Welcome to Education Matters on ThinkTech, and I'm your host today, Carol Monly. Our show is called Becoming an Educated Person in the 21st Century and the Mind of the Navigator. We're going to talk about what is the new educational destination for students in the 21st Century. Malama Honua Public Charter School is leading the way. If you want to ask a question or make a comment, you can tweet us at ThinkTechAge. I or call us at 374-2014. My guest today is Robert Witt, longtime Hawaii educator and co-founder of Malama Honua Public Charter School. The educational destination for students of this new charter school in Waimanawa is to achieve the mind of the navigator. Students learn to possess the values, dispositions and capacities of becoming caring, kind empathetic citizens of the world with responsibility for healing the environment, increasing caring for one another. How will this powerful concept transform educational outcomes for all of Hawaii schools? Welcome Robert. Nice to be here, Carol. You have such a long, wonderful reputation as an educator in the private school non-public school system as the head of the Hawaii Association of Independent Schools, excuse me for many years, but I know many of your interests include public education. So tell us a little bit about the origin of the Malama Honua Public Charter School. Thank you, Carol. That's a great question, and I want to back up a little bit to set the stage. I'll mention a couple of people who influenced our school's founding. Coming back to 2007-2008, we had been fortunate to have in Hawaii a top-notch educational thinker from Harvard, his name was Tony Wagner, and he still comes out here. And one of the things he taught all of us public and private schools was that we needed to change what we were doing so that we could update what it was that children needed to know and also be able to do. A little later, he fine-tuned that by saying that he felt that education needed to be more rigorous, more relevant, and more based on human relationships. So that set the stage, and I think public, private, Catholic, we were all hearing that. The next thing that happened was the Polynesian Voyaging Society made a decision at about the same time to take Hokulea and sail it around the world, and the planning officially started in 2008, and that voyage finished just recently, so it was a 10-year voyage, and many of the people watching will remember the Hokulea homecoming June of this past year. So at the very beginning, we had nothing planned, we had to start from scratch. We're talking about the beginning being 2008 or so? Yeah, so at the beginning, Ninoa Thompson, our master navigator, needed to form some committees, and one of the committees was education. If we're going to sail around the world, which we did, 50,000 miles and probably 50 different ports, we wanted to be able to share a message from Hawaii, and that message became the name of the voyage, which is Malama, Honua. So he asked me to chair— Which means? I'm going to tell you in just a second. So I was chairing the education committee, and we were meeting frequently. All the best educators in the state were there. The public school superintendent was there, the president of the University of Hawaii, Diana Oshiro, one of the top notch charter school educators in Hawaii, and so on. There were about 20 of us, and we loved the notion of Malama, Honua, and that was what inspired us. To explain to all of you listening in, Malama, Honua means two things. It means take care of island earth and take better care of one another. So it's a dual concept. If you want to translate that into more contemporary terms, what this voyage was about was environmental justice and social justice. So Malama, Honua embedded those two concepts in everything that we did. So that committee planned what we would do when we met school people in particular in all these ports around the world. About the same time in 2009, Ninoa, who was at these meetings, said one day, you know, I don't feel good about what we're doing. We're planning all these things for children all around the world, but what are we doing for the children in Hawaii? And he was profoundly concerned about it. So I met with him privately, and I said, maybe what we'll do is we'll do the voyage, and at the same time, we'll start a school that would embody the values of the voyage. And he said, do you promise to do that? And I said, yeah, I think I will. So that was the origin of Malama, Honua Public Charter School. Half a dozen of us worked on the planning for, gosh, five, six, seven years. It took a long time. Ninoa's mother, Laura Thompson, was involved. James Coshibo was involved. Jenna Eshii was involved and so forth. And it involved getting a program designed that would present an educational model that was totally different. And we came up with a notion using Ninoa as our model of endowing children with the mind of the navigator. And so at Malama Honua Charter School today, the students are embracing that notion of how to live their lives. They are learning to take responsibility for the environment and they're learning to take responsibility for one another. So whatever your definition of 20th century education might have been, whatever your definition of what an educated person would be able to do 20th century has all changed. We're really focusing much more on qualities like empathy, compassion, kindness, caring. And the Dalai Lama's visit here a few years ago reinforced the importance of doing just that. And one of the sponsors for The Voyage, who hosted us in Cape Town actually, was Archbishop Desmond Tutu. And his vision for the future was nicely integrated into this idea as well. So we had lots of inspiration and Tony Wagner was part of it. Another man named Bob Lenz, who came out here from San Francisco, helped us address the question of a rigorous 21st century education. And he introduced us to something called project-based learning, where students were not given textbooks and asked to memorize anything. What they were given was a problem, a series of problems, and they became problem solvers. The problem could be environmentally based, it could be socially based, and the children had to work together in teams to solve the problem. And that's hard work, Carol. Well, let me thank you for that wonderful introduction, but let me get a sense of the school itself. So what grades are we talking about? And it's a public charter school environment, and there's just one location right now. Yeah. We looked at all the possibilities. Let's start a high school, let's start a middle school, let's start an elementary school. And I know I was strongly of the opinion that we would start with the youngest children. And I'm sure the influence there was his father, Pinky Thompson, who was a lifelong early education advocate. So we said we'll start with one or two grades and we'll add a grade each year. We felt that Waimanalo would be our community because we felt that the population of Hawaiians and part Hawaiians there would relate to what we were doing. So we established a campus on rented facilities in Waimanalo. We're looking forward to finding a permanent campus, and we're at a church right on the main road, and then we are also on another location, so we have two campuses now. Is that grade? So first through fifth grade, I believe, and children are 65 or 70 percent coming from Waimanalo. And it's free because it's a public school? It's free. It's a public school. How many students do you have? Probably 130. And it's been difficult every step of the way. We have a wonderful principal who we found early on. Her name is Denise Espana. And Denise was able to recruit teachers right from Waimanalo, and so they came from the community. And then we imbued the program with a significant amount of Hawaiian cultural protocol. And so it was rigorous because of project-based learning, but it was relevant because it spoke to the interests of these children. So how does the curriculum differ from, let's say, a regular public school? Yeah. I remember when I went to public school, and I was in the third grade, and I remember spending that whole year looking out the window. I had no idea what the teacher was saying, and I didn't care. So our children don't do that. They spend way more time outdoors. In fact, I would say more than 50% of their instructional time is spent solving problems out of doors in the Waimanalo community. Like? Yeah. Give us some examples. Let me back up and say that because of the influence of Ninoa, who was the co-founder of the school, and because his teacher, when he learned navigation, was a man named Mao from Micronesia. We asked Ninoa, where did