Hello, hello, and thank you all. Hi, James, we're sure glad that you made it. We're all here now this week. We've got Marion over to my side here. We've been working just furiously on her week, and we're going to show her discoveries in a few minutes. Below her is her incredible captain, Emma Macbeth, keeping people going this week, and keeping those resources up, and then, of course, James Tanner, who I'll be introducing at the end. So, first quickly, I want to go ahead and just say for anybody that doesn't know what we are, now, WikiTree is a community of genealogists who are working together on a single family tree. So, in other words, we collaborate to grow an accurate and global tree that connects us all, and it's free. Now, the WikiTree Challenge has been our year-long event and part of our year of accuracy, where each week a team of WikiTreeers takes on a guest star's branches, and we collaborate to make it more accurate and complete here than it is anywhere else. Now, our goal, of course, is to improve the accuracy on WikiTree, make more family connections, and make more friends, and we have definitely done all three of those this year. Once again this week, we worked on the branches of Marion Burkewood, and so I'm going to hand things over to Emma so she can go ahead and tell you what we found. Straight to me, okay.  This was definitely a tough week. We were working in Eastern Europe, and those records are difficult to come by. They're usually not indexed. If we can find the right records for the area that we're looking for, then we have the language barrier. They're often in multiple different languages. The countries were often owned by different people, different countries at the time, and that switches back and forth with means of languages which is that before. So lots of challenges, and I was really proud of team members who just dug in and worked with records that maybe they'd never seen before. They were asking for help with language translation and was absolutely amazing. And I even saw some sources I'd never heard of. The candle tax, Mindy, wasn't that one that you brought to our attention? What country was it? Yes. We were talking about the candle and the box tax in Lithuania. Lithuania. And, right. And what was that? Well, basically really what they were is they were two taxes that were set specifically for the Jewish population. And so the candle tax is what they taxed all Jewish people and they used the money for the school, for the children's education. And their reasoning was they used candles on the Sabbath. So therefore they had to pay a tax on them. And then of course we had the box tax. And that one was a little bit harder to get information about as far as how they were actually collecting that. But that was another Jewish tax. And what they did is they taxed them on kosher meat. And I just wanted to bring that up because it's so interesting. These aren't things you normally would think of when looking for genealogy records. And it goes to prove that you can find information about people just about anywhere if you just keep digging into the available records. So let's start with the reveal. Solomon Elias Burke line. Let me look at the tree while I'm talking about this was born 1845, living in the, I can't pronounce that, but Lithuania and was born 1901. And the record was it the birth record that was found, Mindy, that had his father's name. That actually was a population census record. Okay. Population census record that showed that his father's name was Meyer. So we were able to add an additional generation onto the Burke line. Yeah. And I found it really, well, interesting, but sad. And of course we came across several things that were just kind of heart crushing while you're looking and Mary and I know you already know this, but they were talking about when the country was overtaken and how the records, they tried to flee with some of them. And so some of the Jewish records are in Russia now or other places. And the ones that were behind no longer had caretakers. And not only that, but they went through a paper shortage. And so this is horrifying as a genealogist, they were taking these vital records and they were using the paper to start fires. Right? And so things like this 1901 census are some of the few ways now you can actually go in and reconstruct these family records. Just incredible. That's unbelievable to even think of them doing that. Okay, so we were hoping to find documentation to prove that Nex made a name with Shuham. It was supposed to be on the Social Security documents, but we couldn't find that. So we were unable to prove whether she was related to Anna Hinda, my top mythic. I'm gonna be butchering names all evening. And this was the story, I guess, that was in the blog article, A Tale of Two Sisters. And it would have been nice to figure out how they were related, but we tried, we tried, we tried. And that wasn't... That hurts, gonna keep floating by. Yeah, Emma and her team, I mean, Emma and her team, they just spent countless hours on this stuff. And every time you peek in, they're like still honed in on what they're trying to locate. Yeah, every time we, you can imagine, every time something new popped up, my tiered. We did find a death certificate from Meyer Mahler, which is, oh, that's a beautiful document. It's supported that he was a tailor, which we thought we already knew. And there's the evidence of it on the death record. His birthplace was listed as Kovno Russia. His father was said to have been born in Riga, Russian, Russian empire, and his mother also in the same place. So maybe that will give some additional clues for that next generation of where to look. And I think there's a lot more records available for the Riga area. It doesn't seem to be as, you know, destroyed as some of the other ones that people looked in. Okay, the Jacob's line. Look on the tree here, see where we're at. There we are. Okay, didn't find anything new about Tilly Rose Jacobs Mahler. Her birthplace was either Riga or Latvia. She married Meyer Mahler. Meyer Mahler, Taylor. Tongue twister. And I know that came to New York, and she and Meyer had at least nine children and lost two at a young age. Wolf at age three and then Sundell at one day old. And Tilly was then widowed at age 50. However, records were found for her brother, Joseph Jacobs, who married Eva Michalowski. In 1900, they lived next door, which you can see right there in that image. They lived next door to Tilly along with three of their five children. And Joe was a peddler and he lived to the age 54 and died in New York City. Okay, let's see. Moving on to Shorts. Okay, here we go. We were not able to prove siblings for Herman. Is that Yehuda? Terrible. Thank you. I know we worked a lot on this, looking at lots of records, trying to sift through, trying to prove who do these records belong to the person we're looking for or are they somebody completely different? So when it says extensive research, that's what we were doing. Looking through all the records for the area, all the records for anyone with similar names. Thank you, John. And so as much as possible, anytime we sifted through records, we tried to leave breadcrumbs for you in research notes on the profiles. So we would say, okay, we looked here, didn't find this or we proved this record wasn't part of this family. So keep a lookout for those research notes. Okay, moving on to the Farkas line. Did a lot of work on this line too. Kathy Evans started a space page for you. That's basically a one-name study of, we were looking at all the Farkas's we possibly could. And so she has Farkas's listed from the Bot Pallad area and the records that are for those different people. So that might again be breadcrumbs. These people may be related in some way. These clues are so wonderful. I'm gonna follow up. I really appreciate it. Never know what that one tiny little clue is that will get you to that next piece of information. Okay, so we're still on the Farkas line. Yes, we were definitely puzzled, puzzled, puzzled on Moritz. And lots, and you know also with Jewish names, you can find people under different versions of their name, which can be very challenging. And we kept going back and forth. Wait a minute, is this the same person? We're seeing different names here. His tombstone said his father was Yehuda, but we got looked at his death record and his father was Fred, or friends. And so I think we decided those were the same person, right, Mindy? Yes, yes, we did. Okay, and based on that, we were able to also prove that Simon was his brother. So we were able to fit some puzzle pieces together based on finally figuring out that these were actually the same person that we were looking at. Simon is a new name for my tree, folks. Yeah. Oh, yay. We like the new word, woohoo. Yes, we were trying to find siblings as much as possible, new siblings out there on the tree, because those often can lead to, and you're gonna see later how it was a sibling that gave us some information. Oh, and it's on this line, as a matter of fact. Moving down to the counselor line. So this was in Hungary, and you've done a lot of research on that, but we were able to find some new information on her sister, let's see, this is Lenny, okay? Her sister, Sarah, who married Bernath Roth, a handler, and had seven children. Three of those children died young and at least two grew up and got married, and we have birth and death records for them. Wonderful. So there's a list of the children there on that page, and it links to all the different records. This is wonderful because I know my cousin who was named after Sarah, counselor Zolly was her name, and I have a cousin whose name, middle name is Zolly, after her, so I can't wait to tell her. Yay. That's very exciting. Woohoo. Okay, Lenny's brother, Joseph, counselor was also researched, and he and his wife, Helen Schoenfeld had five children. Joseph lived to the age of 65, well after his children had reached adulthood, and there's a list of his five children which are on his profile with the documents. That's awesome. And I know we were talking, Mary, and before we came on the air about, you know, the fact that you get to work sideways now when you do your own research because you are connected to the global tree, which will help. Yes, that's great. But also with these, you know, these additional siblings and their children where you had talked about like the wife's family and different families that you know were all related in here somewhere, you're gonna see some of those names popping up. So definitely lots to look at. Okay, breaking news. Yes, this is our 11th hour exciting, like, oh my gosh, this happened right like two hours ago. It was so very exciting. And again, it was because we were looking at siblings that we were able to find, let me look at the tree again. We're on Samuel or Schmell, I don't know how to pronounce that. Consular, we were looking at a brother. Was it a marriage record? I feel like it was a marriage record where it listed the parents. It does, yes. And we were able to find the parents for Samuel and those have been added to the tree just like an hour ago. So that was so exciting. Emma, that takes us way back into the early 1800s now, the earliest I have in my tree. Yes, this is the oldest. You now have third grade grandparents on your tree for the first time. That is very, very, very exciting. Thank you to Jackie who was helping us. Was it the Hungarian records she was working through? She just went, you know, every time you turn around she was picking another village. And for some of us that were researching, you know, we were doing what we could because we could read the records. But without the geography that goes with it, you know, and she would know, oh, this village makes sense. I'll look in this one. And so she just sat there and paged through record after record in these villages looking for stuff. You know, and of course, we had Louis Kessler this week. Thank you very much, Louis, to ask questions of if people had, yeah, there was a heart. If people had questions about the names or how things should be formatted. And I know after we got that exciting news from Jackie, he was working on adding that new person. So you'll be able to go and see his children and his family after this. It was very, very exciting. And there may be more information, but because this was so brand new that we just barely have touched that information. So it's worth digging into and seeing how much more can now be found. Hopefully more new cousins. Yay, on that section of the tree. I know, which is what we like. And this was so last minute.  