a big part of our model is leveraging funds to do major capital projects and acquisitions, and this system works quite well. Vermont is unique in that it does not have strong county government or funding and if you look at nationwide most organizations like ours are funded through sort of very quiet taxes. We have a we feel we have a stronger model but it also depends on the towns to provide funding for operations. We've made a strategic decision that has been building up over the last few years to go after outside operational funds to help supplement our budget. So if you notice there is a $20,000 placeholder in our budget for next fiscal year. And I, the board has tasked me formally to go out and raise that money we already have one grant application out and we're also going to be working with Vermont League of Cities and towns, which we are a member because we are regional municipality. I'm going to be speaking to them about approaching the legislature for some form of funding that could carry us into the future. It's a bit of a long shot but we feel I've been doing this for 10 years and I feel like as the imperative for our work grows and the, the costs of our operations creep up that having some other form of funding would be extremely helpful. So that is, that is a big imperative for us right now. Another one is keeping our, our costs contained this year we managed to ask for a 3% increase in our asks from our member towns while our overall budget is growing by 6.4%. Well, it's a combination of things. First of all, we are very entrepreneurial with, we do contracted work for various towns, which is very simple models easy contract, but it's, it's outs for properties that are not owned by us we get paid for that. Another one is we do quite a bit of leasing we've got a preschool release to two different museum cultural organizations. A couple of farmers and we have some nonprofits that we work with. So, we are constantly looking for opportunities to increase revenues over time to help take the financial load off our member towns. That being said, even though I'm a biased person here I do feel that for the investment and our overall operating budget. The product that we deliver is pretty significant and I feel like we do a really good job of managing our properties. You own a portion of Woodside Park congratulations. It's split between the town and the junction that park was hit hardest by the flood in terms of depth of water we had 9 or 10 feet of water. Down there and then we got a second flood with a very similar amount although nowhere near as high as the 1st time. And we were able to essentially with elbow grease and not a whole lot of money put things back together again. And each time we do that we learn a little more about how you contain a floating bridge and how you, you know, how you make things flood resilient. But, and we'll get insurance for, for the major bridges and walkways, but the overall cost to cure everything in our park system was less than $30,000 post flood. So, and we learned it's just a constant iterative process of learning how you manage these lands. It's clear that our priorities are changing. But the overall system as it's built and how we are structured and doing right now is quite sound. We carry no debt whatsoever. We have monthly credit card fees, but we do not which we pay off each each month, but we do not take out loans for our vehicles or for our properties. We have really strong strategic partnerships with a number of organizations. And those the, the combination of those 2 things staying efficient staying tight and small having strong monthly input from the member towns is what keeps us sustained. And over this next year we've got a couple of properties that we're looking to do an acquisition on our capital projects and of course, securing additional outside revenues. So I jumped around a little bit on that, but is there any, any questions at this point? I do not have anybody. I want to bring up something that brought me some concern. This is only to understand the structure of your of the funding model ask that you're put for all the communities. Yes. One of the things that brought me some concern is again, as I look at this particular ask and you're looking at it from a population standpoint and breaking down, you know, our participation, the fee for our participation in this. The community voted overwhelming to, to be a part of this, this district, but looking at the amount of land that is within as extension that the district takes care of. Brings me a little bit of concern for level of participation financially versus the amount of land we're covering in your whole district.  So I just want to at least acknowledge the fact that brings me some concern. And I will leave it at that if, if you want to comment or address that concern, feel free, but just one of the things that I was thinking about as I was going through and reviewing this. Sure. I appreciate it. And just to modify things a little bit. We also take into account the equalize grand list. And Mike, and we, in the formula, is that 100% progressive? No, is it more progressive than just giving it up eight ways? Yes. We did have a very intense look at our financial model about six years ago. We hired a consultant. We did a lot of runs on how it would look if we did things on, you know, if we had the amount of acreage of land in each community as part of the formula and it just blew the whole model out of the water. So I don't have a perfect answer for it, but I can tell you that if my board chair was here, he's been here a lot longer. And she would remind me, she constantly reminds me everyone has access to these parts. There is no fees charged. The whole philosophy is that the ecological values of properties cannot be defined by municipal borders or property lines. So when we evaluate the acquisition of piece of property, the main factors are the importance to conservation, habitat protection, flood resilience, etc. And then having a board of eight representing all those communities jointly deciding whether we acquire that property and manage that property over time and then approving each operating budget. The model is strong. I, in terms of how we fund it, I, I, I, I'm not sure how much more progressive we could get in terms of how we structure this but one thing I will say is I feel strongly that there needs to be another funding stream that comes into our organization to support the work we're doing because the work we're doing has regional impact. Along with all the other incredibly active and strong conservation organizations that acquire and manage land. What's different from us is you get to tell us what to do.  And to me, there's a huge difference between those two. So that's, that's the model and I really appreciate we're coming from and I'm not going to totally disagree with you, but I think we do the best we can with with formula. Thank you, I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you. George, go ahead. Yeah, you had a question. You had to mention something about a new property in Williston that's adjacent to global foundry. So I'm wondering if you could talk a little more about that. Sure. It is. It's hard to see without looking on global earth because kind of hidden but it's behind those. You know, if you go one neighborhood back from two ways you're going towards Williston along the river directly across from the peninsula. The Global Foundry's peninsula. Is a 29 acre property that's right on the river. It has been used informally by neighbors as a part for many years. There's been a lot of residential development. There are 3. Relatively recent developments down there that have access from the back of their developments. We have been working with Trinity Baptist Church and Global Foundry's and with the town of Williston. And are trying to find and we feel the park won't work without an access where you can park the car and access the trailhead. So that's what our conversations with Global Foundry's is about. It's not, it's not a confidential conversation, but we certainly have not come up with any kind of formal agreement, but they have basically given us a handshake and said, yeah, we're really interested in this. So that would mean another park that would have a complete 100% public access. 365 days a year from dawn to dusk and would have a trail system that would bring you right down to the river. Similar, I mean, in this part of the river, it's hard to have access. There's not a whole lot of places you can get down to the river. So this would be, I think an important asset. So it's been a number of years we had a Trinity Baptist had a housing development that was going to provide that parking lot. Because of interest rates and the economy, they threw back from that. So we approach Global Foundry's for a different location. So it's taken us four or five years to get to this point. But I feel like we're running the edge of what could be a really good new asset. Thank you. You're welcome. I jumped in, but I just jumped in real quick on that point. Let me just see if Amher's got a question real quick. George can go. That's okay. George. Sorry. I just, I might want to clarify here because for us, for city residents, this the property that Nick is talking about would be very accessible. Walk down Park Street, go across the bridge and the access would be sort of up and off to the, you know, right now we're on the right hand side of the road. There's a park land that goes, this would almost be up and onto the left hand side. And there's a substation up there. Right. Okay. So you walk around the substation. So I'm very glad. And, you know, I just want to reiterate everything that Nick said, these are some of the most biologically rich and diverse ecosystems in the state and preserving them for educational recreational benefit is huge. And again, as Nick mentioned, this past year twice, the, the benefit, the huge benefit of preserving these areas was shown because they, they have swarmed the overflow of the musky river with no further damage. These ecosystems were designed for that. I mean, they evolved over how many centuries do this. And then they retreated and the organization itself is extremely well run. The benefit of having this, and I appreciate what you're saying. And if we ultimately, if they can acquire more land here and as a junction, there probably are some pockets and ultimately make a continuous chain of it, that would be great. But you have to have the structure and gradually grow the structure in order to have that. I think this is an excellent organization. I'm very glad to have been part of the issue. Thank you. Thanks George. Thank you George. So the memo indicates, it seems to indicate that we need to redo a reappointment or an appointment to the board. I don't know if I read that incorrectly, but the city's website does indicate it was only a one year term. So I just wanted to more for to figure out if we needed to have a new agenda item future meeting. Maybe it's three years.  