We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. So welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show, behind closed doors with myself, Jackie Jones and the wonderful, the always wonderful Mr. Bob Cook. And this is episode 128. And we're going to be doing part three and then part four of the best books that you think. Book recommendations. Book recommendations. That's the, and of course, you know, I always think about this, Jackie, that people could always text in books they'd like us to review and what they think is their most important psychotherapy book or even just a psychotherapy book they like or even a counseling book they like. I've read quite a lot. So I probably, once I've got them, but I'd certainly like to hear from the viewers, views the wrong word, the people who are listening or on my YouTube, you know, the YouTube channel and what books influence them in their lives and their practice. And certainly, I'm more than happy to do a review of it. Absolutely. Yeah. It doesn't have to be TA. It could be anything, any of the different disciplines. Yeah. And of course, we can do that, can't we? I mean, I quite like that idea because it would include, you know, what people like themselves. That's it. Because you know me, Bob, I'm not very academic and I don't like really deep and heavy books. So a lot of the books that I have are either like, you know, information books like TA Today that I use for when I was training or the more from the person's perspective of something. Okay. Okay. And people are watching me on YouTube. That's not people in podcast. I've just come back from a three mile walk and it's, you know, I've got a bit hot. So hopefully I'm not perspiring too much. But please pardon me. Okay.  You're glowing. Let's put it that way. That's what women are. We don't, we don't sweat. We just glow. So the first book that we're doing is about live scripts, Scripps People Live. Oh, you've got it there. Claude Steiner. Yes. The one thing that comes to mind when I think about Claude Steiner is that he did the warm fuzzy, the story around warm fuzzy, which is actually in this book. Oh, yeah. So for the people who perhaps aren't TA therapists and don't know the story of warm fuzzers and cold pricklies, do you want to just say what you mean by a warm fuzzy? For me and the way that I took it, it was lovely. It's like a fairy tale and it's all around positive and negative strokes. And there's a witch that comes into the village and she kind of talks people into not giving warm fuzzies, but to give them cold pricklies instead. But it's all, I think the metaphor behind it is that we should all give positivity to other people and positive recognitions because we don't run out of them and it impacts on the other person and it impacts on us when we give them as well. It's just a nice story, I thought. Yeah, no, I think it's a really good story. And one of my favourite shops of all time when I was growing up was Woolworths. Oh, yes. Taking me back to the youth now. And Woolworths in the 1970s created warm fuzzies. I feel it. Yeah, yeah. And I remember in the 80s going to Woolworths and buying lots of warm fuzzies.  But they're very smooth to touch. And I used to give them to my clients. Bob, we need to revamp that. We need to come up with warm fuzzies. I just love the concept of it. I really do. Yeah. I used to buy them and give them to my clients in 86, 87, 88. Woolworths went bust, I think, in the 90s. But I was so pleased to find these warm fuzzies, a unit of positive social recognition. What a wonderful thing for you to do. I envisaged them to be like a pom-pom. Yeah, a little pom-pom. Yeah.  We don't rest from the book. Well, yeah, in a way. Thorns Steiner, who wrote that book in 1974, which you've just gotten your hands there, Jackie. He was a very interesting man. He was what is called in the TA sort of circles, the prodigal son of Eric Byrne. And Eric Byrne was the originator of transaction analysis. Yeah. Now, Claude Steiner, I'm not sure where they met, but Eric Byrne took Claude Steiner. And I don't know how I think Eric Byrne would be in his 50s, 60s, and Steiner much younger, of course.  So Claude Steiner went off and did that. And he was very, very influenced by Eric Byrne. Eric Byrne died in 1970. He was the originator of transaction analysis. And he sort of, he was, Claude Steiner wrote this book anyway, Scripps People Live, 1974. I want to say it's a homage to Eric Byrne, but certainly it was dedicated to Eric Byrne. Yeah. And it covers lots and lots of things about the script, which is one of the basics of transactional analysis that we have a life script and it's formed before the age seven. Yeah. I just find it good to dip in and out of again. It's not a book that I've read from cover to cover. No, but that book particularly is famous, not just because Claude Steiner wrote it, but he talked about different types of Scripps. So the idea of script, as you mentioned, Eric Byrne's idea of script anyway, is that it's an unconscious life plan, which you create in childhood with the beginning, middle and end. So it's like a life plan. Now Eric Byrne did, you're quite right. Eric Byrne, like Freud, talked about that we developed these unconscious life plans at a really basic level, like, I'm okay, you're okay, I'm not okay, other people are okay, at a very, very rudimentary level before the age of five and six. Now Steiner in his book carries on that same thing. And he also talks about different types of Scripps, mindful Scripps, banal Scripps, our Matic Scripps that we actually start developing in life. He also talks about script questionnaire. It's a very good for people who want to know or have an introductory idea of what Scripps are, and also very good for the students of TA to look a little bit more in depth of the idea of Scripps. It still is probably, I think, I don't know if you disagree with me or not, but I think it's still probably the most accessible book in terms of reading and introduction into Scripps that we still have in the literature of the TA world. Yeah, and it's extensive, the stuff that's in here, I'm just looking at the contents now. It's extensive, do you know what I mean, the information that's in here. It goes right into people's Scripps, Matic Scripps, mindless Scripps, how they are created, you know, how they're played out in life. Yes, it's a very extended book, isn't it? Scripps questionnaire is that Scripps Matrix is in there as well, so it's very good on two parts. For people wanting to understand the concept of Scripps for the first time, because it's a very accessible, easy book that's written, and also I think it's a very interesting book for people who want to take the idea of Scripps and the idea of Scripps Matrix further. Yeah, and again it's just a basic, it's the basis to build on and to use in therapy. Oh, you're right, and I think, like, yeah, I think probably true, that if you look at or ask most people who are TA therapists, what books they have, the two or three, probably they will have bought before others, is games people play, which is a very famous Eric Byrne book, and they'll probably have Scripps people live on their bookshelf as well, and that's because not only has it been very straightforward for people to understand, but if we look at the four cornerstones of transaction analysis model as a whole, you've got ego states, you've got transaction analysis proper, you've got games, and you've got Scripps. Yeah. So people want to really understand that one of those cornerstones of transaction analysis, this probably is the book for them with regards to Scripps. Yeah. I mean, you've got it, haven't you on your bookshelf? Absolutely, yeah, and it's something I was, I was talking to some people over the weekend on a course that I was running, and I was talking about Scripps, and it's something that they'd never heard of before. No. Yeah. What sort of work, what sort of workshop were you doing? It was the Equine Guided Therapy that we do, so it was just like the general public that were coming in, that obviously I was introducing to some transactional analysis stuff, and I spoke about, you know, the PAX system, parent ego, parent, adult and child, but then went on to look at, you know, I was Scripps-y stuff, but they'd never heard of it. Wow. Yeah, what I was doing was talking about, you know, our life story and called it that rather than our script, and that, you know, we, we come up with this, we make these decisions that are really young age, and yet we're still living our life by them as adults. Yeah, there are, another way of looking at it is, it's like a frame of reference. Yeah. In another language I was thinking, we create a frame of reference, often as in terms of survival, if you like, or as a way of making sense of the world about ourselves and other people, and we tend to follow that frame of reference, that life story, that life script, and enacted out in the people we have around ourselves, relationships, our professional life, and if it serves us well, that's absolutely fine. And sometimes that life story, frame of reference is, needs updating. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what I was saying to them, you know, parts of my life script are absolutely fine, other parts of mine, I want to change. And I think the reason why it came up and why I started talking about it, was because you know, the ladies on this particular course were pushing themselves out with their comfort zone by being around horses, you know, some of them had bad experiences. So I was saying about, you know, one of the things that we can do when we're stepping out of our script, we feel like we're coming out of our comfort zone, we know what goes on in our script. But when we step out of it, that's sometimes when we can start to feel anxious or have a bit of a wobble. But for me, that's a good thing. As a psychotherapist, when my clients are having a wobble, as I call it, for me, they're stepping out of the script. I'm going to agree with me more. And it's, it's many additions to this book, by the way. But the first edition of 1974, Claude Steiner, Scripts, People Live. If people don't know much about TA, Wanted Introduction to the Idea of what we're talking about here, Live Story, or Script is a good book to read. And for students of TA, it's a good book to take further detail of script and take the idea of script further. So it's one I would really endorse. And it's a book I've had for many, many years on my shelf and dipped into, because it's a bit like a textbook. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's very thorough in how it breaks it down and how it looks at the different scripts. And like you said, there's a relationship script, there's a script for pretty much everything. Yeah. And there's core ones, but he goes into, I like his chapter on hermatic scripts. I like his chapter on mindless scripts. And it certainly is a book I would endorse for anybody interested in psychotherapy in general, and particularly TA. Absolutely. I agree. So it's going to go back up on my bookshelf though. Yeah. And what we're going to be talking about in the next episode is the art and science of relationships. Yeah. Just before, yeah, we are, which is another one of my favourite books. Just on this though, the book about script. What I said was that earlier on in the podcast was that Thord Steiner was what we call in the TA community, Podiglistan of Eric Byrne, and Eric Byrne was the, you know, the creative transactional analyst. And when I was thinking with you, and I probably didn't say to you this either online or offline, I was thinking, what books do we review? And I sent you a lot of books. Now, Eric Byrne himself wrote six central books, but only six, which are the first major book, which is called Transaction Analysis Psychotherapy, Eric Byrne, 1961. Then the book that took TA to Stardom really, which was in 19, which was in, it was in, so in 1964, Games People Play, that really took TA up to Stardom, I think. And a book I really like, his third book, which is Principles of Group Treatment, which talks about how you use TA practically in the clinical sense, which I recommend for anyone who is interested in working practically with TA in a clinical world. Principles of Group Treatment, 1967 by Eric Byrne. These are the lexicon of Eric Byrne's books that makes up the TA theories, if you like. I mean, there's many other books after he died, which have written on TA, but these are the Eric Byrne books. That book, which I've just said, Principles of Group Treatment is a fantastic book, because in that book he starts talking about how to use the method, the practicalities of TA for the first time in a clinical room. Before that was Games People Play, and then there's the major theories of TA in his first book in 1961. But after Principles of Group Treatment, two other books came along, just before he died. He died in 1970 on Carmel Beach, if I had double heart attack. Just before he died, he'd finished off a book on script, actually, which was called What Do You Say After You Say Hello? It's a very easy book to read, and it's about script. It's all about script theory, very different from, of course, Stanley's book I've just talked about. Then he wrote another book, which had finished off posthumously, if that's the word, called Sex and Human Loving. That came out in 1970. Three quarters of it was written. When he died, he just finished What Do You Say After You Say Hello, but he was writing simultaneously this book on relationships, which he calls Sex and Human Loving. Then he died, I think it was three quarters away, and then it was finished off by other people. Those are the major Eric Byrne five books, and then there was another book, I think it was 1963, but I never actually, I've opened the first few pages, but as I'm not into TA and organizations particularly, I didn't read it. It was called Power Dynamics of Organizations. I've not read that particularly. All those books were written. Steiner, when he wrote this major book on script, he pays homage. I don't know if it's in that book, but certainly an article I've written of how these lexicon of books that Eric Byrne wrote influenced his life, but I would say the best script book, isn't the book What Do You Say After You Say Hello written by Eric Byrne, is this book. I think even the, it's dedicated to Eric Byrne. Oh, Eric Byrne, watching down will be so proud of course, Steiner. Yeah, it says, I dedicate this book to Eric Byrne, Teacher, Friend, Father, Brother. That says it all. Yeah, so please think about buying it, or at least looking it up on Google, it's a fabulous book. Okay, so the next one we're doing is the Art and Science of Relationships in the next podcast, Bob. Yeah, now this book. Don't talk about this book. I will wait till the next podcast. Okay, excuse me, off. You'll have to wait for the next time. Yes, listening for the next one. Until next time, Bob. Speak soon. You've been listening to The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.


Hi everyone, in this video I'm going to share with you the top 10 products to dropship this January. So before we jump to that list, make sure to hit that subscribe button so you can always stay up to date with what's going on in the dropshipping world. Our first product of the day is something called a reverse umbrella. Now what do I mean by reverse? Well it's actually a pretty innovative product so instead of closing the umbrella in a way that you pull it towards yourself and maybe get yourself a little wet in the process, you actually close it by pushing it in the opposite direction of yourself and then it kind of flicks the water away from you. My advice for this one when you're listing it, people love different styles, patterns and colors so you're going to want to list a bunch of variations when it comes to this. You can even see here this person, this listing on Amazon has I don't know like 25 different oh 37 different colors to go with and you could also tell that it's a pretty popular product. There are 20,000 ratings over here so I definitely highly recommend this one. Our second product of the day is headlamps. You might be thinking oh where are you right now? What website is this? Well actually we're within the Autodesk system. There's actually a new products research system within Autodesk where you could look up products and they'll find a bunch of different sources for you and put them all together here so you could list a bunch of different variations from different sources and just easily import the product to your stores. It's a very simple and easy to use and I highly recommend you start using it for your own product research as well because it will definitely save you a lot of time. So yeah this product is definitely good for people that love to go camping, people that love to build, it's good for workers. You have variations that even go on top of hard hats like hard helmets for builders as well so it's definitely a cool product to go with and you have definitely a range in prices, you've got cheaper versions and ones that are heavy duty. I'd recommend listing within both price ranges because then you could attract a larger audience of buyers. Our third product of the day is paintbrush sets. So you could find this over here on Target and basically paintbrush sets are good for artists, they're good for children. There isn't a general paintbrush set that is good for all. Usually each paintbrush set is specific to what kind of materials they're working with be it acrylics, oil paints, things like that. I'm not an artist so I can't go off listing all the different types of things they have but there's definitely a lot of different paint brushes for different types of art. So definitely make sure to list a bunch of variations that you can see here. Grab 10 or 20 something of the sort and see what works for you and as for the children ones as well you also have a bunch of cool sets to go with and in there you can consider how much is coming in each set are you getting them you know a giant set or something that's a bit more compact that they could take to school. Our fourth product of the day is a rechargeable book light. So this product essentially snaps onto either your book itself or to the nearest piece of furniture so people could read in the dark and what's great about it is that it's portable technology you could take this with you and it's very compact. You could also bend the light to show the words on the book however you'd like to adjust it. Over here you can find it on Aliexpress it's a pretty low ticket item and what I'd recommend here is paying attention to the light itself. Are you offering one that only has white light or does it have different color modes as well because I know people that would refuse to read in the dark with a white light because you know that might hurt their vision a little bit. So you want to offer variations that have warm lights or different options for color modes. Our fifth product of the day is the digital tire inflator. This is a pretty convenient product a lot of people like to just have these in the back of their car and it's really trending as you can tell here already a product with 16,000 ratings and it's about a mid range to high ticket item when it comes to safety products that have to do with driving and things like that people sometimes don't like to cheap out and they like to get what they know is secure and will last them a long time. So if you list a higher ticket item you do have the option to make a higher profit margin and that's why I definitely recommend listing within both price ranges. Our sixth product of the day is vanity lights. So over the past year and a half, two years you've been having a lot more people spend time in their homes and we've been seeing a lot more DIY projects and a lot of just general home makeovers because people are just spending a lot more time inside their home. So one of the products that we've seen trending a lot is vanity lights. So you can go over here onto Home Depot and they make it very convenient for you to choose different types. You've got one, two, three lights, four lights. You've got different styles such as modern industrial classic and I definitely recommend you take a look here at all the different options that they offer and you're going to want to offer a lot of different styles because people are different when it comes to their own homes and their own decor. So you're going to want to offer as many styles as possible here so you get Peter to a large audience. Our seventh product of the day is artificial grass puppy pads. This is a great product with in the pet niche really trending and basically this is a potty training pad for your dog and it's pretty cute because it trains them to recognize an outdoor element with where they should relieve themselves. So it's kind of a mental trick as well. So as long as they're going inside as at least they're going on something that looks like grass, which will get them used to that habit once you train them to only go outside. So over here, the thing to consider is different sizes of different dogs. So for smaller dogs like puppies like that one, although so cute, you could you could have much smaller pads like this. But people that are training larger dogs, you're going to need to accommodate for larger sizes. So make sure to have variations within your listing. Our eighth product of the day is a spin mop bucket set. So this is just a house basic. Everyone needs cleaning products. You really can't go wrong with this one. And it's an evergreen product. People are always going to clean their homes. So you have different versions here with different functionalities. Some that offer two mops, some that offer multiple cleaning pads that you could reuse and clean them again. And you also have different sizes of the broom itself. You've got square ones that'll get those corners and you've also got circular ones as well. So you're going to want to look through all of these and consider the different functionalities that you can offer people. All right, our ninth product of the day is a bamboo drawer organizer. So this is a great home organization product. And as you know, as I mentioned before in other videos, home organization is a great niche to go with. And it works really well as it usually comes with a lot of basic products that people usually need in their homes. So here you have organizers for drawers like in your office or organizers for the drawers in your kitchen, where you could put cutlery, knives, things like that. You're going to want to go through the list here and list at least 10 to 20 different variations. And you will definitely see some great sales from this product. Now our 10th and final product of the day is punching bags for kids. So this has been a really trending toy for children lately. It's a mid-range ticket item. So you're making a pretty decent profit margin here. And you've got a bunch of different cool versions that you can go with. Some that are more similar to adult punching bags, obviously a bit lighter so that kids can use them as well. And then you've also got easier inflatable ones that are a bit cheaper, cheaper options to go with and still make a fun toy for kids to play with. A little tip for this product, you might want to upsell it with a few additions like punching gloves or knee pads or anything like that that can go along with this boxing niche. All right, that's it for our top trending products in January. Thank you guys so much for watching. If you want to learn more about that product research system that I mentioned earlier in the video, link will be down below in the bio. Thanks again for watching. Make sure to hit that subscribe button and I'll see you guys in next month's video. Bye.


