Good morning George. Morning. How are you? I am well. How are you doing? Very good. Very good Excellent. I don't know if this is going to be a match or not or What so we'll play it by ear and see what? Fabulous, but haven't it'll be what it's gonna be exactly. It's nice to see you Morning greetings. Hey Ken. He's got Charles Merry Christmas everybody and to you Hanukkah being over with but And Kwanzaa being already in progress. I'm forgetting the days of Kwanzaa. I think it starts the day after Christmas, doesn't it? I forget festivals. And there's festivals. Yeah, so let's air our grievances. I Saw a tweet from Seinfeld saying just this year. Let's let's pass on airing your grievances. Okay Good good point I like to say I love Festivus.  So so we watched bonanza And I don't know what the name of the young handsome guy was but for to me He was bucles the Oro, which means Goldilocks, which I assume is what his name was little Joe. Yeah a little okay So so to me he was bucles the Oro and to me the soap used in the kitchen was palmolive so palm olive right And there's a couple others like that where we're like my pronunciation is just totally different. It's the way call Haas. I Don't remember Haas. He might have just been host or something. I don't remember. I think he had a different name But it wasn't as fancy as bucles the Oro. He actually met Michael Landon when I was a little kid. Oh, cool. Yeah, I went to a Circus and he was there and I you know stood in line and waited and he signed his picture and it's a big deal for me Oh Sorry Cole It's been all downhill since We're having the traditional extremely cold after a snowstorm day today. Oh When I got up this morning, it was minus three. Where are you, Minnesota? What are you getting an interlock and did you get the edge of that storm? Yeah, we went from mid 40s to low 20s overnight It was beautiful walk this morning through the quiet woods. The snow is coming down and yeah Well, we had a blazing desert. I mean 40 miles on our route, white outs closed eight inches in some parts of the state and Literally howling wind in front of the house But we only got actually about two inches here in Woodbury. So that's not very substantial the New York in New York it was About 18 degrees last night and 55 degrees now We've got we've got 35 it just keeps wanting to snow But hasn't and there there's a little bit of snow possibly in the forecast in Portland, Oregon, so Crossing our fingers I like it when it snows here though. It doesn't snow every winter here, but it does snow on occasion In Zurich, it's it's breezy and balmy and it rained all night heavily and sort of sprinkling today But I'm sure the mountains again dumped.  Yeah, my stirru types are being blown. I Just learned about something very cool that I've sent a couple of people here It's called intersections plural science fellows calm and it's specifically a mentoring Program including a high talent person symposia of postdocs on the verge of academic seeking appointments and It's focused on diversity very strongly And it's a consortium of about 25 universities on the East Coast and It's modeled after or they say inspired by several similar programs some on the West Coast and so forth That sounds super useful. It's really the content is really high caliber and the only reason I know about it And this is mom bragging, but my daughter just found out two days ago that she was selected as a fellow and I heard of the program And so and she actually didn't know that much about the program. I mean she just applied to see What happened? Yeah And much to her pleasure. She was selected But now it's like a whirlwind pace because first they send you the letter and they need an information form for you with a bio And a photo and other stuff like that and then as soon as you send them that then they come back with well Now here's the next things that happen and we've assigned this person to be your mentor And you're supposed to meet with them twice next week before the symposium on the sixth to the eighth and It's like a fire hose. Yeah, what was the name of it again? Intersec I'll paste I'll tape it and paste it Intersection science fellows plural I'm gonna jump in and say um, congrats to your daughter, Judy and um, I think Lauren is planning to come but she's visiting some friends today Lauren and I Kiko I've got into a fellowship actually just uh, Just yesterday. I mean we had this kind of came up quickly and um, it's similar to Judy What you just said, I don't know yet that much about it, but it is also It's an eight-week program that begins on the 12th of January So we're going to be like in this tunnel mode I think a bit and um, it's it's a git coin. It's something called kernel k k e r n e l Relating to git coin ethereum blockchain. It's sort of web three decentralized Tech staff and they're waiting heavy on women, which is why we got in this Lawrence Superstar and So that's the news we can announce it. We just heard the affirmative so that's exciting. That's fantastic. Great. Yeah You'll be here in one. Yay. That's good Love that I'm sharing something that I discovered in the middle of the night last night so I've been looking up the history of words as I'm developing my thinking skills program and I've been using this resource and really enjoying it And last night I checked on the about page It was created by one person They made their many made a dictionary And this is the little story of of how they came to do that and they just Made it and I just think that that's wonderful and they said well, you know they They did it because they wanted it to exist and they didn't have any expectations beyond that and and it's just I don't know. I think it's a It's it's very og me Because it's a nice way for years. I had no idea that it was maybe one person. I've been using that site for years Same here Same here Um, thank you. I will uh, what side is that again? It's in the chat the link in the chat. Uh, check the chat. It's etym online online etymology dictionary But the URL is etym online dot com And I love etymology. I just love insects You really bug me big That was for ken our punmeister That's I might have told that story before but in in high school I I think it was like end of the year and it was a little party. Um, and my biology teacher was there And I had gotten into like a summer program and I was going to take an etymology course And he heard me say entomology and he was all excited But yes, it was about words not bugs Love that I've got some favorite etymologies and you know too bad Doug's not on the call because he is the master of word origins That word origins that matters in some way like that matter to the quest to figure out how to fix How to fix the world well as I was trying to translate some of the higher level concepts into language that kids could understand I found that the older words were the better words It just was a pattern. It was interesting that that when I was looking for the right word normally I would go to my powerthesaurus.org because I love that but using The you know looking at the history of the words I found I wasn't expecting that but but the older words were richer were were easier to understand You know something like point You know it just has It has all these these are rich connotations that that come with it And and I also was surprised to find that a lot of words Actually are a hundred years old And that's it And not just you know like like hip lingo. I'm talking about like words that that we use every day and I thought really That's I can't think of a good example, but um, it was just surprising that that You know language is is alive, right?  I don't know why or how Even the word nice, uh the word nice at the end of 1800s meant the opposite of how we use it today. Yeah In a dig out a link from Susie Dent who's a uh Whatever the word is for a person who studies words And I'll put it on the chat as soon as I get it Yeah, nice. I I actually looked into that some years ago. Um, I had I knew someone that was really, um hard core Against using that word nice and used to like chastise anyone that would use it and give them a whole like speech about what it really meant That was nice of her One of my favorite word origins is uh in a nutshell And that's a not a word origin but a phrase origin But I I go back and forth between phrases and words But in a nutshell comes back from the days of illustrated manuscripts when you had scribes basically Recopying texts and it was a test of skill how small you could write So one of the tests was could you write the gospels the four gospels that so small they would they would fit in a nutshell And then another sort of religious one is subrosa anybody know what subrosa means So subrosa means in secret, right? I've told you something subrosa Uh, it turns out that the virgin mary is the symbol or the patron saint of the confessional That in many confessionals on the ceiling you will find a white rose because the white rose is the symbol of the virgin mary And therefore anything told to you or that you've told someone In the confessional is subrosa is under the rose Interesting Just to to to the question of a simpler language. I mentioned the uncliff dish beholding it's Exercise exercise of style by pull Anderson actually trying to describe Modern concepts using only core Saxon Anglo-Saxon words no Latin language No