But first do all schools is still working to land a permanent superintendent the former superintendent Diana green took Leave at the beginning of June this year and officially retired in July Amidst a wave of teacher misconduct complaints will brown or reporter with Jacksonville today has been following the story and will is here With me now will how are you? I am great. Good morning. Good morning and listen you at home. Yes I'm talking to you. You can join the conversation. Give us a call 549 2937 You can tweet us at FCC on air first goes connect at W JCT or you can find us on Facebook and Instagram We are here for you and asking you to join the conversation. So will When I was beginning this conversation, I started off by saying Former superintendent Diana green took leave at the beginning of June this year and officially retired in July Amidst a wave of teacher misconduct complaints that is an over simplification of the situation when it comes to Dr. Green and her tenure as a super as superintendent. Can you kind of fill in the blanks for me a little bit? Well, a lot of these blanks were started by my wonderful, but departed Jacksonville today colleague Claire Heddles Who did some outstanding reporting in short? There were a number of teachers, I think for during The second half of the 22 23 academic year who were placed on miscount who were placed only for a variety of misconduct issues One was arrested and charged who is he's since pled not guilty And after he was arrested he went into he took retirement Others were for just comments that were said in the classroom and school board member Laurie Hershey says that what took place at Douglas Anderson School of the Arts was the game changer for her in terms of Dr. Diana greens tenure as Superintendent of Duvall County Public Schools You know there when when dr. Green was forced out When dr. Green was Took retirement, excuse me earlier this spring You know and some school board members even mentioned like the shooting that took place at Raines High School in 2018 as Justification that she's not keeping children safe. That was what they were saying. Yeah, all of this sounds really trumped up and I would just say that I As a parent in Duvall County as I am yes, I'm much older than you though I'm about to go back on you. I'm a seasoned parent. I don't have children in Duvall County schools right now all my kids have graduated but three of my kids went to Douglas Anderson and One specifically of the people that were removed out of the classroom And and I would say that like, you know back in the day like, you know, we're talking about Man 2015 maybe even before that like I did a lot of volunteer work at Douglas Anderson and I worked with a lot of students And I would hear comments about this teacher Way back then right so I guess what the point I'm trying to make is that this one of the teachers that was removed out of the school Everybody knew what was going on at least the good all the students that I talked to and including my kids Knew that like this person was not You know was was was being a little extra in the classroom being inappropriate in the classroom I won't say that like they knew specifics of it But I would just say that like there was a lot of inappropriateness and in and with this individual so that predated Dr. Green's tenure as Superintended so using something that Predated her as well as like going all the way back to 2018 with the shooting at Reigns It just feels like you know from an outside view that These charges were somewhat an excuse to push forward an agenda Well, you know this spring a number the people who supported dr. Green Just from the observations that I had sitting in school board meetings Were a multi-generational Multiracial multicultural background of people who believe that she was doing fantastic work for Duval schools You know, it was everyone from the NAACP to Organizations that were trying to curb gun violence To pastors who supported her Even former congresswoman Corrine Brown came into the school board and I think she said out of a one to ten scale that dr Green deserved a ten plus was one of the few times I saw a bit of a chuckle from dr. Green About that conversation, you know, there are obviously others who had criticism some of which were about keeping children safe about Douglas Anderson and and some of the complainants had took issue with the perceived lack of transparency from the district from a financial perspective Yes, not to say like everything that I was saying is not is not to say that like there weren't valid critiques. I'm just saying that pinning Teacher misconduct that's been going on for years to a superintendent and making that the reason Seems like there has to be other things that were involved in it other other issues that people had that that I don't know Like I people haven't spoken to You know, there hasn't I'm putting you in a tough spot Because because that like there as a reporter there are things that you Know in facts that you can back up and then things that are unknown And things that you cannot back up factually and here at WJC T We deal in facts and not in a new window and all that I'm merely saying So I'm not so I'm not asking you to to comment on Rumors, I'm merely saying or asking What are the concrete things that have been pointed to as to why she was pushed out? I Mean really the the Douglas Anderson situation was was really white You know led four members of the school board Because it was four to three vote that that got rid of that that led to dr. Green The led to school deciding to leave right accepting her her retirement after five years You know, she she has not finished working. She's now the CEO of the children's literacy initiative But I've heard from people in town. She's still been in town Over the last few weeks over the last few months Doing big things So but the Douglas Anderson situation really seems to have been a tipping point the tipping point Yeah, and would it be safe to say that the four members of the school board that Had issue with dr. Green that they are in line with governor DeSantis's Way of thinking as far as education is concerned. No, no one of the people who did Approve one of the four the current chair dr. Kelly Coker, you know, it's probably stated like she's on the figurative To defeat list of school board members That that has floated out there throughout the state Of school board members from a variety of districts who are coming up for election or re-election in 2024 and and Coker has expressed a bit of pride that she is on that On that list of people to defeat and we've got a comment from Tom on Facebook He says with the growing influence of mom's for liberty with with the growing influence of mom's for liberty We need a superintendent that will stand up for their teachers. Dr. Green just sacrificed Dedicated an innovative teacher Amy Dinofrio, excuse me when there was a backlash against her empowering students During the name change process at their school I do know a little bit about about this because this was a story that I've reported many many years ago about the change from Nathan Bedford forest high school into oh no, excuse me. This was the lease Lee high school Yes, this was the change of Lee high school into Riverside high school, correct and if I remember correctly The teacher in question was really advocating for the kids to have a voice and and speak out against this Yes, and I think she had like a black lives matter flag in the classroom and That was apparently a problem Yeah, and I think if I recall correctly again again Claire Hiddleston some fantastic reporting for us at WJCT about it But I want to say that after the flag was unfurled in the classroom And she accepted a settlement from the district and everyone's kind of kept it moving. Yeah, and we're gonna go to the phones We've got Elizabeth on the west side Elizabeth, how are you this morning? Good morning? I'm doing well. How are you guys good? I'm actually over on the inner coastal west. I'm calling because I think that this whole situation around dr. Green is just tragic You know, I think she's been she was a great champion for our schools and our students and When you bring divisive politics like mom's for liberty has done on our school board You see these agendas move forward without regard for our local Voice our local control and the wishes of the community We've already seen we just were just passed restorative justice program And one of the board members went to the Department of Education to try to get that program Investigated and it's not the will of our community the things that they're doing I'm part of a group called public school defenders and we're working really hard to make sure that our public schools are Protected and that the community knows the truth about what's happening It would be some which haunt political agendas going on Elizabeth, thank you so much for calling in in your comment Well Who on the school board is aligned with mom's for liberty? Well, we're confident that April Carney is is one who was elected to the school board with a strong assist From from mom's for liberty Mom's for liberty has said that they are a Organization that advocates on on behalf of children And they say that they they put children first that is what they say I think last week when Governor DeSantis was here in Jacksonville. They were to discuss COVID policies and and You know not having the government force people into Taking COVID vaccines including the new vaccine. It's interesting that they don't want to force people into taking the COVID vaccine But they do want to force people to not be able to read certain books. It's sort of like we can We don't want To be forced to do this but yet we want to force you to do that, right? Like it's it's Holding the two things together like it just at times doesn't make sense, you know I saw someone at the Governor DeSantis events one week ago with a t-shirt a navy t-shirt that said my body my child my choice my rights That that is their perspective as a parent I Mean I I don't hide the fact that I'm the parent of a Duvall County Public School child Or Duvall County Public School students In that helps inform my reporting I don't I don't editorialize at all, but I'm on Duvall County Public School campuses all the time either as a parent You know students at my child school don't know me as a reporter. They know me as so-and-so's dad. Yeah So people are entitled to their perspective, but April Carney is definitely one who is Has ties to mom's for liberty there I Think it'd be unfair for me as a reporter say that there are others who are connected with mom's for liberty Because I don't know with hundred percent certainty. Sure, but I'm confident about Board member Carney's connections. Yeah organization So what's going on with the the hunt the the search for and actually before I do that Let me just say that you listeners can call in and join this conversation You can call us at 5492937 you can tweet us at FCC on air first coast connected WJCT dot org And you can hit us up on Facebook or Instagram And I was just asking you will So what exactly is going on with the hunt for a superintendent? So the superintendent if you'd like to be the superintendent of Duvall County Public Schools. No, sir There's I know sir to me either But the Apple applications are open tomorrow They open tomorrow and will be open until October 13th The Florida School Board Association is is facilitating the search on behalf of the school board They have told the school board members that they will not filter anyone.  