Welcome to Dare to Dream. This is Debbie Dashinger, and a thrill as always to have you here with us today. A little bit later, I'm going to be bringing on the American actor and TV host, Sean Stone, to hopefully have some really out-of-the-box conversation, especially about what's going on right now and some of the perceptions and information you may have that is not common knowledge right now. This show has been nominated for two People's Choice podcast awards, as well as for some Webby awards. You can subscribe to Dare to Dream. It's available on over 40 syndicated outlets, and subscribe on Apple and Google podcasts, as well as Spreaker, YouTube, BBS radio, Pandora, iHeart radio, et cetera. Please leave a review. It matters because people who love this conversation can more easily find it. We are ranked 200 in self-improvement on Apple podcasts in the USA. And we're also ranked under 100 in the entire global reach under Apple podcasts. And I think that's due to you. So thank you for listening and for helping our numbers get out there and helping our message get out there. This show is sponsored by Dr. Dane here and Access Consciousness. And if you are interested in energy shifting, quick results. Go to Dr. Dane here, H-E-E-R, com, as well as accessconsciousness.com. So today we are asking the question, in your lifetime, what cosmic desire are you playing out? My guest today is Sean Christopher Ali Stone, who has been a spiritual seeker all his life, studying meditation and global religious traditions since his father took into India, Nepal, and Tibet at 10 years of age. A student of history at Princeton University in Oxford, he's a published poet and has previously written the non-fiction history book called New World Order. As a media personality, he has hosted the interview program Buzzsaw on Gaia, as well as the new show Watching the Hawks for RT. He has acted in films such as JFK, The Doors, Savages, and Fury of the Fist and The Golden Fleece. Sean is the director of films such as Greystone Park and the documentaries Fight Against Time, Oliver Stone's Alexander, A Century of War, Hollywood DC and MetaHuman. Sean is accessible on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Sean, welcome back to Dear to Dream. It's great to have you. Thank you, Debbie. It's a pleasure to be back and to, as you say, to be here to put some ideas outside the box and push the envelope. Yeah, the first thing that's notable to me in your amazing bio, it's always weird hearing your own bio, isn't it? You know, it makes me feel like I've done a lot in my life and I feel like I've done, you know, just very minimal. So it's always a nice, I think it's a nice reminder that, you know, I think each of us has accomplished a lot more than we realize. Nice, yeah, there is already a legacy being born there. So your father took you to India and Nepal and Tibet at 10 years of age. Talk to me about that. What did that open up for you? What kind of illumination was created there? It's a great story because, you know, I came as a kid at that time, 10 years old. I think I was spoiled American, you know, from a good background, you know, I had a lot of willpower. A lot of children have that, but I especially was a very stubborn, willful child.   It was like, you know, whatever I wanted to accept my fingertips. And all of a sudden you go from that, you know, privilege that we have in America, we enjoy in America. And, you know, in America they hide poverty. If there's nothing poverty here, but it's much more hidden. It's much more, not so much about the idea of, how do you say, the extremes are actually more hidden in a sense here where it's like, you know, people are poor, but like, they might still have a television, right? They might still have, you know, some of the basic amenities like air conditioning and things like that. Whereas when you're poor in a place like India, that's a poverty of a complete nature, where I literally saw a mother with her infant child dying in the streets, right? As a, you know, as a 10 year old kid seeing this experience and recognizing the nature of poverty that was so different. It was so beyond anything that you could experience. Yeah, probably in parts of America, I'm sure in parts of Mississippi, in places like that that are almost third world. Yeah, that exists. But the actual direct experience of seeing death, right in front of your eyes, disease, really just nothing, people with nothing. You're living in squalor, right? Living in little, you know, complete homelessness, destitution outside of sky rises. We're seeing that a little bit more now in America, obviously the growth of homelessness, but this was a different extreme. And so I think it was for me in a wake up call to say, wow, I've been so materialistic. I've been so attached to things that, you know, obviously like I was talking to at that time, I remember I was 10 years old, there was a Dalai Lama, not the Dalai Lama. So I was a young Lama, a Panchan Lama or something that I was talking with. And this Panchan Lama was my age.  He just was in his being as a student of Buddhism. He was in meditation, he was calm. And here I was and I'm like, where are your toys?  Like I need stimulation, right? We have so much to stimulate us here in the Western material world. And there, you know, people just, the way of being is, it's a little bit different. You're more maybe in tune with the moment and the experience of just, you know, finding joy in the small things. So it shifted my entire worldview from that point forward. I was very stricken at heart, torn in my heart between, wow, like this materialism of the West and like all these things that we want, the American dream and everything you dream you can get. And I'm like, but is that really what makes us happy? And I'm like looking at the squalor, this destitution and so I really, that was the beginning of my trajectory as a student of history, of social, of society, of sociology, of human nature and trying to understand like what is it that we're really doing on this earth? Because if it's just to aspire to have more goods and things, I don't see us any happier as a result of it. I see, you know, plenty of Americans suffering and still like in that rat race. And yet I could say that there's more joy in sometimes than seeing the people that are living in squalor, but they're just happy to be alive and grateful for the little things they do have. They're more human and engaged as human beings. So that's the spiritual path. And that's really what opened my vision to the idea of, okay, what is a spirit that really unites us as humans and guides us and that we are on, we have to awaken the metaphysical awakening journey that I realized we were on. And I knew it was coming to America and it really came post 9-11 for me because I started to look deeper. I'm like, great, this is a wake-up call.  We ignore it. And the rest of the world, they don't ignore it. They look at death every day and they live with it. So how can we start to confront death so that we can become more spiritual, more connected, more here, more present? You were inspired recently to take this philosophical collection of poems written in 1927 by Max Ehrman called Desiderata. And you wrote this really lovely illustrated audible book called Desiderata, A Cosmic Fairy Tale by Ali, Your Chosen Islamic Name. How did the idea of Desiderata compel you to dive into poetry and put this out at this time? Yeah. So you mentioned the Max Ehrman poem Desiderata. I think a lot of people have heard it. It's like, go quietly amidst the noise and haste. Remember what peace there might be in solitude.   I mean, there's that kind of language in it.  You know, you have a right to be here. I mean, these are the notions in that great epic. And it's a very small poem. I have it hanging in my desk. My mother, I think, gave it to me when I was a kid. And so I always loved the sentiment behind it. And then when I started writing what became Desiderata, Cosmic Fairytale by Ali, as you say, it's unaudible. That story was, to me, it came like a download. It was almost transmitted to me. I just wrote it out over the course of a few weeks. But it's essentially the poem of a fall of two lovers who are in their paradise. It's like, you know, the Adam and Eve story, right? They're finding each other and all of a sudden they're cast out of their love affair, their ideal world by the sorcerer. And the sorcerer is jealous. He wants that love for himself. And so through the incarnations on earth, it's a timeless journey of the man's character questing to find this woman, this love. And it's like he finds her in the form of the mother, in the form of the crush, in the form of the seductress, in the form of a companion, in the form of his jealousy for a woman. And so it's like all these different forms that he finds her in. But it's his journey to essentially realize that there's a transcendent nature to this reality. There are things that transcend this world. And so it's a very philosophical, lyrical journey, as you know, through the emanations of what it is to be human with this feeling like we're not really from this world. We're not really, you know, we're not ending here. We're not from here. But we're journeying for the purpose of learning and expanding in this poetic dance that is life. But ultimately, this is not the end. This is not the end of the game. It's just, you know, this is just one iteration of exploration for us to know what separation is, how we are separated from our source, from the essence of love that creates us, that we call God, we call, you know, the creation creator and how we've been separated from that. But ultimately, we are journeying back to it as we dive into this journey and trust the journey of, you know, what it is to be a human and to feel it and to not evade it and run from it and say, I don't want the dark. I don't, I only want the light. It's like, no, both have to go together so that we can remember what it is that is oneness. Yeah, there's an excerpt from the Audible book, Desiderada, that you wrote, which is, in the flowing tides of galloping quest, we have set eyes on each other, then lost our sight over and over until we learned to forget the chase. So here we have this epic poem, as you said, of two lovers. Is there something personal for you in the download and what you put out? Because I know you're actually in a relationship with your beloved, Kaya. So how does that manifest, that whole inner search that you put out in your poem? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a very personal story. I mean, to me, that's my soul's story. I wrote it before I even really met Kaya in this lifetime, but I had known as a soul what it is to go through loss. And I really feel, I'm not to say like I've suffered more in this lifetime or that lifetime, but I just, I feel the suffering of loss very deeply. And I think it has to do with many lifetimes of having known loves and sort of expressions of our, you wanna say, of kingship, of success, of at the same time, hubris of pride and how the pride brings the fall. And I feel like I feel like I've been through the loss of Atlantis, for example. I know what it is to see civilizations wiped out. I know what it is to see like the greatest dreams of different life forms perish and wiped away. And so as a soul, I feel very much in pain by seeing the world as it is now, because I see so much of what we could be if we really trusted what we are.  