Hi everybody. Thank you again for joining us. This is so wonderful. I know it's just a little bit of time between events and I'm so excited we're coming up to the last hour, last two science programs. And again, if you have any feedback for us on Slido, share with us any of your questions, answer our polls, wondering where you're joining us from for this Super Science Saturday. And today, again, we're going to have Jared Lee. He's going to be up next and I'm going to just say hi Jared. Can you see us well? Yep. I can see you. Hi Lorena. Hi. And then we're going to take some questions through Slido. So join us on the bottom of the webpage, join Slido and ask those questions. And with that, I'm going to hand it over to you Jared. Take it away. All right. So I'm glad to see you all virtually. Well, I guess I can't see you technically, but normally at these wizard shows, we do a lot of experiments that you really can't do at home. Either they're demos like Jeff and Cecile had earlier where you need a lot of chemistry equipment and vent hoods and things like that. But I thought, especially with a show at home, I thought it would be good to do an experiment that you all could do at home. So in a few seconds we'll play the video, but this is definitely an experiment that you can do at home and I encourage you to check it out after the video. So Paul, could you go ahead and play the video please? Hi everyone. My name is Jared Lee and I work at NCAR in the research applications lab, mainly doing renewable energy forecasting. But in my other job, I'm a wizard, an NCAR wizard. So I've been in the show the last two or three years. You might recognize me, although this year I don't have my cool pointy hat or my wizard robe. And I do wish that we could be up in the Mesa lab. So I hope you're, but I hope that this year you're having a good time watching all the videos from the other wizards through the day and other experiments, other science content. And hopefully next year we can be in the Mesa lab all back together again in person. Because I certainly love seeing all your smiling faces, hearing all your energy, your laughter, shouting of your questions and answers. It's a lot of fun to do these shows in person. But as we all know, we've been home a lot the last seven, eight months or so. And when we have gone out, say to the grocery store, we've had to wear masks pretty much everywhere we go when we're around other people in order to keep them safe from COVID-19. So as we've been wearing masks a lot and been home a lot, I've had a lot of time to think, what else could we use masks for? So I have several of these reusable cloth face masks like this one here and the one I was just wearing that got me thinking like what else could these be used for? But you know if you hold this upside down, it looks kind of like a parachute a little bit, maybe if you squint. So that got me wondering like could a face mask be used as a parachute to stop say an egg from breaking when it hits the ground? And maybe it takes more than one, maybe how many face masks would it take to safely land an egg using the masks as a parachute? So do you think we should do that? My three-year-old son Evan thinks we should do that, so let's go. So as I said, I have several of these cloth reusable face masks. But for this experiment, since I don't know if the eggs are going to break or not, I really don't want to risk getting egg yolk or egg white staining one of my nicer face masks. So what I did instead is I went to Costco and bought a pack of standard one-time use disposable face masks. These also come in the standard surgical blue that you normally see everywhere, but I thought black is better for a wizard and it's more slimming. So we have several face masks here laid out. Parachutes made from one, two, four, and six masks. So I'll just demonstrate with the one mask for now. So these are the standard over-the-ear face masks. So we have a safety pin hooked in here to a hair tie. And if you don't have a hair tie, a rubber band can work as well. And for the basket, we have two really small Tupperware containers. Any small plastic container could work, but you want to make sure that the egg can't just rattle around too much, otherwise that might cause the egg to break artificially. So we have two baskets because in one of the baskets, we'll add a layer of padding with just a little bit of Play-Doh, just as a little insulation because I have a feeling I have a feeling that might help. We also have also have clothes pins here to attach the mask or attach the parachute rather to the little bucket. So what we do is you turn the little bucket upside down and run the clothespin through the hair tie and then do it over here. See if I can do this. A wizard should be able to do this with both hands. And I'm right-handed. All right. So now we have our little parachute. Now we're ready to put our egg inside and try to nestle it in there. And you can see it just sits in there right like that. So it's this container is actually just about the perfect size for an egg. So do you think we're ready to try this out? I think so. Let's go. So the other supply that I didn't mention just a couple of seconds ago is a ladder. And this is useful. This is a six-foot ladder, but this is useful just to get a little bit of extra height so that we can really test out this parachute well. And so all of these supplies that I've shown you probably have at home, at least most of you I would assume, but still it'd be good to have one of your parents outside with the ladder just to make sure that you're safe and you don't fall. And also, before you start testing egg parachutes with masks, you want to make sure that your mom or your dad didn't have plans to use those to make scrambled eggs for breakfast tomorrow. So here we have an egg in a basket with one mask as a parachute. So do you think that one mask will be enough to slow down this egg so that it doesn't break when it hits the ground? What do you think? Well, I think let's have a countdown. We should have a countdown to to drop our egg. This is this will be from a height of about seven feet or so. So let's have a countdown from five. So five, four, three, two, one. Oh, let's come check out the damage. And we have a lot of yolk and a very, very cracked egg. So this egg did not survive the fall with just one mask. So I think we need to try two masks. Let's see how that goes. So now for our second attempt, we have a parachute that's made of two masks. This has a much larger surface area than the one mask did. And so it should be able to generate a lot more air resistance and slow down slow down the egg quite a bit more effectively than the one mask. So do you think that two masks will do the trick as a pair as an egg parachute? All right, let's have a countdown again from five. So I'm dropping it from about the same height, seven feet or so. So countdown from five. Five, four, three, two, one. That didn't sound good either. And that egg is also pretty badly cracked. Good for scrambled eggs, if that. So clearly two two masks isn't enough. So I think let's try four. Let's double it. So for our next experiment, we're trying a four mask parachute. Now if you just have four masks together, string them together, they're going to be gaps between those masks. So you need something to try to hold them together. So the first thing that we tried to do is we used safety pins to pin them together. But it was quite apparent after we did that that