Yesterday I was actually next door and at the digital health summit I was moderating a panel there and a big topic of course was interoperability, MRIs to get them to talk to the electronic health record, remote patient monitoring hubs into the EHR, wearables into the EHR and it occurred to me that you know as wearable ecology is developing that we're starting to come into our own data silo issue. I've been writing about a concept I call parables which basically takes the value of different wearables on your person and to combine them into something better and that's just one aspect. I really think that's going to start taking shape in 2020 and so as that happens the ecology all of us will have to respond and so that's what we're here to talk about today. With me I've got Elizabeth Bowman, she is vice president of marketing and growth both those things at December labs and of course Catherine Fantasi how did I do? Perfect. And she's CEO and co-founder of Apollonero Systems so welcome. So I wanted to start with you Liz, I can call you Liz here Liz. Yeah I think you know as I see wearable startups I see them sort of falling into two camps. One is that those that recognize that the wearable in the app are part and parcel of the platform or product and those who are focused on their hardware innovation and realize sometimes a little late in the process that hey we need an app and so maybe for the benefit of that ladder group give us a little idea of what's involved in developing an app and coordinating with your product. Sure. So if you look at app development for wearables there is a few things that are very particular and that are different from just regular app development in general. So one of the things is that from a user perspective really the app and the wearable are one. They see it as one product. They don't differentiate and say hey you know here's a company that actually you know created the hardware that you know I'm going to use that I'm going to wear and here is an app development company. You know they really perceive it just as one and if you think about it for example if you would research a product on Google you know you type it in one of the results if that wearable has an app that would come up would probably be you know the app store ratings. So again if those app store ratings for example would be negative that would directly influence the perception that you know a user would have of that specific product. So I don't think there are too many data yet on actually you know at the app store wearables you know affecting user satisfaction but there are you know statistics that say for example that users that have a bad experience with mobile apps think in 60% you know bad about the company that you know built that app. So if you take that to the level of wearables where really a lot of times the wearable without the app will not function or you know will not even start you know you can just imagine how much higher it is and then on the other hand Christian was you know mentioning the importance of data and you know for wearables in general you know wearables sending over data receiving data and that also happens all you know through the app for example if you want to get meaningful analytics you know you won't really be able to receive them you know the product might be you know very good but if you want a usable interface that will display that and it won't be really I think we're you know at the start four or five years ago maybe you know everything was really kind of silo Fitbit is things like you know Google Fit or starting to incorporate other folks how you know what does that mean for somebody going into do an app now that maybe they didn't have to worry about I think on the one hand again today a wearable without an app really is like most of the time doesn't have any meaning so in the example of Apollo for example you know there's there's a couple of things that I think happen for that that are true for many different products that we could highlight there on the one hand it's you know how do you connect with the wearable so most of the time to do that via Bluetooth but there's also you know a few other options from you know reading data through computer vision for example a medical wearable device or or new field communication and I've seen but in this case you know we did we have Bluetooth which is really good on battery power so it's you know user friendly in that sense then really if you look at you know the actual user interface most wearables don't really you know have a screen or a display so the app really is the only user interface you know that that user sees first-hand so again you know that's a big responsibility on the app then Apollo has not gone yet to towards FDA approval but it's something you know that we that they've been looking at from the very start so that also is something totally different when it comes to app development as you have to have different kind of development processes different kind of unit testing you have to have everything FDA compliant then another thing that happens that is you know the item the issue of scalability when you have you know a product that involves hardware you can't really update it all the time as you can an app so it really is very essential that an app is being built from the very start in a sense that you know you can add anything from gamification communities and other things to it and you know keep the user really engaged which is one of the things that we were talking with Catherine today about is that you know and maybe you can you want to take over there but but it's so important that it's so important for wearables to actually be user friendly and attractive and beautiful so yeah if you don't have that then maybe we should take a step back and you know tell everybody about your product and what you're trying to achieve briefly and then what sort of data and other things you're connecting to oh sure so Apollo is a and I'm Catherine I'm a CEO Apollo and Apollo actually started as a research project so before this ever became a product actually started and if anybody saw Dr. David Raymond talk a little bit earlier actually started as a research project at the University of Pittsburgh so what we are looking to do is figure out okay there's lots of data there's lots of ways that we can understand what happens with changes in the body but how do we empower people to actually take control of their health because if you just provide we actually did research on this if you just tell someone that they're stressed out or that their sleep is bad and then there isn't a solution on how to remedy that you actually can just make people more anxious and they actually don't improve their lives and then they stop using the wearable or stop using the data because it's frustrating for them it's like being a kid in school and getting a C minus on the test and you can't figure out how to get better at it and so for us we are looking at ways to help intervene with the human body to actually improve people's resilience to stress essentially when you get stressed out all the time from whatever that may be from lack of sleep or your product stress at work or your family life whatever it may be you end up getting run down over time and this has wide sweeping effects for your mental and your physical health and we can see that in biometrics right we can see that your heart rate your blood pressure or your heart rate variability but then how do you help someone in the moment that they're stressed out actually improve those biometrics and we discovered that vibration and certain layered form kind of almost feels like ocean waves actually mimics what the body does when you deep breathe and so we ended up developing after doing clinical trials at the University of Pittsburgh which demonstrated that we could actually change stress biometrics so it can improve heart rate variability we can take down heart rate under stress we can put blood pressure under stress we try to figure out where would someone wear this right how could we most easily dissent should this be in a bed should this be in a shirt should this I mean every single different kind of form factor you could think of and we came up with a wearable because that's what users told us they said I need something I can use when I need to fall asleep but also when I need to fall asleep in my bed or on a plane or when I'm in you know when I'm traveling in a weird hotel room or when I you know I'm in a meeting and I need to focus or my boss can notice that I'm you know falling asleep or I can't sit in front of the spreadsheet I need something to help me right and so it became a wearable and all of these things were around user experience but the app was something so critical to what we do not only to deliver right deliver these frequencies which you can pick from programs that are designed to help you focus or help you wake up or programs that you would set to help you fall asleep but also for the intake of data right so the next phase of Apollo is integrating into these data systems to be able to show the users in real time that they actually your heart rate actually is going down your heart rate variability actually is going up and so for us from the very beginning creating an app experience that is beautiful and really easy to use and a device that is beautiful and also very easy to use and comfortable with something from the outset that we very much considered everything was customer inquiry and testing and iteration over the whole period of the development of the product yeah so it's interesting I mean you started out by saying it's really something that you put on when you need it and so so in a sense you can't be the one measuring to see when my heart rate variability is flat and I need to calm down right but the app can integrate in with other wearables that you might be wearing yeah so tell us a little bit more about how that works right so in the future let's say we integrate with other wearables that are being developed all over the place if you can see that someone's trending down and we know what their baseline is you can tell them hey you should use your Apollo you are not doing great today right and it's an actual solution to the problem like hey we noticed that your heart rate is really high okay well what's the person going to do about that right and they have a solution to the problem now and so they're you know and one of the things when you're talking about silos and you see that in healthcare all the time with different EMR's, different data systems none of them are talking to each other and that happens on the consumer side with wearables too right and then there are certain opportunities where like health kit is one platform where it all exists in one place but not every wearable sending all of their data to that place it's okay how do you bring the data together but then how do you make it meaningful and actionable for the user right now how do they contextualize all this data that we're giving to them and then what do they do about it and so Apollo what we're working on is creating an intervention but also creating a context for all of that data such that it's useful yeah and so just to be clear so that is that sort of future you're working on it now yeah we're working on it okay are there specific platforms that you're looking at I know earlier