This morning to more Hamlin remains in critical condition. We're waiting and hopeful for good news today will be joined by a counseling psychologist in sports mental health expert. Do not miss that it's valuable important information. Plus we'll get the very latest from Buffalo with Bill sideline reporter Sal Capaccio. Grateful for him for making time this morning. And here's the very latest to more Hamlin remains in critical condition.  According to Josh Reid who's the sports director at W. I. V. B. and Buffalo and others Hamlin is still in the ventilator. His uncle confirmed that he's gone from requiring 100 percent oxygen to 50 percent. That's a sign of some significant positive improvement. And this morning. Coley Harvey of ESPN said this he just chatted with DeMar Hamlin's family friend who's been making the rounds on social media keeping all of his fans updated. We thank Jordan for that. That cannot be easy. That must be exhausting. And he's carrying quite a burden. So we appreciate you. Jordan. He said there's a beautiful change that per Jordan and his family doctors overnight got promises promising readings that they have been hoping to see by the morning. Jordan couldn't go into specifics but progress appears to be made. And that is certainly different from where we're sitting here yesterday morning to kick off the show. And we you know want to hear updates. We'll hopefully hear them throughout today's program. And we have some great guests to keep us updated and to to begin to heal and not even heal just contextualize sort of what we experienced on Monday with some of these players experienced. And what hasn't changed from last time I saw you is that the outpouring of support the collective compassion is trifold. It is exponentially grown since 24 hours ago. It is a really powerful and beautiful thing. It's happening. It's what I talked about yesterday. Fans are continuing to comfort one another. There are conversations about humanity and hope and actions. The GoFundMe for Hamlin's charity has now surpassed six million dollars. You have NFL owners and stars like Tom Brady and a doll in making big sizable donations. That's compassion. They're suddenly just one NFL team. Isn't there. It's made up of players. It's made up of fans. It's made up of ownership. It's made up of most of the media and they and we as this one team all focused on one thing and that's the life of Damar Hamlin. He continues to fight some signs of optimism. All the prayers all the thoughts have to continue. We got to do right by hand. He's a positive force. We talked about it yesterday and will of course continue to do that here. Now most teams cancel their coaches media availability understandably as no one is thinking about football. Really think about that. Yesterday I have Mark Ingerman and he was answering questions and it was a beautiful conversation. And then when I said take me to your next snap it was as if I asked something he had not a football player someone who only thinks about football wired that way for years. Bama years in the league Pro Bowls all he's football stunned to be asked about football even even thought about what that might be. It really took him off guard and it was meaningful if you're really paying attention to those things because none of that matters. None of that matters right now. And I love seeing even the media even Peter King saying slow down. Let's wait for information. And we're all just circled around this one thing kind of like the Bengals and the Bills fans circled around to Mark Hamlin out there on the field on Monday night. Coaches didn't talk. They didn't have to talk. It got canceled. Some did. And I loved this moment from someone to talk about a lot on the show. Mike Tomlin yesterday was a personal relationship with Hamlin. Man it's a really personal thing for me.  Just got a lot of respect and love for him as a human being his commitment to the pursuit of his goals and dreams of doing what it is he's doing right now which is playing in the NFL and to watch him make personal decisions and make that a realization. It's just an honor to get to know young people like that. I was asked yesterday in an interview and I was sort of I had not thought about it. Who should we look to for leadership right now. Who should we look to. Should we look at you know the NFL who should we look at. And I hadn't really thought about it to be honest but my answer was coaches. It was McDermott and Taylor on Monday night and I do think it's going to be the Tomlin's the Vrables. He also spoke yesterday as well. It will be those coaches and anyone who helps foster an environment environment of what we're seeing right now which is vulnerability which is not exactly synonymous with NFL. NFL players NFL culture and if that shirts changed a little hasn't changed that much. Vulnerability is something that is sort of new that we're seeing and swallowing here that's permeating around the NFL world and really think about that. It's not the league. I said I didn't say the P.A. I'm not saying look to the media for leadership. I'm really looking at those coaches and anyone who wants to foster a place where people can come deal heal and have solutions and strategies on coping on how to make improvements going forward and can be heard. And so as we sit here and continue to up to you on tomorrow and continue to send our thoughts to him and his family as mother Nina to all the bangles and bills all the fans who are at home watching. We have not stopped thinking about this. I have not stopped thinking about this and this week as we do these shows I find myself learning about myself. I thought I find myself saying well we have to do something. The question what can we do was the first thing that I asked in our emergency production call that we had Monday while this was going on. What what are we going to do. And yesterday while we had guests on the show like Peter King. I'm thinking what I'm asking him what can we do better as a media group covering this. To me it's my coping mechanism. I think I've realized over the past 48 hours I'm an action person. I want control. I want to feel like I'm doing things. And I really think a lot of us out there feel that way. And we're hearing a lot about please provide mental health and we're seeing it in memos from the NFL. And what that might mean for these players for these coaches and for these fans and what the experience was like on Monday night.  Please welcome Dr. T. M. Robinson Mosley Dr. Mosley. Thank you for making time today. Good morning. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. How are you. I am I'm tired and concerned about tomorrow but I'm hopeful. That's beautifully said. I saw your tweet. I was looking at your Twitter feed this morning from the game and you said stop the game and you had a lot. It was all capitals. It was all exclamation parts. Can you take me through what you were thinking when that happened. Immediately when we saw the injury my wife is actually has a background in sports medicine. She practices medicine and immediately kind of identified. This looks like cardiac arrest. And from that moment the immediate thought was how do we immediately get help out to him. And then it shifted very quickly to recognizing that all of us that were watching including everyone there just witnessed a traumatic event and what we needed to do in that moment both to support Damar and his family with our thoughts our prayers and our actions but also what we need to do to take care of ourselves. We found out yesterday obviously your thoughts are with Damar above all else but you said traumatic event so you're saying everyone out there watching went through a trauma. Is that fair. Absolutely. Witnessing a traumatic event and when we think about trauma it's simply the emotional response that occurs after we've experienced something distressing. So witnessing that is indeed incredibly traumatic and what happens when we see something that is emotionally distressing. I can't stress this enough is that we then also have a physiological psychological mental and emotional response to that. And after seeing this what is really normal is feeling a combination of intense fear feeling overwhelmed feeling angry feeling numb sometimes feeling all of these things at once also feeling very confused because our brains are trying to make sense of what we just saw and it is grappling and really struggling to understand what's happening. So in the aftermath of witnessing a traumatic event whether kind of immediately or even the days following it will be really common to experience intrusive thoughts kind of replaying what happened having flashbacks or nightmares difficulty sleeping. It's really hard to concentrate. You may be really dazed. It's also not uncommon to feel this in our bodies. So headaches GI issues having a stomach ache. It can be really challenging for us to do regular tasks that we typically would do. And so that is something I want to impress upon folks is that it's normative to have this response is actually more unusual not for us to be impacted as you've I think really eloquently stated your process but also voicing how many other people are feeling the same way. Well Doc I came to terms of that on the phone with you yesterday and in about 20 seconds I was like this is how I cope with trauma. I say I'm not going to actually feel the trauma. I'm going to move past it blow past it and say where's my checkbook. Let me write the donation. And that's not necessarily is that a bad thing because there's so many people taking action right now as part of their soothing process. We all cope differently and the way that we cope is going to be unique to who we are as people. What trauma often does to us when we witness it or experience it unfortunately is this element of losing control feeling helpless feeling hopeless. So your example of having directed action is actually a really healthy way of coping because it allows us to identify what's within my control. What can I do because there are a lot of things I can't do. But I'm focusing on what I can control and how I can impact the situation to make it better both for me and the people around me. So I think there is really this really great quality around how do I show up in a moment. It's especially difficult and if it's action it's what does that look like in terms of controlling something within my control and something that's going to improve the situation that's within kind of my grasp. We're going to provide some strategies and solutions but our thoughts and our focus obviously with DeMar Hamlin's family also with the players on the field on these teams and and having to play yesterday doctor mostly we found out that week 18 it's going ahead and will proceed as scheduled. What are some you know and we I saw that full screen and we're talking not sleeping to the feelings you feel after witnessing something like that. And that's potentially through the TV not being their person not knowing and having a relationship with this person. So what are some of these challenges that the Bengals and Bill's players are going to face over the next few days and how should teams support them. So you are absolutely correct. It is very challenging to think about going back and playing. And the first initial thing is being able to acknowledge it. We can't say oh it's going to be fine. Everything is going to roll as as normal. We are in some really