So I have been excited to discuss this in this toolbox format because it's something that I realized a lot about myself in the way that I viewed romantic relationships when we started the company over 10 plus years ago, the myths that I brought into my relationships, and sometimes the success and lack of success I've had in this area certainly colored my view on communication and having happy healthy romantic relationships in my life. And I think to kick things off, I definitely want to talk about some of those myths that I know that I bought into and many of our listeners have probably brought in and many of our listeners have probably bought into as well around finding that partner and finding someone in your life to share romantic relationship with. Now, if you've been a fan of this show for the last decade plus, you know when we started it, we were younger, very focused on dating success and being the most attractive version of ourselves and having plenty of options and that's probably why many of you found the show back in the day. And as I've grown as a person and of course as our clients have come to work with us, I think for the most part everyone's come in with this mindset of how can I have a healthy romantic relationship by not being someone I'm not being fake. And I think one of the biggest myths that we hear time and time again is that there's this perfect partner for us and that once you find that person, everything just falls into place. It's no work. There's no conflict. There's no drama. Naturally, all of your passions and pursuits align and it's just happiness. And as I've come to realize in my own career and life that that's not the case romantic relationships are like any relationship in your life. And there's going to be growth. There's going to be change and there's going to be a whole lot of communication that we want to talk about. So in preparation for this, we wanted to first just kick off by talking about some of these myths. And I know Michael, you have some opinions as well around the myths when it comes to romantic relationships. This is always so funny to see in core confidence when we have like 10 guys and girls come together and talk about what they want to achieve. And very often you see this pattern where I want a partner and once I'm successful in dating and I have someone I love and spent my life together, then everything is easy. And then the next person introduces Simo herself and say, yeah, I'm in a relationship and I'm struggling. And the other person said, what? I thought it's downhill from then on out, right? So the spelling, this myth that we all seem to have and we can go into why that is the case that once I have a partner where there's butterflies and these pink glasses and that person is just perfect. Then I'm made, right? Then it's downhill, then I can chill out, then I can be happy for the rest of my life. And what people will very often realize then is, well, now you have a partner and that's really good and healthy. But now you're playing a different game with different challenges where you need new things that you need to pay attention to. And it's not necessarily easy. And now instead of working on a challenge by your own, you work on that challenge with your partner together. So you have even more moving parts in there than before. And the first couple of months were amazing. So how come this suddenly becomes difficult? Like this should not be difficult, right? That's what a lot of people coming into a relationship and being super fulfilled in the first couple of weeks and months is like, why is this suddenly becoming difficult? Like what has changed? And this is the big myth that no, it's not downhill from, you know, when, when you guys like come together, move together or whatever, whatever it is that leads to that committed relationship. It's like, no, this is just another game that you need to play now. We see it in Hollywood, right? We see it in movies. That's probably the easiest one. The guy gets the girl and they live happily ever after and blah, blah, blah. If you believe that myth, and it's, isn't that pretty? Isn't it great? Wouldn't everything be so much better if that's the way the world works? Well, sure. But what happens when reality doesn't match up with what we've been bought and sold? Well, that has an impact on our own well being.  If we've been bought and sold a bill of goods that isn't reality, well, then what is the behaviors that we go into the next relationship with that protect ourselves, that then now hinder our relationships from blossoming? Absolutely. And I think a big part of this is that life is challenging. And those challenges come into your relationship, especially your romantic relationship. Both of you will face challenges and ups and downs. And you can handle those challenges, and sometimes you could run away from those challenges and not handle them appropriately. But however you do so is also how you're going to show up in that relationship with your romantic partner. And much of what we're going to talk about today is the patterns to recognize in ourselves and to recognize in our partner. And also, as we always talk about on the show, how to reach your full potential so that you show up fully for your partner and not put all the onus or challenge or impact on the other person to change or become this perfect person for you when we all know that we have flaws. And Michael, I know you touched on this earlier, but I really want to dig a little deeper because I think one of the big myths around lust and romance and getting really emotionally connected with someone in the beginning is you have this burst of vulnerability, you have this burst of great chemicals, and that honeymoon phase, as we like to call it, well, it wears off. And the science, I don't think is really clear on what that period is for each and every individual, but we've all been in those situations where it's red hot in the beginning and it's new, it's exciting, we're learning about this person, they're opening up to us. And then there's a little bit less of that and a little bit less of that. And if you get caught up in these Hollywood myths or these romance novels or what your parents shared with you about relationships, well, it's easy to feel like I'm doing something wrong. And with a plethora of options, it's easier to feel like, well, that perfect person is just the other side of this relationship. So maybe I should give up. Well, AJ, the word that you're describing is one that we've brought on the show before, and it's called limerence. And limerence is the mental state of profound romantic infatuation. It was defined in the 1970s by psychologist Dorothy Tenove. And to come back to this idea of where certain myths are perpetuated, well, we just discussed this in our X Factor program with some of the guys over this idea of online dating. And online dating want you to use their app. They want you to be in constant chase of the perfect match. They're going to perpetuate the idea of the perfect romantic relationship because that keeps you chasing for it. They're even going to tell you that limerence is the feeling of being in love. And that when that dries up, that you that the relationship has dried up. Now, what we're going to be discussing on this show is that why that's not the end of the ride. That's just the end of that part of the ride. And then a better relationship comes on if you have the tools to be able to cultivate that, which we're going to be doing today. But once again, not only do we have all these dating apps and how many are there now? I can't even keep track. And we've been a company that has tried to stay on top of that for as long as possible. It is just too out of control at this point. I don't even know how many. Look at the names. Tinder. What does Tinder do? Light of fire. We think of burning hot flame. Okay, Cupid. Oh, my angels fallen from the sky. Match. It's the perfect match based on the algorithm. So even their names proliferate this myth that the perfect person is just around the corner if I search hard enough. Exactly. They don't say, Hey, AJ, you got to change. Hey, Johnny, in order for you to find Cupid, you got to reach your full potential. Here's something in advertising. If you're finding, let's say a client, somebody to buy your services, you're basically looking for a needle and a haystack and marketing that is difficult. So what do they tell you in marketing to do? Use your marketing to make more needles, right? So let's talk about on a grand scale of marketing that these companies are trying to do. They're trying to get you to buy into a reality that the perfect match is out there if you just find it. And they're trying to get you to buy into a reality, which we discussed yesterday, which was called a swipe life, which is you're going to find your perfect match and then you have infinite amount of opportunity to go dating and taste the all the flavors of the rainbow until you find the perfect person. And don't worry about it because swipe life is fun. Swipe life is you having all this opportunity. And of course, we come to paradox of choice and why options are great when in reality, many options offer you plenty of anxiety because you're now torn with so many options. It's difficult for you to settle in. So once again, we're looking at a world that is being created around a myth that is difficult to get out of.  You see perfect lives of perfect people living perfect days with perfect romantic partners and working out in the most and they everyone looks amazing. And their workouts are awesome.  And when you see these people smiling, absolutely fit, it's like, where's that reality? No, the reality is that working out is difficult and it sucks, but you do it because you know that it makes you better. And then the reality of dating is that it is difficult. You're learning to live with somebody. You're learning to find out who they are and line up values that will allow you to grow together rather than growing apart because let's face it, when you meet somebody, you're meeting in an intersection of a trajectory of both of your lives. That doesn't mean that you're both moving in the same direction. That means that you have crossed paths. And then there needs to be a check of whether or not those paths are going into the same direction if possible. And if not, if you enjoy each other's company so much, then there is a discussion and work to try to change certain trajectories on a compromise on both sides so that you can grow together. We have two factors here working against us as humans, as homo sapiens, and we need to give ourselves some slack for that. The first thing we're battling is that we are the first generation to deal with this. We're the first generation that can take up the phone, starts wiping and find someone air quotes better. Our parents didn't deal with that. Our grandparents didn't deal with that.  Because for her, it was like, dude, there were three men in my village. I picked one and I made it work. And here you are, 25 years old while there's Tinder. Let me swipe again. My mom got divorced in the early 80s and it was like, you don't do that. That is not an option. That's not on the table. And now here we are, the first generation to figure this out. Why is this so hard? Well, because we're the first ones to figure it out. We're the first ones on the big ocean trying to navigate a completely different terrain. And the second reason that ties into that is just our biology and how our hormone system developed to make all of that stuff kick in and the butterflies and the pink glasses. And Helen Fisher, she wrote Why We Love, which is an amazing book. It's probably written for endocrinologists, like people are really working with hormones. I'm not going to go too deep into that. I find that whenever a lay person talks about hormones, they get 90% of the stuff wrong. But here's a simplified version. So our biology, like growing up, growing up, living as a hunter-gatherers for most of like human society. First thing is you need to find someone. So you go crazy, like everyone, right? Everyone works, everyone, just everyone works. Second stage is you actually find someone and your system goes into, okay, we need to make babies. Procreation, that's the name of the game. So that's when the pink glasses come on, right? Everything is perfect as long as you make babies. And then comes the third phase, which is, okay, now we have a kid. So let's get serious.  