record. All right okay so we went back and forth on the scheduling thing for 11.6 or so is everybody comfortable with the single list that's really like five lists but there's horizontal but it's still a single list nonetheless so any comments questions anything we need to sync up on today on that or I'm fine with it the only thing that annoys me about it is I think that I think makes sense an issue boards but it's not super clear so because things can have more than one label you sort of go down the list and then you go up to the next one and you're down the list but some of those issues are the same especially deliverable in 20 seconds yeah yeah I don't know I don't think it would make sense to hide them because then people would be super confused about which list they show up in but I think definitely pushing ourselves to use these features more like you said uncovers things like that where we're like this isn't great awesome and then so I'm wondering if it would be possible for sorry I'm wondering if it will be possible to have this this is the canonical board but each team organizing and having a one list only board because then we could replicate the order that you have in this one the only problem is that if the order changes mid cycle then we wouldn't be able to replicate that to the other list so do you expect this order to change in the middle of the cycle or stable enough responses to that so you can just filter it by front end and back end and UX on this board for the purpose of picking the next issue like I mentioned in Slack and second response is like thanks Sean mentioned where the order is actually maintained across boards so if the feature is working correctly I found a bug in the past but I think it's impossible to reproduce it reliably and last night when I was doing this work it worked perfectly fine so let's assume it's working perfectly fine and so I think if we reorder things it should just work in whatever board you use in terms of what's higher priority so it's a right well let me let me take that back right because the higher priority right now is per list right so there I have like six or seven lists going this way which I don't know how zoom mirrors whatever so it's just from right to left but yeah so so my thinking is that if we can always just look at that list and go down and I don't expect like Kushal to pick up an elastic search issue right for multiple reasons right I'm sure you can learn it and it'd be very good at it very quickly but I don't think Andrea you want him to do that so I just assume when when you know by the time Kushal gets to that he just keeps going down the list and looks at the next one and then so we can have separate assignee boards or whatever and so on and so forth so we still need to use pretty important yeah I just put a link example of how one of those would look for the back-end team because then everything in the left column is in order of what you should work on and then you drag it into your own column when you start working on it right assign yourself or whatever yeah and the reason assigned issues for that is obviously because people from different teams would be there but the big list doesn't really work prioritizing but for working it does because you shouldn't be scrolling down that list as an engineer right that you should be picking from the top or the second one if you definitely can't do the top one basically agree so so for portfolio management I don't care too much how we do it because I know I know back-end for sure has already been Sean has already been assigning different folks even for the last few iterations Yark has been doing the quote-unquote main portfolio management but like for example Sean did one which is like a bug or something so I'm fine if we continue to do that Sean but for front-end it's again there's only like Kushal is gonna be on vacation for a bit anyways and then so it's not like we have a lot of people so I'm like whatever we do is fine so and since yeah I already discussed this with him yesterday okay so so are you'll be doing the assigning it to himself okay okay so then they'll just look through and then just find the first portfolio yeah I think that's totally fine what was I gonna say does he or do you want a single person on the back-end side to coordinate with Andre like because I can do that like I can do that and then have everybody else take these yeah why don't you prefer why don't we have Yark I do that then like I said just last time let's not in that case I don't know there's like there's a couple moving parts Sean one of them is just this meeting because it's really hard to get I think Annabelle and and Kushal are like an opposite time zones right so if anything back-end is definitely not the limiting factor so yeah I think if why don't why don't we try Felipe then and since he's yeah specifically to be assigned I mean I cannot right so I'm looking at the board yeah so so so if I look at the board and filter and portfolio management yeah I think I think if Felipe starts that'll be great and so the reason I say that is I do want to try going into order but yeah let's do this just not let's just keep portfolio management pretty much separate for now let's just work on that for now as a first assumption and so let's not introduce too much change let's let's write that so okay and then so so let's think up separately but let's let's try to reuse this time because Annabelle can't do super early Annabelle let us know if this time is no good but Kushal seem to imply that this time is okay even though he won't be here next week but like let's just use this time for now going forward on the other comment yeah they'll check with him it's fine for him okay I think both people said it's okay so I think we're good the other thing I wanted to mention on the board in terms of just priorities so you can see what I did so it's the one obvious one is that all the security ones are in due 22nd and pretty much that's it right there's no other ones in due 22nd so and there's a couple I think most of the due 22nd or actually should be due 22nd because the due date is like the 23rd but what I want to these are all most apart from the first one all of these are back-end as well basically yeah that's what the back-end team will be doing for probably the most exact first half of next month which is exactly what we already have and then the idea is that like once they're done like you know we use that process and we get them exactly assigned like overtime so exactly so so the only exception there is just for leaving which like I was thinking like should we have also do maybe you make that decision Shana I don't really care but what I want is he's got a vacation coming up okay so what what I want to be able to communicate outside to the world is that plan is following the security process which is you folks you being security team at a due date and then we satisfy it to the best of our ability and we're clearly doing that because that's at the top of our list you know we're not gonna have a front-end engineer work on a back-end issue I don't think nobody's asking us to do that so so you know we've done all our due diligence of putting everything at the top of priority and what I anticipate is going to happen is we're just not gonna ship anything for 411.6 or that sounds very pessimistic but we're not gonna ship what we're gonna be shipping a lot fewer features for 11.6 which is fine right because we need to have that feedback loop and people already know that we're doing all this work and and then I'm sure Sean and Andre that you can feedback to your respective reporting lines as well that you know yeah we have all these direction issues but you know look at our board like you know this is how realistic it is so I don't think we need to take any action now we just have to just keep following the process until somebody complains and then makes a makes a change in the process so so that's my take on why put everything at the top of due 22nd and deliverable and then the rest of them are and then so I put direct pretty much for deliverable there are a couple of small things but most of them are a good number of them the rest are direction issues are bleed into direction issues as you move over so a mix of portfolio management boards that type of thing and then and then the rest you'll see is like stuff that it's hard for a product manager to prioritize but I wanted still to put them you know medium level and not like all the way at the back and so you'll see I put elastic search and technical debt so elastic search again I'm relying not again but for other folks on the call who is not Sean I'm really relying on Sean just to let me know what needs to be done because the ultimate goal if you look on those