And just to show people the, you know, this is extensive amount of research that Marion had done. And, sorry, my mouse was not listening to me.  It is definitely so, so much harder to work on like the Lithuanian and the Hungarian lines. And so, you know, we could only take it out so far, but doing her wiki tree branches now, which should be really, really complete. And then I know Marion's excited about going in and fleshing out her grandparents and the people that are closer to her. But as far as the other ones building out, those profiles are beautiful. Once again, you have some really great notes from, you know, everybody that worked on it this week. If they didn't find something new, hopefully you can with a, you know, laundry list of sources and whatnot that we have checked. And, you know, and then you'll definitely want to check out the space page. Once again, if we would have had two weeks for this, we probably would have had a few more one-name studies going, like, you know, we would have added the shorts to that and we would have added a few more. But definitely a lot of fun. Jackie's pointing out it is definitely a real work of collaboration and of course it is. You know, we have people that are reading the records, but we also have people that are helping in other ways that don't get the mention.  You did a fabulous job. You did a fabulous job. I'm so impressed. You took me back a generation. You also helped me laterally. And any research notes that you left from me are going to be things I can follow up on and build on. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the head start you gave me on in 2022, taking my work in progress and taking it to the next level. And also, Mindy touched on this, but we got you connected to the global tree. So I don't know if you know what that means, but now you can go to any profile anywhere on Wikitree and click at the link at the bottom and see how you were related to them. So that's a very exciting feature that Wikitree has. That is, we love our connections and we love our relationships too. So everybody was waiting for it to refresh that we could check and go, oh, okay, we would connect through this line. And now I've got it. We like our cool tools at Wikitree. Our people work really hard to give us some really neat apps and widgets and things that we can work with and work on our family. But that's just one of the smaller perks that we have a little fun with. So yeah, you'll get to use those now. And if you have any questions that I'll definitely reach out, we can help you learn how to use those. Thank you so much. I cannot tell you what this means to me. It's just a gift. Thank you all for working so hard on my tree. And it was our honor. We kind of invite ourselves into people's lives when we do this, when we come in and we play with our ancestors' branches. But to me, it was just such a beautiful gift to be able to give to somebody else. We all work together anyways, on different projects and different things that we do and we see each other around the Wikitree branches all over the place. But this has been just a really eye-opening experience this year. And it's been wonderful to give this gift to our guests. Thank you. Okay, so now I get to talk a little bit about the points and how we work things here. Collaboration, of course, once again, is key during the challenge. And that's what Wikitree is all about. And so that makes sense. Now, one of the ways that we collaborate is to use a spreadsheet that you see on the left, that when you get 25, 35 people working on the same branches. And trust me, we had quite a few this week and it was even harder because we were starting from such a small base. You really wanna say, hey, I'm working on this one so somebody else isn't researching the same exact thing or so that you're collaborating if they are. One of the other ways is to use our G2G forum, which is our genealogist genealogist forum. We post announcements in there, we ask for help. We put questions. We go ahead and do a post for each guest and you'll get a link to that, Marianne. And that shows questions that somebody had or if they say, hey, I found this, does anybody know anything about it? Just different things we can do. And normally that is where we post our brick walls that are down. I'm not sure if the last edition got posted on there, hopefully so. And then the third way is Discord. And I tell you, we need that. We really do. We have loved the move over to Discord as a platform for our live chat.  So we have people all over the world that come in and work on these challenges. And at any time of day or night, there's somebody, you know, if I wake up early and it's four a.m. here, somebody, people have already been working for hours somewhere and they're like, yeah, Mindy, this is what we're doing. You know, and we ask for translation help in there. Second set of eyes for a record. Here we did a lot of small grouping up and said, you know, hey, this is what we're trying to find. You know, the park is lying in this area and everybody can take a different set of records and we can just sit there and go through them.  And it makes you feel like, you know, somebody's aware that you're doing a good job and you're still working on things. So it's all important. And everybody plays their part in it. And well, it's not about points. We do use a point system to keep people motivated and it kind of keeps you aware of your progress. Now, there's two ways to earn points during the week. We have the large one, which is the bounty points and that's 10 points for the first new ancestor or corrected ancestor that we reach on each branch. The second way is the individual points for adding children. And those can normally add up. And with your week, of course, you know, we didn't have as many people to add, but let me tell you, people already felt a sense of accomplishment. Like Emma said, every time, you know, somebody would find something, everybody was like, hooray, yeah. You know, knowing just how difficult it would be to find one new piece of information. And so we do, though, look at the scores at the end of the week. And the person with the top score is our MVP, most valuable player. We also like to acknowledge the top five participants. And so here is what we had for this week. Now, Cheryl Hess was our MVP because she was the only one with bounty points for most of the week. And so actually Jackie should be up there, but she hadn't signed up. Like I said, she did this out of the goodness of her heart, which, you know, yeah, wiki tree, that is what we do. We, you know, those of us in the different projects, we volunteer our time and our passion, you know, to get things done. We had Melanie McComb, which really nice in there. She's a prior guest and Deb Johnston and then Tommy Buck. And so kind of a different mix on our top five this week than what we usually have. And then I am going to go ahead and show the score sheet. And I think that's, let's see if we can go in just a little bit. And that's where you can see, you know, there isn't necessarily like really big scores this week, but once again, if we got one point, we were ecstatic. You know, if we got zero points cause we found out something on a sibling, we were just over the moon. So it was really a lot of fun, but this is how we break the points down. Now total points is everything that person got. And so Cheryl has 11 points this week. Go Cheryl. And then we do created ancestors. So you had a total of 10 direct ancestors created over and above what you already had on your branches. So for us, that was really huge created relatives. Now it says one, but that's because we don't count like the siblings and this, you know, and their kids and stuff like that. We still want to work on them cause we want your tree to be complete, but we don't get points for that. And then the bounty point should actually be at 30. That would be, you know, 10 for the first one that we found Meyer as the father. And then of course the 20 points for Samuel's parents. So that should have been 30. Now profiles edited and keeping in mind once again that we're out of a small selected area, 155 unique profiles edited, that's a big number. You know, that really is. And then of course we had 382 edits. So every time somebody went in and fixed a date, they added a source, they did something, you know, they got the contribution showed up. And Chris here is saying, Chris F, I got a modest seven points, LOL. You know what, it definitely wasn't about the points. It was about the, you know, the information that we could find and give to Marion. So I don't think any of us were worried about points this time. Okay, and then if we don't have any other questions, yeah, and Chris says quality over quantity and definitely, you know, we want that quality to be there. We want those profiles to be complete. We want them to be accurate. You know, if there was it anyway possible for us to link those documents on the profile out to the sources, then of course we did that. And also, you know, if we could actually upload it without violating any copyright laws, we do that too.  And if there's something you really can't find that we came up with, just let me or Emma know, and you know, and we'll make sure we can get that to you. Cause I know, you know, you're gonna want those for your family books. Thank you so much. You folks worked really, really hard. I can see it. I appreciate everything. And the brick wall isn't everything. It's making the tree more complete and more accurate that you have done for me. Thank you. Okay, we need the heart one more time there, Marianne. There you go, everybody. That's what Marianne's love. Cause you guys were incredible. You just were incredible. Okay, and next we're gonna go ahead and talk a little bit about James Tanner. And he is not only our guest this week, but he is our final guest for the 2021 wiki tree challenge. So it kind of just stuns you that we're actually at the end of this, doesn't it, Emma? I mean, it feels like we just started this yesterday. I know, and then here we're going, wow, we've done that many guests that we actually hit the end just crazy. And so here we have Mr. Tanner and he has degrees in Spanish and linguistics, a law degree and 39 years experience as an Arizona trial attorney. He's an avid blogger of genealogy star. He spent 17 years as a family history volunteer, board of directors of the Family History Guide Association and presents at expos and conferences. And I'm sure there's much more that I'm missing, James. Is there anything important that I've left out of that? Well, I have 34 grandchildren and a nice wife. Oh, my goodness, that's important too. You got me way beat. I've only got 11 so far. I got a ways to go. So that's probably the one thing.  You've done some volunteer time and you like to make sure that people get information about how to do things better. So what actually got you interested in genealogy? Well, my family, probably my relatives, great grandmothers and other relatives have probably been involved in doing family history research for over 100 years, probably 120 or more years. And it wasn't like I was really interested.  