And of course, maybe in this, you know, 21st century, after three, four, five months of dating, there might not be a kid. Most likely there is no kid at that time, but our system still goes into that operating system and says, okay, it's been like three, four, five months. Let me slow down. Let me draw, let me down, regulate that lust and desire. And it's going to like the stronger pair bonding. And then I was like, what's happening here?  What, what happened? Well, guess what? You're, you know, the second pillar, that's the second thing you struggle against. You're, you struggle against the system that helped us procreate and raise children successfully for like hundreds of thousands of years. And 21st century, well, you know, it's kind of gotten a little bit boring.  So that's, that's what we're, we're going uphill here. We're going, you know, against the stream and we need to consciously work on that and be aware of that and give ourselves some slack. Like this is difficult. And we have very few people we can turn to, to, to ask for advice. And, and that's, that might be, that might be the biggest myth that we need to dispel here in this toolbox episode, because here's what happens when you look at couples getting married. So this is when you can tell they really take their relationship very, very serious, right? They know, they know that statistically 50% of marriages fail. They know this, they put rings on each other finger and they know it's a 50-50. And every single couple says, we will make this work because we love each other. Love will get us through. And the, the, the thing, however, is that it's not about love, like making a relationship work in the long term and create meaning and teamwork. It's not about love. It's about having the right skills to make it work. And such a big part of that is communication. And the way that we have been taught communication in relationships, certainly romantic, tends to be from our experience of our parents and the way that they communicated in their relationship. And I know for me, growing up in a divorced household, raised by a single father who got divorced in the 80s, I did not have a very good role model to base that communication off of. And in fact, a lot of the patterns in my life have been around withdrawing because my father did just that. When his relationship failed, he withdrew from future relationships. Why? Because his pattern was withdrawing from conflict. It was easier to be quiet. It was easier to pull away. And it's taken me years to realize that pattern in myself through the relationships and the way that I was showing up or not showing up and the way that I was struggling to communicate through conflict. Yeah, same here. My parents got divorced when I was three years old. I never had role models in terms of communication. And even now with my mom and my stepdad, they're probably not listening to the show, so I can say this. But communication is not always ideal.  So it's difficult to have like really good role models and learn like from scratch, how do you do this? And just to dispel a little bit of another myth as well there when you see like couples that have been married for 50 years and you're like, oh, they must have figured it out, right? They work together. And sometimes that's the case. But there's also an attachment dynamic, some very often in place there where you have someone who takes and someone who sacrifices. And that relationship also works for 60 years. It works and it looks really healthy on the outside. But it really isn't. So just saying that. So if you know someone who's been married for like 70 years and you're like, wow, it must be easy. No, maybe they just somehow, you know, figure it out and make it work. I'm sure a lot of people are like, well, this got really negative on relationships. But I wanted to set up that with the world that we're living in and a culture the way it is set up that you could see that the odds are stacked against you. And because of you're going to be influenced by a lot of myth around these relationships from all different sides and everyone trying to get your attention, everyone trying to get you to commit to their world view or their advertising or what they, how they would benefit if you were to think that there is a perfect person for me. So I wanted to just share that so that we understand what we're against. But I wanted to open it up to how we can create amazing, long lasting, loving relationships if we just understand and are exposed to great tools. Because no matter how much you love each other, and a lot of people think there's this idea of love will conquer all. Yeah, well, that's another myth as well. And Michael mentioned it earlier, but I want to hit home the point that it is, yes, love is great. Love is a great motivator for you to learn the correct tools so that you can create amazing, open, flourishing relationships. Well, the science is pretty clear. It's a coin flip if we don't do anything about it. Right. The odds are not in our favor. They're not against us. They're 50-50. If we walk into a relationship with someone based on lust, based on that initial phase and we try to commit to them, well, there's a 50-50 chance. So how do we improve that? Through science, through communication, through the right tools to improve ourselves. And I think that's a big last myth that I want to bust that you can go into a relationship and all you got to do is change someone else. And whether you're a guy or a girl listening, you see the flaws in the other person and you're like, well, I'm just going to change them. I'm committed to them and I'm going to work on them. And if I change them, then we have this beautiful relationship and I've made that mistake myself and I'm sure my partners have made that mistake in the past around me. And what we're talking about is let's take some agency and some responsibility for ourselves and let's develop the right tools as we improve and reach our potential to have that amazing fulfilling relationship that Hollywood has sold us because it doesn't have to be a dream and it doesn't have to be a myth if we actually use science to our advantage. And the first thing that I know we've talked a lot about on the show in the past and we're not going to go that deeply into it on this episode, we're huge fans of, is emotional bids and recognizing when your partner is trying to connect with you. Being someone who had never heard of that term before, wasn't really clear on what they were, that was pretty eye-opening for me in my communication. So we highly recommend you check out episodes 719 and 720 of this podcast a few years ago. We went deep into those signals in your communication with others and how to connect on a deeper way. Let's take it a step further around not changing our partner, but becoming curious about them so that we can explore together. When it comes to becoming curious about the partner, that is really the key. And this field in couples therapy, so we're not just throwing some self-help your way. This is digging deep into the psychology toolbox and research. And the gold standard that you really find there is called integrative behavior couple therapy. And this is really like cutting edge in that regard. And what this IBCT in short talks about are really three pillars. And the first one, and maybe the most counter-intuitive pillar, is you need to understand and accept that there are differences between the partners. That you and your partner are not on the same level of introversion, extroversion, adventure, spontaneity. And here's the kicker. You probably got together because you were different, because that was so exciting. So wow, what a rebel. What's with spontaneity? Wow. I'm amazed how good of a planner he or she is. And three months later, it's like, what's with all the spontaneity? This is really difficult for me to deal with, because now it's habituated. Now it's normal. Now it's like, what's with all the spontaneity all the time? So we can dig into specific techniques in just a bit, but to lay the groundwork with the principles. So you need to understand and accept that your partner is different. And let go of the idea that first you need to change him or her, and then it's going to be good, because that is not going to work, because your partner will have exactly the same plan. And that's what you're fighting all the time. The second is you need to improve how you interact with each other that strongly ties into this. And there are a lot of conversation skills and conflict management and so on that we talk a lot about on this show. So we might not have to go too deep into this. At this point, there are plenty of episodes out there that teach you this. And the third is to really highlight the positive that's happening in that relationship, because we have this negativity bias of nine to one. In a normal mind, it's nine to one. And that's a problem. That's a problem. If you spot all the, if you only ever notice or comment on the stuff that goes wrong, you have a bit of a problem. So being able to really shine that light of attention to, hey, we did really good there. Like the dinner we cook together, teamwork. And that is really the ability to create, to purposefully create that enjoyment together and that quality time together. I know that was a tough one for me. And the mindset that I had in the past was, well, I'm still here. I'm in this relationship. I'm committed. Is that not enough for you to see that I enjoyed the positives? But let me talk about the negatives. And it's so important. We've talked about this on previous episodes around giving feedback to others. It's so important that we highlight those positives and celebrate those positives openly, not just think about them, not just share a smile and make it seem so, but through touch, through actual words of appreciation and allowing each other to be grateful for all of those positives that are going on in the relationship. We know the negatives are on the horizon or they may be hitting you in your relationship right now. And you may be facing some difficulties inside of that relationship. But really sitting there and thinking about, well, what are all those positives and those positives should be something that are discussed frequently in your relationship, as Michael said, to strengthen it. And it's so interesting because we've heard the old adage opposites attract. And it's so exciting when you see someone who attacks problems in a different manner or plans in a different manner or has different pursuits that can open a whole new world of possibilities. But those opposites also lead us in points of stress and points of conflict to be highlighted and be held on to as a negative. And that's why I think it is so important again to face the fact that the positives and those positive emotions will wax and wane. But the more that we can discuss them, the more that we can share them and be open about them, the