All right, welcome to the podcast on today's show. We're talking to Seth from Sweet Fin. Thanks for joining. People who don't know, what does your company do? We sell a lot of fresh, healthy bowls. We are based out of Santa Monica, California. That's where our first location was based out of. About eight years ago, we started, and we are a chef-driven premium poke concept based out of Santa Monica. What made you want to do this thing? Why food? Why fast casual? What did you see in the market where you were like, there's not, what's missing? You saw an opportunity. What was the sort of the first step? Oh man, so growing up, I was just obsessed with food. I was someone that was always in the kitchen, loved to cook, and I was one of the first kids, I feel like my age, that loved the Food Network, and I felt like it was the first person where it was socially acceptable to watch the Food Network. So I just always wanted to do something hospitality. Just love to host people and be in the kitchen and be around my family while we were cooking. And so I graduated college at USC, studied entrepreneurship, and I knew from a business standpoint, I wanted to build a brand in the food world. And from a business kind of perspective, I knew that the fast casual industry was really starting to blow up. What year was this at that time? It was like 2012, 2013, when I started to first think about ideas. Yeah, that's early. Yeah. For the fast casual, okay. Well, we had just come out of the 2008, 2009 recession. Right. And it was really the birth of fast casual. Chipotle was really taking off sweet green, shake shack. I remember Bo Lago in Boston was another, yeah. Anyway, yeah, that's when I was living there. It's all these fast casual places were like popping up everywhere. Yeah, so I saw void in the market. No one, everyone was really doing the same thing. It was like sandwiches, pizza, salads, and burgers. And I wanted to do something that was fresh and innovative. And I'd had poke a bunch of times and growing up in LA, I love sushi. It was just like part of how I would eat. And I also wanted to create a brand that was a little bit healthier than the other options and had 10 different ideas in my head from this different fast casual ideas. And I just kept coming back with my partner to like, how can we scale sushi? How can we do this? It's possible. Someone's gonna do it. It's never been done. And if we do it the right way, it's gonna take off. Was the goal, or at least the mindset was it always to have like a bunch of locations or did you wanna start on one? And then sort of piecemeal it? Like how did you see it from a business perspective in that way? I mean, I originally was like, we're gonna have hundreds of these things. That's what I wanted to do originally. I still wanna do that. I was gonna say, you still can. Yeah, we still will. So to start, we knew we needed to just prove the concept out. No one knew what we were talking about. So like imagine being in your mid-20s, you've never owned a restaurant. You've never really worked in a restaurant. You've never really owned a business.  Crazy. Investors don't really know what fast casual is. They like kinda get it. And they don't know what the category is. They don't understand what you're selling. So like we would go to investors and we're like, we're doing poke. Like poke, is that like a Facebook? The Facebook poke? Is that you're doing a social media company? Literally that was like the response to it yet. That's a good question. That's funny. And yeah, that was the one like Facebook was also. I remember the poking. I'm old enough to remember that. Yep.  This is healthy. It's customizable. It's portable. It really leans into like Asian flavors that were starting to become one. Where would you do it? Just like anywhere like picnic style? No, it was a funny.   So the way my partnership came about, was my friend Brett and myself from USC. And then we had this goal of having 100 poke shops within the first few years of opening. And so we're putting together a business plan and we quickly realized we had absolutely no idea what we were doing. So Brett was talking to his dad who's in South Africa and his dad's like, listen, you guys need a mentor. You need to like talk to someone who's done this before. So he's like, you should talk to this guy named Alan. He lives in LA. He's a little bit older than you. He's more established in the restaurant industry. So we meet with Alan and we're pitching him on this idea. Alan had been running the food and beverage operations at the W at the time in Westwood. And he's like, I think that's a cool idea. I've never done fast casual before either. So this is gonna be learning for me, but this could be something that we can work on together. So Alan joins and at the time, his chef at the W was a woman named Dakota Weiss who had just finished filming Top Chef. And so we all sit down, we're at the W, we pitched Dakota, Dakota, what do you think about this? And she's like, this is really weird, kind of a serendipitous moment. I've never really heard of Poké until this last week when one of my line cooks was like, hey, we should add Poké to the menu. So maybe this is meant to be.  And we formed Sweetfinn. But to go back to your question, like where would we do the tastings? We would have the tastings at the W in Westwood. Nice. But hopefully no one from the W in Westwood is watching this. We would like hide the food costs under the P&L of like the larger restaurant. I love that you're sharing this. So you're like having like all these tastings at the restaurant and no one would know like who are these guys, what are they doing here and why are they always eating like a ton of raw fish. And actually like Dakota hired on some of her cooks and her chefs that were working under her at the hotel and now still like there's some that actually still work for us. That's amazing. So it was a funny time. That's a good story. There's like some hustle in that. There's some scrappiness to it. I have a better story actually now that I'm like going back to that time. So like we're trying to raise money. We have like our first big investor dinner. So like. And how many have you had prior to this? These are like small things like having friends, like we're eating and stuff like nothing like this. Yeah, we're sitting at a table like 30 people.  I'm like trying to get the most important people that I know to like invest in this thing. So we all sit down at the W of course. And Dakota is this is the first time that she's presented the food in front of this many people. Everything that could go wrong kind of went wrong in terms of just like the pacing of the meal is just really long because she had never prepped for that many people and it just kind of going on and on and on. And at the end of the dinner, she was supposed to come out and kind of talk about the inspiration behind the menu and just introduce herself and get people excited. So she comes out. Yeah, I'm like sitting next to like the former CEO of Starbucks like literally everyone I could pull on like this is gonna be amazing. It's not going well. So she comes to the head of the table literally never forget this. I'm sitting next to one of my best friends and she goes, she keeps like clearing her throat clearing her throat. And she goes, I'm so sorry. I want to talk about the menu but my throat is closing up. And I'm just like, what? I'm like, I'm allergic to fish and I've been tasting the food and I'm having an allergic reaction.  Like she's allergic to fish and this is the first time I ever heard of this. This is so good. I'm just like, oh my God, this is not good. I can just imagine all the feelings you're doing all over. I was just like, I cannot believe this is happening. This is big. I ended up putting in more money than I wanted to or felt comfortable putting in to get store number one open because we didn't raise it all but it ended up working out okay. That's really good. We're doing something right now where it's like we're doing a three day pop up for this. We're trying to bring like LA's next magic castle. Same thing.  And I'm like looking forward to that moment or I'm like someone's gonna bomb here. Someone's just gonna choke, not show up. I don't know who it's gonna be but it's gonna be a disaster or it's gonna be like 140 degrees a day before and we don't have AC. It never grows as planned. No, and I like can't wait. And it's just gonna be, and I'm just gonna feel all of it and be like yeah, this is how it's gonna go. Well it gets you, you kind of also learn if you have partners like how they deal with stress, how they can adapt to certain situations. Yeah, totally. I freeze. No. It's not easy. I just look around and I'm like, yeah, this makes sense. Here we are again. Yeah. And so then, did any people that were at these days sign up? You know, like the loyal friends invested. And what's the check size you're getting at that point? So the- And how are you calculating how much you need also? That's kind of another, because you're doing two things. It's a business, but it's also like a restaurant. Right, so. Group-ish. Well, so the way we structured the business originally was let's raise money for store number one. And if this goes well, we'll figure that out after. And that's what we did. So we created an LLC. We knew that for store number one, it's gonna cost us $250,000 to build the first store out. We got $50,000 in tenant improvements and for marketing and PR and all of the things. We needed a runway because we didn't wanna be strapped for cash. Let's just say, I think we raised like $465,000. Of that, I think the majority of it, my partner and I put in, maybe like half. Yeah. From like savings that we had. Which is good. That's a good thing. But like, so we opened the first store and now at the time I wasn't used to it, but like everything that could go wrong from a construction standpoint did go wrong. Like things run back order. Like it was in January of like 2015. I'm like, okay, we're opening this week, awesome. The health inspector comes in and he like rips us a new one. Like we had this like hoity-toity like awesome design group come in and they're like, yeah. So in the bathroom, we have like these wood paneled walls that are gonna be etched and carved with these really cool designs. And then the guy comes in and he's like, you can't have wood on the walls. You can't. This needs to be FRP or something. Too much bacteria. Yeah, like all this stuff. I'm like, I didn't know this. That's why we hired you guys to like get this stuff. But like, anyway, the design ended up being great. You know, but the inspector came in and just like ripped us a new one. So he's like, oh, and by the way, I'm like going out of town for six weeks. So I'll see you in early March. We're like, okay, cool. So now we're paying like even more dead rent and not generating any revenue. Before we get into, let's say opening day, why the name Sweetfin, how did you land on the name? I just honestly remember writing down a million words and like being like, this sounds good, that sounds good. I mean, there's like the obvious like kind of sounds like sugarfish. I don't remember at the time thinking that, but I was like, yeah, sounds good. Sweetgreen wasn't around. They were like in DC. I'm like not going to say that I thought about them, but like it was probably some sort of subconscious like, but like I think I thought Sweetfin was a good name because like it was catchy and it was like pretty clear like what we did, the fin was related to seafood and fish and sweet was just kind of like a type of vernacular that we would use in Southern California. Like that's sweet. That's good. Like it was just like something positive. So it just like was positive vibes.  