Hello and welcome to today's business skills webcast, the creative thinking sandpit. My name is Sarah Gonzalez and I'm from Redback Conferencing. Today we're joined by John Pastorelli and we're going to discuss this sandpit which a lot of people have been talking about recently and I think a key challenge for business in this world is to maintain relevance within an increasing complex world. So creative thinking is a major key in enabling businesses to differentiate create options and alternatives that will improve economic return. So without any further ado I'd like to welcome our presenter for today, John. How are you? I'm well serious. Great. Thanks for having you here. Oh no it's great great to be here. Great. So first of all you've launched a book and this is where it's all come about and it's all unfolded and it's yet to be launched. It's probably a week or two away. It's not too far away. And so what was your motivation to write a book on creative thinking? Where did it all begin? I could probably say as a kid. Yeah. I've always loved creative thinking. I've always had an enthusiasm around creative thinking as a kid. We used to build pushbikes, we used to build surfboards etc. And as I carry that enthusiasm through and I believe it's something that's an essential skill within business today and I believe it's an essential skill from a process perspective in terms of being able to create things that are easier or faster or more efficient. We're always looking to create options to improve our current situation and that's where creative thinking has a has a role to play. But I also think that creative thinking is a it's just a innate essence within us as people. We love creating. Yeah. We love having an aspiration and then creating a pathway to achieve that aspiration. I think we're going to get a bit of a buzz out of that. So there's a few and I guess the other one that I'm quite passionate about at the moment is that I believe we as individuals and also business have a responsibility to really enrich and enhance our creative thinking skills because we're living in a world where things are changing the way they are changing as we all know. It's a rapid change but I think it's something that we need to embrace. We need to then be able to adapt to, to be nimble in a phrase that I like to refer to as thinking on your feet is the new desk work and that element of then business empowering us to be in that space then I guess minimizes the risk that we might become a bit obsolete when the as we've got this roboticized world coming and systemized and technology enhanced etc.  So you touched on the word skill and I'm interested because I've always had this thought and correct me if I'm wrong that creativity is something that you're maybe born with it's something you know we usually associate with a lot of artists or people within more communication sort of fields like if you're an accountant can you learn to be creative or does everyone have it in them or is it a skill that we learn I just want to set the scene there. I think I my firm belief and after many, many, many sessions facilitating creative thinking workshops and programs everyone is creative everyone. Some people might be might have a bit more of an innate or innate ability around creative thinking yet I guess the example that I like to refer to now and again is that I've got some friends who were single parents and to me they're quite creative if you follow them and you track those people over a week and what they get up to to manage their time and competing in priorities in that week they're quite creative but they might step back and go well I'm not creative and they just get into a session they go I'm not creative and it's like well actually once you start to look at that you are and so I believe everyone is creative and whether it's a skill it is a skill in terms of it's a process you could apply to a particular situation but I think it's also something that is an innate kind of quality within us and I'm thinking my two young kids and they're quite creative and they've been quite creative from an early age and I think kids get they love that thing they step into and actually just on that there's some research that was conducted that they actually track some people over 40 years and they measured their various rates or the various levels of intelligence and they started around the age of four and they tracked this at about 100% they thought at that age it was about 96, 98% capacity within these different intelligences that they're measuring by the time they got into their teens and then eventually they got into their 40s that intelligence had gone down to about 4%. Wow. So the other 96% where is it? It's still there. We just need to work on it. Yeah, exactly. So it's still there. Absolutely. So there you go everyone. That's a great way to start a webcast because it means everyone can stay online and everyone is going to learn something today. So let's get straight into it. What you know, speaking of kids, what is this creative thinking Sandpit? How does it all work? The Sandpit is a the best way to describe it is a safe, practical, purposeful and playful space. And and it's a space that it's come about when I was running a lot of creative thinking sessions and creative thinking programs. What I was finding is getting back to what you mentioned before about are we all creative or is it only it's like a few. And what I was finding is that everyone is creative in their own way. What we needed was a space that people could almost step into and take some certain principles and some certain techniques with them into that space and then realize that creativity that they had. And so that that space, if you like become the creative thinking Sandpit and what works for me what what I believe were the key elements that that help people realize that creative thinking talent is the sense of playfulness. Get in there just have it go give it a crack as we like to say. Language of yes and there's another language or another