because I think I might miss a document. I'll for it's Nate's email to us, February 14th at 2 o'clock a.m. Okay, sorry I missed that one. I see right emails are easy to overlook, you know, and they come in they come in warp speed, it's like that. Thank you so much for all your help, Nate. Okay, so it's 6 34 p.m. So I read the preamble first, Nate. I think we wait a minute. The public's just joining and we have to wait a minute anyway. It's just the time was posted at 6 35. Oh, okay. Okay. All right. Yeah, we've got seven attendees. I'm assuming we'd have more folks. And I don't mind if we wait just another minute. Just we started it. We started the webinar a little a minute or two late. So, okay. Can I just open the meeting? Yes, as opposed to the hearing. Okay, so so opening I'm opening the meeting at 6 35 p.m. Pursuant to Governor Baker's March 12 2020 order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law glca 30 a section 18 and pursuant to chapter 20 of the acts of 2021 and extended by chapter 2022 of the acts of 22 and extended again by the state legislature on July 14 2022 and signed into law on July 16 2022 this public hearing and public meeting of the town of Amherst historical commission is being conducted via remote participation. Members of the public who wish to access this meeting may do so via zoom or by telephone. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time by a technological means. A hyperlink to the hearing will be posted or is posted on the town's online calendar. And so should we go forward to open the first hearing now? I'm assuming I read the additional preambles and then open the meeting. Is that correct, Nate? Yeah, I think so it's 6 36. There's just a new co-host Robin. There's nine members of the public in attendance right now. Okay. I think we could start 6 37. So in accordance with the provisions of MGL chapter 40a and article 3.60 of Amherst general bylaws preservation of historically significant buildings. This public hearing has been Julie advertised and noticed there have been posted and mailed to parties of interest. The Amherst commission is holding this public hearing to provide an opportunity for interested citizens to be heard regarding the following demolition application requests. The first hearing before us in our agenda is 8 15 Main Street coal construction a requested demolish circa 1830 single family home on property and any attached structures. And then could you maybe just open the second one as well Robin. I know I'm assuming more public might be here for the next one. And so I don't know if we'd want to flip the order just to Oh, okay. Okay. And also opening the hearing for 98 Fearing Street full construction requested demolish a circa 1927 detached garage. All right, Ted, I'm going to promote you to panelists. I know you're here. Let me know if there's anyone else who would want to help present. Hello. I don't know if the owners are here or not. I guess if the owners are here for 98 Fearing, you could raise your hand. Lorenzo, you're allowed to talk. I don't know if you are representing the owner or the owner or Is the owner. Yeah. Yes. All right. I'm going to promote you to panelists then as well. And then you can rejoin in a second or two. All right. Great. Hello. All right. All right. So I don't know who would like to start the presentation about the full start with 98 Fearing. Well, there's not much of a presentation. I think that the materials that we submitted speak for themselves. I both, well, let's just take them one at a time. 98 Fearing I described in the application as derelict garage. I want to address the word derelict because it caused a little bit of consternation in a member of the local historic district mission the other day. And I just for the sake of clarity, I would like to read the definition that the reason that I use the word derelict and it's an adjective according to Oxford Dictionary that describes land or buildings not used or cared for and in bad condition. And I think that that describes both of these properties. The building that we're requesting to demolish at 98 Fearing and the entire building on 815 Main Street. There is a proposal that has been made to build additional units dwelling units on 98 Fearing and that material and they did. Did you attach the material, the new material from the local historic District Commission presentation to these to the application for 98 Fearing here? No, you know, they had the original one just showing that the garage would be removed to make way for parking. And so I can bring up the other ones, but I don't know how, you know, I think. Yeah, I was just curious just whether or not, you know, the commission has seen it at all. But the garage, I'm not even sure it should be called a garage. Nate asked me today for some interior photographs, which I rushed out and took. And in taking those photographs, I remember that the floor of that building is a wood floor framed practically on directly on the ground. I'm not sure it was ever a garage. I think it was more of some kind of storage shed or something else. It has garage like doors on it, but I don't think it was ever a garage. Maybe it was a carriage house at some point. But if it was 1927, that's not likely either. Right now, it's uninhabitable. I think that if I asked Rob Moore to come out and inspect it, which, you know, may have been a wise thing to have done, I think he would declare it uninhabitable. It's structurally rickety. It's framed directly on the ground. You can see through the structure to the outside. It's not, it looks decent from the outside. One of the commissioners from the local historic district commission, you know, said that he thought it looked pretty good. It does. I think it from the outside, it does. It's been painted and maintained on the outside. But the inside is barely structurally stable. I mean, I walked up on the second floor today, and I quickly decided I didn't want to be up there for very long because I was afraid it wasn't going to support me. So the owners wanted to demolish the structure to make room to build some more housing there. And it's pretty straightforward application. I don't think there's much else to say unless Lorenzo has something to add. I think I'm going to share my screen. I'm just going to walk through the images, both the ones that were exterior shots and then also interior, so just for everyone to see. So here's, is that visible for everyone? Yes. So here's that exterior facing the street. Here's the side. Can I just go back to that one? They decided lean to the left. Yeah. So, I mean, there's, I forget how many there's. Probably like, there's 24 images, I think. So I'm just going to try to use a second or two on each. Another exterior shot. Another one. It is low to the ground, so there's a detail, though. You can see that is framed right on the ground. The back corner. Another side. Another one. And so here are some interior shots, just for everyone to see some images. It's looking through the floor and seeing daylight coming in. That's, that's not, sorry, you know, I, sorry, I downloaded. I downloaded, you know, all the images at once. So ignore all this. This is a 15 main. Oh, no, that one. No, no, go back, go back. Back. Let's see. Oh, no, no, correct. No, you're right. That's a 15. My bad. Yeah. So here's the exterior. This is just a detail showing the garage on the outside. Here's the roof, interior of the roof. Two by fours on two foot centers. Yeah, but those look like two, true two by fours, right? I mean, they're not, it's not. Yeah. No, it was framed with like dimensional lumber back in the day. Yeah. And there's another detail of the side. Here's the second floor. That's the framing of the second floor. And here's the underneath the structure. All right. I guess that's it. So that's only 14 images. Yeah. And then I'm going to do one more share. You know, so the house, the house in, in garage, we're built probably roughly the same time. So what we do have is, you know, the application, we have a sandborn map that shows the property with additional outbuilding. The property is right here from the 19, this is 1930. So there was, you know, the house and then what, assuming is the same structure in another outbuilding. You know, the property has been inventoryed. So it's noted that the property is a craftsman style house, somewhat unique for this area in town and the garage kind of mimics that style. Here are the plans for the property. And just quickly, the, you know, this says, this could change, but the idea was to, the garage is located here. And the idea is to remove it to make way for a proposed development. So, you know, the rest of it, I guess, if the commission has questions about these plans that were online, I don't think they're as relevant to right now to the discussion. But, you know, we know that the owner is planning something and wants the garage removed. Robin, you're muted. I don't know if you. Thank you. Any other information from staff, Nate, or should we move to questions for commission members? Yeah, Robin did submit, it was uploaded online today, Ted, a report actually about the American garage in the, you know, early 20th century. It's, you know, a document that's described. I mean, we, I don't want to go through it all. It's 37 pages or so. But, you know, that does talk to the significance of these structures and the importance of them and in terms of the culture and the both social and architectural of, you know, that evolution. I think that's it.  