Hey everyone, welcome to modern day debate. I'm your moderator tonight Justin tonight's topic is the Koran Scientific we have Osean discussing with Nadir on that exact topic Nadir the floor is all yours Well, thank you, and thank you Osean for agreeing to debate this topic You know a lot of people would not be sitting in Osean's position In fact, so basically what happened is there's been a lot of discussions and debates on Koran and science and the atheist You know I had a it didn't go well for them And now what we're finding is that people are from the atheist community from as well as Christian They're very reluctant in debating Koran and science. In fact, I can't even find anybody to Debate this topic and that's the first Miracle of the holy Koran is that it is emerging here on modern-day debate as being something Unchallengeable You can look at those people who have those big YouTube channels they have tried to debate this topic and and it did not go well for them and and the evidence for that is now They have all basically withdrawn from trying to challenge the science of the Koran and I'll just give you one example in My last debate with Matt Dilla hante at 101 47 right around there When asked how do you explain the scientific miracle of the Koran? They said this is magic that was from one of his own followers They even his own followers conceded that the Koran is supernatural. So what Osean is doing here He's just filling the void. He's filling the void left behind By the retreating atheists and apologists because it's because the Koran in science is going to do Terrible damage to their careers to their YouTube channels And so he heard me mention this in my last debate and so he's just doing damage control He he doesn't want this, you know, this title of Unchallengeability to go to the Koran and science. So what is this great? scientific miracle of the Koran Well, there's one of which I'm going to discuss tonight is How the Koran Corrects the scientific errors of the Bible now you say okay, but Osean is an atheist He's not a Christian. Well, so what it's just book a and book B a man for a man 1,400 years ago shouldn't be correcting any book shouldn't be presenting anything scientifically superior So so it doesn't matter if you're if you're an atheist or not It is still a miracle and also you got to understand Christians are very Very careful on what topics they're going to debate. They are not going to participate in topics like Which challenges the scientific errors in their books because they know that they're Their answers are apologetic responses are not convincing. So they're very careful That's why I have to debate atheists to be very honest as you I want to Bible debates Now most of my debates actually are with atheists Because their Christians will not participate in those type of debates Muslims will though and I think that's a great thing about Islam because we have nothing to hide now What is this great scientific miracle? Let's take a look at it. So this is misery This is suffering as you see on your screen. If you guys are watching I'm sharing my desktop right now So this is misery and suffering that you see on your screen. These are caused by the scientific errors of the Bible However, what you are going to find is that Islam actually corrects these scientific errors so the best way to illustrate that is by playing a little game and By the way, I'm gonna go through this very quickly I'm just gonna give you a summary and then we can go in more detail But all my arguments all my points. I have already submitted to Ozean So he knows everything of what I'm talking about so Now this is very interesting If we got to look at this if Mohammed is not a true prophet then that means he's copying out of the Bible How do we know that because there's so many similarities between the two like Moses parting the seas that's found in both the Bible and the Quran But in addition to that we find the New Testament talks about mustard seeds alcohol washing hands divorce epilepsy and meat consumption well Surprisingly Mohammed talks about those same things mentioned in the Quran and the Hadith We don't believe the Quran is the words of Mohammed, but I'm just saying that that's interesting What's going on over here? Am I missing this is how many Okay, I think there's seven of them. Yeah, so so so what's interesting what's going on over here? It I think it's pretty obvious for everybody here that obviously Mohammed thinks he can do a better job and answering these questions Then the very New Testament is doing So does he let's find out if so, let's do a cut Let's let's play this little game over here We're gonna use science to see who gives the best answer Choose the best answer and let's see who doesn't let's see. In fact, let me check mark that Let's see who does a better job now if Jesus scores these I think there's seven of these one two three four five No, never mind There's six because I'm missing one muster teed alcohol washing hands divorce epitome consumption and there's one which I'm missing Which I don't know which one it is. Anyways, let's do six if Jesus wins Six zero then everybody should bow down and worship him as God Seriously, he saw this coming and Mohammed could not beat him if Mohammed wins six zero then he should be accepted as a true prophet and If eight if it's like an even spread like three or four then maybe atheism could be true, right? He gets some right. He gets some right something like that, but if seven zero then Ozean's atheism has been demolished Okay, that's not supposed to happen people don't have that ability in the in the seventh century So I'm gonna go through this very quickly Because I know I don't have very much time here mustard seed Jesus says in the Bible supposedly, of course, we believe in Jesus are the great Messiah prophet But unfortunately the New Testament doesn't accurately represent him He said that the that the mustard seed is the smallest of all seeds is the smallest seed you plant in the ground Wrong, it's not the smallest seed Mohammed says also uses the mustard seed as an example But guess what he doesn't Repeat that scientifically incorrect statement about it being the smallest seed So that's very interesting. If Mohammed is supposed to be copying out of the Bible He would have copied that scientific error. So round one goes to Prophet Muhammad. Very good You didn't repeat the scientifically incorrect statement alcohol Both these books talk about alcohol science today says that Muslim women are 50 times less likely to give birth to a fetal alcohol child and And and and it's accredited the teachings of Islam the Bible has no scientific graphic Recognition on the on their view of alcohol now some say okay Well, you know alcohol is good for your heart. Therefore, no the evil of alcohol the harm outweighs any good Whether it's good for your heart or whatever. So that's the scientific position on alcohol And that's actually explicitly stated in the Quran. So check mark number two very good Mohammed wins that round to washing hands Some disciples some people came to to Jesus and said the disciples are not washing their hands before they eat Jesus gets argumentative about it.   You're a whore not my words But the words of born-again-spirit filled Christians and they put that action not all Christians practice that because they can see how absurd it is But a lot of Christians do a lot of Christians who debate here on on modern-day debate do that as well They believe in that that's it one time Mohammed allows divorce Irregardless, and I'm living proof of that my ex-wife threw me out 14 years ago Unceremoniously so I am living proof of that miracle right there.  Nashed his teeth grit his teeth and started foaming at the mouth these are all the symptoms of epilepsy which is actually mentioned in the Bible and So how are you able to tell the difference between the two you can't and scientific research Which I've already presented to ozian pointed out that because of the New Testament's confusion between what a demon possessed person what a What a person allegedly you know who's epileptic you can't tell the difference from the New Testament now They've all been stigmatized Person who had this Seizures came to prophet Muhammad and He said I will pray for you which about what's important here. He didn't accuse him of being demon possessed thus stigmatizing all Epileptic people as being demon possessed and the scientific research paper ozian has already looked at that It's not my words when I'm saying they're being stigmatized. That's actually does an actual fact so let me go in and Checkmark that Muhammad gives a better answer then finally on meat consumption Christianity allows you to eat all kinds of meat all restrictions are lifted Muhammad says do not but that's a mistake because CDC has issued a warning do not eat bats and monkeys because these are Carrier diseases like Ebola and AIDS Muhammad reinstitutes the restrictions and says do not do not eat animals with fangs So there you go. That is exactly what CDC was was was recommending Ozean has a research on that I presented that to him as well So here we have a perfect score one two three four five six. There's a one which is missing, but I don't know where it is six zero Muhammad gave scientifically superior answers and did the better job on answering all of these and that's the miracle of Islam One or two. Okay, you got lucky. There's no miracle there But to score six out of zero that blows away atheism and that sure does blow away What's it called a Christianity? So You know, that is what ozian has to be there. He needs to explain How did Muhammad? Correct so many or provide better explanations on all of these issues and my time zone All right. Thank you, sir All right, and that was Nadir's opening statement. Thank you so much Ozean, I've got 10 minutes here for you as well. The floor is all yours, but Hey, he needs to stop sharing screen. No, it's fine. Oh, yeah, he needs because you want to share, right? Yeah All right, go ahead. All right Is it crime scientific? No, but I prefer to explore questions like this with a more nuanced approach with a deep Appreciation for both religious beliefs and scientific discovery I offer my perspective not as a challenge to faith But it's an opportunity to dive deeper into the distinct roles that religion and science play in our lives Let us go beyond conventional thinking break down these barriers and then cover the truth together I may be an atheist, but I have many Muslims with whom I respect his friends and our exploration of truth Thank you Justin a modern day debate for hosting this discussion and thank you Nadir For exploring this topic with me tonight. I'll go through your scorecard during the open discussion As Muhammad peace be upon him called for wisdom in Surah al-Majudeh 51 811 out box these Pronunciation, sorry God will raise those who have believed among you and those who were given knowledge by degrees and God is acquainted with what you do And in Surah al-Bakara to 269 which highlights the value of wisdom granted by Allah He gives wisdom to who he wills and whoever has been given wisdom has certainly been given much good and None will remember except those of understanding I appeal to the wisdom of the Muslims that are watching this video tonight to consider this argument The Quran is a beacon of spiritual guidance Revered as a word of Allah in Islam and serves as a guide of practical living is poetic verses and profound teachings have inspired countless individuals and shaped civilizations Making a spiritual significant and sensual in our discussion Science is a methodological Exploration that the natural world through observation experimentation It's rise on questioning testing of revising based on observable facts to explain the how and why of the universe Scientific findings and historical religious texts like the Quran may appear similar for example both promote and Washington for various reasons However, it's important to consider these intersections in the respective contexts the Quran's teachings encompass Various rituals including hand washing which you have to really find out from the hadiths how to do it properly Which are linked to spiritual purification on the other hand the scientific endorsement of hand washing for hygiene was formed based on germ theory and Empirical research which emerged at a later time Science aims to gain insight through testable and possible methods in contrast The teachers the Quran are rooted in faith and divine revelation Making them beyond the scope of empirical testing or validation by scientific means The Quran's teachings were shaped by the societal norms and beliefs of 7th century Arabia Offering guidance that aligned with the cultural and moral landscape of its time and Contracts science is not bound by a scientific historical or cultural context Its principles are universally applicable not limited by time or location and driven by the current understanding of our natural world Epistemic luck means believing something true without knowing why it's true Like the Quran's early advice on washing hand matches what we know about germs today, but it wasn't based on germ science It's like guessing the right answer without understanding why it's right seeing the Quran is scientific because of this epistemic luck It get it got things right, but not through scientific methods However, this doesn't lessen the Quran's importance and guiding people on how to live morally Epistemic pragmatism is a practical approach to knowledge Empathizing theories that yield tangible beneficial results take for example the scientific methods application to developing vaccines Through empirical testing the evidence science produces practical solution to prevent diseases in contrast Religious texts offer spiritual and moral guidance, which while immensely valuable doesn't follow the same pragmatic test-improve approach of science It's like comparing a road map such as science that guides you to a specific location With the philosophical book religion that enriches your understanding of life's journey without providing their physical route It is important to distinguish between religion and science the Quran serves as a spiritual guide offering existential and ethical wisdom while science helps us understand the natural world through empirical insights Blurring the lines between the Quran and the scientific documents and result in problematic Understandings and may create unrealistic hopes for the Quran to offer scientific explanations, which is not its purpose This can also devalue the importance of scientific methods that rely on observable evidence and testing This blurring of lines can confuse followers as our scientific knowledge Changes and could erode the spiritual foundation the Quran provides and see the eventual decline of Islam throughout the world I may value that Encouraging Muslims to see the Quran as a spiritual and ethical guide rather than a scientific manual Allow us for a deeper understanding of its true purpose His perspective helps us to appreciate the Quran is its intended context as a source of moral guidance Ethical direction and spiritual wisdom Although the Quran is a powerful spiritual guide It should not be treated as a scientific textbook This sacred text offers valuable lessons on faith and morality But his teachings are centered around divine inspiration rather than empirical research By recognizing this distinction, we can fully appreciate the essence of the Quran And also support the ongoing pursuit of knowledge through science Which relies on observation experimentation and evidence Like the sacred texts of Christianity and Judaism These spiritual guides should not be taken as sources of scientific knowledge The ancient beliefs of biblical cosmology, worldwide floods And a young earth may have