ethics is just to get elastic search working on gilab.com so I'm really relying Sean to hammer out the technical details and just trip away at that step-by-step so that's why I don't want to keep pushing elastic search stuff out every iteration I want to make increment the progress there and then I put technical debt stuff and then the rest are just like stuff that we need to to work on so I could I started putting like rearranging things so that's it's sort of like mix and match but then like we don't really have a board to support that and so this is easier just to put labels and just to work in categories so this might not work in the future but it's you know that that's my thinking I just wanted to bring that up with everybody so questions and comments on on this approach if not onto exciting things which is his page you're here yeah so so so I like pager's designs like 50% of the time and I keeps flip flopping back and forth so it's really funny but I don't think there's anything to discuss here because we're just going with Pedro's designs but but you feel free to click on these issues I have to clean up that I'm sorry but no no like I think that's the safest route right right right so I'll give a high-level summary or how I think about these designs but essentially I always really like to have designs that are really just like if you know get lab well and like maybe you're a very technical person you have like the like for example for boards you have label list milestone list and the signing list and you can mix and match and you can put everything together and you can get whatever type of use case you need to address it but if you think about it that's not a great user experience because all you're treating all three attributes as the same thing and it's not a great user experience because semantically labels milestones and and assignees are different things and from a user experience wise we should indicate that so there's always that tension and obviously I always go to the one where I just want everything to be flat and people figure it out and but Pedro is right fully fighting for the other one and so I I I wanted to further Pedro because I know he's very smart and so for in this particular case I am deferring to Pedro for milestones and making milestones a first-class citizen so you can click on the issues there and I wanted to give some background on that is because again we had a discussion about this in a product team but and Mark was calling them primitives which is like a great way to put it like you have primitives and you they're building blocks and you create these features right and so we have primitives and boards we have those three things but at some point I think we need to put the primitives together to make something first-class have a more native integration experience our template experience for example and in this case just change the milestone from a primitive to a first-class citizen and in particular I was gonna say what I noted to Mark in the protocol was that it's a sliding scale of the user right if you're a developer or a very technical person using those technical parts of GitLab traditionally we've had a lot of success in just building these primitives throughout GitLab and just like yes it solves 80% of the use case that people complain about but users are really technical and they can figure it out but we're like on in the plan area we're sort of in this in between right for project management these are very technical folks you know engineering managers product managers but as we move to product manage portfolio management it's less so because these are business users and so in talking with customers developers always love GitLab it's very typical scenario I'm gonna call there's an engineering manager there's like a product manager the prime manager says GitLab is not good enough I'm gonna use Jira I don't love Jira but I think it's it's what I need to use the engineer manager says I love Gillab why the hell are we not using more of Gillab and they're arguing with each other so to me that's just indicative of our feature set is is we just have to get to a place where it's a lot more user-friendly helping those more business-focused users where they're not dumb like I don't think we should just call them dumb or like that but it's like not their responsibility or it's not in their nature to try to figure things out they expect the tool to do things for them so so with what Pedro suggested I again please click through to see the details I think it makes a lot of sense when I looked at what Jira came out two weeks ago now I think with the and then it's like all over our slack people talking about it with their new boards I think that goes to show how it can be super user-friendly even with like so complicated that Jira is that they can make it more user-friendly I think we can do the same so that's why these issues indicate that so let me let me share my screen really quickly because I'm talking in in in okay so nobody saw the top okay let me share a couple of screenshots that Pedro put together or mock-ups of which I think is pretty cool so so I just I just wanted I want to talk about the milestone one let me see if I can find it so right this one so what you see here or why don't this is dumb Pedro you should be talking about it so Pedro I know you talk explain your design to the team I can mouse around as you need to yeah so here as you can see the idea is if you look at the top left corner we still have the board switcher you can navigate the boards and all of that but then right next to it you see the scope you see that for this case development it's it's scope to the dev needed label or whatever you want to do you can scope to a sine you can I don't know maybe in the future we will allow any kind of scope and this is more like of the definitive and more permanent scope you can change it but it's usually what defines this board right for us here at GitLab it would be for example the plan label or maybe another board which is plan and front-end or you would put the assignees if you just want to see your work or certain teams work but then on the middle you have the milestone drop-down and that is part of the board configuration in the sense that we allow you to define the fault milestone for this board so in this case this development board the default one is that one that is called Tanuki a milestone but having this drop-down allows anyone regardless of permissions even if they are anonymous users to see how this board how this scope looks like in other milestones and in the future when we implement the persisting the last board viewed we can even include this so if you regularly look at not the default one but another milestone for this particular board every time you come back you see that milestone but of course you have the opportunity to change back to the default and so having this control where you say this is the default milestone for this board but also be able to easily change it when you're planning or changing milestones because one milestone has been finished and so we're now working on the next milestone this allows people not to create different boards and they would just have one two three four boards for everything after this what we see here is yeah so this is the design yeah and we also see on the the right side that you have the add issues button and the 12 days left indicator and this is indicate indicating of the the milestone itself so when you change milestones you see the different dates yep when you said this so this is the development board and then it's already scoped to Dev needed and that's a label right mm-hmm and then so what is the one on the right I'm sorry I got lost there what is the one right next to Dev needed that is the milestone okay thanks yeah yeah and this is the main change that I'm proposing we do over the next milestones on the label that shows Dev needed if it it's multiple labels you would show the multiple levels there if I'm scoping it to plan and something else plan in front and for example yeah I haven't thought of the details of the design if we would show all of the labels or account of if it's a lot of labels I'm not sure yet but what's important is to surface the config as most as much as possible so that you understand like right now when you go into a board you have that little blue dot that says the board is scoped to something and you have to click in it to see and it's really not that user-friendly and discoverable so so yeah I will try to to make it as as visible as possible but of course there will be a point where we would have to truncate or collapse all of the attributes into accounts or something like that but yeah that's a good question Andre so so what I what I got away