movie beyond the fucking time stone it's like it's part of I would argue it's all the foundational shit for why I really hate Multiverse of Madness it's shits on this film it wasted Dr. Strange it doesn't even yeah like a mortal man god damn like he was a person he was a person he was really important to Dr. Strange and then we just discard him because Michael Waldron wanted to have Wanda as the villain and like everybody seems to forget when Dr. Strange came out everyone was fucking cooming all over the visuals but now everyone looks back at it's a part of the phase of shitty visuals Honeymoon period was short for that well I think it's just I don't know I feel bad for Scott Derrickson he had a story he wanted to tell with Multiverse of Madness that he wasn't he left because of creative differences so there was a story he wanted to tell as a creative that he didn't get and nobody gave a fuck like nobody gave a shit as soon as he got replaced by Sam Raimi like nobody cared that he had a story he wanted to tell who cares about this shit we want to go a different way and make a shit movie sorry all that information can be found and confirmed but nobody gives a shit it's like oh well bye Scott don't care about you because they'll even say nice things about it but it's like there's no fucking way he's happy with where you took it compared to what I assumed was his intentions because he obviously was going to make more of a significant component and you fucking booped him out you almost you would have killed him if they had kept the scene in you would have gotten rid of being able to use I will butcher his name as I always do Chewettle Edgy no I almost got it right Chewettle Edgy 4 I screwed it up you had him you have him in a role that you can leverage him and you nearly got rid of him why would you do that and yeah just so in case in case anyone in chat is not talking about there was going to be a scene where Scarlet Witch revealed Mordo's head to Doctor Strange in Camotage like above the when they were talking up there as a sort of threat and the idea was going to be that she killed him when he tried to kill her for having power he would have just been knocked out of the fucking franchise just like that it's pretty clear that he's supposed to be like an incredibly important and meaningful personal enemy to Doctor Strange it's amazing how much they just didn't give a shit but yeah I think it's well that's phase 4 it's amazing how much they didn't give a shit yeah what I find especially alarming is like Doctor Strange is probably the last movie in the MCU that did the whole like he is a character here are his traits he goes through this conflict and now he has to make a choice and it involves having powers and you know he chooses the right thing in here might be right Homecoming would be the last no wait no I guess we exclude the Spider-Man films right well I was going to say I wouldn't count Homecoming because that's like a Doctor Strange 2 where he's already he's developing as opposed to beginning I hesitate to say Origin Story but I just mean Origin Story something like that yeah like it's just Origin Movie I think I know what you're talking about let me start to think about a lot of the recent films haven't really demanded that the characters make a meaningful choice like you think about Captain Marvel's was about realising how great she was I guess I guess Black Panthers was about to Charla realising how to be a king in his own way I guess one of the big resolutions and that was the whole taking responsibility for the lies that his father ran but there was never any reason for those lies in the first place the whole like getting rid of Killmonger thing but I guess it would be that despite the flaws of the actual plot itself it's a decision that he makes that I guess is meaningful to him well maybe that's the key factor that we haven't had one that like matters in some way well I suppose I don't know it would be nice if we had more stories where like you do the standard thing character has X traits the story challenges or character has X beliefs story challenges X beliefs character develops Y beliefs or something they change or maybe you were wrong X plus 1 sort of thing which is what I thought that's what Multiverse of Madness was going to try and do because it did the whole you guys remember Doctor Strange in the first movie says I took an oath in the Hippocratic Oath and he's like but I have just killed a man and it's like oh shit yeah I've never even thought about what does that mean to you as a person and the more we follow him the more he's clearly willing to fucking kill people so what happened what is that and then you have spider memories like in the grand calculus of the Multiverse there's a fucking drop in the bucket compared to like everyone you're like oh okay so he's gone like full utilitarian I understand and I'm not against that logic especially in that situation he's a complicated one then you have Multiverse of Madness where he repeats that line but he's killed during saying it and I remember despite already thinking that scene was shit that's right at the beginning I was like okay so clearly the film's going to be trying to make a point about him having said the whole grand calculus thing and if you remember Scarlet Witch then kind of says the same thing to him in the spooky Caelid scene she's like one life compared to the whole Multiverse her logic is dangerous for America to have that power you know so I should just kill her because one does a fucking more but like it's fine we'll run with that and then if you remember Strange says to her that's the kind of logic villains use and it's like oh I see what you're doing movie you've just had Doctor Strange criticize himself without realizing it oh how very clever I can't wait to see where this goes exactly it's like oh alright so we I've got my foundation that's near the beginning of the movie how are we going to develop this and it's like pretty much nothing right up until the end where he's like you know he's like Strange take her power like you got a killer to save the Multiverse and he comes to his choice and he goes no I'll just tell her to believe in herself you know what no that is a good plan and yeah and it works and we never address the whole grand calculus thing that and I was just like was there a plan to do it and they dropped it or was it just written by Michael Hall? I can believe that I think that he thought that he did that as well as other themes because of how well written that script is like look at all these multiple themes I wrap up I practically feel tricked watching it because I was just like you're clearly about to tell me why it is that sacrificing one person for everyone else is a bad decision or at least hasn't a counter argument give me something but no they just go nah nah I don't like it a counter argument that you could present as like but what does this say about you what does this do to you you know all of these individual compromises what are they amount to in the end there's so many things you can say about it that might be a bit too interesting yeah they never did anything with it and so I don't even know what Doctor Strange's position is now has he decided the grand calculus thing is bullshit now or is he still following it I don't know because if you remember this is something we pointed out in our discussion on it he was more than willing for the other universe Wanda to be killed to save the multiverse just not America he gets booped across the room America's like oh I'll go save her he's like no no no no no don't do that I'd see how this pans out and this is the thing oh it's written by such a fucking baby because it's like if you're gonna argue to me that it's not worth saving the multiverse to kill one person does that count for Wanda as well so when you like kick her ass so it's okay to say it's a killed Wanda to save the universe then right I don't know you may think like well that's different because she's evil I'm like well are you gonna talk about that is it about the intention the motivation of why you're in the position you're in and what it means like there's so much for you to cover but you just go like they just win don't worry about it so uh yeah you don't like multiverse Amanda's to you kind of it and you might even say I'm like an expert on it at this point I'm not sure how that happened it was the only Marvel movie that made me mad in the theater it's interesting to say that Jay said that the only film that's made him mad was Thor Loven Thunder that like legit infuriated Jay really seems like everyone was picking different points and they just thought he'd get angry what was it about making you mad John out of curiosity uh right off the bat it felt kind of lazy because like this girl comes out of nowhere and just says like oh yeah I have these powers I can jump to wherever I need to like immediately and none of it's explained and uh I thought Scarlet Witch's character was kind of butchered like yeah you could say that yeah and then the ending was stupid with the zombie Doctor Strange no that's cool you're not allowed to think that was kind of weird I just I just like like the ending was stupid it's like yeah the ending yeah I didn't even get like a Sam Raimi vibe from it which is one of the reasons I was curious about it like I guess like some shots find like some Dutch angles whatever the fuck um but like but by the time they were had that musical note fight in the castle or whatever I'm just like what is going on they're clever though dude when I saw people like being like oh fucking musical fight was so cool I was like you're not going to say that a day from now you're not going to get it it never happened musical fight like a fight with notes on a page that you pull off the magic system ignites like the way that humans have developed like music as a concept right and a lot of the performances felt wooden benedicts but I don't really because I know he's good I blame it on the material you know there were a couple of moments in the film where I thought he did some good acting he was good yeah he was there there's flourishes on like particular deliveries that made me think like oh because if only if maybe you were bad as well I would just be like yeah whatever this is all shit but it's like oh no because benedict combat is a really really really good actor he goes all out on most of his roles no matter how cringe that's the sign of a good actor folks and they're like you know what this could be terrible that's okay because I didn't pay to do a job I didn't understand what was so special about that girl like her portals or like blue stars this is instead of all like the golden circles or whatever well if you remember in the first film they say that you can use rings to travel the multiverse but then that changed their mind because her power is she can travel through the multiverse no one else down and she's the only one who can do it this was linked on the mohler subreddit that's why I saw this there was a thread in the marvel studio subreddit of that reference being like you know the sling ring can travel all the way through the multiverse sorcerers use it as an incredibly important tool blah blah blah so why would that make her special at all the fucking top comment was like watch doctor strange when they say multiverse they are referring to dimensions in multiverse of madness the multiverse refers to universes low keys refers to timelines pay attention jeez what what it is so fucking baffling that you could just go like wait one plus one equals two right you go I said it equals three you just make up your own definition and everything is fine um and crawl into that igloo and then close the door and just be like leave me alone leave me the fuck alone how am I supposed to make a certain sense of realms, worlds, dimensions, realities, timelines like what is all of this this is like also the gap junction the space between space the answer is it's universes and they just forgot that's the answer that's absolutely the answer they wish they didn't have a line that said sling rings could go through the multiverse they fucking wish they didn't have it but it's there because they've established rules that are really like terrible I think they're very restrictive yeah like the only person can travel the multiverse and the only other way is using a magic evil book that doesn't exist anymore why would you limit yourself like that why would you just invent things on the spot so it's not really even limiting themselves right but but like if you wanted to stick to your rules traveling the multiverse now entirely hinges on one character rather than other people being able to do it in their own different ways I don't even know what it would he just shows how important America's Chavez is isn't she just the greatest she's super the greatest and she's gonna have more powers by the time we see her next she might even be sorceress supreme you know she opens a portal to let's say that other wonder universe right the portal do you remember the portal's rules as they were first stated was you have to picture the thing you're looking at I think it was no way home that added you can do it via thinking of a person individually but I'm not sure if that's true there's a couple of things I'd have to check in the other movies to see if that was kind of it doesn't matter my point is that if you opened up that star portal does it then mean that he could picture that and thus open the portal or would he be like can't do it as a different universe not working I don't know what their logic would be for that exactly and then if he stood in that universe can he just not use the sling ring at all you know what I mean is the sling ring attached to the universe it was created in and I know the very fact if I said this to Michael Waldron he would glaze over you got paid money you got paid money for this Michael can you please make sense of it to me it gets used in infinity war and that was pretty important Doctor Strange was a pretty mid-film but it had the time stone in it established its rules and implemented a character that would serve a major role in future movies wouldn't that be the value of the film not the fucking time stone be like is this guy the first one I don't care about as much the second one I care about immensely this guy we know his full history we know what he values we know what he went through and now when we see him and Tony on the same fucking screen we're like oh shit what would they say to each other these two characters that are so fucking ego driven that believe they are the individual protector and leader of Earth what would they do when they have to make decisions and I think Infinity War paid that off really well yep yeah especially in the fucking two minutes it had to do it but this multiverse free line seems very ill-defined and doesn't really seem to be building to anything other than it may be bringing the X-Men or completely reboot the franchise oh yeah remember that remember Ralph Boda fuck they make so many bad decisions the same goes for all the other things going on the marvels and secret invasion are apparently going to be showing off the development of a scroll invasion in the Marvel Universe and I can't see how that will have anything to do with anything or why I mean I don't think it'll have anything to do with anything because it's really badly written but the idea of scrolls being in and throughout all of Earth it's like yeah that could have everything to do with everything yeah just because even if we had a free line it doesn't mean other things stop happening like a lot of the ideas are not bad conceptually I really think this guy's whole issue is the Phase 4 is badly written and he's tried to pin it on this particular idea but I just don't think it works the