In today's video, we're taking 30 vintage Yu-Gi-Oh Packs and pitting them against each other. What's up guys, we're back with another battle where we have 10 original Yu-Gi-Oh Packs, Pharoah Servant, we have 10 original Yu-Gi-Oh GX Packs, first edition actually, and then we have 10 original Yu-Gi-Oh 5Ds Packs, Extreme Victory. So we have 10, 10 and 10, 30 total packs. This will be a three way pack battle to see is the original GX or 5Ds, the best Yu-Gi-Oh series. I want you to put your votes down in the comments. But before we get to it, we have a giveaway. I've been giving away these three cards. This is a 5D Super Rare. We have a original Super Rare and we have a Yu-Gi-Oh GX Super Rare. So one representing each of the categories. Just like the video, be subscribed to our notifications. Let me know down below. What will we pull and what is the best series is original? Is it GX or is it 5Ds? All right, guys, let's get to it. Let's start with 5Ds because this is the newest set, 2011 though. I mean, Extreme Victory is pretty old. I've never pulled the ghost in this set. So we could pull it. We could add that to our total ghost pulled ever and stuff like that.  One, two, three from the back. We have a Serene Psychic Witch. That's not, that looks like a rare for some reason. Reboot, Psychic Reactor. We have Aurora Paragon out of the six samurai. TGX1HL, Six-Style Dual-Wheeled Brain Hazard. And we have Boon of the Mech Lord Emperor. So starting it off, we have nothing. We got nothing for 5Ds. We're trying to get a W. I personally, obviously, I'm rooting for the original, but honestly, I like all three series here. I think 5Ds has one of the more fun, like the sets can contain more foils and stuff. So it's kind of fun. The originals and GX is more like, you know, you're looking for one big pull and stuff like that. Synthetic Seraphim. We have the Elemental Hero Nios. That's a great common. Not worth money, but that's a cool one to pull out. Orb of Embargoon. We have D-Spirit. He got done dirty.  And D-Chain. The Chain of the D. Okay, time to try Pharaoh Servant. Okay, there we go. I feel like it wasn't focusing great. Looks a little better. The background's a little more blurred, but that'll work. Make it look a little better. Okay, Pharaoh Servant. Can we get, I think this is a retail pack. I'm pretty sure. So that means no Genzo. We're looking for stuff like Buster Blader. We're looking for stuff like Legendary Fisherman, stuff like that. Twin Head to Fire Dragon. Invitation to a Dark Sleep. Mystic Probe. Gamel, watch out. Cyber Falcon. A jet-powered hawk that travels at the speed of sound. Shadow of Eyes. Drill Bug. And we have Monster Recovery. So everybody is starting off with a dud pack. I guess that's a nice, even way to start. Stream Victory up next, first edition. If I could pick any card to pull here, it would be the Ghost Junk Berzerker, because that would mean, you know, I've pulled it finally. I can add that to my tally. Tyrant's Tantrum is up next. We have the Clock Resonator. Runaway, Karakuri. TG1EM1, we have Force Resonator. Fortissimo, the Mobile Fortress. Karakuri, Cash Shed. Oh, this is one I always miss. Also, what kind of... Okay, two commons. Wait, how many cards have we pulled? Three, six. There were 10 cards in this pack, because I did three from the back. So look, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10. 10 cards. If you take a look at the pack, it says there should be nine cards per pack. So we just got an error pack. And the funny part is there were two unknown synchrons, so they put an extra unknown synchron in there. It should have been like this, but there was an included unknown synchron, and then there was a hollow. So I was like, I did three from the back. There's no way there should be four cards left after that. And also, I guess I need to do a different pack trip, because this is one that I always miss. It's very hard to see this hollow, but this time I noticed it, and we had an error pack. So that's actually pretty cool. Okay, Power of the Duelist. Let's see what you can do. So we've got one pull. I don't really know if that even gave them a lead, though. Error pack, she counts a dollar, right? I mean, it doesn't, but it should. Let's see what we can get. Power of the Duelist, we have pulled error packs out of before. So maybe we can do it again. We have Black Stago. What's up with the, I just can't find the right spot for it to focus. Alien Hunter, Common Soul, maybe like right there. Warner Garage, it's just not really grabbing it very well, Baby Serious Wars, which doesn't happen very often with iPhone. We have Dolphin. A lot of people ask, what do I use to record? It's just an iPhone. Most of the time it's really good. Right now, not so much.  That looks good right there. Usually the autofocus is great, which is what you want for like a card opening. You don't necessarily want a real camera. Real cameras are much harder to focus than everything. I've never understood trying to use a real camera on cards because then you're like trying to get it to focus though like constantly, which is what I'm doing right now, which just makes it hilarious. But usually I don't have this issue. We have Infinite Dismissal, Bubonic Vermin, Seven Completed, Chain of Javelin, and the Shallow Grave. So Fair of Servant is officially letting us down at 0 for 2. Stream Victory though. We've already gotten an error pack. We've gotten a cash shed. I mean, pretty solid. Can't complain about that. One, two, three from the back. That should, oh wait, no, no. You got to do this, this pack trick, right? Okay. We have a TGX 300, Mech Time Blast, Ikara Curry, Kamashi, MDL 224, Nanishi. That is a lot of words. TG1 EM1, Mental Seeker, Gladiator Beast, Tigerious, Esper Girl, and okay, Hush Psychic, and TGJep Falcon. We can also of course get the tour guide out of here. First edition, which I should obviously mention. It's a big one. It is the biggest card in the set, I believe. I originally pulled it. My very first Extreme Victory box opening when it was like a $50 box. I pulled one back in whenever that was, probably 2018, 2019, something like that. Back in our early video on the channel, we have Royal Red Attack Station at Rallis. We got Saber Source. So far, this battle has been pretty wimpy. It's showing you that opening old packs usually is not great. I might do a little video probably pretty soon. Probably, I'm going to record it after this maybe, because I just thought of it, of old packs versus new packs and see like which one wins. I think it's so much more likely for a new pack to win because they have more expensive cards in a new pack than they do in like a vintage pack. It's kind of crazy. You know, if you're opening like Age of Overlord versus like Pharoah Servant original, it's like Age of Overlord probably gets you more value, which is pretty wild because they cost, even though they do cost a lot, don't cost as much as Pharoah Servant. All right, Type Zero Magic Crusher. We got the Twin Headed Fire Dragon. Two dragons fused as one from the effects of the Big Bang. Wow, okay. Invitation to a dark sleep. Mystic Probe. I don't know if I've ever read that. We have Dismissal Verm. It's a good thing. My mom didn't read that back in the day. I wouldn't have been able to play Yukio.  Very cool. Okay, Extreme Victory First Edition. Let's see what we can get. We have Mech Timed Blast. Man, it has been not a great opening so far. I'm not going to lie. It's been pretty rough. We have Skell. We have Elder. We have TGX-1, HL, Six-Style, Dual-Wheeled. Mech Lord Army of the Grinnell. Glad to be Tigerious. Tigerious. Okay. That puts us that part of the duelist. We have One-Pull. One-Pull. Not awesome. Not awesome in terms of foil pulls. Our ratios are not great. Okay, let's see what we should get. Normally out of an original pack, we'd probably get like two foils out of 10 packs. Maybe three if we were lucky. Power of the Dual is the same thing. And then probably a little bit more out of Extreme Victory. So we'll see if we get there. So maybe like six to seven foils, total out of these 30 packs. We have Wonder Garage. We have Alien Gray. Oh, Cosmic Orangangiel. Nothing to owe about. That was pretty irrelevant, to be honest. Farrow Servant. Come on. Maybe you're just holding all the good ones for the end. Maybe you're just saving it all for the end. Please. Driving snow like in Lord of the Rings. We have Harpy's brother. Yeah, the original. We have Rain of Mercy. Type-Zero Magic Crusher. Rooks and Special. Also, the forgotten. Gust. Insect Barrier. Spike Bot. And a Red Moon Baby. We are getting absolutely destroyed right now. This is not going so well. Extreme Victory, First Ed. Two of these are First Ed, and one is Unlimited. But if we had First Ed, Farrow Servant, it would be a lot different. So that's why we're doing Unlimited. We have, I don't have any First Ed right now. We have Runaway, Karakuri. We have Stapling. TGX 300. Rooks and Special. Axe Dragonate. Lancer Lindworm. Mechlord Army of Wazel. Resolute Mechlord. Not the, not the desk. Not the Resolute Desk. The Army. And, okay. Purple. I like, I like that. Out of Extreme Victory. I think they have a, don't they have Nios Knight in this set? Ulti? That'd be pretty amazing. And the Gladiator Beast. Esadari. All right. That also I think might come in Ulti. That's pretty amazing. This is the generic Gladiator Beast 2500. Just two Gladiator Beast monsters make it. So pretty easy to make. Pretty awesome. Doesn't have an effect to like, to exit, you know? It's like, it comes in as a fusion. Usually a lot of them, they can like attack and swap back out or whatever. This one can't. So once you make this guy, he's kind of on the field and it's not great because in Gladiator Beast, you want to be like swapping constantly, getting the effects. He's not great for that. Okay. Power of the Dual List. We'll take it though. An Ultra Rare, a Super and an Ultra, both from Extreme Victory. So those got to be at least a dollar. So they got to be in first. I don't think any of the comments we pulled have been very crazy. So it's looking like, you know, something