So Republican governors are beginning to speak up following the backlash to news that Roe versus Wade's death is imminent And they're trying to justify their state's Extremist anti-choice laws now It's not enough that they banned abortion in their states because that would be barbaric in and of itself But their laws on abortion are so restrictive that they don't even have exceptions for rape or sexual assault So Asa Hutchinson the governor of Arkansas is going to go on national TV and explain how his heart goes out to the victims of rape and incest, but unfortunately, you know, he signed that bill into law and now You can't get an abortion in the state of Arkansas if you were raped or You're the victim of incest and even if you know that wasn't the case You still should be able to have control over your own bodily autonomy But just look at how extreme and barbaric their way of thinking is take a look What would you say to those women who seek an abortion who don't have the money to travel? Who don't have the money to raise a child? What would you say to them? Well, first of all again, that's where your heart goes out to them I've had to deal with those very difficult circumstances of rape and incest as governor and It's difficult and so you have to understand that you have to provide services And I believe that we want to increase the services for maternal health to increase the Services for adoption services as well And so we want to invest in those areas that will help those women with very difficult Circumstances of the pregnancy but secondly, I think to your point the rape and incest Exceptions will continue to be a part of the debate Right now we do not have rape and incest as exceptions under the Arkansas trigger law But there's I think that will be a part of the debate would you like to see those exceptions those exceptions are important Yes, I expressed whenever I signed the law that I would prefer the rape and incest Exceptions to be in there and even though we have the trigger law I expect those exceptions to be a significant part of the debate in the future Even though we're gonna immediately go to restrict abortions In the exceptions with the exception of the life of the mother in danger He really wishes that the exceptions for rape and incest were in the bill that he chose to sign into law But they're not so, you know, I'm sure that the women who were raped who can't get abortions in Arkansas Will take comfort in knowing that your heart goes out to them What we're listening to here is a sociopath that individual is a sociopath as governor He chose to sign that bill into law and now he's saying well the way that we're dealing with it is We're basically like trying to help with adoption somehow We're gonna force every single victim of rape and incest to carry that fetus to term But I mean my heart goes out to you hope that means something I mean it's almost as idiotic as when the governor of Texas Greg Abbott said, you know in response to a question about rape or incest Oh, we're just gonna get rid of rape in the state of Texas We're gonna make sure that these rapists fear for their lives or something to that effect like I'm paraphrasing But they're so immature so unrealistic so idiotic and barbaric in their way of thinking that we should be embarrassed That politicians like this are in prominent positions of power in their states now I want to go to Mississippi where Governor Tate Reeves who looks like a younger version of Mitch McConnell and has all the same evil policies as him is going to explain His states abortion ban, which does not include Exceptions for incest he's gonna explain why you know, this is good apparently take a look So the snapback law into that that was passed in 2007 has no Exception for incest so assuming that the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade the state of Mississippi Will force girls and women who are the victims of incest to carry those chaiots to term Can you explain why that is going to be your law? Well, that's gonna be the law because in 2007 the Mississippi legislature passed it I will tell you Jake and this sort of speaks to how far the Democrats in Washington have come on this issue But in 2007 when the trigger law was put in place We had a democrat speaker of the house and we had a democrat chairman of the public health committee in the Mississippi house Yeah, but why are you going to take their piece of legislation? Why is it acceptable in your state to force girls who are victims of incest to carry those child children to term? Well as you know Jake over 92% of all abortions in America are elective procedures When you look at the number of of those that actually are involved incest It's less than 1% and if we need to have that conversation in the future about potential Exceptions in the trigger law we can certainly do that But the reality is that again that affects less than 1% of all abortions in America with an annual basis Okay, but that is going to be the law of Mississippi. Let me ask you What about a fetus that has serious or fatal abnormalities that will not allow that fetus To live outside the womb is the state of Mississippi going to force those girls and women who have This tragedy inside them to carry the child to term. Are you going to force them to do that? Well, Jake, I'll tell you I think that that these questions Illustrate exactly what we've been talking about and that is you're dealing in in Examples that are rare and are very small percentage of the overall abortions and the reason for that is because when you talk to Americans regardless of what the what the polling says with respect to overturning Roe v. Wade the vast majority of Americans Recognize that the abortion laws in America right now. That is what are extreme America's abortion laws are Extreme relative to the rest of the Western world Yeah, you know that even if the court did not overturn Roe Jake even if the court did not overturn Roe even if they just decided to uphold Mississippi's 15 week ban That 39 out of 42 countries in Europe would still have more restrictive abortion laws vast majority of Americans support Restrictions that are reasonable on abortions and the overturning of Roe is simply going to return Those decision-making processes to the state's right Legislatures and I'm asking you about this the law in your state and the exceptions that the law does not offer To Mississippi women and girls who are victims of incest who have Fetuses that have fatal or very serious abnormalities Which is not really all that rare to be honest I mean I know plenty of women that that has happened to and they had to you know They wanted to have a healthy child, but they weren't able to and your law would force them to carry it the child to term Notice how he couldn't justify it. He had to change the conversation. Do what about ism? Oh It's actually the Democrats were extreme.    They're bad people, but you're the governor of this state So there are no exceptions for victims of incest justify it try to do that I dare you and he can't so he didn't so he talked about how um, you know the restrictions That Americans support on abortion like this is this is very common and that's not wrong Americans do support restrictions on abortion, but they supported the restrictions imposed in Roe v. Wade Nobody is saying hey, you know what if a woman changes her mind when she's eight and a half months pregnant She should be able to abort that baby. Nobody is arguing for that. Nobody's arguing for that now They'd respond by saying well.  Okay, so they're so extreme Against the abortions in states like Louisiana. They want to charge women with homicide So what are these governors doing to actually? Limit the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Are they expanding access to contraception? So in the state of mississippi if he's really that extreme when it comes to abortion What he could do is allow free contraception to all mississippi residents. So is he going to do that? Well, no because uh lawmakers in mississippi want to ban Contraception Now he's going he's going to say oh That's not on the agenda right now But understand that the one thing that will prevent unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortion in the first place That's also going to be a target of the gop. He does not rule it out Listen very carefully to what he says here when asked But just to be clear the state of mississippi you're not going to then target Uh iud or plan b Which are methods of birth control that might not allow a fertilized egg to be implanted and this is not a theoretical Construct this is not a you know the state of louisiana, which I recognize is a neighboring state not your state I mean they're talking about uh, not only criminally charging Uh girls and women who get abortions as you know as as being Committing homicide, but they're also talking about defining the moment Uh of conception as fertilization, which would theoretically if this were to become the law of louisiana and it is not yet Uh mean that murder if you use an iud you are committing murder theoretically So it's it's not i'm not making this up This is these are the conversations going on in legislatures in your in your area But so just to be clear you have no intention of seeking to ban iud's or plan b That that is not what we're focused on at this time. We're we're focused on Uh looking at see what the court allows for The the bill that is before the court is a 15 week ban We we believe that that the overturning of roe is the correct decision by the court And and so in mississippi, we don't we don't have laws on the books that would lead to Arresting individuals or anything along those lines. Well, how reasonable You know, they're not going to charge women with murder They're just going to make sure that victims of rape and incest are forced To carry the fetus of their abuser to term it. What do you even say now? He said, um, you know that they're not looking at banning contraception At this time at this time, but in a month or two from now It's on the table. They're already talking about this. They want to do it now He can't necessarily do that right now because it's Unconstitutional, but what we're going to likely see is the same thing that we saw in the lead-up to rose demise We're going to see one state propose some sort of a ban On contraception in an effort to basically go the supreme court Into revisiting griswold v. Connecticut and then this far-right extremist supreme court will indeed overturn that Thus paving the way for these states to not just ban abortion, but ban the one thing That prevents abortion contraception So what we're listening to here these interviews that we watched. These are from sociopathic barbarians They are barbarians.  