Konnichiwa. Good afternoon. Science is a human and conducted by people in many nations. This afternoon, we bring you a member of that community, Dr. Tetsuo Matsuzawa. Dr. Matsuzawa received his undergraduate degree and his PhD from Kyoto University and he has been a faculty member at the university for the past 20 years. He currently holds the position of full professor in the Department of Behavioral and Brain Sciences at the Primate Research Institute, where he continues a tradition of primatological research that dates back nearly 50 years. Dr. Matsuzawa's research interests include the mental and linguistic abilities of chimpanzees, tool use by wild chimpanzees, the development of behavior in primates, and cross species comparisons of cognitive behaviors that include humans. He has published numerous articles in a variety of scientific journals including the International Journal of Primatology, Primates, the Journal of Comparative Psychology, Behavioral and Brain Sciences, the Journal of Human Evolution, Nature, and a variety of others. He's also been a contributing author for several books including Understanding Chimpanzees, Chimpanzee Cultures, and Great Ape Societies, to name just a few. Some of Dr. Matsuzawa's studies on cognition have revealed that chimpanzees and humans categorize complex geometric figures and perceive colors in similar ways. That chimpanzees show a preferred word order when describing objects. And that chimpanzees can accurately identify the faces of fellow chimps and humans. But they recognize chimps faces faster than human faces. Perhaps to a chimp, we humans all look alike. Some of his studies on tool use have revealed that chimps can recognize the tool value of different objects, that they can learn complex tool-using behavior by watching other chimps, and that a tradition of tool use in one community can be transferred to a different community with the relocation of an individual. In a forward to a book titled Understanding Chimpanzees, chimp researcher Jane Goodall wrote that understanding the behavior and cognitive capabilities of chimpanzees would be, to a large extent, determined by the imagination and sensitivity of the people who are working with individual chimps. Dr. Matsuzawa's imaginative research exemplifies the search for knowledge and understanding through scientific inquiry. In today's lecture on chimpanzee intelligence in the laboratory and in the wild, he will integrate the findings of laboratory studies on the cognitive skills of captive chimpanzees with field observations made on chimpanzees in the wild to present a more unified view of chimpanzee intelligence. Dr. Matsuzawa. Thank you, David. It is my great pleasure to be here to talk about my studies on chimpanzee intelligence. I have been working with chimpanzees for 19 years. I wanted to make a bridge between the study of chimpanzees in the laboratory and the study in the wild. Japan is a special country in terms of the study of non-human primates. Why? Because there is an ingenious native species called Makaka Fusukata, you know, Japanese monkeys or snow monkeys in the country. And we have many primatologists. In east of fables, Grim's Fairy Tales or Mother Goosey's Naturally Rhymes, monkeys do not appear in those fairy tales simply because there is no monkeys and apes in Europe and in North America, even though there are many primatologists. Monkeys and apes, they live in Africa, Asia, and Central and South America. Let me tell you the simplified version of the hyalogeny of humans and monkeys. I think all of you agree that humans and monkeys at present, they are different to each other, but we share a common ancestor in the past. Well, the fossil record tells us that it should be about 30 million years ago, but forget about it. Here comes the chimpanzees. Now the story is somehow complicated. Many people still misunderstood the position of chimpanzee. The common ancestor descended to humans and monkeys, and the line of monkeys deviated to various kinds of species. Among them, the most intelligent species should be the chimpanzee. That is totally wrong, incorrect. The correct hyalogeny, correct branch is as follows. Chimpanzee, oh, let me tell you this way. The common ancestor descended to ape-like creatures called hominoid and monkeys. Then the hominoid divided into two, one is human, another is chimpanzee, about five to six million years ago. So this is a correct hyalogenetic relationship among humans, chimpanzees, and monkeys. Nakedness, it's not uniquely human. This is an infant chimpanzee a week just after the birth. Naked, the body weight is about less than two kilograms, and they are in the mother for about nine months in comparison to 10 months and three kilograms in the case of humans. If you have a chance to raise an infant chimpanzee in your house, I'll bet you you will be fascinated by the resemblance between the two species. One is my daughter, another is not mine. I got a job in 1976 in the Primary Research Institute of Kyoto University. In 1978, a long-term project about chimpanzee intelligence started in 1978. The main subject named I, spelled A-I, and pronounced I. I is the most popular name, the most popular girl name like Seara or Emi, I don't know, but anyway, so such a kind of name in Japanese, and means love.  I, with the other 10 chimpanzees, so I mean 11 chimpanzees in total, kept in a group, living an outdoor compound like this with stream, with trees, and when I do the experiment, each chimpanzee has its own name and they are invited to get into the experimental booth. And she is the first chimpanzee who learned to use Arabic numerals to label the number of objects and the number of dots. So let me show you what kind of skill she has. The first video, please. To counting dots, shown on the computer screen. Now at the age of 14, she is the first chimpanzee who can name the number from one through nine. Her accuracy is above 95%. Thank you. Using the same method, human subjects were tested. The response latencies were plotted against the number of dots. So if you compare the response latency, humans and chimpanzee, the latency is plotted against the number of dots. So the chimpanzee is much faster than the human subject. The chimpanzee can not only use Arabic numerals. Okay, stop, please. Not only the task like this, but also she learned a various kinds of task. She learned to discriminate 26 letters of the alphabet. And then the letter is used for naming individual humans and chimpanzees. Next. Well, the picture upside down is a bit difficult for us to recognize, but it's not the case of chimpanzees. They can easily detect who he is. She can label the color to a visual symbol. She can label the color to kanji characters which is used by Japanese people. Of course, the reverse, so she can decode the kanji character to the corresponding color. And she learned a lot of kanji characters like this. Each pattern has its own meaning. Putting things together, she can label, for example, when I presented five red toothbrushes, she can answer the number, the color, and the object name by using Arabic numerals and visual symbols. Not only combining the visual symbols, but also she can construct a visual symbol from the elements, from the scratch. Besides the learning task like this, I'm testing what I say, praying with a chimpanzee after the lesson. In this case, she's drawing one of the masterpiece and people think that chimpanzee cannot draw concrete image. Yeah, I think it's true, but I devised a test to show their ability. It's a simple test. Giving a child book to the chimpanzee rather than a white paper. What she did, no training, no previous experience, but what she did is she spontaneously checked all the people standing on the truck waiting for a train. So what it means, she really recognized what is drawn on the child book. The chimpanzees also pray with cray for 30 minutes without any kind of direct food reward or something like that. So they have intrinsic motivation to the arts like drawing or cray. They also help us to clean up their cages because of the shortage of human labors in Japan. It's a joke. So there is another story of chimpanzee intelligence as well as bonobo intelligence just described by Susabay Jirambu this morning. After 10 years, my study on chimpanzee intelligence in captivity, a question came out. I know they are very smart, very intelligent. So how their intelligence is utilized in their natural habitat? That was my simple question. So 10 years ago, 1986, since then every year I went to Africa to study the chimpanzee intelligence in the world. But I'm not the field worker like Richard Rangan, so it's very difficult to know their intelligence in the world. For example, can you see the chimpanzee in a tree? Left, top, tiny figure, can you see it? Yeah, it's very difficult to observe the chimpanzee. So I had no idea to test the chimpanzees in the wild. Then what I recognized, they are very intelligent very skillful in the tool use in the wild. In the case of Bosu, this is a research site of mine. The chimpanzee use a pearl of stone as a hammer and anvil to crack open oil nuts. But the oil nuts is very important plants for the villagers, planted close to the villages, so that when I try to see the details of the behavior, chimpanzees are very timid near the village, so just run away. Or under the palm trees, dense bushes, so you cannot see the details. So what I decided is to make outdoor laboratory to see the details of this unique tool use behavior. So in general, I recognize the similarity between the symbol use, which I have studied, and the tool use in the wild. Suppose that there is an actual apple. Apple can be labeled by a visual symbol. Apple beyond reach can be retrieved by a stick. So symbol use and tool use has a similar structure. So the outdoor laboratory was open on the top of the hill in which I brought stones and nuts and waited for the chimpanzees behind the screen from seven in the morning till six in the evening. So this is oil palm nuts and stones identified by me, prepared in the outdoor laboratory. So it's a kind of field experiment. Through the longitudinal study, I recognized the development of the tool use skill. The number of chimpanzees who succeeded to use a pair of stones as hammer and anbill, the number is, relative number is plotted against the age. So at the age of three and a half years old, they start to use the stone tool. Less than three and a half, they cannot use a pair of stone as a tool. This is a typical set of tool, anbill and the hammer. And I found very interesting examples four times. In this case, a set of three stones are used. The third stone beneath the anbill stone, the wedge, support