And that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly joining me as always is my co-host Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello, friends Glad you got home. Okay. Tom and I were hanging out all weekend. We we did a long D&D marathon game It was a lot of fun So Tom's back though The end of almost a ten-year campaign. Yes, the end of a nine-year nine-year game. Yeah, absolutely so Oh, oh bear for this time. That's all right. That's all right That's okay. Well, it was a culprit. I was even watching it to make sure that I hit the mute as soon as it went live Joining us for the first time the two newest members of the re-rolling ones family bear James How you doing gentlemen? Doing well. Thanks for having us on the show. Absolutely. Thank you all for having us so excited Re-rolling ones Jack will join us in the future at some point in time not probably not tonight But like we'll have him back on the show. We didn't fire Jack or anything. He just had something else come up But you know all good such as life. That's okay. We always love when re-rolling ones Jack is around So we'll get him back on maybe we'll do a show with just him sometime But we've got the new the new blood the young bloods are here All right, they're hungry and we're gonna be talking about cruel boys But of course first news Tom, what's up rumor engine? It's a polearm thing looks like a scavening polearm thing. It's exciting. Mm-hmm I mean, is it really scathing though? Like it kind of looks like scathing No, that little like blood channel in the middle isn't them, but otherwise the shape. Yes, it's exactly their pull arms the spike on the back Like the nature of it I snipped about a lot of those pull arms off to make because all of my storm cast Have the that exact weapon from the storm vermin kit and it's very very very similar in shape and style But you know like it again, none of theirs have the little blood channel type of thing It almost seems a little too well-crafted. Those are some nice machete teeth on there Very nice rivets. You got to look at the rivets, right? That tells me it's probably an annoying 40k thing It's too clean it's yeah, I look at that and I looked at that And I was like man somebody put a lot of work into cleaning that thing up Yeah, I mean it's as much as I would hope for something else. It's a it's a 40k thing Maybe space rats are cleaner than fantasy rats. Could be could be Absolutely, it's possible indeed Yep Yes, everybody says it's the same as this old concept art. I'm aware I know but we had to start with the hopeful thing and then dash though. Don't worry, but good good shout out everybody That's true Cool that let that means we can just move on past it Demon yeah, so tickets go on sale for the October Golden Demon on August 1st There will be a limited number of tickets They they talked about that because it's at Warhammer world and there's like a maximum occupancy of that building, right? So if you're interested in going August 1st mark your calendars Four days from now, I guess specifically or something like that four or five days from now Monday so there you go Just want to shout it out because there will be a limited number of tickets You know, it's I don't want anybody to miss out who really wants to go as it as it returns triumphantly to the UK for the first time in three years, so Since sorry, you're in May 2019 Yep It's coming is the answer. Mm-hmm. Yeah And then finally the thing we all want to talk about the real news The real news the real deal news, okay FAQs I've got them all I've got all the ones that are relevant load it up your Tom Okay, like because there are just some things that don't matter Well, we'll mention them in passing, but they're they're not super relevant. I'm sure I agree with that All right gentlemen bear James. I'm looking for your your your feedback on this as well. Here we go battle Tomescaven Anything in here that surprised you or made you sad or made you happy The thing that made me sad was now it says unmodified for the three With a charge move the way people were using them with plus three the charge and then the whole army would get a 13 or something I think sure fun detected funded fun annihilated. Yep I'm not even a scaven player and that was exciting to me to have one million rats on a 13 inch charge It was a fun trick. I got in one game and Yeah, I let me charge once with my army. It was like yay Now it's just like there's no way I would ever build like I appreciate that it's like Okay, they didn't want everybody charging on a nine with the with the pack master but to pull that off I had to take three of these dumb heroes in master clan or The warp seer who isn't a very good one and some other one like a gray seer Then I had to take the master molder or this worthless pack master So I'm taking the master molder then I had to take something worth charging out of there Which is probably rat ogres, right? So like my 600 to 800 to 900 point combo to land a bunch of charges I don't even have that many units left to charge Right. Yeah as a gargant player. I appreciate when the snacks come to me Sure, nice rat snack that come. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sure So at any rate, it's sad like I don't care that much. I'm not gonna die on the hill But like it's a fix because it was a fun interesting thing you could build toward and have a wacky list It wasn't gonna really win games. It was just neat and now it's dead. So yeah Unfortunate the only one in here that there are two that in here that surprised me actually I should say The one that surprised me was do units that are set up hidden inside another unit like weapon teams and death Count as being set up for the purposes of alternating deployment Yeah, and the answer being no so So To go with that If something were flown off in the reserves with the grinder, they don't they go with them So to go along with that. Yeah, yep And then the one that was truly sad was they went to all the trouble to rewrite the text on Thankful so that like it very much read like you could modify the 2d6, which by the way is the correct thing to do Okay for that one spell. I I don't know what they're afraid of here He already like the because with the plus three you're Statistically more likely to want the plus three. You just shouldn't use the 3d6 All it says is thank will never eats warp stone Just roll with plus three plus three is a better mathematical bonus than 3d6 pick the highest too with a chance of mortal wounding yourself on 13 Right. Yep. Yeah, so like cool. Thanks for shutting that rule back off I guess you didn't want thankful a character extremely famous in the story for Incessantly eating warp stone to ever eat warp stone in a game So I mean it seems fine to me. Yeah It's a whatever thing like it didn't matter. He was gonna get the spell off before he's gonna get the spell off now It's just like did the two rules make sense together so you could actually use your fun rule Nope So fine Okay, great Did also clarify the unique option for the grace here, which yes This was a happy change that thank will can now take the the you know the actual spell or as it were yeah good like duh I mean, I Yeah, I I was playing it exactly as it said in the book in all my games So I wasn't taking a spell with him, which is terrible because his spell is trash But you know, I felt it I got that levitate though So when else is getting flaming weapons Yeah, so yep, you can take those the other the other sort of sensible thing out of out of um Out of the this change was they clarified that it's not one per ten times three you can't fit like six rattling guns and six warp fire throwers and six do Doomflares in the same unit. Oh, yeah Details details. I first of all hilarious.  It's fine even at one per ten like popping out six doom flayers when you charge Is still completely wild so Yeah, whatever. I I kind of want to just faint ignorance and record a bat rep where you just unload All of those things from one pack of clan rats I do have nine of those doom players. Oh, perfect. That's amazing. That's amazing That's more doom players than any human being in existence There is no way you don't have the most doom players of any single person if you have nine Nine, I don't know. I don't know. What about uh, what about scaven and az No, wait. Yeah. No, he has like one or two Because that's all they were ever useful for an 8th edition That's fair It looks so cool. It looks so cool. Hey, I dig them. They're cool. Absolutely And then yes, the doom player also now benefits from the charge if it's unit charge, which is cool So fun stuff Um, they also clarified that if you can't set somebody back up from a brass orb that you that they're destroyed Which is a fun way to ends to give marathi off the table that does work now because you can if you can box Or out of her deployment zone of being able to set up then the Then the one half will die which takes the other half with it at the end of the turn. So So some fun was preserved Yes, I always I will sacrifice a game just to do that thing in a game Sure by marathi turn Uh, so yeah, I'll I'll I'll find couple a couple calls. I didn't love there But in the end nothing that's really like the end of the world. It's just like It's I love somebody to you know, you're looking at the other FAQs I'd love somebody to like I don't know if you picked up in the in the FAQ core rule update We're not there, but we'll get there. Sorry. Go ahead. You're okay. We're doing these in order tom This is a structure. Okay. It's fine. I was I was getting excited. That's all I'm it's okay and get excited It's good to be it's good to be excited tom Uh Sylvaneth We answered a lot of questions here about the lady of vines because apparently people really found that While you're within six inches you're treated as being near and awakened wildwood or overgrown as extremely confusing When like I don't know that's fine Yes, you have to be in it Yeah, that's it Everything flows from that Yeah, I'm confused. What was confusing about that. So when I read the FAQ I was more confused than I started off with Like I'm I'm not sure why this needed answered, but thank you. Thank you It's funny that we didn't get the answers I expected Yeah Which we didn't get the answer to the strike and fade death frenzy interaction Like I think by raw right now the way I read it the death frenzy models would fight and then the people would fade Yes, that's that's how I read it too. Yeah, but there is some argument about turn priority having an influence on that. It depends um But either way that could have used a clarification because that's something that will happen Yeah, yeah My read of it right now Is the model slain out gets to gets to pile in fight removes and so on until all damage is resolved from the death frenzy Then the unit fades Like disappears and that obviously you don't like and then that's it um Like But I could easily see them ruling the opposite direction. That's the problem Like there's not it's it's It's a pretty fuzzy Raw interaction Um, so you you're we're we're making some leaps there about timing But that's the thing that wasn't clarified that I was really hoping would be clarified Um, so for now until it is at some point in the future Uh, ask your to that's what I would say just just like if you're gonna go to a tournament ask your to how to how to play it But if you want to know what my opinion is, it's exactly what james said It's you do get to fight with the death frenzy and then the the sylvanath fade I was also surprised they didn't uh Take care the the phrasing just says slain so It's it's I was surprised didn't say combat phase or anything to that effect because the way it reads now is Uh, if someone charged me is still the charge phase and these units are slain They then pile in and fight if they're within the range yep How does pile in fight on death interact with the scythe hunter one mortal wound after a pile in Well, I'd have to