phrase that we'd like to work with. There's a sense of also purpose that it's very easy to create ideas and given that within a business context, we need to have ideas that add value. Then there needs to be a sense of purpose around the creative thinking Sandpit as well. And it needs to be practical. It needs to be something that you can then take away and then start to apply. So and I think the other one that I mentioned there about safety is probably the key people need to feel safe. And once they feel safe, they're willing to explore and they're willing to to have a bit of fun and and and really enjoy the process. And that's why the Sandpit because it just seemed to work for people in terms of letting go of some of those myths that we talked about and stepping into this this place of possibility. Yeah, that's very interesting. And so how is this different from this parking bay? What's that all about? Well the parking bay element that's that's part of part of the Sandpit because one of the things with the Sandpit is that we honor all contributions. Because one of the things is that when if I'm in a let's say I'm in a traditional brainstorming session where I've been in quite a few times and and I might put up my hand and I go look I've got this great idea and someone goes well and it's an idea that is almost negative. Then what can happen is you're like look we're in a positive space. We're in a creative space. Let's just let's just forget about that. Let's stay positive. And what we in the Sandpit go what that's sensational. Let's work with that and then we park that. We don't dismiss it. We park it because there's a number of techniques in the Sandpit that actually bring those back into play because what we do at the Sandpit it's very resourceful as we'll see it later. It has to be we're spending time in there. We're creating ideas. We need to be resourceful around the ideas that we create. And so if someone puts up an idea one is we need to honor that because they've made a contribution. And I believe the best way to honor that in that in that creative context is let's park it and let's see how we can use it later on. So it's not a question of let's dismiss it or it's wrong. It's more a question of not quite useful just yet. But we might make it useful later on. So in the work that you do then because that really just resonated with me and I think a lot of us and even people who have registered to join today throughout the registration process. A lot of it is OK. You're in this environment. You have those people and automatically we don't know how to react.  So I think what's you know in your experience is something that we all struggle with and we can all be better at. I guess I believe yes. And even outside of the creativity domain is the if I answer that with a slight slight tangent in that whenever we're in a situation where we might feel that we're threatened or it might be a bit of anxie. A bit of a frustrated space or someone feels like they might be coming at us and maybe having a having a go if you like. What tends to happen is we can become a bit defensive. And I believe then that starts to compromise our ability to understand and Stephen Covey. I mean the other late Stephen Covey mentioned that about the thing about let's seek to understand first. And that essence of creative thinking and the essence of working with questions really helps us get a greater understanding there. So rather than become defensive and what I call positional. Let's just go what. Well let's relax a bit and find out where this person is coming from. Let's ask questions and likewise then pulling back to the the sandpit and the idea about someone proposing an idea. Then rather than just going I look let's dismiss that. Let's just go how can we work with that. What else can we do. What other way can we frame or what other way can we then look at a perspective of that particular idea that might be useful. And so that that essence of momentum that that essence of creating journey for a particular situation is what's so important. I think not just in creative thinking but I think in everyday life. Well yeah you could use apply that to so many different situations couldn't you. And if anyone does have any questions just on the sandpit before we go into the next section or any questions maybe situations that you've experienced recently feel free to type in the chat box and we'll get back to them. So that seems like one different aspect of brainstorming that people aren't familiar with. So how else is this creative thinking sandpit different from a traditional brainstorming session. There's there's a slide at the moment that we're looking at the comfort stretch and stress zone. And the if we overlay the sandpit onto that particular slide for me the sandpit is almost that stretch zone. Yep. And we what we're doing with the the sandpit versus a brainstorming session is that we are deliberately looking at creating a space. We are deliberately looking at taking with us certain principles. We are being more resourceful i.e. we are not dismissing any ideas. We're looking to bring them into the process. And I believe with with brainstorming sessions that I've been involved in is that we don't spend as much time on the initial desired outcome. What do we want from this. And so we we actually go into that stretch zone much earlier with the with the creative thinking sandpit versus a traditional brainstorming session. And one of the things we often do with with with with creative thinking sessions go OK. What do we want from this. What's our desired outcome. And someone might go well we want to increase productivity. And then we'll say OK well let's create three other statements around that. So three other statements around what that means for you. And it's like so we've got that we want to create. We want to increase productivity. Then there's one statement number two statement number three statement number four. And just by doing that something we go well actually hang on. I think four is closer to