O Zubalaihmanashayi Dhanirajim Bismillahirrahmanirrahim Salamunalaikum and welcome to tonight's live show on Imam Hussein TV Unfortunately throughout the ages there's been a disturbing topic as it were of wife beating, emotional abuse that women have suffered being chained, whipped, punched, locked up in the kitchens It's progressed throughout the decades, centuries and so on and so forth It is something that we cannot be escaped as it were from Every community, every race, every religion, colour, creed has faced this issue and it faces this issue continuing as well Islam and Muslims as well Numerous women have been abused, humiliated, publicly and at home Issues with their in-laws, cousins, father-in-law, husbands and so on and so forth However, according to some men, does the Holy Quran sanction this? Is there a verse that actually allows this of wife beating? With me tonight, we're joined once again with Dr. Syed Ahmad Naqshwani Thank you once again for joining on this particular show It's unfortunately a worrying issue, one that certain communities and I think perhaps all Muslim communities do not want to discuss and project for feeling of shame, dishonour, humiliation, embarrassment and so on and so forth So, without further ado, let's go quickly straight into Surah Nisar verse 34 which is the all important verse as it were because a lot of people will look at that verse and say Well, this is what your holy book says This is why I am allowed to do this It's justified and so on and so forth Let's really dwell into each area of this particular verse I'm going to read out the verse itself and what I've done is I've dissected it into a number of areas So the first part is men are in charge of women by right of what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend for maintenance from their wealth That's the first part Second part So righteous women are devoutly obedient guarding in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard and this is the all important part now but those wives from whom you fear arrogance first advise them then if they persist, forsake them in bed and finally strike them but if they obey you once more seek no means against them Indeed, Allah is ever exalted and grand Sayyidna, for the viewers' attention also for myself how would you explain this particular verse which is verse 34 of Surah Nisa Well, the wife beating verse is always seen as probably the most controversial verse I would say in the Holy Quran Controversial for Muslims and non-Muslims Absolutely Because if you're a Muslim with a particular epistemology, a particular worldview particular moral framework by which you want to live your life and which you believe the religion of Islam discusses and has ordained for you then when you see a verse of the Holy Quran saying and then beat them you begin to ask yourself a question that is this what God intended because none of us would ever want to see our mothers or our wives or our sisters or our daughters beaten black and blue and so when one looks at such an eye of the Holy Quran one begins to reassess their understanding of God their understanding of religion their understanding of that which they were raised with from a young age when you find that some ladies in the Muslim community have become atheists normally it's on the basis of looking at a verse like this so either it's because of the hypocrisy of some members of the Muslim community that's on the one hand or it's because they feel that a lot of the modern day scholarship is quite archaic or because they believe that a book that allows you to beat a woman because you feared some arrogance from her is not a book that should be followed then you have those who haven't left the religion of Islam but when they're looking at this verse of the Holy Quran they make an interesting point they are normally termed as a group of feminist scholars and I think sometimes that term is given to them unfairly I think there are some men who have a very arrogant way of looking at women already sometimes the way their fathers viewed women or the way their religious scholar friends view women had an influence on them so when they see the likes of let's say Wadood and Keisha Ali Asma Said, Barlas, others when they see their interpretations and Chaudry who's written a whole book on this verse when they see their interpretations they begin to say oh this is typical feminist interpretation but even when you are translating the verse from the beginning English can never do justice to Arabic number two the translator may be a male with a male worldview where is this translator coming from? is he coming sincere to the text or is he coming from an angle where he wants to ensure that the hierarchical structure of thought within his society when he's translating is reflected in the way he wants the Quran to be translated we know very well even when you're studying history you have what's known as historiography as well and sometimes the way the person writes history their political or theological inclinations have an effect on the way they write history likewise when it comes to Tafsir likewise when it comes to translation of the Holy Quran sometimes your political or theological inclination or even the social milieu within which you grew up has an effect so at the beginning of your translation for example Hajj Muhammad you said men are in charge of women yes you interestingly didn't quote the Arabic no so no one's ever going to say men are in charge of women and that's the worldview many are brought up on that men are in charge of women whereas Qawama can easily also be translated as men are the maintainers of women that part of your obedience to God as a man is that you maintain your wife there's a lovely verse in the Holy Quran which before we go into this one allows you to understand what's happening in Arabian society at the time and this is fundamental no book emerges in a vacuum no of course I've got to look at the context absolutely you know when is this being revealed what is the mentality of the Arabs at the time and there's this one verse which I love in the Holy Quran which talks about your wife and says they are a clothing for you yes and a garment a garment for you and you are a garment for them it's very interesting that nobody ever looks at such verses to try and provide an understanding of what should be the worldview of how a man respects that equal that is his wife yes and so when the ayah says the ayah is saying they are a garment for you you are a garment for them meaning what does the garment do for us two things one a garment protects us yes you're protecting your wife she protects you you may be protecting your wife financially she may be protecting your honor that's right number two the garment beautifies you yes you're a form of beautification for her she's a form of beautification for you the Quran at this stage is taking this very arrogant Arab male right who finds it normal to beat their wives there's no discussions between them when there's an issue when I want to hit you I'll hit you I'll slap you not just slap you I'm ready to bury you because you're a female yeah when I'm looking at this verse I need to understand that the verse is being introduced to a society which finds it very normal to bury their daughters because they would say that their daughters have no use for them because their daughters will not help them on the battlefield yeah and their daughters may end up running with someone else from another tribe right or their daughters will not help them in the world of business of course all three of these got shattered on the day of Uhud it was a lady who was more brave than many of Muhammad's companions peace be upon him and his family and then you have when it came to business Sayed Akhadija proved all of them wrong and when it came to one's daughter marrying someone who may be an enemy Abu Sofyan's daughter married someone by the name of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon his family who turned out to be the best husband she could have ever dreamed of but anyway these Arab men there was nothing there whatsoever they taught them to remain patient right forgive your wife's mistake okay show compassion show empathy to these men the moment I suspect that there's something wrong in my marriage then it's normal for me that I could be able to hit her slap her beat her now the Quran what it's trying to do is slowly try and tell them listen step by step don't rush into this thing that I have to hit this lady okay violent yes so the ayah first begins by telling them that you have a duty and your duty is that you maintain your wife God has gifted you that you're able to maybe do certain jobs at that time that they cannot you're bringing in income it's obligatory on you that you look after them and that you protect them and that the good wife likewise yes is one who's obedient to her husband not because of the husband but rather obedient to a higher source a divine obedient to the Lord yes they maintain the honor of their household not revealing everything no quite true maintaining the honor of their household protecting the honor of that household the Quran was slowly trying to introduce and it's interesting that the Quran remains the only book that has a chapter called Nisa and the Quran is trying to introduce that these aren't cattle for you these aren't slaves of yours they have duties but you have duties they can make mistakes you can make mistakes if you fear an indecency from any of them those of your wives who you fear an indecency from it could happen there's a husband for example sees that there's a certain behavior from the wife that he doesn't necessarily approve of and this behavior has to be a behavior that goes against the codes of the religion not a behavior where as the curry always got too much salt in it or why is your bread too hard or why did you not say salam to my mother in that particular way that's not fearing an indecency from one's partner the Quran is being real excuse me in which sense the Quran is saying that it could happen in a marriage that you fear an indecency from someone from your partner when you fear this indecency you don't slap them straight away you don't hit them you don't kick them there are some who have this impression that the moment I feel that the wife has set something out of place then I should be able to slap her the moment I feel for example the wife questions something about the prophet Muhammad the moment I feel that my wife for example was speaking to a friend of mine I don't want to speak to them then the first resort for many of these Arab men would normally be what let me let me get the leather and belt her let me kick her because many of the Muslim men today in sadly some of the most primitive societies have brought back that jahiliyat so now what we have is the Quran is saying don't fear an indecency from those who those who you could see an indecency from talk to them softly and admonish them admonish in which way if I did something wrong for example and I you want to admonish me how would you admonish me if I did something wrong by grabbing me by the throat by choking me by kicking me by choking them by the throat if you look in the Quran Allah SWT said and the best invite towards the way of Allah she has done something wrong not even done something you fear that she may be heading towards doing something wrong so what should you do if you fear. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says, invite towards my way with wisdom and with a kind word. And talk in a way which can be seen as being better. If she's raised her voice and said something abusive, cursing, talk in a way which is better. For some of these Arab men, they found that difficult because normally they'd go to the third part of that verse and that's what I notice, that when people attack this verse in the Holy Quran, they straight away say, but your book allows wife beating. Okay, but let's start at the beginning. Yes, start at the beginning. When you're starting from the beginning, men and women, like in Christianity, a priest may speak to a husband or wife telling them these are your rights, these are your rights, these are your duties, these are your duties. But somewhere along the line, in your marriage, there may be a problem that comes up. When that problem comes up, don't just hit her, slap her, this is disgusting. This is not part of the teachings. First, admonish, sit with her and say that, look, that's a certain area that I'm not too happy with. Human beings, human being, we all slip up. We can all err. That lady who's your wife may err. And so if she does err, sit with her and talk with her in a manner which is befitting of the moral conduct that the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him and his family has set, let's say she doesn't listen. What then happens? Because it can happen that 95% of the marriages out there you have some of the most humble wives you can ever have because their parents brought them up wonderfully. But they may be going through a difficult spiritual period. It can happen. True. And the Quran says that you're fearing an indecency. You've had a word with her, but you see a few weeks later the same issue. Still the Quran says, violence, no way. Because the verse says what? What? What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? What are you afraid of? For example, now I'm sitting with my wife and she's done something out of turn, something indecent. Maybe she hasn't done, I just fear something. Some men go crazy over suspicion. Some will lash just on suspicion. Or paranoia and so on. Paranoia and so on. So at that moment when she is speaking, I speak to her in a soft way, then after that, Separation of the beds, some can see it in two ways. Either you got to take the sofa downstairs, I'm sleeping upstairs. As we have in our language today. Yeah. Or you lean to one side of the bed or you turn your face away in the bed. Right, right. As a sign that you're not really happy with what's happening. It doesn't literally mean It doesn't literally mean that a person has to leave the bedroom. And for example, sleep downstairs. No, it could mean, for example, that person goes to the other side of the bed. Most men don't mind.  Because the wives love to come and give a hug. And sometimes that wife looks for that attention as well. Yeah, sure. Where at that moment when she's yearning for that attention from you, she notices that attention is not coming, for example. When she notices that you're not even looking at her. Men at the best of times when the wife needs a bit of emotional chat and care is not there. Then when you're making it clear that listen, what you're doing, this indecency that I fear from you, I don't even want to look at you. Yeah, yeah, you don't give me that attention. At that moment, you'll find many will be like, you know what, I'm sorry. And we have so many wonderful Muslim women in our communities who are so patient with some of the most difficult husbands. But even when they do something which isn't wrong, it's just not what he likes. They're still willing to be soft hearted. But the Quran says this could be a second step or Arab who's used to lashing out or Arab who was used to burying the daughter alive. This could be a second step that you may consider. Then comes the controversy. Yes. Then what does the Quran say? Wadri Buhan. Right. Wadri Buhan brings a lot of issues because Wadri Buhan translated one second if we go back to English where you said, You said, men are in charge of women. Yes. We said, men are the maintainers of women. Likewise, Wadri Buhan, some said, Wadri Buhan means beat. Okay. There are some who have this paradigm that you don't look at the world of hadith. Right.  Beat them with what? There's this interesting explanation that many try and give. And that is, tap her. Okay. With like a feather touch or a mishwak. Mishwak, yes, yes. And then you begin to wonder what's happening there. What exactly does this mean? The most far-fetched opinion will be that mishwak tap is symbolic. Okay. That this relationship is nearly ending. Okay. Then you've got one extreme of scholars who actually believe that. No, no. You actually believe that? No, maybe the Quran was intending that you beat the wife. There are some who believe that. Right.  To be obedient. She doesn't care.  Doesn't care. She continues to do what you've told her. You don't want her to do. So she's blatantly going against what you're asking from her in your marriage. Yeah. Some said in that primitive society, in some primitive societies, if you say Arabia was a period of jaheliya ignorance, there are some primitive societies where the only way you are able to show the seriousness of this issue, marriage-wise, is to beat your wife. Now, do we accept this? That's still an important question. One extreme was saying miswak. Another was saying, well, you may have to beat.  Problem with that, it could become a moral paradigm for anyone to abuse. Yeah, sure. Okay, you could say that that was a primitive society. Which has happened, yeah. And that people can abuse that. Because there are some Muslim men who could turn around and say, well, you know what? It's there. And the hadith scholars say it's allowed. And let me be clear on something. Okay.  I think that after the Prophet Muhammad died, I think there were famous Muslim men who, if you read the books of hadith, have laid fingers on their wives. If not their wives on their daughters, but definitely on their wives. Right. Or on other people's wives. Now, I don't wanna mention their names. No, no, no. I don't wanna go into any area where people start saying, well, you know what? Don't bring up these people's names and so on. So then how do I look at this verse? Some said, Dharaba here, like any word in Arabic can have many different meanings. Some have found 13 meanings for Dharaba. Right. Normally when people talk about Dharab, it means hit, strike. Okay. It can also mean to separate. It can also mean to travel. I see. To go away from. Right. You know how you have some marriages where the husband sees that his wife may be doing something wrong. Has a word and say that, listen, this what you're doing is not something that I'm happy with. She's not listening. Then after that he separates the bed, meaning that he may not look at her when he goes to sleep, not listening. Then after that he says, listen, this marriage is really now in its last moments. Yeah. Let's travel away from each other. Right. And that period of separation, and some do it. They separate for six months, one year, to see if there's anything left in the relationship or not. Yeah. For a person to say that the only meaning of Dharab in Arabic is to strike or beat. It's not correct. It's like the word Mola. Right. The word Mola has over 20 meanings. And sometimes we need either Qareena muttasala or Qareena munfasala and al-mal-usul. There is either a context to the meaning within the sentence or separate from the sentence, which allows us to understand the usage of this. Now you have some ulama who say, Ahlul Bayt, a.s. are vital in our understanding of this verse. Yeah, absolutely. How? If the Prophet, peace be upon him, and his family is going through a rocky moment in his relationship, where there may be an accusation of indecency against one of his wives, as we saw, for example, in the Sura known as Nur, the Sura Light, there's an accusation of one of his wives, supposedly the communities rounded up and said that one of his wives has committed adultery. Adultery, yes. There's no ever evidence that the Prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon his family, hit or beat his wives. I remember coming across one tradition from one of the wives who tried to say that he struck me, but I don't take traditions from her. Other schools may see her as a reliable narrator. She doesn't really interest me in terms of who I take my narrations from. Okay. But in terms of the way he was with his wives, I'm sure you've researched the traditions. Yes, yes, yes. About how he says you treat your wives. If the Prophet, Muhammad, peace be upon him and his family, tells me, hit your wife, then he is the very embodiment of the ayah of the Quran. Don't you agree? Absolutely, absolutely. Because what are the Ahlul Bayt, Alaym Al Salam? And this is a fundamental point that I'd like to mention to all the viewers. When you see an ayah in the Quran, you're uncertain about its application. Is alcohol halal or haram? Are these types of relationships because of rape they are looked down upon or because of love? Are these things acceptable or acceptable? Always look at what Ahlul Bayt, Alaym Al Salam, have commented on the issue. Of course. I have found recently someone asked me, but alcohol specifically in the Quran, if you look at the ayahs, there is no ayah that uses the word haram. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I met someone else who recently said to me, in the Quran, there is no ayah that says, cover your hair. Right. Says, Likewise with this ayah, they say, let's look at what Ahlul Bayt have said because as the Prophet said, I have left behind for you two weighty things. Hold on to them, you will never go straight. The Quran and my Ahlul Bayt. Naturally. The Ahlul Bayt are the ones who explain to me alcohol, halal or haram. Yes, you're right. The ayah says, They say there's no word haram next to So therefore, maybe the Quran is saying, we recommend for you not to drink alcohol, for example. Or when the Quran says, Or do not pray while you're drunk. Or that, Who tells me then if alcohol is haram or halal? Who tells me if hijab, khimar refers to covering the head or not? Who tells me about Wadr Ibn Hanh does it refer to this one? And I'll add a disclaimer here. Not every single tradition even that has come to us from the Ahlul Bayt is necessarily to be taken. Some might be sent to Qiyyah. Yeah. Because if you disagree with the authorities of the time coming with problems, some even blatantly fabricated some of the hadith and attributed them to Imam Al-Baqr and Imam Al-Sadaq, alayhum salam. You read the traditions of people like Mughira and others who blatantly were involved in the wholesale fabrications that can be seen between the time of Imam al-Sadaq and Imam Al-Radaq. So now when we come to this, are there traditions from the Ahlul Bayt? What does the Ahlul Bayt say? Let's read out a few now. So with me here now, we have the Prophet once said, I am astonished at a man who beats his wife whereas it is he himself more than his wife who deserves a beating. I am astonished that's a man. A man who beats his wife. So that is obviously going against the interpretation. The interpretation of those who say Wanderable Hunna is to beat or to strike. Another one. One should never torture one's wife physically or otherwise because whoever does so has violated the norms set out by Allah and his messenger, said the Prophet.  This is an interesting narration.   