Good evening, I'd like to call to order the first committee of the whole meeting of the 2014-2015 season We will have a roll call vote regarding attendance Yes, there are 14 present Alderman Maddachuk and Alderman van Akron are not Alderman van Akron is excused Alderman Maddachuk is not excused Would you join me in the Pledge of Allegiance? Oh, and I'm sorry Mark It's our understanding that Alderman Herman will be here That had been we just saw him so I'm not sure all right. We're not sure at this point, so we may be at 13 Pledge Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America Into the Republic for which it stands one nation under God Indivisible with liberty and justice for all Item 1.5 is our public forum I understand Ms. Dulce Johnson wishes to speak at the public forum if anyone else the rules here are a little different if anyone Else is interested in speaking before Within the terms of the public forum that would be fine too. You just after Ms. Johnson is done. We'll take it from there It's okay. Dulce. Can we have your home address, please? 1306 North 3rd Street Shibuigam Thanks, I'll scrunch over here Okay, Chairman Donahue and members of the council and Citizens I would like to present my opinion as a citizen a constituent a voter and a taxpayer on The subject of appointing our city attorney Throughout the history of the city the citizens have always supported being able to vote for various governmental officials There have been several attempts to change the city attorney position to an attempted to an appointed one But the citizens have always rejected that change More recently there was an attempt to make the city clerk's position appointed, but that was also rejected by the citizens I attended two meetings of the salary and grievance committee when they discussed the idea of appointing our city attorney. I Do not support appointing our city attorney for two reasons first Due to Governor Walker's erosion of home rule policies as a payoff to the Milwaukee fire and police Who strongly supported his election? No city, village, or town in Wisconsin can require residency as a condition of employment Thus an appointed city attorney could live anywhere in Wisconsin. Maybe even in Illinois I don't know. An elected city attorney would have to be a resident of the city To the best of my knowledge all but one of our department heads live in the city The exception being our human relations director who does not even live in Sheboygan County But rather in two rivers I feel strongly that employees of a city should live in the city where they work be a member of our community and Help pay the cost of their high wages and benefits in a conversation with our new fire chief It was refreshing to hear him express that same thinking Indeed he relocated to the city of Sheboygan within a matter of a couple of months and Our new library director moved his family here as soon as he accepted the position Second attorney McLean stated that he liked the idea that he was Elected by the citizens because it removed any fear of upsetting the council and of possibly being removed if the council did not like his advice He stated that independence was important and that the majority of city attorneys in Wisconsin are elected True all attorneys are responsible to their clients and in a private situation if a person does not like the way their attorney Represents them they can dismiss them, but that analogy with an appointed city attorney is quite different in my mind The timing of the matter is also an issue if the council should pass the charter ordinance Citizens would have 60 days to petition for a referendum and the city clerk would have 30 days to validate the signatures The county clerk needs to have a referendum six weeks before the election to get it on the ballot So the timeline is tight and it is possible that a referendum would not be on the November ballot In this case the council would have to call a special election or defer the referendum to the April election Which would be the same election for a new city attorney I urge you to let the citizens of Sheboygan continue to vote for our city attorney and keep the position and elected one Thank you. Thank you. Don't see. Is there anyone else who would care to speak before the forum? All right, see no one we will move on to number 2.1 a presentation by the Chamber of Commerce representatives regarding tourism and staff reorganization Delighted to welcome our representatives Come up to the podium Ordinarily folks I feel more comfortable kind of walking around so I'll be a little tight probably behind the podium So I can't tell you how excited I am to represent the Chamber I'm Chamber of Commerce president and today I have with me Betsy Alice who is the Chamber Executive director we have Terry Lillis and that is part of the Chamber board and Part of the tourism committee and we have Amy Wilson who kind of manages and runs the marketing programs for the tourism group I'd like to tell you a little bit about some neat things that are going on with the Chamber and Our promotion of Sheboygan It's hard not to end up having a sense of Excitement when we start seeing all the cool things that are happening in our community and that's also true with the Chamber We feel the energy we see things happening. We see the bidris district getting involved We see more people coming into the community from a tourism standpoint and all of that activity Starts to require a different way that you think to administer services And a little bit is where the Chamber started to rethink in terms of how do we provide services? And we're a community service organization. We provide services for our membership We provide services to promote our community and we provide services through the room taxes currently with With the city and we administer those So one of the neat things about about some of the things we're going to talk to you today Or about today is a more efficient way We feel of the way services can be provided and having a broader base of expertise that we can work with So I'd like to point out a couple of things why tourism is currently working And what some of the challenges are if there's different approach the way tourism and tourism would work So do I move the slides? Clicker I can just click Okay Tourism by its very nature is a cyclical A cyclic a cyclical work Whether we want to believe it or not in the winter time things get to be a little more complicated in the summertime with all the Activities all of the festivals all of the events the level of intensity is far greater Meaning that there are times where there's need to be more resources brought to the table and other times during the year Where other resources might be diverted and go into other activities? The chamber has an awful lot of expertise People who are good at marketing good at promotion good at social media good at public relations good at general Organization and that currently it is our goal to incorporate all of those people into the services that we provide to tourism so unlike a model that we may have had that is really Employee-based where we have one or two people who are assigned to tourism that base gets much larger And there's more bang for the buck and more expertise that can come in there So rather than actually working of hiring Employees we're looking at hiring services and that would be our proposal that that we're going to review with you today The community already perceives the chamber Rightly or wrongly as the headquarters of where tourism is administered. So Usually the first call is somebody looks in the in the phone book or dials up on the internet And they look up and they say should wagon I want to see what that's all about They probably go to the chamber website and then find out what activities are there So the phone calls come in community perception outside world's perception is that the chamber already manages those resources? leveraging As most of you know if you're and I know we have some representatives from the press But if you have a single buy in a newspaper and advertisement of one type or another you buy that once It's quite expensive if you buy it multiple times It gets far cheaper and that's true on all media buying whether it's billboards whether it's TV whether it's radio whether it's print Each one of those the chamber has the ability to leverage up the other activities that we currently have going on with our Membership and apply those rate savings to tourism so that we're able to get a better buy Connectivity to businesses One of the things that that one of our slogans is that we're better together Right now we have Betsy last count was what? 924 chamber members 924 Businesses that believe in this community that have employees in this community that play in this community That we have connections to in fact there's an after hours out at the blind horse right after That we're hoping to stop in where people talk they talk about community issues They talk about tourism they talk about problem-solving they talk about a lot of things in addition to what's going on in the formal municipal part of the government Businesses rightly or wrongly you may perceive that Government is inefficient we know that's not true in shabuagan, but a general perception may be that Government may not be as efficient and maybe a little more wasteful from a spending standpoint So perception a lot of times becomes reality in people's minds. We're not arguing whether that's right wrong or indifferent We're just saying that there might be a perception that government may not be Is efficient as a private business maybe? And I think Amy probably has already recited when she does her presentations that we have a phenomenal phenomenally great historical track record That the heads heads and beds I think that's what we're referring to this as You know in addition to all of the neat things that we have going on in the economy improving But each quarter we're seeing more and more folks come to enjoy our community and as the resources are expanded And as the friendliness of our community and as the business community starts to grow We're still a very well-kept secret and from a chamber standpoint and I think from a tourism standpoint We're hoping that when people come to visit that they're going to come and live here They're going to become our employees Because a lot of times it takes that tourism this that tourist person who comes here to say You know this would be a great place to live or it's a great place to come back and spend my money in the Restaurants and the hotels in do my shopping so we think that the chamber offers a tremendous value in terms of administering Tourism dollars and you have our dedication promise that that will continue in the future So right now we're going to chat a little bit about what has happened with the chamber And I think Betsy is in the best position to do that so I appreciate your time I'm not sure that's true. I think Steve did a great job of explaining it I'll learn to use this gizmo That was easier than I thought I'm Betsy Alice I'm the executive director of the Sheboygan County Chamber and I have to say just an introduction I was thrilled when I accepted this position in 2010 That work was already underway to begin to bring tourism back to the chamber and so that we could work with the city of Sheboygan It's been a wonderful adventure and we've learned a whole lot along the way and I think as as we grow together You're going to see a lot more going on and I want to start just I'm going to give you a little background about how this transpired In the fall of last year we started to look at In a staff retreat the the amount of talent that we had and the the various people who brought different things to the table in the chamber We realized we need to optimize staffing costs. We have Limited funds both for tourism and for the chamber and we want to maintain a Good fiscal model for doing things and delivering services As the leader of the organization, I want to have a good plan for career development I'm keenly aware of succession and what will happen I mean we could have an entirely different looking chamber five years from now and I want to make sure that we have that Underway and that planning and those people are developing toward the careers that lie ahead for them And I'd like them to stay if at all possible and So as a result of that retreat We began to identify and adopt a new operating model I want to say it's not hugely different But it looks very different and I believe that the way we can deliver services through it because it's much more Horizontal and and employs the talents of everyone In the long run, it's going to be a very successful model And we just really started using the model in about May Little bit in April some in May and in June finally began fully using it And I think we're gonna learn a lot in the next year as I've talked with Jim Amodio You know, we're not sure Exactly how this will play out in terms of tourism in the chamber But certainly we need to do our best by both. So that's the intention This is our former organizational chart and you know, really the only thing I want to say about this as example is I'm going to use one of our Unrelated projects just to give you an idea of how this works These are what we would call silos now in looking at it and you've all heard that term in business Some of you have experienced that term But it it puts people in a position where let's just say we have Lisa Hartman who is the person who was heading up our safety committee or Our coastal connections program and Lisa Hartman skill is administrative But Lisa Hartman was responsible for administration marketing Everything having to do with those things rather than being able to call upon a team to support her in that process So the same thing was happening in tourism There are people with particular skills heading it up and that will actually remain so we'll still have a big focus on