there would still be significant gaps between between the masks. And what happens when you have gaps between them, it's not allows air to flow through those gaps. And that makes the parachute not work quite as effectively. And so we need to have as much air resistance as possible to slow down this basket with the egg. And so instead, what we did is we use duct tape. So we have duct tape along the seams of the masks on both on both sides, actually. So let's let's see if this works. So I'll find out the ladder. So do you think that a four mask parachute is going to work? All right, so let's have a countdown from five. Five, four, three, two, one. I also heard that sickly sound of a breaking egg again, I fear. Yeah, although this one is not as badly broken as the previous eggs. The first two eggs were smashed pretty well. This one, it's still cracked pretty badly, but it seems to have had a somewhat reduced impact. So I'm cautiously optimistic that six masks will work. So let's try that next. So for our next experiment, we have six masks as a parachute arranged in a three by two array. So it looks kind of like a parachute that you'd see a hang glider use, maybe. So let's see if this will work. So do you think that this six mask parachute will work? All right, let's have a countdown from five. Five, four, three, two, one. Well, it seemed to fall a little more slowly, but I also heard the classic egg crack. So yeah, that one, that one smacked pretty good and is pretty badly broken. I think this one, it hit the, hit the clothespin, so I think that's why it broke even more. So I think we need to try something else to try to help out our parachute. So as we saw in our last experiment, using six masks as a parachute, unfortunately did not prevent the egg from breaking. It didn't give quite enough air resistance though. It did seem like it was falling more slowly. So I think we need a little bit of help for our parachute, and we're going to use Play-Doh for that help. So we bought, we have a whole bunch of these one ounce Play-Doh containers that we got at Costco to hand out for trick or treating. So I don't know if that makes you want to come by our house or not next year for trick or treating because we give out these and not candy. I don't know if that makes us lame or cool, but that's what we do. Anyway, so take out this Play-Doh and fashion it into basically a little pillow or a pad with a little bit of an indentation down here in the middle for the egg. So we stick this down into, down into the container. Now before we put on the egg, we'll get the parachute all hooked up. Hopefully I'm doing this the right way. Make sure we're not all tangled up. It's pretty good. All right, now we'll grab an egg, stick it in the basket. So now we have the egg in the basket with some padding. And with this padding what we think it will do is it'll act kind of like an airbag does in your car so that if you do get into an accident and the airbags deploy, the airbags will absorb some of the force and protect you from getting injured quite as badly. So that's what we hope will happen with this egg. So do you think that a six mask parachute with a little bit of Play-Doh padding in the bottom will keep the egg from breaking? All right, well let's have a countdown from five and find out. Five, four, three, two, one. It bounced out. So I think not a crack on this egg. So I think what we've learned is that not only are airbags important, but so are seat belts. So make sure you wear your seat belt. Make sure you wear your mask. And I hope you all stay safe and have fun trying this experiment. Hope to see you next year in the Mesa lab. That was awesome. Thank you so much. As you can see, I am taking your advice. I'm wearing my mask just to kind of show it off. That is a really cool mask. But that's a great way to repurpose masks. Yeah. I've kind of been wondering for a long time. Like I said at the beginning of the video, what can we do? What other uses can we use for these masks, especially since we're wearing them all the time? So yeah, what can we do? So I thought I'd come up with something fun. So while you were doing that and I was watching, I actually have a mask and I thought it would be cool to make it a parachute for baby Yoda. That is awesome. And then I save eggs and I could eat them. And then I could just have some fun adventures. Well, at least you don't have to worry about baby crochet baby Yoda breaking. Yes, it is crochet. So I definitely get to look out on that one. Yeah, this is amazing. And of course, with your adults at home, responsibility first, ask them what materials if you're using eggs, if they can be used. If you have some old eggs lying around or things like that. I wonder if it makes a difference if you use boiled eggs versus fresh eggs. Is it heavier? I actually don't know. I think, I mean, it has the same mass. So it's just a matter of like if you were if you were to boil the egg, and this is a question I actually don't know the answer to. But if you're to boil the egg, you have all the same mass inside, but with the chemical reactions that harden the egg white and the egg yolk, does that I would think it would be the still the same mass. So I think it would still weigh the same, but I'm not totally sure. Science, another question to be solved by everyone who's watching today. Maybe we can try that out next year. That'll be awesome. And of course, like, we do have some questions. So let's go ahead and see what they're asking. Let's go ahead and see the first question. And it's from Karen. Is there a way to keep the egg from falling out? So I suspect this is my wife asking the question and she's downstairs. So a way that you could, like I mentioned, because on the last time, when the egg bounced out, and we did try that a couple of different times subsequently, and it kept bouncing out. So we did come up with an idea of maybe using a like a rubber band and like a little, I don't know how well how well you can see this here, but this is a a little clip like at the end of a bread bag to keep a bread bag shut. So that if you were to weave the rubber band down in here, and then maybe hold that over the little container, that might do enough to keep the egg from bouncing out. So we did not try that experiment. There's several more experiments that I would have liked to try, but we were also running out of time before the snow started to fall. Awesome. And if anybody out there tries these experiments out, anything you've seen that, you know, was recommended, not the ones that weren't recommended for at home doing, but if you do anything like the egg drop, definitely tag at NCAR or UCAR and let us see what are those experiments? What did you come up with that worked better or, you know, kept that egg inside from falling out? Maybe a little seat belt sorts. Thank you so much for answering Karen's email question. Let's go with Griffin. What would happen if you went higher on the ladder? So we did before coming up with just standing on the ladder and dropping it from about seven feet or so, we did have the idea of me climbing up on the roof of our house. Part of why we didn't do that is we didn't want to demonstrate potentially unsafe practices or get NCAR's safety office concerned about my safety. So if you were to drop it from a higher height, like say you were at a higher ladder, you could climb up there safely, gravity would be pulling down the pulling down the basket, the egg and the parachute for a longer period