f like well it has no value and they'll like oh fuck it then all right i give up it's like oh wow shit i mean now you've made it for sure that nobody's ever gonna you know see what you could have made in the future all i'm saying is that if all he's trying to say is these people's streams don't generate like a market value because they don't have anyone watching or whatever it's like so that's just a neutral it's not even like why would you think even to say it is so it's so normal as a statement but if you fray a bit as they don't have value or they don't have uh they don't matter you know yeah silly i mean you could be a really talented streamer and i think it does take skill to be able to not only do an activity or play a game but also hold an audience's attention at the same time but and if someone is like really good at that and they're just looking at their view metrics and it's like oh nobody's watching i guess i'll just give up then and then like never make anything after that you've just robbed yourself of the potential to grow your audience at all it's like you're definitely not going to get anywhere if you don't stream at all and so if asma gold is saying if you have zero views you don't matter like somebody could take that and be like oh i guess i'll just give up then like it's not a cool message the reason why it's uh relying on these kind of like external metrics as a marker of your success can be really fickle compared to if you've got like internal metrics that are more based on i i guess what you would define as the quality of the thing that you're making that as long as you're improving your succeeding not necessarily that you're gaining x number of subscribers per day or viewers per day because that's so out of your control in a lot of ways obviously there's no control and influence right it's not like the things that you do have no impact on on your external results but yeah yeah value to this stream they're not going to make any money uh now maybe they will in in the future but whenever they do in the future the reason for that will be because people see value in them that's because the art you even made a point there my guy well this is what i mean though if he's just saying they'll be more popular when they're more popular who's going i mean yeah total logically yes yeah which is why yeah that point is on the air sold is empowered by the people that consume their content and it doesn't matter if it's a picture it doesn't matter if it's a video a stream or anything or a hammer or a hammer where people only is only has value for as long as people see value in it these things have value because other people say they do art is fundamentally subjective that's i think that if you think it's art it's art that's where it comes from i i fundamentally so can art not be so i guess i don't think art can be not subjective at all well you just said if you think it's odd it's odd which is another really weird statement which is also not true that's just like well yeah because if you pointed a trend say that's odd it's like um it's nature odd yeah if you point at the 11th thunder and say that's odd yeah yeah it's like it's not even a mind so unless he's appealing to a set such as making up your own like language or something but there's only a few things that might fit the deaf fit that if you say it's a thing it's the thing like anything like a designation right like the word you know you you know what i mean like there are very few things that you can't designate a thing without it being a designation because it's like tautologically what the word means you know but in a meaningful sense no just because you say something's the thing doesn't mean it's that thing yeah there are people and some people think that everything is odd so reason why that's true is the same essence of the reason why i'm saying what i'm saying so whenever i say an artist's opinion doesn't matter on their art it's because whenever an artist says this is worth $50 to me and somebody else says no it's not the artist can still try to charge $50 for it but nobody has to buy it it's a monetary value i feel i feel like you even had to alter his own point there so in the scenario where the artist says it's worth 50 and then everyone else goes i am paying 50 fuck you he was like there and then he thought to himself well wait i guess the artist wouldn't have to sell it though would they they could still be like it's it's 50 you pay 50 or you don't get it and he was like okay but nobody has to pay for it that way and it's like yeah but it matters doesn't it that artist's opinion on what that thing is worth what value it has yeah because if they didn't have an opinion on it then that person could have bought it but if they're saying no fuck you it's worth this price we just we just established that it was prevented from entering the market or rather it's it's opening to the market is now hampered by that artist's opinion of its value so really this is not a good example no i i genuinely think he even kind of saw that for a second there i was like oh fuck right yeah because the artist can and will it'll change based on the artist's mattering opinion which again um it's brought up later by another account but uh flappy birds being an example of a game that was taken down because the creator's opinion was changed about the nature of the art and what it was doing like to the world and like that's another that's just that then that matters off the market like that's that's a huge impact and also just yeah the artist's opinion that determines what the thing is that's being bought or sold like of course it matters if the artist had a different opinion and a different outlook on everything then it would just be a totally different thing because that value is decided by the customer that's the way it works is whenever you go to market with a product you have to meet the customer's demand and it doesn't matter about so is it what does flappy bird have to do with the nature of the world everything everything is the answer what you think the world should be it doesn't matter about how you view ethics in art it doesn't matter about how you think trade should be it doesn't hold on i mean you can't you can't say that it's customers who determine the value of these things and then say it doesn't matter what the customer thinks it's like which one yeah well yeah it seems to be going for like individual doesn't matter but group does like what do you think a group is well and it's usually comes for a group is usually to you know comprise of individuals but oftentimes it's spread from other people telling other people telling other people telling you know i mean like he's almost decrying the idea of shouting out to the world that you have an issue with x because it's done this way and then he's like there's no point doesn't matter your opinion doesn't matter it's like but if you have traction yeah or if you're a particularly good speaker and you can present your idea in a way that's very compelling a lot of people like hey bomb a guy's perspective on someone's art as an individual killed their channel i doves was known for this he was channel killer if people didn't care about plagiarism and you know theft of that nature then the channel would still be up because the guy wouldn't feel bad about it because no one would feel bad about it so there's no issue whatsoever so none of that wouldn't happen what is voting if not trying to manifest in some way the way that you think the world ought to be and how it ought to be run yes does it matter about whether you're a capitalist these things do matter though that's the problem even if you don't think they matter the most which is fine i could probably agree with that they do matter stir not none of these things matter the only thing fundamentally that matters is if what you are doing is perceived to have value in the eyes of the public no what i mean the public what the fuck are you talking about what if i do it for me and it makes me happy well that what seems like he is very squally on the idea of like economic value rather than i guess the more uh yeah this is what kind of you know too many things get conflated because it's like uh what he wanted to say was that no matter what you have to say about your artwork rags its market value won't be determined by that but it's like but that's not even true if rags went crazy and said a bunch of wacky things like the i think what didn't this happen in succession they were trying to do a deal and one of the guys started tweeting crazy shit and they were like stop it's tanking on numbers remember that yeah the uh yeah the scars card guy yeah like the you know take any like wholesome happy artist who releases paintings every once a while or anything and then starts tweeting the n-word or something over and over again people are like oh my god um and so that individual will then have a huge effect on the market you know yeah exactly and then if someone said that's not an opinion that's just being crazy it's like okay yeah just they express an opinion on you know where i'm going with this like they can express any kinds of opinions that'll get the uh destroy the market value and not the artist a famous artist who just decides one day you know what i hate my art and it's terrible and no one should ever have it yeah and they just decide to destroy all their art so that dramatically increases the value of all their pieces that are in you know private collections and are in museums yeah like well that that artist's opinion literally insanely and drastically changed the value of their art and its price like i can't believe someone said like that's not an opinion on the value of the art it's like you can't you can't conceive of a controversial opinion on your own artwork that you could release to damage its market value you can't think of one i mean i know that i could i know that i could right like i could destroy my entire channel in 10 seconds now if i wanted to excuse me in the eyes of the person you're selling it to and the truth of that but that's an individual that's a customer not the general plurality of customers there are plenty of things that the amorphous blob of consumers might in a descriptive way price a thing at but i don't give a shit you know it's like yeah like your art art's actually a really good example for this there are plenty of artists who say yeah if you want to get art from me it'll cost ten thousand dollars and i'll be just like i don't give a shit i'll give you i'll give you a hundred for it is proven every single day it's proven every single day whenever somebody buys a video makes a video game and nobody buys it it's proven whenever riot shuts down riot forge because nobody bought the games do you want to know why a lot of those people got fired it's because of you it's because of you and it's because of me and the reason why is because we didn't buy and support those games because we didn't care about them and because we didn't care about them they didn't make any money and they got fucking fired no it's partially like a lot of it is not up to us a lot of it has to do with you know well what's the cost on it you know what do they have to operate at in order to be successful it's like yeah people have to buy sure but how much that happens and how much support it takes also in this gonna also be determined by you know the operating costs and what it took to make it you gotta be careful with thinking like this because it can take you to everything that takes place in the world that you have the potential to do anything to stop is now your fault you'll be like what if you just didn't even know it existed what if you didn't even know what if you couldn't know you could have taken steps to find yeah yeah well this right me like that this is going a little too far on this one yeah and that's the way the world works again now I understand that there's a lot of people that are angry because I'm saying this because don't shoot the messenger yeah I think I think he's just he's not saying it very well that's all I'm not angry at him he's he's chilling he's fine he's exploring this very complicated topic like lots of people do or do that's fine but the reality is that I'm still not wrong and this reality will be proven every single second of every day until the end of time it's I don't think that I'm proven every second too is that weird matters that he keeps using it says it's destroying every argument he makes on what I said but maybe if I maybe if I said it in a different way more people would have it would have resonated with more people but in another way I'm saying it and now a lot of people are mad and more people are addressing it so I don't think that it's really like a I'm right and you know they're wrong or whatever but I think about this but you said you know what you base this all off I'm right you do you absolutely think that you want to ask him what's the difference between something that matters and something that doesn't matter what's the thing that makes the the mattering thing well I'm sure you agree with us that we need a framing we need a thing that it matters too we remember we highlighted this one of his statements where he said matters and we were like we need the thing that you're talking about matters to what do I fundamentally do I frame you needed intention sorry go ahead well this is this is what we were talking about this is why everyone's getting mad at him on twitter because a lot of people have now taken him to mean the artists don't matter full stop which is like like he's devaluing a human being if they become an artist which is obviously taken way too far but like even the notion of that for a lot of people on twitter is so infuriating they like it's almost why they believe that he said it like this piece of shit hate him he said the thing that I fucking hate fundamentally what I do is I communicate to people and so I think about you know is my mode of communication actually becoming counterproductive I don't think so but I do think I personally think that something gets kind of productive well one of the things he just said was that had he phrased it in a much more agreeable way maybe it wouldn't have had as much reach and had as many people thinking about it which is an interesting point of view probably did rip off things from nintendo directly I do think so I'm gonna keep playing the game that doesn't affect my opinion of the game but I do think that they I think that they didn't like so a genuine answer for me if I'm playing a game I'm really enjoying that I find out they just and I'm not saying this about powell wield and saying the theoretical if I played a game where they'd ripped every single asset from other games I genuinely would have to think for a bit I'd be like hmm maybe I shouldn't play the game like this this it does feel a bit awkward because this is like if it's stolen work I don't know yeah I don't yeah I don't yeah well I would definitely feel pretty about it now if it took if it yeah it'd be like it would be one thing if it took assets from all kinds of different games and combined them into a very interesting and strange way or maybe it was trying to make some sort of like a meta point potentially almost like like a Stanley parable style of this and that and being a gamer and yeah I think it would function on a big old scale wouldn't it like yeah yeah I think so I agree with you and I also think there's a strong possibility that a game like that would get review bombed you know like if it was just like so obviously Pokemon like none of the designs were altered I think a lot of people would have had that day before what was that game wasn't that the day before the day before yeah yeah oh this this countless examples right like some of the worst and then some of the chiller ones there's