whole like Phase 4 is without a plan it's building towards something that nobody really even sees the components for and that's the problem that's not really the problem nobody would give a fuck if they were really good exactly that's what a lot of this is no one would care if it was all really good and be no superhero fatigue if it was all good content Garren's fucking to you people would be talking about how much of an incredibly good idea it was to go from Phase 3 this glorious over the top super spectacle to Phase 4 a calm exploration of individual stories dealing with individual problems and then we're going to build back up again that was a genius move by the MCU but instead we're going to build where they badly wrote everything so now we're saying like you know what the problem is they didn't build up to something they're not unified that's the problem or really have any place in this universe other than being an excuse to have all these characters crossover again which I'm completely over at this point I'm not completely over if it's well written give me more of the crossovers if you do it well fuck it Mac universes have now become something that's almost expected in the modern franchise landscape you got the MCU the SSU the Sony Spider-Man universe which is sort of an MCU but not really it's called Venom's alternate Dr Michael Morbius in it DC has the DCEU which is their main continuity it's kind of a clusterfuck I like talking about the DC's fucking continuity it seems funny at least Marvel pretends that it's in the same universe sometimes I had no plan but there's some good stuff in there the Matt Reeves Batman universe which will have tie-in spin-off TV shows to accompany each movie Star Wars is trying its hand at a big connected TV universe which is where Star Wars was always like one continuity hence why I put I was like hang on Star Wars has had novels and video games like in its universe was Star Wars ever not a huge interconnected series like that's just what Star Wars was like it's just always been a big thing I guess it's always I guess something has changed now and that they're trying to emulate the really structuring and I guess like the format of the MCU but it's always been the thing that they try to get like Mando and stuff together I assume he's referencing that but the thing is he mentioned like a bunch of other franchises trying to go the way of the universe Star Wars was a universe before it was even you know before like Disney all of the extended stuff like I feel like yeah Star Wars if you said to Star Wars like look at you trying to copy Marvel they'd be like well maybe in releasing TV shows we're not copying them by having a universe the fuck we're the old man universe we've been here for ages well then again I guess Star Wars would have copied the comic universe it keeps going back it gives its own video in it of itself it's exhausting at this point I don't know about all of you but for me I'm getting a little tired of the constant cameos and references that are being expected to sell tickets to go see these movies again yeah you gotta keep pushing that it's the quality argument that seems to be sort of missing from his video it's quality is such a huge part of all of us you're eating really bad fries and then burgers and then fucking sausages whatever all these different foods at McDonald's and then you go man I'm just I think I'm just tired of McDonald's they keep giving you really shitty those is more so the problem like if you had a really good sausage a really good burger really good fries you wouldn't be tired of McDonald's as a whole and we talked about before different quality from different McDonald's I just think that they've been giving you lots of shit recently and so you're just like what are the core components of this shit that go beyond writing quality it's like you don't need to go beyond writing quality that's all it is that's the big problem everything else will build up from it because again like isn't it kind of funny that no way home is basically the most praised of phase four when a lot of people need you want to call it like that's a key jangly one it obviously does toby maguire spider-man in it and it's like yeah yeah it does have that I guess it's just good or something it must be things in it yeah it must be that they execute that well because they're pretty well handled yeah being like oh do you know who's going to show up in secret wars like who and you're like fucking tom cruise ironman okay and you're like if it were like a really really good and well-executed thing a pretty fucking cool I'm here for it yeah absolutely I like it I don't understand I don't think this guy or anyone else would see that and be like oh for fuck's sake tom cruise fuck we didn't have some plan or didn't have some vision or some director thing I don't I don't believe I think it's much more about expecting it to be shitty which we shouldn't we feel like not could be good which I wish we didn't have to expect it to be but yeah let's be real the vast majority didn't go to watch the multiverse of madness because they love the character of dr. steven strain wow but you just said in your qualification for why dr. strange was good was that it established that he's a neat character also that is why I went actually you're right yeah but first he said dr. strange was mid and then he said but at least it established the time stone which then moves into you know having dr. strange and the time stone as part of infinity one it's like so why would you mention him if he wasn't a neat character I like I really did like dr. strange a lot what I liked about dr. strange the most was him dr. the titular dr. strain he had the um he's an arrogant piece of shit asshole but he was often correct and really smart and really talented and so it's like this is a fucking interesting dynamic let's uh let's test that against like you know him entering this whole world he knows nothing about and then and then you know he's like terrified of the all the shit he doesn't understand about sorcery and then gradually starts getting into it and then starts excelling to the point of impressing and worrying everyone else our villain is a character who got over zealous and overpowered and like ran off with it sort of things like you could argue a shadow self of a dr. strange to a degree his best friend is someone who eventually turns to like a third party would like becomes a third party by the end of it his mentor ends up dying in the film after explaining to him like how much he just doesn't fucking understand about any of this um I don't know there's so much going on for him and then infinity war begins the downfall where he starts making some strange like it's the it's the last decision he makes in that movie that you're like hmm yeah up until that point his interactions with Tony is really great it's like a good clashing of egos when his fight with Thanos is fucking great as well uh it was cool let's just share me forgot about all those abilities when he was fighting wonder I thought exactly the same thing when I first watched this video I'm just I went to see dr. strange have always liked this character even before Benedict was playing him like I liked him in the cartoons and some of the comics that are read and uh he's just like I guess this guy doesn't like dr. strange but you know speak for yourself because part of the craziest thing about it is if you when I went to see multi-visa matters after everything I knew I didn't even knew some of the leaks would be like so you go into see professor x and read richards and fucking captain Carter I'm like yeah no not really I'm also I'm hoping I'll be able to see not only some decent acting for Benedict to come about but maybe something that explores his character that'd be nice something admittedly I was curious about those elements but that was sure I was curious about how the whole thing was going to come together excited it was going to be a disaster and then it was a disaster but uh it was a disaster you know um I've he's been ruined several times over in several movies and that just stands to reason that his his draw as a character is quite powerful that I can keep being like sad that he gets ruined yeah yeah and this shot that you're paused on here reminds me of one of the other reasons I didn't like this movie was because I thought the the multiverses that we see were just surface level augmented I don't think they're very I don't think they're a very imaginative it's just like here's a universe where everything's covered in foliage and wearing everybody's wearing fedoras and it's like well yeah but that is very why the cool the cool thing to do with with multiverses is just it's so funny you've got a show that none of us really watched that is like what you know what if this happened it's like that's all you need to do to come up with interesting premises like an easy one we talked about what if the Chitari defeated the Avengers in 2012 what if a Loki won and like Earth falls under his domain and then they enter into a universe where they have to account for that and yet well like yeah if what if I mean I guess we're doing the really boring ones like what if I don't well they're a little bit boring I guess not imagine what if Ultron won and like took over this particular planet and then like put them in places where it's not just this is a slightly more utopian Earth and this is an Earth where everything is floating around like also red means green the mouth yeah that's wow that's like the laziest changes to like the world and it's you know all of the cool universe we saw in the montage all of the interesting places that we could have explored were in the montage like what if they went to a universe where everything was paint and they had to try and actually navigate a world where everything was paint what if they ended up in a dinosaur planet where they had to create Tyrannosaurus Rex and like Bronsosaurus and all of these these creatures what if they ended up in a universe evolved yeah I mean the laziness of it is hilarious almost on like a Rick and Morty level like I just remember like a universe where people are couches exactly the gag with the pizzas and the couches ordering people like like that was a great way of like embodying this idea of like the lack of intelligent design and all these different multiverses you have a universe where everyone's doing this fucking stupid thing for no reason and then you have a universe where everyone's doing this thing for no reason it is hilarious that a writer who worked on Rick and Morty produced such a thoroughly boring multiverse story when Rick and Morty is like super entertaining as a multiverse story for all of these crazy dimensions they go to yeah and then the icing on this shit cake sorry one last thing with this particular universe that he's in this fucking memory lane store that he walked past he just the store is called Memory Lane which on its own is just so lazy it's the laziest device I've ever seen incorporated flashback yeah and they use it twice in a row yeah he walks onto a pad outside the store and he triggers like a memory to manifest and it's like how does the store work is he being charged to his fucking like Amazon account or something wirelessly like it's on the streets of taste but if you buy the real if you buy your memory plus subscription it'll be a lot better just the fact that if they walked out a different street we wouldn't have received two plot critical flashbacks that explain one of the central arcs that Doctor Strange is going through and America's origin story it's so cringe dude I fucking hate it so much this was a reshoot I wouldn't be surprised if this was a reshoot this whole scene like feels like they're not where they're supposed to be I don't know but you know yeah I mean to turn down whoever that other prospective director was they turned him away in order to do their own thing like the idea that they turned him away to do this instead and it's called multiverse of madness you think like you want to invest a lot of imagination in the universes that he's traveling to but they're just the laziest shit here's the thing though John something that people will say when you talk about wanting more breadth to the multiverses oh yeah you just want to see like cameos and stuff but the reality is that you can substantively explore the multiverse and it really has nothing to do with cameos I don't need to see we could go to that Loki universe where the Chitari won and we don't even need to see Loki we could just see the Chitari and have that be a thing that they have to account for but the reason why it's interesting to have them account for it is what does Doctor Strange do in very unfamiliar territory when he doesn't know who the key players are what forces you know he has to account for what does it look like when Doctor Strange is thrown completely out of his comfort zone we don't get to see that very well no when you didn't see a multiverse of madness yeah well it's because they probably were going to do something more compelling when it was originally that but then they changed their mind and they were like yeah but the title sounds kind of cool so we're going to keep it and they're right it did sound kind of cool in terms of just oh that's kind of campy and weird let's see what they go with it and they were like oh it's a horror movie yep the hype in the trailer I thought that was all well done and then the movie came out and then it came out what are we going to do in this multiverse oh no worries this is like our own universe I know exactly where we need to go oh okay that's interesting yeah like wouldn't it be cool if you went to universe where there was no sanctum is like yeah go that oh shit right yeah oh this is just a fucking pizza store here what is happening what's going on in in preparation for this podcast I watched a couple episodes of what if and that does a much better job I think of like this idea of like exploring these other universes where people made different choices and a whole different world kind of manifested from that like it's not just surface level like everyone's wearing a stupid fucking hat all of a sudden you know what if they were zombies what if they're what what if Peggy Carter was you know super instead like at least there's a lot more imagination in yeah the changes are much more substantive I wish the writing was better in that as well because I was about to say that I agree with that yes yeah I was about to say like oh well it's in the premise they focus on I was like well so is this this is just shit yeah I think I think what what I actually when I look through the list of the premises that they came up with for what if I I think they could have done better I think they could have asked more I think I think the Peggy one's fine I think that one's okay but like what if what if Doctor Strange lost his heart instead of his hands it's like what is that like why can't we why can't we do something a little bit more interesting than that I did I did find the writing for it was lacking but it bothered me less than the other stuff because it was just trying to be like a fun kid's cartoon and I was just like whatever like kids will probably get a kick out of this I don't think a lot of adults are watching the show anyway you know like I mean I'm not saying that kids shows can't have good writing but I just wasn't it it's I find it really funny though that did because I'm pretty sure what if which are the have the Emmys haven't happened yet but like because Arcane was nominated for like best like Outstanding Animated Program but so was what if I swear to God there is an obvious winner there okay let's let's be reasonable if you take it to look at the lit hold on I just we can continue I'll I'll find it Angel wanted to see Sam