Mao take you to learn navigation? And he showed us 14 places where they had gone regularly to learn. So we adopted those 14 places, and we called them our learning sites, our sacred sites. So the children go to these places over and over again. Specifically, what do they do? Well, they're learning to grow food for one thing. You know, when I was still working, Jenna and I started a program called Grow Hawaii, which was the first time anybody suggested using local food in school cafeterias. Our children take this one step further. They grow food. Wonderful. And they eat it. So you serve it in the school cafeteria? We don't have an official food program. I think mostly the children are able to give the vegetables away to their family members. And they're working very closely with SITAR, which is the College of Tropical Agriculture, and they have a site in Waimanalo where our children and teachers go once a week. So they're learning from the professionals. And they're very good at growing things. And they're good at caring for sites that I mentioned before. Okay. Briefly, how does a charter school differ from a public school? Oh, yes. The charter school started in Hawaii about 1998, I believe, under Governor Cayetano's administration. And it required a law being passed which would permit a group of public people like ourselves to propose the outline and design for a school, which we did. As opposed to... As opposed to going to the neighborhood public school, a parent could choose to send their child to a charter school. It was a very difficult process. It took us a couple years to get through it. And we're completely public. We follow all the public rules. We follow public policies. And the state pays per pupil. Aha. Okay. Well, on that interesting note, we're going to take a short break. This is my guest, Robert Witt, who is one of the co-founders of Malama Honua Public Charter School. And we'll be right back with Education Matters. Thank you. Rock by and nice and what's happening, guys? They told me they were making music. Hi. I'm Ethan Allen, host on Think Tech Hawaii of Pacific Partnerships in Education. Every other Tuesday afternoon at 3 p.m., I hope you'll join us as we explore the value, the accomplishments, and the challenges of education here in the Pacific Islands. Welcome back. This is Carol Monly on Education Matters. And today with my guest, Robert Witt. And we're talking about Malama Honua Charter Public Schools. So we were just talking about how the origins of the school and the much bigger picture, broader picture of charter schools in general. We have some pictures we'd like to show. And maybe, Robert, you can tell us what we're seeing. So, of course, this is, we're looking at a picture. It looks like students. I think that's a tarot patch. Uh-huh. And they're cultivating tarot in their gardening program. And this is part of the curriculum? Absolutely. Learning to care for gardens, to grow one's own food, learning to prepare food, and learning to give fresh vegetables to the community. And where exactly is that tarot patch? Well, that I don't know. Would it be near the school? Near Juan Malo? Yes. Okay. And what age group? They look like maybe junior high? I would say those would be fourth and fifth graders. Fourth and fifth graders. Okay. Right, because of school. We only go up to fifth grade. Okay. Next, we have another slide. Oh, this is an interesting slide. This is a picture of groups of students seated. And what are they doing? So the Hawaiian cultural protocol, that's a big part of what we do. And we said earlier that Malama Honua Charter School is leading the way. I would also say that other Hawaiian cultural charter schools are also leading the way. When you embed a cultural protocol and cultural history in the program, the children learn chants. Oli, they learn hula. They have their gourds, I think, from what I can see. And they start each day. And they end each day with a formal Hawaiian culture protocol. Do they learn Hawaiian language, too? They're learning Hawaiian language. And when Ninoa and I were there the other day, they also spoke to us and sang to us in Maori. Wow. So they are possibly developing two additional languages. And again, other Hawaiian cultural charter schools do the same thing. So I see this group of Hawaiian cultural charter schools, including Malama Honua, as being the leading edge for educational innovation in Hawaii. And next, we have Aha. Well, that was a recent visit. And the important part would be the person in the middle. And she is our principal, our po'o. And Denise Espana was born and raised here in Hawaii. We found her in Seattle about six or seven years ago. And she expressed an interest in coming home. She's a Punahou graduate. And she was working in public education in Seattle. And so every time I went up to Seattle, we would talk and long story short, she moved here and started the school from scratch. Wow. And then on her left is Ninoa Thompson. Ninoa Thompson. And you on the right? Yes. Okay. Well, that's wonderful. Okay. Do we have any other... Oh, one more. Yeah. Well, again, they're in the garden. Looks like they're... Students are gardening. Gardening and farming. Yeah. And it just proves the point that they're learning a lot outdoors. When you do project-based learning, you might say, well, that just sounds like fun. But in the process of doing whatever they're doing, they're learning so much. And then one more last picture of a student learning to tie knots. Tie knots. These students, when they get to the fifth grade, they have to provide evidence of what they have learned. It's called an exhibition. And the fifth graders are preparing exhibitions and presenting their exhibitions right now. And those that succeed will get to go on a sale on Hokulea next fall. But they're familiar with Hokulea, and they're familiar with the other Hawaiian voyaging canoes. Okay. So we talked a lot about their project-based learning, but how about the standard skills that are measurable by test scores? Yeah. So we placed a big bet. And it was kind of scary. But we believed that if children were engaged in learning, whatever the setting might be, outdoors, in the garden, on the farm, up the mountain at cultural sites, doing a Hawaiian cultural protocol, problem-solving, they would learn all the skills they would otherwise have to learn as separate subjects. We don't teach separate subjects. We teach problem-solving. Long story short, our students scored very highly on the Hawaiian state assessment. We scored above 95%. So that bet, which was scary for me, paid off. Yes. The kids don't even know that they're learning so much, but they were able to perform on the test. Right. So have you had any students, it's only been in existence for how many years now? I'll say five years. So students have gone on to, have you had any students gone on to high school already? Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. Our school will go up to six and hopefully up to eight. And then they would start- Each year you'll keep batting in class. Yeah, so far so good. And we need a bigger location. We need a site. So yeah, they will be able to go on to the school of their choice. The kids in Waimanalo would probably go to Kailua High School, or they could choose a private school. How do they get into your school? Is it a separate application? Yeah. All charter schools have an application process, which is fair. There's an application, there's an interview. And if there's space, they'll be accepted, assuming the parents are able to embrace the values of the school. If they don't, it doesn't work too well, because this involves the whole family. If the school has a grade that's filled and we have more applicants, those names go into a lottery. All charter schools, pretty much nationwide, use a lottery system. So their name would have to be pulled out of a hat to get a space that opens up. And that's very equitable. Fortunately, we have a high percentage of Hawaiians because of our location. And we wanted that. Let's step back and talk about charter schools and maybe the bigger picture of the landscape of education in general, both in Hawaii and nationwide. So how do you assess where the state of Hawaii is in terms of meeting the goals and the needs of educating our students? From a philosophical point of view, Carol, the thing I've worked on for 40 years is providing families with a choice. If you just automatically go to your neighborhood public school, which most people do, that's not a choice. But if there's a neighborhood public school and a charter school nearby... And a private school. Parents have three choices. And so that's a big conceptual shift for