here's a good rule of thumb when it comes to your health natural is better in other words if you can get your body to naturally be healthier that's the best option right what's the second best option well if you have to use products to help yourself out use those that help encourage natural processes those that try to mimic natural processes synthetic tends to be worse than natural so if you follow those two strategies you're probably going to be better off I wanted to do that because well there's a couple reasons why one natural is always better right so naturally good hormone levels are better than hormones that have to be you know taken exogenously obviously if you're left with no other option then what you want to do is you want to mimic natural levels as best as you can that's the second best option diet same thing and things you put on your skin same thing you know if you put things on your skin that don't work with your skin's natural way of being healthy then you're probably worse off than working with things that encourage or work with your skin's natural ways of being healthy usually that's a great rule of thumb and I think if people kind of follow this as their guideline they'd be much better off it just it just tends to be true most of the time so I wanted to ask you that so Caldera just came out with a new beer product and I was reading the label on it and I saw seed oils and there's all this stuff going around right now with seed oils just being so bad for you is there a difference in me digesting it versus putting it on my skin okay yeah there is so the skin is the largest organ of the body yeah yes but so a lot of companies will use like synthetic products compounds to mimic what is natural natural products those derived off of plants and oils are typically gonna be better of course the formulation matters but typically better because they're gonna more mimic the oils in your skin that you naturally produce balance out your pH they're not gonna wipe out or severely disrupt your skin's microbiome or what's considered a healthy microbiome whereas the synthetic products generally tend to do that of course there's always you know you want to look at the product itself but the controversy around seed oils has to do with consuming them not putting them on your skin now yes putting things on your skin it definitely can affect your insides but like seed oils or natural oils or plants they're not gonna have the estrogenic effects like that Xenoestrogens may have at the very least you know we've co-evolved with things that occur in nature so we're more likely to understand what they will do and what they won't do versus let's say a new chemical that oh my god this is so good for you we don't have thousands of years of co-evolution with those things that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad but we just don't know and when you don't know you I think going on the side of natural tends to point us in about so I think that's what a lot of people think when they ingest some of these seed oils right so I'm Doug's got pulled up the Caldera lab website and like you look at the you know apricot oil the gooseberry seed oil red raspberry you have all these things that are like natural yes and that you that are mixed up to make this blend that feels amazing on my beard it makes it look shiny right but then you have this stuff going around of like the different types of seed oils that people are cooking with and ingesting totally how is that okay so yeah how is that different so those are those are different seeds by the way that they're using in those seed oils those industrial seed oils are made from things that are not in the caldera be you know beard oil for example you know some of the stuff you mentioned you could literally take that take one of those seeds squeeze it off the plant yeah you're not like going through this industrial process to extract processing process you have to deodorize it and use other chemicals to strip it so that it doesn't smell bad so do you think that that's not sorry interrupt you but I want to make a point if that's true do you think that is most likely whether whether we know for sure or not that these seed oils are very harmful right because it that the verdict isn't completely out I feel like there's a camp of people that like think it's the worst thing ever than there's the other camp that like the Lane Norton's who are like well the what the studies say it's not clear yet so do you think what we are seeing is kind of like what we learned about GMO stuff it's more about what they're spraying or the process yeah of it than it is actually the seed oils itself so it's like the seed oils are chemical residue from the treatment just just just the whole process like okay so look at it this way and again this isn't conclusive but it is generally a good direction right because we don't have data to conclusively show there's some that shows us bad show that shows it's okay we don't have conclusive data so we have to go off of okay well what's a good estimate what's a good guess and a good guess and estimate is not well data we don't have the data yet therefore it's okay that's not to me that's not a good direction because we didn't have data on a lot of things that we now know are bad for us so what's a good what's a good strategy good strategy is is this something that humans could have consumed in those quantities without the industrial processing processes the answer is no there's no way you would consume grapeseed oil or rapeseed oil as they call it in those in the the the amounts that we can consume them without these crazy industrial processes it just doesn't it just there's it's impossible so it's a good kind of rule of thumb to be like okay well we don't know so I'm gonna go with like olive oil because you get squeezing all of I can go with avocado oil because it's right there I don't have to go through these super advanced process to pull this oil out and you know we never consume this it's just a good rule of thumb now will it get proven one way or the other over time I believe so but so far what seems to be true for the most part is the further away we move from the natural how we evolved the more problems we encounter seems like scientists I mean I get it like you're trying to just completely go by data and all these studies that are gonna kind of give you one direction or the other but it usually takes five to ten years to reveal that so in that in the meantime like you're telling the consumer that yeah well based on what we have right now everything is fine and you know in that regard as a consumer I don't know that I want to follow that kind of a strategy it doesn't seem like a lot of the cases that have been out there for you know whatever it's artificial sugar whether it's you know some of these other controversial type of foods that you're ingesting like I'm I'm not gonna take that chance as a consumer going forward on my own health it's like why it's why on things where you there's other alternatives there's a healthy natural or turn alternative we know that to be the case already so it's like it's like I'm taking a chance in this direction based off of whatever data you're presenting look even things that seem to be innocuous like oh we can live in temperature controlled rooms and houses and we have electric lights like that's amazing we should do that right that moved us away from how we evolve now it's got its own benefits I'd rather live in a temperature controlled house with electric lights and live in a cave okay but are there side effects that we couldn't possibly or didn't even you know predict yeah like our body's ability to adjust the temperature well it seems like that's a muscle if you don't strengthen it you actually weaken the body this is why hot cold contrast therapies got health benefits what about electric lights our sleep is definitely disrupted because our brains evolved with the sun rising and then the sun setting and so you're because of that your circadian rhythm is into attuned to that environment we moved into an artificial environment our primitive bodies because our bodies are essentially the same as they were 100,000 years ago no difference or even longer it we have some side effects so what about food well it's a good thing that we have food accessible to us all the time it's a good thing that we've created foods that have a long shelf life right are there side effects of that yeah obesity you know obesity becoming a big one hyper processed food that that becomes another problem so it's just a good rule of thumb why do you think it's so difficult for people to frame that like that because it becomes so the scientific dogmatic and camps it's either you you believe it or you don't believe it versus like well why can't you just have more of approach of like for example and by the way I don't like I don't look at those things that and demonize it like I I've openly talked about drinking diet coke but I'm also mindful of like how unnatural it is and that it's probably not ideal totally I do it all the time and so I'm mine so I'm just not like willy nearly drinking 10 of them a day because I like them that much it's an occasional treat for you so you perceive it right and I and I don't look at it like oh because it's diet in zero calories this is healthy for me I look at it's like this is pretty far from natural so if I really like this I should probably minimize the amount I do it's probably not ideal for me whether that's been proven to be true or not I don't understand why that is such a big deal to like frame it just it's just a really good rule of thumb you always got to weigh things out I brought up like hormone replacement right so if you're a man with really low testosterone can't get it up naturally it's not working then you go on hormone replacement it's better than being low testosterone but is it better than having naturally good levels of testosterone no because it doesn't perfectly mimic the natural way your body produces testosterone which are like spurts throughout the day if you take testosterone you typically will do like an injection it gets a high peak after day one and it kind of slowly goes down over time and stays relatively high the body doesn't actually produce testosterone that way so is it better if you compared people on testosterone therapy to people who are healthy with good healthy levels of testosterone and all things being controlled I guarantee you the natural testosterone is going to outperform it in terms of longevity but if you compare low testosterone to you know testosterone that is artificially in a better place with exogenous then you're going to see it's better so if your options are to starve or not get adequate nutrients or eat things with some seed oils then yeah you got a better option but if your option is seed oils versus olive oil or butter or avocado oil then it's it's probably it's probably better because those seed oils require crazy amounts of processing with advanced techniques that didn't exist up until I don't know what 50 years ago 60 years ago your minimal requirements for surviving is covered you know now we got to look at quality yeah it's it's not that crazy of a thought to go through this like logic today's giveaway is the RGB bundle here's how you can win that leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications if you win we'll let you know in the comments section now we're also running a sale this month on some workout programs maps bands is half off and the hardgainer bundle is half off the both 50% off if you're interested in either one or both of them just click on the link at the top of the description below all right back to the show you know I completely shifted the way I looked at supplements like midway through my career too because of the point you're making right now like I remember when I was like the kid who was trying every like you know testosterone booster you know explode like all these performant supplements to build more muscle mass stuff to build more muscle yet I'm super deficient in vitamin D my B vitamins are off for like I'm not getting enough iron or it's like you're far better off looking at where you're potentially deficient in nutrients that are important to your body to run optimally and balancing that out then you are taking some perform the latest cutting performance supplement that's out there and the irony of that and the reason why I know it's not pushed very hard is because it's cheap yeah it's not very expensive to go pick some vitamin D up you don't say there's some B vitamins you're you're there's more money to sell you on the newest no explode creatine branch channel me know mass builder there's also the there's science