Good morning. Hi everybody. I'm Jamie Wittenberg. I'm the Assistant Dean for Research and Innovation Strategies at the University of Colorado Boulder Libraries. Joined here by my illustrious colleagues. John Shadaki, he's the director of UC3 at the California Digital Library and Christy Holmes, who directs the Medical Library at Northwestern University and is an associate dean in the medical school there. I don't think I need to make a case to this group of people that data citation matters, but you're here, and I just love a captive audience, so I can't resist. There are a lot of library folks here, and I think I could reach out to any library represented here and expect with some degree of confidence that if I requested a list of every article a researcher at CU Boulder published in the last ten years, one of your librarians, any of your public service staff probably could help me find it. But if I made that same request about the underlying data, we would be in trouble. We don't have the uptake and there isn't really a way to access metadata about all the data that are out there that our researchers are producing. If we're not citing it, we're not capturing it, and we're not capturing the totality of metadata related to use and reuse. This matters because data citation provides evidence that supports the reproducibility of the research. It enables other researchers to locate and access research data more easily. It enables reuse and innovation, and it gives credit to our authors. But it also allows libraries to develop a record of the research published at our institutions, and it establishes provenance for the work we're doing to advance that research. Here's some evidence from 2021 about the disparity between data sets in the landscape. These are published data sets and articles that cite them. So this is a slide with numbers that data site pulled in 2021. Yes, the landscape has changed. No, it's not comprehensive and definitive. I'm using these numbers to convince you that there is a disparity between the data sets that are out there and the articles that they support. It doesn't represent everything. It represents what we can find, right? So that top number shows the published data sets that are declared by repositories to data set data site. So what that means is that your repository and author deposits a data set with you issues a DOI and all of that information goes back to our central infrastructure data site. That third row there are the data citations declared by publishers to cross-ref through references. So that's 7,629 number. That's the number in 2021 of data sets that articles are sending back. So the number of data sets that are actually referenced in the articles. So, you know, even though this isn't comprehensive, we're looking at five and a half million versus 7,000 and some change. So a really big disparity here. What this tells me is that there are millions of published data sets that are citable, but the number of these that are declared is very low. When we talk about trying to change this, a lot of the time what we're talking about are leveraging various incentives and regulations to influence research or behavior, right? So colloquially, a lot of the time in the space, we call these carrots and sticks. I have been calling these carrots and sticks for 10 years. So this isn't a criticism of calling these carrots and sticks, if that's what you're doing. Like many folks in the community are, as you can see on my slide. And this isn't even a criticism of a carrot and stick approach or a sort of, you know, incentive and regulation approach to data citation and advancing data citation. Even though our title does call for a feast upon fire of carrots and sticks, that was just a trick to get you to show up today. We actually have moved the needle on this over the last 10 years, and the incentives and the regulations do matter, especially for data sharing. So when we're talking about the incentives, a lot of the time we're talking about research integrity, right? So you've all heard this before. It facilitates validation of the underlying evidence and makes research more rigorous when we're citing it. There's a citation advantage. It promotes collaboration. There are increasingly calls for tenure and promotion committees to use secondary data as evidence of researcher impact. Researchers can access benefits from their university like the institutional repositories that you have or free storage, as I like to call it. The sticks are usually compliance related. So funders require data management plans. The convention in academia is that we cite each other's work. So another sort of research integrity case when it comes to the stick. Last year's OSTP Nelson memo mandates data sharing for federally funded research. And there are compliance requirements at institutions when it comes to data retention and disposition. But let's return to the disparities. So the space between the data that are out there and the articles that should be citing those data. Carrots and sticks have done a pretty good job of moving the conversation and an adequate job at influencing the behavior. But it isn't enough. It's not comprehensive. And I don't think it will be in another 10 years at this pace, especially when it comes to data citation rather than data sharing the carrots and sticks. They don't really work. So what if we as libraries funders and infrastructure providers and probably a couple of other people could just take a step back from this binary and approach citation differently. Take the burden off of researcher behavior or editorial oversight when it comes to influence and use machine learning technology to harvest references to data sets, even if they're not formal data citations that you would find in the references section of an article. What if we could harvest those and turn them into citations, building a comprehensive corpus that represents all of the relationships between articles and the underlying data sets that are associated with them. Well, we did do this and I am going to turn it over to John Chidoki to talk about how. Thanks. So how many people here have heard of Make Data Count? So we did a really great job of doing marketing at CNI and other events. So Make Data Count is a community led group. We are just a bunch of interested people in the world of data metrics who have come together for the past eight years to look at these issues and look at the tensions that exist in our communities that have created the lock of either closed metrics or lack of information and lack of sources like Jamie was referring to. We have really the goal of Make Data Count is to not just build solutions and to find approaches to some of these issues, but also to advocate and really move towards a space where we have truly open and audible responsible sources of information for data metrics that can then contextualize and incentivize research. But this is a journey, right? One of the things that we talk about a lot within the Make Data Count community is that we are very nervous that the community will go too fast because as we just heard, the source information up until now really hasn't been there for really contextualized data metrics information to be available to the community. And so we want to make sure that we're very deliberate and understand where the state of the art is in each stage and really bring the community along and build information and build contextualized responsible metrics together. And we want to do this in the open. We want to avoid the lockdown of impact factor or h-index kind of approaches where the math behind there isn't really understood or the traceability isn't really understood. And so we've done this through advocating kind of three big things, and I'm going to jump into the citation corpus, but real quick, the kind of approaches that we've taken within Make Data Count is coming up with common normalized approaches to tracking usage information, so views and downloads, as well as looking at the current practice of data citation, as Jamie was mentioning, and figuring out what are better approaches and best approaches for both publishers and repositories and how they affect researchers. But we know that data citation is something that is not only a challenge for us as a community, as was laid out, but it's also something that researchers also value. In surveys that we've done over the tenure of Make Data Count, over and over, researchers not only say that they value it, they say it is the top way that they value or think of showing value of their research and fellow's research. But we have a challenge. Where are the data citations? So we have challenges where there are people challenge and culture challenges. These can be researchers themselves not being incentivized to not only share their data, but cite data. We also have challenges with technologies. Many of us are sophisticated in this space enough to know that we always can blame the publishers, right? The publishers don't track it. If they track it, they don't send it. If they send it, they don't send it right. And then we can't find it and we end up with 7,000 out of 5 million. These are the stories in these conversations. They end up being conversations where we have scapegoats and they are in many ways technologies, right? But the problems that we are talking about when we bring up these challenges are well understood. We know where the roadblocks are. We know where the red lights are. We understand that if we just did things better and perfect that the information would flow. But that doesn't change the fact that we also have built an ecosystem that is very complicated. Even in the open space where we work and we think and make data count movement, there's just tons of different projects out there that are working on similar things. And so one of the issues that we have is not only trying to come up with a better approach and figure out how to manage the information, but also to do it together. So the project that Jamie was alluding to is really trying to address these challenges. The challenges of culture change, the challenge of technologies and the challenge of the ecosystem that we've built. And it's called the Global Data Citation Corpus. It is a welcome trust funded project coupled with Make Data Count. So Make Data Count as a long living change movement is here for the long haul. And the project that we are currently partnering with WelcomeOn is specifically on this data citation issue. And it's in collaboration with the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative in a very unique way because of their ability to have publisher agreements that offer full text mining and the conceptual power to do a lot of the machine learning algorithms that we'll be discussing. We also are working very closely with Europe PMC to bring in not only DOI information, but also accession numbers and other types of identifiers. So, I mean, you don't have to, you can kind of imagine what the workflows would be for this type of a project. You know, we are still very much interested in promoting best practices through traditional workflows of publishers and repositories submitting metadata. But we also want to move forward and build a corpus of information that can be used for contextualizing research and incentivizing the sharing of research. So this diagram shows kind of the approach that we're taking on building this. We are in the first phase of building the prototype. We have worked very closely with Datasite and Crossref and also with the CZI mind information from across published content. And really looking to think of inside of this prototype, how do we define what a dataset is, really understanding what a citation is, what the difference is between citations and mentions, and looking at leveraging machine learning to improve the algorithms over time, extracting information and growing that number from 7,000 to over 10 million, and looking at how we can not only have links of information between papers and datasets, but also ensure that there's a link back to the repository so that there's access to the actual data. And so this is something that is currently available. The video is just a simple animation kind of. But if you go to the URL that's on the slide there, you'll be able to play around with some of the data. We're planning on doing a formal launch and an announcement in January, working with building matricians on taking the information that we've already extracted to start doing contextualized projects. And there are a lot of ways for each of you to get involved. And for that, I will pass it on to Kristi. Okay, great. So I think I get to talk about the most fun aspect of this project, which is that it's community oriented. And I think everyone who's working on this initiative recognizes that nothing is possible if we don't work together. And so that's libraries, that is infrastructure providers, publishers, people who use and think about data in meaningful ways. And so it really does require that we're all coming together. So in this slide you can see we've identified a few of our key stakeholders. So the usual suspects, researchers, institutions, funders and the research ecosystem. But I think libraries are particularly well poised to think about not just these kind of traditional ways that we're thinking about people who are partnering in this area and take it to the next level. So libraries really do serve as connective tissue. So I'm going to bring in my medical campus perspective, right? So libraries really are the connective tissue here. So they're helping to support all of those key traditional stakeholders in meaningful ways, understanding how they can plug in to these activities, understanding the context, and what it means for this data citation corpus to live and thrive in a meaningful way so that we really do tip the scale, tip that balance over to actually being able to make data count. So we're not just working with these infrastructure providers, I think, and traditional stakeholders. I think we're also coming to the table in meaningful ways across the spectrum. So we're looking at not just different kinds of domains or different kinds of roles that are outside of those more traditional stakeholder roles, but we're also thinking about this in our libraries, on our campuses, in our consortia, in the bigger scholarly ecosystem. So I think, you know, building on the role that we have in terms of bringing people together, facilitating great work and collaboration, this really is an outstanding opportunity for libraries.  