This talk is called Art Seeker And it's about using headless Drupal to power an AI art recognition tool that we run So before I start an acknowledgement of country I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land where we meet today on the unceded lands of the Gadigal of the era or Eora I play respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders past and present and extend that acknowledgement to all First Nations people here today In the spirit of reconciliation. I acknowledge the immense creative contribution first Australians made to the art and culture of this country me That's me so you can trust that this is the right speaker. I have the digital transformation manager over at the Queensland Art Gallery Gallery of Mognant I live on Bungalow land right now and that is me against the Art Gallery and Here is a picture of our art gallery This is on Karelpa points on the banks of Maywa and we can kind of see this body There's this beautiful artwork on the on the side of that which is called nightlife by Terrell, which lights up in an 80-minute slow-looking experience And I bring up physical place because it is so important to this technology digital project that I'm talking about today And I want to talk about our institution again. This solution is grounded in the requirements of my organization Our vision at Kwagoma, and I'll use Kwagoma Queensland Art Gallery Gallery of Mognant only one G We aim to be Australia's most inspiring and welcoming gallery a global leader in contemporary art of Asia Australia and Pacific I bring that up. We are contemporary art gallery We are not an art gallery of Queensland. We are a gallery of Australia Asia Pacific It is the confluence of those kind of geographic regions in the purpose of what we're trying to do is connect people with The power of art and creativity again This vision and purpose is what's driving this technology and the fact that there's a physical place where we want to experience this digital experience To me I run a program called the digital transformation project Ultimately, there's two kind of major components to it one of which is to digitize our collection When you go to an art gallery only about five at most 10% of the collection is on display 90 to 95% is behind the scenes. So what we want to do is photograph Those artworks work with the artist to take the best kind of portrayal of the work and that Convays their artistic meaning and make that available through digital channels Now we also want to improve our back of house processes so that it's easier for people to connect with the digital stories that represent this art So this is my system architecture. It's a lot of specialist applications connecting together We're not going to dwell on this But what I will point out is that and this goes from our point of sale software to our event ticketing to all kinds of things But what's important is that We're and I'll talk about the technical architecture later. There's no code in this. This is just about a Drupal solution Our Drupal solution sits here above where a lot of our content is captured We capture content and put it in our digital asset management system We study our art and we put it in the collection management system Which confusingly uses the acronym CMS collection management system But that all comes together in this Drupal site and because of this kind of decoupled architecture It's going to enable what I'm about to share So we had a bit of a problem space Which was how do we make it easier to access the art and digital content when you're on site? How do we remove barriers between? What the work in the content and how do we make art more accessible in the past with Lots of art museums have looked at solutions like putting QR codes next to works or little specialist apps Where you punch a number in and you get some content back But they're not very welcoming things like if you're intimidated by the art And you don't understand that like getting up really close and scanning a code and then visiting a website that you've really had to have engaged Kind of one of the more passive experience and then there have been things like in the museum space like beacons Which generate which push content to you, but I kind of wanted you to engage a little bit So that's where we came up with this so We're going to start with a little demo Because that's going to probably illustrate the point a bit better So now let's do a little bit of a demonstration of art seeker in action. So I've got the web app up. I activate the camera We'll get the work inside the crosshairs Take a quick photo and it pretty instantly recognizes it. Yes, this is the work will then come back and Start returning some information. We can get a bit of a description about it The color profile is really cool because what happens is It simplifies the artwork to find the five most dominant colors within that and then it searches the rest of the collection Takes a couple of seconds to find any other works that have that balance. So it's not looking for a single color It's looking for a balance of colors We ask how does this make you feel you can leave a bit of a discussion So we can thread for some resources in any materials that we have about that particular work We can just browse them here And then also we can kind of show what's nearby So if you don't want to go through the effort of scanning Again, because you know, you don't want to wait wait those 200 milliseconds You can kind of browse through everything else that's in the room and potentially look at those works and Also find some content about those So that's what we ended up developing So I'm going to go through a bit of a timeline as to how we got there back in