to zero to zero. We have Miracle Jurassic. We have Crop Circles. Fake Hero. Alien Hunter. Destiny Hero for your monger. We have the Accord Connection Zone. Fossil Excavation. Alien Gray. And can we get an Ulti, please? Okay, Cosmogor and Gengel. Again, these old packs. And I'm doing so great. So it's showing like, this isn't even a new pack, but Extreme Victory. Just the newer is doing better. Probably going to do a video about brand new packs versus original like old stuff and see who wins. If you want to see that, make sure you let me know. One, two, three, four in the comments. Make sure you subscribe to the channel. Hit that bell for notifications when I post. We have minor goblet official. Ground Collapse. We have Light of Intervention. Rooks and Special Regulation of the Trime. Skull Mariner. Cold Wave. Gamble. And we have Morphing Jar number two. Morphing Jar number one would be better. You know, just regular morphing jar. Though he doesn't come in the set, but if he did, you know, randomly be a cool error. Extreme Victory. Let's keep it going. We have a, let's get a Ghost Shared. Ghost Shared or Tour Guide. We have Resonance Destruction. Mechler Army of Scale. Red Carpet. Meteorite. We have Contract with Octamira with TG Warwolf. Recipro Dragonfly. And the Ceiling Ceremony of Mokotan. Mokotan. Power of the Duelists. You could be crazy though. Give us something awesome. Ultras are hard to pull in here. They're even harder than Ulti. So why not pull an Ulti then? Blade Master. Common Soul. Destiny Mirage. V-Core Connection Zone. Fossil Exhibition. We've got Baby Servisores. Contact and Dasher. Hey, this could still be a dollar. It used to be a $15 common, but unfortunately not anymore. Oh, it's a rare. Is it? No, it's a rare. I don't know why I thought it was a common. I think it does have a common version somewhere, but this is not where. So yeah, more disappointment from Power of the Duelists. Pharaoh's Servant. All you need is one pull to really like get me excited because that means there's foils in here. Right now we don't know if there are. Grotto number two. We got Earthshaker at Mr. Volcano when he's fiery finger. We've got the Gradius. Guruchin Kuwagata. Souls of the Forgotten. Gust and we have a insight barrier and we have a shift. Oh, shift. These suck. Okay. Extreme victory. First edition. Extreme victory. You've done everything. You've done everything that like maybe Dasher is a cheap, you know, rare. I'm not cheap rare, expensive rare. Mech Time Blast has been pretty rough. TG Catapult Cannon or Dragon. No, the can is TG Catapult Cannon. Something else. Maybe I'm thinking of something else. Landtron. We have TG1, EM1, Minstrelseeker, Necro Defender. And we have, okay. Synchro. Could be a ghost. Could be an ulti. Here we go. Ooh, Power Gladiator. Not Gladius Gladiator. Gladiator. The TG Power Gladiator. Super rare. We'll take it. It's a TG card. I mean, extreme victory is carrying hardcore. Which, you know, it's a battle. So they're not really trying to carry. They're trying to win. But first dead power of the duelist. Literally, you have been terrible.  You're not even down by that much, to be honest. Because 5Ds hasn't pulled like a crazy card or anything like that. Brainwashing beam. Come on. Let's just pull something crazy. Miracle Jurassic Ag. We have Mausoleum. We have Decoy-Royd. Desperate. Flying Saucer. Elemental Hero Nios. I mean, I'll take two of those. Wonder Garage. And finally, a super rare. Niospation. Dark Panther. All right. We have pulled another super rare. Finally, Power of the Duelist got something. I mean, that might be a dollar. Not totally sure. It might have counted. Pharaoh's Serving. You're literally sucking. You've done nothing the entire time. So it's time for you to step it up. Okay. We have Overdrive. Yeah. Put it into Overdrive, baby. Let's go. Major Riot. Let's get that Buster Blader. That's what I want. Wingweaver. We have Eye of Truth. Ruxen Special. Dokoroyeva. Darkbats. Insect imitation. Attack and receipt. That's what I feel like I'm getting destroyed right now. And yep. No, still getting destroyed. No minimum extermination. Not so hot. Extreme victory.  You got three foils. I mean, by far the best in terms of ratios. Just get a ghost rare. I mean, why not? Why wouldn't you get a ghost rare? It's not that hard. Just pull it. We have Boon of the Mechlord Emperor. Morph Tronix Stapland. We have Esper Girl. Ruxen Special. TG. Lancer Lenworm. Mechlord Army of Wazel. That is a card that was, I think, this was in Rage of Ra. Resolute Mechlord Army. The Mechlord of Fortress. And Morph Tronix Landron. Still several packs left. 30 old school packs in this video. Hopefully you guys have enjoyed it. Make sure you subscribe if you have. And let me know what else you want to see opened in the future. One, two, three, four. And I can try to make it happen. Make it fun. We have Rallis of Starburn. Make sure you give me some good suggestions. We have Ambulance Roid. Common Soul. This year of Blademaster. Fearmonger. Rescue Roid. A lot of Roids. We have Orbital Bombardment. Watch out. Black Terra. And we have Cyber Summon Blaster. Man, come on, pharaoh servant. Get at least a foil. Like, come on. Seriously. Okay. One, two, three, four. Get at least a foil. We have Mr. Volcano and his fiery finger. Gradius. Not Gradius's option. Just Gradius. We have Science Soldier. He's the soldier of science. Driving Snow. Armor Glass. Flame Champion. Respect play. Garuchinguagata. Okay. Maybe a trap card. What could a trap card be? Cease fire. There's a bunch of them. I can't even think. Oh, Chain Destruction. Ah! How can I forget about the biggest one? The Secret Rare Imperial Order. Let's go. That is beautiful. Okay. Finally, we pulled something and it was the Secret Rare. Very nice. Okay. Not a huge value card. Honestly, it might even be like $1 or even less. But for an original, like for TCG, it's not going to have the originals on there because it'll be mixed with 2017 reprints and everything. But that card specifically should be probably more than a dollar. It's sad because it's an original and so cheap, but I mean, it's still really amazing. Still an awesome pull. That's definitely showing up for Ferris Servant. That's good. Two packs left of each. One, two, three, four. Swap from the back right there. We have TGSX-1, a clock resonator. Psychic Reactor. We have Serene, Psychic Witch. We have Nanoshock. We have Fortress. TGGF Falcon. We have TGX-3DX-2. And she ends in Visor. That's another super rare. Very nice. I didn't even know at first that that was a super rare. Another one for Extreme Victory. A lot of low-end ones, but still nice. Okay, not Ferris Servant. Power of the Servant, if we were going to mix them together. Power of the Duelist. You've got one super. So you're officially in last in terms of good pull. You do have two Nios, but they're common, so it's pretty easy to pull. We have Blade Master. At least Nios is there though. Common Soul. We've got another Nios. Destiny Mirage. Moslem of the Emperor. D-Spirit. Wonder Garage. Alien Grey. A Synthetic Seraphim. And Cyclone Blade. These Power of the Duelist are not doing so hot. But this Ferro Servant could turn that around. Not first edition. But we'll take anything we can get. One, two, three, four. Come on, Buster Blader. That's what we want. We have Mystic Probe. Let's go back to back. After being like 0 for seven, we have Solomon's Law Book. Ruxen Special. DC Wear. Keys of Tie. His Little Finger. So we have Fire Finger. We've got Little Finger in the same set. Souls of the Forgotten. And no, not the guy from Game of Thrones. Gus. We have Insect Barrier. Spike Bot. And this looks like a rare to me. Yeah, it's shallow gray. For some reason, the borders on the rares do just look like rares. Sometimes I'm wrong, though. Sometimes they look like foils and they're not. Sometimes they look like rares and they're not. Last pack, Extreme Victory. If you guys enjoyed this video, don't forget to subscribe to the channel. Don't forget to turn on the notification bell to see when we're posting next, which will be at 12 p.m. Central every day. Basically, we have Reboot every day for like last 1,000 plus days. We have Art of the Blue. We have Mortronic Stapling. Power Up Adapter. ESP Amplifier. And if you're watching this and you haven't seen recent videos on the channel, make sure you go back and check them out. Because, you know, we've had some good openings recently. Pulled some really good stuff. There's a Buster Blaster. So we asked for a Buster Blader. We got Buster Blaster and the Mechlord Factory. Okay. So those were not terrible, but they weren't amazing. They're definitely beatable if we get something big, like an Ultimate Rare here. Or a good one. Power of the Duelist. 2006 set. Last pack Magic here. GX versus 5Ds versus the original. It hasn't been a very intense battle. It's been intense. It's just it's like a low-scoring football game. We have Decoy Red. Not a lot of scoring. We have Emperor. We have Jurassic Egg. Alien Skull. The Decoy Connection Zone. Destiny Hero. We have Rescue Royd. Orbital Embardment. And Ultimate Tyrano. Another Super. Okay. That's all we can get out of Power of the Duelist these days.  Which, I mean, to be fair, they're by far the easiest foils to get. Ultras are super hard to pull. Ulties are 1 and 12. So makes sense. Last pack Magic. Pharaoh Servant. Here we go. You can win, Originals. Just pull like Buster Blader. Or Thousand Eyes Restrict, of course. I haven't even mentioned that one today. One, two, three, four. That'd be huge. We have World's Suppression. We have Burning Land. Dark Fire Soldier Numero Dose. Bite Shoes. Gust. Insect Barrier. Spike Bots. Oh, Rucks and Special. Oh, Shift. Ah, Shift. These were terrible, terrible packs for the most part. But we got a few good bulls in there, so it wasn't completely awful. Shout out to Tomefo Show, Puffin Zidoo, Mernesto, Deanna, America Doitster, and another show, Ian Musso, Junior Barting, Robert F., Thomas McLean, Changelang, and Adelso Galcia Jr. Thank you guys for supporting the channel. I'll see you guys next time. Peace.


