A turbojet aircraft is flying with a velocity of 320 meters per second at an altitude of 9,150 meters where the ambient conditions are 32 kPa and negative 32 degrees Celsius. The pressure ratio across the compressor is 12 and the temperature at the turbine inlet is 1,400 Kelvin. Air enters the compressor at a rate of 60 kilograms per second and the jet fuel has a heating value of 42,700 kilojoules per kilogram. Assuming ideal operation for all components and constant specific heats of air at room temperature determine a the velocity of the exhaust gases, b the propulsive power developed, and c the rate of fuel consumption. I will begin with a diagram. So our center three components here are the same devices that make up our simple Brayton cycle. We have a compressor which is increasing the pressure of the gas prior to combustion, then a combustion chamber which adds energy to the gas which expands it, the turbine which harvests some power out of that expansion. But remember that our goal is no longer to produce power. Instead we want thrust which requires a lot of velocity. So we need to tack on a device at the end of our engine to convert that enthalpy that's left over after the air leaves the turbine into kinetic energy. That device that converts enthalpy into kinetic energy is a nozzle. Next we can consider the fact that the air is moving very quickly as it comes into the engine and we want to slow it down to actually go through the engine. And since we're slowing the fluid down we might as well convert that into enthalpy so that our compressor doesn't have to do as much work so that our turbine doesn't have to provide as much work and reduce the energy of the fluid before it goes into the nozzle to produce kinetic energy which is the whole goal. So we add a diffuser to convert kinetic energy at the inlet into enthalpy which we can take advantage of by reducing how much work the compressor needs. So these are our six state points. Next I would normally generate a table for all of our state point properties and I will I just don't want to do that yet. Instead I want us to think through an outline of what we actually need in order to solve this problem. So the first thing I ask for is the velocity of the exhaust gases. That's v6. Now in order to come up with v6 I'm going to have to perform an energy balance on the nozzle. The energy balance on the nozzle is going to require that I know enough information to fix state 5 and state 6 and I don't know enough information to fix state 5. I have a temperature at state 4 and I could figure out how much expansion there is from 4 to 5 if I knew the work of the turbine. And in order to know the work of the turbine I could figure out the work of the compressor which I could do by performing an energy balance on the compressor which would require that I know states 2 and 3. I have a pressure ratio across them so really all I need is state 2 to be fixed. For state 2 to be fixed I have to use our state 1 conditions which are 32 kPa and negative 32 degrees Celsius and how much the increase in energy of the diffuser affects the enthalpy of our air from 1 to 2. Therefore I'm going to have to analyze the process from 1 to 2 and then 2 to 3 in order to be able to analyze from 4 to 5 and then from 5 to 6. So I really need states 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 to be fully defined. And then for the propulsive power I'm going to have to take our force of thrust which was the mass flow rate of air through the engine which conveniently we know already times v6 which we will have from part a minus v1 which we know because our engine is traveling at a steady velocity and the air is stationary or at least we are treating the air as being stationary at an altitude of 9,150 meters. Therefore the velocity at state 1 is going to be 320 meters per second relative to the engine. So I know v1, I know mass flow rate and I will have v6 by the time we get around to calculating part b. Then for the rate of fuel consumption I'm going to be recognizing that we're assuming all of the heat going into the engine is coming from burning fuel and we are assuming that the combustion of the fuel emits heat and all of that heat 100% of it goes into the air. Therefore q dot in to our engine is going to be q dot fuel which means m dot air times specific u n is equal to m dot fuel times heating value of the fuel. So in order to answer that question for m dot fuel I'm going to need the mass flow rate of the air which I know the specific heat input to the engine which is going to come from an energy balance in the combustion chamber which means I have to know a state 4 anyway. So I do need all six state points to be fully defined and if we're assuming air is an ideal gas then our enthalpy of our air is only a function of temperature. Therefore I need all six temperatures in order to be able to answer the question so that's going to be our goal that is our intermediate goal before we get back to determining all of the things that the problem actually wants. I need all six temperatures. It's table time as promised. You'll notice that I put x's through v2, v3, v4, v5 because I don't actually care about those velocities. I'm going to be assuming that they are relatively small. So small in fact that they are essentially zero because when we're talking about kinetic energy terms we're talking about a function of velocity squared and relative to the bombacity of 320 meters per second squared a small velocity squared is going to be insignificant. I mean even if the velocity were a relatively quick moving five meters per second through the engine five meters per second squared is 25 compared to 320 meters per second squared which is something I can't calculate in my head but much much much larger than 25 so large in fact that the delta v is essentially just 320 meters per second. So all we really care about is v1 and v6 and then I'm trying to populate the temperatures so that I can determine all of the results of the energy balances on our various components like the compressor and therefore the turbine and the combustion chamber in order to answer part c and the nozzle and diffuser to determine how much the kinetic energy of the air is affecting our temperature in the case of the diffuser and how much the temperature change is going to say about our increase in kinetic energy in the case of the nozzle. So here we go. First up I have a temperature of negative 32 degrees Celsius at day one. I could try to add a 273.152 that in my head but that would be a laughable experience and since this is being recorded onto the internet I'm going to have my calculator do it so that we don't have to try to do that in our head. It's 127 John. 273 that's much more better. Okay okay since we have a safety net here I'm going to try to do it. Here we go 32 from 273 is like 4241.15. Survey says 241.15. Ah yeah to have more confidence in your mental math John. Okay now how do we get from 1 to 2? Now I'm imagining you saying to your phone or your computer the isentropic ideal gas equations we were told to assume constant specific heats around temperature which means that we are using the cold air standard to analyze this problem so I can say T2 over T1 is equal to P2 over P1 raised to the K minus 1 over K. For air at 300 Kelvin I know the K is 1.4 and because the isentropic efficiency of all of our devices is assumed to be 100% because the problem told us all the devices were ideal we can say this T2 that we're calculating is our state two temperature. So T2 is equal to T1 multiplied by P2 over P1 raised to the K minus 1 over K. Now let me pose a question to you what is P2 over P1? Did you just say 12? I understand why you said 12 it's because the pressure ratio across the compressor is 12 but note we're not analyzing the compressor we are analyzing the diffuser. The diffuser is not the compressor. This is a little bit of a change of pace because every other Brayton-Seckl problem that we've worked through has had the compression process from 1 to 2 but here the compressor is from 2 to 3 which means P3 over P2 is 12. P2 over P1 is not something that we have. So is there another way that I can come up with state 2 without using our isentropic ideal gas equation? And there is and we're going to have to go back to our roots. We need to perform an energy balance. Reason being we know how much the kinetic energy of the air is going to decrease and because the diffuser is operating ideally all of that kinetic energy decrease is going into the enthalpy of our fluid and for an ideal gas that enthalpy change directly corresponds to a temperature change because the enthalpy is only a function of temperature and because we know the specific heat capacity of the air is assumed to be constant we can substitute in Cp delta T for that delta H and we can then say the temperature change as a function of the change in velocity. Energy balance time. We have a diffuser which is assumed to be isentropic therefore we are treating it as being adiabatic because isentropic implies adiabatic I'm going to put a D on here for diffuser. We have an inlet condition at state 1 we have an outlet condition at state 2. I'm identifying a control volume then I can perform an energy balance on that control volume. Our energy balance if we want to skip a few is going to simplify down to E dot in is equal to E dot out. The rate of energy entering our diffuser could be described as Q dot in plus work dot in plus the sum in of m dot theta and the energy out could be described as Q dot out plus work dot out plus the sum out of m dot theta but we recognize that it's adiabatic so there's no heat transfer and we recognize that there's no opportunity for work. Furthermore there's only one entering state point it is state one there's only one exiting state point it is state two which means we're left with just m dot one theta one is equal to m dot two theta two our m dots are the same because m dot one is equal to m dot two which means that if I divide by that mass flow rate I'm left with theta one is equal to theta two and what is theta that's right it's enthalpy plus specific kinetic energy plus specific potential energy which means h one plus specific kinetic energy one plus specific potential energy one is equal to h two plus specific kinetic energy two plus specific potential energy two. Next I'm going to assume the change in potential energy is negligibly small that leaves me with h one plus the specific kinetic energy at state one which I represent as one half times velocity squared because remember total kinetic energy would be