A ninth round AFL draft selection, Kenny Houston went on to become a 12-time pro bowler and returned nine interceptions for touchdowns. In 1971, Houston set an NFL record with five touchdown returns. This original ballhawk went on to join the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the NFL's 100th anniversary all-time team.


Yo, the premise of the video is very simple people. I have a 99 overall. Shout out to random wizard. I'ma leave his link in the description.  And it's gonna be everybody's fault, but mine. This is just normal Davis video, huh? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.  I only have an hour before I gotta hop off, bro. Trying to get some games in? Wait.  Yeah, yeah, I'm a 99. Oh, you cheese. Yo, so, Inferno. I like your name. Thanks. I just thought of it. Hey, that's money though. Hey, pick up Inferno. Pick up Inferno. Maybe. He's not my brother anymore. Yo, board up Inferno.  I need you there for the rebounds, man. Hey, that's mine. Board up. Good stuff. Why he shouldn't get rebounded? Right here. Cash. Oh, he shoot over those. Yo, what the? Bro, I'm lagging. I'm big, bro. Yeah, set some screens. Oh, that's a break. Wow. Yeah, you gotta be confident with the basketball. Yeah, man, you want cold, cold. I'm cold. I'm cold. I'm cold. I can't shoot right now. Greenbee.  Hey, bro, you can't miss when I got my takeover, bro. Yo, yo, yo, come on. At least I'm lagging. What's your excuse? Why would you take that? Imagine not caring about your team and taking shots like that. At least they not breaks, don't bro. Hey, listen, man, sometimes you hit, sometimes you miss. That time? That's a 99 stretch. Yo, what does that mean, bro? I will drop buckets in your eye. My finger was slipping and I was lagging. That's all. Yeah, sure. I'm certain. Look at this. Look at this. Look at that defense. Look at that defense. How would you leave it on? Nah, he's because he can't. Oh, my God. The ugly look. Hey, hey, pick it up.  I'm not even shooting that bat. And this is my first of the day. What are you talking about?  Imagine not caring about your team. Hey, that's it. That's a good take right there. Look, you're not even kicking it to your open stretch big. Is that because he misses wide open?  Listen, board off. Come on, board. Look at him spam. Look at him spam. Look at this, bro. Yo, go corner. There we go. Kobe. That's cash. What? Yo, what are you talking about? But they don't see the screens and the things I'm doing on the side. Inferno. Yo, Inferno, man. I know I didn't really shoot that hop, but you got to step your game up on defense. You know what I mean? I'm sorry, I'm not used to a pure shot. Hey, what up, Jazz's other team? So I start my day every time I talk to my mom. Just walk home. What up, Jazz's mom? Where's the pancakes?  Bleed, why would you do that? What's your ping at? What the... Yo, it says 753.  God. Did you ever hear of a give and go? Look at that! What the... Yo! Yo, Inferno Vortex, y'all can't bring your man to me. Leave me open. I'm a 99. That's what I do.  I just don't have space to operate. That's me. Yeah, here we go. You got it. Oh, good pass. Get the shot. Clear it. Clear it. Clear it. And run! Vortex, clear it! Yo, stop up. Yo, you guys have to box them out. Come on, man. That's your guy, Inferno? Whose man is that? Oh, that was my guy, but it's because I was rotating most likely. I understand completely. Hey, Inferno, you see how your guy's on me right now? You see my Gemma? Yeah, I can't move him away. We need that shot. We need that shot. I'm very... Mom! Your mom is watching Netflix. Burn down the quality! I'm going to change my Gemshot after this game. I think it's just bugged out. You know that glitch, especially in the beginning? You remember that glitch, Vortex?  Because it's not switching it. Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yo, help me out. Inferno, Inferno! What's wrong with y'all, man? Help me out! Bro, am I playing with bombs? Hey, pass it. What are you doing? You're not the star, my guy! How do you... I'm here! Cash. Good shot.  No. I'm not. Why are you messing with my record? Why are you messing with my record for? I'm being serious. Stop playing with me, man. This is important to me. You know how long I spent grinding these games? You know how much money I spent boosting my wins? Wait, what? Can you say that again? Wait, what? Ladies and gentlemen... We caught him! I'm f***ing out of 99, bro. Don't turn on your mic talking to me like that, alright? Y'all ass, bro. Bro, do not talk to me like that. I will literally beat it out of you. My guy, Inferno is wide open. That's Cash. Inferno. What the f***? You gotta be a YouTuber, bro.  I'm playing, bro. Yeah, don't say that to my teammates, because I swear these guys are dropping you off, my guy. So, if they're trash, what's you? Iso, Iso, Iso. Wait, I'm not in flashbacks. He's like you're slick, huh? That's Cash.   Just punch her. I can't do that. She's gonna kick me out of the house. I'm gonna get a job.  Iso, I'm back. I'm back. Sorry, I was just my dad this time. What's a dad? You wouldn't know what that's like. I'm lagging. I'm lagging. Why am I lagging? Yo, Pokey, are you delaying me right now? That's me. Let's go, baby. Good deal, good deal. Bored up. Bored up.  Why are you by yourself doing nothing? Step your game up. Yo, help me out. You blocked. What are you guys doing? Why are you guys spacing the- I'm open. I'm open. That is the best job move you have, Inferno.   I have to turn off the PS4. I'm gonna turn it off. I'll be back in a second. Okay, okay, okay. I know a person that works for child services. No, it's not funny. It's not funny.  Come on, talk about it. I don't want to. You know you want to talk about it. It's not funny. Talk about it. You can trust us. We're nice people. No, you could be evil. You don't even know how to dribble. Look at you. You did one snatch rack.  All right. Just move and see if he follows you. He's looking at his phone. He's waiting for his camera. He's like, no. No. This is my actually first time playing in O, bro. And I feel excited. All right, man. We trust you, bro. Just do your thing, man. Thank you, bro. At this moment, he knew. You got that woods. Get shot. Hey, I got some amateurs. Oh, no. I can't even really dribble, man. Look at you. I don't know. You really got it like that, man. That's easy. That's easy. Oh, okay. No, I messed up. That's my fault. Yeah, that is your fault. What's up the game? Hey, what's open? What's open? It's easy. What are you? What are you? Oh, yeah, that's cash. Scream. Yo, that's easy. I see you, man. Never doubted you for a second, man. Random. Random. Random. I'm lagging, dawgs. Me too, actually. Oh, yeah. That's easy cash money. What? You're lagging. There you go. Oh, good to take this. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh, man. You did the most ACC leads I've played. Hey, y'all. Good D. Yo, Rev, you are horrible. Yo, Rev. Yo, Rev, come on, my guy. Yo, Rev. You shot that. Oh, he's nervous. That's a brick. That's garbage. Bored off. They're in party chat trying so hard enough. What's next? There's nothing left. No. Someone could hold. Oh, 10. Not 10. Let's see which one is trolling, bro. Who is it? Yo, you see my rebound count, though? Oh, these are defenders.  No one stalked them and guard me. Shit. Right on cue, baby. Yo, you actually hit the shot, please. Please, Dean. Wow. I actually hit it. Don't pull around. I try to beat these guys. Oh, press hundred and ninety-nine and one is down. I have to take a picture of this, bro. I never pulled 99. Wow. Bro, how do we win those, man? Bro. Hey, if y'all win a part two, 20,000 likes, those are the rules. If you enjoyed, drop a like, subscribe to the channel. There's four videos on the screen. Click on one of them. And I'm out. Peace.