Therefore, when I look at the lives of the Prophet peace be upon his family or I look at the lives of the Ahlul Bayt, Al-Salam, is there one member of the Ahlul Bayt, Al-Salam, who has ever been narrated to have slapped his wife? Now, some might say, but these are the Ahlul Bayt. All their wives are decent. All their wives were religious. Can you name any Imams of the Ahlul Bayt who are difficult wives? Imam Hassan. Imam Al-Hassan, Al-Salam, married to Juwda, the daughter of Al-Ash'ath bin Qais. Imam Al-Jawad, Al-Salam. Married to Umul Fad, the daughter of Al-Ma'mun. Imam Al-Baqir, Al-Salam was married to a lady who cursed Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, Al-Salam. Is there any tradition that says that the Ahlul Bayt slapped them? Beat them? Never. Hit them? All of these are the acts of people who are not followers of Ahlul Bayt, Al-Salam.  For people to look at that word and say, but you know this is just a primitive society. It's like those, they remind me of those who say when Adam and Eve had their sons, their sons married their sisters. Incest. But incest was only allowed for that time. Let's see. Yeah, hold on. What do you mean incest was only allowed for that time? Incest is either morally wrong and I think you could go to a non-Muslim out there and he can be able to tell you between the hus'ul and the qab'uh of something like incest. Yeah, truly. They'll say straight away this is qab'ih. There's not something to be described as hasa. And so likewise in this area, the problem is when we then do interpret wadribul hun with this, people say you're being apologetic. Yeah. They say that you'll be, it's not me being apologetic. I have a problem with Islam. If Islam as a religion promotes beating one's wife. Yeah. I have a problem. Yes. I have to be true to myself. I'm not following the religion because my parents forced me to. I'm not following the religion blindly. I'm not following the religion without questioning for in the Quran. Yes. Al-Khamri. Yes. Al-Maheeb. Yes. Al-Saa'a. Yes. Al-Ahila. They're asking questions because they want to reach a level of yaqeen when they're talking to this prophet. Yes. Likewise, I'm asking questions. My prophet, peace be upon his family, never laid a finger on any of their wives. No matter what. No matter what. They certainly had difficult wives. Yeah. Yeah. We've seen history. And two of them killed them. Yeah. But for a person to say that the Quran is that which sanctions this, we find that the Ahlul Bayt are the best example of what embodies the Quran. Others, if we were to look at the action of others, after the Prophet, peace be upon his family, died, I can show you traditions about others. Yes. Who hit their wives. Forget their wives. They were ready to hit other people's wives. Other people's wives. Yeah. Yeah, subhanAllah. Thank you, Dr. Seda. Viewers, we'll be going into a break. Do call to pose your questions to Dr. Seda Amal Nakshmani. Telephone number is 0203 515 019. WhatsApp also your questions. 07 939 917 163. Once again, WhatsApp. 07 939 917 163. Shala will be going for a short break and to do join us again very shortly. Salaamu Alaikum. Salaamu Alaikum and welcome back to tonight's topic on Imam Hussein TV. Wife beating and emotional abuse suffered by women. With me tonight, we have Dr. Sayyid Amal Nakshmani. Salaamu Alaikum. Alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah. Dr. Sayyid Amal Nakshmani, we have a interesting verse as it were, a surah as it were in the Holy Quran. The pleading woman, Surah Mujadillah. Now, what I'm curious to understand is how actually God views, you know, the position of a woman. But before we get to that, let's just read out the translation of the first verse as it were.  So we have a woman, a pleading woman, a wife who then makes a complaint to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. What is this exactly about? How does Allah view a woman in this position? Yeah, it's a fascinating title of the Holy Quran, you know, for Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to name a surah about a lady pleading to God about her ill treatment, her emotionally abusive marriage. Many people in my position talk about physical abuse. Many neglect how many women out there are emotionally abused in their marriages, where their husbands blackmail them, where their husbands in some ways torture them with their words, sometimes with their silence, sometimes with other family members, sometimes having the backing of the male scholarship in society that could oppress them. And you know, when you look at the titles of chapters of the Quran, it's interesting, some chapters are named after prophets, like Nooh, Ibrahim, the Holy Prophet, PCB upon his family. Some chapters of the Holy Quran are named after tribes, like for example, Bani Israel. Some chapters of the Holy Quran are named after positions which you reach spiritually, a mu'minun, mu'nafiqun, kafirun. Sure. This chapter is so unique, that God reveals a whole chapter in honor of this lady, Khawla, who pleaded to God to stop in one way or the other, or to listen to her pleading against the emotional abuse that her husband was showing towards her. Right. The first verse of this chapter highlights something unique. It's the only verse in the Holy Quran where God says, he's hearing three times, the all hearing. The Quran says, Allah hears the cry. Okay. Of the one who argues with you about the treatment of her husband and pleads to God, and God is the all hearing. This is wonderful because what God's showing many out there in their marriages today is if you're emotionally being abused, don't worry. I hear your call for help. Okay.  The people see him know how to have the formalities. They don't see him at home.  I hear when he oppresses you. I hear when he speaks arrogantly to you. I hear when he emotionally abuses you.   Now, what happened in this story? Yes. Husband, for example, comes home, wants something from his wife. She's not ready at that moment to offer him what he wants. Okay. They used to have this formula. They used to pronounce in Arabia, which I think verse two mentions. If you're able to read verse two for us. Yes, certainly. So those who pronounce the Zihar. Those who pronounce the Zihar. Yeah, I'm going to you to separate from their wives. The Zihar in Arabic, Zahar is back. Is back? You're back. I see. Is Zahar.  Arabian formula means that I've got no relations with you.  Right. And this guy would just leave the house. I came home. You didn't look after me the way I wanted you to look after me. Like some men today might come home. And if they notice that the wife just wants to have a conversation with you. You know what? I'm tired. I want to go out. Sometimes two days a week. And there's someone's daughter you've married. There's not a slave. There's not an animal sitting at home who's serving you. The Quran straight away revealed the chapter. Because when this lady came to tell the Prophet that is this fair? Yeah. That these men just come home. If they don't like what they're seeing at home, they just walk out. And they arrogantly tell me who's looking after the kids, looking after the house. That you know what you are to me?  Mother. There's a disrespect and an insult to her. Because you're shattering her confidence. Confidence. Yeah. You know there are some men. You know what Islam said? One of the greatest things to say to your wife is I love you. Yeah. One of the best things to do when you come back from a journey is to give her a gift. There are some men in our communities who can shatter their wife's confidence. Now if you want to say something as a man. Say for example, and if we're going to be very frank, you as a man might say to the Mrs. that listen, you've put on a bit of weight. Now this is a very sensitive area. Sure. Because this could cause an earthquake. Yeah. Now there's two ways to look at this.  And that's, you know, that is emotional abuse. Some even find that worse than the physical. Yeah. Because at that moment, there's no tend innocence. No. No. Now what's happening there for a surat al-Mujadala is Allah has said, قَدْ سَمِعَ اللَّهُ قَوْلَ اللَّةِ تُجَادِلُكَ فِي زَوْجِهَ وَ تَشْتَكِهِ There's a shakwa in Urdu. A complaint. You know, remember Iqbal's famous poetry. The complaint and the reply to the complaint and so on. A shakwa, تَشْتَكِي, اشْتِكِي. All of these are different derivatives of a person who has a complaint. Can you imagine at that time if their husbands just walked away from the house? Am I divorced or am I separated? I've got no one to stand up for me and sometimes Muslim men are very clever that when they've married a girl, some marry girls from back home, for example. They know their parents aren't there, they oppress them more. Right. They abuse them more, emotionally more. And look, a slip of the tongue happens. No one is my soul. No, no. But when a person sits back and reflects, then at that moment an apology is warranted. Yes. Emotional abuse, sadly, in our communities, when you've seen that this lady is working her socks off, looked after the kids, taking them to school, looked after them with homework, provides you with the best of meals when none of these are obligatory on her. Men are very good at saying what's their rights. I have a right that you have to ask my permission before you leave. She doesn't need to do all of this. Why don't she list all of these for you? Yes, yes. Men straightaway jump on that. Sure. That you cannot leave the house without my permission. Okay, buddy, if you're gonna talk about what rights you have over her, acknowledge that amount of things that she's let go of which she doesn't have to do. Sure, sure.  Yeah. In the books of Islamic law, such a formula requires a kafara to be paid. Okay. We'll come back to that very quickly. Say no, we just got some questions coming in now via WhatsApp. Salaam, question from Syed. What do women do when they go for help to community leaders regarding an unjust husband who hasn't fulfilled a single right of his? Community leaders, yeah. Community leaders sometimes are the worst to give you advice. Yeah, yeah. Single right of his and has taken her rights and wealth and is now defaming her for being an ill character. Yeah, community leaders, yeah. Do you see a high rise of gay men in our community? Well, community leaders chat absolute, in some cases, can chat absolute nonsense and other cases can give you wonderful wisdom. It varies. I don't know why people go to Maulana's when it comes to marital issues. I think people should go to men of wisdom who don't necessarily wear the religious garb. I think we have people who've been married for 34 years. They're good people to gain advice from. Right. This idea that you go to Maulana's, as if Maulana's are the very embodiment of hikma. Some Maulana's are the embodiment of ilm, they're knowledgeable, but wisdom-wise, leave a lot to be desired. So I think that some of our community leaders are not the healthiest people in terms of the religious garb, in terms of the ones to give you advice when you're going through a bad time. But hey, people see the religious dress, they think everyone underneath it has a pure heart. Yeah, sure. Okay, next question is, you know, it's clear that Ahlul Bayt embodies the Quran, but non-Muslim would still ask, does this mean that the Quran and the ayah is not correct or authentic? How would you tackle that? That's an excellent question. The fact is that for a person to perform an interpretation of the Holy Quran, there are a number of things which are required. The knowledge of pre-Islamic Arabian culture, pre-Islamic Arabian poetry, Arabic grammar. Okay. All of these are fundamental. I need to know these words in the Quran. How were they used? How were the poets using them? How were the Arabs using them? Okay, I see. There is no way that you can take