Okay, so I'm going to get us started. I'm going to get us started, so welcome everybody. Thank you for coming. This is a terrific turnout. I'm excited by that. As many of you probably know, I'm Andy Horowitz. I'm the assistant dean for experiential education here at the Law School, which means in addition to my day job of teaching in the criminal defense clinic, I also have oversight responsibilities for all of our experiential education programs and the ones we're going to be talking about today are our clinics and our externship programs. So we're going to do a little bit of what may feel like speed talking because the very nice thing to be able to report is over the trajectory of our history at the Law School, we have continued to build and develop experiential education programs so that we now have a very full and robust menu of these programs. So covering it in an hour is a little bit of a challenge and what I'll say before I get going is I assume what all of my colleagues who teach and direct these programs will also tell you really your best source of information for most if not all of these programs is to talk to students who are presently in them or have been in them in the past because they can obviously provide a very different perspective than those of us who teach and run the programs can. Okay, so let me start here with what's the difference when I use the word clinic, when I use the word externship which we call clinical externships to add to the confusion and then we have this third category. So boil down to its essence. A thing we call a clinic, an in-house clinic is where the attorney of record in the cases that that clinic or program are handling the attorney of record is a full-time member of our faculty. So in my criminal defense clinic I am the attorney of record on all of our cases. You folks, those who are enrolled are student attorneys and you work on these cases under my supervision. But that model creates the ability for me and those of us who teach in the in-house clinic to give you a tremendous amount of personal individual responsibility for each of these cases because this is the only job we have to shepherd you in those cases. An externship in some contrast is where you go out to some existing office. It can be a judge's chambers, it can be a corporate council office, it can be any of a whole wide array of public interest or governmental offices. And your supervisor on the cases is a lawyer who's employed by that entity. They're not a faculty member here at the law school and you work with them in that capacity. And then a component of all of those programs is a two credit seminar that's taught by a member of our faculty who sort of puts coherence around that experience and is in constant contact with the field supervisors and making sure that what's happening at the placement site is educationally sound, consistent with your educational goals, etc.  This third category, we run a program called the Veterans Disability Field Clinic. It's a bit of a hybrid between a clinic and an externship because the attorney of record is an adjunct member of our faculty. You'll meet her shortly. There she is. She'll get up and tell you a little bit more. But she works at a law firm and the program is located essentially within the confines of a law firm. So, it's a little bit of a mix of the two experiences. Okay, so, commitment. In our in-house clinics, on average, although this is really on average, because when you're doing real cases, work fluctuates, on average 20 hours a week, you get eight graded credits for it. Those clinics meet as classes for four hours a week, but that's all rolled into the eight credits. An externship program, you design your own with the externship director about how many days a week, and you can work two, three, four, or five days a week. If you're working five days a week full-time, we call that a semester in practice. Those field credits, the credits you're getting for working in the field under the supervision of some attorney or judge, who's not one of our employees, are ungraded credits, but the seminar component that's taught by a member of our faculty is a graded seminar for two credits. Again, the field clinic is sort of a hybrid. You're expected to devote 15 hours a week for six graded credits, and like the in-house clinics, you get one unified grade. We don't differentiate grading the sort of casework and the work in the classroom component. Okay, so I mentioned semester in practice. This is a relatively new experience that the faculty adopted here, where we are prepared with permission, so everybody who does externship in practice needs to meet with me and talk through their educational plan, and the sooner the better, because it has implications on other classes you're going to register for and how you're going to map out satisfying all your graduation requirements. But with permission, you can, in any of the externship programs we're going to talk about today, do it as a semester in practice, where that is the only thing you're doing that semester. We make the fieldwork and the seminar that goes along with it. We make one exception in terms of what we allow you to take on top of that, and that is the ALR class, which is our bar prep class. We figure out how to do that remotely for people who are doing a semester in practice remotely, because since you're working in this environment full-time, you don't need to be located here in Rhode Island if you've got an externship somewhere else in this country, or in fact, we've done some international ones, and you sort of Skype in, it's not literally Skype, but you participate remotely in the seminar component of the class. We have two specialized programs that are semester in practice. One is a program we run in Washington, D.C. every spring. We have a former full-time tenured faculty member who left his faculty position, in the government now in Washington, D.C., but the law school employs him to direct a program where people who are working in externships full-time in Washington, D.C. have their own specialized program and their own specialized class taught by professors a lot of it. The other one is the New York Pro Bono Scholars program. That's a program that is essentially run by the, in a certain way, run by the New York State Bar. What that program entails is that you can actually take the bar exam. It would be the New York bar exam, but the New York bar exam is UBE, Uniform Bar Exam. So that applies to lots of other states, including Moving Forward Now, Rhode Island. You take that bar exam in February of your third year, and then in March through June of your third year you're in a full-time public interest externship program. You graduate, literally you walk in May with your classmates, but you literally graduate in June when you've completed all of the requirements, and you can then immediately, if the bar has gone successfully, begin to practice law. So that's a very appealing program for a variety of folks. The externship connected to that has to be a public interest externship, and likewise this is something that if you're even remotely interested in, you can be talking to me as soon as you can, because it requires a great deal of advanced planning. Okay, so credit options you can take these programs in combination, right, so you can take a clinic and an externship, even if that externship is a semester in practice. You can take two clinics, you can take two externships within limits, you can't do semesters in practice because there is a cap on the number of clinical credits you can earn. So the credit counting is a little bit complicated, not I think worth trying to sort out collectively today, but the point is think about the fact that you can have multiples of these experiences and talk to us to get counseling to begin to plan whatever experiences you may want to have. This word advanced speaks to the fact that you can come back to a program that you already did once if the director thinks that it will continue to be a valuable educational experience for you in a somewhat more limited setting in terms of the number of credits you can earn. Okay, so this is our roster for clinics. We have the business startup clinic, criminal defense and immigration clinic we're each going to talk a little bit about our individual programs, the veterans disability field clinic and then I'm not going to read the list but this is the list of expertships that you're going to hear about. Okay, so we are going to talk now individually about these programs and first I'm going to ask Professor Hearn to talk about her program. So they have a secret seat from law school so I'll grab a standard. I'm Kate Hearn, I run the business startup clinic which is a transactional program meaning we are not doing litigation a little bit different than the other clinics you are about to hear about. So we serve small businesses, entrepreneurs and some nonprofits as well who are just getting started. So let me give you a snapshot of where we are right now. The students have just been through most of their ramp up in the first few weeks so they've done a class on nonprofits and business organizations and they've done interviewing simulations, counseling simulations, they've had an intellectual property class they're about to have a class with our intellectual property supervisor who's out in the community, I'll tell you about that in a moment and he's going to teach them how to do trademark searches, they're about to interview their clients that are their responsibility everyone has their own clients for the first time they will meet their clients and soon they'll be working on things like advising on intellectual property strategies. So do you need a trade secret, do you need a trademark, do you need a copyright, how does all that fit together? We do not do patents we don't have enough science and engineering at the moment. There we're going to be writing