Ladies and gentlemen, we are thrilled to have you here for this epic debate or I should say discussion Which is going to be I think one for the record books folks We are very excited about this and want to let you know if it's your first time here Consider hitting that subscribe button as we have many more debates to come. So for example this Friday Dr. Richard Carrier and Jonathan Sheffield will be debating the resurrection should be very exciting and In addition want to let you know we are a non-partisan platform. So we have no positions We leave it completely up to the speakers to make their case We don't have any sort of aftershows in which we take a position We let you as the audience decide who you found most persuasive and we want to welcome you here No matter what walk of life you come from so with that we're going to get into the format for today's debate But first I really wanted I want to show this you guys I'm really excited about it so let me just quick show you and I Don't know if you guys know I I probably alluded to it a little bit I grew up watching pro wrestling, but this is the coolest thing. So what I'm going to do is Really, I've got this huge. Thank you for Scott Stanford as he is a seven-time Emmy-winning announcer in WWE current announcer and He's got a message here. So let me just kick it over to Scott for this introduction of our speakers Hey guys Scott Stanford here seven-time Emmy award winner from WWE and I am excited I'm so excited to introduce Ray Comfort and Matt Della Hunty And I want to wish them a very friendly dialogue in their debate today coming your way on modern-day debate Thanks so much. Okay, so very excited. This is like I said, this is kind of like our super bowl of events This is gonna be a lot of fun Want to let you know the format is more like a dialogue than a debate So it's going to be a 10-minute opening statement or so from each side and then open Conversation followed by Q&A if you have any questions feel free to fire them into the old live chat I will look for those questions and if you tag me with at modern-day debate It makes it easier for me to make sure I get every single question in the Q&A list Also super chat is an option if you want to do super chat You can also make a comment toward one of the speakers to which they'd of course get to respond to and It will also push your question or comment to the top of the Q&A list The only thing we ask of course is that you be your Regular friendly selves for all of your questions or comments as we really do want to make our guests who welcome We're really honored to have these guys. They are in the kind of the speaking world like Titans It's very fun to have them and so we really do want to make them feel welcome. And so with that we are going to Want to mention one last thing I have put both of the links of our speakers in the description So that way if you'd like to hear more you can hear more That's why I put those links down there so you can click away if you want to hear more and with that We're going to kick it over to Ray for his opening statement, but one last thing I do want to give you guys a proper Introduction so I do want to quick mention first Ray is the CEO and founder of living waters which exists to inspire and equip Christians to fulfill the Great Commission in addition want to introduce Matt as well who is host of the atheist experience Which is a live weekly call-in show and they invite believers to call to discuss what they believe and why so with that We're going to kick it over to Ray and just want to say one last thanks to our guests for being here gentlemen Pleasure to have you It's a pleasure to be here James. I'm delighted to see Matt. I love Matt. I respect Matt You said he said some bad things about me and we may not be friends But I always count him a friend and I'm delighted the last time we met was when I interviewed PZ Myers Here locally in Southern California Matt may remember that and I use that footage and evolution versus God and Also Matt, I just want to take a moment to thank you so much for the kindness with which you treated me when I was on the Atheist experience. I've never forgotten that and by the way, you usually get over a million views for the videos Sometimes not usually. Yeah, well, I noticed that's over a million. So people like Dumball banana man by the look of it But you were very very gracious to me a number of times and I was overtaught I heard you say hang on hang on let Ray speak and I greatly appreciated that so the subject today is Does the gospel make sense?  How much do you have to hate someone not to share the gospel with them? So Matt, you're the man. You're the dartboard and the arrow is coming your way Um, I believe you're in terrible danger and I believe you don't believe that and if I can convince you But you are in terrible danger. I'm doing you the ultimate favor You know, I was a believer in evolution when I became a Christian But the night I became a Christian it wasn't somebody destroying evolution that convinced me that the gospel was right It was one Bible verse and that is where Jesus said in the sermon on the mount the most famous sermon ever preached You've heard it said by them of all you shall not commit adultery and I remember thing to myself Well, I've never committed adultery enough heaven exists. I'm going to make it there because I've not broken that commandment Then I read the words of Jesus But I say to you whoever looks upon a woman to lust for her has committed adultery already with her in his heart And it was like an arrow hit my chest and Matt I know you're very familiar with the gospel. You're very familiar with the words of Jesus I'm sure you're very familiar with the story of the rich young ruler who came to Jesus now down and said good master What should I do during Harry to know life? It's I think mark 10 verse 17 And Jesus said something really weird to him. He said, why do you call me good? There's none good, but God and the reason he did I believe is that most of us proclaim our own goodness We think we're good people, but then Jesus gave him Five of the ten commandments to bring the knowledge of sin and to show me was a sinner And that's why every time I do a debate or witness or share to someone share with someone I go through the commandments to bring the knowledge of sin because I know Matt That you have a conscience that bears witness with the commandments God has taken his time to write his law upon your heart You intuitively know it's wrong to lie steal murder commit adultery even to lust and you know in your heart God should be first when I realized that on the day on the day of judgment And I realized on the day of judgment. I'd be guilty before God. I'd be condemned to hell justly by God I'd be damned That's when the cross made sense that Christ died for our sins. You and I violated God's law Jesus paid the fine. That's what happened on that cross Matt if you're in court and someone pays your fine a judge can let you go and do that which is just and right You can say Matt. There's a stack of speeding fines here This is deadly serious But someone's paid them you're free to go and you can do that which is legal and right and just even though you're guilty You can walk because someone paid your fine and even though you and I are guilty before God under the death sentence God can take the death sentence off us and live legally live forever Because Jesus paid the fine and full on that cross and rose from the dead and defeated death Now here's the rub most people don't realize what death is And Matt, I'm sure you're familiar with this famous Bible verse that you learn when you're in church Roman 623 The wages of sin is death According to the Bible death is wages. God has paid you in death for your sins It's like a judge in a court of law has a heinous criminal before him And he says you've raped three women and murdered them. I'm paying you in the death sentence. You've earned this This is your wages.  This is lymph node cancer. It's my test Besides you're gonna be dead in two weeks. It's nothing we can do for you.   You're not interested in atheism You're not interested in sex partying poos having a good time and so nauseated by the drugs side effects All you can think of Is in two weeks you're gonna be put in a hole in the ground And you're saying I wonder if there is a way to find everlasting life and this isn't some weird scenario Over 600,000 Americans will die of cancer from the next year So have you come up with an answer? Well, I have Christ died for a sentence rose again on the third day the wages of sin is death But the gift of God is eternal life and this is the reason the gospel makes no sense To someone who's proud of heart somebody won't acknowledge their sins if you're on the freeway And I suddenly stopped you and said hey, man Someone's paid a fine for the law that you broke. You probably say that doesn't make sense. I haven't broken any law What are you talking about and and what are you saying? I'm a lawbreaker. The good news of a fine being paid for you'll be foolishness It won't make sense But if I take the time to say The area you just drove drove through at 75 miles an hour was set aside for a blind children's convention 15 miles an hour was the maximum speed. There were signs everywhere. You're in big trouble You're going to jail for a long time or you've got this massive fine That someone's paid it Now because you realize how serious your transgression is the fine being paid for you. It's not foolishness It makes sense and it's exactly the same with the gospel if someone's proud and self-righteous They don't see sin as being serious The gospel will make no sense from Christ paying the fine for I don't need that. I'm not a sinner But once you realize how serious sin is that it's Gives you the death sentence that God's Rathabites on your enemy of God and your mind through wicked works Once you acknowledge that with a good and honest heart, you've got a humble heart Then the good news of the gospel makes sense It's the best news you could ever hope to hear that God can grant everlasting life Not as a spook on a cloud playing the rusty heart for eternity But God says you can have everlasting life. I'll prove it to you. I'll prove myself to you All you've got to do is give up the fight Start the rebellion repent and trust in the savior And God promises he'll reveal himself to you even if you're an atheist It's happened to many atheists happen to me and matt It's my deepest prayer that you consider what I've said today because my motive isn't to win a debate It's to win you because I love you and I care about you Over to you matt take me to pieces Thanks so much ray and absolutely we'll kick it over to matt floor is all yours Oh, I didn't I didn't notice anything about time. So hey welcome. Uh, I got a bunch of questions That came to me. I'll have questions for ray later, but a lot of people were like, wait a minute Why are you doing this debate with ray? You swore you'd never debate ray again after the last time when he said he does Not interest in debate. He just loves you. Yes. I said that this is not a really structured debate We're stating our positions and then we're going to discuss it. Which okay, if you want to pick pick nits Then yes, I'm debating ray, uh, which is fun so I uh When I'm looking at this the first thing comes into my mind is okay We want to make sure that we're talking about something different that ray and I haven't discussed before so it's not slavery It's not the existence of god. It's the gospel message and whether or not it makes sense So this isn't about everything Or anything that just happens to appear in the gospels I'm not going to be worried about how to reconcile the easter at council though That's a wonderful subject to potentially debate as I don't think it can be done I'm not worried about genealogy or historicity just concerned with the message And so the first thing I had to do is think well, what did I understand the gospel message to be When I was a believer and I have I have a jesus fish hat around here that I would occasionally like to put on But I won't do it during the debate what I understood the gospel message was that uh Man brought sin in the world through disobedience this created an issue where there was a separation from god and righteousness There's nothing that we can do no works that we can do nothing that we can accomplish that is going to that is going to alleviate this Wrong that we've done And it will eternally separate it from god and then jesus dies and is reborn To forgive us of our sins and that this is the mechanism that provides salvation from the debt you owe By grace through faith for those who believe and although to be clear Because I talk so much about belief I don't remotely think the gospel is just an intellectual exercise in believing that there's a god. That's not what believe in means in that context But there's a number of problems here I won't get into whether or not a god exists other than to say that is an issue because it's like You know, we get to the to the end of raise opening and you're talking about me speeding and there's signs everywhere I'm sure we'll deal with that in detail But the first issue is who put up those signs is that a recognized authority that can actually enforce the law I don't have that when it comes to god The notion of sin itself is something that I find strange. I don't know how you could wound a god. I don't know how you could wrong a god But it because it boils into like thought crimes too, you know, if you if you've thought something Then you're guilty cool But the notion of original sin is problematic Because did god know that well, we'll just stick with the bible as writ Did god know that adam and eve were going to fail that they were going to disobey that they were going to eat The fruit of the tree that he specifically said they shouldn't was there any way that that could have gone any other way Is it possible that god could have created a universe in which there wasn't Uh inevitable sin and did god know this ahead of time because if god knew this ahead of time and could have done differently Then god's the one that made the decision to bring original sin in the world not adam and eve Then there's this notion of inherited sin Which is not that i'm born guilty for what i'm actually doing But then i'm already born guilty because of what other people have actually done this notion of inherited sin It begins with original sin It progresses such that we are all guilty carrying on the sins of the father not through necessarily what we've done But because of what was done prior to us. It reminds me and i My relations first of all my relationship with my father is fine but it reminds me of a time when my dad gave me a beating and When uh, he found out or had a good suspicion that i hadn't actually done the thing That got me the beating he said well Then that was for something else that you did that i didn't catch you for It's this notion that the beating first of all, which we shouldn't beat any children I don't care what the bible says or anything else.  