What have you drawn today? Wow, that's so powerful. It's so beautiful.  They're so interested when you're a child. Then as life goes on, we lose the child and we become the adult and we become rigid. And it becomes, oh, that's an ideal. That can never happen. And all of a sudden we shut out all the dreams that we come into this world with, all the energy, that pure energy to say, wait a minute, why are we behaving backwards? Why are we treating each other like enemies? Why are we putting each other into slavery, putting ourselves into slavery and subjecting ourselves to servitude and to the feeling of squashing our own dreams? Why are we doing that to ourselves? Why are we killing the child inside of us? Because the child in us is what has the memory of what our soul has been through. We've seen it. And I think part of it is there's a trauma that we carry, which is, wow, we've seen worlds get destroyed.  We've seen the greatest love affairs. You can read about them in the histories. Anthony and Cleopatra, what happens? Well, they kill, he dies, she kills herself. I mean, that's kind of, Romeo and Juliet, it's like that's kind of how there's a certain bitterness that comes with being human.  So it's like, that's what we have to get back in touch with is, yes, we have done a lot of things through many lifetimes, we've hurt, we've tortured, we've conquered, we've committed atrocities, genocides, wars, but there's still life. And if we can just get back in touch with it, any moment it's right there, it's waiting for us, it's in the eyes of the child and it's in your heart right now. And if that's what this poem really is about, it's like connecting back to your heart and saying, wait a minute, there is a love that brings everything in this world into existence and it's in this universe into existence and if we can just connect to it and it's not just in your partnership. It's like, yes, you can bring it into your partnership but you can do it on your own too and just reconnect to it because we have that opportunity every moment to recreate this world. I gotta ask you as a man in a successful relationship, what is it that you do, especially as a man, what do you do in order to show up? Because as far as I'm concerned, at least my experience thus far, inherent in relationships, there's all the amazing good stuff but then there's the category that's more difficult. A lot of people say, oh, that's your core trigger wounds that you come up against and in every relationship, you're gonna bring that up in each other and it's of course what you do with it, you can walk away and do that over and over again and never maybe really find we love or you can say, I'm sticking with this, there's so much good here but how can we work through this? What kind of tools do you utilize, Sean, that help you transcend those things, that help you take a deep look, be responsible, whatever it is you do? It's work, I mean, I'm not gonna lie and say that a conscious communication is pristine because she brings her wounds and I think she talks about this in some of her work and the nature of the wounds of the feminine, right? The wounds that women carry in their DNA and their soul memory, even in their own lifetime of what they've seen, right? And you can speak of it where there's different wounds that even different ethnic groups bring but the female wound has been what? It's been basically living in what people call patriarchy. I think it's actually more rightly defined as a boy's rule. It's like the people that are ruling have never been, not men, these are not kings with Solomon, with wisdom and the grand ability to really hold the space for justice and for the female energy. It's like, these are not kings, these are boys that have been ruling our civilizations for at least thousands of years now.  And so I think the overall nature of our society is very much parasitic and it's been called patriarchy but it's just called what it is, it's parasitic society. And so either way, it's fed upon female energy, it's the based women, it's two women's objects and women also play into that problem just as much as much as you know, it's easy to say the men done it, women also treat each other in that way of jealousy and not holding space and love for each other or not being able to honor and even themselves, right? Because there's a woman, a feminine wound about how do I love myself, how do I treat myself in a way that is respectful of my boundaries but also exploratory and open, right? There's this fear, there's always this battle between we're going through it right now, between security and liberty, right? And we're sitting in our society, okay I wanna be secure, I wanna put my mask on, I'm gonna have gloves on, I'm gonna stay six feet away and not 12 feet away and not 20 feet away and it's like there's that issue within all beings which is more security and then there is the desire for freedom and to have that freedom. So that's the balance and then also working through the same thing obviously as far as where is our natural impulse to be free and to be the man and we by nature have been explorers, conquerors, we're the ones that set sail and disappear for months and it's like that's also in our DNA so there's a reason women have a certain fear, right? And at the same time there's a fear for men of saying well how do we stay in a relationship that feels safe and contained but at the same time has a fluidity and an openness to receive other people and to receive energy from others. So I think it's an ongoing, it's an ongoing dance, right? There's not to say like one way alone of answering how to hold space or to show up. I think that in my case I consider myself a very open person. For me it's like I believe in holding space and not judging as much as possible. Really like no matter what someone has done, if you can listen and hear it and understand it then you're doing the greatest service towards their evolution and towards their ultimate healing. If we can't understand each other, if we can't understand where we're coming from, you see? Then we go into ignorance and blindness which is simply to react and to reject or to judge or criticize, right? And so for me I think from my showing up it's one of my strengths. And to separate I have to say if you're gonna react, judge and criticize you're also gonna ultimately separate. Yes. Which is like one of the greatest core wounds to feel abandoned and alone. Unhurt, right, and then abandoned. That's exactly, I mean it's like we were talking about this recently. The abandonment wound which I think is essentially an aspect of being human, right? This sense of wow, I'm here and I don't really know what the heck I'm doing. Like where is God? Where are the angels? Where are the extraterrestrials? Where are all the beings that can guide me? And it's like you just gotta trust, you gotta learn to trust your intuition. You gotta go through this journey and it's okay because there's the control freak side that ultimately gets in the way. That becomes the dark side. The dark side wants to control everything and say don't go there, don't do that, don't do this, don't do that. That's gonna hurt you. And it's like it's your journey. It's each one of us learning and sometimes you gotta fall down. It's actually you can't learn to walk without falling down. You can't jump without falling down. It's part of the process. So the control side of things doesn't want to even explore. It doesn't even want to like try it because it's so scared of letting go and actually it's like our only freedom comes when we let go. That's when we can fly. Flying indeed. So we're gonna take a very quick pause here and we come back. I'll be speaking to Shawn Stone about some ETs, about some portals, about things maybe listeners don't know about. And first I wanna tell you about a dog anthology. At this time, I decided to produce something joyful with levity. So there's a dog anthology. It's seeking authors to write a chapter. It's called Dogs Are Paradise. You can sign up at debbd.net slash anthology. You can be a published author, not write an entire book. You can be an international bestselling author. It's guaranteed as part of the package. It's actually a huge package. Do you have a story to tell, a tale, a dog's tale? Because authors are signing up right now and you can too to write a chapter about a dog in this new compilation book. And when you come aboard, you'll be a published bestselling author in 2020. If it is time and you're interested, go register debbd.net slash anthology. It's spelled D-E-B-B-I-D.net slash anthology. And if you're tuning in after we started, I'm speaking with Sean Stone, his new Audible book, that's a Dorada by Ali, is available from Audible on Amazon. And Sean, okay, so many places to dive. So let's do the ET because you brought that up. And we did get a listener question for you. So I wanna go right there. Regarding ETs and ET technology, what if any ETs are you in contact with? And how are you in contact with them? Meaning, do you get visions through meditation? Is it telepathically? And if so, what kind of intel can you provide that is not readily available to the general public? What a great question. Yeah, yeah. I, that's difficult. Personally, I feel a connection to a lot of different star systems. There's, symbolically in my life, there's been a lot of Orion energy. But also Sirius, the, like more of the, some of the blue beings in the Sirius star system. The Lyrans have shown up, the, I mean, the Pleiadians certainly are there. I'm not gonna say that, but what do you mean by shown up? How did they show up? Well, I'll get there. The Arcturians are involved. What I'm trying to get at is, we're talking really more about interdimensional beings than something like a physical visitation, right? We're talking interdimensionally, that there are things that we can't, I mean, we simply cannot fathom. The human consciousness is not designed in the old modality at the two, two-stranded, double-stranded, double helix DNA modality, which was probably affected and tampered with by some level of the visitors. That version of humans was not designed to really see outside of the 3D realm, right? So many people misconstrued that level of consciousness to believe that was the end of consciousness. And so it's like telling me that you're basically a rat in a maze and you don't realize that the shadows that are being cast and the things that are affecting you beyond that maze, we would understand to be human, but at the level of the rat, they would never conceive what a human is. They would not be able to understand it. They would see maybe a finger here, they would feel something there touching them, they would see a shadow. They wouldn't understand