significance in the respect of religions But they do not align with current scientific understanding It is important to recognize the differences between faith and fact when it comes to interpreting these texts The path ahead for both believers and non-believers requires constructing a bridge between faith and science Acknowledging that each has its own valuable insights to offer in our quest for knowledge Faith provides guidance for living a moral and purposeful life While science sheds light on the workings of the physical world By respecting the unique strengths and limitations of both, we can answer a collective human experience Education is crucial in promoting this understanding By educating our communities about the principles of scientific research and spiritual and ethical teachings Of various belief systems, we can cultivate a more sophisticated comprehension of both Additionally, engaging an open dialogue between religious leaders, philosophers, scientists, me and the deer Can enhance this understanding by emphasizing the significance of each field and addressing any misunderstandings that may exist When it comes to navigating sensitive discussions in diverse religions and philosophical settings Respect and understanding are essential It is important to recognize and acknowledge the deeply held beliefs of individuals from different backgrounds Whether they identify as Muslim, Christian, or Atheists And approach these conversations with empathy and openness This creates a positive and constructed atmosphere for dialogue to take place It is crucial to acknowledge that human understanding has evolved over time The Quran was revealed during a time when the scientific methods we use today did not exist Its teachings were primarily focused on spiritual and ethical matters With the advancement of science or knowledge about the natural world has expanded And this does not diminish the spiritual significance of the Quran But rather emphasizes its unique role in guiding believers in this scientific movement That is perfectly miracles as a 20th century movement too The diverse, okay Our world is enriched by its diversity, encompassing a wide range of beliefs, ideas, and viewpoints When we acknowledge that the Quran and science can coexist harmoniously in the respective spheres It expands our perspective. This allows believers to fully embrace their faith While also respecting the realm of scientific exploration and its impact on our comprehension of the cosmos The phrase scientific miracle may seem contradictory because it is It's two opposing ideas science Which relies on observable evidence and logical reasoning to understand the natural world and miracle Which suggests an event that transcends those explanations Science uses controlled experiments to explain phenomena While miracles are often seen as unexplainable extraordinary occurrences As a result, labeling something as scientific miracle creates a contradiction As science seeks to understand things in a way that does not allow for the unexplainable nature Of miracles To sum it up the Quran gives us priceless advice on how to live a good life and to be a better people While science help us figure out how the world works The Quran isn't meant to be a science book and that's okay. Its real power is in its spiritual and moral lessons Let's appreciate both science and religion for what they offer We both add something special to our lives or communities and our quest to understand life and find meaning Even though i am an atheist and don't follow Islam or believe in the Quran I really respect my friends who are a muslim christian jewish and hindu and of any faith What matters to me is if they aim to live a good life try to lessen the pain of others feel And work to make a world we all In love for a long time and I conclude my argument All right. Thank you ozzy and Before we get into the open discussion I just want to remind everybody that this is modern day debate is an open platform We like to give everybody the opportunity to speak their mind share ideas and well have discussions Don't be shy of that like button over there I could I could really go for some likes right now and if you're not subscribed now is a good opportunity for you to do so Um, there's more debates coming up in 2024 for sure and you're going to want to be subscribed So you don't miss any of those Uh right now i'm going to reset my clock. Oh by the way after the debate Don't forget a couple things one. There's an after show on a channel called matters now Also, I'm going to hang out after the debate a little bit Um, so if you guys have any questions about me and who I am We'll spend a few minutes and um, I'd like you guys to get to know me and maybe I'll get to know you Who knows anyways, we've got 50 minutes Uh cut out here for some open discussion time. Um, as I told you guys backstage My job will basically be to just sit here unless you guys start to get a little mean or talk over each other With that the floor is yours gentlemen You're muted, um the deer Yeah, I do want to talk about the mustard seed first unless you got something as specific to say about my opening Yeah, I I have something specific to say. How do you explain us wearing the same outfit today? Is that some kind of coincidence? Oh, it's the same color. Okay. So actually I don't I don't have a superman thing but Close enough. I was going to ask you to take it off actually So you want me to take it off? Like, no, I mean, no, but that's okay. You got a superman emblem on that So we don't have the same. It's a different t-shirt. It's the same color. Okay. Yeah, so yeah Can we stay on topic please gentlemen? Okay, so my yeah, so to the mustard seed. Um, okay So well, well, I think it's clear that Muhammad clearly gave the better Explanate I mean the better answer here on mustard seed by avoiding the explicit scientifically Wrong statement as we find in the New Testament. Do you have any problems with that? Yeah Well, first of all, it wasn't a scientific claim in the New Testament. It was just a claim. It's a parable a parable about things um Coming from small beginnings into large things So like the idea that I'll plant this seed of this idea of Christianity and Christianity will Grow up into this worldwide religion. So that's sort of the parable And if you're talking to people within the community, you're going to use concepts that they understand So the people that he was speaking to would understand what a mustard seed was and how to mustard seed crew So, um, he could just a small seed but often when we talk in parable Uh, we just talk about what the people know Like he's speaking metaphorically, right? Yeah, absolutely. And and we have I mean, we have evidence of that too. Sure. Okay. Well, let me hear look. I got the verse right in front of you I'm sure in my desktop. Let's see Yeah, good. And let's see if this is all just metaphorical So anyway, see this is the cop out which all these religious people jews christians Hindus do when you show them explicit scientific contradiction in their book It's a it's a metaphor. It's allegorical. It's a metaphor.  That's the miracle ozn This is the miracle you are going to see in not just in this debate But in all the debates which i've done we never have to play that silly interpretation game Rather, it's a role reversal.  Well, this contradicts science Or this is not right. It will be responded with facts and references to back that up. So you are definitely No, it's not even about scientific claims. There's lots of claims within the well, like an example like The prediction that supposedly mohammed made about the Roman Persian war where they'd gone back and forth over the time for a long time So it's like calling the a football game. Hey, you actually Got it right. But just the fact that you got it right who was going to win at the end Doesn't mean you predicted any future event. So it's sort of a post talk Rationalization of the claims. So it's a parable. So let's talk about the mustard seed. Oh, okay So I've got the verse right in front of me what the bible explicitly says Is that the mustard seed is in mat and mark chapter 4 verse 30 and 30 32 It's the smallest seed you plant in the ground. That's false It says that it's the smallest of all seeds. This is false. That's actually that's in matthew chapter 13 verse 31 to 32 So the fact so that's why I scored mohammed as giving doing the better Uh, you you know the better answer here because you see you can play the metaphorical allegorical interpretation game But but that's just it you're just taking an explicit passage and you're spinning it to make it the problem go away So you believe it makes more sense Not to mention these wrong statements and that's what we find in islam So I don't think you're able to argue that islam did give a better Example of the mustard seed because it doesn't have the problematic stuff in it Are you seeing the Quran doesn't talk about in metaphor? Let's take the six days. Do you believe in the six day creation? Yes, I do believe in that six literal days six literal days No, not six. Then it's false. Then it's false. It's a scientific false because you're You're taking as a parable. Well, I get to speak too. I just let you speak about this What can we talk about the mustard? I am going back to the mustard seed. So you can look at the Six day creation that wasn't a literal six days, right? Anybody I think who's but but there are Christian fundamentalists who will argue it's a literal six days. They believe science is false So like arguing within their own world, you would sort of be eflatious So that is the same thing here. So you could say, okay, so this did it literally mean The smallest seed is it's a parable describing small things reaching like large things, right? Like Your your small faith in God will blossom into this magical thing that can move mountains But did he actually literally mean you could move mountains? right Okay, so going back to the thing about the days, uh, you know, we can talk about Uh, whether if Islam contradicts science and I will answer you on that I'll show it's actually perfectly acceptable to say the earth was created in six days But the problem here is you you've got to now use this smooth Interpretation smooth over game to try to reconcile the problem, which is what you're doing But I don't think you're able to you're doing the same thing. Hold on a second Not with mustard seed. We can do the day's thing and just a second special pleading Let's let's finish one issue at a time here So with mustard seed out, we don't have to do this interpretation game, which I don't buy. That's a problem It's not just nadir. Okay. This is not nadir or Ahmed's argument Many atheists will point out the same exact thing that this is scientifically incorrect And we just don't accept the interpretation spin put on it And and that's okay. So the problem not this atheist What we know what we can say as a fact is what's explicitly written in the bible is problematic That's undeniable, but Islam doesn't the the mustard seed example in Islam doesn't have that problem So that we can I don't see you're able that's why I gave Muhammad the check mark alcohol, let's move on to the next one No, no, no, first of all, like you're just automatically assigning the wind Of course a mustard seed, but you haven't like, okay, does the crowd you ever think anything is A parable within the ground Yes, there's parables. Look, it's you know, how do you okay? Let me okay. That's good. Do you know how do you determine the difference between What is meant to be literal and what's meant to be a parable? When it's something which is obviously true I mean which which is kind of obvious being like for example In the Quran it says lower thy wing to your parents. Well, we know we don't have wings Look, there's a scientific errors. Do I got wings? No, but here we can see everybody knows human beings don't have wings And when the Quran actually said that it's speaking in a metaphorical way So that's something I can give to you. I can give to everybody and we can appreciate Acknowledge and say, yeah, that's a metaphor. So that's how I'm able to understand it So how is this a scientific error specifically because science allows for errors So within the domain of science scientific inquiry when we do observations We do testing at one time in science that might have been okay To see the mustard seed was a small seed because that's what we observed That's what we were able to measure. So we knew within that region that the mustard seed was the smallest seed So for that to be a scientific claim was okay. That's not a scientific error. The good thing about science It's a science can reevaluate its claims So if you want to say that the it's a science and science to evolve and develop as our understanding changes Which neither of these books are doing neither of these books are giving the explanation for why We knew the mustard seed was the smallest seed or whatever Why with six days why this is considered to be parable and not be able not be taken literally it doesn't explain that Okay, so you're not getting it. You see the problem. I do know what is explicitly written. Don't tell me what I don't get I do get it. Let me you've had your chance to speak. Let me let me talk What is explicit? We just see let me explain to you where the scientific miracle is you see we have to All the wacky quacky interpretations put them aside and just look at what we know to be factually true I will admit once you plaster on all these wacky quacky interpretations and there is no miracle The miracle of the Quran is when you just look at the facts What we know to be a fact is what is explicitly word for word written in the book is incorrect No, the mustard seed is not the smallest seed Then you got to plaster on all this interpretation allegorical metaphorical Stuff to make the problem go away. Now that satisfies you. That's okay ozian, but i'm only I only look at what is factually What is factually true? You can have your interpretation. So the issue here is A lot of people are not going to buy into that interpretation. What we know for a fact is mustard seed is problematic It's problematic in the bible. You need interpretation to make the problem go away. How's that problematic? So what okay? You said it causes suffering too in your opening. Yeah now let's get to alcohol How did wait wait? How does believing the mustard seeds the smallest seed cause suffering? Okay, not it was alcohol, but I'm not with mustard seed, but with my next example, which is alcohol But you do in your opening you cover about how all these things cause suffering not so the mustard seed isn't one of those That's yeah, thank god that one at least is okay now. We're getting into problems. Okay, so there's no Yeah, now so when we look at it zero zero right now so far neither is Proving that they're that's because you're not looking at the facts. Oh, they're not scientific claims So it can't be a scientific variable No, you are not looking at facts. You are looking at wacky talking interpretations You're talking about observations on science and science. What is explicitly the observations wrong? The observations all right, there's a lot of over talking a little bit here Oz I believe you've made your point. Uh, so Nadir, please carry on with your next point Yes So what is written look where the scientific miracle is is slum is is by looking at the facts What we know to be factually true and all the interpretations you put aside When you're able to do that That's where the miracle is so now with alcohol it's as you know, and you read the study I believe because it's a lot alcohol is a dangerous drug basically And uh, Islam gave the right dosage on alcohol, which is none and as a scientific study showed Muslim women are 50 times less likely than the global average to give