Yeah, all right. I have started the recording and we can get going Okay Good morning. Good evening. Good afternoon everyone We just flashed by our weekly reminder on the any trust guidelines so on today's agenda, oh My god, we're creating our mailing list that should be fun Hopefully that will work smoothly Do you know when that's going to happen Todd is that just going to be No change to the actual URLs for the mailing list So slight change it will still be list hyper ledger org We're moving everything over to groups.io For Linux Foundation, all the projects are moving over. They've already moved quite a few of the projects that we host Okay, so simplified the process and smoothed a lot of that stuff out This is kind of the pre FYI for that. We'd be looking at doing this in about two weeks. Oh So at that point we'll give just further details on the mechanics This will provide a lot better functionality and ease of managing subscriptions and all of that So it's a really really solid Think towards Somebody was asking me the other day about the the sawtooth mail list was originally set up as STL when it was sawtooth lake I wonder if this might be a good time to migrate that name to sawtooth and whether we could have the the old Name redirect to to a new name at the same time Yeah, I believe that should be fine Let me just confirm on that but we would also be looking at just kind of doing a quick audit If there's any other mailing lists that may not make sense to have any more that haven't been used, you know in two plus years, so I'll take a note on that and See if we can make that happen. Also just Well, I guess we could take this offline, but maybe we could also have shorter Instead of hyper ledger dash Everything since it is at hyper ledger, you know list of hyper ledger org. Yep. You just you know fabric sawtooth borough And we could alias so that they both work for a period Just a thought anyway First planning And then we have Dave Huesby who's been put off for now like three or four weeks in a row So he'll be first up after the reminder of the hackfest planning. Yay the bug bounty We have to finish up the template for standardizing and launching new working groups And so we'll pick up where we left off in that discussion last week. Oh We have a request for hyper ledger composer to go to 1.0 But I don't think anybody's on yet has anybody joined to To Represent composer. I'm trying to find somebody Yeah, if we do find somebody then we'll have that if we don't and we'll do that next week, but I would Encourage people to review the request if they haven't already done so And again, that's going to you know be You know guided given the the agreement we had last week on Getting a review for 1.0 Before you're active and so forth Quarterly project updates. Pardon me I will do mine for fabric this week and next week is Dan for sawtooth or maybe somebody else, but Love to throw that on somebody else. I tried that Okay Quarterly working group updates we have Performance of scale and I did see mark on so I think we're good to go for that right mark Yes, should be awesome. So any other topics for the agenda? Okay, Todd you want to kick it off with hackfest planning sure thing and just really quickly we are at quorum now So on the hackfest side again, the Amsterdam information is there and in the agenda that went out The other topic was the fall hackfest We put out two potential dates to piggyback on various conferences one in August piggybacking on open source summit North America and Vancouver The other being on the back end of the hyper ledger member summit Quite a few people responded to this it does seem like the preference is to tack this on to hyper ledger member summit So that would put this October 3rd and 4th in Montreal And it seemed like a lot of the the key players that come to our hackfest Are interested in that date and then tacking that on to an event where we have, you know, 230 plus member companies Likely to be there probably a good way to get some engagement. So Call for any questions concerns or otherwise we can likely just move forward with that so we're gonna go with the October one That's what it looks like from the doodle poll. I just wanted to check with this group one final time. However, yeah, I That works for me Cool. Any any concerns from anyone? Yeah Hearing none sounds like October after the member summit or before is is it excellent? Sounds good. Thank you Dave on to you Dave you're up. Yes No, no, no, no, I have to put you next week You're killing me All right, so I'll make this really brief Um, I know that it's not widely known because it's been public Or sorry, it's been private up until now the TSC themselves are aware of this, but We have been running a private bug bounty through the hacker one platform for the last six months Currently it's just the fabric project but we're now that sawtooth is 1.0 and and You know quote-unquote production ready. We're gonna move to have it included in the bug bounty as well I Wanted to come to the TSC to get approval to take our bug bounty public we Ran a private bug bounty and got some traffic, but I think it will serve us better to open it up to a broader audience Mostly because this Bitcoin technology or Bitcoin blockchain technology Shame on me blockchain technology is still very new to most people and so we were getting a pretty limited reach inside of hacker ones list of Security analysts and so I think the best way for us to get more eyeballs on the code trying to poke holes in it would be to to Open it up to the public. I think the proposed well known The proposed plan is that Marta and I would announce That we're opening it up to the public during our RSA talk in a week or so and we would still continue to use the hacker one platform for receiving reports and handling them confidentially and Disclosing them and handling the payouts of the bounties and I think the Will make a small adjustment to the bounty payouts downward just because there might be huge influx of Participants and it's to protect our existing bug bounty funds But we'll quickly ramp them up if we're not getting any interest. I'm not going to give any details on numbers We can talk about privately But yeah, I Any questions if you guys approve it, you know, I'd love to move forward with it. I was just curious. Have we Has anyone found any yet? I mean The answer to that is no. We've had some reports about hyper ledger web properties From lots of some lots of those. Yeah, but Nobody has really dug their teeth into the underlying blockchain code and so I was you know, we tried everything we Did a bunch of internal marketing to their Hacker group we tried doing like lowering the barrier to entry offering to do intro sessions with them and Just nothing. It was crickets. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think a lot of that is actually due to the fact that most of the hackers toolkits are really oriented towards Breaking into typical web-based applications. Yeah for sure. So I mean that's that's what they have in their tool belt and They don't have a whole lot around blockchain and GRPC and all the other stuff. So yeah, yeah Our security auditor that's been doing all our security audits had to spend time building a tool kit to try to penetrate those API and points Yeah, we have the same with What we do is a coal fire Okay All right, any direction any quick any further questions besides mark any objections hearing none Going once going twice sold. Yay Cool, this is important. This is a big step in our security Yep. Good. All right. Thank you. All right. Thanks, Dave Next up is to Bring back the discussion on the working group proposal Brian and Tracy do you want to pick up where we left off? Sure. So and looking at kind of the the main concerns that exist on the Process it seems like the the biggest concern that people have is really around Elections as a topic of Conversation so we had suggested in here that Elections would happen for an initial chair within the first three months and then every year after that so Opening it up for discussion on that topic over rocket check And and yeah, I I know it'd be simpler if the TSC just appointed heads I think an election can be done very quickly and is a great way to kind of get the the the working group to Make its first important decision as a working group and and bootstrap and and have a sense of ownership by the working group and and I think if there's ever a lack of either candidates or if the Outcome feels weird, you know the TSC can always You know do take take a corrective action of some sort But I think I think having the having an election is a good way for the working group to feel invested in In the in the process and in the outcomes and yes, it can be gamed and yes We should talk about, you know who can vote and that sort of thing But I had steady stayed in for the vast majority of you know how we view these working groups working where it's amongst people who Have met have known each other. I think with a few tweaks To the election process. We can keep it from being coming a overly politicized kind of thing And generally as I said in the last call, you know the working group chair is not just an honorific kind of title It's actually gonna be required to do stuff so It'll be you know, it'll be something people if somebody wants to compete to be the working group chair More power to them in a way. I mean, it's a it's not a it's not a free ride You know, what do people think? I mean, you know today, we've basically been using the TSC is the as the body that's choosing working group chairs What what's the What's the real threat or what's the real downside if working group election is gained? I mean, it's a working group, right? They're not making serious decisions about the direction of the project I mean potentially. Yeah, they definitely I mean, I think that You know, certainly, I mean if I look to you know, let's just take you know For a few examples, right the white paper working group an excellent job. They publish papers on behalf of the TSC and and the organization generally that's pretty important stuff the The architecture working group is also, you know Publishing documents that, you know, I think have a bit of relevance the performance and scaling working group is also on that same course. So yeah, they're I think working groups are equally as important as as projects. They're a little bit different though and that we need somebody to sort of catford and Now again from an industry perspective, you know, maybe that's a little bit different but Certainly, I mean, are we saying now that? You know, somebody could come along and and bump rom from chairing the architecture working group by gaming the system I don't like that. I don't think that's appropriate or fair at all All right, I see that perspective. Just plain devil's advocate. I was just wondering Yeah, I mean I guess I would also add to this that when we have a working group chair that disappears Or can't continue to engage the idea that the group feels empowered meaning they elected the chair and they can they feel like They can propose what will happen next. I think will help Keep those groups making steady progress Right, but I think