a text. Whether it's in Latin, Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic, all of these you need to understand what are the different usages of that word. Yeah, sure. Let me give you an example. Okay. How sometimes English doesn't do justice to Arabic. The word for blind in Arabic, if you ask many people, when you say someone is blind, the word normally in Arabic is A'ma. Okay. They see someone who's blind, they'll say A'ma. Okay. But when Jesus cures the blind, the blind are referred to as A'kma. In English, when you translate A'kma and A'ma, both are blind. Right. Someone who reads the Quran will think blind, blind, they don't read the Arabic. If they read the Arabic, A'ma, it's blind. A'kma is blind. Yeah. So someone says, what's the difference? A'kma is only eyesight on the physical level. I see. A'ma can be your physically blind or blind in your heart. So now, when a person comes and tells me, is the Prophet controlling the Quran, is the Quran, no, no. I have to look at that word. The context. Give you another two. Qista, Adla. Adala, faqsipu. Sometimes when you see the translation in English, just, just, just, just. But we know there are different levels of justice. There's Adala, there's Insaaf, there's Qista. So what I'm saying is also when it comes to words like dharaba, these are many meanings. It's mola, many meanings. We have to look at the context as it were. A person has to delve deep into understanding the different usages. Okay, okay. Thank you, Shukr and Flatt. Two questions here now. And it's not a rude question. We're obviously mature adults here, but I'll still read it out. You mentioned beating the wife with the leather is not permitted. What about if she enjoys it? So she enjoys it, there's no issue. She enjoys it, there's no problem there. As-salamu alaykum, sayyid-a-maru. Very good show. What about the wives who hit their husbands? There are some bad ladies who hit their husbands. I don't think there are many wives who hit their husbands for no reason. In some cases, there is an extreme arrogance from some husbands, extreme rudeness. You know, a wife, if you are showing the best akhlaq, then there are some who won't show the best akhlaq and they remain loyal for life. Let alone if you're showing the best akhlaq, therefore if your wife has reached a level where she's hitting you, then maybe there needs to be a reflection on some of your behavior and some of your mannerisms. Because these are rare cases and when they happen that it's sad and it's not, of course, the best behavior, but you as a man have to reflect on what made this lady reach this stage. Now, if that lady maybe has certain issues with her health, then a person should seek to go to sit with those who can help. But in some cases, the men have to look at themselves in the mirror. Sure, okay. Salaam, Sayyed, Ahmad Ali. Kudos on this much needed series, my question. And this is a question from a sister from Sydney, Australia. It's quite a long question. If a girl is forcefully married, then emotionally or financially abused in the marriage for over a decade and wants a way out. What course of action and rights does Islam provide the woman with? Given she has no support network and the abuse is not tangible. So that's the first part. The husband has made it clear that he won't let her go and she is the one who has to initiate separation if she ever has the guts to. From a religious standpoint, does the mother have to give up her children in the possibility of a divorce as losing children is what holds her back? Also, does the man have any financial responsibilities upon separation or divorce? Thank you in advance. So there's quite a few issues there. If you want me to repeat. Well, we have our show coming, inshallah, next Tuesday is our show. Not next Monday, next Tuesday. Our show will be looking at divorce. But suffice for me to say that I think divorce has been made culturally difficult. Islamically, it's never been that difficult. Culture has made divorce difficult. Right, right. In some cases, innocently, because you don't want to make it easy for people just to break up and then regret it. But in many cases, oppressively, the mo'allaqa and the rates of the mo'allaqa, the one who's been made to hang on because of the arrogance of the husband or the partner and not get a divorce and then have mo'allanas who stubbornly side with a husband who's been a menace in a relationship. And when I read some of the traditions about divorce and the time of the Prophet, it was as simple as I want to divorce. Why? I'm not attracted to him. Okay. And inshallah, next week, we'll look at the fact that even a woman having the authority to have a divorce, which is always frowned upon and said, no, you can't. Your husband has to initiate. Even that is open to question. And the reality is there are many out there who are forced to stay in marriages either because of dads who were caring about their rep more than their daughter's life or because of mo'allanas who sided with the husbands. Or because of a culture that did not follow the religion the way the religion said things should be made easy and not of hardship. Okay. But we'll discuss further. Yeah, sure. We'll take one more question and then we'll revert back to your points about verse one, so Mojad Allah. I got married to a guy from back home. I chose him myself. He was in London when I met him. He's in the UK now. Never worked a single day. And I did not mind providing for him. Situation is he got extremely physically violent over the tiniest thing. EGR asked for 10 minutes to get ready. Emotional, mental, financial abuse is what I went through. Do I have a right to divorce him even if he isn't given me a divorce? Thank you. A person can go to the rep of their marjah. Say you are a moqallid of Aitullah Sistani. May Allah lengthen his life. Insha'Allah. You can go to the one who he has appointed as the rep. And that person will make a phone call. He doesn't even need to meet the person, your husband. He will ask him, are you fulfilling your obligations financially or not? Right. The moment the person says he's not. Because either he is and he has to prove it. Yeah. If he says no, then automatically divorce happens. You don't even need anybody else involved. Right. Okay. So this is one of the ways and more will be discussed on the different ways. But I do plead with some of our brothers and sisters out there. If I'm talking to the fathers, please, your daughter who's been raised in London the whole of her life, don't just tell her, listen, we have a cousin in... India or Pakistan. India or Pakistan or wherever. Yeah, yeah. Where you're going to have to marry them because of so-and-so. Let's sometimes, the upbringing mentalities are complete. Absolutely. And some girls are being oppressed with these marriages. Yeah, sure. Okay, so just to go back, you were quite beautifully describing and elaborating on verse one on the pleading woman. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so this lady, Khawla, firstly, it was easy for her to go and visit the Prophet, peace be upon his family, and tell him, secondly, that I'm being treated badly. Right. And thirdly, the Quran was now showing God's actually part of your development all Muslims. Okay. God hasn't just created the earth and is watching what's happening. Because now imagine, the chapter is revealed. And I remember that Omar bin Al-Khattab, when he was Caliph, one day, Khawla looks at him and she says to him, she doesn't call him by the name Omar. And she says to him, make sure that you are just now that you have become Khalifa. And so Omar's companion looks bewildered because he's thinking, Omar bin Al-Khattab normally, no woman can get away with talking like that to him without being on the receiving end of something or another. And at that moment he says to him, how do you let her get away with it? And he was like, how can I reply back to someone who Allah revealed the chapter of the Quran in honor of her? Come late. So even years later, that lady who Sura was revealed because of her pleading cry about the emotional abuse that she suffered, you found that the likes of Omar were in awe of how they couldn't reply back to her because she was the first to really speak out for women who were emotionally abused. In our societies today, there are men who tell their wives, for example, that because you said something wrong, I'm going to lock you in the house today. I'm going to take your phone away. I'm going to take your credit cards away. I'm going to force you to be at home with the kids. This has nothing to do with Islam. This is rubbish culture or parents who are rubbish upbringing, instilling it in their sons. And then there are those husbands out there, they're sitting with their wife, she's given birth. Biologically, psychologically, emotionally, after the wife has given birth, she may not look like what she looked like before. There is a period to regain that figure. And you'll find the husband will mock. He'll blatantly in front of the television say, look how beautiful this actress is, you're not like. It's disgraceful. It's disgraceful. There are some who turn around and say, you know what, you're getting fatter now. You're someone I don't want to be seen in public with. There are some husbands. They don't like the look of their wives, so they don't actually take them out in public. And the wife begins to sense this as well. And you think that he's Brad Pitt. This is the irony.  You look at him and you're thinking, this one's the one who's ashamed. But as we saw with the Prophet in the Ahl al-Bayt, and especially Imam Ali and Faqon al-Zaqra al-Mustanah, there's a wonderful marriage there. It's romantic. It's love. It's cooperation. It's patience. It's a unique, unique relationship. She's young. She has four kids. Never do we hear him say to her, look at your bodily change. Because Imam al-Hassan, Imam al-Hussain, say to Zaynab, andum kultum, one's after the other, and then muhsin. Yes. So Faqon al-Zaqra has five kids within nine years.  Never.  Or Imam Ali al-Hassan ever look elsewhere in that period post-pregnancy. You know, they tried to make an accusation that Imam Ali was interested in Abu Jahl's daughter, Joyriya, to try and destroy the wonderful emotional balance that him and Faqon al-Zaqra have. Yes. And you know that hadith, Faqon al-Zaqra, whoever angers, angers me, they say it was revealed because Imam Ali angered Faqon al-Zaqra. When he wanted to marry Joyriya, the daughter of Abu Jahl. So what we find with the Ahl al-Bayt Aaym al-Salam, there's these really tender moments. Imam Ali, when he describes Faqon al-Zaqra, Aayh al-Salam, those last moments, he shows an emotional edge to him which many Muslim husbands don't have. A soft-heartedness which is unique, a flower came from heaven, went to heaven, left its fragrance in my mind. He even describes when he's burying her and after he's buried her, these are difficult nights for me. Yeah, yeah. That's what a Muslim man was. Ali, son of Abu Talib, was the chivalrous human being who didn't find it embarrassing to praise his wife, to show love to his wife, to be soft with his wife. He didn't find it as something which lowered from his character. He was proud to actually extol his wife's achievements. And I hope this returns to the Muslim community. Insha'Allah, insha'Allah. We have one key question, Sayyidna. My question to you is that what would you say about those husbands who are so intelligent and sharp that they do not treat their wives badly but have the art of brainwashing them on a daily basis so that she cuts ties from all her family members, making her realize that her parents are evil. He even convinces her to stop the kids from talking to their grandparents. He also convinces her that it's okay to abuse them, i.e. her parents, publicly, because her parents deserve that and that the wife is so sure and patient with that because she thinks Allah has said that a woman who obeys her husband in everything is a woman who will get married straight away. So essentially emotional black...  