Welcome. It's time for our first hot topic. And surprise, surprise. The return of fuel subsidy as federal government reportedly paid 169.4 billion Naira in August of this year, that's last month, where in September. International crude prices is almost a hundred dollars, a barrel, and despite the continued depreciation of the Naira, the pump price of fuel in the country continued to remain the same. Suggesting a return of subsidy. A document by the Federal Account or Location Committee, FAC, cited by reporters, showed that NNPC is allegedly now using the NLNG dividends to pay subsidy. We have been joined by Chief Okadike Chinedu. He is the national PRO of Ipman. Ipman, they are being the independent petroleum marketers association of Nigeria. Good morning to you Chief Chinedu. Good morning Nigerians. Well Chief, let me just tell you now, I'm going to ask you questions that concern Ipman and questions that do not concern Ipman, but have to do with oil. I hope you don't mind. Yeah, I'm an independent marketer and also I'm a Nigerian, so I think I'm capable to answer those questions. Alright, so tell us how first of all, is subsidy back? Yeah, subsidy is back, but I don't think it's fully back. This is what I call, in my own opinion, what is subsidy? That is why I have semi subsidy, because if you look at the statement, I have a review of the statement of the GMD of NNPC, Karen, he said that the price of petroleum, domestic petroleum products in Nigeria will be determined by the rates of crude oil in the international market, and also the rates of dollar forex, forest exchange in Nigeria. So it will also relatively understand that as far as the dollar continues to show against the Naira, it means that the petroleum product, the domestic petroleum product here in Nigeria will be determined by the price of dollar. So, and if that is so, the new team, whereby the president announced the total removal of subsidy on the premium motor spirit that is PMS, it was also taxed as a dener at 400 or something Naira, you know, Palita, to 500 depending on where the product is coming from. And also remembering that with that announcement and the move of subsidy, the issue of petroleum impolization is gone. So every expenses or logistics incurred in terms of bringing petroleum products to the retail outlets will be imputed in the expound price. So that is why during that period of time, petrol was packed at 500 something to 400 something. And now the dollar continues to rise, and when the dollar continues to rise, NNPCL and some other market also imported petroleum products also decided to be able to review the prices of petroleum products. And PMS was fairly reviewed at 500 to almost 600 and there's something that depending on where the original update is. So with that, that does not also help the Naira. The Naira constitute a nosedive against the dollar. Now in the parallel market, the dollar is almost exchanging at 990 Naira as against the Naira. And if you look at the template whereby this product was packed at when the dollar was 750, it was also for that imperative that the price of petroleum products will also be reviewed. And it will also increase. But now that the thing has half its cost-effective effects on the economy of the country and the goods and commodity and services in the country, and the price of diesel is also going higher and higher, because we are using a lot of dollar to import these products. Almost virtually 60% of our consumption and the services in this country are also driven by dollar. Let me ask you something, Chief. Does the NMPC do crude for PMS swap? No, not at all. They do not. Because that's some of the understanding we have, which is making one wonder why if NMPC does crude for PMS swap and earns in dollars, why are we suffering from the increasing effects? But you are saying that they do not. Well, that is something like a crude swap. Because the other companies, because the market was deregulated, NMPCL as an independent company imports their own diesel. They also import their own PMS. Everybody who imported their own PMS did not struggle with crude. So for the best of my knowledge, as well as crude swap, Nigerians are selling their crude and we are importing these petroleum products. Alright, so what is the respite that Nigerians are going to get? What respite can Nigerians get with the way things are going? I think because of the dwindling and the high rate of inflation in the country, the Federal Government decided to come in a very subtle way to be able to look at the matching between the marketer's purchasing rate and also the difference of also being able to incur an economy. The position of the palliative cannot be able to work because if this continues like this, it means that the prices of commodities and services in this country will continue to rise. So that is why the Federal Government, you know, they just came in to see how they can be able to supply these petroleum products or they can get our refineries back on track. The only inertia to end this manoeuvre is to ensure that our refineries, Nigerian refineries are working. And once Nigerian refineries are working, when you remove all these forest charges and all the rest of them, you will find out that our products will not sell more than 450 palliative. Now, already they've spent 106.4 billion for August alone. And we are seeing that by December, by the time they continue to use all of this money to subsidize, we may be talking about trillions. The sad thing is all this money spent in subsidy in the past eight years, especially in the last administration, could have fixed our refineries. We're talking about 7.8 trillion narrows between 2015 and 2023. As a marketer in this country, tell us, why would you say that all this money that have been used to fix subsidy were not being used to effectively get our refineries working?  You know what's happening inside that sector. Why do you think, or what have you observed to be the reasons? And having observed these reasons, do you see Nigeria ever coming out of that darkness? During our positive forum with Mr. President, during this electronic campaign, he invited independent marketers and I was also opportunity to be there in that iterative section, whereby Comrade Adams of Seminichan chaired the meeting. We also appears to him that it is very, very important that our four refineries and our pipelines are ready before we talk about the issue of removing of subsidy. And the Comrade also informed us that the administration has a master plan to be able to remove subsidy without any effect on individuals or on the masses. And since then, we have also been linking to us looking at that magic, the dust-worker stick that can be able to bring in, remove subsidy without this adverse effect. The only issue that we have here is that the president need to come out fully with all strengths and with all specific directive, so NMPC. And he kind of declared a state of emergency on our refineries and ensure that these refineries are being delivered on or before January next year. Whereas we have a very serious problem, we have four refineries and none of them is working, whose amount of service are being paid. And I am aware that the Minister for Petroleum, Henneke Lopopri also visited these refineries almost reassuring us that the refineries will work on or before December period. Well, we are all hopeful as the independent marketer. I also want to tell you, we the independent marketers, we are also bearing our own product. This is a product that we buy at the rate of 8,100,000 for 45,000 liters of petroleum product. Now we are buying the same product at 25.7 million and this is also putting some of the independent marketers out of the business and the cost of mourning is even built into our profit. So you will find that most independent marketers are almost running up. You can find out as you try to manage. So independent marketers have systematic clues because of the huge amount of money being used to be able to buy petroleum product. For you to a kind of 20,000 to 30,000 tons of PMS now you will be talking about at something billion. This is a product that was being bought at 3.17 billion. Now it is around 3.17 billion. How many marketers have such facilities from back? They are able to use that something billionaire to just buy mainly 20,000 metric tons of PMS that was sold for 3.17 billion. Now you talk about the vessel. Most of the vessels that were used to take for 80,000 dollars. Now you can get it for 200,000 to 70,000 dollars as I am talking to you. So the difference is huge with the independent marketers and we that are the return analysts because we are the final breaking of the box to the consumers. All the causes, all the problems, all the witchcraft and the praises normally come the way that are in the box that are selling to Nigeria. They will say your father would do the same. But it is not our fault. We are also facing our own challenges. So that is the problem we are facing. We want to appeal to Mr. President to be able to ensure that this is our referendum working. Our platform is working. The roads are bad. I flew from Abuja to Potakot. Now to move from Potakot to you, it was so, so difficult. The roads are so bad. You can see tankers falling on the road, blocking the roads, trucks on the road. The wear and tear of military vehicles in Nigeria are so so high. All the parts that we use in this country are all imported. They are all dollar driven. So that is why you see that inflation is going so high in all ramifications. It's not only on the petroleum problem, even in electronics. Everything. Indeed, the effects are huge. Not just on you, the marketers, but on Nigerians. I mean Nigerians are buying fuel for 600 naira litre, 589, 757. And you were promised, according to you, by the then president, that all necessary measures will be put in place before the subsidy is removed. Obviously, none of those measures were put in place. And here we are, Nigerians are buying fuel at the cost at which they are buying. Nigerians had also hoped that with the coming of the Angoterofinery, that things will change. But that hasn't changed. Matter of fact, the newspaper today, the Guardian newspaper captures that Dangote, along with modular refineries, have abandoned petrol refining over return of subsidy. I don't think that is correct, because I am aware that even some modular refineries, Nigerian petrol refineries, and what has come to refineries, they are all refining petroleum products. I'm also speaking to you this morning. They are all loading. But the irony of all these things is that how have they been supplied with crude oil? What is the effort of federal government in trying to ensure that these modular refineries get crude oil at naira litre? At naira litre, not on dollar litre, not on dollar exchange. At naira litre, if we are domesticated petroleum products, but the crude oil is at naira litre, the products that we are looking for Nigerians, why are we also using dollar to pay for such a product? Because, you know, hearing you say that the modular refineries are refining, makes me wonder, and would make anyone ask, then why are we still buying fuel at the concepts that we are buying? What capacity are they refining, and which part of the country gets access to the ones that are refining? Yeah, the modular refinery, the NDPR, naira litre refinery, is located in Agoda. And what they are refining is only Kero and the HU. Their plant is not too big to be able to crack PMS. That is a problem. And most, they also have a problem of getting crude, because I have an interface with their management one or two times. They also have their serious challenges is how to get crude to their plant, because most of the oil waste around them are almost dry with crude. That is number one. And also number two is that their facilities, their facilities are not being expanded. I think that Ferragomel would have come into look at those facilities, look at what are Smith facilities, look at those facilities and see what they can be able to do, to see how they can also crack PMS.  