I've been reminded that I had forgotten to turn my mic on again and if we could you have some mic set up there Which is great, and I left a message for it to drop up and see why it is that even though previously I could just turn on the projector here and have it work I found that that didn't work yesterday either and so we must be missing a step or a settings changed So we'll see if we can put anything up on the screen that way you know from the List of topics what's on this week's agenda, and obviously we only met a week ago but the two main focus of today are review the full working draft and Also the new item of the town council goals that were presented at our last town council meeting on April 22nd what I will say about the goals right now is that we are not planning to spend any time on that today and Unless someone feels particularly compelled by something they saw on it that they want people to be starting to think about But because our goal is just report to the town council this coming Monday May 6th On draft rules document that it's taking primary precedence over doing the larger goals for the council for the year So as I mentioned in an email a couple of times housekeeping wise There is a copy of that rules document in the meeting folder for today It should be and it has been highlighted to shows actually the different committees I happen to be a part of but it shows where rules is highlighted in there So you can take a look at that. I would plan that we would talk about that next week, but again next week will be The day after our town council meeting So we will obviously have some feedback that we'll be working with them And I appreciate that the president has mentioned that she can be a little flexible on our goals feedback But understanding where we are In terms of our process now, it's just as interesting as it is It's not rising to the top of things we have to do right now So did anybody have any questions about the goals document because now would be a good time to ask if the president's here with us Has anybody even had a chance to look at it since she emailed it Okay That's what we'll do so in regards to what else we're going to be doing the draft Document Kathy had previously put up a revised version based on feedback from last meeting I added edits to a version that version is also available on SharePoint Some of the edits that I made I tried to mark clearly as being substantive versus who I took out of A paren or a period or reordered a sentence Some of them are substantive that we've probably never talked about some of them are things that you've talked about and made a different Decision that I wasn't aware of because I wasn't around perhaps We also have some new information from the town clerk as to what she would like to also see us consider putting into the town clerk section So I will get to when we talk about that I think I'll put a pin in that for later so that we can focus on the things that we have already talked about because we Just started talking about the town clerk section last week You also notice if you looked at the draft version of the document that of the working rules document that I made I added an Extensive set of appendices at the end one of those is a place to maintain the policies that are currently Something that interact with the council because there is no such thing in this town as a policy book and never has been to the best of my knowledge So we have to keep it somewhere so an appendix to our rules seemed like an appropriate place to do that There's also a draft report that I worked on over the weekend and Kathy has indicated that she also has made some edits to that So we will get started I think the first thing we should do is we should I want to glance at the report because I want to Get a sense of what those changes were so that as we're going through the rules document We make sure we think of some of those highlights so that we can pop those into the report since the report is something We'll be wanting to submit Later this week. So Kathy you want to talk about what the edits were that you made to the report since I'm obviously familiar with What it said before But not what the report says now So we should be in the report everyone should be in the report You all need to speak more into them okay They are it's just that we've been viewing tapes and voices are not okay I'll provide a overview of what I did And I had actually signaled what I thought it this needed in an email to everyone. So I Framed I added words Framing that we In the guide to the draft rules I added a section that noted that we'd looked at some 30 others city and town council rules are procedure and Shallony will have a better count than I did I just went and counted all the ones that were in my own folder and it was 30 And then we were looking through things that we so were variations as well as concepts They hadn't common When drafting our own rules and then in the reader's guide My suggestion of a way of flagging what we think of as innovative creative or different would be to yellow highlight it So when we look at the main report the yellow something yellow highlighted would mean pay attention to this Not that it's controversial necessarily, but that it's interesting and that there were a few areas where we didn't reach full agreement on what the rule should be and I came up with blue highlighting and I played with whether to be green and red and I decided yellow and blue had no No qualitative Qualitative so I did so yellow would be things like for an example our dialogue sessions our Our work groups, you know, there are few you know a few other that giving Committees the permission to be creative, you know, whatever we think need to be highlighted And so that I so I added substance to that and then on how to read the draft rules. I Went right away to saying read the whole document And if you want to go back and look at the short document we've been working on and then pay particular attention to the yellow and the blue and We could add more words there But the notion is that a lot of the other content is what you would find in any rules that procedure, you know It's more either standard or required or required by our charter So that's that would be sort of the reader's guide then I flagged We had discussed this at the earlier last meeting in the meeting before Places and I think Mandy has suggestions about how wording this better but Flagged that we have inserted two places where we've got options and we talked about Giving an explanation of what the options were in a rationale why that why we had two options and also showing our votes on These options so this document shows that we were split voted and Showed how we vote it, you know that three votes two votes and who voted for which so this tracks that Then I at the end. I just added some summary comments Which were more just adding I thought it was important to alert people that we've in our rules a Given permission to think of this as a living document that if we want to come back as a majority of the council and change Some part of it either amend add or extract We might flag that when we talk about this on Monday night with the council because some councils Documents require a supermajority vote and only allow them to visit it once a year, you know, but we haven't put a restriction on Changing others don't are either silent on this or not So I just noted that this is not the first chance ever to write our rules But that will be living so I just put the word living document But the key changes are more background on the work we did to come up with this set of rules What guided our decisions? Flagging the two kinds of highlights one is interesting unusual or Amherst only Kinds of pieces and then where we're asking people to pay attention and actually vote on it because we're giving them options So those were the main changes and that Alyssa when we go through the main document. I don't agree So when we talk about appendices For example, I don't think the Charter should be an appendix to this. So in this report I Didn't I may have changed some of the things we said appendices I think so when we get to the main report I like to talk about how to keep this We our rules as short as possible and and we can for Charter We can make a hot link just to go right over to the Charter document in the online version of rules So there's no need to repeat wording Unnecessarily, you know, I'm a little concerned when we look at our rules that we thought we wanted to be short and succinct We looked at a couple towns that had done it that way, but we're at 22 pages About before we get to our appendices. So I don't want people to think they're about to read a Bible or a Dictionary or an encyclopedia. So so those were the main changes, but I think coming back to this To make sure we've captured in a short and I this is still just four pages long as a report So it's a nice short report But figure out anything that's missing. That's my Thank you for the filling in that middle section Kathy I appreciate it because I didn't think we'd be able to do that until after this meeting So it's really helpful to have that to start with today in addition to the beginning and end points I think one of the things that's made my service on this committee Exceedingly difficult in comparison to some of the other committees is that there are so many more philosophical differences as to how to approach things here and We can talk about the appendix for the Charter later But in referencing talking about the Charter too frequently in the rules That's exactly a problem I have is that I was really hoping we would talk a lot less about actual wording from the Charter in the rules Because we will need to be able to refer people to the Charter and have them work together If we're simply going to repeat what the Charter says that doesn't seem like a particularly useful document to me So I appreciate additional people looking at that as a focus because I don't like just repeating what the Charter says That would have been a much simpler task We have come up with much more creative ways of approaching things in several other sections Can we just get on to the document? Well, given that you got to give a really long explanation of your philosophical beliefs about this Kathy I thought it was okay for me to mention mine as well. So moving on to the document. Would you like to lead that? Yeah, I think we're gonna have to go through it line by line I would think that would be the point of reviewing an entire draft document. This is the first time we've seen it all together I Have some changes to the report that Kathy drafted. Are we still on the report? If there's something that immediately jumps out at you, I think it would be a good idea to go ahead and capture it I wasn't sure if we were moving on. I wasn't sure. I didn't think we were done with the report Yeah, I think if you want to grab it now, we can make a note and then that way we can come back to it at the end Of today's session Kathy given that you did the most recent section of edits on this How would you like to accomplish that in terms of technically getting those into this document? I had two very minor things and then a request for an additional section So do you want to capture that Kathy? Do you want to do that?  The rule 10.1 option I Just ask that we include What each of those two options do? It seemed to be missing the second half of the options. So it read whether policies or process Recommended by a committee must come to the full council for a vote before being formally adopted And then I would add the clause or whether the council should clarify in each committee's charge which policies need council approval Okay, okay Can I can show you that language after the meeting perfect? Yeah, and there was a spelling the next one down I would put the word as in front of ex officio I think to make it a full sentence and that might just get lost as we get this report to Final I would like to No, so so the committee draft rules in the report had a bullet point on rule 10.1 But only discussed one of the two options and had a bullet point on 10.10 Which is the ex officio or not since 10.10 the ex officio one is essentially you're either ex officio or not The wording that Kathy has proposed seems Because it has whether or not counselors may participate so it's got the word not in there that covers both options So she's that first one Darcy ten point one I don't have the alternative. Yeah, and whereas in ten point ten I have whether or not, you know, so that has to be there can or you can't is those are the two No, no, no, no, no in the report I just want in that bullet point both options indicated as which the options are I'm not eliminating the option Oh, no, I think up here up higher up higher Sorry, it was hard to say where I was. Yeah Yeah, no, I'm not eliminating the options Darcy and then I would like to see we had talked about as a committee in The report and whether it's this report or a subsequent report out of this committee because I can foresee us having a second report at some point including a section on items we had talked about I'm trying to find my That we have as recommendation that we as a rules committee didn't get to but we think some committee Potentially GOL because I think we just said most of it would fall to GOL But whether it's a different committee or not we recommend or we think would be useful documents We talked about an external document for how the public can participate that's not embedded in the rules We talked about Creating recommendations as a council for posting public comments on the website and that needs looked at somewhere We talked about potentially having a council policy for approval of minutes standardized Do we want to we didn't get to that particular item in the rules? So that might be one to forward on somewhere. So some section that includes I think that's so like that so it would rev and can you draft that then and we or just and then we can just Plop it in the middle of this sure I guess the question is do we wanted to know or a future report I We could we could flag in this report that there will be such a thing And then I think we should offer it at a later meeting because we really want people to focus on this Not on the things that we haven't had time to discuss in more detail yet And so we really want them to focus on this But when we are finished with our final or intermediate step to be able to say and these are the things that aren't in here That we think that someday ought to be addressed Okay, so it may be that it could be in the super short form Additional issues will follow up in the next report or something It can say right here that there are additional issues and they will be addressed in a separate report later And then that way people can just pull that out later when they're comparing it to a further revised version of the rules And this would get dropped into summary comments No, this is a separate report that well There's a sentence or two that I'm writing under next steps that says that there will be such a report and then a report Maybe when we present the final rules Okay, I'll be editing it one more time after today before it goes to but a second report to council meetings or something From now that's like the final rules committee report. Maybe could have that I just don't want to lose track of yes. We were going to do that So Alyssa are you editing this right now or should I be editing you should be editing based on the things that you added today And the items that we come across that are still issues of disagreement that you wanted to highlight in the document You can make a note and I've also made a note of the fact that I'll be editing it one more time before it's submitted to the town council We still focused on the report