Introduce yourselves, starting with you, John. Yeah, so my name is John Moore. I am with the Kamarazzi Corporation. I'm from Canada, actually Ottawa, Canada, where I think last year's event was held. And I've been in IT. Somebody said it yesterday. They wouldn't admit to doing over 20 years, but I'm over 20 years. And been in the business a long time. So bringing in Canada anyway to hold the whole transformation movement, Stephanie's movement, the whole transformation movement is taking off. And I think there's no real IC vision or process like IT for IT. So that's what Kamarazzi is bringing to the table is focusing on IT for IT, focusing on mapping to business value, mapping back to the services. And I love hearing Stephanie talk about services, because IT never talks enough about services. So yeah, so that's what we're doing. And pleased to be here. Thank you. Hi, I'm Mike Fulton, 25 years in IT, last 10 plus in strategy and architecture roles. I am currently working for Nationwide. We are on your side. And for all of the international folks, you may not know that as our jingle. But I am currently heading up their technology innovation department. Before Nationwide, I spent 20 years at Procter & Gamble. And then a couple of years as an IT strategy and architecture consultant and chief digital officer. Oh, and I co-chair the forum. I was going to say, there's something about the chair of the forum in there, too. Something about that. OK, so Lars Rosen, I know a lot of you guys here in the room. I've been in IT for more than 25 years. Just this seems to be the standard thing to say when you're in this forum. I work in micro-focus. I didn't get a job there. I was acquired in. And I've been through the acquisition route in four or five times or something like that. And it's always fun. But it also implies a lot of transformation. So I'm kind of indirectly becoming expert in that. But my day job is cross portfolio strategy for our organization. And I had the core group that steward the normative part of the IT for IT standard. Yes. So yeah, Lars and Carl here are kind of the key sort of founders and kind of instigators, I guess, for getting the standard off the shelf and into the real world here. So we can have them to thank for that. Somebody to blame. Yeah, for all this work and all this great knowledge. The most emotional posters there. Yeah, and some, I'm sure, resonated more than others. OK, so with that, I'm going to get started with the panel. And so the one thing that kind of struck me is digital enterprise. So I know we're working through some opportunities to define that as a forum. Some of the forums are working on that. But in your words, please define digital enterprise. So Mike, I'm going to pick on you first. OK, so for me, a digital enterprise is all about an enterprise that is using technology to transform its business model and its engagement with customers. OK, Lars, anything to add? Sure, you could say that in many ways, an awful lot of companies today are becoming digital enterprises.  It's something around using more technology in the delivery of the service. But another way of saying it is, if what's in your service catalog on your web page is something you sell to the customer, not something you sell to your internal organization, then you're probably digital enterprise. But it's not a precise definition, nevertheless. And how about you, John? I think it's about, like Mike said, driving business acceleration, innovation, and using technology. I mean, if you think about the digital-only or native digital organizations that thrive on, that's all they make money on is using digital, so. Yeah, and I've seen that. Companies are predicated on the technology that they have. They don't exist unless the technology's there assisting to deliver their products or services. Yeah, I think there's an important point around what's different about digital enterprise today versus what we've been as organizations for a long time. And for me, we have applied technology to improve our businesses for as long as IT's been around. It's been the job of enterprise architects to transform businesses. For me, though, I think that the shift from digital that is really key is that rather than looking primarily inside the company within our control, which is where we historically have operated as IT, we're turning outside. We're starting to look at things beyond the walls of our company. And that's, to me, the biggest shift that's happening in this digital evolution. Ideas come from anywhere, anywhere and everywhere. But it's always important when a new trend comes around and the digital enterprise is a buzzword these days, honestly. To think about, well, what's the first digital enterprise we had? And I guess it's probably AT&T started about 120 years ago because fundamentally it was technology service that was delivered as a service. And nothing really changed since. Well, that's not completely true. But if we look at the telco business and what they did, especially when they digitized the telco transmission net, it was very much a digital enterprise. But it's also interesting to see all the pitfalls they had and all the wrong things they did in that process. And let's make sure we don't repeat that when we do it for the rest of the industries. No, great definitions. I love all those. Next thing I want to really expand on here is what are your concerns with the increased challenges facing the businesses today given that shift to digital enterprise? So I'll pick on you, Mike. You're the quietest. How often does