Even if it's in a smaller quantity, it's in a lower quantity. And I also want to wonder why what are Smith and the NDPR who also be selling this oil are almost at the imported rate. So what we are all wondering, since they are also manufacturing here in Nigeria, they are also producing here in Nigeria, so why are they not selling this petroleum product, this HU at 900, it's on the very rest of it, as if they also imported it from foreign countries. This is our challenge, this is our market task. But our primary objective is to ensure that whatever products we get from all these refineries will be sold in our filling stations and sold to commuters. We are committed to ensure that we will continue to remain in business because we are also a businessman. We invested a lot of money in this one, this one filling station, and they didn't break into the state of acts that we can sell around the world to be able to sell to Nigeria's better. So we are also committed to remain in business and that is why we see us who will go to that refineries whatever price they give to us, we buy. What sort of meeting has taken place between the marketers, Ipman, and this new administration with regards to this situation you've painted? Well, I think we have written to Mr. President and we are also waiting for a response. You know, secret or visit, secret or discussions with him while he was campaigning, we visited him in his campaign office and what he also promised the different marketers. And I also believe that our letter has gotten to him. We are just waiting to be able to tell him the whole side of the story and also offer solutions, great solutions that will affect this problem. Now, to stop Nigeria from also trying to build a modern refineries with the state of hand that does not even meet all the necessities in Iraq and all the rest of them, these are the modern refineries that are in the world. If you want to hear his things like that, you will see more than just something refineries almost in a stretch of the industrial area producing orders of petroleum products. You understand that? With different prices. So, what stop us from doing that kind of thing in Nigeria? The money we have used in terms of first subsidy can be able to have put, we will be able to put together, be able to put up to three to five refineries in different parts of this country. Do you see some form of political sabotage by people who are benefiting from the suffering of Nigerians playing out here? If you listen to some of my interviews I also believe there is a catel. There is a catel that is also frustrating this issue of deterrent maintenance in the Potakor refinery. And for me I also like, that's one of the top management of this refineries should be learned of and the Nigerians should bring in experts.  So, what stop us from adopting such a mechanism? If so, for Nigerians cannot be able to manage this things. You can have a refinery, you have an MD of the refinery and the MD of the now cannot be able to do anything and you have done deterrent for complete eight years with billions of, trillions of neural and you put, don't give to the deterrent restaurant and nothing is coming out of it. Nigerians are very, very furious about some of these issues and because we are in the Venet marketer, we are the people that break the last call, we receive this insult, we receive this complaint. So, some of this complaint is also what we want to tell Mr. President that this is the kind of complaint we are receiving. This is our challenges. You know, parents cannot, the interest rate is high. $5,000 for $5,000 of petroleum products and now we are all over selling. Business is not good as usual. For you to freeze for $5,000 of petroleum products, you will even take you up to three months depending where you finish the show.  Well, I understand that NNPC has laid off some key members of their staff. What do we know about that? In addition to that, I understand also that Nigerians have been calling for the sake of the man there. The top most man there. We have direct dealing with NNPC, you know, NNPC is a company that sets petroleum products to independent marketers. And I also think the MD of NNPC is doing very, very well. He is also trying to ensure there is adequate petroleum products for independent marketers. You think Melakia is doing very, very well? No, Melakia is the GMD. Okay. Because he is the one Nigerians are calling to be sacked. What do you make of the call for his sack? Because of some of all these issues. Because if, as a GMD who is managing the petroleum industry, they will be able to advise Mr. President on the right policies at the right time. Because I believe that this policy of removal of subsidy was kind of ad hocly applied and the repercussion of it is what Nigerians are facing. The dollar that was around $400 or $500 has jumped to $919. The economics is not diving. So we have a serious problem. So I also think that for you to have an expert imagine the GMD that knows his owners and advise Mr. President on the very, very palatable way of ensuring that this first subsidy was removed and the cost effect of the economy will not affect as Nigerians are facing but it is palliative. One hundred back of rice given Nigerians, no one back of rice.  Is that, is it a problem? Is there a problem feeling? If you want to give us rice why don't you even put the money in agriculture and ensure that food is everywhere? What is the sense of sharing back of rice? Is it what we should be happy and be clapping about? We are talking about where Nigeria will be making money and the staff and our school if that will be employing we are making money for foreign companies and the refineries are working they are employing their graduates because of our demand it is coming to high and they are hiring people from their schools and ensuring that they are sending us food products while we have the crude oil here in Nigeria. I don't know where I have water I will say go and buy pure water I will go and buy such a water from somewhere and I supply the person with such a water and take it in the packet and come back and sadly as I told my analysts earlier in the morning it is very sad that Nigeria that should be going smiling to the banks because the global price of crude has gone high is now crying so much like we don't even have crude on our soil. That is correct you can also remember the IBB windfall of crude Nigeria used it so much to be able to put up infrastructures it is a gang situation if we are refining we will export our finished product and also export our crude oil we will stop us from getting more from exporting our finished product Thank you so much Chief Chinedu for your time on the breakfast Thank you very much Chief Ukadike Chinedu is the National Piero of the Independent Petroleum Marketers Association of Nigeria it's time for us to take a break and come back with our second hot topic do stay with us


Always remember folks, whatever you think about you bring about whatever you focus on grows up everyone's having a great day Safe day. Let's make it a great night folks cultivate wisdom You don't need to accumulate knowledge to become wise anyone can become wise when you become wise you respect your body You respect your mind and you respect your soul when you become wise your life is controlled by your heart not your head Let's take a look at it out here. We have the Dow industrials down 63 Nasdaq off 181 S&P's off 34 that being said folks, but just you look at the end cues These things are gonna run right into the clothes. It's gonna be really interesting watching this market shake out here gold gold contract They're down $15.50 straight and it's 1772 an ounce. You have silver Down 40 cents $21 88 cents an ounce light sweet crude off 89 cents $70 40 cents a barrel notes and bonds a 10-year note down six ticks trading 130 21 the 30 year off seven at 162 08 and King dollar King dollars up 235 ticks trading out at 96 55 Euro is at 112 the yen is at 113 and a half in the British pounds at 132 to 1 the US dollar our phone number's 877 9276 648 if it's called folks Well, I know it's going on in your world and the world of the S&P's let's take a look at them I'm gonna bring the futures up first because they're buying this right now folks. They jam this thing all all day and The good old last hour Bottom line is that they're buying into this market. So what do we have here? We had a low out here in the S&P of 45 96 right now your 28 points above it and we're still down 35 that being said though You can see this bar. That's why I was saying we're coming into it.  So you get the B point out here of 46 20 your a point is Okay, so it's a 22 a to B. So that is going to give you 34 46 34 is that's the confirmed ABC structure on the way up and we're at 4625 right now. So that's that's in the US outside in your S&P and I expect that like right now. These are straight line moves X Where are you? Come on and cues there we go and cues. Okay, so the end cues. They had a low today of 15,734 and Right now you're at 15,908 and let's just see if this is gonna be an ABC. It's an ABC up, too Okay, enter day. So you got let's see 871 and 758 that's 871 Yeah, that's nice. That's a buck 20. Holy cow one second. So that's gonna get you 120 that's 839 3950 on that it makes sense 15,950 is the a to b structure on the way up On the S&P that's that will bring the other S&P back up again the S&P I believe it was it was 10 points higher than what we are right now. That's how this is. It's let's put this up What if now the six points higher because we were we were at 34 when I just did it once there we go Come on. Yeah, this is on the daily. This is on the daily. Yes Yeah, so it took the B point out took it out with volume. We got what 20 Yeah, it's 22 point a to b which gets you 4636 2232 one second, okay, right 2232 36 Yeah, it's gonna be 36 46 36 That's who that baby should probably be shaking out Some of the high volume equities. Let's go take a look at this. Well, actually, let's go look at Microsoft This is pretty amazing man.  