how to conceive of what a human looks like, right? Same with an ant, an ant can't see a human. It's like their perception is not allowed to see the being that is us. So that's why, for example, cats and other things, we know they see into other frequencies of existence, other frequencies of movement and beyond what our instruments, that is the human instrument and then even instruments that we invented can only measure a certain spectrum. So when we talk about what is an ET, I mean, you can't, there may be people that have, I don't doubt that people can physically see an ET or have seen an ET, but for me, it resonates more with the idea of beings beyond the third dimension that are in touch with us and they affect us more at the level of channeling or they show up maybe in ayahuasca journeys. Certain people are more sensitive when they start to feel something working through them or speaking through them and they inquire where these beings came from. So the star systems that I mentioned, I have had resonance with between my intuition that of others, let's say, psychics that I have talked with over the years and there's a certain consistency of the star systems that come up. And in terms of my own intuition about my being, I feel that I am more of a hybrid of a multitude of star systems that ultimately it's as though the different star systems are effectively coming into more self understanding and actually more harmony with each other even through their progeny, which is us. You see, we are the children of different star systems for a reason. It's the same as like, for example, why different races, when they come together, it's like you start to mingle the DNA and the memory and the bloodlines of different races and it starts to create more harmonics actually between those races, right? It's very difficult to go to war with someone when you share the same children. So that's the way I see it as a galactic journey is that the human experience of separation coming from separation to more unification as a planet, as a one planet is actually also helping the overall cosmos come into greater concord. Interesting, okay. And so is there anything? Look, you're on, you do buzz saw on Gaia. I know you speak to some really fascinating people, some of whom have also been on this show and some of whom I have not had the honor to talk to yet, but I would love to know between the conversations you've had and the experiences and maybe even the psychics you've spoken to, what is prevalent that we may not be privy to? What's going on with these and with the external energy and us in our planet? I have no idea what the other psychics would say, what I'm picking up on and I think it's maybe, you know, again, where we are, the interesting thing about life, we can only see where we are. You see, what comes back to us in terms of our consciousness is that when we reach a certain place, we start to see the world from that perspective, right? So it becomes certain perspective that we have becomes more pronounced and gets reflected back to us. So what I'm seeing reflected back is an awareness of what's called the great awakening, right? There are those that are recognizing and they're starting to reach that frequency of great awakening. I don't necessarily know that all of humanity will reach that great awakening because there's billions of people here. Everyone has to choose their own path. There are those who will go with the New World Order plan. There may be a separation of Earths in a sense vibrationally or even just within our own planet. It's as though the reality of someone who's living in the Amazon right now is totally different than the reality of someone living in a city. We are at the point, what they call great awakening or as being, you know, hashtag great awakening is there's a reason that this theme is coming up. And those of us who are more sensitive to it have felt it in our bodies. We've felt the frequency shifting, right? There's a heavy difference. Even sleep being so interrupted. Oh, my goodness, so much of this question, right? And then throughout the whole night feeling these upgrade frequencies. Precisely. So for Kaya and I, we've certainly been feeling it for well over a year now and we've been put on a certain trajectory that is to say almost like digital nomads such to the place that when this pandemic occurred, we really weren't affected by it because we'd already shifted out of the modality of the city life and the grid and the system. So that's not to say that, you know, we're profits in any sense. It's just to say that we are in tune with, I believe with our Dharma. And the Dharma has to do with the beginning of what is called a new earth or really the ascension process. And the ascension process, it's real. It's happening. Humans are being challenged in ways that they think has to do with physical reality and viruses, but this is all symbolic. See the key to understanding life is at the symbolic level. That's what it's about. It's about the symbol and what does it mean to you? You know, what is the symbol of a virus? What is the symbol of a city? What is the symbol of power? I mean, all these things are symbolic. When they occur, for example, people talk about the Illuminati, that's the level of symbolism, right? So that's why Masons and other occult schools have always spoken through symbolism, use of certain codes, certain phrases, certain hand signals, certain images. It's the symbolic nature, but all of life is symbolic actually. It's all affecting us at the level of symbol. When we see something, it's a symbol to us because the way that I experience, for example, you know, I can give you anywhere, if I experience a pyramid, it'll be experienced by me in a different way than it'll be experienced by you. So at the symbolic level, we are beginning this ascension process in what is considered the global experience of pandemic, crisis, chaos, fear. That is to clean out your being, shake you up and essentially find out where do you fit into this new schematics? Are you someone that's going to basically kowtow to what the agenda of the overlords tells you? Will you become basically as subservient person within a new world order structure? Or are you someone that is going to actually go to the earth, connect to earth, especially in these time periods, connect to your soul, really feel into what's taking place at a much deeper level and start to really awaken because all the evidence is out now. You know, we talk about things, conspiracies. There's nowhere you can go at this point. You can go online and search and you wanna see UFOs, you'll see UFOs. You wanna learn about the conspiracies, it's there. Buzzsaw, we talked about all of this stuff. And if you can't accept that until the mainstream media tells you it's true, then your entire thinking is wrong because you shouldn't need the mainstream media to affirm something when you know the truth. I don't, you know what I'm saying? It's like, you don't need a dogma. You don't need a religion to tell you the truth. You don't need a politician to tell you the truth. You don't need someone on CNN to tell you the truth. The beauty of the ascension process is that we become the sovereigns, each one of us as humans. We become the sovereigns of our domain, of our being. We know we have the inner gnosis, the inner technology to know, to recognize and discern the truth, which is ultimately for our journey and not to say the truth for me is the truth for you. But I don't need someone to affirm it. I don't need someone to tell me this is the way to think. This is the way to behave. This is how to feel. That time period was the school of the Piscian age. Where do we enter in? We're entering the age of Aquarius. That's where you exit the school. You become the bearer of the water. You become the bearer of the information and the wisdom. Trust in you, that's the power.   I really felt the potency of that, having sovereignty over oneself, one's life, one's potency. Like that's really a beautiful notion out of this chaos and being shaken up and awoken up all at the same time about what's possible. So what are you doing every day to get through this? I know you've got your morning, wait, your meditation, meditation, your morning meditation, which is an awesome play on words. And I know I've seen pictures, we're friends on Instagram and Facebook, so I've seen your pictures out there in the clips and everything. So what are you doing on a daily basis? What are your rituals that are really keeping you awake and connected to more of the frequencies and downloads right now? Of course, of course. Again, I mentioned getting back to the earth. I think it's very important. As an earth thing? In a sense of just getting out of the cities. Kai and I have really been drawn to more Texas, to just the earth energy, to being away from the cities, to doing our practice. I mean, certainly she teaches breathwork, which is itself a very powerful tool to access the unconscious mind and to essentially bypass all the thoughts and the things that get in the way of our experience of life. But breathwork is important. I do my meditation, I think Qi Gong, I think Kudalini yoga, I think practices like this can be really important to move the energy. Certainly you want to stay in, you really want to be in touch with the body at this point because our body is, let's be honest, it's our vessel into this world, it's our instrument in this world. If we don't honor and protect and value this body, well, we have nothing, we'll be taken away. It'll fall, it doesn't matter if it falls to a corona or to a flu or to a cancer or you name it, there's a million things in this world that will kill you. So, it shouldn't be this, that's why I get so baffled by this nature of this pandemic because the whole point is, it's about our own immune system, it's our own bodies and it's not the virus that will kill you, it's toxicity that will kill you. We're living in atmospheres and environments that are toxic to the human body, whether it's the overall, the smog levels, the pollution in the water sources, the GMO's and the food. I mean, you can name a thousand different ways that we are toxicity leaching into our environment, into our bodies, right? And then, now they're magnifying it with this 5G rollout, which is to say to put cell towers, they're trying to put cell towers on almost every home. I mean, think about the insanity of that. When I was a kid in the 90s, it was basic knowledge. You didn't put a cell phone to your head and you didn't wanna live right next to a cell tower. And now they think that it's okay to put a cell tower on everyone's home because people just want faster internet. I'm sorry, at some point you have to say enough is enough with your lies.  