Hey, hey, Virgo. This is Kelly from House of Virgo. Welcome to my channel and welcome back everyone. Alright you guys, let's get started with your reading. If you want to get a personal reading from me, there's a link in the description box below this video. Just click that link that will take you to my booking site. And please remember, keep in mind, this is a general love reading. Some of the messages may or may not resonate, but I upload every day. So maybe something will resonate for you when you listen. Alright Virgo, let's take a look and see what are Virgo's love messages. Virgo sun, moon, rising, or Venus. Virgo sun, moon, rising, or Venus. Hello everyone. Hope you're doing well. Alright, let's take a look. Okay Virgo, there you are. Look, showing up in your reading right away. Queen of Pentacles, or you are connecting with another earth sign, Taurus Virgo Capricorn. The Wheel of Fortune, Page of Pentacles. Alright, we've got the Nine of Wands. Oh look, the full back again. Aquarian energy. And of course the devil. Always the devil. Capricorn energy, the tower, Scorpio. Let's take a look. Oh, the Hierophant, Taurus, and King of Cups. Okay, bottom of the deck. Got the Page of Wands. So definitely a message coming in for you. And I feel like yesterday some of you had a phone call perhaps coming in for you. But this is someone who's very smitten with you or has a little thing for you or a crush.  This person, I feel like whatever they were going through, whatever struggles they've been dealing with, like they're coming to the end of that. Some type of, something that they were connected, having to handle. Right, a heavy load. It feels like there was a heavy load on this person's shoulders. Something that they were, maybe they've been working a lot. Could be physical labor. Somebody could be with this person. Physical labor. They've dropped all these wands. They have one left here. And it feels like this is a very passionate card, if you know what I mean. Coming home from a long, hard day of work, so to speak. And then wanting to have a little fun time with you. There could be travel. There might be communication about travel from somebody here. The world is like, this is ended here. Whatever they were going through, whatever they were doing, whatever the struggle, the burden they were carrying, it's come to an end and now ready to start this a new cycle up with you. Okay, or just be free to, it feels like, you know, have a new chapter. This person kind of feels like walking away from something. They're walking away from a person. Something also, responsibilities with a child. Maybe had to take them to college or, you know, something to do with a child. Okay, let's take a look and see. You're definitely getting a message, so Virgo. I know some of you may be receiving a phone call and others. Pages are usually something written, so it could be a text message. If somebody reaching out to you and saying something to you, like they're finished with what they were doing, they want to come travel to see you, or they want to start something new here, like I feel clean slate. Okay, a clean slate. All right, let's take a look at the love messages. Flirt, yep, extend your lighthearted energy to others. So page one is definitely flirtatious type of communication. Ooh, engagement. Okay, something starting here.  So for some of you, and the Wheel of Fortune here, it could be a proposal for engagement. Okay, releasing your access person. For some of you, they've let go. Something or someone that they were still kind of involved with or talking to, I feel like that's kind of over with. I just want to put this down a little so you can see it. I feel like that is kind of over with. If they were involved with someone else, or something that they had going on in a relationship or a marriage or whichever, that's done. It's they're like, no, I'm done with it. They have a thing for you. Okay, they have a thing for you.   And let's take a look. I just want to see what this Queen of Pentacles is. The Queen of Pentacles is very stable, financially stable, secure.  She's reliable. Someone you can count on. Let's see. Okay, the moon card. That is Pisces and Energy. Okay. Oh, yeah. Okay.  Maybe you're just, maybe you're not active on YouTube or social media or anywhere else. Like, or just some of you might be just hiding out in your house, just on the couch watching Virgo's Netflix series here every day and just really engrossed in that. I feel like they kind of sense that you are just, I don't know, are you blocking or just pushing back? Like, you have some really strong boundaries up and I feel like this person is sensing that and they're kind of curious. You're not revealing too much, not revealing how you feel, not revealing what you want. Some of you just kind of, maybe you knew that this person was connecting with someone else and you just pulled away. You didn't really make a big fuss about anything. You just said, okay. Usually Virgos are kind of like that. They're just, they want the truth and then, but if they get the truth and or if they sense something's going on, they just pull back. They don't really like, Virgo, I feel like you try to save your energy for picking your battles and I feel like you're, this person senses that your battle is not to be aggressive but to be more defensive where you're just like, okay, nope, can't come in. I feel like this person, they're going to take a gamble here. They're really going to come in and start flirting and tell you that some of their intentions here is that they're finished with whatever that was going on with the next person they were talking to. It doesn't have to be an X, but like somebody else in the picture and want to move forward with you. They've been thinking about it here. Seven of Pentacles contemplating. I feel like there's definitely going to be communication from them telling you about their plans and ideas and what they want to get started with you. Okay. Some of you might even get, no, let's run away. Let's just run away. Let's go somewhere for the weekend or a week or something. Let's just kind of disappear and let's just sneak away. Okay. All right. So the nine of wands is here and this again. Let's see. Okay. So this definitely has to do with someone that they have been in a toxic relationship with. It's been so bad that this person I feel like actually became toxic themselves. Right? So it's kind of like, I feel like your person was involved with a male or female narcissist of some sort. You know, the devil was like, down in Georgia, the devil was all over that plate, all over wherever.  It could be like a family member or someone who's just all up in their business. And this person is very toxic to your person, causes a lot of problems is how I feel. And I feel like, kind of like a ripple effect. You know, like you had some type of connection with this person, not really sure what it was.  It's like a virus. That's why it's really important that if you, you know, it spreads like a disease.   Usually that comes from either parents or it could come from like a really long toxic abusive relationship. It takes a long time to heal, of course.    I just saw the eight of wands, but they're guarded. Yeah, they're very guarded with this person. Okay.  They don't want to be with their ex. This person is trying to get free and they don't care what the consequences are. They're running away from this devil here.  What did I just say? Your person is taking with them residual of an abusive relationship or it may not have been physical. For some it could have been. It may have also just been emotional abuse or mental abuse. And your person is seeing this now with whom they were with and how it was affecting them. I feel like they met you and they realized how the choices that they made and the decisions that they made and the relationships, the people they were choosing and taking a look at why. I feel like something here is telling me I don't know if this person met themselves in the mirror with somebody else or really took a look at themselves and saw like, wow, this is what I was doing to Virgo. What my ex was doing to me. Let's take a look at this devil here. The hermit. Wow, yeah. See, it's to me, it's subtle abuse. The person they were involved with might have been a covert narcissist. You know, that's subterfuge. That's like codependency. That's hidden manipulation and hidden abuse. That's putting guilt on another person. Passive aggressive behavior whomever they were with. Okay. All too, I feel if they knew about you they were doing things on purpose to your ex. They might have been saying things if they knew about you. To your ex about you. But kind of like turning it around and making it seem like it was all you Virgo who was causing the problems, really bad energy. Okay, the hanged man with the tower. Guess what? This person is having a major wake-up call in regards to who they were with. If you walked away from this person because they were messing around and they wound up going with another person, boy, did they get their karma. They totally got their karma because if your person thought that you were bad, the one that they were, it really was like a wake-up call for them. They have a brand new perspective. I mean, like their ego got smacked, right? Look at that tower moment.  Spirit came down.  Guess what? And that hanged man, Pisces and energy, 100% like, oh my gosh, I'm seeing things totally different now. Okay, King of Cups energy. So you could be connecting this actually, Cancer Scorpio Pisces and the Queen of Pentacles and the King of Cups is here. Cancer Scorpio Pisces, Virgo Taurus Capricorn. Definitely, I mean, the Queen of Pentacles and the King of Cups not of the same suit, but it is two court cards. So there is some kind of a match here. So the Hierophant is here. There is 100% a commitment, a marriage. This person is like falling in line with you. Okay, doing things the right way.  Again, when I said Jesus came down, sometimes that's like, that's a pope. I don't know what's going on. This person might be having like some kind of awakening to spiritual principles or, you know, coming away from some type of addiction or addictive behavior. I feel like this person is going to propose or tell you that they want to get engaged. You know, like really secure your relationship now. There's a death card again. Yeah, this person is ready. New beginnings are leaving that. They put death to this past relationship, whatever they were. This nastiness, I just feel it was nasty, nasty, male or female they were connecting with. This person was an extreme liar, abusive, very narcissistic, manipulative, disloyal. Really like caused a lot of anxiety, but all of the stuff that they did or that they do in general, not just to your person, but to others, it's all undercover. It's all covert. And that's the worst kind of narcissist. It's one thing if you're dealing with someone who's outright obviously abusive or those types of like narcissistic type people.   I mean, and that's what your person was dealing with.  