It is it is Of the things we're talking about whether or not the gospel message makes sense This is where the nonsensical part begins. This is this is the the Things that most christians that i met and would have interacted with Would put down as no no no that's not of god Not the sacrifice sacrifice. Yes, but the blood magic. They just don't recognize the tie to it so Then jesus becomes a special case sort of blood sacrifice But the question is why can't god just forgive people if god created people god created the rules god's the enforcer of the rules God wants to be lenient. He's the judge.  So if god wants me to know his rules. He can tell me himself Uh, it's strange that I'm somehow responsible through inherited sin for the guilt of other people But when I'm told, you know, hey, you've done things yourself that are against what god wants You're absolutely correct that I have done in fact many things that are against what some people tell me god wants so if That what before we're looking at here is does the gospel make sense? Let's look at it from a strategic standpoint. If you're god, what is your your goal? I I'll be interested to hear what ray thinks god's actual goal is But there's a couple of possible goals if your goal is to get a bunch of people Who agree with you and love you to spend eternity with you Why not just create them all with you to begin with why this tap dancing rigmarole of creating a bunch of people Having the vast majority of them or some sizable chunk of them be damned to hell after a life of Suffering or misery or happiness or whatever they ended up getting out of it because this life is like What you're being judged on but it's not anything significant. It's like it's like dirty rags according to scripture So why not just create the chosen people in heaven to leave everybody else out of it? Uh, if the goal is to get some people specifically the people who like you and who you like to spend eternity with you That's the most efficient plan Create those people in the location with you What what's a boneheaded way to do this and that would be to create a universe Wait billions of years Create a man out of mud and a woman out of that man Tell them not to do something that you know they're going to do and then threaten them with death And then when they do it don't kill them just make their life difficult Then go through a comedy of errors of having people fall Their fail to love you or listen to you or obey you over and over flood the world start over again Confuse their languages in order to try to start over again encourage war Gradually go from walking and talking with them to not interacting in any detectable way and then magically impregnate A young girl so that you can take human form as a sort of god man That's fully god but fully man, which doesn't actually make sense So that you can sacrifice yourself to yourself as a blood magic loophole for rules You're in charge of so you can set aside your own anger because that's the thing that we're being saved from is god's wrath uh, it's just that it's declared to be justice and and Then expect future generations to believe without sufficient evidence I mean god's interaction with the world vanishes In direct correlation to our ability to accurately investigate the world So god's genius plan seems more nonsensical with each new dawn and each new discovery The silence is deafening and the model doesn't make sense Perhaps the goal might be to teach people That you have to go through and live life the the hard knocks lessons that way of actually learning and understanding But which is a better way of teaching a classroom with an actual instructor there to guide Or one where the students just show up with a list of things they believe that the teacher wants us to investigate It'd be like saying I really want a ham sandwich with gouda cheese on a sweet Hawaiian roll So I'm going to start by dumping a bunch of people in a grocery store and letting them just experiment and early on I might steer them a little bit But I'm gonna get increasingly less involved to the point where no one can even demonstrate that I'm still around or want any sort of meal at all It's a bad plan. Just make the sandwich you want.  You can do whatever you like This variety of proposed plans feels more like the flawed thinking of men And less like the all-knowing product of a wise god Ray mentioned Matthew 10 17 I think you mean Matthew 1916 because that was in the notes for what I asked you that's the the passage Mark 10 17 mark 10 17. All right. Matthew 19 16 is the one I was referencing, but we'll get into that So that that's it Matt you're the straw man king. That was amazing. I could write a book on everything you said there But let's just pick up some of the things you said One of them is that god didn't give any signs about the speed. Yes. He did. He's given you a conscience He's written there with a Pan of a diamond on your heart Conscience is so powerful that drives many men to drink and some to suicide How do you show that god gave me a conscience? Yes, sir. It's a society shape, but it's god-given. How do you know that? How can you show that? You can sit here all day long and tell me that my conscience is god-given But also my conscience does not clue me into the same things being wrong that yours does That's exactly right. The bible says you sear your conscience as with a hot iron You know what seared stake is just on the outside. It's cooked but on the inside It's soft and tender if you cut it with a knife If we cut your conscience with a knife today the knife of god's law Would find out that it's written on your heart. You know it's wrong to steal, don't you? I know that it's wrong to steal but not because of a conscience or because it's written on my heart You know it's wrong to lie, don't you? I don't know that it's always wrong to lie. I know that it's situationally wrong to lie For example, if Anne Frank's up in my attic and the Nazis come knocking on my door to ask me if there's any Jews in my attic. I'm going to lie and say no. Would you think would you agree that's a good thing? Yeah, I agree the genesis says that the the midwives were Smiled upon by god because they lied to fear about the children that were being born Because they didn't want to convert murder. So I'd hide Anne Frank also. So I'm where you're there Hey, have you ever used god's name in vain? Uh, how many do you want just today or this week or now? Why would you do that? I don't know what god's name is because I don't know that there is a god I've used the names of many gods over the years Um, I'll in in conversation in ways that other people might find Matt would you use your mother's name as a cuss word? Well, I don't use anybody's name as a cuss word. I'll use it in conjunction with a cuss word Never use the name of jesus as a cuss word I've used it as an expletive. I don't know that it's So if I say jesus christ, um What about that makes it cussing as opposed to praising using it in vain letting it run off your lips with no Do you honor? That's what means to take it in vain Yes, and that no one would would use his mother's name as a cuss word That'd be a horrible insult to her and when you take god's name and use it as a cuss word. It's called blasphemy. You know, it's wrong It's written on your part. I don't know it's wrong I don't agree that it's wrong and I don't know what see this is the thing you keep making assertions about what I know and they're wrong and so If I how would you how it how does it feel?  He's accusing me Yeah, and here's my problem. I have an instruction book that is inspired by god tells me all about you god knows how many Here's around your head. He knows how many I don't know god knows How do you know that that's even true? Let me finish what I'm saying because it's so important He knows how many years upon your head. He knows the moment of your death He sees every secret sin you've ever committed and every time you sin you store up his wrath The instruction book for humanity the bible tells me exactly what you know that you know in your heart that god exists The heavens declare his glory when we broke from britain. We didn't say hey, we might be thinking of leaving No, it was the declaration of independence and psalm 19 says the heavens declare the glory of god every time you look at the heavens You know god exists and denying because of the moral responsibility Now that's that's what the instruction book tells me that's how I say I can know because the instruction book tells me about him Matt So what you're saying is you have a book that tells you something so you can't possibly be wrong And yet i'm looking at you telling you that you are in fact wrong about what I do or don't know That's right. So matt you remember the prodigal son yes Why did he go to a far country remember he he said dad give me all my money and the bible says he went to a far country Why do you think he went to a far country? I don't know probably looking for change No, he was wanting to get them with prostitutes And I'm sure he didn't want to do what he wanted to do under his father's nose because he knew his father What's wrong with prostitutes? What's that? What's wrong with prostitutes? I didn't say anything wrong with prostitutes I said he went to a far country to get away from his father because he wanted to go and visit prostitutes And he knew what he was doing wrong and his father would frown upon it But this is what evolution is or sorry. This is what atheism is.  I don't know anything in my heart I know things in my head, but I'm fine with the colloquial and the and the poetic okay um, so first of all What the prodigal son story says is that he basically wanted he ran off to go live a wildlife It doesn't say anything at all about prostitutes, correct Is there a single is there a single version of the bible that mentions prostitutes in that story? all of them Where His father came the son came to the oldest son came to his father and said your son went and visited prostitutes It's in the script.   Today Yeah, and so you're addicted to it like every man. I'm not addicted to it There's no such thing as porn addiction, but I'm definitely not addicted to it But also you haven't demonstrated that there's anything wrong you come in with this package that begins with like the entirety of your your opening is And you're right. It was mark 1017, but I think you said matthew 1017 and I was going with matthew 1916 So that was the thing I had them both in the notes there You talk about hey somebody came up and paid your fines for you um And that i'm the king of straw man. Yes. All right God created the world, right? Yes, and Did god know everything that would happen in this world? He's a messian God knew that I would be an atheist There's no such thing as an atheist man.  