we talked about the aura ring I don't know that's something that yeah I mean the first one are ones where it's easy to access the platform and then we are in talks with multiple other wearables about direct integration with your products I would think that'd be something they'd be pretty receptive to arguably that gives them the answer to your stress to hear something you can do about it right and then also for the user experience they are able to see okay I've been tracking my data but now I'm using something that actually makes me better right and so that's good for both sides because you have a purpose to the data that you've been collecting and a way to actually track and see that your health is improving over time which ultimately is the goal right we started tracking with steps to try to encourage people to be fitter now we're tracking things like sleep so we can understand even deeper biometrics like heart rate variability but ultimately the goal for all of these wearables and whole ecosystem is to enable people to have more autonomy and control over their health right I think that's that's something that is very important you know to keep under consideration from the very start and I think that's one of the things that we have enjoyed so much in working with Apollo that there has been you know a clear vision of you know where does this start and where might this go at some point and that is something because I mean really if you think about it you know when you when you're building a product you have you know the firmware you have the hardware you have the software there are so many different teams that work at different velocities and then have to integrate at some point and I think that is I mean anyone who has been working in the space knows how challenging that is and I mean if you go you know down to the expo area and you go into you know the aisles of health sleep and wellness wearables you almost always see you know the device along with the app and one of the other things that I think is very fundamental here is that we're always you know gearing this towards you know the health aspect of you know Apollo and you know this is really with the origin also comes from you know as far as the research and everything and so this again from a technical point of view brings a lot of challenges to the table for example HIPAA compliance I mean if you know at some point you would want to integrate something as well with some kind of medical data for example I mean when you're you know when you're an app development company that means that the developers have to be trained in that regard you have to have very specific documentation the same as with FDA approval for example but then there's also the matter of accessibility you had mentioned you know that you have been envisioning from the beginning you know when and what kind of moment people would be using Apollo but then also when you know you for example you're think about using Apollo for different trials and everything always when you have these kind of subgroups within kind of you know a health context you have to look at people that have any kind of disabilities you know that you know might also be relevant when you're you know looking at something as simple as it seems you know as the user interface. Yeah so as you start to hold together data from disparate silos and then you know turn that into actionable insight you know here on this platform for example what sort of barriers there are the obvious barriers but how are you overcoming those to you know to bring in data from the OR ring to be able to feed the Apollo device to say it's time to calm down some of those challenges and how are you I mean I think the main challenge so the main challenge is quality of the data from the data sources I mean obviously there's the technical stuff like you have to connect in with Apple health kits or you have to connect directly through an SDK but the I think meaningful part that's more complicated and what we're really specializing in is understanding what data matters when group together and how you create profiles of that data and then how do you understand context wise why that data is changing around so that you don't accidentally aggravate your user like a lot of notifications are actually very annoying right and so you want to make sure that when you're providing guidance around people's health that one it's accurate as accurate as it can be but also that it's meaningful so you don't send them false alarms with their heart rate super high like yes of course it is I'm exercising right and so you know oh you know you want to make sure that you're not you're providing context and that you're not creating anxiety or neuroses over the data which is something I often see yeah I think we're like what is my HRV supposed to be I was like well just try to trend it upwards get some sleep and I think that's something in general when you think about wearables and really the objectives that you know people have when it comes to wearables you know you want it to be seamless you want it to be easy to wear you want it to be able to easily integrate into your life and the same thing you know happens again with the app that you also want it to be intuitive you want to know from the very start how everything works you want the onboarding to be very intuitive if you want any kind of analytics that you might be able to visualize to actually easily giving you the next steps as far as you know okay so what does this mean for me what kind of insights can I kind of get out of that and I think that you know just looking at this is kind of a parallel this intuitive and this you know really good fit in a way is also something that when you have any kind of collaboration is very important that you know I mean we sometimes try to see ourselves you know as if we were wearable you know when we integrate with how many such as Apollo you know that that kind of fit is really what what what makes this kind of partnership work are you seeing some sort of I mean we all have a pretty good idea of what wearables can do can tell us can't tell us or do at this point are you can you look out a few years based on what you're starting to see in development and what we might hope to see or folks might start wanting to help for me in general I mean there's always I think we're always looking towards improvements as far as you know the technology aspect of it and I mentioned in the beginning some you know trivial things such as battery power but you know really those things you know can be a pain and you know when we see the development in general you know it's been really going always you know towards improving the product and the overall user experience then as far as you know user interface design and just you know really continuing to optimize that I think that is also something you know that will continue to improve but really one of the milestones I believe will be you know kind of what happens with all of that data I mean it's really interesting what has been happening with Apple health kit and with Google Fit you know as far as accumulating kind of the data and making it also easier for app developers to access that data and you know just yeah overall creating something that can be meaningful in the end and I mean if you also look at it from you know more philosophical point of view wearables are you know most of the time supposed to you know make your life better at some point I mean you're looking always towards improvement especially when it comes to health and you know I think Apollo is a great example of that you're always looking towards really making lives better to you know give additional value to people and yeah I think that's kind of the mission that we're all on here. Okay I realized I didn't ask to see if anybody had any questions but anybody wants to ask something say hi or I don't know are there microphones? There's one other thing I think when we are looking at you know data and mechanism one of the things that I think trend-wise that's really happening is we went from tracking steps and fitness to more meaningful data collection around bigger health concepts right like sleep and stress and heart you know like the cardiac indicators and all these things and I think what's happening now with wearables is I think there's going to be a new class of wearables one that actually do things right that actually affect the body that you're seeing a trend doppel was up here we're up here and there's other kinds of wearables right for increased memory so I think mental health and over holistic lifestyle is going to be a thing beyond fitness and I think the other thing that people are starting to look at is how does this integrate into my life more completely and so I think you know product is one thing and speaking to app content right like how do you keep this user engaged with you as part of their ecosystem to improve their health right and so how do we better integrate wearables into the broader ecosystem so that we're not that gadget that someone has on but instead is this meaningful tool that they use to improve their lives over time and part of that is figuring out when the person would be most receptive to hearing about content or I mean even something as simple as your stress I mean you send that at the long time and you're like I know I know, thanks and AI is a huge component of that and as we talk about data and data silos as data becomes in a greater platform and we create content it's actually learning to personalize that content and curate those experiences for those individual people concepts where we all know that numerous data capture points are wearables whichever depends on what we're doing and where we are in the type of environment but you picked on the points of parables, can I just ask you to what's your vision of bringing real connectivity to wearables in the next year or so, can I specifically might because that's your idea how do you see it mapping out? Sure I think I think if you look at you know wherever you're going to strap or insert something there are different strengths and weaknesses this is a great place for a display and about the most hostile place you can find to be taking metrics, biometrics so this is better, battery life is an issue this is better still and so I think there's an opportunity to create a team and that's you know it can be partners, it doesn't have to be a Samsung or an Apple there's a team of three devices that all work together there's partnership opportunities too but I think folks need to be open to that because you know this is going to have to be the value decade, it's going to have to start now I think the ecosystem is better doing it together I think one of the interesting points and also that Catherine was mentioning is you know the importance of content and how that kind of integrates in this entire ecosystem that we're kind of talking about so just to give you an example one company when started with they have dedicated themselves to early breast cancer detection and one of the things that they found was that you know especially in the US it's very hard for women you know to take that step towards getting their tests on and everything so in this case for example they developed a wearable which is you know a patch that you can place on your breast and then you know be a computer vision can give you