It's never too early for lists. I love them. They're amazing. The power rankings. You guys are sort of splitting the duties on this and we'll start at 10 and knock it out. So Chandler, you're kicking this thing off. Yeah. Okay. At 10, the Cleveland Cavaliers, they're finally healthy. I think they have a chance to really rise on these rankings and get in that five, six range. I think this is the team we expected to start off this season after a first round exit to the Knicks last year. They're finally healthy. They got Garland back. They got Mowgli back. They're one of the hotter teams, them and the Knicks, who, unfortunately, we left off these tops. How did you leave the Knicks? They were 11th. There's not enough room on the screen. The Knicks are 1-8 in a row. Right. Cavs have only 1-2 in a row. It's like the Orlando Magic in the beginning of the season power rankings when they were like 11-4. It's like, do we really think they were 11th like that team? I think they're on the rise. I think they can make it in here, but for now, we've got the Cleveland Cavaliers at the 10 spot with a chance potential to go up. All right. At number nine, I'm going with the Sacramento Kings, sitting at fifth place in the West. Just middle of the pack team right now, hadn't really set themselves apart from the team that they were in these past couple of seasons, and so with that, the eight teams that are ahead of them, I don't think they're better, so I got them going at nine. Kings have put four in a row together. Not bad. Not bad. We have Phoenix Suns. Another team that I think is going to continue to get better when they're healthy, that Big Three is rolling. They're going to be a team to beat in the Western Conference between them, the Clippers, the Nuggets. I think those are the most poised, experienced, vet teams. You have teams like the Thunder in Minnesota that have great starts, but this team is going to be scary come post-season. There's seven games over 500, and I think that's going to continue to get better and better. Yeah, I think this is a team. By the next time we do this, they're definitely top five in a power ranking. That's what I was going to ask. I'm sorry to get going, but right now at present date, I think this is appropriate. So at number seven, I'm going to go with the Oklahoma City Thunder. Even though they're sitting one game out of the one spot, I still feel like this is one of the teams that's still inexperienced when it comes to the playoffs, when it's going to come to a deep playoff run, and I think that's going to bite them in the ass when it comes at the time of the matter. So they can't, yeah, they can't crack the top five for me right now. So I got the Thunder at seven. Even though they're having a hell of a season, I expect them to do a lot of work, but I think that inexperience catches up. Yeah, there's just something about obviously this team, and it's probably the youth of this team that you just, we don't trust. We don't trust, but they are the brightest future, obviously, in the NBA. Well, could they be disruptors? I mean, it just takes one. I think so, and I think they're going to add some size there to help Chad to move him to the four, but this is an exciting team, and they have a bright, bright future. All right. Now, up to seven. Yeah, it will get serious. At six is Philadelphia City Sixers. I'm pretty sure we told Conrad. We wanted him seventh. I don't think he did. Not a big deal, Conrad. I don't think he did. But we'll run with it. We did not. Now, the Sixers, this team scares me a little bit. With Joelle going down with this threshold that he's going to continue to try and play. Maxi being in and out. Maxi being in and out of the lineup. I can see this team sliding a bit, and that's not good. But for them to have a chance, they need fully healthy. They need Tobias Harris, Kelly Ubrini, guys like that to really step up and play well. So they're at six right now, but I do see them. I see all those teams that are 7, 8, 9, 10, kind of leapfrogging them. Wow. That's actually a big statement. But I agree. Definitely can agree with Chandler there. At number five, I am going with the defending champion, Denver Nuggets. I just feel like this team, they're top five, but I feel like they're cruising right now. They've seen what it takes. They know what it takes to be successful and get to where they need to go. So I just feel like they're not putting a lot of pressure on these teams out here. They're still getting quality wins, but I still feel like their energy, they're just cruising through the regular season, trying to get to the postseason. And that's when they turn that knob. So I got them sitting at five. At number four, we have the Milwaukee Bucks. And this is another team to me, it's like a affiliate where they're scary. They can go one of two ways. They can really take off now at Dock Rivers. They can figure out their defensive schemes or coverages. Their offense is always going to be potent. Their offense is always going to be elite. But this team is going to be one of the team that's there at the end of the Eastern Conference. They're going to have to battle it out with the Celtics or the Sixers. I feel like we're taking for granted that it's going to be Sixers and Bucks in the end. Do you think the Knicks or the Caz are really going to... I mean, it's hard to tell, but right now they just seem to be having fun. I don't think I've said it. I like Celtics Bucks. Yeah, I like Celtics Bucks. Go ahead, we'll see. Maybe we should place a bet on it. Yeah, I think this team, I think they have a chance to continue to get better. They're healthy now. Guys like Jay Crowder, Pat Cawton, they're going to really have to defend and continue to play well on that side of the ball. So I see them kind of sticking right here. I do think they'll end up finishing second in the Eastern Conference. I think them sitting at four is based strictly on what the potential of what that team can be. So I think they deserve to be right there at four. Number three, I'm going with the T-Wolves. Sitting number one in the West, playing really good basketball. You got to give this young team a lot of credit, man, with Anthony Edwards. Cat playing well. Rudy Gobert have an opportunity to be defensive player of the year again. This is a team that's playing really well. They're actual contenders. I'm still giving them the inexperienced car as well as the Thunder, even though they're two or three spots behind them. Because I think just with the Eastern Conference, you got to factor them in as well. But I think they have the same problem as the Thunder. A lot of post-season inexperience, but I still got them at number three. Yeah, I got to say, this is a team that I didn't see this happening. I didn't, I thought that was Full's goal a little bit. I thought they were going to kind of tinker off. But this team is, can defend. This team is great at home. They're 17 and four at home. They get home quarter advantage. I can see them advancing and that they're a real threat. They have size, they have defense. They have an absolute star in Anthony Edwards. And Carlyle in the Towns is shown, he can still go get you 60 on any given night in a loss. In a loss. Okay, now we're down to the nitty gritty here, Michelle. Oh, yes. Now we're down to the nitty gritty. I preferably would have probably flipped these two again, not to throw anybody under the bus. But I think the Celtics, I think they're the best team in the NBA, but we got them at two right now. They did just lose by 19 to who we have at one. But I think this is the most poised team. I think this is the best duo in the NBA. Everyone knows the depth. They're a little thin, but when they're healthy and they have for Zynga's plan at the level he's playing, Drew Holliday has been a game changer for them. I think this is just their chance. I think this is their year. I think they will be the NBA champions this year. But right now, we got them at two. I want to bet more. You got to respect them. Bench or no bench, this team is very consistent. And you just got to go with them and not bet against them. So for my number one spot, it is obviously going to be the Los Angeles Clippers. Sitting at fourth place in the West, but I don't think there's a team in the league that's playing better basketball than them right now. So when we talk about power rankings, when we talk about making a real run at a championship, this looks like the team that has all of the components. They can defend, they have four different, they actually have five or six different guys that can put 20 on the board. They have depth. And the most important thing out of everything that Russell Westbrook has brought to the table for the team, they're having a ton of fun. It looks like they actually enjoy playing with each other and building and embracing the process of trying to put together a championship run. So I like the Clippers at number one right now. I can't wait to get where my app works so I could put some money on that plus 700. To me, this is the one team that they really struggle on the road. So getting home court advantage, they're 11 and 11 on the road and they're 19 and four at home. So home court advantage is a huge, huge priority for this team. So I expect them to continue to play hard, continue to try and get as many wins as possible because they need home court advantage, come play off time. If both sides are healthy, it's the best of seven, Celtics or Clippers, who are you taking? Clips. Celtics. Interesting. I feel like I'm with Lou weirdly enough. Listen to that. If you called me this months ago, no chance. These two teams are actually both two places that I consider my second homes, but I just, I like the Clippers right now. All right. We'll keep it high on you.  Quick break, when we come back a little, you buy in that. We'll run it back.  I know our next guest from the league and the show Black Monday. He also hosts the very popular podcast. How did this get made? It's Paul Shear joining us from the sexiest room we've ever had on the show for sure. What's up, Paul? Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. I am so excited to be here because for a little bit yesterday, as a Clippers fan, I thought I was gonna have to come in here with my head hung low for basically for about three quarters and a half. Oh dear. I felt like I would have to come in here and make a lot of excuses, but I'm very happy to be here after that triumphant comeback yesterday. Yeah, can we start there, by the way, because you grew up in New York. Yes. Then you moved to LA, but you don't pick the Lakers, you pick the Clippers. Why? No, you can't. You can't pick the Lakers. It's a bandwagon choice. I came from New York, a huge Knicks fan, but my thought was, if I'm gonna be here in the LA for a bit, I wanna bring my kids to games and I want them to have a team and so I picked the Clippers. They were exciting at that point and it was a fun, new version of the Clippers and yeah, I've been happy ever since. And one of those reasons why is from one of those guys right there in your desk, Lou Will, I mean, come on, one of the best. This hasn't been, as a Clippers fan, 2018, 2019, that season, this season, are my two favorites in recent memory. That's pretty good. Paul, I appreciate that. Yeah, this is gonna be a fun one. So Paul, you grew up a Knicks fan. Why not just a Knicks fan? That's tough. Because if I say a Knicks fan and live in LA, I gotta watch four o'clock games and then what? Like, I get excited once a year when my team comes to town. I can't do that. I can't do that to my kids. Now my kids actually have a team that can go to multiple games. Like, I never liked that kind of thing where it's like you'd see somebody in New York and be like, well, we're, you know, we're Minnesota fans. Like, well, yeah, you're not Minnesota. Come on. That's so sensible. What are the best parts about being a Clippers fan? Is that people yell at me all the time when I'm wearing my Clippers stuff here in Los Angeles in previous seasons. So, you know, it's part of the city. It's part of what you live for. Makes sense. That makes sense. Paul, I know you've been to a ton of Clipper games. I gotta ask, what's your favorite to memory? Oh man, there is a great game. I feel like two years ago, or yeah, like as a comeback against the Celtics and it was the first time, I think that Clippers have this energy where the stadium, it's in LA, where everybody is coming into town, right? So, whether it is New York or whether it is Boston or Sacramento, it always feels like somebody else's port sometimes. And I remember like Pat Bev getting that crowd to be behind the Clippers on this comeback. Like we shut up a Boston crowd. And that to me was an amazing night just because it felt like the tide shifted. And from there forward, I feel like we've kind of stayed a little bit as a Clipper stadium in that disgusting crypto.com. Vile. By the way, was the 42 that Lou dropped, was that a big moment in the family? Did you guys celebrate? Huge, yes. I literally, well, the reason why you're going to see some of this boudoir back here is because I was running to go get my Lou William stuff. I have it in a closet and I was just getting it out and I was like, I don't have enough time. I don't have enough time. I was like going through everything real quick. So yeah, no, I mean, that was huge. I mean, there's been so many great things. I mean, the comeback against Golden State, like amazing. Like so many great Clippers moments. And I feel like it's all kind of coming together right now, which is really exciting. Paul, besides Lou, who's your favorite Clipper of all time? Oh my gosh, of all time.  I would say like Lou and Pat Bev to me were the guys that I loved watching play. I just love the energy. I felt like the toughest thing for you guys to do, at least from my vantage point was like, you guys carried that team. You carried everything about it. You created culture. And that to me is so important. Like I love the, you know, the Blake Griffin years and everything like that. But the time when it was just you two, that was really a special time, a special moment. Amazing. I love the internet. You mentioned Blake. He's obviously now post career and during his careers, he's dabbling into comedy and stand up and he's legit funny. Oh, I've done shows with Blake. Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. What kind of stuff have you done? And what do you actually think?  No, he's actually funny. The first time I did anything with Blake, it was like me, Blake and DeAndre Jordan. We were doing a live read. Like we took the script, the space jam and we put Blake in it instead of Michael Jordan. And then we all cast all the characters around it. And that was a blast. And then Blake has come on like improv shows that I've done at Largo and, and the thing is, I think that you think like, okay, it's, it's Blake, it's going to be whatever. But he actually is very funny. So, and I think he cares about being funny. Like, you know, he's not like just doing it on a lark. Yeah, I think, I think people say someone's funny but we have different levels for it. And he actually is funny in the world. Which I kind of love. I think it's tricky because you have like people, like, you know, like Lou, like Lou's, you know, you're, you make music, right? And I think it's hard when you, people know you as one thing and then you also do something else. And I feel like, but you can do it. You can split the difference. Like you and Dame and I feel like, I don't think there's any other comedians in the NBA. Like, I think there are a lot of funny players, but no one else trying to do comedy actively, right? Nah, I don't think so. No, I don't think, no. Paul, I played for both the Lakers and the Clippers. I know. So I've experienced firsthand the way that the city treats one jersey opposed to the other. Even though I think the Lakers are so ingrained in the culture of Los Angeles, what do you think it takes for the Clippers to become that team in LA? You know, for me, I feel like you got to start with the kids, right? You have to have something to grow up into. And I feel like that's what's going on now. When the Clippers and Bomber came in, he started basically financing all these public parks, right? And putting up these Clippers hoops. I feel like that's important. And the kids I know, like when Kawhi came to town and he gave those backpacks to every kid in public school. Like I feel like that's the energy that you kind of need. LeBron will always be LeBron. And even though every Laker fan I talked to is like, LeBron's not a Laker. I don't understand that mentality. And I love the, and look, the Lakers, the Lakers are like the Dallas Cowboys, but they are basketball. Like you can't knock them down, but you can only expect to compete and make it exciting. And I feel like that's what the Clippers have been trying to do, and I think it's working. I won't make any Cowboys jokes right now, because it's too soon for some. That's painful. But it wasn't that long ago, you got into a bit of a Twitter beef with the Lakers fans, Shannon Sharp, which is obviously considered the Lord's work. Where I'm from, any regrets in that one? Never. No. Yes. How does that even go back and forth? Like that's a tough guy to get in a beef with. It is, it is a tough guy.   And I feel like most of my fights on Twitter have been basically around Clippers stuff. So it's fun. I mean, because it doesn't mean anything either. And yeah, I mean, maybe one day I'll go on Club J.J. and I'll do a three and a half hour interview and break down all my beefs with everybody in the world.  Well, it's going to be the best three and a half hours ever. Or they did it. They did it. I don't know. I guess a poll not that long ago in the off season talking about who drinks the most in arena. This actually shocked me. Because the Clippers not only drink the most, they also eat the most. And when I think of LA, I don't think of eating. But are you shocked by that about your fans? I was because we share a stadium with the Lakers. Yeah, that's interesting.  Because whenever I go to a Lakers game, people seem pretty drunk. Yeah. Yeah, I'm shocked by that. I'm surprised it's not like Detroit, because it was getting wasted watching that team play. Yeah. OK, that's too much. I didn't know we had a culture of drinking. I didn't know you did either. I like that you got it. I feel like that's not the vibe I get when I played there. Learn that today. No, I mean, I'd also argue, too. It's like, you're right. There's not really a culture of drinking. And it's like everyone's driving to go to that Staple Center. Like, it's like, you know, you got to come into it. Like, that's a very much a car city. The cops should just sit there and have a field day. Yeah, just sit at the parking garage and wait. Good call. Way to help the cops, Chandler. Yeah, Paul. Your Clippers are currently fourth. In the West, I have a CPG. Kawhi Hardin, the album planned pretty well. Does this team have enough to win a championship this season? I would never say anything that would jinx any. Opportunity in any way. I'm just enjoying the ride. That's all I want to do. I'm enjoying the ride. Like, look, every team has a potential to do anything, really. But no, I think as a Clippers fan, like I am frightened out of my mind, right?  But when will something terrible happen? Like, I'm a Jets fan as well. And Aaron's like, everyone's like, you're excited about Aaron Rodgers? You excited? I'm like, no, I'm not. Because I know what's going to happen. Something terrible. And that happened when the first five plays of the first game. So, like, I am cautiously optimistic. I'm enjoying everything. And that's all I'm going to say. Like, I know that Shaq was like pushing PG to be like, if you want a championship, you got to say it. I'm like, no. Because the minute Chuck says that we're going to get a championship, we're going down. Aaron, please. Because I got to keep our head low. Just keep on winning games and move forward. Well, listen, I actually like the Clippers coming out of the West this year. I just feel like they're loaded with talent and with that, they're opening their new arena next year. Have you been able to see it? Have you been able to tour it? And how excited are you to not finally have a home or your own and not share an arena with the Lakers? I'm very excited. I always forget how to pronounce it, but like the innit-dome or intuit-dome or intuit-dome. Intuit. The intuit-dome. I got my seats. I got my season tickets all locked up. And I'm excited that they're doing weird stuff. Like, the wall is amazing to me. It's basically all behind one basket. Just fan. It's great in theory. It can't be another fan. Yeah, it's great in theory. Yeah, it's like, and I think like, it's fun to go to these places and just feel like, oh, we're going to try to do something different. And everything I've seen from Bomber, it seems like if you present them two nice options, he's like, yeah, yeah, we'll do them both. You know, so I feel like that whole stadium is going to be pretty magical and exciting. And whenever you get to see a new stadium, it's always kind of cool. Just was in Golden, you know, I just saw a Golden State game last year. And that stadium is beautiful to chase the arena. It's great, you know? So I feel like it's exciting whenever you open up a new stadium and hopefully they'll bring some more culture in there. The thing, and the thing I'm most excited about as a Clippers fan, as an LA driver is that apparently Bomber has made some agreement with the Department of Traffic in Los Angeles. So they're going to be opening up lanes to Englewood. So four lanes in and four lanes out and they can be able to control all the stop lights so you don't have any traffic once you get off the highway. That, I was like, the cops are really gonna fast on the new highway.  