which science the scientific method is objective it's a wonderful process one of the greatest discoveries of of humanity allows us to to innovate and test things objectively like it's amazing but then there's also like the culture of the scientific community or people in science people of course imperfect or like scientism right like a legend around it where it's like well if the data doesn't show that it's bad then it's not bad or show me the data show me the data you know type of deal it's like okay we're not always going to have data we but we can use logic and this goes in both directions like I remember talking about the supplement ashwagandha ashwagandha had been used for hundreds of thousands of years for libido vitality stress relief okay but there was no data to support it so you bring up ashwagandha and the science community like well there's no data doesn't do anything well it's been used for thousands of years for this thing maybe we should listen to people who've been using it for thousands of years there's probably some value now we have data showing it's got it provides all those benefits so now they're on board you brought up caldera if you look at here's why I think caldera is so damn effective like one bottle of their their serum okay works exceptionally well on Justin and on me you couldn't have to you couldn't have two different skin types yeah he's dry his skin is dry mine is oily I obviously darker complex it he's much lighter complex it our skin is very different with synthetic products you would have a product for dry skin one for oily skin you'd have all these processes all these chemicals to do that whatever caldera it's the same formula what is caldera do it uses natural compounds that more closely match and mimic your skin's natural way of being healthy it works with your skin so someone with dry skin it works and with oily skin it works as well I think that's a now it's a rule of thumb but it's not like a hard set rule yes there's natural things that are bad for you and things that are synthetic that are better for you but generally speaking when you have this question in mind should I put this on my skin you look at the ingredients like examples are out there like that I mean I would love to hear that because they're derived from like they always science always looks to natural whether it's from animals or plants or you know something in nature that they can mimic and then they recreate it in a lab and create the synthetic version like I don't understand that argument in terms of like the synthetic being better in terms of like how they took out maybe some of the toxic I mean we always think more is better like they concentrate is what they do you know but then there's a delivery system that they're not accounting for yeah I mean that's why I love the now I forget when I first read I know I've shared it on here a bunch of times but a lot of times I said that with the sugar analogy with the you know band of the sugar cane yeah you know fiber you gotta like sugar actually would not be that bad to consume if you ate it in its natural form because you know how hard it would be to get the amount I remember reading the amount of sugar that's in one coke is like equivalent to six or eight feet of sugar cane you know the amount of effort and work you would have to do to grind that up by hand or chew that down to get to that much sugar yeah like you it would literally you burn off the calories that you would consume getting it like that's how safe and okay would be to consume as much sugar as you want in its natural state but we've found a way to process it down and refine it and concentrate it and now it's you know it's funny about this this is how arrogant humans are we are pretty good about this with animals when you look at yeah people that care for animals in zoos even or when they're in captivity or even our own pets everything's delicately balanced and managed right oh you know what is their natural habitat right let's mimic this as best possible what do they eat let's really if we can do it if we can bring it as close to natural as possible that's best and everybody knows that right we don't look at ourselves as animals no you know why because we the ship is sail for us we're so far totally yeah we don't consider that we're animals like yeah so we don't want to look back ready for space we don't want to look back at that and say that because when you really think about that almost everything we do is obnoxious and beyond what of course our natural environment like walk through your house and literally think about everything that you use or have in there like there's nothing there's there's little I don't like it being that hot dude there's little there's little signs and hints of it though right like like why do we put like plants inside our house I know right why do we when we put plants a little place trying to bring it back in why do we why do we like things that make the sound of water but without bugs you know what I mean I like to hear water I don't want to be actually on a waterfall pay $5,000 for my waterfall they're right it's so fun or like what people like imagine like let imagine a dog owner right now right and they're and they keep their dog like in a confined space for seven hours and then they come home to let the dog out and they don't let the dog go outside and the dog starts acting weird they don't think to themselves like better put my dog on some medicine because my dog's got 80d he's chewing up all my shit weird people do but yeah yeah people be like oh it's because you your dog's locked these exercises to be outside and then we do our safety to our kids like why is timmy acting up in class yeah he must be something wrong with him in front of a screen for four hours when he's home and then I put him in a school where they sit him in a desk for six hours let's put some let's put him on some medication so we can yeah you can operate this so I was talking with my we're funny like that huh I was talking with my daughter about this because uh she's got a she's there's a kid is a friend that she has who's uh getting tested for 80d you know you guys know this by the way 80d and 80hg now it's all 80d that means it's all 80d yeah I learned this by the way because my wife is very well versed in 80d she was like rattling off all the current information and I looked at her and I realized like did you learn about this because of me yeah are you studying me she's like yes it helps me I'm like oh really I'm like can you explain some of the ways you know that this is and so she would talk with my daughter she's like well sometimes your dad can seem like he's not paying attention or I'm like does he care about me he's even listening to me she's like but then when I realized how his brain works I realized like no I'm not taking it personal I'm like okay well I guess that's good and bad anyway so she's all putting reminder notes and scientific studies anyway so uh we were talking with her about it because she has a friend who's going through this testing and I'm like and we were trying to explain to her how unnatural the school setting is I'm like we're taking children who of the entire age range right when as from birth till you know death right the age range that you probably are gonna move or want to move the most is the ages that we make your ass sit down and look at someone talking and listen to them all day long and then we'll let you out for a little bit and come back inside do the same thing I'm like it's so it's also so unnatural to sit only with kids your own age so here's something that I notice when my two and a half year old plays with other two and a half year olds they struggle they'll fight for the same toy with a five or six year old watch how well he does put him with a five or six year old or put him with a little someone he was in younger than him they perfectly work together so like it's so environment so unnatural so I told my daughter I said a lot of kids are going to struggle on that it's like in fact it's surprising some kids are okay in that environment and then our answer is to put them on like these crazy drugs that like make them act the way that they're supposed to well I remember I never thought about it until I had max the thought of what like what we do with daycare like how crazy is that like it never dawned on me that's that's that's that's a natural thing we do in our society it's very well accepted that this is the norm your kid gets to about a year two years old you have to go to work you guys go back and so you drop them off at this daycare where they love your kid and they take care of it imagine you just came into this world and you've you figured out who mom and dad barely have figured out who mom and dad are this is your safe place and then they just like hand you away just some strangers and think of like as a kid remember like here's another way I thought about too is like that you don't realize is like your time time is so different the younger you are of course like we remember when you were like you know eight or nine years old and like the summer was like so short and like school year was so like you it's so that your time you're you're that they've proven that you perceive time much faster as you age way yeah it's so different I told you in a year from now you'd be like oh my god it's only a year from now right tell that to a 10 year old they're like oh that's like a lifetime yeah so imagine a kid who gets dropped off for six hours that's like a and they're only a year old that's like a huge fraction of their their their time and so they're going to even perceive that differently than you are with a strike man imagine like how many kids and then heaven forbid they have a traumatic experience where maybe they have diarrhea or the or maybe the lady's not nice or they're not paying attention or another kid is like pushing them down like oh my god normal is not natural that's we confused it to really oh it's normal everybody does it okay but that doesn't necessarily mean it's good or it's natural no there's data and listen parents listening right now I get this like I do lots of there's lots of things that I do that are not ideal because I have to this is just you know daycare and stuff like that's one of them school you know some you know sending your kid to traditional school that's another one it's just the way it is we're never going to be perfect okay so I totally understand there's lots of data to show that taking your kid to daycare when the little is traumatizing well because it teaches them that they have to break this bond they have to oh I got to deal with this other person a lot of them learn how to disassociate disconnect it's harder for them to build and if you think about what's natural we grew up with all the people we knew right out the gates around the gates we know these people yeah we know all these people we're with them all the sense birth and then what I'm with still tribal at the end of the day yeah I mean that's and that's your core unit tribe you know and then you spawn off from there like and you introduce you know they're the it's just like this immersion of like all strangers and then figure it out sinker swim yep it's pretty rough well and I think the point of bringing it up but is not to shame anyone any parent by any means at all it's the become a yeah it's become aware of it right is to be aware of it so that like that that gets factored into our decisions like a little more empathetic that way with with the kids yeah yeah you're more patient with the kid maybe you take a little bit more maybe you as a rushed parent have to be a little more mindful of when you just drop them off like the whole process of that going down and then they're picking them up or maybe when there is an option where you don't have to take them there you're like you know what i'm not going to because i'd rather i want to be with him as much as i possibly can so just get factored in you're just more aware of it doesn't mean that you you can't or you're you're not doing what the best you can to survive and because obviously that proceeds that right oh yeah if you had to go to work to give your kids food and give it you keep them alive that well guess what they're gonna have to have some adversity they're gonna go that's like not having a roof over your head needs met yeah not having a roof over your head is way worse the good yeah that's right yeah so but and that's that's what i but that's the point is to like not just because society has deemed it normal you know and okay doesn't necessarily mean that it really is normal it's not like we've just we've we've decided that that's going to be but the reality of it's actually very unnatural