Welcome to Digital Asset News. My name is Rob. Today, the case can be made for a recovering bullishness, not to say that we're not going to see some bearish tendencies in these markets as they play out, but just take a look at some positivity that's going on. I kind of broke this down into three different sections. One is the narrative as far as what is going on in the market itself. The second part was going to take a look at just some indicators and things that are going on. And lastly, we'll take a look at some on-chain analysis. So to jump right in, first things first, I might take a look at the bear market. The first thing I think about is, is this a time to build in our other projects building? Well, not only they're building, but other products are dying. And that quite honestly is better than these other projects building because when you can have these projects die off, they take away the funds that of course are stuck there and people have them. They can move those into other portfolios or other different products that probably are more deserving. And also the resources that these dying or dead products are hoarding can actually move some place else. So this is a great article from BlockWorks and talks about how crypto's dead coins are portfolio pitfalls. And 2023 proves hopeful. And what it talks about is that the research compiled by a coin kickoff shows that more than 90% of digital assets spun up since a crash in 2014 have since been abandoned by investors and developers. What that means is that since 2014, 90% of the trash that was out there is just done for. There was a Bitcoin surge in 2013, roughly 793 new tokens joined the fray by the end of the following year. Of course, this happens every single time when you have all-time high years, 2013, 2017, 2021.  Data from dead coin follower CoinOpsy found digital assets tend to have remarkably short lifespans, just 15 months. More than half of all coins introduced every year between 2013 and 2018 no longer exist. So we're taking a look at 15 months. You know what's great about that? We are now in 2023. We're going into January. If we're talking about 15 months, 2021 or 2022 was a pretty rough year. Things started in 2021, which means that those projects are dying off and the resources are going to be allocated to different crypto projects again that are more deserving. So that's the narrative. And then also, if we take a look at the things that are going on globally, this is a good one also in Blockworks. Dubai Freezone now home to more than 500 crypto startups. A dedicated hub for local crypto entrepreneurs attracted twice as many startups last year than in 2021. So remember, in 2021, we had our all-time highs. 2022 was rocky, but this was the time as everything started to fall down and we move into it that more projects are starting to build. And what's a good way to do that? First of all, you want to move to a place that's a little more crypto friendly than the United States and also for tax incentives. That is why they move into Dubai. They can openly and freely create and don't pay so much taxes. So this was 150 crypto related startups were added in 2021 and now they had twice as much as 343 where digital assets startups joined DMCC's crypto center roughly in 2022. So again, these two things, the narrative which I say is, well, that's positive from moving into a bearish case into a bullish said case. And also we take a look at some, some indicators here. The MVRV score, which is, this is the market value divided by or taking a look at the realized value. The realized value is the orange line where it takes away all this, some noise or excuse me, the Z score, takes away some noise. And we can see, I love this website looking at Bitcoin, makes things very simple. When things get into overheated territory, maybe a good idea to think about selling. When we get some degree in territory, maybe a good idea to start accumulating. And we are still in this green zone. But if you can take a look here, we are rebounding a little bit more and going on to the up trajectory, but very slowly, I might add. Also, if we take a look at some, as far as current price for who is in the money and out of the money, once we start to get, this is from into the block, see how there's 52% as in the money, 47% is out of the money. Once we start to hit that 50-50 ratio, and once we start to have more people out of the money than in the money, that's when more people just capitulate and say, we're done. And you can see that we're pretty close. And actually over time, what's interesting about this is that you'll note that during these huge sell-off times, when people are out of the money, and we can take a look here in 2015, some of the biggest slumps were when we had the cycle lows, here's January 5th, 2015, and people that were out of the money, 65%. If we take a look over here, cycle highs and lows, when was the ultimate low? Well, January 2015, how crazy is that? And if we go forward, take a look into 2018, coming along this way, we can see that's on, actually, Monday, December 3rd, 2018, 53% were out of the money, and only 43% were in. And in 2018, December, when was that? Well, if we go forward, that was also the lows at the same time. And now, where are we at? Well, we're over here, and we're almost 50-50 split. So, I think if we're not at the bottom, we're close to the bottom, I still think we can go a little lower, but I think 2023 could be that turnaround year. And then lastly, take a look at the monthly returns every year, or every four-year cycle.  So, in 2015, you've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, seven green months, and of course, five red months. And if we take a look at 2019, we had one, two, three, four, five, six green months, and six red months, so roughly 50-50, same thing as again. And 2023, I think we're going to repeat that process.  But one thing to note here, and this is going to be interesting how this plays out, but you see the numbers here, we're 5% up for January. You'll note that in the January months of the rebound years, we were down 7% for January. And in 2015, we were down 31%. If we can close on a reset year, on a positive, that will be a game changer for just where as far as momentum we are going. Now, it's only the 12th of January. We've got a couple of weeks to go, but things are looking relatively positive. Does that mean that we can't just drop off a cliff tomorrow? No, that's not what I'm saying. But I think there's some things to look at that are a little bit better. Now, there's some macro events. And of course, we've talked about that numerous times. I don't think everything's going to turn around on a dime and just start going straight up. But I think we potentially could be in a better place than we were in 2022. So that's it for today. So look, like this video, give it a thumbs up, consider subscribing, all things we talk about our time sensitive, especially things we just said. So that's it for today. Thanks so much for stopping by. See you on the next one.


Well, this was a pretty dramatic case report, but it was just one person. Recently, researchers at Harvard decided to look at 100,000 people, low-carb diets, and all-cause and cause-specific mortality. They found that low-carb diets were associated with higher all-cause mortality, higher cardiovascular disease mortality, and higher cancer mortality. The final nail in Atkins Coffin. Even women on low-carb diets live significantly shorter lives, more cancer deaths, more heart attacks. Sure, you may lose some weight, but the only way we may be able to enjoy it is with a skinnier casket. But wait, in 2009, some enterprising researchers came up with a plant-based low-carb diet, the so-called Eco-Atkins diet. They figured that maybe the problem with the Atkins diet wasn't that it was high-fat high protein, but that it was high animal-fat animal protein. So, they constructed like a vegan version of the Atkins diet. How is that possible? Well, lots of mock meat, satan, soy burgers, veggie bacon, veggie cold cuts, veggie sausage, tofu, lots of nuts, avocado, etc. How did they do? Pretty good, actually. Instead of their bad cholesterol going up like it does on a meat-based Atkins, after just two weeks on the plant-based low-carb diet, their LDL was down more than 20%. Now, the whole study only lasted a month, though, so you couldn't really make any generalizations, but it was intriguing enough that when that data was run at Harvard, they picked out the people eating plant-based low-carb diets to see if they suffered the same low-carb fate. That's the nice thing about doing dietary studies on 100,000 people at a time. You can find people eating just about anything. What do you think they found? This line represents the mortality rate of the typical diet, and this is what they found for people following more of an Atkins-style low-carb diet, significantly higher risk of death. But what do you think they found for those following a plant-based low-carb diet? Do they suffer the same crazy mortality as the Atkins people? Or maybe they didn't do that bad, but still had more mortality than those eating regular diets? Or did they have the same or lower mortality? They had lower mortality. They concluded a low-carbohydrate diet based on animal sources was associated with higher all-cause mortality in both men and women, whereas a vegetable-based low-carbohydrate diet was associated with lower all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality rates.