look specifically at it, but i'm pretty sure it's anytime that you finish a pile in within Three inches of them. They just deal a mortal wound to the unit if any models in that unit finish a pile in So realistically they would trigger death frenzy and then And then suffer an additional mortal wound which could kill an additional guy Which could cure to trigger additional death frenzy. It wouldn't it wouldn't keep going because that mortal wound only ticks once So it's just it's a one-time thing. It's not every model that piles in Always one of the fight blood sisters in xanthar kai With death frenzy on 60 clan rats just watch watch the chain reaction. I think that'd be Hilarious on table. Yeah, absolutely But all in all the silvaneth other than not answering things was fairly uncontroversial All right, let's talk about the core rules and the generals handbook Real quick here. So tom what core rules items did you want to bring up? I have the I have the Generals handbook one here for you. What was your core rules interactions you wanted to discuss? Well, it wasn't actually an interaction, but it was a curious So it said that the pitch battle profiles are available for download at the warhammer dash community.com website Like that was specifically at it, right in the FAQ Um, I can't find it It's not what they keep page if you scroll down Okay, um because I was at the downloads Maybe I was looking in the I was looking in the download section, which is where you would expect not the FAQ section Yeah, they do need to place that better the points should I agree with you logistically the points should be over in the download section That's where they belong But no as of right now they're published in the FAQ section if you just scroll down you'll see like Battle points or something. I don't know what it's called exactly, but it's in there Uh specifically it is called pitched battle profiles updated on the 21st of june 2022 Yeah So but I love seeing that I love having that readily available in a chart online downloaded. Yes big fan of that Uh two interesting items out of the core rules for me Core rules change number one. We unscrewed the pooch on the the modifier slash set of value thing our our uh Collective nightmare is now over it works exactly how we think it works It's just and it's clarified. It's in con it's in stone It's still it's solved Just put the numbers together That's the number Just like you would we would all have done if not told anything else easy, right Um So there we go Uh The other fun thing was if a scenery rules if the scenery rule sorry for an awakened wildwood can no longer be used Because a smash to rubble do any rules that interact with them stop working? For example places of power from the woodland depths this this showed up in the core rules not the Not the silveneth FAQ and the answer is no they still work fine So I don't know what you're smashing to rubble but nothing You cannot destroy seven earth woods It is another example of fun was detected and they just decided to be like nah They don't only these people get to have fun not these people. Yeah yeah So inherently the timbys don't get to have fun, but the johnnies do sure. Yeah, well, you know You got to pick winners and losers I suppose Uh, they but they added a very small change to objective marker control, which was just cleanup Which was the the contestation happens after Any abilities used before the first battle round begins have been resolved Just so it's plainly obvious that if you have a pregame move and you walk out You can then take the point That's how everybody played it anyways So, uh, you know, it's not too surprising Um, but a good clarification. That's fine. All right on the ghb side Uh, you know a couple of the Battle plans got cleaned up like there's no way in lurkers below to take multiple in the same turn Um, and then like stuff off of battle lines drawn that was interesting battle lines drawn is that where the four quadrants are each An objective and so that was having funky rules interactions with like can I set up my faction terrain because I can't be Three inches from an objective if I'm in the objective, right and they were like, yeah, it's just just Yeah The answer is just like it's it's fine It's fine Don't worry about it Which is by the way the correct answer like I don't have any problem with that Um, and then everything else is just Do I lose or gain or remain? Galatian veterans in battle line and now the simple answer is just Yes Were you at the beginning you still are did you get summoned in you are right like You just are if you meet the criteria if it says battle line on the thing If you're then you're in you're in the club. Congratulations Right if you did meet the criteria at one point in time.  It's okay.   It's simple. They are what they are great um Little cleanup on stuff like coalition units gays of gur they gave it an end An end times it doesn't just have that unit for the whole game It's nice was nice of them um prize of galay is activated objectives only as we were all playing it in the presence of idols for the inspiring icons thing We specifically left out like Lord croak And the incarnate units cannot be picked as idol units these It's like the lightning bolt picture that's like screw this guy specifically, you know Yeah, yeah, just like it's like the incarnates I get it makes sense to me lord croak I mean he has a like often self healing immortal frog But what a hilarious call out that he gets lumped in here with the incarnate so There's so there's how many things that can Super heal or can sure you can't die and but no croak croak you Minding your own business. Nobody's talking about you for a while. You you're the target. We're We're coming for you. Yeah Okay, not like a laurel who could just teleport herself back into the battle from dead. Nope. She's fine. She's okay You know not Sure, it's fine. I mean like whatever right? I'm I'm okay with it It's a funny call out that he's not allowed to be an idol People will forget this and name this guy as an idol. This is one of those things that like I get why you did it It's probably healthier overall people will not like many people will forget this, right? I think it's funny enough. No one will forget Everyone will be on point like no no Not that guy. No idol for you frog. Yeah, it's fine Manzac. Yes, the consensus is it is better to be a bounty hunter than gv But I'm not I'm not celebrating the the permutation of gvs. I'm celebrating cleanness of rules Which is something to be celebrated simplicity Yes, I like simplicity So, uh At any rate croak and the incarnate which sure they're both super tough hard to kill things so fun I'm I cool enough The uh, I mean like I think if you were going to go down this road by the by It would just be like if you really wanted to sort of make this better because Part of what they're trying to push on Is that part of the the battle plan is about killing other idols with your idols, right? And so it's it's often hard to To do that and and obviously as they said yes as somebody in the comments said like lord croak's ability is what kills him The incarnate's ability is what kills him, right?  Yeah So like I I do understand by the way the rules interaction here everyone but The it's still funny to me because I I still submit that the better way to have done this Would have been to just leave out Like most monster heroes or heroes over 10 or something like that. You know what I mean Uh, just so you're not incentivized to like take your that hammer and try to ram it down someone's throat or something like that Which is also partially here Because the reality is you could have squared away those rules in another way like you could have just added a thing Here's a here's a different way. They could have FAQed it. You ready? If lord croak and the incarnate are removed And they were damaged this turn by an idol unit Then the points count See they could have done that too. Now. That's not clean rules text. You have to you have to button that up But it's not like it had to go this way, but it's still funny.  Okay Right, there we go Yes, uh, let's talk about other things we were surprised not to see oh quick cleanups We finally got the clarification as we all knew I I'm shocked that people are still pushing for this But that you cannot use the old Subfactions for night haunt when the new book is out like Yes Correct. You say that you say that there were no equivalencies of these In the in the new book and it was in all of the like war scroll builder and all that stuff It was still present. I understand but it's a faction you have new sub factions hence old sub factions are gone I understand that but like but it's I understand where the confusion was because it came to a point because I kept seeing it all in all the official stuff Sure, it raised the question of like well, is this legal? Because it's actually a legal build option in their own worst-world builder and in the app like it was in the app too like it's not just Um, so like the fact that that needed to be clarified. I think was a legitimate needed thing It is worth saying this also means that the night haunt dodged the bullet another time for having them of terminexus Adjusted so it does have an 18 inch setup range at this point in time. Yeah, I've been taught Yeah, yeah, I understand. I still don't I still don't buy it, but there we go um the uh But yeah, so things we didn't see okay James what didn't you see in the FAQ you were you were expecting to see The point is good the night haunt thing. By the way, I agree with you. Go ahead James The removal of the last three pages for daughters of canebook That is obviously mistake because it's not in the german version or any other foreign uh non english versions of the FAQ So what that does is the endless spell especially specifically the snake The has a monstrous action and since it's the old war scrolls that's removed Okay, all right Bear what about you? What did what didn't you see that you expected to see? so I have what I didn't see and What I'm still like in my own personal world would like clarification on but I didn't see anything runless bells I really thought I didn't think we'd kick the purple sun out because it's fun I love watching glockens die on a roll of one. It's it's funny But I didn't think they would tweak them at least a little bit At this point I didn't come later. What I would love to see is how does Uh mightiest makes rightiest interact with proving grounds Because that's been talked about amongst a couple different gts Because the rules are in the battle plan not on or on the battle pack on the battle plan It's still up the air even as a selfish gargant player. I think Proving grounds trumps mightiest makes rightiest, but I just want somebody to like Give the yeah, you're yeah, you're right. Like this is how we intend it yeah Yeah, I mean my general feeling is on purple purple sun is uh at this point we can um We can go ahead and just go ahead knock that bad boy up some points. That's fine. Let's just start there Let's just start by resetting that thing to 120 points. That's our that's my that's my opening bid Okay, I'm willing to go higher, but it's definitely 120 point endless spell base It is so easy for that thing to make its points back like so I believe And and so like if that's if that's the thing if we're just gonna leave it here Um the game I I was doing some tournament practice not this last weekend Is your dream marathon but the weekend before Then you know I put that thing out right away And it never got to spell because the person just couldn't roll high enough just kept missing it And it just cruised around and ate a bunch of stuff and gave me a huge bonus to punch through their armor and I was like Cool, this seems seems great to me The size is what kills me The fact that it has yeah, it's got about a three inch base on his longest side and then you know a six inch radius So you've got like this 15 inch