What is neurohacking? What is no tropics? You've probably heard this thrown about over the past few years when people are talking about I take no tropics and my brain is Working on another level. I'm taking these smart drugs called no tropics.  We're gonna find out today We're gonna talk to the co-founder of neuro hacker collective who takes a Complex system approach to medicine and well-being science We're gonna be talking about all the toxins that are in your living room and in your kitchen and in your life How spending so much time indoors is affecting your life and what we can do about it So we're gonna get geeky. We're gonna be talking brain health no tropics smart drugs Mr. Daniel Schmuckdenberger great to have you here on the show sir Thanks for having me fun to be here So let's let's dumb this down to the very simple. What is neurohacking? Neurohacking is a general term for any kind of applied neuroscience applied neuro technology for Optimizing the nervous system optimizing the mind-brain interface for various cognitive goals or psychomotional goals primarily We could also be talking about neurohacking for kind of sensory motor Neuro purposes or anything that has top-down neurologic control whether that's you know aspects of health and regulation immune system longevity But when we talk about neurohacking in kind of contra distinction to the whole field of biohacking, we're generally talking about Cognitive and psycho-emotional tuning and up regulation Okay, so to the uninitiated. What did you just say? Because it sounded very interesting it sounded it sounded very complex. What does it mean in a nutshell? tools for increasing Cognitive capability intelligence focus memory Etc. And for increasing psychological well-being awesome. Okay What is preventing us from just being naturally gifted in our intelligence and and having an optimized nervous system? Like what's going on today in 2017 as we're recording this that's preventing us from From you know having that kind of optimum capability Mm-hmm a tremendous amount actually so We if you look at our interface with the modern technological built world and you look at what Our evolutionary biological history is and you look at the places where there's suboptimal interface between those it's in almost every area so whether it's Eating food that came from topsoil where the agricultural method had a deficient in Micronutrients trace minerals know where even if you're eating the healthiest food that you can get access to you have fundamental nutrient deficiency And those are the nutrients that make not only all aspects of physiology function, but brain specifically Or whether we're looking at ubiquitous toxicity like the volatile organic compounds that are in paint and flooring and so much You know carpet so much interior toxicity or external environmental toxicity organophosphates DPEs phthalates You know most of the organic most of the toxins that we are exposed to and we see study after study of breast milk in Mothers in the United States having 200 plus petrochemicals Those are those petrochemicals are either endocrine disruptors or carcinogens or neurotoxins. They have a real effect And then we also have pathogens we never had before because of antibiotic resistance because of the amount of global travel because of pesticide resistance so As you share the effects of artificial lighting the effect of the amount of time people spend in Fixed postural positions with a fixed eye focal length to a screen so many of these things are things that we can work with But are suboptimal to the human condition. That's just on the physiology side on the psychology side most people don't have the connection to tribe that would have been part of the an evolutionary biology of humans feeling meaningfully Connected to other humans don't have a sense of connection to meaning and purpose have in a level of stress from the worldview that they have come Into and from the macroeconomic system and maybe from other macro global issues. So all of these are Stresses on our physiology our psychology our nervous system that are going to have a suboptimal quality of life and performance if we don't work with them It's fascinating. You're talking about You know the food we eat probably the cleaning products we use in our kitchen or bathroom Staring at a screen obviously I talk a lot about the dangers of looking at too much Electronic light sitting down as well. There's a great book called get up by James Levine, which talks about the problems of Humans sitting down so much and how that's affecting us and then I assume what you were talking about when you were talking about emotional capability was Of course Dunbar's number of people. I think was about 150 or 160 People when we used to be in tribes that was the number But now it seems like even if we're can if we're connected to more than that Which would make you feel like you were popular because you connected 250 people. It seems to suggest that actually You Become less happy the more people that you know or the more people that you're connected to or the more people that you Have to keep up with so can we just break down each one each one of these things? Let's just look at the food we eat for the time being like If I go to Whole Foods down on Fairfax and Santa Monica Boulevard in West Hollywood here Can I be sure that the foods I'm eating from the salad bar at Whole Foods or the kale or spinach? I'm buying from the in the plastic bags are going to be okay for me Or is what you're arguing saying, you know what chances are it's still gonna be pretty bad for you I don't want people to feel Hopeless or I mean is buying food that is from a Farmers market or someplace that is local fresh are gonna be a lot better than other sources Yes, very likely is buying food that is organic likely to have less Pesticide residue and maybe more trace mineral. Yes, those were worth doing now even in Even in organic crops will we still find glyphosate and other organophosphate residue just because it's being sprayed nearby Yeah, we find that and is the top soil gonna have the microbiota and trace mineral density of What you know an indigenous and primitive environment would have no so it's better it is still not ideal and People aren't aren't gonna be eating the variety of foods they would in a natural environment that are seasonal and that are you know each pulling different minerals out of the soil and air and They are gonna have an increased need for certain nutrients because of toxins and stresses that they're processing So what we're arguing is basically we we don't have an evolved process for dealing with organophosphates our glutathione pathway or cytochrome p450 pathway none of those pathways were Evolved for dealing with petrochemicals because they weren't part of our evolutionary environment And so given that we have the exposure to those things. It's actually important and beneficial to support our System to deal with the world it happens to be in so how do we ensure that we're eating the best quality foods in? What's a practical way that we can do that? Outside of someone foraging or having a garden where they can really ensure that themselves I Would say Farmer's markets are great because it's someone else having a garden where you can learn about the farmer learn about their methods find one like well likely you can get something there that is you know less hours since it was harvested than at a grocery store and Outside of where that's viable then going to Local co-ops and local health food stores is going to be probably the best Usually viable option and then of course understanding the different things that are in there Which is that not everything in a health food store is actually healthy and not everything That's healthy for one person is for someone else and is there one question that we should ask our Farmer at the farmers market when we're about to buy the kale or the spinach or the strawberries or the bananas or the fruit or Whatever we're about to buy is there one question. We should be asking and one answer We should be looking for to ensure that we're giving ourselves the best opportunity to get the healthiest food we possibly can Well, you might have one question being that you framed it that way, which I'd love to hear I I would generally ask what what are they're growing? Processes and practice so I'd want to get into how they enrich the soil. What kind of you know, do they use rock flowers? Do they use different kinds of? Microrrhizia and you know soil and enrichments Pesticides proximity to other pesticides how long from when they're harvested so they'll get in Obviously the more one knows about anything the better they can do to navigate that space. Okay We're talking to Daniel Schmucktenberger who's the co-founder of neuro hacker collective We're gonna talk to him a little bit about a product that he has as well.  She She you know came and was reliant on me and she asked me for next time that she came to buy a product The name of which escapes me. I think it was Clorex or something like that and it was clearly like a bad chemical What products Should I be buying to clean my home or to make available like what what kind of natural products because it seems like everyone's like Oh, yeah, I get this and it's like these vicious chemicals which are doing this It seems like permanent damage to our brains Just for a little bit of context Ammonia is an amazing beautiful chemical, right chlorine. It's a beautiful Molecule all of the chemicals that we have developed. I mean DDT is a fascinating chemical, right? And and so the better living through chemistry the problem was that We didn't understand complex systems. We didn't understand whole systems And so we understood one very narrow part of a system We developed something that would be good for that part of a system, but it had other effects those other effects were called externalities We started to understand those externalities and realize the problem of the externalities on both the environment and our physiology So, you know, most of the pharma meds are actually really fascinating chemicals for the one pathway. They're affecting It's just that they affect other stuff, which isn't very problematic. So it's not that it's not that bleach or ammonia or Lime away doesn't have some application where it's possibly beneficial But we do want to be conscientious of the fact that the those chemicals have effects on biology that even breathing them have Effects on biology after the fact and those are they're not effects on biology that we want to have unconsciously So you have companies like sevens generation and heathers and things that people can get even in the grocery store that are More eco-friendly both from their effect on the environment and their effect on humans in the environment where they're clean and then you have some Companies that make really kind of high-tech things with High-tech nature tech cleaning products that can be very effective with different essential oils and Supanified natural fatty acids and so yeah, I'm not I'm not affiliated with any of the companies I'm about to mention but seventh generation certainly I have a couple of those products And I'm glad that you said that because that makes me feel good about buying them And then there's honest the honest company, which is the company created by the Hollywood actress Jessica Albert and Are you familiar with their products so that the honest