Live from New York City, it's theCUBE. Covering CyberConnect 2017. Brought to you by Centrify and the Institute for Critical Infrastructure Technologies. In government industries together for the first time, a unique kind of collaboration, unlike normal events like Black Hat or RSA that are mostly about hacks and really geeky sessions. There's a great place for that. But again, this is the first of its kind and it's presented by Centrify. It's CUBE, it's an exclusive partner here. I'm John Furrier, co-founder of SiliconANGLE, my co-founder Dave Vellante here. Dave, I mean, Centrify really taking an industry proactive role, not having their own event. Instead, using their money to fund an industry event. This is the trend in digital media, presented by Centrify, not sponsored by or their event. We've seen this in the big data space before where events are sponsored for the community.  You know, General Keith Alexander, retired general was on the stage as the keynote, really talking about the crisis in the United States and around the world, around cyber security, cyber war, whole new reality. This is the thrust of the event. Well, they say content is king. Well, context is kind of the empire and the context here is the world is changing and the seriousness of that change is significant. General Alexander, many people may not know, General Keith former, retired general, Keith Alexander. He was the first head of chief of cyber security at US appointed by Obama. John, he was appointed director of the NSA in 2005. Now, you guys remember, I'm sure Stuxnet was right around 2004, 2005 when it was developed and it bridged the Bush to the Obama administration. So he had all the inside baseball. He didn't talk about Stuxnet, but that was- He did share some nice war stories. Yeah, but that was the first and most significant the way they got into New Tans and he was at the center of all that and he did share some war stories. He talked about Snowden. He talked about collaboration with the FBI. He talked about saving lives and basically said, hey, I stood in front of the ACLU. They basically undressed him, right? And then came back and said, hey, this is one of the most ethical agencies and law-abiding agencies I've ever seen. So he read that note from the head of the ACLU who was very proud of that. Yeah, and the Stuxnets is in the news, as obviously just yesterday was reported, actually the day before November 1st, November 2nd, that Stuxnet was highly underestimated. In fact, the digital certificates that were spoofed were been hanging around and it's been a malware has been out there. Again, this is an indictment of the problem that we have, which is we got to get the security. Now the things that the general talked about I want to get your reaction to because certainly I honed in on a couple of key things. Foundational tech for common defense. So he talked a lot about the Constitution and the role of government. I did a tweet on that, but what is the role of the government? That's the common defense of the United States. Citizens and business, one. Not just protect the Department of Defense. At the same time, he did kind of put a plug in that we need the civil liberties and privacy to be addressed. But this is the biggest crisis we have and it's a problem that can only be solved by working together. And if you look at Dave, the trends that we're following on theCUBE and SiliconANGLE and Wikibon, the common thread is community. If you look at blockchain and what's going on in that disruptive, decentralized world, the role of the community is critical. If you look at what's going on in security, it's the role of the community. If you look at open source, the biggest success story of our multiple generations and now impacting the younger generation in the computer science industry and computer industry, open source software, community. You're starting to see the role of communities where knowing your neighbor, knowing who's involved with things is really critical and he can't highlight it any more than this conference that Centrify is presenting with these gurus because they're all saying the same thing. You got to share the data. The communities got to work together. So common defense, maintaining civil liberties and maintaining privacy at the same time, solving the biggest crisis of our time. Well, the other big thing that John, you actually made this prediction to me a couple weeks ago was that government and industry are going to start working together. It has to happen. General Alexander basically said that, is it the government's role, job, to protect commercial industry? And it was an emphatic yes and pulled out his fake version of the Constitution and said yes and he got in front of Panetta and in front of the US Senate and made the case for that and I think there's no question about it that industries control critical infrastructure and industries aren't in a good position to protect that critical infrastructure. They need help from the government and the government has some of the most advanced technologies in the world. And the other thing we've been hearing from the executive at Atina is maintaining intelligence on the data and sharing is critical to resolve the problem. But his point was that most people spend time on an attack vector that's usually wrong. He said quote, you're better off having people be idle than chasing down an attack vector that's wrong. So his point is report that to the agencies quickly to one reverse engineer the problem. Most likely you're going to get better intel on the attack on the vector, then you can start working effectively. So he says a lot of problems that are being solved by unconventional means. Well, General Alexander said that when he was head of Cyber Command, his number one challenge was visibility on the attacks. They could only respond to those attacks. So my question to you, John, is how will data, big data, machine learning, AI, whatever you want to call it, how will that affect our ability as an industry to proactively identify threats and thwart them as opposed to just being a response mechanism? I think it's going to be critical. I think if you look at the AI and machine learning, AI is basically machine learning on steroids. That's really kind of what it is now, but it hopefully will evolve into bigger things. It's really going through the massive amounts of data. One of the points that the general Alexander talked about was the speed and velocity of how things are changing and that most IT departments can't even keep up with that right now. Nevermind security. So machine learning will allow things to happen that are different analysis faster, rather than relying on data lakes and all kinds of old modeling, just not fast enough, so speed. The other thing too is that as you start looking at security, this decentralized approach, most attacks are coming in on state sponsored but democratized attacks, meaning you can use open source and public domain software to provide attacks. This is what he's been talking about. So the number one thing is the data. Sharing the data, being part of a community approach where companies can work in sectors because there's a lot of trend data coming out that most attackers will come out and or state sponsored attacks will target specific things. First of all, the one problem that can be solved immediately, there's no way any of the United States military and or energy grid should be attached to the internet and you can mask out all foreign attacks just by saying only people in the US should be accessing. That's one network conventional thing you do, but getting the data out there is critical. But working in sectors, most attacks happen like on the financial services, industry, so if you're sitting there and trying to solve the problem and keep it on the down low, you're going to get fired anyway. The business is probably going to get hurt. Report it early with your peers in the community, share some data, anonymize that data, don't make it privacy breaching, but get it out there. Number one thing. Well here's the problem, is $80 billion has spent a year on security and a vast majority has still spent on perimeter security and we heard today that the number one problem is things like credential stuffing and password, poor user behavior and our response to that is education. Jim Ruth talked about that's a conventional response. We need unconventional responses. I mean the bottom line is there's no silver bullet to security. You talked about critical infrastructure should not be connected to the internet, but even then when you have an air gap and go back to Stuxnet, New Tans had an air gap and Musad got through the air gap. There's always a way to get through somehow. So there's no one silver bullet. It's a portfolio of approaches and practices and education and unconventional processes that you have to apply. And as we talked about- Well I mean there's no silver bullet but there are solutions and I think that's what he's saying. He gave a general Alexander gave specific examples when he was in charge of the NSA command center was terrorist attacks being thwarted. Those are actual secure problems on the terrorism front that were solved. There was a silver bullet for that. It was called technology. So as you generalize it Dave, I can hear you saying because IT guys want a silver bullet. I want to buy a product that solves my security problem. So here's the problem I have with that is I used to read Art Covey-Ello's memo every year. It was like he tried to do like the and he still does. But I look back every year I said do we feel safer and more secure than we were last year and every year the answer is no. So we, despite all the technology and we've talked about this on theCUBE with Pat Gelsinger, security is essentially a do-over. We do need unconventional new ways of attacking the problem. No debate. Well I'm just highlighting the point. I mean if you look at it from an IT perspective the old conventional wisdom was I want to buy a product. Hey vendor, sell me your security product. What general's kind of pointing out is he's kind of pointing out and connecting the dots is like hey what they learned in the NSA was it's an ongoing iterative thing that's happening in real time. It's not an IT solution anymore. It's a more of a holistic problem. Meaning if you don't understand the problem space you can't attack it. So when they talked about the terrorist attack they had a phone record. They had to give it to the FBI. The FBI had to get into it. They discovered the guy in basically 24 hours and then it took a week to kind of vet the information. You know luckily they caught it and saved a subway attack in New York City in 2008 that would have been devastating. Okay still they were successful but weeks. So machine learning and to your point is only going to accelerate those benefits. And again the real counterpoint that's general pointed out is civil liberties and privacy. Well Tom. I mean what do you want? You want subway attacks? Or you want to have your email and your email be clean? Or you want to have people read your email and no subway attacks? I mean come on. Well you and I have talked about this in the Cube and over the number of years and talking about Snowden and General Alexander brought it up. Basically he told the story and he was pretty emphatic as to his job was to protect not only the citizens in the United States but the infrastructure and basically saying we couldn't have done it without the laws that allowed us to analyze the metadata. I mean I think in my opinion what I think is going to happen is we're going to have a completely re-imagined situation on government. If you look at the trends with GovCloud what's going on with AWS, Amazon, web services in the federal area is an acceleration of massive agility and change happening. You're going to see a re-imagined of credentials. Re-imagining of culture around hiring and firing people out of the right people. I always say there should be a Navy SEALs for cyber, a West Point for cyber. So I think you're going to start to see a cultural shift from a new generation of leaders and a new generation of citizens in the U.S. that are going to look at citizenship differently. So for instance, Centrify which is putting on this event has an identity solution. That's an easy solution. Take it out of IT's problem. No one should be patching 1200 different IT systems in the government. Screw it. It's like a driver's license. Here's your credential. So there's new ways to think about it. Radical ways, progressive ways, whatever you want to call it. I think those are going to be coming so fast. Blockchain is a solution. Well I was going to ask you about that. So four out of five breaches are password related from credential stuffing or just bad password behavior. Everybody uses the same password because they can remember it across all these sites. So four out of five of the breaches can be traced back to poor password behavior. So will things like blockchain or single sign-on, really the answer, that's the wrong question. When will and how will things like blockchain come to front and center to solve that problem? I don't know Dave. I mean all I know is in today's Wall Street Journal and Andy Kessler writes a story that if you want to predict the future it's all about dodgeball.  