Ahoy ahoy and welcome to the video. Today we are going to do another reading but I'm talking to you first because it is set in a particular canon, and I don't want you to be super confused when we get to it, from the Nightfall canon. It is a, we'll say, blood-borne and fallen London-inspired setting, and I have created a story which I enjoyed called He Walked a Crooked Mile about Dr. Sumerian in this setting, just a completely different version of Dr. Sumerian. So I'll just give the standard Creative Commons license thing, even though it's my story and I do whatever I want with it, but he walked a crooked mile. It was written by me, Dr. Sumerian, and you can find it on the SCP Wiki, and I'll link in the description below. It is under Creative Commons Attribution Share Like 3.0 license. A long drop and a short rope was all that separated me from Oblivion, and there was a sort of peaceful calm to the moment as the crimson sack went over my head. The crowd screamed its accusations, mostly true, but they seemed quiet and now. Body snatcher, crypt thief, grave robber. It didn't matter that it was in the pursuit of science, that an entry at the University of Yarsborough said Mr. Sumerian, 65. No one cared that those 65 corpses had done more to further the cause of science than any amount of work I could have ever accomplished in my life else-wise. One day, soon, those screaming people would be saved by the knowledge I had helped provide, and I stood there in the ruby moonlight, secure in that solace, and then the bottom fell out beneath me. The rope around my neck went tight. There was a crack, a flash of pain, and then there was nothing at all. This place had claimed another victim. The city of Desmond, though, rarely lets go of anything of value. There were flashes of consciousness, of pains, unimaginable, and then silence again. The dreamlike state into which I fell was one of terror and wonder. I had struggled to breathe for a few moments, and then I'd see vague shapes of faces looking down at me, then nothing again. Oblivion. Over and over. In the brief moments of cognizance, I imagined that this was punishment for my life of wickedness. Then one day, I awoke from oblivion for good. I was strapped to a table, raised high in the raining sky. I could feel the surge of electricity through my body. Lightning struck me a second time as I broke the bonds holding me down. I stank a burning flesh for maldehyde, and I anized air, but I was alive. I was powerful. Still, these weren't my hands. My glasses were gone, but my sight was clear, so these were not my eyes. Yet, I was sure that this was my mind. I leapt from the raised platform, came crashing down almost 80 feet below, but the cobblestones cracked instead of my bones. No one pursued me into the night, but I ran anyway. I found myself in an alley I didn't recognize. The rain slowly subsiding. There, on the ground, in a puddle of murky, blood-red water, I saw my reflection for the first time. A great scar, stopped at my scalp, continued through my nose and down my neck. The skin on the left side of my face was just a bit lighter than the rest of me, and a single red eye looked back. My other eye was hazel, just as unrecognizable, but at least not strange. I tore a loose tunic about my chest, and it came off in clumps. Soon I was able to see my skin. Everything was criss-crossed with stitching and scars. I sank against the nearby building and began to cry. There was no great punishment or reward on the other side, only oblivion. The pain I'd felt was wholly human. Men of science trying to piece me back together, and as I came to that realization, a man entered the alley with a grin. I must have seemed an easy mark for the cut purse. This one held the knife with some confidence, a practiced hand. I'd fought men like him in the trenches. But Sumerian had been too infirm to fight in the war. Ah, I saw it then. This wasn't entirely my mind after all. The cut purse began to approach me. I stood up and looked at him, and as he took my full measure I could see the pangs of fear in his eyes. Before he could contemplate his mistake, I moved like lightning. His head smashed into the brick wall with a wet splash. I looked down to find he'd stabbed me, just under someone else's ribcage and someone else's heart.  I pulled the knife out. I hoped to see myself bleed to death there on the cobblestones, but the only blood came gushing from the dead man in front of me as he slowly slid down the wall and slumped over. The wound closed immediately. The scars remained, but the hole over my heart was sealed. I considered this for a moment. Then I threw the man over my shoulder and made my way across the rooftops to Yarsborough. The university paid well for the cut purse's body. A new entry was made for me. The constructed man, the doctor called me. I believe it was meant as a joke, but I allowed it to pass without comment. I even persuaded the doctor to lend me a bed for the night and some clothing. When the whistles blew the next morning, I went back into the world. My wages paid for a meal. The good doctor from Yarsborough even rented me the room in secret in the Yarsborough clock tower. It wasn't hers to rent, but no one else was using it. I know I come and go in secret. I had curiosity to be sated. I returned to where I was made, but I found the building burned to cinders. The owner's names were in no public records. Perhaps this is my penance for some imagined slight. Perhaps a friend did this to save me from death. Perhaps I will never know who did this or why. But for now, I rest atop the Yarsborough clock tower.  Spider cracked. Someone pieced it back together, but it will never ring again. And that suits me just fine. The good doctor has told me of a series of murders at the university. Some creature of the night or other has begun ripping people apart in the small hours. Cut purses pay the bills. The occasional tomb robbing buys my food, but how much could I get for the body of a true vampire? Or maybe a werewolf? Yes, I think I will hunt monsters tonight. Thank you very much for watching. If you enjoyed the video hit the subscribe button and then hit the notification bell next to that so you're notified when I upload new videos. And then head on over to patreon.com forward slash D. Cimmerian and pledge at any level like everybody here on the screen already has, including Sinjeriki, who has pledged it $100. It is nice to know that I'm not alone out here, and I will see you all again on Thursday.


Can anyone hear me? This is our first pilot for education day for our London branch, and I could not resist to talk to the Communies, and the very first topic emerged out of a number of topics and I think oppressive governance all around the world was something that we've got to We've got to really looking out for and we've got to recognise it. So if I may, in the next half an hour I'd like to share my beliefs, opinions and just a actual reality what we were going through as family and friends and obviously the people of Eastern Europe. I've written some notes. I've written kind of a timeline of the communes and how we all started. We need to understand how the communes had started, where they came from, then what it evolved into and then how it ended. Ac mae'r tîm yn ddybyn – ble mae gynifer gan hyn arrhyw gweld am yr hyn, oherwydd mae'r llaw o'u bod yn ddod i dwydoedd yn ddelban. Mae'n ddaredd yn ddod i ddechrau – ddod i ddod i ddod i ddod i ddelban.  Rhaid i'n gweithio. Mae'r cyfrwyng iawn o 16,000 gymnoedd yn ymwneud i'r stadion ystradd ym Mhraith, yn ymwneud i'r cyfrwyng iawn o'r ffordd yma yn y Maes Game Cold Spataquiada. Y rhaid yma yw'r cyfrwyng iawn, yn ymwneud i'r ffaith yw'r cyfrwyng iawn, yn ymddangos, yn ymdegwyd, yn ymdegwyd ac yn ymdegwyd. Here, in the heart of Europe, Czechoslovaks are part of an experiment to change the world. The states saw a new kind of society, a new type of human being. They saw to erase the past and reprogram the nation memory. The vice-bread demands to reform society however brutally crushed by Warsaw Pact allies. Czechoslovakia became a kingdom of forgetting. Yet, there is a persistent rebellion amongst artists, intellectuals who do not submit to this type of society. Thanks to a footage locked away in the National Archives and from revisiting my childhood memories, I shall take you on a quick journey of the people's life during these extraordinary times. 8th of May 1945, unconditional surrender of Axis power. The allies accept to Germany's surrender. About a week later, Adolf Hitler had committed suicide. Three E Day, victory in Europe celebrates the end of the Second World War. Central and Western Europe are ravaged by a ruinous war beyond recognition. The nation states are declared beyond repair and a self-determination of any kind of future society. What is yet to be cast upon Central and Eastern Europe is even more evil, even more ruinous than fascism. It is a Stalinism communist regime. Dressed up, the communism of a human face, in simple terms, this is their lost world for the next 40 years to follow. My two late grandads fought in the war. Both came back home, one without his leg, the other one mentally scarred by the horrors of the war. But they both did come back alive. By May 1948, the Iron Curtains falls onto the Czechoslovakian state in the heart of ancient Europe continent for the next 41 years. Czechoslovakian Communist Party gatherings in Pragym Bratislava rally the masses, reaching a staggering 2.5 million party members in the streets. This is the most significant party majority outside the Soviet Union. However, the Communists do not command a majority in a parliament. The Communist Party, however, gains the power and a spectacular political coup beat no more an illusion. Democracy is submerged and the Communists emerged. Overnight, the nation wakes up in the horror of what is being done to them. A rich hand begins between the state and the citizen. The fair's entree on a Communist menu is to nationalise all the private sector property. A good Communist is also an excellent socialist and ensures and cares for all a class struggle before the state begins. By the year 1950, on your five years since the ruin of the Second World War, a young state of Czechoslovakia is in the grip of Stalinism terror. So-called sham-shell trials take place. Any kind of political opposition or dissent to regime are punished by the most brutal public displays of them all. Sham-shell trials with a death penalty stage in the end. Political prisoners are plenty. Sadly, the country of ancestors becomes an epicenter for these atrocities. Ladies and gentlemen, this is not a project fear of leaving the EU with no deal. This is a different type of project fear. Your shot or hanged death, if you show to be complicit, a quarter of a million people are convicted and hundreds executed for their political crimes. The evidence is fabricated, the government supplies the witnesses and it is made absolutely sure that this appalling stage show trials are your TV program or radio debate during the day for those of you lucky ones that own a TV set. Very dark times set in. Innocent people are executed for freedom, conspiracy theories with the West and espionage with the US. Everybody becomes a target. Society becomes very afraid. The politics of fear are installed. The bold shield, the east from the west, is almost complete. Yet, some brave souls who plead guilty of these and committed grotesque crimes still hold their head high in the eyes of regime to never, never surrender while awaiting the gunshot in the head. Hitler leaves Waffa Starlin with that trade night moustache