presentation by Adam Felsenfeld. I want to remind the council that before any Institute of NIH can publish a funding opportunity announcement that has a set-aside of funds attached to it, on our, for example, the underlying concept has to be approved in an open session. We always use the advisory council for concept clearance, so you guys know everything that's coming through the Institute. So Adam's going to give a presentation today. He's going to actually present five different activities that are all quite interrelated, and there's quite a bit of synergy among them. For that reason, we're proposing to take a single vote on the entire concept. And so this is for the human genomic genome reference program. OK, Adam? All right. And thank you, Rudy, and good afternoon. Before I begin, I hope you've all had a chance to look at the council materials, the written brief summary of the program. So yes, the human genome reference, as you know, has its origin in the human genome project. It serves as a coordinate system. And it is used for read mapping. And so essentially all human genome sequencing using short read technology relies on it. And it's a critical utility for genomics. The human genome reference, the human reference is currently maintained and improved by the genome reference consortium. The genome reference consortium also maintains mouse and zebrafish references. It is a collaboration of multiple groups who together maintain the genome reference. Support for the human reference comes from NHGRI to WashU and Nationwide Children's Hospital and others, and from the Wellcome Trust through Sanger and the European Bioinformatics Institute, and some from NCBI. NHGRI funding supports the maintenance and improvement of the human reference, including developing new reference versions, patches, responding to error reports, community outreach, and development of some tools for the use of the reference. NHGRI also supports two additional awards that produce high quality human genome assemblies to be added to the reference. And together all of these have been about $5 million total costs all combined at their peak. One of these is on an extension. Some of the others have been supplemented after May, but are going to be winding up at the end of this year. So for more than a year, we've been hearing about needs for the reference that are not being fully met or ideas for improving the reference. That includes the need to better serve growing and more ever more diverse set of scientific users spanning basic and clinical, various degrees of sophistication and expertise. There are challenges that different consortia have had in deciding which reference build to use, which update to use, that's a problem. We are collectively learning much more about human genomic variation. The reference needs to reflect this variation in order to avoid problems in downstream analyses that rely on the reference. Finally, including the additional variation that raises the challenge for the basic means of representing the reference. This challenge needs to be addressed in a way that encourages downstream use of the information. Based on this input, we held a conference call with about 65 members of the community in March 1. The meeting report is available in the council materials and there's a link that's included in the notes to this slide. There's several high-level conclusions from the meeting. That is, first being the reference does not adequately represent human variation, leading to a risk that downstream analyses may be biased due to failure of read mapping. More high-quality human genome assemblies from diverse populations should be added to the reference. The recommendation from that meeting was to start with 300 of them. Another recommendation was that a linear representation of the reference is not adequate, especially as we incorporate more and more diverse high-quality genome assemblies into the reference. We will need better ways of representing all that information. The alternative assembly or alternative path information that we do actually have in the current reference is underused for a variety of reasons. And overall, there's an opportunity to develop the reference into what participants call the pan genome, which in its simplest sense is just a collection of sequences that are together used as a reference. In the context of the discussion today, I want to stretch for an ideal, and that ideal would be that this would constitute enough genomes with enough diversity to be as representative as possible and ideally to maximize the chance that any new sequenced experimental or patient genome readily and fully mappable to the reference. This program will comprise five different components, and they are based on those recommendations almost directly. So the first, human genome reference center, second, high-quality reference genomes, third, research and development for reference representations, fourth, research and development for comprehensive genome sequencing, fifth, informatics tools for the pan genome. I'll go through each of these in turn. So the first is the human genome reference center. This first component will be a central group that works to maintain, update, release, and serve to the community the human genome reference. So they'll construct and maintain and release new reference versions. They'll receive and resolve error reports. They will promote and adopt state-of-the-art representations that include alternative haplotypes, alternative haplotype information, and provide basic tools for the community use of that information. They will undertake community outreach and training and act as an aggregator of informatics tools created by the community for use of the reference. They will also serve as a coordinating center for the entire consortium. They will work with other program members to identify a framework for pan genome implementation. Not on the slide, this group will also work with the program and the larger scientific community to prioritize sample choice and develop quality standards for new high-quality genome assemblies. They will identify and respond to diverse community needs across the clinical and basic genomics communities. They will liaise with other resources that represent human genomic sequence and variation or that provide and or that provide human, provide reference resources for human and other organisms. The Human Genome Reference Center is also expected to integrate fully with the Genome Reference Consortium and other international efforts that also have responsibility for providing references. We are proposing this activity as a cooperative agreement. I think that's appropriate given the complexity and the ongoing need for probably for change and making big decisions during the course of the program. We are proposing it at $2.5 million total cost per year for five years. We anticipate making one award. The second component will be high-quality genomes. This follows directly from the March conference call, recommendation that we need to add more genomes. The exact right number was not stated and I think that actually the exact right number and the constituent populations they come from is an interesting scientific question that needs to be addressed on an ongoing basis for the consortium but the meeting participants thought that at least 300 would be needed to begin with. They will begin with sequencing diverse samples starting with 1,000 genome samples which are both reasonably diverse and also importantly consented appropriately for this application. They will coordinate consent and collection of new samples if that's needed during the course of the program. They will provide capacity to help resolve error reports to component one if needed. It is important to note that a number of things we do expect to change over the course of the program including the technologies will change, the cost of high-quality genomes will change, the quality requirements probably need some refinement, the optimal number of genomes is not known, the needed diversity needs to be given quite a lot of thought, all that has to be assessed over the course of the program and any of those things could change the funding requirements. But initially we expect that this component will require three and a half million dollars a year and five years and we anticipate here also making a single award. This component will need to work closely with the others in this concept especially around the issues listed in this bullet point and it is proposed as a cooperative agreement. The third component is research and development for reference representations. During the March web meeting, participants strongly converged on the need for a reference that faithfully and usefully represents sequences from diverse apple types and populations. Currently the linear genome reference has been extended to include alternative paths that are added on top of the standard reference sequence to show some population-based variation but there's a need for more advanced representations such as graph representations. So that's what this group would do, what these groups would do. We expect that they will use efficient scalable methods that the results will be open source and a product that facilitates use and downstream tool development. We want them to help set benchmarks and standards for pendulum representations. Their products may well be adopted within the Human Genome Reference Consortium but also should be capable of standing on their own and they should be based on common standards. We're proposing this effort at one and a quarter million dollars total cost per year for three years, two to four awards. We're aware that the number of grantees proposed here is small, the amount of money, the amount, the funding amount is also small and that there may be those that are interested in this problem who might miss applying for the single receipt deadline. So we would also accept successful investigator initiated applications in this area and incorporate them into the discussions of the consortium. The fourth element is research and development for comprehensive genome sequencing. March meeting participants agree that the technologies available today are just adequate to the task, there's long read technologies and synthetic long read technologies but they also stress the need for additional technology development to address particularly difficult regions of the genome that can't be adequately resolved with methods that are available in the next year. So we proposed to call for applications that seek new or extended technology for high quality contiguous telomere to telomere phased human genome sequence. We anticipate that that will include integration of new technologies with existing approaches. We prefer generalizable approaches to comprehensively sequence genomes in these applications but we would accept ones that focus on specific difficult regions. And in the long term we're seeking applications that are striving for 10-fold improvement over the state of the art. This component clearly calls for long-term development. It's unlikely to be ready to implement in the next five years or at least in the next three years but even so these grantees will need to understand what the quality requirements are for references, what difficulties different user classes experience and so it's important to integrate them into the program. Unlike the other components of this concept this one will be funded or would be funded through the regular technology development program so that's investigator initiated R1s and R21s and SBIRs with our interest made known through a guide notice. The final component is informatics tools for the pan genome. This is aimed at making their genome reference easily usable for a range of clinical and basic researchers. Participants in the March web meeting noted that existing tools for use of the reference can be difficult to use, they