Sticking with boys ball, Winnie Mac traveling to take on East Grand Forks, Patriots moving the ball. While to start the game, Emilian Kaia finds Hunter Shaput down low who finishes over the defender. Patriots on top early. Later, more great passing, Micah Olson down low to Shaput and he knows what to do with it. The Patriots would keep on rolling, Kaia finds Alec Keeker who buries the triple from the wing, put the Patriots up seven and they wouldn't look back from there. They win by 16, 82-66 over the green wave. If you've enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax deductible contribution to Lakeland Public Television.


So we're here with Cocasso, and who are you? Hello, and welcome. My name is Michael Ryan. I am the Operations Manager here at Cocasso. We are a manufacturer and worldwide distributor for the Cocasso product line. So we have many tablets and netbooks, both running Windows and Android. We also have a full catalog of tablets, smartphones, smartwatches, other wearables and accessories, Bluetooth speakers and headphones. So with your company, when did you start? The Cocasso was founded in 2011, and our pair company Global Phoenix has been in the electronics since the year 2000.  So hello, so who are you? Hi, my name is Alverno Torres. I joined Cocasso five years ago, and my position is Cocasso Director of Sales. My job is to introduce the Cocasso tablets to the mayor company in the U.S. in America. And here we're looking at one laptop right here. One of our newest laptop with the old winner chipset. So this is the A64 laptop running Phoenix OS, and it's a good price, right? It is, we have right now one of the best price in the market that we're going to introduce in America. So all over the U.S. it's possible that people will be able to buy this very affordable laptop for work. This is for work, it's not just for fun, right? Right, it's for both work and play. It's very affordable for any user. So let's try this one, can you hold this one one second? You can show that it can undock, you can open it up. This is using the dual OS. The Alverno A83T octa-core has all these advanced functions right here in the UI. So let's walk around your booth a little bit. Perfect, let's go. So here's all the tablets that you have, and you also have a new tablet over here. This is our eight inch with the new version of Android 7.0. It is slick. It is the color and the slim design that Picasso and Owena have designed for the American marketplace. It is beautiful. It has the latest version of Android 7.0. So that's Nougat, this great fast new Android and the Alverno A64, very fast. The expectation on this tablet in America is to sell millions of this with the best price in America right now. How many tablets do you sell so far? Millions. You already sell millions? Millions, with a chipset or winner. So you are selling in America? In the America. That includes Latin America and USA. So which countries in Latin America? In Latin America, you have the Dominican Republic, you have Paraguay, you have Colombia, you have Costa Rica, you have Haiti. All over Latin America, Picasso and Owena have joined together to get the market share together. And you work, you have connections with all the big change, right? In Latin America, right now, we have connection in Walmart, Latin America, Walmart, USA. And right now, we are working to get the newest version of Android all over the big box store in America. So they can get this new tablet, they can get the laptop and productivity two in one. And not only that, with the best price in America. Best price. Best price. And you have the other products over there, let's go check out the VR. Let's go check that out, thank you. Let's do it, let's go. I'm walking through here. So what are we looking at here? Here we are looking to the future. Here we are looking at the VR. The VR that everybody, got it Mike? Yeah, yeah. So here you have a very affordable all-in-one VR device. Has a head strap. You can wear. Games can be pre-loaded or downloaded. Very easy to use, very fun to play. Why don't I put it on and show you how it works? Yeah, put it on. This is much more affordable than Oculus and HTC Vive, right? Oh, very, you don't need to invest thousands of dollars. The VR comes pre-loaded with pre-game, loaded already, when you can just check in and play, and enjoy yourself. Beside the game, you also have video pre-loaded on the VR. This is the future. Coccasso and all-winner. Very affordable. Already, many different models you have around here. This is like the ones we put the phone, but you also have all-in-one right here. Very many all-in-ones and many devices that just hold the phone, and then you can download any app that you're using. And use the H8 OctaCore and all these different solutions right here. All right, so Coccasso is going to continue doing innovative stuff, right? Absolutely. Only innovating, but Coccasso is trying to take the market on all this different accessory in America, in Latin America, together jointly with all-winner.


Al-Jazeera English reporter, Yuma Alsaid, was live from Gaza City when an Israeli missile struck the tower behind her on October 7.Alsaid screamed and moved away while covering her ears as she heard the impact noise, she then continued to report on the attack's sign. This is when her colleague asked her to take a moment to gather her breath. This happened during a live broadcast for Al-Jazeera English in the hours following Hamas' surprise attack on Israel, the attack represented the biggest and deadliest incursion into Israel since Egypt and Syria launched a sudden assault in an effort to reclaim lost territory in the Yom Kippur war 50 years ago. Witness live what an Israeli air raid looks like on a populated area of Gaza City.


What's up everybody? Jason here for Jasper's casebricks.com We're giving away five spots in NT football two box random teams break with this 2020 mosaic football hobby one pack break number 27 random teams and again guys first we do the break randomize because we're names and teams distribute the hits out of the Hoppy pack of mosaic and at the end of the break will take all 32 customer names randomize them and the top five names I'll win a spot each in the NT football two box half case break So here we go guys. Here's the dice roll. Let's roll the dice Well, I might because we're names and teams that is five to two seven times one two three four five six seven seven times here one two three four five six seven Colts done of the types and again stick to what you got guys Devon McCordy Chase young and guys switch scenes and here we go guys Top five roll it Three and a five this time eight times. Good luck top five get in one Two three four five six seven and Eighth and final time guys. Good luck. Good luck Justin in David Bradley Sean and Bobby There you go after eight times top five get in Five different customer names actually wow.  I'll post up the next one number 20 That's technically the last one, but we do have handful of spots to remaining. Appreciate you guys. Jasper's case breaks calm


I don't have the microphone, if you never mind. This man needs no introduction, but because he has run the vast majority of the work for POSTM for the open media room, in conjunction with Adi and Fran and myself, I'd welcome him in here on the floor. Thank you. Thank you.  So it's Christophe Massio, and he'll be talking about U-Pipe, a very interesting project that we work on as well. So thank you, Kieran. Maybe I should have changed my t-shirt because I'm not the day-room person now, but I'm the company person now, but they told me not to do that in front of the camera, so it was too dangerous. So a new talk about U-Pipe, we already did one last year and the year before, but it will be on a different topic this time. The first question for people who weren't there at the previous year is, what is U-Pipe? So U-Pipe is a young multimedia framework written in C. We started in 2012, so that means we're quite young. We're not as young now, but still quite young compared to similar projects were born in the 1990s. That means we have, of course, a lot fewer modules of your support, but also we have been able to make some educated choice about the technologies of today. So U-Pipe was initiated by my company, Open Head End, and some of my employees, but there are now three supporting companies, including Kieran as well. We used it, and last time I counted seven contributors. The focus of U-Pipe is a bit different from what you can see with VLC or maybe G-Streamer. We focus on reliability and efficiency and above all, compliance. So that means we don't aim at playing any kind of file that's on the internet. If it doesn't comply to the standard it's supposed to comply to, we will say may. We also focus on broadcasting professional applications. Actually, most of the use cases I have today are on the real world, in the real broadcast world, with real customers in the broadcast domain. The license of U-Pipe is MIT and LGPL, so it's not both. Some modules are MIT. The core is MIT, the headers are MIT. The main pipes are MIT. That is what you need to build a pipeline, basically. Duplication, stuff, sources, file source, file sync, UDP, and so on. All of that is MIT. We have some modules that are LGPL. That's mainly the code that deals with the codec format. So what we call the framers in our lingo. And also, some support libraries are also LGPL, like the baby codec. So the binding code is also LGPL. So those of you whether the previous years, what's new, the question is simple. So too long, don't read. We've had a lot of work on the Eventloop API to make it more complete. So now you don't need to call anymore the Eventloop directly from your program. And it's also easy launching P-threads, P-thread workers. We have a nice utility to dump pipeline in graphViz format. So some of the slides we will see later have been automatically generated from U-pipe using graphViz. You'll see that it's quite nice, quite verbose as well. But the legit bindings, I talked about them last year, but it's finally been merged in. So you can now write a U-pipe client using just Lua. And Lua is interesting for that because it abstracts all the ref counting of the structure. Most of our structures are ref counted. But in Lua, Lua takes care of the ref counts and frees automatically the structure you don't use anymore. In C, you have to do it by hand. So that's interesting. In the feature side, we've had people contributing. The third company contributing an HLS client. So some other frameworks have also HLS clients. But we now do have one where you could choose the bandwidth or the variant you want to have. And you can re-multiplex it, repurpose it in a different format. I will show later an example where we repurpose HLS to a transport stream, a UDP transport stream, standard transport stream. We've had some work on H265 as well. So we are able to decode it and support it. Vang supporting the SDI, if you don't know what that means, don't care if you do bad for you. And well, I wanted to release Previz number five. But the work is not finished yet. But we'll probably do that in the next few weeks. And after that, 1.0, we hope. So unlike Previz here, I'm not here to give you an extensive talk on the insides of your pipe and why it's a good pipeline. But I will give you examples of what you can do with your pipe. And I will start with an inventory of all the modules we have for inputs, output theaters, and so on. And then I talk about use cases, typical use cases that are in production today. So the inputs we have, well, some of them are quite standard. Of course, in the broadcast world, we still have specific connections like SDI and ASI. So we support two vendors for that. Natively, inside your pipe, we support, of course, DeFi, UDP, HTTP, and so on protocols. We have a compliant ESDMUX. Compliance is important for us, as I said. We also have an RTPDMUX to be able to read one or several RTP streams from the same program. HLS Client, I talked about it already. I have here MultiCAD directory. It's a bit of a specific format that allows you to record 24-7 streams in chunks and expire all the chunks. So we can also support that with U-Pipe. It comes from a