to do that so because you are doing something that it's unnatural and it's your child maybe being mindful that i think is our entire field the field that we work in what we do on the podcast is trot is really artificial ways of trying to keep people healthy in a crazy uh not natural world like yeah think about this for a second it's like a massive intervention think about how weird this is this is so strange if you really think about this in the context of like humanity right we schedule a time to go to a place to lift heavy things yeah and put them back down we've built nothing we've hunted nothing yeah it was not a necessity yet we have to do it to offset how terribly unhealthy normal modern life is we have to find the purpose within it to yes it doesn't give you that immediate gratification if i built this you know right away no no you have to develop a relationship around it and you have to create this framework around it so that you do it can you know on a consistent basis but how weird imagine if you took someone bizarre imagine a hundred thousand years ago right not even a hundred years ago yeah take someone from a hundred i've said that before take someone a hundred years ago and show them the gym environment they'd be like what the fuck are you doing there's plenty of work to do out in the field we're gonna shovel outside that's right you have a barn to build right now you have some animals to do my grandfather said that to me i never forget i never forget my grandfather true man he told me he's like what he goes you work out is like i just worked yeah that's all yeah what the hell are you talking about the out parts in fact my my Sicilian grandfather because of the work he did was so hard right they were really poor his context of how much weight something is was how many um how what is what are those called those boxes they're like pallets or whatever uh like how many pallets of lemons so oh that's six pallets of lemons that's right yeah so i'll be like he like i'll tell you my dad will be like oh you know salca deadlift x amount of pounds my grandfather would be like okay that's you know how many yeah how many pallets of lemons is that yeah that's great but dad's like it's probably like this man it's oh that's pretty good you know well when i when i worked uh when i worked at the ranch um it was funny because like really diet and exercise was like never conversation for their family because the whole life revolved around and farming is seven days a week you don't get a day off i don't get a vacation like get up what like especially in the morning yeah especially a dairy farm that's happening twice your nutrition is like what you do i mean a lot of it's eggs milk yes so you like you don't even there's no you eat whatever bacon you want whatever eggs you want whatever any drink however much milk you want like there's no and there's you're burning so much off and and you're doing laborious heavy things all day that there's not even a thought that goes into like weight management or or oh i shouldn't eat this or i should eat that it's like you feel like feel like a treat and have ice cream that day who cares not a big deal because don't worry tomorrow you got plenty of work actually in fact let's eat some more yeah it's like energy for it was actually really interesting too because i was actually right when i was getting interested in training and exercise and you know i was i was like i have these two worlds i live and i go back to the city with my friends and my normal life and then i have this you know dairy farm life and that their life versus everybody else's is so different you know i mean when you think about it that's how most people's life was just 150 years ago i love i think it's so i used to allow i still i still have such fond memories memories of my dad taking me to work with them and then every once a while him and his workers would have fun and they would just compete with each other right to see who is stronger more fit but it was always the context of like the shit that they did yeah like so it was always like who could lift the shovel those every construct yeah from the furthest part of the handle with the brick on it or you know shovel the most concrete in the shortest period how many bags of cement can you lift above your head or who could lift the long piece of wood by just putting it on their body just and it would create their own feets of strength none of it was like okay how much weight it was just reminding me so there used to be there used to be a this is a like a popular you know one of those things that just moves through our society even before social media there was a popular prank that you know i know what you do with the concrete bag yes and you would slide you slice it so here's what it was everybody did this yeah i see you guys do this this is before social media so what you do is if you have a new guy on the staff for the team yeah it's usually some young kid and they're maybe late teens early 20s who chose this he's like i'm going to go on this career they'd say okay how many how how many times can you lift a bag of cement above your head so you do is you put it on your head yeah then you get a guy behind you to kind of watch your technique or form yeah then a guy in front of you is going to count and what you do is you press it up and bring it down but you have to hold it up yeah so the guy get exactly knife he presses it up a guy with the trowel or exactly behind him cuts it in the middle yeah right that was like a thing right that was like a thing that everybody i think if you ever did construction i think everybody did that to the to the induction yeah isn't wild house stuff like that like the nintendo thing you know we talked about that before where it's like just everybody blew in it like how do we know yeah yeah there was no internet there was nobody sharing stuff on the internet back then it just spread yeah the atomic setup we talked about that yeah nobody ever don't look that up oh my god i was talking to uh i think it was like ethan and his friends about that like when we were they couldn't breathe it right and and thankfully like one or two of them knew but like the other ones didn't know about it it was awkward describing it you know it almost sounded like i was like ew that sounds like like gross and kind of rapey i yes i told my kids about it and and you know as i'm telling it you start you know because there are mirrors right wherever you're talking to them if i tell you guys we laugh ha ha i didn't realize how terrible it was yeah i was telling my kids and i remember my my son must have been in eighth grade maybe at the time and he looks at me goes that's sexual assault and i'm like oh yeah i guess i guess you're right yeah it was like it's terrible i think i wasn't one of them holding them down like what do we feel real bad what are we doing to each other i don't know dude it was a joke huh yeah you guys know the theory behind that right why why why guys do you shit like that to each other there's a theory right oh what is it oh you find out who's the weak one yeah so i was actually talking about you know i was talking my daughter about this because jessica told her about the prank she played on me with the texting and my daughter thought was so funny and i told her i said never start i was having a whole conversation with my daughter i said don't ever do a prank war with a boy because boys escalate at weight they don't know where to stop it'll be really bad so i was giving her example somebody gets hurt with a guy always just or something terrible like okay i screen i made you jump and then you took a poop on my desk like how does that a normal escalation like that's yeah and that's something that boys you skipped a few like a hell of a level it just gets crazy so and then so then there was like well why do you know boys do that you know why do guys do that the theory is is that guys are constantly this is the theory so who knows if it's true but they're testing each other right going to war yeah because you want to see who who will crack right when the shit hits the fan we're hunting or route war like you want to know yeah you know who's gonna crack and who's gonna be able to you know stand tall or whatever i think that's funny i know i think this is why it's like endearing like i don't know about you guys but when i was younger when i start to become more secure if i hung out with a group of guys and if they would do like they would play a prank on me or call me a nickname you could tell when they're doing a bullying over the joking but when they were doing it it was almost like i'll cool i'm accepted in the group now i have a terrible nickname oh yeah 100% who's the best yeah i mean yeah there's there's always the guy that has mean spirited behind you can tell the difference yeah and it's and then and then you know what you're dealing with too it's like okay this is the guy that's like just the the guy that wants to hurt people he always gets ostracized anyways right it's just like he's also the one that can't take it you know exactly the most insecure person talks about this right like you can't you can't rule the group and be like this tyrant because eventually everybody will come and overthrow you so it's like even if you're going to be you know making fun of or poking a pot prodding at each other like if you do it in a mean spirited way eventually you get overthrown i've been wrestling with this because this is kind of where Ethan's at because he's a teenager you know and he's like going through this with his friends and like they're you know the making fun of each other and this and that and i'm like in the kind of describing what we're just talking about whether or not who if it's you know mean spirited or if it's you know semi funny and you know and i've been kind of like stepping back myself i've been like dude i've been like pretty like yeah like like short fuse lately like just and i'm like what the fuck is going on with me like and even the last podcast you had i felt a little like yeah you had been a little i didn't and then i'm and i honestly and i when i was delivering that like story like i wasn't i wasn't chastising Ethan or anything about like having like a hurt ankle or anything and i'm not like you know shaming him for that but it felt like i was like a little hard you know on on him for that and and then to like i've just been snappy and with Courtney and i got into it you know last night and all something like dude like is it the lack of cheese i feel like he brought it back i am i am such like a an angry person he actually brought up a very interesting point though i believe that there there's something about cheese that actually interacts with like the opiate receptors but that's all that's all bro and he takes enough of it that it's like maybe a small withdrawal or something to maybe his but i mean i talked to sal bit too like i've been more lack of sleep like there it is right there you know that that's more likely but i mean honestly i'm still i'm still trying to case my lack of cheese i want to make that drugs on him you're like well maybe we should look at some other things i'm like yeah bro just take some of this i was like i like he's gonna put a he's gonna have cheese capsules yeah you gotta weed to create him bro he's trying to he's going to the doctor he's like listen doc i i stopped cheese but uh it's uh but i'm doing harrow now i'm angry now yeah so i probably should have it right right no it's just a little hero it's because you got crappy sleep for like weeks i know i know i have yeah it's crappy sleep will make you yeah and it shows up for me like and it's not obvious because like yeah lack of sleep usually you're like fatigue you know your brain fog like uh like it's it's visible signs of like i'm i don't have energy but for me it like i try to like bury it bury it and then it becomes like this irritation that just comes out in weird places and i have lived this for the last three years my my wife is a different person everybody is right but she's bear the brunt of the lack of sleep with the in the family because she's with the kids she's a completely different person with lack of sleep everyone she's aware of it i'm aware of it it's this is anybody right when i get a lack of sleep i also become very aware i'm short i'm more forgetful than normal more likely to feel depressed or negative it's terrible yeah it's fucking terrible and the problem is you can get away with kind of like a little bit of shitty sleep for a while so you're thinking you're okay i'll just add the caffeine yeah i'll do a little this i'll get that make myself like i can operate at work i guess i'm fine now man well it's like you just