can be difficult to find especially ones that use existing haplotype variation information. The pan genome is expected to support new types of analyses and enable new kinds of questions to be addressed that previously couldn't. So we're looking for proposals for analysis tools that are exemplars for use of emerging next generation representations. We want diverse applications considered so spanning clinical and basic across a range of specific uses and user communities. We want tools that are compatible across different reference representations and across different reference versions. We are looking for either new, completely new applications or ones that propose revisions or improvements of the existing high value tool kits. This is another situation where the number of people who could contribute to this is probably greater than we can fund with a single FOA at our proposed one and a quarter million dollars per year total costs, two to four awards. So applications in this area will also be appropriate as regular investigator initiated applications which could readily be integrated into the program as appropriate. And finally, the whole program will benefit from coordination with this component. For example, the tool developers need to know about the details of the implementation of reference representations. The whole consortium needs to maintain an awareness of the uses and the users of the reference. And before I end and get to discussion, I want to thank Heidi for her work on components three and five and Mike for his work on component four. Carolyn, for her comments, my DGC colleagues, especially Lisa and Taylor Lynn and Terry Minoglio for a detailed set of comments on an earlier version. So with that, we go to discussion. Now, usually for concept clearances, we don't assign discussants, but I did talk to Carol a bit a couple of weeks ago about this and hope that she can start off the discussions. Yeah, and one of the things we talked about was the challenge of having the R and D for reference representations and the informatics for the pan genome like simultaneous because you kind of need one before you can fully develop the other. But I, and Adam, maybe you wanted to say a few words on your response to that discussion. Yeah, so thanks for reminding me. So you may remember all the way, you may remember earlier, I should just say, we already have $5 million identified for this in 2019. We would have to find an additional $5 million to bring it up to the total of $10 million in 2020. And that lag suggests a way of staging these. You'll also notice that in the concept proposals, that some of the tool development is a three-year grant and that means we'll have a chance to renew, renew the grants at some point. And also being able to accept R01s as part of the program and bring them into the program will afford another opportunity for the kind of nucleus to stabilize so people know what they're planning against. Yeah, and one of my other, one of the other things we discussed was the idea about how to integrate the R01s that might come in separate from this call into this whole program. And I think your approach to doing that will be appropriate because there are gonna be people that are developing the informatics tools and maybe even some of the new ways of doing reference representations that may not be funded under the U mechanism. But as long as there's a way to bring those research projects into the fold, I think it will be better for the overall plan and the deliverables. Yeah, I agree. And I think that again, if there's some solid notion, some solid notion of what they're planning against, it will make that more productive. At the same time, I think we do need, we thought about a model where it was just all R1s, but I think we need a nucleus with some cooperative agreements because that you can ask for a commitment to collaborate very closely. Sharon? I think this is an extremely important topic and I agree with the language that there are these tools out there and people don't know how to use them. So I think when you, assuming this past, when you write the actual announcements, I think it would be important to think about how you're distinguishing the third one from the fifth one because I'm not really clear on that because a lot of the tools are representation tools. So I think maybe some clarification of, I could imagine people going, I'm not sure which of these to apply for, especially because they're multiple in both. So I think that could create some confusion. I do also think it'd be interesting whether there is going to be any language around, there's more and more exploration of whole genome sequencing and clinical settings and whether there will be some exploration around tools for clinical representation of clinical reporting of genomes in addition to kind of the research setting. Yeah, I mean we, this is one reason why it's really important to, another reason why it's really important to bring R01s into this because they're a couple of major topics like that that we want the tools to be able to cover and if we can only fund two to four, we're limited. So yeah, we need to make that clear. Heidi, do you have a response about the differences between the reference representations and the informatics tools? Yeah. Partly what we're doing is trying to make a strong emphasis on open science engineering techniques. And so we expect these tools to be engineered so that they're modular and that they're interoperable and connectable in more powerful ways. I think we'll be requiring a higher level of engineering and how they're developed. So representation, it's a lower level concept and it can be isolated, it can be the foundation for really, really diverse types of tools. And ideally that's how it would work. And then we envision applications being built on top of that that would take it, solve the last mile problem of going from that core representation to users to open up this area in ways where it hasn't really been before. Does that make sense? It makes sense. I'm just putting on my kind of investigator hat and you can imagine people really trying to figure, I just think you're gonna have to have a very clear description about how each group of grants are gonna be reviewed. Because frankly, that's what people are gonna focus in on. And so I would just be pretty clear in the RFA or what are the clear components of review for people to figure out which one they should apply to. Because a lot of the representation is for end users. And so I mean, I understand the differences. I just think the wording's gonna have to be pretty clear or you're gonna get lots of emails from people trying to sort it out. Thank you. Jay, did you have a comment? Yeah, so I love the concept and on the whole I love the way you've structured it. I think this is overall terrific. I just had a couple suggestions or comments. So one would be in the tech dev category, right? So I mean, like you're saying, it's easily can be latched on to the sequencing tech dev program, but it still feels like in the spirit of what you're trying to do in this RFA, there's still a big gap here, which is that we still don't have a long reads. You can get it quote unmappable sequences, but we still can't do the same thing for epigenetic signatures like histone marks and ventilation and so on and so forth. And so there's still pretty big gaps and you've been getting any cell line where we have even a basic set of histone marks across the full sequence. And obviously the technology is not there yet, but you could imagine lumping that in is another kind of activity in the fourth one. And then I don't know, you said it was aiming for 350, is that right? For the... Yeah, it's 300 to 350, it's hard to tell. And that...  Is that a... Yeah, so what's being done, what's being done this way, the two applications that I mentioned already that have been supplemented, they're together working on, ultimately be 15 or 16 new human assemblies. My suspicion is, I don't know for sure, my suspicion is some of those are gonna be higher quality than we, than this particular application. They're humans or primates? Human. And then there's about five or six primate genomes, non-human primate genomes in there. And yeah, so that's what's kind of... At least we're thinking about whether devoting some of those 350 to... It seems like getting a diverse... Obviously getting diverse humans more diverse than 1,000 genomes is something you've already thought about and are encouraging, but also knocking out a few primates while you're at it probably would help. And then if there's some rational way of thinking about that. And then the other one would be, I know there have been discussions in code about how to get high quality sequences for the major cell lines. And it seems like you've already built this capacity and the informatics and everything, you might as well knock out all the... Devote 5% of that capacity to clicking off all those major cell lines as well at that same quality, but... Yeah, I mean, we certainly could. How are the cell lines consented? Do you mean for inclusion and references or do you mean because it's just very high value for that project? I mean inclusion and references and because they're very high value. I assume that everything that the code is doing has been consented enough that we're doing it all through. Okay, I'll check with my colleagues. Yeah. Any other comments or questions? Are there any application restrictions? Could one PI apply to all five of these? Yeah, I think they could. I mean, I don't see any reason to say to limit institutions to just one of these. The awarded multiple, that does apply. I don't think there's anything that restricts that from happening. Would that be advantageous to the program overall or not? There are levels of consideration here without applying it to this particular circumstance yet. We have the option of saying wouldn't make two awards to the same institution. We could just say could, but would have to be demonstrably independent of each other and things like that. Do you, are you, it sounds like you may have a concern with the idea of the same institution getting two of these. Is there, is it, is any particular? Okay. The original question wasn't an institution. It was PI, right? So I think that's what you were asked at. I'm not that an institution couldn't submit, but could the same person submit? So in the high quality sequencing that was already done that ended in 2018, what were the numbers of genomes that were done and what was the cost? Right, so when these, when the very high quality genomes were started, the aim was not for maximum efficiency for utility in a reference. The aim was for perfection. As close to perfection as current methods would get. So the platinum, those platinum genomes initially were over $100,000 each as compared to on the order of at the same, at the time that that was initiated a couple thousand dollars or $3,000 for a short read, good quality assembly. Now that's of course much cheaper. The basis that I am using to estimate what the component two needs is based on my current understanding of a high quality reference that has a reasonably high quality reference that uses long reads. And that's about $20,000 to $50,000 total cost per genome. Depending on who you ask and depending on exactly what goes into it. So that's where I think things are. I do think for this they will need to be an initial discussion about specifications. There are discussions about specs going on in other programs. So the genome 10K vertebrate genome project has already gone through them. They developed a specification for their references. So something like that will have to begin this program. You guys are getting soft. Any other questions for Adam? Okay, can I get a motion to approve the concept in a second? All in favor? Any opposed? Any abstentions? Thank you very much and thank you Adam. Thank you. Jerry.