more that we can see them in each other. Yeah. And I think it's very important to understand that because your partner is different, doesn't mean they're worse, their approach is worse. Every one of us, we develop our own learning history, depending on the family we grew up in, the siblings we had, the friends that we had. And we develop over years a certain way of approaching problems. And some people might grow up in a family where problems are solved by shouting really loudly. And if you are the one who shouts the loudest and throws the most plates around, you win the argument. And then another one might have a group up in a family where everyone just sulk and goes in their room and slams the door. Now you bring the offspring from those two families together and one starts shouting and the other is like, what's with all the shouting? That's a problem. And so what you want to look at here is called the deep framework. So those are four factors where differences are going to really be important and you need to look out for them. So D stands for the differences that the partners have. They're really normal. One is more introverted. The other is a little bit more extroverted. One is more conscientious. The other is a little bit more chaotic. Neither one is good or bad. But it's the difference in and of itself that creates that problem and sitting together and talking about like where does this come from? Like how come that, I noticed that whenever we fight like you retreat, where is that coming from? And then you hear that story maybe that you know that maybe there was like really violent shouting happening and that person learned to retreat. And suddenly instead of seeing it as a flaw, it's like, oh, wow. Now I get it, right? Now I'm willing to, now that I understand where this is coming from, I'm willing to adapt a little bit and help my partner vocalize whatever is coming up. I know for myself and in my relationship currently with Amy that in those situations that learn behavior of retreating and getting quiet when there's a problem or a frustration being expressed by my partner and maybe not even fully wanting to deal with it. Well, her one asking me, I've recognized this in you. Where does this come from? And two, being honest with me about how that makes her feel when I do that has allowed me to work through that pattern in myself. So it's one thing to point out the flaw in someone else. And it's very easy to be like, you do this, you do that, you do this, you do that. But if we want to change and we want to grow together, it's also important to point out how it makes you feel when someone is behaving that way. And we've talked about this in boundaries episodes as well. And when you really care about someone and you realize that, wow, these behavior patterns that I have, well, I didn't even realize I had them. And they're having a negative impact on the person that I really care about and love and want to be with. Well, it gives you a stronger impetus to actually change to work to improve yourself. And we've been able to frankly do that with one another and share how her behaviors make me feel. And I think that's really important as we talk about communication throughout this episode. And I know we've talked a lot in the past about vulnerability and the levels of vulnerability. Well, these are the deeper vulnerabilities that many of us don't show with just friends or acquaintances or casual relationships. But these do come up in committed romantic relationships because we're spending so much time together. We're immersed in each other's lives. And I think for me, hearing that, hearing her being frank and honest and vulnerable enough with me around how those behaviors impact her emotionally was really key to me realizing, okay, I want to become a better partner and here's some ways that I can change and improve. Realizing that you're accepted for the way that you behave and gives you that freedom to actually maybe even change, maybe be a little bit louder, maybe be a little bit more vulnerable, maybe be a little bit more assertive, right? Because now you know that there's this understanding and the space to do this. The E and so deep framework, the first E are emotional sensitivities. So some people might need that routine, right? Others might be spontaneous. I am a total control freak when it comes to traveling. And former girlfriends always were like, oh, we just go, you know, to the airport and we'll just go somewhere. And that makes me freak out because I need to have like everything, I need to know like what I'm having for breakfast on day number five. Like I need to know that stuff, right? And both are okay. We both have our reasons, maybe past girlfriends were, you know, traveled with parents or family and they were always told like, you know, we go to Italy, we go to California and so on. And for me, like traveling with a wheelchair is like, I need to have everything planned because only then can I relax. When I realized my room is not on the third floor and I have no idea of how I get in there, right? So both again, make sense, but you need to understand where they are coming from so you can develop that empathy. And that routine versus spontaneity, it's so key when we can share, hey, you know, this is something that I really value, but I'm open and willing to try something that you really value while we're on vacation or while we're taking some time away. And it's a balance there, right? It's being open to that new experience and understanding how valuable that spontaneity is to your partner. Yeah, exactly. So we have another E, we have another E in the deep framework. And, and that's external stress, because that's just going to come, right? It's not there's some stress between the partners. But there's also like all the additional stuff that's happening out there, especially, you know, in 2021, or as how I like to call it like 2020 plus with the pandemic with homeschooling, right? There's a lot of external stress that that also comes in there. That external stress, it's important that we're all aware of it. And we understand and give each other an opportunity with dealing with that stress a little bit more space. I think many of us are very tied and close to our own stress and those external stresses and how they impact us. And it can be difficult for us to see it in someone else if they handle that stress differently. So for me, that stress shuts me down. For Amy, that stress needs to be handled immediately and typically through exercise. So for me, it's like, you know what, I just want to unplug. I just want to throw on the PS five play a little FIFA, just completely get my mind unplugged from this. And for Amy, it's, I just want to run as fast as I can on the treadmill. Both are okay. And if there is that external stress calling it out, Hey, this sounds really stressful. What, what is it that you need to help work through the stress or how do you feel is the best way for you to process this and encourage that in your partner? And I know the other thing is, you know, I'm very solution oriented. I, I like knowing like, okay, there's a stress and here are the three steps to manage the stress. And for Amy, it's like, well, I just want to feel heard. I want to process the emotions. I don't need solutions and solutions right now actually work against me dealing with that stress appropriately. And we didn't just magically understand that about each other, but we started to recognize patterns in how each other deal with the stress and said, Hey, you know, is there a better way for me to show up for you right now and asking those questions instead of just defaulting to the way that you handle stress, because as we've been talking about these differences are always present in the way that we've been raised and wired through nature. Hey, was that the question you used? How can I show up to help you better? Yeah. Everyone listening like please take note, right? This is such a powerful question to ask. I think it's important to remember that the only way that we have to make sense of the world is through our senses, which always points puts us in the middle of everything. So it's easy as a default to look at things while through your own lens. And it's not to say that you are self centered as at fault. It's that you have to condition and work to understand other points of view and other lenses because without that knowledge, you're only you're doomed to view the world from your own seat. And David Foster Wallace had a commencement speech. There's really famous. It's called water. And you can find it on YouTube. And there's many different points that he's trying to make to the young generation who are who are about to go off on their own into the world to make a name for themselves. And he talks about the hardship of it. And he talks about being young, but also he talks about empathy and its importance to understanding how the world works.  And it's not only that what your significant other is going through when it comes to external forces that they're stressed out about, as well as the the the relational experiences. But but others as well, because if you can have an understanding that everyone is lives are so different than yours, then you're going to be open to hearing what's going on. And not only open, you're going to be curious to want to know what is going on with others. And that curiosity is what's going to open the door, which is going to prompt you to begin asking the questions so you can get that information. This second E is honestly, I think the most important. And many of our members in our X factor accelerator come to us after a romantic failure or dissolving of a romantic relationship, whether it's divorce or just a committed relationship. And many of them will say it's because of the external stress, we couldn't manage all of the external stress. So if you're in a happy comfortable relationship right now, and you're you're checking these boxes, you're like, guys, this is great. Paying attention to these external stressors that are completely out of your control and your partner's control and how you can better show up in those moments. Or if they're happening to you, how you can better deal with them. And the way you deal with them, how it impacts your partner being aware of that. Many of us don't get that awareness until the divorce papers are in front of us. And all of a sudden like, well, wow, I had no idea with all this stress, right? I love coming home from work and just bitching about my boss and moaning about my coworker and going on and on about how tough life is and not realizing the toll that's taking on our relationship and how that's making your partner feel and how maybe your partner needs to see you taking some agency in that stress. These are really important conversations and what we go deep into an X factor around, hey, we have to be open and honest about ourselves to reach our full potential. It's not just about, well, you know, how can I manage the other person and what's going on in their life? I'm getting goosebumps. You're telling that story because it brought to mind someone who went through core confidence and told me later on, he said, I now know why my marriage failed. I now know why I got divorced. Because no one knows this stuff. I wish we could teach something like that in school, even though every third grade is like, wow, you're telling me that. But this is important stuff to know and especially now where so many external stresses come up and then instead of it's us versus the stress, it's my stress versus your stress. And that's not helping. That's not helping. So the P in deep framework, AJ, you already hinted at this. These are patterns of communication. So how do you show up when something goes wrong? How do you show up if you want something and be curious on how you do it? And then also be curious about how your partner does it. Like if there's stress, do you retreat? Do you attack? Do you blow up? Do you jump into PlayStation 5? Do you jump into the gym?  