Absolutely fantastic. And this is why in the morning on that hashtag, which is why in the morning as well, art4244 underscore channel on the ground verified at Brian Soko 101. And by the way, we are also on threads. If you're not yet joined, threads matter. It's a lot of pressure, okay? But that's where you can find this as well. And remember to also check us out on TikTok art4244 channel personally is at Brian Soko 101. This is the first and also the last conversation of the day. And today's conversation is best in the spirit of what's going on in the country. How savvy are you? How do you understand your leadership? And especially when it comes to it being guided by the powerful constitution, right now we have the 2010 constitution, do you know about it? But the article 37 is the one that has been actually read a lot.  So of course expected again to continue tomorrow. And joining us live in studio with us, we have a powerful guest. She's an author, she's a lawyer, she's a founder, and she's written a powerful book that she definitely check it out and bites. She'll be telling us where you can find it. If maybe she's giving it for free, you could get it as a gift as well. So stay right here. Joining us live in studio with us once again is Sandra Ochoala. Good morning. Good morning. Nice to meet you. How are you feeling? Sorry? How are you feeling? I'm feeling good. I thought it would be colder this morning, but I guess because I was rushing through traffic. So I'm feeling warm. Is this a southern and green only that comes with, you know, being stuck on traffic and you know you have a meeting? Exactly. I was like, Jesus, hold it. I was like, we're half 15 minutes. Move, move, move. But you made it in time. Yes. You made it in time. Congrats. Thank you. So let's start from like, how did you become the person that you are today before we even get to your book and matters the constitution? Like what is your journey like? Are there parts that you definitely can share with us? I am a lawyer as you mentioned. My background is in law. I have degree in law from Moe University and a postgraduate diploma from the Kenya School of Law. And then I later on went for a master's degree in international studies. So I started my career in the civil society space and working with institutions and organizations that focus on governance and human rights. And my internship way back, a while back as we mentioned, it's been a couple of years was with the International Center for Transitional Justice. And I got introduced into the sector by wonderful, wonderful mentors along the way. So from ICTJ, as it was called, I moved to an institution called South Consulting. And as it happened, it was during the time when the country was going through the 2007, 2008 peace and reconciliation processes. And part of what you were doing was monitoring the implementation of what was called, I don't know if you remember that what they are Kofi Annan. The mediation situation that happened. Yes, the mediation situation. So there were agenda items that were green upon as the country was pursuing peace. And so that is what the institution was doing in terms of implementing, monitoring the implementation of those agenda items. And so I spent a good number of years there and as it will happen, some of or part of the items that I was monitoring were issues with institutional reforms. And part of it was the constitutional process. And then moving there, I went to an institution called Katiba Institute, which I, looking back, I'm really grateful for because. Which also inspires your book. Yes, because the ones who actually supported it and helped me in the publishing and helped me launch my first book launch, which was really good. And after that, I worked with various other organizations within the civil society space. I did a little bit of politics thereafter and then joined the public service and now looking to work more with, or looking to work in addition to that, looking to work with young people in terms of promoting law related and constitutional education amongst young people. So it's been a number of years, but very engaging. You mentioned 12, almost 12 now. Almost 12 now, I think 12, yes. Right. Which is a good amount for a profession. There's this book by Robin Sharma. He talks about the 10,000 hours, which is equal to 10 years or a decade for you to be a master at what you do. In any space, you need at least 10 good years. 10 good years.  In one or two things I'd say, but it's been quite, it's been quite an interesting and very fulfilling, largely fulfilling journey, if I could use that word. Right. Yeah. There's a point in your explanation you mentioned, institutional reforms. Yes. And if you look at the situation that we have right now going in our country, there are so many places that are tilted and there's a lot of confusion, but then in the spirit of what's going to happen tomorrow, hopefully it won't happen, that's my prayer. There's a lot of things that need to be put on the table for young people to know if you're signing up before you go to this demonstration. So there are things that need to be clear to you. Live alone even just people going to the streets. I love the fact that your book is speaking to now young minds, teenagers now, a guide to make them understand. Why is it important for young people to know and understand their rights? I believe it boils down to the purpose of law in society and law broadly has a function to help people solve disputes. It has a function to help marginalized communities mobilize and fight for equality and just to more or less improve their lot in life. And then it also has the purpose of social control. So if you look at the dysfunctions of the law, the functions that the law fulfills within society and then you look at the role of the youth in ensuring that they know the law and ensuring that one they do not go against the law and which is some of the instances we have now we have young people getting into more problems with the law going against the law and you end up you know having yourself a criminal record that should not be happening when you know your rights if you're from a marginalized community for instance and of course young people already placed in a category where they are considered vulnerable if you use that word. How are you using the law to improve on your situation