contracts and forming businesses and advising entities on how to get started where I expect we're going to start at least a few new nonprofit organizations this semester and put them out into the world and they will also be out in the community doing presentations so there are organizations in Rhode Island that also support entrepreneurs and we go out into the community to give presentations on similar topics. The only thing to know is that we are part of the intellectual, the USPTO US Patent and Trademark Office intellectual property clinic program so that means our clinic is part of this program and our students get to do intellectual property work in essence practice before the USPTO as part of that we have an external supervisor as well that we work with who helps on our more sophisticated trademark matters as well and the last thing to know is that there is a prerequisite for this course which you will see you do need to take the business class before so like many of these clinics there is a lot of planning involved as early on as possible and I will be around after this if anyone has any questions and you can also find me by email. Thank you. Good morning. I'm up next in the roster so I direct the criminal defense clinic so the criminal defense clinic functions essentially like a mini public defender's office I'll take as many as 10 students each semester those students will after a ramp-up period at the beginning where we do a lot of training and simulation get their own caseload on average students in the criminal defense clinic will handle five or six clients over the course of the semester what we're handling are predominantly misdemeanor criminal cases so all of our clients are people who are indigent can't afford to hire their own lawyer would otherwise generally be sent to the public defender's office or to a court-pointed council but instead come in our direction and the student is individually responsible for his or her clients the design of the program is that I have very little direct interaction with the client because part of the purpose is for you to be establishing an attorney-client relationship with the client and for the client to look to you as the lawyer not to me as the lawyer this is sort of the beauty of the luxury we have in a clinic where I have the ability to handle these cases this way in a way that a public defender with a full caseload really can't there are incredibly valuable reasons to do an externship with the public defender's office if you're interested in that field these are very different experiences what I generally encourage for people who are interested in this work specifically is to try to do both because I think there's a lot of value in both experiences what you're getting in the clinic is a very small exposure to very few cases but you're working those cases hard and individually you do the interview you investigate the case you counsel the client you negotiate with the prosecutor if the case winds up being tried which sadly very few of our cases do mostly if we have really interesting or viable defenses the prosecution relents and dismisses the case so that his reality across the country is very few misdemeanors get tried that's true in here in Rhode Island so if you're desperately looking for a trial experience this is the wrong program for you if what you're looking for is an experience with working closely with clients and building cases up through the trial preparation stage and thinking through the strategies and playing all that out in a negotiation context and appearing in court this is the program for you because that's what we do about a third of our case load generally are crimes of domestic violence of course we're representing a person accused of being violent in a domestic setting we do sometimes represent what we call complaining witnesses people who are alleged to be the victim of domestic violence who sometimes are in need of counsel and we'll do that too we do a lot of representation of people on drunk driving cases we do a lot of representation of people on breathalyzer or chemical test refusal cases that go along with the DUI those charges are civil in nature so they take us over to the Rhode Island traffic tribunal people do not have a right to appointed counsel on those cases so we serve a particularly valuable function in the clinic in representing people in that court class you need to have in order to make the schedule work so that court is not interfering with classes and vice versa you need to schedule your semester where you have three days a week where you do not have class until late afternoon or evening because the clinic is eight credits that's usually not particularly hard for students to do and there is a prerequisite you need to have taken trial advocacy before you can be in the criminal defense so I think I'll stop there but as Katie said I think we'll all be around we'll hopefully have some time for questions and you can always reach out to anyone of us so yep, next Hello I'm Debbie Gonzalez I'm the director of the immigration clinic my clinic runs very similar to Professor Horowitz clinic in that we represent indigent clients who can't afford to pay immigration proceedings we go to immigration court in Boston we also represent a lot of children and family court and in probate court as well as going to immigration in Johnston so you're really doing a lot of court this semester for example all of my students are having at least one court experience going to Boston or the family court probate court two or three so I'm somewhere between Katie and Andy in that my students already have their cases they've had their cases for about a week we really have no time for simulation in the immigration clinic it's kind of a here you go I am there I am the safety net for all of the students so it's not like you're all just swimming without your swimming zone swimming yeah we have a substantive class component so immigration isn't a prerequisite I give you all of that it's top heavy in the sense that the beginning of the semester is a lot of immigration law it's learning your case it's meeting with your client it's interviewing the client preparing for a trial you're doing all of the things a lawyer does in an immigration case so interviewing and counseling is the theory of your case in some instances the theory may have already been developed by the student before you because these cases go on for years and years but every student towards the mid of the semester will get one new consultation that they'll do with a new client wherein as a class we decide whether or not we're taking that case or not so everybody will have the opportunity to meet with the client to make that assessment if you don't we also do community service work which requires, I require every student to sign up for at least one time where we're going to progress the Latino and partner up with them and we do individual consultations to members of the community we do do a simulation for the consultations but personally I have no idea what the consultations are going to look like because these are people just showing in the door looking for some advice and that's what we're there to do this semester I'm super excited because we finally got an agreement with the police office where we'll be doing consultations with the public defender so in Rhode Island the public defender's office does not have an attorney who does immigration work and so we have now become kind of their immigration attorney not in that we're going to represent people but in that we will be able to advise the public defender what the best course of action is going to be on the case so I've talked about the substantive class real client representation and community service I think I'm going to leave it there I unfortunately have to go because I have class in Providence at 2 but you can email me it's Dean Gonzales at rwu.edu if not I'm sure Lori or at least somebody can get you in touch with me my name is Dana Wiener I'm going to talk about the hairpin it's really difficult to get out of these chairs it's actually very difficult yeah so I teach the veterans disability field clinic we are based at the law firm of Chisholm Chippen and Propatrick in downtown Providence and we are an appellate law firm so it's a little bit unique and we represent clients from all over the country with regard to their veterans disability appeals so when veterans are denied their disability benefits we work on the appeal to try to get those denials reversed and so the clinic is really unique because students come in from the beginning we assign them a case so they work on a real case of a real client from the firm they spend the first few weeks getting to know the client getting to know the file so within I would say two weeks they know pretty much everything about this person and the years of struggle that they've gone through to get their benefits and the first half of the semester we work on general CAFA about veterans disability some deference stuff some admin law and we work on a memorandum of law that they'll actually present to VA to their Office of General Counsel VA will look at it and then the clinic student will participate in a settlement conference with VA to see if we can get this client's case settled and that's something that I'll supervise the clinic student actually sort of takes the lead on and I really don't do anything except sit in and listen the second half of the semester will be more of the oral advocacy part of the pellet work and so the student will work on an oral argument and the final in the mock oral argument where the judges are other attorneys after the firm and so it's a really nice way to get some experience with the market that's something you're interested in so our goals are really twofold to get the veterans experience have some real clients get the law firm experience and then also just you know the basic