company products healthy as healthy as I can get as well Daniel? I have seen them and Heard good things about them, but I can't speak to the chemistry off the top of my head. Okay You mentioned global travel. How is global travel affecting our nervous system? Lots of things I was speaking from the point of view of pathogens which was before we had global travel We had the pathogens that would have been within a bio region that would have been things that we had Evolved immune system and microbiome to deal with well and when we travel We have the possibility of getting exposed to a lot more pathogens that we don't have In a immunity to deal with and so there's of course beautiful things about our ability to travel and get exposed to other ways of looking at the world and You know people worldviews, but there are there are other effects of that that we have to be conscientious of and So the answer of just more vaccines for every place you go also has consequences and so it just these are If we have a system that's going to be exposed to more pathogens and pathogens that it didn't evolve to deal with in recent history Well, then again, we would just say that's a place where we want to have more immune system support Just like we'd want to have more detox system supported for exposed to more environmental toxins Let's highlight just a couple of other problems and then we'll get into some possible solutions here Staring at a screen What are the problems with that? well beyond the The backlighting and the lumens and the specific kind of The kelvins the specific kind of spectral frequencies of light that I imagine your listeners all understand quite well a few other things That can be problematic about it is that it's a fixed focal length and so if I'm looking at a computer that is 12 inches or 18 or however many inches from my face then the focal length of my eyes for being able to focus very close and very far Is not getting engaged in those are muscles and in an evolutionary environment We would have been not looking at a very fixed focal length for all that much time, right? We would have been looking further off and seeing trees up close in the process of that dynamic movement of the eye Musculature to be able to focus near and far is part of what helps keep that musculature healthy and prevent the kind of Vision loss that we consider so natural with age it happened before computer screens with books for us But fixed focal length for very long period of time. There's an easy solution for that, which is every 15 minutes half an hour that you're looking at a book or a screen just look far away You know and let your eyes focus look at something very close let your eyes focus so musculature stays engaged There's also a postural effect of if I'm looking at a screen If it involves me not moving very much then of course we have all of the Neurological myofocial effects of just being very sedentary But if the posture of the ergonomics themselves have me looking down and taking the s-curve out of my cervical spine the C-curve out of my cervical spine You know, then I'm gonna be dealing with those postural effects, so computers are awesome international travels awesome and To the degree that we're interfacing with it for one set of reasons, but it's having other effects We just want to understand those effects and know how to Augment any possible negatives because I got a Lifespan treadmill desk and I'm as I'm recording this with you now I'm standing on it. I'm not actually walking on it at the moment But I I now for the most part work at a computer standing up and initially I thought I was so clever But then I realized that I didn't have a computer stand on my desk So my computer was actually down at kind of chest level and so my head was kind of you know Aiming down a little bit rather rather than straight.  I'm on a treadmill desk.  So laptops are are pretty profoundly suboptimal ergonomics and as much as we can say that we'd like people on not on computers, which is Not necessarily Realistic for what the work they have to do in the world. It's also meaningful or that we want them on ergonomically Perfect computer setups, which when they're traveling is going to be hard At least understanding the dynamics so one can counterbalance them But for most people the ergonomics that are going to be important is if you're looking straight ahead Meaning not down and not up you would like to be looking slightly up from there If you're going to be in one place for a long period of time so that the Natural C curve in the cervical spine is being supported rather than otherwise So where we're generally looking a little bit down Then we end up getting the muscles in the back of the neck and the suboccipital muscles getting tight causing all of the kind Dynamics that come from that and so if someone puts their monitor Higher than they normally would where the center point of their monitor is around eye level And then they usually want their keyboard low and that we can get into ergonomic keyboards so that the shoulders aren't up that That's generally keyboard low monitor high is a kind of first rule of thumb. I love it Well, I'm now you've inspired me to put my computer up even higher now So I'm going to make sure I do that when we when we finish this interview. Thank you for the for the tip there Two more things I want to talk about Before we move on to a little bit more about neuro hacking But we're talking to Daniel Schmuckdenberger and you can check out what he does over at neuro hacker comm That's neuro hacker comm you can read all about what it means to be a neuro hacker Wi-Fi I Love Wi-Fi everywhere everywhere. I go now when I travel. It's like I need Wi-Fi I need Wi-Fi. We're all addicted to Wi-Fi when I was down in Sydney, Australia recently They've got free Wi-Fi on Bondi Beach And when I was traveling through the Baltic area in Latvia, Lithuania everywhere you go is public Wi-Fi free everywhere I'm in my apartment here in Los Angeles. I've got the super duper high-speed Wi-Fi just running through the whole place What are the potential dangers of Wi-Fi and or too much Wi-Fi? This is a tricky and harder to answer question When we think about wireless Transmission in general, so we're talking about EMF and RF. So we're looking at Wi-Fi. We're looking at Bluetooth We're also looking at 60 Hertz EMF that is the AC in our house. We're looking at EMF fields from batteries motors, etc What we're also looking at police signal transmission military signal, you know other frequencies of radio What we know is that the total amount of wireless energy that people are Exposed to has been on a power law like Moore's law since the 60s as We have had more cell towers and more satellites and more frequencies We are doubling the amount of transmission that we're exposed to something like every 18 months that means that we are In a very high number of order of magnitudes more Total wireless transmission Then we ever were in an evolutionary environment that that is going to have some physiologic effect is pretty easy to buy That basically when you measure EEG when you measure EKG you're measuring biosignals And that there's actually electrical signal processing. That is how we work right electrical signal processing is core to how our Nervous system works that it's sensitive and that all signals end up affecting all other signals through wave interference Exactly how it affects us. There's a lot of research that is conflicting on and different countries have done research very differently largely based on the How big telecom is affecting the way their government does research? very much like pharma effects of You know government funding research, so we're actually doing a meta-analysis and structured review of all of the research done from all the company all the countries in the world right now on the topic of wireless transmission and You know potential cancer effects potential oxidative Effects of sub ionizing radiation in humans and other biology So we actually should have the best information on that topic Available soon, but we still have a lot of interpretation to do and when you're doing meta-analysis where the Initial pieces of data that you're looking at are questionable to begin with it's tricky, but I would say that for people to be thoughtful about their exposure is warranted and To take easy steps like not keeping your cell phone near your bed at night and not Having unlimited amounts of cell phone and other access and turning your Wi-Fi router off at night Just the easy steps one can do seem very well warranted and anecdotally Many people who have left Cities and went to places where they had almost no wireless exposure and deep wilderness describe Psycho-neuro dynamics, especially sleep issues, but anxiety, anorexia going away now Whether that's just to being in nature is beautiful whether it's the stress of the city whether it's small And there's so many factors that that's close to meaningless on its own But we also notice a number of people who've put themselves inside of Faraday cages and found much better sleep So I would say that research-wise we don't know fully But there's good reason to think it's something worth paying attention to is it possible that In 20 years or two years or whatever we're going to realize that cell phones and Wi-Fi Is gonna be as damaging to us as we now know that smoking is is to us for years Nobody realized nobody thought that smoking was bad for you and then all of a sudden in the 50s and 60s It's still started to sort of catch on or actually we're starting to see some correlation here between smoking and Being unfit and heart disease. Is it possible that One day not so long from now or a long time from now.  I can't believe we're using cell phones. We were absolutely killing ourselves Entirely possible damn. I would say that it is Probable that we will realize some effects that seem unacceptable to us with I'm not quantifying how much compared to cigarettes But some effects now Cigarettes are pretty easy, which is we just don't actually need them, right? Um Wi-Fi and just wireless energy transmission and not just wireless but energy transmission in general We're just not gonna go backwards from that So I think one of the things that's going to happen is we're gonna start Realizing that just like, you know, we're not gonna stop having cleaning products We're gonna make better cleaning products where we pay attention to how the molecules and the cleaning products actually interface with biology I think we're gonna start paying attention to understanding biosignals better and what are the primary kind of EEG EKG cellular signaling biosignals that are most sensitive and Starting to develop wireless transmission Thoughtfully in terms of the spectral ranges that it works in to how it'll interface with biology where like Tesla Hypothesized that it could actually be a healing force rather than a illness force All right, let's do one more before we move on to some talk about no tropics and I want to talk about a little bit about qualia, which is a smart drug that you have developed We're talking you talked a little bit before about emotional feelings and the tribe and I mentioned, you know, Dunbar's I think it was 150 people. That's the tribe. How are we? How are we struggling with either having too many Facebook friends or having? Being connected to too many people like what's what's going on here? How is this affecting? affecting