Okay, I met Israel at Agile 2008 and since that time I've been corresponding with him a bit in an email And I've also been reading his blog the Agile executive which Some of his reflection and some of his experience really changed my perspective about how some of this stuff can be done At a level and a perspective that I wasn't really thinking of before so turn the time Thanks for the kind words Andrew and thanks for all your help in giving me feedback on this presentation I'm helping me with some of the graphics and many thanks to Kay and to Nate and Chris and Any others of the organizers who I might not know in person But who have pulled together this refreshing conference. I Actually, I'm reminded of the years ago when I was a student in the Israel Institute of Technology We had the quips then that in the second year you understand what you were taught in the first year in the second year you get the second year and We have actually never figured out when do you understand the third year When I was working on preparing this presentation. I had a feeling of the metaphorical third year Being understood by me There you think so that folks in the agile community and myself have been doing over the past five six years started to make sense to me and You can think about this presentation actually as sharing my aha minutes with you The aha minutes are about the four principles of the manifesto About four cultures in whose context you can apply the principles and Finally about a tool that I highly recommend to the agile champion the mirror Looking at the principles. We all have been subject recently and for quite some time now To various suggestions to add a principle to the manifesto or to tweak some of the principles of the manifesto, etc And while I have great respect for those suggestions, I do not think that those capture the heart of the matter The heart of the matter to me is that the agile principles are disruptive Not in a negative manner, but rather in a positive manner pretty much along the line of Christian sense disruptive technologies And what happens because they are disruptive by nature? we run into intrinsic obstacles and The secret source is really not about the principles themselves, but the way we apply them either to bypass the obstacles or if necessary I Have actually jotted some of the experiences that I encountered along the years Some companies had crossed the cousin Years ago and now hide behind their bureaucracy and their processes in order not to recross the cousin Had business designs were for one dollar in license revenue You were expected to produce Something like three or four dollars in professional services and customer support revenues some others Were unable to bridge ever between contract language and agile principles and as a result Whatever was accomplished in R&D circles could not manifest itself in terms of the business realities And I'm sure that people here can add a very long set of painful if not traumatic episodes to this list More alarm the usual is When I read the Ken Schwaber interview in agile collab a few a few months ago and in this interview Schwaber speaks about 75 percent of the scrum initiatives Not living up to their potential The things that was alarming to me was we don't normally Embark upon things where the odds are three to four against us. This is sort of does not make sense and Coming from such an authority as Schwaber the things that are really intrigued me Was the feeling of what's wrong? Namely personally the agile principles make a ton of sense for me I know quite a few people whom I consider to be highly competent To whom the principles make a lot of sense So what is a discrepancy? How come that very very sensible and may I say timeless principles? lead to such a pessimistic estimate I Was tuned at about the same time to look at our Schneider's classic are about re-engineering your organization and One of the things that Schneider's say there was to characterize culture Characterized culture as how we like to do things in order to succeed here And in thinking about the principles of manifesto, I Concluded that I could actually describe them as how we do software in order to succeed So what happens when we roll in the first agile license in it to our organization? We introduce duality in the culture and in various cases We might actually introduce Conflict between cultures The way agile says we would be wise to go about it May be counter to the way our corporate culture says We want to go about it and with this thing I Started looking very I don't work and Actually, I would characterize this presentation in many ways as Being application of his theories into the realm of agile now Why To the agile champion Take a look, please this taxonomy of It is taken from Schneider He identifies for core cultures the control the collaboration cultivation And the cultures Trans In which they look at data or pay attention to data and according to the way in which they process it so some cultures Look at data in the future Can I be heard? How is it now? Should I try to raise my voice or okay? Thanks So some cultures Are looking at future data They are all about what could be accomplished Next year or the year after or maybe even five years into the future some other cultures Pay attention to what is happening today Namely the future may be very very interesting, but don't it what is happening today in Georgia or any other place The other aspect is how cultures Make decisions So some cultures are very personal you have a charismatic leader who really Care is a day Some others are very cut and dry Here is a data the data is the only things that matters, etc Now if you take a look at those four cultures, I Have listed here For each culture what characterizes it what it is about an Organization which typically uses this culture and a personification of this culture So if you take the control culture for example, obviously it's about power Militaries from time immemorial tended to be control culture And if you think about personification Surgeon is a good example When he or she operates on me, I would very much like The person the surgeon to be very very methodical very much in control of the situation very much driven by Parameters like by blood pressure or whatever they monitor If you go left and look at the collaboration culture You see the nurse there as characterizing a fairly similar function in the collaboration culture The difference While both the surgeon and the nurse hear a tone about the patient The nurse tends to develop a much more collaborative relationship with the patient And there is any number of studies in hospitals That the recovery of the patient Depends to a great to a great extent on the collaboration with the nurse Now this business of personification is actually deeper than might catch the eye if you remember Schneider's definition that Culture is a way we do things here in order to succeed you could actually think about character as The way I do things in order to succeed the parallel is very very obvious and If you accept this premise, it's actually gives us a very interesting lens to look at agile rollouts And I would call this lens the psychoanalytical lens What do I mean by that? When we start an agile rollout is really like putting a plant in a soil and The business of the feet between the two is of crucial importance now Going back to the four cultures that we talked about As an agile champion you can find yourself in any one of the four cultures This is a given you are operating within a certain environment Assume for a minute that you are within a control culture. You could definitely stay within this culture and Rather than trying to change into things which are very difficult to accomplish Tried to build on the strengths of this culture Now various people have told me that actually control culture is very inappropriate for agile and I beg to differ a Gile culture. I'm sorry control culture tends to be very methodical Tends to be very rigorous tend to be very very good at putting processes in place So if you are the agile champion within the control culture You can build on those aspects and others as things that would help the assimilation of agile big time and Remember the duck where is Kay? Staying within your culture You are staying with a very good duck as distinct from embarking on some adventures Now the other thing that you could do You could try to move into a session adjacent cultures and in this example It is exemplified by moving from control to collaboration or moving from control to competence and You actually need to think about it in terms of character change You don't change your character by a three-day blitzkopf someplace If you are serious at least in terms of Freudian theory about changing your character it takes years and It's a process in which you invest a lot. The returns are not in the next week or the next month or even the next year And the opinion of various experts is that the same haunts for the enterprise You might find yourself spending a decade trying to change the culture To fit into what you would like it to be for the agile purposes so this is a very lengthy and High investment approach to the rollout of a child Now the third one is you could move all the way to the opposite culture For example, you could move try to move from control to cultivation And I would contend that this is a equivalent of a transplant of a personality Even if you are the founder of the company This is something that would probably be extremely difficult and quite unlikely to fail now if you take a look this framework of for core cultures They actually shed light on the estimate which from Schwab air about 75 percent of failure What happens if you go random on The way you apply a job without any attention to cultural aspects You have got three routes out of four which are quite difficult You have got two adjacent cultures and one opposite cultures and in those again if you accept a psychoanalytical view Those are Difficult and lengthy and I very much doubt that anyone here has ten years to make an agile role out successful As the cultural change suggests Now assume for a minute that you