Are all documents turned in yes We'll call the regular Meeting tortor 18th regular meeting us comma council order Pat. Would you call the roll please Bowman? D-Berg Eberg Doyle Manny excused moody Perez Ports excused Schultz Stefan Devin Akron Teven Akron Vanderweal Longham and Warner Winninger excused 13 present orms present alderman van Akron your honor I move that the minutes of the previous meeting and the special meeting be approved as entered on the record It's been moved in second at minutes of the last special meeting in the previous council meeting be approved under discussion You're done all in favor Hosed motion carry Pledge allegiance. I guess I was chosen for that this evening Before we start this evening, I would like to wish everyone a Happy holiday and a safe holiday. This will be our last meeting till after Well, January 7th will be our next meeting. So we want to have a happy and safe holiday We have one hearing this evening and asked to amend the text of the Zoting ordinance to permit indoor commercial Entertainment as a conditional use with the UI urban industrial district in the conditional use regulation All interested parties wishing to be heard Sir if you'll come up the microphone. Give us your name address My name is Mark Michelson. I represent Dragon Carp Inc. On behalf of the officers and directors of that company I'd like to make a statement Mr. Mayor members of the council Operations of indoor commercial entertainment facilities of many sorts is currently managed to the zoning ordinance Which provides permits only for conditional uses which have been approved There are no locations or zoning classifications in which there is a permit by right or special use regulations Indoor commercial entertainment facilities may not operate anywhere in the city without conditional use permits approved by the city Planning Commission Ornates is currently allowed conditional use permits for indoor commercial entertainment facilities in the following zoning classifications with neighborhood office suburban office Neighborhood commercial suburban commercial urban commercial Central commercial and suburban industrial classifications The addition of the urban industrial district to the list of conditional use classifications Should not be detrimental to the city's ability to manage its plans for land use through zoning classifications The extent and character of commercial and industrial growth in its neighborhoods or districts Or the safety of its citizens of visitors We can appreciate the city's desire to manage its business growth for each of the above reasons There certainly may be instances where any given location is inappropriate for certain types or perhaps any type of indoor recreational activity Including any of the office commercial or industrial classifications We believe that the city however should have the additional discretion to welcome indoor commercial entertainment businesses In safe small or large-scale industrially zoned urban industrially zoned locations And for this reason that we support the Planning Commission's recommendation to the above tax amendment Sir, could I have the name of your company again? Dragon Carp, Incorporated Carp, C-A-R-P Thank you. Thank you Anyone else wishing to be heard Anyone else wishing to be heard Anyone else wishing to be heard Alderman Van Ackert Move that the hearing be closed Moved and seconded hearing be closed under discussion hearing none all in favor Opposed Emotion carried Confirmation of appointments steve. This was brought in at the last regular meeting To the honorable members of the council Pursuant to the requirements of section 7.30 of the wisconsin statutes You're with submit for your approval the list of nominations for election inspectors And signed by the mayor and I believe all the alderman received copies of The list of about four pages of the election inspector Thank you. There is a question on one of them. Um, that was addressed me like that I don't know if you thought that that are not one of the candidates on in ward eight Alderman are allowed to work at the voting polls. We have Val Schultz that works with the voting poll also as long as they're not on the ballot So we do have a couple of alderman that are our poll workers But this gentleman would be on a ballot display Then he won't be working but he has this is a two-year appointment So he won't be on the he won't be able to work in april or or february But he is on as a appointed poll worker for the next two years. Okay That's that. Thank you. Alderman van Ackeren those can be confirmed Thank you your honor move that the appointments be approved Move to the second appointments be approved under discussion Hearing none all in favor Opposed motion carried public forum pan. No one Alderman van Ackeren Your honor we um on the consent agenda, but excuse me alderman van Ackeren alderman warner I thank you. I'm sorry. Uh alderman van Ackeren. We wanted to pull 1717 forward which deals with rezoning Or amending the zoning ordinance I would say Okay alderman warner I thank your honor Our own number 3670203 Uh is amending the text of the zoning ordinance to allow indoor commercial entertainment as a conditional use in an urban industrial district And on that I would move that we accept and file the report of officer and pass the ordinance Okay Move to the second accept and file the our own pass to general ordinance under discussion Under discussion your honor This will allow the plan commission to review and recommend to the council The same type of conditional use that it could recommend in a suburban industrial district It could conditional use is not automatically allowed And would be subject to approval of the plan commission and the common council This change will allow us to be more flexible As the use of our city's older industrial areas change. Thank you Other discussion pat, would you call the roll please? D-Berg Eberg Doyle Moody Perez Schultz Stefan D. Van Akron T. Van Akron Vander wheel Longerman Warner Bowman Dirtine eyes Motion carried Thank you for coming this evening Now alderman van Ackeren consent agenda Thank you your honor on the consent agenda before I get started I did talk to a few people this weekend and they wanted just or wanted me to remind everybody make sure we speak into the mics People at home or still having trouble hearing So if you got a clip to you make sure you don't turn away from it things like that just a reminder On the consent agenda, I ask that all ROs be accepted and filed all committee reports be accepted and adopted All resolutions and substitute resolutions be put upon their passage Moved in second at all ROs be accepted and filed our C's be accepted and adopted Resolutions and substitute resolutions be put upon their passage under discussion alderman Doyle Thank you your honor. I'd like to pull document 1816 on the hiring freeze So I have the opportunity to vote no on that Okay And I'd like to comment when appropriate. Go ahead. Thank you I do agree with the first whereas that the common council is facing a reduction in state shared revenue And we have to take some action However, I have two concerns First, I don't believe the freeze method should be continued A freeze does control spending and I don't question that fact But for three years our only response to budget problems has been to freeze department spending and to freeze hiring This method will eventually starve our departments and it keeps the city from quickly replacing essential vacancies Right now the mayor cannot replace a critical position like the housing inspector because of the freeze We also live in a time of rapid change and I don't like the idea that the city cannot create new positions The freeze method is a budget control is a public admission that the common council Does not have either a plan or the resolve to deal with the budget issues Why does the common council use the freeze method? I sense that the council wants to avoid making unpopular decisions. So instead passes them on to the mayor and department heads There is a second way to solve budget problems. It's called planning Instead of letting chance or fate Determine what jobs are cut. We should prioritize city services and identify those that are essential Or required by law Mayor shram and the city leadership gave us an excellent questionnaire to help us with these decisions Unfortunately, the ideas were not brought to the common council for discussion A second concern that I have with the budget process is that most alderman do not have a voice in the decisions The only decision that most of the sixteen alderman make is to vote yes or no to the final budget on november 25th We were elected to make these decisions, but we are not making them In my three years on the council, I can't recall one worthwhile discussion about the budget that involved the whole council We cannot build a new police station implement a flood control plan and maintain services All in the face of declining revenues by going from freeze to freeze every year Eventually we will need a plan and we will have to make major changes Next year would be a good time to start. Thank you. Thank you alderman dole Alderman warner 1816 We have okay On this document your honor, I actually wanted some clarification and one of my concerns In the last two be it further resolves The second from land states that no no city positions shall be created during the calendar year of 2003 and I do support the idea of of Passing this resolution I think it might be a little bit of a change unless we can get clarification. I know I talked to mike hudson. He Perhaps could could do this for me in the second one It says that said policies shall be reviewed at the december 15th 2003 meeting of the common council Unless reorganization results in reduction of existing positions or by approval Of three-fourths of the common council. I guess my concern is I want to make sure that it's understood That this allows us By a three-fourth vote of the common council to fill positions in case of an emergency And some of my concerns in that are you never really know what's going on in the world nowadays And I think we need to make sure there is a mechanism in case of an emergency or other extreme threat or incident That would allow additional positions if needed