It will be submitted to the school board Will you probably get the position almost assuredly not? But you know that we we do have a list of The qualifications the the minimum qualifications and the preferred qualifications on our website jack today org I think for those of those of you who who followed FCC on air on Twitter. There's a photo that that was placed this morning That's actually a school board member holding up the qualifications during Tuesday's board workshop So if you zoom in on that picture, you can read every single word of the qualifications that they're looking for in the next superintendent I am 100% sure that I am not qualified It would not want that job for anything at all. Oh my goodness. No, no, no, no All right, so we're gonna go to the phones. We've got Stanley on the north side Stanley my friend. How are you this morning? Man, I'm doing fantastic and hello to everybody involved My first concern of I won't send prompt side to dr. Green For the city of Jacksonville in justice They did miss green wrong Okay, number two, I Want to know why when we're gonna take politics out of education? You're doing a disservice to the students the all the students Do you want to have in a hard time just dealing with their parents? They don't need to be dealing with all this going on in these schools in the school system, sorry about that and this This This politics need to go. Thank you Thank you Stanley. I think I don't I don't think politics are ever gonna get out of schools I think when you look at The history of the United States of America I mean some of our biggest Supreme Court cases around race and segregation and desegregation all of that stem from the the the schoolhouse from education and I think that education is is I Hear what you're saying Stanley. I Wish that could be true that we could take politics out of Schools, but history tells me that that's not gonna happen and that actually like where we are right now our school grounds our battleground for many different I Don't know I kind of don't like the term culture war Because it it makes it sound like the culture is not as important as politics, you know, it seems like an offshoot But it's actually Fully a part of the main, you know, political clash But we can see that like the those wars are playing out here with with groups like Moms for Liberty and groups that oppose Moms for Liberty We we see all across the country last couple years when it came to co vid like that It was the number one, you know, the first battleground about Masking and all those type of things. So so yeah, I totally hear Hear what you're saying, but I don't think that that's gonna change in any time soon And we've got a caller on the line, I think It's not coming through yet But if you want to join the conversation you can call in at 5492937 you can tweet us at FCC on air first goes connected Wjct.org and the caller is here. We've got Philip on the west side Philip. How are you this morning? Philip you there? Philip Philip Philip. All right, so Phillips not there if you Call back we will get you on So will when it comes to the hunt for a superintendent Are there any Candidates that we know that are gonna apply people that we would know that that are gonna apply. I wish I could say yes But it was a bit of a amusing moment at least to me during Tuesday's board workshop When the school board members noted that, you know, people will ask about who will apply for this position Once they start applying and I nodded vociferously and and let them know, of course, I will be sending in a public records request. It's Yeah, it's a guarantee. I mean is my name brown am I tall? Yes, I can affirm that your name is brown for listeners who don't know he is tall So I will be sitting in a public records request. Um, probably multiple times a week So I do not know who will apply but that was one of the concerns Initially of the board that they did not want to become a Broward County 2.0 and what's happened down in Broward County is their superintendent left and It's the board tried to open up the superintendent search and they did not get the quality of candidates that they were expecting and that led to You know Broward the Broward school board They eventually found a superintendent, but the process was longer and more convoluted than they initially thought The Duvall school board was cognizant of that and so one read those one reason why they some members of the board I think Warren Jones was one and I think Charlotte Joyce was another Who this week were looking to see if maybe they could slow down the search a little bit So they could get a candidate to come in at the end of the year instead of coming in mid-year But you know Tuesday's workshop wasn't something where they could take action But they did come to the consensus that they wanted to keep the timeline that that was established earlier and had been communicated to the community that The news, you know, the applications will be open until mid-October They'll select some find semi finalists in October the finalists will be here in Jacksonville if the timeline stays as currently indicated the second weekend in Jackson excuse me the November 16th and 17th and then You know, I hope no one's going out of town for Thanksgiving because the new superintendent may be selected on Tuesday November 21st Which is two days before the Thanksgiving holiday. Yeah, and we've got a comment on Facebook. It's thank you for the conversation Alan will elections matter and there are potential there could potentially be six of the seven board seats on the ballot next year Is that accurate? There is oh, I want to say there's a lawsuit that's that's being adjudicated at the moment about whether in terms of the maps redistricting maps again elections matter Yeah, that that that part of the comment is 100% elections matter. Yes. The part I'm asking is about like our Sixers six of the seven chairs my understanding is four are definitely going to be up for reelection And the two others depending on some lawsuits may also be up for reelection depending on how how that goes So it's possible that six of the seven are up, but my understanding is four definitely are. Yeah, I think the the The thing that like We haven't really the person that we haven't really talked about a whole lot in this conversation That kind of looms over it all is Governor DeSantis and his willingness to actually get involved in school boards which feels I Don't know. I don't I Reporting in Jacksonville for the last 15 years. I don't remember that Actually happening with the governor before being as active as DeSantis has been throughout the state with with with school boards and also with the you know his mandates with education with his you know his don't say gay and his Laws around or his you know edicts around COVID all of that type of stuff like he's very involved in it and Also like the changing of the standards of like what can be taught in schools and so forth and so on it's a lot And it feels like all of those things puts The profession of teaching in the state of Florida in a very precarious situation And I'm wondering if if we're seeing that across the board. Well, I talked to teachers throughout the region Most of them just are so we'll say well, this is off the record like come on And they will tell me that the teaching profession has been made more challenging in recent years And this isn't just you know people who lean on the liberal side of the perspective This is people who are conservative as well. We're like, yeah, it's it's more challenging Because there's been so much So many people trying to put their thumb on the scale in terms of what is taught or what can be taught What's allowed to be taught? So it's you know, and it's not just It's not just educators in the Duval district. I I go a lot of different places and and we'll hear from educators and and Just cut usually it's like a ride shake of the head of like. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot tougher now Hmm, excuse me I wonder if people who Have the same type of qualifications as dr. Green Nationally look at like what's happening in Florida as a concerns Education and maybe would think twice about coming to Florida because of of the political unrest well, that's what Happened in Broward County and that's what the Duval district was concerned about was that they weren't getting the The applicants that they thought they might now granite dr. Green and the last two superintendents of the Full-time superintendents have been in-state superintendents dr. Green came from Manatee County and dr. VD came up from Miami-Dade So But also here's the thing a number of the the bigger districts because the school board has indicated They want someone who has experience with at least 25 in a district with at least 25,000 students As well as some in experience in their career of working in rural urban and rural Excuse me for all urban and suburban Settings They're not a whole lot of districts in this state that have those qualifications that don't have a new superintendent the number of Appointed superintendents in this state that has turned over over the last two and a half years is More than a dozen. Yeah, all right We're gonna go to the phones and Philip from the west side is here Philip. How you doing this morning? very good, I wanted to comment on What the caller said about taking politics out of the education system and To state that the reason why the Santas and his legislature have politics in it is they want to keep people dumb enough to vote Republican and on a more important note Teachers know when students are failing to let a student fail Is deplorable What we need to be doing is making retired teachers tutors To help these students to keep them from failing because a failing student is a failing society All right, Philip. Thank you so much for your call and comment. We also have a comment on facebook parental rights It's from lisa on facebook parental rights as fermented by the santas is a misnomer It only applies to a fringe minority of extreme far-right groups like moms for liberty And the whites of premises whom they align those who want full quality education for our children Which prepares them to be competitive in the world and to be able to coexist with others who are different from them We are a majority and our rights have been denied in service to political pandering To ignorance racism and bigotry Um, and so that that comment is from lisa, uh lisa, I would uh just Refer back to uh the earlier comment, um from kate, which said elections matter You know And you know, I've I've spoken in professional and personal capacities with a number of PTA presidents, um in in duval county. I spoke with one last week Um and we should we we should do the disclaimer here though.  She is. Um Um, yes, I am married to a pta president. Um, she she does a lot for for our child's school. Um You know, uh, but the person I spoke with was not my wife about this. Um, it was last week at a superintendent search Uh community meeting at reins high school, uh the pta president of a north side elementary school Uh, you know told me that You know, some of the she really started to get really more involved in her child's school because she saw Quote policies that are race related that our legislature and governor are doing close quotes Those were her words. Yeah so, you know When it comes to this, uh, uh subject, um It it feels like, uh, what parents seem to do is get active and involved Yes, um, and and and make sure that their voice is heard not just, uh in the, uh, ballot booth But in any conversations that are going on in the school Uh and around like, you know, if you don't like the direction that the schools are going in the only way that it changes Is if you show up and you show your power for either side, whatever your belief is because, uh, it it seems pretty clear that, um One side of the argument, uh is showing up and is making changes Uh, and if you don't go out and make your voice heard, um Then change will happen and you'll be left behind and not not actually be able to affect that change Got to be in it to to to actually make change and that is what that parent told me, um When when I spoke with her last week, you know, she said, you know, I can't I can't sit on the sidelines I want to be involved right on will brown reporter for jacksonville today and my friend. Thank you so much for coming in today Thank you for having me


