Thank you so much for coming. This is going to be a bit of more technical presentation, so I just want to know how many of you are web developers here? Okay. So it's a bit at the bridge between designers and web development. Also, I'm going to present how we implement this concept inside the Xfiki, but if you have something similar in your product, I would be very curious to see how you did it. So for the people that don't know what Icon teams are, the most similar concept are our color teams. So user always wanted to have different colors or their favorite colors. Then in the past, we did that with alternative stylesheets. So if we wanted to provide for three colors, you have two different stylesheets, one with red, blue, et cetera. But when the bootstrap framework became more popular, and actually when preprocessor had variables in CSS, then the customizations of the themes become much more complex. So not just colors, but now you could change the typography, you could change the borders, the margins, so a lot of other things besides colors. But one thing that was always missing was the ability to switch the icons. And for some that might be something very not important, so why would you do that? But for designers or for users, or if you want to have your interface consistent and maybe go through the new technologies changing that it's important. So I'm going to tell you a bit about the history of how and what themes we needed to apply to our platform. So and I'm sure many of you that contribute to open source project hit this wall too. And the themes I'm going to compare are silk, glyphicon, phantasm, and material. And I don't know how many of you used the silk icon. It was an image icon, so in 2009 it was used. So nobody from here? You still do? I used to, okay. So in that period of time silk was very popular. It had the three lines and it had over 1,000 icons. So for something that was really in that period, it was very nice to have. The problem with silk was that it was only 16 pixel by 16 pixel. And also in that period of time, Internet Explorer 6 was popular and Internet Explorer 6 had problems with transparency. So people needed to use the GIF format. And when we finally dropped Internet Explorer 6, we needed to go all over the code base and replace that GIF with PNGs in order to have a proper transparency. And this might sound like an easy change. So just the final name is the same, just change the format. But if you need to go in multiple places, and also if you're extensible, and you have extensions that you cannot control, and you rely on outside contributors to change them, that might be a problem. For the record, this is how an interface would look like with silk icons, and this is how it will look with phantasm. There was this switch from image sets to font icons, and all the web started to be monochromium. So before we had lots of colors on the icons. Now everything was looking like this. But one of the big advantages why people made this switch to icon sets were because in that period of time, we needed to provide responsive interfaces. So 16 pixel by 16 pincels was not yet enough, and we have the mobiles and lots of resolutions. So also in that period time frame, Bootstrap started to became popular, and when they launched their two and three version, they provided by default the glyphicon set. The glyphicon set was not a free set, but they had some sort of agreement, and it was a nice alternative. One of the downsides of glyphicon was that it only had 200 in icons. So if you were a platform and you wanted to switch to this new font technology and to Bootstrap, you had like a downgrade of the icons you could use, and if you have applications and those applications have dedicated icons, that was a big problem. So we also wanted to find an alternative, and that font awesome was one, 700 was kind of okay for us. One note more about glyphicon. If you're using the Bootstrap three version, and now you wanted to switch to Bootstrap four, so Bootstrap four launched like two months ago, you had another problem. Glyphicon was erased, they were not bundling anymore, they tell you that you should look for alternatives.  So this might be, you might have found yourself in the situation of again needing to change the icon set you are using. Again, a comparison of how glyphicon and photosim looks like for users, they might say it's looked kind of the same, not many differences, so a good alternative. So now we want from icon image set to switch to icon set. So we have a problem of how we are using these icons inside our code. So on image you're using the image IMG tag, while if you want to use phone sets, they say that you need to use a span or an italic tag, and you give the name of the icon in the CSS class name. So it was not that simple anymore, like switching from GIF to PNG, you needed to switch the whole tag. And this was not the only problem, the problem is that if you want in your interface to have icons, there are two types, there are inline icons and decorative icons. So for example, and all the font sets, they were promoting to use the inline version. So in the inline version, you said this is the image, and then you have the label, compared to the decorative images, where you have the label, and the image is on top of the CSS in the background image. And there are multiple ways why you would want to have the decorative version, one of them is print, so if you want to have your page printed and you don't want those images to appear on your print, they should be external, also separation of concern. So the code is in one place, the styling is in another, and another reason are also screen readers. So when a screen reader goes over the syntax, and it finds that image, it will try to read it, and it might be an image, it might not make for the sense, it will crowd the user with things that it doesn't need, or if they were to use the fonts, that font maybe is not supported by the screen reader, and would read something like Gibrish, and so the flow of the user, when he read something might be disturbed. So we have different ways of entering sets, and also different ways of using them. So we need to find a solution for these problems. Another thing was that half the years passed by, the web standard community started to say that, okay, everybody is using icon sets, but maybe they were more hackish and they were not meant to be used like this, and the proper way to use them are SVGs, so everybody should switch to SVGs, why are we using icon sets and font sets? Another thing that in 2014, material design specifications become popular and everybody wanted to use them, they were very well documented, they were also consistent with Android, so if you had a mobile application or a web application, there was something that you might need to switch to. This is how material design looks compared to Fontason. One thing that you might notice is that material design has slimmer icons. Let's say that this was fixed by Fontason 5 when they released, they provided three different sets, so they have regular, solid, and light, but the solid and light versions, you need to pay for them, so still one set. Yeah, and that's how material