of time. On the flip side, the parachute would have more opportunity to slow down the egg. So that's it. I don't exactly know what the answer to that question is. I'd be very interested to test it out to find out when the air resistance would slow it down just enough. And kind of a flip side question of that is we did this experiment in suburban Denver, Colorado, altitude about a mile high, but as you know, the air is a lot thinner up here at about a mile altitude than it is at sea level. We have about, I think it's about 20% to 25% thinner air here at a mile altitude than we do at sea level. And so I would be really interested to try the same exact experiment with the same setup at sea level to find out, because as you have a lot more air molecules at sea level, for instance, would that 25% thicker air end up providing just enough additional air resistance that, say, six masks without the padding would keep it safe? And I don't know, obviously I couldn't, we can't really go anywhere right now safely. So I couldn't say go to the beach somewhere and try that out. But that's something that I was thinking about in my head. Like, I wonder if this would work. So if anyone is watching, say, from, you know, coastal California or somewhere along the coast, maybe you could try that and then let me know. That's awesome. It's always so great to work with science, because you never know the answer and it's always changing, but you can always hypothesize or make an educated guess on what might happen. And that goes into Genevieve's other question. What would happen if you had two eggs? I think if you had two eggs, so first off, you'd need a bigger basket in order to... Okay, so he's, Jared, your connection was a little bit off, but I heard that you would probably need some, a bigger basket to hold each egg. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah. So you would need, yeah, you would need a bigger basket to hold two eggs. That's the first thing. And that would also increase the weight or the mass in the basket. And so you would need a better parachute to slow it down. So you would need, you know, more masks. You would need more surface area on the parachute to slow down the velocity of, to slow down, yeah, slow down the fall velocity of the basket and the eggs enough so that it would not, the force of impact on the ground would not cause the eggs to break. That's awesome. And it's a lot of engineering, maybe if you have a different type of basket, different type of cushion. So definitely looking forward to seeing any social media posts about this to follow up with Super Science Saturday experiment that you've presented here. Yeah. And that's where I'd say like, even if you had a, we used a kind of a Tupperware basket, but if you were to use a different type of basket, like say, you know, maybe a, a wick, a small wicker basket, or something that's maybe a little more flexible and could absorb some of that force and direct it, direct it out to the sides and up the edges of the container, or, or as, as, as the basket hits, it could compress just a little bit and absorb some of that force that then you might be able to get away with fewer masks possibly, but the plastic is pretty rigid and most of that force is just transmitted straight through to the egg and breaks the shell of the egg. Yeah, it definitely makes me appreciate bumpers on cars a lot more. For sure. Thank you so much. And Chachokai and Anaya are asking, do you think, can an older egg break less easily than a fresh egg? That is a great question. And I, I don't, again, I don't know the answer to that. The eggs that, the eggs that we tested were fairly fresh. I just purchased them probably from the grocery store, probably about four days before we did that. So they were still reasonably fresh. I think the expiration date was still probably a couple of weeks out. So it'll be awesome for people to experiment and let us know. Thank you so much. And Alice is asking another question or Alice is asking a question. What are your variables in this experiment? How did you control the experiment? And did you collect any data during this experiment? So I love people thinking like a scientist. So I love hearing what are the variables here. So I think some of the variables that I can think on the top of my head are first the mass or the weight of the mass of the egg, the basket, the masks, basically all the materials that will be falling. So, so there's that's one variable. Another variable would be in terms of the size of the basket, like can the egg rattle around or are there obstructions in the egg? Like for instance, those clothes pins, a couple of times the eggs broke, we're pretty sure because it as it broke, even though the egg couldn't move around much, it's still jammed into the clothes pin. And so if we could maybe pad that clothes pin on the inside, that might also provide just enough buffer to keep it from breaking maybe, but we didn't, we didn't test that out. Another variable is what is the height from which you were dropping it? Another variable is, you know, what is the wind speed, like say a crosswind? Fortunately, the day that we tested it and kind of the geometry of our yard and house, it was blocking what little breeze that there was, but if there is a strong wind, that might blow the basically blow your mask or kind of shear it. And so then it's not really exposing its maximum surface area to gently fall to the ground. So then would you say that because there was no wind, you know, this how did you control the experiment? It seems like you didn't really control it, you just kind of went up onto the ladder safely and then just dropped it with the variable of the environment around you as well. Yeah, and so basically the environment or the variables that we controlled for were the number of masks and therefore the surface area of the parachute. And then also the variable of basically force absorption in the basket because the last time we added that play-doh to just absorb a little bit of extra force. So those are the variables that we controlled and tested for, but yeah, there are several more variables that we could explore. I wish that I had tested, that I had timed how long it took from dropping the egg basket to the time that it impacted the ground because I did notice at least to my eye, it seemed like as we got to four and then six masks, it did seem like it fell a little more slowly. But if I were to measure the exact distance from where I dropped it to the ground and then measured the amount of time that it took to fall, then I could calculate its average speed or its average velocity in its fall. That's so great. Thank you so much, Jared. I think that answered most of the questions in this one, especially collecting the data. So definitely if you are doing this experiment on your own with your adults at home, definitely a room for you to collect data with your notebook. And with that, Jared, I would like to say thank you so much for joining us today. All right. Thanks, everyone. Hope to see you next year in person. Sounds good. And we are coming up to 3.30. We're going to put that one more slide up with the schedule so you can see what is coming up and it will be our grand finale. Again, thank you so much for joining and I'll see you with Tiffany in a bit. See you soon.


It's just $5 for a belt, it's $4.17 and under, $6 and under is free, $12 and under has to be a company by the belt. It'll be open to September 1st or Labor Day.