makes you an ass too it's like i don't have an excuse like it's a random thing it's like kind of like it got thrown in the mix and i wasn't ready for it and then it just was like oh it's it's gonna be temporary and it's just kind of like uh it's not gonna be like this for very much longer and it just keeps extending itself and uh the worst part for me is that like court need handles it like a champ and she's just very like level-headed yeah she's tired and like yawns and whatnot but like doesn't get like i get like i i just like it just it compiles slowly and then it gets worse and then i just i feel myself like just getting angry do you think that's because of her training you're just an asshole you think that i have thought that there's only one there's only one natural asshole in the room i maybe have just gets the least sleep out of all of us bro listen listen i'm gonna tell you that's probably 100 percent bro we always joke around moody whatever you have the worst sleep consistently always not always it gets better and worse but chronically i mean i can't i can't argue with you right now because i'm that's happening to me right now but it happens on it's own i feel like you gotta worry about more things it but it just happens on its own more often is what i mean like you don't have interruptions as much as you just can't sleep yeah yeah i mean i'm definitely i'm notorious for um i don't know i think doug would be up there with me too i think we i think one of our curses is thinking about business at night that is the worst and it's like so it's okay it's such a hard it's such a hard thing too because i also recognize uh the strength in it right like that's when i'm by myself laying in bed at 10 o'clock at night everybody else is asleep i'm deep in my thought and like numbers are flying through my head thinking six months out is with like everything is coming together for me and i like note like it's the most now you know it's not a business thing though right you know that it's a natural behavior and you will pick the things that you're most into or concerned about so for someone it could be their kids someone else it can be fear about what's happening in the world you obviously run the business you love it so that's where your thoughts are gonna go but it's there's something else that's deeper as to why you can't let go of the world and then you know kind of fall into yeah but my my point of that is i don't know if i would want to i don't know if i would want to sacrifice the the letting go because like my point is some of the best work gets done at that time so it's like oh okay let's say i you you're you're where you're looting is like you're some think deep rooted childhood thing that you uncover who let's just say that let's play that game let's go down that like got something that is related to that we uncover it i solve it now i have i sleep like a baby i'm out by nine o'clock and then i don't think about the business ever again and from nine to midnight when some of my best work is done at that time so it's like i don't know i don't know i don't know my sleep let's put this way my sleep made that bad to where i would sacrifice that right now maybe if it was chronically like crippling me and i was like not able to i wonder how used to it you are too i mean my my my sleep score and on my orange stuff like that other than this last it's been better uh oh i mean i've been good ever since the ever since the sleep eight that thing is i know it's not commercial for them but let me tell you that thing has been yeah i know game changer yeah well i think healthy you is typically better you but there is something to be said about uh the innovative state of mind uh innovative state of mind and inspiration often comes from uh stress or outside the norm or whatever so you'll see people who innovate more when they're fasted or when they're going through stressful situations so there is some truth to what you're saying i think oh i mean i if you were to open up my iphone notes which is where i keep most of my stuff right because me reaching over at middle of the night you know with my thing all dark and you know writing down my thought i mean it's crazy bro i mean i have thousands and thousands of notes in there from you know just being deep in thought and yes would it be happens at night for me so it's like real quick note just have to put it down yes forget it and i mean right a thorough note or do you just put like a word and then you're confusing it i've made that mistake from high or not yeah catch up what the fuck is catch up i've made the mistake of like i'll just put a couple things so i don't get in even deeper in thought and then that the fucks me because then i'm like fuck what does that mean i know i know that means something really important you know it's a note to yourself yes oh smart me was trying to tell me something no i don't mean i've absolutely done that before where i try not to like write a lot i'm just gonna write a couple words that will remind me and then the next morning comes and like through after dreams and all this stuff oh fuck i know this is important i just can't connect it hey speaking of like deep roots i said i didn't know the ketamine session so i took a couple weeks off because of the move and all that stuff so i did another session last night that is remarkable it's so remarkable so last night so yesterday i did another session and they're all they're all a little different right sometimes you have these big breakthroughs while you're doing it other times it's like afterwards or just changes your mindset i talked about earlier how it it dramatically improves neuroplasticity so allows you to kind of rewire patterns and stuff like that here's the weird thing that's happened to me a few times with it i will literally have a vivid memory that i forgot like and i'll have the memory and be like oh yeah now it's it's a it's typically a memory that i think i wanted to forget right so it's something like i don't want to think about so you kind of like block it off yeah but i had a memory of when i was i must have been three three three no way i i want and i it's not that i forgot it i remembered it i just didn't want to think about it i didn't think about it so i did i re pulling stuff up from three yeah i must have been because it was in the first house now okay how do you distinguish right now the it's a dead it's no that it's a well no i know you can figure out the age by the things your house this way that sure but how do you distinguish right now because one of the things my sister and i were talking about this before about like memories of my dad right because oh you want to explain the memory or well no like and one of the things that we go like man i just i have so few memories of dad and what i what i can't even distinguish now is if that was a memory or that's something that's a story someone else told me about a time or maybe a video you saw of that like yeah you know i'm saying yes so how do you distinguish when you're having these that like that's not like something that your parents told you so so this is a memory that i remembered for a long time when i was a kid i think i didn't want to think about it for a while but it's very like clear i remembered the experience is what i should say because i was in it i remember the experience of it but i know what you're talking about i've done that before i'll tell a story to someone and then i'll be like wait a minute yeah did i make up the story and then tell it so many times i think it's true you ever do that oh yeah i remember telling the story like uh when i was young with my brother and we like met this kid and um he he basically was like trying to be cool and show us his knife and so he like pulls his knife out and in my memory i was so scared that because i was unexpected he pulls it out like this that my memory told me that like he pulled his knife out and was like trying to hurt us with it and he was just trying to be cool and show us the knife and like my brother had to like tell me no this is how it actually went and like because i was younger than my brother two years and so it's just like stuff like that like happened to me all the time i had a story i made up or like i beat up these guys and i was like tough and i told my friends forever i told hey i told kids forever the story that it got to the point where i was like classic bro because you tell it for so long and then as an adult i look back and i'm like i made that shit up i was never even happened i was watching a kung fu movie i never happened i just said that to sound cool well i've had ones where i'm telling a story about a memory i had of a christmas when my dad was still alive of like oh what i got a desk and you know there was this bike and then he came in and then like i'll watch all of a sudden it's a video and you remember the video and i and i'm like oh god did i just at nine or did that like at 12 i watched that video and so then it actually happened but you don't remember the full thing that's right and and so is it was it actually am i actually remembering the that moment of being there or am i remembering watching the video that i saw you know what i'm saying yeah yeah and so there's a lot of stuff like that oh yeah there's a lot of studies on this there's lots of studies on this and they'll show how you can implant things into memories and stuff like that so but this was interesting because i remember so a couple things with the ketamine therapy is that i'll remember something occasionally and then i'll remember the experience and then i'll realize that i that i either downplayed the experience or i thought of the experiences being something else than it was so on and so forth so like there was like loosely there was an experience i had with my dad and i thought he was he was ashamed of me but the reality was he was frustrated because he didn't know how to connect with me and i clearly saw it now looking back that was interesting but this is another interesting one where i remember i was sitting in a high chair in our old house and my parents are just going at it and the reason why i remembered this uh in there was because i have this mode you guys know this i could no matter what's happening in my life i could turn off whatever's happening and just go into a different mode very easily very easy for me i learned how to do that as a kid because when you're little and your parents are you know whatever going fighting yelling each other my parents were really young when they had me that i learned how to like shut it off yeah interesting not react just like whatever shut it off and it was such a learned strategy that it became my second nature to the point where i now have to learn how to access feelings i can identify okay so this this brings up a really cool question then very somewhat of what i was talking about with my sleep when you go do that when you talk to the therapist afterwards and you're working through this how do you reconcile knowing that that's also been a superpower of yours and so it's like okay i recognize work it also disconnect me from my partner or my kids and how i need to get better at that and so with that but then i also recognize that you're also the guy who i've watched have drama or traumatic stuff going on and then walk in and crush an interview yeah like that superpower comes from that so how do you reconcile that yeah i don't think i'll lose that ability i think but i think i'm aware of it now and uh that it here's a difference there's a difference when it's operating on its own versus i know how to grab it and use it when i need it there's a big difference okay so this is this now goes back to like how i used to use cannabis right so i'm very aware of like when i'm in deep in thought and i'm laying in bed and like i want to be here because this is like i'm having really good thoughts around like the vision of the business and it's like oh this is gonna play out like this and like i don't want to leave that space then i have other times like last week was for me like this where it's like i've got this anxiety or angst or whatever excitement that got going on like and i can't get out of my head and i don't want to be in my head where this is where i would like take a couple hits so now imagine if you knew how numb it imagine if you knew if you had a better grasp of being able to go into something and come out of it and aware of you know how to do that like when it becomes your natural operating system it's hard to turn off like for me i can be in a stressful situation well obviously and i can't i i don't show it like literally yeah i'll be in a stressful and it doesn't show on my physical body i can now identify what's