Do we have questions from the commission members before we move to public comment? Madeleine? I have a question. This is a simple question. Is this building, is the house of this property in the historic district, the National Register Historic District? And it's contributing, correct? Right. Okay. It's in both, is it in both the National Register and the Local Historic District? I know it's in the Local Historic District. Actually, now that you're saying the national, I might actually not be in the National Register I'm looking right now. I'm just looking at our standards for designation. Right. So, yeah, so I, so staff made the designation as the, of significance. You know, there's like three kind of broad categories of why something could be significant. And so, you know, it's actually outside the National Register District, the National Register District to bust this property but doesn't include it. Right. Pat, you have a question? The house is listed on Macros and it's part of the Local Historic District. Right, so that's right. So, one would assume that the garage is, you know, part of that parcel. At the same, same era as the house and so we should consider it from that perspective. Right. Any other questions from commissioners? So, if there are no more questions from commissioners we will move to public testimony. A reminder to everyone who is intending to speak, please for the record tell us your name and address before you begin your public comments. And I just wanted to give a general reminder to the commission and to members of the public that the historical commission's evaluation of this particular building for demolition or demolition delay is related to its historic significance. Factors around any projects that might come close demolition are not part of our deliberating process. So, we'd ask that you refrain from making comments regarding any project that might come after this or any absence of material. It is related just to the historic resource in question which is in the garage and its significance to the neighborhood and its contribution to the public good. So, with that, Nate, do you want to just handle letting people into public comment? I see Paige Wilder. Yes, so if anyone wants to raise their hand we can call you in order. So, it's like Paige, you have your hand raised and you can speak. Hi, Paige Wilder. I'm at 73 Fearing Street. I first want to start by welcoming you to our neighborhood. It's one of the oldest and most stable neighborhoods in Amherst. Many people have lived there 30 plus years and when I moved here there were four people on the street that had been here 50 plus years. Having seen the interior of the garage I'm even more convinced that it's a structure that's worth saving. My garage was very similar with the upstairs portion and in the same state of, not the same state of disrepair but one side was sunken into the ground a foot and a half. We raised the building and poured a foundation and restored it. It looks great. We're not quite finished and I think that's the level that this should be held to in this neighborhood. Another neighbor built a new garage that looks like it's been there a hundred years at 30 Fearing. It's an excellent example of what should be done in this neighborhood. I understand your comment about not bringing up the project except that I think the only reason this owner wants to take the garage down is because of the project and the project is likely to fail. It seems like a cart before the horse thing. I'm requesting that you impose a one-year delay, demo delay until some of this other stuff gets worked out. I appreciate your taking the time to listen to public comment. Thank you. Thanks. If anyone else and the public attendance would like to make a comment, please raise your hand. I see Jennifer Taub has raised her hand. You want to let her in. Jennifer, you can unmute yourself. Thank you. Thank you for letting me speak. I'll be very brief. I just wanted to really echo what Paige just said. I'm Jennifer Taub. We live at 259 Lincoln Avenue. I did want to just add that the house and the garage really go well together there of a piece. Because of where this property sits almost at the corner of Lincoln and Fearing that it's the garage and the house are visible from the public way on Fearing and very much on Lincoln. People enjoy it from walking down two major streets and it just I would say that any structure that's almost 100 years old probably needs a little love and maybe some more upkeep. But it certainly is a structure that is worth saving. I guess I would just say that most structures in the local historic district and old houses throughout Amherst are not in the condition that they were when they were built. If they were all allowed to come down because they were in the condition that this garage seems to be I think we would lose a lot of our history. And then I would echo Paige about requesting the year demolition delay because there's a lot going on with the property and it's not maybe clear that it needs to come down and it couldn't be saved and preserved. Thank you. Melissa Ferris. This is actually Graham Caldwell. I'm her husband working together. We're at 285 Lincoln Avenue. We're one of the abutting neighbors. And yeah, I similarly feel like that parcel is it's more interesting to me with the garage and the house in a kind of similar style that it's a garage that was it's not like a normal construction like with the slab foundation and you know has like weird doors on it there from some other era it seemed like architecturally interesting and work considering saving. And I would also like to echo the thing about delaying demolition for a year until other things get worked out especially for us because we have outbuildings that are right next to that garage. It will very much affect our lives. And if it's going to if it's taken down for nothing that'll be a real negative for us. Yeah, if we have to listen to a lot of construction it would be nice to know that it was because you know perhaps it on carriage house was being preserved instead of ripped down and the other thing I want to echo with Jennifer and Paige said that this is visible from Cosby Street it's visible from Lincoln Avenue from in front of our house obviously quite visible from Fearing Street and so whatever it you know can be done to retain the authenticity of the parcel I think is worth doing seeing the pictures on the inside it doesn't seem like it's not worth saving it seems like it's a cool little building. Thank you. If any other members of the public who would like to make a comment feel free to raise your hand. Okay, so I don't see any other members of the public. So we will close the public comment period and there is one more. Okay, so there we go. Sarah Woodbury. Hey Sarah if you unmute yourself you can speak. Sorry. Sarah Woodbury 826 Main Street I just wanted to be sure that you will cover the 815 Main Street project. You're not closing public comment to all these requests. That's correct. That's just for this this particular parcel. Not seeing any other hands for public comments. So we will close public comment related to 98 Fearing Street and close the hearing at this point. I would just keep the hearing open. This could be a time for commission members to ask any more questions. If you can hear the screen, I can. So is that different from deliberation? The instructions that I have say that we have to close it. I think sometimes we allow, we keep the public hearing open even during deliberations. I think that's the hearing. The hearing is a chance to get new information. To me it can happen. The commission can start discussing things while the public hearing is open. That's not a violation of anything. That's not what my instructions say. We used to say let's close the hearing. What we found with other boards and committees is that if all of a sudden there's a new image to be shown and the hearing is closed you are supposed to reopen the hearing. So in that case I will open to commissioners to be in deliberation. People want to raise their hands and we can begin discussing. I can start. I did last spring as part of my historic graduation program. I did a research paper on the American garage and this particular house echos a lot of what I uncovered in looking at builder's journals and also home design magazines where you had a home designed in a particular style. You had a usually one car garage around this time period located at that side drive that was clearly visible from the street that was subordinate