birth to a child with brain damage called fetal alcohol syndrome and the same study said to to Really study this disease. You got to go to the Christians. That's where you're going to find this. So what my point here is That once again, we see a much better answer on alcohol Then the bible so that's why I gave it the check mark over here Wait, are you seeing that if somebody if the doctor says somebody needs to Consume alcohol for medical reasons they ought not do it For medical reasons. Yeah, sure if you if you are needed for medical reasons, and that's perfectly fine Even in the Quran, it's okay to use it for medical reasons. That's fine But what we we've got to go back to the study in what I'm going to challenge you in what well No, so the correct dosage is a bible's answer is better than what islam is saying what in what way So the correct dosage isn't zero just to be clear, right? Correct dosage is zero Let me get you that's no, but you just said it was okay if it was for medical reasons. So In some cases They in some cases like for example in mouthwash They have some alcohol in it, but at the same time they have non-alcoholic Wash as well like nine quill. You've got alcoholic and non non-alcoholic It's just a hypothetical if there was a hypothetical reason you needed alcohol to survive Can I can I sure I would change your opinion right that it was okay to drink alcohol Can I can I share my desktop real quick here? Uh, can you see my screen? Uh, I understand fetal syndrome like alcohol fetal This is what this is what science is saying. Look, let's let's read very carefully from the cnn article You're not sharing anything at the moment there. Oh, I'm sorry about that. Let me share real quick. Um, yeah No amount of alcohol is good for you overall health over your overall health global studies that this is cnn Yeah, many studies have shown that the overall health risk of drinking alcohol outweighs any benefits Now look what the Quran says other word agreement They have some benefit for people But their harm is far greater than their benefit This is word for word agreement with the re with what the research is telling us So there's benefits. There are some benefits in but are you not reading it says many the overall Yeah, they both say there's benefits outweighs any benefits. That's exactly what the Quran says, right? It's word for word agreement. So when uh, when the Quran said not to drink any alcohol That's scientifically acceptable when you go to your doctors and they'll ask you do you drink alcohol and you check mark? No, he'll say good man. He's not gonna say what you don't drink beer Okay, that's not science They both say there's benefits for alcohol both You're just saying that the detriments outweigh the benefits. So there are benefits and there are determinants But you scaled it to one's worse than the other. It's all you're saying So you're better off not drinking any alcohol. Well, they both do the same thing They're both saying the same thing for a bit there. Let's let us They're both saying there are benefits, but they're both saying there's the detriments outweigh the benefits So in the in the grand scheme of things you shouldn't drink alcohol But you did admit that there might be cases where there are benefits Where people ought to drink alcohol if there are medical benefits to doing so now overall most people should probably avoid alcohol I agree with that. Okay But that that also within the Quran is not a scientific claim because it doesn't explain why it causes Beetle syndrome It doesn't explain why it causes all these other issues and we knew within cultures around the area Here's been bands on alcohol from culture of the culture through different area It's no unique thing just to Islam in general that we would bound alcohol. Okay, so I so you're not even in this discussion Okay, I'm gonna tell you absolutely in the discussion. Okay. Here's I'm here Missing here's what you're missing the issue here. I'm going to go right back to my chart. Who's giving the better answer You are not even arguing Against my argument that if you this is about one book correcting the other giving a better answer You're not even arguing the case. No, look Jesus gave a very good answer over here, too Therefore Islam answers sucks actually so the check mark goes to Jesus here You're not arguing anything about the check marks. You're just saying well, I would like this to see this I'd like to see that The issue here tonight. I'm putting the check mark for alcohol It's clear Islam gave the the scientifically superior answer So now this right now destroys all of Christianity because because now the question which you have to raise And the Christians have to answer. I mean is okay if Jesus is God then how do you explain That an alleged false prophet came and saved millions of children from fetal alcohol syndrome brain damage While the true lord and savior let them perish So the check mark goes to alcohol. Let's go to washing hands Now I now once again another problem here. You're not gonna let me close that like Are you that the Islamic answer is not as good as a Christian answer if you're not gonna argue that I want to argue that neither of them were a scientific answer. This is not a scientific claim It's a ritualistic social like thing that they wanted to an Institute for Islam is not a scientific claim. So any time you see it's some scientific claim That's just not the case just because there's a coincidence between what science says Currently and science could change because our knowledge could change in the future alcohol Yeah, so that's another wacky wacky interpretation what you're trying to Redefine what scientific means when I say this is scientific scientific claim I'm quoting the study right over here, which I'm sharing my screen if you can see it This is what the scientist from the european child and adelaide psychiatry 2009 2019 study states the Islamic faith promotes abstinence from alcohol and it says as a result They're 50 times lower than the global average. Is this scientifically significant? Yes, it made this research paper as well as others by mind you. So when you say this is not scientific Then this is your quacky interpretation This goes back to the Islamic argument that really has won every debate if you put aside the the interpretations And just look at what we know to be factually true That's where the miracle is so wacky quacky interpretations about the mustard seed Wacky quacky interpretations about what is scientific? You know, this is where I see your problem here. Oh, that's actually true This is this is not a factual true statement right here. This is a scientific claim So when it comes to it's it's the case. So science doesn't prove anything first of all, right? So i'm not being wacky daddy Ducky doodle about science science in the first place does not prove anything It's uses inductive reasoning to as a best explanation for what we know Which means what we know can change in the future using the scientific method, which is this is a Systematic study of destruction behavior of the physical and natural world through observation experimentation and the testing of theories against the evidence obtained None of which is done in the crotch. So the the what happens here if it comes in the future they find out Scientifically that you should drink alcohol you ought to drink alcohol That's the case if they do that people are convinced to become Muslim because of this type of claim They're going to lose their faith in Islam because Science is going to contradict this but this should be a spiritual ritual thing Not a scientific claim. Tell that to the scientists They're the ones who cited the Quran and Islam as being this contributing factor. So you need to now Those aren't science so that's not science you're appealing to either I am showing. Let's look at the study again The Islamic faith promotes absence of alcohol and it goes on This is what the scientists have credited the religion of Islam This is this isn't a scientific claim. This is not a scientific paper. Okay, let's look at this It's the european child and adolescence psychiatry. That's okay. Let's let's open the article here It's an article This is the article which i'm quoting from. Yes Okay, the casual web a fetal alcohol spectrum Uh disorder and review of casual Diagram, okay, and it it talks and it goes on these are the scientists right here listed here So, what are you seeing there? They're not seeing Islam. They're seeing the lack of drinking alcohol What creates better alcohol and Islam's prohibition against alcohol Will mean there's less of those type of syndrome Yes, they're crediting the read carefully are crediting the religion of Islam The Islamic faith promotes abstinence from alcohol and abstinence is as high among muslims And then it tells that they are 50 times less likely to give birth to an f as child That's the first study. Let's look at another study theory of minds and children with fetal alcohol spectrum disorders As I agree. Yeah, now, but it's not a scientific claim. It's it's this This here is not a scientific claim about Islam The scientific claim would be about what causes fecal fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, which is drinking What you're seeing is a any type of culture So they're looking at a major culture that prohibits the drinking alcohol Any culture that prohibits the drinking alcohol will have this consequence, right? So it's just a fact that they call not necessarily Yeah, well, how not? Okay, but that's irrelevant to my argument Uh osian about who's really doing the who gave the better answer Look, you have in no way shown that the new testament answer has any merit whatsoever So the check mark stays and we need to move on because the issue here the miracle I mean the questions you're asking. Yeah, we could talk about that, but I don't see it How that's relevant to the argument which I'm presenting tonight that book b gives better answers and book a on these issues And that is clearly a better answer now washing hands. It's not scientific You know, okay, you seem to have your own the issue is not what you can have your own private definition of what scientific is But what I'm getting you to understand is we have better answers on these issues in Islam And let's get to washing hands now washing hands.     How well where does it say then the crown how many times you should wash your hands? Okay, that we can get into let's let's let's take a look at this uh right here What the actual hadith said said over here? Oh the hadith not the crown so it's this is not muhammad then this is the hadith Whenever okay, what the what the text here. So what's interesting here is muhammad is re-instituting washing hands as a ritual it says over here And it was narrated from aisha that as a messenger of Allah wanted his sleep while he was in jinnu He would perform adhu and he if he wanted to eat he would wash his hands Thus overruling the new testament here on so this no so this isn't a chronic claim This is a claim of the hadith yes, but we follow both Now what's interesting is not the science also says you should so it doesn't mean the crown scientific It means that deeth is scientific. Well, why okay, you're telling me I shouldn't be using hadith No, I'm not telling you that this is if is the crown scientific. So you're claiming the crown Well, we should follow hadith too, right? Okay, um, I don't care what you follow That's your own religious faith and it shouldn't be guided by Well, it should conform to the scientific claim as a post-hoc rationalization if you want to Which is what I think you're doing with all these claims, but you shouldn't um Yeah, anyways, I'll let you continue. Okay. So science. I understand. Watch your hand. It's good. It's And clip your nail now science also says clip your nails Now do we have a hadith which says to clip your wash your hands in clip your nails? The answer is yes He said to in the following hadith Allah's messenger said to basically to clip the nails So we save your pubic hairs and clean and clean the pubic hairs. Okay, of course And cut your moustaches. What's what's the health benefits of all that? The part underlined here is to clip your nail not thinking about the health benefits though What's the health benefits of clipping pubic hair? Okay, that is irrelevant to the fact that Muhammad gave a better answer on washing hands So the now now Wins the recognition of the scientific community in the following research article Uh guidelines on on uh on hand hygiene and health care Listen to what the research says is that the prophet Muhammad always urged Muslims to wash hands frequently And especially after some clearly defined tasks So it has received recognition.  So we are going to have an open eye He gave the better answer. Oh, is he and you can you are free to uh to to to guess how that is But the question is what you're not getting here. It is a better answer than what jesus gave. Okay, let me pubic hairs So it it wasn't a scientific claim. It didn't explain why you should wash your hand. It was a ritual and The jesus was arguing with the Pharisees the jews Previously that they were richly washing hands and he was seeing He was being scolded by them because jesus and the parable was saying What I worry more about is how you Behave how you treat other people Not the ritual of washing your hand be free food Right. I already showed out the contradiction in that so That's not a contradiction. It's the parable yet again. Yeah, it's all metaphorical how you should live your life It's all marital all these scientific errors are look at all this wacky quack interpretations being being spread along the text to make the To make the errors go away. Look, there is no one should be taken metaphorically What the what look again?  He got mad. He said he went on this big tirade and they said washing your hands Ritually or like as a ritual you don't need to do that. This is an and what else did he say? Why did he see that? Why did he see that don't be this one? It's not the claim. No, no, no, no It is an act of stupidity.  What's more important washing your hands or not harming other people What does this say you're not quoting into context. What's it variable about? Okay, you seem to be misunderstanding the text what jesus did he went on a rant about following god's law Which you should want to follow god's law. You want to follow man's law? Which one you want to follow? That's what his rant was about. Listen when washing your what do you think? Okay, listen, let me Follow god's law or a man's law. What do you believe? Okay?   Just please wash your hands, dude. Come on. Let's see. Well, I'm living in 2024 a different world. Okay And so there is no good reason Not to to to argue against something like that to start an argument about washing your hands Okay, and and so that wasn't the message that wasn't the message in the pair of all The message in the pair of all the Pharisees care more about following man's law and that what god wants Which is to follow like the contradiction and all that contradiction I've already pointed out to you and that whole reasoning is all contradictory because If god wants you to be healthy does washing your hands before you eat make you healthy. Yes Where does it say god wants you to be healthy? That is a teaching of the bible your body is your temple.  