uncharted kind of circumstances right now. We have to acknowledge the risk is real and that fear and concern both for themselves but also for DeMar for the organizations. When you step out there it is it's risky it's high risk. Yes there's high reward but the risk is quite high. And so starting to be able to normalize that and name that is really important because it helps us to move forward to think about strategies to advise and support the athletes and you mentioned coaches as well. This is a very difficult situation as coaches as media as athletic trainers as support staff even front office and GM's the entire sport enterprise is impacted when there is a traumatic event a catastrophic injury. And so our output is really high when we're working in sport. It's intense. It's fast. We have to show a lot of agility. We have to translate that into the way that we show up and provide resources and care. So we have to game plan around how we're going to help folks take care of themselves. So having licensed mental health providers present on staff accessible whether that's through telehealth also physically there in the space because if you don't need it fine but if you need it it's there. It's this real kind of peace of mind to be able to have people on hand and have resources on hand for everyone. We're especially thinking about the players but we're thinking about everyone who's impacted in the organization and those who who know Damar and folks who don't. This is a very human experience to witness that. And so we want to make sure that everyone is equipped to have the tools and the resources because that impacts the outcome and also impacts whether people are able to show up at all. Dr. Rosely what are the do nots that you know on that list. It's nice to see those things. We talked yesterday about doing something soothing for yourself but positive and maybe those players are doing that coaches certainly trying to foster that that environment as well of openness. What are the do nots when it comes to this. So the first do nots are hard. The I like to do things in threes. I'll tell you what the third one is the first do nots would be avoid using drugs and alcohol as much as possible to cope without judgment. Often if we are drinking because we don't feel great or we're using some other substances because it helps us numb out or distract us or makes us feel better temporarily. It actually will be more harmful to our ability to cope and to heal because as I mentioned before if we're having difficulties concentrating or we're having a really hard time making decisions or we're not sleeping well kind of all of those things that culminates to impacting how we show up in the world not just performing at a high level but literally how we get through the day. So if we are using drugs and alcohol to cope especially at a higher rate it's going to impair our ability to heal and to cope. So we actually work against ourselves. Also in this moment I'm always concerned about an increase in accidents and an increase in injuries because we're already emotionally, psychologically, physically compromised and drugs and alcohol will impact that. It will actually make us feel worse in the long term. So those are the two immediate avoids. The third one is kind of a both and because listening right now is really important. So my kind of do not or to avoid is telling people that I know this sounds kind of counter but telling people it's going to be OK and you're going to be fine. We don't know that. We don't know. But we can say I understand and I'm here to listen when you need me. And a lot of what we try to do is tell people to get help and to seek help. But we have to think about a little differently because we look out and not in. So sometimes it's easier for us to recognize when our family members or friends or coworkers or teammates or struggling before even they are. So we have to create not only being thoughtful about how we are but how are the people that we care about offering to listen when people are ready to talk providing resources and having that on hand so that people don't even have to ask for them. They're available for them when they need them. And I want to get to some of those resources including 9 8 8 which you see here at the crisis lifeline which provides 24 7 free support and it's anonymous. We'll get to that. It's brilliant. You say the injuries you say it's it's all a lot doctor. Should they be playing this week. So that is a really difficult question. And I think it's a question that has to be given with great care. On one hand there are opportunities to use physical activity to use sport to really leverage what you talked about in terms of this really powerful unifying force around sport to bring people together and to move forward so that and I'm saying move forward not move on because there's no way to move on knowing what tomorrow and his family is going through. We don't move on. We move forward. And so there could be some opportunities I think to move forward and to and to play and to resume some activities. On the other side of it that is often going to be an individual decision and you mentioned coaching. It's going to come down to talking to the staff the support staff the coaches the trainers because even though we're now talking about mental health and sport and that's a new phenomenon this has been around forever. When we say things like you know his head's not in the game or it's between the ears or we talk about the twisties with Simone Biles or the Yips and baseball or cricket. All of these things are connected to your psychological performance and how that connects to everything else. So they're going to be some hard conversations around knowing whether you can go or not. And we have to be really thoughtful and think about the long term consequences of having people go in before they're ready because that means we are setting athletes up for further injury or for their accidents if they are not prepared to go. So whether you're whether you you know sprain an ankle or you pull a hamstring if you are not psychologically prepared to go into a game you could be risking the same kind of things you would risk with having a physical injury. So you want to treat them the same. And what you're talking about goes hand in hand with NFL culture and how much is it's changed and how much it needs to change because that player and I'm just going to pick one out and not to see T Higgins who's really been having a tough time and there have been some really irresponsible assholes out there making life hard for him when he's a human being. And I can't imagine how difficult that is. And I hope he's thrown his phone out of the window and all that you have to have him or so anyone be able to say coach I'm not going to play. I'm not going to play. I don't feel right. And that only happens if there's an environment where a player can feel like he can open up and say that be vulnerable not be not be called you know somebody who isn't giving it their all not not being part of the team and all of that. So I would ask you is there any specific advice you can give coaches around the league that are faced with this this week because I don't know this and I can't say this but there have to be improvements made on staffs when it comes to mental health not even aware you know clinical people on staff that can help with this right. I'm not saying it right please. Oh no you're doing great but you're absolutely right. Leadership coaches even front office we have to be committed to co-creating an environment that's conducive for these athletes to ask for what we need and then for us to offer what they need and to provide that as part of the system just a part of what we do and the work vulnerability we use quite a bit and I think it's great that we're normalizing it. I also when I'm working with athletes and working with coaches in fact I was texting with an NFL coach this morning because it is a very challenging time to coach right now but vulnerability is nothing but being authentic with the risk and football is risky already. So if you're already doing something high risk being authentic and being able to talk about your experience is really important. What's also potentially more important is being able to have leadership that creates the opportunity for you to be able to share that and then to get the support and the strategies and tools that you need in order to go out there and do your best. Or if doing your best means not now and they mean later it may mean I need a minute. It's being able to within the system create these opportunities for people to have what they need before they go out there and give their best especially with the circumstances being as high stakes and risky as they are right now. Dr. Moseley what advice would you give. It's a hard question. What advice would you give Commissioner Roger Goodell. The first advice that I always listen I sound like a broken record here but it's to listen. And we don't play listening. And I mean listening to understand and not listening to respond. Because before we can pull together a game plan or plan of action you need to know how people are feeling. We have to take a pulse on what people are experiencing across the league at the ball club level at the team level at the league level. There really does need to be an assessment of getting this data to recognize how people are feeling and what they think would be helpful right now. What do people need. And how do we then deploy that out across the organization and across the ball clubs. There may be some variations we understand that we understand everything may not be possible. But it's important to know and to get the data to recognize what that is because what you don't want to do. Is to act hastily and provide something that doesn't meet the needs and could be more harmful than helpful. So initially the listening getting information and then being able to show up with the recommendations that all of these stakeholder groups are sharing with you. Does it exist on staffs in the NFL a mental health expert or clinical psychologist. I think psychologists are on tape. I actually don't know I would love to know. So there are across the league it is mandated that there is at least one licensed mental health provider that is on site for a portion of the week. There are also performance specialists who do things a little differently but work in tandem with the person who was on site. I will say that there needs to be a lot of reinforcement and backup in these spaces especially around catastrophic events like this. This is you mentioned your emergency action meeting. Their emergency action plans that are put in place by sports medicine and by psychology staff folks both in college and in the pros. And what's important when something like this it's literally an all hands on deck. So whether it's people that you have that are already there or you're bringing in additional people there needs to be a real kind of show of force of care so that people can really have access to what they need. I liken it to when there is an event that's non sport related that's really catastrophic. You will see the Red Cross or other organizations provide additional support in the immediacy. We have a framework for that. So that's what I would recommend around this time. I'm really putting you on the hot seat here doctor you're so amazing for making I know I am but