Hello everyone. This panel started because BDEL suggested that panels are awesome but I think we're going to rope them into yet another one before the end of the conference. It also started because I'm fairly new to open-source software and hardware. I'm very new to Debian, you won't believe it, and I'm really confused about how Debian and open-source and all of these things fit in. BDEL said he could give a talk but then I realized that people are new to Debian and open-source and from the discussions in the past days, even people who are long not new anymore still have very conflictive views and different angles and different entry points. So what I hope to achieve through this panel is a conversation between a lot of very interesting people but also a conversation from the audience whenever you don't understand something or you have a different opinion. So we can really cover the whole space as much as we can about what is Debian and how does it fit into the open-source movement. Before I ask the panelists to introduce themselves, how technical is this audience? How low should we start at? Are there anyone who's absolutely new to Debian and software other than me? Okay, excellent. Right, so often... I didn't lie at least. So can I start with Steve? Steve, can you introduce yourself? We work our way down BDEL, John, Neil and Allison. I'm just a newbie, I'm the gopher around here. And then we start with the most basic question. What is open-source? Steve McIntyre. Okay, sorry, whenever you don't have a mic, please run the mic. Hi, I'm Steve McIntyre. I got involved in Debian back when I was still an undergrad just under 20 years ago. I haven't quite worked out a way to escape yet. I have been DPL for a couple of years. As you'll hear, there's other similar experience around here. I've done all kinds of jobs in Debian. I still keep on finding new and interesting stuff to work on and new people to talk to. It's really good fun. And Steve, you're really involved in open hardware as well. That's like a plan to take, isn't it? I'm a little bit involved in open hardware. More case of Andy keeps on press ganging us to help make his project work. And again, that's really good fun. It's another thing to play with. Thanks. I'm BDL. I tell people I made my first personal contribution of source code to what we later started calling free software in about 1979. And I've been actively involved in one or more projects ever since. I started working for the old Hewlett Packard test and measurement in the summer of 1986. And despite a couple of years of being off on early retirement and a little waving to and fro as the company has split and recombined and all that sort of thing, leading me to briefly work for one of the spinoffs. I've been involved with the company now pretty much for all the time since 1986. I now sit as a fellow in Hewlett Packard Enterprises Office of the CTO where my principal responsibility is to articulate the company's open source strategy. Like Steve, I was once a DPL. Some of you may or may not have noticed that I was on the technical committee for a little while as well. I've been very involved in infrastructure things in Debian since the earliest days of my engagement. I have to admit that in recent times I've mostly been involved in helping other people figure out sort of what the point of Debian is in their context, why I think they ought to be using it instead of something else. I do still maintain or try to maintain or do a really bad job sometimes of maintaining a handful of fairly important packages. But other than that, I have no official roles anymore, which is kind of interesting and cool. I'm John Sullivan. I'm the executive director at the Free Software Foundation. I've been at the FSF since 2003, which is also the first time I use Debian. And I became a Debian developer in 2010, but became executive director at the FSF shortly after that, at which point just about all of my free time evaporated. So I have not gotten to do as much work in Debian as I hoped to, but I still do try to find ways to contribute, plan to take this week in particular as a chance to fix some of the long-standing problems in my packages in addition to connect to people and learn about all their interesting projects. Well, probably, I think it's fair to say I'm the least technically knowledgeable person on this panel. So what got me into free software had a lot more to do with the distaste for proprietary software being forced to upgrade over and over and having to buy new hardware in order to keep up with the latest operating system and also have a background in creative writing and was engaged in a lot of collaborative projects on that side of things, which is another point of interest for me and Debian is just that idea of, and free software in general is the idea of collaboration working with other people to produce something. Great. So there's space for us non-IT people in there as well. Yes, absolutely. Everything I learned about software I learned after starting as a Debian user and after starting at the FSF. Cool. Cool. My name's Neil McGovern. I've been involved with Debian since about 2000 or so, something like that in that various different roles from security team, press, lots of release management as well, so a number of the releases were kind of, I sort of helped along with those until fairly recently I was a Debian project leader. Fortunately I found some other poor person to take on that rather illustrious role. For those who are watching the recording or online, he sat in the audience, so it's his fault now. You just blame him for everything. You're very successful in steering the panel away from... Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So I didn't manage to, I think for the past seven or eight years, not maintain any packages in Debian at all, which means less work personally for me in case things go wrong. But yeah, I've also, I think along with Beedale, been involved with various other organizations around free software as well, so Software in the Public Interest which, similar to Conservancy, is a non-profit which helps support other projects. So it's been seen quite a bit of the good, the bad and the ugly of how free software communities and Debian has grown up over the years. So I was a free software developer in the 90s, and Debian was my first Linux distro also in the 90s. A few years later, a few folks came along with this name, open source, so when I use the word open source, I actually mean the same thing as free software, but I know that's not true of everyone. Just for me, they are synonyms. Let's see, I have never been DPL of Debian, but I have held DPL-like roles in a couple of other projects. So currently, I also work at Hewlett Packard. I manage a team that does all open source development. And I'm a president of the open source initiative as well as on the board of the OpenStack Foundation and the Pearl Foundation. I don't get to write a lot of code right now, but every chance I get, I do some weird little, I don't know, contribution statistics tracking per Python code just to keep myself from going entirely insane. But I think once I, you know, move on, you know, I always think eventually I'll be on the open source board for maybe three more years, and then I'll free up time. This is my last year organizing DebConf, so then I'll free up time and I'll get back to code. My name happens doesn't matter. We all think so. I just realized I was remiss. Everyone else is mentioned when they joined Debian. I joined Debian on the fall of 1994, actually, and before the first stable release, so it's been a while. Cool. I joined Debian last year. There you go. It's okay. Thank you very much. So now is your chance to be eternified in a quote. If you could write in a shortish quote, what is Debian and how does it fit into the free software movement? What would you say? You want that to be short. Twitter. Three characters. Maybe a little bit longer. Well, the clippy quote is life's too short for secret source software. I've used that one before. It's not new. So at some point, somebody wrote it up as Debian as an association of individuals who have made common cause to create a free operating system. And I actually still really like that. If you disassemble that and sort of look at what the pieces of it say and what it means that there's an awful lot captured in that relatively short assertion. An association of individuals. It's not a company. Even if many of us have the luxury of being employed full time by companies to do work that's part of or related to Debian, the reason we're here is largely not because of that employment. We've been able to figure out how to get paid to do what we love as opposed to doing something just because we're being paid to do it. And I wouldn't in that sense pretend to speak for everybody, but it's been my observation that in the main, that's true. And certainly of the folks who make the effort to come in some cases very far around the world to be at something like Debian for every year, no matter where it is. I think that's very true. Who've made common cause. We've also agreed to work together fairly early in the history of the project when the number of participants started to grow. We ran into this problem where the casual informal communications with each other wasn't sufficient to ensure that everybody had a common shared set of core values and sort of all agreed on what we were trying to do. That led us to draft this thing called the social contract, which at the time was kind of a new idea in the IT world. I mean, the notion that you had a project that explicitly made sort of a set of commitments to its users. It doesn't seem so strange now. Lots of other projects have done similar things, but at the time it was sort of novel. And in the process of that, we realized that we kept saying free and we had to define what that meant, which led to the creation of the Debian free software guidelines as almost an appendix to the social contract, a necessary thing to explain what we meant in our contract. And then, you know, later that was picked up and modified somewhat to become the basis of the open source definition, which OSI has ever since used as the litmus test for deciding what is and is not an open source license, which it means that Debian has had this sort of significant role in helping to define where some of the intellectual boundaries are that sort of constrain sort of where the edges of our community are to create a free operating system or free software. I don't remember exactly what the phrasing was, but again, the emphasis on free and the fact that it was, you know, more than one program. It's an aggregation of a lot of pieces to, you know, to create an operating system that a lot of folks could use. And then later, someone other than me asserted this notion of Debian, the universal operating system. I picked up on that big time when I was writing my platform for my second attempt, the one that was successful at becoming DPL. And I'm tickled that even today that is a meme that still shows up frequently in people's conversations about Debian. The notion that we can be and should be whatever we collectively are willing to work on together. And it doesn't matter whether that's a great operating system for really huge computing infrastructure, which is part of what my employer is interested in these days, or whether it's the cool new thing for something deeply embedded, which lots of us have had the opportunity to play with various devices over the years. It really can, you know, the fact that we've supported as many processor architectures and as many native languages and as many other things as we do makes us somewhat unique in the free software world. And all of those things together, in my mind, make this a really unique, really