Lux presents Hollywood. Lever Brothers Company, the makers of Lux Toilet soap, bring you the Lux Radio Theatre. Starring Barbara Stanwick and Fred McMurray in Double Indendity. Ladies and gentlemen, your producer, Mr. William Keele. Greetings from Hollywood, ladies and gentlemen. You know, I began a serial in a weekly magazine called Double Indendity, and believe me, thereafter, I eagerly awaited each new installment. It was one of the most thrilling of James M. Cain's novels, and when Paramount Pictures brought it to the screen, I found the film even more exciting. My renewed enthusiasm was due to our stars, Barbara Stanwick and Fred McMurray, who created two of the most electrifying characterizations of their careers. Double Indendity is a drama of intense emotion between two people whose infatuation leads them to murder and revenge. And as a study in suspense, I'm sure you'll find it entirely satisfying. Just as the ladies of our listening audience find our product, Lux Toilet soap, entirely satisfying for beauty care, especially these fall days, for throughout all the changes of weather, Lux soap remains a favorite complexion care. Here's Double Indendity, starring Barbara Stanwick as Phyllis and Fred McMurray as Walter. Downtown Los Angeles. The night watchman of an insurance company has just opened the door for one of the employees. Working pretty late, aren't you, Mr. Naff? Yeah. Yeah, this guy waits the morning. Nothing wrong is there, Mr. Naff? You look kind of funny. No, no, I'm fine. Thanks for letting me in. That's okay, Mr. Naff. Walter Naff walks unsteadily to his office. He wets a towel at the water cooler, presses it inside his coat to staunch a bullet wound, and slumps at his desk. His hand reaches to a dictophone transcribing machine and turns on the switch. Memorandum to Barton Keyes, claims manager. Pacific Oil Risk Insurance Company. Dear Keyes, I suppose you'll call this a confession. I just want to set you right about the Dietrichson case. You said it wasn't an accident. Check. You said it wasn't suicide. Check. You said it was murder. Check. But you made one mistake, Keyes. Just one little mistake. You want to know who killed Dietrichson? Hold tight to that cheap cigar of yours, Keyes. I killed Dietrichson. Yes, I killed him.  And I didn't get the money, and I didn't get the woman. Pretty, isn't it? Cigarette. It all began last May. Around the end of May it was. I had a call to make. A renewal on an automobile policy. What is it? It's an insurance man. He wants Mr. Dietrichson. What do you do? I'm Walter Neff, the Pacific Oil Risk Insurance Company. Well, how do you do, Mr. Neff? I'm Mrs. Dietrichson. How do you do, Mrs. Dietrichson? That's all, Maddie. Yes, ma'am. It's about the renewal of automobiles. I can't seem to contact your husband at his office. Well, suppose we sit down and you tell me about it. My husband never tells me anything. I guess he's been too busy down at the Long Beach oil field. Well, maybe I could catch him at home some evening. Wouldn't take him to clear up. We've got a new kind of 50% retention feature in the collision coverage.  I think so. Doing pretty well? That's a living. Do you handle just automobile insurance or all kinds? Just name it and I'll write it, Mrs. Dietrichson. Accident insurance? Accident insurance, I should say so. That's a honey of an ankle that you're wearing, Mr. Dietrichson. I'm glad you like it. There's something engraved on it, huh? Just my name. Phyllis. Phyllis, huh? I think I like that. But you're not sure. Yeah, I'd have to drive it around the blog a couple of times. We're getting away from insurance, aren't we, Mr. Neff? Now, why don't you drop around tomorrow night about 8.30? He'll be home then. Who? My husband. You were anxious to talk to him, weren't you? Yeah, I was, but I'm sort of getting over the idea, if you know what I mean. There's a speed limit in this state, Mr. Neff. 45 miles an hour. How fast was I going? I'd say around 90. Now, tomorrow night at 8.30 then, huh? Will you be here too? I usually am. Same chair, same perfume, same ankle? I wonder if I know what you mean. I wonder if you wonder. Good afternoon, Mr. Dietrichson. I can still remember the smell of honeysuckle all along the street. How could I have known that murder can sometimes smell like honeysuckle? Maybe you would have known keys the minute she mentioned accident trials. Well, I went back to the office. They said you'd been yelling for me all afternoon. Would you like to know about that Phillips case? Phillips? Yeah, you wrote a policy on his truck. His truck burned up. Oh, yeah, yeah. Look at this. A claim waiver, huh? Yeah, Mr. Phillips suddenly decides to withdraw his claim. You knew all along it was authority, huh? My little man knew. My little man inside of me here. Every time one of those phonies comes along, he touches nuts. What kind of amateurs are we? Well, now, wait a minute, keys. Sure, I wrote that policy, but I said to have him thoroughly checked first.  I'm sick and tired of trying to pick up after you fast-talking. Why are you worried too much, Key? You're too suspicious. No. Well, you wouldn't even say today's Tuesday unless you looked at the calendar, and then you checked to see if it was this year's calendar, and then just to make sure you'd get a copy of the album.  I love you, too. Yeah. Just thought you'd like to know we nailed another phonie. Back in my office was a message from Mrs. Dietrichsen. My appointment had been canceled. She wanted me to stop by on Thursday afternoon instead. Phyllis. Phyllis Dietrichsen. I was there, all right? Well, come in, Mr. Neff. I hope you didn't mind changing the appointment. Last night was inconvenient. No, no, I was working on my stamp collection anyway. I was just fixing some iced tea. Would you like a glass? Well, unless you've got a bottle of beer that's not working. Well, there might be some. Nettie. Oh, about those renewals, Mr. Neff. I talked to my husband. Well, good. He'll renew all right. As a matter of fact, I thought he'd be here this afternoon. No. But, uh, he's not. No. Uh-huh. It's terrible. Nettie. Nettie, can't you hear? Oh, I forgot. It's Thursday. It's her day off. Uh-huh. Well, uh, iced tea will be fine. Lemon. Sugar. Fix it your way. It's Thursday off. Maybe there's something I can do for you. Like running the vacuum cleaner. Fresh. You know, I used to pedal vacuum cleaners. Not much money, but you learn a lot about life. I didn't think you learned it from a correspondence course, Mr. Neff. Make it Walter, huh? All right. Walter. Tell me, how much commission do you make on this insurance? Twenty percent. Why? Oh, I thought perhaps I could throw a little more business your way. My husband. I worry a lot about him in those oil fields. It can be very dangerous. Dangerous? For an executive? Well, you don't know him. He's right down there with the drilling crews. It's got me worried sick. Well, you mean some dark night at Derrick, my phone. I'll be talking to that. But that's the idea. Accidents happen all the time. Don't you think he should be insured? Oh, sure. Well, what kind could he have? Fair enough to cover doctorate and hospital bills. Say, 125 a week cash benefit. He'd rate about 50,000 capital cents. Capital cents? What does that mean? Well, in case the accident is fatal. No, maybe I shouldn't have said that. Oh, I suppose you have to think of everything in your business. Why don't I talk to him about it? You could try, but he's pretty tough gone. They're all tough at first. He has a lot on his mind. He doesn't seem to want to listen to anything, except maybe a baseball game on the radio. Sometimes we sit here all evening and never say a word to each other. Sounds pretty dull. Walter, I want to ask you something. Could I get an accident policy without bothering him at all? How's that? Well, it would make it easier for you, too. You wouldn't even have to talk to him. I could pay for it, and he didn't know anything about it. Why shouldn't he know? Well, because he doesn't want accident insurance. He's superstitious about it. A lot of people are. It's funny, isn't it? If there were a way to get it like that, all the worry would be over. See what I mean, Walter? I think it's lovely. And then, if some dark wet night, the derrick did fall on it. What derrick? I don't know what you're talking about. You could fall out of the upstairs window.  Not that crazy, Mr. D. What's the matter? Look, baby, you can't get away with it. You want him to die, don't you? That's a horrible thing to say. What do you take me for? A guy that walks into a good-looking dame's front parlor and says, good afternoon, I sell accident insurance on husbands. Have you got one that's been around too long? Just give me a smile, and I'll help you collect it. I think you're rotten. I think you're swell. As long as I'm not your husband. Get out of here. You better get out of here. I'll get out of here, but quick, baby. I'd let her have her keys straight between the eyes. I got hold of a red hot poker and the time to drop it was now before it burned my hands. But all the time I knew that I hadn't walked out on anything. That this wasn't the end. I knew that sooner or later my doorbell would ring and I'd know who it was without even having to think. Hello. You forgot your hat this afternoon. Did I? How'd you know where I lived? The telephone book. It was raining. Yeah. Sit down.  The oil fields. He phoned he'd be late.  