older episodes that needed to be broadcast and publish final and got those out past couple of weeks from the 21 convention last year in Orlando. Coming up soon, of course, about two weeks away in Orlando, Florida, final manuscript conference gathering of the decade.  On today's episode of the red man group, though, I want to discuss the make towel community itself and that whole movement. As part of the larger man is fair. This has been addressed on the show before on the red man group. It's been a long time. I believe the first episode ever dealing with it at all was actually pretty infamous. It was with YouTuber turd flinging monkey was on the show. This is about a year ago. It's just a long time ago at the beginning of the show. And that was a big surprise. The other panels in the show, then like Donovan sharp and Dr. Sean T Smith, none of them were aware that turd flinging monkey TF family have to actually say his name like that had actually married a doll, like a sex doll. And it has his own Instagram account and, you know, all these pages and stuff. That was pretty wild. I remember I wasn't on the show that day myself, but I remember seeing Donovan sharp is absolutely like jaw dropping shocked. So that was interesting. DDGF course has its own history. It's pretty notorious with TFM as big falling out and dispute in their community a long time ago. So in this episode today, I wanted to dig into the community itself, though what it is, some of its history, and maybe we'll get into the positives and negatives of it criticisms and stuff like that. Keep it respectful and civil. Steve, the Dean Williams is known for having respectful criticism and commentary in this community. Myself, I kind of have my own opinions, like third party almost of it. I'll share those throughout the show. DDJ though is the one who has the most familiar familiarity with this community with this movement as part of the larger Manusphere. So DDJ, if you can open up the show, tell us a little bit about the MGTAC community and what your involvement with it has been over the years. Sure. I'm well, let me start by saying this. I mean, before Red Pill was an actual term and before MGTAC was a term, we used to have this term called confirmed bachelors, where you know, they were men who chose not to marry, maybe they chose not to have children. And they were just, you know, they chose to live their life for whatever reason. So I think that when it comes to this sort of thing, that's really kind of the genesis of a lot of these, you know, MGTAC ideas and concepts. When it comes to the actual term MGTAC, that was developed in like 2006 and 2007 on a website called No Ma'am. It was a blog. If you actually search for it, there's a lot of references to like married with children. It's kind of a little bit of a tongue in cheek. But there is a plethora of information on that site that discusses why men go MGTAC. But what's interesting is that, you know, from 2006 to today in 2019, what a lot of people talked about when it came to the concept of the MGTAC lifestyle and the MGTAC philosophy has completely changed and in many, many ways. So for example, originally MGTAC promoted three things. And there was actually a MGTAC manifesto. And so the MGTAC manifesto, the thing about it is it was they promoted masculine men, they promoted feminine women and they promoted limited government. So the reason that that's important is because those are very American viewpoints, very American philosophies. Now, as MGTAC started delving into certain things, one of the ways that they promoted feminine women per se, is that they shunned and stayed away from women who were not considered feminine. In other words, women who did not have feminine traits. And once the laws started switching, or people started realizing, I should say that the laws were basically discriminate discriminatory against masculine men, then the MGTAC community started promoting avoidance of marriage, specifically because they were concerned about the mass indoctrination of women who were indoctrinated to hate men. Now, it's important to know two things. This isn't Yeah, this is in mid 2000s. And it's important to note a few things. One of the first things that that I think is important to note is that the MGTAC community was not misogynistic and didn't hate women. So everybody understands that there are a lot of differences between men and women, for example, you know, men are at the higher end of the IQ spectrum. And if you look at a lot of YouTube channels, men are also at the lower end of the IQ spectrum, right? And then you look at women and women usually sit somewhere in the middle. So you usually don't have a lot of women that are knuckle dragon, booger eat morons, whereas you're going to have a higher number of men that are like that.  So when it comes to those types of things, that's kind of that's kind of one of the things that the MGTAC philosophy and the MGTAC lifestyle really discussed was this idea that, you know, we don't hate women. It's just that we understand that there's differences. And we also understand that there's mass indoctrination going on. And on top of that, we don't live our lives based on gynocentric validation. And now for a lot of people, I mean, I'm discussing terminology. So for anybody watching this, who may be relatively new to the hemisphere, relatively new to MGTAC, MGTAC means men going their own way, relatively new to this lifestyle. A lot of people don't understand these terms, but they're still living that lifestyle in that they're avoiding marriage, they're avoiding cohabitation, and you know, they're avoiding women who are feminist indoctrinated. And the thing about it is, is that when you're talking about gynocentrism, that feminist indoctrination also occurs on the conservative side as well. So even though there's that left, right dichotomy, there are many women who are conservative, who embrace feminist ideology. And that's a problem, because feminist ideology is cancer. And I think Milo said that the best. Yeah, totally. And this is like women who are pretending to be like, they call them MAGA thoughts and stuff like that. Well, and yeah, and before they were MAGA thoughts, I used to call them cosplay conservatives.  And then what ended up happening is people realize, look, you know, these women are great for the weekend, you know, they're great for time shares, but we can't have relationships with these women because you can't turn a hoe into a housewife. So what they ended up doing is these women figured it out. So when the men started leaving, first, first and foremost, instead of going right to conservatives, what they did is they got into cosplay. So they started going to the anime conventions, they started going to the, you know, the gaming conventions and dressing up in provocative outfits to get attention from these men. When that's didn't work, and they realized they were time shares there, now they've all rebranded themselves as conservative cosplay.  Correct. And Lauren Southern is a big, she's a big example of that. She didn't go to the cosplay. She went right to the conservative and she was promoting women to get married into be traditional and conservative, but then she wasn't living that lifestyle herself. And enough people ended up calling her out. And then for whatever reason, she ended up saying, okay, I'm done with public life and she was out. Now, but that said, when we go back to the MGTOW philosophy, I mean, because each one of these could be the subject of its own show. So I think that when you talk about this, and you, and you have this conversation, you know, it's important to understand that, you know, the people the the original MGTOW men that were out there, okay, the concepts, the philosophies, the information, many of those things trickled all across every tribe of the Manisphere. And so a lot of that wisdom was there. Now, I'm not saying that that the entire foundation, I'm not saying the yeah, go ahead and ask you, you know, the MGTOW community has obviously, based on what you're saying, what I've already known previously, it's been developing concurrently with the Thickapartis community, with the larger Manisphere, and even with the men's rights community, which I viewed in like my in the mid 2000s, and then my early 20s, I, I assumed that I still mostly believe it was the men's rights community that steered me away from legal, legally entangling marriage. I had like a private marriage that kind of cooked up years ago in my 20s. But it sounds like that might have also been influenced by the MGTOW community. Well, and let's, and let's talk about that cross pollination.   Like, that's his thing. And so, you know, and, and, and so we're clear, I'm not talking about human. So, but I mean, you know, this guy's been around for a while, but so you have to understand that this, this is very common.  He just would not, he would not cohabitate with them, and he would not marry them, and he wouldn't even give them money. He would just be like, here you go, have a nice day. And then there's, there's an element of the MGTOW movement who have a lot of money, and they stay away from women generally, except for the fact that they patronize prostitutes. So, so there's that element as well. But then when you start talking about MGTOW 2.0 and MGTOW 3.0, what happens is that you get away from the MGTOW philosophy, and you get these new cults of personality who basically are trying to own what they see as a MGTOW brand.  So I'm going to just reframe what this means and go from there. And let me just say something about that.  Those two things were super victories for feminist, because now when anybody talks about patriarchy, they think it's something different. They listen to the feminist definition, and they refuse to look at the different dictionary definition. And it's the same thing with, you know, opposition to feminist ideology. Let me tell you something. An ideology is not a gender. It is an ideology. That's why they're different words. And so what happens is with the MGTOW community, you had content creators in the MGTOW community probably four or five years ago that started reframing MGTOW as something completely different. And they reframed it, oh, this is MGTOW 2.0. Look at us. We're evolving. You know, this is MGTOW 3.0. Look at us. We're evolving. And what they did is they did that. And then what they did is they actually shamed other MGTOW who followed MGTOW 1.0.  Now, I'm not going to say this as well. I'm not saying that any MGTOW is or is not racist. I noticed that from one of the commenters. I'm not going to say that any MGTOW is or is not misogynist. There are people, just like in every other community, there are people who are misogynist. There are people who are racist. There are people who were who have these other issues that that basically, unfortunately, we have some bad actors who have painted the entire community of that. But the sad part about this is, is that a lot of these content creators three, four and five years ago, they ended up being so effective in reframing what MGTOW really is that they've evolved it into something else.  The MGTOW community is full of incels. And again, I'm not, it's a word clear too. I'm not shaming incels. I'm frustrated by the incel community because they should know and they have the tools at their disposal to know that if they start living free from gynocentric validation, regardless of what anybody else calls them, they cease being incels. Yeah, I was going to ask you before I bring Steven for his comments on this. You know, as the incel community, a lot of people especially outside the manager, they would lump together an incel community and the MGTOW community. Are you saying that's not the case? I'm saying that the problem that you have is that incel and MGTOW are mutually exclusive. So one of the things that Steve talks about, and it's one of the things I support, and I've always supported even prior to coming online as a kid, because Steve and I are relatively the same age and we've lived in certain aspects. We've lived, there's been some crossover in our previous lifestyles, not individually, but just in the lifestyle choices we've made. And the thing about that is, is that, you know, when you live free from dynocentric validation, free from female validation, you're chasing your chasing success. You're chasing what you're chasing. And when you chase success, a woman's attention is just the icing on the cake. So MGTOW men do the same thing. The actual MGTOW men do the same thing. They don't, they don't run around chasing women. They don't focus their life on picking up women or any of that. They're successful in their own lives at their own, like, like how they see success, right? And then, you know, they've got jobs, they're financially independent, they've, they're able to move forward, you know, in their own life, and they don't worry about that. And then the women just make themselves available. Whereas the incels, the incels are like thirsty PUAs. And I say thirsty PUAs, because I don't think every PUA is thirsty.  