Johnny how you feeling about this tough motor training? Well as you know we had a little well I had a little accident this morning. Yeah well no we here. Well I noticed that as I was holding my face and the blood shooting out you were nowhere to be involved. I actually I to be fair I handed you my sweat towel. Yes you did. Yes you did. It was very friendly. Yeah and you're usually very protective of your sweat towel. So much we should tell the audience what happened this morning so that they can have a laugh at my expense. I certainly have had plenty of them today. So we were at the gym training for the tough motor and as if you guys are as a recording this I believe we're two weeks out. Yeah and there's about 20 of us including our guest Chris who was on the show our trainer. Yeah he's very important in his story because he was with us this morning and two weeks out and Chris wants to make sure that the functional training of the obstacles that we're gonna be doing is in our in our training program and so we were doing the old pegboard wall where the pegs go in the wall and you're climbing up and you got to climb down them and some of you all know what I'm talking about and they can be pretty dangerous but I wasn't really thinking about that because I had a I had a mission of accomplishing this thing today because it is all has taken us down a few times up until this point and I will say you know those of you who know the pegboard will know that sometimes you beat the wall and sometimes the wall beats you and today well it's beating us every time I'm so waiting for my sometimes it has beaten us every time and today it put the kick in the balls to the beating of me actually kicking teeth in the teeth so as I'm going up at the one of the pegs had slipped out and I will go ahead and say that this has already happened twice earlier today that I didn't think anything of it I got away with just a bruise that I and I commented to start that you should be wearing a helmet yeah this activity neither you and Chris responded no no and so going up try number three yes try number three the pegs slipped out and bashed me straight in the mouth and I have a bit of one I have a tooth that's a little protruding you might be able to use you can see it in pictures and the peg just happened to directly smack that tooth and the lip and bite on the lip that is there so I followed the ground I obviously realized there was something in my mouth so must be spit out and that's when you saw my my teeth flying across the gym yeah lovely morning and then I handed you my sweat towel yeah an amazing friend yes as you did and a lot of blood was coming out because my lip had busted open and I'm a little bit in shock at the moment because I don't point something out for the audience you know we talk a lot on the show about if you are getting the same results and expecting something different you might want to try to change what you're doing yeah so that you're not getting the same results yeah this little story here illustrates that we are not immune to the teachings of the show we struggle with these things as well well that is for sure and the wall has bested us yes we got a little angry it was the middle of the training and your tooth took the blunt it's literally and you know I was thinking as I'm sitting in the dentist chair today right after the gym I was I was appreciative that it couldn't have happened that a better time in place because Chris our trainer his husband just happens to be a dentist yeah yeah nice little business going there yeah working out the gym bus your teeth go see my husband yeah nice little upsell he's got working so yeah I was able to get a cat put on so for those of you watching this on YouTube if Johnny looks a little funny on camera you don't need to adjust your screen it is due to the tooth incident and if my if my speech is a little bit more slurred than usual it's certainly not from drinking yeah please send him an email Johnny at theartofcharm.com about his voice and your issues with it he enjoys those especially yes welcome back to our month of navigating relationships in the first part of our toolbox episode last week we looked at dealing with uncertainty in relationships in general then we took a look at navigating your leadership role at work and the four tasks that you need to start doing from day one and of course we wrap the episode up with navigating new relationships and the question we often get how do I find new friends after I move to a new city now in this episode we're gonna look at navigating romance that's right going into a committed relationship maybe even moving in together how do you know when to do that we're also gonna talk about how to have the conversation around money with your partner one of the leading causes of emotional strife and ultimately the destruction of relationships is your conversation with money and lastly how to deal with growing apart in a relationship I know Johnny this is something that we've talked a lot about getting into relationships on the show over the years dating obviously was how we got our start but navigating relationships we're gonna talk about some situations that I feel we get a ton of questions about we do and they're and they're important and all relationships have to ask and answer these questions and it was good for us to to brush up get a little research in them and then find out some interesting ways to go and go about it and for us to finally have a full discussion about it now one of the questions we get a lot is how do you know that the person you're seeing should become your girlfriend or boyfriend how do you take it to the next level when do you know and I feel like in today's swipe life yeah as Johnny likes to say there are an endless amount of options and it becomes very difficult the paradox of choice in our dating life so how do we know who to settle down with the second part of this episode we're actually gonna talk about the money discussion in a relationship yeah it's actually one of the leading causes of stress and breakup is money and how do you have that conversation how do you come to some common ground with your partner and then we're gonna end the show with what do you do when you feel the relationship drifting apart yeah how do you handle that I know we've talked about breakups we've talked about starting relationships but these are important decisions in all of our lives romantically and how we navigate is really important so let's kick things off first and foremost with this idea of how do you know this person is the one the one to get serious with yeah and as always I just want to be truthful and honest about this and come from it from a scientific perspective a lot of people it's well it's easy to get a storybook movie perfect picture of finding the right person or that the right person is out there we are in Hollywood we have been spoon fed this idea all of our lives and you certainly don't need to live in Hollywood to have to to fall into the line with that it's on to television and books and and everywhere we go but that's just not the reality of the situation I'm waiting for the movie that's about the couple that met on one of these dating apps swipe life that movie's got to be around the corner I'm sure it is and you know I'm not going to waste my time we don't we don't romanticize a lot of the ways that we meet one another but when it comes to deciding is this the right person for me should I become committed to this person well we're not going to give you a 12-point checklist nice to do that's not how the show is formatted but we are going to talk about three questions to ask yourself now this is probably one of the most subjective areas that we're going to cover of the show understanding who's the right person for you is going to be largely on your gut it's not going to be the right person for Johnny it's not going to be the right person for me and we want you to keep that in mind as we go through this first section here because we're not about