diameter bubble for an extra rent. Yep Mm-hmm. You're just taking up just this trunk out of the map. I think it's hilarious. It's so huge I see no problem with it working as intended Um says the night halt player It should be an ever who has nothing worth killing and is immune to the next one to save. Yeah. Yeah That you should definitely invest a portion of your list in that thing. Sure. Sure. Um, Definitely So uh at any rate it is it is at least for now still at 70 points. Uh, so A plus I guess Um, hopefully I'm sure we'll see a change of that though. Like I have just the opposite of doubt Like it will go up It will prepare yourself mentally now. It will go up Yeah, I mean if it were me like I would jump it to 100 And then just see where we're at and if it doesn't work jump it to 120 like that's what we did with uh, uh With uh warp fire Yeah, I mean Like it's it's 120 at any rate. Okay, cool. What else we got base or anything else in the news. I think that's it, right? I think that's it. Okay Good stuff. Well then Let me go ahead and mark our time here Uh, awesome. All right gentlemen, let's do some uh pick of the week Uh James you want to start us off? My pick of the week is Uh Guy named goes by all stars 666. He painted a dankhold frogoth the the leader And he I have it here because it's going to be presented a channel And you can't justify how much it's put into this because I don't have The light because it also glows in the dark when you with the proper light. So it shines So you do all kinds of luminescence and just shout out to him for just Taking the time putting that much effort into a model. That's beautiful That's awesome. Very cool. All right, uh, we will we will link that Uh that individual down below there What would you like to share with everybody? So for this week, uh We've been talking a bunch with rerolling ones And we're talking about moving forward doing a kind of a segment called build it with bear that we you're gonna Sit here in the bear den and we're gonna start doing things that are a little bit hobby adjacent building bases Or just play boards dioramas just getting our construction on so I really love a lot of the not stereotypical Channels for our hobby. So I've been following like black magic craft nerd forge and Geek gaming scenics because they're just fantastic builders and they have this wonderful creativity That has been really fueling part of the hobby that I love and that's just building dioramas and things that just make things a little more scenic a little more interactive nice nice awesome channels all and and very uh Good good very solid recommendations completely back that all the links for those channels Down in the description. Tom I'm just gonna spruke Our guests because they didn't do it themselves. It's not really Uh reroll ones they put out fantastic content. Check it out. Uh, yes. Thank you. Thank you I I they will of course be linked down below Uh, and I have very much enjoyed all the battle reports you guys have been in recently I love to see the content rolling out. Like I said, you guys clearly have invigorated The re-rolling ones crew got him out there again. We were getting the battle reports out and I couldn't be happier about it I appreciate it. Thank you the Uh, my pick of the week is I'm gonna have I'm gonna have two so first off, uh Andy and henry and the call to paint team Did a whole show dedicated to ratman and scaven and I like if you think I'm not gonna recommend that You're crazy. Of course. Go check that out. The call to paint guys are awesome And they were a scaven focus show is is perfect Of course also Our good buddy Hey woe twitch It's faq day and that means it's time for hey woe reacts And uh, he has all of the best Twitter hot takes about the faq His twitter will be linked down below so you can go catch up on all of his thoughts They're fantastic and very funny and as always the man has An aserbic and perfect wit okay gentlemen Let's get into some hobby time here Uh James, what are you working on man? What's on your table? What are you doing? What are you been working on? I have two things I'm working on one because it's tedious is the clan rats. I think I'm at 180 now uh I have a problem. I know uh, but I uh to take a break from that. I've been also working on thank well He's physically on my desk right now working on the model So I want to get my scaven ready now, especially not the aphid keys out I can try to get a bunch of games and get ready for the next tournament It's uh emerald sea open at the end of august here in washington northwest Nice nice excellent excellent taking the rats To emerald city. I wish you bring it home bring it home brother. That's what we want to see jack jack was trying to talk me into it and it like slotted right in the middle of like mash con nova And my kids birthday and I was Yeah, that's tough. That's tough. Uh, I just I don't see a problem. I think you should come visit us. Yeah I intend to I intend to it'd be awesome. Absolutely. Yeah We'll get out there at some point for sure James or sorry. I said james bear. Apologize Bear what was on your hobby table? right now i'm finishing up a uh deepkin shark for a buddy because we're Meeting up at the boysy open if anyone's in the boysy area Really great tournament ran by erin from the corsairs Really great time. It's gonna be a great weekend So i'm finishing that up because one of my teammates didn't quite have enough sharks But for myself, uh, I'm working on some ogres. It's the year destruction. So I gotta be finishing my destruction armies I I support this fully Uh, I love it more more destruction, especially if it shows up on the channel is a good thing to me Uh, tom, what about you? What you're working on? Do you are you getting back to your stuff after that long weekend? Nope, uh, I Have so many side projects going on right now that I just I haven't gotten back to painting yet Which is sad because I have a commission for somebody for nash con And I have stuff of my own to paint for nash con Yeah, you better get amongst it my friend And I want to do another board for nash con and I probably won't be able to start all of that until august 8th So that's when it'll start and the question is is can I get it done in those like two weeks leading up to nash con?  You have to build a bear. Yes, exactly there. That's that's your segment right there. That's your segment Uh for myself Uh, my honest answer is I have painted absolutely nothing this week Because I was traveling on the road last week then as soon as I got home tom showed up And we did a marathon for of d&d for four days straight And that went until monday when I shipped her five days straight really realistically because that's when the when the last person left And then yesterday I had to spend all of that. I'm working on like editing a video and catching up from not doing anything over the weekend Uh, which I still haven't finished that video today. So, um, but I will get it done soon and then Projects galore coming but but not this week nothing. I've painted nothing It's like wow. I'm yeah, I know I've got the shakes over here. It sucks I don't know what to tell you man. It is what it is uh, but It's just been no time So I mean I'm working on my other hobby which is putting together the videos for the channel of things I painted So there we go All right, uh with that gentlemen Shall we talk about some cruel boys? Oh boy. I just realized yes Oh cruel boys. Okay, cool. Give me a second here. Uh, I realized this is gonna look really weird everybody. I'm sorry There we go Uh, I realized I didn't have the presentation open because I had closed it to email it and then forgot to reopen it and reset it up Because I had all those dumb FAQs All right, great. Oh look at you I know Being bad at doing a show. There we go now. It's here. Sorry everyone Cruel boys revisited Okay Let's talk about these guys Cruel boys Revisited um This was one of the launch armies of the addition And by my estimation it has suffered from the launch edition curse Just like corn did and just like before it and just like knight hunt did before it Where for like a half a second everyone thought there was going to be something there it We got played a little It kind of got a skew build to it and then And then it just felt like a rock Right. Yep Corn probably experienced this the least since there were so many janky corn builds early, but nonetheless it still happened Uh So basically if you launch in an addition against stormcast Your book is you are you are done for you're a lot. You're done. They beat you. That's the point That's been there. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, they're not a lot of you better. No so What I want to figure out here. This is as much like a revisited as it's like a Uh, as much as it's an autopsy, I guess like a root cause analysis. I don't know what this is Can we can we can we salvage this? That's what you just said. I think so. Yes. I think that's right Uh, all right, let's get into it So my overview is Let's just start. Let's just lay down some basics Like on paper if you just kind of read it you'd be like, yeah, this is a pretty competitive army Like it doesn't read like something that's going to be broken or super top tier, but it reads like a competitive army You know, you got mortal wounds on hit army wide.  You got a mix of both melee and shooting very interesting in destruction Not not a lot of shooting going around the destruction world because you got a pretty pretty decentish amount of it vis-a-vis your percentage wise You got some quality monster heroes that can that can do work And you got some decent utility spells and command traits And yet You know, it's just not coming together. They launched with a decent sized range. I wouldn't call it good, but like decent More than iron jaws. Yeah more than yeah more than iron jaws, right? So like it could have been good because iron jaws have been consistently at least competitive Throughout their existence and they've only ever had seven units basically Um Both other armies in their tome have been seeing success Which is by the way incredible because bone splitters was I I mean I wrote it off and yet Apparently you can't keep a good savage orc down So what is holding them back, right? That's the question we're going to explore today What's holding them back? What's good? What could use work? What would changes would we recommend? What do we want to see in the future? That's what we're doing. All right So Did I miss anything here not in the problem like not not what's holding them back? Don't we're not going to answer that yet? We'll we'll get there But is there anything else that you think I missed they're like on paper reads like, okay This is kind of how the army works. It seems like it would be okay James no You're spot on everything I read on paper I had all kinds of theories of how to play this and I showed it to my first rtt with them And I went oh and three and didn't even come close to beating anything because everything that I thought worked on paper when I put it up against Some of the meta that was out there like daughters of kane Not even the meta. I think I played Matthew uh that That's uh beast of chaos and I just The the hunker down and just wait for them to come to you concept that they had going especially early on Just made me just blew my mind and I haven't really picked them up except for casual games because I still think they're fun. I just Competitively I couldn't do anything with them. I was limited. Yeah Bear any thoughts from you So I think yeah, I think even more than just their broad overview of rules They have a couple units like dobby Like people love dobby because the big plus one to hit bubble is awesome Uh, but they're supposed to be kind of a gorilla tactics army, but sylvaneth did it better Sure Sure. Yeah. Yeah, so I was gonna make everything just got from sylvaneth Yeah, everything we got from sylvaneth. Yeah, we should have seen a