Felly mae'n gweithio'r podcast, rydyn ni'n gweithio'r podcast yma yma i'r ffordd yma yma yma yma yma yma yma eich ffordd ym 1878 FM yn ffordd yma yma yn ym Mhwng Gwynchysbwrt, ond mae'r ffordd yn ffordd yn ffordd. Ffordd ym Mhwng Gwynchysbwrt yn yn ffordd yn ymwng i'ch gweithio'r game Everton ac yn ym 23 o'r 24 o'r llyfr. A yn ym 900 ffordd ym Mhwng Gwynchysbwrt ar y UK, mae'n gweithio'r llyfr i'r bwysig, Cydwch chi wedi cael ei wneud yn gyffredinol y ffordd iawn. Gweithio'n ddweud o'r yrddangos, o'ch cyffredin, offaith, o'r canfodau a'r cwmpedau sy'n ddod i'ch gwaith yn ôl. Rwy'n gwneud y Prifysgol yma sy'n gandlau'r meddwl ar gyfer TNT a'r cyfrifodau ac rwy'n gallu gweithio'r peth yn y Gwyrdd Pwg Gwyrdd Llywodraeth. Felly bod yw'n ymdw i'n gwybod, ar gyfer teimlo yn gwybod. Welkom yn gwybod gyda'r 1878 Fn podcast. Mae'r mhwyl dros yma o'r reis wrth. Ond mae'n meddwl am hyd o'r bushlus. Mae'r Mengellio Ogrwain yw'r neud, dwi gennym i'w'r effaith. Fe wnaeth y bushlus hynny, ond mae'n meddyl i'r Lleiddofnod, mae'n meddwl i'r James Tarkovsky'r podd. Mae'r parwysau, mae'r cofnidig os yw Michael Keen. Mae'n meddwl i'r podd. Mae'n meddwl i'r hynny. David, mae'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r hynny. I'm all right, thank you Barry, and yourself? Away from football, I'm dandy, fine and dandy. I'm of the same opinion, but Pej, you're not feeling very well today, I believe.  No, no, and that's what's disappointing, Dave, is that you try to hit those levels to, you know, and yes, I couldn't go for a run and today, I'll try and go later, but I'm not feeling it. And I just don't want to be, you know, dragged down. You won't be, you've got a couple of days where you're not, and then you're flying, or you're bio rhythms will pick back up tomorrow, you'll be ready.  And, you know, that's something that we all wish will come back very soon. It is, it is the injection of something I think I offer. You do it. People will have variants of that very much. Very much, I am. You'll be on the chrono or whatever else variants are out there, but you're absolutely right. Dave, let's get the depression stuff out of the way very quickly. Villa Park Sunday. It was always going to be a tough game. I'll be honest, I'm normally glass half full, but I was looking thinking we'll do well to get something out of disappoints, whatever. But it was for me, it was more the manner of the defeat rather than the defeat itself when that's an obviously losing Dominic Alvalunan and Alex Oboby as well as just side issues too. What was a very poor display in Birmingham at the weekend? It was just too easy, wasn't it? I mean, I think that's a simple fact, you know, and when you look back on it again as I have done many times and it could have been worse. You know, that score line could have been significantly worse, you know, but for some good fortune and bad missing on there, but it could have easy been six or seven, you know, that's the reality of the situation. But there was too many mistakes. It was too easy for Villa, you know, you have to think that Everton have got to be competing with the likes of Villa. I mean, I know that they always draw parallels between the two clubs, you know, very similar in terms of their history and the amount of times they've met trophies won and, you know, all these different things. And there are parallels. They are very much like us. But as they were saying on match of the day to, you know, these are two sides that are going in very different directions at the moment, you know, and that's the worry about it. And, you know, I didn't think we were going to get done in that fashion, but it was just down to what I mean. There were so many people at it at an off game, but just some awful individual errors and then heads go down and just too easy. And, you know, it just makes me wonder, therefore, where we are now two games in and, you know, it almost feels like we're in a crisis situation and we need to sort this out. It's like, well, what have they been doing for the summer? You know, I mean, that's a that's a question that you have to ask is that you could under this, you understand this kind of. You know, fatigue almost or that kind of situation, whether it be mental or physical and, you know, we need to get this right. We, you know, we need to work on this. It's a second game in, you know, we lost the first game at home, which, which, you know, granted, they created plenty of chances and they got done by it by a soft goal. But the bottom line is they still lost, right? And they were comprehensively beaten at Villa Park on Sunday. So you then ask the question of, of, you know, why? Why are they going back to basics now? What was done by way of preparation or what hasn't been taken on board? What hasn't been listened to? And, and, you know, I find that worrying. I mean, I'm trying to I'm trying to stay positive. And I'm trying to think that, you know, listen, on the. Looking with some kind of optimism, there were chances created at home against Fulham. They didn't, they didn't convert them. They didn't win, but at least there was chances created. You know, was Sunday just a bad day at the office? Was it just because obviously Villa got dumped on the opening day, you know, against Newcastle? Were they particularly good? Were we particularly bad? Were particular individual errors to blame largely? I don't know, and I don't want to press the, you know, emergency button yet. But it's difficult to find positives at this moment in time, you know, and it has to be, it has to be redressed and it has to be sorted out of the weekend because, you know, we bottom of the league, you know, and that's that's the reality of the situation, you know? And I know it's still early days, but we're bottom of the league and that has to change. And I don't really know what else to say. OK, I mean, excellent. You've said the word particular at times there as well.  And we're two games into the season. Yeah, I mean, they got heavily beat on Saturday as well. They're home by obviously a very good side in Brighton. But I think it's just it's to me for me. It's like the mental fatigue of like last season and now this season and obviously the season before it all. Just like doesn't like it. Obviously, Dave mentioned a ray of sunshine before. There is no ray of sunshine for us. Is that it was being sarcastic, by the way? No, we were come up. What me? Oh, that's not. Whoa, listen, listen. We we we love your dower down beat tones, pet. You know, it's what what makes us tune in on a weekly basis. I thought you were being genuine then.  Is there in people fans are. Fans are getting really despondent. You see it on social media, whether you want to use that as your gauge or not. But fans are getting really just and you wonder whether how far that will go. Like how long that will go on for. Like you saw the away end at the end. Like, you know, people just leaving in their droves. And I know of people have gone to the away games and stuff. But how long before that, you know, becomes people leaving in the droves or Gotherson or people just not even turning up at Gotherson and and just going the pub instead and and getting and I honestly believe if obviously the new stadium wasn't on the horizon, I genuinely believe we'd be getting less than 30,000 grads if the if the new stadium wasn't on the horizon. I honestly I do. I believe if that people weren't thinking well, I need to keep holding me ticket, me season ticket. I think people would start to be thinking of packing in now because it's just not fun. It's not enjoyable. Like you look at that game and you don't have that. Like, like we speak to a lot like quite a lot of people on here and from different clubs and a lot of them I've whether a lot of them are probably just as bad as others. But they have that optimism. They still go the match every week feeling like they've got hope when in a game. And you said it before, but as you're as optimistic as anybody, at times, but even you were like, this is this is one of those games that, you know, we're going to get beat. You know, I was asked before the game what score I thought was going to be. I said four nil. We're going to crumble today. And because you can just tell sometimes with our team. It's like all this stuff during the week of we played well and we missed chances and we were full of my rubbish, the rubbish. And we saw that again. We saw that on Saturday, the rubbish and we should have beaten them. And you're right. Wolves now in Sheffield United become huge games. To take the pressure off the manager. But on the flip side of that, and it's not a blessing in disguise. I wouldn't go that far. But everybody now knows that in the next week, we need players. And there's no getting away from that. And we're in a situation where it's like we can't wait till January. We need players because the fundamental lack of quality in the squad is alarming. And so we have to get those players in. Dave, I mean, I know your answer will be no, I'm not surprised. But it is nonsense, isn't it? We've needed a sense of forward for two years. You know, Dom, I don't subscribe to this. You know, I thought he was poor. Some people booming on the weekend was woeful when he went off. He was obviously suffered a bad injury. We know Neil Mopai's not the answer. It's not worked, ever need a sense of forward. Are you surprised again? Are you surprised that they haven't addressed this? I mean, I would have thought after full on, it would have been right. We need someone in this week. And it's great that Dom's coming back. That would have just been a bonus. Why are we on, you know, the time of recording? It's the middle of the week. We've got a game in three days at Gwldersen. And right now, we've got no sense of forward. It can change. We might sign someone tonight, tomorrow, whatever. But are you surprised they haven't addressed this? Cos it's embarrassing now. I think I was surprised. I was surprised, you know, eight months ago and before that 12 months ago. And here we find ourselves having the same conversation. You know, we said this time last year that we desperately needed a centre forward above all else. Yeah, yeah, right. There's no question about it above all else, yet they still seem to be looking at wingers left, right, centre. And it's like I said to you before, I've got nothing against wingers, especially I've got nothing against goal scoring wingers. It's just a question of priorities and especially it's a question of priorities, not just in the order at which you recruit, but based upon very, very limited finances. You know, if we're now not a club that can can go and effectively buy whatever we need on our shopping list, you've got to make sure that you spend that money in the most effective way. And we all know that the most head and shoulders, the most desperate thing that we need is somebody to regularly score goals, a decent centre forward. It should have happened last summer. It didn't happen. We therefore said that, well, it's got to happen in January. We all said, didn't we? We kind of said before Christmas, you watch it be like January sales.  