nothing derived from Latin or Greek Which is Yeah, and I'm so I don't know if you can guess if so beholding to behold is from is the is equivalent to science because science has come from Latin and Uncliff dish so to cleft to cleave of course is to divide So uncliffed is undividable, which means which is his translation of atomic Hmm because tomah tomah is to cut in Greek That time is the undivided Which brings me to the difference between science and religion Science comes from scissors comes from cutting things apart sort of analysis And religion comes from legio, which is a bond which is and rarely guillot is the reconnecting the remaking of bonds That is contested etymology. Then we get into folka etymology Yeah Excellent All right, go ahead Scott So to give you some context for the reason why I was looking at etymology sites at three in the morning Wow Well, I couldn't sleep and it's because I wake up and I'm working on this project, which I'm considering my magnum opus. I think um I'm going to paste something into the chat and this is the uh This is the latest iteration of the structure of my my thinking Well, yeah, my my my my thinking skills for kids um system and Wow To to go through So to go through it it started with um, you know, there's Well learn learn make and play those are big buckets It's said in a different way systems thinking design thinking narrative thinking Said in a different way conceptual practical purposeful putting them all together in a single line You can see how they link learn systems thinking conceptual and then all of the nine That are there are Learn try decide remember etc. Those are all the simple word attached to the actual Deep word and my frustration has been that Most of the people that I know that are really really amazing at this stuff and deep into it tend to use the words on the right They talk about systems and divergent and neural networks and distributed cognition and the average person is like I Don't even know what this is and I'm trying to translate it into No, these are things that you actually do and use And if you were to learn them when you were young They would serve you your entire life and so Just to run quickly through them where I've landed The first lesson is about framing this as metacognition. I thought up last night. It was kind of funny that your mc is mc metacog Anyway, so you thinking about thinking And then as you we go through them the systems thinking that I follow is the cabrera model of distinction systems Relationships and perspectives because I think it's simple and they can they've proven that they can teach it At the the elementary school level But just very quickly not to take over the call here Try divergent so try is like my simplest word for creative Because you're experimenting decide Going back down to your it's taking taking many down to to a few Remember is everything that's going on in here that's unprompted So your ability to remember recall use your You know your your recall curves and the way that memory will fade over time and and peg words and enrollment room technique And you know all of those things that appear Remind is everything outside So that's your notes which computer systems that's your whiteboard all that stuff Draw so that's the semiotics that signs visuals meaning in symbols Describe is language So it's either going to be oral or written. So that's actually where it's play the verb Is you play a game so games are rules and a goal And challenge, you know those things And then play is the noun or play a noun is a story and I've Playing with the idea that a that a game is actually a story now And a story is past or future But a game is Is actually a story now and then the last bit is the story of you which is that unique story That's unique in all of history That you can write and change and and that's your agency That's my elementary school students I'm sorry. What this is for elementary school students. It was it was designed for elementary middle that that kind of area to try to equip them with thinking skills Which instead of the typical Learn learn the information for or absorb the information for the test. We're not actually learning how to approach new things And and this is well, I applaud you. I think this is wonderful things The almost 98 percent of Of education I speak as a former school psychologist in another another life Um, almost all of its content almost none of its process As you know and and We just don't teach kids how to think and what we think we are teaching them how to think is not thinking And all these other functions Uh Phenomenal thank you. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. This is 25 years of hobby and what happened was I I thought it was fun. I thought it was interesting. I taught my own kids similar things and then It wasn't until recently that I realized and have been seeing like some of jerry's videos On on education and talking to my daughter who just started as a middle school science teacher And she's explaining No, exactly what you said george and I I said wow, I didn't realize things had changed so much Since I was in school and she said I was in school 10 years ago and it wasn't like this And so Um, it's it's given it a an impetus. I think that's really this is absolutely the time for it because now we have all the thought tools You know, we've got the brain. We've got the rom. We've got there's a there are dozens of other literally dozens of What, you know, steve jobs called bicycles of the mind You're all familiar with that. I assume right the The bicycles of the mind analogy is just mind blowing Can I I would just I would just commend skype also you didn't mention you've come over to the collaboratory the collab kids gathering and Try some of this out and it's and I think right away. It was pretty profound also for us as Is the guides facilitators so we look forward to more of that for sure Yeah, I thought you're you just did one lesson In in some rigor with the group probably six weeks ago and it went really well. I thought Um, I'll frame that. Thank you. Thank you, judy. Thank you, charles and hand learn for letting me do that and share that stuff I'll frame also the I'll put something in the chat. I don't know if I have any handy though I I The other part that goes along with is how this is taught. So I came up with this 5 10 15 module structure the idea is Normally if I had a 30 minute class, I would make 25 minutes worth of content And then you'd be five minutes and stuff and I I read something and I realized that was exactly opposite of what it should be And so what I I came up with is I need to be able to teach all of these in five minutes If I can't teach one of these concepts in five minutes and And each one of these has little little subtools that comes with it that you'll see later But the idea here is that five minutes Here's what this is distinctions Distinctions is is the dividing line between what something is what something isn't and it's always chosen by an individual All right, so This is distinctions 10 minutes Is now you go away with that concept with a little bit of a prompt and you Work with it For 10 minutes without much direction from from anything all you have is a slight introduction But because you understand you're able to mess around with it a little bit and then 15 minutes We come back together and we talk about what What happened in the 10 minutes and we extend it and expand on it and say oh well, that's you know We understand how distinctions can apply to different Other areas and then we start to say oh that could be combined with these other tools And so it's a very interactive working with what you just learned Instead of giving you A lot of content that you are then kind of like a you know a bucket that we pour it into you're actually I'm going to give you something small and actionable that actually has high leverage And then we're going to work with it So that you're able to actually engage and and and remember it So that that's kind of the other part process over content Yeah Can I add something to the scope? Go ahead So, did you know thinking at the edge as a system? Uh There's like focusing by Eugene gentlemen, uh, which is uh A therapeutic method where you often use images to describe how you're feeling and often it's very slow and it's trying to uh describe the implicit Or the felt sense and the implicit in the felt sense is something you feel but you don't necessarily have words for it But it can be a very rich kind of field of understanding We'll go ahead. Sorry, please finish. Yeah, and and and I think it ties a bit into like if in knowledge management, you've got like stock and flow Stock is what you can think of and what you can name and what is it possible in words And flow is the kind of information that's more more difficult to put into words and you'll learn by doing And I think those two together They might add to what you already were explaining and it's because I'm I'm like a mime artist I do a lot of music and for me There's also a way of thinking which is not the words thinking and it's not the mind making divisions and categorizing it's actually something about how you Creatively come up with things that's beyond even beyond your thinking, but it is also part of thinking It's not really describable where it comes from But it is Yeah, all these kind of concepts. I