now with a slightly kinky twist. New work concentration camps are built deep in Siberia. The prisons overfilled with anti-sublishment political prisoners. The truth and reality are entirely concealed. The state controls everything, the way people vote, bring up their children and most importantly what they're allowed to see. The year 1965, the glory of agricultural collectives. Socialism is being brutally and often literally enforced in a countryside. People have lost their incentives to work, land and cattle. Poverty, hunger, misery are all too familiar joys of post-war austerity times. The state sees its almost old land, property and strips the ordinary folk of everything she or he has. New agricultural collectives are the answer. They are supposed to bring social haven for the comrades working in pretending fraternity and collective team efforts but what does ordinary folk supposed to do when she or he doesn't obey with the orders of the state? They are quietly evaporated by it. South familiar? Maybe in George Orwell's. 1984, no, which have brought along with me. Please, I feel free to have a look. With the out with the authors vivid and untamed fantasy but do not be fooled, this is an actual reality. Socialism claims yet more lies. It is bringing even more misery onto the ordinary folk's life. Pretended abundance and record harvest and tractor's production are made before the big plans are even announced. The reality has no longer significance and it no longer matters that there had been dry some month on record with the crops taking the bloke. Subjectivity is the new norm. Law seems the subject of politics and one's membership to the Communist Party is a golden ticket. To the Communist paradise. Socialists are always the winners. My land grandmother, stripped of her, Joyce was enslaved entirely by the agricultural collectives. She had no idea that they were free time to be had. Her day started early at 6am and ended at 11pm out in the fields of agricultural collectives. But she was lucky. She left and enjoyed labor in the fields. The Communist attitudes replaced violent attitudes.  Therefore people lost the land for the land. The communism was, as it turned out, built on a lie. Hypocrisy has reached another level. When people said one thing at home and another in the public, my parents did find the cracks in the system to escape the trouble. Barack Spring, 1968. The Communist in desperate attempt to fill the cracks elected a new leader, Alexander Dukcek, who was supposed to bring a new form of communism.  The censorship was temporarily abolished. Few people could travel a beacon of light. Europe had a short-breath period of time to change, to be different. Czechoslovakia wants to go alone, to be independent from the USSR structures. It sounds like Brexit, doesn't it? New communism reforms were extremely popular. Nation has woken up to a full blossom in Barack Spring. Life couldn't be better. Freedom smelled like a cherry blossom. 9th of August, 1968. Defending Socialism against Upture performs. Heavy military machinery tanks woke people up. In the middle of the hot salmonite, frightened nations saw the horror. Allies of Warsaw's Communist Party invaded every single village, town, city in Czechoslovakia. The entire country was strangled in the hold of of Soviet Army Operation Danube had begun. Tanks, soldiers with Kalashnikovs, rifles were roaming the streets. My late grandmother grabbed her two daughters. One of them was my mother. And they all hid in underneath bunker they had in the house. The makeshift bunker was not used in the Second World War. My late granddad was brave enough to come out of the house without the man to see what was being done to them. All they could see were Soviet tanks, armed soldiers and martial order in the streets of quickly taking charge. But these troops were not Americans. The West was supposed to be an enemy, as good communists always told us. How very mistaken they were, in fact, Soviet military armed forces of Warsaw packed allies. The nation was at Disney's in a state of shock. There were, of course, multiple casualties. A peaceful invasion, it was not. The year 1967, normalisation. The communists had failed to reform the system spectacularly. The process to reverse reform and the reformers was called normalisation. The reinforcement of Iron Curtain had followed. The dimes of Social Depression had followed, as intended in the communist utopia. Hardline communists censored all footage, movie or any traces of unflattering rhetoric or negativity expressed towards the regime. Speaking out, got a heist form of punishment or exile for these kind of state political crimes. The era of forgetting was installed by the regime erasing any traces of negativity against the Soviet regime. State confirmatory replaced belief and reality. There was not reality anymore. My dad was a moderate communist. He was a member of the communist party. As a social worker within the education sector, he simply had to obey the state. He could not attend my little sister's church christening. No photos could be taken either. And this was a severe price for him to pay to his newly born, darling daughter. I could see his watery eyes filled with tears on that Sunday morning when we all went to church for the big moment. The communists were atheists and did not support or believe in religion. Not my father could have attended otherwise. First of May 1976, amid the communist regime, my dear mother gave her birth to a healthy baby boy. I was born. She did not make it into the hospital so I was born at home. It was a labour day, the celebration of communism by all workers and socialists who had to march in every single town and village for the day May parade. It was punishable not to. The baby bursts or urgent medical care seemed not to be the priorities. I guess I picked up the wrong day with the communists. My first breath in the new world was a proper communist one. However, as a child, I never liked marching miles for hours giving fake acknowledgements or approvals of gratitude to communist elite. This really felt like a double speed, a virtual reality, a science fiction movie in a slow motion. As a child, I could see people who were exposing the gaps between the socialists, the referees and the truth. Many joked about system with a pinch of salt as these precious moments were carefully captured by a film, photography and media. Black market, agriculture collectives and communist aparychics were the main themes to laugh about with the communist authorities. Something finally had to give in. 1st of January 1977, Childhood 77 is published. Art and music were the only space where people's feelings could sleep. Somehow, miraculously, magically, people understand the coded language of disapproval, rebellion and just the pure disagreement of the regime. I have experienced this incredible human intuition from one like-minded individual to the next without a word being spoken. I know how you feel. Bartalof Havel, famous Czech artist and intellectual, fell the same and there to act. He's organised the petition of signatures to fight for human rights, descending movement. Something incredible has just happened. Sadly, Bartalof, the brave soul of them all, paid an utter price. He was a son and non-stop 24-7 police events by the state and later thrown in the jail. The police were patrolling with their docks in every single move. Can you even imagine what life must be like? George always, Institute of Hate, would come here for us to truly understand the restriction of freedom and his free movement, yet the snowball gathered pace. 26 April 1986, number four nuclear reactor in a Chernobyl nuclear power plant near the city of Pripyat in the north of Ukraine a USSR exploded. They didn't tell us, the communists. Thirsty days fall over the silence. I remember, later my mother was telling me, do not pick any strawberries in the garden and you must wash your hands twice when you come from outside. But why do I have to do this, all these things, mother? Why? She was right. And we were indeed in the path of the radioactive ash cloud. I'm here today, though, in standing cancer-free so far. Thank you, God. Russia kept silent about this human error disaster on a global scale. Finally, month later, Yeovin tablets had arrived to protect our thyroid glands. As a child, I could see a misery, cynicism and decline for the pheasants. Yet the communists had dug gold and star, the highest communist civic award for lifetime work achievement and install to a citizen who had just been exposed to a potential radioactivity. Ladies and gentlemen, you need to understand that this is not a science fiction movie. This was indeed the communism. Utopia from beginning to an end and the end is near. November 17th to December 29th, 1989, the Velvet Revolution, the voice of forgotten people. I remember asking my dad, why are you not going to work today? And he said, son, we are going to be free. I need to head downtown for a few days. And yes, we were becoming free. The Velvet Revolution was a non-violent position of power in what was then Czechoslovakia by a peaceful demonstration in response to a collapse of the Berlin Wall. The popular demonstration against the one-party system and government of the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia, including students and older dissidents. The first was the end of 41 years of one party rule in Czechoslovakia and a subsequent dismantling of the command economy and conversion to a parliamentary democracy. At last, we were becoming to see the light in the end of the tunnel. November 17th, 1989, International Students Day, riot police suppressed a student demonstration in Prague. It was the 50th anniversary of a violent suppressed protest against the Nazi storming of Prague University in 1939, where 1,200 students were arrested and nine killed. The 1989 event even sparked a series of demonstrations from November 17th to late December, a turning into an anti-communist demonstration. On November 20th, the number of protests assembled in Prague grew from 200,000 to previous day took an estimated half of a million. The entire top leadership of the Communist Party including General Secretary resigned on November 24th. On November 27th, a two-hour general strike involving all citizens in Czechoslovakia was held, which was the start of many weeks of protests to follow. In response to the collapse of the other wars of power governments and the increasing street protests, the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia announced on November 28th that it would relinquish power and end the one-party state. Two days later, the Federal Parliament formally deleted the section of the Constitution given the Communist Party a monopoly of power. Barbed wire and other obstructions were removed from the border with the West Germany and Austria in early December. On December 28th, 1989, whilst the habe became the President of Czechoslovakia, the communism did really end. Ladies and gentlemen, these were extraordinary times that lived under Eastern Europe. On my recent visit to Slovakia, I have asked my parents and got parents what do they remember from the communist times. I could hear some kind of nostalgia, some kind of bitter memories. It will take a couple of generations to wash away the footprints of that evil regime entirely. The moral devastation of the socialist social class had been done.  I can hear and see the evil again. Not more, not ever again. The past is the history and the future is a mystery. The President is a gift, so make sure you make the most of it. Thank you very much for listening to me.