Don't you worry. They care about life.  They're forcing women to go back to coat hanger Abortions and back alleys, but they're very pro-life. They care about life. They're literally just anti woman and they are anti choice Extremists these are theocrats who want to impose their minoritarian views on everyone in society It doesn't matter what the state is No state has more than 30 percent of support for overturning Roe v. Way But they are going to impose their theocratic fascistic beliefs on everyone And they will continue to do this and push the envelope even further until americans stand up once a fraud and say enough is enough


Welcome, everyone. This is Jenkins governance meeting. It's the 11th of July, 2022. Thanks for being here. So agenda items that I have on the list. Oh, thank you, Daniel. I've got any news, action items, a trademark request that Daniel's asked some clarifying questions on the developer list and it will help me learn more about how to do that correctly. So guidance on responding to request to the board. This is one where I wanted to get guidance from Oleg on. I'm relatively inexperienced on the board and I need some coaching on which things should I answer and how, and then we had a request related to the embeddable build status plugin, and the fact that it bundles a proprietary component. Another question, a question raised by Gavin separately to me was, could we consider moving this meeting one hour earlier on the same day, it would be a little better for him. Any other final forums and community topics, any other topics that others need to add to the agenda. Not from me. Great. Okay. All right, so in terms of, I guess news items. LTS to 346.2 releases next week. No, no, is it this week, wait a sec. Now I've got a double check. It's always the week of the meeting. Yes, it's releases this week so it releases on Wednesday, which means I've got to get that change log approved and merged. Okay, so change log is ready. It's a relatively straightforward release the one change that got an upgrade guide note is install plugins .sh has been removed. This is an old script that was deprecated 18 months ago in the Docker containers replaced by the plugin installation manager tool a Java program that actually does a really good job of resolving dependencies, warning about security, etc. So, so just be aware that changes coming. Brace for impact. That's right. Exactly. Any other news from others. Okay, then action items. I can use. So for whoever uses Jinx, fellow runner, I'm dropping good support in the next release. So we discussed it as a part of the Google summer of code project also communicated it to potential users. Mark, please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my, to the best of my knowledge club is doesn't want to depend on Jinx fellow runner. That's correct as far as I know so like did I get it correct that you're dropping Java eight support. Good. Okay, super that aligns with, with weekly has dropped Java eight support already. Just for the last week. I mean, Jinx fellow runner is still in beta. So I can use Liberty for taking weekly releases. Great. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks to everyone who was working on Java 17 support. I'm not ready to introduce Java 17 support because reflection. But I'm getting there. No, it's not looking very good. Sorry, Java 17 support Jenkins core is looking very good. Jenkins fellow runner well it's small stuff all built about reflection. So probably migrating to Java 17 would require some purchase in the Jenkins core also in JD. So I'm not sure what it gets shipped. Great. Well, thank you for the note and thanks for moving it from from Java eight to Java 11. We like that. I like that story a bunch I think it's a good story for everyone to know that the project is moving off of eight and Java 17 was defaulting ranks fellow runner for quite a while. Yeah, there are obvious complications there, but well hopefully Jinx fellow runner isn't designed for some plugins like made them a plugin so let's say the scope of the changes because in a question Jenkins. Great. Excellent. Any other news items. Okay next topic then action items and here I have the sad statement is saying that I have all the action items and I've made progress on none of them. I will try to make some progress in the future on at least one or two of these. Gavin in particular, we very much want to move the docs mailing list and the platform sick mailing list to community Jenkins.io. I just haven't started on it yet. So let's look into importing. Essentially, essentially they said if we want to import exporting from Google groups is really really easy. It's just Google takeout and you're done importing it since we don't have access to the actual physical install. You can't run in the import scripts. So essentially what we'd have to do is we only mode the forms. Download the that they can give us a dump of the database, we import it we import the re mark the mailbox file, and then give it back to them, and then I'm read only the forms. It's not to me worth it. The other option is to try to write a script uses the API. I don't know how much time or effort is worth putting into this so it's not as easy to the thought it was. Yeah, and for me, I think, leaving the switching Google groups to read only and leaving that be the place people read it seems safe. I have reasonable hope that they won't kill Google groups and take it away that they just it just isn't evolving nearly as rapidly user interface wise is community Jenkins that IO does. You have big faith in Google. Okay. Yes, quote, that there's a quote of a quote, you're right. There is not that many threads, we would like to move. I mean, if we even if you wanted to move. It doesn't make sense to move all the threads maybe some of important ones. And particularly on the docs mailing list that docs and platform of both relatively low volume user user lists and dev lists those are high volume higher volume lists, but those two platform and docs pretty simple pretty small I'm not worried terribly great. I would have Internet archives. I mean, there's so many services that dump these many increased and representing the searches. I don't particularly care to be honest. Great. Yep. Excellent. Anything else on action items. So one about Linux Foundation transfers. Did you get any progress there. Transfers ownership or payment for the for the top of the action items list. Oh, oh, got it. So no, I did not. Alyssa has started a discussion with them but I haven't I haven't done my part of it. So, for information my understanding that there was a change in the Linux Foundation stuffing. Oh, okay waiting for FATI from the CDF to return the visa the name of our new contact. Because we've had the same problems in the CNCF and in the CDF. So we are creating some other crowdfunding entities at the moment. Once I get information I will forward it to the governing. Great. Thank you. But yes, I believe that our money is still there. And as usually reminder, that is open question how we spend this money. Right and that's that's I think still a fair money is still there. I mean we've also got funds also at other locations like what is it the SPI. Yeah for SPI. So, if you want to have more people on the action items list you can at me for SPI. Okay. All right great. Actually depends on the same person. The same person is expected to issue invoice to the SPI which will be used for the transfer. Okay, great. Yeah, I had seen SPI based discussions where it was a possible that Kosuke may ask for reimbursement for some of his Jenkins related expenses that SPI could just fun to him and I'm, I'm open to all sorts of things like that. So for me the question is what we could move from KK to the CDF, because now what's going on. We are restarting the continuous delivery foundation. So I'm not sure how much is visible from the Jenkins project right now, but with the new executive director is the new leader of the outreach committee. Well, I'm a