So I hope everybody had a nice break, but I'm going to get you recovered by now. So I'm going to sort of pick up a little bit of that thought. So we were working on, well, so we had done separable differential equations. We're going to move on to another type of differential equations. This is not in the book, so there are some notes. On the second word, we've got some equations. I forgot the word complicated equations. So these are, there's a link to these on the schedule page. The type of differential equation is pretty straightforward to solve. It comes up a lot in various applications. I was talking to people in biomedical engineering the other day. They were very happy to do this in NAPLM 32. They said they would show it under the NAPLM 31. But the standard kind of physical system that corresponds to this differential equation, I already talked about it once, a little, is if you have, say, a weight, this is a weight on a spring, and you pull it down and you let it go, then it can do various things. But if you know a little bit of physics, the weight, the force corresponding to the weight, the force corresponding to the weight affects the acceleration, so that's the second derivative, and then the spring because of the plot is the first derivative. So we have something, these kinds of things. So I'm not really going to talk about the application very much, but a weight on a spring is sort of a standard model for the kind of behavior that you see or, sorry, if you want to model a weight on a spring, you can get these kinds of differential equations. The kinds of differential equations you look like, we're going to do our things like 3y double prime plus, I don't know, I'm just making up numbers, 2y prime minus 4y equals 0, something like that. I'm not going to do that one right away. So this is called a second order because of the weight, because the second derivative involved. The linear is because the linear homogeneous part, this is the homogeneous part, means that it equals 0. Constant coefficients means that these are numbers instead of functions of x. And linear means that the solutions add together. I'll talk about that a little more. So anyway, this is the kind of solution, this is the kind of differential equation we're going to talk about today or maybe Wednesday, depending on how far we get today. So rather than, so this can always be turned into, if we divide through by, like so in general form, this would look something like a y double prime plus b y prime plus cy equals 0 for constants a, b, and c. And we can easily turn this into something that looks like y double prime plus b y prime plus cy equals 0. This is a big C, just by dividing through by a. But I'm really only going to look at this. Okay, so suppose we, let me just try an example here. Let's say we have a fairly simple one, like, oops, that's the wrong one. So let's start with a fairly easy one, like the second derivative. So this is the same thing as the second derivative minus the function equals 0. So let's make it equals, the second derivative equals 0. Okay, so this is the same thing, just setting it all on one side. Now what would you think a solution would look like? Just a guess. e to some power, right? So if I guess e to the constant times x, then what is this telling me? So let's just see. So we just plug in. So if y is e to the x, y prime is k e to the kx. That's an x. And y double prime is k squared e to the kx. And so that would mean that we would have to have, I shouldn't use my board very well, oh well. So if this is true, then that would mean that we would have to have k squared e to the kx minus k e to the kx equals 0. So now we can factor the e to the, so we can factor the e to the k, actually factor this. So if I factor this, I get e to the kx times k times k minus 1 equals 0. So what is this telling me? The possible value is k. e to the kx is never 0. So what can k be? 0 and 1, that's it. So this means that my solutions then look like, so that would mean e to the 0x, and this would give me e to the 1x. So this is a constant. And of course, notice that I could put some constant in front of this, right? So the same thing, well, so these should both work. So e to the 0x is just 1, and e to the 1x is just e to the x. So these both just work, and we can check that. I mean if my y equals 1, then the derivative of y equals 1 is 0, and the second derivative is 0, and certainly 0 equals 0, so that's no problem. And here the same thing is true. If my function is e to the x, then the first derivative is e to the x, and the second derivative is e to the x, so this works too. And if I take any constant of this, if I multiply 1 by any constant, it still works. If I take a, a is some constant, then the derivative of a is 0, the second derivative of a is 0, so that still works. And if I take this and multiply it by b, then b times e to the x the derivative is b e to the x, and the second derivative is b e to the x, so that still works, yeah? I didn't, I just guessed it from the hell of it, and I checked. In fact, for these things, so this is just a guess. He told me the solution was e to the x, and he was right, yeah. So, okay, so let's check that. Multiplying by the solution, everything's good. So y equals a is good. y equals b e to the x still works. Just check it. Adding a constant, well, this is adding a constant. Okay, so what I want to do, instead of doing d plus c, yeah, so I'm going to do that, but I'm going to do it in a different way. So let's call this y1 and let's call this y2. So, if I add these two things together, will that work? Given that y1 solves, and given that y2 solves, shouldn't it be true that y1 plus y2? Does this solve? Well, it should, because if we look at this equation, if it's true for y1, then y1 double prime minus y2 double prime is, minus y1, ah, try that again. y double prime plus y1 is zero, and y2 double prime plus y2 is zero. Then if I add them together, then I'm really just adding zero plus zero. So it still works. So if I add, if I take any multiple of these things, or I add them together, I get another solution. That's what the linear, in the second order linear constant coefficient business means. The linear means if I take multiples, if I take multiples of solutions, or I add them together, I get another solution. Just for the hell of it. I'm trying to find all the solutions I can find with the equation on the board. Right, because this had a prime. So, so, so the equation had, everything was prime, and there was no non-prime term. What should what be negative? Here? Oh, okay. You're right. And this one's minus two. Those are minus two. That's a minus, that's a minus. All the pluses are minuses, except the ones that need to stay plus. So if I group these together, this is zero, and if I group these together, this is zero. Now, this seems like it, so that means that for sure I know this is a solution. Now, the one thing that I can't really prove, or even joke while I can sort of justify, is that there are no other solutions. So the reason we know this is a solution is in order to know that this is all of the solutions. You need a little linear algebra, or you need a little more differential equations theory. So, when you think about what we've been doing with the first order equations, we always get a single constant in our solution. Our solutions always look like A e to the 5 x, or some single constant of integration. Here, because it's second order, I will get two constants of integration. I have to integrate, and then integrate the integral. That means there will be two constants floating around. Here I have two constants. There's not room for more than two constants. I can't justify that other than to just say it's true. It's because these form a vector space, and it's a two-dimensional vector space, so this is enough to span. These are all words from linear algebra. In linear algebra, you develop the theory that there's only two. There's always two. That means that there's other solutions floating around. Here, when I take y2 equals B e to the x, I'm just choosing A equals 0. When I take y1 equals some constant of A, I'm just choosing B equals 0. There are two solutions that can add up and generate everything. This is a specific example, but in fact, this theory is completely general. Yeah? All of them? Here's all of them? Okay, so I'm leading into... I'm going to tell you how to find all of them always. But I haven't done that yet. Just like if I ask you to give... So the word for this is that this is the general, this is the completely general solution. There's nothing more general than this. So it's not general in the sense that you salute it, but general in the sense that it's... I don't know, general. That it's the one that applies to all. So if you have a question that says, find the general solution to this differential equation, it means you need to find both. You need to find two constants, and you just leave them as two constants that you're not saying what they are. This is a particular solution, whatever way. There, e to the x is one solution. Five e to the x is another solution. So if the question says, find any solution or find any solution, then you could just say, y equals zero, we're good. So you have to read the question carefully. You have to know what you're being asked. If I asked you, you know, to make me a cookie, that's different than if I asked you to make me a batch of cookies. You have to listen to the words. If somebody said, okay, bring me a batch of cookies and you bring them one, they'd be a little annoying because they expected to have like 24 or 30 cookies to give to people.  It's kind of annoying. So here, the words are, find the general solution to this differential equation. Let me do another specific example. So say I had something that looked like that. y double prime plus three y prime plus two y equals zero find the general solution. So I'm going to just make the same guess. I'm always going to make this guess, but now I'm going to make the following guess. And I'm going to guess, and here I'm going to switch to lambda instead of k, just because people tend to use lambda. So lambda is just a few further there. So I'm going to guess that the solution looks like y equals e to the lambda x. And if I find two different solutions with two different values of lambda, I claim I will have found them all. So what values of lambda will work? So if y equals e to the lambda x, then y prime is lambda e to the lambda x. And y double prime is lambda squared e to the lambda x. And so that means that this differential equation becomes lambda squared e to the lambda x plus, or not the differential equation, if this is the solution, then I will have this equation. Lambda squared e to the lambda x plus 3 lambda e to the lambda x plus 2 lambda plus 2 e to the lambda x equals zero. And as before, I can factor out the e to the lambda x. This is number zero. And I'm left with lambda squared plus 3 lambda plus 2. And that's supposed to equal zero. So if lambda squared plus 3 lambda plus 2 equals zero, then that's the same thing as saying lambda plus 1 times lambda plus 2 equals zero. Minus 1 for lambda lambda is lambda is minus 1 or lambda is 2. Minus 2. So that means that my solution, so let me just write it the long way and then I'll be matured. So y equals e to the minus x or y equals e to the minus 2x I guess it's not important and should both work. And in fact, just check they both work. And in fact, if I multiply by any constant this one will work. And if I multiply by a constant this one will work. And if I add it together, it will still work. y equals some constant e to the minus x plus some other constant e to the minus 2x. That's my general solution. Now, if I add a constant it's not going to work. I'm going to add c. If I have my constant y equals if my solution is y equals c I don't get a solution here because then that means that y prime is zero. y double prime is zero.  