the anbill stone, flat and stable. You can see the actual one in the center so that exactly the same method in the laboratory I brought back the three stones to the village to test human children. So it's a kind of three stone problems given to human children. Five years old girl, she tried to fix a nut on the anbill by pushing the hammer against it. But when she tried to hit, a nut is rolling down. So this is not the adequate way to solve this problem. Another boy, six years old, he tried to hold a nut by left hand. He must be careful. Then he reached the solution. Exactly the same to that done by chimpanzee. The third stone is used for the wedge. The wedge stone is not exactly a tool. It's a tool for supporting the other tool. So I named the third stone meta tool. Let's see the structure of the tool and the meta tool. Again, we can find the similarity between the symbol use and tool use. Let me see, near sight. Suppose that there are five pencils. As I have described, chimpanzee can coded five pencils to pencils and five. A set of visual symbols is used to represent the reference. In the same way, the target object, in this case nut, can be cracked open by a set of tools, hammer and anbill. Moreover, five red pencils can be coded by the three visual symbols, five red pencils. In the case of eyes naming, she spontaneously developed her own favorite word order, word order, like color, object, and then number, or object, color, and then number. Anyway, the number is located in the last position. In the case of tool use, nut can be cracked open by a set of three stones, ambileses supported by wedge. On it, there is a nut, is hit by a hammer. If you look at the developmental cause of the tool use or the acquisition process of the tool use, well, I think there are a lot of things to be told, but mother, they have very important law for the offspring to acquire that skills. So always the mother or the other members of the communities are nearby, served as the model. When I first saw the chimpanzees in the wild, what I was so impressive was the strong bond between mother and the offspring. And here I want to introduce you an episode which shows the strong bond between a mother and her daughter, two-and-a-half years old named Jokuro. Jokuro, two-and-a-half years old female, she has older sister named Jya, eight years old and the mother, Jire. So Jire, Jya, Jokuro, mother, older sister and the infant, always moving around together. It was 1992, January. The infant seemed to get, got the flu and weakened and died. And it was a dry season, so the dead body was mummified. Let me introduce you the video describing the episode. Could you turn, yes, sound up please. So look at the infant. The mother touched the forehead, just like checking the fever. One, two, three. Can you see it? So January 12th, mother and the infant came to the outdoor laboratory. This is the by-product of observing the two-use kill in the outdoor laboratory. Two-and-a-half, still suckling the nipple. The weaning is about two-and-a-half in the case of chimpanzee, much longer than modern humans. So at the weaning age, the infant should eat more, but she did not eat and just sit. Now the elder sister went to the infant to pray with, to cheer up, take the hand while waving the branch. And one day, it was also impressive for me, the infant approached the mother to groom. In many cases, mother groomed the infant. The reverse is rare, but the day the infant tried to continue to groom the mother. Look at the center. I happen to witness the infant fall down on the ground.  So all is filmed in the outdoor laboratory, where I'm waiting from the very early morning till the evening. So it's a kind of sampling of the dying process and after the death. In January 20th, nothing the infant did, just crouching, sitting. January 23rd, the rear, now the infant no more grasped the mother, so upside down, then the mother put the infant on the back and the infant can grasp. I tried, actually I tried to give nutritious food for the chimpanzees. Then January 20th, I recognized that she died. Now the mother pulled up the arm and with the neck and shoulder hold the arm, so the figure is just like the infant is alive and cringing on the back. So two days after the birth, after the death, so the body is rotten, smelled badly, and the infant, the way of carriage is somehow funny, so backside, so supine, and the next day, supine and upside down, so totally wrong way of carrying the infant. So I suppose that the mother gave up the infant, I thought so, but the fourth day after the death, the infant turned to be mummified, but now the way of carrying the baby is returned to more normal way. I mean the mother take the arm and put it between the neck and shoulder and carrying the infant. And the other members just accept the mother and the infant. Day by day, the infant was dried up but the attitude of the mother to the infant was not changed. Now it's February 1992. The rainy season is approaching. The safari ants came out. Now 15 days after the death, the dead infant no more suckled the nipple, so the hormonal change occurred and the menstrual cycle recovered. So in a sense, the mother is ready to have another baby, but she never gave up the dead infant and chasing the fries, just like me, and grooming the faces. It reminds me of just one year ago before, so when she was alive, the mother gloomed the infant. Now the estero cycle recovered and the bottom swearing, pink swearing, appears so that the males of the community try to coach ship, coach ship display, try to invite young males. And one day, I witnessed a very unusual scene. Alpha male using the dead body as a tool for the display. He is actually the biological father. After he used the dead body as a tool for charging display, while all members scattered, I took the picture of the mummified infant, except lower jaw, everything was intact. Then the mother came to pick it up on the back as usual. So 16 days before the death and 27 days after the death, I continuously observed the dying process and the deaths and the responses to the deaths of the chimpanzees. Jokuro, the infant, is named from this huge tree Triplociton, scientific name, and the local name is Jokuro. Thank you for the video. Let me add another interesting part of this episode. This is just coincidence. Logdall episode, as just Richard Wrangham described. So Logdall episode in this case is 80 years old female, the sister of the dead infant. Before the death, the mother carried the sick infant and moving in the tree followed by the sister. She stopped at a point and broke a branch to make a log. 10 cm in diameter and the length is about 50 cm. I think you can see the chimp holding the log by the hand and the leg. So it seems to me, now the sister is carrying the log like this or like that, or when she stops on the branch, balance the log and tap softly. It seems to me it's a pretense of taking care of the sick infant. The reason is this is the real Logdall played by the native Manongar. So they use log as a door. There is only one difference. On the top of the log, there are hairs. We know chimpanzee use tools, various kinds of tools. Jane Goodall found termite fishing in 1960, 36 years ago. And people know that chimpanzee do the termite fishing, but it's not true. Chimpanzees in Gombe use a trick to fish termites in the termite mound, but the chimpanzees in Bossu, my research site, they eat termite by catching termites by fingers, but they do not do the termite fishing. On the contrary, chimpanzee in Bossu use a pair of stones to crack open oil permanates. But the chimpanzees in Gombe, they eat oil permanates, out of soft red tissue, but not use a stone tool, because stones are available. So each community has a different type of tool and tool use. Last year, I, with my graduate students, found a new kind of tool. It's called algae scooping. Chimpanzee use a stick to get the algae on the pond. Let me show you the video. The second one, please. And in this case, I happen to take the film of the process of making the tool. Look at the four years of female get into the bush to get a pond, break it, and then cut into the length of 50 cm and strip the leaves. Now there are tiny hooks. So another chimpanzee in the pond, he use a bit longer, thick, straight, without hook, stick to get the algae. Thank you. What we found is the chimpanzee utilize two kind of sticks. One is thick and relatively long, right side, and another stick made of foam, flexible, short, thin with hook. It's good for getting the patchy algae. So the long one is mainly made of a kind of ginger and the flexible one with hook is made from foam. Now I recognize each community of chimpanzees has a different traditional way of using tools so that I decided to go to the azation community. In this case, from Bosu, 10 km away, there is a mountain named Nimba. Actually it is located in the neighboring country, Ivory Coast, not in Guinea. Nimba is the mountain covered by the primary forest and there is no base for the field study so I decided to sleep in the mountain. I spent two weeks to follow the wild chimpanzee, non-habituated chimpanzees in Nimba. Then I found very interesting different cultural tradition in Nimba community. Here is one example of making a nest on the ground. Above the altitude of 800 meters, they made one third of the nest on the ground. Chimps used to make the beds in the tree and they also cracked open cola nuts, cola eduaries, cola nuts, instead of oil palm nuts. So I decided to do another field experiment on social transmission of cultural behavior. What I did is bring back the cola nut to Bosu chimpanzees and give them the cola nuts.  