I genuinely do not believe that a god exists Yeah, but you know you need Total knowledge to be an atheist. That's what no you don't no I'm not asserting absolute certainty that there are no gods Atheism is the position of not accepting that there is a god. That's it Okay, I don't accept that there's a god. What? Okay Did god that that's what I'm gonna call atheists. I'm a non-believer Did god know I was going to be a non-believer. He knows all about you man. Okay Could god have created a different universe where things went differently where for example, I became the preacher that I set out to be Yes Okay, so if god created this world when where I end up an atheist Instead of the world where I end up a believer Then god made the choice that resulted in this particular universe over another one, correct? Yeah, but man, this is like Yeah, but there's no but here god made the choice that resulted in this universe I've just made an ironclad argument Based on your own statements That god is the one that is ultimately responsible for choosing the universe in which I'm a non-believer as opposed to choosing the universe where I'm a believer That means that the ultimate responsibility for that decision is not mine, but his Oh, like let me address that because you bought it up before in your first format One of the first if you stand in front of a judge in a court of law and you're guilty of committing a serious crime And you say god may be did it god may be do it. It's not my fault. It's god's it's original sin That's why I raped that woman. So it's god's fault. It's not going to hold water even in a civil court That's not what i'm remotely saying. So first of all I don't recognize that there's some god that has authority over me. You're telling me i've broken god's law I don't recognize that there is a god or or that god's law can be broken. That's just the thing I'm not saying i'm not making a case That says I in fact in reality am not responsible for my actions. I'm saying that under your model Since god made the decision to create the universe in which I become a non-believer as opposed to creating the universe in which I become a believer God is the one that is responsible. He's he's decided everything everything has happened according to god's plan There is no free will in your model. There is no individual responsibility in your model The fact that you're choosing Not to believe in god's existence. I don't choose It's not a choice. We will man. We know that this is it's it's ridiculous Okay, well, i'm sorry, but just simply making assertions and saying something's ridiculous is not an argument and it's not evidence Okay, let me say something positive here and correct me if i'm wrong An atheist is someone who believes the scientific impossibility that nothing Created everything. No, you're wrong that none of that has anything to do with atheism Atheism is is a single issue Are you convinced that a god exists if the answer is yes, you're a theist if the answer is no, you're an atheist You can you can be an atheist and believe all kinds of really Silly stuff you can you can believe that you can deny science and think that vaccines cause autism You you can deny science and think that the earth is flat That you can do all of those things as an atheist The atheism isn't a worldview. There's no that there are things that are you know If you don't believe in a god or if you don't believe in the supernatural Which is separate because some atheists could in fact believe in the supernatural. I don't I don't see any mechanism by which We can demonstrate the supernatural is real this is How many years have we granted it's been a number of years since the last time you and I interacted But this isn't the first time somebody's explained to you How I use the term atheist. I know because I've done it before myself So why are you coming back to me to say that? Here's what atheists means when you know damn well from all the past conversations. We've had what I mean by it Richard Dawkins, Lawrence Krauss, P. Z. Myers and seven other leading atheists are not in this room And would agree with me. Let me finish They believe and I have quotes in a video online called crazy bible In which Dawkins Krauss, P. Z. Myers and other well known leading atheists believe the scientific impossibility That nothing created everything not that nothing was in the beginning. They believe nothing was the prime mover is that why you believe No So what do you believe created everything? I don't have an answer for what or if anything was created I have no problem with the notion that the universe existed forever in some form But none of those why I This has nothing to do with atheism. That's not the definition of atheism. That's not the usage of atheism Atheism doesn't tell you anything about what someone believes about the origin of the universe Atheism addresses what someone does or does not believe about a god Not true. You watch crazy bible It's had over a million views and it gives the definition of atheism says these guys believe nothing created everything And they say what was in the beginning? They say what they believe was in the beginning. There was nothing and then nothing created everything Good luck getting a debate with them. But today you're here with me So can we address what my position is or are you just going to keep straw manning me with what other people have said? Well, Lawrence grounds won't debate me. He gave me four questions when we met together. I wasn't allowed to ask anymore because they're afraid It's what Dawkins won't debate me. Of course not. Why should he why should anybody if all you so you first one No, no, nobody nobody should be debating you because you flatly said in the last Attempted a debate we had that you don't care about debate and you don't care about proof and in this in this discussion Your entire position is predicated on an assertion that there is a god who is a judge of the world And then let's let let's take a look and see if the bible makes sense If we begin with that presupposition, but you cannot look at it You will not you refuse to look at it as if we don't begin with that presupposition You've provided zero evidence All you've done is make one assertion after another after another right out to telling me I'm wrong about what atheism is. How monumentally arrogant is that? Hey, Ray, you're wrong about what christian is That doesn't worry me at all I'm secure in my beliefs. You can say what you want. I know you are I get angry, but but but but it's not it's not about whether or not you're secure because you said something that you said If you you believe I'm in terrible danger and that if you convince me you're doing me a favor however That's not true Because if you're wrong and you convince me then you did not do me a favor That's right So so the whole issue here is whether or not you're right How do we know whether or not you're right? All you've got to do is obey the gospel as I said before if you repent, you know Matt I've got a very difficult task because the hardest people to reach are those who are Vaccinated against the truth.  Thank you for proving. You don't know me at all I guess I do matt. I've heard you share your testimony You don't because the character's sure that you just did I didn't have trials and tribulations that led me away not once Not not remotely So did you know the lord or not? um, so here's the thing No, but I don't believe that anybody knows the lord. That's the thing when people say when people say oh matt You weren't a true christian if they mean that I did not have an actual relationship with the risen christ Then they're correct But I don't believe that anybody does But if they if they what they mean is that I did not sincerely believe that was the case Then they are wrong and because I sincerely did believe that was the case And so did everybody who surrounded me including my parents who thought I was gonna be a Including people from my former church who came to a debate that I did with mike lakona specifically to say hey I was a deacon at your church. I knew you I knew you loved the lord. What happened? So you can you can sit here all day long and do the matt was never a true christian because I don't care None of that goes to show whether or not you're right It just keeps showing how how right you think you are which is absolutely obnoxious Matt you just judged every single christian on the surface and says they don't said they don't know the lord I know the lord millions of christians do you didn't know the lord you were i didn't say that I said I do not believe that i'm open to being convinced. I didn't say you don't have a relationship with christ I said i'm not convinced that you do and you need to do some convincing work that doesn't just involve Claiming that i'm wrong misrepresenting my life making assertions about what I know when I don't know it It's obnoxious okay The christian according to scripture is someone who knows the lord That's what the bible says the book of hebrus when someone's born again They come to know god you didn't you were deceived you did what judas did you followed jesus for a few years and you fell away in time Do it again do it properly this time truly repent and what you when you put your hand of the plow You won't look back because god will make you fit for the kingdom You know ever you're saying that there's nobody in the history of the world who's ever sincerely believed Who is now an atheist I don't know why you're bringing the word sincere Sincere doesn't matter you can be sincerely on a plane hitting for new york But if you're heading for hawaii you're in the wrong direction Sincerely believing Sincerely believing that they have a relationship with christ is what i'm talking about Yeah, they may be wrong Oh Now you've just set up a scenario where you can't be wrong. Congratulations. What happened to you No, no, no, you don't get no no ray I swear to the god that you believe in if you make one more accusations about what happened to me that just isn't true We're just done Okay, I don't care about the rest of this discussion Just stop asserting that you know my brain better than I do Because you're wrong and you're going to you look incredibly foolish doing this Okay Let's change the subject a little bit. Okay. I'm down there evolutionary charts You know the bent over guy who's slowly straighting up walking to the right You really were that Am I familiar with it? Why are we talking about evolution? The issue here is whether or not the gospel makes sense Well, this will make the gospel make sense when you realize the foundation build upon as erroneous Just explain to me while I've got the foundation that what's built upon as erroneous evolution All right. I I'm the whole point here. Wow. I you just you just caused me to lose a bet I'm pretty sure Because the whole point here was discussed the gospel and they're like nope Ray's just going to show up parading his ignorance about evolution that he's been corrected on a million times And I I argued on your behalf and I said, hey, that's not fair Because the fact that you think ray has been corrected doesn't mean that ray thinks ray has been corrected All all in Ray's mind all that's happened is that you've told him that he's wrong and he just doesn't accept it Now if we're going to talk about whether or not the gospel message is sensible It'd be nice to address the The the position that I took and address the position that you took But if you're just going to try and prop up this I I'm in Do you think that my acceptance of the model of evolution is why I'm an atheist? I think it's your foundation You're wrong See you should really I pretend to read minds on stage and I'm actually pretty good at it You should never pretend to read minds on stage or at all because you're bad at it My acceptance of evolution is in no way foundational to my not believing that God exists Well, I understand that that's two different issues Well, you just said the opposite. Well, don't you believe evolution? Am I wrong? I do I believe evolution? I accept that evolutionary evolution by means of natural selections is the best current scientific explanation for the diversity of life Yes, but that's not why see do you not realize that I could I could have Believed something and it didn't impact whether or not I believe something else, right? Yeah, yeah, sure someone doesn't want to believe in God's existence No, this isn't about doesn't want to believe you call me the king of straw man. I have not you have not actually Done a single sentence out of your mouth That even remotely attempts to steal man what I'm saying every time you try to caricature What I'm saying you come up with a straw man. It's not about what I wanted to believe belief isn't a choice I didn't set out to do this I set out to be the best christian I could be I set out to actually demonstrate to my godless roommate That god was real That was You know why Because you're gonna you're gonna get angry and stop this debate. You're just gonna work. I'm not. I don't know what you mean I'm not remotely angry. I can't challenge you with anything because you get upset. You get angry. I'm not angry I'm I'm trying to get you to actually make an argument based in evidence and stop just claiming that you know What's going on in my head? Go through the gospel again and see if it makes sense to you because I explain why it doesn't make sense The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that are perishing. I'm sure you know that scripture I know it very well, but that doesn't mean it's true The fact that you can point to a scripture and interpret in a way that makes it look like all you just said is Matt refuses to believe that's not true I'm asking for evidence I've never said Matt refuses to believe Creation is proof of the creator every building has a builder Every painting has a painter the heavens declare the glory of god and every universe has a universal Yeah, every every universe has a creator. No every universe has a universal You don't get to call it a creation. You have to demonstrate that it's a creation. You don't have to demonstrate anything I don't have to explain to you that a building has the builder It's axiomatic you have to demonstrate that the building is a building and not just something that appears to be a building What are you talking about? If I if I there's a creek out behind my house And and there's I go out after a couple weeks of not tending to it And it's blocked up by a bunch of sticks in mud Is that a beaver dam or is that as a result of a natural clogging of sticks and flooding? It's a result of natural clogging How do you know how do you know it's not a beaver dam? Okay, so let's go back to the building the building is evidence of a builder the painting is evidence of a painter And it's impossible Scientifically for nature to create itself because it would have had to be pre-existent to create itself before it created itself And the other thoughts are you earlier on says the universe could be eternal That violates the Second law of thermodynamics. Okay. No, it doesn't because okay. So ray first of all second law of thermodynamics only applies to a closed system So just I mean you should just stop with that stop pretending that you understand physics at all But I asked about a bunch of sticks blocking up a a creek How do you determine whether or not it's a beaver dam or just a natural occurrence?  