Welcome. I am Alison Johnston MSP, the presiding officer of the Scottish Parliament and chair of Scotland's Futures Forum, and I would like to welcome you all to this online edition of the Festival of Politics 2021 in partnership with Scotland's Futures Forum. This afternoon's event is about diversity in the political world, and our partner for this event is the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights, known as CRER. I am especially pleased that CRER has partnered with us, as we are also part of their Black History Month events, films, podcasts and workshops. We are delighted that so many people are able to join us online today, and I look forward to hearing comments and questions from our audience as we get into our discussion. The Scottish Parliament elections in May resulted in our most diverse Parliament yet—a very positive development—but today we are here to drill down and discuss how much progress does this actually signal in a political world that needs to be representative of a Scotland with a 4 per cent minority ethnic population. We should also ask why it took so long, what barriers did our members and panellists here today face, and how do we address this issue of political democracy and diversity? To answer those questions, I am very pleased today to be joined by panellists whom you can read about in more detail on the Festival website, but let me introduce Jatin Harrier, the chief executive of CRER, Co-Cab Stewart, who is an MSP for Glasgow Kelvin and deputy convener of the Education, Children and Young People Committee, and Foisal Choudhury. Foisal is an MSP for Lothian and a member of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. There will be an opportunity for our online audience to put questions and views to the panel throughout the event. If you would like to make a contribution, please enter your question or comment into the question and answer box. Make sure to state your first name and where you are from and we will try to get through as many as we possibly can. However, I would like to begin by asking each of our panellists what is your perception on the state of play with political diversity and representation in Scotland today? I am going to go first to Co-Cab, then Foisal and then Jatin, so may I ask Co-Cab to respond? Thanks, Alison. That is such an important question and I am delighted to be part of this event today. It is good to keep this at the top of the agenda. We have got a bit of a breakthrough. My worry is that if we take the focus off representation of underrepresented groups, we might go backwards. In the past, that has happened when it has come to 50-50 female representatives in elected democratic structures. I think that 21 years have taken me. It was 21 years ago that I was the first woman of colour or the first person of colour to stand for any kind of Parliament. That was the first Scottish Parliament elections, of course, but I am including Westminster there as well. That is progress, but it has taken far too long. As we go on through our discussions today, we will probably come back to some of the multiple barriers that I have certainly faced. I am happy to discuss them today, but also my peer groups as well, many women of colour in particular, but also people of colour. Thank you very much, Cokab. Can I put that question to Foisel? Thank you, Alison. It is an honour for me to be here with you all today. I really just want to echo what Cokab said just now. It is making progress, but yes, there is still some way to go. However, this panel here today could not have been achieved in 2016. I know from my own community that there is much more encouragement and excitement about having a now Bangladesh voice in the Parliament. I can proudly say that we have six of us in the Parliament. As Cokab said, I think that we are making progress, but it is still a long way to go. Thank you very much, Coisel. Can I put that question to Jaten now? What is your perception on the state of play with political diversity and representation in Scotland today? Thank you, Presiding Officer, and thank you to the Festival of Politics for joining us again. It has become a regular event now that we do an event to mark Black History Month. That is fantastic. I think that every other institution should do something to mark Black History Month as well. In terms of the question, echoing what the previous two people have said, it is great. It is great that we have got six BME representatives. It is great that we have got our first two BME women in Parliament. However, as Cokab said, we have got to keep an eye that it is not just a one-off thing, and it is too easy to lose the games that have been made. I think if people are contradicting me, maybe they will, but Coisel and Pam, I think their election was unexpected by some. It has numbers, I will not talk about them personally. Cokab would not have got a seat if Santa White had not been resigning. These games are great, but they are not embedded in the system as yet. It will be embedded in these things. The danger of going backwards is so high. All six are still of South Asian origin. There is still a way to go about other ethnicities being represented in Parliament. At the end of the day, representation is very important, but for us it is about what anti-racist action will be taken by the Parliament. The two things do not always go together. We did some study of 20 years of devolution and how race had been considered. There was far more discussion of race in chamber debates in the first two sessions of Parliament when there were no BME representatives. I am not putting all the focus on BME politicians to make that happen. I think it is up to the parties and the leadership of the parties. It is something to watch out for. Obviously, we will see what happens in the council elections coming up next year, but we need to embed those games into the system somehow, otherwise it is great danger of losing them. Thank you all. The message that we are hearing loud and clear is that progress is not necessarily linear. We cannot take it for granted. We cannot think that this is necessarily the first step towards the truly representative Parliament that we all want to see and that we have to make sure that there is no slippage from now on, that there is only progress. We have a chance to explore how we make sure that that happens. I note what Jatin is saying, that there were more debates on the issue of diversity previously. We must not assume that, because we have a more diverse Parliament, we need to stop debating and discussing it. Can I ask what you see as the barriers in encouraging more Scots from minority ethnic backgrounds to enter the world of politics on a community, council or national level? Can I put that question first to Foisal, then to Jatin and then to Cogacab? Thank you very much, Alison. I would say that racism, cost, networks and prejudice do the institution seems flexible and responsive to change? This is the first time in Scotland that asylum seekers and refugees have been able to vote alongside the rest of the population, and this should be welcomed. Having the vote is a good way of increasing engagement with the Scottish Parliament. It is important that everyone in Scotland sees the Parliament and its MSPs are there for them. I made a promise when I was elected to bring everyone's voice into the Parliament. I have been visiting projects and arranging to do recording when needed and welcoming everyone to come along once we are able to fully use the building again. That has to be truly mean everyone. If you think you are being here, it is more likely you will engage with politics, and that could go on to people playing a role themselves at every level. I think it is engaging with people, bringing them into the Parliament. It is just getting them involved and making them feel that they are here and they are part of us. Thank you. Can I put that question to Jatin, the question of barriers? I would turn that around because I think that parties themselves need to make changes. I do not think there is a lack of interest from minority ethnic people. The only data we have, there is a lack of data about involvement in politics by SNP city generally. For the Scottish parliamentary elections, the SNP was the most open about who it is. There were 21 candidates of minority ethnic origin standing for SNP seats. There did not seem to be any lack of interest or ability because they all went through the wetting system. At the last council elections, if I am right, there were dozens of BME candidates standing as independence. That is the most difficult thing to do to stand at a fossil mentioned cost, etc. Obviously, they found that parties were either not for them or not willing to work with them, so they had to go down the independent route. That is not a way to get elected. We all know that in the main. I do not think that there is a lack of interest out there. There are barriers within parties, and folks will mention racism. Some of the candidates who stood in the last election mentioned racism, not just from people voters but from their own party members and activists. I would turn that around and say that parties need to face up to these challenges. Thank you very much, Jatin. I am co-cab. I would like to hear your views on what the barriers are. Thanks, Alison. The barriers have been multiple and quite profound.  I do sometimes because I see myself as a person who is interested in education and housing. However, people's stereotypes and perceptions of me give me a barrier straight away before I have even spoken. Race inevitably has been. As a woman of Pakistani origin, there have also been cultural barriers there from within my own communities who have found it more acceptable for males to take part in front-line politics and for women to do the background community stuff and supporting quietly rather than actually taking the platform. Gender has inevitably had something to do with it. In the past, what I have found is that people have said, co-cab, I cannot believe that you have not been successful because you are a woman, you are a woman of colour, all those things. However, the reality is that the women seem to think that people from within your own communities will be supporting you and encouraging you and bringing you on. That does not happen because you are a female.  