Where the husband will say, listen, if I hear that you're calling your mom, you leave. Yeah. Or if I hear that you're going to your parents' house, you leave. And she's going to her parents' house. What's the issue? She obeys you on areas where you're asking her to obey Allah and Salat al-Rahm is an area of obedience to Allah. And if you do find that your in-laws are problematic, cutting off the ties with them is not solving you and your wife's marital issues. On the contrary, a dua which is beautiful, which Imam Zayn al-Aabideen, alayhi salam, used to say, wa abdilni min boghzati ahli shana'an al-mahabla, wa min aqoq daw al-arhaam al-mabarra, wa min khidlan al-akrabin al-nosra, daw al-arhaam al-akrabin, ahli shana'an, all of these are the relatives who can show animosity and hate towards you. Imam Zayn al-Aabideen, alayhi salam, says, don't continue that animosity. Okay. Pray to Allah, change their animosity into love. This is unique, Ahlul Bayt. Ahlul Bayt, don't take this issue. Imam Al-Jawa'ah didn't tell his wife, Amal Fadal, I never want to see you talk to your dad again. Imam Al-Hassan didn't tell Al-Jawa'ah the daughter of Al-Ash'ath, sister of Muhammad, I don't want to see you interact. Ahlul Bayt, say, you've got your free will. Of course, if her parents are asking her to curse Allah, curse the Prophet, you know, stay away from Ahlul Bayt, that's a different story. Yes, yes. But I think that the Hadith of Imam Zayn al-Aabideen, alayhi salam, wa abdilni min maqdati ahli shana'an al-mahabba, wa min aqoo ghdaw al-arham al-mabarra, wa min khadlan al-akrabin al-nosra, is that dua all of us should recite. Right. Ya Allah, change the animosity of my relatives into love for me. Change those who are causing trouble for my relatives into a sort of unison with me. Change their hate into support. Build that in the character. Okay, okay, alhamdulillah. We'll take one more question before, inshallah, resuming back to the topic. We'll come to the part where I'm curious to find out if the Prophet had to face any difficulties. We'll come to that very shortly. I'll take the next question. Some women are over-emotional at specific times of the month and would see the slightest comment, maybe a type of emotional abuse. Is there anything in a religion that allows a couple to separate just for that period of time? It is all, you know, let's act as adults here. Yeah, you've got to be tolerant. I'm emotional at this time of month, so no, no, no. Biological changes happen. Yeah, sure.  So what, we might as well have in a contract that every month you're going to have five days off. Yeah, that's the case. Then even I can have moments where I'm going to get emotional. So you have to have five days off from me. It's a higher level we should seek to. Yeah, sure. That shouldn't be used as an excuse. MPS, MBS, MSB, whatever the initials are these days. Okay, fine. So back to the topic now, say it now. The holy prophet, peace be upon him and that. I don't believe that Islam face difficulties as it were. You've alluded to a few imams that went through drugs. But the holy prophet. Well, the holy prophet, peace be upon his family, like prophet Nuh and prophet Lot before him, faced major difficulties with his wives, Nabi Nuh and Nabi Lot and the holy prophet, peace be upon him and his family. One surah in the Quran shows how much difficulties they faced with their wives, but shows they didn't lash out with them, except by seeking to keep the door of Toba open for them. Some husbands, the wife makes a mistake, punch, hit, kick, lash out, but the door of Toba doesn't close. Aisha and Hafsa gave the holy prophet, peace be upon his family, some of his most difficult moments. No Muslim can deny that. Of course, many Muslims will turn around and say, but they are humans, they can earn. They're absolutely right. But if you look at surah 66 verse one, verse three, verse four, verse five. Yā yuhann Nabi lima tuharrimā hallallāhu lāk. Tabtaqim ar-dhātah az-wājik. Oh Prophet of God, why do you make unlawful for yourself what Allah has made lawful for you? Of your wives. You wanna please your wives? Then wa'idah sarran nabi yuhilā b'āli az-wājih hadithah. The prophet told his wife a secret, she went and divulged to the other wife. We said that the good wife, they have a protection of what's in the unseen. They don't come out with the secrets of the household, whereas Hafsa would blatantly go and tell Aisha, if anyone out there is listening to this, surah 66 verse three, go and read the tafsir of surah 66 verse three, four and five. And what's interesting about those three, which we'll discuss even further next week, is how the Prophet, peace be upon his family, reaches a stage where Allah tells him, if you wanna divorce, divorce. Okay, okay. And next week, when we discuss the different areas of divorce, there is a belief that the Prophet, peace be upon his family, divorced. Some say he didn't, some say he did with one lady who had just married a month before he died. The option was there because he knew he was going to die and the option was there for her to be divorced. So it wasn't a problematic relationship. It was just, you know, a release. Yeah. Now, what you have here is the Aisha and Hafsa give major problems to the Prophet, peace be upon his family. And I can show this by the way, in surah al-Ahzab as well from verse 28 onwards, but in surah al-Tahreem. But the Quran says, in tatoobaa, Right. ila Allahi faqad saghat qulobo kamaa, in tatoobaa, if both of you repent to Allah, then your hearts are inclined. Their bad behavior towards the Prophet, their rudeness towards the Prophet, never hit, never slapped, didn't even emotionally blackmail. The door of tatooba is open for you. Yeah. And I think we need to open that door a bit more in our communities. Yes, yes, yes. Your wife's done something wrong. How many of you turn around and said, you know what, Allah's all forgiving. There's no harm discussing a sensitive issue.  No, we discuss it. Yeah, sure. Discuss it. This is what I feel about this issue. You can give me your opinion. I come back and forth. And sometimes there are some ladies who may not give in at that moment. Because sometimes, you know, all of us don't want to lose an argument or a debate or a point. But deep down, they know, you know, he's going all right, but I'm not gonna give in. Sure. And with you, you've just got to make it clear that, listen, I've seen certain things in life and maybe that's why I'm saying this thing. But everything has to be said with Akhla. Yes. The way you'd want your sister to be spoken to in her marriage. Yes.  Isn't it? Of course. When I ask anyone out there, if they hear their sister's being hurt, emotionally or physically, it kills them, it breaks their heart. So how do you find it normal to do that someone else? Yes, absolutely. Say now, we have one more question. Asalaamu alaikum, Sayyed. I have a friend whose husband does not allow her to work, study and even go out on a daily basis. He does not abuse her physically but emotionally. What's to hook him if she starts going out behind his back? Thank you. Well, the right of the husband is that she has to ask his permission before leaving the house. Now, when we say that, a lot of people abuse this. You can't leave without it. No. And then there's a lot of people who live it wonderfully. The husband and wife are such a good relationship. Yeah. That he trusts her wholeheartedly. But in this situation, if the husband is saying that I prefer for you not to be working, I've even read traditions about the husband having the right to choose his wife's friends. Now, some might look at that again and they might say that this is something unacceptable. I don't think these rights given to the husbands, if they're used in a balanced way, are actually negatives. I think in some cases, some marriages were saved when someone said something. Yes. But I also agree that there are some wives out there who are unfairly treated in the sense that they might want to go and study at a college, for example, or at a university and the husband is adamant that they can't because the culture says it's not good. The religion has no problem. And in the country, the increase in gaining knowledge, there are some wonderful courses offered out there. Yes. So these are all related to the communication and that marriage. Yeah, of course. Of course, okay. How about a wife complaining about going to Majlis quite often in Muharram? 68 days and suffer. Well, Muharram suffer 68 days. As a single earning person, I spend my nine hours at a job and then I have to go to the imam bargah quite frequently these days. How should this be handled, this complaint understanding? There's nothing in Islam that says you have to go to 68 days of Majlis. You take it upon yourself. No. The most recommended would be the night or the day of the martyrdom of that particular personality. So in reality, those who say two months and eight days, that's culture, not religion. It's a wonderful culture. Okay, okay. But if it's causing harm to your marriage, Ahlulbayt do not want something that causes harm to your marriage. Right. You both have duties and rights to be observed.  Ahlulbayt did not want that. No. Ahlulbayt say, for example, Ashura, Ona Aba Abdullah. Imam Zayn al-Abdil-Shahad is a couple of weeks later, honor him. The Ariba'een honor it. The Prophet and Imam al-Hassan honor them. Yes. But you don't have to go 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10 Majlis in a row. Have a balance. Yes. I'm amazed by some people out there. They have a wonderful love for other people. They attend 68 days in a row of Majlis. No hajjab. It's phenomenal. It really is phenomenal. How they reach that. Now that's their personal journey. I got nothing to do with it, but how, how do you attend two months and eight days of Majlis and still reach a conclusion that Zaynab's hajjab's not worth wearing yet? Unless you're going because there's a great fashion show of clothing to be paraded. Unless you're going because it's the social aspect. Unless you're going because it's a family gathering and if I'm not there, it looks rude. Then don't blame the two months and eight days. You're going with intentions which have got nothing to do with Aba Abdullah because at the end of those two months and eight days, if you truly understood the message of the 10th of Muharram, then on Aida Zahra, your hair shouldn't be showing when you're walking on the street. Yeah. And if it is showing, then you have to begin to reflect two months and eight days. Where is it taking you? Cultural growth and prestige and stature? Or is it taking you to Zaynab and the daughters of Rasulullah? Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. I think we may have time for just one more question. I'm not sure. Producers may be able to give us a cigarette in terms of the countdown we've got left. So, unfortunately, we have run out of time. But inshallah, we can then continue next week, inshallah, from Dr. Seyed Amar Naqshwani and from myself, Muhammad Ali. Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Next Tuesday, we'll be the next show, inshallah. Sallallahu alayhi wa sallam.