started agile and it's going very very well One team is doing it beautiful a second team is doing it beautiful And you are actually and rightly so feel quite good about it. You expect success to be get success I Would actually contend that you to the interplane between scale and culture Success does not necessarily be get success Jim high Smith is talking about two ways in which you could scale One way you could scale up you had 15 developers on your Floor doing agile then you had 20 then you had 30 etc And up to a point this is actually very very effective way of scaling because a You remain within your culture B, you are likely to stay with the semi-gile infrastructure that you have used in the first few projects So in terms of moving up It is extremely effective, but up to a point At a certain point in time you lose The ability to put more people in your floor or in your building or even in your country or you can't get the talent and at this point in time You find yourself scaling up And here all of a sudden particularly these days you are likely to face another culture The guys in Moscow or in Beijing or in San Paolo have their own a national culture And instead of two culture to think about namely your own culture as a corporation or organization and The culture of a child all of a sudden you need to be very very mindful About how things are bestowed and how things are done in San Paolo, Brazil or any other place that you might be doing a job So what happens the scale up at a certain point in time force forces you to go into scale out At which point in time You are likely to run into additional cultural considerations and quite complicated ones at times There is another strategy Which is quite effective up to a point and this is scale diagonally What I mean by scale diagonally You take the success that you had in R&D with a child and use it to drive success in other functions marketing sales finance, etc and People actually respond to it quite well at the beginning For the simple reason that people take notice that things are working in a very very different manner in R&D However, what happens is that you are trying to affect other downstream functions You are likely to hit other cultures The guys doing revenue recognition in your finance department Are quite likely to be of a very very different culture than the band of happy developers That are doing the code so what happens is You can make people take notice and be responsive to change But you need to be very mindful of how many cultures You cross when you go all the way from R&D in this example to revenue recognition. I Would actually contend That you can't really go much Beyond the joint agile infrastructure That you have and by joint agile infrastructure I mean one that each and every one of the constituencies marketing sales customer service, etc. Can use and This is for the following reason if you go back to Schneider's taxonomy of culture being characterized by the data that it pays attention and By the processes that it uses to make decisions If you have joined infrastructure You basically agree on the data There may be all kind of question about interpretations what it means what will be in the future, etc But in terms of one dimension of cross-cultural issues You have got common base of data In terms of process while joined infrastructure doesn't necessarily Imply that the processes would be agreed to It often time make suggestions as to what are the processes that would make sense to use Given that there is commonality of data So when you leave your rail head sort of speak and branch into other downstream functions and other cultures please be very mindful about How far your infrastructure can take you The examples that I would like to bring is from BNC in 2006 At this point in time we were doing agile for about two years and the results in R&D are Started being quite good We did however have a ton of problems in marketing and sales being able to capitalize on it And while we did not have anything like Schneider's taxonomy of cultures we intuitively felt that the differences between the business and R&D are gonna kill us and The joint infrastructure that we created Was actually completely manual We introduced a go-to-market process in which I and my colleagues on sales professional services Customer support, etc Would meet time and time and time again to understand what are the effects of agile on go-to-market This was very tedious and quite primitive However, you can imagine how much it could give us if we had a tool back then like agile portfolio management Which would be meaningful both to the strategic decision-making and to the operational aspects of marketing and sales Well, I mentioned the mirror at the very beginning and I do not mean it in the Grimm's brother sense This is not about snow white rather Use the mirror when you are thinking about doing agile To really understand your culture Take one good look take a second look if necessary take 100 looks and Get to understand the culture of your organization and My contention is as I mentioned with respect to the strengths of the control culture That whatever your culture is a Gile can succeed within it Now let me make one crucial differentiation here I Do not doubt for a minute that certain cultures are better fit for certain endeavors for example, if you want to wage war at least the classical answer is that the control culture is very effective So take the US military Probably I don't know for sure, but I guess that they are a control culture Within this control culture a lot of wonderful things can be done by agile methods in their various data centers And those data centers are the things that the drive where the bombs go and where the artillery fires and which tracks You know the tank steak So you have a control culture? Who is all geared to launch war? Then they're fitting in a very significant manner from agile within its IT infrastructure so endeavor May require specific culture However within this culture agile can be extremely effective in Supporting what you are trying to do there is another thing That I would suggest in this context and this is if you please a behavioral aspect And I do not pretend by any stretch of imagination to be an expert on behaviorism that I am not However, I would suggest to you my experience with Twitter as an example of how behavior changes I Started Twitter magic just because it was fun and it seemed to be interesting and was experimenting a little bit with it and Little by little as my network grew. I have found that it completely changed my behavior the way I go about data collection and to some extent at least the way I go on data analysis days is First of foremost based on Twitter It gives me the richness of information and the diversity of information That would have taken me a ton of time if I was scavenging the world wide web without my network So here is an example of a tool Which I took out of some curiosity. I never invested it more than adding another person I follow or You know or looking a little bit who is there who is not there? And what I found over time that my behavior has been completely transformed through this kind of tool My contention is that a good agile tool when it spans a few Constituencies can have the very same effect and that you can change behavior of various functions Without getting into big pushes about cultural changes So in summary What are my suggestions or what are my principles for the timeless principles of the manifesto? first one is to know your search We are all exposed to various discussions about the fine points of one agile method versus another Important those discussions are I would contend for somebody who is planning to start rolling agile They are of very little value Where you will run into obstacles are not in the fine points of scram versus Kanban But in the fine points of how your culture operates so after a Fairly a small amount of investment in understanding what agile is about Shift your attention into understanding your organization and understanding your culture Second You need to be true to yourself when you roll agile Don't try to assimilate the way our sales force did it or the way BMC did it or any one of a number of other companies Because there is no reason to believe that their culture is similar to the culture that you are dealing with and Trying to emulate them blindly would not get you what you are hoping to get Instead once you understood your culture To take the time and the effort to understand the weaknesses of the cultures the strengths of the culture and Develop your agile rollout strategy building on the strengths third When you want to change the way things are being done Tools or if you please serious games are the easiest way to change behavior So if you can find the tool which for example would tie together the issues which are important to Revenue recognition together with the issues that are important to the guys who are doing a sprint You are making tremendous progress You would be able to get them together or at least closer to one another In much easier way than being explicit about trying to change culture Force and perhaps the most important here You have a mirror in looking into your organization, of course But you have another mirror which is a feedback that you get from other cultures The guys in revenue recognition might drive you nuts in terms of how they go about their business however They are doing you and your culture a great service in making you aware of your blind spots and Very possibly protecting you From excesses and vulnerability of the culture within which you operate So consider the cultural feedback from other cultures to be part of your mirror and Pay a lot of attention to it If you do so, I am very very confident. Then it's the next agile roots conference I would be sitting in the audience and people who are listening to me now Will be reporting about their successes with a guy Thank you very much. I doubt that everything was clear. So I would like to hear some questions Yes, please Since they can change Culture Whether agile tools are a culture neutral namely whether they can be used Equally well in any of