Like Hoki Poki, literally Hoki Poki, that was one. That's pretty bad. It was pretty bad. So I thought like, okay, we did go with the name. Yeah, that worked out. That's smart. A lot of inspiration from different sources. And then what was opening day like? So with the delay, it was like actually a positive thing.  And it was two giant photos of these like really delicious looking Poké bowls. And mind you, like we were the, I don't know if I said the story, but like we were the first Poké concept to open outside of Hawaii as like a standalone concept. Like no one knew what this was. People love sushi. And so we were in Santa Monica and crazy enough in 2015, like it was a little bit of a health food desert. There were not a lot of like fresh, healthy places. It was crazy to think about today. Tokaya wasn't there, like sweet green, like all of the fast casuals, Erwan, like no one was there. So we had these like two giant images of these Poké bowls that people would walk by and there's a lot of tech companies around there at the time, they're like, that looks good. That looks good. And so like day one, I'm from LA. I got all my friends, you know, my family and just like we just built a lot of like hype over like basically the year leading up to opening. And I was worried like no one's gonna show up and ends up we crush it out of the gates, like literally hundred person lines down the block. And to the point where we're like, we cannot keep up with this. So we would close between the hours of two to five PM and we'd put a gone fishing sign on the door. So like we could prep and get ready for the night. That's really smart. And so then we had all these, like we didn't, again, we didn't think any of this through. We're like, okay, so we're gonna have these like homemade taro chips and these crispy onion toppings. And it's gonna be like very similar to like what you would get at a sushi restaurant. We didn't have a fryer. So everything we were doing, we were frying on like a tabletop like induction burner. Sure, yeah. So I had someone in the store working the night shift 24 hours a day frying stuff. And then we would fry like food at the W hotel and then like drive it over. And it was just like, but like the first year people couldn't believe how well, like we did almost 4,000 bucks a foot. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. It was like people were like, what? Yeah. And you know, we had a really good product. I thought we built a good brand quickly. We were like really into the community but it was a little bit lucky in that like we were the first concept and then a lot of people came and copied us and a lot of the category really exploded. And so there was a lot of press about it. So like a lot of the food writers were writing about it. And so whenever, anytime there was like an article where there was LA Times or Bon Appetit or GQ and they were talking about this category as a whole we were always getting like the headline photo and the hero image because like they're like, oh yeah, sweet fit. Yeah. So it was helpful from a PR and marketing standpoint. And are you still going back to all the investors that sort of passed them at the beginning and like trying to show them, hey look, we need to move quickly. We're trying to get the blah, blah, blah locations or is that? Well, so we paid back the investors really quickly. They got their preferred return really quickly like everyone's really happy. And so, then we're just kind of trying to figure out like, okay, what's next? So we went and raised another round. How soon after the first one opened? It was like within a year. Okay. We probably could have gone faster. And I actually remember my partner Alan, the guy who's like a little bit, not a little bit, a lot of it at the time, more experienced than us. He's like, guys, don't get used to this. I've opened a lot of restaurants, this is not how it goes. Like we could not screw up. Like everything we did was like, great, great, great, great. And the sales are great. That like it didn't matter what our labor was. It didn't matter what our cogs were because like just top line cures everything. And are you working inside the shop? What are you doing for like the first, maybe a month or two? I was there every day, three months, like four months, open to close almost. I knew like every regular like, and that was really important both to me and I think like part of the success of what we were doing because like it really humanized the store, the concept. I like, hey Mike, I like, I literally knew everyone and I'd get to know them and like people like really become regulars quickly. Yeah. What's the hard part of it? So in my head, it's always like when you're playing with fish, things can, you know, the shelf life isn't that high. And so is that the hard part to figure out? I mean, I think there's a few things. Obviously the frying is one of them that you figure that out. Yeah, I mean like, yes, we have like a very strict 48 hour, you know, product in, product out. And so it's very easy to over order if you're not careful and you're not budgeting correctly and you don't basically like, you're not good at projecting. And now that we have eight years of historical data, we're pretty good at understanding like, what we're gonna sell, what we're not gonna sell and labor, you know, like, this is not like taking a burger patty and just like putting it on a flat top. Like we were getting like fillets of fish.  Like we're dealing with like normal back of house team members that we have. So how can we create like replicate this process or create, you know, processes that we can take to other locations, you know, remain efficient, but also have a product that is great. And so like what are competitors at the time we're doing, which was like the easy way out is like, they're just buying pre-cut fish, like frozen fish, like we didn't do that because everything, especially at the time, like we would always talk about everything's homemade, handmade, chef driven, you know, like we take Dakota's chef driven principles and like all of, you know, the way you run a proper kitchen, whether it's fine dining or fast casuals the same way. And a lot of people were taking shortcuts like Cisco, a food distributor was selling like poke sauce, whereas we were making our own hot sauce and poke sauce and pickling vegetables and, you know, doing things the right way, which set us apart, but from a labor and just off standpoint is more expensive and challenging. How did you guys arrive at the pricing of it? And so was it just like, what's the market gonna pay? Did you just take your costs and 4X, 5X them? Yeah, I mean like, I think, you know what, in the restaurant business, at least for fast casual, like the two big costs that investors look like, look at that are important. There's three main costs on the piano, labor, cogs and your occupancy costs, but your cogs and your labor is, you know, what they call your prime costs. And so you wanna keep the prime costs under 60%, which means typically you want your food costs in the low 30 to high 20 range. And so Dakota would create recipes, we would cost it out and we'd have a theoretical food costs and then we'd, you know, do the inverse math of like, well, what do we need to do to have a 30% food cost and that's basically what our food costs would be. And if the numbers seem like, hey, this bowl is gonna be $18, then we would either have to substitute ingredients or change the recipe to make it more palatable. Different serving size, yeah. But like we had other restaurants to compare against, like, okay, we know that we plan the same sandbox as a Mendocino Farms, right? So what are they charging for a sandwich or a sweet green, what are they charging for a salad? Or if you go to Air One, what are they charging? So like we just wanted to be within the same price range. Yeah, and obviously the more locations you have, sort of the better that can get. And so at what point do you start going to location 234? So we raised that next round. And how big was that raise? That was two million. Okay. Should have raised more. Okay. We could have raised a lot more. Always the case. Yeah, always the case. The actual number one, like always take more money when you can. Yeah. And we definitely could have, cause we were really hot. And what year was this at this time? I was like 2016. Okay. And so we basically quickly signed four more leases. Okay. And in that two million dollar raise, not only did we have like the friends and family participate, but we started to get notice from like people in the industry. So I, through a connection, met a guy who became a mentor, my name, David Swinghammer. And David. Swinghammer? Yeah. Okay. Sick name. That's a great name. Wow. And he was co-founder and CEO of Shake Shack. And. Heard of it. Yeah. Small burger chain. And you know, partners with Danny Meyer, one of the first employees partners at Union Square Hospitality. And I remember he was flying out to LA. I got put in touch with him. And we met in Santa Monica. And I was like, this is what we're doing. This is the food. And he's like, I really like this. This is awesome. Like I want to be involved in this. So he put, you know, a good chunk of money in and he was working for private equity company at the time. And the managing partner, founder of that private equity company put some money in. I remember we had like a classroom session with him. David and we like, you know, had the whiteboard and we were like, okay, where are we going to be in five years? And we're supposed to be at like 70 locations. Now we're a little behind, but we'll do that.  And when we went to, you know, real estate partners because we weren't a credit tenant, we were in a new category. That was another thing. Like not only were we trying to convince investors to invest in sweetfin, but to find location number one and to get the door open, we had to convince real estate owners.  And again, like things happened for a reason. Thank God that didn't work. And we ended up opening in Santa Monica, but I remember the broker called us and like, it's like, you know, we've been talking to ownership and they don't know what this poke thing is. And they don't think it's going to work.  Again, I'm like another setback. This is just taking so long. So then I learned from that mistake. And I was like, okay, if we're going to have to pitch landlords and real estate owners, we need to put together really professional deck. So I'm like, okay, let's put together real estate deck of who we are. And like no one else is going to send this to landlords. So that's what we did.  And I was like, okay, well, we're not doing any personal, we're not signing any personal guarantees on these leases anymore. And they're like, well, what do you mean? You guys are nobody. Well, we have this person invested and like, here's the deck. And we kind of like- And they accepted that? Finally, yeah. That's insane. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's pretty unbelievable. Yeah. And it worked. I don't think I've ever had a lease that didn't have a personal guarantee, but we'll see. Well, I mean, so like we would have like corporate guarantees in the company. Yeah. Like, but I was- You weren't personally available. Yeah, like the first couple, like I think like two or three, like we had limited personal PG's and- And were these like 10 year leases or five year leases that you signed? 10 years, we usually signed a 10 year or two fives. Okay. How quickly do you get to 20 locations? No. Recently. About two and about two weeks. And what do you see in the marketplace that like what has shifted is Poke more of a common thing. Now people understand it. It's interesting. So when we opened, we were the first. Very quickly, we were not the first. There was just an explosion all over Southern California.  