Hi, I'm really had Sounds good Anyway, I'm really happy to be here and I'm especially happy because Sheila is going to do this with me I'm usually having to do this by myself out there and it's nice, but it's kind of lonely up there So this is good and Sheila's a great actress I met her through a friend when we went to see her in our town everyone knows that play and and She was like you were the narrator which is unusual because usually it's a man that narrates but she pulled it off with flying colors and at that time when I Met her was like before when I was just starting to write the book and I had like about 10 pages and I read it was up in the wine not the wine country the gold country right Sonora was around that area and That's where she used to live at the time And so I read it up there and then she was saying one day Maybe we can do something the other because I used to act to believe it or not and so this is kind of one of those dreams come true and What we're going to do is the section where it would be appropriate for her to be in it since you know the book There's not she couldn't play every part. Maybe you could but visually we don't want to strain you She's gonna play a nurse horn, maybe one day miss Humphrey in the bar scene But tonight we thought we'd do the nurse couple the nurse horn scenes And I'm gonna do a scene that nurse horns not in by myself the Sean scene So you'll get an idea of Stevie's boyfriend before she meets nurse horn so Anyway, I don't know how many some of you have probably read the book right how many of you done your homework here at the library Okay, many of you, you know, I went to I did a reading sometimes people read like about that's about a good normal and You're a normal San Francisco But it was capitol. I did a reading capitol. We had a really good size audience about like this, you know Santa Cruz, so But I said how many have read the book I mean one person One in Santa Cruz, but they were there. They'd heard of me. They came out, but they hadn't read it They carried it around looking cool, bro, you know, but they had read it But this one person got to kind of dictate it or what I read that night. Well, what do you think? It would always be there, you know, nobody else can say anything But this time we already know what we're going to read because a lot of places I go and I say What do you want to hear and you'd be surprised? Maybe you wouldn't be most places All I went all over the country most of the country the south the Midwest the east I've been to about 16 cities and The most popular section was the diary section those of you've read the book, you know People just wanted me to get nasty wherever The diary, you know grown people so Anyway But this tonight we already know we're going to do class We don't have a chance for input, but I think you'll enjoy it the book is set in 19 starts in 1965 It goes from 1965 to 1970 it starts when the main character Jean Stevie Stevenson is 11 and a half and a lot of it is her struggle to grow up in spite of her mother's help and And you know some of it's funny and some of it's kind of they said some people described as harrowing I don't know if I'd go that far. Okay harrowing to me is not yeah, not not not based on your life No, he said that's not harrowing. I wouldn't go there for but you know poignant. It is poignant at times Anyway, so a lot of it's about friendship Coming to turn growing up, you know sexuality Little peer stuff, etc. And we're gonna move along from oh, let me say this too about the book It's been nominated by the American Library Association, especially since we're in the library here It's best book of 94 fiction young adult young adult so Maybe it will win But even if it doesn't win it's the important thing is it was nominated and I am thankful and Honored also, it's number two in the country in black bookstores or black readers in the essence and blackboard now Now you wouldn't know by looking at this audience But I'm very I have a very diverse following so Anyway, but it's it's very universal I'm really glad because the book is able to cut across all lines and different parts of country different people come out, but it has really You know been able to appeal to people across all you know race gender, etc. So that's I'm really pleased about Let's see I'll start I'm just getting people you know I'm talking a little so that people can come in and sit down so we don't have them doing that when we're I'm doing it So you can come up here Let's see. I don't know if you two can sit together unless you'll be behind him because You might want to sit like this We aim to please here, okay Okay, this is 1969 this is set in Chicago some of you will remember 1969 in fact It looks like all of you in here could remember the few exceptions should be able to remember well 69 I mean wasn't that long and Actually Sheila this first scene you're in it. I know you remember This first scene Sheila's in it. We're gonna do two scenes where Two of them. We're both in and the middle scene You're not in it So I'll come back here so they won't have the illusion of you being in it by me sitting over there So I'll come over here and join you and then I'll leave to do the scene that's in between Yeah So this is the first time we've done this so don't Don't expect now. It's gonna be good.  Yeah, I should bring Okay, okay, this is like 1969 remember those years Okay, good. I Was sitting in all and Stevie's 16. I should say that or since you just made 16. Yeah junior in high school I was sitting in the office of my guidance counselor. Mrs. Stewart.  I Looked at the big clock on the wall. It was 10 after 2 Mrs. Stewart was 10 minutes late My homeroom teacher had told me that I needed to meet with her to plan my future Since I had been accepted into the junior honor society. I Was surprised to hear a white woman's voice. I'm tired of just being seen from my color Nurse Horn's side and ran her fingers through her short brown hair. I Washed as a school nurse followed Mrs. Stewart into the office I've been down to nurse Horn's office with cramps a few times. So we nodded at each other I want to be seen as an individual too Nurse Horn continued. I marched with dr. King. I was arrested during freedom summer in Mississippi Pamela, I'm not just any white person Diane do you think you deserve a medal? Mrs. Stewart asked folding her arms against her rust colored suit No, I don't think that I deserve a medal But I am tired of black people who haven't paid half as many dues making judgments about me I want to be judged by the content of my character like dr. King said If you're a black You don't have to march to pay dues Diane you pay dues just by breathing Mrs. Stewart glanced at me gene. Sorry to have kept you waiting. I'll be with you as soon as I can That's okay I'm not in any rush Pamela How can things ever change if we don't get to know each other's people? What do we march for anyway? I marched with dr. King to Diane and I didn't march just so that black folks and white folks could be bosom buddies I marched for equal opportunity and justice Well as long as the black teachers sit at one end of the teachers lunchroom and the white teachers sit at the other end What's the difference between today in the 50s? We may as well go back to separate but equal Look, it was separate, but it was never equal What's the gene? I? Shook my head remembering the picture of the two water fountains in my afro-american history book White people have made it quite clear that they don't want to live next door to us Haven't they gene I nodded some white people. I don't appreciate being lumped together with all white people Pamela Mrs. Stewart continued all It takes is for one black family to move into a neighborhood and the for sale signs go up so fast it makes your head spin and White folks have made it crystal clear that they don't want their children to go to school with us Haven't they gene? That's true. I agree. Nurse horn looked at me with her soft gray eyes. I Didn't have anything against her but the truth was the truth. I mean what else could I say some white people Pamela? Like Jesse Jackson says it's not the bus. It's us So no wonder we need to separate to figure out who we are as black people How much rejection can you expect people to take? right gene Right, I answered. I mean Mrs. Stewart had a point So does that mean if I see you sitting with black teachers at a table and I join you You will pretend that I'm not there again When I taught at a white school over on the northwest side, I had to sit alone I had to eat alone. No one gave me the time of day Sometimes I felt like I was invisible Is that how you want me to feel? Look Diane if you come into the teacher's room and I'm alone you can join me Otherwise Wait for an invitation. Okay? I'm supposed to forget your black on one hand and then on the other hand. I'm never supposed to forget your black Is that it? That's what we have to do. Isn't that so gene? For an odd moment Nurse Horn and I exchange glances Okay, that's one thing. All of this is going to take place in the fall of 69 and this is a little after that And this is a scene with Stevie and Sean Her soon to become boy friend I grabbed a handful of junk out of the locker next to mine It had been vacant since the beginning of the school year a tall stranger wearing a navy p-coat stood in front of the locker Holding a briefcase and a combination lock I'm sorry. I didn't know any it had been assigned anybody. I guess I'll never get the good housekeeping seal That's okay. He smiled. He was cute. He looked like Jermaine of the Jackson 5 And is he wanted to beat all with his bronze skin and big fro? Hey, haven't I seen you before I smiled Aren't you supposed to ask me what my sign is instead? No job. I'm being for real. It's your eyes. They're so pretty. I know I've seen you before Well, it is possible. This is my third year here. I am a junior I'm new. I just transferred in. I'm a senior.  I repeat it respectfully. He nodded What did you transfer from? Leo high school That's a Catholic boy school. Yeah, I noticed Sean from frown Why'd you transfer your senior year? That must really be hard Sean shrugged Well, so how come you're starting over a month into the semester? I asked I Went back to Leo and I just realized it wasn't my bag. I didn't want to be around nothing but dudes And besides I was tired of the whole Catholic trip And I'm ready to have some fun this year Sean smiled. Hey, won't you have to go to confession? Hell no because I'm not Catholic Well, what were you doing in a Catholic school then? He lost a black folks who aren't Catholics and their kids to Catholic schools That's true. My old friends Melody and Linda go to Mercy High School and neither them are Catholic They go to faith AME just like I do.  