You must never think anything like that about me. No, it's not okay. Not if you don't believe me. Well, what do you want me to do? I want you to be nice to me like you were at first. Something's happened. I know it has. It's happened to us. I feel as if he were watching me. Well, not that he cares but he keeps me on a leash so tight I can't breathe. Well, he's in Long Beach, isn't he? Relax. You have a nice place here. Who takes care of this? A cleaning woman comes in now and then. You cook your own breakfast? I squeeze a grapefruit once in a while. You're alone. Oh, that sounds wonderful. You don't have to sit across the table and smile at him and that daughter of his every morning of your life. Daughter? That's right. You didn't meet Lola, did you? He thinks a lot more of her than he does of me. Never think about a divorce. Oh, he'd never give me one. Well, why'd you marry him? I wanted a home. Why not? Is that so wrong? But that's not the only reason.  I was her nurse. When she died, he was terribly broken up. I pitied him so. But now you're hating him. Yes. Yes, he's just awful to me.  He's always been mean to me.  Walter, I don't want to kill him. I never did not.  Only sometimes you wish he were dead. Perhaps I'd do. When you wish it was an accident and you had that policy for $50,000. Is that it? Perhaps that too. The other night, we drove home from a party. He was drunk again. When we drove into the garage, he sat with head-ass steering wheel and the motor still running. And I thought what it would be like if I didn't turn it off. Just closed the door and left him there. I'll tell you what it'd be like. We've got a guy in our office named Kees. In three minutes, he'd know it wasn't an accident. In 10 minutes, you'd be sitting under hot lights. In 30 minutes, you'd be signing your name to a confession. Walter, I didn't do it. I'm not going to do it. Not if there's an insurance company in the picture. They know more tricks than a carload of monkeys. And if there's a death-mixed omelet, you haven't got a prayer. They'll hang it just as sure as 10 diamonds will buy a dollar, baby. And I don't want you to hang, baby. So stop thinking about it, will you? Oh, why did I come here? So we just sat there, Kees. And she started crying, softly, like the rain on the window. Maybe she'd stop thinking about it, but not me. I couldn't. It was all tied up with something I'd been thinking about for years. You know how it is, Kees. In this business, you can't sleep for trying to figure out all the angles they could pull on you. And then one night, you get to thinking how you could crook the house yourself and do it smart, because you know every trick in the book. And then suddenly the doorbell rings and the whole setup is right there in the room with you. Walter, I better leave. Will you phone me? Oh, I hate him. I love going back to him. You believe me, don't you? Sure. Sure, I believe you. I can't stand it anymore. What if they did hang me? They're not going to hang me. It's better than going on this way. They're not going to hang you because I'm going to help you do it. Do you know what you're saying? Come here. I'm saying we're going to do it and we're going to do it right. And I'm the guy that knows how. Walter, you're hurting me. There's not going to be any slip-up. Nothing sloppy, nothing weak. It's got to be perfect. Yes. Now call me tomorrow, but not from your house and watch your step every minute. This has got to be perfect.  Straight down the line, baby. Straight down the line. Night, Walter. That was it, Keys. The machinery had started to move. Nothing could stop it now. The first thing to do was fix Dietrich's and up with that accident policy. I knew he wouldn't buy, but all I wanted was his signature on an application. That man I'd have to get him to sign without his knowing what he was signing. And I wanted another witness besides Phyllis to hear me giving him a sales talk. A couple of nights later, I went to the house. Everything looked fine, except I didn't like the witness Phyllis had brought in. Dietrich's daughter, Lola. Didn't you hear me now? I just told you I don't want any accident. Now look, Mr. Dietrich, the only way you can protect yourself is... Yeah, yeah, yeah. The next thing you'll tell me is I need earthquake insurance or lightning insurance. That's right, honey. Why if we bought all the insurance they'd tell us we need, we'd be broke all the time. Look, what keeps us broke is you're going out and buying five hats at a crack. But Mr. Dietrich's in dollar for dollar accident insurance is the cheapest coverage you can buy. All I want's a renewal on that automobile insurance. Well, just as you say. Got something better to do, Lola? Yes, I have. Father, is it all right if I run along? I'm going skating with Anne. Anne, huh? Or is it really that Nino Zacchetti again? Oh, Father, please. Better not be. If I ever catch you with that Zacchetti guy up... It's Anne Matthews, Father. We're going ice skating. And if you don't mind, I'd rather not keep her waiting. Okay, go on. Good night, Father. Good night, Phyllis. Good night, Mr. Dietrichson. Glad I've met you. Thank you. A great little fighter for a wait. Well, if you'll just sign these papers, Mr. Dietrichson, you'll be covered till the new policies are issued. Just so I'm protected when I drive up north. He was a Stanford man, Mr. Neff. He still goes to his class reunion at Palo Alto. What's wrong with that? Can't have a little fun even once a year? What do I sign? The, uh, the bottom line. But both copies, please. How much are you taking there for? Well, I'll figure it out later. I can pick up your check at the office. I think that's enough insurance for one evening. Yeah. I'm going upstairs, Phyllis. Bring me a drink. Good night, Mr. Dietrichson, and thank you. All right, Walter. It's fine. He signed, didn't he? Of a trip to Palo Alto when? The end of the month. He drives. He always drives. Well, not this time. You're going to make him take the train. Why? Because it's all worked out for a train.  That means they'll pay double on certain accidents, the kind that almost never happened. Like, for instance, if a guy is killed on a train, they'll pay $100,000 instead of $50,000. I see. We're hitting it for the limit, baby. That's why it's got to be the train. It'll be a train, Walter, just the way you want it. In a few moments, we'll bring you the second act of double indemnity. Now, our producer, Mr. William Keely. Act two of double indemnity, starring Barbara Stanwick as Phyllis and Fred McMurray as Walter. Earlier tonight, Walter Neff, insurance salesman, was shot and wounded. He was able to reach his office. There, at his desk, he continues to talk into the office recorder. A message for a man named Kees. Well, Kees, the first step was over. Phyllis and I had Dietrich's signature on that application for accident insurance. I went out to my car. Waiting for me was Dietrich's daughter, Lola. Mr. Neff? Oh, oh, sure. You like ice skating, huh? I can take it or leave it. Only tonight, you're leaving it? Yes. Yes, I am. It could take me as far as Franklin and Vermont. Yeah, I'd be glad to. Who's waiting on the corner there? His name is Nino Zacchetti. That the fellow your father doesn't want you to meet? Nino's not what my father thinks at all. If Nino just weren't so darn hot-headed, if he'd only... I don't know why I'm telling you all this. Please, you won't say anything. I haven't heard a word, Mr. Dietrichsen. Miss Dietrichsen. Thanks, Mr. Neff. You're nice. I saw her run up to her boyfriend. I found myself hoping he was right for her. She'd be needing somebody now, because... because her father was a dead pigeon. Only a question of time and not much time at that. Phyllis and I had to pick a place where we could meet, a safe place. We decided on that supermarket on Los Feliz Boulevard. She was to be there every morning around 11 o'clock, shopping. I could run into her there sort of accidentally on purpose. I've wanted to talk to you ever since yesterday. You're not so loud. Move over to the shelves. It's all set. The policy came through. Give it to me. Nobody's watching us. Can you get it in a safe deposit box? Yes, yes. We both have keys.  Put it in the cart. You're nervous, Walter. I'm very calm. Remember, you never saw that policy. You never even touched it. Oh, I'm not a fool, Walter. Now, when is he leaving? We're talking into taking the train. You mean I can say something now? I've been trying to tell you the trip to Palo Alto is off. He isn't going. What happened? He had an accident at the oil field. His leg is broken. It's in a cast. He broke his leg. What do we do now, Walter? Nothing. Nothing. We just wait. Walk around. We're supposed to be shot. But we can't wait. I can't go on like this. What do you suppose would happen if he found out about the policy? Nothing is better sitting in that death hall. Don't ever talk like that. Well, don't let's start losing our heads, that's all. It's not our heads. It's our nerve we're losing. Oh, it's so awful without you, Walter. It's like a wall between us. I'm thinking of you every minute, baby. Don't ever stop, Walter. Don't ever. I let a four-week go by keys, and I didn't even try to see Phyllis again. I kept telling myself that maybe those fates they say watch over you had broken his leg to give me a way out. And then it was the 15th of June. You may remember the date, Keys. You were in my office. Hello. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a minute. It's for you, Dame. Oh. Hello. Is this Mr. Neff? Yes.  It's urgent. Well, I'm busy, Margie.  