All right, look, the data is clear. Sometimes the value in doing hard things is that they're hard. In other words, making things easier doesn't always make them better. It's true. The data shows us quite clearly struggle and challenge or would give us meaning. So sometimes when you're doing something hard and you make it easier, you're actually making it worse. So are you doing avoid the struggle, telling people they should sign up for these man camps? No, man camps. No, although I think that the guys that come out of that who are like, oh, that was valuable. That's why it was valuable. It was just they haven't done something hard. Yeah, it's been a long time since it's done. You guys, they're popping up left and right right now. Yeah, it's because it's the same reason why, you know, obstacle course racing became so popular. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Listen, it's also why video games are so popular. I saw that. Oh, I shared that with you. You're the one that share with me. Yeah, that's right. It's because, you know, we're wired this way. The data on this is so Arthur Brooks talks about this all the time. In order to find meaning and purpose in your life, there's a formula. And part of that formula is you have to do things that are challenging. You have to overcome challenges and find struggle.   So you have all these young men, especially young men, you brought up the man camps where they don't realize that they have this yearning for something.  And they get a little bit of that, right? That little bit of that satisfaction. Like, oh, I just, I just overcame that level. I just beat that, that boss or whatever. But no, we're wired this way. You got to seek out challenge if you want life to be meaningful. In other words, it has to be hard. You can't have an easy life, which is weird. I think that's a good measure, too, for the young men and older men, I guess, that are still in the video games. I remember when we did that clip last year. When you're playing a video game, what you're doing is you're satisfying this need, except you're actually not doing anything. Yeah, you're you're simulating leads nowhere.  In real life. One of the things that I think has made me the most success in my life was cutting off that. Yep.  And he kept looking at me like, when do you drop this? And in my head, I'm like, I have my house. I make six figures and I play video games. Like, I got it all figured out.  And it took me a long time for that to really make that connection. And it's silly because when I think about the math on the amount of hours per week that I was putting into playing conquering levels and beating people online, if I just replace that with books, just that's it. Just trade the hour of video games a night for an hour of reading something that is going to teach me a skill or make me better at my craft.  And that's all I needed for that switch to go off for me. Then I went, oh, OK, light bulb moments. And boy, did that ruffle some feathers. Heaven forbid you tell the man. And I get it because I was that guy, too. Like I said, the same thing. I will never not play video games, you know what I'm saying? So I guess if if you are making sure that you are going out and doing hard things and challenging yourself and stretching yourself and you find that you like to escape a couple of times a week into your favorite video game, I don't see a problem with that. But you also have to be self-aware enough to be honest with yourself and say, am I is it is the reason why I love this so much? And I play it every day or every night. Is it because it's the only thing in my life that is giving me purpose or that challenge and is this a healthy behavior? And if so, it needs to be addressed. Otherwise, I'm it's I'm going down a path that leads to probably a very unhappy life. I remember talking to people who had which we went to the first obstacle course race. We went to was how many years ago was that? Was a Spartan. Yeah, we're out of gas. Yeah. No, that one maybe. Is it the first one? You're the only guy I know who's actually ran out of gas twice in their car. I didn't know that happened anymore with digital gauges. Yeah, brand new car. Wishing that limit, dog. Yeah, I'm looking for challenge. Grown men looking for challenge. What happened, you guys? We ran out of gas. We got 13 miles to the gallon or we got 13 miles left on our tank and we got 16 miles. Can we do it? Can we do it? It's happened so I could do this.  And then we get there, we talk to these people and it's like, what do you do? Like, oh, I computer programmer. Yeah. I'm like, why did you do this? Why desk jobs? So like, it makes me feel alive. I feel so good. And remember, Spartan races are like jumping and freezing cold water, dragging themselves through mud, running through wires of electricity and climbing mountains and doing crazy stuff. Many of them getting injured. I mean, it's hard stuff. And at the end of it, they're like, I feel alive. It's because we need to have strong, so now we have to like create, and here's what's weird. This is the strange part. If we don't allow ourselves to do hard things, we'll turn easy things into hard things.  It's like, we need to have this so much that we'll invent it and create it in ways that are unhealthy. So do you think that... So frustrating, the true.   I think it's temporary. I think it's temporary, but it's much more of an outlet than video games. Much healthier, that's what you're saying.  It's physical exertion. You're out in the elements. There's also a social component. I know video games has that as well, but it's like a real social component where you're with other people. But is it the same thing as like, learning a new skill, challenging yourself out in the real world, raising kids, that kind of stuff. Probably not, probably not. But I would definitely put it as a better tool. Because I know people that have gone down that direction too, that are like the desk job people, they found Spartan and it's like, they are collecting those things crazy, like they're entire. They got the trophies and everything. I mean, some people, that's a huge deal. Like the trophies is a big incentive for them. One of my favorite, I've brought this up so many times on the show, so people are probably sick of me, but my favorite like segments or clips of any movie was in the original Matrix. By the way, it's a very, there's a lot of wisdom, philosophical wisdom in the Matrix. If you really watch it and listen, there's a lot of spiritual wisdom in it. And that's probably why it was such a popular movie, but there's a scene where they've captured Morpheus and they're trying to give them the codes to whatever the humans are hiding. And Agent Smith says to him like, the first Matrix that we built was a perfect utopia for humans. And he goes, but your feeble minds couldn't process it. And we lost crops of humans. So we had to create this version of humanity in the late 90s, because we need to have struggle. We can't put us in this like perfect utopia where we get everything because we find ourselves miserable and unhappy. And this is a, I mean, look, this is one of the reasons why pornography is even an issue.   Whereas now you go on the internet and boom, you get that sexual release, but then it causes problems because it's no challenge in it, it's just right there. It's just the finish line. Yeah, and we have a real hard time accepting this, right? Or owning it, you know? Like, I was so blown away. I saw that our friend, Tom Billu, interviewed Jordan Peterson and he had texted me beforehand like, hey man, I just wanted to let you know I got Peterson. I saw your guys' interview with him and got some really good stuff to ask him afterwards and how was it? And we were talking before it happened. I just saw that it went live. And so I went over to his page just to see like what people were saying.  When he's talking about the problems with masculinity and our society and the things, and it's like the amount of people that get so upset and angry about him communicating that is mind-blowing to me. Like either one, you easily can just be like, oh, that's not me. Like I don't struggle with that. It's triggering. Very. And it's obvious by the comments. Like you just like. Well, we've been conditioned to think that if anybody, even if it's just one point of reference of like something he said that you don't agree with, then you have to dismiss and discard and turn them into an enemy and Satan. And that's like in politics and it's reinforced in the way that we interact because of social media. And so it's like, you can't ever say one thing that's in opposition to your philosophy or the way that you perceive the world. And it's a really dangerous place to be mentally. Did you see the thread that Sal and I got into on our forum? No. Oh, you didn't see that? Yeah. So I roped him in. He said, why'd you rope me into that? I said, you know, cause we get this every once in a while, even in our own private forum. You know, we had Dave Asprey on the show and heaven forbid. Oh, that thread. Yeah, heaven forbid. We have Dave Asprey on the show. Why'd you give him a platform? Huh? Yeah. Turn it off, just don't listen. Right. What do you mean why'd I give him a platform?  And this idea that you could even build a business like this where we have, what do we interview? 400 people by now, Doug? Close to that? At least 200 and something to 400? I would think it's up there. Right, 400 people? Could you imagine trying to find 400 people to come on the show that you agree with everything they say?  I don't agree with you, everything you guys said. I know. And imagine how unhealthy that is for you to only talk to people that agree with you. Like, talk about a recipe for not having any personal growth in your life to not challenge your own belief. To me, that's like, that's something that I have learned to hack into growth is to when I don't like somebody or when I disagree with somebody instead of de-platforming or not giving them a platform, it's like, you know what? I'm gonna embrace this. I don't think I like this guy. I don't think I agree with him. Let's see what happens. Let's see if after that conversation, my bias is confirmed, or let's see if my mind is blown and I'm wrong. And guess what?  I've been wrong. And so this idea of- But what's weird is that it's not weird. I think it's human nature. You don't wanna be wrong so badly that being wrong threatens your very identity. So you don't even wanna be in a situation where you could potentially be wrong. It's like self-protection. You have to embrace. It's weak. You have to embrace. You know why I like being wrong? Why I like being surprised that way? Because now I've learned something. Now I can be, I believe this, I remember one of the first times this happened on our podcast, in the very early days, I made some comment about childbirth and I said something along the lines of like, thank God for Western medicine, modern medicine, because childbirth used to kill so many people, so many women, blah, blah, blah. And a midwife in our forum commented and said, that's not true. She's like, actually natural childbirth is very safe, this and that.  And I loved it. I loved the fact that I could learn something new but we need to embrace it. One of the things I like about exercise and strength training in particular, just because it's the way it's oriented, is that if you do it long enough, you have to learn how to like that because you're gonna do new exercises, you're gonna suck at the end. It's gonna teach you whether you like it or not. You won't be able to stick with it. That's it. You're not gonna be able to stick with it.  Every time you try a new exercise, every time you work out with a new person, every time you hit a new plateau, what are you gonna suck? And so it's like this new challenge, this new hurdle. But I mean, the data on this is super clear but at the same time, like if you were to tell me, hey Sal, I could either give you $10 million right now or you could struggle and grind for 10 years to make $10 million, what would you choose? I'd be lying if I didn't say, I'll take the $10 million right now. But the truth is which one would be more valuable? Which one would develop me into a much better person? There's no comparison at all. And again, the data on this is super clear. I actually have had this conversation with my daughter and I said, we were talking about like fame and popularity and money and that kind of stuff. And I said, honey, I said, look at the suicide rate with celebrities. I said, why are they committing suicide? They got so much money, they have so much power, they have so much fame, all these people say they love them and this adoration and they're killing themselves. Why? That's not God. That is not what you're supposed to worship. That's not everything. That's actually a path towards destruction if you start to worship that stuff and hard and struggle is good or bad. It's baked into the formula of happiness, unfortunately or fortunately. Also, two days left for our huge fitness sale this month. MAPS performance is half off and our extreme fitness bundle of workout programs is also half off. Again, only 48 hours left for this promotion. If you're interested, just click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, back to the show. Also, we have a brand new MAPS program, MAPS Performance Advanced. This is a hardcore, athletically-minded workout program for strength, speed, power, agility. There's also segments in there for specific types of athletes. For example, there's a segment for grapplers which is pretty cool. Anyway, if you sign up during this launch period, it's on sale plus you get two free eBooks. So check this out. If you go to mapsp2.com, use the code PALaunch.  