Good afternoon everyone. I'm Andrew Weiss from the Carnegie Endowment. It's a real privilege to have Mikhail Zeigar here today to talk about his new book, The Empire Must Die. Mikhail is one of Russia's most prominent journalists and for the past year or so, year and a half has been leading Project 1917, which I hope a lot of you have been tuning into day-in-day-out, which has been this great multimedia chronicle of the road to the revolution through the eyes of participants and other major cultural figures. And it's, I think, I could be wrong, someone has ripped you off because I saw RT now had a similar thing on its site in the last couple days. And is this trolling? Is this, I don't know what it was, but it was or it was flat, it was a compliment, but it was Yeah, they were trying to start something like that in February, then they stopped, then they, you shouldn't be nervous about RT mimicking. It's not good that they're using budget money to steal somebody's ideas, but you can't do anything about that. So by way of background, Mikhail came to his role as a historian or as a citizen historian. Through journalism and until 2015 was the editor-in-chief of TV Dosh, which is one of Russia's most important independent news sources. And it was, in its heyday under Mikhail, a really important convening point for discussions about political developments in Russia and played an important role in the events of 2011 to 2011-2012.  So he, in his first book, which I think will come to in the second part of the conversation, All the Kremlin's Man, which looks at sort of the inner circle around Putin, has been a really, I think, a unique voice in talking about contemporary Russia, how the state is constructed and what's real and what's not real. So why don't we talk about the book a little bit, and then we'll get to these other elephants in the room about sort of what's going on right now. And this conversation is on the record, and I encourage folks to jump in and pose questions as we come to the final portion of this this conversation. Can you talk a little bit about why, and I, by the way, books are on sale outside. I should have said this earlier, at a discount. So there's a steep discount if you want to buy either of Mikhail's two books, Emperor Must Die, or All the Kremlin's Man, and they'll be on sale in the hallway after the event. And I believe, I think, a 20% markdown. But coming back to the format that you chose, which was this online very personalized tale of the revolution, what made you want to tell the revolution through the eyes of participants as opposed to the broader historical lens that most people have brought, which looks at the collapse of Tsarism, the impact of the war, the impact of social movements in Russia? What made you do this approach? Because the book is clearly based on a lot of those first-person accounts. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for coming in. The question, actually, it all started with the book. And it all started with probably the previous book, because when I was living in Dost, D. Vrain, and when I, at the same time, published the previous book, All the Kremlin's Man, I felt that I want to escape the news, that I can no longer watch all those political events that I had to cover. I could not watch six hours long direct lines of President Putin, or all kind of that important events that any news website had to follow and even compete with other media in covering, because I considered most of those political agenda that we had to follow.  And even if I considered something to be not important, and I just, I could not avoid paying attention to that event, because all the competitors were covering about that, and all the audience wanted to click on news about Putin, or about a girl who asked Putin for news in the rally's dress, or something else. So I deliberately decided to immigrate 100 years ago to address some historical traumas of Russian society, and probably to address stereotypes that are formed by our history and by the perception of our history, because first, it seemed to me that our country doesn't have any history of the society. We don't have history of Russian people. We've got history of Russian state that is focused on the history of rulers. All the classical historians who wrote the great books about Russian history, most of the books were called History of Russian State, since Karamzin, Tilbresi Kunin, and most of them are focused on the rulers, and what's happening inside the hat of the emperor or secretary general or president, and it looks like as there is no other, there are no other people who can influence, who can change anything in the country, and I really think that that perception of Russian history forms in a way, a stereotype that still exists, that it's not up to people to change it. We don't, unlike many European countries or unlike America, there are no great personalities in our history, like Martin Luther King or place John of Arc, Martin Luther, Gutenberg, and that was part of my mission to create the different angle of Russian history, to try to start creating history of Russian society, and as I'm not a historian, I deliberately chose a very journalist way to explore Russian history, starting from 1917 and a couple of decades before that, to try to explain what was Russian society thinking at that time. That was probably the most important period of time for Russian civil society. It was booming, it was very developed, it was very important, it was very strong. Russia as a country was very culturally influential at that time. Russia probably was one of the most popular countries in the world, thanks to Russian literature, Russian theater, Russian ballet, art, it was real and domestically it was really important. Big business was trying to shape its own perception of the politics. So I started my attempt to learn how those people wanted to change the country, what they were thinking of