manager, hopefully coming soon. There are some activities going on. And what they are also elections for the treasurer role. So, formally in the CDF charter, they should be person responsible for all money stuff. But there has never been so they're trying to elect someone. No idea. Definitely it's not going to be me. Yeah. And I'm also advocating to have some one to the project infrastructure chapter chapter. So currently there is no project infrastructure community chair or whatever in the CDF, but I think it's something we need to introduce there. All right. Sorry for sick way into another topic. Well, and do we need to put a separate topic in terms of CDF transition or is that something you want to wait till thought he gets back on from vacation. You can add it is a good topic something like this from the CDF. Okay, great. Because we have been communicating Jenkins updates to the CDF. But I guess I could do better job communicating it in the opposite direction to. Topic added. Yep. So by the way, the term of project representatives was extended until 2023. So I will be on the to see for another year. I cannot say the same for the governing board, because my governing board seat is related to the to see chair status. And I'm not sure I will participate in elections in August. Okay. And I guess none of the so they will you contribute the representative selected. But I guess we don't have contributed presented from Jenkins on the board. Yeah, the ones that I have nominated, we're not elected so yeah, as far as I know we don't have a Jenkins representative right now on in that area. Well, to some extent it's mean but it's just provisionally and well, well, I'm my TBC chair. And it's not like I don't want, I don't want to continue it right now. Anything else on action items. So we need to have an action and forgetting full access to zoom account again, because right now, only existing computers can access it, because we get the emails, the two factor email sent to email we don't have access to. So and I thought that I was getting that email when I, but I think, I think you've got a good point let's put it here as you want me to take this one on Gavin do you want to take it what do you what would you recommend. I don't know just we just need to do it. I think we'll do it off of zoom. Honestly, that would be my preference I don't like sharing account. So, for that, we can create multiple charters on the CD of baby. Oh, one problem with it. So, I got an update from Michelle that they will be soon moving to the enterprise account. So the current limitations won't apply. And it means so that on baby will be able to do almost everything including streaming to YouTube. So, yeah, Michelle said he is September. But how do you want. I thought we weren't moving the baby I thought that was canceled. No, no, it's for webinars, definitely we cannot move to baby, because you cannot easily host webinars on baby. I tried to and I failed to use the CD of baby. Sorry, I'm, I'm having trouble with your audio. You're saying we can't move to bevy or we are moving to bevy. So, we can cannot move to bevy for webinars. Okay, moment, because we like features. But for example, for special interest group meetings. Okay, you can put the host them on baby at the moment. And if needed, we can create multiple chapters for Jenkins so that chapters do not overlap with each other. Okay, so, okay. So, chapters in this case could be things like a special interest group. Well, chapters are basically meet up groups. Yes. So you can have, well, similar to the continue. Well, similar to see if each chapter there, each working group, etc. has their own chapter on baby. And this is what we can do for Jenkins as well. We have already checked it with Roxanne and Michelle, so they are fine with that. Because we just have one experimental chapter at the moment. And later we can introduce multiple ones. So I'll add a correct link to baby. But yes, if someone wants to try it for particular chapter, we can get it configured. We talked to FAT that we would create, we would grant access to some people not employed by the Linux Foundation. It's working progress, but the FAT is very open about that. Unfortunately, the Linux Foundation is not very open. So let's see where it goes. But yeah, the ultimate direction declared by FAT that we make all these resources as open as possible. Great. Okay, so, so, so we would be, we, oh, like just to be sure I can restate what you were saying. Sometime later this year or early next year, we'll be able to, instead of doing this meeting in Zoom, we'll be able to do it in Betty. Because it's like a SIG meeting, those, but we may never. Meeting if you want. So right now for these small project meetings, nothing blocks us from moving to Betty. There are some legitimate concerns about user experience. So for example, you have to repeat to every meeting to join. But otherwise, it's operational issues. Okay, all right. So, so is this something I should connect with because there are some meetings where I could do some test drives that are pretty low risk. The doc SIG where there are only three or four of us who attend. Do I contact Michelle for to get that started or just join the risk community groups channel on the CDF Slack. Okay. You can ask that. All right, thank you. So yeah, I'm waiting for permissions on for myself. Okay, but yeah, fatigued permissions already. So he can help us. Yeah, right now it's summer vacation period so everything is a bit slow in Europe. Right. All right. Anything else on action items. I was thinking about how we can spend money. I mean, I talked to Mark about it and I still want to write up a proposal, but I do think we should hire a tech writer to come in and clean up and move. Remove some of the blue ocean references that's littered all over the place as it's starting to become a very bad experience for end users. But I want to write it all right up a proposal some point for that. So outreach. We've, we've had good results without reaching in the one project we ran and, and so as a possible target. And I've got a contact there if you'd like it on a total on the toy. She and I are co speakers at DevOps world actually. Great. Thanks Gavin. I've actually, I've started that with Kevin Martens. So Kevin Martens is a writer who's, who's helping and is employed by cloudbies and he and I are planning that I'm not sure that we'll move as fast as what Gavin would like to do. But yeah, Kevin and I are talking about it. All the time we ripped out some of the content, including the quick start guide. But I agree was given that the portion is still all over the place. And I'm not sure whether you want to keep it by default in recommendations anywhere right now. Yeah, and that, that for me is a conversation we should host in the, in, in other channels I'm not sure governance is the place because I have, I have a pretty strong personal opinion I like it a lot for the pipeline visualization I know Gavin has the other, other feeling he would just not be there for anything. And I understand that. No public visualization is great there. The problem is whether you want to bring in the entire ocean, taking performance concerns, taking potential security concerns, taking data code base and make a bet on it. Yeah, that's why I want to write up a post about it before I make any movements. Yeah, I think it's, it's great that we have the have the discussion and Gavin I think it has has really good reasons really good rationales for his ideas. Let's, let's leave the action I'm there Gavin you're okay with how I phrased it there. Yeah, speaking of that, how is teams plugin doing. I mean, pipeline viewer plugin which was supposed to replace blows him. He's lost track of it. Yeah, so I talked to Tim at the contributor summit in June. He's not doing any further advancing of it he's not blocking anyone else from doing it, but right now he's focused on other things. To the understandable. Yeah. Anything else on action items. All right, next topic was a trademark usage request. I'm just going to open up the message from the to the governance board so that everybody can see the, the text this was what was the question was raised by Nakazato Takayoshi of luminous and in the English text it says, hey they're they're speaking at a conference a Microsoft sponsored session of a conference that like to use the Jenkins logo in the presentation materials now as far as I see from their usage in the materials it's it's not actually something that should require a branding, or a trademark usage authorization, because they're they're not doing anything that would confuse the Jenkins brand. I wanted to double check is, is my interpretation correct or is there something more I need to be. We need to be considering there on this request. First of all the interpretation is completely correct for this request, there should be no approval. And secondly, the Jenkins community doesn't longer make approvals for the trademark usage. We transfer to the trademark. I believe for the guidelines have been updated so that people should comply with Linux Foundation trademark usage guidelines. So I actually wonder from where this request actually came. Yeah, and I suspect it's just that they probably did not bother to read the they probably did not read the material here. Right. So, the phrase here if you're still in doubt contact the board, but in this case, they don't match any of the other conditions right in this they are not. They're not using the mark in a way as part of their own trademark or brand identifier they're just not. There is a section there on trademark attribution, if you scroll down a bit. And that's only the part I would say to them is, you could throw in a Jenkins is registered trademark. I don't personally care, but they could do that. Ah, good point. All right, and that that is a valid point that that because they're, they're placing the trademark there, noting that it should be attributed correctly is a good thing. Does anyone attribute correctly things in other presentations. No, not really not that I've seen. I certainly don't sometimes in the notes, but not usually on the slides themselves. Yeah. So I think that, well, for this particular case. Yeah, let's go ahead and bother. Maybe it's something we need to think about how to work it better. Right. Okay, good. So, can reply to the requester. Can the trademark reply to request that no approval is needed. Encouraged to use to use current use attribution for the guidelines. I'm going to use this. Okay, thank you. Okay so anything else on the trademark usage guidelines topic. And then was I need some guidance on responding to general requests to the board. So the Google group is intentionally not public and that's that's intentional because if there are conflicts or things that need to be handled privately by the board, it should be private. So that's expected. However, I wasn't sure if I reply to the group. Does it go back to the submitter or no it's just to those who are already subscribers to the group. It only replies to the ones that you specify so by default, I believe the reply to is the submitter. But it, if you apply to just a group it won't go to the user submitted it. Ah, okay. And that's the same with every other mailing list. The difference. The only thing that depends on the configuration of the specific mailing list is what happens when you press reply. Some lists. Would you have replied to the original sender, while other lists will have your reply to the list. And this is just a default but you're what you're sending us up to you. Yeah. I think in this case, the reply is to the group. Okay, and just check your two address all the time. In general rule anyways right. Yes, so one thing to be careful is about web interface because a few days from the web interface responding to the sender is not really. Okay, you just said something very important because I usually reply through the web interface. And so what I should typically is rather reply through my email client. Okay, thank you. You see the email of the sender. So when you click reply you can just add it to this email to the CC list. And, but if you respond in the web client, it's somehow possible, but yeah, I felt multiple times. Okay, good. And there is one additional complication there, and that is people who configured their domain to have SPF. Because the problem is if someone sends an email to the mailing list, the mailing list resends the same email to all of the mailing list members. And with a domain doing email validation. That would fail because obviously Google is not whatever your web mail provider is, if you send an email to a list. And so Google groups will rewrite the sender to say name via Jenkins board, and the sender email address will actually be the board email address. And you need to look into the at the original email headers to find out who actually sent the email. So that might be an additional complication. So it, I need to be aware of that and it sounds like if I use my email client, I'm most likely to be okay, I just have to then be attentive to who's actually on the address line. Yeah, if you reply all you're good. All right, thank you. Okay, so you're not, that's that's the whole point. Because if someone Google will not forward the email from someone who has configured SPF on their domain. Okay, so if a sender that hasn't been my experience using the Gmail client if you use reply all you get the actual domain not there, not there. Okay, if if you're if you're using Gmail for your own email. Okay, I don't know how that works. I don't for a bunch of stuff that I'm a member of in Google groups and it's a mess. I see. Okay. All right, thank you. Okay, so. Thanks Daniel. The next topic was how to handle requests like the net app compliance survey. And I think there the answer was reply. Oh, like you had said you would, you'd send a reply to them. I made the mistake when they sent the second request I sent another reply but I didn't make it visible to the board at all. And so is it best to reply in a way that board members can see. I think so and I believe I also didn't see see the board. No. Okay, so my response was also not that kind and not officially affiliated with the board. Got it. Well it was better than some tweets but still. Okay. But if I had known that they were also harassing the board I would have mentioned that. Well, and that's I think that's the point right good good point Daniel is that more communication is a good thing. Yeah, excellent. Thank you very much. Okay, so then. Now Daniel noted that hey trademark usage requests in general don't go to the board and I think the answer that Oleg gave earlier is, we shouldn't be processing trademark usage requests at all because we've, we've switched the model to use the Linux foundations for trademark approval guidelines. And so, and that has been updated shouldn't so we should not have not should not need to process those kind of requests. I mean, there is still in the case of doubt contact Jenkins board. Right. Which is legitimate case I guess, though, I don't I'm not exactly sure it has to be private. But the otherwise should be little to no request of such kind. Great. Okay. All right. And I think the answer to my next question how to handle code of conduct violation reports is those are handled privately on the mailing list, because it's only visible to board members the board members can discuss it privately there to decide what action should be taken or not taken. If someone says hey, there's this code of conduct violation that's occurred. There is one exception. Okay, this collision to the board members happens about another board member. Right. But otherwise, yes. Right that makes sense happens regarding another board member. Then it's, then it'll use private channels. Okay, great. Anything else on guiding on responding to guidance on responding to request to the board. Okay, next topic, the embeddable build status plugin. Daniel had reported this actually detected that they're using a proprietary font. And there's been a solution proposed. Here in this issue report. And I think I can open that. Yeah, so, so it looks like it's a relatively straightforward thing. If we want to retain embeddable build status as far as I understand it, the maintainer is not active on this plugin. So if someone else wants to maintain it, they could take this step. If we don't get a maintainer. I guess then the choices are, is it easier to adopt it, or easier to to delist it. I think it's suspended. It's a violation of our guidelines, non open source binary code. I mean, if it's not fixed, it has to be suspended. Yes. Okay, so the choice, the two choices are either corrected corrected and a new version released. I imagine once it's suspended someone will step up to maintain it but I think, you know, to follow the guide we should be suspending it because it is not complying with license agreements or licensing terms or whatever you want to call it. Right. Well, but the impact on the community is quite high. So I would advocate for a fix. I mean, the fix shouldn't be big. So you can make a system just to find a maintainer. So, yeah, sometimes I vote for let it burn approach. But I'm not sure embeddable build status is the right thing, taking the wide adoption and taking the fact, many public facing instances depending on this plugin for pages, etc. I mean, it doesn't remove it from their installs. It just puts the thing that says it's been suspended, just like with the SS a publish over SSH stuff and I think if it's not maintained, we should be suspended. Okay, but can you download it by plug in installation manager. Not from the plugin installation UI but you can download it. Well, I'm in plugin installation manager. So let's say docket images. I just went to the plugin and what happens with whatever infrastructure is called users of Jenkins that depend on this plugin. I think once it's suspended, it's no longer available through that at least I believe that was the case. Daniel, do you recall for sure. If, if we suspend a plugin I thought it was no longer accessible through update center. But it's gone from update center, but we generally do not delete the artifacts and artifacts so if there's some nonsensical feature to pass a URL that might be a workaround for that obviously not something we want to see happen. Personally, I would prefer if someone would step up and fix it, because the plugin is installed on ZI Jenkins IO. And while there are plans to migrate away from it. I mean I spent the time to fix three vulnerabilities in this plugin because of it a few weeks ago, so I would rather this not be a way have been a waste of time. And I think I think I'm interested actually in adopting another one so this is not one that scares me too badly. I think let's look for the. I believe the position is correct that Gavin's noted, we should either correct the issue or suspend it. And let's look what if we give ourselves two weeks. And if we can get a maintainer in the next two weeks. Great, let's get that maintainer online then we'll discuss it again next meeting. I'm on the firm believer that unless something is fixed, it's not fixed. So I'm okay delaying it two weeks but I think we should send out a mail list item right now and say it will be suspended in two weeks and if someone wants to step up and maintain it that's fine, but it will be suspended in two weeks. Objections from others. Good compromise. Okay, so, so is this a let's see the suspend process really is a license thing so it's not a security thing so it doesn't come from the security team. So is it something should come in my voice or somebody else on the board. Okay, I can write something but it'll be Thursdays. God for Friday before I can get to it. Yeah, no and I'm happy to do the writing. I was just trying to figure out which which group is the best voice is it. This seems like it's a board level thing not a security thing. Thanks the board. Okay, good. So I will, I will send that note and we'll we'll go from there. Okay anything else on embeddable build status. Okay next topic updates from CDF. Well, yes, so I talked about the elections. So we have fully established governing board with a lot of people stepping up and also the entire foundation seems to be on the recovery path. It was in just half a year ago. There is still a lot of things to be done, but it evolves in the right direction. So, one of important topics is that period has applied for the CDF membership. So it's distributed back. So I delivered a manager is red hat canonical and if you're pretty proud. I guess you spoke that right, and I pronounced Troy. Yeah, so it's been centralized vacation network. So there will be presentation soon, but it looks like this project is getting closer quite support. There are also some discussions about other projects to join the CDF. So stay tuned, but some things are changing the positive direction. Another thing which is important for the Jenkins community is CD events. So CD events is marching towards version of one that zero, sorry, 0.1 release sometime in autumn. And also we just dedicated the to see budget to support some initiatives in the project and actually also writing documentation, or maybe doing some developer tools for CD events. There are two projects considered right now. Basically, we had a short presentation at a CD con this together with Shruti. But actually what we need to stop the CD events. There was a number of contributors reaching out in the minimum case. So I will try to help this topic to happen. But yeah, the main question is whether somebody is interested to consume CD events, because now we have Adam and his captain. This demo works really well. But yeah, the question is, any other Jenkins adopters would like to adopt CD events to the moment. For example, clouds. Jeremy McMahon of fidelity expressed interest in in the CD event spec and certainly wants to be involved. I think his initial discussion was adopting the initial events plug in work that Shruti had done as part of Google Summer of Code and then considering replace or extend it to you to support the CD event specification. It would be nice, maybe just the place and everything by support of CD event specification. Because to be honest, I don't think it makes much sense to maintain the current format right now. Because it was experimental anyway. But yeah, so I had the initial introductory discussion but yeah, it's to be done. Okay, so what else going on in the CDF. So there is a new chair of the three committee. So it's a lot of rules again from JFrog. So JFrog is basically doing a serious investment uptick in the continuous delivery foundation efforts. Well, it's great. So basically, there is a lot of things going on including the ambassador program updates. I hope every ambassador of the new cohort received the swag. And there will be some more activities happening around it including Kaverya. And another important topic already brought up is project infrastructure. Whatever committee in the CDF, because right now there is no entity that would handle project infrastructure. And what I might be kidding for is having a kind of group that will be led by Linux Foundation employed program manager to actually gets public cloud access sorted. Because it blocks at least four projects in the CDF. I mean they explicitly asked for some public cloud transfers, etc. including Jenkins. So, yeah, I think it's important topic. Once it starts, I guess for them and forever, it would be interesting to participate there. Right now, no idea. Any questions for all that gun CDF updates. Okay, last topic then was meeting time one hour earlier. Gavin noted that it would be a little easier for him if we, we had two slots this slot that we're in right now and the one previous where the one previous was a could do it for one other person I forget who. So, Evelina Oleg in particular. I actually specifically wasn't going to bring this up yet. Oh, sorry, Gavin. I was, I only asked if you knew offhand from your results if it was a feasible option. The thing is, I'm, I'm either going to just miss the next one or I'll, I'll do the next one. I'm starting a new team on the first and I was going to wait to after the first before I made any suggestions on trying to change the time yet again and especially because we've just changed it like six times in the last month. So I'm in the thing of just leaving it for it for this for the next meeting and probably the one after that. Okay. But yeah, this is not ideal time for me earlier later is better for me was a little work. Yeah, I can do earlier I can do later, most of them on days but yeah. Okay. Great. Thank you. Sorry, excuse my bringing it up prematurely there Gavin thanks for your patience. Next topic then forum and community topics Gavin. I don't know who added that one. So this is from Basel. I don't know if he wants to talk about it at all. And I don't have links but the other ones I'm thinking about are there's a call out for DevOps world, I think talks from Alyssa. I don't have the link open right now. As I said earlier, I want to write out there are a number of issues with blue ocean especially with the last update, something with I think Jack's be made some of the doctor images break. It was mostly because it wasn't up the doctor image wasn't updated in the plugin, but it is something that we saw a number of people saying me to me to. Okay. So this is the nature of the doctor images using ref and not actually forcing baked in plugins overwrite what was that what was already there. But that's yeah so there's a couple of threads with that. There's a mailing list in the dev mailing list about GitHub versus jury again. It's not going to end in town soon but it is a topic that's well discussed. And I'm working on prototyping a vendors, a new vendors page for premium support. We might want to have an official policy about. No, maybe there was a discussion about having like libraries from external. You know Daniel and I have had troubles where plugins have incorporated dependencies from GitHub, which are non accessible anonymously you have to sign in and use a GitHub token. So we might want to have an official policy about that sometime like, don't do dependencies from GitHub. What are they called GitHub revos GitHub libraries. They don't packages get a package content. Yeah, I mean related to containers but actually the packages one. Okay, so in this this I'm not sure I understand that one can you help me so that is that if I declare a dependency on a package that's delivered by the GitHub package manager facilities. I'm not going to authenticate in order to get it. Yeah, so the JFrog and Maven central and Artifactory all like the Jenkins central or whatever Jenkins Artifactory, none of those required logins so you anyone can fetch them. But anyone's using GitHub package repose any of the package repose you have to be logged in to be able to download things. And it's basically what JFrog threatened us with because of our bandwidth and storage use, which we've been able to work around so far by by by deleting stuff and the worst offenders in terms of creating unnecessary traffic. So it's just GitHub basically launched with that. And it means CI builds, for example, would need to authenticate with GitHub. I don't know if he didn't discuss it now but there was a thread about it I think we just kind of said don't do it and they're like cool, and they replied to it. Okay. But it is something that should probably have a formal statement. Definition something like that. Thanks. So is that one that we would take up and discuss further in the mailing list to frame a draft of the formal formal policy. I mean Daniel knows more but I think it's happened twice in the last two years so I don't really. Ah, so not not higher agency. Yeah. All right, great. Any other forums or community topics Gavin. Nothing on my end. All right, nothing from me any others who need to put items on the agenda for discussion here. Almost out of time anyway. Thanks for your thanks for your contribution everyone recording will be posted I hope within the next 24 hours. Thanks again.


Welcome. This lecture is about creating random variables for use in simulation studies. The method we use you already know of as Monte Carlo sampling. As you know in simulation we have to have a way to generate values from a particular random variable distribution and the way we do that is with Monte Carlo sampling. This numerical technique goes back pretty far. The name Monte Carlo is the code name applied to a piece of the Manhattan project that was top secret and involved these techniques. In fact, the increasing popularity of Monte Carlo methods is what spurred the stimulus for the development of pseudo random numbers and pseudo random number generators that we talked about in the last lecture. Because there was so much in terms of using Monte Carlo sampling it totally exploded and using real random numbers from on a magnetic tape or entered in some way into the program that was used to generate the sampling methods just wasn't going to cut it anymore. It ended up being too inefficient and so it was actually the popularity of Monte Carlo sampling that caused all the work that's been going on in pseudo random number generators. We know that the word simulation is sometimes used interchangeably with Monte Carlo sampling, but in this course and in particular in this lecture I want to maintain the distinction between simulation and Monte Carlo methods. Simulation is experimenting with a model of version of reality and Monte Carlo methods are particular branch of mathematics and it's a mathematical technique used to solve mathematical or statistical problems. And specifically it's a numerical technique and algorithmic technique. And when you, the term Monte Carlo simulation actually is a distribution sampling. It uses repeated sampling from the distribution of interest to determine properties of some phenomenon. Well, probably because we're going to be summing or getting an average getting parameters, getting estimates of the distribution. And as we know, simulation is a broader technique and especially discrete event simulation, which is what we're studying in this course involves a time element. And as definitely distinguished from Monte Carlo sampling, which is a moment in time. It's a cross section, but a moment in time that doesn't move over time. It's a distribution that's being sampled from repeatedly, but the distribution doesn't change. Sometimes the term Monte Carlo is used in a sense of employing randomness or probabilistic activity in order to solve problems that might be deterministic in principle. Sometimes we might know the distribution and therefore we can sample from it, but if we want to solve for the mean, the parameter of the distribution, it may not be possible or it may not be easy to do it using expected value like we would when we can do it. So if the mean is intractable, it's very easy to get an estimate of the mean by many, many, many repetitions of sampling from the distribution of interest and then summing them up and dividing by the number in the sample, just like you do it in any field test. We could call it a probabilistic and numerical approach to solving something that should be solvable analytically. And actually, one of the earliest uses of Monte Carlo methods was to empirically get the approximate value of pi. And of course, today, starting back from the advent of large computers, Monte Carlo methods have been tied to computer programs, unlike the historical Monte Carlo methods in the 1700s, let's say, or the 1800s. These are some examples that are trying to show you a distinction between simulation and Monte Carlo methods and then Monte Carlo simulation, where simulation is said to be drawing one pseudo random uniform variate on zero one to simulate the tossing of a coin, one coin. If the value that you get is obviously it's a value between zero and one, if you get a value less than or equal to point five, let's say the coin is heads, the value is greater than point five, let's say it's tails. This is definitely a simulation and we've done things like this in class, but it's not a Monte Carlo simulation. Now, Monte Carlo method might be an example of that might be let's take a whole box of coins, pour them out and then figure out the ratio of heads versus tails. And that might be a Monte Carlo method of determining what happens in repeated coin tosses, but it's not a simulation, it's repeated sampling. A Monte Carlo simulation, perhaps, drawing a large number of pseudo random variables from the interval from uniform zero one, assigning values less than or equal to point five as heads, greater than point five as tails, and it's like repeatedly tossing the coin. Personally, as you know, I wouldn't call it a Monte Carlo simulation, but rather Monte Carlo sampling and we use it in simulation all the time, but I got this from Wikiwans and I wanted to be true to the source. So what are Monte Carlo methods? These are techniques that we can use to generate data. We, in order to do this, what do we need? We need a random number generator, which we know we can get. We need the cumulative probability distribution for the distribution that we're interested in sampling from. It works with the cumulative probability distribution. We'll see how in a minute. We always assume that we have a steady reliable source of uniform zero one random numbers. So we assume we can get a string of zero of random numbers between zero and one. And there are various ways we can get them. Of course, we're more than likely nowadays to get it from a program that generates pseudo random numbers, but we could be using a table of random digits. We could be using any probabilistic device like a roulette wheel, maybe even a deck of cards. Illustrate Monte Carlo methods. We're going to use the inverse transform technique. It's easy to understand, easy to demonstrate. It may not be the best technique around, especially in terms of efficiency, but it's definitely works and it's easy to understand and easy to explain. First, you need the cumulative probability distribution function, like the graph that you see on the slide in front of you. You use your random number generator to get a random number between zero and one.  Use a random number generator and a uniform, apply a uniform zero one distribution. And you can see the blue lines on that graph. Well, a random number between zero and one would be a value on the y axis. Wherever that lands out, we hang a horizontal line to the curve and then hang a vertical line down. So that then we can pick out the value of x that corresponds to that uniform zero one random number. Very, very simple, easy to understand process. The next step is that's x. That's really, that's the whole thing. X is the sample value. And then you repeat over and over again until you have the sample size that you're interested in. So here's how we would use the inverse transform method to sample values from the exponential distribution with a particular parameter. The cumulative exponential distribution is on the graph in front of you. Again, the vertical axis is f of x, or in other words, a number between zero and one. It's a cumulative probability distribution. It's going to be a number between zero and one. And the x-axis is values from this exponential distribution. Maybe it's times, maybe it's interarrival times in your simulation. The formula for the cumulative distribution function of the exponential distribution is listed there. One minus e raised to the power of negative lambda x. And this is, so how do we figure out x? Obviously, we don't want to do it with graph paper. First of all, we won't be as accurate as we could be. And secondly, well, we just don't want to use graph paper. We will want to manipulate the formula in order to be able to solve for x. That's the objective, solve for x. We enter this algorithm with a uniform zero one random number and we exit the algorithm. The output from the algorithm is the value of x and then we go and do it again. So the first step is that's the cumulative distribution for the exponential. The second step is to take the one to the other side. But if f of x is a number between zero and one, then one minus f of x is also a number between zero and one. So that's where we put the random number in. And now the random number is on the left side of the equation. The right hand side is pared down to just e raised to the power of negative lambda times x. And step four, step five are all intermediate algebraic steps to turn everything around and just solve for x. And we do that in step six. And now we have something we can use for repeatedly. We're coming in with a stream of random numbers between zero and one. We want to generate a stream of exponential random values. So each random number that comes in goes into that formula and out comes an x. This is to remind you of the relationship between the Poisson and the exponential distribution. The Poisson is a discrete distribution. The exponential is a continuous distribution. And we run into these a lot in discrete event simulations. Suppose we know that on average four customers arrive at our system, whatever it is, per hour. Well, that's almost exactly fits the definition of a Poisson process. Discrete events in a continuous interval. So this four must be lambda, the parameter of the Poisson process, which is not a function and doesn't change. It's a stationary Poisson process. So we look at the units. If the units on lambda is customers per hour, then that works for the Poisson process. If lambda is four, then one over lambda is one over four. And the units on that are hours per arrival. So the average into arrival time is a quarter of an hour, 15 minutes per arrival. That would have to be the mean of the exponential distribution. That's why generally, especially in simulation, when we use the Poisson and the exponential so