Good morning or good afternoon, whatever time it is that you're tuning in for us today, we are glad you're here for another episode of the nonprofit show. Today we have with us Sherri Cheney-Jones and Sherri is the president and CEO of Sure Impact. She's here to talk to us about the relentless pursuit of impact. So stay with us as we dive deep into this conversation with Sherri. Before we do so, we want to remind our viewers and our listeners who we are. Hello to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom, you're a non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group and we are honored day in, day out, weekend, week out, month in, month out, year in, year out. We're coming up on four years in fact and we want to say thank you to our amazing presenting sponsors. 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So please find it. If it's a podcast form, like I'm a listener of that or any of these other streaming channels. And in fact, our guest that's here today, Sherry, we are so glad to have you. And your episode that we are now airing live right here in the thick of it will be on all of those platforms just a few hours later from today. So again, for those of you watching or listening, Sherry Cheney Jones joins us president and CEO of Sure Impact. Welcome Sherry. Well, welcome. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah, tell us a little bit about Sure Impact. What is, what is the mission? What are your goals? How do you impact the sector? Yeah, Sure Impact is a, it's a platform, online platform that helps nonprofits track, measure and communicate their unique social impact. So we help nonprofits have that data that they need to communicate with their funders related to what they do, how well they do it and how people are better off. And I believe that nonprofits should have access to impact data at their fingertips to make better decisions. Okay, so you're, you're preaching to the choir because we talk about this a lot internally. Jared and I talked about this a lot. It's a really hard, hard thing to get your hands wrapped around with all the things that we have to do. And then understanding what those impacts are. I think this is a really important conversation to be having. And you started off, start us off by saying leadership. It's a mindset that we need to be out in front of. Talk to us about that. Absolutely. Thanks Julia. So before I became the CEO of a software company, a founder of a software company actually have a 20 year career helping nonprofit leaders better measure and communicate their impact. And so I published a book called impact and excellence in 2014 and was traveling the country teaching nonprofit leaders. This, this is, this is how you measure impact. These are the outcome metrics you should use. And some of those organizations took this information and ran with it and we're seeing amazing success. Others though were not. And I dug deeper and figured out what's going on I gave them all the tools I gave them the strategy everything they needed to help them measure impact and what I found was the number one factor was the mindset of the leaders. And so we found that the leaders who had this this innovative high performing do whatever it takes to drive the true social change that's in their mission statements were able to easily embrace data incorporated in their culture and and move, move this forward to scale and and achieve sustainable organizations. But those who didn't kind of stayed stuck and there were six things we found that were related to this leadership mindset for impact. And the very first one I think is super cool it's my favorite type of nonprofit leader to work with and it's this concept of they, they see themselves as a pioneer. They're a pioneer for social change and they're, you know, they really believe that they want to move their mission forward. For example, we have a customer who her mission is to change the rate in which young people are diagnosed from one in five to one in 10 in this nation, children diagnosed with mental health. And so that's a bold goal right that is that is something that it's going to take innovative solutions. It's going to take up a pioneering mindset. And they also know understand the importance of partnering with other nonprofits that are going to help them move their organization forward. They're using data to prove their impact, as well as to then make changes that word that was way over in the last three years pivot, but they do, you know, use data to pivot and focus on, you know, what they should be working and what they shouldn't be doing. And then the other P that often gets overlooked but it's so important is this concept of persistence, because there's, you know, we've got big jobs to do as nonprofit leaders, and it doesn't happen like that. Right, we have to stay the course with our strategy, keep planning, keep persisting using that data to guide our way so we can pioneer a new solution. So that's, that's the that's the mindset of these high performing nonprofit leaders that we we've seen that are really driving impacts and social change in their communities. Sherry, I'm curious if that speaks for the board, as well as the executive level management or if this is the majority of the executive level management. Yeah, so we believe in what we've seen is that action is sorry leadership is an action not a title. So yes, we need to see this at the board level and at the executive director level.  