And we were, but I had been told constantly, I guess kind of a background thing is, oh, well grandma did all this work everything's been done. You can, you don't have to worry about all that, all your genealogy's been done. And I had an occasion where I was involved in, let's say a challenge to get my, to get some additional basic information about my family. And as a result of that, I ended up finding out that no, it wasn't all done. As a matter of fact, I was, I guess a little bit decided to get a little bit aggravated that I'd been told all my life that this was all done and it wasn't. And so I just started in, never stopped. I'm still going after, this has been going almost 40 years now, but I've been. And there's definitely no end to genealogy. We are always working on our ancestors and trying to discover new things. Now, if you had to pick one favorite, who would you pick? Favorite ancestor? Well, the one that I've always known, that I know the most about and never met and it was Henry Martin Tanner. And he lived in a little town in Northern Arizona called Joseph City. And he was a pioneer. He was, he and his wife, right after they got first married were called as volunteer missionaries, as missionaries to go down and settle along the, what's called the little Colorado river in Northern Arizona. And it's probably the most desolate, most uninviting place you could ever go. And they lived there for the rest of their lives. And really only left a few times. I mean, they made a few trips around, but other than that, they stayed there and lived and they had, it was during the time when the members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints practiced polygamy and he had two wives and he had 17 children. Wow. And out of that are some of the most influential and some of them, in fact, the largest employment corporation in Arizona was owned by his grandson's. So out of living in the desert out there in the desert, all of the children all became judges and lawyers and doctors and heads of corporations. So it was kind of an incredible person. So, yeah. Now, what kind of interesting stories have you found out about your family? Oh, a lot of interesting stories about my family. I don't know, where would you start with all of the stories that there are? They're just, they were, you know, I guess a lot of people are motivated by the fact that they think they're going to connect to royalty or they're gonna connect to a famous person or whatever. The more I did, the more I figured out well, everybody I'd ever been descended from was poor and nearly destitute. I think one of the most interesting stories is one of my great-great-grandfather and some of the other people who were, some of my other lines, I have two lines, but two of my family lines that go to where the people came through Australia. And I think that's to me the most, some of the most interesting part. Probably the most one interesting story is that the family who came, they left England and came to Australia. They weren't transported, they weren't criminals. What happened at that period of time is that the parishes, and this was in Huntingtonshire in England, the parishes were really kind of too tight-walled to have poor houses. So they didn't like the idea. And they had passed a law in England allowing for families to be transported. They were encouraging families, well, encouraging them saying, well, if you don't go, you're gonna start to death. But that was kind of their encouragement. But what they said was they needed people in Australia because they were trying to consolidate their hold over the continent in the British Empire. So they actually paid the way of the whole family to go to Australia. And the interesting thing is that they were non-conformist, meaning they were not members of the Church of England, but they all had to be baptized before they would send them to England. So we find the families, those families that went, all of the children were baptized on the christened on the same day. So- Oh, that's funny. So there's interesting things like that. So what we get is they arrived there and then one of the daughters married a transported person who was living there in Australia. And then he got a divorce from her. Well, I don't know if there was ever a formal divorce, but he left her and ran off with her sister. And then they, because of the law at that time, once he married someone in Australia, he was released from his obligation as a criminal. So in other words, he was given a pardon for being a criminal. And they were really desperate to have people to live there. But he ended up taking his wife back to England and they had a family. And so now I have families that go through Australia and their descendants. And then one of the member, one of the families, the state police and one of the members of the other family, the Parkinson's got married. And then they came to them, they got married coming to America on the boat. And when they got here, of course those are my grandparents, my great-grandparents. Now did India actually stay in Australia? Oh yeah, the whole rest of the family did. So I have an innumerable number of relatives now in Australia as well as a lot of other places around the world. So it's just kind of interesting how that whole history and what we found was all the records. The guy who married my great-grand, great-great-grand, great-great-great-grand, we found his arrest record, his arraignment, his trial records, his sentencing, his transportation record, his arrival in Australia record. I mean, we traced that guy every step all the way to Australia and then all the way back to England. So it's been an interesting, a lot of those kings have been quite interesting and quite a discovery. But there's thousands of those stories. Well, that's part of what's fun though is finding ways to help bring those ancestors back to life and make them personable and see them as something besides a name on a census record or... Yeah, no, they're very much so that's very important for people to understand that they're still people, they're people and they deserve being remembered. Now, when did you first discover Wickey Tree? I don't know, but here's an interesting thing I thought I'd show you. So, a long time ago, a long time would right after you folks probably started the Wickey Tree as I'm sure we, I really don't know how I got, you know, how I learned about it, but I know I talk to, I used to talk to everybody at Roots Tech every year. Right, and we're always there, but yeah, definitely with a green trim on that shirt, that one's, you've had it for a while. Very much. Now, who would you say are your toughest brick walls right now? Oh, well, you know, the ultimate one is William Tanner, but that's the kind of brick wall where it's not necessarily a brick wall of too little information, it's a brick wall of too much information. He was, he's may be the immigrant, we don't know, but if he was the immigrant, then he came to New England in 16, in the early mid to late 1600s, probably around 1680, but in doing the research over the years, my line back to him, to his son, Francis Tanner, is, I mean, we don't even have enough space on the places to put all the, or time to put up all the records that we found, but we have enormous amounts of records, but once it gets to William Tanner, the problem is that we, I found ultimately that there were probably 10 people living in Rhode Island with exactly the same name at the same time, and they all have, of course, different wives, and the problem is they named everybody in that town, Mary or Elizabeth or whatever, and so you're gonna find multiple wives with people with the same name. The issue that is created was that the surname books, one of the which I mentioned was written back in 19, there were two written in 1914, William Tanner of North Kingston and William Tanner of South Kingston, couldn't make up his mind, and the two books, both of them have speculation, they, if no, they're not, there's no facts. Unfortunately, what's happened over the years is that people have just read the books and copied those names into their family trees. So there's a, you know, the more research you do, the more blowback you get from all of the people who say, well, this was really his wife, and I say, well, okay, show me a record. Well, it says in the book that this was his wife. I said, no, it doesn't say in the book that it was his wife. Anyway, so this is kind of the ongoing thing that's been going on for good 40, 25 or 30 years of often on doing research. So it was helpful. Yeah, definitely makes it difficult with a common name. Yeah, I basically went back through all the New England records and the town records and found the tax records and the probate records and all of the other records that went on with, you know, every court record and the witnesses records for every one of the, all the way back to him. And when I get back to William, then I just keep finding a lot of William Tanners, but I don't ever find the connection directly except from Francis, who says that his brother is named Nathan and that he had a brother named Benjamin that he got land from. And then when we go get going, the next step would be the William, they look at the brothers and Nathan has a birth record that shows that his father's name was William and his mother's name was Elizabeth. And so there we go. We have a name, but we don't have any way of knowing which William and which Elizabeth it was. There's actually a burial, a burial record, a burial plot. Part of it is a cemetery, but they're buried outside the cemetery and it's, I've been able to show that that's actually very close to where the land was that they owned and that Francis Tanner had a home and William, you know, William Tanner had the home. It's on the third tee of a country club in Rhode Island. And I've always thought, well, yeah, that's pretty normal for Tanners to be. Anyway, so there's the top one. The biggest one, who would you say is number two? Oh, David Shepard. David Shepard's a verified revolutionary war veteran who died a popper, died without a penny. Oh, money to everybody when he died. And there's a pension file, there's probate records, there's everything, nothing tells who his father was. There's not a record ever showed up that says anything about who his father was. And we've had a couple of people try to make up fathers, but they've always never had a record. They just pick some name and tie somebody to them. And there are lots of Shepards. It's not an uncommon name. And it was not uncommon in New England. So it gets a little bit difficult, but that one's always been out there. And I just, just in the last couple of weeks, kind of made a breakthrough in it because I found a, well, I should have known this a long time ago, but without the internet, you would never find this stuff. Right. So basically, I found a book called Shepard Families of New England, and it was by Donald Lines Chacobos. And I went, oh, well, what does he have to say? Anyway, he has separated, Lines separated everybody into the Shepard families by the known ancestor, in other words, the verified ancestor. So he has all these Shepard families that are not interrelated. He has no connections between those families, but just, because Shepard is a, you know, it's a generic, it's an occupational name. It's a, right. So it's like Tanner, you know, we're not all Tanners are not related. And so he did that. And at the end of the book, he has an appendix and the appendix is David Shepard. And he said, nobody, we've gone through every record that is, you know, we know of an existence and we have not found this person. We don't know who he is. So you never know. Well, it sounds like you definitely have some challenging lines. Well, the problem with early New England immigrants, and this is probably something that not too many people are aware of. And that is that there was a significant number of people who came from Western Europe and primarily from Great Britain, the British Isles who were transported in the sense that they were either transported as criminals or they came across as indentured servants. And the estimate is as high as 40% of the people who came early on. And so many people say, well, my ancestor couldn't have been an indentured servant because he was rich and he owned land. And I said, well, that's what happened when you got to America, but that's not what they had in England. Right. And so it's always in the back of the mind, they're likely when you hit one of those immigrants at that early time that doesn't show up in the Great Migration or any of the other books or any of the other studies that they changed their name. When they got here, they saw that there was free land someplace, so they just walked away from their indenture and changed their name and became somebody else.  