in life? The constitution already provides that young people should be given opportunities for them to participate fully in the economic, social, political and cultural fears of our lives and all through the constitution it also has provisions that talk about non-discrimination, equality, sustainable development, issues that actually touch on the youth, even gender. Issues that actually touch on the youth and are set to ensure that the future generations of our country are taken care of and their welfare is promoted. So how do you as a young person use the information you have, use those provisions, use the opportunities you have to improve your lot and to ensure that your actions and your activities are building into that future moving forward. Interesting, interesting insight right there. But then your book is centered on teenagers but for me for me I think it's I did a quick scan through to it I think it's meant for everyone even adults as well can read according to my understanding. So why teenagers though do you feel like maybe they're not as included as much when it comes to maybe serious conversations because a conversation about the constitution is serious. It's for everyone ideally and knowing the law, knowing what the law provides, knowing the function of law in society it should be for everyone because it impacts all of us and all the sectors of society and all sectors of community. The problem comes in where there's very low legal literacy and there's very low constitutional literacy and the attempts that are being made to improve this situation are oftentimes being made with or for and by adults and that takes me back to the reason as to why some of the motivations as to where I wrote the book and you remember I mentioned where my career started in the civil society and during a period when Kenya was going through a lot of upheaval in terms of restructuring its social and political its political spaces and so right from the post-election violence you realize that it was young people who suffered the most you realize it was young people who are going out on the streets much of what we are still seeing today and then we have the constitution and the constitution now is being the literature out there is being the information and the literature is being designed and disseminated only for adults and then at that particular time if you have a 14-year-old even today if you have a 14-year-old 14 or 15-year-old in about five years this young man or this young lady will become an adult and then you're given your ID and you're given your voter's card come 2027 and you're told okay now you can go to the one now you can vote and you can even stand for office because now the constitution the constitution requires that of you so there's a lot of voter education but there isn't political education a voter education political education voter education and political education and I feel that also applies to also the the other side as well not just for us the netizens what you mentioned there's people who actually have no idea what they're doing they're just implementing things and then the ripple effect is now the suffering that we're going through right now because we say we say we say information is power if you do not have it then you do not know how to use it yeah so you can we can have a constitution but then if people are not reading it if people are not engaging in it and people are not defending it if people are not implementing it then it becomes just another document on the shelves and that is why it is important because it holds such value for us as a community it holds such value for us as a society and as a generation that its implementation is what is meant now to move us to the next levels in terms of development in terms of peace in terms of security in terms of equality so it's critical critical that every person out there knows what the constitution provides knows how they can use the constitution it's especially critical for the younger generation because then they're laying foundations for the kind of life that they're going to live moving forward for the future yeah and they say that our children is it is it Whitney Houston who sang the children are the future we are the one yeah also that one as well you got it you got it you got it but then in this book basically for maybe a teenager who'll happen to land on this book at the bookstore you'll also tell us if it's available in town or any outlets as well in summary what do you want them to get from this book because it's all about the constitution as well knowing it writes your freedoms your boundaries your limitations but then we'll also get to that adage that says where your freedom begins that's where it ends you'll tell us more about that but now for the teenager who will land on this book what do they what do you want them to pick from this the book uh it's called the teens guide to the constitution of Kenya right and so it's a simplified version of the constitution for young people so you look at it it's contents it's meant to simplify what the constitution provides and in simplifying what the constitution provides the language has been changed from the technical provisions or the technical the legalese that the constitution has into language that a teenager and a young people can can relate with and then secondly it's been made very attractive for the sorry very attractive for the age group in terms of making it colorful using illustrations and then the activity sections as well where young people can now do sessions to help internalize the contents of the book and to help them engage with others because in the book you're going to see this group work there is working with an older person working with a working with a say apparent I'll give you an example of the the chapter on public service because that's that's another if adults don't understand the public service for instance and the image perhaps is that public servants are this way and that way imagine what a young boy or a young girl thinks about the perception now the perception so then say in the chapter of the public service one of the activities we talk about the principles of public service and so one of the activities is to spend the day with a public servant and a public servant could be a police a public servant could be a public school teacher a public servant