December 2021 We took on an internship from QUT. We had a person who was working on autonomous cars And I wanted to look at the role of AI to help remove cultural bias out of image classification Reason I do that back in 2021 if you threw any kind of Asian Pacific Indigenous art at these AI image classifiers. They had no idea what was going on So if you took back to our mission contemporary art Asia Pacific Australia These things are built on out-of-copyright Western art useless. So that's why we wanted to look at how we could do that So here's a few of the experiments we ran First of all, we tried to just train some models where we kind of you know Did that kind of machine learning thing where you tag up lots of different works and it can identify things Okay, but because there's so many different Artistic style so many different nations. It really wasn't good for indigenous art. Then we looked at Asian art So here's some Japanese prints and then you'll have on the left There's a heat map of what it identified an untrained image of what was the points of focus inside that artwork And on the right was it identifying correctly more things of interest that you could search and find objects within the art Only issue is the only way we were able to validate that was because there were a lot of US Museums that have digitized their collections of Japanese prints and were able to throw lots of information at it to validate the model And that only really works because there was a lot of I guess similarities because they're prints and often we had the same prints that they did So maybe not so good Then we tried and you saw a bit of that in a demo. What about rather than just exploring by one or two colors We could look at a different way of exploring art through balances of colors one of the issues that if you're not an art historian Like me. I'm not It's very difficult to look at a work and go I know why I like that because of this kind of idea So we thought well, what about something's visually appealing to you if we can look at the balance of why that's visually appealing maybe you could search by aesthetics and that was quite promising and Then right towards the end of the project. We found this Which was if we built a model of what art looked like from different angles and then through some really bad photos at it It was very good at identifying them and that actually became the genesis of where we headed next so that was just Pretty much an internship project with a PhD student So then when that finished in July 2022, we gave ourselves a deadline of April 2023 to build a progressive web app on a shoestring So we wanted to narrow down to the right algorithm because you know Recognizing the work is using an AI model How to train that process how to scale it the UX design the kind of technical architecture and what actually makes it engaging Why we are aiming for that date is on April 2023 we launched creative generation which is where we invite the top year 12 students in Queensland to put in their artworks and It's a younger audience and there's only 32 of them So we could have like this one-to-one relationship talk about them ask them questions that they wanted to put so when they scan the work the artist could actually talk back to the public and Younger audience and on the showcase night went really well It got scanned lots and a lot of people left comments and Here excused the quality, but this was from the opening weekend So it gives you an idea from that concept of a few things how we had it going on the on the opening night So this is a quick demo of the art seeker up So the idea is that we just point the camera at work and then we can identify them so I'm in the up Well line up the work is guess as you can Find it and pretty much instantly finds the work then I can get the color information The statement I can leave a message for the artist that goes into moderation And kind of find out more about that. So that's good for a flat work So let's try that out now on something a little bit more three to go Instant so there we've gone and once we've seen a work we can then look back at history We can potentially favorite a work if we want so I'll put that in my favorites And that way I can kind of personally collect a show as I go through That was the idea to that you collect collect the works that you really loved and take it home with you rather than taking lots of photos Of labels and so on so that you had this personalized experience for when you got home So this note you already heard about you now where we are now is we did a soft pilot for A new show called small figures It was I'll go in the lessons later It wasn't the right show for it because these are these tiny things there isn't much information So you scan it you get the novelty one thing I learned in this process is when you get visitors using this up They're blown away for 20 seconds They're like wow it just instantly recognized it and then it's just standard like I should be able to do this everywhere, right? Even though it's really hot anyway So we've quietly launched this now and that works everywhere in the gallery So anyway apart from a ticketed show because copyright reasons every work in display in any of our buildings will work with this app So now I'm going to go behind the scenes was it built with well, we are here at Drupal South so it does I'll speed it up a bit Effectively we have a collection management system and digital asset management system that feeds into a Drupal 10 site That's hosted on platform Then there's an expo progressive web app, which is a react native opinionated framework You use that to take a photo of an image of a of a painting it uses it hits AWS An API endpoint