That looks like enough padding. Can you slow down? Why don't you worry about your part of the plan and I'll worry about mine. Let's go over our parts one more time. Everything has to go according to plan. No mess ups this time. You're up first. Well, Donnie and Leo get to their places. I'll be down here and Mikey, you go climb a lot of stairs. All right, enough chit chat. Everyone set your columns to channel four. All right, let's move. Stay frosty up there. Eagle has landed. Okay, you know what to do from here. Butterfingers. Hey, darling, let me help you with that. He sings. Darling moist towelettes. Of course, darling.  Catch the game last night? Hi, I'm in, baby. 20 seconds. Oh, yeah.  OK, double sweep. Oh, yeah, boss. I'm here. OK, well, Mr. Lemmings is entering the elevator now. So do your thing. OK, boss. OK, I'm on the fourth floor. Where the heck is Raphael? He's supposed to be on the phone. How'd you get up here so fast? Rapper Jack! OK, boss. He's like a fly stuck in one of those plants at each stake. Yeah. Sonneto. La Palma lock cabinet in the elevator. Oh, I really didn't know that. Did you hear that? Must just be my imagination. Leo. Leo. Mikey, well, Leo is unresponsive. I fear we may have to switch to plan B. Everyone get ready, just in case. Yeah, plan B. Guys, guys, wait. I got this. Finish the job. Done it again. Class, see, I forgot my cell phone, and I got stuck in the elevator for the third time this week. I guess I'm going to have to put in another help ticket. All right, well, I believe we were talking about our class projects that are due. So let's talk about those real quick. Well, well, well, what do we got here? Not only did you not have your class project in here on time, but oh, well, I see you's here. OK, then. I guess you're off the hook. Please go ahead and have your seat. Here's my cell phone. OK, class. Well, I was just about to say, being the wonderful teacher I am, I have decided that I'm going to help you out just a little bit. And what we're going to do, instead of they'll have to do from last week, I'm going to change it and make it so that it's due the following week. That way, you can use your time more wisely.


A mobile financial services have tripled in Nigeria and other sorts of hermaphrodite countries in the last six years, according to a new report by Ericsson. The Consumer and Market Inside report titled Mobile Financial Services on the Right revealed that nearly half of all consumers in SSA use mobile financial services in 2021, that is more than three-four would increase in the last six years. The report also highlighted the impact that the COVID-19 pandemic on mobile financial services uptake, with 54% of consumers saying that they use mobile financial services transactions more now. We will explore the framework for financial infusion gains with a focus on mobile operations on the show today. Welcome to Business Insight and Plus TV Africa. I am Justin, at Pavilion. All right, electricity generation, scrapped agencies in the petroleum sector Africa's economic growth and poultry farming are rounded up business headlines for this week. Here are the highlights. Power generation companies in Nigeria have said they have suffered a loss of 1.66 trillion in seven years as a result of non-payment for deemed capacity. The Executive Secretary Association of Power Generation Companies, the umbrella body for the Gensco. Dr Joy Ogaji disclosed this on a stakeholders meeting on the regulator's monitoring program on electricity, organized by Hulay Showing Cast Center for Investigative Journalism. Ogaji said the available generation capacity dropped to 6,192.34 megawatts this year from 7,792.51 megawatt in 2020, while the average generation capacity rose to 4,120.96 megawatt from 4,050.07 megawatts. The federal government is to retain the about 1,500 employees of the defunct department of petroleum resources, petroleum products prize in regulatory agency and petroleum equalization fund. Many staff stayed for petroleum resources. Timi Parasilva said on Wednesday that no staff of the scrapped agencies would be sacked. He disclosed this while during meetings with employees of the affected organizations in Abuja. The International Monetary Fund IMF has projected a 3.7% growth rate for Sub-Saharan Africa in 2021. The director African Department of the Fund, Abebe Selessia, disclosed this during a press briefing on October regional economic outlook for Sub-Saharan Africa in Washington on Thursday. He said the fund estimates that the Sub-Saharan Africa's economy will grow by 3.7% in 2021 and 3.8% in 2022. The recovery supported by favorable external conditions on trade and commodity prizes. The prices of soybeans and maize, the basic grains in poultry production have increased by about 300% and 170% respectively, while granting the collapse of many poultry farms across the country. The Director General, Poultry Association of Nigeria, Onalo Aqours said this in an interview with a correspondent. Aqours said the worst-hit farms were those operated by small-scale poultry farmers, as most dealers in this category had closed shop due to their inability to purchase feeds. He said the cost of production in poultry farming was about 80% grain-based and these grains were maize and soybeans. President Richard Tide Edwin says the Nigeria-Turkey trade volume will be expanded by $5 billion immediately to further boost socioeconomic ties between the two countries. Edwin stated this when he addressed newsmen at the end of a closed-store bilateral meeting with President Mohamed Abu-Hari at the State House Abu-Jeran Wednesday. The President, who spoke through an interpreter, expressed the hope that the relations between the two nations would be further developed on the basis of win-win situation, in the basis of mutual respect. The question right now is how do you ensure sanity and, of course, to ensure that the practitioners of course and the people who patronize this service get value for money? Yes, actually when it started then there were some measures but we're not so keen but at a point in time people looked at it and said, ah I want to start this business so but in a way we are also trying to work in line with CBN and some other regulatory bodies whereby we can bring sanity into the business so that people won't fall victim or let me say the consumers won't fall victim of some agents who are not actually supposed to be in the business. As much as possible let's try and get some sort of differentiation between the mobile money agents, the operators because I know there are different categories in of operators in this particular business now so just who falls in the category of an agent or an operator or just how or is it that it's like it's an old commerce offense or just how does it work? Let me just, we have mobile money operators and we have mobile money agents. Mobile money operators are the licensed companies licensed by the Central by Central Nigeria to recruit mobile money agents. So the operators recruit the agents? So the agents act in that capacity for the for the mobile money operator. Okay so the mobile money operators are the big names we hear say the PAGA and the other ones money points money points and of course you know okay fine so where do you categorize those who under umbrellas and then of course kiosks? They are also mobile money agents. The agents? Yes. Okay. Do you not have licensed agents or just anyone can be agent even if they are not under any particular operator? There is no way you wouldn't be an under any operator. So you have to? You have to. So invariably I'm just trying to get a clear picture that for instance I am fresh out of school you know and I've not been able to get a job and I feel that I can maybe be self-employed and I have seen that there is an influx and a growth of agencies of you know mobile operation in Nigeria generally so all I need to do basically in my head I'm thinking that I just need to get a kiosk and get a maybe a POS mission. Do I need to go through a mobile operator or just how do I need or do I need to go through the banks themselves? Okay well the banks some of some of the banks too already have these licenses of course yeah okay to get to onboard. Okay banks are also operators? Yes some banks not all banks. Oh I see. So but mobile money operators are actually different they are not banks they started it they started it banks came into it so like you said if I just gradated and because I want to start something I want to be an entrepreneur everything you want to come into the business one you must still liars with a mobile money operator but these terms and conditions will be spelled out for you. These terms and these conditions are the rigorous or is it something that could actually you know be flowed away with that and something you could just deal with easily and of course and not have any issues? Yes it's a CBN organized entity business you cannot just fall into it without the be the necessary documentation. On the part of the agency? Yes on the part of the agent before you can become before you can become an agent. Okay. The necessary things is like your BVN is necessary would be would be requested for your NIN everything must be done your documentation and you must sign the agreement they will give you an agreement to sign. You signed with the operators? Yes you signed with the operators.  Yes there is a capital for them the way it is for banks. There is a capital for mobile money. Care to share. Care to share with us. Actually I cannot remember that now but for you to be mobile money operator you have your initial capital the capital given to you by CBN. Okay so how do we ensure sanity? I know I've asked that before but just to be clear because from all indications I just read not so long ago that the federal government through the Ministry of Humanitarian Affairs Disaster Management and Social Development announced the launch of a mobile money agent program and the commencement of training for 1,850 beneficiaries in Nigeria. Let us talk about that for just one minute you know because I feel that there is a need to you know orientate you know these agents because some of them they don't really know the vastness of this particular you know business because to them it's just about a maybe withdrawal, depositing and transfers you know so just how far would you think this particular training would go and to take that from that particular place what more training could be done because the federal government alone cannot do all of it. Yes for something like this 1,050 they want to train like it's a plus but the 10 is this we are also looking at it even from the association and even organizationally differently that which there are some things that needs to be done so that some people we only want to benefit from things like this they don't have a pure heart. How do you mean they want to benefit and don't have a pure heart? Yes some people just take the federal government because they know they will be paid some money. Okay because they are just going into it because of what they could get not because they actually need the training itself. Yes they don't need it they only let me just go there and after that some people will be there after the training they might not even have a flare for the business. They say I don't like it because by the time you go for the training I conducted I was one of the facilitators in one training of recent when I said so when I told people about some the pros and cons in the business some people were like wow can I continue this thing? Okay fine glad you've mentioned pros and cons because a lot of people you know they just see only the pros as it were they feel that the way you need is just get maybe at least 109 for each transaction that you do but then what are some of the hazards you know involved in this particular business? Yes some of the hazards involved one is that it's it's not a corporate entity I can start the business and employ anybody not like the corporate entity okay the organization I work for I sign an agreement yes so if in any at any time I embezzle funds it will get me they know where to go they have your