All right. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to a new week. This is this time with the word of prayer. So any one of us can please lead in prayer before we start our session. Let's go ahead. Anybody can start. Father, God is really good. Jesus, Lord, we come to you. Thank you for this morning, for your goodness and grace, Lord. Thanks for this time, Lord, for this class. As we are learning, Lord, help us to understand and receive. Let eyes of our understanding be opened that we'll know how to do things softly, Lord Jesus. Let everything become easy. God, we surrender to you, Lord Jesus. Amen. Thank you, Siddharth. All right. So just a quick review of what we did last week. Let me just present the notes here also. So lastly, we talk about the sense of becoming a cell church. First thing, we talked about how we have to change our mindset and continuously raise up leaders. So every time, you know, we think of the life group, even if you're starting a life with already part of a life group, our mind should always think of, OK, I need to raise leaders. Then, you know, you have a single task that is to build a cell group and then the essence of a cell church. Relationships, participation, empowering, focuses on Jesus, not on any person. Outreachers, you can do it within your cell groups. You can have two or three cell groups together, which is networking to do any kind of outreach. And then prayer. We talked a little bit about this and how prayer is the foundation of a cell group, being a cell group leader. Prayer should be a priority. Get the Holy Spirit to receive from the Holy Spirit, hear from the Holy Spirit, because a strong cell group is formed through the Holy Spirit. We need the anointing, we need protection, we need to have unity, healings and miracles. Now all of these things are supernatural things. So we cannot get them out of natural methods. Yes, planning and execution, strategy, all that is important. But prayer will help us to, you know, in terms of a cell group or even a church, where the anointing of the Holy Spirit is formed out. God protects the church, protects the people within the community. There's unity, there's salvation, there's miracles, there's healings, there's a work of the Holy Spirit. Now that cannot be achieved through strategy. So prayer is integral. So today we just move on from this. These are just the different types of cell groups. And I'm sure that most of us know about area cell groups, music cell groups, prayer cell groups, men's, women, youths, adults, single moms, so many, so many cell groups. But what I want to get to this today is talk a little bit about cell groups, youth cells, right? Now, the reason I thought we'll just talk about this is because when we see what's happening around us now, a lot of youth have a lot of questions. They have been exposed to the so many things of the world, which are some of which are good, some of which are evil, some of which we as parents or we as leaders must protect and guide our youth. Many a times our youth are lost. They don't know where to go. What should I do in life? Now, so I just thought we'll talk a little bit about youth cells. So what is a youth-led cell group? A youth-led cell group is basically a group of 12 youth from different backgrounds. They come together, meet together for prayer, edification, fellowship, just being there for each other and together doing something for the Lord. Now, why are youth cell groups important? This may not be the notes, but youth cell groups are important because a youth can identify with another youth. So, for example, if there's somebody who's in their late 20s, getting into their early 30s, maybe still not married, they will gel well even if you put them in a family cell group or even if you put them in a men's group or a women's group. They'll be able to manage, but youth is a different story. Because now, youth have different kinds of questions, different problems, and youth nowadays are willing to... They don't hide, like I remember the early 2000s and 2005, 2010, that it was very... the youth wouldn't share much. They would always keep it to themselves. But nowadays, one of the things that I am noticing is that youth are very open. They openly discuss what's happening. They openly share. So, things have changed. So, the way we lead a youth cell group must also change. Overtime, it changes. So, what is the format of a youth-led cell group? A cell group meeting, again, the format can be the same, about 90 minutes. Now, we at ABC, we have a lot of youth cell groups as youth boys, as youth girls. So, one of the things we encourage them is not to be rigid. Because youth, they like to try different things. They like to talk about different things. Now, one of the things that we always focus on, yes, is Sunday sermons must be discussed. But we also give youth, allow for youth energies to spend more time in connecting with each other, relaxing with each other. So, some of the ways is food or snacks is to start off with... Or you can start off with worship. Youth like the whole aspect of worship. So, you can start with worship. So, these are just examples you can do it however you'd like. Icebreaker or a game. And then you share your vision statement. And you have the cell topic discussion, which is the Sunday sermon. And then you have some ministry time praying for each other. And now, what is so different about this and the other group, the other cell groups, what we train our youth leaders is we tell them, just go easy. You don't have to, you know, we have to do it. We have to pray for 20 minutes now. So, yes, all of this is important. But it's also, you know, only if somebody is willing to share with me. So, for example, I'm a youth leader. If I don't spend time with the youth, how will they come and share with me? They will not. They will just be like, okay, I'm going to a life group, so they'll go. But eventually, if they're not able to open up, if they're not able to discuss, you know, their concerns or what they're going through in life, then eventually they will stop coming to the life group. So, as a youth leader, it is very important to be sensitive to what is happening around. Some of the things that our youth leaders do, not only cell group leaders, but our youth leaders as well, is on a constant, they always get in touch, meet with each other, go have coffees together, spend time together. We play a lot of games, sports. So, for example, there's badminton, there's basketball. What does it do? It helps build relationships and people begin to share how they're feeling, how things are in their life. And that's when a youth life group, a youth cell group becomes effective. So, what is one of the challenges in the church? One of the main challenges is how to develop and train youth leaders and adult leaders. As you choose youth leaders, eventually as they keep leading, probably they get married, they can continue on to be adult leaders in the church or in any ministry within the church. But if they choose to move on and to do something else, that's up to them. But normally, youth leaders, even after they get married, they begin to serve in the adult church. But how do we develop and train youth leaders? How do we disciple them? Now, here's a few things. These are just a few points and I'll add to it, but I want to begin with this. Be in-depth when you're talking to them. Be vulnerable, be revealing in the sense, let them know that you're not the only one going through problems. Meaning, they are not the only one who are going through problems and challenges. Even we have gone through it as youth using probing questions. Recently, last week, I was talking to a gentleman from a young man from the church and he was saying, I am addicted to smoking and I'm just not able to give it up. I'm not able to and I feel guilty after that. I don't know what to do and I was very sad that he's not able to overcome it. It's very easy to say, what you're not praying, you have to ask the Holy Spirit when he can empower you. That may be the truth, but there's a way to deal with it because he knows he's trying his best and this is a stronghold in his life. So he needs help. Already he's down. Bringing condemnation is not going to help that person right now. So, how can I help him? That should be our attitude. How can I help this person? Some of the things that I just mentioned to him was, there are many of them who go through problems like this. You're also smoking, but there are others who go through, maybe it's media or maybe it is pornography. Some of them it's different things, but we can all overcome it because we all have the Holy Spirit inside us. I just began to talk to him and just getting him to take small steps and just asking questions. When do you feel this urge? Is it usually in the morning or is it in the evenings? And then they become honest. They just begin to share with us. So, as youth leaders, some of the things, the pointers that we always give our youth leaders is, don't bring condemnation, don't mock, don't ridicule people, don't have the attitude of holier than thou, meaning, oh, I'm so holy at such a young age, how can we not be able to do it? That's not what we want, but we're not only depending on our experience, but we also bring in the word. Here's the pointer message. Given the word, maybe share messages, share now with so much available online, share maybe those two-minute messages, five-minute inspirational sermons, a hard-hitting word, and let the word minister to them. And when you're looking at leaders, when we are discipling leaders, we allow them to journey along with us. So we tell them where we have failed. We encourage them to take bold steps to come out of their comfort zones. So these are additional things that we can do in terms of training youth leaders. Now, sometimes youth leaders may not know what to say when it comes to mentoring and people may have queries. Other youth may have things that they're going through, which may be overwhelming. They can always contact their youth pastor or the cell group pastor or the senior pastor and just share their thoughts and all of that. But raising up youth leaders, developing them, training them is very, very important. And one of the things we always emphasize is being an example. I cannot say something and do something else because youth are very, very smart. They learn. They watch and they learn. They seek. And every time they see if we are saying something and we're doing something else, very freely, they will call it out. But as youth leaders and as pastors, always develop and train youth leaders, look out for them. Sometimes they'll be youth leaders who are, there will be people, youth who just come to church, they're serving every Sunday, but they never saw themselves as youth cell leaders, but they're serving every Sunday in church. Give them opportunities, see if they're capable. And it's okay. Allow them to make mistakes, correct them when they make mistakes. Making mistakes is alright. They look at the Lord Jesus when he chose the 12, almost all of them made some mistake or the other. I'm sure they all did, but Jesus encouraged them through them. And another way, another aspect that we have just started in youth cell groups is where we encouraged them to ask questions. In the sense they were through, it could be work questions, it could be questions in their personal life, questions of the Bible, some things that they don't understand, you know. And remember, no question is a silly question. Two Sundays back, the youth came up to me and said, he's been with our church for a long time, and he said to