What is that pattern? Because only when you recognize what's really happening, then you can work with that and then you can communicate it. But if you're not aware of it to begin with, well, good luck trying to work around it. And that's the fun part about it. Amy knows when I put on the headset and I log in to play some PlayStation, maybe in the middle of a work day for a quick game. Oh, it's AJ decompressing. Or if Amy goes outside to hit the treadmill in the car port, it's, oh, okay, Amy is burning off some steam. And when you recognize that in your partner, you also then have an opportunity to better show up for that. Right? So that's what we're getting to. We're getting a deeper understanding of ourselves, but also a deeper understanding of the people we care about and love. I think it's important to always set up like, this is why we're in this mess, right? This is not how you get out of it. But here's how you got in. So four skills you need to learn in order to keep the romance alive. First one goes right back to those patterns of communication. Like that's those patterns of behavior and watching out for how you approach and how you retreat. How do you not, how does your partner and how would you like them to?  Because AJ, you just said you're then in FIFA for, I don't know why you would ever go into, but you know, it's your PS5, you can do what you want.  But I think that many people listening to that, they've never thought about, like they've never connected the dots. Like this is what I'm doing when, when this happens. And you need to be aware of that, because at one point you need to be able to communicate that with your partner and say, hey, look, I've noticed that whenever I'm stressed out, I do this. So I just want you to know the reason I'm meditating for half an hour is not because, you know, I don't want to talk to you. It's my way of unwinding and recentering. Well, I want to encourage all of our listeners, if they want to retreat with me on PS5, they could find me AJ Harbinger, add me as a friend and challenge me in FIFA. Good retreat together.  That's well deserved now. Bring it. That point is so valid though, because it's given me new perspective around how not only do I process stress in my retreat pattern, but also has allowed me to see that there are other ways to handle it. That may also be helpful, right? So that was wired into me from the way I was raised with my dad and watching his patterns, but through experience and being in relationships and looking at these patterns and others. And I know Johnny started this conversation with, you know, how we got excited about all of this is just understanding human interaction and behavior and patterns. Like once you start to recognize this pattern in yourself and you start to date a few different people and get experiences with their patterns, you start to recognize like, okay, now I understand why this person is behaving in that way. And we then don't have to make it about ourselves, right? I don't have to take Amy going to run on the treadmill is like, oh, she must be mad at AJ. Oh, what did I do wrong? Like, and all that mental gymnastics that we do sometimes when we see these behaviors and others, when we have a deeper level of understanding about ourselves and about our partner. Well, we tend not to then self-inscribe these issues to ourselves and it makes for a much more peaceful relationship.  So that's why I'm smiling the entire time. Anyway, back. So number two, and this is where this is where it gets really simple to implement. You need to have time in your calendar where you sit together and you talk about stuff because most people will come into a situation where there's external stress or internal stress. And then there's this clash. And then there's the explosion or the retreat. And that is never helpful because you're acting in the heat of the moment with when all the emotions are boiling up. And you need to know that maybe every Wednesday evening, there's this one hour where you sit together with music in the background and a cup of tea. And you just go like, Hey, here are a couple of things that went really well. And here are a couple of things I think we can we need to talk about and figure out and having that that marked in your calendar gives you the accountability. And you know, well, you know, this is going to happen. I might just as well say something or, you know, listen. And it also gives you the time to mentally prepare because, you know, us introverts, very, very logical thinking, very, very much like step by step lists and bullet lists and everything like this is the time that we need in order to make a good argument. So that hour needs to be blocked out. And it doesn't have to be a confrontation hour. This is, Hey, we're going to drink some tea together, eat our favorite chocolate and just discuss how the week went for us with the lockdown and being in a situation, spending a ton of time indoors together dealing with these external stresses with work from home and everything else. A major change that I mean, I did in our relationship was just going hikes together here in Los Angeles. And I found that hiking, something about walking side by side and not being directly facing one another. And I shared this in an X factor session. And one of our clients also started implementing this in his life that sharing communication while walking and being side by side and even talking about issues within our relationship or frustrations we have with one another. It really has lowered the stress level, the emotional response level and allowed us to communicate on a lot of deep topics that, you know, we hadn't even communicated. This is year seven of our relationship. And we've now carved out time every single weekend for that. We wake up in the morning and we go on hikes in the morning every single Saturday and Sunday. And I know I talked in the past about this on the show, having a standing date night where we know that we're committed to time together to be open to communicate to listen to one another. Because let's be honest, if we rail on social media, we talk about technology, we all know what happens when we get home from work or we get home from exercise or whatever else is going on. Or maybe we're just home from work already and we pick up our device and we're half listening and we're half on social media and we're half checking our email and we're half. And for us, the ground rule has been, you know, hiking, there's no phone out at sushi date nights on Friday, there's no phone out. And that's created the space to have this communication in a more frank way and just the opportunity to be more present with one another. It's an on demand culture. And you can't have on demand relationships because you're not dealing with a computer. You are dealing with a human being who has emotions that they have to contend with in order to communicate. When you're dealing with asynchronous communication or coding or computer language, it is on demand. You program something in it does something, it spits out whatever information or acts in certain manner. However, with human beings, we don't have that. I don't I wouldn't even want to call it a luxury because I because it's it's interfering with these with with our relationships. An easy example of this is my dad as and being younger, my dad would come into my room and he would say, oh, I heard something happened at school today or something happened with so and so today. Would you like to talk about it and any teenager being put in that position is going to say, no, I wouldn't want to talk about it. And so that is an example on demand communication. Listen, I just got off work and heard about this. I need you to talk about it. Well, I'm not I don't want to talk about it because I'm a teenager and I don't talk to my dad about things and I'll handle it myself. However, if my dad said, hey, listen, I'm working on something I got to go to Radio Shack. I need you to go along with me for the ride. Fine, I'll I'll go. So now we're in this in the van and we're heading to the mall and there's this quiet time and that space has put me in a position then to after about 15 minutes. Guess what? I'm spilling my guts about everything that happened that week to my dad. Why? Because there's a natural innate need to connect with my father. But I certainly don't want to do it on his dime on his watch when he's ready. It's got to be when I'm ready. Why? Well, one, I'm a teenager. I'm being difficult. But the other is there's a lot of emotions going on with a teenager that they have to work through in order to be able to communicate any sort of feeling and just to be understood. And that's not to say that that's not happening as we get older. It's just it's a little bit more it's easily easier to maintain. But we still have to work through those emotions. And we just can't come home from work and ask our spouse or our significant other to tell me what's going on. Because they might not have their thoughts collected or they might not be in an emotional space to be able to open up.  So by creating the space, getting rid of the phone, putting on some enhancement for the situation that you're setting up to relax everybody. Well, guess what? After about 15 minutes, everyone starts dumping their souls out onto the table. Because they wanted to connect the whole time. But you just can't hit a button and say, Hey, I got 10 minutes, spill it. It's not going to work. And if we continue to think that we can bring on demand culture into our relationships, we're going to find that we have an on demand divorce settlement paper in front of us. I'm so glad you picked up on that, Johnny, because that was a question that was going through my mind as AHA was was talking that there might be listeners right now that are thinking, yeah, okay, so I'm ready, but my partner is never going to go go through with that. Like he or she will not sit down and do this. Now, I'm willing and eager to do this, but he or she might not. And I'm curious what you guys think the solution here would be. What what I've done in the past is I was the one leading and not leading by saying, Ha, I know exactly where you screwed up. But by saying, Hey, first and foremost, like this thing you did, I really appreciated it. And by the way, this one thing I did, I kind of screwed up and I'm sorry, let me know how I can do this better in the future. So I'm starting by being an example, hopefully a positive one, if not through what I did, but at least through me sharing of like, I'm, I'm opening that door and I'm stepping through first, hoping that the other person follows. And even if the other person is still a little bit timid about following, they're still getting feedback, because what I just told them is some positive reinforcement. Hey, I really liked how you cleaned up after me in the kitchen when I had to rush out for for work. And I really appreciate that and I don't take it for granted. You know, that's that's already feedback. That's changing, reinforcing that behavior in the other person. But I'm curious to think to hear what you guys are thinking about this. That exact strategy is what we use. And it's interesting because upcoming guests were excited to have on Dr. Therese Houston talked about. And this idea of the compliment sandwich in terms of giving feedback, well, scientifically speaking at Harvard, they did research on this and starting with words of appreciation first, allow the negative feedback to be processed and actually retained. So if we just launch into you're doing this wrong, you're doing that wrong, you're doing this wrong, we naturally go to the defensive. But we always love to hear it. We're doing right. So you start with what that person is doing right and you are frank about it. Then what I love Michael is you actually take responsibility for something you did wrong. So then you make it acceptable to have done something wrong and own up to it and want to improve on it. And again, asking like, how, how could I be a better partner? How could I show up more in this situation?  