Okay, good morning everyone. Thank you for connecting to this class. The recording has started. We can pray and begin this morning. Let me just start with the word of prayer. Heavenly Father, we come to You, Lord, in the name of Jesus. Father, we thank You for another new day. And Lord, Your mercies in our lives, Father, which are new every morning. Father God, as we take time in Your Word, we pray that, Lord, You will help us anchor our lives, God, to the Word of God, which is eternal. Strengthen us, Lord, establish us and enable us, O God, to live for the glory of Your Name. Father, we speak blessings upon all the faculty. We speak blessing upon all the students and their families.  In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. So let's proceed with the book of Hebrews. Yesterday we talked about moving towards maturity in God in Hebrews chapter 5. And then we went to Hebrews chapter 6, which is warning us about falling away. We just started that section and we had identified who it was talking about. It is very clearly talking about a born-again, spirit-filled believer. And the text is suggesting that there is a possibility of a believer in Christ going away from God. So that was what we were discussing. So this morning, once again, let's go back to that text. We were at verse 4. Hebrews chapter 6 verse 4, all the way till verse 8. So let me just leave this time open to discuss about falling away. Are there any questions from our side about somebody going away from God? It's not falling. Instead it is falling away. And yesterday I clarified the difference between the two. Falling is to come short of God's standard sometimes in our walk with the Lord as believers because we may fail, we may have shortcomings. But as long as sincerely we are coming back to the Lord with a repentant heart setting our lives right before Him, it's okay. That's the journey of every believer, an overcoming life. But falling away means somebody who has gone away from God completely. And they have, we could even say rejected Christ. So that is the status. So any questions regarding that? I have a question. So about the preachers nowadays when they preach and they preach so good.  Which are quite serious accusations even, which one of the worst thing I've heard is some abuses that they have. So what happens today or do they really get saved? Or they are forgiven? Response to the question, they fell away or they just, I don't know. Yeah, I know it really affects us as believers when we hear such stories of mighty men and women of God. Suddenly there are these stories about them not living a godly life. See, ultimately I think one is known by the fruit of their faith and their ministry. So we can observe the fruit of their lives and their ministry and see whether it is really leading people to Christ. If yes, then we know that they were a true minister of God. But if it's not, the Bible also shares that in the last days there will be those. We'll come to it when we study the book of 2nd Peter and the book of Jude, that there would be some who call themselves as ministers of God who were actually not born again, were actually not of God in the first place. So there is a possibility for something like that to happen. But in the case of a minister of God who was doing so well and doing everything right, glorifying God, and then they went wrong, it's very difficult for us from the outside to really judge and say that, oh, will they be with God or how will God, I think it would be between God and them. Because now there are all these comments that people have before us, which some, maybe they can be verified, some cannot be. So it's very difficult for us to judge and say what happened, whether they died in Christ or they didn't. We don't only, in heaven, we know, I suppose. Is that okay, Jafina? Does it make sense? Yeah, good question. Yes, Zellie, please go ahead. I have a question. One of my friends, that person backslided and that person also wants to come to the Lord again. But what I heard from that person is that the mentors, they're not fully supporting him. They're just that person, and that person is isolated. And I heard from that person that the mentors, you know, what to say, like, instead of encouraging that person, they are just, I heard, you know, like very negative comments about that. That person, and he was so hurt with that mentor that he, that person left the church. So in that situation, like, as a friend, I'm so concerned about that very person. So how can I encourage that person so that he, that person will be built up in the faith and, you know, from the first perspective? Yes, thank you, Zellie. That's very, you know, like a real situation and struggle that somebody could be having. And I can share some of my own thoughts. If we look at James chapter five, James chapter five from verse 19, it says, Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. So when we find somebody who's gone away from God, our responsibility is to help bring them back. When we look at Hebrews chapter six, you know, where it says it is impossible for someone, you know, who has tasted of God so wonderfully, and if they fall away to renew them again to repentance, it's talking about an extreme situation. And this is not the norm and I don't think we can quantify this, but just for our understanding, I would say something like, you know, in 99.9% when believers repent and they want to come back to God, they can be restored, but this would probably be, you know, maybe 0.1% or if you want to bring that number down 0.01%, it could even be, you know, that fewer number that this particular passage is talking about. So then in our everyday scenario, we find that some of our friends, our loved ones have gone away from God. Instead of applying what we read in Hebrews six, we can consider passages like James five, which is, which talks about bringing back someone, turning them away from their error and saving their soul. So we must do that for our friends. So Zellie, good that you're thinking about it and you want to help your friend in this situation. Now how to do it? I think Galatians six also has something nice to tell us. So let me just quickly put it. Okay. So Galatians chapter six verse one, brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself, lest you also be tempted. So it is telling us to help them with a spirit of gentleness, meaning we see their weaknesses, we understand what could be going wrong. And instead of accusing them, condemning them, pulling them down, tearing them apart, we in a spirit of meekness, we very humbly try to guide them. Now this does not mean that we don't speak the truth to them because the same Bible also tells us that we must speak the truth in love. Right. So don't hide their faults. We need to let them know what they did wrong. But do it in a gentle way. Do it in such a way that it could really help that person come back to God. So does that help personally? Yes, that was helpful. But that very person like who I mentioned, like that person was saying like, okay, I have fallen. I agree that I've fallen, you know, but that person said, I'm very much disappointed with my mentors, you know, instead of encouraging me, now they've just let me let him own his own and they're not trying to communicate with that very person. So like as a friend, I can feel what that person is going through, you know, like he's like that person is like kind of isolated in that way. So yeah, again, from the friends perspective, you know, how can I encourage that very person more so that, you know, he will fellowship with other like minded believers. Okay, so see if if at all the mentors are rejecting him at this point and not helping him come back, that is very sad. However, we don't know though your friend is stating that the mentors are not taking me back, we don't know if there are there have conversations have taken place where your friend is probably, you know, not willing to listen to the mentors, maybe they've said something and your friend is not willing to do it. We don't know, there could be a lot of things that are unsaid. Alright, so what I would suggest is I would suggest that your friend, you can encourage your friend to approach the mentors and to like maybe state to the mentors and say hey, I'm sorry. And I could you please give me a chance be repentant before the mentors that will be helpful at least it'll help them know that this person is making a turnaround. Okay, so that might be a good thing to do but even after letting them know very clearly that this individual wants to come back to God if they are not helping then I think he or she may only have to strengthen themselves in the Lord by on their own and let the spirit of God, the word of God, wash them, restore them and I believe that as they are seeking the Lord, God will bring good, godly people into their life to speak and sort of, you know, revive, refresh, restore them once again. Okay, thank you. Okay, thanks Sally. Thank you. It is quite challenging. And from what I have observed, you know, whatever a little bit of ministry experience that I have, I feel when when people want to come back to God, working with them. It's, it is quite challenging, especially the part where, where as someone who's working with them, you help them know that you are for them, you're not against them.  