special, really important community. And the things that we decide, the decisions we make, the technical choices that we deliver in the software that we package up and make available, end up having really widespread implications and ramifications through all of the free software world. Great. Thanks. Can I get the rest of the panel opportunity to add to that? And then we can take a round of questions and comments. There's also quite a significant social aspect to Debian, which we've passed on to a lot of the rest of the free software open source world. We have been famous at various points for having flamers on our mailing lists and having really deep disagreements, but we've also kept many hundreds and now into thousands of contributors working together on the things that matter. We've helped with guidance for younger projects, for other projects as well over this time. We've demonstrated how you can actually focus on just producing a really good, cool system that we then, not only are we packaging up pieces upstream, we're developing our own technical solutions and then we're giving it away. We're more than happy for hundreds and hundreds of other groups to just take the pieces of Debian that they like, embellish with their own changes and pass on themselves. You know, we're not jealous of what we do, we absolutely, we're over the moon that we can share it and they can continue sharing. It's really, really awesome to just be part of such a big community. So, I think in addition to these elements of a community and an actual software project and kind of a set of really important documents, I think that Fermi and Debian is evidence that, I don't have a short 50-way to say this, but it's evidence that something that a lot of people say could never have been done, got done and can continue to be done. And this is something that really I connect with strongly, both from the FSF and being a contributor to Debian, is that we're pushing the envelope in technical terms and having the same operating system run on so many different platforms and to serve so many different purposes that it can be the same operating system that powers the server and has a really flashy, nice desktop for a computer user that's using their computer just to get other things done besides write code. And also the commitment to doing all of that with just free software. You know, how many manufacturers are telling us, well, you can never have a laptop that doesn't require some proprietary software. You can never do these things with all free software. You can certainly never do these things without paying people to do them. You'll never get just volunteers and people doing this out of the goodness of their own heart. But, you know, they seem to be wrong. And it's a mix of people who are being paid to do it and people who are doing it just out of love and fun. And I think that demonstrating that all of those things are possible and can be successful is an amazing thing about what Debian is. It's not mine, but I've heard the Debian project described as a bit like making sausages. They're very, very tasty, but you don't want to look too closely as to exactly how they're made. So, yeah, but part of it, spicy sausages, yes. And part of it is, I think we have to remember, it's the Debian not as a product, as a just generating the operating system. It is as a project itself. So it's not just being able to put together this free operating system. It is the way that you have thousands of people who work online and work distributed in a way that hasn't, well, certainly when it first started was a very rare thing and everyone being able to put together. And similarly as part of our social contract is that we do this all in the open. And we don't hide our problems. So if there's bugs, they're all open. Anyone can see them. Anyone can see where the issues are. And certainly the reputation of some of our mailing lists, like Debian Develop being a rather conflicted place at times, is simply an example of, I think you have in other organizations as well where there's arguments. It's just we don't hide them. We are open and we allow all our users and the community to see and then be able to also get involved in that process as well. So that's one of the key things behind the project itself for me. I agree with everything they said. My perspective is that for a long time I've ended up working in open source as ecosystem. So it's not just like one specific project. But Debian is fascinating because it is a specific project with a specific culture and community, but it's also in a sense all of free software and open source because it is an intersection of a massive amount of code from a massive amount of diverse cultures and coding styles and languages and projects. And it serves an important function of making sure that all of that works together. You know, like just having a language that's free software. Okay, that's fine, but it's just a language floating around by itself. Actually turning it into an integrated system is a massively complex problem. I think probably before Debian folks would have mostly said, oh, you would need a big company managing that. That's just not possible. And I think it serves as an important example of how to make software usable and I don't necessarily mean usable in the sense of pretty design. That is important too. We need more of that. But that sometimes usability is about the plumbing part and it's not the fun part, it's not the shiny features part, but it's about really getting the plumbing right and keeping on maintaining it. Yeah, I was going to say, I've also heard Debian described as an instance proof of the validity of the free software collaborative development engineering model. And it's kind of interesting, there are a couple of other things, not just sort of foundational documents, but a couple other interesting things that Debian chose early on because of the intellect or insights of some of the early key folks in the project that have been observed and in some cases copied by others. Our preference-based voting system, for example, oh, how I wish the United States presidential elections used a preference-based voting system. You know, there's a lot of things the rest of the world could learn, I think, from some of the things we've done, because while we have occasionally had serious knock-down drag-outs about technical or in some cases even cultural questions within the project, we have the structural mechanism to deal with them. We can have nasty discussions. We can disagree with each other strongly on technical and other matters and at the end of the day we can put forward a set of alternatives and vote on them and almost everybody goes, yeah, okay. It may not be what I really wanted, but we sure know what the consensus of the project is now. Let's just carry on. And that's something I think the world at large, you know, other projects have looked at and there's lots of things like that I think others could learn from. So the thing that I'm wondering slightly off the topic here maybe, and then you take a round of questions and then you pick that up. One of the things that really attracted me to Debian when I first got involved and it's only ever got stronger is the idea that because we have such a large group of people working together with some agreed constraints in our foundational documents and some of the designs of the system we have, we can between us make what's quite clearly the best operating system on the planet, the most flexible, the most powerful in almost every respect. Yeah, we can all contribute. If there are bits and pieces that don't work the way you'd like them, you can help, you can fix things if there are bugs. Equally, there are these several thousand other people who you may not have met yet, but you can trust them to basically do the right thing. They're your friends, they're people who want to work with you. So it just extends your capabilities that much further, just because we can all share in all of our effort. Great, thanks. Any questions? Regarding how white Debian is spread, how many of the panelists, partners, spouses, parents and grandparents are using Debian today? And about why not? So when my then-girlfriend Jo and I first got together, she had a Windows laptop. This is not uncommon. She was coming around regularly, and my housemate Simon and I, he's also a DD. We were both hacking away on our laptops and running things. After a few weeks of coming around and whatever, she complained, so why don't your computers crash? What's wrong? What am I doing? And then after a few more weeks and we explained, oh no, you might struggle with this, we'll happily show you. She was a little bit taken aback by this totally different way of doing things. And then eventually we got her a new laptop, we installed Debian on it. She's been using it ever since. Absolutely hates anything else. It just works. She's now going through the non-uploading Debian... She's going through the process right now to become a non-uploading DD. She is one of us. She just hasn't filled in all the paperwork yet. So my wife and kids are all Debian users. I'm on the far side of country for my parents and due to weird twists in earlier parts of my life, they're Mac users. And every time they have a problem, I just apologize as I have no idea how to help. I could spend all afternoon telling the funny stories of how my wife and each of my kids ended up running Debian each for different reasons and with different motivations. It's suffice to say they all came to it in relatively natural ways and I don't think it would occur to any of them not to want to run something else right now. My son's about to head off to university for a mechanical engineering program and he knows that he has to have his laptop set up to dual-boot windows because the university uses a lot of mechanical CAD stuff that's made available to the students for free while they're students and it all runs on Windows. He knew he had to do that so we've helped get the machine set up for that. He was not going to school without a Debian instance also available on the machine because he needed a real computer too. It seems like people close to me and my family seem to be beset by the kinds of problems that are plaguing us as a broader movement which is very specific requirements for proprietary software for school programs, professional and so that's one place where I draw inspiration to try to work on fixing those things but I try to do helpful things like run services for friends and family using Debian Main normally so that they can not rely on Google as much and still have some of the same features that they would get from doing that so I try to help fill in host websites for people help them set up their WordPress installs so those places where free software is way ahead and then just try to keep a list of all these challenges we have to tackle all the educational online school programs that are starting to require proprietary software or at the very least proprietary plugins and browsers in order to work and then both then PAPASF and as a Debian contributor try to help get those problems solved So my partner, she works for the same organization as me Collabra, we do free software consultancy so everyone at work uses Debian every day on their desktops like your first question on your first date No, I think your first one is here is your laptop, it is running Debian congratulations but I think the interesting one is certainly a bit broader which is exactly where Debian is because it's in a lot of places that people don't expect either things that eventually come back to Debian so in Debian or derivatives I was giving a talk at Linnertstag in Graz and the guy who was organizing it said let's go to his lab and he does genetic sequencing for diagnosis of