me, I'm still finding it very difficult to comprehend this whole Trinity thing. He's been part of church for many years, but it's alright. And he's been serving in church. It's not like, oh, you've been in church for so long, how can you not understand this now? That's something that he's going through and we must have the passion to reach out for them, care for them. One of the important things that we must remember is if we don't raise up youth leaders, we will not have enough adult leaders because 90% of youth leaders tend to become adult leaders. And so even now in our church, a lot of our youth life group leaders were from our children's church. They finished children's church, they've gone into the youth team church. We didn't have the church, we just started it, but they finished children's church. They started serving in the church and then slowly after serving, they're all youth leaders and youth side group leaders. So strategize, start training them when they're probably 12, 15 years old. Begin to train them, begin to give them opportunities and eventually we will see them becoming good adult side group leaders. But one thing that we really like to emphasize in APC is to ensure that our youth are able to reach out to any one of us. They can reach out to any one of us from the past total team. They can reach out to life group leaders. They can request for counseling or just being open and we are doing our best so that we can reach out to the youth that are going through so much right now. And of course not all of them are. Some youth are just fine. They just go to college, finish, come. Some of them are just working. It's all right. Nothing that's major going on in their life, but many of them have a lot of questions. And so we must be willing as leaders to help them out. Again, here's the cell health assessment tool, the upward model, the model that we saw. So maybe you can take a printout of this and if you'd like, you can add things to it. And just do a survey and what your, if you have a cell group, if you're planning to start one, you can start and see if this will help you to see where your cell group is at and how you can improve in the future. So feel free to ask, add questions into that health assessment too. Okay, let's go to the next section of this study. We'll talk about, sorry, yeah, preparing to become a cell leader. Some of the points may be repeated, but we'll just talk, go a little bit deeper into the points that we have talked about. Preparing to become a cell group leader now, even as I continue teaching, feel free to stop and ask questions. And you can also post your questions. You can also raise your hands and then we can ask you, unmute and ask you questions. Right, preparing to become a cell group leader. First thing, the cell leader's personal spiritual life. Now, this is the first thing, maintain a strong personal walk with God. This is something that we have to do. Right, let's read Isaiah, sorry, Matthew chapter five and verse 19. Matthew five, 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men so he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But whosoever shall do and teach them the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. So Matthew, so Jesus is saying this, and he's saying, whosoever therefore shall break one of the least of the commandments and shall teach men so he shall be called the least in the kingdom of God. So basically, the whole essence of this verse is we have to do before we can teach. We have to live it before we can teach it. Now, I cannot tell the cell group leaders, you must have a personal time with God, always spend time in this presence, read his word, meditate on his word, ask the Holy Spirit to minister to you, begin to flow in the gifts of the Spirit. I cannot tell others if I myself have not done it. I mean, I can, but it's not going to be effective. I have to live it first and then I can teach it to others because it becomes real. Otherwise, it'll just be knowledge for the others here.  I try to spend time in God's presence. You are youth leaders. You need to hear from God and God can minister to you, begin to read trust in God's word. There will be challenges. I'm sharing all this, but what if I don't do and I teach it? They can say, hey, are you doing it? Are you praying? Are you teaching? Are you spending time in God's presence? Are you reading the Word of God? Are you meditating on God's word? Now, we have to live it to teach it. Always remember, now this is not only for settled groups. This can be applied to pastors, to leaders, to anyone in ministry or even in the workplace. You have to do before we teach. Jesus was the perfect example. He said, he did. Then he said, go and teach what I told you to do. He healed the sick. The blind saw the deaf. He heard the mute spoke. The lame walked. The lepers were healed. Then he chose seven to two others and he said, go and do what you see me do. Go and teach what you see me teach. What you heard me teach. Go and live the way I am living right now. Teach others to do that. I'm going to wash my, the disciple's feet. He's washing the disciple's feet. Probably he's saying, now I've lived it in front of you. I'll go and teach it to others. That's what Jesus says about the Pharisees, Matthew chapter 15 and verse 14. Let them alone. They be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, go and shall fall into a ditch. Look at these pointers. These are so important. You cannot teach something you haven't learned and experienced yourself. You and I cannot teach others about, you know, for example, let's take prayer or worship. You're going to teach others, hey, you know, we can, these are the things we can receive when we pray and worship the Lord. If we haven't experienced it or we haven't learned it and we haven't tasted the goodness of God in that area of our lives, we will not be, you know, we cannot teach it to others. If you've not learned and experienced it ourselves. If I haven't gone through challenges and difficulties and seeing God, you know, just working in those difficult times and my times of weakness, I cannot teach it to others. I can just say, hey, you know, God is there. God will stand to me. Yes, those can be encouraging. But if I've gone through it, I will really be able to share it with others. You know, you cannot lead people where you yourself have not gone as God. Right? Don't lead people where you have not gone yourself. If I haven't gone into the prayer room, spending time in the Lord, with the Lord, hearing from God, hearing from the Holy Spirit, I cannot lead people there. If I haven't seen God moving, the Holy Spirit moving in my life groups and the church and my ministry, how can I let people move people to experience it? I've got to, I've got to see it myself. I've got to taste it myself. And then when I minister to others, it'll, it's like you're drawing them to God's presence. The best example is that of a worship leader, right? You look at a worship leader. It's not about the worship leader just being, oh, I'm the worship leader. You learn more in worship ministry as well. It's not about just being the worship leader. I've chosen to worship leader, so I'm going to select five songs and sing. Yes, that's the practical thing. But how can I lead people to God's presence when I myself have not been in God's presence? Right? I hope you're getting what I'm trying to say. So the whole aspect of choosing the song list, you know, the keys of the song, the structure of the song, the dynamics, all of that is practical. But as worship leaders, our main responsibility is to bring people, lead people into the presence of God. So for that, I should be in the presence of God. I should have spent at least a couple of hours in prayer. I should have read the Word, meditated on that Word, asked the Holy Spirit to minister to bring signs, wonders and miracles to, you know, just bring healing upon people. People are coming with a lot of bondages to break off bondages, to bring down walls during the time of worship. Only if I spend time in the presence of God, and my personal technique will reflect in the public ministry. Right? So remember this. We cannot lead people where we ourselves have not gone. I cannot lead people, you know, in a life loop, if I haven't spent time in God's presence. I mean, I can lead them in a practical way. But if you want to see lives changed, being ministered to, I need to be standing up in God's presence. Right? Look at this. We cannot give something we do not have. Right? Now, for example, this is just an example, right? If I have, you know, if anyone of us, say a life group leader, has tasted the goodness of God in terms of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he has tasted, he's seen the benefits of speaking in tongues. Or he has seen the power of, you know, just spending time in God's presence. When I'm ministering to people in my cell group, I can tell them, hey, you know, maybe some of them has come and say, I still know, I still cannot speak in tongues. So then you can teach them, you can tell them, hey, this is what happens. You know, it's not about us. It's not about, you know, it is God who baptises us, continue to look to God, continue to trust God. And here's what happens when we pray in tongues. This God, it's, you know, it's just bringing out the scripture. You're saying, this is what God does. Our natural mind may be unfruitful, but our spirit is communing with the Father. And there is a unity there. We are being built up when we pray in tongues.  Continue to look to God and ask God to pour out the gifts of the Holy Spirit on you. Then you say, you know, you can do that for all the gifts of the Spirit, but you cannot give it unless you haven't tasted it, right? So we must, it calls for a sacrifice. You cannot administer deliverance in areas where you yourself are bound. This is powerful, right? Imagine this. Say, for example, there's a youth leader, a cell group leader. This cell group leader is addicted to social media. This is just an example. And the moment he or she wakes up in the morning, searches for the phone, goes into Facebook, Instagram, it's how many likes of this checks others, you know, YouTube story or Instagram. So whatever, it's been about an hour on that. Right? And slowly it's every day. It's one hour, but slowly it becomes two hours a day. Right?  God will continue to have grace on us. But in your youth, the cell group, somebody may come and say, I have a problem. What is the problem? I'm addicted to social media. I cannot stay without Instagram. When people don't like my pictures, I get offended or I, my day depends on how many likes are there on my photo or my pics that I have posted. And I need to look at Facebook, Instagram, at least 10 to 15 times a day. I'm not able to break it out. I don't like it. I don't want it. I'm listening to all kinds of things. I'm seeing things that are vulgar. I want to break off this habit. Please help me. As a youth leader, as a cell group leader, we cannot administer deliverance in that area because we ourselves are bound in that. So what was he doing? He must first, you know, if this happens to any of us, we can just leave them say, hey, I think it'll be good if you can speak to the cell pastor or the senior pastor, or you can get some counseling on this. I may not be equipped enough to help you in this area because being honest with them is even better. You can just say, you know, this is something that even I've been struggling with. So maybe you can talk to somebody else, but here's the thing.  