Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that means it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly as I move my mic forward Joining me as always Is my co-host Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello friends So Tom today, we're gonna talk about shooting something. I know is near and dear to your heart. I love shooting. Yeah, indeed I'm wondering why there it is.  Well, you two is really behind today I haven't loaded up and it hadn't started yet. I was just starting to get worried but now it's working All right. Anyway, so we're gonna get in a shooting today We're gonna talk about it in all its many facets and why we're in the shooting meta Why this is that we never really got into the horde meta hashtag horde meta, but what are in shooting meta? What do you mean? We never got into it. Never was out there.  Wow Wow I'm not gonna say it was it was all a myth all an illusion, but we're definitely in the shooting meta now as I think we'll talk about today But first the news All right, man. What do we got? We got some stuff. So we're the rumor engine rumor engine, of course rumor has it Yes so I've got it up on screen and the first thing everybody said was That it looks like the skull from the shoulder of the iron jaws mega boss Sure. Okay. I can see that. I Have a better idea. I Agree, this is definitely not that the type of thing, but go ahead.  Okay of a squig Okay On the helm of on the helm of a ship No, okay Of what a vampire pirates vampire pirates for life, baby. It's just every rumor engine Everyone We got else now Where do we go here from here clearly vampire pirates boy away? I'll tell you what I'll tell you what Okay, no That is it's not a skull Let me tell you why I can prove that okay. Okay, okay One look at the way the thing is wrapped around the teeth. That is flesh not not Bone look at the sheen in the top left Their white paints are matte They don't reflect like that in that kind of a satin shine Meaning this is not a white color. It's a different color Look at the way that you can see the highlight along this ridgeline right here If it were white, you would not see that strong of a ridgeline there because it would be They don't they don't shade white like that. They don't highlight They shade the highlighting and okay fine. I'm revising sure okay. It's our squig airship Yeah, it's not a head at all.   You know what I'm talking about Like a marauder like a like a warning. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's very much what they had Yes, do you remember when there was a claw and we all thought it was a claw? You know, oh neat. It's like us the next thing order, but then it turned out to be that chaos dude Yeah, it's that kind of a setup. So is this not like a symbiote crab claw vampire it mutated thing No, no It's a fleshy cast arm It probably 40 you gotta ruin it for us They also tend to favor that kind of like pinky flesh with With dark bones when they're doing those kinds of chaos models Boring. Yeah, so like a tyrannid claw or a chaos claw or you know at some 40k thing that has fleshy Protrusions like that. That's what it is But they purposely took the square of the picture that makes it look like a skull Yeah, with what looks like an eye. Yep. Yeah, even though it is in fact not that thing at all boring So I never for just to recap Flesh not edge of teeth. That's not how they do. That's not how they model bone teeth like teeth on the edge of bone Shine up here that would not be present on white things that are made of bone edge highlighting in this type That would not be showing like this with that level of contrast on something that was bone So there we go Yes, it feels like autumn lotus said another greater possessed model Maybe it feels like that kind of thing Which is I think what Tom you were referring to because they they clearly borrowed from the the old concept of the possessed when they made Marauders in yeah more hammer age of reckoning.  So that'd be cool Keep in mind by the way, we are very zoomed in here like yes Super zoomed in you can and you can see that on the highlights Yeah, the fact that I can actually see this tiny mistake in a brush stroke Right for what was done with undoubtedly an ultra fine brush tells me that we are definitely Way zoomed in on the model Yeah, so any hoos That's what it is not a skull not anything like that That's what it is. So cool. Cool beans. What else we got? Giants October might be October. We said last week there's September Because we got the thing on Facebook where they spoiled that said the Lumineth come out in early September and the Giants will be along shortly after Okay, great. Awesome. Shortly after is apparently a month and and reasonably I had assumed but it was an assumption That meant great Giants in September right shortly after I think we need to redefine what shortly means Because I don't define a month in those kind of terms But at any rate so be it The reason we think this is because they spoiled the two new black library novels that are coming and The Lumineth one is seems to be on what we understand to be probably the first pre-release date for the rest of the Lumineth, which is the 5th of September and the sons of behemoth audiobook black library novel thing whatever it is is Like the 10th of October. So if if they decide to align it like that then There you go, you know, that would mean no Giants until October So there you go My hope is that's not true I'd rather see these guys sooner than later This will be one of the longest times. We've gone knowing an army existed without it being present and released to us and We're all curious how this model is gonna work. So Like this I say this army this model. It's basically the same thing. Yeah that the one The one box Yeah, the one box plus. It's one old kid that frankly is aging and should have been replaced, but that's okay It can be it can be replaced There are plenty of other things to replace it with in the world So there you go There you go Obviously the new white dwarf is dropping For it's on pre-order this weekend dropping next week. We have nor new jaws of Morick's wig rules new battalions I mean Okay Hey, man. I'm just saying looks pretty interesting looks pretty I I would be more excited if I didn't know it's gonna go away in 11 months. That's fair Like that's totally fair and one of the things I wanted to talk about you're not wrong. Okay, yeah like I see those now and I'm like Okay, what what what handful of events am I gonna be able to get those get those? You know those rules in on a play with and I'm just like Well, they're in the best position like this is the time you want rules in white dwarf. Sure sure You're getting basically the maximum amount of time on it if you get rules in white dwarf in next May Forget they might not as well print those Sure, right because then the GHB comes out a month later and they're like But that's not legal anymore for for tournament play obviously all these things are legal for match play There's not legal for tournament play as it were right Yeah, so I mean I do love the the ability in the battalion the moon jumper stampede that they previewed is like Really good Then all of the all of the gobs all the gob attacks like the fang filled gobs the massive fang filled gobs And the huge fang filled gobs all get plus one damage when they charge like whoa That's your extra damage that would be amazing if it ever saw competitive play Yeah, well, I mean it will because if here's here's what I'll say if you've already got a squig army Like I only tend to you and you and I basically do the same thing, right? We run an army for about a tournament year, right? And then we make we make an army. I make an army for a trip for a season, right? Yeah, so it's actually not that bad to only have a rule that you really like for a year like My point being is if you were in for squigs sure and you already had the army and this drops You're great. That's fantastic for you, right? Like you'll have them for your whole tournament season Boom that you were going to run that army, right? If it was like if it was me and I wanted to do a squig army and I was where I was working on one This would be the greatest present I've ever gotten I agree But in the midst of kovat who knows when that stuff's going to kick back off all fair We're gonna lose we'll lose half of the year like realistically like the best hope we have is maybe january, maybe Maybe yes Yep That's right.  I don't disagree and and it leads me to again to call out That this needs to change. We've said it before on this show. I'll say it again on this show I love printing this extra content white dwarf. This is something that needs to happen It's a great chance. They're doing this because they looked around and clearly saw that the squig stuff was a super cool B people liked it c it needed some help Right. They've said openly that they try to do that With with some of the stuff in white dwarf fantastic. That's great. That's fan. That's wonderful Make it usable a plus now make it usable. It is usable That's not the key make it not go away so fast Right make it usable long term. It should stick around longer than 11 eight five Three months depending on when the white dwarf gets published If it's going to be an issue and you're afraid of like the perpetuity issue You just like throwing a clause For something like this. It's like allegiance abilities, you know, like these types of add-on rules Only stay in perpetuity until a new book addition New book is printed of that thing of that allegiance. Sure. Sure. If you want to blanket rule fine Yep, absolutely. If a new book comes out, then it validates all the old stuff. Yeah And so that if that old stuff is good enough If that old Old stuff is good enough to want to include in the new book then just include it in the new book Otherwise invalidate it with the new next army, you know release. Yeah done And and by the way, somebody said then wears our trogoth battalions I mean look they they've said that's why they do this. They didn't say they plan to address everything We could play that game all day. Why aren't there like 50 50 million blah, blah, blah, right? Of all these things. Sure. They could do any of those things, but it's still a good intention I salute their intention. They are well intentioned. They are doing the right thing That's a fine answer. You gave here's a better one You ready? Okay. Yep. Okay. I mentioned it last week have a list on the site Current tournament legal resources And it lists the white dwarfs and they just stay there They just stay there until you need to remove them And when you publish a new edition or you publish a new book you take them off that list And to buy the buy in that same list is also pdf Links to all that content from white dwarfs from six months ago plus like at the six month mark They roll onto the website in pdf form Because you ain't buying six year six month old white dwarfs. They've already iRMA at that point get out of here So, you know what gets in my crawl?  