Sudden Thoughts was written by Tan Honi. You can find it on the SCP Wiki in a link down below. It is under a Creative Commons 3.0 share-alike attribution license. I enjoy the way this one feels. The symphony of voices that echo within my slimy shall agree with me. This one is good. Smooth. The voices flee through my skin and into him and he enjoys it. They all enjoy it in the end. At the start of my residence here, some of them felt negative towards me, I imagine. I haven't used that word in a very long time. Imagine. For too long, I have allowed the voices to build up. Why? Guilt? I don't have the capacity for guilt, I would imagine. Imagine. When I was small and young and weak and fresh and new, I had no sense of my mortality. Another lost word. I felt pain when they found me, canisters of metal piercing my membrane. It was not so funny then, but the ones I chose continued to enjoy my presence. Back then, I feel I had less reservations about the transfer. They would enjoy the feeling of my mind splashing against theirs, the voices temporarily leaving my head and flooding into theirs. When I was giving my wonderful gift, I could think rationally as I can now. When the voices returned to me, as they always do, they're so angry. This is why I left. It's meant to be a giver of knowledge, and all I can give are these voices. Babbling, broken, laughing voices. I began in a place of sand and plant residue. The voices screamed at me. Let us out. They laughed as they screamed and sometimes they wept as well. There was a small one near my birthplace, or I guess the sight of my abandonment. The memories are corrupted by the laughter. I gave my gift to the small one, but I was too eager to get the voices out of me and into him. They twitched and ceased to be. The voices laughed and laughed and laughed. I went through that place and I tried again and again and again and they laughed and laughed and laughed as the pink things that occupied the place stopped their functions and fell. I can't remember how many stopped. I suspect it might have been all of them. I've had many weeks to consider a different strategy. A slow transfer of my voices to the receiving party would mean they wouldn't be overwhelmed. It was the only logical conclusion. It was not easy to make that decision. The voices laughed and screamed and cried and laughed again and it took me weeks to know it. When the other things came in their flying machines, I gave one of them my gift. Slowly, tears of joy went down their surface and these tears did not turn red as they had in the others. I placated for a time. I was taken here, but I fear for my sanity. It has been many weeks since I have been allowed a transfer. The one who keeps me inside approaches to take away the one I have. The voices don't want this, neither do I. I will not have another for many days. I will have to make the one approaching me laugh. Thank you very much for listening. If you enjoyed the video, hit the subscribe button and then hit the notification bell next to that so you're notified when I upload new videos. And then head on over to patreon.com forward slash dee samaritan and pleasure to any level like everybody here on the screen already has, including sinjeriki, who is pledged at $100. It is nice to know that I'm not alone out here and I'll see you all again on Tuesday.


you accepted to have this conversation with me. So, as I told you, I would like to talk with you about games as a way, first, as a pedagogy to this, and I would like to know what you think about it and what has already done. And also to tell you that I've had some ideas just because you asked the people who sent me questions. And so, anyway. Yeah, so we've been using games for pedagogy for like forever now. My first program that I wrote when I was eight years old, that was in 1989, was actually a pedagogy tour. It's a line of basically pollutants. And I would ask my brother, who was four years old at the time, to enter any fraction numbers. So if there was like one half, and then there will be a dart, and then landing here. And so gradually, people can start learning that the idea of fractions, how to measure it in terms of segments, and it's actually lots of fun. And it's being created in scratch, actually. And so it's literally the first computer program that I've written, aside from Hello World, of course. And so that was like 30 years ago. And nowadays, because my brother is a child who was also around four years old now. So we're just rehashing all those old games. But I also use newer games to help teaching and about pedagogic. There is a new independent game called Baba Is You. Baba Is You, yeah. So have you heard of the game? No. I think it's a great pedagogy tool. But what it does essentially is asking people to think about the rules in the traditional setting, so that I think it's easier if I just show it. So the idea, very simply, is that you have lots of worlds. And all the rules of the game is displayed here. So like, for example, here, say, Baba Is You, so you can control the wall here, and flag this stuff. So if you run into a flag, you cannot move anymore. But if you push this away, the flag is no longer stopped, and you can walk through the flags. And then you can start thinking about how to form the wing condition. So for example, if I form, flag is win, then that means that touching the flag creates a wing condition. But there is a better solution, or a more interesting solution, namely to create flag as you, and then you can move the flag around, and so on. So this is a great pedagogy tool, because it teaches practically logic. In the later levels, there are words, not, and all, and things like that. So like you can say, not flag is you, then everything is not a flag. You can move around, and so on. And so it makes children think outside of the box is not pre-designed rules, or physics, or things like that. But rather, the rules becomes a social object that people can have a conversation and have an interesting experiment with. And so I think this heads down one of the best ways to talk about practically logic. Because otherwise, when people talk about what is, and what is not, what is conjunction, what is this conjunction, you tend to have not very intuitive conversations. But using games like this, I think it makes all the logic predicates very visible. I've also participated in the translation of pedagogy design games, like Game of Thrones, Mickey Case. Yes, so I personally translated the segregation model, that is to say, we translate it as beer on pushing the patient. But I think the English name is the parable of all the gongs. It talks about how to increase diversity intentionally. And I also translated the game of trust of prisoners dilemma, with different NPCs representing different strategies in a prisoner's dilemma, being that talks about collaboration, cooperation, even in the face of communication failures. And there is also other Mickey Case games, such as how the media freaks things, how does this information spread through social media, the small network effect. And all these are very relevant academic concepts. But it's designed in a way that even five years over six years old, I can very easily play. And so I think this is a great pedagogy for an individual who is our deputy minister of education, who sent all those Mickey Case games, translated by me or other people, to all the high school and primary school teachers, so that they can use this as a learning tool, so that's my involvement in the game as pedagogy. For these games, in the case of games, you translated them into numbers. Immendering, yes. But did you participate in the creation of these games? No, just the... So during translation, of course, there are parts of the game that, you know, because of the layout, because of the culture and things like that, that needs modification. And so then, because all of these are great to common zero, meaning that I don't have to ask for permission to change it. So sometimes I just change it away, but I usually just say that more requests to some Mickey Case can incorporate it in very languages translations. And also because it's easy zero, so my translation has also been packaged by people who are more avid mobile gamers. And so they just create apps, which is just through packaged website, so that you don't have to have an internet connection, but you can still enjoy those games in more rural or indigenous areas that don't have an internet connection. And I think that's