We're more than our papers, we're more than just these single outputs. The influence and impact that they have on their research domain is really the full complement of research objects, and research data is an important part of that. Okay, so the community. So how can you stay informed and get involved? There are a few different ways to do that. So certainly we've got some links here. There's a project website where you can learn more about the project. We also have a listserv that you can sign up for to receive regular updates. As John mentioned, it's a very exciting time on the project. We've got a lot of things that are coming out. Certainly there will be the formal launch of the corpus initiative in January and, you know, regular communications and activities through the program. And then we also set up a Zenodo community for make data accounts. So all of these research outputs, these slides, any kind of like one pager types of things that are created through the duration of the project will be available openly in that Zenodo community. So we want to try and work in the open every way possible. There are also some key ways that you can get involved. So, you know, community isn't just this throw away comment like, oh yeah, the community is important. No, the community is actually very important. So, you know, and I think libraries play an important role in this aspect. So not only are we able to bring to the table, understand user experience, understand specific contexts and motivations, I think we can also drive information back into the project. So a really good, I think a really good example of that one type of data that is not in the corpus. I would love to see clinical trials data, right? And so those are aspects that I think that we can also inform and just start that conversation in meaningful ways. I would encourage everyone to take the tools out for a test drive. So John demonstrated that really nice little animation of the dashboard and we encourage you to play with that and provide feedback. And then please do also, we invite you. We're really excited to connect with various people in the community through make data account events. So there will be a make data account summit this fall. And so sign up for the list service so that you get the information about that. And then there is also a paper coming out in March 2024. The Harvard data science review has a special issue coming out called democratizing data, data as a public asset. And there will be a paper about this initiative in that special issue. So what else can you do? Well, there are adjacent and related activities that I think we can all invest in and really help to take that conversation to the next level. One of the most recent ones that was just announced a couple of weeks ago is this joint statement on research data. So it was developed by STM, data site and Crossref. And this statement calls for best practices with respect to data sharing and data citation. They've done a really beautiful job of communicating these best practices. There's nothing controversial, but a lot to get excited about. And so I really encourage everyone to take a look, have these conversations on your campuses, really engage the different roles and the different responsibilities on your campus to kind of understand how this ecosystem is changing and involving into a really bright and wonderful space. So with that, I just want to point out we are, of course, grateful to the tremendous support from Welcome Trust, to the partnership with CZI and Emble EBI for that data corpus. I also want to point out a lot of the work that we're talking about today, there are lots of different applications. So one of the applications that both John and I are involved with is this Generalist Repository Ecosystem Initiative that's funded by the NIH Office of Data Science Strategy. We're also thinking about how do we leverage this tremendous effort and think about data metrics in a meaningful way for generalist repositories. So it's a fabulous time to be in data, and I think there's some really outstanding things that are happening. So the contact information is there, and with that we'll open it up for questions. Hi, Talay Alon from the World Bank. Kudos on the project, it's very exciting and the future looks bright. The project as it is constructed is very much enmeshed with Crossref. The question is, are there plans to expand it to other DOI registrars, citation services, equivalent services? The question was, is there a plan to expand the sources? So one of the designs of the corpus actually is to allow for us to aggregate from sources that not only we are creating but also the community is creating. So we know that there have been similar projects and similar approaches and also a lot of cleanup work that have happened across the community globally. We also know there are challenges with the approach that we're taking in the sense that it's only a certain number of published articles that we're able to look at. And so we really are part of the plan is advocacy to the community on looking for sources that can help complement what we're doing. The corpus itself is intended and designed to be able to aggregate from multiple sources. So we're not specifically working with Crossref per se right now on the machine learning process. That's actually more of through publisher agreements that CZI has negotiated. So while we do partner with Crossref and we are friends and we work on a lot of analysis. The machine learning itself is not I just wanted to clarify it's not specifically happening with Crossref per se. Thank you. I'll add that if you go to our website you can take a look at our advisory group. We have representation from a lot of different sectors. We have publishers. We have infrastructure providers. We have repository managers. We have libraries. And one of the first questions that we asked as we started to have these conversations in our advisory group meetings was does it scale? What happens when we need to include a broader range of sources in the corpus? So our design I think is very intentional in that we're in the pilot early stages right now. And we would love to hear from folks in the community who are testing our new tools in our dashboard about what you would like to see in terms of expanded scope. But that has always been top of mind since our initial conversations. And I think it's a matter of, you know, execution, feasibility and expansion. Thanks. This is Peter Leonard from Stanford Libraries. Great presentation. Thanks so much. I was curious if the machine learning model weights are something you guys might be interested in sharing or perhaps already doing so. Yeah, actually it is something that is already available and it's open. We've been working with CZI. Some of you may remember there was a project called Meta before the rebranding of Facebook to Meta. There was a project called Meta.org. And so many of the algorithms that we're working on came from that project and that's kind of when we say CZI that's what we're referring to is that Meta team within CZI. And so their work that they've done on extracting mentions of software and data has been open and something that we were auditing when we were looking for partners to help us with this. And so that's definitely something that we think of when we were talking about working in the open is to ensure that not only the results of the work is made available through open data dumps and through dashboards but also that the algorithms themselves are available. And I think that's really core to the mission of Make Data Count as an initiative and a project and an organization is this idea that if we are not transparent about how we are creating our fomenting metrics when it comes to data citation, then we can't have trust, validation, rigor when we're looking at the citations themselves and it erodes the usefulness and the value of those citations. So as an initiative, that's something that's very top of mind for us. Yeah. Hi. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Oh, thank you. Hi, I'm Sarah. I'm from Well Cornell Medicine. It's an awesome initiative. I work at the Wood Library just to give some context to my question. I really love the idea. My question is usually when I think about data citation, I think about data reuse. And for data reuse, you need to think about metadata. So I wanted to ask you if this is in the scope of this initiative to extract metadata associated to the data set. And if so, what do you have done so far? And what are your plans? Yeah. Sure. So I think you really do make an important point, which is that that metadata is important. So it helps to provide context. So not only can it be a tool in terms of helping to make things discoverable or helping to call things out. It really does help to drive that contextual perspective. One such aspect that I'm particularly interested in is subject area. So when we look at classification and indexing of publications, there are various schema that organize and present information according to these different subject areas. But that is one output and one type of output. So when we're looking at data, you know, data really are at that core, but they're used in different ways. They're applied in different contexts. And so how do you understand what that full complement looks like? What is that? You know, it's a bouquet of context, right, in terms of how we're using data sets. So one of the things that I will share that we've looked at just locally is that the way that data are used and cited can tell an interesting story. So there are some data citations that really are about reinforcing kind of best practices or standards or they're used for comparison or validation. There are other data citations which actually help to translate knowledge to the next step so that you can see more beyond the generation of knowledge. It's the application or the outcomes from that knowledge being applied. So I think, you know, and that's just one aspect of the metadata. But certainly like we've talked in our comments today, everything is very open and this is a very eager and aspirational group. So we want it all. Yeah. And we want it to be available for everyone. Yeah. And I think that the initial scans that we're doing are looking specifically for DOIs and session numbers. So in that sense, with our partnership with DataSite Crossref and with EBI, we're able to extract a minimum viable metadata record for each of the connections. We were talking about aggregating other sources from each of you who have sources. Please get in touch. We would love to start to bring those together on the kind of logo soup that was up there of all the different open projects, the Curtin Open Knowledge Institute, Koki. We've been working with them on bringing what they've been able to collect and looking at their metadata records to ensure that it meets that MVP. And also with the Open Citations group that's based in Bologna. They also were working very closely with them on ensuring that anything that comes into the corpus has that same minimum viable metadata. Very interesting. One just quick following up question. Regarding metadata, since you mentioned that you have some metadata extracted, do you have anything to standardize those metadata? Because like data is very diverse, right? You have different type. How would you deal with that? Yeah, I think without getting into all the details, I mean, we've really been trying to standardize to a very small set. And most of it being that it's available through links out to get more in depth from the main sources. Great. Thank you so much. I think we're at time. So everyone, thank you so much. Please don't hesitate to get in contact with the program or with any of us and we'll be delighted to make any connections. Thank you for joining us.