to the main house and mimicked the architectural style. So this house seems to be a pretty clear example of what was the trend in that day and what was recommended from an architectural and design standpoint to promote your house to the fullest value and have this kind of major minor pairing of public view so that when you walk by these houses you'll see the molliver amherst if you start looking for them this kind of pairing of the two pieces. The American garage was a new structure at that time period. I think Ted pointed out that this was probably built somewhere between 1922 and 1927 because it clearly is not a converted stable and in fact garages were built because stables pose too much of a fire risk to be converted to garages so insurance companies stopped ensuring them and there was a growth in this particular type of structure. So my feeling is that looking at the interior pictures and seeing some of the projects in my graduate program I don't think the condition of the building is a reason to allow for demolition. I think there's a lot of potential for correction there. We do have a CPA funding program that can always be accessed by private property owners for preservation of the historic structures when those costs succeed in certain normal maintenance. So I think I'm curious what other commissioners think and what type of decision we would want to make going forward in terms of imposing a delay maybe getting more information on getting a structural report on the building or I'm not sure I think I had another idea there but I'll stop there if anybody wants to jump in. I agree with what you just said and I go back to what I posed as more of a question because the house itself, that structure is part of the historical district it's listed on MACRAS as a specific architectural style, the garage is built to complement to be part of the property and the public has noted that it's part of the streetscape from several streets in the historic district and so I think that I personally before it was demolished would want to have some sense of what it would take to restore it to keep that streetscape and to protect the status of the property in the historic district. Thank you, Pat. Andy or Becky, go ahead. Yeah, I am just looking at the preservation bylaws that are written I don't know I don't know why I have to read the whole thing but just under section F standards for designation as a specific building it makes two of the three standards the second one is that it has value in association with the specific location it has or with broad architectural economic or cultural heritage in the town of Amherst and then number three is the building alone in the context of the building or as part of the viewshed which we talked about has historical value so I shortened it a bit but those two of three for me make it very clear that it has value and it is historic and it's worth looking into as you mentioned getting estimates going to CPA funding for that. I just wanted to remind the commission I think our process used to be how building would come to us when we would determine whether it was significant or not and now we're in a process where buildings come to us because they've been determined significant so that what we're so we've we go through three thresholds is it historic and then is it significant and both of those thresholds passed and then our next threshold is it preferably preserved that's really what we're discussing here and I think you're probably speaking that to that too Becky but I just want to remind everyone we've crossed the two thresholds does this building warrant from the opinion of commission members a delay because it's preferable that we preserve this building so hopefully that can help frame our discussion. Heady go ahead. Thanks Robin I think this is a building that needs to be preferably preserved as well and I think it's it's a snapshot that is in line with other buildings in this historic district that show a relationship between a house and a garage at a particular time in Amos history that is relevant in terms of telling the stories of the people who lived there lived here then and continue to inhabit the town today and you know viewshed is important to that sense of the feel of the neighborhood as you drive or walk through it and and it's actually something that I think is attractive about Amos in a way that draws people into this community so I think that's all I need to say at this point. Thank you. Madeline did you have a comment? I agree I think it's unified with the house and this is it's architecturally the whole property is architecturally significant as an example of residential architecture from this time and it's as we've heard from the public viewshed definitely incorporates structure and that should be considered. Nate can you just you and I had a discussion earlier today or I guess an email exchange about the way that the overlay between the historic commission demolition delay and the local historic district I think it would be a certificate of appropriateness that how those two things interact so that the commission can understand that piece of it. Right so there are really two separate sets of regulations so the historical commission can impose a delay because the loss of the structure, the impact is significant to the neighborhood and the property a local historic district has the ability to prevent delay not just delay it so local historic district could say well the loss of the building is significant enough to the district and they could also say that they need to see what the future plans are in terms of on the property perhaps say they're rebuilding it and it will look very similar than maybe that in terms of knowing what would happen in place of it so the local historic district has the ability to say no to a demolition just really reject it and then also ask for more information it's also more flexible because they could incorporate future plans but also has a little bit more regulatory power and the fact that it can deny a demolition and so really a project in a local historic district we have a lot of processes we haven't combined them so there's always this path to the historical commission and one to the local historic district and so for better or worse 250 or whatever it is properties we'll have to do we have to go through that process this similar process so if the so if we impose a delay and then the local historic district here decides to allow demolition with the replacement by similar structure there would still be a delay there would be a conflict between those two things I'm assuming it would just come back to us and we could choose at that point whether to lift the delay or if we felt that that wasn't the appropriate decision we would continue it until it expired so during a delay period applicant and owner can return and request that the commission lift the delay or reduce it and then the file has criteria whether there's been a bona fide effort made to restore it or get cost estimates to show there's a hardship or make sure there isn't a way to reuse parts of it or all of it and so if in that instance Robin there was this two different outcomes between local historic district and historical commission an applicant could return to ask the delay to be lifted and maybe that but historical commission doesn't feel it's warranted then there's a different opinion between the two commissions and eventually the demolition would expire and that would be that okay does anybody have any comments and if not does anyone want to make a motion? Well I move that we make a vote to or whatever are we taking a vote? At this point we could probably move to close the hearing oh okay and then if you wanted to you can make another motion in terms of you know the action the commission would take on this okay so does someone want to make a motion to close the hearing? I make a motion to close the hearing I second it so the hearing for the public hearing street a request to demolish the 19th circuit 1927 to check garage is now closed can we take a roll call Robin? oh sorry roll call vote yep so Pat? no so this is roll call vote to close the hearing just to close I agree sorry I realized we didn't do a roll call to start with we did I agree no I'm president and I agree Patty? I agree Madeleine? I agree Becky it you're muted thank you and I vote I to close the public hearing okay so five five to zero vote to close the public hearing now do we have a motion regarding the issuance of a demolition permit or a motion to impose demolition delay Pat? I propose that we consider that 98 Fearing Street garage is a preferably preserved property and that we impose a demolition delay Becky did you have a comment? no I second that Becky seconds so we have a motion to impose demolition delay on demolition of the 1927 garage on 98 Fearing Street so we'll do a roll call vote so a vote I is in favor of imposing demolition delay usually just we could have any future discussion before we vote any other discussion just make