You'll get a free eBook, Grip Strength Reference Guide. You'll get Eat For Performance Guide thrown in for free. And again, don't forget, this program is customizable. This is our most advanced athletic training program ever. And ever. So go check this out. Were you in the studio this morning when I was talking to the guys about writing a note to my 20-year-old self? No. Oh, so I do this every once in a while. And I think this is a good exercise. I also hope one day I've collected all these notes and I have them for when my son approaches this. But sometimes I'll do this when I have a thought, like thinking back, like, oh, I wish I would've known this. So you literally write yourself a note? Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a 9.40 or 10 o'clock at night. I'm just weird. To 20-year-old Adam? Yeah, yeah. And it's, and again, it's like, Is this stuff like, hey dude, you're gonna get way more awesome? No, it's like that. I know this, trust me.  You know, I don't remember. However handsome you think you are. I don't remember. Normally it's because Katrina and I are in a conversation. That's a very interesting practice. Yeah, it's self-reflective. I like it. Well, and it helps me reflect myself. And then also I think it will serve me as in fatherhood, right? Like when the time comes to like communicate. So this was the tip, and I'm setting you guys up to see if there's something on top of mind for you or that you've thought about recently. So you can think about it when I'm telling you. But it was a financial tip I would give my 20-year-old self. I said, it said, build as much passive income to support all the materialistic things that you want. Resist the temptation now. So that was the advice. And I think back to like something along the lines of like, you know, I probably would have arrived where I'm at financially a lot sooner had I resisted those temptations when I was 20 years old.  So yeah, I agree. I think, and I'm not saying that I would have not done any of them or I would take back all of it. I just think that if I had somebody that was mentoring me financially, I probably would have made some moves differently and things would have been even better financially sooner than what it is now. And the stress of building enough passive income to support these materialistic things that we like, not to mention what I've learned in my 40-plus years now is when I've learned to delay gratification on materialistic things, many times I don't even want it. Like I've told you about that practice before where I have a rule or if I have this impulse like, oh, I want to buy this. I don't tell myself, no, I go tomorrow morning if I still want to. Did you say you put it in your cart? Yeah. And then you wait. Yeah, so I'll put it in the cart, I'll go through the whole process. Yeah, next day. And then I won't check it out. You know what, by the way, what you're saying is so true.  One button to buy. One click, yeah. That simple like, instead of having to click twice. It's the groundbreaking feature. Yeah, just a little bit of like let's get these people right when the impulse hits. And it highlights the point, right? Is that we all are these emotional creatures and we react on things like this so often. So that's how I determine whether it's something I really, really want and I maybe deserve or why not, indulge. I have worked hard to have these things. And so if I can just wait the next day or whatever. And I tell you what, nine times out of 10, I don't. Nine times out of 10, I don't buy. Like I almost always put it in the cart. I want to see what this cart looks like. What's in there? I'll tell you, there's all kinds of stuff. I'll tell you the next time I put something in the cart and I don't. I'd love to see. You don't go through and delete it. You just leave it there. No, it eventually gets deleted. You know how many times I've almost bought, almost bought one of those salt shotgun shooters that shoot a lot of flies? Yeah. I almost buy and then I'm like, what am I doing? I'm going to be shooting some of those at eight.  Buy no means, by the way, my perfect stickers. I still make, I mean, I've got a drone that I've flown like twice. You know what I'm saying? I've got some, you know, I've got some Oculus goggles that I haven't worn in a forever. So I definitely still. I just bought a track suit. Did you really? I did, bro. I bought, hey, I bought, you know why? You know that Adidas jacket I have with the Sprite, right? You're the track suit guy. Jessica made a mistake, right? She told me it looked attractive on me. Like ladies, if you tell your husband something looks attractive, I'm expected to buy five more of those things. But anyway, I went on Amazon like track suit. What's on there? Can you get you like a velvet one? And I found a couple like, you look like a Russian mobster, you know? I ordered one of them somewhere. It's coming up. I mean, back to how this started, right? Like the 20 year old South thing. Do you guys, and maybe you don't think of it in the same context of like talking to your old, younger son, maybe think of it more of stuff where you plan to tell your son, you know, or your daughter. Are there things that go through your head that, you know, maybe, and you haven't reached, I know Justin, your boys are getting older now and maybe you're having more of these types of conversations. Are there things that you're like, you know, my parents really didn't talk to me much about this. This is going to be an area where I focus on. Do you guys think about that? Or is there something like currently right now like that you're going through with that? All the time. Yeah, it's interesting. Half the time I forget I'm talking to myself, even with, especially my youngest, just because he falls into the same traps. And a lot of it is, it's self punishment. And it's very much guilt driven. And so a lot of decisions turned into, yeah, because of shame, like promote ways that they're trying to make up for that and show that they're, they want to get acceptance and they want to get back in on the good side of things, as opposed to really owning the mistake and then just moving beyond it and not holding on to that and repeating those same patterns. So that was a big issue for me. You know what, so that's a big one for me. And what helped me was to think about like when my kids do make a mistake that they can't help themselves. Like an easy example is like in my three year old, three year olds are impulsive, right? So he'll do things like, if there's a cup on the table and he's running by, he'll like knock it over, right? Just impulsively, right? He can't control himself, right? And he feels bad about it, whatever. But so what's my point with that is I want to help him correct the behavior. But I don't think he's like some terrible kid. He can't control it yet, right? So I'm like, can I flip that on myself for stuff I've done in the past? Cause there's things I've done in the past where if I think about it, it's all about shame, right? But then I was educated and the person I talked to about this stuff, she's like, you're judging yourself with what you know now. So you're looking back to when you were however old, 17, 20, you know, 30. And you're looking at it with the wisdom you have now. You were doing your best back then. That doesn't excuse it. You're still trying to improve yourself, but it takes away the shame. And if you don't take that away, man, that shame will drive you in ways that are not beneficial. Treat yourself like somebody that doesn't deserve to be treated well. There's also like a bit of wrinkle in this too. Like when you're talking about your kid, because you also don't want to potentially stifle something that could be a superpower. For example, your point you're talking about is it's interesting you brought that up. I was literally talking about you and Kyle last night to Katrina. We're talking about leadership. And I was telling her one of my favorite traits. You're talking about glutes? Yes, I see. They have that in common. They have that in common too. They have that in common too. No, I was talking about I was talking about actually the things that remind me about Kyle that are similar to Justin. And I said, you know, one of my favorite traits about Justin, and I remember this as far back as us first working together, is that I never had to, I never really had to hold him accountable to doing something or I ever had to reprimand him for making a mistake because he was so hard on himself. And you could see that. It was like, the last thing you want to do to someone like that is to like tell them how bad. Add on top of it. Yeah, add on top of it.  Why would I want to add to that? That'll only send them off the edge. So that's also kind of a superpower of yours.  So it's like, that is also probably allowed you to excel in a lot of things is that you are so hard on yourself. You hold, so it's like, how do you teach him to have forgiveness? I thought the same thing. It's a balance, yeah. I thought the same thing, but actually it's hindering. The pro growth side of him is still there. The beat yourself upside is actually slowing down the growth because you're focused on the, what I did wrong. But the growth side is still there. It's still growth minded. So it actually becomes a hindrance. That was something I had confused. It's like, okay, am I going to become less effective? So I think that's what I mean though, right? It's like, so you teach the, Like how do you do that? Forgive yourself. Cause you don't want, like I said, you don't want to stifle his ability to look inward like that, right? He's so fixated on it. You were so fixated on your mistake that you recognize it, you own it, and then you pivot and you fix it. The crippling part was that you let it faster or you continue to beat yourself.  It's like, I'm going to get better at this, but forgive yourself and move on. And so it's like learning to teach him how to do that. Well, I think a lot of things I've had to learn is that, you know, part of that is you internalize the dialogue.  Nobody knows, you know? And like, so I'm not good at communicating any of that or like getting help or like getting other people involved in a situation like that. Because now it's like, this is all my problem, you know? And so I have to like work my way out of it. It was always just me working my way out of really difficult spots when, you know, I've actually pulled people in. It makes it so much easier. And then I move forward. And then I'm not like taking forever to like, you know, just drag myself through the grind of it all. And so too, and that's why I see this when my son is in sports and he's doing something and he's so frustrated because he can't nail this to the degree where he gets like a good score for it. And he thinks he's worthless now at it, you know, completely. And he's like, I just don't want to do it, you know? And so I always had those comforts. That was a hard thing for me too. I wanted to throw the ball the hardest. I wanted to do all the things, you know, at the level of the best player. And then I had to literally like take practice every day and like work on each one of those skills. Like it never came naturally, you know? It was just, it was a constant work thing. So that's the good side. But like, I think, you know, to make it more healthy would be to verbalize it. Because also too, it gets it out, you know? Because for me, it just, it stays in. And then I'm like, I have all of this stuff that's just like, you know, you ever realized, stressing me out. This is just a big realization where you have these thoughts, if you don't verbalize them, they circle. You circle. And they don't leave. It stays in your body. Your berries. It literally is like right here in my stomach, dude.  Oh, I'm 100% same here. I mean, so now that they've connected the vagal nerve to the gut, which is your CNS for sure, which then leads to SIBO and all that stuff. So then what happens? You treat the SIBO, goes away, comes back. Why does it keep coming back? Yeah. It's damn CNS stuff. What a great commercial for seed. Oh, didn't you make it? It was an accident. It was so good. It's just such a great transition. It just happens. No, I mean, jeez, I didn't even know. I didn't expect you to go there. Well, you know what? Okay, fine. You want to go in that direction. Probiotics help. They help the gut, but they also help the central nervous system. There's data on this that shows that a, because it's a two-way street of communication, gut, brain, brain, gut, right? And the right bacteria in the gut does communicate to the brain through neurotransmitters and other mechanisms we don't fully understand to tell the brain that it's okay to relax. So they find that probiotics reduce anxiety and depression oftentimes in people. That's interesting. Which is wild. Now, if you think about it, it makes sense.  