us so the primatologist Dunbar Took an observation that many people had had previously which is that most indigenous tribes capped out at around 150 people give or take Maxed out around 225 in a few cases, but generally 150 and then if they got bigger than that they would bifurcate Or intentionally limit their size and there's a question as to why and he found that there was a similar thing that happened in all kinds of primates and that the size of the troop they could hold was actually proportional to Neocortical volume and the idea was that we actually have a limited number of unique Relationships that we can actually process well and so when you've got about 150 people You can actually know everybody in that village well know their lives or history what's going on and that works If you're gonna have a village where everyone is gonna impact everyone knowing everybody caring about everybody Being able to see in real-time your effect on them is part of what makes social cohesion works as soon as you start having Enough people that you actually can't track everybody Then you start having anonymous people and you start having people where if they're suffering You don't kind of care as much and then you can have effects that could lead to them suffering But you don't care as much so you can't have social cohesion in the same way now obviously we are not going to move back to a world of just Dunbar number tribes because You also would then have to have technology that only is you know is back to the technology of that time where you're only effecting that number of people and obviously our technology extends our impact to now global There's and there's actually what we can think of that was the first insight There's multiple Dunbar numbers, which is numbers where different social dynamics occur one on one is the first right? Then small groups three four then up to about 12 or 15 Etc. So it's really not a problem how many people you've been exposed to or how many people you have friends on Facebook it There is a need to have some deep meaningful Interactions with some number of people which will probably be less than your total number of friends on Facebook And it's important to understand the difference of in-person deep meaningful human interactions where you deeply know them They deeply know you and you can be authentic with each other Then the kinds of interactions that are mediatable over social media So stop focusing on trying to get a hundred thousand Instagram fans and Facebook likes and start really going in and and concentrating on the quality of Relationships rather than the quantity It's a I really want to say I'm a technologist. Mm-hmm. I Am just about right use of technology understanding all of the effects of it I have nothing wrong with someone getting a hundred thousand likes on Facebook if they're sharing a message It's meaningfully benefiting the world and having more people hear that that is actually making a better world I just want them to understand that that doesn't equal deep interpersonal human connection And that a bunch of people liking them on Facebook also isn't going to give them a meaningful sense of esteem It's going to give them some quick external reference dopamine hits Uh, they can cover up the fact that something in their childhood didn't teach them who they were and made them externally referential for other people's approval about who they are But it's not bad To develop a following it just needs to be for the right reason and if the reason is self-esteem or connection It's the wrong tool for that job We're talking to daniel schmucktenberger the co-founder of nero hacker. Uh, nero hacker. I should say collective Um, daniel, what are what are no tropics? A lot of people ask me about this and I don't actually have a very clear answer Um, but just explain to me what what it what exactly are no tropics I'll make a distinction between three different terms that are often used kind of synonymously, but are worth uh defining differently brain nutrients no tropics and smart drugs So when we think of brain nutrients, we think about nutrients. It would be part of a natural diet That are involved in healthy brain function that either we might be deficient in or that we can actually utilize more of and it will Uh, you know, meaningfully bolster our capabilities. So we're talking about vitamins and minerals and antioxidants here so to the degree that there are Key nutrients so when people are talking about the effects of minerals like magnesium or lithium or zinc or et cetera on brain function Or vitamin d or phospholipids or essential fatty acids. Those are all brain nutrients That one would ideally get in a healthy diet But because again, like we said It's very hard to get adequate amounts of those in a healthy diet and we have increased demand because say we're talking about b vitamins We to the degree that you're experiencing more Uh psychological stress than you would in an evolutionary environment. You're going to burn through b vitamins quicker um, so supplementing the appropriate brain nutrients can be useful the distinction there is that's going to take you from deficiency to Not deficiency, which means your normal healthy baseline of cognitive and psychologic function will be supported It's not going to move you beyond baseline capacity because those are elements that are part of the evolutionary environment, right? So smart drugs and otropics are distinct in that they are not nutrients that would be part of a normal diet. They are some kind of Additional set of chemistry synthetic or natural that are going to try and modulate some systems Uh for enhanced capability So no tropic generally means A chemical that can enhance some aspect of cognitive function Like memory or focus or attention or verbal fluency or task switching So some nutrient that can modulate some aspect of cognitive function beyond someone's normal healthy baseline Without meaningful side effects. That's a general definition of a no tropic and then a smart drug is Usually and these terms are Don't have solid semantic definitions. They're they're kind of uh Slaying terms, but i'm going to give you the best general definitions smart drug are usually pharmaceuticals That have some cognitive benefit generally for off-label purposes. So these are um either psychiatric meds Like add or riddolin or welbutrin or narcolepsy meds like uh medaffinil or all simers meds or parkinson's meds levodopa things like that that Can increase wakefulness increase focus increase, you know, something um smart drugs Can enhance some aspect of cognitive function that someone wants to experience and you know hypothetically this could be not just pharma drugs But any drug you could put cocaine or methamphetamine or other drugs into those categories where they do Modulate some neurotransmitter like dopamine in a way that will have some cognitive effect But usually with some meaningful side effects immediate side effects like They might up regulate focus but increase anxiety or paranoia or irritability or something like that Um, and they might also have long-term side effects which could be anything from like real physiological issues of pathotoxicity or something but also just dependence right addiction forming because They're taking something like dopamine or acetylcholine or glutamate or some neurotransmitter usually That your body naturally regulates and they're overriding the natural regulatory process to spike it And in doing so If you do that enough times can actually override the natural regulatory process where it becomes dependent on that exogenous input That's what we call addiction Uh no tropics the goal with no tropics and it's why it's like kind of an almost like magic unicorn idea Is that there are some chemistries That can be added to the system that can enhance some aspect of function without creating meaningful short term or long term side effects So i've all so obviously the way that you're describing it. No tropics Improves your cognitive function above your average functionality without the side effects smart drugs if we How to take your explanation is Can also improve cognitive effect and they're good for things like ad and alzheimer's but they come with problems They come with potential short and long term Effects and I think there was a third one. They're brain nutrients, right? I think you broke it into You can just explain brain nutrients again as opposed as that is different from the smart drugs and the no tropics essential fatty acids essential amino acids vitamins minerals antioxidants the things that you would normally get from food That either you're not getting enough of from food or that it's beneficial to get additional amounts of based on what You know what we're exposed to how much we're actually using our brains and the cognitive load So these are basically Brain nutrients are either going to be things that could be found in food or things that could be found Indogenously in the body that the body would make from food Gotcha. Okay. So you're obviously a proponent of no tropics of all those three, correct? And brain nutrients, but not so much with the smart drugs Well again, like I said bleach has a right application and um Any drug can have a right application But in general there is such a There is such a profound complexity to how human physiology works and complex means something different than complicated A Circuit ship is complicated. It was designed externally. You put a certain number of transistors linked them in particular way A cell is complex itself organizing its boundary is non arbitrary complex systems behave and fundamentally different and more Organizing dynamic kind of ways than complicated systems. So when we look at human physiology and especially the brain it's such a radically complex self-organizing Dynamic homeostatic system that we don't want to override that right? So if someone's dopamine is low Our goal isn't to just give them in-chain dopamine or a dopamine agonist It would be to say well, let's see if we can understand The dopamine-ergic system better and see how to support that system's Indogenous regulatory capacity So that the intervention that we're doing actually leads to lasting up regulation rather than Short-term stimulus and then lasting down regulation. So in general for all kinds of inputs to biology I'm interested in things that understand And that seek to better understand the body's natural dynamic homeostatic processes and seek to work with and upregulate them rather than override them Gotcha. Okay so Let's go back to neuro hacker collective. Um, which is the organization that you that you co-founded What is its purpose? What is its mission? And What is unique about its approach to neuro hacking and applied psychoneuro optimization? Yeah, um, so neuro hacker collective our goal is Optimizing the mind-brain interface For the optimization of human experience and human capability writ large And so we are technology agnostic meaning Biochemical technologies that's both direct to consumer like no tropics and Nutraceuticals as well as things that could be, you know, doctor mediated for Medical conditions and general things that are direct to consumer are going to be And neuro hacking the way we think of it usually is not for curing illness, but for optimization well-being support and enhancement um But a complexity approach and a systems biology approach to medicine is also very meaningful and part of