Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by my friend Mr. Anthony Amadeo. Anthony, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me Bart. This is awesome, man Yes, so this is a really interesting one because We're talking about Covington era Rogers drums and this is a kind of a first of its kind where I saw you do a Really unbelievable presentation at the shields classic Rogers drum show that Poshai puts on in Covington, Ohio about an hour away from me, which was awesome, but cool.  Yeah, a cafeteria It was of a high school But you had the TV going with like, you know with clips and everything that you presented there today We will see but it was really special to have like Rob Cook and Bernie Stone and all these just Drum legends sitting there hanging on every word. You're saying you did unbelievable. That was amazing Thank you for saying that was very kind of you. Thank you. Yeah, so obviously though It was a pretty much instant thought of like wow Anthony needs to come and do his presentation on the podcast because you are We're gonna learn all this very soon But you are scientific with this like you are doing some serious research on on Rogers Yeah, it's a it's a passion that burns inside of me. So I just I kind of have no choice. It runs me, you know Yeah, Anthony, let's start off man. You have the presentation. I'll chime in every once in a while But I think for starters just the first thing to maybe start with is Tell us about Covington era and Rogers and how it all works together Okay Yeah, since we're gonna be geeking out on on Covington Roger stuff I think it'd be cool to clarify what the Covington era actually is which would be in 1954 when drums actually started coming out of the plant to the summer of 1968 Rogers drums were built on Joe Thompson's property in Covington, Ohio And and that's the Covington era and the era that I'm obsessed with. Yeah, yeah, so very well put Let's also say to people that there is an episode of the podcast with Jeff Burke and Poshai that covers like a more broad Mm-hmm, you know Rogers history, which I'll put a link in the description That'll tell you all about the different because Rogers Is a very very old company? It goes back to what the 18 isn't it? Is it not one of the earliest drum companies? Well, they it way back in the New Jersey era. They were really just a hide-head company. They were mostly focusing on Drum heads and banjo heads and things like that and later on in the 30s and 40s they started to make some drums, but it wasn't until Covington that they became one of the heavy hitters in the in the drum industry You know, oh, that's interesting that ties right into this. So yeah Anyway, everyone else check that episode out for more of like broad Rogers history, but yeah, great stuff in that one Yeah, those guys are awesome. And thank you to Poe. You'll hear later in the episode He reached out and walked outside with us and said he's like he absolutely wanted to sponsor this episode with Poe's percussion So you'll hear an ad later for the for Poe, but alright Anthony, give us the presentation my friend I'm excited to hear it again. I don't know if I could just Talk about the origins of the Rogers obsession first. Yes, so like The origins of my Rogers obsession starts with always just always loving vintage drums and You know the first set I ever owned In 1979 was a 65 slinger Lynn a set that I still have and that kind of set the bar for me modern drums really never did it and I always loved Rogers and other brands as well, but At about 2015 I got fed up with rail consulates like specifically that was it Yeah, so so I started to just really sell all that stuff and buy a bunch of Rogers and Obsessed over it sort of examining it and what made it awesome. And then in 2019 there was that first Covington show that Poe put on and That's when I got completely obsessed with the history and It was really first just seeing the town, which is basically Mayberry You know a village in Miami Valley, Ohio with the population of like 2500 yeah, and it made me think of these small town people and basically a homemade factory Building drums for Buddy Rich and Louie Belson and these and how these towns people took so much pride in What was coming out of their small town on my YouTube channel? I have a lot of interviews with former employees and one of them is Dan Davis and well Dan at the factory would drill out the shells and cut the bearing edges and stuff and He later became a plant foreman and we were talking about building drums for Louie and stuff And he said to me it didn't matter if it was built for the guy next door He got the same treatment that Louie Belson got and to me that kind of encapsulates the entirety of the era You know when when Rogers was building the best drums in the world in my opinion and I was funny I was talking the other day to my my friend Steve Bedalament who is the president of Innovation drum company and he knew Bill Ludwig the second really well And he said that one day he was over at Bill Ludwig's house and they were talking about Rogers and Bill had said to him You know from 64 to 68 as far as overall quality Rogers was really kicking our ass Well, yeah, and that's that's just it seems kind of funny to hear from Bill and and that kind of Quality trickled down from the top from Henry Grossman from Joe Thompson from Ben Strauss trickled down to the employees that pride and And and at that tonight 2019 show getting to meet some of these employees and hear their stories of what happened back then It ignited something in me that just burns hot all the time, you know Yeah, and and at that 2019 show was also when I met a guy named Dave Sims and Dave Sims is the pioneer of Rogers research He blazed the trail. There's no trail before Dave and he said that in in the early 90s When he was collecting drums He noticed there was a lot of literature and stuff out there on Gretch on Ludwig on Slinger Lynn but there was really nothing on Rogers and Him living about 30 minutes or 30 miles outside of Covington He said like you know, I'm gonna write my own book up even if it's just on the Covington era So he said that one day when he got off work the third shift at 7 a.m He just drove down to Covington pulled into the hardware store and Spoke to the first person he saw in there Who was just a woman behind the counter and said can anyone tell me about the Rogers drums that used to be built in this town? And the woman he was speaking to happen to be a woman named Brenda Beeman Who lived at the bottom of the hill and Joe Thompson's property where the plant was? Wow, I mean small town stuff, right? Yeah, really? Yeah So she was able to give him some phone numbers and through those phone numbers He got more phone numbers and before he knew it. He was sitting at these people's houses former employees Learning about what went on in the Covington era and recording it all on cassette tape and I have those cassette tapes now Dave has passed a lot of his research on to me and I've digitized a lot of those and put them up on my YouTube channel And there's just full of amazing information hearing from these people who are no longer with us most of them Yeah, and so he was doing this for about four years Dave Sims And he said he was about 80% of the way through his research when he saw an ad that Rob Cook put out That said I'm writing a Rogers book. Does anybody have any information? So he's like, here's my chance You know because Rob has all the connections and where you know to scout all these books out so he passed it on to Rob and What we see in that Rob Cook book it wouldn't have been the same without Dave All that Covington information is is Dave Sims information So I kind of see myself as standing on the shoulders of Dave picking up where he left off I Feel like my research is less about like, you know Henry