And with I, when I withdrew, that probably caused you to be more frustrated with me. And I take ownership of that now. It's a behavior pattern in myself that I've recognized I'm still trying to work on. Thank you so much for being patient with me. The other thing I would say, it's really important. Hey, there are times when your partner is just not ready for feedback. And also asking like, can I give you some feedback on this? Would you like to hear my perspective on it? Right. That at least gives them an opportunity to say, not now, AJ, like I'm struggling right now and I can't deal with you adding on another layer of all the things I'm doing wrong at home. That's truly okay as well. So I love that idea and that that back and forth and that ability to communicate openly and create the space as Johnny was saying to do so. The third one we've talked a little bit about, we've danced around, but I think it's really, really, really important to talk about how these things made you feel instead of blaming the other person for their behaviors, faults and adequacies, frustrations. If all we do is point blame in a relationship and all we're doing is throwing what the other partner needs to work on and we're never really bringing it back to how it impacted us and how it impacted us emotionally. Well, there's really no energy there or interest or reason for the other person to change. They just feel completely defensive and hurt and you don't really present another option or another pathway of like, in those situations, I would actually appreciate if you just raise your voice to AJ, let it out, yell back.  And I was like, whoa, holy cow, that's eye opening. I'm listening. I'm hearing everything. I don't know how to process it. But maybe the other person needs you to get emotional too, to see that response, to show that you care. This is at the basis of every misunderstanding out there when people talk that we assume how we feel was the other person's intention. So what AJ just said made me angry. Therefore, it was AJ's intention to make me angry. This is what's going on, like subconsciously for all of us, all the time, and it's wrong. Because if you're trying to guess what the other person's intention was, most likely, you're freaking wrong. And so instead of saying, hey, AJ, you know that you made me angry and it's your fault, like this is already an argument that does not work. It doesn't work.  Now, you don't, AJ doesn't get to say, no, that's not true. Because it is like, AJ doesn't get to tell me how I feel, right? You can't, you could say, well, that was not my intention. I didn't mean to do that. But you can't say, no, Michael, that's not true. You don't feel angry.  You can't. You can't. And this makes this so vulnerable and powerful because it breaks that loop. It breaks that loop of it was your intention all along. Now, we are huge fans of listening. In fact, we did an entire implementation session around this exact thing in our X Factor accelerator as part of our monthly implementation sessions. And in this conversation workshop, we dug deep into listening. Many of us say, oh, I'm such a great listener. In fact, I can multitask while listening. I can be scrolling on Instagram and checking my email and I'm getting everything. So if that's you, fast forward. No, wait, don't fast forward through this part. You probably still need to listen. So let's walk through these levels of listening so we can all improve our listening skill, Michael. Oh, sorry. Sorry, what did you say? I wasn't really listening. I was swiping on Tinder. No. Okay, so here are your levels. And in the workshop that we did, I actually had this on a slide where on one end there was like Darth Vader and the other that was Yoda. So let's start at the Darth Vader end at the lowest level, the lowest quality of listening. And this is you listen to reject.  This is why. And yeah, I'm still listening, but the intent is kind of, you know, or the dark side of the force. If you're watching this on our YouTube channel, it was when Johnny was re-enacting his arms crossed with his dad moment, you know, that listening to reject. I don't care about what you have to say. I'm here, but you could say it and I'm rejecting it immediately. We default to that when we're in tense, pressure filled, stressful situations and sometime that's with our partner too. But if we're listening to reject, well, that's not a healthy way to communicate. Well, let's upgrade this just a little bit. And now you're listening to give information. This is when people go like when they like vocalize or have their hand like up a little bit, it's like, this is like, okay, just, just stop, just stop because I have something to say, right? And we've all been in conversations where the other person just waits for you to make a nanosecond of a pause so they can jump in and interrupt you and give you that better information they have, right? That's, that's pseudo listening. That's not making a connection. Next is, and this is, this is where we get towards the middle ground already. So now you're listening to receive information.   But, but that is the idea.  But it's still, it's very much on, it's just one level removed from what's next. And that's, you listen to understand the other person's content. And content means the pure data, the pure data that, that comes out of someone's mouth.  Now the pure content is Michael likes tomato sandwiches, right? But if you actually, is there such a thing as a tomato sandwich, I just made that up. Yeah, this is an artifact of the improv, improv workshop we did. But now you know that if you listen to the content, well, Michael likes tomato sandwiches, whatever that might be. And, but apparently if you listen a little bit further, which is the next step, listen to understand the other person's emotion. Now you're like, okay, I think he doesn't like tomato sandwiches. I think that was, I think it was being, you know, a little bit negative about that. So, and, and when you start to listen to understand the other person's emotion, now you're in the realm of the emotional bits we were touching upon a little bit earlier. And this is, this is almost the gold standard.  And this is, this is important enough to repeat, listen to understand the other person with all that's going on and all that's coming into what they're saying. I like equating this because that, and that improv tomato sandwich example is perfect for this because when we, we start to listen to really understand the other person, we're not just thinking about, oh, well, I don't like tomato sandwiches. We're starting to realize, okay, Michael is, is vegan. And he's making conscious choices around his food. And I want to get to know, well, what are Michael's core values around being vegan? Is it environmentally based? Is it health based? You know, that is a deeper level of understanding than just saying, okay, next time I have Michael over, I got to have tomatoes in the refrigerator. But many of us stop at those early levels. We just exchange data, and we're on to the next thing. We're back to our phones. But the people who are really good at building deep, long lasting relationships, they search for that deeper meaning those core values, those beliefs, those morals that the other person is sharing through all this data that's being exchanged. That's how we show up for someone. And outside of a relationship, like listening to the other person, you practice that skill, you'll probably not run out of things to say. Probably not. Because just me saying, and by the way, no, please note the, the satiric way I said this, right, don't set me tomatoes and sandwich slices. I really like tomato sandwiches. And now we become curious about the entire thing. Like, there's so many favorite tomatoes. Why? When did you first eat this? What was the best tomatoes? We have a really weird example that we picked here. I should have thought this through a little bit more. But you dig into that and really become curious about that. And something that we just, this weekend, we discussed in core confidence that anxiety and curiosity, they can't really coexist. It's a zero sum game. You can be really anxious about what is that person going to, how is that person going to respond if I say this and that? That's anxiety. Or you could be curious and say, I wonder how that person is going to react when I approach them. And I say, hey, you like ham or something like, I'm just going to be curious about that. And you'll see that anxiety is displaced by that curiosity and bringing that into a conversation with your partner, where it's not, oh, I just hope I don't say anything wrong. But it's this, I'm curious to find out what I did wrong and how I can do this better the next time. And this curiosity comes in. And it doesn't make room for anxiety in there anymore. In a world where everyone is asking for your attention and not only are they asking for your attention, they can make money off of your attention. Well, then your focus becomes a superpower because it's the one thing that everybody wants from you. And so if you are able to direct it to where you need it to go and where you want to excel, well, then that is, that's the superpower, right? So think about how anxiety plays with curiosity. Where does anxiety force your attention? Inside. Inside. Where does curiosity force your attention? Outside and present. And whatever, whatever it is that you're curious about. So if you want to develop this, this asset that you have, that everybody is willing to put all of their resources in to get, well, don't you think that you should regard it in such high, or see it in such high regard? And if you need to be able to look at it and respect it with such high regard, then it is the one thing that if used properly will get you whatever it is that you're looking for. And to go back to a point that you made about people who feel that they're not very good with conversation, well, it's because their attention, their focus is in the wrong place. And as you said, if you want to get good at conversation, you want to get good at small talk, you want to get good at holding court, you have to get good at listening because all the answers, all the stories, all the emotions that you need to create, captivate and connect are in the other person. And notice how we've just, I don't know if our listeners picked up on that, but we've just gone full circle. We started by saying, usually we try to change to the other person. And we've arrived at, be curious about what's going on both inside of you and the other person. And suddenly those differences are, well, there's still a little bit of a problem, but they're not the problem. They're just something you have to work with. And the moment you understand them, that's when it's no longer you versus me, but it's us versus the external stress. And then comes, there comes the tag team and everyone has their strength and their spontaneity or their planning and the introversion, extroversion, all of that comes together through curiosity.