How's it going lads and ladies it is Bert from Pumpkins here and I am joined as you can see by Frank Frank. What should I call you these days? It was PS4 Frank then was firewall Frank. What's what kind of Frank? I think just just normal old Frank is just Frank just Frank is good Just Frank thank first of all. Thank you for taking time out of your day to join me. Appreciate us and uh How have you been? How are you? Oh, really good, man. All things considered like I was telling you earlier I mean a lot going on trying to figure out what really are the big next steps, but overall just staying super positive I mean that's all you can really do in life. All right. Delighted to hear so Frank. I have prepared for you a series of questions Uh, if you would be kind enough as to tackle them for me in your own time I can try my best sir. Uh, I think personally anyway, I'm very interested in your story I'm sure there's other people out there who'd like to hear it too. So that's why we're here My first question is you had a very successful youtube channel back before you joined first contact entertainment And if I remember right, it was even ahead of without parole who are kind of the top dogs now in PS for your youtube content So my first question is how did you start getting into making youtube videos and why did you pick PS for your as your topic? So I started making youtube videos in college probably even before college I think I started with skateboarding videos I'm like junior high school through high school and like jackass videos and stuff because that was super popular I got to college started a like TV show on the college network and we just decided to like Upload those videos that we would make to youtube But it wasn't really much of anything and these were still semi early your youtube days So there wasn't like a It wasn't like a massive content people weren't going for streamers or anything But I had watched this video by mike wesh called an anthropological look at youtube One night when I was tripping balls with my buddy And it completely changed the way that I saw online cultures and like saw myself in the space And just how you're able to kind of present yourself as you really are on youtube versus these kind of like Characters that we see every single day in life or really see a person We don't really know their true self and youtube you can really kind of get to your true self and everything which is really cool And so I I knew that I wanted to get into youtube then But I just was doing it kind of half-assed and just messing around and not really paying attention to it Fast forward to post college Working as the manager at the restaurant psvr1 came out. I got a game I think it was weeping doll. I'll never forget this and it was honestly one of the worst games they ever played I remember that uh Yeah, it was terrible. It was terrible I you mean, I can't remember anything about it now other than like the creepy doll on the cover But I remember feeling super burned from the game and then going on youtube going online seeing if there were any videos Seeing if there were any reviews about it and no one had put anything up and I was like, uh I mean if I were someone else I would not really want to get burned on this game too So hey, why don't I just do like a little mini review of this game put it up on youtube? See what happens? I put it up and then the next morning I had like 300 views which to me was like mind-blowing. I was so excited I was so hyped People were really into it I got a lot of feedback because back then I was like talking like this because I was kind of like not ready to Use my voice and so I got a lot of like you you should just do like creepy pastas or like work on your voice And so Trying to do that kept working on it got new mics Got blah blah blah so on so forth and then just really fell in love with it I knew I always wanted to do it and um, that was just the perfect time.  I know Okay, so you kind of took off then you kind of got fairly big. I would say you were kind of very recognizable At least in the ps viewer space So at some point Presumably has or someone from first contact entertainment approached you about this job for first contact entertainment And yeah, so has reached out to me on facebook Wild I had no idea he even reached out to me And then david jagmail from upload vr sent me a message on twitter that was like, yeah, man It has to trying to get a hold of you from first contact. Um, check your facebook messages. Can I connect y'all? Um, and then he connected me we played around a firewall zero hour together has teabag me a bunch of time Nice as he does um, and it was yeah, of course And I think like shabs was in there a couple other dudes from the team were in there and I just didn't really I didn't know um And next thing I knew I started working remotely for them helping make some content through my channel through their channels And then I think six months seven months later. I moved out to california Oh, okay So my question for you about that then is When you were asked to join first contact, you know full-time Was that a difficult decision for you because you had already built up this platform on youtube and you're kind of Going places, you know in that regard. Was it something difficult or did you just jump at it straight away? Uh, it was semi difficult I mean in in all honesty the youtube channel on top of wanting to build a community and having people kind of Feel like there was a place that they belonged. I also considered it a bit of like a living resume Um, and initially when I got unhired on at first contact, they were okay with me continuing the channel So my assumption was that I was going to kind of get to keep making videos and this and that and then as it played out That was not the case Which was like I for a while there I had like it was just real unhappy on my mental health because I really enjoyed the community I really enjoyed making content. I really enjoyed Updating videos and this and that and we're probably like six months where I was just super depressed And then once I got over that bump and kind of started doing stuff more at fc I just didn't I don't know, you know, it's like everything time You just kind of forget about it and like it's upsetting as it was for me I was just busy with so many other things that I just didn't even think about it Okay um, so I mean this is kind of A question based on what you the answer you've just given me there But do you think yeah, do you think if you knew that going into it? Would you still have accepted the job? That's a hard one just because hindsight 2020 and everything to happen and this and that but probably yes Because it was my first crack in the game dev is like a professional sense and especially considering like the Level of that studio. So it was first party playstation title I mean I bled blue for as long as I could remember So just the thought of being able to kind of work hand in hand with playstation Um got me super excited and was really one of the reasons I started the channel too. Um, so I probably would have taken a bit more prodding But I think it would have worked out Anyway, just because like the amount of stuff that I learned the amount of things that I was able to do would just I mean, I who knows what would have happened with the channel had I kept going during then but it was Running the channel at that time was very stressful for me too Because I was working like 12 hour shifts and then I would get home and stay up to like five in the morning Working on videos and getting them out Um, so it was it was hard and I was I've always been a like Try to push a video out every day Respond to every single comment try to stay completely on top of the news everything extremely relevant everything the newest information Which just kind of got to me a little bit So it was nice too to get kind of a little break from that and also know that you have this like Safety net of a good job and kind of a start towards a career because I knew I wanted to get into entertainment Um, I've always wanted to and so this was kind of like my foot through the door and now I have that on a resume which is great and I have all of that like learning that I got which is amazing And I'm back with the channel. Uh, so I think all in all, yeah, probably was still taking it because I mean I'm a big like if an opportunity comes and it sounds exciting like go for it All right understandable And that being said in the future, uh, I would prefer to align with brands and companies Unless it's like the I don't know what the dream job would be like that would make me stop ever doing that ever again I have I don't know if it exists in my mind um But I'd like to continue making the content and Making stuff even if I do get a job with another company because I know a lot of companies are fine with that It just happened to be that we were first party playstation Um and because I was just so playstation specific at that time it could have been misconstrued as Like insider trading the content, you know, I mean like if I said something people like oh, he works at playstation That's probably the answer and that could bite you and he asked yeah All right. I mean you can kind of see where that comes from as well like you you can kind of get us um So my next question is This was your first job inside the gaming industry So you went from youtube and to being actually inside the industry How did the reality of the job line up with what you expected? Was it a difficult transition and also as well? I don't believe there was a community manager role before you joined first contact I could be wrong But when you came on board is it something that you kind of had to figure out yourself? Or was there somebody there kind of show you the ropes? As you were doing this there was a girl named Jess there. She was awesome She really helped a lot of everything she was doing or like the pr side of stuff I think they hired a community manager at one point in time But from what I gathered that the person that was doing the job just didn't do it to what their expectations were And it was like a never public role. So I think they were excited to have me on there and um, I It was overwhelming at first of the studio because like I'm this youtuber they get tired and all the Honestly first contact was not like like there's I've seen a lot of developers And they have a lot of younger guys work there and kids out of college, you know To me and like most independent developers. It's it's a younger community Sometimes it's a little bit when I got there was all super seasoned vets like these guys have had 20 plus years in the industry It was pretty much the average So I came through the doors everyone was like who the hell is this guy like what the hell is he doing here? And so it took me a little while to kind of get that respect in the studio of like Oh, he knows what he's doing. He's professional Like this isn't just some asshole off the internet that has brought in Because he thought that he was fun or you know what I mean And so I think that that was my biggest hurdle was just to kind of like get the respect from the team and see that They really cared a couple guys were great from the start and like we're already fans of the contents They understood that I had like a good work ethic, but at the end of the day I mean they pulled someone from the other side of country that they really knew nothing about whatsoever and just prayed that it was gonna work out and Thankfully everybody loved me and I was super helpful and helped every area of the team, but uh Yeah, I got there and really had no idea what was gonna go on I thought that I would have a whole lot more freedom with what was going on But then you learn about this thing called a legal