Hello and welcome to the Burlington Mayor's Show for the month of October 2021 and thanks for tuning in again. It's great to be in the studio, second month in a row, we've been in the studio after a long hiatus and I'm joined today by our general manager for the Burlington Electric Department, Darren Springer. And the reason Darren is on with me is we are talking about what we're calling the Net Zero Revenue Bond, which is one of the two items that is now before Burlington voters for approval in a special election that is already underway. It's the ballots, if you're a registered Burlington voter, there's a very good chance that you got in the mail yesterday or in the next couple of days, a ballot that has two questions on it. One is about a general obligation bond, which is what we talked about on the Burlington Mayor's Show last month and so if you want to see a whole deep dive into that, go to the archives here for a town meeting television and you can find that show. What we're going to talk about tonight is the other ballot question, which is about this Net Zero Energy Revenue Bond, it is a $20 million item, it is an item that from my perspective represents a huge step towards the goal we've established of becoming perhaps America's first Net Zero Energy community by 2030 and what that means is that we would essentially not be burning any fossil fuels for the electricity in this community, for ground transportation and for the heating and cooling of our buildings and it's a very ambitious goal about twice as ambitious as President Biden's goal for the country to get to 50% by 2030 and yet it is one that we so far in the almost two years that we've had this goal we've been doing pretty well on. This, we're not running victory laps on this yet though and that we have a long way to go to get to this goal and we have many changes within our community that are going to be necessary to do it. This bond is an important step towards getting there so that's what we're talking about. Why don't I hand it over to you Darren, you could give a little bit of the background and then we'll get into some of the details of the bond itself. Great, well thanks Mayor, thanks for having me on the show and we're excited at Burlington Electric about the opportunity here with the Revenue Bond. As you mentioned, very few communities are taking on a goal this ambitious in the country and we need to be able to finance the improvements that are needed for the grid and for customers to be able to make the changes from a technology standpoint to be able to move in the direction that we want to move and the Revenue Bond is a first foundational step for us in making that happen. So we're excited about it, we do have some slides that we can run through. Yeah, why don't we pull up the slides before we just want to see there's the column number 862-3966, not sure if that's still going to be visible once we put up the slides but we're ready to take your questions about this or anything else in municipal government but let's dive into the slides. Excellent, so we'll pull those up here just a moment and here we go. So Net Zero Energy, just first slide here, just a little bit about Burlington Electric for folks who may not be familiar, we are Burlington's public power utility, over a hundred years old, over a hundred employees, 118 including the McNeil wood chip plant, third largest utility in the state and we are 100% renewable since 2014 and we actually went 12 years without a rate increase, coming out of the pandemic we had our first rate increase in 12 years. So moving forward to the Revenue Bond, a few basics on the bond itself, we have the authority here to move forward based on the Burlington Charter and the general bond resolution, this requires approval of a majority of voters in Burlington and it's payable solely from Burlington electric rates and revenues, it's not a city general fund obligation, it doesn't impact on property taxes, does not affect the city's debt policy or debt ratio and it's a strategy we've used a number of times in the past including. Let's not let that go by without making the point which is a really important point about this bond is it's not even going to affect your electric rates, this one very much. Well that's right, when we think about the bond we have a strategy to repay it that is going to help in the future and it actually is going to reduce upward pressure on rates in the near term while we invest, I'll touch on that in a couple slides as well but it's an important point, this is a fiscally responsible path here that we're trying to put forward. Awesome, didn't mean to take you out of the stream here but just it says this is unlike I think most people when they have their head they're being asked to vote on a bond there's some form of sacrifice that's usually being asked, I mean generally there's a relationship between when the schools come forward or the city for general obligation bonds there is an increase in taxes associated with it. This revenue bond we're really hopeful as Darren's going to explain is it's different, it to some degrees pays for itself, we're also essentially reusing revenues from refinance debt so the impact is actually positive initially as Darren just said and modest over time but I'll let you get back to it. Oh that's right yeah we'll jump to that in a couple slides. Just want to let folks know that we have a really great history of using the revenue bond financing tool including for energy efficiency back in 1990 we had an 11.3 million dollar bond for efficiency that was foundational and currently we're using less electricity today than we were in 1989 as a result of that bond and further investments that were made over the subsequent decades so there's precedent for using this strategy and we're hopeful that the net zero bond will be similarly foundational for our climate strategy going forward. So it's a 20 million dollar proposal what does it go into? About 12.3 million would go into the electric grid for reliability improvements and to accommodate new uses such as new electric vehicles and heat pumps and other electrification technologies about 3.9 million in technology systems to replace aging software and to help us design new rates and new strategies to help customers save money. 2.2 million into our renewable generation facilities and plants like the Winooski-1 hydro facility and also to convert our our peaker plant to run on renewable biodiesel instead of oil and then 1.5 million that would go into net zero capital investments like new EV charging stations in the community. The other exciting piece of this is we are going to use under this strategy a portion of our annual bond funding to double the funding for our customer incentives that are currently available and really try to ramp up adoption of these different technologies by doing that we can actually keep our green stimulus program going we can save or reduce 47,000 tons of emissions lifetime compared to business as usual which is equivalent to about 100,000 barrels of oil and we can do this in a sense to accelerate our progress on climate above and beyond where we would otherwise be. This chart just shows the dark blue line here that we really saw a significant jump in the middle of 2020 with our green stimulus we've had 1,400 customers of Burlington Electric take advantage of our strategic electrification incentives for lawnmowers for heat pumps for EVs and e-bikes and all other technologies and we actually tripled our state target last year and we're on track to do more than our state target again this year so our Burlington Electric customers are taking part in these activities and there's good reason to try to increase the funding to support our customers in that regard so these last couple of slides touch on the point that the mayor just made if we want to invest in reliability and climate progress and do so while maintaining our financial metrics with the revenue bond we would see a significant reduction in upward rate pressure using fiscal 23 as an example compared to without the revenue bond so in the near term we're actually reduce upward rate pressure for customers by utilizing the revenue bond as a financing tool over the long run as the mayor mentioned we have the ability to capture some savings from an existing repayment that will expire in 2025 and capture revenues from these different projects we've been talking about with EVs and heat pumps such that we can cover repayment in large part of the revenue bond debt service through these two strategies and put very minimal pressure on rates for ratepayers let's talk about that revenue piece a little bit just because I think it's a really interesting part of what we're trying to do here and one that I think is to agree people have questions about this I think it's you know it's sometimes misunderstood you know we have been offering these significant incentives green stimulus incentives and occasionally you get a question of like you know generally I got to see the public reaction this has been very positive and people are excited about them and many brawlentonians hundreds of brawlentonians now have used one one of these incentives or another whether it's a big one like the heat pump incentives or a lot of people start out with the most popular one is the lawnmowers right it was the heat pump is now overtaking it it has all right well that's great to hear so um the I think to some people these look like kind of government handouts these sort of subsidies and I think really the image people should have in their mind about these is it's essentially like the hotel that is going to have or airline that's going to have empty seats or hotel that's going to have empty beds for the night and to and has an asset has that they can secure a revenue for if they change the pricing of it essentially um we have this capacity uh to of electricity that goes untapped for especially off peak uh electricity um we these incentives are really I think a sound business decision on the part of BED that create that um creates more revenues flowing to to the department that every time someone takes advantage of one of these incentives whether it's a lawnmower or a or a heat pump there is a significant new revenue stream that is uh the person is going to be that household is going to be using electricity instead of gasoline and natural gas which has these environmental benefits has