one half times mass times velocity squared specific kinetic energy would be total kinetic energy divided by mass so I'm going to write that as v one squared over two and I can do the same thing for state two and then I want to try to write this in terms of a delta h so that I can substitute in cp delta t so I'm going to group together my velocities on one side and my enthalpy's on the other and then because we are told to assume constant specific heats of room temperature I'm going to substitute in cp times t two minus t one and then on our left hand side I'm going to rewind the conversation back to up here remember we are assuming the velocity at states two three four and five is very small relative to 320 so small in fact that I'm treating it as basically zero so 320 squared minus a small number squared is basically the same as 320 squared therefore I am getting rid of v two so v one squared over two is equal to cp times t two minus t one now we are cooking with whatever it is that you cook with I have v one I have t one I can look up the cp of air at 300 kelvin therefore I can write t two is equal to v one squared over two times cp plus t one cool beans velocity is day one was 320 meters per second cp is 1.005 and t one was an astounding 241.15 kelvin right calculator it was right haha it was so why don't you try calculating t two on your own just pause the video give it a shot did you do it I'm gonna guess that quite a few of you got an incorrect answer and the reason for that is a very common mistake at this point would be for people to take 320 squared divided by two times 1.005 and then add to that 241.15 that doesn't look right does it no it does not the reason that this doesn't work is because meter squared per second squared is not the same as a kilojoule per kilogram they differ by a factor of a thousand so in order to actually add these together I need to perform a unit conversion in our first part of our calculation to get the meter squared per second squared and the kilojoules per kilogram to cancel so we have to actually keep track of our units 320 squared meters squared per second squared divided by 1.005 kilojoules per kilogram kelvin kelvin's what I want so I'm going to leave that my goal is going to be to get the kilograms and the meter squared and the second square to cancel out of the kilojoule and for that I'm going to break the kilojoule into its components a kilojoule is a thousand joules and a joule is a newton times a meter and a newton is a kilogram meter per second square the newton cancels newton kilogram cancels kilogram kilojoule cancels kilojoule joules cancels joules second squared cancels second squared and meters and meters cancel square meters and then the ipad scrolls out so this one thousand right here is where quite a few people mess up this calculation and it's fortunate that right now the answer that you got was probably high enough so as to raise concern but if you make the same mistake when we are analyzing across the nozzle it's not going to be quite as obvious we'll come back to that in probably about 20 minutes whatever the case though with this new unit conversion in place I get a much more reasonable answer of 292.095 kelvin and you know me I'm going to keep track of all those decimal places for now and I will point out that if we needed the pressure ratio across the diffuser we could hypothetically use the isentropic ideal gas equations to determine what that pressure is at state two but let's leave it for now we only are looking for temperatures right right so let's get to our compressor analyzing across the compressor is just going to be the isentropic ideal gas equation that we tried to use earlier t3 over t2 is equal to p3 over p2 raised to the quantity k-1 over k then t3 can be written as t2 times p3 over p2 raised to the k-1 over k we know t2 I got it on my calculator right here I know k I can look that up that's 1.005 and p3 over p2 is that 12 number that you totally convinced us we should try to use earlier but we didn't so I am going to take 292.095 multiplied by 12 and then I'm going to raise that to the power of 1.4 minus 1 divided by 1.4 and we get 594.103 which I don't actually need to write down here I'm gonna write that at the table 594.103 we'll probably read that correctly later fingers crossed now how do we get from three to four we don't we already have t4 it's 1400 kelvin I really should have written that earlier but I didn't that's one much more better 1400 kelvin cool how do I get from four to five well it's going to require an assumption that we had talked about in the previous video that assumption is that the work produced by the turbine is only going into a compressor it is not running an alternator it's not producing some shaft work to power something else it is only powering the compressor any additional extraction of energy is going to hurt our end goal which is producing thrust from the nozzle therefore to get from four to five we are saying the work out is equal to the work in I could write that on a power basis but when I divide by the same mass flow rate I'm left with specific work and for the specific work out we are looking at the turbine an energy balance on the turbine is going to simplify down to the change in enthalpy across the turbine and the energy balance of the compressor is going to yield specific work in is equal to h3 minus h2 because it is isentropic which implies adiabatic and then because of the assumption of constant specific heats I can write cp times t4 minus t5 is equal to cp times t3 minus t2 and then same cp so it cancels therefore I can write t5 is equal to t4 minus t3 plus t2 four minus three plus two let's see if I can remember that for like four seconds four minus three plus two four minus three plus two okay four minus three plus two I'm right that there so that I have reference I don't make the mistake of plugging in the wrong numbers we have 1400 minus 594.103 which I will grab as the result on my calculator then we are adding state point two I don't really know why I had those parentheses but we have them now 1097.99 is the temperature as the gas leaves the turbine and now that we have that we are trying to produce thrust so we are converting all that leftover enthalpy into kinetic energy for that we are going to have to set up an energy balance on our nozzle this time and being as that is so close to our diffuser I will write that to the right of our diffuser so we have a nozzle and I'm going to put a five here and a six here I'm going to draw the requisite fuzzy lines to indicate that it is adiabatic which is a result of the fact that we are treating it as isentropic I'm identifying the control volume for the purposes of using our energy balance and then I'm going to put an n on it or nozzle so just like the diffuser our energy balance is going to simplify all the way down to m dot five theta five is equal to m dot six theta six we have the same mass flow rate which means that our m dots cancel and then I'm neglecting changes in potential energy again therefore I can write h five plus v five squared over two is equal to h six plus v six squared over two and remember from earlier v five is very small relative to v six based on our assumption that v five is very small relative to everything else so small in fact that when I take v six squared v five is basically nothing because even v five squared is very small so we are going to say each five is equal to h six plus v six squared over two then again I want to write this as a delta h so that I can plug in cp delta t and because it is a delta h I'm writing that as cp delta t and then I have t five I'm looking for v six I have cp we have everything we need don't we oh no we don't know the temperature of the exhaust gases so what do we do ah what do we do well I mean we know the ambient conditions will that help us somehow I mean do you think it's reasonable to assume that the exhaust gases are exiting at negative 32 degrees Celsius probably not no but what we can assume is that the nozzle is expanding as much as it possibly can from the pressure on the high pressure side of the nozzle all the way down to the pressure on the outside of the nozzle and that pressure is 32 kPa so the nozzle is expanding from whatever the pressure is as the air exits the turbine down to 32 kPa well for that I could describe the isentropic process across the nozzle as t six over t five is equal to p six over p five raised to the k minus one over k so t six could be calculated by taking t five multiplied by the pressure ratio across the nozzle raised to the k minus one over k now do I know the pressure ratio across the nozzle well I know the pressure at state six and I could figure out p five I mean I know enough to get there first of all I'll ask is it reasonable to assume that the pressure ratio across the turbine is one over 12 because the compressor increased by 12 should we use one over 12 to go across the turbine no we should not in the previous problems we had been able to do that because we had to end at the same pressure because we had a ql box that was operating isobarically so we had to end at the same pressure that the inlet air to the compressor was at here we don't have that same luxury because we don't actually care about p five what we care about is extracting only as much work as is required to operate the compressor so whatever pressure ratio is required to do that is going to be what happens so in order to come up with p five I have to come up with p four and then I could use the isentropic ideal gas equations to get across the turbine because I know t four and t five and in order to get to p four I have to know p three because the combustion chamber is assumed to be isobaric and in order to get to p three I would just take p two multiplied by 12 which brings us back to the diffuser if I can figure out what the pressure is at state two I can multiply that by 12 to get p three and therefore p four and then I could use the isentropic ideal gas equation across the turbine to get to p five which I can use with the isentropic ideal gas equation on the nozzle to get to get to t six and then I could use the energy balance on the nozzle to calculate v six did you follow that so in order to answer t six I have about four intermediate steps here I need to come up with p two which is going to require I add a column to our table that's annoying I'm not even going to bother drawing it all pretty because this is the disgruntled column what a shame as a general rule I would encourage you to come up with only the properties that need and in