not so sharply defined when it comes to hardcore secure electronics. Then if the platform is well-designed, it can really enable to switch seamlessly between a ledger and a ledgerless environment. It doesn't necessarily have to be locked into one or the other scenario, and that's a beauty of it. And you know what's funny? I was reading the Australian Central Bank paper earlier, and they mentioned an offline device capability only with battery power, meaning even mentioning the fact that recharge would be necessary every once in a while. I'm like, no, it doesn't have to be battery powered. No, no, no, no, no. That's like five years ago, 10 years ago. There's NFC now. No, but the truth is that what we've managed to accomplish is to compute all sort of elliptic curve cryptography only with NFC power. And that's what everyone else hasn't figured out yet. And that's why some technical people are still according to the notion that you need a battery to run ECC because it actually is difficult to do it with very low power, very difficult on a secure chip. And you can also charge the battery using a bicycle. Australia, yeah, I have long distance. That has been done in African countries where our solar power disconnected from the grid. There are various ways in which this can be achieved. I mean, and let's wait till more people show up or a couple of minutes more. And I am glad that John has really joined the meeting and started debating right from the beginning. That is a wonderful thing. John, you're on mute if you are speaking. Yeah, I was gonna say that I find this group quite promising because I get invited into a lot of different groups that are sponsored by various usually commercial interests and so on and then I get lured in because I'm told that we're gonna get into some real hardcore interest in debates and topics. And it always ends up being the same thing. It ends up just being very high level discussions and trying to bring perhaps the idea is to bring non-believers into the fold and so on. So this one seems to be a little more hardcore and all of us here seem to be, we don't require an awful lot of handholding here. We're ready to jump right into the deep end, which is I think really good. And in fact, I would suggest that instead of splitting the session in a monologue by me and James plus UNA, anyone can just jump in any time and ask and interrupt me. Frankie prefer an interruption than having to go through for half an hour. Well, we have a small enough group. I think that's gonna be cool. So before we start, I have to do certain things that are required of me by the Hyperledger community, oh Hyperledger management, let's say. One is the fact that we are bound by antitrust policy that is obvious in this context. The second is the code of conduct which says two important things. One is even when we disagree, we treat each other with respect. Second is that we properly attribute people. And the third, which is actually should be the first is we give space to people to talk if they want to instead of being the sole talker on the call. So that fits in nicely with the kind of debates that we're going to have. So without hesitating any further, let's dive into it Sergio and Sergio, if you look at him, you see that he's hardcore.  But he's not that tough. I know him really well, Vipin. He's really just a softy. Yes, I know. I can see that in his smile. Anyway, I'm going to keep quiet now and Sergio, you take it away and you know, others interrupt when necessary. One of my best friends once described me as a cookie, hard outside, but sweet and soft inside. I don't know, well, time will tell. Anyway, welcome everyone. I'm very happy to be here. And James, it's also here with me, been helping Tangem for a while as well. I'd like to start this with a self-introduction, hopefully not overshadowing the importance of the topic, but to set some context and I'll start also sharing the deck here. So when did digital money really come into place? Digital money really come into place. And when did FinTech really start is a question we should ask ourselves. And we'll see later in the presentation that in the 1870s and 1880s, a lot of things happened virtually 150 years ago. Western Union started the first transcontinental United States line between coast to coast in 1861. 10 years later they started using the telegraphic line to transport messages about money transfer and that's how telegraphic transfers were born. 150 years of constant iterations and evolution, of course, with more modern, more complex, more powerful systems blossomed obviously with the internet and the fact that all the digital access got democratized all of a sudden 20 years ago, 15 years ago and then mobile. So we have a lot of iteration and now we got to the point where things are speeding up at an exponential pace. And this is such an interesting time obviously to be witnessing and participating constructively in moving forward. Personally, I've seen a few milestones of this process happening. I was born in a family where my dad was a tech entrepreneur which was not really a common thing to be in Italy in the 80s. So I've witnessed firsthand mobile terminals doing over landline communication before moderns were even really a word. Then in 2003 coincidentally, I was still living in Italy and Hutchinson-Wampoa Group launched 3G, so UMTS was called CDMA 2100 in Italy. So we were one of the first countries in the world, if not the first to have mainstream video calls between phones, I wouldn't call it a smartphone, but they had already a decent experience, really like a FaceTime experience. And this was early. Then 2007, at the time coincidentally, I was living in Korea and I still vividly remember how I landed in a country where iPhones were barely being launched elsewhere in the world. So that tells you how smartphones were at the time. So be easy, barely an internet connection, barely a browser, barely some apps that would be like calculator and compass to start with. And in Korea, almost every phone, feature phones, smartphone, all alike, had NFC capability for mobile payments, store value and account base, tap, tap, tap anywhere in the country. So that's where they were and they were so advanced, no other country, maybe Japan only. Can you tell us what NFC is because there may be people who do not know? Near field communication is a wireless protocol that is based on low energy, high proximity, wireless transmission that is used mostly for payment systems and it's like the Apple Pay and Google Pay and also the credit cards. So these cards, all these cards that have, sorry, I shouldn't see my number, maybe, these cards that have the NFC logo here, whoop, can't see it, anyway, the little four waves, that's a EMV logo for NFC. So it's meant for close proximity transactions. It's called contactless, although usually you just go so close as you almost touch, but it could be technically a few centimeters, a few inches away. So in 2007, we were already doing mobile payments in Korea and from that on, has been a landslide of innovation up until today where I'm very happy to be at the forefront of this innovation with Tangem. Tangem was born out of hardcore research and development in secure, embedded and micro systems, anything from SIM card in laser to more complex solutions with the results that in 2017, yeah, so 2017, three, four years ago, were founders understood the power of blockchains and decided to focus on applications to bring digital assets to mainstream. Now, blockchains, of course, unlocked a lot of creative thinking in R&D. Don't necessarily mean that every solution that the world needs or that Tangem provides are based on a blockchain, but it means that the fundamental principles of asymmetric cryptography and how this is used to secure assets and secure property on a blockchain are usable in other contexts too. And this is where Tangem really comes into place. But I'll dive straight in so that we can have a better understanding of what we do. And again, please don't throw me any time. Love to have feedback and I love maybe to explain and break down certain concepts that may not be obvious to the viewer so later for the recording. Central Bank Digital Currency. This is a beautiful schema first seen in 2018 made by the Bank of International Settlements. It's called the money flower because it looks like a flower and it describes through means by means of a Venn diagram how different type of applications and different properties of money can be identified. For the purpose of understanding where Central Bank Digital Currency really fits. So the gray area, so the central four squares, sectors are where the Bank of International Settlements in 2018 thought Central Bank Digital Currency would be. The lines are blurred in certain cases. So I'm not gonna dive into the discussion of whether this is right or wrong, but there is a very good starting point to understand what type of problem we're trying to solve today. And the problem we're trying to solve with Tangem is to make Central Bank Digital Currency accepted, accessible and inclusive and secure for everyone. So really bring it to mainstream. Our starting assumption is today we have paper cash. Can we do better, like 10 times better? Because if we're not improving UX by 10 times, we're really not solving a problem. We should take this as a Silicon Valley startup with the intention of really dramatically revolutionizing the experience for the better, not just iteratively add a little bell or a little whistle to the solution. And this chart also brings up a few ongoing discussions whether Central Bank Digital Currency should be distributed on a one tier or two tier system, whether it's the only the Central Bank should be involved in the distribution and management and program management of the currency or whether there should be also a cooperation by a middle tier of commercial banks that as they do today help with the distribution. Technically today cash is N-zero. So the Central Bank directly redeemable and issued currency, but at the same time it is in fact distributed by ATMs from the commercial banks. So you can have the second tier anyway. Very few of us would really, you could but very few of us could really do on a daily basis walk up to the Central Bank to redeem or transact or withdraw cash. It is a title of a claim towards the Central Bank in that sense it's M-zero. And another big discussion that has been brought alive by multiple players in the industry is whether the right approach is to have a token base or an account based solution for digital currency issued by the Central Bank. This taxonomy is highly debated and I agree that it's not maybe the proper way to identify the problem partly because it is better to call those two solution ledger-less and ledger-based as written here on the side. Our view is that in any case, the Central Bank needs a ledger to maintain its central currency, but at the same time, if you want to design a product that is comparable in properties to cash, so it's anonymous, it's peer-to-peer direct and can be transferred without internet connectivity and other facilities and witnesses and third parties, then you need the tokens to be secured and verifiable without the immediate presence of a ledger. And so you open not only to the case where the tokens are independent from the ledger, but there's a whole range in between and this is what we're gonna talk about today. How does technology help this plethora of solutions that are an old gray era between ledger and ledger-less solutions? And this is another table taken from the same report, I think from the DIS in 2018. And as you see here, the two columns between token and account-based solutions are very clearly defined as well, that's not aligned, but there's in fact a distinction between them. What we want to do today is open up your minds and allow you to explain, to think that we can't blur those lines. And this is so powerful because at this point, creativity in product design cannot, should not be limited and will not be limited by preconceptions of either technical visibility or dogmatic principles like it's your account or token-based. So not such thing for us because our technology is so powerful, it's non-binary in other words. Exactly, it's non-binary. With a powerful enough platform. Like the non-binary sort of argument accord elsewhere. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we live in a world where we're starting to accept and understand that it's not all back and white. Let's put it that way. And so with a powerful enough platform, the product design choice is left to design thinking. And so you'd want to start from, how do you want the user experience to be? What are the policies to implement? Monetary and privacy and legal and regulatory. And then walk back to how you want the features to be defined and the specifications. You shouldn't start from a dogmatic approach. Oh, we have to choose whether it's cancer tokens and then deploy the system and trying to force it towards being useful. That's a failure. And look, again, things have accelerated so fast in the last 10, 20 years. And it's beautiful to learn from companies like Facebook, Google, Apple, and all the major tech apps that are growing so fast. Why are they growing so fast? Because they're applying these design principles where they first want to solve for a problem. They want to solve for the user case. They want to optimize for usability and then walk back to what kind of platform they need or having a platform flexible enough that allows to A-B test and check and try and iterate quickly. So this is what we need for money as well. The fact that our central bank is a venerable and solid institution doesn't mean it shouldn't move in the same direction. Absolutely. The two things are unrelated, in my opinion. So going back to my initial storyline, a lot of things happen in the 80s. I mean, the real 80s, the 1880s. One of the most beautiful and my favorite stories is the War of Currents. Some of you may remember, there was also a famous movie a few years ago about Nikola Tesla, Edison and all the bickering about alternating current versus direct current. And a little background. Alternating current is an electric charge that alternates through time, which is polarity. And direct current is instead DC, 12 volts, like a battery, like this battery is DC. It will only provide, what is this, two or three volts and, well, I'm curious now, 1.5 volts and will not change. The main difference is that if you want to transfer over a long distance electricity with direct current you'll have a lot of inefficiency that is inversely proportional. So the efficiency inversely proportional to the distance you wanna travel. And so you reach a critical mass where your system is non-sustainable. Whereas with alternating current you can transport electricity much further at an incredibly higher efficiency. And also with the transformer, which is a second important component of the solution, you can quickly convert the tension, so the voltages of your current, of your electricity in real time and with a very low energy loss. These two factors, the fact that you can transfer far and you can convert easily to a lower voltage at the distribution point for a local subnetwork, of course, made Tesla's theory of alternating current win commercially over time. Today we're assisting a similar revolution that is a bit more quiet and silent. At the time, Edison was burning horses with electricity in the public square to show how electricity would be, how alternating current with high voltages would be dangerous. And I think they also started electrocution to demonstrate that it was weird. It got really ugly at some point. It's not that ugly with asymmetric cryptography, luckily it's all theoretical and on bytes and bits. But we have found out that the traditional example of Bob and Alice exchanging the messages with the private key and the public key, all that story that there's a little too much for today's presentation, but you should absolutely go look it up if you are not aware. With asymmetric cryptography, you can achieve incredible things on securing a digital assets and security and digital communication in general. The role we play at Tangem, and I'm coming to the points, is that Tangem is like the transformer for alternating current in 150 years ago. We are the little component that allows asymmetric cryptography to be distributed and made available at the end point for mainstream consumption on a daily basis and in a scalable way. So our technology is based on a very interesting stack that has proprietary firmware on a trusted chip platform. We can use EAL6 plus off the shelf chips which we are doing today. We can use proprietary chips which we are also using today. We're designing and manufacturing our own chips clearly through a fab lab. We can also use Java card with our own application. So all this trusted hardware plus audited or Java type of firmware is the core foundation on top of it. Everything is open source. Open source SDKs allow for any developer, any institution, any central bank, any bank, any retailer, any startup in a garage to take our cards and to build a solution that uses the properties of asymmetric cryptography to secure digital assets in a very affordable and flexible way. So I think we have already some questions. I don't wanna miss them, so we'll open the chat. How does the interoperability look like from chips to chips and banks to bank? Yeah, this is exactly where I'm talking about it. So actually there's a better slide for this and then I can jump back to here. Interoperability is important for the developers from the SDK app. So once you have an NFC interface and near field communication and you can just touch a card to start that transaction and I can also demonstrate it here. Probably the screen is going to rebel but if I have a smartphone and I just touch it with a tangent card, the NFC will come alive and the real-time verification of the available assets happens and I can therefore afterwards sign transactions. So what we have in the chip here is a fully self-contained key management solution. Through NFC commands, which are open stores, anyone can ask the chip to generate a new key pair, ask to prove ownership with a challenge response, ask to sign a transaction with a private key and ask to purge the keys if necessary or it's part of the cycle, to terminate the cycle of the key. All of this is self-containing, meaning that the private key never leaves this card and this is a part where either an external audit is necessary, we were audited by Kudalski security, Jean-Pierre Homason himself audited our firmware or you rely on platforms like JavaCard where there's a shift of trust to the platform, to a certified platform and we provide only a smaller part of the app on top and that could be opened. So you can shift and the shift in trust is very important because what we're really doing here is push trust to the edges. This is another important milestone to understand if we want to envision the future of money. Blockchains and specifically Bitcoin, but others too have been fundamental in educating the world about the concept of trust. In an old world, by old I mean 15, 20 years ago, you would have trust in institutions or trust in a person. Now you trust a chip and you trust a ledger and the two don't necessarily have to be open source. You can trust it through an auditor, like with a chip or you can trust it, well, in case of Bitcoin and it's open source and you can trust it to mathematical properties. And so this shift of trust makes it possible to disintermediate at will anything in between. While Bitcoin is a very, let's say extreme view on how the world should work, which one may or may not agree with but it demonstrated how things can run without the traditional banking intermediaries. The truth is that the right solution is programmable money where anything going back to my product design principle we should first design the product as serving the people and then walking back to what the requirements are. And by using a platform that is interoperable and flexible and programmable you can define all those features in the meanwhile. So specifically for central bank digital currency we don't have necessarily to choose between hosted or unhosted wallet. So basically to self custody or with a custodial account kept by a financial institution. We don't have to choose between token based and account based or ledger less or ledger based. We don't have to as long as there's enough power in the holder's device and as long as there's the right, the chain of trust is established by means of the right type of firmware, the right type of audits, the right type of mathematical functions in of course asymmetric cryptography, elliptic curve encryption, all of that and the right type of institution then of course to issue the assets. As long as that chain of trust is properly established then it should be a flexible line where we can walk along. We can walk along this green line to define what the product properties should be. We want central bank digital currency to be completely anonymous like cash, completely anonymous, very private, perfect, purely token based. Panjim does that. Of course the firmware has to take more of the trust at the point it could be done with a witness or without a witness. It could be done with a trusted terminal like someone's phone or a kiosk or it could be done by literally passing a card, like a card wallet as a bare instrument. It can be done many ways. There's no limit on how deep you can go in the pure privacy mode. You want a hybrid, you want a hybrid where every week or every so many transactions or every so much value transferred, the wallet has to be synced to a ledger where the tokens are independent by only to a certain extent and then they have to be reconciled to a central ledger, perfect. Then you configure the solution, the product design again so that that is a requirement. You want that to happen only for wallets of a certain size. You want some wallets to given to certain people to behave more anonymously and other people less anonymously. Everything can be done. Of course this is dangerous. You can also go in full tracking mode where like the biggest country in the world is doing with mobile money, which is actually, it's a model that has to be praised because they quickly switch from very old traditional financial system to the most advanced digital money system in the world, frankly. They use a lot of QR codes. They try not to use NFC too much. That does of course protection is three reasons why they're doing that on top of cost reasons. But without getting into the details of the PRC, the point is that it has to be programmable. So there's no reason why money should be defined in one specific way. And this concept of programmability is it should be the central focal point of central bank digital currency research and pilot projects today, rather than fixating on one solution and see if it works. It should walk the other way around. It should be, okay, what do we need? Okay, let's walk back and design the properties around that. Yeah, in that vein, I'll interject a little bit here as