Okay, so that's where the contradiction is But you're not so that's in the that's in the old testament that god wants you to be healthy You're not really addressing the argument that the real crux of the matter is if you look at the islamic response It's just a better answer. That's all I'm trying to get at over here. So let's look at divorce You know, this is again another nightmare where we're another example where islam alleviates the misery and suffering of people I mean if a 16 year old girl gets divorced And let's say there's kids involved. Why should those kids have to suffer? Why should those? You know, why should a 16 year old girl have to suffer for the rest of her life? Not remarrying. I don't know if you've ever been to church, but every once in a while You will see women and people there who have never been remarried because They had a fight in their relationship and the relationship ended and they'll say, yeah No, the bible only allows divorce on marriage and uh, I'm sorry on on death and adultery now catholics have their annulments But that's another reinterpretation Plastering over the text to make the problem go away. So now mohammed comes and allows divorce for Pretty much any reason and I'm living any reason pretty much. Yeah So what reason it doesn't have guidance at all in the Quran for when you can do she should go to the court system She should go through the court system talk to people pretty much. There is nobody No women is not going to get a divorce If she doesn't want to you cannot live in an unhappy relationship. That's for sure So divorce has been there's an entire chapter chapter 60. I think of divorce in the Quran So once again is slum is alleviating the needless misery and suffering which I have seen myself And if you go to church, you'll find those people There's no reason for people to live like this. Now, of course catholics. They've got their annulments, but that's just some Interpretation scam. So that's christianity. They they're the largest christian group in the world Um, they have like they're probably I don't know if they're the larger than sunnis probably more sunnis and catholics Sure I'm pretty close I'm just going by what the explicit text actually says now You can't go by the explicit test. You got to go by the theology The theology is what matters not the not you almost said I gotta go by the interpretations Look, I have already said theology is about the interpretation. They're all it's about the interpretation of the text Where the scientific miracle of islam is is in the facts. Well, we can say for factually true That's where the miracle is islam is a fact-based religion. There's no fact There's no fact in matter about divorce like there's no fact in matter about marriage either Well, you can get a divorce women can get a divorce just because she doesn't like her husband Well, that's fine. That's a fact But those are all human there are human constructs in the first place. They're nothing Scientific there's nothing you're not getting it. I'm saying that's a better answer than what we find in the new testament So there's not a scientific claim in this ozien. You're like You're seeing it's a scientific claim. So it's not a scientific claim to you then, right? You're just seeing this Divorce is preferable than no divorce falls under family science. This is a scientific claim Family science. It's not family science. We talked about it's a social claim Family science. Okay. So you think divorce has nothing to do with science ozien Oh, are am I seeing that that um having two parents raising a kid can't promote the outcome Of the child like improve outcomes for children. Okay. I think see the problem is you're Ozien, this is not a scientific claim.  Okay. Look, can you see your screen over here? Yeah, you put a thing this is contradict science in your own text and then show this is a ted talk Okay, here's what she's saying. She's she's she's talking about Nothing about science. Okay. Hold on a second. Let me find my reference here Uh, I got 90% of all homeless runaway kids. Oh, okay. This is about What the science over here, which I'm pointing at living in single family homes This is about income. This is about income not about single family. Oh, listen. This is I know the facts You're wrong. Okay. Can you please ozien? Can you allow me to speak here? 71% of high school dropouts account for 90% of all homeless and runaway kids And uh Let me let me get to my actual article here So divorce falls under social science right over here the force of facts So you wrote that and then you posted a link that talks about the effects of divorce Okay, look look the issue itself. It's not a social science. So we have the effects at the I don't want to get I don't want to it's not about the divorce. Well, can I speak you've been speaking for a while? It's not about the effects of divorce. The problem with the single parent household is the amount of income that's going in the household When you adjust for income the the outcomes of the children are the same as if it's two parents or a single parent We don't have the same problem as we do Um, but it's related to income. It does nothing to do with a single parent or two parent household If you're trying to promote single family I can pull up those papers too if you want to see them I'm not promoting single family homes. Don't forget. Okay. Thank you. But where's my mouth? Okay? We're way off We're way off course here.  I want to bring it back to where We need to be the issue tonight by giving women by giving women the right and they can they can go through the court system and get a divorce And and not just for adultery and death, which is what the new testament stipulated. That's a better answer That's my point. So let's move on to the next one. Okay, I'm against I'm against marriage in both cases So I appreciate it. You know, but this is not about what you think this is about what science thinks, okay science doesn't make a claim to science says having having the proper income and the proper care For the children provide the best outcome having in a religious document or a State document that says you're in a bonded relation Doesn't affect the outcome of the child. It's about income and having the parents here to raise the child So if you want to look at those studies, you can do that nothing about marriage Nobody is going to argue against the case that single family homes leads to more crime I am poverty. Yes, you they do you're wrong. Look here is it's about income. It's about income It's not about single family homes Okay, here here. Here's the article I'm showing from you father Father absent homes implicit Okay, I'll pull out the criminal justice and mental health professionals Here are all the problems with it, but it's irrelevant to the fact To the you got to talk to the woman. Why should she live in a relationship? She doesn't like okay That's just crazy what you're trying what you're trying to justify here So I don't know you're saying it's later. We can get your sentence later Yeah, but what needs to be You're actually saying it's bad for muslims to get divorced now. You're saying we should You're saying that muslims allowing divorce is bad because no ozium bad out for children Is that what you're arguing? Are you really arguing against yourself with all these papers? What I'm arguing is what I'm arguing is is that Sometimes relationships don't work out. I agree the woman and the husband should be free to get divorced and remarried That's what I'm arguing other than adultery and death And if you can agree with that then we can move on to point numbers So you you're arguing that it's so But your argument this entire time you just spent showing about divorces and the out the effects now come for children We go against your claims. You're actually argued your argument for islam being better about divorce You're actually arguing me presented says that christianity is better in the new testament Okay, so if you actually Yeah, because if you actually how is that because you're claiming that divorce the forced single family homes Produce worse outcome for children. You said in your argument. I'm not saying that you just did all that stuff You might have misunderstood about single family. So you see you already have another wife You're seeing you have another wife in the wings ready to go when you get a divorce Okay, let me explain to you what my position is Okay, and and i'm living proof of this What I am telling you is people should be allowed to get divorced and remarried And not be called a whore That's my point Good, we agree on that. All right, let's move on Why because testament now the new testament says no the new testament says only in the case of Of adultery and death and as many jojoba witnesses will point out if you Get divorced and remarried for other reasons than that then you are an adulterer And I'm saying no, I'm not an adulterer And uh, and so we can we agree on this. This is a better But what mom is saying is a better answer on divorce divorce is fine It's not a scientific claim because the science you showed goes against it No, actually science is perfectly fine with divorce and remarriage. Okay You just showed the science says the outcome for children were worse The average didn't say that. Okay, let's just showed like a ted talk talking about the The crime rates of single parent homes. Yes single family. No nobody's promoting single the bible This is what happens when you get divorced the bible doesn't promote single family homes we was talking about Okay. Yeah, this this right here. This ted talks is talking about Um, where is it the bible? This is really is talking about single family homes and the importance of a father In the home Okay, and that's where the new testament is saying the new testament is saying no There's no importance of the father once there's once the divorce happens Then that's it.  There'll be no father figure So what i'm showing where is it seen down in the new testament that the father can just abandon the child? Where's it? No, if there if the relationship doesn't work out and and you get separated divorced for other than adultery and death Then you will live in a single family home Where's it seen down the new testament? Sure, I can show that to you Let me get to the bible verse and where's and you you automatically are going to be married and take custody of the kids When you get a divorce is the bible verse really? Uh, necessary to the topic Frankly, yeah, because so how this is relevant is i'm showing you how islam offers better answers and thus it's correcting It's correcting the scientific problems of the bible Where is it say that the father is not supposed to be part of the Okay, Matthew chapter Matthew chapter five so she can get remarried Anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.  That's why Christians will literally call them whores and I've seen this happen I've seen it too. It's horrible. Yeah, just because someone gets divorced and remarried.  I don't see no, no, whether the father be part of the child's life. Sure. I think that's okay I'm not gonna argue against that but the issue about remarriage. That's what you said though It's condemned over here. Okay, so it's Islam is the the issue is about you know being allowed to be divorced and remarried That's where you don't have to get you don't have to be remarried to be part of the kids life So the father and mother well, you do accept being remarried should be a right and a good choice for people, right? But that's not the claim you made earlier. So the issue here is You made the claim about single family homes that there that there's four outcomes For single or single parent home homes, right? And that somehow the bible forbids The father being part of the child's life. It doesn't do that doesn't say that. No, no, that's that's for sure That's for sure. So that you overstated the claim about the new testament then, right? No, no, no That that does happen though. You see it creates the conditions For this type of single family homes to happen because a lot of times the father may decide to well I'm not going to follow this. I'm going to go and find somebody else and move out as I most Most of the single family home Most of the single parent homes Are people that were never married in the first place and they decided to give birth to the child It isn't all about the force after the fact most of four seeds a lot of them now There's cases where it's not the case But usually it's least under the courts in the united states both parents are financially responsible for raising that child In the united states, but they don't know that the father is the issue I'm just going to jump in real quick just to let you guys know that we have a little less than 10 minutes left Okay, wonderful. So let our viewers know that they have So eight times I'm one to get Sorry us What the letter viewers know they still have time to get some super chats in if they wish and to hit that like and subscribe button And then we'll uh get into the q&a in about nine minutes Okay, so let's move very quickly to epilepsy. My only point here is divorce I believe I believe Oz was attempting to to speak at that moment. So let's let him start this one Just last I just it's um atheisms 400. So atheisms went in on all four counts They have the better answer for each one of these claims because we actually believe in science But yeah, let's go to epilepsy. Yeah, let's talk about the Egyptians Yeah, I did I did make a little amendment here to my number six I put divorce slash remarriage if you can see my screen because that's I think maybe I just put out their divorce But it should be divorce remarriage because that's what I believe is a better answer Yeah, so now my question to you I presented to you two scientific studies Uh, you know before this of course, which clearly showed That the new testament causes Uh, epileptics to be stigmatized as demon possessed. Do you have any problems with that? Absolutely, I also have a problem with the prevalent belief within Islam that Jins are part of That jins possess people too. Okay, that's irrelevant to what we are talking about. Okay, right here Okay, so why do you reject science? Let me why do you reject? I don't reject science The science is correct. What's wrong is Islam jinn possession from an Islam perspective. That is irrelevant Oh, but so you believe that jinn possession Could cause epileptic type of episodes. Do you or do you not? No, it doesn't listen what I'm why do Why do something like 30 percent of Saudis believe the jinn could cause jinn possession are the cause of epileptic episodes Let me let me first comes from the Quran right in the Hadith Oh, oh, yeah, I felt like you might have contradicted yourself by accident here I have presented to you two scientific studies which Accused and put the finger on the new testament for causing Epileptics to be that that the new testament is the reason behind the stigmatization of of epileptics Because they listed the symptoms And so you said I reject. I don't know if you said I reject those studies Or if you said now I'm you're saying I do accept the science So I don't know the science if first of all they weren't scientific papers. They were explaining scientific papers They're from one with some of your You're confusing published articles with scientific journals, but this is obvious. We don't need the So it's not science then once again Can you see my screen? So we agree that we agree that that the Quran and the new testament get it wrong about epilepsy No, we agree that you don't know the difference between what the Quran and hadith teachers and what some ignorant People in Saudi Arabia are doing the if if Mohammed Said that people who suffer from epilepsy are demon pedestrian. That's it. It's over as a scientific contradiction But Mohammed gave the right answer. He avoids the scientific contradiction in that In that he won the one that won the child with a who had epilepsy or had some seizures came to him He didn't do what the new testament did which is accused him of being demon-possessed which caused all the problems Which the scientists are talking about now He he said I will pray for you and doesn't accuse them of being demon-possessed now as for these ignorant Arabs Which you have shown in Saudi Arabia Al-Bakara To 275 go ahead. They quote that Those who eat Riba Usri will not stand on the day of restoration except like the standing of a person Beated by shaitan leading him to insanity. So you believe jinn possession can cause insanity That is irrelevant to the issue of epilepsy. Yes, absolutely. It's jinn possession of disease Well, what what hadith are you quoting? Which one are you showing so we could read it together? This is Al-Bakara 275 share your desktop just because I I can't I can't see anything what you're what you got there You can't share if you're sharing I'm sure I'm sorry The but the issue here is epilepsy. You're taking us to somewhere else And so okay once again, we see this related to it's related to epilepsy. How are this how is this related? Let's let's see where this is the justifications once again another And there's also this story of the woman you're talking about Okay, show me. What are you quoting because I I have no idea Al-Bakara to 275 And then we also have these yeah satan leading him to insanity. Okay, wonderful I mean, I could give you an example of that like for example satan leading you to take Merde smoke marijuana, right satan leading you to do opioids. Yeah, where's the problem there? They meant actual insanity where it makes you irrational. Okay. Look what you're quoting there That's perfectly fine from a scientific point of view. Holy cow. Here. It's a scientific here.  