Welcome welcome everybody Welcome to classic cast. I'm here with tips out. I'm here with stay safe and today. We have preach gaming joining us and preach Would you go ahead and introduce yourself, please? I will The producers of the show have asked me to say classic. Wow is the best Retailers are filthy scumbags and we shall all rejoice Okay, I also make a guy content. Good. I'm just making sure you got the whole thing down All right guys, well that's it for classic cast. Thank you guys so much for joining us today No, it's great to have you man. It's great to have you Yeah, a lot of a lot of people have wanted you on the show for a long time now So this is gonna be a lot of fun. I think a lot of people are gonna enjoy this When would you get started playing well? I'm a beta baby beta way allowed to say that or does that make me some sort of elitist scum? During the alpha anyway, so oh they beat me then yeah They cleared Knax and got ring 14 on the alpha Well, I cleared Knax on my DK, I'm pretty hardcore There you go. Yeah, but I was playing a different MMO, but I was into MMOs and Wow came into beta and suddenly I don't know if Blizzard was behind it They might have been I've thought about this a lot suddenly our game started filling with wow beta keys to Come and try this new game. I actually thought it was terrible Yeah, it was all fairies and it was I've always been more Star Trek than Lord of the Rings And I was looking at it was all cuddly cartoony. It looks a bit where my anime weebo to me And all my friends were like this is the best game ever and I was like you can't even murder anybody horribly And I left it and then I came back and I was like I remember leaving and then thinking about it all night I was like really do what I see what's past there. I really do want to go and see what's past there Yeah, and then I came back and that's I was hooked for a little while after that So what did you play a little while? Yeah, a little while a little while. I did leave again. I did leave again I was I Made a night elf hunter. Yeah with my friend who also made a night elf hunter And we were very clever one of us picked up cooking the other one picked up fishing and we did spend many hours Sat by a lake with one of us fishing the other one cooking everything we caught It's a teamwork pets. Yeah for our pets man because the pets need feeding. Otherwise, they'd be unhappy and That made me very sad. So I did that and then I didn't know what to do I was so lost that I just gave up and then I came back with more friends later made a warrior Which nobody liked I had a dwarf warrior. He was Stuck trying to get into molten core and Then finally my other MMO friends came and I made a priest because nobody else would play a healer And that's what I was through the majority of it. That's why I saw all the concept. So I actually left twice I didn't leave the game twice There you go. I think it's so funny said your first character's night elf I think I think everyone's first character was a night elf They look so cool. I know I know the new flips Yeah, I could do flips which was big at the time. It was really big Plus I'd already done like five darnaces quest what we're gonna do re-roll like I've committed How you said you got trouble getting in and see on your warrior, how far'd you eventually get oh, yeah You ready for the nostalgia buttons? My brother was a very big deal in vanilla and he was part of a guild that was already doing molten core They were a big big fish and he got me into the guild And I expected as many people still do to this day that that then entitled me to be carried all the way to exactly where they were up to And to be fair, they did offered to bring me to a nixia and Then I got there and couldn't get inside and then they're like have you done the attunement? I was like, what's an attunement? They kicked me out said go and do your attunement. I couldn't They had a spot for molten core and they asked what my fire is this was I went what's fire is this?  I thought he's a leased Filth where basically they were just like no just do the work and then we'll bring you along for free ride, right? Something that's that's so funny. You said that you're doing talking about like elitist whatever, but in vanilla. Wow, I think a lot of people They they understate this and you played another MMO. What MMO do you play prior to wow? The big one I play was called neocron It's a futuristic sci-fi post-apocalyptic MMO very PvP focused but also had a lot of PvE in it It wasn't wow PvE, but a lot But it was very PvP focused very vicious like it certainly compared to wow if you killed somebody you've got their item Which you can imagine him wow would be like Oh But that was novel like if you had something as rare as Nash County you could lose it in that game So you do you remember Do you remember whenever other MMOs everybody was playing other MMOs before wow right the people who were and Wow got announced and the people started talking about like oh That's the Care Bear game and people talked about how easy and casual wow was and it's it's funny now Everybody talks about vanilla wow like it was this crazy hardcore game And it's only you know you have to be in a leaders to play vanilla wow and this and that I think it's funny how Casual friendly vanilla wow actually is and a lot of people just they're used to MMOs today as opposed to MMOs Maybe 20 years ago, and it's just funny how the times change Well game is in general a different now like I Tell the story is that I knew somebody who showed his younger brother Dark Souls The first question the younger brother had after about 30 minutes of playing was how much is it to buy souls? micro-transactions That's how he's grown up with games This option likes him it makes total sense whereas to us. It's like okay crucify him like immediately and remove that But that's that's the thing that is normal to the younger gamers I guess because we are old in gaming terms Yeah, kind of similar idea there are people these days kids is that they don't even know what the term RTS means Yeah, they've never played an RTS game Forex is mind-blowing But yeah, like I'm actually quite harsh with my sons they have two boys And they're not allowed to play those kind of games. They're very easy It's done them a favors my son's actually clear the forest now of Super meat boy the first world the forest. He's only five So I've been pretty impressed with that. It's looking two hours to do a wall jump trick, but he got that So happy when he did it next year next year. He's mythic rating dude. They're not quite healing me maybe Not letting him get like bogged down in micro transactions and stuff Yeah, that's good. That's good. It's funny. Actually, I think an article came out yesterday or today Saying that Ian Activision made like 79 billion dollars on the backs of micro transactions like in the past couple years Do you guys see that 79 billion dollars? That's crazy, man. Yep. It's a lot. That's a lot. Yeah That's where the money is people It's easier. Mm-hmm. Well, I believe resistance The the industry is just kind of move that way Especially like as far as like pricing models and stuff go you look at games like Leo legends You look at games like fortnight and people will just say like, you know, whatever, you know I want the skin.  It's just like it's just over time It just adds up and people don't realize what you're spending thousands, right?   I think that's fine buying skins and stuff all day every day buying power I have a big problem right buying to skip buying to skip and buying to Reduce the time invested. I'm not a fan of that because when you make the grind, right, right So if you're releasing some sort of money to make the grind less I don't trust you to make an awful grind in order to incentivize. I really don't trust anybody to do that Right. Well, it's kind of like how it feels now Honestly with with leveling and BFA, I mean, you can you can buy a boost and I think you can boost to 110, but uh in vanilla when vanilla wow one of the big differences is Leveling doesn't feel nearly as grindy. It's much slower But it doesn't feel nearly as bad as it does in retail. Wow because in retail Wow Like there's there's not really a true like feeling of progression You don't get that true sense of progression that you do in classic and you know burning crusade and so on You know just every time you level you get a talent point you get another level You get another talent point you get to go to your trainer and you get to put some skill Get some skills and it's it's like a series of small wins That's that's what I call it and it's just like you you feel like you're growing you feel like oh I got this I got this and it's it's a lot better than oh I have to get 15 levels and just like Suffer through whatever and it's just like I feel like I'm just wasting my time I feel like I'm not playing the game That's what it is like Let's for me like leveling it into a while like it feels like I'm not playing the game It's like oh, I have to do this before I can play the game and 15 levels then on top of that, you know half your gear You never place good salt heirlooms anyway and then with the scaling zones, you know you increase in power You do more damage, but the monsters always have you know, there's their HP scales up So you never actually have that moment of feeling powerful like you never power spike for a level or two You know, which is one of the most powerful feelings in vanilla. Wow. It feels great. I Remember grinding a fair bit though leveling in vanilla There was a quite a few levels that I had to grind out because there wasn't any quest left Oh, yeah, yeah, there was a thousand. That was a bit of a thing I had to do. I remember having to do that specifically But I haven't leveled in I've got to be honest, I haven't leveled in Wow I tried to level let me put it this way I haven't leveled in Wow since besides going from like new expansion to current cap, right, right? I haven't leveled like that since miss a pandaria. I haven't needed to level a character So they've all my characters have been max level But I did try and make an alliance character not that long ago And I couldn't get to level two like oh my god. No exaggeration. I couldn't I got into I made a Beast and I tried to level I was so bored within the first minute and a half I knew what was waiting for me that I was like I'm using one of my boosts like so I had so many boosts racked I'm not I'm not doing this. This is just awful. So level two beat me I was gonna say I think that most people tend to boost these days Which is so weird considering that you know with patch 4.0 They spent so much time redeveloping the world Mm-hmm players back on the world and then oh you can just boost past it anyway. It's so weird Yeah, I mean I'm I'm I don't know what the point of leveling in WoW is and that's my issue You don't learn anything if you learned something and had some challenge cool That's fine. I one thing that I did do was level a warlock for a video I made and I'd learnt my Voidwalker by crossing into a different part of the map Like discovering that ticks me over and I didn't know they'd done that and that got me very nostalgic for vanilla because I just thought that was utterly Ridiculous. Yeah, what was used to be a momentous moment on your warlock was getting your Voidwalker and what name would it have because a lot of people re-rolled their warlocks Because the name on their Voidwalker wasn't cool enough, right? And I think I did that once as well And then I'd leveled in more recent one is like I discovered some farm and he went and you've learnt what Voidwalker I was like wow You've killed that you've absolutely killed what should be a really Fun part of the character progression which is going and getting your demons as a warlock and bringing them from the nether And this is yours, you know now you just learn it as you walk around Mm-hmm randomly it appears in your spell book and that's something that It blows my mind that they took that away Yeah, it really blows my mind that they took that part of the feeling away a lot of those a lot of those class specific quests I mean there's similar stuff for druids like unlocking your druid shape-shifting forms warriors getting you know whirlwind acts all these really cool iconic Class quests that unlock really cool, you know very unique things have been stripped a lot away from those classes I assume the stance quests are gone as well, right? Yeah stances don't even exist in the game anymore. Yeah, that's true Yeah, so their abilities now.  That was your place to be And all that stuff being gone really creeps me out because it's just that's so sad Yeah, this was really cool, and you just decided to get rid of it for the sake of what what was the great? What was the game right? Is there a game like what's what have we benefited from by doing this? That's the question. I asked myself. Why is this better and it isn't I don't think well You have to wonder like imagine someone has never played WoW before and they're coming to play retail WoW for the first time They buy BFA at GameStop or whatever and they bring it home. They start leveling You have to you have to imagine or wonder how many of them quit because they don't feel any attachment or sense of progression By the time you're level 30 or 35 like you what you have to wonder what that what that initial turnover is Yeah, it's got to be huge right because it was just just looks like a big ladder You're buying a game and probably if your friends have recommended it as well It's one piece of advice we pass out always is don't tell your friends to rush to the level cap It's not worth explore the world. It's a good world out there if you go and explore it But if you're focused on gaining levels God that must look horrific you starting at zero and you've got a hundred and twenty to get and as you said You're only getting something of value every 15 levels Then that stops at what level 100 and then you've got another 20 levels to go where you don't get anything It must look awful, it's like, okay, you bought a game and here's a mountain to walk That's not gonna be that interesting because you're trying to gain levels. Yeah, or you can pay $60 and skip everything So you should probably do that That comes for you now, right? I think it's funny you mentioned that about like telling your friends to Like not telling your friends to like trying to level as fast as they can and whatever Because one of my big issues is back in high school, especially, you know I try to get my friends to play Wow and you know, I played Wow since you know since about release time week after release and I was getting my friends to play they'd be kind of interested and be like, oh sweet So I tell them to play and I would be so focused on like oh, I want you guys to enjoy the game I want you guys to have fun that I would go and I would Go get them like the nicest greens off the auction house I would make sure that everything was like so perfect for them And what would end up happening? Because I was doing all the work of like optimizing their characters for them. They would just get bored and they would quit They felt like they couldn't they weren't even playing and this is something that I didn't really understand I mean I was like, you know 15 16 17 at the time But I was just like oh no no like I'll make it better. I'll make it easier, right? But in reality what was happening is I was taking it away from them I was taking the game experience away from them and they end up getting bored It's funny like how thing and helping is the worst thing you can do for someone, right? Yeah, never helped your friends ever Like rocket mounts and stuff there are people who don't know where anywhere is because their friends just climb aboard And they took them exactly where they need to go kill this you don't