the perspectives, what they were dreaming of, what they were afraid of. If I was writing about the current affairs, I would have interviewed all of them. There was no possibility to interview them directly. That's why I started with trying to read all the possible diaries, letters, memoirs, and I found them terrific. First, that country that existed 100 years ago or slightly more is completely different from the country we know now, but it's like a Roman Empire and today's Italy. It's very distant, but at the same time we have all those sources, they are written in the modern Russian language. They are very easy to understand for today's Russian audience. It struck me with the idea that I need to create a mechanism that would allow today's Russian audience to get quick access to all those perfect primary sources, to all those documents. So it could face not the traditional dramatic version of one man's show, Nicholas II, then Kerensky, then Lenin, but to face the Russian society how it looked like 100 years ago. So we've done a huge job to collect and digitize a lot of diaries, letters, memoirs from now more than 2000 main characters. We created some kind of as if, what if Facebook existed 100 years ago? So it looks like a documentary Facebook and every day it's possible to read what those people who were living 100 years ago were thinking of this day exactly. The project is going to be over like in three months in January of 2018 and it's going to remain an eternal virtual museum of 1917. So the project came out of the book that is not only about one year but much more about two decades but shares the same ambition to give another vision of Russian society that was active, that wanted to influence and was not apathetic and did not think that Russia's destiny is to be an empire and Russia's destiny is to be dictatorship. Can you talk a little bit about that in more detail because part of what, when I looked at the book, you seemed very clearly talked about as the influence of Black Sunday on an entire generation of members of the Russian intelligentsia and the cultural elite in a political class that basically saw that as the country has to change and then obviously the country after 1917 goes in a horribly different direction at the hands of a small group that basically isn't taken seriously as they come on the stage. I'm just sort of curious as you look at people's diaries both as they anticipated the idea that Russia had to change and then they saw it kind of go off track. Can you talk a little bit about what you feel either people didn't see coming or didn't understand about Russia and the opportunities that small groups have very determined people like the Bolsheviks could have on the ultimate direction of Russian history and global history as well? Okay, let me focus just on one little period what was happening after February revolution 1917. That's probably the least well-known period of Russian history, the most neglected period of Russian history, although it's really important. It's always called February revolution although according to the new style happened in March and actually it wasn't revolution it was just a miracle when Russian state ruined itself. There was no interference, there was no plot, there was no uprising almost just that was a catastrophe of the state apparatus that was so corrupted and bureaucratic and outdated so it could not exist and at the same time that was a huge wave of euphoria for civil society. The first provisional government was that was a very important step for the country because that was a real chance to fulfill a lot of ideas that have been discussed by the society throughout the decades. The first provisional government was influenced by ideas of Tolstoy actually they were the first prime minister of the first government of the first Russian republic Georgy Lvov. I like a comparison between Lvov and George Washington as he could have become Russian George Washington. He was a close friend of Tolstoy and he was influenced by Tolstoy a lot. They managed to become the most progressive government in the world. Under the first provisional government Russia was the first country in the world to abolish their penalty. Russia was the first country in Europe and the third in the world after Australia and New Zealand to give women voting rights. They were actually there was a national consensus that that revolution was was wanted by everyone and throughout the first months of those revolution the general mood was happiness. There was only one man who was obviously criticizing what has happened and who was obviously demanding for the regime change. He has come he came to Russia from Switzerland in April. His name was Vladimiro Rianov and he was also writing a name and or Nikolai Lenin and he actually was alone. He was he was not supported even by his own party because when he turned up asking for for a new revolution he was no one understood why because everyone was really happy with that new Russian democracy. Only Lenin and the only the only other support of of that idea was was his friend Alexander Kolantai the future first female minister in the world. But he became the center of that first marginalized group of people who were very unhappy with the war were not successful under the new regime. The economic situation still was was very bad. A lot of problems were not being solved for a long time. There was a war without any clear perspective of of a victory of the end and it was rather a long but very quick process of of different people especially marginalized especially poor people who who wanted who were absolutely sure that that the happiness is coming they did not become happy and they concentrated around Lenin. Nevertheless I'm absolutely sure that that period between February and October is is still very important that's also very important result of everything that was happening before February revolution and that's also very