skills and what it's like to work in a law firm to gain those oral advocacy skills the writing skills and just the basic learning skills I'm around if you have any questions of course after and I've got emails while I'm located in Providence so I'm not here on campus I'm available right now I'll manage it okay we're going to shift gears now to start talking about our clinical externship programs I get the stereo so so just reiterating so everything you've heard about you're directly supervised by a faculty member in the externship program we send you out there you're supervised by a lawyer or judge in the field but we keep you tethered to the law school or a seminar that meets once a week so just generally in the externship program when you apply and you submit a resume sometimes we'll have you submit a writing sample or a cover letter your materials are very important because those are the materials that we're going to send to the office so you should work hard on those materials before you submit them because they're the ones that will be going out so basically you'll apply to the program we'll accept you to the program and then each director will meet with you individually to figure out where we're going to place you and we make those placements so you'll come to us we'll talk through with you the various options and then we'll decide where we're sending your materials and we'll always send them to one place that you agree on and then you'll interview and the placement has the right of you know they can take you or refuse you if they don't want you we'll find you another place no one almost hardly ever anybody turned down by the one place that we send them to so our seminars are all different some of them are sort of substantive and doctrinal in the substantive area some of them are more general for instance the public interest seminar that I teach because you're all doing different kinds of law okay everything is offered most things are offered in the fall and the spring near pro bono scholars and the dc semester practice program are only offered in the spring as is the environmental and land use is only in the spring we also offer two programs in the summer so corporate council and public interest and public interest also includes prosecution okay but I'll go through this in a little more detail but we're going to come up one by one I think that David Gibbs is next hi I'm David Gibbs I run the corporate council program basically with a flip side of katia hern's program her students are working with people with you know problems who are ventures the corporate council we're basically working with very large companies that are national and global and you're working in an in-house office so I'm not your supervisor and one of the most interesting things about that is you have an attorney-client relationship with the company with which you're working I'm not their attorney so confidentiality is very important I can help you your fellow students can help you but it has to be at a level where the client's confidentiality is always preserved because they're not their attorneys and so you'll work with these in-house lawyers how do I do this next okay so these are some tell her clap for them the probability says you can't be wrong all the time these are some of the companies we work with not every company not every semester we do it a little differently we send your resume typically to three companies but we meet we find out what you're most interested in and we try to do matching and then you interview and as Lori Barron said we've never had a problem placing people and people typically get their first choice and we give the companies their first choice people are generally what type of things do people do they do things that relate to their company so we have someone who does a semester in practice at the Red Sox this semester and she's working on a sweep stakes issue where they're giving away a benefit but not to everybody we had people who were working on cross border problems where Canada and the U.S. have different employment policies what does the company do and so some of the problems relate to the nature of the company Swarovski we haven't had too many jewelry problems but they make a lot of other things and so it's just whatever the cat drags in whatever problem the company has they come and these are some of our companies we do semester in practice the Red Sox is a semester in practice we had somebody at Nestle's in New Jersey last spring and that you need to plan ahead oh what areas do we work on I think I kind of covered that basically everything I can't tell you what you're going to do we sent someone to a Moran shipping who was interested in maritime law they had a hurricane last year in their offices and they were doing all this landlord tenant with force majeure because that was the problem the company had three, four, five days it's like everyone else I do want to make a pitch for business most of you will have four to six careers in your legal career more lawyers do business than any other area of the law and so you're at a school that has great programs and I would recommend public interest clinic and externship take full advantage and take two if you have questions call me see me I'll be around yep you think I need to grab it I can do it next button there you go I'm Julia Wyman I direct the marine affairs institute but here I also direct environmental externship program so for those of you that think of me as marine affairs we do all ocean and coastal the environmental and land use externship program is to really look at some of the broader environmental issues that are facing us and some land use issues like all of the other programs you can do two, three, four, five days in your placement for this externship we have four placements and they're very different so we have the conservation law foundation which is here in Providence the Providence city solicitors office the AG's environmental unit and the department of environmental management here in Rhode Island all of the issues that potentially can come across your plate are very different and depend on the semester so if you're interested in the externship program right before you apply you can come meet with me and talk about some of the cases that may be brought in some of those different placements during your time there important things to note so a lot of these placements do have heavy litigation so if you're interested in being an environmental litigator this is a good place for you to explore that depending on the placement and depending on where they're at in terms of litigation you may get the opportunity to really spend some time in court or you may be doing more discovery and background research for them we do offer this program only in the spring so that's definitely something to think about especially those of you that are 2Ls in the room if you are thinking about doing a joint degree program not just the marine affairs joint degree program here you're going to want to think heavily about and you're considering this program you want to think strongly about doing it during your second year of law school because it may be a little bit easier to balance with a tactic schedule in your third year some of the issues you might come across in this externship clean water issues energy issues, oil and gas issues zoning regulations where should we put this building should we allow these people to build this building air quality issues really runs the gamut we do have a prerequisite for this environmental law natural resources ocean and coast law or land use if you're really interested in the program and you haven't taken any of those courses I'm willing to make exception but you need to sort of make an argument to me on that during the seminar we also don't necessarily have access to your attorney client privilege in your placement we're going to focus a lot on environmental and administrative law issues in general so we'll be doing a little bit one on one on those and then also talking about how the environmental and land use field functions and the kinds of issues that will regularly come up in the field I think that that's it I will also be around so happy to answer any questions that you guys have okay so I'm going to talk next about the judicial externship program which is taught by D. Nielnowski I taught it for many years so I'm comfortable talking about it so this is the program that many 2Ls will want to do in the spring of their 2L a year and just by a show of hands how many of you are 2Ls in here and we have some 3Ls so this fall 3Ls are applying only for the right now this application period is only for the spring okay and then in the spring 2Ls will be applying for all of next year so it will be applying to the fall and the spring of next year so there are slots open for 3Ls in the spring in not every program but many of them but the judicial externship program is one that is really heavily populated by spring 2Ls so we have placements with all of the judges in Rhode Island at all levels of courts so we have students with Judge Thompson and Judge Salia who are the first circuit court of appeals which is as good as it gets unless you're at the U.S. Supreme Court and those students will go to Boston to hear oral arguments although the offices are located here we have students in federal district court with federal magistrates and even the court and even immigration court so this really is great for students who think they might want a clerk after they graduate because you'll see what it's like to work in judicial chambers to write opinions to sit still for that long see if that's something that appeals to you it's also great for students who don't want a clerk but they want the experience you want to work on your research and writing, you want to know how judges think but you think you don't want a clerk for two hours it is the real world and judges care