The report itself will be edited by me one more time I'm expecting you to drop some data in about the disagreement. We don't have to wordsmith this sentence I have a note Mandy report of items we can move on now and we can talk we that report will be a future report So were there any other items in the report that you wanted to talk about Okay, cool. So now Kathy if you'd like to lead us through the actual draft drumroll, please That would be terrific. Okay. Um, I guess we just should go through each of the track edits and If I keep master control here, um, if we like the edit I can do right now and accept the edit and Then we can talk about any Does that seem like a reasonable way? It's not up on SharePoint because I can't view it on SharePoint. So we'll have to each be just So I'm gonna we can be looking at but you will edit So we won't see live changes because you want to make sure that you can capture the live changes effectively So we can look at what I'm doing right now is Is it in the header So I want to make sure we're all working from the same documents to remind us Kathy, which one you're pulling up Because I see a couple other versions here I don't have a deleted Maybe you had added a date that then When Alyssa did her changes the date got deleted and so Yeah, so I think I think So we are in the version that I worked on most recently. Is that correct? Yeah, okay? So I'm gonna I've already saved it under a new name And you're going to do live edits right now, but we won't see them And that's okay because we have this as a reference document as we go along because I'm not doing it in SharePoint So we're just gonna try we're just gonna say yeah, thank you Kathy for doing that, you know, okay? So to be started so the table of contents I thought it's gonna be okay to send this to the council without the table of contents right now in case any of the Subheadings, but just make it clear there will be one. Okay, just You can do like headers and highlight right one is a header so that the table contents is really easy to produce Without having to separately type them you can change it from like body text to header text Okay, as far as help you with that and so as far as I'm concerned, you know as I'm looking at it the first The the initial is just as stated as I think that's fine I just I didn't download it. I just opened it in word Darcy's is showing up with it. See mine shows up as a strikeout Go review Now now you'll see when it's easier to read it that way because you can see how this what the original sentence was Without having to read So is everyone looking at something that looks roughly like this then yeah, it's it's just if you don't If you don't see it with the strikeouts, you can't see how the original sentence read correct Mine shows the strikeout so I'm assuming everyone feels comfortable with where we're at preamble's fine and purpose didn't have any changes. So it's fine Authority I simply Oriented the sentence that was okay. So just one thing Alyssa the reason This was written the way it was because we hadn't yet done definitions. Okay, so This is the only section when I read through at the preamble that didn't just do the simple charter and We enabled ourselves to do charter because down below it says whenever we say charter We mean the Amherst homeroom charter. So that is the regional was originally written the other way Yeah, the reason I changed it is because the charter itself says we can refer to it as The homeroom charter and I thought we were all using the commitment charter But if it would please you to put it the other way, I'm totally fine with that. I understand your logic I mean, I don't feel strongly that I know that was the main reason we left it as is so My my thinking is if if we go to what Alyssa changed it to we add a homeroom in front of the word charter Because that's exactly how the charter says it would be the homeroom charter not the Amherst But we don't shorten it to even charter these rules are what shortened it even farther. Okay. Yeah, that's true We shorten it more. So what would you do with a change and that was the whole problem I think just reject that just reject that change and don't worry about it Rejected that would be fine Okay, and then I added in an item and so I'm gonna pipe up when it's something that I added So the reason that I added that is as the note says on the side We didn't address anywhere in here remember how I did a document that checked all the word rules and all of our in the charter I wanted to mention here that we are not doing that now That doesn't mean we wouldn't do it in the future that could be added to the list of someday things But I thought it was important to address every instance of the word rules that was in the charter Opinions I Would say we can maybe look at that at a different next meeting And I think that's what you just said right no what I'm saying is no That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the charter says we can establish rules for other committees Remaining silent on that seems less optimal than saying this set of rules is not Establishing that then we can if people want to they can add to that someday list Someday we should influence rules of other committees, but I didn't want to just leave it out there that we didn't make We didn't make a proactive decision. We made a proactive decision Not to submit rules to the council that have anything to do with determining other bodies Rules and orders of business which the charter enables us to do so rather than remaining silent and saying somebody should find that In the charter someday that we could do that or somebody asking us from another committee We could just simply say it up front. We're not doing that, but they can do it so My initial so we are talking about the new one for that. Yeah My initial thoughts when I read it was it wasn't necessary because the title of the document is town council rules of procedure Not multiple member body rules of procedures so to me that was obvious enough if people don't think that's obvious enough that it's not Going to apply to multiple member bodies, then I'm okay with leaving this in I would just ask for an additional clause in that Section beyond what Alyssa drafted if we are going to leave it in I don't necessarily think that it's necessary though I I don't think it's necessary and I Find anything that says We're not including something to be extra words that we don't need to have You know so read this because we're not going to say it tell you anything about it So to me it it takes away from the flow Said this is our rules. This is what we're doing How we're going to act in definitions? It's right in the middle, and I would just take it out to make it Brevity throughout this I'm going to argue for be brief and succinct where we can Because it's not adding anything I'm going to argue every single time that this is supposed to be a useful document that people can refer to regularly and Sometimes shorter is the enemy of doing that. Okay, but Alyssa earlier You said don't add sentences to the charter just assume people have read the charter So this is to me a sentence from the charter that is not particularly helpful in our own preamble and the way I reason I disagree is because this is the first charter We've had that says that one body can control another body's rules We never had that in the Old Town Government Act That was not a thing the select board in the town can we just talk about what this says It says each member model body that does not include counselors shall determine its own rules It doesn't say the council has any control over those rules It says each member body though, okay Maybe we have a misunderstanding of what the charter section refers to there the charter says unlike any charter We've worked under before in this town. I'm not talking about Greenfield or Northampton. I'm talking about here says that The town council has the ability To control other committees by creating rules for them We are choosing not to do that the reason we are choosing We're saying that these apply to anything that have counselors on them. These don't apply to the conservation Commission We're making that super clear So if the conservation Commission wants to do something someday They still have that option and we're not controlling it a future town council six months from now May want to try and control it just as we've had that discussion about charges of other committees All I'm saying is that particular sentence says we don't have any control over those bodies So I don't think it's conveying if you think we have control over other bodies It doesn't say that we don't have control if we don't take it rule Section 9.1 to be that Alyssa sites from the charter is that each multiple member body shall determine its own rules and order of business Unless another provision is made by the town council or general laws. Okay, so that's the I'm missing that Claws that clause is in there so that Alyssa is correct that we could make a provision My point is that these rules are clear enough in their title that they're not applying to Multiple member bodies. Okay, so I'm just missing those words because otherwise it doesn't Read that we have any control over them You're supposed to know that because the charter is not supposed to be repeated inside the rules document This this does repeat the sentence from the charter. No, it doesn't that is not the same sentence in the charter Multiple member bodies can include counselors and this language would exempt the for example the ECAC or JCPC or BCG committees from And maybe include them in these rule scopes. It's to me. It's worded not accurately either Because this wording is member body that does not include any counselors shall determine its own rules Even if that multiple member body includes counselors, they can determine their own rules The town council is not a multiple member body. So the town council's rules are separate And we're not so even these rules don't apply to ECAC despite what the scope Document as drafted might imply you're indicating that that might okay That even the draft itself is not quite accurate and is potentially Okay, I can see that I mean I was trying to avoid that by adding the counselors in there Which is why it's not verbatim from the charter But I now see what you're saying in regards to that and so I think it would be this would be an appropriate place to put In the we are not can we I can quote the for example in that list that you have that would in your mind Mandy Joe of future items. I can say We didn't address this section of the charter. It's just another for future reference thing That will not be in this report That will be on that list of future items as we are not attempting to apply these to anyone else And that's a future option of the council So so is what you're trying to say is that these rules apply only to the town council What I'm trying to say that seems obvious from the title what I'm trying to say is that the charter itself Gives us the option to make rules just like the charter itself gives us an option to make rules around Provision around the finance committee. It doesn't say what those rules look like Okay, I just I'm we're never gonna saying add to future thing. We can be done arguing about this now So are we but are we taking 1.4 out? Yes, okay? Absolutely. I didn't understand that is fine Be a way of down the road discussion As I said, I just wanted to capture every instance of rules that was captured in the charter The only reason that one point set what now says well, it should be changed back numbering to amendment It actually changes back automatically. Yeah, I'm saying I can't give you the number reference because I'm not working from the same version You're looking at but amendment and repeal was simply that just wasn't the phrasing we used elsewhere in the charter So I was trying to be more in the rules. I was trying to be more consistent We don't normally say to vote in favor Other places. I'm fine with you. I'm fine with the changes Just trying to have it scan and I was just looking at retitling rule to to have less words in it See that we have 24 pages to cover here and We just took 45 minutes to do One page and a report the report to pardon me So, you know, we how far how long are we here today? We said that at the beginning of the meeting We're here to one except for people who have to peel off because they have things to do We have to turn something in we can obviously take something that like just happened and say if anything's going to be a controversy It gets put aside I'm ready. Sorry. We're on. I'm okay with the name change We're on rule two. It's a name changed I added the material into into election of officers because one we need to be clear that the clerk of the council is to preside over the election That is not in the charter. This is a rule the other things are rules about nominating oneself and being able to speak to your Qualifications, we have gotten feedback that it looks like we've done everything outside of the room when nobody comes in and talks about what they're doing So we didn't do that. Okay So are these each Just formatting are these going to be just bullet bullet bullet how should I guess I was figuring it would depend on how the rest of It looked and so rather than trying to add numbers and letters that no, I didn't I'm just asking I think this is fine So there was nothing there was just new some new wording added here Just some things. Yeah, I'm okay with them And I just changed the wording on change its officers and discretion back to the way charter says and I just broke out the president into Because again philosophical difference not having a block of text, but a list. I don't care if it's bullet points letters I I don't care at all. I just wanted to be able to refer to it more easily. I Also thought it was important to add the part about the press that's new Yeah, I think so To to G She's this is what it ends up looking like you better go up I just mine's open in word and it looks like this Everybody else's look like that mine and Shalini's look roughly the same, but not identical I Did not I don't like the moving the vice president clause up above what the president's duties are it makes it's weird to me to Show the vice president's duties before the president's duties, so I would Personally I understand I wanted people to think about it simply because we don't we don't outline any other vice presidential duties And so that's fine. If you want to have it at the end, that's fine So undo that but I would appreciate if we could keep the reference to the rules that I added within the president's section Assuming those are still going to be the numbers of the rules at the end. I didn't like the new G. I must say No, so there's no so we don't have a rule about who talks to I think it would be the president's job to Potentially either speak but I don't think the president can say I don't think we as counselors give up because we're not president My ability to speak to people but beyond that the president might not be the appropriate spokesperson and could Delegate that to someone and this language is written doesn't even allow for the delegation to say the chair of finance for a financial thing horse it allows for delegation saying something someone serves as spokesperson does not mean that they can't delegate and by not Putting it in here at all then again You're not having a rule you're just having a repeat of the Charter document if all you're gonna do is repeat the same Can you can you just change your tone a little bit? Let me just point out something this section has been drafted for two months and has been presented to us Every time so if you're talking about a frustration level There's probably other around the table to get this now So let's just talk