Hello. Oh, I updated the title. Hello, everyone. Hopefully the title is right. Hello, hello. We'll just hang out here for a little bit while people get going. All right, hopefully it looks okay. Hopefully you can hear me. Hopefully the fan isn't too loud. Hopefully I'm not too sweaty. We'll get this camera tweaked a little bit too. Hello, hello. Hello, hello. Hello, Beata. Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'll start saying hello to folks as I see you. Hopefully we're going to get the number of folks to hang out with us today. I think we've got plenty to talk about. Hopefully it's not too echoey. All right, I'll do one more minute. One more minute and then we'll get going. Hello, David. If you want to join the Discord, you can go to adafru.it-slash-discord. That's what the middle box here is. Happy Friday, Fome Guy. Thanks for doing last week. I really appreciate it. David says I'm early. I'm early. Yeah, I mean I'm on time. Yeah, I clicked it like two minutes early just to give me some chance. Quinman16 says show us the new office Scott. I won't move the camera, but I can talk about it, I guess. Is this Discord says all the boxes, so many boxes. David says hello. Yeah, lots of boxes.  Hi, Yanni, just in time. I have another camera here that was former Catcam, but some reason it's not showing up. It might not be plugged into the computer, we'll see. So it'll be a little hard to show more than what I've got behind me. All right, let's get going. Hello, everyone. My name is Scott and I work for Adafruit on Circuit Python. If you don't know what those things are, Adafruit is an open source hardware and software company based out of New York City. I work remotely from Seattle. Hello, Forest. Is this Discord says Catcam is best cam? Catcam is no longer, unfortunately. I've since moved to an office that's outside the house and the cats are at the house still. And no, I did not set up a remote Catcam either, sorry. So Adafruit does open source hardware and software. I work for them on the software side, mostly. And Circuit Python is a version of MicroPython or Python designed for tiny inexpensive microcontrollers. They're little tiny computers that are all self-contained and pretty inexpensive to get into, which is great. So Circuit Python makes it really, really easy to just get right into programming and stuff. And I just realized my audio is still coming out my speakers. This is a nice thing about working in an office now. I can play things out there. Forest asks, how are you feeling today? Pretty good, little hot. It is 82.5 degrees Fahrenheit in here, which is like, it's been 80 most of the day, but it's the afternoon. There's a window here in the new office. It's south facing, which in Seattle means that it gets a lot of sun. I do have a fan in the window that's just off camera there. Trying to blow cooler in here, but it doesn't do a great job at cooling it down. I've ordered or told somebody on OfferUp that I will buy their AC. So hopefully next week I will have, next week I will have, I'm sorry, I got a slack message. So next week I should have an AC and hopefully it will be not quite so hot in here, which will be cool. So I'm going to do that after I pick Ari up from Daycare. Hello Dishapu. Yeah, so if you want to support me and this office space that I've got, you can go to Adafruit.com and purchase stuff there. There's all sorts of different hardware that you can buy from Adafruit, whatever suits your fancy, whatever projects you have in mind, that's a great place to get started and take a look and see what we have to offer. So that is it for kind of the getting started side of things. David says it's about 100 degrees in inland Southern California. That sounds way too hot for me and I would definitely already have AC if that were the case, but I think outside it's more like 70, but this room is like, I've been, I worked, I worked here kind of like all, all this week and because I moved a lot over the last, last long weekend and it's been like hovering right around 80 or up to 80, 82, 83, 84, which is a little too hot. So yeah, getting an AC, which would be nice.  So there's a lot of like hair, haircut folks and nails folks and therapists and all sorts of, there's a like tattoo person, a hair person. So it's pretty neat. It's a, it's just a bunch of small businesses in this building and the South and the West facing that get the most sun, they also have AC outlets, which is great. So I'll be able to have an AC just like right next to me here and it just shoot, it'll be able to shoot outside, shoot the hot air outside without the window even being open. So that'll be good. I pretty much moved everything. So if this is your first time, welcome. I've been doing these deep dyes since kind of the start of the pandemic with a big hiatus as I had my first kiddo and thanks as always to FOMI guy for filling in on deep dyes for me. So I used to work from home. We had a spare bedroom and we had been thinking about making more space in the house by moving my office out and I found this space here and it fit kind of like all the requirements. I've got fiber internet similar to what we had at home, not a super expensive business class, but rather small business fiber that's actually cheaper than the version. It's the same thing that I have at home except it's a cheaper version of it which is a little weird. Well we'll see because it's not a fixed price anyway. Yeah so we're in fiber so hopefully streaming will be good. That was one of the requirements for the spaces I was looking at. I did look at a number of others and this is kind of the the one I settled on and the one downside of this space is that they don't want me to solder in this space so I did get a portable soldering iron and I'm also going to get to or go to a maker space here in Seattle that I might join as well. So that would be cool. I guess that's a bit of the office update I brought. So these things were kind of off-camera before but this is like an IKEA 2x4 bookshelf and then I have this Luvered Acro Mills. DCD says will you be discussing your new filing system? Yeah that's where we're going with this. So these are like Acro Mills bins and they kind of hook on this gray panel there that you can see and I had the setup in the old office before but you could you could not see it before me before but when thinking about what to put behind me I thought like that could be kind of neat especially if I have to go get something out and then this over here is like a kind of a wire storage rack system where I've got these big plastic bins full of stuff and it's not all like strictly like a different related stuff but I have one giant box of cables for example but it's like all computer stuff right so I do computer support stuff and it's all computer computer related stuff here. So that's kind of what you can see and then I have you can also see the bottom of this new desk so I have a second desk to me now that is a new addition so I've got these boxes that I was going to talk about in a bit. I've got the PC byte thing here that you can't see but I have the hover cam and another the cat former cat cam here so hopefully this is going to be where you can't see but there will be a camera for is kind of where the dev board that I'm working on will sit rather than it used to be like right in front of me between my keys and my hands and stuff so my goal is to like kind of move the dev board stuff that I'm working on kind of out of my way where it's a place that can kind of fit or stay and not be bumped or anything. So the other stuff with this space so the space is 13 feet a little bit over 13 feet by a little bit over 12 feet which is about 170 square feet sorry I don't know what it is in metric and there's an inwall heater and the ceilings are like nine feet tall so there's like definitely room for like these shelves to get taller for storage space as well my plan is to bring like a carpet and a small couch kind of out over here so I've got like this new desk is kind of splits the room in two and so there will be like a like more I don't want to sit at my computer space like if I want to do stuff on my laptop it'll be over there but that's where I put a lot of the stuff as I moved it so it's been a lot of like throwing everything on the cat on the on the storage bins and all that and it's definitely work in progress but I got pretty much over everything off the floor or back into boxes so that I can start moving that the carpet and the and the couch into the room even though this like I'm not fully through organizing everything which is going to be a long long long process any questions about the office space it's a year lease so you should see me here at least for a year David says after the temperature and degrees fair and height we also get the distance in feet yeah sorry I'm I'm an American which doesn't for some reason we don't want to be like the rest of the world in terms of units hi Isaac Ben if you I don't know if we talked about it all but there was like a house in the lot outside the window here they tore it down like the day that I was moving stuff in and they're making a parking lot which is great so my view I have a view kind of out over um salmon bay which is like the well I can't actually see the water but I can kind of see out which is great so um I have somewhat of a view I can almost see oh I can just barely see the top of the space needle from here so the other thing I was thinking about instead of cat cam is I could actually put a camera up in the window there is also like like the main road is like I'm a block off the main road and there's a a drawbridge but I have it there's a big tree I don't know if we'd be able to see it I don't know if we'd be able to see it from where where I'm at okay so that's office details Tyeth says so you've had your tray cardboard boxes for a short time any improvements slash thoughts okay so let's talk boxes we talked office so when I was moving I was like you know I really need a I love a deep hopefully I said that right um so the way that I was organizing my dev boards is I have if you watch the screen before you know that I like to go on digikey and buy the latest dev boards as long as they're like within a certain price range because my job usually a large part of my job is um um bringing circuit python to new chips and and manufacturers will usually release a dev board for new chips and they usually subsidize them as well so like st is really uh really does a good job for like 20 to 40 dollars you can buy uh a very uh pretty powerful pretty good deal dev board for you know their new chipsets so uh so yeah um hello hams labs and I agree Isaac Ben Seattle is beautiful uh I hope the new place works out great for you yeah it's been really good so far um it's been really good I've been it it will be interesting to see because right now Ari my my child is uh in day care where we have to drive so I've been doing a lot of like driving to daycare and parking here and then driving to get him um but the long-term goal as in like next spring when he turns two is that um I'll be able to walk so I'll walk from here to his daycare and then walk or walk from home to daycare to here and and vice versa um so yeah um hams labs asks are we going to have the cat cam even though you aren't in the same place uh no I don't plan on setting up a cat cam um