So you got to fail first. Everyone has an opinion. Nobody actually knows the answer. This has been a premise in the tech business. In my opinion, my opinion is to reimagine things. You got to look at it differently. So if you look at like Jim Ruth at the CSO at Etna said, you know, he said, look, we're going to solve these problems in a way. And he said, I'm not even a computer science major. I'm a history major and I'm running Etna's security practice. And his point was, as a history major, civilizations crumble when trust crumbles. Okay, so trust is a huge issue. So trust on the government, trust on the systems, trust with email. So he's looking at it and saying, hey, I want systems that don't erode trust because the civilization of the world will just disintegrate. So trust is a big factor. These are the new things that the best minds have to solve. I think the other thing that really important topic that came up is public policy. And there was a discussion on sort of the, you know, hacktivists versus state sponsored terrorism. And so the payload or the signature of a hacktivist malware is dramatically different than that of a state sponsored, you know, initiative. State sponsored initiatives are much more sophisticated and much more dangerous. And so Robert Gates, when he was on theCUBE, brought this up and he said, listen, we have the best technology in the world, the best security in the world. And we apply that largely for defense. And he said, we could go on the offensive. He said, the problem is so can everyone else. And we have as a nation a lot more to lose. So when we talk about Stuxnet earlier, Stuxnet basically was your tax dollars at work, getting into the hands eventually to the bad guys who then used that to come back and say, okay, we can attack critical infrastructure, U.S., so you better be careful. It's bigger than that though, Dave. That's one, that's old point, which is a good point. But Stuxnet was the beginning of a movement that state sponsored actors were doing. In the old days, a state sponsored actor in Iran case came from a state sponsor. They revealed their hands and their hacks a little too early and we could counter that. But if you look at the specific attacks over the past 15 years, if a state sponsored attack on the U.S. was happening, it was there, they had to show their hand. That's different now with, with WikiLeaks and a public domain, states can still remain anonymous and saying, it wasn't us and point to these organizations by democratizing hacker tools.  Their signature's not even on it. So by democratizing the hacker tools increases the number of people that could attack the U.S., and so the state sponsors aren't even doing it. Well, so Jim Routh talked about WannaCry and NotPetya, which were generally believed to be ransomware. And he said, no, they weren't ransomware. They only collected about 140,000 from that in U.S. dollars. They were really about state sponsored political acts. I don't know, sending warnings. We're going to ask him about that when he comes in the queue. All right, we've got a big day here at New York City here for CyberConnect 2017 and it's the inaugural event presented by Centrify. All the top leaders in the industry and government are here. Solving the problem, the crisis of our generation, cyber attacks, security, both government and industry coming together. This is theCUBE. We'll be back more live coverage after this short break.


Welcome to this series of morphological videos. In the 1980s Liz Selkirk proposed a compositional structure of words in terms of heads and modifiers. Even though this implies a strict separation between inflection and derivation, this method has turned out to be useful for the analysis of present-day English derivatives and this is what I'm going to show. I will analyze the present-day English derivative carelessness and this will be the result, a morphological tree. But how do we arrive at such a structure? Well let's build this morphological tree step by step. Now before you start you should prepare well. Take an empty sheet and write the word that you want to describe compositionally at the bottom of that sheet and leave sufficient space above it and then you can start. The first step is certainly a simple morphological analysis that is the analysis of the derivative in our case carelessness into its base form and its affixes. Step 2 is to assign word classes categories to each morph. Now the affixes less and less are associated with inherent word classes that is with those word classes that they will generate when they are added to a base form. Less turns nouns into adjectives so it is marked A, less turns adjectives into nouns so it is associated with the word class noun. So now we can start with the base form which is care and combine it with an affix to its left or right that results in a suitable word form. If you're not sure whether such a form exists you can always consult corpora such as the British National Corpus for example. So the only affix which we can find to the right of care is careless so in other words this is the branching structure and now we have to think about a syntactic feature that is the category that is assigned to the new mother node. To do this we have the percolation conventions that were defined in the 1980s by Liz Selkirk. Well here they are. Rule one is pass the features of the affix up to the first branching node and rule two if a branching node fails to obtain features well then we take the features of the second daughter of this new mother node. In our case it is relatively simple. We can apply rule number one and pass the features of less to the new mother node and now we have a new base form. The new base form is careless and we can combine it with another suitable affix. There is only one so in other words we have this structure now well and again we can assign the syntactic features that is the categories of the affix to the new mother node and again rule number one applies we can simply take the percolation conventions and apply rule number one which passes the features of the affix to the new new branching node. Okay so carelessness is a noun. That's it. There are more complicated cases though so stay tuned for my analysis of those and by the way the print version of this solution is available in the VLC lecture library as usual and more than 50 trees of this kind can be found in the morphological practicals that are used on the virtual linguistics campus. Thanks and see you again.


Hello everyone, I'm going to talk about fully dynamic group encryption, message filtering, and code-based instantiation. It's a joint work with Kua Yuan, Rihanna, Sufei, Yinani, Yuli, Suxila, Huasheng Wang, and Ye Hongxu. First, I will recall some background on group encryption and discuss the limitations and our motivation. Then I will state our three contributions, fully dynamic group encryption, message filtering, and code-based instantiation. Besides, I will describe the techniques at last in summary. So let me start with group encryption. Group encryption was introduced by Kiannis, Suanis, and Yong in 2007. It is the encryption analog of group signatures. There are four parties involved, the sender, the receiver, the group manager who manages a group of receivers, and also there is an opening authority and who is capable of identifying the recipient of the ciphertext. Group encryption allows sender verifiably encrypts messages and to certify group members while keeping the anonymity of the receiver. More formally, group encryption allows encrypting while the following holds. First, the ciphertext is well formed and can be decrypted by some registered group members. Second, the opening authority can identify the intended receiver. Third, the plaintext satisfies certain requirements such as being a witness for some public relation. Group encryption scheme have many appealing privacy preserving applications. Natural application is for encrypted email filtering. It allows a firewall to accept only rows incoming emails that are intended for some certified organization user. It can also find interesting applications in anonymous trusted parties and previous retriever storage systems. Now, let me briefly review some previous works on group encryption. In 2007, KTY introduced the model of group encryption. They also provide concrete instantiation based on the number theoretical assumptions. Two years later, Katler et al. proposed non-interactive realization based on pairings in the standard model. Subsequently, Amelia and Joey presented various efficiency improvements for pairing-based group encryption. Libertat et al. proposed a refined tracing mechanism and enriched the KTY model. In 2017, the first construction from lattice assumptions was presented by Libertat et al. But so far, the group encryption has been much less well-studied and we aim to contribute to the development of group encryption given its compelling features and nice application. Now, we will identify several limitations of existing group encryption schemes. First limitation exists in user revocation. The KTY model, they allow the dynamic enrollments of new users to a group but it does not provide any mechanism to prevent revoked users from equipping new self-protects intended for them. Even though these revoked users were expelled from some misbehaviors or just they already retired from the organization. So formal treatment of fully dynamic group encryption is fully desirable. The second limitation is about the usefulness of existing group encryption in the context of email filtering which we have mentioned as the most natural application. In all known instantiation of group encryption, the relations for message are defined according to the computationally hard problems. For example, the discrete log relation is implied in KTY model for message filtering. And this treatment fit the definition of group encryption. But in our real life, it is hard to sample the witness, satisfy the relation. So commit design group encryption with expressive policies instead of using some hard problems. Third, regarding the diversity of concrete computational assumptions used in constructing group encryption Among all existing schemes, the only one that is known to be content-resistant is the lattice-based construction from Librelet O. And this raised the question of realizing group encryption based on alternative content-resistant assumptions such as can we construct code-based group encryption scheme? So in our work, we have three contributions. First, the formalization of fully dynamic group encryption. And second, we realize message filtering with two expressive policies. And third, we construct the first code-based group encryption scheme that follows our fully dynamic group encryption model and supports both of the two message filtering policies. Now I will go to the first contribution of fully dynamic group encryption. Fully dynamic group encryption is an encryption analog to the fully dynamic group signatures. As for the fully dynamicity, this means the user has flexibility in joining and leaving the groups at the choice of group manager. And also the group manager can update the group periodically to reflect user verification. Now I will briefly introduce the model of fully dynamic group encryption. And first, the open authority and the group manager runs the algorithm to produce their own public and secret key pair. In this drawing and issue, this is an interactive practical securely run between the user and the group manager. And the user can obtain its own public key and secret key. And the group manager updates the group information. Since our model enables the group manager to remove some users from the group through a group updating algorithm. So in this updating algorithm, the group manager can advance the approach and update the group information. The sender can encrypt the witness W for its chosen users in this encryption algorithm. So this is proof and verification. The proof algorithm is run by a sender who acts as a proofer and demonstrates the honest computation of the several texts. And this verification algorithm is run by any verifier to check if the proof is valid. And then the user can decrypt the several texts to get the messages. And the open authority can anonymize the several texts in the open algorithm. And we also define three security notions, message secrecy, anonymity in CCA2 stamps, and songiness. And all these three notions are carefully extended from the KTY model. Message secrecy protects the appointed receiver from a malicious adversary who tries to extract the information about the encrypted messages. And the adversary can fully corrupt the group manager and open authority. CCA2 anonymity in CCA2 stamps disarms to prevent the adversary from learning information about the identity of the receiver. And also the adversary can fully corrupt group manager and we have an honest open authority. As for songness, songness protects the verifier from accepting a several texts that either does not have the required structure or cannot be decrypted by a registered group member. And only partial corruption of open authority here. Now I'm going to talk about our second contribution, message filtering. And our goal is to equip group encryption skin with some basic yet commonly used policies for filtering. So more precisely, we consider a public list S with S1 to SK of k binary keywords. And each of them has bit less T and we need to test against the less T substrates of the encrypted message W. By the way, the public list S can be regularly updated by the group manager, depending on the interests or the needs of the organization. And the keywords SI could either be some good keywords or bad ones. Then we will define two policies, permissive and prohibitive. So in the