Hello. How you doing? Hold on one second. I'm trying to wrap some combos up so they can stop DMing me. Right. It's like everyone's trying to clear up things for the weekend or something. Yes, exactly. I think that's what's going on. They're just like, hey, how about this thing? Hey, how about this thing? Stop, please. Oh, that thing that I knew nothing about until just now. Oh, heaven. Thank you. I honestly think it's just going to be us today. That's cool. I'm with something low key. Yeah. Well, low key and recorded automatically on CNCF. So say hello to whoever. I'm always so curious, you know, so I like to drop Easter eggs sometimes and be like, hey, if you are listening, I'll give you some swag. She chops this up afterwards. Because we're, it should be not be, I kind of feel like we shouldn't be recording until we start 100% and Amy chops them up. I usually pick her afterwards and say, hey, there she is. I usually pick her afterwards like, hey, we had some tomfoolery conversation going on at the end there. She just chops that. Friends, how goes.  Well, I can upload it and we'll find out. We're like, well, okay. So anyway, hello, Steven. Welcome to co-chairing. Welcome. We need like more votes on that. I'll check. Yeah, I think it's two more. Yeah, who do we, I cannot. Go get some votes too if we need, who do we need. I think it's like, Chef Brewer, Katie. I can, I'll pin Katie right now. So let's see what I wanted to talk about. Let me first get the freaking agenda tab out. It's in one of these 800 tabs. Boom. Lazy Lincoln it for you. Yes, thank you. One thing I want to talk about was the survey slash focus groups. And I say slash because no one wants to fill out a survey. So I'm thinking like what I, what I initially, what we initially thought was half accurate, which was a, nobody's going to fill out a survey and B, we're probably going to have to go to a lot of them. And, and whether that slack channels, like Amy saying, whether it's community meetings, like, I kind of like, for some of the projects, especially those who are like in incubation nearing graduation kind of things, we should probably show up to their community meetings, like, hello. Because right now we have one response to the survey. And we sent it to what hundreds of maintainers. And the other thing is I also think. I mean, and maybe Amy can correct me, but I also think people don't read that maintainers list. So, because I like, I talked to so many people and they were all like, what survey, what email, what do you talk and like, I talked to Amy about some of them, like, hey, like, well, the Kubernetes side, but like some of the other projects were just kind of like, what? I mean, that's hard to say as far as like the, if they're not reading email, how will you know? Yeah, yeah. So that's, they're not here, please raise your hand. I'm just like, hey, it's legitimately the problem of if you're not here, please raise your hand. And so that's why I'm suggesting being able to say the Slack channels are a little bit more active and probably a place to be able to put that up. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's what we should do because I keep people keep pinging me about like oddly enough about maintainer circle. And I'm like, hey, we have a Slack channel now. Did you see that email? And it's just like, oh, no, that's why it was just like, emails. Yeah. It's like, oh, and then that's when they like go in and like, look, obviously, it's just like, obviously signs of the time, but now, now joining the maintainer circle. Like just all. Yeah. So do you see it? So it, so it depends though, right? It's because the defining what a maintainer is and who ends up on the official CNCF maintainers list, right? There's like a, so Karen, it's possible that you're not even on that list. No, I can double check this one. But the thing is, like, if you're listed as an owner in the maintainers file, then you should be on the list. So granted, it doesn't always happen because like, this is kind of a manual process. You have to tell us that you've updated the maintainers list, but I think the bigger challenge here is really that like, we're not getting the reach for the maintainers that we thought we were getting. Yeah, no. Yeah. And I think it's like, and this is what I've discovered in Kubernetes.  And it's like, that's why I keep like running into, I'm like, what do you mean you didn't know about TOC election? Like y'all are in other CNCF projects, a lot of these cases. And it's just like, oh, I didn't know we could vote for that. I thought that was just TOC. And it's just like, we are doing a really bad job in this project of communicating the like CNCF stuff too. You know what I mean? Like that's that like trying to like figure out how to improve that like maintainer comms with like, what would be better. Like that's the way to do things. Like literally, it's like, you have to go like, let's make sure that everyone is aware of how they're doing, being aware of what they're doing. I mean, Get a leaderboard with response times. Yeah, I know, right? We should actually shout out Brigade somewhere. Like, thanks for filling out the survey. I don't know something like one of, one of 500. We can, we can hit the, the, the tweeters and all that good stuff too. Yeah. Oh, you know what too, I need to. The other thing is I need y'all because I've done a glance over. I need to get y'all to review the blog that Julie wrote. Julie with CNCF. And then what we can do is release that, release the crack in there. So that's one. And then. Hold on. Community meetings. I really want to go to the Prometheus one. That's just me because I've never been to a Prometheus community meeting. So I feel like it would be good to reach out to them regardless because I want to get a couple of their takes. Slack channels. So you'll see me in a couple of the community meetings because I just have never been anyway and I want to go. All right. So next week I'm going to get on the horn. We're going to get on the horn with some slack channels. Community meetings.  So if y'all, let me hold on. Let me get the link to that too. It's in the contributor. So I'm going to get the link to that. And then I'm going to go to the strategy channel somewhere. Scrolling up. Hold on. Scroll, scroll. Scroll, scroll. Here it is. Nope. Not it. Well, we do kind of talk a lot. I didn't think we talked that much. Sorry. Sorry. I'm late. I closed my calendar tab and so wasn't paying attention. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. I don't know if Amy hadn't pinged me, I would have been like 1115 and I would have been waiting. Did I have a meeting? I had a surprise meeting land on top of my account. I was like, Oh, this will be my slot to like prep for the contributor strategy meeting and someone's like, Hey, I need to pull you in on something. Happy almost Friday. Yeah. I mean, my other point was I'm getting the sense that people have already started taking the holiday. So yeah, exactly like this. So like, yes, I totally agree. We should work on being able to get like the word out a little bit more, but I think people just stopped looking at email and general anything right now. Oh, I'm not planning on doing it today. Okay. Yeah, I'm talking about next week. Yeah. And I mean, we released it. Over a week ago, like a week and a half ago. And still only have one response. So that's why I'm like, I think we should just go to the focus group, the focus group method at this point and ping people in. Slack. And just do it verbally. And I can't find the freaking link. I'm wondering if I have no idea. I'm searching for Julie. Josh, do you have it handy? It's the blog post that Julie wrote it like went away. Oh my. Oh, I never saw the blog post. It was, it was in the contributor strategy. Put on. Did she. Are you sure that it actually went out? No, it's she sent it to us to review. It's in your DMs as well as in the contributor strategy. Slack channel. Okay. Put on. Damn it. Yeah, I don't know where that actually, you know what? I know where it is because I actually was organized. Found it. It's an all it's actually. In the chat. Awesome. Thank you. And I'll link that to the doc as well. All right. So yeah, that's something we absolutely have to review. And if we could, let's try to review that today. And then we can tell Julie to pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever time is appropriate next week, whatever best blog time. So yeah, if y'all could. And then we're pretty much done with the outreach portion. All right. You want to explicitly list out any, like. Projects to want to reach out to you. If you think that's good. Okay. I mean, I can obviously reach out to all of the projects I'm already jeoparding. Yeah. Yeah. And then maybe we'll see if that's like enough to get started or, I don't know. Yeah. We just need some data to get started. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although. At this point, there are enough Americans on those projects that I'm going to want to wait until next week to reach out to them. Oh yeah. No, we're not doing any more reach outs. We're just saying that neck. This is us planning for next week's reach outs. Okay. So, um, Josh, you have the next item, which is governance doodle. Yeah. Um, well, so that's actually already been chosen. Um, all five people who responded are able to make 10 a.m. Pacific on Tuesdays. So that is the new meeting time. So, I mean, so here's the, the problem. Uh, did we, oh, there was an email out for it, right? Yes. Okay. Email went out of the list. I need to put an email in the list saying that's the new meeting time. So, I mean, one, one thing about it is like their last, I checked there, maybe like 17, 19 people on that list. Um, they're sending out a doodle and not getting enough people. Um, because like. The people who responded to the people who have actually shown up for governance meetings in the past, except for Terrence. So, so I say that to say. Are we limiting our scope to the people that have been showing up and not giving people who have, who would potentially want to show up to governance meeting and opportunity to the, I guess I'm more concerned with the people who have already contributed than the people who might contribute, but might not, if you follow me. I had a lot of people express interest and never show up for anything. Well, I totally feel that like if I'm, if I'm doodling, I'll prioritize the times that the maintainers chose, right? There are some project owners or something like that. All I'm saying is like, I think the scope, I think where we sent it is a little short. It's not enough people on those lists. Um, if they don't show up, if like, if it's still the same time and they don't show up, then fine, but, um, that's just, just a passerby thought. Suggestion. We let this hold through this summer. Um, and see what kind of frankly, attendance you get, Josh. And then in September, um, we can revisit. As far as like, if this time is actually working. Yeah, gives us like two months. Yeah, that's fine. Um, my, yeah, my only worry is that like, especially because there are not a lot of people on the main, on the, on the, um, Contribstrat mailing list right now. And we're talking about people not really reading their emails anyway. Um, are we, are we not giving ourselves an opportunity to have more people in that, that working group is what I was thinking about. That's why I'm like stressing our outreach. Like, and that's why I'm like, we actually, I'm going to have to like get face to face and people's like, like in their, in their project. What's up? Hi. Exactly. Like I was