most cases in the previous analyses that we had performed we only cared about q in work in q out and work out and that had only required the temperature change in the case of the cold air standard with the enthalpy change in the case of the non cold air standard but here when we are talking about energy balances under diffusers and nozzles and therefore kinetic energy terms we are going to need pressures as a general rule of thumb so get into the habit of calculating pressures again when we are talking about used for turbojet applications so I know 32 is the pressure at state one and state six I get from one to two with the isentropic ideal gas equation I get from two to three but multiplying by 12 I get to four because p four is equal to p three I get across the turbine with the isentropic ideal gas equations and then I use p five and p six to get t six which I use to calculate v six which I use to calculate the thrust and the power the propulsive efficiency just for fun and then I can determine q in by knowing t four and t three and determine the mass rate of fuel let's get to it at state two I have a temperature and I know p one and t one therefore I can write p two over p one is equal to t two over t one raised to the k over k minus one now I have a terrible propensity for screwing up that exponent so I always like to have my isentropic ideal gas relations handy so that I can just say this this right here is what I want and not have to try to move the exponent around in my head because as you all know my head cannot be trusted when it comes to doing mental algebra so by double checking here we know t two over t one raised to the k over k minus one gives us p two over p one then I can jump back to our calculation and say p two then is going to equal 32 multiplied by t two which was 292 which I will scroll up for divided by 241.15 raised to the power of 1.4 divided by 0.4 p two then is equal to 62.5865 and I really don't have to write these down because they're only intermediate steps but I'm going to do that anyway just to make sure that if you were trying to follow along with this you have some hope of keeping track of what I'm doing then I'm going to multiply that number by 12 and I get to this which is also the same as this and then for our isentropic ideal gas equations we are going to jump down to wherever we analyze the turbine and write p five over p four is equal to t five over t four raised to the k over k minus one so that number multiplied by t five over t four t five was 1097.99 divided by 1400 raised to the power of 1.4 divided by this for final subtracted and I get 320.856 so the pressure ratio across the turbine is really only about two actually that that is an interesting side tangent here I'm going to pull you over to a chrome tab and I'm going to see if I can find a cross section of a turbojet. Okay this one will work okay ignore all the numbers for now can you actually see the whole thing yeah you can this is just the numbers that are used for reference on the Wikipedia article for jet engines this is a turbojet this is a cross section of an actual turbojet I mean this is still an artist's rendering of a turbojet but it's still a better cross section than the crude system diagram that we're using to keep track of our state points here so the compression process is the process from right about here to right here and in this case the compressor is way bigger than the turbine right look at how few blades there are in the turbine it's rotors and staters there's so few blades relative to the compressor and why is that well as we just demonstrated even for this example problem the pressure ratio across our expansion process was only about two but the pressure ratio across the compressor was 12 I mean 12 is a much bigger number than two and theoretically it would take many more stages of rotor than stator than rotor than stator to come up with a ratio of 12 especially considering that it is a much more adverse direction to have to go in I will point out while we're here this doesn't really have a diffuser as shown it's using presumably a little fan out front or prop but this part right here is our nozzle and while we're going down this rabbit hole let me pose this question remember when we were analyzing nozzles in thermal one we showed them with a converging cross sectional area so even in our drawing here for the energy balance on the nozzle I can pop you over to the iPad again we're drawing this as a converging cross sectional area and in this diagram here it is a diverging cross sectional area this cross sectional area is smaller than this one which means that they're getting further apart how can that still be a nozzle well that dear friends is due to the fact that this is presumably operating with flow that is fast enough so as to be compressible and for compressible flow a nozzle is actually a diverging cross sectional area for incompressible flow a nozzle would be a converging cross sectional area is backwards for incompressible and compressible flow like everything that's why compressible fluid mechanics is basically a class in and of itself because it's everything that you know from incompressible fluid mechanics and except backwards for most of it that's indicating here that this is a high velocity for our purposes we typically use a mock number of about 0.3 is the threshold between incompressible and compressible so anytime the air is moving at a velocity higher than a 30% of the speed of sound through air with those conditions we treat it as being compressible and for our purposes here that's going to be probably only about 200 meters per second so if we have a higher velocity than that then that's going to be treated as compressible flow that's all outside the scope of what we're doing right here right now but i thought you might be interested it is a bit of a fun fact after all so if we jump back to the iPad and we get on with our isentropic ideal gas equation from 5 to 6 i can use that pressure ratio across the nozzle to determine a temperature which i can then use to calculate v6 and under most circumstances i would advocate leaving everything symbolically as long as he can but here it's kind of moot especially considering that we have so many running errors already so i'm going to take t5 t5 was 1097 multiplied by p6 over p5 which is 32 divided by 320 and change raised to the power of k minus over k minus 1 over k this time 0.4 minus 1 divided by close parentheses divided by 1.4 that means t6 is 568.268 that is the temperature of the exhaust gases which as we suspected is much higher than t1 then from our energy balance we can calculate v6 v6 is going to be the square root of cp times t5 minus t6 and again why don't you try that on your own pause the video here if you want give that a shot did you do it did you remember the thousand very common for people to forget the fact that meters per second squared and kilojoules per kilogram differ by a factor of thousand and here we are taking that thousand inside the radical so it's really going to be whatever the square root of a thousand is so we're out of a thousand so if you had forgotten the unit conversion thank you calculator your answer would be off by a factor of 32 would be unhelpful so i'm going to take 1.005 multiplied by the difference in temperature between five and six which is 1097.99 1097.99 1097.99 minus t6 which is 568.268 and that is in kelvin and i forgot my units on the 1.005 what was i doing ah the decimals i know the dark period in our calculation get it the decimals up periods uh-huh kilojoules per kilogram kelvin kelvin cancels kelvin but kilojoules per kilogram even inside of a radical does not yield meters per second so i have to convert into meters squared per second squared when i convert from kilojoules per kilogram into meters squared per second squared and then take a square root then the result is going to be in meters per second i will cancel the case while we're here so for that i'm going to take the kilojoule and i'm going to break it into its components kilojoules a thousand joules a joule is a newton meter and a newton is a kilogram meter per second squared and then if i have enough room whoo-hoo i'm going to take that entire quantity to the one half power and then kilojoules is going to cancel kilojoules joules cancels joules newtons cancels newtons kilograms cancels kilograms and i'm left with meters times meters divided by second squared which when taken to the one half power yields meters per second let's do that now 1.005 no come on i've been cooperating here multiplied by the quantity 1097 which i will scroll up for for precision purposes 568.268 multiplied by a thousand and then that entire quantity is raised to the one half power and we get 729.639 as our velocity at state 6 that doesn't seem high enough equation yielded i wouldn't expect it there to be a two in there because it's a kinetic energy calculation and there's always a two oh there it is okay i got all distracted writing cp delta t instead of delta h never got to write divided by two which means that when i wrote this equation i forgot to multiply by two because we would have had two times cp times t5 minus t6 before we took the square root of both sides so this should all be multiplied by two which is unfortunate because we're out of space over here so i will have to to scooch this on over scooch this on over and write a two out front so let's try that again we had two times come on calculator two times 1.005 times the change in temperature and then we multiplied by a thousand to get the inner conversion correct then we took that to the one half power so earlier when i posed the question did you calculate the number correctly and you said yeah i totally did and technically you didn't if you followed along with my algebra because that was velocity that was too small it's a little bit more but i was expecting okay one thousand thirty one point eight six and our velocity is day one was 32 we knew that already right no it's 320 32 i was thinking of the pressure okay 320 to 1031.86 is a much a larger change in velocity which will produce a larger thrust which is going to be the thrust required to travel at 320 meters per second which is very quick that's why i was expecting a higher velocity at state six anyway now that we have all six temperatures and both velocity one and velocity six we can move on to actually answering the questions and for that i think i'm going to open a new page here so let's start by calculating v6 well we know it already it's 1031 186 look at that we did it go us then i had