For them to be convinced of it is quite difficult. Like they sometimes carry so much of shame that they are not able to be back in the kind of relationship that, you know, they had with their leaders or with their mentors earlier. But yes, as we speak to them, pray for them and affirm them again and again and say, hey, hey, don't worry about what has happened. You can make a change. And let's work together, hopefully, hopefully, both the person and the mentor can come to a place where, from where they go forward. Okay, sure. Thank you. Very practical issues there. And good, it's good that we are talking about it. Anything else to discuss before we get back into the passage? Okay. So with regard to helping those who have fallen away from God or dealing with conflicts, I think there is content in the book Kingdom Builders quite elaborately pastor writes about these matters. So I encourage you to go read that. And coming back to the text here from Hebrews chapter six, that is pointing out somebody who has fallen away. Okay. They have rejected God. Now again, you know, some questions that people ask is if the grace that God has given is so immense. Then why how can people fall away? Because Christ has already paid for our sins. And no matter what somebody has done, they can find redemption amidst that you see this falling away. Generally, this would happen if the individual rejects Christ. Okay, and that's what verse eight, sorry, verse six says here, since they crucify again for themselves, the Son of God, and put them to an open shame. So how do these individuals crucify the Son of God by living in their sin willfully. So when something like that happens, it is the will of the person to reject the finished work of the cross. Otherwise, you see the redemption bought by the work of by Jesus on the cross is so powerful and, you know, so generous immense that anyone who's repenting can come under that grace. Isn't it? But why is it not happening for the person who's falling away? Because they are willfully rejecting it. That's the only way to, you know, keep the power of God, the cleansing work of the blood of Jesus out of our lives. So that's the kind of person that this falling away passage is talking about. Okay, so it also says here that they put him to an open shame. That means that what an individual who's away from God is doing is they, we say, right, like the life that God has given us is to glorify and honor him. So someone who's fallen away from God are going in their own way. So there's no glorifying God. There's probably glorifying self and pleasure and, you know, all sorts of things. Now moving on to the next two verses here was seven and eight. It simply states, for the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated receives blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. So what does this mean? It's in continuation to what we said about somebody who's fallen away. So then what does it mean this passage? It means what it states. It says that when the rain comes down on the earth, the plants bear good fruit. And that's how it's supposed to be, right? But the blessing of God, the spirit of God at work, we're supposed to produce fruit for God. That's the normal way of the natural process. But let's say the rains come, but ultimately you find thorns, briars, then that is sort of, you know, it says it is rejected and near to being cursed. God doesn't want that. Rather, God rejects fruitlessness. And we know the passage in John chapter 15, where the scriptures talk about we being the branches of the wine, we bear fruit. And how does the father work on us? He prunes us to bear fruit. So every life must bear fruit for God. If there is a life that does not bear fruit for God, that's something that God rejects. And that's what he's saying here. Someone who's fallen away, living willfully in sin and putting God to public shame, right? And not glorifying God. That's not the kind of life that God wants us to have. And there is a warning. We've been seeing this throughout the passages of the book of Hebrews that the writer is warning that in any given situation, don't allow yourself to be in a place where you reject God.  Right? So let's move on. We'll go to the next section here. We'll go ahead with reading verse nine to verse 12. Can one of us please read it? But beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you. Yes, things that accompany salvation. Do we speak in this manner? For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love, which you have shown toward his name. In that you have ministered to the saints and do minister. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end. That you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Okay, it's like a father talking at one point. He's very stern. He's very direct. And he talks about matters that are quite difficult to digest things like falling away.  I'm not saying that you did it. Okay, but you, you're, you've done so well. So a little bit of encouragement mixed with the earlier warning that came across. So from verses nine, he says, but beloved, so you see how with that in the endearing word, he encourages them once again, less the people become fearful.  So he says, but beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you.  You will do better with your faith. We are confident about better things about you. Things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. Now again, a word of encouragement, verse 10, it seems like the Hebrew believers, they had a good testimony. They were serving God faithfully. And that's why in verse 10, he says, see, God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love. And he adds there that they had ministered to the saints. So we recognize that it was a very hospitable community. And in those days, it is said that when ministers of God went from city to city, town to town, they would stay back in the homes of believers in that place. So the Hebrew believers might have taken care of, you know, preachers and believers and others who were traveling, traveling ministers. So he's encouraging them and saying, look, you've done so well. You have served God faithfully. And God is a good God. He recognizes the work that we do for him. And he says that God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love. Okay, so that's so beautiful. That's a word of encouragement for all of us today. I know that all of us in various capacities, we are serving the Lord in our own local churches. And any opportunity that God gives us, always know that God is faithful. He'll not forget. It says he's not unjust to forget your work. Sometimes when we work so hard for the Lord, and maybe we are tired or we are discouraged, that people didn't affirm us, they didn't praise us. You know, there can be all kinds of reasons. One thing that we can encourage ourselves with is that God sees it. Okay, and he is a rewarder. He's a rewarder. And I really love that passage. I think it's Romans, it says that there's no partiality with God.  At the right time, you know, the blessings will flow. So with that assurance, we can serve him. Don't worry about people recognizing or people affirming praise God, you know, sometimes people see our work and they say, Oh, well done. So good and all. But then there are other times that nobody may know how we are serving God, but stay encouraged because God is just God is faithful. God is not partial. God is a rewarder. And he also says labor of love. So it tells us that when we love God, when we love people, there is some exertion there, some strain, some putting in effort. Right. And maybe at times we have to go out of our way. And that's giving us the understanding of labor. Labor is what when we see someone striving in the sun, working hard, we say, Hey, look how they are laboring. So even in the ministry, there will be times when we labor, but it's a let it be a labor of love. Let it not be a labor of complaining. Oh God, why should I do this? Why did you ask me to do all these things? If it's a labor of love, which we do towards God and for his people, there is a blessing and that blessing will not miss us. Okay, that assurance we can carry. So it's a beautiful, encouraging passage or a scripture here, Hebrew 610. I'll read it again for us for God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love, which you have shown toward his name in that you have ministered to the saints and do minister. So he's encouraging the believers and saying, good job. You're doing well. Keep it up and God will reward you for it. And going on to verses 11 and 12. It's an encouragement to continue in God and receive the promises of God into their lives. So he says, we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end. Okay, and verse 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. So he's saying, starting off on a journey is so good, but finishing is even better. The problem is when we give up midway and no matter what is going on in our lives. Let's have this focus that we move on with diligence until the end. Keep that faith alive, hope alive until the end. That should be our goal as believers. Yes, I started wonderfully, but I have to finish. Finishing is very, very important. Finishing well is so very important. Okay, so that's the focus that he wants to bring to the believers. And he says that, see that you don't become sluggish. But like those who have inherited the promises of God, how did the people in the Bible inherit the promises of God? We'll come to it. We'll come to a beautiful passage, Hebrews 11, where we'll have the list of so many different people who walked into the promises of God of various kinds. How did they do it? He shows us two elements. One is faith. Of course, without faith, it's impossible to please God. Without faith, it's impossible to serve God the way he wants to be served. But secondly, patience. Patience, where we are continuing through the struggles and through the difficulties. We need both faith. Sometimes we have a lot of faith, but zero patience. It won't work. And sometimes we're just persevering patience, but no faith. Will God do something? I don't know. I'm just doing the right thing. It's showing that we lack faith in God. But both of these are so necessary. Have faith and also have patience. These are the two things that have helped people to walk into the promises of God. And we can be those people. Whatever it is that God wants us to accomplish in our lives, as long as we journey with these two things, we will be able to step into those promises. But if we are discouraged, then what happens? It seems like that in what the writer is saying here. Maybe the people were serving God and going through the opposition, the persecution, the lack, and they became discouraged. What can discouragement do to the service of a minister or a believer? The writer says here, sluggish. Sometimes we become so weary where we are serving, but there's no passion. There's no zeal. There's no hope in our serving. We are doing because it's the right thing to do. But God does not want that attitude. So the writer is telling them, I know you're discouraged, but don't allow that to make you sluggish. Continue to trust that God is not unjust. He will surely reward us. And with faith, with patience, like those who have already inherited the promises of God, let's keep our lives in check and aligned. Alright, let's move on now to the next section here. Again, he's talking about how faithful God is. So that's the essence of the next section. Could somebody please read from verse 13 to verse 18? For when God made a promise to Abraham because he could swear by no one greater, he swore by himself, saying, Surely, blessing I will bless you and multiplying I will multiply you. And so after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men indeed swear by the greater and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God