for the health safety or welfare of our city We cannot predict what may happen in the world today or tomorrow With terrorism threats that exist in the unsettled climate throughout the world I think we should allow should make sure we we allow a process to deal with Unforeseen needs promptly in the interest of public health and safety I think by passing an ordinance like this This makes a statement that the city does not intend to expand its workforce And in so doing tends to hold a line on its employee cost So I think it's a wise thing to do and as long as we have a three-fourth majority If it's needed, it's probably Going to be passed So I would hopefully support it and I would like clarification on that before I offer a change of the wise thanks I probably better respond to Jerry's questions too But first of all, uh, Mike in answer to your questions The intent was to allow the council to add a position If need be create a new position with the three-quarter, uh, vote of the council So that is, uh, it would be, uh, your your subject to your approval a new position And then, uh, Jerry in response to your questions, um Uh, how would I phrase this maybe hiring free isn't isn't the proper terminology I think we're accomplishing exactly what what you would like accomplished What what we're suggesting in this is that every position when it becomes vacant due to a retirement or equipped Uh, rather than the HR director and salary and grievance rubber stamping the replacement of that position It will be reviewed by by the salary and grievance committee With, uh, with a report coming to full council Recommending either that position be, uh, filled or not filled with notification to the mayor Uh, and the importance of that is when we do budgets, uh, in september 85 percent of the budget I believe is, uh, salaries and fringe benefits And it's awfully difficult to make substantial cuts in a budget when you're can only use 15 percent of the budget when you're not touching Touching manpower and I think this document enables us to take a look at that And it also informs each and every one of you that every time you replace a position There's going to be cost ramifications down the line, especially in in 2004 when We don't know what's going to happen with shared revenues So jerry, I think we're accomplishing what you want. Perhaps the word hiring freeze isn't proper terminology What we're doing is looking at every position like we've never done before In an attempt to either eliminate or consolidate and we have been doing that very recently Two management positions one in plan department And one in public works were recently combined with other positions and we were able to eliminate two positions Now those are the type of things we're looking at doing Thank you Okay, all of them Berg did you want a same issue? Okay, thank you Again, this did come out of budget policy survey as a recommendation. Clearly. This is not a remedy that stands by itself This won't resolve At two point some billion dollars of state, uh, shortfall normally take care of the shortfall we're going to experience in the city But I think this came about as a result of a number of things The original document had the word hiring freeze. Uh, that had I think an overlay that had a connotation So this document was developed and I think with thanks to mike, uh, mayor shram And I think reality testing by the department heads, uh, uh, tom holton chief, uh, kirk and zeier took good looks at this To see how it would play on an ongoing kind of basis And I think in many ways this clarifies the practice That was in place in many of the departments and makes a policy We need to note that uh reduction in our municipal workforce has been going on for a long long time The city's area has expanded since 1970 by 50 percent from 9.64 square miles To 14.46 square miles at the same time we've experienced reductions in our workforce For example, since 1970 in public works the public works department was reduced by 28 percent Much due to technology and I think much due to the kind of cooperation that we enjoy From all levels of our employees from the men and women who work for the city For the representatives and from our management team that have the sense of mission that allow Things like this to happen. So I guess I encourage your support to follow through and pass this document. Thank you. Thank you All the materials on the same document. Yes, sir From comments made so far this evening. It sounds like the goals of this Resolution can be accomplished without the resolution, but anyway, I'm gonna uh read my comments that I prepared for I am going to vote no on this at this point in time As I have said stated several times. I think a hiring freeze is the last thing you do We need to look at how we manage people Do we need the levels of management in all departments that we currently have Are the efficiencies and cost savings to be gained by reorganizing all departments Before we do things that will negatively affect how work is done and services provided By not filling positions. We need to look at all other possibilities of reducing costs This proposal has a provision for exceptions to the freeze, but as we saw in the past Council is reluctant to allow exceptions and rightly so But some positions simply cannot be left vacant We saw this when the city planner retired and the mayor and this council refused to fill it quickly The department suffered and I believe the city was hurt by not filling a position for several months Some losses are not visible if dollars are lost or gained you can show that on a spreadsheet But if things are not getting done or developers or customers are frustrated and not being taken care of That does not show up on a spreadsheet On by the way, I think the people that we have in city development today are very excellent people This is not meant to be a criticism of them. It's a criticism of Past actions that this council did or did not take The strategic fiscal plan committee has in committee rc310203 This is the budget policy formulation survey results that we all submitted I think this committee needs to meet soon and do some serious strategic fiscal planning And make recommendations to this council This hiring freeze as proposed hiring freeze may be one of those recommendations But a lot of other things must be done first If we can freeze wages obtain better cost sharing of health care costs Which are currently greater than four million dollars annually. We may not need a hiring freeze This is what strategic fiscal planning is all about We need from this committee a long range plan with goals and objectives Not a piecemeal approach taken the easiest and least painful route Along with strategic planning and prioritizing of spending The finance committee approved an interdepartmental transfer for the fire department for national and state conference $2,751 For the purpose of executed executive training relating to EMS issues The justification for it is This is essential due to the complexity of EMS issues in the fire service And the possible provision of ambulance services This is just wrong wrong wrong at this point in time If we are sincere in our stated goal of running a contract with orange cross And the ambulance service staying with them and controlling and prioritizing our spending Thank you Alderman vander wheel same issue. Yeah, same issue. Thank you, your honor. I have a question for mike harts You had said that three-quarter vote would create a new position. Would it also fill a vacant position? Trying to recall The intent was that all all positions would be reviewed by salary and grievance A normal the normal filling of a position The rc would come from committee to council and and that would be accepted and file or would appear on the consent agenda If there were no objections by the mayor or salary grievance But you would there would be a document generated and it would appear on the agenda In this case as a on the consent agenda So every position replacement would be there for you to peruse and and discuss Correct in that case would be a simple majority I just add I concur with What mike harts just indicated the Reference of the three-quarter vote, although it's not clear in the document. I think to make it clearer that Phrase and less reorganization results in reduction of existing positions or by approval by three-quarter vote of the council should be in the In the be it further resolved just above where it's located That's what it's addressing is no new city positions be created during calendar year 2003 Unless reorganization results in reduction of existing positions or by approval three-quarter vote of the council Where it is right now it makes it a little ambiguous it says That said policies shall be reviewed at the end of the year Unless reorganization results in reduction of existing positions It really fits better in the paragraph before that but I agree with Mr. Hutz that This doesn't provide that to fill new positions. You'd need a three-quarter vote It's just to create new positions to fill existing positions would be a majority vote as I see it Okay Okay, all of them and then really All of them in Warner I thank your honor And I would like to see that change me too. I think it should be moved ahead if that's something we can do If we need to amend it on the floor make a motion I make a motion to amend it As Steve stated moving that up to The second last job be it further resolved after after the 2003 I guess I prefer to use the word moratorium when I when I think about this because I think that's what it is It delays the hiring or replacement of a new city employee I think this allows for a thorough examination as mike stated Of any position opening that we have And I think that the department head the salarine grievance committee and a mayor will review each opening And the salarine grievance committee will bring a recommendation to the common council if a position needs to be filled We do not allow public works to proceed with a project without approval Finance cannot simply decide to spend money without council approval Public protection and safety cannot order stop signs installed without council approval We should not be filling openings automatically without council approval That's the way I feel We do not