Okay, we're back here in the cube on the floor. We're here in Cloud City. Thanks to everyone in the studio. We're here. I'm bringing all the action from the floor. Daniel Royce is about to welcome. We've got a great remote interview. I'll say it's a physical event, but it's virtual. So it's a hybrid event. And what people are coming in remotely. We've got Mark Collins, Senior Vice President, Commercial Product Management, Zeppertel, Mark, thanks for coming on. You head up to Product Management. You're responsible for the product vision. Calling in or remoting in from Ireland. Great to see you. I wish you were here. Thank you, John. I wish I was there too. We had a great chat yesterday with Michael, the CEO and the company, Public Cloud is a big driver of what you guys are part of. It's a seed change for some of the world that's on obvious shift has been going on for a long time. In Telco, it's new. What's the story? Give us the vision of the product. So Zeppertel are actually a provider of multiple products within the Telco space. And one of our visions is very much about bringing those products into a marketplace capability that Telcos can start engaging and interacting with them much more simply than they would have been with their vendor suppliers in the past. What's the difference between cloud on-premises and in the public cloud for Telcos? What's the psychology right now of Telco? Most people have lifted and shifted and re-platformed with the cloud in the enterprise side. Certainly that's been going on for many, many years. Now you're seeing people refactor their business on the cloud and get really knit new advantages, not just cost optimization and benefits with the re-platforming or lift and shift, but they got new capabilities. Where's the Telco adoption on this spectrum of re-platforming and refactoring with public cloud? Early, they're toe in the water, are they jumping in? What's happening? I think very, very early. I've worked in the Telco space for the last 20 years and certainly for the last five, all of the bugs has been about moving to cloud-native solutions. But a lot of the Telco vendors that I think are still very much looking at how they supply solutions and why the cloud are here and on-premise deployments. They haven't changed that mentality of how they actually provide solutions for the cloud. Okay, we got DR, just walk in. Sorry, interrupt, letting the folks know that we've got the big entourage here in Cloud City. Daniel Royson is the CEO of Telco DR and the CEO of Totoge. When you start to see the Telco DR being Digital Revolution or Danielle Royson, however you want to look at the DR part of it, but really a game changer in the Telco industry. Put a real dent in the universe here with Cloud City, Danielle Royson, just a little entourage there and a cheer for her coming back to her home base here at MWC in Cloud City, where the cube is and where the main stage is. Mark, sorry to interrupt you there, continue. So, are they there? Are they jumping in? Is there fear? Are they building? Are they just still operating? We just had a little segment discussing that there's been being a builder versus an operator, like the confluence of war time and peace time. I actually think there's a lot of fear. Like I think if you look at the way Telcos look at cloud, one of the biggest blockers that I think a lot of them face is that they have this perception that their network and what they provide as a solution to customers is a stable business model. Like there's been very little impetus from the outside to force them into replacing some of their outdated core technologies and they have some very, very legacy views on how they model TCO and the future costs to their business, which, unless they change those attitudes, some of what they can benefit from the public cloud is going to be lost on them. You mentioned legacy, one of the things I want to get your thoughts on quickly is that the notion of it's always been a customized game. I call it the OT world, operating technology versus IT, information technology, different mindsets. One's very IP driven, right software, open source now drives that, but you have a lot of legacy and they build custom solutions when the world seems to be spinning towards open and standardized. What's your take? Yeah, I see that as a huge challenge when you look at what Telcos want from a software perspective, like they want products but they still have this huge expectation that their specific needs are going to be addressed, right? And the challenge I see there is that when you talk about customization, most of the time that drives a divergence away from what a product is to a bespoke solution which creates a huge number of issues for service providers when it comes to how they do upgrades in the future or for that matter what they ultimately have to pay the vendors for the professional services to build those customizations. Talk about the Telcos considerations for interfaces, how they should handle interfaces and other standards because it's an API economy, we know that but now as things start to get more interconnected integration is going to be a big thing, especially with the edge becoming much more of a competitive and dynamic and people care about the edge because it's consumer, it's education, it's healthcare, it's not just some device on a network, it's actually societal impact, social change, real value. Yeah, now at 100% degree, like you could probably credit Telcos for what's been the way of the normal for a network in the last 20 years with regards to all of the standardization that's happened in bodies like 3GPP, but I guess in the IT world or in the domain of how you actually deliver capabilities to your end customer or even the experiences that you've developed for your consumers, a lot of that has been bespoke development, software float together, built on premise and not necessarily taking advantage of the openness that you see on the round and on the network side of things. Mark, I want to ask you why I have you here, I know we've got a couple of minutes left, but I want to get your thoughts on this, since February 2019, since Mobile World Congress had an event, so in dog years or internet years, whatever metaphor you want to use, it's been a long time and a lot of time has passed. What's your assessment of where the industry is? I think all you have to do is look back at the last year and a half and see the sea change that has happened in a huge amount of industries around how they reacted to the ability to deliver new capabilities very quickly on the back of what happened to us with COVID. And I think telcos in a lot of cases have been at the forefront of providing network experiences with people as they move to working from home, but they haven't necessarily had the same agility or the same ability to make change when it comes to the customer experiences and the products and services that they build on top. And I think they need to take advantage of what everybody else has been able to do with COVID-19 in the last year. Yeah, and I think infrastructure as code changes everything. DevOps, which is a cloud term, is development and operations. They have to work together. Now it's DevSecOps, so I think the same thing is going to happen at telcos and I'm a big fan and bullish on the telcos business model because if you embrace the change, if you ride that wave and right, you're not going to be driftwood and that is all about keeping the change going and keeping it real relative to the value because telcos saved us during COVID. So the operational aspect of the network didn't crash. We had some bad Zoom meetings here and there, but for the most part, people lived and they survived. So you've got to give props to that and that's the purpose, now it's the next level. Edge applications have to come on board fast and we need more software. What's your, how does that happen in your mind? I think a lot of that has to come from vendors like ourselves who start providing a different way and a different approach for how operators can consume the software that they purchase, right? Like if they keep working with the same vendors that they have today, they'll spec their requirements, they'll write down what they need and they'll ask somebody to build it for them and that'll take a long time. By the time they've actually got it built, it'll probably be the wrong thing or life will have moved on. If you look at the pace of change that we've seen in the last year with COVID and everything else. And I think a cloud specialist vendor like ourselves can come and provide a huge amount of value to an operator when we're building a solution that many operators can consume within our marketplace of offers. Awesome, Mark, great to have you on. 30 seconds left, put a plug in for Zeffertel. What are you working on? You're hiring, you've got 30 seconds, go. We're hiring, we're growing, we're presenting a number of different solutions in mobile world. Congress looking at both customer experience and IoT in a number of different areas where we're heavily involved. Absolutely, come seek out the people from Zeffertel that are there and look at the demos and meet with the guys on the ground. They've got a huge amount of information to share. Awesome, Mark Collins, Senior Vice President, Commercial Product Management, really changing the game, making service providers get the value from the network and making it easy for having meaningful change that's positive impact, changing the world and really making it happen. Of course, let's send it back to the studio, Adam and the team. Thank you.