program that's called MultiCAD that's part of the Videran project. Externally, we support TBV format for sources. It's actually a work in progress. Some of the formats may not work at the moment, because there are still adaptations to do. As for the output, well, again, we have hardware outputs from SDI and ASI that have not been merged at the moment, but they exist somewhere on GitHub. So if you look for it, you can ask us and we'll tell you where it is. Natively, we support, as usual, the five UDP RTP. We also support a compliant ESMUX. So that's one of a kind. That's probably the thing that differentiates us most from other projects in that we have a compliant ESMUX. That output stream that are analyzed by a professional analyzer and they say it's okay. So that's quite a good thing. MultiCAD directory again. And we can use also external libraries. So libv format, this time it works. So in production, I have streams to RTMP, ICAST, and other formats using libv format and GLX, Alizar. And we were talking yesterday about Wayland. The man was talking about the Wayland output also that is working on. So inputs and outputs are okay, but what can you do in between? So first, the filters that we have. So internally, natively, we support, well, the standard, the interlaced. Bleeding, bleeding means to take a picture and you bleed it on top of your video, like a logo, with or without transparency. Bleeding also allows us to do mosaic. I will show you later. Crop, we also have the V210 pack and pack assembly optimized functions. If you don't know what it is, good for you. It's some kind of a format output by some SDI cards for 10-bit video. And so it's more compact than the traditional reports on 16-bits, but it's also much harder to read. External libraries, of course, are very useful for filters. Of course, CBD codec provides most of our decoders and encoders. X264 is also an encoder we use a lot. And the traditional software resampled as well. Leavespix is a recent addition that allows us to do resampling without changing the pitch. So it's actually much nicer in the broadcast world where you have to compensate for a drift while you don't hear it, thanks to Leavespix. And we also have bindings to Leaves EVBI, but just for American subtitling system. Another important piece of our project is what we call the framers. So the framers are analog to what EV codec calls the parsers. So that's basically a place where you have the knowledge about the codecs. So that's pieces of code that will parse the codecs tell you this is a frame, this is the head of a frame, this is 25 FPS for a stream, and interpolates the PTS from frame to frame and so on. But in addition to that, so it's not just a parser, but it also acts as what EV codec again calls bitstream filter, that allows you to transform the format, stream format into another. For instance, in X264, if you want to put X264 into TS, you have an annex code, annex B, that is you put a start code in front of your structures. If you want to put X264 in MP4, it's a different format. It's not start code anymore, but it's based on size. And so this transformation is dealt with by the framers in our project. We also have an interesting mechanism in which all of this is actually performed automatically without even you knowing it. So basically the thing talks to the previous pipes and say, I need annex B. And so the framers will say, I don't receive annex B, so I will convert automatically. And we have support for a few video formats, MPEG-2-H264 and now H265, that's a recent addition, a lot of audio formats and subtitling systems, so telotext and DVB subtitles. Why would you use U-Pipe for broadcast world? Well, we have several assets in addition to those I already mentioned. Our clock system is actually one of the major points. As we said yesterday at the meet-up, in U-Pipe we keep actually three clocks for each packet, the original timestamp that was in the stream, reconstructed timestamps, that's always monotonously increasing. So the demux makes sure that it's always monotonously increasing. And that's what we would call the program timestamp. So it's basically the clock of the encoder, the guys that gives you the stream. And we have the system timestamp. So the system timestamp is based on the clock of your hardware, your machine. And so typically for display you would use the system timestamp. Most of the projects only keep the system timestamp, but that means that if you have a drift, sometimes you have a shorter delay or longer delay, and so you normally have 40 millisecond exactly between frames, and that's a problem for some codecs. So that's why we keep all of those clocks. Also, the system timestamp, I said it was the system time, that's not completely true. Usually it's get time of day or clock get time, but there are also use cases where it's interesting to get the clock of hardware clock, like on the ASI or SDI card. And that's the use case we have in reality. So we can replace all of these by any other hardware clock, if you want. In U-Pipe, everything is dynamic. That means the model of U-Pipe is transport stream. So in transport stream, you can have new elementary stream, you can remove another stream at any time, so you can have subtitling, arriving, all of a sudden. So everything has been built in U-Pipe to allow for automatic forking of a new decoder, a new parser, and so on, if needed. If the user wants it, of course. But so the framework allows that. We also have efficient threading. You decide where you put the threads, not our framework. So if you have a thread, let's say AV codec, usually, you want to depot another thread, you just create what we call worker, and it will move to another thread. If you don't want it, for some reason, because for instance, you have a very low latency, you can work with no thread at all. The framework allows that as long as your core is enough, of course, to do all of that. We also have shared buffers with copy and write and zero copy semantics. So now you can see that more and more, but we've had that since 2012. And we were binding, so I already talked about earlier. So that was for the assets and the inventory. Let's see a few real-world examples. So the first example, I'm not sure you will see properly, but let's try. The first real-world example I have is some kind of a player. So it can be a player on your PC, but it can also be an IRD, Integrated Receiver Decoder, like in the professional world. So these graphs have been made by the UPypeDump API that I talked about earlier. So it's actually everything that is spawned when you start a UPype pipeline. So on top of it, you have the source. Actually, it's the worker, the W worker source. So it's in a different thread for performance reasons. And we read from, in that case, from a file. It can be also a FIFO. Then is coming the DSDMux. So DSDMux is the main thread here, is the main pipe, super pipe, we call it, that has a son, that's the program. And two other sons, the program has two other sons, that the audio and that the video. So inside the DSDMux, it says there are a lot of subpipes that do a lot of things like D-Caps, PSD-Caps, Framers and so on. And on the output, you have your frames. And in two different workers for audio and video, you decode it with EV codec. Here is the part of the pipeline that is with subtitles, bleeding subtitles, if you have some, in our case, we don't have. FFMT is something that uses software scale and the interlace to the interlace and well, put it in the correct format. It's RGB in that case, because we are using the DX, and the TRIG-P and play video and play pipe are used for synchronization. So looks and the audio is also on its own thread, that's why it's a worker. I'm not sure if you can see it properly, I don't see it in that distance, but I hope so. Let's take a little bit more complicated example that the program that does a TS will multiply. So we have a TS at the source, so again, in our worker source here, we have a UDP source this time, RTP decaps, and we want to create another UDP and we re-multiplex in between. We could also transcode, but that would add more complexity to the graph, so the graph is already barely readable, so let's try to keep it simpler. So again, after the source, we enter the TS demux. So again, in that case, we only have one elementary stream, so I chose to have only one video because otherwise it's complicated things a lot. So the internal of the TS demux is the split pipe that allows to select which PID you want, and we also have decoders for PAT and PMT, which has internal structures of the TS, and then you have the TS mix, which is quite symmetric compared to the TS demux program, and well, input elementary stream. The output of the TS mix is then sent to also another worker thread that adds an RTP header and outputs it to UDP. The last use case, because I'm running out of time, is a quite nice application we use in my company for recording, so actually I simplified it a lot because otherwise it would be too big to display on the screen, but basically we have an application where we receive a stream from UDP again, UDP RTP. We record it immediately as TS, but at the same time we decode it, so demux it decode it to get some frames, the key frames for thumbnails, and we recreate JPEGs from the thumbnails. So here you see a dub pipe that one is directly written to the disk and the other is sent to the TS demux again, so now you're used to it. And at the output of the TS demux we have a bit more pipeline. Between the arrows you can see the types, but it's a bit, so AV codec, the interlace, because for JPEG you want an interlace, and this pipeline here is ad hoc, create sums out of the frames we've selected, and we record it with AV codec encoder, this one for JPEG, and write it with a file sync to a file. Okay, last use case, but this time I won't show you a graph because it would be enormous, it's a mosaic. So this is, for instance, a mosaic we have at work, so this is a real life example. So basically all of this is done with U-Pipe, using a pipeline per input, outputting to bleed functions, to bleed pipes, that will bleed each of the frames to a single picture, and so normally it's also live. This is also for the audio, so that's a nice contribution by OBS, it moves with your level. So all of this is done with a U-Pipe pipeline. Other use cases that we have in production that I did not have time to talk about here, so IRD, of course, we have a company using that from TS, we could also imagine it from HLS. Live encoder, live transcoder, to TS, or to RTMP, I SCAST, anything that I use for much support basically. File transcoder, that's something we have in our company as well, from TS usually to MP4, that's a typical use case for us. We also have an MPTS MUX, that's a product from my company as well, based entirely based on U-Pipe and the TS MUX that you've seen earlier. It would be quite a large workflow to show, but it works with U-Pipe. And also something we demonstrated actually at the IBC last year, is a cloud system with overlay. So we've just played out files, decoded files, and added a logo that moves and a banner and a picture inside of a picture, picture in picture and so on. I think I'm right on time for some question, Kieran. I just wanted to, you mentioned HTTP, is it compatible with HTTPS? So you said I talked about HTTP, but is it compatible with HTTPS? At the moment, I don't think so, because the company that provided it doesn't use it, so. All right, the third party works with you? Yes, it's a nameless network operator, I'm not sure we can say who it is, who contributed that part to us, and they did HTTP, they did AES, also unscrambling, so if the stream is crumbled. AES encryption, is it available? Yes, yes, it's already merged in. It also supports whether you have the audio inside, mixed with the video or a separate file, variant, I don't know how you call it, in your M3 or U8. So which MPEG-TS standard do we comply to? First, the ISO, and what I was actually referring to with that is the fact that with T-STD compliance, that means that the timing of a packet has very strong constraints in the T-S specification. You can't send the packet too early, you can't send it too late either, you