Grossman purchasing in 1952 from Cleveland Rogers and moving it from New Jersey to Ohio or How CBS promised they wouldn't pull the rug out from the people of Covington and they did or how or like how The leading name was almost purchased instead of Rogers. Do you know, do you know that story? That's a that's a pretty interesting one No May maybe we it's come up at the show or hearing about that at the Rogers show But no, I'd love to hear if we could if we could go off really quickly from the night for from the 1920s Henry Grossman had a wholesale music distribution company music instrument distribution company called Grossman Music Corporation and they would put out these huge Counter catalogs Wow where they would sell everything you can imagine in as far as musical instruments sure and In the early 1950s they were looking for a drum name to sell through through their catalog and I guess Bill Ludwig had just bought his name back from CG Khan and Leedy was available and Ben Strauss was like Leedy's a respected name. We should buy Leedy and They almost bought Leedy, but Henry Grossman got wind that there was one Descendant of the Rogers family still alive a guy named Cleveland Rogers whose health was failing and he was looking to get out of the business So I think Henry Grossman got a good deal on the Rogers name. Oh man And that's how you know, he bought it and he found the New Jersey factory in shambles and was like we got to move this to Ohio Yeah, and that's when Joe Thompson got involved and they built the factory on his property And that's when it became, you know, the superpower that it sort of became for that short period of time Wow, what could have been because it at one point Leedy was like the largest Manufactured the largest drum factory in the world. Yeah, all of that stuff and George way was involved with them And there was all kinds of heavy-duty stuff going on. So yeah But fascinating but my research is more about the gear the shells the components built out on the shells Yeah, and things like that and also the vendors Which I always find really interesting like where did all the metal stuff come from? That's kind of like where my head goes because a lot of it was made in-house or sourced quite locally the way You know old companies would do like for example The chrome plating was done at a place called Miami Valley Platers in Piqua, which is a small town very close to Covington The lugs were both made in-house the drawn brass bread and butter lugs were made in-house and then the cast lugs were made at a Place called Acro cast and Dayton The square head tension rods came from national screw and manufacturing company in Cleveland And I think I sent you that purchase order over which is a really cool piece From 1965 Where they ordered 300,000 one and a half inch square head tension rods To be shipped to them in increments of 100,000 and I think it was October November and December So that kind of tells you how much the company was growing at that time in 65 Yeah, and and also That purchase order is signed by a man named Ray Mantell who I also sent a picture of because I always loved to put a face To a name the aluminum parts like pieces of the base drum pedal and the hi-hat pedal came from Ross Illumini Foundry in Sydney, Ohio and the brass shells were rolled at Dayton metal spinning in Trotwood, Ohio So a lot of this stuff was coming from Surrounding towns and surrounding cities the way all companies did back then and as an Ohio guy I like hearing I mean yeah like I could be a Dayton in like 40 minutes and like I said Covington is an hour away It's neat to hear this stuff happening right here in you know, Ohio Well from what I understand not being from there. There was a lot of industry in Dayton Yes, yeah as far as I know, but it is funny because Cincinnati and Dayton. I mean, they're different cities They're close, but I don't know much about the details, but there are a lot of it definitely an industrial town Yeah, yeah, yeah a lot of a lot of stuff for Rogers was coming out of there And as we know we eventually ended up they eventually ended up there in the CBS era but Well, the other stuff that was not quite as local like wrap suppliers and shell manufacturers or early stands came from Warburg and Ajay and in Massachusetts those early stands are just just awesome pieces but the wraps came from places like Roland technologies in Berlin, Connecticut, which is now a company called Aura fall apparently and they're known for something called Rolex illusion film and Something called moire, which is in the drone world known as satin flame Which is pretty cool. Yeah, very cool Then there was Dupont at a Delaware and then by 1966 Del Mar had kind of like cornered the industry and taken over and I think I'm pretty sure Rogers used Del Mar from there on out No, that's far as far as wraps That's cool to put that into perspective because you can't be all in Ohio, but it's neat I mean it sounds like for the most part though. It was pretty USA Centric obviously that time was different than today where a lot of things are in Taiwan and things like that, but right Very cool very high quality and and I'm not sure if you said it originally, but Covington era 54 to 68 Yes, gives people that that perspective and also about what you said with William F. Ludwig the second would be 64 to 68 that's Ringo boom Beatles Ed Sullivan quality goes slightly down I guess one would think and we've heard of we've we've all heard about the three shifts and yes, we know that Yeah, yeah, yeah, so because of that though the quality so for WFL to to say that is pretty high praise for sure for sure That's that's specifically why I mentioned it because coming from a guy like that, you know Just to say that about a competitor, you know, it's pretty absolutely There's the topic of shell suppliers and I have some notes over here to keep me on track because I'm kind of the king of tangents Sure, so if we could briefly talk about some of the companies who supplied these shells because there are some Conflicting theories out there on who supplied what and when and what kind of wood they were etc. Etc. The earliest company to supply shells to Rogers was Jasper wood products out of out of Indiana and And that's not to say that early on in the cut in the Grossman era There wasn't another shell supplier, but the first company to supply bulk delivery to Rogers was was Jasper and According to Ben Strauss, they supplied a very nice product But Rogers eventually started to have trouble getting enough shells to fill growing orders And I sent over a clip of Ben Strauss Talking about this very thing with a man named Mark Garris which we will listen to right now And I'm going to say real quick Ben Strauss artist relations and marketing manager from 53 to 76. So let's check that out Now when we first started out We used to buy our shells from Jasper, Indiana But we always had difficulty getting Couldn't get enough As we started to grow The old store when you first got out you buy very sparingly Everything is fine But then if you start to improve old sales and you need more Then your suppliers have to keep up with it or you're in trouble Jasper and Indiana and We were very happy with the Great of merchandise that we're getting Product was great, but unfortunately like I told you we couldn't get enough supply So we start looking around and finally Yeah, I'm hit on the killer But that time was an unknown as far as a drum business. No, where were they from? They're up in New England states I think in New Hampshire. Hey guys, this episode is brought to you by my friend Poe shy of Poe's percussion As I mentioned in this episode Poe is the gentleman who puts on the shields classic drum show which is just all Covington era Rogers drums in Covington, Ohio. I was just there. I had an amazing time I hope everyone checks it