sure we're not missing anything thank you no okay no further discussion okay so Pat? I Heady? I Madeline? I Becky? I and I vote I so the decision of the commission is to five to zero vote to impose a demolition delay on 98 Fearing Street and streets detached garage Nate anything else that do you want to speak to? I think that would that's good for 98 Fearing and I think we can move on to 815 Main Street I was just going to try to get documents open and ready but I think 98 Fearing is all set then I don't know Ted or Lorenzo if you're here also to speak for 815 Main Street but that could proceed with the presentation you have all the stuff queued up I'm you know 815 815 is a much different kind of application because it's taking down an entire house which is no small thing and I don't think that this decision to seek a demolition permit was taken lightly by the owners and I think that it would be good for Lorenzo to describe how they came to the point of deciding to seek a demolition permit Thanks Ted and thank you all for the opportunity to speak this evening Ted's right this is a decision that was difficult because we had every intention of really rehabbing this property I'm not sure of all the documents that were handed over but upon taking ownership we had a few contractors in to look at what it would take to restore the building each of which didn't want to give a quote or move forward in any way we then also went through the process of having it tested for lead and then had it actually deletted so spent quite a bit of money to delet the interior which was necessary to proceed and have it safely so definitely we're marching along in the path of the rehab then also had a post all of the contractors that we had look at it regular general contractors didn't feel comfortable because it is in such poor condition and as old as it is we hired a posting beam specialist to come in and look at the house they I'm mixing up the order but I'm pretty sure they wanted a better view so we the interior pictures which you'll see in a moment were at what he wanted to see is bare bones what it looked like from the inside and so his report was that it's not salvageable in fact dangerous and his recommendation was to take it down and that was hard to hear hard to see I live in a 1870 home myself and value and appreciate old homes old buildings this one is beyond salvage and if you've seen the pictures or if you've driven by it I mean it has been in this condition for decades I believe and actually I've been trying to buy it for a very long time with no no luck so I'll leave it there for now if you have questions happy to answer when did you purchase them last not this a summer and a half ago COVID times everything's a little bit of a blur 21 21 summer of 21 how long was it this is just a curiosity question that relates to a larger question that the commission might take up at some point about affirmative maintenance but how long was it vacant and allowed to do we know maybe Nate knows I will offer that I also own the building next door and I've owned that building since 2002 or three and never once have I seen it been inhabited and it was already in rough shape boarded up back then so 20, 30 years I don't know a long time I can walk through the pictures like I did previously if that's alright and I can just go over the material that's been submitted I don't know exactly how long it's been vacated but looking at google street view and other images we have it's been 20 years where it's been deteriorating it really hasn't been you know this owner the owner inherited what was a structure that had been I'd seen most of its decay let me share my am I still sharing my screen am I sharing my screen am I oh we see you see me yeah you don't need to see me right now so here's the house if that's that's good for everyone and I'll just I'll just work my way down here's the east side of the structure so you know main street is on the right you know it's really close to the street it's actually built at a time when there weren't setback so it's nonconforming for zoning in terms of its location but it is really close to the street here's another image of the front of the house I think the street used to be a lot narrower yeah I mean even I think I found a only good aerial photograph from the 50s and even then it was still pretty close I mean I agree the street was probably narrower but here's some interior we're going to go into the interior so here's looking at the roof structure here's a corner another detail and so there are some beams here this is again detail of just some framing I'll take this opportunity to also even say that since this point I even called back the post and beam specialist and asked if we were somehow to be able to take this thing apart carefully would he want or could he salvage the post and beams themselves and he said he didn't want another image the interior there's some basement basement foundation detailed rot here's another image of the back of the property not a detail of just decay and then a new share I'll just share the documents that were submitted and available just the we have you know the inventory form so it is it has been inventory part of the East Village National Register District you know so there is some history there the application and then was submitted as the post and beam report you know summary report and so that information is available online you know it's interesting the house does you know as part of the East Village it you know there's a number of homes in this area built around this time or even earlier and you know they were served as merchants homes they might have had shops in the back and so you know East Amherst is a really old section of town and so at one point this was a really vibrant village center with you know different I think they call it a doctor you know well there's a number of owners but you know different owners over the years have lived here and it's been noted in this inventory form and so here's an image back in this is probably 88 or 81 alright we have questions from commissioners at this point where we go to public comment I suppose what concerns me most is just the amount of decay that might have been prevented by the previous owner whoever that was in an and I know that being in a national village district doesn't necessarily bring a lot of protection for historic buildings but it's probably worth mentioning that this road that this house is on is one of the main ways into Amherst you know from 202 and historically you know this would as Nate was saying would have been a much livelier center it still is very lively but it's just changed its use over time Amherst glass on the corner there the Jewish community center and synagogue you know it's still vibrant it's just that it's really different and I love this part of town because I think you get a really cool sense of what what is actually very historic and authentic in terms of our town so I don't really have a question sorry that's okay I'm just reminding commissioners that this is a period to ask for more information that's okay it's for more information and later we'll go on to deliberation but it's a lot to keep track of for all of us Pat do you have a question for the owner and also for Ted you've stated that it was your intention to restore the house and and then you began investigating and the report from the beam specialist is quite compelling would you still consider restoring the house or is that report definitive to you that report feels pretty definitive to me thank you in this case I defer to the owner not only a question I just have a question are we are we allowed to just ask what the intention is for future use of the property thank you generally we're supposed to be evaluating just based on the loss of the resource and not necessarily what comes next Matt I'll just say maybe in so much as you know is there you know I guess if you're asking is there a possible reuse or anything of the structure or timber or members that I don't know what where you're going with your question but it sounds like that is already considered reusing the materials as my questions answered okay thanks any other questions from the commission members okay so then we can move to public comment members of the public would like to provide public comment we can raise their hands and reminder to for the record please tell us your name and address so feel free to raise your hand if you'd like to make a comment on this property a 15 main street up for a request for demolition when I see Sarah Woodbury has raised her hand hi Sarah you can unmute yourself um I just want to say I appreciate the effort that you made to restore the house we live across the street 826 Main Street and I think we really did a really great great job to try to do that and I agree that it isn't worth saving but um there is a step there that has a scraper on it at the front door which is really quite nice and if you could save that that would be great this is not anything that I'm Sid Siff