It's up so dramatically But it's like down to 11 points right now and it's like it's not a big deal but it is a big deal when you when you take a look at the What it does to the indices, okay, that's that's that's the reality if we put this on I just put this on a three-year weekly and you're gonna see this has been a one-way move now Microsoft has volume off the high and We know that Nadella has been selling well, no not has been selling he sold one half of his whole position Okay, so so if the CEO that has brought this company so much higher Is selling a pot? Well one half his position. You better take that into consideration. I'm just let me just see Along how fast and then on the Delas been here once where are you? one second board Executives oh That's oh, I see. He's only been the chairman for That would he's I see that they don't have him as the he's been the CEO for a long time Now he's not as a chairman and CEO That started only how six months ago pretty wild Some of the higher volume equities out here. Let's take a look at them. You have AMC is up 155. Oh, look at this. This isn't the 24s now. Oh, this is this is oh, this is gonna be dangerous for AMC Let me look at this for a second. Oh AMC's just try to save itself here. This this just might get this $10 finally. Oh, it's on its way. Okay Boy, it took a lot look at this man This took a long time to basically get AMC's my take is gonna back $3.85 cents. Could you imagine? I mean, could you imagine someone? You know, yeah, yeah, yeah the the executives at AMC just have to be so elated They've been selling stocks like crazy, you know the reddit folks have been buying it And unfortunately once this practice you broke down three weeks ago. We went from 38 to 25 This is good. This is that was the building cause to get to that level once you're in the other this has to get above now 2891 in order to get out of this lower range. Okay, so the probability gets much higher That you're gonna hit $12 before we hit 28, you know, so some of the other higher volume equities out here today We have let's see You get Nvidia That's flat. It's trading 281 though that highs up in the three somewhere Bank of America is up 69 Microsoft's a big one Peloton's off a buck and a half. You get American Airlines That's down fractionally. You got Intel down 28 cents Comcast is up a dollar The Apple is down 87 cents. Let's go take a look at Apple. It did Apple's been running higher every single day. Okay. I gave it up finally. Okay Well didn't give it up but from yesterday today. We went 183 to 174 So these these spreads are getting larger as they back down. There's no doubt about that stare at their folks come right back


I think that first we have to understand what the means by digital world. And today, you know, that we enjoy a lot of modern ICT and telecom technology and services. You talk a lot about high-definition televisions. You talk a lot about, you know, broadband connections. You talk a lot about, you know, for example, mobile bank, mobile, you know, clinic or these kind of things. For this, in our terms, we call it digital world. And digital world need a lot of new technologies. And digital world need a lot of investment, for sure. And of course today, we would like to also promote the digital technology and services everywhere to the world so that everybody will enjoy the latest technology of ICT for their better life. Of course, we also talked about the digital divide. So in the world, unfortunately, today, still some people have not been connected. And some people be connected, but not enjoying the latest technologies, so not equally benefit from the latest technologies. So there, digital divide exists. So we have to address this as well. We believe that the digital world will bring better life to human society. And digital technology will help people to invent a lot of things to facilitate the equal social development. So we would like to, you know, see this change be discussed at our event here. Yeah, I think that ICT itself has already made a lot of progress and has also changed a lot. But still today, the situation, you know, new challenges arise. And new technologies, you know, pushed new need from the market. And then we have to also cope with these kind of latest changes from the technology side, from customer side, you know, from social, you know, economic requirements side. Therefore, you know, we really have to work together to take benefit of this digital revolution so that we can change not only the, you know, digital related industry, but also the whole society. ITU Telecom is a platform organized by ITU since 1971.  But they can come together to share this concern, to share their opinions. And I think that Telecom provides such kind of opportunity to facilitate the dialogue, facilitate the sharing of experiences, sharing of ideas, and also sharing the future of ICT development. I would encourage them to actively follow the activities ITU organized during this event and actively contributed their own ideas, their own proposals, their own concerns through all channels, not only in the, you know, forum sessions, but also by, you know, social media channels, Twitter's, Facebook's, and anything they can find. I think that the ITU, together with the members, will try to catch up with the opinions from everywhere, and then, you know, we will try to, you know, work out some kind of proposals, and then we will center our opinions back to our public, and for their further consideration, and for their further cooperation.


Hey friends, I'm Scott Hanselman and welcome to OpenJS World. I was told to give a keynote, but rather than me talking for a long time with evocative stock photography and inspirational stories, I thought a better idea would be to bring people who are much more interesting and much more competent than I to the stage. So I'm going to be thrilled to introduce our panelists for this wonderful panel getting hired. So again, I am Scott Hanselman. To my left, we have Jerome Hardaway from Vets Who Code. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me, Scott. In the lower corner here, down here, we have Zainab Ebrahimi, CEO at Flourish. Hello. Hey, thanks for having me. And then right down here, we've got Seran Yitbarik, founder of Code Newby as well as other ventures and just general positive enabler on the internet. How are you? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Cool. So this panel wants to kind of talk about getting hired to code a little bit about it. We're in the middle of, you know, in the middle of a Panera bread in the middle of a panini. Some people find that an offensive joke. I find it funny every single time. I don't care whether you think it's a bad thing or not. We're in a really difficult time right now, both in tech. We're having growing pains as a war as a world. We're separated and not all in person at OpenJS World right now. And getting hired is really hard. Every time I hear about someone losing their job in the middle of this pandemic, I think to myself, wow, this is a really rough, a rough time to be doing that. Zainab, have people been coming to Flourish for coaching and being better at getting hired during this time? Yeah, what you're saying is absolutely right. It is a lot harder doing this time. We've been seeing a lot of people struggling to get jobs a lot more than we had in last year. I think things are going to get better. I'm feeling very hopeful that come the summer and the trends, especially here in the U.S., is going. Like, things are going to get better, but yeah, it's been a struggle. And mostly it has to do with the hesitancy of a lot of companies to hire more junior engineers or more entry-level engineers and setting a bar extremely high. There's one anecdote that I'll share. I saw a job posting, and actually this happened a lot, where there's a job description for an entry-level position asking for five years of experience. And so it's a little rough out there for sure. Yeah, Seran, you've dedicated a lot of your career to help people who are early in career be successful. It seems like there's a bit of a haves and have-nots between there's like people who have 20 years experience and they may have trouble finding jobs because of ageism, and people who are just getting started who can't get anyone to take a chance on them. Yeah, absolutely. And I think one thing that's been really encouraging in recent years is moving away from calling them junior developers to early career developers. I think that slowly we're becoming a little bit more open-minded as to the different skill levels we're willing to accept in developer positions. And I think just starting with naming is a good sign that we're moving in the right direction. I've also seen titles like Associate Developer, which is also encouraging because it kind of establishes the career ladder a little bit sooner, a little bit earlier in someone's career, and I find that really encouraging. So I think that we are, I think we're very, very far away from getting to where we want to be, but I can see kind of baby steps in incorporating and introducing people with just one or zero years of experience into the official ladder at a tech company and at an engineering team. One of my bosses has said that when you're putting together a basketball team, you can't teach height, but everything else can be taught ball handling rules of the game and all those kind of things. And he is consistently surprised that we don't hire for height because honestly, you know, oh, you don't know Ruby. That's fine. We'll teach you Ruby. You don't know C-Sharp. We'll teach you C-Sharp. Jerome, you work with veterans and upskilling those veterans. Why don't people teach, why don't people hire like that? I think, especially when I'm sitting in the market right now, I just think it's, if I'm being 100% honest, I'm thinking it's a little bit of trying to hedge the bets in their favor and, you know, just laziness, right? I've been on this remote journey of being able to educate enough skilled people remotely for six, seven years, right? So I have that experience. A lot of people, especially we're not truly doing it remote first or doing it, you know, in a pandemic.   So it's a different mindset and people are just not thinking from it like in that aspect when it comes to hiring and like working with remote workers. I spoke last week to a company that had 200 entry level jobs just on backfield. I was like, you know, we're just going to wait till the world opens up when my senior software engineers, my alumni who are getting going for their second jobs when they come to me and they ask me to like help them with it. They're getting hired within weeks and they're getting upwards to like the salary plus like 20, 30, 50% more than what they asked for. I have a veteran who just came. He's in, he's in Seattle, but he just got a job in Nashville. He's getting paid 50% above the average salary of a senior front engineer there. So it's a real, like it's a really crazy market right now, particularly for those who are senior. They're able to get, you know, they're getting snatched away hotcakes and they're getting a lot more money than they're asking for. While juniors, they're having to almost be like small versions of DevRel and they're having to really showcase those skills to instill that social equity to, you know, get companies to, you know, take a chance on them. Yeah, it feels like the bell curve, the standard bell curve is kind of inverted right now. And we're seeing very, very early in career and very, very senior people and everyone is having a challenge right now getting someone to take a chance on them. And to your point, we're all remote. So I guess we won't hire a junior, excuse me, pardon me, an early in career or an emerging developer because we don't have the time the patients perhaps were too lazy to really invest in them. I can't sit with that person and give them that love that they need that. And honestly, the ability to fail. I think that we don't give early in career developers a safe place to fail fast and often without judgment.  