My name is Barbie, wanna play? I was probably super freaking cringy, but as you guys read by today's title, I am going to be acting like Barbie to see how my fiance reacts. I'm literally going full-fledged Barbie, like full-on Barbie mode. Like, I don't even know how to act like Barbie, but we're gonna wing it, we're gonna see how I do. I feel like that was pretty good. Like, hi Ken, wanna play? I don't even know. I'm still freaking cringy, so I'm so sorry if you're cringing out this whole video, but I feel like it's gonna be super fun to see Bill's reaction. I also forgot to put on my engagement ring. I'm gonna make Ken do it. Ken's gonna be my maid today. If Ken wants to be in my life and wants to love me, he needs to do everything for me today. Barbie still needs to eat. Barbie wants to go lay out by the pool. Barbie wants to get a cake pop from Starbucks. Barbie wants to do a lot of things today. So I'm really excited because I feel like Barbie theme has been everywhere. Like, I feel like I'm Barbie Crocs. If you guys don't know this, I'm gonna give you guys a little sneak peek. For my bachelorette, I'm doing full Barbie theme. That's the only hint you guys can get. And all I gotta say is we're gonna go all out.  So I was like, you know what? This is a perfect video to do. I saw Kristen and Ralphie do this video. I think that's how you say their name. I'm so sorry if I said it wrong. I saw them do it on their channel and I was like, oh my gosh, this is such a perfect video because Barbie's like popping right now. I really wanna go to the movies and see Barbie, but I don't know why movie theaters just scare me. I don't know if that's just a me thing or what, but I might make Bill take me this weekend because I really wanna see it. I feel like it'd be a really, really fun date night. Also, I have the perfect outfit for Barbie today. Let me show you guys. Literally, this was my Barbie outfit that I was gonna wear for Halloween last year. So I was like, you know what? Let me pull this out. I think this is what I'm gonna wear this year for Halloween. Me, Bill are gonna be Barbie and Ken, so stay tuned for that. But I feel like this is the perfect outfit and the perfect time to wear this. So yeah, I had Barbie makeup on. I had the pink little hearts. I have my hair done. I wasn't gonna do like a really high pony because I know a lot of like Barbies like they'll have their hair like this, but their pony, which I could even do that now, like tuck it behind my ears. But like, I don't even know how the girls do it where their hair is like this. I was trying really hard to do that, but I feel like I got money pieces so that it's really hard to like silk it down. But you guys, let's get this video started. I'm super excited to be Barbie. Just a forewarning, I'm so sorry for the cringe, but we gotta do, we gotta do. I'm gonna go ask Ken if he wants to play. I want Ken to feed me. I have a lot of things on my agenda that I need Ken to do. So let's play.  Make sure you guys hit that subscribe button.  So Phil's in the office. Barbie, let's go.  Oh my God. You look good. Are you for real? It's her engagement ring. Guys, can you go get my engagement ring for me? Please.  Barbie needs her engagement ring to complete the book. Okay, okay, okay. Sorry, Barbie. God damn. Also, she needs her Barbie Crocs as well. I thought they were over there. Oh, thank you Ken. Barbie, that's smart. I get today, my name is Barbie.  Ken, be nice to Barbie today. Did I marry Barbie, did I marry Mariah? You marry Barbie. Mariah. You marry Barbie. Barbie, okay here. I guess I'm married to Barbie now. I'm about to be. Barbie is hungry now. Oh my God. Barbie would like the sandwich. Barbie would like to sit down and eat. Can you prepare Barbie food, please? Can you please say something other than Barbie? I am hungry. I eat food in my belly. I'm actually hungry too. But wait, you're plastic though. Yeah? Barbie still eats food.  So what do you mean? Yes, I can. Then you can. Barbie can still eat. Barbie is plastic. Barbie does not have a nutritional diet like humans. I'm a Barbie girl in a Barbie world. I get to play. It's not a Barbie world. Okay, Barbie, what would you want to eat? Barbie would like her sandwich. Oh my God. Hi guys. What is up? Barbie is about to be fed by Ken. Fed by Ken, my belly is gonna be full. This makes so much sense now. This makes so much sense now. You know what? I'm fine with that. Thank you, Ken. All right, Barbie. If you want this sandwich, Barbie's gonna have to give Ken a kiss on the lips. Barbie does not kiss and tell. What does that even mean? You have to work up for a kiss to get Barbie kissed. Barbie's wearing my engagement ring that I bought for her. Ken, I need to respect Barbie. Stop, stop, listen to me. You need to respect Barbie. Barbie does not listen to men who demand.  Which one's yours? All right, Barbie, let's see. How does Barbie eat in a Barbie world? Barbie needs some gloves. Do you have some gloves? Gloves for what? Is this too oily for Barbie? Oh my gosh, Barbie, you're crazy. Barbie needs gloves. Barbie needs stuff so her hands don't get oily. Do I know what Barbie needs? Barbie needs some duct tape around her mouth because it's been already going on for five minutes and I'm already stressed out. Barbie does not eat human food. Okay, Barbie is full. You took one bite. Barbie's craving. You took one bite. Barbie needs a cake pot from Starbucks. Can you take me to Starbucks, please? Barbie, we already went to Starbucks this morning. Barbie wants round two Starbucks. Ken, do you want to marry Barbie? Can I finish my sandwich, please? Can you take Barbie to Starbucks, please? Yes, I'll take Barbie to Starbucks. Can I finish my sandwich? Can I finish my sandwich? Yes, Ken. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me to eat. I really appreciate it, Barbie. You know what? I don't know what I would do without you. Honestly, I like this kind of than Mariah.  Bye, Ken. You know, Mariah probably won't like that I have another girl in my house. Did you hear me? Bye, Ken. Mariah probably won't agree with having another girl in the house. Bye, Ken. Oh my f***ing God.  Bye, Ken. Oh my God, stop. Ken, can you buckle Barbie so she is safe on this car ride to Starbucks? Yes, yes. I feel like me and Barbie got off on the wrong start. I wanna apologize to you and I wanna just say how freaking good you look. Thanks, Ken. I appreciate your apology. But you look like really good too. Thanks, Ken. Do you think I look good? Of course, Ken. Ken, can you please buckle my seat belt? I think I got a chance with her. All right. Ken, you're so silly, Ken. Ken, you're so silly, Ken. You're so silly. Nope, I'll get Barbie is ready for her cake pop. Come on, Barbie. Did you know today's Barbie's birthday? Oh, is it really? Barbie's 21st. Oh my gosh, Barbie's 21.  Of course.   All right, so there's a chance. Please respect my wishes. All right, just please don't tell Mariah. Is that between you? The secret is safe with me, Ken. All right, so anything we do, Mariah's not gonna find out about. Correct, Ken. All right, I like this. I like this new Barbie, okay. Barbie is limited edition. Barbie is. It only comes out when it's time to play. But you have to keep it a secret. This is just a me and you. Your secret is safe with me, Barbie. I'm not gonna say anything. Barbie is your doll. Barbie, you can customize. Barbie can do whatever you want. You just have to ask Barbie and you have to respect Barbie. If Barbie says no, Barbie says no. If you can't get Barbie. Can Barbie. All right, today's gonna be another fun day, Barbie. If you disrespect Barbie. Barbie goes bye-bye. All right, that's fine. You don't get Barbie no more. It's fine. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. And I agree with all those rules. Perfect, Ken. Can I get a birthday cake pop? Yeah, just one. Yeah, just one and that'll be it. Usually, Starbucks asks for your name and I was gonna say my name's Ken because obviously you think I'm Ken today. Of course, you are Ken. Who else are you? Who else would you be? I don't know, Bill? I don't know, I don't know who that is. I am Ken. Yes, you are Ken. And you're in love with Ken. Yes.  Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Let's go. Let's go, play. I know. Not now. Oh my God. You can't play with me like that. I play with you like that. Remember, you're my doll. I'm not your doll. Love you, Ken. Okay. Barbie. Yes, what I got. Birthday cake pop. I got your own pink birthday cake pop. They match your long socks that you have on. Your shirt thing. And I get the first bite. I was kidding. Look at that. Look at her face. Ken's gonna get no kiss today. Stop, Ken. What? Barbie's gonna be fed by Ken. Oh my gosh. Can you please feed me, Ken? Do I have to do everything for you today? Yes, Ken. Oh my God. Please feed me, Ken. Barbie. I don't think the whole point- Please feed me, Ken. Okay, okay, okay. But before I feed you, I just- Ken. What? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Barbie's about to go. No, no, no, no, no. Okay, here. Come here. Cake pop. Mmm. Oh, that looks so good. Oh my gosh. That looks so good. Can I do, Ken? Look at it. Look over there. There's a... Oh, there's a, um... Ken? There's a lizard. You get no kiss today. Why? You disrespected me. No, I fed you. Barbie would like another bite. Thank you. Okay, here. How did I disrespect you? I didn't do it. You did not.  You did not do that. Barbie was hungry. That was so good. You didn't even let me have any. This is what I get for being nice to Barbie. That's some BS. Barbie, love sweets. Remind me never to go to Starbucks again. Barbie, I know something that you would absolutely love before we go home. What, Ken? I think you would love if we went to Target and walked around and just bought you a whole bunch of snacks and sweets, since you love sweets. So we should go to Target. We can carry you up there if you want me to or you can walk in by yourself and we should just walk around in public. But that doesn't sound like a fun idea. Let's do that. Let's do that. Let's go there, Barbie. No, let's go there. Oh, we are not going there. Come on. I know you want to walk around in there. Come on. Barbie is not dressed to go to Target. Barbie needs to be redressed if we're going to go to Target. Then what are you dressed to go for? This is Barbie's fault. She actually really wanted to go lay out by the pool. Or Barbie could go on a party. We can pick that one. Maybe if Barbie needs to get Barbie's. Oh my God, Barbie's crazy. That's what Barbie is. Barbie needs help getting picked on what she wants to do today. Wait, can Ken help Barbie change? Ken can't help Barbie. Okay, we are going home now and we are going to do that. That sounds like a way better plan. I don't know what I was thinking. Ken. What? Can you please come here, please? Oh my gosh. I sat down for 30 seconds. Barbie needs assistance. Barbie really wants to go lay out by the pool. Can you please dress Barbie? Barbie, we got work to do. Can you please dress Barbie, Ken? Yes. I will dress you only because that sounds like a fun time. What would Barbie like to wear? Barbie would like to wear a very pretty swimsuit that Ken chooses. Are you going to the pool? No, I'm just going to go outside and just lay out for a little bit. Just look at the sun for like an hour. Yes, Ken. Okay, let's do that. All right, Marvel Squad. Ken is going to be dressing Barbie in three, two, one. Voila. How does that look? Ken. What? You did not pick out the correct swimsuit. This was pretty. You look good in it. I wanted pink. Barbie is all of me. Oh my gosh, Barbie. Can you please readdress her? But you look good in this one. Can you please readdress Barbie? Can you just look at yourself in the mirror and just... No, Ken, can you please readdress Barbie? All right, all right. I'm just trying this one more time. This is the last time I'm changing. You said pink. Yes, Ken. Pink. Y'all heard that. How do you change your mind after this? Correct, Ken. Pink. Yes, Ken. All right. Let's try this one more time. Ready? What do you think? I love it, Ken. Thank you. I love it. All right, thank God because I was going to have to return your ask if you said that this was not the right color again. It's pretty, Ken. Thank you, Ken. Ken is the best. Ken deserves a kick.  You're for real, though. Barbie is just for real. All right, this is documented. But we can't show this tomorrow. So please, nobody. I knew she would fold. I knew. I'm just too good looking of a guy for her now. Ken, you can follow me online. Barbie, get played. I'm actually super hyped. That was sick. That was a good kiss. Your lips are juicy. And I don't know what lipstick you're wearing, but I'm definitely wearing it now, too. Barbie always has juicy lips. Barbie is the best with kisses. Barbie has the best lips. I know that. What's up, guys? It's me and my new girl, Barbie. We're just hanging out here. Relax. Can you please be quiet until Barbie says to talk? Thank you. So Barbie gives me a kiss that goes, shh. I'm scared. I always knew dolls were scary. Barbie said, shh. All right, I'll let you be. OK, Barbie's done. Barbie would like to go inside and do that. It's been three minutes, Barbie.  I did not come out here for no reason. I am not changing you.  Ken, can you just take Barbie inside? Take my hand, please. She sat out here for three minutes. Let's go, Ken. Three minutes. Come on, Ken. Let's go, Ken. I'm not changing you again. OK, well, Barbie is going to get dressed. Barbie is needing something black, because Barbie has done anything. If you tell me to put on the thing that I just put on to you, I'm going to go evil. No, please don't do that. Please don't. No. Since Ken made her mad, she's going to go evil. No. Can I give you another kiss? Ken can give you another kiss? Ken can make up for it, Barbie, please. Barbie is malfunctioning. No. Barbie says no. No, Barbie. No, you do not malfunction. I request that you wear it. Barbie says no go away. Oh my gosh, Barbie. Barbie would like to get dressed in peace. OK, but can you just please don't get mad. Please, everything's fine. No, don't look at me sideways. Why are you looking at me like that? Barbie. I'm so scared right now. I literally have no idea what to expect. I have no idea. She comes out looking like a devil or something. I'm going to freak out. I swear. OK. What? All right, but if Barbie is going to be mean to me, I don't want her coming out. Yes, but you have to promise me you're not going to be mean. What do you mean you can't promise me that? All right, just come out, just come out. That was not cute, but you look cute. You look really good. Baby, I'm just joking. I can't do it anymore. What do you mean? I can't be Barbie anymore. No, no, no, no, no, be Barbie. No, no, no, no, be Barbie. I want to see Barbie in this. I can't be Barbie. Please, just one more time for me. My whole voice, I'm done. No, I'm done. No, please, one more time. Barbie's over it. Why would you change into something so cute? I know, but no. OK, come on. You're not Barbie anymore, so. I know I'm not Barbie. Barbie is done. Barbie is living this day. How are you just going to do that? How are you going to ramp me up like that? And then, all of a sudden. You guys, Barbie is done. Can you just do it one more time? Do it one more time. How can? Dude, I literally, every time I think of Barbie, I'm going to remember of that. Wait, are you back for a good now? I'm back for a good now. Look at a little bit of it. OK, because, oh. A little bit of staring into our soul. Hey, Scar. Scar, so baby. You're back for a good? Yes, how did you like it? Thank God. How did you like? I love Barbie, but I like Mariah way better, because Barbie was kind of uptight. Barbie was kind of being a little. Barbie was a little uptight, but Barbie was a little uptight.  But no, I don't like Barbie like that. Barbie was self-destructing on me. And if Barbie was self-destructing. Barbie was turning into a bad thing. We got the wrong Barbie in the house. We got the double Barbie coming out. Barbie is supposed to be a dream. She's supposed to be living in the dream house. Hey, Barbie was living in the dream house. But Barbie was over it, because Ken wasn't being very nice to Barbie. Barbie was going to the basement. That's where Barbie was going. Guys, I hope you enjoyed this video. I'm so sorry for the cringe and advance. How did you like it? Did you like it? I loved it.  You're still cute. Honestly, I've never seen you in tights before.  Like, in my opinion, when we did our baby video and I had to act cute. Oh my God, yeah, the baby video.  So, I think you did pretty good. I'm going to rate Barbie on this video. I'm going to rate it 8 out of 10. I do feel like you could have put a little extra oomph and not been mean to me, because I'm kind of sensitive like that. Ken needs to get over it. Ken wants to marry Barbie. Ken's gone. Have some thick skin. If Barbie wants to marry me, look at you stole Mariah's ring. I don't even know who to talk to anymore.  I'm Mariah. Then why you calling me Ken? Because you were Ken. But you guys, I hope you enjoyed today's video. We're going to end the video right here.  Thank you guys so much for watching. I hope you guys enjoyed it, because I feel like that was very fun. And I was going to ask you, we should go see the Barbie movie together. The Barbie movie? In the movie theater. Would you want to? I did not even think about that. Would you want to go? I didn't even know there was a movie coming out. Would you want to maybe go? I don't know what you're doing. Yeah, we can go tomorrow or something or this weekend. Oh yeah, that sounds like so much fun. I just- You don't want to see the Barbie movie? No, that sounds like so much fun. What do you mean? That sounds like an absolute blast. You know the test, right? If a guy wants to go, do it. I do want to go. I do want to go. I feel like that'd be a fun time to spend with you and me there. It's a date. All right. All right you guys, we'll see you in the next video. Thank you so much for watching. But until then, peace. Love you guys.