Hi there, I am Andriano, I am representing a group of researchers working on a project back at Mbai Levaldo School of Dentistry at the University of São Paulo, along with the Wikimovement, the São Paulo Research Foundation, a project that generously found our research. This project is an introduction to audiology in Brazilian Portuguese, presented as a massive open online course on Wikipedia. So let's check it out. Wikipedia is an open and free platform designed to make possible teaching and learning in spite of the broader Wikimedia system, which is seamlessly connected to several projects, such as Wikipedia. Audiology content on Wikimedia platform has been consistently explained since the adoption of Wikimedia assignments in educational activities, besides its online global campaigns, such as Wikifer World here in day. A network of Brazilian researchers are producing their course materials, based on guidelines for healthy communication, developed by the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, CDC. The technological backend will structure it from a new university framework, proposed in the complex Slandoh University. It is an interface of JavaScript, NOAA, HTML, and CSS files. The MOOC is composed of lessons, unities, and quizzes. The structure is presented in an index file named Mockindex. Mockindex copies the structure information of the course, including sections, titles, and summaries. Currently, three modules of hate were completed. Peripheral auditory system, cycle acoustics applied to hearing and geometry. Around that, they show off an open course on the introductory on geometry towards the promotion of the heal health, and different contents can be explored.


And welcome to your daily Barnes takeout, your daily serving of art. I'm Carl Walsh. I'm a post-doctoral fellow in the Department of Research, Interpretation, and Education here at the Barnes, and today I wanted to revisit the American Southwest through this case of Pueblo and Navajo objects, which is in the lower lobby at the Barnes. And some of you may have seen some of the previous takeouts I did on Native American art in the collection, and know that Barnes became interested in a lot of these objects through his visits to the Southwest in the early 1930s. And today I wanted to have a look at one object in particular, which is this large storage jar, which is on the top shelf of this case. So this is quite a large pot. It would be actually quite difficult in cumbersome to handle by just one person. It's got this big round body and which a large base which tapers up to a much smaller neck and mouth, which is good for storage because it helps to keep out pests from your grain and things that you're storing in there. And because of its size, it would have had actually quite a complex making process. And these types of pots are traditionally made from local clay, which is then mixed with a temper and water. And these are made with a technique that's called coiling, where basically you roll a coil of clay and you stack them on top of each other. And then when you've got kind of a basic shape to it, you then use the hands and tools to help thin and smooth out the walls of the vessel. And this means that you can create really nice, smooth, but also thin walls. And these vessels traditionally are quite thin, but they're still sturdy as well so they can still act for storage quite nicely. And when you've shaped the walls of the vessel and you have its form all sorted, what then what was traditionally done is that you get a polished stone maybe from a creek bed or a river bed, and you rub it against the surface. And this creates a really nice, smooth and shiny surface that you can then add a slip to. And a slip is basically a mixture of water, clay, and sometimes colored pigments. And these are put, this is basically put on by hand onto the vessel. And when it dries, it creates the main field of color on the body of the pot. So in this case of the pot that we're looking at, it has a nice cream kind of tan color and slip that's been used on it. So once the slip is applied, you then let it dry and then you can paint on it. And often the Pueblo painters used a brush that was made out of a stock of a yucca plant. And you can chew the ends of these stocks and it creates a kind of very soft fibrous brush, which allows you a great deal of control when you're painting. So these are what these are traditionally painted with. And the colors that you see on this vase are red, orange, black, and we'll have a little bit more discussion of the painting in a minute and I'll come back to that. So once you've decorated and you've painted it, you then want to fire it. And Pueblo potters traditionally fired their vessels by gathering them all up together in one spot and then covering them in a kind of makeshift dome made out of pieces of scrap metal. And then covering that with a layer of dung and sometimes wood, which is then lit and you then allow all of that material to burn and it fires the pots inside this metal dome.  But you then have to inspect the pots as well because if any of the dung has kind of touched the surface of any of the vessels, it will leave this black discoloration and if there's too much discoloration, potters would usually remove them because it was kind of unsightly and they would be destroyed. So it's kind of a little bit of a risky technique. It allows you to fire lots of things at the same time, but it does mean that if it doesn't come out the way you want, you put all that effort and time into making it and then have to discard it. So a little bit of a tricky firing process. Then the coloration on this particular pot that we're looking at is pretty typical for the Akama Pueblo painting styles. It's got this again nice cream kind of tan slip body and then it contrasts nicely with these reds and oranges and blacks that it's painted with, which are probably made with paint that is based in iron oxides and hematite. And you can see that there are two main types of panels which are on this vessel. So we have a nice image here of a very highly stylized and abstracted rain bird. So we have a nice kind of swooping curling beak here. We have nice bits of plumage and feathers and kind of abstracted feathers and plumage here. And the rain bird is a very traditional image in Pueblo Sorai painting. It's found across a number of different Pueblo groups and it's a mythological creature that heralds the coming of the rains, which is obviously really important to the people who live in this area. The access to water in New Mexico and Arizona is extremely important for living there. So it's kind of this symbol of life and renewal. And then on the other panel that we have, we have this feathered rosette, which has in the middle of it the image of this stylized bird, which could be a rooster or maybe a road runner. And then it has little floral elements around it as well. So these two motifs are really interesting because they're quite different. One is very highly stylized and abstracted and the other one is more figural, more representational. And they kind of testify to different types of artistic traditions that are coming into play here that are being influenced. And the rain bird motif is very traditionally Pueblo. And this other motif that we have here is still drawing on earlier Pueblo models, but the style and the execution of it is very much influenced by kind of Mexican and Spanish tile arts and folk art, particularly in the rendering of things like the floral elements here. So the different styles that are coming across in this pot actually testify to kind of the intercultural contacts that have been going on in New Mexico between Pueblo, Mexicans, Spanish communities that has been ongoing since kind of the 16th century. So it's an interesting piece of kind of hybridized art that testifies to these different cultural traditions. And the style of the painting on this particular pot is also interesting because it's very characteristic of a particular Acoma master potter whose name was Mary Histia. And she worked in New Mexico in the 1930s, so just around the time that Barnes was visiting and acquiring these objects. And she became particularly famous in the United States for her work. And actually, President Franklin D. Roosevelt was a big fan of her work and a lot of her pots could be found in government buildings in Washington DC and were given as diplomatic gifts to foreign embassies and foreign dignitaries as well. So her work is particularly famous. And the style that we have on this pot is very similar to other pots that she made that were signed by her so that we know that it's her work. And this is somewhat unusual in that Pueblo painters never traditionally signed their work. It wasn't an artistic convention that was really used amongst the Pueblo peoples. It wasn't really until Western art dealers became more interested in Pueblo art that they began to really kind of want to have pieces of work that were commissioned by particular artists and potters that they liked. And so the practice of signing their work only came into later on in a lot of these potters' careers when they were making a living off selling to Western art dealers. So our example here is not actually signed by her, which again is not uncommon, but the style is so similar that we're pretty certain that it was made by her. And a lot of the Pueblo ceramics that we have in this case that this pot is in are not signed. So they're all kind of unknown Pueblo artisans, which are usually women as well. Women are usually potters in Pueblo societies. So I think it's really important for us to recognize that we have a particular artist here that we can attribute this work towards who comes from the Pueblo peoples. And it's really nice to have an example that we can draw on as well that's in the Barnes collection. So next time you're that you're in the museum, please do come and have a look at this pot and think about the things that I've discussed today and in appreciating the artistry that goes on in this ceramic painting tradition. So I hope you enjoyed this Barnes takeout. If you haven't already, please do subscribe to our channel to get your daily serving of art and leave a comment. We really enjoy reading and responding to these as well. So please take care and stay safe. I'm Tom Collins, new Bauer family executive director of the Barnes Foundation. I hope you enjoyed Barnes takeout. Subscribe and make sure your post notifications are on to get daily servings of art. Thanks for watching and for your support of the Barnes Foundation.