First I thought Sean was jive Now I wondered if he was crazy Although he didn't look off you never could be sure I Was Jesus Christ Sean was definitely off. I thought I Start to back away from him come back Peter You are my disciple. Oh, I smiled a light finally going on in my head the Easter play I remember you too Sean.  I will have denied him. I recite it.  I mean neither of the Mary's had much of a speaking part You were great Thanks, my mother made my costume Two robes Outer one was striped and the other one was solid maroon. She even made a turban out of the striped material Hey, you were lucky to have a mother who would buy material and make a costume just for a Sunday school play I remember that all the other kids had been draped in things like sheets towels bath robes and birdcage covers I Guess I was sort of lucky So are you coming back to faith? I asked We're United Methodist now my uncle's church. Oh By the way, what is your name and your sign while you're at it? Oh I'm sorry Jean, but you can call me Stevie. That's right. I remember now and I'm a Libra. I smiled Hey, I'm a Gemini Hey, you're not hooked up with anybody. Are you? No, not really I flashed on rolling for a minute, but I reminded myself that we were just friends He never made a move or anything Good then. Let's let's see we get go get a milkshake after school is over. Well Come on now. Don't deny me this time. Sean Alright, I agreed Always been a sucker for dimples And besides my birthday wish might come true, I thought You know what next time we shouldn't get carbonated water Let's get ready to belch knock and belch in this scene. She gets to belch There are a couple times hope. I don't it was close Now is this this is good now This is about a month. They couldn't hear Time can this is I guess a little bit later month later or so It'll be revealed whenever it is month or two months. You know how it is in high school You go together two weeks. That's long. They practically married by now. You know, this is November.  I Remember that Tyrone had promised to make a stink bomb in chemistry lab this afternoon I couldn't wait to see the look on mr. Everly's face. I Sat up and blinked in the November sunshine that poured into the school nurse's sorry office Nurse horn was bent over her desk reading something. So I checked out the posters on the tire green walls. I Studied the four food groups and yawned at the picture of the Red Cross nurse with a silly smile on her face The posters got old quick So I started thumbing through a fashion magazine Nurse horn wasn't skinny or glamorous like the ladies in the pictures But she wasn't fat and she was attractive in her own way She wore her hair short That's so short that she looked like she was about to go into the Marines But probably too short for most men's tastes Wondered if nurse horn would have found a husband by now if she wore her hair longer She was pretty old not to be married She looked every day of 25 as mama would say How's the patient nurse horn turned around smiling She'll live I guess you guessed you seem a whole lot better.  How come you're in a bathrobe What happened to your uniform? I asked pointing to the white dress draped over the heater Oh Crystal Jones vomited on me this morning. I made a face. Yeah All in a day's work. I keep this robe handy for just such emergencies Crystal Jones threw up on you this morning more Morning sickness. I whispered excitedly Nurse horn raised her eyebrows like she knew she'd let the cat out of the bag I didn't say that she tried to pretend like I was totally off base And I shouldn't have mentioned Crystal's name to you at all nurse horn let out a sigh as she shook the thermometer down and Walked toward her desk You didn't have to the word is already out. This just puts the icing on the cake Some folks say it's Calvin's baby, but Carla says Dwayne was Crystal's main squeeze a few months ago Nurse horn turned around and faced me shush. I don't want to hear another word about it. This is not some sort of game You're talking about a person's life, and I won't listen to you make light of some poor girl's misfortune There's horns eyes narrowed and I could tell she wasn't jiving I Started getting dressed and there's horn sat down at her desk and began writing out my past I'm supposed to tell you that a young man came by while you were asleep Sean that's my boyfriend. Isn't he cute? I pulled on my corduroy pants. I Believe he did say his name was Sean. I stuck my head through my turtleneck Actually, Sean is what you call fine And he's a senior Shoot plenty of girls wish they could get next to Sean Out of all the girls. I'm the one he asked to go with him. It was like a dream I was Cinderella, and he was the prince. I put on my boots You're not in love by any chance There's horn turned around at her desk I guess you could run a train up my nose. I answered I Stood behind there's horn waiting for her to give me my pass But she just sat there staring out the window like she was in a daze Did I say something wrong? It's snowing It's the first snow of the season. Yeah, but I bet it won't stick. I hope it does.  Will you have to shovel it just?  I tried to force a laugh There's horn turned and looked at me again, but a smile was nowhere near her face She made no move to give me the pink slip of paper on her desk gene. I Guess I'm a little concerned about you now frankly Concerned about me. Why what are you concerned about me for? Hey, I'm not the one who's pregnant. I Didn't know where nurse horn was coming from. Why was she tripping on me? I didn't want her putting me in the same boat with Crystal Jones Nurse horn looked me dead in the eye Not yet. At least you're not pregnant this month. I Felt myself getting all hot around the collar and I jumped back and put my hands on my hips You got no right to say that. Hey, I've known the fact since I was 12 Do you know that if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned? Do you know that fact there's horn stood up and faced me with her arms folded?  I was even about an inch taller than her Who says I'm playing with anything? I raised my eyebrows and folded my arms, too There's horn cleared her throat. I didn't say that you were well. Why are you all up in my business thing? I came down here to get well not to catch hell Wish it was time for chemistry and I was learning how to make a stink bomb instead of dealing with this mess I'm sorry. You see it that way. How was I supposed to see it? I wondered Why was this woman all over my case here?  I turned 16 almost two months ago I was the only 16 year old virgin left on the whole south side of Chicago according to Carla Look even if I was doing something, how could you help me? Could you get me the pill without my mother knowing the only pills I can give you are aspirins, you know that But I can't help you determine what you want out of life Maybe I don't want to determine what I went out of life. Maybe I just want to live Nurse horn sugar head. I just know what can happen and I'm concerned. That's all I don't need your concern Just because I said I have a boyfriend you start getting on my case It hit me the nurse horn was probably jealous of me because she was an old maid But that still didn't give her the right to jump on my case Nurse horn started pacing with her arms folded. I just don't want you to end up another statistic a statistic Oh, please. I threw my hands up in the air First of all, my name is Jean Stevie Stevenson not Crystal Jones and second of all You need to be concerned about the statistics of your finding a husband instead of worrying about me.   I tried to sound tough Jean you're skating on awfully thin ice Nurse horn pointed her finger up in my face again. I was scared mad at the same time There's horn had her nerve talking about smacking somebody. What did she think this was gone with the wind? You don't have to point your finger up in my face.  I Stuck my hand out for my past Nurse horn knew I'd get stopped in the hallway without it She started waving her arms in the air all dramatic like just go over there and sit down I wish the woman would make up her mind Nurse horn glanced up at the clock. This period is halfway over anyway. I Don't want you to leave with things like this.  I Got it from a health food store in Newtown I plopped down on the cot and watched nurse horn fill up the teapot and plug it in I Had never even tasted peppermint tea before Nurse horn was really a trip. I thought One minute. She was going off on me and the next minute. She was making me tea It wasn't like we were in England or some damn where I Sat across from nurse horn staring into my cup and breathing the peppermint steam Nurse horn leaned forward holding her cup with both hands She took a sip of her tea Jean Perhaps I was a little unfair to you and I apologize It's just that I see girls get into trouble year after year and sometimes I get frustrated In many ways it was easier when I was in high school back in the late 50s At least there weren't as many pressures. We certainly weren't in the middle of a sexual revolution They barely had TV back in the 50s. I thought to myself Nurse horn continue what I remember my best friend and her boyfriend getting suspended from school for wearing lookalike sweaters The administration didn't think it was appropriate. I rolled my eyes and shop. I Was glad it was 1969, but I didn't say anything. I just let nurse horn speak her peace It's part of my job to care about students, but I'm also a person I don't just shut my feelings off every day at 3 30 p.m. Nurse horn sips some more tea Finally looked up at her I Realized that I'd never even thought of nurse horn going home. I Guess I never pictured her outside of this office at least not without her uniform on But I had to admit that nurse horn probably was a person. I drank some tea I Feel that there's something special about you. I Know that you try to act tough But I remember the first time you came down here. You were