My name is Sam Watney. I'm the author of Malignan Self-Lover, Narcissism Revisited. Narcissists in positions of authority are more likely to take advantage of their patients, students, subordinates. Being in a position of authority secures the uninterrupted flow of narcissistic supply. Fed by the awe, fear, submission, subordination, admiration, adoration and obedience of his underlings, parish, students or patients, the narcissist thrives in such circumstances. The narcissist aspires to acquire authority by any means available to him. He may achieve this by making use of some outstanding traits or skills such as his intelligence, or he may achieve it through an asymmetry built into a relationship. The narcissistic medical doctor or mental health professional and his patients, the narcissistic guide, teacher or mentor and his students, the narcissistic leader, guru, fundit or psychic and his followers, fans and admirers, or the narcissistic business tycoon, boss or employer and his subordinates. These are all instances of such asymmetries in relationships. The rich, powerful, famous, more knowledgeable narcissists occupy a pathological narcissistic space. These types of interactions and relationships based on the unidirectional and unilateral flow of narcissistic supply, border on abuse. The narcissist, in pursuit of an ever increasing supply of an ever larger dose of adoration and an ever bigger fix of attention, gradually loses his moral constraints, such as he had. With time, it gets harder to obtain narcissistic supply. The sources of such supply are human. They become wary, tired, rebellious, bored, disgusted, repelled, or plainly amused by the narcissist's incessant dependence, his antiques, his childish craving for attention, his exaggerated or even paranoid fears which lead to obsessive-compulsive behaviors and so on. So to secure their continued collaboration in the procurement of his much needed supply, the narcissist might resort to emotional extortion, straight blackmail, abuse or misuse of his authority over them. The temptation to do so is universal. No doctor is immune to the charms of certain female patients. Nor are university professors asexual. What prevents them from immorally, cynically, callously and consistently abusing their position are ethical imperatives embedded in them through the process of socialization, through the faculty of empathy. They learn the difference between right and wrong, and having internalized this difference, they choose right when they face a moral dilemma. They empathize with other human beings, putting themselves in their shoes, and they refrain from doing unto others what they do not wish to be done to them. This is the normal way of the world. But in these two crucial points, the narcissist differs from other humans. The narcissist's socialization process, usually the product of problematic early relationships with primary objects such as parents, caregivers or role models. Well, the socialization process is often perturbed and results in social dysfunction. Narcissists are incapable of empathizing. Humans are there only to supply them with narcissistic supply. Those unfortunate people who do not comply with this overriding dictum must be made to alter their ways. And if even this fails, the narcissist loses interest in them altogether.  Hence the abrupt shifts from overvaluation, idealization of people, to devaluation. While bearing the gifts of narcissistic supply, the other is idealized by the narcissist. Narcissists shifts, however, to the opposite point. The valuation contempt disdain when narcissistic supply dries up or when he estimates that it is about to. Then, after a phase of devaluation, he discards, becomes indifferent and apathetic. As far as a narcissist is concerned, there is no moral dimension to abusing others, even dependence. They are only pragmatic dimensions. Narcissists ask himself, will I be punished for abusing, exploiting others? If punishment is not forthcoming, the narcissist feels free to do as he wishes. In this sense, vast majority of narcissists have psychopathic, anti-social traits. The narcissist is atavistically responsive to fear and lacks any in-depth understanding of what it is to be a human being. Trapped in his pathology, the narcissist resembles an alien on drugs, a junkie of narcissistic supply devoid of the kind of language which renders human emotions intelligible.


Rhaid i ddweud, mae'n fawr i'r gweithio'n ddysgu'n gwybwyng hwnnw, fel y byddai'r trofodol, a'r cydnod i'r ddefnyddio, maen nhw'n gwneud hynny fel y cyd-igwyr i'r phwladol. Mae'r hynny'n gweithio'r cyd-igwyr i'w ffryd. Ystod y byddai'r ffryddau gofdoira ar Brithn, fel y byddai'r ffryddau gofdoira ar Brithn, mae'n eitha fydda ar ôl. Mae'r 1st Goedwarra, y Calsa Jardd y British Isles, was formed in 1908 and it was opened in a residential property in Shepardsbush in 1913. It later moved in the 1960s to a former Salvation Army Hall only about a mile away where it has undergone several phases of redevelopment and you can see that building, the bottom centre picture is the current building of the Calsa Jardd of British Isles. So, prior to the 1960s and 70s there are only a handful of Goedwarras in Britain but migration, chiefly from Northern India and East Africa, has created a growing seat population. Seat communities initially gathered in houses or church halls before purchasing existing property which would gradually be made suitable for seat worship. So you can see some examples of the reuse of buildings in this slide so a couple of churches on the left, an industrial building on the top right and then a couple of purpose-built Goedwarras as well which have developed since the year 2000. So this story of development is familiar in general terms from other faiths and indeed from the previous history of the seat diaspora but less studied is a specific way in which Goedwarras are valued by those who use, manage and maintain them. As a result this PhD project focused on developing an increased understanding of Goedwarras and it commenced in October 2013 and was jointly supervised by the University of Leicester and Historic England. So in line with the aims of Historic England or English Heritage as it was then a narrative approach to this research was adopted whereby informal interviews have been undertaken with members of the Sangat or congregation at Goedwarras in Leicester, London, Birmingham, Bristol and elsewhere. The approach offered an alternative to the often perceived top-down assessment of heritage value and significance and aim to establish the everyday value of seat religious space and its continuing potential for evolution and adaptation into the 21st century. So semi-structured interviews were undertaken whilst walking around the Goedwarra which allowed the participants to freely recount stories related to their experience of the place. Whilst this research was national in scope 25 interviews were undertaken at 17 Goedwarras eight of which are in the city of Leicester so Leicester provided a local case study. Understanding how Goedwarras are meaningful was the focus of the research in the first instance allowing for the consideration of a range of values associated with their everyday use and then appropriate future recognition in the planning and heritage sectors. So discussion surrounding Sikhs in Britain up until this point of largely consisted of elements of wider debates regarding the development of a multicultural and multi-faith society. Accounts of the tenacity of Sikhs political activism and the tendency towards hard working values are often given as examples of a successful migrant community which has utilised Goedwarras for the needs of an expanding minority ethnic and religious group. There are now almost half a million Sikhs in Britain or 0.8% of the population according to the 2011 census. In some areas of the country this proportion is much higher with the highest Sikh density in regions of west London and the west midlands where Sikhs account for up to 10% of local populations. So although there is a long history of Sikh migration to Britain large scale migration occurred after the Second World War and partition of India in 1947 followed by the arrival of Sikhs from East Africa in the 1960s and 1970s prompted by the enforcement of Africanisation policies in states including Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania. Later migration has also occurred from Malaysia, Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Sikh diaspora and the development of Goedwarras has increased in line with this population growth. So you can see the current distribution of Goedwarras on the left. The research estimates that there are around 212 Goedwarras now in use about 200 of which are in England with other Goedwarras in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Cardiff and I think one in Derry. Largely these Goedwarras are in areas of Birmingham and the west midlands the cities of the east midlands and London and most do not share specific architectural characteristics huge diversity in the original purpose of Goedwarra buildings and in the design of those purpose built for use as a Goedwarra. Of the 212 in use in Britain reused property accounts for around three quarters of Goedwarras with 153 buildings originally designed for other purposes. 