Maybe you're not going the right direction, just saying. But that said, what happens is these incels are like, I deserve to touch the golden vagina. And I'm upset that I can't do it. And then, and then what happens is they go, Well, if I want to get laid, maybe I should go to the gym, they don't say that. Or if I want to get laid, maybe I need a job, or maybe I need to show some some form of success. I know guys that were dirt poor catching the bus, but because they took care of themselves physically, and they did calisthenics and body weight strength training exercises, they got they got as much pussy as they want. So it's not about finance alone, it's not about that aspect, but it's about the fact that these incels sit down, they don't do anything to improve themselves.   And they are contributing to the problem rather than the solution. The issue you have now is, is that many of these incels are still in that area where they were they number one, they need female validation. Number two, they want female attention. Number three, they're angry about not having female attention. And so what they do is they reframe themselves as migtau because they want to be part of a tribe.  I mean, the idea of migtau is twofold. Okay, it's one, living free from gynocentric validation, living free from female validation. But then the other half, which is just as important, is you have to be doing things in your life to make your life better.  And it doesn't matter if you're rich or poor or whatever, everybody can live within their means and everybody can move up at least in the United States, because we have a lot of opportunities to do that. It's about living minimalistically within your means. It's about practicing a little bit of stoicism. It's about having some backbone. And it's about not bitching when it rains outside. And I mean, that as much figuratively as I do literally. So when it comes to those types of things, yeah, there's there's a lot of of entryism in there. And there are content creators out there who are shilling certain products directly to in cells and saying, buy my product, you'll be cool. Yeah. So that's a problem.  I like to take the conversation over to me and Steve a bit. You know, we all three of us have been around for a long time in the hemisphere. I found it when I was 17. So I've been around for 13 14 years now. Steve's been doing this thing for even longer than that. You know, over about 20 years or more, Steve. You're muted, Steve. Since the late 90s, since the late 90s. Okay, good time. So let's comment, Steve, about some of the things we like about Mctown before we get into criticisms and stuff. I can say what I like about it is it's a part of the hemisphere. It's a distinct group. And, you know, they do get some criticism and some of it is probably legitimate. But for the most part, they seem aware of like very serious problems today in the West for men, legally and culturally and socially and all these things. So I like that. They have different solutions, obviously, and different outcomes of what they're going to do with that information. But they're aware of this stuff. And that to me is important.  So these guys are not making that problem worse. They're kind of like getting at the sidelines at minimum. They're getting out of the problem. They're not contributing to it.  So I like that a lot. They also, you know, like DDJ is talking about, they focus on themselves, you know, to take care of their health, take care of the finances, take care of their life as a man.  Well, and can I interject real quick too? Just kind of dovetail what you're saying. Listen, let me tell you something. There are a lot of guys in the man's sphere who understand how successful MGTOW men are. And what they do is they start their YouTube channels as MGTOW channels. And then what they do is they transfer to something else once they've made their population and they started getting their pay pigs, you know, so so they're you know what I'm saying?  That's just kind of a defensive term for it. But yeah, there's a lot of guys out there who start out and they're like, MGTOW MGTOW MGTOW. And then they get their 50 or 100,000 subs. And then they switch over to something else. And they're like, I was never MGTOW.  The Red Pill has this too.  You know, it's funny.  The man's sphere is not a perfect term. But I see people content creators, you know, we don't need to name names, but they're turning on that term, not because of the name, but because of the concept. And they're using the names and excuse to turn their backs on this community.  And I don't see, you know, DDJ doing that.  Well, and the good news about this is that a lot of the guys that do do that sort of thing where they where they're disparaging of the different tribes of the man's sphere. The advantages is that usually their wives are pretty available. Yeah. Steve, do you want to hop in and comment on some positives you see about the McTown community? Obviously you and DDJ have had a pretty good relationship on the show. And you guys are both from different parts of the sphere. So I like that a lot. Well, no, no, I don't, to me, I don't I, I, it's hard to say anything good because I don't, I don't under, I don't understand. I mean, good, I could say is that I met DDJ is a good, I mean talking to DJ is a good person. But as far as the the Midtown movement goes for me, I don't, I don't necessarily see anything positive about it. In my opinion, I mean, I respect it, but I don't, I don't, I don't see that it really helps men being men, in my opinion. I don't, I don't see it as a man thing, because it was I can understand that Midtown was going on since the beginning of time. And it was a thing. But like all things in the internet, it's just, it seems like people just come up with stuff and just try to follow fads. But it's not, I mean, no disrespect, but that's just how I see. I just don't, I don't see anything not net. I see that it affects a lot of people in bad ways, because it takes to me, it takes away from manhood to me. It's, you know, it it's, I just, I don't, I don't know the understanding concept or understand why people would even do that. But I mean, that's just my opinion. It's no knock, but it's just, I just, I mean, like well, and let me, yeah, and let me dovetail on what Steve is saying, because here's the thing, you make towers really good for each individual man who does it. It is not good for society. It is not good for procreation. It is not good for the creation of your own family. And that's one of the things that a lot of me tell content creators are unwilling to address. And frankly, Steve's criticism is extremely valid, because, you know, while individual men like myself, we understand that, yeah, for us, this is our personal choice. I'm not knocking anybody else for their own choice, but on the same token, I know that, look, see, so I would, I might, I might be more proactive towards Steve's view. If I did not have my four children already and my two grandchildren and been married twice, right? So I've experienced those things in life, whereas some men have not. And, and I think that part of manhood is, is, is having that. I mean, if we, if we take out the feminist indoctrination of the reasons why men go to MGTOW, Steve's right on point. Steve's absolutely on point. And even if, even with those things, MGTOW doesn't help our society. It doesn't help our community. It doesn't strengthen marital relationships. It doesn't strengthen all of those things. And, and, and some of that's by design. But the reality is that at the end of the day, if we really want to look at it objectively from that lens, from the lens of creating a family, the lens of having a relationship from the lens of, of, you know, of raising your children. Yeah, MGTOW is not good for society. And, and I've said this many times. Yeah, I didn't really just cut out.  And that to me is like a sociological issue. And that's actually one of my, you know, outside observer things. I've never been really a part of the MGTOW community obviously, except to the extent a part of the Manusphere. But the fact that it's existed for so long, and it's gotten so big, I think it's at least as big as the Red Pill community, a couple hundred thousand across like Reddit and YouTube and all the stuff. It's a big, it's a big chunk of guys who are really actively engaged with it, right? It may even mean more than that. Yeah, we call that the stated MGTOW community because there's two types of community, yes, stated and unstated, but right, right. And Pickup Artist community is the same way on Reddit, they have like an R seduction, they have like 300,000, but then you have YouTube channels that are huge sometimes, like simple pickup and RSD and stuff. So it's like how big is it? It's hard to say.  But per Steve's comment, like it's it's really interesting that it keeps existing and it exists for so long. And you know, why is that? I think there's, you know, for better or for worse, there's a there's a reason that's existed for so long. It's existed and evolved in parallel to these other groups in the atmosphere. And I can't I can't deny that that's a fact of reality. It's a fact of life and it's it continues to persist, no matter how much criticism, you know, right or wrong that the community gets. And it's big. And I think there's a reason, you know, there is a reason it exists. One of the things I've heard Socrates say about the McTaw community, one of our panelists and, you know, 21 convention speakers is that the McTaw communities for guys who are like risk averse first they're identifying these red pill issues with women today and so, you know, culture, but then they're more risk averse.   And I do realize in that stuff. Yeah, and I agree with Socrates, I've met Socrates, he's a great guy. I've listened to a lot of what he says he's absolutely great. But I think I think something needs to be said as well is that when it comes to McTaw 1.0 guys like me, risk averse doesn't mean not getting laid. Okay, it just doesn't. Right. What it means is we're not cohabitated, we're not married. And a lot of people including new McTaw content creators, McTaw content creating, you know, the last 18 months or so.  And that's to me, that's a problem. Because, you know, there's levels of risk adversity.  They just don't cohabitate or marry. But then you have another, like I said, a McTaw 2.0, McTaw 3.0, that's like, don't talk to women, don't be around women, and I can tell you, I'm the first McTaw content creator to actually have a female cohost on my live stream when I ran DDJs Inferno, I had a Lily even 32.  You trade. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that's why I would challenge these guys. I was like, well, what's the concept of McTaw? It's don't cohabitate, don't marry, right? And they're like, yeah, I said, well, am I doing any of that? And they're like, no, that's all right.  So anyway, I apologize, I'm jumping in a lot. No, it's good. Yeah, you're the, you're the McTaw rep here. Like, I don't know much about it. I mean, Steve or just kind of like on the outside looking at it. Yeah, listen, let me tell you something.  