This is Think Tech Hawai'i. Community matters here. Okay, we're back. We're live. You know, we told you so, and it came true yet again. 4 p.m. on Wednesday, our flagship show, Energy Policy Forum. And it's all about Hawai'i, the state of clean energy. We talk about every aspect of that. Sharon Moriwaki, my co-host and co-chair of the Hawai'i Energy Policy Forum. Thank you for being here, Sharon, as always. Thank you for having the show. We have Joelle Simone Pietri. She's a big cheese with biofuel these days. We're going to talk more about that. She's also a commander in the United States Navy. Am I right about that? Reserve. Reserve. Okay, all right. To me, it's all the same. But don't give any orders around here, okay? We're all on egalitarian level. I wouldn't dream of it with you around here. And Carl Campania, who seems to be a nice guy, but we have very little data about that. Oh, honestly, Carl was a host here for a long time. And he's very familiar with this kind of show and with Think Tech.  Thanks for being here, Carl. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, so you guys want to talk about biofuel and the bioeconomy. Lots of things have been happening, so let's roll it out and try to familiarize our listening and viewing audience with what has been happening in biofuel. Joelle, you're first. What about this event that you had, only what? January 16th. What about that? What was that? A couple of weeks ago. So it was technically the third annual Bioeconomy Hawaii Forum. And we've got some graphics that we can show of what the different presenters. But it was an all-day thing. Sharon helped to co-sponsor it. We had several of the Energy Policy Forum staff actually help with a lot of the logistics, which was great. And Carl was one of my co-chairs. And then we had two other co-chairs. All right. Hint. This is the time we're going to show the slides. Watch this. Bingo. Slide. It's there. I know it's there. Sharon, do you give us a running description? Sure. The Bioeconomy Hawaii Forum was to bring together industry practitioners as well as federal, state, and local government representatives and nonprofits focused on the integration this year, integration between food, fuel, and waste reuse. That is basically the Bioeconomy. So one of our presenters was Hawaii Gas, and here's a picture of their newest project, which is actually to recapture biogas that's being generated at the wastewater treatment plant. This is not LNG. This is not fossil fuel. This is biogas. This is the bioversion of LNG. Wow. So things are evolving in Hawaii Gas. It's actually natural in the liquefied natural gas. Real natural gas. So this wastewater treatment plant in Honolulu has actually been flaring its biogas for over 20 years, and all Hawaii Gas is doing is going to be bottling it and actually selling it to their customers through their pipeline, which required a two-year docket with the Public Utilities Commission to get permission to do that. Did they have permission? They received permission last in December. Oh, that's a big deal. Yes. So I'm a gas customer. Yes. It's not just that I have gas, but I actually use gas. I'm sure you've got it coming and going. You consume it. Coming and going. Yes. And I like gas, by the way. I'm not going to get any more familiar with it than that. That means when I take the gas in, when they supply me with gas, it's going to include this biofuel gas, right? It will include some biogas in it, and you're actually going to have Rich Tagaramo from Hawaii Gas come and give a deep dive on this specific project on the 28th. So look for this show on the 28th of February. Okay, let's look at that now. And you'll get a deep dive from Rich Tagaramo. We're going to see more stuff. Yeah, pull up the next picture. So this, and if you go to the next one, this is the Oceanic Institute's brand spanking new feed mill in Hilo. This is part of the integrated bioeconomy. Where is that in Hilo? Where is it in Hilo? I think it's actually right next to the Pacific Biodiesel plant because part of the integration is that waste macadamia nuts, for example, or algae meal, go to Pacific Biodiesel to their crushing mill to get the oil extracted, and then the protein meal that's left over goes to the feed mill here and is formulated into actual feed. This is a processing plant. This is a processing plant. So what kind of biofuels can it process? This is not processing the biofuels. Remember, this is the integrated food and fuel system. So that plant is going to be processing the meal left over after the biofuels are extracted to actually make aquaculture and cattle feed. Okay, so it's a big machine and it comes out. There's an output there, and one of the outputs is bio, I could drink it, bio material. The crushing mill I'm not showing because Pacific Biodiesel has already shown that on a few other shows. This is the feed mill. This is to actually take the protein meal left over after the oil extraction. Okay. The protein meal that's left from academia. This is not creating biofuel. This is dealing with the meal that comes out of the processing of biofuel. What makes the biofuel lower in cost is being able to do higher value added products from the primary products. The primary product is the animal feed. Then the leftover, the waste, is what you make the biofuel out of. So you have to factor that in when you talk about the cost of creating a gallon of biofuel, right? You use the value added products to buy down the cost of biofuel. I have another fantastic graphic that actually shows some of that stretch. I feel it's coming now, watch this. Not just yet, but pull up the next one. It's coming, it's coming. Oh, there it is now. Okay, so that's the feed mill again. The next one after that. This is an example of the forestry plantation. There are several of these on the big island as well as Kauai. Eucalyptus stands like these are what some of our other presenters on the January 16th event talked about. So this is theoretically going to be going to the Hohonua Bioenergy Power Plant, which will be making electricity. So that's part of the bioeconomy, not necessarily specifically biofuels. Those beautiful trees will be cut down? Those are eucalyptus. They were planted for the purpose of being cut down. And if you go to the next image, I think the next one will be this is what another one of our presenters from Hueco Plants talked about. This is an overhead image of He'e'i'ia on Oahu back in 1928. This is actually what, you know, before sort of modernized, you know, residential and commercial and industrial, you know, changes to the watershed and the Ahupua'a on that side of the island. This is actually what He'e'i'ia looked like under Hawaiian cultivation practices. In 1928. In 1928. So they're a point, the point that they made of the things that really got everybody excited at the Bioeconomy Hawaii Forum is you harvest the eucalyptus trees and then replant with native and indigenous species that can also become part of the bioeconomy because they also produce food, feed, fiber, fuel and other value-added products for the modern economy as well. If I went and took a picture of that exact location right now today, what would it look like? I think you'd see a lot of mangrove. You wouldn't see a lot of water. You'd see a lot of very hard work for years done on the weekends trying to restore those fish ponds in He'e'i'ia. So, you know, questions. So we're talking about bioeconomy. By the way, is that your term? Bioeconomy? It is not. Carl? It's not my term. Okay, just checking. It's a good term. It's really catchy. So if I talk about the bioeconomy, what I'm doing is I'm growing something. It all assumes I'm growing something, right? Every product that goes into biofuels is something that has grown on the land. Now, bioeconomy is more than just biofuel. Bioeconomy is food, energy, feed, fiber, you know, value-added products. It starts with you growing something on the land. The whiskey being produced on the North Shore, which was presented by another one of our presenters. Whiskey? Yeah, whiskey on the North Shore. And you use whiskey in the car? That's a value-added product. It has too much water content, and it would be very, it would be, you might as well burn dollar bills. Okay, but going back to it, it always starts growing something on the land. Yes, you have something that is, involves biological growth. So you're really talking about agriculture? Yes, it's the integration of agriculture into the modern economy. Okay, let me ask you, Carl. What is the status of agriculture insofar as it is a source for the bioeconomy? What is the status of it now here in Hawaii, nay? That's a big question that I think you need the Department of Agriculture to answer. I know that, to my understanding from what I've heard, the Hawaii State Department of Agriculture is actually moving forward at a brisk pace headed towards this direction, wanting to increase the amount of local food produced, wanting to increase the amount of overall land usage, try to bring infrastructure to current fallow lands that don't have it. So they're very interested in, across the board, trying to bring the bioeconomy and advance it further. They see this as a priority. They see it as a priority, and it's also a priority that was given to them by current Governor David E. Gaye when he said he wants to double the amount of local food production. So they're on a path to do that. That case food means biofood, biofuel food. Locally produced foods.  That's another way of looking at it. That's very natural. Very naturally so. Okay, so the question is, the Department of Agriculture wants to see this. We all want to see this. How does the Department of Agriculture make that happen? What is in the tool case there? Once again, they would be the ones to really answer the question, but what I'm aware of is, in addition to doing studies, they get together with stakeholders and put projects together. They have teams of people within the department that work on the development of various aspects of projects in order to come up with the data from the various projects and sites that they've been working with in order to try to achieve these goals and present the results so that they can continue to achieve more goals. So the kinds of things... Yes, attending. So the Department of Agriculture has a couple of ways to play. One is the Department of Agriculture in Hawaii owns some land, some Class A and B agricultural land in some key areas. Do you know who the biggest landowner in the state is? Federal government. But that's beside the point. I think it's the state. You were asking about the... It has enormous tracts of land that can dedicate to this. And we're hoping to... Yeah, and it's splint public and private. So the Department of Agriculture also has a regulatory role. And so a lot of the staff at the Department of Agriculture has to focus on the regulatory role, which is dealing with invasive species and invasive species eradication. Those are negative. That's certifying. You can't do things. It's hard. We're not going to let you do this, that, and the other thing. What about the things that can do to incentivize this priority? That's one of the unfortunate things about Hawaii and the underfunding of the Department of Agriculture is that most of the staff has to be focused on their regulatory responsibilities. If they were properly funded. Maybe in my dreams, they'd probably, you know, someday... Well, that was the intent of Hawaii's Barrel Act. The intent of Hawaii's Barrel Act was to provide more funding. What would they do? If I gave them a million, billion. If they were awash in money, what would they do to incentivize the development of biofuel and bioeconomy in the state? What would they do? What action would they take? Giving land is a good thing. What else? Making land available, working with various stakeholders and investors to develop various aspects of the bioeconomy. Make deals. And also help... There is a gap in planning and road mapping and facilitation. Like, you know, the Department of Planning does for real estate development.  