him? Or Max, I mean? Who's, who's Sam? Max? Sam and Max? Little rabbit? Yeah. For a second, there was like, why would you know Sam and not know Max? I don't know it. No, that's that's my rabbit from my comic books. Oh, cool. Okay. I just saw like the tiny picture on Discord. I'm like, it's Max. Oh, is that yeah, did you find it from my YouTube channel or something? The picture? The little rabbit? I guess I'm already. Oh, yeah, I figured. Yeah, I think that's my YouTube picture. I thought it was a strange head, but they were holding their hands behind their back facing outward. Do you see how I gave you guys a link to a stream that is now not the one that OBS is streaming from? OBS chose to make a new one. It's like, OK, then, like, whatever you want, OBS, just tell me, it's fine, really. I'll give you. Well, I don't know if you guys need the link, but I can give you a hit a moment. No, I'm looking at it right now. OK, I use my stream thumbnail channel.  Is that is that against the law? That's against the law against the Star Wars law. Yes, I knew it. All right. This is the one. Chat is not on the screen. Oh, my God, I have failed everyone. That's not on the screen. Yeah, not on screen right now. That's my bad. I'm sorting it. Everyone chill. But yes, but everyone gets so triggered when I'm chatting. Chat needs to be on screen. They're a character in the story. They're like, hey, that's true. They're often in memes now. There's a dog barking outside. How rude, Rags, throw him out. I don't know, Frederick. I agree. It's not a great it's not a great dog. Babe, is it? It's one of those ones. You're like, I'm sure the owner likes the name. There it is. Yeah, like I said, new new area. This is getting streamed now, because why not?  You hit OK, and it just does it. What it was doing recently was giving me what looks like an error message.   And I was like, well, yes. But today it said, are you sure you want to and what you want to name it? And what you want to put in the description?  Oh, maybe you clicked like the because it's like a just like a quick create new stream button. And that's what you clicked. I mean, that one you had problems. There isn't a less the thing. There's just it just I'm never going to get it. I'm happily going to be considered a boomer on this one. But it is working. You know, we're all here. We're a little bit zoomed in. I'm going to I'm going to zoom us down for the next one. But as long as everyone can be seen, it's fine. And it seems that chat is here. So that's good. I zoomed in. You have to unzoom chat. No, they will. They're fine. They're perfect. That's always Gil said she got a notification for this stream, but it doesn't appear on the channel. So that's that's good. You know what I mean? It's like we'll figure it out. We take the wins that we get. That's the best we can do at least now. People know there's something to look for. They can't find. Mm hmm. So I guess we're mostly good enough to just sort of slowly begin. But I was just going to say before we do that, uh, if I've got me, the wonderful site ran by Keeberkins has has a new feature that you can find in the the more section called Christmas versus Halloween. The ongoing discussion. That's probably the most important discussion that you've ever had. And since we got four people here, we're going to have to get them to put in their votes real quick. I'll go from the left to the right, at least my left to my right. Anomaly Inc. What do you prefer? What do you think is better, Christmas or Halloween? Christmas. Christmas. All right. Fair enough. It's so obvious. Glyb, what do you think is better, Christmas or Halloween? Pass. You can't pass. It's the low pass. What is that? Cheetah, I'm a Jehovah's witness for this question. No, I'm just kidding. I think that ultimately Christmas is better for culture. I know better for culture. Better for culture. Sitch Christmas or Halloween. Well, first of all, I'm Jewish, so I don't know. This question applies. Yeah, his.  Did we say did we motherfucking say that he gets a pass? No, we did not. So no, so so I guess I'm going to say, obviously, Halloween, because I don't know. Yes. There you go. That doesn't even. Finally, I'm not alone. What do you mean it's a cat? That totally counts. You can't you can't choose Halloween because you're Jewish. That's not fair. What? I'm not my debate partner is anti-Semitic, Mahler. I don't know if I can deal with this. I'm confused. Why? It was his birthday. You don't have to be. You know what, you know what? You don't have to be a Christian to choose Christmas, so it's fine.   Isn't it like the. Nope, nope, nope. Not for this game. No, no, we're going to get along well. I've heard Christmas. That is that in the Bible. That's the first commandment in the Torah. Not the Torah, I'm sorry. I've been a fan since Gamergate, so I I'm ready for this. Oh, thank you. Thank you. And Rick, what do you prefer? What do you think is better Christmas or Halloween? Halloween. Yes, yeah, excellent answers on the right. Terrible answers on the left, but, you know, it's fine. Yeah, can we switch partners? Actually, worthless.  Oh, well, I'll give you the link for both. Yeah, both of both are fine with me. Both are fine. I just think Halloween is way cooler than Christmas. Well, cool. It's not about cool. Well, better. Yeah, one of the subcategories of better would be cool, surely.  I'm not applying that metric. You don't. Well, but I'm assuming Rags Things Christmas is cooler than Halloween. Um, like, cool. I don't know. Well, it doesn't matter how you qualify better.  I'm just saying I prefer Halloween and I think it's better because it's cooler. That feels like a different question, too. That's not a different question. That's just me qualifying why I think it's better. I think this is Mahler trying to to reframe the question to try and justify his incorrect answer. Since when have I not advocated that it's the cooler one? That's what I've said since the beginning. Well, I would I would say Halloween is obviously cooler.  If you want to say that Christmas is better because it's like longer, I don't care. You can choose whatever you want. Longer, yeah, longer. Of course, you love the longer thing. No, I don't longer. Yeah, it starts November. I I force Halloween to be the whole month. I don't like that it's one day. It's racist. Oh, wow, against the undead. And believe it. Yeah, Rags is on point. You knew. More than changes, the rules bad him. Yeah, what is that, Ma? Well, if if someone said, what does it mean to be better? I'd be like, it's up to you. We're not we're not going to tell. Oh, it's cool. It's cooler. Well, you could choose what you want. Oh, and that's the reason why the OT is cooler and better than the prequel. That's right. I need you to define cooler. It is of lower temperature. How is that here? Here's the measure. How close to you is it true? No, because I celebrate Halloween in space is really cold up there. Oh, OK, fair enough. It's always a weird space. I am the debate. Oh, yeah, I was going to say that's where you can see how it's doing. We've not had it going for long, but hopefully the names will fill up. I imagine Christmas will overflow Halloween, but all of the cool kids will be in Halloween. Oh, wait, I posted it twice. Whatever, it doesn't matter. So what we're here for today is a wonderful little kind of a format change because people are like, how is it? Format change was just debate. It's like, well, because this time, this debate will not have any of the regular e-fappers in it. We will simply be moderating and possibly discussing whatever may or may not come up. We're enabling, yes. Yeah, the horrors, which means that anything bad that happens is such a fault. Yeah, yes. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Of course, we're just trying to see both the two. Yeah, you guys are platforming hate. You know that, right? User platforming hate. No, no, no, you.  That's offensive.  I didn't know Hanukkah goes on a pole. Is that how they do it? What pole? Yeah, there's like eight poles. Yeah, there's eight poles, yeah. They all have lights on them. Lights in? It's called a menorah. Jeez. Menorah? Is that like a Godzilla enemy? Probably because of the minority of people celebrate it. Ghidorah, this is menorah. Yeah, nice one. Got him. Got it. I've corrected the title as well, apparently. It was, I forgot to put the number tag in it, my bad. Either way, we got a wonderful day ahead of us because the world of EFAP has been plagued with discussion on how good the OT is and how bad the sequel trilogy is. With one trilogy floating in the ether, often not necessarily not discussed, just wondering, you have people in chat being like, oof, those prequels are shit. And then, oof, those prequels are great. And then they fight each other. And me and Rags, we don't like to see the kids fight in all the time. We're like, hey, you stop that. Unless they're orphans in which case. Yes, yes. In which case, survival of the fizz. But don't lie, we love it. And so we're at the point. And we're not talking about the Aladdin trilogy, right? No. He often neglects. Ooh. That will have to come up at another point, obviously. Everyone knows the Aladdin trilogy movie order ranking system, come on. It's always good when two of the three movies in your trilogy are straight to VHS. That's a good sign, yeah. Even though I had a trilogy. Did anything good come out straight to VHS? Aladdin 3. Oh, look at that. Is it good? Because I've never seen it. I have not seen it. Oh, it's actually good. Feels bad, man. I saw the first one. Has anyone seen the first Aladdin? I bet no one has. Wait, there was a first Aladdin? I believe you. In any film you've probably never heard of it. Starring Danny DeVito at his young age. Great. So yeah, like I said, we're dealing with whether or not the prequels are well-written. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Glybfax Simile and PSA say such, you believe that the prequels are, would I say, poorly written? Is that right? Yes. That's a nice way of saying bad and shit, but yeah. Yeah, very nice way of saying that. In fact, I'd say they're awfully written and they should have been redrafted many times. Oh my goodness. Anomaly and Rick, you guys believe the reverse, yes, that the prequels are quite well-written, if not great? Question mark? It's not great. It looks like great. I think they're mostly well-written, yes. Hmm. So, oh yeah, of course. Welcome to EFAT, by the way. Stitch has been here before, as is Glyb.  Yes, I just pop in to debate. But, I'm ready. Well, yes, there you go. Welcome to EFAT 84, I believe. But of course, the first time for both Rick and Anomaly, Inc., how are you guys doing? Sorry for not giving you an intro immediately. God, lost him, that one. Say whatever you want. It's fine, it's great to be here. I've watched you guys for a long time. It's finally nice to meet you guys and that's pretty cool. Sorry, it's kind of weird just being on chat with you guys or just getting used to it. Yeah, no problem. Yeah, thanks for having me on, I appreciate it very much. No problemo, whenever prequel decisions come up, your name is usually attached to it. So you're like, well, if we're gonna do a prequel debate, we're gonna have to bring you in. And of course, Rick, I don't know if you have any idea what EFAT is, but welcome. Barely, maybe sort of a little bit of an idea. So I'm happy to be here, thanks for having me. No problem, yeah, so there you go. That's the people, this is the episode. They're splitting into twos and they're gonna be talking about the prequels and I believe the idea is that me and Rags might do a bit of direction here and there. Might ask a few questions as you do. But yeah, main intention is to let everything free flow. We're not doing the whole, you know, you get a 30 minute intro and then a 30 minute response and then five minute rebuttal thing because we kind of thought, you know.   Yes.  Of the homosexualoid, but the thing with the 30 minute thing is like, which point do you respond to? There's gonna be a few of them. Right, right. While obviously, so yeah, it's probably worth staying because these are things that come up in pretty much any debate. Try and avoid doing like a bazillion points and then have the person respond to multiple choice ones but then simultaneously, not all interruptions will be a bad thing, right? The idea that you're running off into a direction with the other person's like, no, no, no, don't go that way. I already know where that way goes. That sort of thing. Simultaneously, you know, it's fair to be relatively charged in whatever you wanna discuss and so if there's any kind of crossover or, you know, perceived foul play, I'm sure we'll be just fine. I imagine that this can run. Foul play.   No offense. Oh yes. So. What are your sith tricks on this debate? We figure that from there, everything can basically just run. What else is there to say, Rags? What you reckon? Hmm, I think that sort of covers it for now. I assume everyone kinda understands our extremely rigid, very easy to understand format. Do you guys wanna go with the rule here? Chad wants to have a poll to see if we've changed anybody's minds. Oh, like a pre and post poll, I guess? That's a good idea. All right, I'll get one set up then. What should it be entitled? Are the prequels well written? Should that be it? Yeah, that's what the debate is, right? Pretty much. Are the prequels well written is what I was prepared for. That's what the line that you gave me and that's what I'm prepared to argue because I think that I had, I could have more to say if it was the whole film, technically. So this is gonna be interesting because that's mostly what I think about. This actually made me think about the writing and the prequels and it was so hard for me. I had to watch, it took me three tries to watch Attack of the Clones all the way through for this. Wow. Oh, the fact you were thinking about the writing means you did more than most speaking about them. Okay, that much. That's true, no, it's true because it's so glaringly bad as a visual. It's a visual. Yeah, it's just a visual story. It's horrible to look at if you're trying to look for a Star Wars aesthetic. All right, wait, so I'm gonna, I'll make three options. They are well written, they are not and undecided for those who aren't sure. So I'll put first poll.  You gotta get your vote in there. Otherwise, how are we gonna know how the room feels about this whole thing? I'm very curious. What's predictions? What do you guys reckon it's gonna look like? Anyone? I don't know. Probably on the boomer. Sorry. Dude, why isn't it? I thought last, or not last week, whenever I was on here a couple of weeks ago, I thought that most people thought the prequels were bad, but apparently I was mistaken and I'm an old man boomer. Yeah, that's right, Sitch. We have to destroy the nostalgia that all of the Zoomers are for Star Wars.  All right. Oh, this is kind of interesting. We're looking at a... I just, before we start, I just wanna go on.  Okay, I'm sorry. Oh, I just wanted to say that I wanted to give a shout out to everybody at Smudcast and especially Ryan at RK Outpost who got his channel hit a couple of times with the copyright strikes. Everybody try and go support them and then thank you, Jeremy, for coming on and having that debate. I just wanted to give them a shout out for that. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I'm relatively out of the loop with the whole loss of his stuff, but I know a lot of channels have been suffering to a degree with them. What did a critical drinker call them? Misbehaving canine or something? Wait, wait, I think I'm so out of the loop with this. No, it's a naughty dog, I've been... Oh, sorry, Mark. No, no, you can get, you probably know more than I do. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm one of the people got struck down. So yeah, basically, a naughty dog, well, a disgruntled dev at Naughty Dog leaked the spoilers for the new gamers coming out. Oh. Mm-hmm. So, Sony and Naughty Dog went on damage control and people who were posting or speaking about the leaks got the party flagged down. And then Jeremy, they took it one step further and just people who were speaking about it, just from a commentary standpoint, without even pulling anything, they stopped Jeremy's stream. Geeks and gamers, they stopped a call down to talking about it. It's crazy. Yeah, it's pretty gone, pretty haywire with it. Yeah, I mean, that's a, honestly, a real shame and they should know better.  And they're like, what's that? There's like, why doesn't everybody know this by now? All you do is create more carnage and then you get people like me who are like, sorry, what's going on? What is this? And they go, oh, they'd be in pricks. Why are they being pricks?  Yeah.  Yeah, I just wanted to point out about the prequel sequel thing that just because we're having this debate about the prequels, that doesn't have any opinion effect on the sequel. The six of us agree, the sequels are all fucked. We'll be fine. I don't want that to influence people. But what do you mean by that specifically? What I'm saying is that I don't think automatically because I'm going to be hating on the prequels, liking the original trilogy more. That perspective has nothing to do with the sequels. So I don't want people that are prequels fans to think that I like the sequels more than the prequels. That's what I'm saying. Oh, I gotcha. Okay. I don't want it to sitch. You do like the sequels more than the prequels, though, don't you? I don't. Just because I'm shitting on the prequels doesn't mean that the sequels are better than me. No, he said sitch. He said sitch. Yeah, sitch, yeah. Well, it's interesting because now that I've watched the prequels again, it's so hard because they're both really bad, but in very different ways. That's actually what you want to say. Well, no, I don't know what I want to say because I think Rise of Skywalker, at least Rise of Skywalker, which is the freshest sequel in my mind, it is definitely more incoherent and riddled with plot holes than any of the prequel movies are. But the cinematography in acting is better and that goes a long way. So I think I'll stick by what I said before, which is that the sequels are probably worse written or just as badly written, but they're better acted and shot. Well, that'll be it. I was going to say, we'll want to try and get you guys talking before we reach any sort of conclutory statements, even if it's just about the samples or whatever. But yeah, it looks as if the prequels are actually winning overall with the audience. The 319, believe it is, they are well written. 255, believe they are not, and you got 165 people undecided. There's an audience to fight for today, people. An audience to fight for.  I figured it'd be a larger landslide towards the prequels than down the middle. Oh, yeah, well, exciting. Between me and Sitch, we have 19 pages of notes on how this movie is bad. So we are ready to go. Well, no, that was just for the first one. That was just for, oh, sorry. That was just for the Phantom Menace. Oh, Jesus. Multiply that by three.  Just saying, just, just, you know. You have to be able to make all these points in 10 hours. But let's put it this way. We have a Mahler's video, a Mahler's video trilogy is worth of points. We ran out of time discussing Mandalorian. Okay, it can happen. We ran out. Let's, well, then look at whatever happens to happen. It's fine. We could do a part two. How about that? Anyway, that's right. I suppose all I'm going to do is ask a question and then it's up to the four of you.  Oh yeah, of course. I was going to say that we will do a second poll once this debate is over and we'll see how the audience has changed. Though the audience will have changed by then anyway, like they will have swapped out, I think at that point. Right. So it's only, you know, not 100%. But if you have... It's not a scientific poll, okay.  But you can see that a piece of artwork was created just for this. It's quite wonderful. Got old Stratomire getting himself in there with a wonderful drawing. So I'm going to leave that up. And then, like I said, I'm going to ask a question and then we will leave you to it other than interjections here and there. So, out of the four of you, you're welcome anyone to answer this. Are the prequels well written? No! That's it, you want to start? Okay, so the way I think the easy way to tackle this is in the way that I wrote my notes, is it's basically just in order of events that happen in the movie. It's figured it'd be easy to just go point by point. Let's do it. Okay, so first point, according to the title crawl, the conflict, this is in the Phantom Menace, the conflict of the entire movie is centered around the taxation of trade routes. And yet, at no point in the movie, is it ever explained what that means? Who's taxing who? Why would the Naboo, the trade federation owe each other taxes? Aren't they both part of the Republic? It's sort of amazing to me when the central conflict of the movie is never explained and is simply hand waved away in some vague opening title. And what is it that's special about Naboo? What do they produce that makes them the focal point of this trade dispute? Why are they relevant to the overall galaxy? And if they are relevant, if they are relevant, then what is it exactly that is keeping the Senate from making this a big issue? Well, isn't it, I mean, 90% of the complaining I hear is people saying that there's too much politics and it's bogged down and they talk too much about it and then they over explain the politics.  I mean, that's a good point. We just pointed out exactly what we want. Why is that not a movie? Well, I want to just your politics point because I think it's a good point is that I think there's a misconception with people. It's not that politics is inherently bad. There's TV shows about politics like West Wing and Game of Thrones is like entirely almost about kingdom politics and factions warring each other. The problem with the politics in Star Wars is that none of it's ever explained. So people have no context to understand what the fuck's going on and that's what makes it boring. It's not that politics themselves are inherently boring. Well, is it boring or is it confusing? It's both boring and confusing. You could say that boring is subjective but confusing means incoherent logic, which is true because we just pointed out a bunch of questions that we have and your answer was not an explanation of it. It was a question as to why we want it. Well, no, what Rick is saying, the reason why I started with that is because the majority of, it's not a misconception, the majority of arguments I do see in videos online that I respond to are it really just comes down to politics bad, like I mean to like straw man that will paint the opposition, it's just what I see. But to further elaborate on what you said, so why isn't that really the target? Let's start with that. Firstly, Oh, by the way, hold on a second. Before you say anything, we have to point out to chat. One of the stipulations we agreed on is there's no external explanations. You can't go to the EU, you can't go to the to Wikipedia and you can't go to something that's in the novelization. Well, you could, that's part of the rules. Yeah, that was part of the rules. You could technically bring up the EU, but it doesn't really help your argument because that means that you're pointing out a plot hole. I would clarify. What made you think I was gonna go? It all has to be in the films. What made you think I was gonna go for the EU? Sorry, I'm not saying that you are. I'm just pointing it out to chat so that they don't have superfluous arguments. So to clarify, right, if you're asking for an explanation for something in the film that relates to the progression of the stakes in the film, then you can't go third party. However, if for some reason, the message was like, who's that guy in the background with the weird hat?  You can mention it.  It's not an excuse. No, I am. I'm not gonna allow that.  I'm not gonna allow you to go to an external source to explain how the movie's good. This is about if the movie is well-written, not if Star Wars is well-written after the film. That was the point of what I was saying, is that you wouldn't be able to use it to explain something that should necessarily be in the movie. But that guy in the background with the hat, who cares? You can't, you can't be like, why do you need to know who that guy is, Sitch? As opposed, or you could be like, oh, well, he does have a story actually, but it's in this whole other thing. But yeah, continue. All right, let's continue. Yeah, well, the reason that Naboo was targeted specifically is because it's Palpatine's home planet. He's using his home planet to exploit a loophole in the Republic. So I'll admit a small sort of hiccup with the way the story starts is shaky for me, and I'll play the other side of the fence for a moment, is what exactly did Palpatine promise the trade federation? We can say he promised them money or sort of reward and all, but the story is he made a bargain with the trade federation. Trade federation, you want your money? I'm gonna sort things out in the Senate. You need to go to the Senate, you need to block off Naboo and all sort things out in the Senate. And then eventually Naboo will cave and give you a demand. He was, what happened, Rick? Well, I mean, you're asking what you need to know to understand this story. What you need to know to understand this story is he's trying to create an armed conflict there, which will lead to a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Valoran. I mean, like the details of the plot, like who's paying, who, what, it's not really, that's not relevant. It's, you know, I mean, it's like when you watch episode four originally and Tarkin's talking about the governors of the regional systems having direct control over their bureaucracy. And I mean, you don't know what any of that means, but you understand that the point is that if the empire takes control with the Death Star, that's bad.  You know, I mean, all the Star Wars movies are designed that way.  I mean, there are explanations to all that the type of minutiae if you really want it, but it's never something that is required to follow the story of the character. I know I don't want you to tell me what's required. I want you to answer the question that's forwarded or admit that it's not in the movie. Well, wait a minute, wait a minute, before we pray to do that. I think bring up episode four, The New Hope is a good point because it's the exact opposite of episode one. In episode four, everything is very clearly explained. You have the empire, their motivation, their fascist dictatorship, and they wanna control everything. What's at stake?  And Phantom Menace, we don't have any of that. The problem, it's not a question of minutiae. If people don't understand what the motivations or the characters or what the story is about, this is the central conflict of the story. If you don't understand what's going on, then we can't feel emotionally invested in the story or care about what's going on. There's no tension, if there's no conflict that we can understand. Well, I think another music that we have is that the whole plot revolves around the trade duration. And that's like, that's the spark to sort of get the story going, but it actually isn't about that. It's about the finding of Anakin and Queen Amidala's flights. Wait, wait, wait, wait, that's what it's about to the audience. What about inside the universe? The entire conflict in the Senate, which is the center political operation center that's driving this plot that Palatine has? Yeah, it's bogged down in Nusha. Nothing's getting done. Okay, well, wait, the blockade first of all, blockade is legal, I need to talk about specifically. Blockade is legal, they're just simply protesting they want more money for, okay, this is the trade federation. It's a peaceful protest, but it's like ethical, if that makes sense. Like they shouldn't be doing it, but they can, the legality thing. And so that's why the Republic's debating. The Republic's debating, the blockade removes the trade, can regime to the poo. I think it was getting done. So then chance for a pound. This isn't a title crawl, by the way.   Oh, yeah. Why did he send them in secret? It has to be sanctioned. Okay, it has to be sanctioned to Jedi too. It's never explained. Where's that saying in the move? Yeah, in the title crawl, talking about it. It doesn't say that Jedi had to be sanctioned, it just says he sends them a secret. He sends them a secret. They're probably not privy to this. It wasn't privy to this. But why? I mean, why? Why were they sent in secret? As opposed to being sent? I mean, I thought, this is kind of skipping ahead, but I thought the whole point of Jedi was that they were supposed to deal with disputes, interplanetary disputes. I thought that was the entire point of Jedi. So why would- Is this not an interplanetary dispute though? And again, the blockade is legal. They're not doing anything wrong. Okay, wait a minute. We're trying to settle it. What are you talking about? It's the trade federation versus the boo. I don't- Okay, so how is it that a blockade of trade is legal? How does that work? Well, wait a minute. Can we- I know we're giving points, but you- We're trying to jump ahead, but we're trying to jump ahead because there's something that's super important that hasn't really, that I need to address, which is the question is why is it important to understand the trade federation's motivation and why it's not minutia? And the answer to that is because what happens if Queen Amidala signs the treaty that makes invasion legal? Right. What's the consequences of that? No, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. They never say that. But wait a minute. This is really important. We don't understand- We haven't reached that point yet. We will get to that. No, hold on. We need to get to that point. We're there in the beginning of the story and the set up of the movie. We're still in space. We haven't gone dancing a boo yet. Okay, but wait a minute. But the question was why do we need to understand what the trade federation is, what the motivation is and all this stuff is because we don't understand what's at stake. So when the central conflict is Queen Amidala, you have to sign the treaty to make it legal for our invasion to be legal. What happens if she signs it? Does that mean that the trade federation, that they have to pay the trade federation taxes? Does it mean that the trade federation enslaves their planet? Does that mean that Newt Gunray is gonna marry Queen Amidala? We don't know and the movie never tells us. So what I mean- And I still don't know what trade is. An emotional connection. We don't have an emotional connection of worrying what happens if our heroes fail. So there's no tension in the movie if we don't know what happens when our heroes fail. Well, yeah, we do. If she signs the treaty, it makes their occupation legal. It makes the invasion legal. But the blockchain is legal. So what is illegal? What is that for the planet? They send down their ships and their robots and they occupy the planet. They take over the planet. They take over the government of the planet. They run the planet like they're trying to do at the end of the movie. When they take over, they depose her and the Newt Gunray's in her throne room and the droids are running the city and that's what they're trying to do. She's trying to keep them in silence. They want their transformation legal. And they're making whatever they want. Who knows what they want in the end of the day. So how do I... She's trying to maintain control of her government. So why, first of all, none of this is ever talked about in the movie, whatsoever, about why they want Naboo or even if they do want Naboo. All we know is this is about taxation. Let me stop you right there. Let me stop right there. There's a reason why. You should ask yourself why they're attacking Naboo specifically, right? You said that, right? They could attack, right? They could attack any planet.  