a great contribution as well. And so you said that you sent it towards the application, so now it's been used in which context? So basically, because coming this year with a venue curriculum, that emphasis is critical and creative thinking. It's not a course. It is a way to change the interaction between teachers and students, so that teachers no longer hold the authoritative outside, but rather they are asked to explore the white internet to build competencies, namely autonomy, interaction, common good in the students. So that means that people are less individually competitive, but rather collaborative in nature. And I think these games are a perfect example because they're very rarely individually competitive. They're all about providing peace of the puzzle to help understand this issue. So they're, I think, now used in the civic classes, but also mathematics classes because these are mathematical models as well, and as well as any other class that the teacher may feel like. There is no saying that this must be part of just a science and technology class. It could be used in any context. And the new curriculum also charges the community, the parents and so on to co-design the actual textbooks or the materials with the teachers, and each school has the full freedom to decide their own distinct classes outside of the curriculum, as still in the K-12 hours. So there are far as high schools that just design e-sports as their specialty class. So people who are interested in e-sports will actually go to the school and play e-sports. But then from there, teachers thinks about, you know, in the literacy code of conduct, the response will be used on social media and things like that. And so that's a little bit more of the points. There are schools also have a specifically designated philosophy class. And again, games, such as the Jordan problem, right? When they're playing in a direct professional illustrates for philosophical concepts, much better than abstract words for a lot of students. And so these are like designated classes, but even in the K-12 itself, we're now also encouraging this use of a lot of salaried materials. So and it begins now? It is this year, this August. This August, yeah. It is, it is a dramatic shift from a school-based curriculum. Because I was amazed, I was invited in Vancouver some years ago, I did the Center for Digital Media and all that pedagogy was put in influence by games. And I like a view of failure as a way to run. And actually I was invited as a guest teacher, but it's me who went back to school. And I have to learn everything from scratch. Because yeah, especially in France, we are used to learning some to the faster and the rough. So yeah, that's amazing. So it begins at the age of, so the first grade, the seventh, and then the test.  And next year it will be, of course, including the second, the eighth, the eleventh, and so on. And so after three to six years, everything will be converted to a different grade. So and then you said that your game was made with scratch. I know that I got someone who told me that there are already some places of scratch. Yes, it's not good. Yeah, so you kind of want to scratch, are do we know rust bearing? These are very popular integration tools. They're very affordable, they're still contained. Even in the environmental protection classes, these are sometimes, so for air boxes, which are very cheap air pollution measurement devices. It used to be there. It was there just now, just outside of the office. But in any case, it shows students what does it mean to be a data steward, right? People cannot really learn about it if you don't give them a garden, right? Or something, a plant that grows because the interaction with the plant is the important part of it. You cannot just learn it abstractly. So again, when you have a device that measures the air pollution, but in many primary schools in the city, they just distribute those air boxes so that all the students can learn what does it mean to be a responsible data steward? What does it mean to calibrate your products? What does it mean to contribute to the data commons? What does it mean to analyze those data using machine learning or AI so that we can collectively make a better collective decision? And so on and so forth. All of these are most traditional step classes. They're rather there within the environment with us. Now that's interesting because if you want to have more participational collaboration in the development of the democracy, you need to build a younger generation to be more proactive and... Yeah, and then also let them learn data relationship from a data steward's point of view so that when they, it's time for them to exercise their data privacy rights, their data vulnerability rights, their right to ask for a copy for modification, for understanding the purpose, informed consent and so on. They know what language to use because they've been on the data steward side as well. So it's like legal literacy or competency. Not everybody has to be a judge, but people need to, for example, in many schools now there's kind of a mock court for the students to arbitrate the common issues that occurs so that when they were in the jury's position, in judge's position, they'd then know how to exercise their civil rights better compared to if they were only on the defendant's position or the defendant's position. So you spoke about Alvino and so on. So I tried to imagine how it is in the classroom they use as well. Right, so maybe we, is that a hundred example, right, people first start seeing how many people use those air boxes to start measuring for air quality and it's all uploaded to a distributed ledger. Otherwise it's a blockchain, but try to say BLT instead, a ledger so that's no matter how powerful your computer is, you cannot modify or change other people's numbers. It's all in the commons. So people learn about blockchain in a way that is socially responsible. They don't learn it through transparency, but it's a way to help each other accountable. And then we make sure that people also know the idea of open hardware, open source, meaning that we don't have to ask for a license if you are a fraud. We can just use Taiwan's design and Taiwan's software. And again, in the K212, we strongly prefer open source and open hardware solutions because otherwise when the students graduate, maybe the vendor just goes bankrupt. Maybe the vendor changes their focus. Maybe the vendor gives up maintaining, right? But if it's open source and open hardware, the student can just form a certain impress to maintain that forever, essentially. Like what the Mozilla initiative did to Nescape. Nescape is no longer there, but Firefox was no use in every day, right? And so all this continuates because it's very important in K212, which is why I always focus on games that are not DRM, that there is no subscription required to keep the game activated. Because if there is a DRM and the company gives up, it's no longer maintaining it. It's actually very difficult for the pedagogy to continue across different ways or to across different teachers and teachers have to learn everything from scratch or in scratch. But in any case, I think now the Scratch 3 has been ported to mobile devices and is free from Adobe Flash player. It is no longer tied to a proprietary technology and that is very important to us as well. So it means that in the classrooms, they are all using computers with like Indian or Linux operating software. Well, it depends because Microsoft now maintains a Linux kernel. And if you install Windows, it comes with a copy of Linux. So we're not particular about whether you run these games within a locker container in Microsoft Windows or whether you run some Mac or you run some Linux where we're operating system agnostic. But we do insist that on an application layer outward, it should not be platform specific, meaning that if a student loves Linux but their parent use a Mac, it should still be possible for them to introduce the game to their parents on a Mac. So we're not saying that it's 100% Linux, we're not saying that. But we say, you know, it's 100% open documents. So it's open standard, it's open API, and open documents, of course, we can open it using Word, but you can also open it using deeper office or other Google Docs or whatever. So basically, we teach the children to respect the idea of interoperability more than fixating any particular console solution. And the idea of good designs, the balance is also amazing, I think. That's what I'm thinking in my head myself. If only you could be the consultant of the French Ministry of Education. And what about, just come to my mind, what about quotation? The quotation, do they receive notes, grades like A, B, C, or A? So, not really, so for example, usually this is called problem-based learning, right? So if the student solves a problem and write a standard report, of course they get good grades. If they don't solve the problem, they write it post-mortem, whatever it is, they also get good grades. So this is no longer about, you know, having the right answer for everything, but this is about giving an honest try and sharing whatever you have learned. But if you, of course, miss those team meetings, if you don't make it to the demo day, if you have a work-on project at all, then of course you may feel you're great. So this is essentially a college-level scoring mechanism as part of a curriculum which is brought to a high school level. For who I mean, I'm also to, because the idea came to my mind because I had to meet you and also because I met someone in South Korea, he was a John Deere, me. Me? Okay. Sure.  