just a scared freshman I was surprised that nurse horn can remember the first time I'd ever come down here I couldn't even remember that myself And it was hard to picture myself as a scared freshman a scared freshman I'm a mighty junior now Are you sure you don't have me mixed up with somebody else? positive I Know that you can be sensitive Maybe that's why I was so hard on you Because I think you have a lot of potential. I could hardly believe nurse horn was saying all this stuff I took a big drink of tea How do you know I have a lot of potential? Belched excuse me Or is that what you tell all the girls? Nurse horn smiled and set her cup on the floor. No, but it's what I'm telling Jean Stevie Stevenson The only time you see me practically is when I'm throwing up or rolling around in pain Well, I saw you in the school play and you're almost as dramatic You saw me in the effect of gamma rays on man in the moon merry-goats. I Was surprised that nurse horn kept up with things outside of her office. Yes. I did and I was quite affected Had to admit that I was good Carly had said girl you played your heart out up there on that stage Thanks, I said to nurse horn feeling shy all of a sudden No, we wanted to do no place to be somebody or nobody knows my name You know something really happening, but mr. Turner was too evil to check them out Nurse horn looked embarrassed like she didn't want to go along with bad mouth and the drama teacher. I slurped my tea So are you trying to tell me that you think I'm special out of all the jokers that come down here needing medical attention? I wouldn't put it exactly in those terms Well, when did you first?  Well, not quite. I Care about you and I want you to have a good life I switched some tea around in my mouth thinking and nobody had ever told me they wanted me to have a good life before a Good day. Yes, but not a good life If this was a TV show, this is when they play the music outside What music? You know the kind of music they used to play when they found lassie Nurse horn pinched my cheek playfully. I hadn't just made 16 I would have wanted to bury my face all up against her Terry cloth robe She looks so warm and cozy. I set my cup down on the floor nurse horn Yes, student Jean Okay, miss horn miss horn. I'm sorry about the stuff. I said about you needing to find a husband There's horn looked at me like everything was cool And I'm sorry about making light of some poor girl's misfortune, too There's horn leaned over and hugged me Felt myself get all stiff Wait a minute. I wanted to say hey, nobody hugs me except my grandmother. I'm 16 years old My mother doesn't even hug me. What is somebody walks in here and sees us all hugged up like we're in a Hollywood movie But it felt kind of good The Terry cloth was brushing up against my face and everything So I just broke down and wrapped my arms around nurse horn and hugged her back Then I began to inch away because I didn't know how long it's too long You know to be hugging on somebody nurse horn I Mean miss horn about Sean you see with Sean. I barely got my big toe in the water I mean, I want to swim out there in that ocean of love But in some ways I want to stay safe on the shore Nurse horn rested her chin in her hand like she was taking in everything. I was saying then the bell rang so loudly I jumped I started grabbing my stuff together Thanks for the tea and all I handed her my empty cup. It's been real But I got to get the chemistry Tyrone's gonna show us how to make a stink bomb Nurse horn frown. Well promise me you'll talk to me if you need to okay I promise and watch your nutrition and exercise regularly And you won't get such bad cramps. Okay, let's jump food and more sex. I grin Nurse horn pretended to hit me. I backed away laughing. Just kidding not gonna have my pass here and stay out of that ocean a Warm feeling went through me as I stumbled into the mad rush of students in the hallway. I Was glad the nurse horn wasn't married. I would hate to have to think of her going home to take care of some husband Instead I pictured her all curled up at home in a terry cloth bathrobe sipping peppermint tea and Smiling to herself because she was thinking about me Damn, I felt like running outside and tasting a snowflake Instead of going to chemistry and making a stink bomb Thanks, you're all our wonderful audience. You're great. We got through it. We've how many rehearses we only had To really to that's not bad. We didn't even stumble, you know, I was thinking you know Cuz some of I had to keep up with her like she's side. She is and I was just waiting to miss one of those I liked it. It was a great experience. I'm glad it's over. No No, it's wonderful now we get to kickbacks order and you get to ask questions you can ask Sheila talk I'm gonna let her talk some because I'm always doing this So, you know, just feel free to you know respond to say what you want to say tell us your life story Whatever, it's on tape on film So, yeah, we have where's Paul did he stand up yet? How is it how are we on time? We're fine Okay, so that'd be good for questions and answers Get that question, I don't tell me about tea. That's out of my league. Does anyone know about tea? Let me give my water My cup I reached for it one time. I was gonna drink my tea. I don't know. Do we have an answer? Can someone think of a funny? That we can keep Yeah, we'll work on that Water will make Say milk will make you know When Who's read the book some of you that are some of you have read the book maybe you'll respond your answer probably as good as mine What are you gonna say something? Don't put you yeah, you spoke up sir. Oh, that's a tough audience like I think I'm in the Midwest Usually they kind of laid back here She doesn't resist Shawn's charms. She's since she falls for Shawn, but she gets in conflict because she's also she's drawn a nurse horn in a whole different way, I feel nurse horn is more of a role model and It's a crush more of a crush like someone she admires where Shawn is her boyfriend, but She's kind of scared with Shawn She wants to have a boyfriend and she's attracted to Shawn, but she's kind of scared To of her sexuality with Shawn whereas nurse horn in some ways is safer But she's also kind of offering her more unconditional love rather than just what a teenager can offer her You know, what kind of 16-year-old boy really, you know, you know what I'm saying, okay? It's that kind of thing. He's that kind of conflict. It's that kind of party. Okay But read the book She gets my copy No, of course some of it not most let's see that we read any of none of the part that I read None of that part is all about the today tonight because there was no nurse horn, unfortunately You know, everybody needs a nurse horn. She's and I like but that she's a fictional character Shawn so what I had a boyfriend that could have been somewhat, you know, but I've made up this part It was fictional this whole these scenes They could have happened but they didn't But some of the book there are a few things that happened Yes Did I did grow up on the south side of Chicago I flew out I did I took a plane, but no, I went away to college to that was my first step And then I came out to the best San Francisco after I graduated for looking for a job. I got a job out here in my state Yes Downstate Illinois Western Illinois University. This is state school. They wanted me to go to more Ivy League school You know, but it was I wanted to be cool You know, it's like I didn't want to go they want no other counselors You know because I was like in the National Honor Society and all that that was true But it was like when I came out people were looking to find themselves and all that and it wasn't like he really wanted Bust your brain and I didn't want to go somewhere up in Vermont or New York You know, they had you know, how they you're one of I was like in the top and the school But I grew up on the south side of Chicago all black school and I didn't want to go to some of those schools I just said nah, I want to go where the friends are going and party, you know, that's what I did But in retrospect, I don't know who knows No, I went to Calumet, you know Chicago, you know Calumet you wouldn't send your child there now No, I used to go to the metal detectors. My niece goes there though. Now Yes, journalism. I don't think I took creative right journalism. I was on the school newspaper See this woman and I just have a conversation there. I rest of these people just forget about them. Yes What else would you like? No, what else? I played softball. No, no, I didn't know Took Spanish No, it takes a lot. No. Okay. Next. No, this is she's raking notes Well, this is on the library Yes, now they're afraid they're afraid of me She won't she's not as intimidating. I'm not as intimidating. She's sweet nurse horn. Look at it. I talked to nurse horn They're afraid. They're afraid. They're afraid of me. They're on there. I know they're being Okay Most fun It's hard to say there were different experiences different places in Taxes was unique. I'd say Chicago in a way because that was my home and they came out in force and especially the black women's Expo I went to Chicago two months in a row I did two bookstore readings there and a lot of you know media stuff But then I went back in March was there in February and went back in March and I did the black women's Expo And it was like hundreds of women it was thought, you know But in the the room that was auditorium for the black women speak and there were several of us And so they treated me like a home, you know coming home They're like, yeah, you know, they were crazy and it was fun And they were just right there and there are people from the high school like I said We're never like it was really, you know that I would say probably because it was a home But I had fun and what was hard to say fun because was grueling because I was like in some cities one day I was in New York a day and then DC and I like I left that morning went there and that night Leave it and I've gotten to some places at two something in the morning and all that stuff And then had to do a radio show at six or seven. So my schedule was grueling but Places that stand out in the way Philadelphia they came out in droves. I was surprised.  