cancers and various other things and the actual sequencing machines are all actually running Debian or if you got a flight here from Europe then it's highly likely you touched a air traffic control was running a Debian based system It was very interesting actually years ago I got invited to do a customer visit to a major airline in Europe and our field sales guys were curious as to why I had been invited because they said they basically don't do any Linux, we think they've got two red hat machines running Oracle or something but everything else is something else and I wrote, yeah, it was all Debian and they weren't bothering the sales guys about it because at that point in the history the company didn't officially support that as an operating system on the servers, we all know it worked and we sold a hell of a lot of hardware to a lot of people that were running it but I got invited, I spent a very pleasant day wandering around and learning all the crazy things that people were doing and we're just expecting it to work and it was fun writing the trip report up from that trip through a teenage rebellion phase where he has rejected the Linux he was raised on and now has Windows sometimes you just have to give them room to grow up and discover it for themselves no, I mean most of my close friends both technical or non-technical use Debian or a derivative of Debian my family, my siblings and my mother are very Mac-oriented I've introduced into things but my dad was very into Linux so I don't know it seems to vary, it's a mixed bag but I do have the experience of very very non-technical folks who are completely comfortable on Debian or other Linux distributions I am the other half and I'm not using Debian yet but I do have an Ubuntu partition and I was hoping to install Debian yesterday but I got distracted by like Augusta you could probably find somebody to help you sometimes this is my laptop it's finally got the Debian sticker on so it should get it, yeah there's also Windows partition on there my work works in Microsoft office and we spend about half the day every day waiting for documents to stop hanging never mind that I tell them about things like latex so I think it's just a exposure thing and I want to agree with Peter that there's the user face but there's also word of mouth and the more technical stuff and I think it's superficial to just focus on and I think, I guess it was Neil was saying it's sort of interesting that Debian shows up in places you don't expect and a lot of folks don't know about, I've talked about this in talks at other Debcons before but some funny little stats a few years ago actually when Martin Mikkel was DPL HP at that time came up with an interesting product called Debian GNU Linux with HP telco extensions and it was sold in a bundle with an itanium based server and there were two really interesting stats to me about that product, number one is the number of systems of that that we sold to the three customers who bought them who happened to be OEMs for all of the telcos in the world bought more itanium processors than the at that time estimate of the size of the itanium market so that one product sold more than most people thought that whole market size was and the second interesting stat is I was told by someone definitively in the middle of that era that one third of all mobile phone calls in the world every day touched one of those systems somewhere during the call process and the interesting thing is those are all running on private networks they're not on the internet or somehow externally visible and the kernels that were built for them and all you know were required to have lots of nines of uptime reliability because they didn't want to reboot those machines for 10 years and that's an interesting set of requirements it's the reason that when we were first doing itanium enablement in Debian I knew every time we uploaded a kernel package to Debian that it had actually survived all of our torture testing in the lab and it was probably the most robust kernel builds that existed within the distro you know that's an interesting little fact of history and I have no idea how many of those I mean it hasn't been 10 years yet actually a bunch of those systems are still running but I don't even want to think it but you know they're all at remote cell site so it's probably the thing keeping the electronics warm on the top of the mountain in the winter I used to use an titanium server to dry my hair in the morning in the basement for that another story I just have such a Marilyn Monroe image right now except that it's a server and your head so when we were first doing it Linux enablement on them they sent me one of the prototype servers and the baseboard management processor firmware was very naive it ran the fans full speed all the time have a day in mind? Thursday? not Thursday I didn't say she had to schedule it while she was here or delegate someone amongst the thing that Debian should be what Debian is not currently and should be where are we going to right so I've got a reproducible answer from Andy do we have anyone backing that up I give one mildly controversial answer I guess official Debian Debian main is 100% free software Debian as a project still supports non free software as required for its users so I think when we think about what Debian could be it could be in the long term a way to make non free non issue that's one thing that'd be cool a question over here languishing on the dark mess over there I said it's dark over there nobody could see your hand thank you for being part of the panel I just had two quick questions the first is really what kind of phone do each of you run or use and leading up to the question of how can we get Debian into the sort of mobile space that we see so many devices on I mean that's the piece of free software that I don't have in my life is a great free software maybe you could combine some vision of how to actually get there if it's even at all so I'll answer the first one of those because that's quite easy I still have an Nokia and 900 running MIMO a Debian derivative it's the best phone I've ever had because it happens to be a little on based Debian computer that happens to know how to talk GSM and stuff I'll let somebody else answer the harder question well the easy question I'm carrying a company provided HTC One M8 that's running a build that I did myself of an older cyanogen mod with a number of interesting tweaks to change some of the security profile I was going to answer a red phone but okay I've got an Nokia X I think where's Graham or someone who's seen my phone before that's apparently a good phone for Debian it works I'm using a Samsung Galaxy Note 2 which runs Replicant which is the flavor of Android sponsored by the FSF which removes all the proprietary bits which means it's lacking some features like Wi-Fi and GPS and Bluetooth and it's 3D graphics acceleration but I can tell you it makes phone calls sends received text messages and fulfills my need as a phone every day just fine so we're of course trying to fix those remaining obstacles and get the missing features implemented but in the meantime I encourage people to give it a try the project is sponsored really is developed primarily just by two main people and he's got the system working on several phones so imagine if two more people join him and did the necessary kernel work on those phones that we might actually have more features and more supported devices besides helping that project I think another good way forward because I also miss the M900 so in the days when I was able to run a new Linux system on my phone is I think we need to think about portable devices that are approximately phone size but just have working Wi-Fi with free software and then promoting open Wi-Fi networks and mesh networking because no matter how free we get the user space on any mobile phone the proprietary GSM firmware is going to be an obstacle and attempts to replace it are going to run into big time patent trouble I think we need to push on all fronts we should make them cause the patent trouble we should also work on communications work arounds using what we have at our disposal yeah even without the patent issues the problem we have there is that the hardware manufacturers can produce new devices faster than we can keep up with them and so to be able to actually go buy a contemporary device you either have to just decide you're going to live without a bunch of functionality or you have to decide that it's okay to run software stack on it we obviously are all sort of picking different places on that continuum so I have a variety of devices again everywhere from the N900 to the N9 also have an iPhone interestingly we've been doing things like porting G-streamer to it so actually some of the stuff we do is replacing bits which are proprietary with free software and then the aim is to try and eventually lead towards the place that we will eventually as as John and I'm sure most people around this room is we will live in a world where there is all entirely free software and we won't have to rely on anything like that are we there yet? nowhere near if you speak to any of the open hardware guys Andy or BTO in particular the level you get it's not very far before you reach something proprietary in hardware so it's somewhere that I think we would all like eventually to get to, will we get there soon? who knows I'm rubbish at predicting the future in technology so embarrassing I have a Moto X with stock Android on it and I've drawn my pragmatic lines with the phone should work but I will put in a plug for where I volunteer at the Free Software Foundation is in the Respects Your Freedom program so what hardware we use every day does matter but advocacy can make a much bigger difference in what hardware is like in the future and really taking the steps to go and talk to Intel about how AMT is blocking having fully free laptops you can make a big difference over time I'll also say having worked on Ubuntu the first Ubuntu mobile and the beginnings of the Ubuntu phone it is not trivial to create interfaces that work well in mobile but it's entirely possible and I think Debian could attract a community of people who have the design skills and the technical expertise to do it we don't really have it right now but I think we could that's a great closing point does anyone want to add another closing statement before we end in a minute I'll just reiterate what I said yesterday the benefit of those who aren't in the room for the new people session please if you have other questions particularly if you're new to the community or your student or whatever don't be at all afraid to come and poke any of us anytime you see us during the week and ask a question or see if we're available to have a conversation because a large part of the reason many of us come here is precisely that to have the opportunity to meet new people talk to new folks about what we've been excited about for so long and help ensure that this community grows and flourishes in the future yes exactly I learned so much at DebCon it's awesome well thank you very much for being on this panel and personally as a newbie thank you very much for all the support and advice it's amazing thanks for helping us be here