They'd order the entire menu. That was probably one of the reasons why we were doing so well. Like they'd take their notepad and like they'd literally like copy our entire menu and then they'd like rip us off. And it was kind of annoying, but- Wow. The thing with our concept and the category is if you don't do it right, the barriers to entry are very low because- Right, that makes sense. Yeah, so like my business thesis when I wanted to do something in fast casuals, I was like, okay, how can we have a concept where you don't need to invest a couple million dollars into a space? Like how can we do this for a few hundred thousand dollars? How do we not have to compete with sweet green for real estate? How can we take a non-traditional piece of real estate and convert it into our use? Which you can't just do like with a normal restaurant because you need a hood and there's all these requirements. Yeah, it's hard. So with that, what I didn't think about the flip side is well, if we can do it, anyone can do it. So like you'd have these franchisees of Pinkberry and Subway.  And so the category took a lot of punches. And it happened. Did you see it as an opportunity being like, okay, well, maybe they can franchise. Maybe you just partner with them. Well, the space, the poke space is so fragmented that believe it or not, I'm always positive. With only 20 units, which is tiny, I think we're the biggest concept in the country that's not franchising. So like that tells you all you need to know. There are like a good amount of groups. Like there's Poke Works and a few others that have like 60, 70 locations, all franchise. Okay. We didn't wanna do that because like we were nervous. Like can we hand this playbook to someone and can they replicate it and not screw up the product of the brand? Yeah. And we weren't ready for that. So now we've spent like the last two years getting to that point where like now with the right partners, like before I came here, I was talking to some like airport operators who wanna take this concept into airports and non-traditional venues like stadiums and stuff. Now I'm like, okay, I think we can do this because like we've built the systems and done certain things that we can hand this off to someone. Does that mean you've had to hire like an operations person that has scaled some of these businesses or I guess these concepts? Like what's the thing that gives you the fuzzies around the systems and procedures? Is that you've seen it break enough times so you sort of know where things go wrong? Yeah, and we've gone really good at writing SOPs. We've moved to co-packing for our sauces. So like one of the, like we have eight sauces. Despite how good your recipes are, you can make recipe videos, you can do it all. When you're in the store, someone's like, literally like, I like it with a little bit more sauce or if we replace the oranges with lemon juice, it basically tastes the same. So like you just need consistency and we're not getting consistency because like that is obviously the proteins are important. But like, and it's all important, but like the sauce is like the first thing you taste. And if it's not consistent across all of our stores, then we're in big trouble. So like we moved to a co-packer, the sauces are coming in great, they're consistent. Like they taste exactly the way they should taste. And that was a big thing. And same with our frying issues never got easier. They only got harder. So like we moved from the W hotel to like some other random restaurant. I love to share a bit of that, Debbie. I found it so funny. It's such a good story.  Like you would get a katsuya at our store in Topanga in Woodland Hills. That was a nightmare. Because number one, like imagine trying to hire people to fry all day long, like a miserable job. It was not great. So they would call out and then people, and then our stores would be like, where are my crispy onions? Like where are my taro chips? Like all of these things we want to do. So we're like, okay, we can't do that. The other part about it was like, we had literally a courier, like a document messenger service. Like if you were getting escrow documents, they were the ones that were occurring around our fried onions.  Like it was just a nightmare. So finally you found someone to coat back our onions, our garlic and our taro chips. So like you could open a sweet fin and we could ship you all of the fried goods and the sauces. And all you have to do is like do some sautéing, cut fish and vegetables. And we're good. So that's what we focus on. Okay. Okay. I find that so funny. There's so many little things to these businesses that just make them tick or not tick. And it's like a fascinating to think about how big do you want to take this thing? Now that you're here, it sounds like you're ready to scale round two, I guess. Round three. I'm confident in the brand that we built. I think despite the fact that the category has taken some punches, I think we've differentiated ourselves in a lot of different ways. And you know, we dropped the name Poke from our name like six years ago. So now we just go by sweet fin. And so I think that opens up a lot of different opportunities for us to innovate from a product standpoint, which we're in the process of doing. What are you coming out with? What are you doing? We are coming out with some grain bowls and some salads and some like basically ways in which we can increase order frequency if you don't want to have raw fish multiple times a week. Yeah. Different offerings that makes sense. Yeah. We've talked to a lot of people and like we come for your amazing sauces and bases and toppings. That's why we come back. So if you offered another protein, for example, something that's more appealing. It actually started with a catering client, the NFL. They're like, hey, we want you to do 100, 400 bowls but 100 this certain way or like, okay. And we did that. So product innovation, differentiating ourselves in the market, creating a strong brand. I mean, we've shown that, so we'll have 20 locations like 15 in LA. We've shown that like we can saturate a market and they can all work. So what is the next geographical area that we want to go after? Is it Phoenix, Scottsdale Metro? Is it Vegas? Yeah, what is it? Where do you go? Texas, Florida, New York, DC, Boston. At the end of the day, we always talk about our mission is to fuel life through freshness and to provide healthy, affordable, approachable bowls and food for a guest. And I think that message resonates with many parts of the country and we've seen the category take off all over the world. Who's your demo? So when you get like your demographic, how old are they? Are they on their first job? Are they newly graphed? I'm just thinking like, who's, what are they, is it everybody? It's honestly like, it's amazing. Like I'll sit in some more stores and you'll see all races, ages, sexes, types of people come in, which is, it's rewarding to see. But like you always have your like core demo. And like our core demo is probably college educated at a certain income level where they're able to and willing to spend $15 to $17 for a healthy lunch or dinner. I'd say college to 40s is, I mean, it's a big demo. But like when you look at like our social statistics and kind of like all of that demographic information, we skew like 60, 40 female, which is interesting. That is interesting. Yeah. I guess it's cause they're more health conscious than men.  Yeah. Do you have a tattoo of Sweet Van? No. Would you ever get one? If we sold for a lot of money, I'd do anything. When do you think you'll sell it? Or when do you want to sell it? I keep my options open. Yeah. We keep our, it's a group. There's, you know, myself, Bret Nalon. And I think we are really proud of what we built. Yeah. We're proud of what we built. So like we see the, we see the opportunities to continue to grow, but never say never. Yeah. When you think about fish just at a high level, are more, or is it being consumed more than it was when you guys first got into the industry? Or is it like wavering? Yeah. Like obviously it would be great for us to be the first in a market, but the benefit of not being first in the market is like people understand. They're educated. Yeah, they're educated. So like you don't need to educate people. Like the sugar fish are educated enough people, I would say. Yeah. I think people are eating healthier, for sure. Okay. And pescatarian or like fish is, I mean like actually was reading this yesterday. If you look at like the sushi market, it's like compounding growth every year since the 80s. Even like I was reading this crazy article about supermarket sushi. How much of that market is growing? Like I think people really like Japanese flavors is something we really like always lean into. And I think people love raw fish. Like and it's not just like a coastal thing. Yeah. It's all over. You need to meet the customer or the consumer where they are. And I think optionality is a trend that's only continuing. Like people want more options. Sure. And so we're trying to strike that balance of providing enough options, but also staying true to who we are. And the way I think about it is also the fish is probably the highest cost protein. And so it's not, yeah. By you dropping other protein, it makes sense. You know the numbers. Yeah. Absolutely. We got smoked during COVID because of like input costs. Like our salmon prices from, we have Faro Island salmon and that like, we were buying it at like 9.95 a pound, you know, processed to our door and they went up to like 18 bucks a pound. I mean, like it was crazy. And does that come down since or is it still? Yeah, it's come down a bit, not 100%. Okay. Fish is expensive. It's really expensive. Like you could buy a chicken breast for a fraction of the price. What market do you want to go to next? Whichever market that wants us. I don't know. I think like we do well in warm, like we definitely do well in warm weather climates. Okay. So like we want sunshine. We want to be around a demographic that cares about health, that's active. The markets I just said, like Arizona, I think like certain parts of Texas would do well. But Florida I think would be killer. And then like, I think the East Coast, like we get so many DMs from people who either move from LA to New York or come to New York to visit LA that love sweeping. They're like, when are you opening sweeping in New York? Yeah. And it's something we've looked at so many times and I'm just like, it's so scary because the rents are so insane. Yeah. But I think we would do really well there.  And that sort of style thrives in a New York, Boston, DC sort of market. Tell people where they can find you. Where they can support. All over LA. Orange County and San Diego. So most of LA. On Instagram, atsweetfin. Atsweetfin. Everything atsweetfin. Seth, thank you. Thank you for coming on the pod. Thank you so much for the support and making it to the end of the episode. If you haven't already, please leave a review and share the episode with your friends. If you never want to miss a beat on all things entrepreneurship, make sure to follow us on socials or daily content. See you next Tuesday for another great episode.