important part of Russian history and like history of Russian society because that was that was the shape of the new Russia wanted by by a lot of people and actually no one was prepared for for that extreme form that was chosen by Lenin. No one no one no one was afraid that Bolsheviks government would last long most of people were absolutely sure that okay Bolsheviks are for two weeks not longer because they they they are marginalized they they they don't have any any plans what to do with the country. Everyone was was pretty sure that that the same the same Russian democracy is going to it was going to endure. So let's talk about the reception it's been an unusual centenary year because this incredibly important event has not been front and center at least in Russia there's been fairly subdued discussion but I'm sort of curious about in your circle in the sort of Moscow universe that you live in when you started putting this material out what were the reactions from your friends and your colleagues I've heard anecdotally these stories but they're kind of interesting reactions I assume from people and can you share a little of what how people today in Moscow who you consider very well you know informed and sophisticated have sort of looked at this material like what were they saying to you in response as the project unfolded. We started preparing that project like any year before and by the beginning of 2017 Master of the Content was ready and while having negotiations with with different institutions like State or Kyve or or Tretik Gallery or State Library that used to be Linus Library or some other institutions I was really surprised with the fact that they they were not they didn't know what to do they thought that they should do something about the anniversary but they had no instructions from from the government so they asked us to help them to organize something exhibition lecture some some web platform so and we like private company actually we we happened to become responsible for a lot of events throughout the year and that was the first surprise for me that that I thought that that was going to be much noise about that okay and I'll come back to that later speaking about the reception actually it was just as I expected we were almost ignored by the mainstream media before just during the first two months of the existence of our project CNN reported two times we had an article about our project in in New York Times in The Guardian Economist Wall Street Journal the Times so a lot a lot of well-known English language media American British but almost nothing in Russia just the fact that that we we created the biggest ever database of all the diaries and all the texts about 1917 was not impressive for Russian media and I was prepared for that just that that's normal for the situation we live in I understand that probably that that's because of me that that's because my background as ex-editor in chief of dorscht means that I cannot be mentioned on most of the media at the same time we were really impressed by the reception of the audience we had up to million unique visitors on our website monthly we we then then we had our application and up to 100 000 uploads of the application and and speaking about the the total reach of the project in social media that's more than three million and that's that that means and if we're speaking about the audience on the website we've got much like people elder than 25 25 40 years old but on the social media they are much younger they're like 15 25 that that means that that millions of Russian teenagers started reading about Russian history started not not thinking that that is something boring not thinking that they are reading about history because they were just reading stories of interesting people of the celebrity they they consider some they consider them celebrities they we we've got tens of thousands followers for for accounts of Marina Svetayevna, Volodymyr Myakovsky and they consider probably they they consider them to be to be pop stars rap stars okay and we we saw that the the last part of our the special project made for the anniversary of the October revolution was was even more popular than anything that we've done before so it looks like that format of storytelling we've invented and and we we wanted to to look exciting for for young people it's working and finally we we seemed to in a way to reach our objective if I'm I don't know if I have to to continue with what's happening with the anniversary so let's come to that so the split you're describing of sort of exciting things happening young people being engaged they're being a very vibrant online social media universe and at the top almost either silence or very limited signaling about how you're supposed to think about this sort of a vacuum can you talk about why this anniversary which everyone has seen coming for several years now wasn't utilized by the regime more effectively and why they basically kind of wanted to treat it as if it didn't happen is it because there's too many uncomfortable parallels between stagnation and the kind of you know czarist atmosphere that surrounds mr. Putin or is it just that things have been mismanaged and they didn't really have their you know it wasn't sochi olympics it wasn't the world cup where you know at the nush you know like this is something that people really can get excited about can you just sort of the bureaucratics of like why this wasn't handled better I know that that was a decision and that decision was was made by president budding himself and and December or maybe November 2016 there was a meeting in kremlin and and when he said according to my sources that all the commemoration should be on the expert level so it's up to historians to discuss the anniversary not the general public actually it's it's rather logic because in today's russia history is very important history is used as a as a tool of propaganda every