these examples of games that are really good that have like things that are clearly taken from something else but how ethical the acquiring of those assets are is complicated sometimes sure how much you add to it and so on um I agree right this is why we don't like Hassan because right we create a video why we don't like Hassan okay but we create a video and then there is nothing which is your favorite reason well but there's there's this you know creation of a piece of property that we think is good and then you put it out there in the world and somebody watches it quietly while they get up and go to the bathroom right like there's nothing added to it so that that's the same sort of thing that I think you're talking about uh with regards to taking lots of influences and and mixing them together but I do tend to agree with you Mahler that if this game were a one-to-one stolen property thing right like you wouldn't necessarily uh want to keep playing that I would definitely think about it even if it yeah that's the ethics of it I think there's a line for everybody probably on that one too like if if the game would just a complete rip and they changed the name alone and people really enjoyed it and then they were informed like you you should be playing the original one it's right over there sort of thing I wonder if they're is it is the effort of turning that off and going to the odd the other one enough to stop them I don't know but like I said I would definitely think about it my line is definitely gonna be a bit more robust and complicated more so than do I have fun or not yes especially like the in the in the case of pal world there is a layer of modification to the designs it might be a slim one but it is there and I think that's enough for most people to go like okay yeah that's fine like there's one animal in pal world that's like a fire fox and it's just like vulpics and charmander basically it's like what if we just mixed design elements from these two and made a new thing and people are just like yeah you know yeah it's just like I can see the elements from both but you sort of unify them into one thing I don't think Nintendo holds any legal ground over like a a fox creature that has fire powers so like I think this is fine and no yeah it's all silly ones like the sheep one was really funny but it was like they've copied pokemon it's like they've drawn from a sheep like that's silly yeah if you're as yeah especially ones that are based on animals is like two different companies are taking strong inspiration from a real life thing so they're probably going to look decently similar because they're both taking inspiration from the real animal what a lot of them are arguing uh which is really dangerous by the way is that Nintendo and specifically pokemon owns the aesthetic right they own the art aesthetic and that is a very dangerous position because does the simpsons own characters that are yellow right exactly and that is the argument that a lot of them need to devolve to I think the comparison for simpsons would be more so you can tell when someone's drawn something you're like oh that looks like simpsons style like simpsons has a style there is a simpsons matte braining style yeah just like south park has a style which is the uh like the characters are like made of of uh piece of paper cut into square circles and that they animate in a specific way yes so in pal world specifically the animals are definitely pokemon aesthetic they are in that style for sure there's no question and it is purpose we would probably be calling them neopet style if that had become more popular than pokemon right or you know uh any of these really you you could say digimon you you could say uh even what is it macami tense which you know created the concept of capturing uh and fighting animals together I think humans create that well okay yeah as long as you know as long as their designs are you know distinct and different from our own you know it's like well it's all right fair enough yeah it's like I it's too close and maybe i'm wrong maybe i'm wrong but like what's it see so it's very music saying it's just aesthetic is disingenuous there are pals that are just straight up pokemon it's like disingenuous i've not even played the game i'm talking about the theory of all of it i don't know that person's also wrong like just i've seen some that are like definitely close but they're still different i can still be like oh one is this one i want is that one and i air on the side of a letting people take strong inspiration other than saying no your your inspiration means that nintendo can sue you i'll he's probably good to air on the side of you know that yeah but we also just literally addressed that whole thing by saying the simpsons so well there's just scaling and degrees and you definitely don't want to be in a position where we crushed down so hard that it actually like kills amazing new projects right yeah well i mean just a month ago we're all celebrating uh steamboat willy and then today oh well the power of taking inspiration is disgusting i think part of that is how much people hate disney right now i'm not the lawyer i don't need to be like you know a hundred percent you know fucking right about this or this is an illegal argument i'm just saying like this is my vibe check as a person who makes youtube videos sure okay okay like this is a vibe check so anyway uh if you're sure there's a capitalist direction not wrong i think many including myself would argue that uh we have a good moral obligation to look after the ones making said products even in the capitalist thing is wrong if you're streaming viewing this from a capitalist viewpoint you're not wrong i think many including myself would argue that we have a moral obligation to look after well so i think he's gonna line up with us mostly on this the it isn't the system it's going to be the actors within the system and the we do still try to care like the let the more extreme parts of any system to prevent it from you know overflowing in any particular direction if we never care about the artist the art stops and nobody wins and uh i respond back to this i say if many such yourself care about the moral obligation why is it the biggest companies are often the most immoral wait it and my point is that we should be moral often the most immoral we should be moral oh yeah but big companies are often not moral i don't i don't even see how those two things are related well so they he's saying that it can't be that many care if we end up with companies that are supported by the many that are immoral i guess he's commenting on the fact that like an apple or an amazon or whatever have you are fundamentally immoral with what's a lot of what they do but the the dollars come in from quote-unquote the many in this case i don't know how that's yeah but even then i don't know how that's a counter to the person saying we should you know act morally that's the countering the many concept uh which i mean the thing is many could mean a lot of people rather than the significant selection of people like as in like the vast majority of people whatever um this is the result from a self-resurrential worldview that most people have rather than an outcome of capitalism the whole concept of a corporation though is to be amoral right like that's why they exist is to remove the morality and make a profit yeah corporations don't have a moral component intrinsically right i think wouldn't it be better to sign that way even even if we actually knew just truthfully from wizard man that um no matter what uh morality everyone hears about the the evil corporation will win it's like okay but that doesn't mean we should just not we should just stop right that we should probably continue pushing for good morals anyway come on here right i don't think i was not going to die but i'm gonna try and push that time back as far as i can yes because it's not built into the structure of a corporation right a corporation is by its design amoral because it is existing exclusively to create profit and deliver that profit to its stakeholders and that is exclusively what it does there is no morality around it the the the job of us as a consumer uh um when we're purchasing these things and we don't like the the ethics of it is to not purchase from them or to force change in some way right like those are political systems and stuff whatever it is right like whether through boycotts or whether through just shaming the corporation to the point where it becomes a lack of profitability or to start that corporation and force ethics and morality to be a part of the the corporate structure itself but outside of that the corporations are are designed to be amor i feel like if we can change things like the eradication of the institution of slavery then we can do all sorts of things and having a doomer mindset of oh what was us everything's terrible nothing's gonna change everyone's amoral and you're all bad is like i don't like that that's not very helpful no and they're not right like the provably people are not bad um i mean they can be bad but like as a general you'd like to think that generally humans are pretty neat i think that people are good because we're not all murdering each other right like we've created these sort of structures of government and structure of law and we generally abide by it because we want to right like if you yeah if you didn't want to if all people looked at the rule of law and we were like fuck that shit well then it wouldn't exist people have a mutual interest in living in a society that's stable they don't want to have to constantly look over their shoulder and worry about whether they're gonna get killed or i'll have other shit stolen like we need a social fabric right and then we accept the sort of governmental thuggery that comes down and puts this threat of violence above us right like we accept that we got uh in chai see a quote from rags someone's got just be positive and we'll magically overcome it that's right that's just what i said that is just what you say very true you did it you nailed it the good times oftentimes people that think that because they get 6 000 likes or 12 000 likes or 40 000 likes on twitter then somehow this means that this is what most people think it's not most of the thing what how are you i think that i mean that that isolation is fair yeah but it's just because you got a lot of engagement on twitter doesn't mean that it reflects what most people think uh yeah sure yeah yeah though here in this case i doubt you will get i think that the idea of you should be moral you know you should try to be a good consumer essentially is something that most people would disagree with sorry so that again he was talking about he was talking about the people shitting on him on twitter uh yeah yes it's it's great to look at what i yeah all right yeah moving on yeah i agree with that yes that sentiment but sentiment is never better than data and the data says that it's not true of games like pow world hitting two million concurrent players six thousand people liking a tweet doesn't really matter and if we didn't have this data then we'd be having a debate using that weird but we don't need to have a debate because the data proves the truth and it will prove it over and over and over again obviously it's not the case but just like it did with sweatshots it's like it did with lithium batteries and just like it's doing right now with ai and in the future it will be something that we can't even imagine that we'll be doing the same thing and so i think it's going to be interesting because we capitalism money is greater than moral one moment this person believe anything it's like i think that it just died frame changed for me oh yes okay maybe refresh why look i couldn't even exit for a moment they wouldn't let me um oh okay give me a sec i'll boot her back up well what triggered me was him using that matters weird again uh yeah uh a tweet is like many things that we change our mind on it doesn't happen all at once it's uh we get nudged in that direction over time and oftentimes it's you know people on social media giving their opinions and reasoning and that nudges us towards a different opinion and then one day it's like oh yeah well uh you know now it's but but you know i think differently the thing is it's all about scale six six thousand likes can absolutely change something uh six thousand likes did in fact very recently like a few days ago and chug a conroy's career right like this does happen six thousand likes can absolutely do that right this is why when he says doesn't matter i'm just like i need you to make more sense because you're not making sense to me yeah you're gonna have to say something you're gonna have to tell me what you mean when you say that word because i don't even know if you know what you mean or if you're just referring to this aetheris general concept that you can't quite grab on to also give me a second just uh i don't know what's going on my i think chrome is is having a bit of a memory leak or something uh maybe someone had mentioned watch together uh sometimes doesn't play nice with chrome every once in a while i haven't had a problem but i've heard it from some people that that that they have to use like an incognito tab or microsoft edge yeah during this stream i actually switched over to edge because it was killing my computer i mean as the days go back it's into more and more controversy the amount that chrome is being like uh seen as a shitty the browser mm-hmm tomorrow but oh well uh i mean it's fine for now so we'll just go back to being normal 12 000 likes or 40 000 likes on twitter then somehow this means that this is what most people think it's not i think that it's it's great to look at sentiment but sentiment is never better than data and the bizarre way to phrase that um yeah sometimes i joke because i've been playing d d and d recently and sometimes you make the joke of it's it's only it's only one of your hit points that actually matters it's the the last one the last arrest yeah it which is like yeah technically that's true you know generally but obviously there's going to be a huge difference between characters and video games and whatnot that have one hit point versus you know 50 versus you know a thousand right it's the same argument as the last vote does is the only vote that matters yeah it's like you only have to get one over the other guy you know but but but obviously you know the things that people say in the discourse that happens it affects uh what people do in a more tangible sense it affects what they buy it affects how they vote it affects all this stuff which is obvious and everyone should know that in simplifying it to saying that none of this you know matters is like i don't know insanely simplistic and i don't even know what what was the word is is it myopic is that with a my of is that the word lacking imagination foresight or intellectual insight yeah myopic so i don't know like it if like i my political because i used to be like a hardcore catholic and i'm an atheist now and that happened over a course of many debates and many arguments and anything like if something that fundamental i guess to my life can change then so can people spending habits and they often do there are products i won't buy there are companies i won't buy from and i think everyone's pretty much like that for the most part i think i it's not a big deal especially because we have so many options that i'll be like yeah i won't buy from this company but i'll buy from this you know adjacent company to get the a near identical or similar product but that i think is you know either more ethical or less unethical you know i think this is something that probably most people in chat do um so it's it's strange coming from him you think he'd be