That's that's your thing. But I think that a lot of these guys out there is, you know, they do these odd things. And let me tell you another dirty secret about the McTaw community. And I say this after being on some McTaw discords. The dirty secret of the McTaw community is that a lot of these McTaw men, especially the ones that are like stay away from women, they're like undercover brothers. They're into traps. Okay. I mean, it's it's it's it's not good. The thirst is real. And so these guys are patronizing trap camhors and all this other stuff. And they're like, Oh, I guess that's okay. It's like, yeah, no, I mean, it's yeah, it's it's crazy. And and they're pretty open about it. And that's to me, that just doesn't make a lot of sense.  You know, so Oh, and to speak to Steve's point about McTaw being a new thing, I agree with him in that prior to 2006, the term McTaw didn't exist. However, you know, I'm 49. And back in when I was 1817 16 years old, I lived in a big military town. The town that I lived in had 100,000 people. We had two seriously large military bases. We had an Air Force base, we had an Army base. And I had a lot of guys that were friends. I had my neighbors when I was 19. I had next door to me, I had a two bedroom place next door to me was a two bedroom place. And there were four guys from first group special forces live in there. And so we would talk about the military all the time. Now the reason I bring this up is because back even in the 70s in the 80s, the military was telling the telling their troops, look, when you just deploy to this base, whether it's Korea or Japan or Okinawa or Guam, or even in certain places in rural United States, you just stay away from these hoes, because they will lock you down with a kid. And then once they got the kid and the child support, they're going to kick you to the curb and the military is going to force you and they're going to order you to sign whatever order she puts up. So these guys, even before MGTOW, the military was warning these these young kids who were young, dumb and full of cum. How to avoid, you know, thought culture per se, because they didn't want these guys to have their lives destroyed. So so you know, even though the term MGTOW is new, this is something that's occurred for a very long time. Yeah. Well, oh, well, let's say by the way, guys, if you want to call Steve, we got these calling 6.059373 and call us up comments about MGTOW, ask us a question. Steve will bring in Steve. Go ahead. Yeah. Again, I don't know 1.0 and 2.0 and all that other stuff. Um, and again, this might not even be about what with DDJ is talking about. But from what I've seen from other people, I won't definitely not you, DDJ, but from other people out there, I've seen that these things have turned into like more like cults than helping helping young men out as far as just because it's taking it's taking the responsibility and accountability out of being a man. Yeah.  You didn't take accountability. Come come with us. And you got you're allowed to hang out with us and we will protect you under our umbrella type. And I was saying you, but I'm saying that's what I've been seeing a lot with a lot of people that's no one's taking a accountability for themselves as men.  Where are you going? I never understood. OK, I love this criticism. I never understood it. Oh, yeah. So the idea of going, yeah, the idea of going your own way, right, is is that you're to live your life free from female gyno centrism. Now, let me let me let me take a step back. Okay. And Steve, you know, this I think is probably an area where because I know you're close to my age, this is an area where you were raised a little bit differently than me, I think.  That's what we were all told. So when when all this stuff came up, we were like, Yeah, that sounds great. This is a good thing. Well, at the end of the day, what ends up happening is, is that the migtail community, when you say, go your own way, what you're actually discussing is doing things in a way that doesn't do the family that doesn't do the kids that doesn't do the wife. And you and you're living as a either a bachelor or you're living at somebody who just dates. So I think that when they're talking about going your own way, that's really what they mean. If and I can tell you right now, one of the older content creators, I say older content creators, I mean, a content creator who's been around a long time. Even he has said, he believes that when it comes to the migtail community, that migtail is not a permanent state for most people, if that makes sense. I hope that explains it. But yeah. Well, well, yeah, okay, see, okay.  We were told all that. But we were also told that as a man, you know, you are responsible for your life. You cannot point the finger or you can blame anybody for what's going on in your life. And and to, to, you know, have a, you know, having a job, having a job, you know, the career and all the other stuff. I don't that to back then for guys like me was not going your way. That was just a way of living. I mean, that's what you're supposed to do.  Standard operating procedure. Absolutely. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. Um, but yeah, but the thing was, but, but again, for us, we were always told that look, you are, you are the, the essence of who you are.  It's not the to it was never the other way around for me.  Now, don't get me wrong.  I take your point and I respect what you say. I think that when it comes to the big top community, a lot of this didn't come up until 2006, 2008, 2010. And then it really didn't take off until 2015, 2016, when these content creators started trying to change the definition of what it was. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And if you know, but yeah, that's what I'm saying.  Yes. That's close enough. Go on.  I wanted to take it here. This is exactly where I want to take conversation. So Steve, you mentioned, you know, the cult stuff a few minutes ago about Mctown and all that. And I said, I've seen that happen in every community of the Manisphere at the Pickup Artist Movement. You know, Owen Cook from Real Social Dynamics was accused of that years ago with RSD. Obviously, we've had that in the red pill space with some stuff. And in the Mctown community, they have they had that as well.  And that was a real cult stuff going on, in my opinion, from what I do know of it. So yeah. Yeah. And yeah. And a lot of people go ahead. You need to finish. You got more. No, no. Well, I would just I just want to say with that that to me that's where I see issue because a lot of these young boys are impressionable. And a lot of these young boys, you know, they they're they're lost and they're confused.  I mean, the fact I was I'm glad I wasn't on that show that y'all had that time, Anthony, because I was not either, man. I'm not about it. Yeah. I see that's where I have issues like that with people like that who are taking these young boys that are impressionable and they're pushing the agenda of sleeping, having a doll and you know, all these things hang on Steve to clarify. It's not just sleep with a doll or have a doll, which is one thing.  And I say this because I think it's I think it's important. Okay. And I say this because I again, I want to I want to be as objective as I can. So with that said, let's let me say this.  So that way people because because I know there's been some complaints. Thank you. If we're not going to shame women for sex toys, then let's not shame men for sex toys either. Now, let me let me also say some other things too. So one of the big things in in the in the community that promotes sex dolls is the idea that you can have an emotional relationship with it. Well, the AI isn't there number one. And number two, let me discuss what the AI is there for. So that when you when a lot of these guys have these phone apps, the guys who are having to quote unquote relationships with their sex dolls, they have these phone apps and one of them is called replica. And what they do is they program it to to say to respond the way they want it to respond, right? So they train what they do is they train it and then it's like a mini game. So you continue to train it and you get levels of training. And then eventually the doll says whatever you want it to say. Now let me explain why that's a problem. The reason that that's a problem is because what happens is this is one of the reasons that I really respect Steve. Steve respects me. I know he does when we disagree. Steve does not hold back.  You got to have guys in your life who are strong enough to disagree with you. If you don't, they are sycophants or they are your enemies hiding in plain sight in your teeth. Their secret gamma henchmen secret gamma haters. Okay. And again, as we know, every tribe has them.  Whatever you're creating an echo chamber. Number one, number two, it's psychologically unhealthy. And number three, you what you're doing is, is you're destroying the possibility of a man having social skills. So like one of the reasons that men interact with women, one of the reasons you don't socially isolate in general is because men who socially isolate, they become insane and they end up dying. And let me jump across a couple tangents that are important here. Can I pause here a quick DJ? I just want to ask you a very simple direct question. Sure.  I've heard this I've heard him accused of this, you know, in other areas, you know what? I I I haven't watched his content a long time. But I'll get into my specific terms. Honestly, I don't know. And that's and I could see where people based on because the thing about third flinging monkey is he is a dry sense of humor.  But but but that said, let's not get there yet. Because again, we're switching. I want to make sure I completely explain this this issue here. So when you have a baby, give me. Well, I want to say something, but I'll go with you. Yeah, yeah. When you have a child, I'm a father, I was at all four of my children's birds. And I know that when you have a baby and that baby is not cuddled and cuddled.  Okay, when you put men in solitary confinement and prison, it has major devastating consequences to men. It destroys them psychologically. They call it solid solitary confinement in many human rights organizations has called this torture. It's extremely psychologically unhealthy. And so what ends up happening is that when you teach men to to substitute valid emotional relationships, whether it be friendships with men, or whether it be romantic relationships with women, when you teach them to substitute that with an imperfect AI that all it does is become your, you know, your your hand puppet that you tell what to say and you teach what to say, right? You're creating a form of social isolation, which is extremely psychologically damaging to the men who do this.  Now, there's a difference between that and pride of ownership. Like, if you own a car and you've spent $10,000 or $100,000 on this car customizing your car, you're like, man, I love this car. This car is amazing. I drive it everywhere or whatever. But you know what? You're not trying to marry your car. You're not trying to to to have a family with your car. There's a difference between loving an item that you owned and pride of ownership and knowing that it's an inanimate object, then pretending that something is there that isn't because what you do is you cross the line to delusion at that point. Right. Okay. I see what you're saying. But okay, like I'm going to give you here's my example. Okay. Anthony is his own community.  Okay. And when we come together, then we form what is known as a red man group of men who are in their own communities that are coming together in the community as yourself being your own man. And I'll form the head. Right. But what I what I what I've seen with again, I don't the two point ohs, I guess I don't I don't know the ones from the twos. But what I'm saying is, is that it seems like some of those things don't want you to be an individual.  It's right. Right. And and and when they went and that's where I get issue with because I think because and again, it goes back to that purple fleeing it, whatever his name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, people like that that, you know, people cling to because people want answers because they maybe didn't have that around or maybe they didn't have anybody around to show them what being a man's about. And what a lot of people do is they have this was called a sheep mentality or her excuse me, a herd behavior. They think just because everybody's following it that it's the right thing to do.  