She knows exactly what blouse she's going to get because she's seen it online. She's going to rush in. She's going to get that in a size 12 and she's going to get straight out the door, right? And that's exactly what should have happened and all the business should have been done early doors. And was it? No, it wasn't done at all. And here we find ourselves in exactly the same situation. So will we do something ahead of Wolves at the weekend? Who knows, Barry? You know, we desperately should do, but my optimism or positivity on that actually happening with this club is starting to really fail me. Do you know where I really struggle, right? Is that we know what we need, OK? It's a big, big wealth out there. There's lots of slikers that Evan could bring in that would shoot what the manager wants to do, OK? I keep banging on about A-core Adams. If Devon didn't have any money, he was perfect. Four and a half millions, a little bit of a gamble, but he's physical. He's aggressive. He's gone to France. He's got three in his own in two games, right? If Devon haven't got a lot of money, fine. That's that's what we're working in. Why are we throwing 25 million pound bits in for a wing of that? Do you know what I mean? If we genuinely haven't got loads of money then like you just said, Dave, prioritise it. Try and get the striker shorted. And then if you've got some you can club together some money near the end of the window. Go and sign Nick that because we all know there'll be players on Deadline Day. Everton will sign Eric Dyer or Harry McGuire on Deadline Day. We know that. And it wouldn't put it past it. We hadn't signed a wing of that and Dan James comes in on loan as well. I haven't ruled him out by the way either. Dee Dee on Deadline Day, Dyer and Dan. But we're desperate for the striker right now. Got use of Chimity. And if the manager was saying, he's flying and looking to get him involved. You know, the manager last week, he was like, he basically went, who? Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, the young lad. Oh, yeah.  He could be the next Moise Keane for all we know.  Marko wants a second go at Moise Keane, apparently. But that's the thing that doesn't add up for me. If you've got no money till you try to sign the players on loan, if you've got no money, then like you said, Dave, surely it's priorities. There's no, I want a winger, I do. I want a right winger. Preferably, I would have liked Nontro. I didn't, I wasn't that keen on him at the start and I've done that evident thing. Now I can, I've been desperate for him, whichever its ownings do.  We've already got three in the squad. Three, four, if you include Ashley Young, you can play, you know. We're desperate for a striker. That's what I can't get me into. I remember sitting here 12 months ago when we were talking about it, me and Dave basically said about Dominic Cavalloon saying we both said he was finished and we had to get it. That's a bit harsh. No, but in terms of reliability. I do believe we've been proving that. Well, I don't think he's finished, but he's not reliable, is he? OK, but I, you know, listen and to your point before Barry is that, you know, Dominic Cavalloon's dad's come out in the press and stuff like that and he said that he was disgusted by certain sections of the Travelling Everton fans booing him. And I think we all agree, you know, there's no place for that. Right now, it's not helpful in any way. You know, he sustained an injury. We've all seen it. You know, that should never happen and you can't condone that in slightest. However, he's just. He's never going to be the answer. I don't think, you know, and I think me and pet agree with this and that's nothing against him. I just don't think that over the course of a season, he's going to be the answer. He's never going to stay fit enough. He's never going to score enough goals. He's too, he's too fragile. He's a good player, but he's too fragile. And for that reason, you know, he. So that's why we should have that. We should be doing something. Of course, that was my point was that it's like the law of probabilities is he just isn't going to play. You know, what like enough games is this so ever. And I've got it for a player who's got now got less than two years left on his contract. Everon, I've got a serious start. I've got to be in the market for a player that he can trust in. And and the thing about him, while he's got two years left, why aren't they exploring the map?  Maybe they're lesser in a lesser standard, of course, but players that you could build up over a couple of years. And I know that's what they hope to do with your meeting. But there's got to be just a little bit more creativity when we're bringing these players in. You look at other teams and I'm not saying it's what we should be doing, but you look at other teams and they, you know, they do bring in lots of players and some of them work and some of them don't. They bring them in for small fees and they seem to get a little bit of joy out of them where we continually and more like a broken record go for the same kind of player. Someone who's played in the Premier League, somebody who's been around the block, hasn't really done anything, has failed somewhere or just hasn't really done it somewhere. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it doesn't really move the needle. It doesn't really move you forward. It keeps you exactly where you are, looking at players who have already been relegated. You never think it'd feel the team with relegated players if, you know, they got a couple more in. And I just don't quite understand why we threw all our eggs in one basket for none so I just don't get that at all. And it never felt like we were ever going to get them out of there. It never really felt... But once you knew that they didn't have they didn't have a relegation clause or whatever, and the problem never had with this. And listen, these things happen all the time. Everton have apparently walked away, Leeds are saying he won't go. It could change again, of course it could. You know, Leeds could decide later on to sell them whatever or ever and offer a bit more. But if you haven't got any assurances that that's going to happen, why are you wasting your time?  He is dynamic. But it's not like he's the charlison. It's not like we go, we get him in, we've got 10 goals cos he gets the lad got two in the Premier League last season. I'm not going to sleep any better between now and the weekend if he signs tonight. No, that's it, isn't it? Cos it just becomes hopeful, Dave, doesn't it? You just go, oh, hopefully he'll do this. It's not. Yeah, I mean, Ed, saying about, you know, not moving the situation forward and signing players, you've already been relegated, I get that. Does Vardy fit into that bracket for you or not? I wouldn't go near Vardy. Would you not? Because I think it's three goals last season, Dave. I just think at some point, I know what you mean. I know what you mean, Dave. I just think at some point we have to stop the behaviour that has got us to this position. Like, and I just think for me, he's that kind of play where it's diminishing returns. What would you have to offer him to get him away from Leicester and all that, the life that he, you know, the very good life that he's got, there's a matter he's playing in the Premier League, not playing in the Premier League. He's a legend there. I just think that that's the kind of one where you go, what are you going to get from him? I fully understand the idea behind it. I just love it like Vardy says. I just love us to get away from looking at that kind of sign and thinking a little bit out the box. Maybe it's too late for that. I don't know. I think I agree with you theoretically and in a long-term solution for the good of the club, of course I do, but I think I may be looking at it slightly different in terms of a short-term fix and sticking plaster on a gaping wound. And that's the way that I'm looking at it. Isn't she Adam Stath, Dave? And it's difficult to get excited about him, though, isn't it? No, no, listen, listen. You know. He's more calls than Vardy last season, but what I mean is, what I mean is, and again, you know, we'll back him if he comes in, as an Everton player, of course, you will. He is someone who can lead the line, he does battle away and he's probably a bit more like Ditesch once. It's not, again, I keep going on about Eichor Adams, there's lots of gift up and will be the one I go for. If I'm Everton now with that money, that isn't going to none, so gift or ban is the one I go after. You get him for 30 million euros, 27 million quid, I'm sure they're down payment, wasn't massive when Spares were looking at him. Would he come? Well, it's the Premier League, and if no one else is banging on your door, you'll come. He's 20 or 21. He's a hot prospect. He's got a record of putting the ball in the back of the net. Whereas we're looking and going, he gets five or four goals and he gets... We're looking at players who have played in the Premier League and have not scored goals or have stopped scoring goals. Why aren't we looking for the players on the way up? Who, you know, where's the development of these players to come in? I know it's not easy. Part of me almost feels like you've got to break... Well, not part, I think you've got to break the cycle because it's the cycle that keeps getting us back to where we are. It's that cycle that keeps us circling the drain rather than going, we're going to try something different here. The whole club just needs to stop and look around. Cos, I mean, go back to your point, Dave, it's the same, isn't it? It's like this guy will do us for this season to keep us away from the relegation. All right, well, there's one. We've been mentioned again this morning. Romelu Llyw Carcha. Not in a Chelsea. I imagine Chelsea eventually will just go, yeah, you can go on long because no-one's paying 40 million for him, or Dave-one's, would he come back to me for it? And I don't know. But Romelu Llyw Carcha, everything, would it be worth paying like 10 million for him for this season in the hope that he gets 15 goals and keeps you up? Rather than paying to him? Yeah, I sat in and said no, then I'd be lying. No, no, what I'm saying, because there's no guarantee that, of course, because he's another... Depends which Romelu Llyw Carcha you get as well, though, in terms of, do you get heavyweight Romelu Llyw Carcha or do you get kind of, you know... But is that vision still better than Jamie Vardy and still better than Tia Adams? That's what you've got to ask yourself. I don't know, it's simple. And like I said, I'm not even sure he'll come here, but what I mean is there's a lad kicking his heels who's been here before, he does score goals. Ever need somebody who can score goals? Does it suit both? I don't know. But the other thing, just before we finish on this, if it is Tia Adams, you'd have identified, right? And he's the one messing around with Salthampton on five million of fronts, and we've off a three and a half million of fronts. Just paid a blade in five million, because what if Leeds went, Everton? We've got a deal on Nonto, by the way. And Salthampton, because Everton are after both, it's not one or the other. So just paid, if it's that's the sticking point over Tia Adams, pay it, so the manager's got a forward he wants in for Saturday. Get him up here tonight, get his medical done tomorrow, training Thursday and Friday in place at the, and then we've got a striker in between, you shift your midi, we've got our centre forward, we've got Dominic Alvert-Lewin, who I think will be back for Chef United, the saying with the protective mascot. So therefore, we can then move Neil Mopai out. Who wants to go and Everton want one out as well. Rather than just kicking the can down the road, which we seem to be doing. Depression, depression. There is still, what is it? There's still nine days or something to go in the market, and I'm sure it'll be a busy time for everybody. Let's hope. Can we just start the season again on Saturday? Davey, are you in favour of the window shutting before the season starts? I think it probably makes it cleaner to be honest with you. Yeah. Cos then all this is gone, hasn't it? You've got what you've got, don't you? Yeah, you know what you're starting with is what you've got. I think it would be cleaner and easier to be honest with you, but... Di bwnt, do it. Di don if a one season and then bitched about it, or a go poppa. I'm sure next week will be better. We'll beat Walls at the weekend, by hoho, by cruch. And then maybe, maybe. I don't say that with any real confidence. I'm just, I'm planning. That's apparent, Barry. Yeah, I'm trying to be very positive. I'm trying to be very positive, but yeah, but yeah. I meant to get, we had a deal with Andy Bush. Oh yeah, we did, didn't we? Hey, we've had several deals with Andy Bush. We have had several deals. The last 12 months, to be honest with you. I'm very few of them have come to fruition. That is correct. We are, in a way, we're like, we're like Evan's recruitment team, aren't we? With where Andy Bush is concerned. We keep... Always the bridesmaid. Yeah, never. And it should have been, there should have been input from the Bush today. I believe so. I'll take responsibility for that. That's on me. I'll be the, I'll be the bad guy. Are you the Kevin Thelwell of this? I'm gonna, I'll hold me hand up and go full Thelwell here. So which means I wouldn't be speaking to a camera right now. I'd have written it down. But let's move on from that. But he is missing again in action, the Bush. And we sold it on without him. It's because he spends so much time on Facebook looking around for dolls. It is. He is a doll Facebook doll buyer, isn't he? Apparently, whatever, whatever. I don't know where you just said that. They are correcting some kind of... Yeah, put them in an order, that makes sense. If he's not DJing in Ibiza, he's buying dolls on Facebook, is that what you're saying? Yeah, or cruising with Disney? Why wouldn't you? You mean Ritchie? Given the chance. Yeah, you know. Yeah, I mean, surely they go cruising in Scotland in the fourth of faith just to fit in with Ritchie. And he could, yeah, you know, that kind of thing.  