I've had a little bit of privilege per view into a central bank digital currency project, which as John, you've actually pointed out potentially in some of your blog posts, maybe a misnomer, right? Whether or not central bank digital currency is the tool that's being implemented. The retail payment system around it is really what may add the greater sense of value for these developing nations, right? And the project that I'm talking about specifically here is the National Bank of Cambodia is implementation of their retail payment system, which was on the technology side at least by my former company, Soar Mitsu, where I was doing some project management and business development and almost moved to Cambodia at the end of last year, but given events that have occurred since, greatly I did not and joined Tangium, but one of the things that they're solving for, and we've alluded to this earlier, is the user experience and offline payment capability, given that rural jurisdictions in these countries and in these places that need these new banking instruments the most, they don't really have a way for people to transact in a traceable way, right? So in the case of Cambodia, for instance, that's it becomes very difficult to collect taxes when 80% of your transactions are done with paper fiat money, right? How can you create sound monetary policy and wean yourself off of reliance of the US dollar or foreign countries' currencies if you don't have any idea what's going on in your own borders, right? So creating stability through economic policy just by being able to monitor transactions is one reason why you might want to use this what we call programmable money that Sergio's referring to, right? But more importantly is the user experience and like Sergio said, adapting it to the problem to be solved rather than just trying to fit a DLT ledger on top of a banking system where it doesn't have the same impact, right? So I think when I first saw Tangium cards, it's very striking and unfortunate. It's difficult for us to present the value of it because it is such a physical thing. And when you see it in the real world and you tap it to your phone, you see immediately how simple the user experience is and the fact that it is a zero learning curve where historically in these populations where people may not have had access to a smartphone, understanding the ability to tap and sign a transaction to remit payment is much more digestible for these people regardless of the language even. So it's very valuable from that perspective. And one of the beauties of the cards is that they can be physically distributed not just through banks, but even retail stores. And Tangium is doing that already today. So say you had a place like Campbell where there's these commercial banks and a two tiered management system where anybody with a phone number can register for a limited account without even having to do KYC, they could be physically mail the card without even ever having to go to a commercial retail location to be able to have money loaded to their account, right? And whether or not there's an exchange of cash, physically for them to redeem a token or digital asset is a different question. But even just being able to distribute aid in that fashion as we have seen in the United States, if it's a problem here and we have difficulty issuing checks to 300 million people, imagine what it's like in a third world country, right? So the fact that we can physically give a card or sell a card and have it delivered and remotely load value and store value on this card in a simple way where the person doesn't even have to have access to a smartphone to be able to store and spend on any EMV code terminal in the world is a real revolution. And like Sergio said, a 10x improvement on the user experience and the value that such technology could provide, right? And so we could talk a little bit about programmable privacy and the idea that should the central bank or issuing entity desire, you can have a cash-like experience, right? Someone could adjust the balance to the physical note, have the receiver verify it in their smartphone and lock that value and physically transfer it to someone which unlocks like we've alluded to earlier and in the conversation before we started the ability for offline payments and cash-like experiences. And bridging the old world and the new which is the slide that Sergio has up right here where we have a closed loop payment system like a DLT network where peer-to-peer transactions require no intermediaries. Bridging that with the existing open loop payment infrastructure that exists almost everywhere and is ubiquitous and the messaging is standardized allows the spending of a digital asset immediately so that the accepting merchant can receive local fiat or whatever currency they should receive and that transaction is processed immediately. And so the latency in that transaction because of Tangent's firmware is immediate and super valuable and doesn't necessarily rely on a DLT framework like Sergio said. But the value again is in the fact that asymmetric cryptography allows the agency of the card in the user's hand, right? And the self-contained generation of the keys and ability to sign with that card anywhere in the world regardless of the existing infrastructure is a huge leap forward. Yeah, thanks, James. I think you should answer up. Yeah, I'm doing that. John's question because that is surfaces often in various forms. Yeah, so of course the card is NFC. So there's two ways to transact. Either you physically deliver a card and that is a physical delivery. It's a bear title that passes hands. Second option is to transact and sign a token transfer or some ledger transfer with the card. The signature can be obtained and the token transfer can be obtained either with your own phone or with someone else's phone or with any NFC terminal that implements the right SDK. So there's a lot of scenarios where you have either a merchant or a trusted kiosk or some other type of witness solutions where neither user really needs their own phone. And this is really designed for the full inclusivity. So the bottom end of the pyramid that does not have a phone or has maybe a feature phone or maybe have a phone but not connectivity. So there's always a gray area scenarios where people don't have an iPhone or a Google Pixel. And for all those situations, our solution can work in different ways. And again, what's a product design? From there, we walk back to what are the system requirements? You do need to tap the card somewhere, clearly to obtain the signature. And in case you want to transfer completely or flying from one card to the other, clearly you will need a trusted witness where you tap the first card and you tap the second card to execute the transfer. Maybe even tap the first card again. It really depends on, again, how deep you want the requirements to affect the product or vice versa. How deep you want the product design to affect the requirements. So let's walk it back to the base case, which is the card is disconnected from the network. Obviously it is loaded with some money, which means it is taken away from some other place. Let's not say where it is. It's been released to the card, but it is from some authority like the central bank or somebody who's issuing the money. Now the card can be then used disconnectedly to transfer money back and forth. So there are several scenarios. One is the card is lost, of course, that's one. Second, somebody finds the card and may be able to use it. Third is, I mean, this is the real scenario basically you've given it money like John says, $100. Now I paid you $25, I got the card $100, I paid Sergio $25, I paid James $25, now I'm left with 50, but you got to some place where the money, it has to go back to the ledger in order to cash it or transform it into some other form. Negative, it doesn't necessarily have to go back to the ledger, that's the whole point, that properly designed secure solution with trust the hardware. Remember what I said, which is to transform it to another form, like for example, I don't want the money on the phone anymore. I want it to be in my bank account, deposit it, okay? Okay, so move to another ledger, okay, yeah. Move to another, to the place where it came from, follow. So the extreme case in all the spectrum of options is the purely offline, purely token based, purely ledger less solution, which uses mathematical properties in order to ascertain a balanced verifiability. So you have a verified balance that is mathematically secured, shifting the trust arbitrarily between the card itself, a trusted phone or a non-trusted phone or a witness, you can do multiple ways. That's why I would not want to really dive in today because it's a 10 hour discussion. But the point is that with the right platform, you can tune these parameters and have exactly the solution that you want. The extreme is that you have a completely ledger less solution. So the tokens are literally transacted from card to card with assigned and verified balance with various type of PKI's. And as you said, between when it is the time of the time machine and you want to exit the system and off-ramp to a different type of holding account, then yes, of course, then those tokens will be transferred to the redeeming party who will then transfer that balance onto a traditional type of ledger. If the card is lost? So those are the other two questions you ask. One is if it's lost and the second is if it's stolen. So those measures are seem awkward, seem difficult to achieve but are so available already. Card is lost, pink out. We call it passphrase because it can be more than four digits. It can be a whole password. But with a password that anyone taking a proposition illegitimately of a card doesn't have access to the assets and recoverability. So if I lose it it can be solved with multi-signature wallets or multi-signature schemes. Of course, in a purely anonymous token based scenario there's no recoverability for misplacing a card. It's like cash by all means.  The only difference is that with a password or pin code that $100 bill could not be used by someone else. So you can definitely reduce the incentive to stealing digital wallets because they can necessarily be used although they're a bare title. And removing the incentive is a good deterrent already. But if you look at the patterns you'll see that for example, the regular users who want to spend a little bit of money here and there that's all well and good. But once you get into a merchant where they're accumulating money there and there obviously there is a very great danger that if they're only having it on the card and they lose it with perfect anonymity then they're gone. So obviously they are the ones who come to the bank windows every evening and deposit the money back. So any system like this will have these kinds of two different kinds of users. For example, the ones who are selling their services constantly and accumulating cash and then having to use it. But of course they can still just hold on to it and pay for the services and so on. But there's a danger that by losing the card maybe there is another way to recover the money. Maybe like you said, because it always comes from a ledger there's proof that it went into this card. So all the time this talking back to the, getting back to the ledger is important for this kind of recoverability. I mean that's what John was alluding to. Yes.  