They neglected, they neglected this unfamiliar round green nuts. Some of them tried to eat, mean sniff, bite, and just throw away. And since then, they just neglected, except one adult female named Yoh. She had no hesitation to crack open cola nuts. And the young members of the community carefully observed the behavior. So the plausible explanation is as follows. Yoh, in the case of chimpanzee society, we believe that chimpanzee females emigrate from their own community to the adjacent community, male remains. So the plausible explanation is Yoh was born in Nimba, and in Nimba community she learned to crack open the cola nuts to eat. And she emigrated, she transferred to the Bosu community after the puberty before getting the first child. And she found no cola nut there, but the experimenter provided the cola nuts so she was happy to crack open the cola nuts. So the culture, in a sense, can be transmitted by emigrant females between the communities. And the culture can be transmitted from one generation to the next, not by the adults, but by the young members of the community. That is the general idea of social transmission between the communities and a closed generation. So through the study of chimpanzees in the laboratory and in the wild, and I intended to cross the main research method like laboratory studies usually use experimental analysis and field studies based on behavioral observation, but what I did is experimental analysis in the field and why not behavioral observation in the laboratory. So the research target is to use leaves for drinking water in the wild. And what I did is to simulate this behavior to know the details of the social transmission among chimpanzees in captivity. I will show you the video of this experiment, but before that, I want to give concluding remarks about a series of experiments and the evolution of intelligence. The intelligence used to be divided into technological aspects like symbol use and tool use, pitted against social intelligence, like just described by Franz Dubal yesterday. We know chimpanzees in Gambit highly social. Bonobos in Wamba highly social. Not only chimpanzees and bonobos, Japanese monkeys, the other non-human primates, all is social animal. So humans, chimpanzees, monkeys, we share the social intelligence. It means the social intelligence, the characteristic, which was in the common ancestor of humans, chimpanzees, and monkeys. But the technological intelligence like symbol use or tool use cannot be found in monkeys. It can be found only in humans and chimpanzees or the great apes. So it means the technological intelligence originated from the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees. So what is uniquely human? My opinion is the self-embedding structure of cognitive capability. What it means? I'm communicating with you about the communication. My brain can think about the brain. We have the language, which describe about the language. We have the knowledge about the knowledge. Well, the chimpanzee, they can use a tool, meta tool, a tool for another tool. But humans can use a tool for another tool for the third tool, for the fourth tool. So the depth of self-embedding structure should be different between the two species. Well, in the last part of my presentation, I'd like to show you the video what's really going on in the laboratory. So this is Japan, Japanese castle. And this is the primary research institute of Kyoto University. It's not in Kyoto, 80 miles away from Kyoto. This is the main subject named Ai. She's now 19, 20 in October. So this is a kind of matching to sample task to select the identical picture. But the sample is upside down. And she's very good at to choose the correct one. She's on the way to memorize three digits number. And this is another chimpanzee named Han. The task is easy, match the color, but the reward is a coin, a dollar. And after she got four, five coins, she put it into the vending machine to get a piece of apple. It costs a dollar. Even in Japan, it's too expensive. In 1986, I went to Africa to know the intelligence how it is utilized in the wild. This is the outdoor laboratory for the field experiment of nut cracking behavior. There are a lot of new findings like hand preference. They have perfect hand preference. Left handers use left hand always for Hanla. This is outdoor compound with trees and a stream with gold fishes. And the chimpanzees do not damage the flowers. So we have already done the three-year project of planting trees in the compound, and we succeeded. They are allowed to eat. They actually eat some of the trees, but they do not eat like coniferous trees. In the single subject situation in the indoor experimental booth, everything is controlled by the computer. This is the matching to sample of color. So color is matched to orange goes to orange. Easy task. And she can code the color to visual symbol. The lexicrams we devised originally. So she says white. And each visual symbol corresponds to the color and also the Kanji character. We have Kanji character. So in recent years, we shifted to Kanji characters because it's much easier for Japanese to understand what's going on. So she can, in a sense, she is bilingual. So she can code the color to Kanji characters. And she can name the number of dots by Arabic numerals. Not only naming the number, but also she can choose the small number first to the large number. Four, five, six. After training the adjacent number, the skill transferred to non-adjacent number like two, four, five, one, six, nine. And I concentrated on the single subject situation. But in recent years, I'm doing face-to-face situation test. So this is the study about imitation. We know that it's very difficult for monkeys to imitate. And we know that chimpanzees can imitate. But the question is how they can imitate? What is difficult? What is easy for them? The subject is pen. Twelve years old. I can do test the subjects. Eight subjects are out of eleven chimpanzees in this situation. She got it. Social praise. Give a piece of apple. I didn't get any one dollar. Here comes the second chimpanzee. Very good. She came from Paris. So I'm using all the techniques like verbal instruction, pointing, molding and so on. And I want to know the answers to the question I raised. Here comes the third chimpanzee. It's eye. Good. She can't stop it. It's totally up to the chimpanzee. So she's free to do anything. And she started to pray with the water. And in Bosu Guinea, West Africa, I have been working with the wild chimpanzee to use. Here comes the chimpanzee eating the fruit. There are only about twenty chimpanzees in the community. They have to cross a road from one forest to the next. And this is the field experiment of nut cracking. I prepared the stones and the nuts. So the number of stones available is controlled by the experimenter. And this time I was lucky enough the chimpanzee already waited for me and they select a pair of stones. And I record who used which stone. In the case of young chimpanzees, she cannot decide which stone to be used. Let me tell you briefly about the development of the stone tool used. The first stage is getting the kernel, edible part of the nut from the mother. And then the infant started to manipulate the nut by him or herself. Or manipulate the stone and carefully watching. This case, not mother, but adult female. Carefully look at the skill. So then she pick up a nut, place on it and stamp. And then pick up the broken piece to eat. So she mimic whole image of the process. But no hammer stone. And at the age of three and a half years old, changing the hammer succeeded to crack open the nut to get the kernel. So now I'm ready to do the simulation experiment in the enriched compound in captivity. Here is the dome or outdoor booth. Through the underground tunnel, I can get into the inside of the booth. So the traditional idea is just inside of the booth, there is a tester and apparatus. And I pour the juice from the inside to the outside. And many materials are available, but the chimpanzee, one of the chimpanzee invented to use a kind of jennifer as a tool to get the juice from the artificial tree follow. So the captive chimpanzee just like as wild chimpanzee, they showed high selectivity of the material. So all the chimpanzee use jennifer, although there are many trees available. Besides the outdoor experiment, I keep going the experiment of single subject. This is tracing a step for writing. Two chimpanzees, I and Pendeza are serving as subjects. They have to trace exactly the white thin line. So at the end of a niche, I feel that chimpanzee intelligence is still underestimated. I think we should continue to make the efforts to understand the chimpanzee intelligence. Well, 36 years ago, Jane Goodall started the long-term study of wild chimpanzees. However, we know chimpanzee, they survived 40, 50 years. It means no one has ever seen the whole process of a chimpanzee from the birth till the death. No one has ever seen it. So, let us try to make the effort to understand the chimpanzees and the great apes and to protect their natural habitat in the coming century. Thank you. So, yeah, assemble 16. So we'll just go 15 minutes now. We'll be out at 5.15. Tell them that. I think so. We have time for some questions. We have about 15 minutes. Please submit your questions to our assistants and they'll bring them to the front. Before we begin the question and answer session, we'd like to bring to your attention a handicap card that was found in the parking lot. And if this belongs to you, you can claim it at the front table. Any reaction from our panelists to the previous presentation? Dr. Romba. Congratulations on your very elegant presentation. What I would like to ask is did you have any evidence of the mothers actively trying to teach the young to crack nuts? Well, in my case, I say no. And definitely no. I started a field experiment of nut cracking in 1987. Since then, each year, I spent a month or two months and cumulative record is 80 hours observation of nut cracking in the outdoor laboratory. And we have no instance of so-called active teaching. Like, here we are. We're molding the hand or given that. But there are a lot of evidence more interesting ones like an infant stole not the kernel but the nut to be cracked. Stole the nut and by himself tried to crack open. Or put a nut on the amber stone of the mother to see how it is cracked open. So the infant himself prays and not on the amber of the mother. And those behavior reminds me of sushi master in Japan. Japanese people like sushi. I hope you know what it means. Rice and raw fish. Sushi master make very beautiful sushi. And the students they are allowed to observe the behavior. For two years, for three years they are not allowed to even touch the rice or the fish. They wash dishes, wash towels and carefully observe the sushi master making sushi. Then two years, three years later one day sushi master says okay it's your turn you may use the utensils, rice, fish and the student can do it very beautifully. So traditional skills cannot be transmitted not always by active teaching or manual. It's not like McDonald's hamburger so sushi is something different, very skillful. For I believe active teaching is not the best way or not the most advanced way of teaching. I have a question about the age of development of the tool use. You were drawing a parallel between tool use and symbol use. And Sue I think and Dwayne said that the time of learning language and linguistic abilities is early before three and a half. And you don't have it until three and a half but you have weaning at two and a half. So maybe they already are interested in eating the nuts earlier. So why do you think