You can't, Officer. Yeah. Yeah. Keys, suppose I join you in your office, huh? No, that's okay. I'll wait. I'll only tell the Dame not to take all day, huh? Go ahead, Margie. Make her snappy. Yes, sir. What color did you pick? Oh, thank you. Yeah, that suits me fine. Yes, sir. I'll take care of everything. Goodbye, Margie. But Dame's chasing you again? Or is it none of my business? Well, if I told you she was a customer, you... Margie, huh? Customer? I bet she drinks from the bottle. I better see what Norton wants. There you were, Keys, right there when Phyllis called me. And those fates I was talking about had only been stalling. Now they'd thrown the switch and the time for thinking it all run out. I wanted my movements accounted for up to the last part of second. Food-proof alibis. I drove my car into the garage in the basement of my apartment. Watch job, Mr. Neff? Sure. Only have a couple of other cars ahead of me. Well, that's okay, Charlie. I'm not going out. I won't be needing it till morning. Okay, Mr. Neff. That'll give me time to do a good job on it. Then I called Mr. Norton. Ask him to give me... Ask him some funny questions about liability rates. He lives in Westwood Keys, a toll call. That meant there'd be a record of it. I changed into a blue suit, the same color Dietrichson would be wearing, and waited for Norton to call me back with the figures. Then I stuffed a hand towel and a roll of adhesive in my pocket so I could fake something that looked like a cast on a broken leg. Next, I stuck a card inside the telephone box. If somebody called me, the card would fall down when the bell rang, that way I'd know if anyone tried to get me while I was away. I did the same thing with the doorbell. I left my apartment by the service stairs and walked all the way to the Dietrichson house. It was easy getting into the garage. I got in the back of the car and lay there on the floor and waited. Finally, they came out. The car started. For a long time, they didn't say a word. You're pretty quiet. Leg bothering you? No more unusual. Remember what the doctor said if you get killed if you might wind up with a shorter leg. So what? Makes you feel pretty good to get away from me, doesn't it? For three days. Hey, how come you're taking this street? What's wrong with it? You shouldn't have turned. This is the wrong street. What did you turn here for? Why are you blowing that horn? Answer me! I said, why are you... Dietrichson was dead. That part was over. She kept driving around till I told her to head for the station. Everything all right, Walter? Did you cover him with a robe? Yeah, we can get out. Yeah, the crushes. I'll take care of the red cap and the conductor. I'll tell him to let you alone that you don't like to be helped. Ready? Yeah. Don't worry, Walter. I'll go as soon as the train leaves. Straight down the highway as far as that refinery. Then I turn left onto the dirt road to the railroad tracks. You don't have plenty of time, but watch your driving. You don't want any cop stopping you with him in the back. Oh, Walter, we've been through this so many times. I'll drop off the train as close to the spot as I can. There's a red cap coming. Car 9, section 11. Just my husband is going. Oh, no, no, thank you. He doesn't like to be helped. The train was a few minutes out of Glendale. I hobbled back to the observation platform. I didn't have much time. Only I found that I wasn't alone. Can I help you, Mr. Oh, broken leg. Yeah, I just thought I'd like to see what it's like out here. No, thanks. I can manage fine. Going fine? Palo Alto. I'm going all the way to Medford, Oregon. My name's Jackson. How do you do? Looking for something, Mr. Deeprich. It's just my cigar case. I guess I left it in my coat back in the car. Maybe I can find a pole. Oh, you just... There you are, Mr. Deeprich. Oh, thanks. I'll be glad to get them for you. What car? Car 9, section 11. Dark gray top coat. Be right back, Mr. Deeprich. I had stayed in the shadows. Jackson never did get a good look at my face. But there was no time to think about him. I climbed over the railing and dropped off. Walter, you're all right. You don't hurt? I'll scratch. Can you see the cards down there? Yeah, I can see it. Can you manage him alone? Yes. I'll walk down the road a little just in case. I'll wait for you. I carry the body to the tracks. As we drove back, we went over once more what she was to do at the inquests and about the insurance when that came up. Yes, Walter. Yes, I know just what to do. Did you think I'd go all to pieces now that it's over? I said I'd help you, Walter. Maybe now you'll believe me. Not a nerve, Keys. Not a tear, not even a blink of the eyes.  We'd better not see each other for a while, darling. Oh, it's going to be awful. We can meet in the market, say, on Thursday. Walter. Well? You're going to leave me just like that? Aren't you going to kiss me? Straight down the line, isn't it? I love you, Walter. That's all there was to it, Keys. Perfect. Every detail. And yet as I walked down the street, suddenly it came over me that everything would go wrong. It sounds crazy, Keys, but it was true, so help me. I couldn't hear my own footsteps. It was the walk of a dead man. The next day it was worse when the story broke in the newspapers and the day after that when I knew you'd start digging into it. Then Norton the supervisor said he wanted to see me. Sit down, Walter. Not that Dietrichson case. Yes, Mr. Norton. Anything wrong? We had him insured, Walter. It's going to cost us a lot of money. That's always wrong. Uh-huh. What about the inquest? His wife and daughter made the identification verdict accidental death. What did the police figure? He got tangled up in his crutches and fell off the train. They're satisfied. It's not their money. Can I come in? Well, did you find him, Keys, that Jackson fellow? I just talked to him in Manfred Hollow, Walter. Who's Jackson? The last man who saw Dietrichson alive. There's not much he can tell us, either. Well, that's fine, isn't it? And a great piece of salesmanship when we sold Dietrichson that policy. Now, there's no use pushing Walter around. Is he supposed to know when a guy's going to fall off a train? Fall off? Are you sure Dietrichson fell off? Yes. Yes, I am. Not even one of those interesting little hunches of yours? I'm surprised, Keys, because I formed a very definite opinion. I know that it wasn't an accident. Not an accident? Well, you seem surprised, Walter. But what about you? Me? You've got the ball, Mr. Norton. Let's say you run with it. All right. Watch. You can send her in now.  I'm having a visitor. I want you both to stay and watch me handle this. Mr. Norton, this is Mrs. Dietrichson. This was it. How do you do, Mrs. Dietrichson? This was a finish. Won't you be seated, please? My hand shook, so I had to put them in my pockets. Who'd give it away first? Phil, listen. How do you do? Well, I... He knew. How do you do? Norton said he knew. You know why we asked you to come here, Mrs. Dietrichson? All I know is that your secretary made it sound very urgent, something about, uh, accidental. Yes, Mrs. Dietrichson. Your husband was insured. You'll probably find a policy among his personal papers. His safe deposit box hasn't been opened yet. Meanwhile, I'm afraid we're not at all satisfied with the report of the inquest. I don't know what you mean. Frankly, we suspect suicide. Now, you said at the inquest that your husband had no worries of any kind. Yes. Yes, I said that. Yet only a short time ago he takes out an accident policy and tells you nothing about it. Why? Because he doesn't want his family to suspect what he intends to do. Do what, Mr. Norton? Commit suicide. In which case, Mrs. Dietrichson, this company is not liable. Now, we could go to court, you know. No, I don't know anything. I don't even know why I came here. I didn't say we want to go to court. What I suggest is, uh, a settlement of some sort. Don't bother, Mr. Norton. When I came in here, I had no idea your company owed me money.   You want to bargain with me at a time like this. I don't like your insinuations about my husband, and I don't like your methods. In fact, I don't like you, Mr. Norton. Goodbye. Yes, sir. You sure carried the ball, Mr. Norton. Let her go to court. We'll prove it was suicide. We will. The first thing that struck me was that suicide angle. Only I dumped it in a waste paper basket three seconds later. You ought to take a look at the statistics on suicide sometime. You might learn a little something about the insurance business. Sister Keith, I was raised in the insurance business. Then it's time you realized this company's got to pay Mrs. Dietrichson $100,000. Come on, Water. Let's get back to work. I could have hugged you right then and there, Keith.  That night I could feel the floor under my feet again. That $100,000 was as safe for Phyllis and me as if we had it in the bank. Well... I was playing you a home darling. Hello, baby. Everything all right? Sure, sure, it's fine. You were wonderful in Norton's office. How do you think I felt? Where are you now? At the drugstore. Can I come up? Okay, but be careful. Don't let anybody see you. Hello, Walter. Keith! What's the matter? Oh, I know you weren't expecting me. No, no, I wasn't. What's on your mind? What are you so nervous about? Who says I'm nervous? Oh, forget it, forget it. It's me, I guess. I got the jumps. Eh, that Dietrichson case. You know, Walter, there's something fishy about it. Like what? I don't know. But right now I'll swear that it wasn't suicide and it wasn't an accident either. Well, what else is left? You mean somebody... What are you trying to tell me, Keith? Go to the door, you've got company. Oh, what about Dietrichson if it wasn't an accident? What are you yelling for? You want me to go to the door? Keith, wait! Wait, I'll get it! Keith! In a few moments, we'll continue with Act 3 of Double Indendment. The curtain rises on Act 3 of Double Indendment, starring Barbara Sanchez and Fred McMurray as Walter. Late at night, alone in his office, Walter Neff struggles against the pain of his wound as he tries desperately to finish relating a sordid procession of facts into the office recorder. A memorandum to Mr. Keyes. You went to the door, didn't you, Keyes? You opened it. And I stood there a few feet behind you on the edge of a cliff.  