good handful of that and a maybe a little bit of difference in the cruel boys Yeah, I mean this really felt this this really feels like bad sylvaneth Right like, uh, we're the we're the ambushing secret unit in the swamp and it's like, you know, it grows in swamps trees Boom got him. It's just like, you know Yeah So not only that like the things that they do well like mortal loon shooting Yes Like other units in the game do it better sure And and at the end of the day in my mind, they're missing some fundamentals And they're actually like that's where they're lacking. They're lacking on the fundamentals Not on the tricks They have some of the good tricks, but they're like, but it's just bad bones You know, it it literally is a night haunt 2.0 situation Okay, I could see that that's pretty accurate And we were talking about it earlier the one of the things I would love to see is A hammer that isn't a Galatian veteran Right, so you can buff up a couple of their units Uh, but like the gut ripas even if you buff them up, they're still susceptible to bounty hunters Even if they're bounty hunters themselves, you know iron jaws have war gruntas that dodge the Galatian veteran Can be bounty hunters and get that that boost cruel boys needs They need gruntas, you know, they need that that hammer unit Yep But they also existed kind of like if and then there if you do these things then good things can happen But the there's so many variables to kind of lower the chances of those good things happening Yep And I don't get specifics because I think we're going to get into it next we are going to get into specifics. All right So I just very want to quickly I just have a couple pages from the book in here We're not going to go through the whole book But obviously I just want to remind everybody who might not be as familiar We're basically dealing with three primary Uh, allegiance abilities the venom encrusted weapons, which as I mentioned your auric units on a hit of a six Will deal mortal wounds equal to the damage they would have done otherwise Like again on paper that is a super good rule Right? Yes, amazing. Yeah They have their wa which they can call which is not as good as the iron jaws one anyway But it's also not bad. You know once per game you can make your general and two other units all fight first Right or fight in order. I guess I should say. Yeah, not really fight first, but but jump the order Okay, then you compare it to bone splitters who the four upward for a full combat Yep, or or even the iron jaws where you're getting bonus rend and charge and stuff like that right where it's just struck so good so good Uh, you know, you're you're sort of like bad version of mini smashing and bashing here Which is again just to rule the iron jaws have all the time Um, it just doesn't feel like it's it's carrying the weight And then your dirty tricks right, um Which again you look at these and you're like, okay Mine is one to hit from enemy units in the first battle round. That seems pretty good You know your lethal surprise your disappearing act, uh, where you can pick different enemy units and and uh And put them into reserve and stuff like that. You're like, yeah, yeah, this is this is good stuff Right Yeah, uh, you're covered in muds. They're not visible But the part of it if you just like read the rules text of what it's doing You're like, yeah, it's pretty good. Right. It's doing a cool thing The problem with it is it's very easy for any of those to affect. Oh, by the way, you can pick this Uh, you can pick these at the start of the game, right?  So again It's a it's the perfect thing you normally think is good like yay. I can Vary it per game per opponent, right? It's not a grand strat. I have to commit to But the issue is is that everything except noisy racket I'm rolling dice and it's very easily statistically likely for me to get zero Yes, because I'm aiming at those four pluses right like getting Zero four pluses on three dice is not it's not the modal outcome is not the sort of the average But it's certainly not but it happens quite a bit. It's not Even close to out of the norm Yeah, just like 18 for a croak Yeah, sure Right, it happens But at the same time this I think this was the beginning Of the tech writers really having great themes like the the armors are coming out thematically Like these dirty tricks were so cool. We all wanted them to just Be great because they were such a cool theme. You know like we've seen with a lot of these new armies Agreed flavor wise. These are all on point right execution wise You know that's that's it and it really does come down almost completely To the roll three dice for each four plus mechanic Right. Yeah Uh, that's where the problem lies If it was just like roll a d3 and choose that many things instances of this or a d3 plus one or something like that Total game changer in as far as the usefulness of these or the utility I should say of these of the dirty tricks so okay All right, and then I just wanted a real quick look over here at the command traits and artifacts They do have a legendarily crappy set of artifacts as they're like all once per battle with multiple of multiple Of their once per battle items Having a dice roll Where in just still like once per battle you trigger the thing then there's a dice roll and on A reasonably large percentage chance nothing happens Yes That is Pretty horrible Yeah, that's not great not great at all But they do have some interesting command traits like I don't want I don't want to poo poo their command traits because Most people take super sneaky because it lets you sort of Pull a unit off the board and reposition it anywhere on the board nine inches away Very potent very paddle very powerful into what it can do both in enabling Uh for potential alphas or objective gathering or other types of things or just general board control So like it's good. They have command traits that are valuable Which is nice. That's all right, and they do have things worth putting them on as well. I'll say Uh, you know you mentioned it already Tom on the fundamentals but they One of the things I think they did get right and I mentioned up top is they they actually have some monster heroes Or you know sort of monstrous heroes That aren't bad like that can do work that are valuable that I think are pointed Pretty close to accurately and like are punching where you'd want for that for that value It's it there's it, but there's an issue here. There is an issue here um, okay Anything I missed on the general allegiance abilities or command traits or artifacts No, you spot. I think because of the role I've always taken the eye pebble because I could get a five plus ward to the end of the turn to kind of weather a storm if someone's coming in strong and then The command traits super sneaky is great For what it does and mixed with covered mud It's a really good combination for your archers or any other unit. You don't want to get shot down. Yep Yeah, it's it's I feel like you know with destruction You mentioned the year of destruction bear, but this speaks to a broader point They always like to build in some amount of like wackadoo randomness into destruction Which is fine Like that's sort of in the traditional in the In the classic magic sense That's like their ability in their portion of the color pie destruction has wackadoo randomness. It has slot machine type elements to it The problem is they didn't make the payoff enough Like you're paying you're playing nickel slots here where if it pops up as a winner you get three dollars But they're significant They're significant because if you depend on one of these abilities that you have to roll three plus or four plus It's game changing from the beginning of the game, you know It's what you had intended to do is not going to happen. Right, right Yeah, and if they up the ante on these like I know jack Loves gamble armies and that's where we're polar opposites.   That's what that's what interests me of you going for destruction But I guess it's about the type of destruction some destruction armies lean a little more spike than others All right We should talk up just a brief moment about recent changes because there have been some and they're worth factoring into this discussion And that is with the most recent battle scroll they came out which you can download from the download section on warhammer community Two things changed number one For each gut rippas unit included in your army, you can take one hop grot slitters unit as a battle line unit Okay Fine cool. So now you don't have to take three units of gut rippas, but you still got to take two Yeah I really don't like these for x unit of of Thing you can take a y unit of thing as battle line when it's a unit yep, okay Because especially when it's another battle line unit because the math on that just never works beneficially unless you're playing a thousand points right, absolutely Uh, that you know Lumeneth always ran into this right where it was just like here's these extra 10 wardens or something sitting around for no reason That was always the case Where are you gonna say james? I'm sorry go ahead Oh, I think it Was close. I mean not just hops maybe even throw the art uh bolt boys in there So you can put bolt boys in with the grinning blades I think that may just open it up instead of just saying this guy this unit. Yeah It's it's definitely the gut rip as tax, which we're going to talk heavily about That will be a big part of this discussion when it comes down to it Um, and then the grinning blades change friendly grinning blades units are not visible to enemy models That are more than 12 inches away from them basically extending an ability they had in round one out to The whole game. So yeah, cool. Um, it's nice anti shooting tech Part of the problem is shooting is sort of on the decline right now as it is anyways Um, not always. They're still shooting armies. They're still quite viable shooting armies, but it is on the decline um The hard thing is right now if if the meta shifts to go back to your You know backboarded gunline Sentinel's long strike. It's like, okay, this is great But if you're sitting now in in a meta where, you know, ko is on the rise And they can fly high and they can come in close sylvaneth can get in close and then You know retreat fade away. Whatever they're gonna do Um, you know, we've seen slanesh on the rise with the bliss bob archers can run and shoot So you're starting to see a lot of more mobile shooting That kind of ties and pairs really well onto the purple sun. So this just it hurts, but it doesn't hurt They got to get a little bit closer, but they're also running and shooting flying and shooting They're they're doing plenty of mobile things To still be able to make this happen Yep. Yeah, I agree. It's you know the the difference in that rule if it was nine inches instead of 12 inches would be so Beyond massive But but here we are I will say I will say as a slight aside on this It is interesting when it interacts with spells More than when it interacts with shooting honestly at this point Because most spells require you to be able to see your target And there's there's plenty of 18 inch spells and debuffs that people try to throw around That basically you're out of range of unless the caster gets danger close So shorting people's spell range from 18 inches to 12 inches. That's not bad That's not bad Yeah, absolutely Um now, but I agree with you completely bear like that you're you're exactly right a lot of the shooting We're seeing is much more like It's much more mobile that gets to where it needs to get and then unloads, right? Uh, you know like five gossip at archers or something don't care about this. They're just gonna like Flurry flit up to exactly the 12 inches away and then And then when somebody charges them they leave Right Uh, you know and and my My argument here was it opens up the battle line of the army and tries to provide an alternative to big