it seems so late? Good question. I really appreciate Richard as I told in my presentation nut cracking is a tool use but a special kind of tool use in my opinion in terms of here logical level because the target object a nut is cracked open by a set of tool. Not a single tool. So the level is one step deeper. If you look at the other kinds of tool use in Bosu like they do ant dipping use a stick to catch an ant or use leave. It's not sponge but folded to get the water in the tree for all single object to the target and pestle pounding I do not give you the detail explanation and algae scooping newly found. Now we know the minimum age for these tools are two and a half. In the wild we observed two and a half years old already started to use in my nomination level one tool only one relationship between the target and the tool. So level one tool is start at the age of two and a half but in the case of nut cracking one step complicated. So that is my explanation why it starts at the age of three and a half. I was fascinated by the account of the death of the infant and I wondered if this long period of what we might call the mother's grieving for days is that a typical kind of event with every day or just does this just apply to infants or when older chimps die is there also a kind of long period like this? How representative is this? I think it's atypical. I mean I have never seen such a long episode of carrying the dead body. There is one in Mahare. Anyway, I don't say all the mothers behave like that. I think in this case there should be some factors like the infants died at the age of two and a half means the age of winning means relatively independent from the mother so the infant started away from the mother so the mother even after the death of the infant it's normal for the mother to away from the infant so actually after the death she sometimes spent sleeping with the males for a while then going back to the infant to take care of the dead infant so two and a half years old it might be one factor and of course in dry season the dead body was mummified if it was not mummified lose the arm, leg, skull still keeping I can't imagine such a thing so the whole image of the body was intact except lower jaws that might be an important factor and there should be the personality of the mother I don't know why in this particular female but anyway the complex factors like these produced an episode like this we have a question from the audience I would like to make a connection between Tetsuo's work that he has explained so nicely here and social behavior and I'm sure he's aware of the connection so it's not for his benefit but it's more for the audience's benefit all these issues of how deep a level of tool use is being used for example to use two tools to crack one nut or to use even three stones to wedge the anvil stone and so on all that sort of behavior can be parallel in social behavior as well in social situations you also see such things as mediation where one female brings two males together or where one male breaks up a fight between two females is also dealing with the situation of objects A and B outside of himself and making a sort of connection between the two and just to give one example where you can sort of see the connection where these higher levels come in you can have a situation where for example a male and a female are copulating and a lower ranking male comes in and that's his preferred female and he will go to the alpha male to get him to break up those two and so that's a very similar sort of situation where they make links between objects outside of themselves and connect them in some way and it's basically the same mental process I think that's going on that's also why I'm not completely sure that technical and social intelligence can as easily be distinguished as some people say because I think a lot of the connections that are being made are very similar sort of connections would you agree with that? I really appreciate Franz complimentary remarks that is my point in my conclusion what is uniquely human I told that self-embedding structure such a kind of intelligence on intelligence should not be domain specific it should be domain free so not only social intelligence but also technological intelligence what uniquely human is the self-embedding structure means if you talk about the social aspect I know that Richard know that Franz suspect that Sue frapped doing last night I don't know that is true or not but we can think about the other mind or even we can think about the other mind thinking about the mind of the third person thinking about the mind of the fourth person so this is exactly what I wanted to tell you so the self-embedding structure the nature should be domain free one question from the audience have the chimps ever been observed using the stones as weapons yes many times especially by males alpha male used to use slow the hammer when he during cracking nuts something fight happened he throw under throw the stone or young males they used to fight against about females in this case also well he usually bend the branches or throw the branches but they also throw the stone to the females and of course toward the human observer too does I have a concept of zero good question yes actually she knows the numeral zero she can discriminate zero from the other numerals and actually she is on the way to learn the number ten in this case ten is represented by one zero so she knows zero as a figure but I have never told the meaning of zero because it's a very interesting research theme so what I wanted to do is well it's always my way but I need very strong evidence I want to have very strong evidence that the chimpanzee can understand the concept of zero so what I have intended to do is after teaching ten, eleven, twelve she can put the two numerals together to represent a certain number and that particular numeral can be used in a different way to express the concept of zero so in the long term project yes I want to test the concept of zero but not yet on behalf of Gustavus Adolphus College and the organizing committee I'd like to thank our panelists for their participation in this Nobel conference and for presenting such a thought provoking series of lectures we wish you all you in the audience a safe journey home and hope that you'll come back to next year's Nobel conference on unveiling the solar system thank you all


So I just saw him is from a friend that Amazon is having some problems Some what they're having some problems apparently us central one is down That's not good When Amazon catches a cold the whole world it gets comes down with ammonia. Oh, yeah So I've put a link in the chat If folks could please go add themselves to the attendees list that would be great also feel free to edit the agenda We're just getting the agenda together. We typically start about five minutes after also Please be aware of the calls are recorded and posted to YouTube My Bluetooth device is having a little problem. So I'm gonna try a different one. I'll be back in a few moments Okay, and a new device. Can you hear me? Cool? Let's show we get started. Let's see is pulling the agenda up Is someone able to share the agenda as well while we're doing that We'll jump into the meeting. So welcome everyone to the next network service mesh meeting This is the last one before Kubecon so the Kubecon NSM meeting is canceled the one that is the one that was on Tuesday during the Dear over zoom we have Coming up the What so we we have So we have this particular meeting every every Tuesday at 8 a.m We have the CN the CNF telecom meeting Telecom user group meeting that we participate in which occurs On this screen's bouncing around Okay, that should be better Okay, which occurs every first Monday at 8 a.m. Pacific time and every third Monday at 4 a.m. Pacific time We have as well So we have NSM come NSM come coming up every or this this Monday, so I believe the session starts at 9 a.m. Yeah, I believe it runs 9 a.m. To 4 30 I think that there will be Typically, you know, you know, there's some sort of breakfasty thing that happens before the actual actual commencement So show up early munch on donuts and coffee and you know visit with folks Yeah, so did definitely make sure to Yeah, feel free to feel free to pop in earlier on is as I described we have we also we also have a Session on Thursday at 2 25 p.m. They usually shuffle the rooms around so we don't We don't we don't put the room on here until after they've properly announced it Yeah, that said please do the way they decide whether to shift the rooms around is based on how many people have indicated in sked That they're going to attend so if you intend to attend, please indicate that that will help us get a larger room That seems to have worked very well in North America We we got bumped into really large rooms and then in Europe We wound up with a crowd of people in the hallway who couldn't get it at all because there wasn't sufficient space so Yeah, we do tend to fill up the room. So Definitely definitely help us by adding yourself to the schedule So if you go to the cute pod website to the schedule section, there's a place where you can log in Another place you can do it is on their scheduler app which is ran by sked sehpd and You can sign up for an account and Follow follow which sessions you're going to you enjoy the most and please add an SNL to it Especially if you intend to to come see us we We also have coming up Dev conf With two talks that have been submitted the status on those is currently pending that one is in January 24th to 26th in Brno We I'm a bit surprised they haven't announced that that yet considering how close it is We have FOSDM 20 20 coming up with in Brussels The call for proposals ends in the first of December there is an SDN room which Which they reached out to ask for for talks We have to con on native calm Europe And just a reminder December 4th is when the call for a proposal closes when the CFP closes So Please make sure you know even if it's not an NSM talk getting Getting people in the community to to show to show up and give talks is still is still useful So December and December 4th is the last day and it is on a Wednesday Notifications will be in January and a schedule will be announced late January. We have Oh, and this has been renamed to oh any yes So let's we get to see how people will pronounce where pronounce that will be on S or ones or or Oness or whatever so else, but that will be in Los Angeles the Event URL is to be determined and Same with the CFP So a couple announcements I know we've announced this before but NSM calm is sold out. There is a waitlist available And again this