Nobody's... Oh, look for yourself. Must have come to the wrong door, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Now, what were you trying to tell me about Dietrichson? Oh, well, Dietrichson had accident insurance, right? Now, he broke his leg. Now, why didn't he put on a claim? Why? Maybe he just didn't have time to... Or maybe he just didn't know he was insured. No, no, no, no. That couldn't be. You delivered the policy to him, didn't you? Sure. Down at the oilfield. Guy takes out an accident policy. It's worth $100,000.  Do you know what the mathematical chances are of that happening? About one in a billion. I'm telling you, Walter, something has been worked on us. Murder? All right. Who? That wide-eyed dame who just doesn't know anything about anything, Mrs. Dietrichson?  She wasn't even on the train. Oh, I don't claim to know how it was worked or who worked it. Well, you're no help to me, are you? Give me some time to think it over. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry I bothered you, Walter. I don't make much sense, do I? You just don't seem to have anything to go on. No, no, nothing at all. Well, I'll see you in the morning, Walter. Five minutes later, Phyllis Dietrichson was in my apartment. It was Phyllis all right who'd come to the door while you were there. But she'd heard us talking. She'd duck back in the elevator before you opened the door. Luck and brains, Keys. A pretty tough combination to beat. I mustn't stay long, Walter.  Just tell me how much he knows. Nothing. Just a hunch. But he can't prove a thing, can he? Not if we're careful. Not if we don't see each other for a while. How long a while? Until this dies down. You afraid, baby? Yes, I'm afraid, but not of Keys. I'm afraid of us. We're not the same anymore. We did it so we could be together. Instead of that, it's pulling us apart, isn't it, Walter? And you don't really care whether we see each other or not.   You still think I don't care? Oh, darling. The next day at the office, I had a visitor at Keys. Remember Dietrichson's daughter? Well, here she was again with something big on her mind. I'm praising Mr. Neff, but I'm not. Honestly, it's the same awful feeling I had once before when my mother died. When your mother died? We were at Lake Arrowhead six years ago last winter.  One night I found her delirious with fever. All the blankets were on the floor and the windows were wide open. Then the nurse came into the room.  I'll never forget. Two days later, my mother was dead. Do you know who that nurse was? Who? Phyllis. I tried to tell my father, but he wouldn't listen to me. Five months later, she married him. I tried to forget about it. But now it's all back again. Now that something's happened to my father, too. No, you're not talking sense, Lola.   You've got a pretty bad shock, aren't you? Imagining things... She did it. She did it for the money. At least she's not going to get away with it, because I'm good to tell everything I know. Lola, who else have you told us to? No one. Phyllis? Of course not. I've moved out of the house. I've taken a little apartment. I haven't told that boyfriend. No, I'm not seeing him anymore. We had a fight.  Yes, Mr. Neff. But I do a lot of thinking. About Phyllis. I took Lola out for dinner. I'd have to cheer her up. I'd have to make sure she wouldn't drop that dynamite about Phyllis to anyone else. I had no chance to talk to Phyllis. You were watching her like a hawk he was. The next day, you sent for me. I've got it, Walter. I've got it. All wrapped up in tissue paper. Dietrichsen was murdered, and I can tell you how.  I'm listening. First of all, Dietrichsen was never on the train. He was killed somewhere else and then put near the tracks by the wife and somebody else. Then the somebody else took the crutches and went aboard the train posing as Dietrichsen. Wait a minute. How can you be sure? Now, let's see what we've got in the way of proof. The only one who really got a good look at this supposed Dietrichsen is that Jackson guy from Oregon. Open the door, Walter, and tell Jackson to come in with you. Jackson's here? Yeah, come on.  Yeah, Mr. Jackson, please. Take a chair. Take a chair. Now, Mr. Jackson, did you study those photographs of Dietrichsen? Not the same man, Mr. Keys. I'm sorry. The man in these photographs is not the same man I saw on that train. There you are, Walter. There's your proof. Oh, this is Mr. Neff, one of our salesmen, Mr. Jackson. Please, I meet you, Mr. Neff.  Oh, 10 or 15 years younger than the man in these photos. Of course, it was pretty dark, and he kind of kept turning his back to me, but just the same, I am positive. Well, thank you, thank you. Now, we may need you again if the case comes to court, you understand? Expenses paid again, of course. Oh, yes, yes, yes, of course. I'll sign about you now. Do you want me to take a moment? You ever been up in Oregon, Mr. Neff? Oh, no, I haven't. It's funny, I keep looking at you like I met you somewhere. Yeah, that's ought to cover everything for you. Well, that's mighty worthy of Mr. Keys, and anytime you need me, you know. Yeah, thanks a lot. Goodbye. Well, there it is, Walter, and pretty soon we'll know who the somebody else is. Where we? Oh, they've got to meet. They've committed a murder. They're stuck with each other. They're on a trolley ride. Only it's a one-way trip, Walter, and the last stop's the cemetery. Yeah, you see this, this policy? Didric's? Yeah, the wife just put in a claim. Well, I'm gonna throw it right back at it. I left the office and phoned Phyllis from a public booth. We met in the market an hour later. Why did you call, Walter? What's the matter? Everything. Keys is rejecting your claim.  What's he got to stop me? Plenty. He's got it all figured out. But if he rejects the claim, I'll have to sue. Then you'll be in court and a lot of other things are gonna come up, such as you and the First Mrs. Dietrichson. What about me and the First Mrs. Dietrichson? The way she died. And about that morning veil you were trying on two days before you needed it. Lola, you've seen Lola. Sure I've seen her. Trying to make sure she won't yell her head off about what she knows.  I'm going out of this, Phyllis. Remember, you're not going to sue me. Because you don't want the money anymore, even if you could have it. Because Lola's made you feel like a heel all of a sudden. It isn't the money now, it's our next. I'm afraid to a father. You're afraid she might find out someday and you can't take it, can you? I said leave her out of this. It's me I'm talking about. I don't want to be left out of it. It's just we can't go through with it, then. We have gone through with it. The tough part is all behind us. We just have to hold on now and not go soft. Stick close to the together the way we started out. But the police may be watching us right now. Then let them get an eyeful. I loved you, Walter, and I hated him. But I wasn't going to do anything about it, not until I met you. You planned the whole thing. I only wanted him dead. And I'm the one who was dead. Is that what you're telling me? I'm telling you that nobody is pulling out. We went into it together and we're coming out together. It's straight down the line for both of us. Remember. Yes, I remembered. Just like I remembered what you told me, keys. The last stop's the cemetery. I guess that was the first time I ever thought of Phyllis that way. Dead, I mean. And how it would be if she were dead. I saw Lola a lot that week. One night we drove down to the beach and all of a sudden she started to cry. It's Nino, Walter, Nino. I thought you weren't seeing him. I wouldn't tell anyone else but you. They killed my father together, Nino and Phyllis. He helped you do what I know he did. What makes you so sure? I've been following him. He's been to the house to see your night after night. Maybe he was just going with me as the blind and the night of the murry.  Oh, maybe I'm just crazy. Maybe it's all in my mind. Sure, sure, it's all in your mind. I still love him, Walter. I do love him. I do. Ziketti, man. Phyllis and Ziketti. This is one I couldn't figure out. I couldn't come close to it. But the real brain twister came today. You sprung in on me keys after hours when you caught me in the lobby of the building. Yeah, Walter. Yeah, what for? The deep fixin' case just busted right off and the guy showed up, the guy who helped to do it.  Yeah, she just filed suit against us to collect 100 grand. Well, that's okay by me. When we get her into that courtroom, I'm going to tear her to pieces.  