Against Bradford City in South Wales with both sides searching for a win to kickstart their league campaigns Newport have had the slightly better start to the season currently in 12th position with three wins and two draws From their opening eight league matches Bradford City a big club with big expectations But Mark Hughes's side are currently languishing in 17th in the early table Today would be a good time for the Bantams to get a run of wins going at the start of play Bradford I've just got two wins and four draws from the opening eight encounters Well since winning three consecutive league games against Bradford In 2020 and 21, Newport have failed to beat the Bantams in each of their last four attempts Although three of those have ended in a draw. They've lost just the once Early opportunity here for Bradford on the far side Of the day in South Wales the ball pulled back Newport offends does well puts the ball around play for a corner Bright early start by the Bantams very good delivery And it's cooked with the header Missed the last four games, but he's back today Unexpectedly back and he almost gets on the score sheet very early on Bradford have won just one of their last seven league visits to Newport drawing three losing three Last win came in April 1985 in the third tier of football Once again Bradford building on that far side Good patient play by Mark Hughes his side Looking to engineer across and a bit of space inside the box the ball goes up headed home Rated highly doubtful yesterday by boss Mark Hughes. He hits the back of the net inside the first quarter hour in South Wales It's an excellent ball From Tullock Stands the ball up for Cook at the far post who slams home his header Great start for Bradford 1-0 Newport have drawn each of their last three League two matches as many as they've drawn in their previous 12 league games, but at the moment They trail to the visitors Bradford who have had an impressive star Here is another opportunity for the visitors headed away. Well By drives down Could work on this right on the side the ball fed into the penalty area shot comes in good block and that just goes wide McDonald it was Trying to steer it in with his right foot from about 20 yards Just goes wide Well, it's all Bradford in these early stages, and it's a second goal It's Tullock and it's two less than 20 minutes on the clock and Tullock has impressed on his full debut on loan from West Brom It's Tullock tapping home after Kevin McDonald's excellent and teasing ball Superstar from the Bantams 2-0 Newport have failed to win in their last four games, and it's not looking good either here today because Andy Cook It's got a third for Bradford City It's an amazing start from Bradford on the half-hour mark Long ball forward And Andy Cook manages to shrug off Bradford's drysdale And he slots the ball coolly past Townsend. What a start for Bradford and for the returning Andy Cook Newport have not lost in the last four games against Bradford City winning two and drawing two, but This is some uphill task now to get back into this one. Do Newport have a repost? Oh, it's gonna be an excellent finish superbly done by the 30-year-old Omar Bogle pulling one back ahead of half-time It's a really good ball from Waite Who slots in Bogle behind? And the former England sea international Puts the ball past Lewis in the Bradford goal It's a little glimmer of a lifeline For Newport County, but it's still a long way back Still two goals in a rears and every time Bradford come forward they look dangerous Walker this time Feeding the ball out to this near side another opportunity very well saved by Townsend Odour it lost with the chance On his right foot when maybe he should have bent it in with his left Newport searching maybe for a second goal Before the break Reducing that deficit potentially down to one Shot fired in just right Waite it is with the chance Newport have drawn eight of their last 16 league matches at home 50% of those matches draws the take one right now Superb Bradford in the first half Newport getting that goal back giving themselves a chance And the chance at the back post as well Bradford searching for that fourth goal which would certainly kill off this contest On the edge of the box Right-footed curling in and still Bradford keep the ball alive on that far side Free gives the free kick and he's got to go to his pocket as well. He's not happy with that challenge Drysdale complains says he got a piece of the ball Right-footed just curling over the bar The leader was good challenge that From the Bradford City player Gets Bradford going down this left-hand side cross coming in And the header. Oh, it's a super header as well It's Andy Cooke gets his hat-trick Liam Rydalsh though take a bow with that fantastic delivery a great overlapping run from Rydalsh Left-footed Additional time at the end of this excellent afternoon for Bradford and Andy Cooke gets his hat-trick makes it a perfect day for him And Bradford Hemmy heading home From that wickedly beautiful cross from Rydalsh. What a delivery That's full-time in South Wales and it's an emphatic win for Mark Hughes's Bradford boys on the road To barnstorming start from the Bantams two goals from Cooke and another from Tullock all within the first half hour Omar Bogle pulled one back for the home side before the break, but Andy Cooke grabbing his hat-trick Right at the end full-time


Think of individual people as nodes in a directed network, where each node refers to a single individual and each directed edge indicates that that person communicates with whoever the edge points to. We can then describe a dyad like the one pictured here as one where person A talks to person B. So person A is the one doing the telling and person B is the one doing the listening. If we think of communication in this way, we might start to think that there are specific traits or dispositions that make someone very good at communicating what they already know, and then there might be other dispositions that make someone very good at hearing what someone else knows. Now, of course, somebody might be good at both of these, in which case we could enhance our network by having them both communicate and be communicated with. But the point is that we can understand individuals in terms of their roles in a communications network. But, of course, telling and listening aren't the only things that can happen in communication. We can also overhear other people. We can remember what they said. We can forget what they said. We can retell what someone said back to them saying something like, so what you're telling me is blah, blah, blah. And we can also retell what they said to some third party who might tell it to some fourth party who might tell it to some other party further down the line. This sort of communications network, the one pictured here, is going to be useful for us because it helps us define the four types of virtues that I mentioned in the outline. Source virtues are the dispositions that make someone an excellent source of knowledge for other individuals. So that doesn't mean that they're necessarily good at looking around in the world and seeing what's going on. It means that they're good at communicating what they happen to know, no matter how they came to know it. These are the best-studied virtues in virtue epistemology, and there are many examples of them. Some of them involve moral character as well as epistemic character. So they include virtues like honesty, sincerity, trustworthiness, and intellectual generosity. If you're going to receive testimony from someone, if someone is going to tell you what they know, it's much better for you if you know that that person is honest. You can trust them more easily. Similarly, if someone is sincere, then what they have to say is probably going to reflect their knowledge. Similarly, if someone is trustworthy, they can be trusted, and someone who's intellectually generous isn't stingy with what they know. They tell you all that you need to hear, not just some bits of it. Source virtues have also been studied in the philosophy of language, including by H. Paul Greist, who in a 1975 paper argued that there is a duty to be cooperative in a communicative exchange. When he talks about cooperation, he specifically is thinking about the cooperativeness of a speaker, rather than the cooperativeness of a hearer. He said that there are four main ways that someone can manifest this cooperativeness. He called these the maxims of quantity, quality, relation, and manner. Quantity has to do with saying all that someone needs to hear and no more. Quality has to do with saying what you know and indicating that you know it, saying what you guess and indicating that you merely guess it, and saying what you doubt and indicating that you doubt it. Relation has to do with saying things that are relevant to what's gone before in the talk exchange, so not just randomly asserting things that you happen to think are true, but asserting things that are relevant to what's been said before. And manner has to do with the rudeness or propriety in the way in which someone speaks, for instance, not talking over someone, listening to their whole sentence before responding, and so on. The source virtue related to the maxim of quantity can be thought of in terms of the Aristotelian doctrine of the mean. According to this theory, many, if not all, virtues are a mean or an average between two vices, two bad ways of being. An example that Aristotle often uses is courage. He says that a courageous person is neither too confident nor not confident enough, that a courageous person fears neither too much nor too little. In terms of the maxim of quantity, we can think of the mean in terms of neither providing too much information nor providing too little information. Someone who says too much, who says things that they do happen to know to be true, but which are more than this hearer needs to know, might engage in things like mansplaining or what is sometimes called conversational terrorism, whereas someone who gives too little might be described as intellectually stingy or even as lying by omission. The disposition to adhere to the maxim of quality can also be thought of in terms of the Aristotelian doctrine of the mean. So someone can go too far in one direction or the other, so in the direction of excess, someone might be pathologically lacking in confidence. So even though they know something, they might be disposed never to say so because they just might be wrong or they might be reluctant to speculate because they think that that would be a violation of saying only what you have evidence for. In the other direction, someone might violate the maxim of quality by passing off their opinions as knowledge or by passing off their speculation as their opinions. In terms of the maxim of relation, someone who is too keen to stick to only what's relevant might lack creativity. They don't think of things that are somewhat relevant but only indirectly so, whereas someone who goes too far in the other direction could be accused of engaging in evasion, deflection, and non-sequitur. So if this is right, it suggests that there are source virtues related to not just honesty and sincerity and trustworthiness as we saw before, but also to these topics that are discussed in the philosophy of language, namely the maxims of quantity, quality, and relation. It's less clear to me that the maxim of manner fits this kind of analysis, so I'll turn now to receiver virtues. These are the virtues that make someone an excellent receiver of communication from another rather than an excellent source of information for another person. They relate to testimonial knowledge, so someone who is an excellent receiver who has virtues related to receiving communication is more likely to acquire knowledge from others and less likely to be deceived by others who are lying or speaking over confidently and so on. Such dispositions have been studied in virtue epistemology and social epistemology by people like John Greco and Ernie Sosa. A second type of receiver virtue that has gotten some interest recently is epistemic