could be a government doctor spend the day with this public servant find out what they do what they think so that even for you as a young person moving forward then one you you could change your perspective or perceptions about what public service is and you find you get to understand what public servants do and what the constitution provides and it's the same for the other it's the same also for the other chapters say even for the judiciary what does a judge do how does a judge get to the point where they're making a decision on a case one of the examples there is a case study where you have a young man who's tall and something and so you ask the reader if you are the one deciding on this case what are the factors that you should that you should consider you consider their tribe do you consider how much money they have do you consider the evidence so it's practical in a manner that engages the young people while helping them internalize what the constitution says and helping them engage with the society around them right interesting thanks for that but then also you know you can't know or understand the constitution if you're not a reader even in journalism you must be a good reader and a good speaker but then the culture of reading as well I think here's where you capture the young people because they I think it was one of the statistics that said you know people are not so you know into reading especially in Kenya and there's people who launch like book clubs and you need to just help young people sit down and read the constitution and read such a book that I feel like it's an explainer in fact you should have called it the explainer to the constitution but it wouldn't have been so musical contains guide to the constitution is really soft and subtle yes it's soft and subtle the cover is colorful makes it really palatable to a young person right I had mentioned where your is it where your freedom begins I'm aware your freedom and rights begin that's where it it starts to end yes in the bill in the bill of rights it's it actually has a list of that where you know it says you have a right to you know to education your your freedom is etc etc maybe for young people who are watching right now what should they get to learn especially specific parts that speak to them what do they have a right to what is their freedom in terms of this book as well what what you're referring to is called the section on limitation of limitation of rights which says you are you have rights but then there are certain rights that can be limited there are those that cannot be limited like your right to life cannot be limited it's not up for discussion but then there are aspects to make it relevant like now the right to picket the right to demonstrate that one as well is up for discussion to the extent to which that the extent to which you can go and I've given example in the I've been an example in the book where you can have the right to picket because that's that that's a that's a civil and political right that you have but then you cannot go picketing say someplace like a hospital or within or a school institution or a school institution we saw the tear gas situation happening that affected students what was you know all the the information that was put out there so you can you can you have a right to go demonstrate and picket and you know all that but you can't go do that in a hospital because then you're endangering the safety and you're endangering the welfare of those you're engaging with and so as it's saying where your right where your right ends is where mind begins as far as issues on limitation of rights is concerned maybe maybe like an example of such a situation happening in the country you able to pinpoint one well it's it's it's already out there the debate as to peaceful demonstrations yeah peaceful demonstration I think it's so it's so we've it's become such it's become such I don't use the character the word characteristic of our society but it's what we see out there and it's what when whenever they say that you're having demonstration is what most people fear so that individuals are able to have individuals are able to have peaceful demonstrations but then there are number of elements within society as well that do not engage in that in the peaceful demonstrations and I think there's also another aspect about which is also out there for people to discuss as to whether the government as to whether institutions and even the police is supposed to give permission to for people to demonstrate which again is up up up there for discussion so what I like about the events around is that especially for young people and those interested in moving the country for these are discussions that they are putting out there and they're engaging them in a quote unquote healthy manner because without having those discussions then it's very hard for us to to move forward by what I say looking at where we are is to be guided by the constitution and to be guided by the rule of law and be it whether you're a citizen whether you're a political leader whether you're an institution it's very important for us to just observe and defend the constitution because I believe that is how we progress as a community right thanks uh you this book ministers a lot to generations is I believe and you love maybe to and have a session as well have you had sessions including in schools maybe at events as well that is what that is what I'm hoping that is what I'm hoping for and I'm available for that because this is an area of great passion great great passion for me so that it's not just having the book but now creating platforms where we can have conversations with young people again staying on the topic of what's happening in the country what do you think a high schooler because you're having it as adults yeah young adults and older adults are the people of the older generation but what do you think a 13 year old or a 16 year old thinks about what is about this whole situation about this whole situation and how is that informing their mindset and how is that informing their engagement with the government how is that informing their engagement with the neighbors because even their leadership systems yes and even the leadership what what what do they think what are their view what kind of views are they now forming about leadership and those