33 of these are in previously used religious properties largely Christian places of worship but also including synagogues and a Quaker meeting house. Others are resident in industrial or residential property civic buildings, pubs, schools and trade union halls. Seek identity is also diverse and is reflected in the independent management of Goedwarra nationally. Whilst some are affiliated to international spiritual organisations or religious practices many others exist in networks across the diaspora related to reform movements of the 19th and 20th centuries. Some also explicitly identify along cast lines which although dispelled in Sikhism are an ongoing presence distinguishing communities and migration histories. So in literal terms Goedwarra means gateway to the guru or house of the guru by which is chiefly meant to seek holy scripture the Guru Granth Saab. In 1708 this text was declared the everlasting and living guru by Guru Gobind Singh who was the last in a succession of ten human gurus. In each Goedwarra the Guru Granth Saab which you can see here on the left which is a throne or platform with a canopy within the prayer hall and it's placed above the level of the congregation who comes sit on the floor before it. The Guru Granth Saab is shown the utmost humility and respect and on entering a Goedwarra visitors remove their shoes, cover their hair wash their hands and sometimes feet and bow before it. Lange which is the preparation and consumption of blessed food and served by volunteers and in a statement of social equality it's consumed while seated on the floor of the Lange Hall. The focus on the Guru Granth Saab central to the role and spiritual character of the Goedwarra was consistently made clear with respondents stating that the Guru Granth Saab is the Goedwarra without it there is no Goedwarra then it is just a community hall the holy book is the pivot around which the whole Goedwarra operates. Alongside a recognition of such elements of the Goedwarra which they all share Goedwarras themselves were also related as equal to one another functioning in the same ways. Likewise in discussing the Lange respondents stated that at any temple anywhere in the world whether it's Canada, America, the UK, Kenya they've always got food 24-7 so as long as the temple is open there is food available. Often statements such as these related to the unifying functions of the Goedwarra were expressed alongside a comparison to the Golden Temple which is in Amritsar in India where one interview remarked that they feed 100,000 people every day and again it's all free no charge to anyone. You can see an image of the Golden Temple on the walls of the Guru Granth Saab Goedwarra in Bedford here. So the Golden Temple remains the preeminent Goedwarra in the Seed Consciousness and images of the complex are frequently present in Goedwarras in Britain. This complex itself is not explicitly emulated elsewhere the architectural style of it and guidance given to Seeds give no indication of a universally defined architectural style. Interestingly here on the right you can see images of newly built Goedwarras pinned up on the wall these are from the UK and act as inspiration in the design of a new facade in this particular community. Furthermore the dispelling of ego, greed and pride are sometimes related to the rejection of any embellished architectural form for Goedwarras. So then one kind of gets into grips with these values in the way that a Goedwarra is envisaged and used by communities it kind of raised the question then how we reconcile the religious social and communal values associated with Goedwarras with the understanding of them as a physical place. One way we can do this is to look at the principle of SEVA or selfless service in Sikhism which has many applications supporting bad gifts of money and materials or labour arranging social health and educational projects as well as the preparation of langa and it also has a significant impact on the fabric of a Goedwarra Members of the community may give money or materials towards maintenance or new construction Sikh architects, engineers and electricians may contribute voluntarily to the ongoing development and maintenance of the buildings. SEVA has also led to the development of a wide range of activities and services within Goedwarras including gyms, libraries and Punjabi schools. The spirit of SEVA also underscores the widespread creation of Sikh managed professionally run community services from secondary schools to pharmacies through committees based at Goedwarras. One of the largest Goedwarras in the country Guru Teg Bahadur and Heath Park Road in Leicester moved into its current home a former converted shoe warehouse in 1988. Larger than 7,000 square metres some felt at the time that it was too big for its intended purpose but members of the community went about stripping the interior of thousands of wooden racks. The work was carried out by volunteers and the wood was offered to anyone wishing to reclaim it and in exchange some left a contribution towards the cost of the project. So the industrial character of the exterior remains though with the addition of a porch at the rear entrance and the installation of double glazed stained glass windows. So there is no real desire in this building to actually kind of go on to build a new purpose built building. This building seems to serve the needs of the community well at the moment. At the Guru Nanak Nishkam Suwip Javar Goedwarra in Birmingham respondents too described how voluntary service is a big part of the seek faith. So you have to donate 10% of your time and your money and your skills to a good cause. They also explained that an important aspect of SEVA in relation to this building is that all of the renovation and building work was done by volunteers. So this building actually kind of gradually was developed from a series of terraced houses which were demolished one by one. So it kind of makes it quite difficult in some cases to understand what is kind of original fabric and what is new. So of course the community contribution to such development at Goedwarra across the country has often been necessary for financial reasons. But the ongoing willingness of communities continue to contribute labour and skills to development projects highlights the importance of participation in a religious and social sense as well. So narratives of equality and community engagement were also evident in some descriptions of the development and physical structures. In some cases these stories relate to the participation or generosity of non-seeks in the setting up of Goedwarras. For example the dome which you can see here in the centre of this picture the main dome of the Goedwarra. The interior of it is adorned with a mosaic decoration which was created by a Muslim crafts person who wanted to offer his skills. This particular story was told in numerous informal conversations with Sikhs at Goedwarras across the country. Not just at the site itself. In expressing the religious message of equality within Sikhism. So it's a kind of physical representation of those values. Interviews undertaken at Goedwarras with previous religious uses also consistently highlighted a specific appreciation of the earlier function of the building as a place of God and the continuation of that being the case. And despite the perceived suitability of the former use and the structure of religious buildings for use as a Goedwarra, structural alterations were also a commonplace. So in both the Liverpool Sikh Association Goedwarra which was once a Methodist chapel and the Singh Sabah Goedwarra in Southampton which was an Anglican church a mezzanine floor has been created which splits the buildings into primarily a langa hall on the ground floor and a newly created prayer hall on the upper floor. So the previous function of both buildings remains highly visible despite the removal of Christian symbols. At Singh Sabah Goedwarra you can see the church bell remains though it's strictly unused arches are visible on both floors which signify the holistic structure of the original interior and the original heavy wooden doors continue to welcome visitors to the building. And at the former altar mosaics were removed as part of the Covenants of Sale and replaced with plaster. Original features of a church school which is now Gorytek Bahadur Goedwarra in Nottingham also continue to be a feature of the great touristic property. The architect employed in the redevelopment of the building described the hammer beam roof which was hidden by a suspended Artex ceiling which he believes was installed as a hasty and cheaply done conversion in the late 1970s done by DIY and Goodwill. He said it had been forgotten about by the Goedwarra community who had no idea it was there until he surveyed the building. In a discussion of the alterations to the building a number of Sikh members of the Goedwarra described the joy that the redevelopment brings them. They say it's amazing the way it's antique you know people come a long, long way to come and look at our Goedwarra and when I asked if the community wished to make further changes to the exterior character of the building I don't think so because it's beautiful as it is and it's really nice. I mean why would you spoil something that's so nice and it's original and you don't get that anymore do you? Finally I think it's also important to stress that the aesthetic design of Goedwarras and the materials and techniques chosen in their development are significant. There is a desire to create traditional or authentic designs though what this means is not consistent across the country nor is it a definite desired end point for Sikh communities. At the Guru Singh Sabah in Southall which you can see here the building is glawded for its beautiful stained glass windows and visible demonstration of a Sikh presence and contribution to the UK. However it's also been criticised for being unfit for everyday purpose with a lack of sinks placed in convenient places and the distancing of management committee rooms from the serving congregation. Here and elsewhere participants have referred to mistakes in the design at which are perhaps less easily rectified in the multimillion pound developments of this kind. So just to conclude undertaking interviews at Goedwarras themselves helped to unlock narratives which assisted in the understanding of the ways in which social and religious practice and value is entwined with physical form. The consideration of Goedwarras as heritage places and current heritage policy statutory remits may not be suitable or appropriate in the recognition and potential protection of Goedwarras. However where on the one hand protecting the built fabric itself may not effectively recognise this value or perception of place it may be important for the visions and achievements of the Sikh community to be visible in the near and far future within the political climate of the UK. The research has also revealed that there is an appreciation of historic communal, social and religious values entwined in both purpose-built Goedwarras and those with previous uses. Though this may not be articulated in the language of significance and conservation which is espoused in heritage and planning sectors. Implications of this research include the necessity for new understandings of place and value and the creative consideration of how best actually to recognise significance by his heritage professionals and others involved in the study of the built environment. Finally there is undoubtedly an opportunity for greater engagement understanding and communication on all sides for all stakeholders. However implications of this research do not amount to enabling communities to learn about heritage significance or processes of management but rather to instigate new conceptions of place and value which may ultimately challenge current and past understandings of heritage management. We may not be aware of the positions that we hold as practitioners and researchers and the basis of our own understanding of place and value. Thank you.