How does that incentivize? There's no... If you create the master plan, that doesn't currently exist certainly for bioeconomy or biofuels or anything in that regard. There are various aspects and various bills that are trying to help that a little bit, but there's no actual master plan as far as... Right now there is no bioeconomy master plan. There was a study that was written in 2010... Called the BioEnergy Master Plan? Called the BioEnergy Master Plan. Very little of that has been followed up on and we are far enough removed from it that a new one really needs to be done based on our current information. Is there any way of looking at that, dusting it off and saying, hey, some of this has been done or, you know, at least going back to that BioEnergy Master Plan because it was a kind of expensive plan to put together. Right. And is it under deep beds charge to know who and what can be done? It was deep beds responsibility. That's actually one of the things of the trade association that Carl will be talking about, but one of the things we've talked about the trade association raising is the BioEnergy Master Plan could use an update because it is 10 years old and it excluded... You don't throw it out. You don't throw it out. No, there's a lot... You go back to the 2010 and try to use it in some way. Yeah, probably. What it is is a very good compilation of information, a lot of which is still current. The master plan part actually never got written. So what it is is a bunch of appendices that gather very useful data needed to inform decisions for master planning, but deep bed stops short of an actual master plan which has things like priorities. You know, when you have to decide between what can be used on a certain kind of piece of land relative to the rest of the bioeconomy and the large economy around it, how do you choose? That's what a good master plan does. But an incentive plan will say come hither. Bring me your tired, huddled investors yearning to be free and make a business here. Build a farm, hire people. That's another aspect that needs to be done and that's another aspect that the trade organization is working on. That's not the Department of Agriculture, although we like their support as much as we can get it, but we're talking about trying to advance a legislative agenda and to help open it up. I thought you would get to that. Carl, as the Executive Director of the Hawaii Bioeconomy Trade Association, thank you for being here in that capacity, his hands are physically located right now on a list of bills that the trade association has submitted or caused to be submitted. No, no, no. That the trade organization is tracking. We have been involved in the creation of a couple of them, but mostly it's just bills tracking that in one way or another have biofuels or the bioeconomy incorporated into them. Okay, talk about them. There's currently 14 bills. I'm not going to go through each and every one of them, but there are currently 14 bills that we're tracking. Some of the important ones include Senate Bill 3077. You guys are taking positions on this, right? Yes, no or maybe. Yes. Filing testimony on it. With many of these, not all of these will we be submitting testimony on, but we have submitted testimony on several of them, including 3077. What that one is suggesting, a couple of things, very important things. Number one, that we increased the biofuel tax credit. The what it looks like. The biofuel facility production tax credit. What does it say to that now? It's currently at 3 million. The request is increased. Collective leap. Collective cap of 3 million. May I say that that's not... Statewide. That's not very high. That's not sunflower seeds. It's peanuts. Very much so. We're here on ThinkTech. So, we're asking that they be increased the number that they're increasing it through or requesting that it be increased to is 3.5 million. Okay. We'll take it. We need more. But that's one aspect. The next aspect, which is perhaps more important than that is eliminating the sunset. There's currently a five-year sunset. Once the project begins, there's five years, and then if you don't complete the project in the five years, it disappears. You want to talk about what will bring the investors? Eliminating that sunset, because it takes five years just to get through the permitting process at the moment. Yeah, that's terribly unfair. Exactly. So, we eliminate that, and now the investors will show up and say, okay, great. We don't have to worry about a sunset. We will invest in this and go through this process. The final aspect of that bill, which is equally important that plays into this, is the creation of a biofuels facilitator within the department, within DBET, the state energy office. Is energy going to stay in DBET? You know? That's a whole separate bill. There is a bill about what's going to happen with DBET. Yes. Because there are some people that we should not be in DBET. Well, I think it's going to stay in DBET. What they're talking about, what Representative Chris Lee is talking about doing is taking the state energy office and making it the clean energy office and reorganizing it, but still keeping it under DBET. So I think it's still going to stay there. Okay. Wherever it goes, you want to go there. Yes, and that's fine. You want to add a special official. We need a facilitator there that is focused on, exactly. And some of the conversations that Senator Lorena Noe, who is introducing this bill, has had conversations. She's the chair of the Energy Commission Senate. She is on the Senate side. She has had conversations with DBET, and they're in agreement with that plan. So maybe it's going somewhere. So hopefully we get this facilitator and this facilitator will work on the permitting aspects, the procurement aspects, as well as help facilitate projects. And that's what we're hoping to achieve. And that bill in itself will, well, can, if it passes, bring about more opportunities for the infrastructure and the investment necessary. There's a public official who is presumably going to advocate for that. Exactly. And you hope the right person will be selected. And I do hope the right person will be selected. And I trust that they will. Okay. Now, Joelle, you are the chief instigator, instigation officer, pardon me, of the Hawaii Biofuel Trade Association. And I would like to ask you how much of what Carl has said you agree with? A hundred percent. She was whispering. A hundred percent was the answer. You want to add anything? Well, there's a couple of things that I can show your watchers, you know, that we've been tracking as far as big-picture market items. So that is part of the context behind some of these policy recommendations that the Trade Association is making. But Carl actually runs the Trade Association. I'm a... I always knew you were an instigator. It's something we haven't come to. Is it really called instigator? What is it called? So, Carl, what does it look like this session? How are these bills doing right now? Are they set for committee hearings? Is it too early to ask that? No, no. All 14 of the bills that we're tracking, and there may be a couple of others and we're still investigating, but all 14 that we're tracking have been assigned to committees. Not all of them have received a hearing date yet. Many of them have. As I mentioned, we've already submitted testimony on a few of them. And we're looking forward to submitting testimony on others. So, of the ones that we have seen so far, they have all passed, some passed with amendments. We're hoping that some of our recommendations make it into the amendments. It's an act of... It's an act of process. And what it tells me is that there's more action. Am I right about this? There's more action about biofuels and the bioeconomy this year than there has been in the past. More people are interested. More people are involved in the industry. More people have aspirations about, you know, about being involved and seeing it flourish. I believe that's true. So why is that? Why now? Why now? I think... It's partly a long process. So I had a working group for nine years that was a public-private initiative called GIFPAC, mostly federal government and national level, but then also with a state of Hawaii component to it. One of the outcomes of that working group was the need for there to be a trade association so that the practitioners in the industry, the supply chains, could actually get together and make decisions together. You need things like inter-island shipping standards. You need to have some kind of, you know, common policy recommendations rather than a fight every year actually at the legislature. So we need some kind of forum for industry practitioners to get together and hash out things like, you know, do we want there to be a biofuel mandate for the state of Hawaii? So... There isn't now. And if we do... There isn't now, but there is a bill proposing one again this year. Okay. All right. And when we come back for this break, we're going to find out exactly what proposal is, what that proposal is. What kind of mandate you want. What kind of expectation do you have about the development of this part of the energy sector? We'll be right back after this short break. This is Think Tech Hawaii, Raising Public Awareness. Ted Rawson here, folks. You're a host on Where the Drone Leads, our weekly show at noon on Thursdays here on Think Tech. When we talk about drones, anything to do about drones, drones, remotely piloted aircraft, unmanned air christmas, whatever you want to call them, emerging into Hawaii's economy, educational framework and our public life. We talk about things associated with the use, the misuse, technology, engineering, legislation with local experts as well as people from across the country. Please join us noon on Thursdays and catch the latest on what's taking place in the world of drones that might affect you. Hike, we're back. This is Hawaii. You knew this. Hawaii, the state of clean energy. Sharon Moriwaki, co-chair of the Energy Policy Forum and co-host of this show. In fact, the progenitor of this show right here with us today, Carl Campania, the executive director of the relatively new, am I right about this? Yes. Bioeconomy Hawaii Trade Association that's Hibeto. H-B-E-D-O. H-B-E-D-O. Take out a television. We have small children. You prefer Minion style. And Joelle is the chief instigation officer, C-I-O. I like to refer to her as the subject matter expert. H-B-E-T-O, what not. And Joelle wanted to come back and deal with that question I posed. Exactly what kind of mandate do you want here? Exactly. So it helps to actually sort of talk about Hawaii's energy economy as it exists right now. So one of the pictures that you could bring up is one that actually shows a pie chart of the energy usage in the state of Hawaii. It's titled, there we go, Hawaii's Petroleum Use By Mode. I'll have to walk you