permissive policies, we accept the message W if it contains some good keywords. Informally, this means they exist some I such that the keywords SI is a substring of the message W. All the messages that do not contain any of these keywords are rejected. And in the prohibitive policy, we accept the message W if it is far from some bad keywords. And in formal words, this means for every length T substring Y of W and for every keywords SI, their humming distance is at least D. Here the keywords SI could correspond to some topics that are illegal or simply out of the group's interest. And also I will explain the minimum humming distance D here is to address spammers who might slightly change SI so that it passes the filtering while still being somewhat readable. So now let me introduce our techniques regarding these two policies. Regarding the permissive policy, we need to prove that they exist I such that SI is a substring of W. First, we form a matrix capital W here whose colon are length T substrings of the message. And then we form matrix S whose colon are all the keywords SI here we have as 1 to SK. We will prove W is a legitimate if and only if they exist colon WI and keywords SJ such that WI equal to SJ. Then this means the message W contains some good keywords. This equivalent to prove that they exist with one vector G and H such that W times vector G equal to S times vector H. Then in order to handle this relation, we will imply stance permutating techniques to prove knowledge of such a vector G and H. And then adapt liberty at all techniques for proving the well-formedness of the quadratic term. The matrix W times vector G here W is square and G is a square. We follow the zero knowledge for quadratic relation A times R for secret matrix A times secret vector R with some constraint. After we introduce the techniques for permissive policy, then we go ahead to techniques for prohibitive policy. As for prohibitive policy, we need to prove for every length T substring Y of W and every keywords SI their timing distance is at least D. So we can see the all pairs of WI and SJ and to prove that all the sums of them we get Z here have humming weight at least D. And to prove this statement, we adapt techniques in length at all and we will prove that perform an extension trick here. First, we append T minus D coordinates to the vector Z and we get Z star. Z star with length to T minus D and humming weight to be exactly T here. Then we have Z star with weight T. The original vector Z must have weight at least T minus T minus D here since we append T minus D coordinates here. At this point, it's satisfied to use stance permutating technique for proving knowledge of fixed weight binary vectors. Then follow the model of fully dynamic group encryption and the policies we just mentioned. We can have a code-based instantiation. Then to design a skin satisfying our model of fully dynamic group encryption, we have a modular design. Then we need three ingredients here. The first ingredient is an anonymous CCA to secure public key encryption skin. We need it to encrypt the messages under the user public key and we will encrypt the public key and the open authorities public key. The second ingredient is a secure digital signature to verify the public key of group members. Third, we need a zero knowledge proof compatible with the encryption and signature layer as well as with the message filtering layer. We will adapt the modular design to the code-based setting. So the first ingredient in code-based setting we can obtain from we use the randomized McAllister encryption skin and the non-linear transformation. And the second ingredient, the secure digital signature. This one seemed not readily available as the code-based signatures with efficient zero knowledge argument are not known to date. To tackle this issue, we replace the signature skin by an accumulator skin equipped with zero knowledge argument of membership. And the third ingredient we use the zero knowledge argument with the instance framework. Now I will introduce the main idea of our code-based fully dynamic group encryption. At first step, when the user requests to join the group, it generates its own public key and secret key. And then the user sends his public key and non-zero hash value D to group manager. And here we use the macro tree accumulator to certify his public key and get the non-zero hash value D here. Second, the group manager first encrypts random messages under the user's encryption key and to show that the user's encryption key are valid. If the user correctly decrypted, then the group manager computes the macro tree route. Well, all leaf nodes are the hash value of all users D. In our fully dynamic group encryption, in order to achieve the fully dynamicity, we will follow the updating algorithm in the end. So let me explain how user location and the dynamic user enrollment can be done in a simple manner based on this efficiently updateable accumulator. So at the setup phase, all leaves in the tree are set as zero. And when a new user joins the group, then this zero is changed to the non-zero hash value D of the user. And if the user is later revoked from the group, then the value is set back to zero. And for each change, the group manager can efficiently update the tree by recomputing the path in time big O log N. And then when sender sending a message W, satisfying the permissive or prohibitive policies to user J, the sender uses the public key to encrypt the message and uses the opening of society's public key to encrypt the identity of J. As for the firmness of cybertext, sender needs to prove in zero knowledge that the message W satisfies the given policy. And the cybertext of the identity is an honesty computed cybertext of J. And CW is a correct cybertext of W. And it computed under some hidden public key and whose hash value D is not zero at the tree leaf corresponding to J. And I will now introduce the main difficulty in our construction. And here we know CW has the form of PK times RW plus E. So it would require to prove learning parity with noise-like relation with hidden but certified metrics PK to well-formed encryption randomness R and E. And a secret message is W, which satisfies some relations. So we will adapt techniques from Libet and follow the zero knowledge argument for A times R plus E for secret metrics A, secret vector R, and some small weight E. Now we are able to obtain the first construction of code-based fully dynamic group encryption. So in comparison with the only known group encryption scheme from post-quantum assumptions from the Libet et al. And ours is more efficient. And the main reason is we use a macro tree which can be viewed as a weak form of signature. However, it is still not practical due to the involvement of heavy zero knowledge argument. Then there is an interesting open question. So can we construct practically usable fully dynamic group encryption scheme from post-quantum assumptions? Last is summary.  We realize two basic and commonly used policies for message filtering. And we construct the first code-based group encryption. So thank you for listening.


Okay, what's going on everyone? It is me, Coach Johnson. You can see I look a little tired, kicking off the new year, and we wanted to talk basically about a couple of things that are going on. So the last few weeks, you know, we're going to put this out so that we just kind of touch base, we're going to get things warmed up, and where am I going? Well, basically I got hit with this idea, and one of the things that's been a really common recurring concept over the last few weeks has been we've done private training, online training, we did group camps, we've done something that we call an accelerator camp, and we basically just kind of had a recurring theme that I thought was really important to put out as we do this, and so there's a concept of sequence when you train the throw, and then there's timing, and if you think about sequence and timing, sequence of the throw is the first thing you're going to learn, and oftentimes you're going to sequence, and you're going to more often than not, the majority of the time it's going to be poorly timed, and why is this so important? So we've seen this, you know, big camps, private training, one-on-one coaching, online coaching, we do, like I said, something called an accelerator camp, where we limit it to eight athletes, typically eight to ten. It's a really intense weekend of throwing, and the common thing keeps coming up. What do you have to be aware of? You want to understand that you are going to learn technique, you're going to learn what the sequence is first, so when you learn the sequence, you are more often than not going to throw poorly, so think of it like a dance, if you were learning dance steps, you're going to be real choppy, you're going to be learning the sequence, and you're not going to have rhythm, and you're not going to be real smooth, and you're probably not going to look super good, and why is this so important? Because the one common thing that we see all the time is, especially athletes, they'll be hitting a good sequence, their training sequence is actually really, really beneficial, right? They're doing what they need to do, but they doesn't feel really great because it's mistimed.  And why is this so important for throwers and coaches? Because oftentimes throwers are learning, they're moving on the right track, and then they jump off track, right? They say, you know, oh that sucked, I threw sector foul, so now what they do, instead of continuing to stay focused on what they're doing, that's going to move them towards what they need to do, they're going to change direction, and that's exactly what you don't need to do. So one of the situations that came to a camp, we had an athlete, and I was like, you know what, that was a really good throw, just keep doing that, about seven or eight throws later, boom, starts clicking, and the athlete's going and throwing much better, you know, throughout the rest of the training. And so whether it's been every scenario, we're just seeing the same thing, it's a common thing we've talked about in more seasons, but as we go into the new year and you're starting to learn how to train, why is this so critical? Because if you don't know what is right, and that you're on the right track, you're going to slow down your results, because oftentimes you're doing exactly what you need to do, or you've been moving in the right direction, then you change direction because you're impatient, and you don't know how to look at that. And that goes back to learning how to see film, look at your video, and so make sure that you know how to break it down. That's one of the really critical things that you have to learn as a thrower. So I had a moment, thought I would go live, we normally post on Instagram, I would post here, just because we haven't done a whole lot on YouTube lately, this will just kind of throw up. But the key thing is remember a lot of times you guys, if you're doing, if you don't know what you need to do, you're never going to get to where you want to go as fast as you can possibly get there. So that's going to be a really important note. So if you have a problem with throwing the disc as low, I see a quick question, I'll answer that, and then I'm going to let you guys go in my hand. It's like shaky. So let's do this. So the key thing just to kind of wrap that this up, and I'll answer a question, then I got to go because I got some stuff I'm going to do. But this just kind of a thought, I wanted to get this out there and let athletes and coaches know you got to be focusing on the right things day in and day out. We have an entire system, that's how you do that. So if you're looking, if you want to make sure that you're improving at the fastest possible rate, be sure to check out irritatethrowsnation.com. Click the link that's going to be in the description. You'll see different programs we have. We have live coaching program online every week, program called TCR throwing chain reaction method program, and that basically is live coaching every week.  So at any rate, we're just wanted to do that. Click that link, check that out. I got more info. Somebody said, what do you do when you're flying the discus low? A lot of times it has to do with the timing and the sequence of the block. What I just kind of talked about today, if you're throwing low, that typically means you might be coming forward too early. That means something's out of sequence. If you're throwing in the right direction and it's low, that's always something I always tell my throwers and coaches that's such a low, that's a low key problem, it's really easy to fix. If there's power on the discus and it's going in the right direction, that's a timing issue, and that really kind of reiterates what the point of this message was today. See Big Dave Lee on there? Great to see you. I just thought I would go quick, quick live. I had a quick note and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to throw this up. We sent out our 12 tips of the 12 days of throwing tips, so hopefully you guys all enjoyed that. I will catch you guys all later and check out the things. We'll have more things, how to stay it down on the finish. That has a lot to do with the start. Remember, your finish has to do with the start. This is what we always talk about, sequence versus timing. Anyway guys, thanks for watching. There'll be more. Like I said, just sitting here at the desk, some pop that I thought I'd share. You guys take it easy.