day history is is the part of the the new russian ideology and the new russian ideology is that that russia is an empire and that's that's an achievement of the budding's third term he has made russia empire again and a lot of people are happy with that a lot of people are proud about that in that sense 1917 is not is is very uncomfortable period to be proud of we can they cannot compare themselves I mean the authorities cannot compare themselves with with anyone that's the period when when russia used to be an empire but the bureaucratic state collapsed because it was unaffected and the the civil society was strong enough to to start creating some some democratic institutions for buddin who's go who's going to be elected re-elected next year that's that's not that's not the tool he can use the empire he is he's reconstructing is like an imaginary empire that that that is a mixture of different different parts of soviet union of russian empire before the revolution it's it's not it's not a continuation of something great but that's that's that's probably one of the reasons why he always criticizes lenin and he he never stops denouncing lenin as the man who who destroyed russia but that's there is much more sophisticated edited to stalin being interviewed by oliver stone put in said that any attempt to demonize stalin is an attack against russia that was that was like the first time ever when put in vocally started protecting stalin from being demonized but that's that's important because stalin is obviously viewed as a person who has rebuilt russia who has restored the empire so probably that's that's the major explanation of that not widely commemorated anniversary i i i've never i've never saw any sign of as as many journalists usually say russian troops are afraid of they are not afraid i've never saw any any sign of fear they are very self-confident they're not afraid just they don't need it so take your historian hat off and put your political analyst hat off and describe for all of us what it means now for vladimir putin to be a presidential candidate in an atmosphere where he has no opponents there is no alternative to the system that he's created and where this message about imperialism conservative values triumph over the west and all this you know kind of fake history about the origins of the russian state lying in crime you know i mean everything is possible right because this russian history is unpredictable right it's it's it's clay and they can they can make it into whatever they want but but i'm just very curious will that set of themes further alienate the people who were at the heart of 2011 2012 and the great success of dos or are they now have they lost their ability to see what's real and what's not real and you know will they think yeah rush is great and the west is you know our enemy like is that a a unifying message across russian society or complicated question okay i'll start with with those those people that that middle class that that was really very opposition minded six years ago uh in 2011 2012 putin's approval ratings were really low was he was not wasn't popular actually the reason for all those protest rallies uh was the announcement that he was going to replace medvedev um he that that that was that was the reason for for his dramatic change and for for for the changing of the ideology and that the team in kremlin that was the reason why why valoide didn't replace surkov that was the reason why why he stopped thinking of trying to fascinate middle class and just started appealing to traditional values and to those people who who were probably less educated or less western oriented um what happened to to the middle class uh to a civil society that was very unhappy with with putin coming back a lot of people started being disillusioned with political process because all that political activity uh hasn't brought any success uh even even more all the all the examples every every time when when somebody tried to um to start successful political campaign he ended up badly uh the classic example was not even alexander vali but uh yovgeny roshov the opposition leader who who who won the election of mayor of yaroslavl and who was um uh imprisoned shortly after and i think he's still in prison and that that's a tragedy uh nevalny was was very unlucky um after being absolutely sure that that that's his destiny to become the new president the next president of russia from being a huge superstar in in uh 2012 he he almost lost it all until his recent comeback um but a lot of people who were who had real hopes that they can change the political climate found out that uh so far they are not able to to make any political changes but at least they can make some social changes so a lot so all that potential um was turned uh into social sphere we had uh after uh 2012 a lot of new um volunteer organizations charity foundations um a lot of new NGOs uh uh which are trying to uh to solve the problem of orphans that that is is actually achievement because after the infamous law that banned um foreigners from adopting russian children uh that tremendous work have been done and uh the the situation is is is better than than it used to be because everyone understands everyone understands that the state is not going to solve that that problem so the civil society should do that um ludeville alexieva for for example when when i've heard her i i spoke to her many times and i've heard her answering the same question what has happened to russian civil society why it's not protesting she she always says that you don't know what's happening in russian regions we we have lots of human rights uh organizations in every single region of russia we could never expect that um like five or ten years ago everyone was absolutely indifferent um everyone didn't seem to didn't uh not to care now uh it seems like uh the society um is much more mature now people seem to uh feel responsibility