that happen? I'm the quietest, right? Give me a few minutes to get warmed up, apparently. So I think, for me, when I look at the biggest challenges, the pace of change, first and foremost, is the number one challenge that I see facing enterprises all around the world. I think as we look at how rapidly technology is evolving, it's just becoming very difficult for organizations to keep up with that. And so I think we have to think about new ways of working to be able to keep up with that pace of change. Yeah, it's, again, I'll go back to my telco example. Learning from the past, one of the things they didn't manage to transform when they transformed into digital was to be agile. It took 20 years to introduce ISDN and 12 years to introduce ADSL because there wasn't this competitive environment. And also at the same time, it was very clear that they absolutely hated IT and didn't use the knowledge in IT in being smarter about what to do compared to doing it the way they've always been doing it. So I think that Charlie, if he's in the room, maybe he's not, said it correctly the other day around the other session earlier today, that finance is an example of a line of corporate function that people sort of respect. You need to understand finance, but you also respect that finance are the ones that really understand the bigger scheme of how it all works across the countries and what have I. But there doesn't seem to be the same respect of saying, well, there are some professional IT people that can help the line of business and vice versa that doesn't exist. And if you don't establish that, you're going to fail. So I mean, really the incorporation of IT into the business mix, basically, is involving IT versus being smarter, yeah. Good point, good point. How about you, John? I find it, and I don't necessarily think it's geographic. But I find, I like the fact that Stephanie came before us because she talked about the silos. I found that over the many years, the struggle that organizations have in just changing the way they do things. And what Mike said, the pace of change that's happening, they have no choice but to now start to change the way they deliver services, not from a silo perspective, et cetera. But the disciplines in changing that and the force, I guess, the mandate to be able to do it, it's a big cultural shift that has to go on. I find that one of the challenges as well. Yeah, some say it's changing cultures harder than anything else, right? Yeah. Yeah, there's another thing that we talked about earlier that you were highlighting as we were prepping for the session, John. One of the things that's going on that's an increasing challenge for organizations all over the world is data privacy and legislation associated with that. The introduction of GDPR and all of the various implications of that, it's a challenge for businesses to understand how to handle that, how to keep up with that, how to anticipate what's coming next. So I think that's another challenge we mentioned. I would also kind of build on that to say just the importance of data and what's possible with data. I'll give a shout out to my colleague Don Brancato over there from the Open Platform 3 form and all of the work that they're doing in there to identify standards around data interchange and standards around data lakes and big data platforms. I think the volume of data that is available to businesses and the ability to make decisions in different ways using advanced technologies like artificial intelligence. It's increasingly becoming a difficult to understand what are the right things to do and what are the things not to do. I could talk for a long time, maybe we'll get into some of this about how that's impacting us in the insurance industry. You're getting warmed up? I am starting to get warmed up a little. All right, all right, that's good, that's good. Well, and this next question is for you, Lars, because you touched on it in your last answer, which is what's the role of IT and how is it becoming more important to these digital businesses as they try to transform? What can we do in IT to make that better? I don't think there is a single answer at the moment. Everybody's struggling with it and unfortunately many organizations also struggling with the fact that culturally everybody hates IT because they are the ones that are hindering stuff to happen, et cetera. Everybody also hates finance, but they accept it exists, right? I guess. They sign the paycheck. They sign the paycheck, it's not the same with IT. I think there's a couple of places. One is the sort of on the corporate level, you can simply say, well, give governance, risk and compliance, the GDP, PR, things, and also security in general. Lines of business can't figure out how to do that, period, right? It needs to be something that is handled by a professional unit that concentrate on that corporate-wise, but do it with all of these digital service that is being introduced. The other thing is that IT itself needs to think much more about being a platform provider. So creating that catalog, operational catalog where you have service available that the lines of business IT really needs. And that's the shift of thinking for IT from being a cost center, where if you want something to do, you come with a bag of money and then wait nine months and you get it to a business center that predicts what the lines of business need and provide those platforms and services that the lines of business needs. That's a cultural shift and that's the biggest hindrance we have at the