can't burst, and so on, all of that is specified in the specification, and it's actually very difficult to understand, it took me years. So that's what I was referring to, we also comply to DVB, and we have decoders for SDT and NIT and so on, well, usual, that's not specific to our project, but yeah. The use cases for? Yeah, have you published the code for them? So have we published the code for the use cases? Some of them are online. So the player basically is an example that we call Uplay, that's in the example directory of the UPype repository, so if you want to see our code, it's on GitHub. So the player is, the transcoder of the T-S-Tremux is also, it's a test unit actually called UPype T-S test, that we use to test that our D-Mux and Mux don't send behavior from release to release. The third one was recording is not, it's actually not published yet, probably at some point we will, but not so far. One also very important thing, if you wish to contact us, so we have a website, UPype.org of course, we have our GitHub, and if you wish to talk to us, the best is to come to our IRC, UPype on FreeNode. We also have a mailing list, but usually when I say that, Q1 laughs. So what kind of subtitles standard we support in UPype, that's okay. For Vank? For Vank, ah, for Vank, sorry. So for video and series, for those of you who don't know that video and series, a part of the picture on the SDI interface, the raw video, that embeds some structure, so basically OP47, so that means teletext, basically. So we take that and we turn it into a teletext packet. And all the things that we do. All the American and some other things. All the American SD and all the European SD and the pass through of the US Bank as well, so captions and subtitles. Yeah, I'm not sure it's in Vank, it's in VBI, right? Well, in SD it's VBI. Yeah, in SD it's VBI. I was specifically referring to Vank because I worked on it last summer, and the other thing we support is Coty 104, that's not for subtitling, but that's to determine the timing of the beginning of show, or the end of the show, or splicing, and so on. Very quick, how about DVB sub? So how about DVB sub? The thing is DVB sub, you won't find it in SDI, because there is no, as far as I know, there is no standard to embed it in SDI. From a TS, to a TS, as a PA? From a TS to a TS, we of course demultiplex it and re-multiplex it. I think you have code that allows you to put it on screen, DVB sub. That's actually for title text. Not just for title text. It should work, it's a big map, should work. We don't do title, so we do that. Actually it's never been tested, but it should work. If your question was do we support transcoding to the text to DVB sub at the moment, no. But this is something we're seriously thinking about. Okay.


If that is everyone, now that I'm screen sharing, I don't have everyone's beautiful faces in front of me. So with that, I will call the meeting to order at 12.05 p.m. Eastern time. And I guess first point of business will be to approve last Thursday's meeting minutes. All subcommittee members should have gotten an email. With that, is there any, has everyone had a chance to look over that? Are there any points of discussion, corrections, or amendments that need to happen? Or how's everyone feeling about the meeting minutes from last Thursday's meeting? I think Billy's the only member of the subcommittee here. We might have to wait until next, we might have to wait until Thursday to actually motion and second. Okay, yeah, that was going to be my other question. Is how's the quorum work? I wasn't sure if you were considered a member of a subcommittee, so we'd have three out of the five. I'm not technically a subcommittee member. I'm more of a observer. And again, assisting you if there's anything I can do to help from my perspective here. Okay, well then we'll have to postpone the motion to approve Thursday's meeting minutes until the following meeting. Nellie, is that okay with the state guidelines for the five days? It's five business days, so it should be, yes. Okay, we'll do a good bye email on that. Okay, well thank you everyone for our second standard release of the meeting, for figuring out the adult use cannabis regulation recommendations for the beautiful state of Vermont. So for today's meeting, because you can all see the screen I'm sharing, and I think hopefully in person in that room you have a screen set up. We're going to be talking about kind of the environmental requirements that are in Act 164 and 62, as well as the existing regulations. So kind of taking it a next step from our last meeting. So I've gone through to kind of help guide the discussion for today, and kind of outlined, pulled out kind of the environmental perspectives for discussion points, as I've seen them with what's contained in the Act. So kind of went through and looked at like what are requirements, I guess our objectives of the subcommittee has written, and so there's definitely the groundwater quality requirements, and seeing with like a gap analysis, or if there are experts in the committee, if there are additional protections we need for groundwater resources. There's also building energy standards, in comparing to what we're seeing, and I know from a previous CCB meeting, we have gone recommendations, cannabis cultivation facilities, then energy audits, and then their frequency, and then any other energy efficiency and conservation measures that may be applicable to cannabis establishments. The other thing I wanted to kind of point, sorry about that, point out is making recommendations for the permitting licensing, for cultivators and cannabis product manufacturers, and what those conditions would be, and then also in Act 164, there was the priorities of patient licensing, so it's whether the project incorporates the principles of environmental resilience and sustainability. So I feel like that should be in the back of our mind as we move in future meetings, and start to really get into the nitty gritty of what kind of standards and regulations we want to see is that does have a beginning to come up with recommendations for how the licensing is going to take into account. What I thought was interesting within the definitions, so the three that I think are most important to sustainability, environmental issues involved in cannabis cultivation and processing and manufacturing is that enclosed locked facility means a building and a greenhouse or an outdoor fenced-in area so that pretty much everything is allowed under the law is the square footage dedicated to live plant production. It doesn't include areas of office space or storage, et cetera. So I did want to kind of discuss on the plant canopy part is since it says live plant production, that's including propagation, veg, and flowering plants. Is that how youth interpret it? I think right now that's what that broad definition means, yes. Okay, so I think that has some serious implications when you talk about small farms and has it written with a thousand square feet, which is the next point, that small cultivator, because a thousand square feet of canopy is very small if it's including all aspects of cultivation. And just realizing that if people are applying for small cultivators, I think there's going to be more of them, probably some impact on that. Very interesting, section 863, when it says regulation by local government. So, Billy, I really like your input on this. It has, I didn't write the actual, I should probably put in what the language says, but my question on that was what control over licensing and licensing cuts do municipalities have? And I was thinking of is, can cities, municipalities, towns, then are there zoning implications? Like are we going to see a clustering effect when it comes down to the local government level for issuing permits and licensing? Because I think that's going to have a lot of environmental implications. So I was wondering where we were at as all these committees are working on the role and the enforcement, I guess, in the power of local governments. Do you want me to respond now or wait until you kind of go through your deck? No, no, please now. This is not, yeah, the deck is not going to be dead by our way. Just kind of making a way. Yeah, I'm certainly no expert on kind of municipal law in Vermont. And I would encourage you to reach out to the Vermont League of Cities and Towns who are kind of a representative broadly of local government in Vermont. You know, but based on what I do know, since the Act defines cannabis cultivation as non-agricultural, I'm assuming that whatever agricultural exemptions to local zoning exist for traditional agriculture goes away. So towns may be able to zone and regulate cultivation if that's the case. If it's a commercial activity.  I believe that you can't kind of spot zone based on the particular activity. You have to treat like all commercial things the same. You couldn't treat the commercial cultivation of cannabis differently than a commercial activity in a zoning district. So I think if there's municipal regs related to commercial activities, those would, they may apply to cannabis cultivation. And I'm not sure that a town could create special zoning designations for cannabis cultivation outside of just a generic commercial activity. But again, I think the folks at VLCT and there's a number of kind of attorneys who work for statewide on municipal law issues would be great resources in that regard. And just kind of for a future reference, like if I get like an agenda, like a week or so ahead with some specific areas of inquiry, I can do some work in advance of these meetings to try to have better answers. But just coming in cold, there's only so much I'm going to be able to do. Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's not why I was doing this PowerPoint. Because, you know, from our last meeting on Thursday until now, it's only been one day. But now that we have until Thursday, I'm going to get some more stuff out tomorrow and try to do as far as many meetings in the future as possible. I do have a question with like your experience with the planning and in Vermont, are we expecting or are you guys expecting kind of, are there any towns or areas you think that would be against having a different cannabis cultivation or processing or retail throughout the state? Yeah, there's certainly and you know, Kyle can probably speak to this. There's a provision in the act that allows towns to kind of opt out of hosting retail outlets and some town or opt in. I forget which it is. Some towns have already taken action on that question. Others intend to. There are some sense of municipalities who are kind of supportive and not at least of having retail outlets in their communities. I don't know if there's been any debate locally around cultivation or processing. Okay. Yes. So Jacob, my understanding is towns can opt into having retail establishments but they don't have as much control from a cultivation perspective at the local level. I will also say just for the knowledge of this committee because I'm sitting in multiple committees that this local control, local fees, local ordinance model, local ordinance question has come up in compliance and enforcement and the market structure committee. And those committees are definitely looking to make sure that everybody is of the same understanding when it comes to local control. I agree with Billy's overview from a retail commercial perspective for the most part on local control. You know, I think they're going to be resigned to having those traditional local responsibilities when it comes to advertising and so on and so forth. But as Billy said, they can't pay too much attention specifically to this industry if they aren't doing the same thing to other ones. The cultivation side of it and how Act 164 talks about local enforcement of cultivation is something the board is still working through with our general counsel to make sure we understand exactly what that means. Okay. Yeah. I just wanted to bring that up as we're going through this. I'm wondering if we have to be clustering in the intensity of the environmental impacts. If, you know, we're going to see, you know, we will see them in more major