Welcome back, it is Friday, that means FNA Friday for new animators, and today I want to start a new series about Demo Reels, it's gonna be about tips and tricks, do's and don'ts and examples and all that good stuff. Alright, so there's a lot to talk about about Demo Reels and this is going to be a multi-part series. Generally, you want to tailor your reel towards the company that you're sending your reel to, or nowadays it's not VHS tape you're sending, but it's online, a link, you know what I mean. So if it's a game company, it's game specific stuff, VFX company, VFX specific stuff, feature animation, TV, so all those different groups of animation, if you will, they have different styles and different demands. So if you do all kinds of digital stunt doubles and camera work and creature stuff and it's all photo reel and you send that to Disney, not very useful. So once you've chosen the company that you want to gun for, think about the content and then like I said, tailor your content towards that company. And I'm doing this FNA right now because I'm doing another Demo Reels class for Animation Mentor which I also did last semester, so all those ideas are still fresh in my head and plus I got notes. But generally you want each shot to kind of represent a different skill, but that I mean, if you do a really good weight assignment, then why have another weight assignment later on in the reel? So why repeat yourself? So generally I will look at something where you show weight. You want to showcase body mechanics and weight, weight shifts, lifting something, pushing. So something that really shows the grasp of animation principles in terms of portraying different type of weights. At least that to me, that's the minimum. You show good quality, but it's all weighty stuff and that doesn't have to be a big creature walking around. It's could be again, a box lift or a character lifting someone or pulling on something, just something that's weighty, which segues into a good full body mechanics shot, which then of course you can combine those two. It could be something lifting weight and that obviously in a wide shot, you see the full character and it shows weight and the full body mechanics and weight shifts and all that good stuff. So anything that I mentioned, of course you can combine things and make it more like a shot versus just an exercise highlighting one single skill or one single aspect that you want to show. But anyway, I will look at weight, I will look at full body mechanics and then I will look at performance and performance. I will break up into pantomime and then lip sync. Now pantomime again, could be full body and then it gets closer to camera or however you want to do it. If you want to cut and just do a close up, but I would do something where it's emoting without the help of audio and then you have lip sync and then lip sync, I would look at potentially two different shots, something that's a bit more extreme. So it doesn't have to be all super sad and all super happy, but if you just do multiple shots that always show the character with the same emotion, then again, it doesn't show enough variety. And speaking of variety, I would showcase female, male, kids, old people, bigger, skinnier and also creatures and not creatures in terms of photo wheel and your rotoscope, like a horse gallop or something, but something that's kind of more like Zootopia or the dog and Coco or just there are many, many movies nowadays that are showcasing humans and creatures, but I would definitely not neglect creatures and only have humans on there. But understand it's tricky to get a good cartoony creature rig that's free online or even paid. So I'm going through my rig list and I'm posting things in animation before I'm trying to find something really good in terms of creature for feature animation that you could use for your reel. And if I find something, obviously I'll do something here and then do a post and let people know. Now, if you know something comment, please let other people know. If you find a good rig for creature, cartoony animation, including that good facial stuff, but circling back again, variety is key. So I would show if you do a wide shot, nice, good body mechanics with weight. So you can right away show I can do animation properly with all the right polish and everything moves with the right principles, applied and good weight. But on top of that, you do want to show performance. And that's why it said pantomime and lip syncs. So you can act just through body poses and pantomime, Mr. Bean style, chaplain or whatever you want to add there. And lip sync where you have the audio that kind of defines your timing and also the mood. But of course, you can see all my acting analysis clips where you can kind of take that and maybe change it to make it a bit more personal, a bit more original. And all these points to me warrant a different FNA. So something that's just about body mechanics, something that's just about performance and so on and so on. So different, different examples. But I want to just quickly say that within your reel, you got to tailor it towards the company you're sending it to and show different skill sets within each shot. Obviously, you can combine different skill sets into one awesome monster shot and then have multiple of those. But again, a variety is key. So you don't want to do performance, performance, performance where it's always the same thing, what's kind of a close up and kind of the same emotion. You just kind of repeating yourself and you're not showing off enough different skill sets. That being said, whatever you do, your strongest shot has to be first. So when someone looks at your reel, they're going to go through that first shot. And if it's not up to snuff, they're going to go and then click it off. Now, I'm exaggerating, this might be worst case scenario, but still, you want to look at really the best shot up front. So it shows right away, this is what I can do. Stay with this reel and look at the rest. And to me, this is across the board. So VFX feature, games, TV, whatever you have, the strongest shot has to be first. You don't want people to kind of wait and go, is this going to be okay? Oh yeah, this was okay. You don't want to risk that people click off your reel or just stop playing because they don't have the patience or the time to wait for the good shot. So first shot has to be fantastic. And the last shot has to be really, really good. And the middle part has to be really good. Obviously everything has to be really good. It's better to have a short reel, that's awesome. Then a longer padded out reel with kind of okay shots in the middle, it was, you're going to get kind of judged on the worst shot on your reel. But going back to what I said, this is going to be the focus of this part one FNA. The first shot has to be awesome. And one of those examples that I showed to my class is a reel by Stefan Trumache. He's an animator at Pixar. And a long time ago, he was at the Academy and his reel is still online. And I show it in every class. And even though it's old and dated, it still holds up really well. And all the things that I point out for demo reels, do's and don'ts are all in this reel. So I'm going to scrub through the reel so you can see kind of quickly what's going on. I will have a link in the description to his reel. But that is the reel in short. Now I'm going to talk mainly about this for a shot. But one of the things you want to do when you have a reel, you do want to scrub and kind of see visually what is going on. So here are the things that I will point out. A lot of people do a waist up acting shot. Usually it's a character in an empty scene and that's kind of the framing and there's nothing there and they can just do their performance. If you watch my channel, you know another massive fan of this. At the same time, if you watch my channel, you know that there are many examples that contradict what I said.  Now, why does this work for him? I think at the very beginning, this is a really, really good shot that shows so many different body mechanics and pantomime and just so many complexities I'll talk about just in a second. But because of this, this shot right away shows I can animate. And then after that, it's okay. And even he actually have the complexity of someone turning around. It's a 180, he has a walk towards camera. You don't see the weight shifts, but still in this shot, he already showed what he can do. So now he can concentrate on different performances. But then going back, there's still this. And again, I'll talk about this later on. But then you have something that's full body, full body with creature. And then back to pantomime, waist up and lip sync, waist up with two characters and with a small interaction there. So as a whole, really good. And this has secondary action. This has reacting to something that's, you know, you can have something that's outside. It could be a sound effect or whatever or another character in the scene, but it's not just a singular character. And what I like about this one is that you have a pretty real depiction of creature behavior there, but I like that he has still a human character. There's a connection there. She prepares things and has that little human connection at the end. She likes her horse. So lots of little things that I really like in this reel. Same with this one, using the space and the mechanics. So I think this reel covers a lot of different things. But let me go back to this first shot and let me play it and tell you why I like this so much.  All right. Now, the first thing that happens is this.  There's no thought process. There's no pantomime, but right away within the first seconds he shows off, I can animate a character moving from A to B, but with these complexities, the set or the set piece is angled and thin. Because one of the things that people do in many, many shots is that the surface is always flat. And if again, if you watch some of my previous clips, you know that I like a set that could be a hillside, in this case, a tree trunk, whatever you have, because the uneven ground will force asymmetry, potentially in your character, depending on how uneven the ground is, but it gives you a variety and how the character will move from A to B if it's branches or jungle stuff they can go underneath. It just kind of forces you to think about how will the character move and all that good stuff that I like. So in this shot, right off the bat, the character walks from A to B on a surface that goes up and it's not very wide, it's not very safe, which then again forces the character to think about balance, which then goes into this. This is moment of off balance and then adjustment. So because of that, there's already change in timing. It's not just a cycle of someone walking up from A to B, a pause, so there's contrast in timing and just visual poses. So a little hop up there into this. And this to me is kind of a smaller version of having a conflict in your shot. I know I was a big fan of a conflict. I was like when the character is exposed to a problem, because then the character has to make a choice to fix that problem and those choices reveal character. So one of the kind of mean examples that I have but it kind of illustrates the points to be exaggerated. You have the puppy that's on fire, you have the computer that's on fire, which one are you gonna save? The computer. And then people either go, oh, or yeah, whatever it is, but it always kind of causes some sort of reaction. But I think that to me is a really good thing in your shot when your character is presented with a problem or conflict and the character has to make a choice and the choice reveals character. And again, it doesn't have to be, and I say again because of previous clips, your character doesn't always have to be a good person.  