saying. Yeah. I'm like, Hey, how are you? Like we are here directly. Hello. Like, I really think that like, unfortunately, like, I don't like that. I do like it, but obviously not cause it's 50 projects and we're only so many humans. But life. Yeah. I mean, it's, I think it's convincing. I mean, the, you know, the, the hope is that the blog posts will do some of that. And, you know, our continued, um, Twittering and jumping around our respective projects will, we'll say like, Hey, come to this, right? Because we do want it to be, um, ideally it's more, um, it's more pole polling data than, um, than coming in and, and jumping from project to project. Right. People should eventually see this as a place to go for things. Um, as opposed to, as opposed to a place that will track you down. Cause that's not sustainable for us. Right. That's why I'm like, I, that's why I want to do that initial like, hello, you're, you may not see me here again. All right. Um, so what it's 10 a.m. Tuesday, I'm taking notes 10 a.m. Tuesday. Is it in bi-weekly Tuesday? Josh. Uh, yes. Okay. Yeah. Already on the calendars. Yeah. Starting with the next meeting on July 7th. Hey. All right. And then the next item on the agenda was a charter changes. It's not something we necessarily need to dive in deep here. Um, but I'm just, I just put it as an issue. Um, just so that we can remember some of this stuff. Cause right now our charter is pretty much the bootstrap charter. And we've pretty much graduated from most of those phases. So, and most of the road map that's in the charter is done. Um, So either. Making some other new roadmap or making it more full, making it more full charter now that we know a little bit more about what the hell's going on here. I think. Sorry about that. Um, I'm just not sure what's going on. I think the charter is mostly. Carolyn also wanted to bundle in the new chair change as well. So. If there's any other charter changes that y'all suggest. Are the chairs explicitly listed in the charter? Um, Cause I don't think they should be. Or it needs to be rather some gaps on that side as well as I of SOD listed as one of our TOC liaisons. We're not listed in the TOC repo at all. Well, rather we don't have our own page thing, right? We are listed on the readme, but not as a separate readme that I guess would link out to our repo or something. All right, yeah, we are, hold on. Yeah, we are in the charter. And I think the reason why we did that is because that's what the other CNCF projects do. Gotcha. What are your concerns with that? Yeah, I don't have super strong opinions. I think that just having one less place to change, like when we do a charter update in Kubernetes, say, like we don't look at updating chairs or include chairs in the charter. It's just, yeah, from an approval side, not having to look at chairs and just having them, if they're listed in one place, then we only have to update them in one place. It's more of a laziness factor than it is a charter specific factor. And I don't think I can share my screen. I'm gonna try right now. That's what my confused face is for. Let's try it. Nope, my MacBook's locked down. Sorry, MacBook, sorry. Sorry, security, privacy at Apple, sorry. All right, so I know I was just gonna do a quick boardwalk. Any other comments about charter, Josh? Do you feel like you have anything else that you want to do charter changes for outside of the roadmap-y stuff? No, not really. Since we found out that chairs actually have to be approved by the TOC, there's, it would be nice to have a line about that in the charter, so it's explicit, to say, hey, chairs are approved by the TOC. I mean, I know that's in the TOC documentation, but it's hard to find. Yeah, and further for the TOC documentation, what it mentions is an election to appoint chairs. Basically, it sounds like it reads for the instantiation of a SIG, not necessarily for its continuing operations. So I think we should help to clarify that too. Okay, I just put that in the issue. All right. So we'll get to charter changes next week as well. And then Amy, as far as charter changes go, once we've submitted the PR, TOC will need to vote on that too, correct? I'm not sure, I need to go back and look. Okay, I mean we're not- So I'll wait for the PR to come through, and then I'll work to be able to clarify this. Actually, this would be a lovely thing to be able to put into your Tuesday slides. Yeah. Yay. Yeah. So speaking of probably our most important point that is not on the agenda yet is that we have a meeting on Tuesday with the TOC, and we have to do the presentation for it. So- Thank you, Amy. One slide, you'll be fine. We're reminding us. Yeah, yeah, no, it's only one slide. One slide, you'll be fine. It's definitely not that too serious. So we need chair vote on there. We need do we do charter vote question marks? What else should we be updating with TOC on Monday? Or Tuesday? Next step is for whatever working groups we have spun up already. So mention, I think it's worth mentioning the new time for the governance sub-project, the that we're going forward. Yeah, that we're going to pump the blog at some point, the blog post at some point, and then also that the maintainer circle will be coming soon, DM. I've said that five times already.  We're worth repeating. I mean, honestly, I think specifically for that one that trying to do outreach across, like we said it already, but trying to do outreach across multiple projects, we have to make sure that people are aware that we exist and can come to us. So we aren't doing consistently trying to reach across multiple projects. All right. Karen, did you go to the last? Oh God, is it already Friday? Contributor growth meeting. Did you? I had a, I think it was during like camp, I made it so it was complicated. Okay, have you been to any because I have not and that's why as I've had a time conflict. What's, what do y'all, tell me about what are y'all working on in there? Cause I want to add that to the TOC thing as well. Um, I think there's like templates. Yeah, for like, like contributor guides and. Okay, cool. Thank you. And then I think as of right now, we are reconsidering our meeting time. So I don't know if he's settled on it yet, but there's a schedule. Yeah. Time and calendar. Stop. No, I'm just kidding. And we'll write that. We're trying to get you to come. I just said templates coming along, contributor guide, each E to L. And then that we're also putting together a template repo, like some kind of boiler plate, contributor, boiler plate repo. Okay, cool. Um, and then Josh, what did you, outside of like the new governance sub time, a time, what did you want to update for governance? I, so next meeting we're going to be talking about the remaining sort of governance documentation, which is the main product of the governance WG that we need to do and trying to hammer that out so that people can get working on individual pieces of it. And the other thing is, this is important, the multi-organization requirement for graduated projects is going to be one of the main agenda topics at the next TOC meeting. So that's continued to be a major item of discussion. And it's going up to the TOC and when the TOC makes final decisions, it'll be our job to actually document those and then write advice to the projects on how to fulfill the requirement. So question, is there, is there project onboarding related things that you have listed already? Yeah, if, hold on, let me, let me paste the outline that I have currently as a Google doc. Okay. I say that because now becoming a maintainer of DEX and having that moving into the CNCF and doing the process right now. So it'd be good to kind of like look at it with beginner eyes. Yeah. And it would be lovely if you can actually, because like part of it is, basically I was thinking of, well, hold on, let me find the doc. Because I have it divided out into sort of two major divisions, right? There's the stuff around the requirements and then there's the stuff that's general governance advice aside from the requirements. And, sorry, Google docs. The, and, you know, and so one of the things I know that we have been sorely missing is a document that says, so you want to become a sandbox project. Here's all the things that you need and how to actually do them. Because I'm going through this with some of Red Hat Sandbox projects. Later in. And, if you need anything, we can talk about like the sandbox stuff, like, you know, on a future meeting with me. Yeah. Well, some of it, like, one of the sore points is roadmap because what is a roadmap depends on which TOC member you ask currently. So that's something that I think we're going to need to write out, take to the TOC, have the TOC approve it because there has been differences of opinion there and it has led to projects having to rewrite things several times. I look forward to you all fixing this. Yes. And I think we're going to come across a lot of those where we're going to need that feedback loop with the TOC where we do a, hey, this is what looks sensible to us based on the existing written requirements. Yeah, like, is this crazy? Yeah, can you please approve or revise this so that the projects have detailed written requirements and they're not guessing on what they need to provide because that's the situation right now. And totally agreed that it being confusing and having to rewrite it multiple times is not great. So for me, on the sandbox level, you know, what I'm thinking about is the first set of stuff that I'm thinking about is what's the baseline requirement for us to be considered to be in compliance as a sandbox CNCF project?  And then how do we start looking ahead? Like what does it look like to get out of the sandbox and into incubation, right? And then drawing. Yeah. Interesting to see what a project plan looks like for that across a generic project plan, I guess, right? Yeah, and I really do want to get the sense of an idea of sort of progressive maturity because for example, right now in the sandbox requirements, it says you must have governance documentation. But it doesn't really say what that consists of and then it doesn't add any requirements aside from multi-organizational for graduated. And I really think there should be a sort of progressive maturity here, right? Because I think for incubating projects, it should be a requirement of, hey, you just have to have some documentation for how governance actually works and that structure needs to be theoretically open. Whereas for graduated, there should be a lot more scaffolding for how people progress to governance roles. So yeah, so I think that one part of that because the meaning that I was in right before this is later Karen is around sustainability, right? Because we often are kind of running at standing up these projects and then have to get to the point where we have to pull back and look at the way we do certain things. And if that's sustainable, like if you think about the way we do reviews in GitHub or the way that box work and yada, yada, yada, right? And like how do we get people looking at that stuff earlier, right? So like for DEX, it's like, okay, well, I know we need a website. We don't have a website right now. I know that there are a hundred issues or something and a few pull requests in there that need to be triaged. Like how do we appropriately do triage? Like how do we make sure that a project as they're maturing all of the process isn't strictly on the maintainers, right? How do we build things in place to make sure that they don't have to be the only ones doing a certain? Yeah, well, and one of the things that already came up in last week's governance meeting was the suggestion and we'll propose this for graduated projects that at least at the graduated level, the project should have some kind of community manager. Whether that's a staff member assigned by one of the sponsorship companies or somebody from the community or something else, but there actually needs to be a community manager role at the level of graduated project because otherwise, even if the project's in great shape at the time that they're promoted to graduated, they're not necessarily gonna stay that way. Right, that's a good point, yeah. The, and that might lead to a CNCF program where if a project is too distributed among various sponsors for anybody to assign one staff member that maybe they pay the CNCF to have a community manager. But the, I think it's something that a lot of projects haven't really thought about. So that's, yeah, and I'll keep down. Because they're not used because they come from teams who are not used to having access to community managers. And so it's just not something they even think to ask for. Yeah, when you were saying that, it got me thinking about like what does a program for that look like? And then a program of those programs, right? So if there are program managers, community managers within each of those. And I mean, maybe this is exactly what we're talking about like with maintainer circle, right?  