I'm Sarah's husband um I would say that you were doing a Herculean task and going forward and trying to restore that house I was overjoyed that you would even try it and I was shocked to tell you the truth um um I also agree with Hedy is that is that your name Hedy? it is a major root into Hammerst and you might as well put a sign up on the house that says welcome to Hammerst and the way that it looks right now is not a very good welcome um the house has been uninhabited I would say for maybe 20 years the owner wasn't doing any I think someone asked about why you know why wasn't something done to upkeep it she walked just walked away from the house never came back she just abandoned it so I would say you know I am interested in what would happen after it comes down what will go in there but it has to be better than what's there now whatever it is also you know I've thought about how close that house is to the road um traffic here goes by very fast and if that house was restored and students moved in and have parties the way that they are want to do I just imagine someone spilling out the front door into the street thank you for your comments um if there are any other members of the public who would like to comment please feel free to raise your hand and we will call on you at a moment here so I am not seeing any more any more interest in public comment at this point um so we can continue the hearing and begin deliberation among commission members is that right Nick yeah that's fine just in case there was any new information okay so we keep the hearing open and um I had he had a comment other commissioners would like to weigh in on this demolition request for a 15 main street parking um I just like to say that I completely appreciate Lorenzo's efforts to do everything could to save the house I did drive over the other day and uh took a look at it and you know that the historic part of me fantasized about what a beautiful place it must have been or could be but when I looked at it I looked at it it was frightening how unsafe it is is there you know the board has come down and I know that's not your fault but I could just see folks climbing in and playing around with it um I think you've done everything you could do and and it is a safety measure just from view of it so thank you um I'll just follow that I definitely noticed this house on more than one occasion and it seems like all of us here maybe including the applicant find it a little heartbreaking to lose a resource like this again the question is whether it's preferably preserved and it seems like the leap from here to preserving the house might be unattainable and um I find it I find this this exercise challenging because I'm someone who believes in um as it come to preservation um expanding beyond just high style architecture and looking at more modest and vernacular houses with an equal for whether or not they should be preserved or not um so there is something that this house I think speaks to in that particular area um I just keep thinking of the pickering building and um you know the proximity to it it fits into that um that time period but I think the condition that it's in and the um information that the applicant has provided make it pretty clear that preservation effort would be um pretty uh I will say that I'm amazed at what can be preserved but the extent to which you have to would have to go to to preserve it and the balance against its historic significance um I think don't warrant it so that would be my that would be my two cents Pat or Madeline do you want to thank you. Well I I think you know we're all speaking to the fact that that it is a property that in its way had significance and that if if it had been if preservation had been attempted 20 years ago 25 years ago um but the last 20 years have been what appeared to be a death now for the structure and so we we can't go back 25 years it would it's it's totally unsafe now so you essentially would be building a new and you can do that if you choose to do something that's compatible architectural style with a new building in that setting but I don't think preserving this one is has a possibility anymore thanks Pat now let me give a comment um I mean not really I think it's just it is yeah it's a shame that the last the last 20 years have caused it to to come to this state um and it is part of this kind of series of older houses that are similarly sized and all a little bit different along that route and close to the close to the road and um to echo what Pat was saying it it there is sort of a cohesive feeling there to that to that part of the street and it would be nice to continue that in the in the future um with whatever you choose to to do with your property but yeah I think this one is is is lost um does Michelle Mevers have any other comments um I think that uh does anyone want to forward a motion for um imposing a demolition delay or uh issuing a demolition permit yes we could the motion could be a dual motion to close the hearing and oh okay we could do one at a time maybe a motion to close the hearing first and then no I was forgetting something uh uh motion to close the hearing it's just easy to say it's good it's good to say all right I can I make the motion name okay so I moved I moved to close public hearing seconded seconded okay so uh public hearing is closed for 815 Main Street uh do we have a motion regarding their request for demolition permit I propose that we approve a demolition of this structure at 815 Main Street okay so we have a motion to uh issue a demolition permit for 815 Main Street to the second right there Becky seconds okay so we will do a roll call vote uh an I vote is to uh allow for a demolition permit for uh the structure at 815 Main Street uh Hetty um I reluctantly Becky I Pat Hi I and I vote I as well so that is about 5 to 0 to issue a demolition permit for the house at 815 Main Street thank you uh Ted and Lorenzo for uh attending our meeting and um uh I hope you have a good evening thanks for serving as an ex-member I appreciate you putting the time in for that thank you good night okay so now we continue the public meeting uh with announcements announcements I don't have any I don't um you know just the commission I'll just say that you know the commission meets again on the 27th for another demolition hearing um you know that that's that's you know that that's a thing it'll just be the hearing and so I am trying to reach out to the owner to schedule a site visit next week and so I'll hope to maybe get back to you um tomorrow or Monday with some times and maybe um you know so we'll just see how that goes and Nate I did send you an email I'm not available I'm going to be flying at the time of the meeting right I think four members could be so you know given the time constraints of the bylaw I think we can we'll make it work I think I did get your email Pat thanks thank you okay um next item on the agenda was a request of mine um I just wanted to take maybe 10 minutes to five to 10 minutes to um ask the commission members um I should probably take notes too uh their ideas for one in five year goals for the commission um after doing I spent a summer internship working with um or surveying the commissions of the historical and historic district commissions of the um Berkshire county and I realized how all over the map commissions are in terms of um they can accomplish what they know that they can accomplish their understanding of the priorities of the commission and I thought it would be a really good idea for us to define some goals to see if we could um achieve them um we moved forward this past year with uh a bunch of things including our barn and outbuilding um preservation program and so the first thing that I would add to the list um which I think the uh is how we'd like to approach this might be a five year goal um how we would approach uh a um affirmative maintenance bylaw or uh to to deal with demolition by neglect and I would add that I was doing I'm learning how to do a lot more um more and be research in my job and I was looking at um the history of a friend of mine's house up on east pleasant street and as a part of that trying to figure out where her house was um there's the one house that's falling apart right by the cemetery and I'd always sort of never really thought about it as a particularly old house it's actually quite old it's actually one of the first houses in that area and I know that I personally have seen it go from what seemed like a perfectly reasonable house to something that is just uh it's just disappearing before eyes and I was a little bit shocked when I realized um it's historic significant so um I have I don't know a lot about uh about uh affirmative maintenance bylaws but I think it would be really great if we could work toward getting one in place because it is the older buildings that are uh gonna be neglected and and we've got two really great examples of um what can happen to something that are really a critical part of the beginnings history of