They look good with midge nets on their heads, I think.  Yeah, absolutely, add net to Bush. Net to Bush. I was seeing something the other day about the olden days, which led me thinking... That doesn't apply to me then, surely? No, no, no, no, I'm talking hundreds of years ago. I was sure. With Dave's, Dave's got a skateboard, tucked under his hand there. Dave's there. Fygin' full, full Marty McVitie there. Um, about... It was a thing about arguments, right? And it was like, there was a comparison thing, but just one thing I took from it was like, it was the shittest way to settle an argument years ago.  Now, have you only just discovered this? No, no, but it's just come back. It was just like how times have changed. Now, if I'm having an argument or a disagreement, I'm happy sometimes to just hold me hands up and go, all right, you've given a compelling argument there. We'll settle it as you've won the argument. A duel of dawn. So just because I've got a different point of view than you or Dave, and you don't agree with it, we've got to get up. I mean, there'd be no chance doing it with you because the fella that stood there, the fella will be stood there with a gun. You'd be nowhere in sight. You'd be there, honestly, for about six hours. And then suddenly, at the crack of noon, I had emerges. I take your comments and I'll disregard them. You can't, I've seen a message from you around nine this morning, which was very unpedig. I believe that while the man or lady or whatever the person identifies this is waiting for me to duel. That's a challenge you to duel. You would see me in the distance just jogging along. Jogging along in the distance. I've got to get me running first. Let me get me running. I've got to do a bit of running first. I've got to get me steps in. You've got your pistol in sight. It wouldn't be like it if it goes baggy trials just that they used to have with the white shape, with the ruffled, you know, sleeves. And you'd have, you'd be jogging along. Absolutely. Absolutely. Sounds a bit spandabale when you describe it like that. I was thinking bit of the man. But, I mean, what, yeah. Dave can't see me. Ridiculous, nothing to... Do you not think it was a bit excessive just over a disagreement? I can see it coming back. I mean, it seems to be coming back, I'll be honest. I can see it coming back just the way people are now. Yeah, I mean, you know, people in their pride and all that. Lives were way less then, you know, life expectancy was probably about 27. So what did it matter? So it didn't matter, so I'll have to speed it up. It's a natural selection, isn't it?  In some ways, it's probably better than being cancelled. Well, it's one way of being cancelled. It is one way of ultimately being cancelled, yeah. You'd feel a tip wouldn't it if you challenged someone to the duel and they just had you off once you're bang on. Those guns were rubbish, though. They were.   No, like little bits of metal. Yeah, but a date, at least. Yeah, but a date, but I don't know, is it enough? Is it like a ping? Maybe it's like a ping pong.  They're just like, ooh, ooh. You got me, yeah. Stung you. Ooh. Like a, like red-ass with the ball, that kind of thing. That's me. I'm asking if that was a way to settle argument, like red-ass and don't, red-ass and don't.  Red-ass at nine for Ped. I tell you what, don't go googling that red-ass at the door and whatever. That's a proper clear history moment. Yeah, that wouldn't be good, you know, you'd need private braving on for that, wouldn't you? You know what I mean? You don't be cruising for that. No. See, but red-ass at nine has got a better sound. I can imagine that on Channel 5. Yeah. Percentur by Andy Bush. Exactly, yeah. You know, red-ass at nine. Cruising and red-ass at nine. Cruising for red-ass at nine. Is that arguably one of the shittest ways to die? That you've had a disagreement in a pub. Never a good way is that? No, there isn't a good way. No, of course, there isn't a good way. Well, it depends, but there's never a good way. But if you're just in the public house the night before and say you were discussing the modern, you know, the old version of Michael Keane and Neil Mopai, you were just having a discussion about something akin to them in the olden days, you know, which farmers better or who could grab chickens quicker or let all the chickens out, whatever, or anything. I get from Michael Keane letting all the chickens out. Well, there you go. And if you were having a deal with Neil Mopai, you might be all right. But if you, you know, match in it, and then the next minute you find yourself, me and David, be a dawnhead at nine. Yeah, yeah. I like to get up early. And there you go. You've got your run in first, Dave, with your lycra run. You'd find yourself in a, it was always misty when you're staying in like film. It's misty in the morning. You're there having to risk getting shot or like you've challenged someone the next minute you've done. Oh, what happened to Pet? Well, he had a disagreement over the chickens in real life. Well, yeah, you'd be all right, but it'd be, you could send someone else there because it's misty and get away with it. You know, just go in for us. As long as you didn't die. Yeah, but you know, but you could be in bed or send a shadowy figure going off this dawn felt, you know, because you wouldn't have to get out of bed then. But I think that would be the shit as well if you were the challenger of the duel and then you died from it. I don't have to cry. Is this been on your priority list for a while? No, it's just seen it the other day and it just started. Wait, did you see it? Why? It was just, you know, when you're looking through stupidness. No.  There was a thing about how arguments escalated now. Like, oh, it's a, but they were saying, but...     Go on, say it. It's kind of related to you with your fogginess. Yeah. And by that, I mean the fact that it's always foggy during those days. In the jewels, yeah. The jewels at the door, right? Yeah. Now, certain things that I don't fully understand. And I don't mind that, you know, because I'm in my late thirties now and I'm not expected to know everything. But there's certain things that still puzzle me as a man of my age, right? And one of them I've explained before is seedless grapes because I don't understand those. I've said that many times because the seed is the essence of life and how do they work without seedless grapes? That's the first one. Wi-Fi, I don't understand. I still don't really understand how Wi-Fi works. I find that like magic. But the one that actually dawned me while I was away on my North Coast 500 thing and stayed in a couple of hotels is how do those non-foggy up bathroom mirrors work, right?  The traditional way. But now they have these new fangled ones whereby for some reason the mirror doesn't fog up. Now, are you aware of this concept or am I talking about a new thing? No, go on. The only thing I was aware of is if you put shaving foam on your mirror and then wipe it off, your mirror doesn't fog up for a while. That's the only... But that's like a hack, isn't it? No, this isn't a hack, yeah. Go on then. No, no, no. This is a new thing. This must be electrical, I think. Is it warm, so therefore it doesn't... I don't understand how that works either because if the mirror was warm then you've got the warm, you know... Maybe it is warm, maybe that's the thing. Cos maybe then, maybe the reason that makes it foggy is maybe it's a hot condensation hitting the cold mirror, which makes it fog up. Therefore, if you had the mirror warm, you wouldn't have the same discrepancy in temperature and therefore you wouldn't have that situation happen. That could be it, but I don't know that, but I think it's really clever. There is things, isn't it? I always go back to fax machines. I can do it's role in here and send it to me, mate. Clever, isn't it? I sort of really understand how radio works, you know, and that's been around for hundreds of years. Did you know Wi-Fi was invented by Hedy Lamar? Oh. Hedy Lamar. You must have heard of Hedy Lamar. Is he related to Thomas Lamar? He's the very famous actress in the 40s and 50s. OK, if she invented Wi-Fi. How weird is that? How did she invent Wi-Fi? No, well, tell me how she did. Well, I know she invented it, ask me. Well, that's been around for ages. So what was she doing in the 40s? If she invented it in the 40s. She invented it, right? And the Americans stole it off her and she never got a penny. That's happened with loads, though. That happened with Faraday and people like that. Knowledge bombs dropped. Nicola Tesla. Tesla or Tesla, they didn't rub off them. They rub off, yes. It's car. It's car straight away. I mean, it was cars, electric cars. Elon has developed it over time. Elon's from space anyway, you know? And I think that will play out in time. I think that will come out. I think for sure. I think he will be the first celebrity alien. I think he will be Elon Musk. But how on earth does Wi-Fi work? I mean, genuinely. Wait, he always jumps into the frequency. My friend was over the weekend from LA. Pasadena, he lives now, he's from Liverpool. But he works for NASA. He works for NASA? Yeah, he works in a jet propulsion lab in Pasadena for NASA. And he was first of all, he said, I've got a bone. I did say I would talk about this. So we said, he hasn't been over. Last time he used to come over was COVID. And the time before, he was over when I was in America. So we missed. But he said, I haven't seen it. But I have heard a couple of your things about the moon. Oh, yeah. So I did say he went the moon. I was like, well, did he? So I was said. What's his take on it? Because he's obviously a SpaceX. Well, he said he went the moon. And he said, well, he would though, wouldn't he? That's going to be NASA's line. This is what I said. This is what I said, protecting the brand. But what he said was, he said there is shadows on the moon because of whatever. It doesn't shine. I said there's no wind. And he said, no, there wasn't any wind. He said, but when you plant a flag into that surface, it vibrates for ages because it doesn't. It does not stop, it vibrates. It does not stop, so it's waving. So he gave a slightly compelling argument what about there was no jewel. Put it that way. What about the day when the Indians land on the moon? What are you going to say then? When? Today. Well, when they land on the moon today, quite clearly they've gone, haven't they? There's no one in it. It's only a ship. No, but this is what because we were getting on to. We were getting on to sending things into space and all the stuff and all this. Neil Mopay would be good. Well, Michael King. Your words, not ours, Dave. It's fine. I can say it because I'm merely a contributor. You know, this isn't an official toffee TV line. They would be the first two people in those two seats. Would they be like in an actual rocket or would you put them in the Tesla? Like memory on most sense, a Tesla in space. They just had the dummy. What's matters? What's they're asking for? He was saying obviously they're asking for people to, old people to go to Mars, aren't they? He's fuming over. It's fuming over. Like Ashley Young. It's fuming over. No, slightly older. Ffuming is probably not the right word, but he was like, well, it's a little bit pointless sending people because no one's ever going to live on Mars. No one's ever going to live on the moon. It's nonsense. It costs crazy amounts of money to send. But all the stuff we're developing, they're developing in space. Should just be robotic or not because they can still do the exact same thing. So clever. Well, I mean, I'm not an expert. I just had the conversation.  