You never know where how place is gonna be and so Philadelphia They really came out and that was good Houston and Dallas were interesting because well, Houston was interesting because they had food They had rock shrimp or something, you know those gold shrimp they were like, I can't see it. Oh, you have food You know different places and she said, of course we have food, you know, you never know Different parts of the country are different like they wouldn't come without food.  They came they had cameras a lot of people I mean child got a whipping in my audience than that in in Dallas, you know, it's like everybody came You hit this child one more Preacher but I said girl she wore out.  So anyway, but I took a picture with the girl. I tried to you know, help our self-esteem And I said she's gonna grow up and be a writer and I had her held up in them. She's grinding They gave her a little free. I made them and I asked them to give her something and that kind of stuff But nobody flinched with me, you know, you're from the south. They don't I'm reading almost ready cry So that was kind of one But they really in Dallas were very warm, but the thing is they started very late. They're slow in taxi from Texas It's true. I believe we started about 45 minutes late maybe an hour. It was like they're calling.  I'm gonna try not to say that because it's on tape But they were beautiful warm wonderful people, but it was just like they say so-and-so on her way You know It's like, you know, it's already eight o'clock and they said well don't start so much. She just called, you know They just you know, they just finish it eating. They're just doing the dish there beyond their way They're coming and this is how it went on I mean, I swear we started 45 and Houston was late too But it was like the people came on in any old kind of time and I was like on the last page I swear I'd read for a half hour and then I came and they were still coming in sauntering in and they Didn't even rush about it and they were just coming on in anytime.  I said, well, it's nine o'clock. Yes You know that kind of thing, but it didn't bother them. They bought the book anyway That was another thing somebody said they probably having affairs and they said well, this is a proof I was there. I got the book. She read forever, you know They came at nine o'clock everyone. I mean everyone bought the book in houston Everyone in Dallas almost they all bought the book. It didn't matter whether they had heard a line or anything. It was like Oh, you finished already. Okay. I have six, you know sign these six It was like, you know, how do you know you want it? It was like the event of the, you know, you do it So they were different Milwaukee and they came in out Milwaukee and blizzard and droves They're kind of considered themselves part of Chicago. I guess so they saw it as a home And that was like I was in February and March most of February as you can imagine and They were tough that midwest, you know, like they try to tell you what to do too.  I want steve to do that. Why won't this but it was so cute in uh in houston when this one woman said I don't believe it was the last question. Those are always the you know, you never know You can make it through you think you made it through. Okay. This is one woman said I don't believe that steve was really that way Something to come up like that and it was just I just think she just liked the woman, you know, because nurse horn she was white But she was nice But you know what I mean, she was nice And I don't think she was that way. I think that people are trying to put that on steve But I don't really think no, I don't really think she was like that You know, so she never said anything but that way and like that. This was Like so it was and then when I first hit texas voice you're talking about texas. So our first hit texas It was like this radio come what are your undermining family values? No, this that's the other book is tain the library is nominated I didn't know that now it's nominated for book of the year for young adults. I mean What's not to like about that? You know, how can I be undermining family values? But anyway, so it was interesting going some part different parts of the country because the attitudes are different somewhat Not totally, but it's just more concerned. I'd say a little more in the midwest Um, too But then you get hip cool people everywhere too because I did another texas radio show where they were, you know Really cool. In fact, they were talking about reparations. You never know who you're gonna get and you do this radio show I might do one conservative show and then the next Minute they whisk me off to someone talking about one person saying why Why do you think black people are going down the drain?  What do you think sister? And I it's just woman hadn't read my book But I you know, you want the commentator to like you this is in Dallas and she's like so This sister is really kicking check it out On the radio, I'm like, you know, I'm not gonna antagonize her so but she goes but I had to I'm also with this publishing company major publisher And they do check you out what you say, you know, you don't get back to them sometimes I said I got she said, what do you think about reparations for African people or whatever, you know And I'm on the radio and I'm thinking well, how do I get out this now? I gotta, you know, I said, well, we need something I don't know about reparations. So she said write on sister. I saw the girls Sisters kicking check it out coffee will make you play. I was like, all right You know Because they can't get back to you know, you know hyperin is owned by Walt Disney They're wonderful too. No So anyway, how are we Paul standing up? We have five minutes this woman.  I can't tell you the title but um No, you'll never guess and um This is a two book deal when we sold the book, I'm gonna see if some of the little stories that get out are not all True, let me make sure I'm gonna tell you what happened in a real short version I had most of it was true Paul. You're pretty close, but you can't believe everything you read I can tell you that but um, let's see. I had I did do 20 pages that were the middle of the book when I read my first reading 125 not 100 and No, but that was close We had half a book when I sold it I found an agent and you're right the agents a few of them came to me because of the readings And so half a book and a synopsis sent it out to eight publishers Hyperion jumped the gun we gave them like two weeks or something Excuse me that that carbonated water. I'm telling you and so, um They they wanted it in three days. Most of them hadn't read it yet. I wasn't like I was known I wasn't unknown but hyperion read it first I suppose there were a couple crown at call they were interested avon wanted it So they did the paperback rights. They did we just sold them Uh, the paperback rights. We had like a two-day auction. So it was good. They were bidding war So we got and sold it to them. It was good. I'm out of I'm out of the red basically because of that so, um with my advances So it was like we sold the first half and they said we they gave us a me a take it or leave it offer that day Now see I didn't know you know, they probably would have stuck around at the time You know, I wasn't gonna pass it up because I didn't have anything So and mama hadn't raised no fool So they just said you have a two book deal And I took it take it or leave it So that's why I'm doing that's one reason I'm doing the sequel. I have no choice Other reasons. I probably want to do a second book anyway at some point But this way I was really locked into the contract to do a sequel with them So it will be coming out. I'm supposed to finish at the end of this year One final question that's you know with this We start 20 We hope so, um Disney Has the ask for the exclusive for the film rights. They let it run out But they haven't they won't say anything they won't pass they haven't passed and there are a few other people I think jody foster has it. They asked what harple opera has it She um, they called for it now that they couldn't we mail had to mail them the book too Could have bought it in the bookstore my mother said You mean to say opera couldn't go by that book as much money as she has you had to see I had to pay for these books I get a 40 percent. What do I get 40 percent? You know 40 percent I have to pay 40 percent or whatever or offer one of you know, the whatever the discount You mean to say opera have my mother you mean to say opera had to call out to california San diego to my asia to have you Uh, federal federal express a book to her and you have to pay for those books and you haven't seen a royalty check As much money as opera has just like you'd be just so excited to say opera wanted your book She could have sent someone down to buy but you know, of course now.  So maybe she'll do something with it. Who knows Anyway, is that it? Oh, we're wrapping up. Okay. Like we're finishing our filming and I was supposed to be till 8 30 I'll take a few questions after you shut down. So Yeah, are you shutting down? Yeah Thank you audience Look, even if I was doing something how could you help me? Could you get me the pill without my mother knowing the only pills I can give you are aspirins, you know that But I can't help you determine what you want out of life Maybe I don't want to determine what I want out of life. Maybe I just want to live There's horn sugar ahead. I just know what can