that hits an inference engine that finds the most likely match to your artwork sends an ID back You go to Drupal get all that information You have your result So that that's the guts of it. I'm now going to talk about each part So Drupal 10 we have a traditional monolithic Drupal 10 site which runs our collection online. You can go visit it if you want. I highly recommend it I it's very nice. I may have made it So it is the anchor and source of truth for the whole project every day when we make changes to our collection system goes into here We have a digital asset management system when there's new images. Yeah, there's a web hook you fire that it populates the site Additionally content publishers use this site To make these things called digital stories which weave together all of the different art pieces We've got a few hundred pages of these now and that kind of creates a bit of context and rather than just the raw works We bring them in as well But more recently Additional to that monolithic site. We also have an API available that provides all of that content So on top of that monolithic website, everything's available via an API and that's what we use for the app itself So it's gone from and that is now delivering hundreds of thousands of API Lookups which affected our hosting which I'll talk about a bit later And most of them is through a content Is is through a custom module that that API we built now why we use Drupal 10 is There's lots of apps out there that galleries use that you can buy off the shelf But they all involve you copying and pasting your information putting it in that up and maintaining it And that is guaranteed to work for as long as you've got project funding So what we needed to do is build something that was sat on top of everything else We're doing so making every time a Registrar adds new information into the CMS the collection system. Sorry it updates art secret updates collection online So Drupal is the middleware it aggregates content from everyone else's existing workflows And it doesn't add anything in order to enhance everyone's workflow enhance this visitor experience Now we chose expo as our opinionated kind of react native framework It's very cool So there's two of us on the project I work part-time I've got the rest of that stack you saw earlier. So and I have um, we got drew here from guy resources shout out to guy We have I one day a month with Gaia to do my code reviews and Then Nick who you'll see very shortly in another video makes the front end and does the AI work Now this is really good I highly recommend getting if you want to do some react native stuff expose We're really fun getting into it. We had some issues with the camera library in old versions of Samsung Android that were nightmarish but apart from that. It's been pretty seamless So I'm going faster than make up time. I did have more to say but Next up is our faster AI inference engine. So this is where I get a little bit into the AI now when I say AI I'm talking about deep learning networks. I'm not talking about large language models Now during the early stage of the project We we use to some is neural network and the way to think of a some is neural network Is it's a bit like a fingerprint kind of thing you have a big database of fingerprints and then you find the closest look Issue with that is it does double look ups. So let's simplify the bigger it gets it gets exponentially slower So it was fine when we did um Creative gem where there were 32 artworks, but when we scale it to 1000 artworks The inference time was going going up to 40 seconds So and in terms of building the um the inference model that you look up against We were up to 72 GPU AWS machines in order to just build the model and sometimes they were timing out and big chat if anyone's from AWS Thank you so much for giving us the credits for that with no way. We could have afforded those machines So as it just got slower and slower, but it was really accurate So it was very hard to let get but we knew visitors weren't going to wait 40 minutes and I'm a 42nd Sorry, but here fast AI came along Which I think if you can read on the screen there fast AI making neural nets uncool again Thought when just picking up from Dries's note there about how its foundation going to fast AI was a bit like that It was kind of like very foundational solid fast, but it wasn't cool It was based in Queensland, but it is great. It was it just blew our mind away. How good this thing was To give you an idea it scales linear So and we were no longer we were now just using regular machines to build the model and it was taking an hour It wasn't taking a day. It was taking dollars to build to rebuild the um inference model It wasn't taking hundreds of dollars and we found that to make a an accurate kind of reference point We only needed six images not 60 It got very they got less confused by unusual shapes Which may not sound like much but if you take if there's a three-dimensional worker like a sculpture if you photograph it from one side There's a whole bunch of paintings on that side if you photograph it from the other whole bunch of paintings on that you need to be able to identify both and Why fast AI works really well is it takes into account the lighting and the kind of background colors So we still have the same is Neural network available to us and we can switch to it if we lack confidence in fast AI The disadvantage is about 95% accurate So it if it doesn't know it's it's it's like chat GPT it just make it just go Oh, this is good enough so you you can scan some works and it will give you the wrong result And that's why we have this card method of showing you the most Likely one and then you scan through