And a lot of people look at these types of communities and they're like, OK, well, because there's millions of guys doing this, it's the right thing. And sometimes it's not the right thing because to me, it takes away from you being an individual. And if it seems like you put makes you part of the cog of that machine to keep it going and not you going. Well, and you and you and you touched on something that I've been talking about now for for a year.  And you can look at my channel and you can see I have a video called Don't socially isolate yourself from a year ago. I've talked about this in probably three or four separate dojo videos. And the thing is that is that you are absolutely on point. This is why you have to have people you interact with in real life. I flew down to Florida. I met Anthony. I met Socrates, you know, my goal is to participate in the 21 convention and to meet these people face to face and to eyeball people. My goal is to eventually go and hang out, maybe have a couple beers, smoke a cigar have, you know, and have some downtime with these people that I respect so people can know that the man who I am on the internet is the man I am in the real life. And I'm just as flawed as I sound like I'm online. So, you know, it again, this world, we're all real here, right? Yeah, you're walking your talk is what you're doing. Yeah.  There's other people online I've actually met. But you don't know a man until you've spent time in his space. And you've seen him through all seasons twice. Now, let me go ahead and address Steve's point, because he makes an extremely valid point. When you when your target audience is people who were socially isolated. And you tell them to continue to isolate yourself. Don't meet people don't get together. Don't don't get in people's personal space and you isolate. All you're doing is you are making men or people. In fact, you're making them vulnerable. And we saw this with the famous Jim Jones poison Kool-Aid. We've seen this with other cults throughout the world, where one of the things they do they even do this with Intifa. Sargon of Akkad last year, did a 45 minute expose where BAM by any means necessary, the Intifa organization, they were actually doing cult conditioning on their people. And they were having them live in isolation under lockdown. So when you isolate these people, and you indoctrinate them, what happens is that if they don't have people around them that they can love who they know who love and respect them in return, they become very vulnerable to whatever you say. And the crazier things that you say sound normal to them because they are so off kilter, and they are completely off the reservation. Okay, I just I want to say one thing is I saw some in the chat room or brand old RJ and burn or whatever name is. Yeah, yeah. Let me let me let me let me go man mindset for one second. Excuse me, gentlemen. Oh, we burn. Let me tell you something, motherfucker.  So I don't have problems with motherfucking women. Yeah, I mean, okay, I don't have no denial and anything because I wake up every day as a man. I don't make excuses. I don't point the finger and I don't blame. So maybe you need to cross the street and come over to my side, learn how to be a motherfucking man and start to tell me what I'm thinking. Look, man, you allowed to think what you want to think. But don't get mad at me because you can't be me, dude.  Don't get mad at me. But I respecting his his choices. I'm not here to tear him down. You haven't seen me be rude or anything like that. But I'm allowed to have a thought.  So what you think? And if you got a problem with me, you know where to find me, motherfucker. I'm sorry, guys, please continue. Yeah, yeah. Well, let me let me kind of dovetail that because I think this is important. Okay. The most important aspect about relationships people is that steel sharpened steel when you have disagreements. What you have is you have a competition of ideas and you have an opportunity to educate one another. So Steve educates me. I educate him. You know, we agree where we agree. We disagree where we disagree. But we understand that that mutual respect is more important than minor disagreements on issues. So I think that when it comes to that, a lot of guys out there look, I was going to do a video about this, but I think it's important to talk about this now. You know, if you read old classics, there's a book out there. It's called Pinocchio. We have a lot of guys online who are lost boys in the era of toys. And what I mean by that is is that these people come from broken homes, myself included, and you see a lot of these guys out there and what they're doing is they are promoting their own confirmation bias based on their own their own psychological damage rather than looking at proven facts, verifiable facts and observable reality. And that's the thing that is important. So when I involve myself in the red man group, when I involve myself with this group of gentlemen, it's because I notice that they don't always agree on certain things, but they're mature enough to understand that the disagreements are not more important than the ethics of the relationships they have. And when it comes to ethics and when it comes to values and when it comes to the support of men, these men stand firm, arm in arm, just like a goddamn Roman phalanx. And there isn't another community on the internet that does that because I I agree with you again, we don't have to agree. But yeah, I had to enter the day at the end of the day, I'm going to treat all men with respect, you know, right into the day, man. It doesn't doesn't matter how you feel. I listen, I respect how you feel. I just stay on my side of the street and stay in my lane. I respect you as a man. I respect what you're saying and all that other stuff. Even if I again, you're allowed to not agree with me, you know what I mean? And I respect exactly. That makes us men. We don't have to agree on things. As long as we keep respecting each other, that's all at the end of the day. Absolutely. Absolutely.  And whether the panel is the three of us, whether it's Drew, whether it's George Bruno, we all understand this. But there's a lot of people out there, right? That, you know, they need, they need a framework to say, okay, I need some assistance with masculinity, because there aren't enough men raising their kids. Now, we may disagree as to why that is. But the reality is, is that the fact is, is that male multi-generational mentorship does not exist in families anymore as a general rule. Now, there are many families that have it. There are many rejects. The idea is probably, I think that's probably one of the main sociological reasons that the, that the man is fear itself exists. Yep.  This whole thing forming, it's a result of that falling apart, extended families and the nuclear family and relationships and the sexual marketplace, they're falling apart at the seams. It's in freefall collapse today.   Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And let's and the first Steve's point on your point, it is really good that each community in the man is fear sub community has ethical, strong men leading it. And it needs to be that way. And I think that's, I mean, that's what I've been going through in the red hook community and stuff like that recently. But DDJ did this like a year ago with TFM.  As far as I'm concerned, as far as I've heard from a lot of people that look at his stuff. I know Dr. Sean T Smith was immediately concerned that he had a complete unilateral relationship with an inanimate object, a sex doll, not just a relationship, a marriage to it.   This is like those crazy feminists who marry themselves, man. I've seen that news, you know, they walked on the aisle and they get married themselves like it's nuts. And that's well, he has like what over 100,000 YouTube subscribers. Yeah. Yeah. And then let me just say this to you. I want to make sure I'm real clear. I actually I actually, I don't have a problem with sex dolls. I don't have a problem with it, right? My issue is, is when you substitute an inanimate object for an interpersonal relationship, well, now you're diagnosable. Well, you're putting you're making her a Mrs. Man. You're putting your last name on a doll. Okay, this is the point I'm trying to make Anthony. Okay, he's got I guess 100,000 people following him. That's 100,000 individuals that, in my opinion, are lost that are going to go into the world feeling like the world owes them something. I'm not and again, I'm just talking about Turkey. Right. Well, that's why you see that's where I have the problem at because at that point, you're taking the responsibility from the man and you're and you're following the which you were saying DJ the Jim Jones and the doll to me is the Kool-Aid because it's no listen, if you want to use a flashlight, your hand or whatever you want to do to get your nut that I don't have a problem with that. But when you try to make that thing, your legacy or your last thing, you know, I am about the last names. I mean, a one, you know, I feel about that and that really bothers me because what what is doing to manhood is that and to me, I've always said this, you know, we always talk about the red pill and the matrix on other stuff. But one thing we never discussed are the smiths. We don't discuss that sometimes some of these guys out here are really working for women that are declawing and defanging our men, where a lot of these guys are trusting these guys, thinking that this guy is going to show me manhood. But what he's doing is is he's really playing for the other team by taking these boys away from that manhood. That's where I have the issue and stuff. Well, I think that's why D. DJ went to war with TFM last year.  But I think one of the big reasons, as I understand it, D. DJ can correct me if I'm wrong.  Well, let me let me let me be abundantly clear because because I know that like there were a lot of people out there that have reframed everything that I've said, right? They watch they watch the they watch the 30 minute video they watch the couple follow up videos. And and then what they did is they they acted as though those videos didn't exist. They acted as though the evidence presented in those videos, the screenshots in those videos, the communications in those videos didn't exist. Let me say something right now. When I wrote my book, the feminist lie was never about a quality hashtag show alert number one on Amazon, right? I've sold probably over 15,000 copies of that book since May of 2017. I had feminists trying to dox me left and right. I had feminists actually Amazon made a mistake when my book came out and they associated it with some white dude who was a tech author and feminists went after him thinking he was me. They called him some old white rat. They were racist to him.   So he's writing textbooks that he's getting these feminists just witch hunting him. He's going to have his whole life destroyed. So they tried to dox me.  These guys had me. I was temporary knocked off Twitch. They had me they had a strike on my channel.  I had haters following me for nine months over that. Now this entire time TFM's viewpoint on this was doxing is bad. Doxing is bad. And this is like doxing for those people don't know. It's the internet version of rape because what happens is you get swatted. Tommy Sotomayor, he got false police reports called on him when they found out where he lived. All these other things. And so and I knew back in early 2018, number one, someone could dox me, but I also knew that depending on the way things move forward, I knew I was going to dox myself at some point. So when I finally made the decision to dox myself, two weeks later, some guy actually who had information that wasn't publicly available for two years, decided to make a video and go, oh, look, we got him. We doxed him.  