That's insidious. That takes years and years. I mean, that's so damaging. I don't know if you guys know anything about that type of narcissist, the covert. I'm sure some of you do. As a matter of fact, if you watch on the news, a perfect example, I'm not trying to get into like news themes here, but hey, Virgo, drama in your readings. Chris Watts murders. Christopher Watts was a covert narcissist. These are the people pleasers. These are the types of people who can't say no. They say yes. They say yes. They do everything. They do everything. And then they complain and that they're not appreciated because they're codependent and they do it on purpose. Like, you know what I mean? They give to get and if they don't get the appreciation, then the hostility, the passive aggressiveness builds up and builds up and builds up and sometimes it leaks out where they'll do backhanded compliments or they'll say something like, that dress looks good on you. That color dress would look good on you. Like it's a backhanded compliment. How can I say it? Let me try to figure out like an example. That wasn't going well. I can't think of anything right now but a backhanded compliment is where they compliment you but then they insult you at the same time and you know that happens because then you're like, wait a minute, did you just insult me?  And then you feel bad. Don't feel bad. You got insulted. Like you have to wake up and see. So that's what that type of energy is. I went way too deep in the example here. I mean, it's a soul killer. And if you're not aware of that, it'll destroy your self-esteem. And I feel like your person, that's who they were dealing with. A type of person like that. But those people, they hold it in, hold it in, hold it in and then they explode. Another example is the Gabby and Brian thing that's going on right now. In the news, he's another example of that. They come off real sweet, real nice, real giving and you know, very serving type of person, but then they stab you in the back when you're not looking and then they blame it on you, right? We're going way too deep into this, but hey, it's your drama. I like those crime shows, so I see a lot of that. And I watch those because it's crazy. And I feel like the person that you were, right, they were connecting with, was doing this to them and they're finally leaving them. Finally, like they're getting away. Okay. Yep. King of Cups. Looking for just getting into arrested peace of mind state, okay? This person retreating totally from releasing that ex, whoever they were connecting with, like they've gone silent on this person.  It's really bad. It's really bad. Like this person had to just completely do a gray rock with that. Oh, hold on. You look at me dropping cards. Look, look at all the, look at all the gray rock here. Like do a gray rock with this person. Like saying nothing, not give them any information, not feed them any information. I'm going to pull another card for the hermit. Yeah, they, okay. So they could have been connecting with another water sign, Cancer Scorpio Pisces doesn't have to be. The Queen of Cups in the upright, very sweet, like I said, male or female, this person was very sweet, very kind, came across as, you know, came across as very giving and nurturing. That's kind of the appeal. All right. That's how that your person came across, but they were in the, in the dark, really with the abuse and it was hidden, hidden abuse. Nobody could see it. And a lot of people thought your person was crazy or overreacted. And I'm, listen, if you were dealing with someone, I'm not sticking up for your person if they did that to you. I'm not condoning that behavior. It's just an awareness and the messages is what I'm trying to bring here. You know, obviously, if you were on the receiving end of your person's abuse and because of what they went through, this could have been from a mother or a parents, a deep effect. You know, the Otobus complex shows up sometimes, whatever it might be.  And you're not giving too much information at this time either. Some of you are not trying to be affected by your person's people or other person, is how I feel as well. But I'm telling you, Virgo, talk about a wake-up call and I feel like this person is ready.   They may have lied to you about things and all because, you know, I mean, I don't usually say this in my readings, but I kind of feel bad for your person and I feel bad for you as well. Like, in a sense, like, my heart goes out to both of you because I feel like there's, like, deeply affected by whatever was going on. I know my readings can get really deep here, but the drama is, like, really high in this reading. Really, really high. And this just message is coming through.  I just do not want that responsibility. But I will, like, I don't mind giving the guidance and I feel like these are your guided messages right now. What you choose to do with this, you know, you have free will.   Or click off that video, you guys, because that's not even right. Listen, there's not many readers that do that, but I've heard a few do that. All right, anyway, let's take a look and see what the love messages are here from your person and for you because I see this person coming in and just kind of, like, saying, I made a big, big mistake or I really didn't understand what was going on and I really do love you and you are so good for me and I just was so taken by this person. It just, I'm just seeing, well, I just heard the words. He just gave me the black widow.  What does that mean? Black widow, black widow. Or like, just give me a vision of a praying mantis.  She like, she has SEX with the mouse and then abuses them. I don't know.  This is for you. Lean on your inner circle during this time, Bergo. Support this person. I lied to you. All right. They were lying to themselves. But, Bergo, this relation is moving toward a sacred union or marriage of some sort, okay? They're definitely afraid to contact you. I feel like there's shame. I feel like this person has a lot of shame. You know, they do have feelings for you. They have a lot of shame that they got taken for a ride by somebody else. You know, especially if they were cheating or if this is just someone that they were with before or they were trying to get away from while they were connecting with you. I just feel like this person just was so mentally disturbed and very confused by this person. All right, Bergo, you got to go slow. I mean, I don't see them, so I don't really see them coming in like with an actual proposal, right? Or just getting down on Bended Knee or sitting down and saying, let's get married tomorrow or let's do it. I do feel like they want to talk to you about this. This might have been something that you guys were planning in the past and then it didn't work out or there was cheating or manipulation or an ex came back or something and they left you and went back to see if it could work and then boom, they came to realize like their match came to realize this person is very abusive and they want to try to talk to you and try to make something work here again with you. Okay, this is you. You're definitely waiting for an apology from this person. Friendship is leading to more of some of you decided to just be friends or just said that even though it was hurtful for you to agree to that or to have to say that to this person and some of you just kind of were like, all right, well I'll talk to you when I talk to you, nothing serious because you know or you knew that something was going on with an ex but it feels like this is catching on fire again. So many things remind me of you Virgo. And second chance this relationship deserves a second chance and I want to point something out and I think I said this in my reading yesterday this card doesn't say this relationship deserves a third, fourth, fifth, sixth, 10, 20, 80 chance second chance, okay if you're on chance number three four or five then it's probably time to let it go because at that point your person has not woken up. Second chance means if you guys went through something before and now it's coming back around again you know because when she made these cards she didn't put third, fourth or fifth chance she just went to second okay this isn't baseball and it's not three strikes you're out because when it comes to love and betrayal and things like that two chances that's enough because there's always like okay the first chance okay I get it we've learned lessons now we're going on to the second one and this time we get it right okay third time isn't always a charm not when it comes to betrayal or cheating and abuse and stuff like that so I feel like your person wants to give it another try and of course, Virgo you're going to have to like figure out what you're going to do wow I have a card sitting here I don't know if you saw me playing with it it's just sitting here all by itself and I wanted to see what it was and it's the Hierophant commitment, relationship getting married doing it the right way by God by spirit in the houses of the holy doing it right having this union, this sacred union blessed that's what sacred is okay alright let's get your advice here and then I think I'm going to skip the singles today and the reason why is because I want to just give a break and a breather for the singles readings for a few days before I come back because there's a lot of singles readings that I've put out so I want to give you guys a chance to let that energy kind of just play out a little bit but I will be doing the twin flame reading soon for October so keep your eye out for that alright let's take a look Virgo what is your advice here Virgo sun moon rising Venus, Virgo's advice okay oh king of cups is back Virgo oh my goodness alright listen I know some of you might not be connecting with a water sign they might have water in the chart but it doesn't matter this person so whatever sign whatever king or queen shows up that basically means that this person is coming in in this energy the love, the heart, the emotional energy this person so whoever your person is but we do have the king of cups here twice is coming in as being trustworthy honorable, devoted and cautious someone you can completely trust now a situation that becomes safe, they show up safe a solid romantic relationship they have hidden but well intentioned emotions the king of cups does not wear their emotions on their sleeve they kind of are very thoughtful but they hide their emotions a lot this could be that your person wants to or agrees if you put that on the table to see counseling together because of something that has happened and listen I say all the time you don't have to be married to go to counseling together you can be in a relationship there's no prerequisite to have a healthy relationship getting some skills or trying to heal the connection not you going to counseling for them but it's just to get some healing for the two of you it doesn't have to be like a clinical counselor it could be a spiritual mentor it could be a pastor a priest a life coach it could be anything like that if they come back in and want to repair this and you say to them this time we're going to do it this way I