Hi, folks. I'm here with Imani Oakley, running in New Jersey's 10th Congressional District, and she is here to talk about her campaign. Imani, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk to you. It's been a difficult week for leftists, and hopefully you can help us cope with everything that's going on and everything that is seemingly going wrong. You're running a fantastic campaign. Your platform is just incredible. What made you want to run for Congress? Because there's seemingly infinite things that need to be fixed. It seems like a really hard task if you were to even get elected. What made you want to run? Yeah. Anybody that knows me knows that for the longest, pretty much throughout my entire adult career, I have always fought against unjust systems, whether that's unjust systems of policing, unjust systems of bad drug policy laws, unjust systems of racism, sexism, you name it. That's what I've dedicated my adult career to. And when I first started working in Jersey politics, I actually worked under what is known as the machine. And I got in, I was wet behind the ears, and I was just ready to make some transformative change. That's why I got into it. And the more I stuck around, the more and more I realized how absolutely corrupt they were, how they have actually manipulated the democracy in New Jersey via New Jersey's corrupt ballot design in order to make sure that their machine bat candidates constantly win. I saw how they used our neighborhoods as essentially financial and political playgrounds for democratic party bosses. New Jersey actually has a Tammy Hall machine style of politics where there are actual party bosses that people have to go to and get permission to run for office, get permission to do pretty much anything politically. Wow. And I saw how all of that was playing out and I was very much against, it was very much against my values. And so I decided to run against the machine and I certainly plan on beating them come June, 2022. So I like that you saw how bad it was. And rather than leaning into it because you are a moral person with principles, you decided, no, I want to fight this. Now, knowing how the machine crushes candidates like you who are grassroots, non-corporate funded, what do you think is the best insight that you have for politicians everywhere going up against the machine, knowing the way that it works because once you've seen how the sausage is made, you're grossed out by it. But a lot of people kind of get allured and sometimes co-opted. So what's your advice to other people? And what do you think is the main thing that helps you be effective at beating the machine? Yeah, yeah. So number one, I would say, do not get into public service if you don't have a strong foundation of values. From what I've noticed, the people who kind of get swept up in the machine life are folks who come in, they think politics is kind of cool, but they're more in love with the power and kind of the clout that they get from being involved in politics more than they are in love with the actual work. So if you want to stick to your values or you want to like continue to be a good non-corrupt person, do not go into public life until you have a firm set of values. I think that's ultimately what saved me. It's like, I was like, these are values that I'm not deviating from. We should have a good democracy. Black and brown communities should not be used as financial and political playgrounds. Like these were things that were solidly part of my foundation of morals. So I wasn't corrupted, but I've seen other people kind of get shaken because they're in love with the power more than they are with the actual good work that can be done through government. And that's the advice I would have. I would also say each state is unique. Each machine is unique. Like New Jersey has unique pressure points that I'm very familiar with because I used to work for them. I've both worked for them and I've worked against them. So I am very familiar with all the pressure points which allows me to really succeed in a lot of ways. And I think anybody can do that no matter where they are in the country. You have to learn the power players. You have to learn what makes them tick and you have to apply pressure to those pressure points and we can break this thing. We can really break machines. And that's why I really respect you as a candidate because so many people would acknowledge that even if they don't like what they see once they kind of are part of that club for lack of a better word, they know that it's easier to go along to get along. So even if you might not like it, it's easier to just kind of shut up and let them do their thing. But you fighting against it, it really gives me hope because I don't think a lot of people have that moral character and that's kind of the problem with DC politics. Some people who are elected, even if they have the right policies, they don't necessarily have the correct diagnosis of the system. And one way to kind of demonstrate that is the ongoing negotiations with Build Back Better and the bipartisan infrastructure, which I'm sure that all my viewers and you're tired of hearing about at this point. But I think that one thing that's really missing is the way that corruption comes into play. You see people talking about the hypocrisy of Joe Manchin holding up the entire Democratic Party's agenda. He said he wants four trillion in January and now he wants less than two trillion. But I think that the core thing that's missing is this conversation about corruption, the way that he takes