So why Naboo? I don't know. I know Palpatine. I know why Palpatine wants them to attack Naboo. I don't know why they want to attack Naboo. Actually, the invasion didn't... The trade federation didn't even want to invade. Remember, Palpatine insisted they invade. It's like, my lord, is that legal? Sidious said that. I will make it legal. Sidious told them they'd do that. So why would they deal with Sidious? What were they going to get out of the deal with Sidious? Because he's made a bargain with them, he's insuring. Just do what I say and you'll get what you want. To get what? I guess, the trade disputes are... You guess, so it's not in the movie. I guess, it's what happens in the movie. If it happens in the movie, then tell me what it is that they want. Taxes say that you don't know. Trade federation are protesting the taxes on the trade routes. They want either less money or more money, whatever, on their end.  I get what the whole bargain with Palpatine is, what? So you don't know, you're saying it's this or this, I don't know. Why can't we have a point that you don't? What are you talking about? You don't know what they want. Just admit that you don't know what the trade federation wants. The trade federation wants money. They enforce taxation. Where is that in the movie? That's what they're doing. It's about taxation of trade federation routes. That's what they want. So how does that go into their deal with Sidious? What do you mean? How does it go into their deal? What are they getting out of their deal with Sidious? Money, they're trying to make money. He's telling them that if they go and they occupy this planet, if they occupy the planet, then they can control how it's taxed. And what does Naboo produce? No, that's ever explained in the movie. And what is the trade route? It's not in the movie. I don't. We don't know the resources that are being traded. We don't know where they're going. We don't know Naboo's role in that trade or if they can do something. Can I stop you out of that? And when let me just give you an example from a new hope. All right, we were told in the title for all right that the empire is the evil empire. Right. Sure. Why was the empire evil? Now we want to take over the republic. I know what you're going to say because they want to take over the republic. No, no, I'm talking about new hope is just with me. Yeah, because because they want to kill the rebellion. But why is there? Why is there? Why is the empire able? We don't know why the Pemper Palpatine is evil. That's what you're asking. Yes, we don't know exactly why the empire evil. You know, hope without without empire. Because they want to control all the planets without giving them freedom. They want the regional governors to be governors to be in control and the regional governors are all owned by the empire. So we know the empire is not beneficial to the galaxy. Are you saying the empire is a good? Are you pro-empire?  No, but then why is it good? So why is authoritarianism good? It's bad just because it's called the empire. That's how you mean it in the language. OK, so you agree with the empires. Do you agree with any of the empire's methods of being moral? We see the empire being extremists and we do need to learn that they need to be toppled, but we don't see why there's a rebellion to begin with. Oh, so they're extremists and they need to be toppled.   Why don't you get a watch and just a Googlebot? Is there not saying, what are the trade federation want with Palpatine, what currency, what are their, you know. Yeah, because they're not just straight. They don't want to control everything. I admit that's hairy, right? Bottom line, they want money. This is again, this is this is a question I would like to I would like to point out in the title crawl of A New Hope, the Death Star is explicitly mentioned. Yeah, this is a this is a question of stakes and a new hope. The stakes are very clear.   It's like, OK, they already invade the they already take over in a boot like right in the beginning of the movie. It's like, what does that mean? The question seems to be, you've got a whole a whole solar system, well, a whole galaxy.  And the question a lot of people tend to provide is why should anyone care about this? So the answer, I think, Glyb and such are looking for is, well, who are the people involved and why is it that one is bad, one is good and who should we root for? And all we know is the Jedi are going to go do something about it. Well, I was just going to say that there needs to be there needs to be there needs to be physical stakes that the audience understands. They say, OK, you know, the empire is bad. They're killing people. They're blowing up planets. You look at the trade federation, it's like, OK, I think the trade federation is bad. They're invading a planet. They invade the planet and then what happens? Well, they just kind of wait around and say sign a treaty. And it's like, what happens? She signs a treaty. I don't know. The movie tells us that the movie does say if you want her to sign it because it'll make them vision legal, that's what that means. How does that mean? There's a lot of implications. But look, again, it was a peaceful protest in the end, but what are they just going to take some money and leave? Like, what does it mean? The invasion is legal. I don't know what that means. We're occupying the planet. The occupation is so they're saying in the movie we're occupying a planet, no implication for it. They don't say they never say in the movie if you sign this treaty, the trade federation will now control Naboo forever and you will all be enslaved to them. That's never talked about or brought up in the movie. They don't say forever. They show them taking over the planet. They show them taking over the Queen's throne room and moving into her palace and taking over the government. They send the message that the people are in camps and the people are dying. They show them all the way. They show them landing or some Naboo commanders. And the battle droids are marching up to clear Naboo's citizens off into camps. And I don't know if you need us with the empire. All you need is that somebody said they're evil. We see the trade federation doing a hundred things on Naboo. No, we don't. We don't want to have both Jedi. We're specifically told by both Jedi that the whole thing about them killing the Naboo is not true and is baked. So that's not an argument. Well, I'm talking about the scenes where you see the battle droids rounding up the citizens on Naboo and marching off. And the capital city putting people in camps, yes. Yeah, you see that. We don't see them. Where do we see that? Where do we see the camp? I don't know. Show me the scene where we see the camp. I don't remember that. What I remember is... You see the surrounding people. I'm not taking it off. How many scenes do you see? You say, take them to camp for. And then, so let me... You mean a shot at the camp? The shot is getting at me a lot. Let's put an emotion and conflict and tension to the story. If we actually see the Naboo people suffering, we actually see the droids doing something. Like we see...  You need these scenes to establish conflict and emotion in the story. You need scenes of random citizens on Naboo that are the stories not about to have conflict. Yeah, you need scenes of conflict and emotion in the story. I don't understand. I don't... I can't deal with that kind of argumentation because you can't argue for what the audience wants or needs. You need to argue what's in the movie, okay? Because you have different standards. So what do you have to say what the audience wants or needs?  I'm not saying what happens. The logic and coherency of presenting things, show, don't tell in a movie still stands. We need to be able to see things to understand that they're actually happening. If you just say that they're happening... How many people did you see on the way to the Federation? Yeah, city, start rounding up, people in groups. But we see them all the time. That can be an implication for a lot of things, right? The Jedi need to rescue the Queen, bottom line. They rescue her before they even get to one of those goddamn camps. It doesn't matter. That's part of the problem. So this is the problem because convincing the Senate that something is happening is part of the plot. You're telling me that this futuristic environment that has holograms can't show that their people are dying to the Senate, which is then necessary to convey to the audience to understand the stakes. Because they jammed the transmissions from the planet. That's the whole first part of the movie. They stopped all the transmissions from the planet, but they couldn't show to Sidious what was happening. They couldn't show to Palpatine what was happening. They couldn't let out a transmission. And by the way, the blockade was the issue. The blockade was legal. Oh, and how is it that a blockade can be legal in a republic? How does that work? It's a peaceful protest. Say, we want more money and we're cutting off trade. OK, so let me get this straight. The blockade is the opposite of a peaceful protest. So the trade federation, are they part of the republic in the movie? Yes. Yes. There aren't separate like other parts, but I have the right to represent it in the public. And what reality do allies blockade each other? Not even allies. You have different entities part of the same federal government. So this would be like a state of living blockading the state of Alabama. It makes their living by doing trade, right? The trade federation is pretty self-explanatory, right? Now, they live in the same republic. They still got to trade with other plants and stuff. Yeah, and you can have, you know, factions within a unified faction fighting with each other in different ways that always happens in smaller ways, like it's possible. If you're a citizen of the IRS, you put a lien on your bank account. That's the IRS is part of your government and they can still put a lien on your bank account. That's what the trade federation is. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That would be like the republic intervening because they're the federal government in the movie. It wouldn't be like individual states warring with each other. The trade federation is in a state. It's an organization that enforces. They're part of the republic, aren't they? They have a senator in the republic. They're a representative in the republic, yes. So, so they're part of the republic, just like Naboo. They're an organization that enforces financial things. They're the planet is Cato Neumodia. The organization is the trade federation. Right. So are you saying that the trade federation and the planet are two different entities that have two different motivations in the republic and none of this is ever explained in the movie? Well, yeah, the trade federation is the trade federation. It's not a planet. It's a trade federation. It's a planet.  Is that what you're saying? Well, it's like the IRS. It's an organization. You know, it's a kind of organization. So, so because it's a separate organization, it's somehow OK for them to blockade another republic planet that's within the same ultimate meta large federal government. They're an authority to enforce tax laws. Wait, what's the whole thing? And what you asked is that OK, well, that's what the whole Senate is debating and bogged down in. Is this should this be legal? Should we we need to get, you know, that's that's why they can't settle on attacking anyone yet. They just OK. So what did where in the movie? Does it say that Naboo did anything that requires the trade federation to be there? It says it's a trade federation. I don't think it's a trade federation and it's because of Palpatine because it's his home planet.  I understand. I understand that Palpatine. Look, I don't understand why you guys can't understand that this is a functioning universe. You guys are trying to present. You can't come up with a narrative plot based idea. Oh, it's part of Palpatine's plan. That's his storyline plot before, but the actual universe has to be explained to the audience for stakes to exist. If you have a non-functional universe, we have all these things that are not explained. How are we supposed to follow along with exactly what the stakes of the plot are? The stakes of the plot are what we already said, like five times that the trade federation wants money. They're going to blockade the planet. That's it. Just like you can say, you know, that's it. Stitch and I have been trying to establish for a long time. This is why I'm hotheaded because you guys keep confusing things that are in the movie and things that are not in the movie. You said that the trade federation wants money. That's not in the movie. You don't know what they want. Show me the line where the trade route is being taxed. The trade route to outlawing star systems. That's what it says in the crawl. OK, so how does that mean anything to do with that? Maybe it's that star system. They're just feeding the trade there. OK, they're disputing which trade route over what? Trade federation taxes. What do you talk about which trade route over what? You can think it's spend 50 years talking about. I don't understand what level of like financial if you need to understand if it's being taxed. If we can take just just just a second. I've answered you 25 times. All right, so the clarification. I'll just check it out. Just checking out the script. Have it on hand, just in case. So when when Newt Gunray first talks to Darth Sidious in the movie, Sidious says, I have the Senate bogged down in procedures, which is probably referencing what what his name does. What Palpatine does when he says like, this is the bureaucracy is the red tape. And he says, by the time this incident comes to a vote, they'll have no choice but to accept your control of the system. So I think by signing the treaty, it gives them control over Naboo. And that's what they want. So they're using the blockades as a sort of like a way to get to where they want to be. And then they can land all of their troops without it being an obvious immediate invasion, I imagine. I don't know if that helps move this conversation. I'm not sure is the question here, essentially, why one member of the Republic is even able to legally blockade another member? I would I would say I don't have anything for that information wise. They simply say it's legal. I'm not even sure what they're blockading exactly. Is it simply trade routes as in like no one can get in and out of the planet, which surely seems illegal to me. I wouldn't know. Well, the point is that what Palpatine wants Palpatine. Palpatine wants them to do something illegal. The whole thing Palpatine is trying to do is get a vote of no count, no confidence and chancellor of Lauren. So Palpatine is trying to do something that's crossing the line. He wants them to do something. That's why they said, my lord, is that legal because they know it's crossing the line. Palpatine is pushing them to do something wrong. Because that's going to get people to be upset with Lauren. Yeah, he's he's pushing him into a position where he could act, but he's going to do it the bureaucratic way. And that's going to make Padme so annoyed with him that she'll suggest through manipulation from Palpatine, a vote of no confidence. That makes sense is what I was actually going to say. The part that I think everyone's still confused on is what the blockade is doing specifically and how could it be considered legal? I understand what Palpatine wants. We don't understand what the trade fed is never meant to make it to a cause and once she gets there, that's his plan. More on your right. Like, absolutely. That's what that's what he rolls with. But yeah, that's fair to make it there. That's why I sense that more often, obviously, but I'll get to that. What I was trying to say is like in regards to why Palpatine wants to do this again, his planet, he knows how it works. He has a close relationship with the Queen and the government there. He even says to the trade federation like word for word, Queen Amidala is young and naive. You will find controlling her to be whatever it is difficult or not difficult. That's what he says, right? So and then when Qui-Gon is down there and he's trying to be right, when he says that. What? Is he being honest or lying when he says that line about the Queen being young and naive? Um, just wanted to clarify, like some people in chat are saying the blockade is not legal and that they say they know nothing about it in the Senate in the when the beginning of the film, he describes the blockade as perfectly legal to the the captain's arriving. They claim they don't know anything about the invasion. Yeah, it's the invade. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I just want to pass judgment on the entire republic because they have a retarded system. And I understand that that's the point that is trying to be made by the movie. But it severely lowers my ability to sympathize with any of the Jedi or Republic ideals. They don't have an army. They don't have an army to back up this enforcement. If the if the Trade Federation actually did invade Naboo and they did get evidence, what would the what would the Republic do? Sensor the Trade Federation? What's their let's kind of the entire movie is the Senate is the Republic's old and complacent and their system doesn't work anymore. Yeah.  Yeah. Why should we care if the Senate is replaced by the Empire? Yeah, why should we care if the system in the Empire? But something else and you're not really establishing good stakes for your characters to be emotionally invested in for the audience. Or just at the beginning, we haven't gone to the characters yet. This is just a basic opening. So so we're still on. We don't understand what the Trade Federation wants from Palpatine. We don't understand what they want from Naboo. We don't understand anything motivated them. We don't know who's taxing who or what. And this is the Trade Federation. The Trade Federation doesn't write anything from Palpatine. They're doing a lot of that. Right. They want something from Sidious, which is unknown because we haven't established it yet and you just construe his money, which isn't in the movie, which is why it gets me angry. Because I told you I want actual evidence from the movie. I don't want you to write the movie for your movie. The call also mentions them as the greedy Trade Federation. So they must be the ones in the tax laws and wanting more. How? So then a question, how does the Trade Federation tax a planet when they're both part of the same federal government? Because they're working. They facilitate the trade from planets around the Republic. They could have. Again, they could have done this. Where is that written in the movie? It's in the name of the cutting organization. It is. They deal with the truth. They deal with trade and taxes. That's it. I don't know how much I'm going to hit against the brick wall. The World Trade Organization does not dictate what trades America makes. Just because they're called the World Trade Organization doesn't mean they control all World Trade. So there are members of the whole trade. They are a faction that controls trade.  The tax is not the number. So is the question here that it's that it's not clear enough in the film that the Trade Federation is able to do what they're doing in a legal sense?  We don't understand what the Republic, the set of governments is. We don't understand what the stakes are. And as Anomaly knows, because I saw this from one of his videos, there's an interview with George Lucas, where he admits that he doesn't know why the Trade Federation is blocking Naboo and he doesn't care. So this is just a clear example of a video. I know what he says in the interview. This we says in the interview. I'm always I'm always I remember we saw that. Yeah, I remember what he's saying. I says, why are they blockading Naboo? He says, whatever. I don't know. It doesn't matter.  By the way, I even I even mocks him. He says, oh, yeah, it's only like a hundred million dollar movie. Why does it matter? There is the only thing I can think of. And again, this could be a lack of information is the third film just before Gunray gets killed. He says Lord City has promised us peace. I don't know if that's related for the three films or just revenge of the Sith. But the idea of before he's by that point. Well, of course, that was I assume that was the plan that would have been from the get-go is to secede from the Republic planning after eight 10 years earlier. No, this is this is what I'm getting at. I'm like, I don't know what else we have to work with. I don't think that the the gun rays motivation is clear. It seems to be fear pretty much certain points in Phantom Menace. I mean, I mean, I would just like to I would like to point out that line doesn't really make any sense if they started the war. It's actually funny that you brought that line because it's almost like George Lucas is trolling the audience because in revenge of the Sith, you first of all, and Cohen was revenge of the Sith, you never find out again.  It's motivated them whatsoever. What the sticks, you don't find any of this stuff out. And finally, at the end, you revenge the Sith. When Anakin's right about to kill Newt Gunray, he says, City has promised us peace. He promised us. And you're like about to find out whatever he promised him. And then Anakin kills them. Literally, Anakin kills Newt Gunray right before you find out what motivated his character the whole time. Look, and I want to point out, yeah, yeah, sure. We're we're not we're not we're not we're not taking. Let's let's say that this point is invalid before this court, since it's not in the rules, what George Lucas said. Let's let's not use that point. We still don't. It still doesn't take away from our initial argument, which is that we don't know any of the stakes. We don't know what happens. We don't know what the Trade Federation consists of. I'm willing to be able to trade routes. And then by the way, by the way, the first the hold on the initial counterpoint was that it wasn't really important, but it is important. No, I said that there I said there was an open draft. That was never my initial counterpoint. Oh, well, then explain explain it then. What I said wasn't important is you're talking about like all the details of who's taxing who and how much money and who gets what from who. And that's not important. What's important is that they're blockating the planet. It's going to be bad for the people are going to take over the planet. That's the stakes. But they're going to be bad for the people in part. We don't see the negative effect. Is that good for people? Guys, why does it matter? Why does it matter how Palpatine created an army of a billion stars for us? He just created them. They're just there. That's just the conflict of the movie. Don't ask questions. It doesn't matter. Right. Exactly. Details don't matter. How did Luke's lightsaber get there? It doesn't matter. It fell off Bespin. It's a detail. Glybsus, would you be willing to say? That's a false equivalence. That's false equivalence. That's a staple for me. This is a prequel. This is the start of the story. There's no fucking, I'm in the comments before it. This is a blank slate. It's a blank slate, and that means you shouldn't explain it. Would you be willing to accept that it's an inference that they're doing it for money from the title Greedy Trade Federation? Sure. Sure. Let's move on to the next point if you want to. I was going to consider points, just a small point, that the bargain itself is a little hairy.  We have to know every little detail. So here's the problem. All the pieces are there. The entire plot is about politics from the perspective of Queen Amidala, who's one of the main characters. So the reason why I'm such a stickler for this point is because we're going to go further into things not making sense, like why the Senate is deadlocked. That's not going to make any sense. How are you going to? You're just going to say the exact same argument. No, well, you're going to make the same argument where it's like, it's details.  We know what's required for the plot. Well, OK, well, then I bring it up right now, then. What is it that's stopping the Senate from dealing with an issue? Two-year-old party voting on the blockade? On anything? Well, I mean, isn't the point that they're so wrapped up in bureaucracy as in too many different people disagreeing in too many different ways that they have to get lots of procedural things done, such as sending an envoy to confirm that war is happening or that an invasion is happening before people can vote on it, when what they want is to simply vote that we go and help Naboo now. That's what you consider a deadlock. Right, that's exactly the point. And I am. And I am a couple times. OK, but they're blocking communications from getting out from a planet. And when they go to the Senate, they can't take a vote on sending a hologram from one place to another. They can't even get to that point. And the background of that is just to say that the Republic is corrupt, basically. So again, why are we rooting for the Jedi or the Republic or any character that's on the good side of this movie if they're so incompetent and so inefficient that they can't even do basic things? Because it's not one person's role. Two Jedi, the Queen, and they get trapped on Naboo, sorry, Tatooine, and find Anakin. We haven't gone to that yet. Not to mention George. I've already said that as well. Again, this is just like the premise, the start of the whole story, right? And again, it was really just meant to be a routine thing that I was sent there to force a settlement and a movie to be done with it. And the whole reason they invited you is because. It's in secret. They're supposed to represent the Republic in secret, have a secret deal that then gets revealed to the rest of the Senate, which is deadlock. How does that work? I'm just I'm sorry. The only thing that I can conclude is this universe is full of retards. What else am I supposed to assume? You're asking why are the why are the Jedi sent in secret and not have this be a public affair? They can't, yeah, they can't. The entire thing is that nobody knows that this thing is going on and they can't verify it. The lore and be like an analog for something that's happening in Iraq, like sending in the people to find out if there's weapons of mass destruction. Like, but at least they did that in real life and the movie, they can't even bother to send a ship over there at light speed in 20 seconds or whatever it takes to get there to check to see if this is actually happening. That's the bad guys.  They're just ineffective. It's a nonsense, yeah. I'm saying just because the Republic is flawed, you can't care about anybody in the movie. The individual people are good people and bad people. I mean, just because the Republic isn't perfect, that doesn't mean that I don't understand how that removes all with all the characters. Because I kind of want to close on the original point here before we move on. So the comparison of how Palpatine created a million Star Destroyers versus what the fuck's going on with Trade Federation and the only difference is because one's a prequel and one's a sequel. No, I didn't say that. Yeah, yeah, what I mean is like, you know, like, well, again, what happened after the last Jedi, right? If we're gonna, I don't count it. Like the first order, you know, there was Snoke, there was Kylo, had pretty much the whole fleet destroyed. Then fast forward a year, Palpatine's back from the dead and he's been building other destroyers this whole time.  It's the same point. Why does it matter why Palpatine's alive? Why does it matter where he got all the Star Destroyers? Why does it matter how the first order exists? Or any, why does it matter that we never understand the sequel's prevalence? The first order versus the resistance when the resistance should technically be the government. Why is any of these questions matter? These are things we all ask when we look at the sequels, but then we ask the same thing. I have a question for the prequels, you say it's not important. Because there's a difference in the start of the story. You start out with, okay, this is the status quo. But when we're doing a chapter nine, you can't just skip it and a bunch of things change between chapter eight and chapter nine. You can't just skip how they changed. And you know what, I don't understand how that applies because you have Lord of the Rings and they had a prequel set to that and they still had to set up a lot more information.  And just because you have, and by the way, I think it's the exact opposite of what you're saying.  I think what Rick was saying there was like, so Palpatine's dead, yet he's alive. The first order is up and running despite the empire being down. The trade federation is blockading Naboo, which is brand new information entirely. We've not got, Naboo was destroying, the trade federation didn't exist. So how is this possible? We're dealing with, oh, this is all new. Okay, this is all brand new. The equivalent would be if... Explain to the audience. Wow. The equivalent to what you're, the equivalent to the point that you're making about episode nine would be if there was an episode zero when an episode zero, he establishes that the trade federation doesn't like money and the trade federation doesn't do blockades. And then we go to episode one and suddenly they're blockading for money. That's called backstory. That's called backstory and it needs to be in your movie. It doesn't have to be episode zero. You just have to understand where the characters are and what's happening. I'm talking about changing things that have been established in the story that you've told so far. But if you're going to establish something, if you're going to establish something, then you have to establish the backstory of that thing from the beginning because you have the beginning of the prequels now. Why do we need a prequel series? Why do we need a prequel series anyway in the first place? If everything is told in episode four. Oh my God. Sorry, I hate when people make that argument. I understand that. It's not even, it's just a point about the fact that you need to explain what's in the movie for us to understand what's happening. Yeah, enough pieces are there to piece it together, all right? Except for the questions that we have. Because it's minutiae that people are asking. I dare you to put a new hope under the same lens as you can dance a minute. I just didn't apply to the prequels. You have to know every single little thing. Again, so tell me why the empire was back to the whole thing. It's not every single thing. It's not every single thing. Explain to me why, what was the empire's overall like oppression of the galaxy. You're emphasizing that stuff. What is the idea of mutually assured destruction? It's a nuclear threat. We clearly understand in a new hope what the stakes are and what the empire's motivation is. It's all laid out to you in like the first five minutes of the movie. It's an empire. They wanna control everything. There's rebels fighting against them. The rebels stole the- They don't wanna control everything. They don't wanna just have anyone in their way to get those plans back. It's all set up very easy. And there's a trade-through with someone watching the fun. Yeah, simple. And what did you say about the Death Star plans though? Excuse me? The rebels have stolen the Death Star plans and the empire will do whatever it takes to get it back. That's the conflict of the movie. Where did they get the Death Star plans from? How did they get them in the first place? It says in the title crawl that spies stole the Death Star. Yeah, but where do they steal them from? How did they steal the empire? That's what you're trying to do. Oh, it's not important. I don't know these things, right? No, I thought you had to tell the next story. You have to answer every next story question somebody could possibly have. This is where the straw man comes from, okay?  