the four cultures that we have described And I would say yes unless you have a pathological Situation in your corporate Namely if the excesses within a certain corporate culture are such that sensible things Not being heard then Tools might not be that helpful However, if you assume a reasonably healthy corporate culture, which is usually the case Then I would say yes If you take a rally tool or version one tool or any one of your favorite You don't find any strongly encoded cultural assumptions there you find Ways to collect data ways to share data and as those tools do more of a job portfolio management Ways to reach out to other constituencies Diana I'm interested in what you're saying about building on the strengths of a current culture and a number of folks me and Can't that get some other folks have been talking lately about Incorporating some of the principles and theories of appreciative inquiry Into into how we introduce that will into organizations and that seems to me to be a really natural fit with the idea of building on the strengths of the existing culture and So I was wondering if you have any Many other reflections on on techniques to build on the strengths that you've used Oh Diana's question was about whether appreciative inquiry The chi and Kent Beck and others have been discussing recently as a way to introduce a child But those are consistent and fall within the concepts that we have discussed here My answer or to be more precise my intuitive answer is I think they would be a wonderful fit. I Have not done enough or work in this area to be able to tell you or anyone else are Solitatively so that I would very much welcome the opportunity to work with you in order to Enrich the set of tools that we have so gut level reaction. I think this would be 101 percent consistent synergetic and helpful Yes, please Wrote this book was that he called it the re-engineering alternative because he was trying to into dope people using the wrong method Process wise for a given culture. He was seeing everybody using Re-engineering and saying, you know, that's not the answer to everything So I think it's a huge fit with appreciative inquiry This approach I would recommend as I thank you for bringing this work to this Environment because it can be very useful for people to understand their culture and to try to implement Agile in a way that's consistent with their culture instead of, you know, trying to afford their culture You know, there's a huge bias I think against neutral cultures in our world Understandably so but still not usefully so The goal that was made was that a Appreciative inquiry probably would be very synergetic is what we have discussed and second is that Schneider when he developed his framework in the 90s was Paying a lot of attention and due attention to the ways that you can't really go really nearly about the way you try to change your culture and That his concepts indeed seem to be quite relevant to what we do as agilists So thanks so much for the comment Jeff You use the term serious games. I mean the other person I've heard use the term a lot is Luke Holman. Can you say a little bit more about what you meant by serious games? If you take a look at Luke's way of we are talking about what's the name of his tool? It's Basically not really very very different if you please from playing chess or playing bridge or playing any one of another of a Some kinds of games that we all play from time to time just for fun And what happens is that the fun element in working for example on prioritizing on backlog is in large enough sample is Good enough to overcome the tedious nature of oh my gosh, I have got 77 stories or 77 requirements. How do I? How do I? Make the decisions. I would say that to me and this may be an idiosyncrasy Twitter is of the same nature of a game a serious game Obviously, I don't do Twitter for game I get a lot of fun of it, but I thought that this would be an effective channel to interact with people and While it might have been designed as a way to change my patterns the fact of the matter is the fun element Let me to invest sufficiently in it and invest is writing a tweet here a tweet there To the point that he has become a very serious tool to me So particularly in this era of web 2.0 and possibly getting into web 3.0 There are a lot of tools where the initial investment is pretty much zero Where it's very very enticing we can get into it extremely easily and once the network effects kick in That change on behavior could be immense so for example the use of various social network tools in The context of doing a child particularly distributed a child I think is an area of a great promise and many of the tools to me are in the realm of serious games In a child 2008 Andrew here. I don't remember with whom who had died. He has done it but as he was co-coding together with one of the stars that were there at the time and And Andrew came and told me afterwards it changes behavior as a developer, you know for the timing of the session So here is a tool which any developer if you're she chooses Could start to use and I think it's open source if I remember correctly There's two people don't have a cursor on the same document. There's a couple of the project That's to me is a very serious, you know very serious game Particularly when we are talking in the context of agile, which at least in part is about the fun in programming so The comment the quote you started off with from Ken Schwabers where he talked about 75% of the failing and the culture is changing from in this case to something that was not agile how we tell the difference between that and the changes that I introduced to scrum to adopt or adapt to the culture should I care I Think you should care because there is a line Beyond which you might unintentionally saw the baby together with the water So not being dogmatic is certainly something that I would highly recommend to everyone here And if I look at my own experience for example with BMC I Think that the fact that we were flexible about how we applied scum was a big part of our success Having said that at a certain point in time You might be taking too much of it by successive adaptation Basically when you look at scrum It's three roles three processes and three artifacts. That's simple So any one of the three that you might take out as part of adaptation out of the equation you have taken 11% So to speak out of scum So you need to be careful about it I would again suggest the mirror particularly if you are working with a seasoned consultant What is sensible to do in terms of adapting scum or any other method and What is not sensible to do you would get some very real feedback very fast with the next demo So I would definitely experiment in not only in doing the software but in doing the software method And I would pay very close attention to the feedback because this is the best way by which we You know, we know what is right and what is wrong as I think it was Alistair yesterday mentioned here You can look at Kanban as putting scrum on its ear So here is an example of quite a change However, there is a lot of feedback that in certain cases the change is working very very well So I would rest my automatic pilot and try to see is this change working is this change not working What am I doing wrong, etc? Any other questions? Thank you very much


Barbarians continue to threaten, but the city can take him off the time being. That's the edge of the map. Oh, another barbarian. Scott's gotta be up here somewhere.  Either there's some land I don't know about in here. Ooh, I did not know that I got a culture for killing barbarians with cities. That's interesting. He's gotta be, like, right in here. We're hidden up here somewhere. I'm gonna need a troop back here to deal with this. These barbarians are starting to be a problem because this worker's gonna have to thread a fine line of working on stuff. Eh, but I want to build a settler. I might, as much as I want to harass Scott, I might send this guy back around. We'll see. I don't have money to buy soon. Yeah, there'll only be 220 to build another one of these guys, and that's enough to hold off barbarians for a while. So I feel like, yeah, let my city make gold again instead of what it was doing before. It's now very important. What do I do here? It's a small game. Now I want a min-max. Now it's too early to go after these. I'm actually way ahead on culture than I would normally possibly be able to be. So in a small game like this, I actually kind of want to go for patronage to get all the city-states on my side and leverage the hell out of them. Commerce will not be that useful. I couldn't fill it out in time, unless this game goes way long somehow. Honor will be useful if I go after a war, so pretty much it's these three are the ones I'm going to go for. Patronage, honor, or tradition. I think I actually want to max out tradition first. There's no danger of a war anytime soon. Scott's too far away. So I'm not going to build a wanderer out of the way, so I can hold off on that. And while this is not that useful immediately, it'll allow me to fight off barbarians more readily and protect my guys here. More importantly, I can quickly get here from my culture buildings to keep this culture blitz going. And then I can immediately go here, or here, as I see fit. So I'm going to rush this tradition tree. Well, this day has come. Bumped into his borders here. He's right in there. Let's just hang out and harass. Oh, a spear man, nice. Should I? I think I can send this scout back around to be ready to protect my worker. Because look, it'll take him like nine turns to get all the way back across. Well, let's hang out here and see what Scott does. He'll see this. Well, I think he can see this guy now. We'll see how he reacts. The question is, do I antagonize Scott now? Thus throwing him into a death spiral? Or do I retreat these guys back around clearing up these barbarian encampments along the way and consolidate my base knowing that he won't be able to assault me for the foreseeable future? Let's look a little more at his territory. Oh, hey, all right. I don't think he has much else going on. Dare