Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening and welcome to another edition of the developer experience office hours here on OpenShift TV. I am Chris Short, executive producer of OpenShift TV. I am joined by two of my favorite Red Haters, Serena from the Future and Ryan Jarvenin. Serena Nichols is her real name. Today Serena, we're talking about what exactly? Today we're going to give you an overview of our 2020 developer survey that we took around the OpenShift experience. Wonderful. Looking forward to sharing that with you guys. Yeah, this should be fun and enlightening at the very least. So do we want to kick it off right away? Yeah, I mean, if anybody has any like office hours type questions for us, feel free to ask. But yeah, until someone asks something, let's go ahead and fire away here. I'm going to head on over to the chat on Twitch. We also have a chat running through YouTube live via restream. So feel free to join us on either of those outlets. You can find all the links on OpenShift.TV. And yeah, I'll be keeping an eye on chat. So definitely let us know if you have new topics that you would like to see on this show. This is intended to be an office hour segment. So definitely get active, ask your questions. We'll do our best to respond to any that you have. And yeah, we love talking about Kubernetes and developments and how you can make the most of your development time while taking advantage of Kubernetes. Hopefully this developer survey has really kind of collected a lot of our feedback from you in the past in 2020. And we're anxious to hear what you've got on your mind going forward in 2021. Awesome. Carlos Santana, one of our regulars and fellow IBMer, not fellow, we're Red Headers. He's an IBMer, but you know, one team one fight kind of deal has a tecton trigger deployment question for you, Ryan. I wonder if you can grab that. I will take a look. Yeah. The question is how can I hide a tecton trigger deployment from the UI topology. It's very annoying to have the automatic deployment there is noise. Talking about like get ops add on type stuff. Yeah, yeah. I know we have some support for hiding things from the menus. I don't know if we have a filter that will easily allow you to hide things from the topology view at this point yet. That sounds like a good feature request though to be able to filter things from the topology as well as from the other lists. I think most of our filtering so far has been around kind of categories of things like D. It's probably not the exact example but like hiding. I don't know like if you didn't want to show certain operators or certain other things in the left hand column you can I think get some of those filtered out. Take a look at the console customization episodes of our developer experience office hours for more information about what console customizations are available today and what what you're capable of hiding and showing currently. Yeah, let me see if I can find that one. I'm loving this have no fear YouTube is here. It reminds me of an old cartoon from back in the day. Yep. Yeah. All right you want to dive in. I will happy to yeah definitely. Okay, so, as I mentioned, we're going to share some of the survey analysis of the 2020 survey. This is just showing that we did have shoe one was our data scientists associated with this and Steve spiker who's usually kind of co presenting on something like this is isn't available today so I'm just going to be talking about it today. You know the background is around to learn more about how developers are interacting with open shift and help drive product direction of course, this is the third year that we've run the survey. And the survey ran from October 4 to November 22. So about six weeks at the end of the year, and we had 38 questions. So I'm going to try to give a quick quick overview of where we landed and I can also play and I'll let me know if I need to pause for questions along the way. Most of the questions are on a reading of scale of one to four where one is lowest and considered very unsatisfied and high is is the number four and very satisfied. You'll also see three different bars for most of the top of most of the answers where green is representing 2018. And just 2019 and that hot pink color is representing 2020. And then you can also see on the bottom on the x axis there is a scale and that's kind of how we're indicating percentage across the board. Nice. The other thing is that we do, you know, around a metric of understanding the deviation or the possibility of what is it called. The answers might not be specifically correct. There's a chance that there's like an 8% right dip positive minus on each of these things based on the sample size that we have in some of the metrics that we had so just remember that as well. And so if we start looking into some of the questions we asked the first one was around what type of application are you running on open shift. This is pretty interesting where the micro microservices stateless apps, stateful apps and traditional apps are definitely the most popular but if you kind of look at where the numbers are trending from 2018 19 and 20, you can see a decrease in there. About three quarters of the way down or two thirds of the way down the page you can see that we did add event driven applications and so that was a new item that came in but it did come in at six so it's an interesting thing where we'll likely start to see that trend where that's going to take an upswing across the board. And then there were some other options on the bottom that continued to gain a little bit from previous years but nothing significant. What we also did was we kind of pulled in some of the slides around the CNCF survey to try to back up some of the data that we heard or got from our, our own survey. So this is around do you run stateful apps and containers and, according to the season CF survey 55% are yes running in production. Pretty interesting it also talks about 12% are evaluating and 11% plan to use them in the next 12 months. So, again, some similarities of the trend that we saw through our survey. And that is again from the CNCF how is your organization using serverless technology. And so just under a third of the respondents are using serverless technologies in production and another 20% 21% are evaluating and 14 plan to use in the next 12 months. Interesting information. As you know, you all know in the console which is where I'm spending a lot of my time we have a pretty invest a pretty large investment around the serverless experience on eventing and serving. And so I think this maps well into what we're seeing and reading here, right. So the question around how do you describe your serverless fuzz application. So data processing is the most popular type of those types of apps, and then you know the second third and fourth are all around the same percentage so around 50% of the people who answer this question said that they are describing apps and back end or REST APIs. So around the question of what did most people what what version are was the most recent that they had experience with you can see a good decline, a decent decline in the three dot 11 or earlier which is great right if you kind of focus on that 311 or earlier 80% of the people respondents in 2019 said 311. Now we've got about 3637% in 2020 so we're seeing that decline which is what we're expecting. The thing that is interesting about the survey is that we are getting respondents that have of people that are using three dot x as well as for so we're not quite. So some of the the answers that are we we're getting are obviously are also mixed based on three versus four so it's a little bit hard to kind of evaluate if some of those answers are more focused on one version or the other so we're hoping in 2021 when we do the survey again. That most of our customers will be off of the three dot x platform and or we were are also going to change the way that we're asking questions so that we get direction on the four dot x experience, even if three dot x is something that there's also continuing to use. I like how many people were up on the four dot five on the kind of later versions there was like a little gap between four dot five and four dot one. You know you've got the people who have just started looking at four and never ran their upgrades, and then people who did probably continue running upgrades and ended up on four five or maybe even four six, eventually so cool to see that people didn't just switch to four, and then stay put, you know the hopefully the auto upgrade, or the support for in place cluster upgrades is working well for folks so it's cool to see some of that shift in the data. Usually we have kind of a slow uptake on some of these releases so nice to see it moving along. Yeah, that's a great observation. Yeah, I agree with that. For sure. Okay, so kind of a summary on that section the top up five apps decreased overall, but they were still the top five and as we noted there was some growth in this in the next six through nine and eventing or I'm sorry serverless was one of those that was kind of looking possibly a major role in the future. The newest version tried in 2019 80% of the people said three dot X and like you just mentioned that had decreased in to 40% in 2020, but we're also seeing a high uptake in what we have for four dot X. And I apologize for trying to handle my dog here at the same time. We all have these problems now. Dogs, kids, whatever it is. Yeah, it doesn't matter right like Max just ran in here a couple minutes ago to give me something I was like, thanks kid. I wasn't doing anything. Okay, so as far as the actions like I mentioned we're thinking about how we can focus the survey or a word the survey a little bit more so that we make sure that as you're going to see in the in the next couple of sections we talk about ease of use and satisfaction we want to make sure that those ratings are based on four dot X in the future so that we So that's not mixed. So we have a better understanding of the baseline. So the next sections around developing and testing code on open shifts. So the first question this first question here is around is open shift easy to use rate your agreement with the statement. So here this is one of the outliers and we had a scale of one to five or strongly agrees somewhat agree. Kind of neutral, and then somewhat disagree and strongly disagree, but at an overall overall level respondents find you open using open shift relatively easy to use it's kind of a higher up on that top side. We're seeing a slight increase between 19 and 20 nothing substantial. You know, a couple of percentage points but nothing substantial there, but still it's good to see that we're on the higher end of that scale. And now this is an interesting one where we're showing rate your agreement on open shift is easy to use based on the release you are on and I probably cannot increase this percentage so I apologize for this. But what you do see here is in four or five we see a pretty good uptake on what people are doing for somewhat agree and agree and strongly agree on four dot five, where we have I think it's between the top two we've got about 25% are saying they either saw strongly or somewhat somewhat agree. But then we're seeing a little bit a big fall in when you look at four dot six. So we got to investigate that a little bit it could be that four dot six had just come out. Maybe people weren't used to it yet. Not sure what features they were trying to use. But that's something that we'll definitely have to take a look at. So some feedback on that last slide that the font is a little bit on the small side. Yeah, on this one. Do you know if we're planning on dropping a link to the deck at some point or or not today. I don't think that we're going to drop it today. I think we need to improve some of like the readability of the font. Yeah, makes sense. Yes. After after we get a chance to do some cleanup, we will share the results a little bit more more widely. Thanks for asking in chat. Definitely. Yeah. Thanks for that. Okay, so this one. So now we're going back to open shifted easy to use, which is interesting. So we've got the 311 or earlier is on the bottom on the bottom half of the page and four one to four six is on the top half of the page. And I think this is great. If