asked for propulsive power but just for fun here let's calculate the thrust first the thrust is going to be the mass flow rate of air to the engine multiplied by v6 minus v1 and let's say we wanted that in kilonewtons so i'm going to take the mass flow rate of air to the engine which was 60 kilograms per second and then i'm going to multiply by the difference between 1031.86 and 320 and then i'm going to start with my destination and work backwards a kilonewton is a thousand newtons a newton is a kilogram meter per second squared and let's see where we are seconds and seconds cancel second squared meters cancels meters kilograms cancels kilograms newtons cancel newtons and we're left with kilonewtons so 60 multiplied by this number minus 320 divided by a thousand hey look we divided by a thousand again it's interesting it's almost as though the theme of this problem 42.71 kilonewtons i know i didn't actually ask for that but let's imagine that i did hey we did it okay then i actually wanted propulsive power i'm pretty sure yeah i actually want to propulsive power and let's say i want kilowatts i mean that probably seems reasonable for propulsive power i'm going to take the thrust force multiplied by the velocity of the engine which i could write as mass flow rate times v6 minus v1 multiplied by the velocity of the engine or i could just take 42.71 kilonewtons and multiply it by 320 meters per second in that velocity of the engine calculation we are using the velocity relative to the ground here by the way that's why it's 320 zero because we are knowing no longer describing velocity from the reference frame of from the engine's perspective and then a kilowatt could be described as a kilojoule per second and a kilojoule is a kilonewton times a meter which means that we are going to end up with an answering kilowatts if we just multiply this number by our velocity and had jumped to directly calculating the propulsive power instead of calculating the thrust force first then you would have had just taken 60 multiplied by the difference between 1031.86 and 320 then you would have multiplied by 320 and then you would have multiplied by 1000 because you need to account for the fact the meter square per second squared differs from kilojoules per kilogram by a factor of a thousand anyway we get 13,367 excuse me 667.8 kilowatts that there is a powerful engine so large in fact that we're probably going to have a very large fuel flow rate to be able to power that engine which leads us into part c where i had asked for the flow rate of fuel now i will point out that we don't actually have a volumetric flow rate versus mass flow rate defined here but i will say that generally the fuel flow rate for aircraft is described as a mass flow rate instead of a volumetric flow rate and furthermore we don't know the density of the jet fuel that we're using here we only know its heating value so we couldn't even calculate a volumetric flow rate if we wanted to so mass flow rate is the name of the game for part c and again the way that we get there is by assuming that all of the heat emitted by burning the fuel goes directly into the air and that increase in energy of the air and that occurs on a 100 percent efficient basis all of the energy from the fuel goes into the air none of it is wasted out the sides of the engine or anything like that then i could describe q dot fuel as m dot fuel times the heating value of the fuel and q dot in as m dot air i almost said m dot in that would have been inaccurate multiplied by a specific q in to our engine and the specific q in into our engine is going to occur in the combustion chamber and if i were to set up a an energy balance in the combustion chamber that would simplify down to h4 minus h3 and then because of the assumption of constant specific heats i can say m dot air times cp times t4 minus t3 and that is equal to m dot fuel times heating value of the fuel therefore m dot fuel is going to be this entire quantity divided by the heating value of the fuel doesn't look at all like the word fuel job fuel still still know third time's charm fuel there you got it then i know m dot air is 60 kilograms per second pretty sure yep cp of air is 1.005 kilojoules per kilogram kelvin t4 minus t3 is 1400 minus t3 was 594.103 and we are dividing by the heating value of the fuel which was given as 42,740,700 kilojoules per kilogram i have some unit simplification here kilograms cancels kilograms kilojoules cancels kilojoules kelvin cancels kelvin and i'm left with kilograms per second and it's important to note here that the kilograms listed in this calculation are not all the same in the massel rate of air that's kilograms of air per second and in the heating value of the fuel that's kilojoules per kilogram of fuel so the relevant kilograms that are cancelled are air because this specific heat capacity of the air is a description of the amount of energy per unit mass of the air kelvin so the kilograms of air cancel the kilograms of air i'm left with kilograms of fuel per second so that will be 60 multiplied by 1.005 multiplied by 1400 minus 594.103 divided by 42,700 and i get a syntax error which is to be expected at this point and i get 1.13807 and that's the mass flow rate of the fuel so that's everything that i was explicitly asked for but just for fun let's also calculate a propulsive efficiency remember that propulsive efficiency is the turbojet equivalent of our thermal efficiency the only difference is we are taking propulsive power divided by q.in instead of network out or net power out excuse me and i had already described q.in because q.in is mass flow rate of air multiplied by a specific q in which is h4 minus h3 which becomes cp times t4 minus t3 so i'm going to take m dot of air times cp times delta t across the combustion chamber as the denominator and the propulsive power that we calculated already as my numerator so that's going to be 1300 excuse me 13,667.8 kilowatts and then i'm dividing by m dot air 60 kilograms per second times 1.005 kilojoules per kilogram kelvin times the delta t across our combustion chamber which was this delta t right here let's see what cancels so far that's kelvin kelvin cancels kelvin kilograms cancels kilograms and a kilowatt you'll remember is kilojoules per second i would normally write that out but i'm actually out of room here okay okay i yield i'll just bring this down i was just about to say i'm not gonna write it this time because i'm out of room but but this is forever and as you all know you do not stand for simplifications what i'm talking about forever kilojoules kilojoules seconds seconds and i'm left with a unitless proportion which is what i wanted so here we go 13,667.8 divided by the quantity 60 times 1.005 times 1400 minus 594.103 and i get a propulsive efficiency of 28.13 percent


All right, I'd like to welcome everyone to the planning commission meeting for Essex town of Essex. This is January 25th 2024 and a few weeks since we've been here in this room. So it's a new year new new new night Same old night. Sorry Shoes here Yeah, yep Okay, so I Don't see any Call for additions or changes to the agenda this evening Correct Then I guess we're gonna play by the rules a little bit. I'm gonna like motion to accept the agenda as presented To lay motion by Georgia seconded by shoe all those in favor of accepting the agenda as presented John mangan Motion carries Six zero so first item next item on our agenda at this stage is public comment Before I do that I would just like to ask anybody who is going to be offering any comment to us this evening to and any of these items to please stand raise your right hand and We'll swear you in for the night Do you swear that any testimony you're gonna present this evening is truthful to the best of your abilities? This is the time This and I do will suffice Online can I know you hit your hand up? Did you want to give a verbal approval agreement? Okay, I just wanted saw your hand in one ignore you Okay with that Gonna open the floor for public comments Please be wreck waiting to you are recognized by me before you offer anything and Let's keep it to items that are not on the agenda and things that are on the agenda We'll have opportunity to discuss when we come to them. So with that is there anyone that would like to make a comment Sir he was in the room first can go ahead The reason for my comments today is to add kennel to the rvd-1 use of zoning areas is to allow for a second It be built in the Boston court development Both there are four warehouse spaces that are being corrected there and our Or redesign before correction. So the opportunity Really important to me Currently it's not known for that use That is a quick introduction. I thought to create a scape and make last year after I've been here and Not carpet baggers from out of the state do that here and work together all the That I tend employees right now more in the summer of Looking to Retain our employees and the change owner Charitable donations are about the reason for this site why it's important for us Business don't require a loading box that Other space around it People high trees Is a growing community here in Asif Milston before moving their hand going back to work Originally when we started this project So capacity in the area has decreased And it's it's a needed service. We can also provide jobs and tax revenue Our jobs pay $20 an hour as a minimum and up we have to pay time off other benefits soon to offer health care for Okay, things like that We have felt for okay already and we have career and part-time short-term opportunities available for people Last comment. This is the right location for the area for our business as well There's nothing like this in the immediate area here in Essex As expected just down the road like I mentioned and there's just lots of daily traffic on highway 15 going by in and out of Burlington every day I know that a lot of people live in Jericho under hill you to that area For us, it's an opportunity to kind of split our client base in half kind of a watery Richmond side of things and then more of a Burlington side of things. So there is a self-interest there, obviously But I think that it's one of the best interest of the community. So thank you for your time I'll leave some copies of my notes with you. Thank you very much Sharon or Catherine just more precisely where exactly is he proposing so I'm not sure the term that he'd used It's across the street off Allen Martin Drive. It's when you come off Sand Hill Road. Yeah, basically That first one right there. Okay Okay, thank