Okay, is that working? Great, okay, so yeah, my name is Camden, and I'm from UCI in Dr. Morozovi's lab, and today I wanna talk about my software, Somatic, which is used for making self-organizing maps, which is a way to let you visualize highly dimensional data sets that Encode uses. So, today I'm gonna talk about a little bit of background, like what is a self-organizing map, why would you use one? I'm gonna do an in-depth description of how you train a self-organizing map, so those that are bioinformaticians will know sort of what the algorithm does. I'll talk about how to use the software to build your own self-organizing map, and then I will do a tutorial on how to use the self-organizing map viewer, which lets you basically supply a website to anybody that wants to look at your data, and then they'll be able to explore your data set at their own leisure, so. So the basic part of the problem is that data sets that are above three dimensions cannot be visualized easily, and humans are pretty good at looking at graphs, or looking at visual representations of their data, and be able to make sense of it, but computers are not the greatest at it, so in order to analyze very highly dimensional data sets, there should be a way to visualize it so you can look at it yourself. So there's already a system for doing that called PCA, which attempts to reduce the dimensions of your data set. The problem with PCA is that it assumes a lot about your data set, that it's a linear set, a space, and also every time you drop a dimension from your data set, you lose a lot of spatial information, so we'd like to be able to do that without losing any spatial information. So that is done through self-organizing maps, which is a non-linear PCA, and I'll talk about how to use them. So Psalms are sort of like a 3D stack of images. Each slice of this stack represents a different experiment or a different dimension of your data set, and each of these slices is divided into a bunch of hexagons, these units, and these represent a cluster of genomic segments, or genes, or go terms that have the same profile across all of the different experiments that you ran. For this particular psalm, we're running it on a toroid, so the top and the bottom are, so this whole thing is edgeless, so if you go off the bottom, you come up the top, and if you go off the left, you come off the right, so you don't have to worry about any weird edge cases or anything like that. These Psalms can be used to mine for interesting results, like in the human and mouse encode papers, we found some interesting results, and then Morzavi in a recent paper also found some interesting results related to using self-organizing maps. So, I'm gonna talk about how the algorithm works very briefly, so the first thing that you have to do is you have to build a training matrix for your data.  So, there's a bunch of different ways you can segment the genome, and I could talk about that later. So, the algorithm will initialize a toroid, which is how it's edgeless with your genome segments at random, and then for each time step, it'll take a vector from that training matrix, it'll find the unit in the map that it's closest to in terms of profile, and then we'll pull that unit and the unit's around it closer to that training vector. So, in the end, oh yeah, and then every single time step it'll also reduce the radius and the learning rate. So, over time, the map will train to become like a representation of your experiment space. So, in order to let people make their own self-organizing maps, I created a tool called Somatic. It's built to be very general. It'll work for any sort of coordinate system you put into it, so if you've got genes or microRNA or microarrays or whatever, you can put it into the segmentation column on the first column, and it will just work with it. Also, I built the tool to be sort of hackable in a way that all the output files are there, so if you would like to make a script to sort of throw your own overlays on top, or if you wanna make your own maps customly, that's all supported by the tool. Also, it'll automatically build a website, so that you can view your maps in a visual way instead of combing through reams of data like you would with any other Somtool out there. So, there's some requirements for using Somatic. I wrote Somatic in C++ to try and make it as fast as possible. Obviously, over time, I'm gonna make it more efficient, but as it is, it's much faster than any tool that's out there right now, but you need to have G++ version 2.8.2, you can check that by running that command on your terminal. Somatic has also been built and tested in a Linux environment, but I've heard that some people have been running it on their Macs and it works okay, so that's great. And just know that I'm only testing it for use for a high performance cluster or whatever. Yeah, so the Som viewer itself needs to be placed on a web server. You can actually build your own web server locally on your own computer by downloading Apache and just running it on your local host, but the best way to use it is to put it on a web server for your lab or your own personal high performance cluster, and it'll allow you to share that with all of your colleagues, all of your lab mates that wanna explore your dataset. There's one other little thing that's required for this to work, is the Apache server has to have its directory listings turned on so that the program itself can look through all the maps that you've created and sort of create a website custom every time it's run. So you can download the latest version off of our server at crick.biota.uciddu. If you just go to the somatic part of that address, there will also be a very simple page that describes some previous additions that have been released. It's the feature set, what's coming soon, and that will constantly be updated, especially over the summer, as I improve it with more and more features. So you wanna make sure that your GCC version is higher and is loaded correctly by running the G++ version there, and then you can untar the somatic folder that you just downloaded, and you just go inside of the bin directory and hit make, and it should just build it all for your current system. So there's two files that are required for running this program. The first one is the training matrix that I discussed earlier. The first column, and this is a tab delimited file. The first column is all of the segments that you're trying to run it on. It doesn't have to be genome coordinates, like it is in this example. It could just be gene names, like if you're running from an RNA-seq dataset or whatever. And then all the RPKMs, which is the data you're running it on, are in a tab delimited format after it. And you can have as many columns in that as you'd like, as many experiments as you'd like. Right, so there's an example training matrix inside of the examples folder in somatic if you're not sure about what the style is supposed to be. There's another file that you need, which is your sample list, which is basically the experiments that you ran, which correspond to the columns of the training matrix. And there's an example sample list at the example folder. Oh, be careful when you're naming your samples, because this is the naming convention that the website uses for people to look at. So you wanna make sure it's in a human-readable format. So you just run this script that I've created called build site. It's inside of the scripts folder. It takes a bunch of different options. You have to give your Sama name. You have to tell it where the training matrix is. You have to tell how many rows and columns you want for your neural network. And those numbers depend upon how complex your particular experiment is. Like a very simple, like only a couple of dimensions, you might want a smaller map, but if it's like a super complicated, like 96 dimensional single cell RNA data set or something you might want larger, like maybe 30 by 50 or something like that. There's a bunch of suggestions for how big your thing should be, but because it's a neural network, it depends exactly on your data set, which ones you wanna use.  And then you want to put them the sample list file, the location for that. You wanna put how long you'd like to run your Sama. We typically run it for about four million time steps, but that could depend upon how many segments you're using. You wanna use more time steps for having more segments in your genome. And then because it has a random initialization, sometimes the Sama can get stuck in a local minima. So you wanna run the Sama like three or four times and it will take the one with the best score at the end. So that'd be the number of trials. So this program will run like five or six different scripts that train the Sama, score it, generate your maps, generates a summary, which is a sum of all your maps. And then it creates this website out of a TGZ that's actually in that folder also. So there's a couple of overlays that you can optionally add on top of this. We require some additional files. The first one you can do is you can add a gene overlay if you're using genomic coordinates. So for each unit you'll be able to see what genes are inside of the unit instead of just the genome coordinates. And you can run this script called get genes. It should be get genes.sh, but I must have messed it up on the slide. It's also inside of the scripts folder. And it takes a couple of options, one of which is a gene annotations file. You also need to tell what method of which great algorithm, because it uses great to calculate the genes that are inside of each genome coordinate. And then if you've got like a GTF file which has a very strange like chromosome, like I know like for the mouse GTF file, it doesn't actually have CHR before the chromosome just as the chromosome number. So you can actually like put an option in there to add chromosome to that when you're doing all the comparisons. Otherwise it won't be able to recognize because two is not the same as chromosome two. So here's some directions on how to basically run this program. You can get this particular GTF file from Ensembl and open it up, and then you just run the get genes script on that GTF file using the example that we have. Again, this is a mouse example. So the next thing you can add is a go term overlay. The go term overlay is a little bit in beta right now, but it works okay. So go ahead and give it a shot. You can see the go enrichments that are in each unit instead of just seeing the genes. So you could see, you know, oh, this area is rich in like regulation of heart contractions or something, right?  You need to get a couple of files for this script also. One is the gene to go file, which you get from NCBI. And the other one is a gene info file, which you can also get from NCBI for your particular organism. I've also included in the read me file if you don't. So question. So what exactly is the output of your program? Is it a text file? It's a website. It's a website. Yes. All right, cool. I'll go over what the output looks like at the end. Cool, thanks. But the website itself has a bunch of output files inside of it. So if you go inside like the data folder in the website, you can actually look and see what all the maps are, all the genes, all of the go terms and do your own scripts on those. So I built it to be very hackable and open for people to use. Right, where was I? Yeah, so this is for the go term enrichment. And in the read me file for this program, I've included if you wanna make your own gene info file, like if your organism is not supported by NCBI, you can make your own gene info file pretty easily. It tells you which columns my program uses and so you can build your own file. Okay. So I have an example website up at the Sematic website for you guys to look at. It's at example website. There's also a link to it from the Sematic HTML page if you guys wanna follow along. So let me go to my webpage here. All right, so this doesn't look fantastic because the resolution on these projectors are terrible, but when you start up the website, it'll show you the summary map, which is basically the addition of all of the units from all of your different experiments. So you can see which areas are highly enriched across all of your experiments and which areas are lowly enriched. And because it's a toroid, you can use these arrow on the side of the map to scroll it around. And it will keep that the same across all of the maps you look at. So whenever you're looking at map side by side, you know for a fact that the hexagons line up with each other. So like say for example, we wanted to look at like H3K04ME1 inside of whole brain.  