you're looking at ease of use from four one to four six, we are seeing higher percentage right so 50% of the people are saying they somewhat agree, and about 17% are saying that they strongly agree so in, as opposed to in 311, the percentage was much lower I think for those talk to ratings. So that's, that's good news when you're talking about relative ease of use from one product from one release to the next. When we're talking about capabilities meeting our requirements, almost all the respondents found that open shifts capabilities do meet their requirements you can see again a little bit of an update up up tick in somewhat agreed from 2015 to 2020, but everything else is relatively similar across the board. The next section of the survey is really focused on satisfaction with developing and testing on open shift. So rather than showing each of the individual charts, I'm going to give some more summary type information so the questions that we talked about included the satisfaction around the ease of getting started interactive local development, open shift environment used to develop and test against the image build process and source to image, and the time it takes to build and run an application. So again would be interesting for people to continue to comment if you have. If you agree or or really even disagree on any of these it would be interesting to know right. So our observations was that the satisfaction of interactive local develop development made a big jump in 2020, and that had previously been one of our lowest rated items. The getting started piece kind of does remain flat so we're trying to figure out how much of that is attributed to be three versus four mixed experience. And there was also some interestingly high feedback with four one to four three, and then good with four five and then again a little bit negative with four six but there was a small sample size so we need to do some investigation there. And then the nice thing to see here was that with the steady improvements, we saw across the board from image build process in S2 I were in 2009. I'm sorry 2018 it was 19% to then to 23% then to 31% for that very satisfied reading. And as far as actions go, we were talking about the fact that it's going to be interesting to see a satisfaction regarding getting started will increase because we've got all these, you know, great improvements and other features that are available, starting recently with the developer sandbox, the, you know, making the footprint size smaller for CRC in the console specifically around getting started we've introduced all these new quick starts, some in four six but more and four seven and guided tours as well. So we're hoping that those things will help to improve some of these ratings in 2021. Cool. So we have enough choices around utilizing services on open shift so this kind of focus on satisfaction around being able to find a service, whether it's cloud based or local, having enough choices of service, being able to set them up, maintain them, as well as use them inside of your And again you can see some, you know, not super significant again like there's two or 3% I guess increase or decrease decrease on very satisfied, I'm sorry increase on the very satisfied rating. Decrease on the satisfied rating because I'm assuming that those people kind of voted up, which is good, good to see that's finding services, whether it's cloud based or local. But for the most part customer satisfaction is pretty flat over the last two years in this area. We're very minor improvements around having enough choice of services, maintaining services or user services in the applications. And so again I just mentioned some of the things here that we're working on in 4.8 in the console, where we have an enhanced catalog experience as well as new topology feature to help find services so we think that that will really bump that finding service piece. When you have the red hat integration camel K operator installed developers will also now see in the event source catalog camel K connectors, starting with a few you know starting I think with five, but you'll see that number increase so again the number of options that developers will have available to them will continue to increase. And then there's this, there's a bunch of work going on with manage Kafka services, which will set the stage for a consistent experience in the console around managed services across the board so I think that's super important as well. That's interesting to me that managed services didn't see a big increase with all the operator hub options that are potentially available. Not all of them are pre installed on your cluster but I was kind of expecting to see a big jump in availability of related services that are just easily pluggable and and instantly kind of available, given you have the admin capabilities to add the operator right. Yeah, I agree and this could still and this is the tough part with this one where we still had a number of people back on three dot x the question is exactly. So again, we'll definitely be addressing that that part of the survey next next time around so that we can have a better understanding. I'm also curious like there are lots of operators available like I wonder how cluster admins are picking and choosing which ones to take right like yeah. I'm not sure if we do much research around that or have much knowledge like, I think we, we blog on quite a few of them and what some of them will bring bring to the table but I'm not sure where, where people are getting. How they're making their choices. Yeah, JP data have updates specifically for you from our product management team on quays requirement for Docker 34 is getting released this week, and there will be improvements in the documentation to handle pod man versus Docker better. So, just wait till the end of the week and you'll have an answer hopefully. Okay. So application development features on open shift the section of the survey focused on application development but specifically around application health performance visibility feedback on progress and errors during development application debugging project and environment integration with CI CD, as well as availability of modern frameworks and runtime. So again just kind of skipping this charts and just moving down to our observations and active in our actions. Overall customer satisfaction is pretty flat again. In 2020 application debugging and feedback on progress and errors are the lowest rated items around satisfaction that we have. As far as actions go, you know, there are ongoing efforts to improve application health and performance visibility. We've got a lot, a lot of work. We have a monitoring slash observability team that's doing a lot of work on the back end and the console team is is working with them to see how we can bring pieces in. We've also been working with other members around, you know, Java performance is their way for us to bring in Java performance dashboards into the console, etc. As far as like the the one around availability of modern frameworks and runtimes, what we are doing in four dot eight is we're, you know, there's more and more corkis. The corkis experience is showing up more and we've added some quick start so that to provide some awareness for users that that stuff is available and can work on the open shift platform and how I'm kind of walk you through how to do that. And the other thing I did want to note too is since integration with CI CD tools was part of that, you know, four dot five through four dot eight is providing a seamless integration with tecton pipelines inside the console. We also have like a, there's an ID that's available. I'm sorry, a plugin that's available for for ID ease around tecton as well. So I think, again, we're providing additional pieces of the story that should continue to help those satisfaction rates ratings go up, I think. I particularly appreciate that last section on developer productivity. I like the focus on feedback during my development loop and that's something that's not always available depending on how you have set up your development environment. A lot of folks will do a very minimal setup where most of their work is being done, it may be locally in an IDE. They may not be leveraging their cluster to get that kind of production quality feedback as part of their local dev loop, they might only be getting that feedback after they deploy or push something into a tecton pipeline or others, right. So you get that feedback on an interval, but not necessarily as you're doing the iterative development work. So we've added a lot of capabilities to get more feedback out of your cluster production quality feedback, while you're actually doing that iterative work to hopefully give you just a better reflection of what production is like. And to help you save time and energy as you're working, leveraging that improved feedback. So I know we're doing a lot of work to help connect the dots for folks on those pieces, but a lot of new things in 2020 and more on the road coming up soon. Yeah, for sure. This piece is interesting as well so this is around resources for OpenShift and we're not talking about Kubernetes resources but more like resources for a user to go get more information right. It focused on satisfaction of resources for OpenShift around product help and documentation, blogs, whether they go, you know, blogs covering developers.redhat.com as well as the OpenShift blog. And I'm noting that here because we don't have a satisfaction rating based on each of the different areas it's on blogs overall, as well as how to guides and tutorials. So our numbers aren't terrific here by any means. There's a lot of improvement, I think room for improvement. And you can see like there's slight changes, but it's not, it's nothing really substantial across the board for product help blogs you can see we have time from the very satisfied rating we've gone up from 2018. What is that maybe. You can say it went from about 18% to 30%. So that's pretty decent. But again, we really want to be I think a little bit higher than that, if we can be. And then around how to guides and tutorials. This seems even a little bit lower. So that being said, I think we do have kind of some good news in the pipelines as well though where we're going so again the observations are that product help docs, how to guides, how to guides and tutorials are some of the lowest rated areas across the board. We did see some slippage in satisfaction in product help and docs and blogs from 2019 to 2020. And we clearly need to focus in these areas but we are anticipated anticipating specifically in the console that quick starts are going to address some of these areas around the tutorial piece. And it's really interesting so we are utilizing quick starts are trying to utilize quick starts from the PM and the UX side but we're also talking the developer advocate team on like how they might be able to take advantage of them. We've also had a number of meetings with some customers who are really interested in bringing quick starts into their own environment and utilizing those to help to teach best practices on how to create or, you know, create upgrade maintain applications in their own environment for their own developers. So that's pretty interesting to see, I think. And I guess that last bullet is we do have a plan on focusing focused on how we're improving blog content delivery as well as contribution. I'd really be interested if people have the opportunity to kind of set say something in the chat like what are the most useful types of blogs that you guys see. Do you like the what's new blogs do you like more something around it's walking you through something and you can learn about something really specific. And or are you are you typically looking at open shift blog versus the red hat. You know the rhd blog site. So, there's a bunch of questions there but if you want to provide any feedback you know any of that would be much appreciated. Any questions yeah we definitely yeah if you have ideas or feedback from, you know, what you want to see on the blog let us know for sure. Yeah, what's new is a blurb marketing, not good should point to a video tutorial like the ones from Daniel. I mean we do have, and we are trying there is a what's new page now. If you go to