about it as a slightly lower term because you have had Lots of opportunity to come back with this. This was one we all sat down with and The document other than the other two sections has been presented every time So we're just trying to get all the way through the document and not argue every word If everyone doesn't agree, we'll have to figure out what to do with a section that's new We're just gonna have to figure out a process that gets us through So let's be clear that we did not wordsmith every single section at every single meeting and yes some of us miss some meetings There is no question. I just say just just lower the volume a little bit So we can figure out if everyone likes G or not fine cuz it's new Fine and we could also come back to it if you'd like to move on to another section and mark it to come back to it So it's not the document that doesn't have my initials in the title But she's in three two not two No, I know I downloaded to my PC so that she could accept the changes immediately as we do them Because I'm saving it Okay sharing documents is always good, you know, I'm accepting changes so everything So It's if people want to vote On that particular clause that's fine with me Otherwise since obviously we've only had the time to sit with it as in this morning because you know We don't express opinions to a quorum outside of a posted meeting is that if you We could either one drop it We could to leave it in as a point of we don't know what we want to do with this or not Three we could put it into a future document I mean we have choices here, but we don't have to argue about it for five minutes So so I would vote to drop it if we're staying on G. I would just be silent on it Okay, so then I disagree and so at what point do we does it make it into the document of we don't know what to do So this goes in not the report where we had votes on disagreement, but this goes in the future future Future explorations. What do you want to call it Mandy Joe future explorations? eventual GL work I'm putting add to Mandy Joe document That's what my okay, and and that would be because we have to figure out who and how we figure out spokespeople So it would be a longer. Can I ask why you edited? The President shall provide prepare agendas But we had prepare agendas with the advice of council members in the town manager Is the reason you took that word out? Yes, because it says go to rule 10 which talks more about preparation of agendas It was avoided repeating so it'll it appears later. Yeah, okay What about the added H? I kind of liked the state of the town being In a separate rule because it's not just the president H now pulls a town manager duty Into duties of the president instead of setting it separating it out further. I Know the language was copied directly. It's just where in the yeah I don't I don't like having it stand alone because I think it's it simply belongs in the president's duties And the president should be able to see all their duties in one paragraph Okay, not have to also read the state of the town. What do we come back to where it was before? Cuz I don't remember where it was Right So you didn't like it as a freestanding correct you wanted to under Just the president wanted to be clear that all the president's duties were in one section Not this entire section is not called president's duties. It's called organization. I Am so I don't mean it was a presidential duty and it belonged in the presidential duty section and It's also a duty of the president vice president. Does anyone feel strongly about this in terms of where it used to be Okay, so we're moving we're we're gonna just leave it where it is So I'm doing accepts for these so we're gonna have to come back to the town council I'm leaving it in age unless I hear differently So there's a new section clerk of the council that's been added in here Kathy gave me the section to add to and I've added to it and I've also now heard back from Margaret And she has even more that she'd like to add into this So what I'd like to do is put a pin in this and come back to this later in today's conversation. Okay So you have it's all new so language from Margaret. Yes, I have additional language from Margaret That's even longer. I had some additional language Let's come back to that because we'll see what we can come up with later in the meeting But I think we need to move ahead And we will come back to that later today. It's not next week. I mean later today Okay, because that's not something you guys have been talking about all this time. It only came out last time So are we down to rule three council meetings? Yep I just thought the wording of Suddenly saying that chairing was a thing as opposed to just being presiding officer was just a little didn't really match the rest Of what our meeting stuff said but I'm not gonna die over it I just thought it was a it just seemed clunky to me Yeah, and then the section that you might remember me talking about minutes of council meetings Which I believe is still 3.5 I had one in 3.2 that I wanted to talk about okay good I didn't change the president and I forwarded this request to both Our chair and vice chair wants to have highlighted for discussion at the council level 3.2 e 10 p.m. That right so if we can just highlight that for this is Yellow is it yellow? I think this is a new and exciting the yellow is new and exciting No, yellow is things to discuss and highlight as different or new or things to discuss that we have options It's not without blue is option way. I didn't think they were to be discussed I didn't think that's what the report said. I thought the report said we're highlight We're drawing them to your attention because like these are the exciting pieces then maybe it's a blue highlight For discussion, okay, so we can go back to the report. We can say Do an interesting or people may might want to discuss it So we'll just add that we're you know that we put this in but we want it We want you to think about it. So why are we not making just the recommendation and saying it's new and exciting because we all Agreed that this was a recommendation. We're not saying that the entire town council has to agree with us But that's true for every other no We're just gonna flag it because if you don't flag it with yellow like this people won't see that we've just and we actually Those of who may or may not remember way back in December. We had this discussion And we just never wrote it into our own operating rules and we certainly have not Been operating this way, but so I think it's yellow is just a notion of when you're reading through this a lot of this Will just be this is the way we've been doing it or something But this is something totally change how our meetings are run But I also don't think it has anything to do with it like a blue highlight, which is a split opinion No, no, it's not blue yellow. It's just yellow. Yellow means pay attention to it. Yes To make a decision those right to way exactly that's how I understood it too And I just thought that Mandy Joe is going a different direction with it I don't think yellow is no no No, she highlighted literally highlight. She was just asking that it be yellow highlighted so people see it's there. Yeah, right Good that makes total sense Draw people's attention to the highlights. Yes There's some obviously editing to be done for formatting here and we can talk about that later and then Minutes are we up to 3.5 minutes or where there are other changes other than formatting So you've got the yellow highlight Kathy So if I move on to minutes of council meetings the what I was trying to describe in a couple of previous meetings Did not quite make it in and that's how I tried ended up trying to describe it this time Some of the things that are listed in a are requirements of mass general law Some of them are requirements of the Charter and some of them are requirements of these rules So rather than citing each individual one I just When Kathy when you go through for formatting, I'm concerned with the deletions and Whack of parentheses that that Sentence will be unreadable. Okay unclear So we can find a way to cite everything with it being readable would be nice. Okay Are we are we putting that burden on Kathy as well? Yeah, I'm gonna It goes to the formatting of stylistic. Yeah, I mean in addition to all the a's b's ones and chews It's really it's really easy for me to do it if I know that I'm doing that and and I'll just I'll remember I only caught a couple of those when I was already in a sentence for another reason Now we have two different ways of doing a's and b's so we can just make a decision at the end how we do them Exactly, and I know exactly where they are. So we're 3.7. Yeah 3.7 I I know I've been Hurping on this but I've been trying to make clear that an emergency is not what you or I might call an emergency It's a very specific concept in law so Is this an exact quote from CMR? Yes So I guess my concern with I get why you would want to add it You've taken some other things that are exact quotes from CMR's or OML's out So there's a consistency of what we put in what we put out that I'm not sure I get But my concern is if we're quoting it instead of just saying 940 or an emergency as defined in 940 CMR or whatever I know why you want to quote it But my concern is when 940 CMR changes if we have it defined in here, we have to come back and Change these rules. We don't actually because the CMR would be controlling Well, but there would be this disagreement and so if I'm looking at a future thing How can we avoid? Creating disagreements when things in the future change in state law. My husband had the same Be careful in writing in the state. Yeah, better to just so my preference would be an emergency which shall comply with the general laws and regulations or something instead of as defined in 940 CMR so that we don't redefine it as they define it so that we don't have to change it when they change it So that's true for every mass general law reference We make anywhere else as well, which we have to be cautious about I understand I and I also am the reason okay The reason I put this here is because Emergency has been defined poorly in the past and not in compliance and it what it said before Here was simply referencing the charter and the charter does not elaborate on what an emergency is the charter does not reference the CMR if you want to just put the CMR there and Not say shall comply with because that makes me want to cry every time I see words like that It just it can either be defined as or it can simply be It can just end with laws and then have the CMR reference and the charter reference that would be fine with me We don't need to say shall comply with that's that's not helpful We can say that there's an actual CMR reference, which we did not have in here prior to this We only had the charter reference. So is it the wording instead of shall comply? Call an emergency meeting which where emergencies are defined by the general laws that what we're trying to say You know, I'm just trying to understand what was missing from the way we did it before What was okay? So what it said before was it ended with the word laws? Period and then it had a charter reference the charter reference is no more than exactly what it says here So instead I'm just adding the CMR reference. I don't need any of the words from the CMR. I don't care about that I just want to have the added. I know that's what I put here But now I'm fine with because of all the conversation We've had take out all the highlighted words and just reference the CMR as well as the charter That one would be okay if we just reference the CMR. Yeah, so I Went overboard in referencing the CMR will just reference the CMR itself without its definition So three three point eight is in rule five and in fact there were two different time periods called out in the two Different versions of the wording and so it seemed reasonable to just say look at rule five. I'm okay with that. Yeah Yeah, and and we're gonna highlight it yellow here and then highlight because it's special exactly exactly What about round tables you probably want to highlight that too we can highlight it I was gonna get rid of the words or round tables both in the title and in the first sentence because we you know Yeah, only say work session. So We should just okay use the work session. Yeah, I think that was a good working title, but I think yeah, but I think work sessions Clarifies that, you know And just so those of you who may or may not remember it's because some town meetings Town rules called them work sessions and others called them round tables, right exactly So I gave both things they always defined in the same way So I'm taking or round tables out of the first sentence as well, right? Yes That was the only other the first sentence was the only other time round table was used So I figured we decided on work session And should we capitalize work session every time it's used? It's like used four times Because that's an awfully big block of text and I thought about trying to bullet it out But then I was sensitive to making the document too long. So maybe if we highlighted each I mean we capitalized it each time That would help for readability. I think I found one two three four times Because they are a semi-official thing because they're defined in here I Would get rid of the quotes over around yet session the first time right? So what I'm thinking is the purpose of such sections instead of having to say each set and then I can do Purpose of such sessions each session shall be devoted to unless we always want to do work sessions You know in not having to find it, but I'm I'm not strong on needing that It's it's the way you fix some committees later Okay, let me just see how it looks when I would do it For now, I'm capitalizing or work every time work session appears it will be capitalized and the Quotes around work session will be gone Flowing right away down grand agenda Just a question on the change of the title To me this agenda order only applies to regular council meetings. We don't have to use this in Council committees ad hoc committees and other business. So just when you change the title where you're thinking it had a broader Broad you know you took regular council meeting out of the title right so I Thought it was wordy and I also wasn't sure since we didn't have a separate section that was agendas for everything else I was trying to understand what we were really trying to accomplish there So if you're not Suggesting the I would argue that any suggestion of this no matter what you call it is You know trying to set a standard for Other council committees, but it's not I mean It says agenda order for regular council meetings. It doesn't anywhere else say agenda order for anything else That's not another alternative. There is no other kind of agenda rule. So that's what I was looking for as I was like Oh, well if this is the agenda order for regular council meetings, then where's the agenda order for everything else? And so instead I was like, oh, this just is about Regular council on that's why it says 4.1 talks about gender. So I think it's just a different my brain was looking for a comparable section I'm good with the change in changing that I With Alyssa's points, I see we could probably make two other changes both in 4 1 and 4 2 We should probably delete the word regular and 4.1 so that the president shall prepare the agenda for Council meetings instead of regular council meetings because it's all because it's all council meetings With advice from blah blah blah and in 4.2. Maybe we just want to say Council meetings shall proceed in the following order unless the president or presiding officer of the meeting determines a shift in order We'll facilitate the process. It doesn't mean you have to have