determining to show how abundantly to the cares of promise, the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath that by two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast and which enters the presence behind the veil where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus having become high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. Thank you Rosalind. So along what we are saying now, encouraging them to have faith and patience. Don't become sluggish because of your discouragement. He goes on to tell us how firm and certain God's word is. So he takes us back to the promise that God made to Abraham and when God said something to Abraham. What was the word that he stated here in verse 14? He says surely blessing I will bless you and multiplying I will multiply you. We also noticed that there was nobody else required to back up God's word at that time. God's word was enough by itself. So today we understand that when we are stating something about ourselves, sometimes we have to get it authorized by a lawyer, some statement that one has made or a change of name or a change of place, but it needs an authorization by a legal body or a person in authority only then it becomes valid. But when it comes to God, whatever he says, it's so certain, it's so true. We don't even have to worry. And at the time when God blessed Abraham and said, look, Abraham, I am going to bless you. I am going to multiply you. There was no need for a backup of any sort by anyone else because God's word is true in itself. It has integrity in itself. And going back to the example of Abraham in verse 15, it says that Abraham, he received the promise of God. He was very blessed, his children, his descendants were very blessed. But how did that happen? It just did not happen only by faith. Yes, Abraham is our father of faith, but we also know about his patience. There were instances where he had to trust God, wait on the Lord 25 years. He waited for one son and even after that son came, there was a test given to him. He trusted God enough to sacrifice Isaac. So there are many other things in the life of Abraham that reveal his patience to us. So it's a reminder for us as believers. Sometimes we feel God is not moving fast enough, quick enough. But there are examples in the word of God for us who took God at his word. And they had faith in God. They also employed patience. And that's when they actually walked into the promises of God. And we too should be patient. Exercise our faith, but be patient. Surely God is true. His word is true. And it says here that, you know, in verse 17, notice it says the... Okay, I'll read the whole passage. Thus God determined to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel confirmed it by an oath. So immutability of his counsel refers to how unshakable God's word is. What he said, it stands. So it's immutable. It cannot be changed. It's very sure. It's very pure. And in verse 18, that by two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. So once again, we are told that God's word is certain. That's the essence. I'm just going with the essence of what this passage is saying that God's word is true. Stay focused on it. Be confident about it. Surely it will happen and have patience. Okay. Right. Verse 19, which says this hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast and which enters the presence behind the veil. So this is revealing to us the function of hope or hoping in God in moments of discouragement. One of the first things that gets affected is our hope. We just become so hopeless. What we don't have any hope for the future for good things to happen in our lives. So that is the nature of discouragement. It just sucks the hope out of our lives. But the author is encouraging the believers that we need to have hope. If there's no hope in life, we are like a ship that is floating in the sea or the ocean. No direction. We're just like, okay, we exist here right now. There's no storm. So I'm still there and the storm happens. I don't know what's going to happen in that kind of a life. We may have in God, but that's not what God wants for us. We've all got to live with hope. So today I just want to ask us this question. What is the hope that we carry in our hearts for ourselves? Our personal growth, our family life, our finances. Is there any hope? Do we have any hope? Are we hoping that we are heading towards this or one day it will be like this in my home, in my family, in my health, in my ministry, in my church? I hope there is hope, okay? Because if there is no hope, then what does the scripture say? It says, there's no anchor for the soul. Hope is the anchor of the soul. You've got to have hope in our soul, birthed by God. When we have that, then what happens? There is some grip that we have in our lives for our soul. And it's also saying, both sure and steadfast and which enters the presence behind the veil. It's kind of, I've heard somebody say this when this last portion, right? It says, which enters the presence behind the veil. It is talking about the Holy of Holies in the temple worship. There was a place where one would go into the presence of God and that is the Holy of Holies. And here it says that hope is the anchor of the soul. First of all, it gives us some steadiness in our life. Secondly, our hope is felt in the presence of God or rather God feels it. God senses our hope is what the author is saying. So it's very beautiful. When we are in the presence of God, God also senses what we are carrying in our hearts, what we are believing in for in our hearts. And the author is saying, don't become so discouraged that there is no hope. There's no sense of that steadiness in God where we are trusting that surely one day all these things are going to take place in different areas of my life. And even in the presence of God, in the very presence of God, when we encounter God, God also senses that hope that we carry and that hope that makes us steady. So keep hope alive. It's so beautiful. We can talk so much about this passage. It says it's the anchor. It's the anchor. Hope gives us steadiness. If you've ever looked at stories of people who've gone through maybe a huge crisis in their lives. But when people keep hope alive in the crisis situation, maybe they lost all their finances. But as long as they have hope, we hear stories of them rebuilding their whole, their company and their business and once again shining or maybe something happened in their family. But they stand up again and they're able to see God work. But what if a person loses hope because of the crisis, the discouragement? It's very unfortunate. They may not be able to do much because they've lost the anchor itself. It's quite dangerous actually to live hopelessly without having our hope in God. And later we will see when we come to Hebrews 11, we'll see that hope is the precursor of faith. Because in Hebrews 11 1, we'll see faith is the substance of things hoped for. So there's got to be some things that we are hoping for. If you're not hoping for anything, there's no question of faith. So hope is attached to faith and there's got to be hope in our lives. And godly hope, not just fantasizing about different things. And verse 20, he says, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus having become high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. So going back to the temple worship practices, we know that the high priest was the one who was permitted to go into the Holy of Holies. But in our case, Jesus being our eternal high priest, our high priest forever has already gone into the presence of God. And the word forerunner is used because forerunner in military terms is a person who goes ahead of everybody else and the others follow. So what did we read? Our high priest has gone up into the presence of God. That's something we've seen earlier in the book of Hebrews. He's gone into heaven itself, the very presence of God. And that's the high priest whom we have. He's already gone into the presence of God and he's the one who leads us into the presence of God. And when we call him the forerunner as a high priest, which order does he belong to? We've talked about this earlier as well. He's of the order of Melchizedek. So I'll stop right here. If there's any discussions regarding what we have spoken so far, we can take that up. If not, we can pray and close and we'll start with chapter 7 in the next class. I just want to know if I'm understanding what you're trying to say. In verse 17 it says, sorry, in verse 18 it says that by two immutable things, so in verse 17 it says immutability of this council and conformed by a move. So that you are in immutable things for the council and the oath. I'm on my right. Thank you, Jafina. Thank you for asking that question. So in verse 17, as of promise, the immutability of his council, immutability of his council is separate from what verse 18 is talking about over here. Now coming to verse 18, that by two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. So once again, I'm going to show you to the as of promise, immutability of his council. So there are two things that we can anchor our faith to. One, I think you're right. It is the promise of the immutability of his council, immutability of his council. And second is, it is impossible for God to lie. So two things, one is the word of God and the second is the character of God. So the immutability of his promises that God's word is truth, whatever he says is truth. Secondly, in God's character, he cannot do anything that's evil, one of which is lie. So based on his word and based on his character, we can have hope in God. Sorry for that confusion. So all this is just encouraging us to have hope in God and hope is the anchor of the soul and hope goes into the presence behind the veil where our forerunner, Lord Jesus has also gone and is of the order of Melchizedek. So if that's the last question, we can pray and close up. Okay, let's pray. I would like to request someone from our class to please lead in prayer. Anyone who can unmute and pray please. Thank you Lord for the session that we had. Thank you for the teachings that we went through. Help us to have patience and hope in you along with faith so that we may please you in our walk with you. We also thank you for our dear pastor Nancy. We ask you to bless her even more and keep her in good health as she serves you. Thank you Lord for hearing us in Jesus mighty name, victory. Amen. Thank you Rosalind. Thank you everyone. God bless you. We'll get back into our classes next week. So yeah, see you then. Bye.