I'm Kim Watson, a member of the Science Advisory Board for the state, and... Karen Jugeer, Hermione Agency of Agriculture. Kim and I are going to try and flesh out what standards and testing procedures should be in place for a regulated cannabis market with your help. You can see a lot of familiar faces in the room while we're still going to send around an attendance sheet, just because there is no protocol for subcommittee meetings yet. We don't want to be remiss if that becomes a standard. And I think we'll go around the room real quick and just do introductions. If that helps, I'll start with you, Scott. I think they'd be attending the sheet. Well, let's start with you. I'll finish with me, just so you guys know a little bit more about me. Yeah. I'm a retired worker from the Stone and Gourmetals, which was in multiple areas. And I have been working with the state of Oregon in their protocols for sampling and making sure that we get representative samples for cannabis, product, flour, and any kind of oils and things like that. So that's all I got asked by Julie Moore, who we used to also work as Stone Environmental to be a member of the Science Advisory Board. My name is Scott Waring. I have an involvement of New Baldwin Association. I've been working out for, I'm working now, working for the group to purchase a piece of processing and working on building, or bringing that into the whole back to life. Hi, my name is Keith Griswold. I was, I currently run a consulting company called True Measures, but I was formerly of the original Northeast Process, a little bit testing. So I'm currently working with Scott to get the Northeast Processing Lab for cannabis off the ground again, in addition to a couple of other small processors located throughout the state. Jeff Mapp, everybody? My name is John Burgadia. I work for a small company. We were doing some kind of planning or interested in getting into following the cannabis. How's that? It's Lee Gleister. I'm Kim Kaufman. I'm brought together some small hemp farmers in Worcester. They're very interested in moving into cannabis. Jimmy Goldsmith. It's the same thing. Go ahead, Steph. Stephanie Smith of the Agency of Agriculture, I currently manage to have programs for the state of the month. Chuck Starleau, I'm a public affairs, I think. Mr. Waring, you're our client. Could be. I'm pinch-hitting for somebody else in the tournament. Yeah. Was they able to spread them? Yes, me too. I'm Virginia Bradford, and I'm here today representing the Mott Campus Trade Association, which consists of the existing and medical responses. Good morning, everybody. My name is Jeffrey Pistola. I'm here from the Vermont Grurbs Association, and I'm representing the, not just the illicit, but also one of the people who serves in small doses. All coordinated to work, and not just for instance. Great to have you here. I'm Julie Goldsmith. I'm a member of the Cannabis Control Board, which I feel like a program already all year long. Thanks. Thank you. Yep. And I'm Bryn Carr, the executive director. All right. Thanks.  I'm the director of the Public Health and Resource Management Division here at the agency. It houses the HEM program, and it has a lot of consumer protection and quality control program. It has a pesticide program, DT Infernalizer program, and when asked by the then Governor Peter Shumlin what consumer protection and quality control program would look like for cannabis, we used a lot of the material that was out there, was in touch with other states that regulate cannabis, and it came up with a protocol that you see in the HEM rules, but I'm hoping that Tim's experience in Oregon helps us improve those, as well as input from everybody here. And with that, let's begin. Where do you want to go? So, I noticed that you have a lot of tests that you're requiring on the HEM, which would be similar to what you'd want to require for medicinal and recreational. And I think they're both being included once it's all on the board. Yeah, they're going to make just one universal for both and recreational standards. So, go list. Is it enough? Do you think it's enough for public health? So, what we did in the HEM program, Steph, always feel free to chime in as well, and it's up there on the screen while we're talking about for people who are interested. We want to make it not overly burdensome for the producer, but still protective of public health. I think we've done that, but extra eyes would be extremely helpful. And I wanted Stephanie with the Agency of Ag. The other thing I wanted to point out is with HEM, specifically nationally and in the state of Vermont, we're required to test harvest slots for potency, specifically to meet the definition of HEM. And so, that's potentially a little different, but not entirely different because I understand that there is currently a limitation of 30% THC on cannabis to be grown. But that still probably is at the product level, and not at the harvest level, even though they might be the same. But anyway, so, but if you triple the flower or not, I mean, that's potentially the concentration is greater than what you would collect in the field. So, that is a little, maybe a little different. So, I just want to highlight that. Which everyone in terms of color, you know.  And it depends, yeah, yeah, what it's going to be used for. For recreation, because it goes right, the flower goes right to the dispensary, and other flower may go right to processors or producers. I think the point, Stephanie, was trying to make it correctly for our own stuff, but in the hemp market we're testing potency for compliance and a regulated market is for marketing, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's possible that the flower would, at the grower level, it is possible that the grower not test at a harvest stage because that flower would be trimmed up and it's when it's sold that you would want to know what the potency is at that point and not necessarily out of the field where there might be leaves and other additional substances that might otherwise pollute what might get sold in a container at the dispensary and or retail level. So, is it, and this is an open question because I, again, I work in the hemp world. One of the interesting comments is whether or not it really is the product that we're testing and would the grower need to take a harvest sample, would it be incumbent upon them to do it and pay for that service at that point in the process? Am I making sense? I don't know. I feel like they may be able to certify it better. What's the timeframe on the testing? Are you testing pre-harvest? Are you testing... So, for hemp it's pre-harvest, but I think in a regulated market it's the final product that would need to be tested, you know, depending on your math. Like, we're trying to, I believe I would like to see applied a level of sort of sanity, like if it is going for extraction, depending on the type of extraction it's going for, you might not see some of the micro-topping, toxin testing, but if it is smokeable flower, then microbial contamination on the flower is important. But this is all stuff that needs to be talked about and fleshed out. I don't want to be the be-all and end-all. Like, I'm willing to be educated here. Well, that's what we try to do for that hemp, folks, just so they weren't having to do a battery test that weren't necessarily going to be protected by public health. So, basically we have potency, pesticides, residual solids, and microbial contamination. And the moisture up there is also important, but less so in a regulated market, because if your moisture is too high, it's going to take care of itself. We need to do that because in the hemp rule we said, that needs to be tested on a dry weight basis, and we said 13% is dry. If, unless, yeah. But other than that, any thoughts? What did you see in your order? Well, we really, I mean, we really would focus for recreational on the trim flower and the concentrates, depending on the products and infused products. And the real key was that the laboratories were required to go to the producers with a trained sampler who would sample the flower from these lots. And they could be 10 buckets of flower, could be one bucket of flower. It could all depend upon what the producer is producing. It really depends on what you're bringing to the recreational market. And most of them had their own recreational facilities as well, where you would purchase what they were selling. And it was all about the laboratories who were required to go. The producers could not send their own lots and the increments of what you were preparing into the laboratory. The laboratory would send out a sampler who was trained in representative sampling who would determine how many increments to produce and bring back to the laboratory. And they were required to be trained on an eight-hour training day on how to collect the flower, the concentrates, or the products.  But the most important part for that was their pesticides. Because, you know, we know in the markets today and in the facilities today, they're starting to use pesticides. I mean, when they were growing in the 70s, nobody had to use pesticides or had as much as they are today, especially in greenhouses and things like that. I've always felt like the pesticide misuse was, by far, the most important part of the ceremony. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, heavy metals, that's, I'm not really sure. I've never seen a lot of heavy metals. That was important for them. Yeah. Because it remediates the soil and we're planting in unknown. The indoor grows. You can control the media a lot more and help us growing in the fields and some of those samples we're seeing highlight. Yeah. And probably our snip just because it's natural. Soil's in Vermont? Mostly lead. Mostly lead. I don't know why. Northeast processing folks, is that a bigger experience as well? Lead and then cadmium, actually. Lead and cadmium. Some of the soils. And this is just here saying that apple orchards tend to have that issue. We do know that. Yes. But that certainly makes sense. I mean, in the context of cannabis testing, where sampling, obviously results could be skewed based on the sampling method. I'm just curious though, so the trained samplers for the employees of the laboratories at Howard's, they actually hired by the laboratories. So is that built into like a sampling, and I don't want to digress here, but a sampling, is that built into the cost of the testing or how is that after costs? I'm not sure if the producers would have to help pay for the samplers to come out. We didn't really get into the cost. I got into more of the certifications of the laboratory in accordance to the Department of Health. They control standards or their certifications for their cannabis laboratories. And a lot of the ISO 17025 labs also employed the samplers. There were some independent samplers, but most of them worked for the lab. Just thinking about it from the research perspective, just the little red labs. Yeah, and the dispensaries also may have, you know, had connections with the labs and the samplers, but the dispensaries typically had one lab that they used all the time. Right. I mean, there's a lot of labs. There were 75 people that showed up on the training facility. The one day just because they had, you know, had to do it. Does anybody in the room feel like we're missing anything? One thing to keep in mind that we currently see in the illicit market at an increasing rate and also emerging in adult use marketplaces, and that is the notion of basically rehabilitating, right, a product in the process of making it a concentrate. It's often part of mediation. And it is often an opportunity, this is why I bring it up, for otherwise a product that tells it has to then find a pathway to market elsewhere. I don't know exactly what the solution is. I do know that others are thinking about this. So something to keep in mind, so in an act it would be, I've got a field of raw flour. It fails, say, microbial heavy metal steps. Can I then shop around to a lab to get that turned into a concentrate that may or may not theoretically, you know, deal with that issue? So like making a distiller out of a failed material? There's a manifest on most flour and products, you know, that is tracking. It's lot number and it's use. So I don't know