I think they Is something like an evil spirit. I would see that the elders don't matter where they are Okay, okay about epilepsy. It's about epilepsy. Here it is Uh, don't quote me ignorant people. Okay and say this is what Islam teaches.  This all goes back to the fundamental islamic argument What makes islam what it where is a scientific miracle the scientific miracle is in the facts When we put aside all the wacky-quacky interpretations and you just look at the facts ozian That's where the scientific miracle is now.   A lot of them are educated. That's not true Like 25 percent of our highly educated people believe that is yeah, they are still ignorant and they're still foolish And that is because this is the influence of the of christianity and judaism upon muslims So this is what we call an israeli yacht Whereas the judaeo christian influence upon them But it goes back to once again on epilepsy muhammad gave the scientifically better answer No, it wasn't a scientific answer Okay, then finally when we get to meat consumption because we only have a few more minutes here Jesus allows meat to eat meat of whatever, you know, there's no removes all restrictions on meat consumption That's bad because monkeys and bats the cdc says you should not eat them because they are the carriers of zoonotic diseases like ebola And other diseases like that muhammad comes and re institutes the side the the restrictions on any animals with fangs So that would exclude what the cdc was talking about with the bushmeat, which is specifically focused on monkeys and bats So once again muhammad gives a better answer on meat consumption And that's six zero profit muhammad. He wins Every round now to your point ozian about the other unrelated issues. Sure. Well, no, let's go to zoonotic diseases So the crown ignores the majority of zoonotic diseases your cherry picking a specific type By pointing to fanged beasts right with like bats and stuff like that because it specifically says that but we ignores rabies Ignores all these other diseases at least the united states, which are a huge deal In the united states So these can all be passed on and i want to stop sharing that screen And you're you're also ignoring really quick their causes So the causes for these zoonotic diseases are not just from eating it. It could be spread through um touching it could be spread through contact with the fetal matter It could be tech um contacted through like mosquitoes mosquitoes bite the monkey go bite the human that could be Where hiv comes from that could be where these other diseases come from you don't know if it's specifically from eating the meat Now they will see in these journals that it could be because eating bush meat But you know specifically see it is because you don't know Absolutely what the vector for these um like hiv and people were originally So they they know it could be through one of those five vectors and one of them is Eating meat. So you are the you are true if you don't eat something with a bola You're probably not going to get a bullet But if you do eat the meat and the meat is processed safely, you're not going to get a bullet either All right, yeah, so let me quickly answer that by me Okay, i'll either respond and then we're going to get into some q&a Okay, thanks What the what the cdc center for disease control says do not eat do not handle bush meat Focusing primarily on monkeys and bats. Let me just share my article over here Now as for all these other animals, he's one of the problem What are your mistake which you are making ozian? This was supposed to be a comparison between Muhammad's answer and the new testament's answer But what you did you removed? Jesus out of the picture because the answer is not very good at all and you put science So now this is science versus Muhammad Sure, we could talk about that and we will but that Outside of the challenge which I have presented to you. I'm saying no let's first talk about Muhammad in jesus Let's see who's or the jesus of the new testament, of course We believe in jesus the jesus of the new testament. Let's look to see who's giving the better answer So once again, I think it's undeniable That by not eating animals with fangs that knocks out a lot of the bush meat and that is a much Better answer than what we find in the bible now to your point Well, does it knock out all of the diseases all of this stuff? So now we're making that comparison between Muhammad and and science Well, the answer here is islam is not obligated to give you the the cure for diabetes the cure for cancer So therefore whatever you find good you should say thank you Thank you lord for this great blessing and this is how islam Alleviates the misery and suffering caused by the teachings of the new testament So I have not heard at all Or I don't think anybody can argue that what we find in the new testament is better I believe you've responded to his question and I feel like you're about to roll into a closing statement Now if you want a couple minutes for a closing statement, I'll also allow ozzie and a chance to have A couple minutes to close as well. Let's just do one minute closing Do you agree with that oz? Yeah, that's fine. All right. Uh, go ahead and dear. I'll give you 90 seconds. I'm feeling generous. Well, thank you so much. So, um, The issue is clear islam gave a scientifically superior much better answer than what we find in the new testament the problem was ozzie and what his Whole presentation tonight was to just reinterpret stone make it allegorical metaphorical To make the error go away. So it looks like there's really no error being corrected. Everything's fine there There's no problem there All religions hold a scam the scientific miracle of islam one of the scientific miracles is we don't have to play A metaphorical allegorical interpretation game to smooth over the error Which is explicitly in that text Never did you hear tonight from ozian that the new testament gave a better answer? Never did you hear from him That's that you know that actually that The islamic answer was contradicting science or anything like that. But that this is what the challenge was he he was not He was 90 percent in some la la land talking about Extranuous issues and a lot of it. He just didn't understand the science behind that explain and hand hold him through the science No, here's how alcohol works. Here's how this works. Okay, how epilepsy works, you know The scientific i'll say this once i'll say it again The scientific miracle of islam is by taking away all of the la la quacky interpretations And just look at what we know to be factually true Not everybody can do that. All right. That's a god-given talent. Okay Go ahead ozian take 90 seconds and we'll get into our q&a Okay, muster seed hindsight bias his category area was in scientific claim within the bible So you got that wrong in the beginning atheist one Because the atheists are the one that figured out which one's small seed anyways alcohol He conceded that sometimes they're okay to consume alcohol if it's for medical reasons So they both get it wrong washing hands. It's a ritual. You have to go to the deeds. It's not even in the crown So it wouldn't be a scientific miracle from the crown even if you consent Even if you adhere to some type of scientific miracle, which is an oxymoron in the first place um divorce his own evidence contradicts him when it comes to divorce his own evidence that he presented Which i disagree with the evidence I think it has more to do with income than it does to do with a single family household But in that case, it's still contradicted his own claim Um epilepsy epilepsy the egyptians got it wrong in 1700 bc They knew it was a physical cause it wasn't these religions that did it and as he agreed that a lot of muslims do actually believe That epilepsy is caused by jinn possession when it comes to meat consumption They still got it wrong in the crown and the new testament because it's not about the meat It's about tainted meat and nowhere in either decks does it talk about how these type of diseases get vectored There's nothing wrong with eating pork There's nothing wrong with eating bush meat as long as the meat is safe to consume and its process That's what we create livestock The better argument would be probably to be a vegan if you wanted to avoid these type of vectors through consumption of meat And in that case they both got it wrong because zoonotic diseases can be vectored through consuming of any meat Not just fainting and with that I say atheism is six Oh, oh Muhammad and the new testament got it wrong. Okay All right. Thank you so much gentlemen uh Yeah, so a lot of people in the chat real quick I'm just going to do a little housekeeping here interested and potentially some other debate topics You guys have inspired the audience to perhaps get on stage and try their chances So if you guys at all think you have a topic in mind It would be interesting to see or that you could argue a particular topic. Just email modern day debate Um, I believe the email is in the description It's also on the channel's description as well And if I can get a mod even to just link That email, I know james is very interested In new topics and new debaters So we're on the lookout for you guys if you're interested and yes, you do need a camera Um, that's probably both the only rule we got Um, all right, let's get into some q and a we've got some super chats here um Ozean and nadir so First super chat from bitter truth two dollars nadir. Why are you running away from me to debate? Oh my god, nobody's running away from the the issue the people who are running away uh, which is you know It is actually the people who have the big youtube channels. They are not going to want to Uh, you know debate garon and science because it's going to damage their careers They don't have good answers like ozean here tonight You know most of his ending presentation here was like the first time I like listening to these arguments You know, we should have raised those things in this debate.   Uh, mohammed avoid that. I'm sorry. That's a better answer I'm going to respond to the insults by the way. Um Yeah, so first of all the question was they wanted to know or rather they were accusing you of running away from them No, no, it sounds to me like bitter truth would like to debate you Um, he's not but James has already responded to him. You got to turn on your camera bitter truth doesn't want to do that okay, um, and then when you said Foolish were you calling ozean foolish or just someone in general who didn't believe the ground someone in general I mean in general. No, he was talking specifically about me You called me out specifically when you said that so now you're just being deceitful I never insulted you during this entire debate. I've been polite to you. I've been polite towards Islam boys I'm not respectful to Islam this entire debate that I ever see Islam was false this entire debate in a deer Can you see can you not see the the foolishness of when you avoid an explicitly wrong statement? And that's a good job. That is something good and you cannot see the value in that that is foolish behavior ozean So you don't want to answer my question I'm not going to ask you're just going to point out the people that voted on this survey. There's 408 volts in the chat 91% said that the Quran is not scientific 91% So 91% of the audience watching right now is foolish according to you And I presented these claims of my opening argument if you were listening I talked about how you were confusing pragmatic knowledge versus epistemic luck You're trying to use luck. Luck is no pathway to truth. Okay, let's talk about that way through scientific truth Okay, the base over this is Q&A Yeah, and insult me. Yeah, that's just a void. Just calling anyone foolish if we can just do that Thank you Um Right next was yo hooligan gifted 20 modern day debate memberships. That's me That's to you that was from my pocket for you guys because I wanted to and if you don't like it Well too bad. You're a member now enjoy Um right after that We have bitter truth again for five dollars Nadir Ebola spreaded by bats to wild animals including Halal deer halal wild beast monkeys But the Quran says deer cow wild beasts are okay to eat Yeah, so this is all off Topic it's not addressing the argument. Let's just go along with what you're saying Look does islam knock out every single animal that could cause a zoonotic disease? No But the question which i'm raising tonight In spite of what you see as alleged flaws and i'll address you on that In spite of that, is it better than what you got from the new testament? Yes, because the new testament removes all restrictions on meat consumption. That's where the correction is It's a better answer. Now. Let me answer you scientifically from if you in fact, it's probably better Can you guys see my screen? Um If you look at what islam is presenting it knocks out a huge amount A large amount of zoonotic diseases. So if you can look at my screen over here This is how the disease is spread once you take monkeys deer Out of deer. Oh, can I please speak once you take monkeys and bats out of this equation Then the deer will be safe as you can see over here because that's what cdc is focusing on Monkeys and bats that you can eat deer meat. We can eat deer meat here in america That's perfectly fine. It's showing the deer But this is not relevant to what i am presenting. Yes, okay I am perfectly fine. Ozean if you want to respond to what nadir is saying. Um, let's Try and let him finish. However, the question is specifically to the deer So I would like him to have the last word on the question Um, nadir, are you finished making your point? Yeah, let ozian go respond. Yeah, go ahead ozian All right, that's this point It shows the deer it can get factored and that can transmit to humans right there in the picture right there Yes, but ozian you see there's two things you problem is you're not in this debate The issue here what i'm presenting in spite. Let's just agree with what you're saying here that there are some flaws in the answer Okay, but is it better than what the new testament is giving? Yes, it's a hundred times better That's what my argument is but now let me return back to what you're saying The issue here is cdc is okay with you eating deer We all eat deer meat here in america the question here once you take monkeys and bats out of