That happens too by the way. A little too often. That's a little extreme. But you can think of people having multiple cards to get around limited limits and all kinds of other gaming the system sort of things. And this is what central bankers really worry about these kind of things. Yeah, exactly. So with the right type of platform these product considerations are transforming to feature requirements. And as you said, different use cases would require slightly different products. And that's okay. One solution doesn't exclude the other. That's the interesting part. There's no mutually exclusive choice here whether it should be purely cash token based or whether it should be multi-signatory, recoverable, institutional account based. It could be both at the same time or you could have slightly different product cards and product wallets that serve slightly different scenarios but based on the same system and same architecture. And that's a beauty of here. It's programmable money, right? So an app doesn't necessarily have to have one feature. An app has multiple features that serve different use cases. And that's exactly how central bank digital currency should be today. And in fact, I want to show you a little video which proves the breadth of what can be achieved with a platform like the Tangem platform. But before you start that, I have to say that I agree with you completely. In fact, my article on digital wallets talks about this very fact that it should be hybrid solution. There is no such thing as one size fits all. Exactly. And now you could tell everybody in the whole world that Tangem does both. Well, I don't think I have a platform big enough to tell everybody in the whole world. Well, it starts small. So this is a video I shot personally a few months ago. First I'm just demonstrating how the traditional balance check works on a Tangem card. But most importantly here, it's my alter ego in Oakland in a Starbucks to prove what universal acceptance and interoperability means. I have loaded a Tangem card with 10 USDC. So it's running over the Ethereum network. The keys to that wallet are only in this card. And I tap it on a visa terminal to transact. So what happened here is that we also loaded visa outlets in our future breed of cards and when we tap on a visa terminal, the transaction flows back all the way to Tangem digital currency processing system that sits within the confines of issuing bank that has the issuers cards. So we're using the Visa network as a rail to transport a crypto transaction. The crypto transaction is peer-to-peer, is purely self-custody. So it doesn't account, but it's on ledger because in fact the keys are in the hand of the user. So it's already shifting more towards token than an account-based. And when the transaction settles on the Ethereum network, Tangem is unable to pay the acquire. So the merchant doesn't even notice a difference between any other traditional bank payment cards. But what has really happened is that there was a four-party system without a bank account, without a depository account. And this is one of the scenarios that proves how the interoperability and the flexibility of a card-based solution that puts the foundations on asymmetric optography is really limitless. So yeah, we're almost done here. I just want to make sure that we understand that the name of the game here is product design and flexibility of the solution. And then from there the requirements should be defined and the use cases should be understood before there's an attempt to try to throw tokens or throw accounts or throw ledgers in the market. Some central bank digital currency pilots that I'm aware of today sometimes focus a little too much on one or other aspect they want to prove without really starting to understand what the mainstream use case would be. So at Tangem, we will be launching actually a very interesting multi-sig product for mainstream in about a month's time, actually two months' time. So stay tuned. But the reason why we have all this line of cryptocurrency cards that are really free and you should all go and buy yours on the shop.tangem.com. The reason why we have these is to prove the technology and make sure that we know what we're talking about which is how to make wallet for the future of money mainstream ready. How do we make sure that a government doesn't have to pay more than what they pay today for a $100 bill? Do we show a wallet for everyone? That's our goal and we're actually getting there. By the way, back to that transaction that you did. So what does the merchant get charged? That transaction means that we have multiple fees. So there's mostly two fees. Well, let's say two or three. Interchange fees are usually split between a choir and an issuing bank and then assessment fees charged by these are master card, the P&O, the payment network operator. The assessment fees are usually very little 0.5% ish. The interchange fees are the bulk of it and they're mostly in the hands of the issuing bank. As I said here, there's an account less system so there's no depository account. So there's less ownership of this whole transaction on the issuing bank. So it really depends who the program operator is. The program operator is the entity that distribute the cards, takes some sort of liability on how the payment system runs and then delegates or takes in house the payment processing, the issuance and the licensing. So the interchange fees in that specific case you see completely depend on the issuing bank that allowed us to demonstrate the solution in the future where program operators or issuing banks decide to use a tangent card base, the solution for EMB, so for visa master transactions, then it's a negotiation between tangent and the bank on how the fees can be lowered. And so it's pure commercial. There's no reason why this should be there at all, that there's no reason why this should be higher or lower, it's pure commercial. This is Mani from Odyssey Digital. We had actually done a prototype CBDC project under Hyperledger. It would be interesting to see how we can test it out with your card because we have the whole infrastructure for CBDC, they've done a smartphone application on top. Maybe there's something interesting to explore and see if we can. We'd love to, Sergio at tangent.com. Okay. And I'd love to talk to you. Yeah, I'd love to be one of the collaborators. Right. Fantastic. So maybe we could use this under Hyperledger project to see if we can. Yeah. Yeah, we don't necessarily offer a solution directly to the central banks just because tangent, of course, only serves so many layers in the stack. We are a 30 people company with good funding from our amazing investor, SBI in Japan. So we can do a lot of stuff, but we're not gonna run the whole show when it comes to a whole architecture for a central bank. So we're very happy to work with system integrators and platform designers and architectures designers. I had mentioned too about a different specific type of API, more like a, we can take it offline, but it's an interesting thing to explore for retail CBDC. As part of the overall CBDC, we have done a white paper on that and we have been circulating amongst our people and we are also getting involved in the Stanford's Digital Currency Initiative. So we bring that also as well in front of this as new banks. So many ways to bring together the solution. Yeah, in the chat you asked about Flutter API. You meant probably Flutter SDK libraries. Yes, we are producing them actually. Now we offer native Android and iOS SDKs. We also offer a full documentation of NFC protocol if you wanna go hardcore. We have also opened and open sourced a Cordova SDK and we are launching Flutter. Yeah, because this way we already have a CBDC integrated into our platform with the Flutter app. Yeah, Flutter is coming. Actually, we can even give you early access to the SDK. Of course. Yeah, we can try it. Great. So I think John's question was on point about the card for a card price and James has replied that you can go down to three to four dollars a card at scale. Well, actually, even nice. I mean, three, four card is if you wanna buy a few hundred thousand cards, but at central bank scale, then the order of management we're talking about is that a Tengem car is competing against the production of a $100 bill. This is really accessible. When you start making millions, then of course, what we already had to commit to millions of production just in order to get where you are, but when you start going another order of magnitude high, then you can really lower the prices to the point where it's an over-anner for a... No, no, a few millions, like tens of millions. I'm just kidding. No, the goal is to produce six billion, obviously, but at that time it would probably need seven billion, but at this pace. But the point is that it has to be an over-anner. Why would you produce a bank note where it costs as much or comparable to produce a digital wallet that is non-controversyable, that it supports all sort of programmability into it? We talked about programmability of using and spending cash, but once it's programmable, then you can tie into it all sort of services like national health insurance, lending, all sort of privately and publicly available services. And in fact, one of the things we're doing today is also working closely with the identity working group at Hyperledger and also Trust Over AP, the Centralized Identity Foundation, because we have adapted our cards to also be a credential wallet for self-sorting identity. So in a different card or even the same card, you can have literally the Central Bank digital currency wallet, your credentials for education, credentials for driving lessons, credentials for social security benefits rights, and all the medical card with private credentials that are not shared, if not with institutions. So it's really powerful what you can build once you have a platform that natively can run asymmetric cryptography only with NFC power. Noted for a battery, no batteries involved. Great. Not Australia, but no batteries. You know, I had worked on a crazy project in the 90s called OneCard, that was to converge all the cards that you have in your pocket into OneCard. But it was a little too advanced for its time. And now it looks like you've brought it to fruition and I'm so glad to see that. We actually did it. We could do it, but since many of the card issues were sitting on top of their networks and they didn't want this kind of a disruption at that time, that was in mid 90s. Anyway, back to our thing here. We are almost a time or maybe a slightly over time. Thank you Sergio and thank you James for showing up and thank you for the opportunity. You gave us a great overview of your card. I think many people are not aware of the power of what is there in SmartCards. They do not still understand. At that time when we were doing it in the 90s, SmartCards were available in Europe, but here it was all stripes. Then it started getting developed, but even now the SmartCards that we have in our pockets are not fully, the power is not fully being utilized. A couple of things, one is, oh, Kirti is gone because I wanted him to make a small announcement about this insurance subgroup that we are starting. And by the way, Sergio, I'm also the chair of the identity working group. So, you know, when you have some time later on, we can talk about the credentials business in that group later on. Thank you so much. Thanks to John. Thanks to money. Thanks to David. Thanks to Sonia. Everybody who's on the call, who's left on the call. I'll post up the video soon. Maybe by this evening. Thank you. All right. Thank you. This has been very good. Anyone feel free to reach out. Sergio at tangent.com. I'm very happy to talk. Bye. Bye.


Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching the breakfast on plus TV Africa right now It's time to take our hot topic and this talks about ex-governance lawmaker's others demanding new constitution for Nigeria Joining us to have a conversation is justice away with his a human rights lawyer joining us from a budget. Good morning sir Thank you for joining us Thank you Okay, so we're talking about the Nigerian Constitution and now many have said that the Constitution is a little bit obsolete There are a lot of things that just don't it's not necessary anymore And we need some form of Reconfiguration for the Constitution and especially if we're looking at a renewed hope I mean that's the era we are now in so we're talking about a renewed hope over talking about prosperity for Nigeria A lot of people say we need to look at our Constitution and try to look for ways to just rejig it if I can use that word But first I mean you are a human rights lawyer, so definitely you have access to the Constitution You know what it's all about. You've probably read it What do you think about the Nigerian Constitution? Would you agree that it is a little bit obsolete? I may not be advocating for Scrapping up The whole Constitution For me the 1989 Constitution as amended also has some Good provisions in the Constitution, but there are also some provisions in control that are already absolute and again We need to amend if I will need to continue amending the Constitution in order to be in funding with the development and norms of the society because as the society grows the law grows along with the society So I believe and I agree to the fact that the Constitution at this point in time needs a serious and holistic amendment Okay, so speaking about a serious and holistic amendment like you've said What do you think are some specific specific lines or Specific areas of the Constitution that you think according to you I mean, this is just your own opinion that you just probably think we need to amend this Well, first of all, I believe We should also look at it before the Constitution We talked about it from the mental human rights There are certain things we should look into there. Then we'll also look at the Directed principles which The the position may not be just visible So we need to look at this also so that that session of the condition for me It should be just visible at first. I'm confined If we look at it, then we also look at the executive powers, you know the Constitution compare a couple of hours to the presence of the governor's and other we should also look at all those areas because I think the Executive they are using that area of that section of the country stop and also It is a that area will look at how we can work at them the powers of the executive and Secondly, we should also, you know, have a realistic approach of the condition so that we can also have some other provisions for example the Consulate provided for Federal collector and all the re-metals as I as me and you know or if you don't know me I know that we are not using in any way comply with the positions of the consul and secondly, I think we should also look at Inspiring a position with the consul that will also make it criminalize it when people do not really abide by the position of the consul whether the executive, whether the legislature or whether the district so that there will be a penalty for people who abide the position of the constitution So how easy is it to draft a new constitution or even Just amend this constitution Who are the key factors does the public have any role to play or is it just some select few that just comes together and say We want to amend this constitution and this is what we want to do. What is the process like? I just want you to walk me through it That is they are they are they are major functions As far as the law is concerned But you should also remember that That's why they are there they are representing people. They are representing the total zone Federal zone Consistency and all the way and it is also the law that Why you are here if there is going to be a measurement or anything that is going to happen You should take a call go and consult with your constituency That's what we call public opinion And consulting with your constituency They have the stakeholders meeting, they have the town hall meeting, you know, people will be carried along People will say that at their own institute and all the way The national assembly members go back home, consult their constituencies, have town hall meetings with them and all the way So they are the Faddle the responsibility of amending the constitution of the bulk their major function is to make law on the country So what are some if you were to criticize the Constitution? I just need maybe like two or three If you are to criticize this current constitution that we have and say we need to change that what would be your own criticism To the Constitution and what would be some things that you personally would add so for instance One of these lawmakers has come to your constituency and you're trying to give your own public opinion and say This is what we want, especially for my own constituency. What are some things that you would want to put in there? For our personally Advocate that we We actually have one single Instead of the feelings and the national and the and the house of wealth because it is money-consuming I thought I'm confined if I if you look at this very well The most you must have been the same thing I thought I'm concerned. Yes. They are doing the same thing. So why why that and secondly? We should also look at the power conferred on the on the police assembly and all the way So the You know movement of the book at the test system We are not a game pass for me I'm also Advocate that will also look at the the process of the calling Recalling a little bit of if you come back home in this color that it is a mission almost important for you to recall Representing people because the the essence of Democracy that when somebody is a lecture I've been elected by the people and the person goes there and nothing what the people wanting to do that should be You know and have the news The the citizens will Recall a person, you know and maybe put in a letter for the best the the process here is so combatsom We also want us to look at the powers of the executive like I've said We are the president almost has when I call it 99.9% of the powers in Nigeria and all the way, you know the power to appoint these appoint the behind-the-cham and appoint the The CDN Because for example, if you say that I know he's independent in Nigeria and the present also The opportunity of appointing the next time and we're not moving forward. That is not democracy I thought I'm concerned. So we'll have to look at some of this was a and so many other things that will the country forward because People are moving forward. We cannot, you know, stay behind I mean, I like the fact that you just highlighted the president's being able to appoint all of these people right in power and Because that was even something I was going to ask something about power distribution Because if you look at you know this for instance, maybe we've been talking about the state's police For a while now, but if you look at it the power is centralized with the IGF police We have just one IGF police and that everyone comes under him So do you think this constitution will be able to, you know, just address issues like power distribution Resource control and federalism as a whole because this is supposed to be the federal Republic of Nigeria Do you even think we're practicing that at the moment and if this constitution will be able to address such issues? Yes, we know that everybody in this country knows that Nigeria is certainly a Republic of Nigeria, but we're not even passing through federalism. That is just for the same And that is why I say that We should also have it as a law that so that when you are in office and you are not in funding Or comply with the provisions of the constitution, it should be, it should be criminalized It should remain a criminal offense so that people will know and people can pay for what they have done So if we want to continue something as a decision for anybody that is coming in So as I am concerned, we are supposed to set out all these things policies to what is called true democracy and true federalism But let me tell you one thing, through federalism, you cannot talk about democracy without true federalism And that is why today, we want to approach it in Nigeria today, whether we like it or not is what I call party democracy So we must look at all the things holistically and tell ourselves the truth The problem we have is that we don't want to tell ourselves the truth Anybody that enters as a president, we want to move into our own way Why? Because of the power that the constitution has been voted in the president Or also, you know, that position of the president of the federal republic of Nigeria That is all the truth Okay, so have there been any way where we've tried to amend this constitution in the past? Was it successful? And you know, do you even know of any other country that have been able to do this over time? And then they get like very good results on this Yes, of course, if you remember, when we were, I think before it was 1989 constitution, before we got to 1999 And even before that time, there have been three of them, and basically my problem is this We have normally told the key areas where we are supposed to have a policy amendment In order to make sure that there is true democracy and true federalism If you like to talk about countries, look at countries like Burkina Faso and some other African countries that are moving for look at South Africa, for example The former president of South Africa is even having a wealth and life because of the constitution Because the constitution is not a set up of any man The constitution respects things even more, we are respecting some people His family is telling the truth People have always argued and have always even argued That there are two sets of laws operating in Nigeria One for the poor and one for the rich Yes, we are saying that democracy is all about rule of law And what is rule of law equality before the law? And you and I know that in this country, everybody is not equal to the law We are not like trying to practice this animal family That all animals are equal but some are more equal than others That is the point where I mean and it is only the constitution that can solve this problem So, well we are not all equal clearly as you said You know the constitution is for some people But then But we are supposed to be all equal That is the policy before the law What should be all equal? If the president can be said Okay, you remember in the time of the original currency When you were accused of the state standard and all the way I mean, it is a country No, anybody has seen it We could think of it as a country where it becomes a unique country But how do you expect that country to move forward? Okay, so my next line of question talks about the public The civil society, organizations, the public What role do we have to play to ensure that the constitution is holistic Like you rightly said We need one that is not just for some select few people Or that you know kind of protects Because in a way it seems the constitution is drafted In such a way that it protects some people It gives immunity to some people We want something that it makes everybody equal And the constitution is no exporter of anybody Everyone has to respect this constitution So what is the civil service organization and the general public What role do they have to play in all of this To ensure that we have a better constitution in Nigeria As you're asking this question, I'm not laughing Nowhere I'm laughing Why? Because let me tell you People may not like what I would say You may not But it is your opinion So you should be able to speak freely Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I know, but you see I am in that field I know what I'm saying And I know what we are going to The truth of the matter is that We lack what I call security of purpose Yes, many people who see today That say they are civil society organizations They have human rights, lawyers, human rights They are just giving them for their selfish interests And that is why when any of them Or any group of them gets one political appointment Of God, I see that they don't do anything against So that is why I talk about lack of sincerity of purpose Because life is just for being For the totality of the nation We are supposed to be looking at How to salvage this country How to provide grants for our children And our children, yes, are gone If you go to the Western world Most of the countries today That they are failing to deal with Do not give them any time So how are you working for? Who are you trying to make the society to be better for? Why do you not give them our children? They're here We do have children Nobody is talking about losing a legacy And a good film work Because everybody