The decision is sold at pet stores seriously. I have like three of them under my sink No, no, no nature's miracle Jesse says absolutely not on the dog. I told you before He can't be trusted Yeah For sure Well, it's about time Jesse Rogers daughter if you're wondering who that baby sound is It's about time Jesse got a little equal time Ellie had almost a full year of sitting on Roger's lap during the show It's true. There would have been some sibling rivalry on that point if we if we hadn't balanced it out eventually Yeah, Jesse's sort of at that age where she notices things like that It's like this is Pretty Reading her Instagram then. Yeah Yeah All those creep creep creep snaps of Ellie I mean when Jesse texts me, I know it's bad OMG you won't believe Sorry Raj Just, you know, this is this is what child people do kids right now knock yourselves out. Yeah Now we're not hearing any echo Well, it's just a it's a family Family Monday Oh, I'm gonna get flagged It's too close to the original. Yeah, it was so it's like the bot will think it's the original so so good, I Mean when I was a kid, I thought it was a terrible song, but It grows into it Well, I'm ready to go if you guys are Roger. Tell me when a good point to start recording is and yeah Let's do it all right Here we go then in three two Jonathan Gillespie has supported independent tech news directly for five years be like Jonathan become a DTNs member at patreon.com slash DTNS This is the Daily Tech News for Monday January 14th 2019 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt and from studio feline I'm Sarah Ling and From a damp area of LA. I'm Roger Chang the show's producer It's just the three of us today taking you through the tech news We're gonna talk about what I know is one of your favorite topics, you know who I'm talking about out there We're talking about headphones and headphone jacks and the lack thereof a little later in the show Also, YouTube is gonna let you swipe to go to the next video and it's iOS app. How exciting is that? Well, let's hear about a few other tech things you should know in our quick hits All right, everybody mark down the date because January 14th 2020 one year from the date of this recording Microsoft will no longer support Windows 7 Unless you're a big company that pays for the privilege, of course Windows 7 arrived in 2009 Microsoft extended its end date from 2015 to 2020 Seven years ago makes me want to do one of those memes Windows 7 2009 Windows 7 2019 Same screenshot Google's project five mobile service now supports RCS chat RCS adds things like read receipts typing indicators high-resolution media uploads to the standard used by carriers RCS can also message over data and Wi-Fi has some improved chat options. If you're like, wait a minute Doesn't that already exist? Yes, the features have been available in messaging apps Particularly if you're an iPhone user you see all these features in iMessage But that is over Apple's network in that case or it might be over Google's network in another case RCS is over the carrier's network just like SMS Google Fi also is upgrading its roaming hooks to LTE speeds in 33 countries. So there's another cool thing Apple announced that HomePod will be available in mainland China and Hong Kong starting this Friday January 18th It'll be available in white and space gray like other countries Apple also played up integration with Apple Music's new artists of the week feature in China as well as curated playlists like Mando Pop and Kanto Pop being available via HomePod in China HomePod is already available in the US the UK Australia Canada France Germany Mexico and Spain. So this is the night. I get them Chinese unit sales up, right? This is this is how they win Phone maker Oppo is sending out media invites for an event January 16th in China with the tagline 10 times the view see you soon That seems to be related to the leaks We've been seeing that Oppo plans to introduce a phone with 10 times optical zoom Which would be a first for phones Oppo However previously did show off five times optical zoom and never released it So we may see 10 times optical zoom and it'll be interesting to see if it actually makes it into a phone for sale The US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency put out a call last week for proposals to use Insect brains to control robots. Yes, you heard me, right? The research could create more efficient models for artificial intelligence as well as reveal the meaning of consciousness and subjective experience DARPA will award one million dollars to the company that and feasibility map Insect brains and create a proof of concept platform for more capable AI hardware From the people who brought you the internet someone think of the insects important sex Finally Huawei sales executive Weixiang Wang Arrested in Poland on espionage charges Friday was fired by Huawei Saturday Huawei said his actions have no relation to the company and he was fired for bringing the company into Disrepute all right. Let's talk a little bit more about what Facebook's doing to make you Remember and use its stories function Man if the email notifications weren't enough Facebook said it plans to start testing a way to quote Share the events you're interested in and coordinate to meet up with friends IRL and quote using its stories feature in the US Brazil and Mexico This is both on iOS and Android versions of the mobile app. The stories will show up with event details If friends see your story they can mark themselves as Interested or even going to the event that you've posted within the story itself a link to the event page is built in And then if a bunch of people want to go a group chat in messenger with friends who respond is included as well This is it's interesting because Facebook Facebook stories some people use it. I see Facebook stories from friends It is nowhere near the amount that people use the the stories feature in Instagram Which basically works the exact same way and of course Facebook owns Instagram But I see this as Facebook trying to figure out a better way that people can use this feature that makes sense Yeah, I get why it's one of those things and I say this a lot when we're talking about Facebook features over the years I get why Facebook wants you to do this because it'll make you use stories more and Facebook is used as next at From the verge points out it's used quite often to organize things But it means that people have to be looking at stories and I was gonna say I don't know anybody who uses stories But I also don't look at them. So I'll take your word for it that there are some people out there using them Are there enough in and and and can can the few people that use them? Cause the others to start using them because they say hey We're organizing an event or is it end up with like well, I never saw your event because you put it in stories Why didn't you just put it in the group or on your new well and the event feature on Facebook is weird anyway I mean how many notifications have you gotten recently where it's like so-and-so who's your friend on Facebook is? Interested in an event near you on Saturday, and you're like what? You know, I wasn't even in there. So yeah I'm it sounds like Facebook trained to push the stories feature in a way that probably is going to be pretty helpful to a Small amount of people maybe not that the greater Facebook population Samsung says it will launch a new line of its M series phones in India January 28th and roll them out globally Afterwards the M series is it's like mid-range cheap mid-range. It's not the cheapest line They're actually phasing out the cheapest line three models will come out ranging from ten thousand rupees Which is around a hundred forty one dollars us to twenty thousand rupees. So two hundred eighty two dollars us So these are affordable phones Samsung's partnering with Amazon on sales in India And this is their effort to try to out compete Xiaomi which leads manufacturing or sales in India and Samsung is number two trying to fend off advancements from vivo and micro max and oppo among others I Was all into this story. I'm like, yes This is exactly what Samsung needs to do They have a position that Apple doesn't in India one of Apple's biggest problems is not having any sales in India They're starting from not scratch but starting from a very low number or Samsung's trying to preserve it So coming out in India first with a good line of new M series phones is great But then partnering with Amazon I mean, I guess Amazon has got a better presence than it did a couple years ago But that seems limiting to me. Well for anybody who's like, what does that mean partnering with Amazon? Are we gonna see an Amazon button anytime? You're supposed to you know pay for something with this phone Well, I'm assuming it means that if you want the phone and you click it'll take you to Amazon to buy it I say I see owns and things like that Not in at purchases not gonna be in flipkart though Is it not gonna be available in the other big market places in India that would be a mistake? Well, I have to say Considering the fact that we just recently reported on Apple iPhone sales being a little lackluster in India as far as Apple's concerned these prices are pretty good And yeah, like you mentioned Tom, this is not even Samsung's most You know lowest-end feature phone. It's it's it's much more affordable, of course, but Yeah, the Amazon on sales thing is Interesting Samsung's got to do this though. It's the only the Amazon part is the only thing that's interesting But maybe maybe it's not exclusive. It would be silly if it was exclusive. Sure, but if they want the boost in sales I feel like they'd go with Something else, but hey, they're number two, right? They just need to maintain number two. Don't don't let it fall anymore We're number two The Google news initiative has partnered with automatic the makers of WordPress to create a quote fast secure low-cost Publishing system tailor-made to the needs of small news rooms Oh as somebody who used to work in a small newsroom. This is music to my ears It's called news pack and the news publishing platform could include website design a CMS That's content management system and commerce options as well with support for existing WordPress plugins with operating fees between 1,000 per month and 2,000 per month after launch. So again, these are smaller newsrooms Whether they be physical or online funders include Google the Lenfest Institute for journalism The John S and James all night foundation and civil media along with Google early signups for news pack are open now And a beta version is expected by July. So yeah Google's given more than half of the money and those other institutions are giving the rest Automatic is building it and I can already hear some of the objections of like a thousand to two thousand dollars per month For a blog. Well, this is not WordPress. This is a content management system And I have a lot of questions too about what you're getting for one to two thousand dollars Sure, but the promise that they're making when I in the stuff that I have read about this is