you Thank you. Thank you, Dustin. I didn't you might have said this Did you mention public comment, right? Oh I did not. Thank you. I completely forgot about that. So this is also the opportunity is thank you, Sharon To provide comments both public and from the planning commission for items for the consent agenda item Which is a boundary line? between two lines on West sleepy Hollow Road So with that I would also Ask for comments again. Thank you. You're right there Paula Actually, you're here first. So if you want to move up by Catherine to see the screen better, you're welcome to We have an open seat tonight, so yep Yes, at this point Paula you are a voting member. Yes Okay back to the thing Ken your hand is up, please Thank you I'm gonna take it down. There we go. So I just wanted to bring to the your attention and Anybody else who's interested as attention that h518, which is the bill in the House of Representatives For our charter change has passed the house Is now in the Senate? It contains the DRB specification and currently the date specified is still January the 1st 2025 So I would like to encourage Mission if it wants to be involved in the transition, which I would think it would be Maybe come up with a plan for how to transition to the DRB Something as simple as suggesting that the select board appoint the DRB. Let's say by July 1st So they could start on July 1st Set a cut-off after which any applications going to the zoning board or to the planning commission start going to the I'm sorry You do Keep talking, please Constituted self have its first organizational meeting in July like all other commissions and committees set a cut-off date After which any applications that would have gone to the zoning board or the planning commission instead go to the DRB That would give you folks some six months to close up any Applications in the manner that they started and the DRB has plenty of time for you to participate I would hope participate in the training. I assume some of you folks would probably be on the DRB So that might not be even the very necessary But just having a good plan in place so that by January 1st 2025 the DRB is up and running and ready to go That's it. Thanks. I'm pulling from the tape, but I like to That would be great Thanks Ken Is there anyone else that would like to offer comment this evening on the this includes the planning commissioners on the consent agenda Or any other items? It's not on the planning not on the agenda this evening Hearing none We're gonna move on to the consent agenda item We had no discussion points So I look for a motion to Approve or deny the consent agenda What does look like we have our In discussions we'll invite you to be able to participate in discussions, but because we have the seven you will be a Non-voting member tonight. Thank you, Paul So I'd like a motion for the consent agenda. I move we approve the consent agenda I'll second that move by shoe seconded by Trevor Any additional discussion? All those in favor? Motion carries seven zero Onward next item. We have is business items capital plan 2024 planning commission work plan and then Minutes It's written as approval of the November 9th and November 16th minutes Okay Who's gonna be discussing with us the capital plan?  No, no, no, no, no Okay, you have two minutes each All right, so I am actually gonna start us off so the Four of us are part of the capital What we called team now Working group whatever so We've been meeting For the year to talk about the capital budget So thought it'd be great a great thing to have everybody here So I think normally it's in the director of public works Discuss the budget And also keep in mind too, it's a five-year plan that we have much more specifics for a Current fiscal year than we would five years road from it But there there are projects that you'll see in the plan you know going out five years and And the reason why the we're having this discussion is that as a State statute allows the planning commission actually says that a plan And we're allowed to have a capital budget The town plan I you know really should be part of the guiding document for what how the town In your packet I included the word clouds from the town plan Just as a way to remember what we heard from the public You know really what our town plan is based on what we heard from the public about what they In our town how old they want to see us grow or not grow and Just keeping that in mind At that is sort of my a little spiel I'm gonna turn it over to I think mostly Dan at this point to talk through more of that details Okay, thank you Catherine. Thanks for taking the time this evening I can walk you through the capital plan a little bit especially for fiscal year 25 There's you know a lot of kind of larger subgroups, you know buildings highways vehicles equipment park facilities Stormwater projects a wide variety of things that happen in a capital plan like this Okay, can I interrupt just for one moment? I apologize, but I don't I've never met you. Sorry. I'm Dan Roy I'm not financed. Okay. Thanks, Dan. My apologies Everybody to speak up Okay, I can do that as well Okay, thanks. Yeah, um So as of the end of fiscal year 24, we're anticipating overall for our capital projects fund a balance of three million dollars Going forward with that our fiscal year 25 revenues are going to be about 484,000 generated from capital tax $470,000 of transfers from the operating budget And then there's a line for about 1.6 million of grants and interest revenue and other things like that The grant revenue item is connected to the the church of Latter-day Saints upon conversion project So that's you know really is a big impact on this overall budget for fiscal year 25 The fiscal year 25 estimated spending is almost three million dollars Most of which about 1.7 million is that project was which I just mentioned which is Offset to a great degree by the grant revenue The Ending point for that fiscal year 25 capital projects fund balance is 2.85 million so combining all the grant rev all the Combined revenues and netting against the expenses There's a difference of about 135,000 dollars that the capital projects funds would be reduced by During the course of fiscal year 25 Obviously, there's a lot of spending in other areas primarily replacing vehicles and equipment for fire department public works things like that continuing with payments on on that for Vehicles that we own that are on multiple year payment plans things of that nature But they the biggest item in there is the stormwater project for the upon conversion To expand the look to fiscal year 26 through 29 We take a preliminary look at the new town municipal complex Costing out possible road additions and a fire department building as well These are all very preliminary early estimates of costs For fiscal year 26 through 29. We're trying to show them as kind of in and out which is certainly an accelerated plan to to You know have such big projects occur, but we wanted to Try and show those amounts netting out and and be able to analyze other aspects of the budget Long term without those elements kind of clouding up that picture Just to kind of continue with fiscal year 26 through 29 we're still Expecting to use a three cent tax rate for capital tax revenue The budget here still reflects $470,000 of operating transfers which has been a Legacy number from the most recent fiscal years Most of that number is made up of supporting our vehicles and equipment expenses as I mentioned for fire and and public works On an annual basis overall we expect to generate 1.15 million of revenues Toward the capital project plan and With the impending reappraisal, you know that we know there's going to be a change in how the capital tax is how much it generates and You know we'll have to wait and see what kind of effect that has on the overall budget Long term for fiscal year 26 and 29 after that reappraisal work is done for the town So that's kind of a quick synopsis of you know Where short term and long term kind of lie? I don't know if you have any Questions based off of that And I can also project Without opening documents and getting into looking for details and so forth. I'm just curious where or what? Other than the potential municipal offices and fire up a station. What if any? Capital might be targeted towards the ETC Area because I know we've talked about needing different things Before any of that can really go is it do we have any of that infrastructure on the target list? They're talking about water sewer lines are We just got bids in we will be constructing a 12-inch main from Billy Butler on Which would be the Northwest really side of 15 from Billy Butler all the way to Essex Way We're looking for that project to begin break ground probably Late April early May This will provide that 12-inch water line between those two rows along that side Providing the additional flows that we will need in that area to accommodate the growth and the height of growth that The density that we want in that area As of right now We do have some sewer updates and upgrades that we are doing in the area We'll need to take place as part of Any build out out there? We do not have any Scoping or plan as of yet to look at suing that a new portion of the town center that we're looking to Have developed in the future, but it's on the radar I think the next step we're going to be looking at will be looking to looking at the allocation That's the finite element up there and that's going to definitely drive what takes place Not only in the town center, but the rest of this That will be a priority moving forward in the future Okay Because that that will sort of help guide you know when we can dig into you know really Making the changes that we're looking for in the town center area It's it's the enabled into the primary enablers What about Pioneer drive area and stuff like that has that been mitigated I may be I may be missing projects here and so forth, but we've had an ongoing issue for Decade or two With pioneer drive and I may miss something we've got the folks that are not pioneer drive Pinecrest We had the development going in out there and there's been a lot, you know Challenges along that is that infrastructure and stuff at a solid point. Yes. Yes. I believe we're talking about the The new pump station that went in Yes, so if y'all remember we we had the developer pay for and install Gravity manhole out towards the edge of our right-of-way As deep as he possibly could in order to facilitate picking up as much of The pinecrest Painesville area With