really clued into this what i'm starting to know is is he says doesn't matter we respond with well there are many such cases of it mattering and then many people in chat are being like yeah but still generally doesn't matter it's like if he had said it generally doesn't matter that'd be different and i don't even yeah that would be better for him but i don't even know if like do the way does the way people think i would still say the way people think generally doesn't matter because that's what determines the things that they tangibly do even i mean the beliefs that people have determines their actions and their behaviors you can't you go i'm sorry i'm just gonna say in the in the context of what we're talking about the idea that it is popular to be you know whatever does not make it ethical it's it's not part of the equation at all yeah which is the thing that we're all like yeah we know yeah yeah that's right yeah i yes it's so funny everyone everyone's saying that is that is what he means and you're overlooking it it's like you're so generous but like you gotta you gotta let him have his actual opinion you can't change it yeah he said many times this is the thing that we keep getting hung up on because he keeps saying it wrong but why don't we just take him for what he's saying which is he thinks that it doesn't matter generally in the grand scheme of the discussion which again not true on so many different aspects of how different products enter and exit the market that's just obvious at the same time it's not a great position to take because it's discouraging people from sharing like their own disdain toward a product or why they would stand away from it ethically because well it doesn't matter when it's like but it does we know what he means exactly because he pulled up twitch and he went and he showed these streamers don't matter he made it very clear what he thinks yeah and i disagree with him like it's i i also disagree one person's opinion could destroy a product it's uh it could happen at any moment absolutely one single person is often all it takes and there could be a person with no followers in that nuts and the data says that it's not true of games like pow world hitting two million concurrent what's his problem with pow world sorry oh he's just saying that it doesn't matter what people say about pow world because everyone loves it anyway yeah it's popular so it's good well which is funny because what if in a week's time it went to zero fucking players like it's traceable that we only have a million examples of that happening what i'm saying like so many products have died as a result of controversies i don't know why we're saying that this is just it's like it doesn't work it's like well no it can work we know it can work yeah i don't think he has i don't think he has a problem with pow world except no maybe he might think that some of the designs the creators might get in trouble for by nintendo but i don't even think he thinks of that as a problem um six thousand people liking a tweet doesn't really matter and if we didn't have this data then we might be having a debate am i not but we don't need to have a debate because the data proves the truth and it will prove it over and over and over this kind of reminds me people say like you can't say tlj was bad because he was so hyper successful or whatever and it's just like well it could have been more successful what if powell could have been double the numbers is that even now without the people saying whatever they've said about it how do you know like these are stats as though it's all encompassing i mean like you don't have the stats on everything you know is that like data is describing what's real it's not making things real well and even when we're talking about data right like the the extrapolation of what the data means can be biased throughout the whole process that's part of the thing right we can take the same data set and determine many different things out of it yeah like for example eight million copies sold is better than six k up votes it's like why would you you've extrapolated the data in the most retarded for like way ever what does that even mean like over again just like it did with sweatshops just like it did with lithium batteries and just like it's doing right now with ai and in the future it will be something that we can't even imagine that will be doing the same thing and so why is it because somebody's off the most memorial because go back a hundred years think of the insane changes there are problems now therefore it doesn't matter what is what was there there's probably always going to be some sort of a uh an ethical issue we haven't solved we we haven't created the utopia yet what are we what are we getting out here oh i just had a really good example upton sinclair in the jungle right if not for that uh people reading this oh this is a sinclair in the jungle yes exactly yeah that's right right people not reading that and going i don't like the way that they are making mind for the audience who doesn't know what that is why don't you tell them what upton sinclair in the jungle is so upton sinclair was a journalist who wrote a book called the jungle which is about the meat packing industry and in that book he writes about all of the various kind of gross ways that they they treat meat and this was back in like 1930s or something and it was things like you know workers are getting their hands chopped off and that is ending up in your hamburgers and the animals are being treated really badly and they're covered in feces and all that kind of stuff and that single book managed to completely change the way that everybody looked at food safety right because hey if there's literal shit ending up in my food i don't like that if there's people ending up in my food i don't like that so the entire industry whether people or poop people and and well i mean wait no wait because if i meet a people that encourages a bucket of killing people to feed me i would go hang on i don't eat poop either though well no one ever knew what if it was all secret and no one ever knew that you ate them which one would you eat if you had to would you rather eat people or poop but it's prions that scare me right like i don't want to end up with it scares me if if it's about eating your brain melts well it doesn't eat poop as well yeah i don't think either of them are good yeah i know that that's the the question is which one would you rather eat oh fuck man because i mean i'm eating the people yeah if i had to choose between eating a person or you know eating people eating also i you can recognize how many people are just not listening to the point you're making by how many have told you the book lied it's like so whether the book tells truth or tells lies the point was of how much effect it had yes correct doesn't matter what's in the book it doesn't matter at all the point is it's a single book that completely changed the entire industry for a hundred years right it created a lot of i i don't want to say it's the food and drug administration but um someone just concluded lies equal good yes yes the meat do we have a lot of tourists in chat today possibly yes because of i haven't gone my jeez you're gonna you guys are gonna have to engage your brain you're gonna kick it into at least second gear for this for this discussion i've never had chat turn against me before that's well we knew it would happen we're talking about something that's very very hot button all right and that's okay well we've done it before they're all fucking morons right and remember when moriarty says all he means not all of you not all of you of course no there's one exceptions are built into the world he says you're already it's he doesn't mean all of you yeah when he says all of you are fucking stupid he's clearly about the ones that he thinks are stupid yeah yes what else is chat for if not to jump to conclusions about the discussion yay capitalism money is greater than morals this person believes that bad systems and abuse was invented by capitalism this is not true no so let me no rags you mean yes that's not what that's not what they said is it what what's the quit they say capitalism they're not i don't think they're saying that capitalism invented immorality and stuff so when he says artists don't matter and they say he's correct strictly from a capitalist viewpoint implying that the problem is that a capitalist viewpoint doesn't value the individual or the artist it's just money causing these problems and he's gonna argue that that's not true it's the individuals in the system that that create the problems by how they make use of the system which i quite like as a point of view i've always agreed with it um yeah i don't i don't get how the person was saying that capitalism invented those things i just said how because they're saying that it's it's it's a common like the problem we're dealing with here is all a commentary on where uh capitalism sends us with a mind that which loads of people think like the capitalism leads you down the road of not valuing individuals or workers or whatever have you it's all the dollar the almighty dollar or as homo says the all it allah go ahead and give you an example so before capitalism we had monarchies and we had things like that wait are we just gonna have to talk about a whole bunch of the political like he's i mean we could just like economic system he's gonna argue that he thinks capitalism is currently the best economic system it's not that controversial many people think this happen if i guess it's funny the picture of the king who made the king look fat well then they'd just be dead and that's the way that it works there's never been there's never been a better system for people to express themselves not a not a western capitalist argument this is the great what do you mean what do you think i mean i what he described wasn't an economic system he made the king you got killed that's that that's not like i agree capitalism's the best we got is great but it's talking about artistic expression under different economic systems and if monarchy which isn't even an economic system right that's more of a ruling but he's just trying to say that through the ages that we are now in the best position for artists to express themselves i agree yes greatest mode of expression that we've ever had in the history of humanity does that mean that we can't do better no it doesn't but i am not going to look at any other system that's been tried in the past and say that let's go back to that absolutely not it's actually true this is just a a restatement of what was it i want to say it was winston tertul who said democracy is the the worst that we've ever had except for every other right it's the same kind of idea and right there are plenty of problems with a hypercapitalistic model plenty of issues i think we all experience them every single day um that there's no i don't understand why this comes into the equation at all though right because i think he's trying to counter the notion that capitalism has led to artists being trodden downtrodden somewhat but the thing is one could reply to what he's just said with i agree it is the best it's still got so many problems we need to solve or something like that you know unfortunately the nuance which we've talked about on this 50 fucking times people just do not understand nuance it's not uh they would say that about you especially in the case like the medium of twitter right like nuance just doesn't exist there well i mean when you're limited to 240 characters hey not anymore for a lot of people anyway for those who pay right for our x premium right then you can type out more what is the is there a limit for the people who pay you're just going for it i presume that there has to be a limit yeah i presume you can't post like an entire novel on twitter do you remember i've seen some long posts though it wasn't there a time where it was like they doubled the length and ever went crazy it was like oh my god twitter because it was like 140 it was 140 was it or 120 i think it was 140 i i thought it got doubled to 280 that's what i thought yeah 140 to 280 sorry i thought i thought it was secondly you were like wait a minute half of 280 is a 140 yeah god dammit um but the but yeah i mean when you can only when it was like 140 and then to 280 that's still like fuck all that's barely anything to uh to uh to like basically delve into whatever thing you're trying to say with it's like twitter encourages snark that's what you get rewarded on twitter if the response being a snark is possible rather than as informed as possible yes yeah i mean dunking on people right like the whole concept of right which we see here of the uh the quote retweet which i abuse plenty don't don't worry but uh it sort of encourages the idea of just dunking on a yeah a small snippet that you can barely see without context mind you totally pointy it should just be called dunk instead of x dunker does anybody does anybody actually hold x do people do that because i still keep calling on twitter it's twitter forever i i see people saying x and i'm like what are you doing i see it crop up as uh that on like articles and stuff that i think they professionally speaking need to refer to it as x but any cat but it's always followed by formally known as twitter formerly known as twitter yeah it's always twitter just elon's retardation was like we're gonna really wonder if credible branding that we got it's a dictionary and he got rid of it is it just a matter of time do you think before eventually everybody well yeah because it will probably reach a point where people don't remember that it was called twitter yeah i don't know does anybody call i guess facebook mentally or facebook is still facebook the company is matter i guess that's that's true that's sorry it's not quite the same um okay what about google and alphabet though nobody will people call the well no people when they refer to the company when they talk about it in like stocks and and they refer to it as alphabet ink people call google google i get what you mean that people colloquially call but isn't google google is like one of the companies that's organized come to alphabet right like alphabet is a conglomerate kind of like how um you know on your west like he changed his name to ye but people still like call them kind of both and it was but people say Kanye west to might be a closer one yeah or puff daddy well and how many people call it Warner Brothers discovery if it was like people generally just call it Warner Brothers yeah the discovery part but then again when people report on it again in like financial you know newspapers and stuff they'll call it Warner Brothers discovery no both of my examples were wrong twitter x is just that's just like a very unique one of you've just changed the name dramatically yeah wait so one inch i just said uh i wasn't sure about this but then my dad told me snickers used to be called marathons oh and and some marathon is a different thing marathons actually the mars version of it um so much you know why it's called snickers uh yeah why would it be called because actually because that was the name of the mars family's favorite horse oh that's cool i thought it was called the Mars bar because of Mars like Mars yeah marathon was a unique thing or the god the one that i saw as well that was an interesting one is the sears tower because isn't it called the willis tower now or am i ever i mixed them up wait which one in chicago right what's it called now i don't know damn it yeah it's willis tower right but it used to be called the sears tower yeah that's right um but do people still but but do people still call it the sears tower or do they has ever any change to calling it willis tower i only know it is the sears tower and i'm you