Welcome to liquid margins the inside track hypothesis team members on social annotation. We're doing something a little different today this Friday, September 23 in the year 2022. First of all, we're doing this without my distinguished quality for any French who usually kicks things off and make sure the right buttons are pressed on the webinar and zoom and stuff like that I think I've managed to do that looks like close caption is going looks like recording is going looks like people have been able to get in so I think we're in a good place. But hats off to for any for for usually running liquid margins but she's on a much needed vacation. The other thing that we're doing really differently today is, we normally talk to practitioners of social annotation out there in the world at schools that we work with to hear their stories about how they use an hypothesis in the classroom and this liquid margins are sort of taking an internal look and having an internal conversation with our own colleagues. But one of the really cool things about hypothesis is that I think almost every employee at the company kind of blurs the line between being on the sort of vendor side of things, or the school side of things. Everybody that we're talking to today has a background and has worked at a college or high school or university. And I think we've talked about almost. I think actually everybody at in the success and sale and the success and support teams that hypothesis which is something I'm very proud of, we've hired a lot of former educators. And I think that's, that's been awesome for building out a really great team, but it also enables us to really speak authentically with the folks that we're working with and collaborate deeply. So I think that's one of some of those folks today. I also think it's important to, to see the people behind the technology, right. A lot of us use tools and we might forget that, you know, human beings built those tools. Just as sometimes the people, the human beings that are building tools forget there's human beings on the other side. So, these are the human beings of hypothesis today that we're going to be sharing and I'm, I'm excited to have that that conversation. Finally, I'm really excited to be able to showcase some of the awesome people that I get to work with at hypothesis I'm really thrilled about my teammates as part of what gives me at hypothesis. And it's not a bad advertisement for potential customers of hypothesis to be like, these are the awesome people get to work with. They have really interesting backgrounds and they're really interesting things to say. So, that's what we're here to do the inside track hypothesis team members on social annotation. My name is, I don't think I introduced myself so I'll reintroduce I'll introduce myself as I'm Jeremy deed vice president of education at hypothesis. I am a former educator in high school teacher. English grad student and instructor at the college level practitioner social annotation in the classroom before going to work for social annotation tool called genius and then coming to hypothesis so I share some of my journey here because it's as a hybrid track to those that are here, and I'll introduce them and then we'll jump into the conversation. So, I'm here with Christie to careless, who's a customer success manager at hypothesis maybe a month into the job or so something like that.  But she has worked at Rutgers, and she's also I believe taught high school history that right Christie. Okay, so Christie's here with us today and then there's Christie as who's a customer support engineer at hypothesis, just a couple weeks in on the job. And he comes to us from Northwestern where he was, where he was a librarian, and then Suzanne Miller, who is also a customer success manager is with us today. And she has worked in customer success with other companies but she also taught high school English. I have a sweet spot for high school teachers because I was one myself I think we have a few on staff and anytime I see that on a resume I'm like oh yeah we should definitely move that one along. And this one we moved along all the way to hiring her and she's with us today for this conversation so I'm going to try to set myself up and jump in to hear more about you guys. So going in this order. I'd love for each of you just to share a little bit about your career journey. I know none of you started in ed tech, and here we are I guess in ed tech we could question whether we're in a tech but I think I'm from some perspective role in ed tech on the industry side right now. None of you started there. How did you get here. Christie. Hi everyone thanks for joining. So okay, I'm going to try and make this a brief story. So I did start my career as a high school history teacher. And when I started, I taught at a title one school and I just felt like after my first year I wasn't really making the deep connections with my students that I wanted to be. So I spent that summer really trying to dive into ed tech on Twitter and I started a blog like I was like really into trying to find different tech tools to get my students more engaged with learning. And from there, I decided to do my master's degree in instructional technology. And that led me to transition into instructional design. And I was at Rutgers for about eight years as staff there. I was in the instructional design and technology office supporting faculty and teaching online and trying to better engage students that way so I still kind of saw this thread, going along in my career of, I just want to help people engage students whether it's my students whether it's, you know faculty at Rutgers Camden trying to engage their students. It was there that I also started teaching online. And I believe that maybe it was in 2018 that I had heard of hypothesis and started using it in my own courses at Rutgers Camden. So I was super pumped about how it went in my classes and when I saw that there was a customer success manager position here hypothesis I was like wow that's a cool opportunity because it became one of my favorite ed tech tools to support because I felt like it was so easy to get into my classes and my students, it was one of like the most successful tools that I was using my class. So, here I am. That's the, the short version of my story I guess. It's awesome. We'll get into other details. I will just say, I've been on a couple of workshops with Christie when she's presenting to a school, and it gave me goosebumps the first time when she sort of introduced herself and she's like, I used to be an instructional designer that works with hypothesis and now I'm working as customer success manager with you instructional designers and teachers that that are using hypothesis so that's awesome. I think you're next Chris. Hi everyone, thank you for being here with us. So I, before coming to hypothesis I worked as an academic librarian for about 10 years at different schools around the Midwest. And through that journey I worked in a variety of different aspects of the library reference instruction and collection development scholarly communications open education. And sort of the the main like thread that has stayed with me throughout my entire academic librarian career was focused around the use and promotion and support for open content. I, my first job as a librarian was focused on promoting open access publishing to faculty, educating people about copyright and different experimental ways to facilitate peer review and that's actually where I heard about hypothesis to begin with was from the scholarly publishing peer review side of things. I remember when I started at at the University of Iowa and like around 2013 there was kind of a lot of excitement around the idea of both open peer review and post publication peer review and hypothesis was one of the early tools available to sort of facilitate that sort of discussion around preprints or publications on on websites. And so I've always like known about hypothesis, but I think what kind of brought me out of libraries and into educational technology proper was my love for an interest in open source software so got really excited when I saw this support engineer position at hypothesis I thought it would be a really great way to learn more about the technical side of educational technology. I really love that the organization is committed to open standards and open source software. And it was a good opportunity for me to kind of leverage my experience working with and supporting educators in the library so so now I get to work with students at colleges and schools around the country and around the world, and I get to see a different side of sort of educational enterprise from my vantage point which is really interesting. So, that's kind of where where my background is and what brought me here. That's awesome Chris, I set to share one anecdote which is when we interviewed you for the job. I remember side side, side chatteling chatting with Dan the founder of hypothesis and we're like okay yeah this guy could definitely do the customer support engineer job but on top of that he just sort of so clearly shares a DNA with where hypothesis comes from, especially in terms of that commitment to openness and and code and and content. So, really glad you're here. All right Suzanne. How'd you get here. How did I get here. Well, I started my career as, as Jeremy mentioned teaching English teaching high school English, actually kind of book ended my, my 24 career, 24 year career in public education both in Florida and now here in North Carolina and so played a few other roles in between, but my, my last, my last few years were teaching high school English before I came to the other side of the table. Mainly as a customer success manager but mainly because I was a huge believer in engaging with digital content with my students having them think critically through what they were reading and so I found myself embracing multiple tools that did just that. And so this kind of answers that question that's probably going to come later about my commitment to hypothesis, but it very much aligns with that, you know, I guess philosophy that you know that digital tools ed tech and high 12 higher education that you want students and teachers taking more of an active part in the education not so much being passive in in that process and so hypothesis stands out in that area as well as the other tools that I've supported over the years. You can name that it's okay. You know, another great thing of course is that you came, you're part of the family because Michael our customer support engineer was working at actively learn when you were a customer back to me learning and recruited you to