this cycle That's gonna definitely Uh, you know, uh change the dynamics of of how ebola is spread So to eat deer meat cdc didn't say you can't eat it But it's showing you the cycle of what happens the focus if you understand the science what you don't you it's the monkeys and bats That's why if you look at this article they're focusing on those animals Okay, thank you Um, don't get comfortable there new deer because guess who's back with another five dollars bitter truth Says washing hands Washing hand won't wash out the virus the deer unless you are using soap Even six days are human days in sahi al muslim hadith What are you talking about forgive me if I mispronounced anything. Yeah, so so the so the the question here is you know Uh, how many wacky quacky interpretations are are are we finding here? They're I counted two Which all goes back to see that the issue here when people raise these objections And most of what osi and even presented is all based on interpretation Personal interpretation The first wacky quacky interpretation is god is of course he does this is when the earth and the universe was created This was some miraculous event taking place. So that's outside of science We don't really apply science to the miracles of god So if god said he wanted to create the whole universe in one second That's perfectly fine from a science from a from a scientific perspective. We don't care But let us it is also a misrepresentation of the Quran because we could go and if you could look at my my screen over here It says inside chapter 22 verse 47 chapter 32 verse 5 that Allah created A day equaling a thousand years and inside some verses that says 50 000 years. So it's arbitrary That's why one day cannot be pinned to a 24-hour period the hadith what you're talking about It doesn't pin it to a 24-hour period. You have misrepresented the Quran You have misrepresented the hadith and you have misrepresented science. That's a triple Here wacky quacky interpretation spin that you've put on the Quran the hadith and science Do you have a response to that os? Well, especially when he directed the claims towards me. Yes, it was so 50 000 years Even if you grant that per day that would be 300 000 years, which doesn't match the science. It would still be false So I understand that you could see a day unto god is unto like a period of time to man and a Day to man is like under a period of time to god whatever that that it's in the old testament too And it talks about a thousand years because those people had time a thousand years Which is like a big great huge number, but if you just read it Literally and not as a parable then you can conclude that it's six days and a lot of people do believe it's six days so last word Yeah, so that as you can see he tried to Uh, he's still holding on to the wacky quacky interpretation Uh in that we don't care because god this is the way the universe was created was By a miracle and so miracles of course god could create the universe in one second That doesn't contradict science. Why because this is a miraculous event. So he was Refuted right there, but you're not getting it if god created a day equal a thousand human years Then he created one for 50 000 years. Don't you think he could create more days, which is Equal to oh, I don't know a billion years I don't so the point here all of this is just wacky quacky interpretations wacky quacky analysis of our text But you see what I keep telling people having that ability to decipher between facts versus interpretation It's a god-given ability not everybody has it and the people who who object to islam They're not objecting based on fact Okay, so I can't know the chron is true because I can't interpret it. Okay. That's a good So I should never be I should never be a muslim because it's impossible for me interpret the chron Okay, got you. It's because you are falsely interpreting it You said I need to be god-given some god-given has to give me the ability to interpret the chron So I must not be able to be a muslim because oh god hasn't given me the ability to do it That's true according to your own argument. So I should not be a muslim That's a good story to do Let me answer that let me answer that that's a fair point where it comes to an issue of predestination I believe I'm the theory which I follow. I'm not saying this is what islam teaches But the theory which I follow those people who don't have that ability to decipher between interpretations In fact, it's a defect which they have in their brain. They were born that way So there is to a certain extent a legitimacy that okay. Well, I was born with this defect Yeah, sure, but I believe you can overcome that if you will By certain training people can walk you and handhold you through this And teach you how to decipher between what is fact versus what some interpretation spin So there is a little bit of predestination involved here now. They want to say I have a mental defect how How are you going to convince me to want to be walked through it if I believe the claim is false So maybe this is the first time you gotta go back and look at this debate and see how much of what I was presented Is based upon interpretation How much of what I like for example when you spun the mustard seed text to make the air go away Metaphorical allegorical. Why did your brain do that? You see my brain doesn't work that way My brain looked exactly at what the text says explicitly Of course within the context and you got to ask yourself. Well, why didn't a deer's brain work differently like that? That doesn't just my own personal belief I believe people do have a defect in their brain which prevents them from seeing truth Motivated reasoning you're motivated to interpret it the way that conforms to your own worldview. That's what you do Like a lot of people do You know what in every in this debate and in every debate nobody has ever came and And raised the argument a deer. You're just putting your own interpretation on it. Now deer You're just saying this is allegorical. That's your own interpretations. No one has ever done that now I want you to listen and I wanted you to now. Tell me What interpretation did I give in this debate? Go ahead You try to take a strict literal interpretation of the new testament strict literal interpret No, I'm not interpreting. I'm letting the text read for itself. Okay. Well, that's what interpretation means Okay, now you have to interpret language. No, no, you have to interpret language. You're just wrong Okay, Ozean, how did I misrepresent the text? What interpretation did I give in this entire debate? Strict literal is a typing of interpretation if you read something strictly A mustard seed is the smallest seed. That would be a strict literal interpretation.  So there's two different types You take a metaphorical interpretation or a strict literal interpretation Well, I think that's where the defect comes and you see the problem is Ozean you're all I'm doing is I'm picking up The bible letting the text read for itself and I'm not putting my spin on it I'm now maybe the issues of the king james bible. Maybe it's an IV But I am just letting the text read for itself explicitly Now That is not an interpretation spin That is not any interpretation game if you just let the text read for itself And that's where I think you have a have you you have a defect You know and you won't allow the text to do that Who's up who who decides how to interpret the Quran be? I'm not interpreting the Quran. Can I interpret wait? Okay Is it up to me to interpret the Quran? Can I interpret it the way I want to like strictly literally it says six days I can do that and I can see that's false according to science I'm asking this question leading you somewhere. No scientist is perfectly fine with that because it's the miracle story So you're misunderstanding that science doesn't deal with miracles. That's another false claim you make about science Science doesn't deal in domain of miracles. You're lying about science when you see that too Miracles are not the domain of science. We have no evidence of any miracles ever happening ever For the first point no good evidence of any miracles ever happening ever now Who decides how we interpret the Quran me as an atheist? I decide Well, we would look can I decide how to interpret the Quran? Yes or no Well, if you do it properly, but listen, let me let me properly then it's not my decision Allow me to decide. Can you just say yes or no osean? Are you gonna allow me to know where it's leading to? Go ahead. Okay When oh, okay, let me look the issues which I have shown in the Quran Like for example, the must the mustard seed being the smallest seed That text is not found in the Quran. So this is not an issue of interpretation Okay, there is no interpretation problem here when I told you that alcohol forbids the Alcohol is forbidden in the Quran. That is not a nadir interpretation. That is what science and academia state So I am showing you academic papers stating what the Quran teaches So there is no interpretation problem here when the text of the hadith says do not eat animals with fangs There's no Interpretation problem here. There's just letting the text read for itself So the whole issue of who should interpret the Quran and Islam? It is a non sequitur. It is not an issue in tonight's debate We're just letting the text read for itself And we are accepting the apparent meaning which is clear to you and clear to me So why are we talking about what how Islam is to be interpreted? All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna move on to the next question Oz. I'm sure it'll come up again But I really want Nadir to have the final word since the question was addressed to him However, this next question does not have an official address. However, I can probably Infer who they're talking to I'm taking back Eden flat earth $2 Hi Did the Quran get flat earth? Correct carpet So this is off topic once again, it has nothing to do with what we have talked about here And I would ask super chats so they have access to you as a debater and your position is from the point of the Well, I would I would have appreciated it if the super chatter would have listened to tonight's debate Talk about the arguments which we have been debating for over an hour and a half now The Quran does not state anything about if that the or that the shape of the earth is flat This is yet another wacky Quacky interpretation Which they're imposing upon the text and in fact in we can't even say that it's a wacky quacky interpretation It's just deception. So let me share my desktop if I may Um Nadir it was I don't believe that the question was asked with in that way They were asking you if the Quran got flat earth. Correct There is no flat earth in the Quran. That is just nonsense and that already go question answer Okay, okay Yeah, I don't believe they were inferring or suggesting that it said it in the Quran It looks like they were just straight up asking. Yeah, there is a minority of Muslims that do interpret it as being flat But they are very small However, this next question is for Nadir I'll give you one guess From bitter truth five dollars Nadir the Quran didn't say alcohol is harmful in terms of its side effect But due to the behavior of sahabas cutting camels Sahih Bukhari says so wrong Again, forgive me if I really got those words wrong I don't understand his argument. What are you saying the Quran didn't say alcohol is harmful in terms of its side effects But due to its behaviors of Dahabas Oh, okay, cutting camels Well, what we find in Islam is word for word agreement with modern science Modern science says that the the harm of alcohol outweighs any benefits Islam the Quran says inside chapter 2 verse 19 word for word agreement with modern science It says explicitly that that the harm outweighs any benefits now There is no interpretation problem here as Ozean was was was mentioning at all This is just what the text explicitly says see that but the argument which I think everybody is kind of running away from here Is is just a better answer than what the new testament gave Jesus turned water to wine Since then wine has been flowing like water in christianity That because islam's answer actually saved millions of children from brain damage And the and and has been recognized from the scientific community for doing such But the christian answer has no such has no such uh, there is no benefit you can kind of say So the issue here is that once again islam is giving a much better answer Scientists are perfectly fine with a person not drinking any alcohol unless for medical benefits But but of course there's always substitutes that as well So that's where the argument is that islam is a better answer, which ozean really didn't argue against I argued neither were an answer but um you think about me again Um interpretation you can't read if you read without interpretation it means you read without comprehension So you're either comprehending what you're reading and interpreting the words you're reading or You have no comprehension. So it's just to deny that you interpret either strictly Or in parables there's many different ways of in literary interpretation besides the one you're seeing is Not a form of interpretation or let me look it up. What types of Go ahead with the superstars. So so okay. Look ozean the problem here is okay Yeah, sure scriptures canon should be interpreted. That's fine But what you also have to understand and appreciate Is interpretation is misused as well to cover up scientific errors to cover a blatant scientific problems like for example Now aran raul was an atheist apologist He has also raised the same objections against the bible About the about the washing hands. So it's not just me a lot of the scientific problems Which i'm raising here has been raised by other atheists as well So the issue here is what christians do and that's why they don't participate in this debates Is they just try to smooth it over with with with with with with personal interpretation and make the problem go away So yeah, scriptures can be interpreted correctly and should be but it can also be misused That's what i'm pointing out what i'm pointing out the problem, but i will return back to you Where is how did i use interpretation? Uh to to misrepresent in tonight's debate or to cover up problems. I didn't I stick with facts And I hope that you can appreciate and see that Wonderful question. I appreciate the question So the reason why i was trying to get you to answer the question about who should interpret the cron Is because I wanted to admit that it should be the people that believe in those different versions of the theology even with the cron There's multiple interpretations between different Theologies with the the cron this idea of scientific miracles actually is more of a modern 20th century movement too is not really a historical Way that the cron was approached. So the same thing with the new testament I think the people that interpret the new testament should be the people that believe in that theology when an atheist goes in And says no no no this must be how it must be interpreted. It's sort of like um, oh, what's the problem with that? You're trying to do an external critique of internal claim Right, so if you can't prove their claim is false if they're only seeing their claim Is not a strict interpretation, but it's more of a parable or something like that So I take the claim for the people for what they see it is and I don't take strict literal interpretations That's why I always ask in these big debates Can you give me a decodering because I need a decodering for the cron? And the new testament and the Torah You don't need one for this debate. Look what's your problem? Where what you're you're ignoring the facts the scientific study specifically stated that there is