I cannot administer deliverance in areas where I myself am bound. That needs to, you know, we must remember this. Now, many times there are many that are youth, not necessarily from our church, but there are many youth who I know of who are leaders in the church. And I asked them, hey, what are you studying? What are you reading from the word? What is God speaking to you? He said, yeah, God is speaking to me as usual through the scriptures. So what do you do throughout the week? Have you seen this series that's coming in Netflix? And they're watching all kinds of series, like they may not be well-guaranteed, but they watch series. So that's like 10, 12 episodes in one series. And that probably has like three, four series. And I thought to myself, these are leaders in the church. It's done so much time. Each episode will be probably 40, 45 minutes. Now, I'm not being legalistic by saying, don't watch. But as leaders, it's a call to sacrifice. We have to keep progressing into maturity, into Christlikeness. That's what our goal must be. Yes, there will be times you may want to watch a movie. Or you may want to watch a couple of episodes. It's all right, but make sure it's not vulgar. Make sure it doesn't affect your spiritual life. But your primary focus as leaders must be, hey, I need to grow in maturity too. I need to be Christliked. Is this helping me to become mature in Christ? Many times, many, many times, both of our students and youth in church, they come up to me personally and they ask me, do you watch movies? Do you watch CDs or things on Netflix and Amazon Prime? All of these. Firstly, I don't have a Netflix account or Amazon. I don't know. I don't have it. But my answer to them was an occasional, sometimes, I sit with my kids and watch these cartoon movies. That's the maximum I watch. And even if it's cartoon movies, I can't watch the whole thing because I'm not wired that way. It's just me. I cannot sit for one and a half hours, one hour for an entire movie. It's very difficult for me. Many times, I've been watching these animated movies with my kids and I just fall asleep because it just doesn't interest me. Many times, I think to myself, hey, is this going to help me grow to become more Christ-like? Is it going to help me in any way? So that is the answer I gave many of them. Is it going to help me become more Christ-like? The answer is no. So I don't want to waste my time on this. So maintain spiritual disciplines, discipline of prayer, discipline of worship, discipline of word, word confession, fasting, fellowship. Now, there are times, right? And I remember when we had a small little one, my first son was born and it was really challenging because we got to get up, look after the kid. A lot of time went into that. So those seasons are okay. You just hold fast to what God is teaching you at the moment. You spend as much time as you can in God's word and prayer. It may not be as much as you'd like it to be, but maintain a consecrated life before God. So you don't have to feel guilty, oh, I didn't spend one hour in prayer. It's all right because we have kids, we have things to do. But as they grow up, our responsibilities get less minimized and we tend to have more time, right? Second one, maintain a life that is constantly consecrated to God, right? Maybe one of us can read Ephesians 4.27. It's a wonderful verse. Ephesians 4.27. Anyone of us can read. We have your Bibles with you. Please go ahead and read Ephesians chapter 4 and verse 27. Yes. Anyone have the Bibles with you? Ephesians 4.27. Please go ahead and read it. Nor give place to the devil. Nor give place to the devil. Literally the next verse as well. Let him who stole steam no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hand what is good, that he may have something to give him who has made him. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Now it says there, give no place to the devil in your life. Look at what 1 Peter says. Always be on your guard. 1 Peter 5 and verse 8. Be sober, be vigilant because your adversary, the devil, is a rolling lion walking about thinking whom he may devour. So Peter is writing to the believers and he's saying always be on your guard. Be aware. Be sober minded. I like that verse. Think straight. Don't just do things in the spur of the moment. Don't just do things just because based on our emotions, we'll be angry if we just do something and then later regret it. Be sober. Be vigilant. Be sober minded. Think about what you're doing. Think about why you're doing it. Be vigilant because the enemy, the devil, is like a rolling lion seeking whom he may devour. And it can all start off with just a small room that we give the enemy. Right? I like those four stages and we learned it in the series on my mind at the four stages. Remember that? First it's a thought the enemy brings. Then that thought becomes an argument and a reasoning. We begin to argue and we begin to reason with it. It's alright. It's just once in three months, once in six months. It's alright. Nothing wrong. Everyone are doing this so I can do it. It's alright. Then that thought, if it's not dealt with, argument, that reasoning, it's not dealt with. It becomes an imagination. But imagination is as if you're participating in that sin. It's as real.  And then for it becomes a strong hold in a person's life. So it all starts off with a thought. How do you think people get suicidal tendencies? It's all a thought. You're no good. Why don't you end your life so that your parents will be happy? Everyone else will be happy. You don't have to live in this way. So that's a thought. Then that thought gets into an argument and reasoning so a person can say, oh no. I should not end my life. I need to live. I want to live. I have a good family. Then the other side of the argument but what are you doing for your family? You're not doing anything. Nothing's going right in your life. Oh yes, nothing's going right. Now third one, if it's not dealt with, it becomes an imagination. So how do I do this?  Should I take? Should I try this way? Should I try that way? Should I cut myself? And these are all the thoughts. It becomes an imagination. It's like real. And if that's not dealt with, it becomes a strong hold. That strong hold keeps on coming every now and then. But you and I, the Bible says, as believers, creator is he who's in us than he does in the world. Get rid of demonic strongholds in your life. Be aware there's a reality of a spiritual enemy. There are strongholds. There can be strongholds in believers' lives, areas in the soul that are controlled and occupied by demonic spirits. Right? So, you must be aware of it. Get rid of it. A mind that considers evil good and good as evil, a mind given to worldliness is Satan's foothold in a believer's life. Can we believe this? Right? The areas of our thought life which we keep in darkness instead of bringing into life, we embrace lies instead of submitting to the word truth of God's word, these are areas Satan has us bound in. Sometimes we feel, oh, I am, there are people that I speak to, they say, I'm out of help right now. That is a life of the devil because there is no way that God cannot restore all the heat. The scriptures teach us so much about it. He is willing to save to the uttermost. Our strongholds are thought patterns in our mind where we have become tolerant to sin. We become tolerant. It's alright to watch pornography. It's alright to think of lustful things as just in my mind. It's alright to say a couple of bad words while I speak. We have compromised. It's where we have compromised and replaced the truth with a lie giving Satan a place of influence and a place of defense within our minds. So in our mind it becomes a stronghold. Now, just a little bit of information a little bit of sidetrack but it's important for us as believers to understand this. A Christian cannot be possessed by demons because the Holy Spirit dwells in our spirit. In the book of John Jesus blew on them and they receive the Holy Spirit the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once you and I as believers we accept the Lord Jesus. The Holy Spirit comes and resides inside us. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ he's a new creation. All things have passed away. All things become new. So the spirit man is new but however a Christian can be in bondage. He can be oppressed. He can be harassed in areas in the mind areas in the body occupied with demonic spirits of oppression. Right? Because whose fault is that? We have given entrance of these spirits to the enemy. We have given ground to the enemy. We have not been sober-minded. We have not been diligent not been careful knowing that there is an enemy that is working. Right? Now depending on the entrance to them through his consistent thought and behavior the person his mind, his body comes oppressed habitual sin controllable lust compulsive behavior you know another area could be you know anger not sure but I've heard of people who believe us. They get angry that they are able to carry these things that are so heavy that normally they won't be able to carry it able to carry it and throw them but in the Bible this may not be the right example but when you're demonically energized you know remember that boy they tied him up you just break those chains in a way that even possessed boy so when areas not only physical but in our emotion, our soul are demonically energized what happens in Satan stronghold you know it becomes like saying stronghold in a believer's life and a person will remain at bondage until he or she makes a decision and says hey I must not give into this anymore now some of it comes through counseling some of them of course counseling, prayer, both together but some cases God can just work or can just break off the demonic spirits that habitual sin but you and I as believers must you know must always protect ourselves protect ourselves we are attempting to condone ourselves or blame the devil for our sinful behavior but we must understand that it is our responsibility to keep all those shut for the enemy all those shut now we also understand that we are human beings we go through different challenges we go through ups and downs and there are emotions that we have emotions like fear, doubt all of that will come but at that moment we can take authority I am not saying we can be stoic we don't have any emotions no when we lose a loved one there is emotions there is bereavement it is hurt yes but we also take courage it says don't lose hope be absent in the body be present with the Lord so if we see things ahead there is fear right now few of our there are a lot of you who are going through very difficult time because of the recession the global recession that is predicted say oh what if I lose my job I just shared I told them this minister to them said hey when I was talking with you even in the famine you will prosper just encouraging them fear doubt all of these things will be there but we counter it with God's word counter it with what God is doing and give no place for the devil understand that satan uses strongholds to keep believers from the effect in the ministry uses these strongholds. It could be money, women, men, the things of this world, luxuries of this world. Here's what Mike Murdoch says, an unconquered weakness always births a tragedy. So we must shut the enemy, we must close the enemy. So one of the books that I can probably think of reading is Laying the Acts to the Root, by Pastor Ashish. You can probably download it off the website of you. And just read it. Sure, it'll be a good treat here. All right, let's take a break. We'll come back in 10 minutes, and we'll continue that class. Thank you.