looks. Also, the version four of Fontason had only the icon font, while in material, if you wanted to use the set, you could have used individual images or image sprites or individual SVGs or SVG sprites or if we were to take the common denominator between sets and try to find the solution that it goes, at least for fonts, the same way in material design, they are using actually typographic ligatures. Instead of providing the name of the class in the name of the icon in the CSS class, they're using inside the content. So again, another discrepancy in usage. Mom, so a lot of people are kind of confused of, okay, if it's a new project, which version should we pick? Should we pick the font technological version or the SVGs or the images? And mostly it depends on what you want to do, but as a general consensus, SVGs are considered more powerful and that's because the browser styling is more extended and also if you want to have animations. But in our case and what I'm describing here in the icon teams, usually use more icons for actions like save or edit and those icons are pretty basic. Doing animations on them is pretty overkill. So in this particular example, if either if you use fonts or SVGs, they are kind of the same thing. It depends if you want to do advance stuff on top of them. Okay, so what we want to do is no matter what icon sets we have, we want to be able to write it in a particular, in a single way. And that's why in Xfiki, for example, maybe it's a complicated solution, but that's what we had. We developed a service and you call the service that is the icon service and you tell them the name of the icon. And no matter what is the active icon theme, it will translate that in whatever syntax is needed. So this solution applies if you know that you have a big project and it's going to stay for a long period of time and you might want to switch technologies. It's useful when you have customization. So one user will want to have, I don't know, colorful icons or other we will want to have a special technology. So this is where having this abstraction layer came in handy because it will rapidly allow you to change the icon. And another thing, if you mark all your icons with using this system, all the icons will be consistent everywhere. So I'm sure you've seen open source project like they have some icons from one set and others because they didn't have the time to switch everywhere. Here you're just using an abstract version and it's changing from the set. Okay, so this is how it looks like on the code base or definition of icon themes. So we have two sections. One is general setting where we define the icon theme and then is the mapping. So for example, on silk, you would tell them that, okay, this is an image set while compared to font awesome that is a font set. And if you want to render it in HTML, you're going to use the image tag while on the font you're going to use the span. And this was important for us to provide multiple renders because wikis usually have their own syntax or support multiple syntax. One is their wiki syntax or markdown or whatever. And remember the example I gave you with the creative icons and inline icons. If you're having multiple renders, you can say, ECSS, I want this icon to be rendered using background image. So that was another use case that we needed to think about and solve. Okay, and the second part of an icon theme is doing the mapping. So for the mappings, we have like 250 names that should be defined by all the sets. So for example, if you want a home icon, in silk it should be house or in font awesome it's home and in home. But in your code, you just write home and depending on the mapping, he will know what icon or a glyph to bring. And if you're thinking of implementing or using a similar solution, I would ask you to reuse the work we did for these sets. And I also provide in the reference, there are other websites that do this mapping because the mapping can be kind of hard. So for example, in font awesome, you have just one icon that is useful for home. But in Ecom Moon, you have like three. Or in Ionicons, you have like four. So which one you pick. So here the designer or the person should be careful that all the icons should be consistent. And this decision you need to take. And those are fortunate examples. But if you want, for example, to map the add icon in material design, this will be all the solutions because they have generic icons like pluses and pluses with squares and et cetera. But they have also very specific. So add the user or add an icon. So depending on your application and what type of icon you need, you might need to extend the names of the icon theme you support. Okay, and what is nice about this solution is that you don't necessarily need to have support for a set that is well established. You can create your own set. So there are some icon set generator. And you can go there and select like, I want this social icon from this set and the social icon from the set and they generate you an SVG sprite that you can use in a project.  But it's not just that. You can consider this also from a performance point of view. So instead of embedding like 1,000 icons since you're using just 20 icons, make your set smaller and just load those icons without thinking about the others that you don't need. One thing to know is that since there are so many technologies when thinking about icon, icon themes try to find, as I said, the common denominator. So one feature needs to be supported by all the sets and one name for the icon needs to be present in all the sets. So some sets maybe they don't have an icon you need to find the replacement or maybe something generic. But if you still want to do advanced icon stuff, this you need to do them outside of icon themes. So examples of advanced stuff you might want to do with icons. So for example, animations and rotations. For sure the image set will not support that. So you still need to do them in the classic way but at least you will know that all the rest they will be easily changed or stacking. Fontasum had that ability to put multiple icons on top. So for example, like here and say that the camera is banned, this will need to be separate or there are some version of icons that them being on the SVGs and SVGs you can individually control different aspect of an icon, you can create your icons to be colorful. So when you map your set, you map everywhere to be colorful. And as I said, this is an alternative to the old image sets that were very colorful. Some sets for example, they have three different icons for the same. So that is zoom and depending on the resolution of your screen it might be bigger or different style like here. So the details you know they won't be seen on the mobile. So don't put the dots, put them only on big resolution. And another thing, some sets have support for right to left or left to right reading. So example of list or even all the arrows. Left might be the other way in that other perspective. Okay, so instead of just choosing one or SVGs or font or images, if you have this abstraction layer or this mechanism of easily switching you can support multiple and let the user decide what he wants and for example, if