I think it's always interesting why we have these old sayings that have been around forever. Like, oh, I feel it in my gut. I always try to slip over that. I trip over that. There's three places that we feel when we talk about thinking something or knowing something. Our head, that's where our brain is. Our heart and our gut. The most serotonin receptors that we have are in the brain. Second's the gut. Third is the heart. All the serotonin receptors are in those three places. That's where they live. And for thousands of years. And we've only recently discovered all that science. This is, people have been saying this forever. It's weird. Like, even, okay, so even right now, so I'm going through this RCIA process, right? So I'm going through and reading the Bible and stuff. And in there, it talks a lot about your heart. What's on your heart? What's on your heart? How do they know? Why did they say the heart? All they knew was it's an organ. Right. Did they even know it pumped blood? Maybe, I guess, right? Why would they keep saying the heart? I love that you're, I love that your nerdy science brain is going through all that stuff because that's an area where somebody wouldn't even think, like that's such a profound thing in scripture. It's like, oh my God, like think about, think about how long ago this is written and that they're telling you to follow things. It's not even close to like, I think we take for granted some of the stuff that we believe now, but who would think that? Imagine if this was 10,000 years ago and I'm like, you know, I love you with my heart. Like, huh?  Yeah. What are you talking about? Well, just replace that with another organ. I love you with my lung. Yeah, yeah, why? Why can't we see it? My kidney urines for you, dude. Yeah, bro. And then we go in and we find all these serotonin receptors. Really weird. It is. I know, and I think that makes me think of how we think the brain is so separate from the body. It's like, man, it's all interconnected and it's way more strange. You know, it's funny. I was just reading, speaking to the brain, have you guys ever heard of blind sight? Oh, blind sight? No, I've heard of mind's eye. Sorry. Really weird. I remember I saw this documentary once and they showed blind sight on it years ago and then I was, I don't remember what I was reading. It led me to reading more about this. So blind sight happens and they've documented this. So they'll have people have their eyes totally damaged. Okay, so they can't see they're blind. Their eyes don't work. And yet they'll put things in front of people and they'll be able to determine. Describe it. They'll be able to either describe it or determine which side it's on with far greater odds than just, you know, random. You think that has to deal with something like electromagnetic waves or like some kind of like. No, so they did, they did brain imaging. They've now done brain imaging. Oh, there's stuff going on there. I was just gonna say, I have a theory on that because I think that in. Oh, sorry, sorry. I gotta reverse. It's the part of the brain that's damaged that processes sight. So their eyes work, but the part of the brain that processes sight is damaged.  So sight isn't just about like this part of the brain. There's other parts of the brain that kind of tell you what's happening. How weird. Really weird. And then that led me down this path of like how the brain compensates.  Synastasia, that's a weird one. That's weird, dude.  It's all like this crossing of different senses at the same time. You ever seen interviews with people like that? Yeah, they'll say something like, all right, when I say the number two, they're like pink and fuzzy. Yeah. You're like what? Yeah, dude. That's wild. That's so, it'll be so weird. Well, I definitely think that when you have, I mean, this is like, I remember I was talking a lot about this when Max was first born, right? And I just, when you don't have the ability to use certain senses, the other ones tend to be heightened. Because your body just adapts in that direction. And I feel like you see this like in people that are blind. Yeah, that's their own, that's the way they navigate through the world and they don't have this one. So then the other ones get hyper focused on it. So they can allocate more resources in the other departments. 100%. It's interesting. We're someone who has, you know, sight, hearing, everything all working for them, right? It's evenly distributed somewhat, right? To all of them in order to do that. But get rid of your hearing completely and all I have is my smell and my sight to rely on. I would think that those would be heightened because all that extra priority is in the... You know, there's a famous music choreographer that's deaf. She has no that. I can't remember her name. Beethoven was deaf, right? Was he? Yeah. He had lost hearing. Yeah, but not, he wasn't born deaf. I don't think he was born deaf. Oh, I thought he was born deaf. I didn't know that. I thought he was born deaf. No, there's this woman, and maybe you can find who she is. She choreographs music based off the vibrations that she feels in the floor. Yeah, see, I mean, talk about crazy heightened senses to be able to do that, right? And then there's the weird ones where people eat with their feet and stuff.  I can barely... Some people have a real crazy dexterity with their toes, but that creeps me out.   What's your parent advice? Barefoot. Like barefoot one is like a go-to one, because I just don't think anybody really thinks about it, and they think that's crazy to do that. Yeah, you look at pictures of like hunter-gatherers feet. Yeah, they're all like this. They're like the toes are all spread out and it's like all like muscly on the bottom. Like, oh my God, you could... And I think I feel so much... Smashed and hammered like mine. Yeah, yeah. I'm way more passionate about that after our experience with Dr. Brink, and really starting to like, I don't know why before as a trainer I didn't connect those dots. But when I saw all the dysfunction in my own body and then I realized how much of it was stemming from my feet, it's like, how many other people have all these pains that they deal with? Hip pain, back pain, knee pain. The whole kinetic chain of benefits from strong feet.  Yeah, who is that? Is that the person, Doug? I believe it's the person you're referencing, Alexandria Walis. Isn't that cool? Yeah. I'd love to see that. So along those lines, I went down this path of like people with weird abilities. There's this autistic dude that he gets in a helicopter, they'll fly him over a city once, he'll land, and then he'll draw the whole city, buildings and signs in detail with pencil, one time. That's flyover.  That's so wild. Cause he just, he saw one time. That's so wild.  Like, you know, like obviously I always wanted it to be sports. It's not going to be sports. It's going to be something else, right? And so I'm like, and as a dad, like that's all I feel like that's, that's my job. My job is help foster. Yes, is whatever it is, it could be something I'm totally not into, whatever, I accept that, you know what I'm saying?  And like, there's this glimmer of like, oh, it could be math. He's going to be math. I love math. Like I was into math big time. And like ever since that number thing, like it's wild. What I'm watching him able to super into it. Yes, like, and it's progressing. It's like, oh my God, dude, like it. And he's asking Katrina, like, you know, playing games with her where he's like, make it harder, make it harder. And yeah, yeah. And she's, and she's challenged. She's like, yeah, I kept challenging him. And I started going like a thousand plus this. And of course it's still easy for him. It's like a thousand plus one, right? It's like, it's like still easy, easy stuff. And then she'll throw him like a real hard curve ball and it'll stump him. And then you see, like a little. See, look at that. That's the guy. Dude, that is crazy. Stephen Wiltshire. Is that his name? Stephen Wiltshire. Look how, look how detailed that is. Look how detailed that is. And it's one time he saw it. No way. What? Yeah.  Yeah. Yep. Like just, just every minute. Like you're just like observing. And, and well, because too, we have to be able to discard a lot of information in order to. Well, you do this with, with studies. Yeah. I mean, I always. Not like that, bro. I mean, to an extent you do. Hey, you know what? Do not see how you do.  If you don't remember anything else. Well, people compliment how smart you are. I'm like, he's really not that smart. I'm like, he's not. Thanks, Alex. He's taking all his directional. I go, listen, Justin and I are smarter. But you guys don't know that. Is it like, we just remember studies.  You know the podcast. And then you would think that he's read that study 400 times and dissected it. I said that, but he has this ability to regurgitate it. How you do that? You, it's valuable for podcasting.   Do you know that? No. Now you see it right now. Now look at your nose. Yeah. And then. It's always in your, in your line of sight. It's always in your view, but your brain literally edits it out. Yeah. So that you don't trip up over that. That's a trip. That that sucked. Well, that's like all those. Make some real. Yeah, it's all those visual things that you just, you try to create or order out of what you're seeing it in terms of like the data you've already acquired. Well, let's see. So this brings it all the way back to that. What I said at the very beginning, right? It's like, uh, this is what I wish I knew when I was a kid, but also this is what I still have to teach myself.    This is terrible.  That was amazing. Did I, you had no idea what you need.  Have I told you guys, have you ever seen a LeBron James recall a game? No. If you haven't tell the boys, tell the boys to find a YouTube clip of LeBron James recalling plays in the game.  It's genius about it. It is so fascinating to watch him do this. Draymond Green has a little bit of it too. LeBron, I think is probably the most talented in this I've ever seen. And he will, like an interview will happen. And this is post game games over. He's sitting there after the locker room. Game's been over for an hour or two hours. And the people are just like, Hey, you know, the play down in the corner where you got the elbow, this and that was at the pivotal moment. And then he'll go, you mean, and then he'll recall like the previous, like two minutes of the game, like play for play where someone was on the court. Who passed it first and did what that, like to a tea like that? We ran him the first possession. We ran him down all the way to two on the shot clock. Marcus Morris, Mr. Jump Shot followed it up. He got it. They got a dunk. We came back down. We ran a set for Jordan Crawford. I mean, Jordan Clarkson and he came off and missed it. They rebounded it and we came back on the defensive end and we got a stop. They took it out on the sideline. Jason Tatum took the ball out through the market smart in the short corner. He made a three. We come back down, miss another shot. And then Tatum came down and went 94 feet, did a your old step and made a right hand layup timeout. There you go. And there's other viral clips that I've seen since I went down a rabbit hole of this after I was watching these clips. And there's this great viral clip of LeBron James playing. I want to say it was the Cavs. Uh, it was another team and he is on defense and, and they're running the team he's playing is running off at the running a play and the guy that is guarding is right in front of him and he's, he's lost. He doesn't know where to go. And LeBron leans over and tells him his team's play where he's supposed to be. And then he goes, he goes right, yes, yes. Oh, like, dude, that's the next level right there. Hey, what do you think these guys were 5,000 years ago? Right? They were all warriors, right? Had to. Yeah, yeah, they were all like on the field. Like, had to. That was your main. Mapping out the battlefield. Yeah, yeah. Bring out LeBron. Well, and they're built that way too. You know what I'm saying? If you imagine him walking on a horse. Yeah, yeah.  Six, six, you're like coming in, just slaying everybody. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Hey, I wanted to, I wanted to bring something up because you've made this comment on the podcast so many times, Adam. I would love to, like, do you really believe this all the time that, oh, uh, South fans don't like Adam or Adam, you know, whatever. Like we all have fans that don't like the other coast because they're hard 100% you think so? Yeah, I think we have a group of hardcore fan because this isn't, most of our listeners tend to say they like the whole thing, right? All of us, right. But, but you think I have, like, I have a hard core group that hates you or hates Justin and vice versa. Justin's not involved in this, it's you and I. Oh. Justin, you mean, oh, I get it. You know, that's true. Everybody likes you. No, no, no, no, everybody likes you. I don't have anybody. I don't. Think of one time, somebody like you. Uh, it's usually your fans. No, that's true.  It's been established. It's been established.  Oh, yeah.  They hate that. Let me know that.  They do.  