much, we'll often use different designations, different notation for them. And we'll call lambda the mean of the Poisson distribution and mu the mean of the exponential distribution. But the notation is not uniform. So you really just take a look at the units, listen to the words. You have to know what's being talked about here. In this example, we're using the inverse transform method to sample from a distribution that's discreet. That's a customer arrival distribution. And it's an empirical distribution. In other words, we're just using the data as it is. And we're calling that the distribution. We've collected some data and we found out the proportion. We found out how the data is distributed. We're not giving it a name. We're not trying to fit it to any theoretical distribution. We're just using it as is. So here in this case, customers arrive. And these are 10-minute intervals. We have a probability of .4, 40% chance of getting zero customers in any 10-minute interval, 25% chance of one customer, 20% chance of two customers, 15% chance of three customers. That's the distribution. It's a discreet probability distribution where we're enumerating, listing the possible outcomes, the probability of each outcome. And in this case, because we need it, we're also indicating the cumulative probability where we just add one to the previous one. The probability, the cumulative probability of zero is .4. The cumulative probability of one includes the probability of one and the probability of zero. So it's .4 plus .25 is .65 and so on. So the cumulative probability of three includes all of the other probabilities. And that's the totality, that's one. With this discreet empirical distribution, the cumulative distribution looks like steps. And that's typically what you'll see. But when you plot it out, the x-axis contains the value, the x-value, number of customers arriving. The y-axis is the probability, the cumulative probability. So it's a number between zero and one. And we can do the same thing. If you use the inverse transform method, you generate a random number, uniform 0, 1. Figure out, look at it on the graph. Hang a horizontal line till it bumps into the curve. Then hang a vertical line to get the x-value that you got. So for instance, if the random numbers that we generated are .09, .54 and so on. Well, for .09, anything between zero and .4 will be zero. So that's a zero in the first time period. In the second time period, .54 gives you a one. .42, slightly above .4, also gives you a one. In the fourth time period, we get a .8. And that matches the x-value of two, two customers arriving in that time period. And then in the fifth time period, we go back down to zero. And so we've pretty simply used what would the exponential look rather complicated. But in this distribution, since it's discrete and we're just looking at a fairly simple distribution, it doesn't present any intellectual challenges for us at all, at least I hope not. But we're going to look at something soon that will give us a challenge. All right, one of our favorite distributions, the normal distribution. We know so much about it. It should be easy as pie to sample from the normal distribution and generate normal variants. Let's see. First of all, before even going further, we're going to forget about the normal distribution and stick to the standard normal because it's been studied. We don't need to derive any formulas. We don't need to create it all over again for every single pair of mu and sigma. The standard normal is usually called Z. Z is distributed as normal with a mean of zero and a standard deviation of one. Great. But of course, that's not really what we want to generate values from. Still, if we can generate the Zs, that's great because we could take any Z and transform it back into an X, solving for X again using algebra. So I guess that's a side note so that just to say when we're talking about the normal distribution and sampling from a normal distribution, we're really talking about the standard normal because it's a very easy transformation to go back and forth between what we'll call X and Z. The probability density function for the standard normal distribution is given in the middle of the slide. It's rather complicated, but it's not that terrible. It's one over the square root of 2 pi times e raised to the power of negative one half times X squared. The formula for the cumulative probability distribution of the standard normal is a little bit more complicated and not something we would really want to work with algebraically to solve for X. In fact, it's pretty frightening.  But again, using the graphical approach is very inefficient and time consuming and it's hard to generate a computer program to do it. So do we really want to use the inverse transform method here? Probably not. Thankfully, there are a lot of other alternatives. I'm going to show you one on the next couple of slides. This method of sampling is based on the central limit theorem. We know from the central limit theorem that if you take the sum or actually the average of variables that are drawn from a distribution even if the distribution is not normal as long as it's relatively symmetric it won't take that long for the sums or the averages to take on the shape of a normal distribution. The example that we see here on this slide is tossing a die which is basically a uniform rectangular distribution. We know that when you toss a die you'll get a number of either one or two or three or four or five or six. They're all equally likely so the probability of any of those outcomes is one over six.  Well as you know it's not enough just to know that you're creating this normal distribution by sampling from let's say a uniform distribution but it's nice to know you can do that. But you also have to know what the mean and the standard deviation is because what we really want is the standard normal distribution. So we at least have to be able to figure out what are the parameters of this normal distribution that we're counting on having sampled because we're summing the values generated from a uniform zero one distribution. Well as far as the mean goes, if for any uniform from A to B distribution, we know that the mean is one half A plus B. So for the specific case of the uniform zero one, the expected value or the mean is going to be one half zero plus one or one half point five. We know that the expected value of the sum of two random variables is the sum of the expected values. The expected value of x plus y is equal to the expected value of x plus the expected value of y. And by extension, if we have more than two random values from these random variables, then we can add those as well. So the method goes like this. Let's say we have 12. What would happen if we have 12? Well for random number from a uniform zero one distribution, the mean is point five and one half. So what happens if we have 12? Well, it's one half plus one half plus one half 12 times. So in other words, the mean will be six. If we sample repeatedly 12 times from a uniform zero one distribution, we'll have something approaching a normal distribution. We'll have an approximation of a normal distribution with a mean of six. Now what about the variance? Using the same tools that we did for the mean, the variance of a uniform zero one distribution reduces to one over 12. If you, when you sum variances or when you get, if you want the variance of a sum, you can also sum the variances just like we did with the mean. That's a nice feature. So for two, it would be two times the variance for 12. It would be 12 times the variance. That's one good reason for using 12. 12 times 112 is one. If the variance is one, the standard deviation is one, and we're halfway to a standard normal distribution. Finally, here's where we draw it all together. What's the actual process for using this sampling method to generate values from a normal distribution? Well, the first thing we do, we start with our typical uniform zero one generator. We get 12 of those, add them up, and then subtract the number six. Why? Because we need the mean to be zero. The variance is already zero. The standard deviation is already zero. So once we're finished with step two, we have a value for generated from the Z distribution, the standard normal with a mean of zero and a standard deviation of one. Step three is then simply using the transform algorithm to go from a Z to an X using whatever the parameters from the normal distribution that we're interested in that we started out with. And that's it. It's done. It's very, very simple. It's not great, but at least it's simple, easy to do, easy to understand. Okay, so what's so not great about it? Well, the fact that we're limiting ourselves to 12, summing 12 random numbers in order to get a value from a normal distribution, even if it's a decent approximation, we're limiting the values that it can take on. And sometimes we do want to sample from very low probability values in the extremes. And this won't be very amenable. This method won't work very well for that. And in addition, I mean really 12 random numbers for every normal random variate, we're going to run through our random number generators period very, very quickly. So then in addition, we need a pseudo random number generator that doesn't start cycling too quickly. What do we use all of this for in simulation? We use this in order to generate values that are used as input to the simulation. If we have customers coming into a bank, we need to generate into arrival times. If we have a machine shop, we need to generate the time until a machine goes out of service for whatever reason. So these are the inputs to the simulation. This all assumes that we know the distribution we want to sample from, and that's a whole other lecture, and that's what's coming up next.


The British government have a lot on their plate right now. We have to get to the other side of winter with Covid still raging through the population while avoiding the same level of deaths we saw in spring. We are now only a month away from the end of the transition period. We will be leaving the EU deal or no deal on the 31st of December. But Culture Secretary Oliver Dowden has still found time to focus on the issues that really matter. Yes, I'm talking about whether or not Netflix series The Crown has misrepresented Prince Charles and the Queen. This story relates to comments he made on Saturday when speaking to the male. Oliver Dowden last night demanded that Netflix make clear The Crown is fiction. In a dramatic intervention, the Culture Secretary added his voice to mounting concern that fabricated scenes in the drama series were so damaging to the royal family that viewers should be warned at the start of each episode that it was not fact. It's a beautifully produced work of fiction. So as with other TV productions, Netflix should be very clear at the beginning, it is just that he told the male on Sunday. Without this, I fear a generation of viewers who did not live through these events may mistake fiction for fact. There was also pushback from allies of Prince Charles. It comes amid deepening concern that fabricated scenes written by screenwriter Peter Morgan are doing lasting damage to the monarchy and Prince Charles in particular. Last night, a friend of the Prince said it is quite sinister the way that Morgan is clearly using light entertainment to drive a very overt Republican agenda and people just don't see it. They have been lured in over the first few series until they can see how they are being manipulated. I quite like that sort of conspiracy theory there from someone close to Prince Charles, which I mean he's kind of suggesting that the first free series of the crown were so good and agreeable just so in series four they could try and corrupt your opinion of Prince Charles. I imagine many of our viewers watch the crown. I'm currently halfway through series four. I know Ash has watched the whole thing. We can get some pictures up now in case you haven't. You can see their physical likeness. This is Prince Charles. He is portrayed very negatively on the whole in the series basically being shown as very egotistical, fairly disinterested in Princess Diana's well-being. This is Princess Diana whose physical likeness to Princess Diana is quite remarkable. She comes across as quite charming, which I suppose is to be imagined or to be expected. Ash, I want to go to you on this because I know you, I mean we both watched the crown but I feel like you have more expert knowledge than I do. Do you think it has been unfair to Prince Charles and do you think that Oliver Dowden, the culture secretary is right to take some time out in the middle of a pandemic? You might say he's culture secretary. He doesn't care about public health anyway. We do have an industry in crisis in this country because of lockdown and pandemic, so he should be doing other things for you. Let's go to that basic question. Is the crown unfair to Prince Charles? Well, first you've got a, I mean look this whole discussion is completely ridiculous because obviously it's fiction and I don't remember the brew ha ha around Peter Morgan's film The Queen starring of course Helen Mirren as the titular queen when it was depicting the days immediately following Princess Diana's death and it was depicting the queen as essentially emotionally overwhelmed by a situation which was completely at odds with what she'd been taught were the values of stoicism and duty and so on and so forth. There was actually positive noises coming out of Clarence House at that point and it's the same guy making this series and suddenly they've turned against him they say he's a closet republican all of this. The reason why and it's very simple is because this one season has completely undone the decades worth of PR put in by the Duke and Duchess of Cornwall, Charles and Camilla because the people who lived through the you know the Prince of Wales's divorce there were very clear binary goodies and baddies and partly that was because Princess Diana was a very adept player of the press. She did the Martin Bashir interview she gave an interview to Andrew Morton which became the documentary film in her own words and she spilt the tea and then you also had the notorious tampon gate so this was like a phone conversation between Charles and Camilla where he actually didn't mean it in a sexy way he was kind of being self-facing and weirdly jokey and he was saying oh just my luck you know I'd come back to earth as your tampon and you know be reincarnated as your tampon spend my day swirling around the U-bend so it was actually a bit more self-aware and jokey than that but you know there was pretty clear goodies and baddies even though Diana's infidelities became public knowledge Charles and Camilla were seen as you broke up the fairy tale couple you Camilla you're a scarlet woman you'd been carrying on with him when you were married yourself and all of this and in the years since Diana's death they really carefully built up a public image which which you know had moved away from that story quite significantly and the reason why this is important the reason why it's important to parking in palace that the crown is sort of undone this decade's worth of PR is because when Charles becomes king they don't know what they're going to do with Camilla right so she's divorced right and marrying a divorced woman it you know that's what caused the abdication way back in the 1930s they've sorted that bit out and they're go okay all right so you're going to be married to a king but unlike literally every other consort in history apart from the male consorts of a queen you're not going to be a queen consort you might be a princess consort or something like that they were going to try and work around it to you know avoid the sticky divorce issue and avoid riling up the public too much now with you know these these record-breaking numbers of people watching the crown that's how the window people are back in that sort of 1990s soap opera of Charles and Camilla bad now as to whether you know Peter Morgan was fair in that depiction or not you can see what he's used as his source material and particularly for the accounts of princess Diana's eating disorder Charles's responses to that you can see how he's really relied on you know the Andrew Morton book and other sources which have you know shown events very much from her point of view there was a war of briefing between the two of them but princess Diana was always able to win because she was the only one willing to put her face her name her voice to the account whereas other members of the royal family very famously you know would never never ever do that so i think that that's why the story is told in the way that it is i think another reason why the story is told in the way that it is which is a lot less you know the previous seasons of the crown i'm not sure if you watched all of them it presented Queen Elizabeth as essentially you know a good person who it struggles to do nothing but doing nothing is all she can do and she's got a kind of stuffy sense of duty but essentially she's all right in this season where where you know you've got the kind of speeding train of historical fiction colliding with our moral values as it gets closer to the present day you start to see the royal family is being not just you know outdated and not just having values which are incompatible with the modern world but are actively cruel cold destroying of of people their sensibilities in their inner lives and that's because there's no way around the fact that well yes that's the case you've got people whose lives have completely ruined because they're being shoved into these mismatched marriages why to maintain a system of unearned wealth and power which stretches back to William the conquerors basically your ancestor was the most successful thug of his day and now you get to be head of state so it inevitably becomes a less charitable depiction because you see how weird the social norms are within that family which maintain that fundamentally anti-democratic settlement so I'm not surprised that conservatives are annoyed about it but that's what has to happen if you want to have a drama depicting any of these people without simply becoming a kind of you know the Sophia Coppola Marie Antoinette where you become so enraptured by the glamour and the baroque and the gilding that you don't actually tell a social or a historical story anymore so I think it's the constraints of the form and I think it's a really good series the other person in the show or their depiction that has been pissing people off is Maggie Thatcher very entertaining in the show and I want to go back to a tweet which was tweeted by Tim Montgomery who's worked in Downing Street recently he was also a writer a conservative home but he was one of Boris Johnson's advisors so he tweets out I can't bear to watch any more of the crown and it's absurd hateful portrayal of Margaret Thatcher such a shame I was confused when I watched the first two episodes and saw that tweet because in the first two episodes she comes off really well because she's someone who's sort of against hereditary privilege she goes to meet the royals at Balmoral and she sort of thinks that they're all kind of stuck up elitists and she's a hard-working person who has worked for her success but when you do go later in the show she does you know obviously get portrayed in a more negative light some of it's true though I was watching the Maggie Thatcher documentary because one of the things that happens in the show is they say she you know she didn't really like her daughter or didn't like her daughter to the same extent as her son and in this documentary and it's another BBC documentary very good someone one of her private secretaries tells this anecdote of he went in to meet Maggie Thatcher to discuss whatever and he heard a little scuttling in a cupboard and so he says you know Maggie what's going on have you got rats in your cupboard and she was like oh no that's my daughter she was wearing jeans so because her daughter was wearing jeans she put her in the cupboard so you know obviously at Navarro Media we disagree with this woman's politics but she also seemed like a pretty goddamn strange individual my absolute favorite bit though of the male article is a comment from a Tory in a letter to Mr Dowd and Tory Lord Forsythe who describes the latest series of the crown as one step up from spitting image expressed surprise that Netflix pays no corporation tax as the one billion of UK subscriptions are paid to a Dutch company so this is the only way you can get Tories to care about tax evasion is get a tax avoiding company to speak badly of Prince Charles we need I suppose Amazon and Apple and all of these other mega corporations to start a little battle with the Royals to make any progress on that front