learn anything. It's mindless. It's monotonous It's boring. You don't know why you're doing anything They usually tell you to stop reading the quests because we're just gonna get through the levels, right? They're just trying to zerg the ways up to the level so it's like no don't read that look I'll just take you to where to go We're doing this dungeon now. We're doing this and then they go 120 or whatever. They just leave you You know like I don't know where anything is. I don't know why we did any of this stuff. Yeah, exactly So it's just it's really funny how that all kind of pans out When did you really feel like When do you really feel like the game started changing for you like in terms of you know We're talking about this whole like the concept of class fantasy and you know You're doing your warlock quest as a palette and you've got your auras you've got your seals for me personally And I think a lot of people feel this way But I think cataclysm was like a really big like just shot to the gut for me And I was just like what am I playing? Oh? Really? Yeah, I really like to cataclysm freely. Yeah, I don't get there It might be just it all while comes down to the circles you play him right? because Depending on who you're playing with your perspective is so different like the burning crusade was great for me So good because I was in a raid guild at the start. There's the first, you know I started TBC in a very good raid guild And I had people who were hungry and thirsty to play and to progress and do all that kind of stuff So I got to do all of the burning crusade content from the get-go And then I was talking to a friend of mine novel Who hated the burning crusade? I said why and he's I was like it was so good We got to that we had shat holes runs we had all these things going on outside of raids We got this massive map of things to get done. Why did you hate it? It's like because I couldn't do any of that stuff like I didn't have the support structure in place To make it work So for me it was all stuff that everybody else was doing and I couldn't be a part of and I ended up running cars I'm like eight million times, you know and For me Rath that Rath was a big turning point because they made a lot of things very easy in the PvE world And that's when I was at my mega nerdiest like proper pop, you know spot-popping nerd and They made like threat easier and I was a tank and I was like, oh Like all the plebs play, you know, I was that kind of attitude Took a lot of the challenge away from my hands as to what I was doing I'm Mr. Pandaria also I did that video that we talked about model seems to be going in a very weird direction and I Gradually things have gotten a little worse and then got better in Legion kind of and then obviously where we are now The best state of the game ever right now, so it's all time best. We shall not speak its name But for me, I noticed it going away from what I really which is the very hardcore Mega try hard styling wrath and I'm not saying it was a bad thing, but that's what it started changing for me It was way back then but I still Relatively enjoyed later Rath like the launch of Rath was a disaster for a raider standpoint No, next was a joke Malagos was a joke.  Yeah, that's right. Yeah And then it was like downhill again. It was like, whoa What is what is going on here? Who these players because until that point I've been shielded from the the worst plays of the game and LFD really opened that door and I was like, oh what is going on? And that did not do well for what was not a very nice mic at that point. I wasn't a very nice guy then certainly game You know, I made no bones about it and That's where it started to really Change because I was like, oh my god like now I'm actively carrying people if I want to do this content and things like that But then again, I could always move back into where I preferred and Yeah, it's definitely Rath for me is what I noticed it was changing for me. Yeah Yeah, it's funny because if you ask a lot of people today, they look back on Rath very fondly But at the time the forums MMO champion like Everybody hated Rath I remember and Rath actually was the first time and then you mentioned at the start of Rath It's the first time where I feel like I bet I actually beat the game because up until then I hadn't really rated I ended I rated at the very end of TBC I was still young learning the game stuff like that and I had heard about this like epic You know thing that's rating and it's you know You join all these people and you do this crazy stuff and it's uber hard And then he stepped into Naxx and you clear it right away and you're just like that was rating That was terrible and terrible and terrible decision. I mean up until then I'm you played It's called neocron you said Yeah, neocron with an neocron Yeah, I mean I came from RuneScape and Ultima online and like if you told me at the time You're gonna beat RuneScape.  Yeah, a lot of people don't know that I addressed it video once is like people think that just means you started and Which is not what it meant It meant the people who started in Rath and didn't realize how easy they had it and would noticeably very Much worse than a lot of the people around the vanilla in CBC I remember really hardcore bullying and not just myself, you know, I'm not the only one that did it Anyone that didn't have champion of the Nari or hand of a doll. They were a Rathbaby.  Go back For me my my Rath experience So I played at the very beginning of Rath. I had a ton of fun in the Rath pre-patch I played a Rath Paladin, so of course I did So that a ton of fun in the pre-patch started playing and I got to about level 75 I think before I quit just a lot of my friends had quit and I wasn't really feeling it So it was just like I don't know. I just I quit for a while and I came back I think it was my senior year in high school. I came back towards the end of the expansion and Whenever I came back, you know because of gear score. I didn't have any gear because I didn't have any achievements I ended up not being able to get into anything. So like for me personally, I do think like Rath Like from from like a system standpoint with LFD and all this stuff Like I'm not a fan of a lot of stuff that was introduced then But from a class fantasy standpoint I still like felt like I was playing a Paladin for the most part. The big thing for me with cataclysm is And and maybe this is specific to Paladins, but whenever they swap the seals and the judgments and the Well, I guess you still have judgment But like the seals and the auras and the judgment system work differently Like that that switching that and going to holy power it just like totally like mess with my head And I just felt like I didn't even play like I wasn't even playing a Paladin anymore I Don't know and then we saw that system now, and it's gotten better to me But that was just kind of like from a class fantasy perspective. I Was really not happy with that as a Paladin What kind of came out? Yeah when cataclysm out. Is that when you have the three judgments? Rath you had I actually didn't like this either Rath. You had three judgments I didn't I didn't like that where you had judgment of justice just moves them in judgment of light But I liked that whenever I casted a seal I like it would it would load up a certain effect on the judgment and then it would apply that effect I thought that was cool I always really like that and then technically it was better in wrath. You did more damage and you know your class is more effective I just didn't like it as much Yeah, I also think that's Paladin specific, but I think something it applied to everyone when cataclysm out You know, this is the world of Warcraft and for six or seven years of vanilla TBC wrath People have been engaging with vanilla or og Azeroth You know, it was a big part of the life at that point and when cataclysm out the world that they had built memories in and fill and Made friends in and maybe you found a girlfriend a like whatever, you know all these memories you had Were just clean slated new world and I think that really alienated a lot of people when cataclysm out Yeah, I never thought so I thought it brought life back to the world that we'd kind of abundant I think whenever whenever cataclysm out I remember there being a lot of hype behind oh updated world updated textures like oh This is cool. Like deathwing came and just like ripped everything apart But I think in hindsight when we look at it now It's kind of like man like we've been in this world longer than we were in the original world If you've been playing retail while the whole time, right?  It's I don't know just everything seems like so trivialized now and I think that's one of the reasons people are so excited for classic is I Think I think classic has to there's two forms of excitement about classic There's one because people actually enjoyed the design of the game like me personally like I think vanilla while was designed really really really well Like I thought I thought that game was great. I also think there's a nostalgia There's a there is a nostalgia factor and while that works for some people I don't think I Don't think a lot of the people who've been wanting vanilla while for a lot of years are Focused entirely on nostalgia. They like the game for the game the actually the game itself is actually good but There is gonna be a lot of people who try out classic initially just to be like Oh, wow, like we're back in this in this old world again and seeing how everything turns out, you know Yeah, the launch is gonna be so interesting and I hope it doesn't turn into a meme Yeah, it could do I really could if it's One of them people got put the money where the mouth is we've been asking for it I was so happy when it was announced. So I was like those guys fought hard Right those guys fought long and hard and relentlessly like some sort of political movements to get this thing done Then they had it thrown in their face with the you think you do but you don't Which I think held some weight at the time. I don't think he thought he was that wrong Factually he wasn't I think factually he wasn't I think a lot of people I mean even the story is right 80% of the people that tried Noss left So I think factually he wasn't wrong, but the way he said it and the attitude Yeah, he came across wrong, but I don't think he was that wrong in a lot of people's cases I think he knew what he was saying But then they said, you know, we're gonna do the vanilla and people lost their mind But now we're seeing because we were I was laughing before we started so it's catch up on exactly where the information was to make sure I was ready and There's still a war still each other's throats about what exactly they want from classic And this is gonna be the problem when it starts is so many people are gonna try it It's gonna be insane and they're gonna be able to post these wonderful numbers about people trying this I have no doubt that's going it's so many people are gonna try it Mm-hmm, and then the reality is gonna come back and the nostalgia guys are gonna go Oh, yeah, I forgot about that like a we looting for instance people are gonna be like, oh You know And then the mobs are gonna start murdering them horror the majors are gonna have to stop and drink and eat after you know Every couple of packs or whatever and that's gonna happen It's a people who aren't prepared for it. That's all a lot of people who aren't prepared for I'm prepared for it I'm fine with it. I know what I'm gonna be doing and Then the drop-off is gonna be pretty significant, but let's hope the guys who fought hard for this actually Turn up and stay and don't go, but I've got a private server and it's free, you know and I'm okay there I've already got a character because we saw when thing happened with Nost when that all went to went sits up is People were more angry That they've lost their characters Like that became pretty apparent pretty quickly is that although just Nost was putting out those letters And they were fighting the good fight and they were doing their thing Ultimately the people who really got loud and complaining about it weren't actually interested in the cause or whatever They wanted their characters back and that's all they really cared about like that was a meme at the time Remember reading on their forums Well, it's surprising. Well, here's the thing. I mean, it's actually I don't know like I believe it's been the The past couple of years where we've seen this phenomenon like really rise up and it's it's the meme of the fresh servers So I want to hear your thoughts on this preach. This is really interesting Basically how private servers have been working is they go all the way through and recently they've they've been able to script Nax and then once people complete Nax a couple months later they launch a fresh server and Ironically enough you would think that the people that have just completed Nax would want to stay on their characters But people are actually willing to abandon their full Nax tier 3 characters to start on a fresh server Brand new from zero and abandon all that progress. What do you think about that? What numbers are we talking? Give me some context. I mean so for example Let's say 10,000 people play on this server and that same server providers launching another server and then you'll find like 9,000 are playing the fresh server and only 1,000 stay on the original server. It's like that crazy of a distribution Yeah, it always Like seasons almost almost like yeah, people are changing it like seasons. What do you see how quickly they can do it again? Is that the idea behind? I Mean it's I don't know it does have an appeal like I do it too, right? But like it's like playing on a fresh server, you know competing again with everybody again to level the fastest maybe playing a new class You know trying to be in the upper echelon of players this time around Everyone's got their own goals, but I I I think the biggest appeal of classical over in a while It was the community aspect and I I personally feel like That community aspect is shining its brightest in the first maybe month or two People are leveling they're working together. They're forming guilds are forming connections They're doing dungeons. They're working to get into molten core very fast I feel like that is when the community is at its peak I think the big problem with the with the whole fresh meme is The reason why fresh happens is because often times There's these private servers that have been like, you know They're trying to make a new server for profit and this and that and the problem is is, you know People want that experience that the stay safe was talking about so they end up being like, okay Well, everybody's gonna go play there, you know, the server is gonna die They just assume and then that just adds to The people that are already gonna leave anyway, and then it ends up being like a whole thing So a lot of people have talked about this like what are they gonna do when classic like goes through a whole cycle and You know, we've talked about it before like, you know, if they want to release a fresh or whatever The biggest problem with fresh servers At least in the private server scene The biggest problem was because servers were trying to like compete with each other for whatever reason, right? You know, maybe monetary gain or whatever They Would release halfway through the lifespan of another server So what would happen was you would get to aq and then the server likes tries to die Or you would get to next and you know, your server went from like 10,000 population like 2000 people finish and as soon as they finished Boom, we cleared we killed kt ones and we'd go now That hasn't something that has historically happened time and time again because next scripting on private servers hasn't been good But um