No You said it was just a natural occurrence and I want to know how you determined it wasn't a beaver dam Well, your analogy is that every building is just a natural occurrence. It doesn't have a build Wow, you can't understand. Okay. So my analogy is not that every building is a natural occurrence My analogy is that here is a structure And we need to determine whether it was the result of an intentional design and effort or whether it occurred naturally That's how we recognize design We don't not by complexity, but we recognize that we compare that which was designed which we have evidence for with that Which occurs naturally and so if we if we look at the sticks and we investigate and we see You know padding symbols from a tail and claws and a structure inside of it that at home We can begin to infer even without the presence of an actual beaver that this is more likely a beaver dam And through more investigation we can demonstrate that it is in fact a beaver dam We can look at the way the the sticks are chewed and everything else plus we can see beavers at some point That's how you tell the difference between two things that look similar. So if I have a rock that is From the right angle looks like a person's face or profile and one that And another one that looks like somebody's profile. How do I tell which one's a sculpture and which one is just natural Use your brain Well, use your brain is not a particularly Robust response to that because use your brain. How? Uh, it's called common sense. No, it's not called common sense That is science is not common sense and investigation is not common sense. This is this is the thing If you can't just go use your common sense your common sense Needs to be trained and it needs to be trained by good information Good models good evidence good heuristics It's not just something that happens. That's what's wrong is that your common sense has been mistrained And it begins by assuming that there must be a god That or therefore that god is judge and you are going to be guilty under that god I never assumed anything Really? Yeah, absolutely. I intuitively knew there was a creator because I saw creation I I knew god demanded moral responsibility I repented of my sins and came to know the lord and I've known the lord For 48 years. I've known him closer than I know my own wife So when you say there's no evidence Of god's existence when you say, uh, I can't believe in I don't believe in god because there's no evidence All you need to do is obey the gospel. That's the that's the what I throw down in front of you the borderline Just repent of your sins and confess and forsake them Say I blew it the first time lord god, please forgive my sins wash me clean and god promises to reveal himself to you You remember the infusions? He'll open the eyes of your understanding take you out of darkness and so if I've done that before And it didn't take what why not Because you didn't really repent. Obviously. Oh, so once again, you're going to pretend See your your entire model is that you cannot be wrong So when I say Hey, I did that I repented I you know and I was convinced that god save I felt what I thought was a holy spirit I I and for years and years and years But now you you're going to say that because I have fallen away. It must not have been true Obviously Okay, obviously. Well that that ladies and gentlemen is where common sense gets you Unfortunately I don't base things on common sense as much as evidence because common sense can be wrong about a lot of things What are you familiar with the parable of the soar aren't you? Yes Remember the stony ground hero receives the world with joy and when a time of tribulation temptation persecution comes He falls away for the word sake and so When jesus is speaking of true and false conversion He's saying the church is full of goats among the sheep foolish virgins among the wise bad fish among the good And they're going to be sorted out on judgment day And so there are plenty people within the church who aren't converted There are plenty people out in the world that had a false conversion and you're one of them and my heart breaks for you And and ma I just care about you. I'm not trying to win a debate.  I don't want to be nice then if you'd stop making accusations about what I what happened and what I actually Apologize for the offense, of course, but I've got it. You're not causing a no no right right the offense You can tell me all day long. You don't think I was a real christian You think I was a false convert none of that offends me What offends me is someone agreeing to come in and discuss something and then the only thing they do is say that I'm Creating straw men and then they go on to make a bunch of assertions provide zero evidence and zero argument It was just hey, I believe that you might as well have come in and said hey I believe That satan is the good one and satan has a bunch of rules for you And if you don't pay attention to me and give your life over to satan um You're going to wind up in a terrible terrible situation at some point Or you believe that aliens do in fact visit the earth and that they have a list of of who they're going to abduct and replace Uh with with replicants And that i'm next on their list and you sincerely believe this and all I have to do is listen to you When you say all I have to do Is do what the gospel says now that passage Where we picked from from different books from matthew 19 Um The person comes up and says what good thing must I do to get eternal life and jesus depending on what I don't know Do you have a preferred version of the bible? Whatever, okay, whatever. Well, I mean because it's different because like in the niv It it would say why do you ask me about that which is good?  Sorry say with the king james so there's no confusion Okay, but in any case in the king james where it's like hey, why do you call me good? Um, there's only one that's good Which is kind of strange because you know, we're we're still in this notion where jesus is supposedly god and that he's the only You know air quotes human that's ever been perfect. And so It would it would be kind of strange to say why would you call me good? But maybe jesus is trying to teach this person something um And then he says well what must I do and he says in order to have eternal life You must keep the commandments and then he specifically asked which commandments And jesus doesn't say all of them and he doesn't say Uh, I'm the lord. Thank god Love the lord with all your heart. But you know that know that he says, you know, don't murder Don't do adultery don't steal don't perjure honor your parents love your neighbor um And the guy's like i've done all that and he said ah, but if you want to be perfect Sell all your belongings give the way to the poor and then come and follow me Now that is supposedly from jesus's own mouth What one must do to be saved right? right so I'm supposed to sell online. Well, actually that's to be perfect to be good. I just need to keep the commandments No, no, there's an error here matt. If you noticed jesus added one other thing in there that most of us wouldn't he said Defraud not that's not one of the commandments. I believe the rich general who was rich fraud not 10 verse 17 and 18 He said defraud not he threw it in there with the commandments and I think that guy obtained his money by fraud It seems that way That's why I said go and sell all the goods you've got by fraud and give to the poor because we know you can't earn eternal life It's by grace you say through faith and sell all your goods give them poor that doesn't find everlasting life You can't earn god's favor must repent and just trust in jesus for by grace you say Through faith and all of yourselves and those commandments just bring the knowledge of sin. No one's kept all the commandments There they act as a mirror to show us we're sinners.   No mad. I'm not convinced. I have a relationship with my wife I have a relationship with my wife. You're convinced of it, right? Oh, I have a relationship with my wife and I don't know we're convincing anything But no, no, oh my gosh ray.  No Oh I have a relationship with her more Look to sam convince sounds ridiculous So someone could unconvince me out of my relationship with my wife And I have a relationship with god that I've had for 48 years. It's gonna take me through death I came in this world with nothing.  Don't I didn't say how how do I I said how could I could you how could you demonstrate to me that you have a relationship with your wife? If you come around here, it could be putting on an act. So I can't I can't do that I can't convince you Can show you a marriage certificate. It could be made up. You've got to have faith So I'm saying oh, no, no, no, I don't have to have faith I can look at so there's a lot of things that somebody could do like I'm no longer married But when I was married I could easily convince anybody You know who's not You know somehow deficient that I am in fact married and have a relationship with my wife We lived together for a decade nearly to do that So a relationship is defined as two people Interacting in some way jointly for some period of time I can have good relationships. I can have bad relationships But the fact that my wife and I got married got a marriage certificate filed it with the the government It is there as an official documented Represented ourselves as married live together and entertained people other people interacted with this There's a mountain of evidence that I had a relationship with my wife Not if I say I don't believe any of it just nullifies it all for me like what you do Yes, and this is why I said I could demonstrate to anybody who didn't have some defect You can't so you can't just say I'm not going to believe it. That's what you do No, it's not. This is the great lie that you tell all the time I'm trying to show I'm trying to show that there's a fundamental difference Between the evidence you can provide for a relationship with your wife and a relationship with a god The relationship with a wife you could easily demonstrate to me And I think that you absolutely know that you like all you had to do is say here's my wife And I would take your word for it. Yeah, I have you have faith. No, I would have confidence based on evidence Confidence is not faith faith is the excuse people get for believing something when they don't have a good reason If you have a good reason you give it. It's not true trust and confidence are the same thing Give me give me three. So let's say let's say that I said ray. I don't believe you're married What are the first three things you would do to try to prove to anybody that you were married? I wouldn't bother Okay So if you're not going to be an honest interlocutor, I don't know what to do May I can show you the marriage certificate, but if you didn't believe it That's not that's not the point ray stop pretending that you can read my mind and just answer the question If someone came up to you and said please prove to me that you are married What what's like just three things that you would try to you show my marriage certificate And it's about it You wouldn't introduce them to your wife and have them vouch for you as well Oh, right. So this is my wife's suit. They got to believe that And then if if you say you're in a relationship with sue and sue says she's in a relationship with you You don't think that would be convincing to almost everybody in the world Almost some people might say Can you do any of those two things for god? Yes Where's the where's the certificate of your relationship with god structures That no no no those scriptures existed before you that cannot be it cannot be a document that shows your relationship with god Whoever calls upon the name of the lord shall be saved That's open. That's universal the whole of humanity I've called upon the name of the lord the same lord that you called upon the gospel truth matt So so you can't provide a certificate of your relationship and god won't vouch for you to me So What's the vouch for me to you Well, your wife would You might I I don't so this is this is like it's like I come up with a hypothetical to expose that There's a difference between what you can demonstrate between your relationship with your wife and your relationship with god Because you try just to put them on the same footing You're not happy that I say you're convinced. So You have a relationship with god. Does he talk to you? Yes, rose were daily We can we can keep going with this just to let you know that at the same time If we want to redirect it back to the gospel, but I'm flexible to where I know that this is Tied or weaved in with the gospel. So it's up to you guys. I'll defer to you guys as the speakers Well, I just kind of wanted to see if I can finish this last thought, but I'm pretty sure I know where it's going Uh So But you don't hear like hear god's voice and he doesn't say hey, you should tell matt this Okay, so I start hearing physical voices. I see a therapist I'm not I wasn't trying to go down that root ray.  