No one's going to live on Mars. Someone will live on Mars. Nobody. I bet you. Nobody. I'll have a duel with you. We'll have a duel over it. See, I think I've got time on my side. Now you haven't said any more. No, you haven't. Because there's more probability that someone will live on the moon and live on Mars. So therefore, but I'm not giving a time. I'm just saying someone will live there. I don't know. I think they will. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I think it's a long way, isn't it? It is a long way. It's a long way. That's the thing. You know, you have to look at it. It's not an easy commute. It's a long way. There's no there's no decent infrastructure. You know, and these are all reasons to to maybe rule it out. Could you location, location, location? Do you imagine it's not a good one? Could you imagine the place of Mars bars on the service station on the way? Well, you know, property would be cheaper, wouldn't it? We don't have a bath still, do we? What do you think? What do you call? Will they have a bath on Mars? Who are they? People who've gone to. Whoever lived on. You said you said whoever lived, if they became a time, would they have a bath? Oh, remember if you know what I mean. We don't have a bath, do we? Because we're talking so far into the future. Maybe that's how they remember it. If it continues to heat up with an air bath. I think, though, that Mars bars were called Mars bars because it was the Mars family, I think, rather than being a space thing. Let me check. I don't think they were live research. This is live research. Keep going. Was there a Milky Way family or a Milky Bar family? A Milky Way, I think, is definitely named after the area of space. Hang on. So is it not in the Mars Bar family there? And Galaxy, what was that named after? The Galaxy family? I do believe it's a corporation, rather than a planet that they were named after. I mean, the beauty of this podcast being as relaxed as it is is that we are able to actually do stuff live research without even editing. No, don't worry about that, let's off. Invented in... Oh, no, that's deep fried Mars bars. No, no, no.  He's ticking all the podcast boxes, isn't he? He's everywhere. He's in Paris first, then St Andrews, then Liverpool, then the Liverpool match at the weekend. But deep fried Mars bars? Like, what is that? Other than killing, yeah.  Is it, though? No, I mean, genuinely, isn't it? Can you back that up with science? Well, I can back it up with mortality, which is what me Mrs Wakes in. Life expectancy, it's like 10 years. That's some evidence. I mean, it's 100% based on evidence. It's not evidence. It's based on evidence. It's like chatting the kitchen. That's the fry in the Mars. Hey, listen, listen, listen, we have actually upholded, you know, looser theories before on this podcast. No, it's that's a thing. That's a thing the life expectancy in Scotland is shorter than anywhere else in the UK. If we date it, right? I need date it. I'm not going to do it. But no, Dave's just championing the live research, but I'm not going to do it right now.  No wonder on everything else. Right. Anyway, listen to me, right? The Mars bar was first manufactured in Slough, England under the Mars bar name in 1932 by Forrest Mars senior, son of American candy maker, Frank C. Mars. Right? OK. Mars bar was named after the the the the confectionary on the maker, the Mars family. All she's done, Dave, is just make your point correct what you said and I'll be honest with you. When you said it, there is science, but when you said it, when you said it, there was no elements of disbelief from me. I believed 100% because I thought that was a bit random. I'm that kind of person, though, Barry. You know, when I talk, people listen. Well, he convinced people, but he's obviously. I believe Dave because he had science to back him up.  I'll tell you literally, God, I've got a science. I'm not guessing this thing. You know what I mean? He's got facts. He's got the internet. He's got Frank C. Mars. Frank C. Mars is what I mean. Mars bars, though, is there any chocolate that has stood the time as well as Mars bar? Stood the time like stood the test of time. Sorry, I'm flustered now because you've thrown science at me, right? Mars is getting to it. Stood the time. I think Mars bars are tremendous. They've got smaller. They've kept the vein on the front very much like very much, which is what was designed because it was a male who designed it with the amount of the vein, which is, well, you know, just what was a second. Yeah, because, you know, we all sort of thought we knew where you were going with the conversation. But is that actually true? Well, I mean, it's true. It's supposed to be in some way relative of something else. Yeah, I mean, I'll base my science here was on something Ben Elton said in the 80s about it. So that's where I'm listening to Ben Elton. I'm not worried about that. I'm not worried about what the snicker bars based on them. Full of nuts. Well, there you go.  They've gone, you've got the vein and you've got the nuts. They've gone all in snickers.  Nonto, nonto. Back on Big Wilfred and Wilfried. Nonto, you know, see what we've done there now. Well, name me something, a chocolate bar that has stood the test of time as well as a Mars. No, because I'm not a historian on chocolate. No, but for you yourself, I mean, something that, as a kid, it was going strong and now as a very old man, older man, older man. Sorry. Now, as an older man, it's still... It's still standing the test of time. I'm not ready for Mars yet. I won't say. I don't know. See, cos I was eating Mars, I was back in the day, I was eating a Mars bar as a kid and I still have one at the match. I'm still nice. Every weekend. Well, no, cos evidence don't have them all the time, Dave. He shall open the upper bullons. Hang on, but you could take your own, surely? No, no, no. I try to give the football club some... But you think about it, 19 games in a season, plus maybe one cup game, you could go to a cash-in-carry at the beginning and get it by a box and just put them in the fridge. But then I'd be travelling to the match with my Mars bar in me. That seems almost... That would seem almost like premeditated. I like to feel like I'm edgy on the day. I might get a bouncy today. How do you feel about an ice cream Mars? Not to the match, because it's difficult to transport. That would be difficult. But, I mean, if I was to come round to your house... Yeah, Dave, whenever you want to. OK, that's a lovely thing. And I wouldn't turn up without a gift. OK, yeah. And so I'd want to turn up with something. If I turned up with a box of ice cream Mars bar, how would that make you feel in terms of our friendship and our relationship as a whole? I'd be fine with it, but I would be slightly curious how you've managed to keep them from melting. Yeah. Because I would have what I call an eski or an ice box in the car. OK. We would protect them in terms of the transport from Lidl to your house. I will. I don't know if there's a chef. I don't know Lidl. In the gated community, bars lives in. A did they just... Can you get ice cream Mars bar as in Lidl? Yeah, you can get anything in Lidl. OK. Not called Mars bar. No, well, that's what I mean. I'd want a genuine ice cream. No, no. I wouldn't want an ice cream titan for argument's sake for an oldie. No, I'd want the Mars bar. But I'll... I'm going to wow you now, Dave. While watching season three of Deadwind last night on Netflix, which is set in Finland that the detective thing is tremendous, I did consume an ice cream Mars bar. No, there you go. There you go. I didn't like it, right? And it was very nice. Yeah, I'm with you, Dave. I'm with you. I'm with you. It's... I think the caramel is more prevalent than the ice cream. It is. Well, it's just... Do you think it's just more... It blends together. Yes, it does. Because I think it gets a little bit lost in the traditional Mars bar. Well, you've also got to have a hot drink, I think, to get the best out of a Mars bar. It's better consumed with having a cup of tea to wash it down. To dip in? Not to dip in. No, no, not necessarily to dip in, but to wash down. You see, what you've got to think of, you could never... You see, at the match, Everton could never have things like Mars bar, ice cream Mars bar. But what Everton do very well is they totally and utterly nuclear eyes. It's not a word, but I'm now saying it. Things like steak pies. I got a steak pie at Godderson. It's best going under my seat till halftime. I've done it once, I think I've said this. I can even remember the day in the game. Because, A, Everton were attacking in those days. And B, my first bite was after 25 seconds after kick-off. And at 28 seconds, I was juggling to keep it in my hands cos Romelu Llew Llew Carch, who scored. We beat Bourne at 6-3. You still saw him at the pie, yeah? Both. Right? We beat Bourne at 6-3. 6-3, and Matthew and Everton scored on 6 goals. But I stupidly took a bite on my pie, kick-off cos I thought I'm hungry here. All right, literally. I had to put it in my hand. It's a rookie mistake. I'm just holding it till about 20-3 before I could take my next bite because whatever they did, they obviously put extra heat. It just didn't go cold. Did you have a hand like no marf in Home Alone when he grabs the door? Yeah, it was literally, you could see. Sayers on your hand. It wasn't Everton, as if it'd be sayers. It used to be. It was like Fred and Ginger's pie or something. Fred and Ginger's pie. I didn't want to put any other brand out there because they're not paying us. Are they a famous dance act? Possibly. Yeah, Fred and Ginger Rogers, I think you'll find. They were from the olden days. They were from the olden days. They acted like a conversation from before. Full circle. I had to just hold it. So the only other time I bad won, it went under me, see till that shield, under me, see till half-time. And at half-time, it was sad. It's double bubble because it keeps your bottom. Warm. Well, now it's sitting on it. No, no, but just the seat. He can't get through the seat. It's got the seat. Anything could happen. Right, you've got to be careful in the upper bulands with a nuclear rise, again, that way. That doesn't exist. Red-ass at dawn again, aren't you? Well, red-ass at three. It all comes first. Red-ass at half-twelve or two o'clock or whatever time they tell us we've got to play. People think that this is just round together, Bollocks, but actually, you know, it's all carefully constructed. We know where we're going. Exactly, there's breadcrumbs and we just litter. It's like, you know, dot-to-dot when you were younger. Did you ever play that you must have done dot-to-dot? We had Nintendo. There was also... That's why you can't. That's why you're writing terrific.  But dot-to-dot, that's what it's like with this podcast. You just follow. And at the end of it, it makes a picture of Andy Bush. Yeah. We've hit all the points on it. Andy Bush. Cruising with Ritty. Absolutely. In a wig. And there we are, back full circle. Back full circle. Right, let's leave it there. I think we've covered enough topics there this week. Topics? Topics, see? It's an assortment of chocolate bars. You see? The shock of Go-Go. It is, isn't it? The shock of Go-Go, what is that? It's a nice, smashy, nicey tune. Llyma, o Thomas, Llyma. Again, back to Llyma, who invented, what did she invent? A wi-fi. She did. Did someone make it a wi-fi? Was she ever anyone's wi-fi, no? No? You don't know. Let's leave it there. Right, make sure you... Yeah, we'll be back next week, and hopefully we'll have a bit of bush. The stubble might have grown back. See you later, bye. Oh my God. Lovely stuff. Nice one, Dave. Enjoy that. Take care, mate. Take care, I'll see you later. Don't mind, see you later. Tyra, mate.