The dividend discount model takes a simple assumption that the growth rate or the G will be constant forever whereas a firm across its life cycle stages passes through with different dividend profiles at each of the stage. Now these life cycle stages for the firm includes its early stage, its maturity stage and its terminal or declining stage. So far as the firm's early stage is concerned during this period there are ample profitable reinvestment opportunities in the firm itself but there are lower payouts for the shareholders by the firm correspondingly there are rapid growth in the firm. So far as the firm's later stage is concerned during this particular period of time the firm matures it has sufficient production capacity to meet the current market demand. Competitors are entering into the market it is harder for the firm to find attractive reinvestment opportunities so the company goes for higher dividend payout ratios and that reduces the dividend growth rate. Now during this scenario we can say that the multi-stage dividend discount model can be used to value a higher growth company. In multi-stage dividend discount models the simplest model is the two-stage model. This model works under two steps to value a particular firm and first step the present value of all dividends in the initial growth period is determined and in the second stage the constant dividend growth dividend discount model is used to value the remaining dividend stream of the dividends projected for a steady growth phase. Now to understand the application of two-stage growth model we have an example where we have dividend per share for four years from 2017 to 2020. Now we have forecast for 2020 in terms of dividend payout ratio that is 0.53 and ROE that is 19.5%. This means that we have a long term growth rate or the G here in this particular case and that G is equal to 9%. Now to determine the intrinsic value for 2016 we need to capitalize the dividend for 2017, dividend for 2018, dividend for 2019, dividend for 2020 and the sale price of the stock for the year 2020. We have four years cash flows here we need to capitalize these cash flows at the discount rate of the company's opportunity cost of capital but in our example the K or the discount rate is missing so we have to find it out. Now before finding the K we need to determine the stock price for the year 2020 which is not palatable in the question to determine the stock price for the year 2020. We need to use the constant growth dividend discount model. The formula is dividend for 2020 or D2020 over K minus G, D2020 we can find it out by multiplying the D2020 with the growth rate. But for K again we have no value but for G we have the value of 9% we have determined earlier. Now to determine the value of K we can use the KPM model. For KPM we have certain variables with us where risk free rate on long term tree rebonds which is equal to 2.5% market risk premium we have forecast it for 8%. The company's beta is 1.10 now using these values into the KPM model we have the value of K and that is equal to 11.3% now we will be using this K value in P 2020 to determine the stock price for the year 2020 and that comes to 75.83. Now we have determined the stock price at the end of year 2020 we can use this value into our dividend discount formula to determine the stock price for the year 2016 and that comes to 53.74 so with a little reverse calculation we have come to year 2016 and the price at this particular time of 2016 we have determined which is equal to 53.74 now assume actual stock price in year 2016 as 30.98 this means that now the stock is underpriced but if the actual growth rate in post 2020 period is 7% then the V0 for 2016 will be 29.93 and for that value the stock is overpriced so what we can conclude from these two computations we see that stock valuation needs to go for sensitivity analysis because the assumptions used to determine these inputs must be carefully examined by the investment analyst any small change in the input may yield intrinsic value substantially different from what it would be now we have multi-stage growth models such models allow a dividend purchase to grow at many rates as the firm matures many analysts under this particular case use three stage growth models assuming an initial period of high dividend growth a final period of sustainable growth and a transitional period between during which the dividend growth rates taper from initial high rate to the ultimate sustainable rate now to understand the multi-stage growth model we have an extended example here and in this extended example we have certain inputs for the company in the form of beta market risk premium risk rate cost of equity and the growth rate we have yearly data from 2017 to 2032 and the accompanied dividend per share we have here then we use the growth rate we see that the growth for initial phase is till 2021 which is 15.44 percent and the growth for the terminal year is only 6 percent and between these two growth rates the growth rate is declining during that transitional period now using these values we can determine the value of the dividend for the year 2032 and that is 103.57 dollars then we need to convert these values into the cash flows and we have the accompanied cash flows from 2017 to 2032 and the present value of these cash flows is equal to 35.7 dollars and this is basically V naught or the stock price of the company's stock for year 2017 and this we have computed using the constant dividend discount model


My name is Kevin, I'm a corporal with Boise Police. I've been there pushing 19 years, 13 years on our SWAT team. So, November 11th, right, Veterans Day, was the day that I got shot. I'll tell you how it went down. The guy that shot me, he was in for burglary. He gets out and I guess he thought that his family had snitched on him.  The next day, we get a carjacking at a planet fitness. Dude, yanks her out, 89 years old, throws her on the ground, takes her car. So, November 11th, one of our detectives is off duty and this is a lot of cavity, looks over to his right, sees the guy, he goes into a neighborhood and the troops are just swarming the area. We find his car abandoned in this neighborhood. Our biggest concern is innocence. We gotta try to get this guy and this guy without a doubt would take somebody hostage. So we started doing a yard to yard open air search in broad daylight with this guy who's already shot two people. We're using Jardo as our canine. We use him every time because he's real quiet. And so Jardo, we were sending him in the backyard and we're kinda searching behind him. We think he's gonna be in the backyard of this last house on the south side of the block.   He was squatted down on his feet and I looked down at the corner of my eye and he had his gun up just like that and that split second. He went pop and the first shot went underneath my body armor that far because he was so low. Boom went right in my lower back and immediately that fast I was paralyzed and I knew it. I went face down, boom. He stands up and shoots me four more times and this is all in a split second. Right when he stands up and he starts shooting me, Jardo comes flying in and bites the guy up here and spins him around a little bit and probably put about a five second delay in him shooting me in the head and I would think he shoots Jardo and ultimately kills him. That's when some guys came up and got some angles and they let him have it. They scooped me up and threw me in the back of the bear cat. We didn't wait for an ambulance. Our tac med was great and we went to the hospital. I ultimately had to make the decision to remove my leg. They were doing surgery after surgery and it was getting kind of infected and I'll tell you what, that's pretty hairy saying I want you to cut it off. Two days later, I was in amputee. I'm staying at Craig hospital. It's the best without a doubt, spinal cord, rehab facility they have in the world really and I'm really blessed to be there. The place is amazing for regaining strength. The therapy is very, very regimented. All day long, man. And when you get done, you're smoked at the end of the day, it's really hard. Our chief came to me and he said, you know, Kevin, I don't care if it's three months, six months or eight months. You have a position here when you get back, just make yourself right. I'll be the most badass wheelchair guy at Boise PD. I may not be able to walk and I may not be able to put a uniform on and I may not be blasting doors open at four in the morning anymore, but I'm alive. I'm still gonna do everything that I can do. It may be a little bit different, but for the most part, man, I'm gonna do it and I'm gonna try as hard as I can.


Hi everyone, thanks for joining this presentation on zero communication reductions. My name is Varun Narayanan and this is a joint work with Manoj Prabhagaran and Vinod Prabhagaran. In cryptography we use several information theoretic primitives like secret sharing, randomized encodings, private information retrieval or PIR, conditional disclosure of secrets or CDS, etc. These primitives are often simple to define and abstract out the essence of various cryptographic problems. They have been extensively studied over the years and are immensely useful in cryptographic constructions with information theoretic or computational security. In this talk, we introduce a novel information theoretic primitive called zero communication reductions or ZCR for short. ZCR is a bare bones model of two-party secure computation. As we shall see, it ties together various other primitives like CDS and private simultaneous messages protocols or PSM and secure two-party computation. It yields new upper bounds and lower bounds for them and also leads us to new open problems and directions. Our contribution is in three parts. Our first contribution is definitional. We define ZCR with varying levels of security and establish it as a central object in information theoretic cryptography with connections to several other important cryptographic models. We obtain new upper bounds for PSM, CDS and secure computation. All of these upper bounds follow from upper bounds for ZCR, thanks to its central nature. In some cases, this gives us an exponential improvement over known results. In the other direction, we also show that lower bounds on secure ZCR complexity will yield lower bounds for secure computation. Let me elaborate on the upper and lower bound results before getting into the definition of ZCR. Our upper bounds apply to complexity of PSM and CDS and to the number of oblivious transfers or OTs needed for secure two-party computation. All the upper bounds are obtained via an upper bound on ZCR in terms of information complexity, allowing a small constant statistical error. Our construction uses some recent advances in communication complexity literature. Specifically, we use the connection between information complexity and relaxed partition bound shown by Kerenidis et al in 2015. Interestingly, in that work, Kerenidis et al also defined a model of zero communication protocols. Our notion of zero communication reduction could be seen as a significant generalization of their model. Our upper bounds sometimes give an exponential improvement over existing constructions for PSM, CDS, and 2PC. A concrete example is the bursting noise function, which was introduced by Ganar, Kohl, and Raz in 2015 as a function with very low information complexity, exponentially smaller than its communication complexity. On the lower bound front, lower bounds are notoriously hard to obtain for many of these information theoretic primitives. For OT complexity, the best known lower bound are due to BMEL and Malkin from 2004, and since then there has been no improvement. We can recover these linear lower bounds using the connection to secure ZCR. Further, we present a new linear algebraic complexity measure for a function that can potentially lead to improvements. Our new complexity measure is what we call the invertible