I gotta, I gotta emphasize that. So if you choose a one year term, that's fine. But in our, in our articles association, it's, it's a three year. Okay, we might need to look into that because the, because the website does indicate that it's a one year term. I don't know, George, if you knew whether it was a three or one that you got appointed to. I thought it was three years, but I could be. Okay. I can look back. Thanks. Andrew. Okay. I'm Regina. Do you have anything you wanted to add to this? I do know. Okay. Great. Nick and Lauren, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for your time. Appreciate the info. Yeah, thanks. Take care. Thank you. Actually, before you go. Because this is, this is my weak spot. Anybody in the room have any comments or questions or anybody on zoom have any comments or questions on the Manuski Valley Park district. Not seeing anybody in the room. Not seeing any hands raised online, predominantly staff at this point. Thank you for joining us. Appreciate it. Thank you for your time. Take care. All right, we'll move on to five E Green Mountain Transit. Presentation and discussion. Thank you. Take care, George. Thanks, George. But you're gonna stay for the whole thing. Where are you going? Watch out for the podium. Good evening, everybody. Good evening. My name is Clay Clark. I'm the general manager of Green Mountain Transit. And I appreciate being here to let you know on what's going on. And I want to check in to see, you know, I can talk about transit all night. I spent about two hours with Bullistan last night. How much would you like me to talk?  Do you want a 10 to 15 minute overview? What sounds good to you all? Because Say that the bus to the town. Yes. 20 minute schedule. As long as you can say that, you can go. I would love to say that too. I mean, he's asking. But saying it is different than operating it, unfortunately.  We deeply appreciate the service. We always want more. I agree with that. And so whatever you think is appropriate to get us up to speed on what's new at GMT. So why don't I... Under 10 minutes to start there. Because you worried me with the two hours. And that was definitely a joke. And so what I'm going to do is I'm going to walk through some of the items. I'm obviously going to talk about the assessment. And if you have any clarifying questions, please ask as I go along. And there'll be some opportunities if there's rabbit holes that the board wants to dive down into. We can do that after. But I'll keep things kind of shallow and more of a broad overview.  It's of the seven public transit agencies in the state of Vermont. We're the only one that's a municipality. The other ones are nonprofits. We operate primarily, or I should say our historical primary area of operation has been in Chittenden County. And then about a decade ago we expanded into Washington County, Franklin County into rural. And what this means is that we're one of the few transit agencies in the country that has both an urban and a rural network. The federal government treats rural and urban transit differently. There's actually separate sets of rules. We have to keep separate books. And so in some ways Green Mountain Transit is really two transit organizations that share a common board of commissioners and management team. So I wanted to talk first and foremost about ridership because that kind of grounds things in, you know, why we do our business. That's getting people from point A to point B. And so the number two bus that comes through town is our second highest ridership of our urban routes. Last year there was 417,000 rides on that, which comes to about 20% of our urban total ridership. Excuse me. We also have the number 10 that connects Williston and Essex together. That's a little bit less at 344,000 rides last year. And that's about 17% of our total ridership. Do recognize that obviously not everybody is getting on that bus, you know, here in the city of Essex Junction, but that's the ridership for the entire route. So let's talk about the unfun part, which is money and the assessment for this year is $249,000. And I'm really happy that that's only a 2% increase. And I'm going to walk you through a little bit about why it's 2%. This is a little bit less than we projected even just a few months ago. And I'll tell you the reason why for that. So if you look at our fixed route service, those are the buses that I was just talking about, our fixed route assessment increased by 2.6%. Now, normally what we do is that we come up with a price for service and then to help municipalities out with monitoring their budgets and keeping predictability, then we have just a flat 4% increase year after year. And so that you all kind of know, you know, what's coming down the pike when it comes to a fixed route increase. What our board of commissioners decided to do, which we do on occasion, is we're like, hey, you know what, let's actually true up the costs. Let's look at the amount that the service provides and get them back into alignment. And so that's why the increase for the fixed route only ended up going up 2.6% instead of 4%. And so that's really one of the drivers for why we have a lower increase for this community this year. Can I interrupt you just ask a question? You're basing, so are you basing this on population or ridership? Right, we're basing on the cost of the service. So how are you coming up with our portion again? And so essentially what we do is that we look at, so this route goes through multiple communities, and that we look at the amount of time that it's spent in that community. And then that comes up with a percentage that we then apply to our total cost. And so the good news is for your community, it ended up being a little bit less. For some communities that ended up being a little more, those will be less fun trips for me to make to different communities. So happy here in my hometown that it's a little bit less. Although I guess technically it's not my hometown anymore. I'm sorry. I forgot about the separation. I hope I didn't want to bring up any bad blood. So the other part of the assessment is capital. That doesn't change. That's just a $75,000 contribution towards capital costs that all of the municipalities contribute, and that percentage has not changed year over year. The area that we see a lot of volatility is with the paratransit assessment. So because of the Americans with Disabilities Act, if there is anyone that lives within three quarters of a mile of one of our fixed routes, and they have a disability that prevents them from being able to use that fixed route, we must provide them with essentially door-to-door service. And that is contracted out through SSTA. The thing that makes it really variable is that there we're charging the actual cost based on the number of rides that are used. And when you have people who will say either move in or move out of a community, if you have somebody that's eligible for their service and they use it several times a week over a year, just one or two people changing their locations can really impact the cost that municipalities have. You all were only having a cost of what, 0.6%, which is, I wish that it was always that small. I can tell you, Williston had a 55% increase in their paratransit. And again, it's just driven by where people are and how they're using it. One of the things that we are doing is that our Board of Commissioners just decided to move to a new methodology so that to protect you all in the future, and that methodology will use a three-year running average. And so that instead of having peaks and valleys, hopefully that will then make it a little bit smoother again so that you don't have such a shock when it comes budget time. Looking at the pressures that GMT is under, I'm sure you'll be shocked to hear that it's money and labor. Probably very much similar things that you all are facing, most governmental organizations are. When you look at the labor pressures, this is actually my one-year anniversary day today. And when I arrived last year, when I would go out in the community and see our buses, there was a one in three chance that the person driving that bus was on overtime. And so we had a scarcity of drivers, which required a lot of overtime. And when it's forced overtime, our contract allows us to do forced overtime, which feels icky, but it's needed for us to be able to have the service. Those folks get double time. And so I'm really happy with the fact that we have been able to, even with that much overtime, still keep the fixed route cost as low as it increases, as low as it is. One of the things that we did is that we opened up our labor contract with the Teamsters to modify the starting wage. We had previously had a lower amount for the first year of service. We decided to get rid of that so that it would just be so that people would start at the full wage immediately. The thing that was nice about that was that since it only really was an increase for new drivers, it meant that we were able to be much more competitive without having the entire workforce have a giant increase in wages. We really appreciated the Teamsters' flexibility in working with us. And that increased our starting wage from $21.50 an hour to $28 an hour, which has really done a lot to get that overtime rate down. It's now in the 20s. We are hoping for a 15 to 20% rate. And the hope there is that that's, again, just going to make our future assessments to you more predictable and less costly. When it comes to fiscal pressures, GMT, like just about every place else in government, we got a lot of COVID relief funds. I can tell you that we're still using those funds because the amount of service that we provide is more than the revenue that we have coming in absent those funds. But we are going to project in fiscal year 26, exhausting those funds. And by the time fiscal year 27 rolls around, we're going to have a projected $3 million deficit in order to maintain the current level of service. So obviously, as the general manager, revenue is one of my highest priorities when it comes to our future and finding additional revenue sources. And one of the things that I know we're not going to be doing is looking at municipalities as the sole source or hopefully not even much of the source when it comes