those people's positions I Should change to the new one so that you can see it So, you know what what we have now is we have facilitators We have directors we have people who have a primary accountability for things and then they can call upon a whole team That's comprised of accounting marketing All the things that they're going to need to actually do the work and get it done And those people are at different levels depending on the complexity of the work in order to to Have sound fiscal Approaches now we have a whole range of people at different salary levels and experience levels who can provide some of Those services. I think one of the good examples is For you know, I think Terry was mentioning earlier some of the things associated with 4th of July Previously we had two people doing the entire project with a little bit of support from some of the support staff in terms of accounting and You know answering phones, but now we can call up on people at all levels to participate in that event so this is how our Program looks now. These are the kinds of What you see down here are committees. I apologize. Some of them are Acronyms TASC is actually the countywide tourism association Those people work from various parts of our county together to do some work together So what's this what this what our team is called now is an adaptive cultural structure? And what that means it makes us more nimble it also evens things out across the year as we have peaks and valleys There are times as Steve mentioned like the 4th of July where all hands on deck There are other times where we have our gala for the chamber where we need some additional support So so throughout the year now we believe that we'll have a much more Even approach to things and the ability to scale up or down depending on what the needs are of our constituents We don't have silos anymore or we hope we won't have silos anymore Some may occur over time and then we'll realize it and change the way we're working We have more resources to create superior products or services We have the ability to match the job to the talent and the experience level for cost containment and efficiency And I would say for quality as well Our committee members are no longer performing back office tasks. You know these kinds of things are better suited to A staff to give them that support behind the scenes Just as you have with city staff to help you do your work better We have improved cross communication among and between staff and committees and this is so evident Right out of the chute a couple of things happened That I could see first of all We have people working together Collaborating coming up with ideas and helping each other all along the way It's kind of you know, whatever is needed you will find here And we will make sure that we do the very best possible job rather than staying in our particular area There aren't there isn't any of the if that's really not my area anymore, and that's a really refreshing way to work One example You as you know or some of you know We are looking at the possibility of a marine sanctuary on our shoreline, which will be a huge tourist attraction Along with that it will also be an educational opportunity for Those schools that are involved in STEM programs those students who have interest in science and technology And there may even be the development of a new big facility for science and technology Well, there's a bridge there that the chamber can can easily navigate because we have committees set up We have a committee called the business education partnership group They were very excited to hear about this new development and tourism and we were able to bring the people associated with that into that group to see how we can work as a community so when we say integration it really is truly integration where where Ideas become bigger and we can gain more support for ideas across our community With tourism being a very active partner in that rather than being a project Our volunteers have time to develop to focus on designing programs aligned with our chamber of vision and All of our stakeholders are working toward one vision And I think the last point is Probably one of the primary reasons that initially I began to think about this in very positive terms And that is succession, you know people come people go But we have a commitment to continue the kind of service that we provide for tourism and we can do that through a variety of people The Sheboygan County Chamber of Vision is to promote business growth and success And and and I want you to know that we think of tourism as a primary business sector in our County and in our community It creates a huge number of jobs. Amy's the statistic person It it brings a lot of dollars into the economy and it's a very important part of business and the Chamber is all about business So promote business growth and success is is our vision as a Chamber of Commerce This is a more elaborate kind of wordy way to look at our vision But there is a line in here that I wanted to relate About the second one down it says this is the place Visitors and new residents will find the resources needed to make their stay memorable and repeatable or to encourage them to put down roots here That's the aspect. I think that touches most upon the tourism part of what we do and the rest of it is Related to all kinds of things if you'd like a copy, I'll be happy to send you one So the Chamber's vision provides the building blocks for our image overall and it's Interesting what Steve noted earlier about the Chamber being the natural place people go that is always the case Anywhere any community in the United States? It's interesting unless there's a separate convention and visitors Bureau When I was the Chamber director in Manitowoc County We used to get Hundreds of calls related to tourism, but we really didn't handle tourism in that County There was a CVB. There was a Chamber and there was an EDC So, you know it just it varies depending on where you are, but in that case people thought of the Chamber as the go-to place I mean they obviously think of the CVB right off the freeway as a go-to place also So now Terry Lillis-Sand is going to talk about the impact. This has on tourism As Steve mentioned I sit on the Chamber board and I'm also the board member who sits on the tourism committee Chad is our they head of the Committee and we have Amy and there's other stakeholders from the hotels Blue Harbor the mayor sits on that committee So I'm going to try to bring this all together Betsy talked about how the Chamber is changing And I'm going to tell you how what that means for tourism and honestly, I think it's going to be a good thing for tourism So let's talk about tourism. What's its purpose? Well, it's to implement and promote Implement promotion and development initiatives that attract overnight visitors to increase the tourism economy in the area Tourists come they stay in our hotels They pay room tax dollars room tax dollars are collected The city is is the one to collect the dollars from the various hotels and the Chamber has been contracted by the city to Use those room tax dollars to increase tourism. So the more tourists we get the more money we have to increase more Tourists so it's kind of a circular thing the more money we have the more we can bring in Promotion and development activities. That's where Amy has really has spearheaded She's been responsible for the promotion and developmental initiatives for tourism. I mean Amy is our expert She was hired specifically for that purpose to get tourism up and running and be strong and viable You know, we want you to be viable We have Amy's been very successful room tax dollars have gone up You guys can get the statistics somehow Amy probably hasn't memorized you can tell you But that's been the purpose and this is not necessarily much different with the Chambers alignment and its vision I mean the Chamber wants to promote Sheboygan. We want to have successful businesses We want to bring people to the area our employers need employees We want people to come Tourism wants people to come to spend money here. So the vision is very very common All right, so under the new Chamber structure in terms of how the work at the Chamber is performed That does have an impact on how the work of tourism is performed, but it's really going to be favorable We still have one primary individual that's going to be Amy. Her primary for focus is still on tourism She's the expert. I sit in those tourism committee meetings and she can cite Exactly what market we need to go after how we're going to do that. What advertising work She knows all that and that's the highest and best of use of her time The highest and best use of her time is not ordering porta-potties for the 4th of July Activities somebody else of the Chamber has better and more experience and can should be doing that Amy should be focusing on Chamber, you know, those tourism activities. That is not going to change The tourism board is an important part of the tourism activities and that composition is not changing We have we have the me the board member from the Chamber Amy sits on that board chat is our head The mayor still will be there and we have representatives from the various hotels. The stakeholders are there that is not going to change Really the purpose of this reorganization for the Chamber is really to leverage the employees best and highest use I mean, we all do that in our own businesses We want to have people that have the skills and use that those skills to the best of our ability And so some of the mundane things that Amy and some of the other tourism people have been doing are now going to be done at Different levels at their appropriate levels so that Amy and her team for tourism can really focus on What's the best use of our time? How do we get more tourist tourists here? I mean that really is what we should all be focusing on is really let's get more people here because the more the better And again using the chamber having the chamber be the tourism Vehicle I guess, you know, we have a wide reach throughout the community in terms of the businesses Restaurants the hotels and so we have the ability to touch a lot more stakeholders and hopefully be more successful All right, so again, I really think that while there's some changes internally with the with the chamber in terms of health work is being done Tourism is not going to change in terms of its results in terms of the goals that we're trying to accomplish Amy's still going to be responsible. We may have some other people helping like tonight part of what we have to do for the city is our is the Concerts at Fulton Park. Well Amy might not be here tonight because she would have been responsible for that But now we have Lisa going to do that. So again her best use of her time tonight is to be here to answer questions Not to worry about the concert tonight necessarily so again, we hope that this is very favorable We think it's very favorable change. We think that you'll actually the room tax dollars Will go further Because we have we have people at different levels doing the sum of the work again Port-a-Potty ordering is not something that we want Amy to do we want her to do something that's going to bring more tourism in so I Don't know. We do we open it up for questions or you have a summary here? Yeah, I did ask the mayor if anybody had any questions. I would be a little bit remiss if I Probably didn't extend Probably an apology of The chamber is taken on these activities with the best of intentions However our communication to some folks within the city It was probably not what it should have done and the last thing we want to do is surprise people So what I would hope that you would leave tonight is you would understand that the chamber is going to add value And that we are going to be doggone efficient at what we do and we are going to be accountable So the accountability piece I think got missed a little bit of saying that we're working for the city We're working for those hotel owners We're working for the tourists that are coming here so that they know what what's happening But we didn't really do a good job with that but you know what we learned from that So I would be remiss if I didn't say something to you know to Chad to Jim You know to the mayor we're doing our presentation to you folks a little bit almost after the fact Well, we believe in the structure that that process of how we got here. Maybe is I Could say like making sausage that would sound a little too great But so that aside Madam chair if is there if for questions are there any questions for the chamber team Alderman Hammond just to have one in One of those ones I think it's more of just so the general body knows we've had these conversations as we are going through this but Obviously we're responsible for the room tax dollars in the allocation there of of those room tax dollars and we're accountable To the to our constituencies for how those are spent before we knew we had Amy and George How are those going to be allocated so if we were to get you audited per se? We would be able to say this this this and that was used towards tourism under this new integrated model By the way, I like it. I agree with it But again from an accountability standpoint that we have how is that going to be accomplished? Well as we had mentioned on I mean if if the idea is is hiring services and we've talked about this internally You know, are you hiring hours or are you hiring outcomes? You know if you went to a marketing company you would basically be hiring a service for somebody to go and do these promotional pieces We'd be bidding on the process and say for X amount of money This is what you will get for the X amount of money and then have the accountability for success We do intend and I believe Bessie you have a meeting set up with the finance Okay, well with Jim we will work to identify and meet the the stewardship responsibilities That