kind of a heat map that can give you at least you know kind of an idea on if you have a higher risk factor or so but knowing that this entire topic is very hard for women kind of the first approach that they're having is okay let's build an app that's targeting those women but giving them content giving them extra value it's kind of surrounding their overall health and also their anything from menstruation cycle to pregnancy etc and so they're kind of organically integrating them that into awareness around breast cancer that then you know connects to their wearable so I think just overall understanding what kind of people you can reach with your product and how you can improve their lives and how sometimes not the most direct way but you know kind of a more innovative way is actually the path of success in that sense and if not I just want to ask what can't you believe I didn't ask what can I not believe you didn't ask well I didn't answer it I guess one of the things that I noticed particularly when we're in these technology-centric settings is how do you understand who your user is and why they want to use your product and how that product benefits them and that's one thing that I see you know when you were talking about there's some startups that start and they've got a really beautiful hardware but they kind of forget about the app I think that that's also endemic with development across the board you come up with this really cool technological solution but then you find out that nobody actually cares about your solution or that the way that your solution works is actually entirely different than you thought it would be. Totally different population, totally different use case than you ever considered in the beginning and so I think in terms of the ecology and the development I think having an open mind about how these things kind of develop and really talking to people from the very beginning is so crucial to development from an app perspective and our work perspective to make sure that we're creating meaningful products for people to use. Thank you all for your attention and your time we really appreciate it.


They still get up and work three jobs every day to put food on the table heroes are people that are that are loving and are selfless that give their lives away to others at the expense of themselves heroes are people that are battling a disability or are battling an addiction and Every day I'm trying to get free from an alcoholic or a drug addiction or recovering from a trauma People suffer from PTSD and something terrible happened to them people that are victims of abuse But every day Despite that been in their lives they show up and they become the best version of them they can be


view board and introduce the members in attendance. Okay, I think Porter and I'm the chair. Let's see, we have Michael Burtwistle. Let's see, who else do we have here? I can't see everybody. Erica Vickles, Chris Brestrup is here. Anybody else? Jan just entered the virtual room. Oh, okay, and Jan, okay, I wasn't prepared to, and Jan, God, I'm sorry. Mark, what? Mark, what? Yes, of course, yeah. And Marine Pollock is the staff person. And several, what's that? Nate Malloy. Oh, is Nate here? I didn't, Nate Malloy's here too at this moment. Okay, Nate Malloy, who's a senior planning, a senior member of the planning board, the planning department. Anybody else pop in that I don't see here? Lindsay Schnarr. Oh, is Lindsay here? Okay, Lindsay Schnarr. They're not showing on my screen, so I can, I'm just roaming around here. Let me just see who else is around. So Lindsay's here, let me come down. That's all, you just needed to introduce the memo. Okay, all right, now I see everybody. Okay, so if we have any public comment that will come at the end of the meeting after older business, and at this point, I think we can start the meeting to see if there are any announcements. Anybody have any announcements? Actually, Chris, would this be a good time to talk about the memo, or would you like to wait? I could talk about it now in 15 minutes. So the building commissioner, actually we, the building commissioner and I were asked to come up with some ideas to help businesses open, businesses that have been closed, and potentially have new businesses open during this time of everything being shut down and trying to get our economy back on its feet. And so the building commissioner came up with the idea of a 180 day temporary zoning that would allow certain uses. And those uses would be restaurants and retail uses, personal care establishments, and oh, retail establishments in certain districts, which would be just the business districts, the BG, the BL, the BBC, the N and commercial zoning districts, and some non-conforming uses to be granted what we would call an administrative approval rather than having to go through planning board or zoning board of appeals. And as I said before, it would just be for 180 days coming, starting sometime this summer, we hope. And there would also be accessory uses associated with that. And they would include dining, outdoor dining, live entertainment, and potentially drive-through. But I think what the building commissioner meant by drive-through is what we're currently doing now. We have curbside pickup. We're not talking about having a drive-through window like Dunkin' Donuts has or anything like that. So the effort is to just make it easier for those restaurants that, the existing restaurants that are coming back, they're not gonna be able to have a full complement of people in the interior. I think they're gonna be limited at first to 25% of their normal capacity. So how can we allow them to have more customers and potentially allow them to come back to their former status? And so the idea was, well, maybe the restaurants have space on their sidewalk out in front of their building. Maybe that space is public space. Maybe it belongs to the town. What kinds of things can we do to allow them to use the space outside their building and potentially town right of way to serve outside? And then do we wanna allow them to have entertainment of some sort to attract customers? So the idea is that during this 180 day period, people who are trying to reestablish their businesses and add potentially accessory uses or people who are starting new businesses, maybe some of our restaurants and retail stores have failed. We don't really know which ones have failed, but some of them may have and they're gonna be empty storefronts. And so how can we allow new businesses to start without having to go through zoning board of appeals and planning board approval? So the idea is that the town council could give the building commissioner authorization to grant administrative approval to these businesses. And then the other part of it is that, and this is what I thought Catherine was referring to before, but that the design review board review for signage, lighting and placement of outdoor furnishings and other non-permanent building or site alteration would be suspended during that time period for those particular uses in those particular zoning districts. So this is coming before the town council tonight. The town council is hearing about it really for the first time. I think Maureen sent you the memo that Paul Backelman wrote along with the proposed zoning amendment. And so it's coming before town council. The town council will probably refer it to one of their committees. We're expecting it will be referred to the CRC, Community Resources Committee and that they will take it up, excuse me, at their meeting tomorrow during the day. And then it will also be presented as an idea to the planning board on Wednesday. If the town council thinks it's a good idea and likes it wants it to be pursued then we'll talk about probably scheduling public hearing sometime in the next three weeks to a month to allow this to happen. It would probably be a public hearing with the planning board and the CRC and then it would go back to town council. So this is an idea that just came about last week and it's starting to be talked about now and you're certainly welcome to add your comments and thoughts on it. Anybody have any? I think it's a good idea. I wanted to ask whether the part about the design review or sort of elimination temporarily, whether we couldn't put something in there that just would say that this would be reviewed for businesses keeping to their already approved logos, colors, fonts or something like that so that we don't just suddenly have an explosion of all sorts of messy, new, you know what I mean? I'm not quite sure how that could be worded but it would just sort of let people know in these businesses that yes, they can add additional signs that say go here or this is us on the sidewalk or whatever but they should keep to the look they already have. That makes sense? Yep, I made that note. Thank you. Is this go along with opening up the street that was proposed by Gabrielle earlier? Is that also part of this? Yes, that's a second part. So there are actually three parts to it. The first part is a zoning, rezoning, allowing the zoning to be relaxed. The second part is public ways allowing the town council to authorize the town manager to authorize use of the public ways. And this could either be, it could be sidewalks or it could be going out into the parking spaces along the street. There's not that much traffic now. So what if we took over some parking spaces and allowed those to be used for downing? They've done it in other places. In fact, I think the building commissioner sent around an article about it. And I don't know if I copied Maureen but I'll try to find that article and ask Maureen to send it to you. Because it really, it shows some exciting ideas that have been tried in other towns and are being tried in other towns. And so I think we're gonna see more of this kind of thing particularly now that we're trying to get back on our feet after COVID-19. And then I wanted to mention that the third part of this is working with the board of licensed commissioners with regard to liquor licenses. So businesses that currently are allowed to serve alcohol within the confines of their establishments would potentially be able to serve outside on the sidewalk or in a parklet that's created in a parking space that they need to get permission from the board of licensed commissioners. They will also need to get permission from this state from the ABCC. So that process hasn't been figured out yet. But that's one of the things that we're gonna be working on.  Is that the plan? Yes, that is the plan. Yeah, so any street that has a restaurant or a food service or like black sheep has tables this wouldn't just refer to North and South Pleasant Street then I guess it would also take into consideration the side streets as well. That's right. And it could also include places like we mentioned non-conforming uses. So there's a pizza place on, I think it's either Sunset Ab or Fearing Street. Maybe it's Sunset and Fearing. So they are non-conforming use in residential district. They might be allowed to do something like this too. So we wanted to include that kind of activity as well. Erica has a question. Thanks. So one thing I wanted to make sure is it's written in somewhere that we shouldn't hamper accessibility of the sidewalks. It still has to maintain, remain a priority. And I love the idea of taking over the street or some parking spaces in part for that reason. Is that what I was wondering is if the 180 days could be considered, of course we don't know what the colleges are gonna do, but imagine that this starts in June, that would take us through September. The influx of new people with money in their pockets comes at the beginning of September. And if that could be a boon to businesses to serve the college population in this way, I mean, that might be possible or maybe write in that you could reconsider extensions of time if it's working well or something like that. The 180 days would actually go probably till the end of the year, because it would be six months.  