This is how I think our audience is broken up. I think there is a, a large portion that appreciate all four personalities and how everybody works together. And I would say that's 60%. And then I would, yeah, no, yeah, only 60. There's a big bulk of division, I think. And then, so there's that 60, right? They're like everybody say equally. Well, it's like, I got a little, like, I'm nerdy. With the sound, I'm like sports and, and all that and being cool, you know, I'm over here with Adam. So it's like, you know, I'm kind of split. I will never pull. So the 40, the other 40, the other 40%, all like Justin. And then there's a probably a pretty close even split on that 40 of 20 of 20 or your people, 20 or my people. And they all like Justin.  Yeah. And they don't like it.  It's like, there's something about you that rubs them the wrong way. Just like something about me rubs your people the wrong way. You say you really believe that. Oh, it's a fact. I know it is. You should run a poll. And I think it's the funniest when I get people that will like pile on you. Like, it's like, I, like, I really don't like you or something. It is funny. It is funny. You guys, you guys like DMs of like showing videos of things of like, oh, this is like making fun of, uh, yes. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Send this to Adam. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.  Look at this. It's, although it is, it is less today than what I used to feel. I did notice that more in the past. And I, I don't know, maybe the, uh, maybe we've all become more likable in a sense. I don't know. I hope we're less hated. Justin's rubbing off on us a little bit, or maybe those DMs have just been buried. I don't see if any more of those people I don't recall calming you guys down a little, keep it a little more zen, but it is, I do think, I mean, it's funny because it's also what, why the dynamic worked with building a business because we're, we're just enough alike that we work well together, but we're enough different that we don't get sick of being around each other. Like we have this, this, this connection and bond with each other because we have enough in common, uh, that we appreciate, but we're, we're all very different. So I mean, when you think about all of, every one of us, the things that we're into and like, I think there's, I think the 60% that likes all of us actually thinks that we hang out all the time outside of here. We work out together, we go do things together all the time. And it's like, I don't think people realize how much we kind of disperse and go with hands and go, you know, we talk all day with each other. What do we do? You have to work. I don't want to talk with you. Hey, call up Justin South.   I talked for six hours with those guys yesterday. I'm literally exhausted. Yeah. Anyway, so, uh, I want to, I want to take, uh, a left here and talk about some more propaganda in the news. Did you guys see this article by the New York Post on protein intake that came out? Did you guys see it? Did I share it with you guys on protein intake? Here's the title of the article. You might be eating an artery damaging amount of protein for breakfast. New study warns for breakfast of all the meals they go after. This is so annoying. You might be. So yes, remember, when they say that, it means it's not true. What they're trying to do is either alarm people, get clicks, or there's an agenda, which I believe is the laziest ever.  I think it's part of it, right? Now here's the case is the case that the article makes one is, and I hate this one because it's so dumb, is how protein stimulates mTOR, mammalian target repamycin, which is a growth signaler. It also makes cancer grow.  That's not how it works in a pro-cancer environment, anything that promotes growth, any hormone that promotes growth, carbohydrates, amino acids, whatever can potentially fuel cancer. But in a healthy environment, pro-growth is fine. MTOR is healthy. Ideal, yeah. MTOR is healthy. It builds muscle, recovery, all that stuff. So that's, we already know that's super debunked. But the other argument it makes is that if Americans eat even more protein, then they're going to eat even more calories and get fatter. That's the argument they try to make, which completely flies in the face of all the studies that show that hitting protein targets is one of the best ways to control calories. Yes. Period. Makes it easier. Especially, that's what made me most infuriated about this, is breakfast. The data shows a high protein breakfast reduces blood sugar spikes throughout the day, regardless of what you eat. Which is huge on its own. Oh, OK. And controls your appetite because of protein's satiety-producing effects. So it's not just, again, misinformation. It's the opposite of what's correct. So mad. I find this like propaganda war so interesting to me because I don't care how hard they try, they're going to lose. Time will tell. Like, and I remember when the first, what was it, was it what the hell or what was the game changes when those came out? Well, thank God for new media allowing us to debunk and other people to go. You know, yes, but also I was really surprised by the amount of people that that changed their eating behaviors after that. Like, it was, I had people in my family and that I had no idea. They're like, and then we're still vegan, by the way. No. Yeah, no. Yeah.  Go for it. Because, I mean, because I know what we're talking about on here and I feel comfortable that we are speaking out or using our platform to communicate the truth and help people. So I don't feel guilty about all the knuckleheads that fall for this trap. Because the resource, there is resources out there. There are people that are sharing the right information that are trying to truly help you, that aren't trying to scare you into eating a certain way. And if you're too dumb to figure that out or to go research or look, look it up or ask questions like, hmm, yeah, that sounds weird or strange or counter from what I've heard or seen or noticed or feel in my body, if you're too dumb, then OK, then so be it. Eventually enough of those people that will fall into this trap that listen to this stuff will will come back full circle. They will have to. I don't know if it's just because the last few years and just like seeing just being kind of disappointed and depressed with, you know, how a lot of people like got swept into a lot of the propaganda and all this or it's just like to your point, it's like I started to think I'm like, well, it's it's pretty much survival of the fitness or the fitness survival of fitness. I like that. That's a good name of podcast. It is actually someone's going to do that now. Watch. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah. But I mean, that's that's just the thing I can't I can't put it upon myself to change somebody else's mind or the way that they view, you know, their reality. Like that's not my job. Like I have to just like live a good life and model what I can and see what happens, you know, with people around me. But it's just like it's frustrating and it's hard. It's the same conversation we have when a family member that you really want to get healthy and in shape, you know, what's the best approach? And it's like, well, you know, just keep doing what you're doing it magnified. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's funny is that along those lines, you said survival of the of the fittest. The the if you look at the data, it's actually already happening. The people who kind of follow the tenants that we that we promote are the ones having more kids, the ones that are following the propaganda are so disenfranchised and so upset and depressed and fearful or whatever, or just they think that they're going to get value out of life by, you know, maybe it's better not to have kids, they're not having kids. So the reality is in a couple generations, they're going to breed themselves out. Have you seen that the data on that? Yeah. I mean, it's been alarming. A lot of people have been bringing that up. Yeah. They're not they're the ones not having kids. So I think you're right. I think we just got to wait. It is. It's a it's a just hurry up and wait game because it eventually the the numbers won't lie. The stats won't lie. We've already seen what happens when people go that way. And the best that we can do is to try and help by informing as getting like getting infuriated by it and losing sleep over it. I just heard a spiritual I don't think it's come out of that. No, I just heard a spiritual influencer say on social media, there was like a clip. And she's like, they're like, what's the best diet? I'm like, oh, this will be good. Let's see what she says. And she goes, process foods aren't good. The more alive a food is, the better it is. So I'm like, okay, I see where you're trying to go. But whatever. Okay, so far, right, I guess. And then she goes. And but the more suffering of food went thought through worse it is to eat.  And I'm like, I see the point they're trying to make. Now you can make the case for raising animals in a humane way and all that stuff. But the argument about it being like if they suffer, it's not healthy for you. I don't know. Have you ever seen I mean, do animals ever not suffer in nature when they get eaten? Yeah, I mean, I remember I had I actually watched nature's metal, I guess immediately point them there.  And I'm like, I thought about it. I'm like, when do they not? When did that not happen when they die? Like does a lion like trick them into falling asleep? Yeah, no.  Just as perfect. Watch nature's metal. Let me know how many those animals look like they're not under stress when they're delicious out there, man. It's scary. Yeah, like, yeah, it's yeah, to be a cow like on a pasture like that's pretty. That's pretty awesome. You're not. That's not that stressed out. Water buffalo or I take care of you. If you take nutrition advice from a spiritual fit or a spiritual influencer on Instagram, if you deserve what you get, that's what I feel like. Oh, man. Anyway, more a meta analysis came out on exercise and depression. Another one, this was a big one, huge one. I really do see tide changing in the medical world when it in regards to exercise and and depression. This is a big study and it says effects of exercise for depression. And this is the summary for treating depression. Various exercise modalities are well tolerated and effective, particularly walking, jogging, yoga and strength training. Effects were comparable to psychotherapy and pharmacotherapy. Exercise work better when more intense. OK, across the board. So pretty cool. Now, these are these I think that they haven't gone to be intense. So what? Joga. I bet that's a that's a it's probably a ranch. It's got to be a beach body. Joga, it's got to be. Oh, my God, they're for sure. They have a Joga to hip hop. They have something for hip hop, Joga, hip hop, Joga coming out. Is that I was talking to somebody their day about the the strides business keep going. Does anybody know that was a big popular business for a hot minute there? Strides. Yeah, it's like basically like workouts for moms and strollers. Oh, brilliant concept. Very brilliant. Yeah, yeah. And I knew it was like hot. And when back when I was doing boot camps, it was it was like the big deal. And I haven't heard much about it in the last I don't know. And I wanted to tell you guys that I tell you guys my idea for not that I'm going to do this, but I thought this would be cool. Imagine a gym like a small gym, 8000 square foot facility and then in between the equipment are areas for kids play pens and stuff. And then the staff is trained on working with kids and watching kids. So the kids are around moms and dads while they're working out. And it's that kind of an environment. Of course, you'd have to charge for it wouldn't be cheap. Yeah. But imagine a gym like that. I can see a lot of parents. I mean, I love what we're dropping them off at the kids club like that's great. But I could you imagine if your mom and dad's doing. Yeah, you see. Well, yeah, I think that would be awesome. Right. To see a parent. Well, I mean, they have the kids strong, which I'm super interested in their business. And that's those are popping up all over. Yeah. The one is that the one Margaret says is Margaret has a kid that her kid goes there and I know Brendan is an investor. I have another friend who's an investor in it. And and they they teach them like more than just it's not just like, oh, go play. They're like they teach them math and they're teaching them all integrated. Yes. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a it's a really confidence. They teach them. They're teaching them a lot of different stuff. Oh, they have it. Look at that. It's called stroller strides. Yeah. Stroller strides. Yeah, yeah, that's it. I mean, that's a great concept. It is a brilliant concept. I love it. As if it's franchise. Is that right?  So I don't know if it's a workout that you can pay for access to, but it seems to be for the from this fit for mom program. Well, isn't stroller strides is not a registered trade trademark. Yeah, I think I think it's I think it's franchise. I don't know. Maybe Andrew. See, I I really did version of like plate loaded like sleds, but you put the kid in there or the seat. It's on to I think that there's a lot of parents who would even bring their kids to a gym like that who don't normally who don't need to take them like have them drop them off the kids club, but they're like, you know what, I want you to come with me. Like imagine working out a gym like that. Wouldn't you enjoy that with your kids kind of, you know, amongst, you know, I think maybe we should start one of these strider strides. You got to mute that, Doug. Maybe we should start one of these. I'm not. I didn't put it up there. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's not me. It's auto play. Yeah. Yeah. It's a brilliant business model though. Very brilliant. But you remember it back when you were doing? Yeah. Yeah. Back when I was doing boot camps, it was like it was a bit. In fact, I had some boot camp ladies that were like that was the thing they were doing before they had found my boot camp and other kids were like out of the stroller. And so I was training them like, oh, yeah, Dave, you're not hurt a stroller. I was like, what the hell is that? And I looked it up and like, oh, that's smart. Like that's really, really clever. Like to get and you know, like, you know, the dad markets not tapped in with that. I bet you that would be a market I'm saying. Yeah. Where dad can take his kids. Well, they do rucking, right? Like it's a big thing that's happening.  I mean, that's a great idea just that that itself instead of it being in a stroller, you have them strapped to you. And dad hikes or something. Dad hikes and body weight squats. I bet you there's something. There has to be. There has to be. There has to be so much. And it's not. It's an opportunity for someone to do. I think I brought this up in one of our. Until the kid has a blowout, right? Hey, guys, hold on. Yeah. We got a situation. Who's got a hose? While we were recording Katrina DM or message DM messaged all of us about Shallow's thing still on. He's like confident that he's going to be able to get enough people. Did we get that new link, Doug? Yeah, I'm looking up right now. OK. Yeah. So I just. So I mean, look, this is it's a great opportunity. First off, you're the first. How many people? 10. Yeah. First 10 people sit in on a live show. We're going to do a meet and greet. And of course, in order to do this, you become a part of a certification course, which is if you want a comprehensive fitness certification that teaches you like workout, programming and biomechanics on a whole another level, like this is the doesn't get much better than that. No, it doesn't. It's live. It'll be done in person. Yeah. That's so he does these virtually. So you have the ability to do it virtually, but to have access to him personally and to come down to the mine pumps. One of the smartest people in fitness. Yeah. No, I know. I love Shallow. What's that? Yeah. Go to minepumpl1.com. Minepumpl1.com. Yeah. That's going on from the 15th, 16th and 17th of March. Go check it out. Look, if you want to try the benefits of CBD, use Ned. Ned uses full spectrum hempoil extracts that have CBD, but also other beneficial cannabinoids. Look, here's the deal. Other CBD products you take them. You don't even know if you took anything with Ned. You feel it literally take it 30 to 45 minutes later. You feel more euphoric. You feel less inflammation and pain and you can sleep better. Go check it out. Go to helloned.com. That's H-E-L-L-O-N-E-D.com forward slash mine pump. Use the code mine pump.  All right. Back to the show. Our first color is Steven from North Carolina. Steven, what's going on, man? How can we help you? How's it going, guys? Good. What's happening? Perfect. All right. First of all, man, just want to thank you guys for the content that you guys put out. I think you just make me a better husband, a better dad and a brother and a better brother and so on. So thank you guys for that. Definitely improved my holistic outlook on not just fitness but life. So thank you guys for that. Appreciate that. Thank you. My question is, I'll turn 40 in July. I had the RGB bundle and I've cycled through the program for great results. I'm currently training three days a week, but during the summer I noticed that when I went to an upper lower split, I was having better results with body adaptation, sleep and energy. I recently transitioned back to Maths and Embolic in an effort to gain some strength. I'm seeing great results, but noticed that my sleep was off. Last week I had some drop sets and noticed a significant increase in my sleep and energy. What do I attribute this to? I'm not sore after working out, but I feel like my weight is progressing. What are your next steps for recommendations? And I kind of put some notes in here. My sleep, my slow wave sleep and my deep sleep probably went up from three hours to about three and a half, four hours. My HRB was up about 10 points, pretty consistent with calories at around 3,000. And if I had to put a goal on this, I'd say my goal is just optimal health and longevity. Okay. I don't think the drop sets are what improved your sleep. So many things can affect sleep, including just lifestyle and what's happening during the day and temperature. I mean, there's so many things that can affect this. I don't think a drop set, it's not like you went from not being active to being active. You were already active. Now, the occasional increase in intensity can induce some nice adaptation. Typically though, you'll need to back off so you can go short spurts. Can we peer into that a little bit more, Sal? I do have a question around like your activity level outside of the workouts. What does the rest of your day look like? Are you pretty sedentary? Do you move? Do you walk? Do you track steps? I probably ate to 10,000. I don't try to overdo it. I was over training there for so long and I think you mentioned a couple of podcasts ago that if you had to schedule a delayed week for anybody and it would be Sal. And I kind of train like that. I train first thing in the morning three days a week. Maybe one day a week, I do the sled, but not heavy just to get moving, doing mobility on Wednesdays and Saturdays. I consistently wake up at five o'clock just trying to be consistent. Just like I said, longevity is where I'm key. I'm not overdoing steps by any stretch of the imagination. Now you said you're not sore, but you are getting stronger? For sure. For sure. Like I've seen my dead lift go maybe five pounds or something like that. I'm not sore at all. I actually feel energized when I leave, which is the feeling that I want. I'm just trying to see what, you know, if I went from MAPS anabolic and then doing some drop sets, I mean, there's all kinds of, I realize there's all kinds of different variables, but I'm just trying to pinpoint from a training perspective is there something that I can increase or add? No, I would follow up MAPS anabolic with mass performance for sure, especially if you're looking for longevity. It's the perfect follow program to MAPS anabolic. It's going to move you in different planes of movement. You're going to add some rotation. It's going to help with your joint integrity. And it's a very similar program in terms of stress on the body. So if you respond well to MAPS anabolic, you'll do very well with mass performance. It sounds like we're trying to speculate on what, what like, you know, get to the bottom of what gave me this great sleep. It's probably, it's more likely something related to either nutrition or stress. Yeah, lifestyle problem. So I don't know what your, your currently has happened at work or with your wife or anything, anything like if, if something like that, that's more likely to have attributed to a good night's rest than adding a drop set into your routine. So it'd be different if you were, and what's out, and that's why I asked about the steps. Like if you were like this really sedentary person and then all of a sudden you went to working out, like absolutely, that can make a major impact on your sleep. But you've already been doing all that and the, and adding a drop set or an extra set or adding more weight to that. And then a sleep being amazing that night. It's more likely related to personal stress that you have or don't have going on in your life or nutritionally. Like another thing, another thing too is like I, I notice this when I make a choice to eat earlier in the night than when I eat closer to bed. Like when I give my body time to fully digest the food and I go to bed like hours later after eating versus eating when close to bed, that makes a difference in how good a sleep I get. So it's more likely something like that is, is what we did. The consistency of like hitting that same time I go to bed and the same time I wake up. Like that plays a massive factor for me as well. If I interrupt that it tends to kind of like throw everything off. Yeah. And you know, the other thing too, Steven is typically it's stress. However, it can also be excitement. So people, you know, any change from baseline can affect your sleep. So, you know, if I have something exciting, like good, something good that's happening the next day or the next week that I'm anticipating, that'll affect my sleep like stress will. So sometimes people just think it's, you know, something negative, but it can be something exciting.  I'm so excited about or whatever. That'll, that'll affect anything that's outside of baseline can affect your sleep. The other thing to look for is I don't know if you're a coffee drinker or not, but I know it's a huge difference on the days that I get my caffeine consumption earlier versus if I let it go a little bit out. Me drinking a caffeine drink one hour or two hours later than I normally do will make a difference on my sleep that night versus me getting it really early.  Yeah, I think a performance worked really well for me. I think aesthetic was a lot, but I finally got through it. The caffeine, I've kind of taken back before noon. So I have my last cup before noon and I'm probably somewhere between 350 and 400 milligrams there. So don't really try to overdo it, but it was just I was doing anabolic, went through anabolic performance, aesthetic, and then I went to Joe DeFranco's SB911 SB911 tried that where it had some unilateral movements in there and got some great results from that. So just trying to figure out what that next step was from. I don't have a lot of stress at home. I mean, home life's great. Job's great. I'm kind of in that sweet spot right now. So just really trying to just optimize my health and longevity. What about like old timey for him? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's okay. Now that I know more about the programs you've done. Yeah. Do you like doing different kind of workouts too? Man, I love to be challenged. I think for me, as long as I'm challenged and I'm working towards a go. Done deal. We're going to say you love this program. We're going to send you maps old time. You're going to train like Bronzera strength athlete. Yeah. And you'll love that. And you've done some great program favorites with Joe's and ours. Yeah. See, now that we know that this will be this will be something very unique. And so that'll send a new signal. That'll be good.  You're doing real well, man. Man, I appreciate that, man. Appreciate that, man. I'm trying to trying to be just trying to take from you guys, right? Take a little bits and pieces of learning experiences and failures and just adapt that. Like I said, holistically, it's not just about fitness. For me, it's man, I got to be a great husband. I got to be a great dad. I've got a little girl also. So just trying to just trying to make sure I set the good example for them and be a great leader at work as well. So just holistically, just want to be a person. You'll love maps all the time. Yeah. Good exact. Good, good. Good suggestion. Yeah. I'd love to hear back from you as you go through it too. You'd be a great person to hear how it turns out. We're going to shoot that over to you. Yeah. Oh, man, that's perfect. Thank you guys, man. I genuinely appreciate that. Thank you. You got it, man. Yeah. All right. Have a great one. Thank you. Doug, will you also send him a coupon code for 50 off of 40 plus? Because of the lifestyle stuff in there, he'll I think he'd get a lot of growth. I definitely like, yeah. He's a growth-minded individual. As we continue to talk, you could just hear that he's being growth-minded. It's like, you know, you're always going to get better. You're always going to improve. He comes across it that way, so that's awesome. And when we heard all the programs he went through, it was like a great mix. Yeah. He's got a great foundational base. I do want to continue the conversation a little bit between us on the sleep. Sleep, yeah. Right, so. Excitement will do it too. Because by the way, I totally, this is something I think about a lot, right? And I have these nights where it's like, whoa, that was so good. Or my score, or my over-range. What was it? Yeah, and so the order I'm going through, one of the last things I think about was something I did in my workout. Because that's, if I'm consistently kind of- If you're like super over-trained then, yeah. Yeah, right. So, yeah, exactly.  