are now the conversations that we need to have with them at that stage you don't wait for someone to get to 30 or 35 that is when you want to try and straighten them if I could use if I could use that word you have instances where they talk about the constitution promoting the welfare promoting the welfare of the child you have young people now within the age of social media there are things that they do as young people very advanced things that you hear about as an adult these days and you never did them in your younger life you're like what this is happening today what is happening today you know and it's they do not know to an extent they do not even know that they're committing that they're committing a mistake I'll give an example of a decision that was made by a friend and former classmate about teenage boys and teenage girls engaging in sexual conduct so what has been happening is if a boy and a girl meet they are both teenagers and they engage in sexual activities oftentimes they are considered children to begin with but then what happens is that the boy is considered to have defiled the girl in fact she'd be guilty in charge yes I think there was there's one incident in the news outlet I don't know if you saw and I think he's in jail the juvenile is it the juvenile jealousy it could be the one it could be the one that we are referring to and so it was a whole it was a whole discussion because do you feel it was unfair for it to go that direction of jailing the young the young yes it is yes or rather yes it was at that particular point it was very unfair because these are both children they are young they are young a young boy and a young girl experimenting being a teenager and perhaps lacking in the education lacking in sex education and how to go about these these issues within society and so then they are found but the law the the law does not ignorance of the law is no defense but does it speak maybe to the gender because I think that's when gender the gender card comes in oh she's a lady oh once you're a victim there's nothing we can say I'm a or it's a guy or go to jail we can't hear you out you know those ones now and that's why we say the law is broad and touches on various aspects of society so then there's a legal aspect there's a constitutional aspect and then there's a societal aspect we are now the gender disparities and conversations about gender equality equality come about so then in this context it's very important for us to educate our young people on what the law provides so that they know that you're sending nudes to your friends within school you are committing a crime because you're engaging in pornography even if it's between the two of you could actually get into trouble you're engaging in sexual conductors by what the ruling the ruling talked about yeah a lot of things that it's important for them to get to understand what the law provides and get to understand what the constitution provides how they can promote how they can promote their own safety and welfare and how they can mobilize themselves as a generation to move forward and that comes about to what you're talking about creating platforms where we can engage young people in law related and constitutional education in that spirit of what's happening in the country right now um for young person who could be found out there in a mess and here you are in trouble but then you say your the constitution is your saving grace maybe what are some of there what are some what's some of the specific parts that you can use to defend yourself against maybe a policeman or maybe uh i'll say who uh let's let's say an authority that has come to maybe arrest you what are some of the rights that you can use especially that are in the constitution to defend yourself for example maybe it gets messy tomorrow i'm praying notes i agree so yeah so just in case how that happens how how can you defend yourself so the constitution provides still in the uh the chapter on the bill of rights on the rights of an arrested person right what used to happen before and why if i could give that background what used to happen before and why that provision became very important was that there was a season in our country where you could be arrested arbitrarily you could be arrested and you stay in the cells for much longer sometimes you uh you don't go for trial for such a very long time sometimes you are you are disappeared so to speak and so to address those issues the drafters of the constitution emphasize some of those some of the provisions within the chapter on the rights of an arrested person and then there's also a accompanying legislation and a number of regulations that talk to that so one of the things that perhaps is not really practiced in our in our in our scenario is for an arrested person you must have an idea of why you've been arrested you know the kind of things where you see in uh movies where as they arrest you they tell you you have the right to stay silent and anything you say will be used against you in the court of law they should be like a come back for that when a policeman says you know they should be a constitutional comeback because that is one of your rights you should be informed the reason as to why you're being arrested it should be clear like i'm handcuffing you but be quiet you're like nope i can't be quiet i'm quoting article 37 it's not like before where someone will just budge into your house and arrest you there are things like such warrants which need to be need we need to be enforced and which detail exactly what you're being arrested for and once you've been arrested but it's it's important for us to know where you've been taken to right and then you have the right to representation yeah in the event that you're not able to provide that for yourself then the state should be it should facilitate legal aid because you have a right to you have a right to representation and then you need to be presented to court a reasonable time period not like what it used to be before where you'd stay in the cells you haven't gone for trial for two months and because that is now being used as a means to victimize you for a decision or an opinion that that you express or an action that you made like now going going to the streets so it i believe it balances the constitution has a way of balancing society protecting all