Raimi's return to the superhero genre they went to see it because they thought they'd get to see Dr. Michael Morbius Professor Charles Xavier and Blackie Gar Boltigan I don't even know how many people knew that was happening in the general audience I don't think yeah I bet the second of all I just fucking that's not even relevant if you said to my like any of my fucking extended family are you excited to see Black and Gar Boltigan they would look at me like I'm speaking a different fucking language what do you mean Welsh what do you mean I would ask you I would have asked me I would have asked me what I'm talking about until I saw this I was like what was Black and Gar but it's like black balls and what's that it's from the show in humans that they popped up say back to what's that I never even knew that was a thing I missed it in humans was that a marvel thing in humans I almost forgot about that so the story of in humans is interesting because from what I understand because they didn't have access to X-Men for films the comics really pushed the inhumans as like a replacement for the mutants for a while then they got the rights back for the film so then they just gave up was that before they acquired 20th Century Fox yeah because of course the comics have always had X-Men but I think the comics at this point kind of follow the films in terms of in terms of you know like I think Fantastic Four were like relegated to the sidelines for a while and then when they got the film rights back it's like all of a sudden Fantastic Four gets a show off again that would be so lame if you're like reading comics and your favorite character gets pushed away because of fucking contracts that really annoyed me with Spider-Man back in the day when Sony still had the film rights I'm just like fuck man I really want to see what Marvel does with this Sony does have the film rights but they've reached some kind of partnership the funny thing is though people look at the upcoming Marvel movie so shit it's like yes because the MCU is the high watermark or the set of high bar for quality right now Sony, Marvel, DC nobody's on top in terms of what flavor of crap do you want in terms of a box office you can pick one but I guess if you were to from the stew be like you get to have one new one which one would be the best out of Marvel DC Sony giving you one which one would you gun for which one would I gun for like right now do you mean or in general yeah no right now like with how the studios are working it's a mystery project you're going to get one from each of them which would you think is going to be the best I think I think I'd go with DC I think I might take a chance on Sony I might feel like fuck I don't know because there's some stuff with Sony here and there like Spider-Verse everybody forgets that it doesn't exist without Sony and think about how Into the Spider-Verse has now pushed a lot of animation studios to be more experimental with 3D animation styles like look at what DreamWorks is doing now that doesn't exist without Into the Spider-Verse I don't think maybe not with Spider-Man right now they own Spider-Man all of the associated characters which is a lot of characters all the villains all of the like anti-hero spin-off characters because they're making a madame web film also yeah I probably would go with DC thinking about it actually because you got Joker and the Batman were pretty you know what I do like about what DC is doing right now is that their production workflow is less centralized than Marvel's is where they don't like storyboard everything meticulously that's not a lot that's not lasting now they're gonna change that no since they've come up with this 10 year plan I suppose that's going to the wayside now but here's the thing the problem is like I wish I could be like yeah it's been fun the scattershot approach but I don't like it I don't like that um maybe I'd like it more if all the films were great but they're not and so like what we have is this universe that's lurching forth where it's like yeah I because I really like the Batman I also like the idea of Batman in like a more wacky comic book world where we get to see like Mr. Freeze or Poison Ivy or um or like Killer Croc were not not the one that we saw in the Suicide Squad but like you know more of the um it would be cool to see Batman interacting in a world that you see more often in like animation in the comics than we've seen in the films it would be cool to have Superman films with like a really you know like the good guy Superman like the altruistic yeah that one is awesome um and it's just yeah but the problem is that because it's been lurching forth with this like weird half and half committal to like we want to do new things but also we exist in the same universe as films that we don't like to talk about anymore it's um uh did you forget Batman or Robin no I could never forget Batman or Robin what I'm saying who could forget that movie a miracle I'm saying it would be more cool to have that again in a broader universe where he can like you know it's it's something we don't get to talk about a lot but like Batman and Superman you know Bruce and Clark are meant to be best friends we've never got yeah that we've never seen that um it's it's um it's lame it'd be cool if we got to see that and then we have more action films anyway yeah I think because this sentiment is like oh you get your Aquaman boots of prey fucking this that the Snyder one is like isn't it nice that it's kind of more of a flurry and we don't actually have to have it all be connected up and it's like would you really be complaining if all of these things were good and connected up I don't think you would be look at how disconnected that is and how confusing it was to everybody yeah everybody's like wait you can fly she can't fly dude when um I can't remember if we covered it on eFab I think we did but just so pointing out Wonder Woman is fucking annihilating people in the Snyder cut when she's established in 84 to be like she would never hit someone that is not how she solves problems it's like so those two things are incongruent and then fucking people on Twitter will like uh no they're not that's two different directors two different ideas oh fuck off it's like but yeah that's what we that's what you just saved my thing again that's the same continuity it's like they're not the same continuity they're different movies it's like oh I got that argument recently um the uh like I'm responding to the he was I was because we were talking about the how lightsabers um in the Kenobi show seemed really really anemic and weak and Kenobi has to hit yeah he has to hit stormtroopers like they're baseball bats and it bounces off and we talked about how it used to slice up droids and chop off limbs and stuff like that and they were serious business and the response from him was well that's just directors in their own that's just directors in their vision and you can't fault you know them for having their own little each director having their own if you're gonna make that argument could I not make the argument scene by scene like this was the direction and vision in this scene and now this scene they have a different direction and vision therefore it doesn't have my chance yeah one direction and in this shot they had another one when this was shot he wasn't even there so it was probably the interns vision I don't know you get benefits and trade-offs from doing sequels and you don't get to pick and choose them no yeah you have to commit you can leverage the story that existed before to enhance your own the detriment is you have to be consistent and then with the story that came before you can't just do whatever you want it's the fuck up they always make they're like we want Kenobi because he's really cool and you're like alright here he is and here's all the stuff that comes with him nah I don't want that stuff nah I don't want that one I just want a character oh you have to take these courageous with you and you're like nah fuck that no he isn't I watched the movie I hadn't heard about that directors vision thing in regard to the lightsabers and that's pretty bullshit I mean because they're just gonna if they're gonna bounce off anything why don't they just make them like swords cutting through droids but bouncing off storm troopers exactly that's part of my argument if they're slicing effortlessly through metal robots then man your ass are going through a person even easier nah but we can't have limbs disassembling that would be we can't do that even though we want to present our story as mature and like a slow character study but we can't have people getting chopped up even if they went with one slice and it makes a big old mark down them and they fall down I'll take it that's something it's like in return of the Jedi Luke's going around and hitting people but there ain't no limbs flying off or anything but he hits them once and they're done yep I'm fine with that get to see Dr. Michael Morbius oh yeah I want to roll him back a little bit further because I think he said someone else that triggered me go see these movies let's be real the vast majority didn't go to watch the multiverse of madness because they love the character of Dr. Stephen strange or you say Sam Raimi's return to the superhero genre they went to see it a lot of people were saying the Sam Raimi thing that was it marketing man it was they totally did so all of the people are going to see this and you go what are the total reasons like most commonly this is like a game show what are the most commonly voted upon reasons to go see it like for the character of Dr. Strange that's going to be a lot of people because this is in the MCU that's probably the biggest reason is there's a good chance for these cameos that I swear to fuck most normal people didn't even know this was happening most people even if they did like if they knew that there would be these cameos they wouldn't they'd just be like you know what I mean like what would they say oh black bolt I know so much about you yeah and then what else we got it's like uh I guess progressing the overall story it's like no I don't even know if anybody's there for that I don't know maybe yeah I just I don't believe at all that it's like no they're in it for the cameos like I got that that'll be how they try to sell the next thing and that's a lot of people on like twitter but you like mainstay movie audience I think they're still going off the fact that this is the MCU yeah that's lovely but hey that might die gradually if you're not careful I thought they'd get to see Dr. Michael Morbius, Professor Charles Xavier it would have been cool to see Morbius I don't disagree with that I choose to interpret that edit as that he thought that was shit too which that's the correct opinion yeah I have a seething hatred for the line hit a guy, hit a there whatever the fuck that is it's weird how mean they are to him I don't like it amazing visual flair from Sam Raimi what you're left with in Dr. Strange and the multiverse of madness is a pretty dull and forgettable story and experience I don't even why does this always happen where you get this insane nonsense crap film and someone goes oh it's so dull I don't know that it was dull the movie was not dull I was never bored watching multiverse of madness I would say it's break neck with the fucking pacing this film is insane we go from she first establishes the offer of you will give America to me in like 24 hours or whatever or I will there will be consequences fast forward like 7 minutes and we're traveling through the multiverse because the whole battle is already done 8 action scenes in that film I'm pretty sure and there's the gargantuan and then there's the kamatage and that's act 1 that's the first 30 minute reaction it feels fucking wild dude I would actually say that I found that film dull and by the time I was in the third act I was just waiting for it to end but it wasn't for a lack of action it's because I wasn't invested in anything I was invested in the characters or the situations and that's the thing I don't think it's invalid to describe anything especially because it's your own experience as dull it's just that if the reasoning is going to be that I wasn't invested then at that point it's just like oh well then it's not because it was dull it's because you weren't invested so I would try and categorize dull to be a meaningful description of anything is usually to describe that it's very mundane nothing's happening at all that's of any interest or difference I had a dull experience I suppose yeah I think that's the difference saying that it felt very dull to you is kind of different than saying it is dull because it really doesn't imply that there's not much going on in this film and I'd be like this is one of the most insane fucking MCU movies that there are right the question isn't particularly rooted in anything meaningful the protagonist is really blind and his arc is mostly forgettable see I have completely different issues he has like five arcs at once and they're all nonsense it's not that there's like nothing going on and I think there's work done to really pinpoint that they are trying to do some arc stuff but there's just such disjointed and cut pieces all over the place that it just doesn't match like the whole are you happy thing he must have noticed all of the characters keep fucking asking are you happy it's like hmm I wonder why that is at the end the vlog is just like yeah I am alright then I'm completely ding ding ding exactly I think they're crap but they are there like uh they're just really really badly done that's really awful given the way the MCU is attempting to elevate some of its properties now you can't help but reflect on Martin Scorsese Martin I remember when he made the film about the wolf straight guy who said fuck and beat his wife good times a couple of years ago the Marvel fanboy in film side of the internet lost their collective shit over Martin the wolf hey don't forget to highlight that the other side lost their shit too everyone lost their shit Scorsese saying in an interview that Marvel movies are not cinema and you're gonna contextualize it to mean something completely different on you I'm sure it'll be really insightful here we go which is definitely a loaded statement to make that I don't really care to debate it's just wrong I don't know why people have trouble with this if what you want to say is the films are shit go for it I would agree with you saying they're not cinema it reminds me of when people say like fuck it Ryan Johnson is not an artist I'm sorry he is he is I'm sorry if you're putting images to film you are making cinema and that can be bad or good exactly however again if you really want to run with your own personal definition and cinema means film that is good and meaningful fine that's just not the word fiction and literature thing isn't it yeah but it's just not at all how it's used colloquially and I just don't know why you're doing this if not to piss everyone off why don't we just be a little bit more precise in what we're saying it's shit it's fine if Monscoz says he said that shit then it'd be like yeah totally agree dude fuck it everybody but this one is just like wait what exactly what do you mean I suspect what he's getting at is like integrity, consistency and self-containment when it comes to the production and release of these films but he's using the wrong word to encapsulate all that he shouldn't be using the word cinema I don't think which is definitely a loaded statement to make that I don't really care to debate when taken at surface level what Scorsese was actually trying to pause it is that Marvel movies here's what he's actually trying to say they all do it but that's fine even though he clearly clarified you know multiple times he