And maybe they're the ones who coordinate giving updates to the CNCF based on project status or something, right? So like that's kind of how I'm operating for DeX right now, right? Yeah, I mean, it has to be staged because like sandbox projects as a rule are not gonna have community managers unless they're only in the sandbox because, I mean, there are some larger, better funded projects but I can tell you for a lot of the sandbox projects I deal with, like their total engineering staff is three people. And so they're just not gonna have a community manager person. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's really like bolstering. I would see like the first step bolstering maintainership, right? Providing means of, because there are lots of things to do on that list of onboarding for the CNCF but probably the biggest one is like, do we know who adopts our project today? And do we know like, because those are ideal opportunities to bring in maintainers, right? And do we know who'd be willing to be a maintainer? Do we know what's required? Because once you start getting to that larger project level, I mean, we deal with it in Kubernetes, right?  Who's a prover who can be that stuff? Do we understand a clear path to get to that point, right? So establishing that stuff early on is I think is really important. Each, I wanted to actually, I'm actually thinking about doing a manifesto. Ooh. My first one in my life. Hey. Like, and the funny thing is now that I'm not a goob, I'm like, ready to do the manifesto and goob is all about the manifesto. So I'm just like, life. It's all timing, right? You know, when it's right, it's right. All right, I also have officially wrangled in Karen to help out with maintainer circle too. I told her that one of my biggest problems right now is we have some of the content, we have the goals, we know what we wanna do. My blocker right now is that I don't want it to be another Zoom meeting. Like, but at the same time, like maybe our first one should just be like that to get us off the ground. But anyway, Karen's really good at helping out with, like, obviously like the camp cloud native, like just being a little bit more creative on the like meeting side. So I asked her. Nice in general. Yeah, I mean, like coordinating. Creative here because I can always run a Suborin Zoom meeting. Like I can do that right now and like whip us up an inclusive language Zoom meeting. But like me. No, I really, I really don't want. And I think I probably speak for a lot of people saying that like another meeting is not to play. Another meeting that doesn't like derive the right amount of values is not a good plan. I think that what I would like to see out of the maintainer circle is that you just, you feel it. Like you feel supported, right? And that doesn't need to be on a meeting. I don't think that trying to get all of our maintainers in a room on Zoom is going to be effective anyway, right? But I want you to feel that presence. Know that you have people that you can reach out to to bounce ideas off of. So I think that maybe even as the first start is getting more people on that mailing list, right? Because if it's only like 17 to 20 people right now, we can do better, right? We can, so that could be a first start. And if we're just picking ideas around on the mailing list to start, SIGARCH has an idea where the way they run their meetings is essentially you don't get onto the agenda unless you've discussed it on the mailing list first, right? And it's a little bit like, for SIG release, my meetings are a little bit more loosey-goosey. Freeform, there are a few top level agenda items, but we can talk about literally anything during those. But I do like on the architecture side, like you're forced to have a deep discussion about some of the stuff before we say, all right, let's bring it to a meeting and make a decision, right? So we could... Smaller groups, like under 20 people, and then they would just like fill up, but like, kind of like what we do for the chairs and tech leads where there's the same theme each month. Obviously there's gonna be different conversations based on the different people there, but we're all talking about similar things. So like for instance, July, if it wasn't July already, July we could do like 10 mini-maintainer circles on inclusive language, but we give them all the same materials and then we kind of somehow like combo all of that knowledge in like a place.  But some kind of way for us to do this smaller chunk thing, because I like what you're saying, I don't want 100 people to show up to this Zoom meeting. And honestly, we could probably get over 50, honestly. Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. Across all of these projects, like if we're actually pumping this stuff everywhere, yeah, we could end up with a bunch of people on these. So for me, ultimately, I would love to be able to, to this mini-maintainer thing, I would love to be able to like review a doc and then be like, okay, done. That's the aggregate of those 10 conversations or something, right? And then produce the larger, you know, the top level doc to say like, okay, well, this is our policy for that thing. So I mean, you look at naming and so for working group naming, which for people on the recording, that's just formed on the, for as one of the Kubernetes working groups that's dedicated towards, you know, determining what inclusive language looks like in the project and moving, moving towards eliminating some of the non-inclusive language that may be in the project today. The, we made a strategic choice to work with the people that we're working with right now. So the, you know, if you look at the makeup of the chair section, right? You've got, you've got representation from a contributor experience and docs as well as the COC or the COCC, Code of Conduct Committee. And, but also looking deeper at that, you've got representation on the LF and the CNCF level, right? So the idea with Celeste and Zach was to also work on doing this on the CNCF level. So that it's not just information that we produce as a project that can potentially be used for CNCF projects, but more so dog-fooding and information that can be used as a template to define policy on the CNCF level that is enforceable across all projects, right? So we're trying to think bigger there. So definitely getting maintainer ideas. I saw that Derek had mentioned, you know, Red Hat has a doc out about inclusive language. I think Google has one too. But like, yeah, getting everyone, getting everyone grouped together and figuring out how to do this as a team makes a lot of sense. All right. So I feel like a good goal for us would be to launch in August. It would have been really great to launch around KubeCon, but like, I don't, like, now we have- Which what? Well, I mean August, KubeCon, the Europe slash August. But we don't really have any- Yeah. How we could still do this without being on the schedule. Well, I think that, you know, as long as it's happening in the background and we're still pushing it, then it's fine. If we want to say that it's a post-KubeCon launch, I'm just trying to think of, like, from the perspective of people that might be working on something for KubeCon or pushing towards KubeCon, I don't want to add another task to their list. I know that, like, keynote prep is in the works for me and people are starting to, like, get their deadlines for recording talks for KubeCon. And, yeah, so I think a few things going on where we don't, we shouldn't necessarily add to people's plates, but I do think that it does give us an opportunity to get the message out. We just have to think about how to do that in a, I don't know, in a nice way. Yeah. I definitely want to take advantage of... Kind of a critical mass of a con. Could Nancy add something about the maintainer circle in her comms about the intros and stuff for the community groups? Yeah, probably.  Yeah, this could even be slipped into keynote as project updates or something like that, right? Just we've, we can, I think we can figure out a clever way to do it. Let's, let's chat more secretly later. All right. Well, did anybody else, anything else to talk about today? I mean, we definitely have at least a 10 minute update for TOC, so as long as we have 10 minutes, then we're fine. Oh, actually, I did want to say one thing, and I do need eyeballs on this one. This is about, I think, Q-Bedge. Okay. Folks pinged me, and where is it? I'm going back to my Slack. He's like, Q-Bedge, is that the right one? Am I saying the right one? There's too many cubes, y'all. Yeah, Q-Bedge. Yeah, Q-Bedge. I'm still waiting for Q-Bert to be a project. Yeah, Q-Bedge. Weekend week in training. I don't know what it'll do, but it should make a loud clunk whenever you shut it down. It's like, I could have sworn I'd turned my speakers off, and yet, Q-Bert. So they made references in their due diligence that the community is growing, and people pinged me and said, what do you think about this group? What do you think about their contributor strategy? And I have not read it. So, and then Josh, if you want to just take a brief look at their governance, we don't need to give some huge due diligence. We weren't asked for that. It was just a glance over kind of thing. I don't think we should give due diligence unless the TOC officially asks us for due diligence, but at the same time, I feel like we can say, hey, good job, or hey, why are you doing it this way? I would say we could, is a person a maintainer? Or they just passerby of Q-Bedge? Like what's the status? It was a passerby, and then it was somebody on TOC. It was a passerby TOC comment. It wasn't a, that's what I'm saying. And I told them specifically, hey, you should get TOC to tell us these things officially. So, this is not an official TOC ask. This is someone on TOC that was a little confused. Check it out. Yeah, I would love to see the doc. It would be cool if eventually we got to a place where, because for me, we're not TOC, but for me, I see this as almost like a presentation, right? Like, come to one of our meetings, like we block out some time, come to one of our meetings and check out, and talk to us a little bit about what you're doing. And maybe the folks in the room can get ideas, and maybe that becomes something, part of something official that we do. Right, and I think the concern that a lot of folks had in the beginning, what we were talking about when we were trying to form our charter, is that we didn't want to do it for a million projects, or that we just don't have the people yet for a million projects, kind of thing. Yeah, so staring at this really quickly, I mean, I think about this, I'm looking at this issue, and I'm looking at thinking about the way we do onboarding for like release managers or something, right? And they have an onboarding doc now for onboarding issue template, I think, for Sandbox projects and so on and so forth. But I want that to be a checkbox thing, right? Like what does consideration for incubation look like? Cause it's great to read stuff, but it's even better to be able to make the stuff that you're reading actionable.  