for others they they are starting some volunteer organizations they they uh actually charity has become a nationwide phenomenon um so it's it's positive trend in a way but it's at the same time it's obvious that that that activity cannot uh cannot be connected with anything political because everyone knows that if you are if you're going to to run for any political office uh you can be imprisoned you can find some disgusting videos on youtube about you or your family or or or the part of the prosecutors are going to to come to your business and and with the unexpected inspections a lot of a lot of problems are going to come if you are running if you if you are political um so that's that's the uh the the reality where um where civil society is active but within uh the boundaries so one final question and then i'll open it up uh for questions and thoughts from from the audience your book is dedicated to a very interesting very famous russian theater director who's now under house arrest and the there's a parallel at the very end in the epilogue of the book where you talk about the rise of sort of conservative groups in the pre-revolutionary period that were targeting groups that they were uncomfortable with and i'm sort of curious what lessons we sure importance we should attach to the case of someone like Kirill said a bit of today who is being pressured for what is obviously a form of very modern very sophisticated cultural work which there are plenty of radical voices in nationalist orthodox circles in russia that they find completely distasteful and that they would like to see removed from uh center stage literally center stage uh in moscow i'm just sort of curious are we seeing the beginnings of of very serious push to constrict where civil society is still very active which is in the cultural sphere or is this a kind of one-off random event um you know i think that these are two different processes and uh the case of kirill cerebrum is very important because i um probably i'm exaggerating but i'm afraid i'm not uh because i i must admit that that kirill is my friend and i know him personally very well and uh i was talking to him a lot of a lot right before his rest after uh all that all that case started it seems to me that that that pressure and his arrest could be compared to the to the case of michael khodorkovsky in a way that um ten years ago khodorkovsky was um like a sacred victim he was known as uh the most famous the most prominent the most active business leader and punish and his punishment was was not only uh part of uh mr satan's attempt to uh to get his company but also a showcase for all the big business so so everyone would know that uh there was an example uh what's that's what what can happen to anybody who is too politically bold and who who can who's trying to challenge the regime um just like khodorkovsky cerebrum is the most prominent uh cultural activist in the country he's like the most um revolutionary politically sharp i'm not in terms of um political revolution but in terms of artistic revolution he he's the best known um theater director he's the leader of the public opinion he's the symbol of the new uh Russian culture and um when he's targeted everyone feels that that uh that that means that's a pressure against the whole artistic society every single artist actor um right um feels that that pressure and um the details of the process show that that's a very political process and that's that that's impossible to start that process uh process without Putin's approval because it's absolutely kevkin he is accused of stealing all the money and not preparing any shows but although thousands of viewers attended those shows and we uh he he he he had european awards for those shows that according to the court never took place that's the paradox uh at the same time we've got um that new phenomenon of um of that religious fundamentalist renaissance it's rather new russia has hasn't been a religious country for at least several decades i would say almost century uh so that that's rather new i i suppose that um the that movement is not that politically influential if we if we're we're speaking about about um parliamentarian natalia poklonskaya who who symbolizes that that strange movement of people who who adore nikolas the second and and are ready to to destroy everything that it seems to them um is disrespectful that's that that's still a marginal group uh and their political influence is minimal at the same time probably there there is something much more uh much more sweet but influential like uh well known father tihon who is supposed to be uh or who is rumored to be put as confessor um and according to well known rumors that was father tihon who could be one of the initiators of of cerebronikov's trial because of his film student that was buried into clerical and that according to those rumors offended father tihon so um cause russian uh many people in russia are um are talking about what can happen after budin is reelected is that radical fundamentalist group finally could could become stronger if russia can become christian iran or or something like that that's still that that's still um um something that that seems too um too irrational these are irrational fears but they have some some some grounds because um it's hard to understand why these people are if if not getting support from the government but still they are they are tolerated okay so let's open things up for for questions and i really do appreciate people complying with the ground rules of asking a question and if you could just first identify yourselves and wait for the microphone and we'll start up here in the sweater yeah microphones coming thank you very much it's very interesting i think at the beginning of just identify yourself and pose a question yeah larry checo uh checo communications i found the uh found this all very interesting and thank you um in the beginning i think