clarified and obviously his clarification was arguably worse when we covered it this is what he really means Scorsese is just an old man he doesn't know what he's saying remember the guy we said who was like when it gets to a point of being a franchise we're like what the fuck are you talking about no that's not at all what he was no fundamentally do not provide the same experience as your typical view of what a movie is using the metaphor of theme park rides each film essentially functions as its own attraction providing brief bursts of dopamine essentially when you go and see an Avengers film you're not going for the sake of getting an emotional and cinematic experience here we are again everybody welcome back we have completely changed everything I made it I was thinking about this the other day I found it interesting that you know Martin Scorsese would describe the Marvel movies disparagingly as a theme park ride but I would say that's an accurate descriptor for the Wolf of Wall Street which is quite a shallow and bloated movie but I don't dislike that movie it's shallow and bloated by design because it's actually thematically relevant like it's part of the theme of that movie that he lives this really shallow and excessive lifestyle and that kind of manifests itself in the way the movies actually made but given that I don't think he should be tossing that term around disparagingly to something like Marvel it's like well you've kind of done the same thing like would you say Wolf of Wall Street isn't cinema? did he go as far as saying like superhero movies in general or was it just Marvel? probably superhero movies in general because I was going to say now with the Batman having come out do you really think it's fair even though the Joker was already out let's use a different example like Richard Donner's Superman I doubt he has that perspective on that film I doubt he has this perspective on a lot of blockbuster films like you probably would do about Jaws or Jurassic Park or ET yeah and I doubt the guy who made this video would agree that those should all qualify either which is why it's such a it screams to me that same smug energy that Jay Bowman had when he was like Todd Phillips he's not a real filmmaker like oh f**k off didn't say that about Nolan's Batman films he probably wouldn't say it about Raimi's Spider-Man films either I appreciate that so at that point it's like so we're not really talking about super what I think if we were doing best faith is almost that like these are projects where you don't think that the filmmakers are at the helm of the filmmaking and you think that there's a compromise there problem is how do you account for guardians where like a vision does shine through despite being a you know despite being a marvel cinematic universe big old budget production and so yeah the end of the day it's s**t and maybe because we would agree on this as well we don't like the process that is used to make these films which I don't I really don't like the we start with the project and we find the people who are gonna make it and then we make it and we need to get it out at this quarterly we need to get it out you know for the second quarter of the fiscal year and we gotta get it on the streaming service like yeah I don't like that s**t either but he didn't say that he said that they weren't cinema it's a very different thing they are they just suck I don't like that dismissive like disparaging characterization of Todd Phillips either just because he made a few missteps with the hangover series I think he had a lot of hangover one's a good movie I agree it's great I think he I think he screwed up quite a bit with the second and third ones but I think with Joker he finally found his footing like there was an alignment with what he wanted to do and what the studio wanted and I think before that there was like they were butting heads you know like he wanted to clearly made the distinction between the two I've got to find the quote because this happened last time we talked about it where people were telling us that the quote was different than what it was hold on second place in Mario Kart not bad what someone said his point is aging his point is aging very well it's like it can't age well it doesn't matter how bad the superhero movies get yeah he said in superhero this is so he wrote a new york times op-ed where he clarified it and it was titled I said Marvel movies aren't cinema let me explain and the subtitle the tagline is cinema is an art form that brings you the unexpected in superhero movies nothing is at risk that's a very broad statement it's not true it's not true it's not true well I guess this is the point right I mean I'm not going to read the whole the whole op-ed the thing why we're forced into defending it it's just like you understand guys you've been listening to us complain about this non-stop and it's just like so you you do understand we're not biased in favor of the fucking phase four I just think it's ridiculous that we're at the point of being like oh no it's not cinema at all it's like oh come on yes quite yeah we occupy this space where it's like we're not on the Marvel guy's side in terms of extolling the wonder of like the Marvel cinematic universe artistically but at the same time we're not going to pretend that it isn't art it is it's just bad art it's so much simpler the world is easier to understand it's so much simpler when it's all art and you just decide whether it's good or bad rather than it is sufficiently bad that it's no longer artistic expression when it all is brief burst of dopamine essentially when you go and see an Avengers film you're not going for the sake of getting an emotional and cinematic experience you're going because it's an attraction because you want to see who will turn out what will happen the big I don't tell me what I want I'm trying desperately not to just I just let him go because I disagree so fucking hard on this but it's okay the favorite moments that everybody cites in superhero movies are actually a lot of the time the big important like how many people in Logan like when they talk about Logan when they talk about their favorite parts of that film how many of them are going to be like yeah it was so cool when X23 like showed up that he was in the film like how many people are going to say that versus citing like the final scene in that film any emotional moments in that movie what does it say about Infinity War that one of the first things my head goes to for best scenes is just Thor talking about how much he's lost it's like oh yeah that's just an attraction you're just there for the roller coaster everybody's favorite of emotions the conversation he has with May like a lot of the most a lot of the best moments that people cite in these films are what you're getting in a lot of films where it's conversations between two people that you care about the emotional catharsis of like a situation right where dead able to punish her talking on the rooftop every time that scene he's talking at the cemetery and if we had the go next spider-man movies coming out and it's going to deal with the fact that he's starting to believe that he needs to open up again that he's been isolated because of what happened after No Way Home and this is the movie that starts to challenge really is that the best way forward that I'm like ah I'm sold and if they go also the lizard is going to be in it I'd be like okay that's fine alright sure yeah sure let's see what they do with him I suppose this guy the way that he's explaining this it sounds like it should be the reverse for me where they go he's going to be dealing with blah blah blah blah yeah yeah yeah who's in it who's in it Lizard ooh aww sweet okay Lizard yeah what else what we got Doc Ock come on give me Doc Ock I hope it'll be as good as Spider-Man 3 when we find out like Doc Ock and Green Goblin were in No Way Home the first thought we all have is like oh shit please don't fuck them up yeah and what are we referring to when we say that character writing because that's why we are here obviously not everyone is there for the same reason to stop telling me I don't turn up for the meaningful stuff that I'm only there to go oooooh look at the cool colors dude have you guys seen Mask of the Phantasm the animated from 1993 has seen the Phantom that's so long I don't remember it well Batman one is the reason I watched that has like a scene in it when he's just talking not even he's not even talking to a person he's talking to the graves of his parents and it's like a conflict in his interest and it's fucking amazing I think it has the best reputation of all animated movies for Batman right and I see why I see why it's really good it's really good no are they for those technical Joker is in it look at Batman he's running around it's funny as well because we were talking earlier about how like what division fell the fuck apart what we had what he's describing here the fucking laser people attacking all the witches are firing the spells at each other oooooh there's some ruins on the sky the dome is falling apart it doesn't have spells in it meanwhile we were like the most interesting part was the dinner table where they were saying things kind of weird and off and it was clearly noticeable that this is not right proud please it's your favorite mask it's a big purple asshole it's actually pretty meaningful that he can pick up me on there but why should I even bother at this point it's fine bear in mind this is Marty's opinion and not mine the statement of them will not be wait hang on that's not even Marty's opinion you made all that up that's not what he said isn't it fucking hilarious that they like I know what Martin meant it is hilarious I know he's just an old man doesn't know what he's talking about especially when it comes to movies I'll let you know what he really means cinema and instead the theme park rides is a little bit of an over simplification information and aesthetic are metrics for what makes cinema the wire films like guardians of the galaxy lumped in with this theme park idea because I like Marvel movies he's almost there so he just went like ok if I'm to believe you're correct Marty we can't include guardians too because that's really good it's like no we can't include any of them it's not fair just because you like guardians too a lot it's very well shot or very unique compared to the rest that doesn't make it cinema with the rest aren't it's a movie where and it's emotion and characters come before anything else see it's a I'm very disappointed that you you almost have this close yeah so close like I said what isn't isn't cinema is a pointless debate that comes down to subjectivity and how it wouldn't be pointless if we had better definitions of what we're even fucking talking about would it like if we're just like objectively we had a definition it could be much better off because everyone's just shouting at each other at this point pretentious you are but digging past the surface level of what Marty the ace Scorsese was getting at is a sentiment I agree with and is apparent now that's what he was getting at what was he truly getting at using words I just think people what have you seen is agree with Scorsese because he's one of the most legendary directors of all time like you would you would want to be like if if if maybe he'd made five bad bad movies in a row maybe people like maybe he's wrong actually you know it's fine to disagree with someone it really is even if they're very important I mean every every scientist can can bite the bullet on the fact that Isaac Newton was also an alchemist right it's fine it's okay bringing you an alchemist I can't remember um we don't you know you can ask me about that on a different day I guess I'm too tired I'm too tired to give you the scripted answer wait did I say that once uh-oh oh my goodness gracious alchemist confirm they just said good points but someone in chat said y'all mad so you're wrong damn it well that's it for tonight goodbye watching most of these shows and movies because they're looking for art that will satisfy your challenge a world viewer desire plenty are just empty spectacle of a paper thin story to service the action sure plenty are some art I mean you could even if they were mostly thin like there's only a speck of kind of like oh there's something interesting there isn't that enough as long as you have something the story have to be before being cinema as soon as the the fact that we were bringing up the whole ground calculus thing in dark strange it doesn't deal with it it doesn't talk about it but there's something in there that I can now discuss does that count or does it not I don't know factory filmmaking is a real thing and if there's one thing Martin Scorsese factory filmmakers a real thing is like not shocking at all he's right about is that it's an incredibly damaging precedent for the industry as a whole when referring to the current bad I was gonna say like it wouldn't be that way if they were really well executed movies yeah quality is king I mean you could say all film studios are factories but like what he's implying that like it's like soulless filmmaking sometimes it is sometimes it isn't I don't know that you could have a soulless film that is still cinema because to be fair what does soulless truly be I'm not exactly sure we're all kind of abigot something vague on the line of they made it without thinking about anything really hot and soul in there you guys know that soul versus soulless meme verse like something with better graphics and slightly worse graphics and it's like like if something has better graphics it immediately is soulless yeah like the term gets thrown around a lot very loosely Mulan was soulless how that was how do you that was hilarious that movie was called Mulan that's interesting over saturation of the superhero genre Martin Scorsese said in many places around this country and around the world franchise films are now your primary choice if you want to see something on the big screen you're going to tell me that it's simply a matter of supply and demand and giving the people what they want I'm going to disagree it's a chicken and egg issue if people are only given one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing wouldn't it have been proven already by the fact that some make more money than others that people are coming to see some and not others it's not just that they're there absolutely I mean it's there are all kinds of movies and they're all quite easy to access supply and demand it really answers this question because the fact that DC are like fuck what sells and what doesn't drop the stuff is not selling no one ever says all these MCU movies nobody wants those stop making them we it's not chicken and egg because we can point to a time when superhero films weren't dominant at the box office and then we can slowly see the transition into superhero films becoming dominant in the box office like we look now at you know the cinema that has 40 screenings for multiverse of madness and while there's only one screen like the Northman that's now art and the market just told the cinema is what they want which is broadly franchise films people want to see Fast and Furious they want to see Marvel movies they want to see I guess I don't want to see Harry Potter anymore they want to see Star Wars to some extent and I I am a firm believer that you have those hundreds of thousands of Twitter accounts who are like the Northman art great blah blah blah blah blah they all went and saw Doctor Strange they didn't go to see the Northman the thing I remember most distinctly from no way home like one of my definitely one of my top favorite scenes is when all the Spider-Man convene on the rooftop and they're all kind of broken in their own ways and they all kind of