you know of Amherst so that's my vote um or in some way but what I want to do was brainstorm and um and then I was going to send out if we had a lot of things I was just going to send out and send out a little survey for people to write them so kind of get a sense of what's most important but um with that I've taken up three minutes so all of that seven more. Yeah I think I think it's kind of a you can consider what we do with sort of carrots and sticks and kind of maybe uh an affirmative maintenance bylaw is no way a regulatory um tool um but you can also think about what types of um tools can we think of for just like approaching property owners like you know helping them through the CPA process just those and that would be kind of a carrot um you know these things can work in tandem but that's one way to like maybe frame so like a CPA approach outreach yeah like that middle person you know I'll show them people through the process trying to figure out that I'll say that maybe have your hand up. Yeah I think um one thing I've seen in past um job experience that I've had is the presence of a revolving fund which can begin to create a pot of money that then offers people support financial support for getting evaluations of properties and structures um sometimes a revolving fund is managed by a friends of type organization so it would so that there isn't any kind of conflict of interest between an official town sanctioned commission and then this other organization and um you know I think a lot of buildings can then be the type of buildings to get support from a revolving fund um perhaps not for actual construction or renovation or preservation but maybe for help with evaluation you know the kind of problems we were seeing with the North Amherst church, the Zion church um that would I think have helped them a lot or will help them a lot in the future I should say yeah um I was also going to suggest uh Hedy and I had talked about um focusing on doing some forms for mid-century um significant mid-century buildings in Amherst since they are into getting into the period of being considered historical and I don't know that there's not much documentation there um I'm getting a better sense of how to do proper form B um any other ideas I mean um I don't know what we that I that I learned about the summer was just sort of the fact that one of the things commission is supposed to be on top of is kind of understanding where their inventory is at so I wouldn't necessarily say updating our inventory because that really requires um a huge amount of um you need you really need expertise and time um but um maybe analyzing our inventory to understand where um where things are are uh need updating because you know a lot of the records in MACRAS I mean like the one we saw today for um for uh 815 or 815 um you know that was what that would that was what would the historic the mass historic commission would call um not up to date that's you know not nearly enough information on the history of the building and the owners and the architecture and um so that that would be one really good to put on a list so do we know when the kind of bigger inventories in town were um created is it just is is it this 1980 inventory is that the latest one or are there kind of a series of them in MACRAS um yeah sorry yeah I mean 80 so early 80s and 88 there was a really big push so you know hundreds of properties were inventory then uh there's been subsequent inventories you know a few hundred properties um maybe 300 since then so anytime a local historic district has been examined the inventory forms were updated so you know that there's that um we had um a planning and survey grant for inventory outbuildings and PVPC has done a little bit more recently but that may that may add up to 150 200 buildings in our property somewhere uh area forms for properties for farm farm buildings assemblages of buildings but yeah most of the inventory is quite old um I was going to also say I think this is a great discussion to have in light of you know PVPC is updating the preservation plan so I think you know we have this conversation for another meeting or so we can get you know we could synthesize and feed them to Shannon that Pioneer Value Planning Commission and she also plans you know come back to the commissions maybe in March or April and have a discussion as well so this you know this is a good time to be thinking about this also in light of how to incorporate those goals or ideas into the preservation plan. Yeah and actually that's a good point I mean it might be because I've just thrown it out at everybody you know for this 10-minute period but um when we could start here and people could maybe think you know I know that like my ideas come to me just when I'm walking around or driving around and I think oh right you know that thing so um yeah but I just thinking of like I'm trying to think of what we we asked people about on our survey I mean it was you know are you updating your inventory do you have educational outreach you know CPA um yeah um yeah yeah I mean you know I was at I was the town manager asked recently like oh do we have any markers or signs for national register districts and you know we talked about this years ago we the former chair kind of you know developed a design we're having the wayfinding system that's going getting in place so you know you know as part of the outreach or just public education you know that's something that it could that could be a part of it right just having a lot of class or markers and then also you know district signs and so you know it's not you know I think that could be important you know we'd have to get you know it's interesting I don't know how much people would say that's CPA eligible but you know it is something that if we think it's important we could figure out how to how to fund it yeah um I mean my feeling on uh markers for CPA is it seems to me like nobody has challenged it you know it's even intrinsic to you know if you're going to preserve a building and you do all this effort to sort of you know figure out what the history of was people who walking by aren't going to know anything unless there's unless there's a marker so I think that's a great idea and I'm reminded that I walked by was it the Allen House that bed and breakfast and they have a marker that says that they received a preservation award from the historic commission the historic commission gave out preservation awards so that might be something to consider you know nothing about oh go ahead well you can continue that thought I was going to change the subject do you know anything about that name when that happened or if it was it was there was there more than one award yeah the probably in the 2000s and 2000 teens there was probably preservation awards of merit or you know just preservation awards so they're offered to different properties that were renovated or you know that had been maintained and so the idea was just to have you know some recognition of properties or you know projects in town and so it never you know it kind of fizzled I think some of it was you know at one point the thought was could it also be a partnership with historical society you know is it a good way to try to bring different organizations together and so you know maybe whether or not the same kind of program is enacted again you know is there you know I always thought like is it you know would it lead to something whether it's a forum or some type of discussion with different agencies in the town or in the town but yeah the awards were given out I mean you know we the idea was to try to you know really highlight that and so I you know it did go on for a few years and I think there was you know usually an article in the paper and but then you know then it didn't I feel like it we didn't catalog it very well and then I don't think we used it after the fact so okay someone got an award how are we how is that incorporated into public education or some type of you know public that that transition very well right yeah but I you know I think it was I think it it did I mean there's a number of awards made I think it was I think it really did highlight important projects and properties okay so a revival of the program could be something that they could consider Madeline we were going to say oh yeah so I was I completed the survey that was sent around for preservation um and I saw that we had a tool for the designation and protection of scenic roads which I was not familiar with but I'm interested in learning more about and if we can do anything for that yeah the town the town designated scenic roads in 1974 it was a little early adopter so it was pretty amazing actually yeah we were talking to someone else in another town and they were trying to get scenic roads adopted now and I was like oh okay did Amherst have any I was like yeah they're so old that no one knows about them I just have to share with you that we had a house in Stovermont and the road was a national nationally preserved it was a