You can focus on writing your news covering your news and this news pack Will take care of all of the back-end stuff. So you don't have to this is this is chump change for something like the New York Times or the Washington Post, right? They need much more advanced stuff and they pay more for it Well, and the Washington Post and the New York Times are not the focus of this. This is this is this is the idea that I Smaller market Newsrooms that may be focused on the LA area where we're all talking about rain, but it doesn't apply to the rest of the world Are dying, you know Sacramento, maybe something like that. Yeah. Yeah These are these are smaller markets, right? And and they need They need to be able to focus on what they're good at. I I think this is a great thing a lot of the stories I read about this pitched it as saving journalism This is not going to save journalism One of the big problems with journalism right now is that everybody is suddenly competing with everyone And I know I've mentioned this before so any of you have heard me go on about this, please my apologies But we went from every market like Sacramento, Los Angeles, Chicago, St. Louis and Sonati They all had their own set of competitors, right? And even those competitors weren't always competing directly the newspaper didn't have video the television stations didn't have print You know, so so there were niches even within these markets Then suddenly the internet comes along and says a now the newspaper has video the TV has print everybody in the market is now competing with each other on every platform and There are no more regions everybody can read everything So your local coverage may distinguish you but on on national news You're competing with the USA today and the New York Times and the BBC and RT and China daily And and so it's going to take even longer for us to figure out how to make that all work in the meantime Local news is the one taking a beating here And I think this kind of situation that that Google is is funding can help with that with the with those lower markets The smaller markets like we're talking it also makes me wonder because again I am not world's WordPress expert by any means But I know that it just takes one person to understand the platform to be able to accomplish what what what the seems to be doing here with news packs, so Okay, I guess we don't have enough folks that are well-versed in CMS systems working for local news stations Correct. Well, correct, right? You don't want to have to pay somebody In some markets, you don't have the money to pay somebody To pay a lot of people to do that to build the pieces to do the design To constantly be adding features, especially even in WordPress where it's plugins It takes some doing to find the right plugins and make sure they work right and all of that So, you know if this is this is going to help take that off your plate for one to two thousand dollars a month It might be worth it I'm interested if there's anybody out there either in web design and a media organization or or an editorial Who's looked at this and said yes, this is why I want it email us feedback at daily tech news show comm a Team at the University of California, San Diego has bioprinted a section of spinal cord that can be custom fit into a patient The procedure started by printing implants made of soft gel and then using a printer to fill them With neural stem cells and the reason you print the stem cells in there is you want to arrange them in a way that you get the Right mix of tissues growing the implants were then placed in a rat's spinal cord and formed new connections To bridge a gap in the spinal cord and connect to the circulatory system Precision 3d printing at one micron scale usually Bioprinting is like 200 microns So this is an advance in and of itself was used to make sure that the implant fit accurately into the wound and Partial movement was restored to the rats hind quarters research was published in the journal nature medicine You know, it's interesting when Tom and Roger and I were at CES last week We ran into a former colleague of ours who is in the 3d printing business and he said, you know It's funny 3d printing is kind of moving away from CES It's just not that cool area that people thought was going to change their lives but when you hear a story like this you realize how important and Amazing this actually is well and that fits with what he was telling us because You know, it's not a 3d printer on every desk, right? This is a 3d printer in the lab and that is where it has gone. It has become an enterprise thing It has become something that is important in certain businesses and in research And this is an example of that and man if you can make this work for humans, which is I'm not saying they can't right? I mean rats are close, but they aren't humans if you can make this work with a more, you know Complex system like a human being Suddenly you're printing people new spinal cords and they can walk again. That's that's crazy I don't that's no 3d like there's there's nothing that could be better 3d printing machine that to be able to restore Capabilities like that. I mean the promise The promise of me being able to print a new part for my dishwasher kind of pales in comparison Exactly when I think that that's where you know, there there was this sort of flurry of like a 3d printing We're gonna be able to you know, we're gonna be do all our own things We'll never have to have somebody come by and fix our dishwasher again. Yeah, okay Well, that's not really something that people need all that often. But when it comes to the medical fields, it is the I mean the the the The potential here is So life-changing for people that I Hope it works Now we go from one life-changing story to another We sure do Tom a stock photo of an egg has dethroned Kylie Jenner's birth Announcement as the most liked Instagram post ever in the history of Instagram The New York Times pointed out and I thought this was kind of interesting that the eggs likes have now passed the population of Australia That's a whole continent which was over 30 million as of Monday morning when I last checked it The account called world underscore record underscore egg was posted January 4th with the caption Let's set a world record together to get the most like post on Instagram buzzfeed who claims to have interviewed the poster says that the person Was engaging in dry January Justin rubber young are you listening? The egg is referred to as Eugene if you're curious now if we on our pre-show We couldn't help and I don't know if it's on the good day internet I think it was before that we couldn't help but speculate like why did this take off and My my feeling is that there is no why this is absolute random How there have been plenty of other Instagram posts from people saying I want this to be the most liked post ever and They didn't take off this one did Who knows why it was a series of events? That just happened to keep that beach ball in the air long enough For Jimmy Fallon and Ellen DeGeneres to then decide to talk about it on their shows and once you get celebrities involved like that Then it becomes then you know, that's it's it's a Permian explosion, right? That's that's when it suddenly just starts to self propagate and and takes off and keeps going and people think oh Well, this is silly. I'll join in and do it too How it got to that point no no no way of knowing, you know This this person was just bored on a Friday because they can't they're not drinking in January and said I'm gonna do this for kicks How many hundreds of thousands of other stories exactly like that exists in the history of Instagram is a no very many That's what happened and we think if we kind of ascribe some intentionality to it But the fact is this is the one in a million like probably literally a million times That it was tried and this one just happened to catch where most of them don't it's a photo of an egg It's it's not interesting Original photo of it right the the that's why this this is why and we were talking about this with rich Druffalino this morning It's why do certain memes take off right? You just don't know the the the pointlessness of it is why it's so compelling and the fact that 30 million plus people liked this photo. I mean sure I could you know Went around the what it got passed around so so there was some there was some momentum there But I mean, it's just silly internet at its past. Did you like it? I Did not I have not I have not I Yeah, I'll report on these sorts of stories, but I'm not gonna engage Tom Hey, folks if you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes You can hear Sarah Lane report on these stories along with rich Druffalino and myself each day five minutes keeps you up to date at dailytechheadlines.com All right, Android Authority has a great article up today going into USB see It's it's kind of roughly based on on the idea that there weren't a lot of USB see based headphones at CES Lily Katz wrote the story for Android Authority about whether USB see audio as in USB see headphones might be dying and Could we see the return of the headphone jack now? I grant you that is a fantasy that many of you are going to want to buy into just because you want the headphone jack to continue To be available on your favorite device that got rid of it It's hard to say whether that's gonna happen or not, but I thought we could discuss today How much this really bothers us and where we think it's going let's start with Why do companies even want to ditch the headphone jack? It's dead simple. It always works. It's cross-compatible. It's proven technology It's been around for years the old tip ring TRRS mini 3.5 millimeter jack is beloved Well, it reduces the components needed inside the device that reduces your cost Gives you more room for battery or to spend the money on something else Slims down possibly if you don't use it for battery. It just makes those devices easier to manufacture and look nice and Bluetooth LE means that wireless audio is a realistic alternative especially as the prices for Bluetooth headphones have come down and so Before if you didn't have a headphone jack. You basically had to give people headphones That had had the connector on them to be listened now People can buy Bluetooth headphones and enjoy them and sometimes prefer them. So there are a couple of key advantages there So why usb-c? Well, the ports already there for charging And can handle audio as the D the DAC and the amp move out into the headphones or adapter That's one of the things that saves you space. So you've already got this port You can just reuse it You don't have to add anything more to it and it lets the manufacturer include headphones without having to include more Expensive Bluetooth headphones. You can still include some earbuds. They're just usb-c and digital audio arguably And this is arguably you can argue against this too But and some people like oh, this is gonna be better sound. You're gonna get better sound out of this Some people will not agree with that Here's why everybody's mad though usb-c headphones are more expensive usually Because they have that DAC and amp in them Although usb can support analog audio However with power concerns involved analog audio might not sound as good as analog audio from a headphone jack Anyway, the fact that you can support analog audio or not support analog audio does mean you've got cable confusion And boy is there lots of usb-c cable confusion without even involving headphones Active or passive usb-c cables do different things for instance You get your usb-c headphones from a one-plus phone They don't work on the pixel 3xl and people say well This is not a replacement for the headphone jack where every one of my headphones worked in every headphone jack out there Plus the sound quality of usb-c Arguments, yeah, sound quality just doesn't measure up to Bluetooth or analog Generally for usb-c. So There we go, Sarah. There are the arguments. What do you think? Well, it's money I When usb-c entered my life and everyone said oh, I can't believe they got rid of the headphone jack This is crazy. I was like, I don't know apple gave me a little converter works fine Long as you don't lose it doesn't really change my life all that much I did not feel the outrage that many people felt. However, I have a really good friend She she works and in our business She does a lot of phone call stuff and her thing is like I cannot charge my phone and Also use my headphone jack at the same time. Now, of course, you'd say maybe you have some Bluetooth options wireless options Don't worry about it.  