from this I wanted to highlight two specific things from this design is that the scope here in the milestone here so don't even worry about the lists which which are important but but right now in Gillab for board we have a concept of a board scope and then that board scope is pretty much has like five attributes label a signee milestone weight and author and you know emoji in the future so it's like six attributes and so I asked Pedro why why are you so in Pedro's design he's taking the milestone away from the board scope and making a first-class citizen quote-unquote in this drop-down and so it's essentially equivalent because you can still set a default and the default is the config itself so like I don't like that this I'm from the perspective and then it's like not flat right but then I do like this design because then you you you semantically are saying milestone is more important and allows you to switch quickly and then if you squint your eyes and think about it which I did for a long time what you can do here what you can't do here is if you have don't have permissions so this is a public board and you come to Gillab and you have this one board you can change milestones but me as the owner of the board I said it as to this default most milestone but I can change milestones but I can't use the same board and switch from plan to create right and so my crazy idea which I still think is an awesome idea in a different like dimension in world and reality but is to just make all these attributes exactly the same as this so I still think I still I still maintain that's a super crazy idea that I think is cool so let me just show you this because I actually spent some time in balsa on my clinic together and so basically it's this but you have this like for all like six attributes and so if you do this then you just set the default as the quote-unquote board config and anybody can come in and say your look you have a plan board and then you can suddenly turn into a create board if you're if you even don't have permissions to change a board config but you can you can change a view right away so that is very powerful but it's also really dumb if you're like if you're a new person to Gillab is like how the hell did I use this why why can I why why are you allowing me to change this so so I think it's a great feature if you know how these things are implemented but it's like a terrible feature in general so that's why I put this together and then like Pedro just shut me down with like three really convincing arguments so then I said I said I still want this thing but I get yeah but I really gives me that yeah but I really like that you explore this and and thought well so why don't we have all of these drugs on right because this allows like you having made this proposal actually highlights more why we need the other right yeah and and if you think about the first experience today of someone going into GitLab issue boards and they come from other tools or even like their idea is well I have already created this milestones I have issues in the milestones okay let's start working on this print on this iteration how to how do I do that because I'm seeing all of all of the issues okay I have to go in and I have to add a scope in that little button right but with with this we put milestones as like in a higher level it's still part of the config in a way that you select the default milestone but it's higher up and it's much more tangible and visible so when even a new user comes into a board they would see milestones as the only attribute that they need changing and the other attributes are basically an advanced way for you to create multiple boards and I think for most people they will probably just use one board and just change milestones and we have of course we are such a large company working in one project or in this case two projects exactly and using issue boards at a group level so we need to create all of these different boards for plan create right security verify all of that but for most people they don't need that and yeah this is I think it's the best of both worlds people can do both the crazy thing and be very very can configure everything but at the same time it's very easy for someone to get started with issue boards that's a great point Pedro I very little maybe never have a customer ask me about like board config or things like that there are issues that people ask about on occasion but usually they they they ask me questions exactly like you say Pedro like how do I use this they ask me things like how do I finish a milestone or well first of all like I hate the fact that we call it milestones because that's not what they are but they don't ask like how do I finish a sprint or an iteration how do I move from issues from one iteration to another one how do I close it out like how do I do and then they are confused that they have to create multiple boards for each new one and then this would exactly address that point because you don't create multiple boards you have one board and then you just change the default over time right so so you totally yeah yeah Pedro and that is a sign very very good thank you no thank you thank you for questioning and the only thing I'm not comfortable but we will talk in the issue is with the milestone to to implement this 12 milestone I think that's too far away in the future oh right so I know let's talk about that let's talk about that let's talk about scheduling let's let's focus just on boards because well because a lot of things because like we always want to do a good job but we always want to move fast so it seems like every every week we're getting different marching orders to do different things so this is this is how I see how I see it so we can talk as a team if you think this is the right timeline so you can you can see here right so this is about the the filtering when you're navigating and setting the defaults yeah I don't think default is there I think it's just searching and then we're shipping something hopefully this iteration about navigating to your previous selected board real-time which is I think a big effort this one this is pretty big as well and then this is the first one that I just put in from yesterday and then there's like three more three more ethics there Pedro that I've yet to put into ethics and hope to do this week from your designs right so this is where it slots here so we can definitely put this say above like this this seems like a pretty big one so yeah what I'm arguing is that the the separating the milestones from the board config and having that separate control from the scope I think that is one of the main it really helps managing many boards because this will reduce the amount of boards dramatically right right right right right right so that's why I'm as I'm saying that I think this is much higher priority than the ones the other ones that we have there okay so that because this is this this is both navigating multiple boards but also reducing the amount of boards okay so let's this is done yay it's merged these are hopefully this is like a small front end one view some replay yeah so this is back in as well so we could totally switch gears and bump and just like interrupt this or we can try to finish this and then slot this one even before real time and collapse and stuff like that what does what does Pedro and other people think like to me this is a pretty big one and it could maybe move lower but yeah what do you think I see I don't know I see the that's on not I don't know if you maybe if you want to have a separate epic for it it's okay but I see it between improving and managing many boards or inside managing many blocks let me just order Pedro's questioning is which epic is is the right epic for that feature I mean it doesn't matter and yeah I mean like the order yeah for me it doesn't matter ultimately order is matters right I mean like we can rename that I mean it's between between improving and managing I mean literally we can not do these two and I think one of these is scoped to 11.6 or they might not be let's see so this one's 11.6 this one's 11.7 so we could bump these two right Pedro and then if you can put together a design really quickly for either this or the scoping one I think we should at least have like three epics and it's like I don't really care I it's the way I'm scoping epics is just so that I don't want these bars going on to the future forever and it's for the benefit of like me seeing things get done and for like people like Yoban said see that there's progress right so yeah yeah okay so I don't I don't want this to to dwell a lot on this in this meeting so let me think about it and I will kind of write down a list of what I think so let me it's a priority and we discuss