money from the fossil fuel industry, the way that Kyrsten Sinema takes money from big pharmaceutical companies. So in DC, assuming you're elected, what would you do to really shine a spotlight on that? Because I think that a lot of Americans have a sense of the way that politicians get corrupted by big money, but they don't necessarily know. And I think it's a matter of connecting the dots. I'm not sure if you agree with that. So how would you bring this to the forefront as a representative and, you know, as someone who's gonna be calling out your colleagues, how do you think you would deal with that knowing that they might kind of try to push you aside once you're in DC? Yeah, so for one, you know, I haven't been taking money from corporate PACs. We actually outraised my opponent two to one last financial quarter only on low dollar individual donations. And that's not gonna change once I get to Congress. Once I get to Congress, I'm not going to all of a sudden, well, I'm here gonna take some PAC money. So corporate PAC money, you know, that's not gonna happen. So that's one way to avoid getting corrupted is making sure that run on those values and then stick to those values of not taking corporate PAC money once you are actually elected. As far as pushing colleagues, you know, I think that it takes kind of a twofold thing going on here. It one, making sure that I maintain my relationships with those outside organizers and organizations that really are pushing, they aren't working from the inside of Congress, but actually pushing Congress to do things, making sure that I'm still working with them, still helping them get a platform, still showing up to their rallies and making sure that their voices are still amplified via the power of my office. But then it's also, when this is going to be really, really critical, we have to get our numbers up in 2022. Because you can really, you know, do all the right things when it comes to keeping contacts with orgs. You can do all the right things within Congress as far as showing up to committee and, you know, testifying the right way, but we need the numbers. We absolutely need the numbers. And I know folks are tired. I know, especially in Jersey, where we've just, it just been seemingly like back to back to back elections, but we really need to come out and making sure we're doing all that we can for progressive candidates this time so we can have, build our numbers up and we can really do some damage and have actual power once we're in Congress. Yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up because a lot of people are feeling beat down, especially after this week. We just had the catastrophic loss in Buffalo, New York with India Walton. Someone that, you know, I was really rooting for and following on this program. We had the loss in Virginia, which I don't necessarily feel to invest it in, but you know, we see how the left is getting blamed. At a time where I think a lot of people, especially seeing the way that the build back better negotiations have gone, feel kind of like they're ready to check out of politics and knowing that grassroots candidates such as yourself really rely on enthusiasm and what you lack in corporate donations you make up for in grassroots support. How do you keep people engaged? Like what's your advice to people who are usually enthusiastic, but they just feel beat down by the system and feel like there's never gonna be change? Like what would you tell that person? Because this is something that I kind of struggle with myself in terms of trying to keep people motivated. Yeah, well, I mean, as darkness is about to sound, you know, the way we're looking at things here in New Jersey is that we smell blood in the water. Essentially what happened here in Jersey is a bunch of machine Democrats took some serious losses or are very, very close to possibly taking a loss. And everything that we can point to shows that it's their own fault. It's their own fault in the way they structured our corrupt ballot design. It's their own fault in the way they've actually chosen candidates in the past and chosen more people who are lackluster and not actually start candidates because they can be what they call loyal, which means they're just a yes person. And it's coming back because what's happening is Republicans are putting up their quote unquote best people, meaning they're like not best values wise but best politicians against some very lackluster talent and it's showing in New Jersey. And, you know, all the progressive folks in New Jersey are seeing it. And so I think, you know, even though we've taken this loss, now is the time to really hunker down in our values to shine that light on the things that establishment and machine Democrats have done that have absolutely screwed us over and really drive that point home and show them that we're not going to continue to lose to conservatives and Republicans simply because they have an agenda for their own personal power. So that's what we're doing here in Jersey and so far like folks are ready. I can already feel the energy folks are gearing up for June 7th, 2022. That's great. That's really, really great to hear. I wanted to ask you because we don't necessarily know what the landscape will be like next year. If you're elected, you'll be sworn in in 2023. So we don't know if Democrats will still hang on to control the house but hypothetically speaking, if you were in Congress right now, what would be your take? Would you do anything differently than congressional progressives, members of the squad? What