Bring us to talk about issues such as inequalities, ethical approaches to open and social justice. And Sue is a scholar of each of these things. So we felt that Sue would have some important things to say and perhaps some frameworks that might help us if this isn't our background to think through some of the challenges that we have. So Sue is a sociologist and a scholar of human rights, higher education, international development and decolonial perspectives. And her goal is to enact critical global and ethical higher education curricula. So please welcome Dr. Sue Ming-Ku. So I don't know about frameworks, but anyway, I'd like to just start thinking about open as a set of openings. And how these openings relate to inequities and the way our lives are connected and the ways in which these inequities are bound or could be unbound by our openings. So it's going to be a kind of like a little circular journey, this path. And I've chosen to make the path around the Pacific because the world of open is a kind of borderless world, but is strangely geographical. And a kind of whole missing area in our geography is the Pacific. So I want to start with a story from the northwest coast of the Pacific Americas. And then I want to explore the way we've been entangled through another kind of opening, the opening of resources. But I want to reflect back in upon ourselves and to think of what that opening did to us, to those who opened, and to look that in the face. I then want to look at some of the difficulties and the promising difficulties, the good trouble that this could bring to us. And we have to confront and face those wounds and open veins of dispossession in an educational context and how we in higher education are very bound up. I want to think about the hope that we have for repairing those openings which are painful, the open wounds of colonialism and of dispossession. And think about this opportunity to remake the public spaces in a way that visibly repairs and heals some of those wounds with commitments to justice. And to bring us together then in the open in this journey. So I hope I won't take more than half an hour to do this, to think about some of these things. So obviously I don't have a lot of time, but I just want to start then on the northwest coast of the Pacific and I want to travel all the way to the Trobriand Islands in Melanesia to use this, a circuit around the Pacific if you like. So I want to start with this story from the Haida Guai people of the Pacific Northwest coast of Canada. And I was very taken, absolutely loved this sculpture in Vancouver's Museum of Anthropology, a museum which I'm going to problematize museums, but a museum which I think is playing a very important role within a university setting in helping to repair using this idea I think of culturally sustaining pedagogies. And so this sculpture is by Bill Reed, he was Haida, his mother's Haida and his father was German I think, a very well known sculptor, very well loved and this is one of the treasures of the museum. And it's a depiction of the first opening of the world for the Haida people. The raven is the trickster, he's the most powerful being in Haida mythology and cosmology. And he's walking along the Rose Pit Beach, which is the country of the Haida people. And he's not hungry because he's eaten very well because it's been a great flood and it's brought a bounty of food and so he's not hungry, he's just having a look and he spies a clam and it catches his eye. So he goes down to have a look at it and he sees these tiny people, something moving and he decides to have another closer look and these people seem to be trying to get out of the clam, so he opens the clam and then the people are afraid, some of them want to go back into the clam and he decides that he's going to coax them, he's a trickster so he has a smooth coaxing tongue so he persuades them to come out and some of them, you can see that somebody's bottom is trying to go back inside the clam and some people are coming out but they don't really look very happy, he coaxes them anyway and he has these kind of supernatural powers and then he's brought these people into the world and he coaxes them come into the world because he says to them the world is wonderful so he cajoles them and they come out and of course they're not really fit for anything, these people, right, because they don't know how to look after themselves. So just through this kind of curiosity and his sort of like his random act of kindness if you like to these people, he helps them, he teaches them to use the salmon and the cedar and you know it's kind of like a guardian person, right, but he's only done it out of curiosity. So that's a beautiful little story about openings and how the first people came into the world in Haider stories but the fact is that we didn't come out of a clam, the world was all not new, it wasn't undiscovered, it was already opened so I wanted the story to start as thinking about the entanglement that we have with the natural world, with the places of the world and with the others of the world and to begin to face certain facts of this opened world that the Haider Gwai were dispossessed in the world, in the real world, by law, by markets and very importantly by education and these are the structures which continue in a world which is the colonial present. So we are entangled in the world through a history of colonialism and decolonization is not a historical event, it is a structure that has to come into being to answer to the structure of colonial entanglement. So colonization was not an event, it is a structure, all those events are not in the past, they are still in the present and one of the ways in which many people encounter and read about and learn about the colonial present is this idea of the open veins, the veins that were opened by colonialism through which wealth and knowledge and resources and territory was extracted from the majority world. So this very well-known book by Eduardo Galliano was published in the 1970s and continues to be read today, this idea of the open veins of Latin America, he is an Uruguayan writer and read extensively not just in Latin America but in its English translation and on the right is an illustration by a journalist, writer Angela Roscoe who wrote about how she also made this picture, how she felt when she read that book, Open Veins of Latin America, the pain that she felt when she read and discovered what this being opened was about. So colonial entanglement creates open veins and open wounds of colonialism which continue through, as you can see in Kate Bowles' address yesterday, extraction, prospecting for materials, biomaterials, for minerals, for knowledge but also through enclosure, enclosure of the knowledge commons as well as the resource commons and unbundling, something that we often think of as maybe in a more positive way, unbundling is also a form of extraction or can be because unbundling is about taking the resource away from its context and from the relationships that the context embeds the resource in and when that happens that is the door for extraction. So something for us to think about when we are thinking about unbundling and the information commons, when we think about academic resources, how are we going to deal with the colonial present and to enact decoloniality, how can we unveil and unmask the colonial wound and how can we use these open wounds, difficult as they are to be the places where reimagination, recreation, healing and suturing take place. So that's just, these are not literal frameworks, these are kind of motifs for thinking. But before I circle on, I want to circle back when we're thinking of suturing and healing. I first thought of this motif, I'm sorry, it's a very difficult picture, about the broken faces of our own modernity and our relationship with technology. And the ambivalent and critical thinking about modernity and technology reached a new breaking point at the outbreak of the First World War. People did not realize what had been unleashed by modernity imperialism and technology. We've had a hundred years to think about this now. And the centenary of the so-called Great War was a very important opportunity to open the archive and to look at it. So World War I was a point when we had invented more technology than we could handle. People had come up with a more efficient kind of gun. They'd also come up with a more useful form of safety gear. So the combination of the machine gun and the steel helmet and modern medicine, field surgery, hygiene techniques, these all led to a large number of people with horrendous head injuries who didn't die of the injuries. Their brains weren't blown out straight away, but half of their faces were. They survived, but they were traumatized physically and emotionally. And what were we to do then with the aftermath of this extraordinary technology which still kills more people every single year than the two atom bombs? The real weapons of mass destruction are rapid fire guns. So we came up with this for the aftermath. And this was the beginning of facial reconstruction surgery. And what facial reconstruction surgery could not help, art helped to mask. So the pictures taken from Smithsonian Archive manuscripts, some photographic archives of the artistry of an artist called Anna Ladd, who helped these facially wounded people in a studio in Paris. And she made thin metal masks which were painted in a very lifelike way with enamel paints to restore the semblance of a face to those who had lost part of their faces. Very extremely painful and poignant photographs. But of course actually what the masks were for were to protect the onlooker and not the wounded person. Because the onlookers could not bear, society could not bear to look at people whose faces that society had destroyed. So what could not be repaired was covered, masked, to protect the onlooker. And I think this gives us a very self-reflective and hard different kind of reflection on the famous decolonial writings of Franz Fanon, black skin, white masks. You think about what was masked by whiteness and by the mask of whiteness. And really the bottom picture is from the art archive of an amazing artist. I'm going to talk about him a little bit more. A French, Algerian artist who now lives in Germany called Cadet Atia. He's recently at a show at the South Bank Center in London. And he has done amazing artworks which are all around the theme of decolonization, colonialism and repair. And he's brought together then this idea of the broken faces. He used the French archive of broken faces, they're actually an association of veterans that were started, of veterans who required maxillofacial surgery. And they would call a girl cassée the broken faces. And this phrase just resonated and resonated. It wouldn't go away in my mind. I was thinking about the broken faces. And then I saw this work by Cadet Atia, which was about repair. And somehow kind of began to understand what he was trying to do as an artist was to create public imagining of what repair must look like. And he kind of criticizes this desire for the perfect repair. Like the perfect mask, the beautiful masks that Anna Coleman Ladd painted