Hawaii. We have 35 charter schools, and we have probably several thousand students in the charter schools. So that's huge. The programs that charter schools provide are different. And I've mentioned the Hawaiian cultural charter schools. I would say close to 17 or 18 of the 35 schools are based on the philosophy, values, and cultural underpinnings of Hawaiian culture. At the same time embracing 21st century skills that the children will need to have. So it's kind of a back to the future model. We're going back and reclaiming the Hawaiian history and we're using it. And language. And the language, and we're using that to teach children. That's why it's relevant. Right. As many of us know, the national dialogue with charter schools and our new secretary of education, Betsy DeVos, how do you factor in her particular interest in charter schools and how it affects? The national landscape for charter education is complicated. Our secretary of education was involved in charter education in Michigan, which is her home state. Some charter schools are using sort of a for-profit model. You can provide the education for less than what the state might give you. I'm not saying that's what she does, but across the country there are schools like that. Our charter schools here tend to be spending more on the children than we receive from the state. There's no question of any kind of fraud or negligence on our part. We're giving them everything we can. The Hawaiian cultural schools are actually getting their state money, plus they're getting additional funding from Kamehameha schools. And so I think our charter school landscape here is a better model than you might find in other places. But charter schools are where innovation takes place. So it's an important choice component we have here in Oregon. We have a choice. And our schools are actively innovating and trying new things. Well, we just have a few more minutes left. If you can briefly just tell me what you think the long-term future of is from Malama Honua Charter School, and then I'll give you a chance to talk in the camera floor. Well, thank you. We hope that Malama Honua Charter School will go all the way through high school at some point. We are also experiencing currently interest on the part of other educators who are coming out and visiting the school and asking, what are you doing and why are you doing it? And we're saying we have a different destination. We're using a voyaging analogy. And we're saying we're sailing towards a different destination than most schools in Hawaii. And that destination is Malama Honua. Right. Well, do you have a parting message to our community? You look here in the camera floor. Well, just as a resource for those of you who might have been interested in some of the things I said, you can look up Tony Wagner, www.tonywagner.com. Well worth a few minutes. Bob Lenz, who brought project-based learning through Hawaii is at bie.org. Bob Lenz. That's the Buck Institute for Education. And of course, the Polynesian Voyaging Society is a huge part of what we're doing. That's www.hokulea.com. And then our school, Malama Honua P.C.S., dot-for-f, Public Charter School. Thank you. Well, on that note, we can see your passion in education and in Malama Honua Public Charter School. Thank you. Thank you so much for all you do for our community. And on that note, this brings us to the end of our show. We've enjoyed bringing it to you. I'm your host, Caroline Lee. We've been talking with Robert Witt on becoming an educated person in the 21st century in the mind of the navigator. Students can be endowed with a new mindset aligned with the needs of the 21st century. Malama Honua Public Charter School is leading the way. If you want to see this show again, go to thinktechhawaii.com or youtube.com slash thinktechhawaii, where there will be a link to this show and many more just like this one. We'll see you next time. Aloha.


All right, here we go. Okay, we're live now live on the metal voice and yes once again We got lips from anvil a pleasure always a pleasure to have lips Definitely too long. It's been way too long since we've had lips on the on the show. So probably the last time was in Montreal Three years ago No, I didn't know I did not I did one here I don't know with not with both you but I'm sure with one of you. Yeah, yeah Not longer not that long ago. Maybe maybe just before the album Last album came out. Yeah, you're probably right. Yeah, you're probably right last time we saw you in as playing Three years three years Three years was before Legal at last you were you were just fine finalizing illegal at last and yeah Well, we were supposed to come through we would have had all kinds of shows, but everything got everything got scrubbed Sworn to secrecy about the album cover we can't even talk about the title at our supper You swore us the secrecy you and Rob.  So Alright, so look we all know it's it's it's obvious Yes, yes Johnny's Azula that his legacy a tribute and that's why we asked you to jump on You know, I just to talk a little bit about, you know, you know the the The first show the first thing we ever did in the United States Was for Johnny Z? We'd never been there and it was it was quite a room. I what a what a remarkable Remarkable thing that that was and to the point where you you knew we I know I know both Johnny and I both knew that Something very magical was about to happen, particularly stateside in in the way of wave of Support for metal bands because here he was running a of all things booth in a in a flea market called heavy metal heaven Rock and roll heaven actually It's You know the people from all over New Jersey would come there and buy all these obscure records and stuff like that, right? So he had a quite quite the quite the following because He had all the the albums and more over he had the more cool magazines and stuff Can you can you go in the more in the center like for the Swing back. Okay, that's it perfect. Yes. Yes That's perfect. Thank you so much. Sorry about that. It's okay Yeah, and you had this this flea market a huge following and and and it was a place that you could get not only the Up up and coming or or current metal bands But you could get the magazines that no one else was getting like as an example Korean magazine Korean again and Read at that moment in time Korean magazine was probably what was that and sounds magazine were the two most influential magazines at that moment Particularly because that's where heavy metal was coming from that's what that's that was the home of it And the only place you could read about it was from those British magazines And as it turns out and of course anvil the first and second album were Were we're very much followed by by those magazines to the point that that anvil was on the cover of sounds magazine And of course, but without any doubt this bit was got on Johnny Z's radar and he was selling selling virtually hundreds of Metal on metal copies that he was actually calling our record company in Canada having them send directly to him and stuff like that it's just just Became like almost like a distributor of it to a certain level and the next thing you know is he's he's He's on the phone with the record company goes look at I want to put on a show You know got I want to put this show on and what he did is he went and rented the hall In the same place that the flea market is so in the root the root 18 flea market Pick up your albums on your way out the door drop by rock and roll heaven Yeah, yeah, yeah rock and roll heaven. Just come to rock and roll heaven get your tickets there and and He went what he went and did is he But what's really funny? You know, we're thinking we're going to hotels. We're thinking we're you know, maybe we're going to the big time We're going to they're going down to the states so we get down to his place and There's this friend of ours that we've known to this that we know since that moment This guy Pete hops on the on the big truck and he says come on Just follow me right and we're following him down this down a rural street like You know a middle of a neighborhood, right and we drive up to the guy's house We're at Johnny's ease house. This is this so we're going. This is where the show is like what? Address this is where we're going to get to okay. I wonder where the gig is We still had no idea what we're going to what we're doing nothing You know what once we got we got there, of course we found out that we're staying at John's house so he stayed at John's house and and It was quite remarkable because like I was I slept on his living room couch, right as an example Did you know just it's just How down home in style it was, you know, and it's you know that the The warmth and and comfort of actually well, you know, you know, well listen, you know, it's got to work out I'm staying at the guy's house. That's putting on the show You know what I mean like What about customs what about customs was the paperwork done at customs? Well, no out over the border.  