That's like the trend, right? Where you know, it's aq is about to come out. Okay time to start over We're gonna go play play up to bwl patch again and then start over again And I think one of the things that i'm excited about with classic Is I do think that they should do the fresh server thing, but I don't think it should happen sooner than Like maybe six months after nax comes out. I think that was the original timeline for vanilla like six at least six months you know, I think that's in 2018 In current year, I think that's one of the things where People know enough now they've gotten better at the game enough to the point where Six months should be plenty of time to be able to Experience nax before a new server comes out I don't think they should do a reset But I think that they should release a new a new set of servers where people can choose to to level up there And maybe potentially merge the remaining 1.12 servers into like take a take like clusters of them and then merge them together Based on like population loss or whatever There are a couple of questions on that then Six months. So are we basing this on them releasing everything when it starts? Hell, no, dude. Hopefully there's no way they're doing that, right? Ultimately when nax is out and is also this just a stem and my second question would be Is this just a stem fatigue because Once nax is done the obvious question will then become at some point inevitably We want more stuff to do There's no way that question won't come up from a few people and also people go Well, that's not classic But we've seen already the people who have some interest in this are already asking for changes and at some point They will be asking what's next for me Is that the idea here is to try and stem that and say well The best thing to do is actually is to you've learned a lot in season one. Let's go in season two Let's go season three and see what we can develop that way Yeah, I mean I think I think ideally they should relaunch Another vanilla server a new one. Otherwise, we're back where we are right now where no one has a fresh Or or starting a vanilla server to play on I think also they should move the first server on the tbc So they're catering to both those crowds that want to progress their character further And also new players that would like to come in and they missed it the first time maybe What do you think about tbc preach? Do you think they would do it? um I would prefer tbc over vanilla That's my state of it. Um I mean, are we talking about a staggered system? Is this kind of ideal that some of you want which is because I I'm not no like I haven't been part of the inner circle the classic stuff Um, like you want a server that's currently in classic another one that's coming in tbc another one's coming in raffin It kind of staggers along You know in this circular fashion of progression where you keep going up and where does that end? Does it ultimately end back at legion? Uh with and then you've got like I don't know eight how many expansions have there been Like eight different servers running different versions of wow and how does that cannibalize each other if one's vanilla server Can cannibalize in itself as you just said then when it's going fresh, you know That tends to cannibalize the entire server of one how thinly are we going to spread the player base that's interested in nostalgic? Is that player base there and then you end up with really sort of Low ones It's a dangerous and I'm sure these are what they talked about in turn is like if we start this where do we end this Yeah, yeah, that's gotta have been the big reason not to go ahead with it straight away I think so I don't think it was anything mean or nasty. They're not like Ha ha ha dive They were just like, okay, we if we start this where does it end? Because we're starting somewhere that we obviously know the end is 12 years long Do we want to do that? Is that beneficial? Right? I do I don't know the answer I do think once they offer a fresh vanilla server like the first iteration the first classic servers They've sort of opened pandora's box so to speak. They can't ever stop offering vanilla servers Otherwise, we're back where we are right now where the only option is to play on a private server, right? Yeah, I think yeah, I think there's that Uh, I I think a lot of people want the original three a lot of people want to go through vanilla burning crusade and wrath again I think that they should Now my my theory on what I would like to see them do. I don't know if they should do this actually But but this is this is what I would like to see I think they should just fork it a whole ton and it's like well Doesn't that split up the community or the player base or whatever and I'm like well Sure, but there's gonna be enough people playing to where you at least have enough people on You know x amount of servers playing to where it's still It's still gonna be just fine and I think they should go Traditional progression, you know with a with a vanilla server and then at the end of that vanilla server One of the first set of servers comes out you You have another set of burning crusade servers come out where you can copy your character Over to that over to a burning crusade server The reason why I say you should copy your character over instead of like starting from scratch or or progressing the original server Is because if you start from scratch, you're gonna have huge huge population imbalance on the horde side just I mean just from a Playability standpoint like a horde is honestly just like better in burning crusade um And people have seen that on private servers like people have tried to open up burning crusade private servers And it's just like massive like 80 to 20 population imbalance in favor of horde So if you're starting with your original 60 character on that burning crusade server, that doesn't stop you from re-rolling But it de-incentivizes re-rolling a little bit by okay. Well, I'm already level 60 So there's that And then I don't think you should necessarily progress the original server because a lot of people Might just want to play 112 forever. All right. They might just want to play 112 forever. So If they do want to progress the original server, then I think they should make Some 1.12 servers that are basically just like holding servers where anybody who has a character up to 1.12 Can transfer on to that server and there could be a community of people who choose to just play 1.12 forever I also think and No, I was going to say can you just imagine what's going on at blizzard hq right now like the conversations they're having about this stuff Oh, yeah, I mean, it's probably so much like should we do this? We do that like is this going to be worth it like are we going to lose money if we do this like There's so many moving parts But like on top of that you release another fresh vanilla server like stay safe said and then Is the question of post-nax content kind of in the style of osrs like that question comes up too So it's like what do you like what do you want to do? I mean, it's there ends up being like potentially like four different forks in there, but um I Right, they're gonna have to wait and see like planning for this stuff You could say we could go these nine million different routes. We could do that But ultimately we need to wait and see how many people actually do this thing We are putting out money wet our mouth saying all right. Here you go Show us that you actually care about this thing and make it work Before we then start saying right we're going to do this this and this and this afterwards Because they do have some time to play with depending on how slowly they bring in patches and content I think at their side, it's more of a trial To see maybe is this a profitable way to go. Is this something we want to do Uh, do we want to invest more resources in this? But we're going to have to wait to see how many people actually do this like for real while paying money to do it Um, which is going to be the interesting bit for them. I'm sure they're going to watch and see Okay, let's see what's happening six months later There's there's the obvious off Now, where is it leveling out? What's our people going to be interested? I don't know. Do you guys what do you guys expect numbers? Why is he I mean you've been making a lot of assumptions it like do you expect this to be huge? I think it'll be huge, but I do want to say real quick I think that there are a lot of people who have heard about classic vanilla. Oh, it's going to be cool But you know my favorite was burning crusade or my favorite was wrath So I think every time they move on to a new to a new version tbc or wrath or whatever They will be bringing new people in that perhaps weren't interested in the previous version Vanilla or tbc. Oh, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, it's true.  I think that's a you know That's a big ask then I come back and check it out um I hope I just I I just don't want it to be a meme like I said before I don't want it to be like a big thing And the people like I can't be asked and then like it just drops down to something useless and everyone's left like Yeah, you know, we try our best all the complaints get so loud because they do listen when people go crazy I'm one of these guys who aren't the guys who uh, you're hoping for in the classic service like myself It was like, I know what I'm getting into. I'm aware of what the problems are and I'm aware of what the good things are But if they start logging in and everybody's a warrior rogue You know, like I've seen I saw some raid logs I did some checking on some classic server raid logs and they were like all warriors and rogues And they're a couple of mages I mean everybody went to because they know they're going to be great. That's it They know before we even start they're going to be awesome So why not roll that class right? Why not be that way? Um I hope those guys don't just drift off and find a miserable experience and then start screaming because those guys Are loud and blizzard has to take notice. I hope they do the osrs. Well, they let people vote But even then they're going to be people angry, right? Yeah, I mean there's going to be a lot of like people voting for just like absurd things too That's the way to see it now, don't you? Yeah Why not make balance just perfect? It's like, well, that's a big ask man. That changes a lot of how vanilla works That's not going to be the thing and we talked about phasing earlier because it was Ian said, uh What was the wording? Yeah, we don't want to recreate Oh, we don't want the classic launch experience. Now that to me could either mean they're going to make a lot of servers and then they'll urge them Of phasing might be something they're considering to make sure performance is good and that would be that Yeah, yeah Ian also said, you know, we know vanilla means vanilla means the rough edges and Inconveniences, but we know vanilla means vanilla. So in my mind sort of A rough launch with a lot of people clogged up zones. We were talking about the server launch Um, I think that's just kind of a rough edge, you know, that'll last a couple days. You get through it and then it's all good Yeah, I would agree I agree with stacy But the one thing that makes me question is that they explicitly pointed out the launch experience and like that's the scary part like I'm sure you know preach. Uh phasing is not something that vanilla people typically like very much even like dude. Nobody likes phasing People like I can't see people in my own guild. It is utterly insane. Yeah. Yeah, utterly insane I'm here. So am I Yeah, it's like not only on the same server. We're in the same guild. Let me see Absolutely madness. Absolutely madness. I will take the the performance hit Because I loved going into wine forage. My pc started going. No, stop. Stop Because it was like, this is the whole world. This is why this is happening This is why this is happening. There's so many people around all doing stuff, you know I thought that was part that is part of the fun for me for vanilla And also you want the people who are the champions of the server To be recognized because that's what makes the server community and you also want the people who get australian Because they're terrible people That's part of the community like it or not that it's part of it the guy who scams your enchanting mats You want to know about that guy? Yeah, and that's the guy. There he is And there's that guy from that guild, right?  I mean, you never know, right? But that's I know people for classic who are excited about being an enchanter They don't care about the rays don't care about anything else. They are Dying to stand in iron forge and do people's interest They cannot wait for it and that's awesome because the game doesn't cater to those guys anymore profession guys And uh, I know they're saying it's like I just want to be there all day And sort people's in I will be the trustworthy enchanter on the server that's what I want to be And that's what they're hyped for and that's so cool So so cool Yeah, absolutely and to go back to your original question preach about how many people do we think we'll We'll do this thing The way I see it is is three big conditions have to be met if we assume that they link the subscriptions And I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit later Between retail and classic wow if we assume that no like Very negative changes are made to the game Hopefully because that would cause a big uproar in the community But let's assume no changes are made and then number three Let's assume bfa continues on its same trajectory as it is now I think stay safe set it on all craft the other week he thinks it's going to uh It's going to be bigger than retail and I think if all three of those conditions are met I would I would definitely throw in the towel with him Um, especially when you you know as fan refer to two types of people that are interested in classic I would add a third type and that is those that have never played but are curious And that that number grows every single day that bfa is not doing well that number grows And if it continues on this trajectory more and more people are going to be curious Okay, this classic thing that we dismissed last year, you know, it's sounding interesting right now. Let's check it out Yep, I I totally agree with that. I think bfa has done all the favors All the favors in the world which I kind of just to see how this um The demo is going to go because I have it and I'm interested to see what the reaction is to it because I think in a way I I I have talked about this before but not here um, is that the demo Seems pointless to some like what are we demoing this? But in actuality, it's a really great way of preparing people who are curious for exactly what they're getting into So they don't walk into a No, like wait, see you mean you you have the demo right now. No, he meant he has a person That's saying that he's playing it now That's sick. I'm just going into the spot again But no, I I think it's really good if it gets in front of we if you know between us We can get it in front of a lot of a lot of people is to say, okay This is what you need to be ready for and they get a warm up and a taste Of what exactly is going to happen instead of day one they walk into it and everybody's dying horribly And fall into pieces. I think that's I think it's a really good idea I think the demo is very clever. I thought it was a really good idea just to Break that barrier I think if classic would have just come out it could have been a big big disaster for a lot of people But if we stream it and we have videos out and people are making content on it and saying This is what you're getting and this is the stuff and this is how you deal with it Because we didn't have that back in vanilla, right? So