feel like they would be open to doing that if they're not try other avenues but if this person is completely adverse or they're not ready then Virga you got to get your distance because they need to heal okay you got to give them that space to heal okay but I feel like for some of you your advice would be though to maybe seek some type of counseling in what I said or even a good friend that's got a really good head on their shoulders and can give wise counsel to you like me okay let's see what else what else is Virgo's advice here I just feel like you know your love life here your love of commitment and marriage is all over here and traditional relationship like a good good good solid blessed sacred union coming in okay the Empress time to take action Virgo okay beautiful give birth to your dreams creative projects will be very successful abundance and prosperity so you know Virgo alright for the males this could be somebody that this could be your person okay coming in as the Empress this person really leveling up and being everything that you wish you know so when I say for the males I just mean the divine feminine it doesn't matter what the you know gender is but I feel like okay they just said if your person you guys was having an issue with the mother there is your person gets some counseling in regard to the relationship with the mother or in regard to the relationship with the ex if the mother of their children or the ex okay and also it is your person willing to get counseling and to nurture the self okay and also for you is to come in with that Empress energy mostly for the divine feminine okay is to stay nurturing stay warm and loving and beautiful and you know remember who you are that's what I hear know your worth and remember who you are even if you go and get some counseling or you know some guidance just polishing yourself up a bit more is really nice it's really good some of that some of that old breath that you have sitting there in your house needs a good shine you need a good shiny shiny squeaky clean cleanse what else oh wow okay this is totally your card Virgo the high priestess okay somebody's name is Mary meditate and turn inward discover your soul's true desire this is not the time for action develop your intuitive gifts and trust the wisdom that you receive wow alright I feel like this is just kind of your healing and silence right now Virgo and it's very beautiful okay and I know this reading was kind of specific and it may not resonate for all of you and that's fine you can listen to yesterday's reading or go back another day because this is all going into the month of October is how I feel but I feel like you know there's a lot of things that you are trying to understand right now some of you might really be like reading your Bibles and I just love the Bible so I'm always talking about the Bible but some of you were just kind of look at how she's holding an apple it's kind of like getting healthy and upload keeps the doctor away you guys are really getting like mental health going on here intuitive spiritual health and I feel like if you're doing that keep doing that keep that going there's definitely an angel watching over you right now and if you've been having things kind of working out for you lately I kind of feel like some of you are like making plans and then the plans aren't going through and it is Mercury retrograde so there's been a lot of stops and starts and fall starts but then things actually start moving again and turn out better than you expected I don't know if you've been experiencing that I certainly have and if you expect that when there's like a fall start or something that you were hoping for isn't going the way you wanted or there's like a snag don't get impatient don't lose your cool that snag is there to propel you into something even better than you expected there was a saying that I once heard the further you pull the bow back on a bow and arrow when you release it the farther ahead you'll go so the greater the tension you feel the further ahead you'll be propelled so understand that understand that the more difficult it is the farther you're going to go because the stronger you're going to get I don't know a strange message alright let's see wow you have the infinity symbol okay it comes around goes around burgo and for some of you as I was saying before in this reading your person I think they might have gone back to a karmic or they re-engaged with a karmic and or they were they were engaged to one or they proposed to a karmic and it didn't work out okay or you know they just realized this person just realized the person they were dealing with was like looks real great on the outside but inside decaying this person their person had a decaying soul like people who they're giving me this image of like I don't know if you know what whoppers are those little chocolate malt balls sometimes they're in the box and you pull a couple out and you look at it and it's like real shiny and looks delicious you bite into it and it's all rotted to the core on the inside they're like yeah like those whoppers like those malt balls I don't know if you have them if you're outside of the US we have them here oh it's the worst thing it's awful are you biting to an apple and then there's like it's all rotten on the inside that's what I feel is going here and that's it's like a cancer that just spreads like a disease from person to person to person and you were affected by something that happened to somebody okay so we have a dove with a shamrock and that's definitely healing and peace absolutely possibly Ireland Ireland our connection is very lucky okay the dove brings there's like a peace offering I feel and when I say lucky or taking a gamble the Wheel of Fortune is here oh I just heard besides a vacuum cleaner going off I just heard the Prince song when doves cry and I can't remember how the song goes is it dream if you will a picture of you and I engaged in a kiss sweat of your body covers me is that the song can you my darlin can you picture this dream if you can uh oh shouldn't the violet blue animals strike curious poses they feel the heat that's not the song is it that's just that's the tune they're giving me is that when doves cry I don't know oh my gosh I'm gonna have to listen to that song and it's crazy too because there's a guitar here and Prince you know he was all about the guitar maybe when somebody hears Prince lover still listens to his music I rest his soul um yeah that song very strong I don't know if I have the words right uh when doves cry is it is that the song somebody tell me if that's the song or it or am I singing a different song that I can't remember but if you guys know that the lyrics to when doves cry if that's not the right song posted in the comments or in the chat here I can't um I can't play the song because I have um I have um get a copyright strike for playing copyright music but maybe your person is a musician or plays bass I just heard somebody plays bass plays plays a bass instrument maybe you do or guitar of some sort or isn't a cover band called infinity so weird I feel like I want to get another charm here I got that stuck in my head when doves cry okay so we have a cacti cactus flower I just heard they say cactus flower that's what it's more important it's not the cactus it's the cactus flower um now maybe there's like somebody who lives somewhere where there's cacti I don't would that be uh I don't know is it Arizona, Nevada is there cacti in texas I don't know where is are there cacti anywhere else in the world besides those places in America I don't know but that seems to be if that if that if any of this resonates for you definitely a message for you I'm just going to do a couple more charms here okay I I was just thinking of this somebody in the chat I showed this you guys I pulled this the other day and somebody said texas longhorn I don't know what the heck that means but I just said texas so there's something going on here with texas or this is like a fossilized skull somewhere in the desert interestingly enough too when I pulled this this is kind of like I feel like I just heard panhandle I don't know what that means a panhandle and I'm hearing this is like gold you know when you know when Japanese they just said Japanese gold sifting for gold gold golden nugget golden nugget casino golden nugget okay let's do a couple more you guys cause stuff's getting strange here alright so we have a wrench somebody threw a wrench in the wheel okay and a little birdie I always feel like that's the twitter bird there's something to do keep your eye out okay I know not all of you are on twitter I log into twitter just to read the news and the weather and stuff but I don't use it but cause I really don't understand it but I feel like if anyone here uses twitter and I don't know if this is related to your somebody somebody said the mechanic did it I just heard tell them on twitter the mechanic did it the mechanic caused the problem something to do with the mechanic okay and we have an eagle the mechanic eagle bald eagle the car broke down the car is being fixed he or she is getting caught because their car breaks down they get caught by the police their car breaks because their car broke down or they get pulled over by police and they have like there's a wrench and that's like the weapon what the heck what am I talking about I just sometimes my brain gets hijacked with these messages and the eagle what is the eagle tell me this eagle oh this person is bald maybe they are bald bald eagle the eagle snatches up the prey I don't know what that means I'm just going to pull one more and then I'm going to leave this weird ass reading here no I'm not I'm leaving it here because this is just too much it's too much with these charms and these messages but anyway yeah that was fun alright you guys I'm going out to dinner so actually I'm recording this earlier so by the time I listen to this I'm oh maybe I'll still be out we'll see so you guys I hope that was fun I have to reset I'm getting these I just keep getting these images so this feels like there's some kind of crime I don't know if it's connected to you or it's just something on Twitter I feel and I know okay some of you are like I don't even use Twitter okay well maybe it's not for you or go on it I don't know it's going to be connected to you somehow leave me a comment or let me know what the heck I'm talking about somebody it's four of one of you there's a car called an eagle oh um a Jeep Eagle somebody gets caught their Jeep Eagle breaks down and they get caught while they're trying to fix it and it's like all over Twitter or somebody like it's in the news why am I shuffling I'm out of here alright you guys I hope you enjoy that let me know if this resonates I don't know what the heck's going on I will see you guys tomorrow have a wonderful weekend love you very much bye Virgo