you need to create an accessible customization of your project for some people, provide them with the fonts or the icons that they need. And these are the other examples that I give. Maybe you needed to change the license or you wanted to be more performant or unload just a finite number of icons or maybe you were using a very small set and then you wanted to expand to multiple because you grew. All these are reasons why you should think about having this kind of system. And I know this applies for very large project and the open source. We kind, there are some organizations that span over the years and need to extend and they are the particular users of this use case. Okay. So thank you. Do you have any questions? Yes. I assume you have looked at a lot of icon sets? Yes. I don't know how to answer that. Floppy disk, no. Excellent. Yeah, because we don't have, I'm not using floppy disk and this kind of icon. I don't know how to answer this particular question. So I don't know. There were some like here, like the noun project where you could try to search for the floppy disk and see what sets they provide that icon and see if that set applies to your particular needs. Something else. Who from here is using SVG's icons in their project? Okay. And font sets? Okay. So the others are using images? Who is using images, no? Okay, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. So do you plan to switch from one technology to another or do you see reasons why you would want to this switch? So if you still plan to use images and you want to switch to another set, my recommendation would be to have a set that provide SVG's and maybe export the image format from that SVG. If you want to paint. So no, no, no, no, no, no, no, for doing vectorials and doing images, it's in Scape. So, yeah, that would be good to create them. Okay. So thank you so much.


Okay, so let's begin. We're in downtown Montreal and for first question, could you please state your full name? Sure. My name is Steven Hunt And where were you born? I was born at Kentville, Nova Scotia. Okay fellow Maritime Maritime, right? Yeah, and what did your parents do? My dad was in the army. So I also grew up as an army brat. So with that Travel all over the place and relocated all through Canada My mom worked as a as in the retail sector as a as a clerk primarily in in retail Okay, and you as a child what were your interests or pastimes? Well because I grew up on army camps and military bases You know I was pretty familiar with what I was moving on around as whether it be airplanes or tanks and And yeah, I played a lot of sports. So that was another good thing I guess about growing up as an army brat that we had access to Hockey and baseball and soccer. So it was good. It was a good good good life And when you went to school, what were your strengths or interests there? I think yeah, you know just the just the ability to learn, you know, I did well in school and I Think I was pretty well interested in everything probably probably with the exception of math But but most everything else and and did you have an idea of kind of what you wanted to get into? Kind of at the end of school. No Because I was from a big big family parents didn't have a lot of money So if I wanted to go on to university that was gonna be a challenge. Yeah, I thought about that coming out of school or getting to the end of my my school, but Economically it wasn't possible at that time for me to go I I looked in trades as well tried to become a carpenter for example, but it was a massive lineup to get into even a pre-app course and So I got a job in mining and with the intention well money was good and I'll probably go back to school and Remember one of the first guys I work with in the mining industry. So what's your plans kid? I saw you know, I'll work her for a few months and probably go back to school and I Remember those these words like it was yesterday. He says well You know once you get the paycheck here, you won't be selling shoes at Kmart. I didn't know what he meant there But I do now So I never went back I stayed a minute. Okay, and what were your what was your first job in the mining industry? I was I was working as a drill helper in the mining industry and first time I'd ever seen a mine And also I remember vividly Going to work there thinking wow, this is like a science fiction movie, you know, it means massive equipment and Mud and rock everywhere was quite a quite a shock to the system What was it my first mine was island copper was at the import hardy or outside of Port Hardy was a camp now close but On a north tip of Vancouver Island And what were you my copper copper mill of them and that was the two primaries so from there where did your Career take you in the mining industry. I then went to work at Afton mines Which was one of the first tech owned mines tech corporation is one of the one of the premier It's still one of the last Canadian mining companies left. So I worked for them after mines outside of Kamloops, British Columbia and Then I I went on to staff with the steel workers negotiating in the mining industry So what got you into the steel workers? Was this the first union you were involved with? No, I was with the operating engineers first and I think I think what drew me in was You know, I just saw some pretty nasty stuff in the mining industry and when I was in Port Hardy the death rate and Injury rate was quite high and and to me it didn't make a lot of sense Here we are in an industry that should be pretty safe, you know, other than the size of the equipment In the nature of the work, I mean acknowledging that it wasn't going to be safe like working in an office but but We used to say Worker died there every six months and it got so common that we expected it, you know So when somebody lost their lives or was seriously injured, we just said well, you know, it's about time You know, that was sort of in keeping with what happened That troubled me and I thought, you know, there's got to be a better way And that's probably the closest thing that drew me into the labor But it was just the realization one day that something was seriously wrong It could be a lot safer and people shouldn't die for a living What do you have examples of the nasty things? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know We had we had a fellow go through the idlers on a cavera belt for example and you get pulled into a long long long cavera belt he died instantly but You know what you think about it He was using a dehandled shovel to clear idlers on the bottom But now there's a law that says you can't use a dehandled shovel But it took a worker's death to get to that law, you know We had a we had a worker run over by one of those big big haul trucks in an open pit mine Simply because the driver couldn't see them now now and you know put that mind You'll see they all any big buggy whips with lights on them and lights on the trucks and Common sense stuff that wasn't being applied. You know, it's kind of like the Wild West, you know running gun. Let's just get the work done and you know, if somebody Becomes a victim of that That's just the cost of doing business. So that that to me troubled me So you decided to go to join this was not the United Steelwork No, it was the operating engineers. That's where I started and then and then Stayed on with the with the steelworkers when I relocated to to after mines in Kalman so that was a steelworker search and I went to work you know on the job just fighting and got onto a bargaining committee and Started fighting for for workers rights at that time all workers, right? So not just health and safety, but everything, you know compensation Rules with respect to how people get jobs and how you get trained It was all important at that time because it was a lot of favoritism I saw, you know if you as well as I called it if you're a Red Apple boy, you get all the training you want it if you If you if you if you question some some of the stunts that supervisors were pulling say you probably shouldn't do that That would cost you an opportunity.  