dirt road and at one end it was Emily's bridge over Goldbrook that had the real history from the 1700s and so the road was preserved and it could never be paved it could never be changed and let me tell you mud season was very interesting coming and going that's a Vermont or I know you need I grew up on a dirt road did you really well this is a beautiful traffic so it was a good place to go it was traffic and this was not a long well it was probably a couple miles long but it went from a paved road to a paved road and really the only attraction on it was Emily's bridge which was close to a paved road but it had beautiful views and we just suffered through mud season appreciated the tranquility well does anybody have anything else I want to throw on the list for now if something pops into your head send me an email I'll keep a running tally and we can bring it up at our next meeting too the only other thing I thought about I think Hedy and I talked about architectural tours yeah okay next agenda item is an update on the CPA proposal for the Amherst Zion Church of the Nazarene we're really known as the North Congregational Church also historically known as the North Congregational Church yeah so staff went out and met with the church and they're using an architect from Cune Riddle who had developed plans for roofing fixing the gutters and some of the there's some rot along the fascia and some of the trim the it's too bad the congregation is small and at one point the church 200 to 300 families would actually attend and so at one point it was really well used and really a center in North Amherst and I'd love to bring it back to that but it's not that it's been neglected I think that both the Parishol and the church are in pretty good shape surprisingly the church it seems like the foundation may have been repaired in the 50s it was pretty solid block under there like cinder block below grade a lot of it's been finished so it's hard to get a good look but we walked around and so we explained that what we'd like to see is it doesn't even have to be a full plan but some type of report just outlining what are the steps to maintain the church so you know roof so building envelope if it's roof siding windows foundation and kind of develop a priority list of what are the actions needed really just to stabilize the structure so like I mentioned like framing roof right windows siding all those things and come back with an estimate you know interior it could be worked on there but really in terms of CPA eligibility we're looking at the structural preservation and so they said they would do that I mean it is it could be a really big ask if they did originally ask for quite a bit you know for instance the scaffolding to paint the building was over $100,000 which I know is probably that amount years ago when the CPA funded preservation of the chimneys at the Jones library this is I guess almost 10 years ago the scaffolding cost I think was $70,000 originally estimated for that so but yeah the church seems to be in pretty good shape the windows have storms on them we talked about you know different techniques whether they have interior storms or could you replace the exterior storms the windows the glazing on the window seems to be actually in pretty good shape it does need to be painted as part of a maintenance and preservation program the roof has some deflection so it's the original slate is actually really good shape but there is some structural members that have deteriorated in the roof I did a report on the church for one of my classes and I recall correctly it looks like there's there's asphalt on the north side of the roof and slate on the south side um no I thought it was all slate I think the slate on the north is discolored or you know different color but I didn't oh okay okay okay yeah um so you know I think they're gonna they had a structural engineer look at it just informally and I think after our meeting they were going to with the architects help have some other professionals take a look at the building and make sure that you know everything is true and plumb and in good shape they might have to do some exploratory work on the foundation and framing but you know we're hoping to get some type of you know we told them it could just be a few pages right but some type of summary document and some outline the CPA committee has reserved $165,000 which could be available if they wanted if they needed more money would have to be it could be folded into next year or figure out how to do something but the roof estimate was about 155 and that's pretty firm right now um you know they were going to try to get they had one one contractor provide an estimate they've asked for three the two others have for whatever reason just you know some have come they haven't provided great information and so they're trying to get at least another estimate but the contractor they had is known to work on slate older slate roofs so he does churches and other buildings I mean I almost think that that could hold water the roofers around anymore but most of the slate looks really good so they're hoping that the deflection hasn't broken the slate so they're hoping that was the deflection so in the roof it's a you know it's a a Perlin system and some of the Perlins have have rotted and so then the the bents are in two sections the you know essentially the main rafters are have also rotted so they've been and so yeah I mean surprisingly it seemed really in pretty good shape so you know I was I was encouraged you know the walls are pretty good and everything everything's pretty straight and true so you know we'll try to get that report and then move move forward you know the church said they would love to be come part of the community again so right the Boy Scouts used to use the church or the parish hall there used to be other events there and maybe just over time you know they've owned it for a few years now but you know they really said they'd love to have it be open to the community and I think that's you know I think they were sincere about it so um have you so the there's an organization called SACES that works specifically with churches with small congregations to optimize their space and um I can I can forward the information to uni if you want to forward it on to them I mean they think they'd be like an excellent candidate they're they they essentially provide I mean they have grants but I wouldn't I wouldn't be going in that direction with them but they provide this consulting service specifically for the kind of struggles that this particular church even though it's like a sort of a newer one is up against to sort of you know how do you maintain an old structure with a small congregation and limited funds and I'd love to see them um you know make contact with them because it seems like it would their intention and um and certainly the capacity of that space you know it's huge so yeah if you could that be great so yeah we asked the architect to to reach out you know I provided some information about community preservation coalition or you know looking at and I we recommended trying to find other grants so if you send me that that'd be great okay Massachusetts preservation projects fund application is due in March which the timing isn't great but I think this project you know would be an eligible candidate for that through the Massachusetts Historical Commission um yeah I mean my um I looked at some videos for um presentations on projects that had received the MPFF and I think the biggest challenge there is that it's incredibly tight timeline and the people who presented were you know they were essentially historic museums with staff that were capable of you know kind of marching really quickly through um so that's that's the challenge there yep okay any questions anybody nope um old business policy for historic preservation restrictions yeah I mean I think you already discussed this previously and maybe I have been discussed earlier as well with Ben but you know the CPA statute doesn't necessarily require a permanent restriction every time CPA funds are used on a property for historic preservation you know the language states it's um when you acquire a property and so it's been interpreted to mean when you actually purchase a property for historic preservation or for historic purposes and so you know Northampton doesn't really put restrictions on properties when they use CPA funds and it varies from you know that to always a permanent restriction that seeks that needs Massachusetts Historical Commission approval and Amherst has kind of gone that route where you know every time CPA funds are used we need a permanent deed restriction and then it needs to go through Massachusetts Historical Commission and there's really a big time lag and you know Robin talked about too like what's the how are these restrictions monitored I mentioned this to the assistant town manager Dave Zomac and you know we've talked about it off and on and I think it is important I think you know there's