And then, that's right, I was just thinking, that's three, and then the last one was, yeah, kind of in Jan's comment is when you say temporary signage, what's the definition? I mean, everything can be removed and so maybe some clarification of that so that if a new business does start. I think you said too that if a new business starts, then we would give them permission to do whatever they wanted to do for that 180 days. But if they plan to remain in business, my understanding is then they still have to come before the various boards, including the design review board to get official approval, is that right? Not necessarily. Anything they wanna do because they still have to go through people, it's just not us. No, okay, I'm a little confused. So if you and I opened a business in an empty storefront and we threw up a bunch of signs because the design review board doesn't have to approve them at this time. The building commissioner does, right? I forget what the memo said. Chris, what did the memo say? Somebody looks at this stuff. The building commissioner would look at it and would look at the requirements for signs, how many signs are allowed, what are the sizes of signs that are allowed? So in terms of signs, the thing that I envision being relaxed would be the sandwich board signs because we would want to attract attention to these places. But it's not as if the sign bylaw goes out the window because we would still be, I would be consulting with the building commissioner and we would still be looking at making sure that the signs comply with the current zoning bylaw to the extent that they can. Michael, did you have a question? Yes, I do. I'm wondering whether any way to speed up this process. It seems to me all the steps that Chris was talking about in terms of going through the council and the CRC and having a public hearing and then back to the council. It sounds like that's exactly the problem that we're trying to solve, getting things moving quickly. And my question is, is an emergency bylaw of this sort? Does it require a public hearing as well? It does. We've consulted the town attorney. We've talked to Joel Bard about this and we do need to go through the process of amending the zoning bylaw to allow this. But what we're hoping is that by the time that things are really opened up and people are feeling like coming out again, which will probably be sometime in mid July that we can have something in place by mid July. I think that's two more time frame. Yeah, I think we ought to try to shoot for having it open in June. And that means, it seems to me that it means, if we have to have a public hearing, it means posting the notice for a public hearing right away and having that public hearing right away, even though we don't know exactly what the issue is. We know what the issue is. We don't know what the solution that will be proposed will be. But if we can post a public hearing right away, then we can move toward finality of the specifics sooner. Yeah, I agree, makes sense. So here's one thing. It's a little bit of a, what I'm not sure what to call it, but in our current zoning, I think because we're a city now, the city known as the town of Amherst, after town council votes to adopt the zoning bylaw change, we have to wait 14 days before it actually goes into effect. I remember when we did the repeal and replace last year, that that's what happened. So I think when we're talking about the middle of July, we're talking about having a decision by town council sometime in later June, and then by the time the 14 days elapses will be in the middle of July. So I think we are thinking of an expedited timeframe, but I think that's good advice, Michael, and I'll pass that along. Thank you. And I also want to say that I think this is a great idea, and I want to make sure we get it done. Okay. Yeah, let us be hands or hands up. Oh, go ahead. I also think this is a great idea, and I agree with Michael that the sooner the better. So I just have a general kind of feasibility question, which is, I don't know if anyone's really looked at where businesses that would be able to take advantage of this allowance exist. And if there are any businesses that don't have adequate space adjacent to their property that they could take advantage of, I think it might be worth just mapping out, not in any kind of extensive time consuming way if possible, but mapping out where these places are, and if there are businesses that really don't have sidewalk access or it's going to impede accessibility, that there might be a way to provide them with adequate space that's perhaps like you said in the parking lot, but just to kind of even the playing field so that we don't have businesses that don't have the capacity to do this simply based on issues that are kind of beyond their control. I don't know if that's possible, but I think it's worth a look in an effort to see if something can be done. Yeah, I was wondering when you mentioned past a buster, you know, it's so steep, I can't imagine putting a table and chairs outside there. Right, it's floating down the sidewalk. Yeah, but that street though has quite several places, but I don't know how, yeah.  I mean, it doesn't have to be really close here. Then there's the very popular Mexican restaurant back in that alley, is that Bueno Assam? So, yeah, they have no, you know, I maybe they could put tables right there or go in the back, but I have to revisit, maybe I'm missing something here, but so somebody throws up a store and sort of anything goes. I mean, the building inspector isn't looking at the aesthetics of the sign, he's looking to see how many signs you can stick in the window. And so somebody comes in the middle of Amherst and paints the building bubblegum pink. Does that mean it stays? That's permit, you know, that's gonna be okay forever or doesn't the design review board after this limited 180 days click back in, don't they have to come to somebody to say, can we like to open up a store and we're gonna paint a bubblegum pink? And don't we have a say about that? I'm not talking about the temporary, I'm talking about the permanent, where I think the design review board, if we have any purpose in town, should be given a chance to review what these owners want to do on a more permanent basis. Now, maybe I'm missing something, but seems like we're out of the loop. So one of the things that the article says is that this design review board review being suspended applies only to signs, lighting, placement of outdoor furnishings and any other non-permanent building or site alteration. Yeah, that's, I have no problem with that for the temporary, but what happens if they remain on less as a more permanent business than what? Well, why are we here if we're always looking at every little, we try to look at every little thing. Oh, sometimes the colors get wonky, but we're doing our best to present Amherst in its best light. And now, let's suppose five different businesses come in and just throw up anything and they're there forever without any review. I have to say, I don't think that that's right, but maybe others have no problem. Well, part of it, if I may, is that the building commissioner is going to consult with the planning director and that's me. So he and I will be putting our heads together and I'm sure we will be showing things to Maureen and Nate as well. So it's not kind of a, you know, free for all, there still will be review of things, probably not as thorough as what, I mean, certainly not as thorough as what you would do because you have five members and you're very, you know, careful about your reviews, but it wouldn't be as if there were no review at all. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. And we would try to adhere to the DRB criteria that are listed in the zoning bylaw. Also, it just states temporary things don't get on review, but if somebody were painting the building, that's considered permanent. And then it would either come to us or you'd tell them they'd have to wait, right, Chris? Well, that's true except that only painting buildings within 150 feet of the town common comes before the DRB. But if you paint a building elsewhere, it actually doesn't come before the DRB, which is weird, I know. But the DRB doesn't jurisdiction over paint, you know, paint colors. Corda came to us. Corda isn't working. They came sort of after the fact. Yeah, I mean, we called them there in violation, but they weren't really. They didn't need to get permission to paint the building purple, unfortunately. Oh, okay. All right. Well, I think you know. I mean, I just, you know, I think either we do what we do our job or we don't do our job. I'm having no problem with the 180 days. 180 days, anything goes because we need business. But, you know, after it's over, people are going to come to us and say, gee, how'd that building get there in the middle of downtown? Where was the design review board? And they'll say, well, you know, we weren't allowed to chip in. So. It won't include buildings. You know, we're not allowing buildings to go in like that. We're just. Oh, okay. It's only sign each. Well, I don't know. All right. Yep. So it's not like when he's pleasant street is all of a sudden going to be there and you won't have anything to say about it. Okay. All right. Well, okay. All right. Is there any other comments? And it sounds and it sounds like this is just the beginning of this conversation and there'll be a lot of opportunities for residents of Amherst to weigh in. There would be a public hearing through the town council or the planning board. Planning board. The town. Well, for a zoning amendment, the CRC needs to hold a public hearing. The CRC acts on the behalf of the town council. The planning board also needs to hold a public hearing. The way I'm understanding it now is that the town council and this and the planning board would, excuse me, the CRC and the planning board would get together and hold a joint public hearing. I think that's what the current proposal is. So it could be that that public hearing happens as early as June 17th. And then it would go to town council for them to vote on it. Okay. But that's the quickest timeline I've seen. Sure. Okay. And so I guess we'll just keep an eye on that. I can certainly inform any information that you provide me. I can forward to the DRV members. Sure. Yeah. All right. So let's move on to our next agenda item. Okay. Which is, let's see here, which is TV Bank North. Heather, I'm going to now make you a panelist, which means that you may use your camera and your microphone.  And press the button that says start video. Okay. There we go. Hi, Heather. Hi, Heather. How are you? Okay. Thank you for explaining that at the beginning, but I'm kind of used to that now. So... Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry. With all these meetings. Would you like to introduce yourself and explain what you're requesting?  Okay, great. Bear with me for one moment. All this new technology, huh? I know. Okay, so this and then this. And so you're from the signed company, correct? Correct, yeah. Heather Jadko with Philadelphia Sign. We represent numerous sign companies. So I'll wait a minute until you can... Yeah, just give me one second. I just need to rotate the page, rotate this way. And then I'm going to share it, share. Here we go. Okay, can everyone see this? Yes. Okay. So currently there are two existing wall signs at the bank and a ground sign. The proposal is to remove the two wall signs, one on the front elevation and one on the rear elevation and replace them with these square logos that just say TD. So currently the two wall signs, they're more of a rectangular shape and they say TD Bank and they're proposing to remove them and replace them with this new style. So each sign is four square foot, internally illuminated. The rear sign will be replaced at the same location and the front side, it looks like will be moved up above the doorway in the windows. Currently it's kind of on the left side of the building. I think I did. So this is a triangle street would be located right here. Oh, no, right here, sorry. Right, this way. Can everyone see my mouse? Right, so the E02 is on the parking lot elevation and the E01 is on the front. Okay, so triangle street would be along here. Okay, bear with me. Right. So there's a picture of the current wall sign on the front elevation towards the left side of the building. Oh, right here? Yeah. And they want to move it up over the doorway in the windows. I'm going to interrupt you for one second and mention to the DRB members that at the beginning of this pandemic, TD Bank submitted an application for replacement of this sign. Oh, that was a long time ago. Yeah. No, they just did. Oh, somebody else did. At the beginning of this pandemic. Oh, okay. And because the DRB, according to your rules and regulations and in the zoning bylaw, the DRB has 30 days to review an application. And so we well exceeded that amount of time due to the town manager's office put a stop to all board meetings for a while. And so you may see soon that this sign will be replaced.  Unfortunately, the board was not able to provide recommendations for this sign. But I wanted just to be transparent about that. But to continue with this sign, that's the front one. And then this would be the replacement of the one in the back. The existing rare sign. That's consistent. So they are moving. The bank is moving towards replacing most of their signage, updating it with just the logo, just the TD. They're removing the bank text on most of their signs of their rebranding. Can you describe the dimensions of the current signs? The new ones are four by four, I understand. But what are the old ones? The replacement are two by two, two foot by two foot, four square feet. Oh, right. Yeah. And I don't, actually I do not have the measurements of the existing signage. They are narrower than not as high as two foot. I don't think. Are the current signs internally illuminated? They are, yes. Are you still asking questions, Michael? No, I'm sorry. That's okay. I, could you go back to the view of the current front? Maureen, please. So I think the only real concern I have is the shadow of, you know, the building. It looks like it might be, the sign might even be more hidden above the door. It's a little hard to tell from this photo, but I do think that the space where the current sign is seems like a good location for a large sign of some sort to just as a business owner's interest to find the most obvious location for signage. It seems like that's a better location in my opinion than over the door. So that's my, really my only concern. So could we ask the applicant to respond to that positioning of the sign? I don't, I was not given any extenuating reason why they want to move it over the door or over the windows. So I would assume from that, that they just prefer to identify the entrance more than to have it off to the side, but I'm just kind of presuming that from my work with them. If the board feels that that's a better placement, I'm sure that they would agree to that. And I mean, unless they had some extenuating circumstance that they had to reposition it, but I would not see why they wouldn't agree to that if that's the feeling that it's a better placement there. I do hear the argument for, you know, trying to identify the door. I think that's important. I think that can also, you know, maybe it's a second sign. I don't think that, I don't think there's a disadvantage at least from my perspective to having a second sign so that there's one over the door and one in that area where there's no windows or perhaps there's just something on the door itself like a print, I don't know what's there currently. I would assume they would have some sort of door vinyl with the hours that typically they have something like that. I would, I mean, I would suggest that if, I can, we can condition it. If you want to condition it approved at that current location, and then if for some reason they respond that there was some circumstance that they have to have it over the doors, then we'd have to just re-approach the board. Just to clarify, Heather, the DRB provides recommendations. And so these recommendations will be provided to the building commissioner as you seek the building permit application, approval for the application. Yeah. I did originally submit the application already and then it was, then it was referred back to the board. So what are other members feeling about the location of the wall sign replacement? Well, I agree with Lindsay. I think the current sign is a better place and it seems to me since that's the only building in that, or that's the only business in that area of the building, the confusion as to where the right door is seems to be not a relevant issue. And I think the sign would look better where the current sign is. I also want to say that I think the current, the replacement sign is a better looking sign than the original, simpler, cleaner, does the job better. So I would suggest that if the bank company doesn't object that that sign be replaced where the current sign is. And I like logo, it's a clean logo. So I have no argument, it's whatever you all feel the bank feels is best for them. Yeah, I mean, they're gonna have a new sign out on the street there, that big one which presumably will be a larger logo as well. And this is just a small two foot square lighted sign almost like a light, just like a light with a mark on it. And if they want to have it over the door, it's true it might be obscured by the overhang, but if it's lit and you're at street level almost no problem with seeing it. So if they want to have a big sign and then just something that marks the door that's fine too, I mean, they're gonna have to move the wiring, it'll cost them more, but it doesn't bother me. I'm just looking at the Google street view. I'm trying to get closer, but of course it's not working for me. I had a very, very hard time getting these Google photos. I don't know, some sites are so easy to get a picture and some sites it's very difficult to get a street view. Yeah, I think either location could work. I agree with Lindsey that there's something, there's a visibility argument to be made to replacing the sign in its current location. However, of the two other businesses who have storefronts in that building, one of them does have their sign directly above the door and the other one has their sign at the roofline, interestingly. So it's already, we already see a variety of responses there. The thing that will make it visible if it's above the door is the fact that it's illuminated. So I think I would be fine approving either solution. Any other members or I think everyone provide a comment? Okay, so. So what are we saying that offer a suggestion but doesn't seem to be, people don't have strong feelings. Do whatever they feel best. Is that how you're hearing it? It sounds like Michael, Katherine, Jane and Erica all agree that if it makes sense for the bank to still locate it above the door, it sounds like everyone is okay with it. Sounds like Lindsey would, are you okay if it would be over the door or would you still, are you still adamant that it'd be located on that to the left of the door? No, it's just an observation. Yeah. I don't think anybody's adamant about it either way. It seems to me that you approve the sign. I want that sign. And simply suggest that the bank rethink where they want to put it. Right, yeah. Either place is acceptable to the bank. Should we just make a motion then to approve with the recommendation that the bank makes sure that the sign is visible under the overhang? Something like that? Sure. You want to make that as a motion then if we can. Thank you. Okay, nice to move. Okay, is there a second? Sure, I'll second that. Okay, all right. Okay, any other discussion about the placement of the sign? If not, all in favor, say aye. Aye. Aye opposed? Any abstained? Okay. And so that was for that sign. And for this back, back to the building sign. Where would the location be for the replacement? That's the same location about the same location. Yeah. So is everyone okay with that location? Okay. All right. All right, well, congratulations. I'll type up those, the recommendations and email a copy to you into Rob Mora. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Good luck with everything. Good luck. Thank you. Okay. So let me stop the sharing the screen and Nate, do you want to be in charge of sharing your screen? Sure, I can do that. I just, so yeah, more control. Okay, so Kendra Park. I think we're all set. Can everyone hear me? Yes. We can't see you though. Yeah, that's great. You should focus on the material and not how bad I look. I'm getting kind of shaggy. Yeah, I'll, I think everything's in PDF. Yeah, there it is. If everyone can see that. Right. This is the revised plan. I'll say it's mostly final.  There is an accurate walkway, so it becomes an accessible loop.  So you realize that the hillside slide was only going to be about a four foot slide. And a lot of the vendors questioned how that would work. They required a slide to be above grade on concrete bootings and then have rubberized surface around it. So the vision of having a really nice slide built into the hillside was not really what we get. So we revised it to have this. It also allows for, like I said, an accessible route and a future connections north along North Pleasant. So there's a few different areas where, you know, pathways can connect to this because it is substantially at grade, we're not bringing in as much fill. If we look at the plan, there's in this, I'll say this pink color, there's granite sitting walls and granite blocks as benches. So up here in the north, there's a granite block here. This area is a piece stone kind of, it's in place of a sandbox now. We have a piece stone area. And it's about, gosh, I think it's, I don't know, it's at least 12. I think I was gonna say it's at 24 feet. I don't have to look at that. Maybe, I think it's 14 feet diameter. Yeah, 40 feet diameter.  