What's up everybody, Jason here for jasperyscasebrakes.com. We just sold out a little filler for Noir Basketball. We're getting away six Noir Basketball spots with this 2020, 2021 Panini Prism Multi-Pak celebrate number 64. And again guys, first we do the break, randomize the customer names and teams that should be the hits out. Then at the end of the break, we'll take all 30 customer names, re-randomize them in a new dice roller, and top six get a spot in the half case break of Noir Basketball. So let's do the break first. Here's the dice roller, let's roll. Five and a six, 11 times, good luck. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, Abdul down in court. Five and a six, 11 times, 11 times, one, two, three, four, six, seven, eight. Boston Celtics down to the Minnesota Timberwolves. All right guys, stick to what you got. That was 11. Now I'm gonna alphabetize it, I'll give you a quick glance to look at your team really quick for about 15, 20 seconds, and then we'll do the pack filler. Coldwell Pope, Victor Lodico, Lodico Segre de Boi, Kevin Garnet, Calari, and a Dwight Howard Silk with a Nico Manion Green. Josh Green, Miles Turner, Desmond Bain, Skyler Mays, Dylan Brooks, Marky's Chris, and Jonathan Isaac. Now let's switch scenes. Here's the dice roller, customer names again, remember top six, get in guys. Let's roll, four and a six this time, 10 times, good luck. One, two, three, four, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 times, Jeremy, Eric, Sean, Julian, Joshua, and Sean, there you go, congratulations, top six, get in. Another one is in the store guys, you gotta do two more of those, jaspyscasebricks.com, very nice.


They check this out, Mama Scott.  And it was real, the way I read it, that's why it's not best to text people because the mood that they in is gonna determine what emphasis that you put on certain words and the way I read it was totally fucked up. Yeah, we on boss talk one on one, one on one. Yeah, we gon' talk. You never did say what day or what month was this that he, you sent him the money? June. June, okay. And you got, and you say you got text messages showing actual events. Yes, I will send them to you as soon as I get out so you can incorporate them into this. Yeah, because I'm trying to understand. I want you to understand that, I can support everything I'm saying. I don't wanna drag him or nothing like that, but at the end of the day, I felt like I don't wait it for my money. Two times you had to push your show off because of this, that, and the other. Everybody else got paid. Ain't nobody else on here with that bullshit, but all of them are men. Everybody that you paid is male factors.  So I negotiated that night of the show. I was like, hey, check it out. I said, franchise, I don't wanna come to the show. I said, so how much of the slots? Either he told me the slots were 750, but the slots were 750. So I said, check this out. Just let him perform and just send me a thousand. Try to get your way out. Appaid me so much because you already don't say it. You gonna double it back, which makes it three grand, right? But I ain't even looking for that because I know you were lying about that too because you lied about coming to break the cycle.  So at the end of the day, that Sunday, I had artists that was in the building from East Texas, not my artists, other artists. I'll send that to you too. So did the franchise turn up? Did he go? He showed up early, 1130, got choice $60 for parking, was in the building, gave the USB to the DJ. They kept pushing it out, pushing it out. They let the, what's that girl name? Dallas Kiki, she performed, I seen the footage. Then it started to mainstream people. So the other, it was a lot of people. The franchise didn't get to perform. He didn't get to perform. You should have made sure he performed if he didn't do number 32. You know what I'm saying? Like, why wouldn't you make sure that that's done? Cause when you see these conversations, you're gonna understand why I'm so pissed off, right? Because he went above and beyond to be extra, extra, extra. Well, Mama Scott, I'm gonna be real with you. You know, this is boss talk 101. Yeah. We definitely look for resolution. Yeah. Is there any way that that could be resolved?  Like, what will it take for y'all to set your differences to the side? He needs to learn how to talk to people, first of all. First of all, he owes me a public apology.  So that's first.  And then you had the, he's been trying to do stuff with me in East Texas. Like, when can we do some shows?  Your track record bad. Now I don't want to do nothing with you. So I feel like we need to be in the same room. That's how he can resolve it with me. Face me. I don't want to talk to you over no phone.  Mama Scott, I don't think people are sitting in the room with you. We heard that happen between you and even Camp Noah. That story is about you. What did she do? She, you know what I'm saying? I don't know about this story. What did you do? What did you do to Camp Noah? It was some time that we don't go into because I don't want to rip the scarf. I ain't gonna risk it right now. But it's been some time where she came unwound on some situations. And I understand that when you've been hurt. But at the end of the day, like I said, chief, I've been knowing him a while too. And I gotta be real. The resolution gotta be a situation where y'all could sit down and solve the difference because a lot of people in these texts love our chief. You know what I'm saying? A lot of people rock with him. A lot of people when he show up, for some reason Tyler loved it, nigga. I don't know. I'm just being real. It's cause the night he came, it was Finesse. Yeah, it was Finesse cause that's he overshadowed him. You know what I'm saying? But they know the nigga down there. I ain't never seen him come back. Well, he been there before, before that. You know what I'm saying? So I don't think I'm saying anything else. I can't tell you what his record is. I don't know who he is.  You know what I'm saying? Why did you give him an ice? She gotta drink what you expect. We can't do that. They're just gonna pick up, girl. On my back. So no, but maybe for the show, I love to give people the benefit of the dollar. I'm always playing devil advocate. Maybe he didn't make enough money on the show to pay you back the money. He said he didn't. Now I'm going to be honest about that. Sunday when I spoke to him, this is another reason why I'm mad. When I spoke to him Sunday afternoon, I sent him a message cause I was respecting the fact that you had a show the night before and I know you're probably asleep. So I sent him a text message and told him the amount he needs to send back to me because this is what he said he was gonna do, right? I have no difference or no clues, thinking no different. But send your money back the morning of the show cause everybody's showing me the footage. Like he won like a motherfucker just packed in there. They were trying to 60 at the... You know what I'm saying? So everybody knows it's packed in there like sardines or how did you lose?  You did the best in all I need to be something. This is what everybody's looking at, right? But anyway, I'm like, okay, y'all, whatever. When we spoke that evening cause he waited four or five hours in between my texts and maybe I'm waking up or whatever to respond back. When we spoke that evening, he was more so like telling me he took a loss, told me he took $15,000, a $15,000 house. So maybe venue, paying the artists to come out there. The venue was in the hood. Okay, but how much does it cost? I don't know, probably not much. Okay, and how many people he had on the roster? Major people. He had a lot of major people on the roster. And he had to pay all of these major people to be on the roster. Do you feel like you're the only one that didn't get compensated? I don't know. I think I'm the only one that I know of. I don't know. From what I'm hearing, I'm the only one that didn't get paid, you know what I'm saying? But at the end of the day, when we spoke Sunday, he explained to me, I was like, okay. All right, I understand.  He was like, but I am gonna work on paying you back. He did say that to me.  So I was like, okay, done. I get, he said, well, event bright. I don't know what I got on there. And I know event bright funds on Tuesdays. So I waited, I went to sleep twice and woke up Tuesday. So when I hit him up and I was like, hey, do you think you can shoot that back to me sometime today? Then it was the reply and how he replied to me. What did he say? Say, check this out, Mama Scott.  And it was real, the way I read it, that's why it's not best to text people because the mood that they in is gonna determine what emphasis that you put on certain words and the way I read it was totally fucked up coming to me. You know what I'm saying?   And hearing certain people from Sunday to Tuesday, tell me, no, everybody else got paid. Nate, mama was on the dough. The brother was running the parking lot. The family was on the liquor.  You know what I'm saying? Something like, damn, nigga trying to get over me. That's how I'm feeling like that.  I didn't bully you, nigga. You called you a bully? Yeah, that's another reason why I went live today. Where did he call your bully at? Him and the young lady that introduced us talked today. She was trying to get him to pay me my money because she's- So he called on the three way or something? No, she talked to him separately. No, she was talking to him separately. And then I talked to her later. And what was it, what was it? And she was telling me that he didn't have plans on paying me my money back. Hmm. Because he didn't like how the blogs had picked it up.  Like you just gonna hold me. You know what I'm saying?    So what make you think you can do that to me? You know what I'm saying? So that's what really pissed me off. It'd be the underlying egos and the way he's used to handling business. I'm not one of your hoes. But wouldn't that make things worse even if just by saying, I'm not gonna pay because the blogs pick it up. That's just gonna give you more ammo. Yes. To keep talking. Yes. If you pay you, you could just squash it. Before I came here at 11 o'clock this morning, I text him, listen to me. And I said, so you're really planning on not paying me my money back? He never replied. That's when the young lady hit him up. And she was like, no, he needs to, he just caused him more problems for himself. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? So then he got fly with her and was like, yeah, I thought we was good Sunday. Nigga, you ain't hit me up with $10? Tuesday, 50, a hundred, nothing. Payment plan? Nothing. You know what I'm saying? How much you working on? So what you working on?  How much working do you need to do to come up with $1,500?  Why did it even take you to bypass your own city to come to me to get the help to begin with? Then this person outside of your region helped you and you hoe him? What day was his event on again? It was Saturday before last. Okay, so we were in August, right? And you loaned him this in June. He's supposed to pay you back. July. July. And he was supposed to pay you, I want to say by the end of August, so to say, which is right after his event. Yes, because break the cycle was in August. So yes. Got it. I was just trying to get that timeline. Mama Scott. And I'm not even pressed for, I want to say this to you. It's not about the money to me. Because I have, as you can see, taken way bigger losses. But the people that I've taken them losses from, they got enough sense not to try to pull my whole card and try to really get right right with me knowing that you owe me, you going to try to move a certain type of way to keep me from exposing you because you know I'm not lying on you for one. And it's going to shed a certain light on you.  