You are listening to the Make Change Happen podcast from IIED, the International Institute for Environment and Development. In this episode, recorded for World Refugee Day, researchers from our urban development and energy teams, along with local experts working in Nairobi, discuss how and why refugee populations in Africa and the Middle East are shifting from camps to cities. Welcome to IIED's podcast, Make Change Happen. I'm so glad you could join us today. I'm your host, Liz Carlisle, and I am Director of Communications at IIED. I have some IIED colleagues here in the online space with me, who I will introduce you to in a moment, and we hope to be joined by some special guests. I think for us, the Make Change Happen podcast is really important. It's trying to make us think about change. And not for a long while has the word change resonated so strongly in the world. I think we're seeing around us with the COVID pandemic and the Black Lives Matter outpouring of support. These have really demanded that we change our way of working, our ways of being and our ways of seeing the world. And I think today's conversation is also pushing us to see the world differently, to see that we're prepared to think about people, think about their roles in a different way, their lives and how these play out. We're launching this episode for World Refugee Day, June the 20th. And this morning, I'm going to be talking to researchers here at IIED, my colleagues, Dina Dajani, Lucy Earle and Kevin Johnstone. And I'd like to take a minute now for them to introduce themselves. Lucy. Hi, Liz. Hi, Dina and Kevin. As you know, I'm a researcher in the Human Settlements Group. I'm working on a big research project. It's just started comparing the well-being and self-reliance of refugees and other forced religious people in urban areas and camps. So I'm particularly interested in how displaced people experience life in towns and cities. Great. Dina. Hello, Liz. Hello, Lucy. Hello, Kevin. My name is Dina. I'm also a researcher at the Human Settlements Group, and I work with Lucy on a project, on the project she mentioned, protracted displacement in an urban world. I've been working on several research projects with refugees in the past few years, both in the Middle East, as well as refugees who have settled in European cities in Athens, Berlin and in London. Great. And Kevin, I know we've spoken before on our energy podcast, but please do introduce yourself again today. Thanks, Liz. Hi, Lucy and Dina. I am an energy access specialist looking at ways to bring energy to everyone around the world. Recently, I did a piece of work looking at the crossroads of energy, gender-based violence and deforestation in refugee camps in Tanzania, focusing on cooking. Fantastic. And I also am happy to welcome, or we will be welcoming at some point in the program, Difford Aubrey, who is the Inter-regional Advisor for the UN Habitat, based in Nairobi, and Michael Oviso, who's Dean of the School of Development and Strategic Studies at Museno University in Kisumu, Kenya. We'll be very lucky in having their contributions to some of the points we're making today. So going back, World Refugee Day, June the 20th. This is a huge issue for us, and it is growing in importance. And what we're trying to do is to think about the different ways in which we perceive this issue of refugees and displaced people. And it's a great moment to ask Lucy and Dean, perhaps, to clarify for us what do we mean by refugees. The UNHCR website, the UN Refugees Agency, says here that there are 70.8 million forcibly displaced people worldwide, and 25.9 million of those are refugees. Yeah, Liz, so when UNHCR talks about refugees, it is talking about a specific category of people who've crossed an international border, and that's really important. So I actually did write down the definition of refugee, just to make sure I got it right, but it's somebody who's forced to flee because of persecution, war or violence. They have a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular sort of group, and they're unable or afraid to return home. But obviously, you also have people who have been displaced because of persecution, violence and conflict, but haven't crossed a border, and we refer to them as internally displaced people or IDPs. And then you have a whole category of people who are displaced for other reasons, for example, climate change or disaster or a big development project like a dam. And in some cases, those people also cross borders. Whether or not you can then call them refugees, that's a bit of a point of argument amongst specialists. So it's quite clear it's complicated and probably no agreement entirely on what the figures are at any given point. But what we do know is that this is a big issue. And I think by the time we've recorded this podcast, it's likely that 1,300 people will have been displaced in some way. So this is something we need to focus our attention on. So I think perhaps we could start by looking a little bit about sort of the impact of the camps, what they are and how they work. Who would like to start off us in that direction? Maybe I could start with some of the work we did last year with the energy team, Liz. That would be great. I think just to give people a sense of how it works and what we mean by that would be really helpful. Great. So we were tasked to look at cooking specifically, but also to understand kind of the effects of cooking on deforestation and gender-based violence in three refugee camps in Western Tanzania. One of the camps has been there since 1996, and two of them were set up in 2015 as several hundred thousand Burundians flee the violence and political upheaval in Burundi. What we found is from our kind of brief look there, what we could tell is that most people were reliant on wood and some people preferred charcoal and that kind of brings in some of the issues around cooking and the individual preferences and these kinds of things. But the main issue to look at is that women and girls are kind of the custodians of energy in the household in this context. And so they're tasked with a lot of the so-called chores around cooking, cooking food, the prep, the cleanup, all of these things, and most importantly, tasked with getting fuel and actually UNHCR provides a distribution of meals. But yeah, the means to cook that meal is up to the refugee. There are a lot of limitations on refugees getting fuel. So there's political issues. They don't have freedom of movement. They're only allowed about four kilometers outside the camps legally to collect the fuel. And if you go further than that, it's it's actually illegal. It brings in confrontations with community members and over scarce resources.   And at the same time, interestingly enough in Tanzania in some of the focus group discussions, you know, we discussed kind of what the coping mechanisms and other strategies. And of course, they had so many different interesting solutions. And one of them, you know, that clearly comes to mind is why don't the men go? And they said, yeah, well, of course, you know, it's an interesting solution. But in fact, if the men go, it's it's quite common that they disappear altogether, which has implications on the household itself in terms of, you know, missing someone from the household and distributions and let alone, you know, the human cost of this. On top of all that, there is the issue of deforestation, which the Tanzanian government and UNHCR are very concerned about. Normally, you see refugees as the scapegoat and clearly from satellite imagery. Since 2015, there has been increased deforestation around the camps and usually it's blamed on the refugees collecting wood. And of course, these camps are 300, 350,000 people. And of course, there's going to be a high contribution of deforestation by the refugees, but you also have other issues of land use change, host communities, the communities that live closest to the camps, kind of changing the land that they use and to grow more crops, to trade with refugees and so on and so forth. So we can see that cooking really is quite a complicated subject and there's many different issues and it crosses political, economic, social sectors. So it was quite eye-opening for us to kind of, you know, take a look at this as quick as we did. But, you know, it brings up a lot of questions around cooking and protection and providing energy for refugees in camps. So already we can see a huge complexity, can't we? In terms of a group of people trying to live their lives as normal, but in a place where they've just effectively arrived and been put and then the communities around the camp trying to, I suppose, deal with both the threat and the potential of that. So you've talked about gender impacts, you've talked about environmental impacts. Lucy, Dina, do you want to contribute any thoughts here? Yes, I think it's, what's interesting to note is also that refugee camps, when they're established, they often draw new populations of people from around the country to those sites and because refugees come often, come with humanitarian assistance. So there will be people setting up a refugee camp providing food aid and they'll be providing services like schools and hospitals. And actually, those camps can draw relations to areas which may not have had very many people living there previously and that can really exacerbate as well the environmental impacts which Kevin mentioned. But I think what's really important to note actually is that the majority of the world's refugees are not in camps. And although camps sort of, you know, draw people's attention, actually I think it's around 60% of the world's refugees are in towns and cities and only a minority are in camps. And Jordan, there's a really interesting example of how things are already skewed towards camps. In that, there you've got, Dina probably has better figures, but you know, hundreds of thousands of Syrians refugees. 80% of those refugees are in urban areas, but 80% of the funding goes to two main refugee camps there. And that's kind of a skewed up, skewed situation. Dina, do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Yes, absolutely. So officially there are around 650,000 refugees, Syrian refugees registered in Jordan, but it's estimated that around over a million, so 1.2 is the total number. And that is one of the issues that actually differs between working with the refugees, supporting refugees in camps and urban areas, to supporting refugees in camps, because a lot of the refugees in urban areas are unregistered. So although a percentage of them are, many of them actually do not have access to any of the support or humanitarian assistance that can be provided if you're a registered refugee. So like Lucy said, most refugees live in cities and a huge amount of these refugees, a significant amount are unregistered. And that leaves one of the few options they have in terms of livelihoods is the informal economy, where they could be subject to more exploitation because of the lack of any rights they have to protect them. Okay, so we have this situation where I think the camp situation that Kevin has described, and then we have this situation where there are a number of people living in cities in some way or other, and this challenge of registration. Before we leave this understanding around the sort of the impacts of camps, I think Lucy, you were going to talk to Michael Aouiso from Messeno University on some of the kind of security issues around where camps were, you know, how people made choices as to where to house people, where should the camps be, where should refugees be housed. So I think we are going to hear from Michael. Kenya experienced a large influx of refugees around about 1990, 1992, you know, with the conflict in Somalia, the conflict in Sudan. This then forced the country to make decisions in terms of where to house the refugees. For Kenya's part, two major considerations were made. The first was domestic considerations. In domestic considerations, Kenya, of course, was thinking about what are the costs that come with housing refugees, social costs, economic costs, environmental costs, you know, health costs, security concerns, and so on and so forth. For example, Kenya thought about socially how would this create conflict between the host communities, particularly whether they were going to be hosted or not. If these large influxes, for example, were housed in Nairobi, what would that mean for the populations in Nairobi or populations elsewhere in the country? And so Kenya then chose to house them in the northern parts, which sparsely populated and we have huge chunks of land where we only have pastries moving back and forth in those lands. So that was one consideration. But also economically, this also then did mean that Kenya would not have huge economic costs related to housing refugees, for example, in Nairobi, the