cities for endocrine cultivation, but if there's that layer we need to add to it when looking at setting potential energy efficiency levels or, you know, looking at power consumption, things like that. There's a couple towns, I think, in the Northeast Kingdom, which is more of the rural part of Vermont, for your knowledge that have decided that they don't want retail establishments in their town. I wouldn't, if we're looking at a macro of Vermont, I wouldn't say that they're towns that are going to severely impact our market analysis or anything like that. We do have a survey out to all municipalities in the state of Vermont that are asking their intentions about putting this on a ballot and kind of seeing who is prioritizing this over the next six months to a year. Yeah. So moving on, there's a section on prohibited products. Yes, on this section is so, cannabis flower, producer's cell, cannabis flower that's greater than 30% THC. And my, what came out of thinking about this in an environmental perspective is, one, what are people going to do with it and the enforcement sector, what happens when you cultivate cannabis and growing it and all of a sudden it tests above 30%. I'm guessing it can't necessarily be sold for retail, but is that going to be allowed to be processed into manufactured products, edibles, concentrates? Or does that need to be destroyed? In which case I think there is a waste management issue there and making sure that this organic material can be, you know, that it's not, it's being diverted from landfill. So that's kind of what came up for that point. And then we can talk about all three and then have the conversation. I guess the other one is the solid concentrates no greater than 60% THC. And so I was wondering, this doesn't necessarily have to do with environmental sustainability, but out of just more like public health things, what are the dilution protocols and how is that going to work? If, you know, you make a run of distillate and it's 70%, you're going to have to dilute it with something, just something to, I guess, maybe think about in other committees. And then with the cannabis oils have to be sold prepackaged for use with batteries is if everything, you cancel like syringes or bulk oil, you're going to have a lot of prepackaged vape cartridges. And that is also another waste management concern. So potentially we should be discussing kind of recyclability of that, or potentially requiring kind of a take-back scan of the industry. So I want to kind of see what your guys' thoughts are on those two points as we kind of, you know, we'll have a whole meeting kind of on waste management, but within the rules, I think those are two kind of concerns with the laws written right now that are going to, I think, create more waste. I would definitely support the idea of having like a dedicated beauty on waste management where I can have kind of experts within our waste management division kind of speak in a higher level sophistication to these questions. You know, I did talk with them a little bit and understand that it's likely that some of the state's existing compost facilities can provide like a proof of destruction or I forget the exact term, but something to certify that a product has been decommissioned and is no longer available for retail use. There's a number of different companies that have export requirements around in-country use of the materials that they produce and need to demonstrate that they've been destroyed if they remain in America and our compost facilities can achieve that. So I think that can provide at least proof of appropriate disposition. I think the main question with the compost facilities is whether they have adequate security to meet the requirements of the act. Again, talking specifically with the waste management folks in our environmental conservation department, I think can inform both that question and questions around waste associated with the materials, packaging materials. Yeah, I think when we have the waste management discussion, we definitely are going to need to invite leaders in the environmental conservation people but also the waste management because my understanding from other states that I imagine Vermont's going to be the same is everything needs to be disposed of in-state. It's going to have issues you're trying to cross state lines to use another state's landfill or something like that. So we need to know what capacity is and also I think what, especially from a recycling plastics perspective, what is actually going to be able to be recycled and captured with the technology and systems that have been placed. Yeah, so we could get representatives from the waste industry to kind of talk to those things in addition to our state regulator folks. So then, as far as like the rulemaking cannabis establishment section, so there's the tiered system based on plain cannabis so we'll have to think about that. I think we're pretty good with the pesticide use aspect of it with it being at least as rigid as the VAFMs as like control regulations. And so that's, there is some a deep to that. We do need to create standards for indoor cultivation and then as far as kind of manufacturing laboratories. Not so much for the, well, it kind of goes into the last slide with the products not containing more than 50 milligrams of THC. I think it's just kind of doubling the amount of vape cartridges or concentrates we're going to see in the market. So just another reason to really look at the waste management aspects. But then also, yeah, thinking about with the laboratories, there's the procedures for destruction of all cannabis samples. And so I think that's another waste management item to see how that can be destroyed or if it's organic material, how we can put in regulations or recommendations for trying to divert any organic materials from the waste stream. And then moving out, so there are six licenses written into this law to think about that a cultivator, wholesaler, product manufacturer, retailer, lab testing, integrated license. Kyle, I did have a question for you I thought would be good to discuss is with an integrated license, I saw that they can't have more than one license in each category. There was nothing explicitly written or that I saw talking about locations. So are they allowed to do multiple activities and have multiple licenses under one facility? It's a good question. And I'll get back to you with a more firm answer. But my understanding is, you know, I know that there's some facilities that would be eligible for an integrated license that kind of are have, I've been in at least one facility that looks like it has everything, all the license types working under one location. So I would imagine that we would allow for a combined location of these different license types. But I haven't been to other integrated license potential, you know, operations to kind of see firsthand how separate or combined things are. And I quite honestly haven't thought about that distinction all too much. So we'll get back to you. Gotcha. Yeah. Just working on creating a using the BS market predictions to try to figure out, yeah, how many facilities, how many sites we're going to be seeing. So like what those impacts would be. And so if they're, you know, I can then see, well, it wouldn't matter if they're how many integrated licenses would be for the model, if each one has to be separate, you know, but if they're combined, you do get some, I think, economies of scale savings on environmental impacts. So then going to the cultivator license. I did have a question or we have a discussion. We want to create recommendations for this, but in the in the act, it says each cultivator shall create packaging for its cannabis as it's moving along, I guess the process. And so my question was, what is non retail packaging going to look like? And should we be creating recommendations for that? So if the cultivator needs to create packaging that has all the list of requirements on there. So everything dealing with track and trace, you know, created data, et cetera. When it goes to a wholesaler or a product manufacturer or an integrated licensee dispensary, et cetera. Do we want to create recommendations for the packaging to kind of promote a reusability of packaging or limit kind of the waste stream, the waste generation from that kind of system? Jake, it might be helpful to know how other jurisdictions that you have experience with approach that non retail packaging and keeping, you know, the supply chain intact all the way to the retail establishment. Yeah. I would say that it kind of runs the gamut. In my experience, there's some or there's no regulations at all. I don't think there's too much stipulation on it. There's a lot of just the regulations on creating it's like the manifest as you will. That includes all the state required things in the act. I think there's definitely opportunity to at least in the licensing application aspect of prioritizing licensees who want to do a standardized kind of unit. I mean, a lot of things are in these like black bands with yellow tops. A lot of things are distributed throughout the supply chain with that and are reused, you know, and washable, cleanable, food safe, et cetera. And so I think there's opportunities there to award cultivators, manufacturers, processors who want to take that initiative and kind of create those systems. I think the only thing that would prevent that is if there are going to be regulations on the locking of this material during transport or any kind of those kind of safety concerns. So I think that's just something to keep in mind. I think in the, if there's a transportation or processing manufacturing committee when they look at those rules for that. Yeah. We have a compliance enforcement committee and it might be helpful to get a quick order from you, Jacob, on that and its impact for that committee if we're going to zero in on how what additional requirements might be, you know, there for moving this throughout the supply chain. Yeah. You definitely pull from what's going on in the food agricultural supply chain industry for sure. And then the other thing I saw that Act 62 included was that the dispensary canal also is permitted to cultivate and manufacture cannabis for the purpose of transferring and selling to an integrated licensee. So just keeping that in mind when we're talking when we create these recommendations and creating these environmental requirements for the cultivator that those are also going to have to be included on some level of the dispensary license. If they're going to have the opportunity to also cultivate or manufacture. Yeah. So I had some questions and wanted to have a discussion. I know this is probably more Stephanie's area of expertise and so I will be talking with her after this meeting so we can get her input at the next one but that cannabis is not going to be regulated as farming under the required agricultural practices but is going to have to comply with the required agricultural practices. And so what I really liked about how the role was written I haven't had too much time to go through it but that it doesn't disqualify I guess already agricultural businesses their land or buildings if they're going to the cannabis industry from their use value critical program which I think is a really good environmental program you guys have in Vermont. So I think that's a big win for environmental and sustainability efforts. There was this B on this where it was saying that the processing, cultivation, processing, manufacturing of cannabis has to comply with all of these regulations and I was wondering in Vermont are additional areas, cities, counties, kingdoms that have local environmental and energy regulations that we should be aware about as a committee. So just broadly speaking most Vermont has state laws and then municipal laws we don't have much of a county government or other sort of structure in that regard so there are municipalities that do adopt local bylaws related to environmental issues so it's a really kind of town by town analysis to see if they have adopted rules that kind of exceed the minimum set by the state so I don't know that that would be the my sense is that