the deeper research that we're involved in Um, but so, you know, we work with biochemical solutions. We work with microbiomic solutions We're interested in genomic solutions in neuro tech trans cranial lasers trans cranial direct stem alternating current, you know ultrasound eeg neuro feedback as well as psychotherapeutic and you know meditative technologies working with the human hardware and software We're interested in anything that basically can up regulate some aspect of human experience to have a better human experience or human capacity um For any kind of personal condition and the reason why this is so meaningful for us is All of the other issues that we care about in the world beyond Human experience and capacity are affected by human experience and capacity all the major problems that we see environmentally and socially Etc are caused by human activity And the solutions need to come about through human activity So upgrading the comprehensive collective intelligence of humanity not just cognitive intelligence, but Uh interpersonal intelligence, you know, et cetera ends up Being a meaningful lever for every other thing worth doing Now to that extent you've created Your own products called qualia q u a l i a Um, and i'm presuming this is a no-tropic right? Yes, so tell us a little bit about what this is like So tell us a little bit about why qualia is a little different and what typical experiences people might have If they take this product that you've created So like I said, we're working on a lot of different areas of technology Qualia is the first product that we have brought to market We have quite a few other products and trials that will be coming to market this year and then some relatively difficult ones that will take a little bit longer, but are are developing well the goal with qualia was When we look at the give or take 15 billion dollars a year domestically in energy drinks and how much kind of caffeine stimulus happens and if we look at the estimated something like five billion dollars in off-label aterol use not Justified doctor aterol use which we can question if it's ever a good thing but just people who are for their midterms or finals or tech startup, whatever seeking that kind of enhancement because There is an increased demand for productivity And cognitive productivity beyond what there's ever been while having more things trying to distract from focus and you know Also stresses on the nervous system like we've talked about The thing about Aterol and other smart drugs and just shit tons of caffeine is That while they can positively affect some metrics, which is why people use them Many of the other metrics that are critical are actually being down regulated in real time. So we can see For most people when they're taking Aterol that their focus will go up their drive will go up But certain aspects of creative thinking and systemic thinking and even aspects of memory go down Let alone emotional things like empathy going down and then long-term health effects So we wanted to see can we develop something that would meet the same need people's desire To be able to go into creative productive flow states where their full cognitive capabilities were available Can we do that more comprehensively than has been done so far and more safely And we started by doing this in integrative clinical settings where we were running people's whole genome We were running a lot of clinical chemistry. We were running brain scans We're getting medical history and we were really dialing in You know personalized chemistry for people Then the question was could we Take some element of that that would work across a bell curve of people and And meaningfully be able to affect them because personalized chemistry at scale is tricky. We're working on it We're actually working on moving from the one version of qualia to multiple versions in the future all the way to You know lab-based fully customized Chemistry pharmacology But we were really surprised at how well we were able to do taking a systems approach to natropics where we were You know, we started out by modeling when people are taking Some smart drug or something to that effect. What are they really seeking and we did the kind of the cognitive science of they're they're seeking Short-term memory and long-term memory and speed of memory and digit span and verbal fluency and task switching And creative thinking and critical thinking You know analysis and synthesis and a bunch of emotional things like emotional resilience and drive And you know, so we were looking at that whole set of things together and then saying All right, we want to be able to affect that whole set not a subset of it And then what are the underlying? Physiologic pathways that mediate all that which ones are mediated via acetylcholine or glutamate or catecholamines or ion channels or So we mapped that out Used kind of systems dynamics for looking at how those all interact with each other and the and the pathways that regulate them And then looked at the chemistry that maps to those And then started our kind of hypothesis development process for what we could do to upregulate all of those systems Simultaneously in a way that would actually upregulate the regulatory capacity of the system Where after someone had been on it for a while rather than get addicted and downregulated it could actually have Lasting baseline elevation So let's just say I take I take qualia. What's my first week going to be like? What's a typical experience of someone who? Uses qualia in the first week and then you know second third and you know short term and then long term Um So We have done a bunch of internal, uh, you know single-blinded trials. We're just Engaged in our first double-blinded trials right now, but we don't have results. I can't make any claim about what one will experience I can say what many people have claimed and many people is quite large numbers for us now Um, and obviously it's going to be different experiences for different people I want to say first qualia is actually not recommended for everyone. There are contra indications um specifically if people are on psychiatric meds or neurologic meds Or treating cancer or treating hypertension then we would not recommend people use it without consulting Their appropriate healthcare practitioner first This doesn't mean that there are not healthcare practitioners that are using it and recommending it for such people In knowledgeable ways we wouldn't recommend people do it on their own because there are chances of interactions So that said Uh for people that it's not contra indicated We're getting an extremely high positive success rate This the small percentage of people about 16 percent of people that describe a null effect They don't experience very much Are almost exclusively because they have sleep issues Um, if people are not getting adequate delta sleep So if they're not sleeping enough or not sleeping well qualia will usually not work well for them because memory consolidation happens during delta sleep and we're specifically working with chemistry that is mediated through the memory consolidation pathways So one of the things we say is you know that it's that it really is critical that people are sleeping well And if you have apnea or noctuary or something like that probably going to need to address that first Of the people who are using it and having good experiences um There are testimonials on the website, but increased focus attention concentration insight actual emotional steadiness emotional regulation Many people describing increased epiphany increased empathy All of those things are fairly common All right, we're talking to daniel schmuckdenberger co-founder of neuro hacker collective I just had a look on your website while we were talking there and I see a couple Of testimonials of people that I actually know as erica lee and tj anderson. There's a few people there I know live down in the san diego area If you're listening to this and you want to follow The work of of neuro hacker collective There is a facebook page called neuro hacker collective You can go and like that page and be kept up to date with everything at daniel schmuckdenberger And his team are doing in terms of emotional resilience. No tropics outsmarting the modern world As we've been talking about uh, is there anywhere else or our listeners Can find you daniel anywhere else? Do you'd like us to go? I think the facebook page and the website are good resources right now if you go to the website Um, you'll get a hint on the ethos page of what we're working on beyond what our current offering is But mostly you'll see information about quali and there's a decent bit of information about The chemistry and the scientific approach that we use and you know, there's information that's worth looking at the blog has some Very interesting articles But what we're really working towards is Being able to vet all of the different technologies that can meaningfully enhance people's psychology and cognition This is everything from the psychotherapeutic technologies to psychedelic assisted psychotherapy to You know all forms of neurotech really vetting which ones are effective and that are effective not just at short-term and partial effects but positive system up regulation And then effective for what for what kinds of people for what kinds of pathway issues etc being able to synthesize all that Then being able to develop a platform where people can upload personal data that is synthesized with a you know unique kind of AI like combinatorial algorithms. They can then be able to direct people to What technologies have the highest probability of being most meaningful for them for the kinds of things they're wanting to work on And then being able to have a deeper version of that available for medical practitioners really pioneering the future of personalized medicine where we can Synthesize all of the diagnostics and synthesize all of the therapeutics customize the therapeutics based on this kind of deeper interpretive model and so We don't say too much about that yet because you know We want to share about the things as we're able to release meaningful offerings But if you keep checking in you'll see more in that way Terrific. Well, thank you very much for explaining the difference between no tropics smart drunks and brain nutrients. This is a fascinating conversation i'm going to make sure that My farmer's market down on Let's see. What's what road is it on? I think it's on Santa Monica Boulevard I might be on something else actually there's a farmer's market that I've been meaning to go to but I don't go to it Because I take the lazy route I must hit that now hit that now and start asking The types of questions that you ask that you encourage me to ask so I appreciate that Thank you very much for sharing your experience Daniel. I really appreciate that if you're listening make sure you like the neurohacker Collective Facebook page And you can go and check out more at neurohacker.com. Thank you sir for your time. I appreciate it Daniel James i'm i'm really happy to see all of the Important empowering brilliant work. You're showing the people and it's a delight to be on here. Thank you. Thank you, sir


All right, welcome to the Drag Race, December Drag Race. We have a 2013 Smart Car versus the 2017 SRT8. Let's hear what they sound like. So there's our Smart Car. Let's hear the SRT8. Ready, three, four, little Rudolph.