Like we demand, we demand a level of perfection that we can obtain from the juniors that we didn't have. And as particularly when you go to like middle and senior engineers, they are, I've seen it in my community a lot where people are demanding a level of capabilities. I'm like, do you not remember how like when we first got in this community, how easy it was to get in? Like all you had to do was know bootstrap and jQuery. Like now is a front end.  You need to understand APIs. You need to like be able to tell the difference between several front end CSS frameworks from bootstrap to foundation to tell when it's not the same. So we have to give people grace. If I may, that's an excellent segue. Let me ask you this, Zainab, that list of skills that Jerome just rattled off, which is large. What do early in career developers feel when they see that like this is the stack you need to make a web page? Yeah, it's pretty overwhelming. I think what we've been seeing a lot with the people that we've been talking about is like a lot of anxiety and feeling like they're not good enough, right? And I find that that mentality sometimes even hinders their ability to really get through the interview process, right? Because when you're going, the interview process in itself is already extremely hard, right? You're like put on the spot. You have to talk to people. It's really anxiety inducing in it itself. If on top of that, you feel like, you know, there's so much to learn. There's so much to know. And I'm expected to know all of these things all at once in order to prove myself in order to get this job that I really want. And I like to reframe that a little bit in the sense that if you can code, you can learn. And this industry, it's all about learning. Nobody is perfect. Nobody knows it all, right? Like I've been in the industry for 10 years, almost 10 years. And there are so many things that I don't know. And it's like more about being comfortable with the idea that you will not know, but that you can convince someone. And first of all, convince yourself that you can pick up any framework that comes around. You know what I mean? Like you can learn and that is this type of stuff that gets you hired, right? Being able to demonstrate that you're resourceful, that you can learn, that you're driven. And I think that that's the focus that we should be having really because the amount of frameworks and technologies and tools that are going to come up are going to continue to grow, right? And that should not be the focus. If you can code, you can pretty much pick up any of those things along the way. So Ron, in your career, you have been very much someone who empowers and wants people to think about the system as opposed to thinking about the individual line of code. Is that important? What Zaneva is saying? To like learn how to learn is the most important skill that people have to have right now in today's job market? I think so. I think the other thing is to learn how to focus. I spent a lot of time talking to all kinds of strangers all over the world. And just, you know, offering my descents and trying to be helpful and giving feedback and perspective on their, you know, job hunts and their learn to code journeys. And one of the things that shows up over and over again is just people just bouncing around and being all over the place. And their inability to, you know, to lower their inability, but their struggle to learn isn't because they literally can't learn. It's because they feel, as Z said, overwhelmed and they feel all over the place. And they feel like, oh, you know, I hear about this new framework. Okay, let me jump to this real quick. Oh, two weeks past. Oh, no, there's another frame. Okay, let me go to this. And they're jumping around so much and so frequently that they get nothing done.  And then this is vicious cycle. So I feel like, you know, it's not just learning how to learn, but learning how, as Jerome just put it in the chat, learning how to plan and learning how to stick to a plan and believe in the plan, kind of trusting the process. I think is something that is understandably very, very difficult for something that's as hard as coding. But I think that's a really big problem that I've seen. And I really like what I'm seeing in social media with younger people. And I mean, literally younger in age using technology in a way that is creative so that they can have accountability partners. There's a young woman on TikTok named Medical Cat with a K. She streams herself studying so that others might normalize studying for three or four hours at a time. So she puts her phone there and she studies, she plays music, she has Pomodoro's. And then every 25 minutes she takes a break and she addresses the live audience. And it's mostly just chill and vibe and learn with Cat. And I think to myself like, wow, I would never have that ability to be that organized to be that disciplined to be that planned. But what's cool about it is that you're watching her be dedicated to a thing. And it's like, well, if this internet stranger is being open and positive and empowering, then maybe I'll plan my study and we'll do it together. We'll study together. And having those partnerships as opposed to traditional mentorships, which is just old person, lecturers, young person, I think is a new way to think about studying and planning, especially in public. Jerome, now you have put together vets who code for many years now and it's not necessarily a mentorship program. There's a lot of peer, you know, people mentoring each other kind of work as well. How do you make sure that it's not just you hold court, you know, regularly and tell them what you know? How do I make sure? Well, just how the world is best with this? I feel like I have an unfair disadvantage in the education place, right? I am my people, right? The people that come through vets who code, they're usually people who, you know, they were on the front lines and battlefields and stuff. And that's who I was. So in the military, they would call us like first term troops like the E4 mafia. So the lower ranking people and I'm one of them. So it's like, I know where they come from. So I'm a part of the gang and I'm able to talk to them in their language and be able to come from a fire team format of like, yeah, this is how we're going to do this. Like, all right. You speak their language. Yes, exactly, right? I can come in talking to them the way they've already been trained. And it just resonates, right? And they understand because from my background, I have, you know, I have enough experience to where most of the guys and girls who are in infantry are like Erin, who she was an EOD or just explosive originate disposal because she did want to jump out of planes. So she shows bombs over planes that swallowed me.  Yes. That proves that it's possible and then they can run in the direction that you're running. And I think that's the biggest, like, yeah, I think that's the biggest secret. Like, you know, I'm, I think I'm the only code school guy that's not like, you know, I don't have fancy masters or anything like that. And I was like, hey, yo, I was out there. I switched to M4 for a MacBook Pro. I never looked back just like, yo, so, you know, if I could do it, you can do it. And then let me, you know, let me put you guys in a team and then we're going to work together in a team and we're going to hurry up and assess each other's strengths and weaknesses. And then based upon your strengths and weaknesses, we can bring in other mentors and based upon the things that you love and enjoy up that will bring in people that can talk to you and just keep that type of communal ecosystem in, right? So I like, you know, we have people who are who love CSS and love UX and people who love just, you know, doing API serverless.  I'm always trying to, um, perpendicularly, like cyclically, in a cyclical manner, identify what they love and what they have problems with and try to, like, fill the gaps of those. So that's, like I said, I have, I have an unfair advantage because I think move and communicate like them, right? So a lot of places don't have that. So let me ask this then, Zainab, how important is it that people who are into tech and beginning see people who are their people? Because Jerome has just described a really welcoming environment that, you know, and I'll be honest with you, Jerome, doesn't speak to me, right? Because I never served and thank you for your service. But I'm hearing that that's what they need. How important is it, Zainab, for people to see people that look like them in tech? Thank you. Maybe muted. My bad. Yep. Um, it's absolutely important. Um, I think the idea of belonging goes such a long way, right? Because this industry and just coding in general is seen as something that's very hard that takes a lot of focus, it takes a lot of energy. And sometimes we struggle with a lot of imposter syndrome, right? Like knowing that someone like me can do it is such a huge boost, right? Specifically because of that anxiety that comes with, you know, doing something that's really hard. I kind of, you know, sharing like an example when I got started to learn how to code, it was extremely intimidating because I was the only woman and woman of color in my classes, right? I did not see any people like me that had my interest in the industry either.  And I think that a lot of times it has to do with that mental block that doesn't allow us to like either do well in the interview process or doesn't allow us to like get our energy and focus to start a project. Because I remember when I was early on in my career, I would hear a lot of advice about like, oh, you need to build, you know, build some projects on the side and that's going to boost your resume or you should be studying two hours a day and I couldn't do it. I struggled so much with it because I just felt like I was, I just didn't have the capacity, right? And it wasn't until I started feeling more comfortable in my skin that those things started to come so easily. And so a lot of the belonging is so important because it gives you a safe place to start. And so I think that's why representation is so important because it gives you a safety pad. Like, oh, this person did it, then maybe I can do it too, right? And you don't have to feel that anxiety that you have to always be performing or you have to convince yourself and others that you belong in this place. That statement that you made that someone says, you know, she did it, I can do it. And if I see that person, I can do it. I don't want me doing it to make someone feel like they explicitly can't. For example, when I go to family get-togethers, I'm the computer person.   But very early we get split into computer people and not computer people. And I don't like that. I want to normalize normal people coding.  But you are.  Like maybe you're more technical than you give yourself credit for. You know, what can we do in the community to be more welcoming to those people?  