happening like oh my mouth is dry oh i feel this feeling i get this weird feeling in my feet and my legs oh i am under stress or overwhelmed or i am being bothered right now and it's not showing now why is it important for me to identify this because let's say you're my partner let's say my wife and i'm telling her hey this is really bothering me right now she hears my words she doesn't believe me she can't she can't feel it like you don't look like you're when i tell her i'm stressed out she's always she doesn't believe me like i know you're saying it but it doesn't seem like it like you're out you're totally seem totally normal i'm like no i am she's like i don't believe you so it makes it hard to connect it makes it hard to and also by the way if you if for me personally if i can't grab on to or feel or allow myself to feel negative things that means i'm also blunted on the good stuff you only go as deep like what do they say a tree will only grow as as tall as its roots or deep as wide or i don't know one of them something like that right so anyway it was just really interesting now what does that mean it's all fixed or what no but i'm aware so now i can kind of go in and kind of dress me we need to hug you before everybody no definitely not yeah i'm still not there good yeah so i mean you know interesting because i feel like you you're at the awareness phase which i believe i'm very aware of what i would just explain the question would be what does the the the practice look like and obviously i've used something to medicate that to get me out of that out of those states and really why of course i go back to i told you the cannabis point off had more to do with my son than anything else but then also the personal side of it is like well i also got in the habit of like i like it so much that it would became more regular than it needed to be versus using it when i'm like oh here's a moment where i here's what's cool right so as i'm talking about these things and figuring these things out like oh it's an automatic process oh it's not something i can control it's my default here's what i love about what we do what we do translates to everything when you see somebody with a movement pattern a recruitment pattern that they've learned the only way they could get gain a new automatic recruitment pattern is the first consciously train a new one it's work so you get someone whose shoulders roll forward when they row yeah you can't just tell them pull your shoulders back you're getting into that they're gonna hike their show you know this we've done so many times so you have to put them in position they have to train it strengthen it develop this new default pattern and then eventually becomes their automatic but at first have to like practice well that's it okay so it's the same thing now you're highlighting now you're highlighting a really good point because okay here's here's the awareness plus the the new pattern that we've tried to create in one situations like this so when there's a time when Katrina claims that i'm thinking so loud it's keeping her awake right so she'll be like i can't sleep i can hear you and i'm like i'm not fucking moving how is that possible i can literally fill your thoughts like that's how weird this is how crazy this is right she'll tell you she used to do this a lot we haven't done this in a long time but she used to like get up and box breathe with me and we would box totally together totally to calm me all the way down get the physical part down so that your body's like oh we can chill yes she's probably picking up a lot of your body signals though because she did a lot of body work with people right yeah i mean she's not even touching me bro this is like as laying in bed i mean she can she's hyper aware of the cues that you can't even consciously like when you notice something's tense but you can't put your finger on some people just yeah they have that she has that it's also one of her gifts yeah she's always been one of the things i've always been attracted to her is that that we she has that right i think it's the thing i like to think that we share is this ability to be able to do that what's wild is that she can do it on a level that be like eyes closed 10 o'clock at night i've been laying there for an hour and nothing has been said or movement and then she'll out of nowhere be like stop it leave me alone dude i need to say i need to bring something i need to change directions here because i need to bring this up i my position on a topic is become uh a little bit more it's a little it's been strengthened and maybe a little more extreme i think electrolyte supplementation is necessary for athletes i don't think it's an option anymore i think it's necessary i've had enough experiences now with elementy with family members friends their kids adults people who do jujitsu soccer basketball whatever i can back that up for sure everything i've seen every single one of them profound difference when they use electrolytes versus when they do so why i don't change any athletes yeah yes so i find that really interesting right and hard to believe is the amount of sodium that is in the processed foods which is 90% of most americans diets you would think that they are getting an overwhelming amount of that even if you're an athlete so what is it good question so i don't think it's the over total all excuse me overall the other minerals total sodium i think it has more to do with the supplementing the electrolytes when they're being excreted and it allows for the balancing to happen faster so they're not taking elementy during the day and then tomorrow they go do their sport everybody i'm talking about it's like right before enduring got it if you're gonna sweat before enduring got it every single person because of the demand of that physical exertion literally the messages i'm getting so like uh i have a uh well like cramps like you know headaches so my buddy does jujitsu he's a jujitsu he's gonna compete soon right and he's like oh here's the symptoms i'm suffering from what do you think is happening so fatigue you know he's like his muscles are not feeling good he's not recovering fast enough i said here's something easy you could try i said stop by the studio i'll give you a box of elementy let me know what you think he's like what is that like it's electrolyte sodium magnesium potassium try it let me what you think literally the text i got what's in that that's what i got i'm like what do you mean did you like i thought something happened like he goes bro he goes i took it for two days when i trained i felt profoundly better more stamina more endurance i was stronger i just felt really good then i didn't take it fell crap again then i started taking it i feel amazing he goes what's in that there's got to be other stuff in there i said no literally what i told you sodium potassium and magnesium and it's a it's a decent amount of sodium do you do you think there's something potentially there also with the magnesium of course considering that 60 plus percent of of united states is deficient on magnesium it's not i wouldn't use elementy as a magnesium supplement but you have you want to have some potassium magnesium to allow the sodium to do its job that's what you want so it's balanced in that sense but it's not a magnesium supplement okay so that so does that have to do with the the transportation of it yep okay well that makes sodium works in the body makes a lot of sense to me because although the the american diet is tons of processed food tons of sodium it probably doesn't have a a perfect balance of sodium to magnesium no and so even though you're getting all this fucking sodium it's high in sodium and that's not the ideal way to transport it into your body you're now taking the most optimal way to do that right before you go into session even if you are getting all this process crap and so that's why maybe everybody is feeling such yeah the average america because it's obvious to me the the dieter right the health nut who is eating all whole foods like that's very obvious to me because there's a substantial difference right right that's what we felt and we or loaded yeah yeah but it is i have i've seen the same thing with all the athletes i've worked with and have tried elementy it's just like because of that demand in that that high exertion all levels of that like it have improved when they use it yeah it's so it's so for athletes let's say it's an athlete who eats a normal diet okay so their sodium intake isn't low like someone who eats whole whole foods only or low carb yeah actually need it's not that their total sodium is deficient and they need more it's that when they're sweating their ass off playing their sport it's the timing of it your body will take some time to balance itself out it'll take longer if you don't have the sodium readily available like you would with electrolyte powder so this he's drinking so literally he's i told him drink half before drink the other half during and he's it's night night day and that's like the i don't know tenth person uh that i know that's reported that and none of them are like eating like a perfect no i've had nothing but positive stuff from everybody i've given that out to to people a lot just because simply you know i thought you were going to say something about uh the ketamine thing because did you i felt like you should address the the crazy long letter that we got from somebody that was so offended by you talking what that it's expensive no no not that one not that way we got that one too no that like literally saying like you're not talking about the potential harmful stuff and the fact that sal's promoting ketamine on there i thought it was really funny that we had somebody that's my personal experience i know you this is the part that i think it's hilarious about a platform like this like you can't it's like you want you want so bad to have a bunch of guys be as raw and honest and authentic as you possibly can but then heaven forbid they share that they're going through something in their life that might have some controversy around it or uncertainty around it or scary for something like what the fuck like you yeah it's like you can't have both why would you ever do that yeah can't have both you're not me yeah no no no no no potential harms i mean it's all i'm doing this all supervised uh this is not long term you don't do it forever um you know ketamine's been around for a long time that's why it was one of the first ones in the category to be approved for the use uh but yeah it's not natural and they do it i wish i mean i would love to be able to do this naturally um but yeah i mean it might take me years it might take me five years ten years i look i don't suffer from treatment resistant depression or ptsd so yeah maybe i'm maybe i'm doing me you know i have the luxury of of doing this and it's cool but if you have treatment resistant depression or ptsd oftentimes nothing works yeah or you gonna live for ten years are very slim come on it's it's about it's a quality life thing that's it which i also think addresses the other that other email that you were just saying is the one that you know someone got all upset because it was expensive sure i don't think we've ever came on here and claimed to be the cheapest anything for the thing i think we've got the opposite actually it's like i want the best of whatever thing i can find and like if it's the most expensive i'm sorry hey look i if you look at the data no affiliation okay not selling anything there's no discount code or anything like that but you if you look at the data on on depression treatments the classic ssri whatever and then you look at what they're doing with ketamine and how it's working for some of these people the ketamine people will do treatment for a few months and then not take it for a year or two and then it'll stick around ssri yeah it's cheaper in the short term but guess what you stay on that shit forever so do the math you probably if it works as advertised you're saving money i mean i really don't give a shit with someone else thinks of me as my friend i would i would want to hear about it you know i'm saying if you're going through that process i respect you as somebody who's well read intelligent doing your homework so like you're out just experimenting with drugs all over the place you know i'm saying like looking for it honestly now you're looking for a good high or something like that it's like listen you're trying to do deep therapy work on yourself you've tried a lot of different things that you're having profound effects that i'm curious like i want to selfishly know so fuck you you know shout out oh is this to dr con yeah yeah yeah hook up dr