know not old so yeah yeah because people are saying people still call it sears tower i mean which is hind's field right hind's field is now akrischer field i'm sure that's a similar thing that we're people who have grown up their whole lives calling it the hind's stadium or hind's field or whatever um or wriggly field if that were to change his name i imagine the same sort of thing with oh yeah wriggly field i think this thing wriggly field is a name that sticks well because that happens with stadiums as well i think uh oh fun i got it was cold yeah stadiums often change then well it depends some stadiums keep their names forever and some of them change and then you just keep remembering the old the old one existed in newspaper during french monarchy even during louis the the six the 14th i'm sure that there are exceptions but do you really want to make the argument that inside of a monarchy people have more autonomy to be able to control their own wealth depends on who you talk to i guess they're awesome i mean they're awesome it could technically be possible i guess depends on the monarch but probably not no also where you are in that right like if you're the monarch yeah you absolutely have a lot of free if you're the monarch yeah you get a lot of freedom yeah you really think that the king and the people that were running france at the time were moral but i think that this person would probably be not advocating for also this monarchy this is serfdom this is truly going to places that we're not going to be again today we got plenty to talk about this dream we're not talking about whether or not the kings and queens were moral okay they were good people if you're if you're a monarchist in the chat oh boy good for you no louis the sun god was right okay he's right righteous i like the sun you think that they treated artists and people that were involved with them what's the guy in dark souls wait sorry what about the sun the praise the sun who's that that was louis the 14th in dark souls yeah never who was he though you mean like it's law or i know his name i can't remember his name yeah so it says solar oh right okay yeah solar yeah wow very original what hey what are you implying i'm implying that's really original and i like it it's totally from pokemon no is solar a pokemon yes what does he look like did like is he a goober is he a yellow bull is he a ladder a goober solar pokemon i hope i spelled it right images no these people were brutal animals the same as everybody else cards of solar yeah they i was i don't know solar sounds like a name i checked and it seems that i don't think there is one i mean if there was i would have just been like yeah that one i wouldn't be surprised it's like over a thousand now there's a solar rock there's a lot do you remember the do you remember the gold one that was the one thousandth what the hell oh you remember one thousand yeah let me get you guys a picture of this this is horseshit all right let me get i'm gonna show you more horseshit than the keys really i'm gonna show you a picture this isn't a meme this is actually the one thousandth pokemon very good wow that's incredibly dumb his name is gold dango gold dango that sounds like an australian you know what i got as an impression this is fucking the poochie like oh you remember poochies i remember poochie from itchy scratchy and poochie yeah that's what i was thinking too yeah poochie was like a like a late 90s toy i think it was like a little cartoon character that was created by itchy and scratchy studios voiced by homa simpson who went back to his home planet and died on the way there yeah it feels like they would say like this this character died on the way back to its own planet that it's no longer canon yep what i must go now if my planet needs me that just the it was just a cell moving off yep i have to go and it's now it's just static do you remember the gag it was um do you remember it was the uh it was the itchy and scratchy the one where where itchy uh finally dies where scratchy gets him and how Bart and lisa was just there eagerly anticipating it and it was really hyped up where like there was a bunch of dynamite strapped around his chest even stuck the dynamite at his eyelids and then pointed a giant rocket at him and they were eagerly awaiting this payoff they'd be waiting their entire lives to see scratchy get itchy and then the nerd unplugged the tv yeah and then trusty like oh they're never gonna let us show that again not in a million years the revolution if if that wasn't the case you're mistaken if you think capitalism didn't exist within a monarchy well at a certain point you can you get to the like what do you mean we can just we know we don't have to deal with all this do you mean the ownership of private property do you mean a free market what do you mean by capitalism i think you should define your idea more clearly and then we should i think you should literally you fucker oh my god oh my god you too oh you also need to identify oh my say it to himself right like somebody says money over morals uh this is the true uh this is true everywhere like no that's literally not true not true everywhere some people literally would rather do the right thing than necessarily just make money but like the concept of charity i'm not even talking about like organizations or anything just people doing charitable things isn't that an example of moral over money i mean volunteering when you choose to do an activity for free yeah i think as long as you're not you're not like you know taking the sort of ultra um undoing it for for tax purposes kind of thing but not everybody does things for money just because they live in a capitalist system yeah it means you can potentially if you want there's not as many like a couple people say like virtue say like god everyone needs to get some faith in humanity back up sometimes people do nice things they don't want people to know that they do those nice things there's good things that happen in the world i swear i promise there's people doing good things for for good reasons if you go to countries right now that aren't capitalistic like north korea do you think north korea is prioritizing morals it's such an insane thing to say i can't imagine yes it isn't insane thing this thing how are you gonna pick north korea they are they literally are prioritizing morals what do you mean kim jong-un wouldn't he wouldn't let you do anything that's immoral oh because it's the worst example and it is the example someone just said it a twisted way you could actually say yes to that question fold it is the like for example like china is capitalistic in a lot of ways now right so like can i really use china i don't think i can and also china exists within a global market which is never would have thought you'd end up here from bell will use a guy talking about yeah talking about china what an adventure also capitalistic so that's why i chose not to use china or a middle eastern country i used north korea for specific reason i'm not really in the business anymore of trying to change reality i'm i don't want to change the the world uh well i do in a way but i i think that in order to change the world you have to acknowledge what it is sure and i think that so many people have intellectualized reality they're not even a part of it anymore intellectualized reality i'm inclined to agree with them on that actually yeah i guess yeah i get what he means i think i got what he means people like intellectualized means building a false framework of what you understand the world to be i think it's like the idea that there are so many people who are really in their own head that they're not even like fully participating in the world in a bubble of people agreeing with them on so many different things and actions and claims and stuff that when they step out into any other place they're like baffled and they lose their minds like what the fuck is happening here and it's like you kind of built up all of your walls and uh yeah you've you've written yourself a version of earth that just doesn't even exist uh with values that don't agree with you and unfortunately it'll um it'll like cauterize them away from any kind of exposure to things they need to they need to see and understand well kind of like the point that he's making of grappling with the world as it is in order to move forward and solve problems rather than being like well it shouldn't be this way it's like well it is so now what now how do you move forward yeah okay so much they've they've there are so many levels of abstraction away from just the simple truths of reality that they don't even live in the same world that you do and that's a yeah this is a huge problem online everyone's living in different worlds uh while where people live in these parallel realities where they have fundamentally irreconcilable perceptions of the world and any given fact uh on a situation it's kind of fascinating it's the problem now i'm not talking about whether something is good or bad what i enjoy doing is being able to see what is and then be able to predict what will happen because of that and how things will go i i enjoy that i like listening to what is this soundtrack skyrim yeah okay yeah i like it yeah i like the rain it's nice and chill the best part of that game is the soundtrack i i that that's what i want to do just our people living in their own at little like those don't know we did a whole stream yesterday the regards Bethesda games it was yeah you should yeah yesterday was comprised of one activity which was if it should be there yeah we had remember the twist remember the twist my goodness the twist is incredible we got to the end unironically this is this will i mean molly you were saying this before we started that'll be like it's it's gonna rival the boogie stream for this year yeah it'll it'll rival all timers as well it'll be up there and it's in january so every it came out so early all of the other e-faps are gonna have to try really hard the year is uh august to august yeah early in the year in the middle of the e-fap year okay e-fap we're on the e-fap calendar i missed the twist what was it you don't want to be told the twist you can find uh links to it in discord or reddit maybe but um for now it's i've edited it ready to go so that the fucking internet break you know it's sealed but uh it's in a it was an 11 and a half hour thing so i gotta upload it as soon as we're done here i'll start uploading it it's gonna be a little late but it'll be up like coach ambers oh that's always the case right i don't think anybody thinks that pure capitalism is good and of course we don't think that that's why we have socialist systems like social security nobody thinks socialist systems like so look all right we're just let's get back to the let's get back to power well well wait is that i don't think that's controversial if you say it's a social program and if i'm not gonna yeah yeah that would be accurate he said a socialist system it's an interesting way to put it yeah this a lot of people do well a lot of people don't think about it in the first place so it's not really worth taking and taking that in the consideration the use of ai is not necessarily considering things people don't think about all right um well i think about things that not as though all the time you wonder not all who wonder are lost am i right no wonder are lost even if you believe that ai being trained by other tools is actually sorry by other pictures that you don't own is theft because there are plenty of people and i'll give you two different examples amirath and susu who do only fans content who have an ai bot that can generate nudes of them for people that try to talk to them our world is so cooked um what did we have what is okay there are only fans of bottles that have i didn't even know this that they have balls that generate nudes of them to be provided to the people who would think they're talking to them and are probably talking to either a bot or somebody who works for this is like jesus cyberpunk it's cyberpunk but it's not cool we don't have robots and like i can't have a machine gun in my liver so this is i can't be robocop i can't be adam jensen i just there's no neon or gold it's just it's just cringe it's all cringe beyond just the image creation i imagine those bots have like a chat component that's designed to interact with these people as if it's amaranth and then sort of process requests and it's like okay you want this image to talk to an actual just i hate to theorize but i'm assuming that's how it is like where do you want me and what things you want me to be holding and then the ai just fucking forms it all it's like uh it's so weird you were probably very close to to what it actually i didn't know this was happening and i feel like either i just why were the flying cars what does it do for a what does it do for a person but they like i'm interacting directly with her she said every dude's that their friend is like oh that's ai that's not her that's he knows do you think the person just goes fuck you it's real to me it's real to me they're all wrestling fans did she uh did she back like 58 million dollars in the last like few years from that yeah the she should be able to take her pants off whether not the stat that it was something like in four years she had made 57 million dollars yeah she's super wealthy off of it she's probably got several bots running you know man that's so weird yeah is that theft well no because they trained the bot with their own content so whenever you're saying ai and generative ai you're painting with such a wide brush that you're also including things that don't necessarily fall into that category i agree with this no it's an interesting hypothetical a lot of people say that it's stolen artwork without permission it's like so would then if we if all the sources were paid for all provided by a single artist that's using the ai themselves would that then solve the problem or not it's it's i guess uh because part of the conversation as well as the idea that nobody got the choice whether to opt in or opt out like that it's already like for some people it's already done right every single thing that they've ever made is now incorporated into these models and it's like well okay well then i guess yeah what but then again it once again draws back to the conversation of what what do we believe that fair use slash inspiration is versus theft and is that a line that needs to be redrawn now in response to this new technology yeah now you have you have artists now who are building measures to forcibly opt out like they call it poisoning their images basically yeah so like an ai system will misinterpret the data somehow i i don't know how it works exactly but it basically makes it so an ai will always incorrectly skew the image and creating something new like a filter that you put on top of the image well i think uh something that is a form of digital right management right yeah i guess sorry yeah by the sounds but and that's a way to walk down to the ai's or yeah so they won't they won't be able to see what it is because they're reading it you're right they're not using eyeballs so when you're looking at it optically uh you see this you know uh field but when you look at it it's just a church right and everything's a church so everything that they uh that the ai is pulling out of it is church yeah it's like putting a kaleidoscope on an ai if it had eyes basically i think it's like just to sort of skew their vision of what the original image is so they think it's a different thing that they're ultimately making yes uh yeah pretty interesting every single ai tool that's ever existed has been trained with things that are not that thing paying for fake nudes is wild wrong those model stole images how do you know how