Welcome and thanks for joining us for another episode of the nonprofit show. If you have joined us today, you can see that we are ready for you. So we are bringing best practices in the nerdiest way that we know how. So welcome back and thanks for joining us. Michael new gear you are phenomenal day three. Thanks for showing up and nerding out again. Today's conversation is nonprofit cybersecurity best practices. And again back, you know with our best friend here Michael new gear. Julia Patrick joins me Julia is the CEO of the American nonprofit Academy and thanks to her we have these wonderful platforms and episodes to discuss these conversations. I'm Jared ransom your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven group and really blessed to serve alongside Julia as the co host of the nonprofit show. And if it weren't for our presenting sponsors we would not be able to have so much fun. Thank you to our sponsors that invest in these conversations invest in the American nonprofit Academy and truly in the sector at large we are so grateful to have your commitment and your investment again in these conversations so thank you to our presenting sponsors and back to our guests today welcome back Michael I feel like you know you're just you're a steady now and and I don't know what we're going to do tomorrow. I'll be here daily yeah I came home and I was excited to wake up and start back on to this.  It's great so you've been in Minnesota the last two days different cities within Minnesota. And now you're back in your home state or where you reside in Colorado so so glad to have you back Michael and tell us a little bit about what we're going to cover today because again 30 dedicated minutes to cybersecurity. I think today we're going to recap some of the trends that we talked about, but I want to I want to take those trends and tie them into the best practices that that realistically every organization should do. Not just nonprofits and what those best practices are right that they can seem overwhelming most people are probably like I'm really scared after the last two days. What do I what do I have to do yeah raise raise your hand you're scared. And so right what what can be done what are some quick wins that organizations can focus on. And then what are some of the standards that they need to focus on moving forward. Okay, so you know that's like one of the things I was talking about with somebody yesterday was that you scared the hell out of me, but at the same time, I felt like you were giving me knowledge in a roadmap for navigating it. And so, even though it's really, it's been tough to hear some of this. I feel like there is a roadmap and there is a path to helping us all not become so vulnerable so the first thing I think we want to ask you or like what are cybersecurity trends. And then, how do you, you know plan ahead for these things. Yeah, from a best practices perspective in the industry the big trends have been focused on, as I stated yesterday this visibility understanding what's happening within your environment. And where you where your weaknesses lie if you understand those you understand what you have to protect. Then you have a great idea of what to what to plan for moving moving ahead what what to budget for what software and consulting you might need to to drive better security posture in your organization. I love that I love the way that you phrase that the assessment piece is really what hit me so again if this is your first episode with Michael there are two previous ones that you will definitely want to check out. So this is where I learned of the visibility and the assessment and really identifying where are we currently you know what what systems are working what systems do we need to improve and really identifying that that baseline of visibility. That's been probably my biggest one of my biggest takeaways there's been a lot but that's one of my biggest. As you talk about going on your family vacation next year and you're going to take a road trip right, you know your destination, right, is in this case it's security and being secure but you can't get there if you don't know where you're going to leave from so assessing your current state and where you are helps build that those directions to move forward and that I think is, I can drive that home all day I probably talk for the next 30 minutes just about building that current state understanding what what risks you have and the lining those right because every security risk has often been seen as this, this other type of risk but it realistically is the business is risk right it plays into all the risks that we're planning for now. So let's expand a little bit on that you mentioned this briefly on one of the two previous episodes about the risk factor and purchasing insurance, not just as part of the budgeting but just, can you talk about that briefly. Yeah, so insurance is right I'm not going to say that you have to buy insurance or you shouldn't buy you should or shouldn't buy it but insurance is a failsafe right we all want to have some form of life insurance or health insurance because it is a stop gap. So the best practices you have to do with best for your organization but buying insurance years ago was really easy it was an afterthought it was added on to liability now it is a it is a very very much a consideration for what your security posture is and what you need to budget for forward and so we've seen a lot of, a lot of clients with denials coming back from their cyber insurers because they don't have the best practices that they need in place and those best practices are, you know, they range organization organization but they want you to have their authentication.  They want to make sure that you have policies and plans in place to, to set the standards of cybersecurity and plan for an incident, you know, a cyber attack if one were to happen. And if those things aren't in place we're either seeing denials or a lot higher premium similar to health insurance right if there are considerations for your health that might lead to, you know, determine in the near future. Health insurance will raise your premium or even deny you health insurance same concept now we're starting to see that emerge in this industry. Wow. Okay, so that like brings it home. I mean because it makes it even more incumbent upon our organizations to be doing these assessments and really figuring out a path. Well seriously because I feel like, you know, it's also that identity theft. Oh that won't happen to me, cybersecurity that won't happen to us, you know, again what Julia said in a previous show is we're really small like why would someone come to maybe an organization under a million and not a nationally federated nonprofit that is a multi million and therefore, you know, their gain could be could be bigger or greater. But this is no one's immune to cybersecurity. And it is opportunistic right it's that's what attackers are looking to do and hackers are looking to do is where is there an easy opportunity for me to gain even a little bit of access or a little bit of money right just enough like if I can get five or six small businesses, because they haven't been proactive in their cybersecurity, rather than trying to go after a much larger organization that might have some of these proactive measures in place. It's a lot easier and easy is easy is what people are focused on from a from a cyber tech perspective. Sure, sure because I think is exactly what Jared just said it's the other. It's going to be somebody else. Okay, so then let's get down to the nuts and bolts of this. How much is this going to cost us upfront I know you you gave us a number and I don't know if I can recall it correctly that average cyber attack cost is in the United States it's 8.64 million dollars or it was in the in 2020 right we're still compiling that data this year. We think it's going to rise because we've seen a lot of large ransomware cases this year. But 8.64 in the United States worldwide it's about 3.9 million dollars per breach. That being said right if you were an attacker and you knew that that you were going to get double the amount of money would you not target the United States and so as having a presence in the United States we are automatically a bigger target for cyber attacks. So, I don't know the, we know there's 1.8 million nonprofits in the US and I don't know their average size but I feel like, you know, a 3.8 million dollar cybersecurity threat would really yes wipe out the organization and as you had said previously there are countless ending situations and there are several nonprofits right that are even under a million dollars but a 3.8 million dollar threat that is severe and that is so frightening it really is. Yeah, and you have to remember that those statistics were built on businesses in the small business sector and all the way up to the Fortune 100 and so obviously the average breaks down and so 8.64 million for a small, a much smaller nonprofit or small business is obviously going to be a lot less but still detrimental from a cost perspective. So how do we prepare for this again I had mentioned you know information technology is something I bring up in strategic planning and I know that this is part of conversations around the boardroom. So looking ahead into next year, how do we truly budget for the needs of cybersecurity. Yeah, so yesterday I gave a statistic from several years ago right the cybersecurity was three to 5% of the it budget realistically today it's about 10 to 15% even rising to about 20% of the actual it budget and focusing on what that is and right is that percentage is it focusing on tools and protection or is it focused on the holistic cybersecurity mission because that risk again as we just talked about is business risk and so as cyber insurance is starting to ask more detailed questions about your posture and raising your rates depending on how secure they think you are and how much of a risk you are, understanding that that is not necessarily a cybersecurity cost that is a business cost moving forward that that insurance cost. So, that's why I say it might even be 20% at this point of your total overall it spend and so planning planning for this and driving that culture as we talked about yesterday building a culture that emphasizes security for every individual within the organization making sure that that it is a focus. So, moving forward for every individual in that condition as well is going to help. Now, Michael I want you to get out your crystal ball okay I don't know if you travel without in Minnesota, but if it's there in Colorado go ahead and get it out as Julia says dusted off. I'm sure come on if you if you have those glasses you have to have that yeah. Looking ahead, if there was a big jump from 5% to almost 20% should we forecast going forward in our budget so if we're creating you know a three to five year strategic plan. Should we prepare for an