them, but we figured 200 milliseconds versus 40 seconds. It's worth it So make almost there There's tech stack. So the last part is our AWS work. So the front end is a lambda function We have a dynamo database that holds a lot of the kind of inference training machine and Information and we use SageMaker, which is an AWS service for building AI models Every time we take more photos that we rehang a gallery so One of the issues with lambda though is it takes a little while to wake up So the first visitor in the morning was taking 30 or 40 seconds to get something So we now just have like a little service that pings it during business hours. So it stays awake still a lot cheaper than running a server and Also, I guess one really cool thing is although we still need SageMaker to build our models that we check up and get the artworks Against we can now host them on tiny little EC2 machines when we do the inference lookup So we've now just got like some EC2 smalls that are powering the API endpoint that give us the information about the art back Okay, so I went through really fast because I was making up time But one thing I really wanted to bring up was this audit app that we developed So one of the issues we had is that it was fine when there were 32 works for creative Gen, but when 50 works go on display each week Going around with our phones taking them all and then putting them into our laptop and then dragging them into an S3 Bucket and putting them in the right place and training them. It's taking all that time So Nick who you'll soon see who did the expo work built this little app here That allows us to much more quickly train our AI models And I actually think it's impressive that you can point your camera at any artwork in our galleries and get all that info back But I actually think what he built here is just as impressive So I'm now going to show how how we do how we train. So what we did is we actually built some tools to assist Us in that and I'll give you a demo of that now if I open up this internal app I can do the training by of this work by just finding it in the list So I'll just do a quick search Here it is And then I can go down and add training data So here I'll first tick this flag to take a reference image This is what we use to verify with the training data that it's the correct image And then all I do is take five images. So One from the middle and then I'll step around the artwork and just get on slightly different angles just to Give it some coverage of The different angles that people might take of this artwork And that's all we do to get the 200 millisecond response time for him So what so yeah, that's that was amazing because when we're doing 30 great But right now when we go walk through the gallery each morning and there's been a rotation by the curators We're like great take five photos and then when we've had enough rotations. We rerun the model So now we're on the other side of the pilot and we're in the soft live What are some learnings in my last couple of minutes? What's going well small agile team? I was saying to drew earlier. This is the most successful agile project I've ever worked on agile has become a little bit of a dirty word because it's like, you know fix budget Changing scope all the time, but we have I have one day a week a one day a month We've got resources to get my code done on the back end and that's all we do We do one day worth of work really compound and we release a new version of collection online on that day the rest of the time Nick is working on the site and building the front end and because of that It's we just meet once a week for 30 minutes pivot at test it and it's done So the operational overhead is tiny versus the build time Making it work within our workflows. That's so important The reason so many of these style of projects fall over is because they're additional to everyone's BA you This takes BA you and adds a visitor experience on top of it Look, how well the tech works. We didn't write the fast AI library But we get dumbfounded how well it works like Sometimes we're like going outside and it's like raining and we're taking a photo of a sculpture and the lights completely Different and or it's night and it just works and we're like you should not work off five photos But it is just amazing how well that thing works We've kept everything really agnostic I talked earlier about the API calls Because we started going headless the pantheon bill because that counts each API calls a visit was gone through the roof So we read platforms a platform pretty quickly that so being really mindful of not embedding too much In any particular kind of area was being really good and doing the kids. So I mean the young adults Was a really good pilot phase because we had this really kind of interactive audience that wanted to use it That wanted to leave voice memos that actually gave us feedback and said hey my old Android doesn't work So that was good What wasn't is that we started with cool tech, but we forgot that they were needed to be an engagement hook So we've always been catching up that the tech is actually better than the content we're delivering Content is king like there has to be a good thing that you get when you scan that So yes, it's great that we leverage our work, but we really need to pivot the way that we create work so that it's a bit better so ongoing funding I Nick is on contract and Yeah, we're running out of funding and innovation in a traditional org can be really hard We are an art gallery our sole KPIs visitation. So yes We're using digital to augment that sole KPI, but it's also very traditional org and this is a very different way of thinking about art it's not thinking about The main