that the membership changes, right, but I think that again We have the concept of what is the working group, right? And if the working group is just the people that are if the bar to be a member a voting member of the working group Is to subscribe to a mailing list that's too low It's just too low. I Think I agree with that. I mean, it's I Think there are definitely some working groups that have a risk of being politicized like the performance and scaling working group definitely comes to mind Yeah, so I'm I'm really uncomfortable with just mailing list It's the bar Brian I just One one suggested hack to that was you know people who are subscribers as of you know, like a month before the election That's not so hackable. I mean again It's a lot more subscribing to a mailing. This is not a bar. It is not there's no participation involved You know we we have We have a process whereby the chair of a working group is Basically tracking, you know, who's been an active contributor active participant in a working group and you know, we've asked them to track that so that for the annual elections We can add those names to the list of Active contributors to the technical work Well, this is actually part of the difficulty right because we don't have any way of tracking participation beyond the working group chair Right, but if they're maintaining that as I think certainly some of them certainly are Then we have a list in the wiki of who's a member if you will who's an active participant I can appreciate that that might be the list of people who can vote But if you're not an active participant, why are you getting a vote? This doesn't make any sense to me All of the meetings that were they were participating in are taking minutes all the working. Yeah, they're taking minutes with a list of attendees That are showing up for the working group that that's a substantially higher bar than Than just the mailing list, right? I totally agree with that Mike So you could make it put people who participate in the the the calls Yes Those who are going to be in the vote, you know, I mean again We're accumulating but the working group chairs are figuring out who's an active participant So that we can augment the commit totals and so forth to indicate which working group participants are eligible to vote in For the TSC Yeah, I was gonna ask does it I think it should be in that same set and I guess, you know Well, so so that would be that's that's a that's perhaps an easy way out rather than mailing list participants You could have the people who are showing up to the regularly scheduled calls. Yes Okay. Yeah, I agree with that. I Like that. I think that's the best we have so far I don't know I mean Yeah, so No, I was just saying showing up is An easy thing to write like I dial in and that's it So I I mean, I'm perfectly fine with it But I don't think it solves the problem that is attempting to be solved here Which is people subscribing to the mailing list But what you know, that's that's a possible concern that people should think about and I I also think That leaving it up to the hands of the the chair as to Selecting who has participated enough is very subjective as well. So I wouldn't suggest going that direction either So we've for the TSC elections, right? We've basically been saying the chair writes down Basically, we've been doing what the last thing Tracy said is the chair writes down the people that they viewed as active Participants, but people that feel like they've been active participants can You know, like send an email to the I think I forget who it was But they could send an email and say hey, you know, I was an active participant Please, you know add me so it's something like this work where if the chair wrote a list of names down and then people that Thought people that thought they were left off could basically email the TSC or email someone and say hey I got left off So before we drive further into who should vote I want to ask again Do we even need an election system at all? I mean, what problem are we trying to solve today? I mean the whole thing came about Okay, we need a bit more for Formal process for people to propose a new working group, which I think is fine But now we are getting into a whole process discussion which quite frankly I don't think has been a problem to date. We have several working groups that are in existence They all have chairs somehow they got there with the provol of the TSC But you know, I don't know that we need to get into this whole process of an election every year on top of it The goal for this wasn't to Make any changes to existing working groups. I have my I would imagine the existing ones would be grandfather They wanted to use the new process great The point here is there are a bunch of new groups that we'd like to propose the people have been coming to us to Ask to be created that our industry specific ones kind of modeled after the health care working group and I was concerned at least about burdening the TSC with having to Sort through names of people that didn't know or processes They weren't engaged in to to make a decision that could also be at risk of being politicized, right? And to try to drive amongst the working groups like to make their first meaningful decision amongst themselves And to decentralize a fair bit too because I worry the TSC is Very hands-on with each of these working groups that it'll feel overwhelmed There's still be reporting that still be in accountability from these working groups to the TSC It was just a desire to try to you know, keep the burden upon the TSC lightweight. So Yeah, I can appreciate that but to Arnaud's point we haven't had a problem to date right people You know that the process is generally for working groups has generally been somebody gets a be in there bonnet and thinks that you know, there's a need for driving a working group and That individual typically Gathers additional support for the idea brings it forward Makes a proposal they get to be chair and You know, we've had a couple of cases where That the chair sort of drifts away and and things start going fallow and and then we come back to the TSC and somebody says hey, I want to Take over the reins and it's it's worked out Yeah, that's very much what I feel as well and you know, quite frankly, I'm grateful to the people who are volunteering to be chair Yeah, absolutely. We really have a problem of people competing for the seats So I don't So I don't post to the whole election thing. I just feel like we're overshooting something All right, well, you know, we'd like to move forward with a proposal and start creating Getting some new proposals for working groups in and in front of the TSC. So yeah the consensus of the broad TSC and not just the two a few people speaking that They want to be able to to appoint and have the responsibility for The the chairs the working groups then I'd rather move forward on this than get hung up on it. So let's do that Yeah, and with that I had to making sure that we got all the right perspectives Are are there any participants on from the working groups that feel that There's some improvement that could be made on on how the the chair was uh selected That's an awkward question to come out and say that you hate the chair of the working group that you're participating in but As it isn't it more likely that the chair is kind of the sacrificial lamb that gets all the responsibility and you know None of the glory Yeah They should have badges, right? Yeah, you know, I kind of like I I agree with with mick there because you know, I participate in In architecture working groups since day one and I remember the first Community meeting in new jersey that ram approached me and say, you know, we need something like this and and we agreed and Ram been serving as the chair since then I haven't seen anyone volunteer to say, you know I will help ram to take over this for a while But you know, I have to say, you know kudo to him that been doing this for more than two years Um, and it's been working fine. They've been stepped in for christopher and Been doing a great job ever since yeah, I mean, I think you know, again, I think it it basically works brian Um Yeah, and I agree with that statement that it's been working fairly well I think that the election would actually be more likely to be perceived as a way out or a way of Taking turns being the sacrificial lamb Without elections, I think something that does happen is um Others in the group are happy to let the the other guy take a bullet for the team on a perpetual basis Uh, I guess I'm also responding to you know, when we launched the health care working group. We appointed um three chairs um who had volunteered to us to do it and There seemed to be a lot of pushback on that that list from people who said well, who are these people who got who appointed them boss? Uh, and you know and that that surprised us a bit too, but then we said, okay. Well, sure. Let's let's do an election there. Um, and uh, uh You know that that Maybe we over responded to um to to a few squeaky wheels, but but that was uh, and that wasn't the tsc That was that was um hyper ledger staff. So maybe that was our mistake in in being the ones to to set that up and appoint them Um, uh, rather than coming to the tsc Uh, but uh, I think the there's a there's the burden of politic politicization politicization um somewhere and if the tsc wants to bear that burden And it's worked fine so far. Uh, it hasn't been highly politicized yet. Um, uh, but uh, uh, I just worry about you know Decentralization I guess so all right I've said my piece we'll adjust this to be to to to hold off on any any election process for now And just make it appointed by the tsc. It'd just be nice to have some way of making sure that you know There's some check that the tsc Thinks about its responsibility to either, you know, rotate that chair or be a check on that, you know abusive power Not that there's much really. I don't think there's been much abusive power certainly No, no, and again, this is not a comment on the existing working groups This is an anticipation of bringing a new set of working groups in that are not technology related You know that are related to the adoption of this technology by different sectors And so the participants are going to be very different kinds of participants on those working groups Um, and they'll I don't know they might want to work Yeah, I think again we have now we have the working group reviews and Um, you know, I think we'll find out pretty quick if a chair isn't Being effective in in leading their group and that'll offer open opportunity for the tsc to maybe put out a call for People to you know to to fill the the gap if that's interesting to them Um, I would like to point out just that You know, if the if the chair isn't doing their job in a way, that's conducive to helping other people come into the community Uh, then it is possible that you end up with a Very select set of people who are participating in working groups even though there's others who would have liked to have joined Right, so I think you have to be careful in in whether or not something looks healthy But is truly not healthy And and making sure that you're