moment. See you at the table. How about you, John? What do you think? Well, just to go from cost center to no pun intended for gas and oil, but service center, right? The idea of that, exactly. I think IT's role just because of what's coming down from a technology perspective, I think is much more important. What I've also seen is that over time, as to what Lars said, where IT seemed to be the wall to get beyond and I work a lot with the federal government in Canada that went from 78 different departments into one shared services and could not deliver services for years to those departments. Took all their money, but didn't deliver any services to the point where the departments went out and started getting cloud services, bypassing shared services and IT altogether. So it's like there's an important delivery role there and the other point I look at is the fact that if you think about traditional organizations with IT, a lot of compliance, regulatory, all of those things and then let's think about the digital native organization where they kind of have forgotten about compliance altogether. That's why the IT role for traditional organizations, I think, is very important. One of the struggles, I think, the digitally native organizations are gonna have is within the compliance side of it. They're gonna have to engineer it backwards. Come back in. Exactly, where I think that's why the role, as we start seeing more data coming in, artificial intelligence, a lot of the standards and compliance pieces of the puzzle that need to be addressed by IT. Agreed. I kind of just making one more comment to what you're making of statements here is that again, comparing to the financial department, CFO, I don't think any company in their right mind would believe that they outsource the CFO role. They might use a lot of service providers, Deloitte, Pricewaterhouse, whatever to help them doing the finance, but they know that they are responsible. And so there is this trend, or was this trend, that okay, the IT is something we outsource because we can't figure out how to do it, we get somebody else to do it, right? And it's okay to outsource some functions, but you are still responsible for IT, right? And that's what the organization needs to learn, unfortunately for some, it's gonna be the hard way. Yeah, as we've seen in Mike, I know you've got some, you're sort of right in the path of that, how can IT help innovate in the business, right? Yeah, absolutely. So it's interesting. I think it's an interesting time that we're in right now, and to use Lars's example of the finance organization, you would never hear nationwide turn around and say we're an accounting company. But our CEO recently was heard saying that nationwide is no longer an insurance company, nationwide is now a technology company that happens to sell insurance. And I think that speaks to the transformation that's going on in industries all across the world. It speaks to the importance of information technology, it speaks to the transformation and the role that IT is playing in the business, and it's really important for us to step up to the plate as IT professionals to that challenge. So I think we all have to be doing more, I think we all have to be looking out ahead, trying to set the path for the organization and figure out how we're going to take these emerging technologies, I think we'll talk about in our next question, and identify the new what's possible, and help utilize those what's possible to solve real customer problems. Yeah, well, and so keep the mic there, because I mean, what I would like to understand is how you're doing that. I know it's part of your role is to go out there and look externally and bring some of this interesting technology back to the business.  So for my team specifically, we have a couple that we're looking at. We're looking at blockchain. We think that's gonna be fairly impactful to the financial services and insurance industry. We're looking at artificial intelligence. Again, with all of the data we have as we try to do underwriting on our customers, the artificial intelligence that we'll be able to use to do better underwriting is really important to us. We're still continuing to look at ways that we as an organization can leverage kind of a platform model. We utilize APIs and microservices in a platform mentality. So that's another key area. And we're starting to take a look at artificial or not artificial intelligence, virtual reality and augmented reality, and trying to figure out how that's going to change how we interact with and embrace our customers going forward. But probably the most interesting thing I would say that we've come up with as a team over the last year has been that we don't believe that the new technologies are the important piece. What we think is actually the really critical thing is identifying not the one technology that's gonna be most impactful, but what are the technology convergences? How are multiple technologies going to come together and combine in new and interesting ways and allow us to do things that we were never able to do before? And so to me, that's the kind of thing that we're trying to focus on. How are we gonna use IoT and blockchain and artificial intelligence together and converge those into an interesting solution? As we look a little further out, how are we going to leverage quantum computing and AI and 5G? When we think of, as was mentioned in one of the keynotes this morning, living in a world of abundance, quantum computing and 5G really dramatically change what's possible