department And it just changed the entire way that I Had to act and work with the community and this and that and Personally, I don't really think that it's the best way to run socials and run a studio Especially when you're doing live ops and you're doing Games they're constantly updating and games that need feedback from the community. It's just You lock yourself into these choices and these things and you aren't really able to react because like let's say There was an issue with the game Even if I would want to respond to the community about the issue with the game It would take crafting a response sending that off to pr Getting that response approved and then finally being able to respond And so in that meantime you got these people that like why the hell aren't you saying anything? Why aren't you doing any of this? Why aren't you doing that? And it's like, I'm sorry you guys I'm seriously just following protocol It would I could get myself into a giant pit of trouble if I say anything other than what's been approved From like partner guidelines Yeah, that was It's exactly the red tape is crazy and and the thing is I completely understand it I know where they're coming from and I do not hate them at all for it And I don't feel like there's no like sense of like, oh these people were bad or these people made this It was just like when you're at working at a multinational corporation and and any little thing people could try to nitpick and Come at you for or sue you for you have to be super super safe And I think that they're slowly adjusting and realizing with the times but that's still They have to be very careful and they have to be very safe and cautious with everything they do versus like A developer that has no one to speak up to or no worries about this They can just do whatever the hell they want and Traditionally, I've noticed that that's what we see in the VR space because most developers are independent developers So it was like Very hard for the community to understand that although firewall and first contact entertainment don't feel like god of war The last of us um and naughty dog and sony sanamanica It's the same vibe. It's the same sort of like machine behind it and It was not something folks were used to in the VR space and I think that that was kind of rough all right Interesting, so they just had to make sure they were covering their ass constantly Yes, yes, always Okay, so my next question then is you joined first contact right after zero hour released But you were there for the development Of salaris and firewall ultra from the very beginning. So how did it differ jumping in? On a project that was kind of post launch versus being there from the beginning And did it feel like jumping into the deep end abyss when with zero hour was already like, you know, full steam ahead compared to those other titles Thankfully, I had already been covering zero hour on my channel So I kind of felt like I was a bit of the like Like I had a connection to where the development of the game had been going same with you You know, I mean you had been covering it early So you kind of felt like you were attached to the title before it even came to existence Um, so I had already felt like I had been a part of that community, especially because we were doing like Uh top clip contests. We were trying to run tournaments and stuff even before I joined the team So that felt like a real natural transition And it didn't really feel overwhelming Especially because I wasn't building the game. It wasn't hard. A lot of things were kind of lined up for me Uh, the other games were a little more difficult and Uh, a little more like in the process It's very interesting to see how a game develops from just basic concept to People take a whole bunch of numbers and turn them into visuals and it blows my mind Like I don't think that your average player really understands what goes into making a game from scratch Uh, a lot of people think that there's like, oh all this stuff is already ready to go Oh unreal already has like a first person shooter thing. All you got to do is kind of add a couple things here and there and you're done and Drag and drop and yeah While some games can be drag and drop when you're dealing with a company that makes like bespoke assets and more bespoke titles. It really The process is nuts, man And there are just so many checks and like I never understood what cost was and like understanding like the different memory usage and How textures need to be applied and the different levels of textures and why this looks a certain way and why we can't do things a certain way it was Really cool to be in there Understanding everything and it gave me further insights into kind of sharing with the community when I was able to share Um, so I'd say I really enjoy being there from the conception rather than joining right at the end Just because it's it's fun to like be a part of a project and see it grow and test it every day And see the changes that they make when they're testing and like come up with a cool idea And everyone's like oh damn that would be a cool idea. And then we try it and it either works or shit um But something about that iterative process is really cool versus like Just working on something established, uh, it was fun to work on something established But if I could do it all over again I would have loved to even join like when they were starting firewall That would have been super cool Like some of the pictures that they would have when there's just like three or four of them in an office Setting up their PCs and it was just like everybody looks like they're like 20 years old And it's nuts how much game to have ages you like our cto over the like eight years went from like Full head of hair to like super stressed gray hair Full head of black hair to like super stressed with gray hair and he's always stressed about it But I think he looks great with the gray hair But uh, yeah, man, it's like it's like those Lincoln before and after war photos Um when you see before and after a studio starts and their games come out It's it's very it's nuts to see like that stress and everything how it can affect a person's body You've all got the thousand-year stare now Yeah, dude Uh, okay So my next question if you were there when firewall zero hour had the infamous operation might fall incident So that must have been difficult especially in your role as a community manager. Can you say anything like about that time? Yeah, a night fail has the community I didn't want to say That was Get your gray hairs there at the end of the day Yeah, well, I had no idea that that was gonna happen because I wasn't in on the dev And when you're trying stuff on like our side and we're dealing with our qa and our support system Most things are working really well But then once It hits like the live environment and you you get things out to scale you start to see different problems arise that were unexpected Um, and sadly just because of how the vr is it was very very hard to test fully at scale Uh before anything came out and so that one was just kind of like uh stress because it was the first time where it was like Oh, I really want to like respond to the community and tell them this and tell them we're working on this And tell them our dates and tell them we're trying to get started and not really apologize But you know what I mean say like yeah, I completely understand your frustrations and this and that and While I while that's okay to hear like people want harder information and harder details about why this and that are happening And I was not able to do that and it was my first time really hitting that wall when it came to working with the community and It was not fun. Um, I got like death threats I had like Jesus hate groups made up about me Like it was not so I can't even imagine working on some giant title Uh, like call of duty or something what those people get. Um, but yeah, man It was it was not the greatest time in my life, but thankfully we got through that Um, and then zero hour just kind of kept going and going and going. Yeah, you definitely saw the dark side of community management, I guess Oh my god. Yeah, like if anything some things that people tell me from this they're like Well, what did you learn from the job and I was like, wow, I absolutely learned how not to do things Um, specifically within the VR community.  He was I had just uh, like play tested the game the other day And he had a bunch of like what he would consider and what a lot of us in the VR community consider kind of janky-ness to it Um, and he was kind of trying new things with the controls and it was like Something I learned from firewall ultron from zero hours that like there's all these other established VR shooters out there that people really enjoy Um, and there's no reason right now to try and like remake the wheel um So one of the big inputs I gave to him was I was like look at what other games are doing Look at what people are really enjoying playing and kind of match your controls to those and that way when players Really get into your game.  It's literally like, oh, this is this is like every other game that I've ever played and so That right off the bat is a learning thing that I got right away It was so happy to be able to like share with another developer and help them work on something so that on day one We're not getting that same feedback from a similar community. It's like I got the feedback I gave the feedback and now we're actually able to implement the feedback Uh, which is huge. I'm really enjoying that loop Uh, and I'm liking the I'm enjoying being able to work with a team that Can completely just listen to their community and any overwhelming feedback Can be okay. We hear you and we're gonna adjust and we'll adjust and see what y'all think and then go from there Um versus kind of like this is what we're gonna do All right, that's and I do have more questions later on about uh Please your work with uh Reggie and what now but a side question first. What's your dog's name? I've seen the dog pop up there in the background. Oh bruno There we go I like to call him bruno lini Like moose olini I got I could be careful who i'm calling them that in front of um, but yeah He's the man. I got him on valentine's day last year. It's like a valentine's day present to myself and uh He's my he's my best buddy. Love you. Yeah. That's my bruno Hey, love of my life All right, moving on the firewall ip is owned by sony, of course Boss salaris is something their first contact owned themselves So how different was it for you to work on each of those ip's presumably obviously you've already said us You are more restricted with firewall But is there any kind of can you want to detail on how you had to operate with firewall? Or maybe give an example of things you could do when it came to salaris that you couldn't do with firewall Yeah, like uh when it came to operating so like community stuff So with salaris with firewall if I wanted to take like let's say you made a video firewall And you gave it to me and I was like, oh, this is an awesome video I would love to share this on social media It would have to go through this whole machine of like I have to erase your tag I might have to get like a write-up from you to say that i'm allowed to use this within something else If I was able to live stream it it was kind of a loophole around it But it made creating creative content for the game very difficult because it was like Oh, you have to follow all these steps and all this and that salaris on the other hand A whole lot more freedom to just kind of do whatever I wanted to do um The only downside that we had done with salaris and my opinion was that There was a lot of like discussions on working with oculus and working with this and that