I've seen I checked the classic reddit It's full of guides like people are already like this is what you need to be doing well a big thing with those guides too a lot of stuff that's coming out like more recently is like There's there's stuff that's different on private servers than there was in retail vanilla wow And we don't know exactly what we're going to get in classic and if it matches accurately What vanilla was 100 there's going to be a lot of things in these guides And I've talked about this before a lot of these guys are coming out and it's you know Maybe people didn't play like actual vanilla or like they didn't they didn't have like the level of expertise They had did we just lose tips? There we go Um, no he's back. He's back. Uh, but they didn't they didn't really understand the game quite quite as well as they do now Uh, which is which is understandable But like a lot of the information that they've filled in everything that they know now is with like private server stuff So it was like private server bugs and just errors and scripting and stuff like that just like looking at a lot of guides Like that's something that I've noticed and I think I think people are going to learn stuff even in classic because I mean oh I thought it worked like this but on the private server it was like this I guess that was wrong and it's actually supposed to work like this and then you're you're gonna have to play off of that Yeah I wonderful have people saying well, the private server's had a right and classic Is put the raids up and stuff those add-ons we didn't have a vanilla Like I just didn't work in my vanilla. I tell you that now like range checkers on healing specifically Right. I was either all through vanilla. I would have loved a range checker on my unit frames That would have been a very big deal, but we didn't have that. Yeah, so I wonder if they got it How they're going to work out that is the cursive going to be a thing is the cursive was a thing for a really long time How are they going to How are they going to manage that are they going to let people use the private server add-ons because they weren't part of the experience and they do change the experience I want to know how they're going to do that, but I think it still is a really great idea to have a demo and show people what they're going to do Especially early levels where they're going to get So hard they're going to be hammered into the ground Oh People are going to die at like level three.  You pulled too many of them. You're just dead because you got three of them on you Yeah I don't know how to say this but I feel like with a lot of stuff you do in retail Wow, if you're doing a dungeon or LFR or if you're leveling you can kind of like be paying attention to netflix And you can be watching a video on your second monitor reading a book or doing homework, right? But in vanilla wow Oftentimes you really have to just play the game and I don't I'm not saying it's bad either the game actually It it commands your attention, but it also feels good because it's it's very fun and rewarding at the same time Yeah, yeah, you want the game to do that, right? Yeah, exactly exactly Yeah, a big part about the new raid in 8.1 Uh that I brought up is that the fights were engaging and kept me interested I actually said specifically it stops me checking spotify in netflix Because some of them that do you know there's some raid bosses and stuff and that ratings my thing is like This is boring for like a minute and a half like nothing's happening at all And I don't have to watch and I can watch tv I can watch something else While I'm playing which isn't why am I here? I could just be watching tv, you know what I mean, right? But they the new raid does appear to be doing that which is great And but you're right vanilla does it well because suddenly that mob that's patrolling off in the distance He looked fine now. He sees you and that's that's the end of your game. You better start running You better stick get get to stepping on that warrior because there's no victory rush, baby It's game over you better battle shot you made the victory Yeah But I say there's a lot of stuff that won't come back though even from the nostalgic side Like I had my favorite memories of vanilla Are very easy. I remember them as clear as clear as today the first time I watched into stormland is one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had Like when I walked into that area and the music started playing across that bridge with all the statues I'd never seen anything like that in any video Blew my mind And the same as walking into west fall for the first time and the entire like tundra shifted You know, it all became yellow and bright and boy from the green who had just had That kind of stuff Won't ever happen again because again, we know too much about the game I've experienced it a billion times now. I don't know whether people are expecting to have that feeling back So I don't think they're gonna get that So from my experience You know, and I'm not a long time private server player. I played like one fresh server But whenever I came back to the game It's it's not the same exact experience But it's a different experience and like I do think for me personally like playing on a private server now It feels kind of empty because you know classic is coming So it's just like one of those things where it's like, I mean, what what am I going to do? Like how far am I going to get before classic comes out or we get some sort of beta testing period or whatever but Whenever I I I revisited vanilla for the first time in however many years it was one of the things where I was like There was a little bit of nostalgia there but Just because it wasn't the same exact experience It was a different experience that was very very good as well And I mean, there's a lot of people like, you know, like tips mentioned to there's people who are curious about vanilla who You know, they maybe didn't get a chance to play and I do think that Just because it's not going to be the same exact experience It's going to be a very enjoyable experience regardless and I mean just imagine if you could go back like 15 years, right? Imagine if you you had all the knowledge you have about any subject And then you could go back 15 years in time and then apply what you know now back then And I think that's something that for me like that's how I felt with like my palette and stuff and you know One of our played vanilla. It's like well what I remember a lot of this stuff and like I learned it over time But now I can go back to the beginning and start from scratch and Uh, I don't know. I mean that was that was a really really awesome experience for me And then even then I was still learning stuff And like I said earlier, that's where you kind of get the discrepancy between Is this a private server thing or is this a classic thing? Like why did I not know this back then was I did I just not know or is this something specific to private servers? So I think there's a lot of different factors there What do you think it's going to grab people the curious people because those are going to make or break it maybe Is if you can grab people who'd never had that experience like you said they never got to play it then What do you think is it's going to grab them this time around like you already mentioned it?  This world is just as much alive as I am It just the itches that that bfa and modern wow scratches are very different Then than the itches that that vanilla scratches And I think it sometimes it's unfair to compare the two games because they're so different But they appeal to so many different senses that it's those different senses that are finally going to be Molified for the first time in years. That's what's going to bring people back in my opinion I think you're right like I think if you're a mythic raider in in retail wow And you're looking for the most mechanically challenging gameplay experience You might be bored with vanilla wow like honestly retail wow might be the game for you But I think for a vast majority of players, you know, sort of the humble adventurer You know incremental power increase the interaction you have with other players in the world around you the immersion The the character identity you have in vanilla wow I think that's really going to hit home with a lot of people because that's an experience that Just frankly a lot of a lot of retail players haven't had for eight years a decade MMO players man One's the last time you had an mmo that you could really sink your teeth into That felt like an rpg where the world was alive and everything you just said incremental power gains It's the the entire genre has been absent of that for many years Mm-hmm Yeah, I think you might be right in the early days. They're going to hit the grind What is the grind start 30? Yeah, for me whenever whenever I think on it I'm trying to think I remember there's a stretch while leveling That I really did not enjoy as much as the other I think it's like 40 to 50 range Was pretty annoying for me the 40 to 50 range is kind of annoying for me I don't I don't like that one because it's like you kind of start getting you start getting out of the I just feel like it's kind of a dead spot for me personally Uh, also that's because I put the plague lands on such a pedestal Right because you're going from like duskwood and stv and all this stuff and it's like All this craziness is going on into arathi highlands and then You go to the plague lands and I think the plague lands as a paladin again Like I love the rp. I love the holy warrior and I'm cleansing undead. I'm just smiting people. I think it's great um So, I don't know. Maybe it's because I hyped that up so much. It feels like a dead point for me personally Uh, somewhere somewhere in the 40 to 50 range But that's kind of that's probably the most grindy Portion of time for me personally. I remember I remember kept getting to I remember my friend grounded zulfurak Hardcore as soon as he hit the zulfurak. Is that a 45? Yeah, and I didn't I was I'm always been playing Like I can't help it like if it's just grinding a dungeon for experience. I'm not interested right um But if I have five quests, that's really fishing me some of my time And I remember I got one full level from doing the zf quest I think you get some 45 to 46 like straight away Uh, and then ran out of quests So much about 47 before you get to go on to ungoro. I actually you've brought it back for me This is what I was worried about. You're Scientology me.  They're happy nightmares. They're happy nightmares. They're not I remember grinding a raps of brains for hours. We wouldn't have any of these brats as a brainless. It makes no sense. Um The best of the zebras Yeah, no, I was just saying there are some really horrible fights. I hope don't catch too many people It's bound to catch some people where it does run dry. Um, yeah, and it's nothing nothing Not everything is for everyone, right? So that's that's for sure No, mm-hmm. I just don't want people to ruin it for you guys more than anything Right, that's my concern with it more than anything. Like I'm happy. It's here. I always have never been against it I didn't understand the rage about it to be honest. I found it funny I never really got the rage It's you know, it's no different. So I look at classic is like a just a different mml like final fantasy 14 it's just a different game like like say you can't compare modern wow to classic that's so different They might have to say class names. I agree. Yeah have sort of a million other games that exist, right? Right. Uh, so it never was an issue for me But they've I I just don't want them to spoil it That's my biggest worry with the whole thing because I know what you guys Certainly in terms of like this immersion to my class and my character and I actually found leveling so bad In vanilla. I hated the level. You didn't like it. Okay. Oh, no. Um, I found it Very long than tedious. Okay, especially when I did have to grind out entire levels on mobs Uh, which is which is I did from like 59 to 60. I had to do that and around 30 to 31 I ended up grinding Which was relatively normal back then, you know grinding was part of most of them. I was it wasn't a big deal So so what what would you say is your favorite experience in wow ever your favorite time period or activity you did? um TBC But if we're looking at classic Like more directly, I had some of my best not just wow moments, but gaming moments in classic. Wow Um seeing ragnaros for the first time and he was bugged. It was amazing Uh, I don't know if you guys remember when ragnaros used to pop out and then disappeared to pop out again So I had heard about ragnaros. I had heard about it And I remember specifically asking people who would fought ragnaros was like, have you fought ragnaros? He was like, yeah, like it was nothing 40 people is like, yeah, so like what is it like being in there with 40 people? It's like It's like being in a cave with 40 people. I don't know what to tell you He was very blasé about the whole thing and I was like, my god, you're a raider and looking at him like like He was god or something and uh, and I said so when you're in the room with ragnaros How does it happen? I thought the guy in ragnaros comes out.  I was like, well It's not the dream I was hoping it would be uh, he was booked like that for months. I believe I think you 12 months in that book. Um But it's still a great moment Still a wonderful moment being there for the the anchorage gates opening was fantastic Love that despite the lag and watching all these big raid guilds run right past all those carrage mops Because I expected to be side by side with the champions of the server like we talked about before Uh, I expected to be stood side by side sword and shield lol rp With these monsters gamers as far as I consider them at the time We were about to raid aq and the the gong was rung Uh, in fact, the guy who's gonna ring the gong got ganked Just The guy who rang our gong was called raffaeron. I still remember his name. This is how much of a big moment It was in vanilla. I remember the guy's name like 13 years later and I'd never played with him Never spoke to him in my life But he was called raffaeron a priest and he went to bang it and my guild master killed him Guy from liverpool, which is makes sense to a lot of uk guys Uh killed him on his thunder fury rogue And then he got resed and then he went he banged the gong and all the gates open and everything came out Big things and I watched all these big raid guilds are going to do all for us Just walk right past everything straight into the raid and let all these mobs gank us noobs They just run straight into the raid didn't care about it. We all got hammered into the ground Wonderful moment. Oh, it was great.  They're not interested in what happens to us outside here And it was very cool. It was a very cool moment And I've never experienced much like that in a while since because they don't run those kind of events Did you know was there any drama surrounding your guy's uh gone ringing that you know about? Um No, because we knew uh the guy the the reason I remember the guy's name raff Is he was very into being um a face of the community? I think is a way of putting it everything was like He definitely saw himself as like a daddy of the server, but he was alliance and I'm not I could tell tell you on the hot side everyone thought he was a bit of a dick So no one really cared and actually every time he made he made these long forum posts and everyone laughed at him On our side anyway, uh, but no we helped them Uh do it because we knew they would try extra hard And what was really wanted to get involved like we did a little bit, but the um We didn't throw fat. I know my guild didn't throw Low level characters to give us materials and things like that Uh, so no not much drama other than the ganking the ganking was famous Because he was uh the the guy who did it.  