I'll call the B-Daughter, hopefully that we can be joined shortly by Carla. So I'm Robert Wernick, I'm the Chair, Tour Nelson, member of the Board. Okay, Sean Cunningham from O'Leary Burke. Matt Moore, Evernorce. David Roy with Weave and Life Here Architects. Kevin Warden, Engineering Ventures, Civil Engineer. Chuck Storrow, Attorney for Berlin Mall. Dave Sawyer, Select One. Tom Badowski, Town of Berlin. And we have the Orca videographer here as well. I'm just trying, Carla says she's trying to get on. She's trying to get on? Yeah. So good. Christy, Carla Nweezel and Kent Simon will be joining us here. You there, Carla? There she is. She's coming. She's muted. Carla, you good here now? Yeah, you wouldn't let me in. Well, there's a lot of that. Yeah, we try to keep the place simple. So we have two items on our agenda tonight. Both dealing with applications by Berlin Mall. The first is the Downstreet Community Development. And there's also a connection with that, a major subdivision. And I guess because things have been a long time since we've met and talked, I'm going to ask somebody representing the applicant to start this off and put us back into perspective. Sure. Sure, I'd be glad to do that. I think it was December 21st when we were here last year. And that was the first hearing. Excuse everyone for recording, Secretary. Can you say your name before you're speaking so she can get minutes correct? Sorry. This is Matt Moore with Ever North. We're the development partner, co-developer with Downstreet Housing and Community Development. Nicola Anderson is here on the screen with Downstreet. If I'm remembering correctly back from December, at that time we didn't get you our plans in time for you to really give our application due consideration at that meeting. That being said, we went through a presentation with the concept plan that we had at the time. And this for everybody's applications for the Fox Run project. Right. Thank you. So our project has, we've advanced with design. We were hoping to come back to the DRB in March. However, that was delayed to allow time for the town meeting and the vote to happen on the school land, which is related to the ability of the mall to relocate the road. Our project remains the same. 30 units, one building. You'll see tonight that the site plan has made some minor refinements, but is essentially the same project. We have a full landscape plan. Really, we have a complete application that would be enough for the DRB to close the hearing for our project. The mall, the other project, as I understand it, they're making some changes and weren't prepared in time to submit those changes for consideration tonight. Yes, tonight. So if I can just continue. So as I understand it, tonight we're really talking about the Fox Run project. Of course, you understand the application is for more than the Fox Run project and really for two separate projects as well as road works. So the applicant really is the mall because they're the problem of her. Correct. So I appreciate this, but just for the record, we need to distinguish that a little bit. I totally agree. As you said, there's two separate projects. And the mall is the applicant on both projects. Well, and this brings me to what I was anticipating and hoping to say before we got into the substance right of our project is to seek some clarification procedurally. The approvals, if so approved, would be granted. And the conundrum that we have where there's two separate projects and Fox Run needs to have its own permits, its own approvals. It can be under one big application, but we need to have distinct approvals for the separate applications. There's two sub, as I understand it, two subdivisions. Conditional use application for Fox Run. There's a conditional use application for the mall. There's a site plan for Fox Run, site plan approval, and site plan approval for the Starbucks. And under the bylaws, the DRB may combine review, which is what has been done because that makes the most sense because the projects are related. However, similar to two homes being planned on the street, one house has to get owned separately and financed separately and built separately with a separate contractor. Yes, they're related. They're going to drive cars out the same street, perhaps. But they would need to have their separate and distinct approvals that, at least in my mind, is what we were, is what we're expecting. Mr. Chairman, this is Jason Lazar. I'd like to speak on FA applicant and maybe redirect this if I may. Please. So you would, you know, ask for a refresher as to sort of where we are and how we got there. I think we maybe had headed down a very specific path that I'm not sure paints the entire picture, right? Here back in December with a project, a mixed use priority housing project. So you're aware of the two projects. Matt is referenced, you know, the affordable house. We have had asked for a continuance. First, we were, we were both charged as co-applicants to respond to comments that we've heard. And we're prepared to do that. This has also been a very fluid situation. And in fact, I remember one of the issues that came up. In fact, I think it was the chairman that said, you know, we see that your plan proposed a reconfigured road. And what if that doesn't happen? Do you have a plan B? And essentially, right, what we want to get to is the plan B provide for plan A. Also for plan B. As the situation has been fluid, but we didn't want to stop our collective ability to respond to comments. And so what we wanted to accomplish with this at tonight's hearing was for the Foxfront portion of this application to respond and walk you through the subset of issues related to that piece of the project. And that's why we're here today. So we do have changes to the plan that does recognize, you know, changing circumstances. And because we couldn't get those changes in time, we'll have to present that, you know, the next possible opportunity. But since Foxfront has, has his plans and is prepared to speak on them, we thought that would help advance the ball tonight. Bob. Yeah, Carla, please. So I have to, I have to not, I have to ask what these changes are, because if you're submitting a new application, we need a new hearing with a new warning. We are, we are not submitting a new application. Not you. I'm talking about. I'm directing this at Jason. Yeah. Again, we're modifying a plan. Nothing is worth, I shouldn't say nothing, right? The scope of what we're attempting to do is similar to what you guys have seen before. What is the modification? We were asking, well, again, you're, you know, we wanted to submit that so then you could then hear it and ask questions about it. But essentially it recognizes the road to point configuration. We recognize that the new town center relies on a reconfigured road. And we watched to see if that could be accomplished. We recognize that the reconfiguration of that road relies on us transferring a part of our land to make that parcel developable. We've proposed a number of ways to make that happen where we're interested in making it happen, but we don't see it today. We're happy to continue to work at it, but we want to get the project, our collective project, which doesn't require the road to be located. We'd like to get that approved and move forward on that basis. I'm having trouble understanding how that can happen, but I guess maybe I'm one of five. Well, I share that concern, Carla. I mean, I would like to hear where we are with regard to this application, this part of your application, but it really is part of a bigger application. So I don't know how technically, ultimately, when we get to the bottom line here, how we can approve a part of an application and not separate the application. I'm wrestling with that and I don't think I've ever been faced with this problem before. Because we're a separate application by every north and the mall. We could hear that and we still hear it, but perhaps there's an administrative thing that needs to be done here which separates us. Yeah, if I might. Kevin Orton with Engineering Ventures, civil engineer on behalf of Fox Run. I've seen this before where a project starts off as one and then it's clear that it needs to be bifurcated looking at the application. All the information for both sites is on that application. I've seen it be as simple as photocopying the application because you're going to have two files. There's actually two current applications in front of you. One is for the subdivision which needs to be considered and run through before you can consider individual lots. And then there's distinct lots which each need to live on their own in the future separately because you'll have different timeframes as we're seeing tonight. We're going to have them advance differently and have something that comes up that's going to slow down one or accelerate the other. You're going to have different periods of construction and the town is going to have to issue you know, certificate of occupancies and that can be challenging if they're bound together in one permit. And then you have other things such as funding that's alluded to that probably has strings attached especially with affordable housing that could complicate things. But I'm happy to go over the plan. I did not bring a board. I thought we might be using a screen. But the main thing I wanted to convey as a civil engineer is the plan for Fox Run is entirely discreet and can be reviewed and constructed and infrastructure can be provided discreet in the other project if that's a concern or consideration. I just want to refer to the point now where both parties agree to separate those applications. Pull the application for the co-development. Each file their own separate applications. Each then can do site planning and conditional use on their own separate tracks not independent of each other. To me my sense is that this may be a waste of this board's time hearing this tonight if ultimately the decision is to go separately. Because if it goes separately it has to be re-worn again. It has to give public notice. It has to have, you know, you have to go through that regulatory process. And my concern is that the Fox Run project may be so ahead of the Berlin mall that we haven't seen what they're planning here, right? And it's been four months, right? So I just wonder if you or your clients have given that consideration that that may be the best alternative for everybody now. All fees get returned to everybody. You know, there's no loss of monies. You go through the warning process again. I'm just saying that that may be the easiest solution to this. Mr. Chair, if I may. Please. So, you know, that's the thing, that's the decision that the Berlin mall and the Fox Run folks need to work out among themselves. It's not a discussion for the board.  