okay in an epic so so Pedro if I have time I'm gonna try that my next thing to do that's not urgent I should have time today to create those two or three more epics for that go along with this one and then but I'm gonna probably put them like next to here and then you pings me or in this year or wherever to figure out where this lot should be slotted in and then we'll go from there and then you know be be aware that you know it's the 31st so if you want something in for for the for the next iteration we have to move fast but I think we can we should definitely do that if you want to okay cool um okay I'm gonna stop sharing so that is great so so the next topic I wanted to talk about in the agenda is how do we split up the design for these so custom workflow and custom fields so I remember Pedro you said yourself and Annabel we want to split into portfolio management versus project management which is great um and so are both of these technically both of these are like on issues level and boards so I have no problem if we continue to do that split but I anticipate that there's going to be new features that obviously cross both and we're like these two are example features that are they have to be ultimate level features but they're like our issues and issue boards are not with ethics and roadmap so at least as a first task so do these still belong to you from UX perspective Pedro or because there's a lot of work here this is what I'm saying it's like yeah no I think the workflow your split makes sense but it's actually not balanced because portfolio management is is new and so we can only go well we can actually we can go faster but but like you know I mean like there's like a lot more breadth in existing project management so there's actually a lot more work there yeah yeah and and that was intentional not to be necessarily balanced because uh like Annabel is more and more uh working as uh like full-time designer that's that's not there yet and this helps us helps her have her own space but also work on every other thing for uh plan so I would say the custom workflow would probably fall on me if it's something for the next milestones and custom fields it doesn't matter I think it's okay um then then yeah it's okay it crosses everything in plan so it doesn't matter well like I mean we're gonna implement it for for issues first I don't anticipate we're gonna implement for FX anytime soon um so yeah let me just the answer is it's still Pedro and then you let me know if we need to adjust um anything um so we we're about an hour into our one and half hours Annabel has a topic here uh Yarka do you have to uh do you have any time uh constraint because I know you just joined in we didn't really figure out uh I'm fine okay so do you I'm sorry Sean I have to go in seven minutes okay I don't think you need me for anything that's coming up anyway so it should be fine awesome thanks Sean um yeah and that's correct Sean um Yarka so do you have anything to demo or you want to discuss uh on ongoing things before we jump to yeah I have three things to demo uh which is okay let me open the document did you say you have something to demo you can just share your screen and then you can type after yeah yeah yeah I forgot the three issues I wanted to demo actually so oh yeah no let's let's let's see it yeah okay okay yeah no pressure no pressure because it's in my current branch so I will just share my screen here okay okay so here I'm uh I am in uh issues in project that belongs to a group so I just go here let's check that how it's slow again no problem well we'll get lab by you folks new computers I heard there's some new computers ever released yesterday what is this puma thing isn't it like a sneaker like I see it and it's lacking like what is this puma it's uh it's um more memory efficient than unicorn which is the server we use right now okay okay it's also if you don't understand it's also I don't talk don't say sneakers so it's also I anyway what it's seeking to understand pigeon was there was there a macOS version called puma no no right it was like tiger leopard cheat no no cheetah right no okay no mountain lion a mountain lion that's right that's right before they changed no leopard no leopard so it's cats for a while then then changed to mountains or it's just like cities now right or california stuff california okay yeah california landmarks okay very global i guess do we have anything more to discuss i'm just starting gdk okay so why don't you take it yeah animal you can take it away it's sure um so last week I mentioned wait where was I uh oh the sub epics and how we were still sort of stuck on um sorry I don't know if you can hear my daughter screaming um on what we want to do for the design for that if we want to do it like on the epics page and and whatnot i'm going to share my screen if that's okay I cannot start screen sharing with all the other participants yeah I stopped okay okay so we get rid of this little control panel because it kind of I recently learned that if there's like in the green area there's a small arrow if you click on it it will go all the way to the bottom thank you okay that's better as well you can put it on the other screen which is not what I do yeah I have two screens I don't know I didn't do that okay so I was thinking I tried a few more things I'm not even on the right page I'm sorry I tried a few more things and wanted to get some feedback if possible um for the sub epics we were talking about the separate page if you want to do the organization there but some people were saying it would be better to do it on the same page so I don't know if you've seen this yet Pedro but I was playing around with a sliding panel which I mean it's not my favorite and also if I was a front end developer I would hate it just because I wouldn't want to implement that but yeah there's that but I'm a designer now so it doesn't matter exactly yeah that's what we do and then there's this other one I did which I think makes a lot more sense um because we don't actually use these tabs anywhere else I was thinking it would be like the merge request where you'd have your discussion and this is still the epic detail page the tabs and then there'd be separate tabs for the other things that you'd want to see including the tree um and I was thinking you could we could have a toggle kind of like how we show discussion and system notes and it would show the whole tree only epics or only issues and this is where you do your organization and it would show the entire tree from the top ignore this I'm not sure if this is necessary anymore um but so theoretically this would work because you could still see your discussion and your tree and whatnot and then obviously there's another tab for your roadmap and I was thinking it would be it would just show those epics that are I'm trying to think related to I guess uh it would show the epics that are in that are children of the top most current epic I think yeah I think this is pretty this is pretty powerful I would say because well I don't know like like I think like Pedro was saying earlier we're pretty special in that we we stuff a lot of things in our groups and projects so I think for us at least this roadmap view I think is pretty powerful um how I envision this is you would just show the you what you're showing edible is showing is what is highlighted is the current epic itself is that the idea there or is it something else yeah this close epics would be the current okay should say close epics yeah yeah yeah um that's that's and same goes for the I was thinking that what you show in the roadmap view there is yourself and your descendants only or maybe your ancestors as well at most but not like your siblings which you're sort of showing here right maybe both I don't know I mean there's space right so yeah and it kind of goes into the new roadmap where we're showing all siblings or descendants on the roadmap view and I had this idea which I still really like is to just show everything all the time and not have expanding collapsing going on everywhere because it's just really hard to get an overview I think and then I was looking at other companies products and and they do like crazy things where you know they'll draw lines from one epic to the other to show that relationship and they really don't like that yeah the elves they're ugly yeah yeah so this way you still see the relationship in that you see the descendants and it's always there um I think I mentioned I haven't looked at it since last week but I think maybe another drop down that would show I don't know yet but this shows everything and so that's why I was thinking I have it would show everything to you I think if we focus on I don't think we need to worry too much about the roadmap