interests where it protects the interests of the citizens it protects the interests of the constitution and then it looks at the welfare of society so there are things that used to happen that are not happening anymore there are things that used to happen that should be happening better and it is a journey if i could use that one as far as implementing the constitution is concerned and young people need to be informed and to engage so that they know where we are coming from where we are right now and where we are heading to because it's only then then that we can realize some of the promises that are in the constitution right fantastic and and and also i'd like to say that we live in an era or a generation of social injustices you know for instance there's this recent one where you know there's this boy who fell in love with this campus chick and then i could pull up with a knife but then it seems like these issues are escalating in the spirit function of this book is there maybe a solution to it and that is why i said there's the law there's a constitution there's society and this needs to work together in terms of the law and reaching society and society and reaching the law already for an instance like that we have means and ways of securing justice for the victim injustice for the victims family yeah so in the event that someone was stabbed and it's a it gets to a point where the person died sorry then it goes to court it's either manslaughter or it's murder so the law addresses that but then some of the cases that we've had is while the law is doing what it's doing you have young people who are continually are continually experiencing mental health illnesses they are not you would say they're not even fully equipped on how to handle relationships nobody's talking to them on these issues how do you handle conflict in the event that you are in a relationship who are the individuals that you're able to talk to or refer to if you're having if you're having if you're having problems and then some of these issues go and checked for such a long time so that someone's personality with time someone's personality becomes grounded and then they've gotten away with so many things that eventually do not help them or help or help society so in advanced in advanced cases and I think with concerted effort and a lot of being deliberate if I could use it that way you have the law working as it should because they still need for accountability they still need for justice but then you complement that with the societal aspects the societal aspects could be family could be medicine could be mental health issues so how can this come together to help address some of the some of the challenges that we face or some of the challenges that we're facing as a society right great thanks for that explanation I've remembered something there's this scenario that keeps on popping up in your profession I give an example they say for example if somebody invaded my home and maybe yes they have a right to on a gun I lawfully on a gun and then they invaded my home and then they try to hunt my wife or my kid and then I shot them I shoot them and then it happens they pass or they die so when that case is taken to court am I convicted as a murderer or will you court some of the specific avenues of the constitution or your legal profession that highlight that I killed this person in self-defense and protection and if just in case it doesn't go my way will I be considered a murderer and I think that's the beauty of there's a beauty of law and standing standing low and and and and practicing it because in the eyes of the layman this is someone who's died so automatically someone goes all the way when so that is it given but through your legal education and even through your legal practice now there are certain elements of of of what now adds up to this crime so then there's mother there's there's there's manslaughter and some of the things then they look at is whether you had premeditated right yeah this is like a whole yes like you did a whole like you actually planned you knew this person is going to come at 10 and so you are prepared your gun was loaded and you're actually waiting behind the doors for this person to come so that one was what they say menstrual it was like premeditated mother and then you acted you could have you could have had a reason for it you knew this person was coming to invade your home so you had the motivation and then now you acted on that motivation yes so that now that one that's where you have the mother first degree and you know those are the things that we're going to see what about a felony a felony keeps on popping up a lot examples of it maybe a felony now is not saying if i could use the layman layman's language it's not it's not the extent it's not the extent then now you have you have all this other you have all these other aspects that contribute to that right so then if it's not like in this instance if you could go back to that then it's not murder in that degree so now that's like degrees first degree second degree it's like intense more intense extremely intense and now blowing out yes depending on those depending on those elements and then now that's where you have the manslaughter and then now during that whole process during trial and maybe sentencing you are told to talk about or your counsel now is asked to talk about mitigating factors so that some of the mitigating factors could be like oh i was sad i was angry we were in the middle of a fight so there's a lot can that be taken as a reason in defense in court yes yes yes it can say for someone who's that is why they take people for mental exams and they i think they it's it's one of the requirements all through so that you have to be if they're going to prove that you actually premeditated this and they're going to convict you with mother they have to prove that you in the right mind mind for you to plan it and premeditate it and actually actually that is why now they're taking for the mental exams just to know that you in the right so there's a lot that goes to representing someone in court there's a lot that goes to convicting someone there's a lot that goes to sentencing someone and i think those are some of the developments that you're seeing as far as the judiciary is concerned and as far as the law is concerned yeah and there's