increase of this budget. I told you, right I mean I mentioned this the other day right 20 years ago if you didn't have a website you're going to be successful 10 years ago if you didn't have a social media presence today. My prediction is if you don't have a cybersecurity strategy, you're not going to be successful moving forward and so should you plan for an increase in the cybersecurity budget I absolutely think so. I think that is all dependent on assessing your, your current risks where your risks actually are and what you're actually doing to accept those mitigate those transfer those risks within your organization and so that that could lead to an increase in budget I think it would make more sense to have that assessment build out that roadmap and that strategy, so that you knew what to budget for and plan on in some pretty decent round numbers. And so, I, you mentioned this yesterday but I want to have you dig in just a little bit before we get on to our next question. And that is, I'm all the things that I'm hearing you say and just in these two now three days that we've been the folks that I've engaged with our viewers have come back really concerned about how little they understand about this. One of the comments I've had is, we can't do this ourselves we didn't even know about this until we started hearing your guest. So, so pain is a picture is how we can get these assessments done because this isn't something I think we can do internally with the notepad and asking questions. It always, I would never. I would never ask an organization to do like to do just a self assessment I think having an expert come in and outside third party, assessing the environment from their perspective and when the best practices and the trends that they're seeing in me is always going to be my recommendation because they're going to have an understanding of the threat landscape, not just for your industry but for your geographic location for a lot of different perspectives on that and so having, you know, a trusted partner and do something like an assessment or an audit of your IT controls to make sure that they align with best practices, and if they don't, building out that that strategy and that roadmap to help you align over the next one two three five years. It's not a one and done is what I hear you saying. No, the journey not a destination that's exactly right. Oh gosh, I feel like a prerequisite is to ask the person. Have you in your past been a heartless hacker. Okay, now you're qualified because we need that expertise. And clearly that is not the route to take you know we don't want to invite the hacker into our dining room table. And that's the ethical perspective with it right I want to emphasize the ethical hacking perspective right that's what we, we, we have from essentially what a penetration test is an ethical hacker coming in and saying, I know how a hacker will come at your environment. And so we will test it the same way that any other hacker will, following these frameworks and these methodologies and then that delivers and understanding a much clearer understanding of where you are most vulnerable. Okay, so we have had a lot of questions come in and this is kind of an interesting thing. I want to ask you before we move on to our next question. What role do you think the new government cyber crime agency GCA is going to play in the cyber insurance industry. Because you know it is the world series. Yes. What role do I think the government cyber crime agency is going to play. I think it's going to develop the standards that every organization should probably follow right there are already standards out there. Right. The National Institute of Standards and Technologies NIST has a cybersecurity framework that you can align with and there are maturity models to that. There's the cybersecurity maturity model which is also a federally run program, or federally designed program for the DoD so that you can align with maturing your cybersecurity posture. And then there's the Center for Internet Security actually has the top 18 things that you should focus on to secure your environment. And following all of those right when my team goes in and does an assessment we align with all three of those right and making sure that we're putting forth the best practices that help you align with any of those frameworks. And there are a handful of other frameworks as well but I think that that's probably what is going to come out of that is a more detailed framework for security and also some rules around maybe when mulling over whether or not it should be legal to pay ransom right. It's already illegal to some extent to fund terrorist groups and so if you get a ransomware attack. You have to be very, very sure that if you pay that it is not funding a terrorist group because OFAC is the federal department that will actually follow up with you on whether or not is it is a legitimate payment to a hacker and not a terrorist organization. Okay, now hair on fire for a third day. I don't have much hair left. I think I need a defibrillator. Okay, let's go let's go. Let's go best practices here. Okay, yeah. Okay, so now I want to get into this and Jared and I are so curious about this. How do we educate our nonprofits to care about this and you talked about culture. I mean, education. What does this look like and how do we immediately start getting our teams to work on this idea. Right, so I talked about the top down approach right culture has to be driven from the top down. And so there's an emphasis on on cybersecurity right making sure that it is an important aspect that everybody needs to focus on for the mission and driving the organization that helps provide that that that caring aspect from every person in the organization. I think earlier we were talking about the difference between training and education training is vitally important right it's usually walking through pre recorded materials or reading to understand where you're at. I think education is really that sounding board that everybody needs to start becoming more of an expert in this right not everybody has to be a cyber security expert but if we are educating people and providing feedback and questions and answers. In that education it is it is way more valuable than just a training right coupling the two together helps build individual cyber security knowledge it's not a. It's not really an option to not pay attention to it right now right as we've already talked about the last two and a half days we've all been scared. And right, learning about it is step one and learning about what to do about it is step two right. Fascinating I, I can see what you said bleeding over into how we look at our organizations on the whole. You know how we treat personal development and this almost as a personal development issue ultimately. And yet, I can't think of one organization or person that I've met, and the last forever. It's actually brought this concept to their whole team, it seems like it's another problem it's accounting problem it's, you know, HR problem it's it's something else. Somebody else is responsible for it let's let them be responsible for it. And that's right time back into everybody has a responsibility when it comes to cybersecurity. When you're watching data within your organization you get emails from your organization you have physical access to something you have a responsibility to be that protection. Part of that protection at least moving forward and getting education on how to do that right, just saying that you're responsible for it is not enough because there's probably going to be a thousand questions coming out. And so making sure that you are doing education alongside of that training. Hopefully, everybody listening on here has a million and one questions and if they want they can reach out to me or there's a trusted advisor somebody that they know that they can talk to about that and get those answers. I'm curious. My two main will houses and consultancy work with nonprofits is fundraising and strategy. So when I'm listening to these conversations. And I'm thinking, are funders playing a role in funding this need, you know and I'm curious if you're aware Michael of any funders that do focus specifically around the cybersecurity and it enhancement need. So I think the answer is yes I do see that in in every industry not in just a nonprofit right, whether it is a client or a large donor or even small donors right I pay attention to where where my, my donations go because I want to make sure that my donors are safe with it as well. Right and specifically in the nonprofit realm there is this concept of anonymity right now everybody wants to know. Not everybody wants people to know that they're a donor or a funder of this and so maintaining the anonymity is highly important. And if you don't trust the organization security to move forward then you might not be a funder much longer. So we get questions from a lot of different clients, asking asking us to come in and do an assessment and do a vulnerability assessment or penetration tests so that they can provide that information to a potential client or potential funder to, to provide them the this piece of mind that says hey we know that we don't have any security weaknesses on our on our network and, and here's here's the third party attestation for that right here's how you can see that we are secure, providing that is is a business plan moving forward now. To what you said it's not just about being proactive, it's about when an attack does happen, how we act upon that attack right so even sharing that attack plan, perhaps, I think is just as important as as putting these other elements in place to be prepared and to do whatever we need to do to mitigate the attack, but to realize that when and if an attack does happen, we're ready for that to and here's the plan. Exactly and it's my father always told me failing the plan is planning to fail right if you don't have anything defining what you're supposed to do moving forward then you're doing everything off the cuff in there that inevitably leads to mistakes and people running around and bumping into each other so. Right, right. Well funders, if you're listening, I hope. I hope that you're putting cybersecurity as one of the items that you will find, you know, typically in the past it's been only program program dollars and that of course has been a big, big shift in change to talk about personnel and to talk about program evaluation and a little bit of everything so cyber security I hope is a trend that funders will start to back so that we can ensure the safety of our constituencies and our communities in which we serve that's that's my soapbox. Well, it's a good one and I mean if you think about all of the Silicon Valley based philanthropy that's leaking out across this country, the vast amounts of wealth that have been made from the tech sector. This should be something that we see coming about