view in the epic itself because like if you don't show it to people people need it yet whereas did the the real roadmap view is is already there and has to be consistent once we create so so I'm worried about that like we have to we have to have something there whatever it is whereas this is like I don't know maybe another strategy is making this awesome so people won't need that global view I don't know just thinking yeah on that note Victor I'm also thinking in terms of implementation for this roadmap here inside the tab presents a whole set of challenges regarding like narrow or width and also that thing that we mentioned where the user will be able to scroll to see further down the line all that gets a lot more complicated when you have the comment box down below yeah I mean if it's a scoped view of the roadmap then it's less trickier it should be more stable and more right finite in the timeline but still so if it's finite it's here but if you have to scroll and then start scrolling horizontally and everything it might have some troubles and you're squeezed with the sidebar on the right so the comment box shouldn't be there sorry that should be there discussion tab and then what you're saying about having a finite it makes sense well since we're on this epic detail page I don't think we need to show the entire thing there's an epic yeah slightly simpler yeah slightly and then you there should be a button here somewhere where you you click and then it jumps to the global view anyways right and then like maybe the entire roadmap yeah so so I think I think this is this is pretty awesome but yeah the technical concerns are I think the go ahead Pedro yeah I think the I really like the tabs it's something that I have thought about as well but like not having the roadmap like having the roadmap here is you showing I think it's it's clever I when I'm looking at this the first thing that came to mind was when I'm creating like an event in Google Calendar or something like that it shows me which events are happening like right before and right after the event that I'm creating so that I have context time so it would be interesting to show here not an interactive view of the roadmap but a static view of like with this start date and this end date that you have for this script milestone so in this case it's May the 8th until June the 22nd these are every other epics that are starting right before or that are happening during this milestone and that starts right after this one finishes and so you could have a look and see okay so this is all that is happening and if I want I can click here and I go into the awesome roadmap view that has all of the features but I would not try to replace the roadmap view replicate all that yeah so I would try to have a view that is very that like that is helpful if we if we want to have it has something helpful here but that does not replace it's not like an iframe right to the no iframe that's my point about the roadmap between the discussion and the tree I really wanted to be able to do that but I'm not sure if we if we can because in some sense it like if you look at it it makes perfect sense to like if people comment a lot they have their own area to comment a lot if they have a lot of issues they have their own area to have a lot of issues and a lot of epics and sub epics but if you think about the way that a lot of teams work they they don't work leaving a lot of comments in in epics and they just use epics as a bucket for product managers and product owners to fit all of the issues that they want to group and so by putting discussion as the first tab we're actually like putting at a second level the most important feature of epics which like I don't think people will use epics for the discussion first in as a first step they will use epics for the issues the their children the discussion is a second step right if they are already using epics a lot and maybe if they work asynchronously or if they are a very organized company which they might not be a very organized company they they use comments and they have a thread of everything that is happening but a lot of companies maybe just use slack for all of their communication so are you are you concerned the epic you know are you concerned Pedro that they wouldn't see the tree when you first load is that what you're saying yeah that's that's my main concern so so and not only that is so you have the tree and also the commenting while looking at the tree so if you're discussing priorities um you're saying you can do that maybe we can have a fixed right so so there's a couple so the natural question is we just flip it but is that also bad where you showed a tree by default and then you have to click to comment this is why in the first design I did like to me an epic the most important thing of the epic was the descendants so I had it right there right and I kept hearing things about clutter and vertical space and like like Pedro just said we don't use the discussion tab that much and there probably are quite a few other companies that don't use um the epic as like a discussion panel that's the tree is actually an important part um what was it that we were talking about the epic should be the place where we're discussing like the high level of designs and stuff so we should be using the discussion more for sure I think it was hard because you can imagine there's different levels of discussion but I would definitely agree that when you're having a high level discussion it's unlikely you're going to have like a bazillion lines of comments whereas in like you'll get batch commenting 1984 there's a ridiculous number of comments there and then they go on forever so I think discussion is still valid but I do agree that maybe it's not as important so another thought I had is that you do show the tree by default but when you scroll down it becomes a tab and so it becomes like a sticky tab does that make sense like the merge requests tabs similar to the console merge request it might have been proposed but right now when you load the epic what I'm proposing is you have the description as normal you have the tree underneath it as as normal but when you scroll down past the tree then you have the you just scroll down and then it becomes sticky and then so you have those three tabs again so you have discussion tree and roadmap it's hard to explain I don't know if it's a good idea either but I understand the challenge that I have is usually when things get sticky they are already on the page so they just like scroll up and then get sticky on the top of the viewport so they already have to be there in the first place so I'm trying to find a way to get a UI where you have the tree and then you have the tabs coming a lot coming up and and then yeah yeah something like that trying to conciliate is it is it so bad that people just have to click a button to discuss or click a button to see the tree like if the tree is truly that important let's just have it as the first tab so you always see it by default and then you actually have to click a button to discuss sort of like in a merge request right the merge request you could argue that the diff is the most important thing and I'm sure people have argued that but it's clearly you have to click a button to see the diff right and do developers get to talk about that maybe I don't know I'm not a developer but yeah exactly yeah in merge requests like the the meat the meat of a merge request is in a second or third or fourth tab it's in the changes right yeah so it's after commits and after pipelines and then you have changes where you actually have what people will comment on right most I don't think you I don't think it's it's it's not bad we can probably switch yeah like I don't know to be consistently bad right but we can I think it's just to me it gives us license to to say let's make discussion lower priority and put the tree first I think what I would suggest is I think this is worth a shot worth a shot so as Annabel was saying that she tried to have the first tab as a tree and then the second as a discussion maybe we can already have that today with like an awesome javascript snippet that Andrea will write for us and then we just we just click in the like a bookmark in the browser and then we have that and we test that out for ourselves before going all the way to implement like having a prototype to kick around yeah prototype just for us to test I think it's such a small I guess because we already have the contents it's just putting it in tabs um well let me let me say it's no effort but it's not me who is going to do it so yeah I think there's some effort there for sure Pedro but do you agree like I want to at least take the stab regardless of whatever I just want to do