when it comes to compute capacity. And so we're trying to think about how those convergences are really gonna change, fundamentally change the game. I would agree. Quite a number of things. I'd like to put it under the hat of Frickler. I can't say that word, actually. Frickler is a compute that is easy to do. I know I did not drink beer today, but anyway, getting to it eventually. The concept of actually making stuff easy to use. It's not just it's commoditized, but actually make complex stuff easy. Because that goes back to the agility. So you can say that's part of making platforms work seamlessly. It's also something like the old technology to make sure that you can use old technology in the new settings. We got, I don't know how many billion lines of Cobalt code running on mainframes. It happens to be my business, so it's shameless plot here. But nevertheless, it's actually a gross business for us. Double digit gross in Cobalt, right? And that's because all of these back end systems written in Cobalt, they will support the digital enterprise. And you're not gonna rip out in your insurance business necessarily all your Cobalt mainframes, but how can we make it frictionless? It was almost correct. Frickler nest. Frickler nest. Got it. Got it, right? I didn't have to think about the word, then it was easier. And to make sure that you can actually make those updates in an agile manner so that you can get your stuff out the door. And that's again, not thinking about the next new technology, but thinking about this thing. The other one is obviously big data and what comes with that. It's gonna change the world. Yeah, so how to consume, how to leverage the technologies that are complicated much more easily every day. Yeah, any thoughts, John? I would even say that aside from, and Mike, you're in that role of looking at newer technologies coming, even just using technologies that have been around for a while and maybe to the point that Lars saying, it not necessarily being easy to use them, but I think of how many organizations, specifically in IT, are not automated to the max or not using orchestration and tools and solutions that have been around to be able to do that for a long time. So even existing technology, I think that IT is not necessarily using for benefit. And then the other thought that I was thinking about is when you think about what's happening with container technology and not just the technology, but the ability to build applications. Somebody said this a few months ago about everything being designed and built now from an application is meant to fail. Think about that for a sec. It's meant to fail. Whatever happened to when we backed up systems and we did synchronous replication and all of those things, those things are gonna go away when you start having applications that are meant to fail and recover. And that's happening now. So I think the implication, and this is a little off topic, but I think the implications to how IT manages those services as new applications as well, come on, I think is important. Agreed? Yeah, I would build on that. This is something that I was having a conversation with earlier and maybe it's a little provocative for the open group. But I would say the technologies that we're faced with now as well as some of the methods we're using as IT professionals to deal with those are in some ways making architecture obsolete. And I would also profess to say that the pace of change, the speed with it, which were being impacted by technologies is making architecture more important than it's ever been before. And so there's an interesting dichotomy there where I think a lot of organizations are struggling with the mixed message. And they're struggling with what to do with this role of an architect and where it fits in their world. And so particularly in this open group conversation, I think the role of an architect in a digital enterprise will continue to be an interesting conversation as that role morphs going forward. I think some of the DP box stuff is trying to address that in a way, is kind of define the new jobs and the new requirements for those roles. Very good. So we're here in Houston, you know. Gas and energy is sort of the theme. Any thoughts about the impacts of going digital, right? We heard some pretty interesting things earlier today around, okay, was it sub, looking under the ground? Subterranean data, so this whole new, subsurface, that's right, subsurface. Yeah, and of course our shell folks would know. But yeah, I think there's gonna be some interesting evolutions we're seeing. I would never expect to see that new forum pop up, but I can understand why it's there. Any thoughts around the gas and oil industry impacts of all going digital? Anything else? Yeah, maybe I can. Because I got to sit in on a lot of the process automation stuff the last, yesterday. And you know, as I was listening to the open process automation forum and the discussions around it, OT isn't my thing, but IT is. I kinda looked at those worlds converging and we're using digital everywhere in the oil and gas space or we will be. So certainly looking at from that perspective, I have, being from Canada, there's a lot of oil and gas in Canada and some of the challenges I think that we face, at least in Canada, is the cost of the oil and gas, getting it out of the ground. We have tariffs now, trade wars going on, all sorts of things that's driving the cost of pulling that out of the ground. So what I see is that those organizations need to find innovative ways of getting the oil