outcome being an exhibition brochure. I mean publication at the end that you buy this is about continually delivering content It's a very different mind shift Now I have one more video, but I'm not going to play it because I'm making up time, but I think Okay, so now we're at the end of this talk. I hope you enjoyed it We're going to demonstrate a few more. I'll just give a similar. I'll skip for this because I have a look at this one here So it gives you an idea that the 3d works Straight away as well. And that is a very asymmetrical sculpture that one and I will go forward to the next part. I'm looking at some historic photos here now I wanted to demonstrate on these in particular Because they've got similar frames. We've got similar color schemes and of a similar time and I wanted to show how well it can kind of work So let's have a look at this one So we get the idea Sorry, I had to race through that. There's a lot of work that went down I don't think we've got any time for questions. I did want to try and get a couple in if we do one or two Is there any any questions from the audience? Yeah, that's a really good questions And this is actually a wider gallery question altogether one of the few positives that came out of visitor experience in QR codes It's in Queensland. Everyone had to check in to go in So we kind of went to all this effort of training people how to use QR codes and then immediately said don't use them The the main way that we're currently doing it right now is through the floor office A lot of people have questions about the artwork. So you you talk to someone who's working there We're training them to show how they can use the app and give them the kind of materials to onboard them on how do I We're introducing way finding as well. How do I get between rooms? So our main way in is actually through physical people So when When that when the users are taking the photos, is that also feeding back into the learning as well like in terms of the accuracy of the Another very question. We we take all of the false We take the monitor when people don't correctly identify. So at the start It says is this the work and if they say yes, that means we get reinforcement learning But that particular set of training data is working well And if they say no it flags to us that we probably need to retrain that work But have you noticed an increase in terms of the accuracy of the learning models there? Like can can you track? I think you said it was like it's 95% accurate. Like is there To be honest the the usage because it's soft launched hasn't been high enough the areas where we've hard launched it have been like Nersic galleries that where the works are so different that they're Yeah, they're quite noticeable. We hope it does and we have definitely we take we take the error reports


Breaking news this afternoon for Silver Bullet Mines, how are you today, Peter Clossey? I'm happy. I'm happy. It's three years to get here and we're here, so I'm happy. Zone 1 results, where do we start? All along we've been telling people that we're going to go around the treasure room, drift along the vein to get to the target that was targeted in 1969. We did it. We put out the high grade numbers that we said we were going to put out, took a 40-ton bulk sample and processed it at our mill in less time than we thought it would take, and came out with stupendous numbers out of the concentrates. So we are very, very happy that we've been able to get this done for the shareholders, which means the next big step is full-time production. What does that mean for an investor or shareholder, a potential shareholder that's going Silver Bullet? We've seen this Peter Clossey guy around before. What does this actually mean? If you can just dumb it down a little bit for us, for someone who might be new to the Silver sector. A producing company trades as a function of its cash flow, usually. We're not in cash flow yet. We hope to be soon.  And we are promising people that we will be pouring Dorae bars in the near future, and that's a saleable product. So if we're producing and selling, one would think that would have an impact upon the stock. So of course, you sent me a video here today that you were very excited about that we're running here in the corner of your screen. Can you also explain to people out there who are going, what is that? What's going on here? Tell us what's going on. So when the old timers would pan for gold and silver, they had a pan in their hand and the pan would have rills in the bottom. And when they shake the pan, the heavier stuff falls to the bottom. The water goes out and then they pick the gold and the silver out of the pan. That shaker table is a larger version of the same concept. After the material is crushed, after it's been through the concentrators, it goes on to the shaker table. And that video, that's beautiful, is a video of the shaker table. And it is literally shaking. And that white line you see, that's silver. And that was an assate at about 340 ounces per ton. Not grams, ounces per ton, which is a little more than 11,000 grams. So that line, that little white line on the shaker table is a beautiful thing. So for shareholders who are out there, you're probably going, okay, this is very exciting. We have fire-grade silver than perhaps anticipated. Well, we went to work without a 43-101. So we internally knew what numbers we were looking for. But it was difficult for us to communicate that to the market because 43-101 gets in the way. We have stayed well within the disclosure rules. So now we can start telling people about our exciting grades. And 24 ounces of silver and a ton of rock is a very exciting grade. So what should we be looking for