a lot to talk about we'll get to about you now and some of your achievements and successes in just a bit but the right to life with the suicides that are happening everywhere left right and center there's somebody who's telling me that the it's a good time when you you'll be found to have even planned to try to you know commit suicide you definitely be jailed if you don't die they'll take you to hosie and but it's your life you know somebody was arguing cinema decide we end but then at the end of the day life is sacred the bible says that the bible is also another you know constitution but then also the constitution says you have a right to life and know any other person should you know interfere with it maybe you can talk about that exactly to just spend exactly and i think that's that's a conversation that we are having at different levels because one of the things we need to appreciate that the law and in this instance the constitution is a reflection of society it's a reflection of where we are as a society so there are things that work well for us there are things that we appreciate there are things that we approve that perhaps are not in in in other jurisdictions so say for example things like abortion you have instances where in other states and in other countries it's become legalized actually the use the use is bundling that there's some states where i think was it in uta well they say they're completely do away with it and there's some there's even activists and and and and and people like you in the legal profession like nope there's people who are pro-choice pro-choice and it's a whole it's a whole debate there's pro-choice pro yeah and even the gender part comes in the gender aspect so you have conversations such as abortion abortion rights if i could say that you have conversations about suicide now you have conversations about what is it called euthanasia whether someone in the event that you become a vegetable god forbid and now people need to decide do we switch it off so that we stop so that's a right is it also included in our kenyan constitution like come on tune and go on your son and it feels like they've drained every resource and now it's time for them to go like the constitution just give it's more or less like a guideline like it gives the house yeah and then now inside this house you have all these many rooms and you have all these many small cupboards so now what happens is the constitution has provided it and then in certain instances where that is not available it demands that parliament now passes laws then that will give effect to a certain provision like now you say the right to life like it is upon us depending on where we are as society and depending on where we are with these conversations that now we are going to say we need to enact a bill or a law or a policy that now talks about euthanasia and still based on the right to life you have things such as whether people should be hanged i've gone blank on the term on the term exactly i think it's a it's a it's a i also learned of it lately yes hopefully you'll remember right yeah so those are conversations we have because being hanged a while ago it was something that was allowed i think i was even reading a story about the last hangman of our country so death sentence yes yes i remember i remember that sentence death sentence so i should why can't they just equate it to life sentence meaning you'll never get out and you're spending a whole lifetime in jay other than like them ending your life that is it and now and now those are those are some of the developments and conversations that are going on because people say that people you suffer so much when now you know that your life is going to be taken and in the jurisdictions that used to practice that there's a lot of conversations as to the methods of executing a death sentence hanging which is now infringes even on the right to life yes yeah so those are the and again it reflects on the wishes of a society it reflects on what where society is and what that society wants is it a society that prefers if you murdered someone it is an eye for an eye you you go get hanged is it a society where abortion is now becoming legal is this a society where like in other instances where we are you attempted suicide then you are considered to have committed a crime while in other jurisdictions you committed suicide it's it's treated now as a social issue right and a cultural issue as opposed to a legal issue so and religion comes in especially in our country but you know the law is completely totally different from yeah yeah so i and i agree with you there is law then there is society and both should be and both voices really matter and and they're loud both both voices matter exactly exactly both both voices matter because even for the constitution that we have today it is a reflection of where we have come from right and where we'd like to go so we are with it in the present but then we are in between two forces where we have come from where perhaps some of the rights and freedoms that we're enjoying today we did not have and we and now it's giving us what we do not have but then it's also requiring and demanding of us to look into the future into what kind of what kind of society we'd like to have and it gives us the tools and what we need and how to go about it and how to go about it and that's why we have people like you you've made me remember there's somebody who i think there's a move or a directive to you know have section 37 repealed or maybe edited out in terms of you know picketing demonstrating and whatnot and people are like no we need and then there's somebody who said now we need again to sit down and see how we can redraft this constitution but then there's also been voices that have been constantly vocal in this space the likes of kinamathika roo said they were part of actually the first the second or first drafters of the constitution maybe you can expand on that as well well that speaks to the amendment of the constitution and the amendment process the constitution is not static not that it's been written 10 years ago and now we have to stay with it the way it is for the next 100 or whatever so it's a living document that is why some people call it a living document so that what it contains is a reflection of again where we are a society it's a reflection