we could probably facilitate historic preservation projects if we had you know I don't know I'll call it a local policy I don't you know I'm not even sure if it's a bad or a procedure but you know whether there's a dollar threshold or we you know the commission has some ideas about how to move forward I think you had discussed it and it can be flexible but I you know it's really hard you know does a $30,000 project really need a permanent restriction does a $200,000 project depending on the project itself and so you know for instance the JCA has been in limbo and they're getting a little anxious because we've been holding money with holding money to get this restriction this permanent restriction and so Mass Historic is really not budging on a few parts of it and you know for instance it's now the whole property well the whole property has changed since that there was the church in the parish hall now includes more buildings and different things and so you know Mass Historic is saying well it needs to be the property needs to be this and it's not really relevant to what the work was done and so you know even a 30-year restriction if the town had it would still be worthwhile and then if the you know the property would come back in CPA funds say on year 20 then a new restriction or time could be added so there's always this ability to like you know roll preservation and restrictions even if it wasn't permanent so I don't know I just you know I think it's something that if the commission wants to pick up again more formally I think it's I think it's probably a good time to do that. Is it possible for you to bring ideas to us that we can comment on as opposed to us bringing the policy to you? Yeah I thought Bennett mentioned that you know your commission had said well even you know half a million dollars as permanent and under could be less I mean so you know the when Ben called the number of communities last year and we did some research you know some had a dollar value some had a value that was proportional to the assessed value some just said you know so if it's over 200,000 it's always permanent if it's a certain percentage it's permanent and so it really varies I mean some communities like I said don't have anything and maybe I think well if it's a really prominent visual building we'll have it be permanent but you know some really don't have any kind of any rationale to it it's it's all over the map. It really is and yeah so I think you know like the Tiffany window when that was restored the restriction is really on just the front facade of the UU and it has a number of conditions and you know they when they've done their renovation projects they seek town approval and they're still following the restriction and it's worked really well you know Hope Church has a permanent one they also received other funding but you know like yeah I so I mean I feel like it could just be a really simple statement from the commission you know I can I can get something I know I have there's a there's a draft document somewhere I can I can find that Ben had started. Okay great yeah I mean my biggest concern I think with the preservation restrictions is that they're useless if nobody's monitoring them so you know there's no point in engaging with MHC if nobody's going to do just a regular monitoring process and I think I've said this before monitoring sounds kind of negative and like policing but just you know checking in and also educating the owners on the historic character of the building so when I met with the people I met with the North Amherst the Amherst Eye on Church because they let me study their building for my classroom work and one of the things that the classroom mentioned was how they they would they would like to have a central aisle and that would mean disrupting the historic pews that are in there and you know that's just sort of a you know just feel like those conversations would be so helpful to help people steward these buildings along you know after they've received money from us even if you even if you didn't have an internal restriction to just you know help educate people about why maybe a central aisle would be a bad idea you know but um yeah so that that's that's my one comment anybody else I mean I will say that for instance the fmar conchie house you know standalone place they were allocated cpa funding and I think their board is still discussing whether or not they would will accept the cpa funds because the restriction is a permanent one and it would cover the entire property and I try to make the case that maybe we could have a you know a preservation area that's not the property and again you know because when it was inventory and when it's significant it did include the condominiums or the other property but you know mass historic doesn't seem to be willing and so you know we get into this situation where you know in theory everyone says oh we'll accept a restriction but once they get into it and they look at it it becomes actually an obstacle um you know some of the legal requirements and just how it has to go through approval I'm not saying local restriction is a pushover but you know it can be a seven page document that has you know requirements for for maintenance for upkeep for insurance for keeping it open to the public for seeking commission review if there's changes it gets recorded at the registry so it runs with the property for the time it's in effect and you know so if any changes do happen there is recourse or you know hopefully we keep a dialogue open so Unitarians and the other churches that have a restriction will notify the town I mean the UU does a great job they'll send me a few times a year you know here's what we've been doing you know we have it open viewing we have interpretation for the mural and it's I think it's worked really well and so I feel like a local restriction is sufficient I just you know it's different than open space or housing where it always seems to be permanent housing isn't actually now but I think it's just a amorous tradition using CPA funds is always permanent and so it's a break from that I think that's where I might need some education with the CPA committee as well thank you anybody any other comments okay a national register nomination yeah that was there I've been talking to Shannon you know remember she mentioned that mass historic with these older inventory forms they want all of them updated right it's terrible I get it I get it because they would like to have things in a newer digital format you know the ones we have are scanned and they're not they can't even be OCR so you can't even do character recognition it's just a scanned image and so it's really hard to do any keyword searching or research using those documents there's very little information on them too there is and so yeah we said let's move forward so I was looking at we have some pots of money and I need to just kind of pick it up with Shannon but she said sure our contract with her is pretty much over and so we were just kind of going back and forth a little bit but you know we had the commission already said let's try to finish up what started and so I think that's what we can do okay yeah I asked Mass Historic and Shannon again can we really negotiate with Mass Historic and I was reaching out and they really aren't I know and I'm writing those things now so I know how many hours goes into they're really fun but they really take I mean yeah they take a lot of time okay so barn tours we talked about trying to get something going for September and I will admit I have not I have not made any progress on that thought that it's on the agenda to remind me to I don't think anybody else has any comment on that so yeah I'll try to have something together for our meeting in March that brings us to public comment looks like we still have three members of the public in our audience so if anyone from the public would like to make a public comment at this time you may raise your hand in order to do so okay I don't see any hands raised so that brings us to unanticipated items does anyone have any unanticipated items okay then that brings us to our next meeting date so we have the February 27th meeting that's for the demolition delay hearing but March do we have a tentative date I'm not sure we do but maybe we could talk about what works for everyone yep I'm not available until the week of the 13 and that's true for me also how is Wednesday night any good for people the 15th fine for me I actually have another night meeting that night regularly have Wednesday nights conflict the first and third are planning board evenings and so that's usually okay about Monday does that work the 13th the 13th Monday night the 13th the 13th works for me yep better okay so our next meeting will be Monday the 13th of March that's 6 30 p.m yeah thank you everyone do we have to formally adjourn yeah I think I get to just call it so adjourning the meeting at 8 13 p.m. thanks everybody anything else okay thank you good night everybody good night