the mark. So we're already thinking in that creative space before we actually start addressing the particular scenario. So and that's something that with creative thinking and the crowd thinking sample is that also it's a it's a I guess a philosophy that we like to take outside of that particular domain. Let's say working towards this increasing productivity or increasing motivation in staff whatever that particular focus area is. And we'd like to take that and apply that in other parts of what we do. So whereas brainstorming is sometimes seen as just project based or just issue based. The sandpit tends to have a bit more of a journey beyond. It's like an attitude. And I can't tell you how many sessions I've been in where we're brainstorming or just having a meeting for meeting. Can you walk out. It's like when I actually get from that. And it's actually. So in terms of takeaways and I think it's good just to give people online some actionable takeaways. Would you recommend having. I feel like a lot of people have meetings. OK. Let's have a meeting. Let's talk about that. Let's brainstorm that having less of those and putting time aside for these creative thinking sandpits maybe on a weekly or fortnightly basis as an organization. Do you think they need to happen less often. But they're bigger sessions. I guess it depends on exactly what you just said there is sometimes there's a meeting for meeting sake that some people that's the way they think they think in that meeting mode. And sometimes they are extremely useful. Sometimes the efficiency can be can be increased. And yes. I believe you can layer a meeting with a creative thinking sandpit framework or a particular attitude around that. And what you just mentioned there is so important in that we spend time at the start in terms of what do we want from this meeting or what do we want from this session. Then we generate some ideas and some ways forward. But then at the end it's really important to check in. Yes. And check back and what you mentioned. What are the takeaways. What did we get from this. What are we going to do from this point on. What are we going to commit to. How are we going to be accountable. How are we going to actually measure and evaluate from this point on. So what you mentioned there is so important in I think it's not just in creative thinking but I think in projects and team meetings as well. Yeah. So as an organization or as someone running these meetings or as you know it's my idea. OK everyone this is something we're going to implement next year. I bring people in. You're obviously not going to have everyone on board. Am I right. What about those people who are reluctant to maybe get involved or aren't talking to one another and we can't all be facilitators and encourage that. So what are you what are your thoughts around you know bringing in traditional these sand pits and then having people who aren't really on board with them. How do you get people. How do you get the buying. There's a there's a number of ways there. There's I spend time with people individually and what's important to them. And a sense of why are they there. What can they contribute. There's depending on the session to is I I'm some of the questions I ask at the start of a session are quite important. And if I'm getting a sense that people need a bit more of a motivational surge if I'm motivational nudge to be involved. Then I'll frame the questions around that and but I think it's really a question of getting to know why those people are there. And also sometimes the people shut down for a whole range of reasons. It could because they feel they're not creative. It could be because they feel they can't contribute or maybe they're a little bit scared or a little bit anxious because they might be they might have their boss there. And so I've got to put on my most appropriate face or most appropriate behavior. And the thing when we're and that's what I like about the sample is that where we've got an accepted norm when we go into the sample of the way of behaving and a way of actually undertaking the activity. And so that helps relax people in terms of if they might not necessarily buy into the process. And sometimes also people just might not want to participate. And so with the sample there's we we actually do both individual and group based techniques. So there's individual based techniques where people actually are involved on an individual basis that are quite easy. They can contribute ideas and then they get fed into the main group session. And that often elicits buyback from those people and encourages that sorry buyback buy in encourages that that that involvement as well because I go that was my idea and they're taking that now and they're using sensational. Yeah. And potentially that might not have happened if they didn't have that opportunity to contribute initially first and then that become part of the group process. Yeah. Just a little quick little story when I was doing some work up in Queensland I was up in regional Queensland and I walked into this it was a shed. It was hard to use would have been about high 30s late 40s was quite hard. It was corrugated shed and I was running a session up there and remote Queensland. And I had nine blokes beard blokes like this. Come on monkey. Give us your best. Yeah. It's like I just I walked in. I had these nine guys looking at me going. Just like come on and just like this. And it was just the that essence of touching base what's a value to them. Why how can I make this valuable to them and a relevance to them and make we end up having this great barbecue at lunchtime. Really sensational. Sometimes you just got to ask people exactly. Exactly. It's going back to that thing we mentioned before. It's just let me try and understand where these people are coming from and find out and then how do I tailor what I've got to make it relevant for them. So it's a value to them. So that's being creative. Exactly. It's almost like a psychological thing that you need to tap