for the First World War veterans. That the repair should not mask and cannot mask the injury. But indeed that there's a certain kind of honor and value in repairs that are visible. I just want to reflect a little bit on what lies underneath and scaffolds colonialism extraction, the open veins and the open wounds. And this is a very kind of ordinary scaffolding. And I got thinking about this when reading this amazing book by Caitlin Rosenthal. I definitely one of the kind of books that's really deepened the way I think about resources and extraction and people and management and prices. And there are three figures then. They're too small for you to see them, but I explained what they are. This idea of the commodification of people underlies the brokenness of our modernity. Yeah, when on the left hand side a list from 1785 of prices. And what you see at the very bottom of that list, it's a bit too small probably to read, are people who are placed and priced alongside the things that people were used to produce. Tobacco, sugar, rum, these were the products of slavery along with the new Negroes priced at 451 to 501 pounds. And this is human lives exchangeable for the commodities that were made by these lives, appropriated and sold on the market. At the top right, which is far too small, is a list, it's replicated from this book by Caitlin Rosenthal. And it's a list of prices of slaves by an auction house, so the list is published by the auction house, of people ranked by gender and height. So if you were four foot three, you were a certain price. And if you were five foot eight, you were another price. If you were a man, you were one price. And if you were a woman, another price. So the ranking of commodified humans by height and sex. And in the book, she also details how people were ranked by skills. I just want us to think about education for a moment in brackets. Okay? So education is built upon the scaffold of substitutable commodities and ranked persons. It's a very difficult legacy that we have. And by the management of labor productivity via quantification. So the last piece of documentation from the archives in Rosenthal's book there is a list of slaves being measured by their productivity, how much cotton they picked in a day. So the Excel spreadsheet, right? The Gantt chart, the list of tasks, these are the all have their origins in slavery. I'm not saying that slavery caused these formats, but that these formats emerged at the same time as slavery. Commodification of things, of places and of people. So this scaffolding and background are behind our current boundedness and our boundedness to inequities. Because higher education we would like to think is a kind of zone of freedom. Is a zone that is autonomous, guaranteed by our academic freedom. When someone asks me what does it mean to work in higher education, I answered without hesitation. Academic freedom. And the person who asked me was taken aback. She said, oh, I'm a bit surprised. But that's what it meant to me. But that academic freedom is bound up and shaped by our structural entanglements. Entanglements with governmental power, with capitalism, and with the ordering logics, the scaffolding logics of capitalism, which were about valuation but also devaluation of people and things. So that is the colonial present. It's a present where we think of possession and dispossession. Of education and dispossession. Of inclusion but also exclusion. And it's a double bind. A double bind is a kind of a psychological situation when we have demands. And the powerful demand makes it impossible to fulfill the less powerful demand. But both of them are important demands. So we are caught in a back and forth. And I think this is the demand of commodification. The demand of capitalism. The demand of embeddedness in commodified labor, information, places, and things. That's not to say that it's, you can disentangle it at all easily. Because all forms of entanglement are actually drawing on lots of different types of theory about entanglement. The kind of continuous relationship of people and people and people and things and things and things. And I think it's important that we have a sense of, you know, the things and things and things. So it's very, you can't, you know, you can't untangle them because they are entangled. Entangled means that they are different things at the same time. Yeah? I'm not going to go into the quantum physics of entanglement because I'm not able. And there are many people who are far more able. Listen to Karen Burrard or read her work. But broadly then, the thing with entanglement, what that word means is that our situation is complex and we cannot reduce it to a single legacy with a single victim, a single perpetrator, a single responsible agent, and a single beneficiary, a single exploiter or oppressor. And just a little insight from a Sheldon Bambis amazing book called Critique of Black Reason says this is the little secret of coloniality. Coloniality has a little secret and that little secret is rather a special in education. And that is our very investment in the scaffolding and in the colonial present. In the colony, our complicity, our participation because education is not only a thing in itself, but it is a machine that produces desires and that we are part of that. And our desiring and our idea of what is desirable is bound and entangled with it. So how do we think of what is really the desirable in education? Okay. Sorry, now a little bounce and a bit lighter. Okay. I know it's a bit hard and I know the scary face is still there. The idea of visible repair comes through this Japanese art, the Zen no Wabi Sabi art of Kintsugi or Kintsukoroi, the art of the golden repair. The golden repair kind of invests a certain aesthetic in repair itself. So broken bowls and dishes are repaired carefully with gold dust and lacquer. And it makes the original thing even more valuable for the sake of being repaired. It's just such an interesting concept and something that maybe deserves to be brought to the fore for saking the idea of the perfect repair. So Kade Atia, this French, German, Algerian artist who is interested in reinventing ways to share the public and the political, given the dark times we are living in, has kind of drawn the analogy between this Japanese art of repair and other traditional non-Western arts of repairing things and the situation of entanglement we are in today with the aftermath and the present of coloniality. And just reflecting back to Kade's lecture yesterday about how the university is not a university anymore and the Murray-Darling confluence. It's not only the biogeographical and the natural we need to worry about. Our cultural and our social world is trying up, is not being replenished, is not being nurtured, is not being reforested, whatever that metaphor is. And I think that it's time we thought about this social and cultural infrastructure to begin to redesign our work within this desire for revisible repair, to visibly repair that which is broken by first facing what is broken in the face. Because that's the nature of these dark times, and we do need to reinvent this public sharing in this context where the sense of the public, the trust in the public, the benevolence of the public, the comfort of the public are becoming stripped bare. And part of this is addressing not only the physical, so we have these wonderful sponsors and participants who are involved in repairing and making reparative structures where people can communicate ethically, fairly, justly, inclusively and so on. But we need to address the psychological and emotional legacy of that colonial present and to attend to the needs of both the oppressor and the oppressed. So this is the important aspect in decolonial theory is to understand that oppression was not only for the oppressed, that oppressors were also oppressed by oppression and by being forced to be oppressors and to wear the mask of the oppressor. That that was a traumatic kind of injury and lack and denial of authenticity and identity. I'm on to the almost the last now. Okay, so in five minutes, I want to just think about one of the ask, go back to the scaffolding and the wound and what things can we start repairing with? And I think one of the things that is broken is the way that we think about economics. We've been left with a fragment of economics which is a disembedded, alienated and extracted fragment, extractive fragment. And that there are other ways that we can think of economics which may be more suitable. I'm not saying they're not problematic. They are also problematic, but they may be more suitable for thinking about the work that we do in education and in higher education because it strikes me that what we do is much more like what the anthropologists call a gift economy than a commodity economy. And that's because the things that we exchange are a bit like these cooler arm shells. So in the western Pacific, far west and south of the Haida Gwai peoples are the Melanesian people of the Trobriand Islands. And these people for centuries have practiced an art which is now really struggling to maintain itself. And this is a culture based on the exchange of precious, but so precious that they are valueless ceremonial gifts, these arm shells which are called moali. There are also some necklaces there called sulavas, but mostly about the moalis. And what happens is people in one village on one island set sail in their little dugout canoes across vast expanses of the Pacific to arrive in another island and be given a gift of one of these shells. When you're given a gift of one of these shells, you are now bound to the people of the island that you arrived in.  