You know what I'm saying? Like learn to talk to me a certain type of way. Learn to talk to people, not even just me. I'm not saying I deserve to be on no pedestal, but nigga, I blessed your game without no hesitation when nobody else obviously was sending no cash apps. So how, how are you going to do that?  I absolutely agree. Like I told you that a year ago, like you got to be careful because people see you as a bag.  You've spent money with all these people. So there's been some times, you just spend a lot of money. You know what I'm saying? Like when you, you talking, you're talking million dollars. Yeah. You're talking easily a million dollars. Oh yeah. So at the end of the day, I get it to 1500 a month, but it's a tipping point. I think you pretty much at your point. Yeah, I'm over it at this point. You're at your tipping point.  I don't, I don't owe you the opportunity to keep renting space in my head in a negative manner. I don't, I'm not going to harbor that. I don't harbor any type of ill feelings towards nobody, but if people ask me, I'm going to tell the truth. You know what I'm saying? So it is what it is, but I don't have any hostility towards him. You know what I'm saying?  Charles and White says not. That's what he said yesterday. He said karma is not real. Karma is real. You know what I'm saying? So the way that you move, the way that you treat people, it has a effect on things that are forth going that you can never even see. The people that are tied into certain people can affect whatever you're doing down the line because you don't never really know who's tied into who. So you need to move in a manner with ethics and a manner that has respect. So people can respect it. We have enough problems as blacks dealing with white people that don't want to see us win. Then we got to sit here and deal with our own people and over us. That is not cool. And I'm tired of seeing it. If you scamming us or scamming people because it's an easy lick, stop it. Yeah, we on boss talk one on one. One on one.


So, WCD. I hope everybody here knows what that means. Good, nobody's running. Right. So, what does a WCD team and software do? Anyone? It's a boff, I'm not going to talk about this stuff. Yay, give that man a prize. Yeah, basically it's the job of the software and the team to produce the official CDs and DVDs that we make in Devian. Mynd i'r cyffredin cydwyd gyda gyda'r cyfreithio dweud i gyd ddiwyddiadol i fynd i ddefnyddio'r cyffredin yng Nghymprifysgol. Ymryddon wedi rhoi, ddim bywch yn yn ôl i'r cwm director. Yn y cwm yma... Fyd pan e'rса'r mynd i amchiad gwahanol am hyn o'r cyfrifiad hynny, ddim yma i yma, i ffg, mae'r cyffredin llyfr yn ei bod yn ddondio'r cyffredin ac'r llyfr yn ddod i gyda'r cyffredin. I have put a huge amount of effort in over the years to try and make the process faster, but fundamentally it is a time consuming process just due to the sheer amount of data that gets moved and checksumed and copied and written and it's all there. We have over time started cutting down on the sets of CDs that we produce, at least in terms of the full size ISO images. We do do the work to be able to create them all, but we don't bother actually shipping all of the ISO images because fundamentally the people really need all 38 CDs for MIPSL.  So we do try to make sure we have the first few CDs available, we have the first DVD available for every architecture, and obviously for the ones that are far and away the most common, obviously i386, AMD64 and Source, we have all of them available, and we also make the blue way images. Has anyone here actually used one of the blue way images? No, I didn't think so. They do work, honest. I've written a couple of them and they seem to work. It's a difficult thing to test, it's a difficult thing to gauge the interest in, not very many people have the drives or the media. It'll take off. Colin? Microphone. Do we actually have anyone in channel as well from outside of the room? Was the intent of the blue way images more than anything else to be able to give them lighter conferences and the like? To be honest it was a case of, I saw the drives have been available for a while and thought, sod it, I'll make one. The media for the blue way drives, at least at the point when I bought it last year, of course, was horrifically expensive. A single double layer blue way disk was, I think, about 15 quid. I haven't actually written a double layer one yet because I don't feel the need to burn that 15 quid. It's probably already the disk will have gone off and won't work anymore. I mean, it's the ones that people are likely to give away at conferences for me anyway are always going to be DVDs now. I'm not aware of anyone who really cares about CDs as opposed to DVDs. Please, if you think I'm wrong, shout, because I'm going on assumptions here that unfortunately we don't get much feedback on. So for me the main target has got to start being the DVDs quite soon. We really cannot fit even a minimal no more KDE desktop onto CD1 anymore. I know. In fact, if people actually start doing packages that are bigger than a CD, it will totally break what we do. So, in return, yes, Phil? One, two. If you're putting something on a USB stick, then a DVD might well be too big. So would it be worth doing pretend double-sized CDs that are pretty useful to USB sticks or something? No. So rather having the CD1 being bigger or something like CD1 being bigger so it's generally useful for dropping onto USB stick? Possibly. Which size of USB stick? Sorry? Which size of USB stick? Do we go for one gig, two gig, four gig, eight gig? Well, if it's eight gig then you just put DVD one on, don't you? Yeah. It's a bit of a movable feast but one gig is sort of throw away money nowadays. Two gig, four gig, eight gig, all seem fairly feasible. Obviously varies depending on how you are. Sure. I mean, actually it is a good question, thanks Phil. I mean, should we be targeting yet another different size of media in the middle and making images that will fit?  For what it's worth, it's a very different kind of target but what we did in Ubuntu was we kept on generating CD images but came up with an application that turns the CD image into a USB stick and does the faffing you need to make it work properly. So rather than having to generate another set of media we just made sure that the CD target would kind of work. Now this is suboptimal in a few ways because CDs are smaller than almost any feasible USB stick these days. So we could fit more on. I mean, one thing actually, well Joey's here, you might know. At the moment of course we have the code for USB sticks that will go looking for ISO images actually on the USB file system itself and then loop back mount them and go from there. Is it feasible to actually put CD1 and CD2 in there and use them both? Okay, could it be? At the moment it just loop mounts one of them? Yes, I know that. Would it be easier to have some kind of application that emerges the two and just dumps it all straight onto the USB file system? Yes, we could. I'm just curious as to what's feasible. Yeah, as Joey says, you'd have to teach after about doing the loop mounts itself, wouldn't you? Sure, yeah. So yeah, a useful thing would be to, I mean, how complicated is the application? Presumably it's a shell script of some sort or... Wrapped up in GTK, KD. We did a Windows front end recently. I suppose it's useful. These are the people who haven't installed... Exactly, yes, I just realised that. Presumably it's all free, can we steal it? Yes. I suspect that there... I think there's a patch set out standing against Di to actually make that work, but... Fine. I mean, what's it going to say? The net install on a USB stick is exactly what we use at work for installing all our machines. Yeah. So actually that might take me on to a slightly different question. Do we still want the business card images? I ask this periodically and I hope people will eventually say no. The business card images. I find them really useful for... I find them really useful for testing Di, but I find them really useful for testing Di. I don't know if you still do, Joey. I've never really found them that useful for testing Di personally. The business card images. I mean, there is media, but I really don't see people using it much to you. Yeah, no, not at all. I mean, it doesn't hurt us a huge amount. It maybe adds about five minutes in total to the build. It's just the extra complexity, it's an extra set of images to watch. And they tend to break more easily than the net is. Absolutely, yeah, they're very fragile because of course the moment that anything changes in the archive it's all broken. So... No one said... Well, Colin said yes, he likes them. Does anyone who counters like them?  I don't use the actual generated ones on CD image. Yeah. I mean, are there any other images that people think it will be useful to have? I mean, I've been pondwing for a while, as I said, we can't fit everything onto CD1 anymore. I don't think... I'm not convinced it's actually worth the effort of trying. What do people think? Are they called CD1 for no one KDE actually very useful? Or should we possibly admit for the first time that CD1 on its own isn't enough? I actually believe that maybe a very small amount of extra application could be useful on a desktop. I've had a look at some of the distribution and some other distribution ships extra packages than we do. It has to be discussed with us sensible, but to answer your question, I think CD1, yeah, who still uses CD and maybe having a system so you can just have a CD1 which is bringing a minimalist x desktop and have something to let people say, you didn't have network, so you start with your tiny X or X session and you have to fix your network connectivity to be able to get the remaining stuff, but really CD1 is so small. Okay, I guess my experience with CD1 is that if I'm actually doing an installation somewhere where there's not good network, I make sure that I bring the DVD to go off and hit the network, and I know that I can avoid hitting the network but then I'm going to get some minimized desktop and I'm not quite sure of the state of it, so I think it would be a lot easier on us on the test all side if we didn't have to really worry about just size quite as much as we did. Yeah. Fans and I put a lot of effort in at the end of last year to make the first DVD more useful, so it will cover all of the tasks for known KDE with as many other languages as we could make fit. Even that was hard. By the time we want to do that for i386 and AMD64. I mean, I do still like the whole multi-arch desk idea. I hope other people agree with me. If not, fine, we'll drop it. The multi-arch desk seems very useful for giving away at events. I'd be surprised if you often find people in a position where they want to use more than one of it and more than one of the architecture is available on it. Yes. To be honest, it's probably becoming moot in the fact that everything is AMD64 now. Any new machines? Hardware does support it. Yes, of course. The Atoms are still i386. Until we actually do multi-arch, the DeepCup side, AMD64 is sufficiently painful in user space that a lot of people avoid it. Actually, having said that everything is AMD64, yes, again, all the machines we install at work are brand new quad core boxes. All the tool chains we get from the vendors which is what the boxes are for are still i386. Right, of course they are. I do wish they'd fixed that. So, okay. Yes, the multi-arch DVD is good. Per, do you have something? Yes, we have a question from IRC. CD1 base plus sum and CD2, KDE and CD3 GNOME. Would that fit? Maybe. One of the funnest bits about trying to do clever arrangements of the bits that go on each of the CDs is I have no idea what belongs in KDE and GNOME. The task cell people have some idea but there's a big flame war periodically because their idea and say the GNOME team's idea don't quite match and so the white applications don't get on the CD. If we can come up with a good way of recognising things reliably, programmatically, without me having to worry about did GNOME make it onto CD1, for example. I'm all in favour. If someone can provide patches or give me a good way, a good description of what exactly to do there, then yes, great. Please, we can go with it. Quick show of hands in the audience. How many people here would actually use ACD? Joey's already said that he basically wouldn't on his own. Okay, fill up the back will. We do have a few. I say use ACD, I mean as in install the machine just using CD1. Yes, fine. Okay, a normal full CD image. I quite often use CD1.  