We understand what the conflict and the motivation of the empire is. This has nothing to do with a minutia detail that you're talking about.  Are we happy to concede it is a thin, thin inference that they're doing it strictly for the money? Is everybody happy to concede that? Yes, but on the whole point of this argument is if that's well written. Do you think that having thin writing to explain your mistakes? A shallow world is good writing. That's not good writing. Is that more thin than just saying the empire is evil because we say so and that's it? Oh, the empire is evil because we say so and then we see them acting on it as opposed to in the prequels where Padme says my people are dying and then we don't see any people outside of her personal retinue that's even in the city. I would accept if the trade federation said we're an authoritarian government and we just want to take over everything. That's more of a motivation than that's given in the fantabettis. That's not, we don't even get that. If New Gunray and his associates, if they were sitting around and they said we want to control Naboo, they have plasma then that would make sense. If they just had one line. What does that play in the grand scheme of things though? They're Palpatine's puppet. They want to get money from Naboo so they do what Palpatine says. Palpatine's given them assurances, right? Again, Palpatine's playing both sides of the fence here. He's new to land the trade federation and he's also got his persona in the Senate and he's just waiting for the time to, again, push that vote against Valoran. The reason he's attacking Naboo or assigning them to Naboo is for a sympathy vote. And also because he knows the government. He knows how Armadale operates in the light jazz. Too hard to grasp. The Palpatine is not the conflict that the heroes in the movie are working against. That's just something that's going on in the background. The movie's titled The Phantom Menace, dude. If the movie was about some senator trying to block Palpatine's plans, then yeah, I would agree with you, but it's not.  The movie's entirely about the main characters are engaged with the central conflict, which is the trade federation versus Naboo. It's all about freeing Naboo. Correct. And I have the occupation of Naboo so I'm confused what your point is exactly. The point is a million times we don't understand what the stakes are. We don't understand what will happen if Queen Armadale assigns the treaty. We don't understand what exactly the trade federation wants from Naboo or why they're doing any things that they're doing. And if we don't understand these questions, then we're not going to be emotionally invested in the conflict.  The stakes are very clear. Can I just be frank? Do you really just hang up on every single little detail and say to yourself, where's the emotional conflicts? Do you just like watch and pay attention? In my rise of the Skywalker review, one of the first things I talk about is that the conflict in the movie is incredibly inherently flawed because Kylo Ren, who's the bad guy for most of the movie, wants the same thing that Rey, the protagonist, wants in the movie. This is one of the first points I bring up. And you can't have a movie that has no conflict where both the protagonist and antagonist want the same thing.  So it's the same problem. Save the Queen and liberate the planet.  Why is this happening? Why should I care about it? Yes. Oh, we're going in circles, buddy. We are going in circles, and I'm free to move on from this topic. If we're all in agreement we're going in circles, I'm happy to move on. We're going in circles because we can't even get to the main point. Which is, is that well written? Yeah, the debate topic is whether it's well written. Okay, not whether you liked it or whether someone is bothered by it. It's not whether it's well written. And I don't see how anyone can defend the fact that we don't understand the central motivation for the primary antagonist in the movie as being well written. I'm not already. The motivation is money. The stakes are invasion. That's the whole conversation we just took a few hours. Great. Great. That's the answer to your question. The second generation of secondary antagonist, not the primary antagonist, it's the Palpatine. Alright, that's fun. I wanted to point out another little detail, because in case you guys want to throw this in my face. I'm going to use my phone to call you and I want to see you next time. You're not going to.  I'm. I mean, the whole reason the trade federation again, I was going to invade it. And I'm like, you'reèn disappeared. I don't know what you said. Oh. You have your name, you put your noise eight on discord down or something? Me now. Yeah. Yeah. right? Yeah. Yeah. Good. Sorry about that. I know. So the whole like the trade federation they just wanted their money and then they just wanted to piece out right? Invaded because the whole reason they escalated and like invaded is because they'll press time because the Jedi arrived, right? Jedi force the hand he's like this turn events unfortunate we have to accelerate our plans begin landing your troops is like my law is illegal. I then the people like arm and dollar and the people down on the boo they're like the Federation wouldn't dare go that far.  And then we're quite gone and rescue the Queen. I gone wants to get her off planet as quick as possible because he doesn't know why the trade federation are doing this because it's very uncharacteristic of them. It's like they will kill you this day and then like they insist like no no they need to her to sign a treaty and he's like minus and that up at a whole day in Bay where they got to gain from it. There's no logic even says it's not logic in the Federation's movie it feelings tell me that will destroy you like and then that's what makes it a plan and then we's referencing is like you know who is behind this it can't be the trade federation there's something else so even a character Obi-Wan Obi-Wan first line of movies I got a bad feeling he's like I said I got in a character in the movie mentions that the plot of the movie makes no sense and this is a defense of the writing of the movie yeah the whole reason it makes no sense because they're being manipulated by a palpatine for clarification describes them we get it the point is they're cowardly sort of mega super genius and everything that he does works cuz it's the will of the force and he can darken the force I'm sorry that's not well written that's baby writing that's not detailed writing that doesn't give us character motivations and complex character conflicts between each other that gives us a blanket that allows us to do whatever we want flex conflict deep bullshit just focus on what's going on all right I don't need to have a fucking fucking thesis about every single fucking character to care about what's going on okay but don't tell me that it's well written then you just have to pay attention okay so that's a great that's the comment from Qui-Gon is specifically to let the audience know that they wouldn't have done this on their own they're too cowardly the idea is that there may have been a motivation be it greed or control of Naboo but Sidious is the one that spearheads it for him that line that when there is when they're debating whether the Queen should stay on the planet or leave the planet and the security guy saying they should she said stay on the planet because they're not gonna hurt her and then Qui-Gon says this whole thing doesn't make sense yeah he's the point is that if it were just a trade federation he's saying the trade federation's invasion makes no fucking sense he's saying that they wouldn't normally do this and that despite the fact that they're very likely not to her to this situation is very unusual and he senses that she will be hurt by them right but that shows that explain if you don't understand what the fuck's going on how's the audience or is it the issue that quote from his perspective based on what he knows it doesn't make sense so like I said from what we've been over there is enough to infer especially from the line where they say that um they'll have no choice but to accept your control of the system that's what Sidious says to Gunray meaning that Gunray would have to be invested in the idea of controlling Naboo he does seem kind of excited about it throughout the film when they're reporting on different sectors being taken control of and they're described as greedy is that not enough I'm not saying it's strong I'm just saying is that not enough to want to as a motivation they want Naboo they want money they're too cowardly to do it on their own they've been goaded into it by Sidious he's puppeteering them no we first of all we again we don't know if they want money just saying that they're greedy doesn't mean anything well I called it an inference it's okay it's okay it's okay we went over this I called it an inference I thought we agreed on that that this is shallow writing or even George Lucas says he doesn't know and doesn't care and we can move on this is a movie design for 12 year olds to comprehend okay there's a movie for space was just yeah I got it cool thank you Patrick well that was my argument I was saying it has to be written stupid it was for 12 year olds I'm saying it's designed for 12 year olds to comprehend okay it's on me let's move on I'm fine with that let's move on yeah the next point you guys have a point about how it's good now do you want or do we want us to keep it when I was dad going I guess yes okay well I guess if we're going in chronological order the movie bring it the robot says their Jedi how the real okay so the protocol drawer comes in says to the new gunray that they're Jedi how the fuck does the robot know that they're Jedi he says to be fair I'm gonna sitch she says I presume okay right the robot and look like Jedi well first of all they're just wearing robes okay you can't see their lightsaber you can't see Obi-Wan's paddle on hair braid and then new gunray decides to murder two diplomats based on the presumption of a protocol droid thinking that they're Jedi well it's to be fair to be fair Sidious tells them to do that but that goes again into the point that they're willing to Jedi so how does the droid know that they're Jedi because I'm perfectly reasonable to understand that this protocol droid understands what the Jedi are because they've been around for three thought after like a thousand years it's just two people wearing clothes I understand that but that does appear to be the Jedi's police uniform wait there's like a million people that were cloaks in Star Wars every literally almost every character was cloaks in Star Wars well I mean cramming if I'm wrong but on protocol droids and this is the status in the in the IT on protocol droids meant to be like interpreters like they meant to like identify things I'm perfectly reasonable with them presuming that but what I have a problem with is why when Sidious says to kill them immediately they're like okay fine we'll just kill Jedi we'll just kill the the people that were most scared of that's the reason probably why they're going to the Sith I don't know but they're willing to do this thing when they're known to be diplomats that's how that that steak tells me that they're willing to do just about anything for this so again not knowing what they want to go back to that point unfortunately is really frustrating because they're willing to go and kill these Jedi on on the whims of Sidious well I mean I think that I mean well I mean I'm surprised you have a problem with that as opposed to being I mean what it's pretty it was pretty clear you had a problem with it before I mean I think invading a planet is worse than going to Jedi they're willing to do that for Sidious comes back to the same point for example it's but it's weird because if the if the blockade is legal I'm sure that murdering Jedi and diplomats are not legal so no no because um no because okay because um what's gonna happen when the Jedi don't report back to their temple uh well what what happens in the film they deny that they ever arrived right isn't that what they do sure yeah that means be sent in secret yeah right and and but the Jedi themselves don't have any kind of communication well I guess what you're highlighting is they would be concerned right like Yoda and uh I don't know mace wind would be like what the fuck they're gone where are they and but what what you know if anything all they're doing is delaying until they can ratify their taking over of Naboo which should only take I just you know X amount of time it shouldn't be as long as it would take for the Jedi to be like right fuck this we're all going to Naboo in response to our Jedi going missing or something I just want to point out that Yoda consents Anakin's feelings and thoughts on tattooing so I'm surprised that he couldn't meditate and figure out that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were in danger but that's another here no there that's kind of a nitpick I just find it very interesting that um the there's a whole plot mechanic of jamming communications that somehow makes it impossible for anybody to communicate with anybody else it seems very convenient but Sidious can Palpatine can video conference call in and then suddenly they blunt communications and nothing can get off the planet and there's no time in between any of these periods when the Jedi thought maybe we should hijack the systems on the ship before we go down send out a message maybe let's go and warn Naboo instead of I'm pretty sure the highest priority was hey we need to get down to Naboo we need right but they could but they could send the Republic a message to Velorum Velorum could bring that case to the Senate and then that would change what would happen because he's the Chancellor and I don't know he doesn't have the emergency powers but bringing that up in the Senate that he got word from his Jedi diplomats that there's a blockade going on and that they're going to invade the planet right now that would be very helpful but they don't think about it again Naboo like this is meant to be settled like sort of outside the Senate again it was sent if they if they find out that the the Chancellor undermined the Senate by sending two Jedi's in secret and he's going to be in trouble isn't he I'm gonna be like okay well this you know as far as that also gets Velorum into shit you know that way. The claim is that he sent the Jedi secretly because he was undermining the Senate. There's nothing that's getting done yet. None of that's ever explained or told in the movie that is a fan speculation. I mean it's not it's not a fan speculation they see wait what's your what's your what's your what's your grievance I'm sorry. We we don't know why he sent the Jedi in secret. That the vice-chair says that he's like I knew it they're here to force a settlement. So wait a minute wait a minute so in the prequels I thought in the original trilogy the implications that Jedi are the peaceful guardians and monks of the universe so now in the prequels why are they shown to be weird thugs that violently settled disputes according to Gunray. They're weird thugs they don't do anything I don't I don't. Why is New Gunray so terrified of the Jedi if he's just forced. He's full respected monk.  