I I don't know I Feel like the the industry sort of goes in the direction. It's going to go in Something like this if it doesn't catch on to the point that there are now articles being written about, you know We didn't see a lot of usb-c stuff at CES, which tends to indicate Trends right in the marketplace. Okay. Does that mean that people are I don't know really and against the technology I don't know. I I I'd love to see a headphone jack just because I have so many headphones that do need a converter But again, the converters work perfectly fine. There may be there may be a An audio hit. I'm not hearing that again most of the time. I'm not listening to rich beautiful audio in that way I'd I'd prefer to use my speakers at home. So I might not be Exactly the right person to ask for this, but I don't know Tom I mean, is this something that is changing your life one way or another? Yeah for me. It was when decent Bluetooth headphones that in particular the AirPods although there you don't have to get the ones from Apple now The fact the Verge has a review of some TCL $15 Bluetooth earphones that they say have sound fantastic So you can get some pretty good good headphones for cheap and and I would say to your friend I bet the Bluetooth headphones that you could try today are already better than the ones you tried the last time you tried them Like it's probably yeah, we saw a lot of Bluetooth headphones at CES Even though we didn't see a lot of USB see so I think the switch to Bluetooth has made it So I would rather use wireless headphones when I answer a phone then plug something in It's just faster and easier And and I don't get the headphone Tangled or anything so I prefer that and now I don't miss the headphone jack most of the time Except when I'm doing this when I'm doing podcasting and I want to pull sound out of something I'm like, ah, there's no headphone jack that compatibility becomes a problem But for most of my daily life it's not a problem anymore because of Bluetooth and I think that's probably where this is going where Bluetooth headphones will become More common for people on the devices that don't have the jack and USB-C will be the janky included headphones that you have to use until you get Bluetooth headphones or if you're in between your Bluetooth headphones Because it was free and it came there, but I don't think that will become a category that people seek I think at this point What would the messaging be for a company that keeps USB-C, right? You know, nobody likes it, but we still have it, you know They're not gonna say that you have to see port anyway, right or like an apple's case Why would you stop supporting it? Like that would be even more ridiculous. So you just leave it there, I think Well, thanks to everybody who Participates in our subreddit. Sometimes we talk about USB-C stories Sometimes we talk about other things you can submit your own stories that we should talk about on on either of our shows either Daily Tech news show or at Daily Tech headlines and you can vote on others at Daily Tech news show reddit.com We're also on Facebook Facebook comm slash groups slash Daily Tech news show All right, let's move on to the thing of the day We missed Chris Christensen the amateur traveler, but he's back with news about airlines testing blockchain tech Antiquiting this is Chris Christensen from amateur traveler with another tech in travel minute I'm a little bit of a blockchain skeptic, but apparently United Airlines isn't they've just done an experiment with blockchain With a company called ARC testing the use of blockchain to potentially provide a quote a secure distributed and immutable Transaction record that will improve their business process over that exist today Their claim is that this should simplify the booking process for corporate travelers and improve receipt collection for expense reports One of the reasons I'm skeptical with somebody who's been known to fly over a hundred thousand miles a year is I'm not sure that that's a problem But we shall see I'm Chris Christensen from amateur traveler. I I'm gonna guess that it's more about saving United some dollars on the back end Then it is about helping you out Chris that if they do end up implementing this that might be why All right, let's check out the mailbag We got an email from Mike in what he calls dusty Saudi Arabia Mike says let me just express my Disappointment and Google's announcement that is ending production of Chromecast audio I love being able to add Chromecast capabilities to my existing speakers and Reconfigure them as I want as I as I want I move a lot And I end up in a range of weird home designs and having my own speakers rather than a crappy Google Home mini speaker an expensive full-sized Google Home, I hope they change their mind or add an aux jack to the mini Yeah, again, I think this is one of those the where Chromecast audio was kind of a middle step And yeah is more people are just gonna buy connected speakers Or or buy something like a sonos that will turn their existing speakers into connected speakers and Google realizes Just not selling enough for those Chromecast audios to keep them around and and Mike Mike acknowledge this But in case you're confused out there Google is not stopping support. So if you own a Chromecast audio, you'll still get To use it. They're just not selling new ones anymore. They're not me Well, thank you folks for supporting us for five years or more and as a way of saying Thank you. We're doing a few things at the higher tiers We're gonna do all kinds of cool stuff. So don't worry about that But people who stay with patreon at our top tiers for three months starting January 2nd We'll get merch with lens five-year anniversary art on it advisors get a poster Master level folks get a mug and if you're at the analyst or advisor level We're gonna send you some stickers as well Although that's kind of we're kind of doing that separately outside of the merch thing I'll explain that in good day internet if you want to know more about that But again, if you upgrade to those levels, you could get a mug at the master level or a poster At the at the advisor level and co-executive producer and analysts are the ones who will also get a sticker It's all available for you to read about at patreon.com slash DTNs slash If you have feedback for us our email address is feedback at daily tech news show comm keep them coming We'd love to hear what you we have in your mind We're also live Monday through Friday if you can join us Please do for 30 p.m. Eastern 21 30 UTC and find out more at daily tech news show comm slash live back tomorrow with Patrick Beja talk to you then This show is part of the frog pants network get more at frog pants calm Yeah, so it ended up with this is an alpha program this merchandise thing and it ended up that it was going to be too expensive to do the stickers Through through the patreon merch and this is helping them to figure it out. This is you know I went in eyes wide open that this is an alpha So we're going to send the stickers from the daily tech news show comm slash store to anybody at the co-executive producer or Analyst level this month. So we said we'd get your stickers. You'll still get stickers It just won't be part of this alpha program, but we're leaving the posters in the mug there to try that out So That's why the change in that and if you have any questions just feedback at daily tech news show comm I'll do my best to answer them What should we possibly call this Let's just take a look see Show about that chat round net if you're listening or watching egg that cracked Instagram print me a spine Not even an original egg I like the spine stuff actually print me a spine is pretty good. Let me a spine is good I mean and and please do my life on the USBC list Once you go no headphone jack you don't go back or do you You sometimes do Yeah, I keep going back and forth personally Yeah, my my yeah, that that's my I went ahead and voted for print me a spine The egg that crack Instagram is funny, but you know, it's There have been a lot of egg jokes made at this point in the day. I I'll be honest if we were Really doing this right the egg that cracked Instagram is probably gonna get more attention but I Will sleep better at night knowing that I promoted a Advancement that will like help right walk again Let's stay true to our science roots And get us all some spines. Let's stay true to our blonde roots Yeah, or I Think you're speaking for yourself If you're talking about when I was younger my roots were definitely blond These days they're they're paid for my roots are not as blonde as they used to be Yeah, I'm a little darker over the years. Yeah.  I'm like, I mean what happens to most blonde kids Me too sort of turn into sort of a dirty blonde and then a light brown right bright blonde as a kid Oh, yeah, and and honestly my dad was too according to my grandma There's the pictures were all black and white back then so we have no proof But but my dad by the time he was my age his hair was black Like it was not it was not even blonde. It was dark dark brown. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, you and I probably have the same thing my parents were both Yeah, like Dirk brunette people The fact that they had a blonde kid with freckles never made any sense to anybody Yeah Some evidence And nobody in our family has it hmm interesting a cousin of mine and I have similar noses and No one else has that nose. You're we're like You know, we keep the same family The output that wave is uploaded Now I was about to say like when my oldest daughter was born her eyes were blue. I Think that's pretty common with babies. Most baby Blue or gray and then they kind of change. Mm-hmm. Oh, that was the thing now for a I don't know for a half Asian kid Maybe not. Yeah, maybe not even I thought all babies were no, oh, no, I was born with dark eyes I actually was too when I was born. I had black hair and dark eyes I looked Different than I do wings. Yeah, I Also had wings and I was a dragon Okay Not all babies have blue eyes a baby is more likely to be born with blue eyes and then have them change Yeah, but many babies, especially African Asian and Hispanic descent are More likely to be born with brown eyes, although even then they can be born with You just you see a lot of new born photos where people go When look at those eyes and you're like, they're gonna change like don't look at me Usually do not all the time but most of the time they do. Yeah, so is it still uploading? No, that's why I told you it's all done. I know the reason I asked is because there's a There's two with the exact same number two and five One is the regular and the others the output the output is the levelated one. That's the only one you should ever use Okay, just we didn't change that did we well before you just gave me a wave You didn't give it. Oh, maybe one day. I forgot to levelate it for you. Sorry They're both they're both up now, you don't have to use the levelated one You don't want to level it you don't want to level or I guess it could levelated himself Yeah, maybe I was not levelating them at the end of the last week because I was tired. I don't claim to ever be consistent Well, you know, I put all our headlines into the template this morning after not doing that for two years So well, that was a funny is is Sarah Black me is like, oh, I'm so sorry. I put all the headlines in the template by accident I was like, oh, I can fix that real fast because I've done that a lot Right, right. I've gotten very good at fixing that and I've done that before in other spreadsheets where I'm like, oh man Which I actually what I what I did in previous sort of rundowns like we use now is I've got the template and then at the end of all the Cells, I have like a save one just in case like I'm really desperate and I and I bury it so that if you really need it it's still there But yeah, I felt stupid this morning because I was like, hold on a second because I was publishing to the web like wait Where's my date? Oh man, I put it in template Such a rookie move But when I went in there, there was also a regular version. So you must have already changed it Well, I duplicated it. Yeah, so that it would have the right dates to publish, but yeah, my template was still screwed up Have to go to the pharmacy and I have to go to the mailbox and it's raining I have to I don't have to go to a pharmacy or a mailbox, but I do have to walk my dog who I I mean at this point I notice you must be in distress Because you haven't done things that you do normally at 8 a.m. You went out Uh, we went out before the show, but he didn't go with the last time he went. Sorry. Oh, uh yesterday time That's yeah poor kid. What time?  It was bizarre Um, so we were walking around about 9 p.m. Last night. Oh, he's um, yeah, okay. That's a long time a long time No, I'm like, thank you for not having an accident, but I know you want to Yeah, but he goes outside and he looks at the rain and he's like I don't like this I don't want to do this And then you don't want to stay out there and make him because it's raining and you don't want to be out There either. I mean this morning we were Soaked even with his poncho where I'm like, okay.  He was like, mm-hmm. Want to go? I want to go back inside He went right back to bed Poor kid. Oh this he's like my bladder can take it. I'm staying in he says I got a big strong bladder I'm a big boy with a big bladder Mm-hmm The things we do for our pets my goodness. I don't know if you guys saw my tweet this morning It was so funny. I there was a notification very vague from the photos app on my iPhone. It said Uh new notification from photos from like what and I look at it And the photos app has put together an algorithmic Folder based on pictures of my pets called Fluffy friends 2018 And it's all pictures of sam lucy and otis And it like it was perfect. It's fluffy friends Fluffy friends 2018 even though a few of the photos are from 2019 But most of them are from last year or even 2017 And I have to say I looked through it. It was perfect. I wasn't in any of them. It was only my pets Uh, even though I've taken pictures of other people's pets, whatever, but uh It it gave me a a fuzzy fluffy feeling even though otis is like I'm not fluffy That's the cats that are fluffy. I'm just sleek Yeah Anyway, so I I tweeted it and a bunch of people said like that's weird because google photos did the exact same thing where I got a notification this morning that they uh The the algorithm had had compiled all of the what it thought was pet photos into a folder and sent me a notification Are you sure you're not talking about google photos now? I'm like positive There's collusion happening within the pet community in uh the uh mobile apps for for google photos and and photos on ios It cannot recognize Oh, wait. No, it it has Sorry, there was soya was in a picture of jango, but when I click on it, it just opens up pictures of jango Although one of the pictures is of me and eileen in the uh north korean demilitarized zone Did you guys look particularly fluffy? And one picture is of soya and rey not jango so That's not really working Probably just dogs. Why why and this picture of me and eileen in the dnc is showing up in all of the dog albums that are auto-generated by google I'm not even gonna unpack that one. Yeah Seriously, it's salting google. Yeah You ever felt more like an animal? The scene of the sarah lane folder that is like almost exclusively pictures of you at ces This weekend.  Yeah Yeah, they know me Yeah, it was funny because I was sort of like what is this notification and then when I looked at the folder I was like I love these photos. Oh my gosh. These are these are my favorite photos There's an album created of the guard the south korean guard at the dmz because eileen took like three pictures of me Standing next to him and how it recognized him and created an album just for him Because he's in those three pictures. You should send those photos to him. Yeah might be nice Yeah for posterity, you know, she might appreciate that here. He is at work. Absolutely Yeah Doing a good job. Your son is working hard Yeah, I don't see any auto-generated Pet well, well, that's funny because I would assume you've got Plenty of stuff and you're Using an iPhone in your photos And so many people on water responded and said oh, I got that too fluffy friends google and apple and neither one of them Maybe they don't think ray and swear fluffy enough Oh, it did create a las vegas folder, but that's easy. It just goes by yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Well, fine fine that way. Yeah Photo apps some yeah some real favoritism going on And in mobile app world Not all babies It is interesting how it does the facial recognition though. I want to go back to that Yeah, it is because that's Okay, so I've got photos It's weird too. It's like there are folders that I'm like, this is actually really cool. Like there's a home folder It's my previous apartment not the one I live in now, but Because once I was in there, I was like So it's got you know, I like I looked at all the you know, all my old apartment, you know And it it always kind of had this one Window in the background, which is obviously something that started drawing from after a while which is Doesn't it's not surprising because so many of my cat photos were taken in front of that window because they loved it But it's like okay. I probably wouldn't have put this collection together myself But I'm kind of happy it exists So there's a tom married album which has pictures of me. There's an eileen reverie album pictures of eileen There's a veronica belmont. There's a rodrigo reverie. That's eileen's dad. Then there's soyer jango re june are our niece eileen's sister's daughter You my nephew benjamin bryan brushwood roger chang justin robert young my sister-in-law christin Then it gets weird like all of this is normal Then there's a picture of people in your life jango And in this album are pictures of ray pictures of eileen and soyer pictures of jango and so here like So this is yeah, this is where it started to break down like we recognize dog Personally dog, but not a correct dog. Yeah, and it has separate albums with the just the dogs that it's recognizing Uh-huh, then there's my brother-in-law my sister Lilo my sister-in-law's dog patrick bezia ellie roger's daughter Then there's another dog one.  Then there's one album. That's just a picture of me in my all blacks hat from 2006 What is it called? It doesn't have a name. Oh Just a photo. Yeah Oh my gosh, there's an album of my my nephew's friend That was in a bunch of pictures of my nephew from the wedding and it pulled him out. That's weird Yeah, some of these are they sort of defy My favorite is the south korean guard because his avatar Picture is amazing because it kind of cuts him out with just blue behind him. He looks great his mother needs this Yeah Find her Your kid is doing great Here i'll hold it up to the video the camera so you can see it Oh, oh, yeah That's a lovely photo right All right. Thanks everybody for watching the video. We are going to Pop away now to audio land. So audio listeners stick around. There's more to come