do you think they're doing right and what do you think they're doing wrong with regard to the Build Back Better Act negotiations? Yeah, so I think they're doing the best they can. Again, it's all about numbers and I think they've actually done a good job in actually proving a point here and what we've been seeing is that progressives have actually legitimately been trying to work with Biden and I know that kind of puts progressive policies back a little bit because we are more to the left of Biden but essentially they've done a great job of proving the point that the problem isn't progressive, the problem are these centrists like Manchin, Sinema, Gottheimer, those are the folks that are actually obstructing change and actually blocking people from getting real things done and helping real people in this country. So I actually think they've done a great job of proving that point. I think the one thing that, and again, maybe this is just my bias as a candidate but I also think that, progressives need to support progressives and not to say that they're not doing that but we're reaching out to folks looking for endorsements. I'm hoping that those star progressives that are in there can start endorsing a lot more because that helps to build momentum and again, not saying that anyone's not doing this necessarily but I'm just saying if I were there that's kind of what I would be pushing for is to like making sure I'm getting out those endorsements and help just kind of corralling folks for these elections. And again, there's a difference between what you do politically and then what you do like actually in Congress and when you're doing policy but I think right now it's time to really turn on the burners, switch gears a little bit and really, really push to get that progressive way because we've only got like a few months before a lot of these races start getting down to the wire and getting down to election day and we need the numbers. Like I cannot emphasize how much of a difference it would make if we boosted our numbers. Yeah, I think you're bringing up really important points. I think that one, if I could critique members of the squad I do think that they capitulate too much to leadership but one thing that's also missing is this connection between the organizations that help them get elected and to an extent they still do work with leaders of organizations like Sunrise and whatnot but you still kind of feel that connection in a way was severed and also on top of that I feel like they need to do more to endorse Kennett. So it's nice to know that if you were elected you would endorse up-and-comers because you know whether it's a matter of them not doing enough to fight Democratic Party leadership and caving too soon everyone admits and knows that it would be so much better if there were more progressives in Congress and I think that they really could do more to endorse people such as yourself who are very truly like galvanizing people in your districts and I think that's so important. One thing that I wanted to ask you is where you'd stand on the Build Back Better Act. So we don't necessarily know what it's gonna look like in the end but there is the infrastructure bill and the Build Back Better Act. So as a member of the House Congressional Progressive Caucus, which I'd assume you would be what would happen in the event the Senate didn't vote on the Build Back Better Act but they expected you to vote on the bipartisan infrastructure deal first. Now knowing this, you'd kind of give away your leverage at least temporarily, maybe you secure a promise from Joe Biden, what would you do in that situation? Because knowing that if you vote for this Manchin holds all the cards but yet Joe Biden is saying do it. Pramila Jayapal is saying I have the votes, vote for it. What are you as an individual lawmaker doing that instance? Yeah, so in that instance I would make a kind of calculation you know, how many more folks get damaged if I don't vote for it versus if I hold back and say I'm gonna hold the line a bit here and fight this out a little bit more. I think it would really depend on what the situation is on the ground and how dire people need even just the smallest amount of help because a lot of times these bills when progressives are pushing them they can help like just like tons and tons and tons of people then the centrist get it and it gets whittled down to significantly less people but it still ends up being thousands of people, right? So I think I would end up making a calculation of like, all right, how many people actually need something to be delivered today? Like we just actually need to get this done today versus like, can I hold the line a bit more? And in holding the line, can I also push members? Because it's not about just like holding the line and like there's no kind of push or demand there because that doesn't really help anyone. But is there a way to say like, get people in somebody who is a centrist getting folks to call their office? Are they in an election year? Can I get their constituents to bombard their office with phone calls saying we will absolutely not vote for you unless you give us something good, right? So they're a little tactless and I think it depends on really what the situation is at the time when I'm in there but broadly speaking that would be my calculation. So how many people need it like right now versus like, can I hold the line a little bit longer? And then also like, what are my avenues to apply pressure to those who are really trying to make the bill essentially worth