But the point is, is that TFM promoted that. And then what he did is one of the doxers, he made him a modernist server. And then I had another guy reach out to me. He was a YouTube content creator who told me and showed me that one of TFM's other discord mods doxed him. So this was a major concern for me because TFM had had such a strong stance against doxing before that what he was doing is not only was he victim blaming the man that got doxed, but in addition to that, he was, he was had doxers in his server that he knew had been doxers and he, and he supported them and he made those leaders in his server. That was number one. Number two, I was concerned about the psychological unhealthiness of having a male-female emotional bond with your doll. And again, I want to make sure that there's, there's, there's a split here because it's a hard line.  I've never been with one, but I could see, you know, but I could see, I could see guys who could be part of that, right? And so I also see where that would create, that would stop a lot of problems.  To be clear, too, there's, there's sex doll brothels in Europe now. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.    But what I am saying is, and this is where I agree with Steve and Anthony is that you should not have a psychologically male to female emotional relationship with your sex doll. That's psychologically unhealthy. That's, that's, that's delusion. I agree.  That's like a guy, you know, doing the same thing with his car, not something I'm doing, but you know, each to his own, right? So that, that to me is not a problem. But then on the top of that, when, when TFM was promoting social isolation, and he was promoting all this stuff, that was an issue to me because it and then on top of that, he was promoting gender war. He was saying, oh, it's going to be hockey mass time where all the men are going to control all the women and da, da, da, da. And, and, and can we pause on that hockey? Can you elaborate on that a little bit? Hockey mass time? So the idea was that it's certain at a certain point when men are discriminated against TFM was, was, was basically agitating for men to rise up violently. See, and, and they called it hockey mass time. And, and so while some of it was tongue in cheek, there were other issues there too. So like my viewpoint when it comes to the male-female gender relations is this, I don't believe anybody in the United States. And I say, and I take a uniquely American view. I don't believe anybody in the United States should have rights or privileges without the other. If you have a right, you have a responsibility. If you have a privilege, then, then both genders should have that privilege. Today in the United States, women have certain legal rights men don't have. And they have certain privileges men don't have. Now at the end of the day, such as being drafted into the military, women are not well, let's talk about it's not the draft by itself. I'm not listening. I don't want women in war.  Who, who is half as strong as me?  No, the issue for me is, is that if a woman, if a man doesn't sign up for selective service, he is automatically barred from a federal job. He cannot get financial aid for school. And he can't vote. Okay. Those are those are huge disadvantages for men across the board. This has nothing to do with the draft by itself. It has to do with the consequences of the draft. Now let's take it to another example. When a woman gets pregnant, she can choose to abort the child. She can choose to abandon the child. She can choose to birth the child. She can choose what she has all the paternity rights in the world.  That to me is a problem, especially when women have 25 different kinds of birth control and all men have her condoms. Okay, but well, okay. Okay, I want to jump on two things. Okay, the thing real quick or turfly if one may tongue and cheat, see that that's no more problem. Tong and cheek to him, people take him seriously. That's what I have. That's right. You're right. The next time. Yeah.  Now, when now this is where the where we have to respectfully disagree, you're right. It's women's bodies. And as soon as there's a plus sign on that thing she peas on, your rights are over with. That's the automatic truth. But here's the thing. The thing is, is that you do not have to get her pregnant. You don't have to have unprotected sex. I always tell you these guys, protect your seed, protect your legacy.  Again, I'm not saying that, you know, things happen. Things do happen. I'm not saying that. But you got to understand the consequences. And that's being a man.  My rights are gone. And that's the truth. That's the for now. For now, that's the truth. I think marriage used to be a solution to that back in the day. It wasn't as bad. But now that's gone away. And men are just kind of fucked. Well, I mean, I mean, listen, I think that yeah, and I don't hang on, hang on.  You know, those are the rights now.  It's not just it's not American. There should be if woman can opt out of being a parent, that's a DDJ, in my opinion, saying a man should be able to opt out of being a parent too.   Well, that sounds horrible, but I think that's best for children that's best for for America. Yeah, it makes women of consequences to which for now they're able to avoid by using the government to steal my money from a father and forcibly take it from him, no matter what, when he had no say, you know, once this happened about what happens to the baby. Well, and let's say this too, I mean, I don't want to dig too far in the weeds here because I mean, this is enough information we can have our own show on this and probably at some point we should. But what I am saying is is it, you know, because originally we were talking about, you know, the concerns about TFM. And the issue is that, you know, those those arguments at some level and you know, at some level are valid. And even if if Steve and I disagree, we understand that there is some validity and Steve is right, you have to mitigate your risk. I completely support that. My concern is is that because the the laws are changing, what is being agitated by TFM and certain other content creators is this idea of hockey mass time where what happens is that these men rise up and they become violent with their women. And to me, right there, I so here's here's my thought process. Okay, let's just look at it free from the moral issues for a second. And I say the moral issues I'm talking about, you know, well, I guess you have to look at them for the moral issues now that I think about. Let me say it another way. Okay, if your goal is to help men, then your goal is to keep men out of harm's way. Now we've part of keeping men out of harm's way is teaching them how to handle life storms. That's important. In other words, you know, you teach men how to protect themselves, you know, maybe own a gun, get in shape, whatever. And I'm not talking about teaching you how to protect yourselves against another man, but you know, against life, right? Guys who are physically fit, they live longer. If they injure themselves, they recover faster. And they injure themselves less guys who are not physically fit.  And that's the thing I think every part of the man is fear has done successfully is it's taught men how to avoid like legal entanglements and getting over by women. We're going to act.  I'm right. So known, you know, world or in the man is fear for accidentally or unknownly marrying prostitute. That has not happened since that time in my life. And I think hundreds of thousands of men that have seen that experience are going to avoid similar but probably not as retarded or ridiculous situations in their life. And the man is free does a good job of that all of it. Yeah. And I think what I'm trying to say, though, is that, you know, the goal of most men, most male content creators, men in the man is fair, the content creators, the goal of these content creators is to help men. It's to protect men and it's to make their lives better. Okay. So the issue that I had and I've explained this publicly before, but I'm going to say it again. If you're telling men to commit unprovoked violence, there and specifically against let's just say hashtag, not all women, but against certain women. And you're teaching men, look, when it's hockey mask time, you're going to go to war. Okay. When you're teaching men that and you're saying we're going to have our gender war, here's what's going to happen when you take it to its logical conclusion. Number one, women will resist you. Number two, men who love those women will resist you. So now what happens is that when you go hockey mask time, not only are you putting in yourself and your allies in danger, you're also endangering other men who disagree with you. And the ultimate way to know that your argument is not the correct one is when you devolve into unprovoked violence. And that to me is a problem because how are you telling these men to sacrifice their lives to enslave women? How are you telling me? Number one, that enslavement of any kind is ethical and number two, how are you telling me that these men who are going to potentially die is a good thing?    I'm not that physically fit. Let me tell you something, you know, I can get laid if I need to.  It's catch and release all day every day.  Some I agree with some I don't. I'm just saying that, you know, resorting to unprovoked violence to me, it violates the ethics of any man who claims he is going to help another man.  That's where I got some of the issues again. These these guys are these guys are using these young boys for their own women will what they want done. And that's where I got the problem at because men don't do that kind of stuff. But unfortunately, these young men, they are they are so lost that they will follow just about anybody or anything that says, you know, if they come up like, okay, it'll be met towel today. It could be pantyhose tomorrow.    And that's where I get the problem with some of these things because that's not teaching these boys manhood. Well, now defense, I think this is why the mctown community. There's been conflict that DJs has been trying to lead the cleanup on the calm doomsday Jesus for a reason, right? And that's he did identify T.F. who plucking monkey as a very toxic negative element of their community. And it's even more serious I think what's happened in the repel community is that it's let me say something it's it's it's way more serious because you have you have organized doctors, you know, many of these Spurgs in the mctown community. I mean, I have screenshots where they have a private server where a lot of these content creators coordinate their attacks on other people and they direct their followers to make these attacks. Okay. If they could compete in the marketplace of ideas, they would they wouldn't resort to doxing. They wouldn't resort to online harassment. They wouldn't resort to all these different things. They would be doing what me and Steve the Dean Williams are doing where that is man to man respectfully agree where we agree and disagree where we disagree and not take it personally and not have to worry about getting some vagisil. So you know what I'm saying? I mean, that's that's the reality, right? Steel sharp and steel. And that's the point that that used to be what the mctown community was about. And when you look at a lot of content creators, there are a lot of writers for return to Kings, for example, there's a lot of guys who've been around a long time. And I guarantee you that almost each and every one of those guys has admitted that they have gotten some of their belief system or the foundations of where they've gone. They've gotten that from the mctown community.  Look at Rolo Tomasi, half of his content is based on what he's seen other mctown content creators do.  He ripped that off immediately and I confronted him about that in private and he just blew it off. I'm like, yeah, I mean, and again, we're, you know, we're not we'll hear me out, though. We're not kicking cucks today, right? Let's just focus on the content of mctown.   Well, to clarify here, though, when TFM and Rolo were on the same red man group episode, it was like Rolo, Rich Cooper, Don of Ensharp, Shaun T. Smith, and I think poopling monkey.   