I welcome everyone. We will continue on with this deep presence. Thank you. And enjoy this time together, giving our gratitude and thanks to our Wayshower Jesus, and it's so beautiful that it's Father's Day. It's been a very interesting time. It's been a very precious weekend that we've all shared together. And we've come here to open our hearts and to deepen in the trust and to continue our walk with Christ. To be the hands and feet, to be the life that shines and radiates out into this world. And we have accepted. We've said yes to that. And we are opening and walking deeper and deeper in that. And the idea that was coming to me today was that everything is forgiven and now we are accepting that. That's what the atonement is. Nothing not generating something new, we're just accepting the correction in our mind that was given to us. Our one responsibility. So I want you to place on the altar of your mind this morning anything that has been bothering you or irritating you, any yearning that has felt unfulfilled, any need or lack on this Father's Day, place this on the altar. And we offer it up that we may have a clean and clear and open mind. Go forth and shine your love and extend your peace and share what you feel, of course, is very close to us this morning. Hello everyone for that show. Today I just really want to express love, express peace, express happiness as has already been mentioned today's Father's Day and has already been mentioned that has two meanings for those of us feeling that love connection with our earthly Father today and then also for all of us knowing that deep connection to our true Father, that love that never ends, a joy that is always there. So I wanted to share a little bit about myself and just maybe a little bit about how I've gotten here on this couch with David Hofmeister. So, yeah, I would say I've been a spiritual seeker for most of my adult life and trying many different paths and finding something a little lacking in all of them. Like I felt like, oh, there's some truth here. I really recognize that. And then there's some truth here. But then they always felt like there was incompleteness. There was something that wasn't whole in that thought system, in that thought system. And eventually I started working with the Course and I don't think I got it right away. I was doing the workbook lessons, studying on my own. And then I walked into a Barnes & Noble and there was disappearance of the universe. I had no idea it was about the Course, but I knew I was supposed to get it. And since then it's been very clear to me that this is my home. This is my path. A little bit after I started leading Course Study Groups and soon after that I actually went out to California. I lived in the Chicago area. And I went to a men's retreat. This one's called The Grail. The Holy Grail, our search for peace, our search for truth. And I had an experience there. Every participant goes through a rite, a ritual. And in mine I really invoked Jesus. At the very post that I said, I want to know Jesus. I want to experience your love. I want to know your presence as fully as I can. And I went through a very dark, dark, painful experience after I invoked that. But it led into this very beautiful space of light. Another participant shared with me afterwards as I was feeling this anguish during this time that he saw the crucifixion in the pain that I was feeling and the pain that I was letting come through me. And then it flipped into this experience of joy and this experience of the Christ and this experience of oneness and happiness.  And I noticed that my feet hurt. And I looked down and I had two open sores on my feet. Which I realized is a stigmata that I had wounds in my feet where Jesus was nailed to the cross. The wounds healed fairly quickly over a few days. But another thing about my connection with Jesus is that I've tuned into another of my past lives. I assist people in doing that. It's my profession. One time I got in touch with a very intense past lifetime. And that lifetime was at the time of Jesus. And I knew that I was a Roman soldier who nailed Jesus to the cross. It was an amazing experience when I got in touch with this. Because I turned to look at Jesus as I was nailing him to the cross. And there was no judgment. There was no pain. There was no fear. There was no anger. I mean this was my job basically. As a soldier I'd done this a number of times. And to have that experience shook me. It moved me. It helped me to see that there was something more. And I think it's that testament to the unreality of the body. To the everlasting nature of our Father that he expressed. And that experience for all of us is a testament that he is the way shower. That he is walking these steps so that we can know these steps are ours as well. There's nothing special about Jesus. He is that elder brother. He is holding our hand. And he is guiding us on our journey. I really appreciated the guided meditation this morning that Lori led. It's just so beautiful. So beautiful. And I too wanted to read a little bit from the Course. A section about our Holy Father. This is from obstacles to peace in chapter 19. And the second section. The second obstacle to peace. Which is the belief that the body is valuable for what it offers. You want communion. Not the feast of fear. You want salvation. Not the pain of guilt. And you want your Father. Not a little mound of clay to be your home.  He has not lost communion with him. Nor with himself. When you agreed to join your brother. You acknowledged this is so. This has no cost. But it has release from cost. You have paid very dearly for your illusions. And nothing you have paid for brought you peace. Are you not glad that heaven cannot be sacrificed? And sacrifice cannot be asked of you? There is no obstacle that you can place before our union. For in your holy relationship. I am there already. We will surmount all obstacles together. For we stand within the gates. And not outside. I just really want to say thank you. To everyone who is here. Thank you. And thank you God. Thank you God for your everlasting presence in our hearts and in our minds. We cannot be without you. We cannot imagine maybe that we can. But that does not make it so. So we express our everlasting gratitude. And I want to say thank you to David too. So in all our ways today may we go forth and be the demonstration of the love and light of Christ. Let the Christ shine through our eyes and smile through us and laugh through us and hug through us. And may we be protected and watched over in all our ways. Thank you all. Amen.


Hello and welcome to another episode of the Dairy Roundup. I am Aditya and we're bringing to you a glimpse of some of the most important stories that we report about here at newsclick.in. Over a month ago, the central government announced 10% reservation for economically weaker sections from among the general category candidates in government jobs and educational institutions. All centrally funded educational institutions including IITs, IIMs, central universities, and IITs were collectively added close to 1.5 lakh seats in the new academic session starting July and another 96,000 seats approximately next year to implement the 10% quota. The capacity expansion will cost the government roughly Rs 5,600 crore according to the implementation plan shared by all the central institutions. This financial cost of implementing EWS reservation is much more than the estimate of Rs 4,200 crore initially prepared by the HRD ministry. While the BJP is looking to woo voters ahead of general elections, the ambitious project's implementation is likely to be hit by major roadblocks like infrastructure and staff deficit. It also appears that funding for the implementation may fall short as the interim budget presented earlier this month has embarked only Rs 4,600 crore for the project. The centrally funded institutions have also been facing a cute deficit of teachers for many years. The central universities at present have over 6,000 positions vacant. Major universities like DU, BHU have started depending upon ad hoc teachers to conduct their academic programs. Many academicians believe that despite EWS expansion, the students will be deprived of quality education. Over 2.5 lakh jute mill workers from West Bengal are gearing up for an indefinite strike from March 1, demanding wage revision and implementation of the minimum wages act in the jute industry. The strike across all jute mills in the state is expected to impact over 4.5 million jute crores. The jute sector in West Bengal has not seen any major wage revision since 2011. Workers said they were still being paid a mere of Rs 250 per day. Criticising the government for ignoring workers' concerns, trade union leaders pointed out that the union textiles minister, Smriti Irani, has refused to pay heed to the jute workers' demands when several union representatives met with her. Unions in the jute sector also alleged that the PF trustee boards at the mill level had been forcefully taken over by the ruling party mafia. Air India, the country's national carrier which is struggling to keep afloat, has not paid flying allowance to pilots for December. Flying allowance is paid to a pilot on the basis of the number of flight hours clocked by her in a month and constitutes a major chunk of their total consolidated salary. Two unions of Air India pilots, the Indian Commercial Pilots Association ICPA and Indian Pilots Guild, IPG, have written to the management on February 10, stating that they are working under stressful conditions that have direct implications on flight safety. After Air India was deliberately dunked into debt and made sick by the previous Congress-led United Progressive Alliance regime, UPA, it has consistently been in a situation of dire straits. It has a debt burden of nearly Rs 55,000 crore thanks to mainly, one, the excessive number of aircraft bought under civil aviation minister Praful Patel during UPA-1. Two, the merging of international carrier Air India with the public sector and country's largest domestic airline Indian Airlines. And three, giving away of most lucrative international routes and slots to private carriers. In international news, hundreds of water workers marched in Detroit on February 9 protesting the announcements made by General Motors, GM, of the closure of their plants in massive layoffs. According to Detroit Free Press, on February 4, GM announced its plan to eliminate about 4,000 jobs across North America, including close to 1,300 jobs at the company's Warren Technical Center. The company's decision has been criticized as a plan to maximize profits by increasing the workforce in low-wage countries like Mexico at the expense of its plants in North America. It should be noted that such an announcement was made against the backdrop of Donald Trump's chest thumping about signing a new trade agreement, United States, Mexico-Canada Agreement, USMCA, with Canada and Mexico after enulling the North American Free Trade Agreement, NAFTA. The protest received powerful statements of support from representatives of the Maruti Suzuki workers in India who face framed cases, tea plantation workers in Sri Lanka, and the striking auto parts workers in Matamoros, Mexico. Greetings are also sent from workers in Turkey, Germany, the UK and Australia.