Yeah, wow. Oh my God. I mean, you just have for every highway, not just the usual ones. I know, I really, I mean, all we need is Bomber to buy more things.  It's brutal. Yeah. And there's nothing in and out. So I feel like this is a good thing. I feel like Bomber understands, like it's a commitment asking everybody to go there. You know, but like, let's, let's do it. That is awesome. It's like the Dodger game. The Dodger game. I love going off. I can't, I won't do it. I'd rather just sit there and watch them on TV. Yep. Cause getting out is the worst in the world. I have, yeah, I live kind of near the Dodgers and it's like, you feel that traffic. It just, it's like, it just, like I feel the energy of it just on my house. Sucking through the, it's just the worst. I've never finished a Dodger's game. No, you either gotta go super early and leave early or go late and leave early. But you can't leave early, but you're not going on time. You're not going on time, ever. No, you can't do that. I'll tell you this. As a dad, what makes it all the worse is once you get in your car and your kid's like, I have to go to the bathroom. That's the worst. And you're like, oh, I don't know. I know we're going to be in this car forever. Forever. The thing you have to get out, go back in, go bathroom it back in. Although a lot of truth. Thank you, Tim. I don't know if that's what you meant. You can curse on this. Now we're in a whole different interview. Chandler has a special contract. Yeah, there's always that option. To do what everyone wants. Paul, this has been a pleasure. Make sure you check out the podcast, How Did This Get Made? And pre-order the book, Joyful Recollections of Trauma. Of Trauma. Yes, thank you so much. I got a book. Thanks so much, everybody. Thank you so much. I'll be back. We'll run it back in a minute.   That man has a family. First up, Rudy Gobert. Oh, this is a fun one. Mm, offensive player of the year on the defensive. Oh, oh, oh. Didn't see that. That was fun. I spoke too soon. Didn't see that happening. Yikes. Yeah, he's like, ah, no. That was, this play has everything. I like it. This is defensive player of the year last year. Dunkin' on the guy that's probably gonna win it this year. It takes you on a trip and then it takes you on another journey as we see them again. It's like, now it feels personal. No. Oh my heavens. I feel like he's angry at Rudy. I feel like he wants the defensive player of the year. He wants to put Rudy, not. Yikes. What? I don't even know what I said. English is that. Sure, yup. Y'all are up and under with the dunk. I like it. Kale used to do this, but just didn't dunk. This is a different clip? Yeah. Thanks for playing, Lou. Same type of way. It's like on the other end of the court and everything. Oh, it goes next in. Oh, look at that. There you go. Oh, there's your rookie of the year, guys. Represent for the serve. There he is. There he is. That's better than a 70 on your head, but let's keep moving. They only lost by 10. I don't know why we're not talking about that more. I fought for it spurs, but we didn't get it. But I'll continue the good fight. They only lost by double digits. They only lost by 10. They should have lost by 30. When I saw Embiid had what he had in the first quarter, I thought, oh, they're losing by 30. I think the producers are trolling us, by the way, because all of these clips have one thing in common, 95% of the time. Which is what, buddy? It's a white guy getting dunked on. I just like what he does it. It's usually what happens. That's usually what happens. You're usually jealous. It's either taking a charge or getting out of the way or getting nuts on your forehead. That's usually what happens to the Caucasians and the Embiids. The Caucasians. A skewed Henderson. Let's see, oh. I'm sober, who? Look, the trend is broken. That was just a layup. Okay. Oh my dear. And it's probably a black guy getting dropped. That he hasn't. This is the guy I'm gonna show you. Who is Ben Sherard? Those are the rescinders. Just Sherard? Sherard. Oh my God. Is that Shepard? Is that Shepard? Maybe? Let's try it. I like Sherard. Who's Ben Sherard? Please clip that for his sizzle reel for whatever job you go get next. Slim Pickens. Slim Pickens after this episode. Nick Kloss. Classic. There you go. There he is, Lou. Back time. Watch your head, cousin. Round. Watch your head, cousin. Look at this. Easy, bro. Yeah. Are they not teaching verticality anymore? Swipe and get out of the way. Swipe. Get out of the way. Stay out of foul trouble.  He's not letting this happen. He's letting that happen. But I'm on the ground. And he stares at the back of his head kind of rudely. That's, mm, mm, mm. And he gave a little extra hang there. I would take it personally, next time. He had no shot. He was so late. It's okay. Panic button time. God, I feel like this is weird, but through December, Deer and Fox was averaging over 30 a game and since the first of the year, that's down to 22, under 42% from the field.  I'm panicking because for them to be that good and for them to take that next step, he's gotta be great. And he hasn't been great. He wasn't good again last night. I think he finished with 12 points, five of 16. He's just not efficient. He's not getting on the break. He's not, it's not coming to him easy. Am I panicking on his game or him not eventually being a number one option? No, I think they have to have a really good two and three option, which is a bonus. And we don't know who the third one is, but no, I'm not panicking on him. He's young, he's exciting. He's so explosive, so athletic. He's just going through a little, a little rough patch, a little rough patch. All right, fair. Lou, perfect timing on this next one with the breaking news that Shams had for us in the earlier in the show. Kyle Lowry may or may not be available at some point because Devin Booker's scoring and assist numbers have gone down. So are you hitting the panic button on him as a point guard? Yeah, hit the panic button. He's not the guy to set the table. He is the table. He needs somebody else to set the table for him. And so I believe help is on the way. You know, I think they'll be active in the trade market, get somebody there. They can get those guys in their spots to be able to be efficient on that offensive end. But yeah, that's just not, just not what he do. It wasn't working. Even though they're starting to pick up some steam now, that's just not his thing. Never made sense to me. He's the best shooting guard in the NBA. Let's make him a point guard because we get Bradley Beal, like why? Maybe they just couldn't figure out a better plan, but maybe now a better plan will fall upon them. Chandler Jalingreen, number two, overall pick back in 2021. And now in his third year, he's averaging the lowest points of his career, shooting under 40%. Is it too early to hit the panic button on him? Is it too early to panic that he's a franchise changing face of the franchise player? No, I'm panicking. I don't think he's that guy. Is he gonna be a 20-point scorch? Shoms, who is it? Shoms, who is it? What's going on, Shoms? Take it. Is he a really good young player that can continue to get better and grow into an all-star one day? Yes. Is he that guy to lead a team to a championship and be the best player on a great team for years to come? No, I don't think so. All right, again, perfect timing. Hornets, 10-31. Yeah, they've lost 18 of the 21, but they won last night. And they got Cal Lowry coming in. And they got Cal Lowry heading their way, some picks. As a franchise, Lou, this is a daunting question. Are you hitting the panic button on Charlotte? As a franchise? As a franchise. No, I wouldn't go that far. Where's the light? This particular group I was built, I would hit the panic button. PJ Washington, Miles Bridges, LaMelo Ball, they've had that core for a few years now, and it's just not working. Usually when you put that young core together, you'll start seeing some of the fruits of having that happen. Looks like they're going backwards. They're not really getting to a point where this is going to work. So I'm hitting the panic button on blowing this particular young group up, put some other pieces around LaMelo Ball. But as a franchise, I love Charlotte. So it begins. If MJ's sold, I'm out. Like, he's out, I'm out. That's actually fair. Yeah, I mean, he paid at the panic button. He hit the panic button and he got out. I actually, I can tell. It made crazy bread. Might be the smartest thing you've ever said. The Thunder, third worst team in the league in rebounding. That's weird, don't they have a really tall guy? Are you hitting the panic button on their title chances if the rebounding doesn't get better? Yes, because I do think that's a glaring hole that they have. And I don't think you want guys like Chet or Wimbanyama to be taking that. Don't throw Wimbanyama in there. He's not a big physical five. He can't do that. So they need, yeah, I think Lou mentioned like an Andre Drummond type, someone like that. Just to come in and give you six fouls. Big body. Yeah, just a physical player. They don't have a real five man on this roster. So yeah, it's a hole. Yes, they're great. Yes, their future's bright. But this is an issue with them and you don't want Chet to be their starting center with his body type, with his physicality. You just don't want that. You want him to be able to do what he does best. And that's not pound with friggin, you know, go-kitch and indeed. Ooh, no, I don't think that would end well. Do the pretty stuff. The Nets 13 and 10, they started the season that way, but now they've lost 15 of 19. Lou, panic button time. It's probably the team we've talked about the least. This entire year. Weirdly, I know. I'm sitting here looking at the standards from, to me in my opinion, from one through seven, those teams are going to be locked in, you know. But I think they can compete with Orlando. They can compete with Chicago and Atlanta to try to sneak into that playing system. So I'm not hitting the panic button yet, but they do got to play better basketball. Yeah, it doesn't look great, especially if they start making some of these moves that they may or may not make. Anything? Nothing to keep asking. Fine, we'll keep going to you. Coming up here who Doc Rivers thinks is the best player in the NBA when Run It Back returns.  