information yes but most people will start the business you bring in a sales boy a sales girl to man the place for you at the end of the day risk your money your capital I have a lot of reports of such and they cannot even treat them where they are aside that we also have a major the major fact problems we have there now is the problems of most customers go to the bank to report transactions that were approved whereby they were given they were paid money okay the transaction was successful at the end of the day the customer goes to the bank to report that this thing was not successful okay and most times banks will just automatically debits just like when you've done your own investigation yes it happens like that because they believe that the customer that came so how do you how do you protect you know your agents I know they have several I don't know I know of one exactly association I know of this I'm back and all of that you know so is it just you know the only recognized association you know to cater to all of the issues in the particular sector sub-sector as it is now because if there are issues of them I am being an agent getting debited when they are they there's not being too far or investigation on the part of the bank I mean I'm running at the loss I should have some sort of interest and maybe an organization protecting me yes actually I'm presently I'm the chief attorney officer of Amban legal state okay we are trying our best possible to make sure that agents coin are into are brought into this association and we are trying our best possible to see that the association as they say not because not because we have seen all these things happening we have a lot of cases EFCC cases SFU cases police cases agents are customers at times we won't go and rest and agents and take them to the police I see I went there to make a withdrawal of 100,000 era I was debited it not give me money at the end of the police we still arrested the agents if it takes for you to even explain to the police do we want some of them will tell you that give that money it's manifest after paying the man case won't be followed up thoroughly but the decision is actually working on things like that let us see you want to get a lot of support from the up the then we say the regulators okay that's the CBN CBN we want to get you're going to at least everybody so that at least when an agent has an issue we should be able to trash it out okay let's talk about the future as we run from this particular discussion let's talk about the future of mobile money you know from what happened so it goes beyond cash withdrawals cash deposit and of course you know transfers you know just where do you see you know in the next five years do you see a situation where there'll be more sanity and of course there'll be better organization yes but it's good yeah there'll be more sanity and better organization because we we have seen the pros we have seen the problems when it started actually when it started it was unlike everybody wanted it I remember when we started then the first customer that came to my outlet asked me would this money go down to transfer in your place you understand but now everybody has seen the the the the the that this thing is not forced so and most people just want to come into it to do it and mind you because the p o s ever look at the p o s it's not really p o s we don't call it p o s we call it mobile money agents everybody call it p o s business p o s agents it's not just p o s agents now people most people just they want to go when the government started or when this started this cashless policy we brought the that was when this thing came we have the merchant p o s and we have the mobile money agent p o s but unfortunately a lot of things are coming through it whereby even my chance so there's a big future there's a big opportunity yes potential yes for this particular yes there is a very vast one for this sector all right I wish we had much time or more time to discuss and further because there's a whole lot of interest in things you know happening in this particular industry when we talk about financial inclusion indeed we have to bring you on again and just talk about the development you know that are bound so far thank you so much yeah I'm grateful thanks all right we have been speaking with a mobile money you know a stakeholder and indeed like we have said there's a lot we can do from this particular sector and of course Cain de Olaynka is the coordinator money point Legos Ezon and he joined us on the show to look at all of the development and of course how far we can take this particular sector once again we say thank you for your thought and your input thank you very much all right we will conclude on housing development in Nigeria the federal government research state governments to harness the opportunities in the housing sector and recommit to its development most of walks in housing but but in the fashion of set this at the last day of a 10th annual meeting of the national council of lands and urban development in Legos we'll leave you with details of that particular report as put together by Jacinta Obuquo see you again next time I am Justin Acadone bye for now as the council concludes its annual meeting the stakeholders including commissioners permanent secretaries gathered to put together all the deliberations reached the conclusion of the meeting is no without the presence of the minister of works in housing Babatunde Fashola as he highlighted some of the strides achieved in the sector and what more is to be done the federal government is undertaking a national housing in all states except Legos and rivers which has not started and I want to clarify that it has not started in Legos and rivers because their land is unique this government has given us land in Legos but it is going to cost some money to landfill it and that would add to the cost of the construction I seek to persuade all members of this council to go back to our states to go and persuade our governors to recommit to housing development the host of the meeting governor Babajide Sonmulu pointed that his administration is poised to eradicating housing deficit in Legos state we're ensuring that we look at the costs of developing that will be able to utilize the full value of the land we need to be very smart you know with the kind of houses that we can build with the kind of model you know when we say to people if you don't need a four bedroom or a five bedroom stay with your two bedroom and ensure that you are efficient in your allocation and your utilization of space next is the council's communique which was read by the works in housing minister approved by council of proposals to reduce the maximum advanced rent payable with respect to housing for middle and working classes there shall houses to no more than one year to be further reduced by states who have achieved one year in order to make housing more accessible and affordable for Nigerians to rent the hope is that the resolutions made here will bring about policies that will enable inclusion and development in housing sector jacinta obu for plus tv africa


It's good to see you, and it's good of you to have us for Fourth of July. I think this is for our Fourth of July issue. Well, please do. One of the things, I mean, when the readers read this, you'll be front and center, I guess, on a big stage in New York celebrating the Fourth of July. People criticize the event as being overly commercialized, but I think you have proved more than anyone successful in using a symbolic event or a symbolic time to really help them in the leadership of the country. And you know how to use it to get across to America. A good feeling about itself. Would you like to comment about the day and what you hope to attain? Well, I think the pattern was almost set in the 200th anniversary and the parade of the tall ships and all, and I thought that the whole country did get a great boost out of that. And I don't see it really so much as being commercialized, this particular thing, since everything, well, there are no tax dollars paying for all of this great extravaganza that is being paid for by the people. Have you been to the Statue of Liberty as a private citizen ever? I have never been to it, and my first time to ever see it was an experience I do remember. I guess I was a little surprised myself at the kind of goosebumps feeling. 1948, I had gone to England to make a picture, and I was there over four months and came back on the Queen Mary and had, believe it or not, never seen the Statue of Liberty. And it was a very early morning arrival of the Queen Mary, and I was surprised at my inner feelings because at four o'clock in the morning I made sure that I got up and was at the rail. I wanted to see the lady, and we came into the harbor. That's good. On a tougher issue, the summit, when we came out of the summit last November, there were reasonably warm feelings, but your actions have been increasingly tougher towards Mr. Gorbachev and the Soviet Union. And I'm basically wondering, do you have a new assessment of him since that time? No, and as a matter of fact, I have tried to avoid any personal criticism of him, although I've been realistic with regard to some of the things that have happened since then. The failure for us to move forward in real negotiations on arms reductions when both of us have made the statement, he has, and I accept his word, that he wants and would like an eventual elimination of nuclear weapons. Well, this has been my goal from long before I got here, and I really believe in that very much. But then the proposals are made, and we put them in the hands of our negotiators in Geneva, and nothing happens to really enter into the kind of negotiations that I experienced once as a negotiator for a number of years in labor relations, that they've made a proposal. You accept some, but have some difference on others. You come back with yours, they come back, and you finally reach a meeting point. Do you think he bears the U.S., Mr. Gorbachev, bears the U.S., or you personally, any ill will? No, I think that, like so many there, he subscribes to some of the beliefs and the propaganda that have been prevalent in their media about us and doesn't understand our system, and he has never seen our country, and this was one of the reasons why I hastened to invite him on the first day we met in Geneva to have the next meeting here, and he accepted. And I think that he, I think he still does want to, want such a meeting. I also have to believe that maybe we were a little too optimistic about how quickly he could come in after these last several years of what they've been through and establish a new administration. I wanted to ask you a question about spies, Mr. Reagan. In this year of 1986, we're prosecuting more than any time in the history of the Republic, and they've taken our lives, our secrets, our technology worth billions of dollars. Do you think your administration should stop treating these people as white-collar criminals and start treating them as traitors as we did during the era of the Rosenbergs? Well, if we're talking about those who have been arrested as spies here, I think that is it. They are being prosecuted as spies with tremendously heavy penalties if they're found guilty. Oh, Mr. Reagan, I visited some of those prisons, and they're, you know, they're not bad. I'm talking about during the time of the Rosenberg administration, we treated them as traitors. We had death penalties. How do you feel about this, our secrets, I think? Well, I'm not a lawyer, and so I don't know where the proviso comes for asking for the death penalty, but obviously they are traitors, and maybe it's a difference between spying and wartime in which you have caused the death of people. As I say, not being a lawyer, I don't know how that comes about as to what the penalties are, but I know that there are very severe penalties that are being talked about.  