about things like grades and law review and your writing but not all of the judges care about those things so you don't select yourself out because we have many judges who say I don't want the kids at the top of the class I want to work with somebody who might never clerk and try to bring them along and other judges are like give me the top ten and that's all I want so don't select yourself out the seminar is taught by Justice Flaherty on the Red Island Supreme Court and Chief Judge Will Smith who is the Chief Judge of the Federal District Court so it is not you took this class, right? so they are they are comedy so they are lively and fun and it really is a great chance to be in a room with ten to fifteen students and have complete access to these judges it's a great experience the judges that you work with your clerks they'll give you the materials for a case and say you tell me how you think this should come out and you write the opinion they might not follow they might not do what you said they should do but they'll at least give you that opportunity so this is a great program that students should take advantage of next program is the one that I teach in the fall and the spring and Susie Harrington Steppen teaches this in the summer and this is this is the public interest externship and I have students all over doing all different kinds of things we have merged the prosecution placements into this program for this year so that you know there are public defender placements civil legal services placements prosecution placements the sky's the limit obviously our seminar can't focus on doctrine and substance because we're all doing completely different things we have students who do a semester of practice and go other places and zoom into class so this semester I have somebody these are two 3Ls we're both graduating in December I've got somebody doing innocence work in Florida just literally move down there doesn't know anybody and he's got a case that's his and it's his job to convince the lawyers in the office that they should take this case either that there's newly discovered evidence or some constitutional issue that happened below we've got a student in Mississippi who's doing death penalty cases and he missed class one night because he literally had to travel like 10 hours to meet with a client on death row really heavy stuff and I've got a student who's in Suffolk County New York as a district attorney and she's on the feet every day she's got a student practice rule and it's a place she'd like to work when she gets out of here so they zoom into the class so really the sky's the limit for what you want to do I love working with students to find new placements and since our semester of practice program started maybe 3-4 years ago my favorite thing is to sort of start meeting with you in the spring of your 2L year and figure out where you're going to go so I've got a bunch of students who've got a bunch of interviews and we're figuring it out for the spring but we started last spring so okay so that's public interest I think we'll turn it back over to you so we have a video yes so let me just give a very brief introduction and then he's going to magically appear by video so as I said he lives and works in DC he's actually a lawyer at FERC the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission but what he does is assist students in finding placements in DC although a lot of that is also on the student to work collaboratively to find placements but a whole host of placements government non-profit trade organizations and once you're enrolled in the program you're living and working in DC and you're in a two credit seminar that's taught physically in DC by professors live so help me in these this is a big one I am working in DC program and I'm speaking to you from my office at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission work for the last five years I have been in the office of the enforcement before that I was at the faculty for 15 years but before DC where I started my career brought me back and I'm excited to share this city and these experiences when they come down the program is actually very unique in that it offers you the opportunity to work 40 hours a week full time for a government agency or a non-profit and that gives our program a great advantage because so many other externship programs are just two or three days a week for local students and so we've had a lot of success placing students in programs that they really want to be in that's also because Washington DC actually government is here but so are all the public interest groups non-profits and associations that work on national policy issues you also have the opportunity to do a wide variety of work if you're interested in impact litigation if you're interested in research if you're interested in advocacy if you're interested in government regulation there are huge opportunities to do different kinds of work and I think that also makes this program appealing but rest assured I will always make the time for the students whether it's later in the day or in the evening to talk to you before you come here or while you're here to help you have a great experience the other things I wanted just to tell you a little bit about the course in some respects it's similar to the other externship courses run by the school now we focus on the kinds of skills that students need to succeed their externships learning how to ask for and receive feedback whether it's learning how to write for a professional setting and adapt your writing to the setting of agency or group that grant but I also focus the course on the kind of problem solving which after all is what lawyers do in almost every context to the DC setting and I do that both for working with things that the students are working on and also by bringing in the staff here who are mid or late career to talk about particular issues or problems that they were faced with early in their career and the mix of legal analysis policy and in fact just personal relationships and how they were able to work out difficult issues that they found at some point in their career the last thing I would add is that DC is a very vibrant city just in the last 10 or 15 years restaurants and neighborhoods that were sort of no walk zones are now filled with cafes there are lots of housing opportunities particularly because the metro system is really great you can live cheaper in Virginia or Maryland if you want or you can find a group house in DC it's a very transient place and so there are always opportunities for folks to find housing for a couple of months I invite you to call me separately at my office line here in Washington or write to me if you have some interest in the program we'd be happy to set aside some time to see if the issues you have match the program and I look forward to speaking with many of you in the future so once again it's very nice to meet you sorry I can't be there in person but I love the school and I'm still close to the faculty and the staff there I just really would like this program to really meet the needs of the school and the students so please don't hesitate to reach out it's much better than when he's moving as a dancer what I'll say in addition to what Professor Zlatnik just said about that program and this program we've been saying it about every program but if you think about a semester in practice it's particularly important to plan early really early so if you're interested in DC you ought to be talking to him and to me basically now and same thing with the New York Parbono Scholars program so as I said earlier what I didn't say is Eliza Vorenberg who is in the Feinstein Center the teacher, the director of this program it runs in the spring semester from March to June because in February of that semester you're taking the bar exam which it is administered in New York you have to take it in New York but it's a uniformed bar exam and then you do 12 weeks of full time an externship in a public interest setting at an approved placement we will work with you to try and find placements because there are so many because this is run in New York there are many many offices in New York that are now set up to have people in this time frame working full time but there is no requirement that you do it in New York in fact we've had students not do it in New York we had one student do it in the New Island Center for Justice there's no requirement that you be in New York the only connection really to New York is it's the UBE in New York that you wind up taking in February and you get yourself admitted in New York but you can then take that UBE result elsewhere begin planning early and you need to talk to me I think that's about it in terms of that program okay so yes David I just have one comment and Katie can correct me BizDorg is very important prerequisite for our her clinic and my externship another course that's very important is contract drafting and transactions because that's what you do in either program the Red Sox have told us don't send us anybody who hasn't taken that so you might want to think about that if you have an interest in the clinic or in the externship and it's also something that lawyers do a lot great class we offered every semester it really is quite foundational to anybody who thinks that at some point in their career and I agree with what David said that's probably many of you will work in any kind of business or transactional so okay so we have some time for questions and answers let me just say what you really ought to be doing in addition to the questions you certainly can ask now is reach out to the directors reach out to the students the Feinstein Center is really our hub of planning those of you who know that you're really focused on business and transactional work these are the folks you should be talking to about planning and Lori mentioned this but let me sort of