Keep working in the mining industry or did you really kind of quickly go into more full-time? Well, I worked I went when I went to work for the for the steelworkers. I Serviced in the mining industry. So primarily I worked in the mining industry, although I did service in other industries as well most of my work at that time for the first 20 years anyway of my career was full almost full-on mining. So it was bargaining arbitrating You know, I'm just dealing with the day-to-day problems that miners have You have examples of very difficult Whether it's bargaining or events that you have to deal with joining this the union Oh, yeah, I mean my first my first set of bargaining was with tech and We couldn't even we couldn't agree on where to meet And was that protracted that difficult we used to call it pick handle arbitration. We just hit each other till it stopped hurting, you know and It was tough. It was tough to agree on anything they fought the company fought really really hard to keep Keep us away from anything with respect to their right to manage. So it was difficult and first first round of bargaining a Participated in Resulted in a three-month strike. So it was it was arduous difficult nasty bargaining Now you you're also wearing a t-shirt you mentioned which has to do with Westray Yes, the Westray mine disaster stopped the killing enforce the law. Yeah, stop the killing enforce the law Yeah, so could you tell us a bit about Westray the disaster and then a bit what happened? Well, sure I can on May 9th 1992 the Westray mine Catastrophically exploded and it killed We think instantly 26 workers. So it was only 26 people underground to kill them all. So that was the That was in Stelerton, Nova Scotia In Pictor County depressed area workers went to work and 26 of them never come home. So I was involved in the inquiry at the Westray mine inquiry So I give testimony At the inquiry as one of the only union witnesses called the the mine was non-union We were in the process of organizing the mine when it exploded. We had enough cards to apply the morning it exploded But Obviously, you know the mine never recovered. We did apply For certification and we're certified at the Westray mine and we did it symbolically In the memory of those workers that died and those workers and families and communities that were profoundly affected and we still support the family groups at At at what well around around Stelerton. So Trenton, New Glasgow. So that area So we're still still president of the community. We maintain the memorial for this for the for the 26 minors and And interact with the family groups. Did you work on that bill at all or yeah? I did I worked on the that what after the inquiry after the public inquiry It was interesting because I was asked specifically During the inquiry two questions. Why do workers go to work when they know it's unsafe? and the second one was was What about the regulations that were in place at the time of the explosion should they be changed and the answer to the second question was yes The the legislation and Nova Scotia in 1992 was antiquated For example, there was more language in the legislation that protected the pit ponies and pit ponies for people that Don't understand or don't know mining history. We used to bring ponies underground and the miners had to take care of the man of water and we had to feed him yet, you know and He couldn't scratch them if you scratch them or rub them on the sides of the mine you get serious trouble That legislation was still in the books in 1992. I've been a pit pony underground for probably 75 years, but it was still there Very little to protect the workers You know in 1992 so that was a no-brainer And later workers go to work what it's unsafe In 1992 and Hector County and even today in 2016 workers go to work because it's economic heroin They get mortgages. They get pickups. They get kids to put through university and And the money is good so often times workers will do things that they know full well they shouldn't be doing and they do it and We're trying to educate workers to say you don't have to do that refuse to do the work if it's unsafe don't take a chance and recommendation 73 from the Westray Inquiry was recommendation to the federal government to amend the criminal code to put in The law we call it the corporate murder bill, but it's really criminal negligence causing death So if your actions as a CEO or a member of the board or a senior management person You're responsible for the production or whatever whatever that it whatever work that enterprise carries out and if you don't take Percautious to protect the health and safety of workers Then you may be criminal liable criminal liable for the death or the injury of that worker So that's what we pushed. We had the law passed. I worked on the lobby We what we law actually lobbied the government three separate times Before the law was passed it came in 13 years ago. It was unanimous and that was Exceptional in the Parliament of Canada because about back that time we had the reform party as well So all all five parties in the in Parliament agreed to pass the Westray bill And our fight is still continuing to get it enforced and and do you think it has proven? No, no, it's it's not been applied very well And that's why we're running this campaign now Stopped killing it forced the law because the law is not broken. It's just not enforced. So, you know, we know in Canada, for example There's about a thousand workers that lose their lives because of work every year So so think about this about 13,000 workers have died because of their work since the Westray bill was passed To date there's been one successful prosecution and a jail sentence only one in 13,000 and we can Give you many cases Where we think that criminal negligence did occur and workers lost their lives Or were seriously injured and there's been no enforcement and no political will to do so Is there a specific industry in which it's more common? No, I think it's across the board.  