rank, which is defined for a matrix representing a function. A super linear bound on invertible rank of a function's matrix would imply super linear lower bound for its OT complexity. Such bounds will also imply lower bounds for circuit complexity and PIR due to their known connections with OT complexity. One may view that as a barrier for proving stronger lower bounds for invertible rank, but we can still pursue OT complexity, lower bounds by avoiding these barriers by focusing on existential results or focusing on randomized functions where such barriers do not apply. One can also hope that our new complexity measure could give a fresh approach to tackling some of these barriers. We present a purely linear algebraic conjecture called the invertible rank conjecture as a concrete target to prove or disprove without running into any known barriers. However, a constructive proof of this conjecture would need to break circuit complexity lower bound barriers. Okay, now let me tell you what a zero communication reduction is. It is a really simple model for a two-party secure computation, where as the name suggests, the two parties do not communicate at all. In a zero communication reduction of a function f to a predicate phi, Alice and Bob have inputs x and y. Based on the input, each party locally produces a candidate output along with an input to the predicate phi. The candidate output of Alice is A and her input to the predicate is U. Similarly for Bob, the candidate output is B and the input to the predicate is V. We require that the predicate accepts with a minimum probability for all inputs. This is the non-triviality condition. Additionally, the candidate outputs are required to be correct whenever the predicate decides to accept. This is the correctness condition. When the predicate accepts with probability at least two to the minus mu for all inputs, we call it a mu CCR of the function f to predicate phi. The smaller the value of mu, the better the zero communication reduction in that the predicate is accepted more often. We will also consider the setting where Alice and Bob have access to a correlation psi, which is of course independent of the inputs that could help the parties to coordinate. A correlation of particular interest is common randomness. CCR definition can be strengthened with varying levels of security. We study ZCR, weakly secure ZCR and strongly secure ZCR or simply secure ZCR. A ZCR has no notion of security and only needs to satisfy non-triviality and correctness conditions. Weakly secure ZCR or WZCR additionally requires that the inputs are hidden from an adversary who can see the decision of the predicate. The probability with which the predicate accepts needs to be the same for all inputs. In strongly secure ZCR, the adversary can also corrupt Alice or Bob. To ensure security against the corruption of Alice, the view of Alice must be similable. That is, for any input X, Y, the joint distribution over R, U and the decision of the predicate must be similable using only Alice's input and her correct output. A similar security requirement should also hold for Bob. We now illustrate zero communication reduction with an example. We know that every functionality where Alice computes F sub A and Bob computes F sub B can be reduced to the an predicate using common randomness. The reduction proceeds as follows. The parties will interpret the common randomness as a uniformly random input pair, X hat, Y hat over here. Alice's candidate output is F sub A of X hat comma Y hat and her input to the predicate is one if her input X matches X hat and this is zero otherwise. Bob also uses a similar strategy. The predicate accepts if and only if X hat equal to X and Y hat equal to Y. This happens with probability one upon the domain size of the functionality. And clearly the outputs are correct whenever the predicate accepts. The scheme is also weakly secure because the probability of accept is the same for all inputs, but it is not strongly secure since the parties learn each other's inputs. We will later see non trivial constructions of secure CCR. Next we present our upper bounds in more detail. The main theorem in this section can be stated as follows for any epsilon greater than zero. There is an upper bound of two to the information complexity of the function F for all the following quantities. The communication complexity of epsilon statistical PSM of the function F OT complexity of epsilon statistical two party computation of the function F and the communication complexity of the epsilon statistical CDS with FS predicate here. We are using the notion of inner information complexity. It is defined as the, it is defined as this information theoretic quantity minimized over all protocols with error at most epsilon under the worst distribution over inputs. Our construction follows the following sequence of connections. We use the bound on relax partition using information complexity of the function. Which we describe in a previous slide. We then construct a WZCR from the relax partition. And finally show CDS PSM and two PC protocols can be constructed using the WZCR. In fact, this can be done from a ZCR itself. To provide the intuition behind this construction, we show a weaker result and upper bound on communication complexity of statistical PSM in terms of tiling number. Tiling is a partitioning of the truth table of a function into monochromatic rectangles rectangles monochromatic if the functions value remains constant inside the rectangle and the color denotes the value of the function. Tiling number of function is the smallest number of tiles needed to tile it tile the function. Given a tiling we construct an epsilon PSM protocol. The protocol will be in the order of the number of tiles in the given tiling. Our first step is to construct a WZCR of the function to the and predicate using common randomness. This construction is quite straightforward. Alison Bob interpret the common randomness as a uniformly random tile. Each party sense accept to the predicate if their input belongs to the tile that showed up as the common randomness. This is the color of the tile as their candidate output. Since the and predicate accepts if both parties are in the same tile the output is correct on accept. And this is a WZCR as the accept probability is one upon the total number of tiles for any input. The WZCR can be repeated enough times to boost up the acceptance probability to one minus epsilon. We can securely choose the output of the first CCR amongst these reputations that was accepted using an efficient PSM protocol. Indeed our constructions of CDS protocol and two PC protocols using WZCR also are similar to this construction. Our final construction is a generalization of this construction. Consider the notion of the partition complexity, which is a generalization of tiling. Here we want to put weights on monochromatic tiles in such a way that every input XY is covered by tiles of weight one. The goal will be to minimize total weight overall tiles. We show that any partition of a function corresponds to a WZCR with complexity related to the partition complexity. Here a relaxation of the partition complexity called relax partition complexity implies a statistical WZCR. We then use this statistical WZCR to build protocols for PSM, CDS and two PC along the lines of our previous construction. The complexity of such protocols would be exponential in the complexity of the WZCR. Now follows by appealing to the result that shows that relax partition is upper bounded by two to the information complexity of the function. We now move on to our results on the lower bounds on OT complexity. Our main result in this section shows a construction of a strongly secure ZCR using two party secure computation protocol. Here we show that using a two PC protocol for an NBIT function, which uses MOT correlations. We can construct an SCCR that uses common randomness and reduces the function to an M plus one OT support check predicate. This predicate checks if its input are in the support of M plus one OT correlations. The complexity of SCCR is in the order of the size of the function and OT complexity of the protocol. The theorem implies that a lower bound on SCCR complexity or the size of the support check predicate implies a lower bound on OT complexity. The theorem has two important consequences. Firstly, we can use it to recover the best known lower bound on OT complexity, which is linear in the input size of the function. Secondly, due to the simplicity of SCCR model, it allows a purely linear algebraic characterization. We use this characterization to define a quantity called invertibility, invertible rank of the true table of a function. A bound on invertible rank would imply a bound on the OT complexity of the function. Finally, we give an overview of our construction of SCCR using two party secure computation protocol. Our goal is to use a protocol with small OT complexity to construct an SCCR using common randomness with high acceptance probability to a low complexity predicate. The construction uses the following intuition. In, if for all inputs, the parties can sample appropriate transcripts and OT correlation, they can use them to produce the outputs locally without communicating with each other. How do we go about sampling transcripts and OT correlations without communicating? Parties can agree on a transcript using common randomness, but since they cannot communicate, it is impossible to sample valid OTs. But instead, they can attempt to independently sample their own part of the OT and use their OT support check predicate to abort whenever they make invalid choices. The party can locally compute their output using their view of the in the protocol that consists of input transcript and OT correlation. The following idea is at the core of the way Alice and Bob samples their transcript and OT correlation in this kind of construction. The communication protocols naturally decouple the joint distribution of Alice and Bob's view in the following sense. The probability of any transcript Q condition on inputs and OT correlations is actually the product of two functions, row and sigma that depends only on what Alice sees and what Bob sees respectively. Note that row and sigma here are not probabilities themselves, but they are positive functions whose product forms a probability distribution. Here is an informal overview of the construction of SCCR from a two-party secure computation using M-copies of OT. While Bob interpreted the common randomness as a random transcript, Alice then samples her side of M-copies of OT correlations, say R, with probability proportional to row of Q, R, X. She then chooses her candidate output based on her transcript, her side of the OT correlations and her input. Similarly, the predicate accepts when all the M-copies of OTs chosen by Alice and Bob are valid. When the predicate accepts, that is the sampled OT correlations are valid, the correctness follows from the correctness of the two-party secure computation protocol. It also inherits its security from the protocol whenever the predicate accepts. The construction almost works, but with the caveat that the acceptance probability varies across inputs. Our final construction fixes this issue by making Alice and Bob send out BOT to the predicate with appropriate probability that depends on their input. The predicate now does an M-plus 1-th check to see if the user has sent a BOT. This concludes the construction. In conclusion, we introduced a minimalistic model of secure computation, which is combinatorially simpler than communication protocols. The simplicity of the model allows for connections to several well-studied models of secure computation. We could use them to show upper bounds on PSM, CDS and OT complexity in terms of information complexity. We also showed that it provides new routes for attacking the problem of lower bounding OT complexity of two-party computation. This concludes the talk. Thank you.


