Does the next item of business is members' business debate on motion 167.95 in the name of Bill Kidd on International Workers Memorial Day 2019. That debate will be concluded without any questions being put. Can I ask those who wish to speak in the debate to press the request-to-speak buttons? I call on Bill Kidd to open the debate. I demandering of silent preparations from those who leave on the gallery. Bill Qid will open the debate for 7 minutes. I'm grateful for the MST and Surely Chamber Rwy'n meddwl i gael ar hunain yn dwylo gyntafol i chi'n trafodol, mae hyn yn parlyw wath Commentary Busnes Proceeding ym Mhag hipwysol. Rwy'n meddwl i chi'n trofodol, mhag hyn yn ym Ysgrifennydd. Rwy'n meddwl i chi'n trofodol, roeddwn yn hiwn i gael, wrth gan gweithio aeth i chi'n trofodaeth o dweud y digwyddol i chi oedd, ond oedd yn gobeithio i chi'n trafodol Those who will be participating and those who are showing an interest. The contributions to this debate are something that follows on from last night, where I held an event on behalf of Scottish Hazards and International Workers Memorial Day. It was an extremely interesting and well-attended event. I am very grateful to members from across the chamber who actually came along and contributed. International Workers Memorial Day has been held on 28 April every year since 1989. This year it falls on Sunday, so I am grateful to be able to hold this debate today, and every year this day brings us together to remember the dead and fight for the living. It is my hope that this debate goes some way in grasping both aspects of this powerful statement that has been shared since the first Workers Memorial Day was held 30 years ago. We have the opportunity now to remember those who lost their lives far too early, and we can affirm actions taken to ensure that the mistakes or negligence that led to premature deaths are not repeated. We are lucky to live in a country where health and safety is taken seriously, but the continued examples of people who are made ill through work and those who have died shows us that more needs to be done. For example, it is estimated that in the UK 50,000 workers die every year from work-related illnesses. Causes include cancers, lung disease, heart disease and neurological diseases. Addied to the tragic figure is the 1,500 workers who die in work-related incidents and accidents. This year, unions and workers rights organisations will use International Workers Memorial Day to focus on the impact of dangerous chemicals in the workplace, particularly cancer-causing carcinogens. By doing so, those organisations highlight that changes still need to be made and that workers rights must be taken seriously. In the 21st century, we are now equipped with knowledge and understanding that we did not have in the past. That enables us to be more responsive in tackling or pre-empting issues that affect the health of workers here in Scotland. That greater understanding means that we have greater responsibility in ensuring the safety of workers. Last night, I was delighted to host Scottish Hazards at the Scottish Parliament when the event was held to March 28, and Scottish Hazards are an organisation committed to improving the occupational health and safety of workers. They do a huge amount in their capacity as members of the health and safety executive FAS partnership. In complement with their parliamentary stall a few weeks ago, Scottish Hazards used yesterday's event to communicate important information with MSPs about workers rights. They have welcomed the establishment of the Scottish Fair Work Convention and the publication of the Scottish Government's Fair Work Action plan, particularly with regard to the plan's emphasis on the Scottish Government's commitment to partnership. The contribution of Scottish Hazards to this Parliament has always been very useful, particularly as in last night they highlighted information on dangerous chemicals in the workplace and evidenced how those chemicals pose threats to the health of many workers across Scotland and throughout the rest of the world. I am also thankful for the work of the Trade Union Congress, the STUC's partner organisation, who has also been working hard to spread information about the dangers of workplace carcinogens. The TUC compiled empirical evidence on the prevalence and harmful impacts of two of the most dangerous carcinogens facing workers in this country, namely, as best us, a fibre that when inhaled can cause cancer and constitutes the biggest cause of workplace deaths in the UK and diesel exhaust, which follows as the second biggest workplace killer. Although asbestos was banned in 1999 from being imported into the UK, its dangers are still with us. Around 5,000 people this year alone are likely to die prematurely because of asbestos exposure. Clyde's side action on asbestos has worked over many years to ensure representation of those affected by asbestos-related diseases, as well as raising awareness of those terrible illnesses. Asbestos containing materials such as lagging around pipes and boilers can be found in half a million non-domestic premises and, consequently, are likely to be in workplaces built before the turn of the millennium. That means that people working in maintenance, refurbishment or demolition can be exposed if fibres become dislodged during the course of their work. The health and safety executive estimates that 1.3 million tradespeople are at risk of exposure and could come into contact with asbestos on average more than 100 times a year. That risk of exposure reinforces the importance of health and safety regulation and ensures that workers' safety is prioritised. Estimates show that diesel exhaust, the second-biggest workplace killer, can contain up to 14 known carcinogens and can also contain 12 chemicals or chemical compounds that have been found as probable carcinogens to humans. Those chemicals can be inhaled in the form of gases or tiny dust particles. Diesel exhaust is produced not only by motor vehicles but is also produced anywhere that there is a diesel engine such as from a generator or pump. Those most at risk include professional drivers and those who work in warehouses, garages, construction, seafaring, underground and maintenance. Workers who are regularly exposed to diesel exhaust fumes can be 40 per cent more likely to develop lung cancer. Conservatives' investments show that prolonged exposure is responsible for 800 cases of bladder and lung cancer a year in the UK. That leads to up to 650 deaths a year. Inhalation of fumes can also worsen respiratory diseases such as bronchitis or may aggravate existing heart disease. The issues that are focused on are ones that we know to be highly relevant to Scotland and to the rest of the UK. Across the world, however, the United Nations estimates that more people are killed in work-related incidents and illness than by war. Imagine the headlines that we would see if the same amount of people were dying from a catastrophe or a war. The sobering reality is that those premature deaths could and can be avoided with the enforcement of better safety standards. We owe it to the families and friends of those who have lost their lives due to their work, to recognise international workers memorial day and we must continue to remember the dead, learn lessons and take part in the fight for their living. I say to those in the public gallery that we would prefer it if they did not show appreciation or otherwise. We move on to the open debate. We are really pushed for time, so no more than four-minute speeches, please. Brian Whittle, followed by Fulton MacGregor. I thank Bill Kidd for bringing the debate to the chamber and also for hosting the event last night. Going to work every day, spending a working day in a safe environment and coming home every day seems a pretty reasonable request to me, requiring employers to ensure the safety of their workforce and in a working environment seems a reasonable ask. Apart from anything else, looking after your staff is to the benefit of the company's performance. I attended the International Memorial Workers Day last night and listened to the discussions around the table. It was a real eye-opener. Of course, we all know that there are employers out there who cut corners and put their employees at risk for profit. False economy, in my view, but to hear the scale of workplace injury in death, it was quite disconcerting. My health and safety work, in my view, has undoubtedly improved, but while listening to the presentations on the screens that were there, appeared an incident where a worker died on the Arb Deer site in 2002. I worked there in the mid-80s and were discussing the dangerous chemicals. My job back then was to test explosives for an interesting life. As you can imagine, the protocols for handling those kinds of chemicals are extremely high and the training required for that is extremely arduous. What was interesting to me—I was discussing that with Bill Kidd last night—was that the chemicals that we used to use, the solvents that we used to use within that environment, were used to dispose of what was called the solvent room. That was basically what we combined with the stuff that we used. We just poured them into big bottles, and the floor used to swim with solvent dichloromethane and acetone, etc. I remember once that my shoes were disintegrating. I was going to report that to my manager, and at the time, his response to me was that I needed to buy better shoes. I would have hoped since then that the safety protocols and health and safety had moved on, as I am sure it has, but it was rather disconcerting to note that that incident in the earlier factory was in 2002. My other interest lies in the healthcare sector and looking at the workers' safety. I think that everybody knows my interest in health, especially around mental health and creating an environment in which our healthcare workers can have an active, healthy lifestyle. I think that that is an area that I am really interested in, not just because I happen to have a daughter who works within that environment. While we acknowledge that health and safety at work is improving, and we work it as Bill Kidd says, we are in a country where we take it seriously, there is an awful lot more work that we need to do. As Bill Kidd said, 50,000 people are killed each year through work-related incidents or illnesses. That is where we need to create more work. Once again, I thank Bill Kidd for bringing this to the chamber, and I also welcome and support the work that organisations continue to do to ensure worker safety and highlight where poor safety is an issue. Fulton MacGregor, followed by Neil Findlay. I would like to also take this opportunity to thank Bill Kidd for bringing this very important debate to the chamber. It is a great honour to again be able to speak in this debate, and I will apologise to the chamber in advance for speaking in this debate every year. I might say some of the same things, but I think that it is important that—I know that my colleague Elaine Smith will agree with that—it is important that the representative for Coatbridge and Crescent speaks in this debate when it is brought forward, because my constituency is a proud industrial heritage with strong traditions in the coal iron and steel industries. Working in such heavy industries is frequently dangerous, as people know, with little safeguarding in place to protect those workers. Many of my constituents have direct experience of workplace loss, the effects of which are felt by all in future generations. Like most people who come from the area, I come from a family with a strong and proud industrial working past. I know that I have mentioned that in the chamber before, and I am really proud of his past, but my maternal grandfather worked from the age of 14 in places such as Gartcorshire and the Calderon. I know that he himself was injured at points in new others, but it was not as highlighted back then. Actually, it is just a personal story. At the weekend, I had the kids down at Trampillial Locks, and there is actually a wee part there that has got one of the old or one of the last bits of steel work from Gartcorshire in memory. I was able to explain a wee bit to my five-year-old. I do not know how much it took in, but it is good that those things are there and traditions can be passed down. I am probably the most prominent example of such a devastating loss in my area. The concerns of the loss of 47 lives due to a fire in a local coal mine. That was in 18 September 1959, nearly 60 years ago, when 47 men lost their lives. 