these financial benefits to BED of generating new revenues and this this net zero energy plan is only possible it will result in something like a 60% increase in revenues flowing to uh to the to the to the utility one successful right that's right um what we're talking about is using the electric grid to really help get rid of fossil fuel use in the heating and transportation sectors uh switching folks from fossil fuels like gasoline in their vehicles over to an electric vehicle or over to electric heating and we have capacity to do that in an inexpensive way uh use the electric vehicles an example if you're on our our charging rate and your residential customer you can charge for roughly the equivalent of 60 cents a gallon overnight when we have cheaper electricity uh compared to three four dollars at the pump so it's a hundred percent renewable it's local uh as opposed to your gasoline which is coming in from out of state or in some cases out of the country uh we're keeping more dollars here in the community and we're helping people save money so it's definitely a business case strategy uh for the utility and the customer uh that makes this work and some of these economics actually play out in this bond is just to reiterate the point the these green incentives will result in new revenues flowing to the utility that that increase in revenues will help pay off this bond and actually in a way that is unusual in bonding it somewhat pays for itself that's right we're projecting that 40 percent of the repayment of the debt is going to be coming from revenues from these different strategic electrification projects which is significant and uh it speaks to the business case of making these investments so the numbers still up there if people are interested in calling in 862-3766 um and again happy to answer any questions about this bond the other bond in the special election or anything else um that is on your mind did you have more on the presentation Darren or have we pretty much I think we we wrap that up and uh that presentation is available online as well um at the various mpa's we've presented we have it on each of the mpa websites and the city council website as well can you say a little bit more about um why upgrades to the grid are necessary to fulfill this vision and what this allows us to do absolutely so um when we think about adding new loads uh we can move some of them off peak like we talked about with electric vehicles but over time we will want to add to the grid so that we have capacity for everybody who needs to and wants to switch to heat pumps and EVs to have the capacity to do so we did some analysis as part of our integrated resource plan that we submit to the public utility commission every three years looking at what the grid upgrades would be and this revenue bond is funding the first tranche of those upgrades what we found is we need to make an investment of about uh 20 million dollars over a period of years to move our grid up to about 102 megawatts of capacity from today where we're about 80 megawatts of capacity um but speaking to the business case what we found is the new revenues from the different electrification projects will more than pay for those upgrades and in fact uh moving in this direction compared to business as usual there's about a 50 reduction in upward rate pressure by moving towards net zero so significant benefit for our customers um what we're talking about doing is switching a lot of energy use over to electricity so we want the grid to be as strong resilient and capable of delivering that for everybody and keep the reliability as strong as it's been Burlington average customer sees an outage per year and the duration is typically under an hour which is uh really extraordinary uh and speaks to the work of our our line crews and our dispatch team but also uh we've under grounded a lot of infrastructure and hardened a lot of infrastructure as well great um how how does this what we're trying to do here fit in with any of the national conversation um sometimes I get this question with the general obligation bond and we're trying to do there's you know there's this infrastructure bill that's uh out there that um we're hoping it's going to pass soon and uh could provide some additional you know significant additional funding to municipalities how do you do you see anything about that infrastructure bill impacting in the Burlington Electric Department um yes in a good way um I think there are different funding opportunities with the federal bill uh there's going to be perhaps additional dollars for EV charging uh for the electric grid incentives for customers to move in this direction as well potentially and so even though we're making some investments here that are critical that we need to move forward with if the federal legislation comes as well we'll be able to make more progress more quickly and I think you spoke to it earlier we have a very ambitious goal uh it's very hard to make this amount of progress by 2030 that's why many of the time frames are really focused on 2050 uh so moving quickly we need as much funding uh from the federal government that we can get and policy support as well let's just since uh we got a little a few more minutes here not not we're getting towards the end of show but let's talk a little bit more about um just this vision of strategic electrification and how significant this is I think it's something that still hasn't completely said in um in the sort of general public about that this is to a very large degree the solution to the climate emergency maybe 70% I think is of the climate emergency could be addressed uh through strategic electrification you kind of see it makes to me it makes sort of visceral sense when you think about what we're trying to do here I mean this roadmap essentially has all of the vehicles in the city switching from these gas burning vehicles to electric vehicles but within the decade seemed pretty outlandish when we kind of said this was the goal in 2019 it seems a lot less so now I would say like this is where the world is moving clearly with you know Tesla becoming the most valuable car company in the world with General Motors saying they're going to be all electric by but they're but you know by 2035 right like so we are really trying to push this quicker and um and then similarly on the building side you can see that you know if we pulled this off you can see how this would make a great impact wait what do you think are um do you think we're going to do this you think we're you think this this is where society's going yes absolutely I think you've seen the automakers are making those commitments driven by policy change and consumer change the renewable energy Vermont conference just finished up the keynote speaker this year was Saul Griffith whose entire strategy is the electrify everything strategy essentially we need to have the cleanest grid possible and we need to move as many uses off of fossil fuels and to the grid so we're seeing it we're seeing it in the heating sector and elsewhere too the cleanest grid is a really interesting thing and this is another reminder how special Burlington is like the big fight at the national level is they're not there there there's a big battle on how quickly the grid is going to become powered by renewables right and and what is the current stat it's like 25 currently or something like that yeah renewables and nuclear are roughly around 20 each roughly uh with natural gas and coal still making up the majority of our our nation's generating capacity the nation has 60% of the way to go still easily easily and we're we're at 100% we're 100% renewable so we are in a sense a as as one legislator that I know thinks of it a postcard from the future and and we are trying to blaze a path that the rest of the country will be following hopefully in the very near future as well one big part of that mix locally really a significant part of why we were able to get to be the first city in the country to get to 100% is because of the McNeil biomass facility the sustainably managed facility where are we on then 30 seconds on the district energy system to close out here district energy we're in phase three of feasibility work this is a project that's been talked about for decades I think we're closer than ever to making it happen and we're hopeful over the next couple of months maybe early next year at the latest we'll be able to report something to the public about our progress and move that project forward that will be big news when we have it there thank you all for tuning in great to great talking with you come back in November we'll be back with another edition of the Burlington mayor's show look for your ballot please consider voting yes on both items have a good night everyone


to respect the people who did show up on time, so. The recording has started, the floor is yours. All right, thank you very much. Hello everyone, welcome to the TSE weekly call. As always, I have to remind everybody of the antitrust policy. The antitrust policy notice is displayed on the screen for those who are online. Please do make yourself knowledgeable about this. This call is public, open to everyone, to listen in and even contribute, but we do expect people to follow the rules. So there is two aspects to it, the antitrust policy that I just talked about, and the other piece is the Code of Conduct, which is also linked from the agenda. And so please, you're welcome to participate, but behave. So with that taken care of, there is in terms of announcement, as far as I know, there's only one reminder. As we've discussed before, there is a DCI survey going on. Everybody is welcome to participate, invited to participate, encouraged to participate. I know that last week, then asked people from different projects to spread the word around in the different projects. I've seen evidence of at least some of that happening. And if you haven't done so yet, please do follow up the link and answer the survey. And yes, you might even consider doing that while we're on this call, if this is really what it takes. Even though I don't encourage distracting yourself from what's being said on the call, but I think it could be tough. Is there any other announcement that anybody wants to do before we move on? Sorry, I didn't put mine on, but I'd like to reiterate the fact that we are getting all the HGS signups for the tables, the kiosks and the videos. But I think most of y'all are aware of that by now because I think I've pinged everyone pretty much individually. But if there are other people who do want to do the tables especially, this is the part that's going to be a little bit more unconferency life where you have control over it. And you can suggest topics. Please sign up on the wiki and I'll add that to the notes, the wiki link. All right, thank you, Silona. Anybody else? All right, otherwise let's move on. In terms of quality reports, there are three that are due according to our calendar, but none of them have been posted yet. So this is my way to highlight missing parts. Sorry, sorry, Iroha has, it's a report already. I published it a little like a few hours ago. Yeah, I'm a little bit late, but still we have the report and we're here on the call to present the report if you have time. All right, well, it's okay. I mean, given that it was just posted, I can't imagine many people have had a chance to look at it. If it's okay with you, we'll just keep it for next week. I will carry that over to next week's agenda. So hopefully people will have signed then to have a look at it. And if there are any questions, they can raise them by then. Is there anything from your side? That must have been Sarah, right? Yeah, that's me, Sarah. No, we don't have any questions about that. I mean, it's a very short report.  