I am Patsal, I am the principal and CTO here at 100XBC and I am today attending the Entrepreneur India event 2023 in Delhi. This was a fantastic event, very well organized and on time and I met a bunch of amazing startups at this event, super super fun meeting founders and entrepreneurs who are building the future of the world and obviously I had a great panel discussion as well with co-panelists, some really great insights and questions so overall I had a really great time. We're bullish on the space, we believe you know the bear cycle is when the most of the innovation happens. As we all know the next Bitcoin halving is coming in 2024, June. So we're still actively seeking for strongly fundamental Web3 projects, strongly on-chain projects which are looking to kind of build the future of the world and create innovations which are out there. So we're very bullish, we believe funding will pick up by mid of 2024 and things will change.


Perfect. Thank you all for joining on time, so nothing better to do. All right. Well, welcome everybody. This is the weekly TSE call. It is a public event. Anybody is welcome to come and listen in or even contribute. If you have interesting things to say, there are two requirements to doing so, though. The first one is to be aware and lead by the antitrust policy, the notice of which is being displayed if you're connected online on Zoom. And the other part is the code of conduct, which you should be familiar with. It's linked from the agenda and invite you to have a look if you have never looked at it before, but essentially just ask you to behave like a decent human being and respect everybody else. So with that said, let's get going with the meeting person proper. I haven't heard of any announcements. Is there any that anybody wants to make now? Okay. I don't see anybody jumping up and saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, please. So let's move on. In terms of quarterly reports, I'm still waiting a report from the Kaliper project. I don't know if anybody from the project is on, but please let them know. We did receive a report from the Avalon project. I saw earlier that it seems like most DSC members looked at it. I haven't seen any questions being posted. Is there any questions? And I don't know if Eugene is on, but if there's any comments as well from the project that they want to highlight, there was no TSE questions raised in the report. So I think that's pretty much, there is not much else to say about this. So with that done, first thing we really have to do today is a bit of housekeeping. Rai, who always is busy to keep us on top of things. Thank you for that, Rai. I pointed out that the, we actually moved the project composer to, we deprecated the composer six months ago, and according to a project life cycle, after six months, if nothing happened, the next step is to move it to end of life. I actually did check with one of the maintainers, Simon Stone from my BM, who says he's fine with that. So with that, you know, I mean, I'm not aware of any reason not to do this. And as Dan pointed out in his email to the list earlier, I think it's a good thing for us to practice a project life cycle. And it's a show, it's a, you know, to me, it shows the maturity of the project to be able to get those projects moving. And so with that further ado, I would like to propose that we do move the project composer to end of life. Is there any comments or questions in this regard? Okay, hearing none. I think we can just do a year on a call, but somebody should second the motion. Second. I'll second it. Mark. All right. So can anybody in favor of moving composer to end of life says hi. Hi. Hi. Anybody abstaining. Please raise your voice. Hang on. Anybody objecting to this. Okay. Hearing none. This is anonymously approved. Thank you. So this is the first time we do this, by the way. So I don't mean to celebrate per se, you know, moving a project to end of life. But again, I think it's a, it's a good sign that we do this. I think we're able to go through this process. So from that point of view, I do think it's, there's some kind of celebration behind this. Okay. So with that done, there is really only one agenda item, which is the long-term agenda slash framing question. We already talked quite a bit about this. We had a presentation a couple of weeks ago. I didn't see much discussion to say this either on the mailing list on the wiki. There was a little bit of a discussion on the, on the rocket chat channel after the meeting. And it was kind of between during the meeting. And then it bleed off a little bit longer, but I also had a couple of discussion with people. And I mean, my view on this is that we could, you know, there's general agreement again, that this would be a good thing is to hide, to identify gaps and, and possible areas of coordination between the projects. This has always been true. And I haven't heard anything to the contrary. I think the challenge remains to identify, you know, exactly what we could do. I saw, for instance, Chris, I mean, we talked about the programming language, you know, the choice of different programming languages, making it difficult for certain components to be reused. And especially when the components are in the form of libraries. And so Chris, I think at the end of the call pointed out one area that could be prone to maybe some collaboration between the projects is the SDK, because indeed from an application point of view, at a high level, you know, at a level high enough, at the end of the day, just connect to a, you connect to a network and you submit a transaction and you wait for the receipt.  And so if you take it high enough, this should be pretty much universal. And it could be an area where we could indeed have some kind of like common project on defining some kind of common SDK API, that all the project could then adopt and implement on top of whatever they have today.  I think we've kind of gone around this quite a bit already. And unless somebody has an urge to bring up something that they think will make a difference, I don't care to have more of that. I am interested in hearing if anybody has some concrete proposal. And if not, I would say one thing we could do is, you know, along the lines of the proposal Chris made with we're getting the SDK is kind of start building a list. And we don't have to do that now online necessarily. We could do that offline, but kind of build a list of the different projects that could be taken up. There's another idea I'll just throw it in now. And I was discussing this offline with Chris. And it was, you know, I think there is some lost opportunity sometimes when projects take on new tasks, new developments, it would be easier at that time to have some cross projects coordination or collaboration on developing common code. If this happened early and because once you have code that already does fulfill your needs, it's the cost of switching to another library or component is much higher. And people tend to be entrenched. And unless there is a significant gain from switching, it's just easier to stay with what you have. And so one idea that came up in our discussion was maybe, I think most projects now have an RFC of our RFC process where new ideas are being debated put before the project community. And maybe if we could advertise those more widely across Hyperledger, it would at least signal to the other projects, hey, this project, whatever it is, you know, is looking into this area. And if you have an interest, this would be a good time to express this and maybe rally forces around doing something that's not limited to a single project that can take into account other projects' needs. And that would become more natural.  We would do that preemptively by, you know, encouraging corporate or making, allowing, you know, these opportunities for cooperation to happen more naturally earlier. So I've talked enough, I'm going to shut up now and let you guys react to any of the above. No reactions whatsoever. I don't believe that. Oh, I think you pretty much captured my thoughts. All right. Yeah, I agree with Chris and that in with you. And I think the big thing is just to make sure that people are aware of what other people are doing in the project. Yeah. And in this regard again, I mean, we have these quarterly reports and it does give us a little bit of insights as to what's going on. Project do say, hey, we're focusing, you know, what's coming next? We're doing this and that, but that, you know, I'm not sure we all pay attention enough to this, or if comes in a form that makes it easy for people to realize, oh, they are starting this. This is an opportunity maybe to cooperate. And so I think we should discuss a practical way of highlighting again, maybe the RFC, the start of an RFC is a good time, or some kind of signaling that would be stronger that would allow this collaboration to happen if there is any chance. And it could be, you know, the kind of things I'm thinking about is either we make it more obvious in those reports, but maybe every quarter is not in often enough. Maybe we ask the projects to send an email to the TSCG saying, hey, watch out. You know, the fabric project is tackling this. We have a new RFC. I don't know. And maybe there are other ideas that we are happy to hear from you guys what you think, but. No, I think you're exactly right. And I think the RFC is the right way to do it because you want, you know, it's much easier to collaborate if you haven't started yet, I guess. Yes. Right.  RFC for project Prubar. Covering XYZ. You know, it would be one way of at least raising a little bit more awareness. I don't know if we need to sort of then just sort of.  You might want to take a look at them. You know, just, you know, because I think a lot of times we just get sort of so caught up in our own concerns, their own day job and our own priorities and stuff. And you don't have time to look sideways. Well, and this is where I think the process is helpful, but the more important question is, how do we make it compelling? Cause, you know, a lot of the maintainers that really could use that overlap in that discussion, you know, don't usually pay much attention to the TSC calls. Right. Do we do something like an RSC chat channel? Where people who, you know, so if you have an idea, you could post it there and get reaction. I mean, if people knew to look there, then, you know, there's a better chance they would see it. Yeah. I think a chat channel is too, too noisy. I don't know. I'd rather have an email sent to the least personally. Or we could have a wiki page that points to things, but you don't want to duplicate the whole RSC process either. So. I believe that you can subscribe to notices for a repo.  So I think you could, could control that yourself. Yeah, but I don't know if we can rely on that. Unfortunately, because I mean already today, anybody could just follow what every other project does, right? But it's just, that's too much. It's hard. I mean, I only know Brian who subscribed to all the mailing list. Yeah. And I guess the thing is, if I'm watching RFCs, you know, I don't want to see say like every RFC that fabric does, I want to see the ones that are relevant to me, right? Well, but how do you, how does anybody know which ones are relevant to you? That's what I'm curious. Yeah. Yeah.  Yeah. So I'm just wondering what the best way to, to be my own filter is that's all. Right. That's how I was sort of suggesting though, is, you know, new RFC foobar project X covering and then just, you know, really just a one liner. What is it? So you don't have to open the thing up and read through five pages of stuff to figure out that it's not interesting. Yeah. That's a great idea. I mean, if you just say like this RFC, you know, affects X, Y and Z and these are general topic areas. And if I'm interested in X, Y or Z, I can dig deeper. And if not, then I just read one sentence and move on. I think that's a good idea, Chris. But so where do you see, where do you find this, Chris? I don't know. I mean, it could be an email to, you know, the TSC, it could be an email to, I think there's a maintainers channel now. It could be, you know, somebody suggested a chat channel. I think that was Nate. That might be a good idea. I don't know. Certainly I think that the RFC process needs to stay inside the projects where it's happening now. I think moving those RFCs somewhere else would be difficult. No, I'm not saying to move them. I'm just saying to, when you create one that it, I mean, and that actually could be, automated, right?  