41 women became widows and 76 children lost their fathers. It was in that moment that the early shift at the Auckland Geek mine in Moodiesburn, 48 men in total, walked into work as normal. It is normal that a series of trains or bogies were boarded, which were to convey them to the coal face hundreds of feet underground, all of them unaware of the deadly sequence of events that were about to take place. I think that it is important that, even though I have taken that particular paragraph from last year's speech, I will make no apology for doing so every year in the debates that I can speak to them. It is important that we remember them. I know that this year they will be the sixth death anniversary. There is always a memorial service every year, but it will be an extra special one this year. I know that Elaine Smith and Richard Leonard will attend those events in which we all stand in unity for the people who lost their lives that day. I will also keep in the tradition that the constituency, this Sunday, will be a workers memorial event that was arranged by the North Lancer Trade Union Council. It was held at Summerleigh Industrial Museum. It is an annual event where parties who represent the area come together and will do so again. This Sunday, I will be going to that event and then straight out to party conference. Presiding Officer, it is worth saying again that the two signs at the front of Summerleigh read the past being inherent to the future that we build and in memory of all those who lost their lives. The day itself is an international day for remembrance, an action for workers killed at work and an opportunity for reflection and a commitment to change. Although Bill Kidd has articulated well the purpose of the day, we can never forget workers and people who lost their lives at work. I have so much more to say, Presiding Officer, as you could probably tell, but I know that you said a strict 10 for minutes. I would just like to end by saying that it has been a privilege to speak in this debate again on behalf of my constituency. I look forward to the day that we do not have to mark this International Workers Memorial Day. I look forward to the day when workers do not die at work and I look forward to the day when we have an economic system driven not by profit maximisation or that sees workers as a dispensable cog in a machine but we have an economy based on social need and sustainability. However, as long as we have a system based around profit maximisation fuelled by deregulation, we will see workers killed and injured and made ill through work. An international workers memorial day will remain a necessary date in the calendar. Every 15 seconds, a worker dies from a work-related accident or disease, so 16 workers will have died during the course of my contribution alone. In February, a 21-year-old roofer, Nathan Craig, died in Edinburgh when he fell through a skylight working on a roof. Another son needlessly taken leaving another grieving family and community. Lives like Craig should not simply be just a statistic in a speech. There should be a call for action to prevent future fatality. I am very proud that the Labour Party over the course of our existence has worked very closely with our brothers and sisters in the trade unions to deliver huge improvements in health and safety, but we have a long, long way to go. That work will continue in this Parliament, with Clare Baker bringing forward her culpable homicide bill and Daniel Johnson's protection of shop workers' bills. I hope that all members will support them. It is right to put on record our thanks to a number of people and organisations who have driven or are driving change in the area. First of all, I put on record my thanks to my friend and one of my great mentors, Jim Swann, the former trade union convener at British Leyland in Bathgate, who was instrumental in bringing workers memorial day to Scotland. Last night, we were speaking to Kathy Jenkins, Dean Taskers and Scott Donahue from the Hazard's campaign. I pay tribute to them and Louise Tiger, who previously worked in the campaign. I also unite campaigners such as Steve Dillon and Brian Simpson to trade unions such as the RMT, TSS and ASLEF for their work on rail safety, PCS for their recent work on the seating campaign at the National Museum, Unison for their work in the NHS and local government and the FBU defending the fire service, the Baker's union campaign against low pay and exploitation and all the trade unions campaigning to keep their members and the public safe. This week, a great champion and advocate of Scottish workers, Sid Smith, retires from Thomson's solicitors, the law firm that represents many trade unions in Scotland. He represented the trade union group at the Cullen inquiry into Piper Alpha. He fought for justice for miners charged during the miners' strike and he has given evidence to many parliamentary committees and represented the victims of the Lockerbie bombing and the Dunblane tragedy. It is right and fitting that he has mentioned today and we pay tribute to his life's work during the debate. I hope that we all wish him well in his retirement. I have laid a motion to recognise his contribution and I hope that members will support it. This Sunday in Bathgate, I will stand like many women and men from my region to remember those who have died or have been injured unnecessarily because of their work and, collectively, I know that many of us will stand to mourn the dead and fight for the living. John Finnie, followed by James Kelly. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Like others, I would like to thank Bill Kidd for bringing this motion here and for hosting last night's event. I thank Scottish Hazzars and the entire trade union movement for the tremendous work that they do in relation to workplace health and safety. The figures that have already been quoted—50,000 people are killed through work-related incidents—are on this. That is the equivalent of the entire population of Cumbernauld, Dunfermline, Gercody or Eire each year in the UK alone. There are lots of important words in here. Of course, memorial is important, we remember, and I think that there is an international bond of workers that needs to be recognised. I sometimes think, what is it that we can do? What can we do in practical terms? From the website, remember the dead, fight like hell for the living, I commend a press release from 23 April. Something that we can all do as parliamentarians here is to listen to what the European Trade Union Confederation is saying. They quote the figure of 200,000 deaths across the European Union each year. That is the call that they are making for the European Union—in particular, the new European Parliament to be elected in May and the new commission to be appointed following the elections—to set a target of zero workplace cancer and introduce a directive on stress at work. Of course, people very rightly understand physical injury caused by work—the mental stress—and we are aware of the pressure that people are under and feel under at work, workplace bullying incidents and many of the issues that Neil Findlay refers to are the pressure for profit and the willingness of some unscrupulous employers to set aside the wellbeing of the people who earn them that profit just to generate further profit. Another thing that they want to do is to introduce a directive to tackle back knee and finger joint and other musculoskeletal pain. Launch a debate on preventing work-related road deaths and work-related suicide with a view to taking measures in the lifetime of the new Parliament. My intention will be to ensure that Scottish Green candidates support those measures, and I hope that others will do likewise. Mention has been made of Thomas and Solisters in preparation for the debate. I came across a blog written by Patrick Maguire last year. Patrick, many will know, is a doubty fighter on behalf of workers on the cause of justice. I think that the one criticism that we would have of his blog is that he wrongly chides himself in relation to the very matter that he says that it's a cause of regret that he's been unable to achieve getting proper legislation on the statute book. He talks about the Corporate Manslaughter Homicide Act and he talks about the UK legislation that is applicable in Scotland. In the subsequent 10 years, absolutely nothing has changed. That has not been a single precious scooter in Scotland under the act. Workplaces are not safer. Workplace accidents, injuries and deaths have not decreased. The 2007 act was, and is, a waste of time effort. An interesting word, emotion. I commend the Claire Baker initiative. It's important that we find common ground in this, but it's important to say, too, that we have had a fairly recent UK Prime Minister who commended slaying the health and safety monster. There is a very residual presence of cynicism about workplace safety and what needs to be addressed, because if you value individuals, the labour that they deliver, and as has been said, even if you were to take a more cynical, purely pownshillings and pens approach to things, a safe and healthy workplace is a more productive workplace. What we also know is that very evidenced is that a unionised workplace is a safer workplace, so I think that there is lessons for us all there. James Kelly, followed by Stuart McMillan. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I would like to start by paying tribute to Bill Kidd for securing this afternoon's very important debate on commemorating international workers day ahead of the actual day on Sunday. I also want to pay tribute to the Scottish Hazards campaign that other members have mentioned. In reflecting on that, I want to look back on an incident that happened in the area that I represent, Blantyre, which has got a strong mining tradition. On 22 October 1877, there was an explosion at the Dixon's Pit in Blantyre, and it killed over 200 people, which had a devastating effect in the local area. There is a local Blantyre project that is researching the incident in order to produce a book later this year, and it has listed all those who lost their life. In looking at the list, there are two things that strike me. The number of men denoted as married, who went to work that day and would not return to their wives or families, and the number of not even young men, but young boys. Their ages are listed 13, 15 and 16. What a dreadful thing to happen for so many people to die, but also for so many young people. Sadly, that was not the only fatal incident in Blantyre, both in 1878 and 1879. There were subsequent disasters where people lost their lives. The area has a strong mining tradition, but people drew on those incidents, and they drew very closely together as a community. You can still see that today in Blantyre. If you look around the area, there are two very distinct memorials to the incident in 1877, one in High Blantyre up at the cross and one in the Blantyre miners welfare. From that, we have seen greater trade union representation and improved protection in the workplace, which has been very much welcome in the century and a half since the 1877 incident at Blantyre. John Finnie rightly poses the question of what we can do about it as parliamentarians. As Neil Findlay pointed out, there are two member's bills currently being progressed through the Scottish Parliament. Claire Baker's bill on culpable homicide highlights the fact that many people have spoken about 50,000 people losing their lives as a result of workplace incidents or workplace illnesses. One of the issues—again, John Finnie spoke about this—is that there is a lack of protection for people. The progression, introduction and implementation of Claire Baker's bill would strengthen the law and the protection of those workers. As would the legislation that has been put forward by Daniel Johnson on protection of short workers, we