Welcome Church family to our Friday night moments with Pastor Marie and again Welcome to Pastor David and Marie. It's always good having you guys joining us. And how's your week been? It's been busy it's been busy a kind of a new busy. Yeah, I think it's busy in the sense of So many things that we have to do to keep ourselves. I guess In in some kind of order because I have little things here little things there and so We're just keeping busy in a different kind of way lately. So yeah, we've been busy. I'm preparing to go I have places. I'm gonna be going to minister. So part of it is my business busyness is Starting to look forward to and look towards going off to St. George, Utah in a couple weeks and doing a pastors conference pastors leaders conference in In the state of Washington in the end of July. So those things are on my mind right now And so you're keeping busy with regular church life Opening up the church once again getting ministries Flowing once again and all the meetings and everything that we have to We have to have in order to prepare So both of us are real busy lately Yeah, you know, there was a time when we all know this church There was a time when that was even scheduled or even on the calendar you going and doing different conferences and Leadership's training for the church to now see that opening back up is is it's a blessing But then again, it's it's one of those things where it keeps keeps you busy Yeah, it keeps you busy. I had my schedule my calendar From people don't know this but my calendar is actually actually filled out at the beginning of the year and so Out of the 12 months and very often almost every month I'm asked to go someplace and do something in this last year Especially we had loaded it with not just one event or one outside thing, but sometimes two events and a lot of traveling and I'd have been traveling Until the end of the year. I think the last trip we had scheduled was in in November And I was going to take December off kind of like, you know but with the the COVID virus Everything just stopped and so from one perspective, Marie and I were sharing with one another that that was actually a on in one way Actually good for me Because it slowed me down and stopped me from the activity and gave me more freedom to develop my own ministry because I had overbooked myself to be honest with you and so That's been a plus if you will in the midst of all of this. It's been a plus for me and for Marie I know even with both you guys's travel. I think I took a glance at your calendar one time and There was like a stretch from Tucson to Israel to Coming back and you guys were even hit the ground running even before you guys went to Israel How uh, how your calendar was really really really busy. Oh, yeah, all that I think it's the traveling That's the a lot of traveling out of state traveling. Yeah, we went to to Peru That's right. You know, we got home from Israel and within three weeks or so We were in Peru. I was supposed to be in Philadelphia. I was supposed to be in new york You know, so it's a lot of out of state traveling. I'd been asked to do something in florida And so a lot of out of state traveling busyness and so again, it's um It's been actually a blessing in disguise for us so that we're able to We were able to just focus our attention on our church and our ministry here and uh, it's opening up again now as you know and I'll be Doing doing a lot Again, we'll be going god willing to new york I've been asked to do and agreed to do as a A member of the calvary chapel council.  I thank god that I'm able to do ministry But it's not what people may think like you're gonna go and lay out and we don't do that Nobody wants to see us laying out. I promise you god Well, I think maybe it's a time that you may need some help going, you know and uh, all I get nervous about harpoon I was just thinking that I was We're on the same We're on the same page, right? Oh You know what the traveling and and all your experiences and travel both you guys Even in the in you did a lot of traveling even when you were Early on in the ministry, correct? Yeah, you guys done a lot of traveling So how would you speak to a couple? Maybe who's going into ministry or somebody who's been traveling a lot ministry how That can be dangerous in a marriage if there's not enough time With one another because was there a time pastor that you Was there a time when marie wasn't going with you? Was that difficult and challenging for a young marriage? yes, there was Excuse me. There were um in the first When we first began to travel when I first began to go out of From this church representing our ministry as the pastor of this church I I was I went for example to china. I went to the philippines. I went to to india so I was getting out of the country and going to to foreign lands that were not necessarily the safest places to go and That was a stretch and that was I think a stress For for us for me personally And i'm sure I can speak for marie for her also because we had small babies. I mean we had uh Children four children under the age of eight You know when I was starting to travel And uh, well, I was gone marie could share about this but when I was gone You know on one occasion my daughter ana Her arm was broken, you know, and they didn't want to tell me that they had to put a cast on her They didn't want to concern me for the welfare of my baby I was in india And going to the philippines and mama marie did not want me To be concerned about that. I know I was in china and going to the philippines And she didn't want me to be concerned about that And so there was there was stress there were there were things we went through I I I have to say that my stress was different Because marie was left home to take care of the family Something that that we together do and that she relies on me a lot as a father And so there were quite a few adjustments as a matter of fact john um That's one of the reasons why I stopped traveling for a while. I stopped going out and stopped doing things I did not want to leave my wife That long because I could be gone 16 days I I didn't like leaving my wife. I did not like leaving my children And I had to come to realize that some men are called to do that Some men have more of a mission's heart and personal missions ministry And so for me I I was impacted by something I read of of a of a minister of long ago who said What good is it that I have preached the gospel and seen thousands Come to faith in christ and my own children my own sons Are unsaved and so I read that I think it was billy sunday who said that And I read that and I I came to A belief that if I can't take my family with me Then i'm not going to go Or if if it's going to be demanding too much time from me Then i'm not going to go I I know guys who have more than Been more than willing to to give up their families give up their wife for what they call as the gospel preaching When in fact I think it it's and i'm just going to sound cruel even as I say this but And even judgmental but when in fact I've seen it's been more of their desire to be known and well, you know well known So they gave up their family not for the gospel So much as for Personal fame and the things that that come with that now I've seen that and so I made a decision that if if I can't take my wife with me And if I can't take my children on occasion With me Then maybe i'm not supposed to be the one because I realized That there are a lot of men Called by god who have a great message that's just as edifying and just as encouraging or more so than anything I've got to say So that's my whole mind started changing towards Where it was at one time which was opportunities and I'd say mama I say I have opportunity to go to And she's she would say whatever the lord lays on your heart and she's always been my support I never went without her support But I came to realize that my girl was was giving up On days that I'll never get back You know events that I'll never be part of And when I began to weigh that john Knowing that god has an army of men and some who are specifically called to do certain things I that's when I started realizing my My real call is to care for my wife and my my babies and Take care of our fellowship and that's what I did and you know the church had been growing and was blossoming and it was Blossoming we've been a mega church what they call a mega church Since 1989, you know, it's a long time to pass to 2000 plus people you know, and You know, that's that's kind of an unusual thing But it was growing and growing and growing and we had you know full services and you know multiple services with Quite a number of people But I said, you know what I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lose my family Um For something that god hasn't as I really said this is your call And and I knew I could do these things and should do it and I still do But not at the expense of of My family to the degree that my ambition gets in the way Of my being a dad and a pastor and a and a husband to to my wife And so if there's any Young pastor right now listening to this or even an older pastor Who may have questions related to this kind of subject? I would say You know ask god whether you're really called to do that or not because sometimes it's our ambition That we have and not a call and you need to know Whether it's a call because if it's a call Then then everything works better that way. My wife and I have peace our children understand it I'm able to communicate that call to my kids with a different kind of certainty and encouragement And and the price is paid that we're all willing to at least share in Versus me saying honey, I'm going to go off to china or I'm going to be going to the philippines or I've been given an opportunity to go I've been given opportunities to go around the world. And so um I just don't do that anymore. I just I if I couldn't take my kids Or if I couldn't take my wife It just caused me to pray more and more about whether it's me who's who should be going that's interesting because you know a lot of times and I I probably haven't seen this as much as you have is When you you can see ambition versus what a call looks like in in someone's life and You know an ambition can really interfere in a marriage When somebody is there's a quote that you've mentioned to me before about ambition I don't remember what it was. It's something about ambition Uh You're not memorizing all my words Even when I write them in red. Are you kidding me? I think the font was too small for me to see I think your sandwich is in the way. I was like the burrito was in the way The talk was from mond mond tuesday But you had mentioned something that uh ambition an ambition person can be bought Oh, yeah, let me try and remember. Yes. Yes You know, I was impressed with something.  