think might yeah might add to what you're already working on I agree with you and one of the areas in us in the The draw the semiotics, especially is about using Using very simple visuals. So this is every problem And This is Basically every game You have a goal. You have rules. You have a challenge. You have an action And those sorts of things are along the lines of what you're describing and that they're not they're they're pre They're pre verbal And um, I don't have anything that's it's motion oriented other than Walking But Doing planning all that stuff I This may be helpful to you. I divide Conscious mental functioning into five simple areas There are the thoughts or thinking feeling remembering or memory functions imagining the creative functions and doing action regulation monitoring of action. So there's five different areas and I would urge you to go beyond just thinking Into these other areas because most of the Major things we're trying to do like problem solving and decision making involve all five areas And if they don't if one area is missing The process is deficient To make sure it it does and and the design thinking aspect of this the the central the make portion is actually from the Uh divergent ideation to the convergent decision prototyping test feedback um, and I got a little hung up on Including an operations type section And I I thought My audience at this point The most sophisticated thing they might be doing I'm guessing is going to be a project And a project so it's not necessarily a you know, it's not an operations type. It's it's a project. It's going to have a A finished thing And and I thought okay, so part of distributed cognition is tracking your projects Tracking your statuses that is something that I think I've done it with elementary school kids and beyond that I think it I agree with you But it feels like that might be something that that comes later as their project work becomes more sophisticated in their life And but I don't know I think you're right though another thing you might want to think of is I discovered in the third grade That my hobbies were teaching me more than my school And that was a profound lesson From the third grade I was more focused on process than it was on content And it served me very very well I heard somebody years ago say that if you want to find out what you're going to do as an adult Go back to what you were doing when you were 14 Like like somehow by the time you're 14 you've materialized something that matters a lot to you that you may be obsessed about Whatever it is, but 14 is kind of this age where you're often in that kind of sweet spot Perfect and I want to take us back to this notion of a retrospective in a second I kind of Let us wander here into a really interesting space because I love our conversations when we wander Ken did you want to throw something in? Yeah, Scott. There's there's one thing that I'm I'm curious about My teacher Talks about matriculation. So he'll teach me a move and I have to practice that move for sometime before a matriculation my body becomes part of what my repertoire of Moves are and part of that is rest and part of that is So I'm the what I'm curious about is this all seems to be moving in an action direction Where is the resting point the shavasana that lets it integrate and so there's so the the I believe in the creative the the neurological Neuroscience creative models and not the advertising creative models and so incubation Is a critical part of that And that means not working on the thing And so I'm going to use that as the small end of the wedge to include things like meditation walking Things that take you away from the problem Also include also include. Oh, it's sleep. I'm sorry. It's just also include reminiscence, which is the I think that's the word The improvement of performance without practice and Another every every musician knows that phenomenon you go away and you can play it better the next day Eric And one concept a bit beyond kind of thing weird kind of thing, but it works for me to understand something It's the nagual and the tonal As described by castaneda That's like the tonal is what you know and what you understand and what's been put into boxes already But then the nagual is everything we don't know and Some of that you can put words to in other parts You might not even be able to put words to or even know Because it exists beyond our a perception Just wanted to name that one. Excellent um Let's this seems like a good moment to head back toward and julien is showing images Julian do you want to scrap what that is? This is the cover of a book that I got during my introduction my employee Orientation at lego. It's I'm not sure if it's showing up. It's called play children's most important work Oh, cool. And It talks about the process of it's part of why lego bricks were so successful, right? and one of the things I wanted to bring up with scott was that The 510 15 things seems too pat because as we know learning is a subjective process And minutes have nothing to do with human evolution So one thing I was going to bring up was That the numbers are just so nice Right, and you know if they are really suitable And then the the other is the really the importance of play because after all that time at lego It's like it was so clear as to what that visceral experience brought to the human process um And then my two quick contributions to scott's quest and I think also talking about scott What you're doing and how to materialize it would be really good for next week's call In terms of what are we going to do like looking forward because it feels like a very much a looking forward project But two things I would think of one is that kids love hard fun That that that fun doesn't need to be simple and quick and easy And the other is that in the venda venda diagram of life. We somehow separated learning Work and play And those things have separate parts parts of our lives We're supposed to be in the like the learning the work part And then you get to retire and play and then our day parts are all separated learning work and play And to me really good learning while working is play And to me the venda diagram should be a big circle And we should we should be playful in our learning most of the time if at all possible. Go ahead judy For me learning is play and it's been a lifelong thing I mean, there's nothing that gets me happy or joyful than learning new things And I have an insatiable curiosity about just about anything So every every once in a while someone say well, you you're really giving up a lot working all the hours that you're working And I said I'm not giving up anything. I'm doing exactly what I want to do with my time And it was a foreign concept to that person who viewed work as work And play as play and we've managed to segregate those in our lives go ahead I just had to throw it in because that's just so close to my core values But actually what both of you said you remember that old saying about find something you love to do And you'll never work a day in your life. Yeah, exactly Absolutely Scott and then I'll turn us back into a retrospective mode um, so I had originally had Learned work and play and I ended up changing it to learn make and play because make It's the same thing in a sense, but I didn't have that negative weight Um, but I uh julian, thank you for that that call out about the 5 10 15 I needed to make some kind of structure and I think it's more philosophical than it is prescriptive It's let's a short introduction lots of interaction as opposed to The opposite and and I agree with you that it is, you know, it has to flow Right that has to work and maybe it gives kids a rhythm to count on or to predict or I think the five is the most important And then we're going to go away and talk until ever, you know, work on it until everyone seems to be bored with that And then got an important point together because now that I think about it The reason I probably ended up in the sciences is because you get to play all the time I mean, they're do things, you know, and you're doing things you enjoy and it's a puzzle because you don't know how it's going to turn out And so it was I didn't ever think of science in that particular mode, but in this discussion, I'm going oh, that's cool That worked out just fine yeah julian could put the lego book title in the chat Um, so we can capture that And then this conversation is reminding me of my favorite teacher in grade school who was in argentina and Buenos Aires Where I went to the lincoln school, believe it or not And his name was daniel reyes and his he was fabulous And he would stand at the door and like everybody would run into class and when we when we got into class We would grab all the little chairs and jam them up against his desk Like all the desk all that you couldn't get up and leave All the chairs were jammed up against his desk leaving him a little path to stand at the chalkboard chalkboard And right and then and then his mo was basically he'd work us up He'd like get us into a frenzy talking about whatever and it was literature It was a bunch of you know history a bunch of different things And then he would sort of lean back and kind of go like this And we would all like reyes is mad reyes is mad And we would shush ourselves and calm ourselves down And then he'd crank us back up again