everything, but that's the order that works fine So that's funny council meetings. Yep, they're constantly calling council meetings regular council meetings They're just meetings unless there's something else. Yeah, we we got to that awkwardness because later we define these other meetings, but I'm fine Looks it looks really nice So Alyssa the the your color code is just a signal you change something, right? Yeah, I'm taking those back out Yeah, okay, right. You're not accepting that they stick because we didn't I didn't know what your color coding Was gonna be in the report at this point and we both picked that color. So yeah, these were just to draw your attention to something Okay, so I have a question on 4.3 where I see that you took it out and moved it to Public comments later I Thought it was Important that it be attached to the agenda section and I'll talk about later because there was a subtle wording change Because it it says that in these action areas. We're gonna take additional public comments So just you moved it out and was that because it's duplicative Why did you move it from so I moved everything out if you'll look at this? I took away this I'm just asking about this one. Well, that's why is That's the biggest reason is because I took everything out other than the basic list of agenda items I moved executive executive sessions is duplicative. So we didn't need it at all Just this one question because the agenda The agenda order goes one two three four and fourth is public comments But we actually have public comments opened up under action items. That's what we've been doing So that's it goes directly with it's not a definition of what a public comment is it's same We have an additional comment public comment period within this agenda So that's why I thought it needed to be anchored with agenda the reason I don't have that because you The wordings to general. Yeah in the actual agendas. We now use it's called general public comment So so number four would be general public comment Yeah, and under there we specify which items will have regular will have public comment later So right general public and so I understand exactly what we were trying to get out there I just thought the whole concept was better covered in the public comment section because it's addressed more thoroughly in the public comment section Okay, so maybe and we'll look at that when we get there I'm have the same concern. I think Kathy did in terms of agenda items I See this and I I've got some rewording I major topic hasn't ever discussed when there is a Presentation or discussion item or action item, you know, you can Tag it to numbers six and seven in the agenda It is to me when I read that sentence it to me Falls more on how does the agenda look? Not it also falls to when public will be able to comment But it to me falls is appropriate here Maybe it shows up both places because if it's not tagged here There is no indication that we on the agenda that we have the ability to that the president Has to be putting it there to so if we're looking at what does the agenda have to look like that? What was four point three and is now number well and it was deleted Needs needs something in the agenda to cue the president in to you have to put those stuff And do you remember when we first drafted this and sent it in we actually said after action item public comment after this public I mean it looked awful to draft it that way, but that's what we mean that you're opening up public comments in these I Appreciate that we're trying to say the whole reason we're doing this is to establish an operating rule I also think that we're making it a bit cumbersome on this page when I feel like it could be handled elsewhere But if it's important to you to keep it in this section and find a different way because that phrasing doesn't work I can and so if if you can find a way to rephrase it when a presentation and When items let's see it would be when presentation and Discussion items or action items are appear on the agenda for the first time President the president shall include additional public Shall include public comment sessions on those items The second half of the sentence could really be remain the same But it's when presentation and discussion items or action items appear on the agenda for the first time So does that mean that if an item came up for the first time for a discussion item? It it would have to have public comment But then there's no vote the next week it comes up as an action item for the first time Does it get public comment the second time also? I'm assuming so Yes, yes, we have been operating that way Just checking because it's not completely clear 4.3 I can I could say additional public comments colon and then when Presentations major topics or action items appear on the agenda for the first time the council president, you know So just to signal what? So we're we're opening it up or we could leave it just the way it is. I don't care I'm fine with this writing. I don't want to belabor this Yeah Yeah, so I have my what I edited as is when presentations comma major topics comma Sure, there's a comma there or action items appear on the agenda for the first time Count the council president shall include additional public comment sessions specific to the issue We can get rid of the word council the president, right? Yep, that makes it much clearer. Thank you As we're going through for some weird reason Kathy 4.1 4.2 and 4.3 don't actually have headers titles Even though in nearly every single other rule they did so Maybe we do they have 4.1 would be preparation of agenda 4.2 would be agenda order 4.3 would be It's actually not preparation of agenda. Oh, right. You're right for one is yes Preparation of agenda 4.2 is agenda item 4.3 is I hear what you're saying public comment Since we did that every place else. Yeah, we need headings there, don't we? Yeah, and then there's also the heading You know para line break paragraph, you know that kind of delightful formatting that can make you crazy So are we keeping the deletion of executive session posting? Are those from here? Alyssa, this is one you not 4.4 executive session. You deleted completely. Yep This is a matter of mass general on CMR. It's nothing to it. I totally get that it is so do we not feel like We should reference anything or have what those requirements are I'm okay with that I just want to make sure we know because I think the reason we were thinking about putting it in was so that there was a Place in the rules to say oh if we need executive session here's sort of how we have to do it And I I get that this conflicts with everything else, which is why I'm okay with the leading it I just want to make sure I just thought we'd either have to make it longer or We'd have to just say executive session see the law Or and then I was just like you know what just take it out because just like later I'm gonna ask and you may well disagree that we want to take out the ethics section or make it shorter Because again ethics laws or ethics laws. They have nothing to do with what we are saying are the rules So executive session is so precise that I didn't want to misstate anything by not saying enough And then the posting of agenda and packet section is is moved to the new clerk section, which we have to come back to Yeah, we have to come back to that the other The only other comment I had for posting of agenda and packets is when you moved it to the clerk section you actually changed and Deleted that those items go to the president too So We can fix that so we need to fix it somewhere or add it into some I think fixing it back There makes more sense than then then tacking it in here again because we want to make people just go look at that whole totality and so Yeah, and just Okay, so you'll when we get to it you only come back to that we come back I just I think we cross-reference Later on this notion of three days and two days rather than repeating it every so we've got a If we if we cross-referenced to where it was then it's moved So we have to change the cross-reference to where it now is I'm not sure why it moved. I'm willing to live with it until I see where it moved I Kind of like things together, but it says the agenda and the packets have to be here And the other thing I liked about it. It's just one page of a nice short agenda section. So Formatting wise I really liked it, but I'm Executive session where we are agreeing we delete it, right? Is that it's gone? Yeah Yeah, I kind of liked the posting and agendas here So market is leaving it there and when we get to the town council section see if it seems duplicative and Then and as long as it's worded exactly the same way in both places we should be okay It's gone Everyone in the world, but a few of us know what an executive session is we don't need to define it here That's the definition of it. So I See I I I feel like When you're deliberately putting something into a rule that not everyone knows it's an actually a good thing because they don't know Why we're going to an executive session why we're doing it? So that's why I thought we had put it there and I must say Almost I have I hate to make a statement like this because I'm a quantitative researcher But my memory is that most town council rules and procedure Include that paragraph probably for this reason so that the more general public understands what that session is It doesn't say anything about what an executive session can actually do it only talks about the Technicality of how it can be done I think if you want to include an appendix on what executive session currently is a Mass general law for people's information so they could see how very limited it is in its use But telling the public that you can only enter it after the council's convene. I don't think is helping the public learn anything Actually, I think I think that is mainly what the public wants to know Because they are frequently taken by surprise by executive session Then they go home and look it up. How can they do that? You know, how can they be not? Transparent or whatever and then this tells them how it happens and that there's a process and It doesn't say anything about what kinds of things it's for Yeah, it doesn't say anything and so that's what I'm saying if we wanted to beef it up I could understand that from a public education standpoint But as it stands, it's not to me useful as I don't care if 40 other towns used it this way It's not useful as a public reference If there's but it would have to be longer To talk about the kinds of things or something because that's what people really want to know They don't want to know that you have to call a meeting to order first They that's not what they want to know they want to know why are you allowed to do this? And it's pretend very specific Can I make a suggestion that we could keep then keep what was written because that Even if state law changes to lessen those how do you enter we could still require a more Stringent roll call vote and all if say state law changes about that, but then maybe add a sentence that says Executive session may only be entered into for reasons stated in whatever the SMC So we're not setting them out in case they change them But then there's a knowledge of where you go to find that and I don't know what that reference is but that part I would understand so so Mandy just give me the word I'm I don't I hope you don't mind, but it's a lot easier for me to do it if I do it right now No, it's it's executive session May only be entered into for reasons stated in Probably 940 cm are something we'll have to look it up So that makes it clear to the public. We're doing so I do a part of an agenda and first So I would do it just before the word a majority six take that session second No, I think you would do it after it as a separate paragraph Okay That is what actually makes clear to the public that there are very limited circumstances under which this can be done It isn't just we can decide to have an executive session if we follow these rules There's lots of rules about that for reasons For reasons Stated in yeah, and then we'll do it whatever the CMR references Shade that We're leaving it here But we have to make sure it's consistent with the language in the new clerk section So if you would please flag that Kathy, so when we get back to the clerk section that they say the exact same things So you highlighted the no later thans Alyssa is that for consistency were you concerned about or was that just a concern about the wording in that 4.5 No later than three days no later than two days prior Since I moved it, I don't really know I wanted to look at it over there again rather than Continuing to fuss with it here. I started with consistency and then I ended up with let's move it because we have a new section It fits under so just so that they match eventually whatever we determine in the other section So I should take blue off. I'm one step behind. I was just So the blue is there just so people saw that I reorganized that section so that they didn't say oh I thought you only added a word here and there So it really kind of hangs together differently now so you moved out of the opening paragraph the time up to three minutes with a limit of one and then you put it back in and Added the president is determined a shorter period is necessary for completion of the council business. Yes It looked to me and Alyssa clarify that most of these changes were Bulletin instead of yes Rearranging and rearranging not most of them. That was the goal most of them Right as opposed to changing the content because I found I just found it too hard to work with the text paragraph But so I thought okay people can sort of follow this down as to how they can expect things to happen when they're at a meeting Whether those are counselors or the per or the public It's a lot more elaborate than most people's public comment sections But I think that because it's such an important section to us It would be good But the one that the meaning does change is recognition No one may speak bubble on the little letter E it says you can Only submit a Written comment to the clerk During a meeting written comments during a meeting that just means they're not supposed to walk them around the front of the room I think it goes with what our intention of that original language was okay I had questions about the preamble to all of a the whole thing Okay, I had two questions up there and the first one was the addition of by phone I Get what you're trying to do Alyssa. Yeah, I think that sentence can now be read that Because it refers to attend its meetings and welcomes their views Whether expressed in person by phone or by written communication could be read to mean that public comment during meeting By phone So I would delete the phone reference because I don't really want people to point to the rules and say your rules allow us to Public comment during a meeting by phone Do you know do you know what the problem is the problem is yes The problem is that this section is this rule is called public participation We should have a preamble at the beginning of public participation Participation before we get into regular meetings public hearings public dialogue That sentence is actually that's what the problem is that sanctioned is the preamble to the entire rule five It belongs above five point one as a standalone sentence Does that make it so to be clear? That's what I'm trying to get at look at all these wonderful ways of public participation So it actually that's just version of it just actually goes in front of five point one So maybe it's not a separate rule at all. It just take that sentence. It's a preamble Between rule five public participation in five point. Yes, some I'd be okay with that that first sentence I just I read it. I was like, oh, we don't want