Let me welcome everybody welcome to the Future Trends Forum. My name is Brian Alexander. I'm your host I'm the organizer. I'm your guide to the next hour. I'm a cat herder for today And I'm delighted to see so many of you here today to meet another terrific guest talking about a vital subject We've been covering the subject of equity a great deal over the past year in the Future Trends Forum We've had many guests who have been exploring it from a wide range of subjects and positions and different institutions We've had scholars. We've had activists. We've had researchers. We've had academic leaders And one of the questions that keeps coming up is how we can lead an institution from the top to achieve greater equity in the academic experience Dr. Franklin Gilliam is the Chancellor of the UN University of North Carolina at Greensboro And he's been doing this in some really exciting interesting ways So I'm actually without any further ado. I'm actually delighted to welcome you to the stage and let's bring it up Hello Chancellor Good. It's very good to see you. Good to see you. This is your campus office. I hope Well, I didn't think I'd steal into anyone else's Well, you have some opportunities for that How is everything there? Warm humid and drippy That sounds like North Carolina right about now That's pretty classic. I hope you stay cool Chancellor I have all kinds of questions to ask and the first one is to introduce you to folks And the way I'd like to do that is to ask you what will you be working on for the next year? What are the big projects? What are the big ideas that are uppermost in your mind? well Of course, the obvious issues that plague higher education, whether it's COVID Budgets the existential threats to higher ed in general We've been thinking about how we can use the pandemic to slingshot our way past our competitors in other words I think the natural tendency has been to try to ride the pandemic out and Get back to what people would call a state of normal or something like the new normal We're saying How can we be different when we come out of this pandemic? How can we slingshot? And so we're looking at three new initiatives Among among many others, but I'll talk about three real quickly Not surprisingly. We're very much interested in integrated student success. We've been I say integrated student success and that means integrating The academic side of being a student With the business side of being a student With student well-being as sort of a three-legged tool Integrated now this is presents a challenge for those In higher ed may recognize Getting Cross-functional collaboration is not the easiest thing in the world to do with a university And so actually is one of the things we learned from COVID That where we had to have cross-functional unit By cross-functional committees and task force working on COVID people discovered g was maybe it's not such a bad thing working with folks outside of my unit And so we've been trying to imbue this into the culture Of the university and one of the areas we've tried to do it is an integrated student success We're typically focuses on the academic part of being a student the counseling course selection of credits and all that But we found that that is related to the business of being a student Turns out students don't know when their bills are due and they'll know what kind of financial aid is available to them And so on all the things that are tied up in the business of being a student and the third thing is Is their well-being As we know probably and i'm sure you've covered on previous shows mental health And the stresses and strains on students staff and faculty that here talking about students Really can't have a corrosive impact on their Academic performance the idea is this interrelated model of student success. So that's one thing we'll be focusing on Just one just one After that, we're going to cure cancer. But the second thing that we're focusing on Is hoping a new facility we call tate and gait which is marrying art and technology in the interstitial space between campus activity and community activity The idea here is to Create a third space a space where creative activities Can lead to a new way of thinking acting Engaging with our community and with our campus providing opportunity for our students who are building this facility 20,000 square foot facility That my admonition is I didn't want it to look like a university building whatever you do Don't make a I am sort of a child of the 1970s university architecture, which most of us despise appropriately And so I said, don't make it look like that. I don't make it look like a university building. And so we're rethinking both Space in terms of design, but also the kinds of things that go on in this space we have a We are a campus that does well in the arts particularly performing arts But the creative arts work generally and so we're using this The object based inquiry Improved to improve learning outcomes across a number of ways. So we're using the museum actually And now this adjacent Tate and gate facilities we call it To really engage our students to improve learning outcomes and to provide opportunities for campus and the community To engage in new artistic endeavors And then the third thing we're doing Again, among many others but One that's been interesting We are developing an e-sports program and we uh now I say this uh with some Deserved degree of humility because the last video game I played was pong Oh And that might have been in whenever pong was invented part being I know very little about video games But I do know it is a thing And we are building Some people call it arena. I said it's a little bit overstated and we're building a significant space on the campus Actually, I'll open this fall. We are Developing and we'll be able to offer badges and certificates in e-sports and the related Activities around it and more importantly perhaps We now are looking very seriously at how we deal with it in our curriculum and how we deal with it in our search If I actually have one research grant by our human performance folks Looks like they're getting but uh everything from communication arts to computer science to uh Music turns out scoring for these video games is a thing. Yes a very strong music program So these are three of the things that um, we think plays that play both to our Strengths on the campus on play to student interest and also we're going to have an impact on our broader community Well, fantastic. I mean those are three very different, but they sound in some ways Interestingly connected and that they're interdisciplinary and they have to do with space As well as on all three of them student success Yeah Friends if you're if you're just joining us right now, we are hosting a chancellor frank juliam. I'm sorry. It's gilliam, right? The heart Yeah, yes. Thank you. Uh, who's the uh chancellor at UNC greensboro He is a just telling us what he's gonna be working on from the next year And the theme for the today is to discuss equity in higher education and how to bring this about through leadership The feature transform stands ready for all of you I have a raft of questions But the more important questions are the ones that you would like to raise So again, remember just on the bottom strip of the screen There's the raised hand button if you want to join us up here And I promise you can join us even if you don't have a mustache and beard Although that does seem to be a dress code for today And click the q&a box if you've got any questions And as I say that we've got our first question and we just flashed this on the screens that everyone can see This is from david hul at national university And david asks could you speak more about how your campus intends to measure success within degree of student success And what could other universities and colleges do to mirror your success? Well, that's a good question david Let me let me speak to it in a couple of ways And if you can leave the question, can you leave the question up for me, brian? Absolutely. Hang on. I'll put it right back up So the typical typical things Whether it's time to degree We're really trying to encourage full credit hour Taking full number of credit hours It turns out at our university the things that typically predict student success Don't at most universities don't predict them at ours income family background and so What don't seem to predict them is how much support we can give the students Our first generation students. We have 40 or 50 percent collogial population I think uh We we've eliminated the black white achievement gap We our first year retention rate is around 80 so So for the population we're dealing with and some of this has been reported out in In the chronicle as well as other other report ed trust gates foundation We continue to think the secret soft if you will Is it is integrating and having integrated oversight Over these three elements we think comprise student success In other words, it's easy to focus on we need more counselors or we need more guides. We need more particular counselors Part of the story, but that doesn't solve the problem if your student hasn't sort of figured out How to pay their bill who wear resources or where to get emergency funds from or if they're having mental health struggles Who they can go talk to may have nothing to do with their ability to complete courses um But it does in many cases matter that our students have the kinds of uh educational and counseling support It's unfortunate because state at state universities state appropriations don't cover the very thing We think really matters You know god forbid you with me Matters and outcomes Times of degree degree efficiency retention Particularly first year second year. We're working hard We find that a lot of the students Stop out with Having difficulties with math Taking a lot