He's back. Co-founder of Enjoy Basketball, host of the Kenny Beecham Podcast. It's Kenny Beecham. And look, we got a lot of really important basketball news, Kenny. And we're always happier here. But the most important question I can come up with is the fact that we had Paul Shear on Monday's show and he said that Space Jam is a horrible name. You're from Chicago, what time today? Where are you on this? As someone that's watched Space Jam like a hundred times in my life, I can't give you how Paul's take here. I'm sorry. I heard it. I know he's a movie guy and I respect his opinion on movies more than a lot of people but just the nostalgia factor is enough for me to say it's a good movie. That's what I thought. Yeah, I mean we'll. Maybe I'll re-watch it but. We were younger when it came out so as a kid you were a little more inspired by watching it.  Watching it as an adult is probably the ball might have watched it as an adult. It might have. Yeah, so I don't. All right, homework assignment, re-watch it, come back, we'll talk about it. I can do that. I like how you said it's Michael Jordan. Why is he living in that two bedroom house? He's playing himself. Why is the house bigger? That was fair. Kenny, obviously yesterday a lot of news around the league but especially in Milwaukee, the Bucks firing Adrian Griffin, Doc Rivers appears to be in line to take over. What are your thoughts? Who do you think the Bucks should hire? It's hard to have a real good shortlist halfway through the season. Before the season started obviously they had Kenny Atkinson, they had Nick Nurse who's looking amazing in Philadelphia and they opted to go with the first-time head coach. And a lot of that was because he had the backing of Giannis and everything. Of the people available, I'm guessing Doc is the best. It's hard to say, man. It's hard to say. Obviously in 2008, you know, he had the good run with the Boston Celtics but since then he's failed to make it past the second round in the playoffs in most cases. Obviously he's also never close to talent like Giannis. So maybe Doc is the right answer. We just have to wait and see, I guess. You know what they say? You can tell him somebody's lying. Yeah. When there is pitch, high pitch, tall, he goes up. His tall, he was on an opera. I'm Ron Bergen, I guess he's the best. I mean, we don't know. It's like, that's what's weird about firing a guy so early but it's fine. It's been done, it's over. We had a lot of breaking news yesterday. Shoms was a busy, busy man. Terry Rozier in the middle of the show was traded to Miami. What do you think about that deal? How does it look for the heat moving forward? I love it because they obviously struggled recently, offensively.  Something I don't really understand but they just needed another guy that could go out there and get a bucket and Terry Rozier has had a very underrated season. The only thing that I worry about a little bit this year is that he's shooting 30% on catch and shoot shots. Obviously in Miami, he won't have the ball as much as he did in Charlotte, especially when Lamello was out.  So maybe under Miami, he can get back to that. They just needed another bucket and Terry Rozier has had such great performances in Charlotte. He's been a big shot maker for Charlotte in the few close games they've had over the last two seasons. So I love it. I mean, I hate it for Cal Lauri, obviously, but I think he'll be fine with the bag that he got a few years back. So... Kenny, everyone, Zach Levine. He's a name that we've been hearing for a very long time. He's been out with an ankle injury and the bulls kind of look good without him. Does he get traded before the deadline? And if so, do they just completely blow it up? Trade to Maher, get rid of everybody. I've been waiting for the shams of bait that it's had. But with the injury and something that I'm sure everybody agrees on, when you have a player of Zach Levine's caliber we've seen in here in Chicago, he's not gonna be your one option. And a lot of cases, he's probably not gonna be your two option on a very good team. So why should we pay him $40 million annually to be the third best player on the team? And I think that's where the hiccup is. The bulls have made the least amount of trades since 2021. So I'm assuming that that means the front office is holding on to all the assets and asking for crazy returns. I'm hoping that we get the trade done, mostly for Zach's sake, because even when he came back from the first injury, you can tell that he was very passive. He didn't wanna step on any toes. Kobe White was playing very well. I think a change of scenery is necessary, but I don't know how likely it is because the contract is so big. So what is the deal you would most likely to see happen before the deadline? For the bulls? For anyone. For anyone? Wow. Oh, for anyone. I kinda wanna see the 76ers buy in a little bit. I know they've preached flexibility from the off-season standpoint, and I completely understand that. But I feel like there are some people on the market that you can trade for right now and maintain that flexibility come off-season. I think Joel and Bede is playing some of the best basketball I've ever seen in my own two eyes. I understand the critics, like we gotta get past the second round, you know, we gotta play all these games and the plows, but just looking at the regular season, he's having his best year, and I think that they need another guy on the team that can create their own shot outside of just him and Terry Smaxy. Again, I don't know who that guy necessarily is, but them just sitting on the expiring contracts and those two additional first round picks that the Clippers gave them would probably be a mistake in my opinion. I wonder if that answer will be the answer to my question, because I wanted to ask you, give me a team that will absolutely not win a title unless they make a move. Yeah. It is silly, it is silly. So they have to do something. This is the way it is. Look, whoever did the Dak Prescott, Joel and Bede memes the other day, that's not cool, but also kind of funny. And I feel like that's what I'm hearing is like, until they can get over that hump, we can't do much with it. So you need another piece. The man just dropped 70 and everybody was like, well in the playoffs, he don't play well. So it's just like, he needs it for his own legacy. He needs it for his own respect factor, because nobody is gonna deny the fact that he's one of the top talents in basketball. But all the other top talents in basketball either have a conference finals appearance and NBA finals appearance or a championship. And he has none of those things and he's about to be 30. So even he mentioned it in his post game, like I dropped 70, but it doesn't matter because I haven't played well in the playoffs. It's like, this is such a great moment for him. But we're talking about April, May and June.  But to be fair, Joel, from my memory, he hasn't been healthy most of the playoff runs. He's broken his face, he's broken his hand. He's always had an interest. So hopefully this year, this playoff coming, he'll be healthy and then he can show you that he's not Dak Prescott. Kenny, sticking with Joel, obviously we know about the big game the other night, looking like the front runner for the MVP. He has missed 10 games. So do you think the NBA is going to regret this whole threshold of the 65 game minimum for these awards? I think that the first year's trial, they're going to keep it for year number two. Because I'm looking at Joel and B's success and how dominant he is. The number two option in this, if Joel and B fails to hit the 65 game threshold, it's not like we're falling off from the best player to league, to somebody that's not that. It's the guy right under him, which is Nikoli Okic, who's almost equally as valuable when it comes to this MVP award. So it's, I think that no matter what, we're going to have an MVP that we feel very confident and good about. But I think that Joel and B, right now, again, just thinking about the first 41 games of the regular season, he's been head and shoulders above everybody. I mean, he's putting up legendary stuff. And I think that the NBA also added something where you could refute some of the games missed. So maybe we get that from Joel and B where he ends up with 63 games. Enough. Well, how does that even work? Two or three games. What do you mean you missed the games? How are you going to refute them? I refute it. What do you think the number should be? You know, asking everybody. I think there should be a number. If you play 64 games and you're as dominant as Joel and B, you're the MVP. Okay, but what if you play 50 games when you're dominant? And don't vote for him. Like, I don't think there should be a threshold of games. Well, you know that's not going to happen. There's people that don't deserve to be an All-Star. But think about it, if Joel plays 64 games and Joker plays 66, he gets to win it even though Joel had a bad season. Well, you're picking literally the sweetest of more. That's going to happen in one of these years and we're going to be like, damn, he got screwed. Well, let's wait till we get to there. Kenny, my next question to you is because I know my answer. Wimby, Chet, rookie of the year, I think it's... Don't, no, don't lead the way this. Go on. Who's your rookie of the year and why? If the season was in right now, it would be Chet. Come on. But I think that once we get to April, it's going to be Wimby. There we go. No, Kenny, Kenny, I agree with all your takes till right now. Don't do this. Well, you know, you're not watching the Wimby stuff. Yeah, I'm watching them win seven games and I'm watching Chet be on the number one team in the Western Conference right now. Bless me real, Chandler. It's not Wimby that's causing them to win seven games. He's playing 25 minutes per game and he's averaging 26 points in that timeframe. Like it's only so much one man can do. And we're talking about a 20-year-old. He's not Bron, he's not KD. He can't single-handedly put a team on his back yet. But he is one of the most impactful defensive players in all of basketball as a 20-year-old. And his points per minute, I know we're talking advanced stats here, but like his points per minute is on par with some of the best players in ball. And Chet has the luxury to be the third option almost nights and that's not a knock on Chet because his efficiency is really good.  