I risk it? I think he'll be too afraid to risk attacking me, and he may retreat and possibly be butter about it. How do I get this guy around? If he retreats into the city, that's fine. Because then I can come back around with him sufficiently antagonized. There's a tiny chance he has a military unit over here, but I doubt it. He won't be able to take me out in one turn. Let's do it. Let's see what he does. I'll offer him a peace treaty for 30 gold. This is going to be a straight-up advanced wars fight here. I'm not going to actually try to take him out or anything. I just want to antagonize him a little bit. I wish he'd sent a guy north. But if I keep these guys here, I could keep these guys here and thus basically prevent him from having a worker or a settler. But then my worker is going to be vulnerable until I build yet another military unit over here. And I wish I could just build a settler right away. But it's going to take so long for these guys to move all the way back over. If I send this guy all the way back across, look. Eight-ish, eight-nine turns. But then five turns to build that. Let's see. Can I show the queue? I then build a settler next. That's 12, 17 turns before I have a settler. I'll have an unprotected worker in the inner rim. But this guy can get all the way back over here in about nine turns. Conversely, this guy can get back over here in about eight turns. So I could just do a full retreat, have guys here, and expand. But I think instead I am going to keep at least this guy here because that'll prevent Scott from moving north. And I will then be able to settle in this relatively good area early, or this area. Let's see how it goes. All right, don't let anyone say that I don't do things that I'm asked to do just because. So rim and I guess other people want to make a video of the sieve game that rim and I are playing against each other. It's a two-player sieve game. This is our third one. The first one we played on a bus. I didn't know what it was doing. The second one, rim already posted videos of me ruining him with my giant army. So here's the third one. I guess rim isn't going to underestimate me this time, maybe? But I know how to play. But knowing how to play is not doing well for me this time. So I chose Babylon because I knew it was going to be extra tiny map. And I figured I could just turtle and science my way to win. And instead of having to do military nonsense, the map we chose was this weird one where there's like a lake in the middle. And it puts you right on the lake. So the map is actually, I didn't realize. So you can see there's the corner. I found a city state, by the way. 30 gold. Yeah. You can't go around the map. It's not it's a flat world. You can't go this way. And this is the bottom. And I assume the rim is over here or down down in here. Right? He's somewhere in this cloudy area. He's probably not in this cloudy area, right? This is turn 20. And I'm not doing too well. So I started the game of my warrior. And I explored, obviously, this whole area here. I found the city state. Buenos Aires, they're cultured. If I befriend them, they'll provide me gifts of culture, which I would like. But it's hard for me to befriend them before they have any quests. So just to wait on them. Here's a barbario. Here's a barbario. Here's a copper. I'd like to get that. There's a cattle. OK, I already have a cattle in my zone here. There's a stone. I'd like to get some of that. Here's some more copper. Get some sheep. I get some sheep and here's another barbario. So I found three huts in this area that I explored.  Because I got honor already. I've realized you should pretty much always get honor immediately, no matter what sieve you choose. Because you're going to be fighting barbarians. And look, adopting honor gives combat bonus for the barbarians. And you get notifications about new barbarians. And you get culture from every barbarian you kill.  You pretty much, with the barbarians that you just have to kill during the game, just because you have to. First of all, it'll be easier to do.  So now, at a critical juncture here, I have to choose my next thing. And am I going to go tradition? Am I going to go libertah? So it's not a big map. I'm feeling tradition pretty strong here. But when you choose libertah, you can get a free worker or a free settler, which is actually a significant boost in the early game, even if you're not going to expand a lot. Because then you can spend the turns you would have spent making a worker or a settler building something else instead. But as you can see, I'm trying to build a worker. And it's not going well, because food, food, food, food, food, food, food. Now I could move some of these guys over to here. Stupid. This marble only gives you money. I could move this guy here too, but then starvation. Don't want to do that. So I'm actually going to just stick with the default focus, which is food, food, food. And hopefully I'll grow enough that I can get a guy working here and here without starving. And maybe if I finish this worker in seven turns, I'll actually have a new guy in six turns. So maybe I'll finish the worker in six turns. But six or seven turns, I'll be able to then work here, work here. So marble really changes your whole game plan. Because marble, if you check the help, marble, plus 15% production when building ancient and classical era wonders in the city where it has worked. So once I get this marble, it's like if you have this, this changes your whole early game. Because now you can build wonders really easily. So I'm researching animal husbandry, so that when my worker is done. This will take five turns. So after the worker is done in seven turns, I'll be able to work here. If I open my tech tree, see I've already got mining, which means I can chop down a forest. And I've already got masonry. I prepared myself for the marble. I'm going to have to get archery. I'm basically trying to get archery and writing. If I get archery, I can build my special bowman. If I get writing, I could try to rush the great library by chopping down these forests with the worker. And I'll obviously work the marble first to get the 15% bonus. Then chop down the forests. And also, I'll get this, plus 15% production when building wonders, one happy. So if I get this, and the forest, and the marble, I should be able to build the great library before RIM. So tradition, yes. RIM is offering me a deal. Yeah, OK, we just met on the previous turn. His special Shoshone scout and my spearman. Spearman's weak because he just killed two barbarian warriors all on his own. He's kind of badass. Peace if I give him 30 gold. How about we modify this deal? Oh, see, RIM's only making three gold to turn on making four. That's important news here. How about this? How about, let's see, he doesn't have any anything yet. Oh, but look, he has more gold in his coffer than I do. He must have gotten that from meeting more city-states. He probably met with that scout. He's probably met all three. I want to build a scout, but I can't. I need the worker sooner that I need the scout. And hopefully the spearman can hold me up, right? Yeah, he must have met three. This thing is four city-states. He must have met all three of the other ones. So it could be like RIM, city-state, city-state, city-state, anyway. You know what? Let's just not propose a counter-deal. Let's just refuse. OK, RIM has declared war on me. Great, big deal. All right, let's move my spearman into the city, where he's nice and safe, and can't be attacked by the scout. And I don't think there's anything else to do on this particular turn. I'm going to have to kill these barbarians at some point. But right now, I just really need this worker. And I need RIM scout not to steal my worker. So after the worker. Oh, this is the special walls of Babylon. And all my advisors really want me to build the special walls of Babylon, but I can't build them right now. I'm going to have to build, like, I'm going to have to get the archery and build my special archer, special bowmans. They increase the d- yeah, OK, I'll get them later. I will definitely build the d- My production is just so weak, right? And all my special tiles are these whales here. And I'd love to work these whales, but I don't know how to make a workboat yet. So I think after I discover writing, I'm going to have to get sailing, because then I could build the fishing boat. It's going to be animal husbandry, archery, riding, sailing, something like that. Or animal husbandry, riding archery, sailing. I pretty much need this, this, and this. Those are the three things I need. Once I have those, I mean, I could just get wheel or whatever. But I'll be able to build that library. And once I get a library, I can get everything else pretty easily. I don't think Rim can beat me to it, because he is playing as a shone, not particularly great at building wonders. And I got marble and tradition. So it doesn't really get better than that. I guess the only thing I could do better is I got the faith. I think there's a production, there's a religion pantheon you can get that gives you bonuses for building wonders. But I can't deal with that right now. All right, and that is the end of this turn. Next turn.


The Titan's hosting the Patriots tonight. Nah, this is hot. Here we go. I don't want to catch puns. Friends! Started from the bottom, now we're here. Get our teeth. That's all, let's get it. All right. Get about 20 of us out here, bro. Tom! Yo. You go. We got to get it together, oh. All right, Joe, you got any dry towels? Man, I'm drenched. Blitz coming. Sappy. Feeling heat. Stepping up. Set! Reshard! Weaver! Yeah, weave. Good boy. You got to run your feet and run. Keep turning them out. I'm going to wear them down. All right. Let's go to fellas. Let's work. Hey, can we get a fix? Let me get in the middle. Let me get in the middle. Boys, what a great CEO, man. Friday all came a long way. Three season is over, ladies and gentlemen. Final score. Tessie 23, New England 7. Hey, what are you doing? Yo, this is so raw, man. So this guy is Dutch, man. Hey, can we get a picture? Yeah, yeah, I hope, man. Yeah, so it's over. So it's over. Love. Rest up.