The Bemidji City Council has postponed a decision on whether to modify or change a dress code for the city's iconic statues, Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox. The 2014 decision by the council banned any objects being placed on the statues. Recently, organizers of Bemidji's Hockey Day Minnesota event dressed Paul Bunyan in a Minnesota Wild Jersey after the group said it received permission from the city to do so. City officials tonight at a work session said staff was aware the Jersey was going to be placed on Paul Bunyan. Still the move sparked concerns from some in the community and the city will now consider drafting a proposal that could allow some items to be placed on the landmark. I think what's important about this discussion at the end of the day is maybe not so much looking back at what happened. It can't happen without, if it's a policy of an ordinance, you've got to follow the policy or the ordinance. I think that's what has to come out of the discussion today. But if you want to know exactly what happened, I think there may be people here that know what happened, but they probably don't want the repercussion. The rest of tonight's work session discussed planning for Hockey Day Minnesota and our Josh Peterson will have a complete story on that tomorrow night on Lakeland News. If you enjoyed this segment of Lakeland News, please consider making a tax-deductible contribution to Lakeland PBS.


Good morning For me, it's not even It's really early morning because I flew from San Francisco this morning. I landed at 8 a.m. Here Just rushed to the conference. So hopefully I will be a Bit and not get you sleepy Technical content might be Well, it might be a little bit technical. So we'll see and us all the topics will continue being technical It may be good that if you have a question then you can raise the question as you have it because otherwise we will be moving to many other different topics and then It may be better to To have all the questions at once So I work for a company called Linaro Linaro is an organization That is profit neutral and it's formed by a number of members companies like Google Facebook Alibaba arm Cisco Nokia Ericsson Huawei ZTE Broadcom TI well 35 members that are collaborating to to build software to build software from the mobile handsets the tablets the Setup boxes the TV systems industrial embedded systems Servers and also networking so that I'm in charge of the networking department of Linaro and those members as I said so for the networking department you have Cisco Nokia Ericsson Huawei ZTE and So that's a pretty good set of companies to get requirements from So I'm going to talk about VPP and what ODP brings to to ODP I worked for six win before joining Linaro, so I know pretty well DP DK and I thought I knew ODP as well because I thought it was the DP DK of arm and Actually, I was completely wrong, but I did not know at what point I was wrong I'll try to explain when I came to understand as I Started to work with Linaro and the guys that imagined ODP so from a software data plane perspective There are two families of software data planes the ones that I call software Implemented which means that all the packets go through the CPU cores So you have an input port you have some handling some queues it goes to DP DK VPP and it goes to another run exit port All the flow all the packets go through a CPU core. That's the model So DP DK is one of such software implemented data plane You can consider a net map is an is another one or windows packet direct can be considered also as a software implemented data plane Open data plane is different. It says that at the bottom we have a Pipeline or if you wish a limited graph if you compare to VPP which has a very complex Full-feature graph with loops at the heart of ODP there is a Small pipeline of hardware blocks which can run entirely autonomously to switch packets from input port to output port So here you have a classifier, which is some kind of a generalization of RSS handling scheduler Layer X for warding or maybe IP sec or and then traffic manager for Shaping at the exit you have other other topics so the scheduler scheduler role is multi-fold but Out of it you can also We'll talk about a little bit of packet ordering so the ODP API actually Configures this pipeline what are each block which each block is doing and how they are chained and then When it's configured it can run as I said entirely autonomously So you could build a 100 terabit switch and control it through ODP API With a single arm core which would be just doing the programation of the hardware so you could think of ODP as a combination of DPDK and switch dev for example You know in a single in a single product Now you can also decide to extract traffic from any of those hardware blocks or functional blocks in In the pipeline and directed to an arm core So you have in that case. It's more. It's closer to a DPDK mode of behavior You can do that for all traffic You can do that for a selecting set of traffic and you can do it At different exit point of the graph so you could think of the ODP application of some kind of customized node of the ODP graph So you might say okay, that's a different but What does it buy me? so I'm I Can't be very precise on the figures because they are not public yet but to do a 20 gig IPsec Node you know for a SD1 you have let's assume that you have an SD1 box sitting at a branch office You want 10 gigabit uplink and downlink And you want the box to cause the least amount possible so We did measurements with an arm system with one core The cost of the system public price the box I mean not not the entire box, but the motherboard plus the CPU plus well Without the optics without the SFPs around $100 and you have 20 gigabit of I mix throughput That can be done in IPsec You could have so that's I mix that's not just large packets If you push the packets size to 64 bytes, then the throughput uplink downlink is 11 gigabit per second For $100 the box if you do that with another microprocessor Still so see with with with ports You have to have between the four and eight cores more probably eight or even well eight to do at least 20 gig of large packets not I mix and the cost will be between 1000 and $2000 the system so Here I would say there might be technical philosophies that are different But bottom line that's the bottom line which is important and if you take the The other microprocessor vendor with the PDK, so that's the cost I've said but if you do that with ODP and the and how we will handle the the existing acceleration you will be able to get a lower processor and You know the processor pricing is not linear. So if you go to Four cores, it's not half the price is more than half the price So here what I say is that on the same hardware on not an arm system with ODP by using this pipelining of Hardware function you can really use the hardware as much as possible So that's the fundamental difference. I Did not understood why I was doing DP DK. So I really thought ODP was a DP DK on arm and that's definitely not the case What are the other differences? Well the programming model is a little bit different It is even based well, it's not because it is even based that it cannot do run to completion But it you when you create very large applications not a layer three forwarding application, but you know as we have a large network equipment providers when they build products You have a team of 50 people that build one module you have a team of 50 people that build one module and then you have other teams that build products out of those modules and The the team that have worked on independent modules have worked really independently Ultimately when they assemble those modules and they fit together to build a product a cloud run system or a PE router or something else They Assemble modules so they need an extremely fast Even framework behind it. So that's almost the same idea of VPP with the modules but at the with the plugins but at the application module level one thing for IPsec is The fat pipe so you can reach high performance on IPsec Essentially when you have a number of tunnels usually a few hundred tunnels then the The figures you see in the benchmarks show the performance with large packets with large number of tunnels but when you have real situation you usually have only one tunnel from Let's say the SD one endpoint to the aggregation layer and You would like to have that single tunnel to reach 10 gig but to be able to do that you have to take into account packet ordering and packet ordering is also part of the ODP framework It's part of the framework in in in the sense that it's either done in hardware by One functional block part of the pipeline or we have also a software implementation for systems that do not provide a packet ordering pipeline The packet ordering pipeline is also Is one of the things that is necessary because when you have packets coming in from one tunnel if you have RSS They will all go to one queue So if you have a DPDK program in model you will have to implement an internal Queue management to actually dispatch The packets to different cores, but you will have to build that infrastructure by hand In ODP. This is part of the ODP frameworks or the application does not have to do it. So That's the essential differences But one thing which is important for me is that who would build actually an application on DPDK and ODP today I Guess the best approach to developing application is better to use VPP and create a plug-in rather than do everything alone or to use open fast path as a socket API for application servers for example but Yeah, you have to understand the low-level details of each data plane Library But you should not maybe consider developing directly on those applications rather developing on VPP or ODP I will dig a little bit more on on the differences and What happens when you reach 50 gig or even 25 and above Let's take 50 gig because 50 gig seems to be the the most liked Connectivity for network equipment vendors in the telco industry If you look at Facebook, they also use a 100 gig. So 50 gig is 74 million packets per second 74 millions packet per second that's huge but there is a catch and It was it was not mentioned earlier by the Intel people for the PCI aspect But there is a limitation on the PCI bus Which can conclude 36 million DMA transactions per second so if you have 36 million DMA transaction on one hand and 74 million packet per second on the other