out But Poe is also a buyer and seller of all things Rogers Covington era which ranges from 1954 to 1968 so if you are looking to buy some Rogers Covington era drums He's the man to talk to or if you have some Covington era drums that you'd like to sell Poe is who you'd want to do that with because he's fair He's extremely nice and he's very knowledgeable and will likely know what you have and put a fair value on it for you And sells at a fair price as well So to learn more go to Poe's percussion on Facebook. Just search it there and you'll find it also on Instagram You can find Poe's percussion P O S percussion Poe's percussion And if you're gonna be at the Chicago drum show, which is coming up very soon after this episode is being released 2023 you can find him At the Chicago drum show booth 99 and 100 huge. Thank you to Poe shy of Poe's percussion for sponsoring this episode And he's he's a great guy reach out to him if you're interested in Covington era Rogers drums So thank you Poe for sponsoring this episode. All right, and then There's a photo you have of Henry Grossman in his bow tie With Joe Thompson at the factory and three workers standing on one of their permabilt shells in the 1950s Permabilt Referring to the staggered butt joint engineering which which gave the shell great strength Which I'll go over in more detail in just a bit But this is how they advertise their shell construction with this famous photo or versions of it a lot of them were in the catalogs These guys standing on the shell that was like a pretty cool Yeah, it is shows the strength you got three guys standing on your shell and Would there ever be like consideration to like, you know Cuz some some people did some people didn't like build their own shells in house or anything like that or with Rogers. I Don't I don't I don't know of any consideration of that But I I will mention something coming up pretty soon about them getting shells from slinger Lynn occasionally who did Manufactured sure sure interesting, okay But according to Ben Strauss Rogers supplier at the time did not have the forms or tooling To make a shell larger than 22 inches and we all know that some of the drummers on the Rogers roster namely Louis Belson and Buddy Rich There's those names again like to play a 24 And for shells of those sizes like I just mentioned they had to source from slinger Lynn You know to get those sizes and for larger marching and concert bass drums They would source them from slinger Lynn and I had recently found out that Uh slinger Lynn had supplied During this era not only Rogers but some some other companies Namely other people who use jasper such as camco and others would get get a a shell here and there supplied from slinger Lynn and um Ben Strauss tells the story of having to convince Buddy Rich that he didn't need more than a 22 inch bass drum To play behind a sextet, you know and Buddy bought it not knowing that Ben was only saying this because his supplier didn't make a shell bigger You know pretty love it pretty shrewd businessman. If you ask me Yeah, yeah, you don't need that in the back of his mind. He's like, please god don't get that shell We can't make it right and then there's the um, there's a the clip of ben strauss talking about that very thing We were able to get shells Up to certain sizes they had never made And when it came to making a large concert bass drum We're out of luck so believe it or not. We would buy a shelf and slinger I Refinish it through our satisfaction and make a concert drum. We may have never sold a lot of Large concert drums at that time The biggest bass drum we had was a 14 by 22 We got them to make larger forms and that when we first got together with Buddy was always using a 14 by 24 as was louis belson And we do this and they should be satisfied with a 22 But he said always is a 24. I said, yeah, but you're working with a Sex debt. You don't need a 24 in space, John Why don't you let me set you up with a 22 and everything that we find and he went along with it And uh, then we made a 24 for buddy For louis also And then you also have a picture that I sent you of buddy playing one of those 22s Very rare to see a picture of buddy rich playing a 22 inch bass drum And it's a great shot of a beautiful set with the bread and butter lugs I love that shot. Yeah to to describe it for people listening. It's like a beautiful So I mean the white marine pearl with a canister throne Buddy Kind of hunched over of course, you know as we're all used to but with a 22 and it's this is just in general Whatever size bass drum. There's a lot of I love side shots of I was just gonna say it's that side shot You get that open left-handed side shot where you could see everything going on Yes, very cool. Um So around 64 65 when business really started to pick up Rogers had to look for a shell supplier who could keep up with these demanding orders as we saw on that purchase order They're ordering 300 000 Attention rods, so you know things were picking up and I think this is what this is when they landed with keller There's a highly published theory that Rogers used jasper three ply shells until 61 when they changed to keller three ply shells and then in 65 The keller three ply shells turned to change to keller five ply shells and that that That theory always seemed pretty flimsy to me and quite frankly, it's not very logical so I I was just Driven to dive deeper And I've long had a theory that rogers was never really exclusive with the shell manufacturer and used both jasper and keller simultaneously for periods of time And I stumbled across this 1966 article called rogers steps up business beat Where there's an interesting statement and I sent you that that article Maple shells ranging from 12 to 40 inches in diameter come to the plant from indiana and new hampshire Now does this back up my theory and maybe I don't know, but it's new hampshire would be keller indiana would be jasper exactly So I don't know if this backs up my theory, but it is cool to see it mentioned the two places As in like as someone who you're really deep into this stuff is some of the outside I would say yeah that pretty much But you also have to think that like if it's if it's in the you know, whatever if this is the newspaper or whatever they're not like They might be a little loosey-goosey with facts here and there, but That is definitely an aha. It is. I mean when you're digging for stuff like I am that's definitely an aha moment for me I'm like, okay, both places. Does it prove my theory? No, does it make me excited? Yes, you know, so Um, but as I continued to dig I found that coincidentally and simultaneously my friend and associate rick giles Was on the very same quest and we began to kind of collaborate and share notes because rick had sat with some former employees of jasper and gathered some really Priceless information and I believe what we found is is pretty close to the truth of how it all actually went down as far as shell manufacturers What was obvious to me Is that the re-rings and the edges that changed in 1961 and I sent you a side-by-side shot Where you see the the wide re-rings the earlier wide re-rings on the left and then The other re-ring the more modern re-rings on the right that changed in 61 from the flat wide Bottom re-rings with the rounded edges to the double angled re-rings with the sharp edges is what led people to believe I think That the manufacturer had changed But to me this router change had more to do with rogers changing their bearing edge than actually changing a supplier They changed to a double 45 degree Sharper edge in 61 and I think that led people to believe. Hey the manufacturer had changed There are just too many things pointing to all three ply shells Being jasper and if we can I'd like to go over some of those Um, a short side note though a short one. I promise