truly aware of what's going on Behind the scenes which adds an additional level of burden. I think to the whoever decides to to govern these Well, so, okay, I think just to try to wrap this up. I guess Brian, I think I heard you say let's move forward with, you know, having the tsc essentially um ratify the proposed chair in a in a proposal and And and leave it at that I guess so yep and and at its leisure it could appoint a new chair. Sure. Yeah Okay All right, we'll go back to anybody have concerns with that No, but to the the comments about these upcoming working groups being maybe different from the other ones and the observation that we now have um, these these periodic updates to the tsc. I think that that's been effective from my perspective to I do as well. And I think that again, it's It's on us as the tsc to make sure that we're asking the right questions so that we don't have a pardon me A situation where a working group seems productive or active, but isn't really Yeah To that end. So I added a sentence up on a working products Underneath the working group application. I didn't Put much much time in a wordsmithing. I just typed it up now, but the intent there is just uh to be clear on What is it that we're expecting from the working group and then when the working group does come On those quarterly updates Is there something objective for us to be able to assess their progress with? I think I think the report back is the source of objectivity Where where you check that Yeah, but it's it's I guess what I'm just trying to have a little bit of discussion on to make sure that that we all have Similar or non conflicting views is what is the You know, what's what's the point of having the working group? When a working group comes in it's easiest for for me if I'm Overseeing some activity like that to know what the objectives are For that activity. So if if those are stated fairly clearly up front in the charter of the project They can always be added to or amended but I think sometimes we've we've seen working groups that are like discussion groups And it's it's harder for them to have forward progress because they don't have an objective that they're working to So I just wanted to Call that out for for that's my view in in assessing the working group and see if there's conflicting views of that Or whether that needs to be articulated more clearly in this template Any other comments if not, I think we should take it to a vote to to brian's point to well, I guess I guess, you know We should come back with a draft that removes the elections piece and just see so that changes other pieces I guess the other question I'd ask is if there's any other parts of the proposal that People wanted to with their open questions for or We needed to close and tracy. I don't know if your sense was that the elections piece might have been the only open remaining piece It seemed like that was the biggest Um concern that people had when I looked at the the comments brian the rest seemed pretty Straightforward that we could resolve them. I think the only other one that Um, somebody brought up was the agendas, but I personally wouldn't change Requiring agendas for our working groups So, um, but I guess I should not make decisions So Yeah, this is a tsc's call So, yeah, so I brought up the agenda thing in the canceling the meeting 24 hours in advance Given that we don't cancel tsc meetings 24 hours in advance. It's probably unreasonable to require working groups to cancel 24 hours in advance Uh, particularly when you get emails from people that I before a morning meeting being like, oh, hey, you know You know me and these five other people are at this conference. Sorry We can't make the meeting uh So I propose we scrap the 24 hour rule I I think is a matter of just being considerate to everybody that it's good to have that as a Stated intent Well, I mean, it's a great stated intent, but it's just never it never happens in practice not even Stated intent is one thing requirement or mandate is a totally different thing I agree Change please to please try to So I I suggest we move on, uh, I mean, I I agree But since this is going to come back next week Okay, well, um, we will I can change please to please try to uh and to try to get and keep that nudge in there But not make it a mandatory thing, you know, um I and I just wanted to make sure we could have a fast process on the next call And just say okay, you know, here's all the changes and let's let's uh prove it that call. Yep Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you all. All right. Thanks. Thanks Brian and Tracy Okay, next up is Uh agenda Where's the composer if uh composers up? Yes. Sorry. I couldn't see the agenda. So I think dawn is on Yep. Hey, can you hear me? Okay? I can Great. Hey, everyone. I'm Don Tebow. I'm one of the offering managers on the IBM blockchain team Um, I'll assume that everybody is familiar with hyper ledger composer and saw at least the Uh request Simon sent out to the listserv and I just posted the link to that in the chat um The net of it is that we'd like to move this latest release of composer version 0.19 Uh to being version 1.0 Um, and then also as well discuss the potential moon from incubation to active Uh, so as Simon outlined in his note, we feel we've met the majority of the requirements saved for one Uh, so I'll just go straight to that that one in question around community support Um, so today we have three maintainers Simon and caroline obviously from IBM As well as dan salman from clause Uh, we've seen strong community engagement for example, you know Over 20 000 downloads of the visual studio extension Uh engagement on rocket chat and stack overflow As well as the use of composer and a number of client engagements both within IBM Uh across a variety of industries with a number of other consulting firms as well as some industry companies So, you know, for instance meeting one from telco a few weeks back That's used it for they said around four to five projects. It's definitely an indication of its use Finally, we've also seen other projects start to build on top of composer for example one from Accord For something called sysro as well as a plugin that was submitted from an independent party for a wallet plugin for amazon s3 So we've seen again a good number of amount of community engagement as well as this being served as the foundation for a number of enterprise engagements and blockchain Um, so with that, I guess I'll pause there and open it up for discussions or comment there So I just wanted to add that there is also still the remaining license issues that need to be resolved prior to Composer going to 1.0, right? I know in in simon's email I had mentioned that licensing was not a concern but it still does have a few things that are outstanding that will need to go through the Legal committee if it stands as it is right now That's right. Okay. Yeah, I apologize. I should have mentioned that as well And has this I've gotten a security scan from netitude yet Uh, yes, I believe so Yes, I am sorry. I was muted. Um, no it has not been scanned by netitude. That's uh, the we held off on that because Um, that's triggered by 1.0 and I was waiting for Um, you know whether They needed to be out of incubation to be 1.0 Was resolved which sounds like it pretty much has and so if they moved to 1.0, we'll we'll get that process going Okay, but with uh with saucer fabric. We had tried to do this game before the 1.0 Yeah, yeah, what I held off on was the the fact that it was um It was still an incubation and needed clarification. So And netitude just wrapped up a roja so we can get on their schedule now But it still would take three four weeks at least that's correct. Yeah. Well probably longer they um, they said that if we didn't Do it back when we were in their schedule. It was not going to be until may ish Yeah, somewhere in there. So I will get him on the schedule if we're going to move forward on this It's Don have uh, has I IBM done a Security scan. I know that with fabric. We did that. I believe you've done it for composer as well Yeah, so I know we've done a large amount of internal testing And security scan as well. I'm not sure if there was a specific group you're referring to that did it But I believe so And don I missed your your relationship with the composer project is you're a you're one of the contributing developers on it or Uh, the offering manager product manager that works primarily with composer Yeah, the they're the uk team is on holiday Oh, okay, so the ibm product Uh, offering based on this. Okay Exactly I think this is really close, but I feel like um I I we need to get any licensing variation approved by the legal committee Um, I as as we'd required of sawtooth and fabric Before it goes 1-0 Got it So the just and I'll I'll get the uh security scan going. Um, if it's dsc wants to spend the money I'm assuming that's a yes, right? We want to spend the money. I think the core question is for the tsc is um Do you want to approve a 1-0 before the security scan is completed or not? I don't know that there's there's not a hard requirement in our in our standard, you know In our release processes and requirements for that But we always presume we do it pretty close to a 1-0 relief and ideally before Um, so that it yeah But yeah, but they were in accreditation. So it was like it wasn't very clear Yeah, no, I don't think there's anything on on you Dave. Yeah unclear uh Process that's the we're pathfinding through now Uh, so I I guess from my side if if simon or caroline were here. I'd want to have Some discussion with them on understanding the the scope that they were aiming the project towards and Uh, how they felt about its feature completeness and stuff like that And I I think it would be probably in the best interest of composer to do that with with them Yeah, so I can definitely speak to some of that. So some of the, you know, most encouraging signs we've seen is its maturity and scalability Uh, specifically around how it's aligned to hyperlegic fabric. So for instance, the support for our gs chain code Has given us a lot of enhanced capabilities um In terms of both exposure of various fabric elements, uh, as well as improved scalability numbers Um, again, we do feel it's been from a future perspective And especially supporting things like for instance club wallet storage It's been able to be used for a number again of more armor mortuary more mature client engagements I'm sure caroline and simon as well could speak to a number of the more specific Technical features they felt have gotten us there Okay, so does it sound like maybe we'll be picking this discussion up next week with them? Yeah, I'm happy to also start whatever's needed on our end from Security can't scan perspective as well as I know we have the licensing issue in progress right now But if needed we can make sure they're back on next week I'll get a date from netitude when they can start the security can't scan But I won't uh commit. We'll just uh, we'll get it lined up That'd be great. And I think don if we can sort of confirm that we've had um You know pen testing and and security audit done I think that would be useful. I know we did that