I would like to introduce, do you want to go by Major? What are you like? I'd like to introduce Major Bob Clark. He's with the US Army Judge Advocate General Corps. And he's going to be discussing precedence in computer and internet security law. So let's give it to Bob. Good evening. I'm on East Coast time, and it's my bedtime. So the fact I said good evening is pretty good as opposed to good afternoon. And that's it. I hope you enjoyed it. And we'll be back next year because nothing's happened in computer security. All right, the agenda. We're going to look at some of the issues of the past year, what's happened as far as computer and internet security law, some of the precedents, a few of the prosecutions and the arrests and the indictments that happened in the past year. I'm required to give this fun little disclaimer. It's a great little thing. What my bosses want you to make clear is that any errors that I give in this presentation remain with me. I'm responsible for all the mistakes. And anything I say here solely resides with Bob Clark, US citizen, as opposed to any representative of any possible government agency. Again, my name is Robert Clark. For those of you who don't speak English and speak code, it's there. I am a government hack. The nice thing about being a government hack, it's interesting to see in this forum what you've got. I'm always curious to see how many techies are interested in the legal piece. Scott Moulton is talking right before this. And I ran in there because I knew I would be talking now. And in his bio, he was a civil suit for actually excessive pinging. And it held that that's not access to a computer system. And when you get people who are involved in that, you go talk to them because they'll have some great war stories on exactly how to talk to lawyers about the things you do. A talk I'm giving tomorrow night will have part of the pitch. It says facts are king. And that's something that every lawyer is taught in and out. Facts are king. In this field, very important, your facts are king.  And you've got electronic monitoring things that can all come into play. So it's very important that you take and explain to your lawyer in excruciating, painfully great detail at a third grade level so they can understand it because we're going to have to take it and go explain it to a judge at a first grade level. Because he's going to write his opinion or his clerk will write it at a kindergartner level. And then all the lawyers in the world are going to take that and read that at a, well you fill in the blank on that one, so. The one thing, EFF, I was joking with them, we were out at dinner the other night and I was joking with these guys and I said, hey, can I have a hat? So I can go give my presentation and they won't give me a hat. They wanted 30 bucks. And I thought, 30 bucks, Christ, that's expensive. But they're a nonprofit so I can understand that. But they've got that Bill of Rights card that you can get and buy from them. Years ago, one of my first bosses gave me a copy, a little pocket copy of the Constitution. And it's a great little document and we're going to talk about it in a little bit. And I have it on the corner of my desk and the reason I have it there is that's the reason I'm a government lawyer. I work for a judge, going through law school and I used to see attorneys take the facts and warp them to their own weird image. And it's an amazing thing when two people would stand up and you were positive, they were not talking about the same case.  I want to be able to go and at least do the right thing at the end of the day. And I know that's a strange thing to say with a couple of things we're going to look at today. But I don't work for those three of our agencies that might be somewhere on the East Coast between Pennsylvania and Virginia. And so we'll talk about those things but that's why I did become a government hack is because I really do at the end of the day get to do the right thing, hopefully. Lawyers, well let me go with a couple of things. First off, what's not here? I have no information on area 51. My claim check had it on there so I kind of thought there was something going on. I'm staying at the Luxor. I thought maybe I was going to lose my stuff but some of the technology I've heard is pretty cool but I've got nothing to fill in on that. I apologize. When you talk to lawyers, this is the one aspect you're going to hate and I apologize but this area is unsettled. We are trying to keep up to speed with this. There are very few precedents. We're stealing from the physical world to bring it into the virtual world. You hear that a lot. So before I started I did want to give you some good solid advice that nobody but nobody will debate that is settled advice. We're in the desert so wear sunscreen. It's a proven fact this will keep you from getting cancer so that's one thing. We're in the desert again. I understand this is a little different because people are going to be drinking a lot. You get dehydrated so drink water. It's proven to help you out. And drink while you're here because it makes these presentations go a lot better and the to drink minimum I really like so in Try the Veal I'll be here all week. All right I was thinking how to jump off on this and how to get started and I actually had a different order on the materials that I presented and a part of the materials. I gave you a lot of information. There's a lot of words on the slide.  And on the slides I've been in many presentations and I've always felt there's a case site up there and that's it.  And that's why the material will have a lot of information. It's six o'clock. We're two hours late. I know nobody wants to read now. I don't want to read. So we'll talk through them so you don't have to be minimum amount of reading on that. And one other aspect I've been told that my voice has a certain tone level that has a habit of putting people asleep of a certain diminished intellect. So if the person next to you is falling asleep you're smarter than they are. And the real worst part is if I fall asleep while I'm doing this, well then we all know who the real smart people in the room are on that. And I wanted to jump in on a case that was relevant to my audience and I felt what better way to start with cases that deal with probation for violators. People have been prosecuted for computer crimes and what they're calling special skills. One other aspect, if your name's not up here and I don't mention your case specifically, please don't jump up and shout or anything because this is probably a violation of your probation. And there are some federal officers wandering around. So I'd hate to have that thing where it's just a mess. When we're talking, this is a neat thing, special skills. If you're not familiar with what this actually is, is it's when you're getting sentenced for committing the crime, if you use some kind of special skills or knowledge to commit the crime, they elevate your sentence. You know, it's a great way to put your way for longer. And in United States versus Proctner, this guy basically he got, it was an identity theft and he challenged on appeal his use of special skills where his sentence got a two level enhancement. Well the nice thing, and when you read a court opinion you always like to hear this when you're reviewing it. In his written statement to law enforcement, that's your first tip, okay? Don't do a written statement to law enforcement, okay? You know, it's not a good thing. But he wrote down that after accessing the internet via Telnet and MIRC slash PIRCH and accessing websites, order logs via cart 32, scan 20 some cards, and it goes on for what he did and he said, look, anybody can write CGI scripts. This is, you know, script kiddies can do this. So it's not really any expert thing that I've done here. And the judge said, you know, and I love this, it might reasonably take with a grain of salt Proctner's assertion that even a novice internet surfer could do what he indicated. But here's the thing you guys need to understand. A skill can be special even though the activity to which the skill is applied is mundane. The critical question is whether the defendant's skill elevates him to a level of knowledge and proficiency that eclipses that possessed by the general public. So, with that in DOJ's hands, you may just want to consider that the next time you're pursuing this activity. One of the other aspects they look at with special skills is how you obtain that skill. Typically, one of the things they cite for special skills is they look at training that requires pilots, lawyers. Hey, thank you. Good judges, doctors, accountants, chemists, and demolition experts. Those are your special skills. Now, they say you do not need formal training for this. This can be self-taught, which is kind of the neat thing that really, you know, kind of hits on your field. So that's one of the aspects of special skills. Probation, supervision. There's a lot of cases out there. Nothing really recent that talks about supervised probation and the requirements that they can put on you once you've been released from your halfway house on that. But they can put monitoring stuff on your internet there to see what you're doing and what you're looking at. As a matter of fact, one of the guys that's up here, good old, whoever wants to give this a shot for good old Yugnokovich, his probation officer just grabbed his machine without any probable cause or anything to search it because he's entitled to do that and found child porn all over it and so the guy was headed back to jail again. If you're gonna commit these crimes, one thing, this guy, United States versus King, was basically prosecuted for selling firearms illegally. And while he was in jail, they get to supervise everything he wants. Well, he wanted to get some books on computer programming and bring that in and in the jail, the warden didn't want to give him these books because the idea was, well, if I give him these books, he could hack the warden, the prison computer systems and cause all kind of havoc. And the judge looked and said, you mean to tell me that the prisoner's computer system is hooked up to the prison system's computers? And they said, well, no, but it could be. And the judge said, look, he's in jail for firearms. We're trying to encourage rehabilitation and the fact that he wants to learn computer programming is rehabilitation. So we're gonna let him have the computer books. I figured that kind of works both ways. So if you guys go to jail for computer stuff, you can get books on importing firearms and selling them illegally. You know, it's one of those things. All right, let's talk about this three letter agency. If you want to. I've got about another 40 minutes. This could take up 39 of them, depending if you want. What I'm going to present and what we're gonna talk about here are the positions of what's going on with the surveillance and the NSA stuff. Let's go back to my first slide for who I work for. The last thing I want is this gentleman sitting up front here that I think I remember being part of the press from Black Hat last year and the Cisco gate press conference that was had, I'd like to avoid that. So I don't want to have a separate press conference. I'm gonna set out the positions that everybody's talking about. And I guess the reason I do that is EFF's speaking after me on this one. And so you can go in with them. It's an interesting aspect when you look at their website, and again, this is all lawyers. They have no reasonable basis. And you hear that all the time. And in the legal world, if you have no reasonable basis whatsoever, within 30 days you follow a motion for summary judgment. The judge comes back and says, yeah, looking at the facts as well as they could possibly present it to me, they can't win. So you're right, they have no reasonable basis. So clearly, there are a lot of positions going on here. So we'll look at these. I put this up here because some people like this symbol better than the other one. Take a look, I gotta have you read. I apologize on this one. In the military, I'm required to do an intelligence oversight training annually to my entire organization. And we do it twice a year. And I'm not even an intelligence organization. But we deal with US person's data. And the reason we have intelligence oversight in the government was because of this. Now you look at this and you think about what's going on today. And you think, OK, I can see that. All right, not a problem. I can see they're busy, you know, the war on terror. That was the 1976 church report after the Vietnam War. So we're talking the nice thing. Again, I'm a lawyer because I can't do math. But that's 30 years ago. See, even I can figure that out by looking at the numbers. And so after the Vietnam War, and we had the Church Commission because we were doing some domestic national security, there was a race between Congress and the executive branch for the government to regulate how we do intelligence oversight. How we're going to collect information on US person's. And basically, an executive order came out. If you're in the biz and you want to be cool, you got to be cool where you can be cool.  