to new revenue, because we know that you are facing similar fiscal cliffs likely. We are going to be doing, I had mentioned before that we're the only municipal public transit agency. We're likely going to be creating a nonprofit arm so we can start doing some fundraising. We're just looking at other things that we would be able to do so that in a couple fiscal years that that $3 million gap is going to be able to be filled without impacting your service. And if we're lucky that maybe we'll find more funds that we can get to that 20 minute service, you know, that you had mentioned to start. Fairs resume on March 6, we had used to some of those COVID relief funds to have a fair free service. And that has happened since 2020 in the early stages of the pandemic. The new system that we have in place will be much more robust than our old system, which really meant that you had to have cash or a pass that you had previously purchased in order to use the bus. The new system is going to allow people to, in addition to paying with cash, to use their smartphone, use a credit card, use a smart pass that they would be able to get from us. And the thing that we're really excited about is that even though, you know, we love fair free service because we like that there is no barrier at all for people to move around or at least no financial barrier for people to move around. And when we when we came back to fares, we wanted to make sure that we would limit the financial impact. So we're kind of flipping things around in the past. If you wanted the best price for for riding, you would have to prepay for a monthly pass. And so that would mean that you would have to fork over $50 or $40 depending on when it was in order to ride for a month. And we know that for a lot of our riders, that's just, you know, that's too much to have $50 and extra cash in your pocket to buy that. The new system will track usage. And so that when it gets to $50 now, it just stops charging so that for the month. So if somebody uses it, their monthly total gets to $50, the rest of the rides that month are free. So they get the same cost benefit of buying a monthly pass. They don't have to worry about buying a monthly pass and they're not using it up. And that will and that will have both a monthly cap of $50 and a daily cap of $4.  If they are a discounted rider, so somebody that is between the ages of 6 and 17, somebody that is 60 or older or self identifies as disabled, all of those prices are cut in half. And so and the thing that I want to emphasize is, is that it's just a self identification. You know, if somebody says, hey, I have a disability, that's the end of it will will code it in the system. They don't have to provide anything to us to verify it's a trust system. And they'll be able to ride essentially unlimited throughout our region for $25 a month. And so even though it's not free, we think that's going to be a pretty good value. And I'll end on the future considerations. One of the things that I know that you're working on is finding a new commissioner for the GMT Board of Commissioners. And I really liked that you are reach out. It sounds like you are reaching out to your community to find somebody that has an interest in transit that would want to do that role.  It tends to be about money a lot more than it is about transit, which is, you know, unfortunate. But that's, you know, sort of the reality. And we look forward to working with whoever you end up appointing. And lastly, something that came out of the split between the Essex communities is that there is a program that is operated through SSTA, called the older persons and disabled transportation program. And one of the things that we're going to want to work on is making sure that when we partner with SSTA that that program is operating as well as it can here. And I know that we have some work to do just because you're recreating, you know, a lot of the things that because of the split in the community. And so that's something that we'll be working towards. And that's a program where SSTA vehicles are used to provide transportation for folks who are over a certain age or if they have a disability. So that's the quick overview. Sorry that I talked so fast at you, but I didn't want to spend too much of your time and was more interested in talking with you instead of talking at you. So what, what thoughts does anyone, you know, have anything that you want me to dive down? Appreciate that. It was a great report. I'm just going to dive into some questions. A while ago, six months or more. There's a back and forth about making root cuts and timings that were established during COVID permanent. Yeah. And there was discussion, I think between you and I and some others about, and I had a ton of feedback and I still get questions from residents. We have an awful lot of people that work, shift work at the hospital. Yes. And evening shift gets off at seven and they're waiting 40 minutes for us. Yes. Or 715 if they get out on time and can do their handoff report if they're a nurse. Yes. They're waiting 720 they get down there. They're waiting to leave. Yes. The request was to try to add one more half an hour root and 730 to catch most of these folks. I don't have good numbers, but I think it's well over a busload. They used to doesn't. And so I'm hoping that there's maybe some opportunity there to still look at that. I can tell you that officially we are not considering new service or expanded service. But I will be meeting with the transportation coordinator of the university about medical center Friday morning and we're going to be talking about this. And one of the things that we're going to need to look at is some of those numbers we've had a hard time getting those numbers I've requested from the hospital but I think this person is going to be able to get it for us. If we're just talking about switching a, you know, maybe making a service a little bit earlier, as opposed to an addition, I think that that may be, you know, more likely. One of the things that I can tell you in the year that I've been at Green Mountain Transit and I don't I don't have a transit background I have a human services background is that everything that I look at it's like oh that'd be simple and easy.  And, and I can tell you that, frankly, one of the challenges that we have is that connecting all of those routes with the driver schedules. And, especially because what we find is that there's the peak demand generally is throughout the system the peak demand. And so, but getting earlier clearly my wife works at the hospital, I think that she would, you know, like to be able to do that instead of parking at Fannie, because the number two goes right by our, our place and that would be easier for you so I'm sympathetic. And, you know, it's the, you know, bring up the number 10 again, our service, even though it's not our community necessarily impacts our families that work up in that area and work in Williston. Absolutely. I just don't get it. It's three the numbers that you rattled that you said before, you know, 17% of the system. It's hourly. It just makes me think what if it was half hour, it'd be potentially even higher. And again, respecting the numerous, you know, aspects of this that I have no clue about realizing the system is massive and complex, but I'm hoping that you all are pushing. I'm sure you push.  We're adding people in this community on the feels like on a monthly basis. And those are major employment areas. And so I'm, I'm still a little, not with you. I'm just flabbergasted that it's hourly. And not only that, but it serves our residents ability to get to the grocery store, the big grocery store and the big shopping center. Yes. And that is a huge barrier. Yes. I don't, I don't feel that hourly services is acceptable in an urban area just because it does make it a big. It's late and I'm tired. It disincentive to use sure to use it. And, and I could tell you that having higher frequency service across the network, you know, would be something that I would absolutely be working towards if we can, if we can get the that right. One of the things that is challenging for us is that we get graded by the FDA and on six different factors. And the good news is, is that the higher the grade, the more money that we get. But we already are rated in like the 85 to 90% of all small transit, you know, cities, which makes it our ability to go and get more money from them.  And, and, and so that's where I think that, you know, Burlington area should really be proud of the fact that our services as good as it is, but we know that it can be better. One of our newest board members is a former ambassador who spent their career living in Europe and he's like, Why doesn't this look like, you know, there and I agree with them, and we would love to work, you know, towards that. Just be remiss if I didn't bring it up every chance I got. I agree. Yeah. Andrew. Just one question you mentioned that the fixed route assessment is based upon the amount of time that a bus is within the community. Is that how idle time, or is that moving time. Um, it's not based on the like, like we don't use the GPS trackers, you know, like to do that. It's based on the on the on the routes schedule. So, so we know based on, you know, history that the number two at this time of day takes, you know, this amount of time, you know, to come through. And so that's my understanding is what it's, you know, what it's built on. Great. Just given the number of times I see it sitting at the bus stop over here by the train station and the driver walking in to get a coffee just wanted to make sure that that's equitable for communities like Manuski who are absolutely dependent upon that two bus getting there. Yes. Yeah. Great. I'm aware of it because I dropped my daughter off at ADL and and I go through the five corners, you know, twice a day and I hate when I see my bus sitting there with It's not good for anybody.  Sorry.  