It tells me c is zero. So I can't add non-zero constant to my solutions. I don't get an additive constant of integration. In the same way that if you have an exponential solution you don't add a constant. You multiply by a constant. It only works very rarely if you have an additive constant. Yeah. Yeah, if there's no y-turn you can add a constant. So let me try and do this a little more generally. The example is over and over. In fact, it's a lot faster to do these things than it seems like from what I'm writing. So let's just do it once and for all. Or should I do one more example? Let me do one more. Actually, let me do one more example with numbers and then I will do it generally. So how about 1? y double prime plus y. So this was almost like the last one. I'm going to do this one very fast. I'm not writing anything down. Suppose I guess y equals e to the lambda e to the lambda x. What's going to happen? Well, just look at this. The e to the lambda x factors out and everywhere I have a y prime I get a lambda squared or something. Everywhere I have a y, I mean a y double prime I get a lambda squared, a y prime gives me a lambda So just for looking at this I get lambda squared plus lambda plus 2 equals 0. If I go through all these processes of making this guess and substitutions and so on like I did over there this is what's going to come out. This has a name. It's called And so all the process is everywhere I see a y double prime I write a lambda squared. Everywhere I write a y prime I write a lambda and everywhere I see a y I write a 1. That gives me a new equation. But this is an algebraic equation. I can solve this. This factors as lambda plus what did I do wrong here? Let's make this one a minus. I'm sorry. I'm not ready to do the other one yet. This factors as lambda No, what did I do wrong here? I want this to be a minus, right? Sorry. I'm having trouble with pluses and minuses. Actually try all the combinations one of them will work. There aren't so many. Did I factor this right? I think I factored this right this time. So I factor it. There it is. And now I'm done. A general solution. So this is true when lambda equals lambda or lambda equals plus 1. And so my general solution is just a constant times e to the 2 write a 2 plus another constant times e to the 1x. So I'm done. So that's very easy. These things are actually very easy. Of course we'll make them harder in a second. Too easy. You know. Question hard? Will I make the question harder? A couple more questions. We'll have a whole variety of these. This is the simplest case. So, okay. So when you have one of these guys you write down the characteristic polynomial. You factor it. And your solution is just the roots of the characteristic polynomial of giving the powers to go on the x. That's it. If we suppose before I move on a little bit suppose that I have initial conditions. So to make it a little harder but not really harder harder just more appropriate. So for example suppose that you have a specifics this would model this would solve some differential equation that looks like that. A specific weight. A specific spring. This would give me a specific behavior I want to model. That is suppose I know y of 0 is 0 and y prime of 0 is 1. So this would be some initial conditions. This will tell me the value of A and B. So I just use this is my solution to solve this problem. So I use this equation here. I know that y of x is A e to the minus 2x plus B e to the x. So y prime of x is minus 2a e to the minus 2x plus B e to the x. So y prime of 0 which I happen to know is 0 is 2a negative plus B. And y double prime of x is minus 2 times minus 2 is 4 is still B. So that means that y double prime of 0 is 4a plus B and this was 0 and this was 1. I have no idea why I did that. This is 1 and that's 0. Sorry. My initial condition for y of 0 is 0. Y prime of 0 is 1. So y of 0 is 0 that means A plus B is 0. Y prime of 0 is 1 means negative 2a plus B and I just got carried away here. OK. So now we can solve this. It's easy. Since A plus B is 0 that means A equals negative B. And so since A equals negative B negative 2a plus B is the same thing as, well, I can replace A with negative B but that's negative 2 because it's kind of negative B plus B which is the same as 3B is 1 so B is one-third. So that means that my solution with these initial conditions of course I didn't quite agree with you enough so I'll put it here in box is y of x is minus one-third E to the x plus one-third E to the x. OK. Now look at what this looks like. This is something that goes point. So the graph of this solution looks something like this. Which is what would happen if you have a very powerful strain and a weight and pull it down and you let it go. It's strong because the weight will come down and it will just gradually move back up. OK. So any questions on this? This method is really quite straightforward relatively easy. I didn't really justify why it works but it works because it works. There is a theory why it works but it's not for this class. Yeah. The position of the weight. So I pull it down and I let it go and then level off to some level. With the specific system and specific initial conditions that I gave you certainly see that if I have not quite a heavy weight you might see something that goes like that. So, yeah. OK. So let me just tell you almost well, we just try this again. Let's try it. OK. So here's a fact that I will not justify. I will just say for any second order linear differential equation homogeneous differential equation with constant coefficients which looks like y double prime plus by plus y prime plus cy equals zero. So one like that the general solution is always let me take out the word always. Well, it's always if you know what always means. y of x equals some constant e to the appropriate choice of lambda plus some other constant e to the other appropriate choice of lambda. So this can be proven but to prove this it's typically not in the differential equations class and it uses a little bit of linear algebra. So this is a theorem that you don't really I can't really justify without another year of calculus or so. I could do it faster than that but you take the rest as a method. OK. So this is just always true. Now there's a little bit of coupling on here so let's say almost always because there are a couple of caveats that I didn't write down. So let's look at the general case and notice that in fact we could if we want write down a formula but I don't recommend it if you want to write down a formula for lambda 1 and lambda 2. So let's just look at that y double prime plus b y prime plus c y and see what we get. So if I take y double prime plus some number of b that I'm not telling you by these constant plus c y and we do the same trick I'm going to look for a solution of the form y equals e to the lambda s So the characteristic polynomial is lambda squared plus b lambda plus c equals 0. That's my characteristic polynomial. So for what lambda is this 0? I don't tell you b and c what do we do? We use the quadratic formula. Right. So this is a quadratic and a equals 1 b equals c and the solution to this is b squared oops plus or minus the square root what did they do wrong? negative b sorry negative b plus or minus the square root of b squared minus 4 a is 1 c over 2 So there are the two lambdas that I get out of here So that's lambda 1 and lambda 2 we need it off from the quadratic formula and so now there's a couple of issues here I find why I say almost always but let's still go with the always the interpretation of always and then I probably won't get to the almost So what's the issue here? Yeah So if the discriminant is bigger than 0 how do you do this? You just did two examples you get to do 20 more examples on the homework well maybe not 20 but a couple more examples on the homework What if if b squared minus 4 c is less than 0 what happens to lambda? It becomes complex and lambda is 2 So what? If lambda 1 and lambda 2 are complex they are to cover what b to a complex number is So that's no problem So let's just look at one like that Suppose I have So let's do the easiest one with a complex number So suppose I have y double prime plus y is 0 So that is b is 0 but then 4 c is certainly negative So then my characteristic polynomial is lambda squared minus plus lambda is 0 which is the same thing as saying plus 1, thank you plus 1 equals 0 So lambda is lambda squared is negative 1 so lambda is plus or minus i So if my solution y equals e to the lambda x then just following this little recipe I get y of x equals a e to the ix plus b to the minus ix which looks a little crazy I started off with a differential equation where everything is a real number and somehow I wound up with stuff in terms of e to the ix and e to the minus ix But we talked about this before What can we do with this? I can write it using Euler's formula So I remember that e to the ix is cosine x plus i sin x Right? This is something that we covered a couple weeks ago Euler's formula And so then e to the minus ix is cosine negative x plus i sin negative x Sine is an odd function so I can hold the negative out and the cosine is even So this is the same This is the same as the cosine of x minus i sin So that means that I have the solution e to the minus ix on something which I can write as let me add it first So that means So what happens if I take e to the ix and I add it to the minus ix the sines cancel out minus i sin x plus So this is cosine x plus i sin x plus that's e to the ix cosine x minus i sin If I subtract that If I subtract these two things then the cosines are going to drop out and the sines are going to add together because I have a minus to minus So this is 2i sin x Well I don't like i so just for the heck of it I'm going to multiply everything by i which gives me minus 2 sin x So what does that mean So if you remember the general solution is any multiple of e to the lambda 1x and any multiple of e to the lambda 2x I can choose my multiple and add them together and I get another solution That means I can choose my multiples so that one answer is a cosine and the other answer is a sin So that means that if I want this general solution ae to the ix plus b e to the minus ix For appropriate choices of a and b this becomes let's call it little a little b let's see one little a cosine s and little b sin If I choose little a and little b appropriate complex numbers I can recover these solutions If I choose big a and big b appropriate complex numbers I can get these solutions So this is still true in this case it's just that the lambda has become complex and that means that if we want real solutions they're still there they're just hiding a little bit and this gives us a pair of real solutions and that actually describes the spring that does this kind of thing something that looks like a cosine plus a sin gives you an oscillation like this you can get into an oscillation like this by appropriate signs and closings I'm drawing and fading out so it gives me something like that which can describe the motion of the spring within the absence of friction if you want to throw on friction that's something we're not covering in this class let's call it that that would be the non-homogeneous case that's the dam's case so what have we just done we have one case left to deal with we dealt with this case we dealt with this case when b equals zero well when b equals zero this is wrong I'm sorry when b squared minus 4c is zero when I have to double root this doesn't quite work this is still true as long as lambda 1 and lambda 2 are distinct if lambda 1 equals lambda 2 I don't have enough here I'll do that next time because we're out of time maybe I should do another example of this maybe with some conditions let's start off with one with a complex solution


A body found by the Bemidji Police Department Sunday morning has now been identified. In a release from the Bemidji Police Department, Police Chief Mike Mastin says that shortly after 8 p.m. Saturday evening, officers responded to Lakeview Liquor on a report of an intoxicated male behind the store who could not get up. Officers searched the area and could not locate the male. Officers then searched a nearby wooded area and discovered foot tracks in the snow which had appeared to have been leaving the area. Then on Sunday, officers returned to that wooded area and later discovered the body of 52-year-old Richard Needham of Bemidji. Chief Mastin says there appears to be no indication of foul play and that the case remains under investigation. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


Good afternoon, everybody. I'm Tommy O'Brien, coming to you live from TF9 headquarters in St. Petersburg, Florida, 4 p.m. Eastern Time on Monday as we reach that closing bell and markets finishing barely in the red. Dow Jones, negative 29 points as we come into that closing bell trading $26,382. S&Ps, negative by 1.8 points, barely negative trading at $29.05, NASDAQ, negative by 8 points, again, 1.10 of 8% in the negative, NASDAQ trading $79.76, and Russell actually negative by 6 points, that's 4.10 of a percent, trading at $15.78. So we finish up the day checking in on the VIX, market clawed back. Most of the losses we had earlier in the day, the VIX trading to lower territory as you would expect $12.36. Jumping over to some of the futures markets as we bring in that closing bell, we'll start it off with the Dow. Dow early this morning, $26,472. We finish almost 100 points below that level, $26,385 in the Dow. NASDAQ 100, quite a day in terms of lows of $7,600 basically. We made it to $75,99 briefly, but we clawed back all of those early losses to basically settle right where we were coming into the opening bell in the NASDAQ 100, $7,651. We'll jump over to Amazon stock in a moment. You check that out. That probably had a big effect on it in terms of the downward and then the reversal it had in the middle of the day. S&Ps, $2,909 currently. Excuse me, crude oil, $63.64. Reversed its downfall through most of the day as well. Gold contract accelerated from about $9.30 this morning, $12.85, currently trading at $12.90, and Euro-US Dollar trading $13.04. So as I was just jumping around to get ready for this top-of-the-hour update, jumping around to some of those fang stocks and check out Amazon. The morning? Not so kind. The afternoon? Very kind. Amazon trades all the way from $18.41 down to $18.18. Excuse me, and clawed back all of those to $18.43.33, quite a number. We had Goldman Sachs with their earnings early this morning. Didn't claw back anything as they finished basically at session lows, $244. You had Citibank out with their earnings as well. Just finished barely in the negative, not bad in terms of where they were earlier in the day. And we got Bank of America tomorrow. They were down 1.2%. We also get Netflix tomorrow. That's what had me going around those fang stocks down 1.2%. And we get Morgan Stanley on Wednesday to finish up those banks down 1.4% today. Stay tuned, folks. We got Dave White coming up for the second hour, live with the Tom O'Brien Show from 4-Till 5. Stay tuned. Dave White coming up right now.