meeting is canceled on Tuesday, November 19th This is Lucina on the call. Hi there. Yes Well, you have the floor. Thank you Great, so let's see 10 more Twitter followers Followed nine more accounts tweeted retweeted 22 things including the network service mesh con waiting list The Cisco keynote will feature network service mesh Five cool things you can do with network service mesh the Open networking summit Europe highlights reel included a little an interview with Frederick. So congrats on that and A reminder of today's to working group meetings and then scheduled posts for each one of the network service mesh con sessions So those have all gone out plan for this week Play one one or two more promotions of network service on the session at cube con Plan to attend network service mesh con on Monday and We've reached 300 stars for github so I can post about that as well So when available, I can share the contributors podcast The next release announcement or any news about the next release as you'd like and If there are any recaps on open source summit Europe excellent yeah, thanks for Thanks for mentioning about the highlight reel and Also for for the for the keynote. So I believe that keynote is gonna be done by by VJP andy Is that is that right Ed? Oh And the same con or at there is a keynote being done Assistive keynote yes by being done by VJP and a at cube con proper Yeah, and I believe that he's going to talk about in the same one that based upon the synopsis so I have not looked at the synopsis, but believe it. I honestly don't know what I'm allowed to say or not say at this point apologies Fair enough So so we will make that assumption or at least I will make that assumption Based on the synopsis cool, we have and with that We have no listed a no listed agenda that was added in so What do we want to talk about? We I know if we I know we Nikolai has been cutting some branches Nikolai. Are you on right now? Yes? Well, I mean the Manism the main netflix always mesh as a repo branch was good by Actually, but Yeah, I learned that okay, so we have the branch we Ed has experimented a little bit with Having a proper helm charts which seem to Work from what I can tell I know if there's going to be a separate announcement about that it but yeah, just wanted to mention this and I Have cut the examples branch Which is going to yeah follow the 0.2 release. This is the first branch for for examples so I hope that it will go good in a nice direction and I did not with this release as we said last time this is going to help Probably everyone on the first Project that wanted to use this was a CNF testbed. We're actually we'll probably just be able to download the Job charts and then just use the Images that that will be compounded against the proper Release from the examples So this is mostly the universal CNF image that is used You know So really quickly I've also started doing a bunch of cleanup of the docks that I'm hoping to get pushed shortly The state of our docks is kind of all over the place And we've been having a bunch of people from the community who have been basically pushing little updates here and there as they find issues which is really awesome, but The whole reason I pushed out the new helm repos is Because I was trying to write that documentation and we wanted something where people could try it without actually checking out our repo GitHub repo and that seemed the obvious way to go about it So that's a thing and then The other thing I wanted to suggest is I think we really before we push the release out We should probably switch from our default behavior being vagrant to our default behavior being kind Kind is enormously simpler and we've had a bunch of people who tried to go wander into vagrant and Gotten stuck in various ways because there are more pitfalls available And but I wanted to see what people thought about switching to kind just the defaults instead of vagrant for our providers But this from our experience, so I have been using kind for a long time and Kind is the default method to test the NSM with within the NSM within the examples Repo just being stable for a while We have a release. I think it's a 0.5 0.5 1 or something The release is there Yeah, so effectively if we point them to release version Maybe I know one should be should be better so that struck me is probably being a A better choice because I've just run into people who've had all kinds of complications on the vagrant front I mean just starting with all the many vagrant providers and vagrant is a kick-ass tool of what you need is a VM But if what you need is a Kubernetes cluster kind has just been kinder Let's see the point. That's that's kind of true I've kind of lost control of this But And actually actually I've experienced while using both vagrant and kind So one question is that while using kind kind is definitely much easier for To for deploying and try to do but one thing is that whenever I try to want to debug something because actually notice actually is Sealed in a docker and actually every time I need to do some inner operations I need to do I need to go into the docker in a container and do execute but sometimes I there might be a problem with the command the lack of commands and the lack of tools so that We're talking about the vagrant will tell you actually is virtual machine then Definitely vagrant is out way the way more like say our way in the advantages compared with kind so I think this like a trade-off so kind is much easier to deploy and vagrant has more power for Debugged I completely agree with you if you've got something you need to debug down to the node level You definitely want to fall back to something like vagrant And then I'm absolutely not suggesting we do away with the vagrant support or the vagrant documentation I'm just you know basically trying to point what my suggestion is though that the Sort of out of the box thing that we point people to be kind and then we can sort of list the other options So like and the stuff I've been putting together You know literally we've got an embarrassment of guides for getting this stuff together and literally it's like step one You need a kubernetes cluster here are your options you know We recommend you start with kind and the options that literally are because we've got documentation for kind vagrant GKE aka AWS packet, you know, we've got a crazy amount of documentation for how to get a kubernetes cluster going that you can run this on Sure, I complete I completely understand those people who who got stuck while using Vagrant because it can be a handy ask I saw especially for kind of users like me to work behind a proxy if things get much even even even worse Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, proxies are miserable Yep No, I totally get it. But no, that's a very good point Now we probably actually do want to take a bit of a note in the documentation as we're sort of listing that amount of Making recommendations that if you need to debug node level things vagrant is probably a good place to go Yeah, perhaps perhaps what we could do is Build up our documentation around that like a developer's frequently asked questions where how do I have trouble with what with my notes? How do I how do I debug that and then we can describe the describe a path Just to just to get people into that for for common things That sounds great So I think we still want to try and get the v.2 out this week Um But you folks will be patient for another day or so on things like doc updates. I think we'll get a much better result Does that sound okay to you Nikolai? Oh? Okay Yep, yep, I I count on you Nikolai to be the realistic one of the room Because clearly that is not me That's not true. Okay, okay, um Um, cool So are we done talking about the release stuff? Do other folks have things that like to bring up about the release? Where do we put the name because it gives such a nice name and never mention it. Oh That is a good idea. Good question. I don't know that may take a little bit of thought I Mean what one thing we can do with the new home repos is the way the current home repo is set up is Actually, I need to fix this in the notes because otherwise people will get the the older version The way the helm repo is being set up. Um, we essentially wind up with a um A per We wind up with a per branch or label Helm repo and if you go to the root one, then we have a redirect for all that will redirect you to the latest release And so right now The latest release is v zero dot one dot zero Which is old so old But we could also put redirects that would redirect from like borealis To the v zero dot two. That's a totally doable thing Okay, right in that way Yep, good. So a couple things we should probably look at is is there a helm repository that we can Submit a helm chart too so that people could just do like Helm install some some global repository name Uh, I do not I do not know the answer to this, but if there is a repo we should consider Uh upstream There is actually one we should submit upstream. I agree We should absolutely submit upstream and um So did we manage to lose by the way somewhere along the line? There was an item from the misery guys on the agenda that we may have lost somewhere I think Hey, thanks a lot. I'm sorry. So I actually created, uh, you know an entry Of a new agenda section, uh, you know based on a snapshot I created last week But you guys kind of started like you know a new section And I tried to put it at the end and I'm sorry like and I turned out to be the question answer section I'm I'm really sorry No, no This is this is all fine. It gets a little confusing when we have two meetings in the same day Um, yeah, and I I all I want to do is make sure that we didn't have it dropped silently off the agenda I think we got a couple more items that that have crept in um But yeah, I I I did want to make sure that we um I did want to make sure that we we we didn't lose you guys Awesome. Thank you. Cool. Uh When we're whenever you want me to jump in like let me know I'll jump in with whatever I have I actually wanted to show a functional demo, but unfortunately the demo is broken But I can at least like you know tell you like you know what we are up to and you know We would definitely you know want feedback from you guys because You know, I mean partly like I'm I'm still like learning nsm So you know, I'm not I'm not too sure like you know what I'm going to talk about is it's going to be That's Fantastic and do reach out if you need help debugging what may be broken with your demo as well after the meeting Awesome. Yeah, actually I have already reached out to the nsm dev channel and I think Alexander is already