justice. This is a concept that Miranda Fricker introduced in 2007. Her basic idea is this, sometimes we're subtly biased against other people. We think that, well, this sort of person doesn't tend to have knowledge about this topic. And so when someone tells us the truth, even if they're expressing their knowledge, we might not take them as seriously as they deserve. She calls that a credibility deficit. There are also credibility excesses. These occur when someone belongs to some kind of group that we take more seriously than they deserve. Perhaps people who have an accent that we find charming. Fricker says that epistemic justice is the virtue of, according exactly the right amount of credibility to the statements and assertions of other people and not applying either credibility excesses or the one that she's more interested in credibility deficits to what they have to say in a systematic way. Even more recently, there's been some work on the virtue of intellectual humility, which is an interesting disposition because unlike many virtues, it's one where having it might be inconsistent with knowing that you have it. There's no problem with an honest person thinking that they're honest. And there's no problem with a courageous person thinking that they're courageous. But a person who goes around bragging about how humble they are probably isn't really humble. So this is an interesting virtue that I and some others have started to investigate recently. And it's easily thought of as a receiver virtue because if someone tells you something that you didn't know or if somebody tells you something that you disagree with, then humility is required in order to investigate their claims and take them seriously. There is perhaps also a disposition not to make assertions or take the assertions of others on board with the right amount of credibility, but also to ask questions, to use interrogative statements rather than assertions. And these would be the interrogative analogues of the Gracian maxims that we discussed just before in the section on source virtues, and they would have to do with asking the right questions of the right people at the right time for the right reasons and so on. Christopher Hookway published a paper in 2010 in the journal Episteme that had to do with such receiver virtues. Two other kinds of virtues that have not been discussed as much are conduit virtues and echo virtues, where a source virtue makes someone an excellent original source of communication and a receiver virtue makes someone an excellent recipient of information from someone else. A conduit virtue makes someone an excellent conduit through which knowledge or information can pass. They might do this by believing what they've been told and reporting it as their own knowledge to someone else, or they might express such a conduit virtue by quoting or paraphrasing what someone else has said. Conduit virtues have been almost entirely neglected by philosophers, including people who work on virtue epistemology. Two recent exceptions to this trend are papers that I co-authored in the first instance with Brian Robinson, a paper on the virtue of gossiping well, and a paper that I co-authored with Gus Skorberg on journalistic virtues, which have to do, we argue, with taking the words of people from various groups seriously and reporting them on even if one is not likely to make a lot of money off of such reporting. Much contemporary non-academic attention, however, has been paid to conduit virtues. So, for instance, there was an article recently in the news about a strategy that some women used in the first term of the Obama White House that they called amplification. What this meant was whenever a woman made a point in an important meeting, another woman would repeat it and refer it back to the first person who spoke. They did this because they found that unless they amplified, they would be spoken over by the men at the meetings, and sometimes the men would even take credit for the women's contributions claiming them as their own. So, conduit virtues have to do not just with repeating what someone said, but also with giving them credit for it when one does repeat what they said. Another example of non-academic attention to conduit virtues is the say-her-name hashtag, which was started by Kimberly Crenshaw very recently in response to the Black Lives Matter movement. She doesn't disagree with the Black Lives Matter movement, but she found that they paid disproportionate attention to police violence against black men, and she wanted to raise awareness about police brutality towards black women as well. The say-her-name hashtag insists on not just reporting statistics about women who've been harmed by the police, but individualizing them and humanizing them by insisting on saying their names. Another example of a conduit vice in this case was recent outrage over Donald Trump retweeting anti-Semitic memes that he got from alt-right accounts on Twitter. Another thing that Trump is often accused of doing, in fact, which he often does do, is say things like, a lot of people are saying and then reporting a conspiracy theory or an innuendo. In fact, this has been responded to also on Twitter by people who started using the hashtag Many People Are Saying and mocking Donald Trump with it. Echo virtues are the fourth type of virtues we're going to think about in this discussion, and they might seem a bit unnecessary. After all, if I tell you something and then you just repeat it back to me, that seems sort of useless, and if I tell you something and you repeat it to yourself, again, that might seem kind of useless. So, echo virtues, maybe rightly, have been ignored by most philosophers. There are three exceptions that I can think of, however. David Wong, a philosopher at Duke University, has written about character echoes. He has the idea that when I tell you what I think and what I care about and what I value, you might echo that back to me in a slightly distorted and perhaps even idealized way in order to help me crystallize what I really care about in order to help me find out what sort of person I really am. And he thinks of this as a process that mostly is just true to what the source originally reports, to what A says to B, but which might involve a certain amount of benevolent or charitable distortion. Two other examples are the philosophers Bluestine and Margulet, who've written about ritual echoing specifically of people who've died. Bluestine speaks about the dear departed, so family and friends who've died, and Margulet specifically focuses on the Holocaust and the duty to remember this atrocity and others like it. Both of them point out that memory is fragile and that one way to strengthen memories, one way to ensure that we don't forget is to repeat either to ourselves or to each other, sometimes in ritualized ways. An echo virtue that's been investigated to some extent in clinical practice is the find methodology, which I'll mention just in a second. First, I want to show you an example of an echo virtue related to the Holocaust. This is a picture that I took in the town of Khauda in the Netherlands this year. These are Stolperstein, which means stumbling blocks or stumbling stones. And there are thousands of these now throughout Europe that have been placed in the ground in front of the houses where Jews were last living before they were taking to concentration camps and death camps. And the point with these is that they're very simple, they're easy to miss and that's what makes them stumbling blocks in a way. But they ensure that we don't forget these people who were killed during the Holocaust. The find methodology, which stands for filming interactions to nurture development is being developed at Phil Fisher's lab at the University of Oregon. And what he basically does is he films parents interacting with high risk children and he edits the videos of these interactions to ensure that only the very best interactions are shown back to the parents when they watch them. And then these are used as a kind of role model for the parents where they themselves become their own role models because they get back an echo that shows only the best of them.


What's going on everyone Donnie here ripping a personal for a cash. He's got a 2223 prism hobby box, so let's see what we can get for you. Okay, here we go Let's see who we can get now. This is my first time riffing basketball prism, so Try again idea where everything is Jason Tainham charismatic Siddiq Bay on The silver rolling kind of Lofton jute rookie base So I think with prism usually the rookies are in the back I remember that correctly Like there's a red Lottery we got red Brandon Ingram on the I believe it's the red wave Not numbered. I'd be lucky lottery. You've got Kate Cunningham That is the hyper I believe then we got a Walker Kessler base Rodman Apollo base nice Those are red Actually a couple of reds. I think maybe Yeah, it's red wave of Cameron Johnson Leonard on the fireworks Aaron Gordon silver like Wesley Ricky Bryce McGowns Wilkins. Oh, we've got our auto here auto. We've got blue of Carlyle Anthony nice that is to 199 and then for the auto You've got Jerry Stackhouse on the base signatures a Kwanu on The hyper no, that's not hyper isn't that's pulsar. I think right?  There we go. Yeah, I get used to saying Champs for the all the Denver players got red coming up. Oh, we got red Was this power yeah power I want to say I wasn't sure Red power on the car alone to 75 Nice number there Steph Curry on the prismatic canard Ewing Sky Pippin jr. Rookie and Nash Grant British Or is on the mojo we've got I'm a jaren Jackson jr. Mojo to 25 That's a little number there for young fireworks. Got jail and Suggs on the silver That's all Coloco Coloco there we go Christian brawn on the base Little bit Anthony a little bit on the red Wave James Harden widescreen Zion Got on the hyper Tyrese Halliburton Jill Williams On the base And Jeremy so can so so Han Yeah, oh Was he I don't know that probably should have We've got on the red Alex Berks to 299 Zion Jovich on the Man hyper and pulse are really hard the It's hyper really hard to tell between those two Grady Jabari Walker Dwayne got the more Rosen on the prismatic silver another prismatic base of Mobley Johnson Silver Azeem Mobley base Ricky Johnson and Dyson Daniels On the base Ricky the Rose in this ball got Shaq on the fearless Deirdre Fox on the hyper nice Team AJ Griffin steal the draft as Sam inside All right, last two packs. Let's see what we've got I got a mojo at 25. Let's see if we can get something else low-numbered Ja on the fireworks silver Shannon sharp shade and sharp on the luck of the lottery Whoa, Walker Kessler silver nice Wendell Moore Jr. Alan Kennedy Chandler and last pack Kamma Let's see last auto here Gots See his last name Usman Usman J on the red Rookie to 299 Then last auto box Dale and Terry I'm hoping I said the right Dale and Terry base on the signatures rookie nice Then Branham on the hyper Peyton Watson rookie base Bain and Carter All right, Rikash. I'll do it for your box man. Thank you for the order. We'll get these right out to you


Zambia deport South African dancer Zodway Wabantu Lusaka, Zambia on Saturday deported a controversial female South African dancer, Zodway Wabantu, who is popularly known for performing without underwear, on the grounds that her performance would undermine national values. Zambia is a very conservative country whose constitution explicitly states that it is a Christian nation, in contrast with more liberal South Africa. Zodway has been deported, her Zambian promoter Lucky Munichamp told Reuters. Munichamp said she had flown out at 5.20 GMT on a South African Airways flight. The dancer had been due to perform on Saturday in Lusaka at the launch of a music album organized by a local entertainment company, Sunset Sound Production. The organizers of the show said in a statement earlier this week that Zambia's National Arts Council had rejected their application. The council stated that Zodway's performances were not in the public interest and undermined our national values, the statement said.


So, welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. Okay, everybody's been asking, could a single supplement significantly increase your lifespan? My guest thinks it's entirely possible and you're about to learn why. In just a moment, I'll speak with Chris Burris. Chris is the owner of SES Research, the first company to deliver My Vital Sea, the world's first nano antioxidant to the public. When Chris learned a Nobel Prize-winning chemical tested by NASA had been proven to almost double the lifespan in mammals, he made it his mission to get it into the hands of people around the world. Today, we'll talk about that chemical, ESS60, and how it can help you, one dose at a time. Welcome, Chris. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Dr. Gundry, for having me here. I'm actually so excited to be here. I've watched a number of your podcasts, listened to two of your books. It's actually really an honor to be here. Oh, my gosh. All right. That's enough. That's it for the Dr. Gundry podcast. Tune in next week. No, no, no. Don't go away. This is going to be too good to miss. So, your background is fascinating. You have experienced in mechanical engineering. Comedy improv. Yes. That's where you got that pitch from just now. Metal and gas explosives. Yes. Things that go boom. Podcasting. Yes. And competitive soccer. Yes. Boy, that is a mix. They don't go together. That doesn't seem natural. That doesn't seem to mesh very well.  You know, I always, as I was growing up, it's interesting that you mentioned that. As I was growing up, I always thought that it's the right thing to be a renaissance man to have experiences in a lot of different areas. And now I somehow ended up here. All right. So now you've got carbon nanomaterials. Yes. All right. Can you explain to me and my five-year-old granddaughter what a carbon nanomaterial is and how you got into this industry? Well, yeah. So carbon nanomaterials, they were really discovered in 1985 by a scientist, Dr. Richard Smalley and Harold Proto and Robert Curle at Rice University, which is in Houston. And it's the third form of carbon. So we're all familiar with diamond. We're familiar with graphite. And now there's a whole gamut of molecules, the most abundant of which is, looks like this. This is a model of the buckyball. And if you imagine a soccer ball, the lines on the soccer ball represent the bonds between the carbon atoms. So you have this spherical molecule of 60 carbon atoms. They won the Nobel Prize for this discovery. In fact, they won it in a short 11 years. And the way I got involved with it, at the time my business partner Robert Wong was working at the Texas Center for Superconductivity at the University of Houston, Go Cougs. And his professor, Dr. Paul Chu, is actually pretty famous in the superconductivity world. One day came in at the time this material. So you're holding up literally what appears to be a soccer ball that doesn't have any leather on it. It's just the framework of a soccer ball. Yeah. Like a soccer ball created by a chemistry student with the chemistry pieces. But this is a naturally occurring molecule, or do we have to make it? So it is naturally occurring. In fact, if you collect the soot off of a candle, you can get some parts per million, parts per billion. Thank you for saying that. Of buckyballs, right? Yeah, it's important to know that. It's not naturally occurring in large quantities, right? When my business partner was separating this material, this material was selling for $6,000 per gram. So that's a nice price point for a product that you might sell. And chimney sweeps get this for free. So when you're in the presence of oxygen, it's actually very hard to make large quantities. So yes, then the chimney sweeps would have to know the HPLC processes in order to separate it. But yeah, it is naturally occurring. And so Professor Chu came in and asked my business partner, you guys are young guys. This is obviously a hot topic, really sexy material. Why don't you go start a company? And my business partner is from an entrepreneurial background. And so this was selling for $6,000 a gram. So he started. I was studying mechanical engineering at the University of Houston. And they kind of brought me on board. He had another business partner. They brought me on board to help them design the equipment. And it turns out that equipment is actually the most efficient equipment for producing fullerines. We've traveled the world, visited with other people who manufacture. And it's currently the most efficient. We're actually invested in other technologies to make it even a mass production process. It's currently a batch process. Now let me stop you there. Yep. You mentioned Bucky Ball and you mentioned Fullerine. Yes. Where does that come from? So when Dr. Richard Smalley and Harold Croto and Robert Curl discovered it, they kind of leaned on Buckminster Fuller. Thank you. Right? Who is a famous architect. He actually kind of put to the forefront the geodesic dome. And this actually has the shape. And I'm holding it up again of a geodesic dome. And so they wanted to pay homage to Fuller. And so they call them the gamut of molecules. So they're C60, which is like a soccer ball shape. C70 is more of a rugby ball shape. And then C76 and a lot of even numbers going up. And those get more round as they get larger. I mean, this is pretty round. Yeah, C60 is pretty round. C70 gets the oblong. So they wanted to pay homage to Fuller. And so the gamut of molecules is called Fullerines. And then the most abundant is affectionately called the Bucky Ball. OK, sorry to interrupt, but it's too good a story for where these names come from. Yeah, I mean, the story I'm actually currently going back and rereading, there's a book called The Miracle Molecule. No, the most beautiful molecule is what it's called. And it talks about the story of the discovery of Bucky Ball, how Curl and Croto and Dr. Smalley, what their grad students did instead of what they did and how they kind of collectively just came up with the concept that this soccer ball shape was the right shape for carbon 60, because they had this peak on a chart that said carbon 60 was. What the heck is that? Yeah, it didn't make sense in that context. So that story is an amazing story. And yeah, it's really amazing how this was discovered. Some incredible things about the Bucky Ball.  It'll actually turn into a diamond. One of the ways I describe it is actually got six-fold symmetry. So it's one of the most symmetrical molecules that enables it to hold a whole lot of electrons and release a whole lot of electrons. Lithium in battery cells, like in your cell phone, over time that lithium tends to like the battery starts not performing as well. That's because of degradation of the lithium. This molecule is actually so symmetric and so strong, you won't have that degradation. So we may see Bucky Ball batteries at some point in the future. And you're probably invested in that. Not yet. We're the largest manufacturer and distributor. So we kind of have our fingers in everything, our hands in everything, but we don't have any specific investments. The next best technology is actually solar cells. So organic solar cells obviously really valuable. They're flexible, and you can just lay them out on things. And there's a company in Boston that we have a partnership with to bring to the forefront another production process for fullerines and then to kind of help support their efforts in solar cell technology. OK, so this is a very expensive molecule. And so you said, gee, I like expensive molecules because there's profit here. So what? It's an expensive molecule. I mean, I don't chew diamonds to. They're also expensive, yeah. Exactly, to extend my lifespan. Maybe I should. Why this molecule? So they won the Nobel Prize in 11 years, right? And the reason they won it so quickly is the scientific community knew that it was going to be very important. In fact, a lot of the community hearkened it to a 3D version of benzene. You know how important benzene is, right? It's in most medicines. It's the foundation of most medicines, certainly a foundation of plastics. We really don't have modern society without a benzene ring. And now you take a 3D version of benzene pretty quickly. Everyone's like, well, this is going to be really important, thus the Nobel Prize. Also, if it's really important, we're going to use it in a lot of places, we need to know if it's toxic. Benzene is, in fact, toxic, right, until you add stuff to it. So they assumed it would be toxic. They did a toxicity study in 2012 at the University of Paris. So they gave rats water, rats olive oil, and then I start to kind of make a distinction between C60 and ESS60 at this point. Because C60, when you is for industrial applications and when you improperly process it, is known to be harmful. ESS60 is C60 that's been processed for safer human consumption. And so they gave those rats water, olive oil, and then olive oil with ESS60 in it. And instead of being toxic, the rats lived 90% longer than the control group. That's not bad. Well, the current best research process, and I know you're into intermittent fasting, straight up calorie restriction, which most people aren't signing up for, gets you a 30% extension in life. So we're talking a threefold increase over the previous best way to extend your life. It's pretty amazing. Not only was their life extended 90%, it was done on whister rats. They tend to die at about 32 months. The rats given ESS60 and olive oil, they lived to 62 months. All the rats given water had tumors, because that's typical of a whister rat. The ones given ESS60 and olive oil, none of them had tumors. I think that's a pretty important piece of this research, because typically the amount of tumors a whister rat has is increases over time. So they lived twice as long and had no tumors. And I know that people start thinking right away, like, oh, anti-cancer, you've got to be really careful. There's a big difference between being able to turn a cancer around and doing preventative things so that you don't get cancer. But the implications are pretty, pretty profound. So in my area of work, back when I was a transplant surgeon and a transplant immunologist, same thing with transplant drugs. They are toxic, and we always had to find the toxic level. So when Rampa Mycin came out, these tests are done in rats. And lo and behold, rather than kill the rats, the rats who were given Rapa Mycin live significantly longer. And obviously, we eventually found, I didn't, smarter people than me, found the mammalian target of Rapa Mycin, which we now know exists in all animals, including worms. So we know how Rapa Mycin worked. And it was the mammalian target of Rapa Mycin, TOR, MTOR, is an energy sensor. So OK, so the rats lived longer. How does this stuff work? So that's a great question. And smarter than people than me will probably figure that out. And so far, we don't know exactly. What we do know is that this formulation is a great antioxidant. So there's some research that says it's 172 times more powerful than vitamin C. And it's an anti-inflammatory. And a lot of current aging processes with thought is that aging is a function of oxidation and inflammation. And so at least in this kind of mindset, it's not surprising that something that helped mammals, rats, live 90% longer, is both an antioxidant and an anti-inflammatory. Beyond that, we don't know. We do understand that the Bucky Balls Carbon 60 will get into mitochondria and participate in the ATP processes in there. And so that obviously has some significant ramifications.  