through it. So basically what it is here is grouping together the transportation sectors are all in orange. Air transportation is actually the biggest, followed by ground transportation and then followed by marine transportation. And then the green slice is the amount of petroleum that's used in this particular year 2012 for electricity. How this pie chart is different from some of the others that you might have already had on this show is, it did a couple of things. One is, they actually included imported refined fuel into this pie chart. It's not just what's brought in as crude oil and then refined here and then consumed. There is over a third of the jet fuel consumed in the state of Hawaii is actually imported as that refined jet fuel and it's not tracked in some of the other data that D-Ved puts out. And then also the military use is usually reported as its own sector. And what I did is I worked with the Defense Logistics Agency to actually break out the military use into the air, marine and ground sectors. Did you tell them you were in the service? They know that, Jay. What's important about that pie chart is to recognize that 28% of the focus, 20% of the consumption is for electricity. We've spent the last decade focused on the Clean Energy Initiative, which I am 100% behind and have always been, but it's 28% of the overall consumption and the amount of focus, the amount of tax credits and everything that have gone towards that, which is excellent and should continue. Look at the fact that 3% of that pie chart is air transportation. Another 28% is ground transportation and then that 8% of marine transportation. When you look at that, you've got near 70% of each barrel that is imported goes towards a transportation. So we should be focusing and that's entirely what the trade organization, entirely what we're trying to advance is very interested in transportation and this is a key feature in transportation. But let's go back to the question. We should have more slides you want to talk about. The question is, what kind of mandate do you want? Part of the context is that what the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative has been doing has been focusing on shrinking that 28% for electricity. So I think if you go to the next picture, this is what happens to a barrel of oil when it comes into Hawaii. This graphic is courtesy of the University of Karachi. They just actually had the nicest pictures. But every barrel of oil has all of these elements in it. The top ends become liquefied natural gas and then NAFTA which becomes gasoline. Lower down a little bit more, it becomes gasoline then jet fuel, then diesel fuel, then you get to lubricating oil and what the electric utilities use is that bottom, the fuel oil and then what our road construction like for real estate development uses the very bottom which is the asphalt. Every barrel of oil that comes into the state goes through this distillation column and is fractionated into these various fractions. I want to get to the question of what kind of mandate do you want from the legislature? What you want is not a mandate that's going to destabilize that system. So the problem with the mandate right now for 100% renewable electricity by 2045 for example is that it shrinks the heavy fuel oil the electricity part of that distillation column and so the refineries here have a choice to make. They need to reduce all of the products that they make they either bring in less crude oil and reduce all the products that they make in order to sell less fuel oil which means that more air transportation which means that more refined fuel product is brought in from elsewhere. So unfortunately one of the ramifications of the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative because it's been focused on electricity only is that the state is actually importing more fossil fuel than it was before because that does not address the mandate. And exporting and the heavy fuel oil is still being consumed in the globe it's just being exported. It's an economics question. So if you go to the next picture we've actually got some data to show that. Next picture? It's coming. I feel it. So zoom out a little. So this is what the Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative has achieved. I'm sure you've talked about this on the show several times is that fossil fuel generation which is the big grey wedge is going down. So as that patrolling use has gone down Hawaii's imports of jet fuel for example have gone up and so which is the next picture? That's some data to show you. You've got another picture? Yep. Jet fuel is over a five year period which is the most recent period that D-Bed reports the Department of Business Economic Development and Tourism. Jet fuel demand. So basically the Hawaii's economy Jet fuel demand is going up overall demand is going up and imports are going up. They're both going up. So what are you going to do about this? Well what you can do about it is focusing on a more holistic set of mandates. I mean I wouldn't send a message to the legislature asking them to find something holistic. That wouldn't work. Well they can do something fairly simple like instead of having a state mandate a lot of them don't even know that Hawaii has opted into the federal renewable fuel mandate and the federal renewable fuel mandate is more holistic. It's not focused on just one sector like electricity or just one sector like ground transport. What is a holistic mandate in this context? Okay so how do you do that? I mean what I'm really getting at is how do you do that? How do you achieve a better result? How do you achieve the goals you have for the bioeconomy? What foot do you put out first? What foot do you ask? I mean you're not going to have a lot of changes federally here, you guys cannot do that even if you know the people and you still can't do that. But maybe you can have some influence in the legislature and the governor. Hopefully that will leverage you into a better position for this industry or for your trade association. But what is it that you're going to ask? Well the first thing is what Joel just said is very important that we already recognize that we have already tied into the federal mandate and what that means and make sure that we What does it mean to the military here? That's a federal agency, what does it mean? It's not about the federal agency, it's about the state tying into the federal mandate and then what that is going to mean from a holistic perspective. The state has already opted into it and the state's petroleum refiners and marketers have been complying with it for ten years. Most policy makers and even clean energy enthusiasts in the state of Hawaii don't know that because the focus has been on electricity which is on the mainland petroleum is not used for electricity generation. It's really only Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico the places where you're not connected to the lower 48 states that you have petroleum used for electricity generation. But the short answer to your question is what could be asked for is there's a lot the state could do to help reduce the cost of actually producing renewable fuels that address this entire pie chart. Exactly, so what I did last year what I was able to get done last year I wrote a resolution last year that was called the Hawaii Green Fuels Initiative and that resolution was introduced by Senator Lorena Noe it passed through and was passed by the legislature Unamended. It was calling for essentially the fuels total holistic but fuels perspective or direction similar to the Clean Energy Initiative which was focused on electricity so let's take the electricity the Clean Energy Initiative and let's make it a fuels initiative so that we're addressing air, marine and ground transportation and every other aspect as well as electricity so that passed unanimously so great, so that was the first step the next step is now taking that from the resolution and starting to have bills that support that. For example for example, Senate Bill 3077 which does what? Which is what I already mentioned. It increases the overall tax credit it eliminates the sunset and creates the facility. Alright so it's a thousand ways to nip and tuck this thing into change the way the industry works. I agree if I could make one bill that did the exact same thing that the Clean Energy Initiative did but that's a huge undertaking so instead of doing one huge undertaking let's nip and tuck and get our way there. It's complex. Energy has become isn't that right Sharon? From the time we started following it's become huge and complex. This is only one area of such a complex landscape honestly with all kinds of variables and permutations to commentate. So the question I put to you and this is the last question and I'm asking you both and I'm asking you to agree with each other I think you probably do is going forward you know we have to you have to educate the public and the legislature on your slice of the pie and your bioeconomy. You have to make them exquisitely familiar exquisitely aware of the need to focus on this and be holistic about it and on change the numbers change the consumption change the importation of fuels that could be replaced by biofuel. So we're going to take a moment and we're going to make them more aware. Who wants to go first? There's camera one. That's the public the legislature is included Joel plus the governor they're all there listening waiting. What do you have to say? Thank you Jay. I think there's a couple of first you can start first we can start by settling some myths. First there isn't a competition between food and fuel it's a common myth it's kind of an imported notion from the mainland anyway. What part of the reason why we had the event on January 16th which included half a day of legislative briefings and then half a day of workshops was to illustrate all the ways that you have integrated food and fuel and energy and value added products. You can't do one without the other. There's no such thing as a pure play biofuels project. It's always part of a greater whole but and so that's the value of an integrated system. It's also the complexity of an integrated system they're harder to do and Hawaii's not necessarily the easiest place to do business and now we're trying to do something hard in a place that's hard to do. So it actually what does work well is when you have locally relevant locally informed stakeholder developed ground up projects and so that's part of the reason why we were showcasing the kinds of project I talked about earlier.  Do you want him to remember or her to remember and walk down the block thinking about? That a bio economy a fully advanced and developed bio economy in Hawaii will bring jobs will bring education opportunities will create more opportunities to keep our children here in long-term sustainable jobs Sharon it's time for you to wrap up and say goodbye. Well I really would like to thank Joelle and Carl for just starting conversation again it started as you say in 2010 with the bioenergy master plan that isn't the master plan so I look forward to seeing what happens in the legislature to have you come back to see what's next steps but I think it's really important to have a facilitator and have a champion things don't get done so fight on. Thank you Joelle. Thank you Carl it would be great to have you here hope you come back and tell us more as the legislative session unfolds. Great thank you for having us on the show Jay.