I don't even know which one is stealing from the other one. But I know that I'm pretty sure in the video you'll see them both of them accusing each other of this kind of issue or something like that. So it's, you know, I've, you know, I've seen Rolo accuse that stuff before before I even knew him. He's been accused. Well, and in TFM's defense, TFM is probably right. TFM has been making video content for years and years. He's got well over 2,000 videos. And that's, and that's just on his own channel. That's not including the collaborations he's done with other people. Yeah.  Well, yeah, yeah.  Really?   Well, sure. Sure.  I get it. I'm just rolling. It's like a bump. Yeah, it's an internet bump fight. I get it. I get it. Right.  Right. I get it. I get it. It's like spectacle. Right.   I am here to try to make men better through what I perceive as the way forward. And you are putting men in harm's way, whether it be emotionally, psychologically or even physically.  Yeah. And when you promote hatred, that's a problem. And I want to make sure something else is abundantly clear too. Because if you look at my channel, I do call out narcissistic horse. I do call out manipulators. I do call that out. But I don't call it out because I hate these people. I call it out to warn other men who may not have had the experience or the knowledge or the wisdom that I've gotten or even the mentorship that I've received. It's not to hate these women. It's to educate men to avoid these women. And let me tell you something else. I also coined a term in the Manisphere called the red pill blind spot. You don't trust anything. You cannot verify. And there are a lot of guys out there who claim that they're red pill. Oh, yeah, I guess he's red pill because he's got the he's got the union required beard. And he's got a shaved head. You know, DDJ is really important because there's there's real research and science and yeah, it's not just the red the red pill blind spot. That's your way of saying it's a community specific way of saying that men have an in group and out group bias.   Yeah, it doesn't make you automatically. I agree with you, DDJ. That does not make you automatically trustworthy just by attacking feminism and saying you're pro man.   Well, take these guys down and I agree with you because what ends up happening is is what they're doing is is they've taken the talking points and they've turned them into platitudes and they're sloganeering and they do the same thing like feminists men do, right? So I think that when it comes to those types of things, that's a real problem. And it's funny too, because like I always say and I put this on my my Facebook community or in my social media community, including YouTube, I said, you know what, I don't have haters. I have followers who hate they disagree or the hate they agree with me.  So so you see this all the time. And and and I'm sure Steve Vadine is seeing this. I know that you've seen it Anthony. And I know that there are people who speak at 21 convention, you see this and I know that there are guys in the big town community who've been making videos for a couple of years. They've seen the same thing. So you have to understand that like when it comes to these people that are out there, that red pill blind spot, that that automatic naive trust that wow, this guy says something I agree with. So he must be amazing. And then you'll find out that this guy's got 15 channels included in a feminist channel. And all he's trying to do is figure out which one takes off because he wants to be a professional YouTuber. That's a problem. Guys, we got to start wanting to show down a little soon today. I guess the nose going on. I don't mean enough for you tomorrow. Got to go do something for that. Yeah, for the first time. I'm excited. However, before we wind the show down, I wanted to see, you know, it's open to the panel, but especially DJ, I think because he's, you know, so involved in that community. What's the future of the McDowell community with regards to the wider hemisphere? Is it going to get healthier? Is it going to get fall apart? Like the pickabotch community, pickabotch community, for example, is kind of like it's very loosely organized these days. We're, well, the good news is this, um, and to begin with, we have McDowell guys attend the convention in real life who claim that they're like full McDowell. But they come up. Yeah, I've actually, I've actually met some of them when they found out that I was part of the 21 convention and they found out I was part of Red Man Group. I had guys reach out to me behind the scenes and go, oh yeah, I've gone to 21 convention five years in a row and I know the guys card carrying McDowell. Okay, so absolutely. I think that the good news is this. I think the good news is that the word is getting out. And, you know, we see content creators now that are going back to McDowell 1.0, like, like Coach Greg Adams, you know, we're seeing a lot of guys that are just they're talking about the McDowell community. There's a lot of African American men now that are going into McDowell content.  But there are a lot of us out there who maybe we don't always identify with the brand publicly. But what ends up happening is is that we're still sharing the same wisdom. And you see these guys building bridges. And so the good news is that you're watching the extremists go away. But I will say this. There is a huge issue and I'm not trying to make this a segue at all. But there is a huge issue in online content now in social media, where social justice warriors, you know, big tech agents of foreign countries including China and the European Union, they are trying to silence free speech across the hemisphere. And I think the reason is, is because what they're doing is, is they're fomenting a sociological info war against masculinity. Because if they can emasculate all men in the United States, then it's easier to take over the United States without a shot fired. And we see this with the United States military, because the military is having a hard time recruiting qualified candidates because they're not healthy, they're unphysically fit, they're emasculated, or you got these guys who the only reason they're going to the military is to get a sex change paid for by the government. So, you know, there's a lot of issues right now in social media, because these are conversations that big tech overlords do not want anybody to have. And so, I would suggest anybody who's out there, who's watching this and those types of things, start looking at like places like BitShoot, Minds, Gab, in addition to Twitter, in addition to Facebook, in addition to YouTube. I'm not saying abandon any of these things because the broader your voice, the better it is. But what I am saying is, is that when somebody goes to silence your voice, you at least have options. That's why I created the MissAndreaToday.com website so that when they finally take me off of YouTube, which I expect that at least people will know where they can get my content and how they can get ahold of me. That said, I think that barring those major censorship concerns and those major foreign interference concerns, I think the manosphere is getting healthier. And I think that a lot of communities are taking out the trash. And I think that we see a lot of new voices in the community that are making sense. Oh, hey, I was just playing around with the camera guy. Sorry about that. Yeah, good, good speech to Jim.  Don't do drugs. Stay in school as he's asleep.  Here we go. Hashtag show alert. So guys, we have the 21 convention coming up here, final event of the decade and of the year, third of the year.  The tickets are still on sale. We've been selling some almost every day lately.  We've got about 130 guys coming out to the event. That's gonna be our second biggest event out of 18 in our entire history coming up soon. October 24th, the 2017 2019 Orlando, Florida. You can still save 300 bucks on your ticket off the door price.  I'll be there. Steve, the Dean Williams will be there a whole bunch of speakers like Elliott Hulse, Defend Mollinu, Jack Donovan, Ed Latimore, AJ Cortez, George Bruno.  It's an amazing lineup of speakers. You guys got to be there. Get your tickets now. You have free tactical soap when you get to the event.  Hope to see you guys there.  We'll film at least two to three episodes in real life of the show. They're the best episodes we have of the year. They're super fun. Steve was a host in Poland recently at the Warsaw Poland 21 convention. Super awesome episodes coming out soon on the channel. You'll see those recorded and their premier live on the channel. Well, that's it. That's it for today's episode. I want everyone to go visit and follow, you know, TheManMindMindset.com. You can follow Steve on Twitter at TheManMindset. I believe that's the exact URL. Yes, sir. DDJ is on Twitter now too. He's handled those like Bobby Lewis, something that's kind of confusing. But go to missandrytoday.com and his YouTube channel, missandrytoday.com. I'll link it in the comments. Okay. Yes, you get free tactical soap with your $2,500 ticket. And then we run the best event in the world for men and make zero apology for it. You could have bought tickets for like way cheaper, like six months ago. You gotta stay on the ball, man. Yes, sir. Stay on it. Well, and let me, and let me say this about the 21 convention for those that don't know. I've actually looked under the hood. You know, Anthony and I have done a lot of things behind the scenes. Anthony's kind of opened up and given me a real transparent look at what the 21 convention is and how it runs. The nuts and bolts, the P&Ls, the whole thing. The money that you spend on this convention goes toward you. Okay. Nobody's, nobody is, is, is, is taking advantage of you. Nobody is, I mean, this money goes right back to you. It goes right back into the event. This is not something where he's trying to do a get-rich quick scheme. He's been doing this for over a decade. It's an extremely successful event. Even if I don't necessarily agree with everything everybody says, not everybody's gonna agree with me. I'm not worried about that. It's a healthy event. And this is, this is extremely important. So when you invest in your future by going to the 21 convention, you need to understand that when you get there, you get a return on investment immediately.  And I want to say about that, guys, from, from just being a part of this. And again, I'm not getting paid for this. You know, I keep things 1000 with you motherfuckers. And I'll be real with y'all. The experience of the 21 convention is like no other because for some of you guys out there who go to conventions and stuff like that, the speaker will speak. And then all of a sudden he goes away into the darkness and you never get to see him. You never get to talk to him. You just see him on stage. With this is once the speakers get done speaking, you can ask questions. Then when, then when he's done speaking, you can then talk to him. Ask questions and rub elbows. That's just one part of it. The next part is everybody is treated like, like we're family. You, when you go there, they, they, nobody feels like they're above you just because we're speakers. I mean, we're better than you. We treat you like family. And the workshops, the workshops is self.  But the workshops are none like anything else because they're private. You get to let your hair down in a group and you get to talk. Then you have the dinners and that's what I'm saying. It's layer after layer after layer. So you get your money's worth and then some, that's I just wanted to say about that because if you, if you haven't had the experience, it is, it is none like no other not to mention just the, the red men group shows that are there as well. So I just, I just wanted to say that a one. That's all I want to say. Steve, I appreciate you keeping a real man 1000% on all that. You know, per what DDJ and Steve were talking about, I've been working at perfecting this convention for about 13 years now.  They are the best events in the world for men. I make no apology for that. And there's nothing else even like it. There's other events for men that are really good, but this one is like absolutely top level amazing. It's a gathering of kings. Yes.  And you know, the ticket is an experience. The ticket is not just the speeches. If you don't want to pay for the ticket, you don't want to attend, don't attend. The speeches will eventually publish for free as they have been reviewed by hundreds of thousands, in some cases, millions. We have everything for speeches now that have broken one million views and one talk from Nick Sparks that broke two million views. So if you don't want to pay for the speeches, don't pay for them. I don't care. You can just watch them on YouTube for free to have to wait a while or join 21 University to get early access. In the meantime, if you want an amazing experience and you want to change your life instead of the next decade of your life, the entire 2020s and the next years, you have a lot of incredible speakers. It's a really rare opportunity where they gather together like this. It doesn't happen anywhere else in the world except at the 21 convention.  We have guys attending who are 19 up to like 50, 60, 70 years old.  Well, yeah, and you might go out on four wheels as the EMT take you away. You're going to feel out of place, you know, just to put it lightly. But if you actually care about masculinity and you care about men, you care about fatherhood and you care about the future of this country and of the hemisphere and of all these issues that we talk about in the show, on this topic of Mictile. Gentlemen, look forward to seeing you soon. Peace out. Peace. Take care.