So having all the things for doing a server install on CD1 would be really useful. And it means that if for some reason the local network is screwed or the hardware doesn't have drivers until you do something else, then you can get something pretty useful onto a machine from CD1. Would it be worthwhile shuffling things around in that case make CD1 be not just the base system, but include on CD1 whatever you need to actually get the rest of the system up. You know, open SSH server, maybe even compiler, or is that too much? It probably is. I can't tell you off the top of my head at the moment. If it isn't then CD1 is pretty useless to me. Yeah, sure. I mean should we actually do that and give up on trying to fit any of the full desktops onto CD1 and just say fine you'll need two and three probably. I have an indirect question. Currently aptitudes are installed and recommended by default. Recommended dependencies. And the CD doesn't seem to have the same behaviour. Do we... So it seems to have the same behaviour? It doesn't behave the same way. When you install it from CD you don't have the recommended dependencies whereas you would have them if you just aptitude or synaptics. Is there some... That's only just changed quite recently. Also deliberately the WNCD code itself when laying out the CDs and DVDs does not look at recommends. For what it's worth I think that's a mistake once apt is installing recommends itself. Yes, absolutely. Because then you'll be missing things. Well it's also very difficult to tell apt to go back and reprocess recommends letter. So I don't think that's something we want users to have to do. So at some point in that case basically when we're laying out the CDs I mean hands up to anyone here who knows how the CD code works that lays things out. Yeah. Basically it goes through we sort the list of we work out the list of the packages that we want at the very first things in there are things that are required and are listed in WNCD itself. So we know that we must have a couple of packages at the front just because it breaks dependencies otherwise. Then we go through whatever tasks that you have defined and so we pull in a basic set and that can obviously for the official CDs is a fairly obvious thing straight from Task Cell. It can also if you're running WNCD locally include whatever the hell else you like and then if you do a full complete build it will then pull in all of the information from all the packages files and will sort all of the packages it knows about so the dependencies are met as well as possible. So you should never end up with the dependencies for something on CD4 or actually on CD7 it's sorted appropriately. The moment we start having to take recommendations into account the only sensible thing we can do is treat them as dependency in terms of how we lay out the CDs. I have no idea how much that's going to break things. We certainly found in Ubuntu it blue things up a reasonable amount it wasn't it wasn't completely unreasonable but it did require some. I'm still very happy it must be said how well we do cope with the dependency sorting and the fact that aptitude whatever do the right thing in terms of they know which packages you want and where they are so you only have to feed each disk once. I was horrified to play with a Fedora install quite recently while watching somebody else at work do it and it's shuffling disks like crazy. Why? It's not hard. Well I don't think it's hard we manage it so it can't be that hard. At some point again I guess we will need to start thinking about recommendations as though that depends that is probably going to utterly destroy any chance of putting a useful graphical desktop on CD1. Just a heads up I hope nobody here is going to disagree with that. Are you going to argue? Peta? Yes Yes Yes Absolutely Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes I agree, absolutely. Again I hope somebody is taking notes about all this because I'll have forgotten who you are and what we spoke about in about 20 minutes. So I recommend going in people still like CD1 but I honestly don't think it's going to work well for desktop for much longer. Is it worth still trying to make it that happen or do we admit failure or is that something we should do the numbers for once we want to remove to recommend? Possibly I mean, it would possibly be worth going with a lightweight desktop, yes. We already have the third option for CD number one which is to have the LXDE slash XFCE and that works quite well. You have a lot more other packages on the CD because you don't have so much I hesitate to call it crap but you don't have quite so much other stuff just needed for the desktop. That might work for initial CD1. We'll have a look. If we move to recommend, is that going to take more or less than four months to fix? That's a very good question. I can turn it on tomorrow and wait for the breakage. Fair enough. Another point about the recommend is that having them on the CD will make the CD behave more like the network installation because all the packages are on the network. Yes. What else was I going to talk about? Does anybody else have anything to bring up while I think about that? Are there any particular modifications to what we do that people would like to see? Maintaining simple CD which is largely a wrapper around the CD that generates a customized CD the way it's handled during release cycles is kind of terrifying. Three days before the final freeze there's a new Debian CD out and I'm like well I can test it with Subversion but if there's one change that I missed Apologies for that. It has always been the way it probably will continue to be the way. I don't like making changes just before release but Sodslaw says that there will be something changes in the archive that we've got to cope with in the last week. Debian CD is typically one of the very last packages to be installed in the archive just before the release. Actually if you haven't seen how this works I can tell you that there are possibilities in the sections of the archive even though we told people there are no uploads anymore so we can just hand push packages and I think that has happened to the already more than once. And obviously it's necessary so for my lease when I was a lease manager I said well it's not a little risk for us to do it because we know that the packages have been properly tested, we have some things and if it breaks well it's deeper out anyway so yeah. Most of the Debian CD changes are most of the very let ones are task changes aren't they? That kind of thing yes. Would it be worth considering moving that out of the source code and making it a property set in the archive exported in the packages files rather than done in tasks just to try to reduce the amount of changes. Well in fact as time has gone on we actually again one of the things that Franz and I put a lot of effort in just before the end of last year was we finally got away from we tried to get away from using the task cell stuff shipped in the package so we generate as much as we can automatically of course we do want to make sure you can't win here we then also wanted to make sure that the stuff that was in the package matched closely what actually shipped in Lenny so people without net access without everything could generate similar looking CDs afterwards. Sorry I had a separate question about the publishing that we do we do things like bit torrent tracking CDs don't we? How do we find the tracker software that's used?  We've found that it's all dreadful Yes it really is. Is there anybody working on anything that is not permanently sucky? Yeah we found especially doing the Lenny release that we got a whole load of friendly people all over the world with nice fast connections and we told them yes please help seed. The tracker fell over. Then the tracker fell over or all these people yes we're running cedars and the cedars just would randomly get bored and stop doing anything and nobody understands why and it's just crap. Is this worth a summer of good idea for next year? Oh god yes. Right one that is not dreadful. Or if anyone knows of anyone who is working on a good torrent infrastructure code please God encourage them. We deliberately generate as part of the weekly cd build and also obviously of the official beaters and releases we deliberately make sure now that we generate a torrent to go with everything we generate zed sync files scattered all over basically whatever we can do to help people download stuff without hammering or bandwidth totally is good. If there's anything else that we could do there I'm willing to listen. I know I have had metalink folks talk to me several times do you have any experience of that? We had people wanting metalink for Windows best downloaders apparently it works better. We did start generating them we avoided most of the really scary features of metalink it has several kind of server hammering features like opening multiple connections of all sorts of things. So we arranged for that I think you can turn most of that off in a metalink file we just gave it a really simple file that's essentially just a wrapper on bit torrent that seems to work okay from what I understand but it is a bit of a pen that could just be using the torrents. Sure. Do you have a question? What do you think about adding the translation file to the CD? I understand that there are some size issues for the CD but there are also other media like DVD just for information the whole BZ2 file that's 7 megabyte currently per language. No no no the full list is currently 7 languages and the German one is 1.2 okay cool and there are 30 languages. Sure I remember you asking this before we did Lenny and saying yes I'll have a look and I failed I'm sorry I was crap. There are