I'm here for you. I'm learning so much it's incredible. I think that there I'm imagining the tweets already when we post some of this stuff and there's a and I see it on all my stuff for the past week of just or in general just like oh the league's gotten soft or we can't look mental like there's a lack of appreciation. I think a little bit. What would you say to people who think that it was you know it wasn't a trauma. It's something that's part of the game that we like all of those sort of people. So no one is prepared to see a catastrophic injury. No one is prepared to see someone potentially die. And what's very jarring about this is that it is both sudden and unexpected and it happened to someone who was at the top of physical condition. Someone who is an elite athlete. So it's even more jarring and shakes our sense of consciousness when we see someone like that experience that also at the same time I hear that quite a bit that the you know things are getting soft. The challenge is that there were things that we didn't know the sport continues to evolve both in terms of how we coach the biomechanics how we tackle the rules are updated every single year. It only makes sense that how we provide care around performance and well being also has to evolve and has to change at a former athlete who said this a former pro player was like all these kids are soft but then also on the same breath admitted how hard his experience had been and how he wanted to do something differently. I wish his coaches would have recognized it. And so I think both things are true. On one hand it really sucks that you experienced that and I hate that you experienced it and since you did experience it we have to do better. We have to kind of when we know better we do better and that's the evolution of the sport and it has to also be the evolution of the services and resources and strategies that we deploy to keep athletes functioning at their best. It's a great answer as beautifully said one more for you and to add to this talking about the stigma changing I spoke I think I told you this yesterday when we spoke on the phone I sat down with Solomon Thomas before Monday Night's game it was in the morning and he's someone who does a lot of work he's partnered with Dak Prescott with 988 so we'll talk about that and give that resource that very specific resource it's much do love here on the show but he had this to say about the progress of what we're talking about in the league you're not new in the league six years now do you think it's changed as far as the stigma of these male professional athletes opening up talking about their mental health we saw the long way to go but I'll give a story my rookie in the league we had a team clinician at the Niners and she was sitting at the lunch table and one of my teammates told me I can't go sit with her because people would think I'm crazy and that was my rookie in the league and then after I started taking my end of my first year, my second year I have guys coming and checking on me asking me how I'm doing my third year I have guys asking me hey how do I get help hey where do I go if I need to take a family member to get help how do I start talking about these things they feel so weird and fuzzy to talk about my fourth year fifth year I have teammates telling me credit and crediting the best years of the career for going to therapy weekly therapy and it's like conversations that are changing like guys in the locker room who are new to mental health they're at least willing to have the conversations with me and listen progress is being made maybe not as quickly but it's evolving like you said thanks to the work that you do Dr. Moseley so we thank you so much and I just wanted to give some love to that specific resource that he is close with and it's 988 988 which you can call or text any time and get help comfortably absolutely absolutely and that's the way so it's just 988 call or text for any help of time and just praying and thoughts and that work needs to be done by all of us out there so thank you for all that you do to help the football community and get on with those coaches because I'm looking at them to make this thing happen I hope so my goal is that we take care of ourselves so we find better ways to take care of each other it's beautiful Dr. Moseley I mean you've got the same stuff in the background I couldn't be in love with you we'll be back after this on Up and Adams Thank you This is cool Buffalo rallying behind number 3 Damar Hamlin Saber star Tage Thompson What a night January 3rd 3 goals 3rd Hattrick of the season 30th goal of the season and the game winner was 3 minutes into overtime I know our next guest a big hockey fan as well joining us now Buffalo Bills Beat and Sidelan Reporter for WGR 550 Sal Capaccio thank you I'm doing as best I can you know it's obviously not about me being here but you know I went through that on Monday night obviously and tried to do your best job and best job we could reporting everything happening on the field but then obviously going through that situation and processing it all okay I mean I think yesterday was really harder I think for a lot of people because when you're kind of doing it and doing the job and then you kind of sit with it a little bit more yesterday it kind of there in Cincinnati you were at PayCorps Stadium as I understand it you I would love to hear you talk about this you saw Nina Damar's mother trying to get on to the field I did it's been a little tough to talk about so bear with me here for a second but you know everybody was on the field and they were working on Damar obviously and I was on the sidelines still there was some media going around and happened to see a woman down near the wall and she has a blue number three Bill's Jersey and she's a bit animated with the security not like upset animated but she's talking to him and she's looking at me and she's looking at other people and she's she says that's my son I want to be on the field my son and it was tough to see and it was tough to be a part of and you know what was happening you know they turned around and I'm sorry I turned around and Dane Jackson who actually was Damar's teammate at Pitt he must have known that where Damar's family was because he was looking up and he got the attention of the Bill's team Chaplin and their director player development Lynn Vanderbos and Lynn went over Lynn went over and in conjunction with the security it was there and Bill's security she could finally get on the field and ultimately when the ambulance actually left she and I was told his dad also got in the ambulance with him and you were on the field watching this yeah through the whole time and you know my job as the sideline reporter is quite frankly a lot of times just to watch for guys getting injured on a play like you see somebody limp off and you got a report to the producer situation I was standing the play was going if you're watching on TV left to right I was about maybe the 25-yard line of the Bill's and all I saw was a player collapsed backward and it's scary enough but honestly Kay like in this job in this role like we've seen that before guys get knocked out unfortunately and you have had injuries unfortunately and that was the first thought that came to mind then what happened was you saw the when the players know that quickly you know something's wrong so about a minute or two later watching everything happen and me and a couple of the the camera people were next to me we said are they performing CPR like it looks like they might be and we couldn't tell because there were bodies around but I'm thinking there's no way there's no way that's happening right here on this football field that they're doing it and then I thought no what they must be performing CPR for several minutes but I would tell you Kay that the moment that it got to me that it was a really horrific situation that something really bad was happening was when all of the bills players coaches and staff came off the field and what they did was they formed this really big circle around Damar and they had basically they were shoulder to shoulder they were holding each other they were locked in crying but they were standing so that Damar was behind them in their back and they were basically facing all of us and they did that they didn't want people to see what was happening they didn't want to see people to see how medical people were treating Damar and that just told me right there that something horrific was going on was there one person that led that said let's do this or was it everybody just all at once making that human wall um I don't know that for sure I'm assuming that you know word was just filtering and they saw what was going on and I know that you know this team takes a lot of cues from Shaw McDermott you know he's their leader and I wouldn't doubt if he was a big part of that but during the middle of that human wall and I'm glad Lisa described the same thing basically saying that during the middle of it guys were just they were so emotional and they were crying and they were bawling and you know a few players just stood out to me like especially the DBs every day with Demar the guys that are in those meetings with him all the time but Jaquan Johnson had a towel on his face and we couldn't stop sobbing and he was being consoled by one of his one of the trainers actually I believe and then I saw Tradavius White we all saw and Serran Neal they were just it was tough to watch these are people that you know you do this for a living you've covered this league for a while and you know they're viewed as larger than life and tougher than life that's what they do they're super human they go on and they play a teammate gets hurt and we pray for them and that teammate goes off and we play we play this was something like nothing I've ever seen before and to bring that human element so close to see all these guys and I'm close to them right I cover them I grew up in Buffalo I grew up a Bill's fan and I've been covering this team for 10 years I've been on the sideline for nine years you know these are people that I spend every day with and to see them going through this it just it was obviously very heart breaking and then the mom and on top of it we're all just hoping for Demar here and we're hoping for positive news we got I don't want to say it's positive news I'm not a doctor I can't say but what seems like you know the connotation of optimism from last night into today which is beautiful and all anyone is hoping for and caring about now you cover this team year round like you said 10 years you're around the team you're from Buffalo let's go Buffalo you're in the locker room what can you tell us about Demar Hamlin and the kind of person he is well I think by now hopefully you've seen all of the the great donations the amount of donations coming in for his amazing Chasing Billions Foundation it's great and you know Demar is kind of an unassuming guy so I'm so glad something like this is out there because he kind of does this stuff a little bit under the radar you know you got to remember he came in he was a sixth round pick and he comes into this league he has to fight for a spot where there's two all pros ahead of him right like a hide in Jordan Boyer he's not going to play a lot and he worked his tail off in a single day and did what it took to make the team and became a special team star last year for this team