telling you how to live your life we want to help you figure out the best way to do that and to to bring it back to what we put together last week is that there a lot of times there's no right or wrong decisions and so then it goes to make you making the decision right so you putting all your efforts and your commitment and your energy into making whatever you choose the right one and because it's a relationship you want to make sure that the other person is willing to do that same work or we're going to have a very lopsided giving them taking in the relationship and then on top of that it's in folklore for both men and women that that idea but even girls are told from an early age you're gonna have to kiss a lot of frogs see fine Prince Charming guys know that they're gonna have to play to fill the fine person is right for them and for I see what though it's usually the young guys and gals who write in asking how do I know I found the right person and you don't it's about the work that you're willing to put in and the work that the other person is willing to put in and that is really our first question to ask yourself as we start seeing someone even when we're not completely committed we have these rose colored glasses on we talk a lot about the honeymoon phase yeah where the other person is amazing the other person's perfect for you you overlook every flaw you may not even notice the flaws in fact you're just so happy and the chemistry is there right we talked about chemistry on an episode of the Evan Marquette's and how it could be deceptive yes when it comes to choosing the right person well we can there's chemistry there's biases that you're bringing in your previous experiences of the people you've dated are going to be coloring these biases so there's a lot going on so of course you're gonna overlook some things that perhaps six months a year and five years could drive you nuts and the thing is is when the rose color glasses start to fade the chemistry starts to wear off a little bit you come out of the the fog the question that we want to start with is is this going to work for you if the person doesn't change or if you don't change right and I think this is an important question because a lot of us find ourselves starting relationships with people that we see that we can fix mm-hmm I don't like everything about this person but with enough time with me I'm gonna fix them I'm gonna make them right I'm gonna show them all the lessons I learned how to do things the right way I I think another thing that goes on with that is we can only it's difficult to judge other people because we don't live their experiences and and everything that they have to go through we can only live ours and we tend to project that on other people especially people we like because we see things in them that might not even be there that will make up about that person in order for us to feel good about being attracted to them for instance if I'm very much in the self-development it's easy for me to why wouldn't everyone be in a self development why wouldn't you want to be a better person why wouldn't you want to work on yourself and if you tend to do a lot of work on yourself you expect other people to do those things and if you bring up that conversation they can look at you once again as as you're the one it's crazy what's your problem why are you picking on me why are you judging me you liked me when we met well what's wrong with me now I didn't change you're the ones change it you're the one it's reading the changing books so the first bucket of cold water is the question is this gonna work for you even if the other person doesn't change and if you don't change stop trying to change people stop going into relationships thinking that you can be the repairman it's not a good look it does not work out in that way and it's it's tempting in the beginning to think that these issues will just sort themselves out like give it enough time chances are actually they're not gonna sort themselves out the issues that present themselves in the beginning tend to stay there and as much as we've talked about personal development and change changes hard for humans that is a very hopeful idealistic way of going into it right things will work themselves out if they see me operating in a certain manner though they'll figure it out I'm gonna show them the way how many times can you roll into a relationship in that manner and have it blow up in your face before you start going into it like with a very pessimistic idea of the relationship right yeah I mean we're not preaching you know remove all optimism but again as we heard Evan Marquette say in his episode around dating is that dating is a full contact sport and odds are stacked against you meaning not everyone is the one there aren't very many matches for you that's why you got to get out there and as Johnny says kiss a lot of frogs and I I think people have to be well they have to look at experience and that you're going to go through a few partners you're going to meet a lot of people as they'll look at as a bad thing learn look at it as growth and learning about what you don't want in a relationship that's very important how are you able to pick good people for yourself if you don't know one way or another what's going to work for you we've all done this of course you know I've gone into relationships myself knowing that there's this issue but I'm like oh man this chemistry is amazing this yeah why throw this away and to be honest there's been situations where I've been pushed into the relationship because I wasn't sure I saw the issues but they kept pushing I was like yeah let's keep it going why not it's gonna sort itself out wrong AJ it's not sorting itself out so understanding that if you think and expect change is gonna make things better when you're starting a relationship with someone that is a faulty idea the other important question to ask yourself is whether you have a complete picture of the other person again the honeymoon phase is a lot of physicality is a lot of chemistry is probably not a lot of meeting friends yeah seeing their real interests figuring out what they do for fun a lot of this stuff that we see in the beginning stages of seeing someone is just that their best foot forward have you had enough time experience with this person to see the full picture or are you making a judgment and rushing into committed relationship with just a single snapshot of this person well it's yeah it's gonna be your best representation of them because you need to rationalize to yourself why you're wasting your time with this person so of course you're gonna build them up into this amazing I don't get like just character that that you know they're gonna have faults I remember when Amy and I met in Vegas I met at a pool party yeah and I was obviously in a pool my hair was down I was not wearing glasses I was wearing sunglasses yeah and then I got back to the room I was packing to head back to LA and I really had spent the entire weekend Labor Day weekend in Las Vegas so at this point most of my clothes were dirty I had worn them so I had one outfit left that I had worn to the club that was probably the cleanest so I just threw that on I wasn't expecting to meet anyone I had planned to come back to LA so I was just shooting home so Amy sees me in the pool hair down very relaxed very mild mannered and then I get out of the shower and I'm cleaned up and ready to drive home and I'm wearing my club attire and she's just like who's this guy who this is not the guy I met in the pool right saw a different side of me think about that how many experiences have you had with this person to really see the full picture if you only really hung out at yours or hung out at theirs or just gone to that one spot where you guys have met you don't have a full picture of this person and you may be rushing into something yeah and well the picture that you paint of these of your significant other and people that you're interested in you mentioned