You went back to down, you know, you got you got through the Border however, you could and I think that we we had somebody write us a note or something at the time saying we're coming down to record something and We brought all the stuff down and they let us through, you know, could have been try that today Yeah, I mean we just you know, it was crazy, you know the We'd never done that before we'd never been there before and It was it was just an unbelievable set of circumstances So, you know, he takes us to the flea market and he shows us his his setup there in the flea market And then takes us to this big empty room and he goes this is where the show is gonna be tomorrow. Okay, we're going Okay And it's like a big empty room with a stage at one end. No, we're going. Okay.  The whole thing was right over the top I Mean it was so hot from all the lights. I was roasting like literally roasting on stage There was the crowd like how many people showed up there was about 2,000 people man so it was like completely Completely off the hook and unexpected and I think what was really even more unexpected is how well they knew the tunes This is 1982 now, right? 1982. Yeah Yeah, well metal on metal had only just come out This was this was like maybe a week or two weeks before I went to England to go play Donington So we hadn't even even been to England yet So it was it was it was a sort of a blink of a moment in time that you know only only live once man It's one of those things so I mean we played the show and it was it is Like a phenomenon and had just happened like something Completely unexpected especially from from John's perspective and he's He took me aside after the show and he's going Hey brother, you don't see the The realities of what's happening. This is this is just the beginning And we're here and we just we just witnessed the Really the true beginnings of what what how big metal is going to become in America and Yeah, I mean like Or this is kind of history. I mean he kind of he kind of still had that vision And we're talking about you know early night, you know, April 1982 So so obviously that's before he brought Raven over Oh, yeah So way before It's a year before it's a year before that. Yeah So right at the beginning he had this vision and you were like one of the first guys he probably launched In that area Well, the thing the thing that that it was is he saw that there was a huge A huge following from from how many records he was selling from his from his booth And from the popularity in the magazines And here the band only lived a couple a few hundred miles away and he's going I gotta get this band like what the hell And then he started getting on the phone to to el mayor at attic records and And made direct contact with us and how does come down that I mean that's how it happened That's the kind of person that he was and the kind of person that you would have to be at that day in time How else are you going to know there was no what do you mean go to a new york or go to new jersey? What? Who's going to put on a metal show? Do they listen to metal down there? No You guys were right at the beginning probably one of the first bookings he's ever done that way as you've described I mean You probably I don't think he'd ever done that before. Yeah, so you inspired him probably to go into record imports Promoting bringing in other bands recording. I mean, I think you guys really actually did he saw It actually did because he saw a whole entire world open up That that's what he was trying to tell me and and actually what what what that That relationship grew our relationship obviously grew to the point that He saw obviously what was happening and wanted to be directly involved and get and get right in there and and be involved but At the same time that that this was happening All of a sudden we've got david crebs Who managed aerosmith going? I'm going to give you five shows with aerosmith. I want to I want to watch your band Yeah, so What are you going to do? You're going to you tell johnny z.  You're not doing Things because you don't trust each other or you trust each other You don't trust each other or that you like each other You don't have nothing to do with that it had to do with the moments of opportunity and what do you do? So at the end of the day we went with we went with We went with the guy who had the name Yeah I mean, I I don't think that anybody could really blame us for that But of course that at the same time the guy who had the name didn't have the insight like johnny did Johnny had an insight you need in a in an in an intuitiveness and in a A crystal clear vision of what Each not just what one band, but if he if he liked your band He could he could tell you what he liked about it and what there is that you need to do to keep satisfying his his interest And his approval in a certain sense And that's actually not such an easy thing to do especially over long periods of time And there there are funny things all through our our our days and um In recent years he starts going wow, I missed it, but there's this song called sins of the flesh from the From one of your albums man. He says I keep listening to it over and over and over again Because I missed it in its day like oh well, you know, that's the way it goes What did when you got the call to go to uh, new jersey, I guess it was a new jersey, right?  Oh, I had no idea to who this person was going to be At all and when you met him it's it's it's it's a wound up guy. It's like somebody's got really You know like bright eyes, you know what I mean and and I gotta tell you gotta tell you and he'd be very very very excited about everything that he that he that he would talk about and enthused, you know On fire ready to go ready to make millions of bucks, I guess Did you you were sorry go ahead you know, that's good They were still on attic you got fortune fire to come and uh, johnny's building his empire as we can say down there and mega force record And how how do we connect with him after the the the cre the lab the crev's and the No, we we never really we never did we never lost connection with each other At any point It's just that we were never We never came to him To say hey man, why don't why don't you help us? You know what i'm saying because we were never in a position to do that At any given time it would be like we finished the attic record things finally we get out of it We finally get out of the out of the clutches of of the david crev's thing And getting out of those contracts so that we could go look for another record deal as as it turned out One of our demos got into the hands of of of uh a guy from uh metal blade records Right cycle No, it's actually william William howl Who is the a and r guy for for for for metal blade? He got her heard of the actual i guess he heard the strength of steel album and he goes i want it So we never really it's like okay. We already have a deal. So and then we had another deal in In europe so there wasn't There wasn't oh can you help us we already we already Got your deal already helping ourselves. You know what i mean? It's what was taking what was What was being offered because it was certainly enough money to cover cover what needed everything It was everything we needed so you don't need to ask for help. I don't know What about okay, so years later you do your documentary um Johnny's in it What do you think about the documentary? Like what was this whole feeling towards it? I think I think Well, I think that it's one thing it's he's Was very proud to be part of the history always was Because in in he he didn't really think of it any different Than I did we just not things just didn't connect for For us to actually do anything and and and to be really honest that there's always reasons for things like that. So it's I'm there.  It's not it's not It's not that at all. I don't really feel that way at all I to be completely honest no because everything actually ended up really well, so I don't know Why would it make any difference what you can't have shoulda woulda cut us anyways?  That's an anvil song I bumped into mad dog at the heavy Montreal. It's mad dog, right the uh I haven't actually seen mad dog in a couple years. So I don't know All right, I thought he'd be following you around everywhere you go. Okay I don't know that that that's still this the case. I don't know if he's well or I don't know. Okay. I don't I I have no idea. I haven't seen him. I haven't seen him in years. So I don't know. Got you.  