the city has on those those dollars now understand that the component of those dollars us Right now. I believe it's about half Amy Half is in administration and half has passed through to purchase media Right, but but that may change in a couple of years And I know I did hear through the grapevine that there may be some concern that as the the tourism dollars that there I Think there's a blue Harbor program or something that's coming off That may put more money into tourism, but the administrative part now There may be increments of of additional administrative costs because the hole is a little bit bigger But the vast majority of those dollars are going to go out for Outside promotions and those are auditable those are expenses that we keep track of and that we're willing to furnish whatever Documentation we need to to meet our responsibilities to the city. That's great. I just wanted the body to understand that We are going to be keeping school, you know, yeah, I think that actually was the biggest concern to the Folks in the city that took that responsibility and personally as a taxpayer and a community citizen I want to know that people are taking care of business and we appreciate the fact and we didn't want to surprise them Unfortunately, I think we did hopefully, you know, we can make amends. We're not perfect I can't tell you the number of times things don't go exactly the way you want doesn't mean the intentions were bad Doesn't mean that the outcome is going to be bad. It's just the process was not as good as it should have been Any other questions? Chamber team. Thank you very much. Thank you very much appreciate your time Um, let's move on to agenda item 2.2 presentation by seagull Gallagher on the wave breaker options at the marina Good evening, madam chair members of the council. I'm John Matheson. I'm with seagull Gallagher management company. We By the way, also go for our division as SG marina. It is set up specifically for management of marinas But we're here tonight just simply to present to you a little bit more information about We had three hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the damage to the docks And additionally, there's an average of about forty five thousand dollars a year damage Prior to this year's so when you factor in this year's is it's much higher We want to talk about the conditions that Exists to bring that damage about and a recommendation that we have to to start to address that in the future Because we think it is important that that we face it and find a way to fix this in the long run So I'm gonna try to not be too boring on this part But I think it's important that all of us understand the type of waves that are occurring there And because once we understand that we can address the fix So I'm gonna talk briefly about the wave formation and what happens in the lake to bring us about This won't be too long For the waves that are occurring here to happen we need five ingredients and these are not just the ripples across the surface that We have these are fully developed Waves that come from a large body of water We need wind speed You need an uninterrupted distance for that wind to occur and that's also known as a fetch You need a wide body of water and Lake Michigan certainly has that You need a sufficient duration Storm that blows through in 15 minutes is not going to create a fully developed wave You need depth of water and Lake Michigan again certainly has that with hundreds of feet a depth What this will what this cause it creates is a is a fully developed wave For instance if you have sustained winds of 25 miles an hour for the period of say hours or a day Which happens often across the lake You can easily get a 10 12 foot wave Here on this slide we show the fetch again It's going across a large body of water which starts off as ripples, but as it goes for many many miles that wave grows What this demonstrates is the distance that we get these waves traveling Right it's not gonna work, okay, but the point is down by Michigan City at the southern part of the lake the southeast part of the lake To Sheboygan, it's about 146 miles That's how long you can get a wave developing that starts off with a strong southeast winds And this is the type of wave that Sheboygan is most susceptible to that's the largest waves It's the widest body of water. It's the longest fetch coming from the southeast part of the lake Briefly this this slide shows the swells that developed and again, we're talking about a large swell That's what occurs in our marina that causes the most damage It doesn't even have to happen right here in Sheboygan where you get a storm This slide shows that if you have sustained winds in the middle of the lake Even and you have a fully developed wave even after the winds stop If you look to the right those waves change to a swell and they continue to move in the direction of The city in the harbor of Sheboygan This is important to understand because The key point is that as these waves approach they're not a surface wave these waves Sustained a tremendous amount of energy that goes well below the surface of the water When it does hit a harbor as you show in this slide It doesn't just stop You just need a small opening and that wave will will spread out throughout the entire marina This is a kind of complicated slide, but again, this is just showing that That in the middle of the lake the the wave is Contained to that top depends how big it is 20 feet or so But as the wave approaches land and you get to shallower water As it says here in shallow water wave action does not decrease with depth In other words that way that wave sustains that energy Well below the surface and that's important to understand as we talk about solutions here Now this is Harbor center marina and chris is going to talk to you a little bit about what happens when these waves i'm describing is fully developed waves Approach the marina from the southeast Thank you. Uh, I i'm chris mark's manager of the harbor center marina. I've been there for almost 18 years now working with For the last 18 years i've been able to firsthand witness what's happening and see it front line um There's a culmination of things that that that come into play when we get the the percentage wise that the worst amount of damage and as john was Was uh alluding to the southeast wind is is our nemesis in shabuigan. Um, what happens is is We we each winter we have ice in the harbor This year particularly strong. It was 40 inches thick When we have the the southeast winds They have a an ability to to to reach into our harbor just the way that this is designed And these large swelling rolling waves, um, if you will have a Unrestricted line to go right into the harbor and that's when the damage occurs percentage wise you're going to have a little bit of thermal expansion is another Um Common type of damage that marina's experience and that's when there's cracks in the ice And when it warms up and it refreezes it expands Okay, but all those little cracks in the ice are are what's what's really Detrimental to to our marina is that they're going through the rolling Rolling through the marina un un unblocked if you will Um and causing the the the doxy twisted bent expand contract and and and and damage Again, I don't know a pointer, but the southeast winds We can go back. We keep records locally at the property Are the wind? conditions that that uh that caused the damage Percentage wise the greatest amount of damage Um There's another phenomenon that uh, you know, you have the shabuigan river that's that's exiting right at the entrance of the harbor You have a southeast wind. I keep saying southeast. It's the wind that's coming directly in the chute the mouth of the harbor Uh, when it comes in you've got this opposing force that's coming out with the river that's constantly flowing um, that also exacerbates the problem and You know bottlenecks and and enters the harbor At a greater rate, you know, you get those two forces coming together So the um The phenomenon that happens is isn't just winter too. We see it in summer sage waves is a term that that is common on lake michigan and That's a phenomenon where you have wind conditions that hold water In a wave format or a swell and then release it in another direction when the wind changes We've seen them. I see them at the marina all the time the Water that comes into the harbor at the inner harbor at the entrance of the marina can look like a A river a river rapid It comes in so fast and that's because it's uh, completely un on block coming into the harbor Um, there's uh As you can see on the the the breakwall design if you draw a straight line from the entrance of the harbor in There's very little to stop at it that very entrance by the yacht club Um, and that's uh, that's a concern that we have here today We've got some slides Of other harbors just a quick a couple examples of how these other harbors look This is uh, this is wakigan. They are on the southern part of the the lake And we're just going to thumb through these and give you an example of other marinas and how they are are protected As compared to shabuigan Again the entrance of this harbor is facing south does have a little Extenduation on the the breakwall There's not one direct path of of the lake that that can enter directly into this harbor This is winthrop harbor. You'll notice this is ultra protected you can see the Boats have to enter in or the wave action in that that in this case has to enter in and go around a Complete 180 turn to get to get in the harbor In kanosha again the entrance of their harbor is facing south With the uh, a complete, uh 45 degree bend coming in To protect their entrance. This is racine. I mean actually i've let john talk about that once. He knows that very well Racine is an interesting case in that there are some similarities with the shabuigan's harbor and that is if you note At that main breakwall Leading to the the harbor entrance. There is a slight angle from there They extended that that wall at the harbor entrance to prevent the problem that is occurring here in shabuigan So that you don't get those large waves coming in so that was an extended. I believe in 1987 To prevent what what is happening now, but this was set up very much like What what shabuigan has now? back uh Almost what 27 years ago or so? And I want to also point out We also manage The marina and racine here there's 921 slips and that marina was completely frozen in this past year Uh, and that marina sustained about $6,000 with the damage And that was the first damage they've had in many many years and that was big for them They normally don't get any damage even though they're always frozen in every year by comparison Um Just just another note on uh, racine. They also have floating dock docks, which is in similar construction to ours There are a couple other marinas up and down the lakes that have the exact same dock manufacturing Or dock Dock manufacturer is the same that we have that sustained far less damage than we did This year particularly again, uh, mckinley marina and milwaukee again look at the break wall That they have i mean they're almost a hundred 360 degrees all the way into their dock system protected port washington again, they've got Fairly fairly substantial system in place with their federal and local break walls One one item with port washington to note too is that they actually have an advantage with their power plant that That that pushes warm water out through their their outtakes of their plant and it keeps the the harbor almost ice-free For most of the winter Nice if you have it If we uh chris and i studied these marinas quite a bit one thing we notice with port washington too It's set up in a very similar way to what we have here in shabuigan But some important differences one of them is if you note where the boats are in relation to that marina Break wall they're far much farther back And in a way would have to come around that bend Almost 180 degrees to to reach those boats But when you go back when we see shabuigan's marina overhead, which you'll see in a minute The boats are right up at that entrance and that makes a big difference Manitowoc marina federal break wall They did add another Section even on their interior if you can kind of see the entrance of their Their main federal break wall is southeast as well But you can see that little lip that they added on later and And for the almost that same reason because they were they were having issues um Again harbor center if again i If you look at that line the straight entrance into the harbor and what we have protecting us and keep in mind that waves They they don't dissipate. It's unless something of A force acts on it. It's going to continue to move They do bounce they do deflect so you know, it can be an easter wind an eastern wind Or a southeastern wind that's going to create this phenomenon in shabuigan Straight into the harbor as as we currently said with this break wall and rip Okay, what options do we have? There's been a few that have been tried Here's what in our opinion are the best options to pursue One to not pursue is a floating wall There are some wave attenuators out there that that do that Where they will have a structure and they actually float concrete hanging down from the wall, but again, these are Floating so as the wave comes the energy they'll just rise right up with the wave and the wave will pass underneath it It may slow it down a little bit. It may help Some what uh some cases, but The kind of waves that lake michigan generates these large rollers Um, it will really not stop that anything that floats will will not stop that energy A bulkhead attenuator As chris was mentioning the federal walls. These are the solid concrete walls Concrete walls that go out to the harbor entrance. Those are flat and the waves tend to bounce off those you can Stack some rip wrap across those or put some type of material on those to kind of break