out, selling the products, et cetera. And they really have to think of it from a business perspective, how they can use technology to be able to do that. And I think that we've seen the pricing of oil going up and down continually. One of the other things, and I made the comment before in working with oil and gas in Canada, they are extremely siloed when it comes to their organization and even from the IT perspective. And one of the things that they should be looking at but they're really not driving towards is a lot of the automation. I heard about the concept yesterday about the maintenance of a lot of the assets that are involved in the whole process. A lot of these things that can be automated even to the point where automated failover of devices, et cetera, a lot of these are controlled now through as they add smarts into these devices and assets can be controlled and also can be made more reliable and start to reduce the amount of manpower involved with it. So I think there's a tremendous amount of savings and business drivers of using technology and oil and gas and I can see it, I can see it as the whole open process automation part becomes more. Kind of converges with the IT. Exactly. Yeah. And I know not everybody on the stage has the gas and oil experience and at large you've had some telecom, some deep telecom experience there. What do you say? Well, the telecom experience was also that they were really slow in uptake on automation and in general making the digital business truly efficient until there were disruptors coming in, Skype being the classical example, but there was others coming along, right? And I guess it's the same in oil and gas, it's to really get a fundamental shift in how you think and how you operate. You need to look at what are the disruptors coming in and obviously one of them in that sector is well the other kind of energy sources. So I come from Denmark, 100% of our electricity is from wind on a good day and electricity prices gets negative and stuff like that. And it's a completely different industry that has popped up that is very digital actually in how you operate windmill parks and stuff like that. And that gives another pressure into the energy business. I do think there is another thing happening and that could be a disruptor which is coming from the perspective of traditionally energy has been a very physical business. So it's people and trucks and pipelines and stuff like that. But as it gets digitalized, everything is controlled, everything is networked, et cetera. The threat model, how do you disrupt the business is certainly something that can happen from North Korea or whatever. And there is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm pretty sure that it isn't good enough what we're doing and something will happen and then there will be a shift going on. Unfortunately, I think we need to learn the hard way typically on this but it's bound to happen in the oil and gas in my view. Agreed, agreed. How about your industry, yeah? Yeah, I can, I've talked already about insurance but I'll talk a little bit from my background at Proctoring Ambul about consumer packaged goods and retail. Both of those industries have been fundamentally transformed by digital and you can look at retail with Amazon, how it's completely flipped the entire model. But in the packaged goods space, I'll use the example of Dollar Shave Club. Gillette, if you're not familiar with Dollar Shave Club, Gillette it was, at least in the US, the number one brand in the razor business with something like, I want to say it was like 75 or 80% market share, just incredibly unheard of from a standpoint of dominating a single line of business. Well, this little company that was basically out of somebody's garage started selling subscriptions for razors over the internet and eventually was bought by Unilever for, I don't know what it was but it was some astronomical figure after taking a massive chunk out of that Gillette business.  And that's an example of how digital enterprises are impacting things around the world. I think you can't go anywhere anymore and not notice some sort of disruption, right? Transformation, transportation, there's even rockets, right, that guide themselves back to Earth which was unheard of a couple of years ago. It's also just to add something that Mike had said about Amazon. We all remember Amazon starting off and buying books and then compute and then I'm watching yesterday I think it was a presentation about the electric grid, the regulation and I'm going, okay, at what point it would be able to buy electricity from Amazon? Well, in Texas we can buy our electricity from any source actually, because we are, the market's opened up. So I don't know, anybody else here in Texas? Ah, you know what I'm talking about. So yeah, you can sign up for your own provider and there's different suppliers. Actually, in Denmark we can do that as well. We are very happy that both Google, Facebook and I don't know, Amazon, but Apple placed data centers in little small Denmark. But yes, we can sell them a lot of energy, but they bought it in Norway because it's an open market there as well. So I think that idea of open market and really that supply chain optimization is kind of ruling the roost here and it comes from just getting a ride to the airport or getting a product at your door. Well, and it's interesting is it's no longer just digital disruption, but it's actually now the fear of disruption is fundamentally impacting markets. A real life example that's only a couple of months