with fabric I'm sure that sawtooth did something similar purposes um, and Yeah, and I think having simon or caroline on to answer testing technical questions would be helpful And then again, I think Um The other the other you know the security the license scan. I think we can be you know, we can do a convention based on you know that kind of thing So, uh, yeah, I think I think I mean, what's what's the general sense of the the group of the tsc From dan have what others Don't all speak at once How am I interpreting this? Awkwardly Um, maybe I can stimulate some some conversation. I guess the the thing that I would like the the maintainers to to be able to discuss is um What What the sort of feature complete means for them and what that might mean for Uh, the flexibility or inflexibility of of the architecture after that point And then hear from them some discussion about what what that breath looks like um Try to maybe also understand from that. What are the motivations of Going to a 1.0 now as opposed to Maybe after reaching an active status or maybe after some other level of feature completeness unless The discussion on that latter point is that the feature set today represents uh The the preponderance of what they aspire to for uh for the near future Well, don is as the offering manager. I mean from a feature completeness perspective. Where where is your sense? Yeah, I mean like I said, I think our sense is that we're there in in terms of what we're looking for added in the last two releases specifically Those resolved some of the key issues that we've been hitting In terms of the stability of the project to support, you know ongoing use You know through the context of client deliverables um specifically things like the modeling language um Some of the other technical APIs that have been exposed I'm not sure. Sorry. What what specifically I can give that will be helpful on this, but um It's very much been something that we're not looking to make any, you know fundamentally Breaking changes now as as we move to 1.0. It really hopes to be Something that would deliver bug fixes documentation updates And any other community problems that that surface Okay, so that that does help answer the question from ibm's perspective as an ibm product making use of of composer and I think probably what I would like to hear then next week is the Uh Sort of the the community you want that? All right So can I ask you do do we feel at this point like we should start the process of Setting up a meeting with our legal committee to start talking about licensing or we're still waiting for and maybe nobody on the call can answer this we're still waiting for the um the changes to be made As of the last license scan that was completed this week So I mean I can confirm that I think we're pushing for resolution on that I think it was just one remaining issue for the license scan So I'm not sure how frequently the committee you mentioned meets but it is something we're pushing to resolution as soon as possible Okay, they kind of meet on demand. Um, it can take you know, you don't we tend to not you know Want to give them just like a few days notice you want to give them, you know Week and a half or two weeks kind of notice to try to get most of them there um because this is you know general councils from um same group of people who are on the governing board And then ultimately if there is any variance from the standard, uh, it's going to be approved for the governing board But that can happen out of cycle. Um, but there is a governing board meeting coming up the middle of uh this month so Um, if it's an easy thing to do we should try to get it on the agendas if it's you know Longer let's take this to email. Um, just so we can see actually what the variances are Okay, we'll do it. All right. So we gotta get by next week. Yep I really hate zoom Okay, so we're seven minutes Left I could do the fabric update then if That's acceptable See Link is here Sorry, I'm just Fits in around. Oh, thank you. Okay Rocket chat is really slow. What's the deal? Okay fabric update, um so, uh, we continue to Be growing and maturing as a community in march. We had our one at one release. Yay um, and We continue to grow the mix of contributors Um, you know, we're down to the point where I think and again, I think Tracy, maybe you have some slightly different numbers But I'm seeing about 36 of the contributors from IBM Although it is true that about 80 of the code is coming from From IBM, uh, we do have a long tail, but it's growing and I think that's that's the good news um So we've had over the course of the past quarter. We've had 96 contributors 18 companies about almost 1,100 commits And almost 700 lines 700,000 lines of code Changed in that time period. Um, I think we have a good mix of Questions and answers and so forth in in in our chat and our email the the mailing list continues to Um, be a little bit spiky. It goes from about 250 to 350 We had about 380 I think it was during March when we had the release so it tends to spike around a release when there's new content and questions about that or, you know People are having discussions about getting to the new content um And then in stack overflow, we're actually having pretty good traffic there as well. We have 1,450 Questions, which is an increase of about 450 over The last report I did out And again the questions there continue to be increasingly sophisticated, which is a I think a good sign Issues again, we're we're trying to make more effective use of Jira. I think Dave to your previous Search for a Jira consultant that seems to be very expensive Um, and then we found out of course that others had been able to sort of show rye cup copy paste versions of A configured Jira. I think we've been able to sort of move past some of the impasse that we had previously and Have been able to change the configuration To to suit at least most of our interest. I think there's some integrations we'd like to do but that's not critical Great, we'll keep working on that then Yep as noted We we had our 1.1 release in march We also had An additional three releases. We did our 106 patch release And publish an alpha and a release candidate in the interim over the course of the first quarter The rate of downloads of fabric has nearly doubled. So I think a lot of that was driven by the 1.1 release and some of the The previous releases so again more good signs of uptake by the community And the other interesting point to note is that we're adopting a quarterly release cycle Going forward so the next release should be in end of june It talked about the activity over the last quarter already current plans Um, we published our one so we had a maintainers meeting in uh early february in boston Um, and we chose our sort of themes for the 1.2 release We also, you know at that point agreed that we're going to do quarter releases and so forth um And so we published our 1.2 roadmap and um And there's also a corresponding jura dashboard that has more detail On each of the epics that are being considered as part of the 1.2 release at least for now We have frequent playback meetings. Oh, I meant to put a link in here for that and for design review of new features and or improvements and We intend to continue the the process of having regular maintainer hangouts on zoom Where we'll track the the progress towards a release and having the other Discussion we you know the first one we had Damn it. I meant to put I had to do this twice because something happened and I lost the page I'll put in a link here to also to the We had a release retrospective Last week and I will publish the link to that document as well diversity of the maintainers Is static, but I see some potential on the horizon um to add new maintainers Not from IBM and from IBM Contributor diversity is uh, again, it's growing There's a number of new individuals that are Seemingly not affiliated That are starting to make really great additions and then we've also started to see contributions coming from Accenture bbda Oracle and block ledger Um, so those are the some of the new contributors that I've seen in the past quarter and um There continues to be some collaboration with borough on the fabric EVM project I demoed that for Gartner the other day and then I think you'll start to see some more collaboration Yesterday IBM announced joining the sovereign foundation for instance and Um, and we're hosting a node. So all good news um That's about it any questions. Am I the only one on? I guess that's it Mark will put you up first next week Okay, uh apologies for that. We had a long discussion on the working group stuff Um, and we're at end of job. So talk to you all next week. Cheers Thanks Have a good day everyone. Bye Bye


Good morning everyone, Basel Chapman here. Just finished the Tiger Technicians Hour 10 o'clock to 11. He has the 11 o'clock Tiger Financial News Network market update on this Friday, January the 6th. We're looking at a huge move up in the Dow. Obviously, it liked the news, the economic news, it was kind of a mixed message. So, the Dow is 517 to 33,447 in this rectangle formation. If I can push much higher, if I can get to the 33,500, maybe even 33,600 by Monday or Tuesday, it negates this rectangle formation in a very short period of time. That will be really good if it suddenly turns around by the end of the day and then has a week. Monday it says, you just stuck in a range, but so far this is very good action. Looking at the S&P finally having a decent up move that so far is holding. It's up 59, 3867. The QQQ also having a very good session. Now it's up $4.00 at 265. Looking at the IWM, the rest of 2000 up nicely in a leg seat to the upside at 177.31 up 363. Gold had a very, very big move earlier on and it's extending that move. It's up 26 at 1867. Looking very good. Looking at the dollar, did rally, but it's given back some of that. No, now it's down. It's down 61, takes it 104.55. You're looking at the TLT. This is the bonds. Oh, huge move. So, yields are coming down. A lot of things are coming together for the chance to sustain and move to the upside, which is one of the reasons we got a little bit more aggressive on the downside, long side. We'll see if that holds. Looking at crude oil, crude oil is doing okay. It's up $1.19 at 74, 87 in the low range. Actually, the oil rigs are starting to move nicely. I just wanted to show you this in the very short term. If you're using the E-mini futures S&P, we're in a leg C in the 10-minute chart and in the chat wave methodology. If you get a buy signal to buy mode, which you're in right now, look how nicely the 90s over the 14 period moving averages, this should go to at least a leg D. And then you're going to make some decision if it gets to a peak D about the E-mini 10-minute chart, very, very strong, up 61.50. And with that, I think we're just about to wrap up. Great programming. Steve recorded his show a little earlier at 8 o'clock this morning. And most importantly, what we're looking at is programming all the way through today. Should be a wonderful day. Tom O'Brien wraps it up. Tom O'Brien starts it off at 9 a.m. Check out my opening call data newsletter, and I'll be back on Monday. Have a great day.