That does not happen, so you fall through the cracks in that sense. There is also a class issue. As Faisal mentioned, having access to networks and certain groups, there may be social occasions that I do not attend because of cultural situations. Therefore, they are excluded from the networks that are already established. I hear what Jatin is saying about the onus being on political parties. The political parties are made up of people from society. I would say that it is incumbent on everybody to check one, possibly their own privilege and to check in their own biases and their own stereotypical views. It is an interesting one with racism that we absolutely know exists. We know that it exists, yet it is difficult to accuse somebody of it or to call it out. We all say that we should call out racism with our policies, procedures, rules that are set by political parties or any other selection body. It is the same in recruitment processes and jobs, where ethnic minorities are also underrepresented in many spheres, including in teaching, especially when it comes to promoted posts. The rules have not been created with input from underrepresented groups. That is what I have found. As soon as I jump through one barrier, one hurdle, another one appears, and the rules of engagement constantly change. I have to say that it is absolutely exhausting to navigate that kind of landscape that you have in front of you. I am very optimistic. I will close my comments here on an optimistic note. People like myself and Faisal, who have been champions of anti-racism, have campaigned quite visibly on it. I hope that addresses a wee bit of what Jatin was saying. It is not enough to be here. You have to be visibly anti-racist and visibly promoting diversity and making sure that the door remains open for the next generation coming through. I am going to put the next question to Jatin, to Faisal and back to Cocab. How important are short lists, photos and selection committees when it comes to political diversity? Extremely important. In a number of seats, whoever the candidate is for a particular party, if that party is in the majority, they will win. The choosing of candidates is even more important than anything else almost. Last time around, not to pick on the SNP, but that is the only party we have any good data for. There were 21 candidates standing, so they passed all that internal vetting, but then it is also about if they are standing on a list where they are on the list, because a lot of people will lower down the list with no chance of winning really. The law is still unclear about whether we can have all-black short lists and things. I have to praise the SNP for taking that action of promoting some of their minority candidates' top-off lists, unfortunately not the willable regions. It goes back to we need parties to have a much more diverse membership to start with, as Cocab is saying. These are made up of individual people of the general public, but we have no data about party membership and ethnicity. Until we get a fair representation in membership, it is going to be hard to get fair representation in selected people, etc. There is a lot more work to be done to make sure political parties represent the people of Scotland. Everything flows from there. We need to make sure that there is fair representation of activists, fair representation of councillors, and fair representation of MSPs. Backroom staff, which are also very important in parties, do we have any data about ethnic origin of party staff? I do not think that we have any. I am going to put it back to parties that they have got to do a lot of this work. At the moment, it does not look like they are really doing as much as they need to do. I ask Foisill that question. How important do you believe that selection committees, quotas and short lists are when it comes to achieving political diversity? Very important. If you look at what Labour party has done with Omens 5050, if there is a quota for others as well, then I think we will achieve that. If you look at the membership list, you will find very few minority people joining the parties. I am not sure about the other parties, but during my election procedures I have seen the membership list, and I know the percentage of our minority people. I think the other thing is that I am not sure why we are reaching out to them. When I was talking to people from the minority background, their voice was that when it comes to decision making, there is hardly anybody, and I think Coca touched on that. When you go into people selecting candidates or making decisions, there is hardly anybody from the minority background. As I said at the beginning, more work has to be done, and everyone and what Justin said, all parties need to look into their policies and we have to find a way. Where we are, I do not think it is good enough. We have to have a quota system. If that is in place, you will get more ethnic minority people. As I said at the beginning, since I was elected, there are a lot more people from the Bangladeshi community who have joined the party. I think that is the way forward. We all who are elected have to talk to people, meet with people and bring them into the Parliament and tell them what MSPs, MPs and councillors do. I can see a big interest in the council election. I am not sure how many will get selected, but time will tell. From our conversation there, I am picking up on the need for an intersectional approach. Let us not just focus on race or gender or class, but let us tackle all of those issues and clearly support from our panellists for affirmative action, for quotas perhaps, for an embedding of action that means that it is not a lottery, that it is not accidental, that we really do everything that we can to promote diversity. I have a question from our audience. This is from Mustac in Leicester. The question is, by all, should Afro-Scottish history be added to the curriculum in schools, and I am going to go to co-cab, then Foisal and then Jatton? Thank you, Alison. To answer that particular question, I think that decolonisation of the curriculum has already started to a certain extent. I applaud the various council local authorities across Scotland that have already taken that on, but we have much, much further to go on that. I have been a teacher for about 30 years, and during that time I have had to actively sort of like seek out alternative histories. For instance, when we have been teaching the war, and when I say the war, sometimes we do the First World War, the Second World War, I am encompassing that. However, the role of people from South Asia, for instance, the contribution of Indians and Pakistanis, Afro-Caribbeans, during that time is totally overlooked. I think that, from a broader level, I absolutely agree that we need to decolonise the curriculum so that we get a more accurate history that is actually more relevant to our youngsters, and they can see their heritage and the essential role that they have played, and their heritage has played in the advancement of the world, really, in that way. I can tell you that children do feel quite invisible, and the reality is that a certain percentage of the class do switch off. When they question it, I often find that, as practitioners, we are not all as confident to look beyond just the narrow curriculum that is put in front of you. However, I am delighted to say that there have been huge improvements, and there are loads of resources that are available that people are tapping into. I totally agree that black history needs to be part of the curriculum. History should be told fully, and children need to be taught. In my previous role as a chair of the Edinburgh and Lothian Regional Equality Council, I have worked very closely with quite a lot of schools, and listening to the students from, I think, a minority background, the stories I have heard were very, very painful, and quite a lot of people were doing stuff, but they were not aware of that they are hurting other people by doing this. For example, if you go to a Muslim girl and pull her his job and say, oh, what's under your scarf? Or if you go to an African person and say, such is here and say, or her here and say, is that how you're born? So there is a lot of things we have to teach our children from the very young age, and I totally agree that that has got to be part of the curriculum. Wales has done that. Why can't we? We should learn from each other, and I think if Wales can do it, we can do it as well in Scotland. Thanks, Faisal. Can I put that question to Jackson, the influence of what we learn in schools on acceptance and boosting diversity in all our public bodies? I agree with the previous two speakers. It's not about acceptance. I'm going to use another phrase which I also don't like using. It's about normalising Black people, looking at the Black presence in Scotland, but also Scotland's role in the world, especially in empire and colonialism. At the end of the day, it's all about challenging racism. That's why we have Black history months, and then hopefully work across the whole year, not just in one month. That's why we're campaigning for a national museum of slavery, empire, colonialism and migration. It is to tackle racism, and I think, as we've all been saying, that is at the root of everything we're trying to do. If we can solve that, and I'm not saying we will solve it in a short or medium term, but then we would have more equal representation and we would have better policies that impact on all people. I hear what Cochab is saying. It's back to the steps that are being made, absolutely. We need to make sure the momentum continues, and it's going to be a long, hard process. It's not something you can do overnight. It's only resourcing. I think that's where government can come in and resource it better. As Foisal said, other places are looking at it as well, so we can learn from them. It's hopefully, again, like we said at the very beginning, hopefully, it's not just slavery of the month for the time being, because it's so high on the agenda just now. Other things will come in, as they always do, so it's the job of everybody to make sure it stays high on the agenda. Thank you, Jatyn. You are quite right. It's not about—I think—when thinking of acceptance, we've become wholly accepting of having parliaments and public bodies in institutions that aren't properly representative. We've got to move away from that. We've got to challenge it constantly, and we need to make sure that it's absolutely normal that all our public bodies and our Parliament—which has a real role to play here in leadership—is an exemplar of what we want to see. We've got to make sure that we're taking every step to achieve that. Can I ask, with regards to steps that we might take, how important you feel that initiatives such as the ERER's work on the political