are unfortunately seeing an increasing number of those incidents. There have been a number of them reported recently in western central Scotland. There is an opportunity not only to reflect on the debate, but to make a difference by supporting two member's bills that have been considered by the Parliament currently. I hope that members across the chamber will take those points on board. Just before I call Mr McMillan, I have three members who still wish to speak, and of course the minister. I am minded to accept a motion under relate 14.3 that the debate will be extended by up to 30 minutes. I invite Bill Kidd to move the motion. The question is that, under rule 8.14.3, the debate will be extended by up to 30 minutes, are we agreed? That is then agreed. I call Stuart McMillan to be followed by Jamie Halcro Johnston. I too want to congratulate my friend and colleague Bill Kidd for securing this important debate, but remember the dead fight for the living. This is what international workers memorial day stands for. All over the world, workers are showing solidarity and are conducting events, demonstrations and vigils, campaigning for stricter enforcement and also higher penalties for breaches of health and safety laws. As Bill Kidd mentioned earlier on, the fact that, according to the United Nations, more people are killed at work than in wars. That is an astounding fact. Those deaths do not occur in sudden unexpected accidents, but with long-term negligence towards worker safety, they are therefore leading to fatal illnesses such as mesothelioma, asthma and dermatitis. That is disgraceful and it cannot continue. Tomorrow, I will be attending an event in my own Greenwich and Inverclyde constituency for international workers memorial day. Remembering those in Inverclyde and beyond who have suffered due to the negligence of their employers, the theme of this year's memorial day is dangerous substances. Get them out of the workplace. As others have spoken about, this involves carcinogens, a substance capable of causing cancer and living tissue, and examples of those are asbestos and diesel exhaust. Asbestos is the biggest cause of workplace deaths. This year, 5,000 people are likely to die prematurely as a result of asbestos exposure. Although its use has been banned for 20 years, asbestos containing materials can still be found in around half a million workplaces in the UK. There is no safe threshold of exposure to asbestos fibres. Even the smallest of quantities over a short period of time can lead to mesiwchlioma several decades after exposure. It is estimated that over 6 million tonnes of asbestos fibres were imported into Britain during the last century. Most of it is still here in workplaces, homes and buildings, meaning that workers will continue to be exposed. That is one of the reasons why I am working to bring forward my proposed recovery of medical costs for industrial disease Scotland bill. The purpose of the proposed bill is to ensure that the NHS does not foot the bill for employers' negligence as it seeks to allow the recovery of costs associated with NHS treatment for industrial diseases caused by negligence. The bill will not only claw back crucial monies for the NHS, but it will also help to detect workers in the years to come. The proposal was initiated by Clyde's action on asbestos, and I pay tribute to them for that, but also for their dedication that they have shown over many, many years to help people and their families who have suffered through asbestos exposure. This year marks the 200th anniversary of the death of James Watt, the Greenock born inventor who improved the steam engine, which was fundamental in leading the UK into the industrial revolution. Back in 1776, he could not have been able to imagine what industry would be like in 2019. Like him, we may have no idea as to what is going to come in 20 years, 50 years or 100 years, but industries will arise and they will be completely different, and there will be different occupational hazards in workplace diseases that we will not even know about yet. The bill that I am taking forward will actually make sure that we are going to be ready for it, with good measures to protect workers, and with the taxpayer and the NHS. It is important that we mark international workers memorial day to remember all those lives that were shortened due to their workplace, but it is also vital that we work to protect workers' health as best we can, and we all deserve to work in a safe environment. Jamie Halcro Johnston, followed by Elaine Smith Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I congratulate Bill Kidd on bringing this debate to the chamber and marking workers memorial day ahead of this Sunday's event. Just as Neil Findlay mentioned, the Cullin Inquire remembers a young boy, the Piper Alpha accommodation section, sitting at Flotter oil terminal in Orford. It was a very stark reminder of the dangers that people do. The oil and gas sector has seen a number of other tragedies, including helicopters and the like, and hopefully improvements may be made, but I think that there is still more to be done on that. This is obviously still a very important debate, given that around the world thousands of people still die and suffer from injuries at work. That is a disturbing fact that should give us all pause for thought. We know well the history. Here in Scotland, we need to only look at some of the great buildings and great feats of engineering to find them tinged with the memory of the people who died building them, people who are at work and whose safety often seemed far from the minds of others. Remember, for example, the fourth bridge, which lies just a few miles from this Parliament, and the names of 73 men recorded as having died in its construction. The youngest was a rivet catcher, David Clark, who was apparently only 13 years old when he lost his footing, falling to his death. It seems outrageous today, but it took until 2012 before those workers were properly commemorated, sometimes before they were even recognised. It is important always to understand the working practices that have contributed to death and serious accidents. Yes, there will always be genuinely unforeseeable risk and genuine accidents, and yes, some employment will inevitably carry greater risks than others. However, those realities must never serve as an excuse where foreseeable risks have not been managed, where accidents were waiting to happen and where the safety of employees has been put on the back burner. It is now 45 years since the Health and Safety at Work Act became law. This was not a revolutionary change. There had been a variety of pre-existing regulations and bodies, but it did create an overarching principle that applies across employers. Since then, this approach has developed further across the UK and we have come a long way, but there is more to do. Bill Kidd's motion touches on the people who have died from illness caused through their working conditions, the theme of this year's workers memorial day. There are still thousands living with work-related illnesses, from exposure to asbestos, from work-related COPD and cancers, and thousands more who have died. Many of those diseases have laid dormant for decades, but this year's theme points to there are still cases where employees are exposed to dangerous substances in the workplace that can have considerable impact on their health. The TUC has quite properly raised a number of concerns about incidents of exposure and the action that can be taken by Government, by employers and by employees to reduce that risk. We should be looking forward to a time where substances such as asbestos are not just managed but where they can be safely removed and cease to present a threat to individuals. Diesel fumes and other issues that have been raised are notably more harmful than other types of exhaust fumes, and employers have plans in place to avoid exposure. Fortunately, we are looking forward to a future of low emissions and an end to diesel vehicles. That, of course, does not lessen the duty of employers in the interim. I would also like to briefly touch on mental health. Where support is lacking, mental health issues can cause significant problems in the workplace, including long absences. In many cases, too, we know that those issues can lead to death. It is in everyone's interest that support and a preventative approach are in place. Unfortunately, our mental health services are often overstretched and individuals here in Scotland can be left waiting months before even relatively basic support can be provided. Warm words about the focus on mental health have for too long failed to lead to genuine action. Deputy Presiding Officer, our history with protecting people in the workplace has been one of gradual progressive improvement. While we mark and remember those who have died at work, we should learn the lessons of the past and the importance of adapting them to a changing and modernising workplace. The last of the open debate contributions is from Elaine Smith. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I just start? I have a declared interest regarding past trade union assistance, and I am a member of Unite the Union. Unlike others, I would like to thank Bill Kidd for bringing the motions for debate ahead of international workers memorial day on Sunday, April 28. Thus, given all the opportunity to remember the people in this country and around the world, killed in the workplace or by work, it reminds us of the need to do whatever is in our power to constantly seek improvement in the working conditions of people in Scotland and right across the world. It reminds us, too, that that is a class issue and that is a point that Neil Findlay touched upon in his contribution. As in previous years, events will be held in local communities all around Scotland to mark the occasion, and I am pleased that, following my request to the Government in 2008, the Scottish Government also officially recognised international workers memorial day. In a country with a rich industrial heritage, the day has added poignancy as many communities will have been affected by some sort of industrial tragedy in the past. Given its extensive industrial history, the central Scotland region that I represent is particularly affected by such tragedies. As mentioned by Fulton MacGregor, this year, on 18 September, marks the 60th anniversary of the Ockingeekolgery disaster where 47 men lost their lives. This tragedy affected the great many families in the area, including my own family. In the past, I have spoken at the memorial event held annually on international workers memorial day in Coatbridge at Summerleigh heritage park, a point that Fulton MacGregor has made. As I have said many times in this chamber, Summerleigh is well worth a visit. It is preserved and interpreted the history of the local iron steel, coal and engineering industries and the lives of the people and the communities that depended on them for a living, so I would urge people to pay a visit to Summerleigh if they can. Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend this year's event, but I would like to take this opportunity to commend LUTC for organising it, and I wish them all the best for the commemoration event at the weekend. It is important to remember that most workers killed at work did not die in big major disasters. As noted in Bill Kidd's motion, the theme of this year's international workers memorial day is dangerous substances get them out of the workplace, and the main focus of the topic is workers' exposure to carcinogenes, a key cause of cancer. There is a wide range of known carcinogenes that Bill Kidd mentioned, some of them including tobacco smoke, asbestos fibres, which have also been discussed, diesel fumes and a wide range of chemicals used in the workplace. The nature of the disease means that it is impossible to get an accurate figure for people diagnosed with cancer, which is caused by their working conditions. However, the health and safety executive estimates that there are around 13,500 new cases of cancer caused by work every year with over 8,000 deaths. That is likely to be an underestimation, as there are many causes suspected but not yet proven. As we have heard, there are also other health problems exacerbated, such as asthma and bronchitis. Although trade unions and organisations such as Scottish Hazards lead the way in campaigning for safe conditions, including the minimisation of exposure to dangerous substances in the workplace, we should all take an interest in safe working conditions and in holding employers to account. This Parliament, as an employer and a visitor's attraction, should be setting a clear example in ensuring that no hazardous substances, including lacquer, should be used improperly on those premises. Finally, I recently submitted a consultation response for my colleague Claire Baker's culpable homicide bill, which has been mentioned by other people, other members, and I encourage others to do so, as well as to support the bill. I just finished by saying that, once again, I congratulate Bill Kidd as we remember the dead and fight for the living. Now, Colin, Jamie Hepburn, to respond to the debate for around seven minutes, please, minister. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I also join with others in congratulating Bill Kidd for bringing this debate to the Scottish Barn and all members for their considered contributions to the Scottish Government. Of course, it continues to provide its support for international workers memorial day, as we collectively reflect on the impacts of lives lost due to work. Scotland does continue to have one of the best occupational health and safety records in Europe, but we would all recognise and agree that one workplace fatality is one to many. Work-related deaths and injuries take an incredible toll on the families of those affected, on work colleagues, on emergency service personnel called to respond to them, and indeed on the wider community. As well, in that community impact was brought to the focus by James Kelly, when he reminded us very clearly of the impact in the Blantyr community from the various incidents, such as Dixon's pit, that he mentioned, as did Fulton McGregor and Elaine Smith, when they reminded us that this year is the 60th anniversary of that terrible Ochengeach disaster, something that actually directly impacted the area that I represent. There is a memorial to the men from Cundorat who killed at Ochengeach in the centre of Cundorat, which is a memorial to the six families who were left bereft by the loss of their loved ones in that terrible accident. I thought that Neil Findlay made a very important point. He reminds us that this is not just a matter of history, but an on-going struggle. In that context, it is right that we continue to have debates of this nature and continue our efforts. We, as a Government, believe that the best outcomes are achieved by collaboration and partnership working. The partnership on health and safety in Scotland is a good example of that, bringing together a wide range of different partners together. In this case, representatives of the Scottish health and safety system, trade unions, employer bodies, regulatory bodies, among others. The Scottish plan for action on safety and health is a long-term commitment to partnership working across organisations and industries to tackle those areas of greatest concern, such as health and safety in the agriculture, waste management and social care industries. We are committed to continuing to provide employers access to advice on workplace health and safety through our healthy working lives. There are, of course, particular types of employment and industries that show poorer health and safety outcomes. The needs tend to be associated with lower paid and, often, poorer quality work. The large number of people in the, what we are calling, increase of the gig economy are particularly at risk. It is best when you consider that they are often treated as self-employed and do not have access to health and safety expertise and protection. We remain committed to improving the unacceptable working conditions, regardless of their status, sectoral locations, as part of the fair work agenda that we are taking forward that Bill Kidd mentioned at the outset of the debate. Collaborative working is central to the promotion of fair work and ensuring that all employers understand the benefits of an effective employee voice. Engaging with the workforce and workplace health and safety is an essential part of that process, drawing on the knowledge and expertise of any workforce can play significant dividends in safety, but also efficiency and productivity. That highlights Brian Whittle's point about the inherent benefit, not just the obvious benefit for employees but also for employers in engaging in that fair work agenda. Last year, the European Agency for Safety and Health at Work ran a campaign focused on managing dangerous substances with a strong emphasis on exposure to carcinogenic material, something Bill Kidd, Jamie Halcro Johnston and Stuart McMillan raised as a particular issue. The campaign has seen collaboration across European nations to identify the nature of hazards, how those can be mitigated and to share good practice. That illustrates the importance of working in international cooperation on such matters. I wonder if Jeremy's speech will confirm whether the Government will be supporting Clare Baker's bill, Daniel Johnson's bill and Mr Halcro Johnston's bill. Of course, we will give full consideration to legislation. Any legislation has to be considered on its specifics and it is incumbent on us as an administration to consider that carefully. I give that commitment to Mr Finlay and to every member of the Scottish Parliament. Most of the part that was good to go on to make because we are trying to place this in its international context, given that it is an international day. Most of our domestic workplace health and safety regulation has arisen by the co-operation of member states across the European Union over the last number of decades. We know that the UK Government has apparently set out that it is committed to maintaining existing standards, putting some of those of us who may be cynical about that, putting our cynicism aside and also the reality that Governments change aside. There is a concern that a UK outside the EU runs the risk of being left behind on improving health and safety standards without the ability to share the range and depth of expertise that Membership enables. John Finnie made a very useful point in that regard when he talks about the European-wide trade union activity, which, if successful, may mean that the UK outwith the EU is not part of that process. We also recognise that it was a trade union from its inception that championed health and safety issues. Yes, I have no hesitation in doing so. I do not think that we should just think about it in terms of its inception. That is its on-going role. It is a role that we recognise as a Government, and that is why we are so strongly supportive of the trade union movement and are trying to work with them as partners in continuing to better implement the fair work agenda. Of course, health and safety is a critical element of that. I want to finish on one final point of a May, because it was a useful point made by Stuart McMillan. He referred to the fact that we live in a changing world, a changing economy, which brings opportunities for us, but also many challenges as well. He referred to the changing nature of work, in particular technological change, which will continue to impact on the types of jobs that need to be done and who does them. Our workforce continues to age, so employers need to understand what that means for them and how they can support an older workforce to remain safe, healthy and productive. How we continue to consider the agenda in changed circumstances will be important. We have a good record on workplace health and safety, but it is not, sadly, an unblemished one. As people gather at memorials around the country to mark international workers' memorial day, we should reflect on the journey that has been made to get to this point and the sacrifices that have had to be made on the way in order to learn lessons. Despite our best efforts, there is still no guarantee that any individual can go to work and return home safely at the end of the day. International Workers' Memorial Day reminds us that the work must go on.


Many times when we look at ourselves, we consider our life and we even think about possibly being someone who changes the world in some way. Some of us want to be people who leave legacies. Some of us want to somehow find a solution of poverty. There are so many things that some of us dream about that might be bigger than ourselves. But at the same time, some of us may feel a little confused on what our place is supposed to be. We may be dealing with our own struggles, whether with family or with school, drama with friends or issues with our own faith. And because of those realities, sometimes it becomes very difficult for ourselves to feel like we can actually make changes that we want to reach the goals that we want to have. And sometimes we're not even sure what those look like. So today, God willing, what we're going to talk about quickly is how we can be individuals who leave legacies. Looking at what the concept of being legendary actually is, and how being somebody who leaves a legacy isn't necessarily somebody who changes the face of the earth radically, but instead somebody who's connected to Allah SWT, and who through their small but consistent actions also impacts the people that are around them. So to begin, inshallah, what we're going to do is look at what it means to impact the world around us. In order for us to be people who want to change the world or individuals who want to be legendary, we need to be people who care about our community. And so what we're going to talk about is how to be close to the community, how we ourselves, through that closeness, can be people who change the face of the earth slowly. So to begin, let's talk about what close means. Let's get a look at the word see. The word see in close, stand for closeness to God, closest to Allah SWT.  Raise your hands really high. Look, okay, I look around the room. That's almost everyone's hand up. Let's look at what that means. Let's look at what it means to be close to Allah SWT and what it means to leave a legacy in the context of racism. So two companions of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them, Bilal and Abul-Lar radi allahu anhu ma may God be pleased with both of them. They're both incredible companions who we take his room out. Both of them were talking one day. They got in an argument and Abul-Lar speaking to Bilal, whose mother was black.  Now that's beautiful.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's beauty. But the way he said it in the context that it was set in was very offensive to Bilal. So Bilal, he's hurt by what he said. Now Bilal, he may not look at himself as a legend, although we look at him as a legend. But he recognizes that by helping his brother see his wrong, inshallah he's able to help change the way that his own brother looks at an issue such as racism and the way that it affects his brother in Islam. So Bilal goes to the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. The Prophet, peace be upon him, asked Abul-Lar to comment. When he talks to him, he reminds him that he has some ignorance in him. The fact that he's able to say this shows that perhaps he doesn't understand the Quranic concept, the Islamic concept that Allah swt, he doesn't look at our outsides. Instead, he looks at our hearts and at our actions. So when Abul-Lar was told this, his reaction isn't, but I have black friends, his reaction isn't, but I like that black singer. He doesn't try to justify what he said by saying it's not racist. Instead, he owns his own actions. And by doing so, he recognizes that this ignorance that the Prophet, peace be upon him, has pointed out in him is one that's ignorant of the concept of the Quran. His closeness to the Quran in the ayah that Allah swt talks about are different colors and are different tones being a sign for us. When Allah swt tells us that he created us from a male and a female, put us into nations and tribes so that we can know one another. By being able to understand these Quranic concepts, he's then also able to understand himself as a person in the life of being close to Allah. So because of his closeness to Allah, he's able to go back to Bilal, not making excuses for what he said, but apologizing for the way that he hurt his brother. He put his face onto the floor, his cheek, and Bilal was asked by Abul-Lar to step on his cheek as a means of asking for his forgiveness.  