Right You know and again a year A year apart a year apart. It's it's so sad, you know, uh Well, it is it you know he he to be really He knew that his it was really Not much time from even at the time When marsha passed it was it was actually it was it was almost a surprise to him that he wasn't first Wow, it's crazy You know, uh, john And you know, I There are things that I had heard and I don't know because he did it's you know He had medical issues from a number of years ago Some something to do with something to do with Some kind of accident that he was involved in with With uh Chemicals and stuff. I don't know I It's okay. It's all right. Yeah So and and and there were there were issues all along and he'd been he'd been having problems a lot of problems with his back and and being able to walk I mean like john he's been ailing for for quite a number of for a few years to be honest, you know and uh It was it was a really big deal for A couple years ago for him to come see us In florida and he had to have you know, we hired drivers and people to help and to bring them into the gig and we We went out for dinner. I mean it was it you know, very very special because Honestly, he knew that it would be the last he that's why he was there. He came to see us last time that I I Didn't want to think about it when none of us wanted to think about that But you know, of course in hindsight, you know, you're going one of the what were the chances I was going to get back there again and he was going to get to a gig before that before he goes like Who knows right it took years to get that moment to happen.  So When I went into record, he knew that I was going into record my newest album and yeah And of course to me I got it's like asking. It's like asking your your Your it's like asking your math teacher how you did on the exam So you're talking about you're talking about the new album that you guys were working on or or or you know the kid at the table Does Mikey like it? Yeah, so Uh What I had even been in touch with him while I was even recording So he's well aware what's going on and keeping keeping in touch and I sent it Sent him all the finished stuff. And of course he been him not being as Computer savvy as you probably could be there was tracks that he missed that were really really Really crucial And what happened was of course I have a conversation with him and I go and what about and what about Gomez and he goes what?  He's going man. I like I just So so what you're saying is you just went from number eight to ten, you know, it's like So so lips what you're saying is before he passed He got a chance Yeah, he got a lot chance to listen to it and actually in detail to the point where and almost missed songs But I pointed it out. It's just fun to have Because he was he was so meticulous because he said he didn't want to talk to me until he had listened to everything At least three times in it. He did listen three times and and he did like he said But he missed one song because the songs came in in In files in on in emails and he missed one of them. Whoops, you know so Very forgiven. I love I love the guy with all my heart man. It's it's like, uh It's like an older brother in a certain sense and and There was always a warmth and and comfort To be able to go I got asked Johnny about this, you know, there's always You know, it was like he was like the guy that you could consult with to find out what's going on You know, he just there wasn't Very many things he didn't know about You know, I read his book man. It's it's excellent excellent You can see how devoted of the person he was, right? So And and no bullshit, right? He would tell you if you didn't like it.  It's sort of that spirit of you can do it Against all odds you can do it kind of like your documentary in a sense, right? Yeah, it's the spirit of you can do it in a certain sense that you could There are individuals that I've met in my life that were easy that were easy to tell this guy's gonna be This guy's gonna be successful Yeah, they're just They emanate it from the moment you meet him And and and quite quite honestly in the same way that that johnny z had Had that so did so did sasha Who I met just after that when I went to england There were a few people and and it rate all in succession of each other You'd be you'd be shocked. I could tell you all in in a succession of weeks The people and characters that we met and who they became it's like what the fuck what You know people like jonis ackerland If you know who jonis ackerland, he's a he's a director He's a like a music director of videos and stuff like that He's originally I think originally I think he was the drummer or bass player of the band bathery Old bathery, yeah, yeah, okay So Yeah, this is one of the guys that was hanging out with with With two guys from candle mask The first gig that anvil played at the marquee club in london where we met sasha Yeah, yeah, it's crazy all these things. It's all all these people are there The same moment, you know wow and of course sasha went to direct many movies and yeah And of course the anvil documentary as well, right? Well, yeah, jonis went on to make videos for for lady gaga and and madonna and and Actually that movie if you're not if you're not familiar with it It's that there's a movie that was about The crazy nut bar band that was burning down churches. Oh the norwegian one. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, I forget what the what the movie was called, but he actually made a movie about it Yeah, I saw the movie. I saw it. I can't remember what the band's name was Yeah, yeah vicious Yes, it's it's just insane things are not movie that you never forget for the rest of your life No, no, no, hey, you know lips the words speed metal and thrash metal in 1982.  What's his name? He actually toured it with saxon for a while Yeah, I thought the Derek Smalls character is based on Dawson from uh saxon Yeah Of course, there's pieces from it. It was Biff Beiford that that did the the cucumber wrapped in sylophane We just had Nigel on last week. It was a great interview. He's a great another great drummer. Yes phenomenal. Oh Nigel Yes, he's a great. He's a great guy too, man. Yes. He is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  I was I can still remember being in the ottawa. I think it was the ottawa civic center And there were these People that waived me over And I walked over to the to the side of the rink and started to talk to them and they were a couple of american American people that had come up to ottawa to see iron maiden and they're they're And the place was empty, but they're the only people there and and they're going up Yeah, we're we we follow we follow them around, right?  I I don't know that Okay Whatever What are you going to say about that? And that was that was our sort of our opening conversation Was he upset about it or was he he was okay with it? No, no, no, he just thought I think he thought that there was a certain amount of I don't know Synchronicity to to the system in some way Isn't that an interesting thing? How does things like that happen? You know Yeah, I saw that tour. I was iron maiden at the verdant auditorium if you remember verdant auditorium You guys opened up for them in 82 Or it could have been 83 by then but uh, yeah, it's a great tour. I remember uh, I was standing right there lips So there you go. You're talking to us and I was kind of I must have been right at the gate 15 years old or 14. I don't know And you're right there.  No, I didn't meet you.  It's a little different. It's a little different, but we'll pretend there's some synchronicity. We'll pretend there's some synchronicity But I was my first exposure to anvil That's what I'm trying to say and wow you guys like kicks some serious bot man. It was like a great show Yeah, we had we had a good time Montreal I I remember Montreal being very very good for us With in the maiden show it was and I if I'm not mistaken.  