I can pay off But the one who does what he does out of love Cannot be bought And that that's true. You know, it's absolutely true in ministry I I I have known I I have known And I don't say this to judge because it sounds like I am but I'm speaking in a ministry as a ministerial kind of way. That's what I'm saying And him who has ears to hear let him hear Because I have seen men who make friends with you Because you can help them get up that ladder And once they've become friends with you they go to the person next and then the next And then until they get to or try to achieve their goal of being something or whatever that may be I've seen that and they leave people behind and I've been used in that way more than once john Where somebody because I was on the radio because I was well known in certain circles And all of a sudden have people who want to be my friend want me to be on their board What you know, they want things from me and I and I was very naive in earlier days and I used to think They they're just nice guys. They like me, you know, and when in fact they They wanted what I could profit them and then once they met somebody that I introduced them to That had more cache than me then all said they're not around and this other person is being Sod after and I've seen that more than once. So yeah ambition can be bought off with a position With an opportunity to quote-unquote preach somewhere to meet a publisher or Get involved in a convention or a conference And I have helped people I have helped people who I trusted whom I thought Loved me I have helped them to get to know people Only to see them Kind of just float off into the horizon following their new love and Yeah, you can you can get kind of soured by that towards people It certainly sharpens your discernment It really does and so yeah So ambition is is this is a godly ambition and ambition for the lord And you can know that's godly because God is going to be honored and you're going to take the the lower seat with With joy like jesus taught us to do Or you're going to find your way in front always talking about how many people show up to see you How many people like you, you know putting your name in your ministry first so people know your name and not your church I've seen plenty of that and as far as i'm concerned, that's just not what god called us to so yeah ambition Can be paid off but when you do something for love You can't be and even in a marriage pastor you can see that The dangers when a marriage is in trouble and and that ambition is taken over for whatever it is a job title a position salary whatever it can be That really can blind somebody to how their marriage is in trouble because they've been bought out by that ambition and it can affect the marriage you know and so Even guarding my heart to make sure that and you've done really well in In uh pouring into me and be careful with my marriage because that's my first ministry, you know and so You know as you share with other pastors pastor. What are some of the things that? Uh That has a pastor that you have guarded yourself against There are and I think billy graham made this very famous. There are three basic Areas that a pastor every christian but a pastor Needs to be wise and to guard himself in Um one is pride You know a man's pride Can be his downfall If he begins to think that his words are more important than somebody else's words His testimony is greater Or his uh communication skill is or the size of his church Again, somebody who's always telling me how big his church is Is compensating for his lack of sense of who he is So you have to watch your pride You have to be careful. Well pride in ministry can also be pride in just your person It's just been expressed in your ministry And that i'm important Attitude you can't correct me. You don't know how how superior I really am having you looked at all of my achievements That is very easy to bring into a marriage So that your wife as a man your wife may turn to you and say baby Uh, you're changing. There's something going on in you and then you turn and say to her What do you know? You don't know my life. You don't know what I go through You don't know the opportunities I've experienced You know, who are you to correct me? You know, when everybody's listening to me fawning over my words asking me to speak somewhere And and and when I go to the office and and I look at one person I say you need to do this and they do it Then I come home and you what I ask you to do one thing for me So your pride can get in the way And and so pride will destroy pride in ministry pride also can destroy a family And then then there's that love of money You know that desire for money and and so in ministry if you're If you think that you are worth more than you're receiving Then the stress of thinking you're not appreciated and that has a way of tying in with your pride But the stress of thinking you're not appreciated and and not given enough That can bleed itself over into your marriage too Where your wife may say to you Honey, can we get a vacation and the first thing you say is I don't have the money for a vacation There's no way we can go somewhere. I don't have any money. How come you're always asking for and then you start having money problems You know, I'm not getting enough. I'm doing so much work Nobody appreciates me and that can just bleed right on over into your marriage And and then the third and and this has been the downfall of many a pastor Is when the women in the church begin to to treat you like you're some kind of superstar some celebrity some desirable man And they fall in love with with your message thinking that And you get it confused thinking that they are in love with me and sometimes they are confused sometimes they want to be They want to take the place of the wife and and so they'll come up after church and and they'll say You know, I just love hearing you speak and and when you open your heart It really speaks to my heart and and then at home your wife has not been showing you the attention that you'd like Because she's got like in our case, it would have been four small kids You know and so she's working hard. She's taking care of the home. She's caring for babies And then I've got some woman and this this has happened here in this church I've had some woman coming after me And if I didn't guard my heart if I didn't guard my home guard my you know, love my wife Love my children. There's been more than one woman that would have taken me from Marie and I don't say that Just to say it I say that because it's true And and Marie's aware. This is no secret between us. She's aware of it, you know And she has And she has guarded. She's guarded her marriage.  These are these are things that that that every one of us go through Every one of us and so when you begin to advance in ministry Uh and get well known You know, these are things you have to guard yourself against but in the home Those are things you should always be guarding against You know, you don't treat your wife like An object You don't act as if you're the king of the house You don't you you don't keep things from her You know financially you have to be aware of all of those things that it leads over because What you are in life is what you are in the pulpit You know, there's some guys who can go up in the pulpit and they they just speak a good game You know, but they've got a wife sitting there who's been ignored or abused children who Who have a dad who's different in that pulpit than in in the home and so I've been aware of that and you could speak to my children Anybody could and they could ask him is your dad different at home than he is in his pulpit and Every one of them would say no, he's the same man and that's that's what I sought I want to be the same man in the home as I am Here when I'm preaching a Sunday morning service a Wednesday night whenever I preach and I would I would say that I'm I don't change. I would say that I am the same person because All my ministry is is an outflow of who I am.   