If we keep moving to the south, there's this amphitheater is still built into the hillside. So there will be a little topography here still with some granite or stone on benching. They're coming further to the south. There's a mix of regular, you know, standard fabricated benches and then stone on benches. I suppose we try to explore it out. I might, hold on a second. That's not me, but. All right. Let me mute everyone. All right. And then there's just the more, you know, combination of granite as we move along. On the other side of the, we've dumped over here now, there's another sitting wall that'll enclose a plaza area. And there'll be tables and chairs inside of that.  There's a mix of five benches. So there's a bench here. We'll get it here along the play area and one along the path. And those are, will be, you know, fabricated benches. They'll be metal. They'll all have backs and arms. So they can be, you know, help people get up and down. In the orange here, there's a number of rocks and boulders. So the town also plans to add a number of rocks that can be used to climb on, to sit on, and just also as part of a natural barrier. If we look along the edges, we're not proposing to use a fabricated fence. We're going to use plantings and seeding and other elements to create barriers. So, you know, I think a fence would be costly and also difficult to, you know, to install in terms of how it would fit in with the rest of the park. So along the Pleasant Street, you can see the planting beds. There's envisioned, you know, ground cover with understory trees and shrubs and then a few larger trees. There already are some existing trees here. So, you know, the park design really responds to the topography and existing trees and tries to preserve as many as we can. Along on the East side, so East Pleasant Street is here in this area, which isn't shaded yet. This is a naturalized play area. So it even starts here. There'll be some vertical stumps and, you know, more planting here for kids. These vertical stumps will cross the path and lead into an area that is all wood mulched and there'll be logs that'll be, you know, laid down on grade and maybe stacked on top of each other. They'll be secured with piping that is anchored into the ground. So like a threaded rod that isn't buried. So this becomes an area with stumps, logs, and then also some other rocks and granite blocks that'll define this area. This area is something that the playground vendors will not, they won't endorse necessarily as a playground because it's something they don't typically do. So it's something that the town is gonna work on with the contractor. You know, we've researched what is a safe material under here. So there'll be about eight inches of a wood fiber for a safe surface. And most things will be, you know, less than two feet high. But, you know, most playground vendors will not use real wood.  So they, you know, Pulaski Park did use it and we know it can be used. This is the, a rubberized surface shown here. So it won't be this color necessarily, but it'll be one big rubberized surface with play equipment on it. And we're looking to use manufacturer equipment here, both because it's inclusive, it's accessible. So we have some nice successful features and accurate spinner that is pretty big that people can get onto, you know, spin around. We have larger climbing structures, you know, that are targeted to the two to five year old end rage and the five to 12, that can be used for anyone. And then in the sitting area, this will, you know, this area, everything is accessible.  The main walkway east to west is gonna be an asphalt walkway, it'll be at least five feet. And it'll become incorporated into the sidewalk, the sidewalks of the town. So it'll be plowed in the winter. It's the only part of the park that will be open year round and also, you know, open at night. So along the path, there's one bench, there's some bike racks and there's some proposed lighting, you know, in and around this walkway so that it'll be illuminated at night. There's some light poles here. The plan is to reuse some acorn lighting that's found downtown and install those. And then when, you know, if there's a plan in the future for, you know, a redesigned light fixture for Kendrick Park or this area, we would just remove the poles and the lamps and put in the new lighting. There's three trash cans, one located here, here and here. There, you know, it's a 40 gallon trash can that looks like the rest of the ones in downtown and it's half recycling and half trash. We hope to have it be, you know, just to carry and carry out. There's an entry sign located here at Miss Little Planting Island. You know, on one side, there's, you know, welcome to Kendrick Park and some grant acknowledgments that need to happen. And on the other side will be playground rules and regulations. I think according to the standards, we need to identify the play equipment and have a few safety guidelines. The playground vendors like to have a freestanding sign kind of in each play area, but we're gonna have it all on the backside of the sign so it reduces the number of structures and signs. This was envisioned as a pollinator garden and it still is. It'll be perennials and things that are easy to maintain for the town public works. It's not, you know, if the garden club of Amherst would like to volunteer, they may have some opportunity but we're not envisioning this necessarily to be, you know, a really intense type of garden. And then this area over here is a rain garden. So, you know, under this, there'll be some sub drains and it'll go to an overflow here that'll capture some rainwater and then it will, you know, get piped into the town. Stormwater system, but this, you know, there is this area for, you know, overland flow and then, you know, try to have some retention here before it, you know, if it gets into the system. I don't know if there's any questions at this point. I was gonna go through one more presentation just to show a little bit more about materials. So this is the style bench. It's not the color that we like. So this is, there'll be six foot benches and eight foot benches, both with backs. And we're looking at having a center armrest. So it's a different style than we have. It's, you know, we're not gonna use the plastic slats. Here's the type of table and recycling trash can.  Here are the tables and chairs. So these will be a one piece table set for the plaza area. And here's one with an accessible seat. You know, I guess they can be bolted down. And when we presented to the planning board, it was recommended that they somehow be secured even though they are a few hundred pounds. I guess there's concern that someone might take them. In terms of colors, this may not look very nice, but the manufacturer offers about a dozen colors. Most of them are pretty bright. These are kind of the colors that the team was looking at. I've asked them to submit more images, but you know, these are the colors we would choose from for the tables and chairs. And we're also looking at having two picnic tables that would be in the mulch area. They'd be all metal, one piece. Again, maybe this type of muted color as opposed to being a bright red. Here is the entry sign. The idea is that it would be no more than 12 square feet. So four feet by three feet roughly. You know, it'd be a signboard that would be with two stone columns that would be attached to and there's the front and the back. And that has yet to be worked out. I mean, I think, you know, feel free to comment on the general style or design. We want them to be something simple. These are images just illustrating what we're considering in terms of materials. So this type of square granite or stone block. Here's some T stone and here's some other natural rock. So this just gives you an idea of how, you know, what it will look like materials. Here's, you know, if in the amphitheater or the curved seating, this is the type of stone we'd be looking at. We're working with a stone vendor now just to get cost estimates and information on installation. In terms of the grass mounds, we drew inspiration from a few different areas. This image here is Washington Square Park. It's synthetic. Here are some more natural ones. So, but there will be two mounds in that northern grass area. We're looking at using, you know, installing it with sod. So it'll be something like this, not too extreme, but something kids can explore. These are images of Pulaski Park, but it gives you an idea of, these were white oak and locus that the city provided and they're staked into the ground on wood fiber. So this is something we're looking at for our agility area. And here's a view again. So here are the stumps that are vertical and the stump is half the height is exposed and half is just directly buried in the ground. And so we would mimic the same installation and have it be both in grass and on wood chips. And again, this just shows you the difference of material. In terms of the playground area, we like a lot of what this concept has, not necessarily the colors. Here is the accessible spinner. So it is something that is pretty big. It is accurate. And so people can enter it from a few different areas that it does spin. We're asking for a new feature instead of this tractor, but this is a spinner, maybe another spinner or something small here. This is the two to five age group and this is the five to 12 age group structure. People have commented that they don't like the lime green color that can be changed, but we do like the different elements here. And this also persuaded us to eliminate the hillside slide because there's already a few slides here that will be a lot more exciting than what would be a four foot slide. And this just shows you a general layout. They took our drawing and then just put this in their program. So it gives you a sense for what, if they're seating and boulders around just in the pause of what it will look like generally. Here is another angle just showing some of the elements. This is looking from the north to the south. So here is the east-west walkway in the background. We've decided to eliminate these music structures or elements just because of some concern for noise. And so you've asked for other types of mechanical or movable items that can go here. What's the reason why I have some of these elements on the perimeter is we can have overlap of safety zones. So if the fall zone for the slide is out here, if you have things that don't require too much of a fall zone, you can overlap the play areas. And so we're asking for something here as well, but I don't know if they have like a giant hourglass that can be tipped over and see the sand go down or you've had a clock where they could turn the hands, something that could be added there. And this is just a view looking from the walkway. So this is actually a pretty big structure for the older kids. There's some climbing here with slides. And then there's a pretty high net actually. It's a cable thing that kids can climb over to get to this taller structure that has slides. Something else that climbs. Here's the spinner and here's the two to five-year age group that has a roof shelter, which could be a different type of roof material. A rock climber and some steps up in platforms and bars. We've asked about different roof material if they have like a perforated metal, which I