No, that's correct. If they were to make that decision that, you know, that that was best for the community. Our assessment model would not do that one for the fixed route or for the paratransit. Although I guess technically, you know how I said that there's a $75,000 capital. So that would change that slightly but there we're only talking about, you know, hundreds or small thousands of dollars. No, I if nothing else, I want to reiterate some of the things that were already already made. I grew up in Chicago. I have lived in other larger municipalities. And I just came back from Chicago and I had my venture card my seven day pass. It was great. You know, with my phone just blip go. But thinking about this and how I'm curious about how route development kind of happens because I understand the position that GMT is currently in. But to get us to a place because one of the things about living here for as many years I have one of the things I still feel like again with the timing of those particular buses. It's not convenient for most people. So even in a community that we consider relatively urban, it still feels like I need to have a vehicle in order to get to my active life. Yes. And being said, how do we change that paradigm? How does GMT help change that paradigm because I feel like if we're going to get to a place where a route will be worth the money for GMT to run. We have to kind of run it at a higher schedule just to get there. Yes. If it were running every half hour here out of, you know, just speaking about this community and connected to others, obviously, but if we had a bus that ran every half hour going to the grocery store, the grocery store. Yes. And it ran long enough that you could start building up that ridership. Yes. And I think especially as we develop a city that is more walkable, bikeable, you know, multimodal, people will start using more. Yes. My fear is that the current GMT model is stagnant and not, it's not built or is building in a way that will transform and move not just this community, but the communities around us into being those multimodal cities that are communities that I think every community is talking about. So can you talk about that route development and how you look at that moving forward? Well, I'm going to focus on it from the real driving factor here, which is not going to shock you as money. And so one of the things that when you look at our FTA funding, the funding that we get outside of those performance-based things that we're almost maxing out is based on our population, not based on rides. And so I think that that's where it's going to be difficult to expand there unless we do what I think GMT and I don't mean to be critical at all about our board or the previous general managers. But I don't think that we had enough of an entrepreneurial spirit. I think that we looked at it as here's the money that comes in from the FTA. Here's the money that comes in from V-Trans. Here's what our municipalities are willing to give us. And that's what we'll, you know, we'll just take that and build a system based on that. I am much more interested in finding money sources that aren't from those three sources. I think that we've already maxed out those areas. Having come from the Agency of Human Services when I worked for the state, you know, every single program that I worked in had transportation as a barrier for the people that we were serving. And so one of the reasons why I want to create that nonprofit is because an awful lot of the Agency of Human Services and federal grant opportunities are geared for nonprofits. And then that will give us the ability to apply for a lot more grants. And so, and then that will then give us the flexibility to add to it. I can tell you there's a real hard problem when it comes to changing service because even when you have a line that is not used very much, those people that are using it, you know, have real opinions about changes to it and having it go away. And so I think that that's one of the reasons why you haven't seen a lot of, you know, changes in our route system because it's politically difficult to make those. And I'll end with is what you started with. So in Washington County, we had, we are currently have reduced service because we had staffing departures that we weren't able to fill. And we just couldn't operate on the full schedule. What we, what that means is that the city commuter that normally connects Barry to Montpelier is running hourly instead of half hourly. Well, it's moving a lot less people. And so it's not just that people are, you know, okay, well, I'll wait for it to be on the hour. They're just, they're not using it. Right. And so I think that it absolutely speaks to the fact that the more frequent the service than the more people will use it. So, and I, I totally understand the stress there. It sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy was set up to for Washington County. That being said, looking at this and I hope that the board will will consider potentially a different approach or a look at a new approach about developing routes because again, I think if, if it felt convenient, if it felt more accessible, more people would end up using it. And with the fact that fees are coming back, that kind of participation might help to offset some of the cost challenges that are happening. Obviously, other sources will have to be found. Yes. And I do I should have mentioned also that there is that the legislature is going to get a report next week for non federal matching funds that can be generated within the state that would be used towards public transit. And even though that would be for all of the different transit agencies, GMT as the largest would end up getting, you know, the largest bite of that, that new Apple. And they are considering other things that will help us. Hopefully, if the legislature is able to act, you know, fill there. But, but let's be honest, we're also talking about new taxes and fees and we have an administration that doesn't really care for new taxes and fees. So I'm not sure whether that will come through and I guess I'm not even sure why I even brought that up. But I started meandering a bit. But I do know that we are thinking about, you know, things and thinking and I guess that just we recognize that we can't just look at the same old ways of funding this that we have in the past. Yeah, I mean, I go one of the examples I'll put on the back on the table was the college street shuttle Berlin Burlington, which only ran in the summer. But I found to be extremely valuable. One I live locally but watching the people who are coming to visit Burlington, using that particular service and I know Burlington over the years talked about trying to move cars out. Yes. I hire people parking and parking lots like the one up at UVM and trying to transport in. Yes. That aside, I want to bring up one other thing and this will be my last piece but in conversations that we've had as a city about our changing services. We recently had discussions about some change in services with the senior center and our relationship with the senior boss with the town of Essex is you're aware I'm sure. Yes. I do want to acknowledge the fact that we heard from constituents who were unhappy with the application process because it felt onerous and confusing. Okay. So, I, so I just want to acknowledge that I think a portion of that was the involvement of the doctor and pieces like that. So, and so I don't know if it would from Regina or Roger, if you could send me some of the specifics, you know, to look into that I'd be happy to look into it. I do know one of the things that has surprised me, you know, I thought that I was, I used to regulate long term care facilities my last job was managing Congress home and and Burlington and I thought that, you know, going through the Medicaid stuff was interesting and moving to public transit.   And they're operating ADA service, non-emergency medical transport service, older than disabled service, perhaps a mobility relief for all service. And they all have totally different criteria. And they don't, they're not really consistent with each other because they're all coming from different federal or state silos. And it really, I feel like almost like in the human services community where you need to have these navigators that will help people like figure out, hey, this is the program that you need here. This is the program that you need here. It seems like the same thing for public transit because it's not intuitive. Thank you. I appreciate that. Picking up on what Marcus and you just discussed, you know, noting that you said earlier, the new fare system will be honor based.  And yet this really critical service for seniors and disabled folks has multiple hoops. And it's, it is honor as we've heard many complaints. And so I would just echo the request to analyze that system and streamline it. It's just, it's too much for the seniors to have to navigate. On a separate topic you had said earlier that it's difficult to change routes. And in FY 27, you're anticipating a three and a half million dollar shortfall. Yes, absent route changes. So I just want to put a plug in there to say, Route two and route 10. Don't touch them, please. Several years ago, there was an attempt to change the routes route to both route to and route 10 I think. And Green Mountain Transit held some hearings and communities affected and this was a standing room only room.  They were shocked that people were so upset and they ended up keeping the route. And that route is essential to the folks who live here. So I really just want to make sure that route to and route 10 stay the way they are. It'd be awesome to see them increase every 20 minutes. But at the very least, please don't cut them. I mean, if somebody rides route, the number two bus, I mean, it's also the fort. Bandy, the house. When you ski especially. Yeah, it's full from much in the morning and afternoon. Yes. And a lot of the best for a lot of the folks who ride in Essex. They live fairly close to the route and some don't have cars. It's their only transportation to work. Yes. So it's really crucial that that route stays the way it is. And, you know, one of the things that I want to, well, first, let me acknowledge that our board is committed to expanding service. Sometimes that scares me because I look at them and I'm like, let's preserve service first because we're still they are still in a growth mindset, which I love. One of the things that I recognize that we need to do is that we need to get earlier in the process when it comes to the development. And so I'm going to pick on, say, South, you know, Burlington a little bit and to their credit, they are working with us closely now on trying to come up with solutions to the fact that they have these new large housing developments where public transit was an afterthought after they were built. And so one of the things that we would want to make sure that we work with you all is that if we do see, you know, changing patterns and where people are living along the route that we get involved early. Yeah. Well, it's interesting to say that because I was going to say something along the lines of the town is looking at a new completely new development up there where number 10 goes, which is just going to over the next 15 years