And most would probably agree, yes, that'd be a really good thing. Well, maybe that's the mechanism that's going on. We also know that it crosses the blood-brain barrier. And so that is both nerve-wracking and typically and pretty exciting. So our customers, and we'll probably talk about testimonials here in a little bit, are reporting very interesting things as they take the product. Now, earlier you mentioned that it's a great electron donor or it carries bunches of electrons. It can, yes. It can absorb and release many without degradation of the molecule. So to my way of thinking, many people believe that life exists only to move electrons from one level of charge to another, which is pretty humbling. But it may be that that's true. So I think if you had something that carried and could donate a lot of electrons and even absorb other electrons, that might be a fun thing to look at or to have. Yeah. Well, and then you just talk about how free radicals are just charged elements or charged molecules. And boom, it can contain those or interact with those. And it's clearly interacting. Well, it seems to be clearly interacting in a positive way, certainly in this 2012 study, which is interesting. So it's a peer-reviewed published study. That's what you always look for in quality research. And our company provided the Carbon-60 in that study, and we're actually referenced in that paper. So we're pretty proud of being out there and supporting the carbon nanomaterial environment from, again, the beginning, 1991, when we started. Well, OK. Why did you put it in olive oil? So I'd like to say that I was smart enough to be the one to put it in olive oil. It was actually in that original study in Paris that they decided to put it in olive oil. And it turns out, so this is interesting. I know you have, I watched a video of yours about olive oil. You have scoured the earth and found a really high-quality, polyphenol-rich olive oil. And that's important, right? Yep. But what happened in this original study is they gave the rats, again, water, olive oil, and then olive oil with ESS-60. The ones they gave olive oil to lived 30% longer. Oh, I love it. Right? So whatever olive oil you're taking, you should take more. I love your food. Purpose is to get olive oil into your mouth, into your body. Very true. And I'm constantly adding more. So it may have been just serendipitous that he chose olive oil, or maybe he's French and he ate olive oil all the time and thought, well, this is what I would want if I were a rat. Maybe rats like olive oil. We do have products that are in MCT. In fact, my kind of morning routine is to take our MCT product, add that to a little coffee to have a little kind of bulletproof coffee kind of experience, and then I'll have my dose. My typical dose is about a tablespoon. What we have in our packaging is one teaspoon, but I up it because I can and get more olive oil. Like I really think even prior to listening to your books that olive oil is a really important thing to be consuming on a regular basis. So I don't know that there's a specific reason that they chose olive oil. It is the product that we promote. So one thing a lot of people, there's some MCT carbon-60 products, and again, I would recommend that you look for ESS-60, safer for human consumption. But what you got to know about MCT or carbon-60 and even ESS-60 and MCT is it's significantly lower concentration. So you can get about 0.8 milligrams per milliliter in olive oil, and you can get about 0.35 milligrams per milliliter, less than half in MCT. So if you want the same raw ingredient, value from the raw ingredient, you've got to take more than double the dose. So it's something to be aware of. OK, so when something's done in rats, how do you know how much a human needs to take? I'm sure you get that all the time. Yes, so if you just did, based on the experiment, so actually, this is really, really interesting. In that original experiment, they didn't give the rats any doses until they were 10 months old. It was about a third of their life. And then they only gave them doses for seven months. And then the rats, even after that, no more doses, lived 90% longer. We're currently working on the first parts of a trial to recreate the experiment. That's the scientific process, right? Get a result, recreate the result. We are not going to stop giving the doses at month 17, so it would be interesting what kind of extension we have from that point. When, if you looked at the dosage that the rats actually got in the study, and you just did a per kilogram basis, we would be taking a cup of olive oil per dose, or a cup of ESS60 and olive oil per dose. You and I would like that fundamentally. But most people are not comfortable with a cup. So what you really need to do is what's called an allometric calculation. So there's a way to take in. Obviously, the metabolism of a rat is very different than the metabolism of a human. And this is super geeky. The way you equate them is by surface area. So it feels very engineering to say, if you take the surface area of a rat and you compare it to the surface area of a human, you actually use those numbers to figure out what the right dosage is, right? Because this happens all the time. First, experiments happen in rats, and then they go to human trials. So we did an allometric calculation and ended up right at about 0.5, excuse me, five milliliters, which is a teaspoon, right at a teaspoon for a single dose. Yeah, so that's how we ended up at that kind of nomenclature, or that value. Could you overdose? I have seen YouTube videos of people taking bottles of this. So 100 mils at a time, so not the full cup, but 120 mils at a time. These are very rich people. These are very, very rich people. Yes, they have access. It's a good thing it's not $5,000 at Graham anymore. No. But still very rich people. And I know that the very first guy to go to market with a C60 in olive oil, and he purchased a C60 from us, he said before he was gonna sell this, the night before he went online, he downed two bottles, which had a little effect on his system, but he had 200 milliliters in one single dose. So really it doesn't have a known toxicity level. I think it would kind of might equate to what's the toxicity level of olive oil? And once we've figured that out, it's probably the same. So far nobody's gotten that much in. Exactly. The Mediterranean diet isn't like just chug it until you pass out. Until you pass out, or throw up. And I do actually have some patients who really push olive oil early on in their experience and do notice that their bowel movements change sometimes quite loosely, but once you become acclimated to it. And Dave Asprey talks about this with MCT oil. A lot of people think they ought to start with a tablespoon or two tablespoons and often regret that. Yeah, I have about a teaspoon in it. It has an impact. It definitely has an impact. And certainly my patients, women are more sensitive to MCT oil, for instance, in terms of diarrhea. Okay, it's interesting you mentioned Dave Asprey because when he was on your podcast last time, it was kind of exciting for me. I watched that podcast and he talked about having a secret formula that extends rats. And in his case, he mentioned mice by, lives by 95% and wasn't able to share it. Well, I mean, I'm holding up the buckyball. That's the material that he was talking about, which is pretty exciting for me and the direction the industry is gonna go. Yeah, and actually I was just on Dave's, it's a special secret podcast for subscribers for him. And so we got into the nitty-gritty and he's so impressed with C60 that he is invested in apparently not your company, but there are other companies but they probably get the product from you. They probably do, yes. I would argue if they're getting safe product, they probably get it from us, yeah. So how do you know a safe product from not so safe? Cause there's a lot of them out there. Yes, yeah. Well, and there's kind of two levels of safe product versus not safe product. So the first is if you're just interested in getting the powder and some people are interested in getting the powder and mixing it themselves. And we've always kept kind of smaller quantities available for end users cause it can get expensive and so that's a way to kind of mitigate that cost. And then the other is once you get the ESS60 or C60 in oil, whatever type of oil, how do you remain safe? And there's challenges here. I can tell you in the process of separating and purifying pure C60, you need to use solvents. Solvents such as toluene or hexane, things that in general we don't want to be around. Yeah, don't scare us like that. Well, and remember, hexane is used in a lot of plant extracts. So like the kind of food and supplement industry knows how to work with these but you gotta work with them the right way. And the buckyball is a little bit different in how it interacts with these solvents. So it's very important that you get these solvents out, right? And for us, that's called ESS60. Make sure the solvents are out. They're baked out, they're washed out and then now you've got a product that's safer for human consumption. And that's really important. You wanna make sure that that's also what's in the oil. So it's interesting cause my kind of story started as a carbon nanomaterial scientist. And then in 2012, this study comes out and in mid-2013, we start getting some phone calls about how much in a dose. And if you think about me with my carbon nanomaterial scientist hat on, no, this goes in tires and batteries and solar cells. You don't put this in your body. So we actually added to our labeling not for human consumption for the first time in company history in the mid-2013. The data was clear, right? C60 improperly processed. Harmful, C60 properly processed, which we call ESS60 was beneficial and not harmful. They injected it subcutaneously in rats. They made them inhale it.  Fast forward to 2017, a guy with a really big YouTube following started talking about the benefits that he was getting from taking the product and the industry sold out. Except for us, because we're the largest manufacturer and distributor of the raw ingredient. So really we entered 2018. We had to ask ourselves two questions and the first one's a moral question. I take it, my wife takes it, everybody on my team takes it. I'm comfortable selling it to you. I think that's the first and most important thing. And then of course FDA, FTC you have supplements so you're aware of the challenges that you may have there. You need to stay on the right side of those organizations also. So it was really in 2018 that we decided to move forward with this supplement. And I think I'm an interesting kind of supplement guy. I think there's usually two paths. A lot of people are like, hey, I'm gonna get really wealthy so let me be a supplement guy. I have no problem with people being wealthy. That's just not how I got here. And the other is maybe they have their own physical challenges and they find solutions for their challenges and then they wanna save the world. I have no problems with people saving the world but that's not how I ended up here. I ended up here because I manufacture a material, right? Since 1991, they do a toxicity study. The rats live 90% longer and now people want it.  So I'm a little different in terms of a supplement guy. Okay, so you've been manufacturing this stuff forever. Yes. And so the rat study comes out and so you say, well, that's pretty cool. I'm gonna start trying this on myself and my wife, did you try it on your wife first? Of course. No. It took me a while to convince my wife actually to try it. And I didn't, I took a couple doses back in 2013. And I didn't, like I didn't take much and I didn't really, Didn't notice? I didn't really notice anything. And then in 2018, right? When really the kind of internet starts clamoring for the product, that's when I started taking it in earnest. And some of the, like what I noticed, very specific things. And it's often very subtle. I don't know if this happens when you get people off lectins, do you kind of have to quiz them to say, are you noticing you're sleeping better or your bowel movements are better? You sometimes you have to query people in order to get the right information. For me, I used to get migraines. And I would, I actually have a spreadsheet. It was only four or five migraines a year with migraines really suck. And I had a spreadsheet. So I was trying to figure out what was triggering it. I didn't get any migraines in 2018, which is the year I started taking them consistently. And then in 2019, I actually got two migraines. So I should have had eight to 10. Now I've had two.  I can tell you, my wife, she was getting about nine migraines. There's some medication that you can take and they only prescribed nine because it's strong. And now she's down to one or two per month. So it definitely has, at least with us, those types of implications. Well, as my listeners and viewers know, I used to have lots of migraines. I did baby heart transplants with migraines, which I don't recommend. Wow.  So, yeah, there's lots of ways to skin a cat. One of the things that you experimented on yourself and whenever I'm looking at a new supplement or one of my patients says, what do you think about this supplement? And I don't know about it or I'm not tried it.  