She knows me And and she loves me And because that's true If she corrects me I listen Now my wife is not someone who's always trying to do that because she knows better than to try and And argue me into a position simply because I'm a man. I'm a human being And and sinful and I will not hear it If it comes in the wrong way because I my defense is like anybody else's will go up and I'll say What are you talking about just be straight and I can get upset So maria has learned over the years and she knows how to speak to me And she knows how to bring a word to me that is important important here And and I can say this before the lord and she knows this I I know she knows this I listen to her I will listen to her because I may not agree at first because she has a different perspective And I have to weigh it through and I have to start Thinking it through like how's that work? And why do you see that? And and I might sit down and say look at I don't agree with you at all But Why are you saying that what do you see? And she'll say this is when I say and she always says it with such Kindness and meekness that it might my defenses don't go up and I'll and I'll go You're probably right. You're probably right. Let me look at this. I'll think about it And then I do because that's the one thing she knows about me I will think about what you're saying. I I don't blow her off Right. It's this if somebody loves you and and took it upon themselves to take the chance of upsetting you I have to respect that You know faithful are the wounds of a friend You know and when you have a friend and like I have in my girl here Uh, I listen to her because if there's anything my wife has that I don't have it's goodness This is a good person. I'm not a good person. I'm a I'm a man who has been a sinner who's still learning what good is But I have a wife who's good. She's she's good. You know this john. You've known her for many years. She's a good woman I respect her and because I respect her I listen to her and if a husband doesn't listen to his wife, why'd you marry her? Why I mean why why are you married? You know, I'm not saying get a divorce I'm saying you better start listening if she's a good woman and if a wife's listening right now If you're a good woman, you know, I think your husband ought to listen to you I think your husband ought to Because that's the two two became one You're filling in the gaps of that person You know and you you fill in the gaps of her That's how it works with marie and me and because the only thing marie and I have ever known together That has been the longest lasting thing in our relationship Before I was her pastor. I was the guy who taught the bible study I was the bible guy, you know, not not the best teacher god knows that I mean i'm 24 years old or something What do I know? I'm just learning. I'm not knowing how to communicate yet. I'm just learning But she sat there patiently under me and and and listened to me Literally sitting right here next to me. I would sit in a Chair similar to what you're sitting there and marie would sit literally right here For years. She would sit right here right there Yeah, I liked them they're comfortable and just can't get up from them anymore You know pastor in with that as well You've always mentioned to me and that if you want to see the condition of someone's marriage Just talk to the wife or yeah, she just needs to be there when I'm talking to the husband And you would you would get a good sense How is that pastor? How does that work? There are some things that you learn through experience. I can never really teach people to have eyes to see Um And my mom the way my mom trained me as a little boy Which is all my life and it's gone on for all of my life From the time I was little as my mom would teach me to watch people when we speak to them And she said just keep your eye on them and watch them their faces Will give away and and it's true There's some people that you can't read some people but those of whom I can't read I don't trust Because I because I know that they're I know they're hiding something just by the fact they're not responding and they're staying like this so that person already I've already Zeroed in on this person's hiding something for me Something's going to come up later on and you learn these things, you know My mama would point this out. My mama used to look at me and if I were talking to you and say Marie just like this right now and if We were talking, you know My mom would look at and I'd be here and mamas were marias and I'm talking to you My mom would talk To you and she'd have and I'd be looking at you And then if you started doing if you started responding in a certain way My mom would actually bait you with something She'd say something to you to watch how you'd respond and I I learned that from her and then she'd turn to me and she go And then then she'd not like this and she'd make make her head like this. She'd go But I knew what she was doing the other person didn't because she'd wait until they were looking the other way But she would do that. She would look at me and she'd go Like that. So I learned from the time I was less than four five To read people So I would watch them my I watch them And to that's just what I do. I think there's a discernment in it now. It's a spiritual thing now So, yeah, if I'm talking to a husband and a wife, their body language tells me so much in the conversation I watch them. There are things that you've you've done counseling for a long time john Tell me what happens when you're with a kid and if you move your hand by his face kind of quick sometimes Can you see that move?  I'll do that when I'm sorry and thinks yeah, yeah You're so patient. You don't have a temper. You see like You'll see the what they always do Even the guy will if you watch them very closely and you were taught this probably in your counseling techniques Watch their faces when you speak you can see them nodding in agreement or going you can see that and sometimes it's Inperceptible to the untrained eye, but in counseling they teach you to watch their face because they'll You'll see it and that's that non-verbal stuff you learn that well again I've been doing what I do For a long time and the times I've been deceived Are the times that I have refused to believe what I'm seeing and there have been times When my wife more than once has said to me I don't think you should trust that person When I have trusted them to my own hurt And again, she has her discernment because to the to the pure all things are pure And with Marie she's got such a pure heart She can pick up things that that I might be making excuse for And she'll say And she does it in a nice way by the way She doesn't she I have to say it even in the way she she says things. I have to say this It's true. She'll just go like that honey. I I don't know, you know, and I know that she saw something. What do you see? What do you see? And then she doesn't even want to say it She has the ambition. Yeah, and you do see that sometimes Marie, right? Oh yes ambition selfishness No respect for the wife Not that the wife doesn't respect the husband as well, but I've seen an awful lot in difference um You look at the children and you can you look at the children and They don't have any Hope it sounds things are peace. It's peace that they miss when the parents are at each other And you see that you can tell when a parent and when they're They're these poor little children are left with no peace and um No joy in the fat in the home When there's a husband and wife who can't get along as believers and it's it really is a disgrace because as believers We are to put our Spouses first in the sense. I am you know, I'm I love my husband um and I My heart is to please him and a wife is ought to ought to want to please her husband and him he ought to want to protect her to protect her my husband will protect me As a as a man, of course and um But oftentimes it's it's more selfishness that's involved in in the home They're battling one another the husband and the wife rather than seeing what they could do together as believers And how they can work with their children and and and love one another and and not being different There's so much selfishness in the world. It's it's it's crazy and um We have a god who laid his life down for us And we need to lay our lives down for one another And truly as for my husband and and he for me and I know he would And um, I'm just I just see that there's just a lack of of So much in the world today is stressed people are stressed And um and women and women and and men are not Uh If they have problems with one another they're they're they're they're not going to be intimate with one another or maybe Maybe one will be used one for another. I don't know but but they're they won't have that intimacy that they need to have as well So, you know, that's important. I when you're saying that mario is just thinking about There can be times in a marriage that I I've seen in even in counseling where uh Instead of understanding the unity and the teamwork and the oneness that The gift that the the the spouse provides To make at least myself complete Instead of seeing it as a competition or seeing it as selfishness as you mentioned There's such a beauty and unity in the marriage. They're so When the wife's able to speak even as the holy spirit speaks and speaks wisdom in our lives Sometimes our role our wives play that role In terms of they speak that wisdom into our lives and that there's so much unity and love Versus dissension and chaos and anger and selfishness. It's just so refreshing when there's that unity You know, when when my wife comes around you guys, I tell her Hey, make sure that we pretend that we're happy because pasher david's gonna He's gonna see right through us. So make sure you're happy and hold my hand and just joking but uh But instead of having that dissension and that disunity it's so refreshing to have that To have that unity with one another to see that they're that there's truly a gift in our marriages Versus being so blinded in our marriages Because of selfishness of ambition That we don't really see our wives or Husbands for that matter in the light that christ wants us to see them You know, you know, if you don't like your wife, if you don't like your husband, what's the point? Right, you know We we made a decision to to marry Marie had options Marie Marie could have married a better man I have no doubt in my mind because she's a good woman And a good woman has a tendency of drawing a good man You know and and me I couldn't have I couldn't have gotten anything better You know and but I'm honest about that because I've told her this I've said, you know, baby, you could have had Someone so much better than me, but she chose to to love me and that humbles me You know, that humbles me. It makes me realize that that out of all of the uh All of the the guys in the world, you know, she