joined us live for today's episode. And Mary is back. She was with us previously, but has since launched a book. So Love Your Board is something that Mary Highland is going to share with us today, and we are really excited to have you back, Mary, and to share with us more about this book. So before we dive into that conversation, we of course want to extend our gratitude to our companies that support us, our presenting sponsors. You know, we love on you every day, every episode, and we really today for National Nonprofit Day want to say thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Julia would be right alongside me saying this as well. But we are so grateful to have your generosity, your commitment, not only to the nonprofit show, but truly to the sector at large. Again, you know, 1.8 million nonprofits in the US. So if you have not checked out our sponsors, please make sure you do. They are phenomenal companies providing phenomenal products and support to help you do more good. So please do check them out. Julia Patrick, of course, has given me the reins for the week. She is working with a client all week to our today this week. So Julia will be back. And I, of course, I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as your nonprofit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And I've hyped you up, Mary, but I'm so excited to have you back again. Mary is author and consultant with Highland Consulting. Welcome, Mary. Thank you so much. It is just I'm just thrilled to be back and talk chat with you about the book. I really appreciate the opportunity. And also, I love that it's nonprofit day. How special? How special? I mean, we couldn't have planned that better. And so the book, you know, tell us a little bit about that. I don't know if you have one handy right next to you. I do. Here it is. Look at that. Love your board. So I'm sure this book, if it hasn't already, will be added to our book list because we do have a list of, you know, recommended books from many different talented authors. So Mary joins us today to talk a little bit about her book, but also why we need to love our board. And let's just let's start there, Mary.  But I am looking forward to learning from you. Oh, thank you. Well, you know, this question brought up something I had in mind when I was first writing the book and thinking, how are people going to interpret this phrase, love your board? And it really has a dual meaning, because there is the, why do we need to love our board implies why do we need to feel, to actively love as an action our board. But the focus of the book, I mean, that's not wrong, and that's in there. But the focus of the book is how you feel about the results you're getting from your board, that you just love your board. You know, when execs sometimes meet me, they say, well, I don't need you because I love my board. And I wish I heard that more often, frankly, but I don't. That's why I have a business at all. But it's so important that you, as an executive director, CEO, feel positive about your board, love your board, because what that means is that you're getting what your nonprofit deserves from your board, that your board is meaningfully engaged, that people are working collaboratively together, that you're providing the leadership your nonprofit needs, I could go on and on and on. And when boards are really humming and really collaboratively leading with their executive directors, they, your executive, you're going to love them. You're going to love them. And that's why it's important because it means you're getting the results you and your nonprofit deserve. Yeah, I love this. And you know, it's so important for us, I agree to love our boards and to I'm going to say love on our boards as well, right? Yes. Yes. Because there's a reason that they said yes to serving our organization, being an advocate for our cause. And so, you know, that values are really good. Why? What happens when we don't love our board? Well, the there's again, there's two dimensions to this for the same thing. If we don't care about our boards, if we don't invest in our board, you know, you may not think of that as loving your board, but you know, executives, you have a lot of demands, you know, tons of demands. And for you to love your board means for you to invest time in having a fabulous board for your nonprofit. And when you don't, you miss out on all the benefits that we know an effective board creates for your nonprofit, community engagement, more resources for your nonprofit, your reputation, just all those things not to mention the kind of support and encouragement and investment of energy in you that you deserve as an executive. So the bottom line is that when boards are not, when you don't love your board, either invest in your board or you don't love them because they're not doing what they should be doing, it means things aren't working and you're losing just huge loss for your nonprofit, huge loss for your mission, huge loss for the community and all of us, because it's not what it could be. The potential is unrealized. What about like some, what are some of the ways, and I'm curious if your book gets into this, but what are some of the ways that we can invest in our board? Do you give us some tangible ideas or could you give us some now? Oh, absolutely. Let me quickly share a little about the framework that's in the book, though, the model is that, you know, the book is about recognizing problems correctly first, because if you jump in to solve something with your board and you don't really understand what the underlying issue is, you're going to spend a lot of time in effectively. So I have found over my career and with my research actually that every problem you could possibly have with your board, and I know that's a bold statement, every problem you possibly could have with your board falls into one of three categories, capacity, connection and culture. And those are the three areas that we, that I explore in the book. And I give you examples of what kind of problems might come up and why they fit there, but also what