I sure like one keys, but I've got a date. Huh? Somebody better looking than me? That Margie day, man. Yeah, well, I'll bet she still drinks from the bottle. I went back to the office. I was scared stiff. Maybe you were playing cat and mouse with me. Maybe you knew all along that I was the somebody else. I had to find out. And I knew where to look, your desk. The cylinder from the office recorder. The confidential message you've dictated to the boss already for the girl to type out in the morning. I put the cylinder on the machine and listened. Dear Mr. Norton, with regard to your proposal to place Walter Neff under surveillance, I disagree, absolutely. I've known Neff vehemently for 11 years and personally vouched for him with our reservation. The man we want is Nino Zacchetti. We've definitely established a connection between Zacchetti and Phyllis Dietrichsen as indicated in detail in the attached file. I strongly urge that this whole matter be turned over to district attorney. I telephoned Phyllis. I told her I'd have to see her that night. She was a hard sale. She was scared of you, please. I know that's all. I'll tell you when I see her. 11 o'clock? Okay. And then, for the first time, I saw a way to get clear of the whole mess I was in. And of Phyllis, too. What I didn't know was that she had plans of her own. Walter, can you see? Yeah. Hello, baby. Anybody else in the house? No, nobody. We're all alone, huh? I just came to say goodbye. Goodbye? Where are you going? You're the one that's going. Why don't you stop being funny? Let's have it, whatever it is. A friend of mine's got a theory. He says when two people commit a murder, they have to go on riding together to the end of the line. And the last stop is the cemetery. Baby, he's got something there, Walter. Only I've got another guy to finish my ride for me. Nino Zacchetti. Really? It's been you and that Zacchetti guy all along, hasn't it? No, no, that's not so. And it doesn't matter now. The point is, he believes Zacchetti's the one he's been looking for. He'll have to ask chamber before he knows what's happening. And me, Walter, what's happening to me all this time? Really, baby? You helped him do the murder. That's what Key thinks and what Key thinks is good enough for me. Maybe it's not good enough for me, Walter. Maybe I don't go for the idea. Maybe I've had Zacchetti here so they won't get a chance to trip me up, so we can get the money and be together. That's cute, baby. Say it again. He came here first to ask where Lola was. I made him come back. I was working on him. I kept hammering into him that she was going out with another man, so he'd go into one of his jealous rages, and then I'd tell him where she was. And you know what he would have done to her. Yes. I believe he has just rotten enough. We're both rotten. Is what you've got cooked up for tonight any better? The window's open. Do you mind if I close it? Why don't you? Yes, Walter. It's you or me, isn't it? What else can I do?  You'd better try it again. Take it. Take the gun. I think I will. Why didn't you shoot me again?  No, I never loved you, Walter. Not you or anybody else. I used you just as you said. That's all you ever meant to me. Until now when I... I couldn't fire that second shot. I... I never thought that could happen to me. Sorry, baby. I'm not buying... I'm not asking you to buy. Just hold me close like this, Walter. Hold me close. Goodbye, baby. I killed her keys. I killed Phyllis. But maybe her aim hadn't been so bad after all. I felt funny. Lightheaded and... and blurry. But I made it keys all the way here to the office. It's almost 4.30 now. And keys, I... I want you to do me a favor. I want you to be the one to tell Lola... kind of gently but... before it breaks wide open. I want you to take care of him. That guy's a kitty. So he doesn't get pushed around too. As for me, I... The keys? Oh, pretty early, aren't you? What are you doing here? The Night Watchman phone seems you left a trail. I wouldn't be surprised. How long have you been... been standing over there? Long enough. Well... Now I suppose I get the big speech. Go ahead, keys. Let's... let's have it. You're all washed up, Walter. No, thanks. That was short anyway. I'm going to call a doctor. What for? So I... So I can walk all the way to the gas chamber under my own power? Something like that, Walter? Look, keys... keys, I... I've got a different idea. Yeah? I suppose you went back to bed... and didn't find out anything until that I'm... Would you do that for me, keys? Give me one good reason. I need four hours to get where I'm going. You're not going anywhere, Walter. You want a bet? I'm going across the border. How's this, keys? I'm... I'm up on my own two feet. Walter, you haven't got a chance. You'll never even make it to the elevator. So long, keys. I'm much obliged. Send an ambulance to the Pacific Building on Olive Street. Yeah, it's a police job. Only... somebody moved the elevator a couple of miles away. They'll be here soon. You know why you couldn't figure this one, keys? Because the guy you were looking for was... was too close to you. He was right across the desk from you. Closer than that, Walter? Yeah. I love you, too. The curtain falls on double indemnity, and, as usual, Barbara Stanwyck and Fred McMurray contributed splendid performances. Barbara, as I recall, you were a blonde in the picture of double indemnity. Yes, Dale. I always wondered how I would look at the blonde, and I found out. Then I decided to let nature take its course again. Oh, but not with your complexion, I hope. No, no, I'm very careful with my complexion. I always use Lux's toilet, sir.  Oh, yes indeed, friend. What have you been doing? Well, I've been making a picture at RKO, or Skeely, a never-a-dull moment with Irene Dunn. That's the title, never-a-dull moment. Well, I've been at MGM making to please the lady with Clark Gable, and, brother, that wasn't a lot. For instance, I... Look, Barbara, tomorrow night's Halloween, and if you don't let me say something, I'll set fire to your broom. Now, wait a minute. Isn't anybody going to let me say something? Barbara, didn't you just return from the premiere of your new picture? Yes, it was held in Indianapolis, and I certainly had a wonderful time. It's all about automobile racing, you know. Imagine going all the way to Indianapolis every year just to see those speed racers. Well, that is hard to understand with Wilshire Boulevard just around the corner. What's just around the corner for next week, Bill? More excitement? Yes, Barbara, we think it's one of the most eventful nights of our season. First, the play is a powerful love story. David O. Selznick's a mortal screen version of Rebecca. And our stars, two of the most famous, making their first appearance together on our stage. England's brilliant actor-director and his lovely lady. Need I say more? Lawrence Olivier and Vivienne Lee. Oh! Good night, and come back again soon, both of you. Who is this Hollywood star? One of Hollywood's smallest actresses. She looks even younger than her 21 years. She tips the scale at 95 pounds, keeps her waistline a sensational 20 inches. Such a tiny package must be Wanda Hendricks. That's right, John. Because of her small size, Wanda has even her lingerie made to order. Loves being able to choose unusual shades for slips and nighties. She's very definite about their care. Insists on luxe flakes for her personal things. She won't tolerate ordinary washing methods that might fade colors. As Hollywood stars know, gentle luxe care keeps pretty slips and nighties colorful as new three times as long. Take one to Hendricks' tip. Give all your lingerie that lovely luxe look. Get a big box of luxe flakes tomorrow. Leave our brother's company the makers of luxe toilet soap. Join me in inviting you to be with us again next Monday evening. When the Luxe Radio Theatre presents Lawrence Olivier and Vivian Lee in Rebecca. This is William Keely saying goodnight to you from Hollywood. They're all aware of the vital importance of religion in American family life. Religious education stabilizes the family and makes for better citizens. We urge you and your family to attend and actively support your church. Take your problems to church this week. Millions leave them there. Heard in our cast tonight were Bill Conrad as keys, Rhoda Williams as Lola, Bill Johnstone as Norton, and Robert Griffin, Howard McNeer, Norman Field, Eddie Marr, and Virginia Agnello. Our play was adapted by S.H. Barnett and our music would be by Woody Schrager. This is your announcer, John Milton Kennedy, reminding you to join us again next Monday night to hear Rebecca starring Lawrence Olivier and Vivian Lee.


Hi everyone, this is Cheryl from the CNCF. I want to welcome you to a really special interview that I've been looking forward to for a very long time. So as you probably know, I work with the end user community, the CNCF end user community. This is the 140 top companies and startups who are adopting cloud native. And end users are a huge focus for CNCF now and going forwards. So we've decided to bring on somebody to work with me on end users. And I'm absolutely delighted to announce that Katie Gamangie is joining CNCF. So Katie, welcome. Hi, it's really, really great to have you here. Thank you, Cheryl. I am really excited to be part of officially being part of the CNCF. So I'm looking forward to this.  