shadowing scheme and the John Smith Centre at Glasgow University on leadership and development project, how important are those projects in encouraging and mentoring Black, Asian and other minority ethnic Scots to step into public service? I'll put that question back to Jatyn in the first instance, and then I'll go to co-cabin Foisel. OK. We've been running a political shadowing scheme before lockdown, mainly for young BME people to clear up the politicians. We saw that as a two-way process. It was partly to get access to networks, as has been mentioned before, to be normalized in the political system, in Parliament, et cetera, et cetera. Also, we thought it would be of benefit to the politicians themselves to learn from the Black people that are shadowing them. I don't know. It may be a lot of politicians.com cross very many BME people in that setting on a day-to-day basis. As I said, I think the staffing of politicians and Parliament and all the party staff, that probably needs further work as well. It's important, but I'll go back to what I said. I don't want to put all the onus on BME people. It is for the politicians and the parties. It would have been great if they had created the scheme, instead of us having to create it, when there was a lack of the BME representation in the total zero representation in the first two Parliaments. Why did nobody think of doing that? We set up the cross-party group on racial equality over 10 years ago. That was on the basis of there was something on golf and fishing, but nothing on race. Again, why did none of the politicians think we better do something? It is, unfortunately, and we know the expense of repeating ourselves, these things are cyclical. Flavoured the month just now. There's a lot of attention to it. It's so easy for it to disappear, and that's the big worry. Thank you, Jatton. Can I put that question to Col Cap? Thanks, Alison. That's a really interesting question for me. I'll draw you parallel through my journey through education. During that, I looked back and undertook about four courses in leadership and management. I was unsuccessful in gaining a promoted post within education. At the time, I obviously thought that something was wrong with me. I'm not doing this right, so you would do another course and try to correct that. I went from not having enough experience to then being told that I actually had too much experience and I may come across as being a bit intimidating. I thought how interesting that I never actually hit that sweet spot in the middle, where I just had the right experience and I was the right match there. It takes me back to the goalposts that are changing. Leading, for example, is very important. I have signed up to take paid intents from underrepresented groups. I think that there is a role in it, but more importantly, what I would like to see is tracking of the people who go through that process. I would like to see tracking and monitoring of their progress. If they go through the course and that's it, then it's job done. It makes everyone feel better. Yes, we've played our part, but what's the impact of that? There has to be more robust impact assessments, tracking and monitoring. Where do these young people or people from any age group—it's taken me 21 years, so it's not just for the young—go on to achieve? If they don't get the posts that they wanted, or to get into elected positions that they were after, or secure that job, what was it that put them off? I don't think that there's enough focus on the tracking and monitoring, so that definitely needs to happen more. I think that the panel is making a very strong case this morning for the need for data, for a real understanding of what is happening. That's certainly something that we can and need to be doing. Can I ask you, Faisal, your views on the importance of schemes such as CRER's work on the political shadowing scheme, for example? I think that this is what needs to be done. I mean, since I was elected, I'm going to go in a bit different line than what Justin and Cook have said, because I don't want to repeat what they've said. I totally agree with what they're saying, but since I've been elected, I've been getting quite a lot of emails from ethnic minority people who wants to go into the parliament and see the work we do to get some work experience, and I think that's the way forward. If the door is open, at the moment, they're really happy to see that six of us is there and they feel that they can get access to us. I don't know how many MSPs or MPs or councillors shadowed an ethnic minority student, because until you take them in, I mean, recently I've had quite a lot of meetings with groups from business community, and whenever I asked that why ethnic minority people are not encouraging their children to go into politics and the answer is that access was blocked to them and they felt that they were only going to be taken in just to fill up the numbers or take the boxes. For example, a couple of them said that they tried to get their kids to join an MP or an MSP for their work experience, which they didn't manage to get. So, since I've been elected, I've had a lot of emails that people want to come into the parliament, and of course my reply was once we are open, I will open the door for them, and I've done it as my role in LREC, and I thought it's working over there, and I'm sure all of my colleagues will take, if anybody applies to be part of them for a week or work experience, and I think that's the way forward. It's absolutely, you know, we cannot leave. I know that your election will be a huge inspiration to many people, but we simply cannot leave it to you to do this work on your own. I think each and every member of this Parliament and beyond has a part to play here. I have a comment from Leanne, and this is Leanne's comment. Racism is something that my children live with on a daily basis. The education system definitely needs to be teaching children about the many cultures our country has.  A lot more of today's racism has come from the generations before, by that I mean the microaggressions that are stereotypically used towards people of colour. I'd be grateful to hear our panel's comments on Leanne's contribution, which is an important one, so can I put that first to co-cab and then to foysal and then to chatting? Thanks, Leanne. What you have said resonates with me completely. I have children who are of mixed race. Some of the comments that have been made to them, I have had to make sure that they are resilient to that, but even as a teacher going into schools to challenge that, I found that difficult. As a relatively empowered parent over the years, I found that tricky. It is the generational thing, but we cannot continue to use that as an excuse. There are so many resources out there. There are so many campaigns out there that you would have to be trying particularly hard to ignore the education that is available to the whole of society to check our attitudes.  There are many traumas that constantly undermine you and you have to navigate that. The robustness that is required is quite astronomical, in that sense. That is not fair amongst other things. I absolutely hear what Leanne is saying. I am certainly doing my best to try and challenge things in a calm, rational manner. The first port of call for me always is that when people demonstrate racist behaviours or attitudes, it is to offer education so that they can change their views. We are all here for that. We are politicians and we try to persuade people towards better things. As an educationalist, I have always tried to educate people as well. The journey continues. Thank you very much, coca. The fact that it has taken you 21 years to get this far is testament to your robustness and resilience, but it is also wholly unacceptable that we expect such levels of robustness and resilience. I am very grateful that you are with us on the panel today and thank you for your response to Leanne's contribution. Can I ask you to address Leanne's remarks, Heusel? Thank you very much, Alison. I totally agree with Leanne. I mentioned on my previous comment that it is very important that we teach children about racism. Sometimes unintentionally, they do not know that they are making a racist remark. That is something that has to be taught from a very young age. Sometimes they say things that they are hurting others and that they do not realise. To me, everyone should respect everyone. It does not matter what colour they are or what religion they are. I remember talking to an Indian person, a Hindu person, a very long time ago, and I said, what would you feel? He said, if I am in the hospital and a nurse comes to me and says to me, I have beef, I should be offended because there should be a Hindu's donate bill or if you go to Muslim and say, I have pork. A lot of things need to be learnt. If you look at every football team or any sports, you will find ethnic minority people.  They forget that they are the people who took them there. I am just going back to the last tennis. There are two females who are representing UK and Canada. On the Twitter, you will see that ethnic minorities are taking over, and black women are representing our nation. As soon as you see these sort of things, they automatically hurt you. I was looking at one of the books in school, a story book. They are talking about sugar cane and all that stuff.   