gravity sewer in the future we do have old plans that could be dusted off and Re-looked at to come up with a soaring project in there, but again That would definitely be based off of board approval and the need of the residents I'm just trying to dust off the big hot topics from the last few years It's awful dusty, so I'm not gonna stop one another thing related to Somewhat the ETC next area, but I think it's really for the whole town We have a pretty old bike and pedestrian plan That's all shared with the city and so we're hoping through the regional planning Commission Do a date or right of that and That will give us a better idea of priority sidewalks trails that we want to Funded I think we though that'll be a public process that and hopefully that would be starting Are there any? I'm gonna push back to your direction a little bit Are there any of the projects that you you went through a general outline, but are there any of the project you specifically want to put on our radar? That maybe didn't start with us or start with development. Is there anything that you feel is something we have to accommodate in planning initiatives and development reviews and so forth this I'd say the town excuse me the town center is going to be an important one and it's You know the land that the town acquired 8090 upper main street It's obviously the part of the goal there is the municipal facilities town offices fire station Potentially library community space recreation space stuff like that But it's it's our our idea is that it's more than that. It's really kind of the Hope for a town center. It's going to facilitate development up there help make it a vibrant place So I think as you get into the ETC next plan and look at the zoning that ETC next recommends That's going to be instrumental and and what can happen on that property not just the municipal side of things But also any other private element for the private partnerships and getting into the planning about what What are some of the goals of the town plan that the community wants around? Density of homes Commercial space stuff like that. How do we tie that into recreation space? Whether it's those sidewalks that connect elsewhere trails that lead up to Indian Brook trails just on that property Green space. I think that that's going to be central to the whole bigger town center area Developing and coming really the hub for the community Other than that I think yes sidewalks After mentioned the bike head plan and perhaps an update there But sidewalks roads a lot of the capital that we have now is maintaining Replacing heavy equipment maintaining roads the water sewers separate item, but Yeah, a lot of a lot of what you see in here is is what we have already Of that town center stuff is going to be some of the sidewalks and trails. That's going to be what's next All you had a question Processed what you would do with the existing facilities that you So for this building at the city of Essex Junction has a right of first refusal on it if we do go to sell it We haven't you know, we've talked very high level about how do we fund new facilities? What happens with these facilities? Best guess at this point as we probably look to sell some of the stuff that were we would I think Whether that holds up. I mean that is people mentioned should we should we lease it out? Keep a revenue source in there B. That's another I was a building of land lording and I was thinking more of things like the Arming fire department There it makes a statement. Yeah, the library. I think is It is this beautiful building. I I think that would warrant more Conversation about if and when that moves or the library moves what happens to that building We have given some thought to the fire station and you want to Yeah, if it if fire does Have a new facility elsewhere. I didn't want to construct it in the in our in our property. They're at 80 90 Obviously right next door to our buildings there Likely move would be to expand some of our operations into that building and repurpose it both for public works admin offices Things are getting pretty tight over in our little white building there on the Essex greens The old library. Yeah, the old library and then use some of the bays as Of our trucks or for mechanics Bay Basically stay intact Right I'm gonna date myself. They put the ice ring back. We put the skating rink back It was right immediately to the left of the fire station as you're looking at them. Oh, yeah Anyways, ring down on Foster Road to escape the foster road has a couple of rinks on That was always easy to walk over to Okay, quick any other commissioners questions Josh John Okay, all right, so I have one question for you. Yes Thinking ahead to next year's planning for the capital plan and budget or any way that you would want to be involved more or See updates more. I would actually suggest we put that on our discussion points for the planning Commission the revised planning Commission Duties to find out if that would be more appropriate. I think if there is an opportunity to focus Speaking off the cuff here that if there's not if there's an ability to be somewhat synchronistic with the capital projects What we're looking to do we get the capital we do the zoning or we do the zoning and get the capital whatever needs to come first but it just seems like that would be more of a an Opportunity to be more in sync and maybe get things a little more efficiently push through Well, I just have the question so there's this fund right now with three million dollars in it and it's gradually going to be spent down by the 2029 what's how do you Anticipate replenishing that in the future. Yeah, so I mean the the immediate answers are Addressing the capital tax rate when reappraisal happens so that's kind of a stone that's left unturned at this point and Obviously the reappraisal could have you know a significant impact on on the revenue line there there is always the option of Incorporating operating transfers from the regular fiscal year budgets It's not really an avenue I would like to increase because I think it's better to have them as two distinct pools So, you know, those are kind of the two main drivers Obviously, we're trying to keep some degree of interest revenue in there And then often with a lot of the public works programs, you know, we try and Find grant or loan forgiveness opportunities wherever we can as well. So those are the immediate channels to try and Yeah, thank you. Sure I can elaborate on that. We have presented like board with this information the past couple of years When we lost the S extension tax base last year, that was about 41% of our tax base. So We we presented a proposed increase to the capital tax the select board pursued going from two cents up to three cents, this is where is that now that the voters were very supportive of that We've talked about increasing More than that, but as Dan said the the idea is to wait to see what happens at the reappraisal They had mentioned the revenue side of things just to give him some credit Credit investing some more of the town's money and some higher yielding accounts That's generating quite a bit more interest than we ever have in the past the recent past impact fees is another one the Fire departments doing an impact fee study. So that might help generate some revenue on the fire side of things That's that's always an option Recreation has impact fees that might be due for an update Okay the good You Go ahead Is there so do you have a target? Date in establishing As far as building facilities Not really I think that's Catherine and I were just talking about this this afternoon We're getting ready to do kind of spend this next year doing a lot of planning work and figuring out What can go up there? Trying to put some some cost estimates better cost estimates to things already have some cost estimates But then figuring out, you know, how do we pay for those things? I don't Catherine if you want to speak more to the planning process No, I think I think you heard to say We need to do good planning first Point you probably Putting change with ET I think we need to have a discussion on how quickly did people want to see it you haven't really had a lot of comfort parcels with the Hearing like let's do a or wait. Let's take some time and think this through Believe and I think it would be great to do it sooner rather than later What goes there? Good impact Is due to the best you Perhaps So the Yeah, and that that's part of the Yeah, yeah Definitely can see that side of the road having interconnected Properties Daniel To good. I think we're good. Thank you very much for coming in. Thank you Bring snacks next time All right, let's roll into our 2024 work plan All right So I will pull this up on the screen But I I do have a couple extra copies of people would like to see it. Okay, so So this was my stab at just thinking about what what I see in the future In the community development plate as well You know some of this was Information that are things that we had that were on the work plan last year And the work plan, you know included more than just one year So there was kind of an overlap with multiple years. So that's some of it is why and I I think you know looking at what what I have up here the first thing is the Town plan update Really the heavy lifting is done with that. But that doesn't really need to probably take a whole lot of time But the next thing Is that the voters will get a third chance to weigh in on it on town meeting day? so You know, I think we could consider how to get the word out about the town plan and supporting the town plan and That's a worth worth the discussion at least at part of the planning commission There's not that much time before town meeting here Do we know where town meeting is going to be town meeting is at the middle school. Okay, and town meeting is actually Really on Tuesday, which is all it's all by Australian ballot this year So there are no floor votes, you know nothing nothing is being voted on on that Monday night It's an informational meeting that they're having a or we're having a An open house Format before where there'll be tables so we could set up a planning commission We need a development table there and just to let people see the town plan Is this on Monday Monday Monday before it will that be at the middle school that's at the middle schools I think we're booked at the middle school for the next. I don't know how many years ever many years So Then the second thing You know speaking of what Ken Signorello brought up the DRB transition That really does need