around that And we have a very diverse student body probably approaching again 50% non-white And so we're finding that even within the broader model we're having to have some sort of micro micro Modules if you will for different groups For example latinx students present a different set of issues in the african-american students do then the rural white students do But all require The things that many that that a duke student probably comes Built in with when they show up on camp. Yeah. Yeah Well, that's uh, thank you. That's a that's a detailed indeed meticulous answer to a really really good question Uh, so thank you again Chancellor and also thank you for our question If you're again, if you're new to the forum, uh, david's question is a classic example of the q&a box So if you have any thoughts any questions you'd like to put to our guest Just hit that box type in it and we'll proceed accordingly. And if you'd like to join us on stage Again, just hit the raise hand button We have one recommendation came from the chat box from keenon solanero Who recommended a a non-profit in oakland, california called game heads? And I just can I just tweeted that out so people could see me And so that might be one one good source If anyone in the audience is interested in gaming and education We've had a series of sessions with different people over time Including with the a brand new esports unit at texas college at austin college Um, so while people are coming up with questions Uh, Chancellor gillian, I I'd like to ask one of my own really quickly You mentioned in passing that you had eliminated the black white achievement gap And I had a brief coronary moment because that happened so quickly. I wanted to come back to that Can you tell us? How did you do that? So many schools are are striving on that front, but how did you manage to put that in the rear view mirror so fast? I think there's a few things One, I think it's recognizing that our african-american students are black students Requiring different set of supports than some of the other students. I mean it should make sense, right? that if if Folks are coming from a different cultural experience that they probably are going to require a different approach to how they Proceed to their education experience So that's one of it Secondly, and I don't I would I don't I don't attest To any great scientific support for this But I do believe the psychic benefit of having a threshold of black students on campus makes a difference So even if you aren't Even if you are one of the only black students in a particular class When the class is chained You walk out the door and you see other people who look like you and you probably know somebody And as as a person who went through the opposite experience The only person in the classroom and the only person when you walk out the class walk out of the classroom They could be terribly isolating And that sort of has a compounding effect third, I think that are Because of this threshold students get involved and feel like they can make a difference There's sense of belonging and style So It is what we're doing in terms of student support, but I think it's also due to the Also, there is a psychological variable That I think plays a role But what is that psychological variable? I think it's just I think it's just threshold I think it's a threshold if you look around there's enough people who look like me that I feel like I belong Right in other words if you walk out the out of your classroom We're the only person of color in the classroom and then you walk out in your for your building that you're in And everybody's moving about to go to class and nobody looks like you You go gee do I belong here? I mean it's it's you know, some of these things are simple And you know the academy as is our want Wants to start with everything with well, it's really complicated. Uh-huh. Well, no, you've made it complicated Let's boil it down to some first principle. So Hmm Well, thank you. Thank you. That's a that's a For everybody else. That's a solid takeaway that everyone can can learn from right away and apply Uh, thank you. Thank you for that Um, we have more questions coming in and we have one from a good friend and uh Author Steven airman. We put this up on the screen for everybody Equity and quality are often mentioned together. What does educational quality mean to you regarding UNCG? And how is UNCG working to improve it? And how does that relate to UNGC efforts to improve equity? So I assume, um, well I assume he means the quality of instruction and pedagogy. Yes one hand and and equitable outcomes for students on the other um So We have introduced a model. We call embedded inclusive excellence It's a mouthful and we probably should come up with a more elegant name for it But we we've borrowed a few things we've borrowed the concept of embeddedness from economic theory Can talk about that We all sort of have our versions of what inclusiveness or inclusive And the last part of it is the part that speaks to Last part of it excellence speaks to his quality question But the pursuit of excellence and whether it's in those instructing the students Or in the students themselves pursuing excellence in the classroom This is about quality education high quality education This is not teaching to the world's common denominator, and it's not accepting that And so it's far from a place where an expectation or an excellence both in the classroom and in the students performance But embeddedness Is a different kind of is a different take on this. Well, what happens at universities? They and believe we have been doing this since 19. I was I think my first The professorship was in 1983. So I've been doing this a while Um Let's say University of Wisconsin Universities have done over these however many years. I've been in this business again. We get this call Every 10 15 years or you got to do something about diversity equity and so on So the university goes, okay We're going to hire a chief diversity officer We're going to give them an administrative assistant Give them with some money and we're going to tell them go over there and solve our diversity Now Believe me there's nothing against chief diversity officer at first say They can play a pivotal role if done right But I think it's easily easier and the evidence is it's much easier to marginalize those activities at universities The equity piece is around embeddedness. You have to embed equity in the DNA of the institution And you have to embed expectations Into the university That there will be improvements And so you therefore get at the professorial levels assistant associate school at the Anal level for leadership by chancellors vice president senior officials You get people who are becoming embedded in the university who Adhere to this value of inclusiveness. They understand the benefit of the to the institution of having a more inclusive search if you will for Particularly in this case I'll speak about faculty for example for faculty position You know, you can't pursue excellence if you by definition limit the scope of your Search to just people you know If you are Yeah white And it's not enough to go and ask your Your your colleague of color down the hall. Hey, do you know anybody? It doesn't serve the institution well Let's formally expand our aperture open it up to say, we're the best people now Go back to excellence Diversity for diversity sake is is actually harmful You just don't hire somebody because they're a person of color or they're a woman LGBTQ and by the way, we're talking about black white here But for me diversity and inclusion is across a number of dimensions I don't hear at this university So this embeddedness. What is it? What do we do? We there's three elements to embeddedness cultural embeddedness This can come from the top because rhetoric Is an agenda setting tool Right if the chancellor or president says, you know what? I won't be searching to be inclusive and don't bring me slates of just The same old folks from the same old places all the time So what I tried to do when I first came here from the first day I got here was to change the culture and to say We're going to be inclusive And we're going to pursue excellence so we build the culture around inclusiveness and we do it from a Leadership point of view with rhetoric. Secondly social embeddedness. So how social networks Can turn to collective action and they have to build them and it has to happen at the local level So this is a tree talks grassroots model if you will and we embedded them in research groups the faculty learning circles My pet project is leadership development. I think you need to develop the leadership That's the only thing by the way universities do when they want a diverse track They go out of the faculty they go out of their butts a bunch of assistive I think at a disadvantage when they come and they can fire them if they don't want them So I really press on full professors or tenure professors Deans associate dean The third piece of embeddedness is structural embeddedness You have to change the policies practices and systems You have to have goals and metrics you have to hold leadership accountable You have to train them how to search you have to think of a new curriculum You have to train your trustees So the idea is this again this three-legged stool of cultural embeddedness social embeddedness structural embeddedness as a way to pursue both uh quality and equity splendid paper on this coming out in metropolitan universities No, I'd love to be able to share that when it comes out. Yeah, metropolitan universities journal. Yeah, metropolitan universities journal. Yeah Thank you. Thank you And steve, uh, thank you for the excellent excellent question As always again, if you're new to the forum, this is the kind of quality questions that we get as well as the wonderful quality of