So in fact, why don't you sort of tell people a little bit about how you got started, how you got into software engineering and then into DevOps and Kubernetes? Right. I think this is a good question because this is pretty much highlights my motivation to be part of the community. When I joined the infrastructure world, that's how it was called at the time. It was quite abrupt because out of university, I wanted to have kind of a straightforward programming job and I was trained for that. I did like all the exercises, I did all the courses for that, joined my first grad job, and apparently I had to be part of the automation team that was the name of it. And I had to do a lot of onboarding to the new platform. And this has been a complete, I wouldn't say disaster, but it was such a novel experience for me. I was not prepared for that from being completely 100% code to be something which is, oh, you have servers and you have to put them together and you have to do something out with them. And more importantly, you have to onboard people on top of it. It was, it was a very unique experience at the time. And I think my transition was actually quite abrupt. It wasn't as smooth. I was not prepared for this kind of world. But at the same time, I realized that there is a very good dynamic to the infrastructure platform world. And I got curious. So the more I was in that role, the more I kind of understood that I really want to do this. And throughout the roles, I kind of tried to look for the good technologies to work with. And that's how I, when I moved to Conde Nast, that was my first job to do actual containers and keep it in production. It was a lot of public cloud experience, something which I was really looking forward to. And that was the job which not only gave me the right experience, but during that time, I was really involved with the community. Actually, I got to be involved more with the community. And the more I actually had this tendency, the more I was like, I want to be closer to it. And I did it for different ways. At the beginning, I was just looking at people, what they do, looking at reading blogs, looking at the talks. And then slowly, slowly, but surely, I started to do that myself. And I am here in a position where I'm actually capable to really kind of nurture and grow a community further. So I'm really excited about that. I mean, I think that's awesome. I think you and I actually met in the end of 2017, probably, something like that. Yes. So it was the Cloud Native London. So we met at Cloud Native London, the conference. And I remember, I think you were sitting in a chair in the corner of the room. And I was wandering around, I didn't really know too many people. So I was like, I'm just going to go over and talk to her. So we got talking and I was like, huh, like she's really doing something really interesting. And so I think I invited you to speak at Cloud Native London, which is the meetup that I run, right? Precisely. I think that was a very, just a few words on that. That was a very kind of defining moment, one of the defining moments within my career, because throughout my journey, I've worked with different people. I've met different people. And I think that's one point where I got the guts. And I was like, I'm going to do a presentation. So pretty much that was my first presentation on the topic. And like on the infrastructure topic and Kubernetes and Cloud Native. And it was the first presentation I did by myself. So I was the only presenter on the stage. So it was a big milestone. So thank you for encouraging me to do that. I mean, I still remember you talked about HPAs and VPAs, right? Yes, HP and VPA, all the scalability in the cluster. Exactly. So that was awesome. And I'm really happy actually that you got into the community and you enjoyed speaking and you enjoyed sharing what you know with other people, because that's so important. This is how our community runs, right? People sharing what they know. So I think sharing is one of the things I really like to say is that everyone has a different, usually a different way of either explaining or a different point of view about a subject. And sometimes someone who is very knowledgeable, they don't have the skills to share all of that knowledge and vice versa. And I think that there's this kind of precious thing about everyone. They have their unique understanding and their way unique way of explaining. And that's when I realized that you don't necessarily need to have for years of experience to actually share something you're really passionate about and something which you want people to know about as well. And I think this is kind of extremely valuable and something which is really appreciated in the community lately. Exactly right, exactly right. So after you got into speaking, you know, you started to go into all these different conferences to speak, right? And then how did you end up joining the TOC, the Technical Oversight Committee? Right. Oh, I think, I think there's another milestone within my speaking career, if I can call it that way. Actually, when I was part of the Condenest, there was the Director of Engineering, Crystal Hirshan, and she was supposed to do a keynote for KubeCon in Barcelona that was in 2019 last year. And she wasn't able to do that. And because I started to do some kind of talks around the community in London, she just passed me this opportunity. I was completely stumbled. Like I couldn't believe that. And in the end, I did it. But I think that was the key point when I realized how big the community is and how much everyone could give to it. And from that, I started to meet more people. I started to do more conferencing, more kind of speaking. And the key point when I actually joined the TOC was me being a bit more close to the CNCF staff. So to be honest, I didn't knew about all the components within the CNCF organization, I think, as an end user, or even like as someone who wants to kind of approach the industry, there is a lot of moving parts. And you don't really understand where exactly to go and what exactly to do if you would like to contribute. At the time for me, it was still a mystery. It was, well, there's definitely enough information, but it's just looking for it and kind of having those leverage points. And I do remember like getting close to the CNCF staff a bit more, kind of started to talk. And there was, at the time, it was December last year, the TOC elections were around. And I was advised to apply because I was doing a lot of talks on, at the time, I was doing the cluster API talks. It was just emerging. It's been around for half a year. I was doing talks about it. I was really excited about it. I was talking about Federation. And I really wanted to give this context of you can use these tools. And this is how you use these tools in real infrastructure rather than having a demo of something which is quite vendor itchy in a way. And from that, actually, someone approached me, advised me to apply. Never thought I'm going to get it, but I actually was like, I was extremely, extremely happy. It happened actually to me to find the results. Once I had my first day at American Express that this day when I found out that I'm going to be a TOC as well. So I had like a double beginning for like different roles as well. Really excited about that. But even like the more I started to understand about the TOC and what they do, the more excited I got about it because it really, it's kind of a key point where you really can collect feedback and you can actually apply that feedback. So it's kind of a position where you can really shape the community, especially the CNCF landscape because at the moment it's ginormous and it's great. It's great to see what this is doing. But to understand like which tool is actually has the right governance, which project is healthy in terms of contribution, which project actually is able to put the missing piece within the ecosystem. This is something which the TOC will be able to further leverage or accentuate further. So the more I kind of started to do that, the more I appreciated all the work for it and kind of the entire motivation to have this kind of TOC body as well. I think that's amazing and I think you've been absolutely fantastic on the TOC.  It is hard to figure out where to use your time and where you can best share what you know. And I think through the TOC, you've really brought through the voice of the end user because you represent the end user community. So let me ask you like, what do you think? What do you see end users caring about? What's on the mind of end users right now? So I can say that from the perspective of being in two companies with two different kind of goals for their infrastructure. We've condensed, we had something which we need to create from scratch. So we had a green field and we were able to choose the best for our infrastructure at that point in time. And I'm working currently for American Express and well, looking to move away, but at this stage, American Express looks to transform rather than kind of bring something completely new from scratch. So how about you do this transformation and migration process? And from both of these companies, it's really interesting to see a desire to move forward. A desire to not necessarily transform their technology, but usually if they want to move forward with their business logic or if they want to grow their customer base, they need to accelerate. And usually to accelerate means you have to bring changes to your technology as well. And seeing that is like, it's all about kind of the underneath stream. It's how can you get more value to the customer faster and usually that goes very hand in hand with the technology as well. And likely it goes hand in hand with cloud native technology because it goes so fast. There's such an enormous amount of tooling, as I mentioned, it's really, it's really catering for different unique features and unique kind of requirements. Now with the end users, what they really care about is how can they reach that acceleration point? How can they deliver value to the customers? How can they deploy faster if you're talking about the actual operations within an infrastructure team? How can they really leverage the product? And the tooling, I think, from that is about the tooling and the tooling at the moment, it really satisfies those needs there very well. And they want to understand it better. They want to understand how they use it for it. And this is just the moment, just reaching that acceleration point is just one step. You have to continually do that. And I think this is where there is this desire to further grow and to further introduce the tooling and explore. And that's why I think the end users are always kind of on the look. They always like looking, what's the next thing that we need to introduce? So the