Thanks for joining us today for our discussion of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. I'm Candice Rondeau and I'm the director of the Future Frontlines program at New America, a public intelligence service for next generation security and democratic resilience. I think I speak for many, if not most of the world today. When I say that I wish we did not have to be having this discussion, I wish that Ukraine, Russia, and the world was not in such a precarious situation. But here we are on the precipice of a new order, and also in the middle of probably one of the most devastating conflicts in recent history and in recent memory. Even as we meet here today with our colleagues from Civic and Bellingcat, Russian forces continue to press forward into major cities like Harkiv, Pearson, Kiev, and the scale of civilian harm has been significant. And unfortunately, we may only see this get worse as the fighting continues. Some of you may know that the UN has been releasing different casualty estimates over the last several days, and the estimates are a little bit all over the map. But as recently as yesterday, we saw casualty figures as many as 400 killed so far in six days of fighting, and obviously hundreds injured, but even the UN has to acknowledge and has acknowledged that that number is probably low. And that the scale of the harm already has been much, much more significant. And we also know that 500,000 people at least have been displaced by the conflict and the invasion so far, and that many, many more may still come to be displaced as the fighting continues. And the correlation on Russia's part has real consequences, obviously beyond Ukraine for Europe and for the United States and for the world in general. But before we dive into all that, and I introduce our panelists, I want to make sure that we hear from folks on the ground and most importantly, we're so lucky today to be joined by Lisa Baran, the country director for Ukraine. I know that the Center for Civilians in Conflict. She has been there for many years and last time I saw her was just before the pandemic began. And we were living in a different world, but fearing perhaps that this one, this day would come. Lisa. I know this has been tough for you. But you know, I also know that this is an important moment for you to tell us what's happening. So thank you for joining us. Maybe give us just a quick debrief from the ground. Thank you, Candice and thanks for inviting me to this event. You know when I was invited and I was thinking normally people who know me they know how logical I am and you know like I have very clear talking points in, you know, like and they're very logical canvas to build on. This is the first time in my life and it's really difficult. It's just, it's, it's just beyond comprehension what is happening. You know, like we obviously, you know, like as a professional at Civic and just a normal person when we saw these escalations starting with the late last year. We were doing some scenarios, right, you know, like developing different scenarios, and part of the scenarios was obviously, you know, like to think forward about the potential risks to civilians, what we are doing in civic protection of civilians but also we were working on contingency planning for our safety of all the stuff. And, and I remember all these you know like when we were going into the very extreme scenario, it was like, Oh, no, it will never happen. I mean it's just crazy. It's just, you know, it's just not normal. It just won't happen. And at that time, it's, you know, like, since we had our colleagues pushing us to think through all the scenarios and just to prepare for anything, right, you know, like it's better to be prepared rather than, you know, like going around and thinking what you're doing. And I was, I was moving to my hometown in Western part of Ukraine, the safest place in Ukraine at the, at the moment. And I just left my car with the keys in the office just for the very extreme situation if somebody if my colleagues have to flee from Ukraine and I was, I was 100% sure that it will never ever happen. And so I was living this peaceful life in, in Uzhgorod. When I would, when I received this call at five a.m. from one of our military officers who we work with who said that it started. He's like, what started. He's like, the airport barista is burning. The other training center is burning. Call all your colleagues. They have to be ready to move to go to the shelter or whatever, you know, like off to free any moment, just call them. I still thought I still couldn't believe that it's happening. I went on the news, you know, like we started calling each other. Basically, it took us several hours to make decisions for some people to leave. Luckily, again, my car was there, one of my colleagues was able to collect his whole family, six people in the, you know, like totally they, they were jumped in the small Toyota car to flee here with a small child and the cat. Others waited for longer. I still have one of my colleagues in Harkiv. She, she was, she's originally from Lugans. She had to flee in 2014. And then she said that she's not fleeing the second time. This is her homeland, and she's not running away again. And she, luckily she sent her children to Dnipro to chat to children with an excuse me, with the evacuation convoy from the state emergency service. But she, she decided to stay with her husband in Harkiv. And during the first two or three days, they basically didn't come out from the shelter.  And then around midday, it all starts, the siren starts, and then everybody's in the shelter just sitting there for, you know, basically until the next morning. My three other, three other colleagues are still in Kiev.  And the only thing I can do is just checking that they are fine, you know, like, and, and the all these posts, like, oh, you know, like, there is an explosion. It's really close to me. I mean, I know that it's a coping mechanism that is, you know, like turning on when you cannot be scared all the time.  But it's just, it's just, it's just insane. Another colleague is not far from Cherkassi, and, and she knows that she's stuck there because now she cannot go on the roads, you know, like it's very, you don't know where you end up with either under an air strike or a strange checkpoint or these crazy Russians who are killing civilians on the roads. They just killed a shot at a regular civilian boss in the here's one area hockey area. People are stuck there. Some obviously, you know, like they just don't want to move because they feel that it would be a surrender and they want to stand up for their own hometown. Others are just, you know, like, they just don't have any other choice. Before the war, we were working with communities along the contact line on civil military dialogues, the community based protection initiatives, and we are still in contact with them through Facebook. And they were telling what is going on with their villages there somewhere I just burned down there just don't don't exist anymore. Some are heavily shelled.   They're doing really crazy stuff to people's houses and their belongings. There is no some villages don't have electricity. Some villages have very limited mobile connection right now. In some villages people just cannot move out because they have immobile parents relatives and there is no obviously because of, you know, like the hostilities are the fighting is still going on. There is no way to evacuate them in any ways. And the same corridors are not provided to get people out. I don't know I can go on and on and on and on and on, you know, like when when this whole thing started with civic started tracking civilian casualties we put together this nice Excel sheet, you know, like monitoring all the news. Yesterday we just realized that we cannot keep up.  And since we are not the organization who does monitoring and triangulation which is, you know, we just don't have the capacity is just becoming huge. And, and, and the other crazy thing is that the latest trend is it's clear that they started using civilians and as human shields. We are having examples when they are using a mental hospital. They in Turkey in China give up as they put all the patients and the stuff in the basement they locked them.  And in other, you know, like there is, I just received the news that in one of the settlements they are going around with white banner, and going closer to civilians and they're just shooting at them. I told you a civilian bus was shot that today. They're, they're placing the toys and matches, you know, with explosives.  I mean, I don't know. I didn't see whether it was true, but our intelligence told us several times and they want all the civilians to be careful because they're putting on uniforms of Ukrainian, you know, like state emergency service or police or whatever. And then they pretend that they're doing, you know, like organizing evacuation of people and they plan to use them as a shield to was there 10 times to come in.  And we clearly see that the longer it goes, the more cruel they are becoming. I don't know whether it's related to the fact that all of a sudden they realized that nobody was waiting for them here, probably something that they were told that, you know, like we will be meeting them here with flowers and happy to see them.  I just pray that my colleagues stay safe in Harkiv and in Kiev. And, and that tomorrow morning during our regular check in, you know, like I will see them all again. Sorry. Lisa, thank you. I know that this is extremely difficult and I want to thank you one for your courage to just even take the time to be with us and talk about what is happening on the ground and give us that perspective. And I can imagine how much pain and stress and fear you're coping with your colleagues are your family, not knowing the answer to what will come tomorrow. I really want you to know that we feel that we're grateful for your contributions to this conversation. Let me introduce our other colleagues and see if we can open up the conversation a little bit. First let me introduce Beatrice Godefroy, good friend, long time friend. Almost, almost too much crisis in our lives isn't it Beatrice. Beatrice is the director for Europe for the center in the civilians of conflict. And she works very closely with Lisa she has of course been tracking the conflict in Ukraine for a very long time. She also has spent many years on the front lines for leadership positions with doctors without borders. You name it, she has probably been there, some sort of crisis or disaster or another. I also want to introduce Eric toller, who is a director of research and training at Bellingcat, a collective investigative collective that has focused very closely on conflict in Ukraine for many years, and famously of course reported on the Malaysian airline commercial jet MH17 using open source techniques, as well as the poisonings of the Scribbles and Alexei Navalny more recently. He joins us today from the middle of America. We're happy to have him here today. I also want to introduce my colleague Ben Dalton, an open source investigative fellow with the future front lines program. In addition to being a proud graduate of NYU journalism school just like I am. He also holds a second degree in Russian and Slavic studies. He has reported also from Ukraine on and off for many years. We also have in common, being alumni from international crisis group, where we have covered lots of different conflicts around the world. I just recently worked with me on a story about Russian mercenaries that we have been tracking, who had signal that they were planning to to join in the fray in Ukraine early on, a story about the Wagner group or contingent of the Wagner group known as usage. And their, their plans to join the fray in Ukraine so really great to have you all on board for this conversation. Given, you know, given circumstance and given sort of this description that Lisa has given us in terms of the tensions on the ground, the challenges for civilians. I do want to ask want to turn to you first Beatrice and just sort of open up the floor and talk a little bit about what you think we need to be thinking about in terms of the challenges. There's been talk