The toxicity we've seen in our lifetime has grown and yet they call us conspiracy theorists for calling it out. So, the point is that if we don't recognize the toxicity is what kills, it's not viruses that kill. You have, I don't even know how many viruses in your body right now. I do too. That's part of life. Viruses also have helped us to make up our current DNA and our current DNA structure is filled with viruses and bacteria. That's fine. That's not what kills us. What kills us is the toxicity. And that's what we're not focused on because we have, again, we follow the mainstream media. We follow the reports of people that they call themselves the scientific establishment and they're no different than the priest class of old. The ones that told you this is how you have to live the life of your life.  It's like, no, where is the alternative media allowed? It's not allowed on YouTube and on Facebook. It's not allowed in the mainstream media. They don't give voice and platform to alternative points of view on these things. So, why can't we at least have the courage to listen and think for ourselves and to realize there's a reason that everyone in America is sick at some level. I mean, I could say everyone but let's be honest, look around. I mean, we know this. There's obesity issues. There's cancer issues. So much going on that we can say it just has to do with basic self-care principles that are lacking. So really isn't it a conspiracy to talk about what's causing that or is it not just common sense? Right, right, right. And at least to investigate and make sovereign decisions about. So how about free energy or zero point energy? And for people wondering about that zero point energy is the lowest possible energy that a quantum mechanical system can have. Do you know anything about free energy or have any new information on zero point energy? No, I mean, I'm not studied enough at this time to speak about zero points. Overall, I mentioned earlier about 5G and the rollout of these EMS systems and I just want to be clear. It's not that I'm opposed to the notion of wireless transmissions. I think what's missing is that A, the real debate and study of what are safe levels of transmissions of wireless really radiation, right? EMF radiation. But more importantly, there's a principle that I believe Tesla was getting into with his work and his studies well over a hundred years ago now. And it was the idea of tapping into natural earth energy. The idea that the earth, as we know, not only has a Schumann resonance but there's essentially energy within earth. There's energy within the human body is energy, right? We are coursing electric beings. The air around us is filled with energy. Tesla was trying to figure out how to transmit energy directly from the earth through the sky, right? Using natural means of conducting and distributing that energy. And I'm not saying if you whether or not you succeeded or not, I mean, I can't go there. But I'm saying that the idea of the philosophy is what interests me. Why is it that we don't want to challenge this rollout of EMF that really is gonna blanket the entire planet with a different frequency level that is can be argued as shown that can affect everything from the birds to the humans that it's in touch with, right? Our frequency is we are energetic beings. Rather than blanketing the whole planet with a new frequency, why can't we study more the idea of tapping into natural earth harmonics and natural earth frequencies for the powering of our technologies and for just for the evolution of technology in general which is one argument as to what the great pyramids were involved with in the first place was the idea that they may have been involved with transmitting energy to begin with. So to me, the overall shift in consciousness that has to come out of this ascension process is recognizing the human is not a 3D but as really a 5D and beyond being, fifth dimensional and beyond being that is to say energetic being that's interdimensional in our energy body but also in our thought processes we know we don't simply exist in three dimensional reality even our thoughts take us out of it. Our dreams certainly do. So if we can recognize more the fifth dimensional nature of the energy body that is the human being and how we are being affected all times by the energies around us can we become more intelligent in how we dispatch wireless energies and absorb the wireless energies that are being transmitted. Yeah, thank you for clarifying. I appreciate that. Excellent, yeah. And technology at its finest that's another way of altering DNA too. We're gonna take a very quick pause here. I'm a media visibility shaman. I help clients to express their unique roar and as a certified coach, I offer group and private sessions to help you write a page share in a book. I run a company that takes your book to a guaranteed international bestseller and also I teach you how to be interviewed on radio and podcast and get results and you can now join the visible visionaries.  How do you do it? Through media, it's so easy and beautiful and Ashawn was saying, why not have your own voice for media and teach what's really going on. So go to debbie-shinger.com slash visible visionaries that's D-E-B-B-I-D-A-C-H-I-N-G-E-R debbie-shinger.com slash visible visionaries. Welcome back, Dear to Dream, Debbie Daschinger. I'm interviewing Sean Stone. You can get his morning meditation at patreon.com slash Sean Stone. And Sean, let's see, I guess let me ask you with everything going on, this is Dear to Dream. What are you next Dear to Dream? What is your next dream for the future or the right after this that would be such a beautiful outcome for who we are and where we are and all the possibilities of what's happening? Absolutely, yes, yes, yes. No, the way that I would imagine the futures as we were moving through this ascension process or birthing a new earth, which is to say a new relationship to ourselves, to our planet, to each other, to our economy because how we relate to each other and how we transact with each other is our economy. I envision that we move away from the pyramidal structure of power, which is to say the even the issuing of money, currency from a central bank that issues it at interest. So essentially it's always, you're always in debt and forever in debt, actually in debt to that bank. I see it more that we are shifting into a transaction of energy between beings. And you can use the blockchain, for example, and that transparency as one means of helping to regulate it. It could be cryptocurrencies I could see involved in this whole thing to decentralize and re-regulate the overall nature of the transactions, but the overall idea is that instead of seeing currency as a fixed thing, a fixed thing that has to be issued, it actually as energy, because currency is what it's a current, it's energy. As energy, we always have more to offer each day. Every one of us has things to offer and it can be simple things, whether it's our consciousness, sharing consciousness becomes itself a modality of making money, whether it's sharing our consciousness as participants in platforms, even in terms of purchasing from a certain source. I say it like this, it's shifting away from the idea of I'm paying this corporate brand and I'm thankful to have its product as opposed to the idea of actually we're both thankful. The brand is thankful to have me as a client and have me as a consumer. And so there should be some more reciprocity shared between the brand and the consumer. And I think that translates then to all walks of life. So it's as though the overall nature of economy becomes valuing each human being that is your consumer, that is consuming your idea, your product, your food, whatever it may be. And at the same time, the consumer having, really appreciating what they're receiving so that we become more conscious as an economy and how we transact with each other, no longer listening to the mainstream narrative of follow this artist by that brand, shot from this major food chain. It's longer the centralization and consolidation of power that was the pyramid structure. It's more the harmonics of circles where everyone is in reciprocity with each other and doing reciprocity in the nature of your transaction so that there's much more respect and honor. So if we can, as light beings, just beings that are conscious, that are aware, that are looking for the, really the best interest of the planet of each other, come together and transact, we can shift, I believe, in creating our own economies that are perhaps outside of that so-called mainstream economy that really is promoting itself based on brainwashing through mask branding, playing commercials over and over again, putting themselves on billboards and whatnot, really to drive the money out of your hands, out of the hands of most people, into the hands of a few. And we're saying, no, it's not about the major conglomerate and monopoly anymore. It's really about the small and mid-sized businesses, all having a voice and all transacting amongst each other, not to have this mask, glamor, monopolies that was the dream of capitalism over the 20th century and ultimately led to a world where, as we know, the resources, the wealth is in the hands of what's called the 1%, and probably even fewer, if you really boil it down, it's the few thousand corporations that have so much power and influence in this planet. Now you and Kaya are doing breathwork workshops. You're working together at this time, is that right? And I know the name of that is Sacred Academy, or is it just her baby and you step in now and then? I'm just curious, if you can talk a little bit about breathwork, and what have you found there? So it's intentionally changing the breath, I've experienced it, and just share some, maybe what you've seen or what you've experienced that's been really altering. Yes, yes, so her academy is called Sacred Breath Academy. She founded it before I met her. I've done breathwork with her as far as she's, she has led groups and things like this and I've done breathwork, but I don't facilitate as a breathwork instructor, what I do with her, we do some workshops together, which is to say that we do offer people a sort of an opportunity to do both conscious and unconscious work. So the conscious work is to discuss during the workshop, to discuss things that people are going through at their soul level and their journey and bring up things like conscious communication techniques, various understandings basically of how we can become more integrated beings. I think that's really the thrust of what the workshop is and the second part of the workshops do entail a breathwork session that Kaia leads, but now her specialty is training actually, she trains teachers and other facilitators of breathwork and she teaches them all around the world, Bali, she does trainings and she's in North Carolina and California, so she's really more of a breathwork instructor and what does breathwork mean? Breathwork is really a modality that again, there are many different techniques because really you could argue that breathwork is involved with yoga, for example, it's involved with certain meditation techniques and mantras, her form of breathwork has more to do with going deep into the unconscious on these journeys to excavate maybe soul memories, wounds, traumas, also creative genius, I mean, she goes into a very deep hour long plus journey with her clients and so it's a very special experience and it's certainly one aspect of the workshops we offer together, but yeah, she has her own genius and her own brand and her own shamanic healing medicine to offer. You're so proud of her, it's really lovely to see. Yeah, well indeed, I mean, it's wonderful to see someone who was a young woman who was actualizing her gifts in a world I think that oftentimes, too often, many people, especially young women are falling into the traps of a corporate system that is really built on exploitation, let's be honest, especially of women in a way that's even, as we know, more gruesome.  