think they have that could mimic what's on the spinner. So some designs have taller posts here with a perforated roof just for some shade. This will be slightly shaded from the existing trees, but I think for during the central time of the day, it will be in direct sun. It's hard to get shade in the playground unless you're adding it or you wait for trees to mature. I think that's it right now. Lindsay, do you have a question or comment? Oh, you have to unmute yourself. Hi, this looks great. I just had one primary concern and that is the way it's shown currently. It looks like the sidewalks kind of come off of this big play area instead of having, like I wonder if you could just have a perimeter sidewalk that allows for people to go along the pathway without having to be inside of that play zone. Right, so we can, okay, yeah, that's a good question. So we've gone back and forth about this. The idea is we could do a different rubberized surface material that would have an edging though, just continue along the perimeter to know a walkway. So the reason why we've done this is our playground area, this play area is actually pretty small. And so to get some of the equipment we need, we actually need the rubberized surface to go to these edges for the fall safe zone. So in one of the plans, for instance, if you just imagined a five foot offset here to wrap around this whole thing, we can do that and have that be a color, a different rubber color. So then they know that it's the walkway. But what we're trying to do is there's an existing tree here, here, and here, and we're really trying to minimize, pushing out pavement to have another sidewalk. So I don't know if just having a different color rubberized surface, they pour it so that it would become a continuous surface. They would just pour one and the other.  Sure. Also just kind of, it gives, I think, an indication that there's this path that's continuous and loops around and it might pull people toward that path beyond. Right, that's a good point. I also wonder. Oh, sorry. Yeah, I mean, just continue, continue. I also wonder if, I like the stump idea and I wonder if that line that you're showing, it's not only a line, but the stump that kind of, it's down below that connects the keystone to the play area. Yeah, I'm wondering, like I like the idea that maybe there's this kind of secondary loop that allows people to move from the play area to the keystone framing that area between those two trees. So I'm wondering kind of other than this, the stumps, is there, is this just grass or is there kind of like another almost like a secondary path that people could take? You know, the, not, you know, it was, you know, as an accessible path, it would be this. Right. The idea would be that there's, you know, someone can, you know, that is that someone could, this is that grade, so this would be wood fiber, someone can, you know, could walk in this wood, this is all wood fiber area. Maybe we bring the stumps out here and create more of an entry and then this could be in all a wood fiber area. Yeah, I think that would be nice. And then my last comment is that I, I question taking the sandbox out and putting in just another hard surface because I think you have that in a few locations with the patio and the amphitheater. So this right here is actually a loose piece stone area. So it's something that, you know, be, I don't know whether it, I don't know if it's six inches or whatever it is, a piece stone could be eight, but it'll just actually be loose piece stone that kids can play with. It won't be a kingdom or anything. Okay. Yeah, I don't know what's preferred sand or piece stone, but I like the idea that there's something soft there that can be played with. Yeah, the sandbox, we had a lot of comments about the sanitation of it and the maintenance of it. You know, would it be covered? How is it disinfected? But we, you know, we, I think we like the idea of piece stone just, you know, it is small and it's packed out as loose kids can still play with it. Okay, thank you. Michael? Thanks. One, one question and one comment. The question is about the wood fiber bases. Is that different from wood chips? And if so, how? The, it is, you know, they're supposed to wood fiber supposed to be need a certain specification in terms of size and compaction. And so that, you know, wood chips, you can just have, you know, like Wagner wood chip up a tree and they could be, you can have some pretty big wood pieces of wood in there and rough bark and wood fiber is supposed to be a finer material. You know, it has to be raked out. So, you know, it can move. And so over time you have to replenish it and, you know, there may be some weekly raking to keep it in place, but the difference really is the texture and the, you know, the fineness of the material. Thank you for the information. A comment about the sign at the entryway. The CPAC, Community Preservation Act Committee has been concerned with the fact that many of the things that it supports do not get any recognition. And it would be important to CPAC if the fact that this park was in part provided by Community Preservation Act funds were stated on some signs at some point somewhere. So I would hope that that could be put on this welcome entry sign. I don't know that, yeah, no, great. That would be on there. And then the park grant that's funding this also requires, you know, some language that says that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts park grant program has helped fund this playground. And then their logo is like a four inch round circle with some stuff on, I guess I could pull it up, but they don't need a big language, but yeah, we've talked about having the CPAC. The fact doesn't have a good language either and it doesn't have a logo. So just a line saying and funding from Community Preservation Activity. I don't think so. Yeah, that's a great idea to recognize that. Thank you. Erica? This is great. Thank you for walking us through it. I'm wondering if you could provide a little clarification for me on two points. And one is, what's the ground surface between the amphitheater area and the mound area? It's shown in white on your drawing. And I think I see some, the tree stumps continuing. And so the idea would be this could be a planting area. It's okay. I didn't color it in, but this is a pollinator garden and it could just be mimicked here too in terms of perennials or things that can be planted or be a seasonal plantings. So just an observation, sort of a kid behavior observation is that on the one hand, these kind of discrete pockets of space can be really nice for kind of containment, but the inclination probably will be to run through them. And so perhaps like providing a connected, grassy zone might be worth considering. And then my other question was, you mentioned some picnic tables that are perhaps, I'm not sure because we didn't see them different than the tables in the granite circle to the west. Where would the picnic tables be? And are they part of the same family of furniture or is it something different? Yeah, so you had to ask that question. And the, I can do a new share. Where am I now? The, we haven't, I think the thought would be the picnic table would be somewhere in this location. And I think we haven't determined that yet. The idea is that they would, if there is a preferred location, but the idea would be that they would just be staked into the ground, so they could be moved. I don't want to say that they're seasonal. They're gonna, there'll be a one piece. So I just ran down your grass zone idea first. I like that. The, for this pollinator garden, there is a six inch curve right along here, at least on one edge. And I guess we could, you know, we're at least trying to discourage kids from running from here straight around into this, but you know, at least that there's a little bit of a curve. But I get it, they're gonna have some fun with this. And let's look at, so for the table, we're looking at, do more as the company that the vendor works with. And people can see the- You can see it. Yeah, so the idea would be that they make this with a flat seat. And so it would be an eight foot table, all metal with a flat seat, sort of mimic the top. And it's all one piece, which was preferred just for kind of safety and security. So I, you know, if this is what it would look like, that'd be the same thing, it'd be in the same colors. We looked at the Sudan or the green, or the Carlsbad, you know, but if you have any recommendations on placement, we haven't, you know, I don't think we've decided on that yet. So, you know, I can go back. So, you know, it's interesting so that this one vendor, if we're on do more, they, if we look at the tables, they have a lot of options, but a lot of them are plastic or they're separate pieces. And so for picnic tables, you know, we were joking around, but explain with like the traditional kind of picnic table, but these are the options that everyone can see that they offer. Or could they just be put out in the ground? I mean, and not necessarily within the confines of, or maybe that's what you're thinking, not necessarily within the confines of the playground, but just there, someplace else in Kendrick Park, or close to the property ground. It's on the edges of the playground. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's somewhere in this area. Yeah, there were some comments at the planning board that, you know, although this is provide some seating, it's not a lot. And so we're thinking that having some, you know, at least, you know, all the works that said that, you know, we could do two picnic tables, maybe one goes here, maybe here, you could see the use and demand. And it could also be something that in the future, if we gauge that there's more interest, we could add them. Right. I love the idea of all the plantings, but I'm just so, I have this tentative feeling that Amherst doesn't, I don't think we have a good track record of maintaining what limited plantings we have. And if it weren't for the bid in the garden club, we probably wouldn't have anything. And my worst fear is that all these shrubs and flowers will be put in, and then they will just get shabby and run over and broken and look worse than having nothing. And I don't know whether there's some kind of a commitment from public works that they're really gonna come in every week and say things are watered and pruned and cause kids are gonna be playing and they're gonna be running through things, they're gonna probably have a dog or two. And before you know it, it won't be what you might have visualized. And I don't know what you're thinking is on that. That's just a thought I have. Yeah, I mean, we're looking at, you know, somewhat hearty plants in terms of, you know, the need for watering or maintenance, but I do agree that they can get beat up with the use on kids. Someone has suggested kind of like a shawrny sharp shrub, like a Hawthorn with, you know, with crickers and things, but that's not something we're able to do. They only go in there once. They're gonna go there without really the turkeys. But yeah, I think, you know, the idea would be, hopefully, once they're established, they'll need less maintenance, but you do bring up a good point. The planning board asks, what's the maintenance cost of this? And we haven't analyzed that. I mean, it's looking like it