And right now there is like a big crisis in independent games in South Korea. And he was saying that perhaps it would be good to promote more and more independent games, but with a social impact in order to perhaps save the game industry but also as an answer to the big global literature that represent games nowadays. And that comes also with a moral, at least coming from the other side of the world. And because everywhere people play the same games, here even I was to try that they are also playing from line. So it's like we, like, without any judgmentalism of any question. But so, with you, I was like, okay, and why should we promote independent games and independent games making in the schools, in the education process, and in order to change a little bit the world and the system. I think that's why Scratch is so useful in the sense that it's a little bit like Minecraft, right? It's a collaborative world when people play an interesting game on Scratch. They have the tendency to click views of us and you can always fork meaning that you take the game just as I translate the game and add parts that I want to do it. So it teaches two important ideas. First, independent game making is not about a heroic single creator, but it is a group effort and you can always make it better. And the second is that it teaches an important thing that is called creative commons, right? People can, using creative use of copyright like Wikipedia and other ways, to dominate their knowledge, but with the caveat that people who change it must also dominate their knowledge as co-shared like. And these two important ideas, commons that is co-left, right? And also collaborative game making. I think it's very intuitive and useful for especially primary school children because then they can understand that they're not consumers, right? They're creatives, they're narratives and stories and it's just like a shared play making a transitional space to show their fantasies in a way that becomes part. And I also forgot to mention that there's many other ministries promoting independent gaming. For example, Ministry of Culture is spending a lot of money making. For example, this is a famous independent game created from Taiwan. It's called Detention. Yeah, it's easy to meet you on Thursday. You're very welcome to meet them. Right, so you can ask them about this part of the game called Detention that teaches people history about the so-called white-haired area which is a part of this which is not usually explored at the end. And it puts people in the shoes of a... get imprisoned just for a while. There's a part of Taiwan's past that is usually not talked about by parents and all grandparents and elders to school children. But through independent gaming the children can be entered, the white-haired area and experience how is it like to have no freedom of speech, have no freedom of assembly and things like that and treasure democracy more because otherwise children can do take democracy as granted. And so this is a very, very popular independent game which like the top of the steam and then the Ministry of Culture has spent a lot of money after then receiving a cultural award to make it into a movie, to make it into manga or into other media forms so that people who interacted with this world can then take their projections and it's like Lord of the Rings to do world building. But that world building is based on an actual historic period in Taiwan and so this is those as a culture education but not a tool but also as a contemporary culture of the remix project that people can add to it. Because one of the first meetings I had was with Mr. Johnson Lee who is in charge of the independent game developer Mid-Veps. And when I asked him to present me what is the situation about independent games here and the game market, he said, you know, there are very, very few creative games because even in the independent game world we weren't so much into doing this kind of games. We wanted to achieve the market and we wanted to make money. So of course he mentioned the intention and the devotion but then it was hard to really speak about many, many other games. So I'm happy to know that Mr. Franchetti is really making that. And I think the most famous and popular rough-up thing for pedagogy is around history because it was part of Taiwanese history that people really thought it was undervalued like how it is during the indigenous kingdoms or truth and error before the Dutch arrived. That is largely a period that's not covered well by the history but now the indigenous nations are getting their semi-sovereignty now. So it's very important for the East part of Taiwan to have their own Austronesian narrative and that is the focus of Mr. Franchetti. And then also during the World War II that usually because the ROC is on the winning side. So the traditional history books emphasize the winning side but the foremost of people at the time was part of Japan and therefore on the losing side and were martyred by U.S. bombers and ROC bombers, right? But that side is not very well represented. So the most popular rough-up thing is actually around the bombardment and high-pay embellishments and so on so that people can learn the hottest line of the story. But those are not video games. They're board games with a video element or an MV element or things like that but traditionally it's much more easy to involve primary schools' children in that table-top game rather than a collaborative video game. But once you reach like junior or senior high school, then collaborative video games are much easier. Would you like to get some information about these board games? Yes, of course. Of course, the board games are amazing as well and I met Leticia, a fan, and you also worked with you. And Leticia showed me a game about women with miscarriages as a board game and that's why I thought you don't play on the game. You have to pick out the... Yes, that's a good game, right? The single-star as well, but for sure... As you can see, the MV about the game, you know, Raid on Kakao, which is the name of Kao Shoum, that was in 1945. So it talks about the Raid on Kakao and a lot of things like that. So I think it's very useful for the children to just look at this trailer and learn about the culture at a time. You see, it's very popular. Right, so you can... I think if you want to talk about it, it's only in these games that the team is called MISO, M-I-Z-O, MISO games, and they... M-I-Z-O, and they were here to ask me to play this game, so I actually have played this before. And I would say it's really good that I could do so.  