something Intrinsic about the natures of Islam and Christianity which is causing the study to read the way it is There is something intrinsic about the what the bible says about alcohol that is causing this fetal alcohol syndrome So the problem is your your brain is now focusing on well, let me interpret things this way Let me interpret things that way, but you're ignoring the facts The fact is what you should be concerned about is what is it about the bible that's causing that We don't really need to know what it is that what my argument here is Is there is something intrinsic about the teachings of Islam which saves children from fetal alcohol syndrome Therefore islamic teaching is on alcohol the answer given on alcohol is just a better answer Than what we find in the bible. So the fact that islam keeps Producing better answers. I think is undeniable based on the facts not the interpretations Okay, next question Megan Marie 499 Nadir. Do you think that the moon being split in half in the Quran was scientific? Well, that's right. Actually, it's technically it's not in the Quran It is uh, it is found in the hadith, but this is once again, it's off topic. I would ask for you to please Talk about the debate which we just had but let me answer This is perfectly fine from scientific point of view about the moon being split in half because this was a miracle Done by by God and therefore science is okay. They don't have any objections against miracles Happening they don't confirm or deny miracles. That's their official position. Now, of course if the Quran said that the sun's was split I'm sorry. The moon was split Naturally, okay, then this would be considered to be a scientific error, but it doesn't do that It says this is one of the many miracles of Almighty God therefore from a scientifically scientific point of view No problem It's an empirical claim to us investigative you can investigate it with science So unless it also says he healed it perfectly back up I guess and it would be a miracle of breaking and healing Do you have a response to that Nadir? Yeah, I guess you could try uh, you know Investigating and people do they investigate mosa splitting the seas they investigate jesus walking on water But at the end of the day These are miracles even if you find nothing that doesn't prove these stories to be wrong because these are supernatural claims these are Claims of the divine and science really doesn't argue like or for it or against it So it's perfectly fine to to have these type of beliefs and stories on miracles I I want to be very clear really quick. I want to respond to this fine I just like I'm going to remind you that the question director will get the last word So no, I think this is I think this is important to the discussion too Like I agree like within an internal critique of the Quran and the deeds and stuff It makes sense that the moon could be split and re put back together because that's the claim you believe About all of the he has a bower inability to do that But if I do an external critique like my I'm a naturalist So I believe that any supernatural claim is false. I believe all miracles are false And I I'm justified in that belief. I have my own worldview that I can I can justify and I can argue for I'd be more interested in that debate than the one trying to defend the bible I'm not trying to defend the bible I'm just trying to defend rationality, which is what I was trying to appeal to is a wisdom of Muslims in the beginning, but I just want to point it out You are correct. The the moon could be split into and reformed. It's not a scientific claim It could be true internally consistent with your worldview But it's not true it from my worldview. It never happened. It's false You can have the last word to do if you like it Uh, yeah, no, I think we we agree on this but I would just reiterate You know when you debate a lot of religious people like let's say there was a christian jew or hindu here Uh, you would find a lot of interpretative games You know my you know one of the things I want ozian to to recognize is my entire presentation Is based upon verifiable testable facts And I just want you to now it could have asked you a couple of times. What type of interpretation game have I played? I think ozians having audio issues now. Okay Um, no, it's back on the what happened. I can hear you again So at least you can acknowledge ozian that my presentation all my refutations is based upon verifiable Testable facts. I play no interpretation game because that's where the scientific miracle is If you put aside all the interpretations just look at what we know to be factually true The koran will be a scientific miracle I the best argument for the koran uh and against christianity for me is the trinity but because I think it's like contradictory but not all christians believe in the trinity either so like I don't find any of these arguments convincing for the koran being more accurate than um christianity because of the pre subs built into all these claims in the first place, but that's a different argument Well, it's because you you have a problem of deciphering and and taking apart facts versus interpretation when a fact is presented to you You begin this interpretation spin in your head and that's why you're not seeing the scientific miracle scientific miracle comes from From recognizing and isolating the facts and seeing them for what they are I don't think I have the interpretation policy problem I think i'm interpreting as the christian scholars interpret the parables you say Aren't being interpreted correctly. So i'm doing their scholar like what those scholars say it means not what my own First interpretation. So how do you know they're not covering up problems? Well, I think it's all false So they are covering our problems and you're just following their bogus apologetics, right? No, I'm I'm I'm using their claim So if you argue if you want my claim was in the first place is that none of this is scientific Because it doesn't explain Why it doesn't give the mechanism. It doesn't explain why Alcohol causes but does it need to if you're continuously correcting the science That's not possible for you to correct six errors in the bible See just letting just the fact that you know that these are six problems here That in itself is a miracle. And I think this is what you're not seeing here So it would have been more of a miracle if um a la had told mohawk or mohammed to jeep roll jeep roll. I always pronounce. Gabriel. Yeah Gabriel it easier for me, but uh, um Why uh zoonotic disease vectors like what the mechanism is and how we can prevent it and how we can Take care of livestock and stuff like that like a la should have the ability like All knowing be able to explain this stuff if he really cared about the health and welfare of the bevel He would explain this is why you clean your hands and given a reason to the whole world Not the scientific reason the testable verifiable reason to me That would be the miracle because those are the claims that were completely unknown like the scientific method entirely It was the scientific method so we can explore the knowledge on our own so to me those have been much much more miraculous and some type of Coincidental claim that happens to be true from the Quran So to answer that he actually did do so with the issue of alcohol He said alcohol is forbidden. Why because the harm of it outweighs all the benefits That's word for word agreement with modern science. So when a la does do that You don't recognize it. So he actually did meet you on that challenge But the question here is yeah, I mean, of course, he could always provide Explanations to make the miracles even more bigger But what if Allah says, you know what I've given you enough to show you that this is a sign Not either you accept it or you don't so to maybe in the eyes of Allah He's given you enough and of course he could give you more but he has chosen not to see Ozi and at least you can agree tonight from a scientific perspective you put aside all those interpretations Islam on those six issues give better answers now, whether you want to believe that's america or not That's a different issue Yeah, but I hope you can at least see that islam is providing better answers on the six issues I provided Well, that's a that's the problem here with the it's not Providing the explanation. So it's not scientific. It might be the case. It might be the case That it was good enough for Allah He doesn't have to provide the explanation that the he's already provided Enough evidence to the people that he exists and that his word is true, right? But science isn't about the claim science isn't about this provides worse outcomes than this science It's about the explanation to show you the causes to Show you how this here ties to this and what comes the medical stuff like it's all about probabilities and percentages There's no clear causal links with for all type of medical claims or psychological claims like there is in the Hard sciences, so it's a little bit wishy-washy when it comes to some of these claims But the smallest seed man Maybe we'll make a smaller seed in a lab in two months and it won't be the the seed we think it is now But I think that's the problem we get like when you claim it's a scientific claim and not some book of spiritual guidance You run into a problem of Creating anachronisms and like post-off rational rationalization. You're sort of motivated Thinking I think it should be more of a spiritual and ethical framework for Muslims to use I'd like to move on to the next question if I can but I do want to adhere to my rule of the question Was from the deer so the deer if you could very quickly just Close this question that would be great. Yeah, see Ozean whether if something is better or not than something else doesn't require an explanation like for example Wash your hands before you eat, please That is a better explanation than someone arguing about it. Okay. This is just a better Now whether you really know the science or not is irrelevant to the fact that you gave the better answer You gave the right answer. Yes.  Okay, especially if you're wiping your hands or something You know, God knows what so you see Ozean the problem is you don't the problem is you don't want to concede to the obvious That is an obvious Answer it is better than what we're finding in that book because you feel like okay If I just concede to Nadir, these are better explanations. Nadir is going to quote win the debate I don't there's a case. Okay, and I think what's what's happening here Is you are trying to of you're trying to avoid the elephant in the room. Okay not mentioning bad stuff like You know the symptoms of apple of the seizures is actually demon possession. You don't mention that you just look I'm gonna pray for you. That's a better explanation. Thank God. That's why Mohammed's name is not in those journals by the scientists Accusing the New Testament of causing stigmatization of epileptics All right next question from Dan Shire 1999 Nadir you proved the Bible wrong about the mustard seed congrats This is about the Quran. What does the Quran say is the smallest seed or what does it say specifically To disprove the biblical claim Yeah, and you know one of the problems I was going through this very fast. I didn't actually get to you the actual Quranic verse. So, uh, let me do that right now. So The one of the points that I raise is if Mohammed is not a true prophet Then he has to be copying from the Bible But but the fact so here's chapter 21 verse 47. Can you guys see my screen? Let me let me share it real quick here chapter 21 verse 47 It says We will set up the scales of justice on the day of resurrection So that no soul will suffer the least and even if it be the weight of a mustard seed We'll bring it up sufficient or we the reckoner So the point which I was raising here is a whole issue about the mustard seed being the smallest seed is Nowhere mentioned in the actual text now Now I appreciate the the the questioner because he wasn't persuaded with the interpretation Game to make the problem go away. Oh, this is allegorical metaphorical That was the person who was able to read the text see the explicit Contradiction and say this book is wrong That's where I feel osean is is struggling with some people have that a gift some people do not I'm now notice. I'm not playing any interpretation here. I'm just saying there's nothing mentioned about a about a smallest seed of the mustard seed in this text here. So This is clearly a better usage of the mustard seed than what we find in the new testament All right. Thank you Yeah, just again, like you're attacking my reading comprehension ability I don't know why you do this as part of the debate, but that's okay Um, you might have had more time on spending doing your opening argument If you didn't spend like three minutes attacking other atheists that don't want to debate you anymore on the topic So maybe if you spent more time on the argument you would have got it into all this stuff And you spend a lot of time Poising in the well in your opening argument I don't think that's very good as interlocutor. It may be why people are avoiding you just some advice from going forward I don't have a problem with like Um, the claims within islam where like you shouldn't drink alcohol. I think that's good I I think people should avoid alcohol unless there's some type of medical reason for it The only problem I have is when you call it a scientific miracle The Just going back to what my observation of you olsin where I feel like you are Having the mistake is you see you weren't able to read the text the bible text for itself and see what it explicitly says I think what happened is you got misled by christian apologists. No, what was my claim? What was my claim? It was allegorical metaphorical What was my explain away part of my claim part of my claim that you try to but what my point you see what What you what should have happened olsin? You should have been able to see the deception of christian apologetics that they're just trying to cover up What is explicitly wrong in their text and you weren't able to do that? So you came in tonight with this entire interpretation spew and i'm and yeah See the thing is that's not going to work with with people with critical minds like that questioner who asked who asked this question He didn't buy it. He's like no. I see what the bible is literally saying here I'm not going to let you call all my christian friends deceivers and liars because they don't interpret that Literally, they're they're called up to see fool. You called up to see fool The deer they are now hold on a second the argument which they tried to plaster over to cover up the mistake In the bible is something which is very common in all religions hindu's jewish All people I see they they engage in this I think it's an immediate knee-jerk reaction But we need to be able to be discerning enough to to start picking apart What is the interpretation spread being put on this text here and what does the text really explicitly say? Well, then it's not to see if you have an issue with no It's not to see fool if they mean it sincerely like if they would sincerely believe that's the case Then it's not being deceitful. They're not lying about their own interpretation if they believe their interpretation is true Just to be clear now a little bit of humility maybe when it comes to how people interpret their own religious beliefs I said the mustard seed was not the smallest seed Yeah, well I was correct I was correct when I said that right mustard seed is not the smallest seed My argument was that it was not a scientific Plain and I explained why it wasn't a scientific claim Now what my argument though is that the usage of the mustard seed how Muhammad used it is much better Than the