Now this interaction between them happened in that moment, but do you think that any of them thought centuries later in the United States, people are going to be using this example as a means of talking about race relations in the Muslim community? They're very likely we're not like, okay, let's set this up so that, you know, in a thousand years, people will be using our example and trying to create this understanding in our community. But because both of them recognize their closest to Allah is rooted in their interactions with one another, Allah's panel to Allah out of their sincerity honored them with us continuing to use their example in our own interactions in the United States today. So their sincerity through their closeness to Allah, their closeness to their society allowed them to be role models for us today, even though they themselves may not have thought that to be a legendary moment for them. Look at Kuntakinte, how many people have heard of Kuntakinte here? Okay, how many of you have heard of Malcolm X? How many of you have read Malcolm X's biography? Who is that written by? Alex Haley. Alex Haley's great, great, great, great grandfather is Kuntakinte. If you read the book Roots, which Alex Haley also wrote, he talks about his great, great, great, great grandfather being kidnapped from his, from his village in the Gambia.  He goes through all the hardships and the injustices of slavery, a free individual who's put into this situation. His family never knows what actually happened to him. When he creates another family here, his own daughter is sold away from him. So his own family that continues never knows what actually happens to him. But every time he goes through the pains of his life, he continues to say it was Allah's will. And I tried to pay my soba for prayer. And he continues to talk about this connection to Allah in a place where he's forced not to speak his native language, in a place where he's forced not to have his Islamic identity, but he continues to be close to Allah despite the struggles that he's going through. Now that understanding of Punta Kinte at one point, I mean this, this, this brother SubhanAllah, he's in one of the most difficult situations ever. He's in, he's, he's enslaved. And yet through all of that, the power of his closest to God, he eventually says that he didn't do all the things that he might have done in the beginning when it was easier. But he hoped that Allah would accept from him, that he never touched pork and he never drank alcohol. He hoped that Allah would accept from him. And he talks about the things that he tried his best to do regardless of his situation. Now Punta Kinte, no one in his immediate family knew what happened to him. But look at how many centuries later, his grandson wrote a book that affected our understanding of Islam in America. Malcolm X, Rahmatullah, has been a means of people not only finding the beauty in Islam, but understanding the concept of social justice within an Islamic perspective. His great, great, great, great grandson was somebody who helped America understand Islam in a different way. And Punta Kinte Rahmatullah Ali was so removed from every single Muslim that he grew up with. He was so removed from his community, yet his sincerity to Allah, his understanding of maintaining that connection despite the struggle, his closeness to God was what allowed for him, subhanahu wa ta'ala, to allow his actions to continue despite the fact that nobody in his immediate timeframe knew what happened to him. Look at us. Every single one of us are going eventually to leave. But we may be doing something right now between us and Allah that affects people that may not even know what affects them, that continues to help people inshallah centuries later. And inshallah those people like us will make du'a for them like Punta Kinte Rahmatullah Ali. So looking at what close means, the beginning means to be close to Allah, now in order for us to be legendary, we also need to love. It's very difficult for you and me to want to change the society when we don't love the people around us. Let's look at what that looks like. Raise your hand if you have ever been to a message or to an MSA or to an IOC, where you might have felt or someone you know might have felt out of place or judged or isolated or not welcome. Raise your hand if you know someone who has gone through that type of experience. Take a look around. That's quite a few hands. Sometimes in our community we don't understand that people struggle, that it's a process to come to Allah. And that there are differences of opinion. And because of our own lack of understanding, inshallah we care so much about inshallah. So sometimes we become emotional and overzealous. Because of that we unfortunately sometimes drive people away instead of venturing ourselves and other people. So let's look at the Prophet Muhammad to Allah. And his love for his society. There was a man named Abdullah who used to drink. And we know that especially in a society where that's not okay in a certain way, there can be consequences for that. So this companion, he keeps dealing with the consequences of his drinking problem. And at one point the other companions, they get frustrated with him. And they're like, man, what's wrong with you? And they begin to say mischief things to him. The Prophet to Allah alaihi wa sallam stops them. And he tells them, this is a man who loves Allah and his messenger. He attests to the love of this man for Allah's panel and his messenger. And he reminds them not to say things like this. That we shouldn't help she upon overcome our own brothers and sisters. But look at the love of the Prophet to Allah alaihi wa sallam versus us sometimes. And I'm sure you've heard it in your IOC. Sometimes you hear people in MSJs go, oh my next sister, I saw her do this. Or in that brother, he was in that spot. We hear people talking about others sometimes instead of loving each other, loving one another to the point that we want people to grow together. And so we're there to help them let their own relatives, when their relatives are loving. But the point is that look at the Prophet to Allah alaihi wa sallam's reaction. He doesn't say, oh, you're right. This isn't a believer. Oh, you're right. This isn't someone who belongs in the most highest community that ever existed. Instead, he attests to his love for the Prophet to Allah alaihi wa sallam and his love for Allah's panel to Allah. In order for us to be legendary, we have to love the people that are around us. And love is in two different ways. The first one is we have to love our own selves. Raise your hand if there has been a point in your life where maybe you don't necessarily feel comfortable with who you are. You've maybe dealt with issues of self-esteem or not really like the way that you look. Raise your hand if you have those types of struggles and it's a hard struggle to admit. But look around the room, that's a number of people. This isn't something you're struggling with alone. So many of us have this struggle. But loving ourselves is one of the ways through which God willing, we can help create an environment that we leave an impact in because we care about ourselves enough. And we have, there is that, or we have this honor, but this humble honor in who we are. An example of the wrong type of love is Shayfan. Adam relates to that. Allah asks Shayfan to bow down to Adam. What's his response? I'm seeing this. What did he say? You're right, that was a no. Seriously, what did he say? Exactly. He said, I am better than him. I'm made from fire and he's made from clay. That's exactly what racism is. I'm better than this person because of an attribute that I had no control over. Allah is going to tell the one who created Shayfan and yet he's taking pride in simply his race. That is a problem when we're talking about loving oneself. But loving oneself doesn't need to be arrogant as sometimes unfortunately we're maybe mistocked. Loving oneself simply means feeling that pride in oneself in a humble way that also benefits other people. So let's take the example of Asimab bin Tumiz. How many people have heard of Asimab bin Tumiz? Few of you? Yes, does anyone want to tell us who she is? That's okay. Asimab bin Tumiz, she was a companion of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. She accepted Islam in Mecca. They were persecuted in Mecca. She settled with her family to Abyssinia. She lived in Abyssinia. So she stayed in Abyssinia for a number of years and eventually she and the people in Abyssinia moved to Medina and moved with the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. So by the time that this group from Abyssinia moves into Medina, it's already been like seven years of the community of Medina establishing. So one time she's sitting, she's with the daughter of Amr al-Dilah and she's with Hafsa and we know those of us who are Sunni, Amr al-Dilah is a huge figure in our lives. We love Amr al-Dilah. We consider him as one of the people of Chanda. Yet he's a human being and he makes mistakes just like human beings do. So one time he's visiting his daughter Hafsa and Hafsa is sitting with Asma and he's like, oh who is she? And then he realizes that she's one of the women who came on the boat. So when he realizes that she's Asma bin Tumiz, one of the women who came from Abyssinia, the way he responds to her is, we got here first. Therefore, we have more of a right to the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ than you do.  When you are that, you have more. We have more of a right to the message than you do. We isolate and we excommunicate people from our community. When in reality, if we were people who mentored ourselves and the people around us, we could be individuals who are covering so much good to our community because we are a healing community. We allow people to start loving themselves instead of hating who they are. So, Asmaa, she recognizes this love for herself and her community in the sincere way of recognizing that Allah has blessed her with these experiences for a reason, not just to test her to be away from the Prophet ﷺ, but also to be somebody who speaks up for her community. So, Anu, for all the love for herself, she says to Amrullah, because she's proud in a good way, in a sincere, confident way, she responds to him and says, by God, you are wrong. You were with the Prophet ﷺ while we were hungry and we were thirsty and we weren't being taught the way that you were being taught with the Prophet ﷺ. I swear I'm not going to eat or drink anything until I go to the Prophet himself and tell him what you said. I'm going to say it like it is. Now, the incredible thing of what Asmaa did is that she herself, maybe in that moment, didn't realize what an impact that would have, not only for her smaller community, but for us today who are talking about her. But she actually took a direct action that would be helpful. Unlike sometimes us, maybe something happens and we're like, oh yeah, I'm going to post it really quickly on Instagram and let's count back those.  