e antibiotic material is extracted by drowning The flies in ethanol. Isn't that exactly what Mohammed said you dip it? And by running the mixture through the filter to obtain the crude extract so according to science It says over here that the antibiotic for some of the diseases are actually found on the very fly itself And it comes by drowning the fly in ethanol on the point here is Mohammed of course because he can see the future as a prophet. He must have saw a vision So he's just explaining it in his own words And so he might have gave a very vague, uh Definition or you could vision of what we see over here. So no, it's not scientifically incorrect at all Well, it's one wing versus the other I think is the other partly clean, but that's okay. I don't All right, let's hear about coincidences next question from robin page $10 ozian Check out the critical historical research of j smith on the history of the standard islamic narrative This youtube channel is p fander films. He thoroughly debunks islam's history This history of a song.  Yeah Well, what I would say to that is I'd say look at my debate with Uh, j smith on this very topic if you just google my name and his name And you will see how he was not able to answer how islam is Uh, correcting the scientific errors of the bible But I think what needs to be pointed out over here, of course, we're talking about Well, I'm entertaining any questions about scientific errors Of the alleged scientific errors of islam and I'd love to do that debate Uh, but do christians participate in these type of debates? The answer is no J smith and all these christians that you are championing here They are very very careful in participating in debates which highlight the errors of the bible So at least muslims are willing to come forward to talk about these things Jews christians hindus and other religions do not open up their books for scientific inquiry for scientific Criticism because they know that the scientific errors in their books are indefensible So you should give me credit. You should give islam credit because we are the only religion that participates in these type of debates Like humans evolved from apes, right? You believe that? Oh, no, I don't believe that. Oh, okay But we could talk again. We could talk about my point to you ozian at least Try to have this discussion with a christian. It's not gonna happen. I do I have I have I have debates with christians on evolution have debates with christian on Young earth. I have debates with christian on the flattery too You can see I've had like nine debates with christians on here about all various different I had a debate with um Paul adams about atheism versus theism. I do these debates with christians. Okay, let me okay Here's my point. They will entertain the type of debates you are talking about that's true But when it comes to talking about the scientific errors like an epilepsy slave beating these type of topics the majority of christians They will not participate in these type of debates Especially on how islam is correcting the scientific errors in their books christians stay clear of these type of debates that will do catastrophic damage to their faith And they have really no good answers for so j smith isn't a christian He is a christian and he's staying away from the scientific error, uh debates He's he's they're really running away The point here is when we talk about slavery when we talk about you should give us credit We're here to debate these really tough topics. I do christians will not I I appreciate it's easier for me to find muslims to debate than is Christians because I they don't like my arguments for atheism, but That's a different argument because I think I'm much better than a lot of these people arguing for atheism too, but I think we should go on I agree Um samar far saying five dollars the karan states that mountains are like pegs Stabilizing the earth. This has been confirmed by science. What's your objection heroesian? Mountains are like peg stabilizing the earth. Yeah, it's been confirmed by science. What's your objection heroesian? Um mountains are not pegs stabilizing the earth like the earth is stabilized because of gravity And it's orbit around the sun. There's no reason for Land masses as x existing that he's just presupposing it must be the way it is and this is why it is the way it is So, um, I can't remember the fallacy, but that's okay okay Dan shire 999 Over 600 pages And you've boiled it down to six points to prove the koran is scientific Are there any claims made in the koran that are inaccurate according to science? I Assume this is firm and a deer. Yeah, so that's what We've had some debates on ask for you to look watch some of those. I mean This is where, you know, islam is in 100 percent agreement with modern science There are no scientific contradiction in the book and this is one of the many Miracles of the book the miracle which and part of that miracle is today Atheists and people here on modern-day debate are recognizing that fact They have seen the past debates on these topics and they they're convinced that yes, it's the islam has an air tight case That that is why they are not coming forward And they're very reluctant to debate Is the koran? Scientifically correct. I can't find anybody ozian came forward to fill that void. So One of the evidences and why you should feel confident that the koran is 100 percent correct Is because here on modern-day debate it is reaching a state of unchallengeability Nobody here on modern-day debate or really elsewhere Is gonna come forward to debate or and and try to challenge that claim that truth claim because they've watched those past debates And they see that the islamic side makes more sense Well, i'm looking at a poll right here. This is 86 of the people right now Watching don't agree with you They have already walked in with those preconceived ideas. They've already walked in with those preconceived notions So that doesn't it's not anything look look then your claim is that your other claim Then your claim you just made about the audience agreeing with you. No, that's the audience No, no, no, then it's not the audience that agrees with you. Let me on modern-day debate Okay, let's let's Let's get past this quackology I would say most muslims don't agree with you either when it comes to these claims actually that's not true Look, you could have one debate here. Okay, you upload it to the christian side. You upload it to the muslim side You are going to find the exact same thing in the comments Everybody's praising and and cheerleading one side and and the same thing How could you have one debate where there's two winners?  I don't want to mention their names, but look at those atheists for the big youtube channels Why are they not coming forward to debate the quran and science? They're not okay They're all running away and the reason why is because they suffered terrible debate defeats and they don't want to They know they continue to debate the quran and science It's going to destroy their credibility and youtube channel because they don't have good answers for the scientific accuracy of the quran That's why I This quran is in is reaching an unchallengeable state because there truly are nobody here except You know, maybe one or two people here and there who are really willing to challenge its credibility now because they're convinced Well, this is my first debate on the topic and it's not like the audience is here for me Either like I don't know but whatever but it is not the audience of these debates right here that agree with you See the people I think the 90% of the people who come to mdd They come here to to throw rotten tomatoes at islam or pretty anybody who basically tries to promote religion 90% of them really didn't even pay attention to the debate to begin with and you'll see that 90% of all the comments Are all going to be directed at throwing mud at me, but no intelligent discourse or breakdown of the actual arguments itself You see like daniel the he can teach he can teach you he brings it on Sorry, I just uh, yeah more super chats are coming in And you guys are like 10 minutes of question at this stage. So let's get going um Better truth five dollars nadir epilepsy hadith said nothing for cure but says I will invoke allah to cure Which is not science. Uh sounds more like a A comment. Um, I'm not even we're just going to go to the next question nadir mark reed 10 dollars nadir Why are you ignoring the unscientific claim in the koran lie demon possession? Why won't you debate me on the subject? Who is that who's saying that mark reed? Yeah, I'll do look mark I'll debate you so long as you acknowledge the fact that other atheists with bigger channels Are not debating me on koran and science once you acknowledge that and you admit That we know whether it's erin raw matt dilahante Uh apostate prophet they have all now ran away from the koran and science and you are filling the void left behind Uh, then yes, let's do it I'll just contact james and we can do it and and we can debate the science in the koran Whatever you like no problem So I never said to him just contact james and I'll do it and that's part of the scientific miracle That we are willing and ready to debate anywhere anytime, but the christians. No, no, no, they won't do that And I think we need to question that hindus will not do that jews will not do that Muslims are ready And mark, I hope you can appreciate our willingness to do so mark's a better debater anyways. You should want to debate mark either what He's a better debater atheist debaters So I you should want to debate mark then there's other people you talk about i'm i'm i'm open with i'm open for that. Yeah But I don't think it's going to challenge what's what's happening is people are jumping out of the audience To fill the void left behind by the retreating A atheist apologists once again been defeated once again mark's not an audience member He's appeared on this channel like 15 times or something like that in debates fully more often than you have Mm-hmm challenge accepted mark sign me up Um big snag since okay, so I don't understanding big snag since two dollars Um science versus Muhammad is the point of this debate Uh, no this debate was is the Quran scientific. I can even it's right there in our headline um Muhammad it was uh, not necessarily specific in the topic um Next question from cal ten dollars born a deer The Quran says alcohol is forbidden because it's good Not because it's bad You were debunked about this when you debated christian prince. Why continue repeating the alcohol myth? So, uh, there's many wacky quacky interpretations over here Well, first of all christian prince is another coward on the run He has been challenged to come here to debate On modern day debate and how do you see him? Do you see him anywhere? No Because he's a con artist what he does. He conducts sham debates A sham debate is where you control what your opponent says when he can say and mute at any time He put me in that position and when I realized oh my god. I'm in a sham debate I try to get the heck out of there You know, at least we got a fair debate going here on modern day debate But alhamdulillah many of his own followers notice he's pulling christian prince is pulling off a sham debate And uh, they came to modern day debate. They contacted james personally They said we'd like cp to come here and debate because that's a more fair platform And he ran away like a rat Okay, you can you can contact christian prince. You can say hey is the facts which nadir are giving you true He's not going to deny them. So these are all con artists on the internet. He has been uh, you know You know refuted many times, but the question I have for you is why can't you bring christian prince over here on mdd? And let's have that debate. Why not go and ask him.  