This journey into the relationship economy started with the word consumer with realizing that the word consumer meant to destroy often wastefully as in consumed by fire and that when we were being treated as consumers we were being treated certainly as less than whole humans I call that as gullets with wallets and eyeballs but rather just as things to sell to that as humans who should buy more stuff there's plenty of good words customer and client are lovely words time honored they mean the exchange of value for goods or services member citizen participant person individual household patient audience some people don't like user because they think it means drug user or being used I like it because it means usefulness when you're putting things to use you're a user but I respect people who don't like it my favorite these days actually is ally I think being an ally means you're pulling on the rope in the same direction that's really really important but there's more than this we're not just customers now we have superpowers between the connectivity and the tools the cost of doing things things that companies used to only be able to do we can now do for each other with each other so we can recommend coach mentor be watchdogs writers amateurs and amateurs means a whole bunch of different things amateur historians amateur archaeologist amateur scientists all different sorts of things we can test share repair direct we are all over the place it's really quite impressive which leads us to one more step which is what if these people formerly known as consumers don't actually need companies what if they can teach each other using unschooling what if they can share software they've written using open source which companies participate in as well in a big way these days what if they can open science what if they can change their towns what if they can share goods rather than buying goods all the time what if they can fund one another's efforts using crowdfunding this really is an open question right now because all the things that I'm listing here exist today these are not wish list items these exist today so if companies want to engage these consumers these formerly known as consumer people they're going to need to engage in a language shift the old language that surrounds consumer is the language of profit maximization of maximizing shareholder value you launch campaigns against target demographics it's the language of war it's the language of ownership market share sustainable competitive advantage control broadcast that that's the world we've been coming from that's the world that's been active for for almost a century that language is shifting slowly but it's shifting to words that had no room in the boardroom or executive meeting room before like meaning and purpose and thriving and emergence and commons and gifting that are now really important so companies are understanding that they need to act as peers in the arena and to be seen as trustworthy they need to act in a vulnerable way they need to think of membership not ownership transparency not proprietary stuff and this is a big deal so our language shift is metaphors of war and cattle herding and profit maximization to maybe metaphors of community and relationship gardening cultivation the language around these sorts of activities is the right language that puts your brain in the frame of treating people as whole humans as treating people with respect and that's the goal so partly i realized in the mid 90s that the word consumer was part of our problem a gigantic part of our current problem and that if we focus on that and change the language we can actually get somewhere much more productive and we can start tweeting each other as whole humans again with respect i'm jerry mikulski thank you for watching this rec cast there's a lot more at the links on this page thanks for watching and subscribe if you like this


Hi, oh, I just spilt my coffee everywhere instantly. That's a great start Welcome to another Nintendo switch game that I've been addicted to no not really cuz I only Recently actually got the game. You remember how hob a while back sponsored me and they gave me a limited edition Hob Nintendo switch to give away. Well, we're doing that again because this is another game They have made and we're giving away a limited edition Torchlight switch this time and if you want to learn how to win it you got to stick around to the end of The video I ain't gonna give it to you easy. You got to work for it.  I'm gonna disperse the codes randomly on the screen So you kind of have to pay attention and keep watching but lucky for you It's actually gonna be a fun video to pay attention and keep watching. We're gonna be playing this game I say we I'm gonna get to that in a second. It's a Diablo like game torchlight 2. It's really fun I've enlisted the help of a few familiar faces You might recognize to start with a really gross sweaty man who doesn't really ever shower RGT-85 a shower twice a day I probably shower more than you do and then my brother from another hi Wow, okay excited to be here. You know a funny story is my dad's adopted Just hilarious all right as far as we could tell his actual dad was American So, you know how everyone says we could be related. There's a possibility there Bob That I'm your dad And then finally we have I think for the first time introducing an actual voice of my editor Vincent van Vinnie the third the fourth excuse me. Oh, I am sorry. Yeah, yeah, Vincent Can you put space behind me? Mr. Woody? Yeah, I am lost You're still not here. Are you still? No? I have no idea where I am. Can we go get him? I can find him I feel like a little child lost in the rain I don't know how many times I should say this but it is very Diablo like this game I think that's the easiest way to really elaborate on it. It's a lot of fun Sean and I were playing it last night for a bit. So who's in here with me? Is this you Bob? That's me This is a great start It's so good right now. Why are you two an echo pass cuz you guys were yeah I went and got him and now we're in the main area so that you can do a mission and we can help you Okay, we'll be there in a minute. I Like how Sean's character is the only character that like decided to put an effort into his outfit today You can change your outfit. What familiar did you pick Vincent? I have no idea. I just clicked one of my I have one. It's this great thing.  Yeah, thank you, man Sean has the pre-order exclusive the upper pet. Whoa, which you can get at torch slide to comm slash beat them up. So that's W Works definitely does everybody to try it out. Oh, there's a code for it right here on the screen. Thanks for the paying attention A fellow youtuber just walked through my front door. It's Kimberly toon from the channel Kimberly toon. Oh my I'm such a fan The Kimberly toon D Kimberly toon. I'm lost and I'm stuck. How are you? I cannot go through this. It's stuck.  Jesus somebody is being a very strong warrior. I hear the grunts. Oh, that's probably me. That's just me breathing Yeah, yeah, that's just my heartbeat. Can you guys see the vibrating star? No, so I could help you do your missions and you could help me do mine is how that works, right? I mean you can't help me do mine, but What what's the quest that you're doing? I'll check off to this load screen All right, cuz I might I might just have the same mission. That would be very handy for you Not about the games you find it's the friends you make along the way. Oh my god, that's so I changed my mind I don't want space behind me anymore. I want a field. Okay. I'll take the space. Oh my gosh Is anyone else experiencing terrible frame rates? No, no my frame rate has always been great in this game me too I was just checking and making sure Runs at a solid 60 frames. No, it actually is really smooth. It actually is what are you talking about like legit though? You know why it runs so well panic button. Oh, yeah, I missed that splash screen in the beginning They can't do anything wrong. They did um hob as well. Yeah, you said that earlier. No, I said Listen to my words of wisdom the developers that developed this game also did torchlight The people that ported it over was panic button. So the people who did torchlight did torchlight Unexpected the people that did hob did torchlight and the people that ported hob ported torchlight to separate entities Very insightful.  Oh, yeah, I guess you are like a level one But I resurrected. How do we resurrect? He resurrects himself. It costs money Okay, oh wait, is my wallet involved in this? I don't like it. Yeah, take your credit card out Me and wood are having a good time over here. Yeah, I'm just mindlessly killing these goblins. I don't want to trade with wood I don't want to oh my god That is one thing that was kind of getting annoying last night is the attack button is also the trade button Yeah, it makes no sense. Is there a different button attack? Can we like no I have the best familiar by the way.  Now the best one is the pre-order specific app Thank you. There's another there's another code for that on the screen right now. Yay. All right, everyone pile in I'm coming. Hello Very excited tone of voice Oh my god, I don't want to trade Who's trading with me? No, you want to trade The game's like no, you definitely want to trade with this guy I was gonna say I'm pretty lucky because my attack buttons are the spell buttons But whenever I'm trying to pick up an item or when you guys trigger it and I'm spanning my spell button I end up accepting the trade. I like when you try to like talk to somebody in the town and you shoot them in the face That's what I do That's the kind of thing that gets me up in the morning So here's my question vincent. Yeah with me and bob on green screen and you and shawn not on green screen How do you intend to? Position this video. Oh, I can make you and bob snuggle in the bath. Yes Yeah, and it's we will be in the same room. Oh my gosh. Who is trading with me? I'm trading always me. Give me your boobs. Bob the builder. I don't have your axis Those pop-up green screens cost too much, man If you just made a couple videos that did well, then you could afford to get one of the pop-up I'm out Dude, you get more views than I do. You know, I'm kidding. I don't get more views Overall you do because you upload like three times a day. You upload as much as you shower You record a video you need to wash off the dirt the sweat from the recording Oh my god, just don't stand drama Like it's not me. What's the quest supposed to look like? What's the end goal here? Trading as much as possible Just trade go through the path of the honor of the dead to the temple steps add to the wellspring temple and ensure that the Guardian of water is safe. Oh my gosh. That was not me. Good lord. Who wants to trade anyone feel like trading Everybody everybody I keep doing it. That's me Bob the trader can he trade the trader? Yes, we can Oh my gosh, low key. I used to love that show when I was younger. Did you have Naughty in your country Naughty. Yeah Not Naughty not that's a big Naughty from me my friend. I've never heard of it Not Naughty. It's like n l d d y. Oh naughty. Oh like the little elf guy Yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a European thing. Probably you're addicted to Naughty, huh? I'm addicted to Naughty Did you have a postman pat vinson? What postman pat and his back at my cat. Oh, wait. Uh, oh, yeah early in the morning Just when day is dawning Something something postman pat. Hey, who wants to trade?  Bob wants to who's behind with me Bob, is that you?  You want to trade dude? Yeah, you want to trade? Bro, you want to trade bro? Bro, bro. You want to trade right bro? Got any more of them sweet trades? Is this a boss raid battle?   Uh joy con switching time Trade trade trade Fast I'm back. I'm back. Do we need to trade? Uh, no, I think I'm good right now. Yeah Okay, okay. Just gonna spam some spells if you need to trade just speak with Bob. Yes This is a really good time to trade. So who's general grell? Is it the big minotaur guy?  