Welcome to our interview show in which we interview LGBTQ guests who are important contributors to our community. We want to acknowledge that all things LGBTQ is produced at Orca Media in Montpelier, Vermont, which is unceded Indigenous land. Enjoy the show. Welcome, Alferuc. I'd like to start by reading your bio if I may, and I'll read it in the second person. And correct me if anything is wrong. Thank you. You were born in Tanzania, which your family fled in 1971 escaping political persecution. Your parents arrived in Canada in 1974 and settled in Vancouver where you grew up. You earned a law degree from the University of British Columbia before moving to Ottawa in 1988. You've lived and worked in Toronto since 1989. You're a member of the Law Society of Upper Canada, and you've been in private practice since 1993, although now you've been much more involved in human rights law. We could talk about that. Yeah, I actually don't do, my practice is actually confined to just doing refugee work, but so my activism, my community activism is around human rights. And the lens for that human rights activism through my law practice is refugee work. Excellent. On June 26, 2014, you married your longtime partner, Troy Jackson. Congratulations. Thank you. Congratulations to you both. You were the 2009 Parade Grand Marshal for Toronto Pride. That must have been fun. It was. In May 2009, the Toronto Unity Mosque, El Tahid Juma Circle, if I pronounce that right, was founded by Laurie Silvers, a University of Toronto Religious Studies scholar, alongside you and your husband Troy Jackson. Unity Mosque ETJC is a gender equal LGBTQ affirming mosque, a rarity from what I understand. Two more quick points. In 2016, you were named by the Advocate Magazine to a list of 21 LGBT Muslims who are changing the world. In 2018, you participated in a TED Talk about intersectionality and validity of gay Muslims. One more quick point.  I mean, this is just a brief summary of what you do, El Farouk. Welcome again. Thank you. Let's talk about how you happened to start the Unity Mosque in 2009. So the starting of the Unity Mosque itself is part of a much longer process. And I want to acknowledge that I'm here in Toronto, which is the traditional territories of a number of different nations, but most recently the Mississaugas of the new credit. And I named this because it's common practice in Canada, but it is also integral to our mosque in terms of knowing our histories so we can go better in the future. So the starting of the Unity Mosque, or ETJC, in May of 2009 for me was a result of many years of different activities and activism. So starting Salam, and I actually started Salam not in 93, but in 1991.  And back then I wasn't prepared to sort of deal with the theological issues. I was thinking more along of the lines of creating community and networks and a place where people could come together where they didn't have to justify who and what they were. And maybe in sharing their stories they could find some healing and reconciliation and community and all of that. And for myself too. I often call myself the accidental activist and a lot of it is about my journey has been looking for space and not finding the space and so either creating or being part of creating it or recreating a space. So when I started Salam in 1991 I didn't know that whether there had been any other group and so on. Some years later I found out this is what the internet does. It sort of connects the world and sort of globalizes us on some level. And so I found out about an organization that had existed in San Francisco called the Lavender Crescent Society. And it had been it was in the 1970s and it didn't sort of end well. It did end and some people had unfortunate endings when they went back home because of surveillance and so on and so forth. But I didn't find out about this until sometime after I had started Salam. And so on some level I was saddened that this was the first queer Muslim organization. And I kept that alive for a couple of years and then close it.  There were some threats that had come in as a result of an article that I had written anonymously with another active member of the community. But I have a certain degree of visibility for a number of different reasons in terms of my other work and my other activism. And so some people seem to know that it was me that was being talked about and so on and so forth. So I closed Salam in 1993. And then it reopened in 1999 as al-Fatiha after that started in the United States. But I wasn't actively involved again for another couple of years. The name changed back to Salam. In the process of all of this sort of and I named this because in that process it became apparent that there were multifaceted needs. And for some people being Muslim was a social identity or cultural identity. For other people it was a religious identity or a racialized identity or a political identity or a spiritual identity. And people were looking for some people were looking for different kinds of spaces and ways to connect to different to their different aspects and to their different intersectionalities. In 2003 I ended up organizing the Salam al-Fatiha International Queer Muslim Conference here in Toronto. And at that time it became I was able to pull together a number of folks that I knew in the community at that time mostly folks who were Muslim or Muslim identified and queer. And we started doing some reaching out and so on and so forth. Now keep in mind this is after 9-11. And one of the things that 9-11 did the internet connected people who thought that they were unconnected or that they were alone. And you know it's done that in good ways and bad ways for good causes and bad causes. But it certainly brought certain types of Muslims who were questioning who were who wanted a more who had a more inclusive vision or who who were in search of something different than what their dominant culture Muslim communities might have provided them right. So these kind of conversations around social justice Islam and social justice around gender gender justice around sexuality and so including sexual orientation started to pick up they had already been taking place. But how do you connect people that are so far and wide dispersed right so first of all it was on yahoo groups and so on and so forth and then and then other and other modes. So these conversations had already started so when we started organizing the this conference in 2003 they were non-queer Muslims who were interested. What are you doing what oh this is really interesting blah blah blah it's different from from the dominant culture spaces right a different and different emphasis. So we had the first that I'm aware of and I always put it in that way because you know a lot of our histories are not written right for or not documented for a lot of different reasons including technology including fear including whole bunches of forethought or lack of it you know and in the moment. But the first sort of community Muslim prayer led by a female identified person in Canada was at this conference in June of 2003 here in Toronto. And you know it was the time when we had SARS so here we are with SARS 2 there was SARS 1 in Toronto and Toronto was on the no fly list. I was like expecting like 100 Americans and we ended up with only 30 Americans but we still ended up with 120 people at the conference and some people came from England some from Spain across Canada etc right um but it engendered uh an interest and people were interested in in this form of prayer and and uh and coming together in a sort of a judgment free environment and a pressure free religious environment. We tried to after the conference we tried to maintain the prayer but again how do you outreach it was just through the salam yahoo group it's in the middle of the afternoon it it didn't sustain after a while. So you know there were then we used to have special occasion uh female led prayers so International Women's Day we organized and we organized the the peace iftar starting in 2003 which was uh which is a bridge builder bringing Muslims and non-Muslims queers and non-queers together for during Ramadan to break bread together. So we would usually have women leading prayer or queer folk leading prayer and so on and so forth. So there were all these sort of little things that were happening and then in 2009 Lori had moved up here so Lori is actually American and Lori moved up to Canada you know people travel the world for love so Lori traveled to Toronto for love not for me but for for her spouse and um and we had known each other online we had met each other online through the Muslim sort of activist Muslim community and so she was here for a while and at one point she sort of came to me and said let's do this and this is part of an ongoing conversation about mosque spaces and so on and so forth and so long story short or short story long as you will she comes to me and I said well I can't do this without without Troy I need to have a buy-in because I I understand that you need to have uh at least some kind of a buy-in from your spouse if you are in a in a relationship because you know community work is commitment and it and it is also emotional labor uh so uh Troy was fairly new to Islam at that point in time but uh he was uh into the idea of it and so the three of us came together to uh start the unity mosque we wanted a place where everybody was welcome where you didn't have to hang up some part of yourself at the door in order to be acceptable once you came in the door uh my notion with that is if you believe in an omniscient all present all-knowing creator then uh your creator already knows the fullness of you why do you have to hide for other people uh right and of course people have to hide because there is fear because there's there's fear of harm there's fear of rejection all all sorts of things we wanted to create a space where people didn't have to fear that I first read about you in Samra's Habib we memoir we have always been here and she talks about you know spending her life going to conventional mosques and how wonderful it was to find your mosque she talks about um the fact that there's no gender separation and so forth can you tell us a little more about how your mosque differs from conventional mosques so I use the expression dominant culture uh I don't use uh traditional because I think tradition is dynamic and changing and what we may perceive as tradition today won't be tradition a hundred years from now and was not tradition a hundred years ago um I never said conventional yes you did say conventional yes you did but I just sort of I want to make the point that I don't because sometimes people say oh traditional mosques I'm like I don't think it's traditional so I use the word dominant culture right so conventional is also good it it it doesn't give them any authority or any greatness or any historical validity other than their dominance right I like that so how do we differ well we pray we pray meccan style and when you go to Mecca and when you used to go to Medina there was no gender segregation all genders prayed in the within the area of the mosques prayed together okay the current administration in in the Hijaz in what is now politically called Saudi Arabia the political and religious interpretation influences there