Yeah, 20 sets of squabs. Yeah, or I pushed myself like, okay, then maybe I'm looking peering into that. But that's not normally what I'm doing, because that's relatively consistent in my life of like as far as my training, routine, intensity, days, all that stuff like that is. So I'm like, okay, caffeine is normally a big one for me to look at right away. Did I eat? How did I eat? Did I eat? Yeah, diet-wise, was I on point? Did I eat closed dinner out earlier? Also, getting ready for bed. You know, did I stay away from electronics? I noticed the earlier I do that, the better. I know we tell people just an hour or two before, but I noticed- Dude, it makes- The more I get more sunlight- Yes, yes, did I go out? Did I go outside? And so that's, I just want to give- I just remember specifically, even at this was, I thought of you, Adam, like there was a, there was a purchase you were going to make. I'm not going to get too many details, but you were so excited. You didn't sleep for like four days. Yeah. Remember, you kept texting. Oh, no. I had terrible sleep like- Room I sleep- Because it was the thing you were excited about. Yeah, no, room I sleep for an entire week. And so, yeah, so I'm, so those are the, like I'm checking that. And I saw you was taking notes. That's why I wanted to go over and more with him so you can go, like I, and I'm going to go look at all those things and go like stuff is less likely unless it was way dramatic or over the top, right? Like you said, like over-reaching. Yeah. Our next caller is Nolan from Minnesota. Nolan, what's happening? How can we help you? Hey, hey, thanks guys. I appreciate being on your show. You got it. Before we got started too, I wanted to just say that you know, I listened to your show and a lot of the content that you put out about just your lives and being fathers and even to just fitness and you know, friends of yours, like Dr. John Deloni. I love that content and I think it's really, really good for people like me as we try to find good like male role models. So thank you. That's nice, man. I appreciate that. Nice compliment, man. So essentially my question is I have been working out for about a year and a half and last year in the springtime, I started to work out with a trainer and I worked out with that trainer until about December and I actually started to use a maps program since December. I'm on the end of anabolic phase three, which I've really liked. My question is about my time with my trainer. So when I worked with them, we only changed like my block, my training block three different times and I worked with them for about eight months. So we did a six-week block and then we did another six-week block and then I went into a cut and I was in that cut for about four or five months and what they said is during the cut we don't want to change anything with your training. And they were saying that the problem is that if you make changes, you could cause additional muscle tissue damage and essentially you'll maybe lose more muscle during your cut than you mean to. Basically what I'm wondering was that, is there validity behind that? If I do a cut again, should I be careful about changing my programming or should I stay with like how maps is structured where I'm going to have change up to more often? The opposite is true. Well, so Nolan, let me ask you this first. What did you get stronger? Did you see body composition changes? How did you feel during this period working with the trainer? Sure. So when I initially started working with them, I got significantly stronger. I was also going though from like, I was in a home gym and then I started working out in like a big box gym when I started working with the trainer and I saw like crazy big improvements which I did like. Well, on my cut, I did stagnate which over the course of those months I didn't really get any stronger. I actually got a little bit weaker. You know, when you're cutting for about four months, I probably lost about 15 pounds.  But you saw no strength decreases? Yes, correct. Just a little bit. Just a little bit. A little bit. Like not like major, it wasn't like major but a little bit. But a 15 pound loss. All right. So look, there's two schools of thought with this. Okay. And there's validity in both in my opinion. One of them is let's control as many variables as possible and then let's change the diet so that all the other variables stay exactly the same and we know exactly what the diet is doing for the person. Okay. As far as excessive muscle damage, stuff like that, maybe, but really the validity has more to do with. We're going to make this change. Let's keep everything else the same and then change accordingly if we need to. The second school of thought says we're going to go into a cut. One of the best ways to send a louder muscle building signal is to switch up the workout, right? That novelty effect tends to do that. Now the challenge with that, and here's why a lot of trainers don't go with the second school of thought.  And now it's like, okay, am I too much of a cut? Like what's going on? Why isn't my body responding? Why am I getting weaker? Whatever. Whereas if you control the variables, we can very easily see, oh, okay, the same exercise we've been doing for the last five weeks. Now we're seeing a slight decrease. Maybe the cut is too high or whatever, right? So they're both good. They're both okay. I tend later in my career, I would switch the workout up with the cut. But I also knew, you know, just through experience, where we would go, like, you know, and I would always typically go with lower volume into the cut to kind of manage the potential muscle loss. But you know, without looking into the getting real clear and exactly what happened with workouts on, it would be hard for me to say if it was a right or wrong thing. I will say this, losing 15 pounds and seeing a little bit of a strength loss, that's not bad. No. That's not bad at all.  This isn't a right or wrong per se situation. Like it's not like, you know, I said to you, the opposite is true, but by that, I don't mean that what he's saying is wrong either. It's not like you can't do what you did because you obviously did that and you actually sound like you got pretty good results. So it's not a, you know, this is the wrong way, this is the right way. I've done both with clients for a very long time and I've just had way more success by changing the adaptation up. And one of the ways that I love this show and part of this too, which you know on our show, we're always talking about not just the science behind it, but also the psychological piece that comes with it. Bingo. One of the most challenging parts about getting in a cut is losing strength because it's inevitable or plateauing or just feeling weak. One of my favorite ways to show you strength gains in a cut is to introduce new movements. For example, if you've never done a barbell hack squat, right, it's a very unique exercise. So I just threw something out that maybe you've never done before. And you and I, I was training you and we put you on a cut and I introduced that movement to you. The first day we did it, it's going to be difficult, it's going to be not very good at it, but I guarantee the very next day we do it again, you're going to be a little bit stronger. Even though you're in a cut. Even though you're in a cut. And then the very next time you do it again, you're going to be a little bit stronger. And so you get to see these strength gains in the gym while we're depleted and we're cutting and you should be probably losing some strength. And so the psychological benefits of that, that is one of the most positive things that I've seen from that. And then I also think there's some value of you're incorporating muscles that you really didn't train in other planes or other exercises that you were currently doing. And so we are building some muscle too. So there's value of potentially building muscle in that cut. The psychological benefits of seeing yourself get stronger in the gym in something while you're in a cut, which is really difficult to do. And so I have moved away from what Sal was allude to, which when I was a new trainer. Yeah, you controlled everything. I wanted to control every variable and then if I tested it with a client that way I could tell them, Oh, it's because we're cutting too much or we're not cutting enough because I didn't change any of these other variables. Or now I've been doing this long enough that I know if I cut somebody by this many calories, I know what's going to probably happen. Then I also know if I change these variables in the workout routine, I also know what the benefits of that psychologically will be with them. And so I forever moved in that direction. That is that. And that's how I train myself. Like if I am changing from a ball, and it goes for the same in a bulk too. If I go to bulk or cut anytime I transition diet, I also switch programming up. It just, it's like a mental shift. You can't, this cannot be overstated. You've been doing this for a while now, Nolan. So this is good, this is good advice for you. When you're considering all the factors with diet and exercise and lifestyle at the top, at the top is going to be the psychological aspect, the mental aspect, because that affects everything else. So I don't care what the data says. I don't care what the numbers say.  So the first option would be how a scientist would approach this. What a scientist does is they change one variable and try to keep everything else the same. But you're not a lab rat that we can control perfectly where how you feel doesn't matter. You're going to do what I tell you to do. The psychological aspect is massive. It can't be overstated. So that's why I say, that's one of the main reasons why I switched to the second approach, even with myself. Adam said he does this with himself. I do it myself. And I know what's going to happen. I know it's going to mess with my head, but I still do it. So I still change it in a way where it'll help me psychologically because I know what's going to happen. And I can anticipate it's going to happen. So it can't be overstated. I saw in your question too, have you you've never run a maps program yet? No, he did. So yeah. And I actually, I kind of changed how I asked my question because when I emailed this in, I had never run a maps program. And actually around December, so around the holiday time, I actually let my trainer go and I actually switched to running a maps program. Okay. So part of my original question was asking, like, hey, should I stick with my virtual trainer who this is somebody who they worked at the gym I worked at, but like I wasn't seeing them in person. I was doing like a once a week virtual check-in with them. I could send them videos of me doing the exercises and they would critique them. They had a really nice app that they had made for their program. So that part was good. I felt they were a little pushy with doing a meal program with me that kind of became like the focus of like every check-in for the last three months, which I guess I wasn't a cut. So that makes sense. And my one of my questions was, hey, should I stick with this trainer or should I switch to a maps program? Well, yeah. Obviously, I'm going to tell you to switch to the maps program. I'm also going to tell you this. I'm going to have Doug put you in the forum and you'll get that. Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. One of the ways that people use the forum the most is exactly what you just said is they will video themselves doing movements.  Look, I'm going to get a lot of flack for saying this, okay, but a virtual trainer or coach, most of their value is going to be with diet. When it comes to training, in-person is what you want. An in-person trainer who's good, I don't have a maps program that can compete with a good in-person trainer for exercise. But a virtual trainer with workouts, it's better than nothing for sure, but the value of them virtually is mostly going to be diet. It's not going to be the workout stuff. I mean, the idea of maps programs was to compete with the virtual type coach in training. It was not to compete with in-person training. You've only been listening for a year, but we've been saying that since we started this, that a good, a really good, one of us in-person could never compete with the virtual version of us. Just can't because that's real time. I can ask you how you slept last night, how you're feeling right now. I can see the way your body's moving and I can make on the fly adjustments based off of what I see real time and just no virtual coach can do that. None of us can. Unless they're following you around with a camera and you're literally posting. Even then, there's something missing. Yeah, it's just not the same as having that in-person. So an in-person good coach is better than the best maps program, but I guarantee you that maps program with the forum access that I'm giving you right now will out-compete anybody that's doing anything virtually for you. Yeah, that would be huge. I mean, the switch over to maps has been actually really, really great for me. The only thing that I was missing was being able to do a quick on-the-spot check-in of is this movement good, which now I've been working out for a year and a half. I'm kind of getting past that point of needing to check every single exercise. You post the video on them in the forum. You'll get lots of feed. There's lots of trainers and coaches. That's how most people use it actually right now is to do forum check. That's awesome. Well, thanks guys. I really appreciate it. You got it, man. All right, no, we'll see you in the forum. Yep, have a good one. You got it. You