actively learn because he was such a great advocate of the for the tool and for the, not just the tool but the pedagogy surrounding a tool. And then he came here and then you followed him here a few years later and we're very, very happy for it. So I think we are with you guys, but this is the problem with sharing the questions beforehand that people start to cheat and start to answer the second question. Which is, I believe what Suzanne and Chris have done and Chris year through line for you as openness, right in terms of your career. My next question was what's the through line in that journey right I've switched careers like you guys have. But I feel like there's a consistency across teaching and working in technology for me. So this is was openness. You can elaborate if you want Suzanne's years was engagement would you say or active active learning, right, the through line for you and critical thinking in that learning and critical thinking that's great. And I think mine is probably engagement just I was always trying to get students engaged. And now I'm still trying to get students engaged and keep students engaged but you know from the trying to the tool side of it. Chris, did you get to talk a little bit about the through line of your career yet. Yeah, I definitely jumped ahead on that and I stole, I stole your engagement know because that is really what I was trying to do. And I was teaching high school and in supporting faculty and then teaching college classes as well as just figuring out way how ways to keep students engaged and make them to a best self of Suzanne active participants in the classroom. Yeah, and I think for me, there's also like one step further which I think you guys are saying to which is getting getting folks excited. I mean, I was a nerd, and throughout my academic career I loved learning. I got excited about it. And I think when I became an educator that was sort of one of the things to be engaged to be active but also just to be excited to be passionate about something that's a through line for me. I also think you guys to me have jumped ahead on this one, but let's go backwards a little bit and just see about, you know, with Suzanne first this time, when did you first come across the idea of social orientation doesn't have to be an hypothesis context but it could be hypothesis itself tell us a little bit about that origin story of first encountering this type of technology. I would say, as I was exploring, not through the digital arena but through just best practice in learning and education, obviously close reading became a huge thing. I was sort of midway through my career. And so I embraced a lot of close reading practices I kind of considered myself on the cutting edge of what those practices would be. And the idea that, you know, a digital tool could sort of simplify that. In my mind make it more efficient was something that I completely embraced when I discovered the first few tools that I used including actively learn with with social annotation so, you know, and I think it very much mirrored the, you know, the benefits in the use of social media and some other stuff and I think that that kind of dovetail nicely with my my classroom practice which was nice. Yeah, I'll just briefly share my I had a very similar story right I'd always been talking about annotation to students encourage annotation, you know, in a lot of formats. And I started to explore digital technologies and try to bring them into the classroom to be a hip teacher or whatever right. A lot of stuff I used a lot of stuff I saw colleagues using I was like, I don't know if this is really working. When I first started getting into juice and interested in using digital tools and classroom people using this platform called second life to sort of like a, you know, alternate world or something like that with people have avatars they're trying to teach composition, you know, through second life and I don't know, I don't know if I can get into this and then I saw social annotation tool and I was like, that makes sense. Right. That is a skill in practice that is not particularly new. So, you know, been around for a while I've been practicing it personally, encouraging my students to, but this is a new context, maybe makes it more efficient. It makes it more multimedia. I'm not a drawer or an illustrator right so bringing images into, you know, annotations like something can, you know, do do more in my annotations than I can in an analog context so yeah I'm very similar pathway to you. Chris, social annotation I know we were just talking the other day about you know social annotation and scholarly publishing. I don't know, you know, when you first came across this concept of interested to hear. Yeah, yeah so it first came. I first learned about it around sort of disrupting the double blind peer review process and kind of making it more of an open conversation trying to tie into other elements and like movements and open science and replication and open sharing of data trying to just open up the conversation a bit more in like a scholarly publishing context. But, you know, so that was early in my career, more recently at Northwestern. I was really involved in the design and launch of an open educational resources program. And so that brought me into a lot of conversations around how to sort of leverage these web publications these open publications with other sorts of learning tools and I remember. A couple years ago, I think I was like on the other side of like a presentation that Jeremy gave at Northwestern about demoing hypothesis and it was like, I was brought in that conversation because there's a lot of potential there for connecting our authors and OER users on campus with hypothesis and they're also kind of played in with sort of moved movement towards like flipped classrooms and asynchronous communication and obviously with the pandemic and online learning. It just seemed to make a lot of sense for people to start using that at Northwestern more recently. So, so yeah, it was kind of top of mind towards the later parts of my time at Northwestern, mostly from like an educational perspective rather than scholarly publishing. And I think I want to hear from Christine and maybe pause and try to connect some dots here between, you know, Chris's background is pretty different from Suzanne and Christie's right. Not a classroom educator with working at an academic institution thinking a lot about publishing. And this is of course always been part of the history of hypothesis as we've always had some interest in getting involved in scholarly publishing, and peer review and things but also this classroom interest so I'd like to circle back with everybody to talk about can we connect those two things but Christie you talked a little bit about your origin story with hypothesis but rehash a little bit for us how you first discovered social annotation. So I want to say, and I might be remembering wrong that maybe I did like Diego or delicious one of those social bookmarking tools also have annotation capabilities feel like I was exploring those. I wanted to even further than just engage my students more something that was has always been important to me is to have my students act as contributors to course content so I've never wanted to necessarily be the only like source of knowledge or the only source of authority in my classes and I feel like social annotation is a great opportunity for students to, you know, contribute either their knowledge from other courses their own life experiences or their own like research on the spot. So I kind of started with, I don't think I actually use like the social annotation features in whatever it was the Diego or delicious whenever the social bookmarking tools were, but even just like collecting websites together. And then when I did see hypothesis is like wait, I've seen something like this before. This could be a really easy way for us to kind of collaborate and create knowledge together as a class. That starts to help to make the connection right between me and Christie, you see a connection there between opening up scholarly production to be more horizontal with the sort of classroom horizontality of the centering the teacher that Christie's talking about. Did you say Chris or Chris. I said both, I think. Chris, do you see a kinship in terms of the scholarly production, you know, democratization scholarly production with the democratization of the classroom that Christie's talking about. Yeah, yeah, this is like I like I said a lot of the earlier criticisms of the double blind peer review process was that it's only kind of two voices feedback and kind of being the gatekeepers of this what gets published and what is actually considered. A valuable contribution to this course of whatever academic discipline we're talking about. And so the idea of open peer review and open sort of post publication peer review, facilitated by tools like an hypothesis would help bring in more voices that could be, you know, valuable, something that the two peer reviewers wouldn't have thought of, you know, there's a lot more ideas that could be fostered within that. And it all for you, Suzanne either in your, when you were teaching and thinking about democratizing your classroom or supporting student voice or the way that you saw actively learn kind of help democratize and raise student voice. A little different I think in high schools. But I, I mean, I will say throughout my entire career I moved more towards a student centered approach and giving my students more voice and choice. So, obviously, social annotation aligned beautifully with that goal that I had set for myself. And she also talked about visibility, we were riffing before the recording started, we were talking about forget exactly how you said, make, making thinking visible or something like that. Talk a little bit about the importance of thinking was it that reveal thinking yeah talks me about revealing thinking and then we can go back and think about that transparency right openness. transparency. These are some of the values at the core of hypothesis that we see starting to infiltrate scholar publishing practices as well as pedagogical practices in the classroom. So, revealing thinking. Yeah, so the idea of, again, moving more towards the formal to the informal assessments throughout my career so I found myself relying more on formative assessment techniques as I, you know, as I moved through my career the idea that students needed regular ongoing feedback, you know, in the moment. I always say that my students writing improved so much better through the tools I was using like actively at the time, because of that feedback that constant