next? We just have these amazing results, culmination of three years. Production has started, correct? It was a 40-ton bulk sample. So if you want to call that the start of production, or we're going to take more material out of zone one, truck it to the mine and produce out of that. Production is a tricky word, depending on what you include as production. But we have a vein that runs for almost two miles. It will take us years to mine that out. And we'll get the trucks in, haul the material to our wholly owned mill seven miles away, and process the silver. All of our costs have been sunk already, right? We've rehabilitated the mine. Don't need capital for that. We've built the mill. Don't need capital for that. So almost all of the expenses going forward are operating expenses directly related to the production of the silver. Which means in theory, our cash flow should be higher as a relative portion of the revenue than another similar company that would need to sink more money into rehabilitation or building a mill. We've built it all already. Okay. So what should we as shareholders anticipate next? I mean, this sounds wonderful. Basically, depending on how you look at it, I think you've clarified that production is a tricky term, but it sounds to me like you're producing. And what happens next? Next up should be the pouring of duray bars. And that's a saleable product that can be shipped internationally. So that's our next goal. We have our own forge. We can pour our own bars. So we have all the tools we need. And that should be happening soon or imminently. Okay. Well, Peter, congratulations on your outstanding news. And for more information and updates, please go to the Silver Bullet Mines website. Thank you, Peter. Thanks for your time.


Welcome back to the Cube Silicon Angles live streaming television show We're here in San Francisco at the first node summit, and I've got with me two guys who are Really key in the node community. I've got Daniel Shaw who is runs the note-ups or Actually, what is it called? It's just note up. So note up is a podcast notep.com at note up on Twitter and the Note up live is something we organized right before node summit And we also have Chris Williams is the organizer of JSConf Which was the event that as Ryan Dahl told us earlier is the place that? node node.js basically launched and Chris also Is involved in a startup. I think it's probably the coolest startup. I've seen here. It's called. Oh, you're being too kind Thank you, though. I definitely appreciate that Aging safely. Yes, and Dan also works at Voxer, which is you know a big node.js adopter. We interviewed Matt Raimi earlier So where do you guys? Think that the node community is going I mean it's grown. It's grown incredibly Quickly, I mean is it a sustainable growth? Is it in danger of of growing too fast? It's you know, it's it we're at a real sweet spot right now where it's small close-knit and Everybody knows each other We're definitely going to be going across the threshold in the next year or so where We're bigger than the group of people that are you know, you can keep into your social group So it's gonna be a real challenge for us. We're it's something that a lot of us are thinking about and that we discussed at length at summer camp last last year we're concerned about it and doing our best to You know be inclusive and and you know make everybody feel at home in the node community Chris so I kind of have a bit of a different perspective and and by no means is that Contrarian or am I trying to be contrarian my my background is mainly from Different languages using JavaScript in different ways and the general broader JavaScript language itself. I Have a concern that I voice sometimes sometimes louder than others that the rapid growth may actually be the downfall of node as well As also the benefit You saw it a bit with rails as it rapidly grew and it became it became the monster that it actually was trying to Combat and I worry that node will just if it doesn't learn from the mistakes of previous Communities, it's doomed to repeat it We see trends in computing programming where the new shiny thing lasts for Maybe seven years and by that seventh year a new new shiny thing and in this case it's node and eventually it'll be Something else. I think that the best thing the node community could do knows you at home would be to actually look at arguments that the Scala community the Erlang community the Python community the Ruby community are making against node and instead of fighting it with oh you you're wrong Try to understand the argument embrace it figure out if there's a solution and a path that can work Or if it's just a complete troll argument and just ignore it I worry that the hype actually ends up hurting Node on both sides because there's a lot of negative hype as well as also positive hype And if we could figure out as programmers how to just be programmers and not be Rubyists or node people I think we'd all be happier and I think There's been a lot of talk here about polyglots, but seriously it's right tool right task node can't solve everything It just can't I mean I do disagree. I don't disagree. No No, I totally agree and and you know the the lessons of Brails and You know it's meteoric rise and and how it you know became a little bit too clickish, maybe You know want to try to You know avoid having that In note and that's that's it's a challenge. I mean the There's a there's a large segment of the note community that's here in San Francisco I don't know if there's someone coming from outside of San Francisco You get a sense that like all the cool kids are here and then there is that side, right? I did I so you know I moved out here at the beginning