Yellers, but isn't enough and and and ultimately my answer is no. No, um, it just isn't um, so Um, cool Do do challenges. All right. Now we're gonna get let's dig in to the problems Right, let's talk challenges What are the headwinds against this army? Okay, I think number one has got to be battle line for most their existence until recently as we just covered Their only generic battle line was expensive and fairly fragile Yes, absolutely the cost of the even now the cost for the grading blades is I said grading blades got repes or it just Makes me wonder if it's a worth taking 180 points Yeah, it's pretty wild when you think about what that unit is and what it's doing like that It almost feels like where they went wrong was making them two wounds To sort of match the storm cast because No part of that unit reads like an elite unit But because it's two wounds it has to be priced like an elite unit right And yeah other than the fact that they get there they inherit the army rule for stabby stabs on sixes But this is a unit that otherwise is on a five up save Has a slow move like a you know, whatever a standard infantry move I don't want to say like they're not four inches or something, but they're slow The shield the shield ability is still an ability that you get the roll for so there's that if and then if I get this roll That is you get the minus It's there's just too many variables where if they just streamlined it like you said one wound make the If if they charge that you get this But there's too many if and then is to try to get this combo off plus the cost Yep, the I agree the shield the shield rule is basically what I would call worthless I think is the definition of that. Uh, it's just it's just bad Um, they're like to hit and wound is and and rend like their attack profile is not impressive You know if you have like the one inch weapon, it's two attacks on fours and threes and they're on big bases So like until they were Galatian veterans, they weren't even really if you took them in a unit of 20 It was sort of hard to even get them all fighting. It's much easier now. Thankfully, but the fact that they're Uh, the fact that they're still on a five up Yeah, you got 20 wounds, but those 20 wounds just evaporate in the face of bounty hunters I mean, there's a handful of people who Don't use the spears because they didn't buy the box set. Sure. Sure So they're stuck to fours and fours because right you can't really adapt that to anything else Oopsies um And then, you know, you've got this alternative battle line, which was really what was drawing Uh, so many people to Big yellers because it gave you some other option For battle line that didn't feel like pure tax Yeah, and the extra range too to the what you wanted to use with the sure like it was giving you range on It was it was it was a hat on a hat Sometimes but still it was there. Yep. And The problem with that is it's still fragile Yeah, right very fragile like bolt boys are not exactly a great wound to point ratio Right Uh, so five models. Yeah, five models. Yeah It's still very fragile on a low save with a low move and mobility Right that is by the way still inheriting Uh, you know galley vet if they show up as battle line Right and so getting absolutely wrecked if any bounty hunter gets near them Right And and I think that's really the name of the game with this army Um Fragile is sort of the challenge so much of this army feels like it's lacking the defenses and you know, I get it They wanted it to be this like ambush You know sneaky swamp force that like Ta gotcha, right? They didn't need defense, but the problem is that's not what they do That's just not how this plays they don't have the damage to do that They don't have the tricks to do that. They don't have the mobility to do that like None of those things work in that way They they really do feel like half baked sylvanas Right who do all of this better? Yes, they're The limitations on just the sneaky part. It's like Well, we're waiting for it to rain so the swamp could fill up with water So we could then be sneaky is essentially what what you're doing because there's so many variables to even get to that point Right that you probably missed a quarter or more to get that even happening Yeah, based off the rules Yep So so I'm gonna I'm gonna throw out a supposition and bear I want to see what you think about this I'm gonna I'm gonna come to you specifically for this. Okay All right I think so much of whether an army feels good to play or not and ends up being competitive or not Rests on are the things you feel like you have to take Or that you actually have to take in the rules Actually effective at doing anything do they have a valid role in the army? Okay And that's where this misses when I look at armies that that you mentioned iron draws earlier Right, you look at what you're taking there. Every one of those battle line has a role It's doing stuff Right. I'm not sad to take more insert iron draws unit here I'm happy to do it right And that's true for a lot of like Competitive armies, but also just fun armies. I mean do you think I do you think this is part of the problem just the The foundation of sand problem as it were Absolutely, so Nobody wants to pay A junkie tax You know You know when we're playing this game People want to have options one. So if you're looped into something that is just You're dumping 180 points times three or times two if you do hop grots Which what what are those hop grots? Getting you either, you know, what is that really solving except for just taking out some points You know if if you tell me as a storm cast player I have to start with three liberator units and that's it. That's all you get Oh, actually, you can toss anything at griffons With two of your liberators, but that's it. Nobody's gonna be happy.  We like to complain. We're gonna complain. You know, we want more. I want I want all hop grots I want the cheapest battle line possible and then I'm gonna throw Whatever every single monster and just you know an adams family reunion coming at you from the swamp It is what it is You know, it's like that tax is so high And I have higher points and mobility listed on here is my final two things and I really do think it's a challenge They are really paying some premium prices for some of these units for what often is not a premium effect right, yeah, I mean I'll you know, I'm gonna go ahead and just keep beating a dead horse of I play Gargantz because it's what I'm enjoying but if I had to take three man crushers And that's the beginning to my army And there's 170 points wanted that's cheaper than gut rip us. So I'm really preaching to the choir But you know 170 points each and like okay now my army begins In a negative, right? So yeah, I think You know, we'll we'll probably hopefully see some changes here. Just get a little more variety Pete when battle line is unlocked With the ghb's with f aq's and everything else that they come out people are always stoked because it just gives these new Options like oh man, I've got this new cool thing that is still great plastic Because it's been hiding on my shelf that I can now take as battle line, right? completely agree So understanding that I think these Are the challenges and and as Western warriors just said and I completely agree This only got worse In the current 3.0 world, right since the new battle pack Because so many of your things end up being forced into Galatian veterans that is say gut rip us and hobgots if taken as battle line That and as mentioned earlier if you take your bolt boys as battle line, right? They're just all automatically Galatian veterans and so instantly They just explode If they're touched Right, you might have made some argument previously for like a single unit of 20 gut ripas. Maybe could do some stuff But even 40 wounds is not that hard to lift for a hammer bounty hunter unit All right It's just it's just not what it used to be especially not as I stated just a moment ago on a five up save Yeah With an unreliable neg one to hit Very good shield Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly Uh, did I miss any challenges? Yes, I think that's their biggest one I think I'm sorry go ahead go ahead go ahead and field this one the the The variety of heroes you have which is a lot for the army Uh along with a lot certain ones are super cheap Having a limitations on the amount of heroes you can get and then forces you with the limited options of the other units Yeah, so you're you're stuck filling voids with Hobbes or gut ripas because well six Trogoths Didn't even reach the halfway mark for your army or are pretty close to it at least sure Uh, I see a couple people and I think it was uh, yeah, so, um uh sweat and the uh In the chat made the comparison between gut ripas and clan rats I want you to sit on that thought. I'm gonna make that comparison myself. That was one of the One of the things I wanted to talk about because it is actually an interesting comparison Okay Uh, all right I mean to put a pin on it like they just don't have any anvils They have zero They have zero anvils like I know that you said you mentioned in the fragile part Like but like let's drive this home. There is no unit to receive a hit here Right It doesn't exist Yep And there's no like there's no way to Like yes, you can chaff but all the chaff just explodes right and so There's no actually way to like mitigate incoming damage in any meaningful way Like you're in an incarnate is the best bet Or not play the actual just army, right? Like that those are that's what like anybody that is you do the mixed force rather than just um cruel boys pure Because there's just nothing in their list that can actually take a hit, right, right it's it's funny because Uh At the same time the one thing I didn't list is they do have quite a bit of pressure not to go to low drops as well Because the nature of how many like 10 plus wound heroes they have So they're it's very like they just don't fit in something like battle ridge easily. They often have higher drops.  It just means they have less building Optionality Battle regimen is still such a just a very viable Like high table thing too, you know a lot of guys are just Ignoring this Galatian veteran game to go to a low drop Monsters are free to roam the earth type mentality, right and we're seeing it a lot of the higher lists so you know like And they they don't play well in that world either right right Okay, but let's leave behind the bad for a moment and let's talk about the bright spots. Let's let's Let's cover some some good news. Okay Now admittedly some of these have some caveats uh, but But okay I think these are the bright spots. So I've picked four units here that I think are Pretty at least decent. Okay So my first pick is Derek Uh, or the slumdreck Guy Our little alligator faced monster now I I don't remember if I have the version of the named character up or not I don't honestly think there's that much of a difference between them. You get one more wound out of the special character He's five more points Like it's not it's not what your list turns on really he he plays a dumb game He plays a dumb minigame that no one cares about and doesn't actually do anything Um, but he's more or less the same hero This is a good model Uh, this thing does real damage Uh, you know, I've seen people talk about lists with like trip these guys Um, I don't hate that You know, like one takes fast and one takes super. You're super sneaky one So on and so forth, right like these guys can can can do some work Uh swamp boss scumdreck or the the whatever his non snatch a boss on sledge raker. There we go. I think they're silly full names um Like those guys are good.  