capital city. But putting them in the northern part of Kenya then would also mean that the economic costs were negligible, so to speak. Another consideration was to do with the environment and of course, what environmental impact would this mean to the country and to the regions where they were housed. And of course, putting a refugee camp in the general northern part of Kenya then would have some environmental impact but not so much as opposed to, for example, creating a whole region, for example, in the White Highlands of Kenya, which is the red basket of the country and housing refugees there. The other consideration that was made was to do with security, the security concerns. And here, we talk about both security, national security, as well as the stability of the country. The security concerns were supposing, for example, that these are refugees coming from Sudan and there's some kind of retaliation from the Sudanese government or from any other war infections that might have made them to actually become displaced. Then containing them at the border would mean that such a conflict would not find its way into the Kenyan territory and would be contained at that level and therefore not affect the general Kenyan population. So in terms of security concerns, those were some of the concerns that made the country, Kenya, host refugees at the borders. Also, if you want to talk about stability, then it meant that if Kenya had camps and big camps such as Tadab and Kakuma somewhere in the heart of Kenya and let the local population, for example, got wary of hosting refugees, got tired of the problems, challenges that came with hosting refugees, then it would lead to a situation of instability on the part of the country. Instability can also be seen from the point of view of a possible, for example, attack from a faction from the other side. We saw, for example, historically, attacks by different communities, different factions in South Sudan and those spilling into Kakuma refugee camps, for example. So then that would pose the instability question for Kenya. Having spoken about the domestic considerations, Kenya also has foreign policy considerations that they make when hosting refugees. One of them is the reputation that by hosting refugees, Kenya then would have a reputation regional. Remember, one of Kenya's foreign policy agenda has been to appear as the regional peacemaker. That is key in terms of reputation that Kenya is a good neighbor, Kenya hosts refugees, but also in hosting the same refugees that Kenya also makes and has made efforts to pacify warring factions, for example, in Somalia as well as in Sudan. Those are some of the benefits that Kenya considered. One other benefit has got to do with the question of attracting humanitarian aid and the benefits that come from the national community as a result of that. So those also are considerations that Kenya made in hosting refugees. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the work that we're doing, IID, is trying to see how refugees can actually benefit from being in urban areas. There are so many negatives attached to being in a camp, the environmental ones, the issues around violence, also the massive cost of keeping people in camps and the lack of dignity and lack of opportunity that is there. I mean, being an urban refugee, being a refugee in a town and city, that's not easy either, but the research we're doing is trying to show how towns and cities could be much better for refugees. But although I personally would think the world without refugee camps would be a much better world, it's a complicated issue because there are a lot of sensitivities with host governments about who refugees are and a kind of desire in many cases to keep them in one place, basically under relatively sort of strict control. I mean, this compares contrast from one country to another. But there are these sort of security considerations that do come to the fore for many governments about refugees and keeping them within a valid geographical area. So I guess moving our focus from camps to the cities, I think Lucy, you and Dina were just talking about how there has been this gradual shift. And you mentioned research. Presumably this is the new research that you're undertaking with the GCRF. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah, so the GCRF is the Global Challenges Research Fund and that's some UK overseas development assistance of being used to fund research in a lot of different areas related to humanitarian and development challenges. So we have funding for a three-year project from the GCRF. And it's looking at the issue of protracted displacements. So we're looking at refugee situations and situations of IDPs where they've been displaced for more than five years. So just to interrupt, Lucy, for our listeners, IDPs, just to reaffirm these are internally displaced people. Yeah, that's right. So yeah, we were talking a bit about IDPs earlier. So those are people who are displaced by conflict or natural disasters or climate change, but who haven't crossed the border. And we're looking at IDP populations in our Afghanistan study. In Afghanistan, you have people who have returned from, they were refugees and they crossed the border to speak with Afghanistan and they've returned. And sometimes they've been displaced again internally or they've been displaced within Afghanistan because of other forms of violence. Also looking at Ethiopia, Kenya and Jordan. And the idea of the study is to do a comparison between populations and camps and populations in urban areas. And look at the differences in experiences of well-being, of livelihoods and of potentials of survival and being able to live a life, sort of have a sustainable livelihood with dignity. And we chose those countries because they have both camp and urban populations. But one of the first things we're going to do is a household survey. And when it's safe to do that, we'll be surveying around 400 or so refugees in camps and urban areas in each of those four countries. We should be starting to get some preliminary findings. Perhaps in spring next year, if we're lucky, maybe a bit later. So it's really exciting. We'll be able to actually bring the voices of refugees into your thinking around this and to be able to get those voices higher up the policy chain, I guess. But what's really interesting about this research and quite novel about it, well, the urban camp comparison is novel. That hasn't been done on a big scale before. But what's really interesting is that we're also in each of the four cities where we're doing this study. We're setting up a participatory forum. The idea is that we're going to be bringing in, bringing together refugees, post-communities, refugees often living in formal settlements or we're bringing in formal settlement organizations. Bringing them into forum with people who have, who run the cities, people from the mayor's office, people from other parts of government and service providers. To start talking about solutions for refugees that work for hosts as well. And that's really important because I think often voices of refugees are just not heard in local planning processes. I think that's something that Kevin's mentioned before as well in relation to the Tanzania study about the lack of voices. I think particularly women's voices in local planning processes. And I think that's what struck me when I was preparing for this and why I said earlier about this need for us to see things differently. To see the opportunities and perhaps prepare for those in a way that people haven't been able to because they haven't been able to hear the direct experience and voices of refugees when making these decisions. I know Lucy too, you've been talking to Dufford Aubrey who is working at UN Habitat in Nairobi. And I guess it'll be great to hear from him around how towns and cities can prepare in more positive ways for large numbers of refugees so that they get the right kind of support for sustainable urban development. I think it's a very important question since the majority of displaced populations, refugees, IDPs are now coming to cities. And I think one thing is important to try to understand the longevity of displacement. The finding displacement trends ever increasing and particularly in complex crises and in conflict situations. So if it is expected that displacement should be protracted, there is a lot that cities can do. I mean, what we're hoping is that IDPs, refugees, those people who are forcibly displaced can be put on track for self-reliance as soon as possible so that they can contribute to the local economy, they can contribute to social development, etc. And cities can really support that a lot by ensuring access to education, ensuring access to the health system. But also in terms of planning, ensuring that they can be accommodated within the urban fabric through densification approaches or city extensions. And we've seen, for instance, in Iraq, a lot of progress in accommodating IDPs within extensions of cities. And the Aromia region in Ethiopia, for instance, where 11 cities were required to create spaces in the planned fabric of the city for IDPs. There's a lot of cities can do with the local private sector to see how this labor market of refugees and IDPs can be utilized and brought into the urban economy. So there's a lot that can be done, but it does require investment. It requires investment in your health and education systems in urban infrastructure and in supporting the private sector. And cities quite often just don't have those resources. They don't have own source revenue and fiscal transfers enough to be able to accommodate sudden changes in population. And that brings it back then to how we can use development assistance to support increased fiscal transfers or to increase the resources available at the city to be able to do that. And I think in the longer term, there's a clear economic argument that prolonging humanitarian support might not enable IDPs and refugees to make an economic contribution. But then advancing development support early could enable self-reliance and their economic contribution sooner. So it requires cities to be able to really do what they can do to support displaced communities. We need also a change in thinking in terms of how development actors can get involved with that process. UN Habitat is increasingly involved in these kind of displacement crisis situations simply because IDPs more and more are coming to cities and refugees as well. Some of the work we've done, for instance, in Sinjar is involved working with the cities but also at the legislative level in finding ways to ensure housing, land, property rights, tenure security for people returning. For example, the Yazidi population didn't have land rights to begin with. So we've introduced a social recognition of land rights which was adopted by the government of Iraq and has enabled return of thousands of people. Similarly, in Somalia, now in Baidoa, we're involved with planning and extension of the city in a kind of a mixed-use plan but ensuring that the IDP population will be included in that planning process and we'll find long-term solutions in this planned city extension. And we're also seeing the potential of smaller towns and cities to accommodate displaced populations. Quite often, because of the economy of larger cities, we find that displacement mainly takes place into the larger cities but we do feel that by supporting infrastructure development in small and intermediary towns and cities it would be possible for them to also absorb IDP refugee populations and by doing so strengthen their own economies. Yeah, I think that's really important because there are certain countries that have been host to refugees for decades, if not even longer. And so although it seems odd to plan for an influx of refugees, actually in some places, having that sort of responsiveness and resilience embedded in your planning process is probably quite a good idea. And I think Dina could say a bit about Amman there given that city's experience of receiving refugees over, I mean, I think it's more than decades, right? Yes, absolutely. In fact, in many ways, Amman is a refugee city. It's one of the longest inhabited cities in the world since Neolithic times but there was a plague in the 1300s and that unfortunately the city more or less died and then the first to resettle it after that were a group of Circassian refugees who were fleeing persecution from the Russian Empire, walked through the Ottoman empires and ended up settling in Amman. And since then, of course, it has hosted numerous refugee populations, two flows of Palestinian refugee populations, Iraqi refugees, Syrian refugees, Armenian communities, Chechen communities. And of course, in many ways, it's been one of the most welcoming, it has a history of being one of the most welcoming cities in the