almost explode. Yes. I'm adding in the hundreds of apartments over the next five to eight years, 10 years. And I'm speaking for myself. I would rather add money to those routes, then add money to parking. I really don't want to be spending money on parking organized parking parking garages. I'd rather put it to roots and put it to public transit. That's just me, but having those conversations early and often. That's the only way we're going to get them increased. Yeah, but and we don't, there's been a lot of discussion about the difficulty in creating housing and obviously housing is one of the number one, you know, priorities and I don't want to put another barrier there. But one of the things that we're also seeing is that there is a disconnect from the early stages of the permitting process for where a developer will say, you know what we don't need to put in so much parking because we're going to have public transit. And then they get the permit and we never hear from them. And so it's, it's kind of like, you know, we need to be able to connect the dots so that if there was a commitment made during the permitting process, you know, that once it's built that actually comes to fruition. And I, you know, I don't want to make new housing any more expensive. You know, but there's the potential there that we know we should look at if you're going to save money by not having to put in parking spaces because of those obvious costs and maybe some of the funds that are saved there, you know would go into helping establish a new line. Because if you expand service, you know, then you're not just adding additional drivers, you're adding additional buses, so there'll be a capital cost, you know, that will be will be there. And, you know, those contributions would be great. Thank you. Is anyone else have anything else. Thank you for staying so long. We're going to go out to the room and to zoom so please don't go for just a second. I saw Harlan with your hand up. Yeah, I was curious. And I'm going to pick on bus number 10 into one hour route. How is that organized that one bus continuously moving. Does it take an hour to complete that route do we have buses sitting on one end of the loop and the other end of the loop. Yeah, one of the things that I was really surprised when I came to GMT as I thought that that's, you know, how those would work. And what they most often they then go on to do another route. Part of that is the drivers like having, you know, the different routes. Part of it's just the timing where they may already have the other bus starting on the other end of the route. And so it doesn't always happen to be the case. There are some, some routes to do just circle, but I think that those are the minority. So can you give me the numbers for the bus routes again. I think route channel was 316,000 344 344. Yeah, but just shy of 1000 people. Yeah. And, you know, if you look at it, probably the majority is the Monday through Friday, which it would be over, you know, 1000, you know, right. And because the end of the flow is in the ways of bus issues. That's, yeah, that's moving a lot of people. Absolutely. Absolutely. And then the number on route to route to is 417. And that's between Brawlington. Yes. Yes. And Yes. And we operate seven, but the service or the ridership on the weekend is much less than the operation of hours from 6am to 5am. It's route dependent. Yeah. Is there anyone online that I don't see any hands up online? Nope. All right. Thank you very much. And if anyone wants a great job, $28 now to start, we'll pay for your CDL. And I just ask that you like people. Well, that did it. All right. 5F discussion and consideration of CCRBC.  UPWAP application. Yup. So I'll try to normalize that at the next meeting. Yeah. See how it goes. So essentially this is the annual solicitation that CCRBC puts out to the municipalities so they can know what projects each of us would like to help with from them. We have three projects in priority order GIS services. That's really both to help out needs both at the community development department and the wastewater stormwater department. Also, we have a that is a fee for service projects, the GIS services. So the cost of that is split between those two departments. The Earl Street project is the second on the list. That's really to try to look at some short term potential alternatives between Susie Wilson Road and West Street extension because that bigger project is very costly and expensive. And we don't know how to figure out how to get that paid for yet. So this could potentially look at some alternatives in the in between. Third, the TV condition assessment of stormwater pipes. This is a number of years in a row now we've asked for this assistance to basically TV what those pipes look like underground and see which need to be prioritized. So the match and dollar amounts are there in the memo and the recommendation is to submit these requests as drafted. Any questions from council. The only thing I want to go ahead and say, no, I didn't even look over. Okay. Sorry. I'm just curious about the Pearl Street project. I recall that the town of Essex was also working on significant changes and upgrades to the intersection of Susie Wilson and 15. And so, how does this project interface with that or does it at all. So, Regina, if it helps me answer that, I can the town of the town of Essex is involved in that project, but that is actually mostly at the trans the trans project. They have been in constant communication with us about their, their plans move forward with that but they have not actually decided to to do so. So far, and are when they asked us for, you know, ask the city for a letter of concurrence for their latest design. We actually agreed with with the town that they should go back and look at whether or not traffic patterns traffic conditions have changed since coven. And maybe it's not necessary to the dual left turn lane over there. Regardless, though, this is what the study that's that's I'm proposing that we do with the CCRPC would focus on using temporary measures, paint and posts. And, and things that can be more easily reversed if it was, if it was necessary or change in the future. And I think that intersection, if there was a need to to further change it in the future, I don't think what comes out of this project would be an impediment. And their project would not be an impediment to what we're trying to accomplish. I mean, we will be we would have to be in communication with them about what their latest plans are, but there are ways we can work around it. Yeah, I mean, thanks Chris, because back in the day was being discussed that they were so intertwined. Now I always going to say earlier was I appreciate you keeping this moving. The idea of improving that corridor it's this odd spot that's very difficult to navigate. And I'll just be annoying and say if there's a way to set up pro street a little bit and talk about, you know, a crosswalk smack dab in the middle of all those new permitted departments that are coming online in the next two years. And add that to this maybe just do that later I'm just, you know, spitballing here. We needed crosswalk in that neighborhood even if it doesn't pass speed tests. Yes, it's. Thank you for getting Pearl Street on there. Amber, you had a question. Yeah, I just wanted to make sure I was understanding. So the additional money that we put in the budget or that the town put in the budget for the assessor. For the GIS is in addition to the requests here for GIS support. Yes, that makes sense. Okay. Yep. That GIS support that happens over on the town side is very particular to parcel data and keeping up parcel information. The work that both Chris and Chelsea need is much more specific Chelsea in terms of stormwater infrastructure and inventories and projects that are going on from that perspective. And Chris much more broadly in terms of trying to look at mapping and zoning mapping and just lots of different scales. Okay, thanks. Any questions for council anything else for anything else to add. No, anyone in the room have any comments or questions about this program we're talking about or anyone online on zoom. Please raise your hand. I'm not seeing anyone in the room or on zoom so I would entertain the motion packet page 41. I'll move to we make a motion to authorize staff to submit the UPWP requests application is dropped. Second. Any further discussion hearing none all those in favor say hi. All those opposed nay motion passes. Thank you very much. Thanks Chris. We need a two minute break everybody okay. Okay. Okay. All right. Move on to 5g discussion of FY 25 general fund budget and budget schedule. Okay. So what you've got in your packet is essentially a description of all the changes that were talked about during budget day. Essentially what that does is get us to a two 6.9% budget increase and a 7.7% tax rate increase. The remainder of what is in the narrative here describes the other questions that came up from council and what the answers to those questions are. We can certainly take a look. Talk about any of that further if anybody would like to. We have also asked staff to ask department heads to think about if there is any reductions that they could think of that could be feasible. I have a list of those that I am happy to walk through for folks. Pretty quickly and certainly they come with impacts that are not all fantastic, but happy to walk through that. If that is helpful then in terms of just big picture and schedule. What we're really hoping for is some direction from the council tonight. Because at the next meeting, we're going to have to get to a place that we're comfortable turning around a budget that we are going to present to the community on Saturday, the 27th, just a couple of days after the 2024. So, I'll run through the changes or suggestions for potential changes that that will help. So, finance department, there is a $16,000 a year cost for the Cuesta ca software. Just very quickly that is a software we have been wanting to move to for a little bit now it is been slow to implement because there's been just so much going on. And the real benefit of that is that there's much more clear transparency what happens and what gets paid for it shows up right that very night and so it's a little bit more alive stream of where we're at as opposed to monthly financial reports. In the streets budget, we can reduce paving and we can reduce the cost of salt. The impacts of that certainly are that we will just be delaying maintenance on those road improvements. And in terms of salts we just can't really predict the future on exactly what it is that that