con what a cool one dude okay and experience brilliant yeah with a great young scientist doctor groundbreaking medicine he's doing yeah yeah he's doing rejuvenate are we allowed to talk about who he's with i mean he say we could say that i don't know then you wait for the episode for them to hear that but uh i he's definitely doing some big yeah what's his uh what's his instagram is at dr.akhan is that what that is correct and he's blowing up right now i know yep i know really let me put it this way we talk to him just find just find him and follow him because we can't say much because we have an episode with them coming out genuine good dude to blew my mind like totally blew my mind some of the stuff that he said yeah we all had dinner afterwards and it was just literally everybody taking turns picking his brain dude is absolutely brilliant and to funny funny side note he's uh at one point was ranked the number one halo player in the world on xbox just a little icing there yeah hilarious i thought that was really funny that was around the time when i was gaming i dropped my game recognize him i took that picture he heard of him i sent him the picture and recognize him then i told him his game name and he's like oh yeah yeah i have heard of him by the way his gaming i love how he talked about how being the world's best halo player helps him with his treatments now so the way he does treatments now some of the therapy he the more accurate you can inject the needle and the closer you can get to the area that needs to be treated the more effective you're gonna be so he's watching an MRI machine while he's moving a needle around getting and everybody's like eating with himself everybody's like nobody has hands like this guy and he's like i learned it from playing halo that's that's like that grand therese movie did you guys watch that yet no it's actually really good all right true story right yeah i haven't seen it oh it's worth though it's worth the watch it was actually really entertaining i really enjoyed it i could treat it i watched it just so they're not so good you've probably heard us talk about peptide science and how it can affect the body well there's a company called enteris skincare that makes peptide creams and lotions for skin and some that go on your scalp that regrow hair this stuff is legit it really works like peptides are real they have profound effects you literally will see a difference no joke if you use their skincare stuff within two applications that's what we all noticed and then for the hair regrowth this stuff is legit it is not a pharmaceutical it is not a drug that's going to have negative side effects it literally improves health and blood flow to the scalp and allows your hair your hair to regrow or to grow thicker and faster this stuff is legit check them out go to enteris skincare.com that's e n t e r a skincare.com forward slash m p m and then use the code n p m for 10% off your order all right back to the show first question is from Muhammad the one one does heavy deadlifting on a pole day grow for arms or bicep oh controversial controversial the deadlifts make your arms bigger it's not a direct arm exercise but let's say pole day it's confused over yeah but let's talk about the the data right the data shows that heavy isometrics recruit the most amount of muscle fibers heavy isometrics can build muscle and strength also muscles that are put under tension in a stretch position or elongated position that is the the best position for hypertrophy now all ranges of motion build muscle but lengthened in comparison to like mid-ranger contracted is going to build the most amount of muscle and there's also load right they just did just the sheer load that the cns has to manage sends a muscle building signal so look at the deadlift crazy isometric tension in the biceps and the forearms create in fact if you've never deadlifted the most demand you're going to get totally and if you've never deadlifted and you go deadlift heavy because you're relatively strong in your hips and legs and all stuff you'll find your biceps to sore the next day or your brachialis will be sore the next day so heavy isometric check is in a length in position your bicep is in a length in position check and then load finding an exercise you could load more than deadlift so controversial but i'll say yeah you could definitely you will build well in all the hypertrophy nerds are going to argue because everything revolves around bicep curls and that's the only way you can uh you know build and develop your biceps but you the i mean there's there's plenty of studies out there for isometrics just exactly the way you're describing it and this is placing the most amount of load you can possibly place on your forearm and and bicep uh with that in mind if it being the isometric controlled uh stabilized position that you're if you're fixated in with those but there's other ways to train them and all of it is beneficial thank you not just the one thing that we're talking about here so uh just that's you know for all the haters i i'm we all gonna go say it so funny i thought i was gonna be the only one to jump all over the idiots so i know this is gonna piss off all the science nerds you went after hypertrophy bodybuilders i'm gonna go after all the science nerds that live in a six to 12 week study bubble or only know how to tout studies they read versus like real world experience my whole life i've been lifting and as a kid like arms and forearms were like such a big deal to me and i did every forearm magazine superset workout exercise you could think of the strongest and biggest my forearms ever got was when i wasn't giving two shits about them but all i was doing was trying to catch sal on the deadlift yep that was the biggest and strongest my forearms have not even close to when i was cycling like hitting them two to three times a week and doing all these cool exercises that i would reverse curls everything nothing got them strong when i didn't even care about getting my forearms stronger or bigger but i was so focused on getting strong at the deadlift they came up that much that's how impactful it's been that's right that what happens with the question like this is there's this false uh like this question is pretty direct what they're not asking is are deadlifts better than curls for the biceps right it's not an either or no it's a hey does heavy deadlifting have a hypertrophy effect on the forearms and biceps yes yes absolutely are they involved in stabilizing is there tremendous tension on those muscles and then like i said with the bicep in particular it's in a length in position if i stop deadlifting so i love deadlifting but sometimes i'll go for a couple months without doing it and i'll work on correctional exercise or other things because i can deadlift pretty heavy even when i don't do it consistently and i'll get little nagging injuries and pains that'll pop up and so now that i'm wiser and older i'll be like i'm going to back off on deadlifting for a while i'm going to work on these where i notice these issues then i'll go back to deadlifting see if i feel better and i've done that now you know i don't know five or six times or lasts a few years every time i go back to deadlifting i'm still pretty i can always pull five plates no matter what so i'll go pull five plates you know where i got sore my my biceps i'll feel it at the here at the insertion or my brachialis just from the tension of holding the bar so yeah it's definitely doing something but it's not either or it's a plus or an and the question is really just deadlifting and doing arm exercises better than just doing arm exercise the answers yeah yeah i think the point though that i think is important this is how much my also training has changed again arms were such a focus when i was a kid i used to just train arms and if i ever you know fell off the wagon for a week or two came back what did i start with arms never missed arm day but i missed leg day i miss chest day i miss all these other days all the time because i cared so much about building building my arms the way i train is completely different i rarely ever train my arms what i will go do is go use some pull-ups go do some deadlifts like i'll do something like that because what i know is that's such that movement is so beneficial for overall muscle on my body and your arms and i'm hitting my arms still so it's like just my philosophy around training is and i'm always looking like if i if i'm only going to go in and do a few things in the past that would be arms i would do a whole arm workout for half hour if that was always do would be that would be the last thing on a totem pole now it's like i'm going to go in and do deadlifting or pull-ups or these big movements that i get to develop my back and my forearms and my biceps all in one exercise it just makes more speaking of which the other day i saw a dude working out jack well developed and he was doing the the pull-down version that we talked about as a bicep pull-down version the compound lift i saw him he had his wrist like this and he pulled down but he had this kind of like rounded position because he was focusing on the bicep yeah and i'm like oh and he's very well developed obviously knows what he's doing it's not like he has bad pull-down technique and then i went and saw him do other exercises for his biceps like oh he's doing pull-downs for biceps he gets it that's i never saw that love that next question is from jonathan sosh what certifications did you all start with as personal trainers and did you feel like they helped prepare you to be a personal trainer all right this again another controversial answer um the certification that actually had the most benefit for me and my career as a trainer was the correctional exercise courses that i took there was this huge carryover into what i do with my clients and value that i brought them now i'm going to be honest i hate to say this but i don't know most if not all the certifications aside from the ones i just talked about they didn't really do much for me in terms of my success or my client success except for making me feel a little bit more confident most of the value or success i got as a trainer came from learning through experience and here's the second one this is the big one learning from other better more experienced trainers and coaches yeah like the certifications didn't do much for me except for the correctional exercise ones they were kind of a waste of time i needed to get them or i'd get paid more for getting them or i'd have trainers go through them so i'd want to go through them but i didn't learn a whole lot uh from them that i could apply that would brought value to people yeah i have a pretty similar experience with that i mean i liked nsm is a good baseline and but it really was just touching up on anatomy physiology terms and in biomechanics on a very surface level uh which is you know i went to college and studied all that so it was just like oh cool nice little refresher to kind of get me in the minds of how to like communicate this now to an average person but in terms of like beyond that for me it was always like picking the brains of qualified trainers and what they were doing with their clients and then sometimes i would go really it was like the the unconventional the the ones i had to go in person to go through the actual mechanics like kettlebell training and um like when i when i learned um indian clubs and uh different types of like tools that you physically need to be able to to to go through the right patterns and get taught and uh that way it was easier for me to then incorporate it and program it in and show clients and have confidence on how to kind of like you know take them through those movements it's like but for me it was all about like taking bits and pieces of a lot of concepts and modalities out there which is i could get a lot of that from communicating with really good trainers and watching them apply to their clients you know i i as much as i actually shit on the formal education stuff i actually got quite a bit of stuff i went through eight different national certifications during my entire career i probably don't know if i could list all of them but i do know there was there's some that stand out to me that i think taught me different things um ifpa was my first one that was pretty much a joke but it got me introduced uh in asm i think was one of the most well-rounded first taught me the squad assessment really well corrective exercise specialist hands down i agree i think we would all probably put that up as probably one of the best and i didn't i never took ken stretch or um uh what is kelly starrett did he do want to camera or his supple