problematic way what we find in the bible. That's all i'm arguing all right next question John Michael b 5 canadian In the Quran the fetus is created by bones first then flesh slash muscle after Not scientific at all Islam is false Kind of off topic. So I think what's happening Is they really couldn't find You know error in my logic and my presentation tonight. So they're trying to score points outside now We're going to talk about embryology And going back to the question is it bones first flesh? I'm sorry. I didn't really understand what he said was the was was the problem there You said that the Quran said that the fetus is created by bones first then flesh muscle Bones first and then flesh and then muscle Yeah, does the Quran say that? Well, let's get to the verse which I think you might be or 2314 or is that the one On the then fashioned we the drop of semen a clot of congealed blood So fetuses are not developed from semen developed from an egg First of all, so that's the first part. That's wrong. Well, I think I think I think hold on a second Let me If you can see on screen 14 Yeah, can you see the screen right which I have on So the first part's wrong in the beginning like the first sentence is wrong. Well, wait a second. I'm sorry. I'm confused What what's wrong now? Then we made this sperm drop into a clingy drop and we made the clot into a lump of flesh That is wrong. That's all absolutely correct. But that's absolutely wrong at a time Absolutely. What's the thing about flesh about bones and let me let me address that first Then I'll get to your issue about the clot and something or another Um, okay. So can you guys see my screen over here? Yeah, yeah, okay. Wonderful. We're sure so the actual text it says we covered the bones with flesh So I think he's trying to say no no no bones do not Are not covered with flesh now Let's see what science actually says or it says actually and we and we closed the bones with flesh So let's get to the scientific reference. This is from professor keithmore It says first bones were formed and cartilage models as cartilage as cartilage. Hold on a second Please wait, please first bones First the bones form as cartilage And and then the muscles develop around them So do do do bones? cover The uh, I'm sorry. Do does flesh cover the bones? Yes, but I want to get to it says it covers the cartilage Then it turns into bone. Okay. So let's talk about that claim that what you're saying is that it was never A phase in which bones was actually created. It's all cartilage. Well, where is your reference for that? That would be my first Uh, my first Argument right there. You know when you say things You should have a reference for that Nowhere does science actually say that so let's deal with this latest, uh canard that is actually Look what the Quran says is and we covered the bones as flesh here Now let's now. I know this is kind of hard to read I'll give you the link. It says listen to what it says limb muscles develop in situ From the mezzan kind and around the developing limb bones. Did you see that about six and seventh week? Yes Okay, so do muscles cover the bones? Yes now around the six and seventh week. Yes Now listen to what this professor zack murphy has to say He says remember we talked about how about how we make the skull and all the bones and cartilage and all that stuff What are we okay now? Listen to what he says here. What are we covering? All That with now The muscle Word for word agreement with modern science. I don't even think professor Zachary murphy even knew He was basically echoing exactly word for word what the Quran said because the Quran said that we covered the We covered the bones Let me get to the verse Real quick. I keep forgetting what it. Yeah, I'm sorry and we covered the bones with Flesh, okay, and that's exactly what professor murphy was said in his lecture lecture We covering all that was now the muscle Okay, so there you go. It is actually in 100 The flesh forms before the bones too that you agree with that, right? We actually Don't care because the Quran doesn't talk about which gets all I'm just asking you a question It's not a contradiction of the Right, but you do I actually Uh, no, I I I would say the bones has to form first And then the flesh has to well that that that's not what it says under embryology The flesh before the bones do it's irrelevant because the Quran doesn't talk about which one gets formed first or last So we don't need to go there Well, then do you believe that the science for the flesh forms first before the bones form? I am actually No, I think science actually says the bone then let me share a screen. Yeah, okay. Go ahead. Well, you got to unshare Oh, there you go Yeah, I'll just screen the stink and snip it here because I don't want to read it all I hate I can't see it But here it says the process begins between the sixth and seventh week of embryonic Development and continues until the age of 25 weeks Uh, the process of bone formation starts between the sixth and seventh week So bones don't start forming until the sixth and seventh week Okay, and So it's so yeah, so the flesh begins to form before the bones do That's just to claim. I mean, that's what we know under science You know, yes, well first of all you can interpret it the way you want to I'm just seeing the flesh We can have a debate on embryology, you know at a later time, but let's let's focus on What we you're reading from this long watch. That's good. Well, let's go to the first one Let's let's focus on what the topic of tonight's debate is and then we can do an embryology Chipping miracles. Okay. Yeah Yeah, so can we go to the first one of that payment like I think we need to get back on topic We could talk about embryology the debate the deer is over The topic is is moot. This is audience asking questions To the people who are the experts on Sure topics in this case. So we need to talk about what was debated though. That's my point I spent a lot of time on do you believe babies come from eggs or semen? What's that? Do you believe the eggs the babies the fetus develops from the egg or the semen? I don't know. What do you I don't even know what you're talking about Okay, well just basic fertilization So the baby the fetus develops from the you actually don't need a semen develop a baby You know You can't you can do cloning without it. There's also other ways. I believe that eggs can develop Without semen and I can't remember what the technical term is for that But what happens is that the sperms when it's a bunch of sperms one more long One penetrates the egg and then the embryo develops from the egg So the claim talks about this semen But this comes from our understanding from the Greeks from Aristotle who believed fetuses developed from the sperm Not from the egg because we couldn't rip a person open and see This eggs, right? We could we we knew that sperm came out, right? Like we knew that So like and so it would make sense that they would see that okay based on the knowledge at the time Right common knowledge about fetal development. We see for sperm So it it makes sense that would follow from that that babies come from sperm and not eggs But we know scientifically that's not the case Now you can reinterpret this and this is where i'm going to be fair You can you can you can reinterpret this ever if you want to which verse are you referring to? um 2314 the one you pulled up Well, what does this say that is so problematic then fashioned we the drop of semen a clot of congealed blood Which is not a clot of congealed blood Either right yes, then fat Semen is not a clot of congealed blood just read the verse and you want to talk about clot We could talk about that. Are you seeing semen's a clot of congealed blood? Well, i'm read the text and i'll and i'll respond Then fashioned we the drop semen a clot of congealed blood Then fashioned we the clot a little lump fetus So is your is your problem here that it talked about the semen turning into a clot Is that what your argument i getting i need to be clear what you're talking about Yeah, they converted the semen We've then fashioned we did semen A clot it congealed blood. Is it saying it? Turned it into a clot of congealed blood where it's saying the semen is a clot of congealed blood So the actual and that's through a 23 verse 10 right? 23 14 i think 23 14 so this one verse which is being interpreted as clot you do realize it has three different meanings, right? That's fine. I don't care. So the word is a clot It's it's a very famous word because that word which you are referring to is alaka And alaka has three different meanings number one. It means clot number two something which hangs You know and number three it means something which is like a leech like a leech-like substance the astonishing scientific miracle about this one arabic word is that Every meaning clot leech and something which clings accurately describes the embryo So you might ask well, how does uh, how does the clot actually? Uh describe the embryo. Well, there is a period in the embryonic development where the actual embryo is Filled with blood, but that blood is not circulating that that resembles a clot And by the way that has been submitted to the scientists and in peer reviewed studies Which we submitted that as a scientific miracle. So scientists themselves have had a look on it now The second meaning no scientist is going to see this is true. Not not a single one.  How many this comes from an egg dude. It doesn't come from the semen It comes from an egg. Okay. Now you first just said no scientists would I agree with this one Okay, so what if I show you more That a fetus comes from a sperm and not no the the issue about alaka the clot and how it has three different meanings And they saw this as being a scientific miracle. Let me do can you guys see my screen? I'm gonna share my desktop here real quick. You know, like ms. Kerry just happened, right? Okay, you could see this stuff come out. I'm addressing was what's your argument? You said you said that but they're not lots of blood would really agree with this verse I'm sure if you can see my screen. I'm showing you three Professor Keith Moore, which is one of them tv and their papers uh department of anatomy of university of manitoba and e marshal johnson They all talk about this word what they they what they were astonished by the scientific Accuracy of the Quran now remember what now remember the Quran actually has three mean I mean that word has three meanings leech and something which clings and And a and a clot so it could mean any one of the three or it could mean all three However, what caught the sign the the eyes of the scientists is leech and something which clings They according to these three embryologists, which I have pointed out to you. That's exactly What how you describe the embryo now?  Let me show you a book on embryology in that book of embryology This is the guy who knows nothing of the Quran. He knows nothing about Islam Listen to what he what he said is this is anatomy demystified A self-teaching guide by dr. Dale layman. He's totally oblivious to Islam. Listen to what he says here He says over here Another membrane becomes the yoke sack which provides nourishment for the for the early embryo By by 24 days the connection stock appears in the middle of the of the now Worm like body. Did you see that he's calling it a worm? Well, that's it pretty much what a very good Description of a leech Okay, and the yoke sack is hanging off to one side of the connecting stock What was the other meaning of alaka something which is hanging something which is clinging so even in this one Description by a scientist who knows nothing about Islam. He described two meanings of the word alaka That's why these scientists are very excited with That with with uh, with this, uh, you know description of the embryo So this is actually a backfired on the questionnaire. He's actually showing the scientific miracle of the book That scientists today If we spend 20 minutes on every question, we can go on we are going to be here a very very long time Um, but yeah that questioner got their money's worth for sure um Next question elusive viper five dollars a scientific study Over a Quranic claim does not make the Islamic claim science Faith claims can't be scientific This entire topic is a category error Well, actually no, uh, the first of all the problem here is none of what he's actually talking about is related to our debate The issue the argument I have presented here is Um, the Quran in Islam is providing better answers from a scientific perspective Then what we see in the bible and I think ozian accepts that I think ozian wants an explanation behind each one He wants additional information before he makes that call But I think he can see this is just a better answer And that's what i'm pointing out to be is a scientific miracle because first of all the question which i'm asking How did a man 1400 years ago know that these are problematic passages in the bible and they need better answers? How did you know that and to be able to? Uh to provide better answers That is miraculous So the whole issue of what he's talking about whether a scripture is science This is all his own wacky quacky interpretation nothing of what he is saying actually is backed by science or facts It's not knowledge because he didn't provide the justification for the claim And we don't know if it's actually true in that case either some of these claims are up to interpretation like with fetal development. So Well, fetal development wasn't part of this debate I mean it kind of came up in the question answers, but the issue which Needs to be acknowledged is islam is better on these issues. That's what I need acknowledgement from Well, you're not going to get it, but if I can show any claim in the in the Quran doesn't match the scientific consensus.  Okay, but ozian now. Here's why I did that Okay, because I want you to hold me to the same standard if I play any interpretation game In in trying to explain away the alleged scientific errors, then you call me out on that Okay, so that's my pledge to you That's my pledge to everybody and that's part of the scientific miracle of islam that you don't need to play Interpretation games to to try to explain away the alleged errors Rather we present scientific facts and scientific research like I did with the whole thing about Ambriology, none of that was some kind of interpretation game. Okay. I presented factual Information with links anybody who has questions on it. I'll provide you the information with those links and you can research it yourself too All right next question five dollars from Person with symbols for names There is a hadith where the Muhammad said That flies carry disease on one wing and the antidote on another That is just plain wrong Sounds like more like a question, but if any of you guys want to Add to that nine. I've heard of it. I'm not familiar with it. Like yeah, so let's let's see what a parable who cares Well, yeah, well, I'm not going to play any kind of interpretation game Of course I could do I could I could I could explain it away as a parable or something Something like that, but I won't I will I will actually present something from science Um, which which can substantiate that okay, so let's see what uh, what science actually said about this What are you eating by the way potato chips? Yeah, my son bought me his dinner Oh, okay. Gotcha. You're making me hungry Sorry Okay, so Um, so here we go. Here is an article on this topic and let's see what it says over here. Um, blah, blah, blah Okay So the the issue here is it's the latest anti the news of the buzz on on anti biotics So to, uh Let's see if I find the actual text here I didn't underline what I wanted to read actually here Um, can can you summarize? Yeah Um, okay. Here we go. Th