and then he's thrust into this spotlight to take over from Mike Ahide you know two weeks into the year after Mike Ahide gets hurt so a couple of funny antidotes here is the next game maybe it was a week after that they were playing the Pittsburgh Steelers and I remember Mike Tomlin leading up to the game Tuesday at his press conference he starts talking he says talk about the bills and his respect I love that kid you know what I'm saying he was 12 years old so I go into the locker room the next day and I see Damar and I said Damar did you see Mike Tomlin talking about you and his face lit up right I mean for him he was so proud that someone like Mike Tomlin would have this kind of reverence for him you know it was so cool because Damar he's just going about his business he's doing what he wants to do he's so humble and then what happened was it's so funny after that game I think it was that game might have been a week later they won a game and it was a live interview as the sideline reporter something live on the radio so they win the game and I'm like okay who can I interview in this game somebody I haven't talked to oh my gosh Damar Hamlin he just filled in from like a hide played a nice game so I run up to him and I got the microphone in my hand and I go Damar Damar live radio live radio and he looks at me like I have three heads and he's like no no I'm good I'm good I said Damar in nine years you'd be the only person to ever say no to a walk off interview after a win and I'll talk to you we laughed about it he had a great interview I went up to him at the after the game in the locker room I said hey I'm sorry I didn't mean to surprise you and he's like no no it's all good I wasn't expecting that but that's him right he's doing his job he's not expecting that limelight he's not used to that limelight and now I think we're shining a light on what kind of a person he is what kind of a human being he is on top of a great football player Sal I cannot thank you enough for telling those stories those are beautiful you can join us and talk about this nobody cares about the game I was just talking to a mental health expert about how can these games possibly be played she was talking to me about how injuries something she's worried about more injuries because people aren't where they need to be to optimally perform on a football field we love Sean McDermott how can they play I don't know it's a good question so just to give an update here from Buffalo Wednesday is a media day if you will Sean McDermott speaks at noon the team practices at 12.30 that's a normal Wednesday there will be no media availability today they will hold meetings and a walkthrough we are taking cues from the team and quite frankly what I said on my radio show this morning is that's totally fine whatever they want to do we'll take our cues from them they don't want to talk all week and they don't I'm quite sure that there are players that are really struggling going in the building today I'm also quite sure there's players that need to go into the building today I want to make this point too I think it's very important to hear in 2023 that we've come so long so far in this regard the Buffalo Bills under Sean McDermott and Brandon Bean have really been at the forefront of making sure that everyone in their building has so many resources available for their mental health and to have as much availability to be able to talk to anybody or resources they need in that regard and they've been on that for quite a while and they talk about it a lot and I remember having a conversation with Brandon Bean in the preseason about this and how important that is and that goes to guys who are coming back from rehab like Jardavius White with his knee or something like that like there's so much of that that goes into it so when I hear today they're having meetings and then a walk through I'm sure those meetings involve a lot of that and the Bills are very very on top of and believe in having a very strong mental health resources and availability at all times for everybody in their building we love hearing that and I was talking in the beginning of the show about how I'm really not so I looked at Monday night that was a leadership and it's all going to come from them and we know a tweet that we just saw here from Scott Patterson I don't know if you want to fly it in to my control room mental health should be talked about across Western New York today May 14th still fresh we just lost 40 people to a blizzard five kids to a house fire and how many of us witnessed what happened to Damar Hamlin check on each other today don't be afraid to reach out for help again 988 is a number you can text for free and get counseling someone to talk to it's anonymous if you feel that way so please text or call 988 anybody not just Bill's fans but anybody and our love goes to Bill's I mean it's the most loyal supportive generous action fan base that there is and you grew up in Buffalo you're part of the community up there what stood out to you about this situation and the support when it comes to Damar and his Bill's teammates yeah and also if I can point out also related I don't want to forget also in anybody to talk to me we had a racist mass shooting here at our supermarket just it's about a mile and a half from where I'm sitting talking to you right now and that was obviously very traumatic for this community and you know okay we're not New York we're not Chicago we're not LA we're Buffalo New York and we don't have all of those glitzy and glammy things that a lot of those places have what we have is the Buffalo bills and the Buffalo Sabres in each other and it's always been that way here we band together because that's our moniker for good reason when something like what happened down at the top supermarket when something what happened in just a couple of weeks ago where 40 people died people are literally freezing in their car and we're fighting bodies the next day after a blizzard we band together and help each other in any way we can and I remember back in May and that happening and the bills and the Sabres and the bandits and our sports teams they were very much a part of the life too you know look at Martin Hamlet Martin Hamlet is 24 years old he's been here two years he's already has foundations and organizations because when you come to Buffalo that's what happens here we connect with those teams they connect with us and that's the way you know we kind of live our lives here with each other not through each other and those are the sports teams that's necessarily but with each other and we're all in this together and that's why it's so important we certainly are so I cannot thank you enough I know I have a show 10 to 12 I have a great co-host name is Joe DiBiasi I took a step aside because I want to talk to you and I'll tell you you know I did a lot of radio yesterday a lot around the country national, local and it was a bit therapeutic for me you know because otherwise I'd be sitting in it I'll tell you that but I also know that a lot of people want to know what's going on in Buffalo and you know and to be available for people like you here and big fan been watching a long time by the way to be available for people like you I don't know what resource anybody I can hear as well and I hope you're taking your own advice you said it's therapeutic to you and you're talking about how Sean McDermott leadership with the Buffalo Bills are putting mental health at the forefront I hope you are as well my friend it helps that my wife is a mental health counselor so it helps there in all of these situations so yeah you know that's big in our household as well I have a nine-year-old son he was watching the game and he had confusion I came home we talk about together to the top supermarket the day after and you know we process that together so you know it's important to do everything you have to in your own way and to lean on the people that you trust and love so true what's the if I can ask you tough conversation with your nine-year-old kid how do you handle that you're talking about the situation on Monday night yeah you know he was he was at the game in tennis in Buffalo Monday night season tickets he loves the bills he wears a bill's helmet to the games he's nine years old oh he dresses up in the outfit he's got the pants on and everything he goes to the games he sits right behind the bill's bench about 15 rows up he was at the Monday night game when Dan Jackson was hurt and was taken off on an ambulance so it's not seen before and he knows he's been around sports you know for what dad does he knows this but I think he was more confused they've never seen this happen before and you know they always play I called you Kate sorry Kate and it's something they always do they always go back to playing and I think he was more confused and I had to explain the seriousness of the situation why it's so important so not a tough conversation necessarily just more kind of having him understand a little bit more Sal Capaccio we I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this and the stories about DeMar Hamlin of course which we love is he continues to fight so we appreciate you can of course hear you on buffalo bills on the sidelines maybe a Super Bowl at this point who cares so we we will continue to stay vigilant and we appreciate the information hopefully we can have you back soon anytime anytime just reach out thank you very much Joe's like absolutely not this clown's got a get back on the positive update on DeMar Hamlin sending love and peace and comfort to you


Now, Roma Wines, present. Suspense! Tonight, Actors Blood, written and told to us by Ben Hect and starring Frederick March. Suspense is presented for your enjoyment by Roma Wines. That's R-O-M-A. Roma Wines. Those excellent California wines that can add so much pleasantness to the way you live. To your happiness and entertaining guests. To your enjoyment of everyday meals. Yes, right now a glass full would be very pleasant, as Roma Wines bring you... Suspense! This is the Man in Black, here for the Roma Wine Company of Fresno, California, to raise the curtain on a presentation unique in these weekly half-hours of suspense. Tonight from Hollywood, Roma Wines bring you a star of the first magnitude, Mr. Frederick March. And in person, one of America's foremost tellers of tales, Mr. Ben Hect of Broadway and Hollywood, who will appear as actor and narrator in a suspense play dealing with the mysterious death and the twisted passions and loyalties of the world behind the footlights. And so, with Actors Blood and with the performance of Frederick March, supported by Ben Hect, from whom we will hear the narrative in the author's own words, we again hope to keep you in suspense. Do you remember Maurice Tillio? Probably not. Only students of the theatre or people old enough to have applauded the heyday of Mrs. Leslie Carter and John Drew, and the theatrical diodes of the Divine Sarah would be likely to remember. During the years I knew him, I saw him in harness but three times. Once in a revival, once at a benefit, and the third time was the occasion of the anecdote I've set out to relate. By that time, his only claim to fame was the fact that he was the father of Marsha Tillio. On a summer night in 1927, Marsha made a final exit worthy of the Tillio tradition. For weeks after it happened, old Tillio went around like the ancient mariner, holding with his baleful eye in his mournful song, whoever crossed upon his path. But after a while, he too seemed to drop out of sight in the wake of his glamorous daughter, and like her was forgotten. Then late one night, as I was getting ready for bed, the bells in my apartment rang. Ben, I come with a message from the dead. Indeed. Well, come on in and tell me about it. Ben, do you believe in ghosts? I've got nothing against them. I have just come from a miserable modern dress caricature of that greatest of the Bard's plays, Macbeth. You will scarcely credit what these upstarts have done to Shakespeare's masterpiece. They haven't ordered the text, have they? You recall the fourth scene of the third act. Oh, yes, the scene in which Banquo's ghost appeared. Just so. In the folio edition of the play, the stage directions clearly read, the ghost of Banquo enters and sits in Macbeth's place. In the foul production which I have just witnessed, the ghost does no such thing. It is an empty chair to which Macbeth shrieks his guilty line. Thou canst not say I did it. Never shake thy gory locks at me. An invisible ghost, eh? That's not so illogical. But what drama is there in it? How can we feel Macbeth's terror if it's an empty stool at which he shouts? I've ought to quit my sight. Let the earth hide thee. Thy bones are merrillous. Thy blood is cold. Thou hast no speculation in those eyes which thou dost glare with. The way you read those lines, sir, I have no trouble seeing this ghost. Thank you. Now listen. I am going to produce that scene in modern dress.   