Yeah, I've been thinking about that a lot. My solution to this is normalizing people bringing their entire self to work and not just when it like benefits the company. All right.  We've had a lot of conversations around Black Lives Matter and being able to bring your whole self to work. But as you've been seeing, of course, past year companies have started to take that back because it's a lot harder than, you know, throwing a black swear on Instagram or a black banner. So the first thing that we have to do is just allow people to be their whole self. Like, you know, if you see me on Twitter twice a day, I'm talking about cooking recipes, right? Because that's what I like to think about when that helps me get my brain working better than thinking about code, right? But, you know, oh, I wonder how Kevvie our fried rice would go. And you get people like saying like, stay in your lane, Jerome, I came here for the tech. I don't want to hear about your recipe. Well, I think like I said, it's very hard because of my background. No one really tries to gatekeep me because they're like, this dude has a purple heart. Who am I going to like tell this dude what he can and can't do? So it's very, it's very weird, right? So, but I think as a community, we just got to let people bring their whole selves to work. Like, I love going on Twitter and finding all the other random things out about people. Like, you know, air fryer nation, right? Well, Angie, right? That's amazing. Like all these people, of course, is a very famous developer and a tester and international speaker who also has a cult of people who love air frying. And they've even made t-shirts, right? And that's a really great example, though, that we as a community need to be welcoming to people and all of their diverse, diverse interests. I know, Saran, that when you founded Code Newbies, that was really, really important to make it so everyone could be interested in all the things that they're interested in.  Yeah, exactly. And, Jerome, I totally love your point about seeing different people and bringing them their whole selves. One of my favorite people to follow on Instagram is April. I can't remember her last name right now. But she's Vogue and Code on the Internet. She works for Microsoft. And she, I just love her Instagram because she's, I think she's a developer relations person, I think. She does. Where's your reality now? Yeah, yeah, exactly.  She sews her own clothes, these beautiful designs and how she organizes her office. And I think she just moved to a new house. And it's just so much fun seeing someone who's highly technical, written books about Python, you know, does so many great, you know, hardcore, quote, unquote, code things being just a normal person. And for us at Code Newbie, for us where that really, we've tried to kind of emphasize that is in the podcast. We have a show called the Code Newbie podcast. We've done hundreds of episodes over the last six, seven years now. And when we pick the guest, when we pick who we want to showcase on the show, we go for people who are normal, people who represent all different walks of life, all different backgrounds, people who started as babysitters and teachers.  And just saying that, you know, normal people, people with regular jobs with, you know, maybe a little bit more humble beginnings can get started. And by showcasing such a wide range of people, you know, a nice array of people, you're able to send home the message that, hey, there is no archetype. There is no one right way to do it. There is no single path. Everyone is different. And this place is welcoming to all. So for us, it's been storytelling. That's been our primary tool. That's great. Doesn't it seem like that, that open source and Linux and JavaScript and open code is really like should be the place where people go to get involved in tech. Like it is on the open source community to be like, hey, like the whole point of all of this was free code and free, you know, free knowledge and all these kinds of things. This should be the community that people go to, to get involved in technology saying that when you are coaching people to be to, you know, to go and get jobs to go and do interviews and things like that. Does open source matter on their resumes? 100%. I actually think that that is a great opportunity to showcase your, your skills, but also your drive. Right. It shows that you care about someone else's project or that you care about a community and to build it. And it is a huge booster in someone's resume, especially if you're just getting started with your career. So that is definitely somewhere that I try to like point people towards, but I will say that a lot of people kind of feel intimidated by that as well. You know, and I think it has to do with the fact that we are probably scared of like making mistakes, right? Like if I open a pull request on some, you know, open source project, what if I get, you know, rejected? What if someone, you know, is criticizing the way that I'm approaching this? And so I think there's definitely a need for creating a little bit more of an incentive for people to feel okay with like, you don't have to get everything right. You know, you don't have to get everything perfect. And it's about the intention and just getting ourselves out there. Yeah. That's a callback a little bit to that, that statement that I made a little bit ago where I said people need a welcoming place to fail. That's the number one thing at Microsoft where I work that we feel that the early incorribe will say that they don't feel comfortable failing because they think they have to be perfect. They were perfect their whole lives to get to this place. And now they're at this big scary company and they need to do just the right thing. And I would really like them to be able to fail quickly, you know, hopefully without costing billions of dollars as fast as possible. And they always like, how do you know this? God, how do you know this obscure thing? Well, many years ago when I failed very, very quickly, I learned this thing, this semicolon that just spent six hours debugging. And now you two know this stuff. Like that's how we get these stories, right? If stories of failure. That's my favorite thing. Like they just put me in a project at Microsoft and I was like, oh, I'm going to mess this up. I'm going to let y'all know that right now. And everybody was like, well, at least you're honest. I was like, yeah, I'm a, you know, you have to, like I said, the whole idea of grace, like, but it starts with yourself, right? People, they get in their own heads, right? And they are trying to live up to an unrealistic viewpoint of themselves.  I'm like, did you forget how crazy it was going through basic? You were not you before you were in a basic. You were to the military, a horrible version of civilian that had to get molded into who you currently are now. So don't think about it in that, in the scope that you have to be perfect. I was like, no, they literally trained you and taught you how to do things. That's how it's going to be. Now we apply that to a community.  Crawl walk run and buddy system. So when I, when I'm in open source and I'm helping my veterans, it's always first thing I do is I connect them to someone who has more experience in this than them. And I try to make projects that can help them grow in open source as well as, you know, not intimidate them. Yeah, I've, I've learned a lot about onboarding open source over the past six years because of, you know, I, you know, I've seen it all the bad things. I've seen all the good things. I'm like, you know what, you know, these are things that you need to, you need to find when you're going to open source, like community, just find a first find something that you actually enjoy. And then turn around and see, you know, where can I help and just start talking to people. You'd be amazed how much, you know, you will learn just doing that. And a lot of people don't think about that. You know, coding is a social game and you have to get in there and start thinking and aspects of these are people behind code, right? Companies, they don't think like that for the most part. But, you know, when it comes to open source, you can do that, particularly in JavaScript, where, you know, because of, you know, React and the VA engine. We kind of democratize coding because we went from the toy language and like flipped into like, oh, this is one of the fastest growing production level languages on the planet. Like, how did that happen? Right? It was something made in two weeks. How on earth, like, who wrote, like, who would have said that this is going to be a thing? Like, Not the language we deserve, but it is the language that we have. Yeah. Like, who had this, like, ego card. So, like, you know, and that's the idea that we have to have, right? I appreciate that. Sorry, please. In the remaining two minutes, if we could have Zainab, maybe you could offer your last minute as we head out. I almost feel like I'm just going to open a whole different tangent. I just want to point out that we've been talking about being able to fail and not necessarily not needing to be perfect, right? And being okay with not being perfect. And I feel like there's a huge failure in how we evaluate technical skills in the interview process, right? The technical interview process does not allow for any margin of error, right? So here we are talking about what it takes to be a good developer, and it's all about, you know, embracing those failures and learning. Yet, for some, for some reason, we've standardized an interview process and a technical assessment that does not allow for that. It does not allow for people to show their true colors to be able to bring their whole self to show of other skills, you know, and to show that they actually can learn and that they can actually build on previous knowledge, right? And so I think that that's a huge thing that as a tech industry, we still need to get right. And it's like the interview process itself, how we interview for tech skills. Soran, any parting thoughts as we head out to the end of our half an hour? Sure. I think that, you know, my parting thoughts are that even though we have a long way to go in terms of where we are in the tech industry and being more inclusive and being kinder and just a better place to work, I think we're definitely headed in the right direction. I've been really optimistic, especially in the last couple of years of seeing, as I mentioned, the early career developer, you know, name, change, this idea of, you know, pushing back against burnout and really embracing self care and mental health. And I feel like we are getting to a place where we are including more people and we are bringing people in. And that is because of individuals.  So I hope each of you feel empowered to take on a little bit of that responsibility and making coding a better place to me. Fantastic. Well, I appreciate you all. I'm a founder of Serenia Barak, founder of Code Newbies, Jerome Hardaway from Vets Who Code, Zaynab Ebrahimi from Flourish, and I have been your host, Scott Hanselman, also the host of the Hanselman Itz podcast. And we've appreciated you hanging out with us here and we hope you have a great conference at OpenJS World 2021. Goodbye.