Why is New Gunray so terrified of them. Well they describe just cowardly this could be how they respond to anybody like coming to settle anything. Well wait a minute I know because it seems first of all it seemed like when when they show up Newt wasn't surprised that they were ambassadors showing up to talk about this he was only surprised that they were possibly Jedi okay that's when he started to freak out yeah and from the title crawl of Phenomenis they're just described as the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy to settle the conflict very interesting. So I guess so my question. He didn't attack on the client as well like you know he says Obi-Wan's returned from a board of disputes on said planet exactly a many many things so disputes are conflict and they settle the conflict is that not God in peace.  You've got to think of Newt's position he's planning to invade the planet and the Jedi here to settle a blockade of course you'd be very stressed out. But we don't know why he wants Naboo other than this. Well that's a come back if we I was just addressing Sitch's point though.   I wouldn't describe him as ineffective. Which is weird.  So when you have in the first we'll get to that.  How is there conflict in the movie?  It's not about the droids wipe out. Let me let me let me let me cut you off right there. The Newt Gunray is not incompetent.  He and Austin's like have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before.  He says we will not survive this. That's what he says. He says if you will not survive it. How is establishing your villains as weak in the beginning of your movie a good writing strategy. How are they weak though. They're literally. The Jedi cut them down like butter. Wait so power level wise right. Power level wise. Give it a sec. So the Gunrays they're they're in charge but they don't have the force or lightsabers. Of course a Jedi can chop them in half. That's not a shock. Tarkin could have been chopped in half by a Jedi. Right that's a different argument. The first one was how are they threatening. They're threatening because they have a whole set to control. The ability for them to be chopped in half by a Jedi is irrelevant. Like I said Tarkin can have that done to him if he's in the right place at the right time. I understand that Newt Gunray doesn't want to get in a physical fight with Obi-Wan. That's not my point. My point is that what he represents should be a threat to the protagonist. That's where the tension in the conflict in the movie comes from. So if him and he represents is a Jedi. You're right that the Jedi cut through the the droids like butter. Sure but the droids do defeat the Binks tribe and they get we are told that they're wiping out Naboo pretty easily. Like they're not yeah well you just said that they're like not threatening at all so there's they do achieve something. And at the start of the movie the droids do almost kill Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and they drive him off the ship. They have to still wait.  Yeah because they almost kill them. Effortlessly block their laser to say oh we can't reflect it back because they have shields. Let's just run away now. It's not almost killing someone. Darth Maul with Obi-Wan's hanging the thing. It would have been killed if they didn't leave. I would have actually went down and killed. It would have been killed if they didn't still in the ship and still on the ship and go down the droids. Let me get back to the the original point okay about why this is important.  What matters is in in a story you the conflict derives from watching your protagonist trying to accomplish some goal and the antagonists are trying to stop them.  Okay all right well what if I told you that's the whole premise of the movie start with. The Jedi are just trying to be at the height of the power. Jedi are just trying to be at the height of the power right. They start off on the ship right and the trade federation sends their battle droids off and it's like okay we'll gas them and then if they still allow some of the battle droids in there to them right. They didn't account for the Jedi's having the breathers. They just have to wipe the gas right and then they didn't account for the Jedi being able to test when they tie a squadron like. Wait a minute wait a minute. I'm gonna say I didn't use the breathers. That's one of my points in my notes. Alright fair enough then they can hold their breath for a very long time right. The point is. Hold on a second. Hold on a second. Before you go on they also can tell what kind of toxin it is just by looking at it right. Wouldn't that pay for that? Cool. I just wanted to I just wanted to point out that the the the trade federation is so incompetent they use a visible visible gas to kill the Jedi which they can ultimately know what it is just by looking at it and all they have to do is hold their breath. It's not like a neurotoxin that can go through your skin or anything like that. You have to physically breathe it in and the the doors open before that happens.  Yeah but this is this is also again this is this is the plinket point. This is the plinket point where it's like they why not why not pump gas in and then shoot them in the face with blasters. What what point do you have against that? Hey what what what point do you have against keeping the gas just keep pumping gas in there just keep pumping gas. Hold on hold on good we can get to that. I just wanted to say the breathers but we can find a way that they had it so what's the fact I didn't use them? I wanted to anomaly to finish this point and explaining why it doesn't matter that the antagonists are weak and ineffective. Yeah why that's a good point. Why that's not terrible writing. Yeah well first off how is that how is that bad writing by default? Doesn't that depend on the story? Because there are many ways to tell a story. What you're describing here is like okay storytelling 101 says do this or it's bad. Well I'll tell you I'll explain it I'll answer the question it's because as I said the emotion the emotional investments that people feel from a story is based around conflict and wanting to see your how accomplish some kind of goal whatever the goal might be and typically stories have some kind of antagonist who's preventing your protagonist from accomplishing the goal if the villains typically typically wait hold on true I'm not denying that okay so you agree so if the why am I most sitting quag on dying by the end of the movie?  Well here to I guess to sort of structure this based on what Sitch just said can you think of can you provide an example that would show like otherwise or describe something that happens so we could start moving along because I I do I do like I do like to hear people you know talk about obviously the people obviously but I do feel like we need to progress mm-hmm I do feel there is a lot to talk about a lot to discuss I I have another point though that's that's further and right sorry so I guess such as a point about either the why okay to have an effective antagonist why that's okay and not terrible storytelling all right well then what I would what I would choose as a prime example would be the Avengers and the Chitauri and the Avengers uh they're they cut them down I think I might have I think I might have maybe explained that point poorly or maybe it was confused based on the question being asked maybe it's is is the issue a mechanical one that the droid army isn't effective is that the the issue is that you need effective antagonists for people to be emotionally emotionally invested in the story okay and so for the Avengers example the Chitauri army only shows up at the literal end majority of the movie the antagonist is Loki who keeps outwitting the heroes and is shown to be very effective at what he's doing until he's ultimately defeated at the end okay all right then I just I just want to point out that it's it's very difficult to take an enemy army seriously where in almost every scene they're making some sort of joke and they're robots that have personalities I don't every time they die they go wow man that's just a little clip for the kids right look oh right okay hold on a second whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa good writing had maintains a set of tone it doesn't just flip up the tone otherwise some of those jokes from the last Jedi would fly yeah so my point is that an ineffective unscary villains that can get cut down by butter like what Sitch is saying how is that good writing gets to that all right let me let me start off with his first point about the uh the droids being an effective and uh he used uh well we've talked about Avengers when we sitch like how uh Loki's the entire language as a counter okay and yeah and you you you that was a good point all right so in attack of the clones Jedi don't fight the droids to the end right the antagonists or the second antagonist up to that point is Jango Fett who does test Obi-Wan and does give him a run for his money what happens at the end Jedi cut to the droids like butter but what happens how many Jedi got killed by the battle droids yeah we'll talk we're talking about Phantom Menace i'm not talking about clone wars yet i'll be saying the battle droids are ineffective right and i'll get to in Phantom Menace effective yes against Jedi in small numbers all right now the point of the Phantom Menace and George Lucas has said as much he wanted to show the Jedi it's not very effective against an armed enemy either they do defeat the Naboo but Naboo Naboo without a formal army with just a small security force is able to capture no i was referring to the the end of the film the actual army they fight right right but i'm just saying that that the the trade federation is defeated by a little kid in a starfighter and a couple a handful of pilots and a handful of security guards of the queen's retinue with the help of a couple Jedi sorry even in the prequels that's not a scary force they're they're you know you're fighting goongas gungans that are throwing things at you and and they're marching at each other like it's the 1700s how is that a good dangerous force how is that good stakes how is that good writing they do defeat the gungans on the ground battle well until the brains could defeat the gungans yeah modern day military force with an air force could defeat the gungans okay they aren't they're an incompetent enemy fighting an incompetent force with a guy that's jumping around like killing people by having a droid stuck to his leg and he's just like jumping around going wow how how is that good writing that's right i mean that they didn't have strong enough weapons that's your definition i'm saying i'm saying that the the farcical tone and the farcical tactics are not good writing no it's the time of the movie so so it's a farce so star wars is a farce the first phantom in it they it's a yeah probably yeah so when kwaigon jinn gets stabbed it's it's funny it's a farce guys why would that mean that everything's funny because the it's a light-hearted movie i can't have dark moments well this is what we're saying is it's so it's inconsistent tone isn't that inconsistency in tone you can't have a sad moment and silly movie is what you're saying i didn't say that i didn't say that if you want to if you're trying to okay okay the whole point i think we're going we're going off the rails here again my the original point was that your protagonists need to have antagonists who pose a threat to them to create conflict for your story i'm curious to you when they when they ran away from the droid because does that not give them a threatening presence or is that not considered well no because we don't want to get help if they're going on the federation ship the jedi couldn't they could cut through a few battle droids but they obviously couldn't have to sneak out of the ship and hide they would have been killed by the destroyer right that doesn't which we don't even know because we literally see later in the scene where there's a giant hacker video and the guy says oh no we have to watch out there's a bunch of battle droids and kwaigon says won't be a problem he's completely dismissing the threat of the battle droids but not the droid because can i can i i also okay but answering your question mawler hold on i want answering mawler's question no because here's the the problem with the droid because the droid could show up the jedi deflect them and say oh no we can't easily just deflect the lasers back at them let's regroup and then they just run away doesn't show are the jedi in mortal danger the droid because don't even follow them i'm being completely honest to you the fact that they run away from them gives me the impression that they thought they couldn't beat them yeah they i'm okay with like they felt threatened yeah i'm okay with the droid because being dangerous against the jedi sure so the the best thing in the arsenal of the of the trade federation are the droid because against the okay but the okay but again it's not like if the entire army if they just cut down the battle droids at the beginning and then after that point like we have this army of droid because the chair like oh shit these droid because like really wreck our shit then i would agree with you but that doesn't happen the droid because literally only show up when they need to have a scene where the jedi you have to run away or people get captured they're not they're not part of the army they are part of the army they're all over the battle at the end of the movie and they're in the queen's house what's the part of the jedi you know like any need to grow up they only show up on the plot dictates that they need the heroes to be in trouble so you're complaining that we don't have an antagonist that can put the heroes in trouble but then you don't like it that's the primary threat in the prequel movies is these shitty droids that pose no threat to our protagonist and our protagonist okay but hold on a second imagine the scene where the jedi is well wait wait let i was gonna say let anomaly go he hasn't spoken for a while okay go on go on go on yeah go ahead um yeah so what i'm trying to get at is whole point of the opening and most of the phantom menace in fact is to show the jedi behind their power to show them slicing and dicing these guys and you're right yeah that doesn't um again we don't feel i mean i felt tension so i'm a couple times right but now i'm just watching and i enjoy because i know what's gonna happen obviously slicing and dicing and yeah it's meant to wow you're like wow the jedi aren't stoppable great um essentially you know i'm not from using the technique like gary stews right until they counter dive more and they're challenged not let's say they weren't challenged until more was not a threatening protagonist like i put them in real danger he killed one of the men it he kills the protagonist of the movie main character yeah i know if maul is a threatening protagonist that's the problem if he if they kill it's like okay think of like dragon ball z this is a perfect example okay yes you have you have nappa shows up you have nappa shows up and he destroys all the heroes very easily right and then goku shows up and he just instantly owns nappa okay if if the majority of the saiyan saga and the saiyan arc was goku just beating up nappas effortlessly you'd say wow that's really boring but no that's not what happens you have