leopard stuff like i didn't get that till wait later ability i would probably push somebody in kin stretch and supple effort direction now even for the instead of corrective exercise but corrective exercise specialist was what was around when we got in there the sports performance specialist uh that i got through in asm i thought that was really valuable because that introduced me to sports training uh nesta was the first certification that really opened my eyes to like oh wow there's some really conflicting views on it they were the first ones that discussed deeper squats like astagrass squats and and for a national certification that was really weird and it really kind of shattered my paradigm because i came out of the already getting all these in asm let me you know let me comment on that real quick sorry to cut you off it's what's funny about what you're just talking about it was it it taught you a lot because it countered the other shit you learn from other certifications yes had you just through experience and through training with other coaches who experienced you would have learned that yeah right off the gate yeah it was more groundbreaking countered the shit that you thought i cherry picked a lot of it well and i started to so part of the the best benefits from having all these certifications was starting to see that yeah there was differences in philosophy with like nsca on their nutritional component versus like an ace or an alpha like so i i got i got to experience so many that it opened my eyes up more of like oh sure this isn't just the so part of like when you hear me talk about stuff like education the reason why i kind of rag on it's because you know show me a certification that says this i'll show you another one that says the opposite because they have there's so many like gray areas when you get into biomechanics and nutrition on some things and so i did get a lot of value from having all those different certifications hands down the best a corrective exercise specialist second probably was even the foundational nsm for having this squat assessment i really attribute a lot to the nest that to opening my eyes about a deeper squat some sort of like mobility training like can stretch i think would be a massive one to have even though i didn't go through the formal though it'd be valuable to that's heavy and deep it's but i mean to to set yourself aside and be able to get traction and with your spine i think i mean there's stuff out there i think there's a lot of value but again to me it was like more of like i'm gonna extract what i can actually apply to my clients and have because i i get the whole like they have to like lay out the whole philosophy the modality they there's the education of the why behind all these concepts and i think that you know you get a lot from that but in terms of application of it there's few certifications out there that do a good job of that and i think you know like your jota franko's there's a is a fantastic and and to nci and you know just more of these these heavily focused on the application of like now take this apply to your client here's how you're gonna program it and and this is where it's actually gonna like you know you're gonna reap benefit from it yeah look here okay here's the deal we all trained trainers and they were successful not because of the training knowledge no definitely taught them but because we taught them the culture the proper culture the proper philosophy of what makes a successful trainer there's a way of being and a way of approaching health and fitness that makes you successful that you need to have knowledge so i this this the whole debate around not you know education knowledge like i feel like that's that's a given like yeah you got to know stuff you don't know stuff that's step one like you gotta know stuff but really what makes you successful is do you walk this path in this way that makes you successful and effective in a real true way and the only way i'd learn that through being around other successful trainers and coaches not by them teaching me but by me watching them listening to them watching the interactions how they compose themselves how they lived the way that they said certain things that i knew to be true but it was the way that they said it the way they approached it that was so damn effective it was literally like it's this culture that when you meet successful coaches and trainers you could take 10 around the world who are successful as defined by they built a big a good business and their clients achieve forever success they actually really modify help clients modify behaviors that last forever you take 10 from around the world put them in a room have them train clients there's gonna be a lot of differences but one thing is going to stay the same they're all gonna have this similar approach and philosophy and culture around how they operate that nobody teaches nobody to you there's no certification that you said unfortunately there's a reason we're building what we're building right now right we we have we have had the opportunity to go spoiler alert well i mean come on it's it's it's been well overdue and i think it needs to be addressed and we 100 percent this is the thought process forever and to your point for every trainer that you have that has a you know four-year degree plus eight national certifications i'll show you the kid who's 19 years old has no national cert or one basic certification and his business is thriving compared to that one so because he understands what i just said that's right just because you have a ton of that now if you can take what is it about that kid who has this thriving business and has minimal knowledge in the space and he's thriving and he's whooping the guy who's got eight certifications and a degree you could take what he's do this is his ability to communicate so effectively and blend it with that person's knowledge look the fuck out now you're talking about your class that's right that's now you're talking about a world-class trainer right there now you're talking about when you throw names around like a joe de franco and stuff like that somebody who has the knowledge to go round for round with some of the smartest people in the space but then communicate it to the simplest i understand that's right and make it effective and implement it and so you know quite frankly this is where national certifications miss the mark they do such a good job of going deep on anatomy physiology nutrition theory of everything that's right and they and they and they give you the science behind everything but it is not the most important part here's the bottom line a a physicist can explain the physics of a race car exceptionally well what makes it fast what makes it turn well but can he race makes a rev but he ain't gonna he's not going to be a race car driver in a race who's been driving this whole lot that's it that's it you want to be an effective trainer you got to be the race car driver not the physicist it's a fact now you combine the two you got like you said yeah world-class next question is from josh j 93 what maps programs are you guys currently following oh i love this you know what i always so i'll go through general generally follow loosely the programs that we put together and i say loosely because i obviously individualism because i know myself and all that stuff right but i always bounce back to the original full-body maps and a ball of style training and i move outside of it like right now i'm doing a lot of lateral training and some more correctional work but then when i feel like i'm good i go back to that old three day a week full body days in between maybe some trigger sessions maybe some mobility stuff it just it's always the best place for me in terms of progress i always feel the best i feel the strongest and i can go outside of it to push my body harder add more volume do different things that's your home your stasis but i get back in there and i'm like this is where i think we all have that right yeah we sort of our preferences like i i tend to fall back into more functional and you know more maps performance type training but i i mean i flirt around with like your maps anabolic and in mass power lift and you know what i was doing a lot beforehand was the old time strength yeah and was like really getting into that and then was realizing oh my god like i ran the other day and was like man i am winded and so all i've been doing the last like month and a half has been cardio and so if you want to pick any of ours it's literally modeled after a lot of what we put in maps cardio with the pushing the sled around and and getting after it and get lighter on my feet and working a lot more on my forefoot and so conditioning is a big one for me right now so i want to point out something that because we get this question right now and then you you both you know like similar modeled after it's important that the the the person who's asking this question and the people that tend to ask this question you understand that the ultimate place to get is that you have such a deep understanding and knowledge of programming as i'd like to think that the three of us have we're creating them yeah right so i hope yeah and this is my place why i sometimes this question is a little funny to me right it's like uh i'd like to think that everybody in here is a black belt on program design that you don't have to follow this rigid structure every single day that you show up to work out you understand the core principles of every single thing that we've written and where to apply and when to apply them based off of how you feel what you're thinking what your goals are at that moment and that could ebb and flow based off of where you're currently at your life yeah what you're saying is this is why it's so important because people will also say well what do you eat okay yeah what i do for myself probably has zero that's right application for you now if you're doing it out of curiosity that's totally fine okay but if you're listening to it be like i'm gonna follow that because that's what they do it's like zero application i know and i know it's in our best interest to say things like i'm following this to the tea you know so like so i'm selling our program all time but the reality is like that's not how it was just like i don't follow a rigid diet all time and that also means i would never teach my client to do exactly what i'm doing i don't expect them i just wear the t-shirt i don't expect them to be but that's our goal of this podcast and writing all these programs is to to be able to give that to all of you is for you to be able to experience these programs to listen to the show to be able to get in and to where you like understand at that level that you don't have to follow one of as as bad as that sounds for our business so you don't have to follow one of our programs but you've understood you understand it at that level that you know how to ebb and flow that now there's a lot of cocky arrogant people that think they know at that level that probably should follow it to a T until they get that understanding of like how to model it around their life but i mean the only times i really follow our programs too is when we create them there's a test amount to test them out i then i want to run through phases and be like society yeah and be like hey and give feedback to the guys like you know that was a little much you know we probably shouldn't have added that with that i felt this going on and like so we'll make little adjustments like that and that's part of that's why the process of building a program for us is a big process it's not simply like hey let's throw a bunch of exercise together and call it map performance and we'll throw some cardio shit in there it's not like that it's like there's a lot of thought that goes into it and testing but as far as like following a rigid program i don't know i think dug is the only one that does that yeah yeah well he's not a black belt yeah he's the least experienced although although you're going to be there soon i would give you another what are you running right now dug uh maps 15 minutes advanced so i'm in phase three right now and i'm actually loving the program so i've gone through anabolic probably 20 plus times that's the one you always bounce back i always bounce back to that so i usually do programs in between whether it's aesthetic or strong or you know what is symmetry some of the ones i've done recently but i always go back to anabolic but after this last round of working out i was feeling in my body i was feeling a little bit tired so i thought well maps 15 minutes would be perfect for me so this is what i look like the most if i were to say