So the report is kind of short. So yeah. Okay, no, but that's good. I just don't want to miss if there's anything you wanted to talk sooner rather than later. So that sounds good. We can wait for the next week. All right. Anything else on the report? So otherwise, please do keep an eye on the calendar. The calendar for the upcoming reports is posted thanks to Rai. They put all the reports into a couple of wiki pages. So there's a chance for everybody to see what's up. And I keep adding those to the agenda week after week. So you can easily quick click and see when your report is due. So please do keep an eye and let's try to keep the right pace on these reports. Otherwise, you're just holding it back. We've gone, I'm sorry, there's like no push in this at all anymore. Everything has to be pulled. So, you know, we used to get an email reminder or something on the chat channel that, hey, your report's due in a week, right? Haven't seen anything for the performance and scale. And so it's just, I mean, it's becoming harder to run these things when you have to sit there and pull to find out when your report's due and stuff like that. All right. Did we agree? I thought, so I thought we said we didn't need work group updates. Okay, so that's two different questions. All right, and I apologize. I didn't see that one just came out a day ago. So this morning at 3.30. I understand. But so on the first part, obviously, you know, Chris's question is relevant because if there's no report, then we can forget this whole discussion, although it still applies for the projects, I suppose. I mean, my understanding and right can tell us exactly what the status is, but we've used years. He actually went in the calendar and put calendar reminders for each projects and working groups. But it was kind of a pain to keep doing this and maintaining it. And they kind of gave up and put everything in a page instead. Is that right, Roy? That is, that's the shape of it, yes. However, I do, the reminders do go out to the mailing list, just not to every individual mailing list. So I think the reminders are only going to the TSC list. I'd have to look to see where it is in the calendar, but maintaining, because of the way that groups.io works, it's a super pain to set this stuff up. Like I can't have a calendar event that sends a mail to two lists, for instance. Okay. No, Roy. I think we received the, sorry, I think we received the mail on our Europa list, but it was like a few days ago, like we did that a lot of time. I think it wasn't like, as usual, I believe that previously we received it in like, in like more than a week even, but this time I think we received it like, pretty recently, but maybe I'm wrong. So yeah. Yeah, I doubt that you're wrong. Roy sent me a reminder for the fabric, or you know, me and the maintainers, but. All right, so maybe if Roy, you can have a look at how long before it's due, you send the reminder and maybe that can be adjusted. But it sounds like the reminders are going out. So at least we have some. I think it was at least a couple of weeks. I think I did mine because you sent out the reminder of the reminder, so. Yeah. Well, yours was a little bit weird because, so the issue with yours, Chris, the one for fabric was that it was dropped on the floor, right? So that's why yours was hand-delivered. Oh, okay, fair enough. The one, everyone else is talking about calendar reminders. Yeah. All right, so I don't want to spend every time talking about this detail, but Roy, can I ask you to follow up and check with the statuses and maybe if there is some adjustment that needs to be made. And if you have experienced difficulties with this and a feedback, please contact Roy, and so he understands that you are. Please contact the community architects mailing list or on chat, like. Okay. That would be awesome, thank you. Yeah, this is to be Roy, although Roy seems to be stuck with it. All right, so back to the question, Chris touched on though. I mean, I'm a bit confused by your statement, Chris, because this was my idea a few weeks ago. I said, I don't know that we need those working group reports anymore. And I believe you said, no, no, we still want them. So are you saying now we don't need them? Okay, so I'm just maybe misremembering how we decided this. Maybe we need to decision. Yeah, so maybe this is something that should be formally discussed and then decided on because there seems to be, we seem to be going back and forth. I think what I may have been, and again, I don't remember exactly what I said, but maybe I was focusing on those that are delivering stuff, right?  Yes, so I mean, just to make sure it is on the same page. The reason we're discussing this is because we recently changed working groups, right? And remove the requirements or the expectations for working groups in general to have deliverables. And if they have deliverables or want to have them, except for a few that were grandfathered, they would have to create task force, which are chartered approved by the TSC to deliver within a certain timeframe. So for those working groups that become just discussion forum, does it make sense to have quality reports? And that's really the question that's up now. And so it seems like now Chris is saying, I only meant to keep the report for those who are grandfathered and are delivering products like documentations and whatnot. Yeah, I came away with the same impression as Chris. I don't know if that's technically the right impression, but that was what I was operating under. I was able to get that impression as well that reports were not due unless you had a task force. All right. I mean, we can agree to that and then just, that's it, you know. Why don't we just make a decision? I make a motion that quarterly reports by projects, I mean by working groups are only good if they have a task force. I'll say got that. Can we, does anybody disagree? How do we know it has a task force? We approve them. So we should be aware of that, right? We do. Yes, the TSC should approve task force. That's part of the process. Okay. Is there a way that we could have this recorded in writing in regards to decision logs so that this can be a little bit more clear because I'm having a hard time writing out what this is specifically. I will type it into chat. Is that good enough? We can actually, we can create the decision log entry after we see that. Let me put that on the Wiki here, hold on. Of course I can't find anything. No, but we, I don't want to get bogged down with the details. Now I think the proposal is pretty simple. I'm happy to create the log afterwards to capture the decision. The proposal is, let me rephrase it or restate it. The proposal is to say that working groups that do not have deliverables or task forces do not need to submit quarterly reports. Are you creating the proposal for us? Yes, I am typing it now. Do not submit. All deliverables so we can catch the grandfathered one. Okay. Who's trying to avoid having to do that live, but. Formal proposal. Paste. Yeah, it's a good idea. Do we have to do anything to get the review by? Don't worry about it, just save it as is. Publish. Page needs a name. Oh, page title. Working groups reports. Quality reports. There you go. Okay, that will do. Everybody sees it, Rai is displaying it on the screen. Working groups that are purely decision group that needs to be the quarterly reports unless they have deliverables or task forces. Can we agree to this? Quickly? What did I say quarterly or where did I say weekly? No, no, I said quarterly. Oh, okay, sorry. No, I say, can we agree to the, no, no, what I meant is can we agree to this quickly? Oh, quickly, I'm sorry, sorry, yes, yes. I move we vote. Whatever the question. Okay, we have the proposal. It's in the, it's in the wiki. I second it, third it, whatever. I want to vote. Does anybody disagree with this? Does anybody wants to abstain? Everybody else agree? Say hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. All right, we're good. It's approved. Thank you. Let's move on. So I think a function of this then is that the calendar needs to be updated. Yes, so that'll be an action item for this, but this can be done after. That's not what means stuff now. Let's move on. Do we want to leave it in the calendar just so there's a placeholder if they get a task force or schedule them when they get a task force or deliverable? I think that'll be confusing to the chairs because they think they have. I think when they, when we approve a task force, then we can add them. And if there is a group that already has deliverables, like we have at least one, they can be kept in the calendar. That's how we do it. Easy enough. All right. So we'll do a cleanup of the calendar for the time being. Let's keep on moving. I have two items that I was hoping to be able to make formal decisions on. The first one is replacing major releases with promoted releases. We've been through this one quite a few times now. Last time I had put a formal proposal, revised the proposal based on