That's the paradigm shift that would cause a change in Canadian workplaces Because if people started looking over their shoulders and say yeah, I'm responsible for the bottom line of this mining company I have to report to the shareholders You know that we're making money or losing money and this is why I also have to report to the shareholders of my Decisions and the decisions of our board and management Caused a death then we're criminally responsible and we could go to jail Not a rock the boardrooms in Canada and that's what we're trying to do and again We don't favor putting people in jail But when you're negligent, it's the only part of our society where you could take a life and there doesn't seem to be any real consequence There was a case recently was no with scaffolding In Ontario met the Metron case where yeah where five workers fell that's the case that was prosecuted Yeah, and the foreman get three and a half years in jail, you know people are good not enough, but That's what we're saying. It's it's it's it's the simple fact that the criminal code was changed because of deaths in the mining industry Let's move on. Let's go. Let's let's enforce that law Let's remember those miners at at Westray and they're and they're Unfortunate contribution to the history of Canada and mining So that you say that's the only one that's been enforced. Yeah, well, there's a couple that there's been plea bargains on So there's been some charges like primarily in Quebec But the rest the country is lagging behind now maybe you could explain a bit how you got from From where you began and then you know so we're here to be in a director today District three. Yeah, district three, which is Western Canada Western Canada for for for this purpose is Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC Yukon Northwest Territories in Nunavet So as we sometimes joke as we sometimes show bigger than most countries but That's our area and we we cover all kinds of industries mining as part as our primary mining enforcers are primary industries But we do everything in between as well so pretty pretty big area and and I started again in the mining industry came out on staff as the state workers service to the mining industry and and Ran for election. So, you know, I was elected now About 13 years ago and as as the director of district three and have been there ever since but but I think it was a reflection of my work and and and and my drive to Change things for the better, you know and not run from a fight ever, you know, and you know take on difficult issues And I think with that that was born with my My original my original jobs in the mining industry, you know, it was really like I say peck handle arbitration when we started Do you have any Cases where you worked or because it's better worth mentioning at least I have to do with big mining companies Yeah, sure. I mean I I I participated in in you know on the health and safety side with mining regulation review That was always difficult as well because again mining companies They don't inherently want to hurt somebody. They just I mean nobody does and I be really gross They unfair if I said that But they have to be regulated they have to be and somebody has to oversee what's going on It has to be a third-party with with with some conviction to to stop practices that are dangerous or unhealthy So I did a lot of work in in in that throughout Western Canada in several jurisdictions. So that was always entertaining I also had had the and this was a real privilege I worked on on at the ILO and Geneva On a mining convention that centered on health and safety of miners around the world So so so my experience in Canadian mining. I think really helped because because when you're working on a convention like that You're working with people that have no laws in their country or any laws. They have or not enforced and in mining because Canadian mining companies are so big and so multinational I could be talking to a Peruvian miner that works for a Canadian mining company could be tech and And we could really explain to those workers the differences between Canadian mining and and mining and Peru Same equipment same processes Compensation is not very good the way people are treated is oftentimes not very good You know to our standards mean Peruvian standards if that was the country we're talking about you know, they're paid. Well, probably better than most but You know what we do say to them is the commodity you're mining whether it be copper gold silver doesn't matter. It's a mind and Peruvian pesos and Sold at US dollars. So the margins are huge. So we're gonna help on health and safety There's a language that I can talk about and it doesn't matter what real language we speak Everybody knows that when you jam your fingers in something it hurts So that language is really simple that it's an international language if you're breathing dust in and it's it's it's gonna cause silicosis It's really not hard to explain to people but for the most part that disease has been eradicated in Canada You see rapid in the mining industry. We don't see very much of it anymore and there's an easy way to resolve that, you know by ventilating and and and water so That's that's rewarding. I enjoyed those trips You know to help Workers around the world traveled all over especially in the mining industry worked in a lot in South America work with the National Union miners in in South Africa as well as they were coming out of apartheid and You know really learning how to be a union I mean nobody has to tell South Africa and how to stand up and fight but But they were dealing now with companies and in a culture that Where they have rights they didn't have before so You know it wasn't just good enough to say we have right you have all these rights You know how to use them. So we we helped and Continue to help with that. So all that's been very very rewarding, you know And again drawing the link with Canadian mining companies has been helpful as well they They're always friendly when we show up in different countries. They don't like it, but and we know that but They don't want to chase us away because it's embarrassing at home So so when you go to when the nice silver's good at other countries Is it always in relation to Canadian companies in other countries or could it often be foreign companies? Yeah, sometimes it's for but most often it's Canadian companies or just mining in general So we know we know for example Rio Rio Tinto is an Australian company, but they're all over they're all over Canada for example So we run into Rio Tinto workers everywhere and we tell we we have a Rio Tinto conference that we participate in and we tell We tell stories about what they're doing in Canada We also hear stories about what they're doing in other countries, especially developing countries And we hear the horror stories of what they do or HUD Bay Hudson Bay mining and smelting I just saw a court case coming out of Out of I'm not sure if it was Honduras, but but anyway, it's somewhere around Central America I think I just saw it where they're charged in a Canadian court with atrocities With respect to farmers and the families of farmers pretty nasty stuff They're denying obviously and they have the right to do that But it's interesting that we we are now seeing a lot more of that and the connection with With not only mining unions, but environmentalists and NGOs and in different countries is pretty good Yeah, that must be getting tricky and