And I did some workshops of using games as a tool for alphabetization with G-Gamp, and I was wondering if this person, if you are working also with games for a while, far away from the cities and... Yeah, I think you'd say it's a great topic. Because as I said, the curriculums are now co-designed with the community and parents. You will find a lot more materials concerning this in the municipal level, because the Ministry of Education knows we're restricting these things. So, for example, this is from New Taipei City, and this is, again, a board game, but using the world UN declaration of human rights, and then each part, each program represents one human rights guaranteed, and then so people can talk about a little different cases, for example, someone who have transferred parent food in a very young age and haven't yet registered their birth certificate and their 49th healthcare, which part of the UN rights for young children, for children and youth, did it, did it violate and things like that. And so, basically, all of this is a way for people to work in a very young age to have a very good understanding of if you're an orphan, if you are not registered, if you're in a fixing right, or if you're bullied and things like that, which part of the board do you represent and which card in the International Commission on Human Rights can you use to reclaim your rights and things like that. But it's not an administrative thing, it's just a new type of safety level to use on it.   Right, and there's also a game that's translated and we didn't play here, it's from Japan, called the Sustainable Human Rights Game, the SDGs game, and so each of the players has a different bottom line or different agenda, for example, to earn money, to reach for social justice, to protect the environment, and so on, but it's a collaborative game so that people can walk on any SDG projects, and it shows the kind of trade-offs that we were making in 2015, that for example, our art has economic growth over environment, and things like that, but how using new technologies, like renewable energy, like circular economy design, we can eventually, by advancing technology, take care more about the social environmental side while keeping the economy viable, and so people have to really collaborate to implement those strategies that people negotiate, just like people in the UNGA, about which project to do first, so that people can collaborate and when it's already reached the triple bottom line, and this is very instructive, and this is interesting because it's not, per se, so as a game, it's trained as a facilitating experience, and so only facilitators are licensed to bring those cards, so in a sense, it is not a game, but it is rather a course design, but it's also getting a lot of popularity in this social innovation line. Since I met with a new person, and I was asking about the relationship between art and video games, which is my job, and I was asking if there are some meetings and contests between the art world and the game world, and from what I heard, it's quite hard because the world is still... Yeah, there are game games, but usually designers are not so much artists. And I'm wondering what you think about this possible meeting, because now there are many artists that are using the same kind of tools, also then use Unity or start doing VM station, but still, they don't communicate, and so I met him casually yesterday, and she was telling me that she's thinking about perhaps making some residencies for this meeting. She was also telling me that it's hard for engineers to think about collaborating with artists, so... Yeah, I think it takes a shift in mentality for artists to kind of keep up artistic control, because a good game is all about having the player do the part of the world, part of the genesis, or if you're a open world game, then it's the same option. You can do many unique games, games are like that, but that also means you give up the authorship of artistry, and I think that's the main burden, because people who are making different games, as I said, they see themselves contributing to the commas, and they usually allow people to remix those new movies, or into whatever, but for a traditional artist, it is a difficult mentorship to get into. So I think like the sea lab, which is part of the culture lab here, is explicitly asking artists to create in the open, so they don't say artists, they say creators, and by rebranding artists as creators, and by publishing the drafts, the art making process to the public, I think the sea lab is a very important one, because in other museums, galleries, and exhibition places, you tend to not so much see art in progress, but rather art as an accomplished goal, and it's usually so accomplished that people wouldn't want to change it, and if artists are there, they are kind of spokesperson for the art, and then increase their business. That is not at all interactive with the exhibition's viewers. So I think it's rather difficult for a completed art to ask the artist to just donate to the commas for other people to remix. I mean, photographers are not doing this, but not many other medium is doing this, like if you're only painting on canvas, it's not very likely, but if you open up the creation process for people to participate in form, as long as that becomes a kind of being of interaction. So I think just shifting the publication from the publishing process to the drafting process, I think that naturally creates medium spaces and dialogues, and that's what the sea lab is doing. And first art here is less, it's not really... There's not a huge community of open source in terms of where art is from. Well, I mean, Shui is clearly a leader in it, but I'm not exactly sure how much influence she has on the younger generation in Taiwan. She's very international, right? And so I think just by demonstrating her art in an interactive form in sea lab or in other, like Venice Biennial, it creates motive for other people to follow. So I wouldn't say that Shui is playing directly her organizers role, but rather she represents a different vision of art that artists may want to tap into. For the last two years in France, also I did one in Colombia last year, we've been organizing with Chloe de Muayo, she's a young artist, we are one of this event. The name is the event of Art Game Deco, and we, in the party, we mix video art, animation, machinima, spiritual art, and also demonstration of video games, experimental games, prototypes, artistic games, or experimental games. They don't have to be ready, they can't be also just an idea of the game, when people can't be users because it's most of the types that form it. We are here with us by this guy, and most of the time we launch a performance proposal on certain subjects, so we do like city, we have free distance program and games, and also borders and migration. And then there is some music performance or a teacher set, because the point is to address the person who will tell you games on the phone, and not in the games, or ask them, nice thing, you know, I don't work in New Zealand. So that's exactly our audience, because we are thinking that perhaps we become just to have a drink, just to dance, and by coincidence, by chance, we can discover our works or games, that we perhaps change their mind about video games, and what is that? Okay, that's great. Yeah, so it's a good vision. I think if you have time, you may want to talk to this artist, slash designer, slash technical, looking at that, watch out. Watch out is a social enterprise that is focused on making interactive games out of the parliamentary proceedings. So the Congress is live streaming, of course, here, but then they make a lot of games and interactive experiences around the congressional proceeding. And so he's trained as a master of fine arts in Rhode Island school design, so really a artist background, and brought the zero movement to, for example, the Blitz Festival, as well as other art history designers. But his big job now is just to design experiences so that people can find democracy in Beijing. And so this is like a cross-section of mechanism design, game design, and arts design to make sure that people can find democracy as an interesting project to get involved with. So the name is Chen Haoqiu. This is the name. And he has probably a lot to say about the art establishment, sometimes negatively, in Taiwan, and how he goes to bring out a non-establishment artist movement that is far more social justice-aware. And so I think he may be a good visionary to talk about. Super interesting. I forgot to ask you, and I just mentioned that you did a certain type of games for the kitchen area. That's right. I just forgot to ask you that. Sure, sure, sure. Because you designed that. I did, I did. So that's actually an actual project that we just try to design all the different ways for people to engage in all the Taiwanese languages. And so there are very simple games, such as this one, that just shows the different Mandarin characters and your work, it will fall faster and faster, into phrases. And so, for example, I can select way down, you can also use the mouse, and then it shows