wanted me and so that was just my imagination Out of all of the fellas in the world she belonged to you well There's truth to that line Because And I've told her this when we first married and all I mean john you got a picture of Marie was Just graduated from college, you know, she's got a degree. She's a hard worker She's very diligent at what she does. She's a good person You know, she she's a beautiful woman She's she's got everything that I would want and for her to say I'm willing to take this adventure with you to to have nothing You know, I was in Europe. I went to Europe in 75 when I was 24 Yeah, and uh, well, I was in Europe. She's got mad at me, but I'll tell you why in a minute But when I was in Europe and all uh, I wrote her a note A letter, you know on occasion I wrote her just to keep her interested And uh, I wrote her and I told her Marie I've spent all my money because I had saved In the army I had saved money up and then for a year I had saved money So a friend of mine Nikki and I could go together and we backpacked Europe for three months And so I wrote her and I said Marie We're not going to be going on any dates. I you know when when I come home, I've spent Pretty much all of my savings And I'll never forget. She said I don't need to go out on dates. I just Anything with you is going to be fine with me. Now. That's the woman I married You know, I married her shortly after now I'll tell you why she was mad at me because I got married to her shortly after getting back from Europe And she said we could have gone on a honeymoon You went with Nikki I had to pay her way, you know I'm so sad to see all these people fighting with one another and bickering and like I said before just Instead of showing that they could have a good marriage to their children their children's not gonna All they're going to remember is that my mom and dad were always at odds with one another And that's really a sad thing to pass on because it will be passed on Most most assuredly on to their the children and Anyway, in ministry there are there are kids who will not follow god because of what their parents were like They don't want anything to do with god. They'll say if this is the god they worship I want nothing to do with them. We've seen we've seen that more than once They don't go to church. They want nothing to do with serving the lord They think the bible is is it's not worth reading You know because they watched where that father and that mother Didn't love christ and love one another and so again, we've been aware of that We've been aware that marie and I um Not to say that we've been even good parents. I can say marie's a great mom me I I I don't know that i've been a good father. I've tried my kids know that But I can I can say this I can say that The only thing that matters to me. I said this just this last week People may not believe it's serious. I'm serious when I say this the the thing that matters is they serve god That's what matters to me. That really does and they know that about their father and over the years as I've grown older and marie and I together have Grown older. We've never changed. We've never veered the course. You've never changed it in any way never compromised that I've never given them the impression that it's not worth doing and And I talked to my kids about ministry a lot A lot it's it's part of our life together And I I share with them about Things that the lord and that's been our life and we do it with our grandbabies when given opportunity so I I think that Marriage in and of itself and speaking of marriage and service marriage and ministry You know, my first call is to be faithful to god, but I'm also called to be faithful to my family faithful to my family And I had a dream many years ago that was so real. I thought it was And in my dream, I had committed adultery And it was a dream in my dream. I had committed adultery. I say that three times. It's a dream Because people are hearing he committed adultery but I In my dream committed adultery and I had to tell my wife in Then I had to tell my children who were young. They were small And then I saw myself speaking to the church And watching the faces of the people watching her face as it The the pain that I saw in her that was so real And to see the look of my baby's eyes because my boys, you know, my kids They worship their dad. They love me.   I woke up With a chill. I woke up with it I I had never had such a vivid dream in my life And I don't believe I've ever had one like that since I took it as something from the lord. I did I took it as something god was saying This is what will happen When you have to tell your wife when you have to tell your children and when you have to tell your church This is what you would destroy. I saw it I I I didn't have an inclination You know, I I don't have that. Thank you. Jesus. I just don't you know when it comes to To to loving one woman my dad was that way and he gave that to me I and and and I would have been this way I had I never even gotten saved Because that was the model I had my father loved my mom till the day he died and I would have done the same I know I would have I I would not have been an adulterer. I was a one woman man before I got saved It's only more so now because I have reasons to be that I didn't have before so I I don't understand People and I don't mean that in the I'm so good and you're so bad way It's just I was not one Whoever had to formulate reasons to love a woman reasons to stay together Who I love God I want to be in the ministry Therefore I should that that isn't me had I not been saved and had I not been in the ministry That was a value that I was given by a father Who was very and your daddy was the same way that that was a value that We share faithfulness to the end faithfulness of the end and so I I I don't know not everybody has that john not everybody does I don't know why I would have gotten married to a woman that I would have contemplated divorcing Why would I marry somebody then I'm not going to stay with why would I waste my time and my money my life pouring into somebody as an experiment I just am not that guy. No, it was an all or nothing all of all it's all full commitment To the end. That's it. I once you're in you're in And and that's not a negative. It can sound negative. No, that's my mindset I'm that way with this church. I'm that way with relationships I'm just that way and marie's the same way marie's the same way. There's david and nobody else You know david dies. It's nobody else. There's nobody else and if marie goes on to be with jesus There's nobody else. I already had what I wanted out. They'll never be anybody else That's me. That's us That is us Yep, and that's why the church is safe That's why it is And that's a qualification of ministry a lover of one woman That's what we are and that's christianity That's christianity You know till death do us part. She's wanted to kill me but So far we haven't parted She wants to part my head with the Never maybe uh, maybe a pastor as we wrap this up And marie what what are some practical ways then as As we are christian marriages to safeguard our marriages I can only tell you what we've done and I guess it's practical Uh, we have independent relationships with jesus She does not rely on my faith And I do not rely on hers We influence one another We encourage one another But like I told her when we first got married and it's been true since then and all the way to now I said to her and you may remember I said marie. I can't live for jesus for you I can't have faith for you. You have to have your own faith All I can do is provoke it encourage it and try not to ruin it so Guard your walk with god have an independent walk with jesus christ What has made our minister my marriage good our marriage good and nice I speak for us. I know it has I can say this Put in the lord first Having your time with jesus um And loving each other the way jesus said to he said the husbands were to Love the wives he said and to use his model that he laid down his life For his his sheep, you know to wash them with the water of the words, you know to cherish and And nourish her that's I've I've had to learn to do that As a young married guy trying to become the leader in the home I I had the wrong idea of what it was to be a man, you know I brought that in from the world And not from my dad by the way I I brought it in from the world I thought well, you know just be hard don't show emotion You know marie can tell you that what you see now Isn't because i'm just an old man, you know has gotten tender in his years That doesn't happen naturally you actually become meaner in in the years if you're not softened by the spirit No, what happened is I on a personal level I I just don't want to make her crying. I just don't want her to be hurt by me That's what made me love her I'm gonna cherish her and nourish her. I'm gonna protect her I'm gonna be there for her If nobody in the world will stand up for her, I will And if nobody cared about her, I will and that's true And she knows that Her her heart safely trusts in me The mind safely trusts in her so what has made us our faith in christ our service to god Our our keeping him in the forefront of everything and all relationships and everything that we we basically do Our home is uh is is is a place where jesus is still lord Not just in the sanctuary here, but in my bedroom every room of the house He's the lord and we have over time Learned that he's the lord of these things too You know, he's the lord of everything and so that's I can't tell people do these 12 things or 15 things there are books written that you can Find people's suggestions, but everybody being different. I'm not one who can do that I'm just not good at that people think that all that's your specialty It isn't you know, my specialty is the exegetical bible studies.  