Tell the difference. Here's ray who got a message from god through scripture And here's john who thinks he got a message from god through scripture and i'm sitting on the outside How can I tell the difference between them which one's right to yourself search the scriptures and veers the brains and see if these things are So that's all that that begins with the assumption that the scriptures are true The if the question is are the scriptures true you can't begin with an assumption that they're true Just need faith of the grain of a must of mustard seed That's all just start reading with a humble heart and say god, please teach him through your work But faith isn't evidence faith is not If so I could have faith that the Quran is true, right, but that doesn't mean it's true That's right So how can I know that the scripture that you're pointing to is actually true you can't say faith Can't tell me what I can't say just to obey the gospel put the cart before the horse Let me just explain what that means if you put the horse before the cart You're not going anywhere. I'm not trying to convince you to buy that's exactly how carts and horses work You've got it backwards. I'll let you rethink that horse before the cart the carts pulled by the horse Obey the gospel and the scriptures will come come make sense to you Yeah, so what you're saying is you have to believe before you're going to get any sort of evidence No, repent and trust Christ. I did that Yeah, I didn't say anything to that because you get upset What I get upset about is when you're talking about things that aren't relevant like what you think is in my head Because you're really really wrong And and that's it's great because there's no way to demonstrate it Just like there's no way for you to demonstrate the truth of your Conviction that there is a god or that god is the the the lawgiver or a judge of the universe or that the scriptures are true You just take it on faith which you said so. Well, I can't do that. I won't do that. It's not a sound epistemology It's not a pathway to truth You don't even care what the truth is because when I ask questions that are designed to expose a methodology to get to the truth You just smile and refuse. I don't need to prove anything to you. Well, congratulations. You haven't I'm ready James And James you said uh, stay with the gospel and I've tried the best I could to stay with the gospel because I know the gospel is the power of god the salvation And it's the gospel that matt needs to hear to see his need of god's forgiveness And that's why I try to open up those commandments to It's weird that you think I haven't heard it repeatedly. That's right You've got a heart and heart and I'm in prayer and it'll soften it up Yeah, well Matt, I just know a hardened heart than a hardened brain. Yeah, matt. I want to close by saying Um, I really uh, I'm honored that you spoke to me Um, when friends said don't do it because I'll preach They still did it anyway, and I really appreciate you taking the time to listen to what I have to say All right Gotcha, and with that I want to say thanks to our guests. Don't worry. We're going to q&a So hang on tight folks. I want to remind you that I have put their links in the description So that way if you're listening and you're like, hmm, I like that You can hear plenty more by clicking those links and also want to let you know I forgot to announce We are moving to podcast in addition to youtube So it's going to take a couple of days. We have already started the process But just for the processing to occur it'll take a little bit But just want to let you know these will be available to everybody So we originally had a different idea where we had it basically through patreon But now we said you know what we're going to just go public with it Anybody is and we appreciate everybody who's asked before and been patient as it's been a while before we got to that And so with that we will jump into these questions Want to say thanks so much everybody for your questions If case you didn't see it in the live chat any new questions from The point on in which I mentioned it in the live chat We may not get to those new questions just because we do want to respect the time of the debaters and with that First up logical plausible probable. Thanks for your super chat said After show will kick off right after the debate apparently they're having an after show. Hope it goes well Kakarot. We always love this There's nothing better than a good old debate challenge. They said ray. Would you like to debate me on evolution? Yeah, I'd love to talk about evolution Really interesting. Well, we can maybe maybe hear folks. Who knows tiffani bear. Thanks for your super chat said James thanks for making this happen big shout out to ray who is an awesome guy praying for your ministry ray Got a fan out there and thanks for your kind words tiffani. It's honestly I appreciate you folks so much. That's honestly doing this channel is so fun for me And so I just appreciate you all making it fun and at the mar. Thanks for your super chat If you had a question to attach, let me know in the chat Jg. Thanks for your super chat said let's see I'm confused by this unless you guys Maybe ray or mad if you recognize what verse this person might be trying to allude to jg. Thanks for your super chat said ray should Ray should take the surprising stance that the gospel does not Make sense since the bible says that itself The only thing I can think of is maybe they're of maybe they're trying to allude to An interpretation of the verse that says that the gospel is a a stumbling block, but i'm not sure The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those that perish and that are perishing Gotcha and BT dubs, thanks for your super chat who said Matt what would your emoji be if there is no soda can that's right. We do you know there's no diet coke tonight matt Is there a diet coke? We're not seeing No, I've got iced tea gotcha Diet coke's my favorite and do you want a banana? I've got bananas Next up scott duke. Thanks for your super chat said love this debate Keep up the great work modern day debate. Please have ray introduce us to his dog Well exciting. We'd love to get to see do you still have your dog in the in the room? Yeah, same. Come with me. Yeah No, he doesn't want to count No problem. Kevin gilfao. Thanks for your super chat said For ray, would you address the problem of evil with a triomni god? i.e A god that allows bone cancer in children. He created satan knowing what satan would do Isn't god responsible for this and how can you serve this unjust god? Yeah, I think it's interesting that sinful man stands a model judgment over almighty god Instead of just looking at bone cancer in kids.  What about earthquakes and famines and hurricanes and tornadoes and tsunamis and all the pain and suffering all those things do is Substantiate the truth of what scripture says it says we live in a fallen creation So suffering disease pain and death Substantiate what the bible actually says the whole of creation groans and travail waiting for manifestation of god And so don't use those as excuses to reject god see them as very reasons to accept what the word of god says Fallen creation all those things of evidence and what the bible says is true Yeah, I'd like to point out that the question was Basically, hey, how do you reconcile this with this and raise response was what about ism? Let's look at all these other things too. Why aren't you objecting to those that was not even remotely in the ballpark Of addressing the actual subject Is the habit for today evidently? Yeah Well, let's see we'll go to the next one and unless uh, let's see We do have a we're gonna try to speed through these so robert luscom Thanks for your super chat said matt people say I look a lot like you do you find it difficult being such a sexy beast? Yes, thank you very much Another guest said named religion is bs Can guess what side they're signing on today said hey james love the debate monday My comment is for matt If we got paired in a tag team debate, I'd be so excited. I'd lose control of my entire existence You have a fan out there matt. That's uh anamorphic. We won't be in a tag debate then Anamorphic mind. These are super chat said question for ray Why after debating this for thousands of years? Are we no closer to agreeing which god is real or even if there are any gods at all? That's a great question the first of the ten commandments answers that question. There's only one creator Hindus have something like 350 million gods man Takes great joy in creating a gardener's own image Richard Dawkins does that he's actually an idolater He's created a gardener's own image an offensive angry god that he's pulled from the old testament and structured To make a monster and he says if that's your god, I don't believe in it But the god that Richard Dawkins doesn't believe in doesn't exist He's a figment of his imagination the place of imagery and I was an idolater before I was a christian I made I made up a god to suit myself remember the first of the ten commandments I am the lord your god. You shall have no other gods before me Don't make up a false god, which is what humanity leans to Because if you if you make up your own god you it doesn't have a moral dictate You can do what you want when you create a garden your own image Gotcha, thank you and ray another question for you this one from robert lescombe who said Do you believe that god knew jeffrey dommer before he was born and knew that he would do What he did and yet created him anyway, would that mean god would be just as responsible for jeffrey dommer's actions Of course not god wasn't responsible for hitler's actions too and hitler did worse than what jeffrey dommer did Responsible for 11 million deaths because of what he did Every man will give an account of himself to god and if we want to see Justice time we rejoice that it's going to happen on the day of judgment when every secret thing that's ever been committed Is going to be brought into judgment by god and that's why we need a savior because you and i Have sinned against god our sins are huge in the eyes of god enough to provoke the death sentence That's how serious god is when it comes to sin The problem with that answer is that ray's already rebutted it on his own by acknowledging that god created the universe could have created it differently which means god is in fact responsible for hitler because it could have created a universe where that didn't happen That's a silly scenario. It's i'm sorry that you find logic silly If you'd stop finding logic if you'd stop finding logical arguments that don't have fallacies and then silly You might make some progress here. Not logical. That's insane.  So We do have a question for matt. We have smoky saint. Thanks for your super chat said matt a wealthy man found hundred or founded Hundreds of orphanages in this theoretical example They say should he be morally excused for murdering one of the children in his care because he did so much good In founding 100 orphanages. No Gotcha, thanks so much and ronald madonka. Thanks for your super chat said for ray Is it illegal or immoral for someone to enter another person's hotel room without their knowledge? Is it illegal? I don't know. Yeah, i'm confused by that one Did you guys talk about that? I don't remember that logical plausible probable Thanks for your super chat said share your opinion open mic after show So and you if you couldn't folks whether you be on the christian Position or whether you come from the atheist position regardless if you have an after show Let us know we can put it in the description for you and the real lock. Thanks for your super chat said Hey ray black lives matter. My atheist butt has been marching for that I'm confused. I don't remember that came up either Yeah, of course black lives matter Thanks for that and matthew j disco Thanks for your super chat. I don't I'm not sure what that says, but we might come back to it martin howie. Thanks for your super chat Let's see. So let's see apparently also from new zealand and just kind of jumping over a couple to Ronald bedonka. Thanks for your other super chat said ray. Where was the declaration of independence signed? at the bottom Thanks for next blue hair and thanks for your super chat said ray. Have you knowingly lied since becoming saved? I don't think so. I may have unwittingly, but i'll try to speak the truth and love always Gotcha and kevin gilfow. Thanks for your super chat said if god is just and morally right Why hasn't he written black lives matter on everyone's heart instead of being the absentee father figure? Allowing his children to be victims of systemic racism in the u.s I don't think we should say that everybody is god's child the bible says that we're children of the devil satan's our father He's the god of this world small g and it's only when we're born again that we come into god's family and can call god our father So all humanity is not god's children Gotcha and logical plausible probable. Thanks for your super chat You bet So I want to make sure I understood right correctly when he got to all men are all all men are not god's children um You're by that you're meaning that not all are to be saved, but No, god care about all of them They're not his children with children of the devil the bible makes that clear with children of disobedience and rebellion to god Using his name as a cuss word and those are the ones that god doesn't care about He cares about them. He loves them. That's all I asked.  