find they kind of repair their emotional states through sharing their grief with one another and they realize how much they have in common with what they've lost and it's all really well acted I think and stuff like that that's the stuff that like I see that in a movie I'm just like fuck that was great like I'm always good even if the rest of the movie is shit even if the rest of the movie is shit like I'm always going to remember that scene for like the rest of my life yeah that's what we call key jangling that's not cinema I'm afraid you're just key jangling people called it key jangling and I was just like it's substantive they're literally talking about what makes them who they are what do you mean yeah this quote that's being read as something that Scorsese said verbatim and I find it interesting because it doesn't put a lot of faith into the audience to more clearly understand what it is they because it's what he's kind of saying is you don't actually want this you think you want it but like I don't know if that's true I think people do want like what I think they want it and it's it's weird to almost say like nah you've been bamboozled the studio has told you this is what you want but it's not really what you want you want to watch films that just people aren't going to see as much I think more grim there's gotta be a more grim realization which is that just think about it transformers made like hundreds of millions of dollars like that used to be what we would cite as like the shit blockbuster that makes so much money despite being absolutely meritless and they keep making them because they they put it out and then they go what was the profit on one of our assets it was huge what was it it's like transformers what is that and it's like make another one whatever it is and then next year they're like so how did that one do like yeah asset two even more money this time they're like fuck it all really what is this transformers thing and then like it's just some thing about robots I don't even know yeah make a whole bunch of them fuck it that's how the idea that they're like we shall put out transformers again and again and they will fucking buy it or come into their house with gun and make sure like come on we know that we know that it's much more forced by the the fact that people are actually going to see this shit because we this films failing right now when they come out it has to be to do with that but at the same time I'll happily grant there is still like a another another element to it that still exists like captain marvel was definitely an example of a movie that they put out everyone was just like sure let's do it like I'll like this and then it like worked out but there's lots of other factors that go into that the idea that it's just like this is a problem because like I don't know marvel studios just get to dictate now what everyone's tastes are going to be like we're already the fact that phase four is not making as much money as they would like it to already and they've been putting out shit that's crap like I don't know I just I don't I don't buy this I don't think that we'll be here forever it's weird that school says evil people would say this when he would be more than aware of all the phases of Hollywood's gone through all the genre is getting popular and less popular we shall see everyone's talking about how this is the end of the superhero timeline in terms of its popularity in the industry that we're seeing like one of the you know phases of it dying out now we'll see well we're still getting zombie shit and that that was the phase before the superhero craze well to be fair we're still getting westerns but they just you know they died down they're not the king yeah they weren't like last stream we're talking about bonanza gun smoke little house in prairie all the ones that aren't coming to the top of my head dozens of seasons can you call zombies a genre like western is a genre if we're calling superheroes a genre we can call zombies a genre yeah sure but but then I would apply the same thing to superheroes in west dude I'm with you I've been saying that forever we don't know the superheroes as a genre we'll have the same trajectory as something like a western because western seemed a lot more locked down compared to superheroes that can literally be fucking anything yeah you can make a west number of superhero movies exactly you can make an anything with superhero movies just make any movie you've ever seen make one of the characters unfortunately no cinema anymore sorry oh heck it's a chicken and egg issue if people are only given one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing I guess that's what's amusing about it right it's like they're not sold one kind of thing they're sold lots of things everything everywhere all at once was a different kind of thing and it managed to actually the prize in terms of its success maverick was a different kind of thing and look how fucking well that did right well you'll have seen that one it's funny how cynical I usually am and I'm like no down with your cynicism boo it's a chicken and egg issue if people are only given one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing of course they're going to want more of that one kind of thing and I tend to agree it's too much it's unhealthy for the industry and it's unhealthy for our minds what? I don't know about that like I'm okay don't worry about me I'll be fine yeah I'm good I'll check out some of the movies I find I think it's more than healthy for us to watch them and then talk about them and how badly all well they're doing I'm going to be fine alright as for unhealthy for the industry I don't know man the industry is basically dictated by the consumers so is it not healthy I don't know I'm not on board with this idea either that superhero movies are destroying cinema in the same way that I don't think comic books are destroying literature you know it's like people want what they want there's a demand for comic books and great books were still written alongside comic books I mean and great movies are still coming up like I get like there's always a superhero movie on like the Marquis when you go to a theater but like I don't really see that as an issue I just you wouldn't want to be that guy when your group of friends go to see you'll go ah that was terrible yeah that was bad the one friend goes this is unhealthy um you know come on Jerry like we can we can watch a movie and riff what he's like no you need to stop encouraging we're going to the hospital right now wait what alright I didn't realize this was fine I'm by no means immune either I went to see doctor strange because I didn't want to be left behind with the rest of the world and because I was interested it's not a whole different thing though yeah but that's all that's gone that's just to do with social stuff that's just talking to people you want to be in on the new topic hang on isn't this the guy that said nobody's talking about the MCU anymore and then he said the whole reason I got to see this stuff is to be able to talk about it with people yeah I think you're right yeah make sure it's a re-draft it's a great thing if you catch these little things I'm never going to get tired of good movies with superhero elements of them like I'm still not tired of good westerns just because they're not on top yeah it's fine I'm just a big fan of good stuff hell yeah yeah unbelievable I'm sorry you're the person okay yeah you're a massive hypocrite then shut the fuck up are you a hypocrite if you say the thing you're doing is bad but you know you're doing it that is still hypocrite alright if you're a critical of any behavior but then you do the thing and it's like well you need to qualify this seriously I think that was so blatant that it passed my hypocritical senses because I was just like wait well here's a question because I'm pretty sure I said explicitly last week I'll probably watch the show because of Daredevil what do you make of that well I would defend you as saying I doubt you're watching it because you enjoy Daredevil you want to see the damage he's actually a character you have investment in it's the same reason why we watch all of this stuff is because we're doing it for our job I already told you guys there's plenty of these things I wouldn't have seen by now if it went for what we do I was almost done with the MCU in phase 2 Civil War is what dragged me back into the MCU I was like fine if you're really going to try and take this more seriously fine and then Infinity War I was like fuck me I'm really invested again this is going great you guys know the rest you lived it I would wait to see the execution of incorporating Daredevil into the show missing it as a cheap tactic I've seen the images he's got his yellow and red costume we see it the other angle there as well is that you might be hypocritical I think you'd probably just be like yeah I got a weakness on that one or something like that I could understand you saying that and that would be fine I think this guy by I mean he must acknowledge this right I'm part of the problem I assume that's coming next I don't know because the thing that people accuse us every once in a while is like aren't you guys paying for tickets and thus fueling the thing and talking about it making more awareness just like pretty sure we cost them more tickets than we'll ever get for them overall and we're constantly trying to be critical of their work to direct and advise on what we believe would be the better thing and the second they make any good stuff or even good scenes good moments we try to highlight them to be fair because we're invested in what is the greatest in the sense of most people watching the greatest show being put on ever in terms of a story in our world right now culturally and we love storytelling here that's Efebs foundation yes we do it's good stuff yeah like I would go over all the different components for involved for why we're watching this stuff despite saying that people probably shouldn't be watching this stuff because of how shitty it is and I was going to say another element that proves I think that we're doing this more so for the work is the fact that we miss out on loads of it because we don't have to watch it all even for the work right like we don't even you know like I'm not going to see echo when that comes out I didn't even want Hawkeye yeah hopefully I don't have to I just realized by the way like 10 minutes ago that I totally forgotten about Hawkeye's existence yeah like I realized because I think there was footage from Hawkeye it's like dude that was like a show like that's part of this phase out of all the shows that was definitely one of them that was definitely one of them oh people are saying he's in chat guy who made this let me know if you would like to jump on and have a chat with us you found your video interesting oh that'd be great certainly interesting Hawkeye show looks really lame and kind of bad but I'll see it just because I want to see Daredevil show up so many of these movies sell their appeal on that promise of somebody significant or somebody who will be significant showing up I mean it did get him to watch She-Hulk so he's going to watch She-Hulk because of it so that is true does it count for nothing because Daredevil is a cameo but to be fair he was literally in Spider-Man for what like 10 seconds but like tell me why Spider-Man for example if someone said that's just a cameo I'd be like I feel like you're underselling what they managed to do with that I want to make sure of a distinction between a cameo and just the character being part of the story suppose you could define it as a cameo but it's an integration in this movie makes a lot of sense it's really well executed if that's what everything was going to be going forward alright even this freeze frame sort of shows how they're both like it's coming through the window Daredevil's raising his arm to catch it Peter's got his hand up to catch it I mean they're both kind of on that same wavelength superhero wise oh yeah that was a good beat I like that I liked it too yep I think a lot of the things Martin Scorsese said about Marvel is kind of misinformed and hyperbolic but honestly the metaphor comparing the MCU to a theme park is a perfect analogy no it's not theme parks are good theme parks give me joy and happiness I don't know what to say they give me delicious funnel cakes I saw someone in chat say like that what this was another example I think of informing what you know trying to compensate for what Martin Scorsese actually said but like that superhero no because that's not good enough either you need to be more specific saying superhero films like fast food it's like no just the bad ones maybe like if you want to so it's not superhero it's just bad content like a bad film, bad television shows yeah how does that work analogy wise with like tasty fast food though what is that exactly like I don't I just I find these distinctions we don't need to make additional categories to distinguish between what we would consider to be good and bad in that medium we can just say it's all art it's all cinema it's all television it's all everything it's just good or bad that's the metric that matters he said in chat I'm aware this is a very flawed video on a script level and I'm not going to get up in arms over people talking about it not going to lie I just found this interesting well yeah I mean if you want to jump on though yeah I'm assuming that's him saying he doesn't want to but totally up to you man what I would say is that I was just linked this video at some point and I listened to a portion of it and then I was like alright I think this is a great little vehicle for discussing broader topics about the MCU I've agreed with you on a bunch of stuff I just also disagree with you on a bunch of stuff that's all it's a video alright I'm not sure if it's I think that in the case of this video I think it's the conclusions that are being drawn are like lining up kind of but I think it's that we disagree on how we go I think our workings are different well yeah our answer is much more boring I think which is that it's just badly written yeah because your title is Phase 4 kind of sucks a lot I agree I don't think I agree on the reasoning but then again I'm not sure that you disagree with our reasoning either I imagine if we are because at the end of the day it's all that it's bad right like that's the most important part that it's bad stories if it was good maybe you'd have a different opinion like maybe it would change how much the homogeneity or the process that's being used to make the films or the saturation in the industry maybe that would change how important you think that is wait someone just said okay Fringy if 90% of superhero content is bad how important is it to stress that it's the work and not the genre you all mentioned that the Star of Phase 4 was bad but you liked knowing home you just highlighted why it's important yeah you've highlighted exactly why it's important I don't want to shit on bad things because I'm too lazy to make a distinction between what I'm talking about why would I do that yeah like if 90% of the things are bad well so we say it's label X and we hit 100% of things or we say it's this other label we hit accurately 90% of the things that are actually bad well we'll go for the more accurate label won't we so let's say this film is bad because X attribute well no this film has X attribute and it's good sounds like X attribute kind of has nothing to do with it sounds like we need to identify a more accurate attribute that explains why we have this opinion like that's all this is so in this case it's not that they're saying superhero films are bad pretty strongly implies that it's something to do with the genre that they are or