Welcome to the Hindu News Analysis by Shankar Iyer's Academy for the day 25th February 2021. These are the list of news articles chosen for today's discussion. They are given along with the page numbers of different editions. The link for the handwritten notes in barrier format and the time stamping for the discussed articles are provided in the description box as well as in the comment section for the benefit of mobile phone users. Now let us move on to the analysis of the first news article. Now see this lead column from editorial page which was written in the context of fall of the government in the union territory of Puducherry. So as you know few MLAs of ruling congress party have resigned which led to a fall in the majority of the government which resigned later. A similar case happened in 2019 in the state of Karnataka. So when you look at both the cases you find that the government's lost majority and resigned. But there is a familiar pattern to the resignations of members of the legislative assembly. Such resignations are invariably leading to the fall of the government and the resignations are taking place only from the ruling parties in the states which are opposed to the ruling parties at the centre. So in this context let us have a brief discussion on the political system in the union territories and why the present system or the present set up in union territories with legislature is not a democratically feasible one. The syllabus for this news article is given below. See at the time of independence there was an abundance of princely states and former British India provinces. The Indian constitution that came into force in 1950 it recognized four different categories of territories in schedule one. In this part a comprised former British India provinces having a governor and a legislature and part b comprised former princely states that was governed by Raj Pramukh while part c was a combination of princely states and chief commissioners provinces that was being governed by a chief commissioner. So when you see the administrators of all these three categories were appointed by the president and part d comprised the lone territory of Handaman and Nicobar islands which had a lieutenant governor who was appointed by the central government. So this part formed the basis for the creation of union territories. So now let's see the basic difference between a state and an union territory. See a state is a unit in itself with elected representatives and its own government. They make the law and in effect they run the state as the central government runs the country. In addition a state also has got a governor who was appointed by the president with powers equivalent to that of the president. So as you can see there is a clear division of powers with respect to the center and state and they are supreme in their own spears. When you take a union territory it is administered wholly by the central government through the lieutenant governor as appointed by the president making regulations for the peace progress and good government of these union territories. Further a union territory can even have an elected government like that of Puducherry, Delhi and the most recent union territory of Jammu and Kashmir but the administrative powers in this case are tilted in the favor of the lieutenant governor who is appointed by the president on the advice of the union government. So coming back to the article it says that if the ruling party in the union territory and at the center are different as in the case of Puducherry it becomes very difficult to administer for the ruling government in the union territory. So the basic question here is why the constitution makers or the parliament thought to provide a legislature and a council of minister to some of the union territories. The reason is to fulfill the democratic aspirations of the people of these union territories. So therefore the creation of a legislature and a council of ministers is logical and it is found to be in line with the policy of the state to promote democracy. See article 239a was brought in through the 14th constitutional amendment in the year 1962. This amendment enabled the parliament to create legislatures for the union territories and accordingly the union government enacted the government of union territory act in the year 1963 to create legislature for certain union territories and as per article 239a legislature is a body that is elected or partly elected and partly nominated. Further they can be a council of ministers without a legislature or they can be a legislature as well as a council of ministers. See in parliamentary system and in our constitutional scheme a legislature is a law making body and a legislative proposal is initiated by the government which is responsible to the legislature. So neither can the legislature exist without a council of ministers nor can the council of ministers exist without a legislature. Interestingly in the case of union territories there can be a legislature without a council of minister or a council of ministers without a legislature. Similarly a legislature that is partly elected and partly nominated is another absurdity. So the most shocking fact is a simple amendment in the government of union territories act in of 1963 can create a legislature with more than 50% of nominated members. Now here comes a question whether will a nominated house promote representative democracy. Now coming back to Puducherry case the issue of nomination of members to the Puducherry assembly has raised a huge controversy and the government of union territories act of 1963 provides for a 33 member house for Puducherry of home. Three are to be nominated by the central government. So when the union government nominated three members to the assembly without even consulting the government it was challenged in the court. Then the supreme court in K. Lakshmi Narayanan case of 2019 held that the union government is not required to consult the union territory government for nominating members to the assembly and the nominated members have got the same right to vote as the elected members. Also you should note that this 1963 act does not provide any criteria or qualifications to nominate members to assembly. So if a different party runs the government in the union territory this provision can be used by the union government with the vengeance has that which happened in Puducherry. Now here comes the most controversial part that is the role of an administrator. See article 239 says that every union territory shall be administered by the president through an administrator to be appointed by the president. In some union territories including Puducherry the designation of administrator is lieutenant governor and in other union territory it is just an administrator. See the author says that the union territories were never given a fully democratic setup with necessary autonomy and the power is tilted towards administrator. With the right see the administrator has got the right to disagree with the decisions of the council of ministers and he can then refer them to the president for a final decision and the president will finally decide on the advice of the union government. So this shows that it is the union government which finally determines the disputed issue and the administrator can in fact disagree with all crucial decisions including day to day policy decisions that is taken by the state government. Now here some respite was provided through NCD of Delhi vices the union of India of 2019. See this NCD of Delhi vices the union of India was a civil appeal. That was heard before the supreme court of India by a five judge constitution bench of the court and the constitution bench of the supreme court said that the administrator should not misuse this power to frustrate the functioning of the elected government in the territory and should use it after all methods have failed to reconcile the differences between him and the council of ministers but this verdict is often ignored by the administrators. So in simple words no union government really likes the idea of a free and autonomous government in the union territories and therefore it tries to control it through the administrator. The weaponization of the constitutional provision happens fully when the union territory is ruled by a different political party. So experience shows that the union territory is having legislature with ultimate control vested in the central administrator are not workable. So the governments at the center should respect the people's mandate and therefore they should not involve or interfere in the day to day policies of union territories for better efficiency and governance. With this let's move on to the next news article. This opiate article talks about the role of federalism or decentralization in the context of human capital and the issues associated with it. Let us see these aspects now the syllabus for this news article is highlighted below for your reference. First what is human capital? See human capital corresponds to any stock of knowledge or characteristics that the worker has which contributes to his or her productivity. Such knowledge or characteristics could be innate as well as acquired. So therefore human capital is an intangible asset and it consists of the knowledge skills and health that people invest in and accumulate throughout their lives which enables them to realize the potential as productive members of society. Economic growth and development depend on human capital and it is the key factor to end extreme poverty and to create more inclusive societies. Thus to develop human capital there is a need to invest in interventions like nutrition, health, health care, quality education, jobs and skills etc. Now let's see what is India's position in in this investment. See the position of India in its investment in interventions is not so appreciable and this is visible in the rank and score of India in human capital index of 2020. See the index measures the contribution of health and education to the productivity of the individuals and countries. India's rank is 116th and it is scored just 0.49%. So this means that a child born in India today will be only 49% as productive when she grows up as she could be if she enjoyed complete education and full health and along with this there are also other surveys and reports in which India did not perform well. The main reason behind this is that the government interventions did not materialize. See interventions in health, education and skill are better in India and we have many schemes for that such as the Poshan Abhyan and the Samagra Sikh Shah Abhyan etc. But the problem is these schemes or interventions did not materialize into better outcomes and one of the reason for this is India's issues around decentralization. See studies suggest a positive correlation between decentralization and human capital that is the better decentralization better will be the human capital. See generally decentralization is delegation of authority throughout the organization and in polity a government is said to be decentralized when power is taken away from the central government and state governments and it is given to a third tier of the government which is called as local government. So as you know local government is government that is set up at the village and district level. In 1992 constitution was amended by 73rd and 74th constitutional amendments in order to make the third tier more powerful and effective. See the 73rd amendment is about rural local governments or the Pajayati Raj institutions and the 74th amendment made the provisions related to urban local governments or Nagar Palikas or municipalities. Further on coming to the fiscal front in order to address the imbalances of revenue between the center and states the constitution provides for fiscal transfers through tax devolution and grants innate. See these are covered under the section distribution of revenues between the union and the states of the constitution which comes under articles 268 to 281. Say for