Yeah, it's funny you say that. I've been pegged quite a few times on Instagram by several companies to become a brand ambassador and I'll always do the due diligence and the research and it's amazing the photos I see and the way people are dressed. And I mean, it's like this step over from porn, honestly. And I was more recently approached by a bathing suit company and I don't know. So I do my research because I wanna make sure I'm in a complete alignment and integrity. If I'm gonna represent, I need to really feel good about a product and what I'm putting out there. So that's just a really low level way of experience to what I know exactly.  What are some of the habits that you have that help those businesses succeed? Well, I think, first of all, I'm a Capricorn. Okay, that answers everything. The Capricorn mentality is that we are very, very driven. In fact, one of the things that I've been working on doing is relaxing and seeing success less, looking at success less from the old modality, the old paradigm, which was based simply on the concrete results and everything that we have to put into it to get to that concrete results and actually learning to really be in love with the process and learning to just enjoy the process. That's really what it boils down to. Everything is process in life. And the problem we have actually a lot of us as a planet in that old paradigm was the notion that people were successful when they made a lot of money or they earned their businesses quarterly reports were good.  There's always gonna be peaks and troughs and cycles, but that's really the way the nature works. Nature is meant to be cyclical. It's meant, you're meant to have seasons of growth and the sun shines and you bask in that sun and then the fall comes and you may be going more internal in the winter times and you learn the earth has to die.  You have to die internally till you're born again in spring. These are the kind of things that interest me more. It's the process of what it is to be human and to feel and to experience and explore rather than saying, well, you know, how successful was the business? I mean, there's a great quote from Steve Jobs at the end of his life. He talks about, yeah, for all the watches and the billions that I've made and all this. It's like, I can't treat any of that for more time with my family. And, you know, that's really what it is.  There.  They're sick with the desire for more, for acquisition, for proof of validation of what they are and they're not necessarily getting to really just live their life and explore their joy and their happiness. If we could, this is what the new paradigm of belief is about, the new earth's about letting go of the old expectation and aspiration that this will make you happy as opposed to saying, no, be happy in the process. And if you're happy in the process, that's what matters. And whatever that may be, it's why people are putting their jobs as CEOs. They're dropping out from that old structure. Again, parasitism, not patriarchy, but parasitism that was just, you know, about feeding the top and, you know, sacrificing yourself and suffering for the sake of the boss or the sake of the control apparatus that dictates a company policy. And people are saying, no, I'm done with that. I'm gonna go and travel the world, be a digital nomad, and just, you know, find my bliss. I mean, that's really what life's about, man. It's about being happy in the journey if you're fulfilled. And so for me, I've been fulfilled by my creative endeavors.  You know what, that's the joy. You know, if people can tap into it and enjoy it, then that makes me happy to share that with them. But I can't wait for a best seller to make me happy or the notion of that's what success is to make me happy. Yeah, that's truly being present. I love that. A metahuman with Deepak Chopra, what was the takeaway on the human experience for you after working on that project? That really blew my mind. I must say, I was, I told Kaya when I was making it, I said, I think I basically have left this old paradigm. That was very much for me a cracking of the old paradigm. That was like the end of it because there's a, the film itself really dives deep if people should watch it on YouTube. It's available metahuman, but it dives deep into this question of what the heck it means to be a human being? What am I? And the way Deepak poses it, it's just so beautiful.  You know, you're just a consciousness that perceives itself as this because we have an ego. So we say, you know, I am Sean and you are Debbie. But it's like, we're just a consciousness having this experience. And along the way, you know, we're creating labels and judgments and beliefs, but really none of it is true. None of it lasts. It's just the experience in consciousness. And it's like, it's very easy to say that, but the more you actually dive into that understanding, it really will destroy your old worldview. It really will undermine the old belief system and structures because people, let's be honest, we've built the old paradigm, that old system of the pyramid of power because people wanted to give themselves some concrete finitude towards their reality because otherwise it's like, wait, what happens then? I don't have a boss to report to anymore. Oh my God, I'm free. That's the most terrifying thing of all. I mean, this is the existentialists talk about. They're like, this is the burden of freedom. This is, what do I do? How do I decide? Make the choice for me. Come on, give me the options. Coke or Pepsi. Don't tell me I have a million choices.  That's what, that's the beautiful paradox about this whole thing. It's like, I tell people, I say a lot of times paradox is the only truth. If you don't understand paradox, you cannot see truth because it's yes, at one level, there's a slave system that operates financially and how we're controlled by these societies and economies but there's also the deeper rooted belief structure within humans that says, I wanna be a slave because I'm terrified of being free. Tell me what to do. And until we can excavate and really uproot that fear of the freedom and so we can really get into that. And I'm not saying that I'm fully there. I mean, it's like, it's very difficult to be an actualized, activated human being but once you're like on that path which is really the spiritual path just breaking down the ideologies and the structures that were holding us back and telling us how to do things.  You have to go to work and you have to pay this bill and it's tax day and all that nonsense. If you really get to the root of it, you realize it's all there because we're terrified of what's the opposite of it which is just infinite possibility. On that note, infinite possibility, Sean. Thank you so much for coming on the show again today. It's always a joy to talk to you. It's really, really interesting and I enjoyed this. Absolutely, thank you so much Debbie. Pleasure. And I end the show today with this quote from Hal Borland. Knowing trees, I understand the meaning of patience. Knowing grass, I can appreciate persistence. Subscribe to the Dare to Dream podcast to hear the weekly number one transformation conversation. I'm very excited. Upcoming is the amazing Dr. Sue Morter who is an amazing and brilliant transformational leader. This will be her third time on the show. That's a conversation you absolutely don't wanna miss. And if you're listening to the podcast, be sure to jump over to the YouTube channel youtube.com slash Debbie Daschinger where you can actually see me and the guest interacting. It's well worth it. Thank you for daring to dream. Thank you for being willing to create your dreams into your reality. And remember the secret of success is always having the courage to begin in the first place. If you're interested in a book and writing a chapter, go to debbyd.net slash anthology. And if you're interested in exploring being visible by being interviewed and writing a book, go to debbydashinger.com slash visible visionaries.


Yes, Charles is not there, so we'll answer his question later. Can I take it, please go ahead, do you have a question? I see your hand raised. A question. Yes, please. I find it very interesting with the appointment of the elders, deacons. We discuss a lot about spirituality, the moral uprightness. What about the issue of pre-numeration? How are they paid or criteria of use? So just how to pay them? Are they being paid or they are just volunteers? Because I know like a case of media details tell you a little bit. So maybe I never have had to see this volunteer. What about the others? Thank you. Thank you, Kennedy. So your question is, what about denominations? What about renumeration? How are they being paid? Are they drawing any stipend, you know? Okay. Are they on salary? Are they being paid? What? That's your question? What I'm asking is, why are they being paid? If they are being paid, what was the criteria of use to decide how much to pay somebody? They are just workers. Okay, okay, I understood. I don't know. Okay, and Kennedy, your question is specific to the early church? Exactly, yeah, the early church. Okay, yeah, thank you. Thanks for that question. Okay, so to answer Kennedy's question, I will share from what I know. I'm sure there must be a lot more information about this. But we don't see any specific payment as such being talked about in the Book of Acts. We see that believers were helping one another. The church was also helping the believers. So there must have been some system of providing for the needs of the leaders as well. Okay, so that is my assumption from the Book of Acts. As you study later on, there are references where we know that Paul was a tent maker. So he had his income by earning through a certain profession. You have people with Paul also. I think it's Akhla and Priscilla. They were also tent makers. So it's possible that the church was helping leaders through some financial aid. But at the same time, we know that there were some elders who had an income through their labor as well. Kennedy, yeah. So I think both ways, that's how they were supported. Thank you for that. No problem. There are so many examples. You have people like Lidia. She was a wealthy woman, I think in Philippi. And because she was wealthy, she was taking care of the church there. And she would have been able to support these kind of wealthy people in different places. Or those who are willing to give, they would have supported Paul's ministry, other