you don't know how the tech works i find it how did a little bit of music that this is the conversation that's being had with like this nice skyrim music this is sort of his this is his aesthetic i think i think for all the streams he has oblivion or skyrim or some Bethesda music going makes sense it's nice and chill and i also i'm mostly fine with the whole like whether or not he's got the exact facts correct it's more introducing the ideas and see what people think of them right like would it it goes from being is it okay that she's doing that too okay but would it be okay if that were the case because it's not too far from reality i can totally buy that there are people being fed ai images of nudes to keep them in a sense that they're having a direct and intimate conversation with a girl which i just i just feel bad and the funny thing is that's just a beginning it's all just a beginning we're gonna go way further than that they steal images you are wrong you are one thousand percent wrong one thousand percent wow that's like ten times more wrong than being completely wrong yeah how really wrong sure ain't going to my stream okay that's that's a good good attempt yeah i to be fair that's that's funny like i'll debate you come to my stream i i appreciate the hustle sure and that's the difference is my door is open where do you a coward so did not consent having your work being used by their algorithm and then being replaced by it i can can you explain to me what the difference is between that and another person who is a better artist than the original artist who is making art based off of that original artist art can you explain the difference to me because like i don't see so this is something that people have super chat about as well the the skill development element and i was thinking this is something that needs to be like workshopped i think as an analogy but if you had like a rock climber who's an expert and they're training someone up and then that person creates like a robot and infuses them with all of the data of all rock climbers and then climbs that rock better than any with his robot it would be like that's amazing that you've just created this crazy machine that does all these different things you're not a rock climber though yeah yeah and they'd be like well but i i've achieved this and it's like not quite it's a different and and i don't know if depending on who you talk to that would be offensive or not offensive because they might be completely fine with the idea of being considered something else right see it ai had to learn to remove watermarks and that's blatant theft and i oh yeah that that's interesting isn't it if if you train your ai to remove watermarks you're like and that's one of the one of the ai that we're talking about like uses it it does when they were promoting it or marketing it or showing it off or whatever it was a demo one of the things they said was and it'll remove watermarks and it feels like that is just kind of uh saying you know what you expect this to use for and in that case if you are marketing your product that's something that will remove a watermark in order to steal it right like that is a very clear um i don't know mission statement that i can take and say yeah i don't i don't appreciate that i want to also kind of like okay sure yeah sure um nobody cares though right that's not not a great response yeah people clearly do not enough people care i guess is what you would change that to to make any difference but i still don't think that that's i mean it only takes a few people to yeah i was gonna say like they can maintain the programs right so it doesn't even every person who does care hopes that they can make more people care by making more people aware of it right and that goes the same for every single value everyone has all over the earth really you hope to imagine i imagine the line is drawn at like 50% where like if you have more people complaining about it than people ingesting the content then all of a sudden it's a problem but not before that let's all be right back because really shitty moral framework though i don't know where he draws the line i just i figure that's like the place to draw it in lieu of him actually saying so but if that's what he's saying right like i it's only moral if everybody disagrees with it then that's not very moral is it not quite i don't think it's moral is what he's getting for us is that it change won't happen there's a problem there's a lot of words that uh sometimes i want to blame english but i also want to blame asmigold for the use of uh silhouettes if somebody found out that somebody used ai it's not going to decrease their enjoyment about it it might it might yeah it could because um the nature in which how a thing was made it can have all kinds of effects on your enjoyment i think or it might have zero i completely understand it sometimes it can make you like it more sometimes it can make no difference sometimes it can i think that what we've seen online we've seen many examples of this i don't know how many people in chat have but like people posting ai works being like hey man this is if this this is if west anderson made lord the rigs and then those people like fuck you go away it's like jeez what what i do nothing is like get out of here ai i mean uh someone's pointed out an example remember secret invasions intro that fuck that show off next time that was probably the biggest controversy even though it had fucking draxob that was probably a bigger controversy yeah secret invasion like that that was i feel like that doomed the show before it doomed it like with its writing before before episode six came out you know i was already fucked because of that intro just because you say something is stolen doesn't mean that everybody else in the world has to care about it no i don't but they might very much care about it and then more people will care about it and then eventually you care so much about it in the case of i feel james summaton is really good actually as an example he runs away and deletes the whole channel which was an immense effect he's gone yeah even try to come back and apologize and it went so badly he ran away again like he's like oh shit that didn't work i think he said something like um i'll come back and apologize when i'm less emotionally compromised or something when i think what everyone seems to believe is just like there's not much you can say other than yep you got me it's about it that you i guess you could say sorry i understand what you're saying but you still have to have other people care about it in order for it to be true and so you've made it you've made a judgment oh this is stolen let me give you an example i'm living on stolen land the native americans had this and then we came over here and killed them and now it's our land well we're not going to be giving that back and at the end of the day nobody gives a shit i don't even i'm not even people do give a shit i don't want to touch this with a fucking 10 foot pole okay like this is not the example i would have gone with doesn't act what a terrible terrible example like i okay but out of respect for you mauler there is no function maybe i'm you know it's fine for you there are people who care there are there are people who would disagree about the nature of it they're they're off the amount of people care quite a bit yes yes information will create that will not change anything everybody knows it's true and nobody cares and if you think that you do go give your house away to a native american family and leave the what the fuck are you talking about this is what we were talking about with a binary of caring like if you care that you do that it's like well no you could care and not do that that doesn't mean you have to do that in country but nobody's going to do that because you don't really care that's i just i i fundamentally disagree you only fundamentally disagree to present yourself as if you are sympathetic to the situation while simultaneously benefiting from its existence that's just the way that it is is stealing okay if you don't sell it it's it depends i agree with that is stealing okay if you don't sell it's like well it's stealing okay is a complicated one in general mm-hmm so people are targeting specific artists and using their names as actual prompt phrases to create the art ai just meshes a bunch of pieces together it's not creating anything new uh a human being can also create art from pure creative individuality and an ai algorithm cannot exist without thousands of art that it scrapes um yeah you're right i i'm not sure if i understand what your point is there are always going to be people that are trying to define what art and what art is and what is art what art is not excuse me nobody has a monopoly on telling anybody else what art is it doesn't matter what you believe art is because like for example i've seen a lot of modern art and modern art looks like my room it looks like a garbage on my table but somebody else doesn't think that really the picture of his his room is kind of it is kind of actually yeah there's a lot of fascinating things to draw from it i there's a story that's told in that piece i i guess i agree with him on the subject of everybody's got an opinion on what art is and the even though i i might completely disagree with the category we have the most like expensive artworks in the world are things that i'm like what that's barely dissimilar from a pile of poop on the floor like i i i understand this point of view sure i'm back and i'll go back to the example that i used before of jackson pollock it took me a long time to understand the value or understand that other people see value in something like a jackson pollock painting that's the guy to understand that people find value in it it took me like an instant like the speed of thought because like someone just said i find value well no it's like they if someone says i find all i think jackson pollocks really interesting and i really value his work and what it means to me and i'm like all right well yeah under that uh pay of view i suppose that there's no difficulty in understanding people getting value in everything but even we would still have have equivalence of that being like you know people saying for example like oh it's so i just i love Thor Love and Thunder i adore that movie which would be like really you know i can i get it tell you why they well they can try i suppose i just i love true yeah i'm trying to imply like they would just say uh good vibes because they wouldn't have much meaning or substantive things to say about the movie because there's so little in it but at the same time i i guess i get that anyone could love anything it did like all the squiggly lines a long time to figure out why well i think he's probably talked about a span of years that like covers him being a kid where he would be like well it's just which would be fine well you might you might even i don't i don't i almost don't think this is that unreasonable i think people can look at jackson pollock be like what the fuck and then almost don't believe that people actually value anything in it and that it's all done through like high-end art stuff like there's business shit going on that everyone's telling each other it's worth something but then you actually meets a person who says like no jackson pollock's paintings as that guy we covered right it's like it's a fusion of pure emotion it's a delving into the human soul when you hear that you're like oh okay i'm sure there are people in the chat right now who would uh say unequivocally that they don't like modern art or doesn't matter it's stupid or whatever um so you know and i find quite a lot of value in uh lots of modern art but i i absolutely agree with that we we throw that up there are some modern art pieces that are really fucking cool then there are some we're just like what the fuck what is this this is just like it's fucking around you're taking the piss and then there's those lore words you have to read the book and then you can appreciate the art you're like okay fine i guess there's something about standing in front of uh jackson pollock and realizing that it is in fact 12 feet wide and 10 feet what do people say this i i no it's fine you go ahead no it's fine i don't i guess it's just i i guess i guess the fact that it's a big canvas that i i don't know i guess i don't assign the the same like being impressed with it that a lot of other people do sure look it's there can be simple things to it's all right yeah go ahead yep i'm just gonna say is it's not that i mean that the canvas itself is big oh look at that it's about the fact that you are are seeing a monumental effort of work and you're realizing the many um you know days months years that go into it uh you're talking earlier about the the soul of the artwork right and realizing that and kind of uh connecting to the art through that that's what i mean is standing in front of this piece of artwork can often be the difference between seeing it on a computer screen going uh it's not super impressive and then standing in person going oh no that is very impressive and you know for pollock at least i think that that is something that tends to be kind of missing from the the discussion yeah i um i don't think if i was in front of a jackson pollock piece i would i'd think any more of it which is totally fine too page it's subjective so i don't think that you're in any position to say what is or is not art because i can guarantee you you might think that you know there's a lot of people that go to church that probably don't think that your background pictures aren't that what what are we doing specifically people who go to church they go to church might not think your background picture is art i don't think this is a surprise to anybody that's yeah but they'd be wrong and retarded like i don't know like this okay well that's the thing that about this statement it's like if he's just establishing there everyone's got a different opinion on what is art it's like yep they don't everyone can equally say what is it isn't art not that no one can i guess that's a perspective thing but yeah i imagine you'd say yes i agree file pictures aren't but i bet that you probably do and and that's just and and you're not wrong and neither are they because art is subjective and i wouldn't put it like that in some way in some ways so if people say ai is art then it is the issue isn't defining art it's the theft of scraping thousands of art pieces on the net without feeling that d values are if it's the only requirement is it is what when you say it is yeah i'm fine with that under the pressure of just saying i draw meaning from this thing you're like yeah sure but saying something is an artwork or whatever i just i feel like we have to reduce the category a little bit before it just becomes everything and everything anything about your scent to then replace the artist an artist can create without seeing other art an ai generator cannot that's actually a really interesting thought i think that humans can generate art technically without any kind of visual or oral exposure to anything but a bot can't or at least bots as they currently stand can't well what about an artist that doesn't what that creates after seeing other art like i think that you're kind of talking around my point if an artist is able to use something as an inspiration to create their own thing that thing that they've created is derivative of the thing that originally exists and so on a fundamental level you're saying that ai isn't art because it's derivative and is this yeah but again not a binary no i think it's probably about the process and what goes into it right well but and and still the if we're gonna say like directly copy and pasting something versus drawing it from