When you see these sort of things, what are children going to learn from those books and those pictures? All those things need to be looked at. Lian, I totally agree with you what you are saying. There is a lot more that needs to be done, and children need to be taught from a very young age. Justin, could I ask you to please respond to Lian's contribution? Yeah, thanks. Lian is 100 per cent right, but I wouldn't want to pass this racism off as a generational thing. We've seen a number of racial incidents in Scottish schools. It's appalling, absolutely appalling. We've seen a lot of attention to Edinburgh schools recently, independent reports and other stuff. That applies across the piece across Scotland. The question is what can we do about it? It isn't just what we can do in schools, because children get their attitudes, etc., from lots of other places as well as schools, from their parents, from society, from television. That's why we need to be tackled across the piece. If we only stick to schools, we might be wasting a lot of their time and effort because then they learn something at school and they learn something different when they go home. That's why it really needs a much more comprehensive response. I'm not saying I've got all the answers, but we need to normalise Black people's presence. Why are there so few Black people in jobs in the public sector in Scotland? It's not normal to see a Black person in a public sector job, and until that changes, people will always see us as different, and that will purchase racism. Back to what we were saying earlier about mentoring and all that, Black people get much better qualifications in the main. Black minority people get better qualifications at school than their white counterparts, but it doesn't need to jobs or even, certainly it doesn't need to better jobs, but often it doesn't need to jobs at all. What's going on? Until we tackle all these things, we've got so few BME teachers, less than 2% of teachers are of BME origin in Scotland, whereas a population is, it should be more like 6% maybe. Again, it's not normal to see a teacher of BME origin in the classroom. That just makes it something that is not a normal situation, and that's the sort of things that we need to tackle. Yes, attention in schools absolutely, decolonising the curriculum absolutely, but we can't look at these things piecemeal. Thank you. Thanks very much, Jack. I've got a question from Susan in Edinburgh. Obviously, the festival of politics has been running since Wednesday, and Susan, who's obviously tuned in to an earlier session, is saying, during the violence against women session on Thursday, the issue of abuse on social media came up. I think that Foisal referred to that in his last response there. What are the panellist views on whether this kind of discourse puts people off coming into public life? I'm going to go to Foisal, then to Jatin and then to coca. I think that I'm a victim of that as well, social media. I think that it's totally unacceptable, and there's got to be more scrutiny that needs to be done. I just recently someone created a fake account with my name and my pictures, etc. When I reported that to the Facebook, I got a reply back saying that it falls in our, you know, so we're not going to remove that. Then I replied again and I said, a person, a picture of me, and a photograph of mine in there, and you're saying it's okay. I think it's totally out of order when people go on and start putting in, I think the government needs to look into this, and there's got to be a guideline to all the social media providers that whoever opens an account, sometimes quite a lot of accounts people create, you don't even know who they are, and nowadays you see Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, and so on.  Nobody should face these sort of things, and as I did say that during the football time when England lost it's seen how badly social media attacked the black players, and the same goes for all of us, and I don't think that none of us deserve bad comments for no reason on social media. Thank you, Faisal. I'd be interested to hear Jatin's comments on social media and how it can put people off engaging. I don't really have much more to add to what Faisal said earlier, obviously it would put some people off, but we can't let that be used an excuse, not to take action on other things. I think Hamza uses Faisal's profile in terms of negative, not negative, but abusive social media aimed at him, but Coco and Faisal are relatively new, and I'm sure they're going to suffer their share of that. It's a wider problem than just this, and Faisal's right, social media companies. I'm not sure what the answers are necessarily, but again, people use it not just on race grounds, but on gender, obviously, so that example has faced the most horrendous abuse on social media. In the last week, once again, we had this should politics be a much more nicer arena, but again, these things are significant. We've had it before, but we've had it with Joe Cox. We've had it again now. Things will slip again. We'll come back to it again. Something long-term, something strategic, something meaningful about all these things. We shouldn't look at one thing on its own, because it's all part of the same problem at the end of the day. I put that question to Coco, but it's Susan, who is asking for views on whether some of the discourse that we see on social media puts people off coming into public life. Thanks, Susan, for that question. I think that, generally speaking, politics needs to be a kinder, more respectful place. I totally get that it's party political, but I also fully recognise that it is not beyond us. We're all articulate, very passionate people who can put our views across in a respectful and robust manner without being offensive, abusive or aggressive in any way. I think that that is a lesson in leadership, and we are all in positions of leadership. Children are watching us, society is watching us, so the Scottish Parliament has a role to play in how we conduct ourselves, and we should be doing that professionally and respectfully. I think that the abuse has always been there, because I've got such a long history in campaigning. It was quite avert on the street. I've been called names, I've had my leaflets ripped up, I've even had people say, don't put your photograph on a leaflet because people will be able to tell that you're a different colour and they won't vote for you. At polling stations, I've had people saying, now remember and vote for the candidate who was born in this country. I actually wasn't, but they are making an assumption that I wasn't. Many of my generation ethnic minorities were born here. That can happen over name calling. It didn't take, I think, about a week before I got my first quite overtly offensive letter, which was handwritten. A lot of effort went into that and was delivered. The sad thing is that it was actually my staff that read it who were quite traumatised by reading such offensive content. It was directly challenging my right to be an elected representative, that a person like me of colour should not be elected and did not speak for the people of Scotland. I won't go into the other more offensive content that was in there. Social media amplifies it. The danger of social media is that it encourages pylons. It spreads rapidly. People tweet, they retweet on Facebook, people put their comments in, they can share. Absolutely, there is a role for regulatory bodies. Definitely, I think that there should be more regulation and responsibility taken by those platforms. Ultimately, it is also about our own behaviours. People say all sorts of things on social media.  It is in that kind of self-discipline and self-filtering that social media seems to go out the window. That is a real shame. Social media has a very important role to play and can be a great force for good as well. It is again about education, about challenging your own assumptions, thinking before you make that offensive tweet, what you are trying to achieve and is that the best way to achieve it. It is questioning yourself. Does it put people off? Absolutely, it does. If you come from an already marginalised group, if you are already underrepresented, if you are already invisible and silenced and not listened to, you will be put off doing that. It is up to all of us to make sure that we build people's confidence and, unfortunately, to take advantage of the training courses that are there for us as parliamentarians to help us cope with online abuse. I think that, with people being at home a lot more during the Covid crisis, we are still in it. A lot of people took to social media and ended up in echo chambers. It has become quite toxic, I have to say. A measured, sensible use of it and switching it off regularly helps to keep you sane. I have a question from Daniel. Daniel is asking, how are our vibrant black and minority ethnic communities contributing to discussions on the big social issues of the day, such as assisted dying, for example? Can I put that to Jatten and then to Foisal and then to Coca? I do not know the answer to that. I would assume the variety of views on assisted dying, for example, is similar in BME 20s, as it is in white 20s. I do not think it is a racial angle that I can obviously see to it. I think it will be an inflection of wider society. That applies to a host of social issues. It is really good to see that we have got BME representatives from a variety of political parties in parliament. It is not just one party or two parties on the left, for example. So, BME 20s are as varied as anybody else. That is how it should be. Thank you very much. Over to Foisal. Thank you. Carry on, Foisal. Thank you very much, Alison. I was hoping that you were going to cook up before me on that one, but obviously I do have a conflict of interest in here because if I talk it, I am a Muslim person. And if I bring in my religious aspect to that and what Jatten said, if it becomes a community issue, then my answer will be different than what presentation I am hearing. But then again, this is one chapter I really didn't want to get involved in being a new MSP. Sometimes I find it very difficult when it comes to, of course, we are part of that. I am willing to listen to people, but when it comes to a religious aspect of that is that to me, if I ask that to my dad or my mum or if I go to Hindemundir and speak to anybody, I think all will give me the answer that death is not in the hands of yourself. So, to me, this is something very, and I am looking at it very closely. I am listening at it very closely, and I think it should be more talked about, more debated. As I said, I do have conflict of interest in here with my religious hat on. Thank you very much, Faisal. These are complex issues and Parliament will have an opportunity, I am sure, to discuss them in due course. I will put that question to co-cab too. I think it is a question just about how those issues of public debate are debated more generally, how they are discussed. Yes, Alison, I agree with that. It is important to recognise that, as I alluded to it earlier, that yes, we are interested in racism because we have to be, but believe you me, I would rather not be talking about racism and not be talking about equality issues all the time. I know that BAME communities are just as opinionated on all the social issues of the day. Certainly, in my constituency, housing is a big issue. Transport is a big issue. Business, local businesses and their experiences are enormous issues. I think that, in the usual way of community activism, discussions start in a safe space. That tends to be local community groups where people get together, share their views and use online platforms and chat rooms and social media to discuss them. I make