And there's no, they're so far back of course that DNA is only wildly, I mean, probably not helpful at all. So there's no way you're gonna find that family through DNA because it's gonna be like a mass of cloud of people. So anyway, those are some of the ideas and some of the background. So what do you hope to see the most and participating in our wiki tree challenge? Oh, I was just fascinated by the idea. Well, it really is something incredible to watch. My heart goes out to Marianne because that is the kind of thing that I just feel great. It's like the greatest thing is to be able to move backward with those families that are so difficult in Eastern Europe. And it's, you know, that's a great, great benefit. I live in the vast sea of 10,000 or 15,000 DNA matches and 20 to 30,000 record hints on ancestry and my heritage. Marianne says, oh, in my dreams. I mean, I could literally spend the rest of my life full-time just evaluating record hints on the major websites. There's just no time to do all that kind of stuff. And so we kind of, I just have to kind of pick my lines. My most recent one was that was a surprise to me was my, it was a line that led back to the Netherlands because that's the first time out of the British Isles that I've ever verified anything at all, so. And I saw somebody already scoping out that line earlier. Well, we couldn't help Marianne, but you know what? We can help him. Well, the Jewish line, the DePrize line, they're interesting. They were, the grandfather, the George DePrize was, there was a doctor to DePrize, but their ancestors were basically, if their ancestors were basically feather merchants for generations. And what they did was they sold the feathers that went on the headdresses of the funeral horses. And they had to, because the horses would knock them off and everything, there was like this constant need for a supply of these plumes that they had on the front of the horses. And so that's where they made their living. The rest of them were crooks, counterfeiters, and were thrown in prison, but other than that. But going back in time, it was really interesting to get back because, you know, whenever I do this, I have to learn all the history, so I have to go back and figure out the entire history of the world there. And found out that, because the connection, because of my Spanish and Central American and all of my Spanish background, it was interesting to find out that the time period or focus on the time period that Spain was actually in control of the Netherlands. And so there was the Spanish Empire in the Netherlands. And because of that, there were no Jews in the Netherlands, at least they would admit they were Jews. And so all the Jews began to show up in about 1630, 1640, because before that, they were there. And so there's kind of that barrier because once you get to that level of the 1630, whatever, ancestor, everything back to there is well documented, but past that is just free for all. Yeah, and one of the things I know we learned this year is that they don't charge for anything to do the Dutch research. All those records are free, everything is 100% free. So I know it's a little bit hard for them to understand how like in the US, we have to use ancestry and paid sites because otherwise you can't get it, some of the documents that we need. But we've done a lot of other research in our Dutch project. There's some just crazy good people in that Dutch project. They're all wonderful. And they've taught us a lot about researching those records this year and building the family trees out. And it just blows your mind, Mary, you wouldn't believe it.  Oh, no, yeah, it's, no, that's just, that's they have probably the best records going back that far. The only people that have better records are in Iceland and unless you're from Iceland, that's not much of a benefit. But Iceland has a book, for example, of a database of every person they've ever been able to identify that ever lived on the island. But the restriction is it's totally restricted. You actually have to be a resident citizen of Iceland to look at the records. They won't let anybody else into them. So it's kind of an interesting situation there. I think I could go on forever, but well, I think we are going to wrap it up because I know people are getting anxious to work on the new tree this week. I wanna thank you again, Marianne, for letting us give this gift of your ancestors to you and letting us play in your branches. I wanna thank everybody that works so hard on her research and her ancestors. And yeah, lots of Marianne love. You guys were just amazing. You never, you know, cease to amaze me. And for everybody watching here, of course, and for James for coming on this week and letting us start on to his branches as well. And I know, you know, once again, everybody's anxious to get started on the new week. I think we'll have a couple of holdovers. It'll still be looking at Marianne's records and then the rest are just gonna jump right into those Tana branches. So thank you everybody again. Don't forget, you can check us out at wikitree.com like the video, subscribe if you'd like to get notifications and we will end this for the night. See you next Wednesday. Hey, thanks. Goodnight. We'll see ya.


Unbelievable! This is outrageous! Hi everyone, I'm Alicia Anderson and welcome to the Fort Report. I was just looking over my water bill and obviously I need to cut back on my water use. Let's see. I do like to refill my water bed with fresh water every week. Maybe I can stretch that out a little longer and maybe I can start using chlorine in my swimming pool instead of just changing out the water in between swims. I don't know. I don't know what to do. If only there were some free water saving seminars I could go to. Our water saving seminars are seminars that are held every first Thursday of the month from 6 to 8 p.m. at the Botanic Gardens in the Iris Room. And the water conservation seminars are a great way for residents to learn more about how to save water in their garden, anything from native plants to how to install drip irrigation. The water saving seminars are featuring experts from Water University that's in Dallas AgriLife's system. The water saving seminars are also a great opportunity for residents to ask the experts about how to use plants in their garden, what type of mulch they should use or how to compost.  Water conservation is extremely important in Fort Worth. Here in Texas we use about 35 to 45% of the water in our homes outside on the yard. So that's a lot of water that we're just putting outside on the yard and we're not really getting any benefit from it if we're not irrigating properly. Stop by the perennial garden to view an example of native Texas plants so you can get inspiration for a water saving garden. They have all different types of perennial plants that will come back every single year. There are a lot of plants that are shade tolerant here in the garden. There are also some that are great for full sun. Pre-register for free water saving seminars at savefortworthwater.org. Here's a look at other events happening in and around Fort Worth in the next few weeks. For a listing of more events and city meetings, you always can check the calendar at the city's website.


OD's defend forward posture as essential to effective deterrence. Here's a quote from the cyberspace solarium commission with respect to defend forward. The report goes on to define defend forward in this way that wording I've highlighted in yellow seems important to me because it is in a sense a summation of all of the prior recent US practice I showed you. To defend forward we must be proactive in observing and pursuing and countering adversary operations and imposing costs again not just on our own networks but on networks of others. So how do we do this? Well we can't do it from our own networks. We must be outside our own networks and on the networks of others but that might cause significant legal implications which I hope you will get to in the question and answer period. Let me just sum up by saying where I think we are with current US practice. First the United States must be including department of defense must be proactively operating on foreign infrastructure and I again I don't have access to classified information though some of you do. I believe that now with this change we are proactively operating on foreign infrastructure. We act by permission we're feasible but by action we're not. We act in conjunction with allies and partners where possible but alone we're not. We have an increased willingness to attribute harmful cyber activities and you've seen that reflected in recent statements on attribution to various countries who have been involved in malicious cyber behavior. I would not term it as gloves off meaning no rules but I would say this more aggressive stance is a challenge to use our gloves to get involved in the fight and again to take the fight to our adversaries. Now I appreciate your patience with my slides. I am looking forward to questions and answers and I hope to talk with you in life in real life here at just a moment. Thank you Professor Jensen. Second we have Professor Ashley Deeks who previously served as a legal advisor in the Department of State and who is currently the E. James Kelly Jr. class of 1965 research professor and the director of the National Security Law Center at the University of Virginia Law School. Back to the Stockton Center for Professor Deeks initial remarks. Hi thank you for having me join this this great conference. I'm delighted to be a part of it. I am engaged in a broader project that is framed around this idea of a double black box. In the United States national security is in many ways a black box. It is hard for Congress to oversee and regulate a range of intelligence and military actions. As many of you know courts tend to be highly deferential and classification issues mean that we're forced to rely on alternatives such as leaks internal executive checks constraints imposed by foreign allies and even private companies these days that interact with the executive behind the veil of secrecy. And even with those alternative checks we're still in a highly imperfect system. So the goal of my project is to explore how adding tools such as those of machine learning specifically and artificial intelligence more generally into the national security ecosystem will exacerbate or what I'm calling double the existing black box problem that we run into in national security. So machine learning can for example exacerbate citizens abilities to know what's being done in our name. And it may also exacerbate the ability of our usual proxies to know and to understand what the executive is doing. It may even undercut the strengths of some of these other tools that we rely on such as leaks interagency negotiations the role of general councils in some room. And yet I think many people in this room might agree that we are going to come under lots of pressure to adopt these tools in the military and intelligence setting because states like Russia and China seem very firmly committed to them. So how do we pursue these tools in a way that ensures that our executive branch pursues these tools while remaining faithful to our public law values. So my inquiry is more of a domestic law inquiry than an international law one but international law obviously is a big factor in preserving those public law values by making decisions that continue to adhere to international law in the use and development use in Belarus space. Further while the project is focused on the double black box inside the United States the challenge it captures I think is likely also to hold true for a range of democratic states that are thinking about increasing their use of machine learning in the space. So how does this relate to cyber. Well I recently wrote an article in international law studies thanks to the naval war college that uses the looming likelihood of autonomous cyber operations to try to test some of these arguments. So one premise of the piece and others have suggested this as well is that we're likely to see a growing use of autonomous tools in the cyber setting both in offense and in defense. Now there's admittedly a diversity of views about the likelihood of inadvertent escalation in cyberspace above the use of force threshold but the possibility of what we might think of as flash crashes seems realistic when we're talking about two cyber algorithms that are confronting each other and having encountered each other before. We know that this kind of escalation took place in the stock market setting. Once we're thinking about the possibility of that kind of escalation it's important to consider the existing roles of parliaments and legislatures in