No, like I am constantly fire spell Electric spell fire spell Trade with Bob Okay, there we go. Yeah, you want to trade? Are you good? All right, I could use some mana spells. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. That's okay.  We'll hold the guy off. Yeah We got it. We'll fight the bad one, guys Take your time.  So I need some mana If you've got any mana Yeah, uh, I don't know how to trade anything, but we'll just yeah, it's a little difficult Oh, I died. Give me a second to come back to life. Yeah, I died as well. That's no problem You want to keep joining? Don't worry. This guy's almost dead. We got him. No, it's okay. Hope you get no xp for that Oh guys, we killed him. That's great. I need to drop a bunch of stuff I don't need so I actually pick up the better stuff here. I have yet to fill out my inventory I'm addicted to this game. So I filled up my inventory a long time ago. Oh, that's right. Okay Speaking I've addicted if you want to buy some beat em ups addicted to beat em ups merch Make sure to head over to pixelampire.com pick up your addicted to beat em up shirt today Wow, does anyone need a steel bore cannon or a hacker because I still still born cannon. Yeah, that's that's Sounds nice. Did you say still born cannon steel bore? Oh, that is a horrible thing to laugh about You said it man. Yeah I didn't though. I'm just reacting. Hey, my dad was adopted. Okay. Yeah, let's trade. What weapons do you use? Uh wands and things wands and things. I don't think I have any of it So I have the still born cannon with 82 damage or I have the hacker which is like a mace thing with 80 damage Oh, I have a wand. I found a wand. I don't know if it's gonna help you at all Well, I don't think so, but you know what you have is but you know what I just hit confirm trade and then it says zero. It says there's nothing there now Are you trying to f me right now? No? It literally says nothing like you're offering nothing confirm trade and see what happens. Did you get stuff? Oh, I'm gonna be so mad. I don't have them anymore So if you don't have them, they're lost to space and time. I don't see them. I promise you are you trying to Swore Oh wait, I found it. I found it. I found the stuff. Oh, so you were just you were just dumb.   Okay, but now I have one that makes it look like I'm in skyrim Oh, yeah, yeah, see that it's not bad not bad. I am I and man, I don't know the skyrim name dragonborn dragonborn. I forgot to buy mana potions I have plenty, but I'm not gonna give you any I kind of need them though. That's my whole like thing. That's my whole shtick Use a waypoint and go back every time I don't know if I have one and then I'll have to try and find you guys again If I drop a waypoint, will it drop a fan? Try it. Oh, I got an extra one just now. Look at that. See it's meant to be That's cool teamwork makes the dream work. Who's using this big cannon? That is me and my big cannon And you're welcome. You're welcome for that big cannon. Can you blow that out?  Yeah Oh, I can buy big mana potions big cannons big mana potions. What's next? How do I set them to my inventory? Everybody go, huh? I'm gonna give away a code for the game right now. Here it is on the screen. Thanks for watching this far What's our quest? Okay, there's a question mark above us so we can go there and then there's a star right here on these steps So let's go here. I have a star here too. All right. That's great We can both do this and uh, we can leave kind of we can leave vincen wherever he went Yeah, I mean the frosted hills frosting this game is so relevant It really never heard of torchlight too. How do you find these game relevance from zero to ten? Well, I mean it does a good job. I'm talking about the socioeconomic standards and political climate.  I'm aware that I have bad Uh armor and stuff by the way comment section. There's always that pro on the comment section that knows a lot about the game There's always that one guy that has played the game to death. Oh my god. This video was so cringe We didn't know the entire time that all he had to do was press this button and then this thing happens Why don't you trade with barb more? If you guys want to win an iphone 10 sx 14 all you have to do is subscribe on this video and somehow you might win even though I never actually explained that part I'll also never announce the winner or ever talk about it again until I next time say i'm giving away an iphone 10 sx 17 Oh, is it 17? Can I enter? Have you guys played this in portable yet? Yeah, it's pretty addicting. All right, stop It is the best kind of game to have portable though. I mean, that's why they put diablo on switch. I mean not wrong Why do you say it diablo? How do you say it? I don't know if you notice this, but he says a lot of you know You're wanting to talk mario Yeah, you and your mario. That's because i'm english. Wasn't there a time where you Justified saying mario because you said I say it mario. Yes, and I don't say it mario You kind of do oh, I do not You The only reason I pronounce diablo wrong is because who cares about that game when you have torchlight true Yeah, I'm not gonna invest enough time into learning the name of a game. That's inferior to torchlight too All right, if you guys want to check out this game, here's one final code for the giveaway Uh, you can just download that whoever gets to it first Also, I'm gonna leave a bunch of codes below to get a pre-order pet thing and I said you could win a switch So if you want to win the limited edition switch, here's how you do that There's a link in the description It's a good thing you stuck around to figure that one out and I want to thank everyone that hung out today I'm gonna start with bobby boy. If you don't want a code from woods video. You can go to mine And comment.  In fact, I gave him a code for this game about 10 minutes ago Uh, thank you vincent for hanging out and then editing this video. Yeah, it's gonna be a nightmare But let's go. Hey, you only have four cameras to work with and a bunch of trades That's it's not it's all good the hair flip on that subscribe button or whatever it is that I say if you forget how I say it It's on a t-shirt that you can buy on beat em much dot com something down below. All right. Bye


Cheryl wait no the one where the girl went to the hospital after Salvia because she panicked. Oh that one That was a guy that went to the hospital after he panicked His girlfriend went with him He was panicking. There was another hospital store story the salvia one. That was hilarious. That was hilarious That one I can tell you that was so funny That one was my first time trying to salvia the one arm. I didn't cross into the realm, right? I read a lot about it. I was very cautious. I only like natural stuff and stuff like this So I talked to a friend of mine that is very reversed in in psychedelics, right? and I got together at their place him his partner girl and Another couple boy and a girl that wanted to try salvia, right? So I smoked like five bowls of salvia with extract as well I didn't cross my friend smoked with the second third bolt crossing to realm and this guys have done a lot of shit, right? Pretty pretty messed up because of it But he did a lot of shit before and he was he sat there. He went this is the highest has ever been The other guy I didn't know him too well. I just knew them because of these guys and You know He was pretty straight and narrow, right and he had smoked. He didn't say anything. He didn't say anything He smoked and we're talking. I was like, wow, this is I got someone to touch Touch touch my hand and just to see what I felt like and stuff was like, but I asked them I go How does it feel for you? He didn't say much. He didn't say anything, right? So I assume he didn't feel anything My friend. Oh, this is the highest I've ever been. I'm like, how the hell can this be high as you've ever been? He's done like 23 hits of acid in one shot.  He was sat there. He's like, this is the highest I've ever been Right? I was like, well, this is interesting. I need to explore this more, right? We spent the day there talking about what happened. What's going on? We chit chat and stuff I thought I Thought nothing happened to the other guy Because I didn't really talk with the other guy It was like two three four years. I don't know long time later This is what I found out I found out the guy They laughed My friend's apartment, right? I hope the Sun's okay with you guys. It's not too much They laughed, right? Like this They left, right? I found out they left. They went home and the guy Turned to her to his partner.  I don't know what's going on. I need to go to the hospital I need to go to hospital now. She's like, what? What's going on? So I found later. I found out later that the guy went home with his partner and before they even got inside the house they had to Drive she drove him to the hospital. He went to the Where you get admitted talking to a nurse He went to the nurse where they do your triage, I guess right Where they ask you questions. What's wrong with you? And he sat there and went I just smoked something. I don't know what I smoked. I have no idea what's going on I don't know who I am. I don't know what the world is.  I can't pull out of this. I need help They're like what what his girlfriend is So they admitted him and let him chill out for a bit and then he came out of it relaxed and Mucking that was it That was funny. That was funny. I Found out funny. I mean seriously if he was having such a hard time with it. He should have talked to us about it Right. He decided to act cool about it and keep it all in and it exploded on him Right. Silly him. Silly him Right. But it is what it is. It is what it is


عندما نمتلك السؤال والمدريتر والمدريتر وكنت أخبرت أني أحب أن أمدريت أو إشارة أولاً حقاً أنني أخبرت أنه مجموعة جيدة في نبيل فاهمي هو أبرومنان تبلومات ومجموعة أكاديمية لذا ما أفعل here أجد أن أفعل my homework just in case عندما أفعل my homework and researching the net about nabil أأتي لأجد شيئاً أخبرت him to give me latitude أأتي لأجد إسمعيل فاهمي أخبرت أخبره إسمعيل فاهمي who was a minister for funeral affairs in Egypt from 73 to 77 ويأتي لأجد شيئاً عندما أفعل that أخبرت إسمعيل فاهمي أخبرت إسمعيل فاهمي أعتقد أنه سيكون مجموعة جيدة سيواجد رسالتنا with the Arab countries and destroy our leadership of the Arab world وعن أنت بشكل جيد لديها رسالات تحتها أخبرت بشكل جيد ويأتي لأجل أو أجل مع حالة فاهمي هذا ليس سؤال تصدر إسمعيل فاهمي لأن عندما أفعل لأجبني الممارسة ، فهي ربما only for a minister who resigned in Egypt, modern history, own principle. After that, he joined the Luft-Barty as a member of parliament for Egypt in 1984. That takes us to Nabil and you can see a lot of the DNA have passed along. He is a very prominent diplomat who served as Egypt ambassador in Japan, then served for two subsequent terms as our ambassador in United States. He had a bachelor degree of science and wait for it. It was in physics and mathematics, two of the most difficult subjects really to study or at least to me that's why I became a doctor. Then he accepted to be a foreign minister in Biblawi government and he was saying to me he insisted that his first foreign visit was to Sudan. So it just shows us how the man think and how he want to bullurize the foreign policy of Egypt during this difficult time. He got his honorary PhD from the Ministry Institute at Middlebury in 2009. Nabil also is the founder and the dean of the School of Global Affairs and Public Policy at the American University. Nabil will take us through a beautiful journey, a century of politics. He will talk about the 1919, its strengths, its short form and how really it led to subsequent three revolutions to follow in one century. Without any further ado, I would like to introduce His Excellency Nabil Fahmi and after that we'll have a question and answer session. Thank you very much Dr. Khanna that was very nice of you. I'd like to thank the three hosts of this event. I think it's a wonderful opportunity