Cubs are up by one and one out away from winning the game. Base hit! Cow's on first base. They're gonna take him off and bring in Rodriguez. That's outside. Oh, that's a strike.  The next pitch, taking a lead, leaning, leaning. Oh, just leaning a little bit too much. Did he get back? Counsel says, yes, should we replay it? And then does that motion. Right there. You can see the gloves start to shift form. Well, what's his hand doing? Hmm, interesting. Not touching. You can see that glove is crunching right. Boom, right there. See it? After review, we got it wrong. That guy is out. He's excited. He gets, what? And we're just holding babies up. Babies in the air because the Cubs get the win today.


Phil, thank you so much for taking time to sit down with us today. Oh, it's my pleasure, it's my pleasure. We're gonna play a game of Never Have I Ever. Okay. The first one is Never Have I Ever got on a tattoo. I have not. Do I look like David Beckham to you?  Never Have I Ever had an embarrassing moment at work. I have. You know, one time I actually was embarrassing. I handcuffed myself to the toilet and I don't even remember how, but the toilet got clogged and there was no plunger. So it was just a, there's a terrible day. Let's just, let's just leave it there. Never Have I Ever used a fake name? I have. Does Rasputin pump weed count? Never Have I Ever gone skinny dipping? No, I have not. I'm dry clean only.  Yes, I have. Cagney and Lacey. Both of them, at the same time. Never Have I Ever kissed a stranger? I have.  Never Have I Ever had an embarrassing username? Phil Phillips 69.  I have to say I have. Every time Die Hard comes on TV.  I'm a private detective so figuring out the stuff is sort of my job. First word is chirps. I'd say that's like the plural version of chirp. You know, like a bird language. But I guess it's the UK so you guys add that E on the end of everything. Like ye olde shop. Chirps is to flirt. How you doing? Exactly like that. I think I got it. Muggy. Muggy. Oh, I know this one. That's when someone's feeling they want to mug somebody. You know, like I'm feeling a little muggy today. So I think I'll go and take that little old lady's purse because I feel muggy. Right? Muggy.   Oh, mine better. All right, next slang word. Mayor. Oh, that's either a lady horse or the way you, Brits, say Mayor. Like Mayor. Mayor, one of the two. Mayor of the city. Well, it's also what we say for like the short version of like Nightmare. Like I'm having a Mayor. You're having a really bad time. Next one is Raji. No idea. I'm guessing it's like a soup or something like that.  Well, you just threw another one out there. Geordi. What does that mean? Geordi's like someone from Newcastle. Oh, is it? Have you never met one? Maybe I have. I just didn't know it was a Geordi. I think you know if you've met one. Oh, yeah. Allow it. Allow it. Well, in my line of work, it's usually said by a judge when an attorney objects to something, but you know, I'm not sure what your judges do.  I mean, what's with that anyway? You ever thought that who would have thought wearing something that looks like a cotton candy made of marshmallows or something on your head was a good idea? Allow it means like to leave something alone. Like, don't worry about it. Got it. I got it. I got it. Try it right. Bug roll. It's like an egg roll. It's been sitting out in the sun too long. You know, I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about this. That's not right, is it? No. You wouldn't want to eat it. Oh. Toilet paper. I know some people who might eat toilet paper. Painting.  This kind of reminds me of how he says painting. Painting, you know, he's got a little problem speaking. Painting is an attractive person. Well, painting. What does Bob's your uncle mean? Bob's your uncle? No, Bob's not my uncle. Bob's my mailman. Bob's my mailman. My uncle is Jerry. Jerry. Bob's your uncle is like, there you go. All sorted. All taken care of. Bob's your uncle. Like that kind of thing? Hey, Bob's your uncle. Bob's your uncle, you got it. Hey, Bob's your uncle. What was it like working with Connie Edwards again? You know, working with Connie is like finding an old shoe. It's a bit uncomfortable at first, but after a while it starts to feel pretty familiar and ready to kick ass again. What's something no one knows about detective work behind closed doors? I'm not allowed to discuss that at this time. There's currently an investigation going on. Crime is so popular at the moment. What do you think of shows like Making a Murder or Cereal? How would you go about solving them? I don't really watch TV much. We listen to that podcast Nonsense.    What would you do differently? Probably everything.  What's the craziest thing you've seen at work? Oh, I once caught a guy cheating on his wife with a blender. Now, don't ask, yeah, I know, right? Don't ask me how it actually works, but the wife was pretty upset, especially because she bought the blender.