open shift comm slash what's new, you'll get the latest briefing and deck from the last you know show that we did on the topic. Interesting JP date says I like who I look for who they're from. That's an interesting one. Yeah, anyone have a favorite post. I mean, there's so many now. Andy has his hands full our blog curator as it were. Yeah, I haven't been as active on the blog personally, but I do see posts occasionally from our product management team that I think are very informative and have a lot of really great details on roadmap and and new releases and other things like that so. Yeah, definitely let us know in the chat if you have a favorite blog post or another blog that you think has vastly superior content that I should be trying to take notes on whatever they're doing and work some of that content into our blog. Definitely let us know we value your feedback. Yeah, and you know good feedback is the challenges you're hitting right like GP date was talking about his challenges with installing quake quake key however you want to say it on real late. Right, like we need feedback like that to get you all great blog post to help you enable yourselves to go hard and fast right like that's the idea move move quickly and safely. I'm also just going to pull these in here I'm just bringing out a couple of tabs so I think probably everybody knows about the open shift calm blog I'm sure. One of the things that we have been doing is a concerted effort when we're doing something for the developer is that we are posting our blogs on developers dot read at calm. I'm not sure if you guys are all signed up for that program or not. Definitely look into it if you are are interested but if you go into the products tab on the top right. What did I just do and then scroll down to the bottom there's a red hat open shift here, and this is kind of where you can see downloads getting started and overview. But this is where you can see a lot of the content that we do. I think it's underneath getting started as well. There's a bunch of the resources that we have around the developer perspective and developer console here as well as other areas around developing on open shift so definitely take a look at that as well. Have Twitter notifications for open shift account. That's that's a really good tip. Yeah. Yeah. So is there are people looking at just like all the blogs. This is a good question that Ryan brings up. You know are you looking at just the open shift blog are you looking at the developers blog because the content does kind of cross pollinate seldomly I feel like right like we keep one in one place one of the other kind of deal. Our survey did not differentiate just so you know. Okay. And it's actually I mean it's also pretty. Yeah exactly. And it's also pretty interesting too right like so we you think about like what we're doing with their developer experience office hour we oftentimes are talking about how to customize the experience for developers, which might be tailored to admins right that the admins have to do the customization whether they expose operators or shut off helm or add more helm repositories or whatever. But it's they're still an overlap so it is it is kind of interesting to see where people kind of innately go for for those blogs. But I'm going to continue on a little bit. So this is around satisfaction with open shift build features. So this was reported just a little bit differently if you remember though one was on a scale of one to four one is very unsatisfied for is very satisfied. So we're seeing numbers kind of right around satisfied I guess. So pushing builds build artifacts my repo is three one along with security concerns with builds and ability to apply runtime config and availability availability of builder images. And then the straight three dot oh around injecting dependencies and ability the ability to extend and modify build steps, and then a little bit lower around build speed and the resulting image size. So some, you know, observations and summary around that is the overall sack satisfaction. Again, it's pretty much everything is relatively flat this in this instance slightly up. Unless we just noted dependency injection and image size and speed build speed or rank the lowest. So part of those actions are to prioritize some of those features in the upcoming roadmap and investigate dependency injection issues. So, and also hoping again this goes back to guidance and documentation best practices on how to achieve those kind of build improvements. What are the biggest challenges you face developing applications with open shift. Some of these works are going to start with the CNCF survey where what their challenges were in using and deploying containers. So their top challenges were complexity joined cultural changes with the development team. So that is kind of interesting. And then if you take a look at some of the our things on our survey, the observations were top issues were time and culture, local environment and CNC new and getting started or documentation performance and resources and stability. So it is interesting and that that new user getting started documentation and performances performance or being able to kind of observe or, you know, monitor things are seen to be some of our largest challenges there. So, again, around actions, increased priority of features and documentation to reduce friction for adoption, and of course, continue to try to reduce that CRC footprint which is already in the plan and we've definitely made some improvements to date but we're continuing to work towards that. I like, I noticed that last slide had was was more general. Yeah, CNCF survey, and I think this noting that complexity and cultural changes with development where some of the top kind of hold ups to to getting top challenges is kind of relates to some of the issues we saw earlier with getting started being like a big challenge. We had some kind of lower scores around the getting started experience and I think part of that is just for folks who are moving to Kubernetes or two containers from a before Kubernetes type of era. There is a lot of it's a there's a lot of knowledge, a lot of learning, a lot of skills you have to adopt, and all of that takes time all of that takes energy. Hopefully open shift is doing a good job of hoping of helping reduce the complexity and the amount of learning that you have to do. It's definitely a challenging situation because we want to give you full access to all the underlying Kubernetes resources, while still hiding enough of it to make it easy for new users. So, hopefully we're doing a decent job of kind of splitting that balance there. I mean, it's always hard when you're dealing with abstractions, right? Like, yeah, how much do you abstract away? How much do you expose that's always like a razor edge balance, I feel like. Yeah. I'm just noticing something here that somebody had mentioned it would be nice to get if there was a open shift only newsletter I'd subscribe to get it. If it was once a week, but I'm not going to visit the sites every week to check what's new. So I don't know if anybody who's who are like Chris or Ryan, I don't, I do not know this, but the red hat developers newsletter. Do we know how frequently that goes out. Is that a month? I guess once a week. I forget. It might be every other week. I forget to be honest with you. Yeah, something to check out. I mean, I can take that action so come next week we can talk about that a little bit too. Yeah, I'm probably going to reach out to Alex Handy to just be like, it might be a good idea to start a newsletter with just blog posts and interesting things, you know, like links and summaries done, right? Right. Yeah, five to 10 links a week. I feel like that would be a good thing. Definitely. Definitely. Okay, so let's go. Getting started in languages in framework. So how do you get started creating new applications for open shift. So I will read some of these to you because I know that the font is very small. So the first section is around the web console. The next thing that we're seeing a decline on that I know these are images to so I can't do anything unfortunately. The next one is around OC or cube cuddle creates. The next one is around internally develop internally developed tooling, and then helm charts is the fourth open shift templates is the one that's only highlighted in pink. Audio create. So that's kind of where we are with the top ones. So the kind of overview is that many respondents start creating new applications on open shift by using the console or or the OC or cube cuddle create commands. Interestingly enough, when I do have conversations with people with customers, what we are hearing is on board, you know, brand people who are brand new to open shift are typically coming in and doing like the import from get that type of thing with the console, and are very familiar and comfortable with that, because they're the ones that are not super comfortable with Kubernetes and want that more abstracted view. Again, interesting to see what we're what we're showing here. It looks like helm finally moved ahead of internal internally developed tooling got surpassed by helm. Right, right, right. That's cool. That's cool to see folks move to standard kit that is maintained by a community rather than all in house. There's definitely some value to doing it all in house when you need to, but it's nice to see helm charts kind of moving up as a widely adopted way of packaging and distributing your solutions so that's that's pretty cool. Yeah, the interesting thing like I'm just trying to look at the percentage so in 2019 home charts was it about 18%. And now is it about 37%. So that's a pretty big hike. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, the next one again is around which languages and tools are used by your applications on open shift so I'll take a read down like the top eight or so so Java was number one open JDK to JavaScript. Python, jboss EAP, go Tomcat, jboss web server, and then dot net core. And then we also see corkis. Again, corkis is new so you see corkis kind of where they they were at about 12% last year and then this year at about 24%. So it will be interesting to see if that continues to grow or it will be interesting to watch that grow. And it's also well interesting that the top languages used by apps and open shift or Java with JDK JavaScript and Python but you're also seeing a decline from 2018 to 20 with a few of these. So people disagree and think go is go is the king here. You know, I used to see charts like this where they would have JavaScript and NodeJS as two separate categories. It looks like we do. What's that? I mean, is that really like a thing? I mean, are they really different that much? They're both JavaScript ones just running on the server. So it could be like static web versus actually run via a NodeJS server that you want to distinguish between which is somewhat valid. But yeah, it's interesting to me that there's a Java and then an open JDK and then also wild fly and like a couple potential ways to roll up Java into a larger category. But since this is Red Hat, Red Hat Survey, we do have a lot of Java adoption. So it was kind of expecting to see Java up at the top of the list for sure. Totally. Wasm for next year's survey as Carlos Santana. I mean, that's probably going to be in the mix at some point, right? Yeah. I heard last week some folks from the Rust community saying that Rust is potentially the future of JavaScript because you could write Rust that'll compile to binary in your browser. And they're like, we're just going to skip over everything and go compile right to binary and ship it to the browser. I don't know. That could very well be the case, right? Like Rust has a very bright future when it comes to WebAssembly. Yeah. All right. So this next slide is around, like we pulled in a part of the GitHub survey as well, right? Just to show top languages over the years as well. So if you can't read the image on the left, 2014, it starts on the left-hand side and moves over to 2020 on the right-hand side. So you can see JavaScript remaining consistent. You see Python kind of with an upswing from 2014. Java maybe a little bit of a downswing. Yeah. Like I think it's interesting that Python has kind of grown over the years, right? Like remember like 