answers So please feel free to throw questions in the q&a box or to join us on stage We have another questions come in from uh, kenan, uh, solonero That reimagined science and kenan asks i'm interested in your third space We have a third space event. We've used to create co-creative space and prompt action I'm interested in learning more about your design Uh, that's a good question. Kenan. Um, we are just beginning the design of the design Mainly because we just got the money for the building um, and I would encourage you the new director of the Weatherstone art museum here on campus is meeting this project a woman named juliett bianco He got her from the hood museum at dartmouth And she is really um Spearheading this project about these co-creations spaces One of the things that we're now looking at is developing low latency networks You can have uh simultaneous performances Somebody who takes a guitar lessons on zoom. I know that um the The lag makes these before Simultaneous performance is impossible So that's one of the other things we're doing and the idea is also to put these low latency networks throughout the community But I would encourage people to get in touch with juliett who can give you Much more specific information thing about being chancellor is you know a whole lot You know a very little about a whole lot of things so I'm expiring my knowledge quickly on some of these things I appreciate that. Uh, are you a internet to campus by any chance? Uh, I think we are That would help That would be uh, that would be great if for in terms of low latency. That's that's pretty solid Um, we have questions that are just coming in now and uh, we have uh video questions Um, including one from a long-term friend of the program george station at cal state monterey bay Let me bring him up here Hello, george Okay. Uh, hi, brian uh and chancellor. Can you hear me? Okay. Yeah Great. Thank you. Uh, thank you, sir. Okay. Um, so, um, you said something when you were talking about that structural lag of embeddedness That caught my ear and I was trying to get a question together anyway about How you and your colleagues are doing after last summer's unrest the killing of george floyd Every president and chancellor. I know of put up a statement They were some of them were pretty flat some of them were very good But everybody said they were being anti-racist. That's great. Um this year Almost everybody said something when Derek chauvin got convicted And all that's great too. Um, so and but when you said Metrics accountability and training of trustees The training of trustees is what got me there Because it's like, okay, that's pushing uphill a little bit. I'm sure in some cases. North Carolina Yeah And I'm I'm in the cal state system And I'm California, North Carolina, whatever, you know, uh, it's there are some similarities. So my question is How are you think you and your colleagues are doing? With all those great statements about anti-racism any progress since last year? I appreciate some of the things you've said, but Maybe if you'd also add in how do you think some of your colleagues are doing and where do does more work need to be done? So a few things and thank you for the question, George and I Many colleagues in the cal state system after spending 29 years in the uc system. So well, um First of all, let me just speak to goals and metrics Just just for because then I see a couple other people have Have uh Have asked about that. We're holding the and from the terms of faculty. We're holding the deans accountable and their reviews depend on how they're doing And the cobalt is all over them if you will So that's one of the ways they understand this is important and that's why the cultural embedded in this part the rhetoric from the top matters as a turn to struggle the trustees just had a retreat uh A week or two ago And they had got edi training And got it from a really good good group who I think and we have uh, they are I see some of the people talking about their political appointees And they're appointees here by a board of governors who are really Driven by the by the legislature and um But it turned out to be pretty well received Now we'll see there's still you know one training is not going to i'm not naive I'm not going to change everything But it's the first time there's ever been a training And and I what did george? About me it has to be the drip drip drip, you know You just have to keep after it and what typically happens is Universities do it or some administration at university doesn't the administration changes and they don't do it anymore So While it the conversations were uncomfortable to some degree You know, we have a student body that's approaching 50 non-white. You better have the conversation and um, so Word, you know, look, uh Listen, this is a An empirical question of how much? Well, if you make a we've taken down names from building We you know and we've used them as teachable moments And uh, we've done it with a conservative board. So it can be done But I think it requires I think it requires a leavening of our rhetoric from those to fashion themselves to be on the left and public form we're in so I don't want to Out myself a whole lot, but Political rhetoric in these discussions talking about the kind of cultural rhetoric I was talking about from an institutional point of view Uh exacerbates The problem So we said look folks, this is an issue. This is an issue. We probably need to address and solve It's not going anywhere. Here are some ways to think about it And I think I think it was more received The search training by the way for Search chairs in the university has gone pretty well A lot of people Have said they just didn't know You can take that for what you will george. I wish I had my glasses on so I could look out over those glasses Yeah, because uh, yeah, I've been in uh the cal state system for 20 years and I was in the Navy before that. So I've been on a couple of committees and yeah I appreciate Maybe not knowing how to do things well So those search faculty search trainings and dean search trainings because for those committees can really help if they take the training to heart Obviously But you know, it's one thing about I mean people in leadership into positions Which is I can tell them that we're not going to smile favorably upon you if you resent training But we've been we've increased minority faculty by I don't know 30 over the last four or five years and we've hired over 400 new faculty 100 of them new net new meaning not replacements And our research productivity has gone up by 43 percent. So Clearly they're not having Love to use that as an example. In fact, I will be taking that back as an example Thank you. Uh, so, uh, I'm just one quick follow-up on the training for trustees just to Dig in just a little bit on on that um Given that it's the first training and I and first in whatever that becomes um I'm wondering because of all the rhetoric again that Emerged over the last year during the pandemic Unequity issues but also on just the summer of unrest and everything that led went from that um Did the training actually go there with What we now call anti-racism or did it was it more like a 101 just to get the trustees feet? What to get started because they just you know, I think I think neither And um, I'm going to say something that is probably going to be unpopular but um Well, I I'm already in trouble so please join me I don't know if I can afford to be Let's just say um I uh, I don't know. I don't know about the efficacy or the Um And uh, I don't know about anti-racist any Yeah, I'm I and actually I hear you on that which is the part that gets me in trouble. So, um, I So I'm wondering what is going beyond the traditional edi dei. However, you know, What what went beyond it? I guess is what I'm really asking history of some things. Yeah, just didn't know the adults 78 years just didn't know because part of the problem. We don't teach it in the schools They didn't know things that had happened in north carolina. So you think of the Tulsa Uh People in Tulsa didn't know so we had it as you know here probably Wilmington in the early parts of the 20th century What is not taught in the north carolina school system? So you would think but so there's and and There are empirical patterns that you cannot deny there's data that you cannot deny Mm-hmm. And so part of it is showing the data Yeah, not not but not starting the conversation with You are to blame. I want you to renounce your privilege That's a not conversation non-starter It just is whether you think it's a good thing to do or not. I don't know but it's a In a group of well-hilled white folks to tell them to start any conversation by renouncing their privilege And and admitting their complicity is just not a good conversation started I'm interested in the outcomes Yeah, personally, I'm interested in students. I care about doing better faculty. I care about doing better communities I care about doing better That's what I'm interested in. I'm not interested in You know having a big kumbaya moment. Yeah, I yeah, I uh am I'll concur with you and not looking for that moment Uh, I think we've had moments like that where nothing else changed But everybody did say the proper kumbaya. So I'm not really looking for those um I'm hoping that there is some pathway in there where uh, essentially the folks you just described could actually um as Whether we go all the way and say we need a truth and reconciliation process or something else It's like at some point somebody's got to admit they did something wrong because otherwise they will It's like, yeah Okay, so Yeah, yeah, we might we might because I'm more instrumental than that I'm instrumental I want stuff done for people I care about so I started We want to be how do we get the prosperity for everybody? How do we get we do not want prosperity