that And I'm not sure why we want to say issues of import as opposed to you know some other kind of On on matters under the town council Council encourages all residents to attend its meetings and welcomes their views Up and welcomes their views on issues, right? Let's take import out, right? Yeah, I would say unless we're gonna say unless we're gonna try and say that there That I like Yes, and so once you fix that first sentence then it can all go above in between the two headings and then start 5.1 with all regular meetings. Does that make sense? Yeah? My my next one for that all the regular meetings one is the town's with the just the sentence you added about promulgating rules I Don't think it's necessary here. We're clearly promulgating those rules I know why you did it, but it's it's almost the circular the charter says we may promulgate rules And here's we and so we're saying in the rules we may promulgate rules and now we're promulgating. I mean to me It's an unnecessary sentence instead of just reference referencing the section So could we take out so the first sentence is now of 5.1 is now all regular meetings Shall provide for a period of public comment immediately after that just take out that sentence, but leave the charter That's fine. Yeah, that makes perfect. Yeah, these are Okay, I knew that I Almost like highlighted that one special Okay, so this now reads very simply all regular meetings the town council should provide for a period of public comment And then the charter reference and then it starts right in charge of the charter section to 6d li and then it starts writing with whatever the bullet is or the letters or the numbers or whatever you want to call them I don't care what they are and so the preamble says the current Council encourages all presidents to attend its meetings and welcome serve you on matters within the council's jurisdiction One comma whether expressed in person by phone or by written communication period. That's nice I love it Okay Any changes in the Blue highlighted edited list As I take the blue highlights of it first So basically that's where I kind of rejiggered the okay We talked in a couple different places about how many times you get to talk three minutes, etc And I just reorganized it and hopefully it makes sense now Just asking people to look at the DC Both sets have letters The addition you made of you know what I'm trying to get it comment must maintain No, I'm so I know what I think I know what you're trying to get at But I don't even really want to imply that we deliver it on the public comments that were made at a meeting I think why I would delete that I sent you so I had it in there as a warning Because a red flag because I've seen it other places devolve into well Let's just go ahead and talk about this now because the counselors are asking clarifying questions And I know that when you have the president in control it works great But I was really just throwing it up as a red flag if you think it makes it worse to have it in there Yeah, then I'm okay with taking it out But I think I had it in there more as an explanation for the public as to why we aren't because that as Darcy frequently points out what the public doesn't understand what we're doing And so that's why I wanted to be able to say we don't talk about your public comment because we have to follow I think if you're okay with taking it out it works without it Well, it works fine without it It just isn't as clear to the public why we don't have a dialogue the ease says We're not going to engage in discussions or debate with the council You know for the council to hear comments from the public not to engage in discussions or debate with the council But that would be could be because we're mean as opposed to because we're actually trying to follow up in meeting law That's what I was trying to clarify is that we're not doing it capriciously because there are people who say well Why do I come in and give a public comment? And then you just like don't do anything with it It's like well because we can't really because if you brought up a substantive issue We need to post could we just talk about a comma after that first e in compliance with open meeting law sure Or in order to comply with open meeting law or something Yeah With the council in compliance in compliance with open meeting Oh, I like that because that because it doesn't draw too much attention to it that way and that way even if that way The president doesn't every single time have to go into an elaborate explanation and made That makes a lot of sense to me Why does we haven't published the topic 48 hours ahead and Unless it's something that needs immediate attention the AGO's handbook suggests that we not talk about it Because it had because the whole rest of the public doesn't know we're gonna So what's interesting is in we could given the way we've opened up public comments on an action item or a presentation We are within the realm of then being able to talk about it Right, you know, so by saying in compliance We're allowed to do it when we've already got it on the agenda. So it's more the general I'm bringing up the parking policy when it's not in the agenda or the Right of the streets and things like that. So I think because we've opened up that other public comment period We're all allowing It's subtle, but we are allowing interaction on those items So and I think this protects us both ways and that we do that which protects us one way because we've already put it on the agenda And then we protect ourselves here by saying We're gonna follow the rules. I'm sorry, Lynn. Did you have something? Yeah, I'm I'm trying to understand E a and B Under e a and B because in the practice we've been following We don't do anything other than listen and So I was just that was written not with me So but I was just altering it a little bit to to edit it So maybe other people would speak to why they wanted to bring that forward. So there was some concern So inclusion of this was some concern that if someone makes a public comment on something like I'll give an example. We had at the Charter Commission. We regularly had well I didn't see those documents online and so this would allow someone to say here's where you go on the website to find those Documents in response to that public comment That's for information The wreck, you know for the clarifying questions if someone makes a comment and and I'll I'll give an example I think it was at I don't know which meeting it was at where someone came up to make the comment Well, I think Dave Zomek was presenting something. So it might have been JCPC Or something and I was completely confused as to what that person was even trying to get at this would allow someone to say Could you restate that so I understand what you're even trying to say? And that's why I said that's why I added in the words recognized by the president Lynn so that this would enable a Practice that has happened elsewhere in this room, but not with this desk setup is that during public comment somebody would do exactly that and we'd be like, what are they even talking about and so One person would raise their hand and ask the chair the president in this case and say could you ask them? To explain better what they're talking about another thing that would also happen is we would say Could you the president consider putting this on a future agenda? We can talk about that at another time and that was a way that the president could recognize That a counselor might very well know why a person's coming They're not expressing it well, and you're trying to help them get their need met It might be one. We want to just highlight in yellow those two. I just I just I just highlighted both of those And I made it clear that it was recognized by the president Not that just anybody could not just that any of us could just start talking during public comment But that we always go through the president I feel like it creates an expectation during public comment that just isn't realistic and And and it creates a situation where somebody does believe that they can come forward and Make some public comment and they're going to get a response in the meeting and That's just a very different. So are you saying when so it's not at all a different practice than what the select board's done It's a completely different practice than what the town council has been doing so far So are you saying that and I don't I can totally argue either point But are you saying if someone comes in and says I'm really upset about the homeless shelter and you know the town manager's working on a thing You as president could say I believe the town manager would like to make a statement about this during that time Or that's past practice or you current practice. You would just say thank you for saying that So are you saying that you don't ever want to be able to give staff the opportunity? To say something because when they come in and say how much some particular staff member stinks it It might Behoove you to be able to say the town manager or you as president would like to say we don't discuss personnel issues here Or the town manager might say no that person got you know left town two weeks ago Are you really are you saying instead that you would rather that we don't do anything during public comment other than listen? Because I think that I think your point about expectations is entirely reasonable. It's just a matter of What are those expectations we should manage those the irony is on the Two or three occasions where Somebody was inaccurate and or Try to engage in a direct discussion the People commenting were either very angry or they were out of line and In one instance it was the person that accused us of not reading our minutes And it was 12 o'clock at night and it wasn't true But to engage him would have just incited further Issues and then the other one was the most recent situation we had and wasn't a full council meeting when the woman who came in and sat next to David and made the comment and so forth and You know David Whom I think was familiar with the person I think tried to calm them down, but in fact They just started into their next Statements, which were not particularly relevant nor Appropriate and so there's a point at which And I'm I'm betwixting between on this because there's times I do because I think I know those two Instances and then I can think of several others that we in our practice. We've actually done this. We said are you talking about X Y or Z or Right, you know with with the very young person who often gives comments Dorothy did a response, you know, we've done some You know welcoming or appreciative or said, you know, perhaps a town manager could I'm just when is the date for such and such? Yeah, I would point out that both of these are maze not shouts Yeah, it's one of the few places. We actually use may yeah in this document So I just option I just yellow high and let me just also say that during the period of public Comment during public forums We actually want to have more we put to do this Yeah, and so maybe we leave it like this and I just have to understand your intent Yeah, and and future presidents have to understand your intent and the fact that may Really, it's really to give you that option, but that doesn't mean you can't take a completely hard line It's just that you have thank you under limited circumstances and yeah It's totally at the discretion of the president. Yes, so that's the point, right? Okay, leave it as it is then show Shalini show me where we're um Yep, so I I'm just gonna highlight it to make sure we oh you wanted it to be highlight Just highlighting means different things in different contexts. We're highlighting it as a we're special in yellow highlight Yes, no, no yellow means we're happy. We're attentive. That's not to mean we hate it or no It means it means it's new and it's somewhat different than standard. It's special Yellow is special blue is disagreement. That's a future that might not even end up in the rules because it's the Put the emails we get Kettle a fish, but that should be on our list of future can we put that? Okay, it is that that's on your the Mandy Joe list on Mandy's list Excellent, okay, so this is this next one is the one where We have it in two places, right? Yeah, so under public are we done have we skipped down to public dialogue? Oh, no After the last highlights, right this yes multiple public comment periods. Yeah agenda So what we say in the nice short agenda is additional public comments colon when presentations major topper For the first time the present shall this New one says first of all, I noticed that it says may rather than shall So we do have a shall Well that that would be a question is Well, we we has both right now It has a may first and it has a shall later, but I think we agreed when we first proposed this it was a shall So no, they're actually two different things in addition to the public comment period which I felt need to ask because we have the general public comment period typically held near The beginning the president may allow for comments from the public related specific agenda items after counselors have that's actually Separate from they shall do that when it's a first time issue if it's a second or third time issue This allows a may Okay, they see there's 25 people in the room and they feel like we have time It's a may but the shall was the definite part right from the agenda section. Okay, so I'll just For so we can keep moving on I'm gonna take the wording where we did when a Presentations major topics or action items just make that the last set so we repeat it. So right now we'll We'll live with repetition So we can does that make sense and then we can move. Yeah. So, okay Excuse me is the word major meant to to Elaborate on both topic and action items. We changed that wording. We're changing it to presentations New topics or action items. Maybe we always kept the word major Did we keep it? I would encourage some kind of modifier because I had suggested presentation I had suggested the language one presentation and discussion items or action items appear on the agenda for the first time the president Shall include she took she took the action item the word major away. I think you still left it in there, but No, I I took the word action out, you know in In the other it's just just a moving around. I didn't read. Yeah, so this Lin it will read when presentations. It says major topics. So let me take major Presentation and discussion items is how it's listed in the agenda When section when presentations topics or action items appear on the first time will be that it won't have an adjective Use presentation and discussion items because that's the title of the agenda section and then or action items I guess what I'm one there's sometimes that we have action items that are literally bring something up and refer and We're not even We're not going to do public comment. Yeah, I hear that and so somehow or another I believe you need to let give the president the Opportunity to decide Where in fact we need to have so so what word? Did you like the word major or? What do we do? To say it's not every single thing. So could we say when presentation and discussion items or major action items? It is a referral a major action item Coming back for Final yeah, there are times that it is For example, let me just give you an example right now on Monday night The town manager is going to give us a brief presentation of the budget There are multiple opportunities for the public to comment on The budget and rather than take time on Monday night What we're planning is only questions and Comments from the council because and at the very top of the agenda We list all of the times when we have finance committee meetings or committees of the whole That different item and