So it's not about the value of these shells, the value of the shells is the relationship that the shells represent. So gifts are not commodities because gifts are not about the value of the gift. The economic exchange value of the gift is not important. What is important is the relational and effective properties that the gift embodies. And this is something that gifts have that commodities do not have. To me, education looks much more like the arm shell than it looks like the spreadsheet. Because gift exchange is what creates social bonds and creates social cohesion and brings people into community and communication that root word, munos, around the table. And gifts are also problematic because with identity they are tied up with prestige. Not everybody can get an arm shell. Not everybody gets invited to give a keynote. It's kind of a prestige gift in part of this economy of exchange. So just to conclude then, I just want to conclude by mentioning this award-winning paper by Sarah Lambert on recentering open, where she recenters and places the idea of open in a way that faces towards social justice. And to me, yes, this is exactly how I, as a visitor to open, embrace open as a way of wordfully entangling demands for justice. With our social, cultural, justice demands of anti-racism to demystify the differences that have been scarred onto our collective body. I just want to briefly reflect on those things that were offered in the pre-conference, video conference that we had, and what the keynote with the different people seemed to be looking for. Tuscine looking for development. Judy asking who this openness is for and where our southern experiences. Carol with her deep reflection on wanting to understand the lived harshness, the bodily harshness of inequalities. And taking those and gathering those, I want to close by going beyond Sarah's recentering for a minute. And to talk not only about a recentered education, but what one might call an eccentric education. Not to forget that what we are doing is not only social justice, but education for social justice. And education for social justice must be educational. And this is where the idea of eccentric comes in. Because eccentric is about drawing attention to what is missing. To engaging with difference in a way that makes a difference to how we think. Using Gorminda Bambra's idea of connected thinking. And to willfully entangle demands for economic and social justice with the demands for cultural and racial justice. To mystify the experiences. And to be able to foster in people the ability for us in our education not to be ego centered, but to be de-centered. Ex-centered. This is what eccentric education is. So that's what I think educational open education is. It's about education that helps people to be at home in the world in the philosophy of Gert Bister. Education that is eccentric, not ego centered, but relational to those who are other. To involve us in a wider critical and reflective thinking that shares our existence as an in common. That's the end. You can stay, will you take a few questions? Thank you so much, Sue. From Twitter that I was looking at a little bit and just from the feeling at my back sitting in the front. I could feel a lot of energy towards you and interest and admiration. I just want to do a time check and see how much time we have for questions. We have ten minutes. Okay, so I would like to just moderate the questions for you, Sue. And there'll be a mic here. So this is picking up on something that Kate was talking about yesterday as well. She was mentioning that the university is no longer the university.  And in all of those cases there's this sense that there was a time when these things weren't broken. And then they were broken. And now maybe they're repaired. And so my mild concern is that we might be generating a kind of imaginary history where education in the university wasn't broken. Whereas I just wonder whether what's happened is that we find ourselves, we just find in the complexity of the contemporary time, has just shone a light on the fact it's always been broken. Yeah. No, absolutely. So thanks for that. Should I answer one by one? Yeah. So thanks for that. No, I think that's the point about the not a clan. Okay, there was no clan. Because even at the time that you're telling the story about the clam, the people whose story that belonged to had been dispossessed, had their lives wrecked, had been forcibly removed. So removal is a terrible word. Yeah. Which means incarceration and de-institutionalization and deculturation and genocide. So no, there is no clam. There is no pristine moment when it wasn't broken. And that's the point about entanglement is we are already here. So no matter how much we would like to backcast to a nostalgic romance of when education was not broken. Yeah. That doesn't exist in any real institution. Think about this institution here. This lovely new, of course, in 1845, this lovely new lecture theater did not exist. But this institution, this university was built during the famine, which caused the depopulation of half of the country. So, yeah. Anyway, so I forgot to do the thing. My name is Connie Blomgren and I'm from Canada. And so I have a question about, you began right at the very beginning with Bill Reid's sculpture. And you brought forward the role of the raven. Who is that trickster archetype? So what could you tell us about the trickster archetype and what you see? Yes, we have a very funny way of thinking about power in Western thinking. Which is that, you know, it does the power over. And the raven's trickster, I mean the trickster is kind of a really interesting way of thinking about what has the power to make things happen and how things happen. And we have this idea that there's a kind of a straight line of logic of why anything is done. And I think that's why I gravitate so much to that raven character. And I think education is a trickster. And in order for education to be eccentric, it must be a trickster. Because it's not ours to know what is going to really happen. But yet we have a curiosity that we want to follow, that we can't help ourselves. Half the time that's the raven. He can't help himself. He's just too nosy. Yeah? That's why he opens the clam. And he sees the people and they don't want to know. And he's like, come out and play. The world is beautiful. I'll show you. And they're like, it's dark. We can't see anything. He goes up and steals the sun so that people can enjoy the world. He doesn't have a plan, like a strategic organizational vision of, you know, I'm going to open the world, let the people out, have to get the sun, and then sell us some stars and so, you know, and then they're only going to need skills and like training in the skills and they're going to need learning outcomes. He doesn't know any of that, right? And then he sees they need something because they're useless when they come out of the clam. So he's like, okay, you're going to need to use the salmon, guys. So yeah, and then they don't know what to do with the salmon because it goes off really quickly. So then he's like, okay, you need to take the wood and you need to smoke the salmon and dry the salmon. And here's how you do it. And yeah, and it's, and I think it speaks to us as educators because half the time we're just so curious to know what people are going to do with all that knowledge. And it's wonderful when we do find out occasionally. Anyway, look, more questions. There's one more question. Oh, no, sorry. Take two more. Mijalo Adi from NUIG. Sue, I thought that was really powerful. I was just wondering about the idea of the oppressor also as oppressed. And just if you could add a little bit more on that. I think it's pretty clear anyway, but I was just curious about how it may be tied in with Kate's. Well, I suppose it comes from living in Ireland.  And it just, it's kind of really bogus excuse because no, we're all in it. That's the point. So that's the point of oppression which people don't really always understand. And it's really the great learning that's in decolonial theory. Is that decolonial theory is about understanding all the sides. And it's that, it's the generous reading of decolonial theory and decolonial attitude, which is about a continuous present of struggling to make better that which was wounded and opened. So to me, that's what, you know, and to say, well, it's the oppressor's fault.  It doesn't help anybody. So it's that, it's that desire for overcoming and that being the basis of the struggle. And then the potential. So it's there in the works of Fanon. It's there in the works of Meme. It's there in the new works by Cervele and Lovogaccini. It's there in Shilman Bambis' work that he uses. It's, it's, that's the idea is that we're striving towards a common humanity that knows that it wasn't, that it was never whole in the first place, that brokenness exists in the world. And yet we, we want to use some of our educative purpose and some of our desire for common humanity to, to overcome those problems.  Okay. The successful project might be Gaggy Webster. You're not going to need a bigger budget. You're going to need... Be Gaggy Webster, Darker!


From Hollywood, it's time now for Johnny dollar George Reed. Ah, hey now listen George if Floyd's of England keeps handing me cases How can I work for the other insurance company? Well what I'm calling about this time isn't really a case So what as long as the company pays my expense account and maybe a nice little fee to boot? Sure, well, I'm not even certain. You'll need an expense account. Oh, then now wait a minute Johnny Johnny, I think you'd better come over here to my office so that we can talk about this Well, I don't want to sound chintzy George, but a cab to your place will cost me over a buck Good then as long as we've established the expense account for this thing whatever it is. I'll see you in a few minutes Well now there's no hurry Johnny, so just take your time. Huh? I said take your time about getting here Yeah, I'll be right over Bob Bailey in the intriguing adventures of a man with the action-packed expense account America's fabulous freelance insurance investigator is truly Johnny dollar and now act one of yours truly Johnny dollar Expense accounts submitted by special investigator Johnny dollar to Floyd's of England North American office Hartford, Connecticut Following is the kind of expenses incurred during my investigation of the cautious celibate matter Wait a minute over the phone George Reed did not tell me what he wanted before Also, he very plainly said not to hurry Item one a dollar twenty no make it a buck and a half for a taxi down to his office Okay, thanks I tried to tell you on the phone. There was no reason to rush over. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got the message George That's why I did rush. Oh Well, uh sit down sit down sure Cigarette no, no, thanks. I'll smoke one of my own. Oh, sure Let me give you a lot this thing just this morning here. Give it to me. Oh, that's all right. I'm sure I can Make it work What is this George? I'm kind of a stall Here giving me but well flick it hard. Yeah. Oh, what's on your mind? Well, um, you got back from that assignment out in Oklahoma sooner than I expected from that town with the unlikely name of Bums Bung well, it's really the name of Durango Laramie del Hearts Ranch Tracy. Oh, give it. I like it Bums Bung Now what can a name like that possibly mean? Are you kidding? It's only yourself the other day just before I went out there. Oh, did I? Well, of course you did It's an old Indian name means bum means bad spring bad water.  