Good evening and welcome to the future we deserve I'm Tim waters and as a volunteer for Longmont public media I host this program. This is the 10th in a series of shows That are really based on a series of interviews that I conducted early in the pandemic So tonight in the wrap-up of this series We're gonna have a chance to unpack the concept of new localism Just a little bit of context here These conversations are are based on aspirations best hopes of of Longmont leaders and residents That I had a chance to interview 15 months ago All these conversations best on those bet based on those best hopes the first one back in January We spent some time talking about redefining the role and responsibilities of government And tonight we have a chance to talk with some some dialed in high-profile Extraordinary community leaders in Longmont To get their take on what it looks like when we've actually Redefined the role and responsibilities of government. So join me tonight with this group of experts Who I'm happy to introduce Most of you will who will know who they are and I'm just gonna go around my screen First of all, let me say to this group. Thank you so much For for carbon this hour out of your schedules, and I'm gonna say this again at the end of the program Thank you as well for what you do when you're not in an hour in conversation with being one another because I know what you do Day in and day out and the differences you make in this community. So I appreciate the fact that you're you're Spending time with me tonight it honors me and I think it honors the community. So here's who here's who you're looking at Longmont Harold Dominguez Our city manager the CEO of Longmont And has been in that role since 2012 Jessica Erikson Jessica is the executive executive director Jessica right term president CEO The Longmont economic development partnership You might recognize Jessica Jessica from our last conversation When when the topic was rediscovering Our soul in the development of our land and our economy and if if anybody's watching tonight that didn't watch that program You if you if you didn't and you'd like to to hear a conversation about development that you'll you will never hear again Or probably never heard before To hear developers talk about soulful development what they bring and and and how what they develop Reflects their highest values. It was a pretty extraordinary conversation. I know tonight's gonna be equally as because interesting Stacy corny is Stacy. Is it fair to say you're the founder and CEO of Communication concepts. That's correct. All right, and the immediate past chair of the Longmont economic development partnership board of directors Well, that's also correct Eric Wallace is founder and CEO of left-hand brewery Eric is the current chair of the Longmont economic development partnership and Doug Olenowitz is A founder co-founder and principal of trail break Development trouble trail break partners. So that's our group tonight Everybody has a lot to contribute to this conversation, but Jessica. I want to start with you the term new localism I Didn't invent right it wasn't conjured up for for this conversation tonight Yeah, there's there's some pretty rigorous Thinking and scholarship behind the concept But but for a lot of folks not the folks in this conversation But for the folks in town who might be watching this it'll be a new term and and is worthy of some explanation Where did it come from? Why is it important to you? Why is it so much part of the vernacular for you and for some of the others who will hear from tonight and And Thank you, and thank you for having me tonight and thank you for having this conversation. I love this conversation I was so the idea or the concept of new localism really came out of The Brookings Institute and a former Brookings Institute scholar Bruce Katz who founded the Metropolitan Policy Program at The Brookings Institute that still exists today though. He's no longer there And his original book Metropolitan Revolution kind of delved into this idea of problem-solving Or solving the kind of world's greatest problems at the local and regional level and provided some examples throughout that and then really took a deeper dive With his book that he co-authored with Jeremy Noack Titled the new localism which is really this idea that innovative transformational problem-solving So the the the innovation that's going to solve the world's greatest challenges whether they be economic education poverty affordable housing all of the things that Are pressing challenges for all of us across the globe are really going to come from the local level And even more than that, they're not going to come from the public sector alone So the public sector alone is not going to solve the affordable housing crisis. It's not going to solve the child care crisis it's not going to solve talent shortage or Workforce development issues that we have across this country It's going to require networks of leaders from institutions across the public private Non-profit and education sectors and again coming from the top down the local level To solve to solve those problems and solve those problems at a systemic level. So not And it not some of the band-aids the policy band-aids that we've seen applied to those issues recently but really Solutions that are innovative and creative and rooted in systems That sounds like some serious redefining That's a bill of government Eric Because I've had a chance to sit in on some of the meetings and chaired at the Alumni economic development partnership. I know how you are animated around these ideas The value you've placed on what they mean for you as a business leader on what you think they mean to the community So I want to give you a chance to talk about why do you care about this? Why would lefthane care about this? Why would your colleagues and why should the why should longmont Care about the things we just heard from jessica well, um as an as an air force brat and an air force vet that moved all around the world frequently Until I moved to longmont. I didn't have a hometown And I've declared publicly long is my hometown though. I was not born here I've lived all over the place and Since it's my hometown. I want my hometown to be the best hometown it can be and when I first moved here 28 years ago, there was there was kind of a readily visible Kind of inferiority complex in longmont You know because we're sit at the other end of the diagonal from boulder And I was always curious as to why that existed and and never really bought into it and basically Even 25 years ago said, you know, we got it. We got to do something about this. That's a that's a very poor attitude We we were the first brewery in town. We we started lefthane to to solve A societal problem, which was there wasn't very much good beer out there as and and we're wired apparently, you know, we're fairly We're we've been innovative in in the beer industry and we've seen how An operating business can be a really positive Influence and in factor in in its community And we went from where there was three of us working to where now there's 111 of us working and so issues Issues within a city and things and challenges and projects become more apparent to you As your people are all being impacted and as my three kids who were born and schooled and raised and live in longmont Are being impacted. So those problems become more evident, you know, as as you have more touchpoints and Building a multi-generationally sustainable community is really what what i'm all about the affordability of housing right now Is like one of my biggest Biggest issues that i'm really starting to bang the drum on because my daughter my own daughter who works at the brewery can't afford to live in longmont over half of our people drive in from other communities and I think that there are solutions Available to us, but we have to break down the the boxes that limit our our thinking, you know The leadership of the city has to be more creative We've got to we've got to kill some sacred cows and we've got to solve some problems And that's why i'm so so energized about this when And let me just lay a clear example tied to affordability When my people can't afford to live in town Or they can't be building equity in town because they can't get their foot in the door They live farther away The farther away they live the farther they have to drive to get to work The farther they have to drive there is a direct correlation between someone's tenure In the brewery and the distance that they're commuting to get here every day And when I hear of solutions that we're going to stop growing in order to solve The all of the societal ills and traffic and climate change We're basically going in the opposite direction the farther someone has to live The farther they have to drive the less effective my workforce is the more i'm training new people The more churn i have the less profitable i am the less i can reinvest in community the more cars are driving The more aggravated everyone is the more pollution there is the solution is to come up with with the answers to Have our workforce living as close as possible To where they work to the where the transit is to where the amenities are and and build a healthy community I mean that's we are we're basically got our and i'm sorry i'm going to be so direct We got our heads in the sand on how to solve this thing and we've got to break out of the old ways of thinking And we've got to open some new new gates and how to get there I was hoping you would be candid tonight It's hard for me to I appreciate the candor and I appreciate the passion And if we had and if I was going to digress I would say and jessica would you like to add the importance of child care To what he just said about housing, but we I won't do that to you at this now Because I and by the way, I I wanted to share with to ask you all to share with one another with the community As you hear things you'd like to weigh in on don't wait for me to ask the question or call on you just Just weigh in But I am but I am going to ask Stacy here Before I do I want to remind anybody who's viewing that 40 minutes into the hour will take calls So if you want to add to our thinking you want to help us learn our way forward In terms of what are the problems we're solving and what should we be thinking about in terms of solving them? You get a chance to participate in this conversation as well So, um, our we have a we have somebody who's helping to manage this program And they'll put a phone number up and you can call in go in a waiting room and and join the conversation So stacey right now. I want you to join the conversation Both as the as the past chair in and with the work you do every day with leaders in town How does this how do you translate this for yourself and for others your small business owner? But you're working with leaders business of all sizes In every segment of the community How do you translate all this into your work in what it means long term for long? Well I have to back it up a little bit tim and thank you so much for inviting me to participate in this This is one of my favorite topics and I didn't know For most of my life that there was a name for this I've been doing this as I found out For years Without even knowing that there was a model About it. It's just the way I I have always Functioned um In fact, if I may I want to show my book that I got the jessica reference And I want to note that it signed by bruce cats and it says communicate new localism So bruce i'm doing that. I'm working on that so um I think it's vitally important that we talk about this whatever it's called and i'm glad that Longmont has embraced this notion I've just intuitively operated for many years and and i'm nodding with a lot of what eric said I came