I mean like going through all of those different roads may not necessarily help the person realize their mistake. It could even cause bigger issues of love in our community. But what happens if it's not the Prophet ﷺ? What does he say? When he heard what she said, he told her ﷺ. Now Omar and his companions, they don't have more of a right to me than you do. You and your companions have made Hijrah twice and they've only made Hijrah once. Okay, I'm not false. So by saying this, she's being told that her and her community of people who came from Abyssinia have doubled the reward than the people who came immediately to Medina. In other words, those of you who have struggled, those of you who have been trying, those of you who may have felt unwelcome, who've had issues with the way that you look when you've been created, Allah Almighty recognizes your struggles and when you're struggling and sincerely trying to come back to Him. There's double reward for the person who's striving for his sake. Now, Asmaa, radiAllahu anha, when she was told this and she told the other people who came with her, the other members of her community were so overjoyed by what they heard that they kept coming back to her over and over. The men and the women of her community, they wanted to hear this Hadith again and again and again because they made them so happy to know that the Prophet ﷺ declared that they could double the reward. So the point here is that Had Asmaa decided that she was just going to sit back and say, he is Amma. I mean, who can know more than Amma will be loved by Allah. May Allah bless him. He's such a high person who we have high instinct. But the point is that she recognized that she had a voice that she needed to use to create agency within her own community. And through that voice, she continued to alter the way that we look at history. And she left a legacy in that moment that we reflect upon now in America over 1400 years later. Let's look at people who are a little more recent, people that you might have heard of who had some struggles, maybe made a few mistakes, failed a couple of times, but are considered great people of their field. How many of you like basketball? All right. Okay. Give me this name. This guy got cut from his basketball team and he wanted to his room and he started crying. Michael Jordan, this guy was told that if he continued in school, he was told that he was deaf, that he shouldn't continue in school in any type of intellectual ways. He should instead get into a trade that would be solely based on his personality because he had a pleasant personality who wasn't smart enough to continue in the field that he wanted to study. He was told this by a teacher. Who do you think that was? I'll tell you, it was Thomas Edison. Thomas Edison, would you think Thomas Edison isn't an intellectual person? No. No, but he had enough love for himself and confidence in his abilities that he kept going regardless of how many times he was told that he was a failure. Third person, he was fired from his newspaper for lacking creativity and original ideas. Walt Disney, and how many of us would think of him as someone who wasn't created? The point is that throughout history, there have been people who have been told you're not worth it, who have been told through actions that they're not worthy, yet they continued out of love for themselves and understanding of themselves, this concept of feeling honor for themselves, and striving to pursue something that they knew they could make a difference in regardless of the boundaries that they faced. So that's loving oneself. Let's look at loving society. In order for individuals to become legendary, we need to love our society. So let's take a couple of examples. Nana Esmet, has anyone heard of her before? She was from the Khalifa of her time period in Nigeria. And Nana Esmet, she's a princess. I mean, she is in riches, but she seeks education.  Now, she could have chosen, especially considering her background, considering her field. She kind of decided that since she's from a family of the palace, she's going to stay in the palace. And if she wanted to teach people, maybe she could only teach people who were other royal members like herself. Instead, what she did is she got together teachers who she mentored, and then these teachers went into rural areas of Nigeria, and taught women who didn't have access to education the same way that people did in her place. So because of her love for society, she was able to help create an entire system that brought women opportunities to learn because of what she did for her community. Look at Sulaq-e-D. How many of you have heard of Sulaq-e-D? Okay, how many of you have heard of Sulaq-e-D? Okay, let's see those hands again. Sulaq-e-D, put them up really high. A lot of hands. The rest of the names he didn't really hear too much about. Sulaq-e-D was Kurdish. He wasn't Palestinian, yet he was known as someone who liberated Masjid al-Aqsa, and who liberated that area not just from Muslims, but to bring justice for Jews and Christians as well. Now, Sulaq-e-D, even though he wasn't the same race as the very people who he helped, he wasn't this anomaly that just showed up and changed the face of the world. Most of us are not going to find the answer to peace and war and solving poverty and homelessness. That's not what most of us are going to do. But every single one of us are going to impact certain influences in people's lives that are around us, that will create an effect that can help people in the future. Esmet-e-Din, Nur-e-Din, Milam-e-Muqt, Esur-e-Din, these are all individuals. Esmet-e-Din was a female by the way. All individuals who came before Sulaq-e-Din that changed the shape of the area that he lived in that built the opportunity for him to come in and finally take Masjid-e-Aqsa and liberate Jerusalem. If it hadn't been for the work of all of these people who so few of us have heard of, Sulaq-e-Din wouldn't have been in a situation in a position where he could have taken the haunt. We name our kids Sulaq-e-Din. May Allah bless them, Rahmatullah alayhi.  Us too, right now, we're living in a time where we're dealing with, we're dealing with Islamophobia, we're dealing with struggles in our own communities, women, we often talk about how little space we have in our own life. We miss out sometimes. We're dealing with struggles, but it's one of my teachers once said, if you lived in a time where everything was perfect, your existence wouldn't make that much of a difference. Whatever you do right now is going to affect people to a greater level because of the hardship that we're going through. So recognize that by loving our society, we can be means of helping change the way that people not only look at our religion, look at them as a community, but also bring benefit to the society as a whole. So we must love our society. Finally, there's E in being close. E is in education. Sometimes we see things in our community and we get a little frustrated. There have been times that you might have heard things and you were told that those things were haram and then later on as you started to learn a few more things, you started realizing that scholars have differences of opinion, that Islam is vast, that scholarship is great, and it's deep. And through learning all of that, sometimes we're able to respect one another a little more. We're able to understand where one another is coming from. Educating ourselves is one of the means to loving the people around us and that love, as we've been talking about, is something that can influence our actions. Let's look at the concept of having a female present in front of both man and woman. That's an issue that a lot of communities have a contention with still. But let's look at Ibn Taymiyya, a huge scholar in our Islamic history. He had a student whose name was Faltima al-Baghdadiya. Faltima al-Baghdadiya used to be such an incredible student that Ibn Taymiyya in his encyclopedic brain would still have to prepare for her studies with him. She used to teach from the memoir of the Masjid in Damascus, not Juma'at, not Salat al-Juma'at, but just in general. She would give lectures from the memoir, and men and women would learn from her in the Masjid. That's Ibn Taymiyya's student, but look at the way that we ourselves sometimes look at what it means for a female to be in a space of scholarship.  Like, for example, Sheikh Faltima al-Baghdadiya, has anyone heard of her before? Yeah? Okay, who was Sheikh Faltima al-Baghdadiya's teacher? In the works of Ibn Taymiyya, huge works in Islamic history. Think of, like, huge scholars you've heard of. This is the greatest scholar of Sheikh Faltima's time in these works. Any names? Great scholars? If y'all come out with me, I can't hear. I was like, what are you doing? Huge scholar names. What was that question? Thank you for asking. Sheikh Faltima al-Baghdadiya used to learn from another person, and that person was the greatest A'alim of that time in the books of Al-Qabrani. Who was that scholar that Sheikh Faltima's A'alima learned from? Sorry? Her name was Sheikh Faltima al-Juzdaniya. Sheikh Faltima used to learn from A'alima, who was a female in her time period. The works of Al-Qabrani were the most understanding of those books. The most licenses in those books was a female, and men and women would study to travel with her. And then Sheikh Faltima al-Sa'adiya learned from her, so that men and women would study to travel with her. The point is that in our history, we have so much scholarship from young people like all of you, from females like all of you, from converts like many of you, from individuals who might have been those who are involved with things that they made mistakes in, but then changed over history, like Malik ibn Dinah, some of us have things that we're maybe trying to become better through. We're trying to reconnect with Islam in different ways. Some of us may feel like we're already there and we've left that way of the past, but the point is that through educating one another, we can then be individuals who are accepting of the fact that sometimes we may not agree with something, but there's still a basis for it within Islamic history. Sometimes there are differences of opinion, but we can't know that until we educate ourselves about them. So the point is that in order for us to be individuals who are legendary, we need to do just a few things as we talked about. The first one is being close to God, the second one is having love for ourselves in our society, and that those four are together and with education. Educating ourselves whether Islamically or whether the science is that you're learning, which all can be related to Islam with your intention, inshallah will be means of us helping create not only a legend for ourselves, that doesn't mean that everyone's going to know our names, that doesn't mean that everyone's going to remember who we are, but because we're sincere, we're close to Allah, and we try our best to please Him through helping our society. God willing, He will provide spaces for us for our deeds to continue even after we're gone, and that is what legendary is. For us to be sincere enough that we invest in things that continue to help people around us regardless of what who we left as, inshallah God willing if our actions can continue, God willing we will be legendary in His sight. The point is to be close to Him, and part of closeness is loving one another. So because we're talking about being close, what I'd like you to do as we end is go ahead and stand up, hug someone next to you, or give them a handshake, and show them your close steps. Go ahead. So I know that they've passed out some note cards and some pads, so if any of you guys have any questions that are already ready, sisters you can pass them to like Yusmeen, and brothers you can pass them to Anu and Reshan, those of you who are selecting them up, and you can bring them up and we'll read them, and so you can see your actions in turn. What are your views regarding parents pushing or recommending their kids into careers on the basis of money, as opposed to careers that build worldly change, i.e. more social workers or educators? My view with regards to parenting is that every child has different interests and has different skills, and that parents should try their best to understand what those are and help encourage them into a field that they could use those. I know many parents have a specific view of a doctor, engineer, or doctor, or an engineer, or a doctor, and I understand that that's not very wide in terms of the range that we're given, and at the same time though, if that's something you're actually interested in, it doesn't need to mean that you are money company or you're driven because of success, because that's why our communities sometimes consider successful. These types of areas can be used for social justice and for social work and for helping other people. It's just about the intention that you have and the way that you pursue that. So I don't want to create a dynamic where social justice fields such as social work or areas where you work with nonprofits is on one side and then the quote-unquote successful money-driven fields on the other. I don't want to create that type of paradigm, but what I would do is just look at what works for you as an individual, what is your passion, and sometimes you don't know where your passion is. So take a test that can help you kind of figure out what those areas are and then try your best to compromise with what your parents want. Sometimes you're still going to push you into the medical field, for example, and maybe you want to be a writer. You need to be a problem from the beginning and let them know that that's not going to work long term if eventually you see yourself talking at a medical school. And if you think you can go ahead and do that, that's great. If you can compromise somehow, that's awesome. But be aware of yourself too and try to compromise with your parents and see what your parents would be accepting of. We do want to please our parents and respect them, but at the same time that doesn't mean that they need to make major decisions for us that's going to affect our lives long term, that may not necessarily work for us long term.  