thinks Getting a zoo has a position Maybe your children have this issue of one weapon control The other is the best We are shifting ourselves on the leg But not to worry about it Nigeria is our home And nobody can come here to do it for us Or to better it for all who must do it ourselves So what I'm trying to say And I'm doing here And I am still here At times, let me tell you the truth It is even for people To really be called at a time What you are even exciting for The topology of what you are fighting for For the interests of the people The people, you have probably Some of them you are fighting for Is it the ones that are getting you What the nation? But that is the truth So what we need is what I call Sensuality of purpose And because of the kind of government we are running Everybody wants one way or the other To get into government By act or by omission By roof or by cook Everybody now believes that it's the national case Let me go and take my own So we can continue this road We must tell ourselves the truth It's really, it is not better during my time But we should be able to be happy And to be proud That even though we live this road Our names will be written on gold Our names will be remembered Let me give you an example I am from Imoltec The best government we are running in Imoltec Is Lich Dr. Pam Omnat Well, there's something wrong with the internet provider I guess And we've seemed to have lost this audio Because it's cracking Anyway, so we've just been talking about Drafting a new constitution So some ex-governors, some lawmakers Have come out to speak on the Nigerian constitution And how we need to probably re-jig it How we need to reconfigure it Maybe not change it entirely But have some specific line items To ensure that it is a holistic one for everyone And so we've just been talking with Justice Wig With a human rights lawyer He was joining us from Abuja And just having the conversation And in fact, my final question was going to be How do we start to push the government To ensure they have this new constitution One of the constitution reforms Do we have Justice Wig right now? Hello, sir Okay, finally Okay, so I was going to ask you What are some potential impacts We can see with a new constitution Like positive impacts And how do we even start to push the government For this new constitution For a constitutional reform Or reconfiguration If I can say that So what are some positive impacts That everyone in Nigeria would definitely see And even feel as well If we have a new constitution If we have an amended constitution That is now holistic Fine, a point of call Let me say to you that I go back Like for example If at least little they are sincere to themselves They can do the job What they can do They have nothing there That is why they were elected That is why they are there And when you have a proactive president Even the amendment comes up And gets the results for action You should not hesitate to sign it Because everybody knows what is good And when you look at it Very well You see The excellent and the major advantage Of this good constitution Is that it will carry everybody along It will make all the citizens to feel belong It will make all the citizens to feel You know to feel like This issue of I am from here I am from here So let me shock you I propounded a theory Which I call the wonder bill And that is the only thing that can solve The major problem of this country I know you will be asking me What is the wonder bill Yes I am about to ask you that Enlighten me Let me give you an example One Let me give you an example And an insight of the wonder bill Okay Even you When you were looking for a job Or even said that for a set of Federal agencies, ministries Say, look at me Once you are doing a firm system If you say so for your name Your name and other names The next thing you see, look at me The next thing you see is set of origin You see where our problem lies In the profession Why are you asking me my set of origin? Why you should ask me nationality? I am an Nigerian You can not go to America And ask somebody Are you from where he studied He is from Florida Or New York He will tell you I am from United States of America That gives you That confidence to say that you are a citizen of America Right See nationality, you write Nigeria That gives you the confidence To know that you are a citizen of federal public of Nigeria And not in Europe Not in Europe Not in Europe And then the reason I ask you Is that you are a religion Let's leave that one Then this issue of set of origin What for? Right You are really reviving the country yourself The government is already reviving the country itself Let people to know that they are from Different tribes of ethnicity Instead of making people in your mind As one, as Nigerian That is what I call the wonder girl And that is the only thing That can save this country Okay But I want to leave you The moment an outside man An human man A human man Or whatever it is Be going to see him or herself As a Nigerian And not as a tribal citizen Your problem is nationality itself Well, I hope that would work And I hope that would You know possibly be in a constitution The wonder bill as you've just said But yes, this is where we have to wrap it up On this segment We want to say thank you for coming It was nice having a conversation with you Thank you so much Thank you very much All right, have a nice day We've been speaking with Justice Uig Who is a human rights lawyer I was joining us from Abuja And we've just been talking about The Nigerian constitution And how ex-governors are lawmakers You know, I've just called for Demanded in fact for a new one We're still looking at it Maybe we can have a new one Or we can just amend it But we never know We'll just see how it develops Anyways, we have to go on a short break And when we return We'll be looking at our second hot topic Please stay with us


I respectfully acknowledge that I'm standing on the unceded traditional territory of the Comox and Qualicum First Nations. I thank them for the use of their lands and I want to express my sorrow for the victims of the residential schools. On a recent version of a raycast, we were asked to express our favorite tacit descriptions. Tacit is a way of showing a verb or a function without using variables. So it's also called point-free. You're just using the functions to express what you want to do. You're not worried so much about the variables. And by the way, you structure the functions, you can make them do different things. And that starts to get into the combinatorial logic and those kind of things. But to start with, this is just tacit. Now one of the things I have always found it difficult to do, and I'll just give an example. If I want to say double, this is the verb for double, double three, and then I want to link it to half of four. Now I don't have to put parentheses off this because execution in J is right to left. So it's going to say four, half of four, link to what's in the parentheses, double three, and I get it with six, two. So I've got two boxes, one with six and one with two in it. That's what I want to do. Now you can do this with a fork, however, it's a bit complicated. And the reason it's a bit complicated is because before you, and I'm actually going to do this tacitly, let's put a three in here to start with. So that's my left argument. And then what I want to do is I do want to double a three, but in order to see a three and not a four, I need to do the left verb. So what this part is doing now is it's looking at the three. This is looking to the left, and it's going to double it. The link stays in the middle, and then to the right, I have to do look to my right. And then that's where I'm going to put the four, this argument here. So what this is doing now, and this is a tacit form. So that means I can define this, and I will later, I'll define it as a variable. And then it would act just the way this verb does. I don't care about what these outside things are. What I'm caring about is I'm telling it to look to this side and look to this side, half this side, double this side, put it together. So I can do that. But I've got these extra little ceremonies in place to do what I wanted to do. And as I said before, what I'll do for fun, I'll do this, I'll go T equals, copy that. And now if I go three, T four, I get the same thing. So that's the advantage of having something tacit. Now that is tacit. That's all valid and everything. I could have stayed with that, but I would have been thinking about it. And I've always thought, I've always been really interested in hooks. And the way hooks work is if I do this, and what we're going to, we were going to half four, weren't we? Okay. So this together, just two verbs, not three, which is a fork, but two, which is two verbs, and it's dyadic hook. So this is a hook because it's got two verbs. And it's dyadic because it's got two arguments. What happens here is this verb will act only on the four. And then it takes the result and it acts on this verb with the three. So essentially what I end up doing here with this type of a hook is I've got three linked to half of two, half of four, which is two. So that's what it's going to do. But you can see it's only changing the four because hooks are not symmetric. They're one sided. What I really want to do is I want to go and change this side. In order to do that, I've got a thing called a left hook. And what a left hook does, if in place of this, I replace it with this, I'm effectively going to end up changing the three, but not the four, because I'm only changing the left side, just like that. So how is it doing that? Well, this is where it starts to get a bit more complicated. These adverbs here, this tilde is called passive. And when it's dyadic, it's got two arguments, its job is to switch the two arguments. So as soon as I see that, I'm putting the three over on this side and the four over on this side. So let's do that. I'm just going to do that again. And I'm going to get rid of this. So I'm getting rid of the thing that it did, which is a flip. Put the three over here and the four over here. So I have done the flip, and now I'll do it again. And I've got the same result. Why did I get the same result? Well, because now I'm just dealing with a standard hook, with one little twist over here, but a standard hook, it's going to double the three. And then it's going to link to the four from this side. But this is where this passive comes in, because I've got two arguments. I want to switch them back, because if I didn't switch them back, this is what would happen. Oh, I threw it in zero there just a second. That's just confusing. If I didn't switch them back, this is what would happen. I wouldn't get six, four. I would get four, six. So I have to do the switch here. Just do these guys again. I have to do the switch here. And that makes it double the three. And then the switch back again to put them in the right order. So I've got this left hook thing. And I've got a right hook, which I used up here. And that starts to give you a clue about how we can do a different operation on each of these at the same time. What I'm going to do is I'm going to substitute for this link here. Instead of doing just the link there, I am going to copy this. And I'm going to substitute in a hook here. So now I've got a hook within a hook. The outside hook is a left hook. The inside hook is the regular right hook. And what I've done is I've doubled six, and I've halved four, and I've linked them together. And I've done it with just the three original verbs. I've used two adverbs. And I've used a hook within a hook. But based on that, I've actually been able to create the effect that I want, which is this, because of this part here, this reverse, this works on the three. And then this part here works on the four. And then this is all reversed back again. So that's my explanation of what I was trying to do with a hook within a hook. And you may know now why it was almost impossible to describe just verbally. I'm hoping it's a little bit clear. I think I'm going to be doing another video in a short while, because as I did this, I realized there's a few different flavors of this, and they are interesting as well. So stay tuned for that. I hope you enjoyed this video.


The reason that most people think they don't need Jesus. I'm a good person. They think they're good without God, but here's the problem. We often compare ourselves to the guy next to us, our neighbor. Oh, I'm better than him. But when we compare ourselves to God, we fall infinitely short. Okay, okay, I'm not a perfect person, but my good outweighs my bad. The Bible talks about God being a judge. Think about it. Would a good judge let a criminal go just because he walked a whole bunch of old ladies across the street? If he did, that judge wouldn't be good. We all need Jesus because on our own, we're guilty before God with no escape. Jesus took the penalty that we deserve for our sins against God, that if we put our faith in him, we will be declared innocent. We owed a debt we could not pay, and Jesus paid a debt he did not owe.