here 31 years ago Started looking around and thought this is a great place. What's going on? Why? Why isn't more happening? I think when we convene I think new localism is a lot about convening And finding out what is it that we want to accomplish in this community? Are there problems? Are there opportunities? Are there things that are holding us back? And if we want to move from a to b, how do we get there? And the new localism talks a lot about You get the right people to the table You talk about it and you find out Well, what could we do or what could be different and who's not at this table? And I think that's fundamental to new localism Who's not at that table that needs to be at that table? Who who are they and we talk a lot about the unrepresented but But it's specific people in different instances depending on on what you're trying to accomplish So it's more than just being inclusionary, which is important of course, but it's being intentional In what kind of expertise and what kind of passion and and Who comes so that you have the right people who can make a difference the people? With the city with the school district with the county The business leaders Educate well education hospitals whatever it needs to be you need to talk to them And we need to talk about it And I think one of the times that I think about as an example of how this has worked for long month that was so clear to me And before I knew what the name was Was when this when the business community decided to get together years ago and and come up with an economic plan for the entire community So that people wouldn't Each group is doing all kinds of different things and we have lots of different organizations doing lots of really great things And we sat down and had months after month after month of hard meetings looking at what is economic development What do we want to accomplish? What does it need to look like? And that I mean Jessica could talk about that. I'm sure all day for us and I find it fascinating But what ended up happening was all the different groups that have something to do with it came together and collectively said This is our part. This is your part. This is our goal. This is our intention And we've updated that plan recently And so it's really made a difference and I don't want to speak for jessica But I believe I think that that's one of the main reasons we were able to hire jessica here to long month because she saw that plan And appreciated that. Is that true jessica? She's trying to unmute Okay Oh, I must have said something way wrong No, it absolutely is the original advance on what strategy. So I just drunk the metropolitan revolution metropolitan policy program Kuwait when I was at the governor's office in the Hickam-Lubra administration and had met Amy Lu and and Had decided that that was my primary motivation to start looking at, you know, getting back to doing economic development At the local level because that was it was very apparent to me Even back then six years ago now that change was Happening at the local level and especially back then because you know six years ago. There weren't federal resources like we're about to see coming from ARPA to even support that so not only from a innovative creative Policy making perspective were problems going to have to be solved at the local level But also from a fiscal perspective, they were going to have to be solved at the local level because there wasn't support from the state and local government or from the state and federal governments to make those things happen and so I Serendipitously got a call about this job opening in Longmont and and looked into the original advance on what strategy and it was as close as I had seen to kind of that ideology around Collaboration as economic development and now we've taken that even further with our collective impact model for for economic development so going beyond collaboration and aligning all of our private non-profit and civic institutions around the same vision of what we want our community to look like specifically from Economic and prosperity perspective Harold Everything we've heard so far and and and and the concepts right the theories The frameworks that are that are codified or captured in the new localism Have huge implications for municipalities. I mean a lot of ways municipalities is where the action is right? and The whole frame for the series of programs in terms of the future we deserve Is is to be looking at what should we be anticipating and what are the implications for what we're anticipating and how we realize our best hopes Coming out of the pandemic into the post pandemic future From from the ceo perspective of the city the municipality. What what does all this mean to you? And what are the implications for the city for you your team? For for those who make policy for those who implement for policy for those who Who are responsible for outreach for listening, you know and putting it all together? Yeah, you know, it's interesting when this topic came up You actually took me back to my days as an undergrad and then ultimately in graduate school because What's interesting? I think new localism is sort of and you'll hear me talk about devolution in a little bit But it's really an evolution and there was a book written in 1992 by Osborne and gabler called reinventing government And when you look at the principles and Osborne and gabler and reinventing government, you see the same Concepts that were brought forward and new localism new localism did a better job of bringing into into the entire community into the conversation versus where Reinventing government was just how do we get better at doing what we're doing? You know steer not row empower Rather than serve and jet competition into service delivery You can see some of those concepts from reinventing government in in new localism, but reinventing government and I remember being in In a session with the lieutenant governor when he was starting to talk about the devolution and what that was meaning for communities This was really on the front end of my career. And so what has happened Really since the 80s is that what you find and what we have found and what we have to deal with As many of the issues that we're being dealt with and supported At the federal and state levels have continued to be pushed down onto local governments And so local governments are now faced with the challenge of fully absorbing and dealing with societal issues And you can go into things like mental health substance abuse child care Economic development, you know, here a lot of states playing in this world But economic development I will argue has always been and will be best be done by local governments because We can work within our community, but that was pushed down to us. And when you look at New localism, you know, it talks about the new locus of power is new localism And it's emerging by necessity to solve grand challenges characteristics of modern society's economic competitiveness social inclusion and opportunity for new public life challenge of diversity Those are all of the things that we struggle with as a city And and when you look at a lot of these problems cities have been chow have been Trying to deal with these for hundreds of years And we're still trying to deal with those issues. And I think for us it really is How do we come together as a community? And and in community, I mean our residents our businesses You know entrepreneurs, how do we come together as a collective to tackle these really large monumental issues? So that we can make a positive difference in our community And in that how how do we get creative and looking at different solutions? And I think for us, you know, stacey brought up advance long on 1.0 I remember when we got into it Engaging in that conversation that first engagement piece was very difficult because it was new and it was different But it really sets the stage stage for these broader conversations And for us, I think what it means is we have to be and we have a lot of work to do on this I think we do really well in areas. I think other areas we don't do as well But we have to really engage and and look at this and that it's going to take all of us to do it And how do we create the partnerships? And this is where I go back to reinventing governments steer not row How do we Engage multiple people to be solution oriented to sound to To really work to solve the challenges that have been plaguing cities for a hundred hundreds of years because cities can't do it We we've tried cities have tried and tried and tried we can't do it alone And it really takes all of us. And so I think it takes on our side Almost a flip of a switch And and how we think and how we approach things trying to be solution oriented I think you know the challenge that cities face in this is also embedded embedded in our very structure of government And and it's the issues that we have in play whether the federal or state rules local ordinance and all of these issues and at times the The issue of new localism reinventing government when I started in my career There there there is a pinch point there And in that pinch point, how do we move through? That discussion When at times you have these rules that are overlaying that's that's creating challenges to it and how do we have The open conversation to bring everyone in the community together To say here's what we're trying to solve collectively But here's how we need to also look at potentially adjusting some things so we can solve it collectively because I think that's That's a challenge. That's any city usa that we go through and I've seen it in every city I've worked in So some of the some of the pinch points or the regulatory Challenges, I think that would be from federal and state levels created somewhere else So we we have the responsibility for a solution without all the authority Correct To modify what the the constraints might be is that is that a correct interpretation what you just said? Yeah, that's correct. But I think we also have it where we do it to ourselves too Yeah, well, I know and and and and all of those things come together because It then becomes in the weaving in this that sometimes you just hit roblox and it's how you get through that roblox So here's what I want to do. I want to I'm going to ask Doug now to weigh in and I'm going to ask uh jesca Eric and stacey in particular, but but herald you as well Doug three years ago Started the process of getting permitted to develop Housing the very housing actually not so far from left hand brewery But the very kind of housing I think eric was talking about his employees his daughter his employees need workforce housing right not Not that acreage in and executive housing. Is that fair Doug? Is that kind of your sweet spot in terms of as a developer in home builder? Yes. Yeah, that that's accurate. So for three years your your project has been Reviewed and reviewed and reviewed right and part of the reason I wanted Doug to be in this conversation and and Harold and Doug you've been in this conversation together Is because I think Doug's project is an example of what we have something It's one we need to learn from and I want Doug if you would be able to share none of you talk about your experience but what you think we ought to learn and then How we get but what does it look like to get better at this going forward because I think what I've heard from eric and from herald and certainly from jessica and stacey is that we need that we need to uh We need to refine and we need to accelerate decision making in the in the interest of better decisions right for for pretty clear objectives or purposes Can I jump in just I think you're nailing you're nailing the point that that i'm also making notes is that The city has approved strategic vision and