tricky. I guess because of how international and Intermingled the business is becoming or has become already. Yeah, I think so And I mean my Canadian mining companies are aware of that now and they're fighting to ensure that you know Laws in Canada don't change too much and they fight hard Yeah, you know, they like it the way it is and most are Responsible say that most companies most mining companies don't go to hurt people or or take their land away or poison their water They they try to do their best they could do better and again oversight. I think it's always important for a mining company Have you seen the change to not only because of the the pressure of the unions but also the pressure of I'd say in the last 10 20 years. There's now this whole sustainability Push whether it's various stakeholders Yeah, I know I think they changed reluctantly. They did they're kicking and screaming all the way there But they changed and I think it's for the better. They still resist But they'll have a hold out a whole department now all these major mining companies on the environment and sustainability And they you know, they put nice statements out and stuff like that and every now and then they screw up fairly significantly, but but for the most part I think they are trying and and they're They are I think Trying to mine sustainably everywhere because the consequences obviously are very very serious And they are aware of the downside of not mining sustainability. Yeah, that's a threat. So they got that one Now these maybe maybe you have no information on these, but I just figured I'd ask and that's a Anything about the worker and management relations for DeFasco or stelco. No, I I don't know. No, no, no, okay All right, and now Goma. No, okay. No, perfect. Just figured I'd I'd I'd ask well, we can move on a bit to maybe some more social questions towards what we were Leaning on the first one is about women In the workplace and how I asked everybody that how present or absent have women been throughout Your career and you could look at both you could look at more the Union side and also the mining side. Well, I mean, I think what I first started with the steel workers It was I think we're 95% white male. So, you know, we didn't our union doesn't have a hiring hall So we don't we don't draw people in through a hiring hall. The employers have to hire So the mining industry is safe to say there was no women in the mining industry when I first started I was involved in one of the very first projects where women started to come in and that was simply out of necessity The mining company had such a high turnover.  I remember those days very very well. It was hard to to see when we got hired and You know, no facilities was no safety equipment.  They couldn't do they physically couldn't do this or they couldn't do that and and and and those sisters that started out proved everybody wrong, you know and I think today I see some companies that are progressive enough to hire women understand that You know women can do any job a guy can do trades Equipment operating it doesn't matter, you know women can be trained just like guys can be trained and Provided that you ensure that the facilities are there for them a talk of washroom change rooms Basic stuff that you'd expect in any workplace. If you take care of that, it's good Obviously the equipment for women boots hats, you know The equipment that women have to wear the safety equipment It's all there that you people can access it quite easily now. So there's no barriers That should be in place for any sisters to get employed. I see in some places wonderful results Others still, you know, we we have a problem, you know, there's some minds that refuse to hire women They don't say so or the hire their men office jobs only and restrict them But there's some underground mining operations that haven't had women in them ever and She's I don't know call me call me naive, but there's no reason for that Other than somebody made his decision not to hire women But I think we're making inroads I think we're doing all right, you know, we can do better and we have to push for that Yeah, no it is it is increasing. That's true. Well, yeah, I'll tell you this that I know we took It's a great story because it talks about this with in bargaining in 1989 with tech at Highland Valley Copper. We merged two agreements So we had what we called back then an office and technical workers agreement that was primarily women and And production of maintenance that was all guys and we put the two of them together then we had to get to the wage scale and we thought well, how do you slot people, you know, one collective agreement and the acute story was Receptionist receptionist had a type 40 words a minute and have something called a well modulated telephone voice I don't know who would judge that but that was written right in the collective agreement The end of the day, we were able to say well, look at if you hire a laborer with no skills no skills Laborer gets maybe four dollars an hour more than that receptionist that has to have a college or university course Type 40 words a minute and have a well modulated telephone voice. How's that work? So in the end, we had the we had the receptionist for example and all those jobs went up Dramatic they some of them six seven eight dollars an hour overnight Because we just simply merged the sisters primarily in that bargaining unit into the Into the other bargaining unit and it was a nice nice success story early on So in 89 that happened. So I was really proud of that It was Tak Highland Valley Copper one of the big big big copper mine and in British Columbia, yeah Now Met a question and that's the question of Aboriginals yes, and if through your history you have stories of the relations between the unions the mining industry or certain companies and Aboriginal peoples from Whether it's PC whether it's sure sure sure if I mean that's a tough one Because because over the I know lots of first nations people have come to work in the mining industry a good steel workers They do really really good work and I just simply reject Some of the things I've heard from management on this question. I ask them all the time You know you want a source of workers. There's a first nations First nations nation right beside you or five of them surrounding this mine seems to me You should be able to draw people in there and I've heard bluntly.  