example article 275 provides the provision of general and specific statutory grants under which parliament can make grants to the states which are in need of financial assistance. Additionally center is empowered to provide discretionary grants under article 282 of the constitution for public purpose. Now let us see what are the issues. See the first issue is that under constitution the state governments determine how local governments are empowered. See we have the 11th and 12th schedules of the constitution which list the matters on which the Pajayati Raj institutions and the municipalities respectively have powers. These matters are identified from state list and they are listed in the respective schedules to be transferred to the Pajayati Raj institutions or municipalities but the actual transfer of these functions depend upon the state legislation. See each state decides how many of these matters would be transferred to local bodies. So this results in vast disparities when it comes to the role played by the local governments. The second issue is with respect to the centralized nature of India's fiscal architecture which restricts state autonomy in developmental issues. This is seen in the way how statutory and discretionary grants are provided. See the fact is that discretionary grants form a larger part of central grants to the state when compared to statutory grants. It is because the centrally sponsored schemes of the government are being funded through article 282 only and not under article 275 because article 275 requires the recommendation from finance commission in order to provide that grant but grants under article 282 are discretionary and these centrally sponsored schemes covers most of the social sector subjects under state and concurrent list. Thus the state lose their autonomy in allocation of resources on most development issues within their jurisdiction and also they lose their fiscal space. So therefore they cannot implement plans according to their needs. Coming to the next issue about the state finance commissions. See in many states state finance commissions have not been constituted and state finance commissions are mandated by constitution to make recommendations for matters like tax devolution and grants in aid to the third tire governments. So based on these issues authors have suggested these solutions that are given below. So we hope that all these will ensure a better way forward towards developing human capital. With this info let's move on to the next news article. Now let us take up this news article. It talks about an analysis that was done by the centre for science and environment on air pollution levels in Indian cities. The analysis was done by comparing the winter pollution levels of Indian cities between 2019 and 2020 and the research found that the levels of PM 2.5 or particulate matter 2.5 in winter worsened in 43 out of 99 cities in 2020 in comparison to 2019 levels and only 19 cities registered substantial improvement in air quality. The cities with the worst pollution spikes in 2020 over 2019 includes Kolkata, Gurugram, Lucknow, Jaipur, Vishak Patnam, Agra, Navibumbai and Jodhpur and Mysuru is the least polluted city followed by Satna in Madhya Pradesh and Kochi in Kerala and also Ghassia Bhat is the most polluted city in the northern belt. So in this context let us have a good understanding about particulate matter. The syllabus for this news article See particulate matter also known as particle pollution is a complex mixture of extremely small particles and liquid droplets. This particulate matter is made up of a number of components which includes acids like nitrates and sulphates, then organic chemicals, metals, soil or dust particles, then particle bound water, hydrocarbons etc. In addition biological components such as allergen which includes pollen, dust mites and microbial compounds like fungi are also a part of this particulate matter. Also know that these particles come in many sizes and shapes and can be made up of hundreds of different chemicals. Here you should know that particles which are of 10 micrometers in diameter or smaller than that generally have the capability to pass through the throat and nose and they enter into our lungs. So once they are inhaled these particles can affect the heart and lungs and they are capable of causing serious health effects to us. So in this regard particle pollution can be grouped into two categories. The first category consists of inhalable coarse particles such as those that are found near roadways and dusty industries. These particles are larger than 2.5 micrometers and smaller than 10 micrometers in diameter. The second type of particle pollution is made by fine particles and these are those that can be found in smoke and haze. They range to about 2.5 micrometers in diameter or smaller than that and these particles can be directly emitted from sources like forest fires or they can even be formed when gases from power plants industries and automobiles come in contact with the air. Now let's see what are the sources of this particulate matter. See some are emitted directly from a source like construction sites or unpaved roads, fields, smokestacks or fires etc but most of the particles form in the atmosphere as a result of complex reactions of chemicals such as sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxide which are usually pollutants that are emitted from power plants industries and automobiles. Now let's see the dangers posed by these particulate matter. See this particulate matter contains microscopic solids or liquid droplets that are so small that they can be inhaled and cause serious health problems. Particles less than 10 micrometers in diameter can get deep into your lungs and some may even get into your bloodstream. Of these particles those that are less than 2.5 micrometers in diameter are known as fine particles or PM 2.5 and it is this particle that pose the greatest risk to health. Now according to the World Health Organization almost 3.7 million premature deaths annually are attributed to this outdoor air pollution and about 80% of those deaths are due to heart disease and stroke while another 20% are from respiratory illness and cancers related to exposure to this particulate matter 2.5. Fine particles are also the main cause of reduced visibility or what we call as haze and this can be very dangerous to waterists. As you know we frequently hear about accidents on the Ammona Express Highway due to this reduced visibility that is caused by haze. According to the National Ambient Hair Quality Standards of the Central Pollution Control Board of India, the 24 hour average of particulate matter 10 is 100 microgram or cubic meter and 60 microgram or cubic meter for particulate matter 2.5. With this information let us move on to the next news article. This news article mentions that a new chairman has taken charge of the National Commission for Schedule Caste. Say in this context let us know about this National Commission for Schedule Caste. First it is a constitutional body that was set up under Article 338 of Indian Constitution. This is a new commission that came into existence in 2004 and it was inserted into the constitution by the 89th Constitutional Amendment Act of 2003. It is because previously there was a single commission as National Commission for Schedule Caste and Schedule Tribes which has now been bifurcated into National Commission for Schedule Caste and National Commission for Schedule Tribes. Its objective is to oversee the implementation of the various safeguards that is provided to the Schedule Caste under the constitution and further under Article 338 the constitution is assigned these duties and functions to the commission. The first duty is to investigate and monitor all matters relating to the safeguards provided for the Schedule Caste under the constitution or under any other law or order and to evaluate the working of such safeguards. Secondly the National Commission for Schedule Caste has to inquire into specific complaints with respect to the deprivation of rights and safeguards of Schedule Caste. Next to participate and advise in the planning process of socio-economic development of the Schedule Caste and to evaluate the progress of the development under the union or state. It also needs to present reports to the president upon the working of those safeguards either annually or otherwise and such reports should contain the recommendations regarding the measures to be taken by the concerned states or union territories for the effective implementation of safeguards and other measures for the protection, welfare and socio-economic development of Schedule Caste etc. Now to undertake these duties or functions the National Commission for Schedule Caste has been given all the powers of a civil court with respect to the matters displayed below and most importantly the constitution provides for mandatory consultation by the union and state governments with the commission on all major policy matters that affects the Schedule Caste and this is in accordance with Article 338 clause 9 so this helps the commission to keep track of all the major policy decisions legislative or executive action that are taken by the government of India or any state government for that matters and further as per clause 10 the commission is also required to discharge similar functions with regard to the Anglo-Indian community as it does with respect to this Schedule Caste that is the commission has to investigate all matters relating to the constitution and other legal safeguards for the Anglo-Indian community and they should report it to the president. Coming to the composition of the National Commission for Schedule Caste it consists of a chairperson, a wise chairperson and three other members and they are appointed by the president. The conditions of service and tenure of office are as per the 2004 rules according to which the chairperson shall be appointed from among eminent social political workers belonging to the Schedule Caste and at least one member shall be appointed from among women. See this article which is with reference to the PLI scheme for pharmaceuticals high-t hardware the news is that union cabinet has approved the production linked incentives scheme for the pharmaceuticals and IT hardware sectors see the PLI scheme for pharmaceuticals will be for nine years till 2028 to 2029 it will benefit domestic manufacturers and also it will help in creating employment. So this scheme is expected to promote the production of high value products in the country and also to increase the value addition in exports. Now coming to the PLI scheme for high-t hardware such as laptops, tablets, all-in-one PCs and servers under this an incentive will be given on net incremental sales of goods manufactured in India for a period of four years this is an important segment to promote manufacturing under half minute bar Bharat has there is a huge import reliance for these items at present. Further it also announces the development of the electronics ecosystem in the country. See both the schemes promote investment in these sectors and as a result the employment opportunities will be enhanced and if you see the PLI scheme has been in use for the last many months. Initially the government has announced a PLI scheme for medical devices, mobile phones and specified active pharmaceutical ingredients. Later this scheme was expanded to many sectors including food processing, telecom, electronics, textiles, speciality steal, automobiles etc and as said before today's news is that this scheme is now being extended to pharmaceuticals and IT hardware. So just have an idea that in any PLI scheme an incentive that is the