regulating states resort to force. There are three main ways that parliaments tend to be involved in decisions about extraterritorial uses of force. They can authorize force x anti, they can authorize force x coast, and they can provide ongoing oversight and funding to the operations. So why do we value legislative involvement in use of force decisions? Well it creates an obvious avenue by which we can hold executive branches democratically accountable for their force-related decisions and there's also a body of literature that suggests that legislative involvement can help states avoid bad wars. But of course for legislators to do their jobs they need to have access to a certain flow of information and they need to possess some level of confidence to understand the tools that they're confronted with by their executive branches. For some legislatures that is a big challenge and even relatively big and well-funded committees such as those in the U.S. Congress have faced problems of getting full access to information about policies, legal interpretations and technologies that the executive branch in the U.S. is using. And in some systems the executive has a wide range of discretion to resort to force extraterritorially unless the level of armed force being deployed is significant. So against that background how will growing cyber autonomy impact the role of legislators? How will it affect the ability of democracies to ensure that decisions to resort to force remain careful and deliberate choices? Well I think it'll potentially do at least three things. First it might empower further executive branches at the expense of legislators. Legislators will have less time to weigh in especially once cyber exchanges begin. Legislators might suffer greater informational deficits about the fact that these autonomous systems exist as well as about what their capabilities are and it may be harder to audit operations ex-posts to understand what transpired especially where the tools involved the use of machine learning or deep learning. Second it could empower militaries at the expense of other ministries such as the foreign ministries, justice ministries, these other actors that often have a role to play in national security decisions. That said I do think there's some possibility that the growth of algorithm-driven decision making could actually centralize interagency conversations. If those other ministries recognize that the operations driven by machine learning will implicate laws of war domestic legal and policy issues and the lawyers in those ministries seek a role at the table in making these interpretations of domestic law and international law as the algorithms are being structured on the front end. A third thing that I think this development could do is it might end up empowering computer scientists at the expense of other actors inside these agencies such as lawyers, such as policy makers. So overall unless carefully managed I think the major concerns that cyber autonomy might increase the the number of bad or inadvertent conflicts in a way that would be reduced if there were consistent and continued legislative involvement. So how do we address these challenges? First you could see legislators doing more work to actually legislate things like the algorithms parameters in advance. So they could for example require that in most instances operations being driven by autonomous cyber systems be reversible. They might demand that the executives try to make their algorithms white white boxes rather than black boxes and they could even demand that the executives share information with them about where they have prepositioned tools inside other states systems. Legislatures could also establish cyber specific oversight committees that gain a level of sophistication about these tools. And third you could have the interagency itself collectively develop rules of engagement rather than leave that entirely to militaries or military lawyers. And in terms of the relevance of international law if NATO states are all going to confront these issues then I think it's critical to increase the level of detail of the conversations that states inside NATO have been having about the interactions potential interactions among autonomous cyber tools and to start to clarify at least among each other when those interactions will rise to a level that implicates the use at Bellum. Great thank you Professor Deeks. Finally we have Professor Pyshemic Roguski. He's a lecturer in law at Yajelone University in Krakow, Poland and an expert on cyber security and international law at the Puszczuśka Institute. Back over to the stocking center for Professor Roguski's initial remarks. Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen. My name is Thomas Hofroguski and it is both an honor and privilege to speak to you at this great conference and in such an illustrious panel. The topic of my talk today will be the topic of collective countermeasures against cyber attacks. And I would like to start by inviting you to consider the following scenario. Now let's imagine that state A's electric power grid and hospitals are targeted by a prolonged ransomware campaign which as it turns out is being directed by state B. Now state A on its own lacks sufficient cyber capabilities to make state B stop. However it has powerful allies state C and D and it asks those allies to help. Question then becomes whether state C and D which are not themselves directly injured by the ransomware campaign can nevertheless intervene on behalf of state A by instituting countermeasures against state B either in real world for instance by severing trade ties transfer transportation links and so forth or in cyberspace by targeting state B's cyber infrastructure in order to induce it to stop attacking state A. Now this topic has become prominent in the last one and a half years because it has been taken out by states. It was first taken out by Estonia during the SIPHON conference in 2015 when President Kersti Kandelweig while presenting Estonia's position on international law in cyberspace has stated and I quote that Estonia is furthering the position that states which are not directly injured may apply countermeasures to support the state directly affected by the malicious cyber operation. Several months later France responded and it responded in its document on international law applicable to operation in cyberspace by stating that and I quote again collective countermeasures are not authorized which rules out the possibility of France taking such measures in response to an infringement of another state's funds. But the question then becomes well which of those two statements is correct with respect to international law as it stands today. And we should perhaps begin by defining what we mean by countermeasures. So if we look at the law of international responsibility we will see that the countermeasures are actions by a state which normally would constitute an internationally wrongful act or violate an international obligation of that state whose wrongfulness is concluded precisely because they are taken in response to a previous international wrongful act of another state and directed against that state with the aim of inducing that state to stop its initial violation. Now under international law countermeasures can be taken by the injured or victim state and this is because enforcement under international law is essentially a bilateral nature within the law of state responsibility only the states whose interests are being directly affected can request the responsible state to stop and invoke the responsibility of that state as we say. So the question is well do third states have any role in such constellations and if we look at the articles on state responsibility which reflect the customary law in this regard we will see that other states and invoke the responsibility of the attacking state only in limited circumstances namely only if the obligation that has been reached is also a group of states not to one state individually to a group of state and crucially it is established for the protection of a collective interest of the group and not of an individual into interest of the victim state and we would call them ergo on this part as obligations or if the obligation that has been reached is opposed to the international community as a whole and we would call that ergo on this obligation. There is a further limitation or difficulty namely under the article on state responsibility even in those limited circumstances third states can invoke the responsibility of non of the responsible state only to call for the cessation of that act and to demand the performance of reparation to the benefit of the injured state the articles themselves do not mention countermeasures as such and this is because there has been a discussion within the international law commission when those articles have been drafted whether those third party countermeasures are permissible or not but there has been inserted a backdoor in article 54 namely which says that this chapter does not prejudice the right of any third state to take lawful measures against the responsible state and so the question is well would counter measures fall under this definition of lawful measures. Now this question has been studied recently and I would invoke here two major studies from 2010 and 2017 which both come to the conclusion that state practice and opinionaries is sufficiently widespread and uniform to suggest that third party or collective counter measures are permitted under customary international law however and crucially it is permitted only within those confines of article 48 so they are only permitted against violations of ergo onness or ergo onness parties obligations not against violations of individual obligations protecting individual interests of a particular state so the follow-up question is name will hand cyber attacks violate collective obligations and if we take a look at obligations ergo onness or ergo onness parties as they have been identified in the jurisprudence of the international court of justice we will see such obligations as the prohibition of aggression or genocide the prohibition of slavery or racial discrimination but I believe you will agree with me that those are not the obligations that are typically affected by cyber attacks and constellations such as the initial scenario rather obligations that are most likely to be violated by cyber attacks are for instance the obligation of non-intervention or the duty to respect the territorial sovereignty of another state if indeed you believe that such a duty exists and is applicable to cyberspace or perhaps to religions and so forth so obligations that are targeted or violated by cyber attacks usually are there to protect individual interests of states not collective interests of the international community or groups of states as evident and by those examples given from the jurisprudence of the international court of justice so the follow-up question would be are there perhaps cyber specific collective obligations that the international court of justice has not known so far and I would argue that there are none however there are certain candidates from non-binding norms which may given time and given sufficient state practice and opinion theories hardened into binding collective obligations and I would propose two the first one is the norm to protect the public core of the internet which has been discussed in many fora and has been proposed for instance by the Paris call in principle two and has found its way already in legislation in the european union and if this becomes more widespread and more states adopt such legislation followed by opinion this could well evolve into a cyber specific collective obligation the second one is the norm not to affect critical infrastructures such as hospitals or vaccine research facilities which is reflected in non-13f of the UNGGE report in 2015 and in these pandemic times I believe it is in the interest of the international community as a whole to protect those critical infrastructures and not only does this protect the individual interests of a particular state so allow me to come to my conclusions of this brief survey and the first conclusion would be that international law and the currency stands allows for collective countermeasures but only against