And it makes you feel like you're making progress across it. So let's see. Some of these graphs that they give are just like, who cares? Sorry, Cube Edge. And that's why I'm like, I don't know if that's TOC telling them that they need these certain graphs, but like, why wouldn't you care about commits per repo? I think they're strictly trying to show activity, right? Because one of the expectations is that there's consistent activity across time. But show that in 800 million different ways, though. You know what I mean? It's like... Well, but again, this is one of the problems with not having detailed written requirements. As in the TOC has said, you must show activity and they haven't said what specific metrics will fulfill that. And so the people who are proposing these just say, well, I'm going to give you a blizzard of every measure of activity we have and you can pick out what it is you want to see. Like, I don't want... Sorry, no, no, go for it. There you go. Okay, all right. I don't want a project to have to do that, right? Like we provide... Yeah, it should be, again, to Josh's point, like if you give me a requirement and you don't tell me exactly how to do it, I'm going to do one of two things. I'm going to ask you exactly to do it and if we don't have the time to do that, I'm going to bring you my interpretation of your ask, right? So one, to have a very clear ask about how to do these things or two, make it not even necessary for you to need to do those things, right? We have dev stats, right? That's dev, like what I'm seeing is a stripped down, stripped down JPEG of what could be that doesn't work for sandbox proposals though because those projects are not in dev stats yet. Gotcha. So are they not allowed to be in dev stats or are they not in dev stats? Well, for any project to be added to dev stats, that's a manual step by a CNCF staffer, so it's not going to happen until they are already accepted. Okay, so I mean, they are... But this is due diligence for Q-Bedges are already a CNCF project, right? Yeah, so if you're already a CNCF project, then that totally works. Anything sandbox on up should be already in dev stats. Right, right. So for sandbox and low, well, for pre-sandbox, right, then the requirement is whatever it is. It's much lower and I don't think we need to prove any contribution. What I'm saying is for a CNCF project, we should leverage the resources that we have. So if we ask people for contributions, it should be appointing someone to a dev stats dashboard. Well, honestly, we shouldn't even have to ask them to do anything, right? If dev stats is there, the SIG should already know that, right? Q-Bedges wants to review. I'm going to click on their dev stats. That's what I mean, yeah, yeah. This should not be work, additional work. Well, what I wanted to say too is like, honestly, they're interpreting this as this, right? Like, this meaning the CNCF requirements is this. And my thing is I'm kind of okay with that as long as they tell us why. Like, why is this chart important to you? Like, what is this showing me? It's almost like a, if you're going to give us a chart, then at least say, why is this important? Why is this impactful? Why is this, you know what I mean? Like kind of like, I mean, to be fair, if you look at the contributor commits thing immediately above it that says like, demonstrate a substantial ongoing flow of commits and merge contributions, and then they show the chart.  I didn't see that one. I saw... And are you, you're looking at the DD doc? Yep, and I'm seeing... Go to page layer, go to page seven. Oh, I'm actually, I'm doing line by line. Hold on, I was just doing the rich diff. Wait, okay. So I was looking at QBedges general document. Oh, here it is. Got it. Yeah, like so it says, we are seeing a consistent stream of improvements and features from the maintainers in the community. Oh, sorry. You know what I'm looking at? I'm looking at, if you scroll to the bottom, there's a DD doc. Oh, yeah. I didn't see that one. Yeah. I thought this was, I actually thought this was an issue, not a PR, but the DD doc is stronger. Okay, yeah. See, I was looking at the line by line PR. That's why I was just... That's why I'm like, it would be, because like they kind of set it in their PR where it was like, yeah, look, this shows maintainer improvement. Yeah. But it's still kind of like, but what does that mean though? You know? So hold on, let me, I'm gonna read the DD right now. I mean, it's 14 pages. Oh, wow. So maybe not what we're waiting for. But I mean, the general idea is like, this is something that we can definitely take a look at and see if, you know, does this... I figure if they're doing a DD, it's because someone has looked over this and given them a template of some sort. Right. I think if you consider the, like submitting a sandbox proposal itself, right? And trying to figure out what you need to put in there. Like they give you an idea, but I think that what we initially wrote up for like DEX was kind of off the cuff, right? So yeah, short version, I agree. So... I feel dumb right now, I'm sorry. Hold on, that was probably not the right word I should use either. For this, the word dot, or if God, not word dot, the Google doc that I'm looking for right now. Is this the template that all the due diligence get? This is a template. I have a feeling because they've got, they've got like points, right? CNCF graduation criteria specifies point and then cube edge answer, right? Yeah. I didn't know if this was, I can ask her obviously, but I didn't know if this was like Elena's document. Like I didn't know if this is like a TOC document. That's what I was thinking. Well, it's being, it looks like it's being run by Elena as the...  Because for example, if it's a SIG networking review, there's a bunch of stuff they want to know about how it integrates with other network layers of cloud native networks that is not going to be present for other kinds of projects. Yeah, so look, they do that. Yeah, now I'm on the page. I think are you on the same page, the open governance is that where you were looking at? Yeah. And I was actually poking around their repo and honestly, I would green light them on governance based on looking at their repo. They have pretty clearly documented governance and from what I can see that has resulted in vendor independent running of the project. So, I mean, I could delve into it some more to see if there's sort of a hidden imbalance, but I don't know that's enough reason to block it. Yeah, I mean, this just... Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, so just the speed read of the DD, like, it looks pretty strong. Yeah. That's why I'm thinking that too. It might be nice for one of us to comment on the issue too and say that like... Looks dope. Like, it's not like we don't say, hey, this is some official thing, but we've just done a glance over and like, hey, that's actually a really good idea. Like, we'll say, hey, we've done a glance over, but if y'all wanna come and give us a little update or a presentation on what y'all are doing, that we would be totally down for that. You know what I mean? Kind of saying like, hey, we've done a glance over, but if you wanna come talk to us more about contributor strategy and or governance topics, we'd love to hear how y'all are running it. You know? I mean, I would love to do something almost more asynchronous, right? Like if we can... And not from the perspective of like, what can y'all present to us, but maybe even like, what can we do to help you, right? So our VP of engineering has a forever email that he sends, like there's a feedback form included, right at the bottom in his signature, right? And he's like, if you ever wanna chat with me, or you wanna submit anonymous feedback about how we're doing stuff, you can just submit it, right? So I think a feedback form could be interesting for like, what would you fix about this process, right? Are you having a good time trying to submit for incubation? Like where are the gaps, right? And then doing a comparison across multiple submitters, whether it's in the form of feedback, feedback, quick sheet or full-on survey, right? I ultimately, I just wanna make sure that we are, like do we need to pull them in for a presentation? I know I mentioned presentation earlier. No, I'm saying that as like an option to them of like, it doesn't need to be like, I'm saying like, hey, if you wanna come, give us like a presentation or if you wanna come talk to us or ask us a question, like just kind of opening the door of like, we're here and we wanna know more about you and if you wanna know more about us kind of thing. So just kind of like a friendly olive branch. But yeah, I mean, I'm looking at it. I don't, like I haven't seen one flag at all. And my, but my other thing is too, like, how do we really know though? Like obviously, you know, we've got, and we're like so close to time, I'm sorry. Like obviously we've got this block of things, like, hey, they've got 14 maintainers and yeah, we can go and look at that. But like, you really don't know about like, what's going on until you're like, legit in the project learning. Like, so like even on the Kubernetes side, sometimes it's hard to see like, oh, we've got blockers in certain areas and you don't necessarily see that from like a blurb of me talking about it, you know? And it's also like, it's also size overall too, right? Cause if you look at, you look at Kubernetes compared to like maybe any other project and the CNCF, right? It's like, we've got macro and micro issues, right? So if you touch something on the sub project level, if you touch something on the working group or SIG level, might be very different than your consideration if you were touching something as a steering member, right? Looking at how all of these things interconnect, right? You might not necessarily be doing that. So I think like someone's ingress point to your project is important too, right? And if the project is like a singular repo, then it's fairly easy to craft that experience, right? But for Kubernetes where we're like 200 repos or something, 200 plus repos maybe even, it's a little trickier to like, make sure that that's a good experience for everyone, assuming that they, if they don't have the right pointers to canonical docs like K-Community, right? Yep, sure or false? You know what? What? I don't think it's the case of not being open, but I'm actually looking at, because we have dev stats, that Q-Bedge definitely has an issue with being dominated by who away in terms of who's writing the actual code. Are we looking at commits or contributions? And also we, I don't think we need to get into this now or anything. Yeah.