10 years ago, people were like, oh, that's like a teaching language. And now it's like, nope, it's everything language. There's really good AI and really good libraries for machine learning, image processing. I know there's great libraries for a lot of different languages. A lot of stuff, yeah. Python has a great collection of libraries that are available. Yeah. TypeScript is making major moves there in that last one. Yeah, here it is definitely. Isn't TypeScript just like safe JavaScript, right? Yeah, yeah. Usually it's kind of a new fangled JavaScript to some extent, yeah. And then here is another survey, Stack Overflow, kind of the same, you know, trying to tease out the same types of information, but where they see Python moving down for eighth year in a row, JavaScript is maintained at strongholds, you know, so kind of some interesting things. And we're seeing some similarities between these, so it's interesting. It's amazing to see Ruby just drop so far so fast. Yeah. HTML. Okay, then. So which frameworks are you used by your applications in OpenShift? So the first. So again, I'll read down the left axis is spring and spring boot is the first one. Then the next one is Node.js. Then the next one is Kafka, then followed by Angular, React, Hibernate, Camel, and Django. So Kafka was added in 2020 and is already in a top three, which is pretty interesting. So about, let's see, just about 44% of the respondents said that they're using Kafka. So according, again, based on our survey, the most popular frameworks are Spring, Spring Boot, Node.js, Kafka, and Angular. Interesting to see Angular on that list. Yeah. That's more front end, right? Or am I just off the base on that one? Angular and React, right? React is definitely a front end framework, I feel like. Yeah. So it's interesting. Let's see, the next one is how do you migrate existing applications to OpenShift? So lift and shift, copy existing apps, resources, and modify them using OCMU app with existing Git repo. Fourth is refactor and rehost. Fifth was third party consulting. Then strangler pattern, replacing monoliths, capabilities with independent microservices. Then internally developed tooling. Then Red Hat migration tooling for applications and others. So it is interesting. I'm just going to note that really quickly. Red Hat migration toolkit for applications was newly added in 2020 and about 17% of the people have noted that, which is interesting. So it will be cool to see if that continues to grow as well. Go ahead. I feel like we've done several migration toolkit shows, and I believe there's one upcoming too. Great. So let me grab some links for you all. Yeah, that would be great. Please keep going. Yeah. Okay, dope. Yeah, so clearly lift and shift and copy existing application resources and modifier are the top two. But we have seen an increase with lift and shift between 20, between the last two years in 2020. So that's interesting to see. I'm curious to see, I'm curious to see if we have an operator hosted pattern showing up here in future results. I know that's something we talk about being a way of hosting stateful applications because you could. If you had a step where you needed to bootstrap a database and pre populate it with a set of data or do backups or do other more complicated app performance things in the background. Operators are a big way of achieving that goal, but I don't see them listed here yet. I don't know how widely adopted that is as packaging up your app in an operator. But I would hope to see more adoption of that, especially with our support for operator backed helm charts and other solutions like that. That's really interesting. So Ryan, we should definitely chat because making sure we don't have that as an option today on this. So we can chat to see if we can get that out over 2021 for sure. I wouldn't expect to see a huge amount of it currently based on the current documentation around operators most of it's around how to package up your your database solution, more than your application but definitely an option for folks in the audience. So packaging an app in an operator is twice the complexity a client would not go with that route by experience. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, it's I mean it's basically asking someone to package their application by writing another application in in go. Right. And not everyone is is up for that challenge of like oh go write a second app in go to package your first it's it's a yeah it's not super easy, but with support for helm charts, operator backed helm charts. So that might be a little bit easier option, but there's definitely some trade offs and more work for us to document how you might adopt one of those approaches. Yeah, and there's, there's a lot of ways to write operators now. Python bash ansible. The list just goes on and on I saw another project I'm pretty sure a Java based operator thing was out there I think I saw last year. Yeah. I'm going through some of the observations audio I'm not sure how many people are on the call are using that but we, we, it made a jump from a percentage perspective from five to 13%. So that's great news but the overall usage is still low I think we we need to continue to kind of make people aware of that and the power, explain the power and why somebody would want to use that CLI. And as helm charts, helm chart usage for apps continues to increase which is great. We're and as everybody knows we are increasing the amount of support inside of the console as well as some other areas. Over 50% of the respondents are using the console to start application creation. We're going to play the next couple of items. Some other on the action side. We are starting to gather metrics for audio usage, as well as some of our other areas in the portfolio. Helm certification process is going to be started and will be supported in the console sometime within 2021, which is, I think good news. We need to improve enhance the console and support multiple methods of creation dev files or something that's really exciting that people are talking about which I, you know that's going to help satisfy our kind of roar launcher use cases. And those are going to be, you know, I think those dev files are pretty strong and flexible. And I think that's going to be a really good option in the future, as you'll also see our portfolio kind of standardizing around the usage of dev files 2.0 as well. So looking at the clock, I'll just do this one section. So where do you develop and test your application for OpenShift. So the first one is around local desktop instead of OpenShift. Other internally hosted local on desktop with application runtime externally hosted or local desktop instance of other container platforms. So a large number of respondents use a local instance of OpenShift or internally hosted versions for developing and testing their apps, which is interesting. You can see though it did kind of seem to increase, I'm sorry, decrease a bit on the local desktop instance of OpenShift from 2018 till today. So what do you use to run a desktop instance of OpenShift. So we have code ready containers is the first one, the first option mini shift is the second option OC cluster up is third container development CDKs for and then other. So we do see again, a big kind of uptick on code ready containers where in 2019 it was at about 39% and has gone to 60, 64% or so, which is exciting. And we do see mini shift declining. So, as well as OC cluster up. CRC really are these people rich with large laptops. It's entirely possible that they're running CRC and VMs in their environment right like we don't necessarily know the underlying infrastructure CRC do we, we don't get telemetry on that right. I did see some data on most installed CRC versus installed to AWS or installed to Google's cloud or and there was a surprising amount of adoption on CRC so you're right I don't know whether that is 100% of that is going on to laptops. You could definitely run it in a large VM hosted somewhere. So yeah that's totally a valid valid way of setting this up. And so this one is around which local desktop instance of other container platforms do you use in Docker run. So, again Docker runs first mini cube second pod man run third other and then Docker swarm so again just interesting interesting information. And this is aligned. Now we pull back in the CNCF survey, where the top Kubernetes environments are mini cube 37% for them on prep Kubernetes installations which is 31% and Docker Kubernetes which is 29%. So, for comparison, interesting. I think I'll just do this one last one, which editors do you use. And with this we're seeing BS code is number one. We do see an increase in fine. Yeah, yeah, we, yep. So VS code first vi second eclipse ID or red hat container ready studio, IntelliJ and JetBrains ID user fourth them as this. And then we get to visual studio code ready workspaces eclipse che and on and on underneath. But yes code vi and eclipse ID are the most popular editors for us. And so that's kind of where we stand in this more there but I think we're three minutes before the hour so I think we probably made made it through quite a bit of this. Any questions or comments around what we see today. No, but there's like a lot of great chat. And I will make sure that you have all that feedback. After I get off here today how about that. My favorite comment from this page is is a these are all just YAML editors now. It's all YAML editors. I am a calendar driven YAML engineer. Still one of my favorite phrases yeah. All right, well thanks very much. Hey Ryan do we happen to have a link to that server that we put in last week. Yeah, let me see if I can find that real quick in our last minute or two. I had a link last time let's see. Yeah, so last week we had this little survey around you know what would you like to see in the developer experience office hours going forward. We kind of, Ryan did a great job at like notating some of the different types of options that we can provide and really getting feedback from you all to make sure that we're sharing what you want to hear so you can find that quickly. Yeah, trying to get it right now let's see. Actually, I think I might have tweeted it somewhere along the way. Let's see send this. The link with a short URL. Got it. All right. Perfect. Thank you. Yeah, pasted that into chat. And I should get a shorter URL for folks tuning in later, but yeah, there's a somewhat shortened URL. We would love to hear your ideas for additional topics on the show. There's a fill in the blank area at the bottom of that feedback form so definitely let us know if you have more topics you would like to see. And thank you to everyone who contributed in chat today. You've made it fun and engaging for me and I definitely appreciate it. So thanks again. Thanks to Serena and Steve Spiker. Did he help out with some of this? Yeah, thanks to both of you all on this excellent survey data. Really, really cool stuff in there. No problem. Thank you guys. Yeah, thank you all for tuning in up next. We're going to be talking about Stack Rocks, our most recent acquisition. So this will be a fun stream, but I've got to cut over to that. So thank you all for tuning in. We will see y'all next week or in the next minute or two. Take your pick. Thanks everybody. Have a great week.