You have all the knowledge. And God love you because, like I said, I want to talk to you in those excruciating details so I can understand it. It's a great passion and I really respect the knowledge you folks have. In this thing, I get very few chances to be cool, but the executive order is one, two, three, three, three. If you want to be cool, you can say EO12 triple three. Okay, repeat after me. EO12 triple three. See, it's a cool thing to do when you're in the biz, buzz and you're in the know. And it regulates how we're going to get and collect information on US person's. Now, the operation chaos was actually a CIA operation back then. Going in and looking at mail. And again, they had a database. You know, it's funny. They had a database of 1.5 million names. Now, there's 250 million people in the United States. You know, that's, okay, I won't go there. What we're going on and what's going on with the NSA? There are, it's a clash of the Constitution. The Constitution says the president is going to be commander in chief of the military. But Congress is going to have some powers too. This is a constant clash that's been going on. Now, the main thing that I didn't want to have left out was my favorite little guys here, the third branch. Because you're talking about the president saying, I can collect this information, I have to. You have Congress saying, no, we're telling you how you can collect this information. Well, that left a little judicial branch out there saying, geez guys, we want to play too. And years ago, in a case, as a matter of fact, in Dover versus Gonzalez, that just came out, they were talking about some aspects. And they're talking about what is the judicial review of both the president when he's doing something in his commander in chief hat. And it says that heavily circumscribed role for the courts, the government has suggested, instead of noting that the US Constitution ensures a role for all three branches when individual liberties are at stake. The notion that the judiciary should abdicate its decision-making responsibility to the executive branch whenever national security concerns are present is extremely troubling. So you're going to have our good old judicial branch looking at this to resolve this. The court recognizes that the executive is entitled to great deference on issues of national security. But that's where the judicial branch is going to come in looking at that. When you are talking about the powers of the president, and I'm sorry, I'm putting you a little bit through law school, we're going to try to move through this and I'm going to get to some other aspects. The president's powers from the Constitution, the case that really covers this one, deals with, it's called Youngstown Steel and Tube. The president's powers are supposed to be at his highest when he's acting as Commander-in-Chief and they are very broad. Again, you got to love this when you're looking at the authority that's being quoted as from a 1970 memorandum, particularly by Charles W. Coulson, who did time. You guys might all be too young to understand that, but there was this thing called Watergate. For those of you who don't know what that was, Nixon, it was really messy, people went to jail. I think Coulson was one of them. So it's nice that we're relying on him saying, oh, Prez, you got all the power in the world, go at it. Now, foreign intelligence. Foreign intelligence is not assigned in the Constitution to the president. So again, while this is a broad power, you're looking at what's the scope of the president's authority to commit armed forces or this, and there's some interesting aspects that the power of the president, he can seize private property. He can regulate prices and commodities. He can control rents. We can do that draft thing. He can take over railroads and operate them. So you see, his powers can be held to be very, very broad. And there's been some recent cases about Hamadi versus Rumsfeld with everything that's going on that has kind of specifically stated that they're very broad. Now, when you are looking at these things, you've got to look at the requirements to gather intelligence. And way back when, the case that really was talking about domestically gathering intelligence and information, I like personally because it's the United States versus the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan, and I just happen to be from the Eastern District of Michigan. This either goes by the Plalaman, it's called the Keith case for all of us in the legal world. And the nice aspect was some really nice students from my alma mater went and decided to blow up a building there that was getting funding from a three letter agency. And these U of M students were surveilled under foreign intelligence, but the information was taken to prosecute them in a criminal court. Now, at this time, FISA didn't exist, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. So collecting the information was done under the president's inherent authority to collect information on foreign intelligence. Because every president from Nixon, all the way back to Washington, has done it. All of them.  I wanna make sure you're confident in your Supreme Court justices. They said, intelligence requires stealth and secrecy. That was good. And they also said traditional criminal law warrant requirements might not apply in even in internal security surveillance. So these are our leading cases on this. Now, I mentioned this Youngstown Sheet and Tubing case. This is the case that's gonna tell you where the president's acting with his authority. When he acts, and he's got Congressional Authorities Act, Congress stands up and you actually hear them say, damn, go at it, man, we're right behind you. He is at his highest power, Congressional and Constitutionally. At that second level is when the president acts and everybody's standing there doing the E.F. Hutton thing. And you don't hear anything.  That's where he's at his next highest level. The lowest level when he operates act is what you might surmise.  All right, when Congress says, you're not acting properly. So it makes a lot of sense on the three levels that he can operate at. So, where does that put us today? As you might imagine, what the president is relying on, the executive branch is relying on, is that authorization for the use of military force that came out after 9-11. Now, when we're looking at this, you're looking at Hamadi versus Rumsfeld, which is one of the cases that deal with detainees. And five justices concluded that the authorization for the use of military force authorized the president to detain citizens of the United States, that it was fundamentally an incident of waging war. And they also stated, a fundamental incident of waging intelligence activity constitute to use the language of Hamadi clearly and unmistakably authorizes such activities directed against the communications of our enemy. Accordingly, the president's authority is at its maximum. And it excites that Youngstown steel case. This was the Supremes in Hamadi versus Rumsfeld, which is an interesting aspect. So, they're looking at Justice Jackson's three-part test and saying authorization for use of military force, Congress spoke, you're at your highest level for this. Well, that's an interesting aspect because has Congress been silent in the president's authority to do this? Now, the fallout that you've heard, not everybody's standing up saying he shouldn't be doing this to the congressman saying that. What I'm talking about is actually when you look at the FISA and foreign intelligence surveillance, that Keith case I had up there where we were spying on US citizens under ECPA, which is the Electronic Communication and Privacy Act, there was a third section in there that gave the president his inherent authority to spy on US citizens if it was related to a foreign intelligence and national security. After the Keith case, the Supreme Court said, you were spying on US citizens for a foreign intelligence purpose. Okay, that's cool, that's not a problem. But then it became domestic and you were doing domestic national security warrantless without any judicial review, that's not okay. And they threw the evidence out. So, these guys find students from U of M and got to go back to school. And when I went there, I never saw this crater where the bomb went off, but fortunately I'm not that old. And so the judges at that time said, if you're gonna do this, Congress might wanna open their mouth and come up with something. They just suggested it to them, which they always do. And that's when they wrote the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Now, this is the fun aspect. You have the executive branch looking at after FISA was passed, they're saying basically there have been, all of the courts that have considered this issue appears to say the president has inherent authority to do this. Well, what they fail to specify is the cases they're looking at are pre-FISA cases. So, now it becomes after FISA and this was United States versus, I guess it's Coyomizhan. It was a 1991 case out of the Ninth Circuit. Now, if anybody here understands where the Ninth Circuit is from, one guy does over here. I'm sorry, I usually have prizes to give out, but my pay was scaled down and I don't have prizes to give out, I apologize. See me afterwards, I buy you a drink. The Ninth Circuit's out of California and it has a lot of fun with the US government. A lot of fun, which is great because I got all the buddies in DOJ and it's great when they piss them off and you can see them running around with their hair on fire. And basically, they said in this case that FISA eliminated the exemption that was in the executive branch to spy and the executive branch has no inherent authority to undertake electronic surveillance even in national security and counterintelligence cases. They replaced it with a detailed set of procedures with some exceptions that are nearly identical to the provisions of Title III. So, they're saying Congress spoke. Congress is regulating how you're gonna do this. So, now, you know, this is the great aspect of being, you know, a lawyer. You know, we get to say before President has the inherent authority, so he's okay. Now I've gotten to say Congress specifically spoke, so it doesn't? Well, guess what? One of the exemptions is you have to spy according to FISA or under some other statute. And now, you've got the executive branch saying that statute was the authorization for the use of military force. And that's where it sits right now. So, if your email's being read because you're coming from a foreign source, that's where you're sitting right now. The fun experts on this are speaking after me, EFF. Now, I was wondering, you know, what I would do up here as a government hack if someone bellowed out, hey, what do you think about the EFF? And it's a very simple answer. Giving power money to the government is kind of like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. Only a fool would trust either. So, with that said, I think some of the greatest organizations we've got are the EFF and the ACLU. All right.  