have now turned Medina into gendered space so the mosque in Medina which was not gendered is is now gendered uh there is a push to gender mecca as well and and separate people along binary genders uh uh during during prayer and and during certain rituals and so on and so forth this is not the tradition the tradition of the prophet peace be upon him of the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him is that people prayed side by side irrespective of gender there is a common assumption around gender segregation and in fact the reality is that today Muslim spaces are identified by gender segregation in particular types of dress so a lot some people will come to our mosque and say well this is not a mosque because we don't impose a dress code and we don't impose any form of segregation gender or otherwise but we identify our mode of prayer as meccan style because we believe that that is the original the original Muslim space that the that Mohammed peace be upon him created and so we refer to our mode of prayer as meccan style we don't impose a a dress code because um you know in Islam god's greatest gift to humanity is intellect and um some folks will say oh you know you keep the Quran and the highest level in your house if they wrap it in velvet and they stick it on the highest shelf but they never read it but the highest level in the house is your is your intellect you know it's not like a sign that i saw a trumpets the other day this was back in January saying um faith over logic that has never been um an Islamic narrative right uh at least not in the Islam that i was taught um where i was taught that your intellect is your is your is your highest um is god's greatest gift and and and our highest capacity so um we have tried to create a space where people can exercise their own uh agency in understanding what is modesty the Quran uh speaks about modesty for believers um some folks will argue that it specifies a particular mode of dress um but i in my understanding and that of many many scholars uh it is not specific in terms of what modesty means and you know my belief is that if you believe that your tradition or any tradition it's not just Islam if it is for all peoples at all times and the and Allah in the Quran says i've created this religion for you for all peoples for all times then it needs to be organic and dynamic and responsive to to to the human condition uh and so the notion of an absolute sense of modesty as opposed to a a relative sense of modesty um we allow people to have agency as to what they think is modest for them and uh the Quran says if you think that somebody is not modestly dressed lower your own gaze and so this is what we direct to folks so i think people would would would see those two as being the most visible or the most apparent differences with uh dominant culture or muslim mosque spaces um the other thing is that we we strive for um a notion of shared authority um so a lot of religious institutions so even though i act as the imam i actually don't give the sermons every friday i don't leave the prayer every time in fact um it's the way our mosque is set up is that every friday there's a different person giving the sermon and a different person leading the prayer and so we believe very much in an inclusive participatory model as opposed to uh spaces where there's one person who's always sitting at the front and always the one who's uh teaching or lecturing or educating um in real life when we uh would meet in real life uh and assuming that at some point we will again um we would we sit in a circle and the notion of the circle being that so in traditionally in islam a circle the halakah is a place of learning and we sit in a circle during our services uh because the circle circle is always rotating and there is no there's no front or back there's no uh higher or lower it's just simply this rotating circle so there's a sense of equality of egalitarianism and also we speak of my islam so people are asked to speak of their understanding and their experience and um their personal uh journey uh journeys so that's i think what you would find different al faroo believe it or not we're at the end of our time you'll have to come back and tell us more i think we need to add to your long list of descriptors scholar i've learned a lot and please come and join us again to tell us about your exciting work it's very i certainly will thank you so much i'd like to welcome in mcann mcann sorry already um to our show all things lgbtq welcome in how are you i am fine linda and it's great to be here i wish i were with you in vermont instead of sitting all the way down here in north carolina but don't you want to be here in the summer yeah oh absolutely i mean i want to be there all the time well i know you're coming up for a writing retreat in yes hero we said it north hero um yeah up in the hero island chain and i've been um vacationing in north hero now and when i say vacationing i mean i probably spend about 10 weeks a year up there uh for about 25 years and so this is kind of your spiritual home or your oh yeah totally it totally is you know i've lived in a lot of different places i was born in pennsylvania lived there until i was about 10 and then we lived in northern delaware we lived in olinoy and then we ended up in north carolina where i've been now for about 46 years and the first time i went to vermont it was actually kind of uh like randomly picking a place out of a hat you know that might be a fun place to try to vacation and it was in mid july height of the tourist season and um getting up there turned into a nightmare um the airline was i don't even you name it and it happened we were supposed to land in burlington vermont and instead we ended up in montreal at about one o'clock in the morning we had to rent a car in quebec and drive south to this tiny little vacation cottage we had rented sight unseen that i think was in north alberg and it was it was like one of the summers where there had been no rain no rain this place was supposed to be on the lake and the what little water there was was like about a mile out um and and the place ended up just being a nightmare it was like the bates motel you know i'm not even kidding so it was clear that we weren't going to be able to stay there so we contacted the the rental agent and next morning got in the car and just started driving south on route two trying to find a place that wasn't already all booked up and i had one of those commercial um tourist maps you know from a gas station and and on the back of it it just had all these ads for different little ends and stuff and there was an ad for this place called shore acres in north hero and because i worked professionally as a graphic designer then i was immediately attracted to the ad because it was so well designed so i thought let's find this place you know so we get to north hero and you know i don't know if you've ever been there but yeah when you probably when you see this place from from the from route two and it's just this absolutely they're on they're on like a nice wide part of the lake and and it's manicured grounds in this long driveway and you know and we drove in and i felt like this is going to sound really weird but um if you remember maybe from from sunday school or something the story of when um elizabeth who was the mother of john the baptist was pregnant and mary who was the mother of jesus who was also pregnant when the two of them were cousins and when they got together elizabeth talked about how the baby inside her just left with joy because it knew that it was he knew it knew that it was next to the divine right so that's how i fell when we turned into that place it was like something inside me just came to life and i found my home i found my spiritual home and that's never changed and every single year since then we have we have come to north hero and stayed and we stay for a month in the summer and then we usually come a couple other times of the year for a week or two you know now i know that was way more than you wanted i don't know that was really great i i feel a lot that way about vermont also vermont's just a holy place it just is beautiful um and you sort of feel so enclosed and and and yet free with the mountains and the water and you know all of it it's just so incredible let me let me just though before we get into any more discussion talk a little let me read your bios so that our audience knows who you are if they know please please leave out the arrest record okay okay you know no convictions no convictions okay we won't we won't even talk about that you know it's it'll be our secret and big man is the author of 10 novels and two short story collections she's a two-time lambda literary award recipient a three-time independent publisher medalist an eight-time winner of golden crown literary society awards and a laureate of the alice b foundation for her outstanding body award a career graphic designer ann is a four-time recipient of the t koreen award for outstanding cover design she lives in winston salem north carolina so that's correct very impressive so um i know a few of your books are set in vermont yes um i think a fictionary a fictional uh st august is that right that's right i had this uh i wanted to i've written two books two novels they're actually set in in vermont one is set in north hero um that book is called backcast and it's um it's actually really it was my way to kind of lampoon and make fun of lesbian writers and how specific our genres are you know the vampire genre the the you know the mystery the what did they you know all that and all that stuff so i i created this um i wanted to write a novel about 13 lesbian authors who get together for a writer's retreat yeah at a country in and vermont i can only imagine it's everything that could possibly go wrong goes wrong but while they are there a small group of them knowing nothing about the sport decide to enter a tournament bass fishing competition hence the name of the book backcast so one of the things that happens is um they they they get this old beat up pontoon and retrofitted and they managed to find a local fisherman who's willing to help them and guide them and tell them what all they need to do and um one of the main characters in the book and you have to go here is a 200 year old bass named phoebe who no one has ever caught