A fiery horse with a speed of light, a cloud of dust in the heart of Ohio Silver, the Lone Ranger. The western United States was first opened to settlers, and the wagon trains pushed west to the Mississippi. The pioneers were faced with many dangers. Outlaws in hostile Indians roamed the territory. The country was rough and the trails were poorly marked. Without the help of the masked rider of the planes, many of the immigrants would never have reached their destination. It was the Lone Ranger's knowledge of the country, his courage and resourcefulness which made possible the winning of the west. Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear. From out of the past come the thundering hoofbeats of the Great Horse Silver. The Lone Ranger rides again. It was midday, and the wagon train led by Jason Barker had halted on the open plane. Jason himself, astride a heavy bay, was stationed at the head of the long line of covered wagons. His gaze was fixed upon two horsemen who approached from the west to the gallop.  It can't be done, Mr. Barker. It's like we said it'd be. We hadn't gone over a couple of miles into the hills before we found signs of Redskins. We'll have to circle. You don't figure it'd be safe for us, eh? You've got a powerful big party here, Mr. Barker, but just the same, I'd advised you and clear the hills. You wouldn't have no chance. It'll take longer to circle, but it'll be worth it in the end. Marthie? Marthie? Yes, Jason? Come here.  Or do you figure to make a few more miles for sundown? That's my business. Huh? I said that's my business. Say what's getting into you. We do. I hired you men to guide us to Meadville. But you're finished. We'll get along without you. You can go back to Santa City. What, in places of the mind? You have the money? Yes. Give it to me. I reckon you'll find it's all here. If you don't believe me, I cheat no man. Now look here, Mr. Barker. I don't savvy what you... Take your money. But we won't argue with him, Tim. Take it. If he says we're fired, then I guess maybe we are. Dog gone, if I can savvy this.  Yeah? The next time you hire out his guides, don't try to trick the folks you work for. It don't pay. But I said, what's this about? Where'd we trick you? Where'd you get a full notion like that? You suggested riding ahead to scout out the trail through the hills. I'll let you go. It was a test. I wanted to see what you report when you return. Well? You say there's engines ahead. According to you, we ought to circle the hills. You're sure? If we circle, it'll take us an extra three weeks to reach Meadville. Maybe a month. What of it? Ain't that better than risking a fight with the Redskins? Well, it would be. Well, then... If there was any. Huh? If there's any. Why, Dog, on it, there's a thousand at the least in their mill. There ain't. Why, you fool, that's been engineed, Congressman, just as long as I can remember. Huh? But they ain't there now. What? They left the hills more than a month ago. They followed the buffalo herds to the north.  It ain't crazy. It just so happens to be the truth. But where'd you hear it? From a trapper I met in Setter City. Not for now. He'd just come from the hills. He'd been from one noon to the other. I'd never seen Redskins. There's something, Dog, gone funny about this. Just who was this trapper? Did he tell you his name? Yes. Dave Humber. Did you say Dave Humber? I did. Why, Dave's the biggest crook around these parks that ever dodged hanging. And if he's a trapper, then I'm a lawyer by thunder. I expected you'd say something like that. The fact is, when he warned me again here, he said you likely would.  That'll be enough of that. You'll gain nothing by calling him a crook. But, Dog, on it, he is. He didn't act like he was dodging the law. Why should he? He's always been too slick for the law to get anything on him. As a matter of fact, I asked about him. In case you got the notion it's just your word against his. Everybody I asked said Dave Humber was a fine, trustworthy man. Folks in Center City told you that? They did. Well, that beats all. Tim, how can you figure that? I don't know unless... Unless what?  If so be it, it happened to be some of them, you asked. And so be it, they knew he was scheming something and aimed to help. Why, then, they'd tell you just about the same as you claimed you heard. Hang on, Tim, I bet that's it. Dave's up to something, and this is just another one of his crooked schemes. Yeah? And what would he stand to gain by? I don't know, but he's... Then we won't argue no more. Your pay, just clear out. You really mean that? You really figure to make out alone? Without no trouble at all. Gosh, I... I asked it, Tim, if he's fool enough to take Dave's word again hours, then let him. It's nothing to us. Come on, let's get going. I don't like it. Just clear out. All right, then, Jason, we will. But you mark my words, the day you believe the pole cat like Dave is going to be the sorriest day you ever spent. Keep that in mind. And I got a notion the time will come when you will recollect it without no prompting. Adios. Get up, pal.    Well? Are you sure you're done right? There's been other times when you were sure... Of course, I'm sure. A native woman's place to question a man's decision. Get back to the wagon. We'll be starting. Yes, Jason. All right, folks. Whip up the horses. Keep going straight ahead. We're making for the hills.   Come on.  A little more than five miles from the trail was a large wooded depression on the level surface of the plain. There a group of hard-faced men had made camp. Less than two hours after Jason had given the order to head for the hills, a horseman raced from the camp and... Move over there. Move. And high, fellas. Well, Dave, you was right. It worked. Did, eh? What happened? I kept watch from cover when I seen Tim and that other fella ride back to the wagon. You could see they had an argument with Jason. Then they rode off. Which way? Like they was heading for Center City. They were... They were all gone. Who you got over there? Just a red skimmy coat sneaking around camp. Hanging on to him to these sides to tell us what he was spying for. What's your handle? You hear me, engine? Who in blazes are you?  Well, an answer up. Me not talk. Eh. Now how about it? Me not talk. Why, you know... No, Spike. He won't talk. Come on back here. Just let him be. He's had time to think things over a bit. Wonder where he come from. I know. I'll find out before he gets loose again. Spike, which way is that wagon train traveling? You get a chance to see? Them? Shucks, they're making for the hills.  Not them folks. They know to just be a waste of time.  It's a dog gurney easy. I would have said just the opposite. That's why I can scheme things at work and you can't. Now take this fella, Jason Barker, for instance. Suspicious as they make him and stubborn as old get-out. You figured he'd be the last man you'd try to trick and get away with it. I sure thought he'd be. You just gotta know how to handle him, though.   By telling them how smart he was. He was so dog-gone convinced I was telling the truth there that he believed everything else I said along with it. Well, what'll we do now? Just stay on here? For the present? Yeah, that'll feel good. I've been on the move, so dog-gone... You ain't staying, Spike. But look here, Dave. There ain't nothing to do right now. I don't see why I can't... You can stay and rest up for the night. But that's all. Why? The train won't get into the hills till tomorrow sometime. Sure, so why...  But I want you to follow that wagon train all the time it's in the hills. And just to second them red-skinned strike, you hightail back and let us know. But why can't somebody else do that? Who else is there good enough so they won't be caught? Dog-gone, Dave. You can follow them immigrants in a wagon and they'll never see you. It ain't the immigrants I'm worried about. It's the Indians. All them wagons will never get through the hills without the Indians attacking, don't you? Well, then why not wait, say, a week and then ride when we know them immigrants must have been killed? Because if we did that, there wouldn't be nothing left worth of stealing. But the red-skins didn't take themselves in. They wouldn't be burned up. What we gotta do is get there just when they beat the immigrants. But just before, they've had a chance to loot the train. We'll ride down on them like we was reinforcements. Grab what's to be had when they scatter and be on our way before they have time to save it. They got us outnumbered. And what if they don't scatter? You ever see the time Indians didn't when whites attacked? They will at first, all right. You're the boss. Sure, Dave's right, Spike. Dave, you got any notion how much we're likely to get out of this? You pumped Jason any? Plenty. And if there ain't at least 10,000 in cash to be had, besides the grub and other things we can pack away to sell, then I'm loose. Hey, look! He's loose! Hey, stop that! Get that red-skins! How'd he get loose? How do I know? You missed. Shoot again. He's got to the horses.   Well, actually, he's getting away. And if he's sabbied what we were saying, he's heard of plenty. We gotta get him back. Come on! Hit Leather! $100 for the man that brings that red-skins down! Get up there! Get up there! Riding low upon the neck of his powerful stagion, Tonto raced toward the hills. He came at last to a gully and followed it until he reached a small, well-hidden camp. Hold Scout! Hold! Hold! Hold! What's the matter, Kimosabe? He'll ridden Scout hard. Huh? Me ride heap hard. What happened? Me find outlaw. Made Humber? Huh? They saw you? Me fall, get caught, then take Tonto prisoner. They caught you, Tonto? Huh? But how'd you get away? Then not tie Tonto good. Me get loose. Good for you, Kimosabe. Then chase after Tonto. Can they follow? Me not know. Did you learn what they're doing in this part of the country? Did you hear anything to tell you what they're planning? Me hear plenty. Yes?  The people with a wagon train? That's right. And then? Pale face die, outlaw steal cash. Then their scheme won't work. Why it not work? I know the guys who were hired to lead the wagon train. They're old timers. They'd never let them go through the hills where the Indians would attack. Wagons go in hills, though. You're sure? Uh, guide, not with wagons. You mean those immigrants are going ahead without guides in a country like this? Them won't, we know. They'll never get through. We better... What's that? Them outlaw. They trailed you, Tonto. Into the sand. We can't waste time putting it out now. That's right. The wagon train must be one on its way toward the hills by now. And they've got to be warned before the Indians can strike. Let's go, Kimosabe. Tonto! Tonto! Silver! Silver! The curtain falls on the first act of our Lone Ranger drama. Before the next exciting scenes, please permit us to pause for just a few moments. After escaping from Dade, Humber, and his men, the Lone Ranger stopped only long enough to hide his mask and assume a disguise. Several hours later, he and his faithful Indian companion sided the wagon train. It had already threaded the narrow pass which formed the entrance to the hills and had drawn up in a protective circle on a flat plateau several miles beyond. Dust was beginning to fall and the campfires, the emigrants could be seen plainly in the distance. There they are, Tonto. How's my disguise? All right. I'll have a better chance to persuade them. I'm telling the truth that they don't see my mask. See those trees ahead? Me seeing. You leave me there. You can watch our back trail for Dade and his men. It's better that these people don't see you. They'd mistrust an Indian. All right. Here we are, Kimosabe. Now return as quickly as I can. Oh, Scott.  