you can do about those problems. So it's a little more focused on here's an issue, here's what to do about it. But overall, of course, executives invest in their board by spending time both one on one with individual board members with the group strategically with your board chair, making sure that you're all aligned in together. But too often I have found that executives come to me and that and that's one reason that I wrote the book. Executives come and say, you know, my board needs to go to the next level, even if there isn't a huge problem, but or this is going on, they don't understand the roles and responsibilities. I hear this a lot. Just come and do a training. Well, you know, that might work. It might. But a lot of the times there's more going on than that. And just doing a training isn't going to fix it. So that's a capacity solution. But I've seen capacity solutions spread into connection, which is about the relationships, dynamics and the culture areas. And it won't work there for sure. That helps. And this is for all of you that watch none of this is scripted. This is a true genuine conversation. Yes, it is. What have you seen, honestly, Mary over the last 18 months, right? Because so many of us, as we said in our chibi chat chat, this is uncharted territory. And literally, it's like every day is a new day. And not just that we start again, but it's like, there's another obstacle, you know, there's there's another hurdle in our way. How is this really impacting or affecting, if you will, that board dynamic? Well, it's been very interesting. I don't, of course, see all the boards in, you know, the whole United States. I do have an executive group that works with me once a month. And we actually started in March of 2020. So we've kind of lived together this whole impact and watched boards. In some cases, it's just like anything else. Every board is unique. And every board is going to react differently. I haven't seen a one size fits all answer to this. But I have seen a couple of situations where boards way overreacted, way overreacted. In one case, they even let the executive director go cut the organization basically in half, because they were totally panicked.  The other thing that I've heard that I've been very encouraged about is boards really stepping up and saying to the executive, what do you need? How can we help? And most of the executives in my group were fundraising is important to them. They actually raised more money over COVID and they didn't necessarily have fancy events. They didn't. I mean, online events, obviously. But that was a surprise to me. People were stepping up. People were stretching others. The boards have been there for their executives. I know one who operates a center for people with dementia, they had to shut down. Now you can imagine what that was like for caregivers who called this executive every single day to say, when are you opening? You know, because their loved ones were at home with them now all the time. My heart just the resilience. This was representative of the resilience I saw in executives. And their boards were, I think, many of them blown away and stepping up because of it. I love to hear the success stories, right? And there's been so many in our sector. And again, happy National Nonprofit Day, because today is National Nonprofit Days. And I really feel like we have a lot to celebrate. We have so many helpers in our community. And the story that you just told about the board stepping up and helping to raise more money than maybe they have in the past, because I just want to make note of that, Mary, because I'm sure you've heard it too. But oftentimes in our sector, we hear people say, we cannot get our board to fundraise, right? We don't think that they are meant to fundraise. They're supposed to fundraise. They're fearful of fundraising.  You had mentioned the framework in your book, Mary, in particular, and you talked about, you know, identifying some of these problem areas and those three C's, which I really like. But let's talk about now, if you don't mind, how long does it take to determine those problem areas? What does that look like? Well, I think, and, you know, I'll shamelessly plug the book here. I think that if executives and board members, too, or get this book, they'll learn about what are these kinds of problems and which dimension of the board do they fit in? And diagnosing them, once that awareness hits, once you've read about the stories and what has happened with others, then awareness means you can figure out the problem immediately if it's going on in your board. But I would say the capacity problems are going to be easier for you to figure out. Each one of these areas has two dimensions, a people dimension and a process dimension. So for capacity, it might be, do you have the right people on your board? Do you have enough people on your board? Do you probably know that already? But you may not know what to do about it. And then the process side is does your board have all the policies, practices, procedures, all that stuff in place it should have its own infrastructure. Does it have a good meeting infrastructure? That's all the capacity stuff. And I think you probably recognize those issues pretty quickly. When you get to connection and you look at the people side, it's all about relationships, your relationship with your board chair, your relationship with the board as a whole, and board members of relationships with each other. And it may not be as easy to see that there's an underlying issue in the relationship. So it may take a little longer for you to figure that out, but I'm hoping the book gives people insight so that that happens faster. On the process side of relationships, it's all about how is your board as a team? Are you working together as a team? What does that look like? And you're part of the team as the executive director. So there's a lot of information in there will help you. I would say culture is the hardest to diagnose because by definition, we are unconscious of culture, our own, our organizations, and certainly our