what the hemp market has done in terms of a manifest to keep track of your harvest lot. Yeah, in the hemp program we do require that it should be maintained of flour or concentrate moving and where it goes and ends up. So even if I have a product on the shelf that I've made, if it comes from a concentrate, I have to be able to, there's trace back and trace forward. Through records. Now we don't maintain those records here at the agency. The individuals require to maintain those records and they have to be available for inspection when we ask for it. Our rules have been in place since May of 2020 so we're just a little over a year into it and we do fair amount of compliance assistance with everyone. But let me make them aware of these requirements. So yes, we do have that in the hemp program but to some extent my understanding is that some of the organic issues can be resolved through a solvent extraction process. I could be wrong. But even if you did do that you would still have to have a clean record for the concentrate that you make. So if the flower is cleaned then you make a concentrate. Potentially that record follows that concentrate but we need to have a system or there has to be records that are maintained that show that the concentrate is linked to a clean crop in the beginning and if it's not then you could potentially remediate. You could take that time and spend that money and have that test run again and that's fine too if it is a fair remediation step. I don't know with certain concentrations and exposure limits in the pesticides there's no... Oh no, I was thinking microtoxins. I wasn't thinking heavy metals. I think heavy metals are probably concentrate as well. But like, yeah. So if we didn't find any of the traditional chemistries as far as pesticides go it would be a misuse and the sort of list that we have for hemp really relies on organic products or mineral risk products. So all of those active ingredients up there. How many others? Oh, that's what we would want to test for. That's what we test for. Yes, that's what we test for. You only test for 15. Do you require any of the producers to document their use of pesticides? Sort of the folks who have gone down the path of certifying organic have to document what they're used and that's a pretty good percentage of hemp growth right now. If they are a private applicator they do have to sort of record their use. And are they certified through VOF? Organic? Farmers? A certain number aren't but the licensed applicators are certified through the agency of that. So you have auditors like the law? Yeah, field of agents, yes. And our habits inspector look at their pesticide storage generally visits a farm as well? As does fire safety. As does fire safety. Carried the hemp pesticides approved by EPA for use on hemp. Are you watered? I don't think we would add those to the list. No, not to this list but just generally available for use. Yeah, so what do you think? On recreational camps inside of anything. Yeah, no I wouldn't. Primarily some of the minimum risk stuff, yes, but the pesticides that EPA is allowing on hemp are all for seed and grain and they do a dietary risk assessment but not an inhalation. That study's called something. Did you ever do that study? The inhalation studies? No. I don't even know the list of EPA pesticides or food to go on hemp. I didn't think they were any. They're all. Are they biopesticides? No. Because like I said they've been evaluated for grain and fiber crop. So you can eat them but they're not considering a smokable flower market. So the list of 25 bees? It's okay. The 25 bees are the minimum risk. I know there's 15 unit organ loss for 25. Yeah, no I've seen the organ and a lot of those you can't get anymore. So it took off the ones that haven't been for sale for a little while. You think you can't get them? No, we're pretty sure. We've been running a disposal program in the state and it's been pretty significant. And a lot of those products are around. Yeah. If it hasn't been registered for sale or use for the last 15 or 20 years we didn't add it to the list. So where, what labs are they, the state using right now? So for pesticides currently our labs are in the Round Robin stuff. We have eight. Eight? Yeah. But we have two, we're certifying labs as well in the state of Vermont. And we currently have two. And then we have Vale, so the state lab. And then we have a bunch of other labs that are interested in those who last at the dispensaries that are currently operating. So the Department of Ag is certifying that it's not the Department of Ag. Correct. And that, and the accreditation bodies that are doing it, are they certified by particular accreditation programs? So we require the certified labs to be ISO 1725 compliant. And then we don't necessarily require a specific cannabis accreditation. Just that they're following 1725 with respect to some standard that they have at the lab, or some analyzer. And we actually don't require it. We require that someone either have it or be working towards it. Because we wanted to give a leg up to folks that are entering the system but haven't quite met that far as of yet. So they have to be working towards it. And we limit those that are working towards 1725 accreditation to only testing potency, moisture, and one more, but I can't remember. I think it's pesticide, actually. I think it's worth sharing the certification document with Kim. Yes. This is what we're looking at right now. I can share that. I will send that to you. So just out of curiosity, what certification does the, the, what is it? State lab. State lab. I think what is the AAL? Is it fail, Vermont? Environmental lab. Okay. Oh, the AAL. Okay. And what, what accreditation do they require for them right now? So that we're, we're designing what requirements that the lab will hold, but the lab does environmental work. They have the National Environment, a lot of accreditation. Yes. They're moving, moving toward the 1725. They're looking for DEA certification in Israel. And we have other certifications for FDA. And What is DEA? So that's Drug Enforcement. DEA. Drug Enforcement. Yeah. Well, that's what I thought it was, but just in case. Yeah. Wanted to get all of something else. And we're accredited through FDA as well for our dairy lab, for the Central Dairy Testing Lab in EPA. So they really grown there. We've always had, our lab started off as a dairy lab. Okay. Yeah, no, I know. Yeah. But the one that was here, but they really, is it all in Randolph now? It is, yeah. So the lab was in this building for many years. Yeah. And then we moved to the lab in Water Barrier, which was destroyed during our reading. We squatted at UVM for eight years and built a new facility in Randolph. And that's where we are now. Yeah. The QA manager used to work at Stanford. Who was that? Dave Crosby. Dave Crosby. Perfect. All right. Totem, everything he knows. Dave's great. Even I noticed he has a really nice quality management point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have a question just about, so have you given any thought as you move through this to what size you're going to allow, how much are you going to allow a grower or a dispensary to grow in terms of capacity? Because how will affect your testing automatically if you're going to have very small grows? Mm-hmm. It's very easy and probably a test. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's not our charge. No. Specifically that Julie and Kyle and James, they'll be having those conversations. But I was kind of what's sort of in this conversation what's sort of sticking in my head is a sampling and a sampling protocol will become important. Our list isn't too far off. And pesticides are the primary focus for consumer protection. It's sort of what's, what I would have for bullets. This is as well. Probably the residual solvents as well. And residual solvents from extracts. So for concentrates. Now what we want to test, again, I think we almost need a HACCP plan for facilities. That's sort of the critical control point. Because if you're extracting to make edibles right into butter and not concentrating first, maybe we're not looking for residual solvents. But if you're starting from a crude oil or distillate, or then we should be looking. And I'd like to sort of build on that flexibility, but I don't exactly know how about being right up in everybody's business. Right. What's the process of doing what is the producer doing everything? Or if they did residual solvents on anything that got concentrated into a liquid or a oil or a... I think that, so your smokable concentrates I think would all need to be tested for residual solvents. So one of the things that we did for most of the producers and the processors was we created standard operating procedures for the samplers. So the state of Oregon has a free standard operating procedures for the samplers. I don't know if you've seen them. Yeah. I don't have copies, but I have one. Yeah. So we helped write those. And basically it allows you to know how the samplers can collect first lower and how you produce your ingredients and stuff like that. And then each laboratory had to make their own standard operating procedures set up so that they, because they're the ones who are working really close with producers and the growers and what they're going to put on the line. So we envisioned sort of a similar model in Vermont or would that create too much of a bottleneck? Because if they did move forward with an unlimited number of small facilities then that's more testing than if it was a few big ones. So having the laboratory responsible for taking the samples, would that create a bottleneck? I don't know what appropriate, how to put up a Vermont stamp, but make it ours. Right, right. So what I hear you asking is that would you allow the growers to have their own samplers and send them off to a lab versus whether the laboratories had to go out and provide all that service? Yeah. So in the cost of what's your auditing process look like for bad actors? I mean their enforcement. Yeah. Because that puts a lot of burden on you as well. Are you going to go auditing samplers and making sure that they're not just going and picking their one? Right. Like they purge this, concentrate a little bit longer so that they send it all out. I mean when you have a product or a harvest lot that even had any of pesticides in it over the action limit is destroyed in most cases. Yeah. Or even microbial stuff or whatever. Do you think you can fix it so that it works? I'm not quite sure about who you're going to trust to do that. Yep. Because nobody likes to throw away pot. Right on. Nobody. I mean even when they... Your operation is going to just increase your cost of compliance you know higher and higher and that's probably not a burden you want to lay on. For all the reasons that you just brought up it's not something you want to lay on. It's something you want to control from your side. Yeah. And it really... How big are you allowing these harvest lots to be? I'm not really sure of what... You know. Because when you go to get an incremental sample from a table this size it's quite an effort. We got a representative sample from a 3 acre hand field stuff. No. We had way more than what I was willing to take. Right. Right. I mean so that's... That's the big picture. How are you going to take 3 acre field and get it down to three buckets of flour to make a sample and then not only that how much of that can you send back to them after a sample or have you got to get rid of it all? You know. Some of it doesn't... I know in Oregon some of the labs are having a bigger problem than rid of all the extra. Mm-hmm. I just... That chain of custody the verification is... is our biggest issue I think. I think we have... Documentation, documentation, documentation. Even