for everybody? You only want it for something that's hard to say. I yes. I only wanted for some people Yeah, I engage you in a conversation about okay. What's the future prosperity of North Carolina look like? And nor can this can the structure survive with large swaths of the population Be unhealthy and uneducated What's that? Imagine what that future looks like and what does it cost you? Yeah, okay, so I'm gonna actually get off stage and let other people come up, but I want to Leave you with an example of a university That actually admitted they did something wrong and that's Georgetown, which is where Brian is And so basically I know it can be done In conversation with white folks and so I'm going to get off stage and let other people continue But I'm thinking the Georgetown example might be something to look into it look into Thank you for the uh, thank you for the question and thank you for and for that last thought and all the questions George Thank you and thanks Brian for bringing me up on stage and chancellor. Good to meet you. Nice meeting you Always a pleasure. Always a pleasure We have we have more questions coming in and again if you're new to the forum You can see that we have deep questions and conversation goes in all directions Including back and forth and opposition and in a very ultimately positive way We have another Questioner wants to join us on stage and this is professor Jennifer Lee Gagné She's going to correct me if I've massaged her name completely and she's coming to us from mount st Mary college in the upstate new york Hello professor Lee Gagné. How close did I come? Actually, you did really really well Oh, thank you I'm impressed Well, um, it's good of you to join us. Welcome board. Um, what would you uh, what would you like to ask uh chancellor gilliam? um, I was really interested in the um In the comment that you made about accountability for the people in leadership positions And that to me resonated because it's something that we're struggling with at my small private liberal arts institution That is just getting on the dei um, the dei train and so One thing that i've been hearing a lot from students other faculty staff is how And who can hold the people above us accountable? when they Don't step up. They fall short Um, and so that was really exciting for me to actually hear someone in your position say Oh, no, accountability is something for for all of us. And so i'm interested in The real kind of tangible ways for which accountability can be Um, experienced for those people and also just as a side note. I'm team truth and reconciliation commissions So I just want to put that out there. So as someone who does restorative justice work I'm all about I'm not mad at you I do and I think it's important that people do that work. I'm not gonna do that work That's a fair point You know what because I feel like there's other stuff like within my field like I'm gonna leave that to people And I'm just gonna go ahead and handle this stuff over here. So I I totally get on that but if you can tell me Or give me some examples about ways that we can actually hold A president of a university or college accountable like that to me Would be revolutionary. Yeah, you know, it's that's a hard one. That's a hard one for me professor because I'm that guy You know I don't know how to tell some other presidents. They need to be accountable. Look they report to their boards Right and I don't know who sits on the board amount st. Mary's and What extent they're even interested in these topics, but it is a question it would seem to me to be fair to ask Of the board of trustees and say, how are you holding? First of all Are you holding the president of the university accountable? for tangible outcomes Not rhetoric not doing something on martin luther king day Anything something I mean look at that. I'm being a bit facetious here. They'll they'll get me wrong. These things are important, but tangible outcomes not Are the faculty you have one? People of color you have faculty of color. Are they progressing at the same rate? Are there is there is there are there pay equity issues? You have folks in leadership. Do you have a pipeline to get deans department chairs? Do you have a way to compensate people? For chairing the dei committee? Okay, you speaking right now to me because that's what i'm doing right now and having those same conversations like what is That's what i'm saying I've been there. Look, I did it at a time when we had nobody And we they you had to do it, you know, they came to you do fix it do it and we did it all at least I think there are There is a network a national network of folks at least where you could get some support um but but So for example, you're doing all the dei work. Are you getting an ad? Are you getting ad pay for it? Are you getting course release for it? I had to fight for the course release, but I didn't know you did But that's that's where we're at, right The chair your department has to support you I mean, it's tough. I look at a small liberal arts school. I mean I get it and You're fighting against a pretty strong headwind Out there and you're trying to you're trying to you know, take care of your own career. Yeah, right. I get that too. Believe me Been there been there um But at least you can raise the questions I think you know, I think you've got to as as a group as and and if you have allies great. I'm not against allies I think that what's interesting is the the board of training the board of trustees training that you talked about And I think that's kind of the level that we're starting at where I think that we need to have that level of training not just for Our incoming faculty or established faculty, but also for all the levels up to and including the board of trustees because I think that you're right that our level of accountability for the president is that board So that board has to know what they need to do and expect from him In terms of these issues and he needs to know what he needs to do and what's expected of him So I think that that might be a place for us to start having a conversation is what are we doing for the board of trustees and then kind of Working it that way while simultaneously Try to do all of these other kind of training So I appreciate that I really do and I think it's interesting And I know that we're apples and oranges in terms of all aspects of institutions from size of location and history and background But I do think that's a common thread For those institutions that are still struggling with trying to figure out how to do this and how to have equity But I do think The leadership is what's going to be important and thinking about how we get the board of trustees on board as well. So thank you Well, thank you so much professor Lee gunny and um, please say hi to mount st. Mary's right. I will thank you Welcome to welcome to the forum Friends we're we're at the very very last five minutes of the session and this gives you all Your last shot to put in a question or comment And as the moderator and host i'm going to fully take advantage of that opportunity to ask a question of my own But first I do want to share a comment that's come in from the chat back and forth About trustees. Um, it seems like the importance of training trustees is there Phil cats mentions that's tough to train them when they're political appointees As opposed to donors or or alumni supporters, which is a which is a good problem um, I guess a question I have for you chancellor gilliam is Trying to imagine this Work in the future And you've described closing the black white achievement gap. You've described hiring minority faculty by increasing the numbers by 30 percent Which is tremendous And it what happens if if this work goes on For say 10 years, what does what does the university like greensboro look like after all this has been done? That's a good question. I mean, you know I think what we hope for Quite frankly is that we Becoming modern university Right not an anachronistic university In higher education impulsions are anachronistic They all want to look like princeton in 1950 And we have to change the model Of what a modern University in a multicultural democratic society looks like And we cannot cling to a 19th century version of a 17th century european model universities are And um It means we're probably going to be organized a little differently I try to make i'm trying to make our organization flatter Therefore a bit more Uh a bit more democratic Uh, we need to distribute decision making Uh, that's hard. We need to have people somebody wrote in the chat. Well, let me say I thought it was interesting comment that well people You can get two different people who whether this is a lot of diversity Let's see how can you claim diversity in two people who look different and come from different countries yet? They're born into the same same milieu. Well, the idea is that you try to get a diversity of lived experience Now grant that is all in a western democratic capitalism. I mean, I get all that But there's a really quite different lived experiences within that milieu And that gives you different leverage different leverage on what we can be And so for me We look like a modern university not a not an anachronistic one So we think about the u.s. Census report that just came out And we think about uh how the changing demographic makeup of the united states how that's what ungc we went cg should look like instead of like uh, well, and it's not just the demographics. It's just how we approach higher education Right It's in everybody's interest You know, this is how we move together forward or this thing that's going to unravel And it's a bit tattered right now if you ask me I agree. That seems to be our conclusion after years of doing this Um on twitter you have a shout out from one jack shaw who is uh the avp for campus services