we will need. We are looking at a putting together a bid right now for a new dump truck. And there are some improvements in that dump truck that really tries to look at using salt more efficiently. So there is that. Again, no way to really be able to define what that looks like in terms of salt savings. In the administration budget. We talked about how we tried to add some funding in there for increased community outreach and engagement. Again, those are kind of placeholders for things that we will likely need but we don't have specifics on that so that is that is an option. We have the new CAPMA membership in there again relatively small dollar amount but we are not using that now. So that that could come out. Obviously, we want to encourage folks to use the bus. So that's, that's the point of that. So the fire department so they've got the, I want to say salary that's not the right term at all but the wage increases associated with covering the volunteer time. It is possible that we can delay the start of that to January. The downsides certainly are that we really have been wanting to make this change for a while now to get folks paid for that volunteer time and this would only delay the inevitable. If we reduce this now with a January one start time. It just means that this increase you will see next year when you do the budget. You mean this is specifically paying paying for time in train. Yes, and just want to make sure everybody's clear. I should have started also by everybody's here to help with questions as they come up. Building budgets. So in the to Lincoln line it there are some possibilities to reduce a couple of reductions really into Lincoln that's coming from the concept that we're going to be kind of shut down here and renovating. So there is some potential that we can look at some of those reductions again fairly small numbers but in the $5000 range. Park Street School. There's a potential reduction there. But those are I think this is a maintenance line. Harlan did an awesome job giving me the number and I'm like quickly not seeing which those lines are but there were just a lot of work done on that on that building and they still have some issues to address so that reduction would be probably not as feasible as doing those to Lincoln reductions. Then on Maple Street. Also, I think this is a maintenance line there is the potential of reducing that by $5000. The only pressing matter is a roof completion. Again, reducing maintenance costs come with the risk that we don't have that money in hand to do things that may come up that we are not prepared for. And then also just identifying that you do have a general fund transfer of $50,000 that goes into the building maintenance fund. We've had that in place. I'm not sure how long traditionally that's been in place but again, we've got real costs in our buildings and so that reduction would be challenging both in terms of the projects that we've got lined up and the future of just if we stop doing that transfer. Again, I'll point out on that one. I would not in any way recommend not doing this transfer going forward into the future. So if we were to not do that transfer this year. Next year we're going to see that and it'll look like an increase. There is a potential reduction in terms of a personnel change that I think is is fairly feasible. I'm not going to talk specifics about that but that's probably in about $11,000 adjustment. The library has been looking at some part-time hours. It appears that we had an inadvertent reduction in part-time hours in FY24. So they're trying to look at what's kind of going on there and if we can do any reduction in the FY25 budget or really we've kind of correcting what happened in FY24. They are also looking at some potential software and if there's any reductions that can happen there. So that is the list. I would just say from my perspective. One of my concerns is the unassigned, the very low unassigned fund balance that we currently have at the end of FY23. So the tricky part about kind of really trying to fine-tune and tweak a lot of some of these small numbers is we, that is not going to help us solve that problem of trying to get that unassigned fund balance to a more comfortable place. I think that's all I have to start the conversation. And like I said, folks are here to help answer questions if you've got. So with everything you just read off, being in addition to the chart, the lengthy chart that we got in the packet, page one and two.  I'm a little concerned if we're at the point where Nicol and diming this, I think we've got bigger problems. And as Regina said, we're going to set ourselves up for being overly conservative and possibly get ourselves into trouble. That said, there were some items in that list that we may want to take advantage of that didn't seem like they'd be problematic. So I guess that's where I'll start on some of the bigger ones. There was a finance one determined correct costs and allocations for finance software subscriptions. What was that? Was that the quest to go? That's the question. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's still, I guess that's still technically on the table, right? All of it is. I was, if it helps you, do you want me to more say the ones I said that were not so problematic? Yeah. Okay. So I think to Lincoln around $5,000 reduction in that building budget is probably an okay one. And there's about an $11,000 reduction if we do personnel change. I'd have a hard time without without knowing what the actual impact it's a, I know you don't want to talk about right now. So maybe it's, it sounds mutual. And it sounds doable. I don't know that helps you. I can live big for a little while. Yeah. I just want to, I'm just going to, and so those are the two that you think will have a little impact Regina. Okay. The other ones I was going to mention in this list was I'm not entirely comfortable. I know we talked on budget day about reducing the strategic plan implementation to 10. We also talked about the fact that we're, we've got several initiatives underway and likely more and we adopted a way that we want to communicate with the community. That's structured and spelled out. And if we don't have the money to do that. We, I don't know what we've just done. So I would say that at minimum, we need to, to meet that back at half. Or leave it the way it was. Because we've, like I said, we're basically what I said. So. It was 50 originally, I would be nervous about going much below 30 on that. Personally, I think we need some ability to do that work. We just did a, we just did a number of mailers and that was quite the conversation about how that was going to happen. So. The economic development one, which is next, the concept of not having money in the budget for a community meal. Budget time next year concerns me. And, but this. This one HHS assessing in debt. That just looks like a. Something we've just managed to recapture. On page 2 of the transmittal. In the chart almost near the bottom. Updated figures, budget files. Yes, I think I could be wrong, but I think that is because of the. The new tax. Sorry, I can get more detail on what, what that actually is. Sounds like yet. Okay. And then we've saved. There's 37,000 less 38,000 less from. Correcting a payroll. Correcting the, oh, yeah, that's what that is. Childcare portion, right? Is that childcare?  Yeah. And I'm, I'm sure Amber's going to talk about this, but I'm super I'm pretty hesitant about the capital changing any of that capital contribution. We should probably talk about that. So those are my initial thoughts, you know, trying to some of these seem like. But I'm still on the fence about the Cuesta software. Mind hearing from Jess about. How does she thinks that might impact the department.  So, first on things that were mentioned earlier, I would say that I'm not in favor of. Adjusting the start for. The fire department. I think that's something that's been needed and necessary for quite some time. I think it's. Well deserved. And again, as we. As I hear that we continue to. While we've got a great team over there. It sounds like we sometimes struggle to find more people to participate and I don't want to. I don't want that to be a barrier. To anyone participating in. The fire department and giving their time. They, I think they deserve something for that. I do have a question. In relationship to the chart in the. About the adjustments that were made. And I probably need a reminder about this. But looking at all the savings that were there. That were made in the adjustment. It all gets wiped away plus some with the transfer to capital.  You brought up wanting to bring this back. Can I get. If nothing else or refresher on some of that reasoning, because it. Those kind of. To go back to your point, we are doing a fair amount of nickel and timing to try to bring this down. So it's difficult and this is a big chunk that wipes out the adjustments that are made. I'd be happy to I think it might have been amber though and just as the chair of the capital committee, I think she'd be better equipped to speak to the. I think it's a little. Budget issues. Then I think it's a complete sentence. Thanks Andrew, as the former chair, you certainly could speak to it. I can see you punting that though. I think that, I mean, I'll also bring Jess into this conversation. There is a chart in the materials that shows. The amount of money that's that's in the capital fund and the amount of money that we need to do the work that's in the plan now. And my concern is that if we. Don't keep along the same path that we are and putting that additional money into the capital fund, even though we have the lot. We need to find ourselves in a position where we're having to go for a bond. A lot sooner than we thought we were going to because we have a lot of projects and none of them are cheating. None of them are cheating. And this is just a point in time today. This is not this isn't even like a full list. This is just today. So tomorrow could be six other things that need to come in there. So my concern is, is that when we were we originally and Andrew was on the board. When we have started originally doing this process of putting money into the capital fund. It's with this idea that we knew we needed to put X amount to keep a crewing to allow us to continue to do these projects. So, and just definitely step in here and contribute on the finance part because I'm definitely going to stumble over that piece, but I think looking at that chart that's what that's what brings me back to. If we remove that contribution, even having the lot, we're going to find ourselves in a