I got a handwritten in red, red letters, a handwritten letter from Dale, and it really touched my heart and I thought, wow, I should read this on the birth of holiness retreat because here's someone who's in prison and he's working it. And I look at you, I see all the faces out there, you're all working it. And Dale's working it but I'm just bringing Dale up here because I don't think Dale has so many popping heads going on in his life. He's watching his thoughts, he's diving in to his mind. He is a captive audience for spirit and he's been reading the books and these letters are always straight to the point. He doesn't mince words, he just pours his heart out and he pours his soul out and he's writing. And the reason I thought I would bring it up at this session is I'm down in Mexico and I don't know much about Mexico Postal System but it's not easy for me to reply to a letter like this from Mexico but I'll get my chance. But I think some of you may want to write to him after you've had an experience of what he is, who he is and what he's going through because that is an opportunity for him, for all of us to deepen in our practice. So here's what he wrote. He wrote this on, right around Thanksgiving, he wrote this on November 25th, 2018. David, hey buddy, yes it's me again, smiley face. Let me explain why I write to you. I know that no matter how crazy my letters may sound, I know that I won't be judged and I know that each time a letter is received, I am seen an entirely new smiley face.  I've sincerely considered speaking to mental health because there aren't many people at all in my circle that I can speak to about this in prison. Prison has become metaphysical, no it's not metaphysical, it's metaphorical, prison has become metaphorical for me. So he's reached that point where he's realizing that the whole prison scene is just a metaphor for his escape from the ego. He's reached that point where he's not waking up in the morning thinking another day of prison because the metaphor is the situation is just showing him what all human beings come to at one point like this world is just a metaphor for the imprisonment of the mind and the need to wake up from this ego belief system. David in this sense I am only underlined concerned with going home. Capital H-O-M-E underlined. So he's talking about heaven. He's talking about what Swabha was just singing about, you will find heaven. At this point I am only underlined concerned with going home. I really no longer care about going home, smaller H-O-M-E. So the metaphor of prison now he has completely taken it on board and there is no sense of wanting to leave prison. There is no sense of wanting to be released. There is no sense of wanting to escape like some of those other Shaw-Sank redemption we've seen some other movies. There's no, no, he's not even like Timothy Robbins trying to plot a way out. He has, he is no longer concerned. He has no care about going small H-O-M. I think you understand what I mean. I do. I'm not sad in any way, nor am I depressed. I feel joy and happiness within my being and can be peaceful. Loving and forgiving to all I see. My questions are, are all of these characters and personalities only me? This is what he's pondering in prison as he's watching, watching the world. Like all of us are watching the world, are all of these characters and prisoners and personalities only me? My own self reflected back to me, question mark. Everyone in my life is in my own mind. This is why the how I see them in my world, my dream is so important, question mark. That's an important line. This is why the how I see them in my world, my dream is so important. There are people that read the course and they really struggle with certain paragraphs. Like for example, there's an amazing paragraph in the course. I am responsible for what I see. I choose the feelings I experience and I decide upon the goal I would achieve. And everything that seems to happen to me, I ask for and receive as I have asked. There's no blame and victimization in that. In fact, if you can accept that without reservation, you will be exceedingly happy for eternity because you would never blame anything or anyone in the world. But he's heard my talks because a lot of times people take that first question, that first statement from Jesus in that paragraph I just recited. I am responsible for what I see. And they think, oh my God, if I'm seeing competition and starvation and a world that's just falling apart and I am responsible for what I see, whoa, that's hard to take responsibility for the perception of the world in a distorted way. And what I tell people is really what Jesus means by I am responsible for what I see is Jesus means I am responsible for how I see. How I see the world, that's my responsibility. I don't have to say, oh, I see a terrible world and I'm responsible for it, so whoa is me. It's basically I can choose to see the world clearly with the Holy Spirit. And the world I see is going to be the result of what I want.  I will experience the happy dream. But here he is saying that is why the how I see them in my world, my dream is so important. He's asking, is that really that important? And it is that we're responsible.  Or I wish I could forgive the world but I don't know how. You see that how word comes in a lot. That's why we say the Holy Spirit is the how. The Holy Spirit is the how. If you throw all your trust, all your faith in the Holy Spirit, then you've just solved the how. Because the how is already there, the Holy Spirit has already corrected this world. And if you put all your faith in listening to the Holy Spirit, then you don't have to worry about the how. Because the how is automatic. It's absolutely automatic as long as you put your faith and trust in. And here is Dale asking that, is it because this is what will carry on with me? He's realizing that beyond this world, beyond this body, beyond this personality self, what will carry on with me? What will carry me into my awareness of the Christ self? What will carry me all the way home to heaven is the Holy Spirit. That's the how. That's why guidance is so important. We always talk about guidance. We always talk about receiving and following guidance. Because without that guidance, then the how becomes obscured. Then the how becomes pushed out of awareness. We don't know what the how is. In fact, as long as I am, quote, seeing these images and appearances, is it only consciousness? This is another huge leap to start to realize that what you're perceiving as this world is simply your consciousness. You're perceiving consciousness. Consciousness is not apart from the world you see. Consciousness and the world that you perceive are the same in the sense that my thoughts are images I have made. My meaningless thoughts are showing me a meaningless world. And my consciousness is literally what I perceive.  When you look at anything of this world, you're just seeing a motion picture of consciousness. If you want to know what's going on in your consciousness, just watch your thoughts, watch your emotions, and watch those images go passing by. And you're getting, it's a picture, it's a motion picture of that consciousness. And here he is in prison, no money, no health insurance, no life insurance, no freedom of the body. He's just there, a captive audience to spirit, and he's asking me, are all these images I am seeing? He puts seeing in quotes because he knows what? That it's not really the vision of Christ, it's just artificial seeing. This isn't vision, this is just the seeing of consciousness. As long as I am seeing these images and appearances, is it only consciousness? Once you start to realize that you're just dealing with an awakening in your consciousness, with a healing, with a forgiveness going on in your consciousness, everything starts to get real simple, everything. And I mean, you can start to see everything in the same light. I see Julie over there, her house burned down. You know, there's things that are happening in your lives. Dale's in prison, Julie's house burned down, and if I went around there, you guys have had some extreme things going on. But if you see this as consciousness, then you just say, hmm, okay, what's going on here? What do I value here? What am I valuing more than my Christ self here? If there's anything disturbing me, it must be that I'm simply valuing something of the world more than my Christ self. That's all. It's really simple. So here is Dale, he's in prison in Chilacothe, Ohio, and he's coming to this realization that basically it's all consciousness. He's just dealing with consciousness. Oh, I have a bill that I can't pay. It's three months due, but it's only consciousness. Oh, I have a girlfriend that I haven't seen in five months, and we used to be so close, and now we don't talk. And I was hoping I could see her for Christmas, but she didn't write back to me. But it's only consciousness. Oh, I've been diagnosed with cancer, and I've been told I have three months to live. Well, but it's only consciousness. You know, we have to come, like Dale, to start to really go into this, what Jesus is teaching us in A Course in Miracles, is he's saying there is no world apart from what you think, there is no world apart from consciousness, that consciousness and the world are synonymous, and that you can escape from the world that you see by giving up attack thoughts, by giving up judgments.  He said, judge not lest ye be judged. Don't judge anything about yourself or the world, otherwise you're going to be laying a judgment on yourself, and you're not going to know your Christ self.  You'll be accepting the ego's idols as gifts instead of accepting your Christ self as a gift from God, that God gave you in creation. God created you holy and perfect. So he's talking then about consciousness, unmodified and impersonal, because the me that I speak of isn't real.  