So on the right here, we can see all of the areas on the song that are enriched in the whole brain at this particular histone mark. So that's kind of neat. You can also compare that with another whole brain, like maybe H3K27. So you can look at these two side by side and you can see that there's areas that are high in one data set and low in the other one. So like say for example, we're interested in what's happening like here, right? We can click on that unit and we can see exactly what the enrichment level is for that unit. We can see all of the segments, the genome segments that have landed inside of that unit and this file, which is up in the URL is just sitting on your web server. So if you're interested in like doing some more statistical analysis on that, that's totally up to you. You can also view all of the genes that are in that segment and these genes are all genes that have the same profile across all of your different experiments. Which is pretty cool. And then you can also view all of the go terms that have been enriched in this unit that have a higher percentage of happening than the average. So you can see the first term is the p-value, which is corrected with Bonferroni and then you've got all the different go terms that are in that unit. Another cool feature is you can go to the go terms tab which will download all of the particular maps for all the go terms in your system and you can look for a go term that you like. So like say for example, we're interested in neuronal, like regulation of neurotransmitter levels, right? So we can click on that one. We can go down to the map and here's all of the units in your map that have that go term. So you can like look at them. Again the resolution is sort of messing with my mouse clicking a little bit. And you can see that it's higher in H3K04ME1 in these areas and lower in H3K27 in these areas and that might mean something to you for your particular experiment, right? So there's one more cool feature which are these groups. So let me see if that works with the go term or not, I'm not sure. Anyway, so you can like put us name for your group and this will group up all of the Psalms you have currently loaded.  And I add these selected to the group. So now I can activate and deactivate that whole group of Psalms with just one click. I can set a minimum and max the scale bars that currently are set automatically based upon the enrichment in this particular data but if you want them all to be the same across all of them you can just set a minimum and maximum and then hit set. So let's like set a minimum of like point like 0025 and set a maximum of like 0.022 or something like that. And then you can hit set and then all of the maps will automatically in that group will take that those those scale bars. There's another cool feature where you can see the average of all of those maps that you selected by hitting the average button and it will show you the whole brain average which is all of the enrichments for those particular things that you have selected. So that's kind of cool. There's also a bunch of like figure making tools. So if you want to make a figure for a paper you can like select like the square and make a square and then you can like rotate it and it'll show up across all of the different ones that you've got active and then you can like click on the X and get rid of it and get rid of that to start clicking again. You can make different colors so like say you want a red triangle over these for your figure. So you can just do that and then like rotate it to whatever you want, right? So that is the tool. And then so that I can go to acknowledgments. So I want to thank my my labs especially Dr. Mordorzavi who really helped me with this project. I'd like to thank Ricardo Ramirez and Benny Zhang who did experiments for me to run this data on and then everybody in the lab. I'd also like to thank my Hudson Alpha lead in code production group. I'd like to thank the HPC at UCI and like thank you guys for listening. That's it. There was any questions? Yes. So many problems with the microphones today. So could we look at your toroidal heat maps again for a second please? Sure. So just in general terms like how many windows wide and how many windows high is each one of those? You mean the maps? Yeah. The maps are about half or depending on the resolution of your monitor, right? Like this resolution is very small but normally it fits like a third you can fit like three maps on one screen. No, no, what I'm asking is if you're scrolling over the surface of a toroid. Oh, yes. How do you know when you've explored all the space? So this is just like a rectangular representation of the toroid. So like if you take the top and the bottom and you just sort of wrap them around and you take the left or the right and wrap them around, you make the toroid, right? So this is the whole toroid it's on there. Right, but what I'm trying to ask is if there are no edges how do you know when you're done looking around? Well, this is the whole thing. So you're automatically done looking around it just lets you put the whole thing on it just lets you put the whole like so sometimes you'll have a map that's like half off the screen. So like, sorry my computer's a little slow right now. So like say you get a map that looks like this when you first start out, right? But you know that this here is actually here also so you can click around and put it all like on one area to look at, right? Okay, thanks. So I don't really understand your question. Is that the answer right? I'll catch you later. Okay. So can we do a subtraction between any two groups? That is an oncoming feature. Okay, and the second thing is that can we parallelize it at least if you can run the different trials simultaneously? That's a future feature for that. Yeah, multi-threading and stuff that's all coming down in the future. As it is the training is actually pretty quick. The thing that takes the longest is adding the go overlay but that should be multi-threaded also. So I should change that for that. And because in our place it's we cannot have directory listing enabled. Say that again? We cannot have directory listing enabled. So if you can, any walk around? I'm gonna try and figure out a way around that but sometimes web servers have problems with the programs running on them poking around and it's like security issues and stuff. So I have to look into that and see if that's possible. If that's a serious problem you can actually run it locally on your computer in your own Apache-like local host. All right, thanks. You mentioned the source of the genontology files? Yes. NCBI has nothing to do with that. And because it comes from a consortium that I and others founded about 18 years ago called the Genontology Consortium. You can go to genontology.org. I take your OBO files from that website. But the actual like the conversion between go terms and gene names. You get it from NCBI? Yeah, because they've got a bunch of different organisms already created for that purpose, right? Yeah, which the genontology consortium has created. Oh, okay. Sorry. Is there any other questions? Okay, if there's no more questions let's thank all the speakers in the session. Oh, oh, you mean how the hexagons are connected in the map? Yeah, so the hexagons that are near each other are closer together in the experiment space. So their profiles are more similar. That's just the standard, like it just uses the vectors from the training matrix and trains on them, right? So the training matrix themselves create the profiles. Okay, let's thank the speakers. Thank you.


Hello, hello Hello, go ahead and paste the agenda Can everyone open that? Yeah, I got it. Yeah We'll give everyone a couple more minutes to join. I know my last meeting was running over as well. So Hey me That's okay The next yeah Is everyone that's just joining able to see the agenda in the chat or should I I can't see the agenda One more minute and then we'll get started at five after go ahead and share my screen can everyone see my screen Yep. Yeah All right. Good morning Report Alex or have you already started it looks like it's recording perfect. It's recording. All right. So good morning This is Wednesday, November 13. This is the CNCF storage. So So on the agenda As Hopefully everyone knows by now. We had pretty sad news Brad Childs who was one of the Cotech leads of the CNCF storage SIG and one of the co-leads of the Kennedy storage SIG his Passed away. So if you would like to record a video memory for Brad that will be given to his family There is a link in the agenda that first item Is the sooner you can do that the better and I believe and so I can correct me if I'm wrong that they're planning on Playing like a montage of these on the stage as well at KubeCon so It'd be appreciated Yep, that's right You guys so yeah, we're looking forward to any videos that you can share so the sooner you can do that better. Thank you And in addition to that, I will also post this later in the agenda There is a Google Doc in the CNCF where you can also just add in some You know memories of Brad if you'd prefer not to do a video and write something else instead or do both So the first piece of business is the use case documents that we've been talking about for a while that Louisa's put together Can you guys see that Yeah, yes If you click on the instead of clicking on that click on the my branch there right above that use case that's yeah, that way you can actually view what it looks like and then Go down to use cases On the on the top. I don't I haven't changed this part yet. Oh, you haven't okay. Yeah, just the directory use cases so What I've done here is kind of taken your feedback from the previous meetings Had it in a way that it's simple to add simple to edit simple to track versions Simple to remove and simple to add new ones and keep it a Keep it concise for those who are new So what I tried to do is I created a small template that's right there and I created a sample use case Using the template so we can click on the template first and you can see how simple it is and I took the top part from Kubernetes Style of doing caps. So this is just an idea every again. This is a straw man. I'm not Saying this is the way it should be but it is just a start and If you guys feel this correct direction, we can continue going this direction and we can give it in another direction So I took the cap title Area like if you click on raw here then you can see that area looks it's just taken from from the caps in Kubernetes and It provides way to track it and know the state of the document and things like that and then the document is just regular markdown The document the way I have Structured is to make it simple for readers and then refer back to the storage landscape document in any any Words or values that we want them to to to learn about and and So it's just pretty much table-driven and then I can show you an example of what it looks like if we go back one So if you go back another because this is a template and Then go down and Yeah, you can go like that. It's fine.  