feedback. I didn't want to call for a vote because it was, I had just put that up before the call, but we discussed it. It sounded like there was general agreement. So now I would like to formally propose it. There was one clarification I added based on the discussion we had, which a heart requested, which had to do with the fact that they are promoted releases, I expected to be initiated that the request of the projects. So, is there any further questions on this proposal or are we ready to vote? I also added a link to the criteria for promoted release, remaining the same one, the same as the ones currently defined for first major releases. So there's no ambiguity as what's there. So. I move we adopt the formal proposal. Thank you. I second that motion. Thank you. All right, maybe we do a formal vote one by one on that one, right? Can you call? Sure. Angelo. Ian Muth. Arno. Yes. Chris. Yep. Dan is out. Yes. Gary. Wait, was that Angelo answering? Yeah, it was me. It was me. Okay, that's fine. Thank you. Where were we? Hart. Yes. Mark. Yes. Nathan. Yeah. Swetha. Yes. Tracy. Yes. Roy? Roy's still not here. There you go. Have we heard Gary? He's not here. He's here. He is here. Gary. Yes, Nathan. Yes. We haven't triple muted. He doesn't know it. Nice double secret probation. He's oddly silent. That's not him. Yeah. Well, regardless, the proposal is overwhelmingly passed. Yes. Anybody opposes it? No. All right. Thank you. This is approved. All right. Let's go back to the end, Jetta, then. The other one is the one about the repo structure. So we have had that project that was led by Chris through a task force to define a common repository structure, and at least a set of files that people expected to find or to have in every repo. And so there's been some discussion, and I want to address that point now. I mean, Dan, you may have said, well, I didn't think we were ready for this because we should get feedback from the maintainers, but we have had the proposal up for a while. We discussed it last week, and there doesn't seem to be any showstoppers. And I want to be clear, just because we agree on the general idea doesn't mean we cannot amend the details later on as feedback comes in and people gain their experience. So if there's a file that people say, oh, that we don't need, or we should read that one that's not listed, we can make those adjustments. This is no different, in my opinion, than anything else that we do. I'm always in favor of incremental approaches. So, but Chris, I'll let you talk to the proposal. Yeah, so this is the, yeah, if you scroll to the bottom here. So, well, before you scroll, hold on, hold on, wait a minute. So before you scroll, so yeah, so the recommendation in my proposal is that we adopt repo linter, which is a tool that the to-do group, which is a group that was formed to sort of define some best practices for using GitHub and open source. And they developed a tool that basically goes through and does a check and says, do you have a license file? You have a contributing so on and so forth. And in some of those files, it's looking for a specific criteria characteristics of the file itself. It also does a sort of a cursory check of things like, do you have a license and copyright header in your source files? And so, if you run this tool against your repository, it comes up with a little report and tells you whether or not you pass or if you have any things that are exceptions, like in the report that I posted in here for fabric. And what I've done is if you scroll down to the end, I've mod, one of the things that we talked about all the way to the bottom of the comments, yeah. What we talked about last week was so, we wanna sort of see what would it look like if we ran this against everybody. And so I did that. And so if you click on that, just you'll see a report of every repository under the Hyperledger organization has been linted. And some of them are coming through with some errors, but those things need to be remediated, right? Like there's no copyright or license file on a bunch of these per borough. And there was a few for fabric sub-projects and stuff like that. So my recommendation is that, well, what Dan I think suggested was, let's run this by the maintainers and we have to present a note this morning pointing to the proposal and to the report that I ran here and sort of asking the maintainers, are you guys good with this? I think, as with our know, I'm happy to socialize this but I think, and actually what I found was you don't actually have to modify your repository to do this, right? You could actually run this from a directory that has the configuration file you wanna use and you can just run it against the GitHub URL and it downloads a temporary copy and that's it. And so I actually wrote a script right that you could use to just do the whole bunch periodically. Yeah, when you were mentioning that, I was thinking this could just be a GitHub action that runs on a cron job. It could be a GitHub action, yep, exactly or it could be built into your CI to make sure you're not uploading a file that doesn't have all this stuff. And so it is what it is. I tweaked it so that it created a warning if you didn't have an issue and they pull request template. I don't think those are required, they're nice to have and I think I created something else as a warning. I'll have to go through and look at the config file but basically what I did was I submitted a pull request of fabric to add the config file although you don't have to do that. Again, you just have to whoever runs the report just has to have the config file in the local directory from where they run it and there we are. So last week I remember there was some discussion about creating a local fork of the tool. Yeah, you don't have to do that. You just have to have the config file in the directory that you're running the command from. So your experience has been that with configuration you can adjust the tool to our needs. Yeah, it didn't seem like there was any way to you would have to fork the repo to change the config file but I read through the source code and see what was going on and apparently if you put either a file by the name of repo lint or repo linter.json in the project that you want linted or in the local directory from where you run it it uses that file. Okay. It's not documented but that's how it works. All right, thank you Chris. So any kind of reactions to what is being proposed? So I like this. The only thing that is confusing is that we have this task force page that doesn't match the decision page. So I believe we're just making a decision here based on the task force page? Yeah, that's my bad. I put the proposal in the task force page. I'll go back and paste it but basically yeah. Yeah, we probably need to update it but there's a link to it at the bottom. It says C. You started the task force before the decision log was created. Yeah, yeah. So that's a minor administrative detail we can tackle. I'm more interested in another aspect which is, so I don't know what Dan's concern really was because it seemed to be concerned that we would be adopting this too early and for me it's like, well, I only see benefits but part of this might be whether, I mean to me the goal is not to give a black eye to project that look like or reported as non-compliant but it's really providing guidance as to how to improve your repositories and it raises the question of like, how is that implemented on a practical basis? You guys just talked earlier about maybe having like a regular run of the tool, a linter on a regular basis but I mean at this point, I haven't heard anybody, my interesting is that we're not trying to enforce this and again give black eye to projects that don't comply as much as providing a tool for people to be better at it. So I think, yeah, so you raised a good point. So there are some files that are nice to have but then there are also some files that are required like license, right? And I think the objective here was that we would have a community that was somewhat consistent in all these things and I don't think it's really a stretch to say, you should have all of these things. I agree that maybe we don't go around beating people over the head with it but maybe share with the maintainers. Here's where you stand. You can decide whether you wanna fix these things or not but we adopt as a recommended practice that basically what's in that configuration file is what we'll be looking for. Right. And again, I mean, I've said that before, I believe that to me, I think a lot of the differences we have from one report to another today is more accidental just because we don't have in a recommended way. And I think people, when there is no recommended way they have to invent one and they invent their own way. And so just providing the tool will help convergence which is the primary goal here. Because- So one of the things why I think it should be socialized among the maintainers is not all the maintainers are tuned in to what the TSC is discussing. And basically we had a case where one of the maintainers was updating a lot of these and didn't realize that like, for example, code of conduct was one that was important should have changed. He said, well, it's in the weak heat. Why does it need to be in the code? So if we come with a sudden requirement that, hey, this is what you're doing without socializing with the maintainers, it might lead to rocky relationships with maintainers who are always tuned in with the TSC. So that's why I support socializing with the maintainers before adopting it. I don't have an objection to doing that either, by the way. And if nothing changed just the fact that the maintainers were consulted will make them feel more included. And following up on what Dan was talking about, there was a question that was raised by the Bezu team there, which just, is it okay to have a link from the file in the repo to say the wiki page? Would that be considered compliant? Or do they have to copy paste the text? Considering that these repos might be copied as zip files and that the wiki might change locations over time. I'm more in favor of having itself contained in the text in there, but that's a discussion that TSC can make in a second. We started having that discussion last week. I think my personal take is I don't have a problem if it's copied. However, it creates sort of immediate technical debt if we decide