And it was it was like this this little rhythm in class and I don't I don't know that that was always what he was doing But but I remember as as an adult I got to visit ba and I got to sit in on his class and watch this happen And as an adult first of all It turned out that he wasn't a giant with a booing voice. It turned out he was about this tall to me But but like this method was so full of love and so full of like attention and and excitement That it really worked and I was very happy to see it after the fact as an adult because it sure looks different Um, I'd love to go back and and I just want to say thank you to you all and and I I wasn't expecting that to go off and take over everything, but I I just appreciate all of your comments So very much. So and it was a great contribution the conversation Scott. Thank you. And I and I'm sitting here thinking, okay Um, as we figure out what a learning quest looks like, how do we feel exactly what you're doing here? And how do we how do we help you instantiate it? How do we bring attention to it? How do we do the ogm kind of things around it? So Maybe we need to create a practice called ogm jitsu. I don't know um So and I just for some reason I wanted to put an article That was a reflection on what happened to women during lockdown that I read yesterday and I thought it was a really good article in the New York Times and Basically the article says hey as things locked down and as the social support systems failed This fell heavily on women and women had to step out of the workforce more Uh, a lot of parts of the support system are going to stay Broken and will not be there and what you know, if if feminism had achieved something what did achieve if it wasn't durable And where are we? um So I thought that was really interesting because because lockdown has had uh myriad effects that we're still figuring out and some of Which we're still going to feel later Um as we get you know cascading economic effects also of of what's happening So I thought that was uh that really struck me. That's by far not the only lesson from 2020 But that one really kind of sticks in my mind. Go ahead scott I'd heard something recently on the big five personality model that related to this and it had to do with your level of Orderliness, which is a subset of conscientiousness and the idea behind it was if you were Three percent more orderly than your partner You would notice things That had to be cleaned Five minutes before they would Which would mean That you would be the one who was always doing that just describes our household perfect, right and again But the idea wasn't that you were you weren't at opposite ends of the spectrum. You were You were just slightly they were just slightly more sensitive just a little bit more and so The whole thing was like well if if you really if that's what how you're wired and that's what bothers you then Then just accept it. I need to I need to do this so that I feel Feel good. Okay You know, maybe it's not necessarily uh I'm always doing this because you never do it. Well, it's like well, maybe it just didn't wait long enough Interesting go ahead jilly Maybe this will ring a bell with somebody but I heard about someone who studied this and found uh, for example, a friend of mine and his late wife were frequently at odds because for example Somebody would he would use something in the kitchen and then put it back But the definition of put it back differ greatly between the two of them for him If it was in the kitchen he had put it back and for her it had to be in the kitchen in the right place Right and I heard that something about someone who studied this phenomenon identified it Maybe someone knows who that was Doesn't ring a bell for me Um, but it does remind me of a punchline that my business law professor had he said he used to say does the name Pavlov ring a bell? Sorry So let me go backwards through the grid here to see how we can check in on Lessons from 2020 and take us wherever you want to on what you've picked up from 2020 and I'll start with Tom atley and mic Who are not regulars in the group and are really really welcome here in our conversation? Thank you for for being here. So let's go tom mic klaus Well drag out from the crowd here Um, I don't know what's I'm I'm in such a personal transition it's hard to hard to describe the mixture of on More vivid climate stuff. I was right next to some fires that were moving in our direction for a while on and and of course the The weather and the fires elsewhere and they're reading about what's going on with fire I mean fires are changing in their character qualitatively You know fire fire nato is reaching 30 000 feet into the air kind of it's like what? Oh, you know And the you know firefighters are Trying to figure out how to predict things anymore all the algorithms their models they're working with don't fit what's happening in front of them And that's just a piece of it combined with the With the very weird year in the political social dynamics On which makes me I mean lots of people go yay biden won so everything's cool and going no Stuff This stuff has been bubbling for a long time and it's it's like the volcano You know, it's like finally some pressure has been let off and it's plopping out and it's like whoa. It's a toxic stew. Yes And there's you know People go well, there's plenty of opportunity for trans transformation. I go yep in all sorts of directions This is not necessarily a blessing. There'll be lots of butterflies flapping in this in this tsunami, whatever And also being in touch with people like michael dowd jim bandel we're into the you know collapse trying to understand what's happening with societal collapse and What that means in terms of how to live a A decent meaningful contributory life and my My central work has been the exploration of collective wisdom particularly as applied to communities and societies and the And A lots of ideas the whole pattern language on how to How to further that But I realized as I watched things sort of coming apart that a lot of my Suggestions are based on Are based on what what we already have, you know on kinds of connectivity and And resources and whatever and that those might not be around so the next question is what does the pursuit of collective wisdom How do you do that in a society where There's increasing disorder less resources peoples Habits and you know ways of being safe in the world are being challenged right and left and it's like I don't know And there's a lot of interesting people doing work In the field, so i'm sort of in a largely learning mode While i'm stumbling along Transforming what I think and trying to it's like I just Doing an end of your fundraiser and it's like how do you how do you raise money? How do you get people to give you money when you don't know what you're doing? It's like a very strange strange Yeah, and in my own life seriously Disrupted with my semi-distance Partner who I see every few months kind of So I don't I don't know. I don't know the the the learnings has has a sense of oh, that's what's going on and here's Here's where I've come to in that and I don't know retrospectively. I just look at the My own world and the larger world coming apart Lots of really creative stuff being done. I like to say things are getting better and better worse and worse faster and faster but the the worse and worse is pretty Intense and the better and betters are held back both by outside forces and by assumptions that People who are doing the better and betters carry along with them So the limit to how far you can stretch into the over the edge kind of uh I don't know. I'm I'm in a thoughtful puzzled place And that will just have a mirror image of that will go up for what I expect next year I don't know. Maybe I'll have a big epiphany in the next week and be certain about what I would say Anyway, thanks. Thanks for having me. I have you know, danced around this space for a while I had a long talk with Charlie yesterday He told me to show up here. So I am Jack Thank you very much What you're saying resonates really strongly for me too. Just the The sense of things are getting better and better worse and worse faster and faster, etc And and the possibilities on the downside Are just crazy scary and dangerous And it feels like more intense than usual So the fire analogy works really well for what's happening socially as well We're having social wildfires that are that are sort of Um out of control in ways that didn't happen before because our we have super connectivity all of a sudden, you know Uh, you it long ago. I'm forgotten. I've forgotten what you're this was said, but you know Um, a lie can travel around the world eight times before the truth gets its pants on right? Uh, and that was that was pre-internet era Is mark twain. It was twain. Thank you Yeah, the fires as tom described me. They're both metaphorical and literal Yes, right That was very definitely it was the it was the reality of them that Got to me and the fact I thought okay the fire the firefighters are working harder Because there's so many fires ago. No, the firefighters are trying to figure out how to Do anything like what they used to do with the new conditions, which is metaphorically also I noticed this here that the a new term got introduced in the firefighting, which was complex You know, for example near me was the Santa Cruz complex.  