One and welcome to Think Tech Hawai'i's Dokomomo Hawai'i show. I am the host for this week, Dysoto Brown and the historian of vision. And we have two guests today from Dokomomo who we're going to be talking about a specific subject that they have worked. And can I ask each of you to introduce yourselves and say where you work? Sure. I'm Allison Chu with Dokomomo Hawai'i. And I am Alyssa Carson with Dokomomo Hawai'i. And where do you also work in addition to your work at Dokomomo? So I am an architectural historian with Fung Associates. And I am an architect also with Fung Associates. And Dokomomo for those who are not familiar with it is an organization, it's an international organization that is focused on mid-century architecture. I was told the time period is approximately 1930 to 1980 and to the study of it and the preservation of it and the dissemination of information about it. So what are we talking about today specifically? Would you like to go ahead? Okay. Today we are talking about mixed culture, mixed modern, mixed modern, I guess Asian architecture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the thing to bring up that's relevant for this is that here in Hawai'i we have a mix of different cultures. Primarily that came about in the 19th and 20th centuries because of the sugar industry. So lots of us who live here now have ancestors who came here to work primarily in the sugar industry. But these were people mostly from Asia but there were some European immigrants as well. So that became what we have today in terms of a very mixed culture. And what we're going to look at is how that mixed cultural mix was shown in architecture and buildings of the time period. So let's go to our first slide. And tell us what this is. So this is the Honolulu Museum of Art. And this was built in 1927 by Bertram Goodhue. And we actually started this, wanted to start this presentation off with this photo because this kind of, to us, kind of started this multicultural, architectural, the history of it. And it's because of, we think it's because of Anna Rice Cook who was a philanthropist and she was from a prominent missionary family and an avid art collector and she just loved Eastern Asian art. And so she demolished her residence to build this building and she had this really big vision and concept to kind of bring the Eastern and Western cultures into this building. So if you can go to the next slide, you can see within the building we have a Chinese courtyard and a Spanish courtyard that kind of represents bringing these kind of these two ethnic cultures together in one. Correct. And I think we can also point out too that those are the wings of the museum that have the Asian art as well as the Western or the European art.  And those are again physical delineations of those two different collections, but they're all together in one building. And one of the things that we were talking about before the show, which I was bringing up was that not only were, not only do we see these elements brought into architecture but we also see them in the materials that people were putting in their homes and it wasn't just ethnically Japanese or Chinese people who were either using these things, having elements of these architectural elements or just those pieces of our homes. So it had spread even in the early 1900s, late 1800s, to people who were not of those cultures. Yes. Right. Right. Okay. Let's keep going. Yes. Next slide. So because Anne Rice Cook demolished her home, she had to build a new home. So she hired Charles Dickey and Hartwood to build her new home, which is now the Spalding House, which is what you see, and is built in 1925. And this also, because she really liked Eastern Asian art, she really pushed Charles Dickey and Hartwood to incorporate a lot of this Asian-inspired details into her home. So as you can see, you can see there's a lot of Asian details with the columns and the screens. And if you can go to the next slide, you can see in the railings and the screen doors. So it's throughout her whole entire residence. And something else we talked about, which I think you can see in the picture on the left, there are elements of Chinese calligraphy that come up in not only sometimes in wrought iron railings, but also in wooden screens that sometimes are over windows. And we see this here in this home, but you can find these elements in other homes and other businesses during the time period that we're talking about too. And that's one of the exciting and fun things that we talked about a lot because I kept thinking of different examples of these things that we're talking about. Yes. Right. Okay. Next slide, please. And then while Charles Dickey and Hartwood was designing Anna Rice Cook's residence, they were also hired to design the Alexander and Baldwin building, which is built in 1929. This reflects the sugar industry, which Alexander and Baldwin was founded upon. So there is a lot of ties with the Chinese community. You can see a lot of Chinese elements that influence the design of this building. And then if you can go to the next slide, you can see the water buffalo heads. And then, well, we don't have the picture here. But on the columns at the entrance, there's like the long life symbols and a lot of other Asian details throughout the building's exterior. And let me also point out that at the time this building was built, there still were water buffaloes used living here in the Hawaiian islands who were plowing rice fields. So this was not a totally exotic symbol at the time because there still were the animals themselves in use, brought, of course, from Asia. I don't think we have any left anymore, but for a time they were still quite common. Well, and then one of the other things that we had talked about with the plantation labor, right, at that time period was the Chinese and Japanese were some of the earlier sets of immigrants that had come over to help build the plantation, I guess, to, well, to work in the plantations. And then later there were Korean and Filipinos and this constant stream of new immigration happening. And so all of that eventually has an influence in Hawaii's architecture. Oh, yeah. And it's community. Absolutely. And foods. And food. And music. And no, really. And that is why what we're talking about, again, is architecture. But the elements are all there for a whole part of our entire existence here. Exactly. So after Alexander and Baldwin's building was built, Charles Dickey and Hartwood split. And Dickey took on a bunch of different architects who actually probably helped broaden the design of incorporating Asian design details in their architecture. So we're talking about Roy Kelly, James Sims, Kenji Onandera, Vladimir Asipov, and Kenneth Roig. And that's just a few that Dickey took on. And they're all from this time period, too. We're all talking about the modernist time period in the mid-century. Century, correct. Right. So then if you can go to the next slide. So then after that, Dickey passed away in 1942. And so we have a new generation of architects. And two of the most prolific ones with Asian design influence was Hartwood and Hego Fuccino. So Hartwood designed the one on the left and Hego Fuccino designed the building on the right. And they're both Christian churches, however. Yes. Yes. So they have Asian elements, but they're actually Christian. Yes. Which is the whole point. Yes. Right. Okay. Can you go to the next slide, please? And then so at the same time, Hawaii is going through statehood. And then we have right here is the East-West Center. And in 1940s, 50s, Greg Sinclair, which was the president of the University of Hawaii in Manoa, he envisioned Manoa as a Pacific crossroads and had this vision of designing this center for, I guess, for the conferences. Yes. Thank you. And also for students to interact as well from those other countries, too. Exactly. So this is kind of why we have the East-West Center at Manoa. And this was designed by I.M. Pei in 1963. And the landscape architect was Kenzo Ogata. And I think what's so great about this picture that you selected is that it really showcases the sort of stature that the architecture was going for at this time to really represent the sort of the stateliness and the prestige of government in this combination of the East-West influence. And if you can go to the next slide, please. And then so this is Kennedy Theater across the road from the East-West Center, also designed by I.M. Pei using the same type of architectural details. And then if you can go to the next slide. So in addition to the government architecture that was being built, you know, we see other influences coming in with the 1961 Wong and Wong Taiwanese consulate building, which is on the Polly. And you can see the upturned roof, concrete roof forms. And they have a very distinct Asian element. You can kind of see on the right side of this image, there's a moon gate. There's the red detailing. And it's very Asian and very distinct and iconic. Yeah, and very modern too. Very modern. Because it's got this swoopy, kooky, canopy thing that was very popular at that time. Very unique.  Pardon me for bumping into you, but yeah. So this one is really unique. We both really love this image. And this particular little house that we stumbled upon in Kaimuki, it's a 19, we're guessing 1960s or so, you know, private residential home. And it's just on this lovely residential street. And we happen to see that it had a moon gate with an inset doorway. It's got these geometric side windows and other structural and Japanese railing elements on the side, which you can't see in this photo, but we really just loved it. We just found this so charming. Actually when I was talking to my dad about it, he said when he grew up, he remembered the moon gate and some of the trims being red at one time. Yeah. We had that discussion. Yes. And speaking of which, well, let's go to the next picture because that's exactly what was going on with this apartment building, our co-op, excuse me. Yes. Tell us more. So this was built in 1956 and designed by a gentleman named Herbert Beyer. And this was the first co-op building in Hawaii. So Hawaii was actually the first state to allow condominiums. And you mentioned De Soto that the railings here, which are turquoise, were actually painted red when the building was first built. That's the way I remember it. And that's like what we just said. And with the Taiwanese consulates, you pointed out the columns are red. That would be in keeping with architecture of both China and Japan, particularly for religious architecture, and then royalty, et cetera, that had red detailing in the same way. Okay. Well, let's go to the next picture. And modernist butt with Chinese hands. So this is the 1954 United Chinese Society building in Chinatown. It was designed by Clifford Young. And you can see that it has very streamlined architectural, you know, a structure to it. That's very streamlined. Very modernist and simple in its sort of box, you know, in its box form. And it's got these lovely precast, concrete words on the facade of the building. And a lot of society buildings and social clubs were being built after the war because some of the Asian American groups had been prohibited from gathering during World War II and in the years following that. And so we really see this proliferation of gathering spaces after the war, which included, as you had mentioned, the veterans, the 442nd and 100th Battalion groups. Next picture. And then we have Hongwanji's, which were also proliferating across the island, as well as other churches. And so this is actually the interior of the 1962 Pololo Hongwanji. And it was designed by Robert Katsuyoshi, who was a partner with Hego Fuccino. And we had learned that the Pololo Hongwanji had actually been rebuilt after the war, and Reverend Maury had been interned during World War II. And so after he returned, he was able to rejoin his wife and start rebuilding the community. And so they did so at the Pololo Hongwanji. Okay, next. Well, let's, oh, this is the cool one too, yes. This is the breakers, you said. The breakers, yes, built in 1953 by Edwin Bauer. And this actually, this has some lovely Japanese elements to it. It has that distinct Asian roof line with the wood shingles. And then on the interior, it used to have, I don't think these are still there, but it had shoji dividers on the interior rooms. Right. And I was remembering too, we were talking beforehand, that that was very common place for a number of other hotels locally. Plus, it was considered chic in the United States at that time for modernist homes. And they weren't actually making them like real shoji. They didn't have paper. They were using a translucent or a darker or a plastic upon which the wooden frame would be put. So the effect visually was similar, but it wasn't as fragile as a wooden door is. So it's a shoji door actually. Right. Correct. Okay, next picture. Okay, so next we have the PQE Haught building, which is in Chinatown. And it was designed in 1965. It's actually one of the last overtly Chinese buildings in Chinatown. Right. And you can see the red columns with the golden intertwined dragons. And what we learned from one of our Dokomomo talk stories, which was pretty fascinating, is that the columns with the dragons were actually built and designed to be white. And then