highlight it we do two application periods each year one in the fall one in the spring the application period in the fall the one that's coming now is just for the spring that immediately follows but really really importantly particularly to the two L's and one L's who are already starting to think the application period in the spring is for the entirety of the following year right because we want you to plan we have a process that enables you to plan be processing that and let's take questions if people haven't and let me just also add so the deadline is October 8th we will let you know sometime around like around the 19th of October at the latest so that you will know in time to register for classes and figure out the schedule and all of that so any questions can we access this PowerPoint somehow can we post it I will send it to everyone great I should also say there are evaluations in the Feinstein Center of anyone who's done an externship anywhere that's given us permission to have it so for the public interest program and for the prosecution program and for several semesters in practice so that can also be a good way to sort of get a sense of what people are doing in their externships there was a comment there was a maximum of 20 credits that can be used towards RJD for either clinic or externship or field practice so my question is I don't know let's see will this also meet some of the requirements that the law school puts on us for example like skill credits we need so many courses for skill credits the answer to that is yes the field work credits and the clinic credits count toward that requirement and we should add we also have a cap you can only do two semesters of experiential ed you're guaranteed one as long as you apply by the spring of your two-year we encourage you to do two and I think something like 75% of our students do two of these experiences but you can't do anything any other questions okay so you know just to end by addressing that you want to plan early and you want to reach out to students and to those of us in very chronic further issues you want to talk about thanks, thanks for coming


Let's try to deal with the China question, since it was the question at lunch, it seems to be on quite a lot of people's minds. Mr. Vadrin, do you think that Enrico kind of laid it out in fairly stark terms? I mean, do you think Europe really does have to choose somehow between the US and China, or is this a false choice, do you think? Well, ideally, Europe shouldn't have to choose. Europe should have its own position, and according to the subjects, it would agree or not with the United States, agree or not with China, it could even play a constructive role on the new rules of globalization that need to be set up a little more. But it is supposed that Europe has its own position, so if it can't have its own own position, it will indeed be condemned to choose or to submit, in terms of technology. So it is very important that Europeans manage to define a common vision, it is supposed to have the same evaluation, which is not obvious, of the problem that China represents. Is it a problem, is it a threat, is it an opportunity, is it just a partnership that is bigger than the others? Already, there is not quite an agreement on the level of evaluation and diagnostics. If we came to that, if we had some common positions and some priorities as a European, it is obvious that almost every day in London, we would find on this particular point a real power that would need to be used intelligently. Because when we talk about power, a theme that is finally developed, it is a reasonable power, of course, rational, etc. And it starts with an effort between Europeans on the exact evaluation, which is not yet done. Yes, exactly. Would others like to come in on this question? In the 10 points highlighted by Kevin lunchtime, from Xi Jinping's perspective, the 10th is our priority as Westerners and in particular as Europeans. And I would say as Europeans, because our strength, and we are not any longer on this priority of the soft power and the 21st century being the era or the beginning of the era of law, but we are wired in legal terms, we are wired in institutional terms, which means that I absolutely agree with Kevin, the position of China is to infuse new values to the existing framework, not to shake it as Russia has tried to do sometimes, but in the end sharing the core issues and bringing into a legal, Western approach, rational context, concepts like harmony. Okay, you know, we have to understand this and to just be very clear about what this means. It's not just a nice word put into, and taking just one example. So I think that for us, this idea of power, and it was very interesting, this idea that this privacy or ownership of data, we bet on the citizens. We have millions or billions of allies that are concerned that the data. We need to be consequent to be meant to have to get the consequences of what we mean and stand by them. And just on this issue of China, counter the subtle idea because when they establish other institutions, okay, you see that, but when they come and they infuse different concepts, values, principles in the existing institutions, this is not perceived. Right. Poker, please. Steve, I think if we were to accept this binary choice that we had, if we were to accept that we have to choose the one side or the other, we would already have lost. We would have lost our whatever aspiration of some form, any form of strategic autonomy or European sovereignty or whatever you call it. And therefore, I think we simply must not accept it and lay out. And I think we have good reasons and good arguments and good instruments to lay out that there are alternatives. Of course, China is a competitor. But the question is how do you compete? Do you simply geopolitize and militarize competition? Or do we say it is competition over a whole range of policy issues which includes that you cooperate on some issues where you have a common interest, climate change, for example, but you compete over technology or you compete over social models. And I think the European Commission got it right in that strategic paper which it issued earlier that year and which probably doesn't have 100% consensus in Europe, but a very, very wide-ranging consensus where they actually split sort of the policy fields and said, yes, China is an economic partner. China is a partner on some global affairs like working on climate change. China is also a technological competitor, no doubts about it. And what probably didn't go down too well in Beijing, China is a systemic rival when it comes to issues of governance. I think saying that clearly and making sure that being a systemic rival would not keep us from cooperating on climate change. I mean, why should we sort of give up, cooperate on issues of mankind because we have a competition about models of governance? That is the way Europe has to go if it wants to assert itself. And my last point, we are not alone here.  And I guess there are a lot of actors here. I mean, it's young people who would like to have Huawei and Apple or Apple with Chinese characteristics. It's also a lot of elites who would like to have American arms with Chinese financing if that was possible. I mean, no one wants to choose. So why should we be pushed into that binary choice just by the US and China?  And I think there's this great risk of creating something that doesn't have to be there. And if you're thinking about climate change, I mean, China is now responsible for 40% of CO2. I mean, people in Europe could heat their coffee by blowing on it. And it would make almost no difference to the state of the planet. So dealing with China on these things, India matters terribly. Enrico, sorry, please. Just one point about the fact that this binary choice in my thought is the consequence of 28 Brexit. Interesting. In case of 28 Brexit, each country has only a binary choice to be a colony of the US or a colony of China. Being together, we can avoid the choice because we can be at the same level on many issues. We can take the leadership of some of these issues. And we have to change our narrative on Europe on that because our narrative is still on some issues, the same narrative of the 60s and the 70s, the Cold War narrative about peace, stability, and so on. That is no more, I think, the narrative with which you can deal with young people and the new generation. I have to clearly tell them there are issues where we can take the leadership only if we are united. If not, it's impossible to take this leadership. And at the end of the day, the choice for all the different member states will be to be closer to the one or to other one. This is why at the end of the day, I think our choice is a very political choice. And it's a political choice in terms of delivery because if we are not able to deliver on some of these issues, it's quite impossible. For instance, on many of these issues, delivery means also the way in which we decided to take decisions. For instance, I am in that period, I know it's very difficult to say, I know it's very divisive, but we can't continue thinking that we have on all the different issues to be at 28 or at 27. I am a big fan of considering that Two Speeds Europe was a success on many issues. Europe and Schengen, two successes, two Two Speeds Europe. So it is not a blasphemy to say Two Speeds Europe on some subject. But we have to be very, very concrete, effective in saying that we need delivery. If we continue to be two orthodox, saying that we can't have Two Speeds Europe because it is heterodox, at the end of the day, citizens will not be happy of the decisions and they will decide to vote for Le Pen or for Salvino or whatever. So it's a problem of delivery, of how to be effective in our decisions. In some way, some decisions, we have to take these decisions out of the treaties. I know it's a sort of blasphemy, but