nappa shows up he defeats all the the heroes this establishes how powerful nappa is goku shows up he defeats nappa that establishes how powerful goku is but then the jeet is there and the rest of this the rest of the arc the primary antagonist is vegeta and goku is outmatched by vegeta the entire fight and he has to keep coming up with tricks and ways to defeat vegeta and use different techniques that's what i'm trying but you need to have a villain that's threatening to your heroes now darth maul is a threat to our heroes but he's not the primary antagonist in the film he only shows up twice once he just shows up and they run away and then the second time they have like a mini side boss in the middle of the the movie he's not the one she's the second day i mean i'm wondering how to define it i say intention for our heroes don't even know that he's even didn't even know that he's around it's almost the end of the movie did i cut out there i'm sorry yeah i didn't even hear you i'm sorry yeah so sorry he's asking me do i want to switch my audio i'm not so i'm not too anyway this was lagging so let me just bring back the dragon for a second well what about when in marge and bhusaga when uh was it goku vegeta and gohan remember they're beating up bobby's thugs and they wipe them out easily yeah there's not much tension there but then they come up against boo himself right or they'd say debora and then it is a challenge i that's what you're saying like i don't really understand well okay so imagine if imagine if 90 percent of the boo saga was goku vegeta beating up bobby's thugs and then the last 10 percent was just boo that's what the phantom and but again the phantom and it's like the droids pose a threat to the jedi they just don't pose a threat in large numbers again the attack of the clones you fear for the jedi when posed against the the battle droids because they're in large numbers are a threat again the battle droids kill more people than the stormtroopers do you have to talking about phantom menace though we have to look at each individual still kill more people than the stormtroopers do in the phantom menace they just don't kill jedi in they the jedi never on steven and don't look all right let me put this way what happens when they encounter a giant army of droids jedi don't engage they f***ing hide right they see the droids and like yeah s*** we gotta hide and sneak dance in a group attack of the clones they get and which by an army and they're f***ed why do people mock the the stormtroopers being incompetent in the original trilogy and in the sequel and not being able to hit the heroes at all why do people mock that so is that question or yeah that's a question why do people make fun of the stormtroopers not being able to hit the heroes in the original trilogy and in the sequels that's retarded because they don't have soldiers because it makes the story have no tension if you see a bunch of stormtroopers who you know pose no threat it's the same problem you can't handle the way the droids now they are very threatening just don't hit me the stormtroopers i'm sorry but if somebody shot at me and they never hit me i wouldn't really be scared the next time that i went in i could like oh no they're gonna shoot around us what are we gonna do i guess run to the objective plot arm and you hope it's a bad movie because the stormtroopers don't hit people enough i don't think i think it's a severe flaw to not have to in the movie where he says you know only imperial stormtroopers are the so accurate and then they never hit anything again that's a flaw sure yeah i mean i wasn't really meaning to go that way i'm just using it as like you know like you point this out for the pre was that the the entire time threatening when they are it just depends on the circumstance stormtroopers are threatening just in the circumstance i just point out that the stormtroopers are being shown uh collectively to be less impactful than the droids and you're claiming the droids to be not threatening i don't think that the main battle droids are threatening i think that the droid because actually do represent a legitimate threat to the jedi since in the movie we see them run away every time it's totally fair i agree with that maybe i disagree with such a little bit you know but i think that he has a great point in that the tension of the movie would be a lot better if the battle droids all were more dangerous we saw them being more serious at the battle it's very easy to make how different they're disposed of they're not very sophisticated it takes on how would you still i think that's what he's referring to what i want to say is what i want to say is how different would the movie be if it were the super battle droids instead of the battle droids the whole time wouldn't they be more intimidating things more joyous yeah more all different companies you're saying wouldn't all right this is where i have a major issue the criticize pretty close your argument now is wouldn't this have been way cooler if no it's not i'm that's not that's not no no i'm saying what i'm trying to but i'm trying to get out of what i'm trying to extrapolate is that there already is a more dangerous looking battle droid right we admit that the super battle droids are a greater threat than the regular battle droids because they've got a double risk blasters what does that have anything to do with what i just said worry wise yes it does because they show up later i but i didn't say anything i'm sorry what i asked is if they're more intimidating and more dangerous yeah okay so are you talking about super battle droids or about destroyer droids yes the the ones that don't joke around that have the beefy torsos that are silver that are that have the heads connected to their bodies they're from the attack of the clones i thought we were talking about destroyer droids i understand that okay i'm just asking you think they're more intimidating yeah he's asking about hypothetically would it be better if the general general purpose infantry unit of the droid army whatever droid that is was more deadly incompetent and serious no because the point of the opening of the movie is to show what the jedi can do to show that the jedi you're talking about just like two or three scenes in the movie where yeah the jedi aren't threatened by the weakest type of droids that the bad guys have which actually i mean your your point before was about the stormtroopers it's exactly the same in a new hope is that the storm troopers aren't that effective but then Darth Vader shows up there's different levels of bad guys i don't see how that makes the whole movie bad because in certain scenes i was actually going to say a point of point to clarify is the stormtroopers are not ineffective in a new hope they are super effective in the opening and then they're deliberately ineffective according to Darth Vader's orders later on as for empire they're very effective in hearth they're not very effective in bespin it's a 50-50 and then in return of the jedi they're embarrassing okay so no but really return i shouldn't watch out i apologize that's that's really returning jedi that is true but okay so but what you said i want to kill any jedi i want to address what you just said about how it's just the opening of the movie that would be that would be totally fine if if the trade federation wasn't the main antagonist it was just here's a scene that establishes who the jedi are and that they're badasses and they're powerful and then the rest of the movie is some completely different antagonist that would be fine but that's not what happens again i go back to the Goku example Goku beats up Nappa to establish how badass Goku is and then he fights Vegeta for the rest of the arc he's not keep fighting people like Nappa's power level for the rest of the movie that's what the could not make the same argument that like the jedi show up and they die from battle droids because they're easy and the droid droids show up and uh the the jedi struggle same with dopp muller they fight more battle droids and then they can't get stuff on and they have to struggle i would be fine if the rest of the movie the droidikos are always there posing a threat to the jedi but i don't even think if i recall correctly that the jedi even fight droidikos at any point after that yes i believe i show up and then i'm fighting any piece from the droid army there's only i'm gonna lie like what the droids they're hardly not going to say what you're saying um i'm not gonna lie like when i i keep cutting out you might have uh say it again just to make sure okay yeah okay cool um like the when the the droids showed up in uh the nabu uh ship hangar when um jedi start to deal with more um i was actually like my seat i was like oh shit like what are they gonna do now like the not even the jedi could stand up to these the jedi running away from the destroyers made the the the destroy droids feel like an whole shit like these things here what are we gonna do right yeah i don't see but again they're not the droidikos are not the central threat of the army right before that as a fashion as the battle droids that's the difference yeah okay so you have a situation where again if you had on all droidikos situation then the the the first time when the jedi show up it wouldn't be so easy for them to free the the queen and then go away the queen instantly they could just kill all the battle droids and fly the queen to the to the coruscant they couldn't just come back and just cut through everything like butter that's that's what i'm talking about they're there why would you make your antagonists purposely suck can you can you just admit that that's a little bit silly aren't because that even quag on going back there with the queen is like i know what you expect like um what this is gonna change because you know if the army comes after there's nothing i can do like i can protect you but i can't take on an army for you so is the idea here that the whole point of the typical battle droid is that individually they are not good or effective at all it's that you can make a bunch of them and you use overwhelming numbers of them point is that in good in good storytelling you typically want your antagonist to be threatening and that is where detention comes from and that the battle droids in the freakle movies with the exception of droidikos who we barely see are all weak and ineffective and suck and we see the jedi just wipe them all out with ease except in attack of the well i'll talk first we're talking about the family so for the for the sake of clarity right so they slice through them in that opening battle until the droidikos show up then they slice through them again when they save uh amidala then they slice through them again when they're getting to the access to the ship and then they slice through them on their way back into uh feed when the jedi do just before they fight more so there are four instances of these fights one of the men's with the jedi technically losing to the droidikos but the whole point is that the battle droids themselves are just you you can't take them seriously as threats is that that's where we're at right yeah we can move on from them with the real maybe maybe the issue here is that the kind of to give each side a bit is the issue isn't necessarily the units used it's where they're placed for instance why if we establish how powerful the droidikos are why are they not the ones escorting queen amidala why are they not the ones guarding the high priority targets so it's about you can make that logical argument that's not i mean i was even making a logic argument i was making an emotion a story emotion argument but you can make that logic argument too why aren't the droidikos everywhere they're so effective well you high next to their really high like guarding the queen for instance right when they're transparent her i'd be willing to accept that they are limited but it would be interesting to know why they're not in the high priority areas i'm still stuck on the story point of the droids being weak the story point is that they do see in the movie that the regular battle droids are weak that's why they upgrade them by phantom menace i mean by attack of the clones they upgrade them to the super battle droids and that's why they needed clones because the battle droids could only go so far i mean it's kind of what the battle droid room there to show is that this was a society that they hadn't had a war for a really long time they weren't very good at it so they had to upgrade in the following movies the battle droids being bad is the impetus for the the whole clone wars for the moratorium strategy is changing and for what happens in the next two movies okay so if you're if you want to see that the the droids are terrible and they're supposed to be terrible i guess that's fine i'm telling you that that they're not bad writing to be disagree that's fine right i don't know you miss my point just representing what i'm saying i'm saying they're meant to be terrible i'm saying they are terrible against jedi which is a very highly skilled or yeah these motherfuckers are enforces the whole galaxy right right against them in small numbers uh effective right against naboo and queen amadala herself they are a very serious threats and even they aren't numbers but they aren't they are not because they lose they lose very very simply to a very very minor force i outlined before what the force disposition was the force disposition of the naboo forces all of them together with their indigenous troops they defeat the droid army by capturing their king essentially so they are not effective they outsmart them they get they remember amadala uh was in and then her decoy catches up and drives the droids away most of them anyway and then she's the plant and she knows they're in the throne she knows what she keeps the guns and she can access it she takes out the guns hands what's what captain and then they they outsmart them they didn't beat him by force right because because of because uh because of the fact that they're using these incompetent goofy droids that's how the queen is allowed to make her plan so they're ineffective because the battle droids don't stop hold on because the battle droids do not stop the jedi from freeing the queen to go out re gather her forces and go in there and win the day they're ineffective as a unit against well against all naboo because they lose they lose everything they lose everything it doesn't matter if look it doesn't this is like it doesn't matter if the droids were the most effective killing force in all the universe against everyone but the jedi if the jedi are the protagonists of the movie that's all that matters i don't and by the way i don't see how they didn't win the day how does blowing up the command ship translate to the trade federation wins that's a different that's something totally different what i'm saying is is that the the battle droid army as a whole loses and is ineffective as a unit in the phantom menace as a whole just because they take the queen for five seconds and then lose to a couple jedi just because they take over the planet and then eventually lose to the plan of a queen that's 16 years old and a bunch of lizards that live in the swamp they are ineffective is just incompetence and it's bad writing so you just want to be more dangerous yeah yeah i want the antagonist to pose a threat to the protagonist to create the the emotion of tension in the movie that's all i'm saying more difficult now you could now you yeah and if you're saying that that doesn't matter okay you disagree you think it's fine Darth Maul is the appropriate amount on that account hold on a second i'm gonna address that Darth Maul is the appropriate amount of tension that should be facing the jedi as the thing that's chasing them that's why it