that there's a chemistry there's all this stuff going on biases the rationalizing of because you have time at stake here and a commitment at stake and you know people make these calls about people and even when they see signs that the picture that they painted is not correct they'll rationalize away even those things that are blatant or they'll act as if they didn't happen and I can give one which is because of my haircut a lot of people tend to think that I'm British you've been with me enough to hear this and of course I do not have anything of a British accent and people when people find out well they'll say something about being from London or England and I was like yeah I'm not I'm not from Pittsburgh I'm from Pittsburgh and they're like that's that's funny great American accent you got there buddy yeah you have a British accent like you're not fooling anybody and it's hilarious to me because first of all I'm not I don't have a British accent I flat out told them that I am not from Britain and that I don't have a British accent but because they've already decided that I am they'll ignore all of that and they'll hear things that are not there it's a man and you've seen it they'll project on to you that it's a fake accent you're it's a fake American it's a real British accent skin a show it's and we do this in these relationships as well and we'll ignore and there is we'll see behaviors and actions that we don't approve of that we would never tolerate from anyone close to us but yet with this person oh well you know we and we got a giant web of rationalizations women it tends to happen with people that we find likable with people that we are attracted to this is scientifically proven when you actually like someone and you are interested in someone you highlight their strengths and you downplay their weaknesses that that's all you can see is the positive so obviously when we're talking about starting a relationship with someone being committed with someone we want to give it enough time and space and see them in different environments maybe meet their friends meet more of their co-workers and get a better picture of who they are as a person and what is the life that they live now for some of us this last question is going to probably hit the hardest are you willing to put in the work because relationships are different than dating when you're dating you're a free agent you are not responsible to anyone but when you are in a relationship and we're not just going on a string of dates well now we got to discuss and solve problems together we got to put our heads together we got to work together and to go along with this this was probably one getting into relationship for the first time as a young man one of the things that I had to learn was that I couldn't think as I anymore and I had to think as we and I learned that if I didn't think as we then I was in the doghouse and that changes how you're going to look at it that changes how much time you're going to get to give to get to a destination because now you're doing with a significant other who may have more time to get ready than you well yeah the running joke is what do you see your friends what I'm single exactly and but even something as what's for dinner or what time are you getting there or we now changes how you would answer that question normally as I amy's listening we an effort to make the other person a priority is what we're talking about here mm-hmm right the I single AJ running around town is not the same as AJ in a relationship there are other people to consider and some of us especially our younger listeners may have never actually experienced that so that can be jolting are you prepared and willing to make that time and space for them yeah I I know being an entrepreneur and running the business over the last 12 years that there have been moments in my life where I probably shouldn't have been in a relationship I did not have the time and space for that person thankfully they stuck with me but you got to ask yourself I'm moving into a committed relationship do I have the time and space for this person will I be able to make it for them and there's something to say about being honest about that up front of here is what I have to contribute to a relationship at this time so if you want to continue seeing me as we move forward you can expect this but if you you in a relationship demand more then we're gonna need to have a conversation because that is that we have to see if we can find a compromise there and that's important now this one is amazing to me when we think about is this someone you can work with and when we talk about working together it means do you have good communication mm-hmm if you can't express your needs and wants or the other person can't express their needs or wants that's gonna be a relationship that has a lot of turmoil and we're not just talking needs and wants in the bedroom we're talking needs and wants in a relationship as in do you bring to the table and know what comforts you and what allows you to feel safe in a relationship and can you communicate it to what goes on with this this this discussion this is how you're going to be working through problems and you have to understand that most problems are not foreseen they come up right then you realize oh this is a problem and if you notice now that it's a problem the reason you do is because either someone's about to or someone's already gotten hurt exactly now you have to work through the pain that's been caused or that could have been caused and we have emotions involved those emotions don't get pushed aside because you understand what's happening and now it's we just should we'll just we'll shut the emotions off we'll go to our logic brain or reason this out we'll reason this out and we'll move forward a couple pie charts no problem it's called emotional theater for a reason these things have to play out and if you don't allow them to play out the other person can feel not heard or pushed forward unwilling or unready to get to a certain point and now they're gonna hold resentment against you and if you continue to do that that will compound over time right so how how do they communicate under stress and there are a lot of ways you can see this when you're dating right if the valet doesn't have your car if the food is cold if the bartender cuts you off right and the person you're out with if they react in a way where they're not in control of their emotions guess what's gonna be brought into the relationship so when we talk about these questions that we want you to ask yourself as we said it's not this checklist but really think long and hard about is this going to work for me if the other person doesn't change or I don't change what's interesting about as you date somebody you start to learn how their emotions flow and you have to learn that you have to let them play out for on your side as well as the other persons and if you find the how they play it out as annoying it's it's only gonna get worse because you have to play this this out every time that there's a fight and it can be it can be it could be so annoying and off-putting that you that just allowing them to work through this will upset you and now we have two people being upset on on the same issue on both sides and I want to point out there was a situation I was in where anytime that there was a fight the next day if I would be texting back the girl I'd never hear back because she was still upset and it would play out and then about 1 o'clock 2 o'clock in the afternoon I'd start getting likes on my Facebook and it was at that like that I then I could text her and apologize and she would accept it and this had to play out like this every time there was a emotional theater I know I had a front row seat this is a ticket holder this stupid and it would play and it would anger me so bad and I would even write like do we have to play this out this time can we just move on do we and but it for the other person has to work through those emotions