Hello everyone and welcome to day 15 of the Level Up Symposium. My name is Andrew Scriver and it's my pleasure to welcome you to Performing Live, presented by the Associated Designers of Canada with support from Toaster Lab's Mixed Reality Performance Atelier. I am one of the co-curators of the symposium and a member of the ADC and I am very excited to be your host for this event. I would like to first acknowledge that I am coming to you from Chachage, which is the unceded land of the settler city of Montreal, which is and was long before colonizers arrived, a place of conference, conflict, and creativity for many Indigenous peoples, including the Ganyin Gahaga, the Anishinaabe, the Huron-Wendat, and Abenaki peoples. I am honoured and humbled to be able to be here to share and create with you all and so I offer my thanks. In the spirit of gratitude, I would like to first thank the Canada Council for the Arts, the primary supporter of the symposium as a whole, as well as our other sponsors, IACI, the University of British Columbia, Theatre Alberta, CITT Alberta Chapter, Concordia University, Ryerson University, York University, and all of our individual donors. Thank you all very much for supporting us. I'd also like to thank our volunteers, all of our presenters and attendees for making this symposium what it has grown to be. Thank you all so much. So for your information, all of our symposium events will be recorded and presented in a freely available archive on our website within a few days of the event. Thank you all to our attendees for joining us today. You are obviously watching this live stream either on the Level Up website, which is levelup.designers.ca, on HowlRound through our partners at Toaster Lab, or on the respective Facebook pages for the ADC or Toaster Lab. Regardless of your viewing platform embedded on the same page as the video is the chat function in the top right hand corner, you can click on the little speech bubble to put in any questions or chat comments, anything that you want. Any of the questions that you asked in the chat will be presented to the presenters by myself. This event can be enjoyed through auditory or visual access or a combination of both. As I said, I will read aloud all questions that you asked through the chat, and this information will also appear visually at the bottom of the screen. Visual access is also supported with captioning for myself directly below me and for all speakers in the archived video. If you require technical assistance to support your access, please email levelup at designers.ca for immediate support or to provide feedback following our events. If you enjoyed this session, I would ask that you please consider donating anything that you can to the Associated Designers of Canada to support our National Arts Service Organization in achieving its goals of advocacy, mentorship, and industry promotion. Donation links are available on all viewing platforms, on our website, the ADC's website, which is designers.ca, or on CanadaHelps.org, so please consider donating. Thank you for your patience with all of our announcements. It is now my pleasure to welcome the guests of this event. First up, we have Dakota Alcantara Camacho, who is a performer who believes in creativity as a record of interaction with the spirit realm and weaves through languages of ultramaking, movement, film, music, and prayer, generating moments of encounter with the universe. Welcome Dakota. Greetings, everyone. My name is Dakota, and I'm Matau from the islands of Laguas, and I am currently living in the land of the Dokobsh in the place that is momentarily known as Seattle. I'm facing the mountain that's known as Dakobid on the hill of La Chute Seed and near the waters of Edie Monster, the Salishin, and the Dokobsh River, and I'm really happy to be here today. We're very happy to have you with us. Next up, we have Emma Tobaldo, who is a performer, director, a rock star, and the artistic and executive director of the new creation center Playwrights Workshop Montreal, otherwise known as PWM. Welcome, Emma. You just had to say rock star. That's so mean. Hi. Hi, everybody. Lovely to be here. Full disclosure, I am a director and a dramaturg, so performing in bands is known to me. Performing on stage, theater is new, so having, I guess I'm going to speak to my experience of being a performer and then moving it onto digital and it all being one of my only experiences as a theater performer other than school. So there you go. The learning club was huge. Well, it's great. It should be very interesting conversation. Thank you for being here. Maybe. Thank you. Full disclosure, Emma's also my boss, so there's left to just just for another thing. So third and not last last but not least is of course Richard Lee, who is a performer, creator and educator based in Edmonton, working in contemporary dance and theater. Welcome, Richard. Hello. Coming to us from a set, not from his living room. Yes, yes, from my set. Well, what is actually in my living room? It's half of half of my living room, technically. Well, welcome. I'm very happy to have you here. Glad to be here. So thank you all for joining us. I think I would give, we'll just jump right into it, Richard, since you joined us last. Why don't you tell us what it is that you've been up to? Yeah. So among the many things I feel I've been extremely lucky to do during this pandemic in the world of online performance, is this set that I'm sitting on is the set of the A Night In With Lucy Darling, the Zoom show that my cohort and I have been working on since May when we did our first show of it for one of the NAC live streams. And it is a Zoom magic show, but it's a Zoom magic show with a with a larger theatrical arc built into it. And it's it's based around the character created by Chris Hendricks called Lucy Darling. And Lucy Darling is sort of like a combination of a fifties starlet slash almost like a drag show persona who does incredible character based magic and a lot of cocktail magic and that sort of thing. And so my partner and I, Miranda Allen, are play her butlers. We play her butlers, Lawrence and Marcy. And so we're always scrambling around to help Lucy get through get through her act and interact with the audience and perform magic and really deal with sort of the chaotic world that surrounds our current chaotic world that surrounds this this very sort of idealized starlet's life. Okay, thank you. Emma, what have what have you been up to? Well, I guess trying to keep up with COVID-19 measures running a theater company during this time in a community here in Jojage and Montreal and and and dealing with the devastating effects on on on the community. So so that's majority of it. Part of that has also been working on a piece called Skin that we've been working on for like five years creating in studio and we've done two works in process of it in theaters and finally having a grant and being able to do a full production of it. And then having to decide what to do, whether or not we were going to continue or or put the grant on hold and not do anything or change it so that it could be on a digital platform, but still have a theatrical pulse. So because I'm a dramaturg, that question is really interesting to me in terms of how do you make theater theater on a digital platform. So so that was the the focus of the work. So for the past three months, Leslie Baker, who is a director, the co creator and a performer myself as co creator and performer and just Shrag as co creator, mostly in doing the writing, we've been turning it around so that it's on a digital platform with Potato Cakes Digital, who are the the folks that are here with you now.  So we're all figuring it out together. We were all putting it together and figuring it out over these last three months. So it's been a really exciting, interesting and terrifying experience. And it is an experiment. And and I kind of love the idea of it being an experiment.  And yeah, so it's a whole learning experience. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Dakota. Yeah, it's um, well, I've been up to all kinds of things. I always start when people ask me what I do. I so I've been teaching, which has been interesting teaching both movement, writing, creative writing, and also my language, which is a completely different experience. You know, I think something I've been thinking about a lot is part of the exchange of knowledge from an indigenous perspective is, at least from my indigenous perspective, is the sharing of breath and that within inside of breath is knowledge. And so part of the way that I've been approaching the the teaching is get getting us to somehow become aware of how the breath we're sharing is still shared. But it's like from a safer distance, much more than six feet. And, and then, you know, as a dancer, breath is so important as a form of communication. And so I've been kind of working with what are ways that we can safely create video. I also was working for a dance company called Dancing Earth. And we were trying to translate the experience of creating performance as ritual through the digital realms. And that was that was a very interesting process and experience, because, you know, each of us are responsible for creating our space for ritual, but also that that ritual happening through the screen. And I've been I've been engaging in that as well in my own community as we are working on on doing community building work across distance and throughout the diaspora. So it's this is this is such an interesting moment, especially, you know, I worked with young people once a week this month.  You know, and at the same time, making space for people to leave their cameras off if they need to. And yeah, it's just it's been a real fun process of getting to know people in a different kind of intimacy. Thank you. Yeah, I think that this is a good little segue into just the first question that we had asked when we were talking about things in advance of this chat. But what what have you all seen or done? What is it? What have each of you something that you've seen or done as part of this pandemic? Because that's the context that we're living in. That's what we have to know right now, which has inspired you in your creative practices, because you all come from very different backgrounds. So I'm sure your inspirations are all quite different. Who wants to go first? Well, I'll just say that I'm still inspired by theater. It's odd for me to think of what am I inspired by digitally. I mean, there's digital contemporary digital work that I think is amazing. And that is obviously inspirational as in our form. But what inspires me digitally in theater is theater. So how people are able to transmit that feeling is what excites me. So for example, when I when I watched Dear Woman, it just felt like they were able to capture the spirit of the theatricality of the piece. It was written in a way that that lends itself beautifully to it.  