people's ministry. And Paul writes about them, right? He talks about so many brothers and sisters, co-workers. So support would have come from different places in different ways for sure. And that's how the early church managed taking care of the elders. Yeah, very, very good question there, Kennedy. Thanks for that. Yes. So I don't know if Charles is back yet. But let me, oh yeah, Charles is here. So Charles, to answer your question, there was Judas and Silas who were also sent along with Paul and Barnabas to the church of Antioch. And I told you that this is an interesting church because we can do an entire study on this church. So there are so many unique features in this church. One unique feature being the emergence of team ministry. So the elders of Jerusalem would have sent these people like Paul, Barnabas, Judas, Silas very strategically. Now we know what kind of ministry Paul and Barnabas were engaged in. They were teachers and they were also apostles. I don't know too much about Judas but I know that Silas also had apostolic ministry. So depending on what grace each person carried and what the church needed, the elders would have made that connection. And that is the reason these people were selected to send to the church of Antioch. I hope that helps. Is that okay Charles? It's okay Partha. Thank you so much. Sure. Thank you. So let's continue. So we've seen till the appointment of elders so far. And elder comes from that we can relate to the word presbyter. That is an elder. We've seen that much. Now coming to a leadership team. We've seen the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15. Now let's see further. Now what are the other categories of leaders that emerge in the early church? In Acts 20 when Paul, you know, he appoints elders in the church of Ephesus. He makes a mention of a word. He says that the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. And what is, whenever leaders were appointed, they were appointed prayerfully. Whenever people were sent into a certain ministry, it was done very prayerfully by the early church. So he says that there are some people who are appointed as overseers to shepherd the church of God, which he purchased with his own blood. So he is talking about, primarily talking about spiritual ministry over the church. And he does not want to lead the church of Ephesus. You would also study that he had labored hard to teach the believers in the church of Ephesus. So he didn't want them to, you know, after he's gone, they lose their faith. Basically, as an apostle, he wanted to ensure continuity of the church, growth of the church, maturity of the church. So he realizes that God has, through the Holy Spirit, given certain leaders over churches. And when we appoint them, they can continue to shepherd the church. Shepherding is a term that is inclusive of teaching, nurturing, equipping, protecting, providing so many things. Just the way a shepherd takes care of his sheep. You know, sheep are generally known to be very dependent and very innocent who cannot take care of themselves. But a shepherd does that for them. So Paul knew that he must ensure there are such shepherds over the church who will provide oversight. So there is this new category overseers that you read about. And this term overseers, again in the Greek, if you look it up, it is from the word called episcopos. Episcopos is the word from which you get the term bishop. So far we have talked about deacons, presbyter or elder. And while there is ministry done by these two categories, more specifically when we talk about the bishop coming from the term episcopos, overseers, we are talking in terms of spiritual ministry. Primarily spiritual ministry overseeing the church in a spiritual manner. So these bishops are in other words, actually you could interchangeably use the term pastor for the term bishop because what does a bishop actually do as well as leaders like Paul, spiritual oversight over the congregation. So you see the emergence of a new category of leadership that is the bishops. And in the New Testament these bishops as Paul writes to Timothy for the selection of elders, deacons and obviously even the bishop has to have that same statistic. He says that they must be spiritually mature, they must be able to minister spiritually. What is minister spiritually meaning? Labour in the word, labour in the doctrine. And have spiritual oversight, protect the sheep, guard them from wrong teaching, continue to preserve them in the things of God. So spiritual maturity, again spiritual maturity has to do with the kind of character that we develop in our work with the Lord. So an overseer or a bishop must be spiritually mature. Or in other words you might want to say who can be an example to the people that he or she is leading. So that is spiritual maturity. So these are the requirements for a bishop or a pastor and you would notice that Paul tells Timothy to select even deacons, elders keeping this in mind that they must have spiritual maturity, they must be examples to the flock that they lead. So we have seen a new category now, a new category which is bishops that are being appointed over congregations. Now we will continue to look at how all these categories minister and all that and what are the other categories of leaders that will emerge. But now let's talk a little bit about team ministry. Now that we are noticing there are so many leaders in the church, the early church also believed in ministering together. So one really simple example is when you have Peter and John, in the book of Acts you have Peter and John, two of them they go to different places sharing the gospel, proclaiming, preaching the message of Christ and all that. So two of them go together and in the same way you find in various places there are teams, there are groups Paul and Barnabas, then you would see like Paul and he took with him Silas, he took with him Timothy. So there is group ministry happening. The church of Antioch is a very good example of group ministry because in that church you had Paul and Barnabas go and minister but there are other names also that we read about. We read about Simeon, we read about Lucius, Manayan who are also part of that church. And the beautiful thing is that each one of them was serving in a certain capacity. So you had teachers, you had prophetic teachers, you have bosses. So basically there's a group and a team ministry which is going on. And if you look at the background of all these leaders, the church of Antioch is a good example of a multicultural church. It's a good example of a church where people of various backgrounds are accommodated. Because Barnabas is from the, his background is he's from the Levitical, from the priesthood background. So you would think that wow, he seems to be a very highly placed, honored person in the community. But at the same time you would notice that there were others who were part of the team who were probably not as celebrated as Barnabas. And Paul is super educated in the team but you have different ones who were not necessarily that educated. But they're all working together. The backgrounds don't stop them from working together. It's more about the future of the church, it's more about the growth of the church, it's more about the grace which is given to each one of them. So team ministry, so the church of Antioch is a beautiful example of a leadership that has various people. And it's group ministry that is taking place. And even things like somebody is a teacher, an apostle, an activist comes in as well to minister for a while. So the five ministry offices also you would see that there is that cooperation among them. So there was team ministry taking place in the early churches. Now we have seen that there are groups emerging. Groups for the sake of ministry, for the sake of decision making, there are teams. Now as we keep progressing in the New Testament, we also observe the emergence of one key person for a local church. Now we mentor this person in whichever way we want. But for our understanding, we would just use like a senior leader or a senior pastor as that name to describe this one person. So classic example is that of the church of Ephesus. Paul is telling Timothy to appoint elders, to appoint bishop, to appoint leaders in the church. But who is the key leader of the church of Ephesus? It is Timothy. So Timothy is encouraged and he is held responsible for that local church. So in a way he is the senior pastor or he is the senior leader of that church. And today for us, it's easy to understand this structure of having a senior pastor for a given church. But it was already there in the New Testament. And another reference to this kind of leadership of one person overseeing a church and being responsible for the spiritual growth of the church is seen in the book of Revelation. In Revelation chapter 2 and verse 1, Jesus is addressing angels. He says to the angel at the church at Ephesus. Now that word angel, if you look up in Greek, it is angelos which means messenger. While interpreting it, we might think that maybe every local church has an angel, has a heavenly being that is supposed to take care of that church. But we know that is not consistent with other scriptures. So the only conclusion that we draw is the angel refers to a human leader or an overseer of that particular church. So in the book of Revelation, the address is to several such angels of several churches. And so we realize that it is the Lord Jesus who is holding one person or one leader as the holding them responsible for the life of that particular church. So we conclude that it is a senior pastor or a senior leader who is given that role. So this is also something that has already been there in the New Testament and we see a lot of that in our contemporary churches where you have one particular person who is leading. And further in our notes here, we have a section on the five ministers and team ministry and I have already shared a little bit about the church of Antioch there. And we see that all these functions are complementing, supporting, enriching the local church without competing with one another. So there is a lot of team ministry that took place when it was a blessing for the regions at that time. So at this point I think I will pause and come to our questions here. There is again a question from Charles. It says which political nation has this Antioch now? Where is this Antioch? In which country is it now? Now I think Antioch of once again Syria I think so. I think that would be the right person. Is it Turkey? Oh yeah, okay. Mangi has answered that question. Thank you Mangi. So yeah, so the Antioch which we are talking about is a Turkey right now. Yeah, alright. Any other questions so far before we go further? We'll have a lot of questions. Can I ask about the Presbyterian Church? Okay, yes Charles. Does the Presbyterian Church have a senior pastor? Can the Presbyterian Church have a senior pastor? Okay, see the very term Presbyterian Church tells us that they have a system of elders overseeing the church. Okay, so I don't know about the traditional Presbyterian Church if there is any rule or anything. But maybe somebody else can enlighten us if you know about the Presbyterian Church. But I know that it's a system of elders who oversee the church. Anyone more familiar with the Presbyterian Church? I have some idea. Yes, like you said, they have elders and the elders need not necessarily have done their BTH or anything as such. But just members who've been there from the start or have shown commitment and loyalty over a certain period of time. I think tenority. So based on tenority, they have elders nominated and then they're given areas. Basically, I think the common format is they have area elders. So each elder is given a certain area. So the elders responsibility to take care of the congregation in that area and also then have the church with different things. And I think the elders once a month, they meet together. They call it Kirk session or they call it some session that they meet together. They make important decisions. There's normally a church secretary and some other functions, but the elders collectively decide on the governance of the church. The pastors are there. So the pastors are not elders. The pastors are involved in the decision making process. They are considered at par or maybe even one step higher than the elders. But the pastors would need to have done the theological thing. So the pastors in Presbyterian churches need to have completed their theology and then they get to be pastors. A few things. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, Samuel. So yeah, Charles, I think that seems to be the stuff. Yeah, sorry about the sneezes and the sniffles and you know, so yeah. Also, in these churches, the elders are generally not chosen, but in few churches may be elected by the congregation. So they have election kind of system and a lot of political background where they, you know, they, they are chosen by elections, this kind of a system. And pastors are even transferred from like church to church. They may not be pastoring the church for a very long time, which is something that really concerns because for that reason, the pastoring is like being connected with the congregation in every area of life and helping them out. But just because they are being transferred, they don't connect the people to that extent. They understand the needs and so it's more like they head the church, they take the services, but then they get transferred probably to another city, another church according to their diocese or something, whatever they call. Yeah, thanks for sharing, you know, from your observation. So, yeah, in this manner, you know, the structure of like different structures exist for different churches. And it's a good thing that we discussed this now because we are moving into looking at the different forms of church structure anyway. And what I want to say is there is no perfect structure. Okay, the structure needs to emerge, be led by the Holy Spirit. That's what we have to keep in mind. Remember when Paul talked about overseers in Acts chapter 20, he said overseers, the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. So the method that we adopt, the structure that we adopt must be led by God and that is the key thing. Okay, it might look different for different churches. Now some churches may not want to have a formal level called elders. They might just have decrees and then there might be a senior pastor and a pastor will be. But that's fine, maybe that is what works for that church but they have been led by God to adopt that structure. So the important thing is to be led by the Holy Spirit and to go with the structure which you're sure God has given you and that it is something that is serving the people. So we will now talk about some of the existing structures. It is not to say that this is better than that. No, that's not at all the point that we want to make. In every given structure, we can see some good things but there can also be a downside to a particular structure. But we follow God as he leads to keep making things better to ensure that the church can grow because ultimately what is God's goal? We said that right when we talked about the church and the mission of the church. The mission of the church is to take the gospel out, to disciple the people and through the message of the church when the whole council of God's word is being preached what will happen to the people? In Ephesians 4.13, we see that till everyone reaches maturity. So spiritual maturity is the goal. So the structure must be such that people can grow into spiritual maturity. So having said this, let's look at some regular patterns that we see around us. One is the clerical system, which is adapted by churches like the Anglican Methodist, Baptist and so on. So here you have a very clear distinction between the clergy and the laity. Clergy are the people who are involved in the ministry. Laity are the ones who come on Sundays, they come for weekends, they come for private meetings and they are gone. They don't necessarily engage in any kind of spiritual ministry. But they usually support the clergy financially or in other ways to continue doing the work of the ministry. The clergy is usually under an hierarchy, there is a structure that is given to the clergy. And the way Ammi shared in some of these systems, you have the clergy being moved from church to church. And maybe the reason why they started this is due to the lack of leadership in certain regions. See it would help, right? Suppose I'm just giving you an example. If you take a remote village in Narnataka where there are no leaders, if we can send somebody from our team here to go minister there, it will be useful.  So maybe it began like that, but we do see the downside now. If people are transferred quickly, they are not even able to establish a relationship with the congregation. And even that can affect the congregation adversely. So that is a downside. And in this kind of a structure, we see a couple of levels also. Sometimes you have bishops within that same, you know, like the ablical structure, but you may also have beacons, you may also have, you know, leaders. They can be called with various terms like priest or something like that. But you do have levels of leadership as well after the clerical system. So that is a system that we observe. We have seen this particularly in the, you know, like the 1800s, 1900s, like it plays European churches, right? We've seen all that. And now even here in India, we have the same systems that exist. So it's more like a clerical system. There is an elder system, elder system which some churches adopt the structure. In this, the way Samuel pointed out, there is a group of elders. These elders are engaged in the decision making. They could be primarily taking care of the helps and administration, but some elders could be part of the spiritual ministry as well, right? Or in other words, you could have the bishops also who are a part of that elders team and they do the preaching, teaching, spiritual ministry to the church. And apparently this kind of a structure also has been, like the vegetarian structure has been useful in many places and it has helped the growth of local churches. And the challenging aspect of having an elder system could be the decision making process also. See, the good part is decision making because you are opening up more people, you know, prayer support more people, then hopefully you will make the right decision. But that same process can be delayed, right? Because they may not have a singular vision that can be slowness in taking a call on matters, right? You will have to wait or there are 10 elders that before we decide, oh, should we step out on missions to XYZ place? All the 10 elders have to say yes, okay? And that might end up taking time. So that unity, that single purpose vision, right? That can be challenging but if the elder system has fixed those loopholes and they know how to make quicker decisions and they have unity of purpose, it can be a boon. It can be very, very beneficial to work with that elder system, okay? So that's a little bit about the elder system. And I know of some contemporary churches, right? Some of my friends go to churches with the elder system and they have a founding pastor who has started the church. He provides leadership but he has kind of handed it over to elders and they have, you know, branch churches where they have teams of elders. They make all the decisions. They decide, you know, who's going to preach and all of those churches are actually doing very well. So the elder system can be a good system. There is unity, vision and a method for quick decision making. Okay, the next type of structure is the independent local churches. And I'm sure all of us are familiar with this because this is so common. So this is led by a pastor. He usually has a pastoral team under him. What is the benefit? The benefit is that, you know, it's independent, right? So you don't really need so many permissions to establish the vision. But if the independent church has a strong leader, he or she establishes the vision of the church. And that is helpful because when you have a single vision, it's easier to move forward. Okay, and hopefully the leadership is also creative enough to accommodate the changes, you know, that happen along the way to accommodate the growth of the church, right? So that way, this is also a beneficial system. Things can move in one direction. Things can move in a creative way. Things can move faster, okay, under an independent system. And hopefully, you know, the leadership team, the pastoral team is all in tune with that singular vision, right? And that causes the growth of the church. Then what can be some of the challenges in an independent kind of a local church? You know, because we are talking about one strong leader. If we are not careful, it's not even be if that leader personally also is not careful. You know, it could move into a little bit of a, you know, like gaining power, fame, kind of a dynamics. And if that leader is not careful, it could end up becoming a very like a totalitarian, authoritative, dictatorship kind of a setup, which is actually dangerous, okay? But if the leader is humble, if the leader is accountable, here, you know, we really believe in the kingdom mindset. Okay, the kingdom mindset. Having a kingdom mindset, even if there is a certain independent local church, if that pastor is well connected to other pastors in the city, and you know, the relationship is not just a working relationship, but you know, there are genuine friendships. People can hold that leader accountable for anything that he may have said wrong or done wrong, or the way he treats his family. It's a lot easier because when things seem to be going down, there is a mechanism that can help that leader if the leader is ready to respond well, and new things can come back on track. But if that doesn't exist, if that leader is all like, oh no, it's only my decision. I don't want to listen to anybody. I know what to do. God has called me my vision. You know, it can move into a dangerous, you know, dictatorship kind of a setup. So we don't want that. So that could be the downside of these independent churches. Another downside could be that, you know, usually people are very happy with the main leader. They have seen them lead for years, and they trust their leadership, and maybe the leader is very skillful also. Now, if the leader is not careful to have successors, okay, and successors who have, you know, he has helped those successors establish themselves while he is also in leadership. If he doesn't do that, what happens? Whenever he's finishing his term, there's just that emptiness. Okay, who is going to lead next? Who can lead like so and so?  