production linked incentive of certain percentage is offered to companies on incremental sales of goods manufactured in India and are covered under target segments. See incremental sales is the key word if a company and a PLI scheme sold 100 units last year and if the same company sells 120 years this year then incentive will be offered for that increased 20 units by the government. With this we have come to the end of this particular news article. With this let us now move on to the practice question discussion. Now look at this prelims practice question it says consider the following statements with reference to particulate matter. Statement one says that particles of size more than 2.5 micrometers but less than 10 micrometers in diameter pose the greatest risk to health when compared to particles of less than 2.5 micrometers. Statement two the 24 hour average for particulate matter 10 as assigned by the national ambient air quality standards is 100. So we need to find the correct statement. So when you look at statement one it is incorrect because particles less than 2.5 micrometers in diameter which is also called as fine particles are particulate matter 2.5. Statement one is incorrect because it is not those particle matters of size more than 2.5 meters that pose the great health but rather it is the particles that is less than 2.5 micrometers in diameter which is also called as fine particles or particulate matter 2.5 which poses a greater threat or a greater risk to human health. And when you take statement two as seen in the discussion according to the national ambient air quality standards of central pollution control board the 24 hour average of particulate matter 10 is 100 microgram or cubic meter and 60 microgram or cubic meter for particulate matter 2.5. So therefore second statement is right and since the question asks us to identify the right statement the right answer is option b that is 2 only. Now look at this question about the national commission for schedule cast the question wants us to identify the correct statement. So the first statement is the constitution mandates for consultation by the union and state government with the national commission for schedule cast on all major policy matters affecting schedule cast. Second statement says that the national commission for schedule cast is required by the constitution to discharge similar functions with regard to the other backward classes or OBCs and the Anglundan community as it does with respect to the schedule cast. Now we have to identify the correct statement. When you look at statement one as seen in the discussion this consultation is mandatory under constitution and it was mandated under article 338 clause 9. So therefore this statement is correct. Now when you look at the second statement this is incorrect because see before 2018 under article 338 clause 10 the national commission for schedule cast was required to discharge similar functions to the OBCs and Anglundan community. But the constitution 102nd amendment act of 2018 omitted OBC from the article. So at present currently the national commission for schedule cast will discharge similar functions only to the Anglundan community. Therefore the right answer is option a that is one only. Now look at this prelims practice question regarding the performance linked incentive. So we need to identify the wrong statement. So statement one a says that it will benefit domestic manufacturers also helps in creating employment. Statement b it promotes the production of high value products in the country and increase the value addition and exports. Statement c it reduces the import dependence of a country and statement d the scheme is applicable only to electronic products and medical devices. So when you look into these four statements based on the discussion we can say that statement a b and c is correct. But when you look at statement d you can find that this statement says that this scheme is applicable only to electronic products and medical devices. Here you should know that this scheme is not only limited to these two sectors but it is expanded to many sectors like food processing, telecom, electronics, textiles, automobiles etc. So based on this analysis we can come to a conclusion that the incorrect option among these four is option d. Look at this prelims question is it wants us to identify the organization that releases the human capital index. The options provided are international labour organization, World Bank, International Monetary Fund and Asian Development Bank. So as we know this human capital index is a report that is prepared by the World Bank which measures about the countries that are best in mobilizing the economic and professional potential of its citizens. So therefore the right answer is option b that is World Bank. The list of main's practice question is displayed here. You can write your answers and post them in the comment section below. With this we have come to the end of today's news analysis. 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Good afternoon everyone. Thanks for being here. I thought I'd spend a few minutes today talking about where we're at after the end of the session. There are about 60 bills that passed during the last two weeks of the session, and as you know, at that time of year, things can change quickly or be added at the last minute without much notice. So as is typical, I won't be making any specific decisions on individual bills until we receive and review them using the five days I have to take action. And just for awareness, I don't have any bills on my desk at this point. Legislative counsel will take whatever time they need to review the bills and get signatures from legislative leaders before I start getting bills and they typically come in batches. That's a long way of saying you shouldn't expect any action this week or early next week. Taking a step back in January, I presented a budget to the legislature that was balanced, prioritized for monitors in communities, helped make Vermont more affordable with tax relief, and made investments in shared priorities like childcare, climate change mitigation, infrastructure, workforce, and more. The good news is the legislature included funding for most of those initiatives. The bad news is they spent a lot more money than I proposed and relied on regressive taxes and fees to fund the added spending, which I believe is unsustainable given the economic uncertainty ahead of us. As I've repeatedly said, we can make historic progress on our shared goals without increasing costs on already overburdened Vermonters. What I put forward was sustainable, something we can afford next year and in the future. And we can expand on those shared goals if we have organic revenue to fill those coffers. I've been clear. I'm ready and willing to work with legislators to find the right balance between their approach and mine because that's what Vermonters elected us to do. As I said in my adjournment address, majority of Vermonters voted for me in the last election in every single town while also electing them. Vermonters voted for balance and expect us to work together. But they've also been loud and clear with me that they didn't think Vermont was affordable even before this legislative session. That's why I have serious concerns about the financial impacts of what they passed. Between $100 million payroll tax, $20 million in DMV fees, $30 million in property tax pressure, at least $180 million in potential clean heat mandates, that works out to roughly $1,200 per household per year. I worry about everyday Vermonters already facing cost increases due to inflation. I worry about lower income single moms who won't significantly benefit from what was passed this year will pay more in taxes and fees to help families with higher incomes or the seniors on fixed incomes who are already living on the edge and won't see any benefits but will face higher costs. Now it's no secret I have some disagreement with the approach lawmakers have taken. So I'll once again make this appeal which you and the press are now familiar with. We share the same goals. We both support making historic investments in shared priorities but I believe we must do it in a way Vermonters can afford. We have five weeks between now and when they come back at the end of June Vermonters want us to work together and I'm ready to do just that. So with that I'll open up to questions. You reiterated some of your concerns with the legislation as well as extending revenues and you said in this quest for balance you hope that they will join you in this upcoming veto session to deliver that. What do you mean by that? Well it's to pass forward for them. They can seek to override my veto which they've shown that they can successfully do or they can work with us to try and find some middle ground work together to compromise both sides giving some in order to do what I could find palatable and they could as well. So that's the outreach. So you'd said the outset. Just a little look at the bills haven't arrived on my desk yet but it does sound like you anticipate vetoing some significant pieces of legislation. There are a number of bills I have concerns with and again we'll take a look at all those and put them together and I'll have to prioritize as well. I can't veto everything. So I'll just have to make some decisions over the next couple of weeks.  How productive do you think this session was fees and taxes aside in terms of the legislation that was passed? How productive do you think it was? I guess it depends on your standpoint. From my perspective I think it did a lot of harm and could potentially do a lot of harm to every day of our monitors. From their perspective I think they had a mandate when they came in and they were going to move forward with that mandate and they did so successfully. So again I guess it depends on your perspective. Can you reconcile the two mandates you were elected every town and the people of Vermont elected in theory anyway veto-proof majorities in both chambers? Yeah, I mean you have to look at it. They didn't do so knowingly or collectively. Each district elected their representative. I don't know as any of them went to said we're going to go in and veto everything and override everything the governor vetoes and we don't expect you to listen to anything the governor has to say. I just think that they expected us to work together and from my perspective I have a full view of the state. theirs is narrower than mine and again when you have a super majority and have the power and a lot of cash because of the surpluses that we have you the sense of being able to deliver and you know it's not, I know Governor Cooper is facing the same thing in North Carolina today. So the opposite, he's a Democrat and he's facing a super majority and they overturned his veto as well. You mentioned when you were speaking about the young single mother wouldn't the young single mother be able to benefit from child care? Well there you are and they're not getting any increase so you have a certain level of poverty I think it's 150% at this point 200%, whatever the figure is I'm thinking of that single mom who's already receiving child care and not paying for it. They aren't going to get any more than they get today but they will have to pay for it because if they're working they'll be paying a payroll tax. 65% of federal poverty level now she does get a free child care. That's why my bill that I put forward included went up to almost 400% of poverty levels so that would include them within existing resources and not having any payroll tax. So again I've said we're all going to have to compromise if they're willing and if that means going a little bit