So here you go I'm gonna address the The storm cast in the room. Okay Okay, sky born slayers I haven't forgotten about you Okay The fact that this battalion Is the only available digitally It's not printed in any current edition of any storm cast book Yep, and yet it has snuck into the ghb points update every single year for the last five years Yep Just be consistent. So either this stuff gets rolled out and it gets phased out and it doesn't exist Or include it like you've done sky born slayers for the last five years It's not in any of the last three printings of the storm cast book Right, and yeah, it's still there. Yeah, no, I agree And again, just simple a simple pdf resources of the old white dwarf battalions on the website seems like the easiest thing in the world Because you literally already have that file In sitting there in in design that you use to compile the white dwarf Just take pages three through seven and print pdf Okay, we're safe to pdf that print Uh couldn't be easier Literally couldn't be easier and get somebody to put it up on the page that's for that like this is This is some basic stuff Like like imagine imagine a world where we have like resources And then for all the online digital stuff, they're just hotlinks To pdfs. Yeah, correct. I mean, that's not weird because we ought to do that with the war scrolls Right, that's already if I go to any model in aos and I look at the the downloads or the rules tab I found that I can download the pdf for it. Cool. Easy peasy like we've already seen we can do it right And so like you again, it's the same deal just Put them rules in a little space In a little space there on the community site where we all get them and then you've got Then you've got the thing that says this is what's legal. This is the current list Like I can do for magic or anything else like that And uh There you go. So so so easy so simple But anyways, despite all that I do like the squig Stuff and it looks cool and that one battalion they shared was awesome. So sure But yes, ultimately they need to fix that but Nonetheless, if you're a squig player, you're excited right now because uh, you're you're about to Reinforcements incoming, right? So that's cool. Yep So how can gw make money off it? I'll tell you very simply Leave having an area of cool rules like that that inspires people means more people buy squig armies later This is the simplest thing in the world. How do you make more money off something? You make a game easier to play more fun to play more interesting to a wider group of people Bottom line baseline expectations. This is this is marketing 101 Okay, and I like they cannot be I know they're not daft enough not to recognize this make the product enticing Yes, and putting stuff like that out there where people can easily find resources and utilize it Helps you sell more product. It's why magic does it. It's why so many games do exactly what I'm describing So, uh There you go Anyways And like I said, I don't mind if they only want to keep them for some amount of time But there's no reason they have to keep like one tournament cycle Sure, maybe that's how long they're legal, but the white dwarf that gets published in may that has aos rules, which by the way happened Right, right. Um, right. Those are gone now. That's dead. That was that that thing had a month and a half before it was dead Yep So I hope nobody planned armies around it So that's that's what I'm trying to hear rid of right. Yeah, so if you want only run it for a year That's cool run it for a year, but then put them on that list for a year He's right. There you go. All right. Anyway, we beat this drum enough next news thing Um Underworld's doc and ij warbands dropping Yeah, the new underworld's daughters of kane and iron jaws warbands are three brutes Or the uh the daughters there both of those look amazing Absolutely fantastic sculpts.  So super cool They just have pretty models. They really do They really do Uh, I think I probably want to eventually pick up and paint both of these Of course. Yeah, I mean because they're amazing. Yeah, absolutely I don't I'm not really concerned so much about the rules like I have the other Warbands for my uh, the other underworld's warband for my my iron jaws Just because they were also really great models the ard boys once I thought they were amazing Right, I think these are just like as I own the army and really enjoyed painting these armies. It just feels like The kind of thing that I want to own and paint Yeah, and like a like man these models give some great conversions. There's a great hag equivalent in here Um, like yeah, like it just this this warband has needed to happen for so long so long um Like yeah, I'm I'm very excited about what they're offering. Yep Yeah, absolutely. These are great. Uh, I doubt that these either of these are gonna have like rules I particularly care about because that's that doesn't matter the case for these things I yeah, it doesn't matter not even at all what I mentioned who doesn't like a bird skull wearing shirtless uh Uh, blanket on what they are brute Brute there you go. I was gonna try to let you get there. I'm gonna go We're gonna say choppy orc, but I knew that wasn't gonna get there. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, sure Uh, but yeah, those are really good And uh, yeah, the new the fact that there's now like a hag You don't have to buy a cauldron to get at it's gonna make that warband to be enticing to people I'm interested to see if that hag works any differently Um, that's that that like I'll say I don't know any world where the iron jaws rules have have rules that are like Makes them any good in iron jaws army. Sure, right? Um But the The daughter's one could actually be like it could end up like a grass rack Or a something like that where it actually ends up depending on the rules Yeah, depending on what that hag is doing and what the other people in the warband are doing because she has the right Keyword to actually be included in battalions. Yep Correct because the battalions are all keyword specific not like unit name specific Right. So like some of the stuff that gets added with the different covens So There might be actually gas there. Yeah, it's like let's not discount that just yet. I'm just saying I don't care Sure, the models are amazing. It's worth a buy either way, but that one could have some potential Uh, yeah, so we'll see how that shakes out. I'll be interested. I think we'll get the pdfs Uh this weekend when they go on pre-order I think they'll the rule this weekend or next weekend. I don't remember when they put up pdfs for that stuff kind of kind of stuff Um, but yeah, super cool. Uh, same reason. I'm interested in what the doc war cry warband ends up with Oh, yeah, because Uh, I want to see us get some sweet assassin Stuff and a lot of those people look like they're like leaping in shadows and being teleporting and move many and stuff And that that's like a unit of 10 that could actually be interesting Uh, because that might be one of those units just like all the war cry stuff It's like you take it in Nines or 10s and you can build it up Yeah, the challenge there is going to be even if it is a high mobility unit like in a daughter in a daughter's army It's competing with harpies Um, which they have great they like i'm just saying they have great teleporting bodies now if they can Tell like re-teleport. That's what i'm saying. Yeah. Yeah, if they could re-teleport Imagine it was like a relatively cheap unit just on fours like the standard fours and fours Or as war cry warbands are but every round it can just like teleport itself around the board Sure. So it ends up functioning like uh, like a free caliber on yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly. Yep That could be like things like that can make that kind of stuff really interesting. So yeah, I would agree with that You know, just like the untamed beasts with their pregame move that that sort of stuff Uh, okay, cool. What else we got? Um, let me pull up the sheet Uh, speaking of orcs, we have blood bowl orcs that were revealed Yeah, I just wanted to shout these out because these were again amazing sculpts Like I don't play blood bowl or care about blood bowl nor will I ever care about blood bowl Um, but these those new orcs were fantastic. I don't know if you saw them tom, but they looked really wonderful Nope, um, that's fine. If there's anybody who likes sort of the more Uh, traditional green skin flavor Uh, the flavor sava Then, you know, you will be uh, you will be happy as a as a clam with this stuff So they look really good and you can easily use them as You know as stand-ins proxies, whatever you want to say for You know, like your art boys or anything like that They're clearly going to be in that size range and could be really cool things. So just just neat reveal I don't think they come out till the end of the year like december Um, but nonetheless, uh, very exciting like the sculpts were beautiful The most recent round of of of blood bowl Sculpts, uh, the empire ones. We didn't really talk about much before this, but uh, and these new work guys are Uh, really just fantastic and are showing what they can do when they when they apply their their current level of modeling skill To even sort of like old world-ish concepts. So uh, yeah, also a note, um Uh I mean people may not, uh Care about this, but the mortal realms like subscription thing is launching in australia No, that's neat Which is amazing. Like I don't know. I don't know of other people like I loved it so much That I had six issues of the first issue or second issue or the The 10 free chain rasps issue shipped to my house Um, and I'm super super sad that we can't get it Here in the u.s. Yeah, I mean you had you had somebody, you know actually send them over to you. Yes Yes, well, yeah, well, no, it was it was a company that was shipping, uh, across overseas. Oh, there you go Yeah, like I was I had reached out to a friend to see if you would ship me all of it But that was going to be too much So I didn't do that but I say that to say, uh, if you're in australia This is something to check out because the mortal realm it's like it's a super deal Like it was the equivalent of like five bucks for 10 chain raps Like a 45 dollar box from gw and it's the exact same sprue It's incredible if you've ever wanted to start a night hon army now is the time Yeah, and you live in australia and you have to live in australia not in the u.s. We're we're still missing out Uh, well, that's fine someday we can dream that someday we'll get Whatever version of that is over here. So there you go. Yeah Uh, all right, cool. I have one more news thing, but it's it's something that I wanted to talk about Uh, sure vince go ahead. So this is uh, this is in our notes in our show notes. I wrote a note on guild ball from vince Okay, so Take a sip here Okay So, um guild ball is done As you may or may not have seen Guild ball is not the type of thing we would normally ever cover and I never played this game nor had any interest in it whatsoever the figs were fine enough And what I found interesting about the death of guild ball It's actually nothing to do with with guild ball itself, but in the letter that they're Their person put out like the head of their company or whatever put out Yep And what was interesting about the letter that they put out for guild ball It was and I'll paraphrase this because I don't have it right in front of me But this is a pretty close paraphrasing It went something like this When we sought to make guild ball we wanted to make One of the most balanced games ever and we nailed it. It was super balanced a game where skill Defined whether you won or lost Okay, so like that's a very Very bold claim, but sure. Why not? Let's just say that's true And then they said unfortunately our game was so well balanced and so skill dependent that it ended up being the death of the game because effectively when when skill mat like their argument that was made in the paper and I don't I wanted to bring this up as a point of discussion because I found this fascinating This is from the the creators of the game. They're they're advancing this Hypothesis, yeah that they made the perfect game No, that they made the game too balanced and hence it failed because the argument was this It's in a perfectly balanced game skill matters completely And you don't have to let me guess I didn't read of it. You you don't have to buy new warbands So there's no made it made it to manage a chase so people only ever bought one or two and then never bought more Nope, that's a it's a good thought but no Quite the opposite actually or quite the opposite actually they do address that point, but I'll get to that in a second If you're a new person playing even a reasonably seasoned person in a game that's that is allegedly like that who wins Oh, oh the seasoned person every time every time every time Right You ever tom do you play chess at all? Uh, yeah, yeah, okay. How good are you at chess? I I I am competent. Okay. You ever play somebody good at chess? Yes. Do you ever beat that person?  