Well, you know what if you hire a temp and you and you and to make it That's a success It's not a failure and the other eight maybe the timing wasn't right Maybe they're in their life right now. They have more important things and remember we're dealing with with people that haven't had Opportunities to learn, you know, for example, how do you take a person's never driven a car and say we're gonna make you a truck driver in a mine How's that work? Do you not think that that person's intimidated to the point where? They simply say I can't or I'm afraid, but I don't want to say so we really have to take steps to To to to make workplaces much more welcoming not just say the words. We actually have to do the actions I find that's deficient in many places Having said that there are some mining companies that are pretty good some or not and We're trying really hard to to negotiate At least the opportunity for employment for First Nations It's difficult and it's difficult to work with some of the some of the First Nations as well because there's a lack of trust They don't know who we are You know oftentimes they think well, you're adversarial. That's culturally foreign as well and You know, so we're in there saying no no no well to go sheet will negotiate positions You just find the people to come to work and what will do that and we've had some pretty good success some Not so successful, but we're trying The good one in historical terms for you that might you might want to look up as is an agreement called the Dona Lake agreement And it was at Placer domes mine in Northern Ontario. Are you familiar with that? I know Placer Dome, but well the Dona Lake mine Dona Lake and Dona Lake was it was I believe it was called the Muscle White Mine. It's now got to be probably 25 years ago We negotiated that agreement after the band negotiated with Placer a land use agreement and the land use agreement basically was Frought with quotas. Well, we'll hire so many people will do this will do that and they just went through the motions I got to those numbers Okay, we've done our Quote and that you know, that's move on They came to us and we took the land use agreement actually Bargained it into the collective agreement. It was innovative very innovative for its time. So for example Most collective agreements are predicated on seniority Subject to abilities, but if two people have relatively equal abilities the senior person gets the job In the Dona Lake agreement we went further and we said look at if there's two people competing for the job And their skill sets are relatively equal First Nations person will get the job That was Shockingly foreign to us, you know and And well, we were proud of it and we had people that as again Had no education to speak of Had no real life skills other than you know real life On a reserve which is pretty tough for people And we we made them into real miners, you know with real real careers and It was I was really really really pleased with that. We've tried to replicate that in numerous places I don't think we've had the same success as that ever. But again, it's lack of trust Both from the employers governments And and the nations themselves and then there's politics and all of that which is Which you have to come to learn How to how to how to try to get through and it's it it takes a lot of time and patience to get there, but it's good work So the policy in that line was that it wasn't just like a affirmative action where it was like a percentage No, no, it was direct. It was absolutely direct that uh, you know, if you were a member of the band then you had you had Preference in a lot of places, you know for training and then and then just Simple stuff who we had a provision in that collective agreement at wild rice season Well, right while rice gathering is traditional in that area so when while rice When the harvest had to be done people were given time off work without penalty to gather Gather rice if you're on your way to work and you saw a moose You took the moose because that's what fed your family You weren't denied your job because you stopped to shoot a moose on the way to work You just came in late And there was no no issues over there was at start but Sooner, you know in time we all learned to work with that said, you know this guy You know, that's that's what happens when when you live On on reserves or at that time on reserves that are remote You took care of your family first which might mean Your extended family might be your mom your dad your aunt your uncle But you were going to provide and that was cultural and It was difficult. It was really difficult. I can't say it wasn't but But I was really proud of what we did there and And again, we try to we try to replicate that constantly we always oftentimes talk about don't like Better successes there and and in the opposite way were many of these first nations able to Adapt themselves to the to the workforce. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it was that yeah Yeah, there was I mean time is not linear often but but people did and it was unique and we had some funny stories You know you'd have you know a guy that was you know doing something in the mind He was employed and he'd have something else to do. He'd send his brother And we thought well that was kind of funny but You know that's life and you have to adapt and uh, you know, I I'm really in favor of that. I think You know life doesn't stop because there's a different way to do things You know, we just have to adjust and clearly work doesn't stop that or has been at the ground for a million years It'll be there for a million more We might it be delayed. We might be delayed for four hours or six hours or god forbid a day But we're gonna we're gonna get the work done now, um throughout your career what um, are there specific Issues that you believe have been pretty much solved or we've seen you know from past decades really Don't exist Well, I think we've made some inroads on health and safety, especially the health part, you know, where I said earlier in the interview You know, we've seen the eradication almost of silicosis and some nasty Uh diseases that took miners lives. Um, I I think You know health and safety talk about mining history. We had the first ever strike over health and safety in LA at lake. Uh now 41 years ago, I think it was and because of that Every worker in Canada has the right to refuse unsafe work has the right to know what hazards exist in the workplace and Has the right to participate on health and safety committees. It was our work And uh and the work of the LA at lake miners that brought that to every single Canadian that's a huge accomplishment, uh that You know was born in the mining industry, uh out of out of real necessity. I mean they were killing workers And even today, uh, we see workers still dying of cancers because of their exposures in the uranium mines so so I I mean, I'm not happy about the genesis of how that happened But but I am happy with the results Uh and and and we're still pushing to make sure that People don't forget that and don't forget the sacrifice that those workers gave And as there's still today one Hey there multiple but one Really burning issue that that needs to be tackled right now. Uh, I think uh, I think just workers rights obviously pensions, uh, you know, we've done well in most of the mining industry although there's an attack on pension plans by mining companies a needless attack, but uh But it's there nonetheless They make so much money in good times I tease them all the time. Uh, I said you guys should mine grapes because you're really in the waning industry You know when they make phenomenal profits, they're happy, uh, and when they're not They're not happy But on average they do very very well, uh, you know over the cycle of the commodity prices and they do well, but It's interesting. I tease them too.  