ESM was a decision taken outside the treaties because it was necessary in one night to take a decision and the European Union needs to give the citizens the idea that we can protect them because we are able to decide and not just to wait because of treaties, difficulties, unanimous decisions and so on and so forth. Well, blasphemy is good here, I think. I'd actually want to ask Artemis a question, if I may, and then Michael, I'll come to you. Artem, do you think Russia's kind of knew what we call this, what Kevin called the strategic condominium with China? Is this tactical or strategic? I mean, is it out of current sense of weakness or is it some... I talked to Alexander Dugan the other day, believe it or not, a sort of slightly mad theorist of Eurasia and I can't tell how seriously anyone takes this in Russia. So do you think maybe Russia bends too far toward China and is it tactical or is it a long-term partnership, do you think? Look, I guess in this kind of condominium only you, the Europeans, you believe in this condominium. We don't, since we are much closer to China and even us, we don't know China to be good predictors, to have really adequate forecasts. If you look, you and us, the Russians, we overlooked all dramatic changes through the post-Second World War history of China. It shows how we understand and this perfect report, this perfect sketch of Prime Minister Rod shows to what extent of understanding of China we are. Not upon any other country we can imagine such a speech, brilliant speech at a launch. Because generally the grand lines of the French Foreign Policy or German or Austrian or even Russian, it shows that our understanding of China is still tremendous, less official. We talk about binary choice but whether Chinese do choose in the same way. They have India, they have Southeast Asia, they have many times more developed relations with the United States, they have the African policy, they've been overlooked by everyone, by the Europeans, by the Russians, by the Americans and I guess our point of view upon the China here from Europe or from Moscow, I guess for the Chinese, it's still the same Europe. It's inadequate and I guess here about condemnation, where it's condemnation? In Central Asia, in the Caucasus, over Mongolia, I see no space for this condemnation. Relations with China, to my mind, are going to be much more complex, not European or Euro-Atlantic style. It's one point and another, we still have to understand what is driving force for the Chinese economic growth and when and because of what it can stop, potentially. And since we overlooked so many changes in Chinese developments, I guess probably we also overlooked the margins, the barriers, the constraints of this economic growth and if there are some of these constraints, it ruins the whole picture, this very frightening picture of nowadays China's relations with the rest of the world. Thank you, Michael. I'm a bit puzzled by this, I think you've said it twice now, what do you call the binary choice of the decision on Brexit between China on the one hand and America on the other? Because if you came to London or anywhere in the United Kingdom and you said that was your view of what Brexit was about, they'd look at you in total confusion. Because if that was the question, the British would vote for neither. The whole point about Brexit was to give ourselves more room for maneuvering without being tied to major blocs. So I think if you say that this is the question that Europe has got to take into account, I would say to you that is not a valid question. We genuinely, somebody said to me, why have you always appeared to be anti-European? My answer has always been, we're not anti-European, we're part of Europe. We've always been part of Europe, our history is European. We are anti-overdone bureaucracy. And if you want to see in the world the best example I can think of, overdone bureaucracy, you find it in Brussels. And the feeling in Britain was that to be told you could do certain things, you could eat certain things, or you could dress in a certain way was a decision for Europe, was something that got under their skin. When you say why did they vote the way they did, in a sense they were blaming the British politicians for not talking to them. It's only now after the referendum is over we're discovering had we gone down and talked to them, you might have discovered a lot of these things earlier. Precisely. Henry, do you want to answer quickly? No, just to say that my point is not that this is the discussion about the referendum. My point is that will be the consequence in ten years time. In ten years time, with separation, with split of Europe, each country in ten years time, not today, will have only to decide whether to be an American colony or a Chinese colony, with the split of the European Union. Well, that is my point. Maybe I'm wrong. I can't see with the evolution, demographic, in terms of economic power, the possibility of any of the European country to be able to deal alone with China or with the US. The only possibility to stand all together. And this is why I think for the UK it would be a problem. Not today, I'm sure, and I know very well that the debate was on other issues. No, that's fine. I mean, this is all understood. Michael, you have explained the divide between the elite and the people. I mean, what you are saying on the Brussels being the big bureaucratic, it's what the elite in your country has been. This has been the anthem of your elite. So, I mean, I think that you as elite, you should revise what you have been telling and what this idea of not having the right, I mean, being forbidden to have coffee or tea bags, not coffee. I mean, mind you, not coffee, tea bags or this kind of thing. Hey, this is not the reality. We are not going to discuss bureaucracy in Brussels and its successes. But I think that there you have, hey, honestly, you as elites, you have to look at yourself. It's not that we do not have to do it in other countries, but frankly, on the Brexit issue, I had to say that. Okay. Well done. Let's actually not keep going too much on Brexit because I mean, we're in a kind of interesting moment where things might get resolved nicely. I suspect my own guess is there'll be a technical extension and for not very long, because one of the things quite clear to me is Boris Johnson would like it done before he has an election, which he also needs. But, you know, everybody's got their own views. And Minister Bedrin makes his apologies. He had an appointment he couldn't avoid, and we got started a bit late. So I just wanted to express to you from him his deep regrets for having to leave early. So we still have about half an hour. I'd like to, given Poland, I'd love to talk a little bit about Hungary, Poland, rule of law. You know, this is one of the great, perhaps it's tied to the migration issue. It's tied to the identity issue. It's tied to lots of things. But can Europe at 28, 27, can Europe deal with this question? What are the instruments? Can it do better or is it better to somehow rethink the idea of what European federalism is to allow for more sovereignty, which might have kept Britain in the European Union had it been done earlier? So would anyone like to deal with this question? Michael, why don't you start? I can only speak for myself. But I voted to leave because after 40 years of being told that Europe was going to reform, I got fed up with waiting for it. But had somebody come along with a proper reform proposed, which would have given less power to Brussels and more power to the individual nations and their peoples, I would probably have supported that. The goal used to speak of the Europe de Patrie, the Europe des Nations. I was a fervent European in those days. I am a fan of Jacques Delors' brand federation des Tannations, because I think it was a good synthesis. My point, and I continue on the blasphemy mood, my point is that, for instance, on migrations and in the relationship with Visigrad countries, frankly speaking, we can't think we will have any positive and concrete effective solution having Orban at the table with the veto right. This is my point. If someone is convincing on this point, I would be more than happy. But I think it's very complicated. So, for instance, on these topics, we need to have another treaty, a treaty outside of EU treaties signed by willing countries without Hungary or without Poland. I don't know the other Visigrad countries position. We need the idea to have a treaty with tools, with relocation framework, with meanings, and with rules, and with the majority rule to decide. Until now, we had evolutions on this topic, and at the end of the day, they are unaffected. They are not working. My point is that if we continue allowing those countries to stop the decisions of the others, it will be a problem for us and it will be an European Union non-effective. So, it is just one example. Just to tell you that at the end of the day, I think it's the only way to be very assertive and to be also clear with them. I know that there's a big difference between the funding members of the European Union and Visigrad countries in terms of demographics. Funding members of the European Union, we used to be around 10% of our population is from an immigrant origin, around 10%. Less, more, but it is around 10%. If I'm not wrong, in Poland, Hungary, these figures are 99 versus 1%. And the 1% is not coming from Africa or from Latin America, it's coming from the rest of Central Europe. So, at the end of the day, there's a very big point of starting that is so different. This is why I say we can't wait, we have to have new tools and we have to decide. So, this new treaty for me is one of the urgencies of this new political religion. It is worth saying, by the way, that Poland has many more immigrants than you imagined, but most of them are Ukrainian. So, Anna and then Volker. Honestly, I agree