for me to be back in London Brexit or not but it's also an opportunity to come here on a very important and momentous occasion which is the centennial of the 1919 revolution in Egypt with everything that it holds for us and it's a very important place in history. Before getting into my speech however I want to issue a personal expression of gratitude to James Watt. James is an old friend of longstanding when you get on in age you use that term rather than old but also a very acknowledged and talented diplomat and I've had many many occasions to engage with him in the past and we've been able to move things forward and manage things where we disagreed in a very civilized and constructive fashion so thank you James for suggesting that I come here. Ladies and gentlemen I'm both a practitioner I'm actually more a practitioner than an academic or a politician although I've I argue that I've actually been a practitioner in all three of them different periods of time because of that I'm very careful about looking at history and how I use how I assess and then how I use my conclusions of historical events. I will admit that on many occasions I've used what I found useful to serve policies or arguments that I was putting forward but when I put my leg into the other side of the story the more academic part of the story and I become a bit more careful in drawing conclusions so I come to you today a bit hesitant I don't like to assess things so far back it's not only because I may not know all the facts I fear a serious historian you can do rigorous work and get as many facts as you want but it's because assessing isn't only about facts it's not about hard assets it's about a lot of intangibles what's the context of these decisions what how are the decisions taken what was expected at the time and therefore I made it a point to use the world polity rather than the word politics in title of my speech because for me polity made the whole context of the body politic of what was happening and yes it's useful to to assess from afar because you can be objective but at the same time and I can tell you from my own personal experience occasionally one looks back and sees everything as flowery and wonderful because the situation you're passing through at a point of time is challenging and you can look back and hold those events the standards that you've said now that didn't exist then and then unfairly judge those events in an unfair fashion so I just wanted to make that point because I think any historical analysis and evaluation needs to be done with the respect of context and the context may be different so let's do these things a bit cautiously to focus my discussion today I'm going to refer to basically four events focus is going to be 1919 but let me throw four events at you 1919 revolution in Egypt which resulted in the independence from britain the establishment of constitution and a political system that did not exist prior to that 1952 revolution which shifted from a monarchy to a republic among other things the january 25 2011 where we hit we witnessed a contemporary evolutionary awakening although and it ended in uh Muhammad Muhammad khosni مبارك's end of term and then we moved on and in June and July 2013 to a situation where Muhammad morsi the elected president at the time was removed now I tend to use terms carefully and you'll understand why I describe each one of these a bit differently or at least the the last two since 1919 or actually 1919 the first of the four it was unique because it was basically initially a call for the rejection of foreign rule that's how it started these subsequent movements in Egypt the other three tended to be initially a domestic interest rather than of international interest although the international dimension also came in quite quickly there is however a common element in all four all four of these events were a call for freedom and I argue that 1919 was the the beginning of a century of a call for freedom in Egypt and in many ways with the achievements and disappointments these four events tend to be uh connected in in one way or the other again being torn between practice and academia uh one tends to define revolutions only as a success if they actually actually only as revolutions if they actually change political structures and or political practices uh the standard set in 1919 however which was not met in all the other cases was a very high standard at the same time I argue that the achievement of 1919 which cannot be little did not conclude successfully because it was not sustained and therefore the emergence of three other events were in were in effect a result of that if you look at from 1919 to 2011 the major structures in Egypt were a monarchy and four presidents 100 years 92 years from 2011 to 2019 eight years we've had four presidents so and actually if you drop the last four you even in those four years just have four presidents since 1919 Egyptian polity has gone through incremental progressions forward as well as numerous regressions backward as the body politic tries to find the center of gravity tries to find where exactly it's comfortable with and the irony of that or the reason for that is that we've tried to define political aspirations of the people according to the political system at the time what could the system cope with one in actual fact the political system should be defined by what the aspirations are and since we haven't been able to برج that gap we've had these continuous issues of progressions and regressions I think one of these things that are extremely important about 1919 also is its composition it initially started by the liberal elite but was immediately very very quickly supported by many many more people of different categories not only in the urban areas but also in the rural areas and it started as a struggle for independence but nevertheless was possibly because of that was able to evolve in a process where Muslims Christians people of no faith rich poor leftist rightist Islamists all found reason to accommodate themselves in spite of their different opinions on many many contentious issues there were problems there were disagreements but the ultimate result is that Egyptians were able to come together and that's why I actually and I and the title of this of this today event is very important 1919 did not only succeed in creating structures that by which Egypt would be governed it did not only succeed in establishing a constitution the process itself as I said brought the people together but I think most importantly 1919 helped establish the national identity of Egypt which governed who we felt we were for many many decades thereafter the content of the of the constitution then was basically a very inclusive constitution it involved everybody and everybody had the same rights as citizens within that national identity irrespective of whatever faith gender political inclination you had and I can go on and give you examples and details of different parties whether it's Hezbollah the national reform party the people's party the weft party they all had and I would add to them Islamist parties as well they all had different inclinations but they felt that the national identity of Egypt was one that they could work within and pursue whatever objectives they may have at a later point and this pull factor in spite of the fact that it was initially started by liberals who took the issue of independence as the primary catalyst and who took liberalism concepts from Europe much more than from the middle east as their core but they were able to use those elements because of the inclusive nature and gather Egyptians generally around them now it wasn't it wasn't only by the way something that was purely of Egyptian context it was about each Egyptian independence but at the time you saw other Arab countries in the middle east asking to be recognized in the process of what's happening in Egypt that happened from Syrian politicians it happened in the Sudanese revolution in Iraq and in the Palestinian they all referred to what's happening in Egypt and consequently wanted to pursue again the same independence posture so the implications of that revolution regionally way before there was the internet or social networks or frankly television the implications then were much wider than one tends to appreciate now another point to take into account in the Egyptian context like any healthy society we always like to disagree and there are different assessments of the 19 revolution in Egypt today but I find very few people actually find it to be something that was detrimental to Egypt I actually don't know any who do I know some who will argue that it was not as successful as one claims others who will argue that it was more successful than one could have expected given that we were colonized at the time but if you compare it to the other three events I mentioned this actually continues to have 100 years later a lot more support a lot more positive response a commentary on it than any one of the other three irrespective of what was right and what was not but my critique to 1919 is with all of its marvelous achievements if it had established a sustained and it established a pluralistic political system but had it achieved a pluralistic political culture it would have been much more sustainable than it was then then we actually seen now again I'm moving rather quickly here but historians will tell you of examples of problems including British involvement in trying to put a cap on this trend and specifically on trying to draw differences and arguments between the different Egyptian parties are interpretations of the constitution adopted at the time encouraging the king to play not a sovereign role but much more of an executive role and consequently and the constitution did at the time allow him to play a significant role so there were problems and there were difficulties by the 1940s you could read into the environment in Egypt at the time that people were starting to complain about we achieved freedom but we didn't achieve equanimity or at least aren't treated equally and again talk started to emerge about corruption especially the influence of the monarchy on the system and so on and so forth slowly that talk moved towards okay how do we act on these things in other words other revolutions and that's really the beginning of the process until we reached in 1952 as I said do not underestimate what happened in 1919 because of the fundamental structural change that occurred in Egypt including in institution making but more importantly what it did in terms of defining what Egypt what Egyptians thought they should be and the one of the strongest tests if you want Egyptians were trying to or were complaining that practice was not commensurate with the content of the constitution itself so they weren't actually comparing themselves with another country they were saying that this is not the the the practice that we expected to get with this constitution and that's what led up to the crisis ultimately with the with the king with king Ferouh in 1952 now the 1952 events about the Nasser and the free officers basically picked up the social agenda the issue of social justice as the core of their message it wasn't initially about a foreign power it was basically about disparities inside Egypt itself and both the issue and the personalities particularly in Nasser were very attractive issues to population as a whole it gained support very quickly but as it gained support very quickly both inside and outside Egypt the form of government moved from a more liberal pluralistic system to one that much more central focused on a strong hand of government and as the years went by the concept of liberalism slowly started to erode in our system and I would argue that 1952 was caused by the lack of sustainability in 1919 but in actual fact it didn't build on 1919 to move further towards the objectives of the constitution in the 1920s but rather the other way around and again the 1952 was