world. Things like you mentioned in Tanzania, things have hardened politically over the last decade as well for several reasons. But there is still a lot of solidarity as well. So this question of welcoming rich and vibrant groups of people, I mean, there are benefits and costs, aren't there? And the question of support and livelihoods, can you unpack for us a little bit the economics, how it works really? What are some of the threats and challenges and some of the opportunities? Well, I suppose people often see large numbers of refugees coming into country as a threat in terms of taking jobs and accessing services. And although, yes, there are impacts on sort of, you know, you've got more children in schools, you've got more people wanting to access healthcare, and there are people looking for housing and looking for jobs. And there are impacts on those markets at night. We should also be thinking about how, yeah, how we harness the sort of skills and experiences of those populations. And I think one of the things that for me is really important to note is this question about sort of humanitarian funding. So humanitarian funding is often very significant. And at the moment, at one point, it was reported that one camp in Jordan, Zatteri Camp, was reported that $500,000 a day to run. And that camp, I think, was established in maybe 2013. It's been around a long time. And you think about the amount of resources that camp is absorbing. Then you start to think, well, what could you have achieved in Jordan's towns and cities if that money had been some of that money been invested in services for everybody? What kind of industries might have sprung up, or would you have managed to improve the situation around water security? I mean, these are kind of really difficult questions to answer, but camps are meant to be temporary things. But yet people aid agencies and donors pour money into them sometimes for decades. And they're often perhaps not in the most appropriate places, as we've been talking about. I mean, camps in Tanzania are really quite remote. Camps in Kenya are also in quite sort of semi-arid, quite difficult regions. We're pouring aid money into those places when actually perhaps supporting refugees to live in urban areas and supporting the systems that they use would be better for local economies. I mean, it's hard. We don't have the data to prove that, but I think slowly with our research, that's something we want to start looking at. So I suppose sort of things like how you integrate the sort of different approaches to the right to work. I know that you've said to me the sort of the right to work quote unquote is highly contentious and political and quite difficult to understand. And I get that. But presumably if people are going to be there for a long time or they have skills to bring or there's a particular recipe that can combine with a local community, presumably the different ways of doing that are things to think about. Are there other sort of benefits or approaches that you think are worth mentioning now or reminding us of? I think there's one thing that I think I've admitted to say is that most refugees in towns and cities get no assistance at all. And although it's different actually in the Middle East right now because there are so many refugees in towns and cities as Dina mentioned, but in most of sub-Saharan Africa, if you're a refugee in an urban area, you really don't get assistance. And this has really come to the fore recently on the issue of COVID. There was an announcement by the authorities in Uganda that refugees outside of camps would get no food assistance. I mean, there was an outcry. We heard from our partners who, you know, refugees who organize refugee organization in Kampala. I mean, there was an outcry about this. You know, these are very vulnerable people and they were being excluded from food assistance and were told, well, if you want food, then go back to the camp. And this is like a real affront to the human rights of refugees who should have the right to the freedom of movement and the right to freedom to work. And yet so often these rights are denied and they really are some of the most vulnerable relations. I mean, this is sort of assumption that refugees who go to camps these refugees may have well have been living in urban areas before they were forced to flee because of conflict. We have an assumption that all refugees, you know, that they know how to till the land and that they're all rural people. I mean, that's really not true. And I think that there's a lot of assumptions around who refugees are, why they are where they are, that need to be broken down. And if people are vulnerable in living in urban areas, then we need to be sort of getting the humanitarian community to think about how to assist those people. And in some ways it's not, as you've said, it's not just about assistance. It is about participation, isn't it? It is about working together to sort of build self-reliance and local integration. Dina, do you want to add anything on this last point around, you know, the pros and cons of funding models or the right to work or different approaches we might be able to see? Yes, I'll just follow up on Lucy's example to mention, despite all those issues that urban refugees in particular go through, refugees do seem to choose urban areas. So for example, refugees that are in camps in Jordan did not have any choice. They were directed to the camps when they crossed the borders. But numbers indicate that at least 17,000 left, even though outside of the camps, if they did not go through the process in a certain way, because there were no permits to become urban refugees, you would lose a lot of that humanitarian assistance. So we know that people still prefer to be in cities. So like Lucy said, you know, the need to be able to recognize that and support that so that people can live the dignified lives they want to live rather than direct them in certain ways. And so although there are no large-scale studies on the motivations of refugees, I think that's where the project that Lucy spoke about, that I'm working with her on, can really make a difference. Thank you. Is it fair to say that, you know, for those of us not engaged on the issue all the time, you know, there tends to be this reinforcement of camps type presentation through the media when crises happen. But actually what I'm hearing is there is a considerable amount of innovation and different thinking and approaches and methods for trying to change the relationship and understanding around how people fare in either cities or camps and their motivations and how they can contribute. Is that fair? Is this a space that's opening out to new ideas? Lucy? Yes, I think it is. It's a slow process. IID's actually been involved in this type of work for quite some time. We ran a project called the Urban Crisis Programme that had funding from DFID and worked closely with the International Rescue Committee. And through that project program, we were trying to bring urban development specialists together with humanitarians and kind of bridge that gap. They do tend to speak very different languages. They work different time frames. You know, there's sort of humanitarians about saving lives, acting very quickly. And yet you have to do that carefully in urban areas to make sure you're not actually preventing sustainable urban development. So these conversations between urban development actors and humanitarian agencies have been going on for a few years now, and there is something called the Global Alliance for Urban Crisis that IID is a member of. That's precisely that. It's a new platform. It's trying to bring together all the different types of people that should be involved in these conversations. So that's humanitarians and development agencies I've mentioned, but also built environment professionals like planners, architects, engineers, and networks of municipal authorities and academics like us as well. So yes, this is open for these conversations, but it's still not a natural habitat. The urban area is not a natural habitat for humanitarians. So there's still quite a lot of understanding that needs to be gained. We like to finish with a question about the change we want to see, hope to see, need to see. So for you, Lucy, what's the change you want to see first and foremost? I'd like there to be sort of change in mindset around refugees' rights to live in urban areas and towns and cities and for us as a collective to be focusing on how we can make those things happen, make urban areas, towns and cities more welcoming, more productive places for refugees. Thinking about how we invest humanitarian resources and supporting those who are most vulnerable, but also working with city systems so that everybody benefits. So improving lives in informal settlements for both the people who were living there already and the newer arrivals. And that's what we're trying to do as IIDs to work with our partners who have been, you know, for many decades engaged in informal settlement upgrading and making sure that we bring in the refugee perspective into those discussions at the level of the community and the local government as well. So as far as I'm after change in mindset, there's no reason why refugees shouldn't be living in towns and cities if that's where they want to go. And I'd like people to recognise that and stop making it happen. And Kevin, from your work, is there a particular change that you think could just make that difference? Yeah, I think kind of building on what Lucy said, change in mindset, change in perspective and giving my own example, I guess, coming, I've worked many years in international development, so I kind of bring that perspective. And the more I discuss with humanitarians in the sector, dealing with energy and the camps, the more I kind of realise that I myself had the wrong perspective. I kind of, there's disjointed planning between humanitarian and development actors in general. So Lucy was talking about the vocabulary of urban builders versus humanitarian and how difficult it can be to discuss. And I think that's the same with humanitarian and kind of development sectors in general. And my own analysis initially was, humanitarians need to really reach out and to development actors and build more on that. But actually, I've had deep discussions actually with my wife who is a longtime humanitarian, has worked in numerous complex emergencies. And after these discussions, I realise actually it makes more sense for the development actors who have the long-term funding structures, who have the long-term planning and the space to think kind of bigger and more development oriented. They're the ones that need to reach out to the humanitarians who are, as Lucy mentioned, kind of more focused on the most vulnerable people and being focused in these kinds of things. So I think in terms of shifting perspectives, it's quite important going forward. That's really interesting. That's a good call to action for us. Nina, from your perspective, what do you see as an important change? So I'll start with a slightly personal story if that's okay. So I mentioned earlier a man's history as a place of welcome and reception, and that's actually how I ended up there. My grandparents, who were forcibly displaced, went first to Cairo and then came to London. And then my grandfather got a letter from his brother who had gone his own route to Amman, sent him a letter to London and said, they're very welcoming here to refugees and my grandparents moved. And yeah, and here I am today. So I think for me, really what needs to be done is to not think of just refugee assistance, but to start to think more about reception and building cities that can be receivers of dignity, a bit like Lucy was saying, to sort of think not of refugees as this population, dehistoricized all over the world, this category of refugees, but rather as a group of people who, if there are structures of reception to receive them, can really thrive and be part of creating really exciting encounters in the new places where they settle, regardless of whether they choose to go back when circumstances permit or not. Dina, thank you very much. It's really heartwarming to hear that personal story and a strong call to all of us to think about this in a different way and to see potential. Thank you all very much indeed for a really interesting conversation. It was really good to hear from you and our partners and colleagues in Nairobi. And we look forward to your listening to this podcast and others in our series. Many thanks. So please leave us your feedback and comments at soundcloud.com slash the IID, that's all one word. There you can also listen to previous podcasts and IIDs Make Change Happen series. The podcast is produced by our in-house communications team. For more information about IID and our work, visit our website at www.ied.org.