this? Okay, okay. I wanna ask you another hypothetical question because I think that these are really useful for kind of gauging how candidates would legislate and govern because you're inevitably going to be put in really difficult predicaments as a lawmaker and as a progressive, they're going to try to test your patience and your moral fortitude. I think it's basically inevitable. So one thing that you mentioned that I love is that you would endorse outsider candidates who are running these insurgent primary campaigns. So let's say that you have this really, really key issue for you, a bill that you've introduced and it's starting to actually gain momentum. You have committee hearings forward and you're missing some really key co-sponsors here. Now one member noticed that you might be endorsing their primary opponent, but yet this is also someone who could potentially co-sponsor your legislation. In that predicament, in the event they said, hi, Imani, I really wanna support your bill, but I don't know that I can work with you if you're gonna be endorsing my primary opponent. I just don't know that there's this long-term relationship, maybe I'll change my mind if you withhold your endorsement. What do you do in that situation? Because this is a really tough thing that I think that a lot of members of Congress who are progressive are gonna have to deal with. I feel like this is what happened with AOC and Cory Bush back in 2020, when she kind of withheld her endorsement for Cory Bush because Lacey Clay, Cory Bush's opponent at the time, was co-sponsoring her Green New Deal resolution. So what would you do in this instance? I just kind of wanna see the way that you would make this calculation and think it through. Yeah, so I promise I am not trying to avoid your question, but what I will say is I would not be in that predicament because I would keep it very close to vest on who I'm endorsing. So again, I'm really not trying to avoid your question, but essentially the other members would not know. I keep it very, very close to vest. My team has been very good at keeping things close to vest generally throughout this campaign and I don't see that changing anytime soon. So I would keep it close to vest and people wouldn't be able to tell until I did it. So that's number one. And then also just being strategic and smart about, like, who can I kind of tolerate being around because they will sign on to certain bills versus like who has got to go like tomorrow? Like for example, my opponent has to go like tomorrow. He has the third lowest attendance rate out of all of Democrats. So like even if you wanted him to sign on to something, he's not there. So best of luck. So I would also be very, very strategic in like making sure that whoever I'm endorsing, it's like, you kind of got to go for us to get anything done. But I would also keep it close to vest. So that folks really wouldn't know until the time came. Interesting, interesting. Okay, so you kind of touched on this. Tell me more about your opponent because I think that this is really important to draw these contrasts.  And I think that when we talk about corporate Democrats, people kind of get a sense, but really explain like put it into perspective for us. Why is your opponent so bad? Why do you feel like your opponent needs to go right now? And why this is so important? Yeah, absolutely. So my opponent is one of those members of Congress who inherited the seat from their dad. So we've got a local dynasty going on, which of course we want to get rid of all of those. He's been in the seat for 10 years. Like I said, he has the third lowest attendance rate among all Democrats and one of the lowest attendance rates amongst all members of Congress. So he's not even going to work for the people of the district. On top of that, he has taken money from some of the worst actors out there. He has taken thousands of dollars from ExxonMobil. He has taken thousands of dollars from several oil pipeline paths, including Enbridge, which is responsible for the crime three oil pipeline. He's taken thousands of dollars from Amazon, who right now, as we speak, is trying to build a secret hub in this district, in New Jersey's 10th district, that will add significant amount of pollutants to the air in Nork, where there are considerable black and brown residents who already have some of the highest rates of childhood asthma in the nation. In the nation. And this guy's taking tens of thousands of dollars from those folks, okay? He's taking tens of thousands of dollars from the realtors pack that is currently fighting right now to stop Elizabeth Warren and Cory Bush's eviction moratorium bill. And this is also a district that has some really big issues with housing stability. As of 2019, we were number one in the nation for foreclosures still, even after the housing. We have constantly rising rent that is pushing gentrification, pushing homelessness. Like it's a real, housing is a real issue here. And for him to be taking money from those folks, it's just a slap in the face to the constituents of this district. On top of that, there are currently around 15 bills right now that are sitting in Congress that focus on LGBTQ plus rights. And a lot of these bills are really important. Like one of them bans the use of the really torturous fracture of conversion therapy. And nearly every single member of the New Jersey delegation is signed on to at least two or three of these bills, including Trump Republican, Jeff Van Drew. My opponent is not signed on to one of those 15 bills. And in fact, it was that he