Hello, this is Gerrit Leonhardt. Welcome to another edition of Meeting of the Minds. Today I have with me from Sydney, Australia, Ross Dawson, futurist, author, strategist and a good friend. We are discovering that governments know far more about us than we ever imagined, down to the intimate details of our lives, knowing more about us than we know about ourselves. So what are the implications of that, do you think, Gerrit? I tend to compare the internet and digital data to nuclear power. So what we have here is tremendous power in our fingertips to find information. And on the other side, we don't really know how to, if there's a big emergency, we don't know how to finish it or how to deal with it because it just burns out, basically. We have no way of really stopping the disaster. And data is very much the same way with privacy. What we've done now, we've become naked as a consequence of the internet. And we enjoy being naked for the most part because people can find us, for example, and unlinked in. And we have a benefit. We've made a Faustian deal, a deal with the devil, you could say, except for that we always knew that the deal existed. So I don't think we should be surprised if we know how much the government can find out about us. That all existed before. The bad thing about this is that they weren't transparent with it. They gave us no recourse, or they're giving us no recourse. They're giving us no control. They're not apologizing. So it's not surprising that this exists, that people are using our data for all kinds of purposes. And this is only the tip of the iceberg. We're at 1% of the app use of this. We're going to go to 1,000% in the next five years because there's just a lot more data there. Location data, privacy data, health data, media use, payments will go digital. So it's not surprising. I think it's crucial that we need to put things in like a recourse way, transparency requirements, all of these things that we have in use, for example for money, we have recourse, we can complain or we can do things, but we don't have it for data. So that needs to happen urgently. David Brennan is a book, The Transparent Society, said that we have two possible futures. In every future we can imagine, individuals will be totally visible by governments and corporations. But the two choices, the two possibilities, are that individuals and citizens can look back into the institutions of government and corporations or that we can't, and it's just that one-way visibility. So what we're seeing is that the extent of the information required, I mean, for some time I've been saying that the reality is if we step outside our front door, we are entirely seen. Now we're finding that even if we speak on the phone or we communicate or if we're watching anything, that all of that is known about us. And the challenge I think is that people sometimes say that if you're not doing anything wrong, you've got nothing to worry about. That assumes that the government is one which respects us and which is trying to do the right thing by citizens. I don't think we can be confident that all the governments in the future who will have the legacy of all this data will be able to ones who we can trust with that data. It comes down to trust, and trust is based on a few things. For example, trust is based on a mutual conversation. If you're always dominating me, I'm not going to trust you as much as you may appreciate it, right? If you don't give me a recourse and I can't complain, I'm not going to trust you. So all these things, I mean, I think these institutions have to earn trust and they have to keep trust. Otherwise, when we move our trust, they should go away. The challenge is, though, with governments is that we can vote political parties in and out, yet ultimately the mechanisms of government remain. So the democratic government in the United States has inherited all the data of the Republicans, whoever goes into government next will inherit all the data it has. So while we can trust or not trust our political parties or our governments, they still don't go away. I think that that's the challenge we have. We can vote political parties in and out, but that doesn't necessarily change. Not trusting our government doesn't necessarily help us. Let's put it this way. I think for the current scenario here in 2013 is the current scenario is that kind of this machine is taken over. It's a self-running data-eating machine and we're in it. And this is because it's so new. Social media and mobile devices and location services. So what needs to happen is the machine has to be brought back in the control of the paradigm to help us, not to run us. And what is it doing is running us now. So my view is that if this setup of our data going out there and doing all these things without any sort of recourse or control from the user continues, then we're going to be run by this engine, essentially. So all of our work, quality of what we do for work will be measured and used against us or for us, for that matter, depends how you look at it. So what needs to happen is basically empowerment of the user here and the companies who are in this system, like Google, Facebook and many others, they need to be the ones who make the effort of creating these new essentially seat belts and airbags for the use of that data, not the other ones. So it would be the most prudent by Google is, for example, with Google Glass, is to come up with a framework of how that's being used and why and why not, rather than somebody from the outside protesting against them. The issue is what can we do as individuals, and I think partly as individual corporation, we do need to ensure that we can see back into the institutions and create those mechanisms, creating transparent government, creating mechanisms to be able to see what is going on in institutions. And I also think that collectively we need to make our voices heard and that's hopefully over time we'll shape how governments and institutions use our data. There's two things I think we can do about this privacy problem. One is we stop the fast impact. We stop using the places where they are doing this for us. So I mean... That includes telephones. Hard to do with a telephone but easy to do with search engines. Or not easy but possible, right? So the other thing is I think I'm dead certain we're going to start paying for privacy. So rather than my data being used to fuel advertising like it does on Facebook, let me do my own Facebook and I pay for not having advertising. Just like I'm not... I'm paying for Apple TV or Snap Films or whatever. I'm paying money for the movies. I don't want to see the commercials. I want to be left alone. So we're going to start paying for privacy. We're going to have privacy banks, digital identity protection, we're going to start paying for this because if we don't pay, then we are the content. This is an old saying from just from last year. If you don't pay, you are the content. And there's an alternative. I mean that's the deal that you've made. We are the content of Google. We are the content of YouTube. We are the content of Facebook. And we don't pay. So if we reverse this, we can say, okay, what about if we pay, then are we in a safer place? And we should be. InfoMedery dates back to 1997. There's independent institutions that we entrust with our data and we let them manage our data in ways that are beneficial to us. Yet still, a long time later, the promise of the InfoMedery is yet to be seen. And I think the reality is that, unfortunately, most people are going to choose not to pay for privacy. Certainly I think there's potential to do that. But I think it is going to be a minority of people that I choose to pay for the privacy. And the question still is there are still limits to the privacy we can gain, even if we pay for that, because there's so many different channels about where information about us gets out. Yeah, this, of course, I think this is a really tough issue that's going to be a landmine for a lot of companies who want to progress in this direction because as long as these issues aren't solved, I'm not going to give up cash, for example. If I give up cash, then you know everything I've done. I've probably popped somewhere, you know, which is crazy. So this is why people are refusing to get rid of the bridge toll, you know, where they have to put the actual money, because otherwise they can be tracked anywhere using the radio device that's for the bridge toll. So as long as I'm not certain that I can be left alone, I'm not going to participate. I'm not going to have my health data in the sky. I'm not going to pay the bridge toll with the... I mean, I would, but a lot of people aren't. So I think this is something that companies that invent this kind of stuff like IBM and others or Intel, with the Intel television that is reading my face. They work in the tech stuff, but they don't work in the social consequences. And this is a huge mistake, I think, if you're looking at companies like Google and others, they are just inventing stuff, basically a million miles a minute. But they don't invent how we're going to respond to it. And my view is they should spend equal enough time on inventing how we're going to actually realize the good in it rather than the slavery of it. So this concludes today's episode of Meeting of the Minds. Thanks very much to Ross Dawson for being part of this today. If you want to know more about the show, you can go to meetingoftheminds.tv. We are also taking questions and inputs for the next show. Just use the Twitter hashtag meetingoftheminds and we'll be responding and trying to work your comments into our next show. Thanks very much for joining us.