He was an absolute I played with him.  It was like a walk To find the gong and all this and we were all supposed to be like, oh my god But we were laughing It's great, but also little moments I think it's worth mentioning these because I've shown I have a video of one of them is When guilds were going to do big events Generally not just for rp reasons But because it was cooler those guilds, which you rarely ever saw you see one or two members in ironfoil Oh my god, that's you know, that's that guild that you heard about because they've done like before horsemen or something Um, if they were going to get thunder fury and kill thunder and they wouldn't fly to sylphus They go to somewhere like Gadgetzan and they ride together And being out in the open world. I remember being in tenaris When this guild on mounts, which was a big deal like epic mounts were a big deal in vanilla Seeing them streaming across the sands That was a big moment, uh, which I've never seen any expansion is badass since flying mounts came in it never happens But to see these 40 or 45 guys Streaming across the sand in all this epic gear It was all enchanted and shiny because most of your stuff was dull and broken while you were leveling, you know Seeing all that happened was like I want to be a part of that That's where I want to be. I don't want to be here. I want to do that And uh, those are the memories that really inspire me is like seeing, you know guilds doing that kind of thing These big outdoor activities because we there isn't really any now will bosses or things like Um, so I really miss on yeah, I remember there's all kinds of like So I was on illidan, uh before I transferred to kel'thuzad at the It was after the next patch. I think so it was towards the end of vanilla. I transferred to kel'thuzad But illidan was Like famous for the amount of drama and just random bull crap that was happening on the server They even ran there somebody ran their own forum for the server called illidrama. It was illidrama.com So just all kinds of drama everything was up on the boards there And I remember there was always something huge like there's you had I'm trying to think you had you had dye on the alliance death's imperial entourage They had this guild leader's name was gray rage and there was like a gray rage sound board that somebody made because somebody on the other Guild was like in their vent server for some reason and just like I mean just record it Just a bunch of the stuff that he would say and it was hilarious and I've been looking forever for the gray rage sound board I can't find anywhere, but it was like I think team ice Um There's a I mean it was great There was there was so much competition going on on that server and I remember kind of looking back at the aq event And they had planned out a certain time to ring the gong so that whoever had The the question done everybody could go in and kind of ring the gong and everybody could get their scarab lord whatever Yeah If I remember correctly, this is so long ago. I'm trying to remember this the right way But I'm pretty sure it was Piccolo and z extreme I remember these two guys on the server who went and rung the gong or rang the gong early Like like six hours early or something like that or maybe it was 12 hours early something like that And they didn't tell anybody so they just did it and a ton of people got screwed out of their mounts And like it was just this whole thing There was this whole beef and just the kind of stuff that would happen like that in vanilla where you could Affect other people so negatively in such a big way. I don't know. It's it's it makes for good stories now It's crazy how I think about that My friend did it recently to a server by a pure accident He moved to a server that hadn't had a coupons get them out. They had these guys have these little communities Of people who were all there to get scarab lord. Anyway, my greek friend Didn't check in with these communities. He just was like, okay, but as a server where it's not open yet transferred there Went randomly to check it in the middle of the night. Sorry could bang it. Sorry. Just was like banged it And then a few hours later. He thought about a bit better and then he went on the forums and said, oh, by the way so Sorry and left And they loads of people and they've been there for weeks waiting for everybody to catch up to make sure they could do it He purely by accident. He did it His quality still flat Yeah, it's awesome Can you still get scarab lord or not? Obviously not scarab, but can you still do they still roll out fresh servers where you can open the gates or now? I have no idea. I think this was in uh Maybe that was kato when he did that and something around those times. It was a while ago. Anyway, it was a while ago It's still a great moment There was a lot of a lot of the scarab lords you see today were from wrath fresh servers when wrath came out They needed a bunch of more servers. Um There's not many vanilla scarab lords around anymore. A lot of them are wrath boys. Mm-hmm rat babies These wrath babies infecting us again What have you guys found like uh, so you raided on classic privacy Uh, what's the problem with naks out of curiosity more than anything just everything else they've got wired up correctly But that's not so much. There's there's such Little documentation like proper documentation on the raids and how everything went like most of stuff out there on naks Is is over wrath of lich king stuff So like people don't know about like boss values and like how does this work here? How does that work there like health resistance values resistance values? I think are probably pretty screwed up in naks We've talked about that before. Um But yeah, there's all kinds of stuff and even even on the earlier fights like I know on one one private server Like in blackwing lair They have the the nefarion has a paladin classical or the class calls right and specifically the paladin class call What it does is it makes all the palins in the raid cast blessing protection on nefarion So what you could do on the private server is it would put a buff on you The class call was a buff not even a debuff. It was a buff That would make you cast blessing protection So because it was a buff and not a debuff All you had to do is right click the the buff and just cancel the buff and then Okay, no classical like it was just easy, you know So there's all kinds of stuff like that because they've they've kind of spaghetti coated the game together and found Like workarounds to like emulate the mechanics, but um, it's it's not uh, it's not perfect, right? And that's why uh, I mean that's one of the big reasons why so many people are so excited for classic, you know Because have you found that I get my main question was that was going to make my main question is like how pogable is Because I get the impression when I was reading for Shows and what people are thinking and it's almost like they believe it's like canada. It's like some sort of paradise That they're going to be able to go into vanilla and it's going to be like everybody's the best friend We're all going to get ubrs keys together in the anixia chain together And we're all going to high five and we're all going to do this stuff Um, that wasn't my vanilla experience. It was not that different from today in terms of you know inclusivity and exclusivity In terms of getting content done, but obviously more people are used to plugging these days Uh, so is that what's pogable in this world that you found from the private service? Have you found it very pogable? Are we going to are people going to be again fast to try and get guilds, which I think is a good thing But right those guys who are these we've we've trained bullet not not we but listen It's trained a lot of people to be these lone wolves solo rambo types, right Uh, you can't get anything done Then that's the complaints we see every day every single wow form that exists So I mean how are those guys going to translate into the vanilla world typically molten core Aq 20 and zg are pogable than everything else is pretty hard to do With with people that you don't know you can plug bwl towards the end Like if you're if you got guys who are just like stacked down they can just carry But I would say you could probably chromagus chromagus and nev start to get really hard with pugs just because people are just like I don't know what to do Yeah Even firemars does got to be difficult, right?  You have to do the full next year check Yeah, yeah, yeah stuff like that's like pretty well documented, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think people are gonna be excited for that It's awesome. Yeah, it's such an adventure. It really is such a journey to go on That's the that's the thing I really miss from the current game is those adventures, right? Yeah, I mean with those with those attunements even just stepping foot in the raid is an accomplishment of sorts I can get in you feel part of a group, right? You're part of this upper group you progress forwards that you can actually get inside like bwl is always pretty easy And mc was pretty easy But the addixia thing is takes you Globally if I remember right it takes you pretty much every corner of the map. Yeah Yeah, you're in the steps. Well, I'm trying to I'm trying to I'm trying to think like You're in winter spring at one point.  I think you go to Wetlands is one right? I think wetlands is for the board, right? Yeah, so that's the Yeah, there's two different attunements. Yeah Depending on that by the jail Yeah, yeah the freeing the guy from the jail and then Scording him out and the whole plot twist at the end with like the big reveal and the cool part about it Is it was non-phase non-instance? So if you saw the event going on in stormwind Yeah, I mean imagine like you're a level 10 new going to like Just going to storm and keep and then you see like all these dragons and what the hell's going on Dude, I remember seeing that quest go on and I like ran in there. I was like, I'm pal I'm consecrate and just see I just want to see all the numbers So I like would run in there and consecrate so I can see all the numbers and those guys they cleave The the dragon and they cleave. So I like I ran in there in melee range and they just played me and killed me And I was like, all right, well great Big place for the Paladin I am hard for it for sure, man. I'm very hard for it. How'd you feel one of you first heard the news? Happy for everybody else genuinely happy for the guys like setting fault long and hard because that was a They were loud for a really long time the petitions. I signed the petition. I did my bit Because I didn't see a reason not to I genuinely did And just knowing that you know how passionate those guys were it was a crazy passion It was a cause to them. You know what I mean? It was something they rallied behind So I felt super happy for those guys. I genuinely did and That's why my biggest fear isn't nobody will play because I think some people will play it for the end To the end of time, you know what I mean? I think some people will start and never leave vanilla if they have the choice to I just don't want everyone else to spoil it would like This is why I brought the guildings like well, I can't do a nyx here Can we get some sort of queuing system to get people to throw the nyx here? I have to stand in iron forge all day looking for a ubrs key. This isn't fun.  You know what's sad? I'm I'm not as fearful of blizzard as I am of the community itself and exactly 100% Like the add-ons and stuff like that like somebody's gonna make A q add-on if it's possible for the api.   But everybody is on the forums Complaining about like the stupidest things like just just things that I'm trying to think of a good example there. I remember seeing one thing where it was like They they were talking about something that's still an issue in bfa today Or like it's it it got flipped like it's like why don't we have this and then it's in the game now And then now people complain about it And it's just so funny because people don't really know what they want They just like They they they just kind of try and come up with ideas and say like oh, okay. Well, I think this right and they don't think about the repercussions of those actions Right, they're looking for an immediate solution. But like what are the repercussions of that? So it's just it's just so funny to me like Looking back at some of that stuff and it's like yeah, like just people people don't really have that kind of foresight Well, no people don't care. They want something they'll fix that right now problem You know, they're not interested in what the repercussions are they want something that like the you know, we've had the plus You could you could buy azurite armor now.  You're not wrong That could be an issue. I'm not sure about queuing at it because I don't think anything was cueable in vanilla You have them stones. I don't ever they classic Where you could click the stone you have to go stand at the dungeon and click the stone that one Yeah, you could click the stone and it would put you up in a queue. That was there in a later patch I think you could also queue from the innkeepers technically um But yeah, I mean Those are just examples. I mean what I'm scared of the most is just something somebody discovering some kind of add-on That we don't we haven't even thought of yet. That's just gonna create some massive blow to like the community or how the game worked and You know, I think stay safe is He's he's so much in agreement that he actually rage quit and now is on his phone right now because he broke his computer Hey stay safe could you could you uh, I think you might have your orientation lock on or whatever If you can turn that off or maybe flip it or something Or if you just want to do this, that's fine too. It looks fine too. I thought Yeah, that's a lot better Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, no worries, dude from it's hey, it's like vanilla's back already Yeah, exactly dude, I remember dude back in the day we uh It I used our internet all the time. I used our we had a well right we had a well and I used it So much that my mom got mad and she made my dad Get a second phone line So we had two phone lines and just one that was basically just the internet line that just ran like all day but it was just funny like how how Now most people don't even have home phones back then you had two home phones You had two home lines one for the internet and one to actually use the telephone with It's like hilarious like how it's just like people don't even know about this Like kids don't know about this rather No, I remember I remember trying to do dungeons Um, and my mom would get a call on the home phone and the internet wouldn't die dial up great. Yep. There you go I'm loving this phone cap. It's the best There you go, so whenever okay, we talked about Yeah, there it is dude. You got the mic, dude. You're good. You got the mic. You're fine. Nothing's changed No, so so you talked about how kind of how you felt and a lot of people were really excited and Um, whenever you heard the news, but did you ever think that it was actually going to happen at this point? Especially after the whole like you think you do but you don't and it's just No, no after that I was it was how could you not be like blizzard really doesn't care Right, you know what I mean? That's that's how I felt. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's again I'm not for or against it. I wasn't on either side. Uh, but when they said that I was like No, give it up, but they did not man those guys. That's why I was happy for them as soon as that came out There was like we're doubling down on this bitch Oh, you got to mock us. Is that what we're doing now?  