boards, every board has a culture. And what a culture is, is what you for for the board and its activity, what are they doing and what is what they're doing, saying about their values and their beliefs, we know and think of culture as values and beliefs, but they play out in our behavior. And if we say one thing and we don't walk the talk, that's not really our culture. So you have to go a lot deeper to go there and that can take more time. Have you seen the culture shift over the last 18 months as well? Like is that something maybe with the board, the organization? Because I feel like all of us, all of us living right now are just getting pelted from every direction. How has that shifted culture? You know, I couldn't say I have an example because I haven't been in boardrooms. I think you have to observe culture. You have to be around for a while. But I will say that I think this whole last period has shaken our assumptions and beliefs to the core. And I think the opportunity has been for people and boards and executives, even with their own teams and organizations, to think about what assumptions have we been operating under? What have we believed to be true? That maybe isn't going to be true anymore.  We thought we had to be in person all the time to have an impact with our clients. Now we know that's not true. So I think the big culture shift, if you want to call it that, for boards and for organizations as a whole, is this challenge that this terrible time has put us through. And hopefully you have questioned everything about how you do what you do, why you do it the way you do, and really getting at that underlying culture in a new way. So I think there's been an opportunity in that regard to help us get better and stronger. And most of my execs in my group are saying they're going to continue some practices. They're not getting rid of everything and going back to the way things used to be. Right. And you had said it earlier about the resiliency that has really shown up, and I'm going to say stepped up, you know, is that level of resiliency. I feel like in the sector at large, most of us are the ones that run towards the fire, right? If there's something going on, what's going on? We need to help. We need to be there. And so, you know, that's also in the chitty chat chat, I had said like, so many of us are becoming exhausted. Like we are hitting that exhaustion because the fire is still burning. That's right. The fire has not let up. No. And it's starting to flame again. And it's scary. It's scary. Yeah, it is scary. And so I think when it comes to, you know, the culture and the board and the resiliency, like so much of that, I think it's just really at its peak and it continues to either stay at its peak or like inch another degree higher, another degree higher. Which is just, I mean, to me, it's truly all inspiring, all of the work that is being done. So your book talked a little bit, our talks, I want to say, because it still does and all of you can get this a copy of it. But it talks about, you know, how long it might take to determine these these problem areas. But what about the repair, right? Like, how long does it take once we've identified one of the three C's and you said, so there's three C's, but each C has a two part. Is that right? Right. People and process. So it depends on where your issue is. Again, it depends on what it is. You know, you'll know that people problems are going to take longer to fix. If you have a trust problem, for example, trust is huge in the connection area. Trust with your board, trust with your board chair, board members trust with each other. If that needs to be repaired, first of course, you got to recognize it. And then second, you've got to rebuild trust and that takes time. So that's just one example. But I want, you know, I want our listeners to know that there are tools, real tools that work that are evidence based things that I'm just not making up out of my head that I have seen work and no work from others studies that are in this book about how to address these problems. So this, I hope would be useful to you. And instead of spinning your wheels and taking a lot more time than it should, this should help you cut to the chase, first recognize the problem for what it really is, and then be able to intervene effectively. And that's going to save you time one way or the other. Culture, again, takes more time because, again, to be aware of what your underlying beliefs are, you know, there's been a lot out there about racism, bias and equity. And that isn't something that people around the boardroom are just going to say, oh, yeah, we know we're biased. And this is how it shows up. And so we better stop doing that. That is going to take some digging. And that is going to take some time. And people may not even acknowledge. We all know that people are going to not acknowledge some of these underlying cultural issues. So you may not be able to fix everything, not certainly right away. Not until people change and turn over on your board. But so I hate to have to say it's going to depend how long it takes. But I'm confident that the strategies in the book will help it take less time than it would otherwise. And what about money? Because I hear that a lot, right? It's like, it's not just the time, but like, we don't have that in our budget, or we can't afford that. And so how does your book maybe talk a little bit about those financial investments or the financial restraints when it comes to identifying these problem areas and then having the repair time? Well, actually, it doesn't. So I just want to acknowledge that. To me, these are all things that people can do together. And while time is money, I do acknowledge that it isn't that you have to go invest in a consultant to get any of this done. I'm hoping that I'm, as one of my readers said, you're the coach speaking to me in my ears, I'm reading this book is that you can use that for that. But I will also mention that I've created a lot of resources. So you don't have to spend the time getting this board policy or that board policy. And when