old, Amazon announced that they were, I think it was with Berkshire Hathaway and Atna maybe going to take a look at rethinking health insurance. And I believe in the next couple of days the market basically took 20% out of every other healthcare provider that was publicly traded because of that fear of disruption. And so digital is even just the thought of it is having an impact. Yeah, you can't stay still anymore. There's no room for staying still and waiting for things to happen, they won't happen. So I think we're at time, we only have about 10 minutes left. I wanted to ask to see if anybody from the audience has a question for the panel. Don, you've got to have a question. Turn it on for us in the back, thank you very much. You want to say your name and company? My name is Woud Lost from Hint. I have a question related to process automation. There's a lot of data coming from sensors and all those data is going into data historian but it's all unvalidated. What are your thoughts about dealing with those kinds of data? So it's not a simple silver bullet to solve it. There's a lot of experimentation going on. I think there's two things that we see. One being that there's a need for a platform and platform is more than just a database. It's really a platform that allows you to collect, normalize, enrich and then explore the data and then act on it. And if you need to build all of that yourself in order to get your business goals out of it, it's gonna take too long. So having such a platform and being able to buy that or consume it from the cloud is gonna be important. The other thing is, and Don, my good colleague and friend would talk at length on this is the latency thing. We just had a discussion yesterday. You can't necessarily expect that you would put all the data from all of these things into the cloud because you need to react faster. There's too much data. So you will have much more distributed compute and storage at the edge and that's a new model. We're not used to managing that. So it'll create an enormous management challenge to get to that point. Yeah. And when you say at the edge, you mean where it's produced basically? Correct. Yeah. So as we think about all of the sensors and what they're producing data, one of the things that we did within my technology innovation team was we actually looked at utilizing some of the advanced technologies that we had to create new ways of visualizing the data. So for a real specific example, what we did, we took the telematics data that was coming off of the vehicles. And typically when we get that data from our telematics providers, we get 100,000 columns and a couple million rows worth of data about all of the various trips that your car would go on. And historically what we'd done was we would try to put together some graphs and things to show this. Well, what my team did was we actually took that data and created what we called trip replay. Basically we were able to emulate the trip and show you on a map your trip as it happened. Show you where you turn, show you when you slowed down, when you sped up, we showed you what the weather was and we were able to help you visualize in a different way what really happened in that trip. And it was interesting because that gave a human being who had a completely different mental model around what shouldn't, shouldn't happen a different way to look at and evaluate the data. And so I think as we look at all the data coming off of the sensors and all of the different use cases, I think we have to be creative and think of different ways to visualize and be able to comprehend that data as human beings because I think that's kind of how we're gonna gain really, truly unique insight from it. Insight's the key. Wait, for me? We got a mic coming. What I heard from Johann, who gave the presentation from Schell, he said that you needed to separate the data from the application. He also made it very, very crystal clear you have to add the metadata to it before you get it into this neutral central repository of some nature. Call it a data lake if you want to, but you need to add the metadata to it. And that's, I think, key to everybody. Separate the data from the application and add the metadata so that any application that needs that data is able to use that data and generate new data, which obviously is the reason you would extract the data, is to generate something new. But then when that new data gets created, it goes into the repository with additional metadata so that you know what that new data is. And that's, I think that's key for everybody. Yeah, and it's always been key, right? I think, you know, if you see ones and zeros, you don't know why they're there, you can't do anything with it. Linda, I think there's one in the back. Linda. We're in the back. Okay, you're gonna make Linda work for this one. Yes, you made a comment earlier about the president, the United States being a contract worker or something like that. That made me think because I talked to a lot of the patrolling refineries here in Houston regarding cybersecurity and cyber terrorism on their chemical plants, but they're all using windows. So when I tell them, how can you be secure using windows? Why don't you just download open source Linux, reconfigure it, put all the patches in where you know it is? They say, well, we're not in the IT business, we're in the oil business. And so I think they should be more in the IT business because they're responsible, as you were saying, right? How can we get there? I think we're moving away from there. So