they were later painted red and gold. Yeah, to make them show. Well, which is good. Next we've got a modern building. Let's go to that. So yeah, this is one of our sort of dear to our heart buildings. It's the American Savings Bank, originally Liberty Bank, which was Chinese owned. And they have Chinese elements you had mentioned, the calligraphy element used graphically. And so you can see at the bottom of the screen here, we have the symbol, the Chinese symbol. It's sort of simplified here, but it's the Chinese symbol for longevity. And they used to have tile screens. And the big coins at the counter. That's also, yes. That's very good, too. Well, it's a bank, and it's very appropriate. Right. And the Chinese coins themselves are graphically interesting. There we go. OK, and this one, by the way, I've always thought was very cool because it predates the Hawaii State Capitol, but it looks very similar to it, a smaller version of it. OK, next. And this is kind of interestingly, well, this is the Rainbow Bazaar at the Hilton Hawaiian Village Hotel. And if I may go ahead and say it incorporates a lot of exotic elements. This is put together for the experience of tourists coming here and saying, oh, what a cool exotic place this is. But it's cultural appropriation. It's something that we probably wouldn't do today. In other words, to just take things from other cultures and put them all together as entertainment. Right. And you had said that this is probably going to be demolished. Yes, that we've recently got word that this will probably be demolished soon. And so this is, I mean, I guess this is our talk is to kind of exemplify some of our existing architecture as well as some of the stuff that we are slowly losing. Yes. And not so slowly sometimes. And not so slowly, yes. Yeah, and we were also talking about some other buildings that we've already lost that were very beautiful that fit into this Asian amalgamation that we were talking about. Well, we've got just a few more things to do before we come to the close. And let's go to our next slide because this is something that you both worked on, correct? Actually, this. No, OK, never mind. We've actually learned a lot from this, but this was done before our time. Oh, I didn't realize it was that old. OK. So a lot of these buildings that we've been talking about from the mid-century era were researched and collected in a context study done by our office in 2012. And so you can read all about it online. You can download the report. This report. At our website, fanghawaii.com. And a lot of the buildings that we've been discussing that are also in this report will be showcased at the symposium. Right, next slide. This is exciting. There's going to be a Dokomomo convention here. Yes, so we're going to have, we're going to actually, our chapter, Dokomomo US White Chapter, is hosting the Dokomomo National Symposium in September, December, as you can see, September 25th to the 28th. It'll be a three-day with one extra special day convention. And so we hope that everyone can join us. Boy, I'm going to be there. And I'm going to do a talk, too. And we will be, too. Oh, boy, I really didn't know that. Well, OK, that's coming up. And I am very excited about that. That's September of this year, 2019. And let's go to the next slide to hype some of the people who are involved. Yes. So these are the different sponsors for the upcoming symposium. And of course, we're all grateful that they are doing so, so that we can be there to tell people about stuff. And our next slide is also some of the other partners, too. We actually have so many sponsors right now that we have two slides for them. Hurrah! And if anybody else wants to be a sponsor, they are more than willing, or we're more than willing to. Of course. You'll take money. Take money. That's right. OK, well, that brings us to the end of this show. And I told you it would go quickly. And it did go very quickly today. It went very quickly. It did. Thank you both for being here. Thank you, Soto. Thank you, Soto. And this is the end of our Doko Momo show for this week. We've got an upcoming schedule of more Doko Momo shows intermingled with human-humane architecture shows. I'm going to be doing a lot of them, so I'll be here. We'll look forward to it. Thank you so much. And thank you all, everybody, for watching. And we hope to see you again next time. Until then.


Good evening to all those participants who are watching us live on the YouTube and those who have connected on the Zoom, on this platform. Today is a special session because we take the session into, I can say, into two parts. One is the judicial perspective on gender, where Honorable Mr. Justice S. Ravindra Bhatt would share his insights and the second part we can say is split into social gender perspectives. By Justice Roshan Dalvi, those who have been connected with Beyond Law CLC, they know that former justice from Bobby High Court has given her insights on different perspectives. And we thought of connected with these two eminent speakers because we know they are quite close and their judgments speak for the volumes on the perspectives of gender. And therefore, when this topic came in our mind, the first thing was that we should connect with them and we requested Justice S. Ravindra Bhatt and Justice Roshan Dalvi. Both have been kind enough to accede to our request. And before we start for the session, we would like to introduce Honorable Justice S. Ravindra Bhatt, though he needs no introduction as such. But as they say that still those who have connected for the first time on the social media, you would like to introduce the words regarding his wisdom automatically from the judgments which he penned or wherever he speaks. And the judgments are always in a simple and elucidated manner, which are simple to understand. And they also gave a different spectrum of thought process, not only which ignites the judicial mind, but also to a common man. Justice S. Ravindra Bhatt studied law and completed his LLB. From Campus Law Center, University of Delhi in 1982, he was enrolled as an advocate with the Delhi Bar Council in 1982 and practice in Supreme Court, where he was enrolled as an advocate on record of that court in 1989. As a lawyer, Justice Bhatt practiced in public law, employment, education and constitutional disputes. He was appointed as an additional judge of Delhi High Court on 16th of July 2004 and as a permanent judge on 20th of February 2006. During his tenure as a High Court judge, he headed juvenile justice committee for four years and also presided first e-court in this country in 2009. While we speak of e-court and during these testing times, who could have thought that the perspective which came in 2009 would actually when the COVID come into being the e-courts not only for the purposes of filing etc. But the technology would be used for the betterment during those testing times. And we are grateful that he gave us that window to understand what could be in the e-system. He was appointed as the Chief Justice of High Court of Rajasthan on 5th of May 2019 and elevated as a judge of the Supreme Court of India on 23rd of September 2019. In his judicial career, Justice Bhatt has delivered many judgments and large number of them are important and they are referred in different courts, not only in the High Courts but also in Supreme Court of India. The most notable ones about the obligation of the Supreme Court and High Court judges to declare the personal assets to the Chief Justice and the coverage under the RTI Act and several diverse branches of civil law. Such as the right to the DNA evidence in paternity suits, public interest in the pharmaceutical patents, liabilities of the internet intermediaries, affirmative action, gender and disability law, criminal law, capital sentencing and international taxation. Justice Bhatt was the first High Court judge in the country to preside over paperless or e-court. He has presented papers on intellectual properties, right laws and attended international conference, including at the word trade organization in June 2015 and most recently at Deakin law conference in Melbourne in May 2017. He was also part of the Justice Bhinn Shri Krishna committee on arbitration reforms in India, set up in the law ministry by Government of India in January 2017. Once we look into it, I am reminded the opening lines of the Adhaar judgment is not important to be number one, but it is important to be unique. And the way Justice Ravinder Bhatt has stated his footprints on the digital, social and other judgments reminds us that I start from that line again. It's not important to be number one, but it is important to be unique because you are the only one. And his showing his indeniable marks in different perspective speaks of that. And when we talk of gender perspective, there are a large number of judgments which take us to this journey. But who can miss Air India versus Nargis Mirza, C.V. Mathuma versus Union of India. Vishakha versus State of Rajasthan, which gave a different perspective in terms of the gender law when we speak of different perspectives. How the Porsche Act was triggered off and how it has evolved and devolved with the flux of time. Sabri Mala, Triple Tlaq, Joseph Shein versus Union of India. There are so many judgments, but today is the day when we have Justice Ravinder Bhatt to share his insights on the judicial perspectives on gender. And Justice Roshan Dalvi as I said, on social gender perspectives. A book, Woman, Heart Trials and Cramps, speaks of that. Amongst these speakers, we also have Justice Vimla, a former judge from Madras, I quote. And also is heading the Law Commission in Madras. The Beyond Law C.L.C. team is enamored by the fact that they all have joined with us and all those participants who are watching us. We will be taking the question and answers at the end of the session. Without taking much time, I will ask Justice Roshan Dalvi to take over and give the introduction of the topic and we will take things forward hereafter. Over to you. Good evening Justice Bhatt, Justice Vimla, Vikas and all my friends. The topic is very topical and that is that gender is all pervasive.  There are so many facets of gender in everyday life for everyone because we live in families which have a grandmother, a mother, a sister, a daughter, a wife, all of them relate to gender. So and it's not only for women, it is for all things relating to the sociological aspects of what womanhood and manhood is. So that is what we deal with. And therefore we have said that it will be divided into two parts. Justice Bhatt first, for the judicial perspectives, I will give you the legal and social perspectives a little later. Thank you. So Justice Bhatt for you. Good evening Justice Roshan Dalvi, Justice Dr. Vimla, Mr. Vikas Chhatrat organizes of this event and all participants joining us virtually for this webinar. I thank Beyond Law CLC for inviting me to speak on this topic on the occasion of release of Justice Dalvi's wonderful book. Having received an advance copy of the manuscript of her Trials and Trials, I have to admit that I'm wholly enjoying reading Justice Dalvi's journey in this field. And I'm grateful that she has taken the time to so comprehensively pen her learnings and reflections for the benefit of others. Written in accessible and simple language, this comprehensive work promises to be a great resource, not just for those who are interested in gender studies and related legal frameworks, but those entirely uninitiated to the law as well. I congratulate her for this worthy contribution and hope it will receive wide readership. Since the topic is very broad and the level of nuance a short webinar may not may be insufficient to cover in, I wish to briefly address you on broadly three themes. Firstly, special provisions under article 15, under the article 15 framework of the constitution. Secondly, the history of gender sensitization through legislative action. And thirdly, the limits or lack thereof in contemplating the concept of gender within the constitutional text and language. In doing so, what we will come through is that is the interminable as interminable impact or the role of courts for good or for worse in shaping all these three aspects. In India, the general rule of non-discrimination embodying in articles 15 one and two prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, religion, caste, sex or birth and forms the content of a negative right. Articles 15 three and 15 four on the other hand, permit special provisions in the form of affirmative affirmative action or a or reservation, allowing the state to use these attributes as indicators of backwardness or historical wrong, which in turn forms the content of a positive right. Protective discrimination or affirmative action can be characterized as overt action by the state to facilitate equal opportunity, participation and diversity that transcends historically and socially marginalized identities. To put it simply, articles 15 and 16 prohibit discriminatory treatment, but not preferential or special treatment of women, which is also in line with article 10 three, the declaration of elimination of discrimination against women 1967. Often there is a dangerous misconception that special measures are themselves discriminative in nature. Increasingly there is a need for greater sensitization against this notion. In fact, the Supreme Court in Champakandurai Rajan in 1951 had struck down a quota notification allotting a certain percentage on the basis of caste for admission to professional courses. This was rendered null and overridden by the First Amendment, the First Amendment to the Constitution. When the Prime Minister in Parliament while tabling the bill explained that in trying to attain equality, we have come up against certain principles of equality, laid down in the Constitution, that is a very peculiar position. We cannot have equality because we cannot have non-discrimination, for if you are thinking of raising those who are down, you're somehow affecting the status quo undoubtedly.  