more but the long range goal is I agree with them, I think we should have more but we have to do it at a pace we can afford. Just short of saying that you've planned to veto the budget but you're also speaking as if it's all but certain that there's still an opportunity for them to reopen it which there wouldn't be if you signed it into law or let it pass into law without your signature can we assume that you're going to veto the budget? Well there's other ways of accomplishing that I don't have to get into all the intricacies but there are other areas of concern and once you open up one bill you can counteract what you've done in another. So there's ways of crafting legislation to take care of something without opening up the budget but again, I'm not saying I'm going to or not going to I'm just going to take a look at all of them to find a path forward. You said there's no bills on your desk right now I thought you had the biodiversity bill am I right about that? I'm not that I'm aware of it I've signed everything that's come to my desk It seems this philosophical difference between you and the legislature is not really new although there are the new powers if you will of the legislature how would you rate this in your what year is this six years as governor that's where we are right now They've all been different obviously but I would counter that our differences aren't philosophical because I'm in favor of increase in child care I'm in favor of doing more I'm in favor of pay family leave it's just our approach and how we do it and the pace at which we do it is of disagreement so I don't know if that's philosophical but I'm a fiscal conservative I've been in business a long time I've been governor now for this my seventh year I've been in the legislature for a number of years before that I've seen some downturns in the economy I've experienced that in business I know how difficult it is when that happens and it happens quickly and I don't know if everyone in the legislature has experienced that and all they've seen thus far for some are the good times you know we've had a surplus we brought forward a surplus in the state budget for the first time in a decade over the last three or four years we didn't have that before because we were rebounding from that economic downturn so again I think it's the experience that I've had and knowing what I do and knowing how difficult it is to make those cuts leads me to want to walk before you run and they're going from zero to sixty in one session you know if you haven't had an opportunity to review the legislation yet how do you feel in concept about this idea of expanding the model redemption universe in order to increase the amount of fiscal money? I've been opposed to that Bill since I first heard about it and throughout my legislative life I think what we what we put forth decades ago worked was a good step forward but now we have something all different with the recycling zero sort and so forth and I think we should be focusing on that I'm not saying we give up on model redemption in its entirety but to grow it to this degree I think it's going to have some consequences workforce and otherwise that we're not contemplating at this point and I just I think it's the wrong approach I think we should be focusing on recycling One of the arguments in favor of the legislation that would increase future legislators pay was that the current pay scale is just too paltry to allow regular monitors for lack of a better word to get into public service do you think there's merit to that argument? I think there's some merit and I've been vocal about that as well we what I hear from when I'm trying to encourage someone to run for office they typically ask me well how much time does it take and what about what am I going to have to do when, how long is the session and I have to answer honestly because it's open-ended don't know it can be I've been in here into June in one of our sessions when I was in the legislature and so there's no set time limit and that's been the biggest deterrent in terms of trying to encourage people to run the pay for some is an issue and I've said if you want to raise the pay that's fine but you have to reduce the length of the session and have some finality to that for what they, when they were going to be here and for how long so they can get back to their normal lives and back to their own jobs and be able to tell their employers how long they're going to be on So two weeks from today I know we've gotten their standpoint on this before but the hotel motel program will kind of go back to its expanded version and city and town managers I talked to just as recently as yesterday they kind of have no idea what they're going to do with these influx of people coming back so yeah I mean we're all in this together and it's something that we're not sitting on our hands waiting for the date to arrive before doing anything we're trying to make arrangements at this point it's permanent housing is the answer and I want to reiterate that every dollar that we spend for the hotel motel program is money that we won't be able to utilize for permanent housing typically so we should be putting more money as you know we put forward an initiative of $15 million for the VHIP program now the VHIP program has been probably one of the most successful programs we've initiated and I don't think Vermonters have a great idea of what that means because if you have a home and you want to add an accessory dwelling or you have an apartment that needs upgrading so you can rent it out there's grants available for up to $50,000 with some stipulations attached now we've only been doing this for a year or two at this point and we put 500 and something units online for less than $50,000 per unit when you compare that to the money we put forward and again I'm not saying that we shouldn't have done what we've done but when we put it into bigger projects we're talking you know $250,000 or more in terms of per unit cost and it takes a lot longer so the pace of which we are able to react is going to be part of the answer so I'd like that's one area that I would like them to instead of cutting our request by $5 million I think at this point in time should expand upon that and we're just going to have to continue to survey those who are involved in the Hotel Motel program to find out what plans they've made if they've made any what issues they have and we're doing just that every single day and I might ask Secretary Samuelson if she has anything she could add to that at this point it's about the program that on a quarterly basis they're putting as many as 100 units online in that program and that really does make a difference for the reminders we've been in our hotel and hotel programs who have access to those we know that there are reminders who have housing vouchers right now and are not able to access permanent housing and we are committed to working with the towns and are actively engaging in conversations and discussions and we'll continue those from on the access to these towns tomorrow again I want to echo that continuing the money in the hotel and hotel program isn't necessarily getting us to the permanent state that many of the individuals need in that program Secretary Samuelson what's the latest most accurate number on the number of individuals that are going to be exited on June 1 and the governor said you've been surveying them how many of those individuals have you been able to confirm will have housing to transition to when they leave those hotel rooms we know a significant proportion of them actually have an alternative plan we talked about that last time that we were here it's a dynamic population so I don't want to get down to the infinite number that have an alternative plan but we do know that there's a significant proportion that do and are waiting until the program ends to implement that plan significant are you tracking this? Do you have data on this? Is there a spreadsheet where you're keeping track of each individual and finding out what the plan is I'm happy to get back with you on that but we are being actively engaging in case management and care management with each individual and their families to engage in that process so I can get back to you in the number of individuals that will lose eligibility beginning June 1 there is a dynamic number so let me go ahead and I'll get those details back to you dynamic number, does that mean that you haven't fully decided who's going to be eligible and who's not going to be eligible? are there still decision points ahead that are going to be determinative as to whether or not somebody can stay in their motel or hotel room? No I think that's an inaccurate statement it means that there are individuals who are coming and going from the program on a daily basis letters went out to program individuals at the beginning of the month that will be exiting on June 1 and I gave you the number of those letters about when there was conference I was struck by the number of families who had section 8 vouchers who weren't able to find any I mean I wasn't surprised but I was struck by just the sheer number and that's what led me to believe that we need to do a better job in trying to promote the VHIP program and you could all help with that as well to try to get the word out and we can identify just point them our way so that we can get them that would help them as well for some struggling families trying to pay the property taxes this would be another approach to helping supplement that as well the other part of that was the number of people not a great number but there's a number of people in the hotel motel program that would qualify for senior living of some sort and they just aren't quite ready to give up their independence but they would qualify for that so we are actively pursuing that as well those facilities are pretty maxed out too well it was like I'd be desperate to be in one of those facilities but there's nowhere for me to go well interestingly enough we're finding that there's some opening in that program and again I'm going to ask Secretary Samuelson to chime in there are some struggles in certain areas but there are certain areas where I have beds available it was about my comment about senior living and that the the question was if there is no bed capacity maybe you could repeat the question so I don't get it wrong or the statement the general understanding is that's pretty maxed out there was some money in the budget that's you know hoping to increase reimbursement rates which hopefully will increase capacity but I mean how many new beds do you think will be available for the significant population of elderly people who work in these hotels do we have any tips? yeah so I want to be clear there are a number of individuals who are older adults for other levels of care who are right now you know as they understand considering whether now is the time to give up 30 minutes for those who are qualified for skilled nursing which I believe is what you're asking about there are beds across the state that openly track them on a regular basis and it fluctuates as many as 100 beds at any given time I think we're referring to the activities that we have and particularly the discharge from the hospitals and while we found that to be challenging that's often because of the specific needs of those individuals being a higher level of care so I do want to say that there are beds available across the state the state has also worked with and is currently working with a vendor to bring on higher need beds for those who might have mental health substance use correction in histories they currently are not able to find a location that will come on right around