Look, Maurice, I'm very fond of you, but I...  Like Hamlet, I am but mad north-northwest. The empty place at the table will be purely symbolic, I assure you. And no apparitions will appear, not to you and me, at any rate. I cannot guarantee what my daughter's murderer will see there. Marsha's murderer will be there? He will all be there. All who loved her, all who hated her. And woe to the hand that shed this costly blood. But if you know who the murderer is, why don't you tell the police? Ah, police! My daughter, sir, would not have wanted so crude and sordid an epilogue to her life story. Like her father before her and my parents before me, she had actors' blood in her veins. She shall be avenged, my friend, but it would be no affair of handcuffs and policemen. I'll not go whining on Marsha's behalf among the cigar butts and cuspidors in some precinct station. Oh, no. Her murderer shall be enmasked at a mighty banquet. On Friday next, at 8.30, curtain time, my friend. I'll see you there. Yes, yes, I'll be there. With Ben Hecht in person as the narrator of his own story, and with Frederick March's star, you have heard the prologue to Actors' Blood, Tonight's Tale of Suspense. And now, in this brief intermission, let us picture a scene beneath a radiant Caribbean moon at the fashionable Hotel Nacional de Cuba in Havana. An American dinner guest has just raised his glass in a toast to Havana, its traditions, its beauty, the superb dinner, and wine. His Cuban host replies, true, the traditions, the scenery, and the food you enjoy, they are Cuban. But the wine of which you speak so highly, that is of your country. It is the famed Roma wine made in your own California. Yes, it may surprise you that California produces Roma wines of such uniformly superb quality that they are imported by many foreign countries. But millions of Americans do know and enjoy the excellence of Roma wines daily with meals and when entertaining. These millions have made Roma America's largest selling wines. They know too that Roma wines are amazingly inexpensive. Only pennies a glass for wines of such distinguished character. That's because here in America you pay no high import duty, no expensive shipping charges for Roma, wines that combine age old wine making skill with modern testing and quality control. So ask for R-O-M-A, Roma wines made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. And now it is with pleasure that we bring back to our sound stage Mr. Ben Hect, narrator and author of Actors Blood starring Frederick March, tonight's tale of suspense. It rained on that Friday night, thunder rolled in the sky and the streets were full of that picnic-like confusion which storm brings to the city. Waiting under the hotel awning for a taxi, I turned over in my mind this strange invitation that had brought me out into this wild and stormy night. I was rather thrilled at the prospect of old Tilly U's dinner for his intention was plain to assemble a company of suspects in the murder of his daughter, Marcia and he was obviously going to climax the evening by some formal accusation of guilt. I knew pretty well who the suspects were and I suppose I was one of them. Alfred O'Shea would be there of course. Alfred O'Shea. The man who had written Marcia Tilly U's first successful play and their last. Broadway had its own private joke about the title of the last. It was called Forgotten Lady. It was after the final curtain of the last performance of Forgotten Lady that Alfred O'Shea chose to tell her. Marcia told the story of the time as a joke on herself. Hello Marcia. Oh, why darling, you waited for me in my dressing room. Like old times I'm touched, really touched.  You know why I'm here. I do. All right, I'll say it again. I'll say it for the last time. I want a divorce. I want to marry Rina Kratznoff. I want to marry Rina Kratznoff. Oh, it's such a bad line and from such a great playwright. No, dear Alfred, not for her. It would be too belittling as successor. Can't you see darling after all we've been to each other? It's why it's like Pygmalion wanting to trade in his beautiful galateer for a wooden Indian. And it's no dice, huh? No dice, Alfred. No divorce. Not as long as I live. Now be a darling and help me out of this dress. Okay Marcia, you've just made your own bargain. You can come out from behind that screen now, father. How did you know I was there? Your asthma, darling. I'm glad you're here.  I warned you against marrying that jack and apes of a playwright, Marcia. Oh, father, you're saying I told you so. What I really wanted was to weep on your shoulder. Ouch! I'm sorry, sorry. Look here, Marcia, what are you going to do about this career? Now darling, please don't go into that old routine about my being the last royal family of the American theater. I'm nothing but a combination of your name and a playwright who specializes in shallow, brittle female leads that enable me to get applause by simply acting myself. Marcia, Marcia, won't allow you to speak this way about yourself. You're a great artist. You've taken your place in the great tradition of the stage beside the immortal figures of Rachelle, Sidon's, Bernhardt, and Majesta. Marcia, let O'Shay go. He was never worthy of you. Play Juliet next season. Show them you don't need a fashionable playwright and tailor-made parts to succeed. Show them you have actors' blood. Actors' blood, actors' blood! I'm sick of hearing about it. Just because you and mother thought it was cute to stick me out there behind the footlights at the age of five because you never had any real life. You didn't see any reason why your daughter should have. I'm supposed to have actors' blood. All right, all right, all right. I'm only thinking of you, Marcia. Only of you. But that O'Shay is a hot-headed Irishman. He came very near to threatening your life when you refused to do as he asked. Good. I wish he would kill me.  Yes, O'Shay was a suspect. He would be at Old Tillyew's dinner. He would be seated across the table from the empty chair. And would he see a bank-closed ghost of Marcia Tillyew? But O'Shay would be in a goodly company of suspects. Fritz von Klauber would be there, for sure. Fritz von Klauber. Not a man I should have liked to have as an enemy of that. Abnormally sensitive to insult, von Klauber was possessed also of an impenetrable Prussian stupidity. His first American production was a play called Jubilee for Spring. And Marcia Tillyew starred in it. It was the most sensational flop for the Broadway season. After the first night performance in the 21 Club, Marcia held her own private autopsy on von Klauber's dead turkey. You see, darlings, Mr. von Klauber, my esteemed producer, loves his turkey farm so much, he sometimes forgets he's on Broadway. Terrific, Marcia. How about that for von Klauber? Sure, Walter. Anything at all. It's all yours. Von Klauber. He's over there at the next table. He's heard every word. Good. Let him hear. He's going to hear for me in the morning anyway when I start looking for a new producer.  Go ahead. Drag me in public. I could kill you for this. Do you hear me?  Oh, you could, darling. Well, if my beloved husband doesn't do me in who perhaps I'll ask you to oblige, I may yet be spared the nuisance of doing the job myself. Marcia, I forbid you to talk like this. Sorry, Father. Must be the actor's blood cropping up again. Yes, von Klauber would surely be present to till you's ghostly dinner. As I got into the taxi and gave the driver till you's address, my mind was still turning upon the terrible question I was confident would be answered tonight. Who killed Marcia till you? Third on my list of suspects was a character named Maury Stein. Maury Stein. A one-time racing tout and small-time gangster. Maury turned his brilliance of slightly frightening talent to flesh peddling. That is to say, he was a theatrical agent. Marcia did two shows under his management. Both of them flops. It wasn't her fault. There was no belittlement of the name till you. It was still an electric sign but growing ghostly, slipping still aglow into the side streets of fame. Maury Stein was Marcia till you's last substitute for love. Will you stop staring at that door? Let's get out of here. Oh, relax. This is a charming room. I like it here. Look, check, I said let's get out of here. Understand? Perfectly. I understand that Mrs. Maury Stein may come walking in that door. Perhaps she'll put two and two together about us. That'd make you sad, wouldn't it? Because you've signed over all your unscrupulously earned money to your good wife. Oh, just in case questions should be asked, you know. And if she gets any ideas, she may cut you off without a dime. And then we're...  You know, I've half a mind... Did you hear what I said?  You ever so much as to pick up your coat, we're gone.  Slimy little word. Sister, nobody talks to Maury Stein like that and gets away with it, see? Nobody. There was to be one more opening night in Marsha Tilleyu's career. And ironically enough, the three men she had caused to fear most of all her enemies were doing the honors. O'Shea had written it, Van Klauber was the producer, and Maury Stein had put up the money. I arrived backstage at the Broadhurst to take 20 to find the three of them in hysterics. Ten minutes to curtain time and no Marsha. I found Old Tilleyu sitting in her dressing room, nursing a sprained ankle, and very upset. Ben, I'm worried. For the first time, I'm really worried about Marsha. What's the matter? I don't know. We've been calling her hotels since six o'clock. She refuses to answer the phone. Ben, go over there. You're the only one she'll listen to. No Tilleyu has ever missed a performance in Marsha of all people must not be the first.  