And I think that when we come to April we're going to look at these last 40 games but like man Wimby was playing out of his mind. For the individual, the rookie, who's the better rookie? He's unbelievable. Where'd you find this guy? He's unbelievable. Thank you, Gray Ranger. Look at that. But I do think the only way Wimby wins if Chet goes down like a season-ending intro now I think it's a lock. I think he's running away with it. Rookie on the best team of all year. Forget Rookie in the year. Chet is an all-star this year and he's borderline all-MBA. You don't think he's going to win Rookie of the Year? I think Chet is kind of plateaued a little bit. They have been winning. His numbers aren't as good as Wimby's. Thank you. The all-star. The points per game in the minutes are, it's a nut stat from Wimby. He's, listen, he's unbelievable. Yeah, it's weird. Important numbers like that. He's unbelievable. But I think when you look at an award like this you have to look at everything and his team is one of the worst teams. Well, where in Rookie of the Year? And his team is one of the best teams. Does he say look at everything? Are we not doing Co-Rookie of the Year anymore? Oh, I'd be pissed if he didn't. I would be pissed. It's been about 26, 27 years since the last game. Right, hell, J.K. was the last one. Oh, I'd be livin'. I wouldn't want it. Give it to him. That would be such a cop out. I would also say Chet is more available. Wimby has been set out some games. Yeah, and Chet's technically, it's the second year in the league. I don't want to give it to him. You like the Spurs or no? You like the Spurs?  The true Rookie Hoodie? Yeah. Chet's not a true Rookie. Neither was Blake Griffin. He still ran away with the Rookie of the Year. Yeah, and he could argue that as well. Oh, when Wimby playing pro since he's eight, that doesn't count for something? Well, eight. Eight.  Fine, let's stick with the thunder for one second because they played the Wolves, they beat them, and after the game, Edwards was not happy. Thought it was very hard to sort of play against them. SGA getting the calls he got. Afterwards, SGA had the post on Instagram. With another classic SGA caption, post game, post game, you know the drill. But we want a rivalry here. So let me ask you that. One, are you here for a rivalry between Anthony Edwards and SGA? 100%, our league needs more rivalries. Like this season, we just saw the Bucks and the Pacers start to brew. And if we can get two of the top young talents in basketball to dislike each other on court, like this is Canada versus USA too? Like this is everything we can really ask for in a rivalry. I'm here for it. We need, and is one of those guys that's always gonna talk, and I need him to continue that so we can have more rivalries. Now, the tough question is, you got to start a franchise today. Which one are you starting? That is tough. I've seen, I think I've just seen Shay do it more consistently over the last couple of seasons.  He's top three, top four at MVP. Anthony Edwards still hasn't got there. Yeah, I think he has the possibility to get there. But I'm gonna take the proven all NBA player in the moment and maybe I'll look back on this and say it was the wrong decision, but I'll go with Shay. It's hard to argue that. I'm thinking in my head, how do I argue with him right now? But it's tough, man. SGA, he's done it. He's all NBA. And I think he's a better two-way player, but not SGA. So the question is, he's leading the way he can score, like he's done it all. Do you think SGA can, as he reaches full potential, you think there's more for him? But I think and has a lot more room for growth. I think that's why some GMs make their draft picks of the potential of who a man could be and besides the potential of who SGA could be. I think SGA too is in a great situation where he's 25 years old and he's the vet. He's the leader of this young AAU team that's kind of taken over the NBA. You know what I mean? So he's got the keys. Ant does as well, but he's in a different system. Last year, they struggled with the whole Rudy Goverra trade didn't work. Now it's starting to pan. Now it's starting to work out. I do think he's one of the better two-way players, but I'm with Kenny here at SGA. He's something. Can't beat it. Kenny, all-star starters coming out on Thursday tomorrow. Steph Curry currently ahead of SGA and then in the East. You have Trey Young over Gauzek.  Tyrus Maxi, you have Boy Jalen Brunson. So how's that patrol you almost started in the all-star game one year? Andrew, we can start it one year. Should Steph and Trey be all-star starters? Nah. And that doesn't mean that they're bad or nothing, you know? Like Luca and Shay are literal MVP candidates. Steph Curry's not that this season. Like I want to see those guys. I think on the guards on the Eastern Conference, I feel pretty good about Terry's Halliburton being one. He's number one in voting. And then that second guard spot, it could be Jalen Brunson. Come on here. It could be Donovan Mitchell, but it's probably not going to be Shay. I mean, it's probably not going to be Trey. He doesn't have the same respect amongst his peers as we saw in previous all-star voting situations. So I don't think it's going to be Trey. That's crazy to me that that could happen. But you're right, we do get some weird pops and this doesn't make any sense. Well, talking about all-star weekend, is there anything that you would like to see change for all-star weekend? Something new, something added? I just want to have the good dunkers participate. I was there in Cleveland and it was... I said to the G-League guys. But you know what? I'll take Mack McClellan because he made it happen last year. But we haven't had, other than Mack McClellan last year, a really, really good dunk contest since Aaron Gordon versus Zach Levine. And we're just waiting. I think most players just don't want to be labeled a dunker because we saw that for both of those players for years. And then Zach Levine had to make two all-star appearances before people start to realize that he was really good at basketball. So I just want players to be in it, man. The moment that we get people dedicated to Jaws, the Zion's dedicated, that's when things come back. But I just don't think it's possible. I don't think we can get them there. So that would be your pick. That's who you'd like to see, like a...  I would like to see like a one-on-one competition. That's much better than like a skills challenge or... A lot to do with the king of the court situation. Yeah, like I'd love to see Tatum play Devin Booker one-on-one with two dribbles. Like, you know what I mean? Or Tatum against Jaylen Brown. Exactly. You remember that one? That is more exciting than watch Wimby like go coast-to-coast and throw a ball through a hole. For the fans. Why do you hate Wimby? I was watching chat with him. Gug. I'm sick of that. As former players, do y'all think that the one-on-one thing would work? Like, would you be able to convince real players to do it? Yeah, I don't. It's tough to even get them to play series in the game. So I don't know. I said it's not for us. I think it's more for the fans. I think it's more interesting and exciting for the fans to see us play one-on-one for the players. One-on-one is not that big of a deal, nor do they take it as serious. It's also a free way to get exposed, too. Like, if you don't win, you don't play good, you get hurt. There's a lot of negative things that could happen. That's another reason why I don't see you guys taking it seriously. They don't want to get exposed. They don't want to... Pipe dream. I know, I love this time of year, though, because we're always trying to figure out how do we make the All-Star weekend better? I won't forget it. Well, first of all, don't put it in Indiana. I almost made it through a show, Kenny. We almost did it without insulting an entire city. Jaylen's going to Indy this week. Yeah, he's going for us. I don't get knocked out enough. I got to clean my garage. He might get jumped out there. Clean my garage. Okay, so over the weekend, we had the Bruce Brown sound bite about talking about playing for Tibs and the Knicks. He doesn't play for Una. And Dejante Murray talking about playing for the Spurs. I don't want to define tampering, but maybe this could be called tampering adjacent. What are we doing with these little moments? Nothing, I want more of them. Because it shows us what a real priority is live. Bruce Brown wants to play for the Knicks. Dejante Murray wants to play for Pop again. Like, being transparent can go a very long way. So we won't get situations where a player's traded to a team and he doesn't want to play there. So just be vocal, be honest, and maybe we can get you to the place you want to be at. Right, we'll have our dream job. I guess, man. Put it out there. It's not like you're not employed by a certain... If this works and he goes to the Knicks, I'm going to lose. And pitch yourself to another competing company. I kind of love... Look, the Bucks brought in their next wife while the first wife is still sitting there. Like, it's the whole thing. It's dirty and it's weird and I love it. Kenny, love having you on. Can't wait till we have you on again. Thank you so much. Oh, I miss these. Fitter break and we got some good ones today. We will start with... Oh, no, he didn't. He looks weird. What is that? An astronaut. These guys are getting outrageous with these outfits. It looks like he's trying to lose weight real quick in a sweat box. Is this in Miami too? Oh, there's four of them. I like this fit. That isn't bad. That's not what I was expecting. I was expecting him to be wearing what Tyler Hero had on. Can we pan left? That might be the one. Couple of little, little middle class creeps. That Debo. Oh, that's awesome. Michelle knows Debo, but not what no cap means. I knew it, no cap, man. I didn't know it's standing on your business. Inside joke, that's DeMar's nickname, Debo. It's a great shirt. That's a good outfit. All right, SG. Okay. This kid just gets it. He's a model. Yeah, he gets it. Sorry, he's just a model. I think he has a personal photographer. There's no, there's no way he's looking. And where is he? There's no way this is the team photo. I thought we were going to get it. You thought you were going to get the leather of the newest Vitton pants? It does it for us. It does it, yeah, we can do those next week. See you tomorrow. That was a break, by the way.


Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart Van Der Zee and today I am joined by Emra Sapahi from Bosphorus Symbols Emra Welcome to the show. Hey, how are you? I'm good man. Thanks so much. We've we've it's just kind of funny. We've had some back and forths. I looked at our email Originally and the last email before we reset this up was hey Emra. I need to reschedule I have surgery on my ankle tomorrow So I had a lot of people who listen know that I tore my Achilles tendon We were supposed to have the interview the day that I had surgery. So I appreciate your Your patience but you're very much welcome. Yeah, we are here though. So we're here today It's it's 8 a.m. Where I live and it's 4 p.m. In Turkey. So we're we're pretty far apart, but Yeah, so on that note I would love to hear the origins of Bosphorus Symbols and let me say this now so I don't forget I want to thank Raphael Zimmerman and Alejandro Perez for Suggesting this topic and I'm pretty sure a couple other people did too a way back that I hadn't written down yet So thank you to those guys Okay, Emra, why don't you start and tell us the origins of Bosphorus Symbols? Okay, the origin of Bosphorus Symbols is an organic Connection directly with the Symbol history started in Turkey back in 1800s As you already know might know that The symbols were invented in this land because Otto and Empire used the music in army for the first time in the history and that was a mobile Orchestra with percussion instruments and there were symbols in it so because of this demand people were trying to make the best symbols or best sound and then Someone came up with a new alloy of bronze and Actually, he accidentally invented it while he was trying to Make gold Yeah You know that story. I've heard a bit. I mean, I guess I'm it kind of goes to the the other big company Yeah, that's a part of their story and yeah, so yeah They were trying to find the formula of gold because they were not aware that that was an element so they had this New bronze alloy and they found out that it has a very nice vibration to sound and Then they started to make symbols out of and those symbols became very successful and they were we The family whole family adopted by the Sultan in Istanbul to produce the best symbols for his army So they moved to Istanbul to the palace and then they started their independent company in 1800s and they did it for over a century in Istanbul and then Ottoman Empire was ended and So the business was almost done Luckily this Symbols became a part of symphonic orchestras in European music so there was the feel some still some little demand and The original family moved from Istanbul to United States But they left some people behind here and those people who kept the original factory open until 1979 Yeah, and in the in 1979 They closed the original factory in Istanbul and they fired the workers and Those workers got reunited and started Istanbul symbols company in 1980 My bosses which are three equal partners was three little kids in the neighborhood like ten eleven years old and It's kind of a tradition that Getting kids into a summer job While the schools were closed So so they are One of them was started to work for this new symbol company and He brought two other friends and they are first duty in the workshop to clean around and Carry the stuff between some little cements that kind of stuff But yeah, also they started to be trained as a symbol and they started to be Making Learn how to make symbols from them and that's Take 16 years they work for the company for sixteen years straight. They became master symbol Smith and original symbol Smith who was coming from the old Factory was retired or passed away and Then this new symbol company example started to become famous and then They had new workers more people inside and These three guys who were the first Hired papils of the original masters Decided to move on to their own company in 1996 So the idea was Keeping the tradition alive because Every symbol company to the same path before was for symbols when they had More demand than their capacity They start to use shortcuts to make more symbols with less labor It's machinery of different things So but the product was not the same product anymore so My bosses pre-partners of boss were symbols was Aware of that and they were warning their bosses You're not making the same symbol say But and nobody listened to them. They were just workers So that's the how the idea started phosphorus Let's do a company with the tradition with the way that our masters told us so they They were just three young guys Without any money almost So they found the music shop downtown in Istanbul Who wanted to invest in a new symbol company? So they became partners with that music shop and That guy invested money to buy the necessary Hardware and tools and everything and In 1996 Somewhere around February they produced the first symbol here. Wow and You know what? The guy who invested into this company He was not even believing these guys is that until I see you have the first symbol in your hand with a good sound I just try To take an adventure because the money that he invested was not a serious money for himself So now that's nice for him. He just wanted to take the risk He wouldn't lose anything that what he said But when the first symbol came out from master symbols when the shop owner came to the workshop and Tried it. He cried. Oh Wow. Yeah, he cried. He said, oh my god This is the symbol that my father used to buy for him that all hungry hmm He cried because he he was not able to find that symbol anymore That's pretty awesome so They started to produce symbols that shop owner found a guy in the United States who wanted to Distribute the symbols in the United States and then there was a guy for artist relations And who brought Jeff Hamilton to boss for symbols because Jeff was very angry with his sponsor back in that time endorsing single company because he finally found out these symbols was not really Yeah, that's this that's the story that I listened from Jeff Hamilton himself Hmm face-to-face So he his previous company he found out they weren't actually fully handmade is what you're saying and then yeah He didn't like that.  Hey Jeff. Let's try these These are the old kind symbols that you used to play and he tried and He liked that and then he came to the factory in Istanbul several times Developed a signature line together nice, so That's how it happened. So when Jeff Hamilton sign up for boss rest, it was a huge marketing and then other guys followed him and Boss rest became the Probably the third or fourth important symbol brand In the market back in that it's hard to you really have to have a big player You know what? I mean you have to and you guys have multiple but like until you get You know you need you need drummers out there using your stuff and Jeff Hamilton. Obviously. He's very in a good way. He's very particular and picky about what he uses and When people see that and it's just you know, then he's using your stuff and people hear about it and otherwise It's probably symbols aren't Cheap so symbols are pretty expensive. So you kind of want to see a Famous drummer using it and then you can go. Oh, okay. That's I'll buy that now, you know Yeah, that's that's that's the way it happens It's it's a pity that these days now we see those big names drummers these days today They are not after the symbol quality or sound anymore They're more like businessmen making business So that's the sad part It was not like that back in I know that but today is too too much different Yeah, how long have you worked with with the company because you are the international sales director How long have you been with boss? This is my 12th year. Wow. Okay. So I'm almost half of the history Yeah That's awesome. It's not, you know in the big picture of some companies being you know, 400 years old or even 1979 1980 Yeah, the big picture is still pretty young. Yeah, I know I know the thing is There was just one single company After the big guys moved away from here There were just one company and the boss first second one so and Actually boss first is the last company who has the organic Connection with the history The yeah, the company is coming after boss first do not have this organic connection with history of symbol Yeah, there's and I have an episode about With Istanbul Agap about their connection and obviously it goes the connection to the original big the big z company is very It's neat that it stems off of that and then that you know it's it's It happens in business a lot, but when that company left and came to America I mean a lot of people had to lose their jobs, right? I mean it had to have been kind of a well What do we do now and then? That's just it's it's it's an interesting it's interesting how that worked and then these other little companies Started like you guys. Yeah The idea having the company factory in Istanbul Was kind of protecting the history and I even today I really How did they decided to shut it down? But that's a good good thing for myself. So we have boss first now Good it all worked out. I mean Okay, so then you know with the company history there. So obviously Jeff Hamilton I You guys kind of seem like one of those companies where it's not like Every year you're coming out with a bunch of new crazy different, you know stacks and things like that It seems like you have your formula and you stick with it and you're very historically, you know Accurate were there any big let you know milestone moments through the 2000s, you know and the as the company grew Okay The basic The most important thing what boss first did and symbol industry is Actually, you know before boss first there were traditional Turkish style symbols and then the other generic symbols and They were defining Dark and dry symbol as the heavy and thick symbols But when boss first came out What first started to make Really really amazing craftmanship on the symbols with processing extremely thin and Small-bound symbols Which we call today master master vintage series There that was a really big invention for a symbol Market