I mean that's not even really what the question was whether why nadir was still using an argument when This questioner believes that that argument was was debunked. It wasn't we it wasn't any question about nadir's already debated him, apparently According to the deer, so well what happened was calling out every calling out all these people not want to debate them. It's like Do you just move it on band what I was calling out was christian prince Is that he tried to conduct a sham debate and he deceived this poor guy who asked the question and so, uh That really wasn't a debate at all. I was trying And so I hope the questioner can see the problem that he didn't refute my alcohol argument in any way at all But one thing ozzy and I wanted to point out to you. You see there's a difference. I accept that, you know I don't I don't want you to point out anything to ozzy and we're gonna get going This thing's getting long in the tooth a little bit Although we love having you guys and the debate's great, but sure we got robin webster two dollars Says that it is foolish to say any holy book is scientific That's her comment. We'll just let that comment stand um Dan shire 1999 dan shire with the big super chats today the debate topic is is the coran scientific You have argued the bible is worse and you have painted oz as a defender of the bible Do you have any evidence to support that the coran is scientific as a standalone text? Well the the person is missing the point here of the whole debate the issue here is How did muhammad know that these six points which were raised in tonight's debate were problematic from a scientific perspective That's what I am showing is a scientific miracle. How and how that's the first question How did you know these were problematic issues and the second question tonight? How were you able to provide better answers? That's where the scientific miracle is. I think it's undeniable by looking at all six points muhammad's answers on all these points Now of course are better, but to ozian's point. Well, I would I want more elaboration on why you're arguing these things Why you're taking this position? Okay. Yeah, I mean we can we could talk about that But I don't think that changes the fact that muhammad's answer is by far a superior answer And whether if it's answering all the issues like, you know, other animals You know giving rabies and and zoonotic diseases we could definitely talk about that But that doesn't change the fact so that's where the the question needs to to look at and focus How is muhammad doing these two things? Okay, um bitter truth sends two dollars nadir Uh Orca seed is the smallest not mustard Did I say that word right orchid seed? Oh, they were that's correct. They resent it again Retight orchid seed is the smallest not mustard. Okay. Thank you bitter truth for Sending a corrected super chat with another two dollars um Yeah, muhammad could have known that Or you didn't um The commonly Bengali sends five pounds How does nadir explain the hadith that said the sun setting in warm water I can give you a reference without super chat. It's a platter at steps. Oh, yeah Yeah, so I think what's happening here is um You know there the people are you know here I wish you would have focused on the actual topic of the debate And now they're just trying to disprove the Quran the fallacy which I see is happening. They're thinking that okay if I could try to find an error in the Quran It'll make all the evidence go poof All the evidence tonight will just go poof if I just try to show some kind of error But let's hypothetically say I just agree with uh, we was your was your notion that there's some kind of error in the Quran This evidence which I've presented isn't going to go poof Okay, it's still going to be there today and tomorrow and the only a true prophet of god can achieve What we have witnessed tonight Regardless of whether you find errors in any other part of the book look, I'll give you an example In light of all the errors we we have seen tonight is the example going to be quick. Sorry nadir. I just want to know Okay, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, I still believe Jesus is the messiah I still believe there's god's word in the book in the bible I still believe in moses So the scientific errors really didn't change that belief it just changed my belief of the reliability of these books But the issue about the sun setting in the pool of a murky waters Nowhere to the Quran say that the sun physically enters into a pool of murky waters or anything like that I have more to say on that, but I'll just wait for a time when we can debate that. All right. Thank you, sir Issa kaber two dollars are y'all coming to the after show on matters now I'll be there Are you coming on the deer? Yeah, of course I've I come to every party. I'm invited to awesome. Appreciate you Awesome. I'll make sure that you get the link before you go. I'm robin webster sends two dollars Asking why is ozian expected to defend the bible? He already asked that today sort of Um, well, no, that's what that was his error trying to defend the bible in my opinion I'm not defending the bible.  That was wrong of you ozian for doing that I argued I argued the bible wasn't a scientific claim and they're not claiming the issue here is Muhammad gave the better answer on washing hands That's you got to accept that. Okay.  The text no the text that's the Quran No, that's not the Quran That's not in the Quran Now the wudu is I think it's in the hadith that what no no the hadith explains the ritual you'll follow I looked this up the other day. I know What you're missing here is the text did explicitly say that Muhammad used to wash his hands before he ate That in the hadith. Yes in the hadith. Yes, but the Quran talks about Washing your hands wiping your head and washing your feet before you pray That's a lot better than arguing about it But can you not see that you have to go to the hadith to learn it's wash your hand three times Wipe your head three times wash your feet three times whatever it is and I think I'm not an expert of Islam You're not really you're not really refuting what I'm saying But you said you didn't know that was in the Quran. How could you not know that's okay? You're not really disagreeing with what I'm saying. So let's move on See So the Quran does say to wash your hands and wash your feet and wipe your head, right? Yes, well, I think that's in the hadith. I think it's in the hadith Okay, any Muslims can super chat it like All right So next question is from robin page for five dollars saying the deer the topic or the debate topic was Is the Quran scientific and you spent the entire debate? Instead attacking Christianity to an atheist Did I do that ozian? What's that? I'm attacking Did I did did the deer spend the debate attacking Christianity to an atheist? Is that really what this debate was about ozian? What do you think? I think it was was the Quran scientific but you turned it into which is more likely to The new testament or the Quran. Um, so it wasn't really a bond the scientific efficacy of the two claims It was which one provided the best explanation and my argument was neither does okay Well, the the the obviously if ozian can understand it other people can understand what happened in tonight's debate That i was showing how one book is correcting the mistakes of the other book That's a miracle. It doesn't you don't have to be an atheist or a christian anybody can see that So that's why and the reason why actually ozian is is is participating because the christians will not They will not participate in a debate like this Okay, and because they saw that what happened to other christians who have and they don't want to be next So the issue the scientific miracle is one book predicting and correcting the mistakes of the other book Um, okay next question bitter truth five dollars ozian some homework for you Please check chapter. I pulled it out 96 verse two in the Quran says we created human from aliqua Which means a cleaning cloth or blood clot its error never said looked like I mean that's that's that's just like I said it's not a scientific claim. It's a It's it was our best understanding of embryology at the time and it was false, but that's okay. You can you can do We've already talked about aliqua man. How is it? We're going right back It's super chats. They come in sequence like we some of these super chats were sent in an hour ago. Yeah Yeah, yeah, there's you already talked about that missing. Yeah, and fair enough All right, so we've got one more super chat here I'm gonna read And I'm gonna try to answer it So from big snag five dollars the bible isn't in the title But it's brought up every sentence from the deer. Why does the moderator let him bring it up when it's not on the topic? so my reason for allowing The deer to use the bible was because first of all he brought it up in his opening statement So as far as I'm concerned, these are the tools he brought to the debate to use as part of his argument He's citing the bible to try to prove his koran is scientific um and Ozean would have been the one in the position to either dismiss or argue that It is not a valid tool Um, whether he agrees that it is a valid tool or not. He entertained it It's not me for it's not for me to come and make ozean's arguments um That's the reason why I allowed it primarily because the deer brought it in his opening statement and I believe The opening statement is here are the tools and the weapons i'm gonna bring to this debate And here we are. Um, also Not being an expert on the bible or the koran myself. I believe there's a fair amount of overlap between the two texts so And there's that right right there's overlap. Yeah, so um, that's why I allowed it So much, um, I accept maybe I should have called it out a little more but I'm the guy in this chair I emailed james one day about wanting to be a moderator and if you would like to moderate some debates You're welcome to email and suggest we welcome all people to want to participate In this channel the channel is all about an open platform for people to come have discussions And that's what we've had today. We've had a discussion. Um, and now ozean's gonna go host an after show Nadir, I believe you're more than welcome to go join over there. So be Um, but real quick max hosting but yeah, well, that's okay. Um, so real quick ozean Where can anybody find you on the internet any given day? Is it debate over? Debate over that's it. Okay. A matter is now. Um, we're ozean talks Ozean's you find me on ozean talks all over the place. I have a gaming channel ozean plays too um, but yeah, I do most of my content right now on matters now with justin also And uh, we have a team there with an anathema who's in the Uh mod in the chat and with I killed earl Um, so come check us out. We're doing an after show after this and we're gonna have all three of us We'll be there it'd be cool. I mean after show come on stage and chat with us. It'll be it'll be a chill scene where the debate's over Of course, there might be a little bit of pushback and you know, but The debate's over it's an after show Um, so nadir where can do do you have a channel? Do you have anything coming up and people can check you out? Your camera went out of focus there bud, but Oh, sorry about that. Um Yeah, um Let me see. Yeah, actually, I think I have a youtube channel here Uh, I think if you just type my name, uh, and just type you nadir youtube channel, you can you can go there Unfortunately, I don't maintain it, but I plan to do so more in the future. So yeah Um, I missed the super chat Do you guys mind if I ask it real quick? Oh, I don't know how I overlooked it Um from I killed how much did he pay? She paid ten dollars.  They were worried. I was too spicy But it wasn't too spicy. I just legit forgot. Well, I mean they wrote it in caps, but I'm assuming this is an error Um No one cares what the bible says in this debate nadir. The bible being wrong doesn't make the koran correct a better answer Yeah, does it make it the correct answer? Uh find a new argument. So, um, I guess they were Challenging uh your approach today if you want to respond. Yeah Well, you got to be more open minded You got to understand what Are the issues here, you know, I think you are wrong about what you're saying the issue here It doesn't matter what this whether it's book. We should you should just look at it as book a and book b a man 1400 years ago was able to identify six problematic errors in this Uh, you could say anonymous. You could say this arbitrary book. It doesn't matter if it's a bible or what it is How did he know what those errors were and how was he able to provide better answers? There's nothing wrong with asking that question to an atheist There's nothing wrong with asking that question at all. So you got I think to be a little bit more open minded All right, thank you so much. All right. Well, that's the end of another debate. Thank you so much everyone for coming to Check this out. I'm going to Um dismiss our debaters briefly and I'll be right back In about like 20 30 seconds And and we'll just have a casual chat of our own for a few minutes And then we'll head over to the after show. So thank you so much. Don't forget to hit like and subscribe and we'll see you next time