Berlin mall folks are not prepared tonight to give their full presentation on what they're proposing. We're proposing to come back the first meeting in May and give you all the information that we have. So I think your choice tonight is you can't give an approval because you don't have all the information. All you can elect to do tonight is listen to the additional information that Fox Run is prepared to give and then continue the meeting to the next available date so that you can hear the remainder of the Berlin mall associates proposal. But we're not here to talk about splitting the applications. You've got one application that's worn.  Yeah. Tom, did you have a response to that? No, I understand that, Paul, but I'm just saying if the parties are agreeable to split and maybe they're not. Well, that's the rub, Tom, is they're not necessarily agreeable at this point in time to split. Yeah. You're right. That's the decision for you, but we have to decide if the application is going to change enough that we have to rewarn it. I agree. And we don't know that you do, but you know, I think that's also that's something for the board to consider is do we just say, okay, no more continuances because this isn't happening. We aren't seeing it all. Do we need to just scrap this continuing and get refiled? Please. Thank you, sir. This is exactly why we need to have separate approvals. Case in point. We have an applicant who says they are changing the plan and it's been four months and we find out about it at the last minute. The bottom line for us is that we need to be able to get our permits for our building, get it financed cleanly, unrelated to Starbucks. We can't have any conditions that relate to Starbucks, otherwise our deal is done and we need to be able to build the road. We need to be able to get a certificate of occupancy clearly for our building and move people in there. So, if I can just finish, thank you. This is a really, this is a very good discussion. If the board is seeing that it needs to be, that it cannot amend the current application and issue separate approvals, and it's better for us to have a separate application than I think it's best for us not to waste anybody's time tonight. We will go home and we will come back in two weeks. We have submitted our plan. That's what we're running with. The mall, how do you feel about that? Separate these? This is really not a, I don't think it's a proper discussion for us to have it. We've spoken about this with our partner. We've talked about it numerous times. Clearly, we're still evolving, but it's not the path we chose. I'm going to, you're really asking for a decision from the DRB here, which I think, in my opinion, needs to be deliberated by the DRB and issue whether or not we proceed.  I would love to see what changes are. I would love to have an understanding of those changes. But I don't see how we can act on those changes until we clarify what the application is. So, do we do that tonight? Or do we do that once we've had a change in reapplication, if you will? And as part of it says, I hate to waste your time being here, but we're here and that's something we can't deal with. We can't make an ultimate decision on. So perhaps we should just re-warn it separately and the applicants, co-applicants need to get a new application in here and we'll just warn it that way. We'll separate them and deal with that this way. That's my gut reaction. I'm just talking out loud as one person on the board. If you need a decision on the board, we probably need to deliberate this decision. How do you feel, Karla? You know, I just, I'm uncomfortable entertaining the idea of continuing an application that is that's going to be changed and I do think that this split is an issue and it seems as though there's not agreement and I don't think we should necessarily be deciding that for them, but I don't know why Fox Run doesn't have the option of filing on their own. I mean, is that something that they don't have the option to do? I think they do have that option. That's the way I'm playing. What do you think to her? I'm not going to warn you, Polly, but he's right here. No, that's fine. You guys are all the legal eagles. I don't know about that, but yeah, I agree. I don't see how we can move forward you know, what the application has presented if, you know, we're looking at a potential split or major changes down the road. Yeah.  The vision for Fox Run tonight, but that's all it's going to be. It's just a vision. It's not going to be anything more depth on that. But basically, basically, if I could just add for one moment, you know, I think folks are throwing around the word changes. Obviously, we know what they are, right? We've done them. We haven't submitted because they're not timely, right? If you submitted that this morning, that wouldn't be timely. We're going to look at something without, you know, the proper time. I don't want to speak on behalf of my design professionals, but they contain things that this board has seen before. So, I wouldn't just say, oh, well, we don't know what's coming and they're going to be changes and make that label dictate the course of action. All the things I think you're going to see are going to be familiar to you. Well, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, we have our packet from the first hearing, then we've got another packet a few weeks after that, and then yesterday there was another email. I don't know how much that changed from the previous, so you know, I don't even know at this point what we're dealing with anymore. Well, the problem is we're dealing with an application that really involves access, roadways, two projects, one application, two projects, two separate projects, and my sense is not projects are proceeding on the same course. Right. If that's a reasonable statement of where we are, then we probably need to separate the projects and re-worn them separately, so we can just simply deal with one project at a time. Same applicants, but it's just a different project in that it only deals with Fox Run. Well, my thought is that they need to decide about separating, but we can't make a decision on a half a project. So, I mean, we couldn't issue a decision tonight if we don't have all the information on both halves. You're correct. Fox Run could submit an application independent. Yeah. But they haven't yet. They have that right to do that, right? Well, they and the mall, there's still no problems with that. So, Fox Run could submit an application just for their site planning conditional use on their own. They could submit it tomorrow if they wanted to. That's up to you. And the mall then have to decide that their co-applicant is not going to participate in this original in their original filing and address that somehow, right? But they have, we have no right to tell Fox Run that they cannot submit an application. We have no right to say that. Well, the only person who can submit an application is they have to probably learn. Correct. They cannot submit unless furlough mall associates signs the application as the property owner. Correct. What we would like, Mr. Chairman, is a continuation to the May 3rd meeting. On May 3rd we will have all the plans available to present. We'll give them to you three weeks in advance so you can review them. We'll tell you our entire scope of work, what we're proposing for the site work, what we're proposing and what Fox Run is proposing at that time. The whole kitten caboodle on May 3rd we're prepared to go forward with that. But we'd be asking for a continuation tonight. One more continuation you'll get the whole bit, May 3rd. I'm going to be very frank. The problem I'm having with this is that you know what your changes are and you could have at least given us a heads up as to what they are, but you won't so that we could decide whether it was a substantial change. So I have a little bit of an issue with that. But they all just have to you know hope that it's not because the I mean there's a possibility if it is then that delays it even more. The worst case for us is come May 3rd you decide it's a major change and you ask us to re-warn the meeting and start or re-warn the project and start from the beginning. Just would request that you continue us to May 3rd so we can make our presentation to you.  