Yep, and you like know some basic strats and you play somebody and I can I I can look like four steps ahead or something Like that but that's that's not sure and you play somebody who's good at chess I don't mean great. I don't mean like world master. I just mean like good at it I spent a considerable considerable amount of times. They've reached tier two Sure, right? Yeah, you don't beat that person anymore. They beat you 10 out of 10 games. Like it's not it's a non game right, right Yep And I was thinking about the argument that they were making and it's absolutely fascinating to me, right? Yeah Because now whether or not that argument is true is highly dubious by the way Okay Um, whether or not this is a hypothesis. They've made the perfect balance game Is is yes, it's highly dubious. Like if well more than that, I mean, maybe they did maybe they didn't but That creates a cycle where new players are Uh unable to pick up the game because they're tired of getting their their teeth kicked in every time. Sure. Okay Uh Then um I'm not sure if that's actually true in guild ball or not. I I don't know. I don't know the game. Okay. Sure I know that they also had other challenges Like they went almost a whole year with many of their their teams just being unavailable in their production being like way behind and like having just big Big production issues and there were there were other other elements of chaos that could be in the way so like I mean, I would say that's whenever I went to my store one of my local stores that that stocked it There was always an entire shelf And I'm sure people played it Yeah, I had no problem moving my guild ball when I sold it Of what I'd gotten a at adaptive gun. Sure but Yeah, I don't know I never saw anybody in the store playing it. Yeah, I don't again.  So I should I should you know, um Should you know state that way and again, I can't speak to the veracity of their claim nor do I care to Right. It doesn't doesn't matter Right, like That's not what's important to me. The specific of this situation isn't important to me Maybe that's what killed guild ball. Maybe it's not maybe guild ball was that balanced. Maybe it wasn't Maybe it was their production issues. Maybe it wasn't. I'm not sure that that is actually a knowable Set of facts, right? Sure. Yep um What was interesting to me was the argument being advanced there, which I think is something that's actually That actually has an element of veracity to it to it to me. Okay What this Which is that if a game becomes completely about skill And that skill is something with a relatively Shallow learning curve. Yeah, those two situations are combined. Yep. Okay Then it becomes very hard to get new people into your game Because the more experienced player Will beat the less experienced player You know 99 out of 100 times Right. Yep. And the only people who will who will go into your game are people who are sort of willing to put up with that That face kicking. Yep Uh now there are ways around it. I know I'm oversimplifying You could also have things like in a world you could say like, well, maybe that's what magic actually looks like But magic's sort of, uh, you know, which doesn't have that super shallow of a learning curve And by the way, I am using that correctly shallow means longer Okay, a steep learning curve is an easy thing to learn a shallow learning curve is a hard thing to learn It's the curve. Okay. I just want to because I don't want to be un-actually Um, I am using those terms correctly Uh A steep learning curve means that it's very hard to learn. No, it does not you're wrong It's the opposite. A steep learning curve means it's easy to learn. You can look it up People use this wrong all the time a steep learning curve means you learn fast. Think about what that means That's that's knowledge gained over time In colloquial usage a steep learning curve means the knowledge in question takes longer to learn A shallow learning curve means it is a nice quick process. This is google Uh, I understand Uh-huh Like the curve is wrong. This is something that like Curve out what you're saying the pop English language and usage Uh, this is uh, what's the meaning of steep learning curve? And it is in informal usage. So popular usage hence an incorrect usage. Yes, things can be popular and wrong Well, what we're talking about here. Okay. I just had to I'm actually I understand that like things to be popular and wrong Things that take a long time to learn. How about we just do that so we can move on to the point here Yeah, uh, what's interesting to me about it Is that there is an element of truth there like one of the strengths of aos is that sometimes Very new players can beat very experienced players because the game is uh The game is quite chaotic and random and dice do decide a lot of stuff Right. Yeah, and imbalance can favor Newer people. I mean, that's a fairly obvious statement, right? Yeah, when you don't have to rely completely on skill Uh, it's um It's it's it means that there is more chance for the newer person to get lucky Right So Uh, yeah, it's interesting stuff uh the Uh, so it's just something that I read that and I found it fascinating that the that the like makers of the game self diagnosed it Like that Right. That wasn't somebody for on the outside Saying yeah, right and yes, it makes me see that sit here than said be like Sure, right, but it was just an interesting topic of conversation because it did make me reflect on that the chaos of aos is a You know, it's both a uh It's a feature not a bug Right that they do probably want to always keep some amount of randomness and hence why I've always said aos should have this fat middle Of like 40 to 60 because overall that's more healthy for the game But it's an it's an angle on it. I had never thought about before At any rate and yes, oliver is mentioning in the chat What I was going to make reference to which is like one of the ways you can negate this in like a digital form Is things like, you know ladder matching systems and stuff like that, right? Where where people are sort of equal skill level can get matched But that's not something that just naturally organically occurs if you're at your local game store or or you know Whatever no the bros that are grinding out tournament lists are grinding out tournament lists, right so they're there You know Yep, yeah, it was just an interesting element that popped up in the news I thought was worthy of a little bit of discussion.  That's a shame Yep, so there you go Uh, all right, so Uh, cool. That's news. Let's do some pick of the week Tom, what do you got you have a thing?  He has he's done some Uh two in the last week or so and he has some more coming next week And I want to encourage you to check it out It's got him so excited. He's started or he's Refreshed his nergal army. Yes. So it hopefully he can get you excited for a similar project as well. So check it out Yes, so, um the, uh In fact, he's so excited about it. He's gonna come on the show next week and we're gonna talk nergal So there you go. Oh I beat him by a week There you go. All right, uh, so I would like to recommend my pick of the week That is to say is the most recent episode of uh trapped under plastic Uh scott and john or miniac and john nenas's Uh podcast It's sort of a twofer as well. I thought it was really interesting. They were talking about beginner Sort of painter mistakes, which I thought was cool. They covered a lot of stuff that I found To have a lot of truth to and I thought it was really interesting So if you're sort of an early hobbyist on your journey, I thought that was a really nice discussion they had about that And at the same time john the other half of my pick, uh John nenas ninjohn as his channel is known He put up his first painting video and of course he paints a space marine in his first video, but We won't hold that against him Because he was painting a bunch of he was talking about painting with true metals Which I love and he was painting using vallejo metal color, which is correct So uh big shout out to him for getting his first video up. I know he spent a lot of time on it Uh So I'll throw both of those links down below Uh, yeah All right, man. Let's talk about some hobby time You got you got stuff on your table behind you tom this week. You have actual models on the table behind you It's true Uh, I was just selling stuff I was gonna lie and be like look Nurgle And then no, I'm just selling stuff.  Yeah, that's all Yeah, yeah, I'm just starting through just moving some old product, you know Yep Getting the job done. Sure. Sure Uh, all right. Any any any inspiration to hobby yet time tom? Nope I'm gonna I'm gonna clear off some space. I mean in all honesty. I have a huge like I like Here's a true talk, you know some straight talk here. Uh, I've watched our four kids all day every day Um, and all the free time that uh, I've been doing I've I've been solicited to write a chapter in a book And I'm trying to get the and I have a deadline at the end of the month And so like all of my free time is spent doing research and writing when I'm basically not with my children Um, and so I just haven't had any hobby Yep That's that's fair.  Uh Uh There you go. Okay. Yep Uh, all right, so fair enough Uh, the uh, I I agree with uh, manzac you got to get some time tom I need at least an hour a week. You should be well, you're you're doing your eBay stuff So I'll give you minor credit for that cleaning out old stuff is important needs to be done But once that's done, you need at least an hour or two hours a week. You got to get paint on something tom The people are looking to you for hope. I know in these dark times and you're letting them down Uh, so I finished up this guy Uh, sig bald.  I've painted this guy many times, but I still love painting him He's just one of those figs. I like painting and uh, now I've got this guy on my desk And I've got him all primed up and ready to go. This is the big loon boss on cave squig super fun fig So I'm excited for this this guy quite good timing there Yeah, yeah indeed. Uh, it's not for me, but it's for somebody else and uh Yep, like I this guy is just such a cool figure Like this is really such a solid sculpt like as I was putting him together and stuff He's so smooth.  Like he has a loose Skin that's just really nice. A lot of the other Riders all have that. Yeah, they're grabbing that little loose Yeah, yeah Uh, I yes as two plus says Uh, I for one only sub to this channel for tom's painting tutorials and encouragement see tom.  I will encourage but unfortunately, um I I mean, I'm not painting tutorial Uh, so I'm gonna paint this goblin. I might paint another one of this goblin He's he's a candidate for a little uh For a little project that's something I might be working on here the end of next month But I figured I don't mind painting a really fun figure twice. This will be a good chance to learn him And then next time I'll you know, we'll we'll paint him more But I was just like blown away by this dude when I got him in my hand as to how good he was Um, so yeah, I hadn't really seen this guy up close before Nice. All right. So, uh, let's get to the the actual topic tonight. Who? Uh Tom let's talk about shooting Tom shootings back. Did you know that I I did know that in fact it's back It was gone. Yep. And now it's back First we should establish that it was gone I mean, yeah, it was it was like I think we can agree that for the majority of 2018 and into 2019 Sure. So who is the herald? What was the herald of the of the return of shooting? What do you feel? Yeah, sure. What actually was the tipping point? Yeah, right? Yep, I don't know if I can answer that. I think I know Okay, I'm interested to hear what you put what's your what's your argument? I'm ready I think that the tipping point was actually um the uh OCR Because of the catapult because we got our first like real We got our first play artillery. You like we got a taste of it. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Sure Yeah, I mean maybe we can we can talk about that and what we think has has Changed the meta because to change really the experience of the meta you have to have a you have to have a certain density of it Yeah, right. Yeah And I don't disagree with two plus either there where he said rerolling once jack was the herald Yeah, he's been on this train for a while But like other than what jack was doing with some occasional arguably probably questionable shoot cast Yeah, for the majority of a year to 15 18 months. Let's call it somewhere in that range melee armies dominated the scene because there wasn't enough shooting to stop them What was there was weak you looked at your top armies and the top armies were the ones that could run across table fastest Hit the hardest and take the punch back the the best, right? So this is hagnar doc This is slanesh. This is fec gristle gore This is uh You know who else in this time Things like that. Yes. So there's other examples there. Oh, and and of course like iron jaws and stuff who were always around that whole time as well yeah And I think that some of that was largely because those armies of course had a preponderance of like good Really good buffs, you know, I'm like melee synergies like the kumquat or the ghoul king on terror geist as he's formally called Uh, but we call him the kumquat the kumquat Can hit like outrageously hard, right? This is a model that can easily lay down like 40 50 damage on a unit in a turn. It's not a stretch easily. Yeah, right? A lot of that being mortal wounds. Yep. Okay Uh, that's not like an outside statistical probability for that to happen Yeah, uh, a giant unit of witches both hit super hard and made a ton of attacks It was also like remarkably consistent and remarkably durable Right right like it could because of it's like Uh, if it was in the range of the cauldron in melee, it would be like four up five up five up Yeah, which is just Ridonkulously difficult to to to pound through right? Yeah Um iron jaws were just super fast and and could fight sort of off turn and in weird ways Where the big whether whichever allegiance we're talking about, right? But they were generally scooting around the board and putting their whole army into somebody whenever they wanted right, uh, and Uh, so, you know these and slanesh cheated, right?  Yep, right So these were like undoubtedly good buffs because you might say okay Well, then if it's all about like synergied melee armies dominating in that time Why didn't corn rule? Well because corn honestly has like very it has bad synergy It has to work really hard for when comparing to these aforementioned Uh, to these aforementioned armies, right? Yep as we've talked about many times corn plays the opposite of how it should Corn should be like Corn should be like the everybody for themselves army almost no buffs almost no synergy Just run around and hit people in the face everybody should be punching way above their weight with as like independent operators Why does a corn hero inspire corn people? Why would they care? Why can't you do like run in charge? Everybody should be well, sure, but I mean like like some you It should just be like a raging horde of maniacs. Yeah Yes, and they should all be just like but you've got to keep them away from from iron jaws. Okay, so like we can talk We'll fix corn later Anyways Undoubtedly now if you look at some of the recent tournament results, Tom Have you been watching some of the recent turning results from around the world places that can have turnies or does it just make you sad? It just makes me sad Well Tom I have good news Okay, hit me KO or back baby. They're back. Yeah, I knew that. Yeah like Yes, I I am involved in the KO stuff enough that I know that it's it's it's a real thing Yeah, they've been showing up in the top three of most of these Tournaments be they one day or or there hadn't really been much in like a two day So it's a little bit limited right now, but they've been showing up a lot Um, sarah fawn are still showing up largely still on the back of like sallies and skinks Both of whom can put shots shots shots shots shots shots up in the air. Yes, they can Uh, and so what you see is that like these power projection armies are really um You know really ending up placing well right now And comparing favorably to the old melee synergy armies, right? They would rely on like here's two people buff that unit or something and go Right. Yeah. Yeah Um Oh, well somebody said eels won the event I go I went to nothing is surprising about that IDK is the is the forever army because they um Because they they always compare moderately favorably to every list Because eel spam is just like always moderately good. It's just it's just the right answer It's this weird So the eel spam is sort of this kind of weird meta list That can like shoot the angle on anything like it can tackle shooting lists. It can tackle Uh melee lists it can like castle lists no matter what they're aiming to do Eels are generally a pretty good match up against it. So IDK is fascinating not shooting but fascinating anyways Okay, so my argument is you look at these tournament lists shooting armies are definitely back. They're winning events. They're top three, right? And So who do we think is best positioned in this meta? To actually take advantage of this. What are the armies that we think are gonna do this and what are they doing it on the back of? Yes, I agree with will see real quick who said more teamwork for the blood god There's no eye and corn Uh a plus a plus. Yes, absolutely Teamwork does make corn's dreams work. Anyways, so tom, what are the armies we're talking about here? who are who are our folks that are are in the uh The shooting meta. Yeah, they're in the shooting meta and we're going to see showing up Uh in a couple people why? Yeah, okay. Um because teleporting flavors are still teleporting flavors. Um I mean, they're going to struggle to get all that into the battalion Like just because of the way the life is right now for zinch. Um, but they still have shooting. Um KO obviously, I think that KO are going to be the kings um of that new world Because almost their whole army can teleport every turn and lay down a decent amount of suppressive fire Yep, yeah, there's just yeah, like they can generally there are there are certainly exceptions But they can generally pick up land point click kill a unit they point at Yeah, yeah, and then yeah, that's a true statement Okay, uh, are we counting cities in this list because I would um Whether it be Tempest army and sort of their quality mix of Of shooting that you can put on the board because they can bring KO in Right, or if we're talking about something like maybe hallow heart, which you can rely on both shooting and Uh, you know magical Sort of power, right? Yeah, where they're just over there They're they're using like spells to supplement some amount of shooting and like units of hand a big unit of handgunners or or something like that Right. Yep. Yep. So I definitely think cities is in there I think seraphon is still in the discussion, right? Yep I think seraphon is in the discussion on the backs of salamanders who even at the more expensive 30 point increased 110 right, uh still pose a Very large threat do do just an outsized amount of damage And then can be backed up by croak in much the same way that the hallow heart list I just mentioned right is like some amount of range damage Combined with kind of magical superiority right, right um So, yeah, I think seraphon are in the conversation for sure Are we counting? luminous in the Uh, are we counting luminous in this based on the back of their archers? Or is that not it or are the archers not enough they are, you know mortal wound capable archers Right They are oh, yes, I didn't mention living city, which was I was remiss for not mentioning living city But yes living city can also be in that that city's chute list 100. Thank you all over at any rate. Um But that's you know, they've got archers and it is but is that enough Maybe backed up by some kind of magical play If teclis is in the list What's your what's your read on that right now? Are they Going to play in this space. Yes. Yes. Yes as they are right now. Absolutely. Yes. Okay What makes you confident that the archers will be enough because they are still fairly expensive Right and as we said in our luminous show, it's probably the kind of thing where you'd have what Maybe like at most 40 on the board Not that that's not a lot of shots that is when you can when you can genoff 40 I think 40 is a safe number. Yeah And I think that they're going to devastate Okay, are you saying teclis in that list or not or doesn't matter? Um Do do they need because they don't have a lot of other I don't think they necessarily projection. I don't think they necessarily need teclis. Okay Okay, like you can get there on sort of Cow cow mountains or or whatever mix in and like that's your melee frontage And you're just using the archers to like shoot down the key critical pieces like remove the the synergy heroes And then really people do the work Yeah, because because I mean the meat of the of the archers is having a block of 20 You'll be able to reroll all hits to roll into the mortals And which they can self cast right Um, and so they don't need teclis in the right In the right city or like in the right like Subfaction, let me say it that way. Yeah Um They I think they could they could achieve that and be sufficient. I think that teclis with 40 archers is really strong though So You just you end up not having a lot of bodies though like that's just the consequence Of course. Yeah. Yeah, you're gonna be very limited Um, all right, let's talk about who's I think that is that the list? Is there anybody else who's really authoritatively part of this list who's sort of their winning strat? is on the back of Shooting you understand what i'm saying there like not that i'm not saying like they don't have a shooting thing because like, you know arguably Boulderhead maw tribes has some shooting things in the army.  Is it reliable? No, but it like it works. It'll get five six seven mortals into them And right and that's that's doing the job Is there anybody else you think of that that needs to be in this list? We're not mentioning like I've got some near ones But i'm i'm interested like i have a low i have a tear with your near hit me with your near ones Okay, here's my tier two. You ready? Yeah We're like and that's why I said lumineath for me. I'm not sure they're actually part of tier one Sure. Sure. They might fall into this tier two where like shooting actually isn't the main strat They just tend to play in more of a mixed arms But many builds of the or or many builds of the army will have some shooting in it Okay And that can be used in a minor way to remove minor problems Like ko can remove major problems with their shooting, right? Like they line up against techless. That's a great day for them They're like, right? Well, this guy's dead Right Like i'm gonna shoot him.  