Well, I happen to be supportive of the death penalty, but I also, as I say, I'm not aware that our law is provided for such things as this peacetime spying. I'm quite sure that in wartime, yes, the lending of comfort and aid to the enemy and the spying for the end, then we know that that penalty applies. But we allow them to cop pleas now, and they do sit in, I mean, in my own magazine, we had Walker explaining how it was like a country club where he was imprisoned, and it seems like very, very lenient kind of punishment, and that's what I wonder about. Shouldn't these people, having what they've done, having, having what they've done, they're traitors, and shouldn't they be treated as traitors, and the U.S. government, you know, lawyers go into the courts and make this known? Yes, but isn't this true that for a great many years past, we have had a kind of liberal philosophy in this country which did tend to coddle all kinds of criminals, and maybe this is part of it, and the constant assailing of prison conditions as being inhumane in our country, and therefore they must be improved. Isn't this a... But can't you make the difference? If you say to your government lawyers, you know, I don't want these people to go to a country club prison. Can you make a change so that people understand that giving away these huge amounts of technology, you know, it's to make 25,000 so they can have an extra boat. It's not a good thing. I agree with you. I don't know exactly what the situation is as to where they would be. I'm quite sure that the federal prisons, the bulk of whose inmates are not people of this kind who have done something of this kind, but isn't it true that there has been a philosophy, a kind of soft-on-crime philosophy up and down in our country for a number of years now? But now you've been in office six years and I think you've changed people's attitudes about this. And I wonder if you weren't able to change the system a little too. Well, isn't confinement really the punishment itself? Should we follow the Gulag and say that we're not only going to imprison them, keep them confined, we're going to add discomfort and torture, denial of human rights on a larger scale than that. But I think there's a big difference between Alan Wood and the Gulag, but let's not... Your domestic policies aren't getting increasingly more conservative. And you spoke recently of third term. Do you ever feel now, with only two years left, that you have a short time to remake America as you wanted? And if you did have six years instead of four years, what would you expect to achieve that you don't have time to do now? I would be very much opposed to the idea of a six-year single term. No, I'm saying that if you were to run... You yourself, you have endorsed a third term even though you would not run for a third term. That's right. But if you had six years right now, which you don't, you only have two years, what would you want to achieve that you can't in this time? I'm going to try to achieve what we want in these two years remaining. And I have to tell you, I had the same experience as a governor. And many of our greatest gains, including probably the most comprehensive reform of welfare, ever attempted in this country, we got in my second term. I have never thought for one minute that I am going to suddenly sit back and say, I'm a lame duck and I can't get anything done. On the international scene, there is still, and we're working as hard as we can in the Middle East situation for what I had advocated quite earlier and that is to hopefully bring about negotiations to end the state of warfare that technically exists there between Israel and the Arab states of the matter of arms. I still believe that we should be on the road to the elimination of nuclear weapons. And back of this is SDI, our Strategic Defense Initiative, which I think could be a great help in bringing this about. And our efforts to pursue through succeeding summit meetings the beginning of arms reduction with the Soviet Union. And I think there's reason to hope there because the Soviet Union has some economic problems that have been aggravated by their tremendous military buildup. So I'm not thinking that they will suddenly change their spots or something, but I'm thinking they find it to their practical advantage to join in arms reduction. On the economics and the government side, the whole idea of federalism has been greatly advanced. We have a program in operation here and our administration aimed at a change in management procedures in government. And great progress has been made there. I can remember as a governor looking at some social programs of the federal government and actually finding out that it cost $2 to deliver $1 of help to a needy person. And this is the type of thing we're trying to change. We have vastly reduced the number of publications that the federal government puts out as well as made some healthy cuts in the number of personnel employed by government. All of these things right now, the tax reform idea. Is there one thing that you really hope to do coming in in 1981 that you feel you will not be able to achieve by the time you're doing so?  One, and I'm not giving up on them though. One is a constitutional amendment that would ban in the future deficit spending. Two is to give the president some prerogatives that most governors in the country have. And that is the right of line item veto. The federal government is one of the last remaining places where the legislature can sneak into a bill something that they know could not pass on its own, a spending measure and extravagance. But as a pet of theirs, whoever the individuals are promoting it, they want it. So they sneak it into a bill that is so essential that a president will have to sign that bill and get it. Now, 943 times in California in eight years, I vetoed such line item things and found that never once could the legislature, if that particular bill then had to be put up to be voted on by itself, they could never get the two-thirds majority to override my veto. And yet it took in my state two-thirds vote to pass the budget in the first place. But the same two-thirds would not vote for it if they had to stand up and do it publicly. Mr. President, if there was a constitutional amendment in effect right now that prevented deficit spending, and your administration certainly has had the largest deficit spending that we've known in the history of the country, how would you be running the government? Well, for one thing... What would you cut? Well, I can only tell you that just look back at the record of the cuts that I have not been able to obtain. All of this talk about this deficit being mine, the president can't spend a nickel. The Congress spends the money. Right now, and since our budgets and our first budget was the 1982 budget, we inherited the 81 budget, right now there would have been $207 billion less in federal spending if I had been given the things I started asking for in 1981, in cuts in various social spending, elimination of some programs that I don't think are the proper province of the federal government to begin with. I don't think the federal government should be running railroads and doing things of that kind in competition with the private sector. But many social reforms that not only some should be eliminated, but others that shouldn't be eliminated should be more properly aimed at the people of true need instead of setting a figure and then a minimum figure, let's say, and saying, well, everybody at this level and below is entitled to these various government programs. Do you expect that you would have spent as much on the military and would have cut some of themselves? There has been about, as I recall it now, about a $64 billion cut so far in what we had asked for in military. And that is the one place, the only place where the Congress has reduced anything in our budget that I have submitted, but they've increased over all in the domestic side. And yet to this day, our defense budget is only about 30% or less, running somewhere around 29%, 28% of the total federal budget. Now, back in an earlier day, you'll find that national defense was about 50% of the federal spending because that is the one thing that is the prime responsibility of the federal government, is the national security. But there's been, and not just with me, this goes back to FDR when he had his own Democratic Congress and yet they would deny him the things that he was asking for when the rest of the world was going up in flames before World War II, before we got into it, would deny him this. There's been a tendency in the part of Congress to think that a source for more money for pet projects can be found in taking it away from national defense. Let me ask you on the situation with the countries where you have a lot of Americans not saying we should not aid the countries. The majority of Americans say this. Do you think that sometimes American citizens don't know what's best for themselves in the country? And do you think that we as citizens are too faint of heart sometimes? I still think that the people of this country in their wisdom are the ones who are in charge. Government is by the people here, but I do think this also. Thomas Jefferson said, if the people have all the facts, the people will not make a mistake. But on a thing like Nicaragua, I have to say the people do not have all the facts. There has been a tremendously successful disinformation campaign, and yes, it has been helped along in many instances by the media that has portrayed the Sandinista government as something different than it is, and this goes also for the freedom fighters that they have been portrayed in a different light. We've been doing our utmost to try and get the truth to the people, and I think more and more people now do understand what we're trying to do. But if you run up against that and then you run up against a thing that is just so easy for people to think, well, wait a minute, I don't even know where Nicaragua is, what are we doing down there? Well, wasn't this the same type of thing that got us Cuba? You'll remember there were people telling us and voices in the media that said that George Washington or that Fidel Castro was the George Washington of Cuba.  And now we have benefited in one way by that that a million or so refugees fled Cuba to our country and they have become very fine and successful citizens. Let me ask you a lighter question. I think it should be considered lighter, Mr. President. Your son is about to go on the masthead of the playboys, my understanding. And I wonder in the light of the findings of the Attorney General's commission on pornography, is this a source of some embarrassment or amusement or whatever? No, I have read the first article that he did for that magazine. One of them I think was on the convention back in 1984 and the other one was on the Geneva summit. And I tell you, I have to say I was surprised and greatly gratified to find that he has his own writing style and I think does very well and I don't think he'll be indulging and he won't be writing pornographic material. Have you ever, you've obviously looked at a skin magazine since you've read his articles. Have you ever watched a blue movie and have you found them repugnant or? Well, I've never sought out or tried to run one of those movies that appear in those kinds of theaters or anything. No, as a matter of fact I have to tell you that and I'm not a prude or a blue nose but I have to tell you that I've not been very proud of some of the legitimate things that Hollywood is turning out these days. I thought back when we all observed the voluntary code. It wasn't censorship from outside. The motion picture industry set up its own code of what would not be on the screen and this had to do with language and it had to do with explicit sex and so forth and I think the pictures were better. For one thing I just object on the grounds of some of the rules of theater that are being violated. There's an oldest rule of theater is that you can't do anything on the stage or now on the screen that is as good as the audience's imagination and today we don't leave anything to the audience's imagination. Do you remember those wonderful scenes and so forth in which you could take the children they could be at the movie with you and then there would