also talked about flexibility innovation and changing modifying rules and restraints to progress New localism requires us to all get on the same page I think that we're somewhere in the process of trying to get on the same page And we're not all on the same page and that's the challenge for all of these all of us that play different roles in this to all be communicating and pull Pull more in a common direction to where I've heard the words collaboration. I've heard the words solution oriented though That's the that is the mindset that we really require And from the top all the way down we've got to get away from making partisan points And we have to talk about solutions solutions for the people that live in a real town with real issues So when I said you you you are animated about this I love So I'd be Eric. I want you to be thinking along with jesse and stacey as we asked dug to kind of unpack this What what the idea of competency in the practices of new localism, right? What it what would what would his experience Look like if we were nailing it moving forward, right because we haven't nailed it yet for dug And I'm gonna I'm gonna show up. I'll let you talk about your series dug But I want you think I would like you three to be listening for What are the kinds of competencies that we ought to be nailing so that we we can we help guys like dug Deliver the product that we said we wanted to deliver which is what he intended to do And part of eric's point is he hasn't done it and and some and I think carol would agree with this We've done it to ourselves in terms of how this got that got hung up So dug just describe the experience and I don't know where we are You are in the trajectory or how close you are to getting finished But some of the challenges if we don't get it right And what those costs are because there are serious costs associated with with how we've been doing Yeah, yeah, um, well a couple things one. Thank you for for having me You know, I appreciate the opportunity to chat about a delicate area Yeah I I would say a couple of things one is, you know The fact that this conversation is taking place is is really indicative of what I would say is Is that that change is you know an awareness of it and a desire to improve upon Kind of where things are currently it feels like it really is underway and you know herald and his team I'm I'm grateful for that, you know from the seat that I sit in You know, it you know, it's easy to Monday morning quarterback and say gee That would have been great to be there, you know, a couple years ago or whatever But you know, it you know, I'm a realist about process and and how things change You know our experience With longmont in many respects has been quite positive But we you know as you've talked about, you know, we've had some challenges along the way And you know, I think my comments are really, you know, how to shed light on those challenges and You know in with the idea of, you know processing new development and you know things that You know, we recommendations we might have for you know, working between the private sector on the development side And the you know city and you know, both electeds and you know when it gets down to the staff because I think there's That's really where disconnects happen and it's you know, it's not unique to longmont, you know, let's be clear about that Um, so you know in our particular case we we have we think it's a pretty good project. It was, you know, well received You know by the time we took it through planning commission in 2019, you know Even some of the initial opposition It was on board and you know said so out loud at you know in the public hearing and and kind of got approved and things started to go off the rail after that and You know, it's it's common right now that uh in the current times where There's a disconnect between What I would call the pal policy outcomes Yeah, in the aspirations that a city puts forward from hey, we want this type of housing or this this type of development to take place and um, you know, so that and then What the current standards allow for and that's that's where things start to go awry um And and the reason for that is you know that that the type of development the nature of development the standards that were put in place Many of them are quite dated and it's easy to invent a picture of what we want to see there But you know allowing code to catch up Is easier said than done um And so you know exact you know oftentimes cities are advocating for you know sustainable solutions, but they're frankly they're unachievable without variances or exceptions And the notion of a of an exception or a variance when you walk in the door is met with skepticism right and then Uh, and then even even if it wasn't just skepticism it necessarily puts it in the realm of discretion And when you have discretion Right now you're playing you're picking winners and losers And so the reason i'm going down this path and it's not unique to long love This is just kind of you know from where we sit as in the development community and the investment community is When you have discretion in uncertainty In and it takes longer and it's harder to get to an outcome that might not be achievable Well, that's called risk and risk gets priced into projects And that's not uh, you know, that's not somebody sitting here being hey, you know I'm an evil greedy developer or whatever, you know that the caricature may be It's you know when we go out And you know seek investors which can be you know local residents that are you know doing that as a instead of Buying stock or therefore i1k they're going to say well gee that's kind of a risky proposition The more risk there is the higher the expected rate of return and it sort of waterfalls down from there Um, and you know, there's a view that development, you know You can just make wave of magic wand and development, you know pays for everything. It's all is everything and you know I think herald Really commented on two things, you know They're there in my view. There's a need for collaboration There's a need for a solutions oriented Attitude right and we have endemic and it's not new right, you know All the current leadership in cities inherited this paradigm that's existed for centuries Which is a regulatory mindset an enforcement mindset And I would say that in today's day and age where there's a lot of competing interests, right? We want to have this outcome, but you know, we need we need we need access to housing We need housing that's affordable But uh, you know, we have crumbling infrastructure. Well, then development should just go pay for all of it Well, if we pay for all of it, you know prices go up. Well, those don't work together You know, there's all these competing interests in my experience has been when you can get to the point where All of the parties around the table are on the same team Whether you're the city whether your staff whether you're the developer or whoever all those parties are and you have a common objective in terms of what the outcome is It's a lot easier to say Let's work together and and you know herald to your comments solution oriented when we know where we're trying to get to Nobody's asking for a free walk But a real honest conversation about the you know, the the competing interests and everything can't just be thrown in one direction And then, you know, there is a balancing act. I I absolutely agree. There needs to be a sense of urgency on all parties to be able to get there Um, I think it needs to be thoughtful We don't just want things rubber stamped that creates your long term issues for For cities for residents for communities But there is a lot of analysis paralysis that happens within, you know, within cities and with with staff Um, so I I think it's you know, we need to be collaborative bridge builders um, the parties To that project really should be working with that Common shared vision of where we're trying to get to I think it is a fundamental cultural attitude in an organization That needs to be worked on and so Eric you had talked about this coming from the top down I absolutely agree with that, right? There's you know, this endemic attitude of enforcement or a lack of incentive either a lack of incentive or no incentive Or you know risk in somebody Um Bringing solutions to the table if your staff right, you know, when you have a code book It's really safe to stay within the you know the confines of that Um, that's culture it comes from leadership So leadership needs to set that standard set the expectation and live it every single day So that staff can see it and it's a safe environment to be able to do What needs to be done to align these areas where we just have you know Aspirations over here that everybody feels really good about and then You know code or process or the historical paradigm kind of holding things back Yeah Harold what are your Amish your thoughts because you you're trying to figure this out day in real time day in and day out and then For the other three the competencies and what's at stake if we don't get it right In the post pandemic future because we're competing with cities that will right But pick it up Harold in terms of what a world. What are we learning and what do we need to learn? What else do we need to learn and apply going forward? Yeah, I think well, you know what we need to learn and what we're talking to folks is I had a conversation last week and when we're autopsy and things And I used the comment, you know We don't need to be problem identifiers Yes, we need to identify the issues But then we to the point of how can we become problem solvers? And it's in that I think, you know, you heard me talk about the tension And the tension that that starts coming into play in different worlds and it really depends on what the issue is So if you get into things like floodplain issues and water quality issues You know the reality in that system is we are we are given the authority To to manage and issue those permits by the state and the federal government and we get audited on how we do it and and so That process in its own right becomes very complicated just because of that oversight from these other governmental Entities which creates an interesting tension point and how we move through it I still think there's room To to have conversations But there are points in the conversation where where you don't have room And and so it's not like you have complete flexibility. You have sideboards That statutorily are placed on It's a little bit different than when you get more into your local codes and how you move through that And you know like one of the things we talked about that seems simple enough But in cases where you send someone through the planning process first We're thinking we probably in in certain areas of the community where we know these difficult points are going to come up They probably need to have the storm water or the the floodplain and the water quality issue first Before you start running through other processes because that's not completely in our control And and so I think there's to dutch point there's process pieces That I think we need we need to talk about and really adjust because What should come first and in in that the other thing I talked about with staff is we also have to clearly let people know What our expectations are? Because if you if you're not clear on what your expectations are and what your parameters are It it does tend to lead to being able to move into a spin cycle pretty quickly And and so those are things that that i'm trying to work on with folks Um, and then as you get a little closer in and and i'm going to say again any city usa Working in three different cities each had their own characteristics their own rules their own ordinances and all of these