I read the research that came out that if you plant 3.04 trillion trees you can stop climate change. Now I'm just like you.  Let's do it. Tali Orad is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Tali is a change baker, an engineer, and a serial entrepreneur. She is the founder of onetriedlion.org NGO with a mission to collectively make a meaningful impact by bringing communities together to plant trees and help fight climate change while mitigating the climate effects on small communities. Tali's first NGO came about after she saved the life of a dying baby resulting in her founding an NGO to raise awareness to CPR education. Tali is also the co-founder of Wibble and the founder of Screen, a startup that helped balance technology usage between legitimate educational one and destructive addiction. She is a thrive guest contributor, the host of the Butterfly Effect podcast and a frequent speaker. You can watch her latest TED Talk about the work at onetriedlion on ted.com and I would ask you to go out and watch it and let's make it go viral. It was fabulous that it went from a TEDx to immediately to a TED Talk and it's getting good resonance already. Tali believes in the power of people to make a change and hopes with the help of the people she can help our planet. Tali, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Mark. Excited to be here. So we have a lot in common. I'm going to let my listeners up to speed about you and I and how we know each other. We belong to several groups and organizations together, our passive cross at Kinnernet and at the H-Farm in Italy, Rancaldo close to Venice at the H-Farm campus and I believe that's also where we had our original discussion about your organization. Correct. The thing that you don't know is I've also saved several lives. I used to work for the American Red Cross as an instructor trainer. I'm a paramedic by training, started out as a medical assistant, went into pre-med and nursing and then actually as an emergency medical technician but I actually owned a company when I was much younger doing first aid CPR, first responder training and a lot around first response and CPR training, defibulation, adult and lifeguard certification and training, things like that. So that's really interesting and great to see that that's one of your first NGOs and how you raise awareness about that. So I really think that's important and that's also a way that I look at the world is I want to be prepared to help and serve humanity, to help them in time of need but also to give them the tools and educations to do something, to respond, to have some kind of action to help humanity instead of just watching our world collapse into death and destruction to kind of have the tools. What can we do? Can we plant a tree? Can we do CPR somebody's not breathing and doesn't have a pulse? Can we do the Heimlich maneuver or other methods to clear blocked airways and things to help people make it through this this rough world that we're in although very beautiful and so I think that's really neat and we just barely saw each other. We were at COP26 together and we saw each other at the Ice Hub. How was your experience? What did you think? At COP26 or at the Ice Hub? So I went to COP26 to Glasgow with well first of all I got in last minute not because I didn't want to is because I was cautious for my admission and then I realized somebody need to represent the trees. There's going to be a lot of talks and a lot of technology but there is a technology that exists and ancient technology is created by Mother Nature and it needs to get full center stage and this was the reason I went and we saw each other at the Ice Hub where we had the experience to see what will happen if we'll continue in a positive and and take action continue making the change what will happen in 2030 when we'll look back and see that we succeeded. I do not want to think of what will happen if we don't and I'm very hopeful. I feel like a lot of the work will be done actually outside of the blue zone and not from the delegates not from the top but actually from small organization from the bottom youth and climate activists were present and I love that and I'm hopeful because I want to be because if I will not be we won't get anywhere. So did you participate in any of the Fridays for Futures or the climate markers or the protests or the strikes at all? I was with some of the Extinction Rebellion that were there we I sat with them we talked it's at one point one of the things that bothered me a little bit but was able to maybe mitigate is at one point they were policemen passing by and they were saying oh here they are again and for me it was a little sad because at the end of the day we're all here to make a difference and they're there to keep it so we are all safe they're just doing their jobs and it's not them or us and I've heard a lot of but them in terms of the blue zone as well it's them and us it's not it's all of us with the same goal with the same purpose. Yeah I agree I the climate conferences should really allow everyone to have a seat at the table in a voice and it's just not that way it's extremely hard to get in and that's a lot of pre-planning advanced planning some some people plan upwards you know 12 months in advance at the end of one COP they're already planning to go to the next one so COP 27 will be in Egypt and a lot of people are already starting to book and plan their their attendance there to make sure the voice is heard but it is extremely hard hard to get in although it was astounding this COP had the most attendance and non-party delegates and attendants were actually the oil, coal and gas industry according to the Guardian Post that came out just yesterday as a matter of fact that more so than any other country delegation out there which is disheartening to me because there was a this TED talk that was just before this COP in October where Dr. Johan Rockstrom was there and we also had Fridays for Future and Extinction Rebellion on Stage with Shell Oil, the Shell company and the CEO actually said that they'd been disinvited that they weren't invited as well but then to hear that they had a lot of so to say different types of lobbyists and representation there one way or the other was was a little disheartening I believe it's it's a voice for everyone as everybody is allowed to be there but to have it be such a hard meeting to get in and then to see that the representation is so strong from the oil, coal and gas the end result and I don't know how much you were involved or heard about this is that the COP26 kind of as far as nations delegations negotiators went failed us we ended up somewhere between 2.3 degrees of warming and upwards of 2.6 with our nationally determined contributions and the ambitions and goals that they set fell short on a nation and country level but on a private organization, public organizations, NGOs and I guess which was a big difference that this COP out of all others there was representations you know obviously from big brands like Salesforce and Ikea and Google and Facebook and and and likes of the other corporate type of sponsorships that that there was talks of 130 trillion US dollars which is I think it's 40 trillion close to 40 trillion US dollars more than we need to achieve the sustainable development goals and to reach that 1.5 degrees of warming through just sustainable development infrastructure and money's needed to achieve those goals so that that was great to hear whether those that's greenwashing or ambition so what it tells me and long story short is that uh nation systems the big brother or whoever those those country representations are failing us and their negotiations but the private sector is really stepping up to the plate and that's also what we saw during this pandemic so during the pandemic all the country and nation ambitions towards the Paris agreement and the sustainable development goals shifted to the COVID everybody was making sure we had vaccines and protection around COVID and they kind of the climate ambitions took the short cost and and we kind of took a step back on on our climate ambitions but that all the private sector stepped up to the plate not only met help with essential services of food and trees and climate things but they also stepped up to the plate with the monies needed for our climate ambitions is what what we're seeing so that was kind of my big takeaway I'd like to know is is this your first cop and and what other insights maybe could you share with us that you got out of out of the cop from from this experience and how did you feel about it so first of all I'll say yes I was a newbie we went back and forth I asked you so many questions before I got on the plane and the train and the bus and and another train and walked and walked and walked so long and a boat also so it was yes my first cop I was expecting a big mess I was expecting a lot of people I'm coming from the tech industry so I know what big conferences look like and I was expecting a messy a messy thing I must say it wasn't it was very organized I got just to see a lot of people meet a lot of people and you were talking about initiatives and during the pandemic and a lot of organizations and by private sectors doing a lot of things so I started one trillion and and maybe at one point we'll get to how it happened because that's a pretty funny funny or maybe not funny story but we started and we were planting during the pandemic and a lot of organizations were planting as well we see a lot of that for people for climate we are planting with small communities and one of one of our stories in in Kenya one of our planting sites is it happened in February and it was part of a school project we were planting with the village and the kids we added another project to educate the kids on how you sprout to see how you collect them germinating the entire process and when it was time to actually plant them the kids couldn't we started the kids couldn't do it because the entire country was shut down and there was a chance to actually bring we brought all the not we not me specifically obviously all the people the amazing people on the ground brought the communities and the kids together and educate them on what is COVID-19 what is the importance of putting on on a mask why do we need to wash our hands social distancing so we took advantage in a way of our tree initiative project to teach them on how to stay safe and another beautiful story that that we got to hear is because of the lockdown nobody could take care of those trees and nobody could maintain them again the kids in the community were supposed to do that but they were in lockdown one of the one of the men in that community lost their job and community came together collected money and gave him money and he was able to break the curfew and go and take care of those trees so going back to your question is all of us coming together towards a goal and you don't necessarily need the government to do anything because if you have NGO and the communities and people and other private sectors that can come together because it wasn't just one trillion in that there were other organizations involved we can do amazing things what was your biggest takeaway from cop 26 and then I'll move forward more into one trillion then we need to start collaborating and we cannot just rely on technology and money and we are here for one another there it's kind of like I just read in the Guardian that they were defining the climate crisis as think about it as a little girl is standing in the middle of the road and a bus is about to hit her you'll see that you'll obviously run and try to save that girl this is the same thing with climate the girl is is our earth climate is about to so it's up to us to come and make the change and and I feel like I I feel like we saw it at cop that people are willing to take action small individual companies NGO grassroots indigenous people we are all here regardless I'm just lacking a plan from either the UN or other countries this is what I'm lacking from cop I know there were agreement I know they're yes we get money what is the plan to how to execute because you can have a lot of