what you were trying to say is history is written by the victors and so a lot of what went on prior to you know underneath the bureaucracy was never written 50 to 100 years from now what will russians know about the putin era about the putin era about putin now would will he be eulogized or will he be seen as a full guy you know i'm i'm very bad at predictions and i forgot i forgot my crystal malty i'm sorry but you know when i was writing my previous book all the premise man uh my mantra that i kept on repeating when i was trying to convince different people uh in kremlin or in duma or in um or big business leaders was that i'm writing the book for those who are going to to read it in 100 years that that's that's not book for for for us who know what's happening that that's a book for for the people who are not watching the news we're not following the political events for the last 15 years and probably that's that that is one of the reasons for for that that book success in russia it's it's a huge bestseller and like more than 200 000 copies have been sold that's that's enough for for for russian non-fiction market because a lot of people are they don't know what's really happening and i i suppose that at least at least that book all the premise man would help some people to understand what was happening and why we had that tremendous return in the first decades of the 21st century um and as we know um speaking about in 100 years uh that's a good news that all the diaries and records and and correspondences are going to be revealed and we're going we we were happy to or unhappy to read some some emails of mr surcoff or some members of his administration definitely we're going to to read emails and faxes and text messages of of mysticization and all of them in in 100 years and all of them are going to be published and so so i think it i think that the russians who are going to uh to think about about putting in 100 years they will have the proper information on the way in the back Chris Dan Lieberman i'm a writer yeah i often wanted where joseph stalin got the power to gain power he really didn't have any click in the polar bureau he didn't seem to have any influence in the military uh i don't think he had any special influence in the nk vd just how did he get the power to gain power and keep power tell him you probably know that that that stalin was actually the book is not about stalin he he he's mentioned there a couple of times but but actually i that's a well-known story as well stalin was was good at um of using his enemies against his enemies first he started with using zinoviev and kamenev against trotsky then he switched sides and started using buharan against zinoviev and kamenev then he changed his mind and destroyed buharan he was very um reactive he was uh he all all the time changed the switched sides he always changed the line first he announced that that's a time for an open bro discussion uh in a year he announced that the situation is very difficult we're under attack so you are not participating in a broad discussion but you are undermining the borderline and you are threatening the country and your an enemy so he was quick in in in breaking his own rules and yeah that's the short answer right here thank you for your remarks alexander melik you should be i just mark it um i have a question that is directly related to the way the russian government now is uh choosing not to commemorate 1917 bolshevik revolution and in particular my question has to do with the series that were launched on the main russian tv called demon of revolution now it's very interesting series and the reason why i want to ask you this question is that in this series which i'm sure you're familiar with the the claim is made about a german funding playing a crucial role implementing the bolshevik revolution of november 1917 i would like to for you to weigh in on this issue thank you very much uh actually there are two tv tv shows now uh first of them is called demon of of the revolution the second one is is named trotsky so one of them is focused on lening the second one is focused on trotsky and they are slightly different uh the trotsky series is much slightly higher quality uh demon of the revolution is is not that is actually is not received very well uh that's that's not a surprise you know uh i saw for example although february revolution was not commemorated at all and the day when when there was 100 years after nikolas the second abdicated there was silence in on russian tv channels but um there was an online project created by by uh ryan novosti state government owned news agency and that was really impressive uh online um project that was proving that february revolution was was a color revolution sponsored by by britain um so that was clear that october revolution is going to be to be um shown as uh the color revolution sport sponsored by germany and and and there is a documentary on one of russian tv channels uh that is like with with documents and photos is proving that that that almost lening was a spy and that that's all was against privacy and any revolution is is an usually western interference into russian um political process i'm not surprised that's that's the way how um any instability is is any opposition activity is portrayed by by today's mainstream media any opposition is ordered by by the west any opposition is sponsored by the west and so there should should be no exceptions so october and february were were not an exception so so that's that's uh the part of the general line maybe one more question if we can go right here and then i should mention we're going to have a reception afterwards so folks should stick around and talk to mckelton yes my name is gene mckenzie and i'm a journalist this is a little bit more to do with all the kremlin's men of you in which you say that putin is a good tactician but not a great strategist and that if there is uh if you