tabs because I think it's an awesome design I'm willing to say that let's experiment do research blah blah blah whatever to figure out which the order of the tabs and what's default and I don't want to make it a configuration but if we agree on tabs then I think maybe Anje would agree that it's less effort to rearrange them and then do some fancy like javascript feature toggle blah blah blah to figure out which is the right one but if we agree on tabs at least we're going that direction right yeah I agree on the tabs being a a good approach and the decision the the choice is relying on the order we can we can even introduce the ab testing Pedro that we've been discussing on the UX calls that'll be awesome that'll be awesome and then check out get the release out get the numbers and then we we can check that'll be amazing because I think it's a good case and it's it's the perfect case right because it's gotta be like the smallest change you can think of that's like actually relevant to it's an unknown yeah it's perfect but we have to have a lot of people using them and I don't know if we have a lot of people using this feature we have enough like well I'm not a statistics major but I think we have enough like we we don't have like traditional gilab scale but we still have scale of like users okay right so yeah I'll leave that scale problem to UX research because I'm not a statistician as well that's why I'm just I'm just pointing out well you also have to consider what would be the success metric because or the metric to to track success because what is it is it people discussing the epic is it people accessing the tabs I'm not entirely sure yeah but or we can go with qualitative approach and have the UX research team grabbing that and and we can build in a feature where with the url or a cookie based thing they can just get presented two versions and use that to present to users and see what they how they react I think in this approach might be more beneficial to do a qualitative approach than than than maybe now that I'm thinking or just the success is not as easy to track because that's not a conversion right they just like open it see the tree right that's fine you don't promote it right yeah the language of AB yep so just one final comment and then I'll leave it up to you Victor is that I well I like like all of this all of these concepts I don't I don't want us to have like the tree tab for it to be I don't know maybe it can be different now that we with this tree tab but I'm still not very comfortable with laying out the whole tree here because if you're dragging and dropping epics and issues and things like that you're effectively changing time you're changing scope and yeah I think to be honest and maybe Annabelle you took a look at it as well the way JIRA portfolio does it with the timeline view and then they have a very like awesome planning view for all of this this is what I would hope we would approach instead of doing all of this work inside of an epic inside a timeline based view versus a tree based view you mean yeah have you checked out the the how a whole portfolio works Victor yeah well not recently but I think I know what you're talking about it's like having the timeline at the top right and then have a list of like the whole tree below it's fairly complex you can do a lot of different capacity and assign teams and see all of that pans out with milestones on top right and all of that and I think that's much more like that's what people will eventually want and doing that in this inside of the mouse in the epic itself yeah that's a bit I mean this is one of the reasons why I wanted to actually combine the two views right so if you have a list view and then you have a timeline view and you just combine them then you just have one thing and that one thing is exactly what you just described Pedro right yeah exactly um yeah so so what do you think about the animal what one approach we could do is the what we do have to ship is epics of epics what we can do is we can just ship something really simple here just show the children not even show the expansion and then focus on the maybe maybe I know we're not doing this for a while anyway so you do have some time but maybe we should we should focus our design energy on the roadmap view first and then see see what we can do there because we haven't even decided like how we're going to display the roadmap view and then think what Pedro is saying then maybe we can consider moving things around in the roadmap view versus moving things around here in the epic view um yeah when you say moving things around in the roadmap view I did look at some of the georaportfolio management things I watched I think they had a video um do you mean sort of when you see the roadmap you can sort you can take that like one bar on a specific epic expand it move it around drag and drop on the on the timeline view yeah right that's a really that's really complicated right yeah the list below as well because there's like a time dimension yeah there's a time dimension and there's also a tree dimension at the same time yeah I think that is obviously very useful it just seems like it's it's definitely complicated but is it do we all agree it's it's like a good feature it's a it's it you said it's useful so it is a good feature right but it's just like yeah it's probably more useful than our current milestone page or our current epics roadmap and list view which you were talking about yeah yeah yeah well I mean like you can't really compare like we have like we don't even have child epics yet so it's like we don't have that yet so it's so yeah yeah like I'm thinking like maybe maybe you can spend time looking at that for a little bit and come back to us and tell us like oh it's ridiculously hard to design it's not worth it now or does that does that make well yeah it does I don't want to say it's like it's too hard to design or you can't do it but I'm wondering it for this for this first to get this shift I mean if the problem is having the tree version on on that page I understand the concern there we have time we have time so like I like let's get it correct we definitely have time um I I think like the the per the current roadmap this is like scheduled to be worked on in January I don't know and then we can definitely delay it if we need to more time to design right like engineers are not the only ones right like designers can take time to so so let me just add something food for thought what is the thing that or what is the approach that we are most certain will help the users the most having the whole tree in the epic or having the whole tree in the context of the other epics and a time view you know well definitely not necessarily about effort because then we break down the effort into small steps but I think we should approach this more in terms of how certain we are of a certain approach well it's gotta be a lot of certain yeah yeah it's gotta be a lot of one right Pedro I mean we just said that like there's a tool out there and then we know that those are the use cases um customers are saying that they need ethics of ethics they need they're saying that they need to be able to plan them in time see dependencies across ethics as well and then the dependencies are gonna have to be times dependencies essentially right I mean that's that's a point of dependency right you can't work on it concurrently um so I think it does make sense to jump there and design that first um and if that totally obviates the need for even having a tree view in an epic or just having the most minimal version of the tree view like just your immediate children then then then yeah let's do that was dragging and dropping across the tree a part of this epic anyway well no this what do you mean part of this epic like the scope of this epic well yeah like reorganizing things within a tree was that even the scope of this epic is whatever whatever you want it to be nfl and the scope of this epic that I care about is ultimately what customers care about which is they want ethics of ethics children ethics what we have to do as gilab was we have to give them a solution that will solve it and not make them piss off because like not not give them something that they can't use but they don't know what they want right they they're using juror portfolio they're using rally they're using product roadmap all these other tools so they have familiar airity with that so what I'm saying is that we have time to do the correct thing um and the box that we should be focused on is just supporting epic relationships that's it and then so how we support that and all the designs and how does the roadmap look how does issues look all that is up to us so we determined that now and then at a high level we