And so I thought that was extraordinarily successful and beautiful to watch. There was also some, you know, some shows, dance shows that where the camera work was was done in such a way that you felt like the camera was moving with the dancers. And so you can you could see the sweat, you can feel the breath, you could live with them. And so in a weird kind of way, I felt I felt like I was part of the dance, which, you know, which is also happens when you're live. But it was really exciting to feel that digitally. And again, it wasn't done because people were just filming it. It was because they thought about, well, how do we move the image so that the audience could feel like this is theatrical, that they can, you know, that they can change perspective, that they're not just getting a full screen all the time, that they're moving in and out, that they're with a point of view, a perspective, and then move to another perspective. So, so again, I just think that what works, what works is when you take the audience into consideration. And when, and when, and when you allow yourself to think about what is the theatrical experience of an audience sitting at home in front of a screen, like that is the given. So how do we, how do we, how do we change that? How do we, how do we work with that constraint? I guess that's where I get really excited. Yeah. And I guess their woman for me was, was a perfect example and Papillon by, by Ellen Sima was another one and anything that is, yeah. Well, I think about this beautiful public program that I was a part of through the Seattle Public Library called Legendary Children. Legendary Children is an annual event that is a collaboration with the Seattle Art Museum and the Seattle Public Library. And it celebrates house and barroom culture as it's, as it's created in the Pacific Northwest, and is affirming to queer and trans BIPOC folks more broadly. And it's an event that usually has around 500, maybe 700 people packed inside the Seattle Art Museum every year. And so when we had the challenge of doing it digitally, we, we thought, well, how are we going to create that vibe of being surrounded by this massive amount of people who share this experience, who share this ethic, this way of knowing and being in the world of caring for each other, you know, despite all odds. And, and just seeing the way that people are brainstorming, well, how could we have safer gatherings outside with heaters, you know, projectors, like what are the technical needs in order for people to, to, you know, honor all of our needs to have our health and well-being. But also like be real about the resources that people do and don't have, right?  But dreaming about them and dreaming about what would be necessary in order to give access to our community to have that was, was really essential.  But also one of the calls that we had from somebody who I considered elder and in the community who's a Stefan Wallace from the House of Blonic, who's also works in public health is part of, I think it's, I really bad at names of things, but the national task force of something, something, you know, one of the things that he had has to do with COVID. But one of the things that he had asked us to do was to, you know, there is this way that the performative aspect of house and ballroom culture is being lifted up. While at the same time, people are missing the, the most important, I don't know if I want to say the most important, but an essential part of the culture, which is the way that people care and take care of each other, right? And so we were also able to, on, we had a one production day where we had the houses in the Pacific Northwest meet because everybody was in, was in their bubbles. And we, we filmed them outdoors in the Seattle, in the Olympic sculpture park here. And we also did, so they got to perform to the same track that we commissioned from somebody else in the community. And then we also did interviews with people to ask them about, you know, how their lives are going in COVID and, and what does the house and ballroom culture mean to them, right? So it was this way of creating a program that was really holistic, that would have the same kind of exchanges that you would have in a live event or in a community event where you're getting to know people, getting to know how people think what's going on in each other's lives and have that be integrated with the performances. So we got to celebrate the energy and the beauty and the power of ballroom culture, of queer and trans, BIPOC creativity, while at the same time having an inside look in, into how people are creating culture and the culture of, of mutual aid in a lived kind of genealogical, historical, but very present and futuristic way. Cool. Richard, what about you? Yeah. Oh, it's just digesting. Dakota's response is cool. In terms of works that I've seen, there was a really wonderful use of just of the Zoom platform with a local company called the Foxden Collective that created this interactive mystery play based on solving the mystery of this sorority. They had like this, this sector that was stolen and you had to figure out who it was. And so the audience was put into breakout rooms of five people. So you'd be, you'd be working together with, with a few other strangers to figure out this mystery and these little breakout rooms in one by one, you would interrogate one character by one. And what was so great about it in terms of taking into consideration the audience experience was that the world of play was really established well before you even started the whole thing. So you got your email giving you information about the sorority and about this sector that's gone missing in the chat during the show. You would get these little quick updates that would send you to a link about a fake website or a blog created by one of the characters. And so that you really, yeah, you got so much more of the world and the world was really built into the technology and into the characters, the way they interacted with you. And there was, there was so much more room for, for the performance in the characters journeys and the way you interacted with them to, to go any direction really. Yeah, it was, it was just really, really, really well done. It's boxed in collective sister. Another work, I mean, it was quite early in the pandemic. So it was really just like, let's, let's turn on zoom and do it. But I, I loved it purely for, for the prowess of, of being live with each other was Rebecca Northon's blind date. She, I saw her when she did it with Tony Napo, I believe it was back in May. And I mean, both Rebecca and Tony were just so, so live and present and genuine with each other. And for anyone who hasn't seen blind date, it's, it's, it's an improvised date that Rebecca Northon's clown character Mimi goes on with a random audience member. And of course, since she couldn't do it in the usual way of meeting the audience member in the lobby before she had to have it preset up. And normally she wouldn't do it with another actor.  This time she got, she did it with an actor Tony Napo. But it was all very genuine and all very present and lovely and real. And, and I think that just speaks so much to the power of, of simply being live with each other and two people interacting genuinely with each other. And in terms of things that I've been working on, I mean, as I mentioned, there's the Lucy show and I've, and I've gotten a chance to do some, some online dance works that were both prerecorded and live streamed. But I was also teaching for the fall. And this was when the numbers were lower, the COVID numbers were lower in Alberta. So I was doing face to face teaching, masked in distance, sometimes outdoors when the weather was good and sometimes indoors when the weather wasn't so good.  And then the last week we had a student who tested positive. And so everything went online. And it was really inspiring to see the students find that sense of togetherness on their screens, distanced apart. We, I teach, I normally teach contact improvisation, which is obviously going to be off the table for the next year in a bit. So I was teaching them ensemble improvisation and moving to text and moving to prerecorded text because I figured, let's, let's work with film, let's work with us work with the circumstances we're in. Anyways, improvising with them over zoom and seeing them dance within, you know, their bedrooms or their basement or like their exercise room with like seven other people's like stand up bikes there, seeing them work within those both awful limitations, but also really interesting creative limitations was very inspiring to see and to see them move together, even with a zoom lag to see them move together is really inspiring. That's lovely. You've each mentioned sort of separately this experience of working with the audience to coach it to go to you mentioned sharing breath and how, how so because this is a panel of performers talking about performing live. So let's, let's talk more about that experience and how what do we, what do we lose and what do we gain as far as digital experiences as actors when it comes to performing with an audience? If you want, I'll go first. All right. Okay. So, yeah, so, so skin was, I think, brilliantly set out as brilliant. I mean, that one of the tenants was that it had to be live, that most of it had to have an element of likeness. And of course, in a pandemic, that's not possible. Not everything can be live because we can all be on stage together. And, and part of it is that it's a dance piece. So, or a movement piece. And like, there's five people on stage, we couldn't do that. So we had to figure out what needed to be pre recorded and what could be live and what was being created digitally and what was being created by the bodies of, of the actors in the room. So, you know, part of what, what happened was that little segments were prerecorded and then little segments were prerecorded with the liveness and then other segments were completely live. And it's hard to tell the difference. But as a performer, I was mostly live in all of the segments. So having done it in theaters in front of an audience where you could feel, feel that coming at you, understand what the audience is, experiencing or at least have an experience of experiencing the, the audience experiencing it.  However, however, I have to say that had it not been live, it would have been different because the parts that were recorded did, did feel different doing and the parts that were live, I still could feel the audience. Like, psychologically, no matter what, I was imagining people at home experiencing this and I made up what their experience was, but it fed me in a way that I didn't think was possible. So there's one, there's one segment where, you know, it's a, it's a gesture and vocalization and a gesture that goes on. It's a durational piece. And I was, you know, I was living through something quite, quite real and I was in imagining other people living it with me and I was imagining myself doing it for them and then being part of what I was doing. So, so in actuality, there was a kind of psychological trick that I guess I was able to do for myself where I felt like I was in front of an audience simply because I was live, which isn't true when it's being prerecorded. Then it's just you on the camera and it's an awkward relationship that you have to learn how to navigate, which is, you know, why there are film actors and theater actors, but well, and they don't necessarily cross over. But yeah, being able to be theatrical while being filmed was possible for me and I found that really, really exciting. And knowing that the sound was live and knowing that elements were always live and it could go wrong at any moment was exciting as well. I guess that's my answer. Andrew, do you mind repeating the question? Of course, it's essentially because how, what do we, what is gained and what is lost in this digital format when it comes to you as a performer interacting with an audience? As your audience is there, you're performing live. There is a digital live audience, hopefully. Right. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I've had a range of experiences that have felt quite, quite different, both with live digital audiences. I did a show with Mile Zero Dance back in November. We streamed from a, we live streamed from a warehouse. It was a site specific piece that had three solo dancers very far apart dancing in different sections of the warehouse with a camera crew that would follow all of us while someone live edited what camera was showing which and is quite a large warehouse and sections were quite dark. So I quite felt, quite often felt like I was completely alone. Like I wasn't even quite aware of the camera, which in a certain way made me feel quite transported as a dancer. I felt like I was in another world. It didn't feel like I was performing so much as embodying some bizarre apocalyptic dance experience, which is what the piece was about. It was about natural disaster and these things that we're experiencing now completely turn our lives upside down. So in a certain way as a performer, it felt quite interesting to be so removed from the sense of anyone watching it, even the person filming it. What the audience experience for that was like is the feedback that I got, of course, was always delayed because there was no monitor for me and I don't think I would have wanted a monitor or to have any sort of live audience sound at the time. The feedback that I got from audiences who watched it were pretty good, but in a way, I didn't want to be aware of the audience while I was doing it due to the nature of the piece and due to the fact that I was in this weird warehouse climbing, literally climbing the walls and getting hit by a storm of garbage.  