Yeah, I was, I was wondering if maybe just like we're doing promoted releases, maybe we could have promoted RFCs where a project says, Hey, this is something we would like comments from the broader community for, or this is something that's significant enough to us that we want people to understand what that is happening now. That way we could tag them or send them to whatever forum we think is appropriate for it. I, I, I just, well. Interesting. The challenge I think though is that I don't know that. It's easy for the maintainers to understand what might be. Interesting to somebody else, right?  Top of the head here, but. You know, let's just say that.  We're going to go off and we're going to change the. You know, swap out the, the consensus for a BFT. And it could be that other projects were also similarly considering that, but, you know, maybe, you know, that's a little bit bigger than a bread box, but you get the point I'm trying to make is that you don't know what that is. They may not have put out an RFC or whatever. And so that may be interesting to them. If you're starting something new, that they're starting to sort of mumble about is what I'm saying. So another similar type of thing. You know, and it was, I think it was Mick who sent, no heart sent the mail out about the lab, Biff. We don't, you don't necessarily have a lot of visibility into what's going on in the labs. And I think, you know, some of these labs turn into projects, which turn into libraries or whatever. So is there a way to increase awareness of the labs? On a regular basis. So, you know, I think it was Mick who sent, no heart sent the mail out about the lab, Biff. We don't, you don't necessarily have a lot of visibility into what's going on on a regular basis. So people know what's going on down there, at least with the active ones. Because that would be the time to get the stuff in, right? When they're starting to form it. Yeah, I have to say on the lab front, it reminds, your point mark reminds me that we had started doing reports. I say we, the stewards, and I have to admit Tracy did all the work. So she really deserves the credit, but she did it on our behalf. I'm one of the stewards of our essay. We, and I don't think we really have been very good at doing this on a regular basis. But if we did get better at doing a lab report where we kind of say, hey, this is the status, you know, you had the new projects. We had so many and we retired this one and that kind of stuff. That would provide us a report we could point to. You know, I think that could be advertised publicized to like the maintainers community so they could be more informed about what's going on there. I do think, you know, what the point to Chris made about sending this to the maintainers list or channel or whatever. It reminded me, sending it to the TSE may not be good enough because we want really the maintainers to be aware of this big overlap between the two. But it's obviously not all the maintainers on the TSE and not maybe not all the TSE members are maintainers. And so that we, I don't know that the TSE is a good, is the right target for that. But probably should be involved in some way, but maybe it has to be both the TSE and the maintainers. We do have a maintainers mailing list. That's basically unused. There are other options. You know, we could set up a yet another mailing list, right? We could have an RFC announce mailing list if you want to follow other, if you want to participate, go here. But even though that would, you know, give you a much easier ability to fill through the mail, it's yet another mailing list to lose track of what to do. So I don't have any strong feelings about that, just an idea. That might not be a bad idea. And we could subscribe the TSE and the maintainers list to it. I wonder if we could just use the maintainers list directly just because it's not that high traffic now, is it? No, no, that's right says there's nothing going on. So I agree we could use it for that. Question is, if the TSE members were not maintainers, want to follow what's going on? I think it'd be good for the TSE to also be aware. You can join the maintainers group. Because like I was a part of the maintainers group and I just joined in. So it's not limited to the maintainers? No. But so that's a pretty good solution. So we can use the maintainers list and have whoever is on the TSE is not a maintainer currently and maintainers list can join. And then we can make it policy that when projects take on new RFCs, they should announce it to the maintainers list. So the other advantage of this is that for somebody who wants to just come in and start working on a project that RFC announcement list gives them a really good idea about the kinds of things that are happening in the places that they could contribute. Yes, we if. Okay. So if you were to tag. I think we underused tags in our mailing list. Right. So for this maintainers list, if you send your mail into there and you just put like hashtag RFC. Right. Then when you go to the list. You can see the tag. You can see the tag. The tag. The tag. That hyperlegia.org. Page. You can click on that tag. Even as a non-subscriber and see the traffic on. This tag as an RFC discussion. So I didn't even know that exists. So yeah, so we could maybe just use an ounce then or something.  When somebody posts an RFC in one of the projects. They just bought that's that sends a notification. At least the ones that are using RFC. Have a. A repo for it.  We could do something similar with the labs as well. But when the PR gets merged, if you will. Right. And the new lab is created. Sure. So I. I don't know if this is true. I don't know if this is possible, but get up actions are available. I think everywhere. We could have a get up action here. Right. That says if the PR is new. Send the mail. I'm not. Completely sure if I could send. Email from get up actions, but just another thought. We might not have to do a lot. To make this happen. I think you're onto something there, right? I might also suggest that we. Not only when they're new, but just significant life. Our life cycle events. Because like, you know, an RFC will get proposed and then it gets worked on. And then when it goes to sort of final acceptance. Right. For the design, I think everybody would want to know that too. It's like, Oh yeah, right. I forgot that was going in. I better go see where they're at and weigh in before it becomes final. Right. I was going to say you, you don't want to do, you know, just send the mail out when the code's getting merged. You will. You want to have the ability to. Potentially influence the design of the fix, right? I would think the design of the fix. Right. I would think the design would be more important than the code. With that, would that suggest having a process that's triggered off of a certain kind of a template in the wiki. Then rather than as a, an RFC posted in a, in a GitHub repo. Maybe, but our projects are already using RFC repos. I mean, just look at Ursa RFC. Indie RFC. We already have a pretty mature process there. Well, we thought about the RFCs because that seems to have become the norm for new, new big things to take on, you know, in projects. Most about RFC processes have those two milestones, but the rest can be kind of sporadic or chunky. Usually there's a, it's ready for everyone to look at it milestone. And before then it doesn't make a lot of sense to bring in the broader community because no one really knows what the. What, what parts of it will gel? And then there's the phase that Dave was talking about where it's kind of the request for final comments before we decide that this is how we're going to do it. Okay. So I think that's good. I mean, we don't need to drill more into this now. I think I'd be happy for the staff to look into what they could do. It seems like everybody is jumping into trying to solve the the solve the problem of how to do this notification. But fundamentally that means we agree that this would be a good thing to do. So I think it's worth spending a bit of time investigating how this can be done. And then we can look at this again.  And this is more in line of the TSE kind of providing its opinion to the projects as to, Hey, you know, things that could be done. Obviously, you know, this can only again be proposals and we would have to see if the maintainers of the projects are interested in working in those, but. So yeah, I was going to say everyone has been speaking, you know, like you said, more how to solve it and all, but I guess the initial question would be, is there anyone that's against trying to get more cooperation between groups? I don't think there is, but you know, if there's someone that's against it, why, you know, I never heard anybody express anything like this, but this is interesting question to raise bluntly. I just, I just don't want to, you know, go forward on the assumption. There's been, you know, four or five of us. Yeah, I think the question has never been the principle. It's been the effort, you know, you know, how much, how much of an expectation is there to lift a finger to do that? And I think it's always going to be a mixture of carrots and sticks. There should be something positive for, for projects that want to collaborate this way. And I think like the RFC kind of argument is great because who doesn't want a broader audience for, especially the early part of an RFC process, right? Everybody wants that, I think, or should want that. I think things like the repository, Linter or repository structure, working group are also a positive move. And that could be more on the, I don't say stick side, but kind of like saying, okay, these are the standards now that we're going to expect every project to follow, you know, not to add bureaucracy, but to make it easier to move between projects. I think moving, moving those kinds of effort forwards and bring, you know, kind of a floor of commonality between the projects is, is a big way to help, help people move between these projects and the projects find ways to work together. All right. Anything else? Otherwise, I think we're going to close early and call it a day. I don't have anything else to bring up. As I said, if, if there's nothing else on the agenda moving forward, I will bring up other issues that I'm kind of interested to address that I did bring up last week and at the Hyperledger Global Forum, where I was talking about the roles of maintainers, what does it mean? How do they come on board? What's expected of them? That kind of stuff I think would be good to kind of nail down as, if not again, you know, the, the mandatory policy, at least some default expectation that could provide some guidance for all the projects so we could have a bit more harmonization around those things. How it's done, that it's properly documented and as much as possible consistent across the different projects. And if there are other issues, you know, I've heard loud and clear, several members saying, hey, we should be talking more about technical issues. Again, the, you know, the door is open. People are free to make proposals on issues they would like to tackle. Technique, they doesn't have to be limited to the process. It can be technical. So please don't be shy. Bring up issues. Unless anybody else has anything else to add, I will close the call on this. I guess if you guys don't mind looking over the BIF stuff that I sent out yesterday, that'd be awesome. Yes. All right.  Thank you all for joining. We'll talk again next week. Thank you.


Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering NAB 2017, brought to you by HGST. Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are getting towards the end of day three at NAB 2017 and we've talked to a ton of people from security and storage and applications and now we get to talk to a creator. And we're really excited to have Victoria Nissan. She's the product manager for Adobe After Effects. Welcome. Thank you, it's great to be here. Absolutely, but getting a little background on you, you were just really an animator.  We should bring her inside and have her help with the team at a bigger level instead of all this little things you were doing. I was a motion designer, mostly for documentary for a long time and I got really into writing my own scripts and extensions and make, I used to say I like to make After Effects do stuff it wasn't supposed to do. And now it's my job to help make it do those things. Okay, so what are some of the new things you said, you know, luckily we're past the official release date. You can actually talk about things. So what are some of the new things? So we have a great new release, just came out last week, last Wednesday. We're super proud of it. It's available now to anyone who has a Creative Cloud subscription. And big thing, and this is across After Effects and Premiere is a new thing called the Essential Graphics Panel. It allows you to make really elaborate, anything you want to do in After Effects you can go fully advanced motion graphics and then choose the properties you want an editor to be able to change. So I can say, I'm designing something but it's on brand, I don't want you to change the color but you can change the text. You can reposition something on screen, we can change the background color, do all of those kind of things. And I can have those controls in After Effects and when I save this as a motion graphics template, gets packed up and someone can use it in Premiere and change those things live in the timeline with no rendering. It's really interesting just the whole collaboration, you know, kind of aspect. It used to be so much, you know, an individual sitting down on their, on their hopefully very big machine with a lot of memory and compute, you know, working on Adobe. But now it's really more of a collaborate effort. It's not a lot of people just working independently all by themselves on the machine, especially with cloud and some of these really higher performance applications. Yeah, it's actually been really interesting to watch what's happening. We have a beta service called Team Projects and I've been doing press demos where I'm in Seattle and one of my colleagues is in Germany and we're collaborating live on the same project. I'm in After Effects, he's in Premiere, I make a change, it shows up right in his timeline. He doesn't even have to open After Effects, doesn't have to import anything. And it's all really seamless and we've actually, we've all been collaborating the whole time, but now you can do it without all those extra steps of rendering and sending a file and downloading the file and importing it and then adding it. Now that all can just happen in one click. It's like Google Docs versus Word, right? You have to save and attach the file and send hopefully you remember to save the file. All right, and the other thing you're really excited about is Character Animator. Yes. So what's going on there? So for people who don't know, Character Animator is a new application from the original creators of After Effects. It's a separate application that allows you to do real-time live animation using your webcam and your microphone and also even just touch screen, keyboard, mouse. Basically, hardware you already have to power a character that starts out as a Photoshop or Illustrator file and Character Animator brings it to life. We've seen some really amazing stuff people are doing with it. So real-time live animation. So that seems like completely impossible because back in the day, that's all we would hear about is you had to render, render, render, render, render to get this animation stuff going. But now you're saying you've got it broken down to a level, you can do it live. There's this great line from The Simpsons that animation is rarely done live. It's a terrible strain on the animators' wrists. And we're working to change that. It's a lot of fun. And it also just, you look at the screen and your character looks back at you. It's this really amazing experience working in it. And we've been working to make it easier to use, easier to get started. We've added work spaces so now it actually walks you through the process of getting characters set up and rigged and then a different space for performing. But it's, character animation is just fun.  We've added Mercury Transmit support, which means that you can go out to broadcast hardware. You can connect to apps that stream to Facebook live, YouTube live. We're seeing things like Stephen Colbert's, the late show, they use Character Animator to do Cartoon Trump and he's improving live with a cartoon character. And it's all happening in real time. So as you look back, I mean, this is all fascinating and it's great now you have the power of the whole company to kind of make many of your visions come true. Where does it go next? It just seems like the creative opportunity or the tools for the creator are just exploding. I think there's a lot of cool stuff we can do, but for me, one of the biggest things is anything we can do to save people time and to save people doing the boring stuff, I want to give people more space to create. So don't have to think about versioning, you don't have to think about all those outputs, but all the stuff about, get that out of the way, get the data entry out of the way so you can actually focus on the stuff you really want to be doing. And what about 360 and VR and all those crazy new technologies that are all over these halls? Everywhere here. Premiere's spent some really cool stuff this release. They've got Ambisonic Audio so that you can actually do VR 360 footage and the sound comes from the right place in the shot. So Ambisonic Audio? Ambisonic Audio. So there's some really cool stuff happening there and then on the After Effects side we have some amazing partners who have been doing super cool stuff with VR. Their tools are really evolving and it's a really nice seamless workflow working with them. Where does it go next? Anywhere. Anywhere, really. No, it's just amazing how, again, these tools that really put everything in the power of basically anybody's hands. It's kind of this whole democratization theme which we continue to hear over and over again. We've really focused a lot on trying to get just the tools you need right now to get you most of the way there, super simple. And then when you need to go deep, you can go deep. We're not limiting you to the simple tools but everything's right in context, right in front of you. The stuff you change the most is right there and then when you need to go in and tweak and get to that pro level it's another step down. And so we're trying to really build that kind of workflow so that you have sound and graphics and color all right in the edit and then you have the big pro apps for when you need to do the fancy stuff. The heavy lifting. The heavy lifting. And I wonder, Victoria, you talked about the community because Adobe's got a really active community. You guys have a huge show that brings everybody together. You obviously came out of that community into the mothership. How important is this kind of an active community around the creative process tools you mentioned? You even wrote your own scripts. It's, I love the After Effects community in particular. It's, they're my friends. And a show like this, I see people. I have really great friends that I only see once or twice a year at these kind of shows but it's such a great strong global community that we stay in touch throughout the year and our users really drive where we're going with things. A lot of the features in this release of After Effects I can tell you by name who's been asking for them for years and who's super excited to see something in there. Okay. So if I see you again in 2018, can you give us a hint as to maybe what we'll see? Don't get in trouble. I might get in trouble. Okay, we've got some really cool stuff underway. All right, well we'll keep an eye and you guys over on the table, you gotta learn how to do this talking creative animator thing. I can think of some people that we might wanna gen up. Not the real Donald Trump but some other people. All right, Victoria, well thanks for spending a few minutes with us and again, congrats on the new release. Thank you, it's really great to be here. All right, Victoria Nies, I'm Jeff Rick. You're watching theCUBE from NAB 2017. Thanks for watching.