right now the cats are in the same like window in that room but that room is going to be um changing a lot because there's a if you I don't know if I mentioned it but there's like a roof leak above it and so I think what we're going to have to do is like take a lot of the drywall off so that we can have somebody figure out what what the problem with the uh with the roof is and actually fix it and then we'll have to redo all the drywall so there's going to be you know a lot happening in that room probably uh so the cats will hopefully find another place in the uh in the house to spend a lot of their time um yeah so the way that I did dev kits was like a mix of these acro bin acromills bins and um I also have like I'm so backwards these like smaller plastic bins I've also got a bunch of dev kits in um and they're like coarsely like separated by um coarsely separated by manufacturer but if I need to find something it's still very much like a dig through and figure out like what I'm looking for um which is not quite and it's it's not quite what I want it's a little hard to find everything and it's also like pretty inefficient space wise especially if you leave things in the boxes or bags that they came with um so I was I went on a little bit of a tangent in my own life researching um researching better ways to store dev boards right dev boards are typically pretty small pretty flat uh so uh the first thing I was thinking about is like a flat file system so there's these big cabinets you can get that have really shallow drawers and they're really meant for like blueprints or art prints or something where you don't want to bend them but you still want to store them flat and I found one on craigslist for like 500 bucks um and I put it into my like tentative layout of this space and it was just a little big and it was like I don't really need that um but what I do need is like I need a way to have all like a lot of shallow uh shallow drawers and uh another way to think about that is like how much surface area are you getting out of a solution um so that you know like this every drawer has an area to it and so the shallower the drawers the more area you can fit in a particular height so to speak right um so let me just uh talk through what uh Ty it's referring to so there's this new product this new thing coming out I don't actually know the details but um Tyler who has been working on it asked us to work on it so it's called um AdafruitPlayground.com it uses your same Adafruit account but just like the newsletter it's at a different domain which um is interesting so you'll see that some of us Adafruit folks have started testing it and um posted these are meant to be from my understanding these notes are meant to be um kind of works in progress nothing as formal or supported as a nothing as formal or as supported as a proper learn guide but it uses a lot of the same like editor interfaces anyway um so uh Lamore Ladyita asked me to like I've been talking about these boxes because it's been kind of an obsession um so she suggested that I write these up so here's a picture of my my snacks and uh these cardboard boxes that I did so um I wrote up the story but I didn't quite link to it so the uh yeah so I was looking for flat file cabinets and they're really expensive and they're really large and then the other way to go is like crafting a lot lots of crafting people get really uh detailed with how they want to store stuff and there's a site stampinstorage.com you can see here they're used for like stamp stamps not postage stamps um and they have them labeled and there's these night there are these nice shallow drawers and they they warn you that like the one inch drawers don't have sides um and it was I thought it was interesting because they have two configurations they have the standard configuration but then also for the Ikea Calyx which is this like um pretty iconic um uh like iconic bookshelf from Ikea I actually have and I learned this I thought I had this and then I moved it and I had to take it apart and I realized I actually have the older version and the older version has like thicker um like a thicker perimeter uh but the cubbies themselves are the same dimensions which is great um and they're super cheap so here you can see that like I have this two by four here um and it's 90 dollars which is not too bad um and that's like a pretty optimal size for what you get because you can see here that you get half the storage for 65 Ham's Lab says that's a a really good idea for board storage I may need to mod my lab to add them let's just open this image hopefully there's nothing you're worried about yeah so here you can see this is like the same steel shelving I've got um but I really didn't want to go plastic bin one of the challenges with plastic bins is they don't always fit perfectly well and then also it's a ton of plastic and they're not that cheap so I saw this and I was like well that's pretty cool and I was I liked the idea of going down the the rabbit hole of like let's create something that fits in this calyx bookshelf because the bookshelves are really cheap and you can get them in different sizes and blah blah blah blah so I thought that was really cool and I was looking at and I found this person on Etsy who does cardboard drawers um cardboard drawers for the uh the calyx and they have this like outer nice biota says and plastic bins do not hold all that much weight yeah well that that's not really a requirement of mine it's how much weight it can hold because I'm like I'm not gonna like dev bar dev boards are not that heavy um although I'm going to use it for other stuff as well but generally they're not that heavy so we can see here that like this person is leaning into the drawer model um where uh they have kind of like the outer things to hold all the different drawers and I was like and I you could they turned their shop off actually since I looked at it but you could buy a single drawer from them for like three dollars um three dollars a drawer which that still felt felt a little expensive to me now if you look at the stamp and storage one like if you actually pick the like if you do 10 single drawers in natural color it's 140 dollars us so that's like 14 dollars a drawer right like 14 dollars 140 divided by 10 um and the footprint here is like you know fits into the the calyx I like Mark's comment says wait we're not just throwing everything in a box and getting annoyed every time we can't find something oh I've done that plenty too especially right now I'm in that mode right I had some I had some boards set in drawers with that were in a black anesthetic foam and they all I just threw them in a box so they're I've got a lot more organizing to do Dave says maybe something modular that you could expand as required yeah so I think that's why I think that's why the calyx stuff is pretty nice so right now I've got this like it's not the calyx but it's nearly basically a calyx which is like two by four cubbies um but for like 65 bucks uh 60 bucks I can buy like another two by two and I could fit like a two by two on top of my two by four and still be able to reach up tall and I could fit another like on top of these this wire shelving as well so I've got like you know room for another 12 cubbies kind of in the footprint that I've already got set up for 60 bucks a piece so that's like of the shallowest drawers you know that's 40 40 drawers a piece so yeah I do feel like it is pretty modular be honest and also stacking them eight to ten deep is is okay if you're not gonna touch the stuff for a while and get paused projects off the table yeah so that is the other thing I do use these bins for is like particular projects that I'm working on like I'll have like a a bealy watch one I'll have a keyboard one I'll have I will have like project oriented containers as well um anyway so I I kind of like I really like this cardboard route because it's a sustainable material so it's like it's recycled cardboard um and when you're done with it you can recycle it um but you can also hack it right so you can just write right on it like one thing I don't like about these bins is that they have like paper slips that I use to write what's in it but like most of them the paper slips have fallen fallen off or they're out of date and that's pretty annoying so like being able to just take a sharpie or a pen or pencil and just write on the thing would be really cool and then of course if they're cheap enough and you know they get trashed or something you can just recycle them um if you want to put like black and aesthetic foam you could totally just glue it to the bottom right like the nice thing about it being really inexpensive and made of cardboard is you can kind of do what you want with it um so actually let me paste this link so I wrote all of this up if you want to follow along the other piece of the puzzle that uh really kind of like sealed the deal is I found this a company called eco and clothes no that's there that's not their front page um you know they're their pitch is sustainable packaging and they've got all of this stuff but the cool thing that they have uh is uh do I get it here custom packaging custom shipping boxes so um shipping boxes are you know the things that you would get something in from amazon in or from some other david says consider earthquake bracing if you stack higher than your head you don't have that stuff hitting your head totally and I need to do that thank you for the reminder top bot says for labels I like using every style labels that I write down gives a nice high contrast background yep luckily I think I'm right now I'm far enough away from the shelves that even if we had an earthquake it I would be far from it um if I had an earthquake I'd probably go under the desk here um that is something one of the other buildings I was looking at is like a 100 year 100 plus year old building and and it's brick and I just was like I don't know I think I do want like I think I would be willing to pay a little extra to be in a space that is more up to code so this building actually that I'm in now is only like five years old so hopefully it's up to up to the latest earthquake safety stuff anyway so I found this eco and clothes and the really cool thing about it is that the minimum charge for all orders is 20 dollars and so that means that like if you I looked for a bunch of other custom box places and they would have minimums like 1500 boxes and I I'm not going to do that right like I'm not gonna yeah I don't care how much a box costs if I buy 1500 of them I don't need 1500 of them so this was really cool to find it I mean I just did a bunch of googling and ended up here um and they originally so like I was originally thinking oh tray like tray is like the is like the uh drawers that I was looking at and then I was like okay well could I use like these pads to like make the outer thing to hold all the drawers and I was like wait wait wait like the disadvantage of something like a drawer or a tray is that if you tip it it'll fall out and I was like wait why don't I just get a box and then I can stock stack the boxes and um and then I don't need to worry about having something that holds drawers I just stack boxes so I ended up um the rsc and the fpf are like for different shapes but I want something pizza box like this is what people when I post pictures people have been responding with a pizza emoji because they are kind of like pizza boxes they were like really shallow but pretty big footprint um so I uh I went I ordered 20 of what I think of it is this TL which is a tab locking box and let me just show you so this is um they also have free samples so I ordered 20 of what I thought what I knew would work would work um and then I ordered like six more samples on top of that just