know what the next budget year will bring and we must be cautious in the decisions we make throughout the year I think this will help us do that. I support the concept of this document and I would ask that everyone support it. Thank you We have a motion before us in a second. Excuse me all the way moody. Okay on amendment or on a It says I would I would hope so No one can assure you what the state's going to do but I would hope so They have a better handle on it. We know where we're going with that at that time Okay, we have a motion in a second before us on amendment all in favor of the amendment All right posed Motion carried now. We're on a document I need no motion alderman warner I would make them make a motion that we pass Where's the number now rc? Number 216 0203 as amended Moved and seconded under discussion Hearing none Do we need a roll call on that? I think we should. What do you call the roll please? This is uh Accepting a doting in port of committee passing the substitute resolution as amended Eberg Doyle moody Perez Schultz Stefan Devin Akron Teevin Akron Vanderwill Wongelman Warner Valman D. Burry Ten eyes three no's Motion carried Okay, now everything else left in a consent agenda from 18 one through 18 21 Alderman Vanderwill Thank you, Your Honor. I've uh, I'd like to pull 18 18 I just have a question. How much does the city pay for the uh, 2003 high school graduation party? Alderman Schultz Oh michael I believe it was it used to be three thousand minutes Starting to go down I think every year they're gonna go down something They were talking about Did you want a separate vote on that one? Okay all in favor of that would be a roll call Money all right That would you call the roll please moody Perez Schultz Stefan Devin Akron Teevin Akron Vanderwill Wongelman Warner Bowman D. Burr E. Burr Doyle 11 eyes two no's Motion carried Is there any other discussion on a consent agenda? Hearing none would you call the roll please Doyle Moody Perez Schultz Stefan Devin Akron Teevin Akron Vanderwill Wongelman Warner Bowman D. Burr E. Burr 13 eyes Motion carried 1822 to be referred 1823 will lie over 1824 through 30 to be referred 1831 by Alderman T. Van Akron Authorizing a temporary extension of the marina management agreement Alderman Van Akron Your honor I would ask for a suspension of the rules please Move Is there any objections? That's my job to ask that Who made the second? Who made the second? I'm not sure who made the second Alderman Schultz Is there any objections to suspension? The reason being we'll explain anyways just for everybody This contract I believe is up at December 31st And all the language hasn't been worked out yet between the lawyers and And the current persons were just asking for an extension of the old contract until the new ones in place Yes hearing no objections I'll uh ask that the resolution be put upon its passage Move to second the resolution be put upon its passage under discussion Hearing none would you please call her all Perez Schultz Stefan Devin Akron Teevin Akron Vanderwill Wongelman Warner Bowman D-Berg E-Berg Doyle Moody Thirteen eyes Motion carried 1832 will go to risk management 1833 Threw 35 will lie over 1836 through 42 to be referred 1843 Sheboygan Transit Commission 1844 by Alderman T. Van Akron Amending municipal code to provide for the first meeting in January 2003 to be held on Tuesday January 7th 2003 Alderman Van Akron Hold on your seats now I'd like to suspend the rules again Been moved in second for suspension. Is there objections to suspension? Hearing none proceed again. The reason for suspension is we're asking for the first meeting in January There are several of us that are not going to be here and as you see tonight We're already two or three short as we saw on Thursday. We were a few short We're afraid that if three or four of us are all out of town that night and one or two are sick sick We would not have a quorum That's the reason we're asking to move the That night so hearing that I would move that the Ordinance be put upon its passage Move to second that ordinance be put upon its passage again. This is to move the meeting this is The sixth for the inauguration in Madison. Hopefully other alderman will join us down there for that that evening or department heads Okay, if there's no other discussion pat, would you call the roll Schultz Stefan Devin Akron T. Van Akron Vander wheel Wongerman Warner Bowman D. Bird E. Bird Doyle Moody Perez Motion carried 1725 Resolution by alderman Schultz Perez and Stefan transferring funds to establish estimated revenue and appropriation for room tax Receipts to be paid to the Chamber of Commerce Alderman Perez or Schultz Schultz place chair Make motion resolution be put upon its passage Can you take the next one too well certainly The next one's a resolution to authorize the transfer funds to provide monies to establish estimated revenue and appropriation for capital Outlay items in the 2003 budget make a motion that resolution be put upon its passage also Moved in second at both resolutions be put upon your passage under discussion Caring on would you call the roll Stefan Devin Akron T. Van Akron Vander wheel Wongerman Warner Bowman D. Bird E. Bird Doyle Moody Perez Excuse me port status I got the wrong name Perez is right Schultz Hi 13 Motion carried Okay I'm caught up 1724 by alderman D. Van Akron Wongerman Warner Winninger and Perez authorizing authorizing across the board increases for eligible non-representative employees alderman ben akron I moved that Coming forward to be accepted in that Moved in second at the resolution be put upon its passage under discussion alderman bowman Thank you your honor the question I've got on this is is this only for one year this year? Is this uh Going to be a affirmative ongoing thing Head or it might whoever One year one year One year one year Alderman Schultz Thank you your honor I kind of painted myself in the corner. I guess with my comments earlier this evening about a Possible wage freeze And here's a proposal to increase the non reps pay Which I Sort of agree with but after making my comments if I'm not going to be talking on both sides of my mouth I guess I have to kind of back up my Comments that I made earlier with a proposed wage freeze and I will vote against this Somehow reluctantly, but I I think I have to in order to substantiate my comments previous comments. Thank you If there's another discussion Pat, would you call the roll please divan akron? Tivan akron Vanderwheel Wongerman Warner Bowman Dberg Eber Doyle Moody Perez Schultz Stefan Twelve eyes one no motion carry 1745 RC by public protection of safety recommending filing documents submitted submitting a communication from mary zephanitis Relative to an accident at north 10th street in wisconsin avenue and passing the attached ordinance alderman orner Thank you, your honor. I make a motion we accept and file the report of committee and pass the attached ordinance Move it in second accept and adopt drc and pass the general ordinance under discussion Under discussion your honor this ordinance will help alleviate a vision problem at the intersection of north 10th street in wisconsin avenue Because of the lay of the land in this area when vehicles are parked Within the legal limits limits applied to all intersections It is often difficult for motorists to see oncoming traffic Without pulling partway out into the intersection It is impractical to install stop signs on what has become a major travel route since the opening of north 10th street to two-way traffic We hope and expect that this will help solve the vision problem and not delay the safe flow of traffic Your public protection safety committee recommends passage. Thank you Alderman chill center discussion Thank you, your honor parking is kind of a at a premium in this whole Downtown area which includes stent in wisconsin down there. I drove through there twice and I even stopped this afternoon and looked at it and then traffic and I don't see a problem there I think we should be Encouraging movement of traffic. I've stated that before in the past when Stop signs have been proposed and parking restricted We need to encourage Traffic and traffic brings customers I just don't see a problem with parking down there and to limit parking by This is going to be four to six parking spaces that are going to be eliminated 60 feet on either side I just don't see the hazard there that we're going to gain that much or gain anything from Restricting parking there. So I'm going to vote against this also Alderman Burke Thank you, your honor I managed this apartment building right on Kenton Wisconsin and most of my residents there are all senior citizens Most of moaq and I drive in and out of that alley every day three four times And when the traffic is coming from the south past the back of the Post office by the time they hit that alley down there. They're going 35 40 45 miles an hour I think what they should do is get an officer down there with With the radar or something and check that speed down there for one thing, but Eliminating the parking on those two corners. I think it's going to help the matter here. Thank you. Thank you The other Alderman Burke Thank you. I think it's a point of further comment the area is also up for redevelopment And I think we will be looking at That increasing the residential density in that area. I think there'll be a lot more traffic on that On that particular street. So I think when I went to the committee meeting I I had the same concerns, but I think in looking at the development potential for that area I think that we'll likely end up doing this in the future anyway as we increase the housing density in that area Okay, thank you Alderman Warner I think your honor this actually removes I believe it's at the most two parking stations On each side of the street going to the south or to the north on each side of wisconsin avenue And you already have for 15 feet from the intersection that you have to be back. That's what I meant by the standard intersection parking setbacks We we opened up parking on 7th street and on 9th street and there's a lot of open stalls there A lot of them aren't being used because obviously you can park down here and not pay right now And that's okay except for the fact that we had two accidents