things in place And and then it comes into This world of the the tensions even within those And and what can you do and what can't you do? You know, I ran into an interesting And and council brought this to my you know brought council asked us to bring this back but An individual wanted to do this and was looking at a particular section of an ordinance And even though they were complying with what the ordinance wanted them to do They're actually exceeding what the ordinance wanted them to do The ordinance didn't allow us to use that mechanism Because it was if you can't meet it. Here's what you can do And you get into these oddities in it that In some way starts closing down the the you know what you can do and it shows itself at different points and so I think what i'm talking to staff about is You know the points i've said Identify the problem try to be a problem solver um Understand what we're looking at why we're looking at it clearly Outline what our expectations are and what we need to do And and and then on the front end identify the landmines Um because if you know a landmine don't wait till you're farther in the process to identify Identify it on the front end because then people can maneuver and make adjustments And i'm actually learning that on a different side now that we've taken over the housing authority because now I am in They the game and the discussion we're talking about In really experiencing some of those issues which has really afforded me a different opportunity to look at it Because now I can look at it both from You know the regulatory approving approval side But also on the other side of trying to get a project forward and that's been really eye opening and I think more cities I think that's a benefit to start bringing in that lens because it gives you a different look at it where you can truly start You know targeting things that you can control The things that I can't control There needs to be other conversations, but what can I adjust and that I can control To try to help in And really you know embrace the new localism and what we can do so We've heard from the heard from herald What what what did the what did the three experts here on the new localism? What are you hearing about or from this experience about? Uh practices that we need to be clear on that we need to refine that we need to execute At high very competently because others will and and the others are those with whom we're competing Could I jump in?  Come on. You're being too polite okay what what I wanted to To say before I forgot um It is in terms and I don't know if it's addressed specifically in the book. I admit I haven't read every page of the book But I think sometimes we forget that What we want to accomplish still goes back to basic courtesy And the competencies that I think that we're really we as a nation, but particularly we're talking As a community We're going to have to get a lot better. I'm a professional communicator We're going to have to get a lot better at communication Two ways so that we are not Just putting out and communicating at people which happens all the time Listening for when what what we're going to say, but what are listening for understanding? Because that's where we find out a lot of times where there are problems or opportunities Is just through communicating with people about their experiences and what they need or what they've seen The big work that I've seen in 30 years in this community has happened in that way And something that we've all kind of said, but I don't know that it's been set out right is you have to trust each other If you're going to do this kind of work You got to trust each other and harold alluded to when we started doing advanced long line One point or whatever it was called. It wasn't easy And there were some hard words and there were some people who were getting upset and there were turf battles in there, but there was There was the passion to keep going and the understanding that we could get there and we needed to trust each other and that means telling it Like we see it even if it's different than other people And eric talks about getting on the same page and I totally agree. That's what the whole thing is about But so often we come to the table I know how it should be. I'm on the page. Where are the rest of you? And the beauty of this to me is that There isn't necessarily the beginning with a page It's coming together collectively to decide What is our page And how are we going to move forward and I say and I'll turn it over to everybody else But I want to say it's urgent. It's urgent now. It's urgent for this community It's urgent for our nation that we get so that we can communicate with each other Not judge each other and learn how to trust because there's we can always find things that we can agree on So let's work on those All right, let's let's talk about what is it. Thanks. What is it? Thank you stacey Can I can I jump in? I think what stacey's hitting on is the piece in the book where I mean They're specific to say with rising populism on both sides Of the conversation They really see new localism as that mechanism to kind of bridge And and and I think it's really a bridge to for You know Civil discourse and how we decide what do we want to be? Uh, yeah, if gosh, I'd like to put my A participant head on here as opposed to a moderator head on but I'm gonna resist because I'd love to weigh in right there Jessica air. What are you hearing about competencies about what the what matters here? Just to go go first because I've got a list here too. Go Yeah, I don't have a list so I'll be relatively quick, but I just want to go kind of reinforce specific to um Doug's project to trailbreak partners project So I had the um good fortune of meeting Doug three years ago I'm when you have first come into the community and he came To me and to others within the community and I'm sure you tim and probably had the same experience with him He came to us with a solution for a stated problem or a way for us Um a product to help us achieve a specific stated goal of our community, which was uh housing attainable to Um the greatest percentage of our workforce that's earning that 80 to 120 percent am I others might call it workforce housing Um, and so we had identified that as a problem We had identified solving that problem as a goal and here we had somebody who was coming to our community um understanding that having evaluated that assess that having understood that about our community and saying I want to help you solve this problem And yes, I'm a developer. I'm going to make money off of it. That's my job um, but I very specifically think that I have and I have a proven solution to Your stated problem and your your stated goal And I think to Stacy's point if we can't find a way to When that happens when we're fortunate enough to have that happen and we're fortunate enough to have someone like Doug an entity like trouble at partners invest in our community if we can't find a way to Trust that that's authentic and that's real instead of applying these kind of outdated um Ideas of what the developer is. I always say people imagine all developers are sleeping on beds of money every night and Um, I'm sure Doug can confirm that that's not the case Um, but if we can't find a way to trust when somebody comes to us wanting to invest in our community and bring us a proven solution so Not the first place. He's done this bring us a proven solution to a problem that we've said that we need to solve then and and you know unanimously approved by P and z as he said supported by neighbors that had originally challenged that if we can't find a way to trust that then again to Stacy's point and to herald's point about um trust and and uh communication then We're I mean we might as well Kind of stop today if we can't figure out a way to um to do that So I I don't know if I would categorize it as a competency, but as a willingness to accept yes for an answer I mean what you described is spot-on and um And some communities are going to recognize When there is an answer and and be able to to say yes to it more quickly than others And it's going to be a difference maker a game changer from one community to a next Eric, what did you want to weigh in on? the the Doug brought up culture um Several several times we've heard the word collaboration And and I've talked to herald about we need we need the system the process to be collaborative They're the experts and they see where the the blocks are collaboration Solution oriented those are I fully agree. I just want to re echo that for the third or fourth time and then Goal setting based on data. Let's we let's quantify the size of the issue and then let's let's tell all of our people This is the goal people get on the boat We need to get there and if you're if you see a problem that is stopping Doug from solving solving our problem Let's solve the block to Doug's problem so he can help us solve our strategic problem What are the results if we fail at this the second part of your question is workforce Availability is already a challenge and it's getting harder and harder And when I've got people driving in from Fort Collins and Denver and Loveland and berthand and johnson and plattville And all over kingdom come They don't As much time They don't last as long They leave more quickly because they find a job closer Quality of life goes down when you're driving all the time when everyone that works in boulder lives in longmont When everyone that lives in longmont lives somewhere else quality of life goes down climate change is impacted Traffic is exacerbated. We're so all of these things in my mind. They're they're We have a strategic vision Now we need to impart the vision As Doug said the the permission Really to to solve these issues within the process and determine where where the conflicts are There's plenty of conflicts and we can talk all day about where the conflicts in our guidance lives because we all run into them The city's the expert help us solve them and and help enact The strategic goals and visions of envision longmont and advance longmont 2.0 Proven approved by city council as our stated goal policy and vision help us get there. That's what we're talking about Why should longmont? Why should anybody who is not listening to this? Watch it when it's in the recorded version or anybody who is watching it. Why should they care? They've got they're settled. They've got their jobs. They've got a home What what does it matter to the to the average citizen and we've got just a few minutes left? Um, they hit the highlights of this where where your kid's gonna work Where are your kids gonna live?  