for the sample. There's... number lot numbers and specific weights and documentation of how they got that representative sample. I mean I don't know having not been involved with any of the state audits that you're doing right now I don't know how you're doing to have documentation. Like... Do... There's gamut operating procedures for the samplers right now? So... We have put together a post-harvest sampling guide but it's just guidance to help people understand how to get a comprehensive sample or you know represent. Representative... Yeah, something like that. A representative sample. So we do have this and it's kind of a recommended practice. I'll admit. That is on the website. Yes. And then we also have forms. Yeah. Also on the website. So we're running... We're sort of running a TRESPA verify system at the camp program. USDA under their... What's it called in TRESPA? It's not called that. It's sort of what we're doing in the program. We trust that folks are doing it right but we do send... We do take really new samples ourselves and running that around. So we have post-harvest and we also have pre-harvest sampling documents. Sampling protocols sampling forms and a chain of custody forms as well. These have to be followed because it's associated with our pilot program and eventually it's going to be a state approved plan. And now it's... What's working? What's your... It's... Most folks want to do the right thing. Everybody wants to... It happens of sort of... Everybody's sort of muted as a gift but you know it's the first time that we've come out of Canada's prohibition is with the health market. And folks have been very straightforward and have been trying very hard to do the right thing. That Keith will work for Northeast Processing if somebody's health was over 1.3 then we would take him. So it was on the producer and the processor and everybody was sort of doing their best to be compliant. Yeah, we have about a 70% compliance rate relative to the preharvest sampling and all of our testing requirements and we're only a little over a year into the program and I feel like that's pretty good. And that's based on the folks that we've reached out to and we try to get to 20% but we reach out a lot. We do a lot of education work in PBM but I think it's going pretty well. It's primarily like it might be failure to test on a contaminant and failure to provide a record but that does, we can again provide compliance assistance to help educate folks on the complete breadth of what they need to participate in the program. Where some of the producers or growers got into trouble with growing 20 varieties of hemp and each individual variety was the hardest lot. And the hardest lot it was okay to test for one or two but when you were testing for 20 with a full battery of tests it was cost-per-hit. So the percentage for what they used for sampling of either cannabis or any other product. So, you know, percentage of the total a lot meant. So for instance, in California it's at 0.35% of the entire you know product whether it's flour or concentrate or if it's more than that we tested. It depends on the hardest lot. I mean, what are you talking about in terms of potency or just the percentage of the increments that they need for sampling. Yeah, it's all in there. So that's a view of the sample in other words.  So the scale of the lot determines the amount of material however the lab may then is that some sample that can use some sub-sampling. Yes, it depends. And then they only test that sub-sample. So there's still this volume of material left over like the lab that needs to deal with which is what you said earlier. Having those clearly defined I think would be advocated for increments especially small things. Yeah, a scale rather than a yeah. This is different for post-harvest sampling protocol. I want to say that we actually might refer to the amount of material that needs that there's a fair bit of scale. Remember? Now we do collect depending on the size as well. But then we also I think acknowledge the fact that we know it loosely that we don't want to take too much material either and that an individual should be in contact with their lab to understand what it's needed in order to get to run a test. Yeah. So we might need to lend two things into one. This is available on our website. I mean in terms of what you require these items right on So I think for our next steps should I track down the Oregon SOPs or you said you were involved in writing them? I have them. I can even email them to you. Yep, send me the Oregon SOPs and we'll get them to you. They used to have three. They used to have one for for product. But then they included that it would be easy enough to just put the concentrate with the product. That makes sense. And we'll send you the our lab certification and lab certification to look at and we'll think It is pretty expensive for them to get the 17.025 accreditation. I think is that why you guys decided to do that versus Is that your continued effort to do? Are you going to continue to do that? So these are hemp labs and Some are food labs. Some are food labs. I think there ought to be a way outside of that third party sort of certification to I mean you can be ISO certified it doesn't mean you produce a good result because it's documented. I would rather see a performance standard but for right now I think ISO is what we have. No ISOs probably one a year. And the thing is as we move this market forward we're going to need a lot more than eight labs. I know. Are you going to have the manpower do that? So we'll have a state lab but that'll be sort of mandatory lab. So these are what this looks like. Do you have an HDMI connected on the side of here? Yeah. Unfortunately it's going to have to remember them down here. Okay that's not long enough. I think it's probably the other day though. The HDMI. I noticed a lot of other states that are missing. Are there products? Yeah. So without the different set of requirements for the next years and for the straight plan. So at that point it's no longer hemp. The product is no longer a hemp product. So that will be up to the control board to decide. I hope to see it. One is a regulated cannabinoid, one isn't. Which product? I think the protocol for those will be an evolution of discussions. We do see a lot of demand and need for mixed cannabinoid flour and concentrates. So what happens to the hot hemp growers then? And then put their product in place? Or they'll have to be cannabinoid devices? So that will again be something that the control board will have to make a decision on. I know what my opinion will be but I don't think that's what U.S. didn't have in mind when they said you can bring me a hot crop. Right. And at that point where do you fit? You've just grown 10 acres. Everybody else is allowed to grow 1,000 square feet. What then? And I know there are folks in the state that are making Delta 8 and Delta 9 out of CBD that the control board will have to decide if those will be allowed into a rec market. We're just working on the lab stuff right now. I think those are questions that are more directed at commissioners of the board. I'm sorry, I mean I would love to answer your question. But it's not my call. I'm curious. So what can you do right now with him that's over focusing? Destroy it. Destroy it. USDA has a provision for mediating crops but it's more or less destroying the flower or there's another opportunity for the camera. Oh, biomass. So until moving the flower with stock material to bring it below the 0.3 those are your only two options under USDA. So you were asking about the percentage in this increments. There is a whole table in the back of these SOPs for the the size. Are they based on policies set by the health department and or commission that's set in law? These are all done by the Department of Health. Okay. No, so they because they have a whole another set of laws on the whole manifest for the harvest lots documenting that and there's a whole that's all but these were done for the laboratories and I mean they at the time we used a lot of different people to get them into into law. They are pretty much law I think I mean you have to follow these and document it for the food but when you get down to the processing and the increments the sample size are pretty much and it is all about the batch size. That's acceptable. Can we find out sort of the cost of a battery at tests in Oregon that we can call for? I probably could find that out. I think it would be worth it. I actually have some good laboratory contacts there as well to you know Rose City and some other ones that both have their own facilities as well as their their producers. I think that would be an important data. Yeah. Looks like they've done a lot of good work there. That's the one that's for flour or usable they call it now they don't even call it flour. And then this one is for concentrates extracts and product and I think you mentioned California used a lot of their stuff as well because the same people were asked by California to help them develop some. But they never got down to this detail. Yeah, I mean thanks for mentioning that. I would add that our organization is close to the Humboldt County Corrosion Alliance and we're pleased with what California does and also Oregon also specifically for my program now that's sort of becoming a contentious issue. So you guys do a good job with that. That would be interesting for a lot of the systems. But they do require training. That's the one thing they say the samplers have to be trained and the training has to be documented. They have to know what they're doing. They have to so here it's always based on the weight the batch weight. And so in Oregon the labs are the ones that employ the samplers. Have you ever heard of any discussion or aware of other states where it's just an industry that arises of its own and samplers are just the industry? And you said that there were some in Oregon but doesn't they now wear for the labs? I wasn't sure. Most of them were all labs that I worked with. They've been revamping it a little bit more because they have the training within their own facilities now. They contracted with me to do the training as well and I'm like you can train the training. I don't need to come here every year because every year you have to document that these samplers are trained for an eight hour day just like if you were doing OSHA. You're doing and so it was really within their own groups of producers and processes and laboratories. So I don't know let's see what they changed. I mean I think yeah this just had to do with quality controls and some of the things that were going on but that's all available on their website. But I can email these to you too. Yeah let's do that and we'll make sure that the board has a copy just so that will be our and then it's essentially a couple of options. In addition to training in addition to testing specifically is there any interest from the consumer protection world whether or not there should be specific actions that a grower or processor should take in order like besides testing which is important but like risk reduction in their actual practices and say that again. So growers and processors should this program include risk reduction activities. You mentioned the asset plan but is there should we outline what those are or suggest that that be included for growers and processors that you under if you That was more or less the triage what tests were needed on end product. That's right. But still this could just be you've got to follow these practices and you have to do these tests I think we quality starts before testing I think we build the goal standard and then put it out for comments because of the balancing act between we don't want to make the regulated