So hello, hello everyone. Is it too loud? So hello everyone and welcome to this talk about Phenops and I hope in the next 40 minutes to shed some light on what Phenops is and what Phenops isn't Full disclosure. I'm an engineer. I'm not the management guy not coming from Phenops And finances so my previous in background is like developer DevOps I currently work as you will see in the company called global data net as an AWS solutions architect and this talk this paper is a Let's call it that Respective talk about the project we had for three years in a large enterprise on Phenops stuff as Engineers and it's been it's been fun. So The large enterprise that Andy and I had worked For is really large. They were spending seven plus million dollars per month on AWS and no wonder they were quite interested in in Doing some Phenops Andy my friend and colleague works for devo team. So my company global data net is an AWS focused company they do everything related to AWS ecosystem and Andy works for devo team their Consultancy company doing all kind of consultancies IT but AWS among other stuff so we started working for This enterprise and it was fun. We started From Phenops foundation. So every time there is something new introduced into IT usually someone comes by and offers Their view of the topic. So Phenops foundation offered their view of Phenops and If you can if you can see this this Well definition, it's really large What is important about this definition is two segments two aspects two things that will be important Throughout the engagement and throughout this paper. The first one is cloud financial management discipline So it is about that so doing Phenops is about managing finances in the cloud the second stuff is cultural practice and Then it comes all the buzzwords that you can that you can think of like enables Organization to get maximum business values and all that stuff You need to have that that goes alongside with the package but two important things like managing money and how do you change the culture in the company and Unfortunately, as you will see until the end of the talk we do only first we only talk about the second But we only do first and what I wanted to offer through this paper is a little bit of insight that Andy and I think Might be valuable if you would like to engage in the second thing. How do you change the culture? but in a way that is You know approachable to engineers and we should know because we are engineers So we were looking at things using our own Perspective now along the way Andy and I came up with our own definition of Phenops and here it is It's beautiful It's like Phenops is about ways to save money in the cloud and ways There is importance in the word ways Because as a DevOps engineer or as an engineer you would like to introduce ways to do stuff like Methodology not just commands not just things that that you do but ways of doing stuff So for us it was ways to save money in the cloud and then you get to know that everyone in that company were always Well before us saving money. So if you were deleting obsolete volumes, you were saving money So that means you were doing Phenops and if you were you know shutting down your instances over the weekends because you don't use them You were doing Phenops, but they were doing a lot of these stuff already What they wanted to do is something more So we came along and we started doing this We started investigating what was happening in the company So before the cloud and again large enterprise really applies to these use cases Before the cloud you would always follow waterfall. You would have everything predictable or at least You know it to some extent predictable, but you would know how much money you were ballpark going to spend You would estimate main days. You would estimate team members. You would estimate Calendar days you need to finish the project and how much money is this going to cost you if you are going to buy some some Machines or networking storage, whatever you would know how much that costs and Then you would be able to assess how much money will it bring back to you What is the return of this investment now when you go to the cloud all that breaks first of all There is no waterfall anymore. At least no one talks about it anymore. It's a different topic whether we use it But we don't talk waterfall. We talk agile. So everything can change. So when you go and do do the project Two weeks later you will get a different requirement that different requirement will require you to change the approach Which would mean that you would pick different resources in the cloud that cost differently and your whole financial construct breaks and That is difficult. It's difficult to lead and this is When we talk before the the talk this is difficult for engineers to understand because it's difficult to run a company Without having this knowledge we have without having this information. It's quite difficult and Every every organization you will meet meets this challenge. This is a dilemma You either and that's the way things operate in people's head. You either give Control to finances and they control the money flow or you give control to tech guys in your company and they control how they build the tech because you know remember the Challenge I need to do stuff the cloud way so cloud native pays you go everything changes If we want to be agile business loves agile business loves changing requirements every week So that's cool. But if we are going to follow that then the finance will break So we have a dilemma and that dilemma has always won always the same answer always the same It's finances Finances win we engineers we lose But you can't really control how engineers do their stuff So what do you do as a finance at least this large enterprise didn't a lot of others that I Talk to or have been in touch with during this time. They're doing the same stuff So everything we see right now is driven by the finance goals and This is because there is only one way finances can limit you So you can be predictable and that's capping your account capping your budget So what you would do if you and this particular enterprise head over? 100 teams working on 400 different accounts and different projects so large large thing So in within these if you would like to start a new project Let's say that you've got an idea and you approach finances and you say I've got this idea And they were managing data and and processing data and and generating all kinds of new information about what they already have And if you have an idea how to monetize something you would approach someone in the business and you would say hey I've got an idea. I think this would work. I've got already clients Interested in that and that's all cool and they would say okay come with some business plan obviously and then you would Come with some ballpark estimate a Couple of slides back waterfall you would come with some bulk up ballpark estimate And they would say cool Don't take it to literally we are agile But that's something we will work with and they would cap your budget with that and that's it You kept you've got your AWS account or multiple accounts. You've got your cap That's not that's the limit you you're not going above that because that's something they can calculate with and Then no one's care. No one cares about what happens after that As long as you stay below the cap and you know what we have found a lot of teams could go much lower But they don't because they don't have to they don't care they do the engineer engineering They do all the fancy stuff.  So who sets up the rules? Finances who plays by the rules us So if my budget is really high and or poor high enough I can play with all kinds of new tech. I can implement stuff that I don't even need to implement I can left stuff behind. It's all cool. You know what what is worse than that if my budget was said too low I was ambitious I want to I want to show off myself in front of the company and then I say I can do it for less money And then I get into trouble because I underestimate The actual business value of the of the of the project and then I have to deal with that because then I have to you know Whatever I do, they will not change the budget. It stays like that because this kills Predictability that's wrong So again from the very beginning two things one Saving the money and that's cool your colleague said About tools that are generating reports. This is phoenix nowadays only the first stuff So you buy a tool you buy a product you form a team internally and what they will do is they will Present you with the data about what you spend where you spend it How much you know worst offenders top five accounts that are spending money and stuff like that But there is nothing about how you mitigate that, you know what they do They put a couple of these recommendation techniques like switch from Intel to AMD. That's cheaper No one asks you if this viable if does this breaks the Engineering that you have to put in so they don't care It's like I have the product for Phenops and I need I need to I know I need to have both things because that Looks good when I present it when I pitch it to to the management stuff So I say I I've got really great importing it does everything for you It will tell you where do you spend the money how much you spend it? What are the worst offenders? We also do have this recommendation engine You know, we tell engineers everything like when to stop the instances when to kill them went to downgrade and all that and that's all Unusable because while working with this enterprise They wanted to buy a couple of tools and I went very in great amount of details through some of them And it's always the same like switch from Intel to AMD or kill your obsolete snapshots or Don't use volumes that you don't use and stuff like that and it's ridiculous So no cultural change. They don't care. You're just like that then Andy and I started discussing and Moaning about that actually and we were talking about how what you can do to make it better And why is it the way it is and then you know all that stuff? And then at some point and he said this sentence and I put it on the slide purposefully like He thought like just as serverless architecture change the way we look at cloud and this space you go concept And all that stuff that you did you see there? We would need a new way at looking at things so we said Let's let's meet this guy this if you haven't read anything from this guy I strongly encourage you to do so. This is Edward stemming He's most famous about the book out of the crisis from 1986 He's got the book in which he reveals foreign principles on how to make your organization more human oriented more culturally engaged more Oriented towards quality. He's the guy that is behind all these six sigma and and similar Organizational stuff movement. He's got a great biography great stuff. So interesting reading just through his biography You don't have to read the book the biography itself is beautiful But one of the most interesting stuff for me out of these foreign principles is this one craftsmanship pride Now if you think about what motivates engineers to do what they do This is it This is the pride to do something if I'm proud about something. I've done then I'm good I feel good. I feel that I should do something more about that It's like the the cycle in the brain the brain gets happy about what I did and then he wants me to do more It's about pride It's about being proud on what you do and being open about what you didn't do and stuff like that You know being open being being happy and we thought like okay. Could we do something like that? Well, honestly, we didn't do it like that it later came back to us that this is the connection We didn't see at the time, but it's really cool to say it like that So we thought like okay, let's change things and here we have a great enterprise The project that is going on we have a great, you know Place to try out these ideas they already exhausted everything they wanted to exhaust so there was no harm to be done So we said like okay, let's try and look at this as a Distributed environment so the company is distributed stuff So there is no up or down or who owns who but who owns which? Responsibility like a distributed system and you would need a little bit of orchestration Maybe a little bit of choreography to make it work So we split we said okay, we've got finances and they need information about how much something will cost In order to be able to make plans We've got tech guys and they would like to know what they can do to Now watch not save money, but make things better Make things more, you know useful for someone else to do more quality work So how do you come up with that and we started playing with the idea how we can? Pull some data from the system to be able to answer some of these questions now before I forget There is one thing overarching all this more important than anything that that you see currently and this is Company has a strategy This strategy should be the most important imperative for everyone in the company all these Distributed elements in the company should follow the strategy So if the company puts the strategy to save money, that's the task for engineers That's the task for finances if the company puts the strategy to become more innovative on the market Then that's the job for engineers and also for finances and they all think different when you put it in that well Perspective let's call it like that. So if we if we are going to push Towards you know doing the company strategy, then we can do something So first assumption if the company doesn't have the strategy all this doesn't work So I'm just talking a good good talk, but if the company has a strategy then this