is. It's hard for me to imagine somebody from Public Works is gonna be up there paying too much attention to that or any attention at all. And maybe somebody will adopt it as a project. Yeah, or I think, you know, the planning board asks, what is the cost of this? And we don't have that exactly, but I do think that as Amherst improves its parks, you know, there is gonna need to be more money put in the capital and operating for this. So be this year. Yeah, I mean, even, you know, Groff Park, we've said that, you know, we're putting in a really big addition at Groff Park, and we've done some work at Mo River that all that needs maintenance. And so it's something that the community, you know, I think is realizing, but you know, we, I like to think that probably in the 70s and 80s, Amherst had really great, all new parks. And then we haven't done much since then. And so as we start to revitalize them, it will take a little bit of extra maintenance, you know, for the foreseeable future. But yeah, I'm hopeful that it'll be maintained. And like I said, public works, and I don't know the tree word is coming up with a plant list for kind of hardy and durable plants. It looks like Christine, Chris has a question or comment, Chris? Oh, I just wanted to say just what Nate said, we have had two members of the DPW staff, Paul Dethier, who's actually listening right now, and also Alan Snow, the tree warden. So Paul is a, let's keep architect, and Alan is a registered tree warden. And they have been working on this design with us. So I'm hoping that they will, you know, bring the care that they have brought to the design to whatever maintenance is necessary. And Alan is really the person who is in charge of maintaining parks. I think he's got a, as they say, he's got skin in the game. So maybe he'll really work hard to maintain this park. Can I just say, wait for one second here, Maury. Oh yeah, sure, yep. Sorry, I think it's great. And I vote yes as it stands. I think you're coming along. Unfortunately, I only planned on this for an hour. I'm in Connecticut. I'm associated with taking care of my grandson. So I need to leave the meeting now. Oh, just bring your grandson into the meeting. Well, I thought about it, but I don't know. He's only 15 months. Well, Jen, if you have any comments that you come to mind that you wished you had said, feel free to email me and I can forward that on to Nate and Chris. Okay, I think it's coming along really well. I like all the changes you've made since the last time we saw it. It's great. It's gonna be wonderful. So thanks. Thanks. Sorry. Thank you. Okay. So are you thinking this is a park that's going to attract people from all over town? Or do you anticipate that it might be a park that's going to attract more local people who might walk to it as opposed to trying to drive and find a place to park? With parking being somewhat limited there. Yeah, there's some permit parking on North Pleasant Street. Right. And then there's the Prey Street lot. And so, I'd like to say it'd be both. I think it's a great neighborhood and local park and it can also be used by visitors and people from all over town. It's not the biggest playground my thought would be, as someone who come into town, I'd probably use it just as much. If I was a family, I'd make a trip here and then maybe I'd check out community field another time or drop park. So I think I'll draw a different types of users. Sure. You know, the parking's been asked and so there is consideration in the future for what's happening on North Pleasant Street. So the design is pulled away a little bit from the curb line here. So if there ever needs to be a little bit widening of the road, that can be accommodated if, say for instance, if both sides of the road are made to be parallel parking. It's not part of it now but we're kind of anticipating some possible changes. I would just add that I think this could be a nice attraction for young families, either that live in Amherst or in the valley that come here and then maybe they get lunch or dinner or they just walk around town. But it's just another activity for the family to enjoy. Yeah. And imagine if there's outdoor dining and this. Yeah. It could be quite nice. Somebody, when you gave this present, I know you've given this presentation so many times but there was, I thought, a good suggestion with somebody who had seen signage from San Francisco that had a sign up. You have to be accompanied by a child in order to come into the park, which means, you know, we know there are a lot of people who really are looking for a place to hang out all day because there's no place to go and are you considering that aspect of this whole thing, the picnic benches and the tables being used by people who aren't bringing in children? Yeah, we talked about that point. I thought it was an interesting one, but I think the design team felt that it's somewhat of an exclusionary policy. So, you know, as a downtown park, there may be people who just want to walk around here or use it as an accessible loop and not necessarily bring children. So, you know, I guess some of it would be, you know, we can reassess how it's used after it's constructed. So if we find that it's not, you know, there's unintended consequences because of a lack of rules of regulations we could reconsider, but for now we're not going to have that type of policy. You know, no park in Amherst has that. You know, we don't have- Of course this is downtown. I know, but this is downtown. And this, you know, this is a little different than Gough Park. Well, that's up to you. It's obviously your decision. Right, I mean, my thought would be though, you know, to me, if this whole thing's the playground, I would hate to say that someone, you know, say a couple without kids wants to walk through here and maybe sit on this bench for a minute and have a snack. I mean, that just seems like- Right, yeah. Not, you know, there is, we can, you know, if people are loitering, that's one thing. If they are just enjoying it, that's- Yeah, right. Okay, is there any other comments or are you looking for a motion or you're just, you just sort of want to get us up to date? What's- I know, yeah, thanks for asking. Yeah, we're going back to the planning board on May 20th. And so, you know, if the designer review board, you know, if you feel like you'd like to make the motion, that'd be great. Or, you know, I'd run down your comments and we'll bring those to the planning board. Do people have a motion or just- Chris, do you want to answer? Do you have something to add? I just wanted to say that this may be the last time we're going to the planning board. We are under some time constraints. We thought initially that our deadline was June 1st to get these drawings to the state. The state is giving us probably till the end of June to get the drawings to the state. But I don't think we're going to be going back to the planning board again, unless the planning board wants us to come back there. So this, I guess what I'm saying is this may be your last opportunity to vote in favor or make a recommendation or whatever, because the planning board might vote to accept this on Wednesday. On the other hand, they might not, but I'm just putting that out. So would you want, I'm sorry, somebody. Oh, I was just going to say, I mean, we've been, Nate, Chris and myself, we've been jotting down all the recommendations and comments that you said tonight and then from the last meeting on April 22nd. Well, I'm happy just having, if the group just agrees with the consensus that we approve it, that we like what we see and that we would encourage them to move on. I don't know that you need a federal, Erica and Lindsay, do you want, and Michael, do you want to make a motion or shall we just give a general consensus that we are okay? I'm happy to make a motion that we approve the design and with recommendations. Okay, good. All right, a second. I second that. Okay, any other comments for the discussion? If not, all in favor. Wait, I think we need to guess what Erica's recommendations are. Oh. I was referring to the ones that we had made collectively. Yeah. Oh, I thought we had been noting. Yeah, I have been noting. We go through that through those. Yeah, we have the previous meeting on April 22nd in front of me and I also have been once or tonight. Yeah. I think you just go with, well, you want to go through them or do you want to base it on our notes? How about you, Erica, are you okay with just the notes? I'm fine with the notes. Okay. Michael, do you need to hear the recommendations or are you? It's fine. Go ahead. All right, I don't think there were too many, but okay, all in favor then let's vote. All in favor. Aye. Aye. No, all right, that's good. Great. Yay. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Nate and Chris for attending and for talking about the memo that was sent by yourself and Paul and for explaining the updates for Kendrick Park. I have a general question before we adjourn. I'm not, I've only used the OneDrive only a few times and every time I send a link to people, I always wonder, ooh, I hope they can open it. Are people able to open the link that I've been sending? I didn't get to open the latest one and I'll have to work on that, but the other ones, I mean, obviously. So I'll talk. Okay, and do you need a password or anything? Is it just click on it and it brings you right there? Okay, that's great. I just wasn't exactly sure. I sent you an email saying I couldn't open it, but I didn't try that hard because I'd seen so many of these other ones. So okay, I'll keep working on it. Sometimes you have to download the material before you can really read it. That's what I've discovered. If you just open it, sometimes it has strange lines on it and you can't really see it very well, but if you download it and then look at it, it's easier to see it. That's good to know. I've only used it just a couple of times. So I'm always hoping for the best. All right, well, in the future, if anyone's obviously not able to open one of those links, obviously email me, you know. All right, all right. Well, thanks again for meeting. Does anyone have any other comments or questions before we adjourn? I just have one comment. I see that sort of convenience store in Triangle Street closed and I saw a sign that is it the Amherst Market that's coming in there? And if that's so, do they have to come before the design review board like the convenience store did? Or... Yeah, if it's within the DRB, if they're proposing a signage and... Yeah, okay. Anything exterior. All right, I just saw the sign and on the window the other day. So, yeah, so I just... I would just add that it depends on what comes out of this discussion about temporary zoning because that could be one of the businesses that's covered by this temporary zoning amendment. Okay, all right. Well, good luck with that. All right, anything else? Okay, are we... Maureen, do we have anything else? No, I'm good. All right. So we have a motion to adjourn. Somebody move. The motion to... Don't move. Okay. Second. Yes. All in favor to adjourn. Okay, everybody say aye. Wave your hands. Aye. All right. You don't have anything else coming up then, do you, Maureen? Not at the moment, no. All right. Yeah, but I will let you know. Okay, thanks a lot. All right, take care, everyone. Thank you very much, everyone. Bye. Bye. Bye.