Didn't you read the report I handed in with my expense account? Well, I sort of glanced over it But you're coming back so soon with Durango's pretty knees out there Carol del heart. Oh What about Carol didn't I kind of get the impression that Durango would like to have you marry her? Well, you should every time I get within spitting distance of Oklahoma. I expect them to shove a shotgun at my back and Well, that's why I left there in such a hurry. Oh, sure right after settling that insurance matter Only it was for Durango's old pal Sidewinder Wilson another carry. Yes, Durango was here in Hartford, but Carol was there wasn't she? Yeah, she certainly was and George I'd love to have stuck around a while, you know to be with her When I got word that Durango was about to get back there and that he was bringing along a preacher Oh brother, I took off why John why let's face it George. I'm afraid I'm a confirmed celibate Well, at least you say you are but uh, aren't you rather fond of Carol del? Well, I've told you she's a living doll She's tall dark and very beautiful She's intelligent. She has a lot of spark here a lot of spunk too and a wonderful sense of humor No, huh? Yeah, and I've put it bluntly Carol has everything everything a man could possibly want And George when I take that gal in my arms Why don't you marry Johnny confirm bachelor, right? If you don't sound like it. No, sometimes when I think about her, I don't feel like it. Well, then no, no Let's stop talking about it. Why because George? I'm not marrying not Carol or anyone else at least Right now someday perhaps not now best years of your life Johnny and with someone like her George I've made up my mind about this whole thing and that's that yes But I'll bet if she would have walked in here I said cut it out Please and listen what difference does it make to you? What business is it of yours? Well, of course it wouldn't hurt me a bit from the standpoint of client relationship Huh, and after all Durango is a mighty good client You mean to say you've been giving me this this this big marriage build-up just George so help me I ought to ring your neck. Oh, well now Johnny, but come on now. You've been stalling around long enough Yes stalling now. What did you want to see me about? Well, actually it's about Durango Johnny He um he asked me to have you come here what for and to keep you here what yes until he can arrive You mean Durango's on his way here Well, he thought of asking you to fly out to Bums Bung again, but he was afraid you wouldn't George can't you see what this means? Can't you see why he's coming here and probably with that shotgun I mentioned now Johnny? No, sir George when old Durango gets here you tell him Huh Durango wait the fire escape. What did you say Johnny wait? No, wait listen Durango, hi there George. Where's he at the window? You mean when out to win this? Oh act two of yours truly Johnny dollar and the cautious celibate matter Needless to say when that wild old caricature And I didn't stick around to see how he was going to square himself with the police Because before I could even reach the nearest corner a couple of prowl cars pull up in front of Floyd's of England and outpiled half a dozen cops all pulling their guns No, sir. I grabbed a taxi that's item two and it comes to five dollars even for the fastest ride I could get to my apartment Because Durango's presence in Hartford can meet only one thing. Yes, sir He was still obsessed with the idea that I should marry his niece Carol Delhart Sure, I care a lot for Carol. Maybe even lover. I don't know and I know that she likes me likes me a lot But I also know that neither of us is going to be railroad and into marriage by old Durango Yet there couldn't be any other reason for his coming here So I dragged out a couple of handbags and proceeded to pack them packed them well Then item three another dime for a phone call So what happened George the cops haul him off and throw him into the clink Durango who else Johnny this man is unbelievable It's fantastic. Huh? I don't know how he worked it how much it cost him And of course as always he came here loaded with money thousands Johnny. Yeah, well, but the police didn't even take those six guns away from him Oh brother all the more reason why I'm getting out of here Yes, Durango still thinks he's living in the old days of the wild and woolly west when the only you bet your life I am and I'm putting all the costs of transportation on expense account After all it was you who got me into this whole thing What do you think I tell you you're in co-hosts with this wild old man this trying to get me to marry his niece So what do you think we want him to force us into it? Come on George. I'm in a hurry. That's right, but not for any longer than Why do you ask that George item four is a hundred forty six eighty five ticket to Los Angeles It's on my American Express credit card, but believe me brother. I'm collecting from you You may have to pay for a lot of travel before I'm through with this thing Stewardess Mr.. Bailey this Johnny dollar you're asking for a friend of mine. I guess he missed the flight. Yes, I guess he must have anything Important for just a radio message Well, as I say I'm a good friend of his so why don't you let me see that message and perhaps I can Well, you know, oh no, sir. I'm terribly sorry, but that would be against regulation. Well, what if it's anything? I'm sorry, but thank you just the same Fasten your seat. Yeah, sure When we landed in Chicago I was tempted to grab a telephone called George Reed and ask him if Durango had given up the chase Or I knew that by now George must have realized he'd have to be on my side in this whole silly business But during the stopover I didn't even risk leaving the plane Finally we took off again, and I managed to sleep for a while But all I could dream about was Durango chasing me Through streets and alleys across the planes on foot on horseback in a car a boat of train And all the time firing those handguns at me wild fantastic dreams By the time we got to Los Angeles. I was a physical metal wreck But I knew that for the time being at least I was clear at Durango So after picking up my bags I elbowed my way through the crowd at the taxi stand. Pardon me, ma'am. Sorry. Thank you Taxi taxi Hey, hey, hey taxi. Hey, you ought to talk one of them new jet flights like I done Durango But I got your I finally catched up with you didn't I yeah, I guess you did You're the slippery as young Maverick. I ever did see Nice yourself up in this here now fancy limousine that I hired for Okay, Durango, what up, huh? What's the matter look that man where the other side of your car hasn't got a gun there Well, I have so often find out you wait here Johnny bags and tore back onto the passenger ramp By jumping over a fence I was able to climb on board an airliner that was about to leave My flashing my credentials at the stewardess. I kept her from throwing me off and in a couple of minutes We were in the air Yes, sir and headed for Portland, Oregon the plane ferries item five fifty six twenty and to prove I'm not kidding about the company paying my expenses on this wild trip Item six is four hundred and a quarter for my two leather handbags and all the clothes I'd packed in So what happened at Portland? You won't believe it But Durango was there and waiting for me Sure, he chartered a plane and because of the stops at my flight made along the way he got there first But I saw him in time By jumping another fence and doing a hundred yards and something like nine seconds flat I managed to find a taxi stand item seven thirty five dollars for a while ride through the streets of Portland because I knew that somewhere And back of us Durango was in hot pursuit We finally ended up at a private airstrip out north of town I'd have made 200 bucks for the plane I chartered and I told the pilot just to go go anywhere But according to regulations he had to report his course in destination So I knew that sooner or later Durango who's nobody's fool and more important with all his money would be on my tail again I racked my brain trying to figure out some way trying to think of someone who could possibly Yeah Some one and then it occurred to me. There was some one. Sure The one person in the world was in the same spot. I was Sure, it could be like walking into a lion's den But I have nine a total of a hundred fourteen dollars playing bus train and rental car first to win at Oklahoma Then north to the broken down little ranch at Bum Spa Yep, Carol was there That lovely Lovin Carol. Well, I love it honey. You'd know it But listen has Durango been here. Oh Johnny, I don't know where that old goot went. Yeah, well, I do. We went to Hartford Hartford Hartford gunning for me that crazy old man is so set on having us get married Carol He is but to go all the way to Now that's just carrying things too far. Yeah, I think so too I mean he thinks that by waving of six gun around Listen Johnny dollar. I'm real gone on you. You know that Yeah, I think you know how I feel about you. That doesn't mean that just because old Rango wants it that way We've got to get hitched up together. No, at least At least not right away. So if he thinks he can shotgun you and me and Come on back to you Carol. So now we really Know Durango No, no, at least well not now and in spite of the way you've chased me all the way across the country Yes, Durango. Well, sure. I chased you but not on account of Carol Johnny Well, sure sure. I hope all the time at some time you and her to get married up together But I give up crying to force you kids do Well, I just figure when you're ready. Well, then you will Going to Hartford and chasing me that way, huh? Oh You was out here last week and you kept my old pal sidewinder Wilson from getting murdered You know sidewinder smallest pal Johnny my best friend Yeah, that's true John and when you passed on the word that he was the one that found out about that killer Well, it wasn't well Johnny. Well, you know now. He's he's the new chief of police down there for our weather Yeah, well bully for him, but I still don't so you you being so good to him. I I just wanted you to know I appreciate it went to Hartford for wish to Give you this sample moves a bit dirty crumpled up and he got some When I counted right there ought to be ten thousand dollars There you are Gee Durango Durango, I Well, I don't know what to say you don't have to say nothing Johnny. Just enjoy it But are you sure you wouldn't like me to have it if the preacher come up from Enid and I guess not God bless you anyhow boy This time I did stay over for a couple of days Yeah, and if I ever do take the leap the expense account Well, George, I'll still argue with you about it, but that's all and the total $1,053.45 Yours truly Johnny dollar here's our star to tell you about next week story next week a string of hold-ups and behind them all is Well, why don't you listen find out for yourself? Join us? Won't you yours truly Johnny dollar Johnny dollar starring Bob Bailey? Originates in Hollywood and is written produced and directed by Jack Johnstone Heard in our cast were Virginia Greg Jean Tatum John McIntyre and G Stanley Jones Be sure to join us next week same time and station for another exciting story of yours truly Johnny dollar this is Dan coverley speaking See how he runs on suspense is next on the CVS radio network