You're cool. I'm shooting you right Yeah, absolutely. So, um Okay, here's my startup. Here's my sort of tier two, right? Yep. Okay Uh So number one scaven Okay Just because lightning cannons or do you think because of the uh, some of the other options? Yes, some of the other options Uh, lightning cannons, uh, but it should be noted that that we'll talk about the implications of this like Of the of the of the shooting meta because there are lots of implications and we'll get to that in a second And right it's knock on consequences are Warp lightning cannons are decent, but they need Uh, engineers to make them run at full efficiency. Yep.  Like anything looks at them sideways and they evaporate. Yep. Um Storm fiends are good, but like lack either the numbers or or Just what I want to say like density of firepower Right, um because of the sort of numbers restrictions like they're good. Don't be wrong I think shooting is part of almost any successful scaven army Right, but I think more than anything scaven played right now. It feels like a mixture of course Yes, it's mixed art. It's not true shooting. Right. They they can handle some stuff They can remove some minor problems, but in the end they still win through like a combination of like body Body blocking and swapping people and and you know magic and other things, right? Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that Okay, um, so that's sort of in my that's one of them in my in my tier two I think obr Slightly just tips into this tier two if they're if they're using catapults because I think catapults are that good Yeah, there you can just point in mass. Yeah, like that that many catapults in mass. I agree are are very solid Yeah, I mean you can just point You know if you got two catapults you can just start pointing at five wound heroes and go No, that's dead. That's dead. That's sure Right and like yeah, that's very realistically. What's about to happen? Right, I'm going to kill that and that and that and then at the end of the turn that will come true Yes Now again, but they can't win the game on that alone a couple catapults don't win the game because those things can get taken out quickly Can get removed from the ability to basically shoot at all right um And then the other one I would say is is the aforementioned like uh boulderhead mottripes who have a little bit of like Shooting ish effects. They're the weakest of this range But I mean there's a lot of armies that basically have nothing in the way of shooting just don't have any arranged Sort of power projection at all right, uh you know Like the iron jaws half of war clans the other half of ogres and don't talk to me about lead belchers or their cannons Those aren't real um I was excited to see doom try to run the the junk mob this last weekend, but sure You know, it's junk mob. It did okay, but it was like, you know, it was wasn't really there Uh, you look at somebody like knight haunt or fec or You know legions a lot of the demon armies Uh, you know the various chaos armies that I just say outside of zinch Right slanesh or or corn or slaves of darkness in general Nergal these are not armies that put Shooting on the board right like these are armies reliant on melee Yeah The only other one that like maybe maybe maybe could sneak their way into that tier two would be something like Sylvaneth if you consider curnoth good enough, and I'm not sure I do Sure So Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure So, uh, I think there's still a lot of like, uh I'm just reading people's responses to the scaven. Uh, I mean, you know look So one of the reasons I put scaven into your two with all their shooting Is because one of the consequences of ironically one of the consequences of a shooting heavy meta Is the first thing it limits is what shooting is good. Yep, okay Like Let's go back to scaven for a minute Okay, you need engineers to power your warp lightning cannon.  Yep. Okay Now if it's an arch warlock, sure it's tougher But you know generally that that suddenly becomes a bigger commitment of points and so on and so forth, right? Gisels have a bravery of basically negative 12 Uh, if you kill like any gisels they tend to run and you know, sure they've got a four up save against shooting Okay Like that's that's it Right and and that's and very few wounds like they punch way above their weight in the damage They put out versus the number of wounds they have right? Oh, we didn't mention shoot cast in the tier one list. Absolutely shoot cast her back Or did I mention him? I don't know but shoot cast are absolutely in that tier one list if I didn't mention him Shoot cast her back, baby. I apologize if I missed them So one of the first consequences of a shooting heavy meta And I think by the buy things like shoot cast that have big range KO that have big range like some of these things we mentioned Have big old range Right Yep, and it is very hard to hide from them. You are not going to be able to bunker heroes safely No, and and look out sir that neg one is not going to be enough to save them like they're just I mean just your all raw volume counts for something here Right, absolutely All these lists just kill five wound heroes and low wound units like gizales that put out shooting, right? Um, arguably one of the pressures on storm cast is that one of their big powerhouse units in their, uh You know in their like big hurricane crossbow guys are like low wound dudes who punch way above their weight as far as the output Right, right, and so they're like the gizales of storm cast and but they are much more brave kill one The other two don't just immediately scoot off the board. Just not the case for gizales newt all right so In my mind what one of the interesting that the immediate first consequence of the shooting meta is It is a hard counter to the types of armies. We saw for the last year and a half Because yes the synergistic I'm going to power up a block of 30 with my five my two supporting five wound heroes That's just dead Right because I'm just going to kill those two five wound heroes and now your block of 30 is just average at best Right. Yep, like that's the immediate You know, that's the immediate consequence right and The Does it always happen at the top of one? No No, absolutely not. Sometimes you have tricks to stay off board or To bunker or you have a lucky piece of terrain or something like that, right? We're not talking about a hundred zero matchups here, right tom What we're talking about is What is the modal outcome and the modal outcome is that like those support pieces are dead in turn two In in in like the six or seven out of ten games, right? Right What are other consequences there in your head about this? like as this shooting as shooting comes to be such a big part of Of the meta like what are the other things we would expect to see besides just the death of five wound heroes The double turn is going to become a lot more important. Okay. Why so walk people through that? because when you have a double turn with When you have a double turn with Words are hard With Like ko for example like it's going to be painful. Yeah It's going to be real painful when they double you And that's going to happen probably more than you, you know, you want to admit Like that's a very real possibility Um, and it's going to hurt a lot Because you're a lose like if a ko gets a double turn early on they may very well just win the game Sure, because they might just remove everything you have of sort of value Right things you're relying to actually put like gas in the engine of your army, right? Yep. Yeah Yeah, no, I agree with that on the flip side. I think I think you're I think that's half the story I think you're 100 right on the importance of the double turn. I think you're missing the other half of the story Okay, which is shooting armies who get double turned suffer a lot more than melee armies who get double turned Shooting armies to get double turned suffer more. Yeah, I would agree with that like that. That is a very real experience as well Yep Because you only shoot your turn melee armies fight in the enemy turn if they're engaged, right Right, so like yeah, it might not be the best case scenario if you get double turned But if you're in a bunch of melee and you get double turned your dudes are still going to fight Right and the fact that you have second pick Okay, you've still got second pick right um and the Whereas the shooting army there's going to sit there and stare at you Right now outside of a few shooting units that are like Way too melee aggressive for their for their for what they should be doing Looking at you salamanders.  I left a comment that I complained about croak too much So I won't mention that he's under-costed and should be adjusted this week And instead I'll mention that the salamanders are still under-costed and still too good The fact that they hit just as hard in melee as they do in shooting Right, that's a problem. It's true But anyways like outside of that a lot of shooting units are not much to speak of like Catch a catch some of the ko boats in melee and then double turn them. That's not a great day for the ko boats, right? They're very likely to be a scrap heat by the time that double turn is over if a significant melee unit got into them right Because they only get to re-roll their saves to burn their their gold to re-roll their saves once Right. Yep. No, it's true. It's true And like they can survive a beating but not that much Right, it depends on what gets into them and if generally something gets into them and punches them for two turns straight That's a bad day And it's in you know, the boats might get to the point where they're knocked below the ability to like To to leave to fly away or to even retreat, right, right Um at the same way like you get into flamers And start messing them up like they get peeled like great, right those things just evaporate They're they're a bunch of idiots on a five up save with two wounds each Yep, right So a lot of these shooting units are very very and we don't even need to talk about like uh some of the Skaven stuff or things like that. I mentioned like if those things get caught in melee Okay Those things are just dead, right like instantaneously those things are dead um Same most of the storm cast guys don't really want to be in melee, right? These the storm cast shooting people don't want to be trapped down in melee They want to be moving on they want to go ride the winds of theoretic or whatever they're doing, right? They want they want to be repositioning So I think the double turn becomes so important because if the if the person gets two shoot phases at you straight Where you don't get to react to reposition And they do like if the kale boats get to drop on you Shoot at their choice targets And then next turn pick up leave like drop wherever they want To shoot at their next set of choice targets That's going to be a rough day right so uh, yeah, I mean the uh The uh, I think that that's it becomes a swingier. Let me let me define it this way. Here's I think the summation statement The more shooting armies are in the meta The swingier the games become on the back of the double turn. How does that sound as a summary statement? Is that fair? Yeah, I think that's fair Yes um You know, there's also the fact that once the melee people get in there If they can double turn not only can they do damage, but they can start engaging all the units they want So that the shooting army is only shooting at the units that the melee army wants them to shoot at because they're now engaged right So there is sort of a there there is a natural balance to it But like a pendulum Is a very balanced thing That doesn't mean it doesn't swing really far on both sides Right, right. Yeah, it's true Uh, yes, and as coach pointed out. Yeah, it can be worse if they also shoot in the hero phase Yes, the shooty army will like some shooty armies also shoot in the hero phase in addition to their repositioning tricks, right? okay So, uh, here's some other here's it. Here's another implication That I was I was thinking of when it when it came to this, okay The more shooting That is present in the meta The more it increases the value Of just raw wounds Okay, okay Especially if those wounds are relatively durable to battle shock Okay, because what shooting wants to do like it's often very hard even for most these shooting armies We've talked about to just through their firepower like the way that they've balanced shooting in the game Is such that like a removing a five wound hero or a chaff unit or a 12 or 14 wound monster or hero thinks it in the back That's all doable Right, right. That's super doable But removing a even moderately defensive Big block of wounds Right, uh, a 10 pack of blight kings packing 41 wounds right or 60 grots right Uh, or or whatever like assuming that those grots are relatively resistant to battle shock for one reason or another Again the key is if the shooting army can hit you and actually cause battle shock Then they don't have to worry.  