into. Yeah. Okay. So what about principles key principles of the Sam Pete. All right. So the and I think this is where when you mentioned before about the the people taking this and applying it some of these principles just by applying the principles you can actually engage in an increased level of creative thinking. So one of the principles that I like to to and I buy by is the idea about continuous learning. It's it's shared a shared out there a fair bit about ongoing learning and lifelong learning and life wide learning and life deep learning and this essence about learning and a good mate of mine Andrew Hall. He captured this in this particular slide at the moment in creative mates. Yeah. And it's just like this essence of Leonardo da Vinci. He was always learning the greats always learnt. They continually learnt and stretched and I think that's us as a human species. We like to look and grow and and look at things and how can we change the current situation and Leonardo was a great example of that. So I think that essence of continually learning continuously stepping into that stretch that I mentioned before and because in the comfort zone you go you basically the comfort zone is your you're doing what you've always done. So thereby you'll get what you've always got is the comfort zone. It's pretty simple. The stretch zone though is that essence of where we can start to what else can I learn. What else can I try. How else can I do this. And that's where the essence of safety comes into play and allowing yourself to do that. And the other thing I've got to mention before Sarah was the stretch the stress zone that red zone. Yeah. And I think it's really important that we manage people into the stretch zone. But then there's what I call that line in the sand where you just don't want to push people too far that they potentially could be harmed. And it's never happened because I think we're quite respectful when we do go into that stretch zone and we respect people respect the feedback we respect where people are at. And so the learning it takes place in that stretch zone. That's that's that's what it is. So another principle as well with around the creative thinking sample is the essence of curiosity. And the Albert Einstein another great thinker. And I love the quote that he says you know like it's he's got no special talents. He's just passionate to passionately curious. And I think if we take anything from this essence of creative thinking is that encouragement to be curious to explore to experiment. There's also that essence of another principle of just try and give it a go. And there's a there's a movement within the business world. It's like around around accepting failure and not stigmatizing failure. And there's a book just recently published around that failure is a good option because if you if you spend too long trying to get the project perfect the market's just gone past. So you need to get it into market. You need to get it in there and be nimble enough to adjust while it's in market. And there's a there's a little quote that I like to work to it says that rather than wait till 10 to 10 before you or 10 out of 10 before your project is implemented implemented. So it gets to 10 out of 10. I remember the first time I heard something like that. And I think it was from my corporate coach. You know, sometimes 80 percent is good enough to learn. And I'm just like, no, it was almost like a week of just like thinking, oh God, and trying to be creative thinking about how do I get around this problem? Because why would you do that? And how does that work? But then once you actually settle on it, it's such a beautiful idea. And I think like you said this movement and the introduction of startup cultures and entrepreneurial organizations. And I feel like some of the big corporates or maybe really large government organizations who aren't that nimble and can't change that quickly. Do you think they are going to get left behind if they don't sort of implement this sort of way of thinking? Well, I just want to just one point. I just I just I think it's contextual. This idea about the 80 percent because I don't want a brain surgeon to work on it. Because I just just to kind of clarify. I mean, I'm not saving lives, John. Sometimes it's kind of contextual. And I think and I think where they sometimes get left behind if you if you're looking at some of these big organizations is they they get left behind in the motivation of their staff because they are they're a little bit bureaucratic, a little bit heavy, just a little bit slow. And the staff are wanting to get on with it. And and consequently, staff start to lose in motivation. They start to lose in buying. They start to the latest survey of engagement people who engage in the workplaces. I think it's around 30 percent that people are actively engaged. And I think a number of those would probably be from some of those organizations because they they're just finding it hard. And and so I think that's where companies and organizations will start to lose that talent and they'll be they'll be going on and looking elsewhere. So that's one of the areas that they might be yeah, I'll be suffering from. And then from the other side from a management perspective, there's so many things that we need to be implementing now in order to make people happy. You know, this is it's not an easy one to implement. So how do you encourage change with this sort of behavior in the workplace and get everyone once again on board but for a more high level? I think one of the key things with the with the Sam Pit is I mentioned before about that being a purposeful space and purpose and meaning are becoming a much stronger and a much deeper motivator for people. What's what are we about? And so Simon Sinek who wrote the book on why and has a lovely Ted talk on why he talks about we've got to get to the why. Yeah. And I think that same essence of why and purpose is what the Sam Pit encourages and in what we do in that we've got to touch base with that that