those actions including cyber attacks which violate norms established to protect collective interest and given that most cyber attacks as we have seen you know violate such norms but rather violate norms that are there to protect individual interests by state the consequence would be that under international law as it currently stands collective countermeasures are not permitted against most cyber attacks simply because this requirement of a violation of a collective interest or norm to establish to protect the collective interest rather is not fulfilled now international law could develop to include such cyber specific collective interest norms as the ones discussed previously which we are not there yet but in the most relevant example namely in the come back to my initial scenario where there are attacks against that potentially violate obligations which protect individual interests of states for instance the interest not to be interfered with in their domain reservoir not to allow interventions from outside international law does not permit collective countermeasures and it would require further development of international law to include this possibility but this is a long way requiring lots of state practice and opinion this concludes my brief observations and I thank you for your attention and look forward to the questions great thank you professor Roguski thank you all for your remarks we'll now move to the q and a portion of the panel for our panelists I'll ask that you just turn on your videos and unmoved your microphones and I'll also reiterate what was in the chat log I'd encourage participants to put their questions in the q and a box and upload those questions that you're interested in that's why we wrote wait for those to roll in and get upvoted I'll start with a question that I was particularly interested in hearing professor Jensen respond to this is from Mike Sinclair acting by permission where possible but in action we're not it's a on your last slide do you layer in an unwilling or unable analysis here or is it pure unilateralism well I thank you for that great question and thanks again to the organizers this this has been a fantastic two days I hope that that I don't ruin it here at the end I hesitate to discuss unable and unwilling in the presence of Ashley Deakes who is like the world renowned guru on this issue so Ashley feel free to jump in and correct me at any moment but but I view the the unable and unwilling really to be used in the self-defense idea and it's mostly used as a self-defense notion certainly the the framework agreement produced by the Obama administration in 2016 supports this idea so the one of the interesting things about this is that in this case I don't think the US might be using unable and unwilling by analogy but it's not using it in a self-defense mode it's using it in a much more proactive mode so even though you could argue that the principles as laid out in current US practice seem to embrace this unable or unwilling procedure or view it's not doing it in a self-defense mode instead it's doing it in a proactive way to kind of deter as a deterrence issue and that that seems to me to be a little bit unique than the way we have normally used unable or unwilling in the past I immediately pass it to Ashley for her comments go Ashley thanks Eric I'll make a pitch for international law studies here I wrote a 2013 piece through them on the geography of cyber conflict that asked this question but Eric's exactly right I asked it in the context of self-defense thinking about unwilling or unable as a as a sub-inquiry on the necessity question after you suffer an armed attack but I tend to agree with Eric that it may be that the US government is using the concept as a matter of policy and attaching it to its defend forward concept it has long said that it's sensitive to the sovereignty of other states whether sovereignty is is a rule or a principle and I think that's a way to to express concern for other states sovereignty trying to get their consent maybe even thinking about things like pre-consent agreements that say look we met we know operations might happen within your territory if you're willing we can ride to the rescue that of course implicates the the question about collective countermeasures if we're talking about an activity below the use of force great thank you so I'm going to try to give each of you a turn in the hot seat so next we'll go to Professor Roguski this is a question from Jeff Biller given the reports on malicious cyber operations related to development of the COVID vaccine might this be an excellent opportunity to consider third-party responses against ergo ominous interests yes thank you very much for this excellent question and of course this is indeed you know the the avenue that I was trying to hint at the problem of course that we see here is well which ergo ominous obligation has been violated so if we take a look at at stateside obligations we would ask well has this been an intervention into the internal affairs of a state well even if it has been does the norm against intervention constitute an ergo ominous obligation I would say probably not and the same would be with with sovereignty taking aside the the discussions about whether sovereignty applies in cyberspace or not so the only candidate that I can think of and I have been giving this some thought would be if we say that we employ collective countermeasures in order to protect a collective interest under human rights namely the right to health because then we could say that the ICESCR which contains the the right to health it is an ergo or creates ergo ominous parties obligations and in order to enforce those obligations then states that are not affected would be entitled to collect to take collective countermeasures however one one note to finish on of course we only need collective countermeasures only need to talk about collective countermeasures if we as the acting state are not ourselves injured so if a cyber attack has also affected our ability to to do COVID-19 research and so forth then we would be entitled to act as a directly injured state and there then we would not need those collective countermeasures construction so on that point Mike Sikler has another question and it's I'll just give it to you Professor Grisky because we're still on you does international law allow for collective countermeasures when the attack state requests the assistance of a third party in doing those well there is nothing in in the article some state responsibility that would would speak to to such an analogy to to collective self-defense so basically the the third state instituting collective countermeasures would need to have to act in furtherance of a collective interest and not you know just acting on on to help the the injured state here again we can think of many scenarios for instance well what does it mean to to to help so all actions that themselves do not violate a norm by which the acting state the third state would be bound are permitted on the international law so for instance a couple of days ago US cyber command has issued a statement where it said that it has conducted hand forward operations together with Estonia within Estonian networks and so this presumably was requested by the Estonians and this is not a countermeasure situation because this is limited to to Estonian networks so the only question is if cyber command together with the Estonians were to go to Russian networks because Russian the Russian actors or any other state actor has intervened in that state requesting help then we would need to to to find a construct to justify this action on the half of a third state but simply a request by the third state would not be sufficient can I just add to that I mean I thought that that example of Russia and Estonia was really great because how a country thinks about sovereignty is a huge piece of that right because if if a country doesn't recognize a violation of sovereignty as an unlawful act under international law then that also would not be a countermeasure or if the method by which they were engaging on another state's infrastructure wasn't unlawful then they would not consider themselves as being involved in a countermeasure it would be retortion or some other thing right so so that again we come back to that piece that Roy Shrondorf talked about this morning so important and and states I mean I think we're finding a real varied reflection from states on that topic great thank you so much um professor Deeks I was going to ask this question this is a sort of a hybrid of a question I had so I'm glad I get to ask it through another person uh Pazanansky Michael Pazanansky adds this question what do you see as the trade-offs associated with President Trump's 2018 decision to give more latitude to certain entities to conduct offensive cyber operations especially President-elect Biden continues his policy how should we weigh the core benefits for example acting more nimbly and responsibly against the potential drawbacks for example less oversight risks of escalation in my particular question was similar especially if we're trying to gain the benefits of autonomy the speed at which these these machines can make the decision will this potential oversight or even potential intervention by the legislature cause delay and essentially lose those potential benefits yeah great so um so that's a fantastic question and part of the answer I think is uh there's an empirical aspect to the answer that I don't know and that is uh what exactly has happened since 2018 uh in reliance on this new latitude and uh what do we think objectively about whether it has been good or bad and it may well be that the defense department is very happy about it and could be that the state department's happy about it but it might also be that the state department feels as though that was a mistake so um so I need a little bit more empirical information to to know how to think that through but I think it's exactly the right question so I'm not advocating that we want to bog down policies just for the sake of having sort of slow process um but I do think you know the state department for example has long been a really important player within the United States in interpreting international law uh and I would hate to see uh them get cut out of that loop entirely on issues that are almost certainly going to implicate international law um and if you just have a single agency uh thinking about these issues then we might think about um David Pozen wrote a piece about um deep secrecy and he thinks about deep secrets as being ones that few people know and only few types of people know uh and by introducing the state department and the justice department and so on you are making it a little bit less of a deep secret even though it remains a classified operation and so I think it's healthy to keep that not entirely within a single agency um but to answer um the colonels question too I think a lot of this gets done at the front end right that it's not that you want to hold up each operation by bringing it back to the group but you need to have hard and I think intense conversations up front that play out how different things could could work and maybe you know collectively agree on the rules of the road uh for many of the situations you're going to encounter but do it at the front end so you don't slow down and lose the advantage of the autonomy at the at the tail end. Fair enough thank you so much Professor Diggs uh Professor Jensen uh one question I have for you that I wanted you to expand on mainly because I really liked it and so I wanted to hear your full explanation is you mentioned um to not uh not it's we should operate not with gloves off but with the use of gloves I was hoping you could expand on that. Yeah well so I mean this this is probably not a great uh way to pose this in an international audience but uh we have this saying in the United States that that you know you were going gloves off which means the rules kind of don't apply anymore right we're just fighting um and I don't I certainly don't think that this US practice has gotten us there we still are bound by rules and the United States government is heavily legally committed they they want you know when the government takes actions they they rely heavily on what's lawful but I do think