Something that I have learned especially about oculus at that time is that they were a very big like Overpromise under deliver kind of company Um, I think that they were really just starting to get their footing and vr And footing and working with devs and put in with that and it kind of It felt like we put a lot of eggs in the like working with oculus basket And then in the end it felt like we were kind of just out there on our own when it finally launched And so I had had all these plans of like well, let's start our community. Let's let's start working with feedback Let's let the team. Let's get let the community get in on betas Let's like let's get some let's get people playing this before it comes out and kind of follow the Follow the rules that like all these other devs are doing and uh Because we kind of wanted to we were going to try and work with oculus and they had some plans for this and that we ended up Waiting for them and waiting for them and waiting for them and waiting for them And then like at the last minute it was like oh, it's not gonna happen Frank what are you gonna do and I tried to just reach out to a bunch of people and had them Jump in and play the game with us and set up some play times and this and that and really tried to Push as hard as I could but it was like I had what I had really wanted was impossible because as soon as salaris got like Like the conception. I thought like let's let's start the discord now. Let's get the community growing. Let's get people in there Let's start getting feedback. Let's let them see that and It was a lot of like, yeah, I'd like to do that frank But let's let's let's wait and see what what's gonna happen over here first and that like wait and see wait and see Wait and see came and then it's like oh shit launches like a month away all right Because yeah, I wanted we all wanted to do so much more with salaris I wanted to do so much more with salaris and there's still like a pretty devout small salaris community to play on quest all the time Uh, at least once or twice a week. So it's been kind of amazing to see that that has continued on for this many years Uh, I've had a couple of them write out to me. It's like, oh my god, salaris changed my life Like it's the greatest game that I've ever played. I absolutely love it I had someone write the other day that was like, could you send me like any little bit of Art or something that hasn't been shared before just because this game really does mean so much to me and When you see comments like that, it's like oh my god Like i'm so glad that i'm doing what i'm doing because there's very few other Industries that you're gonna get that kind of feedback from a player Um, or from just on a person. Yeah, so it was it was weird. Um, I definitely wanted to do more with salaris But what can you do? I only one person I had no idea that you're kind of as restricted with Salaris as oh you ended up being kind of as restricted as you were with firewall with sony uh, so that's yeah, we just We ended up kind of doing it to ourselves and it wasn't like we wanted to be it was just kind of like we had been semi-promised a couple not really promised told that these sort of things were gonna happen and then they just never came to fruition okay All right, so next up then Firewall zero hour got years of post-launch support 10 seasons of content But salaris kind of came out and didn't ever really get anything similar like this Was this due to salaris just not being as popular or wasn't more to do with the lack of funding seen as you know It wasn't backed by sony like firewall was or was it because firewall ultra kind of entered the scene at a certain Point and you kind of changed focus to that Yeah, I mean it was it's kind of like a mix of everything Without going like too deep into it But like there were plans to do more with salaris and add a whole lot more to it But it was just kind of one of those costs versus time versus what are other people doing versus they need to be on this project Um, and we can't have everybody working on this other project We need a certain number of people working on zero hour working, you know what I mean? so it just kind of It wasn't able to really get its wings and then we started work on ultra and it was just like all hands on ultra All right fair enough. Um, maybe if salaris had launched with like crazy crazy numbers and like through the roof and continued going going it could be a different story but because it was kind of like a Not so hard hitting launch. I think that like the the emphasis to continue pushing on that was kind of laid back Not to mention working with oculus at that time was very difficult Like you would do all this stuff for your game and then They would update their back end and they would never warn you and it would break a whole bunch of stuff in your game So something that we would have working a day before I have to pull guys that they're working on something else They're busy and now I got to come in and work on this because they got no forewarning that this was going to happen Um, and I haven't worked in oculus dev or meta dev in a minute So I I'm sure I'm hoping that they've gotten feedback and have learned and they're They're the system's gotten a bit smoother and a bit better and a bit easier to work on their platform But yeah at that time it was still a bit of the like Wild west when it came to, uh quest development and that that was tough man like Like our entire like squad system broke because they did a different update our entire like add a buddy system broke because they did a different updates and Then we didn't fill out one form one time on their website. So they just shut the game down completely and it was like geez like You were just constantly constantly like pushing to do something and getting surprised by stuff and things were really changing Because they were still really working on their interface at that time. They were really still working on everything It was it was getting to where it's at today But it was it was week by week and getting massive changes um Because I would argue to say that even quest 2 when it first came out was kind of still in like a beta phase when it came to oculus um ui and like the software and the home and everything because it was just Ha it was always updating even now it updates Um semi frequently but nowhere near where it was before um So yeah, that was uh, that was a mountain stable. Yeah All right, so that sounds stressful Well Yeah, I mean, I'm not the one making the code and everything but like our engineers were like stressing I can imagine Uh, okay. So firewall zero hour is probably one of the most successful first-party psv or one games At least when it comes to multiplayer So did you guys always know there'd be a sequel to us? And can you say anything about how firewall ultra came into being like wasn't something that first contact pitched to Sony or was it something that sony were like really eager to get on t for a sequel for psv or two? it was kind of I don't think that there were I mean when you're working game dev anytime you have a new idea Everybody's like, oh, we'll put it in the next version. You know what I mean? Like that's like the joke It's kind of like okay firewall three or firewall two. Yeah, we'll do that firewall two um So I think that like there was a want for that but it wasn't until that like we had sony reach out and was like Yeah, we really want this that it it came to be Uh, I mean, I think that we were working on some other little side projects playing with this and that seeing what people thought about those Um, there was a bit of like silence for a little while and then it ended up that it was like, yeah, we want firewall ultra Um, so we kind of started working on that. All right Um, okay, so firewall ultra is an interesting name. I've always thought Can you say anything about why this name was picked instead of something like a firewall two or zero hour two Like the lack of a number two and like the reuse of many of the firewall zero hour kind of assets like the maps Contractors weapons kind of gives it a feel that maybe it's more of a 1.5 or a remake or like an ultimate edition or something So was that kind of the intention or what can you say about that? I I didn't name it. It was our so firewall ultra was actually the code name before it was just ultra Was the code name before anything ever really came to be like that was like every company does that for most of their projects Just in case anything gets leaked. You can't really know what it is Um, and then it just happened to be that folks love the name firewall ultra because it didn't imply that it was like a direct sequel um, it didn't imply that it was like a Just an update it kind of just like implied that like this is like I thought like I think like, uh What's that movie where you turn it up to 11? Like that's the vibe, you know what I mean like ultra is like it just sounds awesome So it's like let's go with that name And I'm thinking that that was kind of the thought behind it.  This is a completely different game y'all It was more along the lines of these are some great places You know and now we're kicking it up to the ultra settings So what are we writing and saying like you said that you didn't want it to come across as a sequel The reason for that is probably like an improved sales when like people who might think they've missed the first one So they won't go for the second one. Is that the kind of thinking behind that? Maybe I don't even know if that was any kind of thought to that just because there was no like single player aspects to it So I don't feel like players, you know what I mean like if it's a single player game Hell yeah, you need to work on better, but I don't know if that was even considered when they were thinking about the name Yeah Okay, so Next question so firewall ultra did have a troubled launch as I don't need to tell you I'm sure The first month or two it was very difficult to match make for example with the full squad Many players kind of felt like there should have been a basic period that could have prevented this So what would what would your thoughts be on the base? I know you probably can't say too much but anything you can say on a potential.  