that wave up Almost like you would a sound wave, but again, it's it's just a very minor fix It's not going to stop the type of action that we get in the marina Well, we need is a what they call a rip wrap wall which are the large large rocks um and built in a wall or you can do it as a As a as a pile wall where you have a sheet pile put in there filled with concrete Either of those are really what needed what is needed because those will go down to the the base of the of the lake And come up and that's going to provide the solid barrier to stop that wave action and the energy Now that the choices that we think you have for them are two one is you put it at the harbor entrance to the to the harbor where you put it the marina entrance and Again, we think that the choices there From a cost point of view Are probably better to put it at the marina entrance. You have A little bit shallower depth there and the costs of these walls are pretty expensive This is a I had a company come up with just a base estimate on on what it would cost in rip wrap These are the large rocks even though it's showing a nice Smooth straight line This simply represents Where that rip wrap wall would be when you see those rock walls out there What you're actually seeing here is just the top of that rock wall note how far they extend out into the water 108 feet just to get a 12 foot wide wall You need it to be 108 feet of the base and this is based on a 24 foot height wall That's 47 000 tons of rock for this is based on a 400 foot lineal foot rock wall Costs us two and a half million dollars So it's not cheap so the essentially what we're bringing up to To the council here is Not a question of whether or not to spend money on it because we're already spending money every year. We are spending money and we're also What chris is having to do is deal with boaters that are uncomfortable whenever those conditions exist during the summer Then he's having to spend a lot of his time Having animal repairs in the spring, which is a critical time for him to get the marina ready and doing events and marketing and other things He's basically being a construction manager every year and getting the docks fixed It's a it's a major drain on marina resources for staff And it also causes the docks to dam it to become deteriorated much quicker than they naturally would Again by comparison racine is 27 years old and those docks are in really good shape Here in shabuigan, they're about 20 and they are in much worse shape than the ones in racine They're literally falling apart and because of this condition So again, I think that all of us here are we're committed to the marina the city's committed to the marina We all recognize it provides a tremendous economic benefit for this community And we want it to be around and very viable for a very long time to come We're simply bringing this up that we would like to continue to pursue options and costs and try to come up with the best solution For for making sure this marina is viable for a long time and fixing this problem Very good. Thank you questions You talk about federal versus break walls The whole structure As the core of engineers weighed in on any of this like Oops, we screwed up when we built the the break wall in the first place or you know, the the federal portion Have they said well, here's what we think you should do differently or The core has not done that that I'm aware of and and normally they they They may not necessarily do that they We would have they would have to give permission for anything to be done. We'd have to go through the core of engineers But I don't think that they've stepped forward to admit any fault unless you've heard of anything chris chat The core is under the core understands that they have an issue on their hands too. They've rated every harbor up a non-mint Coastline and have given these docks these breakwaters either a d or f rating So they they just don't have any federal funding to take care of maintenance or even rehabbing them So to go to the core, I mean they would weigh in on a design, but they're you know, they know that they're Walking on thin ice basically with their current setup as well because it just Congress is not allocating funds to them And the lungs that they are getting and they've had a number of stakeholder meetings, you know, they're putting into large shipping harbors Other than in these recreational harbors. So I don't believe you're going to ever see any support from the core my point for asking is if they Let's say that situation changed at some point You know, and if we end up adopting a solution, we spend all kinds of money on it Yeah, are we going to run counter to what they had in mind? Well, if some of that comes up in the permit process, they get that They had a lot planned and I think you know This was to be built from a funding standpoint, um, you know, they looked at their breakwaters and there's places in the south pier breakwater that's You know, completely undermined Alderman born. Thank you, madam chair Could you bring another slide up that shows the shabuigan? the shabuigan and then kind of show us where the uh The 2.5 million dollar investment would potentially it's a hundred. I understand it's gonna be a hundred and feet long Is it going to be right out at the end? It's about 400 linear feet and what what chris and I Felt would be the best positioning Would be at the marina entrance if you see where the There's the overlapping walls right before you enter into the marina. Okay, uh, it would be A straight 400 foot long wall that extends out Blocking that that that entrance Or not blocking it but but creating An additional barrier for those waves. It's the best blockage point. I think this point. Okay, gotcha Now I want to be clear. We're not experts in wave attenuation There are experts out there We know enough to kind of analyze the problem and make a suggestion on what we think the direction should be but before anything is The next step in other words, we should consult with With somebody who is an expert That does this for a living and there are a number of companies that do nothing but this type of work If I could just follow up Alderman ham and The projection is 2.5 million dollars Are there any funds available or would this be something that we would have to bond for? Depending on what the body decides for decides to do We probably have to bond for it. We do have money in reserves You know that we could use for this if the council took the set action to do that um, but It would probably have to be bond for Thank you there the original project Saw some money from coastal management. There's also harbor grant money that's out there So if we do put a project together We used to have a chance to apply for some of those grant funds and those could assist us if we would decide to do this Chad I'll tell this year it was on average at 45,000 I'm just just damage But after this year the volume went up Closer to 65 Alderman bellinger Thank you, madam chair. Um, I've got a couple questions number one Out of all the marinas that you guys have looked at Did ours sustain the worst damage? and This past winter and do we have continually the highest annual repair rate Among the other marinas and secondly Should we go through and do this? How long would this project take and what time of year would it take place? And how would that impact your operations during that period of time? I could answer the first just about This is something I noticed this spring. There's a magazine called dock age magazine And there's a couple magazines out there and they note a number of issues of this type of relevance And I think this was the most damage sustained anywhere in the nation for dock damage I really believe that there was because they list a number of things this hurricane damage here and that type of thing This was by far more than any other marina in the great lakes And I didn't see anything in that magazine that That addressed it nationally. This is a national magazine and it had an article in there about it As I mentioned before I know racine was six thousand dollars I don't know that winter harbor sustained any as far as The timeline to do this and when and impact it would have on your operation I don't And christy might be able to speak to that but I I know that uh in racine They just added to a wall entrance there and it was a three-year project and it didn't have any impact on it You know the barge would be there There's a three-year project that was seen had Beefing up their Their fishing pier right by the harbor entrance. So there you got a big crane lifting up these rocks and dropping them into the place um, and so that's You're still going to have the ability for boats to get in and out These these companies that do this type of work typically understand You know the the seasonality of the businesses and everything and do things in such a way that You know I like the dredging project was done in shibuy and did not Inhibit or cripple the businesses while they're doing this They would do it during the season In a fashion that would work with our business And water access for all, you know shibuy counting Fair Previously Dave Bebel had brought to us a suggestion that we may want to consider Putting concrete piers in and we replace our piers rather than the wooden piers If those were in would this still be needed or would That be a sturdier structure that could withstand these waves you're talking about If we could get a manufacturer to give us a warranty on ice damage that it would be It would be Fantastic, but I don't know how realistic it is the concrete docks are are more durable But I think that anybody that would come and knowingly know the surging that happens, um They they would They would be better rigid rigidity wise I think initially but what happens with concrete docks is when they are damaged The fix costs twice as much more than fixing wood docks And so again back to our point of this presentation is that until we stop the swell Moving into the dock selection would be kind of the next phase Of this but concrete docks definitely are an option to certainly explore further See how it would complement with the nature of this design and assume you're talking about floating concrete docks Rather than the fixed concrete, you know Those are being installed right now in Waukegan half their harbors got these concrete docks And I walked that marina the spring and their Um You know, they're they're basically concrete sections that are set in place where you can get a whole Big piece is set in place, but they're still on a frame that's Made of steel frame, but thin steel tubing that can bend and twist in this kind of Uh condition with the ice So I I there's still at risk. I think Alderman dasler Kind of following up on the mayor's comment. Is there any, um Guarantee warranty on the 400 foot Wall and it's longevity or it's life expectancy Um, because if we do the math if we're going to say we're averaging even the high end of 65 000 a year Um, we'd be even in 38 years So if the wall lasts 30 years, we're probably actually better off making repairs every year than putting in a wall for 38 years I'm just kind of curious Do we know a lot of these walls last that you know? Yeah The walls to answer that question the walls, I mean typically I think they engineer these for a hundred year depreciation Um, we're dealing with the violent, you know Environment that that constantly changes with the river silting and moving in a wide wave action movement That time frame can change can fluctuate But in theory that's kind of the thought process is is that hey, we're building this this wall You know with this stone in this design Is about a hundred years I think also there's a cost that should be factored in and that is the depreciation on the docks As well because you're looking at replacing your docks much quicker And there's a several million dollar investment right there Um that you would have a couple million dollars. I would assume anyway To do that so you're Then the other cost is and this is something that I've discovered working with chris and understanding how the The marine operates. There's a tremendous Amount of time required for the staff to handle these repairs every year It's a tight time frame between when the ice melts and the first bolt comes in anyway You throw in the fact that you have to make repairs This year was really Heavy but even at 45 thousand dollars That's a lot of repairs and he's focused like I said, he's a construction manager when he should be focusing on What can I do to make this a better experience for boaters? How do I implement programs and marketing and but he's basically a construction guy every year So it's a big big drain on his resources that we could be doing something more productive to help get more boats in Alderman wassard Thank you so much and could I just interrupt? This meeting is being recorded for future play It's not being broadcast live, but you may want to use your microphones Thank you so much for the information My concern is um as years go by we already have compromised docking and if the weather continues which we have no control over Our costs to be repairing year after year may be exceeding 60 000 So what would be our next step in having this program that you're speaking about looked into and and grants applied for by um with what the mayor was Speaking of what it as a body. What is our next step to? Do we hire a consulting company to give us the best? Option what do you recommend? My recommendation would be to do exactly that To get the numbers that I got with this I do I have a relationship with Some people that do this kind of work for a living And we talked about what other communities are doing The gentleman I spoke with I've known for years and he's he does this all over the Great Lakes And he says there is sometimes money available federal money depends on the situation And uh You know he knows and has put me in touch with