Hello everybody, Andrew Majeski here with Dental L. So a lot of you have been asking for me to show you guys things that I have bought for my Dental L mobile hygiene business. I did see patients yesterday, and I'm seeing more again tomorrow. So I have the heavier stuff downstairs. So I'll probably do a video tomorrow on my cell phone where I'm just kind of walking you through the more heavier pieces of equipment because I don't want to lug it all up here. It's heavy stuff, but I just wanted to show you guys just a couple tiny things that I highly recommend. I just did a video earlier on the new pro-freedom handpiece. I love this. It is a cordless handpiece. I did also get the real stat attachment though because it just helps me to control the power of it, but that's on back order, so I don't have that yet. My curing light, how cute, or not not how cute, but how cool is this? It's orange.  I got one that's orange. This is what I use for the when I'm doing teeth whitening, the gingival barrier that you put on. That just helps to set that, and I have used it for sealants, and that's it so far, but it obviously comes in handy. Nice and tiny, just like this. It's nice and tiny, right? So when you're traveling a lot, it does help to have things that are cordless, tiny, and not heavy. Another thing that I bought was Bucky the Beaver. How cool is this, you guys? Kids love him.  People love that, and I do post about him a lot on my Facebook page so that kids can see that he is an actual Bucky the Beaver. He has teeth, so I like to kind of talk about him a lot. Kids love him. I got this from Maxill, and he's just so cute. Like I have put like hats on him. I've put like shirts on him, stuff like that, so that he looks very, very real for kids. So kids love that. Another thing that I was looking into was different size pouches, because who knew pouches come in different sizes, right? So make sure to order the ones for the cassettes that you have.  You'll probably want something tinier. Those smaller pouches are awesome for piezo tips, things like that. Do not forget your Class 5 indicators here. Sorry, I guess I can take that out. Class 5 indicators, I decided to get the ones that you can peel away to keep them in my log book. There's a yellow and a black stripe there, so if it's sterilized, the yellow turns black. I should have brought up some more small stuff, sorry, but I didn't think about it. Oh, I'll show you guys my laptop. Oh, no, that's downstairs too. I did get a new laptop, because for my intraoral camera, I needed like a laptop that I can plug in the camera with. My iPad, you can't plug anything in, unfortunately, so I needed to get a laptop for that. But the intraoral camera is also the best investment ever, because it just helps to show patients, you know, cavity or suspected cavity stain. I have been using that intraoral camera on everybody so far, and I show them the pictures afterwards, and they just love saying, oh, wow, yeah, there was a lot of stain there. When you talk to them about stains, say the last tooth, they go, yeah, yeah, okay, but then when you actually show them, they're like, oh, wow, you weren't kidding, you know, and it's nice to also show them the before and the after. So that's like another amazing purchase. The intraoral camera, the laptop that I bought for that, you know, and I keep, I do keep paper charts and on the computer too. So I'm looking into this software right now called Simple Practice, because I haven't loved any of the other softwares that I've used at dental offices. They're way too complicated. Half of the things you don't even use, and they're freaking expensive, sorry guys, but they're insane, like $5,000 for a practice management software, plus you need to do the updates every year for like $1,000. It makes no sense to me. I'm small still. I don't have like thousands of patients, maybe one day, but not yet. I don't need the biggest practice management software out there. So I'm looking into a simple practice. I can actually show you guys around that the next time. So I keep my charts, my invoices there so far. I'm still going through the free trial. So who knows, I might not keep it, but that's the best one that I've seen so far. Actually, I wonder if I can show you guys now. So I've been using Simple Practice, and no, I'm not being paid to advertise any of this stuff, just so you know, it's just things that I am honestly using for my practice that I love. Yeah, you think you know what, I can show you guys this. I'm not going to log in because I have patients like in there. So I don't want to show you guys their names, but let me just kind of show you guys. So SimplePractice.com, just so you guys can see, I wonder if we can show you like how it looks. So it's nice. So I do have paper still for the medical and dental history and the consent forms, but all of my notes, my appointments, my confirmations, my invoices, I'm keeping them all in this Simple Practice system because it's pretty easy. And I like how it looks nice. Oh, I'm collecting payments using either email, money transfer or credit card. I do have a square portal that I have started to use because it was actually Tom's, but he doesn't use it that much. So I've kind of taken that over. But a lot of people do pay by email, money transfer. So I could collect payments within this Simple Practice too, but I'm just not yet because I'm not really familiar with that. But it's nice because with this Simple Practice, you can make your own templates, which I'm still looking through like everything. But as you can see, you guys, there's tons here. It looks nice too. Like I can't stand, it's probably the OCD in me, but I don't like how a lot of the practice management softwares look like. I just think that they look tacky, more than half the stuff you don't actually use. Here, I've been putting in my clinical notes, of course, as well. Apparently I can send things through to insurance when I sign up for that. But right now, I just simply give them a claim form and then they, a claim form with the codes, and then the patients have no problem using that. They just simply submit it to their insurance company. That's it. Oh, I can have it on my cell phone. I didn't know that. Oh my gosh, this is hilarious. So I'm definitely going to look into that. But that's what I'm using you guys so far. Yeah, let me see. Let me just stop sharing my screen here. So I've just been using all kinds of things. I will do a video tomorrow with kind of showing you guys around, I guess, all my fine equipment. I do see patients tomorrow, so I might do that at the end of the day. But yeah, you guys, I'm just loving it so far. Feel free to ask me any questions. I am so happy to help. And I will talk to you guys soon. I'll see you in the next video.


Narcissists often make you doubt your own sanity, your hold on reality, your perception of what is true and what is not. But does this amount to gaslighting isn't the same as gaslighting?  And yet, do narcissists lie? Narcissists also insist on an autobiography that is largely made of invented material, trying to bridge gaps in memory. Are these inventions, narratives, pieces of fiction? Are these lies? Are these deceptions self-deception or other deception? And do they involve gaslighting? This is the topic of today's video. When I say he, it applies to she, of course, half of all narcissists are women, and it applies to all settings. Intimate relationships, marriages, family, friendships, the church, football club, you name it, the army, you name it. So the narcissist relates to other people. The narcissist maintains interpersonal relationships by utilizing the shared fantasy. That's the way he interacts with the world. And yes, that's the exclusive way he interacts with the world, because narcissism is a fantasy defense. Let me provide you with a few distinguishing marks, a few distinguishing points, and then we will head on to the discussion itself. Gaslighting is always premeditated. It's intentional. It is goal-oriented. It is the aim is to secure some goal. And it involves an asymmetry of power. The person, gaslit, is somehow weaker, more helpless, less resourceful than the gaslighter. Lying is lying, knowingly, deliberately, intentionally, with premeditation, making a statement that the liar knows is untrue. Now in both gaslighting and in lying or deception, the person who commits these misbehaviors is aware of the distinction between fantasy and reality. He is firmly grounded in reality. He knows what he's saying is untrue, is counterfactual, is wrong, and yet he uses these techniques to manipulate his human environment and to secure goals. And so this is the critical differential diagnosis.  Because narcissists cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Consequently, narcissists never gaslight and very rarely lie.  These are psychopathic strategies. Narcissists are demented. They can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy. They're on the cusp of psychosis. That's not some balcony. That's autocannibration. They're on the cusp of psychosis. They're no longer with us. And so they don't sit there skimming and cunning and planning, and they don't do this. They just lapse into fantasy. They elope. They vanish from reality, and they do it so often that 90% of their lives are composed of these kind of fantasies. So today I'm going to discuss a mechanism in narcissism, known as confabulation, which superficially resembles gaslighting and lying, but is not. But before we go there, let me once and for all clarify the controversy about dissociation and disassociation. Please listen well, and please visit the website that I'm about to recommend, that is the official repository of all terminology in psychology. And if a certain word is not there, there's no such word. Period.  A charlatan is anyone who claims expertise in a field that is not his.  