money and rich nowhere and you'll see it with at least in the tech world so I hope this time I answered your question well besides the ISUB in Glasgow were you at any other pavilions or side events that you can talk about so I was at a planet mark where it was an electric bus it's a group of amazing people um on an electric bus for I think it's a month that they went all over the UK and explained the impact of climate change what it means why do we need to cut emissions all those things so that was one thing that I experienced um there was also a pavilion of um the sustainable home and the there were a few things of how we can utilize and take advantage of local instead of importing and then it's the local logging to build your house it's growing local food and not going to and I don't know getting your banana from Mexico where you can get it from if you're in Europe where it grows or just buy what's relevant for that time so a lot of those things I love that yeah those are two things that I didn't get to see there was a lot of side events there was a lot of different hubs and pavilions outside of the blue zone outside of the green zone there was the world climate summit which what they called investment cop there was the sustainable innovation form also put on by the climate action hub there was the woods house the goals house put on by Freud's and project everyone there was the New York Times climate action hub or climate hub and they was there as well yeah yeah there and I mean there are so many side pavilions events it's almost really hard to see but it's also very difficult to get in because of the pandemic not only was there daily lateral flow tests but there was you know pre-test and and long lines and security so it was it didn't make it easy and then when you've got this mass sometimes you you get that or I would think you'd get this feeling that you're kind of muffled you can't really talk you can't resolve the issues but surprisingly enough it seems like communication went really well the the one last reason why I bring that up is the ice hub is actually a Davos thing it's a world economic form thing from William McDonough from McDonough and partners and Michele Brown guard and Delta Development they created the ice hub which is normally right outside the Steinberger hotels kind of it's a almost a pop-up building that that is glass and that's why they call it the ice hub or ice house in Davos and in Glasgow they call it the ice hub but William McDonough was also there but it was also the kind of that fraction of people who normally go to the world economic form kind of gathering at the ice hub there so for those who could not be there I want to give our listeners an insight of what it is to be on the fringes what it's like to be at the protest what it's like to to see a big event like that because it got more coverage than any other cop in history and even though we fell short on on a national level it was still an important meeting enough about all of that because we've been through it but we now we've got to make sure the feats to the fire the monies get divided and we get some ambitions and things on place I want to go back just a little bit when we first were we're talking in H farm in Italy and you were telling me about one trillion dot org and and what you were doing starting beginning you were asking me all sorts of questions tell me a little bit about that journey what you thought from our conversations you say boy that marks a crazy guy and or what what was the hope about the direction you wanted to go and and how you began this whole process so it's it's really funny because it started at another event in friends in avalon at avalon at kinner net yeah exactly and we had a debate that was done a little different and the debate was a few questions were put down and one has to ask a question you're broken into group of three one has to ask the question one listens while the other one answers and it's an interesting dynamic because now we're talking just the two of us but we don't know how much people are actually getting from what we're saying so that was a nice exercise and when we finished that we all went we had lunch and a friend of mine put one of the cards on the table and he said if you guys want to just go ahead the question was if there is one thing you can magically fix what would that be and at the time I was working on balancing screen addiction and disrupting the education market and I had a technology startup working on all of that and I was the last one to answer that question and I was telling my friends I honestly I'm not going to answer that because there will be nobody to educate there will be nobody to teach anything if you don't fix up climate so that was happening June 24th on July 4th I read the research that came out that if you plant 3.04 trillion trees you can stop climate change now I'm just like you I'm a doer and I was basically putting my money where my mouth is and I said okay there is a solution it's right here in front of us let's do it and this is how one trillion came about I started with just planting for the sake of planting long story short throughout each and every project we've learned a lot on how to make it more impactful for people and for climate not just supporting the ecosystem and the biodiversity bringing native trees we wanted to make sure that those trees are going to be taken care of and we can have somebody pay somebody to take care of those trees or we can create a synergy between the trees and the people and this is how everything came about and one trillion is where it is right now because we see that when there is a connection between us and nature and when we are part of that ecosystem we respect nature we take care of nature and we take care of those trees. I love it I love it so I know you you usually like to ask me this question but I'm going to ask you this question do you have a favorite tree that you've really come to love out of this process yeah Mark that's not fair it's like asking your mom what's her favorite child so I it's interesting each tree has a different benefit each tree in the in different country I I love them all but if I'll have to pick a favorite and it's interesting I you mentioned the butterfly effect podcast this is the question I ask all my listeners at the end and I it's obviously not the scientific research by all means but one of the things that I kept on seeing is everybody has a childhood relationship to a tree and this is why my favorite tree is an avocado tree when I was a child I sprouted the avocado seed and when it reached a certain size I brought it to my grandma's house and we planted it together and it is still alive so I would say the avocado how about you what is your favorite tree I also have a very hard time deciding because I have a relationship to many types of trees so I come from Germany's largest organic farmers six generations of Germany's largest organic farmers and we had lots of different types of trees on on our property and still do and I'm also trained in permaculture and regenerative ag from Bill mollison and and Jeff Lawton and many other greats just matter of fact the podcast before yours was Alan savory as well so I'm a big big fan of mixing trees and and agriculture together to to get that soil health to get that micro risa and that wood wide web going underneath the ground to make sure we have healthy soils but also that vital microbial system going on to just replenish things I I would have to say I really love lemon trees I really love avocado trees but I'm a big huge fan of perennials I love nuts as well but I love perennials period right in front of me here I have two avocado trees I have a mango that I've just done hydroponically here from a mango that I that I ate and so I like to farm I like to do my own variations so it's really hard for me to say but I would probably have to say that avocado if I was laid laid down on it as well so but many many I like olive trees I like really natural olives as well so I think there's a way to do that without lots of oils and salts and and different natural processes to get raw olives as well so yeah I like to bring me back to my childhood I mean I grew up in Israel and in Israel they are protective the olive oils and if you do have one and my my uncle had one in his backyard and he used to make his own olives which was just to taste them it's completely completely different than what you get at the store today oh it's so much different and I have a lot of Greek friends and a lot of Turkish friends and and they all do all of us different I had a big debate with a huge olive producer and from Greece and this is I want natural olives I want them water-based no salts no no vinegars no oils none of that I just want them raw and natural no processing he's like that's not possible we can't do that that's not that doesn't work I was like oh that works and they're really good you know these big huge green olives and that so yeah I mean it's really specific though and this is what you touched upon and I like that you you said that it's really specific on where you're at in the world where you live where you're from where those trees are being planted and that goes back to a little bit of what I said as well it's up to the indigenous microorganisms of the area where you're standing where you live where you plant those trees what will work the best what kind of tropical or conditions are what kind of the conditions are for for planting for agriculture or for trees period in in those areas because there is and anywhere even on degraded soils or deforested uh desertified uh soils there is probably not much but there is even an indigenous microorganism that can be found in those areas that can really thrive and replenish those areas and so it's always best to work with those as well and in farming we call them IMOs so short for indigenous microorganisms and and try to use mycorrhiza as well so um Lynn Margolis was one of the first to really talk a lot about mycorrhiza but it's it's also something that's very specific there's thousands and hundreds of thousands of different types of mycorrhiza but if you've ever seen trees growing out of the side of a cliff or amongst rocks you're like how is that possible there's hardly any soil well it's that mycorrhiza which are these finite hair like fungus particles mycorrhiza microorganisms that are so fine they can get into the rocks and actually get the nutrients and and what they need not only to hold that tree to to something um that is basically a rock but also to get the that water and that nutrients out of out of the ground and so that leads me nicely to the next question I have for you and how do you find the right types of trees to plant in these different areas and what areas of the world are you currently working in and and what's your progress today tell us a little bit more and what you're working on what's going on uh kind of what your numbers are catch us up to speed okay so um we have planted different continent different places I mentioned Kenya there is Tanzania, Uganda, Armenia, Thailand we're about to plant in Brazil, Guatemala I know I'm missing a few and we do have experts in our organization but as many as much as those experts are experts we use the knowledge of the organization we work on at the ground they know best and I am a true believer in going back to the source and understanding what is it that works there because I I can tell them okay listen listen that tree is perfect and it worked great in the town next door but there is something that isn't working right here because of an animal that is um colliding with it or any other story that doesn't fit so always appreciating and listening and taking into consideration what's happening at the ground we are here to support I'm not here to tell them this is what you need to plant you mentioned kind of animals integrating with with some of the plants are there any learning lessons anything that you guys have seen when when you run into planting certain trees and you realize boy they're eating before they can even get big enough to survive by by animals or the animals are disrupting them what are you seeing