It's easier if the board adopts these mindsets and the executive leadership does but if you are running a single department or a single case load, you also can adopt these traits to create great impact in your community. That is so good to hear I've worked with organizations of all sizes I'm sure you've seen this to Sherry and Julia the same is, you know, data is we, Julie and I think data is sexy and I would venture to guess. Yeah, you're right in the same camp with us. And, and, you know, I'm seeing, it doesn't matter the size organization whether it's a small organization or a large organization. It's not inherently adopted to follow data driven decisions. Yeah. And I don't change that. Yeah, so that's my life's mission that's the work I've been doing all along and back to the research around impact and excellence. What we found is that only 25% of nonprofits were using data aligned with their mission to strategically make decisions and so that has fueled me that is, is why I do what I do it's why we developed your impact to help. I say we eliminate the not enough, because what we heard is why they're not doing it is there's not enough time, not enough money, not enough staff not enough expertise. We went to work and said well what would it look like if we could build a tech leverage the technology that's that we have at our fingertips today, and take away those not enough so you have a structure that helps you do it easily efficiently cost effectively reducing that time reducing the burden to get those insights into the hands of the executive leaders. I love it, you know, this leads us to like the next kind of concept about, I mean, it kind of takes my breath away to hear 25% is engaged in this because the bigger number obviously 75% is not. And yet we're out there looking at, you know, building relationships with our funders our donor investors. And so we talk about funding and trust impacts.  Right. I mean, so talk to us about this trust fees because if only 25% of us are really working this this process. Well, what we also found is that nonprofit leaders or executive directors who are not choosing to embrace this outcomes measurement impact measurement in their organizations unfortunately they are leaving significant amount of money at the table. So whereas only 25% of the nonprofits where we're using their data and had the outcomes and impact data to drive their organizations and tell their story. The other side that 25% who are were significantly more likely to raise more money to the tune of 68% more likely to raise more money. So it's the hidden success factor that we need to really be considering in our nonprofit organizations, and so, especially today in today's funding climate so what we've seen which I think is a really good thing is a shift to the trust and philanthropy maybe you've talked about this on your show before. And so the foundations the funders, the donors, they've heard from the nonprofit leaders and they've heard us say, you know what, we would like unrestricted dollars. It's a lot easier for us to run our run our nonprofits when you can give us organizational support and not always tie it to specific programs. So this is a great win. It's a great win. Trust us, you know, give us the money so we can be good stewards and serve our communities and achieve our missions. However, there's one caveat. The funders still want some level of accountability. And this is where trust comes in when you have your outcome data, you're able to share that with the funders say hey look this is how we ensure that our programming is working that we're on track or off track these are the outcomes that we're achieving. And guess what, that gift of that operational support is so much easier for the foundations to give or the grantors to give because there's that level of trust and that level of accountability so everyone wins. When when we're using data to make decisions and tell our story and and so that's that's, I don't know, again, super exciting for me someone who loves data and loves when nonprofits are using data to tell their story and to achieve greater impact. I'm curious Sherry have you seen because I know early and you know are we should say late 2020 early 21 and throughout even even last year 22. We've seen a lot of funders in particular like foundations and grand tours say, hey we know that this was was restricted funding for X, Y and Z.  So seeing that kind of like stay the course as we move forward into this year of 2023. Yeah, so we're seeing a mix of both. We are seeing foundations and funders kind of return back to that the strategy and the strategic grant making that they were doing pre pandemic. And that kind of just hey I know you have a lot of needs. Here's money go solve a problem. That's starting to lessen, but there is more of this this concept of, but if you can tell us it's listening to the nonprofits for them to tell the funders this is what we need the money for this is how we're going to use it this is how this is how we measure impact and this is the impact we've had on the past. So we're seeing dialogue now where they're listening to the nonprofits about their needs and how they are going to use the money to serve that community. So one thing that we've also say, Oh, Julia, do you have a question? Well, going that other direction, I've got to ask. I mean, if nonprofits are struggling understanding data data measurement and reporting out. I'm here to guess that maybe these some of these foundations and some of these funders and donor investors are kind of in the same boat like what do we measure how do we respond. I mean, do they know what's good information. And you know what I'm saying to make a decision. Yeah, I think, you know, we've seen a huge movement in this it started with more of the government funders and now it's starting to trickle down to the the foundations as well and sure impact actually has a platform for foundations where they can work with the nonprofits to identify what are those key outcomes they want and then there's seamless data share between the nonprofits and the the foundations which really makes this whole process of collective impact. So much more easier and realistic. When you have a shared data platform and are able to use your data to drive decisions. And again, that's what I've spent my life's work doing so to me building these impact measurement frameworks is like second nature and of course everything is measurable let me tell you how. To understand that's not everyone's experience so we put all of that in the technology. So important, I, I love that I would love to get my hands on that as well to see how it works and the, the back ends and the reports and all of that that it pulls because like I said, regardless of size of organization regardless of age of organization, I still feel Sherry that like so many and where we say 1.8 million nonprofits registered in the US right still struggle with pulling the data. I mean obviously they're part of the 75%. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think it's because we, we haven't we made it more complicated than it really needs to be. And we say that we need three types you need three types of data any nonprofit you should be tracking three types of data, you should be tracking who you're serving. And so the demographics on those individuals.  