sticky situation. Yeah, so to add on to what Amber saying on page 139 of the packet is the summary sheet of the capital various capital fund balances. So the general fund capital reserve. So we're projecting that FY 30, we will be a million dollars short in that fund for those projects that year so you know FY 30 seems like it's a ways off but it's really not. And like Amber said, we have, we know that we have more projects that are yet to be identified or new projects that are going to come up. Just in the next few years that maybe we didn't anticipate needing to happen as soon as they now need to. Another thing I'll add, I know that the village slash city has kind of always taken the approach of paying cash basically for everything, which, you know, you can have you basically land on one of two sides of a coin here. There are people that are all for paying cash and others who favor bonding or or borrowing. I'll say that the city has done a great job of paying cash and the advantages to that are your earning interest on the money that you're the funds that you're building up over time. It's better buying power in some cases and on the flip side of that, if you're bonding or borrowing, you're paying interest on those projects that also is not accounted for in this in these projections so basically you're you're spending more money to spend the same amount of money. By borrowing for it. And I, I appreciate it. Thank you for that. The other thing I want to, I want to ask about going back to your comment about the library. So as we talked about staff my understanding of the staffing levels going into this next budget. The intention of getting there was to have a certain number of people in the library during its open hours. So you're saying that we already got there with the staffing we have. I mean, they're already, they've exceeded that staffing level from the last budget or I'm sorry. Yeah, I think as we've been looking at the FY 25 budget, it seems like there is a problem in the FY 24 amount of part time. And so as Wendy's on here, she can chime in, but I'm pretty sure they're still looking at that to figure out what, whether the dollar amount that's in there now, the hours amount is correct or whether there is the potential for some reduction. So they are, they're taking a look at that. I don't have the answer for you tonight, but. The other question on staffing is when we're talking about positions at the library, are we talking about positions that are librarians and I say that from an educated, I have a degree in library science that kind of librarian versus we have people working in the library to do customer service work or other work that does happen in a library besides just a formal librarian, because I imagine that also comes with a certain pay scale because of that education and experience, which may be different than if you're looking for somebody who's just covering the front desk to handle customer service. I think we have to assume though that even, even there it's a fairly specialized level of customer service that has to have a certain trained in knowledge of. Anyway, yeah, yeah. Wendy, do you want to take that. I'm pretty sure I should also I meant to say that Wendy has no power. She, I think this is her on the phone there. Yeah, but it's really possible that she might not actually be able to. This could also be potentially answered later if necessary. I think it's where the phone is. Yeah, I think that's her to but she could be having trouble. She's out of power. She has been since last night so. She can get back to me on that one that I don't think is essential to the it's just understanding again, where the staffing costs are coming from and what's impacting that. The other thing and yeah. Okay, got it. Thank you. Can she hear us. Stand by for more. I mean, yeah. Okay. So, I would think Wendy. I don't think it's critical that we get this question answered tonight. If you do want to email it, we can go with that, but otherwise we will, we will get it sorted out afterwards. I think the question if I can summarize Marcus is what is the level of library and expertise that's needed in all of the different positions and in terms of the customer service front. Yeah. So she will email you. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Just to put in my. The level of customer service, the skill level that is needed in all of those positions is very high. They're constantly working with people from all different backgrounds, and they have to know a ton about all the data that all the databases that they offer. They have to talk about just so many things most I'm sorry. I'm not thinking of. Yeah. You know, there's all kinds of stuff going on. There's software the other day. There's just such a range of things that they need to know and have to address. Yeah. Right. And I hear, and I hear that and I hear that I've heard that before and obviously I'm aware of the situations that have happened at the library. I think one of no, no, no, no, but there's all there's various kinds. But some but I have to. I sometimes start to wonder though, if the library is too many things or attempting to be too many things. And I, I know what it needs to do and I know that by statute what it needs to do. And I know what it brings provides so much benefit. But I just wonder if there is a line and I don't know that it's easily drawn. But if there's a line that needs to be drawn about what we can and can't do and the services that we do provide to any and all parties while being open to any and all parties. Right. So it's a difficult balance. So I just want to acknowledge that. And then also that is what a library does. Yes. And a robust library has to do that. That makes it so hard. Yeah. And I think if you look into the community of libraries throughout the United States and across the world, the position of libraries and the things that they provide are growing. They've become much more than just a place to borrow a book. They provide access for people to use computers who have no access to online to get a job to get it actually to come in from the cold. We are open to everybody. We are open to provide services and they seem to be growing all the time. And since, you know, I've been involved in a library for 25 years and it's changed dramatically.  It's like a different entity there. And it's very hard to say, well, okay, every other library is this way, but we're going to focus down. We're not going to really provide resources. I think the community would not be pleased with that, at least from what we hear from the people that we serve. And I don't disagree. But I, in looking at this too, and I looked at the data from the public library database and looking at the other communities also around us. So just for discussion sake and comparison. And this is taking into account census population data. So looking at communities that are similar in size to us. FY 25 safe. And again, we're talking about 1.1 for our, for our libraries, some around there. Sorry, I'm not looking specifically at S6 Junction budget right now. But Williston is looking at an $871,000 budget for their library. Milton is looking at, well, actually in 2024, it was 304,000. S6 is 512. Brattleboro, 808,000. Some of these are very close to home. Colchester, 892. If we're talking about right sizing our departments, I look at these kinds of numbers and what these other communities who are similar to us in size, similar to us in scope. And I'm sure that all libraries have the exact same mission and intention. I start to ask the question about whether or not we're truly right sized for our community. That is not to be in against the library by any stretch. It's just a matter of asking the question about whether or not. Our budget really is tuned to be right sized for the community that we are. So that's why I think about is that we draw people in. People in S6 town come to our library because they don't have resources at their library that our library. But is not the town of Essex also connected to the same network like the home card? Aren't they? So they have access to the same resources. They may not do all the things that our library does, but they are connected to many of the same references and resources. Yes, but they probably, I'm sure they all have a number of books. And the, the number of, I mean, I can't speak specifically to all the databases we have. Yeah. So we have some, we have many, and perhaps as the town doesn't have some of them, so they come to us so they can use them. Another thing to remember is that libraries, our library generates no revenue because of the library. However, paper costs go up, book costs go up, database costs go up. We have no control over that. And we have no way of getting money to pay for that except for taxes. Absolutely. And grants. I think another thing you have to look at is the community that the different libraries serve and the diversity of the population and the different populations that come into the library. I don't know if that's part of the consideration when you're looking at these different libraries. I'll also tell you that it used to be, and I don't know if it's still the case, but behind the Fletcher Free, the Brown L Library had the best research, research sources in the state.  