While this was in the context of caste, it is equally true even in relation to gender and sex. We must therefore bring to the large mass of people the idea and understanding that substantive equality demands that we make special provisions to further that equality. Courts have routinely recognized that special provisions contemplated in Article 153 and 4 are in fact a facet of Article 14 and vital to bring about equality among unequals. The judicial perspective or approach therefore would be to understand the importance of striking a just balance between the aspirational rights and the corresponding duties of the state to introduce affirmative measures, combating equality, inequality on the one hand, and the principle of equality as well as its command against practicing inequality in proscribed areas, sex, caste, religion, etc., being examples. In the context of caste and class, affirmative action policies manifested as the quota or reservation model for public education and employment and remain largely limited to it. Special provisions on the basis of gender however have been interpreted to include any special provisions that the state considers necessary in the interest of women. Thus this has developed more robustly and holistically through several legislations, some of which I will briefly address and discuss shortly. In interpreting Articles 153, Courts have recognized that it does not operate in a vacuum and often refer to Articles 39, 42 and other directive principles while examining such policies. In a judgment rendered in 1995 by Justice Sujata Manohar, that is, Government of Andhra Pradesh versus Vijay Kumar, the Supreme Court upheld job quotas for women in public employment on the reasoning that Article 153 is in fact wider than Article 164, which enables reservation in public employment for schedule cast and schedule drives and other backward classes. And said that such preferential quotas would fall within the ambit of special provisions. It was noted that insertion of clause 3 of Article 15 in relation to women is a recognition of the fact that for centuries women of the country have been socially and economically handicapped. As a result, they are unable to participate in the socio-economic activity of the nation on affording of equality. It is in order to eliminate this socio-economic backwardness and hence in a manner that would bring about effective equality between men and women, that Article 155 is placed in Article 15. 153 is placed in Article 15. Legislative, however, reservation for women are limited. The main reason being that gender is not an identity attribute around which political mobilization happens as it does around the lines of religion, caste and region. The 73rd and 74th amendment, which mandate quotas for women and panchayats and municipalities respectively, demonstrate how reservations can help in redistributing power through participation and representation, which have been upheld by the courts on past occasions. The women's reservation bill, which had been framed in 2008, similarly mandated a certain quota of one-third that is 33% reservation for women in Lok Sabha and state legislative assemblies. But that bill has lapsed. Many states have, however, made some quotas, 30%, 25%, etc., in certain segments of public employment. The court's jurisprudence is replete with examples relating to combating direct and indirect discrimination based on the equality doctrine of Articles 14 and 15. Many years ago, in Mutammah, which Mr. Chhatrat adverted to, the Supreme Court recognized the unfairness and discrimination apparent in a service rule, which required a woman official of the Indian Foreign Service to secure permission for getting married and armed the government with the power to terminate her services if it was satisfied that her family and domestic commitments are likely to come in the way of the due and efficient discharge of her duties as a member of the service. The Supreme Court outlawed that rule. More recently in Secretary of Ministry of Defense versus Babita Punea, this court noted that the discriminatory nature within the army of limiting the status of women officers and offering differential or no retrial or other benefits to them. The central government's policy to offer permanent commission only to women officers who had served less than 14 years, citing physical limitations of older women officers, was also held to be unacceptable for violating their fundamental rights. In another case, an older one, I think it's 2009, Anuj Garg versus Hotel Association of India, the state enactment and regulations prohibited employment of women in any part of the premises in which liquor or intoxicating drugs were consumed. The court opined that such a restriction was violative of Article 15, as it resulted in a restriction to employment based on sex of the individual. Despite it being a case of direct discrimination, an impact based approach was also employed and discussed extensively. Recently in another case, Hotel Priya, which also relates to regulation of dance bars, the court examined a seemingly neutral policy or regulation which had a disproportionate impact on female performers and required the court to look through the intersectional limits of class and gender. The rule limited the number of male and female performers in, I think this was music bars, which do equal in number, inordinately and arbitrarily restricted women's employment, as it is predominantly them that work in these establishments. As you can see a lot of these cases arose in the context of public service or employment, as these intersections and differential power equations are rife with such circumstances. The Sabri Malar Temple entry case offers a different illustration. While considering access, more particularly Article 15-2, the Supreme Court brought an interpretation of Article 17 into this framework, making it more enforceable. It was held at exclusion of menstruating women from religious places and practices on the justification that they are considered impure. That time amounts to a form of discrimination akin to exclusion of oppressed caste as untouchable. Empowered by Article 15-3, the state has time and again, and sometimes directly as a result of the court's prodding, made positive interventions in the form of policies and legislations for protection of women. The infamous Mathura rape case and the consequent amendments to the law. More recently the Nirbhaya case and the resulting criminal law amendments in 2013 have led to rapid development in the punishment of crimes against women. From the famed Rupandeval Bajaj case, where the Supreme Court in the absence of a provision read protection of women against sexual harassment into Article 354 and Section 309 of the Indian Penal Code, we have come a long way. The IPC now includes new offenses which have been outlawed and made punishable, acid attacks, voyeurism, stalking, sexual harassment, etc. And amended definitions of existing offenses like rape. The Protection of Women from Domestic Violence Act 2005 is another example of the state taking requisite steps to provide a framework which prioritizes protection of women. The provisions of this act have been interpreted liberally over the last decade by the courts to expand the scope of protection to numerous domestic relationships. Recently, a judgment of the Supreme Court has also tried to iron the creases between the overlap of this act, the Domestic Violence Prevention Protection of Women from Domestic Violence Act and its conflict with the Senior Protection to Senior Citizens Act. In Vishaka, noting the lacunae in domestic law in 1997, the Supreme Court relying on Articles 51A and 42 prescribed guidelines and norms based upon the seed of framework for the protection of women in workplaces and other institutions. This was in recognition of their fundamental rights under Articles 14 and 15 and their right to life under Article 21, which includes the right to live with dignity. And lastly, under Article 19, the right to practice any profession or carry on any occupation, trade or business, which includes a right to safe environment free from sexual harassment. And pursuant to this judgment, almost 16 years later, Parliament enacted the sexual harassment of women at workplaces, prevention prohibition and redressal Act 2013 to provide protection against sexual harassment of women at the workplace. This enactment, I think, would be a game changer just as the Domestic Violence Act has been. The term workplace under Section 2O of this act includes all private sector organizations, that is, any organized or unorganized sectors, which courts have routinely interpreted widely so as to widen the protective scope of the act, as is the case with the interpretation of the Domestic Violence Act. Empowerment of women or gendered minorities relies heavily on their material and economic independence as one of its preeminent prerequisite. The bulk of the barriers faced with women while pursuing this economic independence is inequality in wages and discrimination resulting from their biological role of childbearing and the lack of safety and lower social position. The offer of suffer in our deeply and historically patriarchal society. Parliament and other state legislatures have found it fit to enact beneficial legislations that address these concerns. Like the Metternative Benefit Act of 1961, the Equal Remuneration Act 1976 and the Sexual Harassment Act of Women Prevention, etc. at Workplace Act 2013. The Equal Remuneration Act was preceded by the 1975 ordinance, promulgated in the year known as the International Women's Year, to give effect to the mandate of Article 39 of the Constitution. While applying the provisions of these acts, courts have often relied upon provisions of Article 14 and 15, in addition to the directive principles as the source of power and reasoning. For instance, in Mackinon Mackenzie versus Audrey DeCosta, the Supreme Court held that paying a lesser wage to female stenographers, termed as confidential ladies stenographers, was violative of the act and resulted in gender discrimination. Equal wages and remuneration for the same work or similar work of a similar nature and prevention of discrimination of employment on the basis of gender is now a guaranteed right located squarely within the provisions of the Constitution. The Metternative Benefit Act II traces its source to Article 42, which mandated the state to legislate on this subject. Now, with a relatively progressive policy of leave on the occasion of pregnancy or miscarriage, this act guarantees that women receive wages and