essence of meaning that we as a individual what matters to me that matters to you that matters to someone else that then matters to that entity that then many that matters to the market we're in having that alignment is I think really key to that to that aspect of working with creative thinking. And so being creative in how we actually understand those different layers that we have the different perspectives that we have. And then picking the one that gets all that one there seems to marry with that one that one. And so based on that we have this this unity that then marries into this other aspect. And we need to encourage ourselves getting back to Albert Einstein's about the curiosity. We need to have that so that we can find out about those different perspectives the different layers the different essences that we have that we can bring them together and unify. And yeah, it can be quite challenging. You know, I've managed I remember managing a team going way back when I was a bridge climb when I part of the startup team for the bridge climb over the city harbour bridge and pulling that team together for the original launch there. And some of those guys were there was such a mix of people that just amazing mix of the original climb leaders. And yet they gave their absolute all to that to that to that enterprise. And because they were all driven by that common purpose they wanted to create this every climate every climate experience on the bridge. And that regardless of where they came from that united them. And then once they not moved on but once they kind of went away from that role and they're up the road and they're at a party then obviously there's other elements of themselves that came out as well. So I think, you know, that's that's one of the important things with creative thinking and that mindset around creative thinking is finding out more about what's going on. Yeah. And I think, you know, like one of the things I just wanted to share another element. In that the kind of relates to this and that is that sometimes we look for the shiny object or sometimes we look for the gem or sometimes we look for that that first impression. And like if I was to ask people to to to read those numbers, you know, one plus one equals two, one plus three equals four, two plus three equals six, three plus four equals seven, what generally happens is I go, what do you notice about that? And most people 90% would go, Oh, two plus three doesn't equal six and equals five. And it's like straight away that's where the focus is. Versus there's so much more there that could draw our attention. And so sometimes using that same principle, sometimes it's the shiny object that draws us, but we need to go beyond that. We need to find out what else is available beyond that and create more ideas or look at other perspectives to to to to find out a greater depth and greater opportunity. Now I'm trying to figure out what else is interesting about that. Well, how do you do that? Because while you're doing that, I'll just this is that this is to extend on that is this assessment, the the the mind map, most people are aware of Tony Bazan's work around mind maps where you have a central idea in the middle and then different ideas off the edge. With the creative thinking sample, what we're looking at doing is we, we create that that initial idea and then we nominate a number generally between four and six. And we have to create that number of ideas around that middle circle. So in this one with motivation, we've got the four initial ideas, rewards, team, individual and intrinsic. And then off one of those, we then create another four and then another four, another four, another four. So for for this particular slide, I've just left up there that intrinsic has social family purpose and development. So let's say this was based around how do we increase the motivation of our teams or motivation around teams in the workplace? Then those initial four ideas and then another four ideas around intrinsic individual team and rewards. And then what we do is we can then create another four off that again. Yeah, so now where this kind of relates back to that essence of the shiny object and also working and being more resourceful with the sample is that I put all this work into this. I create this, this particular, let's say a particular way forward in terms of how to increase the motivation for staff in the workplace based on this mind map. And then Sarah walks in a month later and goes, John, we need some ideas around service designs. And I go sensational. So all I do now is I go back to that mind map, I cross out motivation and I put service, service designs in there. And suddenly what I've got available to me is all those different provocative perspectives that are kind of, I need to look at now service designs from an individual perspective, intrinsic team rewards. And so I'm being quite resourceful in that I can now use what I've used before in a different context, but also then I could also create my own little mind map around service designs as well, I've got choice. And the thing- But you've still got that context there. Yeah, yeah. So you can play around with it. And that's the thing about we, what we do with creative thinking around that, around that essence of going beyond what we initially create. And this is one simple example for that. Excellent.  