there in the last I want to say six months. That could be off a month or two in each direction And it's a real concern for the people that live in that neighborhood. There's a lot of Older drivers that use this intersection to up wisconsin avenue and because of the way wisconsin avenue comes down to a stop And I used to live on wisconsin avenue. So I knew it very well, although There were none of these buildings there when I lived there And the way the hill comes down From behind a post office on 10th street You're just coming into a kettle there and it does create a vision problem And if you're there when those cars are parked up to the corner, you can see it as evident as This can be and and we don't want to stop cars But putting a stop sign in and we want to let traffic flow, but this is something that hopefully will work So I asked for your support If there's no other discussion, would you call the roll please? T van Akron Vander wheel Longerman Warner Bowman D Berg Eberg Doyle Moody Perez Schultz Stefan Devin Akron 11 eyes two nose motion carried 1736 rc by public works recommending amending the municipal code relating to sewer Sewers and sewage disposal alderman burg Thank you, and I moved to file a report of committee and pass the general ordinance You want to take the next one too and also then General ordinance 64203 Move to pass that general ordinance Moved in second into pass To accept and adopt drc and pass both general ordinances under discussion Hearing none. Would you call the roll please? Vander wheel Wongamon Warner Bowman D Berg Eberg Doyle Moody Perez Schultz Stefan Devin Akron T van Akron 13 eyes Motion carried Steve other matters 1846 is a communication being a petition Excuse me 1845 Okay The communication being petitioned from Richard Manny at all requesting the city add signage to the intersection of park avenue North Point Drive Barrett Street and Lincoln Avenue as the intersection is unsafe public protection safety 1846 is a communication from James and Pat Ailiffe Requesting a three-year extension on connecting to the mini sewer being planned and installed between Gilea Avenue and east mark drive public works 1847 is a communication from Terry Verstrati of wigwam mills relating to dedicating 0.65 acres of the northeast corner of their land To the city for a detention pond and their intention to sell the City of the land for the price of a dollar public works Excuse me dual referral 1848 is an RO submitting an application from mark hassler for a change in zoning classification of property located at 1212 pennsylvania avenue from class UI urban industrial To uc urban commercial classification plan commission 1849 is a resolution directing a public hearing to be held in connection with change of the city's official zoning map for property located at 1212 pennsylvania avenue Move this second a resolution be put upon this passage under discussion Hearing none all in favor posed motion carried 1850 is an ordinance amending the official zoning map Of the zoning ordinance to change the use district classification of property located at 1212 pennsylvania avenue from ui to uc urban commercial plan commission 1851 is a resolution authorizing entering into a revised state municipal agreement for engineering design services and construction for state highway 28 south 16th street to georgia avenue. They will go to public works Alderman van Akron Your honor i would move to convene in closed session under the provisions of section 19.851 e of the wisconsin statutes for the purpose of deliberating the sale of public properties and investing of public funds for the possible hotel Waterpark conference center project and a possible distribution center project where competitive bids and bargaining reasons recall your closed session Move this second to go into closed session. Is there any objections? Hearing none, would you call her all? Longerman Warner Bowman D bird E bird Doyle Moody Perez Schultz Stefan Devin Akron Teevin Akron Vander wheel 13 eyes Motion carried will take five minutes be back in here in five minutes. We'll let the press clear out and then we'll start our closed session


Hi and welcome to the session. I'm Panika and I'm going to help you to solve the following question. The question says the blood cloves of 30 students of class A are recorded as follows A,B,O,O, A,B,O,A,O,V,A,O,V,A,O,V,A,O,O. A,A,B,O,A,A,O,O, A,B,B,A,O,V,A,V,O. Represent this data in the form of a frequency distribution table which is the most common and which is the rarest blood group among these two legs. Let's now begin with the solution. Frequency distribution table is the method by which we can represent raw data in the form from which one can easily understand the information contained in the raw data. Let's now make a frequency distribution table of the given data. We have made this table with two collabs, one for the blood groups and one for the number of students. Groups A for respective rows. Calculate that how many students has A blood group? 1, 8, 9. So now we will write 9 in this column. Calculate that how many students has B blood group? How many students has O blood group? 9, 10, 11, 12. So write 12 here. Now find that how many students has AB blood group? B blood group. Now from this table we will find that which blood group is the most common O blood group? So this means strong when group is O. Thanks and bye and take care.


with the launching of the anchor borough's program. Very few realized then what that step would mean for our country. We are now poised to deliver a rice production on a scale such as has not been seen anywhere in Africa. Today, by some estimates, we produce 17 million tons of paddy. But we must note that our investment in agriculture is still probably under 100 billion naira, and in rice even less. This demonstrates that were we to double that investment, especially in the incremental provision of inputs, irrigation and processing capacity, who will easily become one of the top three producers of rice in the world in another two, three years. It was His Excellency the Governor of KB State who demonstrated with facts and figures at a NEC meeting that if we spend even 25% of what we currently spend on the petroleum sector on farming, we would create at least 6 million more jobs and easily achieve double-digit GDP growth. Our vision can only be stultified by the smuggling of rice. Smuggling, as you've heard, is clearly economic sabotage. It is the economic equivalent of warfare against our nation because it destroys economic livelihoods and impoverishes our people. All of our efforts can be killed by the dumping of subsidized rice from Asia. Yesterday, at the meeting of the economic management team, we held a special session on smuggling. The meeting was attended by the Governors of KB and Jigawa, the Customs, Immigration and even the Air Force. We confirmed that smuggling was going on unabated through Niger, Cameroon and Benner Republic. Benner Republic, of course, as we've heard is a nation that eats probably only between 400 and 500 metric tons of white rice and it now imports over 1.8 million metric tons of purple rice annually. In the same 2017, where they imported 1.8 million metric tons of purple rice, we imported only 23,000 metric tons of purple rice. Clearly the port in Benner is now almost entirely used as a staging post for rice smuggling into Nigeria. We have drawn up a list of actions for Mr. President's consideration that we propose should be taken to drastically reduce smuggling. The EMT will, in consultation also with Rice Producers Association, draw up an incentive regime that would radically improve increased rice production. As we speak in the banquet hall here at the State House, there is a focus lab going on between the Ministry of Agriculture, the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Investment, the Ministry of Budget and Planning and investors in the Agriculture of value chain. The idea of the lab is to provide a meeting point between investors in agriculture and government agencies who grant approvals and licenses necessary to ensure that their investments thrive. Mr. President, the most important resource this country has are our determined and committed people and they deserve all of our commendation. The farmers and millers who believe and trust this government and Mr. President enough to invest their resources based on your expression of your vision alone. The governors who have shown great leadership and vision, in particular the governors of KB, Jigawa, Lagos and Eboni State. The Honorable Minister of Agriculture, under whose watch we have seen some of the most exciting developments in agriculture in recent history. The CBN governor whose passion and commitment for agriculture is unparalleled and whose passion for the nation causes him to wear a green tie every single day. The Chief of Staff who, despite the fact that he has no farming skills whatsoever, he only an intellectual, has worked hard and relentlessly, not just on the fertilizer and other initiatives that have brought so dramatically, that have brought agricultural production so dramatically improved and has improved the general outlook of the economy. Mr. President, I congratulate you on the important achievement of a major campaign promise. You had said even during the campaigns that agriculture mining and jobs from the building of our railways will be a strategy for quickly producing jobs. You are absolutely right. With regard to agriculture and especially rice production, that point has not only been very well proved, but we are also on the threshold of exponentially increasing jobs and opportunities for our people, especially in the rice sub-sector of agriculture. Thank you very much.


There's three real reasons why I really like working for the extension service and I think this would go with a lot of people that like to have, you know, they like to have fun at work, they like to continually learn, and they like to help people. And then those three things are entwined in working in the extension service every day. You get to have fun, you're working with people, and the best part is you can continually learn and it's actually expected of you to be learning all the time. Those are three of the reasons why I really like working in the extension service.