know, I got to make this point again. Everybody wants to do the thing that the data shows produces the 5% more, whatever. It's the psychological piece that you have to consider the most. The thing that you said, Adam, is the most important thing that we said. I don't care if they're equal. It doesn't matter. If I can make the client feel better, then that's going to work better. It's just a bottom line. It's 100% bottom line. In what you were talking about, the strength gains during the cut because it's a new exercise, those are CNS adaptations. They also matter. Will you build more muscle? Probably. But even if you don't, going into your workouts on a cut and seeing improvements in your strength or reps, like, is that going to make this more sustainable? You better damn believe it. This is the difference of, I mean, I feel like this generation, we've created even more of these trainers, right? And I'm not going to name drop the trainers that are famous on YouTube. And all they do is break down studies. And they coach virtually from studies. That's better than a guy who doesn't know anything, I guess. But it's definitely not better than somebody who's trained hundreds or thousands of people in their lifetime and have already put all the studies to test and compared them to other things too, like the psychological piece. And your point, what I have found is that I don't care how good the study is, if I noticed that it messes with my client psychologically, that makes a bigger difference on our total results. I don't care what the studies say. So that always gets better. And then when you talk about something like this, where it's kind of a splitting hair difference, like, yeah, we could train this way where we don't change any variables in just a diet or we can switch it up. There's not even, like I guarantee if we took two test groups that did the difference there, you would see minimal to not much change. But I guarantee if we dove into the psychology. Which one do you like? Which one did you like? Which one do I do more? Right. Then you notice a difference. Our next caller is Anthony from Florida. Anthony, what's going on, man? How can we help you? Hey, guys, how are you doing? I appreciate you having me on. I love the podcast. You guys have given me a lot of great information just in the past few weeks. I actually just recently found you guys about a month ago and I found you at like the perfect time. So I'm going to give you like a quick background before I just jump into the questions that I had. But basically like, you know, I've kind of been in and out of the gym pretty much my whole life. But I got to a point where, you know, I have young kids. My work kind of got crazy. I just got completely like out of shape for a while. And, you know, I'm five eight and I got up to like 245 pounds. Like I was just kind of a mess, you know? And finally some things changed and I was able to really start taking care of myself. I had some time work on a little bit better for me. So as soon as that happened, I was like, all right, time to get back into the gym. Take care of myself. And I did the only thing I knew how to do which was kind of just like jump right into a cut. So in one year, I cut the whole time. I didn't like go in and out. I'll take any breaks like I probably should have just for lack of knowledge. And I went from 245 down to about 185 in that year. Started off obviously my calories were fairly high at the time. And I got down to like 1900 calories. And that was like probably about a month ago. And like I just got to this point, like my workouts were just absolutely terrible.  I didn't even want to, like I was weak. I didn't even really want to work out anymore. And I kind of knew in that moment, like, all right, I need to eat more or something's going on. So I started doing a little bit of a research and that's great when I found like, you guys talking about reverse dieting. So like that day, I literally went from 1900 calories to 2300 calories in within 24 hours. Like I felt just so much better just from that increase in my calories right there. And then so I kind of stuck with that because I was like learning about the reverse diet and I didn't want to jump too fast. So I did about, I'd say about 20 days at 2300 calories. And I actually lost weight. I went from 188 and now I'm down to 183. After about 15 days of that, I jumped up to 2700. My strength just skyrocketed. My workouts got so much better. Everything just started getting better. So that kind of brought me into, you know, my questions were basically like, as far as reverse dieting, am I going too slow? Should I be eating a lot more than I even am? I'm somebody that works out five to six days a week an hour of just straight lifting. And then that brings me to my next question is, am I even working out the correct way for my body at this point? Well, how was your progress in the gym? Are you getting stronger? Yeah.  I feel a lot better. My energy is a lot better. Like I said, but for some reason, I lost weight still. Anthony, if you're getting stronger and your weight is staying the same or going down, you are, you're building muscle and getting leaner, dude. Yeah, yeah. And that's what has happened. That's fire. Is that you increased calories, you built muscle, that sped up your metabolism, meaning now your body wants more calories. And so just keep doing that incrementally. I think you're doing, I would love to, I would love to put you on one of our programs just because we're kind of good at that. And if, you know, not to say that what you're doing is wrong, but I think that if we set you up with something, I think between that and what you're doing, reverse dieting, I think you're going to see tremendous results. You're doing a combo, yeah. Tell me a little bit about the... Yeah, no, that's the question. Tell me a little bit about the way you do these training. I see it's a training split. It looks like upper body, chest, shoulders, and then you do like a... Tell me a little bit about your split. So I know what program I think... Yeah. So for like the first like probably eight months, I was like exactly what you guys call like the bro lifted. Like I would just go in and do, I would just smash chest for an hour. And then the next day I would smash back for an hour, you know? And I would just do like tons of different sets, like way over the top, probably way too much. And then I got to the point where I was like, all right, I'm going to start doing like some type of splits. And I started doing like chest shoulders and triceps one day. And I, but I was still, I still was probably doing like way more sets of each thing that I necessarily needed to. And then I would do back buys and traps. And then I would go into legs and stuff like that. And then since listening to you guys, like I've been adding in a couple of... So I'll start my week off with a full body workout. And then I'll do a chest split with the shoulders and the trice. And then I'll do the back and the buys. And then I'll do a leg day. And then I'll jump back into a full body kind of workout routine.  And you're getting, and you're getting strong. And you're getting stronger and improving. Yeah. I'm definitely getting stronger. And I, and that's my issue is like, I have this horrible, like, and I know it's wrong, but I have this like mental block that like if I, if I'm in the gym for an hour and I don't feel like, I feel like I can keep going. And I'm like, oh, I didn't do enough. You know what I mean? And I know that's actually wrong, but I have that hard time of being like, okay, like I'm over doing it. And I kind of felt yesterday for the first time, like that I might have been like going a little bit too hard because it was like, you know, my calories are up. It was the first day of, you know, first time in a while that I kind of felt like, oh, I don't really want to be here, but I kind of pushed through it. I just did like a really, really light weight workout and like just lifted slow and kind of concentrated on like the movements more. Anthony, this bit of dramatic. Hold on a second. The picture you sent us is that recent? Yeah, that was a couple of days ago. Yeah. Bro, you're jacked. Bro, you're jacked.   No, he's on TRT. He's on TRT. You're on TRT, right? Yeah, I put in that. Yeah, my, my level is when I first started getting back to the gym, like they were just like, incredibly low. I went to the doctor and they're like, you definitely need to be honest.  So like, I was like, all right. I got, I got a program for you. Let's go maps and a ball like advanced. I think you'll love that program. You obviously can handle the volume, the intensity. So I'll send you that program and that'll, that'll, that'll, you'll like it. And I would bump your calories again. Let's go, let's go up another 300 calories. So where you're at, I'm looking at your physique right now. You're in a great place. Bro. And the goal now is literally, so it's going to sound crazy, but the goal is where I want you to be, is to be able to do less work and eat more calories and maintain that physique. And that's, that is possible. I can keep you looking that good, increase your calories significantly more, and have you doing probably half the work you're doing right now. So that's the goal. The goal should be that. So not how much of a beating you can take in your workout. It's more like, can I slowly keep increasing these calories while backing off the amount of hammering myself and continue to maintain this physique? Like that is possible. Yeah. You do maps and a ball advanced with a, with a 300 calorie bump. You're going to, you're probably going to put another five pounds of lean body mass on. Yeah. You're doing good, bro. Okay, cool. Yeah. Cause I know, cause like since listening to you guys, like I definitely was somebody that like neglected doing like bar squats and like dead lifts, mostly because I had a back injury when I was completely out of shape. But like, I feel great now, but I'm like, no, the more I hear you guys talk about it, the more I'm doing it and like, I feel really strong and everywhere. And then I do those exercises. I'm like, I'm not that strong, but I'm just trying to really like learn those routines. That's good. Yeah. Bro, take your time with that. Yeah. That's perfect. Bro, that's exciting. Jesus Christ, you're not good at those lifts. So much potential. Yeah, you're going to, you're going to put more than five pounds of lean body mass. I'm going to add that to the goal, right? Is to just be a good deadlifter. Like that's the other goal. I'm going to add to what I just said originally to you is like, if you do the things I said and get just good at deadlifting, watch the gains you're going to get just from that and training that way. Yeah. Yeah. 300 calorie surplus, follow anabolic advanced. I predict by the end of it, five, at least five pounds of lean body mass. Okay. And so my only other question would be like, as far as that program, so the gym I work out, they only have a Smith machine. Like, is it doable to do this stuff on a Smith machine or should I go to a new gym? Is it feasible for you to go to a new gym? Yeah. I mean, it's more just convenience. Like I got young kids and, you know, I already feel guilty, like leaving my wife home with our kids. So like I try to make it as, you know, as quick and, but whatever, at the end of the day, like it's not going to make, like, yeah, I can change gyms. Yeah.  Okay. But, you know, deadlifting, barbell squatting, without a Smith machine, it's a different exercise. Yeah. Right. I would either do that or literally invest in just a barbell and some plates so you could deadlift at home because that's all you need. Okay. So, yeah. So that's also a possibility. Like, so I have like a real basic setup at my house, but I still have a gym membership.  I'll do the gym. But if so, that's not a bad investment and it's not crazy ridiculous. Barbell and stuff. No, that's worth it. I actually was thinking about that because my wife's due with that third kid in a couple of weeks and I kind of felt like I'm probably not going to be leaving the house as much. So maybe, maybe that's a good time for me to realize. Bro, check out. Live season. Go to, go to mindpumppartners.com. Scroll down to, scroll down. So mindpumppartners.com. We'll send you the link. And then scroll down to PRX.  So you can literally still park your cars in the garage. You can still have all this space. It's a squat rack that folds into the wall. And it's, it's, it's more. Oh yeah, I know what it is. Oh yeah, you'll like it. And they do a thing on there to where it's like payment plans, like a gym and they compare it to a gym membership. So they, they're literally like, buy all this equipment and you'll pay your monthly payments. Just like you're having a gym membership and now you have your gym in your house. Right.  So that, that's if you did the whole gym.  