It's nothing to do with free will. It's called foreknowledge I didn't say the word free will I said god knew So he could have created just all those people already in heaven with him. No God couldn't do that. He didn't I I didn't say he did. I said he could have could he or could he or could he not done it He could do anything he wants You know that No, I don't know that that's why i'm asking because I don't know that there is a god I don't know what your particular model of a god is With god nothing is impossible that opens every door. Okay Next up. Thanks for your super chat logical plausible probable things They said come to the after show and we'll link that in the description if they give it to us next Dallas Wade thanks for your super chat said hi ray. We had a zoom call recently and I really enjoyed it My question for you is how are your arguments not moralistic fallacies? Namely that something should be uh, they're saying that Should be so does not equal it is so I think I'm not trying to I'm trying to figure out if they're trying to think of the is ought problem Or if they're referring to something else. I can't understand the question either We uh, Dallas Wade. Let me know if I if I butchered that. Sorry if I it was my fault the blazing wizard pope Thanks for your super chat said let's see Alan Bupri Asked ray. What's a dogma? a dogma Yeah Gotcha, and thanks for your super chat from matt The god said Let's see Matt we share the same name and same worldview. Are we lost brothers? You got another fan out there and then thanks for your super chat Happy dude says my new favorite channel. This is epic. Well all credit to the speakers They've made this fun and I have it's honestly a blast because of the speakers. So let's see Bertie Brits, thanks for your super chat said Let's see. I am a christian and logical plausible probable. Thanks for your super chat said open mic after show come share your Opinions you bet and chase clements. Thanks for your super chat said ray. Do you think it's a problem that quote christians? Unquote can't tell if they're a quote true Unquote christian or not even if their belief is sincere Well, sincerely must be covered with truth and the bible says you'll know your past from death to life because you love the brethren You'll know your past from death to life because certain things happen the scriptures speak of Things that accompany salvation So you can be assured of everlasting life if you bear fruit the fruit of righteousness the fruit of praise the fruit of Thanksgiving fruit of repentance And so just examine yourself and say if you're in faith and if there's a hypocrisy in your life You need to re-examine yourself and and make a calling election sure because there are plenty of people who are pretenders Fake christians. Jesus warned on the day of judgment. No cry out to him lord lord And he'll say depart me worker of lawlessness. I never knew you There are people who call themselves christians but never depart from iniquity. So make sure you're genuine That you're you're coupling truth along with sincerity and then read the word daily and let the word read you Because if anything will keep you from the scriptures that's sent in your heart Gotcha and patreon question from brian stevens. Thanks so much said an internal critique shows that the god of the bible can send people Strong delusions. How can anyone know god isn't currently sending them a strong delusion? Well, the strong delusion scriptures came upon those who deliberately chose to reject the truth and believe a lie And says therefore god gives them over to a reprobate mind If they want to be unclean gods says you can have uncleanness But you'll have what comes with it, you know sin is incredibly pleasurable pornography is incredibly pleasurable But whenever sinners mentioned in scriptures always coupled or married to death The wages of sin is death the soul that sins it shall die Last brings for sin sin. What's conceived brings forth death So always remember when sin offers its allurement when it promises you pleasure It always comes with a grim reaper in the other hand Gotcha and spart 344. Thanks for your patreon question said for both If cane owes james x amount of dollars and continuously misses his debt payments And I pay his debt. How does this change the fact that cane cannot be trusted to pay his debt? I don't know how to answer that man, do you want to answer that it doesn't Okay, gotcha. I think that they're maybe saying Oh, I know what they're saying So there's there's two things about forgiveness of debt one is that you no longer owe it But the second issue is about whether what is your what is your character? What is the foundational problem?  So you're no longer, you know in the still wronged category But the person who broke your window is still running around breaking windows. It doesn't solve anything was the point Oh, that's referring to the hypocrite who continues in sin and deceives himself a genuine believer will turn from sin perpetually No, it's it's referring to the problem with substitutionary atonement in the first place Next up thanks for your super chat brian steven says ray. How many laws of thermodynamics are there? Matt you can tell me that one. I think there's four I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get in that Paul you're the one that brought up thermodynamics without knowing the difference between a closed and open system. So you don't know I don't I don't care for Is it four good? Yeah, I think so. Paul rimmer. Thanks for your super chat said why won't ray simply ask matt what he does believe Matt what do you believe? With regard to what? is like My only guess is that let's see. I think I think he's referencing every time ray would just tell me what's What's in my head or make an accusation about what's in my head. So it's like, hey Do are am I convinced that a god exists? My answer is no, I'm not convinced that a god exists Whether or not ray believes that I'm not sure what I can do. He keeps saying that I know that a god exists when I don't So if if he if he cared about the thing is He thinks he can't be wrong. So if my answer disagrees with him You can't say things about me like that. I'm all right. Is it is it possible that you are wrong about god It's impossible for god to be wrong and he's revealed himself Is it possible for you to be wrong about god? Of course, but it's impossible for god to be wrong about himself and he's revealed himself in his work He's the creation of the universe revealed it to you To millions So but can you be wrong about that? I can be wrong about a lot of things. Can you be wrong that god has revealed himself to you God will reveal himself to whoever repents and trusts in christ. How could I call god a liar?  I don't think god exists Can you be wrong about whether or not god has revealed himself to you about four times? No, you've danced around it every time Okay, were you married? Yes, can you be wrong about that? Um, could I be wrong about that? No Now first of all, let me let me clarify that's not the same as asserting absolute certainty I'm doing it within the context of knowledge within the world. Well, that's what I'm doing Okay, the problem is that you can't demonstrate that your god exists and I can demonstrate that I was married Yes, you do if you care at all to convince me that you're correct. You have to do that That's what the burden of proof is. No Yeah, you don't understand it I don't understand the burden of proof.  I don't need to give you a burden of proof God has given light to are you here? God has given light to every man. You know that god exists. I do not I do not We have to agree to disagree I love that when we're sitting here trying to figure out how you could possibly demonstrate the truth of your conviction All you do is come back to tell me that I know you're right, which is false. It's not true I don't know that you're right. This is what I'm saying. God has given light to every man That includes you may yes, you believe that but whether or not it's true is a separate issue We want to next grab a next question Jeep Zeichen 007. Thanks for your super chat said this is confusing to me But maybe you guys will be able to know what they mean.  Thanks for your super chat said matt next time someone convinces you to debate Ray Let's see They said are are you sure you'll do it? Let's see I hope that this has been a fun time for both of you And Well Next Next up hunter bailey. Thanks for your super chat said it How do you think that that the jews became christian? Or that the jews who became christian reconciled the atonement of christ when their life depended on consistency Ray would you please respond to so they started asking matt How you think that the jews who became christian reconciled the atonement of christ With their life depended on consistency I don't know the meaning of that question. Perhaps matt can understand what they're trying to say So I I'm not going to pretend that I that I fully understand the question, but it seems that they're asking First of all you could ask those jews because rather than have me try to read their mind But what I will say is that it's possible for people to become convinced of something um for bad reasons Whether it's in their best interest or in opposition to their best interest Gotcha and next up. Thanks for your super chat from tiffani bear who said let's see Don't mind the mockers in the live chat Quote blessed are you when people insult you persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me Rejoice and be glad because great is your reward in heaven Thanks for that. Edward. Oh rick. Thanks for your super chat said ray if this debate stops That means god exists if this debate doesn't stop does that mean god doesn't exist Can you reconcile your apples absolutist position? No, um, but I would like to say that those atheists that are watching Um, there's a video we put up yesterday. It's free on youtube. It's called richard dawkins crushes banana man And it's the full story of uh, what happened with the whole banana man thing That's why we talked about bananas before so it's one take the opportunity. It's free Richard organs crushes banana man, which is me You got it and happy dude. Thanks for your super chat said best debate ever her previous like all credit to the speakers I absolutely thrilling today and ken patin. Thanks for your super chat Which was a super sticker. So do want to take a moment We're going to read through more questions, but want to remind you as we have I would say Maybe a little shy of half an hour We do want to remind you our guests are linked in the description in case you just arrived and with that Jumping into the next one converse contender. Thanks for your super chat said best channel on youtube. Thanks a lot converse Especially appreciate all your help buddy dean meadows. Thanks for your super chat said ray I'm a christian and I do struggle to see how I can accept the gospels without first investigating Would we accept the revolutionary war took place without investigating whether or not there is data to support it That's a good question. I wasn't converted by the gospels. I wasn't converted by the bible. I was converted by the power of god When I came to christ god opened up my understanding He took me out of darkness and delight. He made me a brand new creature For 22 years as an odd christian. I never thought about god for two seconds seriously For the last 48 years there's hardly been two seconds when I haven't thought about god because it's so Transforming when you're born again When that happens the bible will come alive and until that time If you read scriptures with a proud heart you're like a man who tries to read a book in the dark nothing will happen You first need the new birth and then the gospels will come alive to you And they harmonize perfectly by the way all these people that say there's not how many of the gospels I don't know what they're talking about Gotcha and anthony rodin asks both speakers why this debate? I think they're asking why have you come to this debate? Sure somebody asked me if I because once upon a time I said I wouldn't bother debating gray again because he said During the one debate that we did on a christian radio station in minneapolis st Paul that he's not interested in debate. He's not interested in proving anything He just loves me and wants to make sure I go to heaven. So he was there to preach and I was more interested