Yeah, I do. I don't want to remember it Yeah, we got it. I remember Bruce used to was broke his mic stand at the at the end of the show That's all I remember from that, you know, the only memory I have. Maybe it didn't get pie I don't remember that I Yeah, but you're right. It was very done arena that was not it wasn't the usual Yeah, it was It wasn't the forum. No the forum was peace of mind. Coney hatch opened up for them. I was I was that one Yeah, I don't think we did the forum. I don't think so No, no ever done. It was definitely ever done Now wait a second. What was what was What was across the street or basically right near Right near the mustache club. Oh the mustache was the forum Mustache was the forum You know, I think with aerosmith you opened at the forum. No, I don't know man I think I think iron maiden. I think we did the forum as well Maybe you did but number the beast I can guarantee you 100 percent pretty sure Yeah, if it wasn't If if it wasn't I think it was we're done auditorium remembering well the the beast the number the beast was 100 percent for done auditorium Yeah, that's 100 100 percent now if you played the forum on another occasion that that that I don't know Okay, yeah, then I must have done it with aerosmith Yeah, yeah, because I went to school No, that's a show with aerosmith and aerosmith and Brian, yeah, I went to high school with I won't give Diane She saw she went for aerosmith anvil open Knowing that my good friend marty were huge anvil fans.  They're the greatest man. What are you talking about? I watched him that you were way too heavy for her ears because she was expecting dream on all night from Steve and Tyler And we're like, what do you mean lips bravo? These guys are the greatest anvil and she she just couldn't believe how much Yeah, I remember that that was a really odd bill bill with brian adams Has no brian adams and aerosmith. It's like, okay What was it like opening up for acdc uh in in the stadium in toronto and there was a few other shows, right? Did we do toronto was it toronto was in new york? No, did you open up for a good magnetic hill? In in in montan. Yep, we did uh new jersey Okay, and we did What was the other one that was the one other one jillett new york let's stadium What's the last stadium? I don't know You don't know where jillett stadium is jillett. I think it's yeah fremmingham fremmingham massachusetts. Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna look it up right now giant stadium No, jillett jillett. Oh, it's called jillett. Yeah, that's in fremmingham. It's where the patriots play Oh, okay. Yeah, I don't know. Was it was the state's giant stadium. I don't know. It was new york Yeah, I think it was. I think it was we did we did like It's like great at the Read it where the bridge is the new york and new jersey the metal was not metal lands metal lands Fuck, I don't know what you played too many shows. That's the problem We did three three or four shows with acdc Yeah, what was it like? What was it like, you know, acdc is like wow, man. It's oh They well, what's it like? It's like you're an opening band for for for acdc for if you if you're lucky people watch you for a minute Oh, wow You know that that ultimately that's what it comes down to If you don't get booed then you're you're doing pretty good So we didn't get booed. So you did pretty good. That's good. Yeah, we didn't get on court either, but We didn't get booed Wow acdc stadium tour, right? It's like you said, let's make sure you're not going to get on court You play you play like you're you've ended the set because that's what's that's real They've got a show to put on and you got your slot and you do it and you're done, right? Did you end up hanging out with the band or are they closed off? Oh, no, you don't you don't get near them. Are you kidding me with acdc? It's actually comedy even they don't get involved with each other.  They don't leave at the same time or get there at the same time The only place they see each other is on stage or at least that's what I saw. Yeah. Yeah They all came in separate limos Oh, wow Oh, yeah, and when they when they're moving around you're not in the loud in the corridors Wow Oh, yeah, heavy heavy security.  I got to get to the stage excuse me Yeah, you're dealing with a lot of people at the stadium level. Absolutely So, I mean, you know, shit, you know, it's just Well, they have a lot of there's a lot of stipulations A lot of stipulations and rules to follow and things that you have to adhere to For any headlining ban like Alice Cooper is an example. You're not allowed any alcohol or Or cigarette or any kind of other smoking In the building when he's there Because he's a he's clean Christian. That's why yeah, well, it's not just that it does doesn't want it around Yeah, not to be around. Yeah, period Yeah Well, it's his prerogative. It's his choice this show Just show you you get an opening slot.  You don't come in there smoking a cigarette.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know You know What you do in your own space and your own time is your own business But when you're in here, you're not to bring it in here And that think like no beer in the change rooms, right?  It's like yeah, and so who cares You know, my book my bass player go and oh shucks. I don't get to take any I don't get to take any home, you know So lips, what can you tell us? Okay very very high level just a new album, right? I mean, you don't have to tell us much, but whatever you could tell us Well, it's interesting, you know, of course a new album is is completely Is completed and and mixed and and done and It's it's what can I say? I can't wait till it comes out. It's just it's just a bit The whole thing is a bit weird and odd because We put out an album and then never got the tour for it. So it's like where's the tour for the last album already Yeah, yeah So what is the last last album just a just spinning our wheels? What was that like? What happened? Right like to me as I never got to play the you know, now I'm in a position where I'm putting out another album. I'm gonna have to actually try to Push both albums. Push both out. Yeah, it's like, I don't know Never been in a position like that And then at the same time While all this is going on I got back from Germany, of course in october and have been writing songs since I got back Because of course the last song I wrote was before I left right months before so I had months of Time off right not doing anything. So we started backing on it. We're in it. We're at number 10 already For the next album. So you got three albums to tour. Yeah Yeah It seems like everybody was doing that exact I have the time I might as well do that solo album I never did and I mean, I don't know Lots of lots of songs lots of songs lots of music to catch up for the world to catch up on Uh, it's going to mean a lot less work And a lot less well, I don't even call it work a lot less writing to to to worry about Hmm. Yeah Right like why am I worried about writing how many records you guys does the public want although they could absorb one a month Would matter Be endless. I'm serious You could a band could put out an album's worth of material a month and they have it absorbed and gone And on to the next That the month that's true. It's a disposable world. Yeah Oh, yeah When we're talking in Nigel with Biff's Hospitalization and the delay it took with everything that's going on These areas said they were really able to focus and really take the time to make sure everything was As they wanted to do sometimes you don't have that luxury, right? Yeah, you know, and I think that there's a there's there's There's a positive aspect to that And there's also a negative aspect to that because I think that there's a loss of Spontaneuity and doing it like that Mm-hmm. Chinese democracy Things can get very very things can get very sterilized uh, and and actually over Overproduced I guess you could say over analyzed over analyzed and Second-guest and yeah, it's there's a level of spontaneity that gets lost Let's face it man.   Most of it's spontaneous A lot of it was spontaneous particularly Particularly the early albums and and you know, there's nothing wrong with It depends on approaches a million different approaches to doing things. I mean today Today most most bands can't even play songs together.  