wasn't signed on to 16 of them. Then we criticized him both in the papers here in New Jersey and on social media. And then all of a sudden, he found it in his heart to sign on to one of the 15. So again, this is a guy that I like to call someone who aids and abets the Republican agenda. So the fact that you're not signing on to legislation that is this simple, protecting LGBTQ plus rights, very simple, very easy to do, especially in your deep blue district. That's a guy that needs to go. He is not working for the people of this district. And he's somebody who frankly, I think aid and abets the Republican agenda. Yeah, I mean, it's like with Democrats like this, who needs Republicans, right? It's so infuriating. I mean, we're talking about the bare minimum. And the one thing that I think about with Democrats is that usually at least rhetorically speaking, they're better on social issues, LGBTQ plus issues. So if you can't even do that, if you're not willing to be economically progressive, then you better really deliver when it comes to social issues. And if you can't even do that, I just feel like what is the point of you even being there? But as you said, I mean, this is a dynasty. He's there because it comes down to privilege. What I wanted to ask you about, this is kind of a different subject is, it feels like the difference between progressives like yourself and corporate Democrats, the differences are so wide now. It feels weird that we're all having to share this party. Like it's this unholy alliance, but because we have this really antiquated two-party duopoly system, it's like you have to run in one of the two major parties in order to win. If you're elected, would you be open to cosponsoring legislation like HR4000? It hasn't been reintroduced yet, but what this would do is it would move us towards a multi-party system. It's not a guarantee that this legislation would create multiple parties that are viable, but it would end gerrymandering. It would make us more proportional. Would you support something like that? Because I feel like the way that our current government is structured, even though money is the core issue that's kind of corrupting everything, I think that having more parties would also help. So would you be open to something like that? Yeah, I'm open for anything that gives us more democracy. Anything that can give us a better and improved democracy I am for. Again, coming up in a state where democracy is really quite manipulated and uped with regards to our ballot design, which is literally the most corrupt ballot design in the entire country. We are literally the only state that uses it.  And there's also a court case going on right now where candidates are actually suing over this ballot design, stating that it's unconstitutional. And so coming up in a state like that where we have real problems with democracy, democracy is something that is very important to me. No matter where I'm landing as far as my party affiliation, I do believe that people should have the choice in a democracy to choose what party they wanna run as, choose what party they wanna vote for. And that should be open and free to every one of us. So I am open to anything that gives us more democracy. That's great. Yeah, that's perfect. And with your perspective, like from your state, that definitely makes sense. I've seen the ballots from New Jersey and it is mind-boggling to me. I don't know how people deal with that because it's so confusing. It's stressful enough filling out a ballot. I live in Oregon. So we get our ballots mailed to us. And that is a very long two-hour process where I look up each ballot initiative. So to make the ballot itself more complicated, I feel like that is a form of voter suppression. So I'm glad that you're shining a light on this and people from New Jersey leftists are shining a light on this. So I feel like at this point in time, all of my viewers, they're already sold on you. It's just a matter of how do we help you get elected? So what is it that you need from us? Do you need donations? Do you need canvassers, phone bankers? We want you in Congress. How do we make this happen? Yes. So there are two ways. So the first way, of course, are those small dollar donations. If you can, please go to Oakley, F-O-R Congress. So that's OakleyForCongress.com. You're gonna see a pop-up. Please, please donate 25, 50, 100 if you can, and spare 250 or more, because we are not taking money from corporate PACs, and my opponent certainly is. Right now, the momentum is in our direction. We outrace him two to one, but we can't do it just once. We gotta keep doing it all the way through election day. So please go to OakleyForCongress.com and drop us a donation.  You're gonna see a button that says Volunteer. Click that button, sign up to volunteer, because we definitely need folks to help us phone back. If you're in Jersey, we need help canvassing. So we do need those volunteers and those boots on the ground and ears on the phone. So again, that's OakleyForCongress.com. Please go and donate, sign up to volunteer. We would love to have your help. Well, Imani, I am absolutely rooting for you. I'm sure we will follow your campaign and bring you back on at some point. Hopefully when you actually win. But either way, thank you so much for just staying engaged. I know it's really difficult right now to even think about politics, but the fact that you're running and making this self-sacrifice, I really appreciate it. I know that my viewers do too. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. This was great.