initially domestically driven it did not come from the liberal elite it came from the military and it was basically focused on a social class it was the beginning of the slow erosion as I mentioned of the liberal system and if you want even a tighter context for pluralistic for a pluralistic political culture Arsadet who succeeded Nasser he everybody talks about his foreign policy positions but they ignore his domestic positions in actual fact he started or he once again opened the door for a multi-party system in Egypt first by what we call Manabar or if you want platforms or podiums and then ultimately parties but that being said and to be fair while he encouraged the number of parties that emerged he was not again personally purely committed fully committed to pluralistic politics which basically means people have the right to share power people have the right to hold you accountable besides expecting the efficient management of public goods and services so I would argue that while Arsadet's years in office were softer in terms of practice than Nasser's in terms of politics and while he did open the door for the emergence of the of political parties including the return of the weft party by the way he himself fell back into his own regression and less than a few weeks before he was assassinated he actually put all of his opposition in prison at the same time left right and center which is not the normal thing you would do مبارك came in after Arsadet and spent 30 years in office first step first number of years were actually marvellous first thing he did was release everybody in prison all the politicians from prison second thing he tried to do important thing I mean there were many many things was okay let's recenter Egypt in the middle of the Arab world so we can manage our regional context properly and gain the benefit of our context that being said and both Arsadet and مبارك by the way initially with Arsadet continued with مبارك allowed for the return of the Islamists the Muslim brotherhood into the political party system there is no question that the مبارك era was more open than eras before it since the beginning of the republic uh was it a western european democracy no but you could express your opinion on many many things until you sort of hit the wall and that was not necessarily frequent but it happened uh there were maybe the former parliamentarians in the room here can can correct my correct me but there were over 100 parties in Egypt I can't name seven frankly of them but there are over 100 parties or were over 100 parties that started with Arsadet and went through uh with مبارك and he did not use it wasn't rough with unopinion issues so I could argue that 30 years there was a lot more room to discuss and what I'm focusing here on is political discussions the economic discussions and the sort that went to much higher and wider level but I'm basically talking about the issue that we deal with when we talk about democracy basically political discussions so I would argue that مبارك actually left a lot more room for a much longer period of time but to be credible he had a much longer period of time as well so one would have argued that given that time he should have been more successful than Zadet or even Nasr in creating if he truly believed in this in creating a political culture in Egypt that respected a multi-polar political culture and that frankly did not happen I would argue that we had a multi-party system but one that was artificial and if I challenge anybody here who can name 20 of the parties that existed at the time and that's just one example and all of you here are interested in Egyptian parties through myself and that's the point I make I think that مبارك gave a lot more room for people to work but on establishing a political democracy there was quite a way to go 2011 I used to live 100 yards from Tahrir Square so I could not only see what was happening I could smell it I could hear it I was not an activist simply an Egyptian interested in what's happening and what happened in 2011 basically started with very limited ambitions it started on police day because it was a reflection of anger against the police and there were specific incidents that they referred to where they wanted better police practices and then they wanted amendments to the constitution to ensure that you had a more democratic system but this was a grassroots system grassroots emergence again I don't call it a revolution only because I'm an academic now but as somebody in this street I would call it revolution I think it was a revolutionary awakening by any standard and the only real point where you can determine whether it was a revolution or not is the long term effects of it but anyway more importantly this was grassroots no leaders no no precise goal to change structures the precise goal was to simply get better police practices and ensure some transfer of power in the future it quickly emerged into something much larger but it also had another problem if you assume that in 1919 these were the political elite and in 1952 this was Egyptians from the military who had political views but worked within a structured system well 2011 they were neither that nor that they didn't have a a fixed system through which they would channel their efforts efficiently nor frankly did they represent either experienced politicians or military so this was truly a grassroots step that started one that did not have a defined goal that was major but as the days went on the goal expanded and the numbers increased and I argue that the core of this group were centrist youth irrespective of who joined them later or who tried to take advantage of them that's not unique to 2011 but I still think that while I'm not ready to academically define them as a revolution I do I think one should not underestimate the context and the importance of the awakening that happened then and therefore I will use the term revolutionary awakening quite comfortably if you listen to if you visit Egypt today you'll sense what I'm talking about because everybody wants a better situation whether it's 2011 youth whether it is the old guard before 2011 whether it is the middle class or frankly whether it is those who are in power everybody feels that the system is not efficient enough they will have different degrees of criticism but in actual fact the idea that governments are supposed to provide in an efficient fair fashion public goods and services and that individuals have rights of citizenship are issues being debated in Egypt today although we haven't reached yet the level where we would like to reach my conclusions are actually quite simple all of these revolutions starting with 1919 all of these events starting 1919 are intermittent progressions or regressions they had 1919 hasn't finished yet nor have any of the others if we were to have a sustainable structure as well as a sustainable political culture of a pluralistic political culture then I would tell you that 1919 has succeeded but that you cannot argue that because we haven't reached that point yet that 1919 was not successful or that it did not have a historic context and I would argue that among the four events I mentioned I don't doubt at all that in terms of the word revolution I think 1919 is the one that most strongly corresponds to the definition of revolutions I would argue that 1952 would be the second in line in that respect irrespective of whether you agreed with 1919 or 1952 because it did change structures I would not underestimate or belittle the importance of 2011 but it has not it did not result in a structural change and therefore I add the word awakening after revolutionary rather than simply stop at revolutions and what happened in 2013 onwards well I won't debate when the Muslim Brotherhood or the Islamists got engaged on 2011 they were not initially behind it as I said it was about centrist youth like any smart political organization they jumped at the opportunity when they saw a vacuum a vacuum created most of all by the erosion of liberal of liberal politics four or five decades before that so what happened was you had youth on the ground and even the more senior liberal politicians in Egypt had not practiced pluralistic politics for generations so there was nobody really there to pick up on the aspirations of 2011 and the Brotherhood which were the most efficient immediately jumped in why did 2013 happen I've always believed in freedom of speech freedom of faith you name it you can think and express yourself any way you want within the constitution sure every country has to have its rules and procedures but in essence I'm sure some people back home don't like my views but they have to cope with the fact that I'm as Egyptians anybody else and that's the same context that I apply frankly with the Muslim Brotherhood if they were Brits I'd send them back to you by the way but they're not they're Egyptians they're Egyptians so but what's the problem the problem for me even for somebody who is a strong believer in differences of view the problem really is that for the Brotherhood Egypt is part of the Oma for me the Brotherhood is part of Egypt so it comes into an issue of identity is the Oma the identity or is it Egypt the identity as I said were they to accept a place in the system but accept the national identity of the country then they would have found much more resonance they wouldn't have acted the way they did by the way and they would have found much more resonance than they did once you start projecting the country that it's part of something larger than your national identity which was defined clearly in 1919 has historical background but in 1919 that's really where the problem was so 2013 2013 I don't really it did not change structures it changed direction it was a recreation of direction so and it did have wide ranging support but it didn't really result in a change of the system of government but strangely enough if you look at these four events leading up to each one of them if you could do what you guys like to do here which is analyze things objectively at arms length five or ten years before each one of them you would have concluded that this event is never never whether it was 1919 1952 2011 or 2013 my concluding remark I think 1919 will remain a historical landmark in Egyptian history that is not challenged or you cannot challenge credibly I think it has had a much larger impact on national identity in any other event in contemporary Egyptian history it was and everything after it all the polity after it was a call for freedom and which remains an aspiration we strive for in Egypt today thank you very much thank you very much for such a beautiful trip and I'm sure you raised quite a few issue which will raise considerable questions and I take the view that the 1919 while you accepted have basically established independent created a parliament and a beautiful constitution in 1923 but however it has failed to create pluralistic culture and multi-party systems which was practiced for a short period in Egypt till the 1952 the people may take the view that this strong hand of nasa regime have really killed any hope of a multi-political party system and they have gone deliberately to eradicate such a polarity within the Egyptian society however it is of you you raised that the 1911 was revolutionary awakening in sorry revolutionary awakening in academic sense and not a revolution maybe people will take some different view so as we have a 15 minute for questions I may I take may I use my brogative I was German to ask you a simple question there was two men during their period and this they were contemporary to each other and both they were liberal and both studied low but Mustafa Kamil really took the view of the rise of the caliphites and he believed in it particularly after the failure of the ottoman empire and Sadzah Loul took completely different view why one man succeeded and the other have not got a grip during that period in Egypt let me just first comment on your