For many war-entorned countries, the arrival of the coronavirus has been slow. But now it's spreading in Gaza, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq and beyond. How can people in these fragile countries take preventative measures? How can you social distance yourself in an overcrowded camp? How can you wash your hands regularly when there is no running water, let alone soap or sanitizer? If corona can overwhelm well-equipped, well-functioning hospitals in Europe, what happens in Yemen where half the healthcare facilities are not functioning or Somalia where there are nine hospital beds for every 10,000 people? But it's not hopeless. We have four other outbreaks, cholera, Ebola, scabies and tuberculosis. We know that rapid action can help avert the worst. When cholera first hit Yemen, more than one million people were affected. The worst outbreak in recorded history. And cholera, unlike corona, can kill in a matter of hours through extreme dehydration. We saved lives by providing clean water, improving sanitation and supporting hospitals with essential medicines. Now, to fight corona, we are working hard in countries like Syria to ensure clean water is accessible, that sanitation systems are functioning and soap is in all our eight packages. To fight Ebola, which at times had a death rate of 50%, prevention was essential. Congolese Red Cross teams went door-to-door telling families how Ebola spreads and work with community elders and religious leaders to talk about the symptoms and the importance of early treatment. Mids were exposed. Truths were told. Now, we're working with our Red Cross and Red Crossin volunteers across the world to share accurate information about how to limit the coronavirus. When doctors and nurses get sick, people stop trusting hospitals. During the Ebola crisis, many pregnant women risked home births. Maternal fatalities surged. Today, to protect healthcare workers battling corona, we're providing face masks, aprons and gloves. We also know that triaging patients is very important to limit viruses. In the Democratic Republic of Congo and Somalia, we're helping hospitals to separate confirmed corona patients from suspected cases and put in place isolation facilities. We know from our work in prisons, screening is vital to control tuberculosis, a highly infectious, often deadly disease which can even be multi-drug resistant. We work with authorities to disinfect detention centers and medically screen new arrivals and identify and treat those infected with tuberculosis. And it is essential that hand-washing stations are available for all, guards and detainees. These measures are effective for tuberculosis and they can help limit corona. Syria, Gaza and South Sudan have closed their schools. Iraq has a nationwide curfew. In Yemen, ports are closed and new arrivals tested for the virus. These fragile countries are taking action. So will we. In prisons, refugee camps, damaged hospitals, we will help.


Thank you for staying with us on Y254 News and if you're joining us right now tonight we're talking about wellness adventures. You can be part of our conversation by sharing your views and comments on our social media platforms that is on Twitter at Y254Channel, hashtag Y254News and on Facebook at Y254Channel. So thank you very much Nick for finding the time to come and share the information or the content that you have on wellness adventures. And my first question is going to be for people out there, as I said as I was starting the bulletin, there are people I interacted with during the day in the office and they literally had no idea of what wellness adventures is. So would you kindly briefly tell our viewers what is wellness adventures and what does it entail? All right thank you so much. Now wellness and adventure, they are two different things but in one. So wellness is about your state being, it's about your health, about what you do. Like from morning to evening it revolves around your health, I mean your health. That is a wellness. In wellness we have you know a positive mind in terms of ensuring you stay positive, eating healthy, ensuring you rest, this kind of stuff. Then adventure it is the outdoor. So when we talk about wellness adventure we are combining two outdoor activities plus you as an individual. So how are they coming in? Since now we are living at a time when we are experiencing a lot of challenges in terms of health. So we are hitting the gym every other day which is very positive but now the outdoor happens to be giving us more than what we are having in a gym setting. Number two the terrain in the outdoor activities they're not the same. So you don't expect a similar activity or a challenge compared to what you did last time. Now that is what makes the difference. So wellness adventure is about taking fitness activities out or outside. Okay so what would you say helps you understand the demand of your clients? Probably when someone, when people come to your company, when people come and they want you to guide them on what are the best activities for them to do or what are the best thing for them to venture in while they're out there, what leads you to tell a certain group this is what I think is good for you and not tell the same to a different group. Perfect now that breaks down to one thing. What is your objective? So I have different clients with different objectives. Number one a client will come and tell me Nick I want to hike Mount Kenya. So how do I go about it? And then another client will come and tell me Nick I have never hiked before and I want to hike the same on Kenya. Now the other client, the client A has some small experience. The client B has no experience. So now that is there we divide the program. So we come up with a program for a client who was hiked before so that you advance their training and then you custom make a training program for the new client. So with a new client we start with very friendly activities that includes organizing some boot camp, zumba dances to build on the cardio. From there we move to something like staircase challenge. You go into some stairs to perfect your art, the legs and the leg muscles, still improving your cardio. Then we'll give you a very light hike like Mount Lungano to see how you're going to perform. Remember Mount Lungano is only 2,600 meters above sea level, roughly around there. So with that you may not really experience the challenges that come with hiking very serious mountains but now we begin to build from there. Come back with a client, sit down and analyze how was the challenge. Are you ready to move to the next level? I want to take the next level. So again I move them to a little bit higher than Mount Lungano for example. What would you say are some of the advantages and disadvantages in wellness adventures and this is in terms of running our shawan adventures. What would you say are the disadvantages and challenges? Let me start with the advantages. The advantages are that clients are able to meet their targets in terms of also remember when you're doing an outdoor the body is so much involving in that. So you lose weight that is rule number one. So if you have any issues to do with weight basically outdoor will really help you to work on that. Number two is that because of the change of environment it's a therapy for the body. Also the mind. So assume this someone works from Monday to Friday from 8 to around 5 p.m. Now by the time you leave your office beat the jam get home it's a process. Now that's Saturday for example that you're having an outdoor activity helps a client to rejuvenate you know refresh and be ready for another week. So that's another positive. Another positive is that it works on your heart. So that basically improve your heart muscles. With improving your heart muscles it means you also improve your blood circulation to your system. Okay. Right. Another thing that people maybe have never known is that it also improves your digestive system. Why? Because when you're burning more calories the body has to look for where to get the calorie and the first place has to be the stomach. Yes. So the advantages are so many. Talk about good sleep. You're able to sleep well due to just the fact that you're able to change the environment. It's a therapy for the body. Okay. Disadvantages. Yeah. Of course you have disadvantages and number one is that we have what you call the high altitude challenges and sometimes when you're doing very high mountains and all that we experience some difficulties in terms of oxygen supply so that can lead to some you know challenges that come with high altitude and number two is about it is it involves your body 100%. It involves your body 100%. So those are the two major and the third one of course is the risk or probably depending on where you're going. Like if you're doing abadaya there's high probability you'll come across some wild animals which might hinder your ability to proceed or halt a little bit. Yeah. I think those are the major. Okay. This seems to be a very good venture for people and I'm sure there are people after this program they are really going to invest and want to experience whatever you're talking about. Yes. But now let's look at cost and affordability. Affordability. Is it affordable to the local? It is for the person at the lower ground and the person at the average like is this something that is set for a certain class or it's something that if any person in Kenya wants to do it doesn't matter whatever they get or whatever where they live. Yeah. Is it available to everyone? Okay. Let me speak for Siwan Adventures. This is how we do it. We have a program for a whole year and in that program we will highlight the places where we wish to go or where we wish to take you. So we'll have less for example we'll have Mount Kenya, we'll have Mount Kilimanjaro, we'll have Mount Renzori and other beautiful places. So what we do, we give you an option. Okay. Let's assume an event is in September. We tell you you can pay Lippapole-Pole projects where you can deposit little by little as you prepare for the event. Okay. Number two, our packages are very much pocket friendly. Something that you can easily commit yourself and make sure you are part of it and not only is it pocket friendly but it's a wholesome thing in terms of whatever it covers whatever we whatever is our package that covers is something that I'm pretty sure that many people can really really afford. Okay. So now what is the impact of Wellness Adventure? What am I going to get if I decide that this weekend I want to come to Siwan Adventures? I want to go mountain climbing. I want to climb Mount Kenya. So tell me I need to understand like people out there need to understand. Okay. What are they going to get out of this there? Oh my. Now first thing you need to understand our country is very beautiful. You know there are places that we know but also there are places that we ourselves go to discover. Then we take our clients. So let's assume you want to join us maybe this Saturday. For example, maybe this Saturday's program will be in Abadaya doing a game drive or just a small hike. Now what does it come with that hike? It's basically travel. The package covers the traveling, security because your security is our concern and our number one priority. So when we are coming up with the package and the itinerary, one of the things that we put is our first priority is your security and your safety. Now on top of that they are beautiful. They are places in this country that I believe if you're able to take the clients they really appreciate. Okay. Something else very important. Let's assume it's your first time. You've never hiked before and I'm assuming today I'm going to be with Patricia on Saturday. One of the things that we do is we give maximum attention to the beginners. Of course in our team we have people who have advanced. They can, you know, they can really keep a very good pace but at the same time we also have those, you know, it's your first time. Yeah. And you know this thing has a very big impact to our self-esteem. So if you're coming for hike and you're like, hey, me I've never hiked before. I don't know what's going to happen. Worry not. Because our responsibility is to work with you to ensure that at your own pace you get to the peak. Yes. Well, it's for every person. It is for every individual. Let's talk of inclusivity. We have the physically challenged persons. Yes. Do you have activities that a person with disability can walk in shown, can walk to shown adventures and say, I want to do one, two, three. And these things are there for them. And it's an activity whereby this person is not going to get any difficulties doing it. Perfect. Now what you have done, they are centers that accommodate people with disabilities. So we basically take the service to their doorstep. Get the point? We basically take the services to the doorstep, take them through the training. For example, there are sometimes the things like a workout. We can do a not necessarily have to be in a gym setting, but how many of the disabled people have the opportunity to experience the same? Very few or probably even none. So what we do, we come up together and we visit where they stay or where they are located and we conduct the program at their doorstep. Yes.  And there are guidelines that you give to them and tell them this is what, like this is the type of food that you guys are supposed to eat here because when I was looking around, it's also had something to do with some people just come there to just walk out to lose weight or for some people with mental health, they just want to be around a very good environment to relax. So are there guidelines that you give to people and tell them how they should behave, what they should carry, what is expected, probably to make the adventure better for them? Yes. Now one of the things that Siwan Adventures does is that we really invest a lot in research. So after we have researched, there are two ways, we do it in two ways. One way is that we research for on behalf of our clients. Then when we research we come up with what we call the itinerary. The breakdown of activities, the expectation and all that. Why are we doing that? So that we can leverage your expectations. Get the point. Now the second research is about where we are going. What economic value do we have in that geographic area? Like for example, if I'm taking my clients to abadir ranges, what can my clients benefit from abadir ranges apart from hiking? So we make arrangement with the local vendors and all that, that they can able to supply fresh vegetables, you know, organic products that our clients have been looking for at a very friendly rate, right from the farm. So even after the hiking and all that, one can still make an order and he still gets the stuff. Number two is we also have our nutritionists. What do you basically do now? Because now this is the beginning of the year. So this coming Saturday now we are having a moment with our clients so that now we lay out a program for 2019. Each client has a different objective. One wants to lose, another one wants to add. So those are two different people. So nutritionists will come in and come up with a program for those who want to lose, those who want to gain. Yes. So at the end of the day, our major objective is ability to minimize the chances of lifestyle diseases. Yes. Which is very nice. So as you wind up, where can people get you? Probably social media platforms, your location, because I'm sure probably someone watching tonight and they would like to come and do some activities with you. You can find us on our website, www.shiwanadventures.co.ke, your Facebook, shiwanadventures, you can check us on Twitter at shiwanadventures, Instagram, shiwanadventures. And also for the members who want to join, for the first time this is a New Year's resolution. I believe so many people are coming up with New Year's resolutions. Just write to us and we'll be able to work with you in 2019. And of course, bring a change as far as your health is concerned. And we are very grateful for finding time to come and share it with us. That is all we have for you tonight on Y244 News. My name is Patricia Murioki. Do have yourselves a very good night.