communication that was happening. Obviously not just my feedback, it was feedback from peers. So, you know, I all I can say is that it, it again gave them more of a voice, it allowed them to give each other feedback it allowed me to give feedback better. And it just like I keep coming back to the idea just made it all so much more efficient to me. I think I don't know if this was purposeful but you elegant, elegant, elegantly answered a question in the chat from many Fernandez around improving student writing through social annotation practices so you actually just touched on that I know if that was intentional, but Christie's also doing double duty here being on camera and answering the chat and responded to many, but I think that's what we're talking about many writers that student writing improves. I don't want to say almost naturally in the context of social annotation because the student is pre writing ahead of an assignment so there's some work that's going on before but also feedback that Suzanne is talking about peers being able to comment on that and of course being pushed on certain ideas, ask for clarity it's going to improve that writing, and then of course instructors there as well and Chris I think you were basically suggesting is that the ecosystem of scholarly knowledge production is going to benefit from this kind of transparency and more voices. Yeah, and it's happening in other elements of sort of scholarship. We're seeing it with an increase in reproducible research increase in funding for replication studies. It's all about bringing in more sort of idea of like making it more horizontal and top down in terms of the way that knowledge flows through communities. Chris anything to share about this idea of transparency and making reading visible as we talk about it from your teaching experience or supporting the tool. I think I put something in the chat about this but just from my own classes I found that it's easier for me to identify where student confusions are before they hit unit projects through the social annotations. And I have a ton of formative assessments in my class like every week students are handing in some kind of like reading reflection or like something like that but sometimes those aren't targeted towards, you know everything that the reading is hitting. So social annotation kind of gives the students a more open ended way to address the reading and really helps me hone in on, you know where is their interest where is their confusions. What do I need to address before you know we're moving on to projects and things like that. Thank you Kristi. Apologies guys my, my earbuds died. So I've had to relocate to a phone booth at my co-working space. That's the change of seat right here. Awesome. Well let's talk a little bit about how you guys, you know, first discovered this job opportunity to come work here and what really excited you most about when you saw that opportunity and you anyone after what were you excited about in terms of coming to hypothesis and start with you Kristi. I'll switch on this a little bit but let me chop this up for distribution at all seem more natural. I think that, okay. So, like I said I was at Rutgers and I was at Rutgers in 2018 when I started using hypothesis and I think at that point I connected with Jeremy back then to start to start using hypothesis at Rutgers. So I believe that Jeremy and I were connected on LinkedIn and possibly I saw the position that way so like maybe Jeremy shared it and I was just kind of scrolling along as we do. And you know happened upon the customer success manager position, and it really like I, it sounds almost like fake to me like how much I was like, oh, this is a tool that I actually like really love supporting as an instructional designer, you know we did a lot of feedback, like technical support as instructional designers. It was one of the easiest tools to support which is, you know, never a bad thing. And I just saw how it works with faculty and I know that I loved using it in my own courses and my students had really positive feedback about it. So when I saw that was just like, here's a great opportunity to, you know, work spreading a tool that has really positively impacted my own teaching, and that just seemed like a really cool opportunity it doesn't come along that often. So, that is what led me to apply. And it's again like it just sounds like how could I be that like corny about it but it's true. I bet when you read that job description you're like, yep, yep, can you that can do that can do that. I'm going to do it a different order this time Suzanne. I know you sort of heard about it through Michael, but tell me about what excited you about coming to hypothesis. I have to bear with me I'm trying to answer Sarah in the chat. I don't know, are we able to go off script a little bit to address Sarah. Of course she heads. Yeah. Before I was attentive to the users. Well, it just she was talking about bridging that gap between how I guess vocal her students were in annotating online and then bridging that to in class discussion. And what I was going to share is in the process of typing actually was the the idea that I always tried to incentivize my students with payoffs for doing high quality annotation. And so, oftentimes the play the payoffs were, we would have Socratic seminars debates in class. You know, over, obviously, important questions essential questions if you will. And so, you know, I think it had a lot to do with the text selection, obviously, showing lots of different opinions and perspectives. And so that's what students were writing or reading, and then telling them that they could use those to reference during those in class discussions that were a little more formalized, you know what I mean the idea of like a Socratic seminars a little more formal than just a small group discussion. So having you know having a class debate, you know where there were certain sides I used to always say that I wouldn't tell my students which side they were going to be on. So they had to be prepared for all of them. And so, I don't know that just to me. I saw a really deep connection to being prepared having those high quality annotations and using them for those in class, like, like I said sort of formal discussion opportunities. So I don't know if that answers Sarah, but I wanted to do that before she certainly was a valiant attempt I think she may have signed off. Make sure that we will connect with Sarah about those questions. Not particularly the topic of this episode. Yeah, lots of different programming and certainly lots of people in house that can speak to what do you do after the students have annotated. So somebody reached out to Sarah and continue that conversation and maybe we can have a look at margins episode about that. But I'll talk about how I came to hypothesis. Give us on track. Yeah, thanks. Yes. You, you, you mentioned you kind of gave the story of talking about Michael works in support. I've had a connection with him for the last, I would say five or six, maybe more years. And he's the first person that kind of encouraged me to take the leap into ed tech. And obviously we've stayed in touch. And that's how I sort of I found my way here to hypothesis. And the idea is that hypothesis, like I said, very much aligns with my educational philosophy about having or making, making it so students can engage and think critically through their reading and have a little more voice and choice. Yeah. It sort of was a perfect marriage of, you know, my past experience to today. Awesome. Chris we may have recovered, we may have covered this already.  Yeah, I can, I can elaborate a little bit more. I, I, you know, I worked as a librarian for 10 years and basically having moved around the library in different departments. Sort of the, there wasn't a lot of like, the only place to move. If I stayed in libraries was to go into like management and that wasn't really interested. I don't think I'm like a good people manager I just really wanted to like work on projects and learn more at the time I really want to instill do really want to just focus on this new sort of path focusing on technology. And so I thought that this would be the perfect role for getting sort of feeling like I'm at the start of a whole new learning path of, you know, technical support but also software development.  And, you know what really sealed the deal was was the, the organization itself, I think is kind of fascinating because as I was learning about open source software for the last three, three plus years. And that's a big question in the open source software world is how do you sustain an open source project. And I really, I really like that hypothesis has found sort of a business model that can be that can help sustain an open source product in the long run while also you know contributing back to the global open source community, and then contributing to the standards. So I really like the sort of commitment to openness, while also having sort of a business model that that can be sustained over the long run because having come from academia I know that it can be precarious to, you know, rely too much on grants or on charitable donations so I really liked the idea of sustaining open source through a sustainable business model. So that was also really interesting to me. It wasn't easy. It took a while to figure it out. All right, I want to get a sound bite in for posterity here I'm going to ask each of your questions off script, but I think you should be able to answer it. What is social annotation mean to you. I want to know employees of hypothesis what is social annotation meaning to mean to you starting with you Christine. Oh man I guess I go first. Okay, well I think I kind of already answered this. Social annotation to me is a collective way of constructing knowledge so we are all reading a text together but we all come from different places and we all have something different to contribute and have different perspectives and you know various ways to reflect on it so that is how I would define it. Christy as former librarian, engineer at hypothesis. What does it mean to you. I don't have the best if the answer to this but I like the idea of adding depth to text. I like the idea of like adding different layers, you know that social annotation can bring so you have like the sort of the source that you're having and then you have a conversation later on top of that, and then you have replies and then you have tags and it's just like, it just creates a different sort of depth, depth perception that wouldn't really exist. In any other context that I'm familiar with so I think that there's a lot of potential and opportunity there that is