But a lot of that was just out of my hands. I have always pushed for betas especially when it comes I mean like every multiplayer shooter does betas call the duty does betas Battlefield does betas fortnight is basically still in beta um, if they just keep iterating and so That is something that I really wanted But it just kind of never came to and like with any other VR titles and stuff once you go to scale there's just Like it's impossible to get there We're just not that when we were making the game No one had psv r2s except for us and like maybe one or two other devs because the hardware wasn't even at the point Where it was getting widespread and wide scale So even if we wanted to test anything it was just with a very very small group of people and while everything was working on that end Once you hit the big numbers. It's everything changes So Do I I think every probably game dev feels this way that when they launch the game They just cross their fingers and pray to god that it even can work um So most of us were although there were issues on day one that we absolutely like Understand and this and that it was kind of a relief Initially that it was just like okay. It's working at scale awesome like At least people can get it in play at least they can enjoy the maps at least they can get an impede and shoot You know what I mean? It wasn't like a connection to server loss connection to host loss. It wasn't like black screening constantly Um, so I saw that as you know what I mean? Like hey at least this it could have been a million times worse Yeah, but it also could have been a million times better. Um, but you know what can you do? all right Very fair answer So aside from the technical issues which kind of poured a bit of water on ultra's launch There was multiple design decisions that were made which kind of rubbed people the wrong way At least certain people So the eye tracking the ads eye tracking the ads grenades or sorry the eye track grenades being maybe the two most prominent ones there But there's also other things like you know, no manual reloads Dispice now having sense controllers instead of the m controller So did you foresee these decisions getting the reaction that they did and was there like a pressure from sony to be Including things like eye tracking as much as possible for example or I wouldn't call it a pressure But there was definitely like a hey you guys are like a first party title on this new hardware and It would be really great If you leaned into all these features, you know what I mean? Like hey, it would be it'd be really false and great If you lean into this just holding the gun in the holes Just just like so it wasn't directly like you have to do this Yeah, um in any way form or fashion and it was a lot of us just kind of wanting to test out new things honestly Although the ads I think Was a hit or miss when it came to feedback for it I can guarantee you that within 10 to 15 years of not less You are going to see that mechanic used in tons of VR shooters once eye tracking is considered a standard Um, I really think that we came up with a mechanic that a lot of people are going to use I mean hell even a resident evil kind of uses a little bit of a variation on that when it comes to doing their things It's not so tight. My big thing was like I wanted there to be parody between two handed and ads from day one Um, and and we finally got to that point, but that was like my big one I was like, you know what I don't I think ads is cool for players that I saw like a lot of like People that just Initially, maybe don't understand that you got to do this in VR It was a lot easier for them to just kind of hit the ads move around hit the ads move around and it gave Them a much more traditional sense to a shooter now When you're launching on a new piece of hardware that people are getting into and they want to be goofy and go around and not play Like games that they're used to playing You're absolutely going to get feedback, especially while we're in like the gorilla tag in my opinion generation of VR right now Like we're getting younger folks in there that really want like Something different than the game that they're playing But I suspect in five to ten years time you will see a lot more games that are similar to how like ultra handled It's handled the way that it It's ease and access of use like literally anybody even like a grandmother as long as I can figure out how to get into the Match could probably play ultra. It's not the most difficult thing to figure out once you get the controls Um, and I think once people get that I call it like the honeymoon phase, you know what I mean? Like I had years and years of going hard and trying every little thing in VR And like it was nice to kind of be able to really enjoy a beautiful space with great visuals great graphics Really great sound really cool map design and not have to like be all over my room But I know that I am not the majority of players Thinking that right now because the majority of people haven't spent like 10 000 hours in VR Already at this point there some of them have never even tried VR and when you throw them in something like that on their first game It's a little confusing because they're expecting a lot more but I can guarantee you guarantee you Once that feeling of having to like interact with every single little thing and all the time at every single game You have wears off And they want some other games where you can still enjoy the style of gameplay that you like But with a little less like stress and effort and not having a have a full room that I can move around in Uh, you're gonna see more games and tie those come up like that I I really do think that ultra was in many ways ahead of its time and in many ways just kind of not Aligning with what would be considered the VR market at the moment All right. Well, that's actually like I have to remind myself to come back to this video in 10 years time and see Did frank predict the future correctly, you know, that'll be fascinating to see um All right, I mean think about it like this like arcade games were huge When you would like go to the place and you jump on there and you push all the sticks And you do all the things and there are all these different arcade games now arcades are dead People are just playing on a controller where they're not even moving their body or doing any kind of anything like It's an inevitable transition. It's just how long they're going to take. Um, but yeah I would be very excited to see where we're at in 10 years time. Um For those predictions for sure, sir. Yeah 100% So I briefly mentioned it there in that last question the aim controller So I just want to bring up Did you lads when you were at first contact did you ever think When you were making ultra was like a potential aim to Ever in the discussion like did you ever think that maybe this would be something that would happen Or did you know from the very beginning that was just going to be these sense controllers and that was this I believe that there may have been an ask at one point in time I'm not 100 privy to like all that information because I can just tell you that we never developed with any kind of concept Of an aim to and mine because it never existed Um, but I do think that at one point in time there was a discussion like oh should there be an aim to And I think that the overall consensus was kind of like well a lot of players are buying into this Um system. They're having to buy the ps5. They're having to buy the psvr2. They're having to buy the game You throw on a whole another piece of hardware on top of that and it It creates even more friction into the entry versus you have these amazing controllers It's honestly best in class controllers great haptics great feel great ergonomics. Um, it's it felt like A no-brainer. We want to use these new controllers. We want to use all these new buttons versus kind of like going back to it was and Catering to a crowd that's just going to like get this and maybe making it more open for everybody that has psvr2 And it's not like oh, I got to like go buy the gun thing now, too Yeah, um And that has to be my assumption. I don't know speculating 100 but I feel like that was probably the vibe I feel like I overheard something once about that But I was never privy to that any of that information when it came to like hardware stuff That was a lot higher level than me That's kind of given me like inspiration for another question if you don't mind but uh What fire was your hour? Obviously like a lot of people use the aim control over that Was there a way for you to like track like what percentage of people were using the aims versus doujax back then? I don't know if there was or wasn't um that would like those are called like Uh, what do they call those I forget the industry name for it But they're like dashboards the dashboards will call you all the numbers like how many players are playing each day How many players are in each month how many players are in right now? And I'm sure that there was probably a filter to see what hardware they were using But from what I recall there was almost like a one to one When it came to physical sales of the disc and an aim controller purchases specifically because We were bundled with the aim controller, which made it a very easy like oh I'll just go get the firewall bundle like they don't even have the farpoint bundle anymore once ours came out There was a small number of farpoint bundles left I think they really did those in small numbers because I remember it was very hard to get when that first came out too Um, and then that really pushed. I mean I still see zero hour aim controller bundles in the stores So my assumption is that most players were on the aim controller. All right, so How would you say looking back at everything the closure or first contact and how everything went? No one what you know now, are you still happy to have had that experience? I know we kind of covered this earlier on but uh, just like overall everything that went down at the end Absolutely, man Like the the relation at the end of the day life is just all about the relationships that you make from people Everything else is bullshit.  It was like in continuation of me going to college I went to liberal arts school. So just I've been around artists my whole life. I was raised like Of a lover of fine art and Cultured items like that so to be able to work with some people that are just doing like like our character artists Like to watch him work on those busts It was like this is what it must have been like to like watch michael angelo work in the day back in the day Like like the tiny little individual details on the pores and the hair follicles coming out and everything like That blows my mind and then you talk to these people and they're like the sweetest kindest honest like People you've ever met like a lot of like my experience with artists have been their kind of douchebags Um, I I normally will respect a douchebag because as long as your art's good It's okay and like I can kind of get on the level with you But like game artists for the most part that I matter some of the just sweetest kindest open minded and and loving and like Great people I've never met and others always going to be in like overly egotistical personality here and there But games really does seem to attract um Just nice people that are love what they're doing and Love making stuff that the community get to see the big thing that every dab you'll ever talk to is just like I just really want to be able to make something that that that that our players are going to get to check out Um, that our players are going to say hey, that looks cool or that's really enjoyable And it's really nice to to hear that versus like I just want to get paid Um, which you which I personally never heard Um, like no one that we worked with and maybe it was just because our studio was special And we got people that were very passionate about what they're doing But no one was just like yo, I'm just talking in for paycheck.  And so Those friends and those relationships and those people that I met and everything that I learned You couldn't you can't trade that for the world There would have been no other way for me to ever get that experience and working on my channel I got to like work with devs and got to hang out with like a dev or two or interview now and then But really to be able to get hands on and feel like you're part of a development team is Something that I I think every gamer if they have the option to should like try to do that or try to get into game development Because it'll really change the way that you look at things and the way that you look at your developers and the way that you like Look at your community. It's it's there's a whole lot more going on than than a bunch of people trying to make a lot of money Nice. Um, so yeah, I love that If I wasn't already depressed about fc close, I'm even more depressed now hearing that these lovely people have You know lost their jobs Including yourself. Yeah Yeah, I was smart enough to set up like a little discord for all of our community and like guys And so like we've all stayed super in touch since the day that it shut down like Yay So everybody's helping each other out sharing jobs here and there like where they're finding job opening so it's been like Really nice to go from having this these guys that we were at least talking to every day to I think that if it hadn't been done, it would have felt a lot worse because it was a very smooth transition to like Oh, okay. Like at least we all still have each other, right? I kind of I don't know if you know What slack is but it's kind of like the industry standard for how you It's uh, like how it's like it's basically discord, but you got to pay for it Um, and it's how you would coordinate and send all your messages to your team and make sure everything's organized And so I just organized a discord very similar to our slack.   