every effort to ensure that elected representatives at all levels council, MSP and MPs reach out to those communities to hear their views, rather than making assumptions about what those views are, but to listen meaningfully and to engage in that debate. The other thing that I try to do is, I know that the Scottish Parliament has various consultations that take place that the Scottish Government undertakes public consultations. You signpost people to make sure that they are taking part by clicking on the website or getting in touch with relevant people and making sure that their views are there. Of course, we will only do that by making sure that the Scottish Parliament is relevant to all our communities. One way to do that is by looking and sounding like them and making sure that we are open and accessible. That encourages all communities to engage in discussing the big social issues of the day. I am aware that we are getting close to the end of our time, but I will push on and squeeze in a couple more questions. How important was the impact of the Black Lives Matter movement on the Scottish Parliament election in May this year for political parties, candidates and the voting public? I appreciate that Jethans made the point quite clearly that that might feel a bit like a debate that is a flavour of the month at the moment, but we need systemic change and we cannot simply let the attention that is focused on this issue die down. However, I would like to understand what your views are on the impact of Black Lives Matter campaign at this point in time. Can I put that question first to Foisal and then to Cokab and then to Jatin? Thank you very much, Alison. A different wake-up call for some people. Basically, the BLM movement encouraged voters to vote more for diversity. It became a political movement. I joined the protest outside the Parliament, one of my first speeches as an MSP, demanding no more George Floyd. The internet and worldwide communication has its problem, but in this instance we are quickly able to see demonstration in Australia have conversation with activists across the globe. I think that it is a very wake-up call and it has people out to vote. It is a wake-up call to everyone. Alison, I think that it was significant, but probably not as much as we would like it to have been. At that time, when tragic events happen, sadly they happen too often and they do happen regularly. People came together and I remember an online event where Black people were able to come along, express their views and opinions in the context of dreadful racism in every area. Elected members came along to that and listened to it. I believe that there were a few parliamentary questions that were put down and there was a discussion about it. At that time, we only had two ethnic minority members in the Parliament that were there, but I take the point that it is incumbent on everyone to be discussing it. From that, have I seen any lasting legacies? I am not sure that I have. I am constantly having to refer back to it. I get what Jack in saying about the flavour of the month. It cannot be that, but what I think has happened is that the momentum for change has become irreversible. We are definitely moving forward. The younger generation, and the younger people in my experience, students in particular, became much more confident in challenging racism and calling it out, having the discussions with their parents and their peers. That is fantastic. Everybody is doing the job, because we should all be doing the job, but it cannot be left to a few of us. To see people not being afraid of being challenged back or getting that resistance back, they were prepared to take that on. That was a great thing. We now have a generation of people whose expectations are high and so they should be. I ask you about your views on the impact of the Black Lives Matter movement. For us, it was Black Lives Matter and also Covid almost coming together. Covid showed the big discrepancies that were applying to Black minority ethnic communities, health policy, social policy, et cetera. The two things are already much linked together. A lot of the Covid impacts were as a result of social deprivation, which impacts far greater on Black minority ethnic communities. I think the combination of the two things almost at the same time is what led to, as Co-Cab says, momentum for change. There is a much greater, I do not use that word, understanding acknowledgement of institutional racism out there just now. I think, yeah, I deliberately want to use the word understanding because I am not sure that there is a greater understanding as yet, but obviously first you start with acknowledgement, then you lead to understanding. That is where we need to get to. Having said that, I spoke earlier about racial attacks in schools or racial incidents in schools. I am not sure, I have not seen the data, the most recent data, but I am not sure it is declined. That would be one of the successes of Black lives matter if we stopped or severely decreased the number of racial incidents in schools. I do not think that we are there yet, by any means. To help Co-Cab is right because of momentum for change, but only time will tell. We are over time, but I am going to put one more as you would expect. There has been a lot of interest in our session this morning. There have been many questions via our event chat, but we are out of time, so my apologies to those that we have not been able to take today. I think that we will be back for further discussions on this issue and issues regarding wider diversity, too. Before we close, I would like to give each of our panellists one minute to sum up the key points for them raised in discussion today. If I can start with Co-Cab, I will then move to Jatton and then finally Faisal. For me, what has been great, first and foremost, is to have an hour to get underneath the big issues and to have a proper discussion. More often than not, it is about sound bites, whereas we have explored the issues in a bit more detail. We all recognise that progress has been made and that a few barriers have been broken. However, we cannot be complacent in any way whatsoever, and we need to make sure that the momentum that we have gained keeps going. That is incumbent on all of us, especially the Scottish Parliament, as a beacon of good practice that is representative of a modern, diverse, inclusive Scotland. I think that, from my point of view, I will tell the story very quickly when I went back to say goodbye to the kids at school, because I was still teaching right until getting elected. One black girl in particular who had never thought about the Scottish Parliament did not think that it was for her. There was no relevance at all. She said to me, she said, I cannot believe that my teacher, who looks like me, is now an elected member as an MSP. Do you think that I could do that job, Mrs Stewart? I said, yes, you can do that job. It took you so long to do it, because I have read your story online. What makes you think that it will be easier for me? I said to her, I said, listen, it will be easier for you because you have me there. I have opened that door for you, and I will be there to make sure that I can represent you until you can come and represent yourself and everybody else. We do represent Scotland, we are not just representing the ethnic minorities, we can and are fully capable of representing the constituents that we serve. Thank you. Can I move to Jatton? Yes, thanks. My takeaway from today is representation is really important, but what we have seen from some of the questions is anti-racist action is also as important. The two go hand in hand to a large extent. Luckily, in Scotland, race has not become a party political issue, so we can all work together on things. I suppose, if I can just abuse my position here, I mean, that is, you know, BME representatives have a range of interests, and I'm not just there to look at race or equality, but there is some onus on you to keep it on the agenda as well, so my plea would be for the six of you to form a parliamentary black caucus and use that as a mechanism of keeping other MSPs on their toes about this issue. Thank you very much, Jatton. To Foyzil, if you could give us a one-minute summary of your main points from today's discussion. I would like to thank organisers for organising this. What is coming out from today is very clear. First of all, I think that we all need to admit that racism do exist. If we say to ourselves that it doesn't exist, we will never be able to tackle that. To me, Black History Month is not only about this month. Black History needs to be part of the curriculum. History should be told fully. I think the message for everyone is let's work together and create a humanity to be proud of. We can all be part of making difference. We cannot change the past, but we can amend the present and shape the future. I think that we must end there. I have certainly learned a lot from our panel this afternoon. I am very grateful to you all. I know that those who have joined us will have found this a very worthwhile discussion. I would like to thank everyone who has joined us online today for making such a great contribution to our discussion. I would also like to thank our partners, CRER, the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights, and their chief executive, Jatin Harai, for his support. I would like to thank our members of the Scottish Parliament for giving up their time today to join us, co-cav Stewart and to Faisal Choudhury. I take this opportunity to remind all watching that the festival continues later today. We will have panels on climate change's impact on the Scottish Islands, climate activism, and tomorrow we will discuss everything from innovation's role in tackling climate crisis in big brains to big solution and culture's role in good health and wellbeing. I do hope that you can join us, but goodbye everyone. Thank you for now.


What's better for the attackers? 3v2 or 2v1? 2v1, why? Absolutely, absolutely. So we're just saying there, 2v1 is better than 3v2. Why? Because there isn't anyone to cover. Now, you have got two choices. So what do you want to do? Come to the ball? OK, I'll pass it to him. Yep, yep. OK, what do you want to do? Do you want to come to the ball? I'm going to pass it to him. You're happy with that? OK. Now you see the problem he's got. Whatever he does is wrong. Stays with you, I go. Comes to me, you can have it. All right, so now what I want you to try and think about doing is isolating one defender. Which end we're going? There, play! Make 2v1s.