Are they gonna have to go out and earn it and they're gonna live somewhere else? You know, what what's the next 30 years look like or is longmont gonna empty empty shell itself out of existence because it's become so so So expensive that you're gonna have east coast west coast money living here and we're gonna look like bolder You know tim I think part of it and I and I've talked to council about this in terms of budgeting and what we're looking at in the future Um, and I think you break down, you know, when you look at what makes longmont great our diversity Um or and when I say diversity, I'm talking economic diversity racial diverse all of those issues Are really characteristics. It makes longmont great, you know, and we look at what do we have available to develop There's not, you know, you're now hearing this talk about build out. What does that mean as we're approaching build out? um We also know that cities are also pushed Financially we face the same inflationary pressures that eric faces in his business And we have to absorb that and and as we continue to move forward um You know, it is important for us to look at these things because you also have to understand the financial model that cities are built on and it's really growth and new revenue And if you get to the point to where that doesn't Continue to exist you can look to cities where it's happened It either becomes incredibly expensive to live because you're constantly having to hit larger rate increases because you don't have the growth coming in And i'm not saying it's the only answer But you see those cities then tend to push sales tax higher property tax higher and those issues because They're limited in the revenue resources they come in and then what you see From a social equity perspective as you see the other side of it starting to kind of play Um, and so I think that's where you have to look 10 15 20 years down the road to go What's coming at us in this? Because it's coming and then when you look at what's available to develop I mean there's a reason many of these properties weren't developed right away They're the hardest to develop for any number of reasons And and so that comes into play as well So it really also is looking at the long-term financial viability of the community but also Preserving the character of the community as it exists today because those two work hand Could I just add real quick that? um I agree with all of that and we've talked a lot about development. That is a big deal I've spent a lot of my time trying to help with these efforts too Because it's so important But the question about why should other people care who may see this or hear about it People should care because this is not a top-down deal. This is your deal long month If you work here you live here you have an interest here Then you have ideas And you have solutions And you see opportunities And to me it it's very core. That's what it's about is it's I hate the word empower, but it really empowers Everyone to take ownership And not have to say well, I'm not an elected official or I don't work for the city or I don't work for the school district or what have you No, but you're valuable You have very valuable Information about this community that we all need And that's the beauty of it to me is because it isn't just a separate group of people deciding things It morphs over time in different ways with different people So I would say you want to get involved because of the future We've all said But you might just find you like it and you might just find that you can make a difference with what you know Well, I hope that this conversation gets um Repeated and amplified In the orbits in which you live and work, right? I hope if however many long monitors watch this program I hope it stimulates some other conversations about What's at stake and and fundamentally the word trust now has come up several times In the very first of these programs And when we're talking about redefining the roles and responsibilities of government It was followed by truth and truth telling and equity injustice and recovery and the common good. What is it and on and on We've kind of danced around that idea that that's so much that there's a you know book that that's entitled the speed of trust that if we it could if we could find a way to reconnect the population With with government in ways that you've described tonight As a as a partnership To accelerate the kinds of decisions that mean to be made and improve the quality of them The future I think lies to the municipalities that can do that So I hope in some ways um these conversations contribute to I don't know about I don't know that if we have to re-establish trust But it's certainly to strengthen the trust Both of the long month government of its population of the residents and the other way around I don't know. I think the municipalities should get that right win in the long run. Is that fair? All right, I'm gonna do it.  It's been a real honor I just a privilege to be in these conversations with people like you Um, uh, and this is probably the only time this community will ever have a chance to hear this combination people on this topic So I I hope I hope people take advantage of it If not in the live program tonight when it's replayed So thanks for tonight. Again. Thanks for everything you do I want to say to those who who may be watching this is the final episode Of the the future we deserve and so everybody who's who's been kind enough to To participate in these conversations. I want to thank you as well The premise for this whole series Was and remains That if we expect to see the the the our national discourse Improved elevated Uh become more civil More gracious more informed We need to expect that only because we've set the example at the local level So that's what we've tried to do with this series of 10 sessions On the on the future we deserve to model what adult intellectual intellectually rigorous Uh substantive conversations look like Uh and and not just reiterate and amplify Our worst fears about the future But uh to amplify The best hopes of longmont leaders Longmont residents About your aspirations and your best hopes for the future we deserve right So we're we're coming out of a pandemic Some have suggested that we've got almost like a portal to the future the the potential for us today Is to is really it's really to set ambitious Meaningful goals and achieve them But only if we can do the things that you've described tonight Find a way to take advantage of all the talent All the input all the intellect all the capacity in long line So I know that's what you're gonna do Personally as resident i'm gonna i'm i'm gonna stand with you in that effort. Thanks. Thanks to you tonight to longmoners Thanks for you for those of you who have you have watched this and uh, enjoy the party. There's a lot of work to do Thanks and thanks to you We're done Man, I wish we had another hour or two Yeah, we didn't even get it. You know herald when you mentioned populism


Welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast and know if you're watching on video you are seeing me in an interesting pair of glasses which we're going to talk about for this entire episode. So believe it or not according to the Nielsen Global Connect, a company that gathers consumer and marketplace data, the average American adult spends nearly 11 hours a day looking at a screen. Now considering that the average person is awake 17 hours a day, that's a huge chunk of our existence. And this isn't just hard on your eyes. You see computers, smartphones, and other electronic devices with screens, along with LED and fluorescent lights emit an artificial light called blue light. And since so much of our days are spent soaking up blue light, it's natural to wonder how is this affecting our health? Well on today's episode of the Dr. Gundry podcast, I'll be speaking with Matt Maruka, founder of RA Optics, RA like the Egyptian God, a blue light blocking eyewear company to understand what the heck blue light is, how could it be affecting you, and ways to minimize your exposure. Matt, welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. So I understand that you struggled with health issues since you were a teenager. Can you tell us briefly about your journey and your aha moment when it came to blue light? Absolutely. So I began looking for answers when I was 14 going into high school because I was daily having headaches, gut issues, allergies, and all these sorts of things. And the actual first aha moment I had was largely influenced by your work and the work of folks in the paleo movement when I realized that the food I was eating was such a huge problem. I cut out the highest lectin containing foods, grains, legumes, and other toxic, modern processed foods and had such a huge improvement in my health from a previous vegetarian diet that I thought, oh my gosh, what else do I not know about how the body works? Everything I know for all I know could be a lie at this point. So as I began to advance on diets, I would get to a place where I thought maybe I had made 75% improvement, but I always felt like there was a little bit more that I could do. And that's when I started looking into what influences other factors in my body that drive health, such as, for example, sleep and mitochondria. I didn't have those search terms in my head initially, but I came across some work that indicated that if our mitochondria, if our cellular engines, which are these bacteria that live in our body, much like the gut bacteria, which you speak of very often, if they're not working optimally, how are we going to be functioning? And it turns out that this entire modern indoor lifestyle we've created is absolutely catastrophic for our mitochondria, so that even if we eat a, for example, perfect diet, if our lifestyle is lacking in its light spectrum that is necessary to optimize the mitochondrial function, then we will not be able to function as an optimal human no matter how great our diet is. And so that kind of led me into figuring out how can I block the wavelengths that we're getting too much of in the modern world, and then, of course, go back out in the sun to get the remainder of the full spectrum that is critical for a lot of processes like vitamin D synthesis, proper blood flow, and so on in the body. So are you trying to tell me that light can affect my mitochondria?  Yeah, actually, exactly. So, give me, give us an example. So blue light, I mean, is that a blue light special at Kmart in the good old days, or what blue lights are part of natural light, right? Correct, yeah. So blue light is just one of the, we call it blue, but if we were physicists, we would just call it 400 to 500 nanometers of light on the electromagnetic spectrum. And that's what we perceive as blue. It's just a range of electromagnetic wavelengths, just like the rest of the colors that make up the rainbow. So in the sun, blue is a large component of the light, and it controls a number of our biologic processes, primarily the timing of our circadian rhythm via these non-visual optical pathways that go from the retina of the eye directly to the suprachiasmatic nucleus in the brain that controls the circadian rhythm and a huge number of processes throughout the entire body because it is the master clock and the hypothalamus is the master regulator of our metabolism. So blue is okay when it's found in sunlight. However, the modern lights that we have today, such as, for example, cool white LEDs, which are the basis of modern screen devices and tremendous amount of modern lighting. Many people are familiar with the extremely bright headlights on outies and those new cars that almost blind you and kill you when you're on the road. Those are cool white LEDs, and they are enriched with blue light in order to be much brighter, but this comes at the significant cost of disrupting our body's natural circadian rhythm and signaling processes which are controlled by blue light in ways that are non-visually perceived. Whoa, dude, hold on a second.  