It was a bizarre surreal piece. Now, contrasting that with the Lucy show, where off the top of the show, we have, like we really warm up the audience. We ask them to treat it not as a Zoom meeting, but as a show and to turn on your mic and to turn on your camera and we get people to clap if they can hear. It's sort of like street performer kind of warming up the audience kind of tactics. And of course, there's all the magic tricks that ask you to imagine someone that you miss and imagine someone that someone, what their favorite car would be and things like that. And so there's real face-to-face interaction where it can feel incredibly intimate and incredibly live. And because in my role on spotlight switching all the time, I'm also monitoring the gallery constantly to see who's leaning in, who is laughing, who's smiling, even if they have their mic off. So then when we invite their mic on, we get a sense of like, yes, that is the right guest to pick for this particular part of the act. And how have audiences been responding to that? Do you have people clapping and cheering along? Yeah. I mean, when we got really good at it in the fall show, I mean, we would have 20 or 30 mics on at a time out of an audience of 50. We usually wouldn't have an audience bigger than 50 because at that point, managing them all while also playing a character gets really, really difficult. Yeah, we would have about 20 or 30 mics on and then you would hear a large amount of laughter all happening at once.  And then you press mute all at the end of the show and they're gone instantly.  We've been successful with it. We've been successful in having the audience really feel like they're there with each other. Quite often we'll also get them to talk to each other before the show to get that lobby sense of being in the lobby before. Sometimes we'll have a plant. We'll have someone say it out loud. So where's everybody from or like what are you drinking tonight and that sort of thing. And that's when people start it. It does actually get people talking. Do you think you just ruined it by telling everyone that there's a plant now? Well, I mean, that's not the kind of plant that you'd expect with a magic show. We're talking about like getting people talking kind of plant. But yes, sometimes people like to do it on their own. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, this is really great. I'm really glad to be hearing y'all's perspectives and and experiences. I have so many thoughts about this. You know, one thing about what we lose is the technical staff. Like how are we all of a sudden all producers and sound technicians and video technicians, you know, and running Zoom at the same time that we're doing stuff. I mean, that program that I talked about earlier, Legendary Children, I was like performing, hosting, spotlighting, pinning, you know, backstage managing, like all at the same time. It was like, you know, usually I'm used as an artist. I'm used to like, you know, writing all the grants and, you know, making the flyer and doing all of that stuff. But then I show up for the piece and I'm like, okay, you know, I'm in the zone, right?  And that hasn't always been the case in this moment. You know, another thing that feels like loss in a sense is that sense of reciprocity. You know, I feel like in a lot of Indigenous ways of doing things, the story changes depending on who you're telling it to. You can tell the same story a thousand times and it's never the same story, because it's always a new context. And it's in response to who's around you and the ancestors that they've brought into the room, you know, and the quality, the energy, you know, that every individual person is cultivating inside themselves throughout their lives and on that day that they walk into the room with, right? And so there's a sense then that, you know, depending on how you set things up, like, you know, how interactive can I be, right?   And then at the same time, on the flip side of it for me is like, you know, one thing that I've been feeling is, like, we've actually always been able to reach out, you know, across thousands and thousands of miles, via our minds, you know, like, before our natural way of being with the earth was interrupted, you know, I could have a thought about somebody in a completely different continent and we would be connected, you know, we'd be able to have conversation, we could, you know, maybe we would both go up to the mountain and talk to each other. I believe that that's true, you know, in my heart and in my soul. And I know that it's true because every once in a while I get a phone call from somebody like, I literally just thought about you. You know, and so this opportunity to also become aware of how technology is a reflection of the gifts that we've always had, right, is that is beautiful and powerful. And also, you know, something that is lost is, I think this is a hard toss up. I was just reading about the impact on the, the negative impact on the environment that streaming video has and the difference between streaming video and audio because it takes so much more water, it takes so much more land, right? So, so what are we losing in terms of our respect for the environment, you know, from our disconnection of our understanding of what it actually takes. It's a completely different embodied experience to know I got in my car, I use this much oil and gas, you know, or I walked, I took the bus, that was my environmental impact. But the environmental impact is so much further away from us because we're not even thinking about, you know, what, what is the actual infrastructure of the internet? You know, what that is allowing us to broadcast this and connect with, with each other? What is the impact of, of sending my video through a stream and it being broadcast on other screens in terms of energy?  But, you know, my, my ancestors, my people have this way of being that when we, when we go into a space, part of the way that we, we respect the sacredness of that particular moment is that we honor all those that came before the ancestors of that place. Right. And so we usually, when I'm doing something live and with people, we're all in the same place. Right. So, but now we're in a moment where we're all in different places and in different lands. Right. So I can acknowledge the mountains and the rivers and the waterways and the, the cedar trees and the hills all around me, you know, and you all have, have also have all these relatives around you too. You know, and so how do I, how, how do I bring us into a moment of consciousness with that? You know, one thing I've been talking about is, and I learned this from Ronnie Pinoy, who's a beautiful and powerful native woman, a creative, you know, the zoom platform that so many people use is located on the lands of the Eloni. And so we're actually, we're, we're impacting another indigenous land, you know, in a way that we wouldn't if we were all together in the same place, not, and we would all be impacting the same indigenous land, you know what I mean? In a negative way, but now that impact is also further spread out. And then on top of that, there's the impact of like the minerals that were mined and the people who were, whose labor was extracted in order to create all of these devices. So we also, I mean, that is what is lost in one way. And also we have an opportunity to, to become aware of that and to put that in our minds and put that into our ways of being so that we can really be honest with ourselves, you know, about, about what it is that we're doing, you know, and what is our version of being human and who is it negatively impacting. And not who just in terms of people, but plants and animals and species, you know, waterways. And and I think, I think that there's an opportunity to kind of have a wider impact. And I'm curious about how we can still have that wide impact while going really quite deep, you know, like, and as somebody who's used to feeling somebody's energy in a space, when I share an ancestral song, you know, what is it's teaching me something completely different. Because usually I rely on that exchange in order to know something about myself. But now I'm learning about how to share that song and be solid within my own relationship to myself and in that experience. You know, and, and the feedback may come later, you know, that's also a part of the process. But yeah, this moment is so is so interesting because of all of these horrible and beautiful tensions. Yeah, it's, it's so complex. We live, this is in a complex time. And this has definitely come up in some of our other quest, some of other chats, specifically about the ethics of the work that we're doing and how the platforms that we're using, the technology that we're using, how, where, where does that come from, who has stakes in that. I think that there was a mention at some point that somebody was asking about, how do you do a land acknowledgement for this kind of process, because we're coming from all over. And also the information is traveling to people on all sides of the planet. How do we acknowledge all of that at the same time while still being rooted in ourselves in the place that we're, where we're at? It's all so complex. But then you also, we do have the option to create for larger audiences and share stories and share ideas. So that in and of itself is quite a beautiful thing, I believe, which is really big for what we're doing right now. So thank you. Thank you for sharing all that. You, both you and Richard mentioned, just to come back to the act of creating as a performer in this time where you don't have access to a whole team of people working with you. How do, I guess it's more of a question of, now that you're doing your own technical stuff as well, how, where did you get started with that? And how, how has that transition been coming from the being a performer who was solely a performer creator into someone who also has to take care of running your own live stream, setting up your own lights and all that kind of nonsense. I keep looking at you, Richard, to be like, who's going to talk first? And then you are way more patient than me. I grew up poor and working class. So I've never not, I've never, ever just been a performer.  And sometimes also serving food to people, you know, all at the same time.  So, some of this stuff that I'm doing comes naturally to me because I'm like, oh, I've been, I've been doing sound, you know, for a long time. There's learning edges and I'm like, computers do what? You know, like there's those moments where I'm like, what?  