be that scene of the embrace and suddenly the camera pans over to an open window with the curtain blowing and the moon shining outside and you fade out on that but the audience takes care of that with their imagination and there's no embarrassment with their children and you don't have any embarrassment now of young Ron is in a brown envelope they're putting brown rappers on Playboy Well I could perhaps wish that he would find some more dignified sources because I think he's capable of it his writing is very good. That was one of the questions I wanted to ask you. Both your trusted aids and your own children have benefited financially by their closeness to you I wondered if sometimes you feel like a commodity Mr. President and No, not really You know there's no way they can escape that. On the other hand there are lots of disadvantages to being the kids of a president Well I wasn't just talking about the kids of the president I was talking about many White House aids that walk out the door and just by the perception of their closeness to you do very well I mean do you think the rules should be changed? That you are that's what I meant Let me point something out there about the type of people that you get in government most of the people that have come into our administration well I said it over and over again during the campaign. I didn't want people that wanted a job in government I wanted the kind of people so successful that they would have to make a sacrifice to serve and I'm surrounded by a great many that are in exactly that position Now I also know that in many of them, younger people, children growing up that are going to have to be educated and all there's a limit to how long they can stay at the government level of income when they know they can do better in the outside indeed many of them gave up much better incomes in the outside to come here and there comes a time and many times I've said in that chair when someone comes in and tells me they have to leave and they tell me why that they've now got a family problems income and so forth and they have to and I've said to them then look when you give me that as a reason there's no way I can try to persuade you to stay. I can't argue with that and to get down to rules and to start saying they can't go out and better themselves you know it's difficult enough already to get this kind of person to come in government. Things that have been passed that have borne out of past scandals or something in which an individual has to bear his entire personal holdings and so forth has to report every year on what he got for Christmas even from friends that they've been exchanging gifts for years it's the same thing holds true for a president you know. I wonder how do you go to somebody and say how much did that sweater cost you? I have to put it in the paper. Is that what you had to do with the Buckleys on the dog? With the Mr. and Mrs. Buckley when they gave you racks? Yes, anything that's a gift has got to be we have to we have to report it but I think this that in order to get that kind of person don't make it more difficult than it is and I I would think that maybe there could be a review sometimes of some of the things that are almost insulting that we impose on people before they can come to government. But don't you think for instance that Mr. Dever the Canadian government really probably thought they could get a good hearing, a better hearing because he had worked for you and is that is that a good thing? I don't mean to sort of peg him is it a good thing when somebody knows that they have influence with you or at least a hearing with you? I think that's much less of why they hire than it is the knowledge that this individual knows his way around Washington and knows the situation, knows the things that are impossible in our government to do, knows the things that are possible can advise them as to this could not this thing you're asking just cannot be done under the laws and so forth of the government. I think there's much more of that than any idea that somehow an individual can come in here and lean on a president any president and say hey do this for me I can't think of a president that would do those things and certainly no one in this administration have ever ever tried to do anything of that kind with me. Mr. President on a stranger level in the Washington Times on Friday I read a story that a psychic from the Midwest from Chicago had written a letter to you predicting the destruction of the space shuttle and even went into talking about the O-rings and NASA the letter has been forwarded to NASA and they're taking it very seriously I was wondering do you think psychics ever make sound predictions and have you ever used the services of a psychic? No, but I have to tell you this It's my UFO question I find it difficult I didn't know about this particular case you're talking about Fascinating, no they're good I find it difficult to write them off entirely as a matter of fact the scriptures say that there will be such people the Bible has even referred to that but the reason I'm saying this is I know of instances where police in our country for example with the Boston Strangler and I know of one that I have met personally a little more than that in California that has been used and I know of an instance in which there were bodies missing in an airplane crash down near Palm Springs and this individual told the police that they couldn't find the wreckage had been able to find it he described a canyon and an overhang and that it was under there that it had gone under that overhang and from his description he'd never been there the all and when too many law enforcement agencies around the country have resorted to this I wanted to ask you the latest Gallup poll which I think was this last weekend showed that you had never been more popular to what degree do you think your ability to get straight to the American people on television and put out simply what you have in mind what you want to achieve get across those ideas to what degree is your popularity in that and can a person be elected president nowadays can not perform I mean in a show business sense on television to reach the American people well there's only one rule a show business that is employed in all of this and anyone can do it they don't have to be a performer but the one rule is every actor knows that when your face is up there on that screen in a close up if you don't believe the line you're speaking the audience will know it and won't believe it either and if somebody goes some people are better than others and I just wonder you believe in I think the American public believes in you when you get up in there I believe in them well now tell me what do you taking another television personality if I can what is your attitude of the evangelist I don't know have you ever watched him on television I've seen him now since this has been talked about and a few times on the news that he's been on the TV news and all and certainly he's much respected by his his following and those people who turn to him for their religious counsel but there's one thing that I must point out all this suddenly being raised and is this right or wrong for him or for religious people and all how come there was no he's not the first clergyman to run for president we had one in 1984 that sought the Democratic nomination and I have to wonder is the criticism now a little bit because this one is seeking the Republican nomination but no one should be barred from running for public office or holding public office on the basis of their previous occupation or profession oh I didn't mean it that I mean how do you see him as a figure and it didn't mean I didn't imply a criticism of this religious backing but how do you see him as a figure in the political arena of the Republican party well I'm quite sure that he is totally sincere in what he is what he is proposed doing and but would he give George Bush you know all I know is I can't comment on remember I'm the titular head of the party as long as I'm in this job and I therefore have to remain neutral in the inner party contests for primaries then when the party has made the decision the people in the party as to who should be the candidate I'll support them all out but I'm very hesitant to say anything that might be interpreted as a for or against but even behind the scenes you might not not even behind the scenes no you can't do that alright well basically we should ask we've gotten more letters about Lucky we're wondering we're wondering how she is and we've heard reports that Rex may be joining her because of the polling and talking no let me just say here and this will thank you you're going to give me a chance to clear something up Lucky was not exiled Lucky was always intended to go to the ranch and she's there she is the queen of the place there are five dogs and she is really taken over she's a giant now but that was what she was an outdoor dog and it was a kind of cruelty we had to keep her for a while until she reached a certain age and was still undergoing training here but you know to have to take her out on the leash as they did out in the lawn there and walk her around that was not for her and when we go to the ranch out there 688 acres of meadowland forest everything that you want and running free and that's where she was always intended to go now Rex is an entirely different dog Rex I think is probably happier in the house than out and so there's no hardship in having him here and then out in the lawn when we go to Camp David oh he has a great time running around there but Rex I think would be totally lost at the ranch Is he going to have to stay in Beverly Hills when you move back home? I think he would continue to be our home dog but really I mean from a standpoint of risk up there that's wild country and Rex with bob cats mountain lion ooh that's a terrible thing to look forward to 1988 better not come quickly for him for times every once in a while we have a bear that moves in and I've never seen the bear yet others people up there are so that's dog heaven for the other kind of dogs that we have are all outdoor dogs a husky and golden retriever things of that kind Mr. President and hilarious throwing us out and I just wanted to ask you one question to accompany this we would like to run your favorite picture of you and Mrs. Reagan do you have one favorite picture that was taken at any time? you know I have to I have to say with regard to this that having been in the motion picture business for all those years both of us in Hollywood and then governor and then here we've had a jillion pictures taken of us I wouldn't know how to find out or have a favorite they're just so darn many they say pretty good one over there I think on the one that you like but the that's really why we asked because there's so many pictures taken we thought perhaps maybe there was one in an instant that I like oh dear I've got them on horseback I've got them dancing I've got them everything that you could imagine you've got them dancing kissing you know it'd be hard for me to pick one up I think they're all pretty pictures and I counter her I don't add to them she does Mr. President while you were while the interview was going on Pete went out and checked out the espionage it depends on which statute the case is filed under so your answer was basically right the Pollard case was brought under a statute that allows only life sentence as the maximum and of course it's still being discussed in the courts as to what the sentence will be can't comment on that but that's the fact one favorite picture of mine up there in my dressing room is Nancy I'm not in it Nancy's about that high it's a little girl and I have that she was cute when she was in New Jersey back then yeah well maybe we'll get a copy of that you can write the caption underneath it for what you think is the suitable thank you so much thank you for having us I don't know whether I gave you any startling material or anything have a good 4th of July we hope it's not too mocked for you but too miserable that they're floating around they'll be out there in the carriers