Frontier Town, the saga of the Roaring West. Frontier Town, El Paso, Cheyenne, Calgary, Tombstone. Frontier Town, here is the adventurous story of the early West, the tamed and the untamed. From the Pekos to Powder River, Dodge City to Poker Flat. These are the towns they fought to live in and lived to fight for. Teaming crucibles of pioneer freedom. Frontier Town! And to start this little get-together, let's first identify me by saying that I'm a frontier lawyer from a frontier town. A town called Dos Rios. My name? Chad Remington. Well now that the preliminaries are taken care of, how about getting down to cases? Because I'd like to tell you a little of what's happened to me and a lot about what's happened out on the frontier. There's great wealth on the frontier, and I don't mean just mining wealth or oil or cattle. I mean the wealth of independence and security, if a man is hardy enough to tackle the job and drive it through. Adjust this alone has been enough to bring thousands upon thousands of people, people from everywhere and from all over, flocking to the frontier each time the government has thrown open a new parcel of land for settlement. And when the homesteaders come, well they certainly come by the thousands. Just last month I was riding in toward Dos Rios with Cherokee O'Bannon, the red-nosed ex-medicine man, and we were talking over the new acreage the government was readying to throw open to all comics. Believe me, Chad, if I wasn't tied down to Dos Rios and that livery stable I foolishly bought, I'd be out on that starting line for a piece of land when they open up the Comanche Strip for homesteading next week. And I sure wouldn't blame you, Cherokee. That's about the luscious rangeland within two states are here. Of course, that has its drawbacks too. Well, if there are any drawbacks to being lush, I ought to know. Some fellas think I'm the biggest lush within four states are here. Ha ha ha, it's a deed, yes it is. Well, I'm not going to argue at that point with you, but I'm serious about what I said, because there are a lot of the big ranches who've been using those hundreds of miles of grass as open range, and they don't like the idea of homesteaders coming in and cutting it up into small farms. They don't like it one blessed bit. You mean you think the big ranches are going to make trouble, Chad? I don't mean all of them, of course. There are a lot of them who have enough foresight to realize that the whole future of our little western empire depends on settlement. Thousands of new families with hope and ambition and the salt to stick it out. You're certainly right about that, Chad. Otherwise, this frontier of ours is always going to be an outpost of civilization. I wish some of the larger ranches, like Mitt Cummings, saw it as clearly as you do. In fact, there's been a rumor that Cummings went to Washington to see if he couldn't stop the government from opening the Comanche Strip. What in the world for? Mitt Cummings has got so much now that he can afford to bathe in champagne six times a day. That is to be stupid, but bathe in it. What is a man like? Blue blaze is a chant. You hear that? Not only do I hear it, but I see where it's coming from. You see there? About five cow punchers chasing that fellow wearing a blue denim. All right, come on.  Maybe we can lend a hand. Blast you foresight. Hold your horse still. Hold him still yourself, Fagan. You spooked him yourself with those shots you threw at me. Well, I'm not wasting any more lead on you.  I never rustle none of your cattle, and you know that I never rustle. If you got so much extra breath, maybe you'd better use it for a last prayer. Well, I reckon I gotta go sometime, so don't make too much difference to me, Fagan.  Well, Fagan, what's going on here? Well, what are you buttoning for Remington? Remington? Right. Ralph Forsythe. Doggone it, you sure arrived at the right time, Chad. And good old Cherokee. This barman was about to string me up for some rustling that he imagines I did. Well, I didn't miss any cattle till you went to work for me. You're swinging just like any other. You know we don't like lynchings around Dos Rios.  Well, Fagan, I'm not flapping my jaws just to hear myself talk. You got no business coming in here and telling me what to do. Chad, he's got his gun. Jump him. I sure will. Ha!  Go on, get up and clear out of here before I really lose my temper. Remington, you'll hear about this. We got laws around here, you know. We sure have got laws, Fagan. And you'd better learn to stick to them. Boy, if you two hadn't come along, my eyes would sure be bulging by this time. It seems to me, Ralph, I heard you make that kind of speech once before. Yeah. I guess I'm just one of them galutes who can't keep out of trouble. So was I once, but somehow I learned. You rustle Fagan's cattle? Oh, of course not. Oh, I ain't saying I haven't slaughtered a beef here and now when I was hungry. Ralph, a fellow who wants to work can generally make enough not to be hungry. Oh, you get no place working for some other jasper.  What's the matter, Cherokee? What you staring at? That shirt you're wearing. Ever got a shirt like that from a mail order catalog? Don't reckon it did. I remember seeing a fellow wearing the same kind of a shirt once. He just gotten out of jail. Well, if it was a shirt like this one, it must have been a New Mexico jail. You got hungry down in New Mexico, is that it? Good and hungry. But I'm not staying hungry no more, Chad. Believe me. Ralph, I've known you since you were ankle-high to a prairie dog. Since you don't like working for someone else, well, the government's throwing open the Comanche Strip for Homestead next week.  Me? A nester? My boy, with two years' hard work, he'd have a nice little spread. With maybe a hundred head of your own cattle. And you'd be working for yourself. Man, I haven't got nothing in my pocketbook to buy a tag camera and two nails. If you'll do it, Ralph, I'll stake you. Oh, gosh, Chad, I can't have you lending me money again. Well, what's money for? Come on, Ralph, let's shake on it. Tell Garnier, I don't know what to say. All you've got to say is yes. Come on, fella. I'll ride you into Dos Rios and put you up at the hotel.   Giving Ralph four-sized money. Now, he's no good. He's never been any good. He never will be. Oh, Ralph's all right. He just needs the right chance. He had his chance, and he took you for 100 saboleans. Which mark my words? You'll never get back.  And believe me, you never would have recognized that as a jail shirt if you hadn't been in that jail yourself. Don't understand human nature, eh? Well, how do you think I was making a living selling genuine Cherokee and then rattlesnake oil? But I'll tell you something, Chad. You just think you know a lot. Take it from yours truly. You've still got a lot to learn. Yes and D. Yes and D. Well, as it turned out, I did have a lot to learn. Because almost at the same moment Cherokee was exposing my worst faults to me, something I didn't know about was taking place in one of Dos Rias' most notorious saloons. Now don't get me wrong, Mr. Cummings. I can use that money. Any girl who has to work in a cafe can always use money. How do I know I'll be able to find the kind of man you need? I'm not worrying about that, Linda.  Well, can some of your cowboys do it? The men who work at your ranch, Mr. Cummings? Too risky right now. A lot of people know why I went to Washington. But if you're worrying about a man, how about the one you've been watching ever since he came in? One at the bar. He looks real nice. Nice, eh? Unless I miss my guests, they shirt that Jen's wearing. He got in jail. Really? You look like that kind. The reason you might want a man and the reason I want one are mighty different. He'll do for me. You get him. And after I'm through with him, if you still want him, well, I'll be paying you enough money to buy almost anything your little heart really wants. I could use some of that right now. Money? Yeah, sure. Here's a couple of hundreds on account. Now go on, honey. I'll leave you alone. You get me that man. Hey, what's that note you put up on the door of my office, Cherokee? Said you wanted to see me. Did I do, counselor? Did I do? Now don't tell me that because I gave Ralph Forsythe some money, you've decided you're going to work me for a fuel-free drink? Well, it's not a bad idea, Chad, but that isn't what I want to see you about. Ralph Forsythe was around before looking for you. Oh? Did he say if he's decided to make the run with the other settlers in the Comanche Strip? He sure didn't. But he handed me this and asked me to give it to you. Here, $100. What's that for? You're such a great judge of human nature. You ought to know. That's his answer to your suggestion. He settled down. Your money back. But where did he get $100 to repay me? Of course, I'm not supposed to be as smart as you are, but I can still put two and two together. Meaning what? Well, I happened to be in one of the... well, in one of the local business establishments this afternoon, and I saw Mitt Cummings in there talking to one of the girls. Does that give you any ideas? Was Ralph in there at the same time? I can't say for sure. I saw him come out of there later. In fact, he came right straight out of there and walked down here to the livery stable to hand me the money to give back to you. Well, let me tell you something, Trinity. If Mitt Cummings thinks he's going to use Ralph to help him keep those settlers out of the Comanche Strip, Mitt Cummings has bitten off more than he can chew, unless that