And I think that should be something you could focus on in your reels. It's not just always good people. So going back to the shot, that the tree trunk is not safe and wide and uneven presents a potential problem for the kid and he has that with slightly off balance and has to rebalance himself and then continues on. So it's not a mental challenge, not something where he has to fight or a dialogue where he fights verbally with someone, but it's just a small thing that shows that he can fix something and it also forces the character in you with your animation to give it some more contrast. I'm just a big fan of this. Then after that, he switches to actual pantomime. So you have full body mechanics and then thought process. I love it at a little moment. Again, change in timing after all the big movement and the bigger moves here and with the timing, you have him slow down, the shot slows down and you can see he thinks about that, thinks about where he has to step and is ready to jump. So after purely mechanical things from a body mechanics point of view, there's more now a thought process, which to me is really important in your shots. If you just have movement, it could be potentially boring. And again, if you watch my things or you're one of my students, you've heard this, I'm not a massive fan of characters dancing or doing martial arts or that type of finding. Not because it's not cool, but a lot of times it's just movement. That being said, again, if you follow yourself that I retweet on Twitter, there are many, many awesome shots where people just fight and do martial arts. But I usually like to stuff where the style is a bit more pushed. There's interest in timing and the poses are pushed. So if it's just kind of something where you look at reference and you kind of replicate the reference, it's just not that interesting. To me, if someone would be dancing, but then maybe halfway through the pants fall down and the character has to decide well, I'm gonna continue this dance, that to me is adding conflict. And then it's interesting to me because I wanna know how the character fixes that situation. And all of this is kind of couched within a dance move. But I understand if this is completely subjective. But going back, thought process to me is key. You wanna show that the character is thinking and is alive. So after this, he decides and jumps and holds on to this and falls into this swampy water. What I like about this too is that you have a hard surface element. So the way your character walks on this, barefoot on something hard like this is going to be different than when he jumps here. So there's a different gravity aspect to this. Hanging on to this is gonna change how he moves here. And then as he falls into this, this is again a different location, different outside environment that will change how he moves, the timing and how he goes from A to B. Now going back again, like I said, barefoot on something wooden, something a bit harder. And you can expand on this and what if it's, I don't know, the whole set is somewhere snowy and you have someone in ski boots or something walking across snow. And if for those that have walked in snow, you know that little step and then go down and step and go down. Frozen is a good example of all the snowy stuff and all the influences of snow on the character with wind and all that good stuff. So many examples are out there. But that's something, again, I wanna highlight is that, well, if you have your character, think about what are they wearing and what are they walking on? And maybe you can change that and change that to your advantage to push either comedy or just to push the poses or whatever you wanna do. Now on top of that, if you look at this, you have set pieces here, set pieces here. I think the composition is really nice. You have nice elements there with a bit of a gradient there and it's not crazily rendered. You don't really need a render in your scenes. Of course it looks better. But here's my thing. And again, this might be subjective, but I just wanna put it out there. If you see a shot, that looks really good in terms of rendering. It's got the lighting and the textures and all that good stuff. But the animation is kinda, it's not quite there. My thought and from what I hear from other people is also, well, why did you spend time lighting this? Why didn't you spend this time animating and fixing it and finishing it? Many people might roll their eyes and go, well, maybe someone else did the render for me or maybe I didn't know that the animation was not good enough and I just wanted to make it look pretty. I understand, there are many, many reasons. I'm just saying. All the time should be spent into making your animation fantastic because that's what you're applying for is an animation position. Not lighting and texturing or modeling and all that. Yes, all of that will help elevate the shot potentially visually and make it potentially also more professionally looking. I know all those pros and cons. I'm just saying, I think this works because it's a nice presentation, but it's not too far out there. It doesn't distract from anything. The focus is still animation, but it's better than a character in its default outfit or gray on a gray background. The other thing that I like is when you look at the shot, look at the camera work. Follows the character. It's very subtle to the end here. And I also like that it goes down with the character seeing somewhere on the water stuff and going up. Now, but what I like about this is that the camera work is actually really nice because you have just subtle movement to give it some life, but it doesn't distract from the shot. And when the character jumps here, you have this moment. The character breaks frame. You don't want your camera to move ahead of the character unless there's a very specific choice or story point or wherever. Obviously, there's always an exception, but usually the camera person does not know what an actor, actress or creature, whatever it's going to do. So I like this. It doesn't have the character too far out or we miss something where we're confused and the camera still catches up and has that end. With a real expression at the end and again a different type of movement because he is in a different kind of environment. So you have water, then you have air, but also air holding onto something got that nice little foam with a nice pose in there. Then you have the hard surface elements. Then you have the pantomime. Then going back into just full body mechanics with a little bit of a contrasting move because of this setup of where he walks on too. All in all, I just love the shot. And to me, that as your first shot, I look at this and go, this is really good. There's so many elements that are really good and thought out. Then again, Stefan, if you watch this, you can comment say, I never thought about any of this or I thought about all of this and more. So let me know if I'm projecting things into this. I never know. This is how I take the shot. This is what I take from the shot and that's what I try to tell my students. Again, I might be wrong or not, but this is kind of what I'm taking out of the shot. And it's a really strong beginning piece because like I said, it shows body mechanics right away, full body. It shows thought process and different complexities and even a bit of camera work. So after this, I think you can do all those performance shots where it's waist up because why do another full body shot? Unless of course it's something a bit more weighty. So maybe this type of composition but the character is pulling, pushing or lifting something. I think that's totally valid. So there you go. Your first shot has to be awesome. And I'm gonna show different examples in future FNAs. So this is only part one. I have different reels, different types of shots when it comes to EFX, cartoony and different do's and don'ts and tips and tricks to really round out a long list of this is what you should be focusing on. And again, I'll try to cover EFX and games as well as future animation. So hopefully this will be a good series that covers as much as possible, but I will obviously miss many things. So if you know something as you watch this and you go away, he missed this. Comments, the comment section is open so anything you wanna add, feel free. I think everybody will profit from that and learn from it. And I will close this part one with that.  Thank you so much. If you liked it, you can hit the like button. If you have not subscribed yet, subscribe and hit the bell button because I do upload almost every day except the weekend. So if you want all notifications, hit that bell button.  But that's it from me. Thank you for watching and I will see you next week.


I tell you about this sorcery I knew, couldn't stop talking about how useful they are as creatures. Because you can brew potions from their blood? No, because by eating rotting corpses they prevent epidemics. Did he know they eat the living as well? No, really upset him too. His theory collapsed. War is not exactly going our way. We have a side. The northern realms. The Nauvids realm don't you mean? Tameria and Edrn are no more. The Nauvids are no more. The Nauvids are no more. Tameria and Edrn are no more. The Nauvids are no more. Tameria and Edrn are no more. The Nauvids are no more. The Nauvids are no more. Believe that. You gotta believe something. That's what keeps us going. Ever tell you about this sorcery I knew? Couldn't stop talking about how useful they are as creatures. Because you can brew potions from their blood? No, because by eating rotting corpses they prevent epidemics. Hmph. Did he know they eat the living as well? No. Really upset him too. His theory collapsed. Of course, not exactly going our way. We have a side. The Northern realms. We're out of its realms, don't you mean? Tameria and Eddern are no more. We're out of its pledge to restore the Old Borders. As soon as he wins the war. Believe that. Gotta believe something, as what keeps us going. Not so fast, Roche. Ever tell you about this sorcery I knew? Couldn't stop talking about how useful they are as creatures. Because you can brew potions from their blood? No. Because by eating rotting corpses, they prevent epidemics. Hm. Did he know they eat the living as well? No. Really upset him too. His theory collapsed. More is not exactly going our way. We have a side. The Northern realms. We're out of its realms, don't you mean? Tameria and Eddern are no more. We're out of its pledge to restore the Old Borders. As soon as he wins the war. Believe that. Gotta believe something, as what keeps us going. That's it, Roche. Slow now.


Hi there, welcome to my YouTube channel. This is Daniel Roestel here, and I want to do a quick video on the subject of reviews and do I do reviews of products now I'm doing this really because I have been receiving or have received in the last few weeks a number of contacts from vendors companies and their PR representatives and asking me to check out their platform or Something of that nature and I think that's probably because even though this is a really small YouTube channel I have talked about some pretty obscure niche topics such as Linux backups and things of that nature that I guess there aren't a ton of people Active in reviewing and screencasting So given that I do plan on putting a lot of effort into this YouTube channel over the next few months Perhaps longer than that. I thought I'd put together just a couple of quick guidelines for PR professionals and brands and Just giving you guys some tips or some well some info on what it might be interested in and what it would not be interested in So number one is to say this is an unmonetized YouTube channel currently when I'm making this video I would be happy to share subscriber counts to those who need it currently to private very small time of recording this but I don't want to Even say the number because then I'm going to date this video by the upload date So I'd be happy to share that with you and if it's if I decide to show it you'll be able to see the subscriber count Now in terms of what I'm interested in so because I'm creating this as a hobby project I kind of disregarded the classical advice of YouTube to niche down and so there's videos here about local eateries in Jerusalem and Linux backups and fail over internet But the thing that I'm really interested in and most Approaches from vendors so far have been about is technology. So in terms of what tech I have received a couple of not so great approaches over the last few years both for writing reviews and for video reviews And those are kind of people that I just don't think have spent two minutes looking through The videos here or anything I've written Just tech that I am not interested in so let me just explain what it is I am interested in and it's a few different areas. So number one backups as specifically anything related to backups for Linux Has been a long-standing area of interest for me Linux in Ubuntu is something I'm very interested in Professionally, I'm a marketer or more marketing communications consultancy is what I'm currently doing So more tech is actually something that I am interested in more tech and sales tech So there's been some videos here about CRMs and marketing automation and that's actually stuff I am interested in believe it or not. So if you just a few different tech areas sort of put together there and I've written about Telecoms is quite interesting and fail over and VOIP solutions So there are a few Verticals that I am interested in and just things that I'm not I don't use iPhone. I don't use iOS I've never used them. I've no intention of using them So something like an iPhone app would not be an iPhone app for Creating, you know, altered screenshots like would not be interesting to me What one other thing and you could say this is almost like a gripe as much as a sort of guidance request. I have received some Very generic every Trump PR people that just weren't prepared to put it like they were like We need would you like to review this and then just left it at that. So if you are going to approach me I may be busy and not have time to respond or it may not be interesting and therefore I won't respond But the two reasons that might happen or one It's not relevant to the kind of tech I'm interested in be I've had cases where they just haven't put in any effort. There's been no sort of like serious attempt So if it's something like a SaaS platform or your startup or whatever just at a minimum, please If I'm interested just like, you know offered to set up an account on the back end Because again, if it's if assuming I'm on monetize for a while, I don't have a ton of time So it's just appreciated if there is some effort. I think it's definitely a two-way dance between people Spending using their spare time to record videos and vendors reaching out to people who are Interested in doing that. So that's what I would say. So those are my sort of if you'd like review guidelines now in terms of how to Contact info and all of that good stuff. So let me just quickly bring across my screen over here and I would direct people to the about tab of this YouTube channel so there is a I do have like most youtubers a email it listed there and you can see what it currently is YouTube inquiries at Daniel Rose Hill But please check that page because I just changed that address and there's a chance I'll be changing it again in the future Final thing to say is that I have just set up a PO box for my business. I used to have one Forgot to update it. So if it's something like a physical product, I have received hardware before From vendors. So definitely something I would consider doing again So that is the I'll either put this put that at PO box in the description here or if not Send me an email and I will send you back the PO box address there Hope those guidelines were helpful and thank you for your interest in the YouTube channel