Are you free? Monday you go. No, no, I gotta practice Tuesday Wednesday Thursday year you're practicing like all the time you've been practicing Right, I'm assuming you guys are always jamming. You're always working, right? It's not like you just it's not like you It's not like you just left the whole pandemic In in a certain sense all that all that we've done is do what we do when we don't tour which is Right. So all we've been doing is going to rehearsal every day and putting new songs together And when I take some time off, it's for me to put compile ideas in my little room here Right, do you still get that same sort of my my my My little lamp and stuff Do you still get that same sort of vibe? Like you did when you first started, you know, you're in the jam room You're just playing you and rob and whoever else and you still get that same sort of energy and feeling you know what What it's what you know some of that some of that is not the same because We're in a different we're in a different place In in in a certain sense at least for rob and I I I I it's better for me to actually to actually come in with a A finished a finished bed track You know like like here's how the song goes Okay. Okay. Let let me hear what your accompaniment is and judging by that We'll know whether we have to change anything Yeah, that's what that's what's been going on for about three albums now Rather than coming in with bits and pieces and starting something up and I'm working it through and taking a week to get to get to get the whole thing sorted In this case I get the whole thing sorted and come in and it takes a day And it's like whack. You got the song. So it's like It's certainly that That has made it for the better and actually and actually The spontaneity doesn't get lost because I built I built The the bed track from Spontaneity and then I take that in and go, okay guys.   It's like wow You've always been one of my favorite guitars. I think you're extremely underrated What goes into your thing thought process when you when you come up with the solos to the songs Oh for solos it really they really it's really I The approach is I go I work with the the engineer in the studio with it I never really work out my solos previous to going in because it's actually much much better to actually work it out in the studio Because you keep what you what the guy does is he just keeps he just keeps hitting it and recording what you played Over and over and over and you get and as you go and doing it over and over you're writing further and further Into the solo and you're getting more and more of the solo written Yeah, and eventually even if you don't get every part perfect all at once You will have played all the parts perfect over the duration of playing the solo over and over and over again Okay So because of because of digital editing You're playing your solo top to bottom perfect So you don't go in with anything preset. It's kind of inspired right there based on the song with the engineer That's that's right Based on the song. Yes Yes, it's not like I'm going to show off. It's not about that. It's about what belong what what belongs there is everything What belongs there and what can you do or what can I do with my vocabulary of playing It's some it's really a simple process and then it's what all guitars I would imagine does so Yes, it can be anything but only one thing is right All right some some questions. Okay. I'm gonna ask there's there's people watching and they could type in some questions for ellipse I know I got the first question was Annihilator is coming out with A metal 2 which is basically you appeared on metal 1 the album metal 1 You know, are you going to be appearing on metal 2 or did they remove the vocals? Are they keep it or you don't know? What's going on there? As far as I under from what I understand is they've added they've added He's added other people or stew block is is yeah. Yeah. I I I really don't know And I don't know the answer to that. Okay. It's all right. Sorry. Yeah, it's okay It's it's the kind of thing I I mean Jeff is is a great guy is any and and a a good friend and We did that, you know, yeah, I happened to be in in Ottawa that day and he asked me You know or that weekend he goes listen man. I'm doing this recording. You're you're gonna be in Ottawa anytime soon I said, yeah, like tomorrow and he goes really I go. Yeah Yeah, I'm gonna be in Ottawa tomorrow. He goes. Can you come and see me? I'll come and get you Okay, really? And that's how that and that's how that came to came to know where I could labels no manager say let's do this Yeah, I'll be over. Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. We we always He's got my phone number. I've got his phone number We we every once in a while call each other wouldn't be unusual to for Jeff to go. Hey lips. What's happening? I'd be going. Hey Jeff. How's it going? You know, it's just it's one It's an acquaintance. It's a friend, you know, not ultimately close but Add we both admire each other's work. Yes And respect each other plain and simple. We should be touring together and we've never been able to do it So I don't know why but we should but anyway All right. So queen bodisha wants to know if she was to start she doesn't know much about anvil But if she was to start listening to anvil, what would be That album you would choose to Start listening to anvil to get into anvil. What would be that album? Get the best of there's two of them Okay Come on, man. That's my favorite anvil I chose all the songs Rob did the cover right on one of them. Yeah, okay same monument of metal. Okay And try with that one the one with it where there's a big new jambal in a park try that one first Who would you like to tour with? Uh that I guess annihilator was one annihilator would be one boy bod would be another I mean there's always Toured with war. Come on.  We've said the same thing for years jimmy and I we should start our own metal voice A concert or something and invite all you guys exactly killer dwarfs Maybe get cody hatching there I guess The new the the exciter that exists today, but I mean I don't really I don't really know the exciter of today I know the exciter of that was and the middle era the john ritchie's era All right, here we go. Was there ever been any discussion about anvil exciter and razor? Like I guess like the big Canadian No one ever I've never I've never talked to anybody about anything like that. We have done there has been a show where we've all been on it Okay, I I know in Calgary that was in muntry all the years ago What kind of set list from gabriel? What kind of set list will anvil play on tour later in the year? As he's seeing them in belfast so gabriel's in all the way in belfast ireland. He's a huge fan And he's asking what kind of set list could he expect are we gonna hear two new albums or what are we gonna hear? Besides strangling that we're talking to right now That who it is gabriel. No, it's gabriel. It's gabriel What's his name gabriel gabriel mcpoolin mcpoolin sorry Oh, wow, okay. I can't believe I don't know him. Well now now, you know him What are we gonna be doing probably everything that we did before but with samora's stuff added That would be about the best way that I could I can say at the moment I can't give you exact details, but I can say that There'll be new songs from the from the newest album that we just that will be put out plus There'll be songs from legal at last that I don't Uh, actually we did play one show in ireland if that's what he's talking about gabriel says. I know thomas well Okay, so yeah, see so he knows I thought they're all connected. They're all connected. Yeah, right. See I I knew it had something to do with thomas stranglin What did you say the new album's called again lips? Ah I thought he was gonna say something Actually, I believe it or not. I think rob was in touch with thomas just the other day I think thomas knows the name of the new album.  And why? Oh, oh bloodstock was It can't compare the two situations night and day Yeah, that's it's a different era, you know Although, you know, there there is something to be said about, you know, you're breaking the ice in a big way And certainly the monster monsters of rock donnington festival was definitely breaking the ice in a big big way All right, and any other questions there alan I see, uh I mean, there's kevin scarborough wants to say hi by the way. You want to say hi to you? I'm glad to hear that there's a new album coming. Yeah, hopefully we'll get to see you on tour sometime in 2022 Well, we have a lot of we have a huge touring schedule planned and it's All this information we're right We are on the cutting edge of it. I can't divulge any of it It's driving me crazy, but we will probably since we were here to initially talk about johnny z We weren't here to talk about that there will be probably press releases that That like jimmy you'll probably get the press release and you're gonna want to be talking to me about whatever you saw in there and whatever, right? There could be a return of Me returning here to talk more about yes. Well, you're always welcome. You're always welcome. Yeah, always Always, but I do know that is public information on friday may the 20th in Niagara Falls You're playing You're also playing at the rock pile in toronto or mississauga On may the 27th So there's two shows that are public And that it's you know, there might be there. We're trying to add some other stuff For the weekend before so uh the rock pile So we're looking for something and I don't know where it's going