like something that is inextricable from superhero films as a medium but that's not true because they're great superhero films it's like oh so what is the actual real underlying explanation and the explanation is it's not well written it's not telling a good story and has nothing to do with being a superhero story so we can just be more accurate with our with our labels I don't want to throw good stuff in with like the bad just because I don't want to clarify or find a more accurate explanation behind it I agree I don't know if you guys have seen it but I recently watched the movie called the innocence it's a Norwegian film about kids who have superpowers and these four kids kind of convene on like the social housing complex and they find out that they all have powers it's not really explained how they got the powers but whatever you just kind of go along with it they have powers and they learn about each other's powers and they interact in really interesting ways like one has is like severely autistic intent and can't talk but with the powers of another kid who can read minds she can speak through the autistic girl and speak fluent English and like the other there's one kid that can move things with his mind and like there's a scene where it's like one kid holds up a stick and it's like try to break the stick and he does it and it's just snaps in half and she's the girl who's holding the stick is laughing but and it's just like it plays with that tension because like sooner or later that's going to be somebody's leg or arm that gets broken and and there's like one at one moment the kid who moves stuff with his mind he like throws a rock at his mind with his mind really fast and another kid and the kid kind of ducks out of the way the tension of that like I don't know if any of you guys have had like a rock the size of a baseball thrown at you but like holy shit you you dodge that thing like it's a bullet you know and it's like you're kind of paralyzed with fear because it feels in that moment that any direction you run you're going to run in in the wrong direction and the rock is going to hit you and like it plays with that tension really well and it's it's the most grounded approach to people with superpowers that I've ever seen in a film I think like to the point where it's almost a horror movie and that can be you can call that a superhero genre film and I thought it was so great like really like unique and simple in its execution very little CGI a lot of it's practical using like like off-camera fans to create ripples in the water to give the impression that there's like force fields being shot at shot and generated at other people and I highly recommend it it's called The Innocence people in chat are asking but I really enjoyed that but yeah superhero film that was great and it wasn't bad just because it was a superhero film like you can do really interesting shit with it. It just reminds me of Chronicle that did a very good job with that as well. Chronicle was interesting as well yeah Chronicle's not art though I genuinely think that the guy who made this and even Martin would probably be like well no no no that is and you'd be like god damn it. Yeah Chronicle was doing the found footage thing and it's like yeah. Well I think they would almost see it as intuitive while we're like no it's not though that's the whole point it's not intuitive at all as to what is it is in Cinnabar When making this video I went back to see a couple of older MC releases chief amongst them being Iron Man won the first Avengers film and then game which was I don't know I think you would be the only one who catch that. Yeah The reason why is because I've just I've been trying to they come and go so quick. I'm pretty sure I heard Halo music briefly but I'm not sure that sounds like There's all kinds of music used in this I hear the source of that work What else? Hotline Miami Yeah. There's a lot of different tracks. He's quite good with his music selection like the hotline Miami music was specifically over top the part where peacemakers like killing people with a shotgun or something. Dude the guy the good editor. Yeah taking that away. He said about modern misinformed and hyperbolic but honestly the metaphor comparing the MCU to a theme park is a perfect analogy when making this video I went back to see a couple of older MC releases chief amongst them being Iron Man won the first Avengers film and Avengers Endgame which are an interesting selection because it shows a massive divide between Marvel and their beginnings to Marvel at the peak of success Marvel had taken a massive risk in starting this whole cinematic venture initially the company was in debt and unless their name was Spider-Man or Wolverine nobody gave a shit about giving some obscure comic book character a chance in their own movie so Iron Man was a very risky film. Nobody cared about the character it was coming out. Because we made a big thing about how Iron Man was a risk in response to him saying otherwise right I'm pretty sure he said small self-contained safe stories. Yeah which we were like well Iron Man wasn't safe it was the first one it was just yeah. At a time of steep competition and had lofty aspirations to be much bigger than it's one movie. And that's the thing he's making the argument for us now. It was like yep true. A risk that was worth $525 million in the entire Marvel catalogue. So what you're left with is a movie that feels bizarrely out of place when contrasted with the rest of the MCU's content. It didn't sell itself on its IP. Its lead actor was someone who had a spot... I think you can say this for a couple of the movies that they really are themselves it's not really much about this. Because he's saying it for this I think because of the fact that they really didn't have avengers in the horizon when they were making this. They were more like let's just make this work but yeah I feel like that senses in a lot of the movies in the earlier phases. I think so. Even the bad movies have it. It's okay. I imagine it was in the back of their mind but they probably treated the first Iron Man film kind of like a pilot for a series where they're just like let's see how this does. Build on top of that yeah. Reputation wasn't well known by the general public. It didn't sell itself on cameos and Easter eggs because they knew nobody would care about showing off Nick Fury or Shield. You say that as if they didn't have the potential for it but if the trailer had like he's like I'm gonna need help on this mission. I know a guy. He's Parker.  There was originally going to be a reference in the Incredible Hulk which was created with the same sort of like you know it's not it's two years later right so it's and it was by Oh fuck I always mix that up because those two were both made by a different there was like a different to them they were for the rest of the movies right so the first one was paramount so Iron Man was paramount and Incredible Hulk was universal yeah and then I think back to paramount again with the rest of phase one and then it was Disney for Avengers right I think because Disney Marvel in 2009 after a lot of the deals that already been sort of set in stone if I remember correctly I'd have to google it I'm pretty sure originally they were going to have Iron Man's cameo with Ross at the end of Incredible Hulk he was gonna say like oh man your project didn't go so well huh with your little experiment with the abomination stuff and he's like no and he's like you know I can relate I fucking gave a guy some metal arms over in a different city and he fucking ran them up as if to imply the Raimiverse is connected to the MCU that was something that was gonna be in there but they took it out Oh okay cause that post credit scene is still in there when he talks to Ross yeah I'm pretty sure you can go find this because I remember reading it and being like no way they were gonna do that huh interesting that is interesting it was a movie that wanted to be a big summer blockbuster that would attract a general audience and leave a lasting impression even today the movie has a lot of stuff in it that is sorely missed in its future entries the actual Iron Man suit still looks amazing also yeah this is the point that everyone should agree on if they don't they're wrong Iron Man looked his fucking best and baller pretty much in the first movie and by the time yeah it's the best a lot of people say like oh he just looks the worst the more you go on I still think he looks the worst in Age of Ultron I really don't like the way he looks in the second half of that film but yeah up until Avengers like the first Avengers movie suit looks amazing gorgeous I would go as far as saying I don't know what happened still one of my top favorites I think my favorite Marvel movies are still Infinity War Homecoming and the first Iron Man film sorry what was that for you yeah I love that first movie man solid they really captured the vibe of just being on his level like following him through his journey and just when he gets to this point you just like fuck he's built himself all the way up to here and he just annihilates them and they work their way up to this because this is like an hour into the movie that this scene it might even be a little bit more than an hour into the movie that this scene happens and what's really cool is that even though they follow up this scene of him absolutely annihilating these guys they then have the dog fight when he's kind of like out of his element because in the dog fight he's like really struggling yeah yeah hello oh hey man awesome oh shit hold on let me close the stream sorry hey what up we're watching a new video on the YouTubes I know I got a cool little message on Twitter I was like what the fuck I hope it was friendly we talk about Marvel every once in a while here and there and I find it interesting that we are a section of the internet that have I guess a particular point of view and it's funny when we end up agreeing with people it's often for very different reasons and I suppose since you're here may as well ask you a couple questions if you're interested out there your perspective on the old MCU we basically theorize that it's all just gone down the tubes because of really really poor writing practices I don't know if you know but like Black Widow was said to have been written in 13 days Doctor Strange was originally supposed to be written in 3 weeks then it was 2 weeks then it got thrown out and it was written as it was filmed the new Doctor Strange as far as I know yeah a lot of it is built they put the tracks down as the trains running now that doesn't mean you can't have a fucking awesome film as a result it's possible I think the example people go with is Mission Impossible Fallout and it's not even to be fair to Fallout like well the strategy with those is that the action scenes are crafted and then the script is crafted after right that's kind of how it goes so they have to it's still a challenge but I just think that there is no respect for the script writing process anymore and we're starting to see everything collapsing on itself now with the more stresses of time I think Covid didn't help either because the first production line for Multiverse Matters got cancelled because of that so they just restart that's what we think the problem is but I think you're highlighting a lot of things in your video that I consider superfluous almost like are they building up to a grander storyline and does that make it a worse phase as a result like possibly but I don't think it comes close to just the fact that the individual components are really badly put together yeah I know this kind of comes across as very like I guess kind of cowardly but if I were to go back in time there is a lot about that video I would definitely rephrase I think the whole thing about the phase being planned sorry a lot of shit about I talked about involving like the phases plan I'm not really sure I stand by I think it's more just like the execution of it I have a problem with I didn't think I highlighted many of the key aspects that I should have I don't think it's cowardly I think it's maybe you've changed your mind or maybe with more clarity understand what the like that you had the feeling about you know the problems and then it's over time you've managed to hone in more somewhat the problem because I mean I would say that I think it's execution yeah like that's what I think the problem is I think that I don't people being talking about superhero fatigue and stuff like that and I don't think it would exist if everything that had come out was great I think that everybody would be like really keen on more superhero stories like the investment doesn't go away as long as it's good mm-hmm yeah I think there are rare exceptions where like scripts are written on the fly like during shooting and it comes out good like Die Hard is an example of that the first one where Steven D'Souza I think his name is the screenwriter he's he was writing pages and then they would shoot it the next day while he was like writing the next chunk of the script and it turns turned out to be one of the greatest action movies ever right and maybe there was something too that the that way of doing things that injected a certain energy into that script that made it work I don't know but like for that films production it's like Silver Joel Silver of Silver Productions they got that tower and it's like we know we're gonna make a movie with this tower and we know we're gonna rig the roof with explosives and we're gonna blow it up and it's like Steven make us write a story around these facts right and that's what he did and it turned out good but I would say like as a rule of thumb get the script done first make sure it's up to stuff and then shoot it if you can do that you know that's interesting that you bring it up because something we've talked about is how a lot of Marvel films will pre-visualize action scenes well before a script exists and so like the job of the writer is to basically justify these action scenes like Black Widow before they had a script they knew that she would be like fighting while parachuting like falling from somewhere high and then what's the consequence oh we put the red room in the sky for some reason we're just fucking absurd hey it's hidden okay cause it keeps moving that's how it's hidden no one ever noticed Ultron and no one noticed I don't know that we've I don't know that we've gotten it from the video yet if you what would you say it's typo right I'm not misspeaking what do you are think of like the strongest and the weakest Facebook projects I think the strongest so far has probably been no way home and that's correct choice as for as for weaker oh boy um I don't know I can't really there's not really anything that pops into my head is like oh that was exceptionally bad there's stuff I would put that on Eternals personally go sorry go ahead yeah I don't know Eternals is just weird I really I really didn't like Moon Knight I didn't really like fucking the witness soldier at all and fucking what's even come out I don't know I didn't really like Ghost of Strange that much it's it's a war isn't it I think myself rags metal I'm assuming all of us for MOM is the worst in Phase 4 Multiverse of madness followed in close second by Loki and then third is Thor Love and Thunder I think it probably is I forgot about that I forgot about the most recent one yeah absolutely and those three together absolute catastrophe it sucks that it's gotten this hideously bad and what was interesting about Thor Love and Thunder especially is that it seemed like the whole internet agreed on that one it was like whoa what a stinker that was awful and it's um every reason for people to be in favor of it because people love Taika Waititi people enjoy good comedy it was all