I have seen very few six ply Jasper shell rogers drums, which is kind of not surprising because at the time jasper was Supplying gretch with six ply shells They look exactly like a gretch shell just with a three ply re-ring installed Which is really interesting to me and I I'd love to get some testing done On whether one of those shells to see if it was actually the shell composition that um that gretch was using Which I believe was maple gum somebody could correct me on that if i'm wrong But I think it was maple gum that jasper was was using in the gretch shells It might be a little tough to get One of those six ply rogers shells because they're they're pretty rare and you kind of have to destroy a shell to get a sample Yeah, you're That's a whole another side note which like at the end we have to talk about your sampling and your things like that Because I know it'll derail us kind of now But like but you are really like I said in at the beginning You're doing some scientific stuff here and testing the wood and all that we're trying to and it is difficult Because you either have to drill the shell or the shell has to be completely damaged in some way in a car accident or something You know, but so but it's a great way to get life out of a busted up shell That's There's nothing else happening with it except it being thrown away. It is the perfect way to yeah To get keep it alive to get yeah to get use out of something useless for sure Yes. Yes. Yeah, so so back to three ply shells First I want to talk about these letters that we find literally stamped into the re-rings of the shells And I sent you an example of one of them and in that particular picture It's an f but sometimes it's an a sometimes it's an m or a w depending on which way you're holding the shell Uh, we believe that these stamps are some sort of quality control mark From the jasper factory. This wasn't something done by keller. I know that And we know for sure it didn't happen in covington collectively We've spoken to enough employee employees there to know that it's not something that happened in house and many many see an f and immediately think frank walters Frank was one of the most well-known assemblers at the covington plant And certain assemblers would write their initial on the inside tag as sort of a maker's mark when they assembled the drum And frank would always write an f But we know for a fact that these drums would get their lacquered interior before assembly, of course And all of these stamps are under the lacquer. This wasn't something that was done by an assembler And these stamps disappear right around 65 or so And that that's going to be an important date going going through the what we're talking about here So jasper was stamped with the letter as a sign of this has gone through quality And you know, this might be a a dumb thing to say, but I I would have thought so so was jasper applying the re-rings Before being sent. Yeah, that would have been done on the pre okay Because I didn't know why I thought it would be here's some re-rings and you hammer a man and you Whatever and it's spacers and things but so they'd get them and they would do the edge from from what I've gathered from everyone who worked there From both jasper and keller the shells would come with re-rings in them And then they would cut mostly dan davis who I spoke about before would would cut the edge Like I said, these those stamps disappear right around 65 or so. There's that date also Almost every shaft jasper shell that I own and have seen have these little gaps Where the plies meet visible at the edge? I sent over a side by side picture of the both three ply rounded edge and sharp edge where you could see these little These little gaps I only see this on three ply shells and never on never on the five ply shells This would be the staggered butt joint Of the aforementioned perma built technology that I was speaking about before these built shells Were built as extra rigid based on this technology What was built as a perma built shell as I just said were the staggered butt joints meaning that Every ply joint is at a different spot on the shell so say on a five ply shell At every joint there's four plies of solid material surrounding it As opposed to say as opposed to say like a scarf joint where all the ends meet at one spot like The shells that slingerlin and Ludwig made where the pearl laminate was joined into the scarf joint To do that they used something called a foot brother's bending mandrel It's a very old process where everything would meet at the scarf joint and um, this well this staggered butt joint process is something that's pretty common today And you know, I'm clearly I'm clearly no shell expert You're more than me and it's fascinating to get this info from someone like you and and there was always that pursuit To have shells that would not go out of round and the The insurance policy of like the re-ring to keep it solid But I mean if you've already got three grown men standing on top of a shell You're pushing, you know, it's working. Yeah, really clearly. Yeah, great. I've been great advertising if nothing else I mean, yeah, really you don't need to do that. But right and I mean, I'm Obviously like I said, I'm no shell expert I thank bernie stone for fielding all my questions because I bother him quite a bit and It's awesome. Great guy. He comes up quite often in this. Um But that permeable technology was used by rogers on both their jasper and keller shells But only the three ply shells have these gaps And again, these gaps disappear right around 65. There's that there's that year again And while doing some research, I contacted a representative at keller shells And during our conversation, he mentioned a few things that at the time I had kind of written off But later became important and I'm glad I recorded the conversation so I could go back and check And when I asked him when keller started supplying rogers with shells He said That had to be right around 65 When the company was finally ready to go commercial rogers was among the first to take us on commercially and myself Still firmly believing the old theory of changing to keller in 61 I kind of thought maybe he wasn't remembering correctly or was misinformed You know, uh, and yeah, and then when I asked him about how many plies those shells Might have been he said without hesitating He said those shells would we we supplied to rogers were always five ply As per their requested specs with butt joint shells and scarf joint re-rings And via rick rick jiles who I mentioned before who had spoken to the plant manager manager at jasper Uh, he told him that their default method was for shells to have staggered butt joint re-rings If we could look at that f stamp photo again You could clearly see a butt joint re-ring and on all three ply shells that I've seen there's prominent butt joint re-rings Again, I wrote it off as him possibly not remembering properly And I asked if he would know what the wood composition of those shells would be he stated Those would have been maple shells with maple re-rings for a third time There's me respectfully kind of like maybe he doesn't have any info But after doing the research that I mentioned the water started to clear a bit And everything he was saying was right on the money Everything as as my friend jerry shields who was a covington employee Once told me and I quote right around 64 65 rogers started to get very busy This had to be when jasper was having trouble filling orders And rogers had to look elsewhere for supplies in my mind enter the five ply killer shell. It's just like It's it's just a dot. It's too perfect the dot connecting, you know Yeah I personally believe the re-ring and bearing edge change of 61 Was in direct correlation with the inception of the dynasonic snare drum and their search for a snappier