of this year because I Really was excited about programming node and I was working programming Java and I wanted to program node, you know as my as my day job and San Francisco You know a year ago was the only place that you really do it and you know make a real career out of it That's starting to change now. There there are lots of great opportunities all over the world But I very much see that there's You know it's still San Francisco centric and there's you know a lot of core that's here Well, I think that maybe it's that a lot of companies are doing it but not as public, right? Which is part of growing up It's people don't want to put out that they're using it yet because it's a is this going to succeed We don't want to necessarily be the ones out on the forefront and get cut by the razor But we want to be out at the forefront so that way when it stabilizes right there and we're kicking butt I know that I live in DC, so I'm about as far from San Francisco as I think you can get in the United States and It's a different culture. We're still dealing with large enterprise government contracts that Demand Java and so in some realms It's a different type of world, but by no means does that limit you I know just through the node jam There was at least four companies out of DC that are doing all node based programming Which is really cool to see maybe not all but hybrids of node and other languages Yeah, I there's actually an impressive percentage of companies in no jam that are not from San Francisco There's this core group of the node Community that's that's here in San Francisco, but you know as as no jam demonstrates, you know It's getting adoption all over the United States and you know I was in Italy over Christmas and you know got to go meet the guys and at the the Rome node meetup group and you know, they're they're trying their best to Bring node and explore node, you know, they're going against the grain with this You know For them, it's really really new technology, you know in here in San, Francisco, you know We've kind of accepted node and it's quote-unquote proven They're you know just trying to introduce it at their jobs and justify Using notice on their products now when you say proven proven you want to put that in like quote No, no, I prove like thumbs up even as in You know boxer has Millions of users every day that you know run on top of node, but it's not just node. It's also running on C No, P cap work. No, no, no, okay. It's no no we are node redis and React so redis and react is Erlang right so we have Different you we can't have a stack. We have a stack. We can't there's no sane way we can do a Database and you know the only insane person it is Tim Caswell Doing a database in node. I would love to I would love to Be You know purely in node with a database, but you know the right tools for the job, right? I'm I only wanted to put the air quotes on just because we're at Arguably an infancy in the language. There are things that could pop up that just because we haven't tread through the woods in these pieces Maybe it's just my cynical view, but we still find security holes all over the place in v8 Not even in node not anything that node could do but because we rely on all these different pieces I always get worried when we jump to proven so quickly and I'm not saying it might not end up being that way But I just I try to make everyone be a little bit. Yeah, I think that you know a Solid architectural way going forward. We put a lot of effort into you know making node work and like we're You know pushing so much data that we've we found you know edges in In In flaws inside of node that you don't think you wouldn't expose in an express app You know getting you know a few million hits a day, but you know if you're doing you know Massive amounts of data You all concurrently It stresses the the language and you know we found issues with buffers Inside of node that that basically would not have been exposed unless it was at that scale So I run into different sort of things. I'm trying to scale down So node won't compile on smaller chipsets. Oh, and more arguably fringe But as arm chipsets become more and more popular, it's more and more critical So that's why just to put the air quotes around proven means everywhere all the time right on proven just means We're using it right We haven't gone crazy I don't think I don't think any language closure included at this point You'd say that it's a proven language. It might be proven in some cases, but not all cases Or well skull has been around for a bit But there's some there's one of the benefits of having years underneath your belt Absolutely JavaScript the language has those years Which is a huge benefit for node But we still find things that are Education I'd like you to get back to community One thing that you know it keeps coming up when we talked about the Java the node.js community is how inclusive it is But you know it and as you said that that might become more difficult as it grows, but how do you? Accomplish that what how could another open source community? You know what what's your advice to another community to to achieve what node.js has maybe not in terms of the speed of growth But in the I Just remembering that everyone matters and they have a Their point of view is you know a solid contribution and like We're as a language in the community so young, you know Someone who's old in the community is like two years, you know, that's not that that long so you know people coming in and Approaching new things doing different things with node have new and useful perspectives that you know, we need to keep in mind and You know, we might be in some subset or some corner of know that really works