to kind of like figure out the limitations so that's what this stack of boxes here is is all the samples um and this is all written up in the in the playground note that I talked about oh DCD says any pointers to a good source of anti static anti static phone mentioned earlier um I bought it off did a key and let me just uh pull this off screen and I'll find it in my orders and and once I find it in my orders I can I can share the link with you although I got um when I ordered it I made sure and get a got a thick one but um I think for the boxes I would uh I didn't find anything I'd search for foam and I would search for static um I don't know what would what would find it what is another term for foam maybe I need to look for anti static maybe this is a good for for Hisco has est safe foam sorry yeah I got it off did the key I don't remember I can find it later yeah great search that's what I'm thinking of hands labs said uh have you thought about going to pizzeria and seeing if you could just buy a few of their boxes so the reason that I don't want um pizza boxes I like I do want them to be custom sized because I want them to fit in this bookshelf so they're not actually as big as pizza boxes um I want something I know there's a reddit here where like it's things fitting perfectly um and so I wanted to get kind of maximize the space in these cubbies by getting boxes that were designed to fit within them so uh that's what this footprint is so here is oh let me be so actually let me let me cover this first so there's different types of boxes the two I ordered I most almost all of them are tab locking but I did get one literature mailer which has like a flap that tucks the front flap tucks inside rather than the tabs uh strength is the cardboard itself and then the dimensions so um I varied kind of like all three of these things and in my uh uh in my samples so um here I have this this is a box that I did that's taller than than most of them and what I've already had for pin header storage um is these they were they're they're like plastic bottles that we got during the pandemic with takeout cocktails um um and I've actually like separated out like these are all headers that are like single long and it's labeled one so like they're different uh het it's separated by header length so here you can see it's easier to see like the tab so a tab locking box is um um it's got a fold over here so this is like extra wide and then it's got flaps along the side that go in inside the the area and then the tabs go kind of between two two pieces of cardboard on each side and that makes it um harder for the top to come undone basically so the tab locking is that the friction the friction here on the tab um holds this uh holds this front flap here and the top on which is great so this is um a sample I got that is twice as tall as all the others so it's two and a quarter inches we're almost all the other ones I'd got were uh an inch and an eighth and all of these dimensions I'm talking about um are based on here which is the dimensions of the inside of the box so one of the things that I had to be cautious of is I can't just plug in the same dimensions as the uh as the calyx cubbies because I needed to account for the fact that like there's extra cardboard between the inside and the outside and I don't know exactly how deep or uh how thick it is so um that was something that I was experimenting with these boxes so this is uh this is the material I settled on so uh this material is 32 e and they have a good video that I linked in the playground but it's talking about um the 32 is the strength of like the paper that it's made out of and then the e is the fluting um which is like the wavy part of the cardboard so you can kind of see it uh products okay so here you can see like it's pretty thin fluting um that's e-fluting and it's a 16th of an inch and again sorry to my non-us folks that want to want to know about last time um yeah so uh that's one of them I actually don't have spots for two stacks of boxes I'll put it on my computer um okay so the here's one um and they actually labeled them for me as well so the samples get got labeled so this is a 23b so it's both um a different paper and it's also a different fluting so the fluting here is thicker than the um is thicker than the e so it's twice as thick so when in terms of shipping they say this is better for crushing um Fede too says did I get in the craft hour basically we're talking cardboard right now um sorry if you came from electronics but we'll get there this is all about storing electronics um and then this is 15 and three eighths by uh 12 and three fourths and uh one and a half high um and I I decided that um one it it tore kind of pretty much immediately here and that's a that's I think a function of the paper strength and then it's also just like pretty fat and not dainty um along these side edges so um for that reason and I think also like even though this is the same inner dimensions as as these other ones that fit it doesn't actually fit in the um it doesn't actually fit in the book shelf um which was the other thing I was testing so if if I did get it in this material which I think is maybe a little cheaper um we can just you basically want to go until your box price is over 20 and then that's the the actual cost so like if I switched materials here to the 23 b it went down five cents a box so it is a little cheaper um but it these dimensions do not work in the bookshelf uh because it's a much fatter box uh it's a much fatter fluting and the tabs that um maybe I could just kind of use this to show so the way that you fold it is that there's these this is the one you can see so these sides and then there's these tabs underneath and you can see this tab is ripped off so that's a function I think of the paper strength um and and then that flips over and kind of tucks into there um and even though this this box is an inch and a half high I think and it's still the tabs still still um tore so I I'm not going to buy any more of these actually when I was doing the the write-up yesterday I ordered more as well um so this I think is another sample and this is the sample that is um um so 13 13 and three eighths this is three seven five so that's three eighths um that is the depth of the bookshelf and that's exactly what Ikea specs are that um but it's both open in the front and the back so I don't really care if it hangs out a little bit um the 12 uh point eight seven five so that is uh 12 inches three eighths um that is the the width that matters that's the thing that's like knock it if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit flat into the into the cubby um and this is the biggest so this is 32e this is a stronger material with the thinner fluting and that's what I've settled on is like the best material um and this is the widest I could do that fits so it fits pretty snug the way that these go in is um the the tab actually goes to the left in the bookshelf let me just I'll I'll show you when I'm thick enough let me um take my mic off for just a second and I'll demonstrate you can take it and slot it slot it in and then you can see here like this says scmc zero I put these in earlier and so I can order open it up and it's got that so the tab is on the left hand side so that's the idea um the ship who says can't you just order a lot of pizzas uh I mean you could and that would be delicious but they wouldn't fit in the bookshelf um unless your pizzas happen to be the right size um yeah David says there's other cardboard things we should talk about yeah Fetty 2 says oh extra cool so you're sorting the huge collection of micros yes exactly so I wanted something you know I could have a ton of them they don't have to be completely full and I can um separate them out by like part family um I do have like the imx one I have is like all the imx are evks like that's in one of them but I also like this stack here is like esp 32 esp 32 s 2 s 3 h 2 c 3 c 6 like that's what all this stack is here and I'll do the same thing for nrf right and and as I find them so fpg a's will get done that way and um I have one that's for usb cables so like this is all a to see like 3.0 3.0 a to c sort of thing um yeah if that a 2 says extra points we're not doing it with plastic yeah that was I mean cardboard I don't need like the strength or rigidity of a plastic and I always find giant plastic things break like they don't like break completely but you know like handles and stuff will break and they're just not very pleasant to use so the nice thing about these is like um they're under two dollars a piece and then um yeah yeah so David says laser cutting your own cut board you could do that um one thing I don't like the smell of all things that are laser cut um but I have been looking at this maker space and they have both CNC and and uh and laser cutting so in theory you could do that um but for two dollars a box like that's it's not worth it to me I'd rather just order it you know compared to looking you know remember I'm coming from this like stampin storage where it's 140 dollars for 10 drawers where if it's a buck 90 if it's a buck 90 a drawer and cardboard that's like 19 dollars right like so I'm going from 140 dollars for 10 to 19 dollars for 10 um so I'm willing to pay some money to just have it made for me and I still have to fold all the boxes which is non-trivial um but I managed to do it okay let's go through the last samples just to show um I do talk about all of these a bit so this one doesn't have a label but it seems really thin so I think I did get one sample where I was doing them as one as an eighth but this is a just a single inch I think I think that's what this one is it's the same e-fluting and it's still the same strength um it's also possible that this is the one that doesn't fit so um I I did get one that is like 13 inches in this critical direction the the the bookshelf says it's 13 and a quarter wide but again we're not accounting for like the layers of cardboard on this side and this side in that measurement um and the 13 inch one didn't fit so I did try that as well the one inch is just a little too uh short the one and an eighth is is big enough that you can fit 10 of them uh in in a cubby which I thought was kind of a a good metric so this this one here is I think the same dimensions but it's uh the b flute again this is a 32 32 b so this is the stronger paper um stronger paper but with the b flute and you can really see how much like it's pretty it's much thicker and like these folds look chunkier um which also meant that even though this is the dimensions of the ones that fit with 32 e this one I don't think this um and it's only an inch tall as well so it's a little bit shorter than the other one so again I like the b flutes uh we're just not what I needed like they say like sometimes you'll get like a little more structure in the middle but we're not we're not storing super heavy stuff um oh so I did get one um lm box which is the flap tucked in so here you can see that like the sides here are not that they don't tuck in like a tab lock box and then you get this like one edge that goes in um it is not quite as tall as the other ones but um it is still 32 e and it's still tore along the edge one because it's got these like oh I didn't even put the tabs in there it's got these like super long and skinny tabs that go under here and like two of them or at least one of them tore off immediately um I think I could put the dimensions in um slightly differently so that it the boxes so that the flap was oriented the other direction um but I think I'm happy enough with the tab lock box boxes that that that's the way I'm going um you could do this but it's just like it doesn't close as satisfying as the other one either so I'm I'm all