what items will be discussed at those times and then of course We have a public hearing on the budget and we have a public forum on capital And we have a time when now the budget will come to the council, which will be on the third of June so opening public comment for the counts for the budget on Monday night is I Think defeating the purpose of Doing that and then later on under action items Because we never did this and to be honest with you thank heavens. We didn't We never just we never acted to automatically refer the budget to the finance committee The good news is we didn't do it and the reason it's good news is because if we had The but the council would have had to act by May 30th on the budget And there is no way that we're gonna be ready for that So what our plan is to have it come forward on on June 3rd So for action So what you're pointing to is the place where the first time is not necessarily the best time because you're gonna have multiple opportunities That's true, and then there's other times where frankly it's not a major discussion item So then made the major when we're referring it to a committee or something is not the distinction between I mean I can I can The draft agenda. Yeah, no it is it is so what what wording? It's not it's in other words. We're not even I Think we need to be clear that there's opportunities for individual topics of both discussion and presentation and discussion and action where The public will have an opportunity to comment on those particular ones What we try to do is identify those at the top of the agenda under public comment Can we leave it as worded now with a? Blue highlight for going forward to the council of or maybe green or some other color that says We should reconsider some of this wording for more nuance. That's fine Yeah, and I'm gonna lead in both sections. I'm gonna do it in both sections and I'll figure out What shows up? Green actually you can't read The greens too dark, but I'll find a color Trying to capture that nuance is what we're attempting to do. We want to give you freedom To do things that make sense And I personally think that the suggestion you made early on in the start of the council has been very helpful And it's worked well for us and the public do want to ask one other question while we're on this issue Sure It is possible It is possible that the public May want to comment on appointments and Yet appointments are in a different part of the agenda So for example this week the T Mac. I'm sorry not T Mac Ecac ec ac is coming up for appointment with the from the recommendation of OCA to the council We actually won't take that up until the section of Appointments and you've actually been doing a very nice job of at the very beginning saying if you want to comment on This topic will taking comments for that here and not here All I'm saying is right now all you suggest is the public comment is only going to be for discussion and action But in fact it maybe it should say in parentheses including appointments, but do we want to include appointments? I think that would surprise a lot of people. I personally would prefer not to but I also I don't think we should call it out for that exact reason because because I think we have it I think we have you know the freedom of speech and We're allowed to make rules about public comments and the practical reality of living in a small town Kind of thing all competing with each other there So I would hope that right now when you call out on the agenda We're gonna take public comment on this section. We're gonna take public comment on that section So your general public comment needs to be not something that's in one of those two sections. I Would just hope that we wouldn't even call appointments Maybe just leave it unsaid So I would just point out that the proposed rules before the shouts on Presentation discussion and action do say the president may allow for comments from the public related to specific agenda items after counselors I've had the opportunity to speak so we're not prohibiting Right putting it in any other section either ahead of time or during the meeting when you start finding something out But it's not a shower. It's a man And we take a two minute break so I can go to the water fountain. I guess I forgot my water I forgot my water bottle about a three minute break. Okay. I just I literally forgot my water bottle and I So this is a continuation of the Tuesday. Yeah, I turned it off This I said that as we were leaving the this is continuation of the Tuesday April 30th rules of procedure committee We took a five-minute recess and we are now back and might potentially be going till one o'clock So where we left off is Kathy did you get a chance to because you're like having to make these notes as we talk We're at public here bottom of page nine, but it's five point two is where we're starting So we're at public hearings good. Okay. No, it's so clean and we're moving quickly to public dialogue I just had two Yeah, the one was change it from 45 minutes to an hour because we've done that the second one was at the end and Where Alyssa was like, what does this mean? Can we change all public dialogue sessions shall comply with open meeting law? That would require minutes be taken and they'd be published for that's what we need to know That's what I was trying to get to the difference is will we trying to split the difference here? Or are we saying these are posted meetings? I think we wanted them as postive meetings and then that's great and then that Then I think that and I still think that sentence important so that people understand that that's what kind of meetings Those are but also that we can expect someone to take minutes at them Which the whole public dialogue is a yellow which version are you working on CS ABB? Yes, okay? I Had my own changes to Right, and so I can't see Mandy Joe's changes, but those are the two that I pointed out So what I I've just made The 45 minutes became the hour before and then the last sentence says all Public dialogue sessions come to comply with open meeting law. So tell me so those changes are now in yeah All public dialogue sessions shall comply with open meeting right? That's what I just phrase right in yeah, cool That's simple and also that they're posted to be 40 hours in advance with an agenda or topics Topics for discussion. Yeah, you know she was so are you seeing them as kind of public forms, but no presentation Well because public Yes, and no because public forum had this We talked for X and you get this is really a free forming and we found it in actually one town Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and so we put it in for two times a year, and this would be one that's definitely yellow shaded So we might want to have I Don't know what you know, you know, but but that was exactly that it's a more free flowing less Us talking and others responding. This is like Thinking yeah, this is great And as Shalini said this is definitely yellow Yes, we get credit happy yellow. Well, it's it's also something that if people hate the idea It'll be deleted, but and we had X times a year and we decided One was too few two was probably the right place to start if we were gonna do it One small request on five seven open meetings. Can we just get rid of the word further so that the charter provides for Right Right that was more of a description of yeah See see how awesome we are as opposed to we don't need that word anymore Did you leave work sessions in? It is under public participation Work sessions are down meetings They're under meetings. They're under meetings. We already did work sessions. We did a number four Where'd we put them they're a number three or three they're in three council meetings As opposed to dialogue which still counts as a council meeting But is is listed in this other section instead because it seems to make more sense to have it in this section I mean percent of the way through in theory in theory So if someone could be prepared not this minute But if someone could be prepared to explain why it is that it makes more and I'm fine with it But why it makes more sense to have our happy yellowed public dialogue be here rather than as a type of council meeting Because it's not the same as all these things that are required It's meant more for for me. It's more closely related to a forum It's more closely to a retreat for the council. I think that's why we have it there Whereas the work sessions were like retreats for counselors What I'm trying to say is yeah, so these are types of council meetings Yeah, that are like posted meetings and one type is arguably a dialogue, but I'm fine with having it over here Because I think it flows better with these kinds of things and and we actually mention it and we stripped out the thing It says under meetings. It says public our dialogue see rule 5.3, so we didn't ignore it. We so it all fits together so people can look for both kinds of places depending on where their heads at I think that makes a lot of sense Good job So you didn't like the word personalities.  No, I know I agreed with that So it's I started I didn't go ahead and edit it It's because this has been put together from so many documents with so many people with so many good intents that of course we ended up with some Duplicate wording. That's fine. No, it's just where does it best fit now given where we are. I Think when I saw your comment That if it stayed in the very first paragraph, it could disappear from everything else So like B could just say discussion should be centered on issues not use on becoming our abusive language period Sounds good, right that works. Okay, so it goes in just that very one time And let me just see whether that works for the others as well the next personalities The public comment shall focus on specific issues period Yep Yeah Because having it in the preamble so to speak I think makes it clear and I forget the other place it appeared But when I looked at it we're moving it from each of those solve the it's way down Counselor should combine their remarks and debate pending question and and period right Pending question right just we can get rid of Don't go off topic And don't shout at each other Under six three Yeah, I so say same thing just got avoid referenced personalities Because because Just it's after the word question. It's a period because because the very first paragraph the way we wrote it applies to all of us Doesn't it might I just because that's general because it's counselors residents and everyone should act this way So we're all supposed to avoid personality. So we don't have to say counselors should avoid it Residents should avoid it. Okay. I like your during council meeting change in six one You might have already flew through Kathy and accepted that Right shall not hold private conversations instead of saying in discussion. I just said during meetings so that it's a little clearer I think means the same thing. Yeah, it's just different phrase We didn't include Our most popular rule that we decided on our very first day About counselors how they address each other Um Yeah, no, I seems like it should be under maybe debate decorum But I oh, yeah, that does seem like the spot for it, doesn't it? Oh All right, all right. Yeah. Yes, here we go. Yeah, there we go. Yeah, so There's something like Shall Can we just make it last I mean I know that that it doesn't exactly float But can we just make it whatever is K now or whatever and just kind of tack it on the end because it's a new thing and The other things are still there or do we have to like really call it out. It's like its own section Section it's just which letter it should be we could put it as K and it's in a week We just suck term and we want to reorder the whole thing. Yeah, but Six three K It's gonna be for now for now Just so we have a place for it But if it seems to flow better in a different spot shall address each other by first name. Yeah Well, the only other thing I don't want to so to not make this overly complex, but Well, the president is the one who's actually saying our names We're not actually supposed to be talking about each other during as opposed to referring to each other because generally We're kind of supposed we don't generally say I mean sometimes we do we'll say well Steve said Yeah, so as long as it says president first that works Great, that's great. Perfect. I Added that because that is something that one was in fact recommended to us at some point But it's also been something that has been traditional in Amherst and so I think we should decide if we want to address it We don't have to but it has been a thing that we have used in Amherst both at town meeting and at other meetings Okay, it was in an earlier draft and we took it out because we decided when everyone at the school meeting Broke into clapping with we kind of like that. So we clearly wouldn't like it if they all Right, you clearly wouldn't like it when they start hissing you've clearly not been in a meeting like that Which I have so we thought we should just leave it out because we have other wording that says disruptive behavior Did disturb anything that disturbs our peace can be removed, but we didn't say you just you know, you've got to be I'm going to just I mean we can mark it however you want But I'm going to disagree with that completely because it is an incredible burden to put on the person who's presiding over the meeting To decide that of 25 people are snapping their fingers or three people are loudly booing that they really want to embarrass those people by Calling them out for disruptive behavior as opposed to reminding them that we don't allow for audible Things which is traditionally what the moderator did and it usually settled things right down I would I would be one that's an option one option two option one is this option two is zero I would prefer to do that with a vote. This is really important to me I don't know what our vote is, but we should take a vote Okay, so I move to include the present Shut those present shall not engage in audible demonstrations of approval or disapproval Yeah, I guess I feel like it's overkill the to include this when we already have the other piece and so if we're gonna vote Motion is to include How many vote in favor of that that would just be me Something I think the larger council should decide and if I get out voted, I'm fine with that It's a different judgment call It's a different judgment call to say you are impeding the orderly procedures of the meeting You we are now going to recess in a adjourn that that's a whole nother level of Okay, I just I will fix how I do this later. I just need some guidance on it This is the only time we've got a We're including something we disagree on but there's the option is to delete it So the option would be To not make an audible change the the first option is to not have this. I think option One might be included option two is delete So we've always done the one that got the most votes first Yeah, the option one is to say that he covers it. That's the way to say it option one says he is sufficient Option two says add an additional sentence about this because they're two different. I perceive them to be two different levels of Moderating people's behavior. I think of the second one is the nuclear option Okay, I've got it. It's weird-looking, but we'll leave it the way Yeah, the first one should be to leave it just how it is and I wanted to talk about the new Section yes, the OML or whatever the guide you you copied and pasted I would delete it again with the I know the reasoning behind it of This is the audio video recording and how you go about doing it if it's all directly taken from an OML guide Which is slightly even different than Cmr's regulations and all it's we don't usually reference Cmr We only started doing that with this