Tearing at her heart with her fangs until she's afraid to go on. Go, Ben. Try to reason with her. Okay, Pop. I'll do my best to bring her back. I trotted the three blocks to Marsha's hotel. The clerk of the desk met me with a dead pan. Not, Mr. Hack. Mr. Tilleyu hasn't come down yet. No key in her box. I took the elevator up. I turned left and walked down the corridor and knocked down the door. No answer. Tried the knob. Door opened, and then it all added up. Yes, it added up to a gaudy room and shambles, mirrors smashed, perfume bottles shattered. The portrait of Marsha is purette, cut to ribbons. And finally it added up to Marsha herself. Cold and white and terribly beautiful, lying there on the bed with three round bullet holes and a neat triangle just over the heart. There was no mistaking it. Marsha Tilleyu was dead, murdered. That was the sum total of the addition I was doing in my head as I rode in a taxi the 20 blocks from my hotel to Old Tilleyu's house on West 84th Street. Maybe I added it up wrong, but I felt sure I hadn't. I was even more certain when I saw Old Tilleyu standing there at the head of the table to greet the guests he had assembled on the promise of revealing the identity of Marsha's murder. Promptly at 8.30 he made his entrance. He had brought a stranger into the room with him. Thank you, thank you all of you for waiting so patiently. I trust you found your mutual company not too tiresome. I should like to introduce my guest of honor. May I present Mr. Carl Schuttler of the district attorney's office. Now if you will all be seated, the place cards are plainly marked. Please, please do not disarrange them. I see one short. And who may I ask, is that empty place for? Bankel's ghost. That is my dear Mr. Van Klauber. He's for a beloved guest known to all of you. Beloved guest, huh? Let's see now. Well, well, hey, listen to this. This seat has indeed been reserved for one known to all of us. Who is it?    Marsha was never, she was too sensible to play ghosts. I, I am an old actor. With the audience seated and the curtain up, I find it hard to wait. Art is long, but time is fleeting, and there is one who bids me speak. Love, hear thou. How desolate the heart is ever calling, ever unanswered, and the dark ring falling then as now. You are wondering if I really believe my daughter Marsha is present in this galaxy of her friend. It may be the wandering wits of an old man, but I see her sitting there, tragic and beautiful, about her the sound of rain and of sweet bells jangling out of tune. Forgive me. You, you have not come here tonight to hear a doting father spread his miseries before you, but for a sterner business, which from your courtesy or attentiveness I feel sure you have guessed. Mr. Schutler asked me to tell him this matter privately, but I refused.  Who killed my daughter? Who took her life? There's the question. I have the answer. Yes, Mr. Schutler, the murderer is here. He sits here among us now, at my table. Shall I lock the door now, Mr. Tilley? Yes, yes, lock the door. Lock it tight. Leave no chance for escape. It's too late now. No power in heaven or earth can save him. All right, Mr. Tilley, the door's locked. My friends, is this not like a plane? Your face is waiting for the name. The name of Iscariot, the Judas. That's it, that's it. Clear your throat. Look about you. Who knows? The villain may be right beside you. And who knows but that you may be his next victim. I keep my promise, Mr. Schutler. I have the proof, all of them, enough to send the murderer from this table to the gallows. The one who killed Marsha is looking at me now. Ah, the blood on his hands. The terror in his eyes. I'll tell you his name. His name is... He's killing me. Not that. Not that. A knife. A knife. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. He's killing me. He's killing... He's... A dagger handled, protruded from old Tilley's crimson shirt front. His eyes were closed. We carried him into the next room and waited outside while the doctor worked over him. I'm Ben Heck, doctor. Will you come in, please? He's asking for you. The knife pierced the heart. He hasn't much longer. Ben... Ben, is that you, Ben? Yes, it's me. Who did it? Lean over so I can see your face. Satisfied? Let me fall out of my pocket. What is that? I must have stuck it in the pocket of this suit the last time I wore it. What's in that letter, Ben? I don't know. I haven't even opened it. That's Marshall's handwriting. A letter from the dead. Open it, Ben. Read it to me. You mustn't excite yourself. When was that letter mailed? It's postmarked the 10th. Must have been the day before... Read the letter, Ben. All right. What does it say, Ben? Read it. Well, it says... Ben, this is to remind you of the opening at the Broadhurst tonight. I hope you will be there, because I sincerely believe that this is one of the greatest roles I have ever played, and I'm so anxious to make good in it because of Father's faith in me. Really? She'd have been proud of your performance in there this evening, too, Pop. You were great. Thank you, Ben. Thank you. Doctor! Doctor! Well, that's that. He was quite an actor in his day, wasn't he? Yes. Quite an actor. How's he doing? What did he say? He said anything? He's dead. I've got a letter here that will explain everything. It's a pity I didn't find it sooner. I haven't had the genocide on since the night of Marshall's opening. It fell out of my pocket when I leaned over the bed in there. It was written by Marsha Tilleyou. Today she died.  I'd stay a while longer, but death seems easier and simpler than life. What are a few pills, more or less, to one who has swallowed so much? Take care of Father. He liked you the best for the last time, Marsha. Suicide. It's a suicide note. But what about the bullet? Can't you guess? The old man worshipped her. She was his star.  Only failures do that. So he fired three bullets into her dead body, slashed the painting, and wrecked the place to make it look like a crime of passion. He must have been mad as a hater. No, he was sane. I think he really saw her as murdered by all of us. Her so-called friends who had let her down when she needed the most. Do you realize that that old barnstormer was playing his death scene from the moment he came into this room tonight? He'd rehearsed it in his bedroom for days, sharpening away at Macbeth's old toadstabber. He had his lines down pat. He staged his elaborate scene this evening and killed himself. In such a way that we'd all be raked over the coals, not only for Marsha's murder but for his own as well. Well, it was a lovely piece of old-fashioned miming but as fruitless a drama as I ever had the misfortune to witness. You're right, O'Shea.  We could have helped him a lot with the construction, but it was a great glass night. And so closes Actors Blood, written and narrated by Ben Hect and starring Frederick March. Tonight's study in Suspense. Suspense is produced and directed by William Spear. Have you discovered, as thousands have, how much Roma wines add to the enjoyment of your meals? How their superb flavor makes special occasion feasts out of everyday meals? Well, find out for yourself. Start off the meal with that delightful appetizer, Roma California Sherry. Then place on the table a well-chilled bottle of Roma California Table Wine, delicate sautern, hearty burgundy, or tart, tasty claret. You'll be amazed at the tremendous difference Roma wine makes in the enjoyment of your foods. Don't overlook this easy and expensive way to add thrilling extra enjoyment of everyday living. Remember, Roma wines cost only pennies a glass. Take a tip from the millions who enjoy Roma wines at meals when entertaining. Ask for R-O-M-A. Roma wines, America's largest selling wines, made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. Next Thursday, same time, you will hear Mr. Brian Donlevy, a star of suspense. Presented by Roma Wines, R-O-M-A, made in California for enjoyment throughout the world. This is CBS, the Columbia Broadcasting System.


Google wants to hack our election. Google could well elect the next president. They have a monopoly on information on what you know and what I know. Fight against this threat to our democracy. As the 2020 presidential election heats up, alarmism over big tech's influence on voters is once again reaching a fever pitch. Democrats fear the impact of so-called fake news and Russian bots, while Republicans complain of supposed anti-conservative bias and censorship on platforms like Google, Twitter, and Facebook. They all agree on one thing. The federal government needs more power over online speech. We will hold social media platforms accountable. Russia was running all those bots about me. They treat conservatives and Republicans very unfairly. It's not right. It's not fair. It may not be legal. Republicans have put a spotlight on the claims of one noted researcher and self-proclaimed proud Clinton supporter to bolster their allegations of liberal activism by tech companies. Psychologist Robert Epstein. Dr. Robert Epstein, a Harvard-trained psychologist. Dr. Epstein, I found your testimony incredibly powerful and incredibly concerning. Dr. Robert Epstein produced a series of studies that he claims show that search engines and social media companies manipulate their users to help Democrats. A former editor-in-chief of Psychology Today, Epstein has called Google's search engine the most powerful mind control device ever devised. In 2016, Google's search algorithm likely impacted undecided voters in a way that shifted at least 2.6 million votes to Hillary Clinton, whom I supported. If any headline comes out of this hearing, that should be it. While Google has called his work nothing more than a poorly constructed conspiracy theory, Donald Trump cited Epstein's research to explain why he lost the popular vote by nearly 3 million votes, prompting Hillary Clinton to call the work debunked. Last year, Epstein was invited to testify before Congress by Texas Senator Ted Cruz to warn of the existential threat that big tech poses to democracy. Democracy, as originally conceived, cannot survive big tech as currently empowered. In 2020, you can bet that all of these companies are going to go all out. They will have the power to shift 15 million votes. He's been sounding the alarm about what he alleges could be even more pervasive interference in favor of Democrats in the current election. You have hard evidence that Google is sensory and you can back that up. Oh, absolutely. So I explained this. I told this to Congress. The study that I referred to was irrefutable and no one has been able to disprove him. But a careful review of Epstein's work reveals that though he has conducted scientifically sound experiments, his findings don't fully support the claims that he's been making about the influence of tech giants on real-world elections. Election by election, I can actually calculate how many votes these companies can shift. A big part of that is what you call the search engine manipulation effect or SIEM. So can you just briefly talk about what that is and how you arrived at your conclusions? 50% of all clicks go to the top two search items. 