at shepherd university Who says quite clearly and simply glad to see the g and the lead on this So good to see that Um, we are uh, also in the lead of being at the top of the hour once more We have run right through 60 minutes and incredible speed um chancellor gilliam Talking to you. I feel like i'm not just talking to a chancellor from Modern universities, but a chancellor from a future university And the kind that we should aspire to be What's the best way for people to keep up with you and your work and to find out about how your center and all these projects come along Well, I saw my my media folks from my university on the on the uh In the audience, so meeting or why or one of you if you want to put something in the chat that Uh, they don't trust me to do any of this brian. I screw it up You know, you don't it's a bad question to ask me I have some folks who are much more depth at this than I But I think they're still in your audience and They can up there. You put our twitter handle You can tell if it looks like dad twitter like that's actually me If it looks like real twitter, it's my twitterers responding Well, see that's a that's a great answer. That's a that's a chancellor's answer You point to the people who are doing the work. Yeah, I mean I do tweet, but I usually screw that up, too So Yeah, don't trust the leader. Yes That is correct You know, I never trust the man. That's what I say I am the man Well, and well, you're doing a great job as the man Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing an hour your experience your thoughts and for taking all of our questions So deeply and so seriously. Thank you very very much. Thank you Uh and and we look forward to seeing where where you take the g over the next year and we've hopefully Hopefully bring you back Thank you. All right. Thank you But don't go away friends. Um, I need to point out where Where the forum is going over the next bit and make sure you can see that And I do want to repeat my thanks to all of you for the fantastic questions so far and in the chat, by the way we've got uh edenbloss and uh Who is sharing some links as well So just looking ahead We have sessions coming up on education in a post-truth world We have sessions on active learning stem and equity open access scholarship Rethinking learning rethinking the whole university If you'd like to keep talking about these questions about how to train trustees and dei issues About what the purpose of a truth reconciliation commission might be on campus Or how to build and program something that connects stem and art We're happy to keep these conversations going on twitter. Just use the hashtag FTE you can tweet at me brian alexander You can bring in shindig events and of course on my blog. We'll be glad to hear from you If you'd like to go back into the past and look at our previous sessions covering a wide range of these topics Just head to tinyurl.com slash f t f archive where we've got about 270 recordings on all these issues And otherwise The fall semester is about to come upon us. I know things are scrambling right now because of coveted and delta I hope all of you stay safe and take care Keep thinking about these issues and we'll see you next time online Bye. Bye everyone


Hey there, I'm Drew and you are listening to or watching the anxious truth. This is the podcast that covers all things anxiety anxiety disorders and anxiety recovery So if you're struggling with things like panic attacks agoraphobia or OCD This is the place for you and I'm happy that you're here this week on the podcast We're gonna talk about addiction because I know many in this community are not only struggling with anxiety But maybe with alcohol or recreational drug use at the same time. So let's get into that now Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the anxious truth. This is podcast episode number 254 recorded in April of 2023 I am Drew lince a lot a creator and host of the anxious truth And if this is your first time here at the podcast or the YouTube channel welcome I'm glad you found us and I hope you find it helpful. If you're a returning listener or returning viewer welcome back I'm glad that you're here again this week on the podcast We're gonna talk about something that we really haven't talked about before because I know we need to I know that quite a few people in this Community not only are struggling with anxiety and anxiety recovery, but may also be struggling with alcohol or drug abuse Sometimes this happens because it becomes a self-medicating strategy that sort of goes off the rails and for a variety of reasons You may find yourself confronted not with one problem anxiety But with two problems anxiety and drinking or anxiety and drugs and I know that it's a big problem for many of you And I know that it's a problem that doesn't get talked about enough And I know that it's something that people are a little bit reluctant to talk about because there's shame and stigma attached to that And it feels like having two problems is way worse than having one So today I asked my friend Adam Jablin to join us Adam. I met not too long ago And he works in that recovery space in terms of drug and alcohol addiction because he has lived that experience He's kind. He's knowledgeable. He has been there and done that and there are many parallels Between anxiety recovery and treatment of an alcohol or drug problem and today is the first of probably quite a few conversations I will have with Adam here on this podcast, but we will talk about those things and how they overlap So if this is something that you have been waiting to hear about I'm glad that you're here today and we're gonna start that conversation in an open honest And I hope a kind and compassionate way and before we get into it and bring Adam on just a very quick reminder That the anxious truth is more than just this podcast episode There are a ton of really helpful use useful resources on my website at the anxious truth comm You can go check that out at your convenience take advantage of all the resources And if you're enjoying this work, and it's helping you in some way all the ways to support it can be found on the website At the anxious truth comm slash support financial support is never required, but always appreciated Thank you very much in any way that you do support this work whether it's subscribing to the YouTube channel or leaving a podcast review Thank you very much. I appreciate it more than you will ever know So let's get Adam on Adam's great He is somebody that I trust to talk about this topic And I think he was a great choice to open up the conversation on a thing that we have waited far too long to talk about So let's get to Adam's interview it goes for about a half hour And then I will come back as always to wrap it up in the end Adam welcome, dude My brother. Thank you for having me round two Round two for those of you who do not know Adam and I met on Instagram and we totally hit it off We did an IG live on Adam's account, and it was so much fun that Had him on the podcast it was a blast It was a but and I'm honored to be on your show and mint Did we have a good talk or what?  Yeah. Yeah, it was great. It was a great conversation. I really enjoyed doing it so One of the things that I want to talk about and and I'll let you get kind of give your backstory for sure But I know that there is a large number of people in my community that are struggling with substance use at the same time That they're struggling as I one came before the other it doesn't matter.  Absolutely. Thank you. By the way, thank you. I feel the same way about you. I told you I was devouring your content for months before even reaching out and and And I just love how you speak about anxiety about how you speak about what you went through with your own personal panic attacks Walk through it and how you walk people through those 10 12 steps that you and I even spoke about when I or when we did off the cup I on July 14 This of this year, I will be 17 years clean and sober. Oh, man Yeah, which I I'm very proud of that day July 14 2006 was the day I surrendered and went to treatment And I didn't you know, look, I didn't really know what alcoholism and addiction was Yeah, me and alcoholic was some bum in Manhattan, you know That hadn't showered with a with a paper brown paper bag and a bottle in it mumbling to himself Petting a cat. That's not there. Just kind of delusional Yeah Or an addict was like the if you ever seen the movie new jack city It was like Chris rocks character was somebody always go smoking crack or sticking needles in their arms and Willing to sell their baby for their next fix, right? Those are my definitions. So therefore I didn't fit that right, however, I abused alcohol I abused drugs a lot of it for me did stem from anxiety and Dot dot dot insecurity and dot dot dot curiosity and when you mix those three up, especially as a young young man Not having much fear and wanting to fit in, you know And you have some anxiety and you have some insecurity and you have some curiosity and you put those in a In a nice round tub and a nice course light and you slam that back and it just fixed something inside of me I didn't know was broken Right. I didn't know it was broken But it fixed it and all those old feelings and old traumas from being the fat kid growing up and Still even after I changed my body and I looked like an adonis, you know I was still that class clown comedian Let me make you laugh with me instead of laughing at me Always trying to make the room comfortable But when I drank or I did drugs a different confidence came out.  Let me you might let my muscles do the talking because I don't want them to see what where really am inside And then when I would drink Superman would come out So, you know, I pushed as as far as I could take it I go to Arizona State University is the number one party school and penthouse and playboy which it was and I Dominated there and it was sex drugs and rock and roll and then it was right.  