because that was the first time when Extremely thin dark and dry symbols came out so that was the beginning with boss first and Then all other symbol companies followed it to start to make dark dry thin symbols and Boss first is Probably the only company in the world Who can make that thin that flexible and Having this earthy thong in it since it's handmade because if you if you don't make this symbol 100% with him It will not succeed through the mechanic process This death there Can can we talk a little bit about the hand-making process because I think A lot of companies are saying Which I'm sure they are I'm never You know judging one company one way or another but so to be a handmade symbol you guys sound like you are very very true Like these are 100% made by hand so Can you maybe tell us that process of how a symbol is is made when it's really really handmade in Turkey, okay? First of all we have this The to make the bronze we have this copper and 10 the copper must be 99.99% pure and You have to melt it down with the fire of coal With the help of air fans to make it burn faster and get higher temperature today most of the Companies who make their own casting? They use this electric and gas combination Casting systems, which we don't have we have if you check the videos of buffers I must we still have this falling on the ground put the fire in it with coal and Then when it is lit up, we put the mold inside the hole to melt the copper and add the tin in it so Then the bronze When it becomes a bronze boy it's almost thousand and eight hundred Celsius degrees she is and Celsius degrees and Even we are having hard time Find a Mold to melt that copper in that temperature because the company is for producing this melting molds they say these days nobody goes over that temperatures even for iron so that's what they say and We still having this old-fashioned in melting which is putting the carbon in the bronze during the fire process and then we cast the Liquid bronze into the pens Just we can you know, we just hang we have a tool hanging the mold and Then we just pour the liquid metal into these pens one by one without measuring the weight Just by eyesight, you know one must be an expert. You must be a really monster Otherwise, it will be like two heavy pieces impossible to make thin symbols or You just very hard is Whatever you see on the factory because it's 100% real and we do that every week so it must it's a real big experience to see it on your All nice if you come here some day or somebody To come here because we accept visitors to show the casting because people don't know really don't know They don't know what how it does it feel to pour down 1,800 Celsius degrees hot metal Yeah Sounds pretty intense Yeah, and then we have this another four days we light up with wood and And burning woods is not something cheap these days because you know, you have to get licensed wood The government is involved to the process Every any wood piece coming to your factory is registered because how yeah, of course because you can otherwise you just You know the the forest cutters illegal forest cutters sure you can make money over you which is not good So we are buying licensed registered wood cutters And the all the wood that we buy is coming from government at pro And all the documents are legal. That's that's a hard process also. I've never thought about that, but it makes sense people The alternative is people just like cutting down forests and you know Yeah, so so we've We need special kind of trees to burn because it has to be high temperature and taking more time to burn out So so we were we light up this furnace. He did this cast of this to Scroll them through the pressing cylinders again and again and again after every time it goes back into four days Gets hot and soft again, then take it out and roll it again. Just like making pizza.  We have to keep them and roll them through the press cylinders and Even the smallest splash symbol should be passing through this Rolling cylinders at least six or seven times Think about the big rise for tracks for 26 inches. Sure. Yeah so and Then when the plate is big and thin enough No, we We press the bell in the middle one more time with the heating and then It's ready to be hammered. So we just cut it into a perfect circle and Then start to hammer it to shape it like a symbol and then from that point a Symbol is hammered at least six to ten hours Wow So and then getting laid it again hammered, you know some of our symbols has no lighting on them and That that means the symbol the plate itself must be that light from the casting So that's yeah, that's crazy because you know Have you ever? Checked our master vintage rights. That's 22 inch right with less than three kilograms Yeah, two and a half two and a two point seventy five kilograms and has no lighting on it and getting that Roll through pressing cylinders hot Getting the bell pressed on it heading it out in circle and then hammering it for six ten hours Without breaking. That's a tough work Yeah, I I just can't believe that They don't That they're just kind of doing it by eye and you're not really measuring it or you're not saying alright like a Like an ingot or whatever.  Yeah, that's just so Well that that I guess speaks to how each symbol Slightly is is one of a kind I would imagine. Yeah, actually that's kind of our feels The boss for us is against time dark station Because what we Tell here to our workers every day and to lose so standardization is against the Creative rule of art So you can't have Mona Lisa, but printed copies of Mona Lisa. It's not that valuable No, so now that's a good point. So every single master symbol kind of It's not copy Now and what's interesting and So America or Canada, there's just very stringent Like safety guidelines and of course, I don't I'm not saying that you guys aren't safe because you sound like you're complete masters, but The the way that you can make the symbols and even when I watch the video and there's just like bubbling like molten metal And it's just very like natural and raw Here in America there seems to be such More like the government has these these like safety, you know Regulations and all this where you couldn't maybe do the the the classic style of Symbol making that you guys have mastered. You know what I'm saying like Yeah I need to I think mention about something first of all In Turkey the legal working age is 16 Yeah, so after 16 years old you can start to work legally in any job you like to work So most of the boss first workers started about that age 1670s and we don't let anybody to go near the hot metal or something before They he fully understands what's going on in there and it takes like three four years. So And It really takes a very long time to train as symbols Yeah, it's a really long process. I That's something I tell to most of my friends that it's probably much easier to be a doctor Yeah, probably it's probably safer. I mean again, not that you're not safe, but but there's less danger Actually, right here in here you you feel that it's not that dangerous because everybody expert on what they're doing and this is a 25th year of boss first and I'm glad to tell that we never had even one single Serious injurious during doing this job in here. Nobody injured. Yeah boss first Five years. Yeah, some more things. Yeah, you can just cut your finger and put a tape on it That's everything that happens at home So that kind of things but never nobody gets seriously injured in Boss for us since coming in five years, we never get an impulse in the factory not even once Wow, you guys having that mastery of Pouring these and doing this and it's more it's it's almost like It's obviously smaller like most companies than the the big the big, you know, two or three or whatever So you guys can be more, you know attentive and have these masters How many employees does boss for us have we are all Like 23 24 people here Wow, that's pretty small. I mean, that's great. I just love it because you can yeah, you know when you get a symbol It's it's special. Yeah, and we make only 20 to 30 symbols a day Hmm, that's that's that's that's what we do and that is about little more than 10,000 symbols a year Yeah, which is still pretty That's still in my opinion a lot of symbols. I mean obviously to the biggest company produces two and a half million My god, I didn't know that Yeah, so we're kind of still boutique small company The name of boss first is much bigger than it is Physically exists and that's because of this craftsmanship and the very detailed Process that we follow without any Excuses since 25 years Yeah, which that's great that that and I've found that I have found that on episodes with Vic Firth Pearl Yamaha these companies where they a lot of people will say Yeah, people think we're a massive huge company But there's actually we're not that big where and I'm kind of thinking I agree with them But I'm also like, okay pearl you are big like Smaller companies, but I mean, I think it's great that your name has spread and that that obviously goes to You know speak to the the quality and all that that stuff are you guys And I've played some I believe I played I've played them at a drum show and then I believe I tried some out at there's Badges drum shop here in Cincinnati And I believe yeah last time I was there. I was hitting a boss for us ride and it sounded amazing Are you guys typically is There any specific kind of music that you guys cater to more like jazz or rock? What or is it just all kinds of music? We are a symbol company be pretty simple. It doesn't matter which Genre is going to be played for symbol is a symbol. So That's something became quite The basic understanding in the recent years, but it's not true. You don't have a Symbol company for jazz music. You don't have a Symbol company for blues music. That's that's not true. That's that's that's a wrong opinion in my understanding so boss first is More preferred by the jazz That's a reality because they are playing in more acoustic situations and with less amps less mics and Probably in smaller venues and Yeah And you hear the symbol much more than other music types So the sound of symbol is much more important than other genres so So but according to my understanding Any drummer who really listens to the tone of the symbol can play boss first Yeah, well well put. I mean, that's that's a good if you are I mean nowadays I would I would assume if you're a you know a symbol company making we just make You know jazz symbols you can't survive doing that because that's there's not enough You know, you know, I mean it you got to be You have to make them for everyone have you guys found that I feel like in the recent years There's been more more symbols coming up in different From different countries like I know here in America.  