can decide that you know this you know enable you drive that and then then you can say like I want to focus on this as a first iteration then then we'll scope that out further but right now from a design perspective like we shouldn't limit ourselves to say we're gonna do this we're just gonna do viewing epics and then not considering anything else and it's it's my fault for it's my yeah it's my fault for just giving you saying like just design this animal because that's not correct right it's like I gave you this and then I said like design this epic and then I've laid out these things here and that that's not correct right like I should have given you more of a problem um and so that's an ongoing thing that gilab yeah I think I think that's that's important right yeah and and sometimes it's yeah like it's from product side uh um saying what the problem is sometimes it's other people like saying right problems or sometimes we get feedback from customers and we love what we think is a generic right uh yeah in this case I that it's about epic relationships and ultimately and this this is what I've been trying to argue for and defend is uh and sorry sometimes I can sound a bit too opinionated but is that um like I think the most important thing is to encourage good behavior of like okay you have one parent epic and you have child epics if you want to have like more than two levels I don't think we should make that experience great at least for the time being unless there is a high demand for oh no but I really want four or five uh epic levels and blah blah blah so more than thinking oh if this is this technically feasible and is this technically for free like we don't have a lot of effort to do unlimited relationships if that doesn't mean that we should do it so uh can is not should okay so so Annabel um I I do want to save some time for Yorca so Annabel if you have any other questions constraints let's let's let's stick them to another meeting or slack whatever but yeah Yorca take it away okay thanks Annabel okay so it should be working now I have it set up so uh I will start with okay sharing my screen first I will start with uh closing epics with promoting epics actually uh second so yeah uh what is this yeah this is just uh this is just an issue that is not in a project that is in a project that doesn't belong to any group so you can see that there is no promote suggestion which is correct now when I go to the project that belongs to you said it doesn't belong to a group so it's a personal workspace yeah yeah okay okay yeah so now I'm in a project that belongs to a group so you can see that I have here promote with with uh warning that it can expose confidential information I click it and comment uh you can see that uh the system notes was already added so I can click click it to uh get to go to the epic and when I reload the issue it should be closed yeah it is what's with that see you can see on the epic that oh sorry what's with the css it's like kind of the related issues is ginormous I don't know whatever oh yeah I don't know yeah you don't care you you you don't care you're back end engineer something like that yeah it looks probably some okay okay okay yeah sorry for interrupting this is the epic right no no worries this is the epic and you can see that it was promoted from issue blah blah right and so for yeah so for for this one I thought we wanted to redirect to the epic itself I don't have the issue in front of me but we didn't say that in the issue or we don't we don't do it for quick commands uh we don't do it for moving issues as well so we decided that we're moving we don't I thought from no no oh we don't okay I trust you more than I trust myself okay so if that's the case then then okay we do it when I when I moved like here with this button we do but when I do it with quick x with quick okay I can I can see the argument for not doing in a quick action because you could do a quick action for like it would be additional change right and then you can be typing other things and it's a comment box and you want to see your right that makes sense I don't like it but it's it's correct I think it's not yeah that's a that's a really good point okay so yeah no no please continue thanks for your clarifying I just remember that moving can also expose confidential information and we don't have anything saying there but it's less yeah I know it's less bad because it's in the same project but you're totally right Pedro and it's uh I mean it's in the same group you mean yeah it's in the same group and also if a confidential issue is less likely to be moved or at least I haven't seen it and in the lab world um no but actually I think you can from a private project to a public project right right yeah you can move you can move even outside of the group issue right yeah if anything it's worse right you're you're you're totally right if anything is worse you can move to any like all over it's globally right you can move global for moving yeah nobody has complained so that that that is some indication and also confidential we can create an issue for we should create an issue come and also confidential issues like a feature I suspect is mainly used by us right so if it's self-hosted there's it's it's more internal already it's controlled so there's less less of that but um yeah please please continue okay so can I continue yeah yeah sorry please continue yep okay so I will continue with the next sorry I was just gonna get them all sorry I was just gonna say we're at half past but I can stay on um if other folks can stay on yeah I have I have just two questions regarding this Yarka if you do you mind if I ask them now or do you prefer if I ask in the end ask now okay so uh if you go back to the issue uh what happens if you try to promote it again to another it will be promoted again because we can promote closed issues okay okay um and we don't want to do that yeah we should create follow-up issues yeah you can you cannot do that in a movie but I don't like that this is one of those things where I would argue with you like I think it's too too hand-holdy of a feature oh yeah yeah no for sure no I don't care as people promote an issue five times it's fine um so so what I was going to ask is uh compared to when you are moving an issue the moving adds a system note saying that it was moved but does it also add a system note saying that it was closed the issue because here we are only seeing one system note should we have another one I think I know I think it's the same before move issues actually yeah because when I move here I mean this is not a good test because there could be an edge case it's funny that we can yeah but in this case the issue was already closed um yeah it's still so I will do it I'm making this part on you well this is why this is why we have a demo Pedro this is precisely why we're having a demo it's to to iron out these so I have opened the shoe now here so I'm moving it come on okay you should try the Puma sneakers you will go faster yeah I will have yeah it was moved cool um okay so oh I'm just waiting for the issue for the ghost one yeah the original yeah yeah it's just only that it was moved okay okay so final question is when you have promotes there and you go to preview what does it show in the preview of it's not done yet for now it shows only promo issue to an epic and it should show the warning as well but with the same styling okay okay yeah we had we had a combo in slack on that one Pedro okay okay no no I mean this is this is Annabelle's turf so I will let her review and and hit whoever she wants to hit it I have a question for Yarka I mentioned this to Kusha but I'm not sure if this was taken into account but when you're doing the slash promo and you see the warning in in orange or something is that box supporting longer strings because if that gets translated to a longer string does it get like wider or do you know I don't think there's a max sorry I don't think there's a max width on that I've seen some just gross yeah yeah I mean I do but it's purely front end thing and I didn't talk to Kusha about that so there is no limit on the can and on front end I don't know but I think it's not limited yeah all right thanks any other questions for me no sorry sorry and thank you Yarka okay so I'm going to the second level which is showing system notes for closing ethics before you start Gerica sorry before you start sorry to interrupt I'm gonna have to to leave the call right now but I just wanted a highlight to Victor that I updated the the availability at the top of the document while we're on the call and Constance will be off for the four weeks of 11.6 we will have Fatih and Kusha on and on December 1st we'll get the extra person to work on portfolio management