He's a good model. He's got good rules He's good There are downsides Next up. I've got the uh, the breaker boss on mire brute traugas James, what do you think of this guy? Absolutely love what he's able to do with He hits really hard and it's one of the models you're not actually seeking the mortal wounds for because When it takes the damage prior to the attack If you get three damage you get three additional attacks and then the truck off itself hits really hard And so that's what I love about the model is the damage output. It's capable of Yeah Relatively efficiently priced too. He's like 180 points He's like one of the few he's sort of a bright spot of points in this army for a guy packing neg two rend With, you know, something like four to six attacks depending on what's going on um, so yeah, I mean It's cheap He's effective He's super cool and big wall too He uh, I saw a shout out to uh, Gregory the one down the so-called players He uses this guy in a big wall list You give him flaming weapon and then he just big hand of gork Toss him in with fasten And he gets to just get up in somebody's army like suicide And just see how much damage he can do and it's super cool to watch And just like a one unit turn one wrecking ball that you have to then deal with like Yeah, I'd love to see him find some just real love and cruel boys instead of big wall because he's Really great looking model and he does really cool things. Yeah And look, we should say, you know at 180 points, he's a 12 wound model Who, you know, he's not a monster, but he also doesn't have a damage chart Right. He just is what he is 12 wounds or one wound. He he he hits like he hits So that's cool. Good stuff Yes, I like it uh, the shaman I don't know if I have many caveats by the way for the breaker boss on trogoth I think he might just be like I guess maybe slow Slow. Yeah, it's slow. That's probably his caveat because he's only a five inch move. So okay, there we go That's his caveat.  He's turning on your, uh He's turning on your five ups to hit deal mortals Now the problem there by the way to relatively reasonable cost for a spellcaster. He's only 105 points However, the title of spellcaster might as well not even apply to him because to do his little poison thing We're gonna go right into this guy's caveat to do his little poison thing He can't cast spells Yeah That is correct Which um That that's unfortunate that kind of sucks Because you know Stat wise he's not exactly a hero worth much beyond that. He's a six wound dude on a five up save Honestly, don't even remember what his spell is Oh his personal spell Uh, he has the summon boggy mist which is actually a really good spell Like an incredibly good spell actually it's just hard to cast because it's not a seven If successfully cast until your next hero phase add one to charge rolls for friendly cruel boys oryx units on the battlefield And subtract one from charge rolls for other units on the battlefield. So It's a very good spell Like plus one to your charge minus one to your enemy's charge is a huge huge game change But the problem is he's so torn between what you're doing with this guy Because you want to be using poisons or elixirs if you want to do that Then it's like okay never mind. I don't get to be a mage anymore. I'm not a wizard right He's like the only he's like the only model in the game Who's suffering from like a standard dnd action economy? You know You've got like other models That are like doing all their special things And like it's a priest and they took an arcane tone. They're doing prayers. They're they're casting spells They're fighting they're going ham Right and this dude's like well, I can't give somebody this bottle of liquid and cast a spell. Whoa Yeah, whoa My bonus action is used up. Sorry. Yeah Exactly I've enjoyed using him with nashtuff because it's the only model in the entire army with the three plus save So I We use it's a big base. I try to use it for screening just because I can get Maybe two stacks and then all out defense That's very funny where we're going next but uh, but we'll we'll see my other one here with a question mark is just bullboys uh, and the reason I have this as a bright spot question mark is because like Their shooting is good Fine okay, but Is it though what I mean by that is just the it's it's good. It's perfectly good shooting I don't know that it's great shooting your your Point tom that other armies still do this better Stands out here and again these guys are fragile. They're definitely italian Uh, because they're just if something gets into them. Bye. Bye Yeah, so right that's right. Yes. Yes, you can put them into rain and make them not targetable Yes, you can you know stand and shoot most I mean if you roll the four ups, but yes Yeah Certainly certainly. I just yeah, it's just it's a mess Yeah, but the run and gun is the flavor of the week and these guys want to Sit and hide. Yeah want to be totally like they're not playing well into the Fundamentals of the game Wait exactly what you said the reason run and gun and all those kind of that kind of thing has become popular is because You look at a lot of the especially the the battle plans right now They're wanting you to move around a lot in the current season Right, there's quite a lot that you had to be here and now you got to go over there Or you want to be spread or you want to you know all this kind of stuff The idea of just like sitting still on terrain That's okay. If it's like maybe a unit that's in support It's not a windstrap No, you know all of a sudden your objective explodes in two directions, but you're hiding in the swamp. So right, sorry Yeah, like I've seen some people use six kurdoth as a firing platform But they're using six kurdoth because other things in their army are teleporting around striking and fading the wizard who's behind the kurdoth is like Throwing a purple sun 85 inches across the board through a random woods That guy's hitting the next table over You don't know how You know that purple sun is cast over on to just start throwing a lot of table one There's a wild one over there. It's just throwing it through the wild wood. Yeah Uh, it says I can cast through any Uh wild wood. It didn't say it had to be on this table Hey, and vince sped it here So then when when that has to be FAQed because some guy out there So, you know vince said I can cast it on that table like You heard it here this law vince said it that's that's how acceptable that is exactly correct Uh, all right uh Cool, so Yeah, that's these are the bright spots in my eyes weak spots I have two Glaring black holes. I'm not saying these are the only weak spots. I'm saying these are the ones that hit me the hardest Got rippus I just think we've talked about them a lot already Now I will make my clan rats analogy, which somebody already made earlier, but I agree completely Clan rats have Basically the same offensive power minus the mortals on sixes Okay For a hundred points they I get 20 wounds here. I get 20 wounds clan rats.  I have retreat clan rats have retreat in charge No, I ended by the way just a built-in bonus to run Uh, which is like which even though they have no run in charge. It's still quite useful I'm just for moving out and covering space and objective grabbing and stuff like that Uh, the 20 clan rats take up more board space have better board control and We'll either have the same or just slightly worse Number or sorry hit and wound numbers both have no rent Uh, but obviously yes the the the gut rippus can do mortals on sixes I'm not even counting their shields ability. I just don't think that's anything I just don't And the clan rats can regenerate because every battle shock phase d3 clan rats come back All right, they they reach what three inches Yeah, and they're and yes and that basic unit will have a reach of three inches Yeah, that unit of 20 will have a reach just out of the gate of three inches Yep On 25 mil bases too And the support and the support Sure, and there's like all sorts of synergy we could be doing. Yep clan rats, right? That just isn't found Error 404 gut rippus synergy not found, right? There's a couple things that of course you can do but it's just it's not as much and So when that when you put up that comparison Same basic attack profile Same basic save slower not as many tricks The fact that these guys can't retreat in charge when the when the scaven can and these are the the ambush swamp killers is just a very funny comparison Uh So it's it's I don't think it throws it into stark relief These guys are wildly overcosted when you put them into that kind of a relief, right? Now clan rats don't really do anything Either That is to say they don't kill anything. They don't fight their their purpose is to exist That's it. They are warm bodies. They sit there until somebody kills them, right? Mm-hmm, but they do that cheaply which makes them good which these guys don't do these guys are expensive Which makes them bad. I don't know elves to say it. It's that simple Yeah, right Yeah, yeah, I mean it hurts how bad they are it comes to the point value, right? You know I I could I could easily see these guys at 140 I really could And I don't think the game breaks in any way If you're talking with jack that was one of my biggest predictions is they would finally drop them in points But they gave us hops. It's about a lion's head Sure I heard you wanted a pony so Here's a picture of a dog So here's a chihuahua right like these are not equivalents Right The other guy I have in here is the weak spot and it's a shame because I really actually do love this model Is the the boss on on nastu I know you said you like this guy because he's the only dude with the three up save And I agree. That's you know a thing He has the only three up save around which Okay, fair is fair. That's not terrible But my issue with this guy is he's 170 points For a 10 wound hero So instantly he's at the worst level of wounds Yeah, yep cannot benefit from cover Screws up your battalions has the worst of everything, right? I'm not even sure he like really punches at his weight for 170 Maybe maybe not we could argue about that like his dog has neg 2 rend, which is okay but if you want the Abilities just you're just gonna either take the one on foot Or lean into it and take the big guy on the bird. Yeah This guy is in the cursed middle ground Uh where I just don't I don't see a roll for him. That's the problem. Am I wrong? I agree with you the as he has a decent save, which is cool That's the only way I used him. He didn't survive. He has the the nastuff itself as a decent attack Which I think it's a minus two run but I Only used him as a screen because the base is large and he has a three plus save and with the I was able to get Two plus save on a corn dragon Yeah, I mean when I look at him and I look at the the guy on bird Right, so the boss on on the vulture the guy on the vulture is only 70 points more I'm getting four wounds now. I lose a save. He's admittedly. He's at a four up instead of a three up, which is dumb but Like obviously that guy should be a three up But not only do I still get the same uh All part of the plan where I can stop people from running to battle shock, which is admittedly relevant Okay I also get commanding view so I can you know, I can double tap Which is to me So worth it unbelievably worth it and Uh I just I don't understand the situation if that guy on the gnash tooth was seven or eight wounds Yes, and a hundred and fifty points or something. I I or a hundred and fifty five hundred and sixty out of somewhere in there Right, I'd say okay I could maybe see it Or not a leader On top of that This is the new cavalry. We're just demoting him. Yeah, just demote him down You gotta buy five of them and that's your Calvary now or something. You're maybe only gotta buy two He's just your elite Calvary.  