But, you know, for me, it's just like, it's like, it's adding to the basket. And the ethic that's, that's always been there, you know, I mean, when I, when I have been able to just show up and do my thing, which has been rare, it's been amazing. And, but there's, there usually is always something that I'm, that I'm doing. And, and I think that this, this also kind of making, making that labor more aware to more people who aren't used to that. Hopefully, maybe. Yeah. So I, I'm extremely privileged. I grew up extremely privileged. And what you're just saying about making the labor more aware, that's been a major process for me in this. And that, yeah, I usually have had the privilege of just being a performer. And so having to learn all the, having to learn all the technology and having to simply take on another, another, or develop another part of my brain, another part of how I work while being a performer has been a good lesson for me, a much needed lesson. Not only in, in the technical aspect of learning how to work Zoom or learning how to set up lights or anything like that, but also in just being aware of, of all the other labor that's going on. And I think another layer of awareness that's been, that's been raised in this situation is the fact that because we're doing it at home, all the domestic upkeep, all the domestic labor that is easy to compartmentalize and put in another area of your life, it's like, no, this is all deeply, deeply interconnected because geographically, it's all right here right now. So like when, when Carissa and Miranda were building the set, and because I, you know, I have a very, very basic knowledge of, of how to build anything, I was best put to work to do the dishes, to cook for them, to clean for them. And I mean, not that I didn't cook or clean before, I think I've been pretty good about that. But what it made me aware of is like, how important that is in the ecology of all of it. And even when pre COVID or post COVID, when all that is distance, and it feels more compartmentalized, it's still all part of the same ecology of working and living together. And yeah, having to work out of our living room has really made me aware of that. It's really made me aware of, of that like, this is not just like this is work, but this is related work. This domestic work is related work because when we manage to eat, when we manage to create space for ourselves to just rest and breathe, that's feeding all of this work too. Yeah, that's, that's what I've really taken in from this time and space that's been created. That's, it's interesting, because I come from a personally from a, like a production background, that's what I've been doing for the longest time. I've been a production manager or designer. The last 10 years, something like that. But even in the context of now working from home, where we're not doing like live performance is not really constructing things. I'm now doing something like this, where I'm actually in front of the camera. And this is, this is a whole kind of new experience for me. And so it's, it's interesting shifting from doing that, but also having to still build the website and do all the technical background, like there's like added in factors that have been really quite interesting during this time. I think I've been really excited about Emma. Why don't, when we talk, because, because you didn't necessarily as part of skin have to deal with playing multiple roles per se other than being, being a creator, being the writer. But I wanted to ask specifically about your experience because skin had an original version that was done on stage with a set in front of an audience in a more traditional sense. And then moving into this digital version where there was no set, it was just all green. How is it for you that experience of creating, having the world created around you as opposed to existing within a world as an actor? Yeah, I, I gotta say the, the set for, for skin, when it was live was minimal. It was minimal set, it was still very much based on lighting and projections and sound. So, so the oral, the, the stuff outside set bodies in space was still the major, the major component of the work. I mean, there were some set pieces, but they were minimal and they were quite, well, they were minimal. And, and some of them ended up on the digital version as well, like the props, the rocks were both of the live and in the, so it didn't really change very much. What changed for me is having to live inside a world that was being built digitally. So actually the set became more, more of an issue digitally that it was in the live, in the live it was space and bodies and in digital it was, well, these are the places you have to move to in order for the image that is being produced digitally corresponds to what you're doing physically in the space. So, so it actually was having to look at monitors. It actually was that kind of work where as an actor you had to look at the monitor to know where you were in space because you were in a green space and therefore you had to, you know, and everything is mirrored and everything is backwards and everything is so, so your brain starts working in a different way. And so, so the learning curve was much bigger. And then, you know, not that odd thing of you're doing it, you're creating it, you're seeing it, you're watching yourself in the image, then to make changes is another step that you're not used to in live theater because you can change it, you can change it in space and time, but with digital then there's that extra step of having to change the digital environment and then having to re-adapt to it in order to be a performer inside of it again. So, so there's something about time that obviously we have to think about a bit more in terms of a lot more in terms of digital work. So that was an interesting learning curve. But yeah, I mean I'm used to doing, you know, everything, obviously. I mean, if you work in theater you're used to doing everything you can't, well, for most of us you can't exist without doing a lot of it, but plugging in all those cords to make the cameras working with the monitor, that is something that I will never learn and frankly don't ever want to learn. So, I will leave that to the folks that have the brain that can do that. And, you know, we all have different brains and we all have different ways of working. We all have different ways of knowing things, you know, and we have to be, and I know, you know, I find myself, I'm, I'm in my fifties, my brain works in a certain way. I grew up in a certain way without all of this technology, right? So, we can't function in the same way. I know it's hard to understand, it's kind of hard to understand for folks that have grown up with that way of thinking. But, you know, I watched my mom, she can't turn on, she can't turn on a tablet. And we've been trying to show her for months longer than that for a year. And it's just the brain can't take in that information. And that's something, the kindness that we need to learn in terms of how different brains work and how different people take in technology is also something I think we all have to learn because we can't all work and we can't all take in the information in the same way. So, I think that's important to remember as well. And how to explain it and how to bring people along so that they feel like they're part of it and not standing on the outside looking in. And that everybody has equal, you know, has something to offer in this new process, a different way of seeing it and understanding it. Yeah. Yeah. Time is an interesting concept when it comes to technology because all of these tools move and evolve at such a rate that's never been seen before. That we're constantly having new things thrown at us, but certain, like a younger generation that's been grown up with it can adapt really, really quickly. But yet we want to make sure that everyone has access to the same tools. And it's so it's always something that we have to constantly tell ourselves to, like, slow down. Those of us who are very technically minded have to slow down in order to be able to bring everyone. Sorry, Andrew. So sorry. I apologize every day. I apologize. I just don't know what to say. I'm sorry. Don't apologize. You don't need to apologize. It's us. If we're not helping you fast, well enough. Yeah, it's great. So I want to ask then, from all of your experiences, if there are in, if there are any, if there is anything mistakes that have been made along the way in your practices in this time period that you would want to impart upon other performers who have not actually had the opportunity to move into a digital realm that have not had the opportunity to start working in this way, or are still new in working this way and you want to impart some knowledge on them. I think if they're moving to the digital realm and they are, I mean, this is, this just extends into simply the idea of working from home is, is time management and space management, like mental space management as well, is so key. It's so key. Like I was saying, like all of your, everything else that happens in your home is going to be interconnected. And there's going to be a certain amount of compartmentalization that has to happen in order for you to feel like, okay, I'm done work right now. But also the stuff that I do outside of work is going to affect it. And it's going to feel that much more immediate because it's in the literal same geographical space. So I would say that, yeah, your, your time management and your, your literal space management is so important. We moved apartments back in January, we were, we were in a two bedroom apartment in the same building, a few floors down the three of us. And, you know, our living room was our set, all of the living room, whereas right now we have another half, we moved to a much bigger apartment, and there's an actual study where someone can go for a quiet space to just think and, and just be in a quiet space and write and having those dedicated spaces, which we are extremely privileged to have, has made a huge difference. So I mean, I guess for, for anyone moving into the digital realm, you know, if you're, if you were working in like a studio apartment with, with just your bathroom and then what you walk into is as best as you can in your space compartmentalize. And as best as you can within the sometimes very hard limitations that we have compartmentalize your hours to be clear about, we're on, we're off. And it's like it's so easy, so easy for everything to just blend together for all of your, your working and living hours to blend together for your workspace and your living space to blend together. And it's worth the effort to keep them, to keep them separated, even though they're of course they're always going to be interacting anyways, but it's worth the effort to differentiate them, I guess would be a better word rather than to separate them because they're going to be interconnected, but to differentiate them. Mm-hmm. I'm a living embodiment of, of the blend between those, between life and work, that the two just don't, there's, there's no separation. Sometimes I, I, I, it's, it's 1 a.m. and I'm, I'm working on something and I'm like, oh yeah, I should probably just stop. It's been 14 hours today. So I, I totally, totally connect with that idea that if you can separate those two as much as you possible. And you bring up an interesting idea about being in a small space where you need to compartmentalize behind me, you can't see it here, is a green screen which is in our bedroom, which has been turned into our studio. So it's kind of an interesting thing that we have to like be sure to take this down after each time we have a talk. So if, I think that's a really good point that if somebody's working within a space that's really small, but you're still performing digitally to be able to pack it up and put it away is a really good point. Anyone else have any thoughts to go to your knot in your head? Emma. I was just going to say conversations, I guess, because we don't know, at least I don't know. I shouldn't say we don't know. I don't know what time, how long things take to make. So it's really about having clear conversations about time, about expectations, about deadlines, about how to do the, you know, I'm walking into a whole bunch of new projects. And I guess that's what I'm taking with me the most is to just be really clear of what everyone knows and what everyone's expectation is. And what is it, what is the finished product that people are expecting? What is it that a theater company wants? What is it that the artists who are involved want? What is that idea before we get to it? Because, yeah, walking into it with as much information as possible, because we don't know what we don't know. So every experience, I think for a lot of people, and I'm speaking for myself, and for people like me, who are walking into these these experiences for the first time, there's a lot that we don't know. And again, we have to be patient with each other and we have to find a way of talking about things so that everyone feels respected. So yeah, that's something I hope I keep learning and I'm welcome. We'll put into practice better. Yeah, I think for me, part of it is like engage limitations as opportunities.  