all about the tab lock boxes um so yeah I did try that and decided that wasn't the lm boxes are not not interesting let's see what this last one is this one might just it feels like it's the e e flute and so this is yeah this is the 13 wide button so this is the 32 e but 13 wide and if I take off my mic again we'll see it it doesn't fit 13 wide is too wide all right that is my my box tour any questions about boxes oh so I added more details good night Dave getting an affordable solution to your storage requirement Scott I think I do I think I found it and I and I wrote wrote it up so other people can do it too if they if they want foldable PCB box oh yeah the label maker I got it at goodwill for 20 bucks and it's like 100 bucks off amazon or something although the newer ones are all bluetooth to your phone I think so I spent more I spent more just getting new tape for it and batteries for it but it's been working well for this and I do intend I got I got a thicker tape which is what's on the boxes and I also also got a thinner one to actually just label the boards themselves with like what MCU is on them because they even though you can read it it's like can be kind of painful to read it off there um so yeah this is a goodwill find I was looking for that like toy that fill in the more I've been hacking to see if I could find a used one although I got a bunch of a bunch of horse toys as well when I was there enter off bluetooth the label maker I mean I could I'm happy that like I like this thing you just like punch it in and print it out although the default is like leaves a bunch of margin which I totally get because they want you to buy more tape but I uh so yeah that is my quest and figuring out the time to do all the sorting and stuff is is the challenge but I ordered 20 more of the small boxes and I ordered eight kind of double double height boxes as well it was like 60 60 bucks total and then shipping is another like 13 or 14 dollars ship's ground and it took I don't know how many days it took anyway that's my box endeavor if you want all the details you can go to this 80 fruit playground dot com uh and find the right up there and the pictures and let me switch to desktop so here here you can see like there's one two three four five six seven eight nine ten um and then you can see here this is the black anesthetic foam which I could I'll find um and then uh here's all the the imx evks in there as well and then here's the generic setting page they have a good video about the fluting here's the Ikea dimensions and then here's the actual as I typed it in there and then how to fold it so yeah that's 80 fruit playground that's my deep dive into all the things I learned about cardboard boxes and Ikea bookshelves um but yeah I'm pretty happy with it uh like I like the cardboard material I've always admired boxes I like so it's nice to have boxes that fit yeah no but no cat to sit in them I had somebody ask if they were cat compatible and I'll have to bring these ones that are a little bit too big home and get some pictures of them in it uh but I I didn't put them together until I brought them here all right well that is that was my approach and and this bookshelf that you can see it's diagonal against the wall right now but I'll I'm gonna push it back into the corner so you won't you won't be able to see the boxes um at least in there in the long term I'm I'm trying to figure out if I could fit another bookshelf in there which I think I can um all right it's 83 in here did you by chance count how many boards in the collection no I have not I have not even found all the boards I've done some st but I still have a big like most of that box that's behind my head that you can't see is full of st boards it's also got sandy boards in it um and then I did all my ES ESP boards from them I think are there but I I haven't counted it's a lot like um like this one that I had the picture of that's um the feather wings like that's just like most of my feather wing collection I have a similar thing full of feathers um that I've got to find and put in a box too so yeah I think for like generally I when I sort I try to sort Adafruit stuff separately um from like other manufacturers so I think I'll have like a feather wings a feathers a feathers um I have like a like these boxes will be great for storing displays um as well um which I kind of done already with this black and static foam uh in a drawers but in the drawers I had to like stack uh sets of static anti-static foam over each other otherwise I wasted a bunch of space in each drawer um so that's the nice thing about like getting the the minimum height for these boxes is an inch um so I could add the eighth of an inch and and basically not miss out on any boxes stacked in the in the cubby so yeah I have not collected how many boards I have it's probably a lot do I really want to know and how much money I've spent on them although the Adafruit ones I do get for free all right that is the first hour of deep dive any office or box questions before we move on to IDF 5 K config stuff and we should not have that AC but I'm going to get it today so anyway somebody can help me with the Adafruit spy flash sd card that is 512 megabytes generally you want to ask questions about it in one of the help with channels uh Fernando so help with channel maybe projects or depending on what software you're using there should be an appropriate channel for that I've not used it myself so I can't help with that David says maybe we need a future on circuitpathon.org to create an inventory of the boards we have at home and then there's a new firmware to test or bug section to the board you could send a message or check who could help in testing it I wouldn't want to be on that list because I have a lot of boards that I don't want to test on but generally I am like I'm working on ESP 32 s3 or now like pretty soon I'm going to be like I want to try circuitpathon on the c6 so like where's my c6 board or my h2 board this will make it a lot easier to find those and I noticed that they've merged in the start of support for the p4 into the idf which I'm pretty interested into hello love the factory I don't know I think we're testing there's also a matter of like we shouldn't actually put a lot of effort into boards that people don't use so by doing it by doing testing ad hoc you you kind of inadvertently get this prioritization of like you only test the things that people actually use you're welcome Fernando welcome welcome ha ha davis and sometimes it's faster to order a new board than to find the one I know I have somewhere yeah I mean that's try what kind of what I'm trying to combat and I I I generally can find what I'm looking for one of the ones that was like most difficult and I managed to find was like a one-wire temperature sensor because it's like just a loose part and that was one of the things that was more difficult to find generally like dev boards are pretty well labeled and stuff which is nice all right I'm hot but let's talk idf a little while may not make it to four but that's okay yeah mark says I have a tiny lcd screen I wanted to use I knew it is somewhere yeah screens are also great like it flat storage is also great for a bunch of screens I'll tell you that one of the toughest ones is like knowing what what yinx what yinx you have is really hard like they have they have markings on them but I don't know of a place that I'll actually tell you what the markings correlate to and like they actually have driver chips on them but the driver chips are like chip on glass so they're not as far as like I can't see with a naked eye like the labels for what the chip is so yeah yinx are are pretty tough yeah p4 is risk 5 c3 c2 and c6 are risk 5 as well I believe the c-series is which I think is like the way that um people are going to inadvertently get start using risk 5 cores is with those c-series I don't think I don't think um expressive is doing any more extensa cores past the past the s line I think they've announced that oh okay I was updating the bundle earlier I need to do that so what I've been working on is that we have this so yeah the p4 I don't even have you you can't actually get the p4 yet but if you want risk 5 expressive boards the c3 and the c6 and the c2 I think are all risk 5 cores and you should be able to get at least I have this I have c3s and c6s I don't think I have a c2 but maybe I should pick one up um anyway so we have a bunch of boards and we have these configs that are kind of independent so we have the goal so so the esp idf uses kconfig to configure settings before you're building the the idf code and there is these files called kconfig that define what the settings are and give you helpful information about what they are and what they depend on and what the defaults are um it's a thing that's inherited or I think it was created for the linux kernel it's at least used by the linux kernel um and what we try to do in circuit python is to factor out common settings cross boards so that um like boards get like configurations like similar boards you know like with the same esp module for example they would get the same sdk or sdkconfig settings um unfortunately that's not really how the idf expects you to use it they really I think expect you to have separate kconfig for every different board or project that you're doing um which makes it really hard for us to to maintain um so what we're what I'm looking at doing is is adding a bunch of these default files which have like a small set of settings um so that in the npconfigboard.mk file you just say some basic things like it's a c3 uh the flash is in dual mode at 80 megahertz it is 4 megabytes and if you don't have ps ram then then you wouldn't list it here either here you can see that both you have like flash and ps ram and then on top of that you're adding this like other flash sdkconfig um so the the the idea being that we want to minimize the differences in the kconfig or cross boards um we do allow boards to say um to override so when we pass this kconfig into the build system we we give it a list and the last in the list wins um so you can kind of like have things override other things um so what I'm trying to do is is reorganize the stuff a little bit these settings um are new-ish we used to use them just for flashing um the flash but now we're actually using them for uh the settings when circuit byte then is actually running because I think a lot of boards are actually not running at the fastest flash and ram settings that they could be uh which is unfortunate to say the least it basically means that we're like we're we're leaving a bunch of performance on the table you know any anytime it needs to load something for from flash or ram it just won't be loaded as fast as it could be given the hardware um so I've been trying to rework this we have an updater script so so in the in the idf mate basically what you would do is you would say sorry this is a different branch or a different thing I'm working on um but you would basically do menu config um which I had my first experience with the linux kernel that's why I associate it with it um but kconfig I think is designed for you to like browse this hierarchy and like set the settings you want for your individual projects um and all this stuff and then it will write out the file now what we have here is uh um we this is the debug output for a script that we have that tries to um write back these changes to the boards either the board specific file or the like collection of files that set the settings um so the way that I like to look at what happened uh the easiest is just with this uh diff tool so what what is it changing versus what we have checked in already um so what board do we use we did s2 feather so if we look here we have the stk