exciting. Ironically, I feel like you answered that question like an English teacher would. So I appreciate that that definitely resonates with me. Alright, Suzanne Miller, former high school English teacher current customer success manager at hypothesis what does social annotation mean to you. I feel like Christy and Chris kind of covered, covered my, my answer here but yeah, the idea that, you know, students that didn't typically engage in in in person discussion. The shy ones which I can definitely say I was when I was in school, it empowering them to feel like they can contribute and contribute thoughtfully. You know, to, to a text based discussion was really powerful for me. And I would say it probably is it still is to a certain extent. Yeah. I had a moment like that when I was teaching with genius in the classroom where I had a student that was not doing well, and not succeeding in the normal ways that I set up to evaluate my students. And when I started doing social annotation I was like, oh wow. But there was a lot more depth to the text. And it's not that I didn't know that there was more depth to her but I hadn't given her proper place to share it or showcase it, and suddenly I saw all this depth come out of her in in annotation that was pretty awesome. And it was a struggling student that turned it around, you know, in, in the margins of the text as it were. All right, we're going to conclude with one final question. What excites you about the future about education about social annotation about ed tech about hypothesis. What's most exciting to you about the future. Going to go in reverse order Suzanne. What are you most excited about in the future for the future. Well, I'm, as far as hypothesis, I obviously think that there's so much more to explore the idea of, you know, continuously evolving to sort of meet meet the needs of educators and students. You know, that's, that's huge for me, always feeling like you're on the cutting edge. And just in ed tech, I think something that excites me. A great deal is the idea of platforms and programs and tools like like hypothesis becoming better because of the feedback and input from educators. I love that. And I think you'll find that that hypothesis that feedback loop is pretty tight. We listen to our users students teachers administrators and really bring that feedback directly to our product and engineering teams and as a success manager and as a support engineer you're going to be a conduit for that so you're in a good place to hear that feedback. Chris, what is the future. Two things. It's really exciting to see a lot of new partners signing on to use hypothesis of the companies is growing and expanding its user base which is great but then there's also been a lot of interesting new integrations with things like JSTOR and vital source that's really exciting. So, you know, longer term, you know, I am familiar with some some movement in the web browser community to add native annotation capabilities sort of built into chromium which puts a lot of web browsers are based on now and so I think that there's a lot of potential to see this sort of that formal support in sort of the web browser standards and technologies so that I think that there's a lot of exciting potential there that that is forthcoming. Christie. Well I definitely echo everything that Suzanne and Chris said, because those are all super exciting things. I'm just excited to see more faculty reacts and learn how hypothesis can, you know, change their classroom without necessarily having to do a lot in the way they approach teaching they don't have to change too much in that you're giving a lot already. And here's a different way that we can do these readings together, and kind of trying to democratize that process a little bit more, and make it less of a, you know, isolating process and more of a collaborative process. And just, I've, you know, worked with a lot of faculty that it's really exciting when you know they do it for the first time and it just seems to work really well and you know they get excited about what the students are saying in the annotation so I'm just excited to keep working with people and seeing that light bulb go off. I had a light bulb go off as you guys are giving your answers so I'm going to answer my own question about what excites me about the future and it's a combination of y'all's backgrounds and your passions and your skills that you brought to the table here. It's the fact that like Suzanne and Christie I've had experiences in the classroom with this type of technology that have been incredibly empowering to me as an instructor and I've seen it be empowering for students democratizing, activating learners. And what Chris is tying into is kind of the bigger picture here, right the way that this technology is useful in other industries and other professions, and in everyday life on the web. And it's that connection between the work we do as English teachers Suzanne and his history teachers Christie that we're always passionate we want students to be thinking critically about text and thinking deeply and close reading and and collaborating and the idea that that could be a part of the classroom and be part of how people start to interact and behave and relate to each other in everyday life on the internet in other industries and professions but also just in how they engage with the information and writing that's online. This idea that it's a tool for teaching and learning that you can adopt for a classroom, but it's something that goes beyond the classroom, ultimately. I just feel like those of us that were drawn to education always wanted to believe or thought we were doing that work that was going to we're not training people to take tests, or write papers exactly. All of those things are means to a greater and it's supposed to help society. And one of the cool things is about hypothesis is that it's actually doing it's not as a, it's not a disposable tool, like many of the things one might use in education it's something that you can use beyond the classroom and it's, its skills are useful be on the classroom. So that's what excites me about the future that the work we're doing with students and teachers in the classroom is something that's ultimately going to transcend that and and power folks, everyday folks on the internet. So, thank you all so much for this morning's conversation or afternoon for those you guys on the East Coast, or evening for those in other flung places that might be tuning in. This has been a great conversation. I get to talk to these folks every day so it's going to keep going for me. If you're already working with hypothesis. As a partner you might have the opportunity to interact with Chris and Suzanne and Christie, if you're not yet working with hypothesis. What could be more compelling than hearing about what kind of awesome people we have on staff here that are working directly with teachers and students and administrators at schools. Let us know if you'd like to get a pilot started at your school and with that I will say, have a great rest of your Friday and a wonderful weekend and go forth and annotate.


There's a breakfast in plus CV Africa and many thanks for being with us and staying with us as well As always we have to Nicola will he join the conversation all things being equal We're hoping that he joins us But we like to set off with the papers as we have them in front of us We have the leadership I set off with the leadership newspaper this morning on the leadership newspaper Insecurity Northern governor's traditional rulers back creation of state leaders. I mean this is a conversation that's been ongoing for a very long time Pledge to support amendment of constitution to achieve goal agreed to have us two thousand Mega words of solar energy to support regions economic activities I have done well in insecurity infrastructure. That's what the president declared These are riders underneath the caption. I mean PDP crisis. Are you leaves for Europe hands over to? down my goon Okay us Commeds 200 million dollars to climate change fight in Nigeria again bank holds clash disbosiment of forks for PTA slash BTA and United Kingdom, please decline comment on a quermada's health status. That's really worrisome court grants DSS requests to detain Marmo for 60 days and Just before move away from the leadership rest fighters diesel price drops by 11 percent Anti-label laws aviation union issues for 10 day Automatism to federal government. These are the headlines on the leadership That's the most straight to this day. The next paper there on our list. We have Some interesting headlines on the front page of this day 2023 at Chico proposes 10 billion dollar economic stimulus fund for MSMEs unfolds blueprint right quite interesting the rider to that vows to privatize refineries then utilize 155 billion dollars That's your 1.55 billion dollars. I almost had to scream here 1.55 billion dollars to revitalize them Another writer to that. It says he will propose legislation to remove Electricity from exclusive list meets marking day southwest party leaders today Promises to help PDP when legacy some headlines are coming in That's the first one the big one on front page of of this day Buhari Hill CBN NDIC NICOM on others and financial system stability says government tackling insecurity inflation Mass immigration of talents and settles banking industry Goumel banking innovation must not be at expense of rural communities All right more from this day NNPC L set to sign 7,000 kilometer gas pipeline contract in Morocco, West African countries details on page eight of that paper The Senate rejects six trillion narrow tax import duties waivers and 2023 proposed budget to something to look at somebody who are those whose Duties import duties will be waived. It's it's interesting to see the Senate rejecting that Insist proposed to 12.4 3 trillion narrow deficit Unacceptable that's the highest ever in the history of the country moving from a country that used to have a You know a balanced budget to a fully deficit budget that is quite term quite unacceptable the Senate is insisting and Those are the headlines on front page offer this day Away from this day Let's take a look at the punch on the punch at equal core rubbish APC over Muslim Muslim ticket Economy that's boldly written on the page of the punch You have several riders says unemployment rose by 54 percent to 68 million Nigerians poor on the Buhari Muslim Muslim ticket dangers for troubled nation like Nigeria or coattails the APC and nothing can't reinstate Opposition to same-faith ticket. I have done. Well Buhari appraises himself. There's a ride as you find it Turnable healthy APC tells OB and