in that respect so I mean New York is a perfect example this is where I live and I also planted a forest in my area and one of the things I keep on seeing is the deers they're just running through eating everything alive so I have to make sure this is not I want to give those trees a fair chance but it goes both ways we are reforesting so the animals will have a place to be a place to stay the project in Armenia is a corridor to reforest again and create a corridor between the lands because there were so many patches of lands that you start seeing animals just don't have areas to live in and this is a problem we whether you believe COVID-19 was made in the lab or not made in the lab but part of the diseases we are starting to see is because animals don't have an area to live in and the forest is their natural area to live a jungle in Panama we saw the indigenous people starting to cut down pieces of the jungle and then we start seeing an issue with the jaguars and then how do you bring them back then this is their natural habitat let's help them I'm specifically on the deer that you mentioned so I used to own a company in the United States as well that did a lot with deer and elk and that and a lot of deer elk and white-tailed deer they eat the birch trees aspen trees they eat the bark off the trees that's kind of they're a white type of a tree anyway but if you see there's these black marks on them and that's where they're actually eating that and you know you sometimes you'll see the deer actually kind of like up against the tree high trying to reach their neck as high as possible eating the bark off so it's really good to to know those type of things but also as you mentioned the COVID there's a big new thing coming out especially in the United States of these white-tailed deer have a form of SARS and COVID-2 COVID-2 that is much more worse than COVID-19 and can spread very easily to the human population we don't have really much help for that right now and it goes through agriculture so it'll go first for the white-tailed deer to animal agriculture cows or pigs or sheep or and then can transfer into to human populations as well I don't necessarily believe at all and I'm not controversial at all or esoteric that that the COVID started in a lab but what I do believe is that it's it's a biome issue when it emerged in the Wuhan area was really because of our biome in the area where it emerged as a heavy industrial area with a lot of pollution and and cyanide in the air but also heavy industrial agriculture and it was right around the time spraying pesticides and chemicals for that industrial agriculture so there's a lot of air pollution a lot of chemicals and bad air going around that area and just the perfect storm mixed with the wet market I think really induce that spread whether we would have air travel or not I would I strongly believe that that the COVID would have spread 10 to 20 days across the entire world anyway just because of the air the way our air streams move around the world that it would have spread anywhere but because we travel at spreads even faster in an exponential way but it's tied to to trees it's tied to agriculture it's tied to those animals that eat those trees and I think we had this discussion before when we talked about it a H farm I just come out with a book with Harold that was printed on rock paper and I was printing and getting ready on another book that was printed on rock paper before and I said this fabulous innovation a tree we cut it down we use it for toilet paper we use it for books to write on but it's it's the our world's most wonderful innovation it captures carbon it creates oxygen it cleans our our air it it you know does photos in water provides water heals our soils it actually does this wood-wide web that helps support micro riser growth it helps support fungus growth it helps support the health of our soils around medicine mental health even our cosmetics goes back to trees so it's moving in any way anywhere you go you'll see trees whether you like it or not I agree you say this quite a bit that trees are an innovation but I'd like to hear some more maybe some of the things that you discussed in your TED talk or why you tell people it's an innovation and do you find it hard to convince them of that you know they're they're looking for some kind of new carbon capturing method or some some real new type of innovation out there and then you say but you know what really this is an innovation is that a struggle to make that distinction or to get investments or to get people around that say no that's not innovation that's always been here or what what are your experiences and can you tell us maybe a little bit more how you you talk about that so one of the things that we keep on seeing is we want immediate results in everything I mean you click a button you order something on Amazon you wanted yesterday so the same is with solving this and we're saying okay we are very intelligent species and we can invent a solution however I I'm coming from the as an entrepreneur and from the tech world and I did invent I had an IoT company that it's an internet of things I had a hardware solution to balance screen time and I realized that part of us balancing our screen time is understanding that we also need to regulate ourselves and we also need to internalize the change in ourselves so going to the trees is there is a solution it's a simple one we don't need to make to invent something new and by the way when you invent something it also takes things first of all it takes time it takes money it takes emissions you need to mobilize it so now you bring back even when you create the car right your car is before you even you drove it for the first time you have a huge carbon footprint so why bring a technology that will have a huge impact on what you're trying to fix in a negative way versus try to look at whatever is there so this is how I see things and again it's not something that I it came up right away I was looking for a solution I was looking for that technology and then realizing well don't need to look that far we also need to remember that it's not right away I cannot it takes time for trees to grow it takes time for us to plant it when you plant there is a lot of politics going in distribution of money I was talking about maintenance one of the things that I bring on the talk is I bring an example of the great green wall of Africa which is a project I was not involved in I was just I was curious and this is an ambitious project that started in 2007 and the goal for is is to create a natural wall throughout the entire width of Africa combining different countries which is amazing if we can do it because again it's collaboration between people and it's been 14 years the majority of it didn't happen I think it's just 14% only or 15% only planted 80% of it failed and the 20% that did succeed was going towards you mentioned it before it's agroforestry and this is bringing the communities bringing the farmers teaching them basic irrigations showing them that the trees are not in any sort of way intimidating or taking away their jobs or their income they're actually helping them because the second you bring in the trees you mentioned water you mentioned soil I I got a chance to speak with an organization somewhere in the world that asked us for funding for their planting and each and every tree planting project goes through tons of paperwork and checking and balances and interviews and at one of those discussions I I just started to ask her so tell me a little bit what what's happening why do you think the trees could help you and she said we have a lot of mudslides and there is droughts on one hand and there is is heavy rain which create those mudslides and washes away the entire village and the goal is to plant and then they were working on creating mud ovens so they'll be able to cook and work and sustain themselves and I asked so what do you do with those trees and she told me we grow them for firewood and I said this is great because you do need firewood to work your oven however you still need other forests because this is what will stop the mudslides this is what will stop all those natural disasters not right away not tomorrow but it will take time and people are not ready to wait as I said we want that immediate verification right now right here right now and this is where technology comes in and trees are not so it's a little hard to get money to convince people that this is this brilliant technology that we need to invest in I'm still hopeful otherwise I wouldn't continue doing what I'm doing I still feel that there is place for those trees as the research said 3.04 trillion trees this is by the way approximately five trillion dollars funding that is it and the UN and other countries gave more than that so we can do that we just need to willingly say let's invest in that technology it's brilliant and it's alive and it's ancient and it is working it has proven to be working it clears our air it gives us we talked about it but we can talk again there um a way that it can be a new economic model so an ecological economic model where it's self-sustaining so what I mean by that is that not only are you planting trees but through those trees you're getting the necessary seeds or those hybrids or those genetic trees that really have not just resilience but are good breeds that will you know grow fast grow strong survive most of the things but also that you start your own nursery your own seed banking out of those trees that you that you are planning that it becomes kind of a circular process that that's self-sustaining but also pays for itself maybe that you use in certain areas perennials that have other added benefits to not only feed livestock or to feed humans in one way but also can maybe provide an income to go ahead and generate and plant more trees are you thinking that that direction as well or is it more or less that you're you're looking for monies to plant trees uh until until you get enough there or is there a longer term sustainable model out of this so some of the projects that we are working in for example in Tanzania where we are reinforcing the arc mountains of Tanzania the students and the local it's it's interesting it's it's the peasant women that go back to the forest and collect those seeds germinate go back to the nursery germinate them sprout them and enabling the kids in the community to go back and plant them which is again go back to as being us as being part of that ecosystem because we create jobs we give meaning and and we allowing them to also appreciate what they see and and how it works so yes um collecting those seeds and then you can replant them we still need to continue maintaining and and supporting those communities because they still need funding this is not enough to just go collect the seeds you need to stay I mean you need to pay the bills and there's electricity and all those things we talked a little bit about cop 2016 at the beginning um one of the things that I did see there was the vertical farming and one of the things I got to speak with the founder there and to see other things that can be done with that and one of the things is those tree seeds that once we grow them in vertical farming are usually more resilient again I'm quoting what they told me I'm I'm not 100% sure it is correct it makes sense uh but they are more resilient and then you can go and and plant them back so we have that um seed bank in a way and so if people do not know seed bank exist of all plants and and trees and other grown um missing the word here but um yeah I I totally agree so I do a lot around hydroponics and and vertical farming it's called controlled environmental agriculture's closed systems that's a great way to do seed banking also to do germination get to seedlings and then you can then transfer them into actual plant and planting them into to soil that the key factor is is most most of those um vertical farms are those around the world there's probably to date roughly around 1600 in the world and only about not even 10 that are very successful but even those 10 that are successful are not producing 100% of their