I think they see you, Silver. Who's there? A friend. Oh, Silver. Oh, boy. Who's your leader here? He's coming, mister. I just called him. We're heading for a meat field like us. Now I just... Howdy, stranger. You're the leader of this wagon train? Uh-huh. That's me. Yet yet. If you ain't, the women folks are just getting the vitals ready and you're welcome to have... That can wait. I'd advise you to forget food for the present and pull out of here. Huh? Hasn't anyone warned you that this was Indian country? The Redskins in these hills will attack whites at any opportunity.  About what? Well, you see, stranger, I knew this was Indian country right enough. But they done cleared out. Ain't a one of them in the hills. They've fallen the buffalo to get meat for the winter. I've been in and around these hills for the past month. Yeah? In that time, I've seen no less than a hundred Indians. That means there's at least ten times more I haven't seen. You chose the hill trail believing yourself safe. You're badly mistaken. Oh, stranger, you must have made a mistake somehow. I got my information on right good authority. Look, Jason, well, this fella's saying just the same as those fellas that was gardeners did. And I'm beginning to think that maybe we've been banking too much on that trapper's say so. It seems to me that it don't... Dan? Mr. Humber must have known. Humber did you say? You know him? If it's Dade Humber, I do. It's the same one. He's the fella told me about the Indians leaving the hills. Dade Humber isn't a trapper. He's a crook. Just what them guys said. You got something against him?  That's why I'm here. To see that he's brought to justice.  I'm not a lawman, but I help... Oh, not you say? No. Then if Dade Humber's a crook, which I ain't admitting just on your word, stranger, just what authority you got to jail him? That doesn't matter. What does matter is the fact that you're in danger. Your party will never get through these hills alive. Mr. You're up to something. You think so? I don't know what it is, and I don't care. Maybe your friend to them guides I fired, figuring to get their jobs back from. Maybe it's something else. But whatever it is, I'm free to say you won't get away with it. In other words, you mean you intend to keep on going. Is that it? I do. That's plain enough, ain't it? Door gone, Jason. You listen to me. I'm the leader of this party, Dan. Sure you are. But you're door gone stubborn, too. You've made your share of mistakes before this. Maybe you can tell us what to do most times, but when it's our lives we're risking, the rest of us should have something to say.  I met that Dade Humber just like you did, and I didn't like his cut. He soft-soaked you. You figured him to be the finest fella you ever met up with. Well, he didn't soft-soap me none, and I still don't like him. And I'm telling you right here and now what we're going to do. Well, we're calling everybody together. You can have your say and the stranger can have his. When everybody's had the chance to listen to both sides and decide for themselves, then if they still want to go ahead, that's all right with me. But if they decide to turn back and circle the hills, by thunder you'll do it. I've got no objection to seeing what the rest have to say. You ain't? Because I know they'll do like I tell them. All right, call them together. The immigrants gathered around their leader ready to take part in the discussion. Jason soon learned that his customer making decisions without consulting his companions had become increasingly unpopular. And when the Lone Ranger had finished speaking... Folks, I don't know what the rest of you think, but what the stranger just said makes sense to me. I'm for turning back while we still got our scouts. Oh my, Jason, how about the rest of you? Well, wait, folks. Circling the hills means all them extra weeks. It means... We've heard all that already. And I say there ain't no sense in going over it again. You said it was up to us to decide, Jason, and you divide by it.  Er, doggone fools. Well, if they can stand spending a month or so extra on the trail, I reckon I can. Look here, stranger. Yes? You've won out.  Do we turn back now or wait till morning? I doubt the Indians already know you're here. If there are any. There are. The villages are quite a few miles into the hills. They believe you intend to continue on. No doubt they'll wait until you've reached a place where an attack would be safer. Meaning? There should be no danger in staying here until morning as long as you post proper guards. In the morning you can back trail and be out of the hills before the Indians realize you're escaping. You seem to be the boss around here. All right, folks. You can do what you please. We're staying here for the night. Hey! Look, there's a redstead! Grab your gun! Shoot him down! Maybe there's more! Hold on! Put down those guns! It's a redstead, I tell you! It's Kondo! Tell you, Kimozabe! Don't fire, I tell you! Kondo's a friend!  What is a Kondo? It's me. It's me, the outlaw. Tate? They're here? Then a pass. What are they doing at the pass? Them got blasts and powders. Wagons go back. Them blow up pass. What? What's the matter, stranger? What's happened? You can't go back! If you do, you'll never get through the pass. You'll have to go through the hills! What's this all about? You'll have known the Indians appear, Jason. Yeah, worse. White Runagage will prey upon their own race. What are you talking about? Go ahead and you'll meet the Indians. Return and the pass will be blocked. But do as I say and we'll find a way out yet. The Lone Ranger explained the plan he had in mind and the men of the party carried out his orders. In the morning, the train moved on. Meanwhile, the outlaws had made a new camp at the pass and... Did Spike say the wagons was keeping on, Dade? Yeah. He was watching when they started out this morning. They signal us when to come. They've attacked a day here. They'll have to ride back here. If it's later, then he'll build a smoke signal. Don't worry, then. You'll get word to us all right. Well, the sooner we hear the better. I'm getting tired of this. I want to get back to town. You will. And when you do, you'll have your pockets lined with cash. How does that hit you? Good enough. Wait. Huh? You hear anything? That's a horse. Coming this way to Gallup. I wonder... Look, it's white. You think this happened already? You figure it's time to ride? Wake up the boys and tell them to get to the saddle. If the engines are struck already, we'll be out of way. Right! Come on, boys! Spike! Hi there! Spike! The engines! The engines are struck! You hear that man? Get to the saddle, like I said. Hold on! Hold on! Hold on! Where they're engines at? Where they're attacked? Not a dozen miles down the trail. Right where it cuts off to the west. They got guns? Not many that I could see. And here's where we collect. Come on! Spur them horses till they run faster than they know how! Get up, man!  Scurrying and whipping their horses, Dade and his men swept up the trail. As they approached the scene of the attack after less than an hour of hard riding, they heard shots and gunfire. And when they pressed to the rise, they saw the train surrounded by savages. And for almost half an hour, they watched the battle below them. They've sure been going at hot and heavy. Just about over there. Look there. See them far wagons? They've been a shot fired from them in the last ten minutes. There's another where they've all been killed off. They've been on their way to ride. Ain't it just about time? I don't think there's one of them immigrants left, Dade. Look, them redskins are getting off their horses. They wouldn't be doing that if it wasn't over. Right. All right, fellas, listen carefully. Follow me when I start. Whoop and holler as loud as you can and fire your guns as fast as you can load them. Make them Indians think there's a couple of regiments swooping down on them. Grab what you can and light out again when I say the word. Everybody got that straight? Then let's go! Get up, man!  Weeping down on the wagon train, the outlaws fired wildly and yelled at the tops of their voices. The Indians below looked up and the parents surprised. Milled about in confusion for a moment. Then jumped to the backs of their mouths and disappeared in the forest. The outlaws raced on toward the silent wagons. Make it fast, boys! You watch as the engines don't turn back if they do get the signal. Right! Ain't nobody moving! Pull up! Oh, oh, oh! PQ and Redstone over there. Mike Huber down awaits. Snake, take the rest of the boys and stuff on the other end. Get all the cash and everything else we can carry that's worth it. And be blames sure you don't overlook nothing. Now get moving! Come on, fellas. We ain't got much time. Oh, fire three shots. We have to light out. You move! What's up? Drop that gun! Take them in! One, two, three, four! Last Tuesday, one time, you didn't get away with a date. We got the scum.  They yell at poor cats. That's the way you fellas come from. We thought you was all killed. Because it's strange that they're skinned it that way. Them fellas you thought were engines were just some of us with our skin stains. We've done it to draw you coyotes from the past. Now just try and blow up the past so as we can't get through.  You had let them pull you. I was high enough. You'd have been pulled just like I was. And you didn't claim difference. That'll be enough. They ain't you and your men are going to Meadville with a wagon train. Now you'll be turned over to the law. You can't keep still. New Jason, you'll have to back trail until you reach the plains again. Then circle the hills. You still have time if you hurry. Just as you say, friend. He's learned his lesson, stranger. Good. Come on, Tutter. Hey! Get it over with! Get it over with! Now why in blazer did he leave in such a big hurry, Martha? Landscapes, I don't know. All I know is that we'd better hustle and do the same. And if it weren't for them, we wouldn't be able to. This is a copyrighted feature of the Lone Ranger Incorporated.