like, you know Probably looking at my logs And thanks a lot for looking at that Alexander if you're on the call Excellent do you You want to go sooner than later? That way you can you just you won't feel pressure for time and you may also have influence on what we want to add to the releases as well Absolutely, absolutely. I mean like you guys want me to do it right now like I can just take them on I want to find with that. Are you comfortable with that run of slob? I know you've got a agenda item before as well I was trying to find my own mute button. Yeah, uh, no, it's fine. No problem. Perfect Fantastic. Well, uh, what was your what was your name again? Uh, my name is girish Here you can find it under the measuring section there. Yes So the first one is my name there girish And we have you on the call as well Yeah, we've met uh, we've met li uh before and uh, good to meet you and so yeah, you have uh, you have the four Uh, stop sharing so that uh, either giri or leak and share Awesome. I'm gonna grab the ball for like a very quick second Shouldn't take me too much time. Um, I hope you guys can see my screen So here's my Kubernetes environment And you can see I mean, so I'm I'm just going to touch on the problem first. So the problem is that I try to deploy the nsm, uh, you know with uh with the master changes you guys have and you know, I think I just noticed it yesterday probably so but But you can see the admission webhook is is the one like you know, which isn't the scratch loop But but that's not the demo though. I mean like not the demo is that like you know So so we have this, um, uh, we have created an adapter for uh nsm So so this is how measuring is right now um, I'm already connected to a coronetis cluster from measuring um, and uh We have this way where we can actually connect to some adapters So and I have the nsm adapter that you know, we put together with harsheny Um here running on port 1004 We tried to make it nicer like you know with your logos here and there And then once you add an adapter like you know, there is a section which pops up in the navigation menu Like you know, which actually provides a place where you know, um, you can play with some stuff Or work with nsm from within measuring. So so the first thing is, um, you know, so I'm already connected to coronetis cluster, which I already spoke about I'm first going to try to remove the nsm. So you know, so We try to like, you know, uh help provision nsm and some sample applications very quickly So you can see, uh, I'm actually doing a watch Just to let you guys know So you can see there is nothing in my namespace now So I'm going to go back and then I'm going to install So what this does is it actually essentially I mean at the moment You know, you pretty much were touching on some of the points like you know, which you know We wanted to bring up which is uh Helm repo because what we're doing right now is we're actually doing a git clone and then trying to you know I use the uh helm content there to Generate the ammo and then deploy it on the cluster. So you can see I just click appreciate your persistence But that sounds painful Yeah, but but that's okay.  We have set But yeah, so this is the problem now. Unfortunately. I actually also wanted to show a demo application Which we called Hello nsm app Of course, like you know, we are trying to bring in all your other sample applications, which you know We could find in your repo the icmp vpn vpn icmp, etc But of course, like and since that nsm is not working and I'm not able to show any of those And then we created this what's called the hello nsm application I'll tell you the reason why we created that is that like, you know, mesh We also has this section where we can actually do No kind of a load test, but unfortunately today, like, you know, we can only do a, you know, a http load test We recently integrated with wrk2. So it gives you the option of like a ford.io or wrk2 for load generation Um And and of course, you know, so we have some nicer integration with prometheus and grafana So so this this was actually the reason why we we thought it'll be nicer to create a sample application Which would talk http Uh, and then now unfortunately since that I cannot show the application I I try to put put a diagram together in the last five minutes Which you know, essentially tries to show it I I you know, I try to learn some stuff from pream like, you know, who has been very helpful You know, I'm patient with you know educating me with nsm So so the first thing we did was, you know, a very simple microservice Uh deployment, which is you know, I'm just calling it app a and b, you know, so Essentially incorporated terminology a deployment and a service definition for each of them Um, and then now, uh, one thing which pream told is that like, you know, when I mean appropriately like We create the annotations in place so that, you know, when they are deployed like, you know, they are getting deployed on the networks of the mesh Essentially they have an extra, you know, like a network interface like, you know, we just connected to the nsm network, you know Which is established by or created by nsm So earlier I was just using the kubernetes service to talk to app b from a Then I later learned that I mean, that's probably not right. So so what I'm doing right now is my app a when it brings up Uh, it tries to actually talk to kubernetes apis and figure out the, um, you know, uh, the, uh Uh, sorry, it tries to exact into the app b pod and then it tries to find the ip address Of the, you know, uh, ip address of the port, um, which is on the nsm network And then now app a uses that ip address to talk to app b So now when a history p request comes to app a, uh, what app a tries is it tries to use the not not the Kubernetes service name, but rather the nsm ip address of app b and tries to talk to it So this way we can actually do a load test. This is kind of like, you know, what what I have now So this is what we call the hello nsm app And and we have it functional, but unfortunately i'm not able to show it today. Uh, you know We'll get you fixed up right after the call Awesome awesome. Yeah, and and and you know what? I mean, I was very excited to actually hear you guys talk about You know the helm releases and you know getting with uh, you know the 0.2 release We're just fantastic because like, you know, I mean a better strategy for us would be to actually rely on your releases Rather than your daily bull because I mean, I know, I mean we have an open source project and we see It has issues once in a while like on the master branch.  So we will we will totally get you started. Um, like I said, the release should be coming out this week So you can finalize to pointing at the actual release Fantastic for your stuff and and that you know that that'll be great Yeah, and nsm epitomizes edge networking in more ways than one Why at the end sometimes But that but thank you very much for we're going through like this this trouble and for and for persisting So we're well by the way, one of the things that sort of came as a comment is You might have stale docker images. Um, it's someone is saying that that are causing your problem. Denise is actively piping up on the chat on the meeting. I'll add into the thread you got Gotcha. I mean, you know what, you know, that's a fantastic suggestion I I'll I'll try to clear the images and then I'll try to give it a try or maybe just change the policy You know the image pool policy to you know, all the way it's full So that way, like, you know, it'll be always consistent. That's a great suggestion. I'll give it a trial again right after the school Yeah, so Denise put a couple commands. So make sure you copy those before Before the writing ends, I've also attached Denise the slack thread so that we can get that capture there as well So should be all right awesome awesome Because the the issue that you're seeing there with the webhook that I think the last time we saw that it was someone had stale Docker containers in their In their their Your Kubernetes cluster local repo for some reason doesn't mean that's the situation here But we've seen that error before and that that was the situation that Gotcha. Actually, I mean like now that's very possible again because I I did not clear the image and yes It just occurs to me now that I didn't do it Uh, awesome. Like I mean, uh, that would be great. I'll give it a try like you know, maybe it'll just start to work Uh You guys don't have to wait for me.  That's fantastic. Thanks a lot of this Sure, pleasure. So, uh, Radislav you have the floor awesome. Yeah, so, um Ed was in the loop actually he he put me there as well I was not aware of the of this discussion, but so what I want to bring up is um the topic of monitoring and perhaps if Ed wants to share more details about that because, uh Yeah, I So far, I don't have uh, for example in the kernel forwarder in the kernel forwarder We don't have uh monitoring In the in the sense of Monitoring the if the interface is available or not. So I was kind of expecting that to be handled by the manager Uh, May I get I can explain to you why it's not currently handled by the manager Please note. This doesn't make it a good reason or a bad reason It just makes it the reason the choice was made at the time, right? Yeah, and the reason is because So if a if a pod simply goes away Right, you need some way of detecting that the pod has gone away um If the pod And the the only good way that we have to absolutely in all circumstances know that the pod has gone away Is to know that its network namespace is no longer associated with any process on the system Um In order to determine this you need to be running in the host pid space Now the forwarders are already running the host pid space so they can they can actually find the correct uh network namespace to begin with um, so rather than Having a second component that was running in the pod network namespace From sort of a principles of least privilege We wanted the smallest shell of thing to be running with any kind of privilege as possible right now The network service manager has no privilege of any kind The forwarding plane has to have some kind of privilege because it has to be able to insert kernel interfaces into pods And so that seemed like a logical place to put that Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah And so That's why it's there now doesn't make it the right place to put it that just sort of explains to you the thought process okay, so Just to be clear so so far the The monitoring of of the end points life or the service life Should be handled by the forwarding plane right? So the case where or no So a a very polite end point would tell you that it has closed Right, but we know that we can't do that right so in the event that the we are not told by The client politely that it is closing We need some way to clean things up Does that make sense? Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'm just figuring out Who is responsible for that? I mean Should it be the the forwarding plane or should it be the manger? Yeah, because I would yeah, I mean, yeah, totally. I mean as I said If we were to transition that responsibility from the forwarding plane to the manager The manager would have to acquire privilege in order to carry out that duty And so this means that this whole Healing process out of healing process is handled by the forwarding plane and from the from the from the manger No, there's lots of things There are lots of things that can kick off healing lots of things, right? So There are sort of two things the thing that you hit this morning out of the bat was How do I detect that a client or an endpoint has disappeared without bothering to tell anyone that it's gone? Right, um, which is one of the things that can go wrong You can also get situations where the forwarder itself Has gone down and restarted in which case the manager needs to discover that it doesn't have the cross connects that it should have You can also have the case that the network service manager has gone away In which case the network service manager when it comes up can discover via monitor cross connect That there's lots of things it doesn't know about the world that it should know Um, you can have cases where end points go away in which case You know, basically that has to be discovered and propagated to whoever the peers were um, you know, effectively the the the mechanisms behind healing are Someone detects that something you know, either someone has restarted or Someone detects that something is wrong and because state information is shared between The network service manager and its forwarding planes and between the network service manager and its associated network service end points You can always go through and restore the state if one particular element goes away Um, or if you for example lose a network service endpoint So the the the two things that are necessary for that to happen correctly are The forwarding plane has to implement the monitor cross connect api um Is the first one and then the second one is that someone has to detect The unusual case where a client or endpoint simply goes away and doesn't bother telling anyone that it went away Um, and we're currently doing that by having the forwarding plane because it has sufficient privilege already Detect the namespaces going missing Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah um, and in that context, do you think it makes sense that Because I think this feature will be extremely common between all forwarding planes Yep, right So the thing that it makes sense for this one to be, uh, I don't know extracted from the From the current forwarding plane for example vp and just put it in the common place I would I would expect yeah, I mean there's some common things That I would expect every forwarder to do independent of what it's doing And there's no point in having people have to rewrite the damn functionality every time Right, and one of the one of them definitely is detect that namespaces have gone away and take the appropriate action um, and the other one is It's probably the case already That you could that I think all the monitoring code is reusable So effectively all you would have to do is instantiate a monitor a monitor cross connect monitor server And just make sure to tell it when you create cross connects or delete cross connects or update cross connects So, you know, effectively, I know you commented the kernel forwarder with stateless And you know, there's a lot But um, but effectively The code that you're writing about the kernel forwarder that's different could probably remain stateless it would just go poke its data into the Cross connect monitor server and the cross connect monitor server is probably already fairly independent code Because I think it's just starting up a monitor service in general Um, but I'd have to go look at the code to be sure Because we we've already pulled monitor stuff a lot of the monitoring pieces have been pulled out into stk already So if I get this straight basically the the events that are sent to the cross connect monitor That's the forwarding plane sense Should be the result of of a thing that the forwarding plane has done, right? So for example, if the forwarding plane created some interface or something else it should sense that update event, right? Yeah, exactly exactly and In case that the forwarding plane the text that the the namespace is missing or the interface for that namespace is actually gone Uh, or it is down then Let's say the the event that happens after that is uh, it's a deletion. So then I will Basically the forwarding plane will delete that interface or something like that And then it will say I believe it currently marks it is down Which means the network service manager finds that it's down and can then take appropriate action Which is usually going to be updating the cross connected some way I'm trying to figure out I'm trying to figure out the the update event that That should be sent after this self-monitoring thing that will happen in the forwarding plane. So it should be a delete, right? Yeah, I think it's actually marking this down because you you want Manager is the network service manager when a particular link goes down so say it was a link to a network service endpoint Um, you probably don't want to just delete the entire cross connect You probably want the network service manager to negotiate a connection to a new network service endpoint And then update the cross connect so that it sends you the new network service endpoint That way the client is undisturbed That makes sense Yeah, yeah, yeah Okay, I will I will continue to look at the code and see how Feel free to feel free to reach out because I think we should be able to help you along And I think most of the code is either fairly trivially relocatable to to common Or could with a very small amount of work we were locating to common. So I think it's Uh, it should be quite doable Yeah, yeah, I agree. Okay. Thanks. Appreciate you bringing it up though. Yeah Um, so just yeah, so just as a follow-up, uh, any Any thoughts on the second? part of rudder's left Questions about the granularity level any ideas about this Uh, could you could you say a little bit more about the granularity level part of the question? I Apparently missed that going. Yeah Yeah, I think the question is basically, uh Just just as the self stated as uh, so I know it is Uh, so basically we have like a monitoring the name spaces of a pod So is it necessary or is there a use case? Uh to go further down to monitor, uh, the interfaces Yeah Okay, so that that that's an interesting question because essentially what you're saying is right now The forwarder is keeping track of the pod's namespace And if the pod's namespace goes away Then it figures the pod is gone and it should you know mark things as down so the appropriate, you know Action can cascade through the system So that that's the way it's currently working. Are you asking should it instead be monitoring the interfaces? Yeah, yeah, what I'm thinking is about so, uh, I don't know whether in the future is likely for a single Endpoints, I'm probably going to receive a multiple multiple requests or that means multiple connections It belongs to different, uh network service. So basically, uh, it is likely that only one of this or some of those connections are down or broken Well, the entire pod is still running So the entire pod is still running. We'll try and connect them to someone else who can give them what they asked for Without disturbing it already today. Oh, okay. Yeah, so if I've got a client Let's say I've got a client and the client you had basically So take the case where I've got an endpoint as you said that has multiple connections coming into it for multiple different network services Which is a totally valid use case. There's a lot of handy reasons to do it sometimes And say one of the clients somewhere else disappears the forwarder detects it It'll mark the client is down in in the monitor, uh event to update the network service manager The network service manager because it knows that the client is the original source of this Realizes that it now has to send a close message Towards the network service Okay, so service endpoints point of view all it is going to see is an orderly close for that particular connection And as soon as it has, you know, received that close Um, we're gonna go ahead and in the normal way as if the clothes that come from the client will tear down the interface Okay, cool. That makes sense Yeah, yeah, but it's a it's a super good question now that we dug into it cool cool so, um Back to uh girish. Did you uh, did you manage to get the um The demo up and working Yeah, it worked. Yeah, it was just a mergle Fantastic. Well, let's uh, let's go and jump back to that and uh, and see what you have. We still have time, right?  