It's like classic announcement classic. Yeah Every blizzcon fact the last seven years or something. It was like classic announcement. This is the time So, yeah, it was that was very cool. But I was totally I 100% thought it was dead Like there was no question. I mean, I don't think anybody can be blamed for thinking that the that response You think you do but you don't Yeah, I thought it wasn't gonna happen. Yeah, I just was like, oh, they're they're not interested I thought maybe I thought maybe one of our wow dies. They would think about it I thought whenever they were like thinking about like, you know, okay, this is the last expansion guys That's one of our thought they might start thinking about it But um, I totally caught me off guard. I wasn't even watching blizzcon. I was playing madden They couldn't have been more clear that it wasn't going to happen. Like they you think you do but you don't okay. That's done.  They had the pristine servers post remember that Right It was just like it was the compromise, right? It was like, well, we can do this instead and try to appease But uh, when they after the pristine servers post I was like, this is just not going to happen Like period dead in the water and then they freaking they shocked the freaking world, dude. They shocked the world I liked his intro too as well. He was good at his Hebrew came out Because obviously he had to he had the stigma with him for shooting it down initially And I wonder if because you don't know what happens back behind the scenes, right? You don't know whether he's been stuck there the entire time just going this is a waste of time This is the total waste of time This is going to suck people are going to rage they're going to hate it, you know All the way up to and then suddenly the call comes like well, you're going to go out and announce it Just letting you know that is going to be you guys All right, maybe that went on or maybe he was like, okay, let's give us a look you've no idea Maybe you're the future I would look to know I'd look to know whether they might more aim or whatever called him and was like Well, just telling you you're the one who's going to get So you better sell it Because you did You know That's that's like the most that's the happiest story Yeah, happy story Well, it's funny because so we had nano on the show a couple weeks ago Nano was the head of quality assurance For nostalarius and he was actually in the meeting He was one of the five guys that that flew out to blizzard Headquarters and got a chance to meet with them about like legacy servers and you know what they learned with nos and this and that and he said The person who was the most like excited about the the prospect of legacy servers was in Hazakosis, which makes sense He was a hardcore writer in vanilla Yeah, but then he also said Jalen Brack was actually like Super on board too Just like he gave every impression that he was like super on board, which is just so funny like We all had this I I guess this image of him as like oh like this guy hates classic He's the bad guy and then all of a sudden it's like oh wait, maybe he was Maybe it was four classic the whole time or at least Recently It'd be a cool story either way. It would be a cool story either way, but um Hashtag And the video was super hype as well Watching everything roll back was good really because I forgot and I'm sure many of us did he'd been playing for like 13 years Is like we forgot how much stuff's actually happened like when I saw the wave come back over the statue And I was like, oh, yeah, they used to be a statue there You know, there used to be the big thing there like that like watching that video. I was like, I can't believe this is happening and It was definitely I wasn't there For that unfortunately. It wasn't actually in the crowd, which I'm really sad about Out of lights of the next I bet the energy in the room was phenomenal absolutely phenomenal And I just hope it pays off so much Really do hope it pays off Are you guys all like committed to what you're playing or are you like experts now? You're like these elitist classic players After all these I wouldn't because feel bad. I wouldn't say I wouldn't say elitist like just because like I think if you know a lot about the game Uh, I think that's fine, right? But it's like, what do you what do you want to do with that knowledge? And I think one of the big things and this is one of the things I stress on my streams and uh, Just just whenever I talk about vanilla is and we talked about a little bit earlier the game's a lot more casual friendly than people people make it out to be and People have this whole image of like, oh, this is like what's viable, right? And it's like well, you could technically do whatever you want, right? You can play you can go play a boomkin in a raid. You can definitely play a feral tank in a raid.  Like oh, okay. He did like however x amount less dps throughout the course of the fight It's going to be very very A very rare circumstance where all of a sudden you can't clear content because of it and As long as you find a guild that's willing to take you and it depends on the type of guild, right? So if you're running like a high-end like speedrunning guild where we're trying to do molten core in 20 minutes or whatever Then no, you're probably not going to get a boomkin or a rat paladin or whatever But if you're in a casual guild or even like a progression style of guild Where it's like you have people in there and their goal is to complete Complete the current tier of content a reasonable amount of time progress the current tier content in a reasonable amount of time You can still play these other off specs, right? It's totally fine And I mean for me like I'd play a rep paladin, right? I've done all the content as a rep paladin I've played with some of the best players in the entire like private server scene actually Um, you know, it's whether it's like progress players salad bakers players I've guild led I've raid led and it's just like whenever you're in one of these roles Like if I'm going to play ret I don't really have a choice. Like I have to go like 200 effort. I have to go like absolute maximum effort and What does that look like? It's uh, it's fun. It's good.  Well, you got it.  You got to make sure you're doing all the things properly In order to pull your own weight, right? I think if people see that you're you're you're doing your job to the best of your ability And you're a pleasant person to raid with and you're not hindering the raid then That that's the most important thing That's what I think. I guess I mean I've I've had some bad experiences with aspects of vanilla. I played shadow on trash And some bosses where we didn't because you outgear things reasonably steadily in vanilla Certainly if you're doing molten coal farm a blacking layer, but we did have a guy who tried feral tank In nax ramus leather and was still just I can tell you as his healer. It was just a waste of time Um, I mean that guy'd really tried he was dead passionate and we gave him the No, there's been changes. We can do this. We can do that Uh, but we even had another tank because of the way deep So you used to just wear like four items, but nax gear had so much defense on it You could do that and still be defense cat. So you'd have like no pants on Oh shoes things like that and still be tanking better than that feral tank like quite easily um I mean, I always found that the off specs were really good on fights when they lasted about a minute or so Like and you know until the boomkins ran out mana and shadow priests kind of ran out steam I played with one of the best geared shadow priests in the world. We had him we used to call him a shadow mage He was kind of like a young a young lad But he was always looks it was like the cutie And he would just run dry like all the time and he'd do amazing damage But on longer fights you look at your hoover hands and Twins where the fights are getting on in time. They just disappear and they would they did become like What's the point? You know what I mean? There's like this is really becoming a problem Yeah, um, well the good thing with like shadow priests specifically is like the the shadow damage buff is so huge For for the warlocks in the raid and even if you have other shadow damage prox and stuff like it ends up being a Ends up being a pretty big like uh Bonus to the dps the overall dps of the raid and people have just found out better ways to play their character since then Like even me like I found out different things to do with red Since uh since I played in vanilla, right and then it kind of goes back to what I was saying before It's like there's certain things that I there's certain things that I've done And I'm like that's not like that. That's not right like on the private server uh, for example one of them Uh, like people are leveling people have been like trying to level a paladin right on private servers And I've talked about this on my streams before And I said this is probably something that's not going to be in classic, but people switched to reckoning Uh, they switched to reckoning halfway through and then basically they sit They get a they get a stack of reckoning and then you want to sit basically to stack up reckoning And then you can level faster if mobs are hitting you But the problem is is and this is how I remember it as well reckoning didn't work in pve if you sat um They didn't work in pve if you sat down against like a just any npc or whatever But it worked in the same thing in pvp. It would work if if people crit you with abilities But i'm not sure if it worked with auto attacks in pvp. I can't quite remember, but I know for sure it works with abilities Yeah, so it's like little it's like little stuff like that Yeah But it's like little stuff like that that people like go back and they like talk about this stuff And it's like a lot of people like they just don't know, you know They just don't know and they share this information or like they like to oh like I figured this thing out And it's like yeah, but that may or may not be in classic like who knows, you know I think yeah stuff like that like it could get nerfed like big time, you know Yeah, I'm sure a lot of stat weights have changed as well because people I don't think people really started under powerful hit rates Until tbc was when it really became a big deal Like it was kind of a part of vanilla, but the you know having hits on your gear Certainly for some classes was crazy good and people discovered tbc. I'm interested to see what the gearing Side of it looks like now, especially with some overpowered Older items like low level stuff because they made some crazy While you were leveling up some really crazy things that made no sense with how much budget they were given Yeah, I would be interested to see whether you know this because I always remember the trinket from The insolence the hordes got it It was the you know if you did the epic Elite troll area is all right level 45 trinket that had hits on it and it was utterly broken Because you could hit mobs then that were like four or five levels above you quite easily with that thing. Um items like that rune of the guard capsule. That's the one And I'd be interested to see whether people over the years have dug down so far to find Crazy things like that. They're actually super over budget, but low level stuff because vanilla was full of that kind of See whether that makes it into the live engine. Have we got to see people farming? I think definitely definitely people's understanding of pre-read bits and just bits in general and Itemization has has enhanced a lot over time. There's been a lot of theory crap I mean imagine theory crafting a game for 15 years imagine theory crafting all dear for 15 years and how how easy it would be, right?  I'm not looking forward to and uh Those are the things that put would put me off long-term playing of it uh Gold acquisition farming herbs that kind of stuff which I really got tired of in the way it was done in vanilla um Riding around, you know winter spring riding around all those areas Repair costs in general. I felt like I almost bought gold to cover Almost because I just couldn't keep up with the amount I was playing. I just went to the game and there was no gold to be Gone. I don't know how that's addressed currently because I didn't farm to his hand over and over again. All right Yeah, and people have found out like a lot more like Um different like farming methods and stuff over time too like people have just gotten better at it overall But I had the same problem. I I've just period like I just had the exact same problem Like I remember multiple times where I would have to borrow gold for repairs. I I wouldn't respect I had to come up with a Just just a hybrid spec for me to raid and not raid like if I had a heal and raids I played like Pre 1.9. I think I played like 17 holy And 33 rat So I had like blessing of kings and then I would deepen the retro add blessing of kings And then I was able to heal with uh with the early holy talents. That's just how I played and then even later on I'm pretty sure I um Even later on I think I might have gone like 21 holy 30 ret at some point Just because I I didn't I couldn't afford a respect You know 50 gold respect to and then from another 50 gold every single week whenever I wanted to pvp or raid So I just as an officer We had a system of clearing people to respect to the weekend Yeah, because if we wanted to do aq 20 rzg Certainly the healers they would all have a list of who was allowed to respect for the weekend Because the last thing you wanted to do is respect and then respect back a couple of hours late It was too damn expensive. Uh, so we that's how we handled these We had a list of people and they put down like I'm gonna farm this weekend So I need to be able to respect and I need to stay that way for a couple of days And that was the only system we could find so I should make it work and they'd have to stagger it Otherwise no no no the rest of the guild can play Right, yeah Yeah, we sort of led to a lot of someone in chat said it uh lazy multi specs Which are sort of you know, they can work but they're self-optimal for a lot of things But you can use them for a lot of things. Um, I think in today's climate like that might have been okay in vanilla But I think in today's climate where gamers are really a lot more min maxi. I think you'll see a lot less of that on classic servers You think we'll see full prop warriors I think I'll be playing with it. Yeah, respect is best. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I think we just our arms are furious then up to last done. That's what used to take So there was basically You you have people who go deep prop for tanking and then you have people like Let's say you want to go like a tps build once your gear gets good enough And you try and fury tank and one of the big things with fury tanking is Uh having your world buffs and all your stuff the big problem with fury tanking, especially in like the early tiers I think bw is whenever you can like okay, like let's let's do this like legitimately If you have your main tank going for a heavy tps build and he's and he's deep fury for it Uh, if he dies at any point and he loses the world buffs. He becomes like a piece of paper Super super weak.  But same thing like even if they lose their world buffs. It's it's kind of frustrating Are you talking about fury spec but still using a shot a shield or whatever? Or just like dps tanking No, no, uh, like basically like wearing like full wrath and and having your Elemential bull working all that. Yeah Uh, I mean we had someone deathwish tank next year because they couldn't stand stand stands it So they went fury so they could use death way When she landed make sure you block it. It worked Surprisingly it worked just just fine in order to make that happen And but all the warriors I knew were arms with Even our main tanks were arms with just up to last standard That's how they tanks, but I even I'm going to be a warrior in vanilla I'm going to be a norm warrior. He's going to be popping He's going to be 10 out of 10 and I want to be full prop Because I I never did that in vanilla.  