You know, it's just it raises up stuff It tears trees up by the roots and takes houses and stuff with it and all that all of which are burning And then throws them far away. So it's like that's part of the Complex is it's starting new fires elsewhere in ways that didn't used to happen You know fires used to progress and now they just spread like you know dandelions kind of Which is a different reality and this may be the tip of the edge of climate change natural disasters Maybe this may this may be the start of a whole new set of category of of nature I'm gonna mock I have a friend in England and he's you know, he's in lockdown for this new virus and the and the Johnson had put a new a new level of You know extreme kind of code red. There's no code. It's above that the sense that there I've heard already that they're putting make preparing new levels of force for hurricanes And now tornadoes. It's like we need to have higher Things in order to measure it. It's off the edge of our measuring sticks. We're turning the knob to 11 Yeah, right And they was on the social side. We never had a We've never had a president who ignored it and and you know, like There was no expression of oh my gosh, this is terrible. We gotta do something. It's like, well, you need to rake your forest You know, it's california is not managing their forest properly. I just was There's the final the social fire there is is also amazing. Yeah, exactly. Go ahead. Go ahead. I was just gonna say there was an actual volcano eruption on the big island of hawaii And we heard about a little bit firsthand alone and I in a meeting the other night, but it was It was actually on the solstice at the same time as the the satan jupiter conjunction. And yes, there was A volcano actually waking up right then in a moment. So that's There you go. Go ahead. Tom Yeah part of my learning Learning unlearning last year at the social level. I mean, it's like the extent and they talk about your money It's just agreement and all this sort of things and it's that's like, yeah, right But it's such a solid agreement and like what happened on our political, you know democratic institutions is learning just how much it's just an agreement And realizing how little agreement there was at the moment and how close we came to just toppling over the edge And that edge is still there waiting to be toppled over It's, you know, how the next, you know Years unfold as things get worse economically, environmentally, whatever Trying to have some sort of orderly politics and become Increasingly difficult, which is both a blessing and a curse. But I really got that, you know, we've been My whole life as an activist kind of been pounding my head against these solid institutions and going They are not solid And that's it's like the soviet union collapsing. It's like, okay, people said, well communist capitalism could collapse just like that I go, well, yeah, and I go, well, yeah It's it's very How to reorient in the space where that level of change is possible at any moment is Is challenging, say the least. Totally agree. Thank you, Tom Um, let's go mic class lord And here's mic in my brain Thank you, Jerry. Um, sorry to join late and sorry not to be able to join more often Um, nice to have you here I was hanging out outside. We had an electrician here trying to rewire our house, which was not wired properly, apparently um, I'm going to be pretty brief and try to summarize just a few of the discoveries this year I don't think everybody knows what I do for a living, but Jerry and I have known each other for more than 25 years and We've both been trying to make the internet better Him by helping the innovators and me by trying to stop the politicians from getting in the way of the innovators And so my current job and this is my eighth dream job is working at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace working with governments and policymakers and corporate people and thinkers around the world And my focus has really been a lot more on words You know, I'm I'm a physicist by training so most of my career. I've been the guy in the room who says This is the future technology. This is what's happening in the lab Or this is what's happening at some startup and this is how it's going to change things Don't miss it up And I've been doing that for many years well it used to be the political process Didn't want to miss out the future And now they don't give a damn And it's really frustrating and partly because it's about public relations and pr and partisanship now And as a result, I've kind of changed my focus from trying to point to the future And instead I'm trying to craft some better words better means I mean we have these incredible bumper stickers that are shaping policy right now One example is intellectual property the whole idea that a britney spears album is the same as a car But the more serious ones are things like Data is the new oil This is one of the most destructive ones that I've had to deal with and I talked to policymakers from pakistan to belgium to south africa And they they have adopted this because it was on the front page of the economist three and a half years ago And they think of it as the strategic asset and they have to hold on to it and they don't understand that information is power Information sharing is far more powerful So trust is the new oil not data And we've got to change that mindset. We've just got to get past that because It's the difference between hoarding and sharing and combining So data is the new air. That's that's my attempt. I'm looking for something else that works better But air flows across borders It can be used and reused if it gets polluted you can clean it up So that that that's one of the many things i'm trying to work on right now And and the way i'm doing this is i've got a memo on the the seven thorny questions These are the big powerful problems and digital policy that are not getting resolved And that's What i'm trying to focus on and i'm trying to get the vision and the words right So i'm not doing the economic analysis. I'm not a lawyer but instead for encryption for data protection For connecting the unconnected I'm trying to lay out what the real issue is And and in some of these cases the real issue is a matter of values. Is it more important that we Protect all of society or is it more important that we protect our individual liberties and our our individual privacy? These are fundamental values choices that countries are not willing to make They keep thinking that they can do everything We can have total surveillance know all where all the bad guys are but we can have absolute privacy So this this kind of collision is is something that has to be addressed And so i'm trying to come up with some words that make people think differently about these choices And to sort of start with the the campaign speech and go from there So that that's been it's been hard for a physicist I I did spend three years at georgetown teaching in the communications culture and technology program And the communications people and the anthropologists convinced me very quickly that What they do is a lot harder and more nebulous than the technology But pulling this together is even more complicated. And that's what we're trying to do I resonate with what tom says. That's another thing I learned Is that no one wants to fund the important problems? If it benefits everybody I mean I'm trying to get funding for some of these projects and it's just it's really hard because it doesn't benefit one company over another And everybody agrees. This is really important stuff. I'm sure somebody will fund it So that's been an important finding But uh on a personal level Uh, I've also done a lot of growing this year Uh, Kathleen and I celebrated being together 10 years 10 days ago And we went away for a romantic weekend in a little town nearby One of these overlooked places that nobody goes to unless you're in covet and you can't fly anywhere And we had a wonderful weekend And um And I got engaged so after 10 years we decided Oh my congratulations. It was really wonderful. So In a in a in a yurt at a brewery on a farm But the coolest thing about it was besides the fact that we're going to live together for the rest of our life the coolest thing was That through social media we made so many people happy I mean people even people who weren't close friends But everybody was kind of amused by the way we did it and just so excited for us and and and that was that was That was powerful. That is awesome. I I think that's that's another use Of of our lives is to bring joy to other people and I can stick to Lizzie as the flower girl Well, it's going to be a zoom wedding. So you'll be able to see it Those are those are some reflections and the other the only other thing I would add is that um Both Kathleen and I have invested quite a bit in executive coaches this year You know, we're not going to do it for the rest of our life But you know every so often you get stuck and and you get stuck in mindsets and it's exactly the same as my policymaker friends who have it in their head that You know, the internet just moves bits. They don't understand. It's now a giant computer that's processing and storing bits If you get ideas in your head and no one challenges them Then you don't move forward And I I wish I could