Speak English for us for just a second. So what you're saying, let me summarize, is that normally sunlight and blue light would activate some circadian rhythm awake cycles in us. And what effect would that have on us? Well, one of the primary effects is that when we're exposed to light in the beginning of the day, in particular, it will increase the secretion of our stress hormones cortisol. So putting it in plain English, light in particular blue wavelengths, they wake us up. They wake us up. They turn off the secretion of our sleep hormone and repair hormone melatonin and then turn on the secretion of our stress hormones and wakefulness hormones and so on. And for example, serotonin is another neurotransmitter associated with wakefulness and so on. And its production is largely stimulated by light exposure on the eye impacting the brain and so on. So this is sort of how blue light from the sun is designed to have a positive benefit for our body. But when you have it at night, it disrupts our important sleep and repair processes which can create some serious havoc in our body. Well, in my original book, I pointed out that summer was a time of long daylight and we were actually designed with that increasing light exposure to be hungry and to go find food because summer obviously was before the winter and it was a really good idea to get as much food as possible before the hard times. And I wrote about movie theaters new long ago that if they expose the screens reflected blue light, particularly on the previews that you would head to the concession stand and double up on your popcorn order and your junior mints just from that stimulation of that light. So this is actually been known about by people wanting to sell us things. So you're saying though that this incredible now almost 24 hours a day exposure to blue light emitting lights like for instance an LED light or a fluorescent light instead of an incandescent light bulb is really screwing us up. Absolutely. That is exactly right. So what made you cognizant that maybe your exposure to blue light was a piece of the missing puzzle after you got your diet squared away? I think that's a fantastic question. So as I was improving my health with my diet, like I said, there was still a bit of a lapse in or a gap between where I was and where I felt intuitively that I would be able to go. Lots of the research and the blogs and articles of many of the paleo diet authors led me to believe that I didn't have to deal with, for example, allergies and immune issues and gut issues and energy issues. And yet no matter how strict I was on my, for example, paleolithic diet template, or example, even autoimmune paleolithic diet or even gaps diet, gut and psychology syndrome diet, I still was having trouble improving my or fully clearing my symptoms. So that was the point at which I began to come across some work about the importance of, again, our environment and mitochondrial function. And the best analogy that I like to make is that the body is, in a sense, a lot like a car. In particular, our mitochondria, our cellular engines are a lot like car engines because both our engines and a car engine use some form of organic matter, a hydrogen-based fuel source, which has electrons excited by sunlight, whether it's an ancient fossil fuel or a brand new fresh banana or an animal that ate a banana. We use that and burn it with oxygen that we breathe just like a car engine breathes oxygen in order to generate energy in different forms. So if, for example, you were driving your car or tried to start your car one day and it was the engine was misfiring, it wasn't starting or you started accelerating and it was, you know, blowing black smoke and it wasn't going, you might say, well, okay, I must be using bad gas. So let me go to the gas station and put in some premium gas instead of regular or whatever cheap stuff they were using at the other gas station. You put in premium gas, you drive down the road and the same problem is still happening. So you basically say, okay, well, I'm putting in premium gas, why isn't my engine working better? And the issue, of course, is that the engine itself might have a worn out spark plug. But if you're looking only at the gas, you wouldn't notice or realize that you actually have to take the car to a mechanic and get the engine fixed. So same thing in the body, when we're exposed now to based on what I was starting to learn at that time, when we're exposed, for example, the blue light at night, this leads to a lower production or secretion of melatonin than that leads to less quenching of free radical molecules that are generated throughout the day, such as, you know, reactive oxygen species and so on. That leads to increased levels of mutated mitochondrial DNA and basically just suboptimal energy production is the best way to put it when we have worse sleep. So when this happens, we could eat a really great diet. But the best way to put it is a perfect diet still can't fully combat the effects of an indoor lifestyle. You know, we kind of have to get both right. And one thing that kind of adds some more context is, I have a good friend who works as he's in a recently graduated MD and he was working at a functional medicine clinic. And what he observed that caught him very much interested and surprised was that certain treatments they would do on elderly people or slightly older people would have great results. But if they did those same functional medicine treatments on a young kid who spent all day indoors and played video games and never went outside, they even though they're younger, they wouldn't actually receive the result that someone who was older was. So that sort of could very likely be because of mitochondrial damage and so on going in these in these kids and the loss of that innate ability to heal, which is often the presupposition of many of these diets and so on, you remove the bad stuff and the body is going to heal itself, maybe not now in the modern world. And I think that was the case for me. So what made you, okay, so you need to get your blue light out of your life. That sounds like a incredibly hard undertaking in the modern world.  Yeah, absolutely. Well, the biggest focus for me is the importance of sunlight exposure. So although we're, you know, we're talking about blue light and the risks and so on, simply put humans and like most organisms evolved under the full spectrum of sunlight for billions of years, as far as we know. And just as life, you know, takes energy from the environment and uses it to to grow and do all kinds of basically carry out all of our functions. We wouldn't just ignore the tremendous amount of energy present in the sun, you know, it just wouldn't make sense evolutionarily. And sure enough, that's the case. When we look at our bodies, we have a ton of different processes that are powered by the sun directly. In addition to the fact that we consume food, which is a secondary source of energy coming from the sun. So for example, some of these processes are the well-known synthesis of vitamin D. But less well-known is for example, the power of near infrared light in the sun to significantly enhance ATP production, energy production in our engines in the mitochondria. So of course, you're familiar with these red light devices. Maybe you've interviewed some of the companies that make these. This is huge. And of course, it's cool that this is being done today to help people who live an indoor lifestyle, but looking at the data indicates that it's really something that we've been doing all of history. And now we're just trying to add this back to our lifestyle. So really, it's just, in my opinion, most important to mitigate blue light exposure at night and just try to get back in line with a really healthy circadian rhythm so that we can have optimal production of all of these hormones.  I mean, there's been research obviously longer than just now, but it's people are really starting to wake up to it now. It's kind of the same thing with light, although it's even a little bit less well-known at this time. But it is so critical to have healthy light exposure in order to have our body working properly on all fronts. Well, in the plant paradox and subsequent books, I've written about the seven deadly disruptors and blue light is right up there. And in my forthcoming book, The Energy Paradox, I spend even more time talking about blue light and the dangers of blue light. Are certain people more sensitive to blue light? How would you know if you're more sensitive to blue light? Yeah, that's a really great question. So I was talking with Ben Greenfield and he was telling me that his gene test, something he did showed him that he's one of the people who are less sensitive to blue light. And so he thinks he's going to be able to avoid it or I should say get away with it and not necessarily need to wear blue blockers. For example, when exposed to artificial light at night or that it won't have a huge impact. But based on the research that I've done, it seems to be the case that it's certainly the case that all humans have this pigment in our eye called melanopsin, which is the blue light, photosensitive pigment, which basically transmits those electrical signals specifically from blue light directly to that part of the brain, the suprachiasmatic nucleus or the master timekeeping center. So I would say that everyone is very sensitive to blue light. It's kind of like saying, or asking, are more people sensitive to oxygen deprivation or less people sensitive to oxygen deprivation? Like maybe there's small variants among different types of people, like for example, people who live at the tops of the Himalayas can do with less oxygen. But generally speaking, it's sort of a biological certainty or a biological constant among almost all living organisms that we have these circadian rhythms. They're set by light. If you disrupt them in the modern world and we're the only animal plus our pets who are able to do this. So we will have this disruption going on no matter what we do. And it just on that note, it is interesting to note that, for example, wild animals typically, as far as we know, don't get cancers and all sorts of diseases. But the ones we bring into our houses with our disrupted light cycles and all kinds of other factors we have in our life, and we feed them grains, of course, they're the ones that get cancer. So it's a very interesting situation there. When we started the show, we talked about the amount of screen time that we're all having now. And it's a screen time is a big topic among parents. So how does, you know, how does blue light affect children? And you got any thoughts on screen time? Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So honestly, it's a that's the root of the issue. And I'm glad you asked about it, because it's a big concern. So screen time, of course, is one of the biggest sources of blue light for a person, for example, and I'm talking about harmful blue light again, being outdoors in the sun, you're getting a lot of blue light, but it's balanced by the red wavelengths of the sun. So blue, in a sense, is causing some more inflammation. It's a bit more stressful in a sense on the body. But we have a ton of red light in the sun, which quenches the damage that blue lights doing, and essentially heals ourselves simultaneously. Now, if we have these LED screens, which have a huge spike in the blue range of emission, and significantly less red than the sun, then we're going to have a serious disruption in these processes. And so, for example, looking at lights is one thing, or I should say being around lighting is one issue because the lights are above you or around you. Now, looking into it, the blue light, just to be clear, it has the biggest impact when it's directly focused on the inner retina, because the melanopsin, and I should say the intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells, which are these non-visual photoreceptors in the eye, they contain this pigment melanopsin, but they're specifically located in the inner retina. And when we're looking at a screen, we're getting all of this light directly in that part of the eye, whereas most of the time when you have lights around, even if they're bad lighting, you're getting a reflection, they're around you, it's peripheral exposure, but with screens, it's right on the eye. So absolutely screen use is tremendously damaging because not only is the blue light disrupting the hormone secretions of these children, the neurotransmitter secretions and so on via its disruption of the hypothalamus, and then the hypothalamus disruption, for example, of the endocrine system, of all kinds of other systems throughout the body, it's