decries defections That's another caption Angola Libya overtake Nigeria Include production. This is according to OPEC and Senate minister disagree over 12 trillionaire budget deficit Again vice president slot or core most qualified. Are you tells critics? My life on the threat over Queens Quinn Elizabeth's tweets. That's what professor drew me remember that tweets That's been put out as regards, you know, how she feels with Colonization and all that happened with the BF and war which according to how she described as a genocide and Strike motorist stranded as students block Legos Ibadon expressway Please get 431 petitions over corpse misconduct Ogun kingship torso claims three lives houses burnt and Senate begins all thefts probe in Niger Delta These are the headlines on the punch All right moving quickly over to the nation We have the big story there the lead headline Buhari We've done well with available resources. I think the paper left out the world extremely because that's what he said We've done extremely well He's coming as done extremely well. He went on to give a speech. He gave a speech in Amos State where he was hosted as part of his presidential visit He said that you know what we if you look at the time we've had the resources available to us We've done extremely well. It's what he said and quite a number of persons Decided to comment on that. Well, right us to that headline Ohane is a restates commitment restates commitment to Nigeria. Ebo leaders seek equity Makin day Bola Rumi clash over a Tiku Rao over Southwest. I Cannot see what is there think the paper needs to do better and Probably with the typography and the graphic design. I can't see but anyway It says Makin day Bola Rumi clash over a Tiku notes governor's Monarchs call for state police Interesting my plans to Nigerians by a Tiku and LCC as for amazing Lagos by the way in there That's what he came for. I mean we're tracking terror sponsors. We're tracking terror sponsors Hallelujah next one insecurity on though bands night clubbing message. Did you hear that? Why you don't do as bad night club? For for the weekend, you know, all just facing to cool off after after a long week's work nothing there for Your government okay, seven seven seven eight million narrow to Kate What are they getting? Flutter wave gets CBN switching processing permit Yeah, and took a room. I'm always a terror financier Financier DSS tells court to come I was a terror financier DSS tells court Let's see how this one goes Lady offers to donate kidney to acquire Madhu's daughter. I'm surprised the Nigerian men are not following what themselves to give her their kidney because I mean I'm sure this would be a good way to say I love you You know, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. She's very beautiful young woman the criminal store She says I need someone to help me. Can you donate your kidney? And it's a woman. What are the men doing? This is this is where men I've seen a lot of you know appeals and letters that's been put out I really don't know if they're very honest or this is a sincere thoughts But I think that Nigerians some Nigerians not all have actually climbed on that or probably stepped You know step forward and mostly She's very pretty damn cell No, but why would you think that because you know the context of that letter talks about a compassion and you know Well, yeah, I'm just saying this on lighter note though. It's on lighter note It's a private life. It's a different situation exactly. So that would should be done without I mean someone could step up and say in strike a deal. So I want a better life I know But in the context of all of that, you know following, you know, the laws and what have you because all of this is going to be In the United States or this you're not supposed to have any for it sort of expectation Even take it should be it should come out of a place of, you know, kindness. Yes, indeed. Yes That's a paper But humanities and I thought about it could I the first anything probably can I donate, you know to her Would you like to donate if there's compatibility and I see that I mean I can help save a life. Yeah It's scary But I've been inspired by people who have seen talk about how they gave a kidney to save a life It's an Nigerian doctor in the United States of America who was part of a documentary by DW You know, he they talked about Africans are doing well in in the United States of America with their business He's I think he's a doctor of real estate guy.  Yeah a businessman and and he gave his kidney you know, he gave his kidney and He cracked a joke in that documentary saying that when he had that the man will have to change it after some years He said I even you know giving it but I thought that was going to be for life But it was inspiring And some persons also have questions, you know, because a lot of people are saying She probably comes from a family, right? She should have relatives, you know, what have you nuclear family extended family? And so what happens why she making an appeal? But the doctors have actually advised that, you know for the sake of Being that it's heady. Detroit. It's possible that it's genetic And so it would be very risky to have family members what I extended a nuclear family Endulging and all of that and that's why the appeal has been put out looking at the circumstances, sir I don't you do you know if I have this one kid Do you know if it's only one that I have if I have only one I can't give the other one No, but so you have to kill you know, but it is it's a death situation. I mean Yes, yes Yeah, I have to go to the criminal disease is a sad situation looking at the predicament with the father because I mean We've all seen that the boy was who they took theirs also trying to play a fast one You know on them with the whole lamb and on the H person thing the case is still in court But I mean from what we see But what we see he what he's not who he says he is being minor and He's tried to capitalize on the situation doesn't want to come back to Nigeria. That's the bottom line He doesn't want to do that The young man said oh since they've seen that my kidneys are useful and they want to bring me back Let me look for a way to stay to stay here and that's it. That's what happened You know, so so when it's sad what the quiet matters are going through sad I mean people will stand up and say oh their politicians is a politician and gets what he's getting what he deserves only and all But you see and you can't just Group of work together. You can just generalize and say oh People are in different people are individual.  What do his constituents think about him? You understand and should a daughter die simply because the father by some twist of fate happens to be a politician Is it a daughter's fault that the father's politician? We need to separate our sentiments from these issues that are real and involve human life Because before and most of those who are celebrating online were obedience before anyone is actually a politician or You're anything that you are you're first of all human been and that's very important So with humans and in our interaction every other day Respected there should be compassion and everyone should be you know treat everyone with respect and compassion It could have happened to anyone it can be any other person and so empathy and sympathy That's what's required at this point in time But I believe that Nigerians would actually come you know to the rescue for the aquarium models Especially her daughter but away from that you have the leadership now very interesting coffee is the issue of state police And I think that we will seem to be going in circles now You have nothing governance and traditional rulers Who's saying hey worse in support of the creation of state police? So my question it takes me back, you know to the beginning or almost not the beginning But what happens to the 20 for 10 come fab because if you look at the 20 14 comfort It had given you know approval I mean it has the creation of an establishment and approval of state police and also you know What you call them border police and enforcement all of this So it had approved the creation of state police national border forces and coastal guards among orders for improved security across the nation Why do we have to still come back? You know to the table talking about let's back creation of state police when we already have a report and a document You know conference that report. Why has it not been implemented? There's another question. Do we need to do we still have to go back? You know in the circle to talk about creation of state police But I know that a lot of persons are not in support of the state police some people who are Not in support of the state police arguments have been put out that oh, you know the state police It's actually not good because number one, you know state governors would capitalize that we use, you know, this state apparatus For their own gains intimidate people and what have you to spin the argument, but I don't know, you know, how valid that is because Should we give it a try or not give it a try? There are a lot of consent about having you know state police across the entire That's a six states which will help the people police the state And now the persons are also saying that you if you look at state policing It would therefore mean that states governors or state government would have to pay these police officers And so does this states the states are there really really capable in terms of you know paying salaries and what have you But I think that if we're towing that line, what will be also necessarily important to say let's also have you know What is it called again resource control? It should be hand in hand results control and state police will go hand in hand If that's the argument so the states are you know Able to have the capacity to control the Security architecture in the various states, but I don't think that there's anything that does not have you know disadvantage However, there's always an advantage and disadvantage if you look at it But we need to begin to wear options and what was it that we're talking about creation and backing constitutional review When we already have a document why haven't we implemented this document or reports? However It's interesting. I think The the northern governments are looking at the current realities Of their situation, you know cut The unfolding and worsting deteriorating security situation in that part of the country If there'll be no surprises You know they're asking for this In parts of the north east you've already have what it calls civilian jtf, but no they're not barely armed And these are they've assisted the police, you