find a cheaper way to do that than an executive coach so I'm I'm looking for Looking for suggestions on that So I'm gonna sign off. I'm not gonna sign off, but I'm gonna shut up I know I got a lot out of the discussion earlier and look forward to to joining you more often And I'm really looking forward to next week because I'm the futurist and I'm pretty excited about 2021 Not just because we have some competent leadership in washington, but Because I do think we can turn some things around So thanks for the opportunity to to talk and I'm happy if anybody wants to find me Twitter is a great place to follow me at mike nelson on twitter and if you'll post the seven The seven thorny questions piece when you've got it done if you're posted to the ogm list or whatever, that'd be great We'd love to we'd love to read it. It will never be done But I can share the the highlights as a work in progress if you want if you want comments on a google doc Or something as you're writing it post it and we'll you know, people will jump in So that'd be great. I'm gonna do that. Thank you. Thanks Klaus Lauren Eric Yeah, 2020 has been has been An interesting year on so many different levels I mean, I spent the last six years trying to convince people that without addressing agriculture in the food system You can't solve the climate system And it's finally maturing, you know, it's So many people have joined in organizations and and Even even eat the eat lancet coop, which has done so much damage in the beginning with This is why we have that corn meat and the impossible burger Has come around to really look at food in the context of nature now and you can't Solve what we have done to nature by going that meat in the labs I'm I'm preparing for pre pre meetings with the panels for The movie showing kiss the crowns, you know, we have the movie directors and The founder of the organization in one meeting and so it's a really interesting panels on on One Mr. Sierra Club and one this citizen climate lobby. So I'm I'm thinking about How to prepare the conversation and sort of nudge the conversation into specific directions and In the process I'm thinking What a mess this is, I mean When you look at the food system the further you step back, right? The more you realize this is a complete market failure I mean, this is a classic market failure What we are facing today you have a food system where 20 percent of the population Have no access to fresh food Now 20 percent one in six children grows up food insecure standard for life for lack of nutrition and And in poverty Yeah, when you look at the inner cities of the u.s. And abandoned communities throughout rural america You realize what a complete mess this is now there are companies that have Put a factory employing 10,000 people out of a community of 100,000 and just were left And and crashed the entire community behind so it really started. I think on the reagan and the the the design focusing the design imperative for For corporate development has been completely focused on profit And they they without any consideration for the social impact of their decisions In fact openly stating that's not our problem And you know whose problem is it, right? If you have the same companies who reject any input on what are the social needs of the economy that the economy has to fulfill And at the same time influence the political process to not do anything that harms their profits I mean, that's how you end up with a mess and this is where we are right now. It's a complete mess Now the the damage the system does to the natural world With the chemically intensive form of of calling food Is incomprehensible it is incomprehensible when you think that the gulf of mexico Has dead zones that are hundreds of miles deep, right? I mean, how is how can how could we have allowed this? It's Unfathomable, right? So this is where I came to in 2020 is This is going to kill us. I mean, this is going to Absolutely destroy us if we don't get a handle on it and it unfortunately has become a lot more critical than it had to be because Five years ago this could have been easily fixed if eat Lancet and all these corporations, you know, who were The godgarnet around the world council had decided that The protein they need for vegan foods Should also come from sources that are regenerative to nature We could have made a huge impact, but they didn't you know, they no one paid attention to where that comes from so I think 2021 is Is the year where we will I mean going to the future, but where we will Have to address those issues, you know, so to me this I keep talking about the densification of knowledge, right? The more dense our knowledge is the more simple our language becomes Because words then become so much more meaningful because it has so much behind it And I think that's what we are moving to, you know, we the We begin to really understand this and the the the other hand side on the other side, of course Mark and a market capitalism is unquestioningly the best form of of guiding and or letting an economy grow and and and Satisfy needs but there has to be some direction to it right it has to be that they have to there has to be a regulatory frame that moves an economy forward with restraints and with specific designed outcomes And and you see that in countries like Denmark and Germany. I mean, they are designed outcomes, you know, social democracies Functions just fine and and so here has what has metastasized in the 90s particular 80s 90s Is this idea that the market will self-regulate that the market will find best possible outcomes? And then you when we look at The bottom 50 percent of the population how people struggle, you know, how they are constrained with debt and Then then that's really not the market and the unreasonable Conscious person would design and so there was no design involved here You know, it's it's a free fall So anyway, that's sort of my thought process for 2020 Thank you, Klaus. What's the name of the company you mentioned earlier? I thought I heard e-lancet e-lancet e-a-t Oh, okay. Yeah, e-lancet today. I mean The the World Bank and not the the economic Council Bill Gates and everybody is hanging in and There was a McKinsey sturdy that Came out in 2018 2017 Where they Advocated a high tech solution to agriculture And menu and I can not post it in a moment. I can I can show you the the the article that summarizes these studies completely focused on on technology and Looking at solving the problem of so many animals by let's just call protein in the lab and use plants Well, no one thought about okay, so where does your protein your plant-based protein input come from? Well, it comes from china Which sources soy from persil cutting down the amazon rainforest in the process You know, I mean, so so there was just a a complete Lack of using design Criteria, you know that is a holistic approach to solving such a traumatic problem and And they got away with it, right? And so so it wasn't that there was a whole group of Of no fellow travelers of mind here who and also, you know, the the good thing is that NGOs are finally coming together Looking at a common reality instead of fighting this one cable there or I mean like Michael Level projects now we are looking at this more from a systemic perspective. So now We are formulating a challenge to the incoming secretary of agriculture Will suck, you know, because we work for obama for eight years making more of a mess And so now is this the same guy coming in doing what you know more of the same?  I mean, what do you see needs to be fixed here? So it's this kind of systems thinking that Breaks through by understanding the food system on a macro level. You know, if you move up on the macro level and you go when we have Like 40 million people who don't have a grocery store inside now to to To buy Some fresh food or some photos So How do we fix this? Because we have to start at the bottom and this is actually when you think about it I mean the entire the essence of new testament thinking Is that you have to take care of the poor, right? I mean that's and and and the christians overcame the woman empire by focusing on the poor because that's where By by helping generally helping that's where society revitalizes itself and rejuvenates itself Thank you, and we're clearly not going to make it through everybody, but we're in a really good discussion. So thank you Let's go lauren eric julian Okay. Hi everybody Um, very christmas. I'm glad Santa's here So on monday, we did uh, we did an ogm circle appreciation over at uh key collab and Yeah, it was really great and sometimes when we do these circle appreciations Some people emerge as really uh much stronger than I think that we give them credit for and um I'm really excited to uh tell you that one of these these people who really emerged on monday was um markantuan parron and I just wanted to uh I I We take these circle appreciations and I turn them into video profiles. So I just wanted to share that with you today So I hope you don't mind Thanks a lot by the way lauren for this process. This was so so so Uh I'm still I'm still really under it, but I I wasn't the only one to emerge and definitely uh, no you are but Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's let's watch. Let's watch. Yeah, but uh, I do want to say I mean, I'm now very sorry I was absolutely you were fated