have to choose between evil intent and uh chance or mistake uh as a motivation for the kremlin's actions you should always go to mistake i'm wondering how you see uh the common view of putin and kremlin here uh in the united states today where we seem to make him the master strategist and that everything that is being done is being done with evil intent do you have a comment on that thank you thank you for for for making this this question the last question i i actually thought that that that was going to be the only topic we we are going to to discuss so so thank you uh yeah i'm really impressed by everything i'm hearing in in american media um for many years uh in russia we've been hearing that there is a huge conspiracy against russia and and cia and pentagon and state department are trying hard to to ruin russian state and to do anything just to destroy us um that that narrative um seemed to be rather uh successful in uh 2014 there was a huge wave of of patriotism and um isolationism and anti-americanism and now it's on decline so now if after after 2014 that that that narrative became a bit ridiculous a lot of a lot of people not not not sophisticated moscow journalists but that that became a common joke that probably we should blame obama administration for the dirty streets and for um the fact that somebody um has broken the bulb so so it's uh that cia behind every problem that exists in russia is is not that popular now period um um to some extent um what's happening now in american media reminds me of that narrative i'm i'm very familiar to and i've i've been hearing too for many years um to my mind putin's role and putin's genius is uh exaggerated if i may say that uh i think that he is idealized by by american media when he's portrayed as the mastermind and the man who um got a plan and who knew everything beforehand and who initiated it all and i still think that that's that's a wrong perception that that russian authority russian authorities are much more chaotic than uh they are described here as probably uh you know cia is or or american establishment is is usually uh described in russia as vertical of power um everything every strategy that has been written by alan dalis is being fulfilled until today and as they have general line to destroy russia they are doing that day by day and without any that's that's not the way uh russian authorities work they are not so well organized um the people who work for russian uh recruit services uh are usually nicknamed as the people who send faxes um because that's that's there is no internet on lubanka because it's unsafe and and it's just they they they don't use it uh they are not that technologically advanced as as many american journalists think um so i i believe that what happened was much more an opportunity than than a plan um that was much more a result of of a chaos that i'm i uh i'm not i'm not here to to to tell you about the results of my investigation because i i i didn't have a chance to make an an investigation of what was happening last year i was very preoccupied with 100 years old uh but um it seems to me that that that that could could have been a private initiative an initiative of private it company that wanted to uh to make a present for for president budin that uh that knew that that that would have been popular that would have been approved by him um but not the initiative from kremlin or from from uh secret service that that looks like bold coincidence than uh than part of the strategy i think you need to take a closer look at some of the technical details because the the forensic information that's available publicly that connects the activities of state-sponsored cyber actors and how persistent they were in accessing emails and distributing information through state-controlled or non-state-controlled uh instruments online all of that stuff is fairly straightforward you can come up with an argument that the state is not fully centralized and i have no problem believing that but but i would just be careful on the specific piece which involves a level of technical expertise i'm not i'm not i'm not i'm not saying that they are they are they weren't there i i'm not the one who says that that was like somebody um who did that absolutely independently that's that that's a complicated system everyone in a way is um a lot a lot of private companies have have to be uh subcontractors of of the government and they they have to they have some uh some interests and some if they uh if they do delicate things they they have the government money government money so so they they are dependent um at the same time you know um that scandal is is a new one but domestically the same methods have been used for for more than decade we had such a history of of d-dust attacks of hacking of uh um of of online scandals in russia like i i remember attack against uh against astonia that happened in 2007 and that was not the first uh because uh the the domestic tests have been started uh well before that and and when when i was uh working for for d-dust we had like like us or any other independent media we we had to spend a lot of time a lot of money just just trying to um to think of how should we uh protect ourselves ourselves from those um eternal attacks we we knew that if if there is going to be a protest rally probably one day before we were going to be attacked and and that's why we should create mirrors um a lot of different websites so if if one of them is not functioning we we use nervous servers that we we have been witnessing that system for many years well i wish we could have ended on a happier note but but we're delighted to have had you here we wish you every success with the book it's really been a great privilege thank you thank you so please stick around there's books for sale at a steep discount and a reception that'll start immediately afterwards and hopefully you can get mckayle design copies of the book