She is Everything to me that I need I want nothing else. I have no desire for anyone else You know, I want her happy and if I can make her happy You know in life I'll do whatever it takes and I I spoil her, you know, because she deserves it. She's putting up with me. She's giving up a whole lot She puts up with me, you know And why wouldn't I spoil her but the blessing about my girl is she's not a materialist She doesn't need material garbage. What she needs is this That's what she needs, you know, and that's what I need So I think I picture one day. We're just going to be, you know, much older now God willing we are and we're going to be hobbling down the street holding hands And people are going to be saying isn't that sweet, but we're going to know we're just helping each other not fall And also Marie has the eye For jewelry and shopping. So when I go to When we go to Israel and I want to get something for my wife I do Marie, we help me find something for Livy and yeah, you're pretty right on And she'll leave and teach Livy how to make salsa You know what what's really given our marriage has been a blessing in our marriage is that my husband puts me first I I try and put him first too. I know we had kids and they get in the way sometimes But it's true putting each other first and Respecting one another respect is a big thing in a marriage If a woman's not fully respected then Or or a man isn't respected by a woman it it it can destroy it will eventually probably destroy the whole their whole foundation And I think it's so important is respecting and loving each other because from respect you can love And encourage one another and good things and the good things of life and Rather than putting your husband down I've seen people put their husbands down and it's embarrassing for me to hear that but so much more for for for the man to hear him be belittled by a woman and So I I've I learned my mother and David's parents respected one another my parents respected one another And I'm thankful that they gave us that foundation Of respect because oftentimes in this day and age they are Many many couples are not doing that And they want to go elsewhere to look for love thinking it's going to be better and it's not Yeah, it's it's not and the children see their parents living this way hurting each other And these children are devastated It's like a life. It's a scar that's In their life for their entire life You know, it's been said and I think it's I think it's true Because you see it in Ephesians 5, you know where Where paul says that the wives You know are to respect their husband, you know husbands love your wives But he doesn't say wife Love your husband, which I I find that interesting. You don't find in the new testament a command by paul or any of the writers To a woman to love for her husband Now I've had people say well, wait a minute book of titus You know the older women are to teach the younger women to love their husbands. You know how to It's it's an older woman is a mentor to the younger to teach them how to be a lover how to be a homemaker How to be that it's it's no command for the older women to Teach the women to love but how to love You know because the men are commanded to love husbands love your wives. That's a command. Why well one in in the greek In the Gentile population It wasn't necessary to love this woman. It wasn't a necessary requirement because the greeks had Greeks had wives to bear their legitimate children And they had lovers to give them pleasure And yet now you've got these Gentiles coming into the church And paul has to teach them and he has to say husbands Love your wives as christ also loved the church and gave himself for it What's he saying? Well, jesus said greater love has no man than this than a man laid down his life For his friends and who's your best friend if it isn't your wife? And so what we need to do is we need to to Exercise the things we see in scripture, but the wife the wife is simply told I think three times in Ephesians 5 The last portion of it. I think it's three times that the wife is is commanded to show respect to her husband You know and sarah in first peter he's used as As an example of a woman who showed him respect and calling him even calling him a lord And she had a godly fear which is a reverence and respect for abram. You know what i'm saying and so What maria's saying is a hundred percent practically Practical because she couldn't tell me. Oh, baby. I love you. I love you I love you But if she speaks poorly about me in front of somebody if she mocks me Speaks down to me.  I tell you I love you all the time.  Oh really Well, you're supposed to treat me the way christ commanded you to not according to your standards Of what you think and when am I going to be that man? You're never going to find your task done because you're going to constantly work on me until I die So either you let him do the work Or you get in the way of the work But you've got to learn to to show me the respect that I should have now I as a husband should be worthy of respect There's no doubt about that But if my wife is going to is going to convince me that as a man that I'm the person she cares for It's the way she treats me. It's the respect she has And and and again, you know, people may get tired of hearing this but But it's true My wife respects me But I want to be respected. I want her to So I've made up my mind. There's not going to be a man on the face of the planet Chuck Smith my pastor included That she's going to respect more than me I made up my mind that out of all the people She will respect me and you know what she does And that's that's just the work of the spirit as a determination on my part And I think that's what a lot of any man who lets his wife speak to him that way Needs to sit down with the wife and say baby, let's deal with this If you're angry at me, let's deal with it But there's got to be ways that we can communicate that don't demean And if I'm demeaning you show me where tell me how I'm listening The baby when you speak to me because you and I have seen more than once Where we've seen someone say oh, he's or he you know, and we see that it makes me uncomfortable Isn't it you know, I think you don't you don't you don't speak to him that way. Ah, he understands. He's okay I And I say no No, no, he doesn't feel like he's valued at all And what you're doing is gonna and we've seen him divorce You've seen it You know, you gotta love one another You know, it's so a woman a woman is to respect her husband and and the man lays down his life for her That's interesting. You point that out But in Titus also And in Timothy where it talks it excuse me Ephesians or doesn't instruct the wife It it instructs the wife to respect But we're the ones that as a man to love our wives as Christ loved the church Everything else will flow from there, right? So yeah, well you guys, thank you so much that I think this will actually this was a good conversation I appreciate your wisdom and your practical Wisdom and insightful wisdom to our marriages. It's needed, especially in a time It's today Or we've allowed so many different things to get in the way of our marriages and and even the dangers in ministry where Our wives can be neglected and uh, and so thank you guys I I did you want to close saying something to the church? As we normally as we normally do well, you know what there are some some there are some chairs here That are asking you to sit in them That's great We miss you and uh, I know that I know that many are concerned We are too. We're doing the best that we can to um to make this a very safe place and and um, if you're not coming simply because you're You're lazy, then let me let me encourage you to come If you're not coming because of your age and health requirements We completely understand and support you in that But if it's simply because you have gotten used to sitting in front of the tv with a cup of coffee And uh, you're remote, you know, it's probably not the best reason not to be in a church service And so we miss you. We love you like to have you with us and I hope I see you on sunday Thank you church. God bless you. We'll see you on sunday


So, the first two presentations were to do with giving a general introduction to these issues. We are now going to go into specifics how exactly we can address these sensitivity issues in academic communication. We are going to look at best practices and also worst practices. So, we are going to look at why, what and how. We have discussed a little bit about gender and diversity issues. So, we will start with gender then we will go to other diversity issues, specifically on ethnicity, age and disability, we will start with gender. The kind of exercises that I mentioned earlier on the assignments, those will help us to sensitize ourselves about these issues. So, it does not matter whether we are men or women, many of us are not aware of the importance of the gender in communication, how it can affect other people, how it can affect men, women, boys, girls in the classroom. So, first thing is to prepare ourselves and say that yes, this is an example and I have to address it is important. We try to find out what is the difference between these three. So, this is a book for example about Guide to Gender Aware Post Disaster Needs Assessment. So, based on what I told you earlier, can you write down what is the difference between these three? What you think are the difference between these three? I do not want you to write very long essays. You have said, can you tell us what is? Gender means problem related to gender. Gender neutral means gender equality. Gender awareness means creating awareness among people about gender disparity. What I want to mention, while this is not wrong, this is correct, we are talking about gender sensitive, gender neutral and gender aware with reference to communication styles. So, how do we understand these three? So, gender sensitive is the treatment of women in workplaces and gender neutral