Oh that's a bright red. Holy cow. That's a pretty red. This is the Magenta Lake. Wow. That's bright too. I might really like these paints. They seem to be equal intensity to any of the other really fine art paints that I have. Of course including Daniel Smith and Schminka and all of those, but especially the Mission Gold paints. They are reminding me of the Mission Gold paints. I like that cerulean. It seems to be a little bit more opaque. All of them seem to be a bit more opaque than I'm used to, but I like them. This is the Emerald Green. Oh wow, that's pretty. And it didn't take much to rewet them. This would be a great palette for landscape painting because of the color selection. There's lots of earthy tones in here. So even though these cakes came dry because I've painted with it and I've rewet them, and this is true with any watercolor when I get done painting, I leave it open like with the Daniel Smith one until it's completely dried out again before I closed up and put it away. See what I mean about there being a lot of browns. Personally I would choose like one or two less browns and I'd put a nice bright orange and I'd put a purple at the least. Wow, that black is really dark. So there you go. There's our Zaki watercolors. And again, I don't think that's how you pronounce it, but we're going to go with that for now. So there you go. We have both new watercolor palettes, the new metallic palette that I just made, custom metallic palette, and then the fancy Italian artist watercolors. I hope this gives you some ideas of what's out there, what's available. If you're on a budget and all you can afford are lesser expensive paints, then by all means get Prima. Prima makes some great paints. So does Coy and so does Windsor Newton, and they're fabulous paints. And I obviously like the Prima boxes because I keep reusing them. They're nice. They're really nice. And I forgot what I was going to say. I lost my train of thought. But here you go. These are really nice addition, I think, to the other paints that I have. And I think they'll complement the other things that I have very nicely. So when you do get to be like me and you have lots of different kinds of acrylic paint or watercolor paint, I do stop and take a deep breath anymore before I buy something and ask myself, will it add value to the collection I already have? What will it add? And that really got me thinking about getting metallic paints in, but getting nice quality artist metallic paints in. So which these are. So I like that. I do have twinkling H2O's and they're great for doing cards and tags and journal pages. But I really wanted something that I could use in finer paintings. And so that's why I got the Daniel Smith. Alright, that's it for today. So go out there, see what's available, research it, and you know, maybe you'll find a new brand like this Italian one. I really like their paints. They are very opaque, but they're pretty. We're going to have to try them soon on a Watercolor Wednesday live. Alright, that's it for today though. Don't forget the most important thing. Go out and have a great day. Do something nice for yourself because you deserve it. Alright, I'll see you later. Bye.


lly they'll also have insights on what they will do in the next two weeks after tomorrow to sort of help lead up to that right um because we've we like I say we've not really had a sustained methodical communication from uh the district um up until recently okay no let's let's try it out and see uh Jamie I definitely want to give you the uh a lot of leeway and runway here to do that okay gill I I would just say that in your conversation with bill or maxfield I think that um people's attention is really going to happen after they've gotten the notice right and so one could argue that that's you know when the most conversations and education and should happen so I hope that even if you insist on having one before we vote that there is also something after the notices come out because that's when most people are going to be paying attention I just predict you're not going to have much attention before that because just there's nobody here tonight um not quite nobody well I'm sorry and there's a you know relatively not many bodies out there here or elsewhere so uh but I do have a technical question that I'd like to ask um Heather and Theresa she's still there is are we actually talking about putting together two prop 218 notices one for the wastewater and one for the water or are they together it would be going together it would be one prop 218 notice okay I don't I don't like but they but they vote separately don't they they do indeed yeah so the reason I'm asking this is I'm wondering whether whether this is again a divisible question that we can say please go ahead and prepare for the next board meeting the prop 218 for the Bear Creek Estates water is that wastewater wastewater excuse me wastewater um you know if but maybe there's no value in in doing that but I I do believe that it has to be separate because it's a different voting public okay yeah in fact having outreach to the wastewater guys can be fairly easy to do yeah there's there's only 54 of them or something like 56 but yeah it is is that so in other words like what I'm saying is we could have a motion that says tonight that we accept the report and a second part that says basically instruct blah blah blah but for the wastewater part yeah is that yes um and we're requesting are we requesting anything of staff at this point on this outreach aspect I would be directing staff to ensure that we have a public outreach meeting in advance of the December 7th board meeting about here we're not directing them tonight staff to do anything but that'll come out we could we could I mean we know we're going to get a presentation from miller maxfield tomorrow that's outlining what we can do right for public outreach but we can tell the staff tonight like it's our expectation that that something happened before we come back to um pass the prop 218 process I understand we can do that but if we direct them to do quote something they won't do anything because we haven't really told them what to do well public I'm saying we're directing them to hold a virtual public outreach meeting I understand that we're that's putting the cart before the horse a bit in terms of miller maxfield but um that's where we are the direct staff to to conduct public outreach with guidance from the admin committee there you go okay there you go okay yeah is that does that kind of get get us there let you have the discussion with miller maxfield let you filter out what what you think you can do with them yes and the timing with them um and do that before the next okay but we but not but yeah I asked a clarifying question please sure um what I hear from this board is that you want to um assuming it can be done and and we'll know more tomorrow a public outreach done before the rates are presented to you again yes and you at this point don't have expectations of that occurring November 16th that it'll occur December 7th instead I mean that's I don't think it's realistic to think that we could have a some kind of separate meeting with the public before the November 16th meeting I completely agree I'm just making sure it's all really clear on on the expectations of the board right well that's what we're trying to okay um then what about this um moved that the board accepts the staff report uh concerning the utility rate structure as presented on November 2nd 2023 um direct staff to conduct public outreach based on input from the admin committee um um and and uh what in return um by no later than December 7th 2023 with resolution authorizing staff to move forward with the 2018 process with the presented rates yes I put a motion out I would second that motion okay I noticed that there's a member of the public with their hand and I've searched for that and I can't see oh okay my eyes are blanking at this point um okay we have a motion out in front of us now we have a member of the public wants to comment uh mr smith go ahead mr smith you're muted okay uh can you hear me at this point we can okay this is michael smith I'm a third-generation uh property owner off two bar road and it's like to say that I'm one of the your public that are watching us on virtual and will continue watching very interesting I'm congruence with mr obfault and his attitude and his uh methodology for helping us understand as a public and it's really helping out a lot that was my comment and thank you very much okay um we have a motion out in front of us um we're ready are we ready to vote on this yes okay I get that feel uh holly would you take a president smalley yes director vice president hell yes director ackman yes director mayhead yes director calls no okay motion passes um it's past 9 30 but we still have a few procedural things to take care uh any um comments on the consent agenda item that's here during the uh district reports uh does anybody want to uh comment or question on those uh not seeing any hands up here uh not seeing any online then I think we can adjourn thank you thank you


All right, well, I think while Alex is figuring out the location, we can kick things off. Welcome, everyone, to the Ask the Experts panel for data privacy and governance. We have a bunch of great speakers here with us today. My name is Anishas Thana. I'm a software engineer working on the Open Data Hub. And I'm just here to moderate the panel. Mike, could you give a quick intro? Yeah, sure. My name is Mike Bussell. I'm part of the Office of the CTO at Red Hat. And I have the title of Chief Security Architect, whatever that means. And I'm also a co-founder of the MLARTS project, which is using trust execution environments for sensitive workflows and data and stuff like that. Very cool. Jamie? Hi, I'm Jamie. I lead the data governance policy here at Red Hat and have a lot of passion around and experience with customer data security protection and privacy. So I look forward to your questions. Absolutely. Adair? Sure. Thanks, Anish. Hey, folks. Uday Bapanna, product manager for data services, AI, and machine learning infrastructure at Red Hat. Also been involved a lot in the Open Data Hub since inception, trying to figure out the data services and the privacy and security aspects of it. This was a bit where I was going to ask Alex to introduce himself, but he just disconnected. Well, I guess I can introduce him. Alex is technically my boss. So he is one of the managers for the Open Data Hub team at Red Hat. And he's responsible primarily for running it. Oh, there you go. I'll let you do that, Alex. Who are you and what do you do? For the introduction, let me know if my internet starts to drop. I've just moved into a new house. And right now I'm at my in-laws who have that internet because my new house doesn't have internet yet. Like Anish said, I am a manager on Red Hat's internal data hub team. If you're familiar with the Open Data Hub project, well, I guess if you're not familiar with the Open Data Hub project, there's a platform for doing data science machine learning type things on OpenShift. And my team, we run an instance of that Open Data Hub here at Red Hat to enable teams at Red Hat to use the Open Data Hub to do data science-type workloads. And as part of that, we own a platform that stores and manages a pretty large amount