some consultants that can come up with some Estimates to further get this number down Reality is this number might be at a little bit on the high end He thinks it could be maybe closer to the two million dollar range It it all depends, but I I want to put it out there what you know Their initial number was it kind of a a little bit on the high end But a consultant could come and take a look at it understand The wave dynamics in that arena and make a recommendation to see that this is the right way to go If I if I can speak here I I think the the mayor referenced two grant programs One of them being the coastal management program that grant application is typically do at the end of november It's a 50 percent grant It might be beneficial for us to have open discussions with coastal management On the opportunities and the amount of funding they have the other program I would believe is a recreational boating facilities grant program Administered through the dnr that had funded a portion of the marina construction and has done some work with us on launch ramps in the past So I think we have some timing To go and talk to those agencies and see what they would have for Funding before you know and they can even help in some of the design and stuff But before we contract with somebody We want to make sure that we can get as much covered under grants as possible. So I would believe the next Rout in my mind would be for us to take your recommendations to these Funding agencies and see how receptive they are and then come back to the council and make a recommendation from there Very good. Any other comments alderman borne? Thanks, madam chair This is another money question for alderman ham and let's say the project is 2.5 million dollars We get 500 thousand dollars worth of grants. We've got 2 million dollars left Ordinarily the last few years for the new council members We've been bonding for about 2 million dollars a year for capital improvements Would this preclude us from doing capital improvements projects for a year? Or do we have the bonding capacity to borrow another 2 million dollars if we had to for this project? We have a extremely high bonding limit if we wanted to do that This council would have to make the decision as to whether as a matter of policy They wanted to go higher than that 2 million dollar bonding limit If they didn't that 2 million dollars would be it for the year But the council certainly in their prerogative has the ability to say we want to bond for 4 million 2 million for capital 2 million for this Keeping in mind of course that that increases interest expense You know as a drag on the general fund as i'm sure you probably know So we would want to make sure we do that diligently Thank you Good any other questions No other questions. Thank you gentlemen. We appreciate it Oh Moving on to Item 2.3 presentation of the initial budget. Here's how we're going to do this tonight You all received some preliminary figures, which I assume you've taken a look at We're going to ask Nancy bus and jim amoreo to come up to Kind of run us through those figures and provide this basic information to introduce I'm asking Alderman Hammond to Put the presentation in context in terms of the budget line When we're going to be doing what and so forth so Very good. Thank you Why jim and nancy are On their way up I wanted just to touch briefly on this because we got these numbers out Both three weeks earlier than our schedule Indicated but wanted to give everybody an opportunity since maryland was having a committee of the whole meeting To see the preliminary budgets And so the next couple pages are that A couple a couple notes tonight's discussion is really just a summary Of where we're at to this point as you know that the department heads have all submitted budgets and they've been You know gone through Once and in many cases gone through twice and as In the case of capital As recently as in the last couple days So You know the documents that are going to support all of this will be part of the overall budget It'll be part of the overall budget packet that gets Transmitted electronically You know for the finance committee on the 14th of july and then submitted to the general council or to the to the common council for submission um to The respective committees On the 21st so You know tonight's again just a preliminary discussion It's really designed Just to kind of give you guys a a teaser if you can be teased by a budget But to give you a teaser as to where we're at and where we stand now So as we start progressing through the budget process and your respective committees You know we can look forward to your thoughts and recommendations as we try to fill these holes Within each of your respective Charges So that is a backdrop I'll give it turn it over to uh jim and nancy for um To go through the three pages that everybody was emailed Thank you I had nancy distributed another sheet that wasn't an attachment to the email just to go through some Key items one was uh, I was charted with Keeping expenses neutral to the 14 budget and also a budget that provided the same services in 15 as we did in 14 For information, uh, you see I've got listed uh general fund employees These are not all the employees in the general fund, but there are some that are charged into other special revenue funds So these are the net 285.5 people reside in the general fund from cost standpoint Those 285 people cost Uh 28.5 million dollars and that is with uh, their salary and fringe benefits included You can see that as a percent of the operating budget in the general fund Roughly, uh And a half percent Of the general fund budget is people and benefits costs And as you can also see as a percent of the departmental budgets We range from a low of 60 58 percent To a high of almost 91 percent 95 percent As employee cost as a percent of a total department budget The assumptions in this budget are a two percent salary increase for 2015. That's for all non rep employees We still have to negotiate police contracts which expire at the end of this year The assumption in this contract is two percent for them Uh, and we have a contract that expires at the end of 15 for fire and the last year of their contract in 15 The increase is two and a half percent. So that's in this budget as well Right now we don't have any information, uh from Workers uh not workers comp, but uh, wisconsin retirement. So we've kept it neutral to 14 There's some preliminary estimates. It might come down a tenth or two But we're not sure that yet. We'll probably know that Sometime late July On the health insurance side not baked into this budget yet But we are looking at benefits that we have to get our arms around here in the next 30 days Some of the possible things that we might do would be to increase deductibles for single and family plans Contribution levels would probably go up from the 12 percent level in the 15 to 15 and 18 And also increase spousal coverage Currently we charge $50 a month for spousal and we're looking at uh, somewhere in the vicinity of $100 If we look at what those mean and savings it could potentially mean $350,000 in savings That would be applied to the health fund But we would bring those in effect back into the general fund to offset those costs The next page i'll go through is the preliminary 15 budget summary And again This is just a recap of where we're at Things that we know or potentially things that might happen in 2015 From a revenue side, we know that the garbage fee expires in 2014 So that puts a revenue shortfall of $869,000 in the 15 budget From a revenue side We've seen in 15's budget an estimated increase of $25,000 in parking tickets About a $49,000 increase in city development permitting fees The change in cdbg Accounting is both on the revenue side and the expense side. So they're neutral This is so that people understand That we do have federal funding and we do charge parts of our employees for the administration of it So as that funding Stays the same or gets cut or increased these numbers could go up or down But right now we have about 160 to 2,000 dollars of salary and fringes that are charged to cdbg As you don't see in the general fund Because we're allowed to charge administrative costs to these programs for administering them Department of public works for street patches and grants has another 31,000 dollar increase in 15 And based on what we projected in the ambulance side of the business There's an additional contribution from the ambulance fund to the general fund of 101,000 dollars Those all total about a 369,000 dollar increase In in revenue On the expense side when we look at where we started when you look at A general increase of 2 and the associated fringe benefits that would change with it We started out with an impact of potentially 414,000 dollars As we went through the budget several times in each one of the areas In one of the sheets that you'll have that I won't go through shows the detail by department for People fringes and non payroll related costs and how they changed between 14 and 15 But the net impact was is that we were able to save about 172,000 dollars out of the 414,000 Without taking any additional people out of the plan other than a couple part timers and keeping the services the same The largest for short decrease was in the clerks department and again There's two less elections last year, so we're able to save the money but in 16 That will come back. So it's a temporary savings for 15, but it did save close to 84,000 dollars So the total deficit we started with going in was the 869 and the 414 for a total of 1,283,000 dollars We were able to Take out of that a revenue increase of 369 704 and reduce expenses by about 172,000 So that the net deficit As we stood with the budget Was a hundred seven hundred forty two thousand dollars Other expenses there on in the budget that we have to look at because there's potential for one is the death claim that we have We've been served notice We're not saying that we're going to pay a claim here But to defend that claim the city's liability insurance says that we're on the hook for the first 125,000 dollars of legal settlement costs And we believe that you know between either the legal costs or some type of settlement The city will expend 125,000 dollars in its defense of that claim Nuisance properties. I'm sorry workers compensation. We've had an increase over 2014 Of roughly 144,000 dollars This was an estimate That we took the middle of the road from from our workers comp insurance carrier Which said our claims could be anywhere between 420,000 to 560,000 for 2015 We picked the middle of the road, which was an increase over the 14 budget of roughly 144,000 dollars Nuisance properties, which we've had a number of this year And we potentially will have a number of next year based on foreclosures in the city where the county takes over the property These are the costs the city expends to take down the nuisance properties There's very little recovery on that because once they get into the county's hands the county is the only Place where they can absolve all of the liens against properties So they clear all the liens out, which the city is one of them They end up selling the property at some point in the future They may recover something for the sale of the land And that normally goes towards the taxes That get paid first so that the city being second or third in line never really sees the cost of Demoing the property to take it down to to bear land Uh, we've had 18 nuisance properties in 14 We think that cost is close to what Nancy We just did at the other night in council 60 000 dollars that will need to fund that in 2014 We probably have seven or eight that we're looking at further on this year or the beginning of next year The county is up to year 2007, I believe in foreclosures So we haven't really seen the bow way from eight nine and ten through the economic depression We've all gone through so certainly there will be a lot more nuisance properties that the city will have to deal with And then the last one is My term is up at the end of august to next year For sure you're gonna have to go out and do a search Maybe relocate somebody So the prudent thing to do is to reserve some money in order to do that You know our estimates roughly a hundred thousand dollars Uh, so we would add another four hundred and nineteen thousand dollars of expenses Uh To the deficit of seven hundred and forty one so going in We'd have a one point one million sixty one I'm sorry a million one hundred sixty one thousand dollar issue going into fifteen that we would have to deal with Just to note The next page and that's the page that shows 2013 actual through 2017 budget Um, you can see we took the actual we put the 14 budget in 15 budget And we just assumed in 16 and 17 that we'd normally escalate those budgets by two percent a year We don't know what the cpi is really going to be I think it's running year to date 2.1 percent for 14 But that's the assumption we used More importantly, you can see where salary fringe benefits and other operating expenses go And 2013 actual Uh We had uh salary infringes of roughly 80.15 percent in the general fund and you can see over the 14 through 17 it goes up to almost 81 percent 80.92 percent And you can see that operating expenses continue to get squeezed As we try to continue the same staff to support the same services So we're roughly at 19 percent And that 19 percent a large majority of that as you can see from some of the details actually in the public work side Where they need materials to perform some of the duties they do to fix roads In the city So with that I would open up to any questions on those several pages Yes Go ahead. Yes. I just like to add on a little bit of a comment The reason I asked jim to to show jim and nancy to show us 16 and 17 is you know Historically, we've had it not we as but the council's had a tendency to look at things Especially prior to my coming