know to fight Boko Haram You look at the fact that they have how to use um, you know Look limit weapons and all that support the police and the the army You look at the fact that in in parts of the north like Kaduna state, you know in order to protect themselves themselves against What they would describe as a marauding full enemy militia because it's between the the You know you have to cut kinds of full enemies the ones that they know and the ones that are They're seeing, you know Murawi guns and attacking communities and destroying Buildings burning and killing and also Cattle wrestling And if you remember the daily trust documentary and the BBC documentary to put out something important If you help us understand the situation, it's it's a tribal war that's going on in the northern part of the country right now so so these communities have had to The houses in particular have had to uh, arm their youth You know, I'm their youth with ak-47s here to protect themselves against The the full enemy now the the nomadic full enemy communities who are not part of those who've been doing the killing And attacks also now are targeted because they also still full enemy now they have to protect themselves It's become A cocktail of violence when you call it that so they do surprises there The government is saying let's do what we can do. Look at what happened in Benway State where Some of the term launched a local vigilante, you know outfit You know something like you have omote on the southwest and you have a buagu in the southeast Um, you know, he's learned something like that in the southeast you have a buagu Which is not active in all these states But it's in some states in the southwest you have omote could have recorded some successes, but also Some failures, you know, some of them stories we've had that people have been accidentally killed and all that by by omote crew so I think the fear by most who opposed this is that The state governors will use these uh, this power or the security for personal purposes You look at what's happening in some states where the governor, you know, because he has a political axe to grind Uh, we'll declare some of his opponents wanted We'll use the apparatus of state to shut down their businesses and to pick people up You know, we'll have nothing to do with with this political battle and we see governors using the police and the apparatus of State security for personal vendetta, you know So people are concerned and they would say if we have a officially have state policing in Nigeria will the governor's not do Worse, you know, but I think that some experts have also said I remember correctly that There are ways to go about this thing. There could be checks and balances There could be a Structures put in place to ensure that governors to not use the state police is for police for their personal vendetta and witch hunt and all that but I think it will happen even Even as it is now it's happening, you know In this governor's when they have physical security challenges in their state to tell you oh The federal government controls the police. Oh, we we don't have anything to do. There's nothing we can do You know the report to Abuja But when they have to go after their political enemies Then we'll notice and see that they can actually tell the police to do a b c d and e and they will do that It's interesting another story on the front page of the leadership happens to with Banks halting cash is bustment to forex, you know, it talks about pta and bta and this is a Quite unfortunate. How are Nigerians going to do? You know the businesses who are here are going to going to do because when you look at personal travel allowance You have to travel abroad if for holiday you want to go to Some other country for a summer or winter or spring or for whatever it is you want to go for I don't know why people leave the heat of Africa to go abroad for summer They don't want to want to come here But anyway, um, you want to travel send your child to school You know in some other part of the world And they need usd To be able to make the trip to go there and know that they can survive because they won't go with their Naira and go to new york city And go to chase Manhattan and say please take my Naira Probably in these countries they don't accept the Naira because of the value or they don't know what it is or Something so you want to go with us dollars and of course the banks won't allow them We draw more than in fact some banks have stopped altogether allowing Debits, you know card holders to make withdrawals in foreign countries And I remember how what I faced when I traveled abroad or my food terms have always been almost been stranded You know, I think in the UAE I was able to use my card But I led my lesson and I withdraw as much as I could You know, I withdraw as much as so but Nigerians are smart They'll find a way around this for the personal travel allowance You know because you need to have usd to go so you can survive you won't go with Naira You know what I'm saying you won't go with Naira and then change it there Even in in in some neighboring countries You can't even you can change the Naira But you have to really know your way around to change the Naira because the value is dropping everything You understand so so how our businesses and personal People going individuals going to manage how how those were sending their kids about manage I think this is where you see the rise. Okay. This is where you see the rise of cryptocurrency This is where you see the rise of cryptocurrency platforms You know, I don't mention it so that I was going through the instagram page of one young man who has a Crypto exchange. I mean I check him out from time to time and the guy's doing well He's boiling. He's rolling in cash You know, why wouldn't he really he'll make a lot of money because of this situation crypto is going to go I think if cancer taking Nigerians who surpassed the top countries in Adapting crypto currencies because what they do is they will take the money Go buy crypto start on their They are their blockchain account Get abroad and then sell the crypto to us and then they move on you understand So if the cbn is clamping down on crypto, you know accounts of crypto companies They're still going to make things difficult for the businesses as well I think crypto will be the way to go because you go to the bank You want to get the usd to make purchases to you know to to buy your goods to to important to country raw materials Whatever it is, you can't get how are you going to survive? Ultimately, ultimately we'll see this affecting the Nigerian community further negatively And you know that you know looking at it in a holistic manner is also worth discouraging all of this Sort of importation because usually that's you know, that's what a government would actually do But if if a government would like to encourage, you know or discourage local, I mean importation into the country then there should be In the country in itself There should be some other measures that have been put together to ensure that The options for instance if you say people should not import XYZ Foreign consumption of other products then we should have the capacity You know to begin to purchase some of this because all of that is also where to dissuade travels and what of you You know in the long run, but quickly as we cost this other one But you're right person in that the the reason they're the halting these investments is to want to see how they can Stabilize the value of the Naira Well, what time would tell you if it's going to you know stabilize the value of the Naira It's going to further the you know the value of the Naira or Depreciate the value sorry depreciate the value of the Naira Well, another one that I think that everyone should be I mean the Nigerian government and everybody should be concerned about is The fact that if if you look at the reports from that's on the punch by the way On the punch newspaper where you have Angola and Libia over taking Nigerian crude production. That's what OPEC is quoted to say and For an economy that's highly dependent on oil for her earnings then it calls for a lot of worry I mean consent was saying that highly all of our earnings were very dependent on it And if we have we have not been able to meet the quota Just recently I remember I think we're talking about that with Chris Cain and one or maybe Open the bonket area or one of them Well, we talked about that should we be excited that you know OPEC has actually given Has increased the quota for Nigeria It should be a good thing that your quota has been increased between a period of time for 2022 But have we been able to even meet the previous quota because right now we're producing, you know below 1 million. We're doing a hundred 972,000 barrels and that's Not very commendable. We have actually dwindled. We've gone down and what are the factors that are responsible for this I'm thinking that the government should be on top of the situation everyone Stakeholder should sit up because we can't continue like this. We're just going, you know below bar. How can you know country be producing 972,000 barrels per day as of August and you have this country like Libya and Angola You're having higher volume of crude bean You know, yeah messy because we're out of time very quickly, you know the the the the picture painted to me even is Uh to say now that I mean Libya they've been in a state of war You know, or let me say instability and internal crisis and turmoil for some years since the death of Conor and Muammar Gaddafi And It's not a stable country. In fact, it's almost a good thing that that's the case So so um for Libya to overtake Nigeria. I think it paints the the picture that we all should be aware of but Angola, I'm not surprised Angola has been number one in Africa for for years So I'm not surprised but the saddest part is that for me Libya a number two That the country is not able to fulfill its opaque quota that that is sad But then again, so say even if the country is able to sell all the Where is the money going to go to? But but the issue conversation for another time Look at how high Kudo went over the past few years and our high is straight because of the the russian-korean crisis You know, look at how high the prices have gone. I mean, this is where Nigeria should be catching up Let's move on, please I understand the feeling but that's the size of our conversation this morning on off the press We'll take a break now and when we return we'll be right here with a vast major conversation Aviation workers are threatening to embark and strike following a class that should be removed has been demanded by this workers listening with us