He's my best friend. He's my best friend So that's that's where I'm going for it because I want I want tanking to be a challenge for me again Like it's not going to challenge me for a long time. You know, there's a limit to what I can do Uh, it's certainly in the modern. Wow. It's like, you know, counts. Can you count to three? You can probably tank most both Um One of the things specific to to no warrior tanks that I just remembered Uh, so taking fire maw we talked about fire maw earlier.   Stop It'll stop right now. Otherwise, I'll log a torrent tank and I'll do things that no other tank could do I don't know if this is crazy stuff in my torrent. Yeah, maybe maybe get an elixir of giant strength Maybe that'll help you a little bit or not giant strength of uh, uh, what's it called? What's the level eight? Oh, I don't know the the the the one the potion that makes you bigger. I can't remember I'm blanking. I'm blanking elixir of giant growth. Is that what it is? It's giant growth. Yeah, it's giant growth Yeah, exactly exactly if I get stuck in the water. That's my problem and I'll deal with it But don't laugh at me that's all I'm saying And but yeah, I do like uh, no, I'm being a no warrior. You've not changed my mind Go torrent. How many how many people have you had on the podcast? No one has said horde. No one. It's so sad, man So feels bad next year Next year hard. Well, he's not I think it was 50 50 still. I think yeah, he was 50 50. That's true. That's true. Yeah Why though, why would you be horde? We're all horde forever now We got to play alliance for the round of ptr testing because in 8.1. There's alliance only bosses So we had to switch to alliance my whole guild was like we're changing to align It's just so much fun This is it was so it was such a novelty to be able to play alliance characters Because if you're in the raiding scene really you're horde like in modern game, right? I mean you can look at the the top 100 leaderboard for kahoon and it's really sad It's really sad. I think it's wasn't like that 18 alliance guilds now whom the horde have been done for a week or so and it's The freedom is there to be aligned plus dwarf priests, which are big, right? We got the dwarf priests Fear ward. I need it because apparently I can't tank fire more Yeah, I want to do that, but I was horde all the way I've been horde forever. I was alliance for a very brief period during But I've been horde for 13 years. I am more than And so and vanilla seems like a perfect time to do it. I think it's probably a lot of other players are in the same boat because the horde The horde are generally a bit easier time now in game So what do you what do you want to do? What do you want to accomplish with your with your gnome warrior? Like you say you want to tank is there is there any like Hallmark kind of milestone things that you want to you want to do on your gnome or He never going to cut the radar out of him. I'm just clear next when it's ready. There you go And That'll be me probably done with it to be honest with you. That's that's what I'm looking to do and probably take The stream through it. I'll probably do a stream guild Um and take them through it see how much I can remember from raid leading that stuff Without trying to researching As blind as I can But it's hard to forget that you know that much stuff But that's what I'm looking to do nothing more nothing less is clear the raids have fun I do it along the way. But after that, am I going to farm timber more weapons? I'm not going Yeah, you're not going to you're not going to go full completionist mode You know, I haven't done that in any version of Okay, yeah fair enough. Yeah, my completion is the raids like that's my completion Yeah, I don't farm trans well. I don't do any of that stuff. I don't farm mounts Right. All I do is I like beating the hardest concept the game has to offer and beyond that I'm happy I'm happy with the game as it is and then I focus Things or other games and I'm okay with that And yeah, am I going to be doing all the extra stuff now? I did it a bit I did it already as well. And that's the thing that I I've said all along the way about I already played it from its very start till its death like I've had my fill of it I'm not there's nothing I missed out on I did everything I wanted to do at the time So it's not like I can look back at and say this is something I didn't get to do the first time round And now I have to go for it That doesn't exist with me. Everything I wanted to do in vanilla. I've done in vanilla already So that's part of why I wasn't like, oh my god, it's coming back because there wasn't something there for me to get Um, it's going to be fun. Definitely. But in terms of living there, you know, I'm being the new home No, not really, but that's okay. I don't think that has to be the case for a lot of people I'll be a retailer. Is that that's a dirty word to some people? I've gone to the wrong neighborhood, man Yeah, I've walked into a bad street. Well, you know, it could be a retailer Um, but yeah, I'm fine. That's that's my goal is to take my stream and my viewers and we'll make a guild We'll have fun with it. We'll get what we want for it. But what I really want is just raid completion I'll be happy with that and that'll be it and if they do seasons, maybe we'll do it again and go fast Maybe I want to collect the whole dreadnought set actually because I didn't get to do that Because I was a priest and I love the dreadnought set so my gnome might have to get dreadnought that might be a challenge I set myself There you go Do you think it'll be hard to full clear next rambus and everything else without it sort of becoming your home? Are you afraid? Are you afraid of liking it too much? Uh, that's a good question I'm not afraid of it. I'm not afraid of it. If that's the case, certainly the way DFA is right now Um, no, that's fine. Like if I if I I play whatever I want is you know, my stream We'll tell you it's like I wake up. I don't play that something else. Um, so if I wake up It was like I really want to go and farm crusader ops today, you know, that's what I want to do That's what I'm going to do. So that could happen. I'm not afraid of that happening But I'm certainly not doing the next 13 years again Like right, let's do it again. Let's do that. I can't imagine that happening I'll be I'll be until the ratings done. I tend to go full focus until the goal is done And then I still like yeah, like with mithy kahoon died. I didn't log in for two days like I don't I missed out on my mythic plus caches and all that stuff. I just was like, ah, you know, I finished The game's finished. I'm done. Do you see a situation? Do you see a situation preach where hypothetically speaking of classic is like very successful and defies expectations? Do you see a situation where blizzard looks at the modern game and is like, okay What are we doing wrong and do we pull elements from classic and design philosophies from classic and implement them in the modern game? Do you see that happening? It's hypothetical obviously. Yeah, I think it would be easier to build on the classic than try and change the modern backwards They could next expansion. I certainly wouldn't expect in bfa um It's that's a huge question because it's like which elements how do they affect that game? I think they might get some wake-up calls like I said I'm not sure if we were on the show at the time but the When methods streamed the mythic race is one of the biggest things that's happened for a while in a really long time And it's hopefully with the takeaway from that from blizzards people do actually really care about this stuff Like although you might have statistics showing that people aren't trying it They care about it and they're interested in it. And that was obvious from that event Whether they'll look if they don't go Phasing's actually really bad the biggest takeaway we're getting from this vanilla classic experience Is that people love a community right and they love being on one server even if it's causing some performance issues They love it We need to think yes this phase of technology technology is great for performance It's helped loads people but people prefer the other way It's as simple as that not everybody wants the new shiny trainers They prefer the old comfy sneakers sometimes, you know what I mean? And if they take stuff like that that could be good That could be really cool because those are elements that have gone too far. I think the technology has gone way too far It used to be convenient now.  And if they if they take elements from that away that could be good That could really be good But whether they'd probably have to wait a long time to implement slow changes But certainly for a lot of the guys who play Steady changes delicate little touches because it goes too far then it's out of time. Yeah, like And we've talked to her before too. Uh, I've mentioned like how I do think it's You know, and you you mentioned this too. It's basically like they're two different games They're really hard to compare There there's you know some overlap of people who like to play both But they are two different games with two separate like audiences of people that they're trying to sell the game to So it'll it'll be real interesting to see how it goes. I think that drawing inspiration from something in classic May not be a bad idea But it could hurt one audience of the game pretty poor or pretty badly. It could be a pretty poor situation If you were to take something away that maybe the majority of people like that are you know, BFA fans, but they're not classic fans or vice versa, you know Yeah, that's that's kind of how I feel about all that Yeah, it could just completely separate people Which is a genuine fear because I mean, but I think the natural way it's going to go is some people will play the classic Some people play retail and some people play both and that's the way it's going to work I don't think it is I think people I think things happen in black and white where it's like everybody's going to classic Everybody's going to retail. That's no It's gonna be people who do that and there's going to be people in the middle How many shift to either side? I think I think I guess I think you know people will shift between the two that will you know, I'm playing this one then I'm playing this one unless they find This is the interesting thing and I would like this to happen kind of is The more that people play classic the more they're going to Find a community in a home things are going to happen They're going to be part of events that actually matter the next day that happen on the server Right server events somebody will do something and it matters the next day people are still talking about the next day They're talking about in general chat and the next day they're carrying it on with that Once that starts happening people might start gravitating more towards classic because they're in on the story They're in on the joke. They're in on the community situation And that's something people crave They crave to be part of the inside of the circle Right, they don't want to be on the outside Which is where they are in bfa because not anything matters within a second of it happening right nobody knows about it so That's one thing that could be a real thing is that when something happens It doesn't matter what it is something happens It stays there and it becomes the stories we were telling earlier on that were to our server That was our service tail and story And a lot of servers in vanilla had their own stories and tales and things like and the rp servers happen actually The rp servers have these little things because they're in closed They're still in this enclosed environment and they still have that going for them And I get that I do a show called drama time The stories they get there are all guild Realm drama stories They happen to bugs the whole bunch of people all together and they're still living that and enjoying that Yeah, I think you're right big thing That stuff still happens in rp servers and it's very unique outside of rp servers I feel like a lot of people that didn't play these older versions of wow They don't even know what they're missing and they're going to try it out And I think they're like there's no other game on the market right now That fosters encourages necessitates incentivizes this community interaction and teamwork To the extent that classic web does and drama and and gossip and like you said in trade If you're talking about next day, I think a lot of people are going to fall in love with it Once they get a taste of it. I think you're right I think so and it can be something as simple as Some guy got kicked from ubrs room because he's terrible right like we said there's going to be the champion All right, oh you cut out you cut out a little bit there Oh, sorry I'm just saying it could be some simple thing like you're part of a ubrs room that fell apart because of Let's just like say safe. It was terrible.  It's like don't invite saves it stays it why what happened and this story's unfolding But the next day it's still the same thing Because preach is now in the chat and he was there as well. Did this actually happen? It's happening all the time in classic I used to go into iron forge, which was I hope iron forge becomes the main city again, by the way Yeah, I think so I hate storm wind. It's garbage. I thought it's much better storm wind is just annoying Um, I think without flying. I think we're good thumbs up for iron forge going to be the home Yeah, yeah for sure what that's happened. Uh, but yeah, then you know people go joining iron forge is like joining A party of people.  