You're going to track what do you do with them. So what activities services programs are you offering the dosage. And third is how are people in community better off because of those activities and so you know we like to break it down into really those three data sets. And when you think about it that way, it's not that complicated to be tracking who you're serving what you do with them and on some maybe you know two or three elegant outcome measures how people are better off because of your services. Absolutely. So that takes us to really you know navigating this impact so we're, we are moving from that 75% into that 25%. I just hope that all of our viewers and listeners are like, Okay, if we're part of that 75% we're no longer part of it. So let's talk about how we can navigate this impact to move an organization forward. What does that look like. Yeah. So, it basically looks at, there is an author, a philanthropist Mario Marino he is part of the leap of reason movement maybe you've heard that before. And he was quoted saying once and I so resonate with this, which is, forget your, I'm going to use a different word for your darn funders, do it for yourself. And what is what we was meaning is that as a nonprofit leader. Yes, we do know that if you have this outcome data, you are more significantly likely to raise more money, but also it's about creating the most efficient and effective nonprofit organization that you can run. So it's, it's establishing what are those mission centric metrics that we need to collect so boards are very good at measuring things like revenue and fundraising and those dollars. But you're in business, unless you are a sheer fundraising organization to raise money for another cause. Most nonprofits are in business to create some sort of change in their community. And so making sure that every single day we are, we are measuring to that change that we're desiring to make to ensure that we are creating the, the mission and vision statements on our walls, and using that data to guide our decisions. I think that we stop throwing good money after bad most nonprofits do have very scarce resources. And, you know, let's, let's get the most impact on the resources we have, and know that we're using the, we're doing the activities that will create the greatest change and guess what, let's stop doing the things that aren't working. Most of us would would be more than happy to take things off our plates and refocus our energy on things that really are driving, driving the social change we desire to make. And a quick story I want to tell related to this and why I had so much passion and enthusiasm about the nonprofit leaders owning that this data is not just a fundraising exercise it actually is. You need to own it and use it as part of your organization's decision making. Back early on in my career, I was evaluating some programs that juvenile court was sponsoring. And these were court order programs, and I was able to look at, you know, random group of young people to look and see, you know, if they were court order to this if they were not but controlled for you know other variables. And we found that that program was actually making young people worse. And it's, you know, of course, the people running those programs were wonderful people. They had the best of intentions it wasn't that they were wanting to be harmful. And I just think about, if they hadn't been brave enough to use their data, how many more people a decade later could, could have not been, you know, served correctly or in the most efficient way. And I don't know. So I just, I'm, I'm very, very passionate about that should be the reason that nonprofit leaders are using the data in the first place. And the fact that they raise more money should be secondary. Yeah, that should be a happy side benefit, you know, like warning you might increase your fundraising dollars. I love that. We do have a live question that came in, and I'm curious if you'd be willing to answer this for a Sherry. Yeah, this is from a friend of ours across the pond she's in Canada. So thanks. Or maybe not even across the pond obviously not very geographically. She's across the big lake of where you're located, I guess. Okay, so it says she's with an environmental organization they're doing long term protection of natural environment and so it's very easy for them to measure the number of acres or the you know size of acreage, but it's and assign numerical value to the property level of each property. So they're struggling this is their challenge struggling to identify the impact measures, since the major effect of their work is preventing future development, or future destruction of the environment. So the impact could be decades away. So what would you ensure impact safe for someone like this. So I that's a great question and there's a metric that we help people calculate using sure impact or you can calculate it without using sure impact, which is related to cost per success. And so what that looks at is it's kind of the ratio between how much does that preventative measure that you're taking. And the benefit that that has, how much is that either you could do it one of two ways you can calculate how much is it saving in future community costs, or generating in you know current community benefit. And so once you calculate that that number and that's a somewhat theoretical number and you can you know I'm sure you understand environmental science and the impacts that has on whether it's health, whether it's, depends to the government to do some sort of intervention. And you start to just think of the different ways that that will cost society in the future, calculate a particular cost and then say because we're mitigating that or running that you're you know you then take the number of dollars that it takes to do that. And that's the number ratio. So for example, you're, you're able to talk about you know for every $1,000 you donate you're saving, you know $10,000 in future community costs, because of our work and so that's a lot of ways how we talk about being able to calculate basically the benefit of preventative work. Great question Sherry. What about qualitative versus quantitative. Like, is there a nice blend between those