وأقول في القرآن ما جاءت به آياته فهو الكريم المنزاله وأقول قال الله جل جلاله والمصطف الهدي ولا أتأوله الحمد لله رب العالمين والصلاة والسلام على عبد الله ورسوله نبينا محمد وعلى آله وصحبه أجمعين السلام وعليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته وعليكم ورحمة الله ورحمة الله ورحمة الله وبركاته وما يتقلها يجعل له مخرجه ويرزقه من حيث لا يحتس it يجب أن يتذكروا أنهم مسؤولون سوف يتسألون وعليكم لا يتسألون عن أعقبه وعليكم لا يتسألون عن أفضل أفضل أفضل وعليكم ورحمة الله ورحمة الله وبركاته لا تتسألون عن أفضل الأعقب لا تتسألون أفضل ما يحدث مع هذا الشيطان يوم القيامة وماذا يرغبون أنهم لا يتسألون لأن هذا ليس في أعقبك هذا ليس في أعقب الله سبحانه وتعالى كما الله عزو جل يخبرون النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم إنك لا تهدي من أحبب ولكن الله يهدي من أشهر لا تسألون أفضل الأعقب الذي يحب you love but Allah guides whoever he wills فهذا المساعدة ليس في أعقبك المساعدة ليس في أعقبك ولكن ما في أعقبك is how you behave and how you respond to those difficulties so focus on what you can control don't focus on what you can't control because there's a tendency when things go badly wrong or when difficulties happen people have a tendency to panic over things that they don't control or can't control and ultimately that is futile it's wasteful in term and it saps your energy and it drains you and instead of that focus on what you can do and that's why we're going to really talk about two particular issues here we're going to talk about looking at the child's tarubia as it relates to the parent and then on the second level or the next stage looking at the outside influences that might be affecting the child because ultimately many issues and I'm not sure we can say every issue but many many issues if not the vast majority of issues are going to come down to one of those two things in terms of what you can control am I saying that that the fault has to lie with the parent no it's not the case we don't say that the fault with regard to the son of Noor of Noor, عليه السلام, his son we don't say that that was the fault of Noor Noor was or set the highest example of parenting was a prophet from أول العزم من الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم so ultimately it's not the case but we're talking about what you can control there are broadly two things that you have an ability to change one is the way that you carry out that tarubia that you educate and prepare them and discipline them and manage the situation or looking at the outside influences that again we're not going to say you have 100% control over but you have some degree of ability to try to influence those outside influences or to try to control those outside influences so if we look at things like that the first thing that a person needs to do is to put their trust in Allah the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم told us in authentic hadith احرس على ما ينفعك وستعم بالله ولا تعجز seek be keen for what will benefit you and ask the help of Allah and don't feel that you are aegis you are unable to do it don't tell yourself you're unable to do it so the same principle here and we've come across this hadith many times the same principle is going to apply is that you're going to try your very best and you're going to start by looking at you as a parent and when I say as a parent here we have the issue of a person looking at themselves and then potentially looking at their spouse as well now it can be more difficult when the issues happen between the spouses there is a difference in message from each of the two parents the father says one thing and the mother says something else and I think that's very important to try to reduce that as much as possible it can be difficult and if it's a situation where the marriage is struggling it can also be a situation where that could cause impact upon the children so again I'm going to go back to looking at what you can control so if you have no influence over your spouse so it's not working at the moment the communication is not there and you're not able to talk to them about how you guys can come together and be consistent in giving the same message then no problem focus on yourself only at the end of the day have as much Taqwa of Allah as you are able to do as much as you can to protect yourself from the punishment of Allah this has been a recurring theme but look at your own self this course I wouldn't say it's been comprehensive we haven't covered everything but we have covered a lot of points as it relates to the rights of the children go through those and look at where things might have to change where do you think if it were to be something related to your طربي as a parent that could improve where would you want it to improve is it to do with softness and gentleness is it to do with showing affection is it to do with fairness is it to do with the whole way that the طربي and education has been structured is it too favoured in terms of too much on the side of the dunya and the worldly life and not enough attention being given to Islam for example so ultimately you look at those things and you make a plan to change them but when you make a plan to change them plan for the long term don't look for short instant gratification that I'm just going to change something and today my whole children everything my children is going to change at the end of the day it's going to require sabr it's going to require patience it's going to require time and especially when it comes to the older children you really need to plan for the long term don't look at very short term very quick changes that you make that really Alhamdulillah you might be able to make a quick change that improves the situation and if you can that's a blessing from Allah but generally speaking be prepared to make long term changes that are going to take a while to come into effect but insha'Allah you'll see the rewards of them over the long term so for example if I have a situation with a parent where a parent maybe says you know I've been too focused upon the worldly life I've pushed my children in school in their worldly education and I haven't given enough time for Islam and now they say they don't want it or they are pushing back against it there's going to be changes you see where you want to be but how are you going to get there not in a day, not in an hour but over time by preparing and planning for the long term look I'm going to gradually introduce some of those things I'm going to bear in mind what was said in the course about for example that make Allah beloved to His servants don't make people feel negative about Allah or feel negative about Islam but if that's been the environment in the house for years and years to change that is going to be something that you plan for the long term but you don't feel defeated you don't say that I can't do it you don't say it's impossible I'm not worried about seeing a result tomorrow I'm willing and Alhamdulillah if Allah is the best person you can change in the blink of an eye but I'm willing to have that patience for as long as it takes to bring about these changes and I realise there's often many changes not just one small change or two small changes but many changes and likewise maybe as we said often it's the case that the two spouses no problem let one person change let them turn towards Allah let them ask for the help of Allah let them not say that they're going to be defeated and then insha'Allah Allah will bring about the means to help with the other spouse the other parent to bring them on board especially when they see the success of what you're doing and insha'Allah those things will come about in their own time it is really important that as a parent you don't pass off your responsibility to other people and I've mentioned this I believe in the course already but especially passing it off to the spouse so saying it's not my problem it's my spouse's problem or it's not my fault it's my spouse's fault it's not my responsibility it's my spouse's responsibility to pass off to other people the teachers will take care of them the school will manage it the madrasa will do it youtube will do it that idea of passing the responsibility now that's different from saying that a parent has to do everything we're not saying that you as a parent have to do everything yourself you can delegate but the responsibility saying it's my responsibility to make changes here and yes no doubt the spouse is going to be involved no doubt there are going to be other people teachers and classes whatever it might be but you to say I'm the one who's going to take responsibility for this I'm the one who's going to grasp the nettle take responsibility and I'm going to do whatever I can because Allah has given me the tawfiq to recognise there's a problem Allah has given me the success to see there's something's not right here and again here I think it's really important to talk about doing things as early as possible the earlier that you can make changes the better the situation will be and there are people right now who are struggling with young children, toddlers 2 years old, 3 years old that is still easier to make those changes than when that child is 12 or 13 and we're easier than trying to influence them when they're 22 or 23 so here what we're saying is that a person needs to try to do things as early as possible if it is the case that your child's 18 and you're trying to fix things Alhamdulillah don't despair nothing is difficult for Allah don't feel it's beyond you it's well within the ability that you have with the help of Allah however if you're in a stage where you can make early intervention then this is really it is one of the means that you can really make the situation easy by the permission of Allah is to get involved early don't allow problems to simmer and then say I will solve it next month I will solve it in the summer I'll solve it when the school finishes I'll change their school next year I'll do something next you know in 2 years time in 3 years time when we move when I finish my job when I have more free time these are all things that you fear are part of the whispering of the shaitan about delaying and it's the same thing about Toba is that I'll make Toba next year I'll make Toba next month I'll make Toba in the future and ultimately that's not how we as Muslims are taught and that's not what Allah is our Jail is to do so we need to kind of