also some tiny issues there. I would really like to put the translated packages package data on to each of the CDs and DVDs as well. It's a little bit more complicated than just dropping the existing translated file. Again I'll describe a little bit why the way that we build up a CD these days is we actually generate a temporary ISO image just to size things. We then go through and iterate through adding packages guessing how big it's going to be and then periodically actually generating again the ISO image just to test the size keep going keep going keep going so when we add a new package we have to make sure that it's available for the architectures in the white order and Ditto source is considered an extra architecture there but also this is there probably more detail than you need the other thing that goes on along with the package is it's entry in the packages file and then of course we have to recompress the packages file to make the packages.gz the packages.bz2 don't know if we'll actually do the bz2 or not if we want to do the translations to match of course we will then have to go through and add the equivalent entry in each of the language versions when the way that we know that a CD is full is that suddenly is that we had a package that doesn't fit anymore and so we actually have code and I'm really it's horrible nasty code I wish somebody could would volunteer to come and have a look but my pearl isn't very good once we actually overflow and know that a CD is too full we actually go back and undo it all we remove the package we remove the packages entry so we'd have to do the same thing in all of the different languages as well that was why I said yes we'll do it and then went quiet it may sound like a horrific way of doing things but what we used to have was a real problem where we would get up front what would fit on a CD we'd get up front what would fit on a CD we'd get right to the end of the process and say oh crap it doesn't we used to just have hard coded fudge factors we did and it was always total guesswork we'd end up with a CD that might be a megabyte bigger than what we'd be happy with do we don't we because of course if you're doing a very large set of CD images you only realise at the end of the run that CD17 doesn't look the right size if you want to redo things you then end up got to tweak a fudge factor or tweak your maximum CD size and rebuild the entire set that just does not work at all anymore because going back to the woody days for example we ended up on some of the point releases spending an entire week tweaking the CD sizes to make sure that none of them was too big but to try and avoid having the 35 megabyte image on the end that just would be a total pain so one of the reasons why I moved over to the sizing by doing genizer image for WNCD for version 3 was to move away from that we can now know exactly how big a blank CD is exactly how big a blank DVD is and we can test the sizes of what we've built against those and we know exactly is it going to work or not if you look at the sizes of the typical CDs on CD image you'll see that most of them are within a megabyte full obviously that means that over 35 CDs the chances are we've just saved somebody a blank we've saved somebody from having to carry out around an extra CD and of course the more packages we've got the more important it is to pack them in tightly yeah it's hard if somebody wants to repair patches for the translated package descriptions and stuff that would be wonderful I think we already have a script which can receive a package files and provide a translation file for matching this packages file okay that would be cool something I can attach to Berg cool now again for performance reasons we don't go looking up the details of outage package as we're running we actually in WNCD in the middle of the dirty great lump of pearl that lays out the images we suck in the entirety of the packages file up front so all we're doing is just writing out data that we already have in memory we will end up having to basically have an array of those one for the main one and I guess another entry for each of the translated descriptions maybe ah am I dying right can you hear me again yeah sounds good um what else yes um jig do stuff do people still find it useful I hope so yeah good okay I mean have you guys actually moved over to the new WNCD yet or are you still doing really really old stuff we unfortunately haven't and this is because I haven't figured out how to cope with the subversion to get switch for our vision control yet um we will get there subversion to get ages ago we're on the last code just before it moves to subversion we're not in yet oh okay fine just but I'd love to move to get pick your pair of vision control systems fine okay so we have to cope with that I'd really love to but it's been somewhere in the pile yeah I know it doesn't bite us all that badly because we are stressing the we don't have these you know 20 CD sets and so we can essentially afford to deal with it it is a bit of a pin but but it's tolerable so um sizing is going to become even more important if we're going to go for recommend if we're going to go for translated package descriptions um we're about to kill cd1 I don't think it's going to work for much longer so at that point actually coming up maybe even with a hand picked set of packages that we really want on cd1 and then we lay out beyond that it's probably going to have to happen again so if we can get the di folks to allow us to have more than one eyes of image on a USB stick or if we can go for the Ubuntu style you know we lay things out on the first couple of images I mean back in the dim and distant past when I first started on the Debian CD 3 stuff you might remember this was back in like Helsinki my plan was very much that we would include in the Debian CD package a tool to allow you to pick out an existing image that's already downloaded and basically roll back the last few packages that went on so you could make yourself extra space to put on whatever else you wanted I haven't got that I don't know if I ever will well all of the information that you need to be able to do that should be on the CD it's just a case of doing it if anybody is really looking for something to dive in but I don't know would this be useful for the CDD stuff or not talking about freeing up a little space at the end of the disk to put other junk in yes most of the stuff that simple CDD uses is already in packages sure oh absolutely there's like a few scripts or something oh yeah, no what I'm saying is it's not necessarily just adding whatever random files onto the CDD you want but it could be specifically we've gone through and filled up the entire CD image with packages but you may want to roll back the last 20 to add on specific packages say for Debbie and Edu or for whoever else has their own set of packages I mean I don't know if it's useful or not if it's just pying the sky idea but it does mean you could start off with an official CD and then just tweak the very last few things on it or do you believe it will not be useful because we need to change completely the list of packages on the CD fine, okay in that case I'll stop beating myself up about it the jiddo stuff people say is still useful one of the things that I'm going to be doing when I was going to do this week yeah like I was going to get the time is moving or at least porting over the jiddo generation code that is currently in CDR kit into oh the little not libcdio the libburn yes there is an ISO image generating program to go with that and really onewing off topic slightly speaking as one of the upstreams of CDR kit I would like to see it go away and actually throw away all of the shilly related code we have in the archive how well does libburn work for these niche stuff like HFS hybrids I knew you were going to ask that at the moment they just don't it's a hard problem I mean to be honest isn't it effectively a mess yeah it is are people aware of do people know what we mean by HFS hybrid I'll explain briefly basically if you want your CD to boot on a mac if you want all the long file names and various other bits and pieces to work on a mac you can't just use ISO9660 like you can for the rest of the world you've also got to put a whole extra parallel set of file system descriptors in the disk that make it look a bit like HFS it's not quite HFS really but if you squint and look a scant at it yes it comes out looking much the same so Macs will deal with it I wish they just give up and do something portable I don't know if so that was for the ppc mac world I don't know if this has changed since last time I looked at Intel Macs it's may have done but when I last looked at Intel Macs you still couldn't boot straight off ISO9660 you had to have HFS plus hybrid and nothing that I know of does I don't even know of the software to generate a bootable HFS plus image at all let alone a hybrid please God well somebody's going to slap them till they stop doing this shit if you crawl dfi in weird way something you can eventually get a boot off ISO but it doesn't really like it so basically the problem is this was first a problem for us with m68k we had to do all kinds of horrible and mobile things to the image to make it boot on m68k macs, amigas and ataris to be honest the 68k had gone away as far as we're concerned we stopped making images for it a while ago but of course as Apple moved on to power pc this means that every image that we created for power pc has HFS hybrid options turned on A that means that it slows down the generation code a lot the source code for doing the HFS hybrid inside mkfs both the old version that we've ported from and still in current versions is utterly shit it really is when you start generating large images when we first started doing dvd images I called so many crashes in that code it was untrue the reason that we haven't generated any blueway size images to go on power pc is because that code just fails isn't that just I seem to remember there's a knob that says you need to make the HFS file descriptor table this big in the end it came down to that yeah but if you actually have to look at the code inside though that does it but four years ago it ends up with cursing it goes through as you generate your HFS hybrid descriptors the size of various lumps inside the HFS volume area I think I forget the exact terminology changes so as you get a larger and larger image and you start growing things you can end up spending whole minutes inside genizer image just calculating the sizes of that stuff so the power pc dvds take about four times as long to make as the i386 ones do for exactly this reason it's nasty so I would love to just give up on it and I was hoping that Apple would have seen sense with the new intel based stuff but apparently not but it's not like there's anything we can do with it like I say I last looked at this relatively it was a year or so after intel max came on the scene and it was still very early days you had to they didn't ship with bootcamp but default yet at that point so it is possible that the universe has become a little more since then fine sure I mean so along with the jig do patches that went into macaws of fs at the time there's also a whole load of stuff in there to support booting from several of the other architectures I know Steve Langershire got involved with that even more so