What do you want to be it was like this is who we are This is what we do. We found our way. You're the next generation Yeah, and it comes with obviously some security, but it also comes with a lot of emptiness because you don't ever dare to dream and I worked hard. I had to be the first one there last one to leave had to learn every department in Is it 24 hour a day 24 hour a day seven day a week operation number one matte lace Manufacturing plant in the world. Wow over a hundred and ten machines over 200 employees Either three eight-hour shifts or two twelve-hour shifts with a lot of overtime depending on what was going on in the world And I had to learn, you know literally from janitor night shift quality control inventory mechanic knitting Up to design I mean with every secretary was doing what kind of yarns that were pulling in with how the inventory how the goods were going out Yeah, so I could finally, you know run the whole company to fulfill your destiny destiny and it was a work hard play hard and You know, we would drink heavy you would drink heavy and then my ex-wife didn't like the drinking so Xanax came in Okay, and I couldn't sleep from anxiety and worried and I had this going like that going on this I mean, I never really understood what running a full operation with was like this And so I'm thinking ambient to sleep and you know, then before you know it I'm getting a little older and wear and tear and I get an ACL tear and I get you know ACL surgery and MCL surgery and they're giving me oxy cotton and I got oxy's and I got percocets And I got Darvus sets an ambient to sleep. I'm thinking Xanax I'm thinking fat burners before I worked out and caffeine and a bedroom and and do out and drinking all the time And I just became this pharmacist and I truly became an alcoholic and yeah But if you want to know where it really stems from yeah from that anxiety and that insecurity of not being comfortable in my own skin Yeah, take away those feelings. Please. Yeah. Yeah, I get that and you know You hear that often people even if they don't have a substance use issue before they develop an anxiety disorder A lot of people wind up turning to that because it is a self-medicating thing So you hear those stories when people are, you know open enough to talk about them It's a very personal thing. So I don't expect anybody to talk about it But sometimes you hear things like oh, I accidentally discovered that I drink two bottles of wine every night So yeah, and they didn't real it's crapped up on them And then they start to get into that they feel backed into a corner now I have two problems. How do I address that? Yeah, so how do you go from first of all? It sounds like a horrifying ride my friend like you are literally trying to control every part of your body by Ingesting different things to get higher and lower and sleep and wake up and fat burner in the gym man I get that yeah So where did you start when you hit that that point where it's like I can't do this anymore? What that's so there were many many of those moments, right? Where I was like, I can't do this anymore I can't do this anymore, but that next day comes and the obsessions of the mind start And you got to get through the day and you only know that one way Yeah, and then once you put the actual substance in your body now you created the allergy and the compulsion Right so your body needs more of it. So there were so many times. I swore to myself today. I'm gonna stop today It's the last day. Okay tonight. This is the last pill with this lab This is the last time I drink on a Tuesday night, you know Only gonna be eight nights or Friday and Saturday and I can't tell you how many times I need these false promises and these these ridiculous, you know God if you'll just do these foxhole prayers, you know, you'll just take this away from me But it ended up gained the point that I had to walk into an intervention and Now there's a show and it's very popular and I've friends that are actually on the show as interventions I'm so proud of them. But to tell you the truth in 2006. I didn't know what the hell an intervention was Yeah show wasn't out and what it really is is you're walking into basically the people that love you the most gathering around and saying You have a problem. Yeah, we love you. It's time for a time out. Do you will you accept help? Yeah I accepted the help through but very defensively like how am I 28 day? I can't go over 28 days Like who's gonna be me for a month? I'm running the I'm running the business. I'm doing that. Yeah, mr. Big shot I'm the man. Yeah, it's gonna be the man if I'm not here. Yeah, and they saw it coming So they had they had it prepared and they're like, how about ten days? Wow, what ten days? We'll see if you even had this thing, right? Yeah, and and and all of a sudden I start negotiating. Okay, ten days We can tell people I'm on a business trip and and that was my bullshit, right?  I'm worried I'm constantly anxious about what are people gonna think about me. What is the projection of me? How is this gonna look? How is this gonna feel? I'm not really that concerned that the people that love me the most are worried about my life Yeah worried about the perception and that goes to show you where alcoholism addiction can take somebody. Yeah.  They've ever seen and what what they will see is There's really nothing wrong with this guy He's under way too much pressure with a family business with a wife. That's always on him with a new kid There's nothing wrong with this man.  Yeah I'm an alcohol and that I learned what an addict is and I learned that alcohols and addiction is a disease It's not a lack of willpower which started to make sense because I have willpower all day Yeah, marathons. I'll squat 450 pounds. I'll make two million dollars in a day. Well, this is nothing to do with willpower It's not it's it's got four qualifications to be considered a disease. You have to be progressive over time you get worse Yeah, be chronic. You always have to be there. You have to be Primary as in not secondary.  It's a disorder. Yep You add that fourth dimension back. It's a disease. So the medical community considers alcohol as an addiction to disease And I started learning that I was sick. I wasn't a bad person. I was sick And that's why I got a DUI and that's why I always lied about my drinking and that's why I always was covering up So now you take the symptom away, right? I'm gonna take my baba away. You take the drink and drug away and now we get to the anxiety Now we get to go. Why the hell am I always feeling like this? Yeah, why am I suffering like this? And it's it's the work that you and I have discussed, you know, in my Instagram live It's yeah, although I really think that you could take that protocol and bring it to every treatment center I've ever spoken to what you showed your chair to me, but but it is that inside work Yeah, and I think it's interesting because I claim no expertise in substance abuse counseling or anything like that or even lived experience there But I see there are overlaps the more people I talk to that I do trust with this subject the more you can see that there are some overlaps So let me ask you a question. Maybe can answer. Maybe you can't when you would make those promises to yourself This is my last Tuesday night tomorrow. That's it. I'm clean tomorrow and you get to noon and you haven't had anything yet What do you experience? So it's almost as true.     Have a cocktail tonight. Relax. You're not that bad. It's like this. It happened to me in rehab The second I said I'm an alcoholic and an addict the 600 pound gorilla literally came off my shoulders and I could breathe and everything made sense It was like the movie the sixth sense with Bruce Willis at the end when he was dead Oh, that's why he's telling me he can sing dead people. That's why she's eating alone I was like, oh, that's why I cover so much. That's why I spent the night in jail That's why I wrote 30 letters and I'll stop drinking. That's why I have a DUI That's an alcohol but then within that minute it was a but now how do I watch football with my dad? How do I go out and entertain customers? Yeah, how do I go and do that? How do I go and do that? Because alcohol and and substances were such a part of my life So what I'm trying to say is it's it's a it's a very sneaky city is voice in my head that when I would make it to 12 o'clock I would want to reward that I made it to 12 o'clock with the actual thing that I Substating from so it's like it's like you're crazy Oh, well, I think a lot of people who are listening even if you are I appreciate you sharing openly like this man I really do but that there are a number of people who are listening right now that maybe don't have a substance use problem of any kind But they understand what you're saying because it is the same thing that happens when somebody enters a disordered state of anxiety Like okay, I have to tolerate these feelings today and you get into it a little bit and then all of a sudden that voice starts to say Well, you know you did a good exposure today go rest for a week. It's fine. You get you deserve a break So yeah that other side chimes in you're describing a very similar process here the context is different but the process is quite similar I think yeah, that's why I think you and I to talk to many people because what I found is people have that issue with food And people have this issue with gambling obviously anxiety is true, you know When you suffer from anxiety you can't compare that to any to me personally anything I'd rather have a broken arm that they have that internal the internal But what I'm saying is that I do think more people understand that voice than don't understand it