config um and here's some stuff that ended up in the board config um and this is wrong so maybe this is where we start in fixing it so the idea being is that like these what this file should have is any deviations from the standard circuit python settings so it allows board makers to actually do uh specific settings um but there's like stuff here about like the coprocessor and the uh the camera support that's just not right um or at least it doesn't need to be in here it should be able to go in um it should already be in like circuit python defaults so it shouldn't have ended up in this board's thing so we can see here like here's the s2 settings so these are all the things that are specific to an s2 should end up in here we could see like coprocessor enabled equals y is here so there's uh it's unclear why oh I guess it's not in here coprocessor type is in here um which maybe we don't even want I don't know and then we have separate settings for like ps ram speed and ps ram related settings so the idea is that the circuit python build will mash these different default settings together to produce uh what we want and then we need this update script that allows you to run menu config and then only put the things that you change from circuit python in that final file which it's not doing correctly right now there's also another mode where you can run the update or script to update all of the files that a particular board was based on so the main challenge there is like given a particular setting like does it depend what thing that circuit python wants you to be able to set does it depend on is it target specific is it specific to having ps ram is this specific to ps ram space and size and things like that um all those sorts of questions so um that's what this update or script is and it's a kind of a nightmare nightmare script but the thing that I've been doing with the idea 5 update is I'm trying to make it more versatile by actually loading the k config setting the k config information itself so k config will say like the default is based on the default value is based on these other dependent values or or or this thing only shows up to based on these other values and that will give me a clue like does it mean that it's dependent on ps ram or is it dependent on the target for example uh those are the main ones because ideally I'd be able to run like this update or script for every board and um it would be it would not change the shared files if it's if it's working correctly um so what does that mean so maybe we just start where this bug happened so um what we're seeing here is this is like the traversal of the menu system um and it's showing settings it thinks we care about where they go and it's printing out like what um or at least it should be printing out kind of where it's going you can see like here config ur isr and iran is going to board for some reason um and now the question is why is that the case um why is it going to board um and this is a script I've been working on a lot so it's got debugging in it and it's probably just broken but some of these like they it should just be obvious that it's um it's the default value and it should do a check that that it doesn't go in the default value so um like the camera settings shouldn't end up there because those should be the default for circuit by them update SDK config and I'm really looking forward to this AC that I'm getting in like two and a half hours because it's too hot in here this like I use this uh clock temperature sensor and it's got the little face on it and the face is just like uh it's too hot and I agree it's too hot it was happy earlier and now it's not just like me so any questions about kconfig or this config setting stuff I know it's like it's definitely like the deep dive part of the deep dive ah so here it's like if not update all and not matches cp default or we are updating all it's in the board settings thing and it doesn't match the esp default then we put it so we just did a not update all but the the circuit python default was wrong please explain your use of the IDF okay so the IDF is like the the SDK that um expressive provides and we kind of abuse how we use it so we'll use it to build libraries that that encapsulate the expressive provided code for particular functions and then we will link circuit python against that um so like the all the wi-fi stack stuff is in the IDF all of the like drivers for peripherals is in the IDF that sort of thing um but we don't leverage the IDF to do like the final linking step we do that ourselves uh against the circuit python objects um so I'm a little bit if it doesn't match the esp default yeah okay hopefully that was an update in board board board board board so it goes in the board if it's not update all and not matches let's put that as a thing too so basically like everything that's going to end up in board let's print that out so now we'll do menu config again we actually have to just load it and quit it interesting there there it stayed the same so this could be one thing that's really nice about no it's empty one thing that's nice about using git is you can just say like oh let's undo that so there's s2 again let's leave that one of the other main challenges is like for these shared the things that we're trying to make shared like they may have like some some targets may have more settings than others and like how you manage that it's a huge pain okay so we deleted that and now we see that all of these um these camera things these camera things are ending up in the board settings even though they shouldn't be which is weird so the question is why and let's actually not just cp default so let's just um so temporarily we'll we'll and they probably won't have them again because now they're that's weird i should make a target that doesn't require us to do menu config see so this this thinks that the default is no no for circuit python even though i thought the main file had those so we ignore boards and we just go to sdk config to false i thought that oh it is not set so it is correct this is wrong i don't know why got messed up so let's just go back and see like some things won't have camera on but it should at least say that if it's on then they're enabled so we have like target defaults and then we had defaults that are for all of them i guess it added them but they're not it added them as not set so i would rather do the reverse so what we can do is instead of menu config we can do the update all and that should hopefully change the see it just removed it yeah this is kind of like where i've been i'm like it's just not a good it's not a good configuration system for like circuit python is weird right like most of the clients for esp are going to do a project or two right and it's okay for them to have two sdk configs and manually keep them the same but with circuit python we have how many boards and we want to make sure that the sdk configs are the same um so this might be a target thing so let's just take a peek at this esp camera library and see what their k config so it says default yes um which is why it's being omitted so if if it if it matches the default then we won't include it so maybe that is correct then it's correct to remove this 2040 megahertz because some of the c chips don't run at 240 so it is actually a target setting um so i i kind of want to lean mean into this being correct more correct this is wrong because it's not a debug build so one thing we have to make sure of as well that i is that i do clean so let's do a clean and let's remove just delete this discard the s2 changes too okay so we're back in like the current state and now we'll run it again support is not set default no right so this looks more correct so pcount rmt and i2s are all things that not all of the chips have so it has to be target specific same with this cpu frequency and the coprocessor stuff so i think that is correctly being removed and put in here so we can see that like all the targets will have the same settings which is annoying but like you gotta be imperfect at some point it's just like oh it's really annoying and then for this s2 like this is the default hostname all of this byram stuff is default um so that's correct as well so i've done c3 s2 s3 and i think i've done esp32 as well so let's just do a let's do another board and see what happens let's do this s2 reverse t with t s2 reverse so we're going to clean it we're going to do the opt build and we're going to do update all so this this error happens like this file doesn't exist and that's because we haven't said what ps ram it is so in here we'll just do so these are like two new settings that we're adding the ps ram mode and frequency trying to be much more explicit about it and you can get an idea of what it's set at so 16 so that's two mags these are standard IO so in in current current circuit Python for these s2k kipigs we're ending up getting all of the default settings in these files that's annoying so it's at 40 40 megahertz blah blah blah so we're qio 40 megahertz um and now we'll run it again it should be able to oh i didn't save it save save do that again we should take a look at how it changed so we did it in update all mode but it didn't update the defaults it didn't update s2 it only deleted everything from the board's sdk config which is correct because the hostname is the same and all of these spy ram settings are the same so that is correct and i actually want to make another target uh so i don't have to run menu config and i think i maybe i'll just run through all the s2 boards and get them all up to date so is this update all sdk configs and i'm gonna do an update sdk config and then i'll just remove this lag so let's go down our list of boards we were doing s2s let's pick another s2 we did regular or we did reverse tft now let's do regular tft and i think we can do clean and update clean update or sdk config i think we can do that yeah so again it doesn't have the ps ram setting which i think is good i think it's i like having this mpconfig board.make be very explicit about those settings rather than this jumble jumbled mess and once again i think we would just expect it to delete everything so we've added that it's deleted everything these things haven't changed like this is reasonable it's got it doesn't have all that extra stuff in it okay so that's right let's go down the list tft back no ps ram this is weird why doesn't this have any other files in it it's only got sdk config maybe that's a problem with my branch maybe i like don't have the latest version of the code so i'm just gonna pull up github but maybe it's like lingering from a previous branch i had in this folder boards expressive boards there's definitely new boards that i don't have s2 yeah see i don't have i don't that board doesn't exist here i don't know where it's coming from i'm gonna skip over it so these are s3 boards haza 32 funhouse is s2 so let's do funhouse and no ps ram well this says it has ps ram oh there's the setting my paste buffer still listen to it so it's also configured to be at 40 there's nothing else special in here so we'll update that as well and it's deleted everything mag tag is an s2 do the same thing here and again like this 40 megahertz is probably is probably okay as 80 like we could double the the ram access speed and that's something i want to do with nine point out so that we can find problems with it so we're basically being like too safe for potentially safer than we need to be s3 metro s2 looks like it has it oh it's marked as flash that's not right any questions this is not super exciting stuff to watch i imagine me going through and updating this but i think i got the script the script looks to be working pretty well one of the tricks that i had with the script is that one way the