I get to do the right thing at the end of the day. I get to write my legal briefs and stand up and do my oral argument in front of, and, you know, before you guys mind, oral argument's something where we speak to a panel of judges and nothing else. Because I got to talk about whacking and joy writing later, and I didn't want anybody else going down there, so. But when we get to do these presentations, if I can't win at the end of the day based on the legal briefs and the arguments we make, then that's the way the Constitution was set up. And so that's a great thing, and they'll be talking a little bit later after me, and you can ask them on their views. Now, the interesting aspect, on that case, and they'll talk about it, you know, the state secret thing didn't fly, so it's still active and still going from that aspect. And they'll talk to you more about that. All right, let's not jump to the end. So we did that, we talked, sorry, talked through it. All right, other things that happened this past year. This is an interesting aspect. I don't want to go in, you guys probably know the technical ends and out of this a hell of a lot better than I do, because I was trying to read this and understand everything that was going on with the root kit that was put on there. And the settlement agreement that went in was a wonderful little settlement.  The aspect that I had on this one is I do have some sources, and not that I'm quoting any sources, but I said, why weren't these guys prosecuted? And because, I mean, hey, this is an unauthorized access to a lot of computer systems out there. And the fun aspect is, are any of you guys system administrators that had to deal with this being loaded onto your corporate or work network or anything? I heard a lot of stories about this, and I thought, man, that would have really sucked to have been these guys.  Because, you know, you didn't see the warning on there. But I said, why weren't these guys prosecuted? And the answer I got was because you had a lot of state attorney generals doing civil suits. You had the big civil suit, again, worked out and helped out with the EFF going on that. So they had that going. So I'm sitting there thinking, oh, okay, great. So, if I hack city bank and get millions and millions of dollars from all the other customers, and the customers file a class action against me, I might have to pay some money back, but I won't go to jail for this. I'm thinking, that's pretty cool. Good deal. You know, I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna work that out when my lawyer make that argument. Well, again, think about DOJ. They have sections. They have intellectual property, and they have, you know, they're computer crimes guys in the same shop that are prosecuting. So why wasn't a case opened up? Who's working with DOJ intellectual property? Any organization jumped to your mind? A four letter agency. Starts with an R. Some of you are shouting it out. I leave it at that. There was another spyware case that came out, and the interesting aspect on this was, it was done under a trespass to chattel theory. There's a lot of aspects, and I'm gonna be looking at the theory of trespass to chattel tomorrow in my pitch, and I'm gonna go and hopefully we'll get through as much of the material as we can. If I start cruising fast, I'll start talking fast, try to listen slow, and we'll get through some stuff.  Tomorrow night, we're gonna get into the aspect that people like. I'm allowed to defend my property to some extent. I can't spring a lot of shotguns, so when you walk through my front door and open it up, it blows you away right here. But I kinda am at your ankle, and so when you stand on this side, you're six four, and this side, you're five three. The problem with that case is then you sue me, and I have to pay you money, so maybe I should go back up to here. So, in this one, good old direct revenue was monitoring where you're surfing on the web. And they bundled it in there, you didn't know they were doing it.  And this one, the neat thing was the Newsweek reported that in one month 1.5 billion pop-up ads came up on this. And just as it reached its class certification, it did settle, and they had to come out with a new end users agreement, plus an additional explanation of what's going on here, plus the click yes, if you wanna continue, which again, you guys know how well our users are gonna read that and understand that. So that's how that one settled before it went out there with good old direct revenue. I thought it was neat, but it was another spyware case that was going on on that. This is up here only because whenever you can see the Attorney General's name in a case, it's a great case to talk about. In this, both the Southern District of New York and Connecticut ruled that national security letters were unconstitutional. National security letters are where I go to your librarian and say, I would like all the books that you have checked out in the last year. Now, the neat thing about this is George Christian, great name, must have been possessed with a kind of swashbuckling spirit not usually associated with librarians. He went and talked to one of those four letter agencies, the ACLU, and they got involved and held that in this particular case, they were gonna do this without any disclosure to the individual whose records were gonna be gotten. Now, you gotta love courts to some extent. The nice thing about appellate courts is if I can pass on something or find a way to resolve a case without ruling on it, this is great and I'll do it. And that's what happened in this case. After this case, when it went to appeal on this, the judge basically used section 2709 of the US Patriot Act and believe it or not, I've gotta go this, who here knows or could tell me what that acronym stands for? The US Patriot Act. Every time I'm at DOJ conferences, the same DOJ attorney asks that question and every time I still can't answer it, but it's the United and Strengthening America by providing appropriate tools required to intercept and obstruct terrorism act of 2001.  So it's a wonderful thing. This thing was amended after these cases were filed which kind of took out some of the aspects of it being unconstitutional and the aspect of it was is that there was no judicial review in these pre, the new statute that came out. After that, they put in the new statute that they would go through and having a judicial review. That was great. That takes care of the fourth amendment aspect. The first amendment aspect of non-disclosure or free association, free speech was never resolved. So what did the government do in the Connecticut case? Judge, don't worry. We'll go back and tell the person who it is that we're gonna get his stuff. That renders this issue moot. You don't even have to rule on it. And to judge being a good government employee, you know, one of the fastest people in the world because he can work eight hours a day and be home by three o'clock in the afternoon, work at nine to five, be at home at three. He said, good idea dismissed. So that got kicked back to the lower courts. I'm sure a lot of you guys have heard about the Wi-Fi crime in Illinois, this poor schmuck that some state attorney decided to make an example of and prosecuted him for, this is the Dunesbury cartoon that I had last year where the guy's sitting out on the side of the road, you know, using his neighbor's Wi-Fi. Hey, you using my Wi-Fi? Hey, it's a free country. You know, hey, this is free. And so he got, you know, the wonderful 250 bucks and he said, I just wanna get the word out that this is a crime and dammit, I'm gonna prosecute it.  Now what you're getting now is you have a lot of state statutes out there that are basically doing the theft of service statutes on this and it's the cable aspect and that's the article here. There's a great article. If you wanna surf and find it, it's Benjamin Kerr's and that's the aspect I love. Wacking, joyriding and you know, if you just, if I stopped it right there, I'd probably get in a lot of trouble so that's why I put the rest of it up here. Do the search, the Google search, you'll find it. It talks a lot about the state statutes that are out there for theft of services and this is the interesting aspect and you gotta love talking to any prosecutor and I was a prosecuting hack too and when you said, who's the victim of this crime? Oh, I don't need a victim. You know, the state's the victim and so therefore I can prosecute. You know, I don't need a victim on this and the Electronic Communication Privacy Act says that uncontrolled radio signals are not a trespass and is not a violation of ECPA if I'm just getting uncontrolled radio signals. You have not violated the Electronic Communication Privacy Act. Okay, great, but yet if I hop on my neighbor's Wi-Fi which is uncontrolled radio signal, I'm being prosecuted for stealing the Wi-Fi aspect of life.  They're gonna be going, oh, Jesus, this guy's going to jail forever for use whacking and joyriding with somebody. It's that George Michael's thing and so you're gonna have to have him coming up and go this. Now, you know, the aspect, one of the things is when I talk about that trespass to chattel thing, here's the fun aspect because here's where your expertise comes in. It's intermeddling with someone's property and that's the aspect they're looking here. When I hop on someone's Wi-Fi, am I diminishing that use? Now, granted again, if House A has the Wi-Fi unrestricted and House B is right here and House A does all his child porn surfing from eight to nine, which has huge files and House B does his at the same time too and he's diminishing his bandwidth, well then you could see that that could be an argument for that. But that's kind of the things that they're looking at and they're still saying that any little bit, diminishing it is sufficient and so it's an interesting aspect in terms of looking at good old Wi-Fi. David off versus David off. I like this one from a hacker's perspective. In this one, I can't remember if this guy was a doctor or not, but you always love it when you have these facts because the plaintiff in this case is suing the defendants and the defendants are the ones committing these acts. The defendants were, when you go this way, it goes great. The defendants were first, an ex-wife, she's always a good one, and then her aunt and her uncle on this. From their home in Florida, entered his website and changed his information and of course he said this, people are looking at this, I've been defamed, I'm losing business and so he sues them in New York because that's where he's at. Now the big question here is can I sue someone in Florida for hacking my website and changing the information? And they're in Florida and I'm in New York so can I sue them in New York? So this is kind of important. I'm gonna go through a couple of these to get to the fun one. We learn in law school and by the way, you need to know this if you get a lawyer. When we go into work in the morning as lawyers we're tired because our day starts usually around eight o'clock and really anally retentive people who like to bill a lot of hours, that's how we make our money will be in there at 7.30 and this is after they've read a couple of statutes, polished their shoes to a high shine, polished their teeth to a high shine and they'll be in the office working away billing you because they're working on your case and every six minutes they work, they get to bill. Well one of the neat ways we're taught in law school to get around this when the partners are walking around is as you've got CNN up on there and you're actually checking out like who won the sports last night and as you see the partner walking by you sit there and pick up the phone and go yeah I'm working on an international shoe because that's the jurisdiction case that gets jurisdiction in there and any partner who hears that says okay the dude's working.  