of data. And we have plenty of challenges around that, sharing that data with various different teams. Awesome. So yeah, I guess I'll take things off then with some third. Jamie, would you mind telling us a little bit more about what a day is like in your life? What are some of the operational things you need to worry about, all that one stuff? All the amazing things that everyone is always interested in. So for me, I start my day looking at the news really to see what's happening in the privacy space. You see changes every day. You have Privacy Shield. You have the Brazil Privacy Law. You have yesterday I saw something from Washington State. Privacy is making its way through the headlines on a daily basis. So trying to think, what are our customers going to be asking? What are the requirements? What type of approach are we going to take? What are the guardrails that we can put in place? What are the business controls from an operational standpoint or a technical standpoint? Those are the things that I really think about on a daily basis and how we can always improve. So as things change, I guess it's an opportunity to improve the process and the experience as well. All right. All right, thank you. Sort of trying to leave from that. So there's a lot of open source projects within the space for data security. We have things like Open Policy Agent. The previous presentation talked about Open Scab. Then you have Enox, Datamash, Agiria. How do you sort of see those fitting into this bigger picture of protecting data? Both within Red Hat or in the industry as a whole? So I didn't kick that off, Anish. Yes, so there are a series of new open source projects that have been incubated over the last two, three years, specifically on the data privacy and security aspect. And these projects are good in that they are following the path laid out to the original database sort of a workload, right? You still have lots of unstructured data, but the policy, the security, the governance models and the requirements haven't changed. And we've seen a good amount of open source projects come up around those areas. The next step of evolution in what I see based on interacting with these communities is the need to put these projects together into a true solution right now. There's some good projects solving really good problems, but we need a way to connect them together. We need standards or standard interfaces to connect all of these together. So you get the security and privacy requirements, but also the end user and the admin and the chief data officer experience that they desire. So do you think companies are ready to start adopting some of these open source tools for security and data governance? Or do you think like the push is still towards some of the larger commercial close source offerings? So I'm gonna come to it from a slightly different direction. So my interest is more on some of the lower level tech that can support some of these capabilities. And I think we are definitely seeing a world where companies are getting wise to the fact, I'm not just companies, you know, larger organizations are getting wise to the fact that open source means that it's auditable. It means that, you know, you've got to be aware of the many eyes hypothesis where thing open is just better because more people look at it because security isn't like that. You need trained good people who are experts looking at it in a structured way. But when you have companies such as Red Hat or many companies out there supporting open source and security related products or projects and making sure that you do have expertise, I think that people are beginning to realize from the bottom up at least that actually there's a lot of benefit to that. And what's more, you know, if someone, if you don't need to have multiple people, multiple organizations auditing a project from different points of view, it can all be done once. And there's some interesting things going on in a world out there about supply chain and how you manage that and the open source world, et cetera. But at least it's open, at least you can see it. And I think that, you know, companies are realizing that certainly from the bottom up. Now I can't talk to some of these, the sort of higher level constructs that are being put together about that other folks on the call can, but I would be surprised if that doesn't start happening if it hasn't already, frankly. So to add to what Mike said, what we're looking, seeing in open source is a lot of these good technologies being developed, right? But as I look at it from the community and the community composition perspective, this is a great area and a chance to bring the non-technical folks into open source, to bring the auditors, to bring the lawyers, to bring the legal folks, getting the right thing in security and privacy. And that domain needs a lot more expertise than just technical experience or documentation, right? We need the domain knowledge and we need to expand the scope of these open source communities to include those knowledge experts that can help the communities and then produce the right project and product. I think that's where we have a big step to go next. I didn't agree more. It worries me whenever we have any project which doesn't look just beyond the techies. Well, for pretty much anything, but particularly where you're in a world of compliance and auditing and things, you absolutely need to have that involvement. And as you say, in open source, there's a great opportunity to do that. Anyone have any ideas about how to encourage that? So my team, the Open Data team, and I absolutely echo what you guys have been saying. When we've been able to get people just, my team, which is purely technical, involved in these sorts of discussions, we've been able to see really great progress. If nothing more than identifying requirements and use cases for what we need as coming, our background is not purely managing data and building out big enterprise level systems for that. We don't have necessarily the use of expertise around that. I've done a really good job, at least within the Open Data Hub community seeking to actively pull out that engagement, or those engagements as community members, right? So, Mike, to your question, how do you get people involved? I think you have to be really deliberate in inviting people to come in and asking them to come in. I think we've found, and certainly across all the open source communities we've been in, people are really eager to help. They just want to know, they need to know what to help with, right? I think being very deliberate and intentional with, keeping your eyes open for people who have these expertise you're looking for, and inviting them to community meetings, inviting them to present with your team, inviting them to collaborate and think about, we need you experts on what three requirements do people need to have for data governance, right? Give them something specific to help with it. I think people are eager to help. And to what Alex said, one thing also that's different in here is, it's also more cultural in that open source communities have traditionally been looked at as areas for incubating great technology, right? But we need to frontend some of that with the classic, like you said, the closed source offering processes where we have wireframes or mock-ups that we can bring these non-technical folks into, but still get some really good feedback, make sure they understand, and we understand the requirements. I have a question. So, Sharad Griffin was asking, so I guess in that same way, many of the protection laws that have been put out there are vague policies and processes. Are you seeing anything being done from the open source communities to help bridge government policies with practical usage of being able to execute on these? I think an example here would be the foundational pieces that you're following for something like the GDPR, right? So, I mean, that's something that would be foundational from like a privacy by design, security by design lens, right? And then you would then create your own processes and guidelines and policies around how you're interpreting that and following that and how you can go back and audit it and basically verify and improve as you go along, right? So, I don't have any specific examples, but I think that is a guiding principle that you would as an example for a GDPR. So, I'm aware of one, which is being talked about at the moment. So, I talked about the NARCS project. That's part of a Linux Foundation project called the Confidential Computing Consortium, which is about using trusted execution environments to protect data in use. So, we're already thinking about whether we should be engaging with standards bodies to say, you know, GDPR says you're only allowed to keep stuff, I'm oversimplifying it. Let's say some of these things say you have to have things encrypted at all times if they're outside a particular jurisdiction. Is it acceptable to say, as long as it's encrypted in this hardware controlled and audited manner to be running stuff so I could let's say process data in this protected way because it's always encrypted from the rest of the host in a different jurisdiction. And I think they're HIPAA, there's some other things around there about we've got these new technical controls. Can we apply them in ways that meet the spirit of the law or spirit of the regulations where frankly, the letter is not clear? And I think there's some opportunities arising in a number of areas there actually. That's just one that I happen to be a big bit. Very interesting. Yeah, I really never thought about it from that perspective, you know, and to that. Taking a step back from open source, what are some challenges that we generally see our customers facing with requests regarding data security and privacy? So what?  And that's brand, that's reputation, that's money, that's fines, all the things, right?  You know, what are you doing in these areas? You know, there's a lot of questions that we get asked, but, you know, those things, you know, help us to understand, you know, the new requirements coming down, right? So you asked me what was top of mind of my every day is always making sure that I'm up to date on what's happening in the world because we are going to get a question from our customers asking, hey, I just saw this, what are you guys doing about it, right?  