What does Sunday look like for you? Um, like what would my perfect sundae... You mean the ice cream sundae? Oh, no, sorry. Ha ha! Benjamin Von Lewin, CEO and co-founder of Von Lewin Ice Cream.  I think so. Who did your branding and what was the brief? When we founded VanLewin 12 years ago, my partners and I did the branding. We were inspired mostly by the Coca-Cola logo. We wanted a logo that was really strong and that sort of incorporated a little bit of nostalgia, a little bit of Americana, because we wanted to reinvent the ice cream shop. That's how we started VanLewin. Why VanLewin is a name? Originally we wanted to call it churn. I thought churn was the most brilliant name. Lawyers said no, it's too generic. Laura O'Neill, my business partner and co-founder, said why don't we use your last name? No one could pronounce our last name or spell our last name. We thought it was a horrible idea, but it ended up, I think, working. So churn does sound great. It sounds exactly like any cool short name, startup, everything. Yeah. And the lawyers told you now? There were too many other ice creams with churn in the name, either their name or the name of the ice cream. So hard to protect, hard to own, okay. And then, because VanLewin, I had no idea it was your last name.  VanLewin's a Dutch name. Our dad's a Dutch Jew. They were called Levy, and then 300 years ago they wanted to fit in in the Netherlands, so they changed it to VanLewin. Assimilated. Did you ever think about just being a pint company or a scoop shop? So originally we only wanted to sell ice cream off of trucks. There was no plan to go into wholesale or open stores. If you had one marketing dollar to spend, where would you spend it? Product. PR or influencers? PR. What's been the biggest media marketing investment you've made today? Targeted social media. Were you going to go with the Coca-Cola thing if you were churn or VanLewin? Yes, so the aesthetic was... Our vision for the aesthetic was really clear. And how much of your success do you credit to brand aesthetic? 20% of our success, exactly 20%. What makes you special? The reason I'm special in relation to running a business and running an ice cream business is because I'm really scared of not doing well and I have a pretty good palate. So I'm obsessed with making the most delicious product possible and I'm terrified that one day we won't be doing that so I'm constantly trying to make it better to serve people delicious products. Who is one person you'd love to have ice cream with that are alive? John Bonham, the drummer from WhatsApp. How much ice cream do you eat a week? I eat two to four pints of ice cream a week at least. What gets you more excited? Lines out the door or sold out of grocery? Lines out the door. Do you spend more time focusing on the pint or the scoop shop? 50-50. What do you do in-house versus out-of-house? Creative, digital, PR, marketing? So creative we do... We sort of do a combination in-house, out-of-house. So we have an in-house marketing team. We also just started working with Wyden and Kennedy and ad agency. We outsource our PR and for creating assets we do a combination. So for big projects we work with Pentagram. For smaller projects in-store assets we do those in-house. What brands, past or present, do you aspire VanLuin to be like? Coca-Cola, present. We love what Sweet Green has done with retail. I love Blue Bottle, what they've done with retail and obsession with the product. And then in CPG... I mean I love brands where product is king and where that's more important, where that's what built the brand rather than PR and marketing. So I love Mary's Gone Crackers, the gluten-free crackers. I really love a brand called Jovial Pasta. They've been doing pasta for like 40 years. It's not that popular but they make the best gluten-free pasta I've ever had. Better than a lot of non-gluten-free pastas. Ice cream is so fun. What makes the ice cream business hard? What makes the ice cream business hard is distribution. So you need a very low temperature cold chain. So we have a tiny list of distributors who can distribute ice cream. Distributors who do frozen pizza can't do ice cream. Ice cream needs to be a lot colder. So we need to be at least negative 10 degrees. What opportunity did you see? There's no shortage of good ice cream, in my opinion. The opportunity we saw was to make an ice cream using only extraordinary ingredients. So through and through the product, not just in a way where we sprinkle one in and talk about it on Instagram, make a really clean label product and then finally make a base that was the highest fat and highest egg yolks, which is what gives it the creaminess and the chewiness. So objectively, our ice cream is the most differentiated on the shelves by far if you're not comparing the low calorie stuff both in dairy and vegan. So we have the highest fat, highest solids, cleanest label and without question we're using the best flavoring ingredients. What does Sunday look like for you? Like what would my perfect Sunday? You mean the ice cream Sunday? Oh no, sorry. Sunday, day of the week. What do you do on Sunday? A typical Sunday for me is waking up. I love to work out and I have to work out because I eat so much ice cream. So I like to get that out of the way as quickly as possible. So I work out, if I have time I go to the farmer's market, buy some vegetables, go home. I like to cook Indian food, so I cook a lot of Indian food. Hang out with my girlfriend, walk the dog, play with the kitten. When did you decide to do vegan? We started doing vegan ice cream five years into the business. So this was seven years ago. And a lot of customers were asking for dairy free. When we did vegan, the goal wasn't to make good vegan ice cream. It was to continue making extraordinary ice cream with vegan ingredients. What's next for VanLuin? What's next for VanLuin is a lot more CPG distribution. So we're looking to go national with the brand. We're also launching novelties in the next year, which we're really excited about and continuing to open stores in New York and California and other new markets. Our novelties sandwiches and... So novelties are ice cream bars, sandwiches. Got it. Give me your investor pitch. Our investor pitch is that we're obsessed with product and we're working hard every day to make the most delicious ice cream possible. Is that really what you said in the room to Strand? Like, people give their pitch. They're really 32nd pitch. It should be... Yeah, I mean, it's along the lines of that, like product first. So the most important thing is the product. So strip away the marketing PR and making an extraordinary product. We think people will buy it forever for their entire lives. So we don't want to build a band with PR and marketing. We want to use those things just to support the product, but not the other way around. Are you lucky? Yeah, absolutely. Did a name like Van Luen feel like an okay bet because Haagen-Daz was kind of a for any name and they've been very successful? We really weren't thinking about it in that way, but we thought the name looked nice and we liked the idea of putting our name on something because we believed in it so much and we were and now are even more obsessed with making the best product possible. Is there anything that bothers you about the brand? What bothers me about the brand is we're super grassroots. We started with 60,000 bucks. We did a really good job with the branding. The name sounds very old and iconic. So sometimes people over assume sort of how much money is behind us and where we came from. How has the marketplace changed since you launched? When we launched, there were like three artisanal brands on the shelves in Whole Foods. Now there's 60, so it's become super saturated. Ben Van Luen, CEO and co-founder of Van Luen Ice Cream, thank you so much for coming here and answering some questions. Absolutely. I'm Ian Wishingrad and I'll see you next time on I'm With the Brand.


At Audiology Associates of Prestonsburg, you can live your life the way you want and find the freedom of better hearing. You'll experience patient care that is specific to you with exceptional follow-up care that ensures your hearing and balance needs are being met. Audiology Associates at 1428 Northlake Drive in Prestonsburg. A yard sale and flea market will be held in Williamson, West Virginia on Saturday, June 4th from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. This will be the first in what is hoped to be a series of yard sales slash flea markets which will take place in the spring, summer and fall. We're going to have everything from anybody that just wants to sell yard sale stuff out of their home to those that collect antiques and wants to sell it in a flea market. So we just decided to combine them all and have a good time and hopefully a big crowd will come out and want to buy some things. We also have a few food vendors as well and we'll be playing some music so just a fun time. The flea market is free for the public to attend. Vendors looking to set up must pay $30 to reserve a spot on the street and must supply their own tables, chairs and tents depending on your needs. We're excited to have it. We've been requested by, it was actually one of our councilmen that came up with the idea. I think several people in his ward had asked him about doing it. You know, some locations, people try to do yard sales and flea markets up where they live but sometimes where they're located. It's not always well advertised or people can't get to it and a lot of people miss out on it. So one of the councilmen approached me and came up with the idea with some of the members and his ward and thought, you know, it would be a good idea to have like a community flea market and yard sale and we hope to do more through the summer. This is our first series in it. If this one goes over well, then our next one will be in August. The yard sale and flea market will be held on First Avenue. Vendors seeking more information about reserving a spot can contact Tonya at<PHONE_NUMBER> or email event.coordinator at cityofwilliamson.org. For Mountain Top News, I'm Kelcie Bean.