is considering the equality of women in workplaces and gender awareness related to that, the existence of women and their rights to be considered in the society. So, we can see already that there is so much diversity about how to look at these issues. Can you go back? Sir, in my view gender awareness must come first. Only when we are aware, we will be gender sensitive and gender neutral, gender fairness are equal in my view. Can you pass it on here and then we will go there. From what I have understood up to the presentation, gender sensitive is when none of the genders are underrepresented and gender neutral is, it means the use of pair pronouns is a or a common pronoun there and gender aware is when the correct gender is, you know the correct gender and you use that instead of just vaguely using deers or like in an application, could be a female also. Thank you very much. Gender sensitive means using the words which are based on gender or religion. Gender neutral which is a way of communicating in unbiased way. Gender aware is knowing the consequences of using biased communication. Sir, I want to, I don't want to give any explanation on that. Okay. But I want to have a clarification. Okay. Now you said about in communication we need be gender sensitive, gender neutral and gender awareness. But I want to know how to deal with the transgender. Yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah. So that's the third gender and transgender is also becoming an important issue now. So thus far, all the problems relating to making our language more sensitive has dealt with dealing with men and women. But this is also an important issue. So as of now, we have very few protocols with dealing with third gender or transgender. Okay. So some solutions will come to that. So as I was saying, all of you are correct in different ways. But I want to talk about these in a very specific way. That is, while communicating scientific knowledge, while communicating our research, while communicating what we have to teach, sensitive or fair refers to the fact that we are aware that there are men, women, transgender, third gender and so on and making sure we don't use an exclusive term like mankind or men or he to refer to all of them. Gender neutral is when it is not important to focus on the differences. So there are some cases where we want to ensure that we refer to all of them. There are some cases where it is not important to us, whether we are subjects that we are talking about our men or women. You are doing a study of fatigue and tiredness in the workplace, maybe in the airplane among men and male and female workers. So you are interested in fatigue and tiredness. You are not interested in separating out the findings by men and women. So when you are not interested in those differences, then you look at, you use general neutral terms. I'll give you examples. When we are talking about third gender, transgender and so on, again in such cases also we either do not want to mention their gender at all or we want to refer to them in terms of their own preferred gender. If you don't know, it's preferable to use gender neutral terms, avoid reference to any gender. Gender aware is, that's the reason I gave this example here. So there are some cases where we know that there are differences between men and women which can be physiological, which can be psychological, which can be social and we have to incorporate that into our research. So I want to set up post disaster relief and recovery mechanisms. And if I know that women's needs are different from men, then I need to have different strategies and policies. So in that case, I am gender aware. So this is an example actually from an IDRC, IDRC is International Development Research Center. It's one of the biggest funding agencies for research in the world. And they will insist that your language, your research proposal address these issues otherwise they will not even look at your proposal. So if for example you say, my technology is going to benefit 300,000 people. They will ask you how many of these are men, how many of women, how many are children. Because if you're not sure, it indicates you have not done your work properly. You may end up with developing a solution which benefits only men and not women. So there is a practical impact of this. Or sometimes we are not interested in gender aware or gender sensitive. So some people will make this first statement. Marie Curie is a great woman scientist. Nobody ever says Albert Einstein was a great man scientist, isn't it? So this is an example where you are needlessly drawing attention to the gender. If you are doing research among great women scientists, then you can mention the gender. Marie Curie was a great scientist. So if gender is not important, don't bring it in. So this is an example of stereotyping that we know most scientists are men. It just happens that Marie Curie is an exception, so we want to draw attention to our gender. That's how it appears. So it's an effect of stereotyping in our own minds. So the stereotyping is something we should avoid in our communication. So here what it indicates is that most scientists are men, very few scientists are women. Therefore it is necessary for me to point out. But most women do many things, not only scientists do many things. And most women are not only doing cooking, they are doing a great many things also. So these kinds of feminized nouns, like when we talk about an actor, we are talking about the profession. So unless you want to bring attention to the gender, you don't have to say actress. Just you can just say actor to refer to both men and women or chair women, sports women, business women and so on. No need to point to their gender unless it's necessary. So when you needlessly bring in the gender, that's an example of stereotyping. Or these are also examples of stereotyping. Or further examples here. So these could be sentences when we for example organize conferences and are sending out. So research scientists often transport will be provided for delegates and there are 30 women, I say 40 women. Who are also delegates or participants who may have come with their spouses. So you can, there are words available. So one of the things we want to say is that these kinds of terminologies have come into usage not because of lack of alternatives. There are alternatives but we don't use them because for a long time women were very less present in these kinds of situations. Writing these communication messages written over and so on. Or this looks like a very interesting scientific study. Research scientists often neglect their wives and children. So somebody wrote an article called, now even your mom can program.  And with Arduino you can do it, otherwise they cannot do it. Even though some of the biggest CEOs of large software companies in the world including Yahoo are women. HPE and Compaq and all of them are women. So there was an outcry against this and subsequently this author gave an apology because there is, it indicates a kind of prejudice towards mothers. That's what we are saying about it. Normally from the name we cannot differentiate whether it is a lady or a man or a woman. And when we are writing a letter, like for example in India also, like Dr. Kamal is the name in both the things. Or in foreign countries we never understood whether it is a lady or a man. So how we can address it because we need that for the addressing. So that's why we have given you these options. If you know then you can, as one of you mentioned here, if you know you can actually say dear sir or madam. If you don't know you can say dear sir or madam. That's the difference between gender neutral and gender sensitive and gender aware. So depending on your knowledge you can use one of these options. Or you can just say sir slash madam if you don't know. You can use different kind of options. So that goes back to what you were just asking. One has to become aware when to use them, when not to use them, when to avoid the use of gender. So you can use he or him if you know the gender. If you don't know to assume that that person is always a male that is being unfair. That is being stereotypical. So when you use only he or only she also. Both men and women that is referred to as sexist pronoun or sexist noun. When we use words like mankind, man, men and so on. These are examples of sexist use of language or stereotyping. These are some of the solutions that we can use. We can use pronounced pairs. He or she, she, he and so on. So you can also use plural pronouns. They for example. Instructions to a group of participants like you. So at this job every participant has to submit his evaluation form. Which is wrong because there are both men and women. I can say every participant has to submit his or her evaluation form. I can always say all participants have to submit their evaluation form. So avoid mentioning gender altogether. That is an example of neutrality. Whose gender you know. Then you can specify. I am doing this among female pilots, among male subjects and so on. Or sometimes you can just replace first person like I or an article. So at the end of this module each participant should submit a response sheet. Saying should submit his response sheet or her response sheet. Or at the end when I am submitting a proposal to a funding agency. At the, I can say the researcher has submitted his CV along with this proposal. Or I can avoid gender and say I have appended my CV along with this proposal. There are various ways in which you can avoid these things altogether these problems. Various kinds of alternatives that are available. There is a UNESCO manual that has been created which we will share with you. Which gives hundreds of many studies also do now. So these on the left side you have this common usages. Which are no longer considered to be acceptable. On the right side which you can use in your communication workplace