95% of all clicks go on that first page of search results. So I asked a simple question, which is, if people trust those high-ranking search results that much, could I use them in an experiment to shift people's opinions about candidates perhaps, maybe even shift how they would vote? I predicted I could probably shift people one way or the other by 2% or 3%. That was my guess. The first experiment I ran, I got a shift of 48%, which I didn't believe. I redid the experiment with a new group. I got a shift of 63%, which is enormous. It's one of the largest behavioral effects I think ever discovered. In Epstein's initial lab-based and online experiments, participants spent up to 15 minutes researching details on a foreign election they knew nothing about. They used a fake search engine similar to Google that reordered results to favor a particular candidate. Then Epstein asked them how much their opinions of the candidate had shifted. He called the effect he was measuring the search engine manipulation effect, or SEEM. Bias search results can easily produce shifts in the opinions and voting preferences of undecided voters by up to 80% in some demographic groups. I think when a lot of people hear things like you can shift 80% of people to a different candidate, that seems on its face kind of ridiculous, right? So you observe this in the laboratory and then you're saying that we'll see that same shift in the real world. And what gives you confidence that that's the case? I want to be very, very clear on one issue here. I'm my biggest skeptic. So when I get a huge number in an experiment showing a lot of people's opinions just shifted, believe me, I'm very, very, very skeptical. That's why I repeat experiments over and over and over again. I do them in different ways. They are unbelievable numbers, but they're real. That's the problem. What I'm asking about is what applicability that really has to a real world election in which you have millions of other variables that you're not measuring, that could be confounding it, and you have people that are bombarded by all sorts of news sources that don't just rely on search ranking to decide their political preferences. In one of those experiments in India, those were actually real voters, right in the middle of the voting period because voting goes on for three weeks in India. These are people being bombarded, as you said, bombarded by all kinds of sources of influence, but we got an enormous shift with these real voters. We had, in some demographic groups, shifts of 60% or more. That's a very significant result as far as I'm concerned in how easy it is to change what people say, how it changes whether or not they vote. I think that's a totally different question. I asked Aaron Brown, a statistician and former chief risk manager at the hedge fund AQR Capital Management to take a look at Epstein's research. He says that in experiments of this sort, it's not hard to manipulate what participants say and that Epstein is over extrapolating from his results. When Epstein ran his online experiment in India in 2014 on real voters, he exposed them to biased search engine results for an average of five minutes and then asked them how much their opinions had shifted. Whether that translates to actual changes in the vote people ultimately cast, I think there's zero evidence for that. Brown says that participants in this type of behavioral research often answer in the way they think the experimenter wants them to and even if their opinions really do change, by the time they show up at an actual polling site, it's likely that all sorts of other factors have changed their opinions yet again. The people whose votes you're going to shift with something as trivial as five minutes on a biased search engine are going to be the people whose votes are easiest to shift. They're probably the people who aren't voting for one thing. So these people are going to shift back and forth a hundred times before election day if they ever get to the polls at all. And so when he says that he got 60% shifts among some demographics in that study, do you think that that's a meaningful result that we can sort of map on to real elections? Not at all. We can't assume that that's the only thing changing people's votes. I mean, that's an absurd assumption. Their algorithm all by itself, it is already determining the outcomes of close elections around the world all by itself. Epstein has used the findings from his search engine manipulation effect studies to make bold claims about real election results. For example, he asserts that as of 2015, bias in Google search alone has been changing upwards of 25% of the outcomes of national elections worldwide. Can you just explain how you arrived at those numbers from the experiments that you just talked about? That's actually pretty simple. We simply looked at the margins by which national elections around the world were being won. And it turns out in national elections especially, the wind margin is often extremely, extremely small. And then we looked at, again, the SEEM research which tells us what proportion of undecided voters can be shifted in any given election and just kind of put the two together. And that's where we came up with this estimate of upwards of 25% of the national elections in the world. As of 2015, we're being decided by a Google search engine. The logic he just described is just wrong. There's lots of other things that influence people's votes. How many people changed their vote because of what their spouse thinks, what their friend thinks? An ad they saw, a book they read, a movie they saw, an experience they had. What you would have to show to show that they were actually influencing elections is you need a controlled experiment. You need actually to see how many actual votes shifted, not how many people reported a shift in opinion. As evidence that tech companies can affect voting behavior, Epstein points to a study run on 61 million Facebook users on election day in 2010 that tested the impact of get-out-the-vote messages. They actually measured how many more people got off their sofas and went and voted. So they sent it to 60 million people that caused an additional 340,000 more people to go vote. But Brown says this fits Epstein's pattern of emphasizing seemingly large numbers without giving their proper context. The Facebook study found that only one out of five people who said they voted after seeing the get-out-the-vote message actually did and the most effective message tested increased real voting by just 0.4%. It makes Epstein's higher estimates of his effect seem implausible. So of whatever percentage, you know, 15% or something who said they changed their mind in this experiment, maybe only 3% of them voted and maybe, you know, only 0.3% of them actually changed their vote on the basis of this. We just have no idea. But it's going to be much smaller. It's going to be much smaller than the effect you observed. That's a very far cry from the numbers that you're talking about, right? So why do you think that when we look at this 60 million person study, that's happening? Is it the actual turn out-to-vote that's so much different? Or what's your take on that? Actually, what that means is that if on Election Day in 2016, Mark Zuckerberg had decided to send out a go-vote reminder just to Democrats, number one, no one would have known and that would have given two Democrats that day at least 450,000 additional votes. If you can shift 15 million votes, you can, I mean, you can create a 20% win margin. In response to Brown's criticisms, Epstein reiterated in an email to Reason that his estimate that tech companies could shift 15 million votes this year is quote, conservative based on what I know we can do in our experiments. Though his studies measured shifts in opinion and not voting behavior directly, Epstein says that research on polling suggests that people's stated intentions are excellent predictors of their votes. Because Facebook had a way of at least estimating who actually voted, it's much more stronger result is when we can have a lot more phases. It's not a theoretical thing based on a sort of chain of logic. After his Seam experiments, Epstein had to answer one more critical question before he could arrive at the number of real votes Google was changing. Is the company actually biasing the information it shows to users? The Google whistleblower has come out of the shadows. Epstein says the answer is yes, pointing to leaked documents published by the conservative activist group Project Veritas and interviews with ex-employees that alleged Google sometimes does intervene to re-rank search results or remove content it deems objectionable. We're pushing down the fake news. We're demoting it and we are increasing the authoritative news and promoting it. I felt that our entire election system was going to be compromised forever. These companies are absolutely determined to control the outcome of the upcoming election. The term re-ranking is used in the documents. They use Blacklist to either remove content or demote it. There's a lot of material on what they call within Google, algorithmic fairness. Algorithmic fairness. So simple example would be most CEOs in the U.S. are men, back white men. Now if you type CEO into Google and you're looking at images, you're going to get a mix. You're going to get some more minorities, some more women thrown in. Whether that's representative or not, you see they have ways of balancing from their perspective, balancing content any way they want to balance it just like I do in my experiments. Tech platforms have often been inconsistent in explaining how they apply their community guidelines to remove or limit certain content. But experts in online search argue the technology is necessarily complex and always evolving and several studies have concluded that there's no clear evidence Google biases results for political purposes. Company executives also deny ever doing so. A Dr. Epstein study we have investigated. We don't agree with the methodology. Epstein needed proof they were doing just that. So in 2016, he ran a study in which he secretly monitored the search results of 95 field agents in 24 states after they typed neutral terms such as Hillary's health plan into Google, Bing and Yahoo. We had the searches so we could see whether they were biased in any way. We found a pro Hillary Clinton bias and I was a very strong Hillary Clinton supporter in all 10 search positions on the first page of Google search results but not on Bing or Yahoo. That's extremely important. The fact that we're seeing that bias on Google but not the other search engines that says that again for whatever reason their algorithms are actually favoring Hillary Clinton. After measuring the bias, Epstein combined these results with the shifts in opinion he was able to generate in his earlier seem research to calculate how many votes Google had supposedly shifted in real national elections. If there is any kind of favoritism in search results we know from the seem research without any doubt that that will in a big election shift millions of votes. In the weeks leading up to the 2018 election bias in Google search results may have shifted upwards of 78.2 million votes spread across many races. What we're seeing here is actual rigging. I mean, this is not paranoia. This is fact. This is rock solid fact. But Epstein wasn't able to determine the source of the bias in his field agent's search results. And his monitoring work has been criticized by other social scientists in part for using a small number of participants who are unlikely to be representative of the U.S. electorate. It's shifting the people who are vulnerable who are undecided and the shifts are simply enormous. And though his claims focus on undecided voters his data on the bias they're exposed to is especially limited of his 