He's been like one of the most amazing people I've ever had the pleasure to work with One of the kindest people I've ever met in my life like like at one point in time I had like I had gotten through a divorce and I didn't have anywhere to live and house was like You didn't even come stay with me for a couple days and like I'll never forget that. You know what I mean? And so to like Have this community and all these people it's just it's phenomenal and um, I'm very lucky That I got to hang out with like great people. That's lovely to hear man And fairly to house as well Um, yeah, nah, this is the man. He's about yeah for a hundred percent I've just got a couple more questions. We're nearly done. So yeah, even though first contact entertainment has closed down last just last month You and some others. I don't know the details there or how many or whatever But from first contact you've already kind of teamed up with strange games and some Sorry some some capacity To help out with the honor and juicy d-day enhanced So what can you tell us about this kind of role you're doing or can you tell us about the other first contact entertainment people? Are there you know what? Yeah, we've got some artists over there. We have some programmers We're working on uh, dylan may be helping out with some audio to really get those done sounds on him better I'm not sure yet. Well, he's still kind of chatting. We're still kind of figuring everything out. But uh, yeah, I Reggie reached out to me The first day and was like, hey, I might have a cool opportunity for y'all He's like I've been just busting my ass on this game It's me and like this one of the guy in the netherlands And we just haven't really had like a solid Art team or guys that kind of know what they're doing on this and I've always wanted to grow the studio And this seems kind of like a really great opportunity to work with some people that know what they're doing Know the space and I was like, yeah And I mean, I know the guys are looking for jobs like it felt good to be able to like Get a handful of people work immediately. You know what I mean? Like I felt great It was great that reggie reached out like it was like a godsend of like Oh man, it's all stress and I was like, oh, here's a guy that like wants a handful of guys to come Help him and is willing to like pay and is like honestly reggie's a great guy Like he's a super super easy going fella. He's super into the community He's just really cares about his title really cares about his games really cares about what he's doing He's been at it since like 2009. So it's not like this is new to him. He's been doing since like 360 days and uh, we're really excited to kind of juice a little more like juice into the Projects and into like what he's got going on and kind of seeing where it can go from there Um, and yeah, it's just really exciting stuff.  It wasn't like some my boss said the other day It's not like like my my little pony reached out to me. It was like we really want you to work here Maybe like oh, I mean I got nothing to do. So I guess I'll do that It was very much so like oh hell. Yeah, like you're doing really cool things Yeah, it was perfect fit like you're it's basically like battlefield in br Without destruction, you know, I mean it's 64 players tanks Jeeps like multiple different classes multiple different weapons and Whatever we can do to help polish that up and get kind of what he calls the jankiness the community calls The jankiness out of that will be really great. Um, because in I think in its bones It's a really really fun game and it it does something that I don't believe a whole lot of other games offer And I don't think any other games offer on playstation vr Some really really excited to get dd out there and kind of hear the feedback from it We have a creator event coming up next saturday. Uh, and it's kind of like I don't know if this will come out before then or not Um, so yeah, we're gonna have a bunch of people that Kind of make content and do this and that get a little early look at the game Give us some feedback on the game They'll be able to have videos ready for launch if they want to and I really want to try to get as much a big thing that I really enjoy when I was doing the channel Was kind of getting early access to games because it could help your channel get a little kick Um, and I would love my big thing as I told reggie is I would want to work with a lot of smaller and medium-sized creators They don't want to just go for like the big guys because like yeah, they're cool And yeah, that's like advertising and this and that but I think we should really like use our position to kind of raise other smaller creators up and Give them chances that like maybe they're not in the like meta meta creators program or maybe they can't reach out to the devs or Most devs are just too busy. It's not that they don't want to work with them It's just they don't have a guy like me on their payroll to be able to do all that work And they don't even have the option to get someone like me on their payroll to do all that work and to reach out and get everybody Um, and so I'm really excited about like doing stuff like that and just kind of like helping the overall community creators to developers All that just push the medium man like in my opinion vr is the future for games There's no if and to buts about it It's just we need the friction to get a little more down And uh, is there a release date for an inducy or are you able to say yes? Uh, I can't say, uh, but it is soon. So that's fun coming this month Um, probably get a release date out there fairly soon And it'll be exciting and I'll share more news and probably see some updates on social Yeah, it's right around the corner. All right, perfect last question then So if that wasn't enough, you're also you're also making a return to your youtube channel You've just released your first video in a long time And you've mentioned that you'd like to make content that is developer focused Can you tell us more about the direction you're going to be taking your channel in? Will it be picking up where you left off or will it be a new kind of experience?  Like I know everybody's got to make a dollar But like let's say if I'm dealing with like assassins creed vr or something. Yeah I'll charge them an arm and a leg But if I'm dealing with someone like reggie from strange games or 95 percent of the developers out there like They shouldn't have to be paying out the ass just to like get a little help Like we're still in a phase where I think that like there should be a lot more love than the community And yeah, someone's got to make a couple dollars here and there but you don't got to hit them hard And so my thought I'm thinking about kind of getting into more like working with other creators working with developers and Kind of helping them get their games to better places before they launch So that there isn't that like I've noticed that like if you hit a rough if you can get a beta in there, that's fine But if you can get a rough launch, it's it's really really hard to come back from that So if I can do anything to like help developers if it's just a matter of me playing their game early Giving them feedback based on everything that I've seen in the industry and that I've seen from other games And like that's happy enough to me But if I can get other creators in there If I can get up their vr players in there If we can get if we can get a bunch of people to help them test their games because that's another one A lot of these people can't afford to like hire an outsource qa team They have maybe themselves and a couple buddies or this and that so I'm kind of thinking of like doing like a frank creator program um In the future. I don't quite know what it's going to be yet, but uh I I feel like that there's a big space for that especially because like although like Everybody's got to make a buck. I'm in this for the passion. I'm in this because I love it I'm not in this to like if I wanted to make money like as a lot of people will tell you I wouldn't be doing vr and spatial right now maybe 10 20 years from now But right now it's still like early days for that and I want to be doing I want to help I want to be a be a positive voice for the community and for the medium overall And it was just something I really really missed on the channel and just watching a lot of other channels Like you you're not that you know, I mean you're on top of your stuff You're kind you're open to this but it I get the vibe that like It feels like it's gotten to this like there's lots of money exchanging hands And there's less in it for the passion and more in it for like the dollars And I want to make sure that my emphasis is that like I'm in this for the passion I'm in this for the long run I'm in this because I care about these people and these devs and now spending more times of vr devs and Just game devs in general and kind of understanding the mindset and the heart and the soul behind the people that work on your games It's like a no-brainer to offer as much help as I can to any developer and any creator that reaches out to me because That's what I that's what I'd want to do in life. It's like when you see people like Drake funny enough I slowly became the larger Drake fan over the past years because like I just can't help it like That's just I think there's a similar vibe to that But something lovely about him as an artist is he brings up smaller artists, you know what I mean like And I I I really respect people that do that Because you don't have to yeah, you don't you could just make music for yourself or Make movies or make commercials and sign up for things and just get paid. He'd be fine. He ain't got to do that He has absolutely no nothing that's telling me he's got to do that, but instead Chose him to like work with other people and like that. I think that's the vibe. I My whole emphasis is just happy kindness like I just want to be kind and loving and to any and everyone and like That's about it man. So I'm really excited to see where the channel can go and Where we're going from here. I'm looking forward to see this. Yeah. Yeah All right, so is there anything else you'd like to say before we wrap it up? Well other than just like be kind and loving and Care for your family and care for your friends and like the usual stuff You know, I mean like at the end of the day nothing matters except for like Love and the people that you love and everything can be achieved with that power Um, and don't go to the dark side and try to stay positive and I'm all that fun stuff. Um, but yeah, that's about it man. I really enjoyed chatting with you for a while I went longer than I expected. Yeah, I'm sorry. It took so much of your time Ah, dude, I I made sure to plan my day out for that. So we're good. Thank you very much I do appreciate that and I'll have it out soon enough. I hope With the next day or two. Okay. All right lads and ladies. I hope you enjoyed this interview with frank He was so kind enough to take time of his day to do it with me That is it for this video. I'm going to end it here Thanks for watching consider hitting the like subscribe all that usual youtube and shies as frank knows all too well And I'll see you in the next one. Goodbye for now