and or they're not going to be ready and if you can't deal with that emotional theater playing out this is not a good relationship for you and that that really is well we're getting to the meat of this is it's not a checklist it's it's being honest with your gut and listening to the answers to these three questions so to recap question one is is this going to work for you even if the other person doesn't change or if you don't change stop trying to get into a relationship that involves changing someone or being told the only way the relationship is gonna work is if you change because change is hard the second question we're talking about here is do you have a complete picture of the other person or have you really just spent time having that great chemistry or just going to that one spot that you guys both love have you experienced enough with this person to really move to that next phase the last question is are you willing to put in the work because if you aren't willing to put in the work a relationship is probably not where you should be let me ask you what would you say to somebody who would write in and say how do I get a better picture of my partner what would you what would you offer them as as tactic so number one I would say trying to take them into different situations that are situations where you either find yourself a little stressed out or you find yourself really elated yeah right both ends of the spectrum so that you're getting outside of your comfort zone and you're getting a good sense for how this person interacts and you're also in your zone of genius in your zone of joy and seeing how they react that's a wonderful in fact I mean that's some of the bits that we do in a boot camp right when uncomfortable situations I can't tell you how many times I've met someone felt that there was a little something there and then went to my favorite spot in my zone of joy and that person was like you like to dance you like this music I can't believe it so a lot of times when we're walking around these rose-colored glasses you know we're in this this one little space and and just having this one experience together so I like to stretch it on both ends of the spectrum go outside of my comfort zone and then go where I'm completely elated and see what the interaction is like and I will add to that to to not negate when you see behaviors and actions that you don't like from that other person make a mental note of these things that when you are as they continue on that you're gonna be able to tolerate are you able to what happens if you're not and you bring them up in discussion does the other person get absolutely defensive and starts throwing at you I mean these once again are you willing to do the work then now Johnny we know money is a loaded topic when it comes to relationships it certainly is there's various viewpoints on money and relationships we've heard everything from shared accounts separate accounts but at the end of the day your relationship with money yeah and your partner's relationship with money is extremely important to understand yes and this was one of the interesting things in doing research for the show that I never really thought about before that it makes all the sense in world and I apply it to everything else so why wouldn't I apply here which is what is the story you tell yourself about money absolutely and they can and there could be well there is there's multiple there's there to be hundreds of different stories and if yours doesn't go work well with the other person this could be a heated piece of convention and the science is really interesting we're gonna talk in a second about polarization I don't want to get too far ahead but the one reason for that is that our relationship with money is really a stand-in for something much more impactful our goals our insecurities and fears and also what we define as freedom so when we think about our relationship with money and the story that we tell ourselves about that relationship do we have a firm grasp on what it truly means because some of us aren't even willing to think about our relationship with money maybe we've struggled maybe it's been a point of contention in our family but understanding your relationship with money goes a long way to how to actually have the conversation with your partner I can certainly say that over the years my relationship with money and the story that I've told myself about it has drastically changed and it's more of a point of being more conscientious of now than I then when I was certainly younger I think that's for everybody but even so if that was something that you had been taught well as a child with your allowance and savings and things like that that is something you're going to carry into young adulthood and if not that is something that you're going to have to learn on your own and if that is something that that has alluded you or that you had a a relationship where you didn't want to have to deal with it well then how are you going to have how are you going to talk about that and what you think about money with your partner yeah I mean I've I've dated women whose parents have basically handled that relationship for them wow they didn't have any relationship with money because it was just an afterthought right there was so much abundance for them they have to worry about it and then obviously coming from the background that we did where money was scarce and and money was truthfully an existential threat we we need food on the table yes that's going to be a drastically different relationship with money and guess what this money relationship is a big part of your relationship because if you look at every major life event as a couple it involves a serious amount of money yes buying a house where to send your children your wedding well we were all major money decisions a house I can understand there's some utility in that well you and I were just laughing about a wedding that we were talking about of somebody that we know and the out with the price of that and just how looks it's one of those things it could be as a stravagan as you would like it to be whatever you want to spend there's somebody they're willing to help you out with that yeah and if you don't have a firm grasp on your partner's relationship with money they may want an entirely different wedding than you want they may see it as something that has to be the most extravagant versus you may view it as you know what this is something that I want to enjoy myself but we don't need to go that overboard when we don't understand our own relationship with money then these decisions in a relationship become much more difficult and unfortunately a lot of us don't want to talk about money because we know it is stressful we know it's a point of contention so we choose to bury our heads in the sand and not have the discussion at all I know Johnny we were laughing on a previous episode about you know being in a situation where people ignore the bills entirely I don't want to see him I don't look at him right that's certainly a relationship with money not a healthy one you know that's a relationship yeah and I certainly held that in my 20s when I was you know when what most of my job was bartending and being on the road playing in a band I didn't want to my goal was to get as least amount of bills as possible right I have the least amount of responsibility because I never knew what tour was coming up or how long I'd be on the road so I didn't want anything to hinder those opportunities but at the same time you do need some creature comforts as well and but I would look to cut corners in any way that I could as I had gotten older their creature comforts had evolved and I wanted more of that but as I matured and and as my goals and focuses changed my relationship with money has changed as well now this was fascinating in our research for this episode this concept of polarization now the other reason that money can create so much discord in a relationship is that couples usually