the time so it slides coming in July and there will be 100 beds there that will also be able to be prioritized for populations who have higher needs and can't go to one of the currently available beds I'm a little bit confused by what you said earlier about there being a plan of survey and figure out how many of these people do have a plan because when I asked ECF about this a few weeks ago this was a non-record interview I published these comments I asked specifically this question and I was told because the population is transient I don't even think that kind of survey is possible so has that changed is there now going to be an actual systemic effort to figure out how many of these people that are exiting are going to have some sort of if not permanent housing shelter or you know are we going to get some sort of census I'm happy to get folks back in touch with DCF since October we've had a cross agency team that has been working with individuals to do care management and case management to assess what their needs are and to help them identify a plan and move on to permanent housing that's included a nurse it's included someone who is specialized in helping people find employment it's included someone who is specialized in helping navigate economic services as well as the housing partners on the ground and through that project we have been assessing the needs and the plans of individuals who are currently in our hotel program we added a primary focus to help them identify and find a permanent solution and provide them the appropriate supports to do so the question isn't are there case managers talking to these folks but is there an attempt to gather data that will be publicly available that tells us you know of the 2,500 people who left within this two month period you know 50% found a shelter bed 10% got a permanent shelter is there going to be that data that tells us where these people went that's different than whether or not you're talking to them and trying to identify yeah thank you I think that before what I heard your question is are we currently trying to get individuals that are currently in the program as individuals access the housing programs we will continue to look at and monitor the broader agency of human services data but as they exit we may not have their individuals we may not have access to where they go and what their plans are once they're no longer in quality in programs that the agency can service one more question the governor as I'm sure you know there's this group of democrats that are you know to not vote for the budget because of this issue and I'm assuming that legislators reopen the budget somehow of course you know they're coming at it from the opposite direction has that at all affected your calculus about whether or not you should sign or veto this budget bill right it's not that I'm not aware of that but I'm going to look at the glass a little bit differently for those who would look at that and might say well you better not veto the bill it could get the budget could get worse that's what they're getting at and I would say that if we could get to a point where we could agree and make the bill more palatable that we'd actually gain numbers on the republican side in particular so for all those who are going to vote against it no matter what if we made it better from my perspective I think we could gain enough enough votes to make it viable if you do right republicans might join on the other side so it's a dynamic and you can look at it a couple of different ways one of the things we haven't talked about much that I know is really important a lot of people and significant money behind it is this salt workaround did not make it across the finish line and I'm wondering your thoughts, reactions to that I think it's unfortunate that it didn't because it really doesn't affect our budget and would put money in the pockets of many folks from the federal level so I'm scratching my head a bit as to why it didn't make it don't understand about federal money as you know the debt ceiling talks are ongoing in Washington it seems like one of the places that there has been some agreement is for federal government to claw back unused pandemic COVID cash will that affect us anyway we don't believe so it's always a concern because you never know what they're going to claw back and that's why I kept advocating for even with the IIJA money and other money that we're going to be utilizing in the future that we make sure that we have the match once they start they'll start clawing back other money as well to fill gaps so we want to make sure that it's committed we believe that we're in good shape there we have programs in place it is committed it hasn't all gone out the door but it's all committed so depending on how they structure the which I think we're okay as long as it's committed to use and not actually gone to the end user I don't know if you would know where Commissioner Greshin is on about how much money is allocated but not yet spent I hope we get that number Kristen Kristen, Secretary Clouser I think it's just over for my extended but I can follow up with the exact number as well so yesterday the special committee was officially announced kind of person by person it's going to be a part of Franklin County investigations and I know it all starts in the House but considering it's rarity I guess how on the loop are you expecting to be throughout this whole process just kind of hands off I don't think I'll be involved whatsoever other than answering some of your questions but it's in the House at this point and they'll have to do their investigation and come to some conclusion and then vote on that if they choose to do so an area of I guess a through line you saw a lot of decisions as you said but a through line with leaders in both chambers these last couple weeks of the session is essentially the Governor's either vetoing or is going to veto a record amount of bills more than any other Governor in the state that's what they've been telling me at least and I guess your response that you mentioned just the inexperienced law makers they've only been here for the good times we'll have this federal windfall but just I don't know if you have a response to that or kind of a rationale behind why this year might be different I think you know this is a record year of spending as well record year of increase in base budget expansion I think it's at 13% I don't think we've ever seen that so maybe there's a correlation between spending and vetoes I don't know we'll see you spoke a lot on the 72 hour wind period as well that's going to hit your desk I just I know you said you don't want to make any final decisions but just in concept in the next couple of weeks here do you foresee vetoing that again it's it's on the table we'll wait and see when we get it and I'll make a decision at that point go to the phone starting with guy page daily chronicle thank you governor so my question is Governor McDonough who reported today that Vermont Judge Allison Arms was considering releasing an 18 year old accused of armed robbery and drug possession saying it's not her fault if the state doesn't have a secure youth facility Governor McDonough has to support Senator Kitchell in this opposition to the state plan to open a facility there when and where in Vermont is expected yeah I think you cut off at the end there guy but I think I have the flavor of the question we are working on other initiatives Southern Vermont Medical Center is one there's another in Wyndham County with the Sheriff's Office so we are working on a couple of other ways to approach this and we'll wait you know I haven't made any decision we haven't made a decision on Newbury at this point it's in the Supreme Court and on a technicality in terms of the restrictions place or the power of the town so we'll we'll wait and see how that all works out before making a decision to go from there can you tell me one second go ahead okay can you tell me a little bit more about the Southern Vermont Medical Center and the Wyndham County Sheriff's Office's I can't in detail I don't know if Secretary Emelson has anything more on that or can research that and get back to Guy to get information back to you what the Governor is referring to at Southwest Medical Center is an expansion of their services to include an adolescent mental health beds that will be available and it really depends on the need of the individual youth or child the second person that we are talking about the need in our system of care one is stabilization so when a youth is in crisis there's an opportunity to kind of take a time out and stabilize and then determine where best longer term residential placement is and so that identifies the second piece that's needed in our system which is that longer term residential option what we're talking about at the Wyndham County Sheriff's is that opportunity to do the stabilization when before we move out they use on to residential treatment like we might see in Newberry I will say that we we continue to try to work with towns and look for partnerships across the state what I can say is that in the past we've heard and asked towns and providers to come forward and help us find what is needed for Vermont's children and we have no one has and they're all with each of the towns that we work with there always is some reason that they come forward why it's not what they want in their yard so I really would ask Vermont towns Vermont villages to really consider what is the right thing the facilities that we need for but say they haven't and the judge just says hey there's no place to put this child I've got to release it it's just simply got to be a better alternative yeah again I want to look to working with our cities and towns to ensure that we have both stabilization and residential treatment for any absence of that it's really falling to state employees and so I can't dig into this individual case but again we'll continue to look for and explore opportunities to do the right thing for Vermont children Tom Davis, Compass Vermont Governor amongst that pile of bills that you have to consider where is the housing S100 bill on that stack I think that S100 isn't exactly what we wanted we would have preferred having more expansion in terms of Act 250 reform and regulatory reform but it's still a good bill and barring any technical issues with the bill that would probably go through but we'll take a look at it yeah anything will help at this point with housing yeah there's in the room just a quick follow-up to Guy Page's line of questioning is your administration still advocating for pause in raised the age reforms yeah I mean our feelings haven't changed on that issue I know part of the taxes we're looking into whether or not Vermont would be able to assess a payable tax on people who reside here but work remotely for companies based out of state if you got any clarification on that question I'd like to refer to you Commissioner Beaulio thank you for that question are we in the current bill is that if you live in Vermont work in Vermont for a non-employer you would be subject to that payable tax some of the law would say that that employer would have to collect that payable tax on your behalf sure so does the Supreme Court's impact on this session obviously the shield bills responding to the abortion decision and the brewing case a lot of legislators brought that up in terms of legislation they could even introduce or picked up this year just your thoughts on this report well again it's putting more pressure maybe more authority giving it to the states which is for some some have always advocated for that I think that we've reacted appropriately thank you all very much