also able to just directly damage the retina because this is high energy blue light that we're getting a very, very large amount of, again, unbalanced. And then if you add the fact that many of the lighting sources we're exposed to are plugged into the electrical grid, they oscillate or they flicker at 60 hertz. So a lot of people will find that they get migraine headaches or headaches in general from being indoors under fluorescent tubes because those flicker so much imperceptibly, so they cause people to just break out in migraines. And that was a huge issue I had for the longest time. And since I just started spending more time outside, less time indoors under these kinds of lights, I essentially haven't had, I have not had a migraine at all in many, many years, just since making that small change, even though I had them frequently as a kid. So is there any research that, for instance, wearing blue blocking glasses, if you're forced to be indoors, and of course many people are, or that you're going to have a lot of screen time, is that going to, can that have an impact on migraines? You have, obviously, you have a personal experience with that. Of course, yes. So specifically with migraines, there is not a lot of research on blue light blocking glasses in particular, but research around the blue blocking glasses does, there is a lot around the impact of blue blocking glasses on melatonin. So for example, participants in studies, double blind, randomized controlled studies, show that people wearing blue light blocking glasses have increases in their melatonin secretions, often upwards of 100% increase in melatonin. So after a few hours of using the glasses, now there's not nearly as much research yet. We're looking at getting into some more studies and trials in the near future with different universities and so on. But of course, because, and again, this is something I'm sure you've got a lot of pushback, or I should say it's been a big obstacle for you, these huge drug pharmaceutical companies, they have tons of money to fund all the studies they want and cherry pick the results they want. If they have to do it 10 times, they'll do it 10 times. And for products and things that are not as, for example, mainstream or well-funded, it takes a little bit longer, but again, the research will come out. The great thing is that there is so much research from a clinical side of things on how blue light is damaging, not just to the eyes, but to the entire organism, to sleep and so on. So it does fairly logically follow that if we can eliminate that disruption, whether it's by wearing blue light blocking glasses, or for example, just by reducing the brightness or even changing the lights in our house for nighttime, then we can have some serious benefits on sleep and health. And for example, I'll just add that there's some Israeli data on what they call Allen, A-L-A-N, which is artificial light at night. And they've been able to see that as artificial light at night exposure has increased in Israel and around the world, there has been a significant correlation or a correlative increase in a ton of other diseases following that. And again, if one understands the relationship of blue light on melatonin and sleep quality, and then sleep quality on the risk of these sorts of diseases, it becomes pretty understandable that chronic sleep disruption from our lifestyle is going to lead to increased risk or just increased rates of these diseases overall. Again, combined with all the other stressors, the diet, the food we're eating, toxins, it really creates a perfect storm for people to get these diseases. Now, you mentioned nighttime light bulbs. Can you give us an example of maybe your personal practice or what can people do? Can they go to Home Depot or Costco and find nighttime light bulbs or what do you do? Yeah, absolutely. There's plenty of different options. My personal practice just to start there is pretty much darkness. So after the sun goes down, I treat the sun hours as the waking hours because the sun's there to power consciousness, wakefulness, and so on and activity. So I'm awake usually just as the light comes up or a little bit before. And then, especially with where I am, I do have a good number of hours of light still, even in the winter. So I'll be able to do everything I need during the sunlight hours. And as soon as it's 7 or 7 o'clock-ish, I'm not working anymore. I work on my own schedule anyhow. But I start to wind down. I generally avoid using artificial lighting after sunset to the extent possible. Again, sometimes I'll use my computer. Lately, I've been using it a lot after sunset because I'm doing a lot of work with my business and so on. So what I'll do is I have a software that I recommend to everyone called Iris, Iris Tech, that anyone can download. It's very inexpensive. It's maybe $10 to remove the blue light from the screens. And it's more effective than some of the competitors like Flux. And this is an amazing option for screen devices. And then for iPhones, for example, the most common cell phone people have, there's a setting hidden in the accessibility shortcuts where you can basically remove 95% of the blue light and turn the screen basically red. So if anyone just YouTube searches how to turn the iPhone screen red, you'll find it absolutely first result. And those are really effective. Now, the reason the glasses are so important and beneficial, the reason I started the business, it's because if you have your screen and your phone hacked, you're going to reduce the issue by 50% or more. But then when you go out on the street or if you're out with friends having a drink or having dinner or something like that, you're going to be exposed to all the light that you cannot put a software on. And that's when the glasses become the most beneficial because they can absolutely protect the brain and the body from circadian disruption on a regular basis. So, and as far as the light bulbs go to your question there, I would recommend people using light bulbs from a website like lowbluelights.com that have very low blue light or on Amazon you can find red or orange bulbs. Again, red, yellow and orange are the warmer, they're the less circadian active forms of light compared to blue and green and purple, which are more energetic and more prone to disrupt our natural sleep cycle. Yeah, I've told all my patients who are parents or who have newborn babies and we know they're going to be up at night. One of the most important things is in the baby's room, get one of these lights and it's amazing the difference in their sleep quality. Yes, their sleep is going to be interrupted, but if you breastfeed for instance using one of these lights, it makes a huge amount of difference in the ability to go back to sleep. Okay, now so tell us more about Rob. Now, a lot of people when they think about blue blocking glasses, they think about, you know, this is really cool and you know, I look like John Lennon and I'm going to wear these forever, but you're out with your friends and maybe we really don't want to do that. You can get lenses like these and I'm putting on a pair of lenses that are ridiculously clear. You really wouldn't know there's a change and you've got them kind of on too. So is there a difference here other than the really cool factor in terms of blocking blue light? Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So there's two categories of blue blockers and this is a really great subject to get into because the buyer has to be aware when dealing with blue light. For example, sunglasses are something that is now very well known about and people wear sunglasses all the time. That's a separate subject we could talk about. I do not actually recommend, I recommend against the use of sunglasses. Oh, say that again, would you please? Yeah, I highly, highly recommend against the use of sunglasses because of the disruption to the natural secretion production of hormones because of the stimulation of light on the eye. Not only that, I mean, so not only when we're wearing sunglasses, do we prevent the body from making optimal levels of serotonin and melatonin and, for example, cortisol in the morning and whatnot. We also create an opportunity for our eyes and our skin, but our eyes first to become tremendously damaged because part of what ultraviolet does creates the pupillary contraction response, essentially. And so if we're in a bright place, the pupil will get a little smaller and less light through. Now, if we are wearing sunglasses and we block the wavelengths particularly that stimulate that, the pupil will stay wider. So the ultraviolet might be gone, but there's a ton of high energy blue wavelengths that are still passing through and just overall high intensity of the rest of the colors of light. So those come through tremendously, tremendously strong. And for example, like someone who people might look up to and know is Laird Hamilton, the big wave surfer. And I spoke with his wife and she told me that anytime someone is wearing sunglasses, he'll actually yell at them and give them a hard time because he's done his research and knows that this is seriously damaging and disruptive. But of course, all the LA Malibu types, movie stars, actors and whatnot, everyone wants to wear sunglasses and look cool. But I believe it's a huge, huge risk. The second thing that I noticed being down here in Mexico and it just clicked for me recently is that when someone's wearing sunglasses, for example, for me, I'm of Irish descent, German and all these other European heritages. So I have light skin and light eyes. So I can get a good amount of morning sunlight, but when it comes to the midday, the strong ultraviolet, it's not, my cells aren't optimized for that. It's going to be too much, right? I could burn. And that's when we start to have issues when we burn and whatnot. Anyhow, so the light intensity coming through my eye in the middle of the day signals to me, okay, that's enough. Like I gets very overwhelming and stressful in some sense. If I'm on the beach at 12 noon. Now, if I slapped on a pair of sunglasses, it'd be like taking some sort of, some sort of drug that just basically knocks you out. Like I'm not very familiar with a lot of painkillers and drugs and that sort of thing. It's not my thing, but something that would just totally make you immune or just not immune, but unaware of what's happening around you. Where you could basically sit in the sun from 12 to 2, the strongest hours of the day, when you should not be out if you have light skin, especially in the summer, and cook yourself and fry your skin, get burnt, basically create the ground for skin cancer and that kind of stuff. And that's all just because you're wearing sunlight and turning off your body's natural danger mechanisms to when you're getting too much sun. So people think sun's bad. It's like no, we have all these mechanisms to get just the right amount, like when we get too hot and all this stuff, but we just destroy those mechanisms by using sunglasses. Well, you heard it here first folks. Yeah, actually, I have one pair of sunglasses that I almost never wear. And it's an ongoing discussion between my wife and I. And I totally agree with you. I think sunglasses are one of the dumbest inventions. And I know I'm going to get a lot of emails about this. But they absolutely get UV filters in your glasses and get some blue blockers. Speaking of which, the American Academy of Ophthalmology says that the blue blocking I wear is just silliness. What say you? Yeah, I would just turn the question right back at you and say, what is the American Medical Association or the American Nutrition Association say about lectins, right? They put them right at the bottom of the food pyramid and they say you should eat as much of them as possible. So