We're talking Yeah, trade skills are there all day They're gossiping amongst each other because they're all part of this community that lives inside the iron forge area um, that's what could Keep people coming back because oh, it's cool. Yesterday. I was in iron forge and this was popping off going to go see what's happening Uh, nobody's saying got to log into burales today because you know Somebody's asking for selling gold Somebody's selling gold. I want to catch up. See yet. There you go. That's pretty awesome And then you get the cross server messages where people used to go and die and leave messages for servers Remember that used to spam all the level ones and kill the skeletons to write messages to different servers Don't get that anymore. But that's a vanilla thing and used to look at like what's going on here, you know And then you have to cross rail rivalry, uh, which is always cool. I like that a lot. Yeah Yeah, I remember I I remember like one of the one of the introduced cross realm was 1.12 introduced cross around 1.12 and I I remember thinking it was kind of cool at first where I could like see people from other servers and my battlegrounds and stuff But I thought I felt like that was kind of one of the first steps in in terms of getting Starting to lose like the flavor of your server and the rivalries on the server just a little bit And and I see why they had to do it, especially like going to the like the battle group system and for the arena I was like, I see why they did that and It kind of ended up being like a necessary evil for some servers where we just have like massive population imbalance And you'd have people sitting in queue for 20 minutes And then you have another group of people like instant queuing or you'd have the other faction instant queuing So I kind of see where it went But like I just cross realm was something that I didn't I didn't particularly enjoy This pros and cons to it right like we're saying it's not black and white Because it's you were right. There were people who were waiting For 20 minutes 30 minutes 40 minutes an hour And then the other team was like straight in And it just made no sense, you know, it was ridiculous But at the same time I said the server only Altec valley that I got to experience a lot because I was an Alakir realm which was massively popular The server only at AV was a very big deal because They knew when certain players were finishing work and joining the AV battle And the people would try and get that honor before those players joined because they were going to shred everyone to pieces So I think on Alakir we had a warrior called Joey Uh, Joey was a high warlord Well, the grand marshal And I was on the horde side and you would see in the messages Joey gets home from work soon. We need to finish Because Joey would come in before healers and shred everyone to pieces That's what Joey would do. He'd come in and he'd just tear the place of sundar on his own with his four healers And that's something you can't get anymore because Joey's coming, you know, um That happened quite a lot and also the Alakir Got Alakir got a name for itself for being like one of the toughest PvP servers going But I think that was part of the cross realm But then again, do you want moments like that where you know, Joey's coming or do you want to wait 45 minutes to get into a Awesome gulch for 20 honor or whatever it was you got at times. You didn't got a lot But you had to farm rep as well to get the gear Which one do you prefer right that's the question which one and those are vanilla Zeds you might not like it, but it's probably coming because it is a vanilla functionality. Hmm Yeah, I mean that's that's something we've talked about too Like it just might end up being a necessary evil or something if whether they implement it from the beginning or They play around with it and then see, uh, you know what we got to do this So it'll be it'll be interesting. It'll be interesting to see Yeah, probably not right I would expect two or three at least Yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot like I think I think at least at least however many they had at launch Because I think well like anytime you have anything that's hyped up like this, right? I think anytime you have at least however like Sorry, whenever you have something hyped up this much no matter what it is you have this big spike There's gonna be so many people interested in logging in for the first time and just saying like oh like what's going on What's this all about and then there is going to be the drop right? It doesn't matter what it is There is going to be a big drop after the initial spike Um, you know bfa may or may not have been like that right? We don't know because we don't know sub numbers But um, what we call is Yeah, what do you think about that by the way? Do you think it was legit? I didn't think nothing Ask someone else I don't know It's Ian has a costus all along Veiled his mask Yeah, I think um Yeah, I don't know. I just I just think it'll be interesting to see how that gets played out Uh, real quick. I don't like false merging. Don't you? Oh, sorry too. Yes. No. No. Yeah for sure For sure. I think I think merging would be a lot better solution than don't even ask just do it like I'm sick of this irrational. I mean I find it irrational.  Don't have it messed up like Yeah, it'll it'll be it'll be really interesting how they how they actually approach that situation Real quick, uh guys, if you haven't already, please, uh, feel free to follow tips stay safe preach You can see all our handles under the cameras right there below and myself if you haven't followed this channel yet We do do classcast every sunday.  We are going to do q&a here soon So if you guys tweeted us with hashtag classic cast, that's what we'll be searching up You guys have any questions Uh for us to talk about any questions you have for preach Uh, we'll get to that too. Uh, also one last thing We have the winners of our last giveaway For three blizzcon virtual tickets And they are sanfa discala And fiat. So that is the last, uh, blizzcon virtual ticket giveaway that that we're doing I will email you guys, uh Probably by the end of tonight, so we can kind of start getting some substituated so we can get you guys virtual tickets And, uh, I mean, this is just something that we kind of did because we We feel like the A large portion a very large portion of the classic community has Uh, really kind of rallied behind us and what we've been doing with classic cast and We've been trying to think of ways that we can give back You guys have been incredibly supportive of everything we've been doing with classic cast and Everything's been going really well, and we're just so excited for blizzcon. We're so excited for this demo. We're so excited for For what's going to come. So just big thanks to you guys just we're looking at ways that we can give back to you guys and even We're looking at doing some stuff as well Um, possibly like, you know with some other content creators Uh just people who It doesn't necessarily matter like how how big or small somebody is what really matters most is Uh, how you treat other people, right? Whether whether they're up or down, right? You know being being this some kind of person when we've had a lot of people, uh, who have been supportive of us and you know, maybe kind of We're we have some people in mind but doing some kind of maybe stream team or something You guys are interested in classic content. There's some other smaller streamers and stuff that are Interested in classic and are going to be streaming classic as well So you guys can maybe just have more people to watch through us. Uh, I think we've been talking about that We think that's something that would be really cool so Yeah, there's a lot of people that have that are smaller streamers on twitch here or make smaller youtube channels that make classic content We'd love to work with you guys or do collabs or chill on discord during classic Wow or be on a stream team all sorts of stuff Yeah, and we have some people in mind, but that's just kind of like a heads up for uh for you guys watching And you guys have been really really supportive of what we're doing so far So, yeah But yeah, um, if you guys have not already again follow us Follow preach at preach lfw in the twitch on twitch. I post it in the chat and tweet right now Hashtag classic cast tweet at us And I will answer your questions on twitter as well as in the chat. Uh, you're pretty soon I got a question for preach real quick When does classic come? Oh I mean how committed am I I don't think Yeah, yeah, I don't I think maybe uh, uh, let me make you a rationally hypes Christmas day No way. I know I have it on good authority You gotta be kidding me now. Don't do this to me. Yeah early next year. I think Yeah, I think uh, that'd be special My anniversary's on december 26th.  Oh, I am waiting Yeah, yeah, we talked about this. I I don't know if we'll get a really stated blizzcon I think it might be a little bit too early to give us that But I think if they do, uh, some sort of extended testing period like a beta or alpha or whatever Which I think is likely for multiple, you know, for a number of reasons. Yeah, they rebuilt the game. I kind of do Yeah, they're gonna do it. Um I think they might kind of hint at a time frame for that and I think after that happens It's not going to be too long out of uh I had too long after that where where we'd probably get the release Yeah, I wouldn't put a lot of people saying a hundred percent I don't a hundred percent That's not gonna work out well Um, it would be nice. I expect some sort of beta announcement or something along those So we'll see how the demo goes. Um, I think they'll be big about the demo and see what we've got in store for us What what else they got to say about it though, that's the thing Right, we'd like to know what patch they're starting on right? We know the foundation patch But what is the content cycle to start right? We talked about before they're going like pre moradon post diamol Everything what are they gonna do? Um, personally, I hope it's from the start and then gradually build on it. Right. What would you uh speculate would be on the demo? Do you think? Uh, I would imagine what gold shy westfall something like that Uh-huh I think I don't think much more than that to be honest. They they said two zones and when they said two zones I I think that they were talking about uh, I think they meant like one zone for each faction. That's what I think Uh, so probably Well, maybe maybe That's like we talked a little bit about westfall and barrens The thing is with westfall and barrens and I don't know the barrens that well, right? I was mostly in alliance guy But with westfall like there's no class trainers, right now that that could be an easy fix They just dump them in there for the sake of the demo um And they talked about being able to put some talent points in I think there's a pretty good chance that Stay safe brought this up actually stay safe brought this up and it's it's so iconic right whenever you're creating a human And then you see the the gates of storm wind and the whole cinematic that comes out Say they was talking about this a few times or a few class cast ago I I think that that's something that's so important Uh for the sake of a demo just having those intro cinematics and starting at level one and maybe having the intro zones where you just have l1 forest and maybe you just have durator And they just say you know what these zones are walled off and you can just play However, however far you can get without You know until you can't get any more speed like every mob's great at you or something like that Although all the monsters are great at you maybe that's that's that's what I think could start Yeah, maybe uh, I mean the if you haven't done a lot of testing Um, then it doesn't matter about things like class trainers and stuff. They just stick them in there Um, and any class it just because you know traditionally, you know a night elf starts in down asses or whatever Uh, that's not the really what it'll happen on a test realm.  So, I mean I think they do want to make a good impression. I don't think durator choice. Hold on They might even use more gore or certainly serious fall Um, if they do what I do that, but I do agree like the entrance into the Well, you could be a really nice finish. Oh, sorry. I don't know why Yeah, I wonder what's going on. It might be discord. It might be your discord voice activity Be a little bit high the threshold. Yeah, it could be. Um But that's a I like the idea. I think nobody wants something meatier though those zones are a little bare That's all I think that maybe the demo wouldn't last very long. That's why I think more barons ish westfall ish There's a bit more meat on the bones Um, maybe they'll include deadlines in there You know that would be nice. I think that would be awesome. If they put wailing caverns and deadlines in I think I think that would be it would be so cool if they did that You actually could get a group together and do a dungeon. That'd be the coolest thing That'd make more sense to me than just the start zone even in vanilla the start zones didn't last that Yeah, maybe maybe like a few hours of content a duratab is so bad I really do think so but most sense, but I don't think that going one to 20 is going to happen I think it's way too much content for your average player I mean we only have it for what five and a half or six days, right? One to 20 is a lot of content for just a player that hasn't played vanilla before You know there there used to be they would have the trial where you could go to level 20 That's not in six days, right? Yeah, not in six days, but like you could play a trial wild count where the cap was level 20 So maybe it wouldn't be totally crazy, but I think that six days is not very long Uh, like like some people say I wouldn't expect all races I would I would like to say even if your your race isn't supposed to start in x zone They'll just start that's the way it always works on the tester arms If you're testing anything from expansions or otherwise, they just dump you wherever Doesn't matter. They don't need to stick to the rules for this stuff Right, but I would I would hope for something a bit meatier than the one to 10 experience Well, that might be what they give you just to just show you the graphics depends what they're trying to show you Because it's a sell right. It's a demo to sell it. Right. So what are they trying to sell here? They might just be trying to sell the graphics in which case one to 10 is fine They're just trying to sell you what it looks like what the action bars look like what the spells look like The sound effects and so on and so forth if that's all they're trying to show us then that's all they need to show us It don't I will say more than that or something. That's it I will say regardless of what's actually in the demo I think the fact that they're letting us download it and play it at home from our own computers is indicative Of a sooner release rather than later. I think that's it. I'm with you. I'm with you I think early 2019 at least by june. I think Yeah, I think that's certainly not another question Mm-hmm But nothing late game. I think we're all agreed Right. We're not gonna get the playgrounds or anything like that. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, you'll be some sort of early game experience I'm gonna chat to the desks. Yep. Well, we'll be stuck in desks On the night. There we go. What a blast by now What would be worse? Not much Maybe pre-pre-changed still with us Literally nothing there. Not even a single quest or whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah So here's this is a pretty good question. Uh, what is preachers opinion? This is from max richardson What is preachers opinion on new content and vanilla that provides side grades rather than upgrades? And I guess he's talking about post-nax content Yeah, this idea of horizontal progression paths, right? Mm-hmm rather than keeping it going the question is going to come up. Um You're trying to take the you're trying to guess the opinions of maybe a lot of people Uh I think I think it could go one of two ways like if it's ridiculously popular Then that might be the best option. Like if it crushes retail well Then that might be an option is like we just need to develop concept for this and not change it really We want to keep it as it is and just create side stuff. Um I think realistically though, like we said seasons and they already have they could they have A decade's worth of expansion is lined up That they don't need to do anything But they could just release them to them and they're like there you go and then we can start the vanilla one again Especially if the fresh thing you guys talk about is as popular as you say it is There's no need for them to do that and they might weigh though It's like well, we could do that or we could just keep going with different expansions and restart the vanilla one Which I I think is more likely I think they'll go that way. I'm not against it. But where does that end? You know do they increase item level stuff in there? Is it better gear in there to incentivize you to go? What's the reason it's there story wise? Does that matter to anybody? Does it? Clash with everything we did in the burning crusade and every expansion after that. I don't know Yeah It definitely doesn't seem worth it to spend millions of dollars into a qa feasibility studies testing development marketing For a product that's not tested. I think they would actually go tbc