Well, thank you very much all of you for joining us in what's supposed to be or at least hopefully will be a very exciting session It's a Wednesday afternoon. That's a lot more people than I thought they will be It's a weekday afternoon. I know why I'm here I would pass up no chance to hang with two wonderful ladies Extremely prolific producers in the entertainment industry starting with Bollywood of course MA entertainment both of you I guess started about a decade ago decade plus I think 11 years ago and in that time if IMDB serves me, right? You guys have 24 productions to your credit already I think Madhu, Hojwani, Monisha Adwani you deserve a bigger honor applause than you've got so far Now obviously we can discuss Diversity inclusivity and in your context I can see two areas Which will be very very relevant one is the obvious one Which is the fact that both of you are women in what is traditionally been seen as a very male dominated industry That is entertainment in general and we'll touch upon that at some point for sure but I think the more important one in my mind is the fact that Both of you also happen to be not from this industry Which has largely been dominated by a few film families over years Of course a lot changed with corporalization There were studios that came up from those studios many people stepped out started their own companies as well But you guys literally came from somewhere else and started out Monisha Madhu, I'm going to start with first asking you what were the industries and businesses that you were part of Before you got into it. I hear you were part of four to five businesses Monisha. Man, you're very kind Actually, in a sense, I don't think we stop being part of different businesses. Madhu and I continue to support young entrepreneurs This is a fantastic form. That's in fact recognized that earlier. I I'm really delighted firstly to be here and thanks for asking us what we've done before this We were in the human resources business We ran a recruitment company which was founded way back in 1996 Which grew to become one of the largest in India was acquired by Randstad We were I was managing director for Randstad India their first managing director actually, I think one of their first female managing directors to way back and Madhu held the executive search business So we came literally from no background to the movie business other than being the ones who should say that Friday Including the fact that you know, I have a brother. I mean we share parents, right? Nikhil and I and he was in the movie business always and I had never watched his movie as a privilege Earlier before it would be released not one of those trial show Experiences which now we host has produced us. I used to literally go two weeks later Go stand in the line. Why two weeks later though. So very often. I was working. I was traveling and he would always call it in So you saw Calhona how two weeks after release really Two weeks later, and the only film I saw probably in a Tragic show was Jhani Chowk to China and then when I Maybe that's the one you shouldn't have seen No, you have no idea and I come out of Madhu and I it's a cold day in Cold night in London and we come out shivering and both of us looking What was that and Nikhil goes up and he says What do you think I said well your poster promised one thing the movie was something else He's who do you think you are now one name the critic he called me. He said you think you're this person and I said who's This person. I mean, okay I can see Komal Nata. He said you think you're Komal Nata Who she of course Komal Nata No clue and that's how rim far removed we were from the business and little did I know literally two years from then We were sitting with him Madhu and I and he called us to start this business He told us we'll take us to lunch and he told us that this is a great business to be in they're always going to You know producers get to travel to exotic places. Look at where I've shot in New York in London So Madhu and I thought well, okay, this seems to be you know a nice progression. We're retiring from the recruitment business We've sold the company now Golden handcuffs have come off. Why not and You know the first place we shot it it was the underbelly of amdabad The next place we shot and we went to shoot airlift You a you think Dubai we went to Russell Kaiman, which is literally, you know, one of the most simple Pudumentary parts of the UAE. So it wasn't any glitz no glamour and even now I mean look at the shows we've done when you look at Mumbai Diaries Empire looks glamorous looks grand, right? But I mean putting such shows together takes takes us into a lot of grace. Uzbekistan was put up in But look really really like You know, we our intentions were to shoot in Uzbekistan, but In your case, I mean I can see Somewhere where money comes from the sense of brother was in the movie business had been also a producer, right? Leading up for most of his films right after his first Were you were you like drawn to this as a movie buff or how did this happen? Be honest. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, be honest. Obviously. So, you know When Nikhil approached us it was it was a thought that was farthest from my money and to be honest So what did you have in your mind once you have sold a company and made made billions? I'm assuming so, you know, you didn't correct me. You actually made billions. Did you why? Why did you make I mean this I think that's But you know to be honest, I think I'm myself have you know started out very early in our careers and we've Been fortunate as friends to have worked together and build companies, etc. And when we sold our previous company, of course We were coming off a very drooling couple of years. And so It was the farthest from my mind, right? And so when Nikhil approached well, what was in your mind at that time? To be honest, we had golden handcuffs. And so I was traveling, you know Okay, I'm so not a corporate person. What's a golden handcuff? So essentially it sounds very cool But is it really as cool as it sounds? So you basically can't join a rival firm that's because you have this particular clause in your contract So there's the money and go chill for how long? So it had been about two years Okay, and so when Nikhil approached us the idea was he wanted to set up a banner I think he was looking for like-minded producers or who would constantly sort of have his back and You know, he would be able to sort of you know, give his creativity more wins and and moonshine myself have you know Had a pretty decent Business career so he turned to us and said that this is something that I'd like to do and Honestly, we had absolutely no idea of how this business is run And I was extremely skeptical because for me, it's always about you know, the the hard data Which is the numbers does it work does it not work? balancing of books, etc Operations, you know very brass-tacks and so I was extremely skeptical Monisha being you know, the ever-optimist of the two of us said that I think perhaps It's very similar to what we did in the HR business, which was when we entered that business it was very unregulated and we saw the Trajectory of that sector change as you know corporate as it got corporatized and the film industry back in 2011 was at a very interesting point and You know just to give you a sense movies up until that point used to be shot on film Right and and when we made D-Day, it was one of the early films that actually got done on digital So so clearly that was an inflection point for the sector and and in in this past You know 11 years that that that we've been in the business Incrementally, we've seen it get more and more regulated which has been really an interesting time for us to have gotten associated with the business and And so yeah, so you know we started out as well your movie buff before. Oh absolutely I mean we've all grown up including Nikhil on a diet of Amitabh Bachchan films and you know, I mean When is there not an instance in your life where a Hindi song is not playing for that, you know It's not considered a niche thing.  I'm thinking to myself when I see a big Song sequence how many dancers how much did this cost? Where did they shoot this? You know, you're just Setting every frame or why didn't we make it? Oh, why did we not make it? Oh, why did you not make it? Yeah, you know, right feel that I mean ever so often now because there's such great content being churned out Have you had instances where there were things that were offered to you and I want you to be really really candid today It was just the three of us and a few people here Where you said no to something and then you looked at it on the screen site. Why did we not make it? But I hope but I hope I'm telling you that came to you first it came And the writer very sweetly sat in front of me told me, you know, this is a story. I think you will get it It's very progressive. I said sure tell me and he says 60 year old woman gets pregnant And he narrated the whole thing to me and I told him I said Dude, you're a good storyteller. I can't figure this out and I didn't cut to two years later I'm sitting at Inox and you know, we had a film simultaneous to them release called Bazaar which did reasonably well, but I Mean Bazaar was always in a 20-seater theater in the multiplex and this was in the 200-seater And I should be sitting outside and listening to everybody go So yeah regret and I tell that to a lot of writers who come and when they tell me what they're doing And I tell them listen, I'm here to support you. That's great You're doing that. I'm very jealous that you're doing this as well And I think it's just good to admit that because it also makes people realize and feel valued and a lot of Technicians in this business. I feel you know, I think it's such a skewed industry in a sense because 20% of the The the headline has actually land up getting a lot of the attention. It's like the Mona Lisa, right?  Now when you move from an HR business practice, I'm assuming an HR consultancy firm You come to a place which is also very HR led in a real sense. It's a people's business It's people and their craft and their talent that shows everything else can be rented you hire everything else, right? What is it that you found that was very different in this industry from the ones that you'd worked in before I find that there's very little and like you rightly said man The industry largely attracts a lot of legacy family lifestyle owned in businesses It's nothing wrong with that because some of the largest corporations that run our country today a nation builders because they started with that Multi-generation approach And the film industry is no different for a hundred year or a hundred odd year old sector It has a lot of these legacy companies which are there respectfully The challenge is that it's all driven towards supporting their lifestyles those family multi-generational And because of the nature of the business being gig economy There is a very little propensity towards Reinvesting back to grow the operational side of the business and that's what the picture. It's all good. You're Bentley. Yeah, right It's a real strain On the way and then we sit and lament that why is it that the theatrical business of this country is after all these years It's an inventory cumulatively of 10,000 crores 10,000 crores is the size of a mid-cap company on the BSE and so and this is what we consider to be the soft power The greatest generator of influencers in our society, right? And that's the size. It's it stayed at It's just grown and and most of that growth 50% of that growth has come largely in the last four years So thanks to the advent of tech of technology platforms embracing the development of content And that's somewhere the floor. So that's the first challenge I feel the investment to grow the sector has been and I think the second learning for me different from other corporations has been Or industries has been patients You know in this it's it you even when you plant a seed as a child And you know you should do that experiment where you put a seed and you keep watering it over the cotton And it starts giving you the shoes. There's still a predictability in that. There's no predictability in the content business You are always on the input side, which is the only part which is Controllable the output is a variable. You you can make the best film with the best headliners ever Top actors at top studio and no act no Right, so for me it takes a lot of patience to see that cycle through and come back to work So, yeah, I think these are the two big learnings I think for me in this business, you know the successes the The adulation around it is Very it's a big high and the failures when you have the failure or you experience the failure it's firstly so public and The silence after that is definitely and you have to drag yourself back to work You know and so I think that when I compare it to any other business or even our past businesses You didn't have this kind of you know You're constantly you're in an aquarium and you're the fish You know and so you're constantly getting on a weighing scale on a day-to-day basis in a sense because you work for an 18 month Cycle to put together a project and it's no different right whether you make a film Which has an a list actor or you make a film which has you know and also ran It's the same effort you still go through a cycle of 12 to 18 months and at the end of that This is the outcome. So it's it can be very uplifting and at the same time can be very And so does that lead to some element of insecurity as well a far more rivalry that you would