you get the book, there's a link to all those resources that you will have access forever. And I will be adding to it. And that those resources are probably worth about $1,900. I was downplaying that, but several people said, are you kidding? So, so there's a lot of value there, too, that will help you not have to reinvent the wheel. That's something I really want to save you time. And that is, that is so important. And I was hoping to get to your, your book slide. Here it is. Love your board, the executive director's guide to discovering the sources of nonprofit board troubles and what to do about them. And so this, tell us where we can get the book, Mary, because I'm curious, I know I need a copy. You know, this sounds like something absolutely that I will be referencing often with my clients. I love the three C's. I love the people in process. I mean, it just makes total sense. So, so tell us more about, about your book, where we can find it. You can. I know, I'm sorry, I'm to interrupt you. I'm curious, is this something every board member should have a copy of? I think every executive director should have a copy of it. I think that I would want my board to have a copy because they can be partners in identifying and solving the problems. The book is written to executive directors, but I have had, and you can see the reviews on Amazon. I've had people read it who are not executives who are on boards who are saying I wish I had had this early on. The book is available anywhere books are sold to Amazon for sure. There's a Kindle version. You can go to my website, Highland, H-I-L-A-N-D, consulting.org, and just click on the link and it takes you right to the page in Amazon. But it's available anywhere books are sold. One of my clients bought it from her local bookstore. She ordered it. So it's out there. It's available. It's very affordable. So I hope people will see it as a resource and a reference. Even experienced execs with strong boards. You may not feel you need something like this right now. It's not only about broken boards. It's about, in fact, it's not primarily even about that. It's about taking your board to the next level, really unleashing the potential of your board. So it can be a reference book for any experienced executive too. I was going to say, wouldn't it be nice if our board never broke, right?  Right. Let me share that. But there's one point that your comment triggered when you said boards breaking. There is a little section in the book about how boards get better. And I did some research on, okay, you know, we know what a good board looks like, but how do they get there? And the critical success factors for how boards get better is in the book. But there's also good news. I did some follow up. And when boards get better, they do not necessarily slide backwards. Improvements are very well sustained. So just wanted to say that. But I'm so glad you did. Yeah. Yeah. So writing the book, actually sitting down and getting started, it was 18 months to write the book. But I actually had done the research that underlies the books over many years. And I always said, Oh, I need to write a book, but I'm in books, but I never had my own. And I really felt I needed to be called for my own voice, my own message, because there's a lot of books out there about how tos for boards. I didn't want to write that book. That book isn't needed. I wanted to write the book that was going to empower executive directors and give them confidence and to encourage them to be willing to invest in having the best board they can have. You know, I believe nonprofit executives are amazing leaders, or at least they could be amazing leaders. And leadership is what this is all about, both for the board and for you as an exec. So I, there's huge amounts of detail, which is not part of this conversation about how to get a book published, how to do layout, how do I learned just a huge learning curve for me. So it's so much more. And I want to thank, you know, please read the acknowledgments in the book, because there were people who made a huge difference for me. So well, thank you so much, Mary. You make a huge difference into our community. So grateful. There is a reason you have PhD behind your name. So, so excited to get my hands on this book and thank you more about love your board. So thank you so much again for all the great work that you do, and all the great work that you've put together as a resource and a reference for so many other executive directors to navigate through their board relationship. So we are so grateful. Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I would like to honor and say thank you to Julia, especially for National Nonprofit Day for all the great work that she does with the American Nonprofit Academy and having this wonderful slash bananas idea way back in March. So we are 350 plus episodes strong for the non-profit show. I'm Jarrett Ransom, also known as the non-profit nerd, CEO of the Raven Group. I'm so grateful to be alongside Julia and all of you for this journey of the non-profit show. We could not continue these shows without our presenting sponsors. So again, please do check out the sponsors. You can find all of them online. They're very active social media and just the internet in general. But again, I want to extend my sincerest appreciation on National Nonprofit Day and each and every other day. Just thank you for all that everyone is doing to strengthen our communities across the globe. It is so important that we continue to stay together, walk together, support one another, lean into one another so that we can all continue to do more good in our communities. So again, thank you so much, Mary Hyland, for joining us today. And thanks to all of you who have joined us for today's live episode or the recording. You can find us pretty much just say the non-profit nerd and we show up in your living room. It's almost that close. But please do join us again tomorrow. And as we end every episode and we have for the last 350 plus, please stay well so you can do well. Thanks again, Mary. Thank you. Thank you.