to be at the forefront of Everything and whether or not it's gonna take I have it listed here taking the whole year whether or not it will take the whole year I don't know but it's something to get started on right away and you know figure figure that out Now I already have been doing a little bit of work on that reaching out to some folks who have had experience doing a transition Including the city, you know, they recently Transitioned over to DRB. So I had a meeting with Regina Mahoney that their city manager this week to talk about it Talked with the regional planning commission Dusty and I have done some talking well and really wanting to pull in the zoning board into those discussions So it's not just the planning talking about it. So we're gonna have it all So we've had a brief conversations with their chair Nick Martin He'd have more discussions with them and try to solidify a plan including the zoning board I'd like to maybe take that if the commission agrees at least as a starting point for us to come up with a not necessarily a full draft, but a draft draft of The way we might go about this and you know to recognize Ten's points from earlier. There's this is really all on our discussion plate already So like to be able to bring back to this commission and the zoning board as much as they're able to join us and maybe even do it in a group session of combined workshop to present this so that we can then present our thoughts and You know, maybe some guidance up to the select board because I believe that's where the actual decision has to come from right and they are looking to You all in the zoning board and staff and to make the recommendation how to go about this too you know my understanding is that You know the final decision like you said is theirs, but they're looking for recommendations and guidance Go about it Well, so what's going to happen with the planning and zoning go out of existence and the DRB Half of that's true So that the planning commission stays that the zoning board goes away and the development review board takes the place of the zoning board, but also takes the Development review side of the planning commission's job. So any sort of you know site plans or subdivisions With waivers that would go go to the DRB for the planning commission would do Discipline To that I guess this will be a part of the workshop or discussion With this body being a combined You know group for the planning commission right now is there a talk of you know folks transitioning to the DRB or you know Is there an opportunity for discussion about that? Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's got to be a big part of the discussion There's no we don't have a roadmap not yet. We don't have a roadmap. We don't have an expectation that you know I Would like to think that anybody who's currently serving a role on the zoning or planning Would have the opportunity to choose to choose to continue I guess would be the way to continue in the capacity that they're most interested in but then that's I think Part of the recommendation that we have to make to the select board Or we ought to make to the sling board. I don't think we have to but I think that's in our best interests Well, and typically the planning Commission in in that Framework deals more with long-term planning Legislative Judicial right Yeah, continue to do So, I mean, I think this is all it will all be my expectation is that this group in Conjunction with the collaboration with the zoning board will come up with a proposal of What we feel the Planning Commission makeup the DRB makeup the duties the expectations the flow so forth should be or could be And using contacts outside of this group and just come up with a recommendation Well, if not Devon if not that then how right how can that communication because that I think will be part of that but that's but I agree. I think it's ideal to have overlap There's a significant amount of domain knowledge that really exists that may or may not, you know Have a role in the in the upcoming Reformation So if I may I think there are actually Complications with having people Volunteer on both right the the point of splitting the DRB from the planning Commission is to have a Division of labor that doesn't put anyone in a position where they are making the plans and executing them At the same time right and so like it gets fuzzy, you know one may be sure To three how where does that line get cut and when does it become? Kind of redundant to you know or Undermine the entire objective of dividing the groups anyway Some degree the objective of division isn't clear. So I mean the the objective right now is May also have to be clarified But the fact is that it will happen at this point with legislative final legislative approval It's it's it's a done deal. So now it's what it what are the two group? What are the two groups? Responsible for where's the division of responsibilities and I mean I'm not sure I quite agree with the fact that we that a person can't do Both hats because we do that now. We've been doing it in you know going back From now to whenever this began and it's been successful. So I actually I'm a slightly different No, I think the knowledge of how the rules that are developed are applied I think is key in developing the rules correctly Revising the rules you need to know the the challenges with the application. So to me There's a level of there's a facet of this has got to be a communication path Between the DRB and the planning commission for those items that work those items that don't work What do we need to focus on what's going to drive the changes? What's going what anyways, so this is all the pieces. No, no, I understand Yeah, and we're probably if I continue we'll just get into it I think so we're planning to have this discussion later and develop a draft. Okay. Yeah, so I will withhold But but but in those mind as you're thinking this stuff through don't lose these thoughts I would encourage everybody as these thoughts are coming up note them You know because they either somebody else may be thinking about them or nobody may be thought about and we should so It's it's a it's a new frontier for this for this community There's a lot of there's a lot of neighboring communities effect almost all neighboring communities have done this So it's it's not a it's not a big unknown. It's just an unknown for this group Well, and a lot of communities have transitioned to separate boards or commissions Primarily because of the ethical concerns, right? It may have been successful. I don't know Essex here It has certainly been Corrupted in other places and cause problems, right? You know when someone is in charge of making the plans and approving the plans that Is suspect to Challenges remember that the approval is through the select board. Yeah, it's independent of this body Of these bodies. I'm not let's let's won't argue the point. I mean, I see where you're going with it but I We need to figure out how to get there. Yeah, we know where we need to be We need to figure out what it is that are the the division of duties is and it may be exactly that That may be part of the reason for it, but I don't know that that's been communicated It really just do it. I mean what I've heard from most people and like in other towns is that especially that Having a planning commission read up of the development review side allows from our planning, right? And so that that is a I had not heard about Questionable kinds of things going on so much as the division of labor and and focus Yeah, I actually had a really great conversation with Meg Staliff down in southern Vermont. She's with BDCC I believe the Regional Development Corporation down there and she was pointing out a variety of reasons why it's not particularly Safe or you know, there there are risks in all problems With having them combined and she's seen that firsthand. We had a longer conversation about it and why it's Challenging together If we want to say it's a good thing the reason right now that it's The why is almost it's not irrelevant It's almost irrelevant because the decision to me now we need to figure out how to implement So write all these you get thoughts question things we need to understand write them down so we can bring them back And and address them as a group and then we just can have a good Recommendation to the select board the timing of it the whole line yards. We can we can figure out what makes sense As a as a body as two bodies, so I mean we can get this the zoning board to participate with us on this We already have one Yes Okay, you can be a advocate for this for the rest of the group, okay Okay, happy to do it John or Josh any thoughts questions This was separated to give planning more time to do pure planning, but I also I'm open to the idea that maybe there were some issues that happened when they were combined, but yeah open-minded right now Yeah, I don't really I mean, I don't know enough about this to ask any questions and tonight's the first night I even heard that it's happening. So Is there is there a link to the state statue or something that we can read up on like what are the requirements so on so forth? Some of the information we're trying to gather and we can publish as we get it Okay, I'm sure You can see what what bill we're talking about thank you and then then I can also share the state statute links that explain the function of the planning commission We should discuss that too The the real short version is this is gonna be a this isn't gonna be something that's gonna be delayed our efforts are gonna be they're gonna have to be pretty constant and and We don't have that long of a window. We really get down to it Yes, you mentioned earlier, I know other I would agree I think it's just a matter of As you said we don't know what we don't know yet I think that's this is trying to try to get the effort to to This is just trying an effort to get that to get ourselves on a good starting platform But I think we can try to approach this as simply as possible so that we don't over complicate I think that's a really good point Yeah, like I said, I haven't blocked out for this whole year. It doesn't mean it's gonna take us this whole year And If we get it into workshops, we may actually have to entertain the idea of having you know discussions outside of the normal planning commission cycle and In which to allow for a zoning board in maybe we use zoning board nights if they're not if they don't have active material to cover But More to follow Okay, so let's move on to the next item if