Talk a little bit more about the quarter from Otto. Bruce, nice to see you, you know, just to pick up on what we're just talking about with Afria. You guys have been a highly acquisitive company. That company now looking to make some changes on the corporate governance side because there's a lot of activity, very quick changes and they want to make sure that everything they do is correct and that the right governance is in place. Have you guys had your own conversations around those kind of issues as well? Yeah, I can't comment on where they are but like simple things in our spot from day one. If you're working for me or anybody reporting to me or reporting to those people, you can't buy stocks in companies in the sector. Can't. And the reason is what if we want to buy that company, it looks like we're self-dealing and what if we actually want to run them over, maybe you're biased about running them over. And so we just kept it clean from day one. And I think when you're doing transactions in our space, there's a lot more things that sound good than are actually good. So due diligence is an internal full-time gig. We have probably four people who do nothing but look at things all the time. And if you're out in the network long enough, you actually know every player and what's going on. And so there's nothing for us to buy in Canada. There are things that we picked up in Colorado like Abu or Germany like Sturz and Bickel. But you know, you can't clean up. You just have to stay on the right track from day one. And so that's interesting. So is it any employee or only those at the management and board level that are not allowed to have holdings in any other marijuana company? And how long has that policy been in place? I think I've said no to a thousand deals since I started this thing. And all the people like Tim and Mark who report to me and the folks who tie into them, it's just, it's understood, guys, this is not, you can't appear or in fact be self-dealing. And that's been since day one. And guess what? The number of deals that come through every week that say, you know, we'd almost give you the stock so we could put your name on it are quite significant.  But it's allowed us to stay focused and clean. So you are clearly indicating there are more acquisitions on the way. That was one of the takeaways from what you talked about with analysts. And you've been very clear in interviews on this network, you just alluded to it again, that you're not really looking to do transformational deals here in Canada. Bruce, give us a sense on what you're going to be doing over the course of 2019.  Yeah. So in Canada, we have about 6 million square feet of greenhouse and or indoor production. So lots of stuff to grow. We have a platform for extracting the ingredients out. And we've built our own platforms for making everything from chocolate to bottle beverages. So I don't need a partner. And what a partner means in business usually is somebody who takes half the margin and necessarily doesn't do half the work. So we're not looking for that. But when you go globally, there's a big pharmaceutical opportunities we're always looking at. Is there pharmaceutical element to a company that could spin out? Or is there a company that was wrong in their sort of molecule strategy and need to start aiming at our stuff? There's a whole bunch of greenhouse platforms in different countries to buy and build. But really what we're now doing is international. So we're you know, our next big wave is hemp in the US. And that means building out things that start looking like what was the Hershey factory in Smith Falls, there's a whole bunch of infrastructure in different US states that becomes filled with us. And so you're going to see us ever more global and probably in about a year when I talk to you'll say, you know, this great company that is a globally driven revenue source happens to be headquartered in Canada, because that's kind of how it's evolving. But you make an interesting point because you're in so many different types of business lines, whether it's hemp, you're working on experiments for animal based applications of CBD, you've got recreational and you've got medical.  And then the company kind of focuses up on that market? Or is there a true benefit to being spread kind of everywhere that marijuana can go? That seems to be where you're going. Does that, you know, perhaps cause the risk or lead to the risk of being spread too thin and not being focused enough? Yeah, so we have kind of four structured steps in our business. The first is what everybody talks about, but it's actually going to become the least exciting, which is how do you produce the ingredients, meaning how do you grow cannabis or how do you synthetically convert it? But those are ingredients. And there are hundreds, or more than 100 ingredients in a cannabis plant, then there's a process of getting those ingredients out so you can keep them separate and do the next thing, which is how do we mix them back together to create medical outcomes or health and wellness for veterinary products? That's all the science. And then you take all that learning, you say, how do I make really great beverages? We use the science from that and then the marketing and branding. So it's more like a vertical staff stack that over time has a whole bunch of intellectual property and the markets we go to are the ones which federally permit those activities. So in Germany, there's no party, but there's a lot of patients. In Canada, there's becoming a pretty good party with a lot of patients. And well, you could say, well, do less. But the end game then is to be not significant. And right now we've structured ourselves, we're in every country, we have great leaders in every line of product, we have focused people. And so it's a matrix management, which enables me to do virtually nothing, because there are competent people doing everything. That combination works very well. Let's talk a little bit more about how you're financing your future.  It was difficult to get your hands on capital from big institutions here in Canada. Now you've got a lot more say on what you ultimately do. As you do deals or do anything to grow the business, are you looking to the the equity market? Are you looking to to the bond market? Are you going to take out any any loans? I mean, just give us a sense on your financial plans going forward from that perspective. Well, it's a good question. So we now have a thing called Treasury Department because we have about $5 billion. And so we have that cash distributed over, I think five of the big banks in Canada and a few in the US. So now we have cash, and now we have a very valuable currency in our stock. And so when we go to do things, if we're building something, we have to use cash. When we're buying things, we try to use cash. And often people want shares to end up with a blend. But now what starts to happen is very sophisticated financial groups come to you and say you have three or two and a half billion dollars of real estate and tangible assets. Would you like us to give you money back for that? So we start having interesting discussions in all of the fields. But when shareholders look at us now, we have, I don't know, it adds up to almost 20 bucks a share cash. And so the effect of that is we have a lot of options and they don't look kind of like they did when I first talked to you guys, which I think I have my hat out usually saying, and anybody listening, if you want to invest, call me. That's evolved slightly. So that means you could potentially go and tap the debt markets for and start issuing bonds that would, you know, is that something you're considering first? And would that go towards your initiative of trying to get a stronger institutional base of investors? Yeah, so we did in June a convertible venture that was about 94, 95% placed outside of Canada with big institutions. And so the next thing that would make sense over a course of time, if and when we need it would be for sure, just a straight bond. But this is kind of interesting right now, we're talking about a Canadian started Canadian headquarter cannabis company that's now looking at bond quality investing. And that makes us a very different company in the sector and that we're an investment and people will invest. And there are other places you might place a bet, but those are bets. And so it's, it's kind of good to be the quality. They talked about what your credit rating could potentially be you talk about quality with the investment grade. Well, you know, it's funny because Canada, I think we're going to establish as an excellent business and we'll be able to report on that as the year rolls out. Here's what's happening in Canada and if you normalize the spend meaning if we have 50 researchers working on stuff for the globe, you don't put all that cost against Canada, you put a proportion. I bet by the end of the year, this looks like a terrific business. And people are going to have a choice. Do they want to see us repeat this around the world? Because that's what we're going to do. Or do they want to dividend? And on that occasion, they may choose to sell my stock and buy bank because we're not here to hand out dividends. We're here to create a dominant platform for the next five years. So, you know, I'm reminded of some comments. Terry Booth, the rural CEO said this week when he said I lose sleep over the ability to supply the global market. I'm curious what you're losing sleep over. And also the losses, Bruce, a lot of people pointing to how much the company is losing as part of this growth plan right now. What should we be thinking about when it comes to what those losses are going to look like in the foreseeable future? Yeah, so three things. We're doing a sleep trial phase two B, which means humans using canopies products to sleep the spectrum brand. So I hope that gets the results we expect by the end of Q4, because then I can actually help the other people in the sector sleep they'll fail to buy our product. But what losses right now are associated with operating in Canada and finishing the construction and implementation and operation of about six million square feet, most of which has been completed and is just turning up with pilot growth. So as we finish the next quarter or two, what we're doing are running things that are causing our losses now to produce all the inputs so that when the new regs, which will affect in Q4 come out for beverages and edibles, that whole platform will be running, which means we'll have a lot of product that people can buy. And I think that will look terrific where I think the stress should be for all of us in the sector is the regulations for Canada and the world have to keep rolling out because we can't exercise our business until there are rules. And the place just south of us is almost at the spot where I think they're gonna have rules that let us enter more than hemp. And so it's the if when and how quickly can we jump. And so we spend a lot of time focusing on the U.S. and global opportunities. I think Canada's going to turn out to be a very good business run by very competent people as a division of our enterprise. Bruce, I just want to expand on something you said there as investors look to the path to profitability. So find your losses are growing right now and the market doesn't seem to care about that. But they want to see a path to profitability in this quarter. You saw your costs increase and the prices that you were selling your marijuana for in the recreational market are sorry overall lower. So are you telling me that those are the dynamics going forward but it's going to be offset by new initiatives whether it's in privileges or those third and fourth other initiatives that you're trying to do or that those dynamics that higher costs and lower selling price itself are going to change and lead to a path to profitability. Yes or actual Canadian cost. Suppose you have a greenhouse maybe the three million square feet. You don't put it all in play at once. What you do is you keep doing it maybe 300,000 square feet at a time. But what we have is all of the operating costs of.