And, you know, I think, I think that there's, there's, we have we have cooked up this pressure to perform something other than reality, which doesn't just exist in the realm of performance. I feel like, you know, in this oppressive society, we live in, all of us are doing that in some way, you know, or at least we've been trained to do that. So for me, it's important to give myself permission to just be real, you know, like, you're going to hear the sound of my nephew.  So it's like really like loving, loving myself, like loving reality, getting help, you know, if I don't know how to do something, being honest about it, I asked so many questions to the Facebook universe, and you know what, all my people are so helpful. And it could not be that way if I, if I, you know, didn't work on the, all of the stuff that comes up for me when I think about reaching out for others to get some help, you know, building off of what Richard shared, like having rituals, you know, that marked the beginning and end of time. And for me, part of that is just acknowledging the life force that makes whatever I'm doing possible, right?  And I think that that made a difference. You know, the person came on right before we started anyway. So that was at least a confirmation in that moment that that's a good practice to integrate. Oh, it's lovely. It's funny, as you say, ask questions, that's actually a perfect time for me to be like, hey, audience, anyone who's watching now, if you've got any questions, please, please do ask. It's great. It's come up several times, right, that during this symposium that many people have mentioned this, that they're like, I just ask, I just ask for help. It's so important to ask for help. But in this new, not even just in now, but this was important before, it's when you're creating these things, we as creators have this tendency to put all of the weight onto ourselves and thinking that we, if we're, if we are skilled in what we do, that we can do it all by ourselves and we don't necessarily need to worry about other people. But it's so important. It's always so important just to ask for help and take that in whenever you can get it. And that we should, as a community, be sharing with each other and we should share ideas and our mistakes and our successes so that everyone can learn from those things. Don't hold on to that. That's just a good piece of advice. So on that note of leaving things behind or keeping what one of the other good questions that we had was like what techniques have we developed or you have you developed as performers, as creators in this time of COVID that you would want to take forward? What would you want to leave behind as far as this time period when it's eventually over, maybe, hopefully? What has worked or what has not worked for you? I'm going to say one of the things that's, that, you know, okay, again, because I work in developing plays, always come up against this time. So what this has allowed is for people to meet at better times when they're able to meet and for shorter periods of time more often. So because you're not moving, because you don't have to move from one place to another. And because then you can take care of your children or you can take care of your parents or you can take care of whatever it needs, have to be taken care of at home, then you can build a schedule around what is real life to what is real life in terms of creating theatre. So I think that's been really liberating in terms of finding the time and space for people to be able to create in a way that feels okay. The hard thing is finding space. The hard thing is finding privacy. Obviously the other side of that is space and privacy is difficult. So hopefully once the pandemic is over, it won't be about privacy and space, but it will leave behind the ability to work for a shorter period of time over a longer period, I mean shorter chunks of time over a longer period of time and to be able to share work and process with people that you want to share work and process with, which you wouldn't be able to otherwise. You can invite them in to look at work whenever, whenever you feel like it, right? You have the opportunity, but oh my gosh, I have got this thing just happened. I'm going to dial in this one person that I need them to see this right now and we can build off that. So then there's the ability to do things spontaneously, I think, because we're not traveling distances. So yeah, I suppose if we figure out how not to increase deep carbon imprint, that would be a great advantage, I think, in terms of the creation process. Yeah, that's a really great point about being able to connect and pull people in from much further distances. I believe Dakota mentioned that as well, about being able to connect with people in terms of this technology allowing us to do that. But yeah, it's really also that's that's it, right? We don't have to people don't have to fly necessarily to in order from one place to another in order to be a part of a creation process on the other side of the country that we can we can bring those people into the room with us is a really quite powerful tool. But then of course, we question the amount of energy that we're spending in terms of having our computer systems on. So is that better than a plane? Who knows? Richard, what about you? Yeah, I'm just reflecting on what you're just saying, Emma, about the potential flexibility that all of the technologies we're using right now provide the potential technology because there is, as you mentioned, still a learning curve. It isn't necessarily as accessible as we assume it is, but it has the potential for it and has the potential to create really flexible use of time and of space. I have been taking a lot of workshops and classes from my contemporary science practice and teaching remotely so much that I think, man, in past years, all the money I spent on plane trips to Berlin and the plane fuel and all of that consumption for a few weeks of intensive training and all of the money where now I can just go on and access that training or someone can access me right now. I have a student that I teach remotely in San Jose and it's no big deal. It's that easy. It's that instant, but there remains still the question of, well, there's still a footprint, exactly as you said. Dakota, as you said, there's still a footprint. There's still an impact there. It's not in jet fuel, but it is in all the actual technical infrastructure that exists for this to happen. So that's such a good reminder. I don't know what the breakdown is for that. I don't know exactly what the carbon breakdown is, but it's not actually zero footprint. It's not. I would love for our flexibility of time to somehow be moved forward. I would love for, as the meme goes, this could have been handled in an email or this could have been handled in a Zoom call or a phone call for that to be much more regular. And with that in mind, still respecting the home space, respecting the private space. I don't know. It's all such a balancing act. I think community and local community becomes a very important thing in terms of this idea of carbon footprint. It's like we all exist within our own space that's much smaller and we don't necessarily need to work, think as big. I don't know. That's a whole other thought that I've had and have had conversations with people about. But time and energy spend is very questioning. Dakota, do you have any thoughts on that? To be honest, the question is kind of like confusing my brain. I'm like, I was like, what would I want to leave behind from this experience? I think one thing that I've been, it's kind of been coming to the fore for me. Maybe this is the opposite of your question is just thinking about how a lot of what has been implemented in response to COVID have been practices, strategies, technologies, and ideas that people in disability communities have been doing for a while and have actually been like asking everybody else to do and to adapt to. So thinking about, that's one thing that I'm thinking about is who has access and who doesn't. At the same time, Larissa Fasthorse was talking about working with her community in the Dakotas who don't have access to the internet and their community at all. You know, I'm thinking about my people in Guahan where the internet quality is much worse than here, even though the fiber optic cables that give us internet from Asia have to run through Guahan. And so our internet is quite good over here on this continent. And their internet is not as good as ours, even though we wouldn't have internet without our people in Lugwes. So I think that I feel like those questions have been core to my practice and my way of being. And they're somehow even more material. And definitely just, yeah, I mean, I'm a part of a my people. There's more of my people, of Matthau, Chamorro people living outside of our homelands because of U.S. settler colonization, militarization, the military is stolen. After World War II, they stole two-thirds of our land and turned it into a military base. And today they hold a third of the land on the island of Guahan, two-thirds of the land on the island of Tinian. And they control an entire island in the north where they do like military exercises. So just, you know, thinking about how all of these things really impact where to put the energy of the work, you know. And those are those are the things that I'm kind of sitting with, thinking about responsibility and accountability. What it means to have access to this and what it means to not. I didn't. That's absolutely upsetting that the about the internet access going straight through the island, but not stopping there. That's really upsetting to know. Internet access becomes such a forefront of conversation as far as who has it and how do we create systems that we can actually access that and everyone can access it? I really hope that I'm actually now I'm blanking on whether it's become that it's been put into being actually a human right yet or not within Canada. And I'm not sure if that's a thing, but that should be and then everyone's everywhere else too. So thank you. Thank you for that. What's so there Emily says the UN has declared it great. So the UN has declared that it's a human right. Now we know. So till we get any other questions, I just thought I'd ask what's what's next? What's what's what's up next for for you? If anyone wants to jump in on that in the next where is your creation going and where where do you see yourself performing next in a digital live format? I'm going to throw Richard. So you get first, right? Okay. I'm unmuted so I'll go first. I think as I mentioned earlier, the Lucy show is doing most shows in February. We're doing doing a fundraiser for the sir. What is it? The costume coalition. Thank you. The costume coalition for costume designers on Broadway. We're doing a Valentine's show for that. We're doing a show for Vanishing Inc. And we're doing a show with the the professional theater professional French theater company in in Edmonton. At the end of February, we're doing a bilingual version of the show, which is a bit terrifying for me because even though I won't be speaking much on the show, my French is extremely rusty. So Chris, Chris, thankfully, will be speaking most of that. And as she grew up going to French school and in French immersion social, she'll be okay. But so that's that's February. And then in the general future, I'm really interested in moving more into dance on film. Having worked in, you know, ephemeral forms for so long, it's it's really fascinating to me right now to have this sense of I can capture this I can capture this movement now and I can I can have it as an as an artifact. I mean, of course, it lives as an artifact in my body. But as an artifact that I can share more actively with others is exciting. And so I'm interested to do more, more work with dancing on film and writing and yeah, things that things that feel a little less ephemeral, even though it's all ephemeral. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because is film really ephemeral? If it's if it locks it in forever, and then it could just exist.  As long as the internet exists, I guess that in the in terms of the universe, everything is ephemeral. So, Emma, what are you, I know what you're doing next, but what do you tell the world what you're doing next? Well, I really don't know what I'm doing next. No, I don't. But I do know that I'm I'll be doing some readings, staged readings through digital format for the working on new creation in the studio as much as possible and continuing to work on new creation through Zoom, which has been a strange experience as well. The kinds of conversations that you can have in a room are different from the kinds of conversations that you end up having on Zoom. Simply because you can't be natural, there's just no way of being absolutely natural in terms of being able to speak and who cuts off who or how to, you know, like those those negotiations are still ongoing and it just it doesn't come natural to a human being. Therefore, it makes the conversations different. So I'm curious to keep experimenting and to see where where it leads us. I'm going to keep I've picked up the drums in the last year just because I've always been a singer and a band that I always wanted to play the drums. So that's what I'm doing. I'm just learning how to beat on drums downstairs in my basement by myself. And I'm lucky enough to have a bass so I can do that. But yeah, that's that's it. And, you know, in terms of skin, I don't know. I mean, we're still we're still wanting to to do a live performance of it. It might be an installation piece. I don't know what will become of it, but it's not it's not finished. I don't think I think this was a phase of it and it will continue to grow in a different way. But I'm glad we were able to go through this phase because it teaches a lot. That's great.  You know, if it's if it's yeah, yeah, I do actually, I kind of love it.  Perfect. Dakota. Yeah, well, I'm really excited for the month of March. I am working on a short film right now, which is a dance film. And it is a cinema. I never know how to say that word. Cinemagraphic translation of this performance ritual that I've been working on. I'm having the longest run on sentence right now. It's so great. It's which is the cinematographic translation of a performance ritual that I'm working on, which is the creative research outcome of a project that is exploring the idea of being of being a navigator, like an oceanic sea navigator. This comes from my ancestral lineage. Understanding that as an intelligence, as a auto ethno choreographic method, a recitation of a lineage. So I'm in March, I'll be premiering the trailer for the short film, which is called attack. And as part of the settlement festival, which will connect us to the UK to native peoples of Turtle Island to the black community here in the south end of Seattle and folks back home in Guahan. So really trying to like utilize this moment to weave the cosmic connections that I feel like have informed my understanding of what it means to be indigenous today. And so we're going to be doing that in March. And in that creative research project, Malie is is a long term project for me. And the next phase of that is which is beginning in March, which nobody will really see the creative outcomes for for a little while is convening people in my community to engage in this auto ethno choreographic process that I'm creating, which is also a method of deepening our understanding of our cultural knowing. So you can see this poster behind me, which is part of the the the philosophy of creativity that we're developing from within our cultural worldview. And we're going to be teaching that to a small cohort of Matt our creatives through the body and through embodiment. And then using that to tell our stories as children of survivors of Japanese internment camps and military occupation of the US is, you know, of the US is a horrible treatment of our people of the toxic waste dumps that exist in our islands of the US military currently trying to take more of our land, destroy our ancestral burial grounds and turn them into firing ranges. So tell all those horrible stories, you know, but in a way that's rooted in our empowerment as a people, you know, that those are those are the stories that that are true. And also what is true is that we are brilliant. We are beautiful. We are powerful. And inside of our culture is a medicine that can transform the way that humans relate to everything on the planet in a good way. So back there. Thank you. Thank you for letting us know about that. I can't wait. I'd love to know more about that and when when it's going to come out and where that can be accessed. We have a question from our audience. So has very, very different change of pace here. So in terms of audience engagement, what are your thoughts on the use of chat functions happening simultaneous to the performance? Yeah, okay. I think I've seen it used effectively. You've seen it used not so effectively. And yeah, I think just having someone who's, if not solely dedicated to watching the chat has a significant portion of their mental space available to check out the chat is important. Simply just to be able to relay all the what's going on in the chat to to the performers and to everyone else. I unfortunately saw a show that I think didn't have a proper chat moderator or someone devoted entirely to chat moderating and there was some some pretty bigoted speech that was going on and unfortunately it went on too long and it had to be like moderated basically by the other viewers at a certain point to say like, hey, that's really offensive. You got to stop. And it was I mean it was in the middle of a middle of an otherwise like really interesting magic show, but there was just one viewer who just decided to fill the chat up with it. Keeping a safe space is one thing and also yeah, just simply relaying like what's going on in the chat right now and how does it relate to the on screen content. The show I mentioned earlier, the Foxtain Collective incorporated the chat extremely well and that like something would come up right in the chat right when you needed another clue or something to further your interrogation of the character. So yeah, I mean I think using the chat is an excellent strategy to be integrated. I would just say like make sure you devote the mental space and hours to it. That's great. That's great. Dakota. Yeah, I was going to say I'm surprised I have nothing to add. You know, I always have something to add. Perfect. Thank you, Richard. That's a great answer. So yeah, I think, I think we've got about three minutes left. So if anybody has anything else they want to impart on the world, who wants the last word before I take the actual last word? Oh, another question. I'll ask you this one first. How much do we feel the need to curate the audience experience with your digital performances? I would say in the same, in kind of the same way that I would for a live audience. I mean, I think, I think being aware of who the audience is or what you're well, not even who the audience or what you want your relationship to the audience to be is part of the creation process.  I mean, I think it's just, it's just as important as it is as in doing a live theater, if not even more so, because you have to think of it that much. You have to be that much more conscious of it, because it's not a given on how you're going to interact with them is not necessarily as much of a given as if they're walking into a theater. Although if you choose to do it in a found space or if you choose to do it in through a different form, of course that has, you know, obviously you're thinking about the audience a lot, a lot differently and a lot more. So yeah, I think equally, I guess, would be my answer. Yeah, I would add to that. Well, I don't know if it's adding it, but just generally agreeing. And yeah, the fact that like everybody's watching it, presumably, watching this stuff from home just reminds me that whatever I think of that fact, I'm always reminded of like, and you could just watch Netflix. You could just, you could just watch something that is like easier right now, easier and less requires less of your engagement. Which, you know, I mean, also people still make that same choice too, whether they're choosing to go to the theater or not or choosing to stay home. So I guess it is very close to the same. But I also think like within the scope of a show, like how much are you asking your audience in what moments, what level of engagement do you want at different points? I mean, like with the Miles Zero show that I did, we had to talk back at the end, but otherwise it was just like, here's a show you watch in the same way that you would relate to watching a movie. Whereas with the Lucy show at the beginning, we get them warmed up and we ask them right away like, here's how you're going to relate to it. But there are sections where we have prerecorded, like there's a dance sequence that I do and then there's like an escape act that Miranda does that's also prerecorded. So there's moments where for those who don't want to have to interact all the time can sit back and they can also just keep their cameras and their mics off if they want to sit back. But it gives everybody an opportunity to be able to sit back. And then there's also times when they are, they're invited to lean in and to interact in different ways. So I think, yeah, curating your audience's experience within the piece, as you always should, as Emma said, but also considering it on micro and macro levels. I think about this question in terms of caring for people. I mean, curate, my understanding of the word, the etymology of it means to care for the soul. So how do you create a space in which people feel cared for, even through the screen? And people have said really beautiful things here today about different ways that they've done that already. And so I like the idea of creating a space where people feel welcomed and engaged, where their presence is acknowledged, where everybody feels a part of what is happening. I think that's the very indigenous way of seeing the world and interacting with it. And I also like the idea of people taking responsibility for their own experience. I think that that's also a very indigenous idea. And I'm curious about how to weave those two things together. Well, thank you. With that note, let's just leave that in people's brains. And I'm going to thank you all for coming out. This has been a really lovely chat. And I'm sure that has put a lot for people to think about. And thank you all for taking the time today. And yes, it's been great. Yeah, thank you. I've learned so much. And it's been really beautiful listening to you. To you all speak. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thanks, everyone. It's been so great to listen to you and to chat. Yeah. Mi ga maasi. I really love getting an opportunity to share and grow our thinking together. It's been really lovely. Well, take care. And I'm sure we'll see you all around. Thank you to all of our audience members for coming out and sharing in this experience as well. And if you've enjoyed this or any of our other events as part of the level up, we have more than 40 of them now. If you've enjoyed any of those experiences, please donate to the ADC. Anything that you can, $2, $5, it all helps. Thank you so much for checking us out. We've got a critical conversation roundtable in an hour and a half, talking about the border between digital, between live and digital performance. So if you haven't signed up for that, you still got time to sign up for that and come and check that out. And then tomorrow at 3 p.m. Eastern noon Pacific, we have another instance of our Cinema 4D workshop with there's still time to sign up for. So thank you very much. See you around.