Today is day one of the Sprye Summer Scholars program, which is a week-long education program for high schoolers who are juniors and seniors. A really unique opportunity here in the Vale Valley. They do science projects with us in all six of our labs. They come here thinking that in the medical field, well, you could be a doctor, and that's about it. And they get to learn about all the different professions in the science of the medical field and also some other professions in the clinical side, like athletic trainer, physician's assistant. We have a few kids who have completed the program over the years that I'm still in touch with that have gone to college for all sorts of different professions in the medical field. And that's one of the really cool things. The Stedman-Philipon Research Institute and the Stedman Clinic are just so excited to have our local kids here and to be able to teach them about science and the medical field.


Welcome to ITU telecom world in Bangkok, Thailand. I have me today a mobler Johnson who is the Minister for ICT in Nigeria. Minister, welcome. Thank you for being with me today. Thank you very much for having me. Very interesting conference we're in talking about embracing changes in the digital world. I'm interested to know what you think of the biggest opportunities in the new digital world particularly in terms of Nigeria. I think for us in Nigeria the opportunities are the opportunity to leapfrog. Really not having to go through what developed economies have gone through particularly with the advent of the mobile phone and what you can do with a mobile phone or a smartphone. The opportunity to diversify our economy as we see the ICT sector growing by 30% and contributing more and more to GDP, creating wealth and creating jobs. There are just so many opportunities that this digital economy presents to countries like Nigeria and I think that we just have to embrace that wholeheartedly and ensure that we leverage those opportunities and actually deliver some real benefits from it. With so many opportunities are there challenges as well? How do you find and how do you know where to head? What direction to head in first? It's tough. It's tough. There are some challenges. First of all the fact that you know digital literacy is a challenge first. So as we grow the digital economy we've got to ensure that more Nigerians actually first of all have access and they have the knowledge and the capability to use these tools. The second challenge that we have is of course like most countries cybercrime. People are, it's what we call digital confidence. First of all you're not that familiar with these tools. Second of all you're afraid that your data is out there, anybody can get hold of it. You're afraid to do transactions on the internet because you think all your financial information is out there. So cybercrime is really one of the biggest threats I see for us really being able to embrace this digital economy. What are you doing in Nigeria that you think is different and enabling you to leapfrog save the developed countries? Well maybe not that different but maybe we're doing it faster than other countries may have done it. First of all we have a clear roadmap and a strategy for what we're going to do with broadband and also with the ICT sector in general. Second of all there's a big thing that we're doing and it's a digital awareness campaign. We're working very hard to build infrastructure to get to all the nooks and crannies of Nigeria, broadband, mobile, broadband, fixed wireless and all of that. But the big thing we're doing is a digital awareness campaign which is to let Nigerians know. This statistic we all quote 10% penetration equates to 1.3% GDP increase. That increase comes about when people actually begin to use the internet either to transact business or to build businesses upon and we need to get Nigerians to understand what the benefits of the internet are. And the one thing that we've seen and as I said earlier people know a lot about the the bad things about the internet, the cybercrime, child pornography, all of those things but we need to begin to showcase the good things about the internet so we can deliver this 1.3% increase in GDP. Does coming to events like this help you do that and help you get the information you need to challenge things? It does, it does. I think coming here every year the Nigerian Pavilion just gets bigger and bigger because they're doing much more and more in ICT. But I think coming here first of all is to showcase what we're doing but more importantly is to learn what's going on in the world. We get a chance to speak to some of the leading minds and thought leaders in the ICT sector. We get a chance to look at what other countries are doing and learn from that as well. We get a chance to interact in panel discussions and some of the the panel discussions that are going on and really just hear what's going on in the world and we take all of that back and see how we can use it to realign our policies, realign our thinking and ensure that we just continue to have this really fantastic growth in the ICT sector that we're witnessing today. Well it's great to have you here and thank you again for being with us. Thanks very much. Thank you.


Hello, welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier here in the Palo Alto studios for the CUBE. We had a great conversation around cloud cost optimization, FIN Ops, really important topic in the future of cloud management. We're here featuring N Ops with the founder and CEO, JT Geary, thanks for coming on today. CEO, thanks for coming on. Hey John, thanks for having me, good to see you again. So future cloud management is the topic. You guys were on the showcase before Saddam is on startup showcase. The category just exploded, FIN Ops is huge. Everyone's talking about FIN Ops, not FinTech, FIN Ops. That's cloud costs, everyone's right size and the cloud computing is going next gen. You're seeing the future of AI expanding, more apps are coming, it's not like it's going away, but people are tuning their clouds. You guys are catching the tailwind of this trend. Let's start by giving the audience an overview of what you guys do and your capabilities in managing infrastructure at scale. Yeah, absolutely. So N Ops is a FIN Ops platform. We focus on automation. John, I'm pretty sure you hear that often. One of the hardest thing to do in FIN Ops is like, how do you make it easy so engineers take action? So our focus is on automation. We have a unique pricing model. The platform is completely free like showbacks, chargeback, you know, all that functionality that is just included part of the platform and customers only pay if we save them money. So we just take a percentage of the savings. So that's the model that's like resonating really well because it allows us to, you know, focus on outcomes, focus on optimizing the cost for our customers. One of the things you mentioned, this is like the, you know, this is the thing that's top of people's mind right now. And the reason is because, you know, because the state of the economy, right? In last two, three years, it actually maybe it didn't matter, you know, if the spend was going up because stock was also going up, the revenue was also going up. Now all of a sudden there's this microeconomic, you know, which is really the impacting people to take a step back and see, you know, how can they optimize their cloud spend? Yeah, and I think the so-called recession that people are seeing in the technical market is get to profitability or be more profitable. And I think that is turning in a knob. So at least the queue we've been reporting in, as you know, cloud growth is kind of slowed down, but it's still growing, right? You got the next gen cloud with AI out, with AI coming around the corner, you're seeing people investing more in this kind of the next gen cloud, but they're reigning in their current cloud.   You want to turn everything off or optimize it so that it's all policy-based. This is the focus. And this is what we're talking about. This is where the action is, because they're squeezing more profit out of their operations because the cloud's elastic. That's the best part about it. That was the whole idea, right? One of the things actually we do is, you know, we look at all the dev environments and lab environments and we show developers pattern, right? You know, you only need this for Monday to Friday or you need it for only a few days a week. And we, you know, provide this one-click experience so they actually could pause these resources. And in some cases, they're able to save, in many cases, they're able to save a lot of money. And again, John, this is where, this is what cloud was originally intended for, right? But all of a sudden, you know, people that maybe get comfortable, you know, developers have other priorities, right? They have focus to release new features, more revenue generating, you know, work and then optimizing costs, right? So this is where like someone like Anops could come in and help to optimize the cost. But you're right, you know, the whole idea of cloud was you scale up and down based on the need. And somehow, you know, there's not a lot of people who practice that. And when you show the data to the developers and when you provide like a one-click experience, we do see people actually take action and they actually end up taking, saving a lot of money on their dev environments, on the elaborate environments, for example. You know, I read a survey, I can't remember who was the author or what the actual numbers were, but it was pretty high percentage of developers were leaving services on that were not being used or idle, so there's a lot of idle capacity, and or services that are being left on. Now, the nuance point here I want to get your thoughts on is that AWS in particular and all the hyperscalers, they're adding more services all the time. So it's easier to get, I won't say lost in the catalog of services, but like when you're slinging code as a developer, you can sometimes leave services on, if you get to turn them off, write some policy. So this is where the efficiency comes. This is where I think FinOps and like the DevSecOps environments are really seeing that day two operational thing. What are some of the areas that you guys work with? How do you go in and explain the value proposition? What's the pitch to the developers? How easy to get into it? And what's the low hanging fruit savings? And then where's the real action? Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, I think there's this lot of sort of pressure on engineers to reduce cloud cost in general, but John, you have to realize that engineers were never trained to optimize cloud spend, right? They were trained to solve like business problem or liability performance, right? This is like a new sort of problem that we're trying to solve and put more responsibility on them, right? Again, I think once you provide them tooling, where cost optimization is just as easy as provisioning resources, we do see engineers taking action. So how we're able to kind of have great impact is two ways. Number one, what we do is we make sure that customers are paying less for what they have provisioned. So when they provision resources, we are automatically like making the right commitments and if as they downscale or upscale we're actually adjusting their commitments. And that John could be a full-time job, right? Again, engineers are good at building stuff. Maybe they're not good at understanding AWS pricing plans. So our idea is to free them up so they don't have to manage these commitments on day-to-day basis. The second thing is after you're paying less, can you use less, right? Are there resources that you don't need? And this is where we provide automation to find resources. Again, the future of cloud management is AI and automation, right? So far the cloud management has been like, here's a recommendation, take action, no one does it, right? If we keep doing things like that, I don't think we're going anywhere. So the whole idea of ANOPS is we actually take actions because honestly, this is how we get paid. We only take percentage of the savings. So our motto is pay less. And then we constantly provide recommendations where customers could easily take action and they consume less, they use less and that's how they're able to optimize their overall cloud spend. Okay, so don't bury the lead story there.  