this board should be focusing on kind of compliance with state law and then letting the individual operators with requirements that they also comply with municipal law and letting the individual operators navigate the municipal system because we have 251 municipalities or kind of units in the state and their approach to these issues can change broadly. Yeah I was going to do my follow-up question was like should this even be a concern of ours I do even though we're on a very strict pretty deadline would it be helpful your experience if we had created recommendations or guidelines or some kind of guidance for the municipality level as they're looking to you know looking at the permitting side of things to have some kind of resource. I think so and again that organization I mentioned earlier the Vermont League of Seas and Towns they put on kind of annual trainings for municipal administrators both kind of paid folks and the volunteers who run a lot of the towns and Vermont's boards and commissions they do a lot of outreach provide technical assistance so I think some outreach to them to see what their members would find valuable in this space would probably be a good step. Perfect yeah I think we'll probably bring them in towards the end once we have the state recommendations and everything starting to be fleshed out yeah so the last thing on this was with their complied with the required agricultural practices which I'll go into in the next few slides so the thing that pointed out to me is like in the way the Act is written it is saying that Canada's cultivation needs to comply with the RAP but when looking into the RFP I did see that you know cannabis farms they don't fit into any of the categories there there's the smallest category which is certified small farms which I believe is going to be over 50 acres I just don't see many cannabis cultivators being on any kind of scale so I do think that there is going to be some language I'll have to create it makes sense for licensees to adopt these things so right into the law there's section 6-8-12 so I'll go through those real quick I don't know are you familiar with the required agricultural practices I am but not in a very in-depth way Stephanie's agency is the one that administers those yeah so was that you Kyle? I was just saying correct if we need to get folks from Ag here to go over these more specifically you know that's something that we can do yeah yeah so I can go through this pretty quickly it's really coming down to just kind of pulled out a bunch of things to have a discussion on this but we can wait until Stephanie is at the next meeting but essentially I think it's really good that this from an environmental sustainability point of view is required because it does cover I mean the main point of the required agricultural practices it does seem is for water quality and water discharges and protection of the environment in surface areas surface water areas so it doesn't allow for discharges the surface water mainly through directly pipes or culverts etc it does have regulations on appropriate storage the nutrient management planning and so it did pull out some things that stood out to me on and we need to figure out how that's going to get like make sense because a lot of it is made for regular traditional agriculture so it refers to UVM recommendations for a lot and I don't think those exist or are created for cannabis so it's definitely Stephanie's question with her expertise in the hemp and medical industry this for me raises kind of a larger and I think more significant question about like how are we actually regulating these impacts because the RIPs are largely a proxy for other state environmental laws that don't apply to agriculture because agriculture is exempt from those laws in one way or the other you know it's not 100% but basically if this is a commercial activity there's probably state laws and regulatory programs that address all these issues that may be the same or approach or may be different than the RIP so I think we probably want to go kind of resource impact by resource impact and just kind of clarify which you know which rubric is going to be applicable and then we can figure out if there's gaps in either of them that need to be filled was that that makes sense I was under the impression with the way Act 164 was written how it has the language of Canada or adult use, cannabis cultivators must comply or will comply, can't be the exact language to the required agriculture practices so what's stated in that so I was thinking that this was the minimum and then expand upon with the other state agencies that's helpful, yeah I guess I think if they're complying with the RAPs if they're applying with other kind of applicable state law they're going to be complying with the RAPs as well would be my sense because I started to look at the different state like the Vermont Statues like Title X and Title VI and then once I was going back they were reading the Act explicitly states the required agricultural practices so Kyle looked to get the board's opinion on that I'm taking note I want to say also and I don't have the statute in front of me I'm trying to pull it out so I can make sure that I have the words right in my head but because the small craft cultivators within that thousand square foot are considered commercial the RAP language also almost kind of like a backstop to make sure that those small cultivators were also their practices were reflected through those those specific sections of the required act practices did that make sense? yeah so that language is in the statute I guess in section 9 and 12 it goes through groundwater quality and subsurface tile drainage so the things that I noticed for the gaps from 164 into other sustainability things is with the RAP the sustainability state in the Act 164 about sections 5 or 9 which I think might be important to make recommendations on so once the water quality training to make sure that they're knowledgeable and have a base knowledge expertise on the water quality issues in agriculture in Vermont and then section 9 which is the construction of farm structures I think with cannabis I do believe that a lot of licensees will be building power facilities or expanding existing farm structures so that might be something to look at as well but I also think that that might be covered in Act 250 which I'm hoping to get your opinion on Billy and a little bit more education on that and then other things that we might need to be looking at is there's no air quality pollution or odor control regulations we think about there is odor control as it pertains to applying manure but mainly with the cannabis industry we're seeing as odor issues odor nuisance amongst like neighbors in different areas that cultivators are beginning so it's definitely something that we need to come up with recommendations for and there's no energy regulations and there's no like land management biodiversity regulations it's really very water centric there's air quality regs at the state level that exist that have already been I think exercised in the context of the hemp market so I know that air quality and climate division has been involved in kind of oversight in investigation of neighbor nuisance complaints of hemp processing and cultivation so those regulations do exist outside the areas I really wish that she runs the hemp program so if you need help connecting with her Jacob to get a better understanding of certain things before our next meeting I can certainly help facilitate that I am curious on how her program has worked through the air quality pollution and odor control regs especially on odor control because we have right to farm laws in Vermont which help alleviate some of those nuisance claims that neighbors might have but because this is not considered an agricultural product what does that right to farm actually look like here and how do odor control regulations maybe apply differently from a nuisance perspective and even when they do apply I can say that these are some of the hardest considerations to enforce because there is so much subjectivity to what is perceived as a nuisance odor and so we struggle outside the act sector in enforcing odor regulations in the state just because there is so much variability in subjectivity to them so I think we can share that information both the kind of statutory and regulatory information as well as the direct experience of our regulators in trying to investigate and enforce these concerns and this may be a place where the board chooses to just come up with their own standard if they so choose to to help mitigate odors so we don't have to rely on a regulatory framework that is hard to enforce sometimes what we're seeing in a lot of places with the mitigating of odors because it is so subjective and very localized is having safeguards in place if a cultivator is making their best effort by using industry by using your best practices with mitigation equipment that they can't necessarily be penalized because of that and the whole kind of good neighbor thing but if that also is very much on a municipal level as well and so definitely something to when I reviewed the standards I did not see too much about odor issues so I'll definitely reach out to Stephanie when we start discussing that and then yeah so Billy I was hoping you could shed some light on because I know we had mentioned it in the last meeting started to dig through it from my understanding for Act 250 that the areas that this would trigger requiring Act 250 permit for cannabis cultivation or processing would be with the improvement to commercial industrial use above 200-500 feet improvements on more than 10 acres within a town without permanent zoning subdivision regulations if I was reading that right any kind of change to a grandfather building so something that's pre-1970s and then if they were drawing 340,000 gallons of water is that correct that Act 250 will get triggered if any of these happen? Generally yes and then there's probably more right so the subdivision one is probably less applicable that's going to look at just the subdivision of land for whatever purpose so yes if land is being subdivided and a resulting parcel is going to be used for a cannabis related industry that subdivision is going to trigger Act 250 review but that applies broadly and I would imagine these folks are going to focus on lots that exist and not be subdividing land to create their enterprise but that seems less applicable the construction of improvements is probably the biggest one and it's actually on more than 10 acres of land only in towns that have permanent bylaws and subdivision regulations in towns that lack zoning and subdivision regulations it's a one acre parcel trigger so in towns that don't have good or robust municipal bylaws any acre any parcel an acre or larger that is supporting those improvements which trigger jurisdiction and it's not just like it's not the area of disturbance it's the actual size of the parcel so that's why the whole agriculture like the farm question raises some questions for me so like most farms are bigger than 10 acres and they don't have a component of their agricultural operation the cannabis cultivation and that's commercial is that going to trigger Act 250 jurisdiction at that site and then are they going to need to obtain Act 250 permit for some portion of their enterprise Billy that's my biggest question in my understanding of 250 and how this works that's certainly my biggest question and my biggest concern as well and I've talked to Greg Boble as the general council the natural resources board that administers Act 250 and you know discuss this question with him a little bit and I'm not entirely clear where they stand on it he indicated that there's ways to likely kind of reduce a limit jurisdiction to just the area being cultivated for cannabis and not pull the rest of the farm into Act 250 but given what Stephanie said last week about the tendency for crops to be rotated and that cannabis you know plot to maybe move around on the farm there may be some challenges there there's also other activities that require Act 250 permits where the permit goes away after the activity has