of, you know, the need to open a humanitarian corridor potentially out of Q, potentially out of Kharkiv, Kyrsyn and so forth. What are the prospects and what would that mean in terms of, you know, civilian protection and the challenge there. Well, thank you Candice and thank you for inviting us to this conversation. It's obviously very hard to be speaking now from Geneva after Lisa has shared her experience and that was very strong. Thank you. Thank you very much Lisa for taking the time and for the courage to do this with us today. So, no, I mean just to first to re-emphasize some of the points that Lisa mentioned. So we've been trying to track just internally as civic what were the patterns of civilian harm since the beginning of this, of this attack of this invasion and, you know, while on the first couple of days maybe or maybe for the 76 hours what we were, you know, collecting or tracking was, let's say more instances of collateral damage or incidental harm, due to the fact that there was fighting and shelling happening in urban areas. So as we know from previous conflicts, it's indeed situations where based on the types of weapons and the types of tactics that you use the risk of collateral damage or indiscriminate attacks is higher in these environments, but definitely starting from, let's say, the week I mean it's very hard to put it, let's say over the weekend we could see emerge these patterns that Lisa was mentioning, which are at a very intense space it's very hard to keep track so in terms also of, you know, what message is to push and to prioritize for us as a, you know, civil society community. There are so many of them at the moment. And Lisa mentioned some of the most acute trends that we're seeing emerge. Some of them of course it's very hard to triangulate the information so some of the examples that Lisa mentioned we're still, you know, trying to understand the risks which are being highlighted by local authorities or which are actual whether there are actual incidents who have already happened, but definitely this trend of human shield of direct targeting of civilians evacuating areas with no under heavy fighting as well as booby trapping and targeting civilian infrastructure with particular risk to civilians like nuclear sites for instance of fuel deposits. These are really trends that we have seen emerge and accelerate in the past few days. And, and so this is direct or indirect targeting to civilians. This is unlawful practice and this must stop. In the very immediate way what's what's the main way all of us can can you know try and help civilians at the moment, all of us which are not direct humanitarian actors right. And so, I think we should, we should put all our strengths and do whatever we can do to, to try and advocate for this humanitarian corridors to be put in place, going in and out of areas where there is intense fighting at the moment should be the top priority for but also for humanitarian actors and humanitarian supplies in those areas where there is heavy fighting. For some of them, it's been really hard on impossible to bring in food or essential supplies or medical supplies since already six days and as the days are going to go. They seven eight nine 10 the intensity of the gap is going to increase. So, once again, and I know this is such a difficult ask actually are the difficult thing to achieve at the moment but this is a top priority to improve the protection of the population. Yeah, in those in those areas and they're under intense fighting at the moment. And, and again I want to insist also on trying to do everything we can to support the evacuation and providing their foods for civilians, as well as improving the, let's say ramping up the capacity to bringing essential humanitarian supplies where they are needed. Like just to add as well a line on and Lisa mentioned the hospital. We have also collected data and have been also reported in the media of ambulances being hit. And, and medical supplies being hit by medical facilities are being hit as well. And, and we have seen in the past few years extremely worrying trends on medical facilities medical staff medical personnel being targeted or hitting the context of urban of war happening in urban areas. And so we should definitely do everything we can to advocate for the protection of medical personnel medical facilities and I'm sorry there's a little bit of noise in the background. No worries, no worries. Well, thank you. Listen, I, I think that's right. We, you know, as a, as those who visited the edge of the humanitarian community, right, I think advocating for, you know, opening the lines of for humanitarian assistance is going to be key. We have to continue to keep up that message and that and the pressure. I am reminded, as, as both you and Lisa are talking. You know, unfortunately, you know, I've spent too much time studying sort of Russian military history, you know, I fear, unfortunately, we're seeing replication of some of the tactics that we saw in Afghanistan, you know, butterfly lines and all kinds of things aimed at booby trapping, you know, objects that children would pick up essentially, you know, people who would really be deeply affected for the rest of their lives. And it would change a complete generation. Right. And we saw that in Afghanistan. We've seen that in Chechnya. We've seen that in Syria. And these tactics are, I guess, just part of the doctrine, even, even if it is not an express doctrine and that is, of course, frightening. I want to turn to Ben because he has I think some historical perspective on that to share as well as just also open it up to Eric to talk a little bit about kind of what, what these tactics mean, and how we're seeing that kind of that transformation, unfortunately that translation, I should say, from all these different previous conflicts where Russia has been the chief aggressor. How should we interpret that then. Yeah. I'll say that. So we've been monitoring for for months now, a lot of the social media channels associated with as Candace mentioned, these Russian mercenary groups that are sort of collectively referred to as the Wagner group, but there's all these various contingents. And, you know, the part that that I'm seeing now that is maybe the most worrisome on these channels, particularly on places like telegram of contactia is a sort of Jekyll and Hyde. Like, on the one hand, there's like appeals to, you know, this imagined sympathetic Ukrainian audience to sort of feed them intelligence but on the other hand there's this sort of really blood thirsty desire for punitive measures. That that clearly is as we heard from from Lisa is already being carried out on the civilian population. And, you know, this was signaled well in advance of the invasion we saw. There was a intelligence report that they were drawing up lists of people who were affiliated with, you know, the government or the Euro Maidan revolution. And he came himself in his speech from, I guess it was just about a week ago, just took a particularly like punitive tone. I think he in his mind is very like sincere when he when he says that he wants to denotify Ukraine, by which he means, you know, either arrest or liquidate these people that he sees as, as, you know, having corrupted the country. And now on social media we're already seeing sort of so far I think unconfirmed reports of people going around with lists of locals in parts of the country that have been under, you know, Russian control. So, yeah, I mean this feels very reminiscent of what took place in Chechnya throughout the 90s. This goes way back. Sure does. And that's, unfortunately, I think the expression has these echoes of, you know, a kind of final solution tone that really is quite scary. Eric, let me turn to you. You know, yesterday, the chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court, Korean Khan said he was planning to open a new line of investigation. You know, of course the ICC, the International Criminal Court has been investigating the downing of MH17, as well as other incidents in and around the Donbass area. But now, you know, he seems to have indicated that this is this is beyond the pale and that the invasion calls for a new line of investigation. So in your background, your experience, what are the challenges now that we face with trying to develop kind of an evidentiary in line, given the extreme scale, the overwhelming scale of just what's happening that Lisa just described. A lot of the lessons learned from Syria are being adapted here now, and also at the end and that there's an overwhelming as you're mentioning, that information coming in across Ukraine of clear, you know, human rights abuses and things that are actionable, I guess you could say from the ICC's perspective, and there's been a big shift in the ICC in the last five or so years and that they're now using more or accepting more user generated data to include for their, you know, in combination with the things they normally, you know, their bread and butter witness accounts and things like that. They're using a lot more user generated content coming from social media. Kind of the landmark case about this that a lot of people talk about is an arrest warrant was issued for a Libyan commander, a while ago, I think, I think he's dead now for folly. But the basis of the first, there's two awards put out for him, but the very first one that came out was entirely just based off of Facebook, Facebook posts, because he had posted videos of some executions that were carried out against election ISIS fighters outside of Benghazi back five or six years ago. So, you know, starting with that, with this entire arrest warrant based entirely off of Facebook videos which obviously could be geolocated and verified and known to be, you know, that could be used in court. I mean, it's now a lot more essential because you don't have, you know, witness accounts are obviously important for this sort of thing. But the user generated content is, you know, it's literally video from civilians and sometimes participants so the conflict that show exactly what happened that it could be verified the place time location and so on. And what's going on right now is often in the collection verification and preservation of this evidence and they're a handful of people working in this and at the ICC they have a lot of mechanisms doing this now. The UN has a bunch of mechanisms within their various teams on, you know, they don't have a, you know, they don't have a team setup as far as I know, specifically for, you know, the same way they have for like the, they don't have a BLIM with Syria or the double I double M with Myanmar, as far as I know they don't have one for Ukraine yet like this. But those mechanisms are in place to specifically to, to gather, verify and preserve this evidence and use it for whatever comes next, either now or in the future. So the big challenge right now is with this overwhelming flood of information. This is the highest level of gathering, collecting, verifying and preserving this stuff. You know, this is the, you know, the mile high view of how things are going, but from a much lower level of, you know, just stuff you see on social media and the journalists and things like that stuff that won't be years in the future with, you know, with the history books and with court cases and all that stuff. There's a lot of grassroots efforts going on right now from to, you know, to curate and collect and gather this stuff up we're doing some stuff with Bellicat I know other organizations are as well. I just understand the conflict as it's happening right now. So those are the kind of the two fronts when you talk about the propagation of user generated content, kind of the grassroots level here are people just trying to understand what's happening and knowing you know what's what's actually real what's just what is older cycle content from 2014 and so on. So for example, there are two videos, at least two I've seen of people throwing models of cocktails, you know, from at Russian tanks and one of them is from 2014, and one of them is recent they both have 5 billion views all the time but you know they're kind of on equal footing right now.  