in that process There'll be another one. There'll be another one Here we go Markantuan runs way deep you can hear it So when you start talking about uh about his projects when you sort of go into hyper knowledge and and and so forth And you realize that he's trying really hard to model Everything that's involved in how we think and express things to each other Including how do I break down nuances and sort of dive deeper so that we might actually Be able to have these conversations with one another assisted by Technology that that is busy mapping and holding all of these things we think and and do and and how it all unpacks and And the level of depth came up on a list recently where he and steve newcomb were sort of going back and forth on I'm totally above my pay grade levels of How semantics work and what is going on when you do deep analysis and it was just a it was a master's class Just reading through this email thread as they were sort of replying to each other Going through this particular topic was beautiful. What comes to mind to me is an iceberg And and here's why It's always in motion but with a small visible face that's rising up out of the water into the sun But it's stabilized and supported by this incredible mass below the surface He's not a hacker. So he's not like the kind of person who's like, what's just the Easiest way that I can do something Mark Antoine is going to be like, what is the Best way that I can do it when I heard him talk. I thought, oh my gosh, I want to know this guy So I pinged him. I told him that I was going to be in Dubrovnik in a couple of weeks And that's when he asked why and I said because you know, carabeg and I were running this biannual event called knowledge federation conference at the university in in Dubrovnik Well, lo and behold mark Antoine bought a ticket and showed up in Dubrovnik and attended the event And I asked him to steward one of the sessions and he did it masterfully Was at that point that I began to realize that mark Antoine was He was a keeper as some that some people would say mark Antoine Really knows what he's talking about He goes really learn. Could you mute your mic? knowledge emerging of knowledge grass feel like The Hubble telescope like while it looks black in there, but there's these billions and billions of galaxies. They're like really deep and bright and I was very Thrilled to to be in conversations with you I believe mark Antoine has a series of clones like a clone army because He has really large projects of his own that he's busy trying to bring to fruition And yet he participates with insane generosity In places like free Jerry's brain and open global mind and he's completely on board with listening to other people's perspectives And trying to help them on their journey He's not he's a person with a huge journey of his own who's not obsessed by that journey and overtaken by the journey It's always very inspiring to see somebody just cranking out work and just chugging along and like every in the free Jerry's brain initiative and in OGM he's been just adding consistent You know pieces to a to a to some software that are that's making continual progress And he's not afraid to take on big things and actually Um just day by day just take on a little bit in a little bit and he kind of like keeps doing stuff I hope to join join in on that velocity with you and put my shoulder on the same on the same stone soon enough and he joined topic quests board of directors And so he is while he has his own enterprise in his own business He is a part of the functioning of the topic quest foundation And he and I have formed a partnership, which is another kind of an entity That intersects his work and the topic quest foundation's work He's very generous in how he relates to people And I sometimes think that he has a gift for seeing the wisdom in other people's comments And shares that with the group and helps us see the talents of other people He makes you feel understood um when you talk and like is always listening to try to understand what you're saying and um I'd like to thank him for his generosity of his time and expertise A really generous person. He's generous with his time. He helps people out. He's a kind person And this is his greatest quality is that you cannot be it doesn't matter how landish you are and and in articulate He would be pushing me to explain what i'm trying to say And he actually gets most all of it and it's just he's just amazing finding Finding the signal through the noise, especially when talking about very complex topics um, and You know that because he asks the right questions observing the way that you think I'm fascinated by it the way people think and you know, you clearly have a lot of different maps and and Perspectives that you can jump around to and weave those in which a lot of people can do But not everyone can do it so that it comes out coherently for the other people in the conversation and that to me was really amazing like You just don't reach and grab something really down and go. Okay. Here's this and people go. Yeah, but what you've got people say Oh, yeah, I totally see how that connects to this and this and this and it was inspiring to find him to be a quiet thoughtful deep thinker Who then says something wise But in a way that everybody can understand it which I think is a real gift because Lots of people can think deeply but not articulate what they say And for how technical he He he can get it's pretty amazing how he can actually You know come up for air and explain what he's talking about to to normal people as well You have strong opinions about stuff and you're coming into things with strong beliefs But you're listening very carefully For how those beliefs might be challenged might be changed And I think that your your neurons are wired softly enough that you could change them if you if you felt like it If you were convinced about something and that's a it's a beautiful thing and so You're sort of a walking talking living breathing example of what open global mind wants to be would like to do The kind of person we would like to help The you know all of those kinds of things mark and tuan is someone that we all trust to be honest to be Humble and to pull themselves accountable. Sometimes he'll show up and he'll go I didn't do anything this week and it's also really wonderful to see like the the honesty What I would say sets him apart is that he is a man of quality There's an integrity to it. It just you know, it's not that this one little piece that you can see but it's attached to the whole thing They held the 50th anniversary of Doug Engelbart's Mother of all demos Mark Antoine bought himself a ticket to Palo Alto. I picked him up at SFO And we stayed in that town for a couple of days and attended that conference. This is a guy who quite literally Put his money where his mouth is that's all I want to say I also appreciate your humor and the the lightness of your being you just feel to me like somebody who is um Just having a good time. You know, I mean, it's it's just it's it's really fun to hang out with you and I look forward to more of that I really appreciate our interactions and your incisiveness intuition observations I am just uh, you know up to the gunnels with praise for you and the way you approach and show up Thank you, Lauren It was dancing the first time The second time is even more embarrassing. So all the all the movie theaters are empty right now So I understand it's going to be screened around the world Uh in movie theaters, right? Unfortunately empty movie theaters. Is that right? That's great. Um, thank you for those of you who have to drop off and we'll go to a little half and then Uh, and then wrap this call. But Mike, thanks for joining out and I could um Lauren, do you want to add anything about lessons from 2020? I mean 20. Yeah 2020. That's the year when dang Which will mercifully be over soon. No, I feel like I've taken up so much time already That's I'm good. I'm complete No, you had you you you take you took time with me Well, I uh, I think one thing I just kind of learned was just to jump in and start doing stuff and Um, yeah, I think I think we're gonna do that next Monday as well and try to take, uh, you know, Jerry's ideas of The guild structure and play with that and use these deep profiles to kind of put people into roles and start just playing around on a board And seeing how far we get because I'm really excited about that idea Jerry. I think it's really Um, I was really inspired by your video. So cool. Thank you. I'll try to be there That sounds great um Let's go to Eric then mark on Tom See how far we got through the Yeah, thanks. Nice to be here first time Yeah, um, no switch the view so I can see um So one of the most important things I learned about this year was actually last year But today I this year I really went into it is IFS is internal family systems Because the most complex system that I know and I'm dealing with a lot of complex systems is myself, of course because I'm everything and everything happens in me and I think, um FS gave me a way to actually be able to be with that like and not to just have having to be like one person that is has is like That somehow put together I know I consist of a lot of different parts. That's kind of the essence of the system This is a it's a therapeutic modality for those who