so she becomes a very prominent character in this book so that's backcast and i i actually set the book at a fictionalized um shore acres so it's literally that place that's described in the book so that's one and then a couple of years ago um i got this idea that i wanted to write a book because i've worked my entire life in higher ed that's kind of what i know and it can be really absurd as i'm sure you can imagine that that whole kind of closed higher ed community so i thought it would be really fun to write a book set at a small college so i decided to create the small college and set it in st albin's vermont and the set that book is called bail wolf for cretins bail wolf for cretins and the reason it has that title is the main character is an english professor named grace warner who's up for tenure and she she describes something there's there's a there's a scene in the book where she's you know meets this woman on an airplane they're both traveling to an event in california and the woman says um what do you do and and grace says i teach four sections of bail wolf for cretins so that's how she describes so anyway so i had a blast with that and i made it i made it a small college that at one time had been affiliated with the roman catholic church but wasn't anymore and you know and and if you read the book everything in it you'll recognize like all of the restaurants and and places they go are all real so i had a blast and i actually wrote that book in vermont on my retreat on one of my little self-styled writing retreats i wrote that book in vermont and that book won a lammy won a lambda literary award so that was that was kind of my love letter to vermont well it's i'm sure it's you know it's absolutely i think you'd get a charge out of it on my list of books to read real soon oh good um or you can just call me up and i'll read it to you cheap as i said not cheap i might be cheap but i'm not free and so a lot of your you seem to write books in series like you have the jericho c series the eight what is it evan evan evan evan read yeah there are two of those yeah and uh dis and clarissa two oh yeah those stories those are fun those are all short stories about the same characters and june mcgee are yeah there's just one of those that's that book is fun okay this one so when did you start writing i know you did chalk as a little kid you did chalk writing you know i started writing um like writing writing many years ago um when i was working at a college in in uh greensboro i started writing um kind of little fun editorial pieces for the local newspaper like a couple of times they asked me to review books and then they started giving me little assignments to go and you know look at something and write a piece about it so i i always did that kind of writing you know but i never wrote fiction and um it was about 11 years ago i guess you know when the when when the internet suddenly made a wealth of fan fiction that you could read for free available online you know i in common with every other lesbian on the planet you know discovered that and spent a lot of time you know the old aol thing where you waited for the computer you know and you'd log into these you know you go to the academy of rds or the atheneum or some of these sites and start reading a lot of these stories for free because as you know there were next to no books available i mean there were some the old nyad books but but not very many you know and there certainly were not very many bookstores where you could get them so so i so i sort of got i read as much as i could find i didn't even realize i was a lesbian until i was 30 which is ironic because everybody else who knew me had figured it out i know i'm just like y'all could have saved me you know five years in therapy okay so but you know but once i got that news flash at age 30 i read everything i could get my hands on everything you know every book every magazine every anything i could find i read it i even got a part-time job working in a gay bookstore yeah you know silly me i thought this would be a great way to meet women as it turned out um i had about 42 gay boyfriends you know but but so i became really interested in in the literature that was available and also kind of sadly impressed by how bad a lot of it was you know i mean there was there was wonderful stuff but there was also a whole lot of it that was that was just really terrible so i kind of thought i i i think i could write one of these books yeah you know they're kind of formulaic it's not you know so i started writing one myself and that was my first book Jericho and it took me about a year maybe 18 months to write it and when i finished it i just threw it in a drawer and this friend of mine said you need to you need to do something with that book and i'm like you're crazy like nobody's going to want to read this she said well at the very least send it into one of the online sites that take you know put it up there for free carve it up into 10 parts and start posting it so i thought okay i'll try it but first i invented a fictitious name because i like i know this book is gonna suck and everybody's gonna hate it and i don't want anybody to know it's me so i threw it up there and i i created an email account you know under and McMahon which is not my real name but now i have to live with it um and put the book up there and then i waited a few days and then i was like with great trepidation like kind of you know i kind of went in and looked i had like 400 emails from people saying oh my god oh my god what are you gonna and i was like you gotta be kidding me and within a month i had offers to publish from three different you know so that's kind of how i got my humble start that's amazing man i mean well i don't think that would happen today i think honest to goodness i think 10 years ago the time was i got lucky the time was exactly right you know but you know just to have such validation so so quickly but just i know i was very lucky really so that jericho that you know that jericho book then um turned into what is arguably the series of what i would consider the most popular books i've written because i mean there are people who just love those books they're all set in a small town in the virginia mountains and all of the books are about the same kind of quirky bunch of people and in fact the book i just finished a few like a month ago is the fourth book in that series it's called covenant and it comes out in july so all these books are available at audible and we're going to have your website online oh thank you people want to order your books especially the two vermont books yes yes so it seems like we're we're pretty much out of time oh my gosh i'm so sorry i know no it's fabulous and um so um just let me ask you how long have you been publishing with buywater books um six years i think that's right i think it's six years the first book i did with buywater was backcast one of the two books set in roman well this has been lovely thank you i'm so sorry i i i have verbal diarrhea that's what we want you know my mother my mother always said she spent the first three years of my life trying to get me to talk in the next 30 trying to get me to shut up you know that's what we love though we want our authors on here talking about their work and you know being enthusiastic and thank you so much thank you so much it's been an honor okay give us a call when you get into Vermont i sure will now you're in montpelier is that right we're down in montpelier yeah and um hopefully we'll have COVID under control and um yeah we can meet for dinner or something that'd be awesome yeah okay take care of yourself and lovely to meet you bye bye if people who routinely watch all things may have noted and it started with that and charles all things is making a commitment to reach out to trailblazers from within our community to tell our stories and to share our legacy and for today i couldn't be more delighted that the person who is agreed to spend this time with us is somebody who was a personal role model for me when i started doing political advocacy in the mid 1980s please welcome from main dale McCorvick welcome dale hi hi keith it's great to be here over in vermont and i and you shared prior to our starting to tape that you had actually gone out and started taping your maple tree so it's very appropriate yes so i really wanted to invite you to be part of this process after stumbling across you to again add a new england wide conference because indeed in the the 80s you were a prominent figure in the main lgbtq political structure but actually prior to that you had already created a first when you were out in the mid west yeah in iowa of all places where you were the first woman in the country to be certified as a journey woman how did that happen well in the international brotherhood of carpenters and joiners there might have been other unions but i was the first in the carpenters union well how it happened was that there was a recession and i didn't have a job and it was the middle of the women's movement and no it was the middle of the beginning of the second wave and um our job you know was to push the envelope to push the definition of what women could be and so i had always known how to use tools and i was handy and so i went down and applied and i'll give you the short version because this is a great story but uh they accepted one apprentice and it was me that year and then they got in trouble with the international for accepting a woman in a heavy construction local so i for one i know of you i think you were probably more than adequate to meet the task this year yeah i was go on i was gonna say so how do you get from iowa to main um well i wasn't a matriarch of the iowa city lesbian feminist community we really had we had the infrastructure of a town we had a restaurant a bookstore a carpentry company mine two plumbing companies a press um the iowa city women's press and other things a medical free medical clinic two daycare center i mean we created all of that and um and and a culture as well i'll send it around the uh it all happened at the uu church now i now i'm a uu but i didn't even realize that i was hanging out at the uu i i sort of knew it but i didn't know what uu was anyway so um so uh it was ready for me to leave and this guy from main um uh who uh was a owner builder school