memory versus thinking about the idea of the thing and drawing it these are all different levels of derivative right that you wouldn't say that they're all derivative i feel like that's not very useful it's also not art because it is derivative do you see kind of my point here please explain what inspiration is and how yeah i see his point i just don't agree with it he's saying that the all of them are derivative sort of if you're gonna say that ai art is derivative because it's made of different pieces of art when remember his point from earlier is that humans do the same thing they create art from art they've seen previously or inspired by it's just that that's the fundamental distinction difference that a lot of you that's like almost the fundamental of the discussion on ai art now it's comparable to an algorithm uh it i think it depends right so i actually don't think that the human brain is that much different from a computer now the human brain is infinitely more advanced than a computer but i think that it's fundamentally the same thing in a lot of ways um so i don't believe in this like uh that's a like kind of like a other thing right is that whether or not you agree or disagree with that idea it's probably gonna have a big impact on what you think about this topic yeah um well for example rags you mentioning um synthetic people right in fiction being replicants that there would be computers that are essentially they've replicated so hard to human brain you can barely tell the difference and then if someone swaps the sentiment of to in a way a human brain is just a really complex computer so i i i guess yeah this is all again a context thing because when you just state the human brain is essentially just a computer i could see everyone being like that's retarded then i could also see everyone being like hmm yeah kind of it really depends on that's all i'm learning from this whole thing is how much everything is couched in all of the language and accounting for everyone's interpretations of the words you're using yes yeah it's like we were talking about earlier if you just boil everything down to electrical impulses like a circuit board has transistors and capacitors on it transistors direct a flow of electricity one to another that sort of represents a choice and then you have a capacitor that either holds a charge or doesn't which is basically a true or false statement yes or no and like if you you can say a brain is basically doing that same sort of thing on that level but he's saying he's doing a weird thing here where he's saying they're basically the same but the brain is infinitely more complicated like if it's infinitely confusing i assume he just means that my pc is infinitely more complicated than a calculator from 20 years ago and then my brain is infinitely more complicated than my computer currently is you know i mean like that they're all scaling um right but i get what you're saying it's like well if you think they're the same but also one of them is way more complicated than it sounds like they're not the same and then and then you know there are some people arguing from a sense of like there's things you're missing from a human brain in a computer replicating it you'll always be missing sort of thing but then again that's what free was saying it comes down to a fundamental belief at this point about what the human brain even is um it's funny he's he's said this to aid in clarity when i think this is only going to draw people into further camps that are like what they can't say this right like in the cases of our brain what is directing the direction of those you know electrical impulses why is electricity flowing from one part of the brain to the other what's sort of guiding it you know in the case of a computer it's like mouse clicks it's or a boot process or whatever yeah right well that that's it right you know what the nature of human consciousness is it's like yeah in the case of human brain is some superseding controller that's like at the point of the infinite or beyond the infinite you know if we can just figure out the nature of the human brain and the replication of human consciousness we can then decide whether to support pal willed yes you know oh well because it comes from your mind that it's so much different than a computer most people's minds work in ways that computers work no yes they do computers connect information together and that's what your mind does as well well shit whenever yeah it's a little little simple i mean well i guess i guess he's right you think about things you synthesize information together to come to a coherent thought that's fundamentally what ai does as well in a very abstract sense well you can't well if it's in a very abstract sense and we're talking about something different this is what i mean i think when you get to these conversations like those little abstracts weirds or whatever the words being used like that i was just like yeah i feel like that's doing a lot of leaping because i'm someone who believes that eventually we'll be able to create an ai that no one will be able to tell is not a human being interacting that's the worry with chat gpt and stuff already but that at the same time it's like would i then consider that diss entirely similar to a human brain or not which again i feel like is the realm of what soma was hyper trying to address and figure out i understand the conversation it's just that uh i feel like maybe this is a little clunky as a thought process and it's going to make everyone even more confused on what he's trying to say i'm sort of finding art you know for discussion i'm not the thing is like i'm not mad at the people that are disagreeing with me i'm not mad at them i'm not like i'm like i'm not mad at you i'm not i'm not like this isn't something that i'm upset about i'm just having a conversation about it cool i don't know why other people are getting so mad to be honest with you you haven't feel it together yet i was gonna say i feel like maybe you have a little piece that together yet man he he does surely know like a lot of people take very grand umbridge to this because it it represents like a serious blight on the world to them depending on their particular views um i mean like yeah like the like he's always gonna have you know stuff like based on what he does yeah he probably doesn't have to worry about any of this stuff but some people actually have like a stake in this well i mean i'm not even saying necessarily you have to have a stake in it you could you could just be worried from a philosophical point of view about the future of humanity and stuff about two yeah i guess that counts as having a stake in it like i was like yeah i guess the future of humanity yes but there it is you're basing on a level of people aren't gonna understand well if people don't understand it that doesn't make me wrong i think you're probably well you can work on you know yeah define things and you can explain what you mean when you say the words that probably will help a bit you're really wrong about the brain being a computer what about it is wrong as a paramedic uh it's not necessarily true the way to think about uh q computers are binary integrated they have to think and do's and don'ts brains have multiple chemicals a lot of this is gonna come down to like the technicalities of different processes and how well yeah because the response to anyone's uh assessment of what is in a brain that a computer can't recreate the response would be could it simulate it and then usually the answer would be like well if yes then how would you know ultimately and then what is but this is almost going into theory about whether or not we could be simulations and you're like ah there's too much from a brain all at once i can't take it ways to each other right you're right that the brain isn't the exact same thing as a computer but i said that your brain functions in a lot of same ways that the computer does a lot of same ways you said connects information so they're basically the same that's true it's not the exact same thing and i think that in 200 years somebody will be able to make a computer that thinks like a human brain i think that it's inevitable to be honest with you i can't imagine anybody thinking that it won't happen then i kind of agree on function but it's not really the same for me sorry so somebody else responds and they say a crowbar is a tool that's no excuse to use it to burn the house i don't know if i've ever had that on watch together before it wants you guys being real weird today that it won't i'm gonna refresh my page i shall wait for a bit look jordan peterson would have an aneurysm look at asma gold's room yes never mind the discussion just the room remember loves to clean their room okay yeah mobsters clean their room and love their mommas like jordan i said mob oh i thought you said mobsters uh mobsters clean their room hermit crab certainly clean their room because they it's on their back i think i think mobsters probably do as well a lot of them uh probably yeah not when they're super into the coke and they take all the coke and then they let their room degrade and that's evidence that the coke is evil i want to make sure everyone understands that and also are you all reloaded yeah i didn't realize but i mean i'm good you're good then you're good what happened then i kind of agree on function but it's not really the same okay so somebody else responds and they say a crowbar that's them for that it's good it is kind of like this is way too complicated it's just like okay fine i think he realized like this isn't helping so i'll just move on to this bar is a tool that's no excuse to use it to burgle houses is it same goes with ai it's a thief's tool and when it uh so what's interesting already all burglings is house it involves a house in a sense because burgle comes from the german for house thief so this is a very bad choice to compare because it's so you can tear this apart like a crowbar is a tool that's no excuse to use burgle houses it's like okay but a crowbar could also just like you could use anything to burgle you don't need a you know i mean like i could use like a fucking a gameboy to smash a window if i really wanted to i guess um and then saying like it's a thief's tool the ai like according to analysis it's more so about how we use it so yeah like it's it should not be acceptable and then and then it comes into the complication like but what if i'm stealing something back what if i'm stealing just like that's not what it's like i know but it's just you don't want to make an analogy that makes things more complicated and it should not be acceptable if ai piracy is okay the media piracy also is why should i pay for something that's stolen from artists circular reasoning the guy responds back um a crowbar is a tool that can be used by thieves ai is a tool that can also be used by thieves ai can be used in many ways most artists who complain about ai art theft are furry artists who can't charge $15 for their commissions anymore there i said it i can't believe of fur how many furries got mad at me today it was crazy nothing's original anymore it's probably a lot of artists i don't i don't know what furries thing is being that i i don't see i think it's probably a lot of artists might be concerned in some way yeah furries is just weirdly narrowing it i mean yeah i think it's mostly just for funny it's probably just be like see we can dunk on furries that's an easy dunk you know those furries we're making them angry so it is an easy dunk that's you gotta you gotta get better representation okay in media you need more diversity anymore furries they're a bunch of fucking crazy cringe weirdos oh now it's buffering for me control all right hang on i need to refresh these models all right wow yeah i don't know it's strange i've never had uh i don't think i've ever had watched together buffer um who knows cool but it seems to be fine with me i reloaded and it worked fine so i have reloaded control arguments the person not the tool or the tool or the person yeah exactly by the way whoever makes like a good watch together you could you know you could there's you know if you're out there yeah you could someone could make like a a good watch together that has a non-shit ui design and you know pretty you know functions well and stuff like that there are like 15 alternatives and they're all remember that time we tried a bunch of them they were horrible they were all they were terrible and they just didn't do the basic thing there's one comment uh you're worth what anyone is going to give you anything else is just fantasy wow the philosophers on twitter today jeez i'm not even like assessing whether or not he's right just like a fun to be like what a lame quote it's so depressing like you're only worth what people willing to give you anything else is fantasy like damn have some self with you know believe in yourself and recognize your own value you don't need to get it from other people a lot of artists throughout history died in poverty i guess they weren't worth anything hey little girl with cancer i just want you to know that you're worthless because you're not base get a job losing good thing we have rich people to do the right thing and help her oh wait you're still in a fantasy land where those people are supposed to give their own money to make people happy that's not life that's fantasy what's happening here yeah the guy just so this person um is obviously totally fucking right um you know obviously like nobody has a uh you know the moral authority unless you have the government do it uh to uh just go take somebody else's money and give it to another person right that's just how it is and this is another response that a person has made obviously you're correct but your explanation wasn't great metaphors with physical items work better if an ai chef oh yeah i really like this example i wanted to show it to you guys uh if an ai chef existed and could make the best tasting meals instantly and for cheaper no one would ever pick a human chef or they would sign prime that's not true though i mean we actually talked about that with the rip a chef existing well so the thing about that what's happened uh that we've seen already and this is in a lot of sci-fi media too is that if people know that it's non-human the thing that's being created then they automatically don't want it they're just like get away from me it's like you wouldn't care if it's amazing it's like no the point is that as soon as they're made aware and they want to be aware they don't want to encourage they don't want to involve themselves in artificially created things you know it could be could be food could be artworks could be whatever have you you get you get a there's a group of people who will be averse to the synthetic people that's always portrayed in the sci-fi stuff right it's like yeah you disgust me because you're not you're you're a perversion of humanity that sort of stuff so yes if there was an ai chef that existed and you could make the best tasting meals instantly oh sure loads people would be signed up to get that food but not everyone a lot of people would be like i'll go with the humans like you know in star trek like there's a great value placed on manually making food yourself even though you know food is a limitless resource and it's all delicious i mean the whole being able to do it by hand owning an actual winery and that stuff has value it's still you know the real deal is always going to have some element of um genu whineness what was the word i'm looking for the having the quality of being genuine genu whinity genu whiner yeah but i was wondering if there was like like a version of the word genu whiner that was that was like a you know what i mean like genu authenticity yeah yeah yeah but but i was curious