But we were really one of the premier libraries in the state. If you call to librarians in the state, they still, they still think that the Brown L is really one of the top libraries in the state. And I, and I don't argue that at all. And looking at the Fletcher Free, for instance, the both libraries, the Brown L and the Fletcher 3 are open about the same amount of hours, according to this reporting. And the librarian hours are exactly the same while their other set, their other staff hours theirs is significantly higher. So can I make an observation? I want us to get away from comparing services offered by the various libraries because every community is different. And we are all, when I say we, all the libraries, we're serving, what's the word? We're serving a mobile community. It is very true that residents from all sorts of other towns come to Brown L, residents go to Fletcher Free. I'd rather we didn't get down into the weeds about those details. And the main reason for that is because by statute, we have no authority to dictate to that level of detail. So, and we are not, we are not librarians, we're not experts, and we are not literally allowed to go down into the level of depth that we've started talking about. And so talking about databases and that kind of thing, I don't think is helpful at the moment. But what I think we could be saying, and some of the statistics you did read out, Marcus, about the various towns and their populations, and that's definitely comfortables that we could talk about. But in the end, what we're trying to do is find space in our budget. And statutorily, we can say to the library department, this is the percentage that we need from you. And that is the only thing we can say. And then it is up to the professionals at the library and their board are elected, part appointed, or self selected to make those decisions. So I don't want to get into the discussion of which cuts should be made, because that's not our jurisdiction. I think we have to stay out of that area of specifics. You can reach out later in debate, but they have a board that goes through those things. Exactly. That's fine. I understand that. And I'm not looking to do that here, because I think that would just consume far too much time anyway. And for that particular opportunity, if nothing else, what I simply want to say is, based on looking at the data, based on how I'm feeling about where we are with the budget. I'm asking questions about the right sizing of all the departments, not just the library, that bringing up, for instance, EJRP and looking at communities around us as well. EJRP is not as if I were to do the comparison. Again, same communities, right? Williston, this is FY 25 budgets. Williston is looking at 652,000, Milton's 270,000, Essex 1.1, Brattleboro 719.  And they're looking to bond for an additional indoor facility. Williston is talking about an additional indoor facility. I was reminded recently about the pool and the fact that we have a pool that's, you know, beautiful and wonderful and people use it all the time. I don't want to take away those services, right? But at the same time, it's something that we have opened two months of the year. So I start to go, if I don't like a seven and a half percent increase to what was said, has been said to me and rightfully so, what are we going to, what would we redline? And I'm not saying that we should, but I'm throwing all this stuff on the table to go. Let's talk about what rights sizing these departments looks like. I think you're smart to use comparables from other communities. I think that's important. I think we still have to have conversations. If we're going to have conversations like that about the departments that seem to be the most expensive, we should be having those comparable conversations about every department. So what's, what's public works doing in Colchester? Would you like to know? I've got it. Well, let's see that. That's what I'm getting at. Like you've got data that we don't have. So perhaps you might want to share that out so that we could be really helpful. The only thing I'd like to note on this, if I may, is at some point we do need to make a decision about some of these things. We are allowed to enact some cuts somewhere and or provide direction to staff specifically around us. One thing just going back to, to the libraries. My understanding is that we are allowed to talk about an overall goal. We are allowed to talk about an overall funding level and just knock it down to the nitty gritty. So if there is a proposal for a certain ask, either a budget percent reduction or an overall budget number, we are allowed to do that, but not X amount of money for whatever service. So just to make sure that we're on the same page there. Along that line in terms of comparisons, one thing that I would just offer, I would like to venture to guess that we are not exactly the city of Boston in terms of needs, in terms of service levels. The Boston Public Library Service is open 48 hours per week. We're open 58. I really don't think that Essex Junction requires that many more hours of library service than the entire city of Boston metropolitan area over 60 million. Just for comparison sake. You're comparing apples and oranges. I'm sorry. Exactly. Well, no, not, well, we're talking about that from two different ways. Again, I prefer what's happening here is we're beating up on the library. I'm not done yet. I've got a couple of things. And seeing as we don't have the authority to do much more than what you already said, we have the authority to it seems pointless to me to beat up on the library. So I'm not beating up on the library. I want to be very clear on that. I'm pointing out some facts that some people might not like. And one is that there is a very significant amount of time that our library is open compared to many other communities in our state. I believe ours has opened the most out of any other library in the state, more so than the library system within Boston, with the exception of central Boston library in Copley is open more. Well, let's rest of them though. Excuse me. It's not interrupt. I'm sorry. What I'm saying is in terms of getting that point of what we can do is I would propose that our council talk about whether or not we want to have the library come back to us with a budget that would have a library open. That would be about 48 hours per week instead of what it currently is. So that's something I'd like to see us talk about and agree to or disagree to at some point in time. I'm ready to move on from the library. Can I just make one observation? Sure. Last one from me. I just don't want this to be coming back. No, I understand. Please wait. I just want to say instead of direct, I think what our level of direction can be is percentage or dollar amount. And then if the library professionals decide that they are going to continue to provide services to the community with the hours that they're open and they can do it in the new parameters that we set, that's up to them. If they're prioritizing customer service by doing other things, whatever it takes to meet the numbers we provide, that would satisfy me. So I don't want to be overly prescriptive to any department, to be honest, about what we want them to change, but particularly the library because we're limited. That's all I'm going to say. I think in any request we make of any department, it's going to be the latter. It's going to be this is a percentage of this is a dollar amount. I think though that it is up to us to be able to explain the community why we're making the suggestion and to say to prevent to present an example of we have too many dump trucks, or this or that is not out of bounds at all because we're not directing anybody to do it. We're simply pointing out that there is discrepancy in X or Y, or we're not doing enough of something over here. And that's why we want to spend more money. No disagreement whatsoever on their authority to decide how to, but it is perfectly valid I think to identify the reasons. Simply saying I think we should ask for X doesn't really explain anybody what the whole picture is. Why did you get to that point? Got to that point because of X, Y and Z. But yes, we need to be very careful about that boundary. Absolutely. So, so why don't you go ahead and continue with what you were once you had started. So I'm ready to move off of the library. Can I just because I because at some point we do have to make. Decision on what we asked the library to do. So I would like to say that I would like to ask the library to come back with a level set budget. Okay, I want it. Great. I want to hear everything Andrew has to say. Because I think all of us are going to weigh the whole thing. When we come back. So. You offered you asked some questions you went Andrew finish what you're doing will come back to the library will come back to everything that suggested. My other 1 is 1 of the things that I know Amber you've mentioned quite a bit about is about revenue. 1 of the things that our recreation department does very well is having a fee for service program and a fee for service model. And I'm curious as to how many of the administrative positions that we have an e JRP admin so things like. The customer service specialist I may be having the name wrong or title wrong. The finance specialist those types of positions that support the enterprise funds and support the fee for service programs. Are those also paid for through those program funds or is it purely admin. And if it is purely admin, I'd like to see a switch so that we can be taking advantage of the fact that we're subsidizing those program costs. I'd like to be able to change that that model to align more with like the waste treatment plant.  So, are you done. Amber, did you have anything you wanted to add to this. Not right this second. Okay. Sure. So, can we, I'm, we haven't talked a lot about the unrestricted fund balance, which is quite low. And I'm curious what the target is. I was trying to find the policy on our website. I couldn't find it. So. I would love that to be called out in some way. That's a side note, but. I'm more, I'm more concerned, frankly, about the unrestricted fund balance. As opposed to the capital balance because capital, we can move projects around if we have to. But the unrestricted fund balance, if it's not sufficient and something happens, we're kind of screwed. So, one, a question I would have is. What's the target? What's the target, but also what can we do to move towards it in a predictable way so that like the next several years. We know what's going in there until we get to the goal of the target. And then maintain it going forward. There was something in something you just distributed. Gina. They am trying to find stuff. Um, page 62 of the budget packet for tonight's meeting is that financial fact sheet that I created. Um, and about center of the page, it talks about the unassigned fund balance, the percent we're at and what our current policy is and what the GFOA best practices. We're at 7.8% of our total budget. That's the fund balance. Yes. And we want to be up to 15. Yeah. Okay. And right. And creating a budget that's. Picked apart. The lack of a better term right now because it's getting late. Really removes any possibility that that will grow. Right. So, therefore it's even more important for us to figure out a way forward on this. And. The confusing part for me, Regina was. We can't. Say every year or can we say every year we want to put X amount. Or does it, it's only allowed to be left over that wasn't spent for whatever reason, either group insurance that didn't turn out to be that expensive enough supplies that didn't get purchased. That sort of thing, right? We can't earmark. So fund balance. Yeah, Jess can probably speak to this a little bit better than myself, but essentially the.  You know, we're trying to get the point is to set up a accurate and good budget. And I think typically over time, you end up building up this dollar amount. That's a more helpfu