in debate I've shifted to where I'm still doing debates, but I want to have discussions So it's not like 10 minutes here five minutes here 10 minutes here five minutes here It's you state your case I state my case and then we discuss it openly with a moderator to make sure somebody doesn't get stomped on I'm open to having those kind of discussions with a lot of people and so this seemed like Worth giving it one more try Well, that's really great. I'm here because I love met care about restency to me Nothing's changed since this first our first chair and I love those unsaved people That's what the bible calls non christians unsaved that are watching today And I hope they'll think seriously about their eternal salvation because there's nothing more important Gotcha and edward era elrich Says ray what makes you more correct than any other religion that claims to be the one true religion Every other religion has a book that says Something to that effect Well, that's a really good question to one that comes up regularly If you study all the great religions and when I say great, I mean large like islam and buddhism hinduism You'll find they're all what's called works righteousness religions They think they can earn eternal life by doing things like good works and fasting and praying and facing mecca and sitting on hard pews or whatever Bible changes everything when the moral law comes and it paints us as guilty criminals standing before a holy god Whose judgment is waiting to come upon us. So anything we offer the judge of the universe That's what the bible calls god Is not good works or religious works is actually an attempt to bribe the judge of the universe and the bible says The sacrifice of the wicked or bribery is an abomination before earthly judge Won't be bride if he's a good judge and god will not be bride on judgment day The only thing that can save us is not how good religious works But it's the mercy of the judge and that's what god expressed in christ You know atheists have that little thing where god Uh sacrificed himself to himself. No, that's just not true. The bible says god was in christ Reconciling the world to himself. God was manifest in the flesh and says a body you've prepared for me And god filled that body as a hand fills a glove and this perfect sinless man gave his life as a sacrifice For the sin of the world and that means the judge because of the sacrifice can dismiss our case He can legally take the death sentence off us and let us live forever Because of what jesus did on the cross through his death and resurrection What an incredible thing, you know, here's another thing. It probably might make me angry, but I gotta say it every single human being is tormented or haunted by the fear of death some admit it Some don't but we know we're gonna die and there's something in us that says Oh, I don't want to die because life is precious And god is offering a everlasting life through the gospel.  I should say appreciate it and andreas elda Thanks for your super chat said to matt. I love the beaver dam analogy Okay, thanks Roy stagall, thanks for your super chat said Shut up and take my money james. Appreciate that support roey edward l rick.  Thanks for your super chat said ray you do sinners deserve unending torment Um The bible says sinners will be damned everything we love in this life will be ripped from us We enjoy the pleasures of sex and And love and laughter and friends and family and all these fruits and the beauty of the blue sky and the warmth of the sun And the sound of birds and puppies and kittens All those things are gifts from god and god says i'm gonna take those gifts from you And i'm gonna give you your just dessert god's gonna do that Which is right on the day of judgment and i trust him i love what charles spurger the great preacher said He says faith may swim. We're reason we're reason may only pedal when i can't work out something I just trust god and he'll bring it to pass. He'll do what he should gosh, and thanks x aka hello kitty Who sent a sticker saying game over Next logical plausible probable. Thanks for your super chat who said james. Please give a shout out for our after show Logical plausible probable is their after show I will put that link in the description folks and they said open mic to share what you think about this debate Who won and who had the best zingers? Gotcha. Thanks for that and next up jungle jargon. Thanks for your super chat said matt Can or james can you ask matt why he stands behind atheism when atheism can't say what is And that makes no sense Do we really need ready to ask me that? Um, I mean you literally put a question in and paid for the question to be asking you So ray, please ask me what this listener would like you to ask me. Oh, no They they asked uh, I might have I might have uh Didn't get a lot of sleep last night if I said ray. I meant to say uh james ask me Why he stands behind atheism when atheism can't say what is And that makes no sense. I don't fully understand myself.  It's not a worldview. It's not a proposition It is simply the label that we put on At a minimum someone who isn't convinced that a god exists and at a maximum someone who is convinced that no gods exist I don't stand behind it And whether or not atheism can tell me anything is irrelevant because I have other things that tell me about stuff I have science and science methodologies, which tell me about things I have logic and reason and understanding fallacies and understanding how to construct an argument and sound epistemology Those are the things that I stand behind I don't stand behind atheism if somebody convinces me that a god exists I'm no longer an atheist, but I'm still a humanist. I'm still a sensible rational person who values logic and evidence Gotcha, and thanks so much for your super chat from bruce wane. Thanks for your super sticker. I should say tons of mice let's see Thanks for your super chat said ray. When was the last time that you ate a banana Oh, I eat them regularly for years. I couldn't eat them as you'll see when you watch that video we put up called Richard Dawkins Crushes banana man. It's very interesting and it gives the whole story. You got it and the wumble The the wumble biter. Thanks for your super chat said is ray the arbiter of god's truth or his god God's the arbiter of truth, but he's entrusted the gospel to whoever wants to spread it That the the great commissioners given to every christian go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature So that's our commission I'm no expert. I just know god.  Thanks for your super chat who said hit the like button you heathens Okay, got you and uh, let's see next up Got oh, okay. We got that one cry. Thanks for your super chat said. Hey ray How do you account that the basis for your belief in the resurrection is so controversial throughout the gospels? And how do you account for the fact that mark was edited to add an ending? I don't believe the resurrection because the gospels tell me jesus wrote from the dead I believe the resurrection took place because the risen living christ manifested himself to me And to anyone who repent and trust the savior. Let me share john 14 20 Jesus said he that has my commandments and keeps him here does it loves me and he that loves me We love by my father. I too will love him and will reveal myself to him So there's the gauntlet just repent trust in the savior confess and forsake your sins Trust in him is your sin bearer and you'll know the truth true who make you free your past from death to life You've got god's promise on it and god cannot lie. It's impossible for god to lie Gotcha the the problem is that while All of that is based on just an assertion because if somebody Trust the gospel puts their faith in god is to the best of their ability and then Doesn't wind up a believer ray and his ilk will just write them off Well, you hardened your heart. You had something wrong. You didn't do it, right? There's no Basically, this is what I mean when rays set up a model or not he didn't set it up other people set it up So that it can't be wrong because if in fact you do the things that he says you need to do to be saved and You don't become convinced and you're not a believer Well, you did something wrong because god can't be wrong and that is a a heads. I win tails you lose scenario That's right.  You don't want to lose your soul Uh, I don't even have a soul. You should do there's a life in you that's speaking to me now That's your soul. You have a lot of soul That's oxygen and air that i'm compressing out of my lungs across my vocal cords with my mouths making a shape I'm doing this because my brain and when my brain is dead Everything that makes me me all of the available evidence points to the fact that it ends Not only that all of the things that make me me can be altered while i'm still alive through brain damage There's zero evidence for a soul I was talking to a professor at ucla peter nomax and he says I don't believe in the soul I said, did you know the bible uses the word soul and life synonymously? He says, oh, I believe in the soul then The soul is your life within your body when matt was four years old. He didn't look like he did to does today He's a mature man today But when he was four He was still the same soul or the same personality that he is today and that's what's going to pass on when he dies That's why he'll be brain dead when he dies because the life is passed on and he's going to stand before god And i want to see him say not lost eternity And thanks for your super chat from insect facet says matt I think that methodological naturalism strongly implies functional naturalism. Am I wrong? No, I think it strongly implies that it's just that you know, it's like correlation isn't causation So the fact that methodological naturalism as a method limits what we can investigate It's not so much that methodological naturalism implies naturalism. It's that As we keep finding explanations That are consistent with methodological naturalism. It becomes Far more difficult to make a case for something beyond naturalism. I'm still open to the possibility anybody could could demonstrate at any time But yeah, I generally agree next up anamorphic mind. Thanks for your super chat asked matt Why do you think it is that theists use the arguments that they use? Because they're convincing Because so if you go to someone and you say you know that you've done bad things That's true for probably everybody There are people without a conscience and you know, there are people with certain conditions But by and large we've all done bad things the issue here is that Ray's model has Bad things are defined by a god who is the judge and the arbiter and the creator and the The one able to intervene on your behalf My view of whether or not things are bad are not based on a book a god Or any of those it is about evaluating the consequences of the actions We take with regard to the goal of a better world and while that's not completely defined there We can't sit around and pretend that we don't know some things like Oh, i'm gonna break my own rule, but we're not gonna get into it Uh, I would think that ray and I would both agree that owning other people as property is immoral, right? Yeah, okay Gotcha, and thanks for your super chat from Luke Rappaport. Let's see They said matt What do you think about Ray's question about the origin of the universe? How can you have a worldview that doesn't? For the origin doesn't have an explanation for the origin of the world itself So here's the thing that That question is bizarre. How can you have a worldview that doesn't account for the origin? so a worldview Shouldn't be accepted just because it offers some potential explanation for everything A worldview should be accepted for offering Correct and likely correct explanations for things the fact that my worldview doesn't have an explanation for x Doesn't mean that my worldview is flawed As long as my worldview is open to an explanation for x that is consistent with good standards of evidence So I don't know why there's something rather than nothing. Maybe it couldn't have been any other way Maybe there's some agent who intervened. Maybe there's some other explanation. How Absolutely arrogant would it be to say I have a worldview and it provides me an explanation for everything That's just that's laziness. That's somebody who doesn't care about the truth They're just really uncomfortable with not being able to acknowledge when they're wrong. Who says that? Who says what? I have a worldview that gives an explanation for everything Does does your worldview include a god that knows everything? Yeah, then your worldview includes an explanation for everything. You just don't personally you just don't personally have those explanations You just trust that there's a god who does. Okay, I appreciate you're qualifying that Thank you next robert ursu. Thanks for your super chat said one person Does a good deed because god told them to another person Does the same good deed because they think it's the right thing to do Which person is more moral both answer this please and thank you The second one Well, god knows the motive. Why don't Gosh, the motive is included in the question And so han desuza. Thanks for your super chat said substitutionary tone. Maybe hang on james So This person asked a question that included everything in the question that you needed to assess it And instead of just answering you just said god knows but well, there's a reason I just get what you think Well, matt, here's the reason I did that. I was trying to get my dog over here and I didn't hear the question Okay, so I apologize for that So would that count as a lie? Well, it was I wasn't listening to the question. So you misrepresented that you had heard the question I provided an answer so I wouldn't say that's a lie, right? No, god knows and what's wrong with the lying explained to me what's wrong with the lie Well, I'm not I'm not saying that there's anything necessarily wrong with lying in all circumstances What I'm talking about is you seem to have you honestly admitted that you misrepresented the truth a moment ago No, god knows everything you I told you he's omniscient But he asked about your thoughts and you didn't hear the question The mode god knows the motive of every single person if you didn't hear the question Then how could you possibly answer that god knows the most calculated guess? I think that you're lying about not lying now. It would be really easy to just say, you know what?  