95 field agents in 2016 only 21 identified themselves as undecided and he didn't determine the political preferences of others. Isn't that a confounding variable if you don't know what the political preferences of people are? Because like you're saying one of the big differences between your study and what Google actually does is that Google has basically a dossier on every person that has all of these behaviors and they customize search results and things to the individual. So isn't it possible that the people in your group they were seeing bias search based on their own pre-existing political preferences? We would have ways of detecting that for example if that if that were true then we'd expect to see you know a pro-democrat results in blue states and pro-republican results in red states. If we're seeing pro-democrat results in both blue and red states but so you had 95 people right so you couldn't have had more than like two or three people right in any given state? Again I need to emphasize that these systems I've set up so far are proof of concept projects. In 2020 I think there's more at stake here and I think that we want to we want to have numbers that aren't just statistically valid. We want to have numbers that are psychologically valid and that means having a much, much larger number of field agents. What we need are data literally millions of pieces of data coming in every day from a very diverse group of people whose demographics we know. Why are you comfortable giving these number estimates now? Why not just say this is a significant effect? We don't know what effect it will have in the real world. We think it'll shift it this way and we're going to wait to see why do you give these numbers where you're extrapolating directly from your data to the real world? I'm very careful when I make extrapolations I'm very careful to word things in a way that I think has integrity. So what I said in 2016 was that if the level of bias that we found in the sample we collected if that level of bias had been present nationwide that would have shifted somewhere between 2.6 and 10.4 million votes to Hillary Clinton. And you know, I stand by that. I've never said I know that level of bias was present nationwide. I've never said that. You testified before this committee that Google's manipulation of votes gave at least 2.6 million additional votes to Hillary Clinton in the year 2016. Is that correct? I must correct you. The 2.6 million is a rock bottom minimum. The range is between 2.6 and 10.4 million depending on how aggressively they used the techniques that I've been studying now for six and a half years. Again, I'm very careful in the way I word things because I'm very, very skeptical about my own work. I think that's why my work is pretty solid. His results are pretty solid and they're very scientific. Yeah, he overstates them but mostly what he does is present them artfully. Aaron Brown says the issue is not Epstein's experimental design but the fact that he continues to repeat numbers that would only be accurate if the effects he's measured were the sole factors influencing voters. And in the context of all the things that influence votes he has not convinced me that this is a significant one. But Epstein writes that Brown has no idea how powerful new forms of influence can be especially influence that people can't see. Seem is an especially dangerous form of influence because it is in effect subliminal. The political campaigns I mean they're they're doing all kinds of shenanigans on these platforms and they're buying ads and you know so doesn't that make a difference? And the answer is no, that makes no difference. All of that is competitive which is healthy. That's a good thing. But if the platform itself favors one candidate or party you cannot counteract that by any means. Unlike other forms of attempted online voter manipulation like political ads, biased news stories and even Russian troll farms Epstein argues that tech companies influence is more insidious since users assume computer generated content is neutral and they can be manipulated repeatedly over long periods of time without knowing it. Google can take a 50-50 split among undecided voters and change it into a 90-10 split with no one knowing that they have been manipulated. I mean my jaw is open. But Brown says the world is full of implicit messaging and unlike in Epstein's research studies have shown directly that other types of unconscious influence can have a large effect on real voting behavior. You know the top person on the ballot gets somewhere between 1 and 10% more votes and they would get if you reverse the ballot or there's plenty of subliminal and you know implicit message that people get all the time but you don't need an international conspiracy or a secret group of technocrats in Silicon Valley to influence elections. If anyone draws news out of this hearing I would encourage you to review very carefully Dr. Epstein's testimony. Epstein's work is once again gaining traction in this election cycle as politicians seek greater control over activity online. We as a country cannot tolerate political censorship blacklisting and rigged search results. My executive order calls for new regulations under section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. President Trump recently signed an executive order targeting social media and tasked the FCC with investigating tech platforms for violations of section 230 otherwise known as the Internet's First Amendment. I think this hearing has underscored the need for Congress to revisit that. Nobody wants to see a federal speech police deciding what is and isn't permissible. The goal here, Kim, is not to get less speech. The goal is to get more speech. Republicans in Congress have proposed legislation that would largely eliminate the speech protections in section 230 allowing the government to punish tech companies if officials were to deem a user's post unacceptable and the Department of Justice is reportedly planning to file a new antitrust case against Google before the election. And the step on the line beyond that is a Teddy Roosevelt step. And it's not just Republicans agitating for control over online speech. They behave like monopolists. They need to be broken apart. Senate Democrats joined them in a bipartisan effort to subpoena tech CEOs in advance of the election and numerous prominent Democrats including Joe Biden and Kamala Harris have promised further crackdowns on Internet platforms for the content users post. Section 230 should be revoked immediately. Should be revoked. Number one for Zuckerberg and other platforms. That's a pretty foundational loves of the modern that's right. Internet. Exactly right. And it should be revoked. It should be revoked. You've also said that there needs to be strict regulation of companies like Google. What's your case for that? Yes. I used to call for strict regulation. I've stopped doing that because with Google there is actually a simple solution to the threats that that particular company poses and that is to make their index which is the database they use to generate search results to make the index into a public commons. So Google's dominance would disappear. They could still make lots of money. You know, big customers would have to pay maybe to access their index. But the point is that's a simple solution. That's very, very light touch regulation. You know, there are things we can do. The EU has been extremely aggressive. If the federal government does ever step in to regulate, you're not going to like it. Embattled Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg is calling for stricter regulation of the web, including his own company. The irony is that some big tech CEOs actually welcome regulation because they already have teams of attorneys and lobbyists at their disposal. But new legal requirements are costly barriers to entry for upstart competitors. I'm a big believer in the free market but we have to admit when the free market's not working and it hasn't worked here. And I think it's inevitable that there will be some level of regulation. So would you work with us in terms of what regulations you think are necessary in your industry? Absolutely. Okay. Would you submit to us some proposed regulations? Yes. We should be setting standards not unlike the Europeans are doing it relative to privacy. A study done one year after the EU passed sweeping regulations in 2018 in the name of protecting privacy found that Google and Facebook had in fact gained market share. It's a well-thought-out crafted piece of legislation. And then yes. You think the Europeans have it right? I think that they get things right. Recently we had Mark Zuckerberg testifying before Congress begging them to regulate him and the Google CEO doing the same exact thing which is what always happens with these large companies they can afford the compliance costs and it limits their upstart competition. So you know why are you confident that these regulations would not do what they've done with other telecommunications companies? Well I'm very much afraid that the regulatory approach will not work at all.  In fact they'll really just enrich the major stockholders. But you know there's a much larger issue here which is how could law and regulation possibly keep up with technology? That's impossible. Technology moves so rapidly that I just don't think laws and regulations are going to be able to protect people. So how do you protect people long term moving forward and the answer is monitoring systems because monitoring systems are tech. Tech can keep up with tech. I'm raising funds now to build a much more comprehensive system in 2020 one that will allow us to catch big tech in the act. This is going to cost more than 50 million dollars. Yeah. Epstein is convinced that the influence he's measuring is just the tip of the iceberg since tech companies have vast troves of user-specific data to mine and can use many other so-called ephemeral effects through search and video suggestions answer boxes news feeds and more to target and manipulate voters in the real world on an ongoing basis. You know I haven't tried this but what happens if we hit people with five effects at the same time heading into the 2020 vote Epstein says his only interest is in free and fair elections but his alarmist predictions have aided politicians opportunistic efforts to get Americans to hand them more power over the internet and to control the free exchange of ideas online. Any of our congress people could look at these numbers they would be stunned and they would take action. I guarantee it. Well I hope that video of this conversation goes everywhere on Facebook and Google. Despite the limitations of his research in measuring the power of tech companies to influence election outcomes or whether they're actually trying to do so Epstein continues to speculate on the number of votes they're shifting confident that his claims haven't gone nearly far enough. A lot of the social chaos that we see that's all around us is actually driven by the big tech companies. You know out of chaos comes order right. It's going to be their order that's coming. I think the problem is much bigger than I've been saying it is and I've been saying it's a big problem but I think it's actually much bigger. So what that tells me is that the numbers I've been getting over the years which are high their big numbers are all too small.