more responsive drum And and nothing more. It was just it just a change in the re-ring. So just to like kind of Super duper back up and clarify So then keller wouldn't have been involved at all before 65 and that was the start of it As as far as as far as i'm concerned and as far as what I was told by this representative at keller And and what what the puzzle pieces are putting together It just it really looks like that to me completely. Yeah, like like keller clear as a bell I've been just doing furniture or something before that and not making drum shells. I know I know they were like making Um like banjo bodies and stuff like that. I actually I actually learned a lot of this from your Episode with Justin Owen Yeah, who's I love that episode and I love Defending keller whenever it comes up a great chance to like when people say something bad I studied that episode and he actually says This stuff right in that episode Um, cool, but jasper is kind of more of a mystery Simply because there aren't as many kept records or people still living to you know, who know the details of the operation We do know that jwp pioneered curved wood plywood using dielectric heat to cure glue lines Which i'm sure was a game changer at the time But i'm not going to pretend that I knew what that meant at all when I learned about what it was So actually text bernie stone who replied with an extremely long text Which i'm not going to read because he went into crazy detail about Temperatures and rf percent processes and all that stuff. Yeah, but the very first sentence He says dielectric means the mold or platens are always hot Sort of like a george foreman grill would be the burners the burners on an electric stove Are dielectric coils so that kind of I get that simplifies. Yeah. Yeah, george foreman grill.  I got it Yes, perfect It's it's also stated that the glue that jasper used to adhere the plies was infused with a red aniline die Or some people say it was a red metal flake And i've always thought that if we could get between those plies to get a look at the glue We can get some more answers and I guess uh, the the employees at jasper said that they did that just for You know to identify purposes so someone could be like, oh, that's if you want to know That's our product get between if you see the red glue, you know Interesting which is which is interesting. Um, yeah. Yeah, they're like we were saying before There was some mention at some publications that jasper shipped their shells to rogers in tubes And that rogers would receive the tubes cut them in the shells and install the re-rings But everyone that I've spoken to who worked for rogers had told me that this is false and that they showed up As shells with re-rings in them To me, that's another debunked theory respectfully. Yeah Yeah, but it's it keeps you on your toes because if you hear something you know this to not just accept it Is blind like that's the yeah, they they they must because people do remember incorrectly and that's totally human and normal So right you don't take anything. I mean, I feel like everything you state is like Vetted which is totally I'm taking information from all angles and kind of I'm just trying to piece a puzzle together I don't have all the answers. This isn't like definitively what the answers are It's it's a puzzle that I'm eternally putting together like we know that jasper Was an early shell supplier as mentioned before before, you know before keller, obviously But what we learned pretty recently from that former employee at jasper was that jasper was supplying rogers with shells into the 1970s So more evidence of rogers not being exclusive with a shell supplier, especially in the cbs era And I don't know if we should maybe explain what the cbs era is what I mean by that Yeah, go for it. Yeah, but you you're the man to do it So, yeah, please don't it gets a little bit confusing because there's some overlap in april of 1966 CBS uh columbia broadcasting system or service or whatever. Yeah, yeah the big cbs the big cbs the one you think you think of when you hear cbs bought rogers from henry grossman and um But they left production or assembly in covington until the summer of 68 So there's some overlap in the covington era and cbs um, so from 66 to 68 drums were still Assembled in covington and then they moved assembly for a very short period of time to Dayton And then off to fullerton they went and i'm in agreement with some of the employees of covington that I spoke with who think Um They're in that cbs's intention all along was to get the company to fullers in california because they had recently bought fender Yep, and they had fender in a plant in fullerton and they wanted to get rogers in the same plant Which they eventually did but they had to kind of get the company out of the grips of the people of covington I mean The plant was on joe thompson's property the man lived and breathed Engineering things for rogers drums So they had to kind of get it out of the grips of the people of covington Move it just a hop and a skip to Dayton for a little while and then off to fullerton They went and that to me and this is my own personal opinion. That's where the kind of downfall of rogers started to happen Too corporate because it's like you said he's living there and it's it is truly sad with a small town like that to lose I'm not I don't think they employed everyone in the town, but it's you still lose any industry is bad I mean it was think about what that probably did for the economy of the town and those people all those jobs You know Yeah, and they took so much pride in that that those drums were coming out of their small town to lose that And I've heard I've spoken to some of them employees about it It broke it broke a lot of their hearts man. It really did of course It really did but I digress. That was a little digression. Um, no, I love it Yeah, uh that former employee of jasper who I was talking about Offer who offered the information on the 70s shells He mentioned that these shells would have either a maple or birch outer ply Now I've pulled up many quite long discussions from up to 20 years ago On drum forums including some pretty prominent names in the vintage drum world Where most were claiming they found birch or were told birch was part of the rogers shell composition One person who's a prominent figure in the vintage drum community Even claims that he was told this by the president of keller And I believe these discussions are where the theory of birch and the shell composition Became involved as if it was in all rogers shells, which which it absolutely isn't In the months leading up to the the shields classic drum show in covington Which you were at and where I met you myself poshie jeff burk and rick giles Set out to place some definitive evidence on the topic of shell composition and simply just start to find Some truth and we've employed the laboratory of harry alton of alton identification and microscopic wood id services Wood science specialists and dna expert out of marlin with over 30 years experience in identifying wood species And we supplied them at first with 11 samples from the covington era up to this point And every sample we've tested was pure maple no other species But we're you know, we're seeking samples Donations anything to carry out a complete study. We want to get a range from 54 to like 79 or so You know, the sample doesn't have to be larger than like two inches So, you know people could eventually contact me if they have anything they'd like to contribute to the cause or anything like that Absolutely I mean that's a call to action if you have that stuff totally get in touch And we'll have anthony's info in the description of that Send them some send them your you know old broken shells. Definitely. I've had a few donations and they're they're greatly appreciated