see Compared to other business and the reason I'm saying that is because when you're talking about 18 months cycle For instance in that 18 months you actually put together a company and that company is that film Yeah, and they all come together and then they all dismantle and go to various other companies, right? It's not like other businesses where they just keep making the same product every time this new company makes a new product Which is which is the film one? Do you think that leads to creator in security people are too bothered about what others are doing? Because that's what the general perception in any case second and there's a part that I want you to delve on a little later and further as well is There is it also perhaps one of the most insular places given the family these spoke of the Bentley's and their houses in Portugal They actually don't know what's happening in the world outside of them when you compare it to other business Which have greater interlink you know linkages with with others first. Yeah, tell me about the insecure Did you feel this was a little more insecure than you've dealt with before most definitely and you know there's a term for it, which is the crab mentality and It's very much prevalent in this business But I think the way that you know we insulate ourselves from it is you know to keep to have a Monday-to-Monday approach as Monisha puts it which is that The way that you know, you're able to keep yourself going is to know that you're coming back to work irrespective of the outcome of what you do and And and fortunately for us I think the fact that we don't come from this business So we don't have antecedents beyond the fact that we've been in this business for about a decade Once we proverbially cross the ceiling Quite literally so huh? Yeah, pretty much so and and so and so it's very important for us To stay grounded and to keep in perspective that you know We come back Monday-to-Monday and we build this as a business and we keep reinvesting in what we're creating That's the way that we approach it and to add to that I think what we've done differently in these 11 years man because we've added People back into the system. So today when people turn around and say how the hell is this company do you know 10? Projects a year of you're doing four films six shows and they're not small each one I mean the shows are massive How is this company able to put out a rocket boys a Mumbai diaries an empire gone by Niki Shikharvati all at the same time? And it's really because we sat back about five years ago six years ago and said listen We've got to do this differently We've got to build the infrastructure because there is this thing out there that's coming We're talking about being here at the streaming summit, right? We and I'm saying this in modestly We called it out way back in 2011 when we started this company and it took a little convincing Nikhil, but you know I said listen this is what's coming I've sat in rooms with Siddharth Roy Kapoor with the with Vijay Singh and they and I've said well guys What about digital I was thinking about that and they've just looked yeah, yeah, how soon can you make a film? That's like kalmuna home, and I'm like normal. Let's talk about digital and now It turn you know tables utter because this is what the future we anticipated that man And which is why we built operationally in the company So today when somebody turns and comes to us with an idea We're able to back it the second thing we did is if you look at our projects Find the ones Nikhil headlines most of them are new directors new technicians first time I was whether it's in the field of art whether it's in the field of Styling whether it's in the field of You know it's a cinematography every aspect of the business. We've always tried and taken bets on new talent And today even when we are then it was a budgetary constraint today We've got thankfully some premium attached to us. So the budgets are more generous. We will still back new talent Not because there's more margin to be hacked But the idea is that if we don't start building the infrastructure for this business We're going to stay at 10,000 Cros turn over for theatrical with any talk about why is that dying? We've not built that Demand we've not catered to it. So I think that's the kind of perspective with which we come also Vanities left at the ceiling most people don't see they don't even know who we are so you don't guys you guys don't hang around in in These cool parties that you were promised by Nikhil when you came on board firstly He doesn't go to any of them himself. It's a bit of a hermit. Yeah We're calling it. He has a great life. He enjoys what he does, but he does it with his family and likewise We also have that distinction. I think everybody in this room will appreciate the fact work life balance is Applicable everywhere in this business Sometimes I find that not sometimes most of the times I find that those are blurred lines and that's where the security comes in because You're constantly looking at how the staff at home are Perceiving you you're concerned about what the person at the nuclear is going to think of you Whereas we've been trained fairly with middle-class values that listen boss. This is your work.  It's as simple as thinking of parties I think none of us can keep our eyes open beyond 10 30 and we are very early risers, which is very Alien to this business. We begin our days and I mean Nisha myself all three of us work with this discipline by six o'clock our chats go live Internally clearly right because if you were to like scheduled a meeting with somebody at six o'clock in the morning Maybe Akshay Kumar In his gym, which is also a lot of urban legend I it's not like he's some serious morning person is just things that people say to also I'm sure he is but it's not like he does nothing else but but makes up Narrations at 5 30 a.m. So it's it's it's true because we've worked with Tested you and me whether we were standing outside waiting to take him in the car to the set In when you were shooting a lift and at six in the morning that too and we were there And that's what makes it different from all the traditional producers that we've had over a period of time Right including ones who probably set up their own companies starting out from corporations and studios at work There is a lot of chit chat is a lot of gossip who's doing what was doing something that you may not see so much of in Say cement industry. I'm pretty sure they don't know who's who's sleeping at the womb But that's the conversation you still you still make but that's the culture we come from right and so When we when we did start this business even the approach to the business was to see how can we build? Predictability into the business. How do you look at the various metrics? How do you look at spreadsheets? Not only for film budgets, but for your annual budget, which is an alien concept because like you Rightly said it's such a gig economy. It just goes from project to project to project. Nobody is looking at building the whole You know the company first thing and that's what we started with I think there are a few companies that are doing it very well now But they look at what somebody is doing with applause whether you look at what a boobah and Karuna trying to do with her What you see happening with? Well, I think clean slate is also getting in there, you know Dino's trying to professionalize it So I think I think a lot of the independent guys are now getting there back together and realizing that you have to scale you have to invest and Build that infrastructure. Yeah, I mean but the people that you mentioned are all typically verse over guys including Karan Jawor, I mean how the mighty fall in it was a South Bombay guy, but really is now bound Happy about you calling him a verse over huh? I said he's not going to be happy about you Well, that is the truth. Isn't it? That's where we went to the same school Myself So what happens when a South Bombay person enters a situation like Bollywood?  Come on first first star. I met was actually Kumar. Okay. Maybe somebody else. We've heard that she come out Yeah, yeah, we met Amitabh Bachchan when we were very early I think after we set up the company and we were trying to do a film together and you cannot not be Ostruck, right? I mean Amitabh Bachchan is Amitabh Bachchan and then there's the rest of the but does it go down over a Time or do you remain? Firstly tell me where you snoot. So are you well? No, not at all We were absolute fangirls Across but in Bollywood in general Well, you know the two instances you talked about I think it's neither because like I said nor do we take a snooty approach Nor are we you know enamored by it? We just take a very Middle path approach, which is this is our work and that's how we come at it I don't think it's either and Honestly actors feel a little Initially, they feel a little intimidated.   First, they start by saying we speak English too well I've had a couple of them turn around and actually English is very good. I Had a couple of them actually call out somebody call up and ask her Kisi a mujhe bola ki apne kutte ko wet ke pass le gaya. Uska matlab kya hai. So You know, but to be fast the Hindi film industry, so yeah, I totally get it So we then switch to speaking Hindi and then our Hindi is that school Hindi Which is very true. This is South Bombay Hindi basically I don't know. We are not that caricatured driver kya katta hai and all that. We'll speak proper Hindi But I think what I think what's really funny is the fact that and I can see it. I've sat with I remember very early I don't remember Madhu. We met with Ranbir Kapoor.  He's looking at the two of us Jona, South Bombay both of you, right? And I said, how is that relevant? I can tell I can tell and it was like a triumphant moment for him that he could call it out And whereas for us, we don't go into the situation thinking either We ran a company before which had 1800 employees all over the country 42,000 indirect employees and I can assure you There was probably about 10 of them came from South Bombay So you don't get to that number by being you know Secretarian or turning around and actually turning around and bringing your prejudices into it We have we have to keep a very open and we are that way we're built to support talent I think that's one of our intrinsic qualities today Did you find this place also a little more male dominant than other businesses you've been part of as women Do you really stand out in that sense? That's definitely the case. I think the entertainment industry has predominantly been male dominated Especially on the business side forget about the narratives on the business side I mean today if you look at I was just reading about the fact that you know there was this film companion report You know the Oh Mania I mean I think the you're looking at technicians or HOD's you know on the filmmaking side Not exceeding a number of 15% of the which is still 15% higher than it was say about 30 years ago Perhaps and when you when you compare that with the South industry we fare very well in Bollywood But it's still a very dismal number. So yes, you're absolutely right extremely male dominated But what what we've seen happening, you know over the past I'd say four years is there is a definite shift And you can even see it in the narrative and I think what OTT has done today is it has democratized the kind of content that we are seeing You're beginning to see the female gaze on screen a lot more there are women directors You know there are some departments where the number is dismal like cinematographers 2% of the number of cinematographers that we have are women 2% it's as low as that so so yeah you're absolutely right extremely male dominated but I think it's changing Of course we still have a long way to go because it helps to have women leaders because that's where the change is going to come from From your perspective but this is one thing that you constantly mentioned Madhu is last four years last four years And the last four years obviously talk about OTT revolution that you guys have been really very much been part of But the flip side to that is and a lot of people have issue with it they're talking about how Bollywood has been completely decimated as a result I mean you take I saw you at the Amazon Prime Video slate launch and practically that was basically Bollywood there As home entertainment is being serviced by Bollywood industry which should be doing theatrical releases where you see south completely dominating Based on of course only three films so far but those numbers are huge Do you think it's it's an unfair criticism that essentially a lot of Bollywood producers became vendors for OTT platforms Leaving aside a really big industry theatrical right across the country that was still 60% revenue for a movie Well I think that you know what has played a very important role in this transition has been the pandemic We know that during the 24 months that and we're still not out of it right I mean but during those 24 months a lot of producers saw the transition to OTT as an alternate to survival I mean if you if you didn't get on that bandwagon either you had the ability or the staying power to tile over that period of two years Or then you found a way to make it work during that period and OTT is what has actually kept a lot of producers going Having said that I don't believe that it's the demise of the theatrical experience I think we will probably see it come if you've already seen it with the south films right I just think that we have to buck up the kind of stories that we bring to the theatres have to