hand there's a problem You can dance whatever Dance you can It the packet won't go through unless you switch more than one packet per DMA transaction But if you Stitch more than one packet per DMA transaction This means that the software does not control where the hardware plays the packet The hardware decides where it puts the packet because it has a DMA engine policy and When you talk to Xilinx and other guys that that work at 400 gig you know for Design phase of 400 gig adapters the key element is the DMA engine. How do we push those packets? through whatever interconnect to the CPU cores so What what's the catch here when I say it's the hardware that decides where the packet push places the packet Where with DPDK the software decides where the packet are the software List a set of buffers and informs the hardware. Please put the packets in those places Which are typically 2k aligned So if you have 2k aligned packet buffers the hardware cannot coalesce multiple packets into one DMA transaction to fit into the model So by construction you cannot do line rates on a single 50 gig port or 100 gig port On the on the on the on the model on the data plane that don't let the hardware decide where it puts the packets So you can have you can trick the system. So there is a one Company called net cope has a 100 gig Card based on xilinx and it has a PMD for that But the PMD actually deals with the native packets Internally in internal buffers and as the buffers are received or the packets are received on those proprietary buffers in a sequential manner. They are then copied into DPDK buffers and Conversely for the exit point. So this means that You have incoming 100 gig which is roughly 15 gigabyte per second of data That goes to RAM you copy it then it's an additional Lose of layer 3 cache and then as you're using the memory resources you can't build an application So the application that is demonstrated at 100 gig to switch packets from one port to the other is Really a switching a port switching application. I get a packet from port A I send it to B and from B to A. I don't look at the header I don't do any routing table. I don't do anything else But you can't do anything else because the memory subsystem is entirely clogged by the memory copies So we hope to let's say to unleash those 50 gig and 100 gig interfaces when We'll have the drivers for ODP natively and ODP is by the way not just ARM but also x86 This is a Mandatory point from our members that ODP has to run at full speed on x86 also So if you go to the other open data plane website, you will find multiple implementations of ODP There is one which is linux generic, which is a reference implementation and You have a number of vendor specific Implementation one for KVM one for TI one for nxp etc We we are in the process of building another one which we call ODP cloud Which in in the spirit of ODP cloud is to be able to work on any Silicon Silicon specific ARM silicon specific architectures with a various set of hardware accelerations and Have a unified git repo, but for the moment it looks like there are forked projects from ODP that's not the case but from a Let's say organization perspective who would like the project to look more ODP DK where you have One binary that can handle all the hardware. So that's where we That's where we want to go with ODP cloud By the way, yeah when one thing ODP can be implemented in in strange environments. So We have one company Calray who was some sort of GPU Without a new operating system in it Which has a specific memory model for the cores where the cores have private memory and Can access some shared memory much like the GPUs can have the texture memory and then local memory local memory cannot be accessed from another core so Technically speaking, they cannot implement DPDK on their on their hardware because the memory model is not able to cope with that but with ODP you can accommodate any kind of Execution environment so that was ODP and DPDK Both are very good solutions. They may serve different needs for different markets So hopefully you haven't understood that I consider ODP as being better than the PDK. They are different They're served different needs In some cases it has some business value of choosing one versus the other not from a technical perspective Now how VPP and ODP fit together Well, quite naturally as I said that the ODP is at its very heart some kind of limited graph so In the previous presentation you had an IPsec presentation Let's say a graph of how IPsec was done in VPP by adding nodes Well those nodes could be in the ODP graph in the hardware So You have the VPP configuration for IPsec The ODP input which is the equivalent of DPDK input in the VPP graph can add or push packets in the normal ether input so the layer 2 Input or because it has done the whole IPsec thing Directly push the the packets to the IP4 input node or IP6 input node of the VPP graph So rather than going through all the different steps of IPsec you can Establish some some shortcuts in the VPP graph because they have been offloaded in The ODP pipeline so that's why there is a very natural fit between VPP and ODP VPP has an event model program programming ODP also. So this is kind of a very simple So we have created a project in FIDO called ODP for VPP where we open source all the the This input node so that you can leverage the ODP That will be available on the distribution now. Where would you put? VPP with ODP if I I Want let's say that you can place VPP ODP in the host. That's the typical Placement You can also entirely offloaded to a smart nick So there is no VPP in the host the VPP instance is in the smart nick The honeycomb agent is either in the host or on the smart nick For the Calray for example the the honeycomb agent cannot fit in the GPU so the honeycomb agent will be in the host controlling the VPP in the smart nick for KVM Oction TX smart nick which hold which can have an entire Linux inside so the The honeycomb agent will be local to the smart nick But you can also deploy on both the host and the smart nick and that's probably the best deployment option And one reason is the east-west traffic between VMs if you do traffic if you do have the traffic from one VM to the other go through the PCI bus you Basically, you cannot do a 40 gig service chain on the system Because the PCI Slot has a 50 gig uplink and downlink limit so if you go from VMA to VMB you go down so that's 40 gig I was mentioning a 40 gig so 40 gig one 40 gig upstream so that's okay Now you want to go from VMB to VMC you have to go 40 gig down again on the same PCI slot Too bad you already had consumed you're already consuming 40 gig from VMA to VMB, so you cannot do that So you cannot build a 40 gig service chain with an embedded switch on hosted on the smart nick So that's why if you deploy VPP on the host and on the smart nick they can both collaborate to make sure that for east-west traffic the host VPP can do the East-west traffic and the smart nick helps on the IP sec termination or routing if you have a Very large internet if you have the whole internet routing table on the on the To handle that's about 8 gigabyte of memory and 600 thousand routes Some network operators in the world Push that type of Routing table at the very edge of the network so that Subscribers when they reach aggregation the very first level of aggregation They know how to exit the network to the best exit point for their the destination if they go to Asia They will follow a proper route if they go to us or YouTube or Netflix They will immediately take the the best route So having the offloading that to the smart nick may be very beneficial so that's First part of my talk, which is what we are currently doing We'll have demos in September on VPP ODP demos with performance We expect to show 50 gig line rate 50 64 bytes packets With one solution and also demonstrate the very opposite, which is VPP on a on a on a Nailed size chip with a few bugs to build to build a very low cost to gateways for the home So it's not because you can do 200 gig switching that you cannot do also efficiently one gig switching We're trying to push things in the PDK so that they realize The good thing that has to be done to make sure that There is some convergence so members are pushing the event model members are pushing things Sorry, I did not hear the event was one of the key When we had this one meeting that's there are three meetings that started this convergence or this discussion One of the things that were identified was the whole event The whole event right mechanism and so my question is is now two years I think I think So how are we almost done or we're still talking about it's getting there. It's getting there, but the The biggest hurdle I see for the moment is what I just talked about the the buffer management if if The very root of DP DK it is that DP DK tells the hardware what to do and when you reach 50 gig and above Line rate you can't do that. So there is a fundamental shift to be done It's technically feasible, but it will require some work and some will to do it And so okay, so this has always been my question Is it a technical problem or is a willing problem and you're saying it's not a technical promise really a willing problem Yeah, well it becomes a technical problem because it changes a little bit the application Structure because the application today the typical DP DK application is I create a memory pool and I tell mr Driver put the packets here The model has to be changed and the application has to Say okay get me some packets and the driver will tell where it has put in which pool it has put the packets So this is not Well, can it be I mean I know I'm simple I can't it be some sort of off Off on switch that says use it or not use it You know you use the DP DK which ends up deciding where it goes or don't use it and just pass it Don't let something else do it if I I will respond to your question differently If there is a will there is a possibility of convergence That's the there is no hard technical hurdle that would prevent addressing all the issues okay, so those are the two areas basically event-driven model and then the The data packet. Yeah, the hardware driven hardware driven path not software driven You and tell guys were here you heard that We're already done ha ha was it 1040 even 40 so That's the plan what what we are going to do very briefly on the vision side What are the things brewing one is what we call direct vertigo, so I will