document. No, I know The guide can change even more frequently than the regulations do I Don't I don't know what the law is on how people have to conduct themselves or how we have to announce Recording and all of that this that's why it says it's the guide. That's also the law Do we know the legal reference? Yes, MGL 30a section 20 f We don't So this is the plain English wording From the guide you're right, but we've used plain English wording as well And so the reason this is important I believe is because one we're under a new scenario where people who are coming to meetings have never been to meetings before It is also true that we're supposed to announce the recording at the beginning of the meeting People are supposed to tell us and people are not supposed to walk around taking photographs during the meeting and so if we Say this stuff up front then people know what the expectation is rather than the president having to call recess and say Oh, this new photographer didn't know they weren't supposed to walk around during the meeting blah blah blah blah Also, people are supposed to know when they're being recorded. So It just seems like people should know what it says is that they're not to be disruptive during a meeting There is no law that requires that actually that I'm aware of that's ever been used in Massachusetts at public meeting This one's just for audio video recording. I didn't read anything about photographs I'm I'm referring to photographers being disruptive And so the point of putting this in here is saying if you're recording a meeting you got to talk to the chair You got to make some reasonable accommodations. We've had the TV channel come and set up over here without checking in with anybody first That these are actual rules are about actual practical things that happen that has happened Channel three has set up themselves over there and that's something they need to work out You would think right with the president there. They can't just do it because it's a public meeting There are in fact some restrictions the president can place on them It's not a free-for-all. I don't know why they can't just do it if it's a public meeting Because the law says there are restrictions. It's not a free-for-all. They can still record there's restrictions on from where I Think is what Alyssa's can it has to be in right they can record It has to be announced and it has to be arranged so that it's not disruptive so as not to interfere with the meeting So how about just a member of the public with their iPhone? They're supposed to tell that the president that they're doing that Because the person next to them might not know that they're being recorded when they're talking to their neighbor There's also an issue of anybody under 18 Without sign permission of parents being in the picture. Yes Mainly it's a no surprises thing It's just a no surprises. I Include like it meant you're absolutely right Mandy Joe that I took the more user-friendly version out of the guide rather than just the Straight MGL I had missed the MGL reference. So I If people are fine with including it I am too. I wanted some of that I would change all the words chair to presiding officer if that's how we're moving towards that's a great idea thing Please do because that's just how the convention. We're trying not to use chair. Yes So that's my only request if it's staying in is substitute presiding officer for chair That would be great Six times In that paragraph, I wanted to quote it without changing But you're right using it should be so a person wants to Video tape or audio tape or you know just Video with an iPhone all they have to do is notify Right and but if they want to stand right there then she can say no you can't stand there to do it You need to go sit in the audience to do it trust me. I've had that happen We've had an amazing amount of decorum at our prep as our town council meeting so far Far more decorum than I'm used to oh And so if one we're done with that section then 6.4 is where I think I just missed a meeting or something So if we're done with because you Shading off of this and I'm not gonna do it right now so I can catch up or stay with you presiding officer goes in where chair is I was fixing formatting on option one and two And that's it on this right and I take shading off We already fixed during meetings during council meetings. We took every single yeah, and you added in the first name part Thank you 6.4 Yeah, so what happened there? Clearly that was when I was visiting someone in the hospital or something. I don't remember that conversation You don't like the Ability to appeal the president's decision is what I got gathered from your comments Correct because it's not based on either the charter. It's not a charter, but Robert's rules do allow appeal appeals of president's decisions So this sort of just tracks Robert's rules You can appeal the decision of a chair on any decision so that would also be that So I think the question is do we want the counselors to be able to override the chair or the presiding officer on The questions of order and Town meeting which doesn't follow Robert's right it follows town meetings time that these questions were the there was no appeal But there was the so moderators everything we're silent on does not mean that Robert's rules applies It doesn't mean if we don't say anything about appeal that Robert's rules means you can appeal That's that's not how our reference to Robert's rules works So if we don't say anything about appeal somebody can't say oh, but Robert's rules says I can appeal It doesn't if it doesn't say anything about appeal in here I would argue that that's not true You cannot pull Robert's rules into every conversation that isn't mentioned in our rules section 1.4 Says the council shall refer to Robert's rules or subsequent additions in all questions of parliamentary procedure and points of order Not otherwise provided for by the charter rules by law or special rules So you're saying we should but but practically speaking We are not going to go to Robert's rules for everything We don't like a current rule and here to see if we can find it to fit somewhere Well, so if it's not set forth here, then Robert's rules if it's allowed in Robert's rules I would say it would be allowed. So if we don't want it to be allowed then we should proactively say it's not Because otherwise default to the Robert's rules default. I Think it's a stretch, but yeah, I understand the point of saying it proactively one way or the other six four six four just the blue So I have just the blue You guys agreed that you wanted an appeal process. I don't agree that we want an appeal process I do understand the point of having It say one way or the other so that nobody thinks they should default to Robert's rules in the absence of discussion about the appeals process So if you just did it the way I did then some people like Mandy Joe We go and find it Robert's rules and appeal it and I would say hey We didn't talk about it at all Therefore you shouldn't be dragging out Robert's rules on everything that we don't mention in our rules Because we don't use it So that's town meaning all over if I mean those of us who've been in town meaning know how that works all the time But it's that The moderator would decide nope. That's not an issue right now or yep We're gonna go back and restate that vote or here. We're gonna read we're gonna read the motion again Because people don't know where we're at What would the president like it to say? While the president's sitting right here, I think we could ask them and Let's do a little role play here. Okay, so Things are getting a little out of hand and I say We're going to I we're going to cease discussion. Okay, and What this What the striked out part would have allowed is That The council could appeal that They would counselor would say I appeal the decision of the chair and then there's a vote by the whole council as to whether to uphold the decision or Go the opposite way They want to continue to be or whatever Yeah, but they can do that now without this section existing I mean, there's nothing stopping us under free speech laws for me to say hey, are you sure we were done with that? That's totally okay. That's not a formal appeal right, but the appeal means if say Lynn stops it without a stops debate on something because She's just not liking where it's going or it's going too long and people and the council keeps rejecting a motion to close debate and she just decides to close it and You can always say I don't agree with it But without the ability to appeal the council has no ability to say We still want to continue this despite what you want Madam president. I think I think it's strong permit strongly permissive and unlikely to be used very often, but That's exactly the reason I put it in it's protective. Yeah, I have no problem with it. I really don't I have no problem with the whole thing So then I think it just needs to be its own sentence. That's fine I had rewritten that sentence to it, you know ending the sentence where you sort of did All questions of order period and then moving the charter reference up to that and then a counselor may appeal the president's decision Because the entire council council or something or to the or may appeal the decision of the chair Moving charter section 2.2 be after all questions of order period and then the charter reference And then start a new sentence and then a new sentence that is a counselor may appeal the president's decision You might be to the council You don't want to say full council because then you're implying you need a minimum of seven votes Even if only seven people are there. Yeah, you need to figure out how to phrase that and then it needs to be Or you could say a counselor may appeal the president's Decision do you want to say formally appeal? May what does that make it clearer that you're like I'm appealing what's the wording in Robert's rules? It's I appeal the decision of the chair I may appeal the president's Decision on questions of order Because I think that's the one thing Because I think practically speaking people to the no one in this room is gonna have Robert's rules on them except you and so Appeal so when somebody says I want to do the appeal they want to know how to do it So is there a way to include that in the sentence to make it clear that that's what you're doing So it right now I have there a counselor may appeal the president's decision on questions of order to the council No other business So it's an emotion to appeal. Yeah, it would be a motion to appeal. Yeah It's worded as I feel a decision of the chair is how it is. It's not I move to appeal It's just I appeal the decision of the chair, but appeal is a real word. Yeah, it's a meaningful word It's the word you use when you make that Okay, so then I think this works right as rewritten I Would just like it to be yellow to draw attention to it that it's not in the charter and that not every somebody has other People have variations on this and it's in Robert's rules right and so we can just explain it to people to see if they Want to be fed up it is make sure that makes sense to all 13 so they know how to use it got it That'd be great And then I just added the Charter's reference to the next sentence because that's not just our rule That's actually what the Charter says in terms of participating in voting So I'm uneasy about 6.5 if we're done with 6.4 so what I understand you've done here is you just Removed the words that we had in our original interim rules But that's I don't just move them took out the middle section Yeah, you're gonna go off and you're gonna look at ethics and conflict of interest No, I know I just you know I copied and pasted that from our interim rule. I'm fine with I'm totally fine with the rewritten language I think I'm fine rules. We just said sure looks good But now that we have a chance to revisit it So should we add appeal in here somewhere that it's not actually a motion though It's not well, but a point of order is not a motion either I I think it reads just fine because almost all our rules Live with them and figure out how they work I'm just gonna item 7 if we're supposed to add the word appeal in there Just like we have a point we could get rid of the word president in the title and just say preservation of order right to speak No, I'm sorry. Where are we I was totally six point four. Oh, I'm just I thought we were Thought that's where you were referring to the appeal. Where's your where you are? No, no, no, no I thought we already fixed that no, I've moved on to section seven. Oh So taking what we learned from the appeal, I'm wondering if just like a point of order is not really a motion But it's in order of what I mean technically a point of order is not a motion Just like if you're saying an appeal is not technically a motion So can we throw an appeal do we need to throw appeal in here somewhere appeal would be After decision is made so it's not something acceptable During debate during debate per se right and that that seven one is the during Debate this is yep You can add the following motions are not debatable and on that list you could say appeal the decision of the chair Maybe that's it just seems like it should be someplace if we're if we're gonna add it that it should be in there Because otherwise it hangs by itself and isn't addressed in these yeah in these motions Don't look at it. Does Robert's consider it debate Oh, come on you have it on a thumb drive in your head Yeah, we're just wondering if we have that formal idea of an appeal if we need to toss it into the not debatable section That's all but the rest of it. I don't even have any notes Yeah Near the end of seven point one Appeal is actually normally debatable. Oh, it is debatable except if it relates to It's not debatable when it relates to indecorum or transgression of the rules of speaking or to the priority of business Or if made while an undebatable question is immediately impending pending or involved in the appeal So if you appeal the decision on whether to adjourn the motion to adjourn is not debatable You can't debate the appealing the decision to adjourn It's a weird thing So do you think we can just throw appeal in here somewhere under adjourn recess raise a question of privilege as Whatever we called it in the previous section, right? Just to show that it's a kind of thing that gets said at meetings because otherwise It doesn't make sense to me that it's only mentioned in that one section And I think if we say it's not appealable then how then we trump Robert's rules, right? Right, right, but it's debatable if we say it is is what I'm saying Robert's rule says it's debatable We can say it's not because we can have a more strict interpretation than Robert's rule But the way we just wrote that is they appeal to the full council to override the president and I assumed we would Vote on it, you know, so it wouldn't be one appeal and it stops. So it is debatable It's by its very nature debatable. It is it's by its nature. I don't think we need to I don't think we need to think just leaving it by itself under preservation of order makes sense We might want to put it as a new sentence in preservation So, you know formatting under preservation of order, maybe put an A, B and C in somewhere It's got a couple of different things now Maybe split out six four into an A, B and C So we're not talking about doing that before we give this to the council No, people if people are looking at this motion section, right? It's very exciting creative motion section that we've got in front of us This is supposed to be a reference for people to be able to figure out. Okay here. I want to do something How do I pick you got a thing to do? So I'm just a little worried that appeals not and I understand that it doesn't fit I'm