So, yeah, so from my role of talking to our customers and trying to understand across the management's chain and what the challenges are, one thing that always keeps pops is trying to balance this idea of security and privacy and compliance with keeping the data set meaningful enough to do something useful with it, right? You can't anonymize every element of a data set and then make it useful. You have to find that right balance. And then the other key challenge that goes with it is it's also about automating that process of solving the challenge, right? Even if we know how to sanitize a data set, are there tools, are there projects out there that can automate it? Because a human being cannot look at so many lines of our data sets and anonymize it manually, right? Is there a standardization process that can be done? Like here is standard process of anonymizing the medical image. Here is what you do if it's payroll data, right? The missing link there is that there aren't many projects or software solutions in that area too. Yeah, that's a problem space that we work in a lot. I'm worried more, let me know if it is. But my team is the only kind of a general purpose data lake here at Red Hat, right? So we have countless numbers of discrete data sources in our system added every day, right? For us to be able to manually audit that entire data set and know what has information in it, what needs to have restricted access, et cetera, you could never try and scale to do that all on our own. So looking for open source tools that will let us automate the process is key. We're fortunate to have some great partners here in the opposite of the CTO at Red Hat, building AI ops type pipelines where we try and do things like automate scanning of data to identify what needs to be masked. That's a big kind of area where we see a lot of potential there to be able to scale out. Yeah, so I was lucky enough to be able to take part in a Red Hat research day early this week where this came up specifically. I've just put the link actually in the chat. The sessions were recorded and should be available to watch soon, but there's some really interesting academic work going on, some which is beginning to bleed through. I'm sure that Alex and folks are aware of this. And we have some interesting links with Harvard and Boston University and folks, people who are working on a sort of area. I just thought it might be interesting for people to have a look around there. Really complex stuff, it turns out, and really interesting too, but it looks like some of the stuff is beginning to bleed through into real world use cases, which is fantastic. So I guess this may be a loaded question, but are you trying to see some engagements between these academic research things and open source communities in the space? Or do you foresee that being something that should be happening? One very specific example of a corpus that's been put together for that is called Open DP, Open Differential Privacy, or Privacy if you're a Brit like me, which is trying to bring together some of those tools and make them open source. The algorithms, the tools, the frameworks as well. I think it's an area where academics are realizing that actually it's a great way to get some visibility is to go more open source. Again, I'm not hugely in a great position to talk about this. I just watched the talks and I'm passing on what I found. Really interesting. I'd hardly recommend that anyone who's interested. We've got some more questions. People keep asking questions that awkward. That's a good thing, right? They're engaged. So Ricardo asked, with the growing number of privacy laws in the world, how can a company adhere to all of these laws? What guidance should they be looking for? Yeah, that is a great question. And I think the GDPR bar was so, is that like foundational, really made us think about privacy in a totally different way than we ever have, right? And a lot of companies took a global approach. Redhead has taken a global approach. So when you take that global approach, it makes it a lot easier to then adjust to the Brazil law as an example, because it's kind of a copy of the GDPR, yeah. So there's some differences, but there's a lot of similarities in how you would implement it, right? And the ones that really get tricky are the ones that are on top of the GDPR and the ones that are state specific in North America as an example. There's so many different nuances that you have to follow. So if you take like the highest bar and you say, okay, we're gonna take the global approach that you cast such a wide net that you can then be able to move with the changes rather than be more proactive versus a reactive mode. And you also have some time to implement based on when things kind of go in effect and how you're enforcing. So Jamie, a quick follow up question then to that is, I mean, what you said seems pretty similar to what we see in the tax law side of the world, right? Every county, state, a country has a completely different way of doing things that may not fit together, but that has been to a certain extent automated with the softwares and such, right? So do you foresee something like that being possible in the security and privacy area and then would open source be a good area so we can all have a common code base to build upon? What do you think of it? Yeah, no, I think it'd be great. I'm always looking for open source, solutions with, you know, compliance and I just would love to see more of it. I think this is a space, it's a huge opportunity where even in the commercial space, you don't really see a good solution, right? They're all kind of the same. They're not really, they don't really fulfill all the requirements. So I mean, I would love to kind of, you know, see an open source version that would help on a global level, right? Someone who can, you know, something that would encompass, you know, everywhere that we can kind of put it together and put the similarities together so you can see it holistically, right? And not being so, you know, region specific, if you will. But yeah, I think it's a great opportunity and there's a lot out there to kind of, you know, kick off. Interesting. So, well, speaking of that then, right? Like do you see intelligent automation of all of this stuff being very important, right? Like since with all the data growing, it's just growing, right? More and more companies keep getting more data. We have more data centers everywhere. I think, well, I say, I think, what do you think of like building our open source systems with this automation built in from the get go, right? Was this sort of trying to go back and apply some ML principles through it? Yeah, and I think that goes back to the principle of just treating data as an asset, right? I think, you know, we really have to look at it in that way and then the rules kind of are like the guardrails to kind of ensure that you're moving that forward. But yeah, there's no way that we could do this manually at all and we shouldn't be doing it manually in 2020, right? So I think you definitely need this technical, business controls and policies to safeguard, you know, you along the way. Yeah, like automation is going to be required. What I think will be interesting to see is automation gets pushed out to like the end to use an overloaded term of where the data gets generated, right? It seems like trying to do all this automation on a central data lake would just entail these massive batch jobs that would take forever because of how much data they have to operate on, which, you know, might not produce the best results or at least add some latency, right? Can we push that automation out closer to the source of the data to know as data's coming in, you know, flag identify whatever sensitive data gets generated, do whatever masking we can or at least, you know, flag it for future processing kind of thing. I think that will be an interesting space to see what. That was again something that came up and on the research day, it was talked about a bit there's some interesting things going on there. It's worth finding out about. I try not sound like an expert, cause I'm really not. That's a. Very cool. So we've been talking a lot about GDPR and CCPA, right? You know, like not quite specifically, but sort of dancing around those questions. What have you seen for your customers who are already using open source products, right? And it doesn't have to be products for data compliance or data security, but just, you know, general usage of open source products. How is it affecting their day to day with sort of their workflows and, you know, going more specific, how is it affecting what they try to do with AI and machine learning? I think GDPR is your individual right to privacy and your California Consumer Privacy Act is really focused on the consumer, right? And kind of protecting a specific demographic, right? For their right to privacy. I think, you know, there's, we need to find a better way to automate. I think that's been like the theme here, right? You know, for sure is something that we need to do, but understanding the difference between the two, right? Is that that they all kind of mesh together, right? I think that just the requirements, we need to make it easier just to audit and to make sure that those business controls are the ones and technical controls are the right ones and that we can adjust along the way. Yeah. So, yeah, so it's from people, customers using open source. The feedback has been good. So they see a project that's open so they can go look at the code and figure out and make sure it does exactly what it does and there's no approaching horses hidden inside or no loopholes, right? So the place where open source helps is for security and privacy is, you don't just get to control your data on paper, you can have you or a friend look at the code and say that it really controls and does the right thing, right? So that's where we're seeing a lot of positive feedback and then good vibes on the open source side. Yes, I think we need to still work on the open source aspect is one, make sure we put the right usability framework around it, right? Most of these tools in the end are supposed to cater to a non-technical audience, highly technical in their fields, like the legal and the auditing field, but not technically in the computer science a sense of the world, right? So we need to make sure we make these tools applicable and easy enough to their workflows and to their usability standards. That's where I think we have a gap that we need to close fast. And then comes, this is where the commercial aspect of open source comes, right? We have a solution, but there's also the legal certifications that we have to go through these agencies that we have to go and run their test feeds or have them look through the code and certify that the tool is the right tool to use. And that is where some of the commercial vendors dealing in open source can really help because they already have staff that can do that or have had those relationships in the past. So that's another area where we can really help out. So to kind of hop a little bit on the technical user tasks, Felix, have you seen any problems with this internally, right? Since you manage a big data lake, do you have any thoughts to share here? I think the biggest challenge we have is there are all these open source tools in this space, right? There are all these different places where you might store data. For us, it's Elasticsearch and Kafka and S3, right? And there's all these different tools that process it and there's all these different tools that people use to analyze data. And in the past, I think, you know, there were a few big players in the space that it was easier to build a solution and it worked for that one big player. But today, people want to use one of, and different tools they want to be able to pick the best of breed of what's available to them. And so from an auditing and security side, it has to work with everything and do its job really well with everything. That's the challenge we're really trying to overcome. And so that's honestly what has made progress a little slow for us, you know, trying to figure out what is the lowest hanging fruit the highest priority thing to try and try and tackle in the security space or in a solution