of our hopes and dreams and wishes as a society so in the event that 10 years not even 10 years in the event that next year we decide that now we want to go we've decided that this constitution and this mandamano these are things that now we do not want to see the right to picketing it's not adding value so now we go back and sit down and say now we are taking away we are repealing the section that provides for civil and political civil and political rights and the constitution now provides for processes that someone should follow when amending the constitution so again it boils down to our conversations as a society what we want where we are and where we want to head to and i feel like it's it's a volatile conversation especially when the temperatures are like this depends on your interests right so i think that's when political interests come in as well and i think it will be it'll be interesting to see how that will go but i know it don't happen and how far it will go now back to you you have quite a remarkable impressive resume or CV you are you you you have years of experience working as a political and civil society an institution also served with the kenyan government a kenyan government as the presidential speech writer and chief of staff in the former administration or maybe many more of the previous administrations it's well it's the same administration or same administration because you're still in the previous the previous regime but here just before you you proceed you're also 2018 obama foundation leader and been voted you've been voted by your peers as one of the most influential young africans which is something that should be recommended about so excited congratulations and this happened in 2018 it happened in 2018 right after we'd come from the obama foundation the obama foundation gathering which was a platform post of post president obama is being president he needed a platform where he could engage he could engage young people and that was one of it and bringing together leaders from across africa just to teach them to train them and to give them more confidence as as young emerging leaders so that happened in 2018 we went all the way to south africa it was about a week 10 days of engagement and i got to meet him you met obama when he was potas yes no no that was after he was after he was after he was okay that is why he started that is why he started the engagement which was really exciting and then i come home and i get that award and i think that has opened various other doors opportunities moving forward so it's also the same period now after i spent a considerable time within the civil society i wanted a new experience i wanted new challenges and given my interest in the issues of law leadership and governance i felt drawn to what was happening in the governance sector in the public administration sector and after a couple of months as a political analyst and a governance analyst i remember we were quite quite a number of us at that time now i moved into i moved into public service and as fate will have it i was now the research and speech writing in what was before the psu i'm sure you heard of it so i spent a number of years there and for about two years a year and a half two years i got a secondment to the ministry of sports culture and heritage as it was then as now the chief of staff to the cabinet secretary so it's been those are big positions it's been a learning experience i come with a lot of money as i really know you mean what are you mean one one of the things that we say about the public service is that you go there to serve the public it's not and i'll be honest it's it's a perception in short it's a perception like people think once you're there you are yes and and and that is one of the misconceptions misconceptions and perceptions that i think need to be addressed in terms of looking for public office or looking for state office for the resources that you are able to take to benefit from it as opposed to us having conversations as to how you're going to engage the public because government is so important there are so many things despite all the noise that is going on if our government was not stable and functioning to a certain degree because it's up there for conversations for for a number of people that there's so much that it's doing there's so much that is functioning and there's so many public servants who are very dedicated to seeing their country prosper yeah to an extent if we do not have a functional system if we do not have a functional government there's a certain things that you know we wouldn't be where we are today and so public service is critical and if in the event that you need to engage with the public service you need to come and work with the public service or just partner with the public service i think it's it's it's critical in terms of moving our country forward there's this mentorship program that that i'm engaged in it's called hesabica trust okay and what it does is that it's trying to develop a pipeline of of young graduates right from college until the time that they are engaged in engaging the public service so it's a one-year internship where they are attached it's more like an internship you're attached to various government institutions so you are in there and you get to learn about what public service is in so again some of those conversations where someone says when i got in i did not i just thought you know i've arrived yes you've arrived the one and secondly you thought it's the the same things where people say from public servants majority of them or a good number of them you go you hang your coat there's a season for hanging coats until now i'm told but during kibaki's during kibaki's early era now he introduced something called performance performance contracting so that as you're getting into the service as you're starting your year your financial year then you have certain like a sport yes it's it's like a sport so that accountable you become very accountable in terms of using your time and resources for government and so what that did it dealt a little bit with this hanging of coats and you know and and aspects like that so you have young people saying that they find it very fulfilling right because the kind of decisions that you make as as as a public servant they they have a ripple effect yeah and then if