There's been a draft pool update chill with Peyton man.   I think that leaves for Ed Reid Megatron Bojax and Peyton Manning I have never in my life really ever used a Peyton Manning other than the 95 Peyton Manning that I just used an Ultimate team like two days ago for a video. He kind of throws lasers, bro And that was only with a few abilities on them the legendaries and superstar KO are absolutely cracked with abilities The only dilemma is we got a draft in first. So I'll be here for a hot minute, but once we do get him Nope, I've been so sick. I got him right off the rip. But once we do get him or cash money This is also infinite. So we play until we lose Oh My god, if they give me Peyton Manning now, holy shit, we already have Megatron, bro Please find a way find a way to give me Peyton Manning right now No shot that just happened with it I also have Tyre killing this Megatron Tyre kill is so broken.   There's oh my god I'm never getting this again. Oh, what do we want Jamal Adams with avalanche. That is what we want Also a huge thank you to loot boy for sponsoring today's video now Obviously, I want to play more Madden, but this time we're gonna use loot boy to help everybody can download loot boy It's totally free and users can collect loot coins to open free loot packs You can also collect diamonds via quests to open premium loot packs for free or you can get two packs for under $2 now I didn't have enough time to collect the diamonds to open this So I'm actually gonna open 10 packs right now with real money in the hopes that I can get some awesome rewards in Madden All right, some solid stuff and nothing in Madden yet. Hey roller coaster tycoon. That was my favorite game. Let's go I actually got my points. Let's I just got 500 mutt points. That's so hot. Let's go Solid Got more mutt points. I skipped through it so fast. I got a seat at the end I got 500 mutt points here. So I got 1,550 mutt points from that opening also these golden cards These always get users full PC versions of the game on steam or steam credits Like the fact that I can download NBA 2k Playgrounds 2 right now to my PC just from being on loot boy is so cool So absolutely check out the link to loot boy in the video description and use the code MMG12 then loot boy will send you a free community loot pack diamonds loot coins and much more check Redeem code under settings in the app after you have registered the code is only valid for new users Loop boy. Thank you response you guys enjoy the rest of the video.   He doesn't have hot rod master gunslinger protected is an insane combo But I cannot believe he doesn't have hot rod master. Luckily Megatron gets outside apprentice So I can still put the hot rods on Megatron, but I cannot believe he doesn't have it himself Alright, here's what we're gonna.   I kind of like that idea Go Tyreek. Oh my god. How did he come on?  That's so depressing. All right, let's splits TJ Watt claw Mac. That's kind of what they're intended to do, right? Gonna take the underneath silver here. Oh, okay.  They're not getting any pressure.  I'm so pissed. I read him like a book did not matter second and ten. What does he go with here? Let's go.   I just what? What? Who are you? Who are you?  He stayed on his feet for that. We didn't complete anything there I got a trip for the Hail Mary intrigued to see what he tries to throw here.  All right How is your forehand the big actually though? Who's he got over there wide receiver? Is that a double me? Oh, he's got megatron. Uh oh Wow very impressive tackling boys. I didn't see who he had on that left side So I was trying to get a double team on like ASAP. It's a mari cooper. Okay. He does not have double me I don't actually care now Could throw underneath through his running back. Oh throws a kelsey big hit avalanche So broken so broken. We're gonna go with the dive. I think he sees another run Yup and read get a block on that read. Let's go And we run. I say Simmons over levy on bell. I can streak megatron here. He is in a man coverage I just need some time to throw this post dude. That's all I need. I need some time to throw the post Bingo bingo. Let's go. What a perfect ball. Tyree kill just completely outruns him Omaha's actually kind of cracked though because right there I could see that would have had to cover one with a Free safety high and I don't know how that works in real football But in madden you can just run a post and you're guaranteed to touch down game three, baby. Let's lock it in He's got bow Jackson. Why is paint manning on defense? Who wants to tell me why peep Paint manning just tackle bow Jackson paint manning just tackle bow Jackson. This is not a drill This is not a drill. I'm gonna get a pick six of paint manning. Is this another run? It is It is but we're in there tj watt gets him from behind. I love when tj watt comes from behind what Oh bow Jackson's a savage and he breaks that tackle. Hey, that's what he does Oh play action. Oh, I'm in trouble. I just took my free safety out of oh wait, wait tj Tj watt's not built for coverage, bro. I hope this just play action again because I'm just gonna sack him Yes, get the sack get the sack.  I could not have gone better. My record is five straight wins on super shark ale It's not that good, but uh, we could beat it right here. Dude. Actually though, how is your forehead that big?  All right. I got that covered. Oh left side cross. I don't have covered Oh, that was sweaty Let's see if he stays in this play action because I'm in a second. Yep. Yep. Yep.  Are you shitting me?  I'd have to guess Oh huge hit fourth and goal on the three gotta be right for the scramble right side right side Fourth and goal. This could be a massive stop. Keep our streak alive Yes I can't get there. Oh my god hurts can't make the Loki kind of got bailed. I don't know what he was doing with Goddard there I'm gonna look for Tyree kill here on a deep one.   Omaha is actually so good in superstar ko first and ten. This is cover two again Peyton manning's gonna take off here. Oh Back across to bell Oh, I don't even think I got the first but that was nasty Peyton manning. I see you I kind of want to scramble with Peyton manning. Yeah, I think I'm gonna do it I'm scrambling with Peyton manning for this first here. Ooh one deep safety. I was gonna scramble I was gonna scramble with Peyton manning, but I feel Maybe I scramble here. Maybe I tried scramble this in for the two point. That would be so savage low key Can I really do that?  All right.  Did I I already had to win it after the i&t Okay, I mean one more win to beat my record. I could just beam one to megatron. Oh, he's playing deep yourself I could beam one to tyreek. Did he just toast him? I feel so bad, bro Like what are you supposed to do about that?  Come on juicy juice Draw No, you did not just get sauced up like that, bro.  I threw a bomb tyreek hill when he's in cover four playing over top and then avalanche hits I'm sorry, man. There's nothing you can do. I think that four now.  There's so much brain in there game seven. Oh Get there get there get there.  You're looking at a fourth 13 now. You're kind of in trouble Oh, it's a pitch no shot tj.   All right, so now we got cover two. I could actually go e and thomas are right down the middle here See where his user is Oh, wait Oh, look at megatron. Look at megatron. He's in let's go Dude, what we're gonna be here a while boys. What does he got lamar jackson hulio jones tyreek hill?  Look at hulio. What is he doing? And he just had touchdown. He missed it Get to the quarterback. Let's go. This guy's down feel awareness is not very good. He had another wide open man Uh, let's just get to the qb. Get there so fast. It doesn't matter Get there so fast.  Just literally 180 quickscoped me. All right.  Yes. I'm on him. Oh, no. Oh, no the tyreek hill post Let's go Let's go tj watt. Why is tj watt such an animal dude? I really really want to scramble with pain manning Please let me scramble. Yes double team. Yes Let's go pain No fumbles. Look at this.  Although he does have pretty good corner I'm he's davian howard. Oh I took too long Actually, I don't think it matters does it.  All right. Let's talk a war, baby We just can't let him bomb us right here. Where's hulio? Where's hulio? That's fine Oh, he was out of bounds. It definitely got bailed out right there. This is a cover two So I want ever it in the middle of the field. I checked down will be levy. I'm though. Oh, I got a few different I'm gonna go rv. Oh, oh my god. It works. Who's he gonna try and tackle me with come here. Xavier.  Let's go. I'm on the wrong dude. This is bad. I'm on kwiatkowski bad Oh, we're good. We're good He was double he just ended up making a good play. Oh, he's not playing on the top. This is good. This is good I'm gonna have another chance, but wow Oh, let's go pick six. Let's go.  I could beam one up to megatron. Hope he aggro's it low key That's a little bit too luck reliant for me though We're gonna have to see if tyree gets over the over the top and if he doesn't it's megatron on the post Wait a minute. No way.  This hits Get to the 50. Who's team is that? Is that his team or my team?  That was dope. All right boys. I'm happy to end it up on that. All right. Hey, I love you guys That was dope. I'll see you the next video. Thank you for watching as always I was so sick. Oh my god. All right. Hey peace out y'all


What was the issue for you out there today? It seemed like you're having some trouble with your control. It's just all over the place. Just off with the command, with everything. My fastball, my slider, my changeup. Just the command was off. But I felt like I was battling, trying to make some pitches, and just trying to keep us in the game. In that third inning, you got hit pretty hard on a comebacker, and then threw it over. Greg Byrds had. Were you OK after that? Oh, yeah, I was fine. The ball, that ball wasn't hit that very hard. I picked it up, it was wet. I was really nothing I can do. But just trying to make a pitch the next time and get the next guy. But yeah, I was fine after that. Knowing how big this series is and how meaningful it is as far as the standings are concerned, is it disappointing to you to come out and not necessarily have your best stuff? Yeah, it is. I mean, you want to come out and pitch well to the very first game of the series, especially against a team that's leading to the division. It's frustrating, but hopefully we can bounce back tomorrow and get a win. So CeCe, you came out of the game because of pitch count and circumstances, about because of where you got hit or anything? Oh, no, yeah, you got to ask them, yeah.  Where did you get hit? I was about the second you didn't take out it.  You know what, when you're out there, you're out there. So, you know, I didn't really feel that, you know?  So you didn't get pitching? I'll always feel like that. I'll always feel like I can keep pitching. Did it get you in the hip? Yeah, right on the thigh.  I never know. You know, I don't know. That's, you know, Blue's decision. That's why he's the manager. But I'm just here to throw, you know, as long as hard as I can for as long as I can. Well, take a look at this, a tale of two CeCes. What a roller coaster ride it's been. His first six starts pitching to a 1-3-9 ERA. Next four, nearly eight. Next six, back down around the two mark and then last four, six, three, eight. Tonight, giving up two runs over three innings. Jack.