polarize around money and not necessarily at the beginning it's not always that opposites attract but what research has shown is that eventually when one partner sees the other partners relationship with money let's say acting extravagantly right just overspending being a little outlandish with their expenses the other partner will tend to polarize in the opposite direction meaning start saving more start seeing that as unnecessary expenses and this polarization happens whether or not you were polarized in the beginning so you could both come into the relationship having a very similar relationship with money but as you spend time together your gonna flip to one of these two poles of the scarcity mindset abundance mindset essentially and in that situation if you don't have good communication and you're not clear on what your partner's relationship with money is you could be walking around in the dark which leads to a major major issue in the relationship well what happens when you're walking around the dark you get scared and what happens when you get scared you look for things to comfort you how do you do that you start spending money yeah and and and this is what allows you to feel good as one person's taking control of the situation you're in the dark cuz you don't want to discuss it you got to feel better you're spending money on whatever escapism and and vices that will allow you to the comfort food and junk food in that moment to allow you to feel good so we now understand the pitfalls around not understanding our own relationship with money or our partner's relationship with money so how do we get to a place where we can work this out obviously it's an important part of a relationship feeling comfortable with money and your partner's relationship with money does create a lot of security it does create a lot of freedom so how do we get there now Olivia Mellon who's a therapist specializing in money conflicts among couples for the last four decades wow says that if opposites don't attract right off the bat then they will create each other eventually so that polarization is going to happen how do we handle it first she says that each partner should tell the other about their view on money as we said at the start we all have our own belief system around money what is your story and again in a relationship we should feel comfortable enough to have this conversation some of us listening are like AJ Johnny I don't feel comfortable enough well it's the first thing that came to my mind is how many other difficult conversations have you had to get what you wanted but you don't have this one right I know I'm laughing because I'm thinking about all the kinky talks you've had so you're getting yours in the bedroom but yeah you don't have to talk about money next it's time for each one in the relationship to mention their concerns about the other's relationship to money and explain why this is a concern now this is important we want to follow up with what you like about their relationship and maybe what you envy them for so for example what might be stressful for you is the fact that your partner is an extreme saver and penny pincher and wants that security now saying this is something for me that is concerning here's why but also saying hey and I actually kind of envy you for this I wish I could be a better saver I wish I had that relationship with money yep the last step is actually agreeing on how you're gonna handle this as a couple and that's really key I've met couples that have agreed that separate bank accounts are the way to go sure I've met couples that have agreed that a prenuptial agreement is the only way to feel safe and secure in their relationship and then I've met couples who are joint everything everything's pulled together and that's the rule well and not one of those are better than the other they just works you want the one that works best for you in your relationship exactly and that means being honest and don't get us wrong this is not an easy feat to pull off in fact I was going through the prep for the show with Amy and we were talking about hey these are conversations that we have had to a degree but we'd like to have more of and like to get a greater understanding and an understanding that when this conversation is had and it's ongoing you can start to create goals for the relationship that you could work towards well and that's gonna roll into part three which which is growing I mean we understand how important those goals are for ourselves and if we're taking an eye and we're turning it into a we all then why wouldn't that be good for you because you're now not two separate people you're a relationship you are one so obviously we've been discussing the earlier parts of a relationship first just committing to a relationship and then you know moving in together and potentially talking about the first conflict which is money now we want to talk about what happens when you start to feel that you are growing apart again the rose-colored glasses for everyone are oh this thing's gonna keep moving in the same direction at the same speed yeah that's not how how we as humans grow in relationships well and I want to put a try to put a picture together for everyone and I want you to think of some sort of X and it doesn't need to be a perfect X just two lines that are intersecting at some point you can look at those as trajectories of your life in another person's and at some point those two trajectories met and you met that person it doesn't mean that now that you've met that person you started dating that those trajectory line in just in line they are still going in their directions unless one or both people decide to course correct now let's say that you decided that doesn't mean that the other person is now straightening out that's why this conversation needs to be taken place so growing apart is going is and you should not look at it as this relationship is coming to an end or this relationship is failing is this there is some work that needs to be done in order to get both parties back on the same path here and at least a greater understanding of what the path is yes I think a lot of us go into relationships not really thinking about the five ten fifteen year plan right we're so happy the chemistry is there and we finally found that person that gets us and allows us to feel safe and secure so why am I going to worry about what's going down five ten years from now but guess what especially those of us who are younger hate to go there Johnny in our younger years we're going to be growing and changing a lot yes you know I look back at the person I was in my 20s and who I was dating then and now the relationship I'm in with Amy and I am a different person I do have different world views I have experienced more living on both coasts growing up in the Midwest now understanding that okay with this growth is going to come moments and times in your relationship where you feel like you're moving apart where you feel like maybe things are drifting in opposite directions and this could happen months from now or years from now but it is inevitable yes that is what we're trying to say here it is inevitable there's there's no relationship in the world that does not go through this in fact if the relationship isn't that's where I would start putting up alarms that's red flags there's something odd there because as I said there's two people they each have a trajectory it's an unhealthy relationship there's probably some severe codependency going on there if it feels like those trajectories have just stayed in alignment now we have to move on from this Hollywood concept of romance and relationships we're just once you find that one everything works out all the boxes are checked and it's smooth sailing there's gonna be rough seas how do you captain that ship in rough seas and dr. Christine Menke author of the book everybody marries the wrong person suggests a different way of thinking about this what a title I know that's great when you find yourself