what these instances of US practice say is um you're not just going to stand back and take it right you're going to actually put the gloves on and engage in the fight and you know the the 2019 NDAA particularly sets up some pretty specific authorities and permissions and not just permissions but in some senses um you know Congress is expressing the will of Congress and telling DoD to take actions and to do certain things and to me that is a much more aggressive approach as as referred to in the last question that's a much more aggressive approach and and I for one will be interested to see if President-elect Biden continues that uh that you know that method and I think that will give us some insight into Ashley's question about the empirics you know he's he and his new administration are going to look at that they're going to look at the empirics and I think that that will be an indication to us if they continue this approach that those empirics have in fact worked to the United States national security benefit. Thank you so much and so it looks like we have time for one final question um and so I think Professor Deeks you mentioned this I I think you answered it but I want to make sure that we we give it give it it's due uh Peter Margulis uh says is the view of autonomy as a black box and a biting concern or can we address it through explainable AI? Um great hi Peter um thanks for the question so um of course one of the reasons this matters including for legislatures is whether you can audit after the fact uh why a system made the choices it did and um and Congress could help the executive take remedial steps if we end up in a place that we don't want to be an unintended escalation for example um so again here I mean I think this is also an empirical question there's been a lot of attention paid to the problem of uh the black box nature of machine learning and deep neural nets uh and a lot of different uh uh forms that explainable AI can take. Some people worry about uh making it explainable because you lose uh you degrade the quality of the system the very thing you're trying to use the system for um but I do I am relatively optimistic that there are um going to be some helpful solutions to this and from what I understand in conversations with the military they too are really interested in making sure that they understand why the system is making certain recommendations and taking certain steps and not just saying you know go off and and uh we trust it entirely so I think that incentive will also enhance uh the work of computer scientists to to drive towards a more explainable AI. Great thank you and so I will ask I I I realize I'm going over time but I want to ask one final question to any of the panelists uh this is from my colleague Jeff Biller who asks have we seen suggestions that defending forward could be applied on behalf of allies? I guess I can take that on first and just say um you know this goes back to some extent to the collective countermeasures discussion that we had um as long as you don't depending on your view of sovereignty and as long as you either do or don't view this as unlawful therefore it can be a countermeasure certainly there uh as as I noted on my slide there are lots of opportunities now where the United States is acting in conjunction with allies so to the extent that that is the answer to Jeff's question uh I mean that's that's right we're doing that all the time we're doing it more often and and and especially with people who have like-minded views on this application international law. All right well great uh I want to thank each and every one of you uh each of the panelists uh very interesting very fascinating topic thank you for your remarks for your time and from the questions I'll turn it back over to the Stockton Center for I believe closing our remarks. Great well thank you for all the panelists there I think it's fitting that having just discussed um the evolving nature of state practice and cyber operations uh we finished there having started the day with the remarks um from Israel in terms of uh state practice there so thanks again to all the speakers from today for an excellent day uh focus on cyber operations tomorrow we will reconvene 1100 hours east in standard time and for everyone who has joined today's is interested in cyber operations um the opening keynote by Doug Burnett is on suffering cable security in international law and given the extent to which such cables underpin cyber operations and capabilities um hopefully you'll be able to join us there so I'll leave it there and we'll see you tomorrow


Hey guys welcome back to Come Again TV the only place on YouTube we're all geek culture collides. Today we're going to be taking a look at a massive haul that I got just this past week. The first thing I wanted to show you in this haul were these 1986 PVC duct tails figures. These were all the rage back in the 80s and early 90s. Different companies made different PVC's. They were cheap. They were cheap to make, cheap to purchase. You had California raisins, you had the Noid from Domino's, you had Smurfs, but we found these at Primary Colors Retro Relics in Lincoln, Illinois yesterday. Here's their business card. Very cool guy, the owner. He helped us out a lot. I originally went in there to purchase something I had him hold back for me which I will get into later in this video, but he had these in a dollar bin full of assorted toys. My wife found them. She started grabbing them. This is, aside from this webby, this is an almost complete base set. I say almost complete because the only one it's missing from the base set is Uncle Scrooge. You've got Launchpad McQuack, you've got Webby, you've got Huey, Dewey, and Louie, and you've got one of the Beagle Boys. And then this was from another PVC line. I don't know how well you can see that. Made by Killog. Not bad. Another Webby, but I really enjoy these. In the future, hopefully once I'm able to obtain an Uncle Scrooge from this base set, I'll do a complete review on them. Up next, continuing with the DuckTales theme. We have this Huey Duck which is a 1986 plush made by Hasbro and Playmate. The owner at Primary Colors Retro Relics in Lincoln, I told him I was a big fan of DuckTales, and he had this sitting back in one of the totes. He hadn't put it out on display or anything, he was just sitting there. So because we spent so much money in his shop, he gave it to me. Which just shows how cool of a guy he is for one, and how great the store is for another. Although this Huey, he looks a little evil. He looks a little sinister. The eyebrows and the way his eyes are, it kind of gives him that sinister tone, but he's still cool nonetheless. And during this line of plushes, each one of the ducks did have their names on their shirts. Huey, Dewey, Louie, and Webby. I don't think Uncle Scrooge had his name on his shirt or anything, but you can see it's pretty old. And then here on the tag, upside down, DuckTales, 1986, the Walt Disney Company, by PlaySchool, and Hasbro. Surface washable only. 100% polyester stuffing. Very cool addition to my DuckTales collection. Up next, we have this Star Trek, the next generation, StarShip Enterprise, Electronic. Collector's edition number 083750 by PlayMatesToys. This is something I've been trying to get my hands on for quite a while. On eBay, they're usually priced at well over a hundred bucks. The owner at Primary Colors had it stocked for 35 bucks. 35. Great buy. I saw it on his Facebook page. I asked him if he could hold it for me. He did. He set it in the back for me. This was the reason we went in there yesterday, strictly for this, this enterprise. And we ended up spending almost 100 bucks in the store. Another figure I got from Retro Relics, we have Pandacon. And he did come complete.  Pandacon was always one of my favorite figures growing up. Him along with the Samurai Leonardo and Usagi Ujimbo were my favorites. And this guy is in pristine condition. I'm not sure about the nose though. I'm not sure if that's paint coming off the nose or if that's how he was designed to make it look like he had a shiny nose. But everything else on this figure is pretty pristine except for the bottom of the shoes. It's pretty rare to find a Pandacon not only with all his weapons but also with his pads. These pads on his arms and legs because a lot of times that was the first thing that kids would lose. Another part would be the ends of his bandana. That's something that would often get broken off as well. Very cool find. Another find at Retro Relics was from the X-Men Animated Series Toyline Gambit. He was in the dollar bin. He did not have his staff or his trench coat with him missing quite a bit of paint. But still a very cool find. His kick action still works. Very nice. He was always one of my favorite X-Men figures growing up. Very cool. Up next something my son found and he offered to give it to me since he knows I collect these. But I told him no he can have it that I asked the owner at Retro Relics to keep an eye out for another one for me. And that is the original Hot Wheels 1989 Batmobile. And you know it's the original because it has the Batman symbol on top. The majority of the 1989 Batmobiles that were released during the movie came with the Bat symbol on top. It was the branding deal. Very cool. I would love to add this to my collection. I used to have one grown up. Lost it in several moves. What are you going to do? We're going to get away from the Retro Relics toys for right now and go into a toy I managed to find on eBay that I've been looking for for quite some time. I've been looking for this to complete my collection for quite a while. However many scalpers on eBay have this listed at well over 50 bucks to buy. I was laying in bed one night. Couldn't get to sleep. I was tossing and turning. It wasn't for this reason or anything. But I decided to take a look at eBay and just browse. See what I could find. I typed in Jillian Holtzman action figure and found it for a price of $21 plus shipping. It ended up being about 30 bucks after shipping and taxes and everything. Great price. Great find. I couldn't believe it. I was amazed. My collection is finally complete. I have all four original Ghostbusters. All four answer the call Ghostbusters now. I will be doing a review on her as well as Rowan. It will be out in October along with the other answer the call Ghostbusters figures. So make sure you tune in for that. I was very excited to find this figure. I got two pops from Amber who used to be on a few episodes. I've come again here. First one. Pop movies Ghostbusters. The gatekeeper, Zool and the key master. We had been going back and forth for about a year trying to pick a time and everything for me to get by this from her. It's shot up like three or four times since initially telling her that I was going to buy it. Very very cool. I definitely want to find a place for this on my shelf. I'm going to have to make room. Very cool. I'm a huge Ghostbusters fan and I will be doing a review on this and that review will be in October as well. I'm trying to save Ghostbusters stuff and horror stuff for the month of October. Make sure you tune in then guys. Up next another pop I purchased from Amber that I will be doing a review on soon. Pop animation Dragon Ball Z 265 Galactic Toys Exclusive Shinron Vinyl Figure. I know Billy did a review on one. I believe he did a review on the Gold Shinron. However, this is the fully colored one. Very nice. Saw it. Amber had it up for sale. Told her I'd go in and get it. We have a box but not just any box. This is a box of trading cards. These trading cards are ones that I had growing up. I really enjoyed them. I ended up leaving them behind in one of my many moves which I regret along with all my other trading cards. I had complete sets of many different. I had the Jim Lee X-Men sets, the Spider-Man trading cards, tons of Marvel trading cards, but this one I really really liked. I got it off of eBay. I can't remember how much I paid for it, but here's a company that sold it to me. M hop on hop. There's his card. Got a glare there. There we go. All right. These were in really good condition. When I got them they were wrapped for me. He put them in this box with Styrofoam around them and they are the long card bond complete set which I always really liked. However, they take special plastic pages to be able to fit in a binder. I'm going to have to find and order those special card pages. Very nice. I really liked these. I liked them as a kid just as much. Very cool designs. They took different panels from the early days of spawn comics and turned them into trading cards.  