Yeah, you're probably right whereas I think it's amazing that you had to be told oh you have a you have this problem You know it's interesting and the parallel in the anxiety recovery world would be that's the psycho educational part like no Let me explain what's going on with you. You're not broken your brain isn't broken like this is what's going on But only knowing and I hear these parallels here that I can bring out as you talk Knowing is great and knowing lifted that weight off your shoulders, but knowing wasn't enough What had to go on top of knowing So after you know what you are it takes radical radical action For me I was very blessed that they showed me the path and they showed me the steps in a way to get clean and sober It was going to be a new way of living it was going to be a new blueprint I was going to have to change many things friends people places I go you know entertaining customers It was going to be a whole new blueprint But this way of life I could be clean and sober and in being clean and sober I could actually find joy I could actually be free and when you have those two eventually find true happiness right because happiness is fleeting You know you could be happy when you get a new car a week later that's just your car You could be happy when you fall in love but a year and a half later that's just your girl Yeah or girl or partner whatever but but joy and freedom are completely are two complete other things Like a little joy for living a joy that I could talk about anxiety with you Yeah Compared to trying to show that I'm some superhero and that nothing bothers me You know there's a freedom within that and I had to change you know I had to change a lot But everything I did was in such a beautiful healthy way for my for my lifestyle Yeah I love that you're talking about joy and freedom and it's interesting because again in this community of people who are listening Everyone's trying to shoot for I need to feel happy again I need to feel joy and need to feel gratitude again They're trying to create experiences because they think that's the opposite of being anxious But really the opposite of being anxious is is contentment or neutrality And what I hear you're describing and you tell me if I'm off base here is joy and freedom don't equate to nirvanic happiness They basically I'm going to guess that they equate to like hey whatever state I'm in at the moment is the state I'm supposed to be And I'm good with that and I'm going to let it all come and go I'm not I don't have to self medicate to create a particular state I can handle life as it is And that's a joyful state even though it might not be the technical definition of joyful of like yay you know or whatever But there's a contentment and a confidence I'm guessing you must have found in that I think the word I love the words that you use I like confidence I love neutrality I use the word joy because it was actually because it was taught to me Sure It's not even it's not even like but I like your words better there's a there's a confidence in facing the day No, I could be cleaning sober and there's a neutrality. I can I can make a mistake and come back to neutral not oh I'm so grateful. I made that mistake. I know but like I I learned I learned how to miss a shot Like Jordan and Kobe and take it again. Yeah old Adam was not the old Adam missed a shot now I'm just gonna pass because I saw I don't want to play anymore and this is too hard and you know Yeah, I mean but I learned how to come back to neutral Yeah, and some of those lessons I'm guessing come through I mean when you're going through what you had to go through that radical change in living Not an easy task man not an easy test but my hat is off to you That's something that I feel like you and I bonded on Yeah that shared that's shared experience of that was having hard It's radical. Yeah It's radical.  Yeah, and you and I you know because it's it's hard. It's really really hard and And you and I found a way out. Thank God. Yeah, I mean I'm grateful for that and it's interesting I don't know if you would echo this but to me I always use phrases like there was gold forged in those fires like yes At times I felt like it was on fire and walking through fire to get better But it was gold forged in those fires and it came with me on the other side and I don't know if you share that experience like Yes, yeah new Adam learned the things that you learned going through that experience stay with you So what did you call those gold? There's there's I always say there's there was gold you feel like you're in a fire right now you're on fire but there's gold forged in those Fires like that's gold. Yes. So so we would say so you see gold. I love that gold forge in the fire We say our dark past is our greatest asset. It's the same Same Same Exactly the same road just two different ways of saying totally and I think they're complimentary too I would think because a lot of that But let's talk for a second about I have so many things we can do like ten of these. I'm sure I would love it I love your vibe. You know how we can yeah, I love yeah, it's funny because we went on the phone for a while afterwards It was just just connect, you know But I think one of the things that people in my community struggled with is they realize that oh maybe they've started to self-medicate And maybe it's gotten out of control a little bit and it's making the anxiety worse now instead of better And now there's that I have two problems and there's the shame of the first problem the second problem now There's the shame of oh, I think I also have a drinking problem now I can't imagine and maybe you didn't experience that I guess the shame the stigma that comes along with that the judgments that come along I did experience that But I had somebody a great mentor I told you about and he explained it in a way to me that hopefully you and I could explain to To our to your audience that we can maybe lose the shame if that's okay Yeah, right look first off it's normal for anybody to want to feel better and and Media society billboards movies, you know Alcohol pills that they're everywhere, you know, so you were finding it's not like you're just some maniac that you were being Taught in some way you were just trying to find some relief but When it if you're an atom have a friend that's very very sick And we have to bring into the hospital something's really really wrong himself and when we give to the hospital the first thing they notice is Oh my god, listen, he has a hundred and forty three fever. We need to attack this first before we get to what's causing the Yeah, first thing they're going to do is put an IV in him put a bunch of Tylenol on him bring the fever down So now they could diagnose it That's all that's happened right when they started doing alcohol and drugs. Okay now let's just take let's take the fever Yeah, let's attack that Let's let's bring the fever down now the body's in a neutral state. I love that word that you use now Let's see what's actually causing the person that want to make them want to yeah to make them want a drug So rather than you know, of course, yes, they're dealing with two things But if they can look at it as it's a part of the process in anybody Yeah, right when I had a friend and they're sick and the fever went up you lower the fever first then you find out what's caused the Yeah, that makes sense. You can't you can't do the cause I'd love to do the cause right but I have a fever It's funny one of the therapists that I had for a while and I loved her curiously not a an anxiety specialist But nonetheless, we had a good connection She was also an e earners for the first part of her career and she told me and no uncertain terms The first thing we would do if you come into the you know We have to stop the bleeding before we could fix anything if you're bleeding we got to stop the bleeding So I love how you say that we got a first. We got to break the fever Yeah, right. So what we'll do is look we're gonna take a look at the drinking world detox real fast We're gonna figure this out You know, but bear with us, you know, all you did was add three to five days of detox and and And we're gonna get to you know When the drinking started and the causes of conditions but the causes of conditions are gonna lead us to also the original anxiety in the original Yeah, I get that so now you're being asked to do things and I think that it's there's really a you know these these Concepts but heads so now I'm gonna ask you to do really hard things which is change the way you live a whole new Way to engineer your life now you they have to take this thing out of it and that's difficult You're going through the physical issues of withdrawal and the detox and all those things you're breaking habits And you are forced to confront the very things that drove you to the behavior to begin with So that's a tough one. You how do you fix this by doing hard things? Well, what hard things do I have to do this stuff that made me have to do hard things? Yeah, so you nailed it you nailed it So it's you know so many people it's such a cool time for us because like you know what we're talking about now is mainstream We're not guys that are like, you know in churches basements and having secret rooms You know we we could actually grow audiences and help a lot of people and be proud of what we overcome So I've heard you know basically you got to choose your heart You know you got to choose like both ways are hard like suffering with anxiety and drinking and And and and popping pills and doing drugs and hiding and lying about it and constantly saying you're here when you're there And being restless because you don't know when your next fix this is irritable and mad because you need something in you and discontent What is discontent? It means when I'm here I want to be there when I'm there I want to be