to build with these open source tools. Well, it's like you could read my mind. You just said of my next question, to some extent. So we're talking about all these like transitions to technology, right? And like these different paradigms where you have a lot of these different tools coming in, good, but then this might be for you. How do you think the evolution of like how we store and access this data has affected these, the tools organizations are using, you know? That certainly with GDPR, you know, adding constraints on where data can be stored, it forced people to be more flexible in how they ran. So previously when like, you know, corporations controlled all the data and could decide, you know, where to run the data, whatever is easiest for them, they didn't necessarily have to like worry about all the added complexity, just do whatever is easy for them, pick the best product and just run it, right? For us having to be able to build a solution that works across all of, you know, whatever cloud provide you pick in the world, whatever country pick in the world, whatever on-prem thing you pick in the world has kind of, I guess maybe not leveled the playing field but forced us to build better solutions that work across a wider range of these cases. And I think there's a couple of things also going on that are forcing the trend, Alex, right? There's one, it's just the classic, the volume and scale of data, right? Organizations are now starting to think, how do we manage this data at the largest scale that we have them? It isn't a data warehouse or controlled by a vendor anymore, right? You have a lot of data coming in. So how do we apply these policies at scale and how do we scale out the tools and the processes to support it? And the second one is just the amount of data coming in, right? In the past, when you had structured data warehouses and databases, you had data coming in a very structured format, you knew exactly where it was going in, in a table or a column. You don't anymore, right? It could go anywhere from a text file to CSV to whatever image user uploads now. Just the variety of data has grown so much that they are realizing it isn't a single tool that can solve it. You have to have multiple tools that and then have to collaborate to make a solution happen. OK, yeah. We answered quite a few of the questions. I think you pretty much answered most of the ones I prepared. I had a question which I was thinking about, which is we hear a lot about your CFO or your COO or your Chief Risk Office or whatever getting involved because there's now liability at the board level for making sure that your data governance is managed. How much do we think that they care about the technology? Obviously, they want things automated. Are we seeing pressure from that direction at all? Do they care about open source? Do you see what I mean? Because often you'd expect the decisions around this sort of thing to be a level down. But if the board really cares, how much are they getting involved? Is that something anyone can talk about? I have no idea. I know that at some companies, it is at the board level. It is on the P&L level where they're tracking it as well. I'm not sure what the connection to the open source is. But it is, I know, something that it's becoming more and more aware. And I think, Mike, you bring up a really good point because I think with now COVID, I think privacy and security is at the forefront of everyone's mind. Everyone is going to the doctor, whether you want to or not. You hear about it. How are they going to track to make sure that I'm six feet away from someone? Or how is my information going to be protected? And what are they going to do with this analysis now if I got tested? So I think that everything is just really starting to bubble up. And I think privacy got a wave with GDPR three years ago. And now you're on this wave now with COVID, right? With, hey, it's even more important now. And it's so important that individual states within the US are now considering, OK, what do we want to think about with HIPAA? Do we want to put that with some components of that with CCPA? Or do we want to put components of that with something else? It's a different conversation than it ever has been before. And I think until you see enforcement in that area, it will become real. But I know that some companies are putting on their P&L. And then Mike, again, it's a discussion point, like you said. I don't think we have an answer. But do they care for the technology part? Do they care? I think it's not about the technology pieces they care. But in my view, being open source gives you an extra level of security, right? So you have the multiple eyes who can get things at that same code base, which certainly, if you are a board member, you would rather have something that's been widely accepted that your peers have accepted and looked at. So that aspect is where I think open source is at the top of the mind all the way up to the CXO level or even the board level is that multiple eyes issue, right? And the second area where open source is up to their mind is it's just extending it easy, right? If you have a specific use case in your company because you're in a slightly differently regulated industry, it's easy to get pulled on an open source project and add stuff in there to suit your industry. It's not so easy for a proprietary software. I think that's where also boards do is, I mean, boards and CXOs look at M&A for an year or two down the lane. They plan for strategy, right? And the tools need to support those M&A operations or extensions easy enough. And I think that's where open source is gaining mind share. Justine.  There was a case last week or so, 18,000 COVID patients. All of the COVID positive patients in Wales, which is part of the UK, PII, Personal Identifiable Information was released by accident as a big breach. And the thing about that is, of course, they may have other underlying health conditions. They may have other genetic or other conditions or other information which is unrelated to COVID but is now being released as well. And it really does bring to the fore. You're right, we need to be thinking about these things. And it's not just companies, it's governments. It's charities. I'm aware of an organization and not anything to do with Red Hat, I should point out, where they have a whistleblowing policy and all good stuff. And someone was searching for the whistleblowing policy on their internal intranet and found not only the policy, but all the cases of whistleblowing with all of the information and all of the details of how it had been managed. And that is the sort of thing you really don't want to be happening, right? And these are very different types of cases, but they're what we should be worrying us. And which I hope folks like you can sort out. It'll be great. So, I think you've been interested in a topic that a direction that we can take the conversation is. So, till now we've been focused on the front end, right? How do we make sure we respect the security laws, the privacy aspects and the privacy issues of individuals? But you bring up a good point. So, what about post-breach? I mean, these things happen as we have seen, right? So, once there is a breach, once things get out, what are some things we could do, both from the software automation aspect of it and even from the process side to contain the amount of damage that's happening? Or how can we contain the blast radius once there's a breach? One of the most important criteria that we... Sorry, the one of the most important criteria that we focus on in building out solutions is auditability, right? When a breach has happened, you need to know what has happened and what the scope is. That's kind of box number one that we're trying to check is with the solution we're building together with all these tools, how can we know who accessed what data when? Yeah, and this is tricky stuff. I don't have... We don't have ways to wipe people's memories or wipe all the machines that things have gone to. I'm kind of pleased to say, I guess. I think there are some techniques from cryptography and the world of sort of certificate management around revocation that we should be thinking about. Now, what can we revoke? Are there... It doesn't stop things being exposed, but if you can revoke access or you can make it clear that things are not certified or whatever, it's really hard. But I think we need to think about some of these time-specific capabilities. Maybe we should be removing data. These days we want to keep data for as long as possible, but there are occasions actually when removing and deleting data is the right thing to do. Just because we've got the space to keep it doesn't mean we should. Yeah, and I think understanding the why, right? I mean, reach has happened because it's human error most of the time, right? And just understanding why did that happen, right? And why was that a good idea at the time? Because what had been a good idea three years ago is not a good idea today, right? And I think just being just a trust in transparency, making sure that you are saying, hey, this is what we're doing. These are the steps that we're following. And I think that goes a long way of rebuilding your brand and relationships because that really is what it comes down to is how are you gonna be that trusted partner once this does happen and customers then have the assurances that, hey, hey, they do have those controls in place. I feel good about it. This is how we kind of all came together and move forward. I think that's the other side of it. So that raises another question, maybe we don't have much time, which is that are consumers getting blasé? Are they getting stuff leaks all the time? Should they be more worried about leaks? Yeah, I mean, especially with your COVID example, right? I mean, I can't imagine just from a discrimination standpoint or all the things that could happen with that, right? I think people do care. I think it does matter. It is in the news daily and I think it does impact consumers choices as well, right? It's the whole trust thing, right? Am I gonna really wanna do business with a company that just exposed my credit card? Probably not, right? Especially if I hear that it's a repeat, right? Breach, that's where I think it becomes really a bad situation. The thing that excites me about open source is I think it's creating those choices for people. People don't wanna feel like they're locked in. They don't trust somebody, but there's no alternative. I think with open source, we're creating alternatives. A lot of interesting discussion here, folks. Thanks for your time. We have like a minute or two left, but I'm finally calling it right now. Just as a general announcement for everyone here, we have, I think that'll be 35 minutes between, well, for lunch now. So the next set of sessions will be starting around at 12.50 Eastern time, which is in converted to your time zone. I think schedule it, schedule it, let's you do that. So yeah, thanks a ton, guys, for hopping on to this. And please come along to the session. I'm co-leading at 10 past five on NRT, which will tell you about a very specific technology. I'll just plug that. Thanks, Anish, for leading us through this. It's been fun, folks. Thanks, folks, and thanks, Anish, for reading the discussion. Thanks everyone. Bye. Bye.