introduction what I said was 1919 in my mind succeeded in many many ways but its successes were not sustainable and that's which is specifically the sustained multi-party political culture that was not sustainable and that's what led to 1952 so you can one can blame 1952 with a lot of things but the culture didn't exist I mean 1952 actually occurred because the culture didn't exist not it didn't cancel the culture it was very very open in saying we moved in the opposite direction rather than moving forward in that direction the other point I think it's again I think it's important to rather than trying to judge one success of one leader or the other look at the context 1919 started with we want independence from the brits we want to attend the peace conference that brought Egyptians together and ultimately the polity the success or failure of one politician versus the other is a function of who can deal with the context as a whole I would argue that the ability and first of all the sense of politics is important the sense that there's one of my mentors many many years ago told me never make the best enemy of the good and he was a very ambitious person and he actually got noble price so it's not somebody who was not creative but my point really here is politicians in particular have to stand on principle but no when and how to compromise without violating principle it's not about getting 100% of your result but it's not also about for the sake of remaining in power you drop your principle and move on so I would argue context differs different constituencies respond and also the practices of each politician is an important issue here thank you very much now I open the question to the floor please make your question concise and don't make a statement please please can you introduce yourself my name is Abdullah Humuda I'm an Egyptian journalist editor of timesofegypt.com by any measure if any intellectual discourse valued on the basis of not only providing information but raising question I think you have succeeded on both counts I there are so many questions but I will go on one which is very simple and very significant 1919 will remain in the egyptian history as an iconic revolution and does not create much controversy like others was this related to the fact that it did not engage in socially change or economic restructuring and remained with a well-defined objective which was able to get all elements of the nation together that's a fascinating question in many respects I'd say yes but let me argue that it chose a nationwide goal that people shared which started with orobi years before the issue of independence nationalism that was the ideology behind it and it was it had leadership the political elite were the leaders the conceptualizers even when they differed and they differed on a lot of the the the the different steps in the dialogues the discussions with with the brits on the conditions for going to the peace conference and so on so they had the differences ultimately they kept moving with the specific objective of we want independence and we want them to create a national structure for governance thereafter as they started to deal with the other issues these social issues and economic issues or if I may because they didn't deal enough with them that's what where you saw some people building on the the debate about corruption what was not I mean he did not argue independence he basically argued social change in other words there had not been social change so yes 1919 succeeded because it had a clear message on which Egyptians could gather around but I think it wasn't sustainable because it had to deal with those other issues as well as you move forward I think NASA's goal of social change is a legitimate goal I don't necessarily share the execution of that and to achieve social change you're supposed to create social change at a higher wider level rather than reduce that particularly issue of again pluralistic politics so in many ways I'd say yes that's why it is considered to be it was considered to be so successful but I also think that's probably one of the reasons why it ultimately was faced with 1952 thank you Mr. Ambassador thank you so much thank you thank you Dr. Nabil for the well articulated presentation you're excellent in all the events that you have mentioned 19-19-19-52-20-11-2013 you haven't mentioned names at all is it intentionally or you don't believe in the role of leaders or you're going to mention again thank you for that question you correctly read was on my mind if I read to you my comments here you'd find all the names that being said I actually think the issues are larger than the names so I said the liberal political elite but I did not name them because there are the leaders that are known and there are many many others who played a role in the polity which is a bit different from the politics so I intentionally did not mention names from the beginning to the very yet but having been a practitioner mostly in diplomacy but and other things as well people do make a difference leaders do make a difference so I wasn't belittling any particular leader in any of this but I was just making the point that the issues are a bit larger than than the leaders and I did not want to make the mistake of not preserving the proper balance between different leaders but it's an excellent point thank you thank you I will start really take somebody from behind and then this lady please yeah thank you my name is john mckeago following on from the point about big names I think one of the difficulties in Egyptian politics after 1919 was the big personalities who were behind political parties and all that went with that even if they were liberals in their beliefs I mean I I understand that Saad Zarul towards the end of his life considered parliamentarians who opposed him almost to be traitors to Egypt he came to identify himself to an extent with the nation you can certainly see that in Gamal عبدل ناسر and then Anwar Saadat and Hosni Mubarak followed in Nasser's shoes possibly because a structure had been erected for them to do so perhaps you can see the same with cc today I just like your comments on that do you think that perhaps one of the reasons why a political قلتر of participation a liberal political culture didn't establish itself in Egypt as you said at the beginning of your talk do you think that was to some extent connected with the emergence of big dominating personalities which of course may have been inevitable given the stage of history thank you well it's it's sort of or the answer to that I can either address it by saying I agree with both sides of that argument or I can say that the reason for the problem though are both points you're making my my as the essence of my response or my belief at least is you will need leaders to إستانشوائد and implement big events and if you look at 1990 1952 irrespective of what one felt they had leaders therefore they were able to create change if you look at 2011 a very inspiring and if you are if you were in Egypt at the time very emotional societal event but in the absence of leaders it was not able among other reasons it was not able to transform itself into a structural a process of structural change now of course if you don't have pluralistic political culture then a big ego becomes a problem if you do then it's bound by okay you can push the limits and that's why I would argue that I think that one of the best achievements of 1919 I said the best one was the natural identity but the second best one which is actually a part of the identity was the constitution the constitution and it wasn't perfect it established rules of the game that allowed the process to evolve for a number of years before you got the frictions with the king and so on and so forth so whether you have big lead a big ego as big leaders or not if you have a solid constitution that helps contain everything so you have leadership which is positive dimension and you also have the rules of the game now there are there is a unique case where you actually don't have at least in written form a constitution right here okay thank you very much okay this lady but the culture is there and therefore the culture is there for the practices I respect thank you thank you this lady and I will allow for one more question from this young man and then we'll break down because I've been told to keep to time please my name my name is elaha مهتشام I'm a British Iranian academic working in London first thank you so much for covering such a span of time and enlightening us and it was very interesting for me to to see that as a former foreign minister of Egypt you haven't in your excellent talk talk about the role of foreign elements is it because you really don't think they had such a or or any major influence or are there any other considerations thank you so much thank you again I did I mean this is a very educated audience by the way I did make a passing reference that the of the British role and the effects regionally and internationally but you're right I intentionally did not focus on the foreign dimension personally for two reasons I'm Egyptian this is Egypt story it's our success our failures and I truly believe that foreign powers can help and they can be detrimental but if we do things properly that's what it's the governing context or secondly I you know excuse my my my candidness and I say this respectfully easy thing in the world is to to blame a foreigner okay we've done it doesn't solve anything so anybody who wants to blame can have it but I'm more focused on the Egyptian role and that's where I thank you very much I just allowed this young man and that will close the session well thank you very much my name is Sharif Haber-Hadeed I'm not actually I don't come from a political background I come from biological sciences background so I have a very simple question so you draw a comparison between the political حدث of 2011 and 1990 and since I'm from the generation that actually that witnessed and 2011 I have a very simple question do you think that's actually that maybe the political careers are due to the lack of education because for example when I was back in Egypt studying we didn't actually like in class we didn't get to know in depth what happened at 1919 and all the other political movements and we didn't even scrutinize all the political movements that happened back then so that's why when we actually when we started to do a political movements of our own maybe you can say we were quite like no obvious in a kind of way and very innocent as well so I would like to hear your comment on this thank you again my focus really throughout the talk was the implications of 1919 on everything else it wasn't a comparison per se of 1919 to 1952 and 11 and 13 but your point is valid if you look at 1919 and 2011 they both had a very important focus they wanted a different practices governed by the constitution what did 1919 do after the independence immediately was the constitution what were the 2011 movements pushing they were pushing better police practices and then they wanted revisions to the constitution to ensure that they had a role in the future but I would also اد you're confirming the point I'm making part of establishing a pluralistic political culture is an understanding of history understanding of how these systems work and then a period of congestion where you actually practice these because believe me from your age to my age I've made thousands mistakes and I only made them because I tried and if you don't get the chance to make them you're not going to be able to succeed so I may not have been elaborate enough but yes when I meant culture I meant including the lack of of education particularly in in politics thank you well thank you very much for a fantastic topic and thank you in a bill and thank you for being a fantastic audience who really holds to the heart and the spirit of the topics today given by نبيل and we're going for tea or something you take it from there now thank you