Okay, so if there is nobody to lead, if someone touches on the scene and takes over pretty well, well and good. But if there is nobody, if nobody knows to lead from there, all the work which was done in the lifetime of that one single leader, you know, it cannot continue. Or sooner or later, it will crumble and fall. So these are the downsides of an independent kind of a structure. So there is the good and there's also the not so good aspects of it. Okay. Yeah, so I'll quickly touch on the questions here. We have 10 more minutes. In the early church, did the elders practice monastic kind of life in order to attain spiritual maturity? So Canada, if you don't see that by monastic, could you explain yourself? I think I know what it means but... This kind of life where they isolate themselves, they live on their own, they just come to serve their people. It's like they are super beings, you know. They don't want to get involved just the way you've been saying. They are friendly, they are accountable to the others. It's in the monastic kind of life you lead but you separate yourself, you detach yourself from the complication. Okay. Okay, thank you, Kennedy, for that. I don't think so. It's not a monastic life which they lead. Yes, they were conscious to keep themselves for the call of God. So you would see Paul writing many times like take heed to the ministry, be serious about your call, don't let go of it. So that aspect is there but not at the cost of completely disengaging yourself from society and your complication or like that. So monastic would be, you know, what monastic stands for. I think no, the early church did not practice that kind of leadership. I think the political system did. Okay, yeah, thank you. Kennedy, Sam, what are you saying? I was thinking maybe the critical system did. We see the early Catholic like St. Augustine and all of those. I think that time the monastic was probably where the Catholic and the nuns where they would have. So I think that period was where there was a lot of practice of monastic life, especially for bishop, deacons, nuns. Yes, yeah, thanks Sam. Some of the churches earlier they did practice the monastic kind of lifestyle. But if you take, like I know the Methodist pastors and all they do get married. They do have families. So I don't think in the clerical system every church follows that but some do. And there's a question by Charles about APC, you know, what kind of a church is APC? So Tarun has posted resources there. It's a non-denominational church come under that category. So you could look up details provided here from the website in the about us section statement of faith. And about us section APC today. And that would give you clarity on what kind of structure. APC follows. Okay, moving forward, network of churches. Network of churches. This is more like, you know, several churches with their own leaders, but they're all connected with a single vision. Many of you would be familiar with Assemblies of God. Okay, again, Assemblies of God is not necessarily a single vision. Every church has its own vision. But they have a, you know, they all face back to the work of the Holy Spirit that happened during the Azusa Street Revival in 1905. So that was the birth of the Assemblies of God. So people who believe in Holy Spirit baptism, the works of the Holy Spirit, they generally sign up with the Assemblies of God. So there's a network of churches. Okay, and it functions together. They have gatherings, keep themselves encouraged in God. So networks exist. Vineyard is another good example. New life churches here. I have heard of new frontier churches. So you would probably know of networks in your own country. Some churches do it this way. And it is again a very useful model because there's a lot of, hopefully there's a lot of accountability among the various leaders. However, again, if the network is led by one leader or a team of leaders who are not accountable to other leaders, then this too could fall in the danger of coming under a lot of control, right? Control, competition, abuse and things like that. So that can be the downside so we can watch out for it. But otherwise it's pretty useful. Again, similar to the networks of churches, there are apostolic networks. Apostolic networks usually have a strong apostle who is leading them. And they have a single vision and they quickly multiply over geographical regions. Okay, the good part is single vision, strong leadership, moving forward, expansion of the kingdom. The downside is similar to that of independent churches and the network of churches as well, where if the leadership is not careful, then it can move into more of an authoritarian system which is dangerous. And also there is one more challenge and this has happened. Some apostolic networks in the past, they usually use this term called covenant relationships. Covenant relationships are good but the abuse of that where if you are part of an apostolic network and there are sister churches and the people in that sister church, you know you form relationships with them as, okay, they are covenant brothers and sisters. They may not be like in a natural sense they are not our brothers and sisters but by covenant. Okay, and that comes in some kind of control and manipulation on the basis of that. Now that also is not good. It has happened in certain apostolic networks and that is something to watch out for. Okay, because that seems to have more of a cultic tendency. But if the downsides can be like, you know, if the leaders know how to work on the downsides and keep the church moving in a healthy way, apostolic networks are quite beneficial structure to follow. The next structure mentioned in our notes here is house churches, which I know a lot of you will be familiar with and house churches is becoming very popular nowadays and I mean I've heard of house churches even in a lot of developed countries. The good part about house churches is the kind of fellowship and you get to know people closely. You can grow well as more accountability, you know and also maybe saving money. You don't have to have the large gatherings regularly. Many networks what they do, they have house churches and they have one gathering once a month maybe where they all come together. Hundreds of people gather together like our usual church services and it's easier, right? Because you don't have to put in effort for that event every Sunday. So these are all the benefits of the house church. But what is the downside? You know, if there are multiple house churches, over side of the people can become challenging because the leadership may not receive moves effectively, efficiently, quickly enough unless they have a very good system and also doctrinally. Since you're handing over leadership and oversight to a lot of these, you know, overseers of the house churches now are they teaching in line with what the church believes? Sometimes it's hard to think unless it's being reported back to the leader. So accountability, right? Accountability and oversight can be a challenge in the house churches. So I think I won't rush. We could just stop here. Christopher is asking, I like to Pentecostal. So Christopher, is APC I like to Pentecostal? The question is do we believe in the outpouring of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit? The answer is yes. But we do call ourselves non-denominational because we don't really subscribe to a certain doctrine. We would like for us to believe in the whole Council of the Word of God. So we are non-denominational. Yes, we do believe in the work of the Holy Spirit. I hope that answers your question, Christopher. Great, yes. Okay, thank you. And Samuel has a comment here. He says about in relation to what we are learning. I think Charles was enquiring on the church structure. I think it's more aligned along the lines of independent local churches. Yeah, okay. Yes, Sam, you could say that it's independent. Yeah, but we do have a pastoral system. Okay, so there is an elders element over there as well. Yeah, and we do have deacons or we don't call them deacons. We have lots, you know, it's a very volunteer based church. Okay, so good. I think it's good. We're not thinking. So what I will do is I will wrap up this topic in the next session. So if you do have questions by then please come with that. We'll answer those questions. We will touch upon the remaining systems here and then move forward into the next subject. Okay, which is about the stages of church growth. And it's extremely interesting stages of church growth. And there is one amazing chapter on church growth principles. And that's my favorite. Okay, so I really hope we could touch on that the next week. So until then, you know, please keep your, keep really thinking and also asking your questions. Okay, so for now, we will wrap up. I would like to request somebody to pray please as we close off for today. Anybody? Okay, Samuel, would you like to close and pray please? Sure, sure. Heavenly Father, thank you for this beautiful time that you've given us. Thank you for this fellowship. Thank you for choosing us. Thank you for your calling to each one of us. We bless you. We praise you. We cannot live without giving you thanks. We are honored, blessed and happy to be in your presence to learn, to learn and grow, to realize your mission, your calling for each of us. Thank you, Lord. We bless each and everyone who has attended this class. We ask you to guide us. Holy Spirit, we ask you to enlighten us, fill us with your wisdom, with your understanding, with your peace. We bless Pastor Nancy for her calling for our mission. We ask you to guide your daughter and be with her, help her, equip her, help her grow in grace and stature. Let your divine favor be upon her so that she can guide us and many other batches in your way. We thank you for ABC Bible College and all the teams that are working behind making this success for your glory. We thank you for the lives of every participant. We commit our time and the rest of our days into your hands. This and everything else we ask in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you. Thank you, Sam. And yes, bye everyone. You have only seven minutes. So please feel free. You can log off. God bless you. See you again soon. Thank you, man. Thank you. Thank you, Pastor. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Dimesh. Yeah, thank you. Bye. Bye. God bless.