to modify the code of conduct or the security policy and so forth that we have to go through and change them all. Now, again, we could also automate that, right? Just like we did with the security file, automatically submit a pull request to everybody to update it with the change, but it's something that needs to get done if we do make a change. So that would be my only concern. And the repo venture would catch those changes too. Right. Yeah. So I'm fine as long as we're okay that we understand that there can be some other things that we aren't. Yeah. Rather than calling it technical debt, I want to vanish to look at it as it provides some, is it worth going through this effort to change it? How important is changing this policy rather than just, you know, up in Wiki where it gets changed too frivolously, putting a tiny bit of barrier to changing it makes such changes more measured and deliberate. Well, we graded it three years ago and we haven't changed it. So, yeah. The longest running debate. Who's going to play to make Chris low now? Just as playing devil's advocate here, I've worked in labs that were not connected to the internet and you would have to bring stuff in. So if there's a link to something that's out on the internet, I wouldn't be able to get to it. Do we care about that? Yeah. So this is, to get to the internet, how are we going to engage the community? So to support your point there, Mark. This is why I bring up this. This is the previous project I worked on. And as you can see, it hasn't been updated for six years, right? So this is exactly to your point and to Dano's, right? Because if it's not here, if it's not in this copy of a copy of a copy of this repo, it's gone. The Wiki and all the documentation that this refers to are gone from the internet. And maybe you can argue that that's fine because the project's dead, but at the same time, the code does live on. So I would be much more in favor of not linking to anything else online. Because also the files, when I download something, it builds rules in effect for that code, right? Until I update. But at the same time, if people don't update their copy, well, I mean, at the end of the day, it's like it can be a project's decision. There's a new version. It's nothing different than any other dependencies you have from one project to another. At some point, you have to decide, hey, we upgrade to the new version and it can be left to each project to make the decision when it's the right time. So I think there is more advantages to having a local copy with all the text in it than having a link that can be dangling because that unfortunately happens more often than we'd like. And that's the worst you can have is to have a file with just a link that points nowhere. All right, I'm good with that. All right, so it sounds like we are in favor of not having just links, but we want to at least have the content there. Of course, we could do the dirt we see thing, which is to say, to have a link at the top that says for the letters version of this, say, code of conduct, see this page. And then I'll copy anyway, but we don't have to get too fancy. I don't know that it's worth worrying too much about that. All right, but that does work if you've got a local. Yeah. Okay, anyone else, any comments? It sounds like I hear people are in favor of kind of not rushing into the decision, but it would be good that we agree that there is just the general direction we want to go, and then we can socialize it and maybe in a week or two, then we make a formal decision that this is it. Now we have adopted this as a policy. And for now, we don't have to make a formal decision. I just want to hear if anybody has concerns with the proposed approach. I have two questions. Question number one is, will the supply to the labs repose? I'm assuming yes, and question number two, Chris, is there a way, how do I run this on my repo? That was the part I couldn't figure out. If you want to run it on your, what I can do is I can put together a little readme, a little guide for how to use it. Okay, that would be helpful. Readme is pretty uninformative. I'm sure that they take clear requests. Just installing the tool is a pain in the ass, because you've got to make sure you have node up to current version, new version of Ruby, you have to download some dependencies, it's a pain. I'll put together a little guide for how to do it, but basically you can run it from a directory that has the config file in it and point it at your GitHub pretty straightforward, but I'll put together a little cheat sheet. Okay, that'd be great. And labs, yes, labs, no. You know, I think it would be a great idea. I don't know what others think. I would be in favor of that. Again, if it's not an enforced thing, but a sort of an advisory thing, I suppose. That's my thinking though, is that we don't have to enforce it, but we can say, hey, you might consider to do this, you know, so that we can kind of guide them in the right direction. Tracy has a lab steward difference. I mean, do the other lab stewards have any opinion on that? I mean, I'm fine with it. I think, you know, the intention is eventually, potentially the labs become projects, right? And if they're following through on kind of these best practices that we're trying to put in place, then it makes sense to me. Exactly, musician easier. Yeah. And as somebody with the labs repos, a couple of them, I'm perfectly happy to do my best to, I mean, it's not like these are owner's requests. So, No, that's a good point, Meeks. Thank you for bringing that up. I think, you know, there may be, I don't know if Dave is on, for instance, but you know, if we require a security file, for instance, on a lab, do we wanna encourage, you know, that people submit security defects for labs? I don't know. And I'm just against your implications. I agree, Meeks, it's a good idea. I mean, I think if I had a lab, I'd want others playing in that sandbox. That's why it's there. Yeah. And so having a contributions guide and the, The contributions guide, code of conduct, all of the other things are good. I think the only issue on the security side of things, that for the labs, it might be good that we have a standard labs disclaimer that basically says, this is prototype code at which you pay for. I mean, we've tried to write that all over all of our documentation, but having a standard place that that disclaimer is called, that would be a good thing. So maybe if we came up with a different security file, I suppose that might be, I don't know if I'm gonna go through all the trouble to report, because again, it's prototype code, basically, it's not intended to be used for production. Correct. I mean, for some labs, though, that are security focused, you still might want to have some of the security stuff. Well, yeah, see, again, I'm just... Being more rigorous is not a bad thing. Being forcing all every library pod to be that rigorous would be a very bad thing, though. Sure, yeah, I totally agree. I just think that some labs, that would be actually a really nice thing to have. And actually, thinking about this a little bit more, but maybe the rule of thumb is that if you're an active project, you should, with a capital, should be compliant. And if you're incubating, you may, right? And RC 2119 parlance, where it should is you have to have a damn good reason not to be compliant. For an active project. Because I mean, yeah, I think the expectation is a little bit more mature. It's sort of, it's part of what we're doing in the community, it's abiding by all the guidelines set by the TSE and so forth. That's one of the great, you know? So it should, but the capital should. Not necessarily a must, but there has to be a compelling reason not to. And then for labs, it's a may. Okay. So let's leave it at this for now. And there may be some adjustment that makes sense to make for the labs. But it seems like we, there's general agreement on the direction. Yeah. So let's go with this. And what I'll do is I'll go through, I'll update the actual decision log with the proposal. Yes. And you know, with what we just brought, you know what we just discussed here. And that way we can go off of that. Sounds good. Thank you, Chris. Yep. All right, let's move on. There's two more things that I want to discuss. This kind of one thing, maybe, although Dave is not here, but he marked, we have a couple of, I mean, we went through a whole list of issues related to the TSE election process. And there were a couple that were left bending and Dave has marked them as blocking. And I asked him, what do you mean by blocking? What is this blocking? And he said, well, it's blocking the staff from implementing, you know, the part of the process we agree to, which is the staff will come up with the plan for running the election that will be, you know, put before the TSE beforehand so everybody knows what exactly the expectation is. And so he's basically saying that, and if Dave is on, I'm happy to let him talk, but I believe that I captured this anyway. Oh yeah, I see Dave now, sorry. And, you know, the problem is if he's saying that if we don't address those issues, then they have a gap in what they need to put the plan together. So Dave, you're on. I'm sorry I didn't see your name first, but is there more to say on that or did I capture the crux of the matter? Aaron? Dave, are you on mute? I see his bike going, but I don't think he's coming through. Breaking up badly, I think. No, he's not coming through. Well, I think you captured the crux of it. What we, speaking for myself, I want the TSC to make these decisions so that we can have a much smoother TSC election. And the sooner it's done, the sooner we can start, the sooner the decisions are made, the sooner we can start implementing them. So it is really blocking us, the community architect staff from getting stuff going. And that's why we're asking for this.   And I need to give clear direction to LFIT because there's a lot of this stuff that's actually being nailed out right now that they're about to start doing software development on. So the sooner we can give them a very clear agenda in regards to how this would, we would like for this to be run, the sooner development can start working on it because we're doing things like trying to figure out the LFID situation versus the GitHub ID situation, identifying the different maintainers who can vote. All of that is really important qualifications that we need to give to an entity that's outside of ourselves as well. Okay, so thank you. And so I would like to go to the TSC members now and ask them to feedback because, I mean, the reason we haven't really made any effort to address those lately is two-fold from what I understand. So there are two. The first one is this TSC election voter selection. I believe there was a bit of fatigue, quite frankly.  