They become fulminators effectively. Yeah Yeah So Uh They're both bad I don't know what else to say There's a lot of moving salt of them enough Yeah, let's let's move on to second look units that I just want to have some quick discussion around I'm not saying these are in any way good. I'm just saying They're there. I wanted to have a discussion around them sure All right, let's talk dobby first our little our little buffer guy Obviously, he's great in in gits. So he's all he's a great model just not for this army Yes, okay. Yeah, so if you take cragnos and dobby from You know the orc war clans and then you put them in a gits soup and just you know kind of slosh that around like Oh, yeah, now you have a list. We've combined three different things. It's it's cool. Yeah Is there any world where you want to take this guy? Excuse me outside of of gits yes I want to take him because he has he has good rules. It is plus when I hit bubble It's a nice big large bubble. I want to take him What am I going to Give him for a supporting cast. I think we've beat that dead horse I Give me a unit that he can support right and then yeah, he's awesome. He's Great looking model cool rules. I love him voted best ally in the game. Yeah, sure Okay Uh, let's talk about the our our our gobsprac There are our cragnos speaker here our our caster on on vulture Is this guy ever worth it in your estimation james? What what are you what are you feeling on this guy? What are you rating old gobby? Old old sprack He is One of my top three favorite models in the game Is and and it's actually what appealed to me what crowboys is this model and no I would never take him I would never take him Because I would take him for a casual game but for tournaments Something to that effect. He just doesn't do what he's supposed to do So I I did kill marathi with the counterspell though because I wrote above us but outside of that he'd do much The spells in the game are too expensive and he doesn't get any bonus to those spells So you can't take anything to help you re-roll those you do get that once per game 3d6 roll if just Like I wouldn't take him. I would take the other bird it's interesting because This is an army that actually has some decent spells, but they have bad spellcasters each This is the problem I love him. He's beautiful. It is. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, you want a caster in your army. Well, sorry. You need to take an entire centerpiece So now you've got a caster plus.  Yeah to get to range without using a mirror for The hex that gives no award saves. It's too risky Yep I'd rather have a hundred and five model cast that spell. Yep. Sure. Sure. Uh, all right Hobgrots I'm giving them a second look here just because more or less I wanted to set them up that with the battle line change They're interesting because they can alleviate some of your attacks, but to me Shouldn't these guys just be battle line? Yes Turn the beginning Yeah, or like Link to a hero Link to a sub faction. Yep Thank you. Like sure. I'm looking at some other way to optional battle line through something. Yeah. Yeah, fine Yeah, I'm sitting here painting ogres. Like I can take an ice bra hunter and get 55 point ice or uh, frost sabers Right. Yeah where I would love to study 20 units 20 models in the unit something to that effect. It would be just because I left So you can run it up to 60. Sure. So they could be your mass bodies thing Yeah, just increase some 20 points and Not that 100 not another 80 points Uh Yeah, I I think that they're on the border of like they of where they could have been something interesting But as is I obviously they die instantly, but I'm not necessarily opposed to that in this case Sometimes it's good to have things that just are cheap but fill a roll. That's okay They are quite easily handing your enemy battle tactics.  Maybe if your things are going well or if they had 20 models in the unit My last one is our banner guy Mr. Banner guy Now, why do I have banner guy in this list on the second look list? Five plus that five plus There it is. That's exactly right because banner guy brings a five plus spell ignore So in a world where endless spells are rampaging around the board and you know spell casting where we're probably on the edge of Seeing tremendous spell casting power coming out whenever we get our our zinchen Lumineth books, right? So maybe mr. Five plus guy is suddenly worth a look at now. That's all I'll say so I don't have a hope and a prayer. Sure Putting up a hail mary. I'm digging here man, but I'm trying I mean that rolling a one on the Uh God models for the is a hail mary, isn't it for the purple sun? I don't know Like like that that rolling ones is literally just icing. Yes. Yeah, it is absolutely So whether I roll that or not that's not what I'm making on it's that penalty of saves Yeah, I don't disagree rima said banners cool, but you used your hero slots already. Yeah, you're not wrong Hero slots. Yeah, he he's not wrong at all. It's it's a question of could it be worth it If there's that much spell power around maybe suddenly you'd prioritize one of them in there I I don't know like is it is it the answer that that dude just needs to lose the leader status? Maybe Yeah, that would that would be it would help with a lot of cases in the leaderboard to hear like the trogoth and Whatever else. Sure. If he was just a banner guy It's just better guy He just roams around. He's a banner guy. It's fine Yeah, you know what gary and the chat said too. He brought something to have a sub faction for battle line dobbies In a world full of like battle line turtles And battle line magma dross like There's a lot of stuff in here that would be fun battle line You know the what was the slow moving about the snatch of boss You know the gnash tooth like man those those will be fun battle line All right, are you gonna go five in a row? Maybe not, but would they be fun? Yeah, that'd be a fun list Hey, if we can turn Rune suns on magma droth into battle line We can turn dobby into battle line. I agree completely. It's a great point Yeah All right Going forward Let's let us cast our eyes into the future And talk about kind of what are the things that we would like to see Here's my list. These all have question marks because these are all things we could do okay, so Expand the battle line that seems like a good one. We just talked about it Lower points on gut rippas seems good reliability on dirty tricks. Maybe make them not so easy to get nothing out of Maybe make the skull bugs do anything Just anything I would accept anything I read the text My eyes glazed over and I immediately forgot what the text was.  I'm correct. It's just I just had to read it I just had to read it Again, because I forgot that I played I played cruel boys. Yeah, it's not surprising at all Uh more tricky defense options and mobility options You know, this feels very much like if they're going to be an ambush army if they're going to be these Hunters these sneaky hunters and the swamps Then they should just have more of that. It doesn't need to be exactly like sylvanuth does they could take their own Twist on it. There there's plenty of room to play in that space They could have rules where they under certain conditions can just pull people back into reserve And then reset them up stuff like that like on the board off the board of them disappearing into the swamp You know, there could be many different takes Besides the the teleport to woods and strike and fade like that's how sylvanuth do it fine But there are plenty more options that could have been explored Right. Yes. Yeah Lastly additional units It's not always the first thing I run to I put it last because I think it's everybody's go to when they're not happy with the options they currently have and It's fine. Sometimes you can fix an army by adding additional units But that shouldn't be necessary I I hope we do see additional units, but if again if we can keep iron jaws competitively functional For six years on seven units We can get there. This can be done Okay It's not like we're dealing with some sort of technical impossibility The proof point is in their book It's the pages right before this And it's just shocking but but that being said we're gonna we're gonna do a little theory on we're gonna do a little fun Fun examination of potential additional units. Did I Miss anything here? What what did I miss if like what other options that we have would you would like to see James you've you've been playing the army. You can start us off. What what would you love to see? I'd like the concept of what you were saying with the mobility Say you had a terrain piece where if Certain things happen like say it's near terrain. It could actually Scoot back to home base essentially because they're hunker army as it is So being able to get out of danger to hold up a charge and then come back To to defend, you know gobsmack or whoever else in your army So I think a terrain piece would be a cool idea with the whole bog concept Okay Cool Bear, what about you? Yeah, we touched on it that with the new battle plans running gun as a thing Why is there no running gun? Yep. Why are these guys like the masters of the swamp? Gorilla tactics and there's no running gun In their whole thing.  Give me, you know the five. I don't care about the wounds Does anyone care about the wounds are going to die regardless So give them one wound make them five units give them more shots like make them Slap a lot harder than they can. They're they're they do right now. I mean I Like all that you mentioned it earlier bear, but it's worth repeating here Like if we were going to add a unit something in the the heavier cab Uh, it doesn't need to be pigs exactly It could be for example three wound cab or something or four wound cab or or whatever or we could go farther We could do Nash tooth cab and make a fulminator style super heavy cab where there are two in a unit But but either way things that are dodging the Galatian veterans that are really good bounty hunters and high mobility Sure, that could that could be a great expansion if we're going to talk additional units I'm just saying if you put orcs on alligators You've got my money Like do they are you do these have to be new units or can these be tweaks that can that can move the needle I think many of the things you could do here would be tweaks a lot of my list is tweaks right is Battle line changes points changes Just just rewrite the rules on dirty tricks at this point. It's been more than a year. It's cool. Just rewrite them Just yeah, I mean what I would say like one easy low hanging fruit is because they're supposed to be like all sneaky and ambushy, right? Like they're hiding in terrain.  You'll probably hate events and I accept that.  I'm not sure. I love how it would make them want to play but I I'm not saying that like I'm not saying that Like it creates a weird incentive structure. Yeah, it's certainly not helping their mobility problem But or or how about this when a unit is wholly within three inches of a terrain piece Sure, like is that in other words if they're within claiming range of it, right? Yeah, or the idea would be is that like the you know, like Like uh swamp lurkers or something like that, right? So basically they're making terrain pieces swampy You know, I know that that again, we're already playing on on sylvaneth spaces, right? But guess what? This is already sylvaneth. This is destruction sylvaneth like we've already talked about that.  