which is how we managed to end up with the hybrid HPPA IA64 alpha CD they actually all need pointers in the first boot block pointing to various files on the disk but we actually worked out a way where we could interleave that those pointers without confusing anyone and oh it's horrible but it does work but as macaws of ffs and now gen iso image frankly are going away as far as I'm concerned they're legacy only somebody somewhere is going to have to forward port a whole load of that code into and I'm going it's really crap I can't remember the name of the Libburn attached iso image tool nor can I sadly there have been bugs filed against Libburn asking for HFS hybrid support for about three years I think so we probably just need to somebody needs to do it pay the Libburn upstream or something like that so I can't really imagine anyone else is going to do the porting of this, of all of the jigg do kerfn whatever so that was my work plan for this week and then people got me to do all the talks and it's all your fault so that I'm hoping might happen before squeeze but it does need me to spend a couple of weeks on porting over that code and I'm hoping that the Libburn back end is reasonably portable and is nice and easy to follow please any other questions any other comments, any other ideas really? Regarding the bootloader for E386 or AMV64 just any about having language multi-language support or improvement, maybe something about being able to display hyper-screen on the front page are there any progress on my stream to be able to help with that and that's what we were talking on Dash Boot recently about doing a Facebook front screen since that's now actually supported by Cislinux or by Cislinux upstream so that would give us that kind of ability I'm not quite sure where it sits between the installer and WNCD it's somewhere in the grotty intersection the way that we currently handle the configuration files for Cislinux is a bit scary let's be honest the DI folks have a whole load of different snippets of config for working with the graphical menus and stuff that inside WNCD we then do a whole massive set of horrible munging with friends again worked on this when I was with him at the tail end of last year so this is how we can generate a set of menus that will match what's on the CD whether it's a no more KDE or a combination if we want to start doing that with the graphical image as well I don't know I don't know that it makes very much difference what the front end looks like there is some horrible does Cislinux end up doing font rendering and stuff then what you can do is you can get the graphical front end thing to read through the Cislinux menu files and do the right thing there's some it's not quite as easy as all that unfortunately but it's not necessarily utter doom and having a CD it's only mild doom that's fine we can deal with that yes we have a few sorry we have a few questions on IRC if I can find them you can call out names as well to go whether that will be appreciated MRVN will CDDVD1 have some space for firmware or will there be a CDDVD image with non free that's a very good question one of the things I was hoping we would have out of discussion after the Lenny release my own preferred way for things to go would be that we would have a firmware section that we could then agree as a project would fit on the first CD first DVD and then that would make the question moot we haven't had that I don't know if it's going to happen so what we have at the moment is probably going to carry on for the foreseeable Joey put work into DI I put a little bit of tiny bit of work into W and CD to match up and that is the extra small downloadable lump of firmware that we currently have until we end up with a better solution for the firmware and we're done with the same route ready for the next one? PCC asks what compression method is currently used would it help to use something like LZMA compression for what? good question if you can clarify the question that would help we can take another one in the meantime the mill asks if all the IA64 images could print a message saying use the AMD64 image you idiot yes that would be it's something that people have suggested before I don't know how to do it in theory it should be feasible to put a normal I386 style El Torito boot image on the front of the IA64 so if you attempt to use it so if you attempt to use it on a non-IA64 machine then it will print it will just come up with it will run something that says you've got the wrong CD yes that should be doable patch is welcome I have no idea Colin just one last clarification well Colin respond it would probably also help to look through the website side of things and improve things there since by the time somebody's already downloaded an IA64 CD it would probably already print I mean we do the two most common questions we get in Debian CD or in Debian about the images are help why is this DVD only 400 megabytes because people have downloaded it using quap software they're using fat32 and it doesn't work and the second one is I've downloaded a 64 bit image why doesn't it boot exactly as the question as you just forwarded so yes we should really do that too there was a further question which of course I've further option there which I've just totally and utterly forgotten somebody else had come up with some extra ideas on clever stuff we could do with El Torrito boot it'll come back to me probably just after we've finished okay next question just to clarify the compression question was about the devs oh the devs fine, at some point we already have support I believe for using ElzaDemma and whatever yes of course as the devs themselves get smaller we'll get better but more stuff on the CDs yes we like that it's easy to do that selectively I'd caution against trying to do it across the board in many cases it doesn't actually save in small cases or particular classes of files that doesn't save much and you do have to be quite careful about memory consumption with ElzaDemma I'm told that we're out of time I will cheat and say one more point better regarding compressing I think the time is better spent fixing the compiler to make all the same size binaries it used to do in Woody or binaries has been blowing up in size with no obvious improvement so right if there are any more questions obviously I'll be around on hash debbyn cd or on the debbyn cd mailing list if anybody did get notes of all of this please forward them on otherwise somebody's going to have to watch the video and I hate looking at myself on video okay cool thank you very much bye


Hey, hey there dudes, what do you think I'm going to be doing with another Kpop game video? God damn! But today, we're going to be guessing the song by one random word. Yes!  I don't know why I'm wearing this, so we're going to take this off. But, one random word... I'm not too sure, man. I'm not too sure. But I guess we've got to play it to find out how well we will all do. So, uh, I'm pretty, I'm pretty down for this. Are you guys down for this? Cause I'm getting pretty down for this. I'm getting hyped up! I'm hypein' myself up! Let's go! Yes! So, yeah, let's just do this. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Boom! Oh, I got something special with the song, uh, coming up later. Later on in the year. I don't know how long it'll take me, but there's something special coming up this one. Ah, so me! Heroine! Heroine? Heroine? She's so good looking. So good looking. Oh my gosh. I love her music as well. Oh! Monsta X! Oh! Drama drama! Okay, I got Monsta X though. Anyways, number three! It's... Please, I don't know! A-Pink, Mr. Chew. I'm gonna play away this. I'm really gonna... I love this song. Um, but I'm gonna play away this. Number f... Nah nah nah nah... It's a song! I know the song! Yeah, Do-Do-Do-Do-Do-Do-Do-Do-Does-Do Number five! This is Twice. Tee-Tee? Tee-Tee? It was good looking in Wonderland. I'm gonna fail so many times. I'm really failin'. It's a fantasy! Vicks actually not watching it in me, but I like the song a lot Jackpot. Oh newest and newest face This game in my right Mama move you are taught it one centimeter taught it one centimeter taught it Then you yeah, I Love this song so much such a great song. It's the song they got me into my room actually number two So beautiful So good Yeah, I need it do it one more time. I don't know this one one more time. I Do go this one Oh Red Velvet ice cream cake At the face away, I have to think of it. I'm giving myself that point. I didn't want to look I even covered it for myself, man. Ah, he said he's the G Yeah, I Know this song as well Frips. Yeah, I'm a senior by 7th Junior. Oh I'm so annoyed how I can't Guess the song some groups. I love listening. I was listening to Lotta super junior my way to work. Oh Twice Settle the heart shaker I Know it's twice away. Yeah, I was interesting. Oh my god. I was not listening to that one as well. Oh Hey mama, what do you think about that? What do you think about that? Yes, this song is a bop such a bomb. This is the old song. I'm getting to anyone. What is it called? Oh No, it fix I haven't heard this song by FX. I like milk though. There's a good song. I know this song. I got this song Say this is what the thing is. I know this song. I got them. I Actually start listening to Astro about a month ago. I got this song on my playlist You're pretty good and she's pretty good Wait, there's been 21 songs. Oh, this is definitely a dreamcatcher song. I haven't watched any of the music for 17 I love this song. It's my favorite song from 2018 empathy. I should have gone the right bubblegum for I was gonna stay on rain.  That's what I have to say 24 Day six honorable one. What one I wait. Oh, it's how can I say I was looking up there? I don't know this song. I don't know this song. It's a it's a past. I don't know it I know this song see like I got the songs, but I just don't know what would from the song So it's hard. I don't know this one as well. I actually don't know this song by David I See them before I've been listening to them recently. Actually, I discovered them recently like maybe five days ago I started listening to them and I love their voices man. Those two This is a big bang song. I should really get good at guessing Exit we are there we we are up and down. I gotta say up and down Oh my god It's so hard to tell with one word man. It's so hard. Oh No, this is definitely not beatiest big club. It can't be that I'm getting ready for the good correct post That was too easy That's all I'm doing. I wanna be a new man. Just for you Anyway, thank you guys for getting a higher score than me because now I feel like I got a really low score Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. That was actually real good Really really good. I'm kidding. I did terrible, but the video is really well made so Congratulations to you for making a good video where I got a failing video Like I'm pretty sure I didn't even get a third of them right maybe even a quarter or one fifth I probably got around that many points. Holy moly. That's that's that's terrible man I knew I would be I thought I'd be all right at this but I didn't know I'd be this bad Well, I knew a high majority of those songs, okay I listened to like so many of those songs, but I just couldn't man I just couldn't get the freakin guesses or anything like that, right? And it was already annoying people that NCT 127 one man.