We didn't feel it was fair to send that down to the town and ask for a review for the plans two or three days before the meeting. Sort of continuation of how my whole day has gone today. But but yeah Tom I'm almost at the end of where I want to be though. The May 3rd is full. So outside of this application. So that would mean the 17th. That's acceptable to us. Pardon? That's acceptable to us the May 17th. I don't know that we have any reason not to grant the applicant's request for a continuation to May 17th. Is there any member of the board feel that we have no reason to do that? I have no problem with that. No. It's their decision. Yeah. I think Carla you look like you're up in the air. I'm not in favor of it but you will outvote me so that's fine. Well Carla no I think what would you I think you're right. They haven't given us grounds to not continue it because they didn't show us the changes. So I would say you're probably right. We don't have a reason not to continue it by design. Our project is fully funded including ARPA funding. There is a massive need for housing in the community. There's a lot of people that have been behind us for years and want to see this get built. That being said I'm fine with May 17th because in the big picture I think we will be fine. What's important to me and I'm not asking tonight for any action but what we need is assurance and an understanding of how our project can move forward independently if it needs to and right now that is not clear to me. I think you need to have ownership of your piece of ground through a subdivision right because it sounds to me that the mall would not sign your application and that happens permanently where the land owner will sign somebody else's application. Sounds like they're not willing to do that so my answer to you would be you need to get ownership of that land free and clear and then you could submit an application. We will not purchase the property until it's fully permitted and fully financed and our investors will not say yes to a project if there is a set of zoning approvals and building permits and certificate of occupancy that are meshed together with conditions and it's confusing. I appreciate that and very frankly I'm not happy with the delays that we've seen on this project for one reason or another and I'm not happy about delaying it further to me at this point at least to me was one member of the board that we continue this to the Bay 17 so we can sort this out and what I do think perhaps sorting it out might be by separating them. That's my opinion. I would continue to hear it together if you want to continue with that way but there may be a good argument and you can submit you need to work out with them all with the argument for separating them you know because you need to move forward for the reasons you stated. So I would climb to grant the request for a continuous but I ask you to consider seriously is how you continue this or do we re-warn it because we have time now re-warn it separately. It's two separate projects one project involving the other building and the other and part of that is access and mobility but they're connected so and we're and I'm sorry to jump in without recognition from you here but I want to say that we want to we are happy to we want to we want the board to hear the applications as a combined review we want you to keep looking at the project as a whole because it is it will operate as a whole all we're asking for is the ability to move forward so I think we can have our cake and eat it too we can combine the review for coordination purposes we're happy to delay again if it's clearly understood by everyone that there's a clear path for us and we need to understand that soon because we want to go to act 250 we want to get our water wastewater permit we're waiting to start our construction drawings until this gets resolved we want to get to work Matt and the hurdles not in the town of Berlin it's your relationships your collective relationships you guys need to get your house in order and decide what's best to do it's not the town of Berlin the town of Berlin cannot do what you are asking it to do it can't it just can't do that it can't grant you an approval if you don't own the land so you've got to do the subdivision you know why we're not hearing the subdivision today we had nothing to do with any of this stuff we're not hearing the subdivision again it's not the town of Berlin that's the hurdle here it's really not it's your two relationships you guys need to work out that I'm sorry to say that Sean Gunningen representing the mall subdivision couldn't take place because potentially the property lines my purpose was property lines may change but I couldn't really be talked about either well I'm inclined to hear a motion to approve a continuance to the May 17th the May 17th second second to be a polly is there a discussion on that motion further discussion on that motion hearing none all those in favor of that motion to continue this for the 17th both parts subdivision and the it doesn't have to be the subdivision but it doesn't have to be so I'm assuming this so I'm going to suggest we do that so all those in favor of that motion please signify by saying aye opposed I'm abstaining yes I didn't yeah normally when you don't have a you have to do a roll call so polly how do you vote in favor tour how do you vote in favor you abstain and the chair votes in favor so the motion carries and we're continuing to the 17th on both applications thank you Mr. Chair thank you there's any other business there's one item of business which is the minutes minutes of February 15th I don't remember it was a it was a continuance so it's okay yeah there's nothing and I have it in front of me so I'm going to make the motion to approve the minutes with February 15th discussion edits hearing none all those in favor of that motion please signify by saying aye aye aye Carly with us or not yeah that's the problem with zoom I'm trying to look at the zoning regulations I'll listen to you at the same time well I'm sorry I'll come here she was zoomed we'll get there it seems like people are motivated to figure it out and we'll figure it out we would like to see you would it be good to have a board or can you present on the screen you can't present on the screen people need to bring a laptop turn on each to your foot I have a mic your turn okay I saw it disappearing are we adjourning yeah unless there's other business to come before the board tonight I would entertain the motion to adjourn and I think I just heard it from Tour


Hey Virgo, welcome back to my channel. This is Kelly from House of Virgo. This is a strictly Virgo channel Hope you are all doing well. Hello everyone in the chat. Welcome. Welcome. If you guys want to get a personal reading There's a link in the description box below this video. Please do hit like share and subscribe so I Know that when you hit like on the video I Feel like you guys really enjoy my readings and that means a lot to me And it pushes the video out for more people to view all right, so We are almost at 11,000 so you guys are like really kicking but helping me out here And I'm just so grateful seriously It's all because of you. All right, so thank you. All right, let's get started. Let's see what your Messages are here. Okay, five of pentacles two of wands Six of swords four of wands king of wands Eight of wands two of pentacles face of wands page of wands. Holy All right, you guys some of you are definitely dealing with a fire sign. I Feel it Fire fire Pumpkin Sire that's I mean All right, let me see. I want to take a look at the bottom of the deck. Oh my gosh Go into the chapel and where Okay, maybe not actually going to show me a few maybe okay, somebody's coming in offering their love You're like they don't want to miss the opportunity here not ready to let you go Okay, give that long-term security making change in their life coming towards you Could be visiting from afar this person like they have plugged in their coordinates and Their path Takes them right to you and they know this.  I just heard some of you say Well, yeah, I kind of knew that but they don't act like it. Okay. Well, they're kind of This is someone who is Look at the pinnacle there in front of the chest area I Feel like this person has kind of a blocked heart Or they just don't let you see or haven't really let you see what's inside their heart very guarded with their heart But look at this night of cups here. I mean the night of cups is kind of like This person admires you They have very strong feelings for you. They admire you so much. I Feel like they're gonna come towards you right now. They're kind of blocked, but I feel like that energy is gonna change. Oh They just gave me here you go. Well Spirit said show them real quick and then take it away. Okay. Well the night of sorts was there and it's gone It flew away Because it's fast the night of sorts is like boom very fast energy And I feel like this person is coming in pretty darn quick for this time period. All right, let's take a look. So that's cancer Energy we also have Aries Leo Sagittarius. Okay, one of the love messages here for you Virgo Let your friends help you ask for and accept support from others Okay, so your person is in this position right now Currently, I feel like your person is Leaning on other people Their friends are helping them come towards you They have good people around them Supportive people and very soon. Yeah, listen, I mean sometimes you just look at a reading a Quick glance and I've already got it Okay, and it just feels to me like There and it sounds so cliche and I really don't want to give you a very cliche reading But it feels to me like this person Had a hard time to love you because he didn't love themselves and They struggled with that this person really struggled with that, you know and I feel like There's something going on here with them where They're friends it feels like they're friends very close supportive people Have been like talking to them maybe one or two or Sisters or just some friends or someone that a friend with a baby Or brothers, but they're getting the support and Somebody's saying to them. What are you waiting for a certain shade of green? That's my favorite song by the way, that's from Incubus What are you waiting for?  What are you waiting for and your person struggles? You know, I mean, I Don't know why they struggle, but I just feel like It had a lot to do with they didn't feel like they were worthy or deserving of someone as amazing as you Virgo so they kind of sabotage the relationship and They're lonely and now they're like heavily leaning on their friends.  That's You know This person right now. Okay. That's how I feel is sitting with this five of pentacles here They're like completely crippled. Do you know what I mean?  I just kind of feel like They know they got to do something and they're kind of avoiding it and just hoping other people Well in a way to help them do things for them, but then at the same time their friends are saying to them Why are you wasting your time hanging around with us? Why are you spending so much time? You've got a great love out there. You've got Virgo out there to have a magnificent life with Face your fears six of sorts Go after Virgo open that door open the communication stop being afraid stop leaning on us We can't do it for you. We can't take care of this situation Quit waiting quit making Virgo wait quit waiting What are you waiting for? Look love is like right there Their friends are saying or their dear people in their life are saying to them Giving them the support and the end your person's like how how do I do this? How do I do this?  What do I say Virgo won't talk to me or Virgo? I don't know if I'm I don't know Virgo will accept my love or my my offer my cup of love You know and their friends. I feel like are saying to them. All right, where does Virgo live? Let's get in the car get in the car go over there Talk to Virgo Come out of that hidden Ups like dark tight. This is like someone who's like a uptight uptight stiff scared Dear in the headlights yet, they know that you're like the best thing since sliced bread for them and yet You There's stiff like a bad like your whole body is having like a Charlie whore's leg cramp like I can't move I can't I'm so afraid Virgo won't take me back and There I just feel like their friends are saying well at least try do something don't he can't be hanging around with us all the time Make the plans to do something strike out get out of your comfort zone and and this is what this person's doing Okay, devising a plan two of swords with the six of swords because What's going on here? All right, what I feel like is happening here Your person has been stalemating your connection for a really long time. Why because they were scared Fearful that they have to ask their friends. They're afraid of they were afraid of everything just crashing down or getting their ego Hurt or being rejected here, but they're their friends or the other people whoever's around them supporting them telling them Look, this is a card of facing your fears Overcoming mental anguish before like keeping the fear at your feet Before it takes over you and you never do anything you have to control the fear You have yet, you know the brain you start getting nervous about something you feel that rush of panic And that fear coming up from your feet up your legs and it starts rising like a like a heat like heat And you got to push it down so you don't fear stamp stamp my feet I'm doing this my head's in control and so I feel like your person is kind of in this position like they have great great propensity for anxiety and fear and it feels mostly like being rejected maybe because they have such a big ego and you know what Love and that big ego cannot coexist right love and fear cannot coexist that big ego is always a front for fear and this person is Trapped because like they realize that they truly truly like it's a real love between you and They're in this battle between do I let my fears overtake me or do I let the love like do I let the love overtake me I have to make a decision You know, what's that song? Keep hearing these incubus songs Whatever tomorrow brings I will be there Should I My favorite song and I can't remember the words Let the fear over let the fear take the wheel and drive Or should I take the wheel and drive, you know This is kind of where your person is here and they do it and they come to you they make this decision They make a decision Boom eight of wands chasing after you Expect a lot of messages coming from this person in October and Travel and where are you and I'm in love with you and they just they vomit it So now this person goes from being so blocked and not being someone who Opens their emotions or expresses how they feel now They're at the other extreme because they break open that dam and here comes the night of cups And now they want to marry you and now they did it and you're like Who are you, you know, and so so now you're like I'm so confused but it's because they get the courage and That's what the king of wants is Courageous, okay, and because they get the support from their friends Like I guess they needed a little boost or something and their friends or family members or Whomever whoever they're close to just gives them the courage Some people have the courage and some people, you know, don't I mean, it's real courage. It's not false courage So the four of wands and the lovers, okay, the decision gets me and I'm telling you in Virgo. I'm telling you in October You're getting a proposal Ace of wands on the king of wands. Here you go Brand new passionate fiery physical, of course, I mean this person listen Virgo How can I put this with the state of wands, you know, I'll say this if you're dealing with a I'm even I don't even know what to call people anymore in this day and age So I'm just gonna just gonna be me if you're dealing with the male. This person gets pretty Boing for you. Okay, and if you're dealing with a female Same with them, but they just don't you can't see it Boom you just switch it out how you want. Okay, but I feel like this person is very Physically like so much fire and passion here, you know They get like their mojo back. I hear Lot of communication The chariot change travel. Oh my it's so amazing to me sometimes how these readings go, okay? Now for somebody this could be somebody new And I'm just gonna put this out here right now. This doesn't have to be your past person This could very well be somebody new who's got their eye on you and just doesn't have the courage to come towards you And it's a fire sign Okay If you're done with the past And like that's like that's been done and or you have nobody you've got a Leo's Sagittarius Areas coming in or someone who's very bold and fiery and passionate, okay? And for some this could be both because it is mercury retrograde So we do get that entered cancer is here twice. Okay, so sometimes we do get those You know replace sometimes those replays come in and Let's take a look here. This person does definitely makes this decision You know and I say this all the time right when you're in a position, right? Like you are trying to the whole law of attraction thing, right? You got to be specific with that right and you and you got to manifest But you got to be clear and you have to be like you have to make a decision, you know You can't just say alright listen if if you say You put it out in the universe that you would like to have an apple The universe will provide you with an apple, but it might have a worm or it might be rotten Or it might be sour or it might not be what you like the type of apple you like or it might be It's hit or miss. You have to be specific. You have to clearly Decide what you want so that it comes to you now That's how the law of attraction works and when you do that don't I'm saying don't but Make sure that you don't use the words No, don't Doesn't want don't tell the universe what you don't want because they don't understand that It's about the law of attraction if you tell the universe what you don't want They're gonna bring you that Because you're asking for it. They don't understand don't they don't understand nothingness They understand something this okay, and I just kind of feel like that's really important for you guys to understand here I know some of you know that but for others The the other way it works, too, is that you have to act as if you already have it and then you will have it It's kind of like Jim Carrey Jim Carrey said I once wrote a blank Wrote on a blank check one million dollars. I paid myself before I received the money and guess what happened He got the money right you have to act as if you already have it and that's how you get what you want So if you guys have been doing that well here comes your person But there's Gemini energy here, too I feel like Your person's definitely like decision decision Definitely is deciding they're coming for you. They're coming after you They're coming to do it right here with you the right way like and what do I mean by that? I mean without being in fear-based or without running away without sabotaging or without playing the victim like seeing The blessing for what it is the blessing in disguise this person. It wasn't in disguise. They were covering it up They were hiding it. They were blocking their heart.  You have a golden opportunity here with Virgo Hello, little bit of a wake-up call would be surprised as the tower shows up here in this. Oh, it is here See, that's it wake-up call and now this person's making plans waiting for the right time and they come forward October you're gonna be leaving me messages.  Can you cups in the night of cups? Okay?  How do I say it the other day? My cup runneth over my cupeth runneth and spilleth over it this person I'm telling you is coming in you guys are gonna be like the proposal the love the expression of emotion Is coming here this king of cups cancer Scorpio Pisces energy? Okay, and that just flew out like as a side thing wasn't clarifying so for some of you it's fire for some of you it's water and If your person is not either one of those and this is somebody new and For some it might be two people. Hey Do your thing? Do your thing Virgo? All right, so let's take a look here. Oh man page of wands this person. I'm telling you so smitten with you and And ace of wands here underneath the ace of wands holy Smokes Smoke where there's fire where there's smoke. There's fire.  There's a spark Relighting of these the spark or you know, you're You're Boing Listen, I am not shy.  I'm in person Like I'm very candid. I'm one of those Virgos, but I just cannot have YouTube like are my sponsors? Striking me down. It's happened before I used to use another tarot deck and it had some graphic photos on it Explicit photos and somebody reported me and then I got strikes. This is like five years ago or something and it's like It's whatever So I stopped using them, but boy are they explicit? Maybe one day I'll start using them again. We'll see Anyway Yeah, this person like they're gonna be holding on to it for you free females Okay, and free males they're gonna hold on to it for you I Not even drink. I don't even drink, you know, all right. Let's take a look here They're very attracted to you also because you're truly like loving yourself So much Virgo It's like Virgo. I just kind of feel like you like I don't need you. I Don't need you. I Got me. Oh, I love my I love me some some self right now. Oh, yeah And that is really Bringing this person even more like they're like double double night of cups ace of cups ace of wands. I mean Okay, here's the Sun it's a yes Virgo you some of you might say yes to this proposal you might weigh it up a little bit Okay, and when I say proposal, I know for some of you. It's just Then coming in and you know, I want to be with you forever and ever and ever happily ever after I love you Can we can we be together?  You're already like yes, but you're gonna present as uh, I Don't know I got a lot going on right now Let me think about it If you want to say yes say yes If you want to say don't maybe is passive aggressive do not say maybe maybe is That's so rude People who say maybe even all the time, you know, like if they go you ask a question they go maybe That's maybe to me is always a no it's just a passive aggressive way of saying no So if you if you want to say no Virgo just say no But some of you are gonna say yes Okay, you don't have to like jump up and down if you're trying to like be cool And you don't have to like jump up and down. Yes. Yes.  Whatever you want to do Leo energy here Some of you. All right, let's see These are ones and the page of cups. Okay, you know what the reading is speaking for itself And I was saying it yesterday as well the higher font marriage commitment and The Empress ooh interesting this person Looks at you Like the Empress and the Emperor of course male or female is the Queen and the King of Like they are the Queen and the King of all the Queens and the Kings You know, this is like all the signs wrapped up in into one and this person looks at you Virgo male or female like you are the Top of the line you are the your grade a Your USDA choice meet you and I don't mean that that way, but you are like you're like the Michael Kors bag of The purse world I Mean you're everything this person is just so they can't they're just it's like a childhood crush. They just You know Or you're just like top of the line you're like the cream of the crop Virgo That's how they see you I know some of you are like no, I'm not I got holes in my jeans I haven't had a shower in three days.  I don't know.   I'm probably gonna get like busted for this on this channel But it you're just being your person doesn't see you that way. They don't see your flaws They see you like this Okay, and others of you, I know you're not feeling that way about yourself and that's good. That's fine You're accepting yourself, but this person you could do no wrong and you're I feel like they view you as being More worthy than they are to our synergy Leo Libra as being more worthy as being like They look at you. It's kind of like in high school, you know the popular one and then there was Everybody else and everybody else wanted to be with the popular one I can it some of you were the popular one in school when you were younger When that used to I don't know if that's still a thing, but maybe it is but and They are kind of like I don't know in not in that group and they look at you and They just have always felt like or they do just feel like they could never have someone like you But their friends are like, I feel like this is a high school reading Their friends are so many or that's what it feels like or like The heck is going I know most of my listeners are not in high school But I don't know this person Is getting like a boost and they're like their friends or other people are pushing them like go ask her out Go ask him out. Go go go. You can do it.  All right. All right, let's get into some Love messages here if they could tell me if you could She loves me Why I feel this way And what I must do If you could only see how blue her eyes can be When she says When she says she loves me, excuse me. I'm having a moment that song Seriously, I don't know what that song is called. But all right, let's see I'm getting to the point now where I'm singing out. I'm like singing out the full song So anybody know what that song is called. Please tell me it's like very early 2000s Late 90s alternative, I guess. All right, come on. Give us some cards spirit. Let's see Stability this relationship can stand the test of time That's interesting that that's coming out because it kind of feels like your person kind of feels like Virgo's not gonna want to be with me or Virgo's gonna dump me or not think I'm good enough or it's gonna go with the other popular person. Do you know it's usually Do you usually like It's always like oh, well the popular people should be together, but it's it doesn't always end up that way Does it it's usually I feel like The popular person always ends up with an unpopular person. So when I say popular I just mean I Don't necessarily mean like popular among friends or things like that I'm using that as kind of like an example, but what I mean is Your Kind of like on top of this mountain and your person is down on the ground and they're looking up at you and they're like Oh my gosh, Virgo is so amazing Can this work out? Can we be together? Is it like is this possible and the message here is Stability, yes, this relationship can stand the test of time very much like a mountain stands the test of time Okay Trust it is safe to trust in this situation Very nice We like that Spiritual lesson this person is in your life to teach you a spiritual lesson lesson vice versa. I feel like Paula Abdul I Don't feel like Paula Abdul, but this song we go together No, that's not it that's Katy Perry I just but I heard Paula Abdul opposites attract, but then what's that Katy Perry song? Somebody tell me Boundaries firm boundaries are needed now. Okay. I don't know why what's going on here Obstacles, okay Okay, this alright, so this is your person your person. Um, I Just kind of feel like it's a jellyfish or has been a jellyfish So boundaries why are why are boundaries important for ourselves? Boundaries are important because they give us a sense of stability Within ourselves they give it when we put boundaries up For ourselves not for other people. You don't have to go around putting boundaries up for everybody you meet You have to have boundaries for yourself. It's a form of self-discipline. It's a form of self-love When you put a boundary up you can say to yourself, I'm not going to eat chocolate cake anymore because it's bad for me That's my boundary. I'm not crossing that boundary. It's a part of self-care. Okay, I Don't know if this is your person. It could be or it's something with you your person though did not have boundaries with themselves and they kind of just allowed people to walk all over them or they Allowed themselves to take advantage of themselves, right? Nobody betrays us more than ourselves We are our biggest betrayers and we can't get through with ourselves about who we are and trust ourselves How can we trust anybody else and how can anybody else trust us, right? People want to feel safe with each other if you don't have boundaries You people don't feel safe with you. It's up to us to create a safe space for ourselves and That in turn by default has a triple down effect A trickle down effect and it creates safety in relationships, right? So That's the biggest obstacle What I'm seeing here Maybe for both of you or your person the biggest obstacle is to be able to learn how to set boundaries for self That is what heals codependency Being true and honest and self-disciplined. Okay, and sometimes, you know Sometimes there are areas where self-discipline is apparent, you know For example, you're not going to throw your trash on the ground You know what goes in the trash can especially if it's in your kitchen, right? That's a boundary like that's self-care You don't want dirt around you but other things like too much drinking or too much partying or too much over eating, you know or Flirting around too much or just, you know, everything has to be in moderation So your person, I feel like is kind of learning right now how to put up boundaries for themselves and not be a doormat Obsession, but they're obsessed with you Virgo, let me tell you something. There's something about you with this person as I explained before That is giving change to this person Love is the only thing That can make a man or a woman change true love and that is point blank period Love is the only thing That can make somebody change, want to change Okay That's it When a man falls in love with the woman of his dreams And she's the one for him Damn right he will want to change and he will want to please her and the same for a woman But you both got to be there at the same time because otherwise one is giving too much in the relationship, okay? So that's where the dilemma always is This person is so obsessed with you want so much to be with you is Overcoming their fear and is willing to overcome to heal these wounds To have forward movement, okay to make change to be what you need them to be or what you're looking for I mean When we have the night of cups twice in a reading from two different decks That's a pretty clear aside to me that that's what's going on here Okay, some of you might have been just friends friends at work This person was fronten They were hiding behind the friendship mask This person might have been around you And just kind of being your friend or just an acquaintance of seeing you at work and just being casual Little do you know deep inside? This person's like, oh, I gotta be with Virgo. I gotta do this help me help me Where do I get the courage and that's you know, they've talked into their friends Asking for advice. They've been pushing them towards you. Yeah Now I don't know. I don't know if you guys For some of you this if this is a past person For some of you, I'm hearing if this is a past person your person never had the courage to come forward And some of you just settled for friendship with them But deep in your heart, you really wanted to be with them or you just settled for Acquaintances or just casual Just whatever chit chat now and then or on the phone or text or something or see each other when you see each other and But it's because they weren't able to get the courage to come towards you, right Come out of their comfort zone and I feel like well now they're starting to happen And this is really just a message from spirit that it is leading to more it is going in this direction here Yep, this person is having a taking a leap of faith here with you Virgo But you get safe Virgo get yourself safe make yourself a safe person Everybody needs a safe word. Everybody needs a safe person People don't want to be with people that they don't feel safe with That's it.   Yeah, I love you I love you to death.  Yeah, see the difference Love is great. Love does make people change But your love does not change somebody.  No, you can love someone to your blue in the face They're not going to change.  That is impossible.  That's guidance That's it. I'm not telling you what to do. You do whatever you want to do. Okay Advice now I'm going to give you your advice Virgo, how you guys doing? I'm inclined to wish you all a happy birthday, but it's over September is over that month went fast All right, a whole bunch of cards here All the lovers Embrace true love and deep intimate friendships make choices from the heart Vibrant health a recovery from an illness. Okay Good for you. Um This this is just all about the love here. Look at them holding hands Joining in union with each other A lot of handholding is going to start happening in the month of october or there's going to be Holding each other's hand and here's the ace of fire again. Okay. That's three times An amazing opportunity a little boing boing Be bold courageous and optimistic. Now is the time to take action. Do what you're passionate about Okay Keep that fire burning. Somebody has an iguana or a bearded dragon And a magic wand Oh Crazy, that's here twice now. All right, some of you have a beardy or a iguana Is going to have a baby Or is going to have I don't know. What are these baby lizards called? Okay Page of fire enthusiastic optimistic creative Passionate texts back and forth. I just heard news of exciting opportunities allowing your creativity to soar Do things that fuel your passions and burgo Finish what you start whatever you have whatever you're doing right now. Make sure you finish That thing that you're working on book painting art creation project Job search whatever get to the end of it Okay, eight of swords The illusion of entrapment a lack of self confidence that makes you feel help Helpless being afraid to take action take responsibility for your life now. This is your person Okay, and this is what's happening. They're coming out of this eight of swords energy of feeling like mentally trapped Reducing back to the six of swords coming out of the comfort zone facing their fears With courage and strength Okay, and so your advice is to pay attention to that. That's what's happening with them. Okay Just just be mindful of that. That's all leo energy again Personal power and assertiveness portrayed with kindness compassion that brings about forgiveness realizing Them realizing that they're stronger than they knew Okay, and so is this love So your advice really here as far as this other person or what's going on here is to be mindful of it That's all just to pay attention To see beyond the veil of things. Okay um All right, let's get some charms whole Bunch, where shall we start? Here's a guitar this time this time All right, it's an electric guitar. I just heard somebody's bartender Um, this time it's an electric guitar. Okay, maybe you work in a place where there's music or you you play electric or rock you play um guitar some of you are like restringing your guitars or need to I I play guitar and um, I never restring my guitars like I'll leave them on until they break But I get it um So yeah, definitely into music and We have a um a pinnacle here Virgo.   All right um Which you know what? It's not unlike Virgo to be doing well financially and if you're not doing well financially right now You're just not in your bliss yet, but you'll be you'll get there. You'll be fine Just sometimes Virgo you just gotta stop overthinking the negative and just put all your energy into more action Let's talk more action All right. So again, I was saying like a bottle opener here. Somebody's a bartender. Are you using a bottle opener right now? Okay Hmm They're just giving me another message about that pinnacle something Special is in um A money jar If you have a money jar There's something in them in the money jar that may surprise you. I don't know what that means I feel like for some of you this money jar, um Oh Okay for something they just now they're telling me monkey.  You just flip them in a jar Something I don't know. I guess go look in the money jar Oh, okay watermelon watermelon sugar high All right, so I don't know watermelon for somebody who I I just saw lip gloss watermelon lip gloss and then um Something to do with watermelon these seeds. I see these seeds These are so many Seeds planting Planting some seeds To come out with something juicy and sweet in your life here. Maybe you're eating watermelon right now I mean, it could be anything, right? Sometimes the messages are very strange Maybe you're eating who would be eating watermelon in september I mean, I guess it's possible if you have like a little fruit bowl There's just something here to do with watermelon or there's someone who plays does cover songs and does that song watermelon sugar by Is that the Jonas brother? I don't know who it is All right Lord have mercy We've got a white cross for purity.  Okay Fireman something to do with a fireman. All right. I'm not going to do the singles y'all because I don't even know why I say y'all I'm up here in philly in new jersey We don't even say that here, but I'm not going to do the singles I'm going to give that a break for a little bit and I'm going to leave your reading there I will see you guys on october 1st for the live stream I have a good bit of you have already applied for the moderator. So I'll be reaching out. Hopefully tomorrow. I mean, um Yeah, I'm looking over it and then maybe me on monday. I think I'm going to reach out to everybody on monday because I'm still kind of Organizing everything here. So I hope you enjoyed that reading. Have a great night. I will see you guys tomorrow Thanks for being in the chat. Thank you for super chats if you've posted any I truly appreciate it and I'll see you guys tomorrow. Bye


And welcome to today's healthy marriage. I'm your host, Charlene Lamers, executive director for Great Marriages for Sheboygan County. Today's topic is fighting for your marriage, part two. Our guest today is Sally Isley. She's a marriage educator and mentor for Great Marriages. So we'd like to welcome you to our show today, Sally. Thank you. You know, we talked a little bit about the book. The topic today is the fighting for your marriage and it's based on the book by Markman Stanley and Bloomberg. So last time we talked about fighting for your marriage and what a great tool it is to help couples. You know, it's preventative tool to keep them on the right track and keep their marriages strong. And also, if a couple is going off the track, maybe to get them back on and show them how important it is to fight for their marriage. Absolutely. That's a lot of good details in there as how to do it well. And so last time, just want to reiterate what we covered in case somebody didn't see the show last time. We talked about the four hallmarks of a healthy relationship. To be safe at home, to open the doors to intimacy, to do your part and be responsible in the relationship and to nurture security in the future together, in the couple's future together. You know, the book is broken down into four parts. Last time we covered part one, to understand the risk to a healthy relationship. There are some risks that if we see these things happen in a relationship, we know that they're in trouble. And we covered the topic of escalation when conflict escalates. And in a little bit, we're going to kind of recover that again with the speaker listener technique. Yes, exactly. And that is such an important technique. And so then we have escalation. The second one is invalidation when we invalidate each other and our feelings. The third one is negative interpretations when we see things negatively, more negatively than they really are.  We get in that frame of mind. And the last one is withdrawal and avoidance. And when that happens, you know, it's hard to work on saving the marriage because someone's withdrawn and they're avoiding the conflict and they're not wanting to work on it anymore. Correct. So today we're going to focus on part two, you know, teaming up to handle the conflict. Right. And you mentioned something about the speaker listener technique. That's right. The speaker listener technique is just an excellent tool to use. There are rules that we explain to the spouses. The rules for the two of them is that the speaker has the floor.  And they are the only one that gets to speak at that time. But they need to share the floor. And it goes really fast. That person does not get to sit here with the object in their hand for 20 and 30 minutes. It should be about 20 and 30 seconds. And they will share the floor with the next person. And also during this time, they do not do any problem solving. They only are discussing the issue. Now we'll have the rules for the speaker. And the rule for the speaker is that we speak for ourselves. We don't try to interpret what the other person meant when they were talking. Because we're really not mind-readers, which sometimes is kind of shocking to us, but we're not. Do we find that as couples are married longer, sometimes they say they read each other's minds. You know, my husband and I have been married 30 years. Sometimes you can finish their sentences. So when that happens, you tend to relate that to all aspects of the relationship. And honestly think that sometimes you can read each other's mind, but we know that's definitely not true. That's true. That's very true. And how does that get a couple into trouble in the speaker-listener technique when we're reading each other's minds? When we anticipate what they are thinking, and it's not what they were thinking. Even though we've been married 34 years, there is times that we think we know what they meant, but we need to just listen to what they have to say and take it from there and not interpret what we think they meant. And that's where we get into the next part, but finish up the rules for the speaker. Speak for yourself and use I statements. I feel. I think. And then we only say it once. We don't say the same thing over and over again. That's why we need to keep passing that object back and forth to be able to share the floor. And then it will be the listener's turn to speak once the object is handed over to them. And they need to paraphrase what they heard. That way, it's clear between both spouses as to what this one said and when it's paraphrased, they'll say, yes, that's correct, or no, that's not really what I meant. You didn't hear what I was trying to say. And don't don't rebuke what you heard. Don't try to make up reasons why, you know, or whatever. Just rephrase what they what they said. I think that was an important lesson that you just said. Instead of trying to rebuke what the person is saying. We're just making sure that we understand it correctly. This is not the time to be defensive or to try to explain why you feel like you do or to prove that you're right or the other person's wrong, but merely to really understand where the other person is coming from in the paraphrasing. And this means we don't have to agree with them. So we can hear what they have to say and not agree with them. This is just discussion time. I would give an example. You probably have examples too because you've worked with lots of couples. We had one couple and they were doing the speaker listener technique. And it was a husband's turn to speak, to say something that he wished for. And he said, I wish that you would help me with the finances, you know, they're looking at each other. He said that to his wife. And she, instead of paraphrasing what he said, said, oh, I know what that means. You want me to get a job. We've been down here before and I'm not going to do it. You know, when they started arguing, I said, hold on, we're just supposed to be paraphrasing what he said. This is not the time, as you said, to rebuke or to argue the point. So can you paraphrase what he said? And then she said, what did you say? She didn't really hear him because she was already being defensive because she knew where she thought it was going. So I said, we'll ask him to say it again. She said, well, can you say that again? He said, I want you to help me with the finances. She said, what does that mean? I said, exactly. If the speaker is too vague when they make their statement, the other person doesn't know what they mean, and that opens up to misinterpretation. Correct. So they have to fill in the blank. So we need to be very specific when we talk about our needs, wishes, and desires with our spouse instead of being too vague. And if we are vague, our spouse needs to ask us a question, well, what does that mean? Right. And when she asked the question, he said, I would like you to sit down, go over the finances with me. Look at where we're spending money, where the income's coming in, and how we can balance this. And she said, oh, that's all you want me to do is look at the checkbook and see where the expenses and income is coming and how we can cut together. And he said, yeah. And she said, I can do that. So that was an example of some mind reading and not really hearing, not really listening, hearing but not listening, and how this technique can work if we do it right. Do you have any examples of couples that you've used it with? Right. The same thing, too, has happened with us when we have mentored. The person will start to paraphrase it back and say, and you said this because, and I'm like, no, no, no, you can't iterate that right now. You just need to paraphrase what they had to say. And the speaker listener technique actually will feel very awkward at first, not natural at all. So we highly recommend the couples to practice. Do it on something that's not a sensitive issue. Watch a movie together, or if you've gone out to sightsee or to some kind of game, and then sit down and say, let's talk about it, and use an object, hold it, and discuss it, and let it become natural that way. And it will take time. It's not going to be just like, oh, I can get this. It's easy. It's not easy. But marriage is work. And that's why this is a very important area to work at. So when you practice, like with a TV show or a movie, and use a speaker listener technique, then it will become easier when you do have the sensitive issues, the hot topics, that you really need to sit down and discuss using the speaker listener technique. Right. And then where do we take it from there? So they get the speaker listener technique down, you know? Maybe we're actually really listening to each other and understanding the true desires, needs, and wants of each other. Then what happens? You learn how to communicate and actually understand what each other's viewpoint is. That just makes the whole relationship closer and understanding one another where you feel secure with one another. And we see this work with couples because sometimes their relationship is so full of negative interpretations, you know, and misconceptions about what the other person is trying to say, that just by understanding what they really meant, they see that they weren't trying to attack them. Right.  That's the great time to use the speaker listener technique. And it will not damage your relationship because you're doing it in a controlled manner and not allowing it to get out of control. Exactly. So, you know, part three talks a little bit about enjoying each other and how important it is for a husband and wife to have a friendship because when we're newly married, we have that type of friendship and sometimes that really grows strong. And with other marriages, you know, child rearing, paying the mortgage, jobs, everything gets in the way. And we kind of lose that friendship. How do we get that friendship back and how do we make sure that we can enjoy each other? Put yourself on the calendar is number one and make time for one another. Sometimes we are just so busy that we're the last ones to think of ourselves.   It's not a time to discuss issues. We'll get to that in a little bit. But it's just a goal and enjoy one another. And if something happens to creep in, you need to allow yourself to say, no, I'm not going to go there. This is our fun time. Let's just enjoy one another. And we find that some couples find that really hard to do. You know, they have not gone out and enjoyed each other's company in a while. So when they do go out and it's been a long time, they don't know what to say to each other if it's not about the kids or money. And that, like you said, it creeps in and they may have an argument and it may become not pleasant to spend time alone, so we stop doing it. So what are maybe ways we can make sure that we get back on track and learn how to have fun again and not allow those negative times to creep in? Because if they do and I say to you, hey, stop it, you're letting that creep in, then you're going to get defensive and it's going to become an argument. Yeah, I just say, sweetie, this is fun time. That's not no discussion time. There are actually books out there. One couple that we mentored actually, she wrote a little book and just to bring back memories and things that you can discuss, like what was your favorite Christmas and what's your favorite foods to cook or eat and just ask each other questions because, I mean, after 30 years and 34 years of marriage, we're still learning about one another. There's still more to learn about each other no matter how long we've been married. I'm glad that you brought that up because we do have books in our library at the office that can help couples. You've gone through the 10 great dates. You're very familiar with that and you've recommended it for a couple, if I believe. You know, that is a great book. It facilitates conversation and communication on a date night. 10 great dates. We also have books that are, I think it's like 52 questions or other ones, 101 questions to ask each other. So you have these set questions and it seems weird at first that you're married 30 years or whatever and you have to have them in place. But it really does get the conversation, like you said, going off in a new direction that doesn't bring in the negative things and we do learn to have fun. Or if we do something like going bike riding or bowling or a walk on the beach, something that's physical that we are involved with. Right. And get involved in each other's what the other person likes. My husband likes antiquing and garage selling. I like garage selling also, but he likes it even more than I do, you know.   And so he stopped what he was doing and came and sat with me. So give of yourself. Exactly. Because sometimes we find that somebody says, I've actually had a couple of days, I don't like doing it, I'm not going to do it. But then if the other person doesn't like anything you're doing, where you've got to find some common ground. So sometimes we have to do what the other person likes and then they, you know, do give back to us. Yeah. That's called sacrifice. Yeah. And that's what marriage is about, is sacrificing for one another. And I think sometimes we forget that because in our culture can be sometimes me centered. You know, it's all about me, what I like. If I'm happy, if I'm, if I feel in love and we tell couples they'll say, come in and say, I'm not in love anymore. We see the stage or seven stages of marriage. That's about right. So how do you get that back? Right. You know, let's work on that. Right. You know, part four in the book talks about staying the course. You know, you can't always get what you want, which is kind of what we're talking about. Sometimes you have to give. And a lot of this goes into expectations and unrealistic expectations. We find you've done pre-marriage couples. They have many unrealistic expectations. Right. So what kind of things do you find that they will have unrealistic expectations? It's very difficult for them to meet as a couple and for their partner to meet. I think one that is, it's the little things, you know, that always drives us crazy. I like the example of where the one spouse expected the other spouse to make their orange juice. And it just drove that other person crazy. But then when they actually talked about it using the speaker listener technique, they found out that the one that wanted it to be done, to them it was an act of love. Because that's what her father