product exponentially more expensive than the non-regulated product or we're not going to balance the market so we have to see what the cost is and what sort of I think I hadn't even considered the price of having the sample taken that could be significant your charging mileage to and from just about well I think there's a balance here and I don't know what it is but let's build the goal standard which would be all product tested using certified licensed samplers going to certified licensed labs and see what that looks like I mean they didn't require their samplers to get any type of certification documentation of the training and as we used to tell them once you get trained or once your quality assurance person gets trained they can train the other samplers as long as it's really well documented and they have a training program of some sort the same way when NELAP requires you to get ethics training you know that kind of training on a GCMS or an HPLC you have to demonstrate some kind of competency in that manner the other sort of thing that could happen is we build the we have these certified labs but we do a sampling of the product on the shelves to test for all these parameters and that would not be on the producers but it wouldn't be every sample it's kind of what we do with our feed and fertilizer programs and just that sort of enforcement presence ups the quality of the product in the state in those particular programs I do like the idea of how to test it but if we're dealing with everybody and their brother growing moving their backyard to 1,000 square feet of chemistry in the cell I don't see if it's going to get tested on in a timely manner but we'll build that first like what happened in Oregon their market crashed because the labs weren't up in run I think they've recovered but how do we avoid that? Yeah I mean this doesn't solve the problem in the first year or two but if you have people who participate in the program and do all the testing and they have a proven track record then you get back because that's an opportunity to be a producer that dials back too but then it just becomes Yeah how are you going to limit the cost and that's probably the biggest thing I mean I don't know how you're doing it with the M program right now like you said how is it happening right now? We require the tests We require the tests and how much is that costing you guys? It's a lot It's expensive and that's with the grower at least from last year we didn't grow the ship but taking the samples yourself I know they have the documentation that you followed so trained but then dropping those samples off to the lab requiring the lab to send out a trained sampler to the understanding from the state's perspective that's going to drive up the cost a lot for the lab to be charging when I say a lot it won't be any expensive especially to where you have So where do you send your samples now up to the state or do you First we were working with a private lab in Waterbury as far as I know it's accredited by the state and then at some point we had to deal with a lab that was DEA certified so that was done before which obviously would be impossible In the event that you decide to go to a level of screw minutes where there needs to be DEA certification I don't think one exists and a lab exists in the state but one exists in the area There's one DEA but I think I mean from the hemp perspective all labs beginning in 2023 will have to be DEA registered for hemp production my understanding is that in Oregon the labs that are certified by the Oregon Health Department are also labs that do testing for both cannabis and hemp and my understanding is that DEA is not going to get in the way of that certification program and the ability for those labs to test for both hands crops and hemp crops I'm not in Oregon I don't know how that's playing out but I suspect we maybe could inquire see how that's working That's one of the things I have to say to believe behind me because we didn't do anything but with that lab before it was not exponentially but more expensive than the lab tier and they have the extra levels of accreditation so just speaking to cost everything we're discussing I'm just going to keep driving costs higher and higher to the farmer I have a question do we know how much of the testing is exactly how much of the testing is happening out of state right now for hemp? What do you know that testing is happening out of state? The difference is the hemp producers they could have a tank or field that is one or a slot and they're required to do one battery of tests whereas the high THC cannabis you're potentially going to have a thousand square feet every eight weeks and if it's just one variety then maybe that's your harvest slot if there's multiple varieties in that grow room that's multiple harvest lots so what the hemp producers are required to do once a year the indoor growers are going to be required to do five times a year at a minimum on every different variety so we have the hemp growers saying it's expensive to do the battery tests hemp is worth about half as much depends on who you're selling it to but people are still getting a substantial amount for cut flower for multiple flower and you're growing 10 acres and it's still expensive whereas the high THC that could potentially be overburdening with testing I don't know what the answer is the problem is the equipment is so expensive whether you're doing heavy metals that's the big problem for the lab Keith had his own half million dollar lab just a couple of months ago so it meant the ongoing costs cost but it's not cheap so let's think of action items I'm going to send you those I'm going to kind of agree that the tests are sufficient yep I'm going to apply action items to look at some costs and what the difference I always think that they've included the samplers in the test costs because they have to employ the employee anyway whether the lab is using the sampler for cannabis or water testing they'll go out and collect water samples to maybe charge a little for mileage but not necessarily interested in how many of the labs of the 75 in Oregon are testing beyond cannabis because if you have the equipment to do other tests you're dividing that equipment up amongst many things I can ask that I'm wondering if that feeds to the issue as well because it is the environmental labs that are also inquiring about hemp circulation are they? yes Eurofins I think yeah is a foods lab but they're also going to a cannabis lab or a bill so we'll send you our lab certification we're looking at you send us the Oregon SOPs and check into what the costs are and then we'll we'll meet again this can be a month or something we don't know I think for the start it's going to be we'll meet again in a week or two yeah let us schedule is what it is I'm busy like I said September 1st of October all of the labs excellent alright so we are done for it today


Next planking variation for our handstand preparation is just the normal plank. So we've been working on the short plank and keeping the hip tuck. Now we're gonna increase the intensity. We did it last time by picking one hand up, but now we can increase the intensity on the ab as well by picking my knees up off the ground, okay? So what I'm trying to do there is place some emphasis on the core muscles. It's maybe not quite as strenuous on the arms. Maybe it is, you know, it's a little bit. It's a little more strenuous. So it's hard to compare the long plank two arm to the short plank. So let's do it. The long plank two arm to the short plank one arm. They're a lot different. You could just go from the short plank two arm to the long plank two arm. That's okay as well. But these are just tools in your toolbox for increasing the amount of challenge that you have as you're progressing yourself up through a handstand progression. So do that, take some time. Generally, I want you to do these for a week or two at least, your body needs time to adapt. Your tissues need to change and that process is slow. And you, you know, if you take your time, you get to learn it really slowly, which means you learn it very well. It's hard to forget.


What's going on everyone? Sam here with late sports cards. We are ripping two boxes of 2022 top stadium club chrome baseball hobby for michael m. It's good luck michael See we got in here my friend again what been a minute since i've opened some of this so i'm pretty pumped Let me some stadium club chrome Yeah Probably won't get me if the burr if they're asking that for the burrow. I might go a little lower Because what else was on there there was the the burrow the who else was there Mariana, let me worth more than that. Yeah team team hunter green Like you should put it up for more than the patent or the fault for sure Let's see if it sticks right j rod team of the future rookie straw jackie curbie pocket I don't think there's any right now Preacher That's a gold hoy park a hoy To 50 green dynasty 299 mani machado Do you like that? Oh, there's going to be some time where it's going to be. Yes. It should be yes. It should be yes every Because it's always funny No, once again hear this again.  Yeah Dynasty hobby bias and cal rolly big dumper refractor auto Crats on that one there, uh, michael lubeb and vaveroo Box number two of stadium club chrome baseball Yeah, it's gonna be awesome, dude.  We gotta figure out what we all want. Beam team mcgill cabrera. Yeah, that's true Down there Yeah, as well.  Um, michael, thanks again for the sport buddy. We'll get him right out to you


Just got to do that one last time Then I'll get a spin on I can turn down the spin speed by turning down the power of course But it's gonna it's gonna fall off in a second anyway because look at the slant on that so I'm gonna just catch it Yeah, yeah, yeah, just catch it doesn't actually hurt. I say yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know why there's an instinctive There's an instinctive I just Want bigger ones like Good but definitely game this time.  No, it won't turn


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Big lift on take off, arms go around, eyes up, hands forward. So that I'm living at the same time. Secretly, I'm 60 years old, combined, experienced wise. No, but that's what every minute counts. You know what I mean? We're just going, going, going. There's very little wasted time. So it's good. It's a good thing. And the next two years, I would say, are huge for me. Besides all of the actual contests that I'm working towards, X Games, World Championships, all of those big goals, I still want to retain a sense of self. And also don't forget to be a teenager, because I am 17 and it is important to do teenager things. It's called Paul Goodfield. This is where we met every day for cross-country training after school. A lot of great memories here. I actually was deciding between skiing and running. I was very close to picking running over skiing as a sophomore when I got invited to my first World Cup versus our state championship. For me, my biggest dream was always to go to Stanford. And so I was like, maybe if I run really well, maybe I can run into Stanford or run into another really great school. But eventually, I actually ended up going to the World Cup last minute. It gave me more perspective. I'm like, wow, I might actually be able to make it in skiing. And then after, I kind of got that hope and that spark when I started going on that path. And I'm glad that I did, because being a professional runner is really, really hard. School was definitely always my number one priority. I've always taken it very seriously. And I think my household has always placed a really large emphasis on school when I was four. My grandma taught me three-digit by three-digit multiplication and division. For skiing, when I was in middle