on board in one year increments So we make decisions based off of we've got a million dollar hole right now So what can we do to fill that million dollar hole right now? You know not looking at maybe what the longer term consequences are of Of are some of the of the actions we take so I guess as we go through this You know and and we start identifying and tonight, you know It's not the night to get into those weeds But as we start identifying Options and things that we can either cut Or revenue sources for this we need to be cognizant of what those strategic Consequent with those strategic initiatives have what the consequences of those are You know if we you know cut this service There's going to be a consequence to that you know, so we need to be cognizant of that And that's why I wanted to look at 16 and 17 even though again, it's just a projection We can get a sense of where we're going to be at Again, we're somewhat restrained with act 10 as to what we can raise revenue to as many of you guys know It's net new construction And about one and a half percent So that doesn't leave us a lot of room for increasing revenue Above and beyond what we already have On on the book. So Same thing with cutting expenses if we want to promote economic development and all of those types of things We have to be cognizant that if we cut certain services that will have an impact as well So again, that's why the 16 and 17 are on there for your perusal I might just add another comment. I think the point Of the don made in seven and 16 and 17 Just on salary infringes and again, assuming wrs stays constant It's about a 420 to 450 thousand dollar issue every year for escalation on payroll From a services side when we look at services There's some services we all say maybe we can outsource those it would be cheaper The real issue is if you're going to cut a service you have to cut the service you can't afford to outsource it because then You're taking some cost out which are putting costs back in even though they may be cheaper Still cost money to provide those services I think Under 21st, I believe This comes back to council For the full budget and then it gets distributed to committees Look, Nancy and I will try to do then is to take you through a couple key pinch points that we also have to go through In looking at this budget for expenditure restraints for the city and how they get calculated As well as our our levy limit worksheet so that you can see how that gets calculated Now the information we'll have won't be current information because We don't normally get uh from expenditure restraints standpoint the the state Looks at a 12 month rolling average average for CPI index And they base it on october 1 of the prior year to september 30th So we won't know what that CPI number is until sometime in the middle of october Which really is a concern, but Every year we've had to wait The league is try to put some pressure on the state to get these numbers out and change the methodology to The end of june time frame, but so far the state hasn't acknowledged to do that The other thing is is we probably won't see Equalized values until sometime in august or september So that we can go through the calculation of the levy and you know what impact that does have on rates And normally we need that as well for our levy our levy limit worksheet So those are kind of pinch points, but we'll take you through what we did last year So that you can see You know what our limits are especially with the levy cap and the expenditure expenditure restraints that we do get from the state Alderman Hammond. Thank you and then just as we kind of You know wrap up the at least the Presentation side of it. You know, there's a couple things we need to be considering as we go forward as well First off, I think we've talked about that, you know, there's some uncertainty with expenditure restraints We're not also sure we have going into police and fight our police contracts both patrol and supervisors So we don't know how that's going to ferret out at the end of the year Um a couple things that we've got coming up first off the motor vehicle fund Right now it's at about 1.1 million dollars Um And it's kind of dollars in dollars out So we're going to have to make some decisions as a body as to what we want to do with that And certainly there's there's some options out there, but give that some thought as we Continue to embark on this back in 2007 2008 that fund was taken down quite significantly In order to fund pension and that fund Hasn't been replenished. So we have to make some decisions under what we want to do with that particular fund Of course the building we're sitting in You know at some point some decisions will have to be made regarding city hall as well There's some damage and and repairs that you know should be made if if this is going to be the building We're going to stay in and of course in 2015 ish 2016 probably Is combined dispatch when we need to pay that Some of money out to the county for that. We think it's probably going to be 2016 Based off of our conversations with the county, but again just something to keep in mind So you know in addition to what we've talked about here You also need to focus on those couple items That will be of importance coming up in the next year or two Now that everybody's impressed We've had capital reviews We started out with 2015 excluding the motor vehicle fund of about 8.6 million dollars of requests Our normal funding is two million dollars. So There's a big job in front of us to do that As well as we skinny to list down on the motor vehicle fund and currently based on their needs It's about 1.1 million dollars in addition To that for the motor vehicle fund Just keep that in mind Once we get that wrapped up we'll be making a presentation to the capital committee To start looking at what we want to fund and which projects have the priority Questions Thank you, madam chairman I keep hearing this one and a half percent What dollar amount is that? It's one and a half percent of our levy our levies 21.6 million. That's about 320 thousand dollars That's the maximum we could raise taxes other questions alderman boring. Thanks, madam chair Jim as I look at this I think the elephant in the room Is fringe benefits I don't think we can continue to have 80 80 percent Or 81 percent of our budget uh salary and benefits. I'm not concerned. I'm not concerned that much about the salaries But I am concerned about the fringe benefits, particularly the health insurance plan With what you're proposing doing Is that going to lower our cost as far as the overall premium that we're paying now this year? We're paying If I remember memory serves me correctly about 20,800 per family plan With these changes with the with our provider Changes in deductibles contributions levels changes to the plan Is our exposure Total dollar amount is the premium going to come down well The caution on premium is that as you fluctuate rates they change from year to year so you could have drastic swings Our intent was to keep the rates the same But the benefit we would get From these changes Would come back and net effect reduce the premiums in the general fund that they would have to pay to the health So in other words, whatever the whatever the employee contribution is right now It's 12 percent and you were thinking of going up to whatever percentage you said Uh I guess my question is you know, can we afford to continue to pay 20,800 per employee for health insurance? Is there a way for our 3m or m3 whatever it's called to design a plan to get our premium More in line with what the private sector is paying for their employees And I mean, that's a lot of dollars I think I ran the numbers on that if we would get closer to the 15 5 whatever it is in the private sector There's about 2 million dollars there And you know 350 thousand dollars and i'm looking at the trend here The the trend in fringe benefits continues to go up as some minor fluctuations, but It's not it's not solving the problem Yeah, but don't forget In fringe benefits as well as wrs and that's gone up Over 2 in the last four years So it's not only the the health plan that that drives it because the rates have been kept constant What we're trying to do is over time get employees to pay more for the insurance that we have When you think about a three percent increase In premiums on 21 000 dollars for a family plan You're basically in effect The employee is going to contribute out of pocket another one and a half percent Okay, if we increase deductibles from 750 to 1500 on a single plan And 1500 to 3000 On a family plan The employee not only pays the one and a half percent increase But also picks up the extra 750 or 1500 And when we say okay, we're going to give them a two percent raise Oh, and by the way, if they have a spouse on the plan that could get other insurance We're going to make them pay 1200 a year for that privilege rather than 600 So there's another increase and then we're going to turn around and give them two percent So in effect if they use the deductible We increase the premiums by three percent and they have a spouse on the plan They'll probably be five percent out of pocket and we're going to replenish it with two percent in a general increase So when we look at that over time, we have to step it up and look at that But to say that we can go from 15 contribution to a 20 contribution or to a 25 percent or increase deductibles From 750 and 1500 to four and eight thousand like some private sector plans This is a significant burden On the employees and I think morally at least I have The responsibility to look at how do we retain a workforce? Part of it is as we attract them through the benefit plans we have And I think that if we do something that draconian That quickly it has a significant impact on take-home pay for our employees In long term a lot of money out of pocket if they do have medical emergencies Well, there's also been an argument that you you can't do to the Represented employees a non-represented employees something to the non reps and not doing something to the reps But again in the private sector you can go to you can go to a company that has You know represented employees non represented employees and management employees on which i'm sure you're familiar with with being in private business There can be three different health plans in the in one company and I don't think While those employees may not like it In the private sector it's effective life And if we have you know if we have to do more In 15 As far as affecting our non reps Then I think we have to send a message to our represented employees that we're going to expect more from them Don't forget though. Jim in the private sector. This started in the early twos 2002 2003 2004 When they have to really set aside or accrue for liabilities on health premiums So they've been at it for 10 years We've been at it for two years So in order for us to catch up and get there tomorrow Is a significant impact on our employees We have to keep that in perspective, but over time we have to do that I have I have one other thing madame chair if I could could and that is I was I was a little bit disappointed When I got these these these three sheets of paper That there were not any recommendations coming out of your office On possible scenarios on how we're going to deal with the garbage fee whether we're going to have it We're not going to have it. Are we going to have part of it? And maybe that discussion is going to come up later. I I don't understand the process but And we also have a document in that's being held at finance from alderman belliger heiderman and myself That we and a directive kind of from the city attorney that we have to deal with this issue of the garbage fee sooner than later And I was hoping to see some scenarios out of your office of How we're going to deal with that if we keep it completely so we get rid of half of it And different scenarios having to do with insurance or whatever you else deemed Where you know, we could get going on that process Um, I think we're going to let alderman hammond Absolutely, I'll take that. Um, first off the scenarios are right here We can all do the math and determine if we did half what it would do to the bottom line if we did three quarters What it would do the bottom line, you know, the finance office isn't in a position to make policy decisions That's what this body's got to do So to your question, um, if we get rid of half the garbage fee Um and keep half the hole is only 700 700,000 If we get rid of it all it's 1.1 million And if we get rid of a third again, we can go do the math and see what the implications of that's going to be So again going back to my earlier comment though, we have to be careful what we we wish for And I'm not saying whether I'm pro or against the garbage fee But from a bigger picture standpoint like we did with the wheel tax and the sewer tax where it was fashionable to get rid of those things We can't bring it back Act 10 will not allow us to do that So if it's here and we decide to get rid of it You know again, that's a policy decision Not a finance department decision But I would I would uh, I don't agree with that And the reason I don't agree with it is we have this gentleman up here that was hired to take the politics Out of city government and the budget process I'm willing to take the heat when it comes time to take a vote For whatever mr. Amodio's office recommends And I want to see scenarios Out of his office that if we if we do decide to take away half the garbage fee Are we going to have to cut police? I want to I want to know the scenarios And and I think we have to know that sooner than later It's not our job to sit here and say well to make this work We're going to cut five police officers or we're going to cut 10 firemen We're going to cut we're going to cut the public works department That's not that's not our job. Our job hopefully Is to get some