be you know either spectacle films Or they have to be compelling enough for you to come to the theatres because it's not like people are not going to the theatres No they clearly are they're just not going to watch Bollywood movies apparently because series of lobs and three amazing hits from the south Which were completely unheard of in terms of the lobsideness of revenues right There are a couple of things there I think that if you look at the like I would make the reference of 10,000 crores Mark that breaks down to actually roughly about a 10 million footfall, a unique footfall that is committed to watching cinema in our country Going to the theatres out of a 1.3 billion population it's just 10 million That one crore is spending a thousand rupees for annum which means they're buying on an average take 250 rupees for tickets a year Now what are we talking about is it because of the fact that we're not converting more and it's all about the reach We did at one point we've not had enough screens when we talk about the streaming revolution in these four years You've also seen a growth of cinema screens you've had single screens turning into multiplex going into 2, 3, 4, 5 screen formats And all of that has come in at the same time the pandemic is a watershed moment that has had a transformation of societal choices So we put that to the side if you look at what we've done as an industry right now we've been really catering to a very sliver of an audience It's just so stereophonic in the years of the people who actually consume that content or make that content so we think that it's the world We also recognise we fail to acknowledge the fact that a lot of the influences that come out of this industry are actually serving the larger 78,000 crore advertising industry that sits Right and now that is even exponentially burst further with the way paid partnerships work or endorsements online And even social media right It's massive, it's massive right so when you look at actually what we are doing over here is we are like an ecosystem which is producing for a lot of the other thought leadership Whether it's in a consumer environment, whether it's in an ideological environment but that's what we are actually doing as this little cottage industry And we've got to transform that Two, I think that when you look at a theatrical when the South content that's coming across it's catered to a family audience What's happened predominantly with Hindi content and I don't think it's just about what the OTT provides, the OTT industry provides We have intentionally segmented our audience and what we've done in that manner is we were quite happy turning on saying hey you know what this is going to be a Saturday film not a Friday film Which means that I'm okay if the film comes and then people word of mouth will come in on a Saturday I'm happy for this to be a Monday to Friday film We actually started classifying things in that manner but we were also responding to audience consumption patterns So I think it's a chicken and egg situation as to what is going where I just know one thing there's more content being made today than there was yesterday And there's more content that's going to be made tomorrow You may see a lot of headlines grab that saying that oh you know this platform is not performing, theaters are not performing But people are consuming more and more content and more organized that sector becomes The better it's going to be the more stories are going to be told and that's where that whole term democratization will come Because you'll have a larger audience, a lot larger population serving a larger audience Well you know we started this conversation somewhat with how as against other industries that you've been part of this is the most public of them all right Everything that you put out everyone has something or the other to say sometimes good, sometimes not so good You are also three completely different individuals yourselves You both of you and of course Nikhil Adwani who was a filmmaker and has been a filmmaker all through But even before you guys entered he was always there I want to know like do you guys have conversations about what you've put out and sometimes you like something and the other two don't How does that work? All the time Be candid, tell me something that you loved and the others did not Well there's a lot of stuff that we constantly you know chide each other about for the choices that you know we've made But when we do make some anything yeah yeah but when we do make anything you know we commit ourselves to it and then of course Notwithstanding the performance we still hold on to our opinions so for instance Munisha is very aligned to mass cinema And you know Satyamev Jayate, Marjava those were attributed the choices you know to Munisha And of course and the successes and you know a lot of those choices Then there is you know stuff like Mumbai Diaries or the gritty stuff that Nikhil has transitioned to making Which again sometimes we get on board with sometimes we don't get on board with But I personally you know of course I think Rocket Boys we were unanimous with But there are Hang on I have to confess here you heard it here first When Rocket Boys was being put together I was really skeptical and I've had private conversations with Nikhil And I said Nikhil really do you think that we can get this audience to hook into the story of two notable scientists Nation builders but I mean where's the reference to context and he was so determined He says no watch it see what's right till the day it came out it was beautiful when we were watching as it was turning out And of course there was a lot of heart bleed in seeing the kind of production we were having to manage But at the end of it I can tell you that the love that that show has received and the interest and it's just It's just surpassed any of my skepticism we were Nikhil and I were sold from the word go We just we just loved the premise and and of course the way it turned out was it just surpassed our own expectation Yeah, I mean there are there's gonna be awards or the shape of media awards for 40d platforms But of course Rocket Boys normally part of it because it's 2022 but I can say with with fair amount of stuff Watched over the year so far it is absolutely the best show that came out on your new platform in 2022 Congratulations, I'm not just saying this because you guys are here but it literally was something we hadn't seen before How much does the platform it appears on matter to you guys because a lot of people would not have seen it purely Because there aren't that many subscribers to a Sony live as compared to say a Netflix or even for that matter I mean of course hotstar and the others are bigger numbers much bigger numbers So I think of course the platform matters but I will say this that you know Sony pulled out all the stops on marketing the show And they did a fantastic job and and I think and not only backing it but you know one is to of course you know put the money down And say that we are going to produce the show but in the in the last mile do everything that it takes to put it out there Because I think that is the most important So what's the model you work on is it that the the platform commissions you or do you make it and then after shopping for the best bidder Is that how it works which of the two would you So so far we've followed the the former which is that we've worked with platforms on a commission model Okay And we're working towards transitioning into the latter I mean that is we ourselves are seeing a growth trajectory for Commission I think Mike what we land up doing is a lot of the stories are generated by us and we then take it out and speak to And we do a lot of precision targeting which is we identify that this is the kind of content that there is an appetite and this platform Or these platforms let's just take it to them and see what they would have to how they would have to react to it I mean and I can tell you besides I mean Mumbai Diaries for instance It was literally One meeting with a partner and they're then head of the company and we You know we were sitting there and she said what do you really want to make and he says you know what I've always wanted to make a medical drama I'm a huge fan of grace anatomy I want to make something which is booted But I want to make it in Bombay and I want to always give an old to my city And she turned around and she says that's the line okay send me an email and let's get your people to talk to our people and Let's develop this and it has organically grown into where we're shooting the second season right now the third season is being written It's a very exciting show and there's a lot of love that's come for it so again it's it's it's just really where we Learn it wasn't an accidental thing. It was really he knew Amazon's the place where this is going to get the platform and the love and I mean that's how we built up So in that sense if you were compare we were to compare OTT platforms to the typical Bollywood model Which would be a star-driven system where you actually go to a movie star and you pitch that particular script And the movie star says yes, which means that film will get made Do you think OTT is the new star in this particular format? It's it's the platform that says yes and everything else falls into place For the money sure but I mean I don't think that the movie stars have that there's a guy called Gushan Kumar And there are a bunch of other studios was similar to him who actually like I said everyone goes looking for Mona Lisa There's Da Vinci and then there's the rich family that commissioned the portrait Nobody really looks at those headlines, but those are really where you're right. That's where the chips fall And I think and with a little immodesty and I hope I don't sound arrogant but it What the OTT platform has done is it's given creators Makers producers the opportunity to be the stars And that credibility has transferred into us being able to actually Get actors and and break through the star system and put them out in ways that nobody expected them to Because of the fact that we can invest so much in character-driven content And it's fascinating how a lot of these actors people when they see them on hoardings or when they see them on the show And they go oh gosh do you know he's the guy who was you know with Ranveer singing in that movie And he was singing a song to him and guess what he's Omibaba now And it's so fantastic I mean people turn around and say Dino Mordia But he is a villain and I don't think in Dino's wildest dreams he would have ever thought That he's going to be part of such conversations or he's going to be on 5000 hoardings around the country right And that's something that we feel really proud of that we've been able to and not just MA When you look at all the producers on OTT we've been empowered to actually build our content in that manner And make the story make the production the real star Couldn't have put it better these are two women empowering a lot of talent in the city Through OTT platforms of course at this point but I really hope this translates to theatrical releases too Ladies and gentlemen Madhu Bojwani, Munisha Adwani Thanks guys, thank you


tional ways of thinking about heritage speakers despite being so involved in research and being knowledgeable because I think it's easy to point to the person who tells us oh your Spanish is horrible that's an easy person to identify I think it's harder to look at the nuanced ways in which we're still following these old models in our teaching and me being a person I need to do that often thank you in the chat they're asking you Lucides if you could create an infographic see that another is a challenge yeah it'd be great yeah I would I think that we need to be more transparent we need to say there's a term cognitive speaker that's been around what does that usually mean it means that people empower it means people in the capital city but we understand that for example the New York variety of English is not the English of the US so we were more transparent with our kids and we didn't think that they wouldn't be able to understand these social linguistic concepts they can if we give them examples in real life I mean in the US or British English versus US English I think we're not being we're not being transparent with them because we don't think that they'll understand and that's something I have to work on so yeah so I do world language teacher education and this is just the end of my second year and I've been thinking a lot about this and I was I had to redesign the program last year so I really am trying to bring in more heritage focus to the program because my students will the most of them will teach Spanish but the others will teach Portuguese and French which are also in our area especially with Portuguese a heritage language so I start I try to start with that kind of the politics of languages in the US and whose languages are we teaching and that like the colonial colonizer piece as a starting point and like how did we learn our languages and all of that piece like the personal story first then get into really the methods of teaching languages so that that is always in the first thing that students are thinking about when they're planning but I mean I still have a lot to learn and a lot I can improve on but for me that's important for yeah for our teacher candidates and I try to find as Eric mentioned that they need to go observe heritage teachers but we need more of them too so kind of like this chicken and this is a great topic for a workshop next year right so keep it in mind somebody wants to present