if there was like a specific like genu whiner point being but yeah the for lack of a better you know authenticity that comes with you know the real thing the actual getting a pan heating it up having a person there to you know smell it taste it make sure it's good the skill that goes into that and of course letting the personal element of is like yeah your kid's drawing is really shitty yet we know but we're still going to put it on the fridge because it you know it has a lot of sentimental value and it's good to the person to you know treat those things with value and to encourage them you know it's yeah and maybe when it comes to like creating dishes there's some cases where the ingredients are flawed and is the ai going to be able to detect and work around that like can you compare that can you equate an ai system to the eye of a chef or they they're able to look at a steak and it's just like oh you know what i'm gonna like cook this like an extra minute or like a minute less or something whereas like an ai is looking for certain signatures to make it switch from like a a binary state of like keep doing this thing or like do the next step in the cooking process like you need to consider like how sophisticated is the programming you know like what's it looking for what's the ai looking for when it's like cooking these things sometimes because they do cool tricks and stuff like that at certain restaurants but yeah in a general i mean yeah that could be another thing she'll like i guess an ai could do programs for the cool cool tricks too all sense this is true and that's what's so crazy about it as a chef agreed yeah exactly performance chefs are wow the assault bay there you go nobody likes that guy so that's you know kill two birds with one stone right there you go and so anyway uh that's completely different um is this a person who is okay this is another ardent disagreeer in chat why is it different data scientists here the tech doesn't steal images it just learns the natural distribution patterns that are representative of your descriptions the way that you say it makes me think that you're right and i i bet you're probably right but i don't have enough education in that to be able to say oh yeah it's so true yeah that's fair as far as i'm aware as well there's all kinds of ways the ai uh artworks you know they all have different systems behind them and they take from different sources it's hard to be definitively clamping down on any one topic or other i guess it's easier to do it by topic rather than by actually referencing any of these individual systems because most people aren't familiar with exactly how any of them work we're rather just talking about the theory but i think that you're probably right on that it doesn't matter how much an artist thinks their art is worth if people don't want to buy it it's the same with any other product like in relation to how much i guess they could sell it for sure but i just want to make sure that we're all okay with the the whole thing of like finding value in your own work is still very valuable good for you as an individual like i said he eventually mentions personal value versus market value which i really feel like would have helped if you had done that to begin with yes i it's as i said it's astonishing to me that like i'm getting any pushback for this it's just the truth and we all know it every day the youtubers are pretty work still don't get why i mean i don't think you should be astonished that you're getting pushback on this well didn't you say at one point that um uh he could have presented it better but that by presenting it the way that he did it got people angry and more infused into the conversation more aggressive you know like he's implying that there's a strategy to being less communicative to well people can get mad about me all they want uh i'm i'm totally okay with that so as chef makes food true an ai can follow a recipe whereas art is not exactly bound by rules and as it's pure inspiration as i said in previous statements ai or machine learning is completely based on copy and paste logic you're right in some things but detail is missing as you're saying to be fair okay so let's go ahead and address this so an ai is following a recipe which is created by copy and pasting what a human does i'm not sure that these two things follow ai and machine learning it's completely based on copy and paste logic yeah so this is the same thing right like i i don't know it's not humans can make art without ever seeing anything yeah but humans have seen things so like we're not but yeah but that's a bad bad then also some humans have not seen things so we're not talking about but we're talking about like well i imagine what he means is like if you look at a you know a cave painting it's like ah look at that you know there had to be a first one right um i guess you'd say well yeah but i mean they saw the deer or whatever they saw it and then they drew it on the cave yeah and and so that would be which i get which is an interesting point in terms of identifying that you know nowadays like if you exist now um then you've definitely seen a lot of art you've seen it you've definitely seen it just by existing and then there's the stuff that you like that is particularly interesting to you that then informs you know if you want to start drawing or painting the kinds of things you want to make um and then obviously there's the things that you just see naturally right a big part of being good as an artist is having good observational skills that you can look at things and think of ways to present them that are either you know lifelike or cartoonish but still bear some resemblance to reality but at some point you have to draw it back to the first person who decided to draw something ever um and they would have done it without having seen any art before made by humans well if then the that's the point is just the even even him looking at a landscape or a deer or whatever it's just it's just a reference imagery taken from something else and that's what it all is you're like oh but then what if it comes from a blind deaf person's imagination i'm sure there's a blind deaf artist out there oh yeah there's gotta be i'm sure they exist like you're talking about a theoretical like we've all seen things i mean maybe if you're helen keller or something like that sure or just a blind person you know that you can be blind there's a lot of blind people as far as i know it like you know not not a significant portion of the population but a lot of people and surely several of them are artists or at least dabbled general sense we've all seen things and the things that we see influence what kind of art we would make what is this what are we talking about draw a picture of something you've never seen yeah i can't well wait but i we do that a lot draw a picture of something you've never seen yeah unless it means you can ask someone draw something you've never seen and they'll be like okay and they just come up with something crazy yeah um because someone could be like yeah but okay so draw something you've never seen and you draw like a five-legged creature it's like yeah but that's just based off of four legged creatures where you've added one it's like okay so when you say draw something i've never seen you mean draw something that's not even within our universe because like in theory i guess i could still do that right like draw something i'm not even going with love crafting that some people are suggesting it's like i i mean if i drew i'm trying to think of like as long as it doesn't match any structure or creature in the universe known universe like it would count i guess yeah like you know like because people say gigas like if you go with alien like ah yeah but that's too legged too armed so that's close enough to a human that it's just a variation on that like yeah you'd want some frame of reference right like two arms okay but i also can't be two legs like are you just going to change it every time i draw something well yeah if i drew a massive tentacles then they're like wow that's just kind of like a weird octopus like so what what i don't really know what you mean then because uh if it can't be i guess lovecraft is the only answer because it would be have to be something that can't be described and it can only not be described because there's no reference to it in the our universe that could make it more understandable for a person yeah but at that point that just seems self-defeating as a like that doesn't add anything to the conversation like draw something that is is unrecognizable it's almost like saying draw something that can't be viewed you know how do you know what's unrecognizable like i'm thinking about like the example of somebody being blind and deaf like that's so much sensory input that's like being locked off but like presumably a person in that position could like still touch and feel things but is that enough to sort of inform them of like how to artistically create something you know like i don't know yeah i don't know um if it's just a matter of makes it like when you say make something it isn't recognizable it was like what do we mean like in the meta unrecognizable or like well here's drawing like i don't know what you've drawn or that i don't know you have drawn what about jackson pollock if if he showed you his paintings said i've drawn something oh sure yeah that's fair point yeah because it was what do i say to that like well that that's clearly the abyss like it was something i'm like i recognize that's a that's a swamp with a bunch of blood in it i recognize that that's that's a good point because in my example i was sort of thinking of art with some recognizable form to it but definitely of course like formless art abstraction of stuff yeah we've gone way into the theoretical that's what we do can't type into python python inspiration do you think that one day you will know okay can i also address what you said about the theoretical of course yeah and also i mean i can type into stable diffusion snake and it can make a snake if the point of an ai chef is to make food cheaper that's great but i think the argument is that ai chefs couldn't innovate like human chefs can an ai chef can't innovate like a human chef can so you're again you're getting attached to the minutiae of the process of a product i mean that might necessarily be that might necessarily be true in some instances uh because if uh if a if a construct of some kind an ai construct doesn't have the ability to taste or it doesn't have the physical receptors in order to do that then it literally might just lack the capability to do a thing in much the same way that a machine that doesn't possess like any like limbs cannot move it's something it literally cannot do yes yeah presumably it's all constructed so we know what it's capable of down to individual components right and programming yeah yeah like you're not gonna accidentally give a construct like that the ability to smell and taste like that's not gonna happen accidentally as you design it it will be something that you program it with a capability of knowing how it deploys those sensations though is another thing entirely if it did have them probably interesting thing about that though is the programmers would upon iteration iteration iteration try to simulate that it's like what you know say for example it's like how do you simulate an imagination in a human and it's like i don't know you picture a bunch of things but they're kind of weird versions and that's where you start and then you're like that's the result we've got it's like that's weird and it clearly has a problem of doing this and it's like we we cut that out and we add some more things in and you know that's just how they go for however many years until they actually generate something that we're like oh that looks kind of like what an imagination would be and you know that just goes the same for all the different things of humanity i think that a lot of people think are human restricted like um well uh inspiration i suppose sure imagine what the chef example like you have programmers who will just talk to a chef and be like okay what would you do with this dish it's like okay well i do this i do this i'd look at this ingredient i'd evaluate this and that and then i do that and then he would be just writing all that down in something called pseudocode which is basically just like a layman's english version of all the lines of instruction that are going to eventually be programmed into the final like code right so it's like if this condition is true do this do this do that and then you just transform each of those lines into an actual code that a that a program can recognize or like a in a language that a program can recognize right what i'm telling you is that here i i can make a chart and maybe this will make it easier for people the green part is the part that the customer cares about this part the customer doesn't care about so this entire sometimes oftentimes and i think that there's some things that all customers do actually care about in the process of making something that you could provide like an extreme hypothetical or just the reference to how in the west there's a couple of things that are just absolutely unacceptable yeah like in like in kitchens having any kind of mother and i forced her to make this under threat of death and torture yeah well right in the kitchen people consider that absolutely unacceptable i guess and and you'd be like they won't care if the food's good it's like they will though a lot of people just will this is a big old poop in the kitchen you're like ah fuck that i need in here yeah like yeah you guys know that it's like collectively as a society we all decided to stop watching the milcosby show if um i could imagine if somebody was i don't know if a chef he dropped a steak and let's say somehow he picks it up a literal millisecond after it hits the ground and then the robot comes along and says yep there is nothing wrong with this steak i think like a lot of people still wouldn't want to have that steak that fell on the ground yeah a lot of people will be able to recognize that that's okay just makes them feel icky yeah even if there is literally nothing wrong with it like that there is absolutely zero contamination maybe a subset of the robot's programing can scan the steak and be like oh no germ's detected and then it throws the steak away and gets a new one the five second rule you could program into robots the steak was recovered 4.6 seconds you know after you know after dropping just gonna keep an eye on chat after i say this but precious precious guests should make my precious cast here would you ever maybe could you imagine someone maybe eating some bread and looking at it and noticing that could very well be maggots in it and then they continue eating it i can imagine that happening yeah i i i do not i wouldn't do that myself no but i can imagine yeah i can imagine creatures who might eat maggoty bread for three stinking days i mean it's possible that such a thing exists yeah hmm is not relevant to a sale now there are exceptions like farmers markets and and again usually farmers markets people the reason why people go to farmers markets is because the end product is actually better uh it's actually not just because they want to support local farms it's also because that the product i don't i don't actually i don't actually know i think that those cross-actions would exist that's fine but we've also acknowledged the existence of the people who just do it to support the local people you see that all the time in all kinds of ways support your local creators support local people support fundamental like solve the earth people doing local things like yeah you see that all the time local businesses i disagree with