two. Can you dive deep on that one. Yeah, so yes, I'm not a like only, only quantitative data, no qualitative data, I think we need both because as humans, especially if you're thinking about from a fundraising perspective, we make decisions based on our emotions. Right, so the qualitative data helps us tell that that human story, so people care and understand what we're doing but then the data we're going to rationalize those decisions with our logic brain. And so the data helps us know that oh they're not lying to me, and it instills that trust like oh I care about this nonprofit I really understand what they're doing, and they're not just booking one random anecdote out from their, you know, caseload. They have the data to prove that this is true for as many, many of the people they serve or the work that they do. So we need both. It's most powerful when we have both. Well, it's most accurate when we have both. I think that's the thing and we go back to your, your concept of trust and really understanding what it is that we're doing and trusting that our decisions are right. You know, that's one of the things Jared and I talked about this a lot. You know, we are so embroiled in the emotional aspect of our work. And a lot of times it's really hard to step back and say, you know, where we thought we were on an emotional level is not necessarily the reality of it. It's a tug of war. Yes, yeah, and you're kind of bringing up something I just wrote a blog about it last week about the requirement of being vulnerable when committing to measuring outcomes and impact and managing to that because you have to be open enough to find out that maybe what you think is true isn't true. But I see that as a gift, because, because again our emotions most social sector nonprofit leaders their emotions are driving their decisions. And they really want to do better for the world. And so, although we have to be vulnerable to find out maybe we aren't achieving the impact that we thought we were, but now we have the data we need so we can truly have that impact so it's kind of a yes, recognizing that it doesn't you do need to be vulnerable. But the, on the other side of what we can accomplish when we are willing to be vulnerable and look at that data is so powerful. Yeah, you know, it's so interesting because you had shared, you know, during this conversation that through these impacts, like you realize this is actually helping what we thought it would help and so did you you the client whomever like do they decide then to pivot we'll use that P word again, pivot that program or did you close it like, like how do you take this this impact that we thought would have a different result it's not having that result. So now we have the knowledge right and then we have to make a decision with that. So what do we do with something that we're like whoa that through us in left field we didn't expect that. Yeah, so that's where when you have those three types of data who are you serving, what did you do with them and how are they better off. You can start to look at the relationship between those patterns and so for this particular program. What we learned is that a different people or different young people had different experiences. And so although this program was was working in right for some kids, there were some other kids that had some different risk factors or different characteristics that that was not the right setting for them. And so, using this information they were able to revise the program revise how they, you know, the criteria they set to figure out who should go into this program and maybe they were better fits for other kids with different risk factors. And so yeah they changed the way they I mean they use the data and we're very data informed they didn't just throw like the expression throw the baby out with the bathwater. They re orchestrated using data the program. So they could have more success and they did start to see more success once they did that.  It's not really lamb but I'm going to say I think you might might be one of my top 10, all time favorite guests. I mean, in more than 700 episodes, I really, I really have enjoyed this and it's it's hard to believe that our time is is up. And we say that a lot on the nonprofit show. We get so engrossed in the conversation and yeah it's, it's, I love it. Yeah, I do too. Sherry Cheney Jones, President and CEO of Sure Impact. Check out sureimpact.com and you can learn more about what they're doing in their platform. It is such an important concept and Jared and I have seen this and lived through this with the organizations that are in our, our orbit in what we see. I can't press upon everybody how important this discussion is to back it up with only 25% of us really doing this and thinking about that 75% of us that are not. It's just a stunning lens with which to look at this. So Sherry, you've been a great voice to hear. Hey, again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of American Nonprofit Academy. I've been joined today by my trusty sidekick. I like to say she's my nonprofit nerd, but she can also be yours. Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. Again, we are blessed with spectacular support from our sponsors such as Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Your Part Time Controller, Be Generous, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Thought Leader and the Nonprofit Nerd. They are with us day in and day out. Now, more than 700 episodes. And as I mentioned at the top of the hour, more than 10,000 downloads of our new podcast, which we've only been doing for the last year, right, Jared?  So I don't think that it's just Jared and I listening to ourselves over and over again. On repeat. It's just repeat. Oh my gosh. Well, what a great, great conversation today. You've really inspired me and I think a lot of our viewers and listeners will feel the same way. What an amazing conversation. And we have plenty more conversations coming up throughout the next week and months. So keep us with you. The Nonprofit Show is here to talk about all things nonprofit. As we like to end every episode, we want to remind ourselves, our viewers, our listeners, our guests, our sponsors to stay well so you can do well. Thank you, ladies. This has been remarkable.


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