with Enrico and I think that the only way forward is a geography variable. So, distinct groupings in distinct issues. The problem we have here is not migration. I think that what you were referring is more the principles and values that are enshrined in Article 2 of the treaty. And in particular, let me say independence of the justice of the judiciary system, independence of justice. And this is something that we have to rethink. And maybe, you know what, diminish the area where we have judicial cooperation. This is something that we will have to address with open eyes. I think that the days have changed and you know what, it could be done. We could go shrinking and it should not be perceived. And I think that we can explain it to our population. So, absolutely clear in new areas, we can address the 28. And Schengen and the Euro are good examples of things that Schengen is clear. It was thought outside and then it was incorporated. And this incorporation probably should be revisited. And we have to do it. We have to do it. This is my perspective because the rule of law is also changing because the law is changing. I mean, we have to defend it in this context of China of just weakening of the value of the law of other instruments. International treaties. Paris is not legally binding. This is a new system. And we need to understand that incorporation and I'm a died-in-the-wool lawyer, European continental lawyer. But, you know, we have to be realistic. And in terms of European Union, let's rethink certain sensitive areas. Okay, Poland, you don't want, okay, then you don't. You are not in the Schengen area. You are not in the cooperation, in the judicial cooperation. And we negotiate and we decide the alternative. Do these reforms to have an independent justice? Okay, Volcker, please. Well, three short points. One I think on Europe being so unreformable, that's a little bit of a myth which probably helped to win the Brexit referendum in Britain. But I think the British Prime Minister at that time, David Cameron, was the one who proved that you can renegotiate a couple of important issues. Like the question of social benefits to immigrants and their children who live in other countries. Cameron, he had a sound argument and he got the consensus from the others. So things could be changed and that is what happens. I mean, it's a living body and the European Union has always worked in progress and things do change. And the bureaucracy in Brussels is not much bigger than that of a big city in Europe, actually. I remember a Canadian friend once coming and saying, well, we are so envious that you are having something like Brussels because it means that your nation states don't have to have all this trade bureaucracy 27 or 28 times. So I guess you would have a little bit more bureaucracy in Britain after Brexit because you need your own trade negotiators now, rather than sourcing that out to Brussels, who is doing it in the common European interest. But more importantly, I think on the other issues. Either we actually have a sort of flexible geography or we have qualified majority voting on more things, including foreign policy. And I think both would be a way to overcome this embarrassing situation that in the U.N. or in the Human Rights Council, we have a statement read by one European Council for 26 or for 27 out of 28. The U.K. is always with the majority here. And then of Hungary or Greece saying, oh, we cannot share that because it is against China or so. So why not have qualitative majority voting also on foreign policy issues? I think that would be the way forward. And sort of the dialectic conclusion of that is, I mean, we complain so much about people saying that elites don't listen to them. But here we have something, if we would go forward with a stronger foreign policy, where the majority of the people in Europe, and we know that from opinion polls all over the place, would be with us. So one thing where people want more integration is foreign policy and security policy. They don't want it in cultural policies. They don't want it in social policies necessarily. But foreign policy, security, they do all want more integrated Europe. Great. I would like, I've got one more question, and I'd like to go then to the audience. So please think of some questions you might have for our panel. Archon, did you... Just a comment a little bit upon Poland. I guess I'll tell you just a short anecdote. A friend of mine from Italy once, it was before 2004. He said, look, it was a talk between two Italians. Look, the polls going to join EU, and another one he commented. Yeah, the polls are such Russians are those who write in Latin alphabet. And you should understand the difference between these parts of Europe. They don't feel responsibility for the migrants that are not theirs. They don't feel responsibility for these regions. They never had in common with the Middle East or Africa. It's as simple as that. Do believe me, I can tell this because my children, they're 50% Polish. Inside the countries, they say in the West, in absolutely Russian meaning, in your part of Europe, most of you from the Western part of Europe. That is why they need much more time to get used to this solidarity. Probably Germany has not so much in common with Middle East as France, as Italy as Britain, but you already got used to this kind of sovereignty, to this kind of solidarity and joint commoner's responsibility. The polls they didn't use. But at the same time, they consider as ours, them, those who come from, even from the Caucasus, from Central Asia, since it's not something alien, they simply have their family histories, family memory, that okay, we had a Polish origin governor in Georgia. By the way, he's a great grandson. He's a professor of our university, Professor Baranowski. So it's another history. You could not force them. I'm not such a specialist. No, no, no. It's good. And also, let me just add one sentence. That's, I mean, and you don't mind if I say this, under Soviet Union, they were under a bell jar for 70 years. There was no immigration and emigration under the Soviet Union from Poland. I mean, maybe you could emigrate a bitch, but there was no immigration much. So it's all a bit of a shock, I think. And it does feed people who want to play on fears of identity and what's happening to the family and all the rest of it.


Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE! Covering Cisco Live 2020. Brought to you by Cisco and its ecosystem partners. Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage here in Barcelona, Spain for Cisco Live 2020. I'm John Furrier, my co-student and man, we are in the DevNet zone where all the action is. It's theCUBE's third year covering where DevNet has been evolving into the centerpiece of Cisco's strategy and all the sessions are here. We've got a great guest, Meg Diaz, Product Marketing for Cisco with Umbrella. There's a takeover going on here, the DevNet, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. So tell us about Umbrella, because that's a new brand, Open DNS, kind of convert, what's the story with Umbrella? Give us the update. Sure, so Umbrella was first really developed and introduced in the market in 2012 under the Open DNS company. We were acquired by Cisco in 2015 and rebranded it to Cisco Umbrella. So we've taken the same great product that we've had for years and just continued to develop and add to it. And what's the main features now? Is it the same product has been integrated in? Because everything's becoming API based here. We're seeing that. What's the tweak, is it security? What's the main linkage with the Cisco? Yeah, so Umbrella really started off providing DNS layer security. So it was often an added layer or foundational layer that customers would use to reduce the amount of malware, make sure that their users were protected anywhere that they were connecting to the internet. And so we've taken that, it's always been developed as an open platform. And we've continued to add additional APIs to it and a lot of additional security features too. So beyond just DNS, we now have a full secure web gateway, cloud-delivered firewall, CASB capabilities. So there's been a lot of new capabilities that we've built into the product.  We've been in the DevNet zone for three years, as John said, we've gone to DevNet Create. That API economy is something that is so important and that's what so many people, I mean, we've seen just huge crowds all week. Help us understand how those APIs fit into Cisco and Cisco Umbrella. Sure, so when you look at, there's a number of APIs that we've built into Umbrella. So to give you some examples, we have a device network device API to make it easy to actually integrate different network devices that you have to Umbrella. So how do you get that traffic very easily from any device to our cloud platform? So that's one example. We've rebuilt a lot of integrations, but that allows you to help build any additional integrations that you want. We have a reporting API that helps you to automate some of the reporting, send it and integrate it with other systems that you have. And then another example, even with all of the intelligence behind Umbrella, we make it available through our Investigate API. So we see a lot of organizations use that to enrich their SAM or Thread Intelligence platform. So being able to take all of the data that you have within Umbrella and make sure that it can be integrated in the right ways. Any new features you guys announcing in Umbrella that we should know about here this week? Yes, one of the big ones that we've been talking about at our booth and in some of the sessions is with Any Connect. So Any Connect has always been really big for a lot of Cisco customers to protect roaming users. And we've had the ability to enable a DNS module as part of that. So that enables them to, even when users are off the VPN, their VPN isn't even turned on, they're still getting protection from Umbrella. And we've taken that and we've also enabled them to leverage our secure gateway functionality when users are roaming as well.  