Dupont presents Judith Anderson and Burgess Meredith in Native Land on the Cavalcade of America. There is a quality of voice. There is a song that nobody ever quite forgets. It's the voice of one half of the human race, a woman's voice. It's something to reduce the shock of being born. Something to make death a little easier to face. A comfort in time of sorrow, a lullaby. Our play tonight is as simple as that lullaby and is old. And yet it is for today and of today. And so, through this medium of radio, we are going to bring you some old stories and some new stories of women. And then we shall see if they don't all add up to one story that is important for today. Dupont, maker of better things for better living through chemistry, presents the distinguished actress of the American stage, Judith Anderson. With Burgess Meredith again as your narrator in Native Land on the Cavalcade of America. Monday, September 29, 1941. We've come a long way and we will go on from here. For there is an originator among us, a creator of ourselves, a renewer, a multiplier, a woman. Many things to worry her so much, depending on her. Get out of the patient little tasks, sewing and mending and fixing things over and thinking things over. A citizen of the world is emerging, a new woman. They've been announcing her arrival for a long time. They thought maybe she was Mrs. Pankhurst. She thought she might be like Mary Curie, a scientist, discoverer of elements. Ramilia Earhart, a fire, a pioneer. They didn't know she was not one woman, but many. Not then or when, but right now. Monday, 29, 1941. Well, here we are again. They're even bringing back the styles, making us look like 1918. But it's not like 1918. There's something different this time. I don't mind giving up stockings, but they'll find out lipstick really means something to a woman's morale. I'm not going to sit home, not me. I'm learning his job too, just in case. Sometimes I wonder about bringing more children into the world the way it is. But John wants children, so do I. We can't just stop living no matter what happens. September 29, 1941. Yes, we will go on. There is a comforter, a binder of wounds among us. A nurse and a lover. She is the old and the new principal we always come back to, love. The love stories of our native land are endless. There is one they tell about a woman who was a citizen of this republic when it was still only a hope, only a dream in the minds of a few brave men and women. It's a curious kind of love story, one you have to look at closely even to see the love in it. Judith Anderson is going to play it for you now. It all took place in the kitchen of a farmhouse near Lancaster, Pennsylvania in the third year of the War of Independence, the year 1778. Get away, Miranda. I've got to strain this milk before you get anything. I'll stop your fretting. I declare you've been short-tempered ever since Edward went up to the war. I reckon I have too. Ain't right leaving a lone woman on a farm this way, the milking and the feeding and the plowing to do. Now, what are them dreaded dogs you open up? Ain't no use in my telling them to stop, they don't heed me. Ezra, they always listen to. Well, they've stopped anyway. Now, here's your milk. Someone's outside. Good thing I got Ezra's old flintlock here beside me. Who's there? Speak up, mister. I've got the drawer on you. I'm warning you. Ezra!  I declare a body. I think we was just sparring instead of being old married folks. Now, what's the matter, Ezra? What are you scared of? Well, wait. I'll take a look out.  No, no, no. No one in the yard nor on the road. Why are you worrying about what they do to deserters? Ezra, you ain't... Oh, of course you ain't. A man's got a right to get home and see how his farm's getting on.  You look all starved out. No wonder, coming all the way here from Valley Porge in this weather. Dressed in em' rags. Last I heard tell you it was six months ago from some place called Brandywine. Squawkelson's boy was drumming back from there. Had a leg off. That is how you was in that battle with him. Said you was mighty brave. Made me right proud hearing him talk like that. I reckon lots of men are leaving Valley Porge.  Yeah, yeah, I heard of him. One student in Germany. Lafayette Pulaski. Almost seems like sometimes these foreigners were doing more fighting for independence than we are. Mm-hmm, yeah, I heard tell of that too. This tubing has you drilling the whole day long. Of course, maybe drilling is good in some ways. Maybe if we'd had more drilling of our militia before, we'd still be holding Philadelphia. Oh, I can understand you coming home like this.  But I reckon plenty of them just say that as an excuse to desert. They're my way, I think, and Esra. There ain't no excuse for a deserter. When you think of the ones that stay in there, they're all that's keeping our hopes together these days. Of course you ain't, Esra, I know that. No, no, I ain't laughing at you. I couldn't laugh at a thing like that. Esra, listen, the horseman, he's turned in here. He's coming up the lane. Esra, you get down that wood chest and hide. Come in. Oh, it's you, Squire Kelton. Poor Mrs. Kelton. Pretty sad losing a fine boy like Joe. You tell Miss Kelton I'll be right over. Good night, Squire. You can come out now, Esra. It was Squire. Oh, you heard. Esra, back to Valley Forge. But I thought you said you was gonna stay here on the farm for a while. The cold, Esra, the snow. You ain't got the proper clothes. I miss you, Esra. I miss you more than you'll ever know. No. No, no, no, don't talk like that. No, don't, Esra. Of course it was a mistake, but you're gone back. And we ain't never gonna talk about it again. Kiss me goodbye, Esra. Goodbye. We'll be winning, Esra. Because we got right on our side. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking for you to come back. This woman who sent her man back to Valley Forge was not to be the last of her race. She's lived in many places in her time and looked for her in the hills in the frontier country. The men went there first alone and with them the center of town was a saloon and when the women came, the center of town became a school, a town hall, a courthouse, a skyscraper. A few weeks ago the women changed it again. The center of town was an enclosure of chicken wire piled high with aluminum. Old aluminum, old pots and pans, but not for sale. The people crowded around it admiring the women's gift to their nation. Excuse me. Can I get through, please? Why, sure, Miss Brady. Well, it's my little saucepan. See, it's right on top of the stack there. I want to get it back. Well, Miss Brady... See, my daughter gave it to the man while I was out. I bought one to put in its place. It's brand new. Oh, sure, sure, Miss Brady. We'll swap with you. Don't look much like... I know, but it means a lot to me, Miss Simmons. I've had it almost 20 years. It was a wedding present. The only one I ever got. The little sacrifices, the hundred little things that would help so much, cheerfully given up when the time comes for giving things up. Yes, women are like that. And then there are women as their men sometimes see them. Yes, women are like that, too. It is a woman in East Orange, New Jersey, whose husband is always bringing home convenient little presents. Don't tell me you paid $2.98 for that. Well, that's not much. Look at all the things it'll do. It'll open cans and bottles. It's a glass cutter, a pencil sharpener. It's got a compass in the handle. But we have a can opener, and it paid $3 or $4. It wasn't $3 or $4. It was $2.98. And we haven't got a decent can opener in the house. Here, let me show you. Where's the can you were going to open for supper? This one? I was. You know you could make your work twice as easy if you had any kind of instinct about machinery. Now you just flip this little thing over here. Kind of stiff at first. Arthur, did you hurt yourself? No, no, I just caught my thumb. Very simple. Now you just... Arthur, maybe you better let me... Hand me the hammer out of that drawer. The hammer. Thanks. Now, this thing fits over this thing. What the... The mean's getting cold, dear. Just a minute now. Just a minute. It's been busted when he told it to me. Dear, what's the compass in the handle for? What? How do I know? If I ever get my hand in... Yes, women are like that, as any husband can tell you. And women can tell you some things about themselves. There's a woman in Gary, Indiana, who was talking to a very dear friend from a public phone booth. Well, I simply told her that if it was a child of mine, I'd try to see that he had some manners. And do you know what she had the nerve to tell me? I'll be thrown. Just some people waiting to use the phone. You think it was the only public telephone in town? Well, as I said...  That will be five cents for an additional three minutes, please. Oh, all right. Just a minute. Hang on, Evelyn. Oh, dear. I don't think I have... Lady, I gotta catch a train. Oh, mister, would you mind getting this dime changed for me? But, lady... I'll really be through in just a minute. Yeah, whatever. Are you still there? A man just went to get me some change. Now, where was I? Oh, yes. So I said to her... Well... Women are like that. This week, there was a woman in Eastport, a New England woman, who saw her only son off on the train, a son in an army uniform. Take good care of yourself, son, and write me every time there's a bow. I'll be all right, ma'am. I know, but the place they're sending you to sounds so cool, so far away. Well, goodbye, hon. Goodbye, Sam. Goodbye. New story, an old story. The age-old story of the woman who must say goodbye and wait at home. A great dramatist has caught and told that story in a play that is the acknowledged classic of our time. His name, John Millington Singh. His play, Writers to the Sea. We've chosen it for this story of women and the cavalcade of America because it expresses more eloquently than we can hope to the universal strength of women in every age and time. The Woman of Writers to the Sea is a mother named Mara, played by Judith Anderson. The scene is a tiny island off the Irish coast, but for that matter, it could be any island or any continent. The characters are men and women in all times who face the inevitable. In Aaron, the inevitable is the sea. It's you, Nora. Please, mother. She's lying down in her room, God-helper, and may be sleeping if she's able. Is the sea bad out, Nora? Midland bad, God-helper. And it's worse if it'll be getting one of the tides turned to the wind. What is it you have under your shell, Nora? A shirt and a plain stocking that will cut off a drowned man and Donny Gall. Nora. I, your brother, Michael, they are. He was washed ashore on your Donny Gall after nine full days, God's fairest soul. Oh, Nora. Isn't it a pitiful thing when there's nothing left of a man who was a great rower and fisher, but a bit of an old shirt and a plain stocking? The death of mother, it would be to know of this. And Bartley may be going to the sea this very day. Mother herself is coming. Now, do you put the clothes behind the chimney? Isn't it enough of a fire you have on the half of the day in the evening, Catherine? There's a cake baking at the fire and a glass face, Mother, and Bartley will want it when the tide turns if he goes to Connemara. Bartley won't go this day with a wind rise in the south and west. He won't go this day and leave me destitute with no son living at all. I heard Stephen Fettie and call him Sean saying he would go. Where is he now? He went down to see would there be another boat sailing in the week. I hear someone passing the big stones on the path outside. A bit of new rope was bought in Connemara. Now, do you get it for him, Nora? You'll find it on a nail in the wall where stand the white boards were brought in for making the coffin, if need be.  