There's there's other symbol makers Coming up around the world I'm sure that's you know It's good for the love of symbols to have more people involved and that it's carrying on but obviously that's tricky for business when when there's there's more People making symbols. There's less There's more competition. Have you noticed that recently? Yeah, that's what we call it they're pumping up right mushrooms everything But it's not a good something bad for us because we are already a boutique company. Yeah really small amount of Capacity manufacturing so we already sell every single symbol we make so that's the That's the problem of big boys not us Sure Yeah, you guys are established and and I great answer because I was hoping it was like, you know It's there's plenty of room out there and I think like I said that there's those guys are great Make amazing symbols you make amazing symbols.  It's cool to have non major Symbol brands like you have boutique brands. It's becoming more cool. Okay. Let me Give you a underlying some insider view Well, the big guys shut down the factory in 1979 Why another symbol company established in Istanbul because music industry drummers some of them immediately realized what they have lost the this Handmade symbol business is the soul of the drummers because a otherwise You cannot sound different Because it's like the same difference between electronic keyboards and acoustic pianos So this is like yeah, we are When you have this handmade single You're the only guy who have this sound flat on your drum and Exactly, so some dermers. I'm not sure how many how many of them maybe 25 to 30% of total dermers in the world has really serious Intention about this matter they don't want to lose their sound they want to be unique They want to be The one and only with that instrument because you cannot tune the symbols sure You cannot amp the symbol the guitar player can't put a different M and how different you cannot do that So I'm very happy that the drummers More and more drummers are being aware of that. So the question is Why these We'll take simple companies coming up because there's a demand so the question is why other the big sample companies cannot Feed this demand and then other single companies can survive. So that's the big question mark for themselves They have to ask themselves Yeah, I really do enjoy the symbols of of the big companies of the small ones I think they're all great, but but I do think there's there's something about supporting something smaller But on that note, I have a question about so I've never been to Turkey. I would love to go but Is there obviously there's others other symbol you guys are your own, you know, you're doing something very unique But there's other symbol makers in Turkey Is there like a competition between you and like the the Istanbul factory who again has been on the show and our friends? is there kind of a Competition between the Turkish brands that you can feel going on It's really hard to tell because you know, yeah, of course in the business wise we are competing to try Yeah, my bosses Would have been working with them for 16 years. Oh It's they have this friendly relationship each other and when we meet during the straight shows of any day They talk to each other friendly so so since as I can tell that the whole symbol business in Turkey is Less than 10% of the global market Mm-hmm. So competing each other is not Really doesn't make sense So there's a huge 90 plus percent market out there so So mostly every symbol maker in Turkey is after that portion not from each other's portion Sure Yeah, no, that's a great answer Okay, so Obviously, it's COVID right now. It's February 8th 2021 when we're recording this COVID has been tough for everyone. So there's no shows and all this stuff But is there anything new and cool that you guys are working on in the future? Or is it kind of just sticking with the traditional, you know Everything that's been been great or you know, what what's going on in the future with boss for us? Okay, this is our 25th anniversary. So we have been Working on a new symbol line like an anniversary of 25th because we have launched 20th anniversary of 40 years ago and now It would be a good idea to make a 25th anniversary And we did it. Yeah, it's it's almost ready But we postponed the launch of the line To some date that we don't know yet, probably it will be launched this year Since the NEM has canceled and nobody knows if the Germany show is going to be happening happening or not, so we will We are trying to launch that new line for an anniversary of 25th year in this year, so we don't want to leave it for next year, but Who knows, you know Yeah, that's great. Um, you know, I was curious from googling it. Bosphorus is a town or like what is Bosphorus? Okay, Bosphorus is a state Uh, it's between Black Sea to Marmara Sea, which is an inlet sea of Turkey So the Marmara Sea is just Like a big lake which is connected to the Black Sea In the north and connected to the agency on the west So there are two states one of them is Bosphorus. The other one is Gallipoli Yeah, so Bosphorus is the straight just Goes like a river in the middle of Istanbul and divides Istanbul into two parts With european side and asian side So we have this because the if you check the turkey map The 75 percent of the country is a part of asian continent and then 25 percent of the country is part of european continent And Bosphorus is just in the middle interesting I would love to go uh and visit my brother's friend growing up His family would go there and post pictures of it and it just looks beautiful. I mean, it seems like such a cool place to visit It is uh There's something that I tell to People who likes to visit Istanbul Istanbul has never Experienced a war since 1453 So the history is all there So we have a mosque By the Bosphorus which we call new mosque and it was made in 1600s Wow, so so You know the europe continent and most of the places on earth was demolished by the first world war and second world war And Istanbul didn't experience that So that's all history since the Byzantine empire age So you can see the walls the roman empire And then the automobiles all everything. So it's just like a magic Yeah, man, that's I've never thought about that you you you kind of take for granted that like Everywhere is like that but there's um where they're you know at a certain point things got destroyed and rebuilt But um, what a cool way to look at it. Um You know someday hopefully I'll I'll be around there and uh Check out the factory now that seems unlikely with the way the world is You know with whatever you like to be like this Yeah, I wish I wish sooner than later. Um Okay, I'm right. Why don't we tell people where they can uh, well first Is there any other cool, uh, any other thing that I you think I missed that we should kind of uh, you know Talk about about Bosphorus. Um, okay, uh, first of all it's The long-time challenge for me that First of all people should understand that Handmade symbol 100 percent handmade symbol is not the same thing with hand hammered symbol So hand hammered symbol means the symbol is made and finished by hand Um 100 handmade symbol. I think the boss versus the only company who uses that Because this is the truth Uh, so they must be understanding the difference because people say, uh You're not cheap. You're not cheap, but we are not expensive too. Most of Bosphorus symbols models are Hats out in the market is lower cost than machine made symbols. That's not fair Of course, we accept that this is the market situation So, uh, I really wanted to underline that one more time and The second thing is Bosphorus is working very hard to have a consistent quality with Symbols, but when it's handmade it's your personal choice. So You can have Video demonstrations Sound demonstrations or you can play yourself go to the store and play yourself but You must be selected your boss or symbol in person um That that's the way it has to be So yeah, that's that's a good point as i'm uh I was just looking up some of the prices and it brought up amazon and right as you said that i'm like Yeah, you can't buy a handmade symbol on amazon or um You know a website because you have to hear it which um You know, so maybe if if you don't have a shop in your city Or town or whatever that that carries them you might have to you know drive a little bit or um visit one of the drum shows Yeah, there are some shops who are making video demonstrations for each symbol they have in stock So, you know, yeah, you're getting before you buy Or or some some of them make sound demonstrations or some of them are video demonstrations That really works well too uh, we never get a complaint about but Uh, sure you need to select it And anytime but you you need to hear it before you buy Yeah, and they're really not that Expensive.  I mean they are just so cool looking. Um, and I like your logo a lot too So All right, well then everyone needs to turn this off and go out and try some boss for us symbols right now and uh Because they're one of a kind man. That's that's so cool. Well. Um, all right, so people can go to boss for us symbols dot com b o s p h o r u s symbols dot com Um, and again, I want to thank rafael zimmerman and alejandro perez for suggesting this and i'm pretty sure I'm forgetting a couple other people who suggested this A while back. So if you did then thank you um to you too, but um Um Cool. Well, um emra man. I appreciate you taking the time and being so patient and kind of rescheduling with me a few times Uh to do this because that's a pleasure for me You know, I I go into all these sort of knowing but I really didn't know Um too much about boss for us really and I'm I'm so happy to learn more about it And I really enjoyed hearing the difference between hand hammered and handmade because you you don't You know, you don't think about that too much Um, and that that's really neat to put it in perspective like that. Thank you. Thank you I'm very happy to have this chance To get out some words for boss for us So thank you for inviting me to do this Oh, my pleasure. You did a great job. So all right emra, thanks for being here. You're welcome. Bye. Bye If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning