Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I am joined by Mr Rob Hart of robhartdrumstudio.com. Rob, welcome to the podcast. Hey, Bart. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. And this is cool because this is like a series we're working on where it's the mentors series where we are listening to recordings that you recorded yourself when you took lessons with some of the best drummers in the world. We did Steve Smith last time. Today we're doing Mike Clark. There's a list of others we've done. You did an episode in the past about Tony Williams where you recorded a clinic and broke that down a little bit as we listened to clips. So you've been recording these drum lessons for a very long time. So I think it's smart what you've done of just of working with all these great different different drummers. I'll link in the description. You can see I guess we'll call it part one of this series was Steve Smith. Lots of cool clips. So that'll be there for people to check out. So Rob, can you explain? He's very active still. Let's talk about Mike Clark. He's on social media. He has been for years ever since I got into this world of you know social media and you know the drum posting drum clips and stuff. Mike Clark is a phenomenal drummer. He I know you mentioned to me that he likes to be referred to as a jazz drummer but man he can play some funk, funk and swing and he has just an all-around incredible style of drumming and he's just an interesting guy in general. So can you give a maybe for people who aren't familiar with him just kind of a quick synopsis of who Mike Clark is and his importance in the drum world? Yeah, so Mike Clark really innovated there was a Bay Area sound going on and David Garibaldi Tower of Power you know same like David Garibaldi innovated this whole you know linear funk thing that was you know legendary. Well Mike was around at that same time so they innovated you know the East Bay funk sound and so his legendary track was what was called actual proof on an album by Herbie Hancock called Thrust and that album is actually so amazing like every groove everything on that album you know is it's so amazing it's like funk but it's improvised jazz at the same time.  So the story was is that he went and excused himself for 20 minutes did some chanting meditation if you will he came back and he only had one one chance to do the take they're like I'll give you one chance that was a bruiser if you don't get it that's it you know we're moving on we're going to do the other style he did it in one take and then he kind of said I'm going to this is going to be something that's going to change the world this is he kind of had this vision that this is this is something that's going to be legendary and so that kind of what happened with that track it's it's this improvised thing that go into all these different like feels and grooves and you know it just it goes all over the place but it's there's a form right and actually the if you've ever played that I know that tune I mean I played it in my trio it's a hard tune it's there's some you know it's it's kind of these rhythms that are stretched out and you know it's got some like two over three and all these different things and my friend would transcribe it as a bar of five four you know it's it's kind of crazy but yeah you know he did that in one take so you know Mike just he he innovated the linear style of funk and I guess you could say he was sampled later on like the most sample drummer along with like the James Brown stuff and all that and he wasn't like a hard hitter or anything like that but he just had like a certain touch and feel and style the other thing that that happened he played in a lot of organ bands so he had a really great swing feel and a really nasty shuffle like his shuffle I've seen him play with organ trios before and the shuffle was just out of this world so you know he he grew up in you know I think a time when you know straight ahead jazz was popular and then he also grew up in a time when R&B and blues and everything was popular sure his dad was a drummer so his dad used to take him around everywhere and so he was like a child prodigy he would sit in with everybody he told me that in Sacramento he grew up in a kind of a poverty stricken neighborhood and and the kids liked him because he would play drums for the kids they come over to his house and he'd play like you know drum grooves and the kids would dance for him so you know he was just a child prodigy legend you know innovative drumming with with with Herbie Hancock and just you know he kept playing all the way and he saw what 76 he's still playing I just saw him play about a month ago up in San Francisco yeah unbelievable yeah he's there's something very special and I didn't really realize the child prodigy part of it which makes perfect sense it seems like there's a freedom to it and like I said before incredible jazz drummer but there's there's a video that's kind of famous that's Mike Clark and Paul Jackson who are playing and it's it's labeled as funk and swing grooves and the full thing is up on YouTube which I don't know who owns the rights to it that's they can figure all that out but I can try to link to the to it in the description you can find it pretty easily it's an hour long but man he can play and that's again his funk side of things also an incredible jazz drummer but so we'll jump into the clips here because I think it's awesome to hear this idea which is you get full credit for of just listening to these clips and breaking it down is so cool but you mentioned that you took a lesson or two with him but then you guys really just became friends beyond that is that correct yeah so I went to my there was a keyboard player and his wife and his name is Jeff Pitson and Suzanne Pitson and they had a an apartment in San Francisco and they were good friends with Mike so they would say hey Mike is going to be teaching at the house at the apartment once you come over and take a lesson so what I did is like I said I tape everything so I taped that lesson and it was the first time I met him and I think they were playing a gig in San Francisco and I hung out with him a little bit you know before that lesson but this recording is from that that very first meeting there are very first lesson I should say okay cool so this is number one here labeled audition is that correct yeah so so what's gonna happen is he he sits down with me and he says okay let's hear you play you know I just want to go through some different styles and and see where you're at I'm not going to judge you or anything like that you know don't don't even worry that I'm here just just you know play a few things and and then I can kind of make an assessment so this is clip number one uh Mike Clark uh last thing what year are we looking at right now is this 92 yeah 1992 and by the way this is me playing this is this is him going okay go you know let me hear you let me see let me see what you got and go and so it's me playing okay Rob Hart playing Mike Clark listening first time hearing him so let's check this out let me hear you play just make yourself comfortable and play anything you feel don't worry about me checking you out and all that stuff okay just you know get down to play by play some jazz things for me for a while and then we'll play some fun you know we'll play some Latin stuff okay just give it right now just play some jazz and we'll try medium tempo okay how did he react what was his response then after you played um I don't quite remember but you know we just went through a few things and and he kind of gives me like a an assessment after yeah um which I think I have on some of the recordings but he says oh yeah you got to work on your phrasing I I think you got the goods but you know you need to work it sounds all jumbled you need to work on making everything you know more articulated or more clear sure which you sounded great but that we've all been in that position where it's like sit down and do it now that audition process is always a little uh you know stressful even though that's it's it's labeled as audition but you're not really you're just kind of letting him hear you it's not like you're at a you know on a stage doing a big audition but I will say just even from hearing him talk and I've heard him on social media and stuff Mike seems like a really cool guy he seems like a very nice nice guy I mean and a great person to take lessons from yeah he's a he's a um amazing human being you know and and he'll sit and talk to you forever and I was saying uh I was telling you off uh off the interview that I was talking to him for an hour yesterday and we'll just go you know um yeah so uh he's he's just one of those you know you go to a gig and show up and he'll just hang and and and uh um you know he's just uh he's got that sense of of you know just feels makes you feel really really really comfortable and you know you know it's just uh you know that that kind of personality that that you know very loving you know and and very supportive yeah um so you were in your friend's apartment hit or his friend your mutual friend's apartment what do you remember what the drum set was I know he's a DW guy what were you playing Gretch oh cool okay and so there's another drummer in San Francisco uh which is his best friend uh Vince Ladianto Vince Ladianto and then um uh they would whenever Mike was in town or something uh he would just give him a kit or you know if he was doing a gig they'd loan him a kit and all that so nice it was a beautiful Gretch Gretch kit and I believed it was like k-zolgens or something I actually I listened to that recording it's like wow this drum sound great yeah they do very clear and cutting and everything and same thing we did with the Steve Smith what was your recording set up for this was this your Walkman yeah the Walkman it's that thing is a tank it is yeah all right anything else we should know about number one here I mean the first clip I think like so you carried on you did the lesson he gave you a little bit of advice um yeah anything else we should know well and he's just playing for him a little bit he's getting a sense he's checking you out you know looking at your technique or whatnot and you know just trying to go through some different styles sure well should we jump in and hear the next one then yeah so the next one is bright swing okay let's play it and then maybe explain a little bit more about it after so here's bright swing that sounded great you sounded a little more warmed up there so Mike is sitting there watching I'm sure he's uh yeah explain the situation with that one um yeah I mean we're he's going through like play uh a medium swing like the first one then play play upswing um play a samba you know um play some funk uh so he's going through like the list yeah and um yeah he's and I remember that I was I was you could hear like that Tony Williams a little bit of that copying in there a little trying to trying to play some of those licks so I guess I was um you know around because I was studying with Tony at that time too so I was around that that time and playing some of that stuff so um so yeah I mean he's just going through different styles and it's just you know let's see what you can do all right that's a cool one so moving forward here so the next one is the role so this is kind of tied into the Tony Williams episode two about the importance of roles yep so he says let me hear your role okay and play me play me a single stroke role play let's let's let's hear your double stroke role you know um let's hear your single stroke role like where you're at you know and his roles are important okay well let's roll this clip nice so you got a little that sounded great so you got a little uh pad on the back from Mike that has to feel good yeah you know I I think the I don't know how you feel or your viewers feel that the double stroke role is actually I think one of the hardest roles second being the single stroke role and then the buzz role I think people kind of get now I've been teaching for like 40 years and I feel like buzz role people kind of understand I mean maybe it's not smooth but they kind of get the function of it right but the double stroke role is one of those either you get it or you don't they don't get the whole um getting the bounce catch technique and all that yeah yeah um so I don't know how you feel about that but I just feel that role being able to play a double stroke role um smoothly is probably the most challenging rudiment as far as the long roll family yeah so he was kind of having me do that and see what I how I could play that but one of the gifts I had when I was a young kid I was able to do that I was able to I got the bouncing concept down yeah yeah yeah which kind of is the feeling in your hands which I feel like that's hard to explain to people when you're teaching a lesson sometimes of like you're teaching a feeling of feeling the bounce and all that stuff and I would agree I feel like double strokes or something that you can just work on endlessly and there once you get them down they're fun to do into practice and it's it's rewarding because it sounds impressive there's something about the double stroke that's just ripping but it's playing it in the middle it's playing it up higher it's playing it soft it's there's so many different variations and uh you know it's nice to hear you said yeah that sounds great or whatever you said that's pretty cool yeah it's it's uh you know being able to play that smoothly uh you know with intensity and and you say like different dynamics there's like so many different ways in the snare drum that you get different sounds you know different tones you know by the rim and then moving out towards the middle and all that so that's kind of what I was doing and I think I went down to a buzz too sure yeah going from double to buzz and then back to the double and then slowing it down and that's what I did with Barry James when I was taking lessons with him was working on that and and you know again you can work on something for your entire life and then sit with a different teacher and then they show you something you might not be doing that's a cool way to practice it or something that's uh that's pretty neat so uh all right so let's we got next Mike Clark funk fusion what's this one so Mike started playing some funk stuff and then he kind of started he went to a thing where he sped it up and um I labeled it funk and then and then when he I was uh giving him the clip so he could check it out you know to give me the okay he goes man that's not funk that's like fusion stuff and I want to remind people that Mike did play with brand X you know um he's on I think he's on a product album and um he told me that was like the hardest gig he ever did because it's you know it's it's it's all crazy fusion stuff uh which he sounds great on by the way um so I think that track is kind of geared towards you know a little bit of the fusion aspect so it's a little bit faster it's kind of the you know up tempo funk fusion yeah well we'll play it but I mean he was born in I think 46 so when he's coming up and in like you know 70s or kind of his heyday of like a lot of these huge bands that was a really weird time of funk becoming fusion and jazz was changing so he has a he was definitely at the right place at a very interesting time uh which I think translates to a lot of these interesting you know styles and his his ability to play so many different things um so all right here we go Mike Clark uh funk fusion you be the judge here let's listen to it here we go that was awesome what was your thoughts so you guys you guys then switched and he sat down yeah so he was playing at that point and um you could hear him playing at you know fast tempo then he slowed it down um and that's definitely like a linear pattern and then for the listeners a linear just means you don't hit anything at the same time you're not hitting any two limbs together so everything's everything's separated and then plus that open hi-hat stuff you know getting that real clean and um that's a voice so um he was demonstrating that and I want to say too when I talked to him um yesterday he was mentioning that uh when he developed the funk stuff it was he said that he was playing Mercy Mercy Mercy by Joe Zalinal like that that tune and he said that's when he started kind of developing the style right and and he started experimenting and and uh and then kind of like all this stuff came out and I think Paul Jackson too you know he was a very unique bass player yeah I don't think he gets enough credit but he but the two of them two of them together is oh yeah and and they were like you know they were they were tight you know just just his friends yeah this episode is brought to you by luge guitars luge is reimagining kids guitars I have had this acoustic guitar in my house for probably two years now and this thing is awesome I love playing it uh for those of you listening and not watching on youtube it is a really really cool red awesome looking guitar very high quality this thing I don't recommend this but it has been thrown around stepped on dropped and it's it stays in tune through all that little own doesn't break or anything like that very high quality recently we got um a electric guitar which I believe is the pro electric guitar from luge luge is great about having different apps that you can use there's little flash cards that have fun little monsters on them that keep kids engaged everything about luge is very high quality and fun for kids to learn guitar um obviously this is a drum podcast so you think we want our kids to be drummers but sometimes they want to be guitarists but it's also fun to just build out your band room with kids instruments so you can jam with your kids I know my son likes to play the guitar and he'll just jump around and play one of the guitars and just scream and sing while I'm playing the drums and it is a ton of fun it's like something we do every night here in my house so check out luge guitars dot com slash drum history podcast to see everything on the luge website luge guitars dot com slash drum history podcast and uh you guys are gonna love these if you get them for your kids so thanks to luge for sponsoring the podcast all right so we got mike on the kit and then next up we have got to hear you with a band you want to describe this one a little bit yeah so what's happening is is you're we're taking a drum lesson and he's you know we've gone through the audition process you know there was like a we did some lat things and whatnot um and then he goes you know it's okay to hear you in the um practice room or in the studio or in the you know um just just playing the drum set was for somebody but he goes you know what like I haven't heard you with a band like I can't judge you until I actually hear you with a band and um and so I'm like yeah that makes sense because when I grew up I played to records and and so I would put the needle back and try to learn that section and I thought it was like I thought I could play right I thought it was like I learned all this stuff from the record and then when I started playing with people like you know acoustically like I found out differently like I couldn't play at all like I I had no skills at all like it's like night and day so different thing when you're playing when you when you're on the gig and um and and and somebody's hearing you play in the ensemble situation that's really where you can get you know a judgment of like how you play yeah right now guys you know can play like they can support the band by not playing anything some guys know how to excite the band as buddy Rich would say um lift all the other band members up um some guys know you know how to interact with the band and jazz like you know how to do a conversation um some guys listen some guys don't you know so there are all these things that tie into hearing you play you know in an ensemble or with a band yeah totally okay let's hear this and we'll talk about it more here you go gotta hear you with the band I can't tell because I haven't heard you with a band I'm just hearing you by yourself but you know some strange drum set so you know I can dig all that but but um but like let me show you some stuff okay easy stuff it's not not technical I'm just talking about when I play the time one is I swing real with just good solid beat the guy showed me this and then he told me to take this motion away um and that was like to make a circular motion with a stick when you're not on the gig so you want to beat to lift up the dance and move forward I think it's cool too that he knows what he started off by saying is like I'm just hearing you on some random drum set meaning that you've never played on this you're not really that comfortable on it again he understands that because it's like if you sit on someone's set and then like it's just like I've even had that at like you know you go to a family party and there's a drum set that's some kid is set up that's just like uh and then you kind of sit on it and it's I'm speaking of a very specific example but it was like all right I'm gonna play and there's a group of people watching me it's like this isn't what I sound like I'm on a random drum set playing by myself but he he gets that which you obviously played phenomenally but um yeah he understands that it's a whole different beast when you're playing with a band on your own drums and you're grooving and it's uh you're in your element that's that's a different story yeah um I think it's that and and you know being being in the situation where you're playing for somebody that you're you're meeting for the first time like in an intimate setting and yeah you know all those those kind of things like doing a I guess a job interview in a way sure you know and you're nervous do I say the right things do I play the right things yeah so um so he's saying that the other thing he's saying is that you know hey I know that we're here in this room and this is happening but um I haven't heard you with the band but I'm sure that when you're playing with the band it's going to be you know different right and then see if you're you know how you play and how you uh you know how you react in an ensemble situation yeah I mean there's drummers who are great solo clinician drummers um who maybe don't excel playing in a band because they kind of are overdoing it or everything's about them versus someone who plays great in a band like Charlie Watts you probably wouldn't he wouldn't sit down and play drum solos and do clinics by himself but he's perfect for the stones kind of thing you know it's it's it's two different mindsets um and I I've always I've kind of thought about it too of like there's like and this is might be a stretch but there's like stand-up comedians who are funny by themselves on a stage and then there's an actor who's funny when they're with a group of people and they would they play off each other you know what I mean it's kind of like drummer by himself versus drummer in a band yeah and some of those drummers uh that are legendary like Ringo and Charlie and you know they just play the right stuff and and it's again in the ensemble situation um I remember seeing Alan White it was an Alan White clinic at Guitar Center in in in San Francisco or or El Cerrito it was horrible really it was horrible but it's he doesn't do that that's not his thing he doesn't play by himself he doesn't do solos or play with tracks that's not what he does but man and I've seen him with with yes incredible you know incredible yeah amazing like you know that gigg down right so that's a great example yeah and I want to say too you know we're in an age where I think everybody's doing Instagram videos and all that um I kind of see a lot of the same thing where there's there's like I don't know if you call it drum and bass or you know like like uh gospel chops sometimes we call it gospel chops um and then like what's it like if you put those people like if they're actually playing in a musical situation like what is that going to be like so um Mike Johnston I think he talks a little bit about that you know with his lessons and of like oh you know doing these Instagram videos and oh look at all these guys are so much better than me I even watch that stuff I go wow this is incredible but what what if you put those people in a musical situation where they have to play you know um you know certain styles of music in a gig you know people probably turn around and go like take it easy you know like you don't need to do that all the time it's more about leave room for the guitar and bass and singer and keys you know like a Charlie Watts thing or a really what's thing they just know like they grew up playing in bands and they know what to do right yeah yeah and it makes the band sound great you know they they lift the band up like Mike says it lifts the band up because they know exactly what to do so so you're not really paying attention to the drummer so much but you're paying attention to the band you know the vocals you know the groove but the other side of it is when you're sitting down at a kit at a lesson let me hear what you got you you want to show him some chops and stuff like that but but it's interesting because he knows that again he's he's a very I feel like he's a pretty straightforward guy who who understands and is uh I'd say it's it shows some like empathy too of like I get it you know you're great but I understand you'll be in a different situation and you'll be playing with a band and it's it's hard to get that that out so he understands what's going on there which is really cool to hear um so up next we have number six uh when you get to the gig what are we gonna hear here so he's gonna say that all the stuff that he does all his his repertoire he plays at the gig so um there can be things when you practice something but you never use it so a lot of my students uh you know you might go through all this material um and it's really hard and you practice it but you can never use it right it's it's all this this this crazy stuff that uh is fun to practice and whatnot but maybe you it there's no use for it on on a musical setting so what Mike is saying is like I use everything I do on the gig I use everything you know my repertoire I can I can use in in uh my musical situations pretty neat okay let's check this one out because the whole thing is like when you get to the gig that's when it counts you know what I mean yeah the drum room is one thing you know but then the gig doesn't know that's what I'm talking about I don't you get to the gig and you can't do any of that stuff it's on musical I can do all my shit at the gig right I swear but but a lot of times like with with a lot of stuff that you can practice like you said you're a you're a practical it's great in the practice room and you think you're great you get to the gig and there's no proof yeah it's like you can't use it and then it's uh it's musical yeah and what what good is that very interesting I mean how how do you explain and I'm asking you through him to think about it you know what I mean like I how would you do that how would you translate everything he practices he can do with the gig versus what you were just saying about yeah we all get that you practice things that you'd never play live but he's saying I do everything at the gig I can do everything just kind of go through that a little bit how does how do you think he he gets to that point well he so playing all the in all the situations he's done you know and so all his his you know repertoire vocabulary he can he can it's all applyable yeah and so he's not doing things for the sake of you know being able to play fast or you know being able to play some some groove or you know some kind of thing I know I practice things that I never use I forgot right you you go through books and you know it's it's like maybe it's fun or something like that but you just you forget it right away because you never yeah it's like it's like okay that was cool and I you always used to tell my students it's like you know if you're going to practice something got to do it over and over again till you you digest it it's it's got to be part of you that you remember I remember I remember lessons that I took from my teachers it's still in me like I can remember that and I can I can I can play it right so I've actually just did a a tribute lesson for Robbie Gonzalez and I played one of his licks you know from it was like 1983 or something like that and I could remember it and I remember the phrase I had to just work on the independence a little bit but like I can remember all this stuff from doing it over over over and over and repetition and when you do that in what I call digesting it then that becomes party vocabulary instead of doing something once oh and moving on doing it once moving on so a lot of this stuff is like developing your ideas and then using those ideas in a in a musical situation right so you're not forgetting it you're not just doing stuff that you you forget and it was good one day but you give up and the other thing about I call it like the daily routine is that when you start to do an idea or a you know a practice a practice subject you have to keep developing that subject over time right a little bit every day even if it's like 10 minutes you're developing that subject and and that idea and then the idea starts to get like you start to develop I don't know if you have that thing where like first day it's horrible oh yeah like you're so fresh like I'll never get this second day it's a little better yeah you know third day starts to come together and then you know by the end maybe it's a month later it's like oh wow I wonder why I thought this was hard all right so next we have throwing fives is this you or Mike playing on this one here okay so this one is Mike and I actually rename that bebop phrasing so Mike is playing some bebop stuff and it's it's amazing so this is kind of Mike and his element you know going for his thing and I want to say that when when Mike would come over then came to my parents house by the way and there was a bass player who was actually the first bass player that played my trio John Watala and John was playing with Mike at this place called pearls in San Francisco and North Beach and so John would bring Mike over and we're all we're all Buddhists you know so uh Mike would uh we would chant in my bedroom for three hours that was earth and and you feel really good after you bring your you know you get like a high off of it you know so you feel really good and and then uh Mike would go into I had my brother's bedroom was my studio at the time so I built a little studio my brother's bedroom and I had two kids and he would just be like a kid you go check out this Philly Joe like check out this boom boom and then there's this like boom boom boom oh yeah and this is the art Blakey like boom boom boom and he just starts showing just just playing all this stuff so you kind of hear like a glimpse of this and this bebop phrasing of of like all that history you know and it's just so amazing I mean just like you talked about with the with the development like a Philly Joe thing like like hearing his rudiments and yeah I mean they were how amazing and and and you know the articulation and you know the phrasing and all that so that's what this this clip is about okay cool let's check it out we talked about how uh Tony Williams and and various other drummers are like masters of like you know they could mimic and pull out other drummer styles similar to what you just said is that Mike like you like is he very very good at just like like this is this is how this drummer plays this is how this drummer plays is that kind of one of his specialties I don't think so but he he has his influences and then he kind of throws some of the stuff in he kind of incorporates it but in fact you know we were talking about this yesterday um so some drummers want to sound like their um you know mentors right or where they got their their you know influences from and sometimes they just play that way right like they just like okay the you know they're they're influenced by this drummer and you could tell like they just play exactly like that drummer or they play this style and this drummer and they play exactly like that drummer um we talked about like how uh when you're playing you know the instrument in a in a kind of a higher level you start to develop your own characteristic style you know so I think in a way he was influenced by you know everybody happening at the time you know with uh you know the the magnificent seven right um of the bebop era but at the same time he he was you know developed his own thing and yeah so well can you explain the magnificent seven what while you're saying that what is what what are you referring to there that magnificent seven is the Lenny white uh masters of the day and I'm gonna have to pull it up if you don't mind okay I'll pull it up sure it off to you yeah yeah yeah sure so Lenny white um who's another one that I think doesn't get a lot of recognition um yeah incredible best friends you know they're like tight and they talk to each other every day and uh by the way Lenny white got a lot of people gigs you know he got Steve Smith the gig with uh steps ahead you know he uh he he he gets people like hanging out like you get gigs just from being around in the drummer circle but Lenny white was you know he is a master right who could play bebop he could play fusion he can play funk he could play rock you know um he he's one of those guys that can really do it all he's like the the master the you know founding father so magnificent seven uh one Max Roach two uh Roy Haynes three Elvin Jones four Kenny Clark five Philly Joe Jones six Tony Williams seven Art Blakey man I didn't know if it I mean it makes the list is exact is correct I didn't know it was referred to as that and it makes perfect sense I didn't want to just blow past it and go oh yeah magnificent seven I'm glad it's a good category for it that's that's the the godfathers of of of this kind of stuff yeah it's a good way to put it yeah yeah unbelievable um all right so we're up to our last clip um let's see it's I have it labeled as I think we have some different labels but what other styles do you play so is this just him kind of questioning like let's hear some other stuff that you do actually I'm questioning him oh wow okay so I go okay so so what other things do you do and then he started playing kind of a another what we call biome uh Brazilian groove yeah so he started playing some of that but it was me saying what other styles do you play yeah that's cool good question sometimes it's good to question the master you know so all right let's check this out and then we'll we'll close it out after that and kind of finish up and hear more about Rob Hart and his drums studio and everything like that so um here we go number eight so what do you think about like what other styles do you play well what do you mean so you we've covered like some of the jazz phrasing up stuff yeah and and the uh the some of the funk in the bio yeah and and the song but then what other songs do you play well let's say something kind of something yeah I could do something one not bad something pretty good he he answered your question very clearly that uh I think I feel like he could play he could play anything you know yeah yeah how'd you feel after hearing that yeah so that was like a wall one co-thing um you know it's beautiful groove beautiful yeah you know that that groove is actually really hard to play I think it comes from the the cungas you know that kind of thing and then trying to play that on the kit um yeah it was beautiful you know so um from this point out you know um we just started hanging out like I said you know uh he would come over to the house and I would go to Pearl so that that club I talked about uh and he would just have me sit in like he would he would just call he would just call your name and you'd go sit in which is that's like the test you know yeah go up and play yeah it was all the like San Francisco cats uh my friend was playing bass most of the time John um I remember one time in the girlfriend that I was going out with at the time we were at Peter Erskine playing Peter Erskine was playing with uh Elaine Elias the Brazilian piano player and uh it was at a club in the East Bay called Kimball's East and and I wanted to hear Erskine play you know I just wanted to that that stuff was beautiful right I think it was Mark Johnson on bass and I just wanted to stay for the you know the whole night and my girlfriend's like no we're gonna go we're gonna go to hear Mike we're gonna go we're gonna go to the we're gonna go to Pearls and I was like not really wanting to do that and then we went down to Pearls like we drove across the the Bay Bridge was going from the East Bay to the to San Francisco and uh and then we went down there she was like oh you're gonna sit in I'm like oh I don't really want to sit in right now it's like oh no you're gonna sit in and then uh it was something where I counted the two like it was some weird count-off thing that was like got real funny right got weird right yeah I got I got pissed and then I started just like when you're in that weird kind of thing of not being nervous now you're kind of angry because you just made a mistake yep and then I started playing some stuff like something happened like it changed my playing like I I was kind of a little bit uh more aggressive I guess you'd say sure and then Mike oh man I like what did you do there man oh I liked that when you're playing you know it worked out that he liked it he was saying like I know what like you counted the tune like he was trying to like tell me what happened with like like the the little train wreck at the beginning but uh you know it was funny I was like man like you were thrown down like I was it's worth you're thrown down you know that's awesome so a lot of that stuff like you know he he would actually just just have you sit in it would it would be a lot of the you know um how would I put that like different than going seeing a show where you're actually seeing your the the you know your mentor play it was like yeah it was kind of a little bit looser like well hey you're gonna sit in you want to sit in or sure is it okay if Rob sits in you know that kind of thing and yeah I think that was a really you know nice thing to do for students I know I've done it a few times for my students but I think that's something that you really you know it's such a great thing to have you know an opportunity to have happened to you right yeah and then and then play in a situation you know where you're nervous and yeah and all that I don't know if you've ever done that but you know it could be I've had a few yeah a few experiences like that where you're sitting in on something and it's like there's like people who aren't associated with you guys here who are paying customers who are or who are here to like have a drink and relax not to see like someone you know kind of flub around on the drums so there's the pressure of like this is real this isn't like a practice experience so I'm sure you felt better after being done with it and we're glad that you did it and got that experience and you know it's a shame you didn't get to see the rest of Peter Erskine playing though you know yeah I mean I got to say that I saw him over in Berkeley with the his trio and the bass player was at carpenter what's his first name anyway the bass player he just passed away right like after that performance like shortly after that and man that was so musical oh it was uh uh Alan Pasqua who actually played on the Tony Williams believe it out and uh straight ahead stuff just beautiful and Erskine just like great touch you know tasty you know didn't didn't didn't overplay you could play very simply but just you know uh wow that was amazing you know just seeing that stuff so he's he's I think another uh even though I didn't get to study with my student did but I think he's another like master that grew up in the same way he was playing drums when he was five years old you know doing the Stan Ketten stuff um taking lessons with Gene Krupa like all this stuff happened you know when they're in there and like they're you know at what he called five years old six years old yeah you know like like all these opportunities yeah you know that shaped a life you know yeah monster player he Peter Erskine it'd be cool to do a biography episode on him or something just or an interview with Peter uh on the podcast but uh who knows maybe down the road but um well Rob this is just awesome again to have a glimpse into this this time in your experience with Mike Clark so um we'll keep talking a little bit here but just thanks for putting this all together and I guess thank you for you know to Mike Clark if he's watching or listening to this for letting you share these examples because you were did you did the right thing and got kind of clearance for everything so I'm glad he he shared it with us um but as we close things out here why don't you kind of tell people about your drum studio where they can find you taking lessons with you you're very close to getting uh 500 subscribers on YouTube so we're going to try and push that so if you're listening to this go to the link in the description to Rob's YouTube channel subscribe but um so tell them where they can find you and maybe take lessons with you yeah so we just did um a whole new lesson series on a new platform so um we have online lesson courses available on um all these different subjects I've spent hours and hours and hours compiling you know my my online lessons um and that's on robheartdrumstudio.com and then um people can also take uh zoom lessons from me so I'm offering that as well and if they're in the area they can stop by my studio and take private lessons with me cool cool and as we discussed in the previous one when you're taking lessons with Rob you're getting kind of he has all this knowledge from these great drummers um that gets you know filtered down through Rob and you get his experiences and then you learn everything uh from from Rob so again everyone uh you can check out robheartdrumstudio.com h-a-r-t uh check out his YouTube channel I'll put the link in the description for this and let's get him over that uh 500 subscriber mark and um and yeah Rob I appreciate you taking the time to do all this and put these together and come back on the show it's always a pleasure to hear these old recordings this is kind of your special uh category of episodes that we do here so um uh thank you first to Mike Clark for sharing you know letting you do this and share his information and everything and his uh clips of the lessons but yeah Rob I appreciate you being here man and Bart I gotta thank you for just this history thing that you're just you're tearing the you're just tearing everything open I mean I've learned so much and I'm actually just verbatimly just I could just go back and like I I could be the dictionary and go oh yeah well then this is when this happened oh yeah uh the pasty symbol like I can go my friend had pasty symbols oh well here's the history of that because how did you know all that so I just think that um just your podcast I mean the Simmons drums you know that whole thing that was a cool one and and and uh just all this history of of of the instrument you know and the players and everything it's just so incredible and you do such a great job of it I mean thank you your podcast is so professional it sounds so great and now you're doing the the YouTube videos so man it's it's just taken off it's just so awesome so thank you I appreciate that and it's it's good to have it as a like I just I'm working on currently as I'm as we're talking like every night I'm editing the Lars Ulrich series of gear and I've had a couple people say that man I wish this existed 20 years ago and I think it's neat to find people like in that example Chris Roussillo who's doing it or like you who's sharing this knowledge where uh it's all in one place and I think that's the best thing is I can you know find all you guys who are doing this stuff and share it so people have the access to the knowledge because I enjoy that I enjoy bugging my wife or friends or whoever with random facts about things and history lessons and uh I'm glad I appreciate that a lot coming from you that means a lot so uh thank you Rob I appreciate it man thank you