Maybe I lied. Yeah. God's my judge Next up. Sohan D'Souza. Thanks for your super chat said substitutionary atonement is more like someone claiming to have Self-flage elated to pay your debt for blasphemy against the great fairy queen than it is to someone paying your speeding ticket backlog I don't know. I don't think that was a question. I think it was a statement Definitely. Yes for the the super chats will will allow people to make a statement as long as we give a chance for the speaker to Make a response it if you'd like I don't have anything to add Gotcha and insect facet. Thanks for your super chat said ray had your understanding about Any aspect of god ever changed throughout your lifetime? If so, what prompted the change? Oh, yeah, of course when I was a new christian my understanding of god was very very shallow and as I've studied his word I've got to understand the character of god more, but it's something that grows The mind of god is infinite. No man can understand god's mind I can hardly work at how my ipad works You know, I can call my my sister seven thousand miles away on my iphone and there's no wires. I still use it. So I Will have eternity to explore the mind of god Gotcha and luke rapaport. Thanks for your super chat said question for matt How do you explain info in dna? fine-tuning of the laws of physics and constants and the origin of consciousness from mindless matter I'm sorry I would ask you to read that question again, but I think we can summarize that question is please explain everything in science That may or may not have an explanation. So The thing that is perceived as information within dna is actually just chemicals interaction interacting with each other According to the laws of physics and then you want me to explain the laws of physics I don't know that they could have been any other way despite what some intelligent design proponents want to suggest And also i'm not a physicist and so Now you want me to also explain the rise of consciousness something that is A problem that we probably haven't had any solution from from some of the biggest experts sort of worked on it And so i'll just say I don't know Thanks Gotcha and next up. Thanks for your super chat from religion is bs Responding this is the one who said he'd go out of existence if he got to partner with you matt said matt my comment was tongue-in-cheek I'm a massive fan And jason news. Thanks for your super chat said mr. Comfort. How do you account for? Your epistemology or how you come to know things like what are the maybe the way or ways? Oh, I uh, I listen to other means teachings. I read books and I read in scriptures Thanks and anthony magnabasco Thanks for your super chat said ray if you eventually discovered to your satisfaction That you had no good evidence for god. Would you still strongly believed that god exists? That's in line with the question if I discovered my wife didn't exist Well, I stood be married to her. It's a ridiculous question doesn't make any sense at all What nathias don't realize is that our knowledge of god is not a belief not an intellectual belief But an experiential not experiential knowledge. We know god. This is eternal life They might know you the only true god in jesus christ and you have sent so I can't unknow god Gotcha and martin dugas. Thanks for your super chat if you have a question to attach to let me know otherwise Thanks for your support and jerry hotep or hotep. Thanks for your super chat said ray Aren't you in the clergy project? I'm not sure what that is. Is that like a ministry or I don't think I am Gotcha edward l rick. Thanks for your super chat said matt Yeah, this is the one that let's see. Let me read this and see if I can make sense of it The debate doesn't stop. Does that mean doesn't exist? So they said matt if the debate stops that means god exists If the debate doesn't stop does that mean god doesn't exist Please chime in Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna try to be as as kind of straightforward charitable on this as I can I think what they're suggesting is that Because the god proposition is ultimately unfalsifiable Demonstrating that a god exists would end all debate on the subject and then everybody would agree But if the debate never ends does that show that god doesn't exist? No, because it's an unfalsifiable proposition, which means there's no way to falsify it Which is why as long as there are people who are willing to accept unfalsifiable Claims that they don't have to support with evidence Then people will continue to believe the debate will continue Gotcha and thanks for your super chat from Joe famous Said for both does the christian gospel make sense. Uh anybody change your mind today? Never mind. Looks like they're on the same page and thanks for your super chat. We appreciate it We are we're getting into we can maybe do one or two more beyond that like heads up that I gave everybody that We're I'm so sorry folks. We won't be able to get to every single super chat And uh, we'll get to a few more since I gave that warning that we might not get to them So Edward l rick. Thanks for your super chat said Let's see We had that one already mistake not thanks for your super chat said ray Let's see Do you ever get exhausted of debates? I get exhausted in it, but not over anytime someone listens to what I have to say with a humble heart That thrills me beyond words just the other day. I was uh, Right in my bikes or a guy standing there and I said you want to do an interview on youtube And he came run up. He says yes, I do and he was very humbled very open to the gospel And that thrills my heart and and just want to give a little plug for our youtube channel It's just passed 123 million views And I think people love watching it because it's interesting to see what people believe about the afterlife because the question that starts off Almost every interviewer's do you think there's an afterlife and uh, most people do And uh, it's great when people open their heart and listen to the gospel It seems that what ray refers to as a humble heart. I would refer to as someone with an unskeptical mind Because all all i'm doing is it's nothing prideful or boastful. It is about evidence. It is about epistemology It is about how can you demonstrate the truth of what you say? And if you can't that's fine But you can't expect anybody reason to believe it now the existence of god is axiomatic That's why the bible says the fool has said in his heart. There is no Next uh, thanks for your super chat from Keith black said Ray if god hasn't shown up and made himself clear to me Shouldn't I assume that he doesn't care asking since you don't Like I don't they said they don't see the evidence Yeah, like I said the existence of god is axiomatic everybody has a light given to them by god The invisible things of him from the creation of the world clearly seem being understood by the things That are made the bible says whosoever calls upon the name of the lord shall be saved That's the promise of scripture If someone calls upon the name of the lord and nothing happens It's usually evidence they didn't trust and scriptures say He that comes to god must first believe that he exists And he's the water of those that diligently seek him for without faith it's impossible to please him most of our lives Are built on faith the reason we have the arms races because Nations don't trust each other when we get on a plane we trust pilots with our lives When adopter gives us pills and we take them without question. We're trusting allies to pharmaceutical companies When we go on to stop stop lights and stop at the lights, we're trusting our lives to lights when we step on the car brakes We're trusting the brakes We exercise trust everywhere while all these things can let us down But if you trust god he promises he'll never let you down He's able to save to the uttermost What is it from the god by him? Gotcha and thanks for your it's so when it comes to trusting doctors pilots lights, etc It's because we a have an understanding of how they work b We have regulatory intervention in order to assure that if something goes wrong There's some way to actually see For that and to make sure that you know, hey, we don't just allow anybody to build and sell a car There's you know, you want to make sure that you're putting people in those seats That's sort of trust that we have in pilots who are incredibly well trained Have to demonstrate competency and skill and fall underneath a whole bunch of regulations about how they what they can and can't do With their time that is to make increase the amount of safety as much as possible. It is to make our trust Proportional to the evidence supporting it. This is the exact opposite of what is the case with a god That's not true. It is true You can't you can't show me a god you can't show me a god certificate You can't show me evidence that shows that there's anything that this god can trust and every time you say god will do this It always comes with an asterisk which you don't include until I ask which is hey If I do this you said everybody who calls on the name of lord, shall be saved if I did that am I saved? Well, no, no, no, no, you might have done it wrong. You might have been false comfort You set up a no-lue scenario for god or somebody does That's not the same thing as confidence in Established evidence and people working towards a safer society I'll let you believe And it's right and I back it up by evidence Back it up by evidence and your belief is backed by your belief is backed up by just making assertions and then saying that's your belief Man, I'm right. That's exactly what you've accused me of saying through this whole interview The difference is that I demonstrated it with argument and evidence and you just make assertions if you if you don't think that I'm right Prove it I don't need to I know Because you think it's an axiom Just to uh, want to get to these these next questions appreciate it. Matthew steal these are the last ones we can get to and then we've got to let our guests go Thanks for your super chat. Matthew said ray. Is it possible for anyone christian or otherwise to judge whether god is just and good You don't need to you don't need to judge if god is just and good You trust that he is because he's without sin the bible says god is light and in them in him There is no darkness at all. That's a prerequisite for coming to christ You trust god you justify god and you can see what he says is true. Man is evil by nature We lock our doors. We lock our cars because we man We know that all around us there is danger because sin dwells in the heart of every human being Everything god says in his word is true. You can trust it You can throw yourself blindfolded and without reserve into his mighty hands because he's because he's faithfully promised That's my experience an experience of literally millions around the world Thank you and math you steal last question for the day. Thanks for your super chat said matt What are your thoughts on monism versus dualism? Well, there's there's not sufficient evidence for dualism and as a matter of fact when we talk about it it seems to be that What we lack is an understanding and the appropriate language to actually address what we're talking about um So i i'm not a dualist Gotcha and partially because i don't think the second thing is real You bet and want to say thanks so much everybody Want to say thanks so much for our mods. You do a terrific job. Thanks for helping us make this possible Thanks everybody just for hanging out watching just partying with us. It's always a great time and most of all Thanks so much for our guests who are linked in the description in case you'd like to hear more folks We really appreciate you both ray and matt. It's been a true pleasure to have you Thank you. James appreciate Thanks matt. Nice to see you again. You too, right? Absolutely and one last shout out as logical plausible probable is hosting an after show That's linked in the description if anybody wants to host another after show in addition We will link as many after shows as there are so with that want to say thanks so much for being with us today Everybody it's been a great time. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Take care folks