next thing which is actually going to help us to do what we do but better. And just following from that, where do end users look for information about what's coming next? I think they look everywhere. Honestly, they look everywhere. I think it depends on the, obviously it depends on the financial budget a company has or a team has. It depends on the amount of resources they have in terms of engineers. But usually, depending on the problem, they either look at vendors or they look within like actually GitHub and looking for projects to do things. And I think it's kind of two main streams. They're obviously different ways. But the better way to really kind of grow your kind of vision and perspective is like for this conferencing. And this is quite important because it's impossible to know everything what's happening there. And it's impossible to like do the magic keyword search and Google and going to find a project. Or even the vendors like, well, if you have the money, you can go for them and they're going to do cater a solution for you. But still like nowadays, it's all about how can you do things. But sometimes in a cheaper way as well, they want to use open source. There is the desire to do open source regardless. And I think going back to the point how what is the best way to find about new projects, I think conferencing lately has been a very good quality. And I think it's happening maybe from my perspective, I've been quite active in this conferencing world for maybe a year and a half, two years. And there is a lot of kind of connection points I've made with people using different, the same technology, but in different contexts or with, for example, teams coming and showcasing their infrastructure or showcasing any tooling. So I think from that perspective, this was a very good way to get that concentrated amount of information about a infrastructure or about some tools within the infrastructure world. And you'd be able to, from that kind of concentrated amount to choose what's the best for you. And I think this concentration point is important because again, the internet is quite dispersed. There's a lot of things you can find and not all of them are going to work. But with the conferencing and with some like examples and demos, we'd be able to really see a good representation of how that works in a good company. Speaking of conferences, of course, we have KubeCon, CloudNativeCon coming up very soon in a couple of weeks. Do you remember your first KubeCon? How was that experience? I just got the chills, just remembering that multiple line. I think that was another very defining moment within my career. So it was in Seattle, it was in North America, and I think it was in 2018 in December. And I got a scholarship, a diverse scholarship. That was great. So I applied for a scholarship. I really wanted to be part of that because usually the companies have a very limited budgeting or a very limiting amount of time for someone to actually go and be part of conference. So at the time, I was like, I really hope for this diverse inclusion scholarship because I would actually have the financial resources to reach that place. And I was, I got it. I was extremely, I was extremely happy, but at the same time, I didn't know what to expect because it was my first KubeCon. I knew I want to understand more about Kubernetes and the tooling around it. But at the same time, I didn't know what to expect out of it. And I do remember even now it was the first day, it was the first keynote. And I walked in, I was slightly late, so I was kind of in the back, but I think that was part of the experience. I walked in and this was like ginormous room with thousands of people generally. There was this black and blue background and there was Kelsey Hightower giving a keynote. And I think I, even now I'm getting the chills, honestly, that was such an iconic moment for me. I realized how big this community industry is and how much interest there is for people to connect and to understand more. And from that moment, I was like, I want to do that one day as well. So for me, I want to be, for example, on the keynote stage and delivering that kind of talk and value to the industry in the community. And I actually got to do that and it was absolutely amazing. But that I think I was like, wow. And throughout the, the conferencing as well, I was, I was quite concerned that I'm going to be by myself. And there is a lot, obviously the first thing was to attend talks and kind of understand more about industry. But at the same time, I was like, oh, I'm going to be by myself as well. So it's like, I was like, maybe not the best thing. But, uh, oh, I was wrong. I met so many people throughout. I actually met someone from of zero, I think, and we had lunches and we kind of shared our infrastructure use case. It was very chill. It wasn't anything with boosting off ego. Like, this is how I do Kubernetes and this is how we do things. It was such a kind of humble and modest kind of community could really, really approachable as well. And for a first, keep going for me, I think that was really, really important to actually feel part of the community. Even if it's ginormous, I was part of it. Even if I was not given the talk, I was still part of it. And I think that was something which really drilled me to eat more. And that's why I'm actually continuously trying to get closer to it. Yeah. That's actually so funny because it was very similar to my first coupon experience as well. My first one was Berlin. So 2017, I guess the same. No, that would have been Copenhagen 2016, 2017, something like that. I was also on a diversity scholarship. And I remember being in the keynote room. For me, I think Apana soon was my like, she was giving the keynote at that time.  So I agree with you, like KubeCon is a really friendly community. People are just so nice, so kind of welcoming, so open to talking about what they're doing. 100%. And this is something again, I've been part of this community for a couple of years now. And it's not like something, it's just the first impression. It kind of goes away. It's still there. I'm still really drawn to the community meetings, for example, because there's so much politeness in terms of who talks, people raise hands, people are very polite to everyone's opinion. And it's something which people do very voluntarily as well. It's not like they pay for that. They want to be part of that community. And they want to make it healthy as well for everyone to be part of that. And I really appreciate that. And the more I've been part of it, the more I could see this more defined and countered. And like, this is awesome. Honestly, I'm really kind of amazed by how far he got and kind of the personality kind of got to it as well. So of course, we have the next KubeCon coming up very shortly. And it's a virtual conference. So what are you looking forward to for KubeCon North America? So I think this one is going to be the second KubeCon virtually. I'm not going to lie, I'm still missing the in-person events. I think there is a different connection you could make with people.  It's terrible coffee, right? It's part of the experience. It's part of the experience. No one complains about that. It's part of the experience. But I think what I've seen through the first virtual KubeCon, there is a lot of movement in the Slack channels, the cloud native Slack channels. And there was a lot of movement in Twitter as well. So even if we couldn't be in person, I still could feel that connection. I could still be like, oh, we're watching the same thing and we have kind of opinions about it. Let's talk about it. And we still could have a level of connectivity even though it's not in person. So I'm looking forward to the same thing happening in NA. I'm really looking forward to kind of meet people, kind of look for their views on the new tooling or the new usage on the tooling. And I don't know, I'm just looking for a great experience. There's like a lot of good sessions already. I'm going to give two of them as well. So I think it's going to be awesome. That is really awesome. And going back a little bit, since we talked about diversity and women in tech, I know you really care about women in tech. And it's been awesome to see how you've grown from being an individual engineer, working on things to sharing what you know with the community and with the TOC. So do you have any advice for other women or the young people who are kind of up and coming and they want to break into DevOps or open source? I'm not sure if I'm entitled to give advice is because I think like there are so many different ways to reach a level of involvement. But I think the most important thing is do, do realize what you really like to do. Actually think about it.  