Is that true? Is there a retainer at all or is there any up front? Or is it all on the back end with the customer?  Is that, take a minute to explain that key piece there. It's all based on the impact. So we take percentage of the savings. If we're optimizing your commitments, then we take savings compared to the on demand. And if we're pausing your resources, we're taking percentage of the amount of money we save. And if we run your workloads on spot, we obviously take a percentage of the savings compared to on demand. It's a powerful model, John. And we have a lot of happy customers. Again, what it really does, it drives focus on our end on one thing. One thing is like, how can we optimize costs for our customers? And I do believe that is the future of cloud management. I do believe this is how we can bring some automation and deliver a bigger impact in cost optimization on cloud. Yeah, I just read a survey and we've actually pulled some of our CUBE alumni database on this question. How many times has a DevOps engineer been called into the office of executive costs? And 60% have been pulled in. Okay, so that's one. The other thing that you've brought up is interesting about the DevOps developer is that if the security shift left, that trend is about guardrails and security. Here, it's the same thing. The developers want to have the operationally covered. So it's the same concept that's shifting leftist for security you're doing for operations and cloud management, right? And that's kind of the same concept, right? That's right. So we have to provide an experience to developers. So we get closer to how they work, right? So how do developers work? Most of their time is spent writing code, reviewing pull requests. So at DevOps, we do send pull requests and with cost optimization opportunities. So it's very, very easy for developers to kind of accept those recommendations. If we don't do that, yeah, it is hard to kind of meet where developers are actually, spending most of their time. So we will see a lot of that happening over next, hopefully five years. There will be a lot more tooling and that's where we focus on. How can we make it easy for developers to just take action with one click? As I've said, at least in KubeCon in many years on theCUBE, developers are going to drive the standards and drive the change. You see it happening in real time. They adopted a tool or a platform. It drives in the standard amount of what the feature is. If it drives it, drives it. I can see the advantage you guys have. Developers adopting, there's no risk, almost no risk. But at some point you have to sit down with the organization and say, here's how we're going to benchmark how we get paid. I'm sure they probably have some glaring problems. Could you give some examples of how you guys help do this with organizations and tie that to Amazon's best practices and benefits that they have? How do you, how does that all work? Take us through how the sausage is made. Yeah, many of our customers were actually saving them like 20 to 30% of their cloud spend. One of the things that we realized, John, once you free developers up, as you mentioned, there's 60% of the time they're getting called in to optimize the costs. And normally what happens if CTO is like, let's reduce costs, you bring in a developer, developers spend some time Googling and in addition to whatever else they're doing, right? That's how, this is like one more thing they have to work on now, right? What we noticed when people are leveraging Ennobs, we're able to reduce like in many cases up to 50% of their cloud costs and depending on how optimized they were before we got in. And all of a sudden, they don't have to think about this at all. This is totally on autopilot. We're constantly reaching out on resources that could be paused. We are maximizing their all right coverage. We're finding resources that could be run on spot and make it easy for them to move those workloads on spot. And all of a sudden this is on autopilot, you know? And now they can focus their energy on building, you know, stuff and, you know, focus on revenue generating activities pretty much. I'm sure this is a fun model. You optimize someone to a nice equilibrium. It's like, okay, you can't squeeze any more profit out of that, but it's still growing their cloud over here. You can just point the software over there. So great stuff. My final question for you is really more about, you know, this is a great solution. It's in line with what people are doing. It's certainly relevant and very cool right now to be turn those knobs to drive more profit, more cash flow and also take your developers off the mundane tasks and have them coding. Critical. I mean, this is like top of the top of the mind. How do organizations who are starting their FinOps journey, so to speak? What guidance can you provide? How do they get started with NOps? What benefits? How do they see out of the gate? Take us through that onboarding or prospect watching, thinking, hey, you know what? This is exactly my board conversation, my executive meetings, my team meetings are talking about this. Let's jump in and do some NOps. What's the story? Yeah. The first step is, you know, if you sign up for a free platform, we can look at your cloud data and kind of show you how we can save you money. By the way, John, we process like close to billion dollars in cloud spend. So this is all we do every day. So we're really good at figuring out ways to optimize, you know, cloud spend for customers. Step one, where I see a lot of success, once they see the data in NOps, we build a lot of functionality around like, how do you build showbacks? How do you distribute costs around, you know, across multiple teams and business units? We leverage machine learning for that. And, you know, most of the time, what I see like customers don't even have that kind of understanding. So once they do this like showbacks and cost allocation, then they develop this baseline. And then on top of that, we show, you know, what are the areas where we can, you know, optimize the spend for the customers. And normally it's one click where we can say, you know, just click here and we can literally save you, you know, $5,000 in month of May and maybe $20,000 next month, right? It literally requires our engineering effort. And we do this every week, you know, we're constantly sending like new recommendations and customers just have to do like one click to implement those. In many cases, you know, once you set policies, we take actions automatically. So it's really as simple as that. And just feel like there's nothing to lose here. You know, just- Hey, JT, you're making people's lives easier, more productive and you're giving them cash. Right to the bottom line. Yeah, exactly. They got nothing to lose.  I definitely, definitely love your business model. I mean, Phenom, I've always been a big fan and Phenos more than ever is going to be continually be tuning in. Final question for you, well, we got you here. Obviously, AI is a big part of the conversation. In that same survey, 55% are using AI today, just starting to put in place, you know, baby steps to get using AI with guardrails in ops. You're focused right now with AI. What's your view? Yeah, that's what we do, what we do, right? We're like, rather than managing commitments on spreadsheets, we have a model that automatically learns, you know, how we can maximize the commitments for customers. We find resources, patterns, depending on that. The model adopts to your workloads. And then we make those recommendations. Then obviously we use AWS event bridge to take action. But yeah, there's, we cannot do what we are doing without AI and machine learning, John.   I mean, that's, there's no way to do that, right? I'd be smiling if I was you too. What a great business model. And again, you got that data. And again, the data is a treasure trove too. That's going to give you more insights and signaling. Yes, yeah. And singular focus, right? Like how do we use this data to optimize customer spend? Because if we're able to do that, then we get paid. So we're like, we're focused on that. This is an example of the future of the clouds, a super application, great in line with developers. This is the future JT. Thank you for coming on this CUBE conversation. Looking forward to hosting you on the AWS startup showcase coming up and looking forward to second return for you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, appreciate it. Okay. I'm John Furrier here. The Palo Alto students with CUBE conversation. Talk about the future of cloud spend. This is where AI is going scale and the data are key. And this is what, what tuning up the internet is all about and cloud. I'm your host, John Furrier. Thanks for watching.


Why would we study law and government in our teenage years? One of the first lessons in this course is that you, on reaching your majority, will be part owner of the United States. You, along with other citizens, will own the U.S. government, the U.S. economy, and the legal system. Until this point, we have not been educated to support our ownership. We have a vast and wealthy nation, but other people are running it as our agents. Our traditional education supports us in voting for the right people. Owners don't just put the right people into authority, they tell those who represent them what to accomplish in their name. Our Constitution is a contract. It is an agreement by and among the citizens signed on our behalf by our representatives. This Constitution is not the highest authority in the land. You are. Neither the federal government nor the states are even legal parties to this contract. Do you have a clear understanding of the document that was signed in your name? Do you know what our leaders are to accomplish in your name and what was forbidden to them? The first rule of written contracts is their meaning is in the writing, it is not subject to interpretation. It means what we the people agree that it means. Wherever the writing is unclear, then we are not agreed on what it means, and any unclear parts of our contract are void. This is not a course in revolution. We do not revolt against a government that we own. We simply direct it to do whatever we can agree it should do. This course supports ownership in four ways. First, understanding what we own, especially our legal foundation. Second, understanding the human wants and needs and possibilities that will bring us to agree. Third, basic knowledge of management, how we assure that our government serves us. And last, how to manage changes that implement the will of the people. We start with one fundamental understanding that there is only one party in interest and it is us. The US government only exists to serve our interests. The US economy only exists to provide the citizens of this nation with a way to get what we need and what we want. The US system of laws has no purpose except serving us. We are the only party in interest. But there is even more in our wonderful nation and an understanding that we are not just the owners and customers of our nation. Our government is only authorized to act in our name, not as some sovereign ruler over us. Even as our economy only does what people do, our nation only does what we do. Over and wherever we find agreement, we become the only authority. The focus on our teenage years is a focus on the time when we will be preparing to become effective adult citizens. This course is empowerment. It is empowerment of a nation by empowering its people. Welcome to law and government for teens. This course is your citizens' owner manual for the United States.