You know, this is an ongoing study that may never be finished all the dots may never be connected But i'll always be working on gathering more information To add and hopefully it contributes to whoever picks up the reins after us, you know But these shells that we have studies for all of them covington shells were all maple All hard maple with the exception of one early one had an inner ply of soft maple Um, but all acer species north american maple And I think I sent you some of uh, some of our Our study results man. I just gotta say you guys are awesome the fact that you're doing this The the rogers. There's always something special About the rogers community. I mean to be doing this is just so like awesome to be having dna tests Or like species tests. I should say with like a dna expert Very cool. It's some geek out stuff and it's a labor of love and I'm sure there's people who think it's ridiculous But I love it. I just want I think it's awesome I want to piece the puzzle together, you know, because hopefully somewhere down the road Somebody might want to pick it up and there's all this info almost like like Dave sims had all that info for rob cook You know, we have all this info somebody else might want to pick it up down the road, you know So totally for the record. I believe that all covington era shells are pure maple Or at the very least as long as henry grossman and joe thompson were in power To quickly address the claims of the use of birch For years I've read the claim And before I knew better I was regurgitating the claim of Alternating plies of maple and birch in the rogers world. We've seen it and heard it a thousand times anytime anyone asks What's the composition of my shells the shells that I have this gets thrown around as if it's fact Alternating plies of maple and birch every single time We haven't found any trace of birch yet It granted we have not gone deep into cbs era shells just yet and our sample size will expand But I think it's time that this alternating plies of maple and birch thing gets put to bed Because whether birch was used at one point or not That specific theory is is completely untrue So I think that it's there you go. It's time to put that thing that keeps getting regurgitated to bed Well, something gets said in a forum and then it spreads and then it gets over and over and then you it becomes fact But you're I mean there is literally like documentation that says it's maple right I've had I've had some long and interesting conversations with a longtime drum builder Name nicolas chillenstam from sweden And he actually said that rob cook told him to get in touch with me, which is crazy But he has some interesting information and an interesting take on rogers shells cbs era specifically Um, he said that he's worked on and restored literally hundreds of rogers drums and has never found a trace of birch And he was telling me that birch found in the us is far too soft to use in drum shells And claims that birch using shells is often sourced from sweden finland and baltic regions I don't know if this is fact, but he stands strong on his claim And but this kind of to me battles the common claims of cbs implementing birch to cut costs because Where us birch is indeed cheaper than maple To import baltic birch, which is most most equipped For use in drum shells according to nicolas. I would assume that would be far more expensive if you're you know Considering cost as a factor, you know But nicolas doesn't think we'll find any birch in these shells But I have many claim that we will and we'll see as the study continues Um, yeah, nicolas was part of the fun. Yeah part of the fun You know, I like the the conflicting, you know the the conflict between who thinks this and that Um, yeah, but nicolas was telling me that the only wood we'll find in the big four american companies will be maple mahogany poplar and gum And that we're not going to find birch Um, when I reached out on a few vintage drum forums asking anyone if they had samples to note donate to our research I had a couple guys contact me Claiming to have restored multiple cbs or a drums, which had a birch out or ply And they sent me some photos of what they were talking about but i'm no woodgrain expert So I actually sent these to nicolas To bernie stone and to my friend and wood expert don rl and you have that photo of it's a stripped floor tom And you see the the outer ply of wood and when I showed them these photos nicolas said it was maple And bernie and don both said birch So even experts can disagree over a photo and that and that's why to me this dna testing needs to continue and hopefully we can get One of those drums to test and get to the bottom of some of this stuff Man that really does put and put it into perspective because all of those guys and I was I've known bernie And I was lucky enough to meet don at the show awesome guy sky. Hello to don But like if they if those guys can look at something and say Conflicting things then totally it it's it's hard. It's hard to tell That's why we need this dna testing to to continue like a couple weeks go at that covington show Um myself and bernie stone were looking at this cbs era dating shell that gary spaulding had donated to our research The shell had been just crushed in a car accident And bernie was kind of ripping through it and looking through the plies and He said that all he saw on this particular show was maple But we'll see, you know, I trust bernie's eye. He's a brilliant guy. So I trust this dna testing can't be I mean, you're like the mori povich of the drum world where you It is maple and people fall back in their chair. Right. Oh, that's a great um, yeah So as we move on from shells, maybe we can discuss What else made these drums stand out from competitors? And the first thing I think of is swivemmatic Totally the name Eventually became a moniker for all things of the era like bass drum pedals and strainers and everything But it originated as a ball and socket holder made of machine steel consisting of three pieces The ball and socket cage which is which is this piece here Um The cylindrical base attached to a dependent post which is this And the ball and mounting posts with equatorial recess and the equatorial recess is kind of this Little inset piece that goes around the ball And then, you know, fully equipped, of course, it looks like this Ben Strauss claims that joe thompson improved on the long existing ball and socket joint By making the ball slightly egg shaped to secure a lock And you have a pretty cool video of of ben talking about that exact topic So there's nothing new really about a ball and socket that's been around for centuries and so joe came up Uh, with an idea that ball and socket Would be fine if we get it to hold When you wanted something to really hold It had to have Enough resistance that wouldn't let go of so Joe came up with the idea Making the ball egg shaped If you put a round against a round Nothing will ever hold It just won't hold Because we found that out in all kinds of holders. You have round against round Eventually it works itself loose So by building this egg shape And putting these tension little tension screw was slightly above center It pushed the ball down into a pot The minute you put the two sensors on it and push it against the wall into a pocket No way that you move And and I want to say before we before we get back into this This was one of my favorite parts of your presentation Was just because of how famous swivemmatic is and you got a room full of guys Drooling over, you know, they everyone loves swivemmatic and then But it's this information about the little bit of an egg shape. Yeah, it's just kind of blowing everyone's mind That's so cool. It blew my mind.  