generally speaking, I would not, for very obvious reasons, I would be very, very skeptical about the recommendations of bureaucratic government or large bureaucratic bodies such as these. But essentially, yeah, the science is very much contradicting their position that blue light is essentially harmless and that blue blockers cannot do anything. But I would say for anyone who's interested, they should do their own research. They should try the product. For example, with my company, we offer people the option to return the glasses if they don't like them at our expense and whatnot. So this is something people should just try, see if they feel better, if they sleep better just by using candles in their house in the evening rather than using, for example, bright lighting. And then they make a decision. There was an old saying that Thomas Edison was the father of all modern diseases when he created the light bulb, because prior to that, all evening light, as you know, was yellow and red spectrum from lamps from fireplaces. And that was the advent of white light at night that screwed everything up. I wouldn't go so far as he caused all the problems. But it's an interesting comment that I've always kept to heart that maybe white light at night isn't a very good idea. Yeah, I would say there's definitely, I believe, a lot of truth in that statement. And if you'd like, I can just touch on the difference between those two glasses to your previous question. So day lenses or day blue blocking glasses are these clear-ish lenses. And the reason they're nearly clear or they have a slight yellowish hue, some daytime lenses will have more of a yellowish hue, which means they're filtering a bit more blue light. Those are okay for day because they're just reducing blue. You don't need to filter out all the blue in the day. Of course, you want to have some, right? So just reducing it is more than adequate. And it has to be the right range, though, between 440 and 460 nanometers approximately. That's what these LEDs are kicking off. Most of the blue light blocking lenses that can be purchased on Amazon, companies like Felix Gray, companies like Zeni Optical, Warby Parker, the biggest online retailers, they're selling coatings on the lenses that are blue anti-reflective coatings that block blue light but only up to about 420 and a little bit up to 440 nanometers. So they don't block almost anything between 440 and 460 nanometers. So essentially, they're blocking blue light but not the wavelengths that are emitted by screens.  Because again, if you're blocking 100% to 420 and 30 or 40% up to 440 and none past 440, and the issue begins at 440 nanometers, you're basically being taken advantage of based on a lack of understanding. And so again, the biggest optical companies in the world, all of them are selling this concept as a half truth. And the issue is that they believe that the masses or people today aren't willing to accept a colored lens, a lens with any color, which could be true in some senses. But when you remove blue light that is actually present in the environment, the lens is, it has to take on color because it's a visible color and the lens is clear when all the wavelengths on one side come to the other side unchanged. So when you remove a significant portion of the blue, anything that's going to make any difference, there is going to be a slight yellowish hue in the lens. So the nighttime lenses now, they block all the light up to 550 nanometers, those ones you're putting on. And we want to block all the way into the green range up to 550 nanometers, because those are the wavelengths that are going to affect melatonin and we want it all gone basically. So again, it might be a bit of a statement, but in the modern world, I believe it will actually catch on pretty quickly. And you know, we have thousands and thousands of people who love our glasses, wear them every night and are just having the greatest results. So it's clearly something that's here to stay. So this is great information because I was just at Costco last month getting some lenses into my, I think, 30th pair of glasses. And they said, and would you like the blue light blocking lens? And I said, you got that now? Wow, you are so advanced. I didn't, because I knew I was going to talk with you. But what you're saying is that that's basically just a filter and isn't going to get the blue light that I want to block? That's correct. It's the best analogy I've come up with so far is, for example, if you're on a battlefield somewhere in Germany in World War One, and you're being bombarded with chlorine gas, and you prepared yourself with the gas mask that can only block out fluorine gas.  And it's the same thing with the blue blocking lenses. All of the probably 90% of the blue light lenses that are sold, the coatings that optometrists offer to put on top of lenses, they're blocking light up to 420 or 440 nanometers, but very little or none at all, usually around 455 nanometers, which is again the main spike of emission from these blue LEDs. So, in order to really have a significant amount of blue reduced, there is going to be color in the lens. And the color is what is causing the, or basically is the effect of the reduction of the blue because there's pigments in the lens that are absorbing light and only transmitting through a certain remaining amount. And that's what both offers the protection and causes the color. And besides, you're probably going to look really cool when people notice that you got a little color in your lens, right? Yeah, it's becoming very hip. Really hip like this. Yeah. All right. So, you know, I've written all about blue light, like I talked about, and I'm really happy that you're spreading the word and you got a great product. How do they find you? What do we, how do you get raw optics? And I'm holding up one of the kid glasses.  Can dogs have these too? Yeah, that's exactly something I was thinking about. It's so funny, you ask. I think that would be a great idea to protect people's dogs or Katie and rhythms because as far as we know, they're diurnal too, and they use melatonin to repair their cells too. So we are also hurting them with our light. So to find us, people can go to raw underscore optics. That's r a underscore optics on Instagram.  We post there on a regular basis about the benefits of sunlight, the risks of blue light, then on raw optics.com. People can find our business and our website. And we're going to have a bunch of new, you know, frame styles coming in with new seasons, new website and so on, more and more information, just as this concept continues to develop, we're doing all that. And then personally, I have a Instagram page I use called the light diet. So just a diet of our light, essentially. And what I'm doing now from a more educational standpoint, because this is more my passion, the business is my business and my livelihood and my other passion. But the light diet is my fascination. So I'm launching a podcast sometime, maybe a little later in the year to discuss, you know, mitochondrial health and so on. And maybe that's something we'd even get you on to at some point and have a conversation about, about the plant paradox and all these sorts of things. Well, yeah, my, believe it or not, my next book coming out this fall is the energy paradox. And I'm going to second your idea that light may be the best energy source for our mitochondria yet. So good for you. I'm looking forward to that one. That's going to be awesome. All right. All right, great. So, so getting back to light bulbs, what's your opinion if you had a choice between incandescent and LED bulbs? Absolutely, I would go for incandescent bulbs. The reason being that LEDs typically not always, you can have warm LEDs, but typically they have a lot more blue light. So that's one issue. And also they have this flicker effect. So there is a significant, how can I say, disruption to the brain when the lights are flickering at these imperceptibly fast levels. The brain picks it up even though we don't visually even see it. So incandescence typically do not deal with this issue, these bulbs. Also a benefit of incandescence is they produce heat. So they are actually providing just by being around us a little bit of these red and infrared wavelengths that are generally deficient in all LEDs. So that's, that's the best way to put it. Now the issue in California, someone was telling me recently, you can't even order incandescence from Amazon to California, they've made them outlawed. So you'd have to do a run to, I would do a run to Nevada or something, pick some up and come back because of the energy inefficiency. But here's the issue is they're energy inefficient because they kick off more energy, but that's actually energy that our cells use. So by being energy efficient in the light bulbs, we're being less energy, you know, getting less energy for our mitochondria and cells. And then we're going to be spending way more energy in the healthcare costs and hospitals down the road as a result of these kinds of decisions, I think. And also people should realize that it is actually technically possible to make an extremely long life incandescent bulb. In fact, I talk on one of my videos about the 100 year bulb, which is still burning an incandescent bulb 100 years continuously. So when people say they don't last very long, that's because manufacturing makes them so that they won't last very long. Consider the sources. All right. Matt, it's great having you with us and good luck with your endeavors. And we will get some blue blocking raw glasses from you. Thanks. Likewise, it's been a pleasure. All right. So now it's time for our audience question. In response to a discussion I had with Dr. Joseph McCollough about fasting. Robert Domeni, I, Robert, on YouTube wrote in and asked, how do you sleep easily during a long-term water fast? You know, that's actually a really interesting question. I noticed one of the things that when I first started doing time restricted feeding now about 15 years ago, during the winter, as many of you know, from January through June, on the weekdays, I eat all my calories in a two hour window at six, eight o'clock at night. So 22 out of 24 hours I'm fasting. And I have done three day fasts and I have done one six day fast. And McCollough and I had a lot of talk about fasting, and we've talked about that. One of the things that I notice whenever I do these fasts or when I switch over to a very limited, you know, time restricted window of eating is that I, the first few days, maybe in a week, don't need much sleep. And it's not that I can't go to sleep. It's not that I wake up. It's just that I don't need much sleep. And I actually view that and I have an aura ring. I have a whoop band and it actually tracks that I get a lot more deep sleep during these time periods and my heart rate variability actually increases during these time periods. So I don't view that less sleep during these times as a negative. I actually view it as a sign that getting back to Matt's point. I think my mitochondria become far more efficient and far more revved up.  And that's called efficiency. And if most of us who write about this are right, the more efficient I can make my mitochondria, the longer I'm going to be around doing well.  And if you're really worried about it, you know, get yourself an aura ring or a whoop or both. I like to compare the two and see what happens. But that's a great question. All right, so that's it for the Dr. Gundry podcast. We'll see you next week, same time, same station or wherever you get your podcast. Before you go, I just wanted to remind you that you can find the show on iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher or wherever you get your podcast, because I'm Dr. Gundry, and I'm always looking out for you.