own renewable energy they're not using battery backups they're not using efficient energy usage of HVAC and water management they're they're efficient but they're still working off of fossil fuels or other type of energies that they're getting their seeds from somewhere else they're not doing that complete closed system kind of this cradle to cradle or circular economy type of a closed system so I totally agree if you do it in the right way that that is the smartest way to do it and then it's something that can continue to sustain itself to to move to those areas where then it can be the be planted there's much more at this this big movement I mentioned that I spoke to Alan Savery on the podcast before years and and there's this big movement of rewilding so we've we've done some amazing long-term studies and experimentation so to say with the national parks and preserves and conservation where we've taken huge areas in Africa and all around the world where we get these national parks there you know hundreds of thousands of acres and hectares of land that we try to preserve and conserve that we're still seeing now 10 20 30 years later that they're still even though they're pristine fenced off protected that they're still degradation desertification and destruction going on there even though we're not touching it we're not doing anything and that's because there are certain things that happen in nature naturally fires or an intervention there's a management of land where we move agriculture or animals through that land to help regenerate the soils and that and also the the type of of climate impact that is occurring in that and how we deal with that nature and so I think there are some tools out there I wouldn't say they're they're 100 free but they're pretty darn close I mean photosynthesis solar and a lot of those things of rewilding processes are pretty pretty good and if we set them up in the right way we can get these food for us so we can get these forests that provide new growth and provide food that that really can do things and I think his name is John Liu are you familiar with him of the restoration group John Liu yes and so one thing that I want us to remember is nature will regenerate itself the forest will regenerate itself you mentioned fires as one of the one of the natural things I got a chance to speak with a forest and fire ecologist after the first fire in California and one of the things that he was explaining that we do need the fires and for example the way that the sequoia tree seed is germinated is by fire and it is us that are interfering and creating a damage that brings those fire to become deadly and spreading in in such a way that we see right now we obviously have now rising temperatures and houses are too close to wild areas that this is why all those things are happening but this is natural and in real and I recently saw a photo in in Colombia of a crater where everything around it looks very bare inside there is a natural jungle that's created because nobody was touching it nobody was doing anything and unfortunately if we will continue in the way that we are right now we will not be here to see how nature corrects itself and it will so it's up to us to basically wake up and say okay I get it I respect it and I'll start following the rules of nature I love that okay I have five more questions for you and then we're close to the end of our time the the first one is are you a global citizen and how would you feel about a world with the removal of all our borders walls and limitations and what is your view and understanding of this? Yes so yes I am a global citizen I mentioned at the beginning I was born in Israel and I live in the United States and I belong to both countries and neither I belong everywhere I will also say that I see two nations in this world the sea and the land and from I will even correct it the sea and the trees so trees are the second largest nation and I want to be part of that that nation it's not you or me or men women colors religion at the end of the day we're just another species the human species and I don't see a reason why we should be separated by borders yeah that what the nation of plants is definitely bigger than than any other species on earth um the next question is the hardest one I have for you today it's the burning question WTF and it's not the swear word it's what's the futures and plural I want to know what your specific vision is not anyone else's of what's the future where do we need to go and where are we going and what's your hope it's the future that's a that's a very tough question my future is a future where my kids can grow in an area where it's green when they can breathe air and see sunlight and enjoy a clean ocean and drink water without worrying and play around without thinking of tomorrow and we'll get there we will we just need to come together for that how do you feel about the sustainable development goals how are you implementing them and one trillion dot org and do you have a belief that we'll reach the goals by December 2030 uh and you're also your feelings on the Paris agreement if if we'll make it uh well you said we didn't make it already when we started you said we're we passed the two degrees so we didn't make the Paris agreement hopefully we'll make uh the SDGs goals by 2030 um I'm not waiting for somebody else to do it so I'm part of another a few organizations part of it is a movement called catalyst 2030 where it's amazing people amazing organizations that are working towards achieving those goals by 2030 um the notion currently is saying that if we wait and do it by the UN we'll get there by 2087 and this is a bit a bit too late um one trillion is working on two of them is number 13 and number 15 one of them is land life on land and the other one is the environment and this is the trees which are fighting climate change per se and then planting with communities is helping people while at the same time helping animals so all all 17 sustainable development goals are tied to agriculture seafood food and beverages but they're all a system it's virtually impossible to work just on one or two and not touch on on the other ones um just from what I know from you and your organization I can tell you that you're already working on 11 of them and if you if you're not actively pushing all 11 of those you you I gotta I gotta put your feet to the fire you gotta step up to the plate and work on them because zero hunger good health and well-being uh climate action life on land life the low water and and 11 of them are all tied to not just tree planting but to the system of solving the problem that we're in for climate climate change and how trees can really help in that in that system so wherever you're planting those trees and how you want to restore conserve and heal the environment there you're healing the soils you're helping to produce oxygen you're helping to clean the air you're capturing carbon but you're also educating you're also possibly providing in a food forest or a form of food or supporting infrastructure to absorb water to to stop deforestation and flood and that has a ripple effect to empower women empower girls to help with zero hunger for food to help with education to connect people back to nature um there are so many ways that it ties into there so don't forget those please don't cherry pick the sdgs i know that there's many things that you can do to to help in that respect and and to move forward and and it's a better business model it's a new economy for the world at least till 2030 whether i i hope optimistic and hopefully believe we will achieve it we'll hit that exponential roadmap i have faith in humanity i have faith in organizations like you and and those who take actions that that we can achieve it uh we all need to do it together and we need to see it as a system the more we get into that siloed approach uh uh the more we will fail and not achieve those things the last question i have right before you get there sure go ahead i wanted to mention is um one of the the project in kenya that like helped us shape where we are right now um you mentioned the rest of the sdgs obviously we don't label them because at the end of the day it doesn't really matter those labels it's the results the end result and yes we did have the project of planting we did educate the kids there was also the aspect of the pandemic in addition to that there were two other unrelated projects that were added actually three one of them is solar lights so the kids can there was there's no electricity in that village so the kids can read in the dark after school um the second one is compost toilet that replaced the pit toilet that contaminated the underground water the third one is clean water station that enables those kids to drink or the entire village to drink clean water and wash their hands and i was talking about that ecosystem and closing that loop before i loved to see how each and every component got together and filled in the puzzle so water station the gray the gray water that came out went to um water a tree the compost from the compost toilet when it's harvested after 12 months went to fertilize a tree and i again the pandemic was tough on all of us and i'm leaving breathing dreaming those trees all along all the time and all the organization i'll work with know that so they keep on sending me all those things and i got up one morning and i got this video which brought me to tears and that was a birthday celebration of the compost toilet where they sang happy birthday the entire community was there they harvested the compost they sang happy birthday to the compost and went to fertilize a tree and it shows you how this is bigger than one SDG or another or those labeling it's just impact of those trees on our life and how they are improving our well-being while at the same time helping us stay in this planet alive by clearing out carbon from the atmosphere there was one message you could depart to our listeners as a sustainable takeaway and even if it's a couple messages that has the power to change our life what would it be your messages my message okay uh okay so the ecological value of trees to our environment is undeniable i mean we talked about it for an hour now and when we only look at trees as a technology for solving climate change we are missing an incredible opportunity to do something much bigger to not just protect the planet and mitigate climate change but also to foster and support communities that live on it when it comes to planting trees with communities i said it and i'll say it again we need to think globally but act locally we should consider how we plant and and ask ourselves who do we plan for not what do we plan for basically repositioning the trees role in human life not just as a carbon sequesterator but is a force to meet people's daily needs while at the same time allowing the community to reconnect to nature and this is for me answers this call trees are not another unique technology they are the technology and they have a bigger role to play in the grand scheme of things and in our communities we need to make sure we are not missing it love it tally thank you so much for letting us all inside of your ideas it's a sheer pleasure to see you it's glad that we could see each other so soon after cop 26 and i know we'll be seeing a lot more of you i want to follow up again in another year see what the progress is and sure you'll have many more stories to tell us unless there's something else you'd like to add that's all i have for you and i really appreciate you being on the show uh thank you i appreciate that and it was interesting being on the other side and not asking the questions all the time it was hard for me not to ask you all the questions so next time you'll be on my show i would love that that'd be great to come over on the butterfly effect that'll be great kim polman paul polman's wife she does reboot the future and she does a lot with the imaginal cells and and i think that's a fabulous book as well but i would i would love to talk to you about that that'd be so fun so i wish you well and we'll talk very soon thanks so much thank you thank you mark bye bye