to be that we're going to find out Very soon All right, and uh, you know, I guess, you know, it was a pleasure having you lips You know, you're always welcome to jump on and just you know, tell us what's going on And thanks for giving us that little insight into johnny's azula You know, what a what a great guy man. I'm gonna miss him like unbelievable, man It's it's been a tough year of that, you know, I've got to tell you, you know And it connected directly to the anvil movie Yeah, I'm I'm very very sad to say in the sense that We've lost melcom dome Yes We've well, we obviously know that um neat loaf recently. Well, yeah, I mean There's a number of people that have passed away, but but People connected to the movie. It's and of course johnny. So that's Two in one year now. The other thing is Sadly the actual Guy who wrote the article in sounds magazine That had me on the cover with the chainsaw that Sasha always talks about Sasha wouldn't have been at that first anvil show at the marquis And therefore there would have been no movie Unbelievable, you know, wow So the guy who actually wrote that article Passed away. That's pete makowski. Okay, so There's a lot of the picture who took the picture ross helfin. It was ross. Okay. Yeah They were dressed for that one Yeah, and ross is Of course, quite hard was from what I could gather was really quite heartbroken about we're talking about lifelong friends between him and p You know, that's uh, that's the two original guys that wrote about anvil that actually Broke us in In the uk and the in the early eighties which was of course huge huge huge thing We're still we're still doing very well in the uk. I'm very very happy to say and it's It's a great warmth and a great feeling to know that Because it's it's we've been we've been friends for a long time I Mean You guys were the first wave of kovid. You're still playing. I think one of the last bands Still touring as kovid was striking the world. That's what I know. Well, they didn't in the uk. They were they didn't want to shut down the the uh clubs because then Then the then the insurance companies would have have something to To be hit with Because you can get like a catastrophe or whatever insurance, right? And they didn't want to declare anything.   We you could get stuck here. No no flights. No no no nothing, man That's what was going on That's how I ended up getting COVID before that before I left is because A front-line worker, which is basically someone who's working at the airports Is you would ask to use my cell phone to sort out? Getting us new flights because our flights were canceled because we were Rate at that point of of arriving at the airport america shut off all uh all people without An american passport were not allowed to enter america even if they were just coming to to To catch a flight to canada We weren't allowed to take the flight to america. So we were stuck in the uk so that anyway, the my I called my My travel agent back in toronto and of course it's the middle of the night and she goes well Let me speak to the lady at the desk. Well, I give her my phone and she's passing And no one's wearing masks and everybody's wiping out anything people are getting COVID everywhere, right? There was no masks back then there were no masks My phone back. I go. Yeah, okay. Everything started great. Thanks. Now. I got COVID. I put my phone away Three days later. I get start getting symptoms, right?  We didn't know if this was zombie zombie apocalypse or something I should be you go upstairs and don't come back down here again I'm gonna be sending food up there and that's it. I don't want to knock on your door That's it.    And it's like I'm hearing my wife yelling from the living room downstairs Lips are you okay? I go what? I can't come get you because you're contaminated What do you mean? I I don't I don't know I I'm on the ground. I I don't know I I don't know how I got here Lips last though.  I can't move right and I just passed out. I couldn't see anything So she's going so she calls 911 and they go They go is he breathing and she goes yeah, and he goes that we'll have a nice day Wait wait four days, it'll be better just turn them over Turn them over Hey, it was right at the beginning of the the pandemic. Yeah March 20th of 2020. Yeah Right at the beginning. Yeah, there was no there's no hand gel No alcohol you couldn't find it anywhere you couldn't find There's nothing there's no masks.   I got it at the airport Yeah, I'm the cell phone. How do you guys lent your phone out? I did Last question Hey, man, you got forensics on that?  Are there any young bands out there that are blowing your mind at the moment? Like any young bands that you seem like wow, this is great young bands Up and coming we'll say up and coming Geez, I you know, I wish I I wish I did know I wouldn't have any problem. I wouldn't have any problem mentioning it I don't really it it does nothing really comes to mind sadly And I have to say that sadly and I don't know why but maybe maybe there are maybe I'm just not a nice guy I think that's okay. It's not because you're not a nice guy. You're busy. You got your own music It feel awful, you know like and some stuff I do like and I I did like and I still I can't remember the names, you know But there's been a couple of support bands.   And they were a support band that that that And another band is palace, but these are are german support bands and great like great bands man that Probably if they had the right The right breaks. I guess you could say that about any band, right? And today it's not at the same thing as getting breaks today as it was back then, right? I mean now there's just so many bands and so many albums They needed Johnny Zazzoula to discover them. Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, but even he'd be even it'd be even a hard press for Johnny to get it To get it heard or get it listened to or get it get it Distributed or get it known about it's a it's a real tough real tough one tough one Like I can I I thank my my I thank my lucky stars in many many ways because I'm a I'm a I'm a Brand name. I don't have to worry about that Like that aspect And it could be you could look at it in a detrimental and in detriments too.  That's where I am and that's what's going on with With what I've been involved with where We've done a lot of work and been around for a long long time so I'm a very very very fortunate that I've been able to do that and and To a great degree it has to do with staying trying to stay relevant and staying relevant To particularly to your audience and and to our new audience because we have a huge contingency of new fans, which is is has been absolutely spectacular and I think that that's a good thing and Of course in order to To maintain that and in order for that to be possible There has to be certain certain aspects of the band that They feel if there's a a young vibrancy to that they can relate to and that's that's that's a wonderful magical magical thing to to to to grasp and to be part of and to And to to exist that so it's all it's all good man Sounds like a lot of the comments we're reading during the interview It looks like you can pick up a whole bunch of new fans that will be discovering anvil for the first time after after this interview Yeah, there you go. Oh, there could be there could be a lot of new. Yeah, and you know what it's This is the thing. There's a there's a whole new audience Today that never saw the movie Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean come on the movie is 13 years ago, right? Wow, yeah, so it's you know, there's there's a huge contingency and the the the theme and the Humanity humanitarian or the humanity and that what it all represents about never giving up on your dreams and going after your dreams and having Desires in life and seeing them through and all those those wonderful things are being represented Have been represented in that anvil movie and they always stay relevant. So it it it's a movie that Uh Will be remembered for many years and is still being remembered for from since then so it's uh, But on the on the other hand, uh, there's a whole new audience yet to discover it and they will it's just Now with two albums worth of material to promote You know the next tour is going to be three hours and evening with anvil, you know three hours long So it's right check out lips and the boys when they come to your town Well, we're gonna play the last three albums. That's all we're gonna play All right, man, wonderful talking to you. Thank you so much for joining in. Okay gentlemen, and I use the term loosely Have a great evening. All right. Thanks. That's always a pleasure. Okay