It's very very minor very slight But like been described in in the video you need something egg shaped to secure a lock and um The design calls for two adjacent set screws To push the ball into the opposite side of the socket so often I see people using more Screws than they need and eventually damaging the ball because the ball is made of a softer metal than the set screws and if I could um Pull up the actual patent here In section 45 The patent reads The two screws are positioned 90 degrees apart and act to push the ball against the side of the cage opposite them Which reacts as a third contact point so that a third screw is not needed and then in section 55 The ball being made of softer metal than the lock screws can be penetrated by the hardened points of the screws Thereby assuring retention of the ball at the desired position under the most severe condition of vibration and shock Because it's a tum mount and this is revolutionary. This is why everyone was even Ludwig players slinger on the players people were Like switching all of their hardware over a swiveling and for sure it was so incredible. Yeah Yeah, you see it on on all these guys sets. You see it on Ringo said and John Bonham said on Keith moons The list goes on and on and um, you have a bit a video of Ben Strauss talking about the set screws. We tried to be Again Try to be everything to everybody you couldn't be so we figured we'd make it for a flat for a right-handed drummer And if he wanted to if he's a lefty he could turn it around so we put four holes in there the biggest mistake we ever made People would call him say hey, you sure to be two screws And I'd say no we did yes, you did there's four holes and I only got two screws I said but you couldn't even get into the other two I tell you the reason for that to be turned it around you take these two With the putt there wasn't necessary. We should have never put it in, you know, you don't always do everything right here What what ben is discussing there are are these four holes in the covington era unit two sets screws four holes the four holes were simply for player options and in an era full of rail consulates uh In very few options Swivematic completely changed the game not only then but to this very day just about how versatile and interchangeable it was That's what's great about swivematic. Everything is just like completely interchangeable In in addition to the ball and socket pieces were the corresponding plates Uh first the collet plate that accepts the hex rod Uh which offered multiple angles depending on where it was mounted on the drum And the original collet plates were designed for the corners of the hex to fit in these segment grooves Of the fingers. I sent a diagram to you that from the catalog And the last catalog to show this diagram was the 60R catalog which Suggests that at some point in the very early 60s probably due to human error Or most misunderstanding how to use it the design changed to the version that most of us know today Where the corners of the hex fit between the fingers and that diagram shows how they want the corners of the hex to fit in these little Uh kind of carved out segment grooves like the side-by-side photo I sent where you could see I think I circled the segment grooves On the original on the left and then the photo of them in use Holding the hex rod where you could see the corners of the hex on the left fitting in the segments and on the right fitting In the gaps of the fingers again again a tiny bit of over engineering possibly Yeah, but it's smart and and again to describe for people who are just listening It's basically the the hex rod that would be the actual tom mount itself going into the The receiving unit on the actual base drum itself the slots of where you know It's like anything old where it was it would it would fit It wouldn't be a 360 you could move and it would tighten it It would fit into slots that would in certain eras and in certain iterations. They have different amounts of Where they work differently where you put right to kind of like it would roughly describe It was only fitting one way Exactly the one that the segment grooves it wasn't going to fit the corners weren't going to fit in between the fingers. So yes So the other plate would be the knobby plate most commonly used On to on floor toms to mount legs or accessories off the floor tom This one of those that almost looks like a doorknob kind of thing According to ben Strauss, it wasn't until buddy rich Showed his dislike for the hex rod and collet plate symbol arm that the knobby plate became an l arm holder on the base drum And because of this the headliner and celebrity outfits were born I'd like to mention before you play the last video of of ben strauss That rogers was the only company to base their outfit names off the plate configuration on the base drum It has nothing to do with the drum sizes or anything like that where someone like Ludwig used things like the downbeat being 2012 14 or a super classic 22 13 16 rogers sets were named for the plate configuration I sent you some mounting diagrams that are straight out of jerry shield's inspection book from the factory That show exactly what i'm talking about The plates designating the outfit and where those plates were placed There they you know a name was given Yeah, fascinating. I never that's information that I've never knew you just think these I guess you never really think Where the how what the name corresponds to besides being you know, it's a different year It's a different upgrade, but wow that it's goes to the mounting hard. Yeah, pretty cool. That's very specific The names are based so you could tell like what a swing time is compared to a headliner based on what Plates are there and where they're mounted So this video would be Ben Strauss talking about the knobby plate And how it became a symbol l arm holder and interd created more outfits Yeah, let's check it out Now when I got together with buddy He didn't like this symbol So you came out on an angle of that Uh, do you like a more straight up and down or something? So so what did we do we took the again? I'll talk about interchanging We took the knobby units from the floor Tom's on And put them on the base, you know And made a symbol over Yeah With the uh bent arm or you're right. I'll say the hell same time Man, it's it's the same unit Awesome, man. I just got to say to the videos of Ben Strauss and it's just Kind of classic like if you're if you're listening you're hearing and you can hear kind of his wife in the background talking and stuff on some of them Which is funny, but we can all we've all experienced this. He's an older guy I think it looks like the timecode says like 1995 Yeah, so um, he's he's but very clearly passionate about it and and That is just so cool to see and hear that Right from his right from his mouth From a guy who was there from the beginning, you know And all these videos of Ben should give you an idea of just how important he was to this company in the formative years and beyond, you know Yeah, there's a story that bob curtner One of the managers of covington tells of ben strauss discovering some drums shipped from covington To the cleveland headquarters that weren't packed properly He took those boxes to covington gathered all the employees around Took the box over his head and slammed it on the ground Opened up to find a damaged drum then he did the same thing with a box that was packed correctly To open it up to find an undamaged drum Bob curtner said he raised hell about it to quote bob curtner And then he quoted ben saying this is what we built the company on and we don't want to lose it because some clown decides to Not put a piece of cardboard in there that's designed to protect this drum That act is a representation of the expectation of quality and attention to detail that was going on over at the plant And yeah, and and like ben there were so many others who worked in that