focusing on what isn't so great about your loved one you actually need to shift your focus what does this mean well instead of asking what's wrong with the other person ask yourself why am I suddenly so discontent and what do I need to do so it's not about look at the guy across the table for me look at the girl across the table for me and all their issues it's actually oh I got to put a mirror up and figure out what's going on with me first always because in the early stages of relationship of course your partner is going to contribute a lot to your happiness mm-hmm that's probably why you agreed to get in a relationship in the first place but you cannot rely on them to provide happiness for you forever that's just not realistic and we also can't blame them for not supplying it for us anymore well once again we're coming back to the idea of self-development and a lot of that is understanding your responsibility of your own emotions and well-being if you haven't done that well of course you're going to go into a relationship and putting that on the other person and then looking at them sometime going I'm not happy here and it's all your fault yeah what what you're doing is you are simply requiring the other person to change yep and that's a non-starter the only way that change is going to happen is if you're leading your own change it's not going to come from you telling the other person even in an ultimatum that if this change doesn't happen I'm out change happens when you're leading the change in yourself and William Doherty professor of psychology and head of the marriage and family therapy program at the University of Minnesota makes a good point on how we can shift our thought process typically what we're thinking is I deserve someone who has all the same interest as me why doesn't my partner want to do this what you're doing here is requiring the other person to actually act out of their character by requiring them to be a carbon copy of you and have everything that you like as well you're not allowing them to be who they are so instead we need to reframe this and the easiest way to do this is to say I wish my partner would go out with me more now you actually have something to work with you can actually ask yourself how do I need to change in order to make this happen or to live with it think about that how do I need to change in order to make it happen so that my wish from my partner actually comes true and instead of trying to pull your partner over to your side see if you could find the common ground and find something that they actually like you know a lot of times this is coming from a communication breakdown and these communication breakdowns typically lead to blow up arguments and then resentment building and ultimately your wishes and your interests are emotional bids you're trying to connect you're trying to get the other person to connect with you and there are going to be times where your partner turns away from those emotional bids doesn't recognize them doesn't want to participate in those likes and interests and instead of blaming them and casting aspersions on them and forcing them to change or instead of moping around about the fact that they're not changing see if you can compromise see if you can find something that they actually enjoy and go after that instead of looking at it from such a selfish perspective and just that simple act and effort of participating in what they like and trying to find ways to please their wishes often opens the door to that movement together well we always say it's the strongest frame dissolves the weaker one and so upon you leading and doing it your way that you would it's in hopes that this person is going to take after see take appreciation for what you're doing for this relationship which is going to have them step up their game but the other thing is we have to also remember that if you're listening to a show you're in the self development and you understand the change is difficult and you're willing to put yourself in difficult situations because change is important doesn't mean everyone else is and that's that's a very difficult and by you the and the and i've said this on a on a previous show though one of the things that frustrates me most is when i'm forced into situations that i'm not versed in what i'm forced into the unknown i don't mind going into the unknown unwillingly so i am prepared i'm ready to go i'm open to what's about to happen and there is i always say this saying of i'm able to flip certain switches that allow this to be possible and that but when i'm forced into those situations it i have to stop myself from from protecting myself and shutting down and that is a difficult thing and then so when you're expecting and forcing somebody else to follow you or to make these changes or to entertain you in these in these in this manner and then wonder why there's being so difficult about it is because they're you're forcing them into the unknown they're shutting down yeah and i i lived at the opposite side so you know when i met amy she mentioned that health and fitness was a very important factor in her relationship and and what she was looking for in a partner and of course in the honeymoon phase it was hikes and yeah i'm active too but you know business life gets in the way and and as we've talked about on the show we really hadn't been physically active we've been working out but not nearly to the level that we have been with the trainer yeah and and it's amy's not like hey i've been to the gym twice this week it's that's an important part of her life of course it's a very strong value in fact just this morning she was talking about how difficult it has been with all the travel and not working out in the toll it's taken on her so obviously amy wanted me to work out with her of course she sees the importance of it she values it and bless her heart she was patient enough with me and tried different activities with me so you know i didn't agree and enjoy to go to berries originally i was like no i'm not interested in berries and she tried to get me to go and finally i took it and i didn't like it and she wasn't then despondent or angry with me she was like okay well let's find something else that you will enjoy because i think exercise is important i'm willing to try and take a class that maybe i'm not gonna enjoy and trust me we signed up for class paths and we took a lot of classes either one of us enjoyed and then i started to get more comfortable in classes i started to feel like this is pretty fun and then i was like hey let's check out that berries boot camp again and what do you know different instructor allowed me to get more in my comfort zone and it actually clicked with me yeah when we think about this right this is the teamwork that goes on in a relationship when when you actually care about someone else and you feel like your needs and values are maybe not being met the caring side of you is like well let's figure this out let's get to a place where we can find some fun and find some enjoyment and find some fulfillment and and being patient in that i think so many people and and i'm just as at fault are quick to judge quick to write people off and if you don't get that immediate satisfaction right we live in the instant gratification world and it it transfers in every area of our lives yeah and it could have been very easy for Amy to be like you know let's screw this you're not working out i told you this is important to me but again a teamwork partnership based relationship is all right well let's figure out some other ways that we can get this working and that point of taking a step back and realizing that it's not just about the other person it's about us now when we learn to recognize our needs we have to speak up i know for me personally that i've struggled with communication it's something that i've obviously dedicated my life to at this point coaching communication conversations how to have difficult conversations being introverted having a dad