low-down buzzard enjoys chewing lead. We'll return to the second act of Western Empire, our exciting Frontier Town adventure in just a few moments. Frontier Town. Now, if anyone thinks I was overly bright, or even a little bit psychic in concluding that Mitt Cummings was buying the services of Ralph Forsythe to wage war on the stream of new settlers, which would soon be coming in, they're wrong. Very wrong. Because knowing Ralph's weakness for attractive women and his easy-come, easy-go philosophy added to my never too pleasant acquaintance with Cummings, it was no feat of mental gymnastics to figure out where Ralph had gotten the money, why he had gotten it, and what was going on. Knowing how Cherokee felt about Ralph, I decided for a change to leave him behind. But I did throw a saddle on my horse and start burning up the trails, which lead from Dos Reyes to Mitt Cummings' huge ranch. Now, who are they? Howdy, Cummings. Well, Remington. Lose your way? Scarcely. I'm sure I've come to the right place. Oh, then come on in. Thanks, but I don't reckon I'll be here long. Oh. I wanted to talk to you about Ralph Forsythe. Oh, Fagin tells me you saved Forsythe's neck. Not that it's worth much. It is, though, Mitt. It's worth a lot to him, and it is to me. That neck of Ralph's isn't worth much to anybody, unless it might be down in New Mexico. Whatever it was Ralph did down there, he's paid for it. Right now, he stands a chance of making good if he's left alone. Well, then why don't you leave him alone? Okay. I will if you will, because I'm willing to give you a chance if you're interested in taking it. You're getting liberal or something. I want to see the Comanche strip settled. And right now, what I want most of all is to see Ralph live in there. You don't say. That's your answer? All right.  So long comings, and don't forget. I'll be seeing you again. All right, boy, get up. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Linda, do you ever realize how much all that champagne you drank cost? What do you care about money, Ralph? Didn't I introduce you to the Mitt Cummings?  First, Chad saved me from having my neck stretched, and then I walked in here and met you.  Honey, when I'm talking about you, Not only am I telling the truth, but I'm not even starting to like it.  Of all the, I'll see you later, Ralph. Linda, come on back here. Let it go, Ralph. I'd rather talk to you alone. You, you got the money, didn't you? Yes, Cherokee gave it to me. Not that it's much, but well, it seems to me you got it awful fast. Too fast. Well, only suckers do things slow. The hard way. Oh, I don't know. Spending time in a New Mexico jail sounds much more like doing things the hard way. Ralph, are you gonna make the run into Comanche Strip next week? Uh-uh. I like it here in Dos Rios. Enough to stay here permanently? Permanently, huh? And who's gonna dig me this on the stand? Could be that girl who just left here. Mitt Cummings? Who knows? Might turn out to be me. I see. Well, you used to have a rep for being a pretty fair shot. I haven't gotten any worse. You wouldn't be boasting now, would you? Come on outside a few seconds, Ralph. Maybe I can convince you. Okay. Oh, Cher, is this far enough outside? Let's see. Yeah.  Oh, I see it good, Chad. Awful good. What? That's nice shooting, Ralph. That hawk is dropping like a rock. Yeah, look at it. No, you look at it. BAM! Well, not bad.  I was, Ralph. I was. Changed your mind yet about making a run into Comanche? Not a bit of it. But I'll tell you where I am going. Back inside and spend my time with someone who's not interested in all this preaching. By this time, I was fearful that Cherokee was right. Ralph looked like an incurable case. But not being Ralph, I wasn't prepared to give up that easily. The only concession I did make was to take Cherokee with me on the 40-odd mile ride over to the nearest cavalry post. And once we were there, I wasted no time or influence getting in to see the Colonel. Colonel, even though Remington may talk a little while, his ideas generally make pretty good sense. Well, that's all well and good, but what you gentlemen are asking me to do could turn out to be a complete disaster for the Army. It might even mean court martial for me. Colonel, I'm sure you wanna give these incoming homesteaders and settlers every possible protection. And if I can help you round up the vultures who will be trying to stop them from reaching the Comanche Strip, well, wouldn't that be a feather in your cap? Well, yes, yes, Remington, but you're suggesting that I use almost all my troops to protect one wagon train. Now, what's going to happen should there be a tax made if they strike at wagons coming in on other trails. Well, every trapper in the West has the same problem.  Colonel, if you'll do your part, I'll do mine. And if together we can't save the settlers, well, we'd better give the Comanche Strip back to the Indians thus as fast as we can. I simply can't understand you. First, you try to help Ralph Forsythe, and then you turn around and enter into a conspiracy with the United States Army. Bound to land Ralph right back into jail. He's not in jail yet. And with even half it. Shhh, Cherokee, here comes Ralph now. That's you, Chad. What'd you want? Oh, hello, Cherokee. Ralph, I'm going to make this short. And I hope sweet. And all I want is to make sure I hope sweet.  Well, I can't argue against that. Keep talking. I know all about you and Mitt Cummings. Yeah. I know that he's paying you to get information on which way the settlers are coming in and to stop him. Well, how in the world did you- Why don't you keep quiet? Let Chad finish. Now, look. If I give you a piece of information it should be worth a lot of money to Cummings. Will you take his money, pocket it, and clear out of the country? What's the information? Well, to save themselves from being attacked, more than 200 families of settlers have banded together into one big wagon train. They're leaving Las Cruces tonight and should get them into this part of the country about dawn. More than 200 of them? Well, that certainly should be where somebody's money. Well?  But someday... Well, someday you'll find out that I haven't forgotten everything you've done for me. Put her there, partner. I'll be seeing you. I hope. 200 of them nested their families all in one wagon train. That'll be like shooting fish in a rain barrel. This isn't something I can do alone, Mitt. I'll need help and lots of it. You'll get your help. Fagan and me and some of the other big ranchers will all be there to keep them dry farmers from ruining our country. Here, here's a couple of hundred bucks for the information. Now, get down to the bunkhouse and we'll roust out my boys. Get them ready. We're gonna ride. Hey, Colonel! Yes, Remington? What is it? You'd better stop your troop right here. From this mesa, we've got a view of the entire valley, man. Oh! There comes your wagon train right on schedule. And I defy anyone to tell that that isn't a real wagon train and that those tarpaulins are covering up 200 of your men armed with gatling guns. The wagon train's coming all right, but where are those ranchers you were so certain would attack it? Don't you worry about Cummings and Fagan and the other open rangers. If I know my cattle ranchers, they'll put in an appearance any time now. Except you may not be able to see them for the gun smoke. Look at them wagons. Forsythe, I don't know where you got your information, but it sure was right. I don't think we ought to wait any longer, Cummings. Yeah, Fagan, they're just about on top of us now. All right, boys, get them saddle guns out. And remember, unless it means you or the other jasper, shoot over their heads. Try to spook the horses and scatter the wagons. All right, come on, let's go! Yeah! Get out, boys! Start making an engine circle. That's it! Now get them winchesters working! Scatter, boys! Scatter! Get back to them sycamores! We're boxed in! Here comes a whole cattle ray troop down the other hill! Get up there, boy! Up into them rocks! I've reigned up, Cherokee. We've lost him. Jason can't be 50 yards ahead, Chad. That fella in the blue shirt. I don't think we'd ever catch him in these rocks. Chad Remington, what's gotten through you? Well, the cavalry rounded up Cummings and Fagan, and most of them in. What difference if one lone scared cowboy gets away? Come on, Cherokee, I want to be back tomorrow when the colonel shoots off the gun that'll open up the Comanche Strip and write chapter one on a great page in Western history. As I told you earlier, that all happened last month. Just the other day, Cherokee and I sort of happened to be passing through the Comanche country, and, well, we stopped for a bite to eat with a couple of friends. A couple of newlyweds.  You'll go a long ways, boy, you'll get cooking again like Linda. There's lots more out in the kitchen. I don't believe I could eat any more. I believe I might have a drop of something to wash down all this good food. Now, wait a minute, Cherokee. It seems to me that Linda and Ralph have both kept our glasses well filled. Well filled? That's the trouble. Who in the world wants his glass filled from a well? Oh, boy. Frontier Town, starring Reed Hadley and featuring Wade Crosby, is a Brucell's production. Story and Direction by Paul Franklin. Music written and played by Ivan Dittmar. Be sure to be with us again same time next week for another fine action adventure story with your favorite young Western star, Reed Hadley. Now, this is Bill Foreman telling you that Frontier Town comes to you from Hollywood.