concluded those are primarily gravel and sand extraction operations in all other cases Act 250 leans basically are perpetual encumbrance on a parcel but for gravel and sand pit after you've kind of closed out your extraction and met all your decommissioning requirements Act 250 jurisdiction does go away so there may be an opportunity to kind of apply that model here if Act 250 is in fact an exert jurisdiction over these operations that's great to know Billy and you probably don't know the answer to this from a timeline perspective procedural perspective I'm sure that there's not a whole lot of examples of well maybe there's a lot of examples of that process playing out how long does that typically take to work back out of Act 250 it can go pretty quickly usually those sorts of businesses are operating for many years it might be like a gravel pit that's going to operate for 10-20 years and then they decommission and jurisdiction is released I think the kind of close-out process can be fairly quick it's basically like going through another Act 250 amendment process just showing that you've met the conditions of your decommissioning plan and the permit so I don't think it has to be overly burdensome but there is some process associated with it I think it would be much simpler here you just have to show that you're no longer being cannabis with those projects there's engineering and other things that need to be brought to the table with this I think you would just have to put in an affidavit or something that says you're no longer doing the activity and on that point I did pull from the Vermont Agricultural and Food Systems Plan for 2020 and so in the hem section which I believe Stephanie had a role in it was saying that 60% of growers were less than 5 acres of the cultivated acreage by 8 growers and they were averaging between 50 and 100 acres so I give you some kind of understanding the size of growers at least in the hem world what we might be seeing as far as applications and licensing Jacob I actually helped put that whole plan together so any other questions you have on it I wrote the Ag policy brief oh nice no I mean I was just looking at it because I was just digesting everything about the Vermont agricultural kind of what's there I did like the way looking at climate change and looking at what Vermont is concerned about with the farmers right now as far as issues that they're facing and will be facing more of what's the things definitely to be of concern I want to kind of relate this to what we see in the the rap and then the other many other potential regulations in comparing to kind of best practices of recommendation so these are definitely things we'll be focusing on it does seem as though with the water quality phosphorus runoff is a huge concern especially with your lakes and streams and then one thing that came I wasn't quite sure what section it was but kind of I thought was a good opportunity was for the young farmers and looking at the social equity components and seeing how we can encourage that from an environmental sustainability you know cultivation to align with you know what the goals are of the state does seem like succession is a huge issue the amount of retired farmers predicted in the next five years or I guess three years by now and so I think it's a big opportunity when we start to talk about social equity and then just going back to previous slide it does seem as yeah if Act 250 is going to be in vote yeah it covers pretty much all environmental impacts that we would have to to look at so I guess Billy since you have the most familiarity with Act 250 is it worth us going through and pulling out language that might be useful when it comes to you know water conservation wetlands soil erosion and drainage as we're looking at the recommendations if not all of the farms are going to need to essentially require an Act 250 permit what I would recommend you do is work with the Act 250 Natural Resources Board and task them with developing guidance for how and if Act 250 applies to this sector it's a highly complex and specialized body of regulation and there's a significant amount of guidance documents that have already been developed for each of the criteria through my agency through the NRB so I think that charging them to come up with that is your best bet I think what's really needed from the Canada Board is a clear articulation of how and if Act 250 will apply to this work I think once those questions that like if and how are answered then there's capacity within Act 250 in my agency to kind of come up with guidance for how folks navigate the process but that threshold question needs to be answered first if any of these criteria can be satisfied by other state permits for instance to satisfy the wetlands criteria generally you just have to get a wetlands permit or show you don't need one so it isn't as complex as this officially reads but it still is a lot my understanding is like reading through it is that like Act 250 though is kind of the most stringent environmental regulations that Vermont has yes it definitely has considerations that are unique to Act 250 jurisdictional projects that don't apply to other forms of development but it only applies to I think less than 10% of all development in the state so it's not broadly applied but when it is applied it is more stringent than the baseline and Billy just Jacob if we could just stop for public comments for a moment sorry we just wanted to thank you one final 15 seconds just for information for the committee we the board has you know contacted some community planners at ACCD and made contact with the NRB to start understanding the impacts or intended or unintended and expected impacts that this emerging market will have on Act 250 we have not gone as far as asking for any formal guidance from the NRB or through the attorney general's office or anything like that but you know something that we'll consider yes and I'll open it up to public comments dude no I know that's a process I'm sure we'll talk to you actually do you have any public comments no we're good on this end okay yeah and so like with that Billy who is a good person for me to reach out to that's overseeing Act 250 I would I would contact their chair which is the person who's in charge of it it's an interim chair Don Rendell the other two staff people who will be most helpful is their general counsel Greg Goldberg and the state coordinator Aaron Brondike that's kind of I think their executive leadership at this point and you know this is a pretty you know high levels question for them to dig into so I would start right at the top I'm happy to do those contacts but they have a website a natural resources board Act 250 either though she gets you there and all their contacts are on that website and Jacob we didn't work on our end of Connecticut you know we know the former chair fairly well too to the extent that might be helpful for just a download yeah I think getting a download and also since this looks like it's going to be depending on where we're doing if in the lens or if and how this does I'm going to play as much as possible Greg is going to be the most he's probably the person who's in the best position to kind of explain how Act 250 may apply what the implications that are and kind of get into that level of detail so I think Greg Boble the general counsel is very knowledgeable and I think I've prepped him for the conversation so you're just looking for like an initial kind of point of contact to frame the question I think he would be a good one okay perfect Jacob if we need to work through our general counsel to talk to their general counsel to get that more less informational topical understanding and start digging into what may apply what may not apply we can certainly do that as well okay that's good to know and then I think as I show for our next meeting where we have a few minutes we're definitely going to talk about how things the next month will go for Mondays and Thursdays and kind of get ahead of this as well as the cannabis process presentation I guess I'm creating I don't think we need to talk too much about the what government agencies are going to be overseeing one and their capacity and all of that we could look at that I think towards the end once things are written and then looking at the way things are written right now for cultivation and with the the RAP requirements potentially these Act 250 want to talk to Stephanie and see what else would be there I think that covers a lot of the environmental impact sustainability for outdoor cultivation and then really we need to focus on indoor cultivation so I wanted to talk to you Billy about what resources should we be looking into so that we're not reinventing the wheel that would be most applicable for indoor cultivation and manufacturing in the context of permitting or what exactly do you mean by resources so in the context of environmental sustainability so I know that there has been submissions of for building infrastructure efficiency for lighting between what else is out there as far as the environmental impact mitigations for indoor cultivation that are already on the books or other agencies are overseeing that I know there might be lead standards already existing in Vermont but it is more occupational focused we can look at to see what's there for recommendations or requirements for indoor cultivation aspects of things um yeah so I think from like on the energy side I think the efficiency utilities that I mentioned at our last meeting like efficiency Vermont and some of the distribution utilities are going to be in the best position to provide guidance there the Vermont public service department potentially as well I'm kind of more broad environmental considerations like air quality water quality waste management you know I think our agency has expertise there and you know can provide guidance you know I would approach it more from like topic specific you know like let's talk this week about kind of water quality challenges opportunities let's talk this week about kind of waste management you know opportunities and challenges um because I think that just may be an easier way to manage the conversation than trying to have like a broad sustainability dialogue because there's just so many I don't know all the implications of indoor cultivation so I can't tell you what the best kind of resource is because I just don't know enough about it yeah yeah no no this makes sense and we're not yeah we're all going to have those that's how it's gonna like for energy indoor outdoor waste indoor outdoor I just wanted to pick your brain to see if there's anything we probably have like DMPs for like basic manufacturing and other sorts of commercial enterprises that I can try to dig up but I just don't know if there's anything specific to this particular activity gotcha yeah so I've been going to be sending everyone a bunch I've got five or six best management practices, guides for sustainability and indoor and outdoor cannabis cultivation just kind of try to weed them out so I'm not sending everyone 140 pages of documents rather like the 15 most important pages kind of thing but yeah I was just seeing if there's already things that Vermont has in place that we could build off of but we can come discuss that as those meetings start to go down so I'm going to try to get the schedule out to everyone tomorrow or early Wednesday for our Thursday meeting I think it's just going to be back to back plan out those future meetings so we can bring in the experts we need to discuss the different specifics so I think with that we can adjourn this meeting okay great yeah I think just scheduling like a loose agenda for every meeting we have between now and we have to end would be really helpful for me to make sure I can line up the right people for the conversation absolutely you don't want to hear any speculating for the next month yeah no worries we'll really appreciate your time your insight and thank you as well Kyle and Nellie and Gina and the two public community members who came and sat in and we'll be talking on Thursday thanks Jacob that's a new adjourn but I don't think there's anybody to second you yeah thanks bye guys