So be very open to your parents' wisdom because as much as most parents understand us, sometimes better than ourselves, they care so much about us most of the time they just want us to be successful. So the issue is work on your intention regardless of what area you go into. And as you go into that area with your intention, try your best to help your parents compromise what they actually want you to do. This is what you may be interested in and try to find something that kind of brings together both of those. How important is this phase in social justice and should Muslims be more involved in causes fighting oppression? The phase is incredibly important in social justice. There are two verses in the Quran that are almost identical. They are slightly changed in their versing, their wording, but they both say oh you who believe stand up against oppression or stand up for justice, whether it be against yourselves or your family members, your own parents, whether it's scripture or forks, that's okay. Regardless of who it, regardless of that, because God is going to be, God is going to be, right, I'm very loosely translating that. But the point is that the Quran explicitly talks about standing up for social justice and the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam has done this throughout his life and you see the Prophet, so many of them are coming and saying worship God directly and be just in your dealings. Worship God directly and be just in your interactions. This was part of their message. Social justice was a part of the message of the doubt of the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. So the point of social justice is incredibly at the core of this step and the problem for us sometimes we don't necessarily know how to implement it. I'll give you a general ruling about implement this. The Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was asked to participate in help and forlure before the Prophethood. This was a means of, this was kind of like a group of people that came and who stood up against injustice when somebody was wronged within the Mexican community at that time. Now the Prophet Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam asked your Prophethood said that were he called to join him again, he would have done so. This is after he's a Prophet. Now the people that he worked with were pagans. They were people who were sometimes not involved in things that you know we wouldn't be full with.  These are pretty big issues. Yet he still would have worked with us for the cause of social justice. And even after he became a Prophet, where these same people went to war with him, killed people that he knew, mutilated his own relative. After all of that hardship he still said he would have still gone ahead and worked with if it was for the sake of standing up against injustice. So when you're looking at should I work with this group of people? I don't know if I agree with these issues. Should I work with these people? I don't know if I'm comfortable with this. Look at the issue. Is it one that's standing up against oppression? Is it one for social justice? Yes. Then join them. And you be firm about your own sincerity and your beliefs. You don't need to go around telling everyone that. But you know your limits. You conduct yourself as a Muslim who somebody other people God willing I hope would find that they can relate to. And just go ahead on your own principles, but work with people. Work with people. What I've always said that I think would work for justice even with the same people. So the point is it's super important and please make sure to do it.  Frequently in America, the wider Christian community is disconnected from the Muslim community. Either by sectarianism, ECR differences, differences in culture, religiosity, or lack thereof. Do you have any suggestions on how to approach an injustice problem? Most of my family members are converts. The majority of my family married someone who wasn't a Christian. So even though my parents are ethnically a Christian and another one of my cousins is a ethnically a Christian, the rest of us are racially mixed and are converts. So I honestly do not relate to the Christian community the same way somebody from a real Christian community might. I wasn't really raised with that culture. I honestly don't feel comfortable answering the question because I know yet. So I hope some of us can. Is anyone else a Christian in here who can answer this? No. Sorry? Yeah, sure. Okay. I mean, of course I have I have personal relatives who I love deeply, but this this is not my expertise because that's not that's not my focus. So I honestly can't answer it. How to deal with people telling you about wearing hijabs the right way? Okay. So people ask me how should they give advice to someone about wearing hijabs? My typical answer is don't give them advice about wearing hijabs. And the reason is because hijab is a very it's a very difficult thing to wear. And I don't mean just because you're you're judged immediately by what you wear. It means so many things and not every person is comfortable wearing that that outer garment so publicly for so many different reasons. We can't pinpoint it to a specific reason why someone's not feeling that that's the way they want to represent themselves at this point. So the point is I would not recommend giving people advice on hijab unless you're really really close friends and you know that they want that. Unless they've asked you to give them advice unless you have that type of relationship where you know they're comfortable with that that's different. But just coming up to someone to be like wear hijab because the law wants that be careful because you could be somebody else who could turn someone away from the community and hijab was legislated 14 years at minimum 14 years after after the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam started to begin the Dawa. The Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam had mentorship in his community. He created this bond between himself and the community. He helped people love Allah the sooner the work revealed has to do with it hereafter. I'm not saying people will don't wear hijab, don't have a close connection to Allah. But point is as a general community as a general community we cannot expect people to do things when we do not have programming like the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam did. We don't have mentorship programs in general. We don't have spaces for women in general. Maybe we have a prayer hall but it's not typically the prayer hall that the men have and the same access to knowledge. We can't expect people to be like the companions of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam when we are not the companions and the way that we mentor people in our communities. So the point is you as somebody who might struggle with being told that you need to wear hijab this way or you need to wear hijab that way.  You work on yourself to the best of your ability with mentors who can help you get to wherever you're trying to go for the sake of Allah. Have supporters who understand you and who are willing to be your friend and who can help you in those times where you're really offended or hurt by someone. But realize that your issue of dealing with the struggle with hijab is one of so many issues our community is going through. So you're not alone. There are many people who feel like they're isolated. Recognize that of course hijab is a beautiful thing in Shalom when it's possible. But at the same time being consistent and slow in your growth is insha'Allah going to be pleasing to Allah the Almighty versus doing something overnight. And I'm not not encouraging it. Do it overnight if you're ready. Do it overnight if you're ready even if it's a slow process. But the point is that it's okay if it takes you some time to get there. Your point is just you know that you have a goal to get to. And there are so many other aspects of that all that needs to happen for you to get to that point where you're comfortable and ready. And no one's going to tell that knows this. Now I'm not saying to make excuses for everything. All of us whatever whether it's hijab or anything else. We don't make excuses. But we do know that we're trying our best. We have people to support us and love us. And at the same time we know that Allah recognizes how hard it is for us. So insha'Allah take things to the best of your ability. Have mentors who can help you and find friends who can support you through that time. Because it's very hard when you feel like you don't belong and you don't have a place that you can contribute. There was a sister recently who was telling me she doesn't work hijab and she was saying that she just doesn't feel like she can have a place in the community because people immediately make assumptions about her simply because of her dress. And if we're to a point in our community where we're causing people to feel like they can't be a part of our community. Heck yeah they're going to go somewhere else. And then what are we going to do? And then we complain or we don't have people. One is kind of like we haven't provided those spaces for people. Yeah. So I have a question about what you were saying.  