remuneration during the period that penalizes dismissal on the ground of pregnancy. Given that women face acute bias, both direct and indirect, based on their reproductive ability, which sharply affects their career trajectories and consideration for progression. These safeguards help mitigate some of these concerns. The Factories Act contains other protections such as creating and maintaining precious provisions for separate washrooms, restriction of working hours, etc. Implicit in these protections is that the state acts as parents' patriot, which is bona fide in the benefit of women. But I urge you to critically examine and question this as well. Undoubtedly in the past, given our temporal context in society, there was a need for the state to soup in and protect its citizens. Here women, in the absence of their ability to do so. However, this has often manifested as a restriction imposed on women rather than an improvement of the conditions that surround them. Consider, for instance, the restriction to working hours only between 6 a.m. to 7 p.m. window, prescribed under section 66 of the Factories Act. State governments may vary this but cannot include 10 p.m. to 5 a.m. or the time period between 6 a.m. and 7 p.m. as per the BDN Cigar Conditions of Employment Act, which predominantly applies to women. Note that this is not a labor exploitation concern or fixed number of working hours, but instead of a fixation of timings itself for the benefit of women. This is quite obviously premised upon protection for security and safety concerns, particularly to women. But it is achieved by restricting opportunities for women who, for example, may ideally prefer night shifts to balance their domestic rules without placing the owners on the threat of violence and instead controlling it. So in that sense, the state and the employer is actually absolved of the responsibility of providing security or additional facilities. Similarly, section 22 of the Factories Act prohibits women or young persons from working on or near machinery in motion or the prohibition of women working in mines under section 46 of the Mines Act. Both of these presuppose the physical capabilities of women and remove them from the ambit of employment altogether. Such provisions remain in the statute book and their relevance can strongly be debated, given that society still remains largely unsafe for women. But I urge you to consider that rather than a paternalistic approach that imposes restriction on women for their protection, we need to rethink our systems and work towards ensuring that the conditions they find themselves in are controlled and safe. So as to enable them instead to put it simply from a model of restriction, we need to progress to a model of liberation in the long run. This was recognized in the Anuj Gur case as well, where the court noted that the protection offered to women was in fact victimizing them. And instead of putting curbs on women's freedom, empowerment would be a more tenable and socially wise approach. This empowerment should reflect in the law enforcement strategies of the state, as well as law modeling done in this behalf. The recognition of the possibility of men also being victims of gendered violence is still conspicuously absent in Indian law and requires nuance, that is perhaps best left for another occasion.  I would therefore also be remiss if I fail to acknowledge that my speech till this point has treated gender as a binary, which certainly it is not. Unfortunately, however, with the history of development of gender in law, both by the legislature and the court was limited to this restrictive conception until more recently. The identification of target groups for affirmative action has developed in the last two decades tremendously. Historical inequities play a significant role in the identification of target groups, but their role must be viewed contextually as well as contemporaneously. In one judgment, Ram Singh, the Supreme Court held that an affirmative action policy based solely on historical injustice would result in under-protection of the most deserving class of citizens and suggested consideration of such policies for transgender community acts, for example. The court recognized that there exists new and constantly evolving group of citizens who may be legitimate focus of an affirmative action policy, and the state is obligated to identify that those groups instead of only concentrating on establishing and enabling groups of citizens to recover lost ground in claiming preference and benefits on the basis of historical prejudice. This builds on the NALSA judgment, which firstly first legally recognized transgender persons as the third gender and provided a framework for the protection, access to resources and enforcement of their fundamental rights. The framework contemplated in this judgment is therefore wider in some senses than the legislation that followed. The state of Karnataka recently took heed of this and as a result of court proceedings, challenging a notification calling only men and women to apply for special reserve constable force, force amended the Karnataka civil services general recruitment rules to provide one person horizontal reservation to transgender persons in government jobs. Locating the right to dignity and the right to privacy within the right to life in Puttaswamy and Navte-Johar has further entrenched the decisional autonomy of not just women, but also sexual minorities and vulnerable communities. The understanding that gender is in fact characterized by social conditioning and is distinct from biological sex, which is, which too is not binary, has been woefully slow, but not absent. Not only does it require sensitization and training, but also tremendous unlearning of our own conditioning and preconceptions. I will admit, I don't claim to have a complete understanding of the nuances and language of these identities, and it remains a continuing education, much like for most others. In this context, an interesting illustration and recognition of this comes from a recent judgment, the Madrasai Court, where the court passed an expansive set of guidelines, building on the spirit of the Supreme Court's decision in Navte-Johar and Nalsa. The judgment barred the practice of conversion therapy that claims to change the sexual orientation of queer people or gender identity of transgender people to cisgender, and issued directions for the protection of LGBTQIA community against discrimination in the absence of legislation. In arriving at these conclusions, the judge also expressly put on record his own preconception and the lack of understanding, which he remedied by seeking out psychologists and members of the community trying to educate himself. He quite correctly mentions that ignorance is no justification for normalizing any form of discrimination, and his judgment focuses on acknowledging the unlearning prejudices and stereotypes that we have to create space for acceptance of the LGBTQIA community. The court went on to explain that it is the legislature which has to make efforts towards mainstreaming the community by taking forward the steps already initiated by the courts in Nalsa and Navte-Johar. The last topic which I want to discuss is in relation to perpetuation of stereotypes and the power of language which has to put a stop to it. We must remember that even if women and men theoretically have the same opportunities, a lot of informal barriers apply to women. Due to historic prejudice and a general sense of disdain or indifference towards bettering the situation for a group of persons who are traditionally treated poorly. This includes women being paid lower wages held back on the presumption of inferiority and a lack of ability to commit to the workplace. A stereotypical view is women are preoccupied with their domestic and familial roles. Stereotypical and prejudicial understanding of women and their worth or capability has an insidious past which is not unique to India, though it may have its own special manifestations. As recently as in 1975, a judge in the UK was prepared to find a solicitor negligent for taking advice from a wife when the husband was available on the basis that a sensible wife would expect her husband to make a major decision. While awareness and reform in society will have to be through straight driven efforts and people driven movements, what the judiciary can contribute to is a conscious selection of language which remains a powerful tool in breaking through stereotypes and signaling a changed sense of what is acceptable and what is not. To achieve gender justice, it is critical that the judiciary avoid stereotypes and social biases to strengthen a judicial system that guarantees women access to fair and gender sensitive judgments. In Aparna Bhatt, through reference to the Bangkok general guidance for judges, the court was able to lay down guidelines, detailed guidelines to combat stereotypes used in judicial pronouncements and directed gender sensitive training to be undertaken for the bar, the bench and in legal education at the undergraduate level. The language that we use must neither trivialize the pain of the survivor to a crime nor condone the harm caused by the accused, thereby exposing the survivor to trauma again and again. And for this we must, as lawyers and judges, strip our vocabulary and language of the misogynistic conceptions prevailing in society. On an overall view of the aspects I've discussed today, on an overarching theme I want to draw your attention to is that the constitution has been employed in diverse facts scenarios to offer protection to women and gender or sexual minorities. The trilogy or triumvirate of articles 15, 14, 15 and 21 offers a powerful tool for anti-discrimination, even in the absence of legislative protection, which is what the courts have more often than not recognized. That is why often case law is what has paved the way or led to drafting some of these laws. The principles of substantive equality, anti-discrimination and autonomy are inherent in the constitution and can and must be used to counter action that challenges these rights. I'm confident that in the absence of, for instance, equal remuneration act, the court would still have been able to protect women against differential pay based on gender, because we have an anti-discrimination culture which is ingrained in our laws. Fortunately, unlike the US, where there is a vociferous debate and constant conflict between textualist and constitutionalist approaches, Indian constitutional interpretation has consistently enabled us very robustly to treat the constitution as a living document, unfrozen in time. Therefore, even though the constitution framers may have only contemplated gender as a binary, the Supreme Court and other courts have not been limited by this conception while recognizing the fundamental rights of queer persons and transgender persons within the provision of the constitution. Undoubtedly, the courts have not always been right. For instance, parts of the Nargesh Mirza judgment or Kaushal, which was overruled in Chohar, etc. There are some examples. History may not judge these decisions of the court well. In fact, it will probably judge them poorly, while others that have spoken off may be celebrated. But overall, the evolving developments reflect loosely, if not accurately, the evolving perspectives on gender in society in which the courts have been intrinsically involved. I would conclude with this quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg. And this is of course in the context of gender. As women achieve power, the barriers will fall. As society sees what women can do, as women see what women can do, there will be more women out there doing things and we'll all be better off for it. Thank you. Thank you, sir, for your insightful insights being given by you. In a short span, I would say that you have covered the entire bird eye view and as you said, there are too many celebrated judgments and there are too many perspectives, how it has evolved under article 15, article 21, article 19. You all speak off as to how the air hostess case within the cutoff, the superannuation age sector was challenged. There have been involvement and how the phase 2 and all have evolved. These all have given us why it is called as a living constitution.