You do right to leave that rope Bartley hanging there by the boards. It'll be wanting in this place, I'm telling you. If Michael is washed up tomorrow morning or the next morning or any morning in the week for it's a deep grave will make him by the grace of God. I need the rope. Otherwise I've no hearter the way I can ride down on the red mare. And I must go now quickly. This is the one boat going for two weeks or beyond it. An affair will be a good affair for horses I heard them saying below. It's a hard thing they'll be saying below if your brother's body is washed up and there's no man here to make the coffin. And I have to give him a big price for the finest white boards you'll find in Connemara. How would it be washed up mother? And we have to look in each day now for nine days a strong wind blowing a while back from the west and south. And I'll be going down now. But you'll see me coming back again in two days or in three days or maybe in four days if the wind is bad. Isn't it a hard and cruel man won't hear a word from a woman and she is mother holding him from the sea. It's the life of a young man to be doing a man's things mother. We've gone to the sea or whatever need be. And I must go now quickly. I ride down on the red mare and the grey pony will run behind me and fetch a good price at the Galway fair and I bring it back with me for your needs in a day or maybe two days. A blessing of God on you. He's gone now God's curse and we'll not see him again. He's gone now and when the black knight is fallen I'll have no son left me in the world. Why wouldn't you give him your blessing mother and he looking round in the door?  The son of God forgive us Kathleen we'll have to forget him to give Bartley a bit of bread. Here mother, do you take it and let you go down to the well and give it to him and he passin. You'll see him then and the dark word will be broken and you can say God's speed you the way he'll be easy in his mind. Give her the stick Kathleen Michael's stick all that's left of him. I in the big world the old people to believe in things after them for their sons and children but in these days in this place it is the young men to believe in things behind for them that do be old.   I'll tell mother. I've seen the fearfullest thing any person has seen since the day Bride Dower seen the dead man with a child in his arms. Tell us what it was. I went down to the well then Bartley came along and he riding on the red mare and not stopping all the son of God's Paris then I've seen him. What is it you've seen? I've seen Michael himself. Nay mother it wasn't Michael you've seen his body is after being found in the far north and he's got a clean burial for the grace of God. I tell you I'm at the sea in him this day and he riding and galloping Bartley on the red mare and he going by quickly in the blessing of God on you he says I looked up then and there was the grey pony running after and Michael upon it with fine clothes on him and new shoes on his feet. No mother it was not Michael Michael is after being found near Donegal. Give her the clothes of his they found Kathleen so she may see for herself. A bit of shirt and a plain stocking it is his they are surely Bartley will be lost now too let you call in him and make a good coffin out of the white boards for Bartley which is Bartley will be safe mother didn't the young priest say the almighty God wouldn't leave you self destitute with no son living it's little the likes of him knows of the sea I've had a husband and the husband's father and six sons in this house six fine men and some of them were found and some of them were not found but they are gone now a lot of them there were Stephen and Sean were lost in the great wind and found after in the Bay of Gregory and carried up the two of them on the one plank and in by that door that looks out to the sea what's that Kathleen just some colonists from the shore surely they carried them in and I stood here waiting and I seen two women and three women and four women coming in and they crossing themselves and not saying the word Nora it's them the old women and the old men Kathleen Nora is it Pat sure Michael they come for or what is it at all why are the old women coming in like this and I just telling of it they're carrying the thing among them and there's water dripping out of it is it Bartley it is it is surely Maura God rest his soul softly now Patrick nip him up and lay him on the table aye what way now was my sun drawn the grey pony knocked him into the sea and he was washed out where there's a great surf on the white rocks the grey pony is it aye they're all gone six sons and the husband and the husband's father all gone and there isn't anything more the sea can do to me Colm maybe your self name would make a coffin when the sun rises there are nails with the boards there Kathleen there are not Colm we didn't think of the nails the great one that you wouldn't think of the nails it isn't that I haven't prayed for you Bartley and Michael to the Almighty God it isn't that I haven't said prayers in the dark night till you wouldn't know what I'd be saying but it's a great rest I'll have now the way all women have when the time is done and great sleep and in the long night my son Michael has a clean burial in the far north and my son Bartley will have a fine coffin and both of them haven't done what they had to do what more can we want other than that no man at all can be living forever and a woman must be satisfied and she going on with life to the end yes we've come a long way we will go on from here for there is an originator among us a creator of ourselves a multiplier a woman whatever new things she will be doing will be from the ancient source of her strength out of the old and new principle love and courage to go on to native land on the cavalcade of America sponsored by Dupont maker of better things for better living through chemistry the national defense program headlines the news of the day a program so vast it challenges the mind to grasp it planned and executed in typically American style it will succeed partly because all the precious now of American industry is behind it one of the main reasons America has such knowledge is that as a nation we believe in research American industry spends 300 million dollars a year on research with 2300 companies employing more than 70,000 trained research specialists a vast reservoir of knowledge upon which the nation can draw chemistry has long been a leader in research in the United States with chemical industries employing by far the greatest number of research workers the Dupont company alone maintains 31 research laboratories in various sections of the country what do they do? well a laboratory at Richmond Virginia continually works to improve rayon yarn from a Dupont laboratory at Buffalo New York has come fiber D a wonderful new textile fiber which promises better wearing more brilliant moth proof rugs and carpets from a Dupont research group at Deepwater New Jersey came the antioxidants that enable the gasoline you buy today to perform at high efficiency without following your motor from another research group came the first commercial production of freon refrigerant which makes your refrigerator the safe and efficient household friend that is today from still another Dupont research laboratory came nylon research is the very life blood of a chemical company like Dupont in a sense indeed research is the company two kinds of research the kind that tackles an industrial problem and solves it and the other kind of research that sets out just to learn something and then out of knowledge gained out of money and time and energy spent out of the patience and the hard work and the worry comes up smiling with a new plastic a new yarn or a new and better way perhaps of making an old product out of research came the know-how for the American defense production program that is shifting today into high gear and out of research too will come our brighter tomorrow with new industries that may seem as strange at first as the automobile seemed in 1900 or as television seems today bringing Americans new opportunities in the richer happier world that is implicit in the Dupont pledge better things for better living through chemistry next week the cavalcade of America will present the great American actor Paul Muney in an original radio play by the eminent screenwriter Dudley Nichols in this his first play written for radio Dudley Nichols has told the amazing story of Simone Bolivar who first dreamed of Pan-American unity on cavalcade next week Bolivar the liberator starring Paul Muney on the cavalcade of America you have heard of the great American actor Nathan Anderson featured in a dramatic monologue and in a radio adaptation of John Millington sings writers to the sea native land was prepared under the supervision of Robert L. Richards in collaboration with Robert Tallman this is Burgess Meredith sending best wishes from Dupont this is the red network of the national broadcasting cabinet


Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us for Kondo Insider. This is a show about association living, a third of the people living in the state of Hawaii, live in condominiums, and we believe that this show is very relevant for those people and for people who have to deal with them. I'm Jane Sugimura. I'm your co-host, and I'm pleased to have today an industry insider, my co-host on this show, Richard Emery. Richard, do you want to tell us about yourself? Well, thank you. This is an interesting experience being on the other side of the questioning here, but I've lived in Hawaii 42 years, and I've been in the industry of association management for about 25 years. I founded my own association management company back in 1997 that grew to be the third largest management company in Hawaii. And during that process, I participated on various educational lobbying platforms, and as I got older, I sold my company and now I'm a lobbyist for the purchaser. Okay, and today we're going to be talking about problems that boards of directors of condominium associations can create. So tell me, based on your experience, how these boards get into trouble. You know, it's interesting. Well, being on this show, we've had several guests talking about running good meetings, what they believe that seven deadly sins are for boards of directors, and my takeaway having been in industry and operations for a long time is that there's really five specific things that boards either unintentionally or don't understand with regard to successfully managing their association. It begins with number one, which I'm going to call somehow when they're elected, they lose their aloha for the people who they represent. You know, one of our prominent legislators told me once that when you're elected as an official, you represent everybody, even the ones you may not like and the ones you may not agree with. And what happens is it becomes we versus they. They don't seem to put enough attention to listening to people and bringing them into the fold because that owner may not just understand. You may not like them, but they certainly are owners and have a right to be heard and have their problems addressed by the board. And for some reason, boards have a tendency to be dismissive of owners and people who come to meetings with their problems.  