I mean that's a really difficult reality for women especially. And I know it's a difficult reality for men too. I know we talk about women a lot but men also are expected to be a certain way and then you're not necessarily given relatable mentors to be that person. So it's very difficult on both sides whether you're a female or male. There are systemic issues in our community that haven't been addressed and that affects both genders. So what I would recommend if you're going through this whether you're a male or a female is that you see how you want to grow as a person, what your goals are, and number two how you want to contribute to the community. If you have tried your best and created the alternatives, tried so many different ways of making that happen and it still hasn't happened, maybe it's time for you to create a third space. That doesn't mean you break away from the message. It simply means that you also maybe can create something where people like you who feel the same way can grow together, can learn together, can come together as a community. You're still involved with the greater community where you're creating something new where people can be themselves in a way where they're not feeling like they're forced to be who they're not or where they don't have the space where they can actually contribute. It's a long process but it's so important to have mentors through that process. Don't do it alone. Five people who are grounded in Islamic knowledge, people who've studied and who've been involved with activism so that they know how to help you through that process because a lot of times the problem is we get excited and we want to change and then we do things that aren't necessarily Islamic-ly grounded. So make sure that through that process you have mentors and tell us how to help you through. Sorry this is the same question. These are all the same. A lot of stories we learn from and listen to are from the Prophet's time where if there was a dispute or conflict it was taken to the Prophet's wisdom and subtle on his authority. It is authority within question. He was widely respected and we learn from his wisdom. Right now we live in a world with no Islamic leadership so much the time the Prophet's always so enough. Or for example in Catholicism. Does that lead to any difficulties and who can Muslims turn to? Of course it leads to difficulties but you know what's incredible? The Prophet's wisdom laid the groundwork for Islam to be relevant until the end of time. So what that means is that even though there were questions during that time and they could go to the Prophet's wisdom immediately and they could get advice on what to do, there were also times when the companions had to make their own decisions and they came to the Prophet's wisdom afterwards and told him what they had to do and making those decisions and he mentored them through that process of the decisions. So the point is yes in general they had that type of leadership but at the same time he set groundwork for them to make their own decisions after he was gone. So so yes right now of course we have difficulty with this we're not now always sure who to go to. What I would recommend is number one recognizing that it's okay that sometimes there are going to be differences but you need to find someone personally and as a community who you feel is relatable to your situation and who has a strong understanding of both the Qur'an and the Sunnah and the gospel works, the gospel understanding what the Shia is. Be able to have that person grounded but also involved with the general community merging those two ideas helps people connect to them and understand how they're supposed to be as a student in Florida and also be a strong person. So what I would recommend is find someone like that in your community who can mentor you as a person. Mentorship is so important I keep using that word and also as a general community hire someone who can help be that point person for your community in a general process. If there is one tip for time management what would it be not including making a Provedure? May Allah bless you for saying that including making a Provedure. I would recommend the one tip I would recommend is writing down your goals long term and short term and writing out what's most important for you to do in that day because setting up a schedule like I don't know checking Facebook B not as important. Studying for exam tomorrow A super important. So like just make a time management schedule keep up with it every single day and having short and long term goals and then challa you will achieve a lot more than I need to do all these things but they're in my head and oh my god it all goes out of luck. I'm going to wake up at two in the morning and then I'm going to setting up a good actually wake up Provedure. So just make a time management system that has to be with a plan or outright. There have been fewer intellectual thieves than Thomas Edison in history. He stole everything from Tesla. I will say that I am not in any way an expert and expert in Thomas Edison or Tesla. Other biographies or the realities. So forgive me for mistaking something in my lecture if that's the truth and I'm not saying it's not the truth and thank you so much for clarifying. I can definitely see that throughout history we've attributed some ideas to others one that's not actually their idea so may Allah forgive me if that is the case and I give all credit to the other person. Often as a Muslim or some whatever I whatever's right which all of that's the one I would say if I can. Often as a Muslim thank you for correcting me. And as an active member in Muslim organizations there is a stigma against certain social justice organizations and people find it foreign when deciding how individuals to be suggestions. I think I answered this earlier when we talked about health with the law and choosing to involve a social justice by also recognizing what your specific sentences are personally and just being grounded while you're working with everyone who's standing for justice. Final question as a woman I have to find myself pulled in many directions and perhaps pushing myself too far by being a doctor, a wife, mother, friend, a scholar. No those are not big deals all together. How do you find this balance? Well I think I think what's really helpful is recognizing what your priorities are and then working based off your priorities.  So I'll give you an example. Sometimes what I do is I work with my husband and we work on scheduling my schedule of traveling and for me I want to make a priority our relationship as a married couple. So of course at the same time I need to prioritize the issues of the community and being there to help specifically women and talk about issues that sometimes we don't get the chance to talk about when there are male scholars. So what is what is the priority there? Both are so important. So we work on balancing it. Some weekends for travel, some weekends for working on errands, house stuff, our relationship. So the point I'm only giving you this personal example super curious and I wish I had a point is that sometimes what's helpful is to just look at the different aspects you have in your life, work with the people that are around you and try to make something that balances them. They may not be 50-50 but you see giving each thing is due time. Now at the same time you might find that you wish you could give more time to your studies but you have too much on your plate when it comes to family. That's okay sometimes that's going to happen in your life but later on in your life you're going to have a different situation. There's a quote that my mother-in-law loves and it's bloom where you are planted. So bloom wherever you are planted, deal with that situation when you're in that situation and then as time changes inshallah you can change your priorities at that time as well. Just work on what you have within that time span inshallah. And inshallah we're going to head now for Salah. Salah, if you can forgive me for my mistakes, it was an honor to be with your community. I'm very excited for what you're going to do. It's kind of a long, long behind the kitchen on that and stuff. We're going to do that. So I'm going to come back to you.


I have slipped though, I apologize though. I ain't did, I ain't did a lot like I should be for Roly Kids. It's been hustling. I'll bomb someone once a year. Okay. I do, I bomb someone once a year and I just sit back and thought about it. Yeah, not a P-R-I-E man. I sit back and thought about it today riding around and I'm like. Let's talk one on one, one on one. Here we gon' talk. Wow. So are you, okay. So the next time, I mean, are you doing anything for the Christmas, for the kids or anything? Yeah, on the 18th, let me see. I don't know, I don't know. And the MOT3 mama, you should just text me there. Yeah, the MOT3 Foundation man, yeah, on Thanksgiving we have, she had put together a good event where we went over there and fed by 500 people. That's all right. And on December 18th, 300 KK Street McKinney, Texas, December 18th, 300 KK Street McKinney, Texas, they got a big old bike giveaway, toy giveaway, toy drive and everything. So everybody, yeah, I get ready for that because if y'all got some kids, you have to know some people you need. And it's in McKinney? It's in McKinney.   Yes, she live up there. That's why they, you know, a lot of his background roots at. Yeah, so, yeah, it could be big out there.  Yeah, yeah, sure. He did? Yeah, I paid two people rent. I got a whole camera thing's been to come out. And the last person, you know, I walked in there. Were they expecting it? No, they ain't know. I was picking around the people. Oh, okay. And I walked in there. They ain't know what's coming. So I walked, I knocked on the door. I go, she go open the door. Hey, man, we carried y'all as a family need. I'll come and help y'all out. Come on in. Right. I seen the size 11 shoes sitting over there. So it was a nigga over there somewhere, right? And then it's a PlayStation five. Ooh. Right. So they just not, hey. It was kids running around too. I don't know what kind of kids. Y'all looked in the airstrikes and some doobies. Yeah, doobies too. Doobies. Them big old baddies. Did you decide not to do it? Yeah, I walked out. Yeah, cause you know I. So she didn't say, hey, hey, weren't you supposed to do? I snuck out. You snuck out. Because you know I read that nigga over there. Yeah. They ain't doing nothing. Yeah, and y'all smoking blunts and they kicking it. Kicking it. The kids run around just. Yeah. You're not put. I've heard of situations where people don't be painted, but they have all the brand new clothes. People just don't know how to. No, it's the people in need. So y'all know people in need and Christmas. Y'all tell me real need. That you know. Yeah, come on. I ain't got no.  I'd be wanting to call the police. I want to call the police on them. CPS. Yeah.  There's a five and kids running around here. And no women should be ashamed of themselves. Y'all women, if y'all don't have, y'all don't need to have no kids. If y'all can't can't take care of these kids. And some of these women, they having kids, they having kids for the hell of it for. They looking for love. Yeah. Some women just looking for child support. Real talk.  Not at all. Yeah, right. I really want to call the police on some of these people. If they ever see me running water snitching, y'all want to call the police on some of these parents that don't have no reason to have any damn kids. I got to ask you about, uh... You taking care of all your kids? Yeah. I got to ask. Yeah, not that. Everybody stay with me. I got to ask you about... I'm trying, everybody stay with me. If I have some old kids, I'm trying my best to make everybody stay with me. You like this. Everybody can't stay with you. Yeah, you see home alone? So, okay. So let me ask you a question. You said everybody. Are you having all these kids by the same woman? No, I don't slip up over the years.  Yeah, but the mommas, man. It was something I was going to ask you about, man. I know I was going to ask you about taking care of the, you know, as far as the doing things. At the first of the year, I definitely got to have you back on this show for sure. No, I have slipped though. I apologize though. I ain't did, I ain't did a lot like I should be for Raleigh kids. It's been hustling, man.  This was a bit ugly. I bombed someone once a year. Okay. I do, I bombed someone once a year and I just sit back and thought about it. Yeah, and I peed where I leave, man. I sit back and thought about it today, riding around, I'm like. Say, we been catching the bus too long and not on. Everybody, most three kids feel too rich. Yeah, yeah. Retarded rich. Yeah. They got more money than a lot of people that is. But I think the word in the city of Dallas forgot about Raleigh. Say, man, I'm here, I've been traveling, but ooh, man, I forgot that Dallas got some bad motherfuckers. And I talking about him, that's the much as. I get where you coming from too. Yeah. Yeah. Who is there to keep his name alive? It's up to me. You understand what it's like how you keep in more three to name alive? And then I forgot about Raleigh. I ain't forget about Raleigh. But you going through something though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.  How old are these kids? Really got a twin, really got five kids. So every year I try to, every year I do try to buy them something, but then, and then people, I remember them saying that Raleigh, don't do this for this kid. Raleigh, this kid, the focus should be on Raleigh kids. Mm-hmm. You know what I'm saying? His movie that was on, before he died, that was on Starz last week, last month. I'm sitting there watching this movie, Raleigh pop up in the movie. Yeah. And I know where it's like, I said, yeah. And that's why sometimes I be mad about to see that Dallas, I say.  But. Yeah, we on boss talk one on one, one on one. Yeah, we gon' talk.