it's a good observation and it sort of confirms my suspicion about what is going on. Unfortunately, I think you need to have a disaster before you really get people to change their mindset. But there is an aspect and that goes back to saying, well, there is an IT department within that organization. There is a CIO and a risk officer of some sort. So they should think about these kind of things and IT needs to make it easier. It isn't necessarily easier to download the open source Linux and get it running because somebody had invested something in a closed platform and then you need to recompile all of that before you can actually get it secured. But IT needs to be that equivalent to the financial officers that really takes responsibility. And I think you said it also, Michael, earlier, it's you gotta change the mindset. You're a technology company that's getting oil out of the ground and transforming it to something you can consume. I think that's where the digital business flip kind of comes into play in my mind. Yeah, coming back to the role of IT in enterprise. So our observation, we hear from lot many companies. The technology and IT spending of every enterprise is going up and up. But CIO budget is going down and down. So how do you explain this or interpret this contradiction? Anybody want to take a shot at that, yeah? Everything goes in waves and there is a degree of saying who has the responsibility for the budget is not the same as who has responsibility for the rules and regulations of what is going on. But eventually technology will consume the business and be the entire expenditure that you have anyway. Anybody else? Well, I guess I had mentioned it before, but if that, and I've seen that exact case as Lars pointed out, I think IT's got a simplified process, have to look at more automation and can look at the reduction in costs. I don't think they look at it. I think just through the changes that can happen from organizationally and to a different model of service delivery, think about IT bringing more to the table in innovation and again, getting away from the cost center that Lars had mentioned. I think they can drive cost out of running IT and they can also drive innovation that will bring more into the business. I don't think, and visiting a lot of different organizations, enough organizations map what IT is doing to the business and saying what are my business goals, what are my business initiatives? If I want to increase my profit by 10% or my margin by X or whatever else, how can I use technology to do that and then map the services that IT is delivering to that? I think that's where you can start to look at saying, okay, I have a shrinking budget, but I'm driving innovation, I'm driving bottom line to the business. Yeah, and I think a lot of it's becoming, being transparent, I was showing basically where the money's going. I think a lot of organizations can't do that very well and it becomes a bit of a back black box where they create the alienation and they can create their own grave basically as a result. Yeah, I would build on that just a little bit. I think the bar is higher than it's ever been before and I think that's why the spend is shifting. The chief digital officer can go out and swipe his or her credit card and have IT and if they want to go to the IT shop within their organization, they probably have to talk to a business relationship manager who's going to work through the portfolio management process to approve the budget, who's then gonna bring in a business analyst, who's then gonna gather all the requirements, who's then gonna talk to a project manager, who's then gonna go get a developer to go build it out after they work with their architect, who's blah, blah, blah, right? So for them, it's okay, I can swipe my credit card or I can go spend the next six months talking to IT to figure out how to do the same thing and so they swipe their credit card. And it's endless. Yeah, so I have an example of a service provider in the medical industry in Denmark that we work with and they were originally an internal IT department and had all of these problems. They were split out as a separate organization needed to compete with the Amazon and they compute, I can't remember the exact number, maybe a factor five more expensive to get a server within that service provider than in Amazon. But they realized, well, they need to explain, not to make it cheaper, but explain why it was five times more expensive. It was five times more expensive because it was a compliant server. And so it's a backed up, it was following all the change processes that FDA requires, et cetera. And so, okay, if you only just want a server, swipe the card and get going, that's efficient. They don't wanna compete with Amazon on that. But if you want all of these things with it, then you can take it here. But they also put it in the catalog so you can get it within, if not an hour, then a day and not three months because that was needed in order to compete. So there's a lot about making it explicit what is the value you're bringing with your services which implies you need to think about services and not about technology. And that's a big shift for IT and the ones that can't shift, they're gonna be relevant eventually. And we have to think about seamless service delivery. Absolutely, there you go. Exactly. All right, I think we're a little past our time now. I wanted to thank the panelists here, John, Michael, Lars. Thank you. And excellent questions also from the audience. Thank you very much. Thanks Mark.