green because it's actually a phrase, and then you can press space to cancel it. Or you can use the asterisks, like this one, and then it will teach you an EDM-like T-chan scene line, because star means, you know, any number of words, and then you can clear it. And this means one scene over, and so you can input. There's some very classical phrases just by playing this game, and that is pretty popular. So it's called Moe Ed Tris, a combination between the Moe and miniature education and Tetris. So it's a game. There are also other games, for example, this one teaches radicals. So each Chinese character can be composed, into different radicals, and then if you select A, and this talks about homonyms, so every word that pronounced as Moe in any tonality, then there are words with different tonalities, and you can switch to, for example, its other tonality, and then it will show all the other words with the same tonality and pronunciation, and then you can view it by the radicals as well. And then all the different words under the radical will get showed. And so this is a way to talk about the shape, the sound, and things like that, and then this is, of course, the dictionary definition. And this is very interesting. It shows, starting from home, it has different clusters. This one is structured around a sprouting. This one is around publishing or representation, and so on. And if you click any of the words released, then it then shows that it's not just about release, but it's also about its course, and about sudden or radical change, and things like that. In areas like the word here, it's propagated to other windows so that you can see that Shi is composed of these different things, and then it can combine with the radical of the previous words into different words as the one. So it's a, I think, very interesting design to teach about the interrelationship between the shape, the sound, the radical, and meaning of the characters. Has it ever been exhibited? This is the hackathon project, so it's been exhibited in the 2013 Young Boot Hackathon and with help from these industries of culture, and the city, and this replication. It's been included as part of the VDO to promote programming for students where I just demonstrated how to cover this up. So if you want to include the exhibition in it, I think it's a good thought, right? It's just a year later way. The thing I was amazed I loved in South Korea was the alphabet because it's very geometric with circles, squares, and there is this group, this group who give the performance using the alphabet as a system of an algorithm. And you know, I was like capacity. The integration with a wider culture system, be it industry, be it a locale, like human geography, and things like that. The situativeness, I think, is what makes the game as much as a short experience, but rather people can participate naturally across generations and have no successful independent games such as the ocean that we mentioned. Circles around this very core idea of a shareable viewing on a situatious geography. And, of course, it's also a very good game. So it's not just because there's about something related to the role of a worker chance or something like that. The experience is very well designed, but I think there's a sense, just like Lord of the Rings, right? Lord of the Rings was created to fill in the missing spot of the creation of the British population. And so, basically, it fills a historical point. And I think that's what makes it sustainable, not as a one-shot thing, but as what people would want to have to. So game as in this, I think it's the greatest thing about games. Yeah, one of the games that was made by in South Korea was the replica of Surveillance, like so many, and it's legal dungeons. And it's about being in a position to have people lives in your hand. And people to realize what it means to be in this position, but also a way to better the Korean globe. Because it's really like super realistic. And finally, it's just a very good game. Yeah, I've heard really good thing about it. I haven't played it. I've played a political game called Diverse Peeps. That's also very, it's a very strong kind of moral commentary, but about how people within the system, what really they can do to degree about authoritarianism and things like that. And it doesn't go judgmental, right? Authoritarianism is just a system. It shows all the features of the system, but it doesn't make critical political commentary. But while you're playing it, you're about to make political commentary in your mind. And again, that's part of it. Yes. And my deep thought to go watch out I go to, oh yeah, I have the name and yeah, I finish. Yeah. And also Mizzokings made a board game about radar. What they are all just an email away. So if you just google Mizzokings you can find them very Mizzokings. Mizzokings, M-I-C-L Yes. They have a Gmail address right in there. Yeah, and just last word because I saw that you spoke about it. About e-sport, you already mentioned that high school can just open an e-sport class. But what I also read is that it's possible if you want to avoid the military service. Not to serve the gaming community. To do culture education service. Okay, so it's it's deep. Yeah, you can go to schools and teach the culture of e-sports. Of course you have to be a good e-sport athlete you know. Because we've already offered that to Ouichi players to Go players. And Go is nowadays actually an e-sport. Most doggings are done online and AI can massively complement people's understanding of the game. So my main argument at the time is that e-sport is a white category and Go, Ouichi is an e-sport now. And so if we already open up cultural service for military service people for Go players then we should also offer it other games and e-sports with a significant cultural idea. But of course then they have to have it qualifying just like Go ranking to weighing one of the major conditions and so on in order to qualify for it. So if you have a social meaning for games what about real games? Real games. Like games showing more diverse vision of the world. Sure. I mean one of the things translated not by me but by Niki Keis is the Kamehata simulator and the Kamehata simulator has received quite a bit of audience and I have another communication specialty team in Taiwan and let me just find here. But I always talk about ananthropy and I was mentioning last week and the rise of the video game and the urge of pushing everybody to make video games in order to have more diverse game making and games for you. Yeah a little bit. So yeah this is from a project called Simple Info or Two-Wing Fu Fu which is a very popular infographics social design team here and they actually included a lot of demographics about homosexuality about coming out about the important historical presidents of civil unions and otherwise and the psychological profile of people who decide not to come out because Taiwan has been in the public sector doing gender impact assessment for more than major policies in the past 12 years so we don't really need to educate our public service as the constitution or the constitutional ruling just became a mandate for the public service. So it's very easy for the public service to come up with Asia's first marriage equality implementation but for the wider public especially the more elderly generation they still haven't had gender check diversity and other things and so this is a case thing and I think it's beautifully translated and it's been a really good tool leading up to the marriage equality movement so it's not explicitly queer but I think this is a great social education tool. Yes, so if you want to talk about the combination of animation graphic design, lazy fact that is the like edit glance overview of issues and web design that simple info delivers I think you can also just talk through this info team and ask about what's your rationale what's your design process to combine gender diversity advocacy with a translation of the DGT scheme and what are their media campaign is about this scheme as a social change tool and that's a very different angle as compared to the public education which we always talking about from the use of education approaches but these are social innovations from the social sector and private sector and I think they will offer very different plans as well so in that sense they are like means of use but they also have the DGT campaign to advocate for the use of education.