Yeah, sure do. Just a quick note as well for everyone online, for those of you interested in finding more out about John's book and when it's actually coming and when everyone can get a hand on it. There's a survey, if you just click on next to the tab in the PowerPoint presentation, just pop your details in there and we'll make sure you get a copy and also give us some feedback as well because we love that. So one thing I also want to touch on, obviously we need to see the value from a business perspective. And we need to see the ROI, how's this going to help us besides making employees more engaged, what is the benefit to an organization by implementing this sort of feedback or framework or changing their ways? Or there's a few different ways. One is around the improving collaboration. So people actually come together and working in a more collaborative space and thereby contributing. And from that there's also some of the other values associated with that is that relaxation of people owning an idea because then it becomes a collaborative idea. So that feeds into that motivational space. There is also that essence of creating and I'll touch on design thinking here because that's where creative thinking is starting to, well, it has got a very strong role to play in design thinking because design thinking is where we tend to be a bit more focused on the aspiration versus the problem. You've got these two motivators, you've got a pull and a push. So what we're trying to do is we've been drawn towards or pulled towards a certain aspiration. How can we create something that has more value for a particular customer? What are the customer's needs at the moment? What are their desires? And then how do we create something for that space? And if you look at that from an example of the classic is obviously the iPhone that came in and disrupted the whole marketplace. And the thing there is that from a creative thinking perspective and a value perspective is that the iPhone, to me the iPhone's not a phone. It's not a phone. It's an entertainment hub. It's a communication hub. It's a resource hub. It's all these things. And so if I, whilst I'm in the frame of thinking of a phone as a phone, I'm somewhat restricted. But as soon as you think in a creative sense from a user perspective or from a context of usability or how it's going to be then served out to a particular audience and what the value is around that, what potentially some of the motive kind of responses might be to that, then we start to think more away from that functionality of that particular object or more away from that kind of essence of the object and to what it can do. And so then I guess there's kind of steps into the whole branding aspect of products. And so the iPhone then, I think why that did so well was because that disruption to the marketplace that suddenly wasn't a phone anymore. It was all these other things. It was convenient to have everything there.  Yeah. And that's where the creative thinking process helps add value. So it brings people together, it gets them creating in a way that has greater relevance for the marketplace. And I think in these days, ideas, you know, I mean, even the accounts you mentioned before, people think accountants are fairly kind of logical which they are and they're systematic, et cetera. But I've met some accountants who are so creative, so incredibly creative because they're trying to think about how potentially for their own processes, how they could help out with improving the efficiencies around that process, but they also need to think on the behalf of the client and they need to help the client. So they need to be creative in terms of helping the client be creative and work around issues. So the value of creativity isn't just in what we do in our process, but it's in the interactions and the relationships we have with other people and how we can help them as well. So there's a whole range of different value. Yeah, different benefit. And I think if I'm just trying to summarize this in my head, would it be accurate to say that, you know, if innovation is the outcome and what we want to achieve, then creative thinking is the how we get there? Yeah, that'd be a good way of saying. It's sometimes I just feel there's a lot of people and innovation has become quite a buzzword and that's what they want to achieve and they, you know, we're innovators and we're doing this and we're disruptive and we're doing this but they don't actually have those creative frameworks in place. Can they get there? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that's the element around because the innovation, sometimes people are a bit scared by that. Oh, it's a big process. And it depends because innovation, implementing an innovative project that let's say someone within an organization has a new innovative way of facilitating lunchtime discussions, just for say, you know, because I know tea rooms and those collaborative spaces now are quite popular. So how do they facilitate that discussion? How do they create some form of focus around those discussions? That to me would be innovative. Yeah. Because they're doing something that adds value to a particular context and creative thinking, as you say, would be a way to get to that point. Yeah, okay, got it. Okay, so just moving forward now, one of the final questions is facilitation. So I understand you do this for a living, which is why you're talking to us and why it sounds fantastic. How can all the rest of us, what are the keys to facilitating these sessions? Because like we touched on earlier, when you do have people in the room who may not be as willing to be forthright or they may not want to collaborate as much as others, what are the keys to facilitating sessions using this framework? I, the principles we spoke about, like so the important thing is that essence of creating, whether it's a real space, like some people have what they call hot room or an ideas room that you step into and there's color paper and pens and music and generally a sense of creativity. Then there's some people just, they might do a creative thinking sample around a particular lunchroom table that might be their creative thinking sample. So however it is that you set the space up, being clear around that space, have that cooperation around that space and the buy-in around that space that you're working within that space and then adopting those principles that we do accept all contributions, we do encourage, we do have that yes and language, we have that sense of playfulness. I think the important thing around around the creative thinking sample as well is that the essence of the language of right and wrong, we