owner in other words had an owner builder school that was a thing back then there were like 10 of them around the country and he said he had read my book against the grain a carpentry manual for women and he wrote me a letter and said how would you like to come out here and um teach a month long course house building for women and so i said well i would like that a lot so i basically commuted for one or two years about i think the first one was 78 or 79 and then i and then i moved and then they offered me a full time job so i said okay but i didn't leave iowa because i didn't like iowa iowa is a great place and iowa city is one of the greatest cities in the country so it was it was just time to go to grow it was insular there and you know i mean from what you were describing about the community that you helped to create in iowa i i would have been ready to just nestle in and stay there my first question though is your first trip to main was it in the summer or in the winter it was in the summer yeah that so once you got to main and you know you started teaching how did you one find an lgbtq plus community and what drove you to become involved again that was a very good question and the answer is i i i and others created it i mean where i was which was in brunswick main there wasn't anything like what iowa city had so it was it was a whole year culture shock but i remember cornerstones where i was teaching we had a big a big big room huge room where we had the classes and and they said we could have dances on saturday night so lesbian dances so of course this is uh you know the early 90s no the early 80s excuse me yeah and so we had to figure out a safe way to tell everybody about this so we put a little add in the paper in code and we said the local chapter of the sarah the lavender caucus of the sarah orn jewice society is going to be having a meeting at eight o'clock on saturday night at cornerstones and and this worked very well for a while until the real sarah or the president of the real sarah or jewice society down in portland called and said what is this lavender caucus we are the sarah or society who are you busted that was funny anyway so it sounds so you were given this opportunity in may it was an opportunity for personal growth for you and you just took that role of matriarch with you and recreated aspects of the community that you had helped to create in iowa absolutely thank you so how do you then decide to become involved in mainstream politics and as we were talking before we started taping you were the first out lesbian elected to a state legislate senate getting placed in the country i think all these firsts were were the times you know i was just plopped down i was in the right place at the right time or the right place at the wrong time i mean it's never you know our history has been bumpy especially back then and um so what happened first was it was it was uh it was a process because back in my in high school in sygony iowa they wrote in my yearbook that i would be the first lady vice president of the united states so i already had and my father had run for congress my stepfather and not made it but was very active in politics so um when when i got to iowa city and which was a real blossoming period um and when i when i got to um main um in 1980 i there was a forming of a little community and we put out we put on it i i bet there's people in vermont who might have seen this we wrote together the men's and the women's community wrote a version of west side story called gay side story and we put it on we practiced it for six months and put it on for one night so therefore no royalty police um copyright police came after us and um it was it was we we all think that because the men and the women gay men and lesbians worked together on this um that we we didn't have the kind of schisms that other towns had and and after that um i ran to be a delegate an outdelegate to the 1984 democratic convention in san francisco because back then that was a big deal i mean it was it was a once again an envelope we were pushing we should be we should have a seat at the table and that's what we used to say and we also formed um nationally and elected and appointed lb it wasn't it was lesbian and gay elected and appointed um officials uh organization um of which tammy baldwin was one of the founders as well and when i got to san francisco as the outdelegate there were like 10 of us or something now there's 400 but they were there was 10 of us and guess it was like it was like going to the mountaintop um for me it was we were followed by the gay press brandy schiltz wanted to interview me uh we we had the gay community the gay tv news following our little our little caucus and all the other delegates for main were going oh how is this sort of boring over here i'm like in the middle of everything we were in the middle of everything and um and they wanted to they wanted to know uh particularly it wasn't just me it was what happened in main which was charlie howard a young gay man had been thrown into a river and drowned in bangor and and it woke it not only woke them up because they thought main was as they probably thought about vermont very you know idyllic place to live and so did mayners think that and so based with that kind of impetus and also i think it for me it was amazing to go to the top of the hill and look over to see what they had out there in san francisco we started the main lesbian game political alliance and that grew into a quality main and that grew into and then you see what we have done with marriage equality we were the first state ever to to buy on the ballot to people passed it you know which is let's not even get into that well how anybody is voting on a minorities rights you know that's like isn't that anti-american but so so that's how that's how it sort of got started and then once we formed the main lesbian gay political alliance which of course the main thing was to get an anti-discrimination bill i mean back then it was and the issue of marriage actually lapped the the anti-discrimination bill in main it surged ahead for reasons that we can all understand because that's a good thing and anti-discrimination just happens when people have been bad things to you so anyway so i would go the president i was the first president of mlgpa and and sort of was the role of the first president to go and plus i lived in agusta to go up to agusta and lobby and once you do that once you go to agusta and lobby you meet all these people and you realize that hey i could do that um and so and so um after a little while in 1990 um i ran for the state senate because that i had a really really right wing you know the right christian right point man and the legislature in the senate i sort of skipped the house my senate seat and i ran for the senate and it was quite the campaign it was got more ink than the governor's um you know the lesbian upstart versus the stalwart right wing guy who was anti everything he named one good thing that vermont likes and he was against it and um so i won by 0.05 percent about it with landslide macormick i barely barely made it but i that's how that's how i got elected to the state senate and from that you moved on to become the state treasurer right and i think that was also a lesbian first i bet that's true yeah and and you're you've just continued to be a trail placer for us so in the couple of minutes we have left people coming up you opened the door what is it that we need to do to invite our communities to take that next step forward and what do they need for support to be able to do that i i'm just writing something down because there's two sides to that um and the first side the the side i'll get off is i now am inspired by the young people in our movement and for instance over here in in main equality main runs this i call it it's colloquially known as gay camp for kids from 13 or 14 to 18 or 17 and they each time they do this it gets bigger bigger bigger and i think they had 50 or 60 students before covid so not this summer but the one before and they had it at unity college and every time they do this they invite the veterans and and i'm always like to go so they always invite me in there's the usual suspects go over and i i just had the best time uh i had a little posse they love they love to have it they love they were the most excited about having the the veterans workshop than anything else it's not neat and uh so um and then a guy i met there andy who i just love is uh he's now on the board of the equality community center and i'm on the board too and we um he's 18 or he might even be 17 and um and he's he's great he's fantastic and and and so we're i think we're doing a good job of of pulling kids young people in um and what and in terms of if you're asking about politics with a big p you know running for office i think we just need to to have you know you and i we need to be mentors we we need to be available and um and i think i i hope he's not watching this but i i hope i think i'm being that for andy and and when i do it whenever i i can i i look for those opportunities but um i wanted to say another this might be get us all in trouble but this summer you know when there were we had the protests against against murdering black people and black lives matter protests for for a short word um and and they coined the slogan um defund the police i'm gonna be interested if you had the same uh reaction that i did um but it only took me one i totally understood what they meant but it only took me one day to say we cannot say that politically that is not a mess a winning message better to say you know social workers on the police are you know the issue that they were trying to get at and um um so that made me think you know somehow um those of us with long what now 50 60 years of political experience uh should be should should be integrated we we should have been and we should have been at the table there we weren't at that table um to to give that with that you know and with that i need to say thank you and and i am definitely reaching out so we can continue this conversation and maybe bring some of those other you know rabble browsers in with us dale thank you for being the trailblazer you were and the role model you were thank you thank you thank you for joining us we'll see you in two weeks but in the meantime resist