Yeah, you ambush, but it has to be close to the side Or you know, you ambush, but it has to be near terrain. Sure. Whatever. Yeah, just give it a little tweak So it's not the same thing is you know a different army, but These guys are are prime candidates for deep strikers 100% just popping up out of the swamp. Yeah, they're lurkers Let them like surprise Let them lurk Yeah, like and I know dirty tricks has you can put some units in terrain. Whatever, you know, that's fine like That just needs to be revised cleaned up made more reliable great Like allegiance abilities shouldn't be a roll of the dice Yep, we should have learned this with gets right You know, I I didn't mention him, but it's worth mentioning that a lot of people in the comments have been talking about You know taking crag nose and taking an incarnate And hey, I don't disagree that you can do a lot of work if you throw 1100 points of non Cruel boys into this army as it were. Okay, but it's not really a cruel boys army Right whenever we talk about this I I always like to frame it of working with the the core elements of the army Right, right because it should be It should stand on its own right Much as a movie that's part of a trilogy or something I should be able to watch that one movie and still enjoy the story But then also watch it as part it should also be functional as part of the larger story I don't think an army should only work If you take this seven-hour point god model and shove it in there that shouldn't be the required play style So yes, it can do work obviously with crag nose or with an incarnate But incarnates might not be around forever or might not be as good or might not be the viable choice You know, I shouldn't have to take a seven-hour point god model that gets bend to purple sun To make my army valid Although he's pretty resistant to purple sun, but nonetheless I mean this topic I feel personally attacked and find crag nose to be a perfectly wonderful Viable fixed as any destruction army. Sure. I'm not against him. Don't get me wrong. I like crag nose a lot I think he's cool and fun. I want him to be functional in this I just don't want the only valid build to be start with crag nose All armies are 1,300 points, right like that That doesn't feel good. That's not why you get into cruel boys You get into this because you want to play this army So, yeah, yeah, but do you want to point out in the chat? They did suggest genes that are called like deployment and uh with the ambush concept. Oh, yeah, the ambush tokens you can place around Yeah, so so if you don't know what that is for the people watching it's you put a token down and you don't know what unit that is Right, so you know there's a unit there, but it could be gobsprack. It could be gut ripas. It could be Hobbes, but they're tokens then Yeah, I think that would be fantastic for this army. That's super cool One of the don't the gene stealer cults also have a like a crossfire crossfire Yes, we're like if if they're on both sides They get you in the crossfire then they get some big bonuses That would be another interesting thing to do because The kind of thing you could explore because they are an ambush force They're trying to pop up on all sides if you surround you and then ah collapse on you Sort of you didn't see him coming. So sure. Yeah, great a plus. Love it Me too. That's great. Yeah all right Cruel boys unit wish list um full credit goes to this particular person listed down at the bottom On reddit because I found this when I was image searching around and I thought it was pretty cool I don't know that it's exactly what I would pick But this person went to a lot of trouble to make nine potential unit additions And so they're they're credited down there. So thank you to L Qba on reddit. I do know who not know who who you are could be a good person to be a terrible person I have no idea but I'd say random reddit user who made a very cool image So I'm using that image and crediting them for their hard work Uh Their options the items that they added were a kill a boss on myer weyvern Small than a maw crusher So kind of interesting option for a purely combat focused basically kill a boss wizard I'm not sure it's or not wizards. I'm sorry a big hero Not sure it's not crossing over with the bird guy, but I get why they want it Somebody who loves the bone splitters you can have a second centerpiece When bone splitters gets one Yeah, yeah, totally fair totally I mean, are you not counting the Are you not counting cragnos because he can't go in that army too, you know Uh, I guess that counts rogue.  Ah, but James what if it wasn't a monster? What if it was just a really big orc? That would be amazing I want a really big orc. Yeah Orcs grow forever as long as they keep fighting and winning they keep growing So maybe there's just a really big orc I'm just saying. I love it I hate like that a lot So so it doesn't have to be it doesn't have to be a big monster. They'd kill uh The hunt a knob and trap a grot, which is this is sort of the you can set like traps and ambush deep strike I it's sort of like a version of the hunter out of out of ogres Okay Uh Meyer brute traugoths as a unit So get rid of the guy on the back and just the the traugoths as a unit They have a unit of big trolls. I thought that was a very fun idea I'd be suddenly suddenly he moves six inches instead of five And you could as as he said here you could make him battle line with the actual boss on the traugoth, which would be great They're still on the shoulder. That's why he could move further. Yeah. Yeah, exactly Uh He had listed a gnash tooth chariot. I don't know that I agree with it chariots and the swamp make as much sense to me as wood elf chariots in the woods But okay, it needs it needs the fan on the back or it needs like alligators Yeah, there we go. That's their chariot Maybe it's like the boat From uh from night haunt, but yeah, just uh, just a fan on the back. I like it Some swamp monsters pulling it He has the gnash tooth hunk hunt pack, which is a little squig herd like unit with sort of a cruel boy whipping a bunch of smaller juvenile gnash tooth Fun idea Uh gnash tooth riders, which again you could actually size those guys in lots of different ways They could be everything from sort of two or three wounds cavalry like chaos knights up to Uh drakoth riders and I would believe it So quite a lot of versatility there. I think that's a great idea for unit I don't know about the mighty ard boys, but it certainly would fill a vital role His point here tom speaking to exactly what you were saying was having a heavy infantry Yeah, yes A true anvil infantry unit Uh A hobgrot chieftain, which is just a super cheap hero that can make hobgrot slid his battle line But he's a little little dweeb who brings his little dweeb friends with him Maybe buffs them in a cool way does something neat with their grenades That'd be gives them poison so they can do more to wins or Sure, but maybe that's the cruel boys thing. Maybe instead he just buffs them to make their grenades Uh Do more damage or gain some rend or hit on a better number or make more grenade attacks or I don't know something Right, just don't pick any of ten abilities, but he could give Plus one to bravery and as long as he made them battle line. I'm still buying him. He's he's he's a buy Yeah, plus ten at the model count Yeah And then finally the hobgrot wolf riders, which is actually my favorite idea from this whole thing Yeah Because then those would be super cheap chaff calvary that are not galatian veterans high mobility chaff Super high value in almost any meta And it'd be fun Crazy little hobgrots riding around on wolves or something throwing grenades at people. What a great unit Okay, yeah, you know credit to the guy that's you know on reddit that made this it's amazing I'll I'll my only thing is what the wolf riders. I don't know give me something crazy Give me ostriches. I don't know. Give me emus. Give me Sure A swamp creature or a bird creature of some weird choice. Yeah Something super weird. Yeah, I do like the emu option I would completely back riding emus if I didn't think that the next lumeneth release or the one after that was going to have emu riding cavalry in it So the lumeneth already have that market cornered there get off get away from the get away from those high elves emus They're gonna have wombat says just like squig type things and they're kicking around it's fine for llamas llamas Uh, I'm not gonna start sure But I agree steward chaff cavalry would help a lot for sort of screening objectives with the weaknesses of the army That's the hobgrot wolf riders were my favorite one because immediately I saw where those guys were going By the way, if they also had an ability to go battle line better Even better Right, but fast cheap mounted calf that doesn't have that doesn't go galatian veteran It just feels like such a great pick unit and it would cover so much from a foundational level from an execution level to how you play Mobility screening objective control board control like everything It would just do a lot So where where my where my hobgrot wolf riders at or or whatever You know Something riders It's it's fine put them on freaking uh Not a lot of things hop in a swamp, but uh, put them on anything I'm good with it I'm fine with it hippos cool great hippos can move pretty fast Well orks on hippos. I'm sold. Yeah, sure. It sounds like a winner to me Uh, re-rolling wins jack ten hobgrots riding a single anaconda Yes, uh You have my attention. Yes I mean anaconda like you have a snake like a swamp snake done like that Like that's a winner right there. Sure Uh So my point is We've got a bunch of weird. Oh frogs. Of course. Yes. Yeah, rivet riders. Of course. They're hopping things that live in a swamp Super easy. How did I not think of frogs good old frogs? Yes, there we go. That's the answer hobgrot frog riders Riding lord croak Just make it on him twice in one day. They're trying to conquer him. Is there are there? Oh, that's there That's their ultimate get him is a him is their personal mount. Yes All right gentlemen, uh I think that's that's cool boys I hope we gave them some ideas because I hope they're actually working on some future version of this right now I thought this was a good time to do this because hopefully somewhere Deep in the bowels of gw headquarters They're thinking about the next cruel boys book. Okay. Maybe it's 18 months out or something two years out whatever But hopefully that's starting to route around there. There's a whiteboard somewhere that says in in there that says Cruel boys ideas. Well, here you go folks Get these up on the whiteboard and until then maybe a battle scroll to fix some of the things we mentioned on the previous slide Yeah Cool. All right Bear james on a positive note. Yeah, good Beautiful models. Well done. Your artists are great. Love them. Make them playable. Love you Right. We all love these models. We just want to see him get used.  Okay But when you have beautiful models that aren't seeing the table, it's just It's just unfortunate. You feel the yeah You feel bad because you know, there are people who are collecting this solely based on the aesthetic because they're so beautiful And then playing games and thinking what am I doing wrong? I think there's two three or four of them sitting right here Yes, we we already bought too many dominion boxes. They're sitting in our paint lobby. Just waiting. Yeah I gave all of mine just gave them to a buddy who was like, oh, I'm so excited about the army. It's super cool I gave them all to him. You know how many of those I've seen painted Not many sitting there any no longer plays warhammer.  So he's he's okay. He's doing all right I gave some to james And when he picked them up, they already had green skin and nothing else because that's where my excitement stopped Yep, that tracks That tracks Well, this just rejuvenated my love for them. So I'm jumping on it right now There we go. That's what it'll do. Get in there Prove us all wrong Uh, james bear. Thank you so much. So glad to have you on the show Very excited about you guys joining the re-rolling ones crew Uh, re-rolling ones channel will be linked down below. They've been throwing up some really fantastic battle reports Uh, these two guys have are are the fresh blood Uh in the channel But of course the the the old the old re-rolling ones crew is still there We hope to see brent again in the future when he's in the chat now. Hey brent. I hope you're doing well Uh, but and we'll have shoe and jack on at some point in the future, but gentlemen Thank you so much.  Thank you so much. Don't forget to hit that like button I haven't said that at all during the show because I'm bad at this. 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