school, some of my friends were starting to consider homeschool or ski schools or whatever, like alternative types of education. My mom was very firm on that. I'm glad that she was, because I'm happy with the education that I received and also the normal school experience, because I think that was really important, to have a full class of kids where none of them skied and none of them knew what I was doing. And I wasn't known as Eileen the skier. It's just Eileen from math class or whatever. And so that's really refreshing as well. Eileen F. Gu. I graduated a year early so that I could compete and train for this season and then be Olympics the season after. So I'm taking a gap year after this. I'll actually be out of school for two years. So hopefully I remember things when I actually get into school in the fall of 2022. We'll see. Today is the day. Today is December 11th. And for those of you who don't know, that is the day that Stanford releases their restrictive early action decisions. So this is my dream school. It's the school that I have literally wanted to go to since I was six years old. And it's the only dream that I've had for longer than my dream of going to the Olympics. I live with my grandma, my mom, and my two cats, which are the loves of my life. This is the shrine. And we can kind of see all of my younger medals including my track and field medals. My mom is from Beijing. My grandpa is from Shanghai. And my grandma is from 1919. I'm fluent in Mandarin. So that's always been a huge part of my life, being able to have a secret language with my mom wherever we go. My grandma is definitely the chef of the household. You will always be able to find her chefing it up in the kitchen. She's got a number of specialty dishes, but I think the dumpling making is one of our favorite. One of my favorite. It's not just about eating. It's the family, community, the hanging out. Everybody's contributing. It's a community situation. Teamwork. Woo! That's a little high. Good jingye. She said it couldn't be done. And look who did it. Jingye. Slowly. It's very good. I love dumplings. Can you give me a good set? To leave.  But it goes away quickly and I'm definitely really excited to head to Aspen. Mike seems to switch right as much. Yeah, thanks. So use the days like this where it doesn't matter if we go switch left or right because we can't go big. Build the confidence of when it comes sunny, then we can start elevating it. The plan is to ski switch over the right shoulder and hopefully make it up the wall. As far as cloudy weather days go, today's actually been a really good one. I mean, when you're competing, you never know what conditions are gonna be like. You always have to be able to change your run and also be able to perform in any weather condition. We can't guarantee the weather is gonna be perfect and we can't control it. So we run the contests on the days that they're scheduled and whoever can perform on that day comes out on top. It's currently 7.55. I got out of bed like five minutes ago. And we are about to go live with Olympic Channel. Yesterday I was going to media and I figured out that this is the best spot for lighting and also background. So I kind of just have to kneel here the whole time because if I haven't chaired them, it's too high. This is like genuinely, I thought it was so funny when I first got it. I was like, I'm such an influencer now. Look at me with my ring light. I do that because I don't have blush. So I kind of just slap myself and make it work. So let's bring her on and... Oh my God. To talk to you again, oh my gosh, it's been like a year or I am one of the younger people on the circuit. And so like, even though I've competed a lot now but I still think of myself and you know, I was like the rookie and like the underdog. So, and my bio was graduated high school early and got into Stanford and I was like, I look like such a nerd, like this is so funny. Stay safe. Thank you so much.  Being able to see all the comments and interact with people I think was really cool and people are so supportive. If I do this trick, sometimes I have a tendency to grab early because that's kind of what I do in slope. I like just use the grab to get me around but in part, you can't do that because you don't want a deck.  Fine, I'm going to see if I can do it again and put a little bit more of a flip in it. I just landed really heavily like just directly on it. You okay? Like I can feel it right now. It's like here-ish. Okay. Tender there? Yeah, yeah, that. It feels like there is a very restricted tight band of tissue just right under my thumb there. The reach forward is a killer. This is a pretty minor injury I know but like obviously I don't want to hurt my shoulders so I've got to be careful with that and with that we will be starting training tomorrow morning. I'm going to try a seven with Octo. It is a twister game. We'll see if I get it. Let's go. It's not too far off. Training is so important because it just builds that confidence to be able to actually land the trick and focus on the nerves of the competition rather than the nerves of the actual technique. Honestly, just really excited to be here. It's my first X Games. So I've been working on this pipe run all season. I feel really good about it. I feel confident. I just, I need to go and do it. I need to go lay it down.


Hello, my name is Paolo Crivellari, I'm your lecturer for risk communication in the module Human and Organizational Factors. We will talk about models of risk communication. As you see, there are many different parts of the models of risk communication. There are six different parts and the first one is about the definitions of risk communication. We will see what risk communication is. Generally speaking, there are three main theoretical approaches to risk. Number one, risk assessment is also called technical approach. Number two, risk management is also called a political approach. And number three, risk communication is also called a social process approach. Approach number one, risk assessment defines risk in terms of a value-free and neutral assessment of the probability of negative consequences. Approach number two, risk management has some political, social and economic considerations that are taken into account in order to compare different options and produce successful regulatory outcomes. Approach number three, risk communication conceives risk through public opinion and as understood by the public discourse about technology in which mass media play a crucial role. This is just an analytical distinction. It is a theoretical distinction because in the real world in reality the three approaches overlap. But the distinctions we have made are relevant because they allow us to understand one key issue which is specifically that risk communication is linked to a social approach where two things are most important. The first one is that the general public is relevant in this approach and the second one is that mass media play a key role in this so-called social approach. In order to understand what risk communication is, we have first to define what communication is, what risk is and finally what risk communication means. Communication stems from Latin roots and originally the word means to share. So in this concept of communication there is the idea of sharing something with someone. Communication has some features, for example communication has some implicit stakes that are not really visible or explicit all the time and another feature of communication is that messages are often ambiguous due to some ambiguities in everyday natural language. We have now to define what risk is. Generally speaking, there are many definitions of risk. For example, scientific definition of risk or technical ones. We refer in these lectures to manufactured risks. So natural risk or risk caused by nature is not taken into account in these lectures. For example, we don't deal with rogue ways, earthquakes or volcanoes. We will refer to risks that are caused by human activities. So for the purposes of our lectures, risk is conceived as the probability that a substance or a human activity may result in adverse health effects for a given population. We have now to define what risk communication is and for our lectures, risk communication will be considered as a verbal and or written communication between two or more actors, at least two but sometimes many more, which is intentional which means that non-intentional communication will be avoided in these lectures. A communication that is ambiguous, that can have some ambiguities due to natural language and that has some explicit but also some implicit stakes. Risk communication in these lectures will be conceived as something that is intended to inform, to give information to citizens and to the general population, to foster dialogue which means to initiate participatory processes with citizens and which is intended possibly to make decisions for the public good. And this is applied to a technological risk. So risk communication for our purposes will be a peculiar type of communication about technological risks, for example, nanotechnology, genetically modified organisms, base station transmitters for mobile phones or industrial risks that has some goals, for example, to inform, to foster dialogue or to make decisions. In the previous slides, we have defined what risk communication is. In the next presentation, we will see what models of risk communication can be found and we will talk in particular about one of them, the LASUL model.


Sailors stationed at Naval Air Facility Masawa trained Japan Ground Self-Defense Force soldiers in English and U.S. military tactics in an effort to break down the language barrier. In the situation where we do face the contingency, where we have to go into a joint environment, so many times in the past at that time is when we start learning each other's languages or learning a little bit more and delving into the climate and culture of their service. So by doing this early here in Masawa, it really does shape up a better preparation for future contingency if that does occur. Hand there, there you go, forward, bang. Their English skills is the primary objective. They're all learning more English but so much more as far as what we do in the U.S. military. Senior Chief Brian Delcourt, Naval Air Facility Masawa, Japan.


With the 93rd pick in the 2020 NFL draft the Tennessee Titans like Darrington Evans running back Appalachian State All right, new Smyrna Beach High School stand up Darrington Evans is there by the way after a very impressive show He got with the combine he got a call from Niners running back Raheem Mostert Who was also from the same high school in New Smyrna Beach just saying great job way to go and Evans said that made a lot of difference for him. Hey App State running back Let's go to an App State quarterback Daniel Jeremiah. Tell us about Darrington Evans Well now the draft has officially started right because we have an App State mountaineer that is off the board and Darrington Evans It's gonna be fun to watch him pair up with Derek Henry because if Derek Henry is mr. Power This is mr. Speed Louis has used the term that one-cut runner and that's this kid when he gets his foot in the ground and gets north and south You are not gonna catch him that 4-4-1 speed shows up in a big way He also has the ability to help out in the return game the Penn State game that great game between App State and Penn State a Couple years ago. He took a kickoff back for a touchdown in that one So big time big time top juice and boys. It's the best fight song. It's out there So let's not let's not give the people what they want here Nobody like us no mountaineers mountaineers mountaineers always a winning tray. We're always a grinning always a feeling fine. Hey