Just think, do I really like my job? Like do I want to do this further? Do I want to grow in this position? And if the answer to those questions is yes, then that means that there is motivation. If there is motivation, there is like, especially with the cloud native community, I think there is a lot of kind of key individuals or key people you can reach to. If you want to, you can do that. Or you can actually even just look at what they do and try to reach out, try to connect. I think part of this is the thing like the community here is very open, try to connect. If you have that motivation, do try and kind of ask a question. Maybe try to collaborate on a TOC further or maybe try to understand more of about a TOC they gave. Things like that do reach out. They actually make the first step because not everyone is lucky enough to have someone take their part by the hand and be like, this is the stage, we can talk about that on it. Not everyone has that kind of privilege and sometimes you have to make the first step. And once you make that, the community is very welcoming. That's what I'm trying to kind of highlight here. And in terms of the new engineers, I think there is a lot of resources now and a lot of free resources as well. And this is what I really appreciate. You don't really need to pay hundreds and thousands of pounds to actually to get that knowledge about Kubernetes. There's a lot of good amount of resources you can have a very good foundation. Look out for those and again try to reach out. If you feel comfortable with what you do, if you like what you do, reach out. And if you'd like to further grow, there are possibilities. And there's always a good space within a company or within the community you can actually leverage your skills. So just think about what you really like to do and if you'd like to enhance that experience for you and for that your team may be for people around you and so forth. I definitely agree that that first step is really, it's really hard, but it's really important. Certainly for me, you know, coming from an engineering background as well, I also had that experience of like, you know, where do I begin? Where do I reach out to? So it is hard and I do want to reassure you like, you're not the only person sort of in the same in the same boat. And I also actually, I didn't want to imply that, you know, women are just junior engineers as well, because I also know there's a lot of women who are just, I respect them so much because they know so much and they're so good at what they do. So definitely also want to shout out to all the fantastic women who've been role models for me. 100%. Like, I've been, I've been at this point in my career because I've been, I've been empowered and I've been given some opportunities by some very good women within like the industry. So I really appreciate that. And again, a really big shout out to them. And just, I just want them to keep doing what they do. Yeah. So coming background to the beginning, you are joining CNTF. In fact, today will be your first day when this video is released. And I know that you'll be working with the end user community, but not in exactly an engineering role. So for you, like how do you feel about moving away from that kind of engineering? So I, I try to actually not see it moving away from engineering because I still have like, again, I had like the coffee in the morning and I was like, what do I enjoy doing? And I, I did realize that I really enjoy to be part of the community. I really want you to grow that and make space for more people to be part of this community. This is something which I'm really passionate about. And something which I'm really passionate about is I really still like to kind of get the tools, get a keyboard in this classroom, a local machine and try the new tooling around it. And I don't think I'm actually walking away from that. It's something like I've been doing regardless. So I feel like I'm going to have a focus more on the community, the end user community and specifically, and I'm going to look for what they do. I'm actually thinking to why not maybe apply that, try to, to put a demo together, try to maybe somehow share that as an architecture and so forth. But I don't see it as moving away from engineering. I think it's quite crucial to still have that understanding of the ecosystem, understanding of the tooling. And I think this is something which will really help me to move forward with the role as well. So I think you still can go, go stand at hand. Like I don't feel like I'm giving up anything yet. So I'm just really excited to like focus a bit more on the community part, but still kind of get my, get my fingers into the cringe clusters and see what they're doing in the new releases. I mean, actually that's why I'm also really excited to work with you because you have had the end user experience of running Kubernetes at Condé Nast and at American Express and you're excited about all the new, the new tech that's coming out and you want to try it yourself. And I totally agree. Having that kind of connection with the engineering, with the, with how the tech works is absolutely critical. Precisely. And this is how what I actually tried to reach throughout this role as well. It's again, engineering should be there, at least for me. I like it. It's something which I enjoy to do. So I would like to do that further. But at the same time, there's the community, which actually has so much amount of like data and so much like things to share and so much kind of not one Kubernetes platform is the same. So it's always intriguing to see how they did their canvas of tooling, how what kind of things they use for different functionalities and so forth. So it's always something which is, for me at least, it's still quite enthusiastic and it's still intriguing for me to to look out for what they do and how they connect things together. Let me explain to people a little bit about how the end user community actually shares information because it's not public. It's, you know, a lot of it's private within the group. So perhaps people aren't certain about what this looks like. So you and I, we've been on the same course together for a couple of years now. So the course are usually they're on a single topic and usually two or three different companies present for five, 10 minutes on the same topic. So that everyone gets a different view of a couple of different views of how things are done. And then there's discussion Q&A. And then at the end of the call, there is voting. So people vote on the topic for the next call and people volunteer to speak as well. So sort of every two weeks or so, this is how the end user community gets together and keeps discussing what what things they're most interested in and getting sharing best practices. And like if I could add to that, I was so I was part of these calls more frequently as part of my TOC role. Condenast was part of the end users, but we had someone else joining the calls at the time. Now, so I didn't have that much exposure to these calls. With the TOC, I was actually part of the calls. And the first thing I was like, I was, again, I mean, I've been using this word a lot. I've been amazed as well because there is so much like people would actually share how they do things in their company. But there is again, like that politeness would be like the calls. Everyone was very welcomed, especially if you're a first time comrade, they're gonna welcome you would like to share a bit more of what you do and how you do. So actually, like from the first meeting, if you're new, you already kind of not like noticed and valued straight away. And again, like like the information that people share in the engineer shares, like, of course, quite useful. People actually talk about that they can vote on what they're interested in. It's not something which you said, and it's going to be this schedule for the next three months. People actually choose what they want to talk about, and they actually try to tailor those conversations they have for these meetings. And this is something which really helped me as a TOC to kind of approach this end user community better, but at the same time to understand what they they care about. And again, making everyone, everyone welcome. Again, big shout outs to everyone who've been doing that. I presume yourself and there's Henning and there is James James James James as well. Yes. So all of them they organized this meetings quite nicely. And it's really great to kind of feel welcome, but at the same time have the benefit of learning more as well at the same time. I mean, I'm really, really happy that you said that because I think when I started with CNTF, there was no end user community really. So it's been, you know, my last two years worth of work to get to this point where it's a genuine community. People share what they know. People care about being welcoming and, you know, having a nice atmosphere. And it's been, it's been a surprising amount of work, community work is a surprising amount of effort to get to the point now where people feel comfortable in that environment. So I'm really happy that you said that. I'm really happy to be part of it officially as well. Yeah, exactly. Last thing, anything that you're excited about coming up, you know, could be technical, could be anything. I think I am really excited about the further collaboration that is happening. Like this sounds some quite, quite common, but I'm really excited to like see the environment grow further from a technical point of view. So I'm really excited to see like the new releases and the new features. And I'm like, Oh, great, people want that. Finally, we have this. And of course, I'm really excited to, even like the current times do not allow us to meet in person, but I'm still looking to kind of still close the gap on how can meet and how can share information and make it a bit more personalized, not necessarily personalized, but make people to, to kind of be part of it, people to contribute, people just to be around and kind of be part of this entire ecosystem. So yeah, a very generic answer, but I'm really, really excited about that. Truly. So am I. So am I. I said, Katie, thank you so much for chatting with me today. And you and I are going to work really closely going forwards. So very, very excited to see what you do. Thank you, Cheryl. I'm really excited about this opportunity as well. Thank you so much. And see you, see you at KubeCon virtually and everybody else as well. Take care. Bye.


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