Exactly. That's what you're talking about. And they might not be actually connected to the VPN so their traffic isn't actually being protected. So they might be connecting directly to the internet. That's where when they have Umbrella enabled there, they can still get the right protection for those users. May, talk about the dynamics going on with injecting hacks and DNS because this has always been kind of a, you've always been, people have always been chasing this because URLs, they run the internet. We know some URLs could look like PayPal or this or the other bank. And so it becomes kind of a URL DNS management challenge. This is something that's been fundamental for security. What are some of the things that are going on that people should pay attention to? Sure. So I think that there's a few different aspects of that that we're really delivering on today. So first of all, when it comes to just people trying to get you to click on a link that looks like PayPal, but it's actually not. So there's a number of different methods that we're using in the product to detect that. So one of the things is we'll look at the way that the domain is actually written. A lot of times you can see some, we look at the structure of the wording and sometimes you can see little characters or letters or numbers that are off and we can detect that that's happening. But then we also look at the infrastructure behind the domain. So we look at where is that domain actually hosted? So what's the IP address? What other activity do we see happening on that IP address? Because you can really learn a lot. We saw a PayPal domain that was supposedly a UK PayPal domain, but it was actually hosted on a bulletproof hosting site which no legitimate PayPal account would be or domain would be hosted on. So things like that that we're able to detect. I saw something talked about online puny code. Is this what we're talking about here or is this a different topic? A little bit different. But yeah, there's also, yeah, that could be embedded within puny code, things like that. But this is just some of our fundamental what we look at when we're determining if a domain is malicious or not. Okay, could you walk us through a little bit? The demo's going on, we've got the takeover going on right now. What's the umbrella presence here in the DevNet zone and throughout Cisco Live? Yeah, so there's a lot of different areas that we are. So we have Lacha Berna, the cafe. We have all of our demo stations. We have theater presentations, pretty much running every 15 minutes so you can learn more on a number of different topics. We have the DevNet takeover. We have a number of breakout sessions that are happening. So there's a lot of activity happening around Cisco Live. Well, Cisco's got a huge technical crowd here. Obviously they're network geeks. They all know DNS. What are some of the conversations you guys are having? What are some of the cool things that are, because they don't have programming and they're getting into different formats. How is the DNS fitting into that? I've saw some cool demos. What are some of the cool tech conversations? Yeah, I think a lot of times it's still, we're seeing more of an uptake in people understanding that DNS can be used to actually deliver security as well. So I think those are some of the conversations still educating people about how they can add additional layers of security to their environment and DNS being really one of them. I think what we're also seeing is just because with umbrella we're going beyond just DNS and really taking multiple security services, bringing them into a single cloud platform and that's a lot of the conversation that we're having and that's where you're seeing the market going. So organizations starting to look at how does that fit into their environment? How can they start to architect their network differently for the future and how to wrap security in there? So a lot of the conversations we're having are around that as well. It's interesting the whole dynamic internet conversation because it's interesting because DNS is, you got to resolve, you got name servers, you got your resolute to the destination URL and you load the page or app. As you start getting into more of the dynamic situations the software is programming it. So it's interesting to see how DNS evolves. You guys are leading the forefront on that. What's your view on that? How do you guys see that evolving as you got ACI, intent-based networking, app dynamics over the top kind of programming down? Is DNS fit into all that? How does that all work? Definitely, I think DNS continues to be a foundational part of how the internet works and I don't see that really changing. I think some of the things that we've been seeing are even the different ways that you see attackers leveraging DNS. You're seeing DNS tunneling, for example, being one of the kind of, I wouldn't say newer, but it's one of the types of techniques that nation states are using at times when they're actually embedding data into DNS to exfiltrate it. So things like that we're seeing come into play so trying to use DNS in different ways from the attack side. But I think when you look at the overall network and all of that, it is a really important and kind of core part of the security side. Yeah, what's interesting is that the international thing, too, as you mentioned, hosting, a lot of these hosting sites are outside of North America, outside of Europe, they're in these countries where, hey, it's suspect. And some of the foreign characters get interesting because that's not ASCII, it's Unicode, and you got all kinds of things going on. So it's a complex, not that easy, is it? No, we have a lot of very, very smart doctors working on the backend on the engineering side to really look at that. And one of the things that we tried to do even from the beginning was take a different approach to security where we're not just looking strictly at the file hash or just the basic information, but seeing how can you take data science principles and apply them to security in new ways to uncover attacks even before they launch. I got to say, one of the sessions, I was walking around the hall, the couple of the main kind of clusters of people was obviously the big panoramic WebEx room was pretty popular, it looks pretty cool. But the IoT security section was packed. As you get more devices out there, they're just internet addresses, too, and you got destinies, you got URLs with DNS there, too. So you have now that edge piece. That's a big security perimeter. I mean, a security surface area, I should say. That's popular, people are interested in this. Yes, and that's one of the big use cases that we've even seen with umbrella is you have hospitals who have all of these IoT devices that are in their patients and it's really scary to think about where they could be connecting on the internet. And that's one of the things that we've seen with umbrella is because we're providing some of that security at the DNS layer, you don't need to have an agent or something on those devices. When they're on the network, it's protected by umbrella. So that is one of the use cases that we see. I got to ask you because you came from the acquisition OpenDN as I know David the founder of Donum when he started, great company, great success. Congratulations to the whole team there. As you guys come into Cisco, what's it like?  What's it been like at Cisco with the OpenDN? Now umbrella brand, same product with some tweaks. What's it like?   And I think one of the things that's been really exciting is the fact that we have been able to leverage a lot of the Cisco technology, right? We've embedded, you know, amp technology, threat grid technology, things that ultimately because we're, you know, sharing those resources and embedding them, it's going to make the products more secure, it's going to allow us to share more information between products. And I think just the, you know, the investment, I think Cisco sees where the future is going and, you know, how important the cloud is, you know, not only from just a, the way that businesses work, but from the security perspective. So there's been a lot of investment in it. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming on, chair, and your insight. I got to ask you kind of an industry question because you've been on, again, the startup now Cisco. Most normal people, like DNS, I know what a URL is, but they know security.  When they ask you what's going on, what do you say to them? How do you explain what you do and your vision of how you see the world evolving? Sure, I think for a lot of people, I mean, I've been in security now for a while. When I started, it was really, it was still all the compliance conversation and you were still educating a lot of people on security. But now my grandma knows about it and she'll ask me questions. So I think it has become so much more mainstream. And in simplest terms, I just talked to people about the fact that we are making sure that wherever users are connecting to the internet, they're doing it securely. No matter what application they're trying to access, we can help secure that. And so that's kind of the basic. And be careful what you click on. The emails you get. Well, you don't know what's in there. Exactly. Well, thanks for coming on. Great to have you on. Thanks for the insight. Cisco Umbrella, it's taking over DevNet. DevNet zone is packed. It just gets bigger every year. And this is where people are learning. It's very community driven. A lot of education, a lot of great content. If you're starting out or you're more experienced, software certifications all here inside the queue. Coverage of Barcelona. We'll be right back after this short break.