Parmesan crusted brussel sprouts with bacon. Let's make it anybody can do it butter Parmesan danos make you a paste cover the bottom of your pan Throw them in put the bacon on top bake it in your oven for 25 Yum-yum get you some enjoy. Let me know what you think


We comprehensively looked at the Colberg model in our last session and today we are going to be talking about another model which again emerged from research conducted at Harvard University by Carol Gilligan. And this particular model basically revolves around the concept of care that in every human being there is a certain element of care but that care is manifested in different proportions and different perceptions and different interpretations and different circumstances. So she looked at model development in the context of care and also of how we tend to interface with other individuals. So more than something which is more introspective and more inner in context like the Colberg model of the development of morality, she looked at it from an external context and basically divided that development into three different levels of care. Now when we are looking at the Carol Gilligan model then we see that this was challenged by Gilligan and she thought that there are three levels of moral reasoning based on care. She provides evidence that about one-third of women took decisions based upon care and compassion. So the Gilligan model is more focused to the female gender and looks at how they look at decision making in the context of care and compassion and also how they would make sure that whenever they are taking decisions or doing things in a collective context they would empathize with the other person. They would sympathize with the other person and would shed away the other patis of apathy and antipathy. So again this model basically revolves around the two C's which are care and compassion. Care perspective or moral behavior emphasizes personal relationships, responsibility and care. So again this human development and moral development depends upon how we develop different relationships and what influence those different relationships have on us. How do we take responsibility? So we do have rights but with every right there is a responsibility. Are we willing to take that responsibility and then do we care for others or are we absolutely selfish. So these three elements form the basis of the Gilligan model and we are going to further see how these are divided into different levels. So when we are looking at level one of the Gilligan model then again we are seeing how these different relationships tend to ward off loneliness and create friendships. Now when we look at the human being, human beings are social animal and as social animal the worst state for a human being would be to remain in isolation. So usually what we see is that in prisons if there is anyone who is mischievous that person is put into the isolation ward. And after two weeks that person says that he would or she would not do anything wrong because they don't want to go back into the isolated confinement and therefore we as human are social animals and want to create friendships, want to create relationships, want to care for people and want people to care for us. We want to have the feeling of being together and we don't want to isolate ourselves. The same feeling also exists with an organization. Organizations want to have loyal employees. Loyal employees want to have good organization and that relationship is based upon mutual trust and an element of mutual care. And even though in now people think that this is the age of cutthroat competition but even in cutthroat competition there is this element of care, compassion and trust. And if it is properly exhibited and incorporated into an organization then it leads to healthy positive empathetic organization and that is what Gilligan basically was looking at. Now when we look at level 2 then the care oriented individuals in the Gilligan study showed more concern about institutions and the structure of relationships within an organization. We see that in the modern world organizations tend to create more informal platform, tend to create informal opportunities of families getting together, of events, of sports, of competition, of out of the box creative approach towards creating friendships, of encouraging employees to break the barriers of communication, of encouraging employees to have dialogues with each other to understand each other, of creating opportunities where employees can participate in happy events and also sorrowful events. So those organizations and those group of individuals tend to flourish more and tend to have a higher level of moral development because they tend to oversee and overcome and go beyond the element of selfishness and self-aggrandizement and they look at that element of collectivism and collective good and collective progress. So that is level 2. When we are looking at level 3 then we see that the majority of women regard non-violence and compassion as universal standards and the Gilligan study viewed care reasoning in terms of mutual care at least when participants are equal in the care relationship. So care cannot be a one road approach. It has to be mutual. It cannot be that I care for someone infinitely. There has to be a mutual relationship of care. There has to be mutual empathy. There has to be mutual sympathy. And when we are talking about females then they have a stronger emotional contact and a stronger bearing of relationships and that is what tends to influence them in the family, in the community and in institutions. So the Gilligan model revolves around care and compassion and consideration. mutual trust, understanding each other and caring for each other on a more equal level playing field without exploitation, without manipulation and without encroachment. So this model sees moral development on the basis of human relationships and how those relationships can be defined in different circumstances and different contexts. So that is the Gilligan model. Thank you so much.


Tom here from Lauren systems, and we're going to talk about NFS versus ice cozy I just did a video on benchmarking because I like to show the methodologies and tools I use to come to this conclusion But benchmarking is only part of the story. It's not just about the speed test It's about things like thin or thick provisioning and that is a part of the equation You need to determine whether or not you should choose ice fuzzy or NFS other part of the equation I found interesting was using Synology now I used this with Synology and I did the benchmarks on TrueNAS It is not a comparison of Synology versus TrueNAS because the machines are not equally specced to say which one of these two Machines in a showdown is faster But it is to take the same machine and run the tests on ice fuzzy and NFS on the same Synology Run the tests of ice fuzzy and NFS on the TrueNAS What was interesting to me and of course all the results are linked down below if you didn't feel like watching a whole video here But the results are also a little bit weird because the NFS was always slower on Synology But not always slower on TrueNAS This is one of those weird factors that is going to come down to the design of the storage server and who Manufactured and put it all together because the product does have some effect So it's not necessarily a protocol speed issue it could also be the system that is handling the protocol and I wanted to touch on some of those topics But also talk about the results and how we come to these inclusions Now before we dive into these details if you'd like to learn more about me and my company head over to LawrenceSystems.com If you'd like to hire short project There's a hires button right at the top which includes a lot of storage consulting if you want to support this channel Other ways is affiliate links down below to get you deals and discounts on products and services We talk about on this channel now everything is time indexed down below along with the links if you just want to jump ahead Feel free, but I want to set up the context and scope of this project One I only had time to test this with XC PNG the results may be different maybe in a future video I'll redo these tests with VMware I just didn't really have time to set up VMWare and compare because I'm curious if VMWare handles ice cozy and NFS differently and Versus XC PNG, but nonetheless, this is here. We are now ice cozy and NFS are shared Network storage tools and what this allows you to do is for example when we create an XC PNG pool We have three hypervisors in it They would connect to a switch and that switch would then connect to your NAS or sand depending on how you want to call it But essentially you have a shared storage where the VM storage lives in that way You're able to easily pass that running VM between the different hypervisors because the storage has a common place to live Whether you choose Synology ice cozy and NFS setups or TrueNAS ice cozy NFS setups either way This is a common layout Get more specifically though. What is the difference between ice cozy and NFS on ice cozy? The NAS server cannot see the files as it is just hosting the blocks of data and all file level functions are being handled by the Hypervisor this is because ice cozy presents over the network But as a block device to oversimplify it a bit We could just say a picture attaching a network cable to a hard drive So the NAS system may host the protocol ice cozy and functionally transport that data But it's a block device and basically doesn't have any insight into what file systems being used how it's being formatted It's just handling the bits and blocks on the back end This means all the VMs are stored in whatever Formats that the hypervisor has chose. So this ice cozy doesn't really have I mean There's probably some tools you can load on some NASs to mount it provided you mount it and whatever format the Hypervisor of choice has formatted the ice cozy in but as I stated, it's a block device being that It has a downside of being thick provision because it doesn't understand the files To do the thin provisioning and I won't go too far into it But thick and thin provisioning basically is an over provisioning method which allows you to say I can create a 60 gig Drive for a particular VM, but maybe it's only using 10 gig therefore in the NAS itself It only uses 10 gig and can expand later. This is kind of an advantage you have when you thin provision But ice cozy because the NAS is not understanding what's going on inside. It doesn't really have that opportunity back over to NFS The NAS server handles the files and each VM and the snapshots are in a VHD format So it can be viewed as a file on a NAS We're going to demonstrate that really quick here, but what the NFS share is just a standard file share So very similar to a way a Windows files type share works Which by the way Windows files sharing the server message block is not the best way to Connect VMs for those of you wondering the two popular options are NFS and ice cozy, which is what I'm talking about I'm but the NFS means the NAS system itself whatever file format it uses in the example of true NAS It's going to use ZFS an example of Synology it can be done either via extent for or Butter FS along with the Synology the way it handles the rate on the back end But either one of these systems can actually see the files All right, let's do a quick example of a thin provision and how the snapshots work So here we have the WN 11 Zen speed test and it's running on my true NAS mini lab With thin provisioning because it's done over NFS and there's only I think one disk in here So if we look there's the one 60 gig disk But what does that actually look like to the file system logged into the true NAS? It's only 36 gigs because it's thin provision. So if we go back over here and Click on this we're gonna go do a snapshot of this virtual machine new snapshot matter of fact, we'll Yeah, one snapshot is probably fine if we just Look at this again It created a couple of them because it's got to understand the differential between them But now they're only consuming a hundred and twenty 8k because nothing's changed VM's not doing anything right now So not much just happened. Let's go ahead and make the VM do something and I think I have some Random benchmarks we can do this is gonna read and write a bunch of little files and okay It's busy doing stuff now. So back over here and We've seen 2.1 gig worth of changes not another 36 