Gun Smoke, brought to you by L&M, the modern cigarette that lets you get full exciting flavor through the modern miracle of the pure white miracle tip. Live modern, smoke L&M. Around Dodge City and in the territory on west, there's just one way to handle the killers and the spoilers, and that's with a U.S. Marshal and the smell of Gun Smoke. Gun Smoke, starring William Conrad, the story of the violence that moved west with young America, and the story of a man who moved with it. I'm that man, Matt Dillon, United States Marshal, the first man they look for and the last they want to meet. It's a chancey job, and it makes a man watchful, and a little lonely. Play that, go down, double six, I know you got it. Okay, Doc, that's how you want it. There it is. I know it. Fine way for a couple of grown-up men to spend their time playing dumb. Well, it's better than fighting that storm outside anyway. Maybe you're right at that. I wouldn't go out that way with a man if a plague were raging. Sure play, Doc. Or a dozen babies were about to be born. Sure play, Doc. Quit stalling, will you? Come on, lay one down. Don't rush me, don't rush me, man. He's got to think in this game, you know. Not if he can count to twelve, he doesn't. You're his president, he is, man. Yeah, still hasn't hit his peak. Oh, how's Kitty getting along, Doc? Well, her throat's pretty sore, but just a touch of the grip. I told her to stay in bed for another day or so. Come on, play. Will you, Doc? It's your play. It's your play, Doc. Doc. I don't know, I... That's the problem. I never do have any luck playing in my own office. I thought you said this game was a matter of thinking. That's about it, young man. Oh, Chester, close the door. I found the door. I told you, of course, it's Doc. I didn't think you'd step a foot outside that jail for the next two days. What's the matter? The journey got away. Got away? You mean Clay Macklin? Yes, sir. Well, what happened? Well, sir, I was thinking some coffee, and he yelled out for me to sell and asked could he have some. And when I took it to him...  Yes, sir. He jumped me. That's all. I wouldn't have been so careless with nobody else, but he ain't never tried to get away before. He jumped you, though. I don't know why I tried it this time. You've got no case against him. Clay Macklin's been wrestling cattle for the last two years, Doc. But you can't prove it, and you know it. Judge Bent will turn him loose the minute he's brought the truck. That may be, but he's gonna stand trial anyway. Well, what are you planning to do? Go after him, of course. It'll have to be in this weather, Doc. I don't know any way of changing it. All right, time to have some. Well, I'm pretty near there, Mr. Dillon. I'd have been locking that dog on his cell, too, yet if Ben Elder hadn't seen Macklin riding out of town, he'd finally got curious enough to come over to the jail. Well, that took him long enough. That's because he figured Macklin had been turned loose. Whoa. Everybody in town knows who will be sooner or later. Well, it may be. Marshall. Marshall, tell him. You sound like Old Judge Bent. Yeah. Over here, Judge. Well, why don't you turn that blame landing up so a man can see his way around? And I guess I've been saddling horses long enough not to need much life. Even, Judge. Oh, just a... Hey, Matt, what's this duck tells me about you heading out on a wild goose chase? I'm gonna bring Clay Macklin back, and so. But why? When a prisoner escapes, I go after him, Judge. But what good would it do to go riding off blind in the woods? But what good would it do to go riding off blind into a storm like this and probably lose your life with nothing? That's not that bad. Macklin was seen riding out of town southwest. The only thing it reached down that way is the Chick-For cattle company. They got two line cabins toward the summer on, and Macklin used to work for the Chick-For. All right. And suppose you do find him, hold up in one of those cabins. Suppose you are able to bring him back. You know I'm just gonna have to turn him loose, don't you? Well, that's your job, not mine, Judge. Now, Matt, for the love of God. Look, I've had Macklin in jail for two weeks waiting trial, and every day I've had to listen to him brag how he'd get off scot-free, hear him snare at the law, and make a big joke out of it. All right, Matt. The night he's out to prove he doesn't even have to wait for the law to decide on his case. I don't like that, Judge. I happen to be a lawman. All right, Chester, if you're settled up, let's start riding. Free yourself of old-fashioned ideas. Why don't you live modern? Free up, freshen up your taste. Smoke and L&M! Live modern. Smoke modern. Smoke L&M. Enjoy full, exciting flavor through L&M's pure white miracle tip. L&M draws easy. Taste richer. Smokes cleaner. That's why today more people are changing to L&M than to any other cigarette. So, free up, freshen up your taste. Live modern. Change to L&M. Make today your big red-letter day and start to live the modern way. Live, live, live modern. Smoke and L&M. It's America's fastest growing cigarette. You better keep moving. Yeah, but he might not be the first one. The more reason you'll be at this one. No place else to show that. I'll clear it for a second. I thought I saw it. All right, sure. Move the boat, sure.  It'll be dawn in another half hour. Come on. You know what happened? Yeah, we got a lot colder before we got warmer. Only we haven't missed it.  No. I think you'll figure about the way Darkin' Judge Benton only a couple of crazy men would come after him in a storm like this. You know, I kindly agree with him, Mr. Dillon. You still came along, though, didn't you? Yeah, but I ain't sure why. The horse is here and go up on the foot. All right, sure. The horse's standing on the lane, too, there. All right, good one, Mr. Dillon. Yeah, he's got one. All right, I'll hit the door and go in fast and you'll follow me in, huh? Yes, sir. Well, you sure did catch me asleep. That's a bad picture.  Maybe. I was the weather off. Always look kind of red-nosed. Been drinking, have you? Wow.  I didn't figure you'd go to this much trouble just for nothing, Marshall. I didn't think you would. Hey, there's the makings for coffee over there, Mr. Dillon, will it fix this time? Yeah, sure, go ahead. Now, you be careful, Chester. That's what got you into trouble last night, making coffee.  And one thing sure you ain't gonna get in on this time. I drunk a pot before I went to sleep. I kind of had it on you boys. I got in ahead of the worst of the storm. Chester. I'll be a slab of bacon around somewhere. Maybe some flour.  Yeah, well, there's flour here, all right. Bacon's probably one of them cans. They're spitting their rustling money. Don't push a luck, Macklin. Oh, well, now, you're one of them high-minded lawmen. You wouldn't mistreat a helpless prisoner. I'd regret it afterwards if that's what you mean. My gutter, I bet you would, then. I found the bacon, Mr. Young. Huh? Well, don't cook all of it. Well, maybe half. There's three of us got it off that till the storm blows itself out. Maybe a week. Well, then they luck, Macklin. We'll be back in dodge before midnight tonight. What are you talking about? I couldn't stand your company for a week. We're headin' out as soon as we eat. In this weather? Well, that's the craziest fool thing I've ever...  You see yourself of old-fashioned ideas. Why don't you live modern? Free up, freshen up your taste. Smoke an Allen M. Only the modern miracle of the pure white miracle tip can bring all of L&M's full, exciting flavor through to you. And that's the big reason why today more people are changing to L&M than to any other cigarette. Remember, L&M draws easy. Taste richer. Smokes cleaner. So live modern. Change to L&M. Make your day your big red letter day and start to live the modern way. Live, live, live modern. Smoke an L&M. It's America's fastest growing cigarette. A snow trail for a horse. Already on his back with him breakin' trail. We went to the power trailer. Now, easy now. Here's the edge of the ice. Back on the flat, it was a wind cuttin' its pieces in the river bottom where there's a little short of the snow, four-foot deep. Wait a minute, Chester. Let me test that ice. This freeze came out pretty fast and there's still alive water underneath. Pretty solid, Mr. John. Yeah, it'll hold us. Sorry. Hey, Macklin, come back here. How many times have I been telling you to stay close? Well, make on, Marshal. I've crossed as much ice in my time as you have. Now, if we're not out of here in 30 seconds, we won't come out at all. You get pretty hungry in a couple of days, John. I am pretty hungry right now. I never saw that time when you weren't. How are you feeling, Mr. John? Well, I've seen better days. How are you making out, Macklin? I ain't never gonna take another bath as long as I will. Well, you're lucky to be alive, sure. Who ain't? Well, we better get ready to push on. There's only about a half hour out of dodge. You won't be so bad. You know, I just can't figure you, Marshal. Huh? I've known lawmen before. Crooked most of them, but I ain't ever known one like you. That's all right. Take this thing that's coming after me in a storm like this. You didn't have to do that, did you? Depends on how you look at it, I guess. What do you mean? I got a job to do, Macklin. I try to do it right. Besides, I guess I got a kind of respect for the law. Well, what's that got to do with it? Well, I'd say the law is a set of rules that make things run smoother.  And the rules hold for all the lawmen the same as for anybody else. Maybe even more so. What rules you talking about? When a prisoner escapes, it's your job to go after him. Bring him back. That's one of them. Even when they're going to turn me loose? And everybody knows it? That's up to the cork. What's that going to do with me? It just don't make sense. Not to you, maybe. I reckon you'll try to tell me there's some rule about you jumping into that water and dragging me out. A prisoner in custody is not able to look out for himself. It's up to the lawmen to take care of it. I wouldn't have jumped in after you if I'd have cut out and run for it. Yeah, I guess you wouldn't. I'm too sure that's why he's done it, Marshal. Just because of some rules. Now, you figure it your way. Anyway, I'm much obliged for you following me out of there. I sure thought I was done for. Come on, let's get started. I got a jail cell waiting for you. Judge Bans finally made up his mind, Mr. Jones. You don't show much respect for the court, Chester. There he goes, old man. One of them judges that deals in a lot of legal jabber. So I'll just say it out plain. Play Macklin, stand up and face the court. Do this evidence over every witch away, Macklin. And I tried to find some way to give you your justice. Me and every man in this court who knows you've been wrestling cattle. Now, judge, that ain't no way to talk. Well, get up.  But, by golly, there just ain't enough evidence to stick you on it. You wouldn't do no good if I tried because some book judge up in Topeka had voiced me on it just as sure as shooting. Yeah, I'm sorry, Marshal Dillon. I know you went to a heap of trouble. That's all right, Judge. Well, all I can do is throw the case out. This miss? Well, it's a crying shame, that's what it is. Judgement did the only thing he could, just as an outside chance anyway. But everybody in town knows Macklin's guilty. A man's innocent till he's proved guilty in a court of law, just as a Macklin's innocent. And Marshal Dillon? Yeah, what is it, Macklin? Well, the judge let me off, all right? Yeah. But there's something I want to say. You can pick up your stuff at the jail whenever you want. No, no, that ain't it, Marshal. Something... Well, I reckon you wouldn't believe me if I was to tell you. Tell me what?  Well, saving my life the way you're done. The rules, all that. I don't know for sure, but, well, maybe I won't be doing any more rustling, Marshal. Not that I ever did, Marshal. Well, I just want to say thank you. I guess I'll be leaving now. Never. I guess it's Macklin ain't all bad after all.  No, sir.  You are? Uh-huh. Right, with a little sugar in it? Why not? Come on. In a moment our star, William Conrad, America's Protestants, Catholics and Jews, are strengthening the bonds of brotherhood and friendship by helping the needy overseas. Through their houses of worship, these three faiths are sending voluntary relief to virtually every free country in the world. Hundreds of millions of pounds of goods, clothing and medicine will go to victims of war, disaster and famine in many parts of the world. More than 80% of American voluntary relief work for the hungry and needy overseas is conducted through the religious agencies of these three major faith groups. When you share with needy persons overseas through your house of worship, you are promoting the spirit of democracy that unites all peoples for peace and goodwill. You are keeping faith with the finest tradition and heritage of America. CBS Radio urges you to keep faith with those in need overseas by giving as much as you can through your faith. And now, William Conrad. The makers of L&M wish to remind you that you can help Hungarian emergency relief by sending your contribution to the American Red Cross, care for your church or synagogue. Gun smoke. Produced and directed by Norman McDonald, stars William Conrad as Matt Dillon, U.S. Marshall. The story was specially written for gun smoke by Les Crutchfield with editorial supervision by John Meston. The music was composed and conducted by Rex Corey. Sound patterns by Tom Hanley and Bill James. Featured in the cast were John Daener and Ben Wright. Harley Bear is Chester and Howard McNeer is Doc. Join us again next week for another story on gun smoke.