So this is what it looks like Here's a very small example of how to do an object storage NAS gateway using Minayo This is a small example of how to deploy Minayo and have The storage back in for it in the use case is as it describes here I'm modeled for the requirement of accessing files over a shell file system and an object stored at the same time Okay, so for that use case you can go down and it says what the goals are For the small document, but you can if you go scroll down a little bit like you go so here you can see the Storage landscape summary It tells you that's recommended to use those it tells you if you use one of those This is what you should check for if you use a block store and make sure you have a file system on top And you also need a service to be able to to share that If you go down a little bit more in file systems It tells it says you look if you have a remote file systems It's actually really nice because the storage system already has a model for for clients to access and It has a model for you to go from node to node to connect and disconnect So so pretty much this is like You know and then again, I said look object stores and key values that there they just don't work in this use case So this is the straw man If you can notice also things like durability and file systems and other stores are all links They all refer to that section in the Landscape paper so as a user that I'm not very familiar with storage and I want to click on file systems I can click on that and it puts me right on that page on the storage landscape so I can read that more information about it And again, the goal is to make it concise I didn't want to go into too much detail and we can add more detail, but it is just a use case recommendation What do you guys think I think it's excellent? I Love having the tables to be able to concisely determine where it fits and where it doesn't I think that helps I Think that helps if we're able to like layer on as well be able to take these type of things Side-by-side that's been a big discussion on the TOC like We have so many projects. I don't think that's true storage, but you know, where do we see the landscape going and where do we have gaps where we To foster projects that fill the gaps And again, I tried to make sure I used the same words that's a landscape document So the last gate document is like store stacks section block store section I just referred to those so I kind of applied that document to this use case in other words so So I think this is this is This is really good. It's kind of really simple. I like the fact that ties into the landscape document What do you mean in the storage stacks section? So Things like centralized distributed charted. I think those were topologies right in the last case. Yeah, what do you mean by recommended? Yeah, it's I'm not I'm trying to not say that it's not recommended. I Guess that's the word This like is a binary thing. Maybe we cannot make it binary make it three meaning like it doesn't matter Um, right But right now it's binary, but it really doesn't matter. It's How the story stack does it because it's it's more of an a protocol front, but you're right I mean, maybe maybe instead of just recommend it and not recommend it. We could have three states Like it it and a like I'm not applicable something like that Yeah, yeah, all right Is that is that good like this? Yeah, yeah, no, I I really like that I kind of like the idea you're right of saying You know, you can use distributed or pipe coverage for example But the optimal is might be something right? Yes, exactly. Yeah All right, and to me Do we want to go? Do we want to provide An example in the use case So like Would it be worth saying for example, you know, you know if you want to start many or with a Storage class this is how you do it for example Yeah, I put it as a non goal that oh this doesn't show a step-by-step, but at the bottom of this page. There's a reference Okay, I saw I saw the reference to the to the Minio documentation, right? Yeah, and it pushes you and tells you exactly how to do it. So Yeah, right there or the references the bottom Yeah, I have a bit of a concern here, which is that This could be interpreted as and this could become a list of kind of product or project promotional pages You know we in this particular example, we kind of seem to start with the assumption that Minio is the solution and then essentially justify it and it Sort of doesn't feel to me That's the flavor that we you know understood the problem the requirements and then You know Spelled out a bunch of different ways to do it With pros and cons of each way Which would seem like the sort of balanced approach to Something like this or So the good question and I felt the same way as I was creating it So I I completely agree I feel and this is How I balanced it and I want to get your opinion because I can go either way One of the things I was thinking of is as a customer as a user I want to deploy I'm looking for you know exactly what I want to deploy. I want to deploy out this use case and and We could in at this is just a very simple web page here I knew the minios are used it as an example, but we could you could do the same thing with Seth or Rook And you could create other ones other pages just like it So so it doesn't in nowhere on this page For example, I put that this is the minio is the recommended model. I instead say Here's an example using minio and what it requires, right? And so I try to be clear about that and that gives the opportunity for others To add there to their own pages to github, which their recommendations So that that's how I balanced it What do you think yeah I don't I don't know that a catalog of of you know how to use is is necessarily as useful as the Thinking process by which you take a specified well specified use case and you then Analyze what the requirements are and different ways that you can do it Sure, but we the key thing is that the customers are looking for a specific thing, right? Before they could decide whether they were interested in running minios and as gateway They have a whole bunch of other homework to do to figure out whether that's in fact useful to them Okay, so let's step back a little bit and think This is just an example. I just I'm not need to push this one, but I'm trying to think the goal was to say I Want to deploy Kafka for example? Right now I'm going after a specific project Do we want I mean trying to go back to the root of this product this task, which is do we want to be like that? Do we want to say? You are deploying Kafka as a use case. Here's the recommended storage for that In other words, here's our recommended app And here's the storage for that and I chose the app to be mana minio Now do we not want to do that? Do we want to be really really generic? It's like if you deploy a Like a message bus app Do you want to use that's one? That's my concern So so so my two cents here. I mean many of us possibly a bit something because it kind of It sort of sits in the storage space as well as being a use case rights that can consume storage, but I Think what we will be really want to capture out of these use cases is Different applications that consume storage and Link that to what we have in the landscape looking to say this application These these type of topologies this type of storage is is optimal or recommended for them And we may want to I mean may want to sort of maybe augment it and have maybe a notes category or something in this in this example template, but That's we can talk about Because in the landscape, but can we have the attributes Like failover and scalability and performance and that kind of thing And make them consistency durability whatever So so maybe we can say, you know, we have a section with notes to cover some of those attributes to be added to this So so it would be a use case like Kafka perhaps or or a database or a message queue or you know, whatever that's they full Use cases that that is consuming storage And we say, okay We have to we have to you know, it is it isn't should be fire system should be local should be remote Should it be a distributed topology or centralized whatever and we and we list all of those things and then we also say for example Say for Kafka for the sake of the example, you know, we can say Kafka is Dependent on lots of sequential IO performance for example You know, and if we do another one for rapid mq we could say, you know, it's it's It's dependent on on lots of random IO and you need very strong consistency or whatever, you know, those those kind of things So that's we can we can the idea is specifically to allow users to better understand how to deploy their stateful applications Exactly, right. I mean, that's that's the model I'm going after and I know that We had It's a kind of a double-edged sword because we're talking about projects as applications that consume storage But they're also promoting promoting those projects. So we have to be careful Again, I this is a straw man, I want to really get your opinion on it. So I completely understand Quinton, what you mean and I'm trying to I don't know how to Satisfy the requirement of of helping customers and users at what the same time being ambiguous I Don't know. I'm thinking about it. So I'm not disagreeing with you is what I'm saying I think we touched on that a little bit last time like if we're so vague This has value, right? Like if we're just Just mentioned the general data structures and put it into a document. It doesn't really help people get started or understand Things there is an issue of these becoming stale like there there could be Something a different offering than many. Oh, I mean, I think we just We like all open source things we would open it up to different use cases that also address the same thing I mean, that's all we can do. That's the CNCF is, you know, landscapes meant to be rich and diverse and have over that And we can also reference each other in the documents when they when they have this thing use case different technologies we can put them all in the same group Or linked to each other so our users can see the other models with other projects So I agree that we want to make this as useful as possible And and you know having it very generic is it makes it difficult to be useful But at the same time I think I agree with Quinton we have to Be aware that, you know, the CNCF can be used as a platform for promotion and as soon as a product is mentioned anywhere It incentivizes anybody who is a competitor in that space I completely agree, yeah Okay, name, you know everyone is gonna want their product name there Right, but but just to clarify right we're not We're not Specifying different storage products here, and we're not saying if you want to run Kafka for the sake of the argument use this product what we're saying is These are the attributes you're looking for out of the storage system, and these are the things that's that's that she needs to That you need to consider for that use case right now The idea of doing anything get up was also a case of right if you can you can now look at Kafka and you can say it benefits from a local file system with strong performance or whatever And then that allows them to look at the storage landscape and make their own decisions as to what storage system They're gonna use or what cloud service or a project or whatever else they're gonna use But we're not we're not actually recommending a project per se we We're trying to We're trying to give people advice on what how to move their stateful applications or how to use stateful applications In these environments and I completely agree with a I agree with the intention of this and I understand that the intention is not to pitch a product it is to Explain a use case and then use a product as necessary as an example But I think even with that You're going to have folks who are gonna say hey, why is my competitors product named here? I want to update this example to include my product. That's not fair Let me in and so I want to make sure that we kind of have a plan in the story for if that happens How do you deal with that? I think there's two more two answers to that One is that it's on github so anybody can edit And we can go through the process they can create they can create their own also so we're not it's not like When when we go through the process of accepting a project into the CNCF we have to go through certain Things but creating a small page on github. That's very very easy and very low Very low ramp. The second one is that It could be that instead and here's another way of doing it instead of us creating this Pages and hosting it here, which could cost the issue is that we create the template and we let projects host them on their page on their web pages and they manage that we just kind of promote the the the template and let the projects then posted on their pages, right and They think of refer back to the landscape document just like this github documents doing Then that is not up to us. We don't we don't host anymore It's another way Yeah, I don't necessarily think hosting is is the problem in my opinion in my opinion the function of this group is to provide unbiased balanced and useful information to primarily to the user community as one of our functions to have other functions to and I think that Doing that focused on One yeah, maybe maybe I'm out of line here. I mean I'm prepared to It it just doesn't feel like we're fulfilling the need here The need is, you know, I want to build my own Object store on top of my file systems What what options do I have and and what are the pros and cons of the different options? But that to me is what we were trying to do And correct me if I'm wrong And then I can come to a page like this and says oh, okay. I've got you know at least these options and and most people use this option and But one of the problems is X and and if X is a problem for you you also have option Y and Z They have these other downsides So so this is you know narrows your choice from the whole world is my options to these are actually the Commonly used ones with a pros and cons I can I mean a much better position to make a choice and then maybe I can click on a link That gives me a recipe for doing this Yeah, I think that What I meant by another