Research it first. Right, research it first.  And I've done that with actually everything I've done.  But one of the things, so we're gonna talk about what people have noticed. But I'm gonna bring up an interesting placebo effect. Okay. So, a few years now, nicotinamide riboside came out as a NADH enhancer and NAD positive. And a lot of hype, tons of hype. And there clearly now are some human studies that this does increase NAD to a small amount. Right. But a friend of mine, who has a very nice supplement company, when she started promoting it, her first commercial was, I can't tell you the immediate buzz of energy I get after swallowing this. It is so remarkable that, you know, 10 minutes after I swallow this. I know it. I know it. And she's a friend of mine. And I go, well, actually, that's impossible. It's not how it works. You can have a jolt of caffeine and I can tell you you'll feel it. But that's not how that drug works.  So why don't you share that with me? But listeners should know that anecdotes are that. Your rat study is not an anecdote. Right. Okay. That's peer-reviewed published research. Exactly. And that's nice and solid. Actually speaking about this, maybe I can get your input and maybe you've got, I'm kind of on two quests. So one quest is, is there another study, peer-reviewed published on mammals that has a longer result? Right. So I don't know if anybody in your audience or you are aware of it. If you ever are, send it my direction because I want to be aware of it because I'm out here saying it's the longest result. I believe it is, but if there's another one, I'd like to know. The other is, this is a really, I don't know, nerdy, really important question, I think. And I think there's a number. We may never be able to know the number, but what percentage of stuff that happens or doesn't happen in a rat, does or doesn't happen in a human. We all know we do rat trials first and then they go to human trials.  And I actually asked a professor from DePaul University, he does rat studies and kind of carries them into human trials and I asked that question and he gave a really interesting story. He said, here's what scientists will hold up and say, you can't believe what happens in a rat will happen in a human. And it basically was a morning sickness drug and they gave it to the rats and there was, you're maybe familiar with this one, right? The rats were fine and then they started doing human trials and unfortunately, the fetuses were coming out to form. Correct. And so this is what a lot of scientists will say, look, this is the evidence, you can't take what happens in a rat and apply it to humans. And then this DePaul University professor, he came back and said, the problem was is they never looked at the fetuses of the rats. Had they looked at the fetuses of the rats, they were deformed. And so when this professor who has a lot more experience like with rat studies going to human studies than I do, says this is the pinnacle and it's wrong, it implies that there's a lot of applicability. A lot of people don't know that we're closer genetically to rats than rats are to mice, right? So genetically our intuition isn't accurate as with a lot of things. But yeah, that's another quest. If anybody has some ideas about what is the applicability of what happens in a rat that happens to a human, I'd love to kind of understand that better. And we have more in common with rats than dogs, unfortunately, genetically. Yeah. And my wife reminds me of that all the time.  Okay, all right, so tell me, so how many people do you have trying this stuff? So we have thousands of customers. We actually sell the powder into other organizations. They've got thousands of customers. It's a pretty small market. So there's probably 15 to 20,000 people who are taking this on a regular basis. So it's new and still significant, right? It's nothing compared to CBD. CBD is going crazy and you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a CBD store or somebody selling it. And I believe it has bigger implications than CBD. Wow, that's a bold statement. That's a bold statement. I've got some, in fact, some of my employees, there are family members who are taking CBD and we give a generous discount to our employees and now their discounted material goes to their family members who are no longer taking CBD, right? My understanding of the research behind CBD is that if you're, you know, the really strong research is if you're a child with a very specific form of epilepsy, the FDA says this is really good. Other than that, there's a lot of anecdotal type things related to CBD as well. True, you know, the placebo effect is strong. Yes. Yeah, I see just as an aside, I see about a 50% response rate in my patients to CBD for whatever they're looking for, whether it's sleep, whether it's pain relief, it's... Isn't placebo about 48%? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I think it's... Okay, so what are people reporting? So the most, and by the way, I'm going to talk a little bit about kind of benefits. So I definitely have to say the FDA hasn't evaluated our product, it's not intended to treat, diagnose, cure or prevent any disease. Is it grass? It is not grass. We're working on the process of grass, right? Grass is not, we're not talking about marijuana. We're talking about generally regarded as safe. Yeah. Which is a FDA nomenclature for something that's generally regarded as safe. So yeah, we're certainly have a Graz consultant that's helping us and we're working to navigate those waters. The most consistent testimonial that we get is better sleep. I notice you have an oar ring, I've got an oar ring. I'm actually doing a study with a scientist at Aura and they of course have lots of data of people who haven't tried my product and so we're going to send the product and see data afterwards. I can tell you already that my own data, some of my own data doesn't match the data that his name's Benjamin with Aura has shared with me and it's interesting. It's alcohol, like when you have drinks at night your resting heart rate takes longer to get to the low point, mine doesn't. So what you're saying this allows you to drink more? So, yes. I can say. You didn't hear that. I can say that we have a great drug. We have a number of testimonials and myself included and I actually feel, my wife and I feel when we travel we get less experience with jet lag. Jet lag. Yeah. Like I woke up today at 6.20 California time in Houston it was 8.20, given when I went to sleep. It's the right time actually for me to wake up and weird things happen like it. So one testimonial, I was given the product to my office mate like in the office next door and I came and visitor was like, so how's your experience? She's like, Chris, I don't wanna disappoint you but I'm not experiencing anything. And I said, well how's your sleep? And our eyes just got huge. And she's like, well I've been tech, Facebooking saying I'm waking up at 5.30 in the morning now. Well rested and so sleep is the most consistent. Another, I've got a business coach. He said for 50 years I needed an alarm clock to wake up. Since I tried this formulation I'm waking up without the alarm clock. And we all know that sleep is really, really important.   Our product, our customers typically take it in the morning, our customers typically report kind of mental focus and energy during the day and then better sleep that night. So something more fundamental is going on. It's gonna be exciting as we learn what that is. So besides sleep, what are people seeing? Well a lot of people are talking about arthritis, pain relief, I mentioned better sleep which helps everything. I've got testimonials of a lady with her child who was actually going to the hospital for mental illness issues. In 2019 she didn't take him at all and he was on the product. So again maybe crossing the blood-brain barrier, maybe better sleep. We have people growing back hair, which I'm a scientist and I'm concerned about the testimonials we're getting but one lady was like, I'm growing back hair and it's not coming in gray, it's coming in blonde. So that's pretty impressive. Even though she was a brunette. No more hair dyes, it's awesome. And then we also have people who talk about better eyesight so that their eyesight has improved which again makes me uncomfortable. I'm just sharing kind of what our customers are sharing with us. And let me just say, I've been fiddling with stuff now for well over a year. I don't use your products, which is yet. Probably your product is in what I take. Yes. So I think this is the reason I want you on. I think that we should all, particularly in the longevity paradox, we're looking at finding things that we can take that don't hurt us and that have the potential to make us healthy long into the future. Yeah. Okay. Hopefully 90% longer. Yeah, hopefully 90. Okay, so where can my listeners find out about you? So they can go to my website. It's myvitalc.com. If you scroll down the page and we can actually put together a coupon for your audience, if that makes sense. That would be wonderful.  So you might want to look for this one, which is this single dose. And we've got a 30, this is a sample, but we've got a 30 pack. So you have exactly 30 days of five mils per day. And that product is about 129 and you get it discounted to under $100 if you get on subscription. Again, you can cancel that at any time. So when everybody swallows deep, oh geez, $100 a month, what are you spending at Starbucks these days every day, folks? And years ago I started taking a product and I won't mention it, a longevity product. And I was talking to a very good friend and advisor and I said, this stuff is a dollar a day. Now this was 20 years ago. And I said, that's a lot of money. And he says, wait a minute.  And I said, oh yeah, the research is very solid. He said, and you wouldn't spend a dollar a day for something you believe is going to affect your lifespan and your health? And I said, yeah, good point. Yeah, I think sometimes people you kind of lose tracks of spend a dollar and make sure you're getting the right quality product, especially if you're putting it in your body. All right, well that's great. Okay, so we're going to take an audience question, one of my favorite questions. And Mark Jordan Isabel on YouTube asks, how can one heal from severe eczema? Cortisone, steroids, antibacterial remedies and antihistamines are only working temporarily? That's a great question. And it's actually one of the reasons I wrote the Dr. Gundry family cookbook, which just came out just a month ago. And I see a lot of kids in my practice and young adults with eczema. And quite frankly, eczema is a sign of leaky gut. And once you heal your leaky gut, your eczema will go away, period. And that's actually one of the reasons I started working with kids, because this is a solvable problem. Just remember that the skin, your gut is your skin turned inside out. And what happens on the surface of your gut is reflected on your skin. And that's just showing you that you got a really raw red irritated gut wall and you can fix it. And one of the ways to fix it is to get lectins out of your diet, which are really good at making leaky gut. So thanks for your question. All right, that's all for the Dr. Gundry podcast. We will see you next week. And thanks again, Chris, for coming on. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcasts, because I'm Dr. Gundry and I'm always looking out for you.


So Muna if somebody approaches you and asks I want to get into service design Or I want to become a better service designer. What is the tip you give them? Well, I can definitely Tell them always think of the customer first think what people needs There are many tools in many ways and training But if you don't understand the essence of what people need and what make them happy You want to capture this and and this is should always with it be within your mind when I was designing things because in Designing, you know in different organization the HR people would pull you a little bit and the process view and you will be Distracted on the same objective have that objective What the customer needs and you'll be able to design any product and we'll be able to support you with a lot of Service design programs and training within the government