communication. Formal, informal communication, written oral and so on. I will give you examples, published articles. Where give examples of sensitive and insensitive language. So here you have a sentence from an article that I have taken. Lead acid battery models developed by chemistry experts are not expressed in terms of electrical networks. That would help an electrical engineer to explain, explore his know-how. So this article assumes that all electrical engineers are men. So that is not acceptable. You can use any of those solutions that I gave you earlier. Instead of referring to electrical engineer as his. You should assume that can be male, female, third gender, transgender. This is another example. Mankind is now able to design materials. So men in this in IIT Bombay working on. So it need only men here. So it just. And we do have words like human, humanity, humankind and so on. This one I was telling you earlier about. Use of which can have serious consequences for the use of our knowledge. Third example here. It's about effects of ketan serine and haloperidol on pre-pulse inhibition of the acoustic startle, eye blink response and in man. Suppose I want to use this research. And I want to find out the response and effect on both men and women. Now I'm a busy person. Of course a doctor wants to use this. Doctors are very busy. They want to find out only from the title whether this applies only to men or to men and women. So you are yourself losing out on more people reading your study if you do not use sensitive language here. So if this refers to both men and women, then you mention it because we know the physiology of men and women is not exactly the same. To be different. So mention. I'll say response in human beings. Humans. Again another example here where exclusive use of masculine nouns is used to refer to both men. To all human beings. Again these are examples of how not to use the language. These are from older articles as you can see. These days most of these journals have revised their guidelines and they will not accept these titles anymore. So man machine interface, man's survival, yeast and man. You can see. These are all from famous journals. On the other hand these are from more recent journals. Some of them have changed their guidelines earlier. Some of them more recently. So you can see in this article it says education technology and the professional in Brazil. He's a her formation. So the educational professional like all of us can be both men and women. Can be a third gender. Or you can just say educational technology and professionals in Brazil. Their formation. If you want to include third gender and other people also. So instead of manpower you can use human resources. Manpower is a term that's to be avoided. This is an article from the American Journal of Distance Education. One sentence is like this. They have used a pronoun pair. Hishi. This is from social psychology quarterly. Reaction to a child's mistakes are affected by his her looks. That's how we are supposed to say. Or you can see this one. So this author is very careful in stating that the DNA damage is studied both among men and women. So somebody who is interested in using this research only in women or only in men can read this. I know exactly what this article is about. It's not vague, it's not ambiguous, it's crystal clear. You should try to replace the pronoun's length is her. Yes. Once, yes you can do that also. Yes sir. You can do that, yes. One should know the, one should know what is one's responsibility. Rather than saying his or her. Correct. You can do that. Thank you sir. So there are many different solutions. So that is the beauty of this. That there are actually so many different ways of addressing this problem and yet we continue to make the same mistakes. So there are so many different ways in which you can address these kinds of problems. Make the language in fact clearer. So you can see it's not simply about avoiding bias. It's also what make the language clear. So saying, saying from media presentations would actually hit the spur also. So usually some people say there's nothing wrong because this is what we've been doing for centuries. What is wrong with using mankind and so on. This is the response to that. Okay. So the idea is that in communication we want to feel everybody feel included. Not to exclude anybody. That's why we are doing this. That increases the effectiveness of our communication. So these are a large number of examples of how to avoid gendered nouns and then bring in gender neutral nouns to substitute. And you can probably make these lists by yourself and give them to your, you can identify. I'll just come to you. You can probably identify in your specific subjects that you're teaching what kind of words are commonly used and what kind of substitutes can you find for them. And then pass it on to your students to use in their assignments, projects, papers and so on. Yes. In the earlier example, there was one sentence from the journal, you know. And I believe if we can still stick to the older method by writing in passive voices. In that case also we can avoid using he or she. Yes. If I had time, I would have talked about that. You know, in general, we are supposed to avoid use of passive voice because use of passive voice is more convoluted. It doesn't make the language clearer. But in the larger presentation which I give here and in other places, we say that in the interests of gender fairness, you can use passive voice. You can use passive voice in attached. Yeah. So you avoid mentioning any person. So instead of saying he, she's, I have attached. You can just say later has been attached. Most of the word processing software, you automatically recognizes passive voice and underlines it in red and says, please consider converting it into active voice. So in general, we are supposed to use passive voice very sparingly. But in the interest of being gender fair, you can use sometimes. Sir, see what you are giving now is substituting the word. Yes. It is a very temporary solution, I think. Actual solution is we need to change the mentality of the society. Correct. What we talked about the stereotypes. Correct. That is something what we identify these words. Correct. But actually we know the mentality. Yes. That we need to change. Then I think these words will not make much difference. We, that's completely accepted. What we are saying is society takes a lot of time to change. Those problems we should not import into our communication. So what can we do is to avoid those stereotypes and biases from coming into our communication while at the same time struggling to remove those stereotypes from society. So what we are saying is as teachers we have a role. If we can change our communication, in the long run people will overcome those stereotypes. Because earlier generations did not do it, it is taking more time. Whereas if we can do it in our classrooms, those stereotypes will disappear much faster. Is it right to use active voices or passive voices in technical communication? Active. Active voice. Active is what we are supposed to use most of the time. Some people feel that it is better to use impersonal passive voice to focus on the action rather than the doer of action. What do you feel about this sir? So this depends on which discipline you are from. So recently I submitted an article, this was on disasters, where I was asked to use more passive voice. So it depends. So there are certain kinds of publishers who would like you to use more active, certain kinds of publishers, journals who would like you to use passive. So it is better to find out. So these days most associations, bodies, journals also give you guidelines. They have to find out. And there is also a preferred style that has evolved over a period of time in every subject. So and since history is dealing with the past most often they tend to use more of passive voice. So it depends. So one golden rule we want to say here is that there is no standard rule. It is always important to find out what is the preferred style even then that will become more clear in the next presentation. It is always important for us. So sensitivity means finding out what is acceptable and then using it, not assuming that what you say is correct. There is a very, some of sometimes in searching alternative terms especially for new terms, in searching for words which are gender neutral, gender fair and so on you can end up with very awkward terms. Uncrued aerial vehicle. The American society of mechanical engineers, it can be very awkward and generally we say technical communication must be accurate but it may be elegant as far as possible. So this is not exactly an elegant term but this one is. Instead of saying unmanned aerial vehicle you can say robotic aircraft or nowadays you call them drones. These are just more examples. Again I am not going to go into all of them in detail. Just to show that there are a lot of alternative terms that can be used to avoid these kind of sexist terms which are no longer considered to be acceptable which are considered to be stereotypes. So let us do some exercises. So we are saying gender neutral language is dashed and free of something inclusive and free of stereotypes and biases. Women are vastly dashed in STEM jobs and among that is one of the reasons why we are talking about this. If they were more better represented some of these communication problems may not have a much. So they are underrepresented. Terms that specify a particular sex can unnecessarily perpetuate certain stereotypes. It is the same term that we use there. Be aware of the gender specific words you use, their meanings and communication effects. What is the effect on communication rules? So these are just examples of how you can design online assessment. So there are two things that you have to consider when you design these quizzes. One, to sensitize the students or participants about the broader issues which are these. Or you can give quizzes on actual terms and words which are the correct ones. So combination of both would work well in training students. I am calling this home assignment which you can use later but let us see if we can do it here. How much do you know about how men and women communicate? So there are a lot of psychological studies which talk about differences in communication. So nonverbal messages carry more weight than verbal messages. So I would like to ask only the men in this audience to respond. Women, I will come to you. The men, how many of you think this is true? No, I don't want to go into depending now. That is a classic academic response to all the questions. It depends. Yes or no? True or false? True. How many of you think it is false? Only one. And women, how many of you think this is true? First sentence? Okay, almost all women. Nonverbal messages carry more weight than verbal messages. That is instead of speaking, I give a message through a gesture. It could be nodding my head. It could be shrugging my shoulders. It could be through eyes, expression, all of those kind of things. As well as walking and walking. In spite of that, most of the men here said it is true. So visual is more than verbal. Sorry, visual is more effective than verbal, we are saying. Sir, nonverbal is 55 percent. Number? 