Now, more to the point, there is no such word as disassociation. Only people who are profoundly ignorant of psychology would use this word. You don't have to believe me. I suggest that you go online to the APA Dictionary, American Psychological Association Dictionary. Type the word disassociation. See what you get. Let me help you. No such word exists. And indeed, no such word exists in psychology. Case closed. Let's move on. And today we're going to discuss, in other words, much disputed confabulation. Now, this word does exist in psychology, but it has had a long and convoluted history. My name is Sam Vaknin. I'm the author of Malignan's Self-Love, Narcissism Revisited, and many other books on personality disorders. I'm also a former visiting professor of psychology. And I'm on the faculty of CIAPS. Okay, confabulation. Confabulation, as I said, has a long history. It was first described in psychotic disorders, then in dementia. And finally, Elizabeth Loftus and others have extended the use of the word confabulation to describe any lapse of memory which is compensated for by inventing scenarios. So any situation where there's a memory gap where you forget something, and then you invent a story or a narrative to bridge the memory gap to somehow overcome it. We'll discuss it a bit later. Let's start with the APA Dictionary, American Psychological Association Dictionary. The authoritative body of terminology in our field, the field of psychology. Confabulation, the dictionary says, the falsification of memory in which gaps in recall are filled by fabrications that the individual accepts as fact. It is not typically considered to be a conscious attempt to deceive others. You hear that? Narcissists confabulate, they're not trying to deceive you. They're not gaslighting you. Psychopaths do. So confabulation occurs most frequently in Kosakoff's syndrome, alcohol damage to the brain, and to a lesser extent in other conditions associated with neurologically based amnesia, such as Alzheimer's disease. In forensic context, says the dictionary, eyewitnesses may resort to confabulation if they feel pressured to recall more information than they can remember. So people confabulate, even healthy people, even normal people, when expectations are that they should remember something and they can't, some people, most people actually, would confabulate. Confabulation is the narcissist attempt to bridge gaps in his memory, dissociative gaps, dissociation, dissociative gaps. He attempts to bridge these gaps by constructing scenarios of what is most likely to have happened. He remembers point A in time and he remembers point C in time, but there's something missing between A and C. And then he asked himself, he asked himself, what possibly could have happened? What most plausibly has happened? And what is the most probable scenario or narrative or script which would link point A in time with point C in time? And then he comes up with point B. And point B is the confabulated scenario or the confabulation. It is a theory, confabulation is a theory of missing time. But the narcissist believes that the theory, the confabulation, is real and true. Now there are two reasons for that. First of all, confabulation by its nature is self-deceiving, even in healthy, normal people. And that's why many witnesses insist on the witness stand counterfactually in defiance of the facts. They insist, but I've seen it, I'm sure I've seen it. But you couldn't have seen it, yeah, but I'm sure I've seen it. So this is a feature of confabulation. It's very convincing. It's a kind of self-suggestion, hypnotic state, if you wish.  These people are unable to compare the confabulation to reality because they are divorced from reality and that applies of course to a large extent to the narcissist. This is not vaccinating, this is going back. The narcissists in the borderline are on the cusp of psychosis. So the narcissist is unable to tell the difference between reality and confabulation. As far as this concern, everything that is happening inside his head has a truth value. Everything, all the internal objects that they are real, he doesn't recognize the existence of external objects. For example, you, he interacts with representations of the world in his own mind. So it's very difficult for him to say, well, you know what? You're right. This is confabulation. That's not reality. You can't do that. You can't do that because he has what we call impaired reality testing. But this is second reason, much, much more powerful. The real reason why narcissists would insist that their confabulations are true and real. Now, before I proceed, confabulation is not gaslighting. Gaslighting is intentional, premeditated, involves a gradient of power, a symmetry of power, and is goal oriented. In short, gaslighting is exclusively psychopathic. Narcissists do not gaslight, they confabulate. And narcissists believe their own confabulation and would have a fight with you if you challenge the confabulation. They would, they would prove to you in a million ways that the confabulation is real, has always been real, and has never been invented, that this is just a form of memory. Their confabulation is a form of memory. And by challenging their memory, you're invalidating them.  So narcissists protect their confabulations, defend their confabulations, because their confabulation is the last remaining thread connecting them to reality. Event B, which is totally confabulated, made of whole cloth, a total invention, a scenario, a speculation. Event B is the only thing connecting the narcissists to event A and event C. If you were to scissor or to cut event B, the narcissists would remain adrift and float in a sea of amnesia that is terrifying. The narcissist protects his own integrity and his own ability to function by defending ferociously the veracity and factuality of his confabulations. But another reason to do this is because the narcissist considers himself infallible and omniscient. He never makes mistakes and he knows everything. He's a know-all. He's got like. He possesses the entire knowledge of of mankind and he never makes mistakes. So because it is the narcissist who came up with the confabulation, the confabulation can never be mistaken. And the confabulation is informed by the narcissist's grandiosity by his self-imputed omniscience. The narcissist says, I know everything there is to know. So the confabulation must be true. I never make mistakes. So the confabulation must be real. Defending the confabulation against challenges, defending the confabulation from being undermined, contradicted, defending the confabulation from any disagreement is a way to defend and isolate the narcissist's grandiosity from external attacks. It's not about the confabulation. It's about the narcissist's self-image and self-perception as perfect and divine. The narcissist confabulates, then he says the confabulation is real because he can't tell apart reality from internal processes. And then having having proclaimed, having promulgated the confabulation as real, the narcissist then remains committed to the reality, factuality and veracity of the confabulation and would fight you tooth and claw and nail if you were to challenge the confabulation because his grandiosity is invested in it. If he is proven wrong about the confabulation, then he is not omniscient. Then he is fallible. Then he is capable of making mistakes. And he doesn't know everything. Then they would destroy him. It would constitute narcissistic injury or if it is done in public modification. So the confabulation is the narcissist emotionally invests in the confabulation. He affects it. To a large extent, the narcissist falls self is a confabulation large. The narcissist confabulation confabulations are always fantastic. They involve a fantasy defense. The shared fantasy is a confabulation as well. Confabulation is may well be described as the organizing principle of pathological narcissism. Confabulation in narcissism is a cover for dissociation. Dissociation is an image perfection. If you dissociate, you're not perfect. If your memory is discontinuous and disjointed, then you're not omniscient and you are prone to mistakes and failures and wrong judgments. So the narcissist has to deny his dissociation because dissociation is narcissistically injurious.  He can't do that. He can never admit to his frailty and shortcomings and imperfections. Never. So he uses confabulation to cover for the dissociation, to avoid narcissistic injury, to allay and counter the challenges to his sense of superiority and omnipotence and omniscience and so on and so forth. Confabulation is a major tool in self-deception. Self-deception is the hallmark of pathological narcissism. Narcissism also desperately is trying to make sense of a chaotic, disjointed world. The narcissist samples the world. He has like samples and then he is trying to connect the samples with a thread of confabulation. It's like he has beads, all kinds of beads and he's trying to make a necklace. Necklace by threading the beads on a confabulation. So you see the importance of the confabulation. Confabulation holds the beads together. Take away the confabulation. The beads, the beads will scatter and there will not be a necklace of grandiosity. The second function of confabulation is to bridge the gap between immutable internal and mutable external objects. External objects such as you, the narcissist intimate partner or family member or friend or colleague or whatever, external objects change all the time. They grow, they evolve, they acquire new friends, external objects travel, make decisions, get jobs, get fired, move, relocate. External objects are kaleidoscopic. They can be controlled, they can be pinned down like a butterfly. They are alive. Life is dynamics. Dynamics is change. Change is transformation. Transformation is disorientation and insecurity and lack of object consistency. It terrifies the narcissist. Your autonomy and independence and agency terrify the narcissist. Terrify, like in horror, is horrified. And the confabulation intends to connect you, the ever-changing external objects with your representation in the narcissist's mind, which is the immutable, unchanging, fixed, idealized, usually internal object. Here's one object inside the narcissist's mind that never changes. It's always amenable to the narcissist's edicts and wishes and needs. And here's an external object represented by this internal object that constantly diverges and deviates from the internal object. One way to bridge this gap is coercive snapshotting. I discuss it in other videos. The other way is confabulation.  It flies in the face of reality. But the confabulation is the glue that holds everything together. It produces a fake sense of object constancy. It mitigates, abandonment, anxiety, separation, insecurity, and it creates an ambience of a secure base, maternal, like a mother. So confabulation is the dynamic, the mechanism through which the narcissist reconciles the external object with the internal object, thereby generating a sense of stability and safety that allows him to form object constancy and reduces his anxieties. Confabulation, therefore, is a major part of the shared fantasy. And finally, the third function of the confabulation is to connect the present to the past. In the present, the narcissist has an maternal object. And by the way, to be clear, the shared fantasy applies to all the narcissist's relationships with other people, all workplace, church, family, friends, intimate relationships, you name it. Shared fantasies, the way the narcissist interacts with the world. It's his mode of communication. He channels his narcissism through the shared fantasy in his interpersonal relationships. And yes, he and she are interchangeable, half of all narcissists are women. Now, all people, the narcissist's friends, the narcissist's family members, the narcissist's intimate partner, the narcissist's wife, even the narcissist's children, they're all converted into maternal figures within a shared fantasy. And so the narcissist needs to bridge, to connect his present with multiple maternal objects and maternal figures with the past, where he had only one maternal object, the real mother, the biological mother. Confabulation does this. Confabulation falsifies reality, helps the narcissist to view other people as maternal objects. Confabulation is the narcissist's way of converting you into a mother.  And this can be done only via confabulation, of course, because it's wrong. It's not true. It's not real. So here's another way confabulation enables the shared fantasy and powers the narcissist within the shared fantasy and allocates roles to people in the narcissist's life. As you can see, confabulation is not a minor issue. It's not just when the narcissist tells what is erroneously, what are erroneously perceived as lies or gaslighting. It's not just that. It's not just when the narcissist insists on a version of events and a version of facts that there's nothing to do with reality. It's not only that, but confabulation fulfills critical psychodynamic functions in the economy of the narcissist's mind. And if he had one, if he were to have one, that's all. Okay, Shoshanim, this lecture has not been confabulated. It corresponds 100% to reality. And you would do well to listen to it, because it would render the narcissist more comprehensible and more manageable, one should all.