don't know but it deals with how parts within yourself interact with each other and For me it was like, oh, yes finally something It takes me a long while to find a suitable therapist and then to arrange stuff, but It's it's a really nice Thing that I've got this kind of perspective. Finally. I can make sense to myself maybe My wife the ifs couples therapist. Ah, is she? Yes, really? Oh feather. What's her name? Marla silver Oh, wow, well here you go And then the other part It happened during the call now like uh, thanks church and here's to meet her um so the other part is walking like actually during the call just before my neighbor, she's a very good non-parent communication trainer It's a neighbor of my parents at my parents house during covet and normally living Amsterdam, but She invited me for walking and actually that's what I've been doing a lot the last Like months and you can see a lot of people walking now. It's amazing how many cars are in the parking lot of like Forests and stuff, but for me it makes a huge difference actually And it's kind of uh, I get this. Wow. I get a notification to update my friend there. Um, so the walking for me is like Uh, a way and an indication that I really one of them that I really want to change my Way of living. I don't know how to do it yet I'm looking again at maybe moving back to a community like a eco village or something, but I'm not sure I actually want to be living in a city probably for the possibilities But something I want to really change. It's more like looking forward I think the third thing that I really want to name It's going to make absolutely no sense to you probably Right now Or maybe a bit But I'll explain it in another call probably and I need to share my screen It's this so uh I've been working on a a kind of system It's a huge brainstorm and It started off 15 years ago and it's like creating something imagine the brain but then a social network and maybe many other more things but It's easiest if you just imagine the brain, but then you work together and this this kind of outline is kind of How all the systems fit together and how to create like a collaboration system, but something that really works And this is something that I created in the last couple of months And with this I could finally feel like oh, yes, finally. It's fitting together. Like this is actually possible it's possible to create a system where people will collaborate in the hugest possible scale and It's yeah, it's it's uh, this is just one. I've got so many mind maps and you know, but this is actually one we're really proud of where I got at and It's maybe another part is is yeah this but it doesn't mean anything unless I take a lot of time explaining it, but it's something like um Yeah, no that would take too much time. Have you recorded yourself explaining these? I would like to but I think I can't do it by myself. I need someone with me doing that So what you could do is we could set up ogm pop-up calls that are specifically For you to explain these diagrams and anybody in ogm who wants to can show up We can record them. You can post them. You can edit them. You can do it. That's a piece of cake piece of cake And I think that I think that having a tiny audience of people who are like really intrigued Will is the perfect combo for you just to actually talk it through and then they will ask you questions that Because they're seeing it for the first time They'll ask you questions. You may not have thought to explain up front. So I think that'll work really well I'd love that to happen. And um that's also something that That happened is that I met you like this Well, like in two weeks time I met so many new initiatives that are similar to mine and I've been looking for this like for my whole life It seems or a big part of my life.  I'm like you are like a soul brother So come on in. Yeah, and it's funny. I also saw about your brain I thought yeah, that's just just a guy would love thoughts Just a lot of things that interest him But I wasn't realizing that he might be like minded But then when I Saw you on the call also on Monday and stuff and then started looking. Yeah, I understood. Oh, yeah, that's really someone Yeah, so I'm really so let's make room to um draw out the story of what you've built and uh Uh 2021 is right here. We can start doing that. Thank you. Thank you, Eric um mark on twan I'll try to go fast because we're coming to the half hour I was wondering what I'd say because so many things happened in 2020 and eric gave me a good hint by speaking about the multiple identities And I've been thinking about I've been trying to get gain perspective on my own work and I'm trying to Make sure that you know, we all have understandings and they all have a kind of so so coherency and consistency And then we try to align them with social understanding which have their own and now the problem is we're In these limited groups so we can afford to to have much higher consistency Which a much smaller group and this is how bubbles are born And I think it's very important that we all keep having multiple identities because this is how we It's by belonging to many bubbles that we manage to not be prisoner of fun bubble uh, and and being a being forced to always align our limited viewpoint with different viewpoints in different fields Is how we create again overlapping consensus and all these means of humanizing People who have a very different standpoint so, yeah, this is for the diversity of being as a key antidote to the polarization of 2020 Thank you um, and I'm noting just from this call That ogm is kind of a strange attractor Not quite literally but interestingly for people who thought long and hard About how things work and who are trying to create solutions to those The issues that show up Um, and so so we've heard of you know scott started us off with with his passion project and where that's unfolding Tom and community have done the wise democracy pattern language Which runs way way deep? Uh, eric just explained his work, you know on this for for a long time Etc. Etc. And so there and dorge and I just met very recently and dorge has a model like this as well um, and so So I think and maybe this is where we pick up uh next week I think one piece of what we can do together Um, because i'm aware that when you've crystallized and worked really hard to get to what feels like the right model And then you meet people who have neighboring models that are not quite the same That that's like a it's a moment of both Oh, shit and oh good Right and and i'm really interested in how we how these models have sex Like like how do our idea frameworks get better? By being mashed up against other people's idea frameworks and then get absorbent enough to sort of share some dna But don't get don't become the unified single model But sort of get richer because I think we need multiple perspectives into the giant hairball That is how we think and what society is and you know how we fix stuff in the world We need lots of lots of different sort of perspectives into it, but how do we improve each of our perspectives? Exactly eric How do we how do we improve each of our perspectives and then how do we instrument them? How do we propagate them? How do we you know connect them to other people's? And and the ones that are really near to each other might actually sort of just sort of merge I'm no biologist, but the mitochondria that create energy in ourselves used to be a bacterium that was outside And basically got incorporated. So it was an early act of symbiosis that created the energy mechanism that powers animal cells That's kind of cool And that happened great, you know, thankfully long ago. So we don't have to worry about it coming apart right now That would be embarrassing But but how can our ideas have symbiotic acts like that? so Lynn Margulis, I think was the The biologist who sort of came up with these theories of symbiosis and and and she was really she's one of my favorite contrarians and she was running against the natural sort of scientific theories that you know nature is nasty is red and tooth and claw and it's all about competition and Darwinian evolution and you know All that all that kind of thing and it's like no no no wait There's all this other really complicated and super interesting stuff going on which Metaphorically and this is a gentler use of metaphor than our use of fire earlier Um, it might be the way that we can sort of move forward Going into things. So I've run us over the half hour, but I think this might be a nice place to pick up Next Thursday. I'll see some of you in between, but right now we have Christmas looming for those of you who celebrate Christmas I want to wish you a really heartfelt Christmas because this has been This has been a wonderful year for me because of this group Um, almost entirely because of this group and our activities together and our hopes for the future and our sharing of them in this sort of incredible way that lauren manages to edit and give back to us as a gift Uh And uh and things like that. So happy holidays and uh, I'll post this video as we usually do So you you've got it as a record, but thank you. Thank you for for being here very much We got church bells in zero to go over here. Oh my god. That's so perfect That is so perfect Surrounded Bye everybody take care take care everybody All the best