had always done for her mother. And it was an act of love between them and that's the way she saw it. And so she wanted it to be done in their marriage also. It's the little things. It's like, who's going to clean out the lint dryer, you know, on the dryer? Who's going to take care of the checkbook in the housework? It needs to be talked about. But the other thing that's very, very important is, like you said, are our expectations reasonable or unreasonable? Example, yesterday we had a busy weekend doing, not playing, okay? So I'm like, okay, Monday we're going to go in and enjoy the day. Well, things got turned around because of what's happening today and tomorrow. And so it had to be done yesterday. And so I just took my expectations and say, that's life. That's the way it is. And so I just enjoyed the day, even though it was totally different than what I had hoped it to be. Because that's just the way life is. It always sends us a curve ball and I needed to let go of my expectations of not just enjoying the day with my husband and watching him do other stuff. Great, you brought in a number of great topics. You brought in, that was a way she felt love, which goes back to the five love languages. There are different ways we express love and we receive love. You talked about making sure we make time for each other. That comes to the fulfilled couple's calendar. Making sure that our relationship is as important as our job and all of the activities that we're involved in. Making sure our spouse is number one. And then the last one was the expectations. How a pre-marriage couple may have unrealistic expectations like we're in love and because you're my soulmate, we'll never fight and we'll be in love forever. And those of us who are married know that's not going to happen. There will be tough times. But what about a couple who's been married 30 years? You talked about an expectation that could be unmet even after 30 years because you think that, well, we have more realistic expectations. And so you talked about being flexible. And that goes to the couple's map. Our flexibility level and our closeness level. How flexible can we be with our expectations? And not too flexible, but we have to have some boundaries. But we do need to be a little flexible when things are not happening. So what do we do if our expectations are not being met? We need to ask ourselves, are they realistic? And then talk with our spouse about what our expectations are and go back, use the speaker listener technique to do that. So it's done in a healthy manner in a safe environment. But just say, this is, because actually I said to my husband, this is what I expect Monday to look like. And he said, that's fine. But then when other things came up, he's like, this is what I have to do instead. And I'm like, OK. So being flexible, but then talking about it also. Exactly. I think the talking about what our expectations are is, you phrased it so important, because sometimes couples hold their spouse responsible for meeting their expectations. But they've never voiced the expectation to their spouse. Right. We're not mind readers at all. Exactly. So the person doesn't even know what you're expecting, but you're holding them accountable for meeting them. And when they don't, you're hurt, which leads into pain and hurt, built up resentment over how many years. That leads to forgiveness. Book also has a great chapter on forgiveness. Can you talk about forgiveness? We all have to be able to forgive. We live in an imperfect world. We're imperfect people. And we do end up hurting one another, even though we may not mean to. And hopefully, most of the time, it's because we don't mean to. Actually, the definition of forgiveness I'm going to read this is decision to give your perceived or actual right to get even with the one who wronged you. It's to cancel a debt. And forgiveness is actually a verb. It's action. It's active. So without having forgiveness, there's going to be a buildup of resentment and anger, hopelessness. And it can lead to depression. How can we work at forgiving someone? Sometimes that's very difficult. Personally, in my case, it was praying for my husband. And just telling God, at this stage in my life, it's really difficult to be in this marriage. But I'm going to pray for him and ask God to bless him and wish good things upon him. And eventually, my love came back. We sometimes have couples make a list of all of the things that they've been wronged with. All of the ways they've been wronged by their spouse. And then we make, on this side of the paper in this column, how they reacted to it. How they reacted to that wrong. Tear the paper after they get that done. They've put the wrongs down. How they've reacted to the wrong. Tear the paper in half. We throw how they've been wronged away. And we look at the reactions. Because that's what you have control over. Don't have control over the other person. So your reaction to that wrong. Those are the things that you can work on. And sometimes when we see that, maybe we didn't react in the best way. Maybe we held them accountable for something that wasn't really their fault. Maybe we assumed something was their fault or a misintention that wasn't really there. Then maybe those are ways we can start seeing that, oh, they didn't really mean to hurt me. We can start forgiving. And we can see ways in which we're not perfect either. And by allowing ourselves to not be perfect, then we're not as quickly to judge the other person. The other thing is to focus on the good. Their positives. That is in their lives. And just dwell on them. And ignore the things that drive us crazy. That's an important point. Because when you have a lot of bitterness and resentment that's built up. You know that negative interpretation we talked about slides in. Everything starts looking negative. How can we turn that negative interpretation around? One of the exercises is by looking at ways to compliment our spouse. I mean, sometimes it's hard. If you're not used to that and you haven't done it for a while to find good things in our spouse. Which is really kind of sad when we think about it. We can do it for other people but it's hard to find good things of our spouse. So to tell them something complimentary. It gets easier. I mean, when you're down in that negative it's really hard to find something good in them. But you start with one thing and you focus on that. You start with, you know, you add more and more. We had one couple. I don't remember there was an example. I said, well, let's just try it in the office. Just can you pay her a compliment? And he said, I like your hair. And she said, oh, my hair. See, that's easy. He doesn't like my hair. I know he doesn't like my hair. And he doesn't really mean it. I said, well, hold on. I said, did you really mean that? He goes, I definitely meant that. I like her hair like that. And she goes, how can you like my hair? I don't like my hair. He says, well, you don't like it but I do like it. I said, he could have said, I like your blouse. I like the way you're sitting. I like the way you laid the paper on the table. It could have been anything of a million things. But he said that. I said, do you think there's a possibility that maybe he really likes the way your hair looks? And she said, I guess so. You know, sometimes we dismiss things even when they're positive because we've been in such a negative state for so long. We dismiss positives and we think there must be an ulterior motive or something negative behind that. You find that with the couples that you and Ellen have mentored? Absolutely. And that's where going through the resources that the Great Marriage has is just wonderful to bring these marriages back and being strong and healthy. Can you talk a little bit about the differences in genders and gender roles? How do as men and women, how does that affect our relationship and the way we see things and the way we can get along? From everything to forgiveness, to compliments, to negative interpretations, everything. Well, there definitely is a difference between the genders. I know for men, when they relate to one another, they can just have a couple words and it's done and over. Women, we will hold grudges a whole lot longer. There's a book called Love and Respect that we have and it shows how we see things so differently between the sexes. Yes, and we get hurt more. Women tend to sometimes get hurt a little. Much more sensitive. Much more sensitive than the men.  They don't tend to do that to each other but as women, we do that to each other. So then when we say to our husband, well, first of all, we expect him to notice that we look nice if we're going out and then he doesn't. So then we say, how do I look? And he says, fine. And she takes that as just fine. Like, oh, he doesn't like what I have on. But to a man, that might be, no, you really look fine, you look good. Where they're just as likely, if you don't, to say, are you really gonna wear that dress or something. If they say, fine, sometimes as women, we have to look at that as, hey, I shouldn't have to be upset because I had to ask him how I looked. But the fact that he said, I look good. You know, in whatever form or word he chose to. I mean, he really meant it. And to maybe not be so hard on each other that way. And when it comes down to it, in all marriage, the main thing is to be committed. We must be committed to one another no matter what. We need to make ourselves a priority. We need to call ourselves a team. That's important. Can you talk with the team? Why team? Because we are a team. And if we're not a team, then we're fighting against one another. And we treat team members differently than we treat enemies. And we need to work together and realize we're on a team rather than opposites and enemies. Exactly. The team effort is so important to remind ourselves we're together, we're together. So well, that's our show for today, folks. We wanna thank you so much for joining us on Healthy Marriage. And we hope that you will join us next time. Go to our website, at great-marriages.org to look for some upcoming events and programs that we're offering. We'll see you next time. Remember, marriage, it does matter. ["Hotel Del Luna"]