we've if we're good Catherine or do you want more of yeah Well, there's there's several other things on here There's the the bylaw Going on and that's with the regional planning commission and looking at increasing density for housing outside of the ETC next Kind of in a slow Process so there's really not a whole lot going on right now next week The regional planning commission is meeting with Aaron and To talk about sewer capacity It's kind of they've stalled a bit needing to understand more Limitations so that will be coming back just you know at some point for some give you one Well, at least if it's not review it would be at least be Informing Some kind of a change to try to take the teeth out of act who could That is yeah with With the state right now in the legislature. Yeah And you know from what I've heard some of that is really in more of our designated areas In the state so if you know, there's the village center or new town center There would or towns that have robust zoning, maybe so I don't know But the thought is that in those areas where there has been a lot of planning and there's a lot of good zoning stupid I will not we'll Know what's coming down the the pike and tell probably like Hey, or yeah, it wasn't it was pushed from the federal government We should get push the states all across the you have to try to loosen up Particularly for housing So I haven't here this is actually I added it new since what I provided for you In your packets, but we need to do a zoning update related to this DRB change And it's that's not gonna be like I got really heavy lift on that But right you know right now it the zoning talks it and the subdivision talk about The roles of the zoning board the roles of the planning commission, you know, who does what so we're just cleaning that up I had a thought at the same time of unifying our bylaws so putting the Subdivision and the zoning together into one I think that would be easy we've talked about that already And then act 47, which is that the housing act that the home act all of that was last year We need to really do a deeper dive and update our zoning Thinking the three of those could go together. What about in in the in the We had talked about doing zoning changes more rapidly easily What about if we're gonna do anything like that to look through and see if there are any low-hanging fruits Or example the use that the gentlemen talked about I'm not talking that one specifically, but Something like a use or something like other things that we could Bring in and do, you know small subset of Zoning changes in addition to the things that we have to do. We're not just waiting and doing a big bucket It's your point. I think that's definitely worth the question. I think I Another line item here is bigger zoning updates Don't talked about and I think the RPDI It's beauty. Those are big so that maybe those don't get wrapped in But maybe they do. I don't know. It's I mean, it's I'm not looking to mislead. You might but if we have opportunity Excuse me in separate distinct efforts. We're gonna put some zoning changes through for X Unless we're gonna wait and combine and do one packet up to the select board. We're gonna do them separately Let's look for opportunity to knock off some low-hanging fruit things that are of a like scale So that if we're doing a number of small things we can do maybe a few more small things Yeah, so my my list there was Some some things I threw in knowing that we really have to do It would be nice if we could do plan on, you know zoning changes every six months And that that's that's including getting it reviewed and getting it Evaluated and put in front of the public if that's not feasible, but if we're doing very small packets I would think that would be a manageable by even for the select board And then I think especially well, and there is planning commission DRB. There'll be more Yeah So I guess I skipped over the 8090 upper main Street Street site planning so that's what Greg I were talking about earlier. So we hiring a consultant up with that work Really, that's gonna be a big public engagement process You know trying to figure out what what's gonna go on that site So we know there's municipal facilities, but we don't know if what they should look like or Do they all happen at once is it phased? there's other Area on this site for other uses. So discussing what those uses be so housing or commercial uses There's space for recreational areas probably more in the back Wetlands, so you can't really develop that part, but it could be great for a boardwalk or around the wetlands or as So just engaging the public in that and then like the planning commission to be a part of that at at some scale Walk that through with you How you would want to be what form is the outreach going to take surveys meetings. Yes, I Don't know actually. I think part of we're working on the RFP Request to go out for proposals and part of it is like tell us what you think is Gonna be a good process So it definitely needs to be in person Get your hair roll up your sleeves kind of work versus just to serve it in my mind, but I think surveys are So hopefully it's a nation of different ways the other couple things on here is the official map which Is probably I'm thinking starting in the winter need to clarify that with Regional planning commission, but the official map is part of a state designation town center It's a requirement and we did not get the meniscus planning grant or the work for the new town center unfortunately It sounds like there were Only half the projects essentially in the state could be funded in Chittin County, they could only fund to 10 So we we were not one but the state's designation program is also in flux right now as well the legislature is likely going to be retooling it so The requirements for a new town center designation might be very different that might not be I Don't I'm thinking there's not they're gonna have different different buckets So you have like a like a main designation. It doesn't really have anything like it does now and then you have designations that So I Went away Maybe it's good that we didn't But possibly Village center designation Something we could think about on the earlier side if if that's not changing Like it's that is a quicker process. I did that when I was in cargo Just the requirements for that are small Relatively if things don't change we could jump right into that summer. So that would be for the Essex Center the historic Essex Center area And I believe in the ETCX plan that was a recognition Center So then the last thing on the list here is development That'll just continue to happen on your first meeting Every month We've consensed Sometimes yep In both spots probably Good questions from anyone for Catherine awesome Okay, it's gonna be a busy year Already the end of jane and he'll It's crazy but hey That's what we're here for And just think we can sit here and smile. No the staffs work it all the time Actually they are working all the time Okay, so the next item on our agenda is the approval of minutes from november 9th and November 16th We're gonna do them separately because I don't remember them at this stage I'm gonna bring them up. So I'd like a motion for the minutes of uh, november 9th from 2023 So All right, I move we uh prove the minutes of november 9th 2020 Move by shoe seconded by john's anyone want to offer any comments to the minutes as presented Okay, those don't count Get that all those in favor of the minutes as presented posed Did you want to abstain one abstention? So that's six one Six zero one six zero one. I wasn't here I still get but did you read the minutes? Yes You're you're absolutely able if you've read the minutes and feel comfortable you're Absolutely able to vote on the minutes as presented You don't have to and I'm recognizing folks. It's absolutely at this point. It's a choice. I don't generally offer abstentions as an as a as an offer during the calling of vote certainly request it Okay, I'd like a minutes pass six zero one I'd like a motion for the minutes of november 16th 2023 Second move second So I have a question not yet go ahead go ahead Since I was here and was a voting member at that time, but you are not a voting member this evening We have a we have a full sitting member of the commission on the board. I know but this is So even if somebody wasn't here as an alternate you were not at this point if there were six six other commissioners You would be a voting member If there are we have seven sitting members of the commission. I mean, I don't I don't really care I just it just seems like I Some people weren't at those meetings. So They're approving where I can't but the dissent the the delineation with the alter And this is a good conversation to have but the delineation with the alternate position is They're a voting member on any given night if The seven if there any member any of the seven Regular commissioners are not present if the seven commissioners are present. They are strictly an advisory Um position so the regardless of what's in front of us Um And if we need to change that we certainly can address it But at this point we we I don't feel we can make that that change on the fly Yeah, as I said, it's not like it's a valid point to discuss But I then we're starting to get into who is on this app who who was here for that app at this point It's really just who is here for this evening And that's what that's what we determine who the voting members are We're going to leave it at that for now Yes, but I think if when we get into discussion about operating procedures Maybe we can fine tune this a little bit or see if there's a need to we can discuss if there's a general need for that Okay, thank you for the clarification. No, that's again. This is this is new Um We have a motion in a second for the minutes of november 16 2023 Do we have any commentary or any requests for changes on the minutes of november 16th? Hearing none all those in favor of the minutes from november 16th 2023 signified by saying aye. Aye Opposed Extension abstain 601 motion minutes pass Okay, do we have any other business to address this evening? Uh No, um, I think that We did mention that the capital budget and plan are Before the select board next monday for that the public Budget as well Staff do you need anything from us at this point in the short term? Okay Then I would take a motion to adjourn so moved Moved by shoe seconded by trevor all those in favor. Aye Opposed that'd not be anybody motion carried


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