setting the possible settings changes is by you basically include different kconfig files but there's there's you can use variables in the path name so you could include a target specific kconfig and kconfig live has a thing that you can ask like what does it reference so basically what is it depending what does it depend on and it the referenced thing doesn't include the variables that were used in the file name to import it which is sad and confusing and something i had to work around okay so we do got do have some questions so tithe asks how do you know what the correct option to pick for defaults for your s2 s2 kconfig default file are just copy an idf example or guess slash try and see basically my goal is to carry through the settings that we had from the previous version generally we use the defaults but there are a few places where we don't um like the the the things we're here seeing here about suppressing warning errors like that's a that's a four to five conversion thing that by default they want to warn you and and by default we don't want to see the warnings we'll go it's a warning that you're using like old apis and like we do want to use newer apis but we don't necessarily want to gate all of the idf5 updates on that so so for now we just turn the warnings off so generally i think my process is and what i've been doing is like i do one board with a specific target i run the update all version of the script that's that takes the existing settings converts them to idf5 via the idf machinery it gets back an sdkconfig file and then the script takes that sdkconfig file and like spits it back into the circuit pipe on the ones um so you do like one board per target of the update and now you do what i'm doing which is like for every board basically just like uh go go in and update the board's version of the sdkconfig based on the settings the global settings you've got from one board of a particular target beata says following along with my ears thank you but yeah it's kind of a pain so cutie pie again and it's running at 40 two mags a esp32 yeah so basically i'm trying not to change the settings david says yeah so you plan the speed optimization in circuit by then version nine yeah i my hope my goal is to be um bold in the settings that i do in this merge which means it might break some people so like for all of this boards that say 40 megahertz just bump it up to 80 and see which ones don't work um and if you know if there's really like reasons that that we want to backport it to eight two we could but um like i'm also being bold in uh disabling a lot of the cryptography modes uh that the tls library uses because it saves space um so we may find that certain things don't work as well uh in 9.0 as well so i just like i'm using 9.0 as an opportunity to like get less stability but be be more aggressive as a result so okay cutie pie is updated and it deleted everything again which is kind of what i'm going for so that's an s2 s3 c3 c3 this one's a regular one this board the artist sense rd is an s2 at 40 on the standard pins see they have a different host name so we should make sure that that stays there when we run it so let's see tyus says i'm feeling slow tonight i see you get the target specific defaults by running menu config using esp idf aka update board sdk config script so it actually runs like the idf's menu config and then the update board sdk config script runs after that so the menu config will produce like a an sdk config file that includes all of the settings and then the updater reads that file and spits it back out into the files that we actually check in okay so we load that file again and look it it disappeared that one setting which is bad it should have said like oh that's not a default setting let's leave it in that file and it didn't do that which is not not what it should do unfortunately um so basically what we could do is we could say like no that was wrong we discard it we're gonna want to run it again but let's take a quick glance into this debug output so we're looking for that's the the host name setting we can see that um the circuit python default was the same oh interesting so this is the problem is that this our circuit python default computation is including the board file which it shouldn't be doing because we want to put the the custom stuff from the board file back here we want to say that's not the default for circuit python so let's take a look at the script update sdk config so we have the cpk config defaults this is a new thing um or at least the way that this is working is new so um we're now using this like kconfig live so you um load kconfig path and then um so we don't include the board file so the board may have custom overrides so this is all new we're we're being a lot smarter because we're in this new version of the script because we're actually using kconfig live so this kconfig path is the thing that loads the metadata about what the options are and then this load config loads all this the settings from the the sdk config files um so now if we run it again our script will no longer use the board as part of the defaults so here we see the default is expressive but the setting is this and then it gets filed into the board file so if we look here now our sdk config includes so includes all the headers for like the the top level menu stuff down to the bottom and we can see that it did manage to leave what it should the rest of these are all defaults so they do go go away but but we're keeping the custom host name which is great so let's keep going i'm through more s2 boards so this at mega zero usp32 s2 and i could write a script for this but i'm like still catching problems and fixing stuff so this is eight eight megs ps ram so we need to make sure that we're it's still going 40 and it must be quad still so that's still probably right so let's look at our changes we added that and so this is interesting in the sdk config file it's still including this ps ram 64 um even though we should have a custom ps ram file that includes that so let's just take a quick peek at um what is in our sdk config ps ram eight megs is empty so that's not right um so let's do an all so now when we look it added this uh esp ps ram 64 this is a problem because the s2 i think this esp ps ram 64 setting is s2 specific which is really annoying so like if i ran the update all script with an s3 that doesn't have that setting it would disappear and break all the s2 settings um but i think this is what i want because i don't well all the other things don't have size and that's kind of why these spy ram settings are different is that they're in different orders because they're inconsistent the ps ram settings are per target but i don't want them to be for circuit by thon so it's just kind of annoying um and the local hostname still ended up there which is great the ps ram setting went away so that actually looks good too many more to go maybe what i should do is i'll just i can write a script to run uh run run me through all these be pi bit s2 i assume it's an s2 and it doesn't have its ram settings just fine 40 still we'll update that as well do i do update all i think i did i generally don't want to run update all because um it shouldn't need to but we'll double check it it shouldn't need to update the shared ones these actually look like s3 settings which is wrong as well like the the octal mode mode oct is an s3 thing i don't think it's an s2 thing i could be wrong rainboards neuron is a s3 sp32 we're just doing s2s right now crump space crump s2 default settings 40 okay so it's gonna have a custom thing again but you see how these like the stk convicts are getting cleaned up which is quite nice yeah so now it's just got the that's right on the list c3 s2 denny denny ap mini gotta run ham's lab see you next week thanks a lot hopefully i'll be less shiny when i have an ac in here hopefully it works out buying it used it's okay oh and it doesn't have ps ram three two is also an s2 but it has ps ram oh see this says it does have ps ram but it does not have a setting for it that's true for this is that true for the first one no all right any last questions before we wrap up here paste flash not ps ram oh thank you it did um did crash at something you were actually paying attention david i david i think you're paying attention more than i am at this point that's fast wi-fi so i should just get to the end s3 ink that's because i have to concentrate you have to concentrate more than me maybe you should be doing this dream to be fair it's it's partly the the heat i could see it too should just be oh no it's got a custom name that's correct but i understand the process of having to do and it's manually before writing the script to automate now you have to have test data to compare it to see if your automation script will work yeah i probably won't i may i may just do it manually but at least i'll do the dot mk files correctly because sometimes the the settings are mismatched between um sometimes like the flash settings are mismatch mismatch between sdk kimpig and the and the circuit python kimpig stuff so i think it it might be one of those tasks is just like turn on some music and do it sort of thing i like this cleanup though where we're deleting most of the stuff it's a sign of a good a good change and eight r2 but yeah i'm pretty sure most of these can run b we run at 80 megahertz i could write a script and just go over it that's probably what i should do fire engine my window is open so it's loud siren is on my end oh and they pulled up right outside where they're going by um these are all s3s h my dev kit i think is an s2 i actually have one of those that's why i know fault name 40 mags all right let's wrap up it's a little early but i'm hot and need a snack and there's no questions um all right let me just also switch cameras thank you all for joining me on box week um it's probably not the last box week let's be real uh my name is scott if you haven't didn't catch me at the beginning i go by tan newt online i work for adafruit on circuit python if you want to support me uh you can do that by supporting adafruit by going to adafruit.com purchasing uh lots of fun gadgets there for different projects you have in mind um if you don't know what to do or or don't know what you want to work on learn.adafruit.com has great great tutorials and will link you out to all of the products uh that you need to build something so if you need some more ideas check that out circuit python try it out circuit python.org uh it's an open source version of python designed to run on microcontrollers and be easy for beginners um so take a look at that if that is interesting uh to you i assume if you're watching it is um keep an eye out for circuit python 9 updates um idea 5 is not blocking at any alpha 9 releases but um dan is working on the 120 merge of micro python which circuit python is based on and that will change the npy format so we're not doing any alpha 9.0s until uh that is merged in and we've settled on an npy version for circuit python 9 um which i should be around next week to stream i think um if not i'll see a foamy guy wants to fill in for me as well um but yeah uh if you end up ordering boxes let me know i i did the write-up you can go to adafruit-playground.com and uh there's a a list of shared ones and i think it shows up on there um i also dropped it in the chats earlier um love i would love to know if anybody else is adopting that i think it's a i'm pretty pretty excited i'm i'm reasonably excited about it i think um otherwise i'm going to keep working on this idf update this sdk config update and uh have a great weekend everyone uh i have no cats to pet but uh yeah have a great time uh have a good weekend we'll see you on the discord which you can join by abafru.it