skip those things What what's the idea the idea is to have The smart nicks talk directly to the VMs using vertigo so that there is no Driver dependency or hardware dependency, so it looks good and NXP and Xilinx have done some proof of concepts and too bad. There is something that does not work That's how you handle the available and used Descriptors So a good thing about Etsy is that they have an idea of Leveraging the vertigo but extending the vertigo with some plugins and some additional things and one idea is to actually complement the vertigo model with a specific direct vertigo Virtual function which becomes a hardware function and then you can use that control function in a VM to Make sure that the Packet management the buffer management can be fully controlled by the hardware without involvement from the host and without the tricky Cache line or the DMA problem of handling the The available and used the buffer chains There is also another way to Address the problem and it will be in the arm ecosystem Where there is a new interconnect called C6? C6 is a coherent interconnect between IO and processor So this means that they the processor and the IO can share cache lines So in that case there is no distinction if the memory is controlled by the processor or controlled by the IO So vertigo will be in this in this case fully Offloadable to the hardware so the hardware will be able to talk native vertigo at full speed So it's the benefit of sreov in terms of latency with the benefit of live migration and and and hardware independence of vertigo bottom line if I would suggest Sreov is not mandatory to be high performance and Another proof point another the same measure on an vertigo VM I generated on one queue 142 gigabit of traffic So vertigo is not the the performance. That's the back end Which is if it's ovs. It's a very slow But that the vertigo by itself is not slow. That's the back end. So ODP net is something else Again, we recognize the benefit of single driver hardware agnostic driver for VMs like vertigo So vertigo allows to be completely hardware independent. The idea is to leverage very complex offloads from VMs using a single Abstract PCI device which will be controlled by a single device driver Regardless of if the smart nick comes from KVM NXP Melanox Marvel or others last point if you go to systems that have 400 cores and You have smart nicks It starts to look like the GPU world where you have Applications that may be split between the host and and the smart Nick So you have open CL to have your part of your application run on the host part of your application run on The GPU and in a hardware independent way because that's hidden behind open CL Well, why not doing that also for networking and have ODP CL which will allow you to create application leveraging concepts of open CL and parts of the Parallel aspects will be offloaded to the smart Nick the smart Nick being either a real smart Nick or an FPGA and I've just last week started to talk to FPGA vendors if they like to collaborate on virtio FPGA and Well, it might be possible. Thank you for your Attention, if you have any question, I did not hear very well your question. So there There is a software implementation of the event that model in DPDK and KVM is just upstreaming also for the next DPDK release a hardware implementation So that's that's available. It's it's it's moving forward and Intel and KVM have collaborated to make a An event model that can fit both hardware Environments, you know, we're talking about it. So that's the status at the moment. Yeah, then the problem is the data path with the Hardware driven buffer management. Well, you have the other The packet ordering framework. I'm not sure it's there But if you want to have fat pipes for your customers, you have to have a packet ordering framework so so And if you look at for example IP sake acceleration today As we have the pipeline model, we can have inline IP sake acceleration While with DPDK for the moment, you cannot do you can do only Look aside acceleration which costs a lot because you have packet movements always From the network card to the software back to the accelerator that so all those PCI movements cost Not only latency, but if if you have two one TCP session that goes from A to B the latency result in a TCP window now do not open and Even though the DPDK IP sake acceleration could handle more traffic the endpoint because of the latency Do not open the window and have at least half of the bandwidth or half of the throughput they could handle Yeah, I had a question about the IP sake numbers. You mentioned earlier the 20 gigs Can you talk about what kind of encryption was utilized for that? Oh, it was the typical AES 256 with CBC, I don't remember. No, it's ABC. I Don't remember the but the typical one I mean, I mean a real a real encryption not new New algorithm both on the crypto and hashing algorithm I think we have time for one more question If anyone has any direct questions if you don't mind we have the break. So thank you very much. Thank you, Francois


Debian is a fantastic distribution. I'm in the middle of a long-term review right now And I've been using it now for a couple months on a secondary hard drive and on a on a laptop that I use every day And it is a fantastic distribution. It's very stable and it's very popular The community is very good and very large it has a lot of stuff going for it And I will cover all that in my long-term review which should happen towards the end of the month But the point of this video today is to talk about their website now I have talked about their website before and there have been some updates since then So I wanted to kind of cover those and kind of discuss why their website still is kind of terrible So today we're going to talk about the problem with finding a Debian ISO Let's go ahead and jump in but before we do if you'd leave a thumbs up on this video I'd really appreciate it. It really does help the channel. Let's go ahead and talk about the Debian website So this right here is the Debian website and it is not an ugly website I don't care about the aesthetics Honestly when I judge a distribution's website, I never really care about the aesthetics even though I tend to Gravitate towards distributions that do a better job with making their websites aesthetically pleasing That's really neither here nor there. I don't care really what the website looks like what I want it to be is functional Now in the past when you wanted to find a Debian ISO It was a pain in the rear end. It was really Really bad like horrible And the reason why that was the case is because if you hit the download button Which you'd expect to take directly to the iso you'd get a page that looked something like this And the problem is is that the link on this page before was a link to the iso that had no Non-free software on it So that means any proprietary firmware that you needed to run things like wi-fi cards Or bluetooth adapters or printers or any of that stuff none of that stuff was included on the iso That was the default of Debian for Basically the entire time Debian has existed Now that is a political stance that they chose to Follow for many years and over the course of the last two years They've actually decided to reverse that so now if you come to this page here after pressing that download button You can see a link to the Debian iso for the net install And that does now include an option for you to install the non-free firmware somewhere along the line during installation So the upgrade to their linking system is Good Just off the bat if you want to find just a standard Debian installer That will also allow you to install in the vast majority of pcs, which is Something that I think everybody wants to do because most people need those proprietary Non-free drivers and such in order to run their computers You can find that link very easily right here on the first page You get to after clicking the download button But because i'm a negative Nancy as they call me I guess I have to point out some things that are Not so great about this one page right here And then we'll move on to some other criticisms that I have Or that are still relevant from the last time I talked about this first We have this gigantic block of important right here And this is to verify your download with a checksum Now first of all the vast majority of people who download an iso I'm just making a blanket general statement here, but and it might maybe wrong I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that the vast majority people when they download an iso do not check their checksum in fact In the comment section below Let me know if you actually check the checksums check sums of the isos that you download I would bet that you're probably in the minority. I'm just guessing I mean everybody should do that, but I bet you that they don't they highlight that Right here on this page what that causes though is that everyone's eyes on this page Are immediately drawn to that highlighted section. They're not drawn to this Link up here where you actually need to click in order to get to the iso Okay, so that's the first thing that I would criticize here Okay, when I come to this page, I don't see that up there immediately I see this and then because I'm reading top to bottom I start here and go down Now I get past I get to the other installers and we'll talk about this in a minute But this is the iso that they want you to download and they have conveniently put it above something that draws your eyes away from it Also on this page. I don't know if you've noticed, but it says thank you for downloading debian Now when you see that what do you think about? Well, you think that the download has already started I mean if you've already if you're thanking me for something I assume that you've already done that thing for me. That's what I assume obviously When the save as dialogue doesn't pop up you are going to realize that the download has not indeed started but The phrasing of that is a little weird because it just makes me assume that the download is going to start automatically When in fact you still have to click on this link here So those are my two criticisms on this page and honestly, I don't care about them all that much it's so much better to have one iso that I know I can get an actually install on my computer and Have it work with all the hardware that I have the fact that that iso is now Basically front and center with some tweaks. It