55 percent. Nonverbal is 55. Nonverbal is 55. On what basis do you say that? I have referred to the book. You have referred to the book, that's very good. 55 percent. 38 percent is your vocal. 55 percent is visual. And verbal is your 7 percent. Now, what just came out in this classroom is very interesting. And it probably shows that the men here are more sensitive. Because in general studies show that men notice verbal messages more than nonverbal ones. Whereas women notice nonverbal messages more than women. But here, except for one person, I am not saying you are insensitive. In general we find that men will say, you never told me this. We will tell women you never told me this. But there was a signal that was sent out, but they didn't receive it. So nonverbal messages carry more weightage than verbal messages. It can be true or false. It all depends on the situation at which we are talking. So in a classroom when you are giving a lecture and if you want a pen, I will use nonverbal message. So it is correct at that particular situation. In general, we agree. Scientific thing to say is that it depends. In general, a lot of studies show that women are more queued into receiving nonverbal messages.  Otherwise they will not listen to you. All women do much more than cooking in their daily lives. True? True. And yet, one of the stereotypes that we talked about earlier was about housewife versus homewife. Housewife ignores this particular fact that women do a lot of things. It specifies that women are married to a house. That is their role. Whereas a homemaker recognizes that women do so many things. Cooking, cleaning, taking care of children, taking care of elderly people, sick people, shopping and working. Men also may do all of these things. But we do not refer to men as, you know, not only house husbands. I am saying we do not refer to men purely in terms of their work status. That is what we are saying. So men may do that work. But the fact that most men go out of the house to work, that aspect is not captured when we talk about their status. Whereas in the case of women, when they are doing household work, we refer to them as housewife even though they are doing so many things. So again, it goes back to what I was saying earlier in scientific communication. We have to be accurate. So homemaker is a more accurate term to refer to what women do. Whereas a housewife is not only a stereotype, it is a term that does not mean anything actually. Because again, it seems to refer to the status of a woman purely in terms of her marital status, which is not always very important for us. Is this true when people, how many people think it is true? We can see that it is very few and it is mostly women. So it is very few and it is mostly women. So that is something that we need to become aware of. Because some of us feel that using terms like mankind and he are okay to use, that they do refer to both men and women and there is nothing wrong with it. So that is why a lot of experiments have been done and they show that, for example, you ask that there is this experiment of a book title. There was a book about urban man. It is referred to urban human beings as different from rural people. But when people, children were asked to write, draw a picture, they had pictures where only men were shown, though it was not about men. So a lot of such experiments have been done. Therefore, these kind of generic words which seem to refer to both men and women should not be used. One should write homemaker. But even a male, a man can be a homemaker. So in that case, sir. Yeah, anybody. So that is why we are using that term. It can be men or women. So we all are homemakers. Yes, of course you are. This is a kind of a experiment which you can design, which you can do yourself or you can design for other people. And here we are talking about the workplace community. So earlier we were talking mostly about communication with reference to academic research, about the work environment. I have given you certain kinds of terms which are acceptable and acceptable. It is possible for some of you to share with us what you deem to be discrimination, which may not be recognized as discrimination by others. Overt discrimination, we all know. No, I don't want to hire a woman. I don't want women to do this work. I won't assign this responsibility to women. Those kind of things we all are aware of. But certain kinds of practices in the work environment with reference to communication can, some of you share it, can be both men and women, share those experiences which you think are not adequately recognized by everybody in the workplace. My college, this group of seniors was sitting and they were trying to decide who will go to IIT Bombay to attend this course. So I got a call from my principal, sir. I went to his cabin and then my RC coordinator, he just told me that ma'am you will have to go to IIT Bombay to attend certain workshop. I said that's okay.  I said yes. How will you manage? I said sir, I will manage everything and I will go there. The workshop is for one week. Read all the instructions and then register. I said yes sir, I will manage and I will register. So nobody in that room noted these things. But I as a woman, I felt that these many questions were asked to me only because I am a woman. Everybody else was okay with this. I am not saying that it is his fault because he totally understands that I have a lot many responsibilities. But he will not ask the same question to a male. Yes, of course. Because males are not expected to look after their children, they don't have to worry. Somebody else will do it. Maybe the concern. Because many of the times before assigning work, maybe they look into these factors. It's not because they cannot do. It is the concern whether they will be able to go by leaving their children. These are the maybe some issues. So that's the thing. So these concerns also reflect certain kinds of assumptions and stereotypes in our mind. So that's what we are talking about. And these concerns sometimes can actually look like compliments. So I have a PhD student in our department. She once mentioned this in the classroom. She was talking about how all her relatives always tell she has to grown up children. And all the relatives, oh, you're so great that you're able to manage the PhD. Your husband is so busy. And you have two children who are in 10th standard. I have to give this exam. Still you're able to do it. So she says nobody ever says such things to men. Because by saying this, by paying this compliment, they are identifying her gender and which she doesn't want. Just accept me as I am.  That's what women do anyway all the time. So these things, that's exactly the thing that we are trying to say. That these are not necessarily prejudices. These are not necessarily biases. But these unconsciously can cause hurt or offense or can be taken in different ways by people. So sensitivity means being aware of these things and behaving accordingly. Speaking accordingly. That's what it means. It's not always about bias or insensitivity. It could be the other way around also. So we had some students, a teacher in Bombay University, was saying in the English department, it's the other way around. There are 15 girls to five boys. And boys actually express how they felt discriminated in such circumstances. So it's actually a question of the way in which our society is constituted and our workplaces are constituted. Not simply a question of who certain people being more predisposed to behave in certain ways. In my college, I have given the responsibility of selecting one of the faculty members for the forthcoming engineering physics. So we need to send it. So we have passed the communication to the department H&S. And as one of the senior members, we have identified. And we communicated the same to her. So in turn she communicated, like she had a talk with her husband.  So then she expressed this view. And somehow, like somebody, someone else has been selected for that. So I think this, my point may be relevant to this question. So what we want is for you to reflect on these kinds of things and see how the workplace environment and communication can be made better to avoid these kinds of situations. Can I just ask you how many, in how many of your institutions the number of male and female students is roughly the same? Okay. And then how many are the female students more than the number of boys? Few. Okay. And the majority is... Okay. Girls, okay. Yeah. But you can see that the majority is the other way around. Okay.