I asked a question yesterday on the community tab about what your first operating system was and the responses were all over the place as I expected them to be. Really it has to do with how old you are, when you first got into technology and all that stuff or when you first went to school or whatever maybe. There were responses of people who used MS-DOS, the Commodore 64, early Magintoshes and there were also responses of Windows XP, Windows 8. I saw somebody said Windows 7. Very few people actually said Linux was their first experience in an operating system. And that's not really all that surprising because usually your first experience with a computer at least the way it used to be, your first experience with a computer was probably when you first went to school. Nowadays chances are the kids coming up today will probably have their first experience with an Android phone or an iPad or an iPhone or something. So what's your first experience was really has to do with when you first started using technology. The reason why I asked that question was because I've been thinking a lot about brand loyalty. Now when I first started using computers back when I went to elementary school ages and ages ago, my first experience was with one of the early Magintoshes. I'm not sure which one it was. I had really no interest in knowing what the computer was at that point. I just knew that computers were cool. And throughout my grade school years, I moved from those Apple computers and we moved into like Windows computers. It was around the time Windows 95 and 98 came out and those kind of things were being transitioned into use in schools. And the internet was just becoming a thing really. It was more it was just becoming a thing that more schools had. And it was the days of Alta Vista and the Netscape browser and things like that. So my journey through technology and stuff has been fairly varied because after that, I was a Windows guy for quite a while. And then I tried Linux probably in 2001-ish. A guy I worked with at a pizza joint handed me a CD with OpenSUSE on it. That was my first experience with Linux. In those days, if I remember right, the OpenSUSE disk came with both GNOME and KDE on it installed already so you could switch back and forth. It was really cool, but it was mostly useless because there's very little you could do on it as a normal computing user. Like I managed to get it installed and it was really cool and all that stuff, but really all computing stuff back then, at least compared to today, today really was mostly it was a tool. It was to write a report on or something for school, maybe a little bit of gaming, but there really wasn't a ton of gaming. If you wanted to game back in the early 2000s, you didn't get on computers to game. You got on a PlayStation or an Xbox, but I didn't stick on Linux. I went back to Windows. I use Windows 98 and Windows XP and then I went to college and because of the way student loans work and that kind of stuff, I ended up with a Macintosh and it was one of those little white Macbooks. That was my first modern experience with a Mac prior to that. My experience with Macintosh was way back in elementary school. I was a Mac guy then for a long time. The reason why I've been thinking about brand loyalty so much is because for whatever reason, my little experience as a Mac guy, which probably lasted throughout my college years, I think I use it from 2005-ish to 2011, I guess, and then I went back to Windows. Even now, even today, for whatever reason, I still have some kind of brand loyalty to Apple. I don't understand it. I don't like the company. I don't like how it's run. I don't agree with their world-garden approach to technology, none of this stuff, but I still pay attention to all their keynotes. I still, for whatever, feel like I have to defend them to other people.  The same thing is happening with Linux. This has been something that's been going on for a long time in the Linux community. You pick a distro and you become loyal to it, like the people who are really very hardcore into Debian. They will defend Debian probably to the death. Vinyl Arch has such brand loyalty amongst Arch fans that they have literally become a meme.  They are a meme. And I'm one of those people. I use Arch, by the way, now granted, I use an Arch-based distro. I don't use Vinyl Arch because I'm much too lazy to actually install Arch itself, so that's a whole other thing. People who use Vinyl Arch look down on people like me because of our laziness. I've been thinking about brand loyalty. Because I have a weird attachment to Apple, I don't even own an Apple product right now. I have an old iPad that won't turn on, but I don't use an Apple product day to day. I have an Android phone. I have a computer here that runs Linux full time. It doesn't have a secret partition that's running Big Sur on it or anything. I have that weird attachment to Apple, but I also have a weird attachment to Arch. And so it's just been something that I'm thinking about. So basically, this is a video of me rambling about how I don't really understand brand loyalty. I don't understand why it exists. Because it does. Obviously, I have brand loyalty. I think everybody has some kind of brand that they're really loyal to. It's not even totally a computer thing. Ford versus Chevy, for example. There are four guys. There are Chevy guys here in the United States as well. It's definitely something that exists. And I don't understand it because when it comes down to the Ford versus Chevy debate, one is not better than the other. They're both really expensive vehicles when you buy them brand new. They don't last necessarily longer than each other.  You don't hear about Ford or Chevy's lasting forever. Even though they probably do, some of them, it depends on the circumstances. But there's no real reason for that brand loyalty other than it's just what you prefer. It doesn't make you better than, just because you own something with a blue logo on the front doesn't make you better than the guy with the bow tie across the street. Same thing with Linux, right?  So what? I have access to the AUR. Big whoop. I mean, don't get me wrong. I love the AUR. I think everybody should use the AUR. I think I will preach about the glories of how awesome the AUR is until the day I stop using Linux. It doesn't make me better than somebody who uses Ubuntu or Debian or OpenSUSE or Fedora or BSD. I mean, it just doesn't make me better. People who enjoy using Debian and have that fondness of the stability that comes along with using Debian, it doesn't make them better than me because I use a rolling distro and have things break all the time. It doesn't make them better. It doesn't make me better. This loyalty is weird. I guess that's the point of the video. It's just weird because it's also dangerous because maybe not in terms of like Ford versus Chevy or Mac versus Windows or iOS versus Android. Who cares about proprietary nonsense? But in the open source, the free and open source community, brand loyalty can actually be a little bit dangerous because it fosters the spirit of fragmentation that can sometimes cause projects and stuff to be abandoned, can cause their teams to break apart for no reason, and also is the reason why we have nine or 12 or 14 different package managers on Linux. We don't need that many, not really. We don't need Pac-Man and app and zipper and all this stuff. If we could come together on one, it would be so much better because we could go through and focus that development effort on the bigger things, like creating better gaming experiences, like creating a better office suite because Libre office is kind of terrible. And if we could focus some of our effort on actually creating some good things that aren't package managers, that'd be great. Because we have a disparate community that all like different things and they like to focus on whatever they want to focus on, which is perfectly fine. I think it's one of the great things about Linux is you can focus on whatever you want to focus on. We only have so much in terms of resources and the whole, my Linux is better than your Linux mentality can sometimes make that fragmentation even worse. Now, that being said, obviously, I don't think that it can be a bad thing, right? Fragmentation and brand loyalty within the Linux community can be a bad thing. And I do think that it can be dangerous, but I also think that the fact that there's choice in the Linux community is good. So, like I said, brand loyalty is weird because it can be a good thing. It can also be a bad thing. It can be an obsessive thing. And it's just, you know, one of those things that at least in the FOS community has both good and bad sides, right? But all that being said, my Linux is not better than your Linux. Use the Linux that you want to use. Use the window manager you want to use. Use the desktop environment that you want to use. Use the whatever you want to use. That's what's great about Linux. Just don't think because you use that thing that you're better than me. And I will try not to say I'm better than you because I use my version of Linux. So that was longer than I thought it was going to be. And it was a really rambly video. I'm sorry about that. I didn't have a good plan for today.  But thanks for watching. You can follow me on Linux. You can follow me on Linux. You can follow me on Twitter at Linuxcast. You can follow me on Facebook at Linuxcast. And you can support me on Patreon at patreon.com slash Linuxcast. Before I go, I'd like to take a moment to thank our current patrons. Devon, Marcus, Meglund, Donnie, Sven, Merrick, Kampen, Mitchell. Thanks everybody for your support. Thank you for watching. I'll see you next time.