the idea that they only ever do it if they think they're getting a better product as well like no not necessarily obviously yeah well i i'm happy to say there's a Venn diagram but there's there's those that exist that just do it to support the uh the stores or whatever better and it might taste better to them so this is the problem that people on twitter don't really seem to understand they think that this matters uh this is what people care about so i agree with yeah that's the fact that they care means well some people do care then because they do and then if you switch the goal post to okay some care it'd be like well not an insignificant amount in any way shape or form and especially because the only way to get it is to be a significant amount is for the insignificant to begin the fucking role isn't it exactly i mean if the attitude was that well if it's an insignificant amount you know based on my definition of significant or insignificant so don't even do anything yeah and i guess very little would be achieved ever if people follow through on that uh advice it's important i just i love that ms paint image like it's an academic powerpoint presentation or something there's just a big chunk of a pie chart it's like nobody cares about this part i well i don't think he would want to use presented that way i actually would prefer more people do that presenting because diagrams could be really helpful to understand what they see what they say oh for sure yeah i definitely see the utility and just sketching something out for people for sure it's just i just find it funny that's all knowing that a human know what they are doing especially with our with art to any degree art music you name it whereas with robots ai or whatever there is no admission of that truth you get what i mean i agree about the customer but if i'm in the court with sony over it they're going to care again you're right but i think the other side has a point and they're not it's not that their point isn't invalid it it's that their point is unpopular and it is not the resounding opinion of the general audience so you think that another element of this is that he derives opinion from action when we don't actually it's not quite the one-to-one as in like you clearly don't care because you bought x thing and a lot of people would tell you like i do care but i don't have like much choice in terms of what i can spend my money on because of how poor i am for example and they weigh it up in a moral sense and they choose what they consider to be the less of two evils what i'm trying to establish is just that the care exists it's just modified by other cares not necessarily don't care if yeah if like you're saying if you don't have as much money to spend then the price of a cheaper object is going to be almost entirely decided on the process that made it that way like someone said then you don't care enough well at that point that's that's down to the talking to the individual and whether or not you even agree and whether or not you would make the same decision in the same uh circumstance you know this kind of comes down to would you steal a loaf of bread to feed your family it's like i mean probably yeah absolutely i'm selfish and i have a self-centered worldview i think that most people have what i refer to and i think this is it's not what i refer i didn't invent this i think that other people have referred to this as well uh they have a self-referential worldview so everything in their life and their values and opinions and everything that they think is referring back to their own beliefs and their own life so if things are not beneficial for them then that doesn't matter they don't care about it if it is then they do care about it and so everything in their life and all of their opinions and actions are self-referential i think you should have said if it affects you in a significant way you care about it if it doesn't you don't yeah because yeah there there are things that just don't at all affect me in any way and want to hear about them i'm like oh i'm glad that exists yeah that's i mean how many times have you learned about a new animal that it just like lives on the other side of the world in the jungles of asia and you it doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever and then someone's like hey have you heard about the kichiki cheeky bird i'm like no i haven't and then you see him you're like oh that's i'm glad that that exists it was most funny is what we got many super chats that relate to extinct animals and we're just like oh wow look at that it's like that animal's not even alive why do you care like what like i don't know he's neat yeah even if i had no interaction with a kichiki cheeky bird i feel like if i saw a picture of it i'd be like oh that looks cool yeah it's like just so you could you could tell as you open up the the picture and look at it you're like yeah yeah i with a name like that i know he'd need to look like that yeah he i can tell this is asking the way yeah that is so a kichiki cheeky bird if i haven't someone said uh and then you forget about it almost immediately and it's like i've forgotten more things that i care about than i care about i mean i i'm not gonna stop learning about things and enjoying things on the risk of i won't on my death bed remember it well it could be tomorrow the one of you guys tell me about some franchise that i should be invested in it and then a week later i'm more invested into the most franchises and it's like yeah and at the same time it could be a movie that i said was really awesome you know in two years time i've forgotten most of it and i'm like oh shit yeah i don't really care about that yeah all the time yeah there's also have value just because they don't remember them for a very long time if the picture of the kichiki cheeky bird only gives me joy for four minutes and then i actually do forget about it is like well i'm glad that i had that little like hey that was nice that was fun well yeah especially when compared to um oh did you know the old richie down in the store he actually um he he bought a briefcase today you're like i don't i don't care like okay okay fine i just you know it's fine i guess i care about it i'd be interested i'd be like well oh like why you like why did you tell me this what this is a fairly mundane well that's the that's the interesting thing it's like why'd you bring that up what's going on and if if only to prove that this things that i could say that you don't care about i have accidentally proved that you care about everything i say because they're not referencing a principle they're not referencing an ideal they are referencing what they want to do you're a nihilist i want to do my principles my ideals though that's a strange way to word it also i hesitate to call anyone a nihilist i just say the the i could understand why people would would fear that we're entering nihilism with some of the stuff that you said it's like the fuck you it's all meaningless nobody makes a difference nobody matters until the market decides you do it feels very defeatist almost like oh yeah yeah it's not an attitude that i would want to have or one other and he would say like whoa no no no and then he talked about like the proactive steps to make in a environment like that but like i said i understand how people could get there but i wouldn't call this nihilism what he said he i think he would prefer that we call him a realist self-centered mean very there's a lot there's a lot of cynicism that gets flagged as nihilism when they need to be parsed you know oh and i'm not is it better to be a comedy for instance you know is it's better to be a cynicist or a nihilist cynicism a cynicist i think yeah but at the same time nihilism is just like you don't like you think we're just all on a downward trajectory and there's no hope and like there's no that's pass them having ambition i would i thought nihilism was that nothing means anything it's all me yeah it's like nihilism is like nothing matters and cynicism would be like oh well i guess my my definitions are off that's that's pretty much what i was getting at yeah nothing means anything like what's the point in having any sort of ambition to to do anything if everything sucks well what what you wait for with nihilism is and so like as in taking that where do you go next you know you that's what the you want to ask the individual they might say nowhere because nothing means anything they might also go into absurdism or existentialism or one of the other bonus boys that can be drawn out of experiencing nihilism for a little bit but you know what i guess what i'm trying to say is don't worry if you're a nihilist we don't judge you everyone's welcome here if you know if you're a nihilist it doesn't matter so don't worry about it is true a lot of people i know and interact with i'm not interested in people trying to pinpoint down my viewpoint on things my viewpoint is not somewhat interested in that yeah i'm decently interested in people understanding what i think and why i think it i think part of i mean it's really helpful if you're in this line of work that we do especially because we're sort of in a way we're if you're a professional opinion giver then it probably is quite important that people you want people to understand you right i think it's important that people understand me um sure all i will say about that is that there is a balance in one's head though of sometimes you want to engage in the aggression and kirt and like almost blunt deliveries to actually make people sort of snap into listening to you uh he was mentioning that earlier but at the same time yeah communication you know it's like it's a bit of a tight rope sometimes sometimes you want to be like you know what i'm just gonna fucking say it how it is and it actually like gets through to people better than what what's all my call over intellectualizing something like in non-artistic communication you definitely want to be clearly understood i think all the time but like you know with art you want to lead well what i'm interpretation like it could be this thing it could be that thing what i'm saying is if for example a dinosaur is heading to the house and we're there john and i'm like all right you need to understand a dinosaur is heading here and we need to run now i could i could see myself being like no that won't work because you're not even gonna believe me you're gonna be like what the fuck you're talking about a dinosaur so instead if i just grab you instead of fucking dinosaur you just like i go aggressive and quick and then i just start dragging you out it's like that's actually better communication even though conventionally speaking it would be worse right right like depending on the situation but i mean not like the dinosaur heading towards us right now we're fine okay springy soul the truth is what's relevant and that's what i think people don't understand and what i like to do is i like to show examples of that truth other people like to talk about how the world should be and how they act and how their friends act well that's nice but nobody cares it doesn't really matter because again that's again self-referential how would it does he think that like a billion people have to care about something before it matters or like what this is i almost wish we could strike from his ability to use uh nobody cares or nobody matters like we have to throw them out and he has to say something else because i feel like it's only making him harder to understand important to see like i was saying earlier it seems to be like rather than a fixed number of people if the people complaining exceeds the amount of sales then it's a problem whatever those numbers may be so it's like a rate i don't know like i mean i'm just saying like i assume that's where the line is drawn if he's not gonna say exactly where the line is himself like that it would seem to be that would be the assumption to make you know on that and to look at what are you doing what is the world doing not what are you doing and so we're talking about hypotheticals i don't like talking about hypotheticals we do i wouldn't say nobody though there's never a nobody there's never an everybody so then stop using those fucking words say those things also there are instances where you'd use those words they definitely are they're useful but i think that it is a vast minority of people that nobody can eat their own head as was pointing out in team america so there you go i'm gonna be proven wrong by that when someone fucking clones themselves and eat oh god damn it really care about these things and i don't think that it is in any way shape or form a majority and i don't even think that it's remotely close i think that less than five percent of people care about it do you believe in trying to give a shit ton of fucking people and it can become if but the don't you see already though it you like five percent of people cared you're like that could easily become ten percent and then twenty percent five percent is five percent is one in twenty because that could be explained by the fact that the other 95 don't care after discovering it or they haven't heard about it yet we don't know because the stats don't tell us that part i'd only if i think i can which you can't but more and more people are concerned with how the products they buy are consumed or made why because the reason why people want organic food it's because it's organic it's because it's it's created in a way that they feel is more healthy that's that it's a higher quality product they're not buying organic food because they like they have some like moral feeling about it some people do they don't have to say it he's about to say some people do yeah he's about to say it it's literally a whole industry but the majority of people do it because they believe it's healthier yes at least one percent do it okay the thing is this is what's making this so difficult he's like let's begin with no one cares about the process and then someone says like well this is proof that they do and then he's like no it's only proof that some people do it's like you said nobody now i said some people now you'll say that you've said some people the whole time it's like well then what because it gets really communicator when you're in the realm of some it's just it almost feels like a matter of you can't even disagree because if you said five and the next guy says 10 next guy says 15 i guess all of you are saying some people are buying it because it's a better and higher quality product so i think i don't think you can use that it's more healthy it has less preservatives it has these different reasons it tastes better yes so i i don't think the uh i don't think that's an example i'll read the rest of it oh okay food to go so that i'm actually being beneficial to the customer yes i believe that the end customer believes that it's beneficial the end customer if you were going to ask a hundred people of why they buy organic food and you ask them the question do you think that the food that you buy that is organic is either healthier and or tastes better than the food that is non-organic i bet you would get a hundred people saying that they think it is because they think it's how many how many have you asked not going to get a hundred people if you don't ask that many yeah what's the size a hundred people say yes yeah it's a probably every proposition i've got a bit of a brain blast on this whole um they believe it's better for them it's like so that's a if we can convince people that they so let's take the dark souls clone that's like worse but has most of the components and he's like most people happy so they just don't care even if it's stolen everything it's like all we need to do then is change the rhetoric from this is stolen and thus unethical