And if so, what is that expertise you're supposed to bring to the board? Well, there's no mandatory educational requirements for the board, although there's been discussions about trying to give them certain basic core classes on ethics and owner's rights and things like that. But today, that doesn't exist in our law. I think they're supposed to bring the common sense to know that when they have an issue, they should investigate it, get advice from experts, not ignore it and try to bring about a resolution as peaceful as they can for the owners and the association. And so basically, I mean, it's a given, right, with the boards of directors that people know, they're first of all, they're volunteers, aren't they? Absolutely. None of them get paid. None. And so they get elected and they become board members. And so they come to the board because they happen to know their building and they know their neighbors, they know how the building runs, whether it's good or bad or ugly. And so that may be their expertise. How does a director learn how to do their job? What happens if an issue comes up and it involves a legal issue or an accounting issue or they have to figure out how to fix the roof and now it's an engineering issue. How do they make their decisions? I mean, what can they do if they don't have the expertise when they come to the board? Well, it's an interesting question because certainly the industry, both our organization, Hawaii Council of Community Associations, Community Association Institute, Condominium Council of Maui, all have educational platform for boards. I mean, CAI has a day long called the ABC course for beginning directors. The problem is, like you said, they're volunteers. A lot of them just don't want to go to the training. So now what does the board do when they have a problem before it? I think they should seek the advice of professionals and experts skilled in that area. And more times than not, it's going to be their lawyer when they have an issue to come up about a rule violation or how to handle a specific issue. More times than not, they just have to understand that they're judged by the business judgment rule and they should be seeking people who are trained in this skill for expert advice. And you know, I've sat on some boards and I know I've been in the room when somebody says, oh, that's a legal issue. Let's call our attorney. And there's another board member says, oh, no, if you do that, it's going to cost us money. Well, what's your response to that? I mean, yes, it's going to cost you money, but there's nobody on the board who's qualified to give a legal opinion. And so if it's a legal issue, I think the board needs to have some sort of assistance. Well, they've been elected to protect the association. That may mean the property or maybe the quiet enjoyment of the people who live there. And so if they don't know the answer and it's not clear, they can't ignore taking action. They actually expose themselves to greater liability if they don't do something about it and potential harm to the association.  But the only way we can resolve this issue is someone who's professionally trained and skilled who can give us the best advice without putting the association in harm's way.  And there's a rule for this. There's something called the business judgment role, isn't it? That's correct. And it's in the statute. That's correct. And so basically the statute that 514B basically says if you don't know, and we assume you don't know because you're a volunteer director, and if you follow the business judgment rule, and even if you're wrong, nobody can hold you liable. Well, I think that's the important message because if they follow the expert's advice, they're going to be free and clear and protected and have no liability. But the business judgment rule says you're supposed to use common sense. Just like you, I would never go and try to fix the electrical in my home because I know nothing about electricity. Well, when you have a problem in association, you have all sorts of laws for subject to federal and state laws, all sorts of potential harm. Plus, you have an obligation to take care of the people who live there. And you have to just say, we need to have professional advice from someone who's handled this before to resolve the problem and protect the association from further harm. They just have to hire them. Well, you know, you mentioned, too, something about not paying attention to the owner's concerns. I had a call from an apartment owner, and I always get called. I don't know why people refer me as the person that they should call, but I got a call from a unit owner, and his concern was a noise problem. And he lives in a condominium. He and his wife are in their 80s. And there's a couple next door with small children, and it's 24-7. And it's a very serious situation. They went to their... And their building has got a noise violation house rule. And it's touted there are posters in the hallway saying, you know, please be considerate of your neighbors. This is our noise violation house rule. Please comply. When they went to their board, their board didn't take any action and basically said, oh, it's children. It involves children. It involves noise.  And so we can't do anything. First of all, what is your reaction to that? Well, I don't agree with that in the sense that, you know, all people have a right to quiet and enjoy their home. When you look at noise, whether it's a child or an adult or whoever, making the noise, that disrupts the quiet and enjoyment of the residents there. And considering it's not just a one-time, two-minute event that someone yelled or something, it's a constant problem. The board has an obligation under its rules to notify the owner. And if there's a tenant, notify the owner of the tenant's violations and take action to correct the problem. And the way to stay away from harm's way is not to put it on the children. If you say it's the children, you know, because you have the alternate argument, well, it's a brand new baby that's crying. How do you handle that? That's not what you can do. And those are usually intermittent type situations. We have constant noise, 24-7, of a family focus on the noise issue and notify the owner that they're in violation of the rules and or their tenant is in violation of the rules and they have to take action to resolve the matter. And what about the issue about the Civil Rights Commission? Why would the Civil Rights Commission get involved in a noise violation claim? Well, they probably wouldn't. But if in fact you misworded your claim, this is going back to the attorney to make sure you've got this done properly. And if you made the claim, it's only the children causing the problem. And granted, maybe the children are part of the problem because maybe the family is yelling at them, you know, and they're yelling back, right? But the issue is we focus on just a clear concept that associations have a right to regulate their community and noise is certainly a problem when you're living close quarters. When you move in a condo, you give up certain personal rights and you have to be respectful of living close quarters to others. And you focus on the noise is the problem. To me, it's doubtful the Civil Rights Commission would get involved. But there are situations where they do get involved? Well, they are, but I have not seen one on noise issues with respect to preconditions. I've seen all sorts of issues where it's been alleged that when they restrict the parking stalls, the stalls end up smaller and the person was disabled who had the original stall and they're now missing six inches. And I've seen these kinds of arguments, you know, even with employees of associations when there's alleged discrimination or workplace environment issues. But I've not seen one for noise by the Civil Rights Commission. But in the event of a discrimination, it's not the board that should be telling the unit owner that we can't do this because we're going to get in trouble with the civil rights. No. The first thing they should do is I would interview the owner to make sure the problem exists and maybe the resident manager or other neighbors. Once I've determined the problem exists, I would be, as a board, writing the owner, asking them to not do this anymore. And I always suggest in the beginning, you write politely and treat them as an adult and not have a traffic cop mentality with the first letter out of the box is you've been fined $100 because they have a right to do process as well. That owner could come and say, I disagree with you and the board should hear them as well. But I think what they've got to do is they've got to, at that point in time, talk to the lawyer and they've got to address the complaint. So it goes away one way or another. And they write the owner a letter about the rule violation. So in a situation like this, the first thing the board has to do, basically, is to notify the unit owner. Correct. And if there is a legal problem, the person who's doing the complaining would get a letter from the association's attorney if it's a legal issue. Yeah, I think that the board has to measure whether they have enough expertise to make a decision. Because, you know, we send violation letters all the time for parking. You know, they're in the fire zone and that's both the park here and we just write the standard form letter you're violating. We don't violate any parking rules. So certain types of rules, you probably could just send a letter, right? But if you're endowed as a board, back to the business judgment rule, they should check with their lawyer, do some investigation with regard to the resident manager and the others in the area, determine if the problem exists, and then say we have to resolve this one way or another. Okay, well, we're going to take a break right now and when we come back, we'll see what happens if you can't resolve it amicably. What alternatives are left to the complaining unit owner? Okay. Hi, I'm Chris Lethem here with Think Tech Hawaii and I invite you to watch my show, The Economy and You, each Wednesday at three o'clock here in Hawaii on OC 16. We look forward to seeing you. Aloha. Hello, I'm Marianne Sasaki. Welcome to Think Tech Hawaii, where some of the most interesting conversations in Honolulu go on. I have a show on Wednesdays from one to two called Life in the Law, where we discuss legal issues, politics, governmental topics, and a whole host of issues. I hope you'll join me. Hi, I'm Tyler Sabota and I was actually a guest host on Carl Kompani's Think Tech Hawaii show, Movers, Shakers, and Reformers. And I think you should tune in every Wednesday to find out more about what it is. That's all. Take care. Hello, this is Martin de Speng. I want to get you excited about my new show, which is Humane Architecture for Hawaii and Beyond. We're going to broadcast on Tuesdays, 5 p.m. here on Think Tech Hawaii. Well, welcome back. We are talking to Richard Emery about problems that the board is creating. And we were talking about, the example I used was a unit owner complaining about noise and what the board, how the board should deal with that, what steps the board should take. And one was to write a letter to the unit owner. And then if that didn't work, then they should consult with their attorney about what their choices are. In a situation where the, in this situation, there was a rental agent. And it appears that in my fact situation, the board is dealing with the rental agent. What is your response to that? Well, I don't think it's improper for them to notify the rental agent. But if they're not getting satisfaction, they need to write the ultimate responsible person, which is the homeowner. And they need to put that homeowner on notice that they have a rules violation issue. They can invite them to come in and talk about it. They can sort of take advantage of certain statutory provisions where we have this Act 187, which is an evaluative mediation. But, you know, my experience is that generally works the evaluative mediation. However, there are people who are stubborn where it doesn't work. And you may have to take some type of litigation to resolve this dispute. But you can't, because of money, say I'm going to ignore the problem and that it's just fester. You know, as I said in the beginning, there's five things I think boards do wrong. And in this discussion, we kind of picked on three of them. You know, number one, they're dismissive of the owner. They just say, well, we can't do anything. So they just don't do anything. Number two, they fail to communicate. They fail to tell that owner, okay, we're going to do the following. We're going to write the owner, we've turned it to our attorney. They fail to communicate. So that owner just sits there hearing the noise every night, thinking everybody's ignoring him and doing nothing