just I just if I want to do that thing that we just talked about I don't know where I'm gonna find. Oh, I think we would add it between two and three appeal The decision of the chair Because this this list is not a list of any motions all motions that are allowed. It's not exhaustive, right? It's not exhaustive, but it's a list so appeal a month becomes the new three appeal the decision of the presiding officer So is that like a it would be a new three? Under when the main motion is under debate the following motions are permitted because if the presiding I see it's only You know, you can't make another main motion one one main motions under debate You have to finish that main motion But appealing the decision of the chair would be allowed during a main motion debate because you can appeal the decision of a point of order or Whether okay, so I have a journey says appeal the decision of a presiding officer a point of order raise a question Yeah, so that's so it's under there I just stuck it under there done and it's good everything renumbered beautiful So now we're connected and people can find it. That's awesome It's an endless meeting yep an endless meeting week okay And somehow I got myself on the LSS e-meeting agenda today without knowing is that all for Seven completely We at least I don't see any other markups on It could be because some people just really didn't want to read that section again No, that would be an okay reason to just let it go to so rule eight and just just so people know I mean I sent me when I looked across the 20 to 40 Council rules of order this very the least Yeah, the motion so it it should be one that we can right say good good to pretty standard The only it just has a couple of like charter reference parentheses kind of things that need to be fixed which I did So we're on eight and the first thing I really see is eight four Yeah, the MGL reference just has periods in it. Yeah, I forgot how I defined it in the definitions So I was screwing it up the periods I did the periods and then but I'm the definite I thought I'd put the definitions with periods and I didn't so which I'm really grateful for thank you It was my own fault because I I was the one being inconsistent So the first substantive thing I think is eight four. Yeah, because you already fixed the exception thing earlier So we just talked about this that's why it has a little note added based on town council 422 informal referral Tell me again where I'm going so the first part under 8.4 the very first paragraph the very first sentence It was a restructuring So the restructuring is fine. You had the question about the rule 8.1 reference and emergency measures Which I actually agree are the same thing. I was concerned that maybe someone Thought they might not be which is why we haven't listed twice. Yeah, I was just trying to getting rid of Or you could say resolutions proclamations and emergency measures Period you know just get rid of the clause about those measures subject to 8.1 I'd be okay with getting rid of that clause the emergency measures That's we just kind of got a little when I was doing it I was like why do I have that in there because that is emergency but I was afraid to delete it So if other people also think it's totally redundant, I'm totally fine with deleting it I think that's what happens when he documents evolve over time, right? So we're gonna get rid of the phrase those measures subject to 8.1 be above So the those words don't need to be there it goes from proclamations to and emergency measures 8.4 8.4 it's page where you left off. It doesn't always tell you that Except for resolutions proclamations and emergency measures Okay, so just tell me how I'm I'm accepting all these edits Accepting all of those and then deleting the phrase those measures well accepting all those edits in the first sentence in the first paragraph And deleting the phrase those measures subject to relate point one be above is an appointment this whole measure thing is killing me, but Appointments wouldn't Yeah, you make an excellent point It's also the issue of referral We're not gonna Have that on the agenda two times in a row Measures a bylaw order resolution or other vote or proceeding adopted or that the town council might adopt So it's meant for final things. So appointments From the town managers a confirmation. So it's not really an adoption But I don't know it sounds like that Yeah, but what about appointments for the council either way it sounds like it includes appointments So the question is since the current definition of measure includes appointments What do we actually want to do about appointments? Do we need to call them out because we we are calling out resolutions and proclamations as not fitting within that definition? And resolutions are technically a measure, but we've taken them out of the measure is that correct Mandy Joe I mean normally if we didn't say anything a resolution would be a measure. So we're saying our Rule is the Charter says this our rule is that resolutions and proclamations no longer meet that definition We've pulled them out of that well for discussion purposes, right? This this is just adding to rules in the Charter So pulling stuff out has will not violate the Charter, right? Yeah, it's just that we're talking about practical application of the definition of measures our rules are giving that practical definition And so we said resolutions and proclamations would be something you wouldn't need to talk about twice The point of appointments though is that since it's silent that appears that appears that it would fall under Measures, which means twice. So that's probably not what we actually want to be true So do we call out appointments and anything else like referrals in addition to resolutions and proclamations referrals aren't measures I don't think Because it's not adoption That but motions aren't necessarily measures I Hate measures. I just hate measures Motions by itself are not necessarily in a measure Because our motion to adjourn is not a measure We'll see measure is defined in the really giant definition Charter definition is the word measure shall mean any by-law order Resolution or other vote or proceeding adopted or that the town council might adopt a referrals in order referral referrals in order and appointments in order in any other town those things would count as orders, but adjourning is not an order Right, but referrals and referrals and appointments would both be considered orders again a terminology that we haven't really started using yet But that is in our Charter so add in appointments and referrals Want me to do because this that's what we're trying to decide and Darcy said what is a measure so we might want to just do measure definition up above too so we don't So people understand what we're talking about, you know in our opening and we said when we say measure we mean this except for Tell me I have right now except for resolutions proclamation and emergency measures comma the council shall discuss Regulatory council meter prone to meeting which the measure will be voted It sounds like we are potentially adding appointments and referrals to that list of so so so except for resolutions proclamations appointments and emergency appointments referrals and emergency measures It is accepting I wonder if we go the other way and can we go the other way and say by-laws Not non-emergency by-laws, but but Yes, is there a way to talk about by-laws It's I mean budget we want discussed at a meeting before we vote You know, there's a whole bunch of other things that aren't always by-laws that that are policies and all so I think for now We keep the accept until we have a better understanding of what the yeses are Yeah, okay, so I have a laundry list that says resolutions proclamations appointments referrals and emergency measures Which does leave you with a lot of other things so be a lot of other things the other way of doing this would to say which Things require Thinking about it right. That's what many Joe was trying to flip it But then it wasn't clear like is there some things are they really policy is so this this actually reads all right It doesn't look too long. So did we as a council? Decide the resolutions okay wait wait wait wait wait wait So back on that first thing now that we have several things do we want to bullet it or leave it as a text pair? I definitely do not text okay, all right then moving on if we are done with that We are moving to the complete to the informal referral I wrote this based on it being informal referral for us to discuss today for the very Three-week one okay Those two sentences on resolutions and proclamations. Yes, and the one proclamations recognizing is purely based on past experience in this community and I up for discussion I These new blues 8.4 I am brand-new brand-new never saw I personally would lean on the not putting them in because It creates a particular Rigidity that we don't have yet, and I'd rather it seems to address a problem. We haven't encountered so we will We'll encounter it. We're already getting close to encountering it. I think it should be better Placed on a referral to go out if we think that we don't have to we think the Council needs some sort of policy on these matters We I don't think as rules have the time at this point to Figure that out So if you would take if you would lift this as saying this was an initial draft I would rather it didn't just go into the ether But if you would lift it as an initial draft to the future Mandy's future list future list Because we simply didn't have enough time to it to deal with it. So we have yeah We have a lot well we have several things but I felt these were important common ways to consider it But we can consider it in a different body months from now It doesn't have to be decided now, and we'll just have to do the best we can in the meantime This was if we could decide in a hurry and we're not ready to do that and that's fine Not black holes some day list and again to make clear that they were an initial draft Mandy Joan out that we all So we're gonna delete those two, right? Yeah, so we'll just delete them from here and just move them to the someday list But not say that we voted on it Lynn what is We've been aiming for Wednesday ended the day this document to you. We're Darcy's just asking whether We have time if we could meet tomorrow morning to keep going on this that's hosted Tomorrow almost there. We can't meet tomorrow morning Early as you can meet now is Thursday At one o'clock. Okay. We're almost there. Okay. We are really close Almost there, okay, and remembering this draft is the draft that goes to the council for the first time And if one of us finds an error and it says ah gee I wish we would have caught that sooner Whatever we have time to fix it before the council votes the final time I was okay with the eight six recommended changes Because they were small Yeah, I'm okay with them also And one is one I put in a while ago The accept. Yeah, I just shortened it So nine to changing the word pass to vote sounds good We don't know Yeah, like I said, we're almost there. We were almost there. I'm okay with changing past to vote We didn't say anything about the waiver of the reading previously and so I added it in so that we could send people to that rule Yeah, I'm okay with that. I would you had the rule Reference prior to the charter reference Maybe the charter reference to the end of the first sentence and then the rule reference to the end of the second sentence I think that's exactly so maybe maybe that's what it is So on nine to the second paragraph the charter reference should go after the first sentence And then the rule reference goes after the second sentence exactly so you just move the charter section over and it's good Yeah That's right. It does look really confusing that way. Who would do that? Okay, so So charter section two point ten a is after sentence one. It's not after Sentence two. Do we keep to ten a after sentence three? Yes Yeah, okay Okay, I'm just taking the blues out. I'm doing a lot of cleaning up as I go along. Yeah, so then what roll call votes I just rephrased it and added in the CMR. I was okay with that change If others are We need to talk about this this dispute Alyssa that would be fine We can talk about it and we can we just have to know if it's if it's something we all agree on our You're gonna see abstentions abstentions. So you got the part under roll call votes and that's A nine point Five so nine point four we accepted the change right we did we're said we're okay it with nine point four so the only so nine point five is the explain it Yeah, so what Alyssa did was there are three sections at the end of number votes required where I had written Abstentions don't count in parentheses and two of them and abstention count as no votes and parentheses in one of them Alyssa removed those three Surprisingly did not combine two of the sections because they in theory would be combined if abstentions always don't count I'm and then moved abstentions don't count to the very top of number of votes required I do not believe it's consistent with the charter with the way Alyssa changed the wording So I don't believe that anywhere in the charter. It says that abstentions count as no votes. So the section 2.6 see adoption of measures Except in the event a higher quantum of vote is required by general laws or this charter the affirmative vote of a Majority of the members present is required to adopt any measure Not present and voting present and when you read that because it doesn't exclude the and it doesn't include the end voting It means you have to have a majority present not present and voting So measures not making the connection between that and abstentions. It means they're not counted You know for example, even when we so that first very long meeting of the council to elect We didn't just count the people who voted So for example, if there is a by-law measure Or even not a by-law say there's a resolution which would be a measure That requires a majority, you know That that resolution could not pass with And all 13 of us are there it could not pass with a four three Eight vote where eight people abstained four voted in favor three voted against because the eight Because it did not receive a majority of those present it could pass with a Seven what four three eight is the that's 15 people. That's wrong four three six. It could pass with seven zero six Yes, so it I don't understand the way you're counting up I don't know why you're counting abstentions because those individuals are present at the meeting their presence of the fact that they Chose not to register. Yes or no, they're still counted as one of 13 people as one of the way abstentions No, but that's how the charter is written for certain things, but that's the way she just the sentence she just read Would be interpreted that way That was a terrible mistake. It is it was done on purpose. It was not a mistake by the Charter Commission It was done on purpose saying that What okay, so you're gonna have to find a practical way to explain this because I don't Based on every other form of government service. I've done in terms of abstention That's not been so people need to understand that every freaking time We have a vote because a lot of people like to abstain on a lot of that's why it's set forth here as With the abstentions don't count on certain ones where MGL is there Majority of present and voting abstentions don't count See, I had thought appointments would be non-measures other people are thinking it's measured So that one might be inaccurate and we took at least one vote where it was six four Six against and one abstention and it was declared failed because of the you know the extension like that Yeah, it counted as against so that this is complicated. M