and, you know, almost becoming a part of capacity building. I think so. You know we really need more Michaels in our space. Yeah, ethical hackers of you as you've called them. And that is, it's just so important because I've sat here flabbergasted the last two shows and today to like this is Greek to me it is so unfamiliar in it's really scary and I wish I had counted how many times I've used that word or the word, because it really is a space that I don't think many of us are familiar with. Yeah. And, and as I say on almost every call that I'm on there's always somebody willing to help cyber security is one of the largest communities out there right it's not a competition against different businesses it's really a community, sharing the intelligence that we have between everybody because we want to see protection for all organizations we want to see a lowering in cyber crime. Moving forward. Well this has been remarkable and it's hard to believe that our time is almost up before we let you go and end this three day series which has really stirred up so many more questions for me. What would you say to somebody in terms of a leader within an organization is the best practice to start learning or where do you get this information as opposed to just general media. Is there a place where you know leaders of nonprofits should be checking in. There are, I'll give two resources today and the first one is stay safe online.org. And that is not just for leaders of businesses but also personal and personal understanding of cybersecurity that stay safe online.org hosts cybersecurity awareness month which is October. Happy cybersecurity awareness month. There are resources out there right now stay safe online host that it is run by a joint collaborate the collaborative effort between a couple federal agencies, one of which being CISA which is the cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency. They also have a plethora of resources for businesses to to help them understand what what to do next from a cybersecurity perspective. It's overwhelming. My phone is always available that there are 100 consultants out there that are able to talk to you and I'm happy to answer any questions that I can like I said, we are a community and we're here to uplift all businesses so that we can put an end to cyber crime. Wow well you're an amazing representative of this whole. I hate to use word industry but this thought leadership and it's been really amazing to have you on. I think we need to really be thinking more and more about this it hasn't been part of our dialogue. Not just on the nonprofit show but across, you know the nonprofit sector and so it has been amazing here's Michael's information. Michael, I did not put your phone number on here, but I put on your email and so brother you're going to be getting emails emails are probably better anyway right and my voice is starting to go out right now. Well, day three of a national broadcast you have brought so much wisdom value and expertise. I Bailey is very lucky to have you we are very lucky to have this partnership with I Bailey, and truly to know that I Bailey is here for our nonprofit sector across the nation. I'm so grateful this has been a wonderful three day series. Again Michael thank you so much for coming and nerding out with us. It's been. Yes, right up right on. It's been super nerdy and a lot of fun, I have learned so much. And again, very grateful to have your partnership with I Bailey through these last three days so if you missed it. And you missed the previous two days or you want to go back and watch any of the episodes I know I will. Please do check them out Julia Patrick CEO of the American nonprofit Academy.  And we are so grateful to have the continued support and investment from these presenting sponsors that you can see right here on the show many of these Julia. I think they've been with us about, you know, day one. Yeah, day one, so day one. Yeah. Hey everybody, you know this has been amazing. And I'm really appreciative that we got this glimpse into something that we need to be talking about. And I want to remind everybody as we end this episode to stay well. So you can do well. Thank you so much Michael it's been wonderful thank you Jared we'll see you back here tomorrow.


Hello, I'm Stuart Bell, president of the University of Alabama. Today we pay tribute to the bravery, courage and determination of Vivian Malone and James Hood, two African-American students who moved past the infamous stand in the schoolhouse door to become students here at the University of Alabama 57 years ago. June 11, 1963 at the schoolhouse door is a day we will never forget. As a university, it is important that we acknowledge our history, including recognition of events of which we're not proud. That day also served as a turning point for the first steps towards a new University of Alabama, one whose core values have grown to embody diversity, respect, equity, a culture of inclusivity. Ms. Malone went on to become the university's first black graduate and Mr. Hood later returned to the capstone to earn his PhD. Today we celebrate their valor and transformational impact they've had on this University. Much progress has been made, but our nation, our state and our beloved institution continue to struggle with many of the same issues from nearly six decades ago. Earlier this week, the University of Alabama Board of Trustees, Chancellor St. John and I took an important step with the removal and relocation of Confederate blacks from the Quad and Gorgias Library. Today our Division of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion will host a conversation entitled Reflections on the Stand. These conversations and meaningful actions will continue. Teaching and learning about the impact of racism that has suppressed and marginalized our black students, colleagues, friends and communities is an important part of our mission. As President, I pledge that we will continue to identify and promote ways to ensure our campus is safe, respectful and welcoming to every member of our campus community and to support those who are particular targets of hate and racism. This is a defining moment for our country and our University. I'm thankful for our community, colleagues from the Black Faculty Staff Association, the Student Government Association, our faculty, staff, alumni, supporters and many others who are coming together to raise awareness and make a difference. I know we will emerge stronger, wiser and more unified than ever before. At the University of Alabama we are still tied together.


If you're just joining us, Ash Barty, press conference, officially done. We don't know what she's doing next, but we've had a lot of nice, she's had a lot of nice messages from a lot of players over the last 24 hours since announcing her retirement. Let's go have a read of some of the messages from players in tennis, out of tennis, all around the world, men, women, everyone. So here we go. She's had a lot of tweets, a lot of messages starting with Serena Williams. She came out and said, Ash Barty, I can't lie. I was sad to read your decision, but also happy for your new chapter. Always your fan, close up and afar, sending all my love. So that's from Serena, the goat. Annie Murray came out and said, happy for Ash Barty. Got her for tennis. What a player. Then you have Petra Gavitova, one of her rivals. Ash, I have no words. Actually, you are showing your true class, leaving tennis in this beautiful way. I am so happy I could share the court with you. Tennis would never be the same without you. I admire you as a player and a person wishing you only the best. Plushkova, another person that she had a lot of fierce rivalry with. Obviously played her at Wimbledon as well last year. Congrats on an incredible career, Ash. It was a privilege to share a court with you, wishing you all the best in your next chapter. Ash Barty, you will be missed. Simone Halle, very close with Ash Barty. Ash, what can I say? You know I have tears, right? My friend, I will miss you on tour. You were different and special. And we shared so many amazing moments. What's next for you? Grand Slam champion in golf? Be happy and enjoy your life to the max, Simone. Dylan Allcock, a goat in his own right. He has come out and said, Ash Barty, amazing tennis player and even better person, a champion in every sense of the word. Very proud of you, mate. Alina Monfise, she came out and said, nothing but respect for you, Barty. All the best in your retirement. Congratulations on your distinguished career. Coco Goff, last person to get a set off Ash Barty, came out and said, incredible career and person. Congrats on everything you've accomplished so far and everything you will accomplish in this next chapter. Martina Navarrova, one of the greatest to ever do it, says, dear Ash, you are leaving the tennis and sports world quite speechless and full of praise at the same time. Enjoy this chapter of your life after tennis. We will miss you. You'll smile. You'll beautiful game. Be happy champ. The Hall of Fame is waiting. Ain't that the truth? Hall of Fame is definitely waiting for Barty. Angelique Kerber came out and said, you will be missed Ash Barty. You gave all your heart to our sport and inspired so many along your journey. You're stepping away from tennis as a true champion and on your own terms, simply following your own path as you always have. Keep chasing your dreams. I know you will. And then the last message of support or the last message of congratulations in retirement from one of the greatest, Billie Jean King. She comes out and says, Australia has a rich history in tennis and Ash Barty has represented it so well. I have no doubt she will continue to inspire and make a positive difference in the world. I wish her all the best in this next chapter of her life. So there you go, Ash Barty. We are gonna, I'm gonna personally miss you because some of the best moments of this channel have involved your matches and it's gonna be sad having her not around so I can't lose my mind and go crazy. But you brought us a lot of joy, especially as an Aussie. And I don't know if there's Aussies in the chat. You guys will feel this too. As an Australian, she bought us a Wimbledon. She bought us an Australian Open. Some things that some of us have never seen Aussies do. So it's been an absolute pleasure watching her. It's sad to see her go, but I know she's gonna move. She's got to do something else. I know she's got to play another sport. I have no doubt she's gonna do another sport. So we wish her all the best. And she's been one of the greatest champions that Australia's ever had.


Hello everyone, I just wanted to let you know how excited I am to be joining you next week. I hope you will come out and meet me. We're going to have an ice cream social on July 16th at 2 p.m. at the Atwood Mall. I hope you come out and and say hello. Have a great 4th of July holiday and see you soon. Go Huskies!