but I just wanted to keep you in the loop of that and see you all on the next call whenever thank you thank you so I will continue with this blank system notes for closing ethics so I will use this one and we'll use close close and you see that user closed and when I open you can see the system note again perfect I think that's close yeah yeah we just say we don't say reopen right in the other places no no no we don't okay I don't really care now I have to switch branches one second okay are we showing the status of the epic in the epic page itself yeah we have that bad yeah on the top but oh sorry I didn't see that okay it doesn't refresh yeah I don't think it even refreshes for issues so I'm pretty yeah it doesn't refresh for issues right now for for for quick actions we close in a button it should refresh oh one second if you were using web id yarka then you wouldn't need to switch branches yeah yeah I was I was switching branches no I just I'm now on the group branch I was just commenting I'm just joking don't worry I say if you use web ID then you're William from uh product marketing has a video about like he's working on like five different branches or something ridiculous it's pretty funny okay now we have to wait okay I think I will demo this next week because I would need to reconfigure not a problem okay okay so are you here are you here next week so next week I won't be here um I still want to encourage people to to have the meeting so uh Yarka you are here is this time good or not good for you I forget you said it's not good uh well not really because usually I am at home alone with alishko so it might I might be online but it might get a bit tricky with you okay so what so so what so just this time is no good or this day is no good or both like I'm just thinking like later would be better later my husband is back from work one hour later okay and then uh but on Wednesdays or just all days of the week all days all days Monday Tuesday okay it's perfectly fine okay so it's time for you okay one one hour later it's better okay so kushall is not here next week so why don't I propose pushing this back an hour uh does that work for Pedro and other people who are later in the day does that work for you Pedro if we do an hour later well sorry an hour later than today yeah because kushall is going to be out for the month yeah that would work or is kushall out for the month yeah that would work for me actually I'm behind one hour because of the light savings uh change uh don't you love so so so yeah you if you push it one hour forward it would be how it was one week ago I'm gonna add a meta comment as we close when I work in a real company or real office this is a real company I remember when setting up meetings I was really annoying like time time was annoying because people have meetings all day but this is obviously worse because of our time zone but what was always limiting was um conference rooms like I could never get a conference room and we would I would I would always do is just buy everybody lunch on the company dime of course not me but always have lunch meetings because that's when there was actually time and like people if I wanted like 10 people in a room at together it was always lunchtime when people were available and then I would just always feed them and so people would come um so for us it's not conference rooms it's just time so I find that interesting anyways um I will so about about the timing oh sorry I'm gonna drag this out even longer the you know we were trying to find a time for this meeting but we're supposed to be a little more asynchronous this meeting has gone on almost two hours so I'm wondering the the separate portfolio management meeting when you say it's used mostly for demos why is it the portfolio management needs that time to demos like how is the demo different than reviewing a merger class locally and looking at the interaction it's not different I think it's valuable to have the interaction that we just had um it's a that's a great question Hannibal I and so what I just said is not gospel truth because we don't do that like every team does it differently um and even within plan is this is just legacy reasons why we've had we when we started portfolio management a year ago we said that we're gonna have dedicated people working within the plan team and so it was very natural to just have a weekly meeting for that and then naturally a good use of time that time is just to have demos so that is just what we did today so I think that can be changed if you think it can be changed what would you think because we all had oh sorry yeah I think it was really beneficial for us in the past because we all saw what we implemented and we all could have our um thoughts about it because when you review major requests not everyone is involved from the portfolio management team and I think it really helped us to find some bugs before we actually merged it or even put it for review so I think it was beneficial for us I think another point is that it puts more like healthy pressure and adds more responsibility for the people that are developing the feature to demo it in a nice shape right so if they are not able to demo it it's because it's not it's a forcing function right yeah right um but I agree with you and about maybe I don't know if if it would be the same I think maybe some things could be lost but we could do a synchronous demos right yeah I would argue a video recording yeah like I would argue a video like maybe that's worth a shot because if you don't do a video recording just throw in just throw a branch at somebody like I agree with what exactly what Pedro just said like you don't feel pressure the healthy pressure like as you put it to do a good job but if you do a video recording you know somebody's going to watch it and it's it's better than the screenshot because you can you know just muck away a screenshot so maybe a video recording is why all the portfolio why does portfolio management need the healthy pressure and the video demo I'm not saying it wasn't valuable because it was yeah no we we needed a cross-border animal yeah no we can make this a plan thing if like it just so happened that we we had like a special like super team for portfolio management which is now that's breaking apart anyways it's just become a core part of plan so we've just had momentum going in with portfolio management Yarka's been one we've had a couple of back info student portfolio management Yarka's been doing it for a good number of months now so it's just it was just natural for us to to have around the call today and demo it but I I think I totally agree we should have the same thing for the other areas which is just we've never done it and so what's the next iteration process why so it would be great to shine it on you on the call so that they can offer their feedback as well but but let's let's talk about that in the retrospective in the in the retrospective issue do we have one already 4114 or no I think we do right yeah let's let's let's let's talk about it there but so in light of that Yarka do you want to try a video demo for next week so that we can do it but there is only one issue to demo anyway so and it's really simple also I can do it okay so why don't we do this I don't want to keep changing meeting times because I don't know if people will make it I'm going to leave this meeting time as this and I'm going to encourage people to join it so Yarka if you can't join the meeting why don't you put a video somewhere on the MR for animals to look at and then that can be totally a sync and then and then let's bring up this issue separately in the retrospective saying like let's do I personally think just video recorded video demos is a pretty cool idea and we can throw them on youtube right so everybody can look yeah sounds good but do I do have a nice application for video recording uh quick time and okay mojave has a shortcut to do it so but just yeah I just I just use quick time when I recorded the demo from the couple weeks I just use quick time and then you can even record yourself just just google it you can record yourself talking with the screen share so you turn on the the camera and it so records both at the same time which is pretty cool so you get that you get this exact same experience right you can look at somebody's face and look at their screen at the same time it's awesome um yeah you should add that to the the handbook I should I didn't know how to do it yeah I should oh yeah you're right we'll do the let's let me do the retro first so I'm gonna I'm gonna find that retro issue I'm gonna I'm gonna tag animal and uh and let's let's go from there all right this is way over so thank you everybody and I'll talk to you whenever we we talk brah