who raised me who was also pretty introverted and conflict diverse i didn't have the tools to deal with this and i've been in other relationships really like you are a poor communicator what is this about why are you not telling me what you want what your needs are and i've had to work on this myself and understanding that when you can communicate your needs effectively and also listen to your partner's needs effectively you can create a sustainable relationship but when those needs are unmet well we're going to have difficulties if you can't communicate your needs well that's going to lead to even more difficulties so understanding that when relationships are growing apart it's in large part be due to the fact that we're not meeting each other's needs and we're now starting to feel a little lonely a little distant in this relationship you know everyone has to deal with the the daily grind and everyone deals with it in different ways obviously and the the escapism that you choose can be different than your partners and you would hopefully be able to combine those okay oh you like movies i guess i could go to the movies more and now we got movies together but there still needs to be some escapism of out of the relationship as well that's that's very important and you want to make sure that it doesn't whatever that escapism is doesn't spoil over into the relationship so like for instance if your escapism is drinking well it's not just drinking because then there's a hangover and then there's a higher feeling afterwards and now it's taking its toll into the relationship and these are very important this also plays a role going back into money because if your escapism gets so expensive when we have we have a of a problem there and those things need to be discussed but escapism is the norm for everyone everyone has their things that they enjoy their hobbies the things that allow them to play as adults and everyone needs to be open to those and cast no judge everyone gets off on different things but at the same time be respectful if those if that escapism those hobbies are bleeding into the relationship absolutely now how do we become that we how do we get that teamwork and most of us especially our the younger audience have lived the majority of our life in a self-centered place yeah this is what i want how do i get it i need this how do i get it and in a relationship it's different it's not about what you want how do you get it it's what's best for the team what's best for us as a team the we mindset and we want to end with this very illuminating study on relationships done at UCLA here locally published in the journal Family Psychology in 2012 Justin Lavner and Thomas Bradbury followed 136 newly married couples for 10 years and as you might expect all of them reported high levels of satisfaction at the start and even four years later here's where it gets interesting between the couples that stayed together for those 10 years and those that divorced Lavner and Bradbury found only two elements differed the first one was negative and protective self-talk when there were difficulties in the relationship and the second one was non-supportive reactions when one partner was discussing a personal issue they concluded that negative skills and emotions exchanged during problem solving and socially supportive conversations are a leading explanation for this effect whereas the commitment to the relationship failed to distinguish between intact and dissolving couples so your commitment at the start is meaningless how you handle the negative and conflict in the relationship is really what it's about because conflict is inevitable if you're negative and you are using protective self-talk meaning digging in your heels unwilling to accept any blame or criticism throwing it back at the other person when there's difficulties in the relationship you could imagine that this would lead to some strife now if you're also non-supportive when the other person is sharing their needs and wants you again could imagine how this builds resentment you know i was laughing about this when what would you say would be your estimate of the average first fight in a relationship three months in these days i feel like everything's moving at light speed so probably within a month yeah well the my point being that you know if it if it's if it hasn't happened for a while in your a few months in you've already invested so much in what you might see in that conflict might scare you of moving forward but you've already invested too much into like all right well i didn't like what i saw there but let's just hope that's just the one time and if it's happens rather quickly like okay i'm out of here that's important because all of us we it's hard not to look at a relationship as a like a bad gambler because of the time and effort that you put in you don't want it to be wasted but you have to accept that you are wasting time with this person and hope it for the best for learning to be better um because because it is time that you're not getting back i would say absolutely right on the head when it comes to relationships it is an investment yeah and you have to be willing in that investment to lose sometimes and and that's going back to the the very first concept we talked about today when to know to go into a committed relationship or not it is an investment and some of these investments of time and energy in a relationship guess what aren't going to work out they're going to end up in breakups so in the end long-term relationships are about adapting and adjusting to each other in order to do that you have to start with yourself first because it's impossible to adapt and adjust to someone else even though toxic people might try so we talk a lot about leading from the seat that you're in when you're feeling this discontent when you're feeling that things are drifting apart it is not the moment to cast blame it's the moment to be self-reflective and see if there are actions and conversations you can have to move closer to the middle because all you're going to do by throwing complaints and airing of grievances to the other person in these moments of drifting apart is actually build more resentment and that's the last thing you want if you're looking to save that relationship now this wraps up our navigating romance for this week before we let you head off though we have a question for you what are you struggling with the most in romantic relationships as always our last episode this month is going to be a q&a episode where we answer your questions let us know you can always find us on social media and we're always excited to hear from you you can send your thoughts by heading on over to theartofcharm.com slash questions you can email us questions at theartofcharm.com or hit us up on social theartofcharm we'd also love one other favor if you could head on over to your favorite podcast app and leave a review we would thoroughly enjoy it it helps people find the show thank you for all of your support until next week have a good one see you