because you guys all gave things that you're close maps 15 is how i'm training most like maps five right now yeah and i'll tell you why i love maps 15 coming next year three minute abs that's annoying because you look like you're doing maps 45 maps five all that muscle memory or whatever the hell it is i don't know yeah it's most likely like maps 15 i really i mean i tell you what since you went that way dawg like i have really really enjoyed map 15 actually is probably the least like anything i would have trained most of my life and i find that i get far more benefits than i would have expected it's surprising it's very it's super very surprising i got stronger and i really i really enjoy the freedom of training in in such either and i what i do is i go sometimes it's a 15 minute workout sometimes i combine two 15s to a third so i kind of that's what it looks like so if i have a three day a week where i only train three days a week i've probably combined some of the 15 minutes to a 30 if i stretch it out for six days i've broken up in 15 minutes so i'm doing the advanced which is about 20 minutes of workout i love that i mean it's in and out real quick you feel good and i realized i was maybe overdoing it a little bit after you know so many months of following all the programs and pulling back i feel great i feel like you know i was i kind of grew up with the more is better mentality and realizing that maybe less is better for me at this stage oh you know one last point to make because i just want to drill this one because we do get this so much is now if i were to say i'm going to go compete or i'm going to go like i have i'm like very serious like i've got to build a bunch of muscle like i probably would default to like following one of our programs so i have a structure to measure to track to get like but then you would still modify yeah i still would but i would be way more like i'm following this because it's that important like it's just not that important to me right now like i really don't care if you know 0.3 percent less muscle got built this week or you know i didn't i didn't lose enough like i'm not there in my life i'm in a place in my life for i want to be healthy i want to be fit strong i want to be mobile but i don't need to be the fittest the strongest the most mobile just those are good life you want to have yeah i want balance you know what i'm saying and i want to spend the least amount of time working out as i can't take to maintain all those things totally so yeah you know you said something i think you just put it out there like literally our goal with the maps programs is to eventually have people not follow any programs and be able to train themselves yes so our goal is literally to you were at one with your fitness yeah to create customers that are no longer customers but i've tried i've tried to do that though me i've tried to do it i've tried to go off on my own do my own thing it lasts for maybe two weeks it takes a while well that's just good self-awareness some people are going to be that way no it's two weeks and then i say i need structure and so i go back i i do well with the structure there's nothing and see that's too that's important i mean people are asking us so i think we are not like that where Doug may follow programs for the rest of his life because he's not like that because maybe you look at it is like i want to outsource that thinking i i respect the guys so much yes i could do it myself but why when i have these three dudes that have put together something so good i can outsource that thought process there's nothing wrong with that also but when we get asked that question i think it's funny because it's like it's not like that for me yeah it's i love experiment and conjure yes i love it it's easy it's a little bit is always kind of experimenting and doing different things like it's our passion and so i don't want to outsource that in fact i'm very greedy about it i want to always be adjusting it customizing it to my needs and i'm not going to follow something like constantly iterating things see if i can improve any kind of level so next question is from foveal castle is the seed oil controversy real yeah well we kind of touched on this earlier i'm going to read to you guys so lane did a tweet that i commented on this was a few weeks ago and the grants or disagreements well i mean so here's what i like about lane obviously he's a he's a scientist but he's also got tons of integrity and if he's not dogmatic no he can be dogmatic about things that are true objectively and argues point but he'll change his mind right so he did a post and it says if you don't want to eat seed oils cool but the mental gymnastics on some of you people is olympic level i wish the data said seed oils were bad then i could jump on the bandwagon and have everyone applaud me but that's not what the data says and he says f your feelings right classic lane right he's very likeable for a lot of people i love it so now my comment underneath his post was my issue with seed oils or any other food that requires industrial level processing to access is that we could be eating something in quantities that our bodies never evolved alongside with this could mean nothing but so far it usually means not ideal that really summarizes my view around them what's funny about this by the way it reminds response so he didn't he didn't respond to it but there was a scientist underneath it this other guy this is the shit that i hate right here and lane would not say this to me but this guy says it and he goes yep that means nothing if it meant something the data would show it oh god my response to him is that's arrogant and ignorant at the same time have we ever run into a situation where data showed no harm and then data showed clear harm like what and then i'm sure he went crickets after that just it's just now they try to backtrack it's so annoying to me like do we need more examples of times we thought one thing is the data showed something then we learned something later on we don't now my opinion on seed oils is air on the side of caution if you have the option and the choices that's all because like i said uh seed oils the quantity that we consume them was never possible without industrial processing we never co-evolved with this level of consumption of oils that are not like other oils that we consume in larger quantities and usually that means that there's downstream effects that aren't great usually not always unforeseen consequence now by the way is someone someone's gonna make the case in argument well that's almost everything in our life so well that's why you should proceed with caution with almost everything that's true we didn't evolve with fucking big giant TVs that we stood five feet from staring at for hours you're actually responsible for your own health maybe think about that might not be the best idea you know it says it's it's take your brain and outsource it's legal and it's okay we have nothing that shows that it's going to do any major brain damage okay but we didn't we didn't grow we didn't exist with that just 50 years ago so maybe consider doing that and then oh by the way now we've made we've downsized in this little handheld thing we can give it to our two-year-olds to watch like maybe think about that it's like yeah i'll take it a step further uh we didn't evolve knowing the news of the world okay we evolved knowing the news of our tribe meaning we're attracted to negative news because it kept us to survive and we needed to know because if john who lives in the cave got eaten by a mountain lion says hey oh shit i saw some stuff down there like you're gonna want to listen yeah now i can go on my phone and learn about every kidnapping and every murder and every rape and every crazy thing around the world we didn't evolve with that kind of knowledge what does that produce tremendous anxiety it's a fact stop watching the news watch your anxiety drop it's that's all it is that does it mean it's bad to know things no not necessarily but you should be aware that's true for everything so seed oils yeah dude like go look at the process that is required maybe you could pull up the process of creating like rapeseed oil okay great name by the way i think i think they call it canola now now it's canola oil rapeseed oil yeah that had me concerned yeah i'll still call my shirt away a little less consumption from now why you know the part that it's interesting too but why Doug pulls us up sal is there's so many replacements to that so why is it such a big deal i know you can cook canola at a much higher temperature so for deep frying it's it's better than like which we shouldn't be doing with most our foods yeah well not necessarily deep fry with lard or something like that or okay here's why because cheap it's massively produced and it's inexpensive try to replace it you're gonna pay a lot more money that's all it's also very it also has a long shelf life when you produce things with it it's it's very convenient but look how it's produced it's extracted by heating the crushed canola seeds which by the way how much oil do you think is in a seed of a canola seed yeah like they have to do a lot of them to do this which you would never consume that many anyway right but you have to crush them then you dissolve them in a hexane solvent then it's refined using precipitation and acid to remove gums and free fatty acids filtering them and then they use deodorized then they have to deodorize it so that doesn't smell or have a flavor so it's like this flavorless odorless oil like that's a lot of shit that we can only do now because of technology they weren't able to do that a hundred years ago a thousand years ago or or beyond so just proceed with caution i if i had to bet money that they're going to show that it's worse for you than other easily accessible oils i'd bet money on that and and i'd probably win not a guarantee but i'd probably win that's all that's my whole position with it so if you have the choice i would go with something else but do i think that it's as important as like eating the right amount of calories eating high protein getting good sleep sticking to whole natural foods drinking adequate what like no i don't i don't think there's bigger movers out there i mean i think there's this reminds me do we i don't know if we talked about at the time were um are we had two friends josh trend and max lougevier and then or three if you include uh check paul check did a video about max lougevier driving through mcdonald's and then eating josh came after him and then they tried to loop us in to pile on max and you know one of the reasons why i think we love max is that we we share a similar type of position around things like this right like hey this isn't probably not ideal so i'm not telling everybody they should comprise their whole diet of going through mcdonald's drive-through and eating burgers but in a pinch and it would people that say you don't have enough money and you need and you're lacking protein and here's a source like this is a possible way to do it yet at the same time i'm saying this is not ideal and then you have the people that love to like do the fear mongering on the other side that's just like oh my god this is like the worst thing and it's like there's there's a balance there i feel like and i think there's people that do a puritans i think there's a good i think people that do a good job of communicating i think max is one of those examples of somebody who talks about we could create all kinds of fear around seed oils and then the average person who doesn't do anything else is like oh it's the seed oils i'm gonna go and overeat a bunch of other shit oh this has no seed oils in it but it's like candy right there's no seed oils and candy but there's but whatever that's that's an extreme example but that's what ends up happening when you place too much value on one thing and you miss the big rocks you miss the big things that are big movers which is like start by eating high protein diet eat whole natural foods for the most part lift weights or do some strength training here in there get some good sleep like that's 90 percent of your health right there maybe 95 percent then the rest you know you could look at all the little moving parts and seed oils and you know if something has preservatives in it and stuff like that or protein powder versus actual you know food that kind of stuff so look if you love the show head over to mindpumpfree.com and check out all of our free fitness guides we have a fitness guide for almost everybody and again they're free you can also find all of us on instagram justin is at mind pump justin i'm at mind pump to stefano and adam is at mind pump adam