You know the cycle's going to drop. It's predictable I I think that kind of in the mining industry we go through those cycles With Needless needless conflict, uh, because if if we cut together and said, okay, we all know the industry We all know we're we're gonna have highs and lows. So let's adjust our our approach that I've applied with mining companies to try to do that to no avail when the price drops they come after us It's predictable So I'd like to see a change in that. I was like I ever well, but That's a problem. Yeah Yeah, that's actually You mentioned it there was mention with that a A while ago because of its cyclical nature. It's kind of it affects a lot of the bargaining. Yeah, you know The salaries even yeah, yeah um a few uh few last questions, um one this one no wrong answer really it's a your opinion So this one's kind of a a year full but in your opinion. Are there any events? People disasters anything whatsoever that you believe must be mentioned when discussing the history of unions and the natural resources Well, I think there's uh, oh, I think there's a number of them.  Um In uh in the mining industry in Sudbury Uh, I did a lot of work on the health and safety side environmental side before anybody you talked about the environment It was in Sudbury. I mean like the environment in Sudbury Especially in the you know the 50s and 60s. Uh, he was a real pioneer Paul Falcowski was another guy that worked For the steelworkers He was a real health and safety activist. He's uh, he's He's I think he stays or he lives in Toronto. I think he goes to florida for the winter. He's retired But he he did in a vein of creative fight back campaigns before we knew what fight back was and You know, there was a cbc canadian program. That's this hour has seven days. Yeah, he exposed On that program with a hidden camera when cameras were bigger than this room The plight of workers at the smelter in Sudbury Uh, you know the exposures and uh and really did You know hard hard dangerous work, you know back then because the police would arrest you and beat you know and uh It was top vince ready Who was a uh a steelworker? um Who worked primarily in the mining industry and did all this stuff and you know in the far north I mean we used to we used to call them trap miners So you'd have a miner where they go mine to mine every two years or when the mine shut down they would move on Uh, he he was a champion for uh helping those workers because oftentimes and I remember him giving me a lecture once about pensions Uh, when I was much younger and I saw you know, they just paid me I don't have to worry about a pension and I get a lecture I'll never forget and he says look at I work with miners that were broken and destitute when they retired They made these companies millions of dollars and through no fault of their own You know, they worked for a company that went bankrupt or shut down and uh, you know the riches they took from the country They took and they kept and the people that earned those riches were left You know shattered, you know, their bodies broken their lungs you know damaged And uh and their mines oftentimes were were were shot and you know, they lived in skid row So he taught me lessons about that that I think they're important to know and also also He knew the the miners al king who's now passed away al was uh Was the western director of the uh, my mill and smelter workers, which was regarded as a communist union back in the communist days and he uh, He was branded a communist and was not allowed to travel to the united states ever He was barred admission in the united states because he was a communist But he was a trade unionist first not a communist He was a trade unionist and anybody was a communist who cares especially in canada, but we had the u.s Anti-communist shit going on so he was uh, he was a great activist and a great unionist And he he he did his fights in in the mining industry and smelting industry He he represented workers all over Um all over western canada, but primarily british columbia small rathole mining operations that Showed up and you know once they exhausted the high grade or they were gone Uh and uh and the workers of trail at the primary led smelter in trail. He uh, he he worked there and Wrote a book actually called red bait and uh pretty good book funny funny stories. He told stories with a funny twist and Uh, you know, we miss him but uh, he was he was a great contributor to the history of mining In western canada anyway, so he's he's one that is worth mentioning as well I few uh two two last questions versus, um, what are you proudest of? throughout your career I think uh, you know bargaining our collective agreements and uh and doing health and safety So two of them I think health and safety Uh simply because of this the work that we do in health and safety, you don't see or you see it I see it but uh, but takes a long time And and there's no way to quantify the work that we do because if you save somebody's life, how do you know? You know if you do something your actions to prevent Illnesses or serious injuries? If it saves the life I talked earlier about west red if we can encourage a manager or a ceo To make a decision to put safety in front of profit And it saves a life Who knows that's our work That's what we do I think as well on bargaining when we take A collective agreement And bargain improvements and wages pensions and benefits Oftentimes our members come in off the street. They have no skills We ensure that they're trained. There's language that enables them to be trained either as uh Equipment operators process operators trades people They get a decent salary.  You'll be able to have a car You know That's what we do and and we get I think no credit for that in the mainstream media And generally in society we're often seen as uh your greedy bastards you guys are You know, it's all for you. You fat cat labor leaders I think what we do is for society is uh, it's is so so important and uh You know, we see this playing out in the united states right now We're here a little bit in the in the last election here Where is the middle class and who creates them if not for us than who? There's the question if not for us then who would do it think industry You think the mining company would pay people 45 bucks an hour? Are you kidding? Do you think they've volunteered? Do you think that the ceo of tech or valet or Hudson Bay mining smelling wakes up in the middle of the night says I couldn't sleep tonight or last night because I make so much money And I'm getting up today to share with my workers. Do you think that would happen in real life? Shit, so so so I I think the work that we do Again, it comes to that last question if not us then who? So I'm proud of that Thank you Last question and that's if you were speaking of someone much younger like a student for example Um, that student could be thinking of getting into the mining industry. Yep.  It it pays well You know you you really The work is interesting. It's really not mundane Same thing every day. It's it's it is it is a good industry to be in and and it As long as you take care of yourself and don't allow Bad things to happen to yourself With respect to your work It's a good career great career for people Well, thank you