And I saw that one of the comments I already got was, oh, let's not talk about this anymore. And so it's clear that there isn't much interest in discussing this type of issue anymore. At the same time, I do understand and challenge that the staff is facing, and I don't want to ignore that. But there was this notion of the lecture voter selection, which is entirely up to us. And the other one is observer. And if you go to the observer, you'll see that the last was that we basically said, well, it raises some privacy issue, and we should really get guidance from the governing board on this. And VP and Sarah are saying, I think that's Bolochs. And there's no issue, we just have to make a decision. So I just wanted to, without getting into the gory details of each issue, I just wanted more to get a sense of how the members of the TSE feel about those issues. Do we have an agreement that we should spend a bit more energy back onto those issues? What about this privacy issue with regard to the observers? Is that an issue or do we want to go to the governing board, which I don't think we have done? So Arno, I mean, I guess I'm trying to figure out why the last four years have been bad. In doing these elections, what has changed since the last election or the last four elections that make us think that we need to change what we're doing? Secondly, this is written into the governing into our charter, right? So if any changes were to happen, it feels like the place that we may end up having to go anyways, the governing board. Right, I'm kind of with Tracy on this. I don't, and I said this the last time. I don't understand why we're reopening this can of worms, right? I mean, we have a pretty good process for deciding who is eligible to vote. The staff has been, you know, they have tooling that can determine this.  No, but okay, but the biggest problem is not finding people who are eligible. It's getting people who are eligible to vote. So I don't understand why we think we're not, you know, picking up people because we also have an exception process that says, if you're not on this list and you think you deserve to be on the list, contact the staff. So we have a vehicle to get on there and we have a vehicle to collect who's contributing.  This isn't hard. So I don't understand why we're opening it. Hold on, hold on, hold on. This argument has been going on for a while. The charter says anyone who contributes technical artifacts to the code base. The code base has been narrowly, you know, sort of targeted to GitHub only. Technical artifact, including documentation it says. And you have set up a wiki, you have set up all kinds of other Google Docs and everything else. And that's why you involved the working group chairs to get the names. So I don't think that in every election cycle, we come to the same point, which is how do we find out who are the contributors? Of technical artifacts. So I think you should broaden your base. And I agree with Chris that the participation rate is a big problem and it is, you know, always a problem in many, many elections, including, you know, national elections. And they have ways in which you can address this. And I've already suggested some of them, which was to send out an email saying, you know, this percentage has voted, we would like the participation to be more, you know, something like that, you know, over the course of the conduct of the election. So that, you know, these are all standard methods. I agree that, you know, raising the participation rate is important for people to get, you know, represented. I mean, for the TSE to be a true representation of the community, if it is confined to small numbers of people, then, you know, you're going to get some skew in the elected body. And that's what's happening. I, it's been a concern. And that has been, you know, broadly touted. So for us, as a community, it behooves us to address these problems, not just say, oh, if people are not on the list, let them, you know, let them object. That never works, you know. Whenever you have a choice architecture that says somebody has to do something in order to get on board, then it doesn't, you know, it's another friction that is added to the mix. All right, thank you, Vipin. I mean, we, as you said, we've been through this quite a few times. And so far, I don't hear anything really new, unfortunately. But so one thing that I did hear, which makes me, you know, think a bit is, in fact, what Tracy is saying, we have a status quo that has worked for the last several years. And so if we make no decisions on any of those two issues, for that matter, things just get carried forward the way they have been done so far. And so I would actually claim based on that statement, which I think is accurate, is that these are not actually blocking. The staff, you know, should just continue what has been done until we make a decision on those things. If we don't make decisions, this means the status quo doesn't change. Now, we might want to still capture the status quo in response to those. And I would claim that we have a process as Chris alluded to. There's tools that the staff uses to build the list with the exception process and all that. We could capture all of that and just document this so that everybody can see that in response to the issue on the voter selection. And then for the second one, the default is there's no observer until somebody comes up with a proposal that really feels excited about to support there's just no observer. And that would be an easy way to solve those two issues for now and, you know, move forward. But I would claim this is just capturing the status quo. We are basically out of time. So unfortunately, there's not much time but I wanted to get a reaction to this. Am I missing something here? No, I think you got a reaction. I got a reaction. Where? There's been a lot of reaction to this, right? So I haven't even jumped in yet. The status quo is not good. And I understand inside your fields and I respect that, but. I guess, okay. So I'm somebody who's sat on both sides of this, right? I've ran the TSC election for two years. I'm now on the TSC status quo is not good. That means that the process that I created is not good. So I'm taking a bit of offense at this point, but I think that if I were still on the community architect team and I were having a problem running the scripts and doing the steps that need to be done, I would take the necessary steps to fix that as any developer would, right? If the process that you have doesn't work well, you go and you fix it. I don't think that we as the TSC need to weigh in on somebody fixing those scripts. They're part of a lab. Anybody can go in and fix them. So anyway, I don't want to get into a lot of detail here because it's somewhat frustrating for me to be listening to this conversation for the 10th time. So take it for what you will. All right, thank you, Tracy. So unfortunately, we're running out of time. So that's it for today, but I would move to capture the status quo in these issues for now and make that the default resolution and I challenge anyone who feels like this needs to be modified to make concrete proposals and how to modify them. And at least we would have a solid starting point. So that is the course of action that I suggest we take and I will move towards that. So with that being said, I want to respect everybody's time. You did make me wrong again. I'm making this call shorter, but it's all right. Thank you all for participating today and I'll see you again next week.


mesenchymal stem cells, MSCs, hold great promise as therapeutic agents in regenerative medicine and autoimmune diseases based on their differentiation abilities and immunosuppressive properties. However, the therapeutic applications raise a series of questions about the safety of culture expanded MSCs for human use. This paper summarized recent findings about safety issues of MSCs, in particular their genetic stability in long-term in vitro expansion, their cryopreservation, banking, and the role of serum in the preparation of MSCs. This article was authored by Yue Wang, Zhibo Han, Yongping Song, and others.


Broadway's My Beat from Times Square to Columbus Circle, the gaudiest, the most violent, the lonesome-est mile in the world. Broadway's My Beat with Larry Thor as Detective Danny Clover. From somewhere beyond the threshold of neon, the happy holidays beckon to Broadway, and the wilderness of plastic and chrome dons its ribbons of tinsel. Garlands of evergreen are hung against the shriek of subways, and behind plate glass, puppets with shrewd mechanisms perform their frenetic dance. The metallic music flows out of the horns of loudspeakers. The women walk slow, sway gently to its holiday rhythms, and everywhere the image of gaiety is reflected in spangles that whirl on winter's wind.  It's the merry time, and somewhere within it a phone call, a drunken voice that pleads you into a desolate wind-littered street, into a tenement scarred with shadows, into a room also desolate.  That proves I had nothing to do with it, doesn't it? I called it in. I waited here for you. Me, along with those two, just so I could tell you about it. That proves... Bob. Robert Colker. I got a wife, and a good name. I don't want to get mixed up in this, mister. The woman? That's Mrs. Baker, Charlie's wife. Boy, is that boy got a hangover waiting for him when he comes to. Imagine, you and Charlie enjoying yourself. You get invited in for a little nightcap.  She was strangled. Yeah, yeah. That's how I figured it, too. When we walked in the store, I said, look, Charlie, boy, look at your Mrs.  