For the future for, again, like the mile high view of you know international justice and accountability, having preserved verified copies of this user, user generated content is stuff that it will be thankful that we have in the future. Let me let me dig into that just a little bit more because I do think, you know, there's kind of this balance here between what's happening now on the ground, needing to document it, ensuring that there's accountability for lots of different reasons for your potential reparations for, you know, civilian harm all kinds of reasons why we should be interested in these questions. I remember that during the escalation of the Syrian crisis, you know around 2014 15. There was this real battle to get YouTube to preserve some of this information and yet this is, we're in this very tricky situation, where, you know, Russia clearly also considers, you know the internet to be part of the front. And that you know that information is the second front is what I saw on a couple of telegram channels the other day. And so that really complicates matters. I want on a couple of levels one from a accountability level but I also want to turn to Lisa here also, and touch on just sort of the psychological impact on Ukrainians of this kind of dual track that we have where the information flowing online. People are kind of disconnected from each other because they're, you know, hunkered down music. Can you talk a little bit about that. Yes, sure. And, you know, like I know that, you know, like sometimes I go into these tears and this is I'm, and I even didn't witness, you know, like, probably, compared to my, you know, like other, you know, like citizens and friends and whatever were in the main part and the other part of the country. I didn't witness and I didn't experience all this right you know like I was here from the very beginning of this year was just working remotely from my hometown here. So when this whole happen thing happened I was here.   And they were, you know, like it was the second the third day already it's like the, the end of this, the probably one of the last batches of you know like people who can still move around in the, in the road. There is no gas on the road.  They're reaching the nearest city, which is, they don't let them in to the city because there is a signal the alarm signal, you know, like air strike is coming in. It took them several, you know, like like 1015 minutes to persuade the checkpoint, you know, that this is the only shelter and they had a family who was ready to host them so they reached that family they just grabbed them and took them to the to the shelter and that's why they where they spend the whole night. They hit the road the next day was, you know, like some military luckily, you know, like giving the landing them, I mean, giving them some fuel, you know, like so that they can get at least to the nearest city. And, you know, like, and again, three, three days of this type of travel and, and they, you know, like when I told them that, okay, here's the washing machine you can use is like, they don't have anything to wash. This is all the only dress we have on us. It's just, and again, you know, like I'm sitting in the safest place in the country. I can't even imagine what other people are going on through right now in Kiev and Harkiv and other places where they, I have the chat where they're telling us the when the alarm system goes on in each city so that people can see. It's just, it's never stops. It never stops. Every, every five minutes there is another alarm, you know, like, and people are called to go to shelter here, there, you know, the whole country now, the whole country except for transcapacities. It's, I, it's, I don't know, I, you know, like, if somebody told me that in the 21st century, this type of work and what happened, I would never, I mean, I think nobody believed that it would happen. And, and, and what almost 40 million people are under all the stress right now. I, yeah, I, you know, like the other thing is huge lines of the water crossing, like I yesterday I was going, you know, like to visit my father in the hospital and it's that way it's, I don't know, it's at least 10 kilometers that that the line of the cars and people are sitting in those cars with children again you know that you know that men are not allowed to do that. So these are women and children. I, I'm, I'm pretty sure that everybody who went through this will will have this trauma throughout their, the rest of their life. Yes, maybe it won't be that painful to talk about, you know, like it hopefully in some period of time, unfortunately, we don't know how long it will last. Unfortunately, it doesn't turn, it doesn't look like it's just a matter of days or even weeks that it's as it stands right now. So, yeah, I mean, I, it's, I don't know the, the consequences of the mental health of people is just devastating. It's just, it's just, you know, just huge. Yeah, the psychological effects have to be huge. Living through it, not having the information that you need being cut off. And I, I really, you know, you can say you feel it but I know what you mean. It's, you feel distance from the real war but you are in it, you know, and we all recognize that. Yeah, just to add of the information flow, you know, from one hand, so what our every day starts with the first days, I would wake up at around like for a, we barely slept because of anxiety. And because you know, like you're watching all the news, all the news everywhere, what's happening, what's happening.  You are not, you are looking, you are watching your, you know, like, so basically you don't have even a couple of, probably when you are sleeping, that's the only time when you are not, you know, like watching news and not, not, you know, like, seeing what's happening around. That's another thing.  And then, you know, like in this other city. So, yeah, it's just crazy. Yeah, that that state of hyper vigilance, I think is a big part of living through and, and surviving. I think many of us still still cope with that because you wanted to touch on something to also about the information warfare piece, and how it's affecting logically, and what we should sort of take away from the impact on civilians. Yeah, no, I mean, just to reinforce the fact that I mean, unfortunately, that trauma and psychological pressure had started already before the actual start of the, of this invasion. But as if it was happening in a blank sheet, we had documented that civic were produced actually last year report on protection of students and hybrid warfare in Ukraine. And looking at what was the impact of using hybrid warfare and especially information techniques in the context of of Ukraine, and, and actually what came out very strongly was psychological harm as a main consequence for civilians of using information warfare, being, you know, tensions being filled constantly and being exposed to fake news and not knowing where the situation is going to also manipulation of data on children casualties, it was, it was happening before the invasion. And so, indeed, we see this sort of tactics being reinforced like a million times since the beginning of this, of this attack. And, and I can imagine how complicated and at the stress and the trauma it creates or so for, for everybody in Ukraine to have to be confronted on an hourly basis to this is its information, what is happening, is this true, is this not true. And to have to try and double check the information, etc. This is this, I mean, uncertainty on information is always happening in the midst of this very intense conflict but in the context of hybrid and informational warfare it's being demultiplied and that's contributing to emphasizing this. Yeah, this trauma. And just wanted to go back to some of the really important point that Eric mentioned earlier on investigations and challenges. So first I wanted to thank that in cat for the work they are doing it's unvaluable it's very, very important and very useful actually for all of us to try and try and create some of this information. Also mentioning that indeed before this phase of the conflict, OHHR monitoring mission and OSCE SMM were doing really very important work. I understand that that OHHR maybe ramping up their capacity at the moment it's very important work monitoring and investigation in country and let's say finding in country should be supported through any means by international community at the moment. Also, there is there's going to be discussions at the Human Rights Council in 48 hours on creation of a potential inquiry commission independent commission for Ukraine. Let's see what what form and shape it should take but it's that typically, yeah, indeed a context where independent fact finding mission should be supporting input in place in order to document what's happening but also work on accountability going forward. Really key. I want to turn to Ben because I know he has quite a few thoughts on this because we've been soaking in this stuff for quite a while. Yeah, so I wanted to say something just to add to that about these telegram groups that we're monitoring that are all, you know, connected to one way or the other to these these private mercenary groups. They are explicitly saying that they're engaging in info war like they actually will use the term they they think of themselves as being sort of like on the frontline of the info wars. And they are, these are not small groups either right like many of them have tens and some cases hundreds of thousands of followers they're like a major part of how you know Russian speakers are getting their news about this conflict.  So far, like so back in 2014 2015, there was this strategy that some of these mercenary groups employed like so you mentioned usage where they would actually post their own atrocities that they were committing in a way that felt very reminiscent of what ISIS was doing around the same time. And so far, I have not seen that on these major channels they seem to be mostly trying to sort of like paint the the Ukrainian side is like the ones who are who are you know, doing all of the evil. But as you know they move in and particularly if this conflict draws out, you know, I would not be surprised if we see a return to sort of this like terrorizing kind of content that was being posted a lot. You know, back in the origins of this war. I mean, we have one person in particular who's very well known, Igor, Igor Gurkin, who is now, you know, basically tweeting from St. Petersburg and he is of course one of the progenitors of this strategy in this war, dating back to 2013 14. On the one hand, you know, it's important to be able to look into the psychology, the warped psychology of those who are kind of pervading this information more but at the same time, it's a very delicate balance. We are, you know, only 15 minutes out and we have so many questions here I want to make sure we get to the q amp a. First of all, let me just say, you know, important for you Lisa and I can important for the world to understand that there is a lot of passion and emotion and support for Ukraine right now. And I can see it here in the questions. The courage and the bravery of the Ukrainian people has been on display for years but obviously this week in particular, I think has focused the minds of many in the world on sort of like what that actually means and how it manifests and, and I think it has inspired many so I just want to say that note that as many have here in our in our questions. There are a couple things I think that you know to consolidate some of these questions. You know, one of the big questions is, how can people outside of Ukraine civilians just every day folks how can they help to support, you know, protection for civilians at this stage. And I'll turn to you visa and Beatrice, and then then Eric. So, one thing is that huge support that we are seeing and, you know, like I've been working in this humanitarian field for almost 20 years I worked in Iraq in Nigeria and so many countries. And, yes, I was in crisis you know different types of crisis all the time I was in Baghdad in 2013 when there is you know like I could hear these explosions all the time. But it wasn't it was still you know like a bit different right it wasn't your own country behind each explosion you.  