you if you develop a policy today when it takes time to develop that policy you develop that policy is going to affect generations and generations and generations to come so what i try to do in the in in in in the spaces i am in and with the young people and when we have conversations about the public service is to focus on on on on if i use the word on the things that add value to the conversation you know if there are public servants who are doing a really really good job yeah yeah because you have some of them who've been in the public service for such a long time and they are dedicated and there are our parents there are our brothers there are our sisters there are aunties they're within the public service and doing an amazing amazing job of course within every society you're going to have one or two bad fruits if i could use that but that should not be an indication of what of what of what government is yeah and there's that connotation of slow service like there's so many stories you know carved towards that and of course it's the it's the ones that it's the negative ones that normally that normally make it out there as opposed to the positive ones and may i not be quoted i'm not saying that the public service is perfect it is not there is no perfect institution there's no perfect country there's no perfect way of doing things but then it's it's looking at what has been established what has been there and where we want to go if you take an example of service then you have things like access to information for instance so working together with the government and remember that time i was in i was in civil society working together with the government in a manner that promotes efficient service yeah so now the access to information act for instance says that in the event that you've gone to a public to a public institution to access public's information then it should be prompt it should be given to you within a particular timeline and this is it should be given to you in a manner that you that you understand and so that gets implemented within within the service so there's a lot that is improving digitization is one of the things that we talk about now and recently they launched a digital it's called the e-citizen platform and with all the controversy be that as it may but then there's a effort now to digitize and to reduce paper and to improve to improve service delivery you have now people paying for government services through MPESA so it's a lot of there's a lot that's happening and the conversations i have with young people is let's promote what is good yeah let us give credit where credit belongs and then we work towards improving what is not working because it's for all of us it's for our country and it's for benefit and for our welfare i'm told we have to end it here but i have like five more questions but i'm just ask one yes there's a certain perception that people get when you're in a certain profession even in journalism they believe oh you're you have money as a lawyer they believe you're very tough and you know everything and you're you can see through people when they've done things do you get that a lot at some point i'd say i'd say one one of one of my pride is belonging in the is is belonging in the profession and for most lawyers and even people in the bench we are we are we say we are called learned and my learning friend my learning friend and learning is not because learning is not because you've read so many books at the same time learning is because you have the opportunity to learn and ingratiate yourself in different disciplines so that i can be a medical doctor i can be a civil engineer i mean a medical lawyer i can be a family lawyer can so many sectors that you can always fit in and that is where the learned friend the learned friend comes in and for anyone for any young person out there who has an interest in learning law i think we have as many institutions that are now coming up to to help young people get to where get to where they want to be i think it's very fulfilling if that is what you set to do because beyond the glamour of it and beyond calling each other fancy names there's also the aspect of working with community and actually changing lives and actually contributing to the welfare of the country and your society so it's it's good all right i think we can we can end it there you are also an advocate of the high you have so many titles my good friend oh my goodness thank you you know maybe if people want to purchase this book and access you give you feedback is there maybe an email is there a number is there a shop outlet that they can get yes yes yes it's available at Nuria store on Moe avenue even and they also have an online art outlet so you can check at Nuria store where you can get a copy of the book the book goes for 850 because again we need to be in a situation where we can print many more so you can get your book i am available for conversations and especially for young people the more platforms we have to engage each other and have conversations like this the better for the for the benefit of our country so you can reach out to me on my social media handle sandra or chola across board and we can pick up the discussions and there's a number underneath me it's on your platform as well yes it's on my platform it's on my platform you're free to give them if you want to sure please you can give them so that they purchase this book very important for the purchasing of the book yeah well you could reach out to me on or chola sandra at gmail.com and we can start the conversations from there and if you need the book then Nuria store if you are within if you are within Nairobi Moe avenue and you can get your copy it's only go it's going for only 850 shillings right yeah thank you so much i feel like we should have had like another session again we can talk about it a lot man for a whole day but thank you so much thank you and nice to meet you nice to meet you too looking forward to the next one already please heaven the universe you heard it all right i'm going to speak into sandra or chola she's an advocate of the high court she's former president of horror speech writer former chief of staff in the ministry of sports and currently works at steth house okay you know and thank you so much i'm sakwa see you next time right here and why in the morning