It's on a lot more friendly terms now that we don't have a football coach that can do shit but we still hate people from Ohio on that, we're working on that too. So we need minimum contacts. Now what do you think? These people from Florida hack this guy's website change the information is that sufficient minimum contact to get them up to New York to be sued? What's the key fact that I've left out? Where's the web server? Asshole? It was in Florida. What are you doing being a New York using a web server in Florida? And that's what the court said. Now the neat thing about, well I need to call it, yeah I can read between the lines maybe that's what they did say. Now when you read this thing as a lawyer and again we get paid to kind of you know it's kind of like being John we all want to be Grisham we always want to write that novel that churns and changes.  He's gonna have to travel and be well the ex-wife and the aunt and uncle and be probably you know face a civil suit up there. Well then the court says no. Uh-uh sorry the fact that they did this on there if we had to sit there and say when you hack this website where the information is read that means you'd be liable and all 50 jurisdictions in the United States to be sued somewhere and that's not enough. So we're not gonna do it where the information was read. So the moral destroyer for you guys are if you're hacking something from somebody and they're out of state somewhere make sure you're hacking interest state. So you don't have any problems being sued someplace else. Now with that said and I haven't mentioned it here there was a child porn case where the guy was downloading child porn and he was getting it from his ISP and the servers were all in the same state and he made the argument I didn't do anything interest or interstate I was interstate this is a federal statute that requires interest or interstate you can't prosecute me under this and the judges got the technical experts to say we cannot say that this was solely routed internally through your state and they got the experts to testify routing takes the least path to its route so we can't say plus even interest state computers are connected interstate and they still upheld the prosecution so it's an interesting aspect when you're looking at that and that's just how things go. Prosecutions of the rest of the diamonds this was not as an exciting year as last year when Shadow Crew got busted. I mean DOJ was really proud of our secret service and DOJ was really proud of that there was a lot of press out on it I picked a couple things that kind of had some personal interest Kenneth Quack a buddy of mine is actually the IT guy for the Department of Education and so that's why I picked this one and this guy basically put a key log on his boss's computer so he could read his emails and everything and the motive behind this for doing this was personal entertainment you know five months in prisoners five months home confinement three years that supervised release that's that probation stuff and a fine of $40,000 it's kind of like that was great entertainment on that one. Scott Levine the reason I've got Scott Levine in here is he was the controlling owner of Sniper Mail anybody familiar with this? The reason I like this one is because he's still more than one billion records containing personal information so I call him my Dr. Eva I can't do it well but anytime you can throw one billion out there and quote you know Austin Powers and it's a great thing this dude got 96 months for Sniper Mail it was out of Arkansas and I didn't know the prosecutors who were working on this it was a long case they finally pled it out again sophisticated decryption software to obtain the passwords authorizing or exceeding his authorization Yu Li a Chinese national this guy is not Ferris Bueller he's at the University of Utah he hacked the computers to change his grade and got busted he got his professor's username and emails and it's just kind of like alright that was thrilling so on that one the botmaster dude this one good old Jensen James got 57 months he got three years supervised release $15,000 went to China Lake it's a naval facility out there in California I just like that because I used to have to do work at China Lake China Lake blows shit up I mean so he's hacking their computers it could be kind of interesting with what they're doing out there the reason I like this one is because you know it was the big bot aspect of life and this guy had a $460,000 and his BMW I like that because you know it's like it says up there I do a BOT lose a BMW he got apparently $107,000 by downloading adware to more than 400,000 infected computers that was pretty good on that and good old Enrique Perez here he was basically selling spyware for people to use and of course he was using it too riding on the heels of that and so he basically was out of San Diego a thousand folks on that one I'm not sure that this guy's been sentenced yet he's pled guilty and they're waiting and sentencing on this one I believe so those are my arrests and prosecutions I asked some folks at DOJ any obscure cases that I might be missing they're getting in under the wire because we all sit there and we all have the same list servers giving us information and I actually asked Paul Ohm who was at DOJ and he's now a professor at the University of Colorado Boulder Law School anything I might have missed and the first thing he said was well you're gonna talk about the NSA case aren't you? And I said no obscure cases that I may have missed and he said no and my DOJ guy said some aspects of employers using the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act the presentation before this was looking at the different changing roles of DEF CON how it's actually become more networking and aspects of that and so I thought I'd talk about this when giving the aspects of being in computer security and the things that you do and the number of different organizations that are out there and how quickly you guys can move from one consulting firm to another really fast and these cases that are up there are specifically talking about that aspect when you're in negotiations with possibly someone else that's gonna hire you and you're talking about that aspect of having the non-disclosure agreements the use policies the no competition clauses that are going on and again that my ninth circuit guys on California again, big computing aspect area they hate anything that limits competition in this they really don't honor these things a lot and what's happening is they say at that point when you say I'm leaving security firm A and I'm gonna go work for security firm B your authority to access those computers has ceased it's stopped so anytime you log in there you have now had an unauthorized access in elevation of your privileges which is civilly liable under the computer fraud and abuse act so your employer can now sue you when you go over there so it's kind of an interesting aspect that you might wanna be aware of if you're starting to do that the aspect of this is it's based on that fiduciary duty of agency that we say again, if you ever had a cocktail party and you wanna impress some folks say well I had a fiduciary duty to do with my employer wanted me to do but they were gonna offer me a lot more money and so I just went and wiped the logs that aspect what they're saying is once you make that determination to switch employers it's not even going and putting in the two weeks notice you stop that agency relationship has been breached you're no longer working for that employer so any access you've got there is gonna be a little illegal the V chip case I mean this guy was involved with patents he went in there and you know download you know this is the classic aspect downloaded all the stuff he was working on deleted all the files and took it with him so it was a pretty easy case to rule on with that the other case the PC Yonkers is actually they're like party stores they're like these party cities and basically all they were stealing was the information of the different customers that they had on that one but again because they accessed the computers they were going to rule on the computer fraud abuse aspect of it I think in this particular case it went against them because they could not specifically identify at what point in time they accessed the computers and if they did get any really beneficial information on that so that was the one case that kind of cut the other way on it for that using pen registers trapped trace devices on your email accounts I did not get a 10 minute warning I did I didn't see it I was laughing damn attorneys we are at the end couple cases there's a inray for Gianno the daughter hacks ex-boyfriend and they go to the parents house and sees all the computers no criminal charges filed and they kept all the computers so be careful your system that you're setting up there and the last thing I had which I knew is going to make sure I'd go over in time is the case on the United States versus Garcia it deals with web bugs and web beacons and it deals with the government's use to put those to get to your machines for attribution is that a search is that a seizure there's a great case out there uh... that basically says there is no expectation of privacy and contraband and so if you steal something and it's yesterday's versus more you have no expectation of these stolen goods so I can put whatever I want on it and you can go right to your computer just got to talk that away if you have any questions about that come up and talk to me if you enjoyed this presentation please make that known to def con now the only thing standing away from positive evaluations is for you guys get into the beer so thank you very much go get a beer