repo means like we don't Like we don't put it up here, but like we don't advertise it But I think you're here. So an idea with I think following what you said is that in when you write technical papers you on Towards the end you have to write like When you write patterns and things like that you have to write a section of what other things are out there that are similar We could require that when you create one of these You know, there's a section you must have a section button that describes like what other projects are similar to this one, right? So that way every page has is not towards one project, but it has links to others if they provide similar solutions Can I can just clarify what the sort of what you're considering or what the what the objection is? Primarily, right? Is it is it's the listing of the options, which is the problem or the listing of the use cases which is the concern? I think my concern is mostly around having any sort of product names Mentioned in anything that resembles a recommendation or by the CNCS and the reason for this is kind of the history that we had if you all recall the Fiasco with when we try to define what CNCS or cloud native storage meant Turned into a giant brawl. I remember it's different vendors. So I'm very sensitive anytime We have anything that looks like it would potentially cause conflict amongst vendors I just want to avoid avoid that or have a very conscious plan when that starts to happen Maybe a good way would be to put the use case instead of object store NAS gateway using men IO would be Object store gateways and then So it would explain use cases for why we would want to use an object store gateway the topology architecture advantages of that and then under references, yes, it would be up to the author to provide and Examples know we could put reference architectures or example references or Or do we just expect the user to go out and Google those? I thought about that. I think just Sorry, I just I thought about that Erin and the problem was was that in each Implementation of the gateway was different. For example, if I compare mean IO to and they get I view this as an application Consumed storage, right? If I mean IO to open sex with to rock They have different ways of requiring storage that and then they all have the same They all satisfy the requirement of accessing the file and an object. So If I would suggest is that I would write all three, right? Using men IO using rock and and using open sex with for example, because they have different requirements Does that make sense because it opens a swift you don't want I think I get where you're going in order for this to be useful You kind of have to be application specific but at the same time I do think that Products are responsible for providing their own documentation for how to deploy in Kubernetes etc etc and What we want to capture here is not necessarily. Hey, here is how you integrate with a specific product but holistically here is a Product category and here's generally architecturally how it works and then if you're interested about a specific product you go look at that products documentation. I may be okay with what Erin is suggesting with like a references link at the bottom Where you could have specific examples linked out maybe two specific product pages But even that seems a little a little it has a smell to it So can I can I can I just quickly ask a question here, right? Are we are we getting ourselves tied up in knots because the example? That we happen to choose first was happened to be storage related Would we feel this way if we were talking about I don't know how to deploy a SQL database, you know of your choice my SQL or Postgres or whatever on and what type of storage they would require Would that change the thinking at all because I kind of do feel that it's We There are lots of things that consume storage obviously And we went to great lengths to define all the different storage types and how they work and You know pros and cons and things like that but what we always said we were going to do as the next step was Define the use cases to kind of an examples of How those how real life Consumers of that storage Whether they're databases, whether it's a message queue whether it's a stateful application of whatever type is Consuming the storage now in this particular case We kind of chose an ambiguous example because many always obviously both a storage consumer and a storage provider So so I can I can understand the why here But if this was say, I don't know a database or an example of how to configure a message queue on On storage platform with that have the same concern. I Think you've hit the nail on the head Alex I think if we treated the use case here as building an object store On-premise it looks like is is kind of the assumption Then and and men I always was listed as one of the options that was available if you wanted to build an on-premise object store I think that would be totally fine and and the same goes for the database stuff I think I'm probably less adverse to to mentioning products than Saad is and and I understand sensitivities But I think to be useful. We have to be comfortable saying this is the most commonly Used, you know, I think we should be able to say my sequel is a commonly used relational database And so is Postgres and there are also these other ones that are less commonly used for example but I think There are a whole bunch of things that are common whether you are Deploying Postgres or my sequel or any other, you know of those style of databases Regarding what discs you store your data on how you set up your caching All of those kinds of things and I think they can be dealt with Generically and and I think we can say the pros of putting your, you know log file Your database logs on on ssd or the following and the cons of the following And this is the common way of doing it for performance and if your ability or cost is there more important This is the common way of doing it. I think I'd be totally fine I think the fact that Minio is in the title here is is actually the problem as opposed to focusing on the use case Which is building an object store on-premise Okay, so should we just remove the Minio from the title? Yeah, that's what I was saying. I think it should just be Okay, but here's my concern and again, I'm just being playing devil's advocate It's just that even the sequel model sequel is just a language. I mean we could talk about You know Yeah Yeah, it's just we have to be careful like we could use like Vitesse and now we'll have a very different storage model Than the my sequel and a single note We just have to what I'm trying to say is that sometimes we're gonna have to bite the bullet sometime and and choose All of these also all these databases are persistence so they're all storage products themselves even in our landscape so I I don't know if we're just worried about just Minio specifically or Because if we start going towards databases, that's still persistence and then we're gonna start picking even message cues of persistence It I was thinking actually of using at CD for example as an example as use case But what about console, you know what I mean, so it's like it at CD I think it's a project for CNCF. I think so anyway No, I We have to find a good balance like I mean We would obviously want to highlight the open source ones that are part of CNCF, right? I mean if they're there, we should be able to put them here as a viable option But it would be nice if if the use cases could be put in such a way like why do I need object storage? Why would I want to use a gateway like it explains? I would want to do that Which I think you you've done and then the more specific pieces we would just leave to these references We wouldn't put those specific changes is if I did this in Nuba or I did it in Minio What would the differences be that's up to the user to go experiment what works best for them, right? And so that so then we would leave products specific under references We would open that up. We would let anyone add their reference there You know, we need a disclaimer probably like we do not, you know endorse any of these products These are provided merely as examples And then we're just providing guidelines of different ways that you might use storage based on your workload. I don't know but We can't be So one model I'm thinking Sorry Did I interrupt? No, no, I'm done. Go ahead So the one model I was thinking we can follow is you start with the cloud native CNC of the storage landscape document and See if we can extend that same structure here Where like in the storage document we have sections for object store key value stores Categorizations, so if we actually built the same structure here Then I think that what we can think of is High-level framework that describes how the trade-offs and then we can have Specific examples about Projects The one the one confusion I have is is Minio a product or a project or is Both all three So actually, I think that's where the I think it's the confusion is more specific in the fact that it is this one is all free Like so if you just took an open source project like safe But it is a product. I mean it is open source a party. It's licensed Correct. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm talking about like if you for example, Rook is Rook is also a product and so is safe. Oh Okay So So just to clarify though, right? We are we are not building storage use cases We are we are not going to build a catalog of all the storage projects and say This is the best way of deploying these stateful The these these storage systems. It's not about that if the use cases are End user use cases so in some cases there might be some ambiguity because somebody might be deploying a key value store like at CDP and You might want to have a use case which is how do you deploy at CDP? What is the important thing that you need that the storage? Well, you need the file system. You need strong durability. You need strong consistency, for example I think it's okay to say that and I think it's okay to say that's what that CD means And if and if somebody wants to write a use case for console, then fine, let them do it That's the whole point of having a community with GitHub, right? And I think the same thing applies to to other things whether it's, you know, message queues, databases, or any other type of stateful application I think somebody might say this is how you deploy, I don't know, WordPress on on the stateful application You want the shared file system or Or if you're installing WordPress, you want the database with this type of consistency or this particular application needs a key value store with these attributes As the back end. I think those are all perfect things to have here The what we're trying to remove is the ambiguity from the end users that they kind of look at this and they go, okay There are I look at the CNCF landscape and there are You know, 400 different options. How am I even going to where do I even start from right? And this is pointing them to something to say you have these attributes It needs to be a file system or it needs to be a key value store. It needs to be whatever And this is how you can do it. This is this is what we're trying to build here so I'm just trying to keep everybody on track because I Feel like we were having a circular discussion Discussed this five times or anything now put into the points where we're Where we're putting a template together and we're rehashing the same old discussion I So let's stop No, yeah, exactly what I was gonna say because to me when I six storage And again, I complete here. What's that and Quentin? I'm not I'm trying to balance it and Aaron. So I'm not At the nothing no to that. I'm just trying to come up with as a user What can I can can six storage kind of compile down to me for me? Something like a you know, like a card that I can just look at with bullets according to the the storage landscape, I want to do this I want to do the following and Hopefully by being in github Encourages community involvement I'm hearing it if this is what I'm hearing some I'd agree with it that a Document like this that describes storage use cases by class Object store is a class. It is not commingled with sequel based relational databases That would be a different class, but have a document per class Maybe inside that document you could link Examine at the end with links to supplemental documents maintain outside the CNC out that would Go into a deep dot a deeper dive on that particular variant of a solution So something like Minio would be referenced in the class document of Object store, but the actual Minio specific document is