scenarios for mr. Amodio's department on Keeping it getting rid of it keeping half of it. And what's what's that going to mean? In jobs or what is that going to mean and the way we change the benefit plan? I'm willing I'm willing to take the political heat on on when we vote on this stuff But I don't think it's our job as a body here to sit And and and for us to decide what's going to go we should may have a presentation of what's a presentation of what he's recommending And then we can take those recommend recommendations the good and the bad and then take the vote Alderman Boren. I'm just going to respond Alderman Boren. Thank you so much for your comments Again, just to put this back in perspective. This is very much a preliminary introduction to the budget We are not at the point where we have detailed scenarios of In fact of all of our our cost centers number one number two This comes to us three weeks these preliminary figures come to us about three weeks before they normally do and I Want to thank Jim and Nancy for their efforts in that respect So I do think Alderman Boren you may be worrying about something that that as our budget process goes on is as we all Those of us who've been around for a while and new older persons will learn All of those things that you have brought up which are completely valid I think will be will be addressed as as time goes on And this is what we get the big bucks for okay So Jim if I may make one more comment to address all your concerns jim City department heads have spent an awful lot of time In the last six months Taking a look at all of the people that they have All of the functions they provide Enlisting them in priority order, which we've never really had before And what they've done is put next to those job functions and bodies the associated cost And revenue if they generate any revenue out of those functions So that each department when they go through their review and the committee Will have a list of all of the departments In priority order most important to least important and the cost associated To help those committees if they so decide to reduce some costs or cut some services To know the value of those services and the respect of people That would have to go in order to not provide those services We've tried in the past to say that okay if we've got a 1.1 million dollar problem It's the equivalent to 15 people So what do we do we equally take people out of every department? That got extremely frustrating on the council floor because everybody has an idea of where people should not go In other departments where a lot of people should go So to take the frustration and the argument out of it By having these lists of functions and costs Each committee will have the opportunity within their purview To look at how they want to contribute to the shortfall Um in the general fund budget I just follow uh Jim when the public protection and safety committee looks at the cost of providing the ambulance service Are they going to be looking at Four paramedics on the on the cost side or are they going to be looking at all 21 paramedics on the cost side? I mean if you want to do you know, I know what dave bebel is going to spend for for the garbage pickup I know what chief domigalski Is going to uh is spending for to run his patrol division So my question is when public protection and safety reviews the cost of running the ambulance service Is it going to be four paramedics on the cost side for 21? What do we have today Now we have four Just to answer Okay, is that is that showing the actual cost of providing that service then? It depends on how you look at it. Well I think we've got 21 people we got 21 people providing the service. So how can public protection and safety be evaluated Without knowing the cost of the 21 what I could do then jim to satisfy everybody's concern is take The fire department plus all the expenses and the ambulance service put them together And put the revenue on top and show them that expense And we can do that for all of the years to show that if we didn't have one our expenses would be higher Because in effect if we lost the ambulance service, we still wouldn't lose those four firefighters That are in the ambulance service and charge there because we need them to man five stations So I and I'm just going to I'll be a point of order public protection and safety to argue that point Otterman boran The purpose of what we're trying to do tonight is take a very preliminary look at the budget And I really think that if we get into policy debates and arguments and we have just these very preliminary numbers in front of us The hour is late. We've had some excellent presentations, but we really do need to move on Is is there anyone else who has any comments or questions about the information before us? Mayor I was wondering if you could just comment a little bit about how this police preliminary budget Satisfies the expenditure restraint program and if some additional tax dollars if we did raise taxes Is that going to jeopardize that? Well, we're not really sure if we look at What we've got here for expenditures and add the other line items that we know will probably happen Based on 13 for 14 With a 1.9 percent CPI factor That CPI factor gives us about six hundred and sixty six hundred and seventy thousand dollars of cost In the general fund that we could increase and still keep expenditure restraints This puts us at about six hundred and sixty thousand So we're really close and In 2014 expenditure restraint restraints from the the state Will reimburse the city seven hundred and twenty thousand dollars So we're in jeopardy of losing that so we have to be careful. That's a fine line Thank you Other questions comments very good. Thank you so much for your early work. Thank you At this point in the agenda, I am going to turn the chair Position over to alderman hammond as item 3.1 is mine and I would like to speak to you about it Adam chair do you mind taking like a five minute break? Is everyone okay with a five minute break? So we'll come back Nine minutes to eight. Thank you all right We'll take up item number three or section three 3.1 charter ordinance number one 14-15 and ordinance Subject to the home rule provisions of section 66 0101 wisconsin statutes providing for the appointment of the city attorney In lieu of the current method of elections by the voters of such office And I think uh all the person down here would like to make some opening comments as it was her document Very good. Thank you. I um as I was listening to uh, steve harrison Talk about the Chamber of commerce realignment and so forth and he was talking about how business really Is more nimble and more responsive than government and while that may be true because They don't have as much taxpayer money to work with as we do There is a point that From time to time. It's really a good idea to look at how you do business I have looked at the city attorney position and from my perspective given the history that has developed over the past 65 years There is a strong argument to be made that the city attorney position should be Should be appointed Rather than elected There is a long and interesting history of all sorts of municipal positions being elected I don't know if we ever had a dog catcher But if you had a dog catcher it was that person was elected We have an elected coroner We have elected clerks We have a number of elected positions that reflect the old party history Republican and democrat now the city attorney position like we are as a non partisan non party kind of position But in the old days these were republican or democratic kinds of positions and you wanted to have Your people in office because it uh strengthened your party in your party's position Those days are pretty much long gone And we have had a long history of having an elected City attorney But i'm going to suggest to you that we haven't done much electing in the past 65 years now All of us sitting in these rows here are leo's local elected officials And i was on the school board for a number of years and and still kind of a newbie here on on the city council And there's that great day that first tuesday in january at 501 when you realize you're not going to have opposition and you're really happy But other than those selfish pleasures democracies work best when there are candidates representing different policy positions From whom the voters can decide Do you like this idea better? I like that idea better. This policy is more important to me That direction in government is more important to me The salaried grievance committee knows the history of elected of contested city attorney positions The last one we the first one we found was in 1949 There was one in 1951 One in 1961 and then the last 1965 was my former partner Now deceased quite a colorful character bud humkey for those of you who know bud humkey Having bud sitting here would certainly be pretty exciting. But in any event bud ran against bucky mertzen and lost that election In 1974 the city council decided that from again a policy perspective The city attorney position which had not been contested for some period of time Should be an appointed position They passed an ordinance. There was a referendum and the people overturned that decision Six years later the the the same council Not the same council, but the city council tried the very same thing We're going to make this an appointed position rather than an elected position And because of the provisions of a charter ordinance if the council does change the charter or the overall ordinance The kind of the home rule ordinance that miss johnson was referring to the people do have the opportunity to present a referendum for an election So it's not that we haven't tried to change the appointed position Excuse me the elected position to an appointed position But it just hasn't succeeded Now in 1980 it had only been 15 years since there had been a contested election Now in 2015 We're going to add Another 35 years on to that in other words when this city attorney position comes up for election It will be 50 Years five zero since we have had more than one person running for the city attorney position now I I was not in town when bucky mertz was the city attorney But I have been practicing law with when gary langhoff was the city attorney and also when steve mclean has been the city attorney And we have been most ably represented by those two based on my own personal experience And I think it's a generally shared perception Accordingly from my perspective I'm not interested in changing this from an elected to an appointed position because we haven't had good people I'm going to ask us to think about why do you have elections? You have elections to allow the people to determine the course that their government is going to take Whether it's the school board or the city the state national So people can choose between people who have different ideas different philosophies Well, we haven't been able to do that now for 49 years in the city of sheboyin because there has not been a contest That to me indicates that At least within maybe in 1980 it was important, but 35 years later. It's not quite so important But then secondly and this is even more important elected officials look at policy so alderman boran and Alderman hamond are talking about the policy decisions that we're going to have to make in terms of the budget coming up in the next few months Lawyers don't make policy Steve mcclain is not sitting up here Making policy about how the city should be run In a contested election. I don't even know what it would look like I think there should be more council meetings I don't think the city attorney should have to be at every council meeting I think that there should be more decorum in the chambers. I think there should be less to what i'm trying to get at is that Going back to the old days when you had that party structure and it made a difference that the dog catcher was republican or democrat These days An attorney is a highly skilled Practitioner who guides the council the government in some pretty rocky waters from time to time By appointing a city attorney We have the ability to make sure that the person who is sitting here is the very best The most skilled and the best suited for the position and we can do that by an appointment process I will tell you that if there had been contested elections for city attorney even in the last 10 years I would not even be thinking about this But when I found out that the last election was 49 49 years ago And that's much older than I am Or i'm much older than that rather I'm thinking this is not This is not an election That presents a real choice to the people it really doesn't And these days the reason it doesn't is because you want a highly skilled municipal lawyer As I said to guide us through some you know fairly rocky shoals now So what i'm going to urge is that we as a council adopt an amendment to the charter ordinance making this An appointed rather than an elective position If we are dead wrong on this the people do have an opportunity to request a referendum. What does that involve? 