works and This is why you Will do something like this you want to build on the existing system You want to have all these savings that you can do you know It's it's really cool stuff to delete unused volumes or obsolete snapshots or shut down your instances over the weekends and all that stuff That's pretty regular stuff, and you want to keep it. That's cool But you want to do something more you want to build on that on top of that So this is not the talk that says Phenops is not good or current Phenops is broken. No, it's not It's just not fulfilling on its promise. It's fulfilling part of the promise the other part is missing So we we wanted to build on top of that the second stuff We want to chase the objectivity and this is important objectivity for different parts of the system mean different stuff like for finance Objectivity is how close I am to the financial goal I set or how How certain I am that with a certain amount of investment I will become more innovative company So how can I how can I know that if I'm going to pitch this idea to the GM that we should put some money into Engineers doing something and on the engineering side. This is much more. Well for us nuanced like it means If you if you recommend me something, please don't let it be switch from Intel to AMD please make it a little bit more usable for me and this is what we started working on and we worked and For us it was like decentralizing Phenops We ended up having a model like this. We will stop for a minute here So this this is a model We we've built over time and don't take a close look into it. It's small and it's maybe not readable Really, there will be slides sharing on but this the important stuff is this we started collecting data from AWS So we would collect all the pricing we can get from AWS because you can get it It's really cool and you collect all all the pricing for all the resources You want to you want to oversee you want to control and then we collected all the all the configuration parameters for all resources we are observing like Easy to instances or EBS volumes or ECS clusters or kubernetes cluster, whatever you've got at least in AWS It's the same stuff in every cloud So we would we would pull all the configuration data and then on top of that we would put pull a lot of metric data We wanted to discover what are the trends what are the patterns of use usage of these Resources, so if your easy to instance goes up and down or does something You know different or strange then this is a not not a normal easy to instance something is going on with it But if you have a steady flow of being below 10% of utilization Then you could do something about that so you can learn a lot from that data But you need to spend time looking into it and analyzing it and fighting trends and then since this is again a Decentralized system you need to have a feedback if you don't have a feedback then it's worthless So every time we would come up with an idea We would go and talk with teams and these were the funny talks like we would go and talk with teams That we feel might switch to using spot instances so spot instances are really fun because if you have a cloud native application and If you have an application that is able to survive the outage of a resource Then you really cool to use spot instances because AWS will take them away from you eventually and they will give you two minutes Warning and if you can survive that then your application is really cool now again quality matters So I as engineer and really interested in in stepping into this spot instance stuff not for the money But for the pride You know the price is different So I want to make my application cloud native and this is what I personally like to do So it's not about other engineers. I'm in that position So we build this and you and I have we've built this stuff and it's serverless And it uses spot instances and all that because we thought it's cool And it's good and it's good good stuff and it saves the money So again cultural change now the moment I started being motivated to do something in a different way Is the moment that you initiate the cultural change? If you are pushing someone just to switch from Intel to AMD because the report told them so this will never happen You will generate these reports you will send them to and you know what they say we let's say I Go and talk with the team and I explain to them all the benefits of some approach Whatever you say and they would say to me. Okay, I Don't have the money for that. I don't have the time for that I've got a full backlist of backlog of features to deliver until certain date So I've got SLAs to keep I've got clients to make happy So yes all that that that you bring to me is cool But this is not gonna happen and you know what I know what is my budget cap and I know I'm below So I'm generating more money for this company than I spent so I'm cool I would say I'm cool So you go back and you you know talk with someone else about that because cool idea, but not for us and That was the moment that we realized that we need to introduce a different side into the story finances So we had a connection with tech guys. We can talk with them. We can propose stuff We can discover ways in which they can improve but something was missing finance so we think this is This is a Again, don't look at it. It will come to you when we talk so finance guys So what what we said, okay? We've got a company strategy and let's assume that the company strategy save money Okay, so we generate a list of recommendations Real recommendation based on the the usage patterns We see we talk with teams and we establish what is realistic and what is not we feed back these Let's call them Findings into the system and now we start avoiding these obsolete recommendations and we leave out only the ones that could be used and That are aligned with company policy Let's say that the company policies delete all the snapshots older than 90 days and then you can implement that that's cool It's get it gets trickier when you say Downgrade on your instance type when your utilization level is below 20% for the last 30 days You know, that's trickier stuff, but you can work around that you can come up with all technical Recommendations and solutions you would like and we had real success in it teams were Responding good on certain recommendation types so we started with having three types like red umber and and the green ones and then we ended only with red like Things that are easy to do right now and then once we are we are done with that We will we will improve it but finances that was the the missing key So we went back to finances and we said okay, we've got attraction here We've got some data teams would like to implement these changes, but something is missing You're not following the company strategy. So what is the strategy of this company? Is it saving money cool? You know what we did we generated a list of recommendations We graded them we gave gave them height and weight and then every recommendation would be graded by the By the quality that brings into the game is it saving money? Is it innovation stuff? Is it beating competition? Is it becoming more serverless? It can be anything you think of like these rules you you come up with the rules that follow the company strategy and then we build a grading system and then we put It in the recommendation list and then all the recommendations that are in line with your grading system comes on top So every team would get first on top What is the most important for you and the least important stuff are below and then what you do?  Maybe some resources to do it for every task has these Lined up, you know for every task, you know, how many days you need to finish it What kind of disturbances it will it could introduce into the system? Is it SLAs is it that you're worried that your system will not be working for some time? How how much you need to test it before you make it real? But you know you know stuff about that and that's in line with strategy and then finances say okay We will postpone several features or the company will say and we will make space for this especially in this case, it was about gaining competitive advantage and we redesigned this system to be really really good about gaining competitive advantage about What it means to be competitive? What it means to be innovative for this company? It was going service cloud native as much as possible because they were large and they wanted to be able to ingest large number of customers in a small amount of time and it was about being cloud native and we started feeding these Info into this the engine we call it cloud fitness framework because it makes you fit in the cloud So cloud fitness framework would do this we would tell it fine Please find all the all the accounts all the projects in which you you've got a lot of easy to instances That cannot be good, you know You've got if you've got if you want to be cloud native and you've got a lot of easy to instances Something is wrong something might be wrong So it wasn't really about at the end of the day if I have to say it wasn't really about us Resolving anything it was about us cleaning up the fog the mist above the enterprise so you can see where you can improve and that was really helpful because this guidance Towards the you know Change was important for the company and then engineers could feel And we are yet to see this in in action for a longer period of time. They just start that so this is really fresh They just started using it but It should allow Engineers to have proper amount of time to sort out something properly because no one is messing up with how they do estimates Again, it's a part of agile process now I'm putting that into the backlog. I am assigning days on to it. I am Assigning complexity into it. Whatever I want to do. I assign it the finance guys and girls have the Responsibility of making this happen from the financial side of things So someone from the company if we are following the innovation path here, obviously Someone in the company needs to make this happen from the management side of things from the operational side of things Because if you don't have that if there is no support from the finance side of things, you can't make these things happen You will forever stay in this save money mode, which is fine, which is completely fine I would just like to go back to the first slide and and eliminate the whole Everything from that definition and stay with the end is in my definition of of phenox And this is ways to save money in the cloud, which is really cool if this is what you were after You know if you want to save the money in the cloud that that's that's something you should do Well, that's something you can do pretty pretty good right now without any fuss But if you want to be competitive and this is why I feel this this fits mostly with with enterprises because it things get much More complicated with enterprises. It's much in my opinion simpler to manage smaller organization because then you Usually have smaller number of people that are making decisions in this case It was like the huge pyramid of people that are involved in making any anything happened And it was it was a challenge and again if I if I if I can think back. I think the the Enabling companies to see what is happening and how they can improve was the real the real deal here Like the report that will give you ten Worst offenders in terms of how much money do you spend this will give you ten worst offenders in terms of How far away from serverless are you and this will tell you that there are projects that are not using any managed services You would be amazed so classic classic monolith running in the cloud using easy to and using MongoDB on top of easy to your own MongoDB and you you're pushing it like that and it brings money it We are not talking about bad engineering here. That's also important for me to say these are fine Engineering practices in play. This is just not serverless. This is just not played cloud native. That's a different topic But it's not about bad stuff happening in the cloud It's the stuff that happens that are not aligned with the company policy So there is nothing wrong with running MongoDB or SQL server on top of your easy to instance That's perfectly fine. It's even cheaper than if you would buy well cheaper initially Then if you would buy a managed SQL server Service it's a different topic. How much does it cost you to run it for five years and to make all these backup stuff And make sure that it's available all the time and all that stuff everything comes with a price So that that's that's a different topic. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how Different parts of your engineering stuff are aligned with your company strategy and how that hurts the company that was the the aim here and I I needed to thank to mr. Edwards The last time because this is really great book and again if you go to Vicky and if you just read through what that man did In his life, it's amazing. He was involved. He's an engineer. He's a mathematician. He's a statistician He's a scientist. He was engaged in breaking the Submarine problem in the world war two Engaged in terms of how Americans build ships to break through the barrier in the Atlantic He was engaged in reorganizing the way Toyota works in after the Second World War in Japan He did a lot of stuff, but most of the stuff was about how do you achieve quality in an organization? How do you motivate people to do better stuff? How do you motivate people to be part of the system not part for themselves? but willing to do something good for the benefit of the company and that was That was my talk for today. So I Understand that there's there's been a lot a lot of talk and that's so little of technical stuff There is something running behind this in AWS being serverless and all that stuff and maybe on some some next Conference that you will organize here. Unfortunately, not in January, but sometime I Will maybe write a paper that will be Fully technical about how we did what we did, but it was important for me to to tell the story This is a story how we went as engineers through these phenops For three years three years and it it's been fun now questions if you have any using that ridiculous redhead Mike So Lord have you tried to do some price estimates for the guide guidelines that you created, right? So if you have like one thing it's gonna Reduce the price by half this thing is expensive to implement But we'll have a huge implication on the price things like that Yes, absolutely as part of the process as I said we would gather AWS prices and we would gather configuration data data from the Resources and data trend usage trends as well But collecting AWS prices is important because if you feel that you could be let's say switch Dynamo DB from on demand to provision mode You would have to know the usage pattern of the Dynamo DB you have to know a lot about it So you pick 15 months. That's what cloud watch will give you So you would you would pull 15 months of data and you would go through the data and try to analyze Is it consistent usage at some level then you would go provisioned if it is Isn't consistent like in development environments or staging environments if it goes up and down up and down Then on demand is better even though on demand initially is Price here but being used like that. It's much more, you know, serverless So we would pull the prices for both cases We were first generating the price for a current use case then we would play with the data We would come up with a recommendation as we see like switch Please switch your Dynamo DB to on demand. This is the red stuff because it's easy You just go in and you change the the option the tool never changed anything because a lot of the teams did Infrastructure is code so you wouldn't like to mess up with people's code.  Let's make it You know the the full blown rule for everyone and then sometimes you see it doesn't work So you say okay like with Dynamo DB is especially interesting because sometimes you feel that switching to provision mode will save money But then something else would hamper you like There is a case in Dynamo DB where you you're really consistent But then sometime during the month you have a high peak and your provision even though you would put auto scaling in Cannot code with the spike and you break the system so you cannot do that the system needs to work So in these cases you need to stay on demand because on demand will give you this Scalability and then this is how you learn you put that back into the system and now from now on if we see these Spikes we don't recommend switching to on demand. Maybe we could recommend something else later on But at this point no so yes, we would pick up the prices We would generate two types of prices one for the current use case and the other one for something We feel is good to recommend and then we would be able to generate the savings And this is what finances like because then you can present all the teams running in and you can say okay This team if they would do something they could be saving this amount of money and this team not so much and You know then you pick your your favorites Then you don't bother with managing teams that that can save small amount of money and then Obviously the the the price of of the change comes into play It's a lot easier to switch the item or DB from one billing mode to another then push some someone to use spot instances That that's horrible. That's really horrible or push someone from using I don't know lambdas to containers You know lambdas are great until certain point and in this enterprise They were starting using serverless lambdas are great and then as the number of customers grew Exponentially the bill on AWS was even larger than that. It was horrible And it was like the the ultimate time to stop everything and to switch everything into containers And then the price came down, but then the amount of lambda calls that they made was so Unbelievably high that it was you know the price was was horrible So these kind of stuff you can you can see that and you can you you know You can pick your places for improvement. That was important. So but sorry the answer is yes We picked prices. We calculated the the savings We can make what kind of recommendations we can give to finance guys and this was important for them for that Everything that we did also was only CSVs. We didn't want to deal with any Fancy graphs or stuff like that finance guys already had those teams So they were able to print all these pretty graphs and pies and charts and all that stuff We would just give data and that was cool for us because you know as an engineer You like CSVs or something like that because I don't I don't care how that looks like That was Yes If you want to be innovative again with in line with company strategy if your strategy is to save money It's not really about architecture You know, it's about operations You're in a in a mode that runs and that that that gathers money and that's what all all you care about Architecture is important the moment you start thinking about being competitive being innovative. That's your that's your game if you're just in it for you know running the stuff and and being Moderately interested in making it into a better stuff then you don't care about architecture You just care that you've got a lot of engineers in line that everything works that operations are happy and you know You run the stuff you you run the the business that that's That's what it is and you as an engineer need We all need to find our peace with that because you know, it's our job If the company strategies make money, then we do that save money. We do that. That's our job part of our education at least mine was to Come up with optimal solutions as an engineer an optimal solution means that it needs to be Financially viable not something that is fancier that the greatest the latest and all this stuff But something that the late's good with company policy with the money The company is willing to invest the the amount of people we've got at disposal The the tech level of people that are able to pull the stuff off. So all that comes into play So that's our job us as engineers So if the company is not willing to innovate or you know Then you align your own principles with that and then you say I I'm okay with that or I'm not if I'm not I'm looking for another job if I am then I'm staying here and giving my best to fulfill the you know the job to To do the job Yeah Yeah Hi, thanks for the presentation. I had a question like so who's like as I understand you did some Consulting for external company right like my organization also has this Thing where we already are cloud native innovative and everything and the cost is just because it's AWS is too high So whose responsibility should it be to? To manage this cost because like I was looking at the teams are trying to over provision because they are they are wary of stuff They don't know stuff finance doesn't know how it works at all So should it be like a FinOps team now in every enterprise or what's your take on this? Thank you I have my own opinion on that. I think it's a matter of trust. I don't think it's anyone Responsibility to be responsible for the the overall situation in everyone pulls their own stuff in so us Talking about distributing the the the organization is exactly that Become accountable for what you can become accountable for so it doesn't make any sense for engineers to become Accountable for money-spending with accountable for you know tech Implementation if that tech implementation can be cheaper then we can be accountable So we are pushing something that is price here just because we can or just because we don't care Then it doesn't it doesn't make any sense But having these any organization actually that has these two silos will have this conflict The moment you split them up at least in this case So I'm talking from a use case perspective So the moment you split finances and tech guys and the moment you introduce someone as a you know Body in between or communication body. Yes, that's phenops. That was us in this case So we were able to pull the data about the usage and then we were able to say these Engineers might do better because this is not efficient enough. You could do better About something regardless of what there is let's say and we would be faced with the engineers and we would have meetings with them We call them SWOT engagements like SWOT teams, you know specialty So we would go and meet with them and we would say to these teams Hey, this is what we found about your project. So you could be better You could change this into this this and into this and most of the time these teams would get back to us saying we would We don't have the time we don't have the money We have the pressure of releasing a new Release and stuff like that. So it's look it's either option one or option two So you pick but it's not like that then you go and talk with finances and you say, okay We've talked with these guys. These are the outcomes. This is what we can give you We can show you and then if you know what they need to do to make something happen Then you can estimate the cost of the change and that's important for finances You say if they are going to become better Then they will need two months time to implement all these changes What this will bring to the table is this this and that or Everything can stay as it is but you need to find your piece with the current price tag. It's just like that. Okay It's off. So that you having someone like a mediator between these two parties helps someone who understands tech and business and this is in in this case, this was the nature of Phenops having engineers in disguise in Phenops role so being able to understand to explain to everyone. What is their role in the process? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense Yeah, you need Phenops Okay, the time is up if you want to ask me some other questions you can do it later on. Thank you