Hello, and welcome to another episode of Into the Issues. I'm Steve Pappas. I will be your host. My guests today are Neil Van Dyke, who is the search-and-rescue coordinator for the Vermont Department of Public Safety, right? Correct. Okay. There's a lot of different variables there. And Brian Lindner, who is the representing the Waterbury Backcountry Rescue, right? That's great. You're the team leader. Thank you both for being here. We've been going back and forth on this for a long time trying to get everybody in the same room, and the reason I had wanted to have you on back in the summertime was when there was an incident in Worcester where on Worcester Mountain where there was somebody who had broken their ankle and there was difficulty in finding the right people to get up the mountain at the time and it raised some issues for us at the newspaper, and I thought, well, this is actually a really interesting topic for all Vermonters to kind of get behind, not just central Vermonters, because you all are dealing with some really interesting kind of scenarios and challenges, and in its important work that has changed a lot probably over the over the years, even though search-and-rescue by itself is, you know, pretty straightforward, but talk a little bit, Neil, if you would, about what it is that you do and why do we need this in Vermont? Well, Vermont is pretty well known for its outdoor recreation activities, a beautiful place to go out hiking, skiing, snowmobiling, snowshoeing, and, you know, all of those unfortunately activities at times can, people can get lost or injured, and there's certainly been a demonstrated need for a response capability in the state to be able to provide a public safety service to those recreational users. And this is an extension of what we already see as rescue. I mean, every community kind of has its own, but the specialty is here that you all have a certain skill set that allows you to perform certain duties, as you say, kind of out in the field. Right, exactly. So I think my own background as a volunteer would kind of be an example of that, where I was a member of the Stowe Fire Department and the Ambulance Service in Stowe, and we had a couple of incidents in the late 1970s where people had bad accidents up in Smuggler's Notch, and the response at that point was to call the local fire department and the Ambulance Service, and at that time there really wasn't any specialized training that was available to deal with working safely in those environments. So in that case, that community got together and created what is now Stowe Mountain Rescue to be able to more safely and effectively deal with those types of emergencies. But for many, many years it relied on typically fire department or ambulance service response. Yeah. Brian, it always comes down to everybody, focuses on response time in these cases, but we're talking about response time into some pretty rural kind of often very difficult spaces, and you know, the challenges of that are obviously you're vast, but what is kind of the demand that your teams are seeing in making these rescues? I mean, you're talking about woods, you're talking about way back in the woods. I think to a certain extent we are up against the public's perception that as soon as they call 911, a helicopter and paramedics are going to be immediately dispatched, and in Vermont unfortunately, that's not the case.  It's really measured in hours. How did you get involved in wanting to do this? I got involved because as an EMT and Waterbury ambulance, we found in the mid-90s that we were being called to some of these rescues where the fire department would empty out the fire department to go up the mountain sides and we park any ambulance at the base waiting for them to bring a patient down so that we had a lack of ambulance and lack of fire protection during these long rescues. So we started looking at Waterbury Ambulance of forming our own team sort of separate from the ambulance to do the rescues, leaving the ambulance in-house, leaving the fire department in-house until the patient is at the trailhead. And how many of these teams are there around the state? There are probably eight to ten, maybe a dozen. Many of them are, as Brian described, embedded into local fire departments or EMS agencies. But where they've been able to do specialized training so that they really have the equipment and training to be able to respond. And Brian, you're a team leader and active in it and you are as well, Neil, but you are in your role as the state coordinator. You're overseeing kind of what all these teams are doing, not the dispatching, per se, but you're keeping track of how many members there are and I'm assuming helping to coordinate them on training? So my role really is, as a state employee, to probably best be described as be the interface between the public or state sort of statutory responsibility and coordinating with these local responses, which are typically kind of first on scene. And we just feel it's really important to have a coordinated response so that each organization knows what's expected of the other and it says we're fortunate in Vermont because we're such a small state. So we all kind of get to know each other, which makes things go much more smoothly. So a lot of my time has been on outreach, helping to provide training and resources to some of these local folks as well as working to enhance the state's capabilities to respond. And these teams are typically centered around mountain bases, essentially. Right. Yeah, I would say that's that's definitely true. That tends to be, if you look at sort of a plot graph of where we get these instance in Vermont, it's pretty clearly along the spine of the Green Mountains. So that's where most of the recreation takes place. Most of the instance take place. And for a volunteer organization to be sustainable, there really has to be enough activity for them to keep interested and keep their skills up. So we have seen some teams that have tried to kind of start up in some of the more peripheral areas. And typically they don't last just because they can go a year or two without actually getting called. So it's hard to sustain. Brian, how many folks are on your team? Officially, we have about 25 and how does it work? If somebody from Waterbury wanted to be part of the team, how do they go about that? What kind of training do they need? And do they need anything before they even come to you? Well, in Waterbury, we're looking for someone that either works in town or lives in town. It's got to be one of the two. And then they can go to the Waterbury Ambulance website and fill out an application there. And while we like to have EMTs, that's not really a requirement because we need what we're really looking for is people experienced in the back country, experienced in hiking, experienced in working in the dark so that when we go out, they're ready for, because most of our rescues are at night time, for example, we need them experienced in being able to go out there. And if we can get them up to the EMT level at some point, that's a bonus. You jumped ahead to one of my questions about most common instances are probably at night. Is there a time of year when you see more instances than others? So we do keep statistics on that. And the highest volume of calls is in the summer and fall. And I think it's strictly a direct correlation to the number of people who are out there recreating. So yes, we see more July, August, September, even into October. And then we'll get another bump in a good snow season with people that are outdoors in the winter. But definitely the summer is busier. Certain kinds of... Well actually, let's differentiate. There's a difference between search and rescue. Let's talk a little bit about that. Sure. So in Vermont, we use the term search and rescue kind of generically to mean a lot of different things. But it is defined in Vermont statute in Title 20 as persons who require, who are lost or missing in the backcountry or motories or waters of the state. So as far as the kind of jurisdiction and responsibility goes, there is a distinction between search, somebody who's lost or missing, and somebody who may require emergency medical care who's in the backcountry. In many states, those jurisdictions are the same. So if you go to New Hampshire, the Department of Fish and Game, the Game Wardens over there are responsible for both of those in Vermont at Split. So in Vermont, the Department of Public Safety has jurisdiction and responsibility for those who are lost or missing. And then people who require medical service but are in a known location falls to the local level. So either a local search and rescue team or local EMS agency or FAR department. So falling back on the instance when I opened the show, I was talking about somebody in this young woman in Worcester who had broken her ankle on the mountain. It was clear that the injury was severe enough that they didn't have to find her but needed the assistance to get her down. And the part of the problem was, one, the time of year, I believe it was hard to get whatever the local, I must say, Worcester, Worcester crew to the trailhead. And two, nobody on the trailhead, nobody from the crew felt that they could actually make the hike up to get her. And somebody else, so one of the backcountry teams had to be called to conduct the rescue. And as you were saying, Brian, that is a response time of hours. That's not a response time of something instant. And do the local departments, can they just, or should they just be yielding and saying, that's backcountry rescue, search and rescue. We probably shouldn't even take that if it's at a certain point on the mountain. I can speak to it in Waterbury, for example, where we have a memorandum of understanding of the fire department that when one of these calls come in, it automatically goes to Waterbury backcountry team so that we are then responsible for that response and the fire department stays in place for fire protection. They don't attempt to do these rescues anymore, like they used to back in the 90s, for example. I think it becomes a more challenging question in a community where you don't have an established search and rescue response like you have in Waterbury and Stowe and some other communities. So I think it's a good question. I don't think there's a simple answer to that in some situations. If the subject isn't too far into the woods, local fire and EMS, they're there quickly. If they have some minimal level of training, they may be able to deal with the response, but I think it's a very good point that they need to understand their limits because we have seen situations where there's been a considerable delay when the initial responders get there and it takes them a lot to figure out that it's really above their capability. Ideally, that would sort of all be thought through and preplanned beforehand as to who's the closest resource who are we going to call. What are our capabilities realistically and what aren't they? Well, one of the other challenges that we're seeing, not just in Vermont but nationwide, is that a lot of these volunteer departments are not seeing the kind of numbers that they used to have. So just by the sheer ability to get people to the scene is probably pretty tricky. Are you seeing that changes in outdoor activity, for example? There's backcountry skiing, there's always been the hiking, but now we're seeing trail running and we're seeing kind of different kinds of sport than maybe we've seen in the past and I'm assuming that with that comes different kinds of demands on the trails and probably different kinds of