Tried to make it to her, but he passed out on the way. Hey, mister, unassented. You and Mr. Baker were up together. Then you came home. Yeah, but not like you think. We were to the office party. Charlie and me, we got to joining desks. Big deal office party. Booze and paper cups, dance a little with the steno. You've been wanting to touch all year. Then you take Charlie boy home. And look, mister, OK, if I could home now. I done everything could be expected. All right, Mr. Colker. Tell her you won't be home for a while. And wait then. Watch the barrier of faces form at the doorway. The same faces that gather always when sudden death is done. Faces tempered only by the quality of shirts, neckties and hairdos. Quality this time, tenement, frayed. And in a while, the medical examiner, the nod toward the dead, the black satchel opened and the stethoscope that hears no heartbeat. The official pronouncement that a woman named Lucille Baker, age about 32, married, no children, have been strangled to death. And the other nod to the two men who had been found with her. Take them along, get out, go. And back to the office and give orders to interview everyone at the party. Turn Mr. Baker over to the officer whose extracurricular duty includes the sobering of suspects. Question Mr. Colker again, his story sticks. Then a door opens and a very sober man walks in. I don't believe what they just told me. I don't believe it. What are you doing here, Bob? I just told them what happened. I told them we came back to your place. You wait outside, Mr. Colker. Sure, sure, whatever you say. Just take it easy, Charlie boy. Sit down, Mr. Baker.  Lucille. I want you to try to tell me just what happened tonight. The office party. I went there, I was having a fine time. Yes, I was, I was having a wonderful time. I think it was the end of the day at first. I wanted to go home but they wouldn't let me. They said, look at all this free booze. Lap it up and forget it. And now... Go on. Well, I tried to call Lucille three or four times. I don't know how many times until I was having a good time not to wait up for me, but the line was always busy. What else do you remember? Bob said, come on, let's go home. When we got there, that last thing I remember. Lucille lying there. It sang to myself just like this. I am drunk. You think you see all sorts of things when you're drunk and this is one of them. That's not Lucille. I'm not even home now. I'll wake up. The room shone suddenly of everything but a man sobbing. This is only one in the long array of grieving that has been displayed to you over the last years. The grief for the love dead sometimes with laughter of strange texture with silence sometimes, anguished bitter. And sometimes this like this man's and always the walking away from it. And release him and his friend Bob Kolker. Go home, sleep. The next morning back to the tenement where a woman had been strangled asked questions through inch-open doors and the children of the tenement shrivel away from you as if you were a cold wind. The doors that are never open to you the furtive whispers and scurrying behind them, the giggles. And finally at the mention of the dead Mrs. Baker's name a woman who begins a weeping suitable for police callers invite you in. Take him from us like that, choked like that, cast away. Please, won't you come in? I'm Ruthie Alexander. Let's just shut the door, shall we? My neighbor's curious, nosy, so pathetically nosy. May I get you something? A chocolate tea? Something with a bite to it? No, thank you. You knew Mrs. Baker? I knew Lucille.  You were saying you knew Mrs. Baker well. Better than she knew herself and the promises life offered that girl. Although Lucille wasn't pretty mind you not in the real sense of the word but she had her qualities hidden kind of sly. It intrigued you men. You're saying that she... Nothing of the sort. Why, Lucille, the poor unimaginative creature and I say this of her and I was a best friend mind you and have the right. Lucille backed away from men. I honestly think they frightened her. She was married to a husband who loved her. Of course he did, of course he did. Why shouldn't he? She could have even had a man like Teddy Fletcher. Teddy was dying for her. Lucille told me all about it. Fletcher? A fellow who works at the Dorsey Company where Lucille's husband worked. I told her so many times a man like that Lucille they don't grow on bushes. They... You know something. What? That Lucille. She was a deep one. Sly like I said. I wonder. I just wonder if she and Teddy... How awful of me. But will you have a cigarette at least? I'll light it for you. Draw the first puff.  King sized, cork tipped, gratis and all. Give her back her solitude. Leave her to her tearless sweeping. Now she'd have something really to cry about. She'd wasted a cigarette. To the offices of the Dorsey Novelty Company Incorporated Lemonade. Be greeted, be given a catalog concerning current novelties. Be frowned at because they didn't want it. Be listened to. Be ushered past the office force and slogans about geniuses at work and courtesy and cleanliness and accuracy. And be shown to a cubicle. Yeah? Mr. Fletcher? Yeah, what is it? I'm Danny Klober from the police. I'm expecting somebody from down there. Sit down please. Thanks, sir. I'm trying to get some information. Yeah, I know, I know. All right, you know. Tell me what you know. Just one thing. You think I killed Lucille? Did you? I was in love with her. Did you kill her? I just told you I was in love with her. For two years now I built my plans around day-to-day plans. That adds up to be in my life, doesn't it?   Tell me about last night. I was at the party. Everybody got loaded, not me. You don't drink, huh? I want it's better to say sober. Last night was such a time. Oh, why? Last night Charlie Baker was here getting tanked. Last night Lucille Baker was home being lonely. Then you left the party because her husband was here and went over to see her, is that it? It's the way I planned it. It didn't work. You want to tell me why? Yeah. I called Lucille from here during the party a lot of times. She said, I'm a wife with a husband. Stay where you are. Admiral Bourne, huh? A wife if it killed her. Then it killed her. Then you gave up and went home. I needed solace. I found Isabel by the water cooler. Isabel? Isabel Mitchell, pal and buddy, sweater and skirt. We smiled at each other over paper cups, linked arms and went to her place. Drank and did childish things like pin the tail of the donkey. Drank, drank, drank.  I want to talk to her. I guess she's still at home getting rid of last night's head. She didn't show up today. Nice kid. Where did she live? Two rooms on West 37th, 905 apartment two. Look, Mr. Clover, that Hamilton wall clock says noon and it's never wrong. You're not going to join me for lunch, are you? Thanks a lot. And the ride now to West 37th to the block of the Brownstones in the low rent in the corner grocery store. And next to the tailor shop that advertised proudly how it had held the line since 1950, find the number 905. Walk past the door to apartment one and a few steps more to apartment two. Apartment of Isabel Mitchell. Knock and get no answer. And open the door. Walk in. The living room decorated in row house decor. Dregs of last night's drinks. Coolage modern and empty. And the kitchen. The light still burning. The perpetual distance sound in the exposed water pipes. And strung from them. The girl. The girl twisting this way. And back. Only slightly. The lifeless girl. The murdered girl. You are listening to Broadway's My Beat written by Morton Fine and David Friedkin and starring Larry Thor as Detective Danny Clover. Confidentially Edgar Bergen has a split personality. And it's hard to say whether he's funnier as the Harris Bergen or as that saucy figment of his own imagination who does the harassing Charlie McCarthy. We leave it to you to figure out between the laughs. Every Sunday night on most of these same CBS radio stations when you hear Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy. In the days before Christmas Broadway puts on its flashy clothes and the flashy smile. Everybody's on his way to Con Santa Claus.  The brunette who tells you to pick her up for lunch in the lingerie department. The redhead who behaved all year long. And while the reindeer dash across the tundra of the spectacular's the recruits from the Bowery shake their little bells and nod lovingly at tiny tots. Get out the Christmas list kid. That's where your friends have been all year long. And at headquarters, consider other things. Official musings. The dying of Lucille Baker. A woman strangled. Consider what chain of circumstance led from her to the murder of another, Isabelle Mitchell. Consider and be interrupted by a police sergeant named Geno Tartaglia who sometimes had things in his mind. I got a headache Danny. I'm sorry to hear that. Why don't you take an aspir- Such condolences are touching Danny and I thank you for them. However, my symptoms are psychosomatic. A word Mrs. Tartaglia read to me last night. From a book. It's the type headache which is prone to deep thinkers. So science explained to Mrs. T. And she to me. You've been thinking deeply, Geno? Indeedy. As concerns the current situation in the murder of Lucille Baker and the subsequent same of Miss Isabelle Mitchell. A theory to whip. Mr. Ted Fletcher is a killer. Murdered the woman whom he loved, Mrs. Baker. Then murdered the girl he flirted with, Isabelle Mitchell. But Isabelle was his alibi, Geno. I got my headache making it sound reasonable to me Danny. But I think I know why he killed Miss Mitchell. Yeah, I can think of a reason too. You mean like that so soon? Well, it had figured, Geno.  The way it stands now, Geno, Fletcher can't account for his actions the last night. Nobody remembers when he left the party. Let's just assume he left with Miss Mitchell. He took her home and left her. You've been peeking into my brain, Danny. He left her, went to see Mrs. Baker. Came back to Miss Mitchell and asked her to be his alibi. She refused. Indeed, Danny, indeed. So she was the only one who knew he was a killer. She refused to help him. He killed her. Our theories make a lot of sense, don't they? Maybe. Have Fletcher picked up, Geno. I'm going out. Okay, Danny, where can I reach you if I need you? At that novel, The Office. Maybe I can find out why that happy party had so much murder in it. That's right. Show me. Some guys will show them shiny badges. Better read the small print. All they care is that the muscle man was a favorite to ask. You threw with it? Yeah.  