tongue in cheek had plenty of fun things in it but like man the jokes were so badly put together and the story was absolute nonsense you even had Christian Bale trying he tried his ass off dude he was uh that's the case with a lot of the actors though it's really not the force of the actors they've got great talent and they've got great talent on the production standpoint with like set design and props and things like that the visual effects people if they had more time it could really show off like you know what like I don't mean we've seen their work right with Thanos and Rocket like everybody's working it's the writing like it's just I don't know what it is like well I do a shit but like I don't know what happened I don't know what what wrong well yeah because uh I guess one of the other questions going to have for you as well is um would the information recently about DC have switched your mind on exactly who's sort of winning in the overall oh yeah that's that's a part in the video that is aged exceptionally poorly and also I think I didn't phrase right um when I said like part of the reason DC is winning right now like obviously it's fucking not even at the time like it's it was a clusterfuck it was a mess I just meant like I really like the suicide squad I really like peacemaker I really like the Batman and I love I thought maybe you were referring to um the critical claim aspect because like if you go from 2019 onward we get Joker the Batman I'll even give you a peacemaker and uh the suicide squad versus what does Marvel have in terms of what we would genuinely consider to be well written stuff or even partially well written it's like no way home is it um and so it's like yeah so in that sense I suppose DC is winning but yeah overall I was just like I mean DC unfortunately the Batman um it didn't make anywhere near as much money they probably wanted it to compared to like like no way home fucking clue the box office beat it not just strain like more money than Batman uh the suicide squad didn't it flop unfortunately yeah I did so like yeah uh you know Marvel is like laughing all the way to the bank I suppose while DC is just like fuck what are we supposed to do like what is happening that's that's why we would say it our coverage like we kind of feel bad for DC because they're just it's a circus for them right now yeah I just think you've been marketing it horribly and like the thing I commended them for which is like they really encourage or seem to encourage a lot of creative expression with individual projects and now they fucking they don't want to do that anymore yeah but no they're not interested in that though I guess um it looks like the Batman will persist because that was specifically cited as one of the films that the CEO likes and wants more of yeah so that would be nice if that can sort of continue to exist in its own little corner well and if the second one is anywhere near as good as the first one it should be able to get a stained legacy in like a good way like it should be the mainstay then and DC will have a bit more maybe respect and stability also greatly benefits that they don't have any uh I don't know world ending scenarios at the moment at DC at the moment yeah at the moment I say that Mr. Freeze what my Adam's gonna be about Mr. Freeze is gonna freeze the whole world I still I've seen that trailer like a million times every time I went to the cinema for one of the movies it's like I still don't know what the fuck this movie is gonna be about really black Adam is so generic looking yeah what no no what's so interesting about him is that you know like how heroes will not kill people but they do even though as we have we have footage on on stream right now the first action scene it is too touching a dude so hard that he goes flying into a wall this is quite a good screenshot for that conversation yeah yeah I'm different than someone like I'm not your dad's iron man I'm not your black Adam the black Adam DC universe what is he killed so many people guys you wouldn't believe it um any any additional thoughts on the whole Martin Scorsese thing I'm curious what uh is anything else on that because we've come across it several times we believe the Chad fucking response to it all is come on Marty it is cinema it's just bad and that's it um I don't remember how I phrase this specifically but um I don't agree with that like obviously it is like of merit and it is like it's most of what I watch like I nowadays like I completely just gorge myself on popcorn shit um wait do you see maybe the I don't know it felt a bit weird to have like a whole video talking about how bad that is to be like that's what I'm doing well it's like I didn't the point I guess whether or not I expressed it right um I don't know I definitely didn't um the point I was getting at more there the thing I bring them up for is just kind of the theme park act aspect of it like I felt that a lot with um watching shit like multiverse of madness where it's like a lot of the time I feel like most people are like ah I'm going to go see this one because blank shows up like I think if you were to go back a few years back I'd completely disagree with the theme park thing but now I'm starting to be like ha that's kind of like what a lot of marvel is selling itself on like I even remember when Moon Knight was coming out like every week somebody was being like oh my god the Hulk's going to be in the next episode guys no I remember I remember Shang-Chi people were like I can't wait to see what's going on in the next episode I remember that being a thing I was like are you fucking kidding me like who cares he's just going to show up and scream the big thing with she-hulk is daredevil that's like a huge selling point for that show that's what a lot of people's investment in watching it comes from well I think it's just yeah I love the controversy for that is like that's getting overshadowed by the controversy for shit the CGI looks like people are much more excited about what they're going to do with that character I think in terms of the Martin Scorsese thing I think all you did was what a lot of people did which is where you try to make better a quote that just is pretty like silly I found it fascinating that you felt the need to say like Guardians 2 shouldn't count along this and it really felt to me that you had found meaning in Guardians 2 where I believe and I just I'm going to say like I think it's fair for people to find meaning in something like the room people enjoy it out through the characters and they can just be like this is this is what I got from it this is boa if that's all that we require to then elevate something from theme park ride like shallow and stuff too meaningful I think it's easy to do with every every installment for the MCU well that was like a part where I was I wasn't agreeing with Martin there I'm Martin I wasn't agreeing with Scorsese there I think that was more so me just bringing up that I think the whole like superhero movies or not cinema like I how I think that's a little bit bullshit yeah well because you do that yeah you do said that you disagree with him it's just that um it was a real thing it was that to that well what I was highlight was just like it shouldn't be that you go like Guardians 2 as an example of how it breaks this sort of they just be like all of them are they all of them are honestly like if you I don't I like I famously hate Iron Man 3 but there's plenty I could say for what Iron Man 3 does for like character work and stuff but if we fast forward to phase four I could do it for Doctor Strange I think you said like part of what you didn't like about Multiverse of Madness was there was no there was no arc for Doctor Strange was that right I think it was there he had a dull arc yeah well because like the first thing that we all I say we all I think me and Franey talked about this when we first seen it we were baffled by the fact that they ran about three to four arcs for him at once in that movie it was all these components that were running they had um whether or not it's like right for him to take one life in exchange for everybody's it's the does being a superhero make him a happy person it's the having the control to make the biggest decisions in the world holding the knife is like a part of his personality to the point where it ruins his own reputation relationships with people and how is he going to reconcile that like they were running all of these things at once but none of them had any kind of satisfying coherency or answer and some of the characters like Christine were just dragged into it and forced to sort of comport to it despite the fact that she has her own life um she never talks as though she has her own life she only talks in regard to him uh so like what I'm suggesting is that I was actually quite interested in all of the crap they were doing to try and come across as an actual story this is this is why I'm still kind of interested in the MCU in some ways is um I find the incompetence of this storytelling fascinating sometimes yeah absolutely it's yeah it's like a like watching a train wreck so like give you an example one of the biggest like fucking mind blow this is why we consider what most of this man is probably the worst like there's about a bazillion arguments but when they establish that uh by being in the wrong universe you gradually create the chance for an incursion like it's an inevitability and you need to get out of the universe I can't believe they established that and then no character tells that to wonder whose whole goal is to go to a different universe and be with their children all you need to tell her is oh mechanically you'll destroy the universe if you do that so uh don't but like this thing when the when they wrote these things they just they're doing everything scene by scene in the moment they're not they don't care about how any of it matches anything else and um it's just destroying everything you know whether or not they're building to the multiverse or Kang or whatever else hmm that's our take we're much more positive about it as you can see I think there's plenty of action movies not just superhero movies that are cheap unsubstantive thrills which I think is the definition that Scorsese is applying to theme parks when he uses that term but to apply that to the entire subgenre is just lazy like well the thinking about it I think capital opinions was in chat earlier saying like part of this you have to keep in mind is that he's like he admitted to like not having watched basically any of them as well right yeah hmm he's like yeah he's probably not gonna have a reason to think they're better than a sort of cynical view if he's not even checking them out um but yeah uh well was there anything you wanted to ask us or um sorry I'm a little flustered as you could probably tell no bro I guess just like because I've come in extremely halfway um what was like the general thought about so far you've got close to impeccable editing um I'm very impressed we've watched about a bazillion videos on eFap in our time and you've got some of the best editing we've seen though I will say in terms of the technical aspects yeah it's I would use the word erratic in terms of there are some sequences in this that I'm almost it's the equivalent of eating too much cake where I'm just like I think it's massively over edited hmm I think it would be um lots of noises that are too loud constant transition if you dial it back just a little bit it uh because I think that occasionally it can kind of like off you skate the points that you're making like it just becomes a little bit difficult to focus in on exactly what you're saying so I think as if you dial it back like the clarity will increase like substantially because you already you already have like a clear level of competency can I make a guess I've I've spotted Dr. skipper's talking in chat are you part of the commentary community um I am very much not but I am a friend of his yeah well because I was just gonna say you're editing now I'm thinking about it reminds me of a lot of the way commentary community people edit their videos um I used to talk to a lot of people in that community but I really do not fuck with it I don't want any oh yeah no worries because it's a you know any community on youtube is fucking cursed whole at this point I was just gonna say that that could explain where you may have learned it because it does feel a little bit unique competitively because video assayists they tend to have a different you guys know what I'm talking about when I say this right like there's a commonality between like brown table high top and a bunch of the others yeah they're not they're not quite like this they're not quite like this this is a different beast but still of a level that I think is much better than a lot of people we cover yeah well I used to make videos before like I was typo I had like another thing and it really it didn't go anywhere and I tried to like fix a lot of the mistakes and the reason for the editing is for two reasons one like it helps me avoid copyright if like the music is constantly changing and the clips are constantly changing doesn't really get picked up for claims and I think it's more fun to do and also I think it helps watch time like me personally I'm always more engaged if the frame is moving and changing and it's like there's it's some kind of it's dynamic then it's kind of static I my brain starts to sizzle a little bit if I watch um like video assays that kind of like stay on one thing or use the same music too much so I kind of wanted to avoid that fair enough that's a good point yeah so we well so the overall thing is that we we agree with your conclusion we just disagree with a lot of the ways you come to figure it out ie what you've stated are like the bigger problems that the mcs fourth phase is facing I think I covered it when you first came in but just like broadly speaking like oh they don't even have an overall plan that's clearly like hampering them we believe pretty much that if all of the films were really well-executed individually but contradicted each other I think it would still be fine people would would be fine with it that's kind of weird that I don't know that this thing turned up there but it's not in this though blah blah blah because that was kind of what phase two was to the public I would say the movies on their own people really loved them but when you actually look at their will building it doesn't match very well I think something that looking back I think I kind of went off course with my original intent because something I really wanted to drive home and I'm not entirely sure I did very well was that I don't really want like the big interconnected university anymore I don't really care about it I'd much rather prefer smaller individual things but my main issue with phase four is that it's trying to have its cake needed to like it's I've gotten so many comments on my video about like oh it's another phase one it's trying to set up new things but it's constant it's constantly putting in like setups for future things there's shit tons of people all over the place everywhere in this it's not I wouldn't compare to phase one at all I wouldn't because you look at like an Iron Man one like that's very centralized of its main character and then like it's telling their story and then you look at like a Shang Shi or something and it's going all over the place there's a bunch of different other MCU characters in there that I feel kind of hampers the story they're trying to tell I think it even makes the cinematic universe less cool that's another thing I kind of like about DSC no sorry someone needs to take charge someone needs to take charge I was just going to say I wonder if something that I think I said before while we were