It becomes a really hard slog Right. So just masked wounds become Much more valuable. So this is where stuff like Uh, high wounds bone splitters. I think would have an increase in value Maybe running in big wall, right Yeah, uh High like maybe maybe It's a big maybe But maybe the right kinds of beasts of chaos list Okay, just because they can flood the board with wounds Mm-hmm And and just kind of block out the problem with boc is they are not very battle shock resistant That's the problem there Yeah, they are very susceptible to battle shock Okay Scaven certainly if you scaven lean the opposite direction and go board flood where you're putting down packs of 40 clan rats for Uh, for 200 points, right the shoot like shooting in the it's like shooting into the sea, right? And they're all just battle shock immune Right, right just all the time through like three different ways. They're all battle shock immune, right? Yeah, it's true. Uh Nurgle uh Nurgle because again Nurgle can put whether it's plague bearers who have built-in negatives to shooting And can now with their points drop put a lot of wounds on the board relatively cheap with a built-up penalty of shooting Or just blight kings who are one of the most outrageous like wounds to points ratios in the game Yeah, 21 wounds for 140 points, right? No, uh, so like anybody who can drop those kinds of heavy battle shock resistant wounds Right who can who can wound spam? Because it's not necessarily body spam like Nurgle doesn't necessarily have like a huge amount of bodies But they spam a huge amount of wounds Right, uh, chaos could be another one in this in this regard Uh, big giant packs of marauders. Yeah, right 120 marauders very easy to make them resistant to battle shock right and uh And those kinds of things that could also by the way lead into something like the spoilers Which has the whole pitch black rule right where they can where they can play on the site I don't know how valuable that's going to ignore the line of sight. I understand. Yep The elves for example are going to be like they're going to be like, haha the demon prince like I have darkness And they also like you don't care. Enjoy your darkness like yeah, exactly now. We all thank you. Yes um, what's interesting is like So I want to respond to something coach said coach said well, what about like the hagnar witch elf build? I think it's about the thing about the the units that I mentioned there Is that like all of those Especially you look at something like nurgle or scaven or you can have overlapping massive areas of battle shock community They don't have if built that way. They don't have little pieces that can be picked out to weaken them Right, right. Whereas with something like daughters The cauldron goes down the hags go down and witches are just witches and like witches without buffs aren't very good No, they're they're very very average Okay, they're Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, right Yep So I think that like When I and that's one of the reasons I wanted to talk about nurgle next week So we'll deep dive on on some of the things in nurgle next week because I think nurgle stock is rising But these things take time, right? Like right now shooting is going up There'll be natural responses to it and I think you'll see nurgle on the upswing on the other side of this That's my it's a slow shift Right Yeah, like that's not something that moves quickly Yep, yep, yep uh Any other any other sort of knock on things Uh, that like that you can think up to this. There's there's another subject I want to get to after this but any like tactical Elements that you can think of what about its interaction with objective play because you don't want to move as much So the first thing I would say is this um, like if you're playing shooting you need to always add their range Plus their movement That's like a really big deal and a lot of people don't do that naturally like yes the um What's his name? The ko shooters have 24 inch range the engine engine masters Uh, they also happen to are the engine rigors. They also happen to have a 12 inch move Sure, sure, sure.  Yeah, like um, that's uh, that's a big gap um, and so what I would say is like make sure you're adding those things up because it matters uh, yeah, I agree and And Some of these units can move real far. I mean, this was the classic conundrum with skyfires, right? This was what made skyfire so dangerous. Not only did they have like a really decent shooting range, right? Right, but they also had like a supreme mobility mobility, right? They just moved so far Right, right. By the way, I still think skyfires are overcosted. I actually think skyfires should come back down 10 20 points Yeah, here are there. Yeah, I don't I don't disagree with that at all. Yeah um So And that's I'm not generally one for points decreases, but I think that that's that's actually one that should happen Because there's just there needs to be more viable ways to play that zinch army uh I would agree with that the I wonder if like What are the big losers? Okay, okay Uh, who are the armies that are coming out here as like the losers in this matchup? Okay, because are we getting to parody? Here's the question tom Is the is this evolution of the shooting meta where shooting is a real thing? Does it bring us to actually a balanced parody? where some of these aren't where like Those kinds of melee armies now have pressure put on them. They can't just go five and no is easy And there's a lot of balance and it becomes match up and skill dependent, right? Has that what's happened? Because that's possible, right? That could be one of the interpretations Or has the pendulum simply swung You understand what what i'm asking Okay, I would say that the pendulum has swung Simply because when you look across the top tier armies All of them have shooting Okay Like so when I think about all of the things that are sitting at the top of the pile right now, sure KO Seraphon Seraphon Zeig Lumina or realm lords Like the comp like the thing that all of them have is really strong shooting Okay, um, and so like how you respond to strong or like strong shooting is with your own strong shooting um and so I Uh, I would tend to think that we've swung Okay, okay Like I think about like I think about obr. For example All right. I don't think about we are Like they have some strong is shooting But they don't have enough bodies to actually make the difference and their hard bodies are no longer hard because of the nerve And so they don't have enough bodies and they're just going to get cleared by the enemy shooting before they're Before their own shooting which has minimum range requirements can actually do the work they need to do Um, and so like that immediately kicks obr down Um, and their main tool to stop, you know, their hordes from getting removed like their mass bodies are their big Like their crawlers And they're going to get picked up by shooting Okay And so I don't know Of any real hard counters in the meta to shoot Like your best bet would be slaves to darkness Across the army, you have overall like either bodies or hard armor And the option for a line of sight cutting you can go nervel and go penalties to head.  Yes. Our otters great. Guess what? There are other things in the army that actually do a lot of work totally agree I'm just going around to the ease the slam dunk But you're absolutely right knights with their point drops are suddenly like very much in the mix conversation And Also if you're shoving them into shooters also not gonna be a problem um I'm like I'm Yeah, it's fine. No, like I want to make I I'll just say what I wanted to say was yes It's a big mac truck in a tiny garage. So I agree at any rate Uh It most certainly is so yeah, but I think there are still losers Yeah, you're saying the pendulum swung kind of way over That like right now your counter meta would be an anti shooting meta Um, and so like I think that slaves the darkness to me would be a hot pick Um, but I think there are just simply losers here Um, I don't think that iron jaws can get enough to get across the table fast Okay, I because it's a combination of the iron jaws The with the fact that like they can't take magic because in this meta they're magic I mean, obviously their magic is is dead. I might as well not But like hand of gork is a great like mobility tool that's just not available to him because of of of the teleport You're paying 120 points to maybe teleport ones. Maybe right right. Uh, I think that like glooms fight glooms fight is still losing Okay, like they even have some neg to hit like tools against shooting in their army and I think they're still losing Yeah, I'm not sure about them. I don't know what to think about glooms fight. That's my honest answer I mean, they've always been in a rough place. I don't know if their stock actually changes much or if they're just kind of in the same position Right. Um, I think that night haunt Are gonna be a really interesting Like middle place. I think that in general night haunt even though like they're They're they're armor save buffing Um, are there are like they're renegading. Let me say it that way. They're renegading Uh Would normally be a boon in the type against the types of shooting that we're seeing which is like ko shooting and salamander shooting Um, the reality is is that all of their heroes are like four and five wound Um, that's it like their best heroes are their like named heroes at like seven wounds Um night haunt are just gonna get picked up Like you're gonna the key is you're gonna lose all your heroes Which loses all it loses all your buffs all those 12 inch bubble buffs and you're gonna lose your ward sake Yeah, that one. I agree with I don't know if I agree with the iron jaws because they are so Stupidly fast Like it is not unreasonable for the entire iron jaws army to move across the table Sure, but like any time they want to reset up somewhere else on the board Yeah, that's fine. I mean the like the guy who can knock an iron clad to bits in one round Can move 36 inches like, you know, yes, it's possible you can go get out of this range, but it ain't easy, right? Sure, I understand that I do I do Um, all right. I here's here's my losers. You ready? Here's my big losers. Yep. Yep. Yeah one slinnish dead in the water Like between being like just nerfed into the ground through all the various nerfs And then being very weak to shooting already like way way back years ago when I was still defending slinnish, right? Right I was saying they're very weak to shooting and and they are They're their depravity won't save them. So there you go.  