for what we're working on right now But the fact that that people are doing it using it and in different ways makes the entire community richer and You know makes the language stronger and helps us find you know bugs that that what we're we've been working on that little like segment Of it that we're working on, you know, it's not necessarily gonna stress as much in the JavaScript community is It seems pretty similar Inclusive but it's been around longer. It's been growing We've had we've had like ebbs and flows. So sure you had Ajax experience during sort of the bubble and the X HR Giddy-ness and my wife and I started JSConf Four years ago and one of things that we tried to do in building JSConf was cheap things small and intimate If you actually know somebody face-to-face and have had a shared experience with them You're less likely to be like that guy's a Some nasty word or be very aggressive in a response It's there's a human as long as you remember there's a human we find that community works a lot better we've We've every year. We've tried different things and I think for any other language keeping the intimacy the the meeting every person the Connection and then also having some deeper beliefs that are just beyond programming When we do JSConf we try to make it a family event and and by that I mean you don't leave going that was a good event you leave going I made some really deep friendships here And you know I may not see them until I come to San Francisco once a year But I could call up anyone and be like hey kind of crashed your place and they'd be fine with that So we try to make it Come in together and I know other communities are doing that and it's all in sort of picking the right values I'd say and which seems weird. It seems like that shouldn't be in the tech Sphere, but it really does matter so like JSConf we run the budget to zero and whatever money We don't spend at the conference. We donate back We donated last year at the and announced it at JSConf over three thousand dollars to gender and racial diversity outreach programs and That sets the right tone for the community that we want to change the lack of gender and racial diversity But it's not something that you can just do overnight It's something that's going to take a long period of time So we want to get started changing future generations now That's something else you do that impressed me is you have the significant other track We do so that you know when you come to the the conference You're not just leaving your your spouse or your partner at home or you're not just leaving them at the hotel Either this comes from it being a husband and wife team that puts it on My wife is awesome and we came I went to a conference in Toronto It was a ruby fringe and they actually had it so I get no credit for coming up with the idea It changes the whole dynamic if you're a male or a female at a conference there's a general tendency to go out drinking and and Maybe networking a little bit too much Whereas if your spouse is there It keeps it at sort of a professional level, which is very nice and They are happy because they're doing stuff They're not cooped up in the room and it really keeps that whole family sense back in the conference And so I encourage anyone who's running a conference to do to consider doing a significant other track So it's an idea run with it. Okay? Is there anything else you'd like to say to the JavaScript community that node.js community or or about the communities So there's something you know, we're we're going to be exploring Doing the live know it up a little bit more Looking for some venues. We might do something itself by Southwest And maybe try to do something in Europe later this year if you're interested in sort of helping and doing that You know, lineup live is just us going out and sharing and talking to the community. It's not you know anything It's it's a very, you know Like a public like a public forum like town hall meetings. It's not public forum. It's you know, it's a group gathering You know something we have in San Francisco is almost every night. There's a some sort of a tech event and it's an office somewhere and You know, there's a lot of Speaking and you know what we really enjoy most is getting together and geeking out and Talking about what we're working on and sharing ideas. So, you know, that's the kind of thing that we want to share and that's one of the things we try to share with with the podcast and You know another thing with with note up if you have ideas for We've been doing deep dives. We did a deep dive on MPM. We did deep dive on database if there are topics that you want to Want us to cover? definitely, you know know that and You know send those our way look forward to exploring some of this work, right Chris If you're listening at home or watching at home Before you go posting anything on the internet Just think take two seconds think is this negative? Am I being a little bit over reaching that applies for all technology? Communities I made a big call at JS confee you this year to try to change our our mode of operation. There's a Of negative bias that permeates every single media channel and in the whole technology sphere And it's a lot of bitter infighting and it it really doesn't help anything If if somebody comes at you try to take a step back see what the problem is don't go immediately throwing back Spears and knives and don't go plus oneing on the piles that that really you know Maybe two people should just have it out not have the audience or the arena of people Cheering them on if we could do that. I think the whole technology field as as a total group could be a lot happier A lot better place Great. Well, thanks a lot guys