works in that part of the movie it works because you have this bad guy coming after him i understand that the story reason is that the Sith are in secret and they don't want to reveal themselves to the jedi yet i understand that but that's why you would buff your basic soldier unit again the more droid is coming after them yeah and what if the author wants the jedi to be i don't really see how that's a flaw if it's by design the jedi are meant to be you know after the start okay you can we can just agree to disagree on this point yeah what feels like it means you're telling okay let's just move on if well if the if sitch was arguing that it was an emotional investment sort of point as in he's sitting there thinking oh whatever the jedi are going to cut through them every single scene while other people might be like ooh they are getting through this but there are other elements to consider or it depends on any numbers there are or what if droideka show up like there's still maybe tension filled elements for other viewers that if you guys want to thank first of all thank you ma we're trying to move on ma and you just sucked us right back in that was the conclusitory state but but uh no like if there was a scene the phantom anus were like a shit ton of the shitty baladroids showed up and the jedi are like this is too much for us to handle we gotta get out of here and then you establish throughout the movie like oh you know we can only fight the droids for so long because more and more are going to show up and then we're going to be outnumbered like if you establish a threat then that would be fine but again that threat not established i mean they do run away in their first fight i just had to say i i i'm really i'm willing to just move on and leave it at that i think be explained besides thoroughly um yeah move on go for it yeah all right go for it proceed to the next issue whatever a or may not be i want to hear from the side that believes it's good writing i want to hear how it's good writing i know how i don't want to i don't want to hear the negative response to us i want to hear a proactive argument from you about how it's good i think for the to the dominant we're going chronologically okay we can go chronologically again and then yeah point from there i thought that's what we were doing sure which let's continue with that yeah either side can go whichever one feels that they need to make a next point and if somebody's next point is before somebody or after somebody else's then we could just go five minutes in the movie and if it's good or bad whichever side can go can go okay well my next point was about the Palpatine telling them to kill the Jedi so if anyone has anything before that i guess um i mean i think it's perfectly telling to kill them i can move along and so you know the Jedi don't pull a runner and what's happening okay so i i guess okay so i guess my question is what the fuck is palpatine's plan in this movie if he tells the trade federation to kill the Jedi i'm assuming i'm assuming he thinks newt will actually successfully kill the Jedi so if he did successfully kill the Jedi the trade federation goes into naboo they capture the queen and they sign on the force to treaty how the fuck does this help palpatine become supreme chancellor because that would have been even better for palpatine if the trade federation killed to jedi and kidnapped a queen then that would have been more than enough for him to get a vote of no confidence and chancellor valorem he's trying to cut off the senate he wants the whole point is abuse uh uh exploiting his own planet to gain a sympathy vote for himself to gain power so okay so you're saying the whole plot line about forcing the queen to sign a treaty to make it legal is bullshit and that the trade federation is too stupid to understand that the concept of having a queen sign a treaty to make the invasion legal it just means that the trade federation is too stupid to realize that that's not a real thing it's not a it's a real thing but it's a thing that'll get them in trouble they do it because they're more scared of cities because they made a deal with cities in terms of which we don't know they're in it for their own game and they made a bargain with sears doing what cities want is there is something in it for them very clearly and again we're just we're just assuming it's money right you know it's probably applied by the movie but we'll just wait for the sake of for the sake of compromise we'll assume it's money right um that's what are you gonna say well no this okay i'm still on on the how palpatine's plan is supposed to work if everything went according to the way he wanted okay so right because he's saying that he signs the tree that says that the invasion is legal then the conflict supposedly just ends and then they can't vote against the chancellor so how does it help because they force her to they force her to sign a treaty she was still forced to sign that eventually it would come out in the senate she was forced to yeah the incompetent senate they can't figure anything out is gonna fix it the floor in the democracy what okay so you're so you're so so now you're arguing that trade federation is stupid and incompetent because they didn't understand that this plan stupid and makes no sense oh how's it what is the trade federation's plan to help city is again because we know we don't know the terms of their thing or maybe it's just for money they don't understand that what like what's it just saying they don't understand that the the repercussions in the senate are going to result in a vote of no confidence against chancellor valorem how does that help the trade federation why would the trade federation agree to do that because they're afraid of serious but we don't know why they're afraid of city is other than they made a deal with him that gets worse all the time for money or something you're claiming that the only reason the trade federation went along with this idiotic plan of trying to force a queen under duress to sign a treaty is because they're afraid of city is which isn't really established that that's their motivation for doing this and why they would be afraid of city is and then it also means that the trade federation and they're all fucking morons so i mean if that's the argument i guess we can move on from there but i mean i think fear is part of it that's um the the the trade federation at the end of the arena for themselves they don't know if they want which is but well how what are they gonna how are they gonna benefit from them getting to an action that's gonna cause a vote of no confidence in the senate how does that help their plan it's not the trade federation as palpatine's plan don't mean oh my god that is true the gunnery doesn't know that that's what palpatine's trying to do he doesn't know that palpatine is gunnery doesn't know that palpatine being chancellor has anything to do with anything right so how does it how does it benefit how does it benefit them so you're asking how does a vote of no confidence benefit gunray it's not supposed to right what i'm saying is what sitch's point is is that the trade federation is doing an action that palpatine is banking on will be negative in the senate and the trade federation because uh cityist says he'll make it legal are going to go down and do something that isn't legal right and my clearly they stand to benefit something my my point is that if everything went according and unless we're assuming palpatine's lying the entire time to the trade federation which i don't think he is if everything went according to plan if he killed the jedi if queen amadella signed the the thing to make it legal it wouldn't help palpatine become the supreme chancellor which i thought was the entire point of the war why wouldn't yeah it would help him he can use that for in any number of ways to help his case because uh naboo is still being oppressed and the senate is still failing to act under valorem's guidance if he can show that valorem let this the trade federation come to my planet and kidnap my queen and they forced my queen to sign this illegal treaty and then yeah that would get him the exact sympathy vote that he wants so let's try to get a vote for they can get a vote for no confidence against the chancellor in seconds that they can't vote to investigate to see if a war is going on in their own jurisdiction oh no the whole point the whole reason my arm the dog is back is because she didn't want to wait for the vote she and because she saw that message on the ship that you know uh over one like um that's the right word i'm looking for here he tells them that it's a fake but he doesn't truly know he even tells quiet and is like what if it's true and they really are killing people i was like doesn't matter we're running out of options here we're running out of time he's a this out um but then she goes back you see it and if she sees the message and that encourages her you are you don't know she's the queen at that point okay any so uh i guess when it comes to this uh it's it's the whole palpatine's plan that's the thing it doesn't seem to be making much ground this is actually returning to an older sort of discussion we've already have if because again we've got a lot of a lot of content to cover in a way so if you if you guys would prefer to just jump to something else let's not get into the motivation of the trade federation again well we're not just my only point is that palpatine palpatine's plan as per the movie if everything went according to his plan it wouldn't help him become supreme chancellor the only thing that makes him be supreme chancellor is the jedi fucking up his plan so i'm not sure what the heck was going on for clarification when you say going according to his plan do you mean the plan he presents to the trade federation or his own internal plan the plan he presents to the trade federation doesn't help him become supreme chancellor that wouldn't yeah all we need to all that matters is that he's getting supreme his goal in the phantom minister to become the supreme chancellor right it doesn't i don't think he cares what happens to the trade federation necessarily he's just looking to find a way to get a vote of no confidence into valorum right but that okay that's but my point is that if everything went according to his plan there would never be a call to no vote for uh there'd never be never be a no confidence vote if um if he got amygdala to sign that treaty and naboo was given up to the trade federation uh pad may could still in the hell may well a vote of no confidence could still be suggested and in fact if this is this was this is the thing like uh as it's happening it got done in a second and they couldn't figure out nobody was smart enough in this entire galaxy to figure out let's go find out if what they're saying is real no that's what they say they say they're going to do that they said that's the plan he says they're gonna say is that then then amygdala so so what is the point of amygdala saying no so amygdala's upset because she wants them to act now instead of voting on someone to go and find out if they should act which by the way is a relatively reasonable thing to do if they don't have the information they need they're going to find out if there's an invasion and then what and then come back and report to the senate there is an invasion and then what and then the senate vote for whether or not they're going to go rescue naboo from the trade federation but they're hoping what army means plans i don't know maybe the general galactic army yeah i mean i i can't answer that question okay somebody answer what the what the ultimate recourse of the galactic senate is if they've succeeded in their plan to figure out what's happening they would shut down what the trade federation is doing how would they do that army so how are they supposed to do that i'm sure that have like a you know a small force to sort of sort out these sorts of disputes but like you know what the general galactic are probably and yeah they could just send the jedi in full force and do it so why didn't the jedi just do that because they didn't know it was happening yeah the whole point is that the army dollar gets to the senate she has the information that it is happening she can't okay okay i don't talk about it reason why this is another thing correct she has the claim amadea tells them what's happening and the trade federation say that she's lying and they need to investigate first that's the whole point is that she doesn't want to wait for the investigation and the jedi can't corroborate this information to check so that they start the motions to get someone to check whether or not to see if the invasion is actually occurring so she couldn't bring evidence that it was happening i guess they don't have kind of left in a rush what nobody just has there's there's no security cameras there's no data there's no hologram system to see what's happening anywhere in the city we just have to go on somebody's word in star wars in addition to that um like the queen thought her testimony would be enough she didn't realize how broken the republic was until she went there and tried to put plead okay she says the palpatine is like i'm going back nothing's getting done here it's clear to me now the republic no longer functions so exact quote but they don't um also what was i saying you're probably gonna argue also is like why didn't they send all the jedi uh back to naboo with kwai on an obi one the reason why i didn't do that is because they wanted to draw out dothmore so why why didn't they send all the jedi because then dothmore would have been fucked doubt dothmore would have shown himself that was like tensile in jedi waiting for him okay but so there's the so you're admitting that there's nobody was had the foresight nobody had the thinking to bring in some sort of material evidence to prove that anything that on naboo was happening there's no way for that oh i'm saying one of the reasons that's one of the reasons why she didn't uh but also because they left in such a rush they wanted to get her out of there as soon as possible right and they couldn't bring in the they couldn't show off the ship that had got hit by the shield thing on it right they couldn't show off any of the material evidence that they had i don't think that would be very hard right but i yeah that wouldn't be hard to to get rid of in terms of evidence like they could be like that could have been shot by anybody at any time yeah okay also like the fly logs and anything like that wouldn't tell information that there's a blockade that nobody in naboo can get outside nobody can leave there's no information that can be transmitted in any way because the communications were blocked and by the way if the communications are blocked why don't you bring that up in the senate and say hey nobody on our planet can talk because the trade federation is blocking it let's call them let's call them right now in the senate i don't you're asking for like technical details about how their hologram systems work and all that and that's that's i mean you can you can i'm sorry is there i'm so i'm like is there a reason why they can't communicate in the senate to naboo to prove that there is a communications blockade that there is a trade blockade is there any in unit there's a communication in the center right so i mean they're already gonna go back there to check it okay so all they have to do all that the senate has to send someone to check it anyway so if i go into the if i go in with my communicator or whatever that's connected some radio link that's connected on course on and i say hey everybody in the senate look what i'm doing dial the number up naboo's not i can't get to naboo does that prove that there's an invasion well what does it prove proves the communication with