here You're restless irritable and discontent you have to either that's your heart you're going to live like that You can be lying and manipulating and possibly going all the way to stealing because alcohol and drugs start costing you a lot of money Or this heart which is you have to find a different way a peaceful way a godlike way a spiritual way A you know a healthier way of life There's a there's a sort of a I mean we're familiar with each other's a woman by the name of Allegra Caston she's an OCD special And she's she started saying suffer in the right direction and I steal that all the time from Allegra suffer in the right direction So in the same thing would apply in anxiety recovery So if you're dealing with both of these problems at the same time I do say pick your heart What it's really hard to face the things you're afraid of you know what is also really hard is not facing the things you're afraid of Because the consequences of that are for you they were hiding they were deception they were financial they were self-esteem For people with anxiety disorders it's a smaller and smaller and smaller life full of restrictions Either way you do it it's going to be hard so which hard gets you to a better place You know what Joseph Campbell's the hero's journey I familiar with it I tell you that I read it Yeah I mean still but it's it's it's very cliche right it's the the call to action and so if it's it's it's Mr. Anderson who's going to turn into Neo and the Matrix or if it's Luke Skywalker and he you know he has a dad And he knows as his Jedi hero of his old man his old wise mentor takes him on this journey There's a call to action and you have to learn a set of skills be at the force or you have to be downloaded into the Or if it's you know Bruce Wayne and he has his call to action you want to want to avenge his parents or if it's you're from Krypton But the hero's journey is the same all the way to the story of Christ But one of the reasons I want to bring this up was and it's a great illustration this one is in Empire Strikes Back Yoda is training Luke and Luke one of the things he does has to do is he finally has to face his heart He has to face his problem and Yoda has basically a setup where he faces Darth Vader And in this training protocol he chops off Vader's head and he looks down in the helmet and he sees his own face The real the hero's journey is you have to face yourself eventually You have to face yourself you really you think the problem is that dragon you think the problem is that kryptonite You think the problem is the anxiety you think the problem is the alcohol and drugs but really it's something internal That you haven't faced not that you're not going to get anxiety again not that you're not going to want to have a glass of wine again There's something within that you have to face Yeah and that's that you know for us we talk about in my my realm we talk about the fear of fear just I can't handle it it's too much It will overwhelm me I can't do this I have to run from it and you you're forced to face that and go through it and learn that Oh wait I was more capable than I ever knew I was Which I'm guessing you're probably lessons you learned along the way wait I maybe I didn't have to start drinking to begin with but this is the journey I was on So the journey I was on and this is the path I chose you know I mean I was like listen I was that kid that chose Arizona State University Because it was the number one party school so I always have to look at it knowing who I who I really am Yeah yeah wow I mean we could do a bunch of these and I'll probably have you back on because I know If you're listening and you will comment on the YouTube video or whatever if you're in my Facebook group We'll get some questions going because I know that people are struggling with this and they feel how can I possibly do both of these things at the same time How can I go through detox when I'm afraid of my own heartbeat right now and it seems like a tremendously daunting task So to have somebody who can hold up a light to say listen I was there and I know it seems impossible but you can do it You know I welcome the voice so Both of us both of us you know Joanna I you know my podcast will be starting soon but aside from that Obviously I'd love to have you on as much as I can because my audience you know your audience may dig me My audience will love you because I I've never met one alcoholic and addict that didn't suffer from anxiety I have not one Yeah Really Cormoran Cormoran there Yeah, not one not one you know because you know obviously it starts with fun right it always starts with fun Yeah There was there is eventually an underlining symptom that that's there and it's fear It's always fear and anxiety Yeah Your anxiety and resentment so I'm gonna have you on a but uh I'm very aligned and I think there's a lot of good we could do Yeah would be great we can continue this conversation for sure and next time we'll talk about I think what happens now You know we talked on your Instagram You said we'll give you a little teaser next time we have Adam back on come back and we'll talk about this but You mentioned you were having a really anxious day that day or a really anxious days what now you don't have the old I'm at 17 years. It's been a long time But you know the usual coping mechanisms aren't there you've had to build new ways to deal with that when it happens And I'd love to hear about that we'll talk about that I'd love to and by the way I love that we that's how it started because it was you know it's not like you Even when you get to know the path and you get to know who you are.  I'm sure you do sometimes Of course Yeah, yeah, it doesn't just go away. So that's the realistic expectations we have a lot to talk about it's gonna be great But thank you for coming on I mean I try we can go for another hour, but I try and keep them about 30 minutes We'll just yeah for sure But so tell us where if somebody was more interested in finding you and they can go to the anxious truth comms This is this is episode 254. I don't look on the screen So go to the anxious truth.com slash 254 I'll put all of Adam's links, but where would you send people to find more about you? Yeah, I try to make it as simple as possible. So I'm at Adam Javelin and all platforms, you know So that you know if it's Instagram Facebook LinkedIn, you know we're developing a TikTok But just you know look me up and and I'm you know I'm here to serve Yeah, Adam has a very friendly voice just you know for sure There's I had a little bit of trepidation when you first asked me to go on I'm like oh no it's another influencer guy But very genuine very down to earth very kind. I appreciate all that stuff Thanks for coming on if you guys hit the show notes I'll come back and wrap it up in a second and yeah, we'll see you next time Okay, we are back I could have talked to Adam for probably two or three hours today because the more we speak The more I can see the parallels between what he lived through to deal with his addiction issues And what many of you are working on today in terms of anxiety recovery And if you're struggling with both anxiety and maybe an alcohol or drug problem of varying severity There is a lot of overlap there and there are lessons to be learned in parallel when you're working on both of those problems So I promise I will have Adam back on and we'll have more of this conversation because I think it's one that needs to be had And I hope you found it helpful and useful in some way even as a starting point And as I said during the interview if you have questions about this or things you would like to hear Adam talk about By all means comment on the YouTube video or if you're in my Facebook group leave a message there Or leave a message on the Facebook post wherever you see me post this podcast episode And I will do my best to incorporate that as we continue this conversation of future podcast episodes So thank you so much to Adam for joining in and for contributing his voice and his experience to the community I really appreciate that if you want to find more about Adam you can just look for him Adam Jablin On any platform or if you go to theAnxiousTruth.com slash 254 which is the show notes for this episode I will have all Adam's links right there so you can easily follow and check him out And that is it that is episode 254 of The Anxious Truth in the books you know it's over because You're going to hear Afterglow by Ben Drake Ben wrote that song a couple of years ago inspired at least in part by this podcast And I appreciate the fact that he lets me use it the way he does for the last several years You can find more about Ben and his music on his website at BenDrakeMusic.com If you go there tell him I said hello because he's a really good dude and a great musician And as always I will ask a couple of favors if you're listening to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify Or some platform that lets you rate or review the podcast take a minute and leave a five star rating And even better maybe write a review of the podcast if you haven't already Because it helps more people find it and then we get to help more people which is why I started doing this to begin with If you're watching on YouTube like the video subscribe to the channel hit the notification bell so you know when I upload new content And leave a comment a couple of times a week I circle back and interact with people on YouTube which I really dig And I just love the support in the community over there So that's it again I hope you have found this helpful I will be back next week with another podcast episode Don't necessarily know what I'm going to be talking about but I will be here And remember every step forward that you can take today is a valid and an important step forward no matter how small it is I'll see you next week