Go through and look at all your cards and you can go back through volumes 1 and 2 and see exactly which page they took each card from. Very nice. I will be doing a review on these in the near future. Probably come October. So make sure you tune in for that. Up next we have a movie hall. I told you I was going to get it guys and and so I did season one book one thunder cats. I had found season one book two. All right. That'll have to do. All right. I had found season one book two at Duller General and so of course I went on Amazon and found season one book one for a relatively good price so I bought it up. I have not yet watched it. We watched one episode of book two already but I figured I'd wait and start at the beginning. Very cool. Then I managed to find at Walmart in the five dollar bin. Now you see me two Blu-ray DVD and digital copy. Very cool. I love these now you see me movies. Cannot wait to see. I believe they're supposed to be coming out with a third one. Very nice. Up next a Blu-ray that I found last night while shopping at Walmart. This one I was waiting for. I had Dragon Ball Z Battle of the Gods movie. I had the Resurrection F movie. I had Dragon Ball Super part three and now Dragon Ball Super part four. Cannot wait to watch this.  They do this pickup with the last episode of the previous season and go until one episode before the end of the season and they put that last episode on the next feature which I don't like at all but that's their marketing thing and it works so what are you going to do. Coming to the end of the haul we have a few comic books or graphic novels trade paperbacks whatever you want to call them they're comics. The first one is Die Hard year one volume two. I have ordered volume one it should be here in a few days. Very good read it doesn't read like a Die Hard movie though. It reads more like a 70s cop drama. It's cool they got the art the look of a 70s movie done perfectly but it doesn't really feel like a Die Hard story. Then and I got this off of Amazon. I also picked up yesterday. I bought a couple comics off a local radio DJ in Springfield. One that used to be a very popular DJ. He re-in the morning show for several years called The Morning Disaster. He had a bunch of graphic novels for sale 10 bucks a piece couldn't really beat that so I bought four of them and the ones I purchased were Invincible volume one family matters which are the first few stories from Invincible. You have Invincible volume two eight is enough. You have the new 52 Shazam and Green Lantern volume three the end. Those were the trades that I purchased off of him. If you're in the St. Louis area him and Mike Lam used to have a radio show together as well as Ray Lytle is Lytle and Lam show or in Springfield it was Ray Lytle's Morning Disaster. That's who I bought these off of. Very cool and then these last two comics I got at Primary Colors Retro Relics. Yes they do have more than just toys there they have tons of comics they have video games old school video games they have DVDs just tons of stuff. We have Green Lantern number 78 and Green Lantern number 93. I have to say guys I think I made out like a bandit with this haul. We have plans to go back again next month we're going to save back probably uh we're going to save back a little bit of money each week so that when we go one some month uh we can have a really nice haul and get our get our money's worth for the time we spent driving back and forth to Lincoln which is about 45 minutes from here half hour maybe if you drive faster but with that being said I'm gonna go ahead and bring this haul to a close we're going on about 20 minutes here so I hope you guys enjoyed this video if you did make sure you hit that subscribe button so you don't miss out on future videos I'm Shannon for Come Again TV the only place on YouTube where all geek culture collides take care my friends


Sutton have struggled this term after the highs of last season and one win in eight league games hints at worrying times. They've also knocked out of the effort cut by Fandra on this ground last weekend so they need a result today against High Fly Bradford. The Bantams head to South London, fifth in the table on the back of some impressive away form. Only late in Orient have won more points on the road with Tuesday's win at Mattsville, their fifth away this term. It's time for football league clubs to pay their respects for those who sacrificed so much. That will be a moment of reflection for the members tonight. She's then for Sutton from the Farmer Defeats, where is Snowfell and Lovett back in. Two alterations for Bradford from Tuesday, Issa and Songo drafted into the 11th. And the chance for Sutton United, desperate for three points today. And it comes and the header is over the bar. Issa appears for a shove in the penalty area. Isn't quite congested in that, going to get a spot kick for that. Bradford unbeaten in both league meetings, they won 4-1 here in April. That's what cut out and then fired back towards goal. Haven't seen much of Bradford so far. It was Richard Smallwoods who came onto this, struck it well enough. The yard also over the bar, have later been draws. They're not beaten in five, but they've drawn three of those matches. Sutton have lost seven of the last 11 in all competitions, including their last two. Issa Randall has done really well, still going. Randall's dictated across. Then at the title match so far, Bradford hasn't created much going forward. Sutton have been very bright and industrious. Randall again, and it's calmed away by Harry Lewis. It was well hit by Randall. He's got three league goals this season. Good goalkeeping though. They really look like being beaten. They've been a tough nut to crack this season. They've conceded 14 goals. Only Leighton-Orient and Tramlia have conceded fewer. They must have something at the other end. Bradford on the attack, oh, it's spin deflected in. Goes the way of the visitors. And guess who? Andy Cook. He scored at Mansfield on Tuesday, and he scored again today in South London. A 12th league goal of the season. And it was a predators finish. An untidy goal from a Sutton perspective. But Bradford nipped in front. Sutton no. Bradford one. The first two matches on the road. Barrow and Colchester. Five of six since. They have been terrific away from home. It's the home form that's been the issue. They're not further up the table. And for Leighton-Orient. Left-hand side, all Cook has laid it off. Oh, and it's just turned away.  Lovely link-up play involving Andy Cook. Dish back into the area. And this is going to be hits. Bit well wide from Halliday. But the link-up play was absolutely wonderful here between Chapman and Cook. Bradford unlucky. In South London for this second goal. Link-up play down the left again. 700 odds. Bradford City supporters behind the goal. And willing them up. In it comes. It's kind of gone over everybody. Oh, that's absolutely wonderful. Still going. There's Cook and he's forced another corner. Good hold-up play from Andy Cook. Who has his goal. And Scott Banks is trotted over to take it. And Scott Banks, he's gone for goal. And he's found the top corner. Incredible goal from Scott Banks. And it's a second for Bradford. That was magical. A third of the season in the league for Banks. And that is surely his best. It's a goal of the season contender. In league two. What a strike on his left. Sutton nil. Bradford two. He's absolutely wonderful from Scott Banks. And Bradford's season control of this game. Three points heading back to West Yorkshire. Sutton. It's looking good perilous for that at the moment. Only five wins this season. Four of them have come at home. But haven't won in three on this ground. Coming into today's game in the league. And they look a bit shell-shocked in the second half. And it's all Bradford City. Dangerous area. And getting worse for Sutton. It's well hit. It was dipping but didn't quite dip enough. Bradford supporters behind the goal. Thoroughly enjoying themselves. And it's a soak-up. A lot of pressure in that first half for Bradford. But they've really stepped things up in the second period. Here's one of the league two's top marksmen, Andy Cook. Bradford can regain possession here. Controlled midfields. Bradford today. And so Giliado pokes it forward. And Angle was waiting for it. It didn't arrive for his feet. And a chance for a third. He's still going. And it needed the save. And Jack Rose keeps Sutton heads above water. For now at least. So Bradfords have been a class apart in the second period. Scott Bax was sniffing more goals. Going out for Sutton. There was nothing in that. But the referee does decide to give a free kick. And it surely just be a consolation for Sutton United. Clipped into the area. The goalkeeper comes for it. Oh, he didn't claim it initially. But there is the final whistle. Another defeat for Sutton. One win in nine games. And their worrying slump continues. But Bradford City. Another away day masterclass from them. A sixth away victory of the season. And they are up to fourth in the lead two table. A stunning goal by Scott Bax. Cat things off in the second period. It was a deserved three points for the West Yorkshire side. Full time. Sutton nil. Bradford two.


Right now, she left because I lived in Cabite. I met my one husband. I worked in Cabite. Now, when I met my second husband, we were not able to live. My aunt left the house. That's why we moved here. Right now, we have almost half of the world population that live in urban areas. Actually, half of that increase in urbanization is to be directly connected with migration. But it is important to mention that it is not international migration. A lot of that actually is internal. Internal migration in the Philippines is very rapid. Most of the residents of Pateros are the inhabitants itself. But most of the time, it tends to admit more from residents from outside of our municipality. Cities are providers of services. So the way they're going to provide services to the population will have a major bearing on how migrants are going to fare or not in host societies where they find themselves. Here in our barangay, if we have a new place to live, we are sure that they will move to the barangay so that they can be part of our RBI, which is called Registry of Barangay Inhabitants. They can be part of the population here in the barangay. And we also know who the people of the house are. The people of the house are going to the barangay and the captains. They are going to tell us that this is what they are going to do. In densely populated urban areas, concerted efforts need to be taken to ensure the safety and well-being of those living there. This is especially important when working in areas that are vulnerable to natural hazards. Urban planning must therefore consider the risks of disaster and put in place strategies to reduce the chances of displacement. Urban development must come always with disaster and climate risk adjustments. So our local government unit is continuously moving on with the community risk assessment programs on disaster risk and climate change variabilities. The men project, or the Mass Evacuations in Natural Disasters project, is a resilience-building project for three vulnerable communities. We expect a 7.2 magnitude earthquake to hit the region sometime in this generation. The idea of the project is to support local government units and the communities themselves to prepare for this disaster. So we provided them with technical support and training. These beneficiaries that we identified will be the ones who are most likely to lose their homes. Should this earthquake of large movement happen in Metro Manila, we know now what to do. And especially on the local government unit level and the barangay officials, we know now how to manage evacuation camps. We simulated an actual earthquake with an identified family. We asked them to do the simulation of the duck covering hold for us. When cities have a better understanding of displacement risks, they can improve urban development outcomes for the benefit of all.