Well, that's going to really loosen your cares and worries. You're not going to be bonking down those heads so much every day. If it's impersonal, imagine you could just sit there and watch the heads pop all day and have a good laugh. Oh, look at this. Maybe we can make a song out of it. Remember that song, Popcorn? Throw the bunker away. Throw the hammer away. What is the point of trying to pound down popping heads every day when you could let go of the bunker, the judge, the corrector, the critic, the fixer, and be, oh, let all things be exactly as they are. All things work together for good. There are no exceptions except in the ego's judgment. If you start, Jesus is giving us a symphony in A Course in Miracles, a symphony saying, just let all things be exactly as they are. See the divine perfection in everything. See that nothing is out of place, not a molecule, not an electron, not a star, not a planet, not a leaf, not a blade of grass. Nothing is outside of this divine perfectness, this divine flow, this divine harmony, this divine will. And so here's Dale, and Dale's in prison, seemingly, but now he's realized it's just the prison of his mind and now he is coming toward the escape hatch and it's not about Dale's body getting out of a cubicle or getting out from behind bars. The escape is not informed. You will not escape from this world by moving the body from one location to another. I'll tell you that much. I've traveled a lot and I can tell you I've been in millions of different locations and they're really all the same because it's all consciousness. It's all consciousness. It's only a construct that I made to feel accepted. Now he's talking about Dale as only a construct that I made to feel accepted. Isn't that interesting? Instead of thinking you were born to parents in this world, now you start to think of that personality self as a construct that I, the ego mind made to feel accepted. You see, it's a self-concept. That's why people-pleasing is so important to the ego. That's why being liked by other people is so important. That's why adulation, recognition, awards, all kinds of advancement, pay increases, and all the things that go with the gold medals, all the things of the world were all made to make a self acceptable. But actually, this self, this small self will never ever feel accepted. And that's why no matter how much you achieve in this world, no matter how much you accomplish, no matter how high you rise in social status, no matter how much money you make, no matter how beautiful the body is, or how many skills and abilities you acquire, or mental capacities you acquire, or learning that you acquire, you will never ever feel accepted. Because as Dale, I'll quote the prophet Dale, who's in Chillicothe now, it's only a construct that I made to feel accepted. Wow! That's a big one. This could end up being-Dale could have a little book. The writings of Dale from Chillicothe. You know, he's in there wondering if he's on the right track. Oh, he's more than on the right track. He's coming close to the escape hatch in the mind, and he's doing it for all of us, and we're all there with him. We're all there experiencing this with him. Page two. I ask you if I'm headed in the right direction, because I've lost interest in the world. That's interesting. He's asking me, did I blow it somewhere? I've lost interest in the world. Well, what did Jesus say about be passers-by? Has anybody ever read Lesson 128 from a Course in Miracles workbook? The world I see holds nothing that I want. Oh, Dale, you're hitting the jackpot here. You know, he's zooming in here in the big way, and he's asking me. I ask you if I'm headed in the right direction because I've lost interest in the world. I've walked away from my life entirely. I did this because none of the things I walked away from really supported this path I've chosen. I'll have to read that again. He's giving the reason why he has no interest in the world is because I've walked away from my life entirely. I did this because none of the things I walked away from really supported this path I've chosen. In parentheses, family and friends. Now, for a lot of us who have a lot of interactions, we know here if our living miracles community that it's not about a walking away from or a letting go in terms of the form, it's really we're just letting go of the purpose. So when we have holy encounters, we have holy encounters with family, friends, people in the street, when we go to the market, we have them all the time. But you can just imagine if you were in a prison and your miracle capabilities were zoomed into, well, you've got this amount of time to do this, this, this, this. We have free reign. We use cameras, computers, we use emails, we're Facebooking, we're messaging, we're tweeting, we're having fun. We're using all these mechanisms of the world to radiate and shine this happiness and we seem to be interacting with a lot.  But imagine for Dale where he's just there and the witnesses that he's seeing some witnesses but many of those of his family, like his wife Holly and some of his friends, they think he should be trying to escape prison. They think he should be having ambitions for the future. Like what's the point? How do you endure prison unless what? You have a future. It's discovering how do you escape prison except in the present, the present moment. You see how different that is from a future escape? Does anybody remember that in the course, in the section called the immediacy of salvation? Jesus says, be not content with future happiness for it is not your just reward, for you have cause for freedom now. Jesus is calling us into the present moment. Join me here now. Don't wait. Don't put it off until you achieve something. Don't think of spiritual enlightenment as a future achievement. If you do, you're just going to have to realize that you still have a gap between now and the time when you forgive. That's all time is. That's all this projected, generated future is. There's a gap in the mind between the solution, the forgiveness, the release of right now, this moment, the power of now that Eckerd talks about. This is where it's all at. And then when you keep looking to the future for escape, he's saying, no, you have cause for freedom now. And this is what Dale is going through now. He's actually zooming in. He doesn't have Living Miracles community. He doesn't have online retreats. He's not allowed to have online retreats. He's not allowed to have emails. He's not allowed to have anything electronic and digital. It's prohibited. And yet without all of that, which we are all so grateful for, guess what he's doing? He's doing what Jesus asked him to do. Join me. He's showing us. He's giving us a witness that you don't need a lot. He can't even do email. He has no funds. He has no possessions. He's in what the world would say is a very controlled environment, but all of consciousness is controlled until you put it under Christ control. All of consciousness is controlled. All of our worlds are just as controlled as Dale's until we say, Jesus, you be in charge. You lead the way. You show me.   I give you my mind. I give you my heart. Holy Spirit, lead the way, because this is just an example of someone who's basically decided, I'm going to go for it. In fact, it is some point where he must have read my books and he's read the Course and he started writing me and saying, wow, what I thought was spirituality wasn't really spirituality at all. He said, this stuff is deep and I'm going to go for it and I trust you and I trust Spirit and I'm going to go for it. We're now seeing the results of that going for it. As you can imagine, people assume I'm crazy or institutionalized, he puts, with a smiley face. This is fantastic. Imagine being called institutionalized and putting a smiley face after that word. Now that's a state of mind. Somebody comes and says, you're institutionalized. You should be locked up. You are locked up. You should be kept locked up and he's smiling, smiley face. You say to always ask, how does it feel? This is what he turns it around. He says, me, David, you say to always ask, how does it feel? I feel great in capital letters with exclamation. I feel great. He's using the one right use of judgment that Jesus says, how do you feel? And he says, I feel great. He's not concerned that people call him crazy. He's not concerned that people say he's institutionalized. It doesn't seem to be a problem. He doesn't seem to have a problem with that. I would say because of who he's listening to, his inner voice and Jesus and the spirit, you know, and he feels great. I love it. I feel great. Exclamation point. I can lose nobody nor do I need to convince anybody of my beliefs. Wow, that'll help all of us for Christmas, right? I don't need to convince anybody of my beliefs. That helps with those family gatherings. And you can just go and enjoy the turkey and chicken and stuffing and whatever and just have a good time. If you're there to convince somebody about their beliefs, well, that's going to make it hell. And Dale's not concerned at all about convincing anybody of the beliefs. Because they all reside within my being. It is all underlined, my own consciousness projected outward for me to wake up. Then he says, is this delusional? He's asking me. I hope if I give you his address, I hope you write to him and say, oh, listen, buddy, you're far from delusional. You're making my day here this Christmas. You're giving me the greatest gift not in money or possessions or agnog or all kinds of foolishness, jewelry. He's given the greatest gift there is to give. Freedom, freedom of mind that Morpheus was talking to Neo about. I'm here to free your mind, Morpheus tells Neo. So he's offering quite some gift.  Please help me, David, because if I'm right, then this letter wasn't ever necessary because the life I am inquiring about was never real in an ultimate sense, smiley face. There goes the letter. No, he's forgiving the letter even.  It's all consciousness. I love you, buddy. And thank you for helping me. I need guidance. Take care and have a blessed and happy holiday, exclamation. Merry Christmas, exclamation. Always me. And then he puts, I apologize for my writing. My typewriter was sold. After all these typed letters I got it, this is the first hand letter. So now, everything is taken away. Even the typewriter is gone. And that still doesn't stop him. He writes in red ink, you know, he still continues on. So this is, I was blown away with Hurricane Carter and then all of a sudden Jesus is like, wow, I'll give you your own Hurricane Carter symbol that you can correspond with and everything. So anyway, maybe we can take this down and put this up for later too, but I'm just going to, I'm going to give you his name, his PO box and his address. So if any of you feel guided, you can imagine the look on his face when he probably doesn't get any mail at all. If this Christmas he ends up getting some letters just of what you felt in your hearts when the hearing about Dale. So his name is Dale Crow C-R-O-W-E kind of like Russell Crow. If you forget it, just think of Russell Crow. Dale Crow PO Box 5500 Chilacoffee. Now I'm from Ohio, so I know how to spell it, but I'm going to spell Chilacoffee because it sounds very native CH-I-L-L-I-C-O-T-H-E Chilacoffee Ohio OH is the abbreviation and the zip code is 45601 Thank you, Dale. Wow. So that's going to open it up for us today because we can see how deep this goes because of Dale's example and we can see that we don't have to make this like a long and difficult thing. Like waking up shouldn't be like pulling teeth. It doesn't have to be that difficult. It only seems like a struggle. It only seems like a challenge to the ego who does not want to give up your mind. Basically the ego is like a parasite that has taken over the mind and now when you're coming in with the solution, the the antidote, the correction for the ego, the ego seems to be fighting and kicking and screaming a bit because it wants to control your mind and actually that's not God's will. God's will is for you to have perfect happiness to wake up to remember who you are. So that is just like an example of someone who doesn't seem to have much in ways of worldly attachments and yet he's just using in connection with the Holy Spirit in Jesus, he's just using what's presented to him every day to drop, to drop deeper and deeper into this certainty of identity of the Christ.