about it. Because candidly, the wheels of justice do move slowly once in a while. And then number three, there are alternate dispute mechanisms. Decide the lawyer writing a letter. You can file for evaluative mediation. You can file for non-binding arbitration. There are methods, but it all gets back to the board accepting responsibility that they have an obligation for quite enjoyment of the home in this case, noise, and to do something about it. They don't know what to do about it. They need to ask a professional under the business judgment rule to tell them what they can do and how to do it. And in a case like this where you have a tenant that is causing the problem, and you have a unit owner who is told that their tenant is causing the problem but does not appear to do anything, is there anything the association can do in that case? Well, I've had that problem before. What we basically have done with advice of attorney is notify the homeowner that their owner is violating the rules. Their tenant? Yeah, their tenant. And it certainly is helpful for someone to keep a record of the number of times and the dates and the times so there's some kind of historical record to support it. And we tell the owner, look, you need to get your tenant to follow our rules. Otherwise, we are considering filing an action which is provided for the statute to evict the tenant, and we're going to hold you responsible for all the costs. And you know, believe it or not, my experience has been, of course, interested in the commission and busy as well, and I'm not trying to pick on the rental agent. More times not, the homeowner has a stake there. More times not, they get involved and do something about it. But if they're not put on notice and they aren't told about the serious consequences, it's just going to continue to fester among all the parties and the board's not doing its job. All right. And a lot of times with the unit owner, it's not that they don't want to do anything.  So some of them have never dealt with an attorney. So if the board tells them, well, you need to evict this tenant. They probably don't have a clue as to how they do that. That's probably true, and that's why they need the lawyer. But they have to have the resolve to say, we were elected to solve these problems. It may be expensive. You know, these costs will be passed on to the unit owner if it got to that eviction type thing. But they need to look at the fact their job is to provide quiet enjoyment and protect the assets of the building. And that's just what they're elected to do. And they just have to deal with it. And they can't do nothing.  Well, that's the problem. That's why it's on my five lists that some boards do, and that's the wrong thing to do. And they're creating not only problems within their community and dissatisfaction. That reputation spreads in the community. It may affect values. You know, I would bet you if someone was selling that unit and there was a problem with the noise, the seller wanted to disclose the noise, they'd have a hard time selling the unit. And a board has an obligation to protect all this, whether they like it or not. Once they ran for office, they agreed to be responsible. And that's one of the things that they have to do is to make sure that the units in the project remain marketable. One of the things, too, what are some of the other things that the boards do to create problems? I kind of covered the first three in the sense that they've got to be responsible, not be dismissive, be polite to the owners, really talk to them, I teach a national course on customer service. I always say, listening is your best first option. Let them get it off their chest, let them vet and talk about it. Once they've done that, then they've got to take responsibility to solve the problem. And they have all these provisions in the law that can mediate, arbitrate, or, if necessary, they can sue. But the other two things that I find that people understand the statute today and their rights and provides to owners. And the number one thing we see RICO complaints on today are, number one, boards trying to prevent owners from speaking at the meeting. The statute is very clear that owners have a right to deliberate in the meeting. That means boards can't say you can talk in the forum only. They can't set rules up. They certainly have a disruptive owner and there are disruptive owners out there. They can put some rules on, whatever it may be, because we have to get our business done. But they can't be dismissive of the owner's rights with respect to a right to be heard in the meeting, provide their opinion, provide their suggestions. And accompanying that is when owners ask for documents, the statute is very clear with documents they have to give. And boards stall, redact, don't give them everything. They hide thinking they're protecting the association. Where truly owners have rights, they own their, they're paying the fees. You should give them the documents unless the attorney advises you otherwise and you should make sure that they are free to speak. And I want to make sure I say one thing. These issues we're talking about are certainly not with every board. We have a lot of great boards out there, a lot of great volunteers. When you look at the problems in the industry, it's a small few that are not listening to what owners' rights are in the statute and avoiding doing what they should do. And those are the exact people who really need to participate in the alternative dispute resolution programs that have been set up under the statute. And that means value of mediation and arbitration. But somehow we can't seem to get those boards into mediation. And why is that? Well, I think the statute doesn't mandate it. And I think that's one of the things our industry is going to try to change this year in the legislature to force them to go to mediation because the new Act 187 provides a form of a value of mediation where the mediator can actually speak. And usually, and influence. And usually they're retired judges with a lot of experience. And it's a lot different when a mediator is saying, oh, the judge doesn't make you pay all the costs and fees. You're not complying with the law. It makes a big difference when you have that level. And what's wonderful about that program is other than the first hour of time, it's paid for the real estate continuing education fund. So we're already paying fees as an association into that fund. We're not going to use the money to resolve disputes by an independent professional. And that program is relatively new, isn't it? It's about a year and a half. I'm going to say it's about a year and a half, two years old. But by the time a law is passed, it gets signed, the rules are written, the negotiations with the mediator organizations is done. You lose about a year, a year and a half of kind of startup time where it really wasn't in place. I know from the last time I looked, almost all the cases that went to a value of mediation were being resolved. Not everyone, but almost all of the work. Okay. And we're going to be trying to address the loophole by going to change the statute to make it either mandatory or to add consequences to the refusal to mediate. Well, I think we should because, you know, we've gone through a whole litany of different approaches. We had what they called the old condo court. All these things never worked. We came forward and said, nationally the most successful program is a value of mediation and the statute got passed. And now it's in its early stages of starting out because of this time, the startup time. We need to give that a good, fair chance, but unless we get people to participate by mandatory participation, we're not really going to know the full results of it until that's done. And so we have to go into the legislature and try to ask them to to put some penalties One of the issues that, you know, we talked about earlier about, you know, the board's, you know, creating problems are boards who have this mentality about their job is to keep the maintenance fees low. Yep, that's number five on my list, you know. Yeah. Certainly no one wants to pay more money than they have to. If we look at the basic concept of doing a budget for association, it's called a zero base budget. You calculate exactly how much money you need for your electricity and your manager and the cost to maintain the property. By statute, you have to save money for the reserves. At the end that adds up, and then you multiply it by your percentage of ownership and that's your maintenance fee. Well, you know, budget is still a tool in a forecast, budget costs may go up, reserve projections may be inaccurate. So you don't have any profit or wiggle room when things aren't right. So if you think about the fact that every year we have some inflation, but some inflation means costs are going up to some level. And so you start looking at the most common thing I can remember is medical insurance to the employees when the Obamacare got passed. Once you have those costs going up and you get better information on your reserve study, you have to deal with that and address it and realize it's your obligation to make sure you have enough money to pay your bills. And that's why you're seeing assessments of things that people kind of say, well, I don't want to be the one to raise the maintenance fees. I'm just going to find a way not to do that. And they're usually underfunded reserves which creates the loans and the special assessments in the future. Talking about underfunding the reserves and special assessments, explain how that happens. Well, they're supposed to do a reserve study by law and as you know, I was the co-author of the part of the reserve law and I have the highest reserve study in the country. First of all, national standards say the reserves are the budgeting tool. So, you know, we're asking to pick inflation, the interest in engineering money, the useful life, how long it's really going to last, what the cost is 17 years from now to replace it. There's a lot of room for error that's naturally going to occur with respect to doing a reserve study. But the board doesn't annually as a part of the budgeting process go through the components of the reserve study. At certain times get expert advice on what the true cost of replacement would be in 2016 standards, for example. And really put some time in it you end up not funding the reserves properly. The second thing is that, and this goes back to 2009 or 10, I believe, when all of a sudden electricity costs went through the roof. So, to pay the electric bill, they didn't have money to fund the reserves. When it comes to next year's budget, they've got to deal with it and say, well, we didn't put the money in reserves, we don't have to raise maintenance fees for that. Basically, boards just come in with the idea, we don't want to raise maintenance fees. Let's make the numbers fit that we don't have to raise maintenance fees versus taking a progressive approach on it. And then when they have to have the money to do a repair that wasn't expected, they just don't have the money. And then that's when the special assessments happen. I know we're running out of time, but I'll try to have three sentences say that the big common problem today is what they call cast iron pipes. They were showing a hundred year life, and we're finding out it's more like 40 years. Well, how would a board project end, so how could you avoid that assessment? Probably unlikely. So, it's not an easy task, but the best thing to do is each year carefully review it, spend some time on it because raising maintenance fees is using necessity. Okay, well, thank you very much for that assessment. And I think we've only kind of scraped the issue, I mean, scraped the surface on this issue, so we're going to have to revisit it. But thank you very much for appearing with us today, and next week we'll have another program with another interesting topic. Yep, I forward to it. Thank you for joining us.