injuries, maybe, I don't know, more severe without going into the gory details. Has there been an evolution in that or is the person who gets lost or the person who gets hurt, is it usually just a plain old accident or misjudgment and it's not, they were running too fast, you shouldn't have jumped over the crevasse kind of a thing. Well, interestingly, the numbers don't show, I think the numbers do not reflect the increase in outdoor participation that we're seeing. So for example, one of the few growth areas in the ski industry is backcountry skiing. I mean, if you look at sales of equipment and the growth of different backcountry ski areas and zones that are being developed in Vermont, but we really haven't seen a corresponding increase in search and rescue incidents. Not that there aren't any, but sometimes I find a little bit surprising. Mountain biking is another example, so certainly some people fall and get hurt and injured, but it seems to be less than one might expect. So the vast majority of the incidents that we deal with still are hikers. That's the biggest number. If we have a really good ski season, we'll have quite a few incidents with skiers, but they're typically what we refer to as side country skiers, so people who are left-accessed going skiing in a ski area and then ski out of bounds and get in trouble. So certainly a little bit, we're seeing more people participating in more activities, but not to the degree that one might expect, which is a good thing. Yeah, I was going to say that. It probably means that people are actually showing some common sense of being responsible. As far as the searches go, that often is the case of somebody being separated, somebody misjudging the time of the day. You were talking, Brian, about nighttime rescue. That has to be, I would think, the biggest challenge, and especially in a wintertime situation, probably the most panicking kind of rescue that you could be doing. Is that true? I don't know if I would describe it as being panicky, but... Well, you're not panicky. Everybody else around is panicky. Yeah, because we can't be panicky. Nighttime is definitely a challenge, and that's the vast bulk of our calls. For example, we've had 14 this year, only one was started and ended in daylight. But nighttime, that's when we operate. And that's usually hikers? Almost exclusively hikers. This year, for example, yes. Talk a little bit about, so these teams are made up of volunteers for the most part, right? Yes, certainly the local teams are volunteers at the state level. We have some paid folks that do it. But yes, the vast majority of search and rescue work in Vermont is done by volunteers, which is true in most states. So, Brian, how does it work with your team? Do you, even though you're volunteers, there have to be costs associated with this and training? How is what you do essentially funded? For Waterbury, it's privately funded. It's a private nonprofit corporation. Now, the municipalities of Waterbury, Duxbury, and Moortown in the last year have started contributing towards the ambulance. The ambulance trustees gives the back country team an annual budget. And that's how we're funded, plus through donations. And I believe that's the model for most of them around the state. Yes, either private, as Brian said, or many of them are also actually municipal. So they're part of the town government, so either falling under the kind of purview of the fire department, perhaps, which could be a municipal organization. I would say, typically, they also get some funding from the town, but also rely on private fundraising. Do you get anything for rescuing somebody? We have a slip that we give them, or their relatives, that says we're an all-volunteer organization. We're supported through donations, small percentage, reasonable percentage make donations. The majority probably do not. But that's definitely one way that we try and raise funds. I was just going to say it really varies. Some organizations do formal fundraising efforts. Others rely on donations. Brian and I were just talking before the show. There was a family that got lost skiing at Matt River 17 years ago. They send a donation every year to all of the organizations that were involved for the last 17 years. That can be very gratifying that you really realize you've made an impact on people's lives and that they appreciate the effort that folks have gone to. On the other hand, the reality is some people, you'll spend 12 hours dragging out of the woods and they get up, get in their car, drive away, and never get a thank you from them. So that's the exception, fortunately. So there's been this perennial debate argument that maybe we should, as a state, as I'm assuming it would be your department, should charge folks to be rescued. Is that a legitimate debate? I think it's not an uncommon debate to have. It takes place all over the country. I think different jurisdictions have different takes on it. For the most part, I think the position of search and rescue folks, whether either paid professional or volunteer, is that they are generally not supportive of charging for the service that they view it as being sort of a basic public safety, just like you don't get charged.  But the fear is that we don't want people to delay in calling for help for fear of getting a big bill. That's kind of the argument from the search and rescue perspective because the longer things go, the more things are delayed. And generally, the poorer the outcome. So we would rather find out sooner than later, not have people worried about whether they're going to get a big bill and we'll deal with the costs in other ways. So you get the call. Chances are somebody who has been out doing what they're doing is calling you from their cell phone. Two questions there. One is, most people are out hiking to get away from their cell phones, right? But it's also a pretty valuable tool now because it's got so much technology in it with GPS and being able to track. And questions twofold, can it be trusted for what you do? Are you getting an accurate reading of where somebody is? And should people actually be carrying cell phones or smartphones with them when they hike? Well, it's a double-edged sword. It definitely has its advantages. I think it also gives people a certain percentage, a false sense of security. Where we find the cell phone to be most helpful is if they say, for example, they're on Hunger Mountain and we're talking to them and we've got a really good signal in certain ways because of experience, we know generally where they probably are. And it's even more true on camel's hump and I'm sure it is all around the state. The same thing. The strength of their signal in a way gives us a solid clue as to where they are because often they have no clue. That is very interesting. Everyone complains about the cell service in Vermont. That may be the one area where it's like, well, it's a weak signal so we know. Or a strong signal, I guess. But go ahead. So I think it's a good question. I think my feelings about it have changed over time. And I think in large part that's because the technology has changed. And I think telling somebody not to take a phone when they go hiking is kind of silly. They're going to take it anyway. And I think the pros far outweigh the contents. I agree with Brian that there are times when we feel like people are underprepared because they have the safety net in their hand. And they know that help is only a 911 call away. And I think before that technology was available, people tended to think a little bit more about what they need to take to be self-sufficient. Having said that, the ability to get location information much of the time to find out from them what the problem is. So from a medical treatment standpoint, knowing if somebody has a broken femur, a strained ankle, or is feeling chest pain can save us a lot of weight in terms of what we have to carry in and understanding what the urgency is and the speed required and how many people it's going to take. So definitely a valuable resource. As far as kind of the ethical question of being in the wilderness, what our recommendation always is is take your phone with you and put it on airplane mode. So for one thing, you're not being distracted by texts and phone calls. You can use it as a camera and it preserves battery because one of the things that we find is that as Brian said, these calls come in late in the day. People have probably been posting pictures on social media talking to their friends or in areas where there's poor cell coverage, it really burns through your battery and you're just trying to find the signal. So put it on airplane mode. If you need to use it, turn it on and turn it back off again because battery life is a big issue for us. I would say more often than not somebody's phone goes dead between the time they call for help and by the time we're able to get to them and that's very frustrating on our part. So we've got a couple minutes left. What are the things that everybody should have with them now and I bet they're the same things they have always been. But let's see. Brian, I'll start with you. Well, they need to start out by knowing where they've parked their car. It's not the trailhead, at least the town. They need extra clothing. Even when it's 95 degrees, hazy hot and humid, it's going to be cold by the time we get to them. They need food, they need water. The rule in our team is you need to be able to survive 24 hours and come out intact and when we all hike, that's the rule that we abide by. As Brian said, many of these calls could be avoided if somebody had something as simple as a headlamp. The number of calls that we get that I just got dark, I can't see my way down, I think I may have gotten off the trail and really all we end up doing is walking up the trail and walking them back out again. We had an instant up on Hunger Mountain a couple of years ago where somebody went up to see the sunset. That was the intent of their hike on Mount Hunger and didn't bring a flashlight with them. So it's like, what happens when you watch the sunset? Well, the sun goes down, it gets dark. And then we have a response of taking people away from their families at night at dinner time and hiking up the mountain bringing them back down. So a lot of things could be avoided just with kind of common sense. The other two things I would add which isn't so much bringing things with them but telling somebody where you're going and when you expect to be back because to get a call from a family member that a friend went out back on his skiing or hiking and hasn't come back yet, if they don't know where they went, we have chased all over the state looking for people's cars trying to figure out where they are. And that's just, you know, not good use of everybody's time. Well, gentlemen, thank you. One more quick thing. Is there a central website people can go to to get information about backcountry search and rescue? So we have, there is a website called Hikesafe that is a joint program. It actually started in New Hampshire with fishing game in the White Mountain National Forest and the state of Vermont has kind of bought into that and participates in that program. And there's a lot of really good information about kind of hiking safely and some resources on where to go for trail information and that type of thing. And I would say in Vermont the other great resources, the Green Mountain Club, so either calling or going to their website, a lot of great information there as well. Great. Well, thank you, Neil Bandake and Brian Linder. I appreciate your time today. It's been really interesting. Thanks, Steve. And thank you for watching another episode of Into the Issues. Look forward to presenting another show to you again soon. Thanks for watching.