get involved as early as possible and we need to understand that what we do for our children when they are very very young has a massive influence on what happens to them when they are older as does the relationship between the parents and I'm not going to try I don't want that to feel like a burden that like if you know the parents are not getting on so well or there are some marital issues that you know you have to solve everything or now I have to solve my marriage and I have to solve issues with my kids but realize that marital problems affect children that is the waka that's what real life is like you know children get affected by their parents marital issues to a greater or lesser extent so again that could be an easy fix that could be something where you could work and say I think that the majority of issues happening right now are because of what's happening between me and my spouse so in that case working to fix what's between you and your spouse could have the added benefit of helping with your children but even if there are issues between the husband and wife I'll come back again to the concept that the message from both parents should be the same now when I say the message should be the same I don't necessarily mean that both parents should be like a clone of each other but what I do mean is that both parents should encourage the children to respect the other parent and both parents should not allow the children to manipulate them into using one parent against the other which is what happens the children are very clever it's a kind of a negative point of human nature like a lot of people have told us in نهو كانا فلومة جهولة that the state of mankind if they're not corrected by Islam is one of oppression and ignorance and therefore it is there are some negative traits within human nature that Islam told us how to get rid of and one of them we see from the children is manipulating and playing one parent against the other and one of the ways you can minimize that is if you do disagree with your spouse about something with regard to your children try your best to discuss it with them privately or semi privately as much as you can rather than discussing it with them in front of the children because then they absorb that and they look and they say okay now I understand mom and dad I understand how to make a wedge between mom and dad and how to use that to get what I to get what I want so that's even very very young children so it's really important that even if the husband and wife are not getting on that they still have an understanding that when it comes to the kids we have to have a single message and even if the mom and dad happen to be separated or divorced it would still be the same thing that there has to be a consistent message with regard to the children and obviously we've talked about the fact that the husband and wife is a family structure the husband has a degree of responsibility but ultimately there's going to be times where the wife makes decisions the husband makes decisions and there has to be some kind of framework to bring those in line and again I would say here that the greatest advice you can give on that topic is that you make the decisions in accordance with Islam and if you make decisions in accordance with Islam you'll never be disappointed you'll never be disappointed we can't promise you what the outcome will be because the outcome is in the hands of Allah but we can promise you you'll never be disappointed if you do something for the sake of Allah sincerely you won't be disappointed so make it for the sake of Allah and make your decisions and the rulings you give with regard to your children like the Prophet SAW he said have the taqwa of Allah and be just among your children and one of the ways you are just among your children is to be fair in the way that you judge a matter between them as you make for them so make Islam the core of that and insha'Allah that will make things easy it's also important to bear in mind that the children differ according to their ages and we took from the hadith of the Prophet SAW when he spoke about the 7 year old and the 10 year old as it relates to praying and he SAW he said to command your children to pray when they are 7 and to discipline them when they are 10 years old and SAW here this is a fundamental principle as it relates to the differences in your children's ages and that's why even the way you discipline your children and the way you talk to them and the phases your children go through differ according to their ages and as a general rule there's a golden age of discipline and I haven't found a hadith specifically for this but it's from the the wise things that are said generally is that there is a golden age when it comes to discipline when it comes to the child being very young they can be too young before they become more before they reach the age of atameez because children they have these three phases there is the time of when they are small children and they are not they don't really know the difference between right and wrong not a developed difference between right and wrong they may appreciate that something is wrong because mommy and daddy shouted me when I do it but they don't really have a real understanding of what's right and wrong then they reach an age where they have an understanding they know something is right when they know for example that I'm praying to Allah and that you know they have an understanding and that could be at 6 years old it could be at 7 years old it could be at 5 years old there's no specific age but you would generally expect most children by the age of 7 they would have reached the age and probably earlier than that maybe by 5 or 6 they would have reached the age of atameez where they can distinguish between right and wrong and they know when they should be doing something and shouldn't and they have an appreciation for the actions they're doing like I'm doing this for Allah you know to a greater or lesser extent so that is a different age and then you have the age of puberty where they reach the age of puberty and they become adults and they could still be children quote unquote children living in your house because somebody could reach the age of puberty at 12 years old 13 years old 14 15 they may live with you until they're 22 they may live with you until they are 18 until they are 17 so here what we can see is that you could have a child who is who doesn't have an understanding of right from wrong and here very tough discipline doesn't really doesn't really work you obviously there's a place for discipline but generally there's a lot of play there's a lot of softness and the really kind of like life lessons to be honest don't work usually speaking and again this is a very very general speech I'm really generalizing but at that age which is less than 10 years it's not the ideal age for it it's an age of habits the age which is doing 10 years which is less than the age of knowing the difference between right and wrong is an age of habit building where you can build really good habits and you can build habits to know so many things you can do but discipline probably comes best at the age between 10 years and between realizing what's right and wrong and puberty once they go beyond puberty there's still a position for discipline but it's more difficult as a parent because they are now even though I don't really like the word I don't think it's a very good word to use because it makes you feel like Islam is burdensome but they are now responsible for their actions their earning sins and good deeds are being written for them they are now going to be asked in front of Allah about their own actions so now the kind of discipline that you can enforce upon them before they reach the age of puberty and again maybe puberty is not like it might not be who accept that from you a little bit longer they may accept it for example they may reach puberty at 12 years or they may kind of accept your really tough life lessons and discipline and stuff like that they may accept that up to 14 or whatever but we all know that as the children get further and further into adulthood it's harder and harder to enforce the same kind of discipline that you would with a 7 year old or an 8 year old or a 9 year old child so the golden age for for disciplining and giving them those life lessons is between the age where they realize what they're doing is right and wrong and the age of puberty or a little bit above that and that that really is the ideal time for that so what's the ideal time prior to that is like we said is probably habit building teaching them really good habits they may not really understand why they have those habits but teaching them good habits and good manners at the younger age according to the way that they can understand it and as for the older age when you're dealing with children who are already adults then really what is needed here is more accompanying them being alongside them being like a friend to them talking through their issues and realizing that they are now adults that have their own decisions to make that doesn't absolve or that doesn't absolve them of the obligation of obeying you as a parent as we're going to hear in this segment on parents it doesn't stop them having to obey you that's children to their parents that's how it is no matter what age even if the children are 40 years old or 45 years old or 50 years old they still have to obey their parents but the way the child the interaction of companionship being with them talking to them and taking longer the way you would deal with them the way you would advise them is like you would advise any adult you can talk to them as an adult you can give them a more refined kind of because they've reached the age of adulthood so you can talk to them as an adult now no doubt when it comes to teens this is particularly difficult because the problem with teens and I'm not sure how much this happened in the time of the Salaf Al-Saleh it's an interesting research topic I'm not sure how much this happened to them but in our time we have a problem of teens that are mature physically and immature mentally you can say there is a hadith the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم that they're young in the truth and foolish in the mind about the خوارج you can say this might indicate that sometimes you could have this problem but it is an issue of people who are very young who are mature as adults but they might not have that maturity in terms of the maturity intellectually and emotionally that we would really like them to have so that can be a difficult age where you get the kind of sometimes teenage tantrums behaving like a younger child but coming from an older child and that's something where probably the best behavior is to blend between the two phases if those things come out then it's showing that they're still young enough to accept that discipline from you because they still have that element of immaturity in them so they're still young enough to accept that discipline that you might give to a younger child but also you need to mix it with the advice and the kind of companionship and friendship that you would have with the older and more mature child so you probably need to blend those two together and like we said there are no absolutes see every child is different and you have to judge each child according to according to their individual their individual situation so that's all we have time for in this episode we'll be continuing our discussion on this for another episode because we need the extra time to finish as many points as possible that's coming up in the next episode and Allah knows best السلام عليكم if you're enjoying these videos and you'd like to keep up to date with all of the courses we're going to be running make sure you head over to amauathome.com