could be better, but it's basically front and center that makes me happy However, and of course, you knew that there was a however I will say that they do still make it quite interesting to find other isos So I will before I get into that I will say this it is better than it was before I mean Astronomically better than it was before because before if you wanted to find The live installer isos You'd have two options. You'd have the ones that came with no non-free software You'd also also find the live isos of ones that came with non-free software And those were buried somewhere on their website If you knew the special dance and handshake in the password You probably could find them by navigating through some special sauce on their website But only if you knew what you're doing most people probably would be able to find them through google Which is the way that I always found them nowadays. It's not as hard I will say that so other installers here and they've done a good job of making this the Second biggest text on the on the page Which is good And then you click here and then you get a list of other places to find isos, which is good So so far we're two clicks into the website not a big deal Usually though when I want to get to an iso I wanted to have Just two clicks, you know, just the download button and then maybe one other Once you get past that it becomes a little bit more tedious right now I understand that it's not that big a deal. Just it feels like a design flaw And my problem with this page here Is that the one that you're probably wanting is not front and center on the page So if that first iso wasn't going to do you You probably don't need another link to it right here. I'm assuming that you probably don't need that also Interestingly, they made the download link for the iso which we saw on the other page much bigger on this page than it was on the other page So that's weird, right? Also, if you're looking for another iso You may be looking for a minimal iso So that is right in front center They also have one that's kind of larger and has other Stuff in it a whole bunch of Packages and stuff making it easier to install my machines without an internet connection and stuff like that So they have that right here. Those are both good to have front and center the cloud image Doesn't do a very good job of explaining what a cloud image actually is but we'll bypass that I'm assuming it's probably from what I can see it's used to be built on servers and things like that for clouds Why that right there is front and center when the one that you probably want is this one here that is actually below the fold This one here try to be in live before installing That's the one that you probably want But that's like I said, you have to scroll down in order to get to there Now one of the things you guys have to realize when I'm talking about all of this stuff is that I have a very dim view of human nature to me everyone is a lazy lazy person and Most people don't have the attention span to do anything like scrolling down One time people just don't really do that There's a reason why when you visit a website that has a whole bunch of ads on it Usually the most ads you are found in a place where They're seen immediately upon page load, right? The people who place those ads want the most people to see them Therefore they put them so they don't have an impediment to people seeing them So if you had to scroll down to the ad, you know It's probably not going to be seen as much as one that you don't have to scroll on right Same thing here people may not want to scroll down, right now to me obviously that's not a it's not a huge deal But it's still a thing that I would just switch these This here and that there most people who regular normies are going to come here and not want the cloud images They're going to want the live installer and when you click on this then we get into the problems. Okay? This is just overall Not a fantastic design for a website What it does here is it shows the age of debian So Debian has been around for 30 years and we're all happy that it's still here It's the basis for many distributions including a boon to including linux mint Anything based on a boon to obviously It's a very well known well used distribution and it's old Though so it has some very old style design Inclinations I should say so explains everything you need to know about the live install images But where are all those damn things right? Well, you scroll down and then you have to know like this is you guys gotta remember when I talk about this stuff I'm also talking about from a perspective of a new Linux user Like if you're a new user and you hear these wonderful things about debian being the most stable distribution You could possibly use I mean they literally call stable right in the release name, right? So you hear about all this stuff and then they make it a little bit too difficult to find the ISO that you want so you have to know what amd64 actually means You have to know what the difference is in all of these things and It's not great for new users. Also. We're like four clicks into it now So you have to be interested enough to get this far which most people are not so once you click on this thing You get another page of text You get another another page text We're going to we're going to learn how to verify or download which again We've already discussed that most people don't do Even if they should they don't do it and then they you have to scroll all the way down And then you're finally going to get to the isos and when you do get to the isos look at the list of isos that they have So you have the iso itself You have the contents file you have a log file for each desktop environment that they have also a package list file And then another log file Okay, so they have five files for every Desktop environment that they offer So you have to know as a new user what you actually are supposed to click on in order to get these things now That's not a huge impediment if you if you are going to use linux You should be at least knowledgeable enough to know what an iso is But the fact that they have this it just makes it look like a convoluted mess to me Just have links to each of the desktop environments that you're going to have and just download the iso I don't need this extra stuff. It doesn't do us any good to have here. This is a treat. This is a file tree This is what that is. It's a file tree and It looks fine for developers and for linux nerds, but for anyone else who is searching through this stuff It's not that great. It's not great design Now I will say that this is about three or four or five clicks better than it used to be Like I said before this is better than it used to be But it still feels like they're burying These isos which makes it feel like they don't want you to use them And if that's the case why they create them? That's my that's my overarching question Is if you're going to bury the isos That most people probably should use like if you haven't tried the regular debian installer these days It's not hard, but it's definitely not the most user friendly installer out there It's definitely not going to be as user friendly as calamaris, which is what those live isos actually offer So my question is this why do they bury the ones that are the easiest the furthest away from the front page? It doesn't make sense to me unless of course We're automatically assuming then that debian is not for new users So if that's the conclusion that we're all going to come to that's fine Okay, we can say that and if that's true It's 100 fine because not everything has to be for new users We have gentu for a reason gentu is definitely not for new users We have linux from scratch definitely not for even advanced users, right? Most people are not going to use linux from scratch most people are not going to use Gentu or any of even any of its derivatives even if they are they are easier to install, right? That's just that's fine Not everything has to be for new users, but debian is different from those I would argue debian is a very popular linux distribution It's a distribution that new linux users are going to hear about They're going to be able to hear about it from people who use ubuntu because they're going to hear that ubuntu is based on debian They're going to hear about it from every blog post out there touting the five most stable linux distributions out there It's going to be something that people are going to hear about And when they go to look for debian and look for the iso, they'll either end up with the regular iso Which is fine But also not the most user friendly or they're going to have to go spelunking into a file tree Trying to figure out which file that they actually need to download the iso mess on debian Is improved from what it was before it's definitely better than it was but it's still not great And that is just probably the most disappointing part about debian Now like I said, I'm working on a long term review, but I will provide some spoilers here debian is a really good distribution It is Fantastically stable if you're gonna if you want a stable distribution you want something that you don't care about the Brand new software features that you're going to get in kde or whatever software You just want something that works and it's always going to work and you don't have to update it every three or four days debian is Fantastic the biggest disappointment. I constantly have With debian is the iso situation and like I said, it's gotten better, but it's still not great So that's it for this video. If you have thoughts on this, you can leave those in the comment section below I don't know why I did that when I was talking about the comment section But you can tell what I'm gonna say next if you haven't already leave a thumbs up. It really does help the channel I really appreciate it You can follow me on mastodon or odyssey those links will be in the video description You can support me on patreon at patreon.com slash the linux cast links for kofi and youtube And paypal will be in the video description as well Thanks to everybody who does support me on patreon and youtube you guys are all absolutely amazing Without you the challenges would not be anywhere near where it is right now So thank you so very very very very very much for your support. I truly do appreciate it. You guys are awesome Thank you so much. Thanks everybody for watching. 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