outside The CNC app storage takes realm So let me go back. I think we're getting stuck on Minio, but I view it as an app that consumes storage, right? Yeah, I do too But the reason I brought Minio up was just to use it as an example of an object store Okay The document should stick to the class of object store written in a generic enough way that what is said applies to all Examples of object store. So I don't think you'd argue that Minio is the only yeah Yeah, I completely agree and that's what I was saying before that you could add a Rook one you could add a Sep one as optic open sex Swift one They have their own models and down recommendations on the back in store So why don't we can I just be the Let's move on because we spent 46 minutes on this Okay, everyone be fine with removing the use case to mention a product and instead Requiring authors of these use cases to provide at least two different references in the bottom and it Links to somewhere else out. We provide a disclaimer saying we don't the CNCF does not endorse. These are provided purely for reference and Move on is it would everyone feel comfortable with that? Yeah, I think that's a reasonable compromise Perfect Sorry, just just one parting comment and not about Minio. So I think one of our functions here We're supposed to be cloud native storage experts and people are looking for us looking to us for advice and so So I think it's actually fairly reasonable for us to endorse Ways of doing things saying we think this is a good way of Addressing this use case and we think this is a less good way of addressing this use case and sometimes that will involve mentioning open source projects for example And I don't think we should be petrified of doing that. That's our job What we do have to be sure of is making sure we're being objective about this and transparent And for example, if a person writing a document Works for a company that sells product X. They should declare that upfront and And whenever we make recommendations, we should explain why we're making them and what the alternatives on what the pros and cons of the different alternatives are Awesome. Yeah, I appreciate that I think the problem with that approach is that The folks who have the most incentive to go and make the changes are the ones who are getting paid to make those changes Right, so the companies who have products that they're trying to sell are going to be the ones that are very actively trying to manipulate these pages To make their products look good. Yeah, great seems inevitable to me If we become very very product oriented or we have sections that are recommendations for products So I really like Steve's recommendation, which is Let's be generic about the classes or the Kind of categories of storage and the architectures and then leave out the specific product details lead those to the product vendors to To provide because they will inevitably provide their own documentation And then I like the compromise that Aaron said which is hey We could link out to product pages if needed at the bottom put a disclaimer there to say this is not, you know official CNCS indoor stuff. I Think that makes sense. Yeah, I like Aaron suggestion to and maybe add on Just a procedural point that when the PR gets approved maybe Representatives from the people linked below should be on that approval list. So You know in other words if somebody puts Their own product as one of the references and some other product as the second reference Let's have a rule that Somebody associated with that second reference actually approves the text above. Does that make sense? Yeah, actually, that's a good point when I worked in open sex with we made sure that whoever approved the The changes was not the one from the same company, right, right? So I think we should be very clear and actually that's one of the things that may Stop or have a good gate of approved value Documents that go into this repo So, yeah, I'm all for that not I mean sometimes you can't find a person from another company But at least us we can part of the reference here I you know, I see the minial one on the screen if you put a second one there and Put a link to something about that second thing what that was not their preferred entry portal Sure, for example, if I wanted to be nefarious I could link to some five-year-old document that would be bad and we don't want that to happen So I think if somebody's Name product or even open source project is included here that somebody affiliated with that particular Target of the link should at least review the document rather than getting blindsided by some Public document suddenly appearing that they had never seen before okay, so let's Okay, so we're gonna do four things we're going to have the use case be Genericized we're going to provide at least two if not more references to Implementations of that use case with an approval out to those Open-source projects to approve that they want that use case included and it's the appropriate link and We will also add a disclaimer to the references to say these are not endorsed by the CNCF storage SIG merely provided as a reference to implement this particular pattern Is everyone good with that? Can I Are we saying the references are so we're saying the use case becomes a use case Category and then the references are examples of projects in that category That's my understanding Okay, and we think that that's going to be less contentious than actually Creating use cases for specific projects because honestly creating a category and then grouping Products by category seems even more contentious. I'm just I'm slightly more worried about that Well, I would say that the use case for a specific solution or project is linked So it's not like we're saying it doesn't exist. It just There's a top-level document that attempts to cover the category and then provide links to deeper dives into best practices and Considerations for using particular implementations now if those implementations are open source under the CNCF Maybe it belongs under the auspices of this group, but in some cases, maybe these links are going to point to other things You know using the landscape as an example the landscape even allows commercial products Let me it's only eight more minutes. So let me I I I grabbed some of the information that we just talked about today Can I next week is QCon? Maybe I meet with some of you there We'll try to redo the template and so on and then we'll meet after QCon again and see what it's like Let's it would also be good if we could collaborate with the other six Maybe on that Wednesday luncheon to see how they're handling something similar Throughout all the six in the CNCF and then revisit this at the next Yeah, I just want to say thank you for for driving this and my concerns here are not intended to try and derail this I want to keep the momentum going and I just want to make sure that as a sake we don't get embroiled in any more controversy Yeah, I completely agree. I'm with you, man No, it's it's appropriate. So I'm glad we're having the discussion We want to get it right first time So I have one last thought I Think we should one of our objectives is to also make these documents Interesting and useful enough to attract an audience right so if we exclude everything and make it totally uninteresting then No, he's going to lead it and it's not very useful Yeah, yeah, it has to be meaningful people have to Figure out be educated. That's what we're supposed to be doing And if it's just general information, we're not looked at as the subject matter experts Then we're all just wasting our time. I agree with that All right We only have six minutes left So let's move on to the performance and benchmarking doc. Is there an update on this? Yeah, so I'll give a very good update so we put an outline of the doc together and have started populating it We've had a couple of meetings with a group of a Group of people section too many things now with users from Percona and data core and Planet scale and storage us and we've split the We split the the document into sections and we're we're kind of Delegating The ordering of the of each of the sections to different people kind of in a similar fashion to how we did the Storage landscape documents So it's it's it's coming along. There's still quite a bit of work to do But we're hoping that we should be having a draft within a few weeks maybe two weeks Keep kind of roll obviously slow things down some looks Okay Obviously the documents open for for viewing and commenting so would love to to have any Feedback if you think we left something out or if you think other things should be out of it or changed or whatever Um is this What was the tool we were talking about in the last meeting was that the volume benchmark that was free and open that we could use Is that do we capture that? Here from the left. Yes, okay, so so for the volume benchmarks. We were we and the database benchmarks both of them were were free. We also The the Percona and Tasking guys are looking to talk a bit about the The suspense TPCC like benchmarks which Which are open as well which they've been developing so that's we'll go into that into that section there Does anyone have any questions or comments? No, just this I think this is super valuable Alex. Thanks for driving this. I'm actually busy trying to figure out Performance of various different alternatives at the moment and it's a nightmare Trying to find exactly this. Yeah. Thank you Cool great. I think this would make for a great cube con talk in the spring too Because I don't think it's real widely known that these tools exist and how to use them So it would be great to better advertise that out either as part of the SIG or is an individual Yeah, that's a really great idea All right. Thank you for that update and thank you for putting that together the next piece. We have two minutes left Dragonfly we briefly discussed this in The beginning of October and I don't think we Circled back around and so I think we had wanted maybe to do more of a due diligence and had I Don't know sod if we had talked to you or Brad about doing that due diligence For that, but I think that was kind of the next steps Was there did you guys do a coat? Did you guys do a review of it? I have not Heard about this. So maybe Brad has or did I don't know. Okay But I'm happy to follow up. Just let me know we can follow up on slack or email Okay, I don't remember seeing this either It was maybe there weren't maybe it wasn't a well attended meeting We kind of all have a very foggy remembrance of it to be honest, and I think maybe Alex and I talked about it separately. We maybe needed to Have the co-leads also better involved. So it could have been a discussion that Do you mind putting the recording there so I can check it out. Yes, I will do that Thank you. Yeah So so just as a quick background dragon fly was was looking to do a sandbox to incubator Promotion and the talk Proposed that the storage sink have a look the project team has presented to us. There should be a recording and a link to the to the Presentation further down in the meeting minutes and I recall we build some notes But it's kind of unfortunately slipped through the cracks, and I don't think we followed up on it So we we do have an outstanding to do I can do to follow up There were Quitter and I had some concerns About the project, but we need to write it up down some notes and share them so if if one of the techniques wants to Re-review the presentation recording. I'm happy to sync up with them and share my notes as well Should we do like a shared document between all of us to? Just have one place where all the comments are or do you want to do separate docs? That would be a great idea. Let's do that Okay They want to share out. Sorry go ahead. I like some I remember Dragon dragon, but a guy says that Charlie is willing to do a due diligence So I don't know if that's gonna happen. Well, it's up to us to do it. It is up to us to do it okay, and the process is still pretty squirrely from digs doing it to the TOC because the other thing that happened is I believe they presented to us and then the following week They also presented to the TOC so we have to Better iron out that process being so thank you for bringing that up and I'll include both Recordings in here as well and then be specific. I'll think up with Saad separately and we'll figure out the due diligence Thank you. All right guys. We're over time I've notated in the agenda where what items we didn't get to so we can talk about them on the next meeting I'm looking forward to seeing all of you at QCon and Have a great rest of your week. Thank you. Take care. Thanks. Thank you all