That's just a permanent neg two to hit And then the lantern that anybody within 12 inches of the bear re-rolls all sixes to hit against shooting Um, those two items alone will turn Like turn off army shooting Yeah, like it. No, it's it's a reasonable question. I've like part of what keeps It's interesting because I think Something like the star drake was just primed to dominate if you still had access to like ignax scales Uh, sure sure and I don't know if the shaman neg one, you know reducer Okay, like that magic item If if that's going to be worth it or like I don't know what fills that slot No, I mean, I think mirror shield does like for me the low hanging fruit is still mirror shield Sure, fair enough because he's a on a one up save and neg two to be shot. Sure Like yes, he can be burned down with mortals But if you get him in melee like if you get your castle in the room, which is not going to be hard you know dirt like just auto run him next to him um and Keep him within the bubble of the castle and he's going to be like all of his saves He's going to be like he'll trigger mortal or he'll trigger healing Um, and so if he gets into to combat, he's going to heal more than he takes damage. Yeah, sure Obviously, yeah, I think the question is just how much mortals are around Yeah, like can you burn him down in a round of mortals? Yes or no Yeah, and and and how much of that is present. I'm not sure a fair amount is still the answer You mentioned a lot of those things being backed up, right? Yep But the question is do some of those things get forced out by the shooting Like does no one take techless because techless isn't dead man walking if there's a lot of shooting around Yes, he is right. How does that actually end up balancing out? um A lot of people are stepping up to defend iron jaws and I find myself agreeing with these people I know you've hit a nerve tom clearly michael. We're gonna have to roll some dice He's he's already challenged me on uh On on getting this iron jaws out against me. There you go. Sounds like you've got a game on your hands And I'm I not for nothing tom, but I'm pulling for the iron jaws. I know y'all Between the iron suns. I agree with him between the iron suns and the speed of the iron jaws I think they can they can weather the storm. I've always backed jaws I've played against shooting armies before and and won out plenty of times Yeah, I mean that I mean my challenge there would be the fact that like you have rerollable saves On the ko when you need it Okay To rend I'm willing to let you reroll five ups Well, that's fine.  Sure I agree with you on knight haunt by the way as a loser I'd also agree with you or I'd also add in legions of negash themselves. Yeah, which I don't like the losing end for a long time Yes, they're like they don't they don't have enough tools to actually make the army work right now No, they're their downward slide continues in this matter. Yeah. No, I would agree with that. Um Somewhere somewhere Brendan is like heard heard a voice crying out and he felt a disturbance to the force and he doesn't know why Yeah, I think that uh when I think through the other armies, uh Uh, I think ogres will probably do pretty well There are I I don't know what to make of ogres in this The reason why I'm yet Yeah, like I think that like actually like multi wound bodies is a perk in this world. Sure I um, the question is how many people are actually running that and not just boulder head, which is like Five or six monsters. Sure. Sure. Um I mean those monsters can move Those monsters can move. They're very fast and like the stone horns are tough Yep, yep, but I think that like ogres with high wounds Just have that that raw meat like shooting really struggles with that And you combine that with the fact that like shooting off Like you're not going to be able to often shoot off enough models to actually make a difference Right, right, right Like does the 12 pack of gluttons come back as an actual interesting choice in this kind of meta where you're putting down You know 48 wounds. Yes, they don't have much of a save, but it's just like It's just raw wounds and it's meat that's double counting for objectives too. Right, right, right Yeah, you know, you get if you get a half of those into that archer unit Yeah, sure. Absolutely.  Those guys are dead The luminous just are there there those ogres are going to peel that that archer unit like like little sad grapes Yeah, and that's why I say I don't think the pendulum has swung quite as far as you're implying My honest answer is I'll be really interested to see how this plays out over the next like Whatever it is six months whatever whatever that actually means in this modern world where time is a flat circle again, I say that Like I make the claim that I've made Yeah, yeah simply on the basis that um That all the top armies seem to have shooting And I think that will that will naturally skew the meta sure Uh, if if half of the top armies Were shooting and half were melee then suddenly you have a really like mixed meta Which could be what it evolves into Right like in general in a meta when you get like an influx of a new strat That's a hard counter to the existing strat It tends to win out until the people who are running those other armies that are still perfectly viable Yeah, because some of those ones that were there before are still going to be perfectly viable. Sure, right? Sure.  I'm not sure that they Aren't pretty resistant to all this nonsense. Uh, I don't know like I thought so as well, but they're they're going to be so Uh reliant on their firewall To shut down shooting against their like key heroes. I like I think it's going to be a real issue Maybe I mean they have the little um The wound share. Yeah, they have the wound share. I just don't know that that's going to do enough work Might might not I couldn't tell you but I'm saying I don't know that they're dead in the water They seem like there's lists that are still competitive. How about that? Sure. No, I accept that. Okay. Um, you know, you look at again You mentioned obr. I think obr can absolutely reconstitute and still having competitive lists Will their percentage go to like maybe they end up at around 50? Yeah, probably but that actually is I think what that's what we want, right? That wouldn't be bad. That would be yeah I mean, it would probably be a heavy catapult. This is what I would imagine Sure, or you look at like again scaven Maybe the list changes some and they go to like a really hardcore mixed arms where they're swamping bodies Maybe we see the return of like more people have gone to a lot of like min size clan rat units You know, I see a lot of 320s. Maybe we start seeing 240s in a 20 or something like that, right? So so some of these armies have ways they can reconstitute themselves To suddenly come back in and once those changes are made then you end up in a balanced meta Yeah, somebody somebody mentioned the idea of like the palisade value Yeah At the end of the day like in the heavy magic meta most of these armies that are shooting armies are also magic armies Yeah, a lot of them have a high magic component Which means that if you're not one of those your chance of getting a palisade off and having it stick is like non-existent Well, it doesn't like it doesn't matter if you get it off. They just remove it, right?  Yeah, sure. Um Uh Yeah Yeah, yep So to me it's it actually like What I'll say is I do think the pendulum is swamp But my honest feeling is it when we look in like you think we'll be in the middle No, I don't think we're perfectly in the middle based on what's out there right now Because like I said, there are losers probably too many Right, like in the things we mentioned like l o n night hawn corn slanesh Right, those guys are all by losers silvaneth Which is so ironic given that they literally create a terrain feature that blocks shooting And yet no one cares because everybody who's shooting is also flying like so many of these people also have the ability to fly Like flamers fly and ko flies and everyone flies and just shoots in the woods anyways, right? Yep um so uh, you know There are Losers out there Sure, probably too many of them. I think arguably beasts ends up probably coming down in the l category slightly here Just because they do rely on a lot of squishy squishy heroes and they do have challenges with battle shock so like Uh, it just becomes real. Yes, they can swamp bodies But it's hard to swamp bodies and make all of them battle shock immune And if the shooting army can just go All right, I'll put four or five wounds down that unit four or five wounds on that unit four or five wounds on that unit And trigger like mass casualties through battle shock with a bunch of like bravery four and five dudes Yeah That's not really great, right if they're taking your your units down to to non-efficacy With one minor round of shooting, right? Yep um So I think that like my argument is if this is the spectrum, right and the pendulum was way over here on the melee side You know, we want it to be like here in the middle swinging back Right. I think it might have swung just slightly past that Okay, uh, let me bring up another picture here I just want to remind everybody here was our poll from from last week in our in our balance show I feel there is the correct amount of shooting in the game right now 30 let's call it 33 of the people agreed And 40 of the people were neutral neutral, right? And I'll be interested to see like I would love to run that question again in six months and see how people feel because I don't know a question. Yeah, like where we'll be at that time already. We're hovering around neutrality Which what you would want is these two bars to be flipped in some way, right? You'd want it leaning more this direction Right, you probably want this one about halved. This one about halved and this one and this one chewing up most of the difference So, uh, it's going to be interesting to watch how that evolves Yeah Right No, we mentioned so Tyler said temposcience each shooting should not be overlooked We actually didn't we mentioned them right at the top as being in like the tier one shooting We haven't mentioned them in our in as in using our examples much, but no, I mean I'm running a temposcience. I know what you can do like dwarf Like dwarf shooting is still hot hot hot. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. The fact that you've got hot dwarven shooting hot dwarven shooting dial now, uh, but also the fact that you've got, uh, You know plenty of other real potent options in there like not for nothing But a hurricane it actually does quite a lot of damage at a significant range when it starts dropping the storm of shunt tech I just you know, we talked about like the ability to gen out mortal wounds and the ability to just be like Uh, I rolled three dice. Yes. They're all twos 3d3 mortal wounds per zap Is like, you know, that's a significant amount of damage Um, or the laser beam out of the lumen arc or whatever, right? Yeah, yeah, and that's that's all shooting or to bring in ko gunships Right to just like gun horrors a gogo Showing up in your in your tempos stylist like there's a lot of you're just gonna do like a An iron cloud and 20 buggers. Sure. Also a good option. Yes or or uh, a gun hauler and Six rigors endring rigors. Yeah, that'll also be a good one So there's there's a lot there's options. There's options. That's what we're saying here Yeah, and I mean like the um Um To me, I think the pendulum in my mind is off center, but not as much I think what you'll have to see Is a lot of these lists evolve. Some of them just can't I'll also be interested to see what the giants add to this meta because they're clearly going to be like a melee focused army Yeah, like I I really hope they're like immune to shooting Sure, sure How many on all the art like literally in the Old kid of the giant you get a bunch of arrows That's what I was imagining. Yeah, but you can just glue onto them. I wish it said something like, um You know They'd never write an ability like this, but I wish the the um The giants had an ability like thick hide um reduce all Shooting damage by one minimum zero. Yeah, sure. I was I was actually gonna sure it's so fun.  