don't use right and wrong per se because sometimes there's a negative connotation if I put an idea out there and someone goes, oh, that's wrong. It's like, oh, yeah, it affects our self-esteem. And it's like, it's useful and not yet useful. So we tend to work around those principles. And for just a quick little example where of how the creative thinking sample it was used for a product development was the, and this kind of brings these principles into play. So we had a creative thinking session. The particular company was a manufacturing company for outdoor goods and recreational goods and they wanted a new product line. We're trying to think of some new product line. So, okay, into the sand pit we went, knowing that in the sand pit, the yes and language, et cetera, any of the yes buts, we just park those blocks, we call them, in those parking bay. And then we went, one of the ways to provoke people because what we need to do is not just create many ideas, alongside that, we also need to create different ideas because it's easy to create a lot, it's the different ones. And so as you do that, we use provocative techniques.  And they came up with things like mosquito netting for submarines, ashtrays on motorbikes, et cetera, waterproof teabags. One of those they came up with was shirts, kids' clothing that actually dissolves in the sun when it hits UV light and doesn't just dissolve, it actually burns their skin. And we thought, well, that's pretty useless. So we chose that as the most useless. That's quite sadistic. I know, well, it's, yeah. But it's in the sand pit. It's an idea. And it's in the sand pit. We're allowed to do that. And we went, right, that's too much useless. Now, flip it. How can you create something useful out of that? This clothing that dissolves and burns kids' skin. And when they came up with them, they used the yes and technique. They went, yes and. It's clothing that dissolves. Yes and. What about if it's something else that changes color? Yes and. Like a shirt that changes color. Yes and. Well, versus a shirt, maybe it's something wearable. Yes and. Wearable object that might be something that comes on and off when they're in the sun. Yes and. And then through that process, they come up with a sun alert bracelet that after 20 minutes, it changes color when exposed to UV light as a reminder that you're getting burnt. Wow. Because sometimes, and mainly it was for kids because a reminder for parents.  And you don't realize you're actually getting burnt in that time. And so the sun alert bracelet, and now on the market, there's quite a few of them. There's quite a few of them out there. So I'm converting kids. Yes. There you are. And yes, the burning, the burning dissolving shirt never made it onto market. That's right. Like that. Have you ever had a creative thinking Sandpit in a Sandpit? Have I? Yes, I have. Yeah. And I've had it on the beach and I've had it, I do a lot of work with, yes exactly where we are now. I've had it, I do a lot of work with Australian Aboriginal peoples in communities. So remote areas, I remember this one time we had red earth and our Sandpit was the red earth. And we're on the red earth in, out in the middle of Australia. So, Get people out. Yeah, I've run it in some different places. And like some people use the Sandpit even on the train. I mean, I use it on the train. I commute a lot by public transport. The Sandpit for me is almost that mindset, that attitude that I couldn't take with me wherever I go. That's going to be my, the quote for this, the Sandpit is my frame of mind. My mindset. Well, thank you. That brings us to the end. We don't have any more questions coming through, but I'd like to thank you for joining us today. I'd also like to encourage everyone out there to complete the survey, to provide us with your feedback and to also provide your details so we can let you know of the book that's actually going to be launched shortly. And John, your details are also on there as well. So you're more than happy for people to contact you. Yes, and I've got a free. Oh, yes, and. Yes, and I've got a free, I've got an online course coming up. Yep. An online through Unity. And if that's OK to offer people with free. Yeah, go for it. If they if they send details through yourself, then I'll send you through the code and they can go online for free. And also I was going to when the book is launched, those same people was also if they're interested, send them through a copy of the book. Oh, I might put my name down. Yes, I see. I see how many people are interested, but if there's like a dozen or people or so, then I'll happily send those out. And if not, maybe I'll distribute it amongst it, but definitely look to provide some value. Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for coming on board and joining us. Well, I'm feeling much more creative now, so thank you. It's been a very, very informative, what, 40 minutes. So good to time. Final words to anyone else out there?  And and and you never to I think we always do it. I mean, you mentioned kids before I started with kids. I might finish with kids. I've got two young kids, five and six. And we about every third night, we do made up stories. So we go to the bedroom rather than read stories for that particular night's a made up story. And I asked them what do you want the story to be about? And Chase will come up with a particular topic, Jasmine with another one.  And now where Chase is now writing his own stories at six. And then Jazz is drawing her own stories because she loves art. So she's drawing her own stories. And I think so the creativity that's in it, I think from a child Picasso once said that, you know, like we all start off as childs, but it's had a whole lot of that child in our heart because I think that's where that playfulness and that sense of having fun around creativity. Thinking is where it's at. Excellent. It's who we are as people. Great words of advice. Yeah, thank you. Thank you everyone. And we hope to see you at future events. Bye for now.