gig as this file Changes as it does its read and writes and it's keeping the differentials. It's thin provision therefore. It's using very little space Right, so let's give the example here on this W and lab That's running on ice cozy if we go over here and create a snapshot for this one here We have a snapshot created and it's running on the ice cozy so we can click on this refresh and we see Quite a bit more data use instead of just using even though the only dis on here are this one and one snapshot it's Now using 115 gig as opposed to which should be only a few kilobytes because we aren't even actively doing anything with that VM either This is that thick versus then provisioning So this is a big consideration not just speed when you're doing this because the next problem You're gonna have is waiting for a VDI to coalesce and I've talked a little bit about this in the past But this can be a real challenge when you're thinking oh I only snapshot temporarily for a backup or for some reason and then I delete them later And this is where people have gotten themselves in trouble building out these systems thinking they have enough and we'll destroy this VDI And we're gonna create actually I probably should have done it with this here Snapshot will destroy this because they already destroyed the VDI, but now we'll do another snapshot And maybe we can even break this system Do another snapshot? Then we're gonna go ahead and delete these snapshots and what's gonna happen if we go back over to here We have VDIs to coalesce They need enough space to get rid of the Differentials because even though everything's happening in real time on the back end the way a virtualization system work Is you have to give it time to coalesce all the data and get rid of these this happens again with NFS But when the NFS being thin provisioned, it's not as big of a deal because it will coalesce over time And each one was only thin provisioned. It's only a few kilobytes So not a big deal to get rid of it because these are thick provisioned It can take a little bit more time But in the meantime you can run out of space waiting for something to coalesce because it had to allocate each one So those are couple of factors you really need to consider before you decide whether you want something set up with ice Guzzi or NFS. It's not just about speed It's about this factor right here and being able to say all right are these going to coalesce and is it gonna happen and Before and this is when you have a lot of backup jobs before that was next backup jobs run All right now on to the test results themselves now first is the Synology This is a Debian XC PNG on the Synology RS 3621 Every view coming up with this device part of the reviewing of it has been just beating it up with a lot of tests and over and over again, there's a couple times when the Veronica's test suite didn't want to run for whatever reason when I put the plus at the end of it It kept getting stuck. So that's why there's one more column on here, but it's the same system. It's still the plus model It just was being silly But when you start looking at the results here and a couple of them didn't run For reasons I'm also puzzled by so you see a couple where there's not a comparison But we'll jump right down to the comparison one in every category here And it's represented by anything green green or blue at the top here It was faster to run things on the ice cozy even when I ran the sequel test here, but how much faster? Well, this is 10 seconds versus 9 seconds 38 versus 33 seconds 80 versus 65 and we did on the sequel light 128 benchmark Start seeing ice cozy take, you know a lot less for some of these when it comes to his small rights Lots of small rights. We do notice an advantage of the concurrent small rights being a little bit faster Now one of the other things that happened here and I especially made sure I did this on shunas And this is an important part of thick versus thin provisioning Is running the test whites giving time for the vm to expand There is a slight performance hit you take if something is thin provision What that means is once you thin provision it because it has to expand You should at least run a couple times the test so the vm can expand to its larger size So if you copy the vm over and it's only it's a 60 gig Allocation but only 32 gig used in a thin provision You at least want to run it once so it gets up to whatever it's going to expand to This is not an issue when you thick provision something So you can just run the test once but that's also what causes some of these anomalies including especially on here It did the same thing again. It showed some of the tests running twice So there's not much variation here on the shunas system But let's talk about the numbers there because they're a little bit different So nfs versus ice cozy on shunas shunas gives you a lot more options and synology for fine tuning But I left everything at default so standard default data set size of a 128 k And this is where you could actually dive in to do some fine tuning either on ice cozy or nfs And I talked about this in benchmarking you fine tune in order to optimize for your workload This is a generic baseline set it at the middle 128 k block size Upping the block size or lowering the block size can cause Variations in the speed, but like I said, everything's left at default for this also asynchronous rights on both the shunas and on the Synology we're turned on for nfs. That's just an important tuning factor that you may want to have on there Mileage may vary. It's just a factor. I want to make sure it's documented here nfs on shunas ice cozy on shunas nfs on shunas the sequel light Barely faster Barely faster, but once we got up to these larger ones much like we see not analogy. There were some speed differences where Uh, it fell behind a little bit, but this is where things get a little strange Is it was able to perform better than in a few categories? So let's scroll down and look at where nfs one and I believe it was all in the streaming categories. Uh, would have been The larger block size tests right here flexible io tester random read We favored nfs Uh flexible random read on 256 kilobyte and one megabyte all favored on the nfs side same thing with some of the 16 kilobyte sequential Writing was actually faster, which I thought was interesting and we got about a 21 speed difference on the flexible io tester for So sequential write sequential write some of these I said were repeated. So this is just a duplicate Uh 256 and one meg again So there are some factors that it was a little bit faster But like I said, there's a lot more to it than just the speed the speed is obviously an issue if you're optimizing But the second part that was the thin versus thick provisioning Maybe more of a deciding factor than a five or six percent speed boost and obviously we see in some of these is high as Uh 80 percent, but that's also because the workload Maybe just more optimized with the default ice cozy setting versus the nfs settings But if I were to tune it for those settings that gave it the speed advantage on ice cozy Then it would probably lose its advantage of the higher larger file sizes that were able to be written So ultimately it comes down to which one works for you based on the workload You plan to run on it and if you plan to learn a very mixed workload No problem Just go ahead and leave it in the middle and kind of get as best as you can Which yeah the middle never really helps much But at least it's it's one of those things if you have mixed workload But this is where the opportunity comes into you if you set up different ice cozy extents For each workload and different nfs extents for each workload So you create a data set for each nfs for each optimized workload instead of just creating one large nfs pool Then it's kind of a big advantage the other one snapshotting in true nas the zfs snapshots are wonderful But they create kind of a problem for ice cozy because of the way ice cozy stores all of the vms into a Single ice cozy lund that may be a problem for you because what if there's eight vms in there and you want it to restore One of them by rolling back to a snapshot you can't you have to restore All of them when you're doing this inside of nfs the snapshots back to being just a file system You can snapshot it then you can fork the snapshot and go grab that one vhd file And copy it back over to the pool and you're done ice cozy because the nas itself is unaware of the file Structures within there unless you're using some other tool to mount it Creating a snapshot forking it attaching to that particular ice cozy one a lot more work And you can't manipulate the files natively on the nas so now you've got to try to figure out how to extract that vm out of there It's not an impossible task. It's just a way more labor intensive task and setup task Finally, I will do an upcoming video on storage design because there is another factor when you're doing this and the answer might be Why not both you may want to set up your nas where you have nfs for the vms but ice cozy for things like windows and this is a Common storage design where you take and the vm itself may run on nfs and that's where the windows vm lives But do you store everything within that windows vm not really? It's not a great idea You may want to present ice cozy to windows that way you can have a block device presented to windows that has All the full set of features that come with windows and ntfs presented over ice cozy as the storage device And that way your vm backups can be separate I'm going to do a future video talking about storage design because a lot of people just want to stuff everything into the vm And that's not the best place to do it You either want to use a separate nas for your file shares Or when you have to mount some type of data store because you're running a database and it's more practical To do so you may want to have the vm boot and then mount the nas again in a different way And like I said with windows ice cozy is a popular way to mount block devices But you can also if you have some linux servers that start up they can mount ice cozy or nfs Where you get the best of both worlds the virtual machine itself Reading from nfs is fine But because of performance reasons the actual data store may be on an ice cozy extent that's mounted by the vm As opposed to trying to stuff everything into the vm This also gives you the advantage of course of being able to back up a vm because the vm itself is small And gray log would be a great example of that. I've talked about this on the channel before I have to have a video on gray log gray log needs a large data store stuffing all that into a vm Not a great idea because if you wanted to back up your gray log vm You're gonna end up backing up all that data So just creating a small vm and then mounting the storage separately probably a better idea I'll probably use some videos on that in the future Leave some comments below so I can kind of get an idea what some of the gaps are actually a lot of my videos are Very much driven by the audience feedback or different knowledge gaps that people may say Hey, it'll be great if you could explain how this is set up So that's also a great discussion having the forums where all this will be linked to Links to everything down below links to some of the previous videos of course And if you want to interact directly with me and dive deeper into this topic The forums is a great place to engage with me on that or of course hit me up on twitter All right, and thanks and thank you for making it to the end of this video If you enjoyed this content, please give it a thumbs up If you'd like to see more content from this channel hit the subscribe button and the bell icon To hire a share project head over to laurance systems.com and click on the hires button right at the top To help this channel out in other ways There's a join button here for youtube and a patreon page where your support is greatly appreciated For deals discounts and offers check out our affiliate links in the descriptions of all of our videos Including a link to our shirt store where we have a wide variety of shirts and new designs come out well randomly So check back frequently And finally our forums forums at laurance systems.com is where you can have a more in-depth discussion about this video And other tech topics covered on this channel Thank you again, and we look forward to hearing from you in the meantime check out some of our other videos