We're coming to the end of our series of Just Society Facebook Live chats, so I'm here with colleagues with Helene and Paula and Michelle, and I've brought a cake along, partly to celebrate this series of conversations about justice, partly because, as we heard the other week from Jackie Gabb, it's the 50th anniversary today of the Royal Ascent being given to the Sexual Offences Act of 1967, which decriminalised male homosexual acts in private. Between consenting adults, and that's an example of the journey that we've come as a society. And that phrase, Just Society, obviously can be taken in different ways. We're primarily interested in how we develop a fairer society. But sometimes people say, oh, it's just society. That's what happens. People have got attitudes to people who are different, and that's just the way it is. And then sometimes they say, there's no such thing as society. Most famously Margaret Thatcher said there's no such thing as society. But she didn't really mean that. She used to say there's no such thing as lots of things. There's no such thing as a free lunch. There's no such thing as government money. It's taxpayers' money, she meant. What she was trying to say was, there's only you, you and me. There's us. So rather than say society's got to do something about the child who's being neglected, what she meant was somebody's got to take some action. And if all else fails, the state should step in. But she was actually praising the NSPCC, the children's charity that does so much good work. And so although she's criticised for that, she's also part of this conversation about what kind of society are we in, what kind of society do we want. And we've heard from a number of Open University academics, researchers in this area of citizenship and governance. For instance, my colleague Rob Herrin talking about how can we have fairer elections given that we live in a digital age. There's all that technology there. Can we use it to make elections fairer? Jackie Gabb has spoken to us twice about just society. First of all, talking about her own research into sexual relationships and family kinship relationships in a time of crisis. How does it feel if there's Brexit happening or President Trump being elected if you are in an unusual family setup, for instance? We heard from a new colleague, Eduardo Ongoro, who was talking about how people in the rest of the European Union view Brexit, view us, and what they think about how the UK looks at Europe. We heard from Les Budd about the possible breakup of the United Kingdom. Will there still be a United Kingdom or Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, England go to some extent separate ways? We heard from Jane Roberts just after the election on what it's like as a politician on losing office. And we heard from Hugh MacFall about legal aid and the question, can you have a just society if we haven't got fair and free access to legal aid if we need it? Actually, the Supreme Court decided this week, very much in Hugh's favour, that the government had done the wrong thing in trying to put a high hurdle in there if you wanted to take your employer to a tribunal and charging over £1,000 to deter people. But the Supreme Court said that's unfair, that's unjust, that's not a fair society. So, in my role as director of the strategic research area for citizenship and governments, I get to have the opportunity to have these conversations all the time. It's a privilege, it's important, and obviously my colleagues and I are going away and reading and thinking and listening to people in between times. So, for instance, Hugh and I carried on our argument and I said to him, well, he was saying that just because some lawyers are very rich doesn't mean that other lawyers shouldn't be supported from the public purse to help poorer people. For instance, in the Grenfell Tower tragedy, and I said, well, it is another way of putting that, that there are top chefs, celebrity chefs, TV chefs, Nigella, Delia, Mary Berry, Jamie Oliver, but the fact that they get lots of money doesn't mean that we shouldn't pay those who run a soup kitchen or a food bank who are helping disadvantaged people because the stars aren't going to come and do that anyway and there's not enough of them and they wouldn't necessarily have the mass catering skills. But surely the volunteers who are helping, they're doing great work, but shouldn't they be recompensed for their time. And so the same with lawyers, there are great lawyers you hear of doing high profile cases, but they're not the people who are going to be helping the resident of a tower block who says, I don't feel safe. And so we have these conversations and we wanted this series to get you thinking and please do give your responses to us on how we can create a more just society. But picking up the chef theme, one of the things which comes through in a lot of discussions is this metaphor of a cake. Here's one I made earlier, well actually my wife Patricia made this cake and the reason I brought it in is that I've often heard this in philosophy seminars that society's wealth is like a cake and the issue is how do we slice it up and the assumption is that we slice it up equally. Now in fact there's a whole book on equality and cakes by a couple of people, Keith Joseph who was a colleague of Margaret Thatcher and Jonathan Sumption who at the time was a young history don in Oxford. This was in 1979, the year I took my final exams. Jonathan Sumption has now become a Supreme Court justice. He probably wouldn't necessarily like to be reminded about this book, but anyway there's lots of stuff on cakes. Cakes, they're use and abuse and what they say is the assumption always in politics is you cut the cake equally and there are four of us here. That would be a very big slice wouldn't it, but let's say you divide it up into let's say eight. That's the way you do it if there are eight people in your little society and they say that's absolutely wrong. Now if you think they're wrong then it's good to read this book or to be provoked if you like to think well is that right? Now in my last job which was director of the Cambridge Theological Federation I went along to a residential seminar of people who wanted to become Anglican clergy. So they were doing an online course a bit like the open university but they had the equivalent of a summer school and they were in groups of eight and they all had a cake in front of them and there were about eight groups of eight and they were asked to divide the cake up fairly to have a just cake distribution and really they all were just going right I'm going to do it like that equal slices. I thought I wasn't meant to speak but they could see that I looked amazed so they tried to draw me in one of the groups and I said well at birthday parties for our children then not now but when our children were little or at weddings you don't divide up the cake just like that into these big slices you tend to cut into little squares and actually people at weddings often seem to me I don't know if this is right but they seem to have prepared more cake and they cut up into kind of little cubes for people to take away. So I was saying that there would be clergy who are meant to be very other regarding worried about the poorest in society well why don't you cut it into 16 and then give half of it away. I mean you're talking about yourselves or you could cut up different slices because people sometimes say I'd like a thinner slice please they don't always mean that but they say that. And so you could take the top off I mean you can slice it in all sorts of different ways. And Keith Joseph and Jonathan's assumptions say in any event the whole cake metaphor is completely wrong because the assumption is it's about redistribution of cake as if the cake was distributed in the first place but actually one person in this case Patricia my wife bought the ingredients brought her creativity to bear and made it. It's her cake so if she wants to slice in a different way is the stating title to take the cake off her and say no it's got to be even or put another way particularly for the clergy there. Suppose somebody's actually genuinely hungry wouldn't you expect to give them the whole cake rather than say yeah but I'm in society as well I'd like my share. And so whatever the metaphor you choose I think there's a lot in this idea of a just society that we can explore. And we do it partly by having conversations by reflecting on what these great researchers have been doing partly by reading but I think that the arguments are crucial for us to have and in our studies at the European University and elsewhere we may get insights from different disciplines so Jackie Gabb is a sociologist, Rob Herrian is a lawyer and so on. Les Budd has come from an economics background and in fact Keith Joseph and Jonathan's assumption say that the cake argument is really an economic one and it also misunderstands cakes and economics. That the issue is, and you've heard this in politics, how big is the cake going to be? How do we get more cake? And if you keep taking off the people who've got the creativity and make it then you'll find that there won't be so much cake making. What can we do as individuals then? All of the people watching and listening to this. For the man or woman out there, what are your top tips then for people to participate and create a just society? Well, unlike the government who have been saying, which is another reason for this metaphor, they've been saying that on Brexit we want to have our cake and eat it.  And the baker said no because we don't support gay marriage and then it's turned into a huge route. Unlike those, I think you have to understand when it's a metaphor, when the topic is something that is beyond what you can resolve yourself. But also, as you rightly say, you've also got to take some action, you've got to do things. And a lot of people have, for instance, adapted their lifestyles in terms of the environment sustainability. They've become greener because they eventually recognise what may have seemed a slightly outlandish argument in politics. And they've absorbed it into their personal lives. And so what I would say we can do is adapt the way in which we look at issues at problems in society. I've given a different example altogether of any issue is like when you're looking at a cathedral and you look at it from different perspectives and it looks different. But that's partly because of where you are. And so when you paint a picture of the cathedral, what's happening is you think you're describing the cathedral, but actually you're telling me whether you're painting from the left or the right politically or from the east or the west. And so every time you paint a picture of what you mean by a just society, I think I get a sense of you as a person and vice versa. And so it is important to debate it. And the final thing I wanted to quote is from another book. This is by Dorothy Emmett, The Moral Prism. And just the very first paragraph says that people sometimes think of moral judgement as some kind of shining white light. And that's it. You've either got the light or you're in darkness. But in fact, if you think of it as a prism that you've got the different colours, who's to say that green or pink or blue or red or whatever it is is the right colour. That's the way it seems to us. That's the colour we focus on. But understanding that there is a kind of rainbow coalition out there has been very important for this issue of gay rights, for instance. And we've certainly moved as a society. And one of the things I was asking Jackie about is how did it suddenly happen in the last 10 of those 50 years that we got these moves? And I think it's because the momentum comes from thousands of little conversations, little actions that people undertake. So what happens is my wife studied the law. That's how we met when we were both studying the law. But then she did a degree, a master's in ethnic musicology, the anthropology of music. And we both learnt quite a bit from that, I think, about how different societies see music. And we in the West assume it's about musical talent, it's about performing. But in some of the Pacific Islands where anthropologists were spending time, actually listening is prized. And people understand that without an audience you don't really have a performance. And so in that way you may study something, you have conversations, you have political arguments. And then maybe five, ten years on it just affects you a little.  And you react differently to how you would have done 20 or 30 years ago, partly because you've been having these arguments about what society should do. So that's I think what this Just Society series has been about. And it's been a real pleasure to get the feedback from students and others and to have the opportunity to converse with colleagues. So thank you very much to everybody involved in working towards a more Just Society.


I have a farmers agency in also Oklahoma and this is my second year. I have two producers on my team. Obviously for a little while it was just me and I was overwhelmed with trying to learn insurance. You know, I wasn't even thinking about sales or sales skills. And I didn't really know how to coach my people on how to sell. Having access to your scripts, your program has allowed me to focus more on other things as opposed to constantly sitting right there next to my producers and trying to think about, well, what do I say? What would I say? You know, and how can I script this out for them? So it's allowed me to coach my team more effectively and be more efficient with my time. And like your weekly calls, I don't have to sit there on a Monday and think about, what am I going to set aside time to take a break from selling and coach my team? I just know that on Wednesdays we'll tune into your call. So it takes away the burden of training being completely on me because I have something I can give to my team. It's given me structure, I think, for my agency for sure and given me a game plan. It's been an excellent investment for me as an agency owner. Five or six years from now it'll be valuable to me because when I hire someone, I have a curriculum. All they are ready to go. Again, I don't have to do it. I'll do it with them. But it's giving me these pre-packaged tools that I can use forever, you know, as long as I'm in the agency and that I can reference forever and lean back on. And I also know that you guys are there. You know, I'm on your website. It's easy to get help when I need it. I mean, it was definitely worth it for me.