I'm sorry. Is that question to me or yeah? Yeah, the question's to you based on time We're on 12 minutes. I'm absolutely here. Yep. Okay, so that fixed the issue in garage Absolutely. Yes, it did Yeah I think the trick would have been like, you know to change my policy like, you know the image full policy Which I I actually just updated anyway, so I hope like and I'll not see this issue anymore Plus once you guys have the releases in place like and I'll probably switch to it like and then we'll probably not see this issue ever Yep All right. So so I'm back in the uh, measure ui So I'm just going to reload the page, you know, just for sanity and and here we are Um, so sure I'm just going to choose the nsm namespace and and if you guys can see my uh, Show here. I'm again watching the nsm pod namespace. So um with with some predefined defaults The operation is like, you know An installation is actually requested and you can see the pods, you know come up like, you know as we speak Um, it takes like a few seconds, but then like, you know in in about like a minute like, you know, it's it's all up and running Once this is all up and running I can actually show the demo application. Hopefully like, you know working Then go so now you can see like all the nsm pods are up and running. Thanks to you guys like, you know, that was actually a great help We're like, you know, right on time so So now, uh, I'm going to show you the the hello nsm application, which I you know, tried to showcase in a diagrammatic way a few minutes back so, um Once I click on that, um, you can see the uh, two pods come up like and and you can see I've annotated them the right way Hopefully, uh, I kind of like, you know leveraged the examples that you already had in place so you can see the app a Um is the client and ab b is the end point The nsc and nse if I can probably say them the right way So so you can see Okay, awesome. So two pods came up And uh, one other thing is that like, you know in the ui one one thing like, you know You can see here that like it shows you some markers I'll also add the easier way to actually work with this like, you know What what I've done is that if you click on the second one here, you'll also say that hey, the service is available And it's also like, you know, so it's available on a particular port So now, you know, this is the ip address of my note and if I go to that port like, you know, you can see now Uh, the you know the services up and running and and this one is actually that so the client Which is a browser actually spoke to the service a and and and this the app a is actually talking to ab b over The nsm network and in order to prove that it is like I'm just printing the ip address as well Like, you know, just for sanity So you can see like, you know, the whole thing actually just work like and this is We like things that just work just working Absolutely, yeah Awesome, yeah, that's that's that's pretty much of a demo Like I mean we can make it much more colorful But you know, I just wanted to you know ensure that hey, you know what like I'm trying to use a demo Which in fact is a legit legitimate like you know nsm demo But not something which is you know, kind of not using the nsm capabilities So, you know, which is actually the reason why I wanted to run it for you guys today So this is this is definitely good simple demos are a lovely place to start Um, and you guys have done a great job on this and I'm quite impressed with the integration New York you've done with the user interface as well. Um, that's actually very exciting awesome, awesome Yeah, this if you um if you have any anything written up on this We we can ask Lucina if she can post it posted on twitter And simultaneously I I personally think it would be great to get Uh to get a little bit of instructions on this or at least point to your instructions on uh on meshry If you have any documentation Uh written up and we can we can we can point from from our website and repo has an as That would be the other one that was mentioned. Um The other one that that nicole mentioned is we have a bunch of other examples That we could add here as well um, and We probably want to chat with you a bit a little bit on slack about getting you guys on the Helm repos because that will probably make your life much easier awesome That'll be wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's No, you should not be having to check out the repo to make all of this go Yeah, I know I mean feel feel free to check out our repo whenever you want, but yeah, it's not necessary No, it's a nice repo. I recommend it Awesome guys, thanks a lot like that was very helpful. Yes, I will actually like I mean I'll ensure that like, you know, we put something together like and I'll share it with you guys and also I like I'll send you guys the links to the meshry repo So you can actually I mean you can point to it and and also specifically the ns I'm an app repo like, you know, where most of the action I just showed is is happening. So that'll be that'll be wonderful Thanks a lot guys. This has been a great That's actually that's a great suggestion. I guess I hadn't considered that nickel eyes a suggestion about the example apps was Was yeah was in part potentially to include all of those in meshry such that Such that the provisioning of each of those is Is facilitated actually now that I think of it nsm is Well, what we interface with More service measures than you see in UI Some of them most of them come with their own sample app Some of them don't But nsm takes the cake in terms of coming with As many as you guys do There's a lot of interesting and creative things to be done So So remind me what is what is your goal at the at the end of the day? Is this so for people to try try things out? Or is your plan to get these things so people can deploy them in production and have them Configured and managed by our system. Yeah The end of it is the ladder is production grade You know comfortable and confident Safe and there's a lot that's missing by the time that we would get there People would try initially we're trying to answer a couple of questions that people had asked us very frequently, which is You know in acknowledgement that there's a lot of service meshes and they say well, which one should I get started with? and the second thing they say is Hey, wait a second There's a lot of value coming out of the mess, but there's some overhead here as well now That my packets are being stopped and inspected more than they were before. So what's the overhead? We created mesh we'd answer those two questions most prominently so to provide to your point fedrick like a In a playground is the kind of the term that we'd used initially and over time We'll let that playground term fade and use more serious sounding words about Yeah, you know sort of day two operations and beyond that There's a bit of an aspiration around some things for developers some things that maybe people haven't seen out of a service mesh just yet Actually, I realized now when I ring this up In conversation with Ed. He I think he takes five steps further than than I have already So so yeah, the short answer is Yeah, we're hoping to acknowledge that there are many many people Better yet to come to service meshes that it's going to take a number of years And so trying to help educate them and walk them through and understand the differences between service meshes Allowing them to contrast them I'd be familiar but but in the end like the So there's a whole suite of people who feel much more comfortable when there's a user interface in front of them There's a whole suite of other folks who feel entirely uncomfortable if changes are being made through a user interface and not being synchronized with You know The code repository and so at some point we'll be facilitating for that as well cool, so my my recommendation on this as well then is going to be nsm like you yes, you're going to play nsm. You could display liquidy stio, etc um What what my recommendation would be is to think about the interface where Suppose that you wanted to have like a multi-compute cluster of istio and What would it look like for nsm to establish the low-level connectivity and then you install istio components related to networking on top of that so especially especially around envoy and so Definitely think about because right now it's a it's a flat hierarchy, which is the right thing to do at this at this point but You know definitely definitely keep that in mind because This could be something where people right now trying to do multi Trying to do like multi cluster federated cluster is really difficult. Like this is what keeps major Major companies up at night is how do we how do we even do this stuff? And so this this is a That the type of making that integration easy Would be I think would be a good Driver of people towards you because you could say well we have a point and click install that does that Just go install it and try it out and so so I think you can you can get the additional visibility Visibility with with that one use case on out Thanks for that. I agree We just had someone asking about that yesterday in the channel So so there's a there's a small window if you build it, they will come until somebody else builds it And then they'll go to them if they do it first so That totally um, yeah Another dreams Just to clarify real quick in terms of so that's actually one thing that measure is really yet to get to is to build in kind of the environment as a noun and hence kind of clusters and environments and Speaking of an nsm domain just to clarify for my own edification is You can have multiple domains within a kubernetes cluster. What defines an nsm domain is somewhat It is Pretty flexible as I understand it. Yeah, it's actually super super flexible I usually refer to them as network service registry domains because it makes it super clear what we're talking about which is It's a place where you have registered People who you know network services and the endpoints that provide them and those endpoints Anywhere frankly And clients can connect to them from Anywhere Which is the whole point behind inter domain network service mesh And we usually usually because it's just easier to get the demos up and going usually people will do network service registry domain that is isomorphic to your kubernetes cluster But the point where the whole thing gets super interesting is when You can get a network service Um independent of where you're running Yeah, get back or offer it What do you guys say to folks who who chalk up their understanding of nsm to nsm being a Well an orchestrator is wrong but a facilitator of uh additional container network interfaces Um, I think it's sort of missing the point Because the the interfaces are merely a mechanism Right they're they're just a tool any other tool would do it's sort of like saying that Envoy is really just uh a thing that that munges ip packets It misses the bulk of what it's doing Does that make sense? Yeah, you know It doesn't happen to be the case that all that stuff winds up in ip packets Sure But at the level that of most of the stuff that envoy is doing I don't think it actually cares Right Um, it's just that the existing users are already on ip networks. Nice. Uh, thanks. Thanks for this guys. This is actually um, so We'll have to see if uh Nikolai is is inclined to maybe add some of those sample apps here That would be fantastic to have Uh to have some people get familiar with the adapter harsheny has been fantastic from lumina Um, if if you guys have met her Yeah, I've prem told me about harsheny, but I've not met her yet. Um, if if you can Do me a favor and create a github issue on this, uh, that that would be fantastic and Uh, with that we're out of time and um, so Is there any last uh last minute request that people have or last minute comments? Okay, well with that I want to thank everyone for your time And we will see you at cube.com next week if you're there and we will see you here the week after Thank you.  Awesome. Thanks a lot. Thanks. Bye. Bye guys. Bye. Good. Bye