town over at the factory And like we said, they took so much pride out of these drums These drums coming out of their small town and if you'll allow me i'd like to mention some of the names of those folks Of course, please jim. I'd like to mention dan davis Marvin thompson john harman frank walters oathy shields joy space shore ester martin don martin george martin Llewellyn minnick ralph johnson richard stude baker carl ashman daryl chenoweth jerry shields don canady helen ross bob curtner frank seith bill nicolas humpy whorlocker oathal wagner on and on Um, as you can see has a lot of the last names in there. There was literally families Working there relatives cousins husband wives with their son I think of these people every time I play my drums or take them apart to clean or do research Um, these people are what matters the most to me and I feel it's important that they're mentioned and recognized and remembered frankly You know the history the connection the fact that we still have some of them with us Where we could hear firsthand, you know, what went on back up in the golden era of rogers drums It's just important to me, you know Yeah, and it's it's it's like It just comes out of you like that to your enthusiasm for this and I think it's cool Obviously, I mean, I know you love multiple different brands and we all enjoy all that stuff but to to kind of Hone in on rogers. It is a special thing and and At that the the presentation you did the the Shields classic the rogers drum show to have like rob cook there and be hanging out The guy who's putting on the chicago drum show There's a special thing of this smaller kind of community based show about a specific brand Where people really aren't selling things like you might get one or two things But for the most part people are really just there to look and showcase their stuff Yeah, it's just it's special. It's a special group. It's almost more of like an appreciation for the town For the the history and all that, you know, yeah, and I wish I mean obviously we can't go over Everything today and I wish we could but you know, there's time constraints and but on on my youtube channel Which is dedicated to the rogers covington era. You'll find lots more topics like bass drum pedals stands tags catalogs drums Lots of interviews with employees and things like that. Yeah, you know, what's your username? Let's let's just so people know you could go just type in my name And rogers or there's those new like youtube handles Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how they work, but mine is mine is rogers drum videos Oh, perfect. So you guys you could search that too and yeah, and I'll put the link in there in the bottom in the description All that perfect. Thank you Yeah, absolutely And and I think it should be before, you know, I don't want to we wouldn't forget but jerry shields I was lucky to meet him Wonderful, I think once or twice, but you guys got to know him a lot He meant a lot to the rogers community just with his knowledge of what he did Absolutely with rogers. He meant quite a bit to me. We got we we actually Met online and talked online for a couple years and then met in person finally at that 2019 show that I was talking about and he just kind of like took me under his wing a little bit And I and like would take all of my calls and answer all of my questions And he sent me a lot of his files like I sent you that stuff from his inspection book and You know losing him was tough and he was he was a pillar of the rogers community and we all miss him terribly And I like to mention that we just just like a month ago. We lost dan davis as well who was an employee So, yeah, yeah, and I actually like to mention a few people that I haven't mentioned who are Covington experts Uh, first there's jeff herman Who grew up in covington? and just Insanely knowledgeable about this stuff Uh, legendary collector gary nelson who lives right here in new jersey who I have awesome access to And uh, bobby chia son from jollity drum farm These are the guys that I go to When I'm just like trying to figure something out and want to pick their brains these guys are just absolute legends and and and experts And then we got the new breed like guys like luke kondrich and vintage Vincent ward who I know you you know those guys. Those are my homies You know, so we're kind of like the new breed a little bit And you know, of course like I don't claim to be an authority on any of this stuff I just love it and want to just continue to try to uncover clues that may be lost to history And it's it's well, it's a passion. It needs to be preserved. Yes. And what you did I mean again, I I think the The presentation and I I I will put in a picture of it. I got a picture of you presenting to the group of like Uh, it was just like very cool and you don't see it very often I mean a lot of times I feel like you know, I have fun doing my podcast But again, I'm not standing in front of a room of people Presenting things and it was you did a great job and should be very proud and it takes guts And I mean you literally drove kind of halfway across the country and And did it and and it was awesome. I was very very happy to be there and and witness it. So That was it's a big move If I don't want to say it's a big move forward for the entire drum community But for the drum history to like it was very legitimate And I think that's what we need is like these like case studies and Examining things and it's it was important really important to do that Well, I appreciate you saying that man really do your words carry weight with me It was it was nerve-wracking to have like you there and rob cook there And bernie stone there and i'm sitting there and i'm about i'm about to Present all this information that I have confidence in but there's these like kind of like legends looking at me And i'm like do I want to do this right now?  No, you were I think I love our community We all do but there's something special about the drum community where everyone it was just Again just to describe it more people or you had shells that you were handing around where people are examining bernie's going Is this I think that's two applies and and it's just like it was pretty cool It's a special community, man. The the drum community is just like it's a special thing, man. Awesome. Anthony Well, this is just like incredible man. Like I said, it's been great to to meet you We've talked in the past and I've thoroughly enjoyed your youtube videos and stuff But to get you on the show is like Uh, it had to happen for this specific one So anthony is kind enough he's gonna hang out and I want to hear more we're gonna do a patreon bonus episode I want to hear more about the like species testing the dna of the wood And uh and and how that all works and like maybe what you send them and and if if this was like If the guy who's getting it is like what the hell are these guys talking about who cares? But we care but um and all that good stuff. So if you want to hear that and 70 The five or something other bonus episodes go to patreon.com slash drum history podcast and you can Hear them and uh and and enjoy them there. So uh anthony at the end here Is there anything we talked about your youtube channel? But put that in the description any other social media or anything you want to plug Um, I think as far as the roger stuff just the just the youtube is is planning. I think and there's the facebook groups Covington drummers, which is this this specific era rogers usa rogers drums you get your your daily I love the morning, you know, good morning. The weather is this posts from all the rogers guys. So um, Anyway, very cool anthony. Thank you for your time and your preparation for all this and it's just been a blast So, uh, thanks for being here, man. Thank you barks been an honor, man. I appreciate it