Peter, I know one of the things that you've commented on about is this culture of sanctions and things. And I know you've often said that carrots perhaps work better. And I also know that you've got this ecosystem idea in mind. Do you want to? Yeah. Well, I don't know. Carrots and sticks are all, I guess when I think about the whole problem, I think about it as an ecosystem. You know, we're moving from a world where in the paper age, a lot of work was being done in this practical obscurity ecosystem. And that work was being done without our really being focused on it from a policy point of view. As we've moved into or been driven into an electronic world, that electronic world pushes toward transparency. It's just in the nature of electronic information that it tends to be transparent, wants to be transparent. And it makes us much more sensitive, sometimes involuntarily we become more aware of it when bites us in the butt. Sometimes we can get ahead of that. It makes us more sensitive to what was being happening in that ecosystem of practical obscurity where everybody could talk about a world being open, you know, the world was open, it was public, but as a practical matter it wasn't. And a lot of interesting important work was happening. So as we try to get a handle on this new world where practical obscurity is being sort of systematically killed, and I think it ultimately will be. What's happening is we're becoming aware of how we were regulating the system. And any system of regulation is going to use rules, it's going to use technology, technology of paper or the technology of electronic computer systems. And Linda's given us a wonderful sort of snapshot of the use of technology in a very meaningful way to try to address some of these issues where you're building the technology at the front end, but she's absolutely right. Once you've built the technology, there's a lock-in structure where people get used to that technology and it's extremely difficult to solve problems with technology afterward.  So you can come up with rules, you can have technology and you have training. Actually what's happened in the federal system, which is where I mostly work, is that we had a fairly simple technology that we were working with in the PACER or electronic filing systems. We came up and there wasn't a lot of focus at the front end on the complexity of what was going to happen when everyone jumped into the deep end of the swimming pool. And so the impulse is to create some rules after the fact, and the federal rules that are now sort of embodying the rules of civil procedure do that, you know, don't file so security numbers in court filings, things like that, but then implementing it becomes extremely difficult. And the tendency on the part of the courts, particularly in an adversary system, which is what was regulating the world of practical obscurity reasonably well, is to put the burden on the lawyers. So the tendency is okay, if lawyers file pleadings with social security numbers in them, they'll be sanctions, you'll use a stick instead of a carrot. I think what is happening is a recognition that that model, the model of trying to regulate this animal through an adversary system needs to be supplemented. It's not that the adversary system isn't an appropriate way of trying to get a handle on many of these problems, but it's not going to get a handle on people who don't have lawyers whose information is in court, you know, victims, third parties whose sensitive information is relevant to a case. It's also not going to get a handle on another problem. I think Stephen Schultz is going to be addressing a little later today, which is there's also a good reason to make public information more accessible to make it Google searchable, for instance. And I don't think that the federal system has done a particularly good job in that respect either. So you've kind of got a, the whole system is kind of built around a proxy of practical obscurity simply because it's hard to work in the pacer system. The stuff that should be public, should be free, you know, opinions by judges, many of the briefs that are filed by the attorneys. This is really stuff that the public ought to be able to access, ought to be able to access without having to pay for it, or if they pay for it, it ought to be very convenient and easy to get hold of. That's something that the adversary system just doesn't work well in. And we can see that with the implementation of sealing orders. I mean, the reality, I mean, and again, you can have a very strict set of rules and policies, but it's very difficult to get lawyers and judges to follow those policies if the enforcement of rules takes place in an adversarial system. Because an adversarial system is set up around the resolution of disputes. And if there's no dispute that this thing can be filed under seal, the affected parties, whether they're affected, in the sealing system, it's usually the public, but it also can be in a class action, some of the actual parties to the case. And there's an abuse that can take place when stuff is filed under seal that shouldn't be filed under seal, which is exactly the mirror image, just the other side of the coin of the abuse that takes place when information affecting the privacy rights of third parties that are not represented get filed in court publicly and accessed and abused in an improper way. And it's the failure of a system that's designed around the resolution of disputes between the parties before the court to address these interests. I won't call them rights because rights are only enforced in the context of these disputes, but they're interests that are important from a policy point of view of both the public's right and need to have access to important information that affects the civic dialogue of a community, as well as the individual unrepresented parties whose privacy interests are affected. And that is sometimes even people who are represented in a class action context, or lawyers that aren't focused on their own clients, or we have lawyers filing their own clients of security numbers. That's just because the lawyers aren't zeroed in on that. And what I argue in the law review article that I published is that I think we need to supplement this with more of an administrative approach, where whether it's informally through committees that the judiciary appoints, whether it's an actual administrative agency, at some level we're transitioning from a world, and I make an analogy with the world of environmental law. It used to be in the 19th century, nuisance lawsuits between individual parties could deal with all practical, serious environmental pollution issues. In the 20th century we realized that pollution, which is the externalities, the bad things that happen that often affect people who really aren't directly involved, those need to be our interest in breathing clean air, our interest in clean water, that those really can't be adequately addressed through this traditional nuisance doctrine. It's not that the nuisance doctrine gets replaced. It means that you have to have a separate agency like the Environmental Protection Agency focus on the effects of really many, many, many, many different groups of people that are going to have their interests affected by a particular important decision that's going to be made. And so I'm not saying that we need an EP, we have to have environmental impact statements whenever we put information online. But I am saying that the kind of focus that's required, the kind of rules that will be required, the kind of focus that I think Colorado did relatively well by focusing on, well, how is this technology going to affect the interests of unrepresented parties? How is it going to affect victims, for instance? Focusing on that ahead of time by designing better technology, by coming up with a good set of rules, and then by the training that's implemented, all of which are really, really, really hard to do. That can't effectively be done within an adversarial system. It has to be done through some sort of body that puts every, tries to bring as many interested parties to the table, get comments from all the people who have an interest in the matter, and then try to come up with something that makes sense from a public policy point of view. But it is, we are still far from understanding what policies, what technology, and what training is the best. But I think a recognition is slowly growing that the process of engaging in that conversation has to take place in a more administrative model where there's public comment, where the interested stakeholders all have a place at the table, and policies can be adopted, which really reflect the public interest, both in making sure information is publicly available, but also the public interest in making sure that individuals' privacy interests aren't being violated when it's not a matter of legitimate public concern. It's very, very, it's easy to say that, harder to do. Right.