I produce novelies like that by the carload. Just that'll be sure you weren't giving the girl a fast shuffle. Some questions I want to ask you, Mr. Dorsey. About time you got around to me, huh? It just so happens I'm the head man in this little enterprise. Maybe the personnel didn't get around to telling you. They didn't need to. I saw your publicity on the wrapping paper. Yeah. Sorry, it didn't occur to me I need your permission. Oh, it's not that, kid. It's just that I got a happy enterprise here. You walk in, talk, murder, talk, it spreads gloom. Everybody gets unhappy until I think of something. The office party the other night. That was one of your thoughts? Yeah. Yeah, it was. Happened to be my birthday. I let it be known in a loud voice. And before long, the personnel is pitching dimes into a kitty. A good dime was had by all. What did you think of? Who? Dad Fletcher. Personally, I can't stand the guy. Good worker, but I can't stand him. Just keep talking. Fletcher.  You know what I mean? You got to agree because you got him tabbed for killing Mrs. Baker, I understand. I tell you, it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Charles Baker works for you, too. Give me your thoughts on him. Baker is a good boy, nose to the grindstone type. I got a lot of plans for him. Been to his home, made his impress the boss type of food, met his wife, the former Mrs. Baker. Yeah, and you have an opinion. Hmm, dull woman, plain, boring. You know, Baker's better off without her, in my opinion. I tell you because you asked. And Isabelle Mitchell who also worked for you who was also at your birthday party who was strangled, murdered. Hmm, kind girl. Had a kind word for everybody, but everybody proved between. Fletcher meets her at the water cooler at my party. Isabelle gives him the kind word, Fletcher takes her home. That was a busy, busy night for Fletcher, wasn't it, Guy? Anything else, Mr. Dawson? That cuts it as far as I'm concerned. You too, huh? I bet you got loads of things to do, just like me. So goodbye, huh, Guy? Of course. Won't you sit down? I'm Lois Nolan. Yeah? I work at the Dorsey Novel Day Company in the office. I run an IBM machine, time study cards. I don't guess you noticed me, did you? Seems that I do. I guess you're wearing another dress. No, I was wearing this dress. You just didn't notice, that's all. Why have you come here, Ms. Nolan? I wasn't at the party last night, so your men haven't questioned me. I see, and you want to be questioned, is that it? Well, I was a friend of Isabelle's. You were? Though we had differences of opinion, as they say, about friends, boyfriends. Personally, I like fellows from whom I can better myself. And Isabelle... Yeah? She was not the discriminant type. Life, she once said, was a laugh and a song. Look what it got her, some laugh. Yes, now if you'll pardon me, Ms. Nolan. Some laugh. If you knew where I just came from, you wouldn't say some laugh. Where did you just come from, Ms. Nolan? From her uncle's house. In buckets, that's the way he was crying. He didn't say a word. But if you could have seen his eyes, those tears. Then he said, Lois, I cannot cry anymore. Isabelle was a good girl, and now she is gone. I didn't know she had a family. Because that man is a nervous wreck. After all, Isabelle did for him. Where does her uncle live? In Brooklyn. 2020 Stockton Street. I hope I have been of some help since Isabelle was a dear friend of mine. I was always broad-minded enough to forgive the things. You've been a great help, Ms. Nolan. Thank you very much. And the house in Brooklyn. Like all the other houses in the long file, the ceiling paint, the sagging porch, the parlor curtains drawn aside to reveal the Christmas wreath, then drawn further to permit a clearer view of the man who walks their quiet street. And having noted your passing, open their windows, crane to see at whose door you'll knock. Then in faraway voices, announce it to friends, relatives, and neighbors. The voices drain away. Then for a moment, the stillness is almost complete. Except for the wailing of vessels in the harbor. The cry of wind trapped against street lamps. Then break it. And the man in the woolen sweater wonders at you with pale eyes, washed away eyes. Oh, you must be from the mission. I phoned. I have the magazines all tied and ready. I'm from the police. About Isabelle. Yes. Come in. You'll take your death a cold. I haven't been to claim about it because I didn't know if it was right. I'm just her uncle and Isabelle moved away from me over a year ago. I thought maybe she got someone closer to her. That's not why I came. No? Then why? Well, I thought maybe you could help us. Maybe you could tell us things about her. It'll help us find her murderer. Isabelle came here to live with us when her mother died. Then my wife died and Isabelle stayed on. It was nice when she was here. And then she went away. Tell me about it, Mr. Clayton. It was nice. Gay, exciting. Young men called on her, brought her things, brought me cigars, sat and talked with me while they waited for her to dress. She was pretty, real pretty, worth waiting for. You remember the men who called on her? No, no, just boys, nice looking fellas. And you haven't seen Isabelle since she left? Oh, yes, I didn't say that. Not many times, but only quickly.  Things, presents. They weren't really from me. They were from this nice fella. He must have liked Isabelle a whole lot. You know how I know? Tell me. Well, he'd bring her these things and make me promise not to tell Isabelle they were from him. He said he'd tell her when he came when he was ready to. And I'd say, Charlie, Charlie Baker, nice fella. You know, he made me tell Isabelle I was giving her those things. Look at me. What would I have to give a girl like Isabelle? This is the first time I've been on a place like this, Mr. Clover. I've passed the jail many times, but I've never been in. Mr. Baker. Detention cells? You mean they're not permanent? You're not sure about Fletcher?  He's a killer. We'll find out. I still don't know why I'm here. I want to put your story together with his. Oh, then you'll know, huh? Then we'll know. Oh, Fletcher's sleeping. Well, they're conscience like his. All right, come on, Fletcher. Wake up. Wake up, killer. On your feet. I brought you a visitor, Fletcher. Hi, Charlie. Hi, Charlie. Hi, Charlie, that's what you got to say to me? You my friend killer. Break it up, I said! Break it up! Yeah. What am I, crazy, dirty, my hands on him? You know what they got for you, killer? I brought a chair, and you're going to sit in it. Fletcher, I told Baker how it was between you and his wife, Lucille. I'm glad you did. We were going to tell him we didn't get a chance. Lover boy. Killer boy.  Is that what he keeps telling you, Mr. Clover? That's why you just keep him in the detention cell, huh? That's right. Look, Charlie. All right, I'm looking. You've got to understand, Charlie, about Lucille and me. I loved her. She loved me. I thought I would have married her. Loved her? Loved Lucille? You? She wasn't a beautiful woman, Charlie. You know that she was a gentle woman. Talking with her, you weren't afraid of the world anymore. Well, Fletcher, if that's what she did to you, that's what she did to you. Didn't she do that to you, Baker? You were pretty broken up when she died. Did you ever have a wife who was murdered, Mr. Clover? No. Then don't tell me how it should feel. You and my wife are Fletcher.   Yeah, sure, sure, sure. What happened last night, Fletcher?  It was all over and you couldn't remember a thing, so you say you didn't kill her. Is that what happened, Mr. Fletcher? I told you what happened. Get him out of here. Just a few more things. About a girl who worked at your office also murdered Isabel Mitchell.  I asked you, get him out of here. No, I want him to hear something. There's another way this thing adds up. You could have killed your wife, Baker. What are you talking about? That was at the party. Everybody knows that. Everybody will vouch for me. I don't know a party like that. People coming in and out. Nobody remembers much about anything. You're building something, Mr. Clover?  No one would have known the difference. Then play drunk, have a friend take you home.  Ever see, Charlie? You might as well as cops take a little while to get used to it. Now listen, Clover. Then early the next morning, cry on my shoulder. Be released. Go around to Isabel's place and whisper to her the happy news about your wife's being dead. You're crazy. Why would I go to her? Because you were crazy about her. Crazy about her? Isabel? Isabel? What are you laughing at? He's right, Fletcher. You shouldn't laugh. Mr. Baker was crazy about Isabel. Gave her presents. What are you talking about? Why? Isabel didn't even know where they came from. After you've gotten rid of your wife, you could tell her, but she wouldn't have any part of you. You killed her. I love with Isabel. Her? A girl like that?  A girl like that when you had your own wife.   Isabel was sweet and she was wonderful. You know how I know? She wouldn't look at me because I was married. That's the kind of a girl she was. She was good. I killed my wife for her and she took pity on me. She was good. But she still wouldn't look at you. So you killed her. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I had no more to live for. Why should she go on living? Why should somebody else have her? Who else would have done for her what I did for her? Nobody. Just me. She didn't want me.  It's an enchanted island this Broadway or a desert of dust. Look at it and it's a magician's pitch with golden mirrors and fountains that plume with jewels. Then you blink, it all dissolves. It's a crumbling wall corroded with pain. It's Broadway, the gaudiest, the most violent, the lonesomeest mile in the world. Broadway, My Beat. Broadway's My Beat stars Larry Thor as Detective Danny Clover with Charles Calford as Tortaglia and Jack Krushan as Muggevin. The program was produced and directed by Elliott Lewis with musical score composed and conducted by Alexander Courage. Featured in tonight's cast were William Conrad, Harry Bartell, Peggy Weber, Lou Merrill and Herb Butterfield. All the best fun-making from Arthur Godfrey's daytime shows on CBS Radio. That's what you hear every Sunday afternoon on most of these stations when King Arthur Godfrey and his roundtable hold court here tomorrow afternoon and remember to enjoy King Arthur Godfrey and his roundtable every Sunday afternoon on CBS Radio. Bill Anders speaking and remember those lovable rascals Amos and Andy are here every Sunday on the CBS Radio Network.