7 percent signatures on a on a referendum to change our decisions That's about 1100 people So if 1100 people are willing to sign petitions there will be an election if we move in a timely fashion And there is an adequate and timely referendum We can get that on the On the ballot at the november election So for that reason I think that we can I think that we can make this policy decision To to move to an appointed office And I thought miss johnson has always did a very excellent job of pointing out the other side of the debate But I will say that almost all city attorneys in the state are appointed not elected It's not the reverse And I don't know the percentage so I shouldn't say all but Many more city attorneys are appointed than elected. I think for the reasons that I've laid out here so I would ask us as a committee of the whole For a motion to forward the Ordinance that I have proposed to the city council To the common council for the july 7th meeting This is a change in the charter ordinance. It requires a two-thirds vote In other words 11 people of the full membership to approve. So again, there would be some there would be Some opportunities there We debated this matter in salaried grievance. It came forward with a three to one vote in favor We also discussed That we would not make the city attorney a completely at will position But rather require a three-quarters vote of the council for removal Attorney mclean felt that that was Fairly good insurance that in the heat of the moment a lawyer wouldn't just be terminated I will tell you just based on my experience for many years When governmental bodies have an attorney with whom they've worked with for a while It is it's an excellent relationship. It can be a little contentious from time to time but People generally believe it or not like their lawyers and don't want to get rid of them. So I am I'm confident that the excellent lawyer that we could hire would be Would not be subject to political wins quite as much as we might have thought So those are my reasons. I think Ms. Johnson gave you a good sense of what the counter reasons are But from that policy perspective, that's what i'm advancing tonight So, um would entertain a motion Um Before you make a motion, uh, I've been enlightened a little bit more What about the possibility of just putting this to a referendum automatically and let people decide in november why change it? The the statute does provide for that I would you know, I you know the timing is bad. However, because We have this debate as as you will remember in salary and grievance. Um No, I actually that would I mean if it if there were a referendum in november One way or another if if it remained an elective position Whoever would run for it would be able to you know, take out papers on december 1st. So I I guess my question is Madam chair, you're the one that brought this forward. Would you be Rather than going through this process of having this document to try to change it And then letting the people if they want to go out and get the 1100 signatures Couldn't we just put it to a referendum and which I would support right off the bat And let the citizens decide in november. It's going to be a big election It'd be a good opportunity for a lot of people to vote on it Would you would that be all right with you or would you rather do the process that you want to do and Let me just interject for a moment Madam city clerk, what's the referendum? I just want to make sure if we're going to go Alderman born's route that we have the time and You know, what what does this body need to do to make that happen? Maybe Attorney mclean either one of you guys if you want to chime in on what we need to do if we go that route versus the Other route maybe grab Your honor, I haven't looked at the statute specifically recently on that But I think the choice would be that the council could pass a resolution either Proposing a question to be placed on the ballot Either as a binding or an advisory referendum For the for the voters to decide There's no time requirements or I mean other than I think I think there's at least the six week minimum To get it to the county to get on the ballot, but I I think that's probably the only time constraint Thank you, I was going to make a motion to send this to the council with a positive recommendation Is there a second The motion and the second now under discussion all the person Thank you Uh, yeah, I pushed it once before and is it working now? Yes. Yep. All right. All the person Thank you. So it's my understanding that if it's an elected position Then the attorney would need to live in the city And if it's a position that is appointed they could live in the walkie That that is correct. Um the um One of the difficulties with the residency within the city is that um municipal law is An ever more complex field of law that really branches out into all sorts of different kinds of areas To find someone within the city and that may be why we haven't had contested elections Is that that level of expertise is um, I It may be present in the city. It's it's nothing that i'm aware of um My sense is well enough said on that. Yeah, let me bellinger Thank you chairman, um question for you, um, Mary Lynn You make great points. You, um, you give us a great sense of history um Dulcey johnson gave us the counter the counter to it My question to you would be why do you think? By having it not be an elected position in an appointed position that you're going to get a greater Number of candidates or potential candidates. Is it just the non resident geography? Or is is is there something else that you think that you're going to it's going to spur a greater interest For applicants to this position What's that? When I would expect that this would be advertised from a statewide perspective and There are people who are certainly willing to move for this would be a very good job for an attorney Um, this is not necessarily a money saver Because a very good attorney Might even cost the city a little bit more. Okay um, but It is an area of specialty that you that First of all, it's a hard way to make a living In the private sector so Most that's why most cities have appointed attorneys because they get people who apply from all over This isn't that's not a very good answer to your question, but the All I know is for the last 49 years There hasn't been any interest In a contest for city attorney There have not been two people who thought they could do the job who have put themselves forward before the electorate Could I Would you would this be considered a full-time position or would that Said appointed attorney be able to maintain a private practice or this previous position as well or not? I think this is very much a full-time job. Okay Thank you I've been born Thanks, mr. President Mary Lynn If you if you wouldn't mind answering my previous question Would you mind if it would go to a referendum right off the bat rather than Forwarding a change in the charter You know make it a binding I would have no problem have it going into a referendum and making it a binding referendum If the citizens want it to be continued to be elected fine and if they don't find Do you have would you have any objection to that? You know and I've since you first proposed it jim I've been You know the old expression my lips move when I think kind of thing. Um, I um The more I think about it the more that may be um a decent enough resolution Uh, and I guess I would like to hear from Folks what what they think of that possibility? So I don't know steve quite what the process is to actually You know what legal process needs to to be done to get the referendum on But I expect it's not arduous Thanks, steve Like I mentioned before I believe it would just be a simple resolution of the council Uh, come in at one meeting get referred to A committee or the committee of the whole whatever come back to council Uh Be a majority vote on that whether you'd have to come up with phrasing the question And decide whether it would be a a binding or an advisory referendum, but uh, basically be Adapting a motion or a resolution saying that this question will be put to the voters that That's what I think I would be comfortable with that I was just gonna I was just gonna follow up by could mr. President Uh, would you be willing to work on that with the city attorney then maryland before the jane The july 7th meeting so we could still get out on the agenda. We got a we got a week and a half yet I don't even think we'd need to move with that kind of speed We we have enough time Six weeks not put that kind of pressure on the city clerk in the county. Let's okay, we're gonna do it. Let's get it done Okay, well, we got a motion on the floor, but go ahead Thanks Thank you Actually, uh alderman belanger Brought up the question I wanted Be it a referendum or The the ordinance that Alderman person donahue proposes Um, I guess I did one The the details fleshed out a bit That it's a full-time position versus Uh, private practice or working for another municipality That that there'd be that level of detail in In either route that we that we take If it's a if it's a referendum that Hey, this is a full-time gig You work for us That's a That's where I'd like to see that lead For your comments all the person will start I have just a couple questions if you'll entertain them My time in it number one Is there any additional cost to the whole voting process by adding a referendum on to the ballot? No, there's none whatsoever as we don't do it on a special election There's no additional cost and number two would we make it an advisory or a binding referendum? I need to determine From my perspective just It would need to be a binding referendum if it were only advisory The the position comes open in april of 2015 Start to circulate nomination papers on december 1st So if it were advisory, I don't see how there would be enough time To to deal with those kinds of concerns. I would not be in favor of an advisory Welcome. Thank you all the person carlson. Thank you chairman with the compromise reached I would withdraw my motion and with the expectation that our resolution would come forward And I would second All right So We are Emotions been withdrawn all the people born your lights are working. Thank you, uh, mr. President Do you need a do we need now need a motion to proceed with the other scenario about having All our person donnie who work with the city attorney and the city clerk to get that on the november Ballot To ask the question of the citizens. Do we go to a however it's phrased that we're going to go to a Stay with an elected city attorney or go to a Appointed city attorney Do you need a motion to that effect? I don't um and steve, please jump in I think maybe you yourself and other person donnie can just draft that and bring it back into council We don't need a motion to go To to do that. Do we? Or would you like something just as guidance? I got your spot. So you don't have a microphone That wouldn't be necessary in other words any alderman can bring in Any document introduced at the next council meeting regardless of What the sentiment is here of the committee of the whole so wouldn't necessarily need a vote from the committee of the whole but may May not be the worst thing to get some sort of sense of the You know, this is most of the council here Thank you All right All the person hinderman thank you president. Then uh, I would make the motion to file this document second second Motion in a second just remember procedural standpoint steve if this gets filed All the person donnie who comes back with a A resolution for a referendum one doesn't kill the other Well, uh, that would be before the council you right now you've got a Recommendation coming out of salary and grievance to the council at the next council meeting that would be in favor of it And you could be coming out with the committee of the whole with the an opposing Recommendation but that's fine. It's up to the council then clean it up at the next council meeting to decide what you want to do And we just clean it up then Um, I think there might be some utility if you all are willing to vote tonight on In the motion that I would put forward would be would be to move that the council approves A referendum on the november 2014 ballot as to whether The citizens of shaboygon want to retain the elected city attorney or change the Position into an appointed Position and so I will make that motion second Binding yes, i'm sorry a binding uh referendum Second hey, there's a motion by all the person donahue second by all the person born to Recommend a binding referendum on the november 2014 ballot To determine whether our city attorney should be elected or appointed All right any other discussion All the person feel Yes, we have Two things going on now. I'm getting a little confused The first motion was withdrawn which was to approve mary linds I'm talking about joe's had a motion in a second also Oh Sorry, I did not catch that's why i'm asking i'm We had two motions now. That's why I was checking to see what we're what road we need to go All right, so let's take the motion to file first off. Thank you for pointing that out Take the motion to file first. There's a motion a second to file the document Um under further discussion What was the advice of our attorney about doing that didn't you say that we have something coming back from committee? We knew but we can clean it up at council with the other Thank you All right, so hearing no further discussion on the motion to file the document all those in favor say a union roll call No, all those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed The chair votes aye carries now Would you like to Reintroduce your motion or not particularly possibly You just moved that the council approve a referendum question be drafted in a form of the resolution Presented a council for the november election and all the person born. You still second. Yes. All right now under discussion on the referendum And it is binding and it was binding and it was binding. Yes. Yeah under discussion on On the resolution All right hearing none all those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed We got an a julie chair votes aye Motion carries Very good And I will return that for the closing of the meeting our next meeting has not been scheduled I expect that we will have a budget committee of the whole meeting In august probably in late august and we will let you know I just want to thank all of you for your time and attention This went a little longer than we normally do and I thought we had some wonderful discussion And I appreciate it with that. Is there a motion to adjourn? Is there a second second all in favor state. Aye. Aye Motion carries Oh, don't leave there's a council meeting