You know, like this is the first time when you're I'm going through this and and the amount of messages I personally received from all over the world, you know, like people from Iraq offering me to move there in their safe space right now. I know it's ironic, but this is how you know like this is a new reality that we are having. So that's that's huge. This whole support you know like on a personal level on the country levels, what we are seeing the actual things that the countries finally had their courage to introduce sanctions and different other measures. And private companies were making decisions. Yes, these are huge losses, but this is, this is one of those things or moments when we have to look beyond money. It's just you know like the identity it's a it's a totally new world that will be you know like emerging after after this war. Huge and this is something that adds to people's courage, you know, like to their determination to continue. And, and something that we hope that will just, you know, like the even more and more as we go in terms of assistance I think it's very important what Beatriz already said that you know like to call and to make and I don't know how it would be possible to put more pressure so that these people can be evacuated provided supplies and and all the needed so that they can survive basically they're cut off of basic, you know, like services and food. I think, you know, like it's most probably there won't be, hopefully, you know, like shortage of the items and food that the humanitarian organizations can provide. But the fact that it's very difficult to do it because of the fighting in most of those places so that's something to very important to look at. In terms of protection of civilians what you're doing you know like the investigations and looking into the actual things and informing the whole world about the actual reality because I, I took the courage to have a satellite and tenant to watch the Russian today I could, I could, I could do it only for like 1015 minutes because the reality they are showing I mean this is, it just, you know, like, so they're liberating us from fascism. That's it, that's their narrative. So I think it's really important that other organizations provide proof of what exactly what we, what is the reality what is going in Ukraine and informing the people including Russia. I don't know how to get this information to ordinarily Russians and others, you know, like, but probably there should be something done. Obviously, you know, like, we continue our work on the ground.  I mean, days. But, but we continue we work with our, you know, like civilians that we supported before the war we continue collecting and talking to them to better understand you know like their needs and trying to channel them to their own organizations. And, and hopefully, you know, like at some point when it this whole thing stops we can be will be in a good position to have a really thorough analysis and make sure that you know like in the future, nothing. I mean, at least some of these things don't happen again. Some lessons. Beatrice, I'll turn to you and then Eric just briefly what what is needed right now to help with the civilian protection mission. Yeah, thank you Candice I mean Lisa said a lot already and it's a very, very hard question. But I would say the, of course, the top priority at the moment is survival and physical security. So, well, Lizette said it all in terms of safe passage and corridors and, and, and the other top priority which goes with survival is humanitarian supplies as I mentioned. And just going forward I wanted to reemphasize maybe to I mean just to mention two points, I think the risk. So today, we've seen that all of us as you know humanitarian actors we've been going through the sideration first the first day is trying to just care for the safety and security of our staff and progressively let's say since Sunday probably Monday. The humanitarian community is trying to kind of get back to coordinating and scaling up ramping up especially that there are humanitarian needs that can be addressed in host communities in Ukraine but also out of Ukraine in neighboring countries. The paradox and the challenge that the assistance can be available in those areas but cannot be available in the other area where we cannot step foot outside at the moment and when I say we it's not only civics. Literally everybody apart from very, very few occasions where some of us, you know, I NGOs we can put a step out. And the way who is responding it's the military civil administration, the state emergency services. So I think, very immediately, the very next steps at the tactical level so to say for the ground level for us is going to be how can we support this efforts because these are the ones which who are the responders today. And, and it's going to be to try and tune into their network and their needs and their, their capacity gaps at the moment and and support them the best that we can. Yeah, I mean I was as you were thinking as you were talking I was thinking about President Zelensky's, you know, kind of Trichelian moment you know I don't need to ride any ammunition but we also clearly need something more than just ammunition at this stage. We're moving into a different phase of the war. We need, you know, supplies medical supplies we need food we need, you know warm clothing we need this kind of assistance and it needs to come now. I also want to, you know, raise an issue just as one of the few people of color out here who's actually like reporting in crisis zones around the world. I think that there are a lot of Africans and Middle Easterners who have, you know, traveled to Ukraine to go to university, and because it is a wonderful educational system there. And so many resources available people from all over the world. I remember that very distinctly spending time in Kiev, how many Nigerians and Sudanese and Somalis and now here they are struggling to get out at the border. And they're being turned away or being pushed to the macro the line as if they were not human beings. So just want to point out that there's this kind of strange dichotomy that we find ourselves and yet again, when it comes to European policies on on refugees and asylees, and that needs to change immediately as well. Eric, there's a question here. I'll turn to you on this. You know, we have, you know, as we were mentioned before we've seen this movie before in Afghanistan Iraq Syria. What, and we've also seen even, you know, during the most recent phase of the conflict and done boss before the invasion. We've seen foreign fighters come in and kind of change the calculus on the ground. And we, and we know that Russia likes to use that oftentimes as a kind of as a justification for even more cruelty in the battlefield. What do you anticipate Eric, in terms of that. Do you mean foreign fighters coming to fight inside of Ukraine. Yes. I want to say because there's been a huge influx of people interested in coming to fight on the side of Ukraine and we saw this and obviously in 2014. But a lot of them, they, the only places for them to join or the far right groups like right sector ourselves, the ones that everyone knows about C 14. And, you know, some of these people who are joining were, you know, far right, you know, at fascist my supremacist whatever who fit in relatively nicely with some of the more fringe elements within those groups but other people were just people who, you know, were veterans who just, I don't know who just like to fight for whatever reason. Yeah, so it's a it's a mixed group. Now the group you're seeing the similar thing right now. The thing is, Ukraine is taking everyone in and they're not, you know, coordinating them off into these more fringe groups that are just right, you know, down in the middle by Mariupol and stuff like before, like in 2014 and 15. So, yeah, it's it's fascinating to see how I mean fascinating in the most terrible way of how Russia could respond to these things because you've seen how they've responded to, you know, Western weaponry and the initial stuff coming in and just saying the entire, you know, the entire country is Western and NATO because they get you know bullets from Bulgaria, or, you know, guns from Lithuania or whatever. And there are a lot of fighters coming in from all over. There have been some very unconfirmed very shady reports about American far right groups sending people in. Though I think a lot of that is just kind of big talk rather than follow through they'll probably some people will come through right but for every 100 proud boy proud boy who talks about going to fight in Ukraine maybe one will actually go through.  And a lot of people coming over and but even more so I think it's maybe more interesting as you're hearing tons and tons reports about you, Ukrainian expats who are coming back home to take up into fight you hear a million anecdotal stories online and I've heard myself from, you know, people who are working in Poland or the UK or Spain or whatever and then they just they're just leaving there's dropping everything and they're going back home to fight. And people coming in the fight aren't just foreign fighters, you know, either the kind of the wacko weirdos who are coming to fight to maybe we're previously fighting in Syria, you know, who knows what they have going on back home. The red relatively normal again relatively is doing a lot of work because if you're going to fight abroad you're, you're kind of a strange person probably one way or the other, like the French Legion that sort of thing. You know, people just coming home, fighting, either people who are Ukrainian or have Ukrainian heritage. And that's probably those people probably outnumber the foreign fighters who were coming in. So it's worth thinking about those as well. So, could this be uses justification for, you know, more cruelty and more targeting of civilian infrastructure and all that. I mean, maybe, I mean Russia doesn't really need an excuse to do that they're going to do it and then make up an excuse afterwards right so I don't think that I don't think that what they're doing there really matters because they're going to do what they're going to do, and they'll, you know, make up a reason later to justify it if it's not this it'll be something else. But, but now it'll it'll be interesting to see exactly who actually makes it over there and how, and how Ukraine organizes these influx of fighters whether it's, you know, 100 or 1000, or if you count in people coming home for expats, 10s of thousands. Just note on the Russian side, you know, this is, I guess, we tend to sort of monitor the other side of the white supremacist movements, where we've been looking at the Russian imperial movement the Legion, the partisan, the russage, etc, etc. You know, the nexus between these organizations, and Adam Waffen division is very well known. The base as well, obviously, you know, Ronaldo, Zara, still in St. Petersburg as far as we know, potentially, potentially maybe he's made a decision to join the Ukraine. So what's, what's interesting about this I think is, you have kind of ethnic motivations of all kinds that are drawing people in. That are drawing people into the conflict, and weirdly sort of unlike Syria, or, you know, or even Afghanistan where you have foreign fighters. You see a lot more empathy from Europeans from Americans for those folks who are joining the fray I was born and raised in Chicago, lived in Ukrainian village. I can imagine now the conversations that are going on there and the tough choices that people are also making, because many people still have you know family ties and it's it's a difficult situation that I think we find ourselves in. Unfortunately, we are at time. There is probably like a million more things we could discuss right now. And I know that we will be having this conversation again. First, let me just thank Lisa one more time. Thank you for staying with us for being with us for your courage. I love Ukraine. Let's hope for better days ahead. And thank you, Eric, Ben Beatrice for being with us and thank you to the audience. You're very thoughtful questions. I'm afraid to say it but we probably will be back here again. And we'll see you soon. Thanks.