So it's like super clean inside your garage. Yeah. Nice. Okay. You got, what is this? Baby number three coming? Yeah. My third daughter. Oh, three girls, man. Three girls. Yeah. You know what that means, right? You know what that means? That means you were probably a playboy when you're in your, in your single. Yeah. Why does God do, God does that a little bit. Isn't that crazy? Isn't that every one of, every one of my boys that was a playboy has got three girls. Yeah. That's why I gotta get, that's why I gotta get into good shape. Cause when that first guy comes knocking on my door to take my daughter on, I want to be like, yeah. That's right. I know, guys. Let's go. Hey, daughters are the best, man. God bless you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I appreciate it. All right, Anthony. All right, Anthony. And so just my last quick thing was like, the only thing I felt like I, I lack in progress in like, for the amount of chest I do, I feel like everything's growing, but I have a high time seeing like, the improvements of my chest getting bigger. Do you think just by doing this new program, like I'm, that's just not even going to be. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Let's stick with that now. And then if you're still feeling that way after this program, hit us back up. And then we'll talk about what to do next. Run it all the way through and see what happens. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right, Anthony. All right, man. All right. Appreciate it, guys. Talk to you later. All right, bye. What a transformation pair. Dude, I know. He pulled it out. Super impressive.   And he said he lost 60 pounds right over the last year. So I was, I was expecting him to kind of have that look of somebody who just lost 60 pounds. Well, because then there was another before and after where it looked like he had lost the weight and then he started lifting. Yeah. And he built a ton of muscle and lost more body fat. Yeah. That's incredible. It's all there, man. Yeah, incredible. You know, the fact that he can handle what he's doing now and he's improving, you bump the calories, do anabolic advantage. He's gonna, I said five pounds, but I wouldn't be surprised if you put more on. No, no, he'll probably put more on. We'll be in body math. Our next caller is Daniel from Australia. Daniel, what's happening? Hello, you guys. Thanks so much for taking my call. Been listening to you guys for a while now for a few years and I've just, yeah, love the work you guys do in the fitness and health space. So great job. Keep it up. Thank you. So just a bit of background to my question. After a fair few years of groundwork, I finally managed to get my wife to do some strength training with me. She was previously into the classic calorie cuts, running through body composition changes and I finally managed to get her along with cardio and I finally managed to get her to do some strength training with me and we run through anabolic twice. So she's motivated to go basically for success with how clothes fit and before and after picks. Whereas me, I'm more of a numbers guy and I want to see the bar increase. So my goal for her is to get her as strong as possible and just trust the process that the physical goals and body recompositions going to come with the result of the work that she's put in. So my question is that we still want to do a little bit of cardio. So potentially on trigger days and on days that we can't lift. And I know what you guys think about cardio, but for us it's more the reason why I'd like to do the cardio is to do just a bit of cardio vascular health. I'm a physical education teacher in high school. I don't want to get gas when I'm playing basketball with kids at school and scrimmage and stuff like that. So my question is what about anaerobic activities? Can doing some high intensity cardio assisting fat burning but preserving muscles? So basically short interval sprints 85% to 100% of your max heart rate, your work to rest ratio intervals of one to five sort of a thing and getting those intervals going. So we're currently doing maps performance with the goal of pulling on some muscle. But I just yet interested in the cardio and especially the anaerobic activity cardio and want to know what you guys would think. Great question. Yeah, I don't ever do cardio with the goal of fat loss. But if the goal is health or longevity or stamina or endurance. Excellent. Cardio is amazing. If you're looking for athletic performance type stamina then high intensity interval style cardio is probably best, right? So sprints or interval type training. If you're looking for longevity act you just movement then low intensity type cardio is fine for that kind of stuff. Walking, hiking, even long distance running if it's appropriate for you is totally fine.  Now, which one of those is the most muscle preserving? Well, it's going to be the one that's most like strength training which is going to be the high intensity style. One thing I'll tell you though, Daniel, to keep in mind though is high intensity interval training style cardio like sprinting it can start to dip into your body's ability to recover because it's intense. So just pay attention to that, right? Is it starting to add too much stress to your body? Do you have to compensate by reducing volume and other parts of your training type of deal? That would be the only thing I would say. The other thing I would add to that is stay fed, fed before and after. So like whenever I was trying to like I played basketball while I was also trying to change my body and my physique and so because I love playing the sport, right? Although I knew that all that basketball playing was not serving my bodybuilding goals, right? I knew it wasn't helping that but I love playing basketball and I didn't want to not be able to play a pickup game on Saturdays because I was so out of shape. So I played. So for me before and after I played I would always get, I would drink like a liquid within 30 minutes of me playing. I would drink three, 400 calories liquid that I'd get into my system. And then as soon as I was done I would make sure I fed the body. That way I wasn't in this like depleted state while also pushing really hard in cardio. So that'll just, that'll help. That's better. So it's not going to, it's not going to hurt the the muscle goals or I know there's also like in a far look training if you go for the, you know, it's like a continuous run but where you're doing the the high intervals during a continuous run would is that something I don't want? You don't want to hurt the gains but I also want to get that cardiovascular. The way that it could hurt the gains is if it compromises your body's ability to recover and adapt. Okay. Now I want to say this too just overarching. Also if it takes you out of a a core maintenance. Yeah.  So now that being said you're already obviously healthy you're already obviously working out you're doing great. So this added cardio is it going to improve your health? Probably not but it will improve your performance with stamina but it probably will take away a little bit of your ability with your strength training. So it's going to be a bit of a trade. How much of a trade? I don't know but if you if you value the stamina endurance in the time with your wife doing this kind of stuff Yeah. I mean who cares? Yeah and I think I think a lot of people don't realize like so if we increase the number of reps that you're doing with a lot of these exercises like your heart rates going to go up you're getting a lot of cardiovascular endurance type benefit even just from from changing your rep range around. And so you know a lot of those same kind of traits and benefits for longevity and health you're going to receive from that too you're doing performance which is addressing a lot of movement specific you know reinforcing your joints and making sure like your able-bodied and athletic in terms of the actual overall like stamina cardiovascular side of that you know if you if you can can kind of undulate that in blocks like how it's kind of laid out in the program like you're going to be just fine you're going to be able to maintain and keep a pretty pretty pretty nice stamina throughout like your you know if you're running around with kids and all that like it's still going to be there are you are you and the wife in a calorie surplus or maintenance or deficit what are you guys running right now diet wise we're trying to be sort of in that maintenance too I've been bumping her from a few sort of going into to surplus into a few little cuts and then into a surplus so yeah sort of doing sort of like a four to six weeks in one and then dropping down into another for another sort of four to six weeks and then just just mixing it up a little bit so right now we're pretty much in a surplus I think here's what I would say too it's like if you guys enjoy if you're like a fitness couple you love working out together you really enjoy this you like the stamina that comes from athletic performance here's what I'll tell you to do on those days find something you enjoy doing together whether it be a sport or hey let's go run the beach or let's do this like really challenging hike do that instead and you'll get better results from doing that just because of the enjoyment then trying to tie it to fat loss because that can be kind of a losing battle and people and when you're doing it out of enjoyment it kind of self modulate you know you tend to modulate it naturally and that's what I would recommend especially because you're doing it together so rather than being like okay we need to do this specific workout whatever say Thursday let's go do that that crazy hike that we've wanted to do or let's go let's go to that beach turn up some pickleball yeah or let's go play a sport like have fun with it yeah the real the real challenge or juggle here is and it has everything to do with like how much of that attribute you want right like Sal was kind of alluding to this where it's like if you want to be really good playing the sport and having stamina then it's going to take a little bit away from our building muscle it's just a fact like will it completely stop it no not necessarily but it could if you're doing a ton with the weight training and you're doing a ton with that and so one of them needs to scale back a little bit and you just need to decide so if you end up finding yourself where you're like man you're really and this is how I'd have to juggle like basketball like there'd be times where I'm playing once a week or once every other week and so I just need to maintain enough stamina to where I don't get my ass kicked when I get on the court then there was other times where I was playing three times a week well the times where I was ramping up and I'm playing three times a week I had to scale back on the strength training because lifting more weights was not benefiting me having more muscle although people don't think of it that way they think oh my god I'm lifting less weights how could that be serving me with building muscle well it is if you're also doing a ton of cardio and stamina it's a play with the world you know what's interesting when I was like experimenting that with like getting back into like rec basketball and like trying to you know move around what was really the most fatiguing was the unfamiliarity with the movements and so for me focusing more on mobility and reinforcing a lot of those like rotational movements lateral movements things like that my body got less you know I didn't have to expend as much energy to produce the better the better skill you have with the movement the less tiring and exhausting it's going to be and this is just I mean obviously right if you really bad at a movement and you go try and do it you can use a lot of energy trying to do it the body starts to become very efficient so Justin's point is like I mean it's beautiful because if you're trying to get more stamina for a specific type of sport well playing that sport will do about anything yep well it's yeah it's more just I want to get her as strong as possible and put on some muscle because I know that's you know obviously all the health benefits of that and that's also the best for body recomposition because she wants to just sort of lean out a little bit but for me it's more just for the cardio vascular aspects and just for you know the pickup basketball game at school or something like that so I'm not like looking to be an athlete but I am looking at the priorities to put on muscle and strength and then but I do want that cardio vascular aspect so that you just don't get gassed so so sounds like go have fun with it then awesome thank you so much for help appreciate it you got it man thanks for calling in cool see you up I want to talk to that point that you made Justin they've done studies on this well they'll take extremely high level incredible VO2 max athletes with incredible endurance and they'll have them do their chosen the sport that they compete in they'll do the and they'll switch to something and then their calorie expenditure goes through the roof and their ability to perform it drops significantly yeah you know and it's weird that I mean I just kind of thought of that because even even if you're doing something silly like a wee boxing or you know or like something that's like you wouldn't do normally but man why am I so tired totally so exhausted it's just you're just you're bought you haven't trained that way with your body yet so your body has to expend a bit more energy to be able to recognize 100% look if you like the show head over to mindpumpfree.com check out all of our free fitness guides you can also find us on Instagram Justin is at mind pump Justin I'm at mind pump to Stefano and Adam is at mind pump at him