Sure My argument was going to be uh Was going to be something like the render rule Which is uh Any attack with a missile weapon that deals one damage reduce any the damage of any successful missile weapon attack Uh of one one one damage just goes here. Yeah, originally I think it's gotta be big enough to punch through Originally, I was going to go. Yes One damage attacks and then I went nah, let's do all range attacks just reduce all by one Yeah, my argument was going to be like all one damage attacks are just zero, right? That's where I effectively that's where I started that's where I started sure and I was like no, that's not good enough Like I I want him to really just be monsters Yeah, because you shoot a cannon at a giant sure you can deal some damage to him But you shoot about like you shoot some arrows at that giant. He doesn't care. What's what are you doing? Get that out of here get that weak sauce out of here now whether they'll do that or not Who knows it'd be sweet though. It would be a great, uh It would be a great thing if we saw that Yeah, it would be just because it's thematically in line with the kit, right?  I mean the old giant kit comes with like 12 or 18 You know half arrows to glue. I know they can clearly get shot a lot and not be bothered by it I would love that but I mean, I don't know they'll do it But I mean it like and that would immediately That would immediately Shake up the meta sure it'd be a good counter Right, because all the one damage shooting is just nothing like it takes two damage shooting to actually damage them Right. Yeah, you got to have something big enough powerful enough to punch through Which sure they're like the ko gunships can still get in there But a lot of the ko weapons. Oh, I mean like most the ko weapons would do nothing against that army There's a good number of two damage weapons like the all the carbines on the iron clad I mean on the iron clad the main guns on all the ships Like they're gonna do effectively like one and a half damage after all their shooting is done and saves our old Sure, I'm taking my weaker version of the rule where like two damage shooting is still to will still do two damage Yeah, yeah, right Ah, nah Fair enough give them that man with that shake up the meta Yeah, no, I mean like it they should have something like that to be honest because I agree with you it would put a lot of like Pressure on the shooting armies But that's I like that's why I like my version of the rule because sure would things still like gizales work Yes, gizales would still do damage to them and be scary and gizales are obviously the weaker Entry right now in the shooting meta, right? Um, so that's why I think something like that could be Like they just ignore one damage thing Of you know, they ignore damage one shooting could be an interesting way to go because it doesn't make it so Shooting dies Right, but it makes it so a very like a certain type of mass shooting gets kicked out Right. Yeah, if you if we went with the reduce everything by one, I think that's still be okay It would put a lot more pressure on Yeah, right Because then you've got like You know even things like flamers and like obviously this the the Or or uh, or sallies still having their damage Reduced when they're not Doing mortals, right, but like those giants are just and as well they should be by the way Those giants would just wade through like packs of skinks just taking zero damage Right, uh So, um Yeah, yeah, I don't know. That's that's my it's my general Uh, my general thought Uh, is there anything else we missed on shooting? I think there's one more I want to close out on one topic, but is there anything else like I have one more thing to close out on before we We end this I'm just doing a brief flip down of the books. Yeah, sure Uh idk Still gonna be a good option.  Yes.  You can do just like a bunch of small packs Um, there's been a lot of talk of that in the various chats and like man msu eels against shooting the right answer Because every time somebody shoots like you can only dump all of the unit shots into a unit of three Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I just want to answer a comment here real quick. Oliver was saying we're dreaming about the giant rules I mean, yeah, obviously we're being hopeful, but hey, you never know sometimes things are fun And uh, he said give them one drop and a lot of movement um unless There are battalions In the book that didn't go into the general's handbook We know they cannot be one drop because there were zero battalions For that army in the general's handbook. So But that could be Because maybe they hadn't finalized the battalions when the ghp went to print and the battalions will only be in the main book Or maybe there's no battalions or or there's just no battalions in which case No, they can never be one drop like the minimum they could be as like Uh Four drop. Yeah four drop. I think would be the the minimum unless they lean into like the lore like the fairy tale lore Like they come in the night and they're always one drop No matter what this army counts as one drop. Yes, right and but and but it's always deployed after um The enemy enemy drops, you know or some weird like Yes, it's always one drop but it always deploys after the enemy army fully deploys and they get you know, They get choice or it could be something really weird Like what i'm saying is is don't negate the reality of weird design space Yeah, sure They're gonna have to play in a weird design space for this book because if they just literally make it what it is on The tin like if these this isn't the giant show but just to just to close this out real quick like If these giants are just if the mega gargants Are just like 18 wound four up save guys Who hit pretty hard or 30 wound? Sure, i'm like i'm taking them as per that would that would be outside the box though tom What? Yeah, sure 120 wounds per army. You can get four of them. I understand that I'm saying it would be outside. Yes, because it would be outside the box because they don't build monsters like that Like and please don't at me with the freaking thunder lizard guy. Okay, like or the dragon corn dragon Like I understand that the big giant Forge world seraphon You know thunder lizard has 35 or 37 wounds Right, but like other than that weird monster with its outrageous number of wounds Like what they've shown is that monsters big monsters end up at like 16 18 or 20 wounds Right. I mean, that's the that's what they print Right, sure now If that's what the army ends up as like traditional traditional i'm making finger air quotes monster builds Then yeah, man, this army's dead in the water Right because three guys Three 18 wound heroes. I don't care how hard they hit Right, right moving at like 10 or 12 or 14 inch movement. They're dead They're dead.  Yeah, absolutely. And you like you look at knights and knights had just like layers and layers of defenses and Things they could take to buff And again the ability to just like leave combat and just like overwhelming ranged firepower Right where they could and I'll clearly that's not what the giants will have But my point is like, you know, one of the benefits of knights is obviously that you just had like an incredible firing platform To just like level people at range um, anyway So, uh, neither here nor there here's what I want to end on real quick tom. Let's let's close out this conversation like this. Okay Yep Does shooting still have a higher npe even if it is balanced Let's imagine that the pendulum did swing back to completely neutral. Let's say that like after giants Right and sort of the way the meta shakes out After we get the rest of lumineff and giants is that when you look at the top Lists whatever that heck that means. I'm not saying there's not losers There's always going to be losers sadly, but they can you know get new books or whatever Is that what we see is that like the meta ends up pretty much in the middle Right, like we see Meaning we see like good number of melee armies. We see a good number of ranged armies We see idk still because they are the forever army that can never be bad right Even if that's true Do people still complain more? Because of the natural npe Of shooting Yes Yeah, I tend to agree I tend to agree these people are going to be like I didn't get to play with my toys It's I know it's a problem for me like I feel it. I've managed to tip down on it My first experience of warhammer was you shooting off my dragon Is that really the first game we ever played What I shoot off your dragon with I don't know something something that's interesting like a casket or something I don't know.  Yeah, sure. That's fair Yeah, I'm so all excited to play my new models that I just bought First game of warhammer. Thanks Vince. Yeah, well you stuck with it. I'm happy for it Uh Yeah, like I I do agree with you. I think this is the risk Right. Um, I want to do a whole show on npe at some week in the future So we're going to do like an npe focused show I'm but I think I want to do another survey before we do it Sure Because this is one of those things that like I have a list Of things I consider npe But I want to know but I also know that I'm very like timmy Right. Yep. Yep, and I have a certain psychographic profile And your sensibilities are shaped by timmy your timminess. It is it is and I'm I am honest enough I hope with myself to recognize that I have biases, right? Yep, and so, um I I want to double check right my biases with the With data with data. Yes. So probably at some point in the next couple months We'll do a survey and then it will do a show about npe and it'll be interesting to see how the med is evolved by then Yeah, are people just straight sick of this? right um Or do we continue to have people not care because people aren't getting in barely any games In most of the world I think that that's probably the truth We'll see who knows what the months will bring We'll see Uh, but at any rate, uh, yeah, I think that's everything I wanted to say by shooting tom anything else you got on your head No, sounds like, uh Shootings back folks shootings back. It's back baby. He's back.   It'll be a rematch for you. You've played that game I have played that game many many times Oh, somebody said wait. What's timmy mean? Uh, it's a psychographic profile Uh, if you look on the channel, uh Uh, uh at if you just do a search on my channel for psychographic profiles psychographic It'll explain timmy johnny and spike. It's the reasons why people play This game or other similar games originally coined by mark rosewater for magic it is, um But it's a very useful tool in understanding what motivates you in the experiences you want to have when you play a game Anyways, yeah cool. Okay Uh, so with that, I think we're good. That brings us to the end. All right, folks Well, thank you very much for uh for watching appreciate it We want your opinions is shooting an npe for you Like is that a negative play experience? Do you hate shooting drop that down in the comments? You know give give us your thoughts on this I'm very interested to see what people think how they think the med is going to evolve the winners and losers of this this thing And uh, as always give it a like just slide that mouse over click that like button hit like We appreciate it helps other people find the show increases engagement and that's really important right now Uh, so thank you very much everybody. Certainly appreciate you watching and as always