watching the video is I think that phase four is the worst of both worlds in that it everybody wants to do whatever they want with their story with no regard for the broader universe that it connects into so you've got something that's incredibly incoherent yet at the same time none of the films are that distinct in terms of the types of stories they want to tell or or editing yeah I think Moon Knight could have been such a fucking cool show if they are just like if they disregarded the Marvel formula and the Marvel presentation but they didn't were you hyped for Moon Knight before it came out not really because there's a different story for it I haven't really been hyped for anything other than No Way Home I guess with Moon Knight it was more morbid curiosity because I was hearing during the build up like odd's going to be gritty we're bringing back the gritty side of the MCU it's going to be street level and then it's just the complete opposite you lied to me I still like more of the source material stuff and I was like oh my god this is so cool and then I watched Mr. Robot and I was like this is kind of what I wanted from the Moon Knight show right well I mean yeah we're going to compare Moon Knight to Mr. Robot it's not a particularly favorable comparison that's for sure they did the same thing with Moon Knight that happened with WandaVision and it happens with a lot of this shit by the time you hit the last episode when you see the two kaiju's fighting you're like what the hell was this show I thought this was I thought Moon Knight was going to be a street level detective mixed with like this guy who has to deal with these alternate personalities and the history of his his own history is like shrouded in mystery and he doesn't understand it but instead yeah we got to have a big end of the world climactic like showdown with yeah the big kaiju fight between the crocodile and the skeleton bird yeah what made me interested in Moon Knight was Oscar Isaac because I think that guy's terrific whatever he is and he was terrific in that show yeah but I watched episode one and I went okay I thought he did a great job but I just I didn't even think it was bad but I wasn't enticed to watch the rest of it we were fine with it yeah you were interested to see more I wanted to see more after the first episode I had a cautious optimism and then it very quickly evaporated 2 was really bad 3 was really bad 4 was really bad 5 was like oh 5 was weird it was weird I didn't really like 5 that much that hence my choice of oh because there's stuff in there that's like okay you're trying to draw it because like I was actually really surprised that Marvel displayed like a a child getting abused to the point of them developing a second personality it's just like that's a little bit ballsy of you okay cool but I still don't think that especially that last episode just looking back on Moon Knight as a whole it's kind of funny because I'm trying to almost try and give it a bit of credit to it when I realize Moon Knight is seemingly with Thor 11 Thunder and MOM crashing people's view of the phase 4 we would have thought Loki should have done it but loads of people really loved Loki so you never know but at the same time it seems like every single thing comes and goes like Miss Marvel was a thing and it just came and went nobody talks about it Thor 11 Thunder you forgot that that was the most recent film everything comes and goes so quickly the half life is like you all on these projects nobody cares about Thor guy anymore nobody cares about Eternals that was a funny part of I can't remember when it was in this video but you were summarizing you summarized phase 1 you did all the projects phase 2 all the projects phase 3 you skipped out Captain Marvel and was it Captain Marvel and Ant-Man? yeah like we figured you just must have forgotten those two like we did honestly yeah yeah the awkward middle children if I may provide some input on the video you made Typo I mean if you're looking for it yeah no I watched it and you made a great argument about like keeping all the clips brief to avoid any copyright issues but I would suggest if you're going to maintain that brevity for each clip maybe dial back on the transitions a bit I did find that it was overwhelming like the speed of the information being conveyed as well as the amount of sounds because like you put so much work into the sound effects and like your music selection but I think you just got to mix the sounds and the music a little lower or is it necessarily better sounded like he was making it for a more erratic audience this is the kind of thing that can be shared on tiktok I assume is I don't know if we're old or not I always have to wonder yeah we are old same point in the previous century in regard to the arguments you were making I was largely inclined to agree with you I mean I think the only point you made that I really disagreed with was a point you made about going to see Doctor Strange just for the cameos in Multiverse of Madness like where I think we kind of agreed on this podcast that we went because we really like that character and Benedict's portrayal of him and you know it's like oh maybe there's going to be a good story here but I largely agree with your point about Marvel being too focused on the interconnectedness of everything and like the broad plan as opposed to ensuring the quality of the films on an individual level but the information was coming at me so fast and the visuals were so quick and the sound effects were quite loud I found myself rewinding a lot and turning on closed captions to like absorb the information better so really I mean it's an easy fix I think to make it more to have it better absorbed by people I would just say cut back on the transitions or just keep it to simply cuts just simple cuts without even putting anything on them I think you can do the same thing where you have like the rapid cuts between different shots and then you have the sound effects that punctuate that and I think that even if you did it with cuts it would achieve the same thing but like the moving of the frame is like a little extra bit of you know visual information it sounds nitpicky but because like the style in general like you're quite good at editing I think I guess that's the hope better than me I don't even know how to do some of those things okay so that's just my thoughts on it yeah for sure I think a lot of my because I know I'm very aware like was it like every two minutes there's like a little transition I do most of the time it's just because I think it would be fun to put it in but like there was one I remember specifically it was like when Thanos naps his finger that was because I had like an audio f**k up I think and I wanted to distract him I think that's probably what I love I like that it's honestly because I think one where I'm like it's like the green goblin like smashing the helmet with a rock and then he does that weird transition Iron Man 3 and that was because I realized that the audio didn't flow very well if you just go from that to like cut immediate cut I think a lot of it's probably a scripting issue I could definitely there's a lot I could definitely fix with my scripting or even just my voice recording to circumvent a lot of that when we were talking about your editing I brought up zero punctuation as an example of something that moves very fast and it's like throwing a lot of information at you at once but what what I think works about that is that the visuals are very simplistic like they're still images there's not a lot to like soak in in regards to visuals and the cuts are very simple no transitions just cuts it's almost like stick figures in very kind of very easy to absorb to what he's saying in a very very direct way yeah so you can almost like you listen to what he's saying and even though it's very fast you you can focus on them and just kind of stare at the visuals which are more peripheral you know it's easier to soak in like if that had complicated animated visuals and stuff that would be a lot harder to process hmm given the volume of arguments like being made and the speed at which like I don't even know if he like speeds up his voice in post production maybe he does I think he does maybe yeah I'm not sure we are well we have a couple what's your you have to leave anytime soon Mr. Typo because you we've heard which over to the other video that regards the same topic but as much shorter and you could maybe join us to see if we agree or disagree with the video or us who knows um I think I got about like an hour left until I gotta well that should be enough I think yeah yeah sweet in that case as you can see in our little that's the link I assume you've used watch together before but I can't be sure never in my fucking life wow see this new generation don't even know about watch together eyes can you believe that is we're living in another world oh my god that's my chicken my little south part chicken um so yeah the way it works is just it's like a youtube video but all of us are in this and all of us can pause and play whenever we want but your volume is yours and well that's about it I think so much else for you to use use the um use the arrow at the bottom left to start and stop if you click on the screen it just oh yeah yeah I don't know why they click on the screen will pause it for like two seconds and then it automatically plays again that seems to be what it does every time I've ever used it and I don't know what the point of that is yeah not sure now the second video we were planning on looking at and I suppose are now it's from nerd now if you remember we have covered him once before and I believe the video we covered from him before was about how the problem oh fuck was it the problem with superhero fights is that they're always in the air or something like that you remember this I can't help you I can't remember oh it was it was a bizarre argument so remember the main references was Shazam Steel and um I think even Chronicle someone's gonna have to help me out in chat with what the argument was but it was very strange like the big problem right now is that they fight in the air or something oh that one so if they're shooting lasers at each other but their feet are planted on the ground it's fine yeah it's very exciting to watch yeah now that you say that it's all coming back to me yeah he has a yeah and Sandberg agreed with the video it was fucking weird I assume it was just because it was like a friendly thing all of that was on my channel we did that oh we definitely covered it on eFap because I remember I think I told you explicitly like this needs to be seen on eFap the fact that chat know about it as well um I think you were the one that made me aware of it okay you you you send these takes to me sometimes anyway he's got this video and it's called the unfortunate problems with Marvel's phase four so let's go for a different perspective on what it is that is tanking the fourth phase in Marvel's cinematic universe the idea was to bring together a group of remarkable people see if they could become something more the MCU has taken superheroes from being the laughing stock of Hollywood to the most financially successful genre and were they ever I don't think that's fair at all how did Sam Raimi how the fuck is this the MCU that did this by the way Batman and Robin clips yeah it's a everyone loved it and everyone to this day loves it and thinks it's a masterpiece okay I'll hear nothing different on a serious note when did when did Blade come out again 1998 I think when did Batman and Robin come out 1997 okay well so Blade was a little campy I'll give it to you but that's that's internet toward and then you get the Spider-Man movies and the X-Men movies which yeah like you can't deny the saying that you know the MCU has made it not a laughing stock and financially like safe thing to do is just like I don't know man three Spider-Man movies do you see how many X-Men movies they made I don't know feel like we're skipping over some of the components yeah but that's fine revisionist history global media and yet now with super producer Kevin Feige at full command of everything Marvel you'd expect things to be chugging along swimmingly and they are on one level however a closer look reveals a significant problem with Marvel's phase four the MCU started in 2008 with the release of the Robert Downey junior vehicle iron that that that mouse clicky noise yeah it's always every time I hear it I'm like man and just what a fucking killer person don't you that's how much is kind of do I kind of hear that someone yeah I know I have a murderous rampage inside of me that I'm hiding back with this smile and friendliness but wait how do I enable the bell how do I subscribe all the mouse okay right oh I use them out and then do I do I do anything when I oh okay oh I press this button here I think it's like it moves I do wonder sometimes where they get it from is it just like a YouTube video the screen except for that part and you download it and you just crop it out and then you I put it in one of my in one of my highlights like on my stream highlights just it's just it's just a transparent thing you can download it's like millions of them online so they come with the clicky it out they come with a clicky clack would you have to make it yourself no you have to make the sounds it's just Giffenheimers out there you can get you rescued the gif with the Giffenheimers Giffenheimers Iron Man the first film in an interconnected web of feature films spanning multiple studios characters and franchises in case you're unfamiliar the eras of the Marvel Cinematic Universe are divided up into what mega producer Feige and company have he remembered Captain Marvel termed phases phase one is six films Iron Man 2 Avengers phase two is six films Iron Man 3 to Ant-Man and phase 3 acting as the climactic third act of the initial movement of the universe is 11 films Captain America Civil War to Spider-Man Far From Home these 23 films act as a complete story more or less they have a beginning a middle and an end millions of people from across the globe have yeah a lot of this is just yeah I mean well yeah I can't disagree with any of this this is all establishing the rules the ground yeah it's a summary I suppose you'll be making arguments feel he is accurate so far let us I'm very curious where he's going to go real to the exploits and triumphs and failures of the iconic Marvel Super Heroes all of these films lead up to the crescendo of the twin capstones to the story Avengers Infinity War and Avengers Endgame these two films directed by the Russo brothers hold in close to 5.5 billion dollars wait wait wait I think I have 200 dollars which is fucking hot food in the universe they are an achievement in the craft and business of filmmaking that has never been paralleled they were a definitive into the story that was jump-started all those years ago in 2008 and then you gotta move on Marvel and the rest of the world had to move on Marvel's hotly anticipated Phase 4 promised new characters new twists and turns in the ongoing plot and even more exciting yeah I mean because I think we talked about it briefly when covering the first video it's just like there are places to go you know that's hope I think we talked about this all the way back when we were like yeah you know this could be good still and now with a new element thrown into the mix Kevin Feige would be overseeing TV projects for Phase 4 meaning not only would Phase 4 include numerous films you know this like disembodied Huber did this void that displays especially when it's him you know it's like this guy wandered in to this title screen he's in the logo of this he's in the logo cinematic logo verse please let me out of here no you have to do more it does seem that he's spread quite